From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 1 02:26:20 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:26:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0510311059n5d83ad93u94cf1775724e926b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200510300620.j9U6K5e04458@tick.javien.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051031092934.02b00860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <8d71341e0510311059n5d83ad93u94cf1775724e926b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051031204311.071e1cc0@unreasonable.com> Natasha asked: >Mike's list cannot be an Exi-Freedom because that would be an >infringement on ExI's name. Can you verify? and Russell Wallace replied: >It isn't, it's extro-freedom. The list *was* called exi-freedom, and was renamed to extro-freedom two years ago. At which occasion, Mike posted to that group: >Hey all, this change became necessary due to a polite request by Max >More that we not use the term "ExI", claiming a trademarked right to >that term. The new name for the group is "extro-freedom", which is >not much of a change, but enough to avoid any legal issues. I certainly welcome peaceable relations and courtesy within our community but neither Max nor Extropy Institute had or have any legally enforceable rights to "ExI". The reasons are many, but you can sanity-check this with a simple trademark search -- http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=login&p_lang=english&p_d=trmk Greg doesn't specialize in IP law, but he probably knows enough anyway to opine. *My* read is that the only way you could stop someone from using ExI in the name of a mailing list would be to make yourself a $cientology-grade pest until they or their list host gave in to make you go away. -- David. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 1 02:52:29 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:52:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051031092934.02b00860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <200511010252.jA12qxe17773@tick.javien.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha Vita-More ... Avant, Mike runs a libertarian-oriented Exi-freedom list, where heated political debate is the coin of the realm.? Mike's list cannot be an Exi-Freedom because that would be an infringement on ExI's name.? Can you verify?? Natasha Vita-More I googled and learned that Mike's site name was changed from exi-freedom at yahoo.com to extro-freedom at yahoo.com. I tried to get to that but it came up as page cannot be displayed. My understanding is the I in ExI is for Institute, with which Mike is not associated as far as I know. I did find this: http://intlib.blogspot.com/ spike From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 1 02:58:51 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:58:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] robugs In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0510311059n5d83ad93u94cf1775724e926b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200511010259.jA12xve18528@tick.javien.com> If this pans out like the robot races, we can forget privacy henceforth: DARPA solicits proposals for insect-sized nano air vehicle program: Industry is being asked to take cues from the makeup of fluttering insects and hummingbirds, for a new Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency program seeking to field a small unmanned aerial vehicle that could be used to breach interiors to transmit data without being detected. In an Oct. 25 solicitation, posted on the Federal Business Opportunities Web site, DARPA announced it is soliciting proposals for a Nano Air Vehicle (NAV) program, that would produce a "very small, very lightweight" UAV. The agency said it envisions the NAV system to be based on conventional, as well as non-conventional air vehicle designs. More specifically, DARPA said the "wingspan" of the vehicle should be smaller than 3 inches, and the platform should weigh less than 10 grams and be able to travel three to seven meters per second. (Inside the Army) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Tue Nov 1 03:08:10 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:08:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] robugs In-Reply-To: <200511010259.jA12xve18528@tick.javien.com> References: <200511010259.jA12xve18528@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4366DC1A.30100@goldenfuture.net> Nahhhh... You just need to have your nano-swarm privacy 'bots upgraded with the latest anti-intrusion software. Joseph spike wrote: > If this pans out like the robot races, we can forget privacy henceforth: > > DARPA solicits proposals for insect-sized nano air vehicle program: > Industry is being asked to take cues from the makeup of fluttering > insects and hummingbirds, for a new Defense Advanced Research Projects > Agency program seeking to field a small unmanned aerial vehicle that > could be used to breach interiors to transmit data without being > detected. In an Oct. 25 solicitation, posted on the Federal Business > Opportunities Web site, DARPA announced it is soliciting proposals for > a Nano Air Vehicle (NAV) program, that would produce a ?very small, > very lightweight? UAV. The agency said it envisions the NAV system to > be based on conventional, as well as non-conventional air vehicle > designs. More specifically, DARPA said the ?wingspan? of the vehicle > should be smaller than 3 inches, and the platform should weigh less > than 10 grams and be able to travel three to seven meters per second. > (Inside the Army) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 1 03:46:51 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:46:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <200511010252.jA12qxe17773@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051031092934.02b00860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <200511010252.jA12qxe17773@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051031224147.0705a008@unreasonable.com> Spike wrote: >I googled and learned that Mike's site name was changed from >exi-freedom at yahoo.com to extro-freedom at yahoo.com. I tried to get to >that but it came up as page cannot be displayed. A sensible browser response, since xxx at yyy is an email address, not a URL. The extro-freedom mailing list can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extro-freedom/ >All Extropy, All the Time, til the Singularity. No posting limits, >no censorship outside of limiting fraudulent statements and personal >attacks (by the judgement of the ownership and management), no >topics off-limits, no political correctness. > >NOTE: This list is not operated by or approved by the Extropy >Institute. They are too politically correct for such a list. -- David. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 1 05:09:03 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:09:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] cool, pluto has three moons In-Reply-To: <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <200511010509.jA159Ge30726@tick.javien.com> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051031_pluto_moons.html From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 1 05:24:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:24:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <200511010524.jA15One31876@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brian Atkins > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty > > BillK wrote: > > > > So our magic machines will have to support a non-working population. > > How? Everybody on Social Security? > > > > No. Rather than everyone a worker for someone else... > > Why moan about having to work for some other factory owner, or losing your > job > to a robot, when you may be able to take advantage of rapidly increasing > technological-capability-per-buck to eventually own your own automated > hardware > or software that would allow you to operate your own company. > ... > > The time of complaining "I can't start a business because of..." is > ending... Brian Atkins Whoooooohoooo, I get so turned on with this kind of talk. He's absolutely right you know. I know of folks who have made a living out of nothing, merely buying antique motorcycles, taking them apart and selling the pieces on eBay. New parts cannot be had in most cases, or if so they cost a fortune. Guys that still have the old bikes need the parts. No particular expertise is needed, a decent small biz can grow out of a hobby. The pay isn't great in most cases, but higher than minimum wage, and doesn't require a "will work for food" sign. The internet has created new opportunities all over the place. One need not be a young person to jump on them. Capitalism, my friends, is the answer to poverty. Compare poor people in capitalistic nations with elsewhere. Notice the poor people in New Orleans. They looked pretty well fed, did they not? Competition breeds excellence. It doesn't make losers, everyone wins. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 1 05:36:59 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:36:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051031224147.0705a008@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <200511010537.jA15bwe00571@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of David Lubkin > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:47 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents > > Spike wrote: > > >I googled and learned that Mike's site name was changed from > >exi-freedom at yahoo.com to extro-freedom at yahoo.com. I tried to get to > >that but it came up as page cannot be displayed. > > A sensible browser response, since xxx at yyy is an email address, not a > URL. The extro-freedom mailing list can be found at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extro-freedom/ > ... > -- David. Hey Im a math geek, not a computer guy. Otherwise I would be rich. {8^D spike From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 06:15:13 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:15:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <200511010524.jA15One31876@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Whoooooohoooo, I get so turned on with this kind of > talk. Yeah, me too. But I'm seriously suspicious. > He's absolutely right you know. "Absolutely'? Strong wording that. True believer stuff. Tread carefully. While the world is awash in opportunity, there are problems. I'll list three. Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to train people to be economically savvy, to recognize the abundance of opportunity and to make it work for them. In the old days a son or daughter would be at their father or mother's side and learn the necessary life skills. Our culture has no plan -- our education system is an unfocused corrupted pile of crap -- for preparing people to be economically competent. When people succeed, they do so IN SPITE OF the culture's failure to do its duty and prepare them. Almost without exception the preparation for success comes from the family, from the individual realizing what he/she needs to do, or from blind luck. And the family influence is so crucial a factor, that economic incompetence (from which comes poverty) is virtually an inherited familial legacy. I wonder whether people see this, because to me it seems that successful people who know "how to get there from here" do it naturally, like breathing, without thinking and without realizing that it's something you need to know how to do. And unsuccessful people, the chronically indigent, are paralyzed by the absolute certainty that there IS NO WAY OUT, > I know of folks who > have made a living out of nothing, merely buying > antique motorcycles, taking them apart and selling the pieces on eBay. New parts cannot be had in most cases, or if so they cost a fortune. Guys that still have the old bikes need the parts. > > No particular expertise is needed, a decent small > biz can grow out of a hobby. The pay isn't great in > most cases, but higher than minimum wage, and doesn't > require a "will work for food" sign. The internet has created new opportunities all over the place. One need not be a young person to jump on them. > > Capitalism, my friends, is the answer to poverty. > Compare poor people in capitalistic nations with elsewhere. Notice the poor people in New Orleans. They looked pretty well fed, did they not? Competition breeds excellence. > It doesn't make losers, everyone wins. > > spike __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 06:19:38 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <200511010524.jA15One31876@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051101061938.21370.qmail@web60012.mail.yahoo.com> Please excuse, my finger slipped and I hit that key, whatever it is, that just sends out the email right out there, when I'm not finished yet. So now I'm gonna go back -- I hadn't even saved a first draft yet -- get the incomplete message, and continue. Thanks, Jeff Davis __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 07:34:18 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:34:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty Message-ID: <20051101073418.81204.qmail@web60017.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Whoooooohoooo, I get so turned on with this kind of > talk. Yeah, me too. But I'm seriously suspicious. > He's absolutely right you know. "Absolutely'? Strong wording that. True believer stuff. Tread carefully. While the world is awash in opportunity, there are problems. I'll list three. Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to train people to be economically savvy, to recognize the abundance of opportunity and to make it work for them. In the old days a son or daughter would be at their father or mother's side and learn the necessary life skills. Our culture has no plan -- our education system is an unfocused corrupted pile of crap -- for preparing people to be economically competent. When people succeed, they do so IN SPITE OF the culture's failure to do its duty and prepare them. Almost without exception the preparation for success comes from the family, from the individual realizing what he/she needs to do, or from blind luck. And family influence is so crucial a factor, that economic incompetence (from which comes poverty) is virtually an inherited familial legacy. I wonder whether people see this, because to me it seems that successful people who know "how to get there from here" do it naturally, like breathing, without thinking and without realizing that it's something you need to know how to do. And unsuccessful people, the chronically indigent, are paralyzed by the absolute certainty that there IS NO WAY OUT, **********here's where I left off******** **********so I'll continue********** nowhere in their experience is any success or training for success or any hint that success is possible ***FOR THEM***. Second, the economic world is very dynamic, constantly changing. The successful enterprise of yesterday may be a dead end today, and today's success may fade to unviabilty at any moment. Third, humans are despotic creatures. Given the least little chance, they will steal, cheat, or rig the system. To the legions of the corrupt (which is to say, potentially, all who are human), honest work is for suckers. This ancient problem is today alive and well and strappingly robust and penetrates to the very core of all things human. Most pointedly, the wealthy use their wealth to buy the government, which then makes rules to help them get wealthier at the expense of those who don't have their resources,... to buy the government. > I know of folks who > have made a living out of nothing, merely buying > antique motorcycles, taking them apart and selling the pieces on eBay. New parts cannot be had in most cases, or if so they cost a fortune. Guys that still have the old bikes need the parts. > > No particular expertise is needed, a decent small > biz can grow out of a hobby. The pay isn't great in > most cases, but higher than minimum wage, and doesn't > require a "will work for food" sign. The internet has created new opportunities all over the place. One need not be a young person to jump on them. > > Capitalism, my friends, is the answer to poverty. I absolutely agree,... except that capitalism has a dark side -- a side that caters to human despotism. Concentrations of wealth and power become a feedback loop of psychotic addiction, until megalomania and unbridled corruption turn the level playing field into a corpse-littered battlefield. This can be a commercial -- ie business is war -- battlefield with corpses in the form of the shattered lives of ruthlessly exploited workers, or a literal battlefield with literal corpses. Is this not clearly the record of history? The world of Johnny Rocco. (From the movie Key Largo, with Humphrey Bogart and Edward G. Robinson) A world of mafiosi who always want 'more' but who can never get enough. > Compare poor people in capitalistic nations with > elsewhere. Notice the poor people in New Orleans. > They looked pretty well fed, did they not? Shame on you, spike. I love you like a brother, but there is way more to life than a full belly. "...What is a man, If his chief good and market of his time Be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Sure he that made us with such large discourse, Looking before and after, gave us not That capability and godlike reason To fust in us unus'd." > Competition breeds excellence. No honest man can compete with a mafiosi, without either being killed or becoming a mafiosi. > It doesn't make losers, everyone wins. If you have a system that protects the little guy from the depredations of the wealth-addicted despot, and is robustly armored against the unrelenting assault of the mafiosi in all of us, yes. But when the mafiosi take over, everyone loses. Best, Jeff Davis "No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the sources of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." - P. J. O'Rourke __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 07:37:02 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:37:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty Message-ID: <20051101073702.86631.qmail@web60021.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Whoooooohoooo, I get so turned on with this kind of > talk. Yeah, me too. But I'm seriously suspicious. > He's absolutely right you know. "Absolutely'? Strong wording that. True believer stuff. Tread carefully. While the world is awash in opportunity, there are problems. I'll list three. Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to train people to be economically savvy, to recognize the abundance of opportunity and to make it work for them. In the old days a son or daughter would be at their father or mother's side and learn the necessary life skills. Our culture has no plan -- our education system is an unfocused corrupted pile of crap -- for preparing people to be economically competent. When people succeed, they do so IN SPITE OF the culture's failure to do its duty and prepare them. Almost without exception the preparation for success comes from the family, from the individual realizing what he/she needs to do, or from blind luck. And family influence is so crucial a factor, that economic incompetence (from which comes poverty) is virtually an inherited familial legacy. I wonder whether people see this, because to me it seems that successful people who know "how to get there from here" do it naturally, like breathing, without thinking and without realizing that it's something you need to know how to do. And unsuccessful people, the chronically indigent, are paralyzed by the absolute certainty that there IS NO WAY OUT, **********here's where I left off******** **********so I'll continue********** nowhere in their experience is any success or training for success or any hint that success is possible ***FOR THEM***. Second, the economic world is very dynamic, constantly changing. The successful enterprise of yesterday may be a dead end today, and today's success may fade to unviabilty at any moment. Third, humans are despotic creatures. Given the least little chance, they will steal, cheat, or rig the system. To the legions of the corrupt (which is to say, potentially, all who are human), honest work is for suckers. This ancient problem is today alive and well and strappingly robust and penetrates to the very core of all things human. Most pointedly, the wealthy use their wealth to buy the government, which then makes rules to help them get wealthier at the expense of those who don't have their resources,... to buy the government. > I know of folks who > have made a living out of nothing, merely buying > antique motorcycles, taking them apart and selling the pieces on eBay. New parts cannot be had in most cases, or if so they cost a fortune. Guys that still have the old bikes need the parts. > > No particular expertise is needed, a decent small > biz can grow out of a hobby. The pay isn't great in > most cases, but higher than minimum wage, and doesn't > require a "will work for food" sign. The internet has created new opportunities all over the place. One need not be a young person to jump on them. > > Capitalism, my friends, is the answer to poverty. I absolutely agree,... except that capitalism has a dark side -- a side that caters to human despotism. Concentrations of wealth and power become a feedback loop of psychotic addiction, until megalomania and unbridled corruption turn the level playing field into a corpse-littered battlefield. This can be a commercial -- ie business is war -- battlefield with corpses in the form of the shattered lives of ruthlessly exploited workers, or a literal battlefield with literal corpses. Is this not clearly the record of history? The world of Johnny Rocco. (From the movie Key Largo, with Humphrey Bogart and Edward G. Robinson) A world of mafiosi who always want 'more' but who can never get enough. > Compare poor people in capitalistic nations with > elsewhere. Notice the poor people in New Orleans. > They looked pretty well fed, did they not? Shame on you, spike. I love you like a brother, but there is way more to life than a full belly. "...What is a man, If his chief good and market of his time Be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Sure he that made us with such large discourse, Looking before and after, gave us not That capability and godlike reason To fust in us unus'd." > Competition breeds excellence. No honest man can compete with a mafiosi, without either being killed or becoming a mafiosi. > It doesn't make losers, everyone wins. If you have a system that protects the little guy from the depredations of the wealth-addicted despot, and is robustly armored against the unrelenting assault of the mafiosi in all of us, yes. But when the mafiosi take over, everyone loses. Best, Jeff Davis "No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the sources of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." - P. J. O'Rourke __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Nov 1 08:23:11 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:23:11 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty References: <20051101073702.86631.qmail@web60021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <032b01c5debd$7f7fbbf0$8998e03c@homepc> Jeff Davis wrote: > Third, humans are despotic creatures. Given the least > little chance, they will steal, cheat, or rig the > system. Saw this article supporting your thesis today: "Sad truth: we're a bunch of cheats" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17097227%255E2702,00.html "AT least 50 per cent of people will cheat on tests if they think they can get away with it. A research report found most people were deterred from cheating only by a fear of getting caught, and almost everyone would cheat if the stakes were high enough." ----- Brett Paatsch [If I find something optimistic and upbeat relating to extropy I must remember to post that too. That stuff seems harder to find at present though, dunno if its contemporay reality or just *my* particular view of it that is gloomy. For others sake, I hope its the second. Spike said recently - we aren't in the dark ages, well that necessarily true from one standpoint, but damn, it can seem like it sometimes if one looks about a bit. This isn't meant to be an insult but I am not sure I know anyone that is more than fleetingly happy at present that is not also something of a dimwit. ] From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 09:47:17 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:47:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Always On - The Techno Sapiens Are Coming Message-ID: <470a3c520511010147l61d217ecv9ac5f5a45d926a93@mail.gmail.com> Always On - The Techno Sapiens Are Coming - The promise and peril of nanotechnology invite a closer look at its ethical implications. The author Dr. C. Christopher Hook, MD, quotes the conference proceedings on "Converging Technologies for Improving Human Performance" as seminal documents for government sponsorship of nanotechnology, biotechnology, information technology, and cognitive science/cybernetics to enhance human beings. Though Dr. Hook demonstrates a good understanding of the horizons opened by recent advances in NBIC: " *Many scholars are anticipating cyborg and nanotech enhancements as means of forestalling aging or even pursuing immortality. The possibilities belong mostly in the realm of science fiction right now, but they seem less and less improbable as the years go by *", he has a quite negative attitude. Referring to the debate on using technology "beyond therapy" for human enhancement, Dr. Hook writes: "*My hope is that those involved in this research will heed the wisdom of the report of the president's Council on Bioethics released last October, which examines the ethical and social meanings of using biotechnologies for purposes "beyond therapy." It is a statement appropriately skeptical of transhumanist and scientific utopianism *". My comment: I do not heed the wisdom of this report, which seems to me more like a statement inappropriately skeptical of progress, science and human values. We have been using technology to enhance our bodies for centuries. Reading glasses were one of the first examples, followed by dental implants, orthopedic prostheses, and countless other aids that have improved the quality of life of billions. Direct neural interfacing with computer systems, the ultimate step toward "seamless" interfacing by direct brain implants to which Dr. Hook refers, will be just one more step on the same road leading to better bodies, better minds, and a better life . As Dr. Hook says, such tools will move beyond therapy into augmentation, or enhancement, of "normal" individuals. As a humanist I affirm human values and think that whatever can improve the quality of life of people, without decreasing the quality of life of other people, is good and worth pursuing. As a transhumanist, I am in favor of using technology to improve our lives by overcoming the limitations of our bodies and minds. We do not wish humans to "*go gently into that good night*", and we do not think this will happen. On the contrary, we see technology enabled human enhancement as one more evolutionary step for our species. Humans will remain humans, but with vastly improved capabilities. I do not consider my frail body, short-lived and vulnerable to horrible diseases, as a defining feature of my human identity. What I do consider as defining features of my human identity are reason, curiosity, understanding, and love. So even when technology will permit " *tapping the contents of my mind and transfering them into the metallic lattices of a computer*", I will retain the really important aspects of my human nature. We want everyone to enjoy a better life: how can anyone be against? We find the answer in " *Embodiment is fundamental to our identity, designed by God, and sanctified by the Incarnation and bodily resurrection of our Lord*". So, this is just the old war of religious fundamentalists on reason, progress and humanist values. Sorry Dr. Hook, but I don't think embodiment is fundamental to my identity, and I am not sure if I believe in any God. If I did, mine would be a God of Love and not a God of Fear: a God who has given us a mind capable of understanding the universe, and using such understanding to improve our lives. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 1 11:05:45 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:05:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2005, at 4:58 AM, BillK wrote: > > So our magic machines will have to support a non-working population. > How? Everybody on Social Security? > If our well-augmented future selves are not competitive relative to pure AIs and robots then some other arrangement will be needed. I hope at some point that we reach a high enough level of abundance that most physical necessities are easily available because they are "too cheap to meter" after MNT. Computational/information resources would also likely be ubiquitous and nearly unimaginably powerful. Medical care could easily be as cheap as a shot of nanobots and occasional software upgrades freely available on the Net. If that much is so then there would be no such thing as abject poverty in the sense of being homeless, lacking for food, and so on. There would also not be literal computational have-nots although there could well be some tools and capabilities that were not mass accessible. The big question is whether human beings are the type of beings who can create/open up to/live in this type of world. The situation with human starvation in the face of plenty of food production capacity doesn't seem a promising sign. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 1 11:16:29 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:16:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> On Oct 31, 2005, at 8:17 AM, Brian Atkins wrote: > BillK wrote: > >> So our magic machines will have to support a non-working population. >> How? Everybody on Social Security? >> > > No. Rather than everyone a worker for someone else, or everyone > getting free money dropped by government helicopters, I would > suggest considering the idea that more and more people need to > start considering becoming capitalists. > > Why moan about having to work for some other factory owner, or > losing your job to a robot, when you may be able to take advantage > of rapidly increasing technological-capability-per-buck to > eventually own your own automated hardware or software that would > allow you to operate your own company. In a capitalist model in today's sense exactly how would you earn any money to save up to own these tools if the relative value of your labor/skills was too low to gain any employment? How would you pay for more training or augmentation without any income source? > > Everyone, start saving up a down payment for your own robot crew > now. Eventually it'll be like buying a car. In the meantime try > running an Ebay business like the other million or so people that > already make a living there, or come up with some other way to take > advantage of currently available software, services, or new > hardware tech. I believe there are around half a million people who make a living on ebay but it is an interesting point in today's economy. But not far down the line you might be seriously outclassed by those who can afford the latest auction AI services. Not so far-fetched when online poker bots are today making it foolhardy for a mere human to play poker online. > > The time of complaining "I can't start a business because of..." is > ending. Excuses based on costs of equipment, software, or materials > are going to fall by the wayside. How do you figure? If all those fall by the wayside then why would I need to own a micro-fab to make a living? > Don't know how to administrate a company? There will be automated > software to handle it all. For free? If not see the questions at the beginning. > I think corporate size is trending smaller and smaller, the long > tail is growing. Almost everyone will have to consider being a part > of this trend eventually. Start thinking now. > Great advice but I am unsure everyone can actually use it. - samantha From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Nov 1 11:39:18 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 22:39:18 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer><200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com><4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> Message-ID: <038901c5ded8$e4f8f3f0$8998e03c@homepc> Samantha Atkins wrote: > online poker bots are today making it foolhardy for a mere human to > play poker online. Really? I hadn't heard that. I'm not an online poker player. How good are the bots? Who profits when the bots win? Brett Paatsch From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 1 11:43:30 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:43:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> On Oct 31, 2005, at 10:15 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > >> He's absolutely right you know. >> > > "Absolutely'? Strong wording that. True believer > stuff. Tread carefully. > > While the world is awash in opportunity, there are > problems. I'll list three. > > Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to train > people to be economically savvy, to recognize the > abundance of opportunity and to make it work for them. > In the old days a son or daughter would be at their > father or mother's side and learn the necessary life > skills. Our culture has no plan -- our education > system is an unfocused corrupted pile of crap -- for > preparing people to be economically competent. When > people succeed, they do so IN SPITE OF the culture's > failure to do its duty and prepare them. Almost > without exception the preparation for success comes > from the family, from the individual realizing what > he/she needs to do, or from blind luck. And the > family influence is so crucial a factor, that economic > incompetence (from which comes poverty) is virtually > an inherited familial legacy. > > I wonder whether people see this, because to me it > seems that successful people who know "how to get > there from here" do it naturally, like breathing, > without thinking and without realizing that it's > something you need to know how to do. And > unsuccessful people, the chronically indigent, are > paralyzed by the absolute certainty that there IS NO > WAY OUT, > Few people, even ones making it just fine, really develop any financial sense at all much less develop and entrepreneurial mindset. I sure agree with you there. But how do we fix it from here? Telling ourselves that people can just pick a living off the Net assumes way toq much about what resources and skills most people have. It is easy to think about what we here who are self selected for more than average intelligence and imagination would/could do and think that of course the same thing is true of everyone else. Unfortunately that is not remotely the case. There are scenarios where there is NO WAY OUT without rewriting some rules or removing some obstacles. If the government requires you to get a license you can't afford to sell what you can do to those willing to pay then you are in fact a bit trapped. If you are young and just starting out with no real skills and the government forbids anyone to hire you for what your utterly untrained and never tested in a job labor is thought to be worth then you are a bit trapped. If you are homeless and you are required to have a fixed address to even get on many types of relief, much less to hold a job, then you are a bit trapped if you are homeless. If technology has moved along and your skills are obsolete and/or available much cheaper than you can stay afloat on and re-training is not available, not affordable or you just can't seem to hack the new stuff you could be a bit blocked. - samantha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 12:09:07 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:09:07 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051031093415.02af9780@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <20051030033328.91209.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051031093415.02af9780@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: On 10/31/05, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > At 09:33 PM 10/29/2005, Avant wrote: > > Imagine my surprise when I discovered he had been > booted from the list by none other than Natasha. > > > Stuart, you are making a leap in judgment. I did not boot Mike off the > list. And I would appreciate you respecting the list rules and the decision > of its moderators for doing what is believed to be the right thing in > deference to all list members and ExI. Respect does not mean agreement, or even keeping ones mouth shut in public. So, for the record, I disagree with the moderators decision. If you have any complaints, email the Board of ExI directly at > info at extropy.org and the email will be forwarded to all Board members and > list moderators. > > If I have complaints, I'll air them here first - in public. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Nov 1 12:15:12 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:15:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> Message-ID: <20051101121512.GJ2249@leitl.org> On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 03:43:30AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > If technology has moved along and your skills are obsolete and/or > available much cheaper than you can stay afloat on and re-training is > not available, not affordable or you just can't seem to hack the new > stuff you could be a bit blocked. There are no old programmers in IT. Exceptions prove the rule. (There are old hands in IT, but they're not programmers). I don't understand how retraining is being offered as an option if everyone at the bottom is in debt staying where they are, working three jobs at minimum wage. Most of us here are sheltered (or we wouldn't be here in the first place) but please don't extrapolate from a skewed sample. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 12:29:59 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:29:59 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] survey on fringe ideas: politics In-Reply-To: <58052957-B26E-454E-B0A0-BEE6B133DEB6@mac.com> References: <200510291800.j9TI09e23238@tick.javien.com> <4363DB76.2070301@lineone.net> <58052957-B26E-454E-B0A0-BEE6B133DEB6@mac.com> Message-ID: On 10/30/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Do not confuse "certainty" with "absolute certainty". Science is > about producing and quantifying certainty. > > - s > > On Oct 29, 2005, at 1:28 PM, ben wrote: > > > Dirk: "There is no certainty, and without certainty there is only > > belief." > > > > This was said in irony, right? > > > > Cos the only thing which produces certainty is belief. Anyone with > > their eyes open should be able to see that there is no such thing > > as certainty. This is what science is all about. I'm stating the > > obvious here, aren't i? I sincerely hope so. > > There are only *beliefs*. The only possible argument is over the statistics. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Nov 1 15:35:23 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:35:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051031204311.071e1cc0@unreasonable.com> References: <200510300620.j9U6K5e04458@tick.javien.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051031092934.02b00860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <8d71341e0510311059n5d83ad93u94cf1775724e926b@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051031204311.071e1cc0@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051101093204.04e4e688@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 08:26 PM 10/31/2005, you wrote: >I certainly welcome peaceable relations and courtesy within our >community but neither Max nor Extropy Institute had or have any >legally enforceable rights to "ExI". I disagree, and we *have* had advice from an IP attorney. >The reasons are many, but you can sanity-check this with a simple >trademark search -- > >http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=login&p_lang=english&p_d=trmk How does that prove your claim? You think that because several businesses have or are using "EXI' that we have no rights to ExI? That's mistaken. No one else that I checked is using it in a context that is likely to cause confusion with our organization. There are numerous companies called "Oracle", but you can bet that Larry Ellison would sue and win if another database company -- even another software company -- used that name. Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From jpnitya at verizon.net Tue Nov 1 15:47:06 2005 From: jpnitya at verizon.net (Joao Magalhaes) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:47:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ROS and aging Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20051031155123.04e888d8@receptor.med.harvard.edu> Hi, Here are a couple of recent papers on ROS and aging that called my attention--hope this is not a repost. First of all, overexpression of glutamate-cysteine ligase extends lifespan in Drosophila by up to 50%: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16148000&query_hl=210 Glutamate-cysteine ligase is involved in glutathione synthesis, that can act as an antioxidant. The highest life-extension was due to overexpression in the brain, which is similar to previous results with SOD. So far, manipulations of the glutathione system in mice have failed to affect aging, but this particular genes has not been tested. In mammals, I believe the glutathione system mostly acts on oxidative defence in erythrocytes--though it has other functions. Mutations in these genes in humans have been associated with anemia but polymorphisms have been linked with myocardial infarction. This system could thus be similar to what we saw with catalase: overexpression leads to life-extension in Drosophila and, in mice, has a protective effect of cardiac disease but does not impact on the whole aging process. We'll see if they develop some similar model in mice. In the next paper they created a Drosophila strain with high levels of antioxidants and a lower production of ROS. Interestingly, the animals actually live less than controls: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15954861&query_hl=112 This seems to support the idea that ROS are not just damaging compounds, but essential biological molecules used in a myriad of functions. On this subject, I have a paper on ROS that could be of interest to some of you: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16226003&query_hl=116 Lastly, here's another recent paper showing that antioxidant protection does not correlate with longevity in rodents, in line with many other results suggesting that antioxidant protection is already optimized in mammals: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16087218&query_hl=112 Cheers, Joao --- Joao Pedro de Magalhaes, PhD Harvard Medical School, Dept. of Genetics 77 Avenue Louis Pasteur, Room 238 Boston, MA 02115 Telephone: 1-617-432-6512 http://www.senescence.info From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Nov 1 16:10:03 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:10:03 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: References: <20051030033328.91209.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051031093415.02af9780@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051101094635.03051aa0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 06:09 AM 11/1/2005, Dirk wrote: >On 10/31/05, Natasha Vita-More ><natasha at natasha.cc> wrote: >At 09:33 PM 10/29/2005, Avant wrote: > >> Imagine my surprise when I discovered he had been >>booted from the list by none other than Natasha. > >Stuart, you are making a leap in judgment. I did not boot Mike off the >list. And I would appreciate you respecting the list rules and the >decision of its moderators for doing what is believed to be the right >thing in deference to all list members and ExI. > >Respect does not mean agreement, When people join the list, the extropy list asks them to agree to and follow list rules. >So, for the record, I disagree with the moderators decision. Sometimes I don't agree with moderators' decisions either, but I believe that the moderators are fair and equitable and review the circumstances carefully. >If you have any complaints, email the Board of ExI directly at >info at extropy.org and the email will be forwarded >to all Board members and list moderators. > >If I have complaints, I'll air them here first - in public. That's fine. Some people prefer to do it in private and sometimes it makes a bigger impression on the moderators if email is sent to them and the Board directly. This is most likely why list rules agreement state that complaints are to be sent to moderators. Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist - Designer Future Studies, University of Houston President, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture Honorary Vice-Chair, World Transhumanist Association Senior Associate, Foresight Institute Advisor, Alcor Life Extension Foundation If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at posthuman.com Tue Nov 1 16:41:46 2005 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:41:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43679ACA.1040406@posthuman.com> Jeff Davis wrote: > > Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to train > people to be economically savvy, I completely agree with that. I was thinking about it yesterday after I posted... was reminded of my high school experience, wherein I was forced as part of the curriculum to take some vocational classes. The choices were things like: typing, computer word processing, "home economics", drafting, wood shop. How many kids would choose a "business 101 + investing" choice if they had offered it? Why isn't something like this a standard offering in schools? -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From brian at posthuman.com Tue Nov 1 17:12:48 2005 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:12:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> Message-ID: <4367A210.2000203@posthuman.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > > In a capitalist model in today's sense exactly how would you earn any > money to save up to own these tools if the relative value of your > labor/skills was too low to gain any employment? How would you pay for > more training or augmentation without any income source? I think living as a capitalist means you have to try and accumulate / maintain various forms of capital: money, equipment/software, social capital, training/art abilities, intellectual capital, etc. If you do so, you will find at some point you have enough that a business idea almost jumps out at you and demands doing. My advice at the bottom was essentially: get started now on doing that, while it /may/ still be easier to bootstrap from virtually nothing. I'm not really sure it will be harder in the future... that's a complex question to ponder. I wouldn't count on it being as relatively easy as it is now though. > > I believe there are around half a million people who make a living on > ebay but it is an interesting point in today's economy. But not far > down the line you might be seriously outclassed by those who can afford > the latest auction AI services. Not so far-fetched when online poker > bots are today making it foolhardy for a mere human to play poker online. Certainly. In fact there are a whole ton of companies and people who make their money supplying software tools and other services to Ebay sellers. This is a typical ecosystem developing. Compete within it, or find another niche. All this competition sounds offputting I guess to some folks, but the nice thing is if you can reach a high enough point (it's actually not that high), you can hire employees (or perhaps some form of AIs in the future) to run some or all the day to day stuff for you. It doesn't have to be a neverending effort on your part personally for eternity if you don't enjoy constant competition (although you should try and pick a nice that you enjoy working in - this is another advantage of being a capitalist vs. working for someone else). And of course most people hope to develop enough assets eventually to increase their flexibility to the point where they can retire. > >> > >> The time of complaining "I can't start a business because of..." is >> ending. Excuses based on costs of equipment, software, or materials >> are going to fall by the wayside. > > > How do you figure? If all those fall by the wayside then why would I > need to own a micro-fab to make a living? It may eventually reach a point where you can purchase an extremely cheap nano fab, feed it solar power and other bits from the local landscape, and you can live for near-free. That's not the scenario I'm pondering though. I'm looking at more of an intermediate scenario between here and there, where the support functions exist to allow anyone to "easily" launch almost any kind of company. "Easily" because it won't require the amounts of human staffing or all-encompassing knowledge that it may have required in the past. Increasing chunks will be automated in various ways, pre-encoded, pre-thought-out, click-pretty-graphics-to-run-your-biz. This is the ongoing GUI-ization of business. All this won't be free, and you will still need to get the ball rolling, but the price tag for all this will continue to decrease IMO. >> I think corporate size is trending smaller and smaller, the long tail >> is growing. Almost everyone will have to consider being a part of >> this trend eventually. Start thinking now. >> > > Great advice but I am unsure everyone can actually use it. > Well, if it continues to be easier and easier to run a business, then eventually almost everyone should be able to use it. If a function of this forum is attempting to get a handle on future developments, and if we think biz automation in all its forms will continue to increase, then again: start thinking now. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Nov 1 17:36:38 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (mail at harveynewstrom.com) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:36:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Always On - The Techno Sapiens Are Coming In-Reply-To: <470a3c520511010147l61d217ecv9ac5f5a45d926a93@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520511010147l61d217ecv9ac5f5a45d926a93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 writes: > Always On - The Techno Sapiens Are Coming - The promise and peril of > nanotechnology invite a closer look at its ethical > implications. > The author Dr. C. Christopher Hook, MD, quotes the conference proceedings on > "Converging Technologies for Improving Human Performance" as seminal > documents for government sponsorship of nanotechnology, biotechnology, > information technology, and cognitive science/cybernetics to enhance human > beings. I thought this looked familiar. This posting has been appearing on the Internet for a couple of years now. The earliest posting I just found with Google is from 2003 in "Christianity Today". It is part of a collection of articles on Christianity and technology being used at the University of Toronto. - - -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From eugen at leitl.org Tue Nov 1 17:37:40 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:37:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <4367A210.2000203@posthuman.com> References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> <4367A210.2000203@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20051101173740.GF2249@leitl.org> On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 11:12:48AM -0600, Brian Atkins wrote: > My advice at the bottom was essentially: get started now on doing that, > while it /may/ still be easier to bootstrap from virtually nothing. The cheapest way of starting up is to shuffle bits, not atoms, of course there's also where most of the competition is. > I'm not really sure it will be harder in the future... that's a complex I'm pretty sure it will be harder in the future. It is getting harder by the month. > question to ponder. I wouldn't count on it being as relatively easy as it > is now though. > > All this competition sounds offputting I guess to some folks, but the nice > thing is if you can reach a high enough point (it's actually not that > high), you can hire employees (or perhaps some form of AIs in the future) It doesn't have to be a future AI, lots of business processes which ordinary need a warm body in the loop are pretty automatable. Actually hiring people requires a steady flow of income, and is opening you up to liabilities (unless you're outsourcing to cheaper places, which has other dangers). > Well, if it continues to be easier and easier to run a business, then > eventually almost everyone should be able to use it. If a function of this > forum is attempting to get a handle on future developments, and if we think > biz automation in all its forms will continue to increase, then again: > start thinking now. Good advice, actually. If it's low risk, and you're prone to pessimism another one is: it's not too late. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Tue Nov 1 17:53:13 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:53:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <43679ACA.1040406@posthuman.com> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <43679ACA.1040406@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051101125128.02f04ed8@gmu.edu> At 11:41 AM 11/1/2005, Brian Atkins wrote: >Jeff Davis wrote: >>Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to train >>people to be economically savvy, > >I completely agree with that. >I was thinking about it yesterday after I posted... was reminded of >my high school experience, wherein I was forced as part of the >curriculum to take some vocational classes. The choices were things >like: typing, computer word processing, "home economics", drafting, wood shop. >How many kids would choose a "business 101 + investing" choice if >they had offered it? Why isn't something like this a standard >offering in schools? This is an excellent, and I think deep question. Well worth pondering at length. Why indeed. Not only are there no courses to teach you how to invest in or run a business, they also teach little about how to be a savvy consumer. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 18:33:30 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:33:30 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <4367A210.2000203@posthuman.com> References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> <4367A210.2000203@posthuman.com> Message-ID: On 11/1/05, Brian Atkins wrote: > All this competition sounds offputting I guess to some folks, but the nice thing > is if you can reach a high enough point (it's actually not that high), you can > hire employees (or perhaps some form of AIs in the future) to run some or all > the day to day stuff for you. It doesn't have to be a neverending effort on your > part personally for eternity if you don't enjoy constant competition (although > you should try and pick a nice that you enjoy working in - this is another > advantage of being a capitalist vs. working for someone else). And of course > most people hope to develop enough assets eventually to increase their > flexibility to the point where they can retire. > But..... All our machines will be doing the work. There won't be competition anymore. Humans will be permanently retired. That was Spike's ideal scenario. It will be a future of hobbies, hairdressing, painting, interior designing, etc. BillK From brian at posthuman.com Tue Nov 1 18:47:28 2005 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:47:28 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> <4367A210.2000203@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <4367B840.50709@posthuman.com> BillK wrote: > > But..... > All our machines will be doing the work. There won't be competition > anymore. Humans will be permanently retired. That was Spike's ideal > scenario. > > It will be a future of hobbies, hairdressing, painting, interior designing, etc. > Humans can't be fully retired/out of the loop until there are AGIs that surpass us. You're talking Singularity - beyond the scope of my discussion. Until then, humans, increasingly enhanced humans, will continue to pull the strings of the subhuman software. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 1 20:26:53 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:26:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051101093204.04e4e688@pop-server.austin.rr.com > References: <200510300620.j9U6K5e04458@tick.javien.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051031092934.02b00860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <8d71341e0510311059n5d83ad93u94cf1775724e926b@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051031204311.071e1cc0@unreasonable.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051101093204.04e4e688@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051101133704.072e3d40@unreasonable.com> Max wrote: >How does that prove your claim? You think that because several >businesses have or are using "EXI' that we have no rights to ExI? >That's mistaken. No one else that I checked is using it in a context >that is likely to cause confusion with our organization. You don't have a registered federal trademark for ExI, while in fact several other organizations do, including EXi Corp. For that matter, I see no registered federal trademarks owned by either Extropy Institute or Max More. (Although Extro is a registered trademark of Coca-Cola for carbonated fruit juice. Perhaps some could be obtained for the next conference.) The extropy.org web site does not claim any trade or service marks. >There are numerous companies called "Oracle", but you can bet that >Larry Ellison would sue and win if another database company -- even >another software company -- used that name. They also have substantial documented usage and assertion of trademark, deep financial pockets, and an SOB CEO. None of which the Extropy Institute has. The Oracle trademarks are worth billions, and they are in jeopardy if not actively protected. And yet there are 946 Yahoo groups devoted to Oracle, many using the word Oracle in their title, none authorized by Oracle Corporation. I'm glad the matter was settled amicably. But had you been more antagonistic to Mike, he could easily have gotten his dander up and refused. In which case, I'd have put long odds against you prevailing. -- David. From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 1 21:13:07 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:13:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <038901c5ded8$e4f8f3f0$8998e03c@homepc> References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> <4366437E.7000502@posthuman.com> <1F10BA0B-104F-406D-9360-D6971F2B7318@mac.com> <038901c5ded8$e4f8f3f0$8998e03c@homepc> Message-ID: Below is a wired article about these. Many more are available from google. Presumably the winnings are collected by whoever owns the account hooked used by the bot player. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.09/pokerbots.html - samantha On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:39 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > > >> online poker bots are today making it foolhardy for a mere human >> to play poker online. >> > > Really? I hadn't heard that. I'm not an online poker player. > > How good are the bots? Who profits when the bots win? > Brett Paatsch > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 21:16:15 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:16:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <43679ACA.1040406@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20051101211616.15605.qmail@web60015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Atkins wrote: > Jeff Davis wrote: > > > > Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to > train > > people to be economically savvy, > > I completely agree with that. > > I was thinking about it yesterday after I posted... > was reminded of my high > school experience, wherein I was forced as part of > the curriculum to take some > vocational classes. The choices were things like: > typing, computer word > processing, "home economics", drafting, wood shop. > > How many kids would choose a "business 101 + > investing" choice if they had > offered it? Why isn't something like this a standard > offering in schools? Yes, exactly. This problem could be relatively easy to solve once recognized, seen as important, and a commitment made to correct the situation. The Head Start program serves as an excellent example. It sought to break that crucial family/microculture role in the continuity of poverty. A bedrock goal of the K-12 education system should be to graduate financially self-sustaining individuals, who have both short- and long-term economic savvy, and who are prepared to, without overmuch anxiety, revise their economic practices when "the winds of changes shift". Also, a similar program could be imbedded in the penal system. Wire up the prisons and then make it that no convict gets out till they have a running business that meets their financial needs. Nothing like going to sleep at night knowing everything is under control and the cops aren't after your ass, to take a bite out of crime. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From discwuzit at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 21:17:14 2005 From: discwuzit at yahoo.com (John B) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:17:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <200511011900.jA1J0Le01322@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051101211714.57786.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Ick. Post-scarcity. I get all itchy whenever this comes up. *chuckle* Assuming perfect post scarcity, there'll still be things to compete over. Land - "Location, location, location!" still applies - there's only so much Maui beachfront. Mates, either sexual or whatever other form of mutual exchange you care for (tiddlywinks? Ideas? Crafts? Care?). Note that this also affects Land, as many such relationships presupposes a close physical proximity. There are potential technical limits to 'post-scarcity' as well - we've "only" got one systems' matter to play with, for instance, and some significant portion of that will be used up if we try to do something significantly different than letting it stay in its current orbits. Another include the amount of heat that the Earth can handle without damage (which is potentially conquerable with the 'right' tech mix, I admit) The competition doesn't have to be economic. There will probably be economics maintained - as a scoring system, if for nothing else - for a good long while after it's no longer needed. Power requires some form of keeping score, and power sets the rules - so there will continue to be 'tokens' of power, be that currency or nanofac capacity or template bandwidth or whatever the chits used are called. All this is theory on my part, and IMO dissembling - I don't think there can be such a thing as an 'economics of plenty'. That's not economics! *chuckle* Economics (to be a bit pedantic, sorry) is the study of choices made under limitation. If there are no limits, there is no economics. Dr Hanson, or other economic-savvy types out there - am I correct in that? -John B Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:33:30 +0000 From: BillK Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty But..... All our machines will be doing the work. There won't be competition anymore. Humans will be permanently retired. That was Spike's ideal scenario. It will be a future of hobbies, hairdressing, painting, interior designing, etc. BillK __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 22:04:43 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:04:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <43679ACA.1040406@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20051101220443.46955.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Atkins wrote: > Jeff Davis wrote: > > > > Our culture does NOT make a focused effort to > train > > people to be economically savvy, > > I completely agree with that. > > I was thinking about it yesterday after I posted... > was reminded of my high > school experience, wherein I was forced as part of > the curriculum to take some > vocational classes. The choices were things like: > typing, computer word > processing, "home economics", drafting, wood shop. > > How many kids would choose a "business 101 + > investing" choice if they had > offered it? Why isn't something like this a standard > offering in schools? This is for several reasons. The biggest reason is that one of the economic theories on which the market is founded is the "bigger fool" theory. That is that whatever you happen to pay for a stock, there is presumably a bigger fool out there to willing to buy it from you at a higher price than you did. If everyone is educated in smart investment strategy, then there wouldn't be a large enough supply of fools to be left holding the bag when the bubble bursts. For all the talk about quality education by politicians in this country, much of public education system is dedicated to simply ensuring a steady supply of "consumers". The focus is not on building wealth but on "getting a job" that will allow the populace to make the minimum payments on the credit cards that they max out in response to slick Madison Ave. advertisements. After years of this, what do you have? A service economy or put another way, a nation of servants indentured to their Master Cards and having nothing worth selling except for their most valuable commodity of all, their all too finite time. And even that at the lowest possible rate else they will lose out to the hungry masses of the foreign labor markets. One of the early warning signs of the decline of the Roman Empire was that the common citizen was disenfranchised by the importation of slaves to do his job. The decline of America is instead presaged by disenfranchisement through the exportation of jobs to foreign labor markets. So any ideas on how this magical shift to a economy of plenty will happen with an economic theory based on the value of scarcity? SHOULD the water that flows in your veins and sustains your life be nearly valueless while a mint condition Action Comics #1 be worth a fortune? The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 22:11:56 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:11:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] SAO PAULO: November 3, 7:30 pm: Science, Religion and the Future of Humanity In-Reply-To: <20051101181101.25467.qmail@web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051101221156.99382.qmail@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear friends, I am looking forward to seeing you on Thursday, November 3, at the Willis Harman House for the presentation about Science, Religion and the Future of Humanity. Several recent short videos about computer to brain and to eye implants, and about robots will also be shown: www.willisharmanhouse.com.br Futuristically yours, La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmasten at piratelabs.org Tue Nov 1 22:21:04 2005 From: dmasten at piratelabs.org (David Masten) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:21:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics, scarcity, and plenty Message-ID: <1130883664.2648.49.camel@dmlap> I'm new to the list, and I seem to have come in on a discussion of things that just don't make sense. "Economics of scarcity" and "economics of plenty" are meaningless to me. If we are talking about economics then I expect that the words used would be the terms of art for economics. The usual definition of economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources. Thus the phrase "economics of scarcity" is redundant, and the phrase "economics of plenty" is an oxymoron. Further, scarcity is a term of art within economics and has precise meaning that does not quite match the usual connotation. Per Samuelson and Nordhaus' textbook _Economics_: Scarcity is the distinguishing characteristic of an economic good. That an economic good is scarce does not mean it is rare, but only that it is not freely available for the taking. To obtain such a good, one must either produce it or offer other economic goods in exchange. Economic Good ? A good that is scarce relative to the total amount of it that is desired. It must therefore be rationed, usually by charging a positive price. Free Good ? Those goods that are not economic goods. Like air or seawater, they exist in such large quantities that they need not be rationed out among those who wish to use them. Thus their market price is zero. If by "economics of plenty" we are suggesting "studying the allocation of free goods" then there is nothing to study! There is no competition for the resource and thus no allocation to study. Changing goods from economic to free or vis-versa does not alter the principles of economics. In fact, air is not really a free good any longer. We have realized that the atmosphere is of limited quantity and that use of air for the disposal of industrial by-products is and must be an economic good, that is, it is an allocated resource for which there isn't enough to go to everyone in the quantities they desire. Dave From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 22:23:06 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:23:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <20051101211714.57786.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051101222306.38204.qmail@web60024.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > Ick. Post-scarcity. I get all itchy whenever this > comes up. *chuckle* > > Assuming perfect post scarcity, there'll still be > things to compete over. > > Land - "Location, location, location!" still applies > - > there's only so much Maui beachfront. Yes and no. Seven-tenths of the earths surface is covered in water. Build a duplicate of Maui, Malibu, San Francisco, Paris, etc, put it on a barge (a very large barge to be sure), and voila! Not only do you have more prime real estate, but it has more valuable waterfront than the original, and -- surprise, surprise -- it can be anywhere in the world you want it to be (like Santa Catalina is to L.A.), but moveable if that proves useful, as no doubt it would. > Mates, either sexual or whatever other form of > mutual > exchange you care for (tiddlywinks? Ideas? Crafts? > Care?). Note that this also affects Land, as many > such > relationships presupposes a close physical > proximity. > > There are potential technical limits to > 'post-scarcity' as well - we've "only" got one > systems' matter to play with, for instance, and some > significant portion of that will be used up if we > try > to do something significantly different than letting > it stay in its current orbits. This is your example of the limited resources of our system!!!??? By the time we approach a Kardeshev type I civilization we'll be doin' the post-singularity dance and this whole scarcity/abundance issue will be a museum piece akin to stone tools. > Another include the > amount of heat that the Earth can handle without > damage (which is potentially conquerable with the > 'right' tech mix, I admit) ...potentially conquerable with the 'right' tech mix, I agree. > > The competition doesn't have to be economic. There > will probably be economics maintained - as a scoring > system, if for nothing else - for a good long while > after it's no longer needed. > Power requires some form of keeping score, and power sets the rules... Which brings up the crucial question of power. It seems clear that power has always been correllated with wealth. However, we have seen in our time examples of countries becoming substantially wealthier. As this takes place, the distribution of wealth within these societies changes, middle-classes (a group with professional, managerial, and entreprenurial skills and substantially greater wealth than serfs/lower classes) expand and, with their greater wealth, begin to exercise greater political power. So what are the historic trends regarding the changing distribution of power? And what does this imply for the hypothetical future society with its hypothetical abundance? And lest we forget, this process is unrelentingly dynamic, so we're likely dealing with a continuously moving target. A dynamic transition, through stages, from the culture we have now to the culture (pre-singularity) "of abundance" and beyond. > - so there will continue to be 'tokens' of power, be that currency or nanofac capacity or template bandwidth or whatever the chits used are called. > > All this is theory on my part, And mine as well, (gulp!). > and IMO dissembling - > I don't think there can be such a thing as an > 'economics of plenty'. That's not economics! *chuckle* > > Economics (to be a bit pedantic, sorry) is the study > of choices made under limitation. If there are no > limits, there is no economics. > > Dr Hanson, or other economic-savvy types out there - > am I correct in that? > > -John B Best, Jeff Davis "We are every one an "idiot and moron" compared to what we seek to become." Samantha Atkins __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 23:03:50 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:03:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] economics, scarcity, and plenty In-Reply-To: <1130883664.2648.49.camel@dmlap> Message-ID: <20051101230350.75898.qmail@web60017.mail.yahoo.com> Welcome to the list, Dave. --- David Masten wrote: > I'm new to the list, and I seem to have come in on a > discussion of > things that just don't make sense. "Economics of > scarcity" and > "economics of plenty" are meaningless to me. Let me try to help out, speaking only for myself, of course. > If we are talking about economics then I expect that > the words used would be the terms of art for economics. The usual definition of economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources. > Scarcity is the distinguishing characteristic of > an economic good. > [defined as] not freely available for the taking. To > obtain such a good, one must either produce it or > offer other economic goods in exchange. > > Economic Good ? A good that is scarce relative to > the total amount of it that is desired. It must > therefore be rationed, usually by charging a > positive price. Now, from the above definitions, I take "positive price" to mean greater than zero, but otherwise unspecified. So, for the purpose of clarifying their meanings, in an "economics of scarcity" an automobile costs $40,000. In an "economics of abundance" it costs 40 cents. And, so there be no misunderstanding, that 40 cents is equally easy to come by under both economic regimes. So, in fact you're right. It's still, in a rigorous sense, an economics of scarcity, which as you say is really just economics, the scarcity being implied. However, within the context of this discussion, "economics of scarcity" and "economics of abundance" are intended (by me at least) to distinguish between two conditions of scarcity, of -- based on my example, and for discussion purposes only, it could be less or it could be more -- five orders of magnitude difference. I hope that's helpful. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 1 23:15:17 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:15:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <20051101121512.GJ2249@leitl.org> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> <20051101121512.GJ2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: <11B86625-8304-4517-8B3D-28DBB9769AB2@mac.com> On Nov 1, 2005, at 4:15 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 03:43:30AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > >> If technology has moved along and your skills are obsolete and/or >> available much cheaper than you can stay afloat on and re-training is >> not available, not affordable or you just can't seem to hack the new >> stuff you could be a bit blocked. >> > > There are no old programmers in IT. Exceptions prove the rule. > (There are old hands in IT, but they're not programmers). Exception prove that the "rule" is bogus nonsense like most over- generalizations. It is true I am more often called "Principle Architect" or "Computer Scientist" lately but I still design and implement systems. I have been doing so for 26 years. I am now 51. Some people might call that "old". After they pick themselves up from the ground we get on with business. :-) > > I don't understand how retraining is being offered as an > option if everyone at the bottom is in debt staying where they are, > working > three jobs at minimum wage. Most of us here are sheltered > (or we wouldn't be here in the first place) but please don't > extrapolate from a skewed sample. > True. - samantha From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 23:23:31 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:23:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] gm biodiesel 'em In-Reply-To: <200510310424.j9V4O8e28580@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051101232331.31620.qmail@web60012.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > I am told by a friend that knows from Russian cars > that the Italians taught the commies how to build > cars. Well, that explains a lot. Imagine that alternate multiverse where the Germans taught the Russions how to build cars. Scary. > So a modern Russian-built car is analogous > to a 1970s lower end Fiat, but more poorly built. We should task the Italians to help out all our adversaries. We should hire the Italians to provide crucial national security casus belli intelligence regarding the WMD activities of our adversa... er, well, maybe not. Best, Jeff Davis "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." Winston Churchill __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 23:46:55 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:46:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <200510300556.j9U5uBe01530@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051101234655.50299.qmail@web60015.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > I am often seen going about with a bottle of > distilled water and a SCUBA tank. ... > spike Ripper: Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water? Mandrake: Well, I can't say I have. Ripper: Vodka, that's what they drink, isn't it? Never water? Mandrake: Well, I-I believe that's what they drink, Jack, yes. Ripper: On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason. Mandrake: Oh, eh, yes. I, uhm, can't quite see what you're getting at, Jack. Ripper: Water, that's what I'm getting at, water. Mandrake, water is the source of all life. Seven-tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, do you realize that seventy percent of you is water? Mandrake: Uh, uh, Good Lord! Ripper: And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids. Mandrake: Yes. (he begins to chuckle nervously) Ripper: Are you beginning to understand? Mandrake: Yes. (more laughter) Ripper: Mandrake. Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol? Mandrake: Well, it did occur to me, Jack, yes. Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation. Fluoridation of water? Mandrake: Uh? Yes, I-I have heard of that, Jack, yes. Yes. Ripper: Well, do you know what it is? Mandrake: No, no I don't know what it is, no. Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face? Best, Jeff Davis "We call someone insane who does not believe as we do to an outrageous extent." Charles McCabe __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Nov 2 00:51:57 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:51:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <11B86625-8304-4517-8B3D-28DBB9769AB2@mac.com> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> <20051101121512.GJ2249@leitl.org> <11B86625-8304-4517-8B3D-28DBB9769AB2@mac.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051101193407.0694ef08@unreasonable.com> Samantha wrote: >>There are no old programmers in IT. Exceptions prove the rule. >>(There are old hands in IT, but they're not programmers). > >Exception prove that the "rule" is bogus nonsense like most over- >generalizations. It is true I am more often called "Principle >Architect" or "Computer Scientist" lately but I still design and >implement systems. I have been doing so for 26 years. I am now >51. Some people might call that "old". After they pick >themselves up from the ground we get on with business. :-) Ditto, although I'm a little younger and have been programming a little longer (32 years). I also know quite a few people in their fifties or sixties who work as individual contributors on programming teams. There is an abiding prejudice against hiring engineers over forty that has been around for at least half a century. Nonetheless, there are a lot of us out there. I do get grouchy when a headhunter or HR weenie who clearly has not read my resume asks me if I have any experience with, say, databases. (Yes, you moron. Since before you were born.) -- David. From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 2 03:20:29 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:20:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <20051101234655.50299.qmail@web60015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200511020320.jA23KZe27922@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:47 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents > > --- spike wrote: > > > I am often seen going about with a bottle of > > distilled water and a SCUBA tank. ... In response to a comment by Avantguardian that went something like: I live in Taxifornia where socialism is in the air we breathe and the water we drink. With all our environmental protection laws, I am confident that the masses will eventually be able to draw in a deep breath of pure fresh capitalism, and drink deeply of clean, pure unfettered commerce. Jeff wrote: > >...Do you realize that fluoridation is the most > monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we > have ever had to face? > > Best, Jeff Davis Oh dear no Jeff. The commies have much bigger plots than fluoridation, heh, that was small potatoes. Besides, it was the dentists behind this particular plot, but they may have been commie dentists. Gotta watch those commie dentists, can't trust 'em, ya know. {8^D Jeff, with regard to your comment regarding the failure of public education to prepare proles to run businesses, I can only agree. I went thru the public schools and an engineering degree, attending over 90% of the classes, yet I recall not a single mention of how to start and run a business. For that matter, I do not recall any council on how to be a smart consumer. I do not blame teachers for this: teachers are not business owners, nor did they major in business. I blame not the state: it offers only job training, not necessarily life training. To learn those kinds of lessons, one must go to private school. To learn business, you must go to a business school. To hear lectures by teachers who actually *know* from business, you need to go to a really expensive business school. Public schools are never going to do any of this. Fortunately, those who cannot afford expensive business schools have an acceptable option. They go to work for someone who has started a business. They work hard, they watch and learn, then some day they launch their own business, perhaps in direct competition with their former employers. Everyone wins: the employer gets, for a time, a hardworking and profitable servant, the servant gets a business education, the public gets two firms competing to serve where previously there was only one, driving down the price of the goods and services. The system works! Ahhhhhhh, life is goooood. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 2 03:45:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:45:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] free latvia website In-Reply-To: <4367A210.2000203@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <200511020345.jA23jqe30781@tick.javien.com> Amara wrote: http://www.amara.com/Independence/LestWeForget.html Amara! Honest to evolution this website is a masterpiece. Direct, honest, uncomplicated, informative and so moving! spike From marc.geddes at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 04:16:15 2005 From: marc.geddes at gmail.com (Marc Geddes) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:16:15 +1300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some good advice from the Chronicle I've been following ; ) Message-ID: <7a5e56060511012016u2faab798w1601cf1faeddfa75@mail.gmail.com> "If you wish to be a prophet, first you must dress the part. No more silk ties or tasseled loafers. Instead, throw on a wrinkled T-shirt, frayed jeans, and dirty sneakers. You should appear somewhat unkempt, as if combs and showers were only for the unenlightened. When you encounter critics, as all prophets do, dismiss them as idiots. Make sure to pepper your conversation with grandiose predictions and remind others of your genius often, lest they forget. Oh, and if possible, grow a very long beard." http://chronicle.com/temp/email.php?id=nutzxlssedfcgkchkasn6vsmfiau1s1e -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbert at mydruthers.com Wed Nov 2 05:10:55 2005 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:10:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051101125128.02f04ed8@gmu.edu> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <43679ACA.1040406@posthuman.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20051101125128.02f04ed8@gmu.edu> Message-ID: <43684A5F.9000104@mydruthers.com> Brian wrote: >> I was reminded of my high school experience, wherein I was forced >> as part of the curriculum to take some vocational classes. The >> choices were things like: typing, computer word processing, "home >> economics", drafting, wood shop. >> >> How many kids would choose a "business 101 + investing" choice if >> they had offered it? Why isn't something like this a standard >> offering in schools? Robin responded: > This is an excellent, and I think deep question. Well worth > pondering at length. Why indeed. Not only are there no courses to > teach you how to invest in or run a business, they also teach little > about how to be a savvy consumer. Less true now than when we went to school, Robin. I'm in Virginia (visiting Robin's group at GMU, actually) and staying with my sister. Her husband teaches high school business and economics. Over dinner, he was telling us about the classes he has in which they are running mock businesses. They're learning about business plans, opportunity costs, managing employees, budgeting, and a lot more. I went to high school about 20 miles from here, and there wasn't anything like it at the time. He also used to run a computer consulting business, and so he teaches their computer courses as well. As far as I can tell, that doesn't get beyond the basics of using office applications and building web sites, but that's a good start. They're teaching some of the stuff we think matters to some of the kids. It's hard to tell how many of them are taking it seriously, but I think the fact that some of the kids are getting it means that the terminology and the ideas are seeping into their culture. Chris -- C. J. Cherryh, "Invader", on why we visit very old buildings: "A sense of age, of profound truths. Respect for something hands made, that's stood through storms and wars and time. It persuades us that things we do may last and matter." Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com Blog: http://pancrit.org From eugen at leitl.org Wed Nov 2 07:48:07 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:48:07 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <11B86625-8304-4517-8B3D-28DBB9769AB2@mac.com> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> <20051101121512.GJ2249@leitl.org> <11B86625-8304-4517-8B3D-28DBB9769AB2@mac.com> Message-ID: <20051102074807.GV2249@leitl.org> On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 03:15:17PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Exception prove that the "rule" is bogus nonsense like most over- > generalizations. It is true I am more often called "Principle > Architect" or "Computer Scientist" lately but I still design and > implement systems. I have been doing so for 26 years. I am now > 51. Some people might call that "old". After they pick themselves > up from the ground we get on with business. :-) Yes, you're an exception, not the rule. Very few people can stay at the technical cutting edge that long. Current IT is novelty-driven, and has crazy working hours. Buzzword compliance and ability to pull overtime drive out the old. It's a blue-collar occupation. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Nov 2 09:31:04 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 01:31:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <20051102074807.GV2249@leitl.org> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> <20051101121512.GJ2249@leitl.org> <11B86625-8304-4517-8B3D-28DBB9769AB2@mac.com> <20051102074807.GV2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: <310CC182-E3C2-45FA-93C3-76774005ADCC@mac.com> On Nov 1, 2005, at 11:48 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 03:15:17PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > >> Exception prove that the "rule" is bogus nonsense like most over- >> generalizations. It is true I am more often called "Principle >> Architect" or "Computer Scientist" lately but I still design and >> implement systems. I have been doing so for 26 years. I am now >> 51. Some people might call that "old". After they pick themselves >> up from the ground we get on with business. :-) >> > > Yes, you're an exception, not the rule. Very few people can stay > at the technical cutting edge that long. Current IT is novelty-driven, > and has crazy working hours. Buzzword compliance and ability > to pull overtime drive out the old. It's a blue-collar occupation. I thought I was cynical. :-) Somehow I have managed to find myself in a lot of places that had other people as old as I doing a lot of the most critical work. So much of the new buzz is little more than old ideas wearing a new ill fitting party dress. Undressed it turns out all too often to be all too familiar. That is depressing. A few actually new things come along now and then and can benefit from good design and implementation. All the overtime in the world will not keep a fundamentally flawed idea or execution of the idea running. Those who can see how it will play out early and avoid dead ends have value. But Cassandras don't win many popularity contests. I seem to have a nose for good design. I can't always explain how I do what I do. I am quite discouraged with the state of the industry. In the beginning I saw so many bright things that could be done along with many key questions that would need answers. So much is still not seen by the software industry much less resolved. We stay busy polishing turds (CRUD?) with the latest over-hyped and relatively valueless polish and techniques. I occasionally push past commercial state-of-the-art out of boredom and frustration. After my first rejuve I think I will get a PhD and hang out in academia. That might fit me better. - samantha From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 13:21:51 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:21:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <200511020320.jA23KZe27922@tick.javien.com> References: <20051101234655.50299.qmail@web60015.mail.yahoo.com> <200511020320.jA23KZe27922@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On 11/2/05, spike wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis > > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:47 PM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents > > > > --- spike wrote: > > > > > I am often seen going about with a bottle of > > > distilled water and a SCUBA tank. ... > > In response to a comment by Avantguardian that > went something like: I live in Taxifornia where > socialism is in the air we breathe and the water > we drink. > > LOL! US 'socialism' is what we Europeans call rabid right wing government. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ARTILLO at comcast.net Wed Nov 2 14:49:37 2005 From: ARTILLO at comcast.net (ARTILLO at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:49:37 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Drug discovery software Message-ID: <110220051449.29771.4368D2000008D35C0000744B2200734748B1B4B4B7ABADBE@comcast.net> I thought this was interesting enough to pass on.... - Arti news release from Laboratorytalk.com ____________________________________________________________ SOFTWARE 'WILL IRREVOCABLY CHANGE' DRUG DISCOVERY ____________________________________________________________ Date: 28 October 2005 News from: Quantum Pharmaceuticals Product: Quantum 3.1 http://www.laboratorytalk.com/news/qan/qan104.html Quantum Pharmaceuticals is issuing its first commercial release of research software that it says is expected to speed up pharma R and D radically and irrevocably change the drug discovery software market. Quantum 3.1 is a suite of drug discovery software for Linux and Windows designed to enhance stages of drug discovery workflows, such as target identification, drug hit identification, lead identification and lead optimisation. The Quantum software was developed using a new paradigm in molecular modelling - applying quantum and molecular physics instead of statistical scoring-function-like and Qsar-like methods. The key benefit of Quantum is the outstanding precision of molecular modeling and calculations, says the company. Using Quantum 3.1, researchers can calculate the IC50 of protein-ligand and protein-protein complexes, perform ligand docking, perform virtual screening of small-molecule libraries, analyse large-scale protein movements, perform de novo drug design and calculate the solvation energy and solubility. Quantum 3.1 also helps detect potential moderate-to-serious adverse activity, additional unexpected activity and broad relative selectivity for a library of compounds by screening them against several hundred Adme/Tox-associated proteins. The Mutagenesis module of Quantum 3.1 provides an interface for changing the protein sequence at specific sites through alterations to its amino acids and predicts changes in the bioactivity after mutations. The Quantum software was successfully applied in different in-house and collaborative drug discovery projects of Quantum Pharmaceuticals. As a result of applying Quantum software, the range of the novel chemical inhibitor classes were discovered for disease targets, including HIV-I integrase (Aids), Beta-Secretase (Alzheimer's disease), Human Neutrophil Elastase (CF, COPD), FtsZ (TB) and some others. Quantum technology has demonstrated itself to be very effective in creating revolutionary new medicine, and it has demonstrated its ability to discover new classes of inhibitors, says the company. The free demo version of Quantum 3.1 can be downloaded from Quantum's website. Quantum Pharmaceuticals says it serves the life sciences industry and research community by providing top-of-the-line drug discovery products and services. Since 2002 Quantum Pharmaceuticals has been developing its proprietary computer-based molecular modelling technology. It says the Quantum technology includes the latest achievements in the fields of physics, mathematics and chemistry. It demonstrates outstanding speed and accuracy of affinity calculations using fast quantum calculations which take into account the full flexibility of molecules, solvation effects and entropy contribution. This provides unprecedented possibilities for drug discovery. The headquarters of Quantum Pharmaceuticals is in Moscow, and its worldwide distribution network is expanding. For a brochure or catalogue on this product, please email mailto:courtney.ranson at q-pharm.com (Please mention Laboratorytalk when requesting more information from Quantum Pharmaceuticals) Quantum Pharmaceuticals Moscow, Russia Telephone: (Russia) +7 095 152 9615 Fax: (Russia) +7 095 152 1739 Website: http://www.q-pharm.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 2 14:53:54 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:53:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511021454.jA2Es1e11016@tick.javien.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dirk Bruere > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents > > --- spike wrote: > > > I am often seen going about with a bottle of > > distilled water and a SCUBA tank.??... In response to a comment by Avantguardian that went something like: I live in Taxifornia where socialism is in the air we breathe and the water we drink. LOL! US 'socialism' is what we Europeans call rabid right wing government. Dirk I have always been a fan of rabies. {8^D Dirk, which country are you from? I am interested in European politics to see how you guys solve the pension problem. We yanks have a social security fund that is supposed to go bust in 2038, but I heard Germany and France are facing a similar sitch with more urgency. I don't know that either right or left has a good solution to this. If so I haven't heard it. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Wed Nov 2 16:06:47 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:06:47 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics, scarcity, and plenty In-Reply-To: <20051101230350.75898.qmail@web60017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1130883664.2648.49.camel@dmlap> <20051101230350.75898.qmail@web60017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <22360fa10511020806j568acf28vf20f09b33d4ad238@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/05, Jeff Davis wrote: > Welcome to the list, Dave. > > --- David Masten wrote: > > > I'm new to the list, and I seem to have come in on a > > discussion of > > things that just don't make sense. "Economics of > > scarcity" and > > "economics of plenty" are meaningless to me. > > Let me try to help out, speaking only for myself, of > course. Let me contribute my own perspective as well. I think we could all agree that scarcity and abundance can be seen as the two extremes of a single scale. And we have plenty of examples showing generally that no matter what our actual place on that scale, we tend to think in terms of scarcity. We evolved under conditions of scarcity and fierce competition for survival, and it's our nature to perceive and behave in those terms. But what happens when the conditions of our environment improve to the level that our basic needs are met? Similar to Mazlow's hierarchy, we might be expected to move our focus from survival to "self-actualization", or in the domain of economics from alleviating scarcity to maximizing growth, or in the domain of politics from striving for zero-sum social power to striving for win-win social frameworks. It's still the same scale, but the focus is changed to better match the environment, and the nature of the actions reflect that change. As others have pointed out, we will still compete: for attention, mind-share, more successful ideas winning over those less successful, but the focus will be qualitatively and substantially different. There will still be a leading and tailing edge of relative scarcity and relative abundance, and as the the Red Queen said, "to stay in place you have to run very, very hard, and to get anywhere, you have to run even harder." - Jef http://www.jefallbright.net From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Nov 2 16:37:00 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 11:37:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics, scarcity, and plenty In-Reply-To: <22360fa10511020806j568acf28vf20f09b33d4ad238@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1130883664.2648.49.camel@dmlap> <20051101230350.75898.qmail@web60017.mail.yahoo.com> <22360fa10511020806j568acf28vf20f09b33d4ad238@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051102110950.065c3f30@unreasonable.com> Jef Allbright wrote: >But what happens when the conditions of our environment improve to the >level that our basic needs are met? > : >It's still the same scale, but the focus is changed to better match >the environment, and the nature of the actions reflect that change. >As others have pointed out, we will still compete: for attention, >mind-share, more successful ideas winning over those less successful, >but the focus will be qualitatively and substantially different. Part of what's being ignored in this iteration of a perennial thread is that our concept of "basic needs" has changed throughout human history and will continue to do so. Is the need for food or for parasite-free, non-rancid food? Is health care a need? At what level of care? Not dying in childbirth due to sepsis or not dying ever? Clothing? Education? Enough warmth at night to not freeze, not shiver, or sleep comfortably? Economics will both describe our interaction over all Maslovian levels in an MNT future and the continued material scarcity in such an existence. Natasha wants to transform Iapetus into a sculpture but Amara hasn't finished studying it. Robert wants to add on to his Matrioshka brain while Keith wants to send out a quintillion or so copies of himself to explore the universe. -- David. From xyz at iq.org Wed Nov 2 17:39:09 2005 From: xyz at iq.org (Julian Assange) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:39:09 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <20051102074807.GV2249@leitl.org> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <7E425436-2A14-4B22-BDF8-D05888C1D350@mac.com> <20051101121512.GJ2249@leitl.org> <11B86625-8304-4517-8B3D-28DBB9769AB2@mac.com> <20051102074807.GV2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1130953149.25457.246599717@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:48:07 +0100, "Eugen Leitl" said: > On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 03:15:17PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > Exception prove that the "rule" is bogus nonsense like most over- > > generalizations. It is true I am more often called "Principle > > Architect" or "Computer Scientist" lately but I still design and > > implement systems. I have been doing so for 26 years. I am now > > 51. Some people might call that "old". After they pick themselves > > up from the ground we get on with business. :-) > > Yes, you're an exception, not the rule. Very few people can stay > at the technical cutting edge that long. Current IT is novelty-driven, > and has crazy working hours. Buzzword compliance and ability > to pull overtime drive out the old. It's a blue-collar occupation. It has for a lot of people been declasse. What really seems to seperate blue-collar work from professions is that the latter involves manipulation of human perception. The result being that long term success is more about how well you relate to other people than how well you can perform technically. There's no simple performance metric for doctors, lawyers, academics or businessmen -- its all about perception control. From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 17:49:42 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:49:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <200511021454.jA2Es1e11016@tick.javien.com> References: <200511021454.jA2Es1e11016@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On 11/2/05, spike wrote: > > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dirk Bruere > > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents > > > > --- spike wrote: > > > > > I am often seen going about with a bottle of > > > distilled water and a SCUBA tank.... > > In response to a comment by Avantguardian that > went something like: I live in Taxifornia where > socialism is in the air we breathe and the water > we drink. > > LOL! > US 'socialism' is what we Europeans call rabid right wing government. > > > I have always been a fan of rabies. > > {8^D > > Dirk, which country are you from? I am interested England in European politics to see how you guys solve the > pension problem. We yanks have a social security > fund that is supposed to go bust in 2038, but I > heard Germany and France are facing a similar > sitch with more urgency. > > I don't know that either right or left has a > good solution to this. If so I haven't heard it. > > There is the incredibly obvious solution of raising or abolishing the retirement age for state pensions. The alternative is importing tens of millions of immigrants. However, one study for the UK showed that to maintain a suitable 'pensions demographics' our population would have to double over the next 40yrs from 60m to 120m. Anyway, my Transhumanist belief is that within 20-30yrs lifespan will have been radically extended and the idea of people retiring at 60 and spending the next 200+yrs on a state pension (or almost any other for that matter) is ludicrous. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Nov 2 20:04:36 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:04:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102133953.02f27860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Since I will be asked my political views this coming weekend in an interview with a French film on the future, I have outlined my futures politics as 4 points: 1. Nonpartisan. I believe that no political party today advocates solutions for the world's most immediate issues. 2. Neither right nor left, but "forward." Drawing a hard line between conservatives and liberals is ineffective and looking ahead is the best position to take when addressing what the world needs to focus on in the coming decades. 3. Futures Strategy. Designing strategic analysis of issues that society faces and producing alternative "futures" for society to review before voting. The Futures Strategy would provide the means for people - anywhere and at anytime - to learn about issues, possible options for dealing with and solving problems, and to voice their own opinions through a time-efficient and cost-effective P2P architecture. 4. Encouragement of critical thinking. In order to understand issues society needs to be skilled at critical thinking. Thoughts? N Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist - Designer Future Studies, University of Houston President, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture Honorary Vice-Chair, World Transhumanist Association Senior Associate, Foresight Institute Advisor, Alcor Life Extension Foundation If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 21:39:57 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:39:57 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102133953.02f27860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102133953.02f27860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: On 11/2/05, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > Since I will be asked my political views this coming weekend in an > interview with a French film on the future, I have outlined my futures > politics as 4 points: > > 1. Nonpartisan. I believe that no political party today advocates > solutions for the world's most immediate issues. > > 2. Neither right nor left, but "forward." Drawing a hard line between > conservatives and liberals is ineffective and looking ahead is the best > position to take when addressing what the world needs to focus on in the > coming decades. > > 3. Futures Strategy. Designing strategic analysis of issues that society > faces and producing alternative "futures" for society to review before > voting. The Futures Strategy would provide the means for people - anywhere > and at anytime - to learn about issues, possible options for dealing with > and solving problems, and to voice their own opinions through a > time-efficient and cost-effective P2P architecture. > > 4. Encouragement of critical thinking. In order to understand issues > society needs to be skilled at critical thinking. > > Thoughts? Item 1 is a non starter. As long as different people have conflicting interests, or wish to solve a particular problem using different methods, there will be partisan politics. Item 2 - If by left/right is meant community/individual focus then it will never be transcended. Item 3 - This only works if there is a true meritocracy - not democracy. OTOH people can voice their opinions now, except nobody is obliged to listen. Item 4 - A lot more than critical thinking is required. Educational standards in general must rise significantly. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 3 01:00:00 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 19:00:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102133953.02f27860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102185617.04528bf0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 03:39 PM 11/2/2005, you wrote: >On 11/2/05, Natasha Vita-More ><natasha at natasha.cc> wrote: >Since I will be asked my political views this coming weekend in an >interview with a French film on the future, I have outlined my futures >politics as 4 points: > >1. Nonpartisan. I believe that no political party today advocates >solutions for the world's most immediate issues. > >2. Neither right nor left, but "forward." Drawing a hard line between >conservatives and liberals is ineffective and looking ahead is the best >position to take when addressing what the world needs to focus on in the >coming decades. > >3. Futures Strategy. Designing strategic analysis of issues that society >faces and producing alternative "futures" for society to review before >voting. The Futures Strategy would provide the means for people - >anywhere and at anytime - to learn about issues, possible options for >dealing with and solving problems, and to voice their own opinions through >a time-efficient and cost-effective P2P architecture. > >4. Encouragement of critical thinking. In order to understand issues >society needs to be skilled at critical thinking. > >Thoughts? > > >Item 1 is a non starter. In your view. >As long as different people have conflicting interests, or wish to solve a >particular problem using different methods, there will be partisan politics. I don't think so. People can pick and choose what works from different platforms. I have been doing this for years and never voting a party ticket. The point is that not having to vote a party ticket ought to be a statement in itself. >Item 2 - If by left/right is meant community/individual focus then it will >never be transcended. I have no idea what you are talking about. >Item 3 - This only works if there is a true meritocracy - not democracy. >OTOH people can voice their opinions now, except nobody is obliged to listen. No, you are incorrect. >Item 4 - A lot more than critical thinking is required. Educational >standards in general must rise significantly. Yes, indeed. This is sorely needed and may not even be wanted. Neither is change, but people have to do it anyway. Thanks for your comments even though I do not agree with you. N -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 18:11:01 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:11:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] SAO PAULO: November 3, 7:30 pm: Science, Religion and the Future of Humanity Message-ID: <20051101181101.25467.qmail@web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear friends, I am looking forward to seeing you on Thursday, November 3, at the Willis Harman House for the presentation about Science, Religion and the Future of Humanity. Several recent short videos about computer to brain and to eye implants, and about robots will also be shown: www.willisharmanhouse.com.br Futuristically yours, La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Thu Nov 3 03:25:44 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 22:25:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102133953.02f27860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102133953.02f27860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <43698338.4040701@goldenfuture.net> Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Since I will be asked my political views this coming weekend in an > interview with a French film on the future, I have outlined my futures > politics as 4 points: > > 1. Nonpartisan. I believe that no political party today advocates > solutions for the world's most immediate issues. I see you not advocating a "nonpartisan" approach here so much as wishing there was a new party to which you could adhere. As in, if there were a party that did "advocate solutions for the world's most immediate issues", you would be willing to support it. Even supporting Dirk's nascent party is a form of "partisanship" in that sense. > > 2. Neither right nor left, but "forward." Drawing a hard line > between conservatives and liberals is ineffective and looking ahead is > the best position to take when addressing what the world needs to > focus on in the coming decades. I tend to agree. (Although I should point out that I think Dirk in his response was speaking to the idea that traditionally the political Left advocates the interests of the State over the Individual, and traditionally the Right advocates the reverse, in his rather terse reply to you, which you didn't seem to understand.) I think that politics in the future will transcend these pre-French Revolution ideas and move to something else. What that will be, I cannot say, and I daresay none of us can, inasmuch as we will (if our aspirations come to fruition) be several orders of magnitude more intelligent than we are today, and our current political views will seem as quaint to us then as our opinions in kindergarden seem to us today as adults. > > 3. Futures Strategy. Designing strategic analysis of issues that > society faces and producing alternative "futures" for society to > review before voting. The Futures Strategy would provide the means > for people - anywhere and at anytime - to learn about issues, possible > options for dealing with and solving problems, and to voice their own > opinions through a time-efficient and cost-effective P2P architecture. This presupposes two things. 1) That the democratic ideal of a well-informed electorate is superior to the decision-making process achieved by experts in the matter at hand, and, 2) a well-informed electorate is something which is achievable on a practical level. Ignorance of complex issues notwithstanding, we are faced with the fact that most people simply don't care enough to cast a vote, and most of those who do, do so on the basis of ill-defined party loyalties. I direct your attention to the upcoming elections here in the US next Tuesday, which I predict will see as dismal a turnout as any in recent memory (with the possible exception of California, which is seeing a LOT of money being poured into the ballot measures offered in the special election), because people just don't care. > > 4. Encouragement of critical thinking. In order to understand issues > society needs to be skilled at critical thinking. This I wholeheartedly agree with, but you run smack-dab into the face of various religious interests, which considering they comprise 90+% of the population here in the United States, renders this a less-than-optimal strategy, at least here. Look no farther than the renewed debate about evolution, for crying out loud. Africa and Asia seem to be even worse. Perhaps in Europe... > > Thoughts? > > N In the most general sense, we cannot by definition know what posthuman politics will be like, any more than an australopithicus could know what the World Cup would be like. It is also clear that no political ideology is currently aimed at bringing about a posthuman ideology, with any realistic chance of success. Forming a political party with that express purpose seems somewhat premature. What we must do, it seems to me, is to lay the groundwork so that such a movement is seen as inevitable, and be prepared to act as its vanguard, ideologically if nothing else, organizationally if possible. It all comes down to a single question. Does Posthumanity need us? If yes, we need to get organized and get things moving, because there are forces which actively and effectively oppose us. If no, if market forces for human enhancement will inevitably trump the political triumphs of the Leon Kass's and Francis Fukyama's of the world, then just sit back and enjoy the ride. Personally, I reluctantly admit the former scenario to be much more likely. Joseph From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Nov 3 04:07:09 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 20:07:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <43698338.4040701@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: <200511030407.jA347Ae22700@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Bloch ... > ...if market forces > for human enhancement will inevitably trump the political triumphs of > the Leon Kass's and Francis Fukyama's of the world, then just sit back > and enjoy the ride. ... > > Joseph Market forces will eventually smash thru any law. There is a steady market for recreational drugs. All attempts to stop it thru legal means have failed. If human enhancement can be done profitably, there is no need to bother with the politics; it will happen anyway. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 05:12:08 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:42:08 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Geowanking Message-ID: <710b78fc0511022112sdb22be3i@mail.gmail.com> Australians will be scratching out their eyes in horror at this subject line, but apparently this is the name of a list for elite GPS and mapping enthusiasts. I just had to mention it, maybe some of my fellow Aussies can describe what it suggests to them? Our cultures (Aussies and generic US internet) are so close, but there is the odd catastrophic disconnect. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 3479 (http://nanowrimo.org) From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 3 05:21:24 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 23:21:24 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Geowanking In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0511022112sdb22be3i@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0511022112sdb22be3i@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051102231846.01c89490@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:42 PM 11/3/2005 +1030, Emlyn wrote: >Australians will be scratching out their eyes in horror at this >subject line, but apparently this is the name of a list for elite GPS >and mapping enthusiasts. I was horrified enough when I first heard of the Wankel engine. Aussies will also be bemused by the title of the forthcoming crime novel by me and Rory Barnes (PointBlank Press, some month, 200n): I SUPPOSE A ROOT'S OUT OF THE QUESTION. Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Nov 3 08:30:30 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:30:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <200511030407.jA347Ae22700@tick.javien.com> References: <200511030407.jA347Ae22700@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: I don't think just sitting back in good enough! For how much human misery will we sit back and "enjoy the ride"!? Enough misery of the wrong types could lead to catastrophic outcomes that put our fond dreams out of reach for generations. In the US we have 2.3 million in prison I heard very recently. More than any country. More than any country on a per capita basis ever in history. I have heard that around 60% nationwide are in on drug charges, most for simple possession. After decades of such hate-filled abuse it still continues. When will it end? How can we get off our duffs and go be beyond our self-satisfied dreamy assurances in order to end it? - samantha On Nov 2, 2005, at 8:07 PM, spike wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Bloch >> > ... > >> ...if market forces >> for human enhancement will inevitably trump the political triumphs of >> the Leon Kass's and Francis Fukyama's of the world, then just sit >> back >> and enjoy the ride. >> > ... > >> >> Joseph >> > > > Market forces will eventually smash thru any law. There > is a steady market for recreational drugs. All attempts > to stop it thru legal means have failed. If human enhancement > can be done profitably, there is no need to bother with > the politics; it will happen anyway. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 3 08:46:44 2005 From: bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk (bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:46:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Proactionary in court? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051103084645.53229.qmail@web26713.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Has the Proactionary Principle just put it's head above the parapet in British Courts? It was announced this morning that legislation will be introduced to combat the growing Compensation Culture, and in particular the tendency for the number of school trips for children to dwindle as schools are increasingly fearful of being sued if anything should go wrong. New advice to courts will be: "a court which is considering a negligence claim should also take into account any benefit of the activity, and organisers who have taken reasonable precautions will not be held liable." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4401820.stm So finally are potential benefits as well as potential risks going to be balanced in the equation? Julian "Fahrkarte bis zur Endstation!" ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 3 09:21:54 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 01:21:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Geowanking In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0511022112sdb22be3i@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051103092154.95865.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > Australians will be scratching out their eyes in > horror at this > subject line, but apparently this is the name of a > list for elite GPS > and mapping enthusiasts. I just had to mention it, > maybe some of my > fellow Aussies can describe what it suggests to > them? Our cultures > (Aussies and generic US internet) are so close, but > there is the odd > catastrophic disconnect. Perhaps it is an obscure reference to a oft repeated, and possibly urban-mythological, story of a school teacher who had a student turn in a history report about how Magellan circumcised the Earth with a 100 ft clipper. ;) The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From gregburch at gregburch.net Thu Nov 3 13:03:28 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 07:03:28 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [I wish I knew how to insert comments INTO an html mail message, but I don't...] Below, you say, "Item 2 - If by left/right is meant community/individual focus then it will never be transcended." Here's the problem with "left/right" from my perspective (and that of many other people, although they may not be able to identify why that particular dichotomy irks them so): The origin of left/right was, as we all know, the accident of how proponents of the French Revolution and those of the ancien regime sorted their seating out in the Estates General. As a political reality of that particular point in time and space, the description made sense and carried useful political meaning. Unfortunately, from that day forward there has been a tension between two axes of meaning: 1)Conservatism vs. Progressivism and 2) Individualism vs. Collectivism. It is this tension that has caused me to utterly reject the left/right dichotomy for over twenty years, which leads to an almost constant misunderstanding of my own political views by people in the political mainstream who accept the left/right concept as something with continuing meaning. For instance, the mainstream "right" in America tends to be a mish-mash of conservative and individualist elements that are deeply inconsistent on the level of principles and, likelwise, the "left" in America has become increasingly conservative in its collectivist approach to things like race relations. Thus it is common for me to have people on the "left" think of me as being on the "right" and visa versa. Natasha is, in my opinion, exactly right in strongly rejecting this one-dimensional approach to politics. GB -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Dirk Bruere Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 3:40 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics On 11/2/05, Natasha Vita-More wrote: Since I will be asked my political views this coming weekend in an interview with a French film on the future, I have outlined my futures politics as 4 points: 1. Nonpartisan. I believe that no political party today advocates solutions for the world's most immediate issues. 2. Neither right nor left, but "forward." Drawing a hard line between conservatives and liberals is ineffective and looking ahead is the best position to take when addressing what the world needs to focus on in the coming decades. 3. Futures Strategy. Designing strategic analysis of issues that society faces and producing alternative "futures" for society to review before voting. The Futures Strategy would provide the means for people - anywhere and at anytime - to learn about issues, possible options for dealing with and solving problems, and to voice their own opinions through a time-efficient and cost-effective P2P architecture. 4. Encouragement of critical thinking. In order to understand issues society needs to be skilled at critical thinking. Thoughts? Item 1 is a non starter. As long as different people have conflicting interests, or wish to solve a particular problem using different methods, there will be partisan politics. Item 2 - If by left/right is meant community/individual focus then it will never be transcended. Item 3 - This only works if there is a true meritocracy - not democracy. OTOH people can voice their opinions now, except nobody is obliged to listen. Item 4 - A lot more than critical thinking is required. Educational standards in general must rise significantly. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 13:58:44 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:58:44 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <43698338.4040701@goldenfuture.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051102133953.02f27860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <43698338.4040701@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: On 11/3/05, Joseph Bloch wrote: > > 2. Neither right nor left, but "forward." Drawing a hard line > > between conservatives and liberals is ineffective and looking ahead is > > the best position to take when addressing what the world needs to > > focus on in the coming decades. > > > I tend to agree. (Although I should point out that I think Dirk in his > response was speaking to the idea that traditionally the political Left > advocates the interests of the State over the Individual, and > traditionally the Right advocates the reverse, in his rather terse reply > to you, which you didn't seem to understand.) I think that politics in > the future will transcend these pre-French Revolution ideas and move to > something else. What that will be, I cannot say, and I daresay none of I strongly disagree. If anything posthumanity will move in two diametrically opposite directions which correspond to the extremes of left and right - namely hive mind versus self sufficient individual. Dirk From gregburch at gregburch.net Thu Nov 3 14:18:42 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:18:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Proactionary in court? In-Reply-To: <20051103084645.53229.qmail@web26713.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk > > Has the Proactionary Principle just put it's head > above the parapet in British Courts? > > It was announced this morning that legislation will be > introduced to combat the growing Compensation Culture, > and in particular the tendency for the number of > school trips for children to dwindle as schools are > increasingly fearful of being sued if anything should > go wrong. New advice to courts will be: > > "a court which is considering a negligence claim > should also take into account any benefit of the > activity, and organisers who have taken reasonable > precautions will not be held liable." > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4401820.stm > > So finally are potential benefits as well as potential > risks going to be balanced in the equation? > > Julian Risk-benefit balancing has been an explicit part of U.S. tort liability law for a long time, in the area of what we call "products liability." Here's a discussion that includes elements of risk-benefit balancing in the most recent Restatement of that law: http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Aug/1/129315.html Look at the quotations from the official commentary to Chapter 1. As the Restatements often do, there is a tendency here to annunciate from "on high" without full recognition of some of the difficulties of applying the principles articulated to specific cases. In practice, courts have been struggling with the "utlitiy" aspect of this law for its entire four decade history. GB From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Nov 3 14:57:14 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 06:57:14 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511031457.jA3EvDe06244@tick.javien.com> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics > > ... When will it end? How can we get off our duffs and go > be beyond our self-satisfied dreamy assurances in order to end it? > > - samantha It will end as soon as we get enough politicians to recognize that market forces overpower legal pressures. We might be making progress in that direction, but it is hard to tell. I expect there will be growing market pressure to get most of the dopers out of prison: we need their labor and taxes, as well as the cell they occupy. spike From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 15:24:05 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:24:05 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <200511031457.jA3EvDe06244@tick.javien.com> References: <200511031457.jA3EvDe06244@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On 11/3/05, spike wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics > > > > ... When will it end? How can we get off our duffs and go > > be beyond our self-satisfied dreamy assurances in order to end it? > > > > - samantha > > > It will end as soon as we get enough politicians > to recognize that market forces overpower legal > pressures. > > We might be making progress in that direction, > but it is hard to tell. I expect there will be > growing market pressure to get most of the dopers > out of prison: we need their labor and taxes, as > well as the cell they occupy. There are two types of market forces here. The diffuse kind, to which you refer. And the kind that is concentrated in the businesses making money out of the existing system. The latter exerts far more power on the legislative process even though it is far less quantitatively than the former. It's not just straight economics, but the concentration of economic power within narrow special interests that matters. Dirk From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 3 16:31:37 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:31:37 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Geosnipping In-Reply-To: <20051103092154.95865.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com> References: <710b78fc0511022112sdb22be3i@mail.gmail.com> <20051103092154.95865.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051103103017.01dcc718@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:21 AM 11/3/2005 -0800, Avantguardian wrote: >Magellan circumcised the Earth with a 100 ft >clipper. ;) I heard it was a 40-ft cutter. Damien Broderick From anissimov at singinst.org Thu Nov 3 17:01:52 2005 From: anissimov at singinst.org (Michael Anissimov) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:01:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google maps + Social software mashup Message-ID: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> Fellow transhumanists, I found an interesting social software tool that allows you to share your picture and location with others. It's called Frappr... quite interesting. I created this one for transhumanists: http://www.frappr.com/transhumanists Just another tendril connecting the virtual with the physical - feel free to add yourself! (You might want to state your Skype name or MSN/AIM name as well.) Consider creating one for your favorite transhumanist spinoff sect. Be careful with your shoutout - once you say something, only an admin can delete it. Have fun! -- Michael Anissimov http://singinst.org/ Advocacy Director, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 3 17:16:38 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:16:38 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051101133704.072e3d40@unreasonable.com> References: <200510300620.j9U6K5e04458@tick.javien.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20051031092934.02b00860@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <8d71341e0510311059n5d83ad93u94cf1775724e926b@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051031204311.071e1cc0@unreasonable.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051101093204.04e4e688@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051101133704.072e3d40@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051103111105.04cd7e68@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 02:26 PM 11/1/2005, David wrote: >Max wrote: > >>How does that prove your claim? You think that because several businesses >>have or are using "EXI' that we have no rights to ExI? That's mistaken. >>No one else that I checked is using it in a context that is likely to >>cause confusion with our organization. > >You don't have a registered federal trademark for ExI, while in fact >several other organizations do, including EXi Corp. > >For that matter, I see no registered federal trademarks owned by either >Extropy Institute or Max More. An incorporation means that the name of a business is registered with the Secretary of State and legally "incorporated" with Articles of Incorporation. When anyone files for a new business, he or she must check with the Secretary of State to make sure that the name is not already incorporated. The Secretary of State's office very carefully checks all business names to make sure no one is using the name of another business to conduct the same or a similar business. The law states that a person must determine the Availability of a Company Name. Search Name Availability to ensure that your newly formed corporation or business name is not already used by another business entity. The Name Availability search will help you avoid corporation name conflicts and ensure that your company name is distinct. Branding is another form of producing and marketing a business name and product or service. Once this has occurred, it is bad business practice to use a name that has already been branded. In most cases, it is not done out of common sense and professional courtesy. In other cases, some people may do this to produce a negative outcome and if it damages the original business in a way that affects its products, services and well being in the community, it can become a legal action and these are most often settled out of court wherein the infringing party coughs up a lot of money and backs off having lost good standing in the public eye and produced a lot of bad feelings and even enemies, which is not a smart business practice. Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist - Designer Future Studies, University of Houston President, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture Honorary Vice-Chair, World Transhumanist Association Senior Associate, Foresight Institute Advisor, Alcor Life Extension Foundation If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerson at singinst.org Thu Nov 3 18:58:40 2005 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:58:40 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Social software + Google maps mashup In-Reply-To: <20051103171304.69308.qmail@web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200511031858.jA3Iwee06275@tick.javien.com> I hope everyone will take advantage of this by adding their location. It's a simple way to track where transhumanists are located. http://www.frappr.com/transhumanists Thanks for the heads-up, Michael. ~~ Tyler Emerson | Executive Director | The Singularity Institute Box 50182 | Palo Alto, CA 94303 | T-F: 866.667.2524 emerson at singinst.org | http://www.singinst.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-sl4 at sl4.org [mailto:owner-sl4 at sl4.org] On Behalf Of Phil Goetz > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:13 AM > To: sl4 at sl4.org > Subject: [inbox] Re: Social software + Google maps mashup > > > > --- Michael Anissimov wrote: > > > Fellow transhumanists, > > > > I found an interesting social software tool that allows you to share > > your picture and location with others. It's called Frappr... quite > > interesting. I created this one for transhumanists: > > > > http://www.frappr.com/transhumanists > > God damn it. I'd been planning to do this for almost 10 years, > but Mapquest and Mapblast's licensing terms were too restrictive. > > - Phil > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > http://farechase.yahoo.com From reason at longevitymeme.org Thu Nov 3 21:27:55 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:27:55 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] $1 Million Donation Made To the Mprize For Anti-Aging Research Message-ID: <200511031527.AA402587922@longevitymeme.org> http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000655.php Yes, you read that right: Mprize, $1 million donation, and I have it from Dave Gobel that the cashier's check just cleared today. Wow. This was somewhat out of the blue, and certainly far ahead of our expectations for progress in the rest of 2005! Let me be one of the first to thank the anonymous donor for his or her generosity and for greatly raising the level of vindication experienced by the Mprize volunteers and other donors. This is a big step forward for efforts to vitalize serious scientific progress towards a cure for aging. There is a long way to go yet - and more seven figure donations, I hope - but thank you, anonymous donor, for pushing the best present day effort into the major leagues. From the press release draft (the final version should be out on the wires sometime following this post, and the Mprize website updated soon): The anonymous $1 million donor cited a growing understanding of the real possibility of curing aging in our lifetimes as his reason for making such a tremendous investment. He first learned about de Grey's work from the popular press, even though most journalists take the easy path of characterizing de Grey ? a respected, widely published figure in the scientific community ? as an odd eccentric. The donor followed the Fight Aging! blog ( http://www.fightaging.org ) and the online newsletter of The Longevity Meme ( http://www.longevitymeme.org ), both advocates of de Grey's work and the Mprize in particular. In the Mprize, this donor saw a popular movement in the making, a movement of people who were not to be discouraged by the conservatism and lack of action in ivory tower gerontology. Every dollar in the prize fund represents a voice, calling for the scientific community to take the final steps towards real, working anti-aging medicine. So, as many others have done, this anonymous donor realized that he could help the Mprize and thus help the fight against degenerative aging and age-related disease ? medical conditions that claim more than 100,000 lives each and every day. So he sent a cashier's check to the address listed on the Mprize website ? a check for $1 million. I should extend thanks to our newest anonymous donor for increasing my personal levels of vindication as well. And once again, many thanks to everyone who has supported the Mprize over the past few years, building it to the level at which it can attract this sort of dedication from wealthy philanthropists. As Mprize executive director Kevin Perrott said earlier, "Nothing is going to bother me today." From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 00:20:44 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:50:44 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google maps + Social software mashup In-Reply-To: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> References: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc0511031620i33cc2027u@mail.gmail.com> Very cool. I notice a lot of colourful characters from round these here parts have turned up there. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 5187 (http://nanowrimo.org) On 04/11/05, Michael Anissimov wrote: > Fellow transhumanists, > > I found an interesting social software tool that allows you to share > your picture and location with others. It's called Frappr... quite > interesting. I created this one for transhumanists: > > http://www.frappr.com/transhumanists > > Just another tendril connecting the virtual with the physical - feel > free to add yourself! (You might want to state your Skype name or > MSN/AIM name as well.) Consider creating one for your favorite > transhumanist spinoff sect. Be careful with your shoutout - once you > say something, only an admin can delete it. Have fun! > > -- > Michael Anissimov http://singinst.org/ > Advocacy Director, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Nov 4 01:18:06 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:18:06 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Betfair looks to get Australian licence Message-ID: <06d901c5e0dd$9c33c580$8998e03c@homepc> Those interested in Robin's ideas futures might be interested in this. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17134214%255E2702,00.html Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Fri Nov 4 00:59:39 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:59:39 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Transhumanist napster manifests. In-Reply-To: <200511031527.AA402587922@longevitymeme.org> References: <200511031527.AA402587922@longevitymeme.org> Message-ID: <200511032259.39797.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> I have defended twice here that the best way to get funds to transhumanist goals is taking the transhuman memes to millionaires. I still beleive this idea, and this 1 Million dollars donation makes me feel 1 million dollars nearer to be right about it. Someone called for the transhumanist napster, in the sense of something that really pushes transhumanism foward. I beleive that nothing can do that better than call to arms for billionaires and millionaires. Once there is money on it, we will be able to atract public attention. And voila, more money, more lifes saved. Diego Caleiro From matus at matus1976.com Fri Nov 4 05:04:20 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:04:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00f101c5e0fd$3ab0f330$6b01a8c0@hplaptop> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics > > dreams out of reach for generations. In the US we have 2.3 million > in prison I heard very recently. More than any country. More than > any country on a per capita basis ever in history. I have heard that > around 60% nationwide are in on drug charges, most for simple > possession. After decades of such hate-filled abuse it still > > - samantha > Ah another one of my favorite statistics. Really Samantha, does the US imprison a higher percentage of it's population than Vietnam? Burma? Cuba? Saudi Arabia? And where exactly do these statistics come from, their respective ministries of honorable and reliable information? Do we ever get to see official sources for these statistics? I think such a statement should at least be qualified as 'The US imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than any other westernized liberal democracy' or something to that effect, but to say it imprisons more than any country in the world is clearly disingenuous and egregious in the face of the millions of people who rot in the hell holes and gulags of the murderous dictatorships of the world. Additionally it should be noted that we also have a subculture that glorifies violence as a means to acquire value. England has a similar problem with it's 'yobs', and this, in addition to the ridiculous criminalization of drug use, contributes to our prison populations. Matus From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Nov 4 12:23:39 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:23:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <00f101c5e0fd$3ab0f330$6b01a8c0@hplaptop> References: <00f101c5e0fd$3ab0f330$6b01a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: On Nov 3, 2005, at 9:04 PM, Matus wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins >> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics >> >> dreams out of reach for generations. In the US we have 2.3 million >> in prison I heard very recently. More than any country. More than >> any country on a per capita basis ever in history. I have heard that >> around 60% nationwide are in on drug charges, most for simple >> possession. After decades of such hate-filled abuse it still >> >> - samantha >> >> > > Ah another one of my favorite statistics. Really Samantha, does > the US > imprison a higher percentage of it's population than Vietnam? Burma? > Cuba? Saudi Arabia? And where exactly do these statistics come from, > their respective ministries of honorable and reliable information? > I did some digging in case this was the regurgitation of some mental lint that has been floating around the net. It turns out that the any other country in history part is almost certainly bogus. However, as far as is documented, we have more people in prison than any other country today and we have more people per capita in prison. From the Straight Dope: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040206.html > Do we ever get to see official sources for these statistics? > > I think such a statement should at least be qualified as 'The US > imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than any other > westernized liberal democracy' or something to that effect, but to say > it imprisons more than any country in the world is clearly > disingenuous > and egregious in the face of the millions of people who rot in the > hell > holes and gulags of the murderous dictatorships of the world. > Which precisely do you have in mind? > Additionally it should be noted that we also have a subculture that > glorifies violence as a means to acquire value. England has a similar > problem with it's 'yobs', and this, in addition to the ridiculous > criminalization of drug use, contributes to our prison populations. > Not really. The rates of violence are down in much of the country. Only a small part of the prison population is in for violent crime. Homicide, Aggravated Assault, Kidnapping combined came to 3.2% in 2005 according to the Bureau of Prisons. Throw in Burglary, Larceny and Property Offenses and you get up to 7.2%. So your hypothesis is inconsistent with the data. - samantha From hemm at openlink.com.br Fri Nov 4 13:03:09 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:03:09 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Social software + Google maps mashup References: <200511031858.jA3Iwee06275@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <009301c5e140$1ad88080$fe00a8c0@HEMM> And then the government will know where we all live... :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Emerson" To: Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:58 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Social software + Google maps mashup > I hope everyone will take advantage of this by adding their location. It's a > simple way to track where transhumanists are located. > > http://www.frappr.com/transhumanists > > Thanks for the heads-up, Michael. From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Nov 4 14:26:25 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:26:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google maps + Social software mashup In-Reply-To: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> References: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> Message-ID: Thanks for doing this! Perhaps it will spark some activity on Exi-East! Does anyone here Flickr? It could be a nice meme-generator to have someone Flickr the large >H events. Who are we if we're not leveraging these things? ]3 On Nov 3, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Michael Anissimov wrote: > Fellow transhumanists, > > I found an interesting social software tool that allows you to > share your picture and location with others. It's called Frappr... > quite interesting. I created this one for transhumanists: > > http://www.frappr.com/transhumanists > > Just another tendril connecting the virtual with the physical - > feel free to add yourself! (You might want to state your Skype > name or MSN/AIM name as well.) Consider creating one for your > favorite transhumanist spinoff sect. Be careful with your shoutout > - once you say something, only an admin can delete it. Have fun! > > -- > Michael Anissimov http://singinst.org/ > Advocacy Director, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Nov 4 12:38:02 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:38:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <00f101c5e0fd$3ab0f330$6b01a8c0@hplaptop> References: <00f101c5e0fd$3ab0f330$6b01a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <3ADB3B5E-E76F-4139-A3D7-82CF431D2674@mac.com> Here are a few interesting tidbits about the War against Pot in particular that I picked up at: http://www.mpp.org/prohfact.html Marijuana Prohibition Facts (2005) Very few Americans had even heard about marijuana when it was first federally prohibited in 1937. Today, between 95 and 100 million Americans admit to having tried it. 1,2 According to government-funded researchers, high school seniors consistently report that marijuana is easily available, despite decades of a nationwide drug war. With little variation, every year about 85% consider marijuana ?fairly easy? or ?very easy? to obtain. 3 Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that more U.S. high school students currently smoke marijuana, which is completely unregulated, than smoke cigarettes, which are sold by regulated businesses. 4 There have been over seven million marijuana arrests in the United States since 1993, including 755,186 arrests in 2003?an all-time record. One person is arrested for marijuana every 42 seconds. About 88% of all marijuana arrests are for possession?not manufacture or distribution. 5 Every comprehensive, objective government commission that has examined the marijuana phenomenon throughout the past 100 years has recommended that adults should not be criminalized for using marijuana. 6 Cultivation of even one marijuana plant is a federal felony. Lengthy mandatory minimum sentences apply to myriad offenses. For example, a person must serve a five-year mandatory minimum sentence if federally convicted of cultivating 100 marijuana plants?including seedlings or bug-infested, sickly plants. This is longer than the average sentences for auto theft and manslaughter! 7 A one-year minimum prison sentence is mandated for ?distributing? or ?manufacturing? controlled substances within 1,000 feet of any school, university, or playground. Most areas in a city fall within these ?drug-free zones.? An adult who lives three blocks from a university is subject to a one-year mandatory minimum sentence for selling an ounce of marijuana to another adult?or even growing one marijuana plant in his or her basement. 8 Approximately 77,000 marijuana offenders are in prison or jail right now. 9 A recent study of prisons in four Midwestern states found that approximately one in ten male inmates reported that that they had been raped while in prison. 10 Rates of rape and sexual assault against women prisoners, who are most likely to be abused by male staff members, have been reported to be as high as 27 percent in some institutions. 11 Civil forfeiture laws allow police to seize the money and property of suspected marijuana offenders?charges need not even be filed. The claim is against the property, not the defendant. The owner must then prove that the property is ?innocent.? Enforcement abuses stemming from forfeiture laws abound. 12 MPP estimates that the war on marijuana consumers costs taxpayers nearly $12 billion annually. 13 Many patients and their doctors find marijuana a useful medicine as part of the treatment for AIDS, cancer, glaucoma, multiple sclerosis, and other ailments. Yet the federal government allows only seven patients in the United States to use marijuana as a medicine, through a program now closed to new applicants. Federal laws treat all other patients currently using medical marijuana as criminals. Doctors are presently allowed to prescribe cocaine and morphine?but not marijuana. 14,15 Organizations that have endorsed medical access to marijuana include: the AIDS Action Council, American Academy of Family Physicians, American Public Health Association, American Academy of HIV Medicine, American Nurses Association, Lymphoma Foundation of America, National Association of People With AIDS, the New England Journal of Medicine, the state medical associations of New York, California, Florida and Rhode Island, and many others. A few of the many editorial boards that have endorsed medical access to marijuana include: Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, Miami Herald, New York Times, Orange County Register, USA Today, Baltimore?s Sun, and The Los Angeles Times. Since 1996, a majority of voters in Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, the District of Columbia, Maine, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington state have voted in favor of ballot initiatives to remove criminal penalties for seriously ill people who grow or possess medical marijuana. Seventy-two percent of Americans believe that marijuana users should not be jailed. Eighty percent support legal access to medical marijuana for seriously ill adults. 2 ?Decriminalization? involves the removal of criminal penalties for possession of marijuana for personal use. Small fines may be issued (somewhat similarly to traffic tickets), but there is typically no arrest, incarceration, or criminal record. Marijuana is presently decriminalized in 11 states?California, Colorado, Maine, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, and Oregon. In these states, cultivation and distribution remain criminal offenses. Decriminalization saves a tremendous amount in enforcement costs. California saves $100 million per year. 16 A 2001 National Research Council study sponsored by the U.S. government found ?little apparent relationship between the severity of sanctions prescribed for drug use and prevalence or frequency of use, and ... perceived legal risk explains very little in the variance of individual drug use.? The primary evidence cited came from comparisons between states that have and have not decriminalized marijuana. 17 In the Netherlands, where adult possession and purchase of small amounts of marijuana are allowed under a regulated system, the rate of marijuana use by teenagers is far lower than in the U.S. 3,18 Under a regulated system, licensed merchants have an incentive to check ID and avoid selling to minors. Such a system also separates marijuana from the trade in hard drugs such as cocaine and heroin. ?Zero tolerance? policies against ?drugged driving? can result in ?DUI? convictions of drivers who are not intoxicated at all. Trace amounts of THC metabolites?detected by commonly used tests?can linger in blood and urine for weeks after any psychoactive effects have worn off. This is equivalent to convicting someone of ?drunk driving? weeks after he or she drank one beer. 19 The arbitrary criminalization of tens of millions of Americans who consume marijuana results in a large-scale lack of respect for the law and the entire criminal justice system. Marijuana prohibition subjects users to added health hazards: ? Adulterants, contaminants, and impurities?Marijuana purchased through criminal markets is not subject to the same quality control standards as are legal consumer goods. Illicit marijuana may be adulterated with much more damaging substances; contaminated with pesticides, herbicides, or fertilizers; and/or infected with molds, fungi, or bacteria. ? Inhalation of hot smoke?One well-established hazard of marijuana consumption is the fact that smoke from burning plant material is bad for the respiratory system. Laws that prohibit the sale or possession of paraphernalia make it difficult to obtain and use devices such as vaporizers, which can reduce these risks. 20 Because vigorous enforcement of the marijuana laws forces the toughest, most dangerous criminals to take over marijuana trafficking, prohibition links marijuana sales to violence, predatory crime, and terrorism. Prohibition invites corruption within the criminal justice system by giving officials easy, tempting opportunities to accept bribes, steal and sell marijuana, and plant evidence on innocent people. Because marijuana is typically used in private, trampling the Bill of Rights is a routine part of marijuana law enforcement?e.g., use of drug dogs, urine tests, phone taps, government informants, curbside garbage searches, military helicopters, and infrared heat detectors. NOTES 1. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 2003, Table G.1. 2. Time/CNN poll of adults, Time, Nov. 4, 2002. Forty-seven percent said they had tried marijuana at least once. 3. Johnston, Lloyd D., O?Malley, Patrick M., Bachman, Jerald G., and Schulenberg, John. E., Monitoring the Future, National Results on Adolescent Drug Abuse: Overview of Key Findings, 2003, National Institute on Drug Abuse, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2004. 4. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance -- United States, 2003, May 21, 2004, MMWR 2004:3(No. SS-2), tables 20 and 28. 5. Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports, Crime in the United States, annually. 6. For example, Report of the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission, 1894; The Panama Canal Zone Military Investigations, 1925; The Marihuana Problem in the City of New York (LaGuardia Committee Report), 1944; Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding (Nixon-Shafer Report), 1972; An Analysis of Marijuana Policy (National Academy of Sciences), 1982; Cannabis, Our Position for a Canadian Public Policy (Report of the Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs), 2002, and others. 7. 21USC841(b)(1)(B); 1996 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Guidelines, U.S. Sentencing Commission, 1997; p. 24. 8. 21USC860(a); report from Congressional Research Service, June 22, 1995. 9. Estimated by MPP, based on Prisoners in 2001, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice; Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear 2001, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice; Profile of Jail Inmates, 1996, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice; Substance Abuse and Treatment, State and Federal Prisoners, 1997, Bureau of Justice Statistics. 10. Struckman-Johnson, Cindy, and Struckman-Johnson, David, Sexual Coercion Rates in Seven Midwestern Prisons for Men, The Prison Journal, December 2000, pp. 379-90. 11. Struckman-Johnson, Cindy, and Struckman-Johnson, David, ?Summary of Sexual Coercion Data,? for the conference ?Not Part of the Penalty: Ending Prisoner Rape,? Oct. 19, 2001. 12. U.S. Rep. Henry Hyde (R?IL), Forfeiting Our Property Rights: Is Your Property Safe From Seizure? Cato Institute, 1995. 13. In 2002, the federal government spent $18.8 billion on the ?drug war.? Approximately 53% ($9.964 billion) was spent on enforcement, court, and prison expenses, with the rest used for treatment and education (National Drug Control Strategy, Office of National Drug Control Policy, 2002). In 1991?the most recent year for which data are available?state and local governments spent a total of nearly $16 billion, of which about 80% was used for enforcement, court, and prison costs (National Drug Control Strategy, Office of National Drug Control Policy, 1994). State and local spending is estimated to have increased to $20 billion annually in 2002 (?Drug War Retreat? The Pentagon?s Double-Edged Plan to Scale Back,? Daytona Beach News- Journal, Nov. 9, 2002). Hence, the total annual criminal justice system expenditure for federal, state, and local governments is $25.964 billion ($9.964 billion + $16 billion [$20 billion x 80%]). While this total annual expenditure is not broken down by specific drugs, marijuana crimes account for 45% of all drug arrests (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Crime in the United States, 2003). Assuming that expense and arrest percentages roughly match, the war on marijuana consumers costs taxpayers $11.68 billion annually. 14. Grinspoon, Lester, M.D., and Bakalar B., J.D., ?Marijuana as Medicine: A Plea for Reconsideration,? Journal of the American Medical Association, June 21, 1995. 15. Marijuana Policy Project, Medical Marijuana Briefing Paper, 2004. 16. Aldrich, Michael, Ph.D., and Mikuriya, Tod, M.D., ?Savings in California Marijuana Law Enforcement Costs Attributable to the Moscone Act of 1976?A Summary,? Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, Vol. 20 (1), Jan.?March 1988; pp. 75-81. 17. National Research Council, Informing America?s Policy on Illegal Drugs: What We Don?t Know Keeps Hurting Us, National Academy Press, 2001; pp. 192-93. 18. Abraham, Manja D., Kaal, Hendrien L., and Cohen, Peter D.A., Licit and illicit drug use in the Netherlands 2001. Amsterdam: CEDRO/ Mets en Schilt, 2002. 19. Swann, P., ?The Real Risk of Being Killed When Driving Whilst Impaired by Cannabis,? Australian Studies of Cannabis and Accident Risk, 2000. 20. Mirken, Bruce, ?Vaporizers for Medical Marijuana,? AIDS Treatment News, Issue #327, September 17, 1999. Revised 12/2004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anissimov at singinst.org Fri Nov 4 15:38:29 2005 From: anissimov at singinst.org (Michael Anissimov) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 07:38:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience Institute DVDs available Message-ID: <436B8075.9090201@singinst.org> Talks given at the recent inaugural symposium for the Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience Institute (a formerly independent non-profit funded by Jeff Hawkins, now part of UC Berkeley) are now available as a DVD. To order, send $5 to: *DVD - Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience* Attn: Guadalupe P. Brandon University of California 132 Barker Hall #3190 Berkeley, CA 94720-3190 USA Make the check out to "UC Regents". Talks included are: *Horace Barlow, Cambridge University* "The Roles of Theory, Commonsense, and Guesswork in Neuroscience" *Dan Kersten, University of Minnesota* "Human Object Perception: Theory, Psychophysics & Imaging" *Sue Becker, McMaster University* "The role of the hippocampus in memory, contextual gating, stress and depression" *Florentin Worgotter, University of Goettingen* "Learning in Neurons and Robots" *Discussion* The Role and Future Prospects for Math/Computational Theories in Neuroscience *David Heeger, New York University* "What fMRI Can Tell Us about How Visual Cortex Works" *Kevan Martin, ETH/UNI Zurich* "Canonical Circuits for Neocortex" *Terry Sejnowski, Salk Institute* "Dendritic Darwinism" *Jeff Hawkins, Numenta* "Prospects and Problems of Cortical Theory" This is the cutting edge of neuroscience research. Seems quite fascinating. I can't wait to check it out! -- Michael Anissimov http://singinst.org/ Advocacy Director, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:40:41 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:40:41 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Social software + Google maps mashup In-Reply-To: <009301c5e140$1ad88080$fe00a8c0@HEMM> References: <200511031858.jA3Iwee06275@tick.javien.com> <009301c5e140$1ad88080$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: On 11/4/05, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > And then the government will know where we all live... :-) I think the tax man already knows where I live... Apart from that, my home address, pic and phone number have been available on the Net for years. Dirk From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Nov 4 19:13:44 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:13:44 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <00f101c5e0fd$3ab0f330$6b01a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: On 11/3/05 9:04 PM, "Matus" wrote: > > Ah another one of my favorite statistics. Really Samantha, does the US > imprison a higher percentage of it's population than Vietnam? Burma? > Cuba? Saudi Arabia? And where exactly do these statistics come from, > their respective ministries of honorable and reliable information? The discrepancy is in the definition of "prison". There are still many authoritarian countries, including ones listed above, where many/most people not allowed to live their province or village on pain of death. Or where getting permission to leave requires that the government holds a family member hostage to guarantee that you return. There are no "prisons" or "cells" or "guards" per se, but the country is effectively a prison. For most modern western countries, there is a clear delineation between the penal system and the rest of society and some nominal presumption of innocence, and the statistics are based on these assumptions. J. Andrew Rogers From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 5 02:14:19 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 20:14:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Blacklight pops up again Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104201301.01ceb280@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Still sounds like crap: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1627424,00.html < Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at Asheville (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We went in with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if this were true, in my position as head of a research institution, I really wouldn't want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be remembered as the person who derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment into something that wasn't real." But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists are looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our professional reputations on the line as far as that goes." > From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 02:21:08 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 02:21:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Blacklight pops up again In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104201301.01ceb280@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104201301.01ceb280@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/05, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Still sounds like crap: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1627424,00.html > > < Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at Asheville > (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was allowed > unfettered > access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We went in with a healthy > amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if this were true, > in my position as head of a research institution, I really wouldn't want > to > make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be remembered as the person > who > derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment into something that wasn't > real." > > But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt about > Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists are looking at > Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr > Booker > and I have both put our professional reputations on the line as far as > that > goes." > > And if it works it will still sound like crap. One of the interesting things is that the guy has published papers that show that classical physics can reproduce the findings of QM, plus a bit more. Anyway, we will see eventually one way or another. Experiment is king. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 02:27:30 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:27:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511050227.jA52RYe01417@tick.javien.com> > On 11/3/05 9:04 PM, "Matus" wrote: > > > > ... does the US imprison a higher percentage of it's population than Vietnam? Burma? Cuba? Saudi Arabia? ... ... In most of human history on most of this planet, they probably would just shoot or hang the criminals. With the modern legal system, there has never been a better time than now or a better place than the west to be a criminal. spike From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Sat Nov 5 03:10:34 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:10:34 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics References: <200511041900.jA4J0Be27860@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <006401c5e1b6$823695c0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> From: "Matus" Wrote > -----Original Message-----On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > > In the US we have 2.3 million > in prison I heard very recently. More than any country. More than > any country on a per capita basis ever in history. I have heard that > around 60% nationwide are in on drug charges, most for simple > possession. After decades of such hate-filled abuse it still > > - samantha > Ah another one of my favorite statistics. Really Samantha, does the US imprison a higher percentage of it's population than Vietnam? Burma? Cuba? Saudi Arabia? And where exactly do these statistics come from, their respective ministries of honorable and reliable information? Do we ever get to see official sources for these statistics? The UN website has some independent reports: http://www.unicri.it/wwk/related/pni/docs/2001/walmsley.pdf You can also find this short statement at the UN website: World Prison Population - Overview ...In order to fully understand the magnitude of the problem, it is important first of all to have an appreciation of the number of prisoners incarcerated world-wide. The second edition (2000) of the World Prison Population List shows that over 8 ? million people are held in penal institutions throughout the world, either as pre-trial detainees (remand prisoners) or having been convicted and sentenced. Half of these are in the United States, Russia and China, and the first two countries also exhibit the highest prison population rates... Googling for 'UN statistics on imprisonment by country' is quite fruitful. Jack Parkinson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 04:40:19 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 22:40:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google maps + Social software mashup In-Reply-To: References: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> Message-ID: <5366105b0511042040l65539632x43a5d68c541c7745@mail.gmail.com> On 11/4/05, Bret Kulakovich wrote: [snip] > > Does anyone here Flickr? It could be a nice meme-generator to have > someone Flickr the large >H events. Who are we if we're not > leveraging these things? > Brad K. DeLong, Jay Dugger, and the WTA (as transhumanism) all have accounts on Flickr. -- Jay Dugger http://www.redcross.org Please donate if you can. From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 5 05:36:23 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 06:36:23 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] US Prison Population (was Futures politics) Message-ID: >Do we ever get to see official sources for these statistics? The Economist has a long article on this topic (I seem to remember more than one published in this magazine on this topic, but I cannot find it, so maybe I was thinking of another source) "Justice in America : Too many convicts" Aug 8th 2002 http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1270755 And an article from Business Week about the costs http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/feb2005/nf20050228_1996_db013.htm Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "Never squat with your spurs on." -- Texan Proverb From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 5 05:41:04 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 23:41:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104234007.01d28b58@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Spot the difference: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9912186/ http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-11/04/content_3730276.htm From scerir at libero.it Sat Nov 5 07:18:30 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:18:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Weinberg on multiverse References: Message-ID: <000a01c5e1d9$1feb8a10$b6c71b97@administxl09yj> Steven Weinberg about the 'Multiverse' in a long paper here: http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0511037 "It must be acknowledged that there is a big di erence in the degree of confidence we can have in neo-Darwinism and in the multiverse. It is settled, as well as anything in science is ever settled, that the adaptations of living things on earth have come into being through natural selection acting on random undirected inheritable variations. About the multiverse, it is appropriate to keep an open mind, and opinions among scientists differ widely. In the Austin airport on the way to this meeting I noticed for sale the October issue of a magazine called 'Astronomy', having on the cover the headline "Why You Live in Multiple Universes." Inside I found a report of a discussion at a conference at Stanford, at which Martin Rees said that he was sufficiently confident about the multiverse to bet his dog's life on it, while Andrei Linde said he would bet his own life. As for me, I have just enough confidence about the multiverse to bet the lives of both Andrei Linde and Martin Rees's dog." From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 11:34:45 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:34:45 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Weinberg on multiverse In-Reply-To: <000a01c5e1d9$1feb8a10$b6c71b97@administxl09yj> References: <000a01c5e1d9$1feb8a10$b6c71b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: On 11/5/05, scerir wrote: > > Steven Weinberg about the 'Multiverse' > in a long paper here: > http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0511037 > "It must be acknowledged that there is a big di > erence in the degree of confidence we can have > in neo-Darwinism and in the multiverse. It is > settled, as well as anything in science is ever settled, > that the adaptations of living things on earth > have come into being through natural selection > acting on random undirected inheritable variations. > About the multiverse, it is appropriate to keep > an open mind, and opinions among scientists differ > widely. In the Austin airport on the way to this meeting > I noticed for sale the October issue of a magazine called > 'Astronomy', having on the cover the headline "Why You Live > in Multiple Universes." Inside I found a report of > a discussion at a conference at Stanford, at which Martin > Rees said that he was sufficiently confident about > the multiverse to bet his dog's life on it, > while Andrei Linde said he would bet his own life. > As for me, I have just enough confidence about the multiverse > to bet the lives of both Andrei Linde and Martin Rees's dog." > Deutsch is probably the most fervent supporter of the MWI when it comes to multiverses. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 11:38:13 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:38:13 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104234007.01d28b58@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104234007.01d28b58@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/05, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Spot the difference: > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9912186/ > > http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-11/04/content_3730276.htm > > So, are you pointing up any inaccuracies or is it that the Chinese have chosen to report a diferent aspect of the emails sent? Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 5 12:03:01 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:03:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Question for Technorati experts Message-ID: Hi extropes, This is a try-in-the-dark question for those of you who are Technorati experts. I would like to know how to put a different label on search results with a keyword search. The blogsphere has some cool stuff, but it is mixed with uninteresting stuff that I want to filter the viewer from in my results. My specific need is to grab the URLS of the wavelets blogs and filter out porn/sex/gay/teen/resume for my wavelet page (*). I.e.
Technorati search
Does anyone know? So far the only answer I can think is to write a cgi script to process the form but I was hoping this kind of request would be so common that an easy solution is already available. I asked the technorati people in their feedback portion of the web site, but I think my question was probably too dumb for them, because they didn't answer. Thanks in advance... Amara (*) http://www.amara.com/current/wavelet.html -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "My life has a superb cast but I can't figure out the plot." --Ashleigh Brilliant From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Nov 5 15:28:02 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 07:28:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <200511021454.jA2Es1e11016@tick.javien.com> References: <200511021454.jA2Es1e11016@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051105152802.GA5319@ofb.net> On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 06:53:54AM -0800, spike wrote: > In response to a comment by Avantguardian that > went something like: I live in Taxifornia where Taxifornia, land of Proposition 13's property tax cap, and subsequent decay of public schools? > US 'socialism' is what we Europeans call rabid right wing government. > Dirk > pension problem. We yanks have a social security > fund that is supposed to go bust in 2038, but I "Supposed" depending on who you listen to. Krugman's analysis is much more sanguine that Bush's. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Nov 5 15:35:32 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 07:35:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051101125128.02f04ed8@gmu.edu> References: <20051101061513.69921.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> <43679ACA.1040406@posthuman.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20051101125128.02f04ed8@gmu.edu> Message-ID: <20051105153532.GB5319@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 12:53:13PM -0500, Robin Hanson wrote: > This is an excellent, and I think deep question. Well worth > pondering at length. Why indeed. Not only are there no courses to > teach you how to invest in or run a business, they also teach little > about how to be a savvy consumer. Not the same thing, but my public high school had an investment club run by the economics and psychology teacher. They may have even used real money; I don't remember any details. -xx- Damien X-) From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 16:44:21 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:44:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] prop 13 and public schools In-Reply-To: <20051105152802.GA5319@ofb.net> Message-ID: <200511051644.jA5GiJe07277@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Sullivan > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents ... > > Taxifornia, land of Proposition 13's property tax cap, and subsequent > decay of public schools? Ja, but prop 13 isn't what is causing the decay of the public schools. Taxifornia also has a high sales tax and a high income tax. If there are no controls over property taxes, one does not really own one's property. If there are no controls, one is merely renting one's own property from the state, which can arbitrarily raise the rates until the property owners must sell. With sales tax there are inherent controls: if they raise them too much, bricks and mortar businesses fail. With income taxes, there are inherent controls: if they raise them too much, people go bankrupt. But property taxes in most yank states lack such controls: if they raise them too much, people must sell their property. These taxes must be controlled or capped in some manner, especially in a state like taxifornia where the property values are absurd. Prop13 keeps governments under control. Taxifornia public schools are not really failing either. The students are learning. The facilities are in great shape. Extravagance is seen seen everywhere on the school grounds. Google on California Public Schools, that will give you a list, then google on a few randomly chosen public school websites. Do those facilities look decayed? I do not doubt that there exists propaganda claiming taxifornia public schools are decaying, but get on the web and check it out. We try to arrange the voting places to be at the public schools so that the voters are forced to come out and see it first-hand. In most cases, the schools are in better shape than the surrounding neighborhoods. I might add that the schools that are failing are not doing so because of lack of funds. They have plenty of money. The failing public schools are doing so because the criterion upon which is determined their success is the cumulative test scores of the students. Half of these tests cover English skills. There is a constant drain of students from publics schools whose native language is English, a constant drain of students in whose home is spoken only English. These are going to private schools in ever greater numbers. So more and more of the public school's limited time is taken up trying to teach basic English skills, which displaces ever more of the other half of the test, which is math. More money will not solve this problem. It pains me to write that comment, because of course every capitalist knows that more money can solve any problem. But I do not see how more money could solve this one. It might make it worse: the schools might hire more teachers that speak other-than-English, which would encourage the students to neglect learning the most valuable skill the taxifornia public schools are offering. Prop13 is our friend. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 17:17:53 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:17:53 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france In-Reply-To: <200511051644.jA5GiJe07277@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200511051717.jA5HHje09682@tick.javien.com> The mainstream news media are having a field day over here with the French riots: they love to cover anything that bleeds or burns. Are there any French or Europeans that have enlightening commentary from an extropian point of view? Our yankee news media have very little credibility. Specific question: they keep saying these are the worst riots since the 1968 student uprisings. What were they rioting about in 1968? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 17:21:50 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:21:50 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104234007.01d28b58@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200511051721.jA5HLhe09965@tick.javien.com> The Chinese version doesn't point out that the banter went on *before* the levees collapsed? Is that what you had in mind? According the FEMA guidelines, the fed doesn't step in until three days after a disaster. Until then, the state is responsible. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:41 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? > > Spot the difference: > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9912186/ > > http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-11/04/content_3730276.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From brian at posthuman.com Sat Nov 5 17:37:08 2005 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 11:37:08 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? In-Reply-To: <200511051721.jA5HLhe09965@tick.javien.com> References: <200511051721.jA5HLhe09965@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <436CEDC4.4070507@posthuman.com> Study the picture y'all... -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 5 17:48:21 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:48:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hayabusa aborts lander on asteroid Itokawa Message-ID: http://planetary.org/news/2005/1104_Hayabusa_Japans_Asteroid_Mission.html The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency's Hayabusa -- the world's first mission to attempt to land on an asteroid, collect samples, and return them to Earth - did not carry out the planned release of its lander Friday or the final part of its rehearsal for two brief landings scheduled for later this month. Around noon Japan Standard Time (JST) [7 p.m., November 3 Pacific Standard Time (PST)], mission controllers, who had detected "an anomalous signal" at the critical Go/NoGo timepoint, aborted both the release of the target marker and Minerva, the lander. There was no immediate word on when this part of the mission would be rescheduled. The $170-million-dollar asteroid chaser was to have descended to just about 30 meters (100 feet) above the asteroid to test a laser range finder and other instruments for the two landings scheduled for later this month and then move in closer to about 15 meters (50 feet) to release a target marker and Minerva - short for MIcro/Nano Experimental Robot Vehicle for Asteroid. Hayabusa, which means "falcon" in Japanese, began its descent around 4 a.m., JST on November 4 [11 a.m., November 3 PST] and by 8:45 a.m., it was within 1,700 meters (about 1 mile) of the surface. It was proceeding "smoothly" according to the live feed from JAXA's website, and two hours later, at 10:50 a.m. JST, it was just 1 kilometer (a little more than half a mile) from Itokawa. But that is apparently as close as it got before the anomalous signal brought the activities to a halt. Developed at the Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (ISAS), a space science research division arm of JAXA, Hayabusa launched from Japan's Kagoshima Space Center on May 9, 2003. It overcame a number of obstacles during its 1 billion kilometer (621 million mile) journey, including several life-threatening solar flares. That slowed its arrival a bit, but the spacecraft finally arrived at Itokawa in September of this year. -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It is intriguing to learn that the simplicity of the world depends upon the temperature of the environment." ---John D. Barrow From scerir at libero.it Sat Nov 5 18:33:17 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:33:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france References: <200511051717.jA5HHje09682@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> From: "spike" > Specific question: they keep saying these > are the worst riots since the 1968 student > uprisings. What were they rioting about > in 1968? In 1968 French students (and workers) were rioting against the old politics (Gaullism), the 'establishment', the old culture, and all that. But the same happened in Italy, in Germany, in California (remember Marcuse? and Angela Davis?), etc. Now *immigrants* (not just the old 'Pieds-Noirs', but also arabs and people coming from east) are rioting, around Paris, because they cannot get a job, because of money. The economy in France (but the same thing in Germany, and in Italy, etc.) is in bad condition. Our growth is < 1%. Your (US) growth is well > 3%. s. From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 18:41:04 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:41:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104234007.01d28b58@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200511051841.jA5If5e17565@tick.javien.com> >Damien > Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? > > Spot the difference: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9912186/ http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-11/04/content_3730276.htm Waaaaaaahahahahahahahaaaaaaa. {8^D That is toooo funny. Thanks Damien, sharp eye! {8-] Lousy sneaky commies, you can never trust em. Its like this whole water fluoridation plot. You know that they get the public to buy into adding stannous fluoride, then later when no one is watching, they bring in a chemically similar but far more toxic ionic salt known as socius fluoride. This is already being done on both US coasts. Then when everyone is under the pernicious influence of the socius fluoride, a still more destructive substance is substituted, the super-toxic communus flouride. Marx, Engels, Mao, Lenin, were all known to have snorted communus flouride on a regular basis. The evidence is clear: those areas in the U.S. that have resisted communus fluoridation, known as the red states, seem to have greater problems with tooth decay. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 18:49:56 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:49:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france In-Reply-To: <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <200511051849.jA5Inme18103@tick.javien.com> scerir: > in California (remember Marcuse? and Angela Davis?), etc. Well, actually no, but I am not the most historically savvy guy you ever met. Thanks scerir, this gives me a starting point for googling myself up to speed. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir > Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:33 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] riots in france > > From: "spike" > > > Specific question: they keep saying these > > are the worst riots since the 1968 student > > uprisings. What were they rioting about > > in 1968? > > In 1968 French students (and workers) were rioting > against the old politics (Gaullism), the 'establishment', > the old culture, and all that. But the same happened > in Italy, in Germany, in California (remember Marcuse? and > Angela Davis?), etc. > > Now *immigrants* (not just the old 'Pieds-Noirs', but also > arabs and people coming from east) are rioting, around Paris, > because they cannot get a job, because of money. The economy > in France (but the same thing in Germany, and in Italy, etc.) > is in bad condition. Our growth is < 1%. Your (US) growth is > well > 3%. > > s. From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 5 18:59:01 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:59:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france Message-ID: spike: >Are there any French or Europeans that >have enlightening commentary from an >extropian point of view? Our yankee >news media have very little credibility. Probably not extropian POV, but at least the International Herald Tribune will give a more realistic perspective than the news you are getting there: http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/04/news/paris.php http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/04/business/france.php Amara From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 5 19:07:45 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:07:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia In-Reply-To: <200511051849.jA5Inme18103@tick.javien.com> References: <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> <200511051849.jA5Inme18103@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051105130112.039fc270@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:49 AM 11/5/2005 -0800, spike wrote: >scerir: > > > in California (remember Marcuse? and Angela Davis?), etc. > >Well, actually no, but I am not the most historically >savvy guy you ever met. This is awfully depressing, because without (actual or book-acquired) memory of the moderately recent past, there's no way one can sensibly attempt to estimate likely consequences of actions and strategies in the present and future. Spike, do you know that Greece, the "birthplace of democracy", was under fascist military rule when you were a child in the '60s and early '70s? Googling almost at random, see e.g.: ============ Woodhouse, C.M. The Rise and Fall of the Greek Colonels. New York: Franklin Watts, 1985. 192 pages. C.M. Woodhouse, a former British diplomat, Conservative MP, and Oxford fellow, has written several books on modern Greek history. In April 1967, a group of colonels seized power and held on to it until 1974. The Greek junta was known around the world for its suspension of civil liberties, torture of political prisoners, and brutal repression of a student revolt in November 1973. The regime was brought down primarily because the various branches of the military could only manage to conspire against each other when it came time to defend their position in Cyprus against Turkish forces. Many people believe that the level of CIA intrigue behind the junta was an important factor. This is true with Oriana Fallaci in "A Man" (1980), an overwhelmingly-dramatic biography of junta prisoner Alexander Panagoulis. Woodhouse concedes that the CIA probably had advance knowledge of the coup, but feels that popular opinion in Greece is also trying to scapegoat the CIA for a situation of their own making. With his Establishment credentials, Woodhouse cannot be expected to pursue the question. Regardless of what forces led to the coup, vice-president Spiro Agnew was openly pro-junta during his term, and Nixon, Kissinger, and Dean Rusk weren't much better. The junta, after all, was open to U.S. corporations, Greece was a NATO ally in a strategic region, and the Navy needed to homeport the Sixth Fleet there. ISBN 0-531-09798-6 ============== Not to know about Angela Davis, BTW, seems to me as strange as not knowing about Martin Luther King, whatever one thinks of her politics. Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 20:00:58 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:00:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051105130112.039fc270@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 11:08 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia > > At 10:49 AM 11/5/2005 -0800, spike wrote: > > >scerir: > > > > > in California (remember Marcuse? and Angela Davis?), etc. > > > >Well, actually no, but I am not the most historically > >savvy guy you ever met. > > This is awfully depressing, because without (actual or book-acquired) > memory of the moderately recent past, there's no way one can sensibly > attempt to estimate likely consequences of actions and strategies in the > present and future... Ja Im working on that. Thank evolution for the internet. Your title of gen X *amnesia* suggests people who once knew but forgot. I don't recall ever having learned of these matters. In the 1960s and early 70s, rockets and space were everything. All politic debate was just squabbling over stuff that didn't really matter much, and would go away eventually. It was a cool dream. > > Spike, do you know that Greece, the "birthplace of democracy", was under > fascist military rule when you were a child in the '60s and early '70s? > Googling almost at random, see e.g.: I did not know of this, thanks! ... > > Not to know about Angela Davis, BTW, seems to me as strange as not knowing > about Martin Luther King, whatever one thinks of her politics. > > Damien Broderick Ja we had MLK force-fed to us in the public schools, but not Angela Davis. I went to wikipedia, learned that she was the big-haired person who wanted to do away with prisons. Hmmmmm, ok Angela, that sounds like a great plan, lets go right out and do that, even better idea than the huge afro. Not. (What was up with all that hair?) spike From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 5 20:28:09 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:28:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Blacklight pops up again In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104201301.01ceb280@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104201301.01ceb280@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051105202809.GG2249@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 08:14:19PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > Still sounds like crap: He's a notorious crank, and has been floating this for many years http://www.hydrino.org/ http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/h/hy/hydrino_theory.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrino_theory I'm surprised physweb actually made the mistake of giving air to that notorious pseudoscientist. > http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1627424,00.html > > < Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at Asheville > (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was allowed unfettered > access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We went in with a healthy > amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if this were true, > in my position as head of a research institution, I really wouldn't want to > make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be remembered as the person who > derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment into something that wasn't > real." > > But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt about > Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists are looking at > Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr Booker > and I have both put our professional reputations on the line as far as that > goes." > -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 5 20:28:47 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:28:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia In-Reply-To: <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051105130112.039fc270@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051105142355.039ecc38@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:00 PM 11/5/2005 -0800, spike wrote: >Your title of gen X *amnesia* suggests people >who once knew but forgot. I don't recall ever having >learned of these matters. Yep. *Cultural* amnesia is what I had in mind. The failure to transmit this sort of history to the kids. I would never use so horrid a term as, like, *ignorance*... :) And Spike is certainly one of those who does make an effort to backfill the gaps left by a, like, historically nescient cultural apparatus . >(What was up with all that hair?) I could never pose that question, it would look too much like bitter & twisted envy. Damien Balderick From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 20:45:05 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:45:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia In-Reply-To: <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051105204505.43676.qmail@web60017.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > (What was up with all that hair?) It was emblematic of the 60's thing. Long hair on young males, and huge, unstraightened hair -- called "an Afro" on melanin-gifted Americans of both genders -- was the chosen hair style of the sex,drugs, and rock n' roll counterculture. In that bygone age I, having been endowed with naturally curly hair, sported giant hair as well. I called it a "Hebro". But now, alas, it's bye-bye, gone gone. Best, Jeff Davis "We need to remind people that `aging' is just the traditional word contingently associated with physical decay due to the breakdown of cellular maintenance mechanisms, accumulated unrepaired damage, etc." Damien Broderick __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 5 20:46:06 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:46:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia In-Reply-To: <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051105130112.039fc270@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051105143753.01c5e8a0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:00 PM 11/5/2005 -0800, spike wrote: >Angela Davis. I went to wikipedia, learned >that she was the big-haired person who wanted to do >away with prisons. Hmmmmm, ok Angela, that sounds >like a great plan, lets go right out and do that... > >Not. A quote from her at the wiki: "Imprisonment has become the response of first resort to far too many of our social problems." Oddly, this sounds rather like your own complaint the other day, Spike. Can't find it now, but weren't you pointing out that we need the skills and labor power of the vast numbers imprisoned for victimless "crimes"? That would be a start. The value of jails in confining the bad bastards is presumably in isolating them from the rest of us for a time; the obvious fact that this hardens some and instructs all of them in better methods and motives for further crime suggests that doing away with today's prisons and finding better methods isn't really all that silly. Damien Broderick From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 5 20:47:13 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:47:13 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <200511050227.jA52RYe01417@tick.javien.com> References: <200511050227.jA52RYe01417@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051105204713.GJ2249@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 06:27:30PM -0800, spike wrote: > In most of human history on most of this planet, they > probably would just shoot or hang the criminals. With > the modern legal system, there has never been a better > time than now or a better place than the west to be > a criminal. While I agree in principle, I would have used a past tense here. (At least, for some specific values of ethnicity or belief of criminals). I don't think there was ever a time to work with the bastards. Now if you want to start hanging them (impeachment is for wusses), now's the time. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 5 21:36:40 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:36:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google maps + Social software mashup In-Reply-To: <5366105b0511042040l65539632x43a5d68c541c7745@mail.gmail.com> References: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> <5366105b0511042040l65539632x43a5d68c541c7745@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051105213639.GR2249@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 10:40:19PM -0600, Jay Dugger wrote: > http://www.redcross.org > Please donate if you can. I disagree with that particular donation target. Your money is better spent with the Salvation Army (despite the Jesus freak and the misogynia angle). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Nov 5 21:42:08 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:42:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia References: <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <0bb101c5e251$ca25a420$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "spike" > (What was up with all that hair?) Tsk, tsk, tsk ... not only hair, but Hair gained iconic status in the 1960s: http://www.geocities.com/hairpages/ My Gen-X'r children saw a revival of Hair in the mid 1980s, and a year or two ago it played in Seattle (where I was amused to see a troop of tassel-loafered lawyers of-a-certain age getting some of the best tickets ... for their night of a little nostalgia). Olga From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 5 21:55:29 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:55:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic Freedom and the Fate of Dissidents In-Reply-To: <200511021454.jA2Es1e11016@tick.javien.com> References: <200511021454.jA2Es1e11016@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051105215529.GV2249@leitl.org> On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 06:53:54AM -0800, spike wrote: > Dirk, which country are you from? I am interested > in European politics to see how you guys solve the > pension problem. We yanks have a social security > fund that is supposed to go bust in 2038, but I > heard Germany and France are facing a similar > sitch with more urgency. Here's an interesting historic view on retirement and its funding in the US: http://www.eh.net/encyclopedia/article/short.retirement.history.us I understand that due to a need for investment in growth years in the early 20th century the self-financed saving part has gone away (at least, in more socialist places) for a social security type of taxation which is invested in current growth, with future promise of revenue (of course, the entire house of cards collapses with the population pyramid inversion and very slow or negative local growth due to globalisation competition). > I don't know that either right or left has a > good solution to this. If so I haven't heard it. I don't think there is an economic solution. If the automation and the redistribution part doesn't land instanter we're going to face either cars burning in the streets, or old folks poverty, or both. I'm only half joking (I've seen old folks begging in the streets with the collapse of the UdSSR, and it wasn't pretty). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 5 22:06:25 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 23:06:25 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> References: <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200510310459.j9V4xee31811@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051105220625.GW2249@leitl.org> On Sun, Oct 30, 2005 at 08:59:11PM -0800, spike wrote: > Jack, why is full employment defined as success? Is not > the goal to have machines do our work, freeing us to do > whatever we please? That is what I would call economic That assumes that whoever owns the machines pays for your leisure. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work without imposing lots of taxation, and I don't recall you liking taxes. > success, even if everyone does not achieve it. Current redistribution of wealth across the global economy has resulted in effective reduction of wealth in old industrialized countries *for the working class* since the 1980s. Effectively, all these folks have to work more for less (of course, the growth in the rest of the world more than compensates for that). At the same time wealth concentration continues to occur, with total overall growth, but losses in the bottom parts of the histogram. Question is, what's going to happen when this equilibrates, and the developing and developed meet somewhere in the middle? And which technology will materialize (or fail to) to overthrow this nice Malthusian projection? (I haven't got the foggiest. I hope someone here can comment). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Nov 5 22:09:05 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:09:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <200511050227.jA52RYe01417@tick.javien.com> References: <200511050227.jA52RYe01417@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: Since they are criminalizing huge numbers of people for what should never have been defined as a crime I find you comment callous and irrelevant to the original point. - samantha On Nov 4, 2005, at 6:27 PM, spike wrote: >> On 11/3/05 9:04 PM, "Matus" wrote: >> >>> >>> ... does the US imprison a higher percentage of it's population than >>> > Vietnam? Burma? Cuba? Saudi Arabia? ... > ... > > In most of human history on most of this planet, they > probably would just shoot or hang the criminals. With > the modern legal system, there has never been a better > time than now or a better place than the west to be > a criminal. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 5 22:23:41 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 23:23:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: <200511030407.jA347Ae22700@tick.javien.com> References: <43698338.4040701@goldenfuture.net> <200511030407.jA347Ae22700@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051105222341.GZ2249@leitl.org> On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 08:07:09PM -0800, spike wrote: > Market forces will eventually smash thru any law. There > is a steady market for recreational drugs. All attempts Any idiot can make recreational drugs in their kitchen, or import those from industrial-scale plants in the world where laws are weakly enforced. Drugs are easily consumed, too. Now a medical procedure takes trained specialists, a fixed location, and expensive hardware. This isn't something you can package into a gel cap. You can shut that place down in no time at all. > to stop it thru legal means have failed. If human enhancement > can be done profitably, there is no need to bother with > the politics; it will happen anyway. I wish it was that way. But the operating systems of our societies have definite impact on many services, medicine included. Whether it's abortion clinics, or (hypothetical) stem cell rejuvenation treatments, if they're banned locally, that's a threshold. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Nov 5 22:26:47 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:26:47 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gen X amnesia In-Reply-To: <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> References: <200511052000.jA5K0pe22416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2005, at 12:00 PM, spike wrote: > Your title of gen X *amnesia* suggests people > who once knew but forgot. I don't recall ever having > learned of these matters. In the 1960s and early 70s, > rockets and space were everything. All politic debate > was just squabbling over stuff that didn't really > matter much, and would go away eventually. It was > a cool dream. > What is more worrisome is that a LOT of us are still doing it. "Come MNT (or Singularity or strong AI) the political stuff won't matter." Sound familiar? - samantha From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 5 22:38:09 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:38:09 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Blacklight pops up again In-Reply-To: <20051105202809.GG2249@leitl.org> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051104201301.01ceb280@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20051105202809.GG2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051105163325.039a4480@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:28 PM 11/5/2005 +0100, 'gene wrote: >On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 08:14:19PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Still sounds like crap: > >He's a notorious crank, and has been floating this for many years Yes. But my implicit point was that the Guardian newspaper (and the Institute of Physics' PhysicsWeb: http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/9/8/4 **) haven't been running sober reappraisals lately of, say, George Adamski's flying saucers or the Hollow Earth theory etc. Just a slow news week? Damien Broderick ** < Now another theorist has joined the debate with a different point of view. Jan Naudts of the University of Antwerp in Belgium argues that the Klein-Gordon equation of relativistic quantum mechanics does indeed permit the existence of a low-lying hydrino state, although he stops short of claiming that hydrino states really exist (physics/0507193). "In physics the experiment decides," says Naudts. "Either the hydrino exists, in which case we have to accept a small correction to the textbooks on quantum mechanics, or it does not exist, in which case we have to find better arguments to explain why it does not exist." Naudts says that results of Mills and co-workers have recently been confirmed by a group at the Technical University of Eindhoven. "Nothing is decided yet, but I think it is time to fill the holes in our theoretical understanding of the hydrogen atom." > From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 22:55:07 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:55:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511052254.jA5Msxe01319@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 2:09 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Futures Politics > > Since they are criminalizing huge numbers of people for what should > never have been defined as a crime I find you comment callous and > irrelevant to the original point. > > - samantha When I refer to criminals, I do not include those who only do drugs. Using up prison cells for those is a strange modern aberration. And I'm not even a hard-core libertarian. spike From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 01:25:23 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 01:25:23 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france In-Reply-To: <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> References: <200511051717.jA5HHje09682@tick.javien.com> <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: On 11/5/05, scerir wrote: > > From: "spike" > > > Specific question: they keep saying these > > are the worst riots since the 1968 student > > uprisings. What were they rioting about > > in 1968? > > In 1968 French students (and workers) were rioting > against the old politics (Gaullism), the 'establishment', > the old culture, and all that. But the same happened > in Italy, in Germany, in California (remember Marcuse? and > Angela Davis?), etc. > > Now *immigrants* (not just the old 'Pieds-Noirs', but also > arabs and people coming from east) are rioting, around Paris, > because they cannot get a job, because of money. The economy > in France (but the same thing in Germany, and in Italy, etc.) > is in bad condition. Our growth is < 1%. Your (US) growth is > well > 3%. More succinctly, Moslems don't integrate and still want the fruits of integration. It's trouble that is only going to get worse. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Sun Nov 6 01:52:20 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:52:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france In-Reply-To: References: <200511051717.jA5HHje09682@tick.javien.com> <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <436D61D4.8090707@goldenfuture.net> Someone check the thermometer in Hell. Dirk and I agree. I would add, it will get worse by spreading to Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc. Joseph Dirk Bruere wrote: > > More succinctly, Moslems don't integrate and still want the fruits of > integration. > It's trouble that is only going to get worse. > > Dirk > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Nov 6 03:02:24 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:02:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Arthur C. Clarke and Islam [was riots in france] Message-ID: <000001c5e280$aa8f3390$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Dirk Bruere Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] riots in france > More succinctly, Moslems don't integrate and still want the fruits of integration. > It's trouble that is only going to get worse. Recently I ran into some discussions about sci-fi, Arthur C. Clarke, and his comments on Islam. "Clarke: Though I sometimes call myself a crypto-Buddhist, Buddhism is not a religion. Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.": http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=clarke_19_2 and this: http://www.cs.rit.edu/~maa2454/SCIFI/sci_lit.html Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Sun Nov 6 03:32:44 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 22:32:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Arthur C. Clarke and Islam [was riots in france] In-Reply-To: <000001c5e280$aa8f3390$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <000001c5e280$aa8f3390$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <436D795C.9070804@goldenfuture.net> One wonders when they _weren't_ "behaving like Christians". Conquering other lands, forcibly converting non-believers, killing those who don't comply, forcing non-believers into degrading behaviors, etc. etc. Joseph Olga Bourlin wrote: > *From:* Dirk Bruere > *Sent:* Saturday, November 05, 2005 5:25 PM > *Subject:* Re: [extropy-chat] riots in france > > More succinctly, Moslems don't integrate and still want the fruits > of integration. > > It's trouble that is only going to get worse. > Recently I ran into some discussions about sci-fi, Arthur C. Clarke, > and his comments on Islam. > > *"Clarke:* Though I sometimes call myself a crypto-Buddhist, Buddhism > is not a religion. Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only > one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted > by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm > afraid.": > > http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=clarke_19_2 > > > and this: > > http://www.cs.rit.edu/~maa2454/SCIFI/sci_lit.html > > > Olga > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From gregburch at gregburch.net Sun Nov 6 03:52:54 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:52:54 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Arthur C. Clarke and Islam [was riots in france] In-Reply-To: <000001c5e280$aa8f3390$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: What a terrible dissapointment. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 9:02 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] Arthur C. Clarke and Islam [was riots in france] From: Dirk Bruere Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] riots in france > More succinctly, Moslems don't integrate and still want the fruits of integration. > It's trouble that is only going to get worse. Recently I ran into some discussions about sci-fi, Arthur C. Clarke, and his comments on Islam. "Clarke: Though I sometimes call myself a crypto-Buddhist, Buddhism is not a religion. Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.": http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=clarke_19_2 and this: http://www.cs.rit.edu/~maa2454/SCIFI/sci_lit.html Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 06:51:01 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil H.) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:51:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Booke Review: A post-human Brave New World? Message-ID: Google Alerts informed me of a book review of Kurzweil's "The Singularity is Near," by an engineering professor at the University of Toronto. It mostly goes about drawing parallels between the future Kurzweil predicts and Huxley's "Brave New World." Personally, I think the root of the dystopia in Huxley's novel wasn't the access to advanced technologies, but the all-controlling World State. Minus the totalitarian government, I think Huxley's world would be quite a desirable one to live in. Some snippets from the review: > Kurzweil is a technological fundamentalist, someone who is enthralled with > technology, but who frequently underemphasizes the human aspects. As an > example, he writes: "Two machines . . . can join together to become one and > then separate again. Multiple machines can do both at the same time: become > one and separate simultaneously. Humans call this falling in love, but our > biological ability to do this is fleeting and unreliable." > ... > Experiences such as those of S are not always known or appreciated by > technological fundamentalists who focus on "overriding, impersonal" forces > and are keen on pushing the boundaries of technology. Enhancing memory for > the disabled, such as Alzheimer's patients, may be a worthwhile and > achievable goal, but eliminating the limits of normal human memory would be > disastrous. > ... > > What is at stake here is nothing less than our vision of humanity. > Kurzweil believes we have "physical frailties" and "suffering brains" that > should be fixed. Others believe in the power of humanity and marvel at Tiger > Woods's golf swing, commuters navigating rush-hour traffic in Paris and > doctors eradicating smallpox from the planet. This latter view also believes > in the power of technology not to fix frail people, but to enhance > remarkable human capabilities. > > ... > > I believe that the answers Kurzweil provides are fundamentally misguided > and perhaps even dangerous. But his book is still valuable because it forces > us to think about how we would like to see technology used in society. What > kind of brave new world do we want for ourselves, our children and our > grandchildren? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 09:21:27 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 09:21:27 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Booke Review: A post-human Brave New World? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/6/05, Neil H. wrote: > Personally, I think the root of the dystopia in Huxley's novel wasn't the > access to advanced technologies, but the all-controlling World State. Minus > the totalitarian government, I think Huxley's world would be quite a > desirable one to live in. > > Some snippets from the review: > > > > What is at stake here is nothing less than our vision of humanity. > Kurzweil believes we have "physical frailties" and "suffering brains" that > should be fixed. Others believe in the power of humanity and marvel at Tiger > Woods's golf swing, commuters navigating rush-hour traffic in Paris and > doctors eradicating smallpox from the planet. This latter view also believes > in the power of technology not to fix frail people, but to enhance > remarkable human capabilities. > > Yes, but - a big BUT... Tiger Woods has had laser eye surgery to improve his eyesight above 20/20 and GPS range-finding devices are now legal in golf. The road traffic death and mutilation rates are an ongoing disaster. Antibiotic resistant mutations are appearing rapidly around the world, and doctors make many mistakes also. Humanity could do with a lot of enhancement. BillK From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Nov 6 17:45:02 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 09:45:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france In-Reply-To: <436D61D4.8090707@goldenfuture.net> References: <200511051717.jA5HHje09682@tick.javien.com> <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> <436D61D4.8090707@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: Funny, I know quite a few well-integrated Muslims. Looking back in history, riots, especially of the poor, are not generally religion- centric. These particular riots are not claimed, or led by any Islamic group. So is this a case of guilt by association and seeing evidence for what one already believes? - samantha On Nov 5, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote: > Someone check the thermometer in Hell. > > Dirk and I agree. > > I would add, it will get worse by spreading to Switzerland, > Germany, Austria, etc. > > Joseph > > Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >> >> More succinctly, Moslems don't integrate and still want the fruits >> of integration. >> It's trouble that is only going to get worse. >> >> Dirk >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:11:01 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:11:01 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france In-Reply-To: References: <200511051717.jA5HHje09682@tick.javien.com> <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> <436D61D4.8090707@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: On 11/6/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Funny, I know quite a few well-integrated Muslims. Looking back in Obviously. If they weren't particularly integrated you wouldn't know them. Let me guess - those Moslems were well educated middle class professionals? history, riots, especially of the poor, are not generally religion- > centric. These particular riots are not claimed, or led by any > Islamic group. So is this a case of guilt by association and seeing > evidence for what one already believes? > > It is evidence of a religiously (self) defined self ghettoising and generally racially distinct underclass that may well be a permanent feature of the European landscape. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sun Nov 6 18:44:42 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:44:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] SwarmSketch Message-ID: http://www.swarmsketch.com/ (Clever !!) The web page says: =================================================================== Welcome to SwarmSketch: Collective sketching of the collective consciousness. SwarmSketch is an ongoing online canvas that explores the possibilities of distributed design by the masses. Each week it randomly chooses a popular search term which becomes the sketch subject for the week. In this way, the collective is sketching what the collective thought was important each week. (Due to increased traffic sketches are currently being updated after about 1000 lines) Each user can contribute a small amount of line per visit, then they are given the opportunity to vote on the opacity of lines submitted by other users. By voting, users moderate the input of other users, judging the quality of each line. The darkness of each line is the average of all its previous votes. Pumpkin Carving 2005-11-04 We are currently sketching "Pumpkin Carving", come in and contribute a line. Alternatively, you may like to browse the previous sketches and view animations of their progression. SwarmSketch was developed by Peter Edmunds as part of an honours project at the University of Canberra. If you have any comments or suggestions, =========================================================================== -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The play's the thing." --Shakespeare From eugen at leitl.org Sun Nov 6 21:01:10 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 22:01:10 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <001f01c5de15$8d080640$0801a8c0@EF02jack> References: <200510301900.j9UJ0Ke07580@tick.javien.com> <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001f01c5de15$8d080640$0801a8c0@EF02jack> Message-ID: <20051106210110.GW2249@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 08:20:46PM +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: > All of the above is true enough - but the point was not that Microsoft are > bad. The point is that a rival and total alien 'economics of plenty' model Microsoft isn't bad. Microsoft is just the black hole of innovation. Nothing interesting or novel ever came out of Redmond. Not even visions. This might change at some point in the future, but right now it's the bastion of third-rate mediocrity, and a grave of good (nowadays second-rate) talent. > of doing business can not only keep up with the world leader - but in some > respects surpass them. All without the corporate support net that MS It took Firefox to tell you that? Dirty hippie software well predates Microsoft. Major pieces of software like Emacs, the gcc suite and Linux/*BSD operating systems were there well before Mosaic. > employees take for granted... > How many might have predicted that during the early 1990's? I've personally used mostly open source software end 1980s, and I'm just a babe in these matters. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Nov 6 21:12:20 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 22:12:20 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Biochemistry text challenges students to find biological fallacy in cryonics In-Reply-To: <01ca01c5de18$3b6085d0$8998e03c@homepc> References: <01ca01c5de18$3b6085d0$8998e03c@homepc> Message-ID: <20051106211220.GX2249@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 11:40:10PM +1100, Brett Paatsch wrote: > "Death is essentially an irreversible loss of order. On dying, Death is essentially a decision on part of medical personnel based on best knowledge of the state of the art. http://ccforum.com/inpress/cc3894/abstract Critical Care 2005, in press doi:10.1186/cc3894 Published 31 October 2005 Abstract Contemporary intensive care unit (ICU) medicine has complicated the issue of what constitutes death in a life support environment. Not only is the distinction between sapient life and prolongation of vital signs blurred but the concept of death itself has been made more complex. The demand for organs to facilitate transplantation promotes a strong incentive to define clinical death in a manner that most effectively supplies that demand. We consider the problem of defining death in the ICU as a function of viable organ availability for transplantation. > cells loose their order on the molecular level by loosing their > ion gradients, enzymatically digesting their macromolecular > components, breaking down their membranes, etc. Thus, Rubbish. Some of these cryonics patients need to be shut down by meds orelse they would come back on life support. > although cells and the organisms they comprise appear to > change little on dying, the microscopic changes which occur > are profound and cannot be reversed by simply "curing" the > condition that caused death". What this boils down to is "we just redefined death, and since we don't know how to reverse these changes in the new definition nobody else can and will in future". That's a lot of implicit conditionals in that passage. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Nov 6 22:03:51 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:03:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google maps + Social software mashup In-Reply-To: <436A4280.2040307@singinst.org> Message-ID: <20051106220351.50574.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> I put mine up there, but it didn't take the correct location. I centered the map on my house, but the shoutout has me in the middle of 85. I know I live life in the fast lane at times, but not quite *that* way... ;) --- Michael Anissimov wrote: > Fellow transhumanists, > > I found an interesting social software tool that allows you to share > your picture and location with others. It's called Frappr... quite > interesting. I created this one for transhumanists: > > http://www.frappr.com/transhumanists > > Just another tendril connecting the virtual with the physical - feel > free to add yourself! (You might want to state your Skype name or > MSN/AIM name as well.) Consider creating one for your favorite > transhumanist spinoff sect. Be careful with your shoutout - once you > > say something, only an admin can delete it. Have fun! > > -- > Michael Anissimov http://singinst.org/ > Advocacy Director, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Mon Nov 7 00:56:11 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 16:56:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rare to Medium Message-ID: <001e01c5e336$0c21d490$6600a8c0@brainiac> British Library and Microsoft to digitize rare reads. The two will work together to digitise around 1,00,000 [???] out-of-copyright books and deliver search results for this content through the new MSN Book Search service: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1286400.cms From joel.pitt at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:03:25 2005 From: joel.pitt at gmail.com (Joel Peter William Pitt) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:03:25 +1300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rare to Medium In-Reply-To: <001e01c5e336$0c21d490$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <001e01c5e336$0c21d490$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: Pity that they couldn't just donate some of their research money to project gutenberg ( http://www.gutenberg.org/ ) which has been doing this kind of thing for ages. They are up to 16000 or so, so depending on whether 1,00,000 = 100,000 or not, they are not too far off. Joel On 11/7/05, Olga Bourlin wrote: > British Library and Microsoft to digitize rare reads. > > The two will work together to digitise around 1,00,000 [???] > out-of-copyright books and deliver search results for this content through > the new MSN Book Search service: > > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1286400.cms > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:30:33 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:30:33 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Dirk said: >Obviously. >If they weren't particularly integrated you wouldn't know them. >Let me guess - those Moslems were well educated middle class professionals? > It is evidence of a religiously (self) defined self ghettoising and generally racially distinct underclass that may well be a permanent feature of the European landscape. Dirk A 'self ghettoising and generally racially distinct underclass' - this appears to put the onus squarely onto these people I think. Isn't it just an exercise in shifting blame? Any 'middle-class professional' of any race or creed must find it a lot easier to integrate and achieve acceptance in a new country. Perhaps we should condemn the poor for their effrontery in not being middle-class and having a decent degree? Generalizations about Moslems are worthless. PEOPLE (of any race or creed) live in ghettos in any part of the world where they feel the need to support each other against a hostile environment. If the environment is not ostile - the ghettoes disappear. There are no Moslem ghettoes in Australia, or China for that matter - and NOT coincidentally there is a general acceptance and tolerance between Moslem/Christian/Buddhists in these places. If that peace should suddenly shatter because a few fundamentalists start start lobbing explosives, we might start to see a similar situation to the one developing in Europe and the US... Jack Parkinson From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:39:27 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 01:39:27 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/7/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > Dirk said: > >Obviously. > >If they weren't particularly integrated you wouldn't know them. > >Let me guess - those Moslems were well educated middle class > professionals? > > > It is evidence of a religiously (self) defined self ghettoising and > generally racially distinct underclass that may well be a permanent > feature > of the European landscape. > Dirk > > A 'self ghettoising and generally racially distinct underclass' - this > appears to put the onus squarely onto these people I think. > > Isn't it just an exercise in shifting blame? > > Any 'middle-class professional' of any race or creed must find it a lot > easier to integrate and achieve acceptance in a new country. Perhaps we > should condemn the poor for their effrontery in not being middle-class and > having a decent degree? > > Generalizations about Moslems are worthless. PEOPLE (of any race or creed) > live in ghettos in any part of the world where they feel the need to > support > each other against a hostile environment. If the environment is not > ostile - the ghettoes disappear. There are no Moslem ghettoes in > Australia, > or China for that matter - and NOT coincidentally there is a general > acceptance and tolerance between Moslem/Christian/Buddhists in these > places. > > If that peace should suddenly shatter because a few fundamentalists start > start lobbing explosives, we might start to see a similar situation to the > one developing in Europe and the US... > Jack Parkinson > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Mon Nov 7 01:48:11 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 20:48:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> Jack Parkinson wrote: > PEOPLE (of any race or creed) live in ghettos in any part of the > world where they feel the need to support each other against a > hostile environment. Then why do they move into a hostile environment in the first place? And then stay? "France treats us badly" they say. Well, then, move the hell out of France, rather than trying to burn it down. \Can't believe I'm defending France. Joseph From joel.pitt at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:57:51 2005 From: joel.pitt at gmail.com (Joel Peter William Pitt) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:57:51 +1300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: On 11/7/05, Joseph Bloch wrote: > Jack Parkinson wrote: > > > PEOPLE (of any race or creed) live in ghettos in any part of the > > world where they feel the need to support each other against a > > hostile environment. > > > Then why do they move into a hostile environment in the first place? And > then stay? > > "France treats us badly" they say. > > Well, then, move the hell out of France, rather than trying to burn it down. > > \Can't believe I'm defending France. They may move because their previous environment was hostile and were looking for a better life. On a more local level, people live in less friendly places because they can't afford to live in good neighbourhood. And they can't just decide to leave because they spent their savings in searching for a better life - and any money they have is needed to survive. Plane/train tickets are not free, just in case you thought otherwise. Joel From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:59:07 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 01:59:07 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/7/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > Dirk said: > >Obviously. > >If they weren't particularly integrated you wouldn't know them. > >Let me guess - those Moslems were well educated middle class > professionals? > > > It is evidence of a religiously (self) defined self ghettoising and > generally racially distinct underclass that may well be a permanent > feature > of the European landscape. > Dirk > > A 'self ghettoising and generally racially distinct underclass' - this > appears to put the onus squarely onto these people I think. > > Isn't it just an exercise in shifting blame? It's an observation. However, one of the fundamental features of real integration is intermarriage. For example, our Black population is intermarrying at an estimated 25-40% per generation. Why isn't this happening with Moslems? It wasn't Blacks who blew up the trains in London. Any 'middle-class professional' of any race or creed must find it a lot > easier to integrate and achieve acceptance in a new country. Perhaps we > should condemn the poor for their effrontery in not being middle-class and > having a decent degree? All the poor? Or only the poor who will not enter the mainstream of European life? It's not about poverty, but *culture*. Generalizations about Moslems are worthless. PEOPLE (of any race or creed) > live in ghettos in any part of the world where they feel the need to > support > each other against a hostile environment. If the environment is not > ostile - the ghettoes disappear. There are no Moslem ghettoes in > Australia, > or China for that matter - and NOT coincidentally there is a general > acceptance and tolerance between Moslem/Christian/Buddhists in these > places. And officially no moslem ghettoes in Britain - just places where disproportionate percentages of them live. If that peace should suddenly shatter because a few fundamentalists start > start lobbing explosives, we might start to see a similar situation to the > one developing in Europe and the US... > Jack Parkinson > AIUI China does have a problem with Moslem extremists. http://www.satribune.com/archives/apr11_17_04/P1_ziad.htm However, the Chinese response to such unrest as is occurring in France would be long spells in the gulag or a bullet in the back of the neck As for Australia, perhaps that has escaped the problems of Britain and France. The main difference (possibly) is that British Moslems are, in bulk, of mainly Pakistani origin and culture. Those of France N African. People tend to ghettoise with those who share language and culture. Maybe this has not happened to a large extent with Moslems in Australia because of their diverse cultural backgrounds and languages. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 7 02:08:35 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:08:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <200511070208.jA728We32636@tick.javien.com> > Dirk said: > >Obviously. ... > > > It is evidence of a religiously (self) defined self ghettoising and > generally racially distinct underclass that may well be a permanent > feature of the European landscape. > Dirk The burning-suburb dwellers are claiming that these riots are not about religion. They want the French government to stop sending imams, that this is about persistent poverty. Interesting if true. When the fly-in occurred on 9-11, a lot of us assumed it was about poverty in the middle east, destitute souls fighting back against the evil rich guys in New York. But then we learned that those particular jihaders were not particularly poor. Now when the marshmallow roast starts up in France, we assumed it was a jihad. Come to find out these rioters are not claiming to be particularly religious. It is quite the puzzle. But one can only feel pity for the French: sitting over there unarmed, with their own police force evidently helpless to stop this madness. spike From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 02:11:24 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:11:24 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <200511070208.jA728We32636@tick.javien.com> References: <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <200511070208.jA728We32636@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On 11/7/05, spike wrote: > > > > Dirk said: > > >Obviously. > ... > > > > > It is evidence of a religiously (self) defined self ghettoising and > > generally racially distinct underclass that may well be a permanent > > feature of the European landscape. > > Dirk > > > The burning-suburb dwellers are claiming that these > riots are not about religion. They want the French > government to stop sending imams, that this is about > persistent poverty. And why is it persistent? Where are the comparable riots by the indigenous poor? Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 7 02:35:12 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:35:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Rare to Medium In-Reply-To: <001e01c5e336$0c21d490$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20051107023512.87389.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > British Library and Microsoft to digitize rare > reads. > > The two will work together to digitise around > 1,00,000 [???] Don't fret, Olga. They just ran out of zeros printing Bill Gates' last paycheck. Happens all the time at Microsoft. ;) > out-of-copyright books and deliver search results > for this content through > the new MSN Book Search service: Hopefully this won't be another attempt by Microsoft to profit off of intellectual property in the public domain. The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 7 02:56:24 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 20:56:24 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051106205417.01d14660@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:30 AM 11/7/2005 +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: >If the environment is not ostile - the ghettoes disappear. There are no >Moslem ghettoes in Australia, or China for that matter - and NOT >coincidentally there is a general acceptance and tolerance between >Moslem/Christian/Buddhists in these places. well... from the Australian newspaper recently: ========= A call to hate and to prayer Support for holy war is being urged by Muslim preachers spreading their message in Australia, reports Richard Kerbaj, who visited mosques and heard voices shrieking with angst and passion 04nov05 A VOICE explodes through the speakers at Lakemba's nondescript Haldon Street prayer hall in Sydney's southwest during a Friday qutbah (sermon). About 400 men - Saudis, Indonesians, Somalis and Lebanese among them - are huddled shoulder to shoulder, seated or kneeling on the floor of the hall, above a gym. A few stare blankly ahead, others have their eyes shut and faces cupped with their palms, almost in a trance-like, meditative state. It's October 21, the middle of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, and Sheik Abdul Salam Mohammed Zoud, who has been living in Australia since the mid-1990s, stands on a platform at the front of the room reading his sermon in Arabic. "Ramadan is not a month for indolence," he screams through a lapel microphone, drawing on Koranic parables about the importance of annihilating al-adou (the enemy) and stressing the Koranic obligation of jihad (spiritual struggle or holy war) during the month of fasting. His voice can be heard clearly in the car park outside. "Ramadan is a month for jihad upon oneself and jihad upon the enemy," he says, a time when followers must become more disciplined in adhering to the message of the Koran, and more willing and prepared to topple the enemy of Islam: the West. Listeners nod approvingly as Zoud praises mujaheddin - guerilla warriors engaged in holy war - who are waging bloody battles against Western troops across the world, and implores Allah to grant them victory in their fight against the enemies of Islam. "Allah yinsur el-mujaheddin fe-Iraq (God grant victory to the mujaheddin in Iraq)," he screams, his voice crackling as he defies his own vocal range. He then repeats the message three times, each time screaming it louder and with more intensely. Twice at the end of the 35-minute oration in front of the men, who are mostly in their 30s and 40s, the sheik exclaims in a voice filled with angst and passion, blame and hate: "Inshallah (God willing) dark days will descend upon America soon." Two Fridays earlier, at a prayer centre at Michael Street in Brunswick, Melbourne's Muslim heartland, the man regarded as Australia's most radical imam, Sheik Mohammed Omran, stands before his mixed band of followers. Earlier, the men had left their shoes in the corridor and walked into the room. On entering the mussalah, they're greeted by whoever they make eye contact with. "Assalam alaikum" (peace be with you) is acknowledged by the person being greeted with "Wa-alaikum assalam" (peace be with you too). An A4-sized piece of paper on the wall reminds attendees to switch off their mobile phones. Some kneel and pray, others grab a copy of the Koran off the bookshelf at the back of the room, and read it quietly. Off-duty taxi drivers, suited businessmen on their lunch breaks and youngsters wearing baseball caps and tracksuits sit among the traditionally clad listeners wearing dishdashas (gowns) and sporting beards. Several Western converts, with fair hair and blue eyes stare at Omran, listening intently. While the 150 or so men watch the sheik, who stands on an elevated podium, hands gripping a railing, delivering a qutbah, women sit in a room adjacent, listening through a speaker. In the week following the second Bali attacks, Omran's Friday sermon, conducted in Arabic and English, talks about the fear Westerners have of Ramadan, as history has shown an increase in militant insurgencies and attacks across the world during that month. "The West know the meaning of Ramadan more than we do it seems," says the imam, who migrated from Jordan in the 1980s. "They fear the worst: unity. So what are we doing to unite and defeat evil?" He says Islamic unity and victory in the face of the West cannot be "stopped by George Bush or Tony Blair or John Howard". "If you don't unite, your faces will be smeared in dirt," he adds. Both Zoud's and Omran's prayer groups teach Wahhabism, a fundamentalist branch of Islam founded in Saudi Arabia in the 1700s that inspired the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan and is preached by the world's most notorious terrorist: Osama bin Laden, leader of al-Qa'ida. Yet the voices of such home-based extremists by no means define the majority of Islamic messages being preached by Muslim clerics across the country. Sheik Fehmi Naji al-Imam, one of Australia's most prominent Muslim leaders and the head of the Preston Mosque, Victoria's largest mosque in Melbourne's inner-north, isn't discussing politics during a Friday sermon last month. Instead, he is leading a group of more than 50 men through an Arabic prayer from the Koran. On completion, he sits at the front of the room and faces his followers. A junior cleric then sits beside Naji al-Imam and discusses the importance of praying to God and of not feeling a sense of helplessness or hopelessness should one suspect their personal prayer is not being answered. The cleric says people are often disappointed when their prayers for more financial wealth don't come to fruition. "You might pray for thousands of dollars and feel like your prayers aren't being answered," he says in Arabic. "But what you've got to remember is he might have saved you from a car accident and [thus] saved you $10,000." Zoud has formerly been accused of having links to terror suspects and recruiting for jihad. And although he has denied such accusations, he cannot deny the fact his prayer centre, located in Sydney's Muslim heartland, has attracted terror suspects, including Frenchman Willie Brigitte, arrested and deported to Paris in 2003 for allegedly plotting a bomb attack on Sydney's naval base; and former Qantas baggage handler Bilal Khazal, who is facing terrorism-related charges in Australia. Friday sermons at the Haldon Street and Michael Street prayer centres are predominantly geared towards political issues affecting Muslims across the world. The US and President George W. Bush figure prominently in Zoud's and Omran's sermons. "Last night, President Bush said that the so-called fanatic Muslims would like to build an empire reaching from Indonesia to Spain," Omran said during his October 7 sermon. "And he has not said anything as truer or more accurate. What is wrong with doing that? ... What are we doing to achieve that objective?" Omran's call to action goes even further during a Friday sermon at Michael Street conducted the following week by Harun Abu Talha, news editor of Mecca News, published by the Ahlus Sunnah Wal-Jamaah organisation led by Omran. During the predominantly English qutbah, the cleric says: "We should not compromise our deen [religion] for the sake of peace." It is a message greeted by collective nods from a group of more than 100 men, many of whom were present at Omran's sermon the previous Friday. Abu Talha discusses the injustices and human rights violations taking place at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp where "so-called terrorists" are detained. "They lock up these so-called [Muslim] terrorists in subhuman conditions," he says. "You wouldn't even keep an animal like that." He urges listeners to "raise your voices" against those who "criticise your deen [religion]". "They criticise and ridicule our religion and have been doing so for a very long time." While Naji al-Imam's service is purely religious, Abu Talha, who is believed to be Bosnian, discusses "our brothers and sisters" who are dying at the hands of Western troops in Afghanistan and begins to discuss the importance of jihad before quipping: "We cannot say too much about mujaheddin in this country." The joke elicits sniggers and laughter from the group. Outside Sydney's largest mosque, the Lakemba Mosque in Wangee Road, which is known for its moderate preachings, a man in his late 20s is walking to his car following the Friday prayer. He opens his car boot and grabs a handful of promotional leaflets about Ramadan. Asked about his thoughts on extremist Muslims ruining the image of Islam, he says: "You got all kinds of Muslim here [in Sydney]. But it's always the few extreme ones who ruin it for the majority, brother." privacy terms ? The Australian From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 7 03:11:24 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:11:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] riots in france In-Reply-To: References: <200511051717.jA5HHje09682@tick.javien.com> <000d01c5e237$64707f20$fabc1b97@administxl09yj> <436D61D4.8090707@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > On 11/6/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Funny, I know quite a few well-integrated Muslims. Looking back in > > Obviously. > If they weren't particularly integrated you wouldn't know them. > Let me guess - those Moslems were well educated middle class > professionals? A mix of folks with a couple of blue collar families thrown in. But mostly middle class. > > history, riots, especially of the poor, are not generally religion- > centric. These particular riots are not claimed, or led by any > Islamic group. So is this a case of guilt by association and seeing > evidence for what one already believes? > > It is evidence of a religiously (self) defined self ghettoising and > generally racially distinct underclass that may well be a permanent > feature of the European landscape. Many distinct cultural groups were long self-ghettoized or ghettoized by external pressure is US history. Many of my older friends grew up in large cities that effectively had pretty separate Polish, Irish. Jewish, Puerto Rican, Italian and Black communities and sections of the city. Some of these fully qualified as ghettos. I don't think there is enough data here to claim that the problem is Muslim or one of Muslim separatism or self-ghettoization. - samantha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 7 03:13:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:13:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051106205417.01d14660@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200511070313.jA73DTe05965@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick ... > > well... from the Australian newspaper recently: > > ========= > > > A call to hate and to prayer > > Support for holy war is being urged by Muslim preachers spreading their > message in Australia, reports Richard Kerbaj, who visited mosques and > heard > voices shrieking with angst and passion > > > 04nov05 > > A VOICE explodes through the speakers at Lakemba's nondescript Haldon > Street prayer hall in Sydney's southwest during a Friday (sermon)... The Renault-roast in France just doesn't sound much like the usual jihad: they don't seem to be focused on slaying infidels. They seem to be really raising hell big-time, maybe taking pot shots at the gendarmes, certainly starting as many fires as possible. But the true jihaders specifically wanted to kill as many infidels as possible. Otherwise these guys would be hurling firebombs thru the windows of apartment buildings instead of unoccupied cars. spike From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 7 03:21:55 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:21:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] economics of scarcity to economics of plenty In-Reply-To: <20051106210110.GW2249@leitl.org> References: <200510301900.j9UJ0Ke07580@tick.javien.com> <002401c5ddcf$dc431600$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001f01c5de15$8d080640$0801a8c0@EF02jack> <20051106210110.GW2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2005, at 1:01 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > It took Firefox to tell you that? Dirty hippie software well > predates Microsoft. Dirty hippie software is pretty much where it all began. Including Microsoft. Starting even in the middle of the 60s and certainly in the 70s and early 80s. The suits didn't real show up that massively until the mid 80s. I was around when two of the long-haired techno-hippies unveiled a funny prototype built in a case that was a wooden box. There names were both Steve. Almost all the early hackers, some of which founded companies that became household names, were hippies in dress, choice of recreational drugs, social style and so on. I guess some of us qualified as "dirty". - samantha From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Mon Nov 7 03:24:14 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 22:24:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <200511070313.jA73DTe05965@tick.javien.com> References: <200511070313.jA73DTe05965@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <436EC8DE.4090909@goldenfuture.net> spike wrote: >The Renault-roast in France > Heh... love that term. Kudos! >just doesn't sound much >like the usual jihad: they don't seem to be focused >on slaying infidels. They seem to be really raising >hell big-time, maybe taking pot shots at the gendarmes, >certainly starting as many fires as possible. But the >true jihaders specifically wanted to kill as many >infidels as possible. Otherwise these guys would be >hurling firebombs thru the windows of apartment >buildings instead of unoccupied cars. > The worry is, that it will morph from the one into the other. It must be stopped before it does. They've already found a bomb-making factory. It's entirely possible that it's too late. Joseph From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Mon Nov 7 03:31:00 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:31:00 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: <002001c5e34b$c37c9020$0801a8c0@EF02jack> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Bloch" To: "Jack Parkinson" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france > Jack Parkinson wrote: > > > PEOPLE (of any race or creed) live in ghettos in any part of the > > world where they feel the need to support each other against a > > hostile environment. > > Then why do they move into a hostile environment in the first place? And > then stay? For some groups - hostility is a fact of life - it's only the amount they actually suffer at any one time/place that varies. Where could you go if you were an African-American in the 1950's and 60's? Where could Jewish people go in 1939? What were the options for for French Protestants in 1560? Where could peaceful Iraquis go when they bailed out of their own country in the 1990's? What would you have done as an ethnic Tutsi in Rwanda in 1994? You may think of the world as a friendly place - but for many it isn't! > > "France treats us badly" they say. > Well, then, move the hell out of France, rather than trying to burn it down. >\Can't believe I'm defending France. There are not too many virgin continents to send a new Mayflower too! Jack Parkinson From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 7 03:40:19 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:40:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051106205417.01d14660@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <6.2.1.2.0.20051106205417.01d14660@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <02AF9D78-B7D0-4CEF-9AFA-73670B5A0DCB@mac.com> Did not some, even some of us, predict this kind of response from some Muslims when we attacked Iraq for (as we increasingly cannot deny) bogus reasons? Do we really expect attack and foreign occupation of Iraq to say anything good to most Arab Muslims about the US, its intentions or our ways? It was a disastrous move on pretty much every level. We will probably ride the reaction[s] as excusing even more disastrous moves. Just what the new century needed, a world-wide religion based hot and cold armed conflict. Great AI, please beam me up! It's a madhouse. - samantha On Nov 6, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 09:30 AM 11/7/2005 +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > >> If the environment is not ostile - the ghettoes disappear. There >> are no Moslem ghettoes in Australia, or China for that matter - >> and NOT coincidentally there is a general acceptance and tolerance >> between Moslem/Christian/Buddhists in these places. >> > > well... from the Australian newspaper recently: > > ========= > > > A call to hate and to prayer > > Support for holy war is being urged by Muslim preachers spreading > their message in Australia, reports Richard Kerbaj, who visited > mosques and heard voices shrieking with angst and passion > > > 04nov05 > > A VOICE explodes through the speakers at Lakemba's nondescript > Haldon Street prayer hall in Sydney's southwest during a Friday > qutbah (sermon). About 400 men - Saudis, Indonesians, Somalis and > Lebanese among them - are huddled shoulder to shoulder, seated or > kneeling on the floor of the hall, above a gym. A few stare blankly > ahead, others have their eyes shut and faces cupped with their > palms, almost in a trance-like, meditative state. > > It's October 21, the middle of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, and > Sheik Abdul Salam Mohammed Zoud, who has been living in Australia > since the mid-1990s, stands on a platform at the front of the room > reading his sermon in Arabic. > > "Ramadan is not a month for indolence," he screams through a lapel > microphone, drawing on Koranic parables about the importance of > annihilating al-adou (the enemy) and stressing the Koranic > obligation of jihad (spiritual struggle or holy war) during the > month of fasting. His voice can be heard clearly in the car park > outside. > > "Ramadan is a month for jihad upon oneself and jihad upon the > enemy," he says, a time when followers must become more disciplined > in adhering to the message of the Koran, and more willing and > prepared to topple the enemy of Islam: the West. > > Listeners nod approvingly as Zoud praises mujaheddin - guerilla > warriors engaged in holy war - who are waging bloody battles > against Western troops across the world, and implores Allah to > grant them victory in their fight against the enemies of Islam. > > "Allah yinsur el-mujaheddin fe-Iraq (God grant victory to the > mujaheddin in Iraq)," he screams, his voice crackling as he defies > his own vocal range. He then repeats the message three times, each > time screaming it louder and with more intensely. > > Twice at the end of the 35-minute oration in front of the men, who > are mostly in their 30s and 40s, the sheik exclaims in a voice > filled with angst and passion, blame and hate: "Inshallah (God > willing) dark days will descend upon America soon." > > Two Fridays earlier, at a prayer centre at Michael Street in > Brunswick, Melbourne's Muslim heartland, the man regarded as > Australia's most radical imam, Sheik Mohammed Omran, stands before > his mixed band of followers. > > Earlier, the men had left their shoes in the corridor and walked > into the room. On entering the mussalah, they're greeted by whoever > they make eye contact with. > > "Assalam alaikum" (peace be with you) is acknowledged by the person > being greeted with "Wa-alaikum assalam" (peace be with you too). An > A4-sized piece of paper on the wall reminds attendees to switch off > their mobile phones. > > Some kneel and pray, others grab a copy of the Koran off the > bookshelf at the back of the room, and read it quietly. > > Off-duty taxi drivers, suited businessmen on their lunch breaks and > youngsters wearing baseball caps and tracksuits sit among the > traditionally clad listeners wearing dishdashas (gowns) and > sporting beards. Several Western converts, with fair hair and blue > eyes stare at Omran, listening intently. While the 150 or so men > watch the sheik, who stands on an elevated podium, hands gripping a > railing, delivering a qutbah, women sit in a room adjacent, > listening through a speaker. > > In the week following the second Bali attacks, Omran's Friday > sermon, conducted in Arabic and English, talks about the fear > Westerners have of Ramadan, as history has shown an increase in > militant insurgencies and attacks across the world during that > month. "The West know the meaning of Ramadan more than we do it > seems," says the imam, who migrated from Jordan in the 1980s. "They > fear the worst: unity. So what are we doing to unite and defeat evil?" > > He says Islamic unity and victory in the face of the West cannot be > "stopped by George Bush or Tony Blair or John Howard". > > "If you don't unite, your faces will be smeared in dirt," he adds. > > Both Zoud's and Omran's prayer groups teach Wahhabism, a > fundamentalist branch of Islam founded in Saudi Arabia in the 1700s > that inspired the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan and is > preached by the world's most notorious terrorist: Osama bin Laden, > leader of al-Qa'ida. > > Yet the voices of such home-based extremists by no means define the > majority of Islamic messages being preached by Muslim clerics > across the country. > > Sheik Fehmi Naji al-Imam, one of Australia's most prominent Muslim > leaders and the head of the Preston Mosque, Victoria's largest > mosque in Melbourne's inner-north, isn't discussing politics during > a Friday sermon last month. Instead, he is leading a group of more > than 50 men through an Arabic prayer from the Koran. On completion, > he sits at the front of the room and faces his followers. > > A junior cleric then sits beside Naji al-Imam and discusses the > importance of praying to God and of not feeling a sense of > helplessness or hopelessness should one suspect their personal > prayer is not being answered. > > The cleric says people are often disappointed when their prayers > for more financial wealth don't come to fruition. > > "You might pray for thousands of dollars and feel like your prayers > aren't being answered," he says in Arabic. "But what you've got to > remember is he might have saved you from a car accident and [thus] > saved you $10,000." > > Zoud has formerly been accused of having links to terror suspects > and recruiting for jihad. And although he has denied such > accusations, he cannot deny the fact his prayer centre, located in > Sydney's Muslim heartland, has attracted terror suspects, including > Frenchman Willie Brigitte, arrested and deported to Paris in 2003 > for allegedly plotting a bomb attack on Sydney's naval base; and > former Qantas baggage handler Bilal Khazal, who is facing terrorism- > related charges in Australia. > > Friday sermons at the Haldon Street and Michael Street prayer > centres are predominantly geared towards political issues affecting > Muslims across the world. The US and President George W. Bush > figure prominently in Zoud's and Omran's sermons. > > "Last night, President Bush said that the so-called fanatic Muslims > would like to build an empire reaching from Indonesia to Spain," > Omran said during his October 7 sermon. "And he has not said > anything as truer or more accurate. What is wrong with doing > that? ... What are we doing to achieve that objective?" > > Omran's call to action goes even further during a Friday sermon at > Michael Street conducted the following week by Harun Abu Talha, > news editor of Mecca News, published by the Ahlus Sunnah Wal-Jamaah > organisation led by Omran. > > During the predominantly English qutbah, the cleric says: "We > should not compromise our deen [religion] for the sake of peace." > It is a message greeted by collective nods from a group of more > than 100 men, many of whom were present at Omran's sermon the > previous Friday. > > Abu Talha discusses the injustices and human rights violations > taking place at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp where "so-called > terrorists" are detained. > > "They lock up these so-called [Muslim] terrorists in subhuman > conditions," he says. "You wouldn't even keep an animal like that." > He urges listeners to "raise your voices" against those who > "criticise your deen [religion]". > > "They criticise and ridicule our religion and have been doing so > for a very long time." > > While Naji al-Imam's service is purely religious, Abu Talha, who is > believed to be Bosnian, discusses "our brothers and sisters" who > are dying at the hands of Western troops in Afghanistan and begins > to discuss the importance of jihad before quipping: "We cannot say > too much about mujaheddin in this country." The joke elicits > sniggers and laughter from the group. > > Outside Sydney's largest mosque, the Lakemba Mosque in Wangee Road, > which is known for its moderate preachings, a man in his late 20s > is walking to his car following the Friday prayer. He opens his car > boot and grabs a handful of promotional leaflets about Ramadan. > Asked about his thoughts on extremist Muslims ruining the image of > Islam, he says: "You got all kinds of Muslim here [in Sydney]. But > it's always the few extreme ones who ruin it for the majority, > brother." > > privacy terms ? The Australian > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Nov 7 05:51:16 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:51:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <002001c5e34b$c37c9020$0801a8c0@EF02jack> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> <002001c5e34b$c37c9020$0801a8c0@EF02jack> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051107004813.07b30150@unreasonable.com> Jack Parkinson wrote: >There are not too many virgin continents to send a new Mayflower too! What an odd thing to say on this list. Sure there are. Trillions of them, just waiting. Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning. -- David. From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 7 06:08:02 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:08:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051107004813.07b30150@unreasonable.com> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> <002001c5e34b$c37c9020$0801a8c0@EF02jack> <6.2.3.4.2.20051107004813.07b30150@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051107000551.01cb6a00@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:51 AM 11/7/2005 -0500, David Lubkin wrote: >Jack Parkinson wrote: > >>There are not too many virgin continents to send a new Mayflower too! > >What an odd thing to say on this list. > >Sure there are. Trillions of them, just waiting. Second star to the right, >and straight on 'til morning. Yeah, and all those immigrant un[der]employed Muslims should just knuckle down and save up their spare francs and stop their whining and build a starship like the rest of us do. Or not. Damien Broderick From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Nov 7 06:46:28 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 22:46:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: <20051107064628.GA13915@ofb.net> On Sun, Nov 06, 2005 at 08:48:11PM -0500, Joseph Bloch wrote: > Jack Parkinson wrote: > > > PEOPLE (of any race or creed) live in ghettos in any part of the > >world where they feel the need to support each other against a > >hostile environment. > > Then why do they move into a hostile environment in the first place? And > then stay? The young ones burning cars were probably *born* in France. I'm no expert on France, but I know large labor strikes are more common and disruptive than here. Not that this is the same, but I wonder if in fact they haven't assimilated somewhat. "Large public disturbances R us!" -xx- Damien X-) From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 7 07:33:01 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 23:33:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] who sez we can't trust the commie press? In-Reply-To: <200511051841.jA5If5e17565@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051107073302.12506.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > The evidence is clear: those areas in the U.S. that > have resisted communus fluoridation, known as the > red states, seem to have greater problems with tooth > decay. For a minute there I thought you said truth decay. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From amara at amara.com Mon Nov 7 07:43:55 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:43:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France Message-ID: I suggest to take a look here: http://www.brook.edu/fp/cusf/analysis/immigration.htm Immigration Policy in France U.S.-France Analysis, January 1, 2002 Virginie Guiraudon, National Center for Scientific Research The latter part is particularly relevant: ================================================================== By the early 1990s, even though immigration in all categories of legal entries had fallen, Jean-Marie Le Pen's extreme-right National Front party was attracting a significant portion of the electorate with its demagogic demand to expel Muslim immigrants from France. Politicians across the political spectrum responded by arguing in favor of "immigration z?ro," and the right-wing coalition that came into power in 1993 translated the principle of zero immigration into policy. The "Pasqua law" of 1993, named after French interior minister Charles Pasqua, sought to stem the remaining legal flows in a variety of ways: by prohibiting foreign graduates from accepting job offers by French employers and denying them a stable residence status, by increasing the waiting period for family reunification from one to two years, and by denying residency permits to foreign spouses who had been illegally in the country prior to marrying. These repressive measures rendered formerly legal migration flows illegal. Thus today, in spite of a partial regularization of undocumented aliens in 1997, there are still many people living in France known as inexpulsables-irr?gularisables. This group-including rejected asylum-seekers from countries to which it is not safe to return, and foreign parents of French children-cannot be expelled, yet is not eligible for residency permits. They epitomize the contradictions of liberal democracies in the face of migration pressure, caught between respecting the human rights and norms embedded in domestic and international law, and an electoral logic that leads politicians to adopt a restrictive stance towards immigration. The 1998 Law on Immigration When Socialist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin came into office in 1997, he chose the prominent political scientist Patrick Weil to write a report, L'immigration et la nationalit?, that laid the groundwork for a new immigration law adopted in 1998. Weil argued that the 1993 Pasqua law deterred foreign students and young professionals from settling in France. It thereby deprived the country of a source of human capital and undermined its national interests in the global competition for the brightest minds. Weil?s policy recommendations were in fact inspired by the American model, in particular the US visa provisions for highly skilled immigrants. The 1998 law on immigration created a special status for scientists and for scholars. Further measures introduced that year aimed at easing the conditions of entry for certain highly skilled professional categories. Computer experts earning more than 180,000 FF per year, and highly qualified temporary workers earning more than 23,000 FF per month, both benefit from a simplified procedure and, if they obtain a one-year permit, can request family reunification. Despite these reforms, France still appears to lag behind the United States, Germany, and the United Kingdom in its quest for highly skilled mobile labor. Three years after the 1998 law on immigration and residency, France's political left and right appear to have agreed not to disagree on immigration, at least at the national level. The new consensus still privileges the restrictive function of immigration policy. And the emerging EU regime on immigration and asylum, negotiated by national interior and justice ministry bureaucrats, is also characterized by a general policy of restrictiveness. Yet, as the East Sea episode has shown, policy instruments such as visas and carrier sanctions that seek to prevent "unwanted" migrants from reaching Europe?s border have not stopped their arrival. They have instead criminalized the migration process itself, and raised the demand for smuggling networks and their lucre. France and the European Union today are witnessing the same perverse effects that the US experienced along its Mexican border, where new restrictions in some states only redirected flows to others, and raised the price of illegal passage. ================================================================== The part of France's policy regarding professionals is particularly interesting to me. I have a report in Italian from a workshop I attended last May about the 'Brain Drain' (from Italy, France, other EU countries), that I need some time to translate to understand more. I would like to know if France makes it easier or harder than Italy for skilled immigrants because at least France distinguishes skilled from unskilled workers; Italy does not. I'm in exactly the same illegal immigrant category in Italy as those that sneaked in by boat from Africa. Italy's present immigration policies, like France's were formed by extreme right ring factions (Fini.. former Fascist Party) of Italy's government. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It is intriguing to learn that the simplicity of the world depends upon the temperature of the environment." ---John D. Barrow From eugen at leitl.org Mon Nov 7 09:43:33 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:43:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] [selected.by.rael@rael-science.org: [rael-science] La Haine: Schools, synagogues and hundreds of cars burn. It's Paris 2005] Message-ID: <20051107094333.GJ2249@leitl.org> Some background on the riots in France. ----- Forwarded message from selected by Rael ----- From: selected by Rael Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:13:25 +0100 To: rael-science-select at yahoogroups.com Subject: [rael-science] La Haine: Schools, synagogues and hundreds of cars burn. It's Paris 2005 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Reply-To: rael-science-select-owner at yahoogroups.com Source: The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article325153.ece La Haine: Schools, synagogues and hundreds of cars burn. It's Paris 2005 The 1996 hit film showed a French capital in flames as its underclass rioted. That was fiction. This time it's for real. Hugh Schofield reports from the streets of a suburb its inhabitants now call Baghdad-sur-Seine 06 November 2005 France's worst urban violence since 1968 spread this weekend, with riots in Toulouse, Marseille, Lille and Rouen after more than a week's unrest in the deprived areas around Paris. On Friday there were attacks on schools, a town hall and a synagogue, and more than 750 cars were burnt out. At least 250 people were arrested. At Aulnay-sous-Bois, one of the worst-affected towns in the eastern Paris suburbs, a group of five or six adolescents in baseball caps and hooded sweatshirts lounged last week in the parking lot of the notorious estate known as the City of the 3,000. Across the dual carriageway that fronts the grim complex, a Renault garage lay in black cinders. Police and passers-by took photographs with their mobile phones. Elsewhere in the town, which is in most parts a safe and genteel area not far from Charles de Gaulle airport, burnt-out cars littered the pavement. A faint smell mixing tear gas and smoke still lingered in the air. Among Abdelkarim and his friends, no one bothered to deny that they were in the thick of it the night before. "In the olden days this used to be a huge forest. It was called the For?t de Bondy. In those days there used to be highwaymen who cut the throats of the people in the carriages when they came through. That's what we are - like pirates," laughed Abdelkarim, 20. His story was of poverty, discrimination, dreams of his ancestral homeland of Morocco - and also of anti-Semitism, regular consumption of hashish and a swaggering satisfaction with his record of car theft, prison and violence. "Look around you - there is nothing here. We live four to a room. Our parents go to work like zombies. But we have nothing. Even the jobs around here go to people from elsewhere. This parking lot is like our living room," he said. The surroundings are indeed grim. The City of the 3,000 consists of a series of long low-rise buildings made of the cheapest 1970s materials and painted an unsavoury off-white. Patches of scrubby grass are covered in rubbish and upturned wheelie bins. "The police know us all by name. But when they come they still beat down the door and order our parents to lie on the ground. And when they ask where we are from, we give our addresses, but they say: 'You're not from here. You're from Africa,'" he said. Though he modestly declined the appellation, Abdelkarim is the local "caid" - the Arabic word means leader - and he happily boasted of the ?2,000 which he makes from each car stolen. "You want prostitutes, DVD players, jewellery? I can get anything you want," he said. One of his friends, Karim, aged 15, pulled back his sleeves to reveal gold bracelets and then opened his shirt to show a gold chain. Both nicked, he winked. Another boy held a mobile phone. "Come and look," he gestured, laughing. It was a short film of a Chechen guerrilla cutting off the head of a Russian soldier. These are the people who since 27 October have had the French government running scared. Their grievances - racism, poverty, lack of jobs - have changed little since the first disturbances in the banlieues broke out more than 15 years ago, later portrayed in the 1996 film La Haine (Hatred). But where before protesters demanded financial aid and change within the system, many of today's rioters seem motivated more by a nihilistic rejection of all that surrounds them. "I hate France, and the French hate us," said Abdelkarim. "The wicked get punished. See what happened after the Americans made war on Iraq? Allah sent the hurricane. We are getting our revenge." For President Jacques Chirac - and his uneasy cabinet tandem of Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin and Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy - this stark aggression is proof of the colossal failure of past policies to integrate France's five million-strong Arab minority. Successive governments have invoked the mantra of republican equality to block special measures to favour immigrants, arguing that the country's system of integration would work in time. But in practice Arabs continue to suffer from widespread discrimination in employment and housing. Unofficial statistics - there are no official ones - show that a hugely disproportionate number of young Arab males are in prison or out of work. Alienation has been fed by the almost total absence of Muslim or African leaders in politics and the media. While Britain has dozens of MPs and other public figures of African or Asian origin, France has virtually none. Meanwhile, there is the constant affront of being obliged to live in the bleak out-of-town estates that have become synonymous with deprivation and violence. Even before this latest wave of rioting, some 28,000 cars were burnt in small-scale riots in France in the first 10 months of the year. "From my window I can see the Eiffel Tower," said Abdelkarim. "But Paris is another world. This is Baghdad." Britain has had a different experience of immigration. Communities have been encouraged to maintain their identities - anathema in France - and moved into the inner parts of the main towns and cities. There is poverty, but employment. In Birmingham two weeks ago the riots were between two groups competing for space. In France the target is different: wealth, authority, the nation. Benyahya Makhlouf, a 53-year-old taxi driver who emigrated from Algeria 20 years ago, said that he sympathises with the protesters. "They packed them into these estates and it was like living in a cage. Of course they were going to explode," he said. "The children just give up." But Mr Makhlouf also supported the hardline policing ideas of Mr Sarkozy. "How am I supposed to inculcate the work ethic in my son, when his friends have Nikes given to them by their drug-dealer fathers? At least Sarkozy wants to restore order." The name evokes different emotions among the rioters. "Ever since Sarko came into the government, life has been merde," said Kamel, 16. "He treats us like dogs - well, we'll show him how dogs can react." On this point, he and the outspoken minister, who talks of "cleaning out" the "racaille" (riff-raff), are speaking the same language. He sees the riots as a clear attempt by the caids to take back control, and is determined to stop them. PAST PROTESTS From the storming of the Bastille, the image of Paris has been inseparable from that of revolution. Sanctified in the words of the 'Marseillaise', this reverence for the revolutionary spirit has lent a degree of legitimacy to violent protests. 1789 Mother of revolutions. The Paris mob - the sans-culottes of legend - overthrow the monarchy. Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette are guillotined 1830 The Bourbons, restored after Napoleon's defeat in 1815, are driven out as Paris rises up, sending Charles X into exile 1848 Amid unrest across Europe, a small riot in Paris causes the constitutional monarch Louis Philippe to flee 1871 After France's defeat by Prussia on the battlefield, riots break out again in Paris, giving birth to the revolutionary but short-lived Paris Commune 1968 Students pull up the Latin Quarter's cobblestones in revolt against Charles de Gaulle's rule. Workers go on strike too, weakening the government fatally ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From jonano at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 10:20:48 2005 From: jonano at gmail.com (Jonathan Despres) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 05:20:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Please Join NanoAging Frappr for your support of my cause Message-ID: <6030482a0511070220q6a8a0b10yeac184373b511030@mail.gmail.com> Please Join NanoAging Frappr for your support of my cause http://www.frappr.com/thenanoaginginstitute Let me know, --Jon From kevin at kevinfreels.com Mon Nov 7 13:42:35 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:42:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com><009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer><6.2.1.2.0.20051106205417.01d14660@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <02AF9D78-B7D0-4CEF-9AFA-73670B5A0DCB@mac.com> Message-ID: <002a01c5e3a1$1cb5e650$0100a8c0@kevin> I just love this. Samantha has actually attempted to connect muslim riots on France to US activities in Iraq. What a stretch! Of course, no mention of the muslim ghetto people in the US rioting. AND of course, all the people being tortured and killed by the hundreds of thousands in Iraq by Saddam are turning in their graves wishing we weren't there as well. And what century before went without a relgion based world-wide conflict? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samantha Atkins" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france > Did not some, even some of us, predict this kind of response from > some Muslims when we attacked Iraq for (as we increasingly cannot > deny) bogus reasons? Do we really expect attack and foreign > occupation of Iraq to say anything good to most Arab Muslims about > the US, its intentions or our ways? It was a disastrous move on > pretty much every level. We will probably ride the reaction[s] as > excusing even more disastrous moves. Just what the new century > needed, a world-wide religion based hot and cold armed conflict. > Great AI, please beam me up! It's a madhouse. > > - samantha > > On Nov 6, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > At 09:30 AM 11/7/2005 +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > > > > >> If the environment is not ostile - the ghettoes disappear. There > >> are no Moslem ghettoes in Australia, or China for that matter - > >> and NOT coincidentally there is a general acceptance and tolerance > >> between Moslem/Christian/Buddhists in these places. > >> > > > > well... from the Australian newspaper recently: > > > > ========= > > > > > > A call to hate and to prayer > > > > Support for holy war is being urged by Muslim preachers spreading > > their message in Australia, reports Richard Kerbaj, who visited > > mosques and heard voices shrieking with angst and passion > > > > > > 04nov05 > > > > A VOICE explodes through the speakers at Lakemba's nondescript > > Haldon Street prayer hall in Sydney's southwest during a Friday > > qutbah (sermon). About 400 men - Saudis, Indonesians, Somalis and > > Lebanese among them - are huddled shoulder to shoulder, seated or > > kneeling on the floor of the hall, above a gym. A few stare blankly > > ahead, others have their eyes shut and faces cupped with their > > palms, almost in a trance-like, meditative state. > > > > It's October 21, the middle of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, and > > Sheik Abdul Salam Mohammed Zoud, who has been living in Australia > > since the mid-1990s, stands on a platform at the front of the room > > reading his sermon in Arabic. > > > > "Ramadan is not a month for indolence," he screams through a lapel > > microphone, drawing on Koranic parables about the importance of > > annihilating al-adou (the enemy) and stressing the Koranic > > obligation of jihad (spiritual struggle or holy war) during the > > month of fasting. His voice can be heard clearly in the car park > > outside. > > > > "Ramadan is a month for jihad upon oneself and jihad upon the > > enemy," he says, a time when followers must become more disciplined > > in adhering to the message of the Koran, and more willing and > > prepared to topple the enemy of Islam: the West. > > > > Listeners nod approvingly as Zoud praises mujaheddin - guerilla > > warriors engaged in holy war - who are waging bloody battles > > against Western troops across the world, and implores Allah to > > grant them victory in their fight against the enemies of Islam. > > > > "Allah yinsur el-mujaheddin fe-Iraq (God grant victory to the > > mujaheddin in Iraq)," he screams, his voice crackling as he defies > > his own vocal range. He then repeats the message three times, each > > time screaming it louder and with more intensely. > > > > Twice at the end of the 35-minute oration in front of the men, who > > are mostly in their 30s and 40s, the sheik exclaims in a voice > > filled with angst and passion, blame and hate: "Inshallah (God > > willing) dark days will descend upon America soon." > > > > Two Fridays earlier, at a prayer centre at Michael Street in > > Brunswick, Melbourne's Muslim heartland, the man regarded as > > Australia's most radical imam, Sheik Mohammed Omran, stands before > > his mixed band of followers. > > > > Earlier, the men had left their shoes in the corridor and walked > > into the room. On entering the mussalah, they're greeted by whoever > > they make eye contact with. > > > > "Assalam alaikum" (peace be with you) is acknowledged by the person > > being greeted with "Wa-alaikum assalam" (peace be with you too). An > > A4-sized piece of paper on the wall reminds attendees to switch off > > their mobile phones. > > > > Some kneel and pray, others grab a copy of the Koran off the > > bookshelf at the back of the room, and read it quietly. > > > > Off-duty taxi drivers, suited businessmen on their lunch breaks and > > youngsters wearing baseball caps and tracksuits sit among the > > traditionally clad listeners wearing dishdashas (gowns) and > > sporting beards. Several Western converts, with fair hair and blue > > eyes stare at Omran, listening intently. While the 150 or so men > > watch the sheik, who stands on an elevated podium, hands gripping a > > railing, delivering a qutbah, women sit in a room adjacent, > > listening through a speaker. > > > > In the week following the second Bali attacks, Omran's Friday > > sermon, conducted in Arabic and English, talks about the fear > > Westerners have of Ramadan, as history has shown an increase in > > militant insurgencies and attacks across the world during that > > month. "The West know the meaning of Ramadan more than we do it > > seems," says the imam, who migrated from Jordan in the 1980s. "They > > fear the worst: unity. So what are we doing to unite and defeat evil?" > > > > He says Islamic unity and victory in the face of the West cannot be > > "stopped by George Bush or Tony Blair or John Howard". > > > > "If you don't unite, your faces will be smeared in dirt," he adds. > > > > Both Zoud's and Omran's prayer groups teach Wahhabism, a > > fundamentalist branch of Islam founded in Saudi Arabia in the 1700s > > that inspired the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan and is > > preached by the world's most notorious terrorist: Osama bin Laden, > > leader of al-Qa'ida. > > > > Yet the voices of such home-based extremists by no means define the > > majority of Islamic messages being preached by Muslim clerics > > across the country. > > > > Sheik Fehmi Naji al-Imam, one of Australia's most prominent Muslim > > leaders and the head of the Preston Mosque, Victoria's largest > > mosque in Melbourne's inner-north, isn't discussing politics during > > a Friday sermon last month. Instead, he is leading a group of more > > than 50 men through an Arabic prayer from the Koran. On completion, > > he sits at the front of the room and faces his followers. > > > > A junior cleric then sits beside Naji al-Imam and discusses the > > importance of praying to God and of not feeling a sense of > > helplessness or hopelessness should one suspect their personal > > prayer is not being answered. > > > > The cleric says people are often disappointed when their prayers > > for more financial wealth don't come to fruition. > > > > "You might pray for thousands of dollars and feel like your prayers > > aren't being answered," he says in Arabic. "But what you've got to > > remember is he might have saved you from a car accident and [thus] > > saved you $10,000." > > > > Zoud has formerly been accused of having links to terror suspects > > and recruiting for jihad. And although he has denied such > > accusations, he cannot deny the fact his prayer centre, located in > > Sydney's Muslim heartland, has attracted terror suspects, including > > Frenchman Willie Brigitte, arrested and deported to Paris in 2003 > > for allegedly plotting a bomb attack on Sydney's naval base; and > > former Qantas baggage handler Bilal Khazal, who is facing terrorism- > > related charges in Australia. > > > > Friday sermons at the Haldon Street and Michael Street prayer > > centres are predominantly geared towards political issues affecting > > Muslims across the world. The US and President George W. Bush > > figure prominently in Zoud's and Omran's sermons. > > > > "Last night, President Bush said that the so-called fanatic Muslims > > would like to build an empire reaching from Indonesia to Spain," > > Omran said during his October 7 sermon. "And he has not said > > anything as truer or more accurate. What is wrong with doing > > that? ... What are we doing to achieve that objective?" > > > > Omran's call to action goes even further during a Friday sermon at > > Michael Street conducted the following week by Harun Abu Talha, > > news editor of Mecca News, published by the Ahlus Sunnah Wal-Jamaah > > organisation led by Omran. > > > > During the predominantly English qutbah, the cleric says: "We > > should not compromise our deen [religion] for the sake of peace." > > It is a message greeted by collective nods from a group of more > > than 100 men, many of whom were present at Omran's sermon the > > previous Friday. > > > > Abu Talha discusses the injustices and human rights violations > > taking place at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp where "so-called > > terrorists" are detained. > > > > "They lock up these so-called [Muslim] terrorists in subhuman > > conditions," he says. "You wouldn't even keep an animal like that." > > He urges listeners to "raise your voices" against those who > > "criticise your deen [religion]". > > > > "They criticise and ridicule our religion and have been doing so > > for a very long time." > > > > While Naji al-Imam's service is purely religious, Abu Talha, who is > > believed to be Bosnian, discusses "our brothers and sisters" who > > are dying at the hands of Western troops in Afghanistan and begins > > to discuss the importance of jihad before quipping: "We cannot say > > too much about mujaheddin in this country." The joke elicits > > sniggers and laughter from the group. > > > > Outside Sydney's largest mosque, the Lakemba Mosque in Wangee Road, > > which is known for its moderate preachings, a man in his late 20s > > is walking to his car following the Friday prayer. He opens his car > > boot and grabs a handful of promotional leaflets about Ramadan. > > Asked about his thoughts on extremist Muslims ruining the image of > > Islam, he says: "You got all kinds of Muslim here [in Sydney]. But > > it's always the few extreme ones who ruin it for the majority, > > brother." > > > > privacy terms ? The Australian > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 14:23:25 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:23:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoaging Institute fraud Message-ID: <7641ddc60511070623n5aca8c63n18381338248c1342@mail.gmail.com> To all whom it may concern: I would like to state that my name is listed on the Nanoaging Institute's list of advisers without my permission. I have no connection to this institution. Rafal -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Chief Clinical Officer, Gencia Corporation 706 B Forest St. Charlottesville, VA 22903 tel: (434) 295-4800 fax: (434) 295-4951 This electronic message transmission contains information from the biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately. From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Mon Nov 7 14:32:16 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 22:32:16 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 References: <200511070744.jA77iIe00933@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <001901c5e3a8$12b09360$0201a8c0@JPAcer> From: David Lubkin Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france To: ExI chat list Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051107004813.07b30150 at unreasonable.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jack Parkinson wrote: >>There are not too many virgin continents to send a new Mayflower too! >What an odd thing to say on this list. >Sure there are. Trillions of them, just waiting. Second star to the >right, and straight on 'til morning. Can I hitch a lift with you..? Jack Parkinson From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Nov 7 14:39:11 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:39:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] prop 13 and public schools In-Reply-To: <200511051644.jA5GiJe07277@tick.javien.com> References: <200511051644.jA5GiJe07277@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: Your statement(s) seem to indicate that the state does not have intentions in this regard. Property tax is how you force growth. Each home added to a town costs the town money, which increases the property tax (among other things) which forces people with larger amounts of property to sell off parcels; which people build more houses on. Which increases town revenue, lather:rinse:repeat. This is pretty constant, and intentional. ]3 On Nov 5, 2005, at 11:44 AM, spike wrote: > But > property taxes in most yank states lack such controls: if > they raise them too much, people must sell their > property. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Mon Nov 7 15:37:07 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 23:37:07 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france References: <200511070744.jA77iIe00933@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <002201c5e3b1$1d660930$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Dirk wrote: >one of the fundamental features of real integration is intermarriage. >For example, our Black population is intermarrying at an estimated 25-40% >per generation. >Why isn't this happening with Moslems? I agree about intermarriage - this is an absolute hallmark of true integration. However it takes a generation or two to achieve. While the parents have the hang ups and cultural prejudices - the kids just do what comes naturally. Interesting examples - Afghan (Moslem) camel trains opened up the interior of Australia a century or more ago - and Moslems were the founding fathers and respected elder citizens of pioneer towns like Alice Springs. The Liddle family which owns vast tracts of Central Australia today (truly Texas-sized vast) is directly descended from these pioneers and is Afghan, Scots and Aboriginal (in about equal proportions). Further north, the black Chinese Ah Mat family hold corporate sway in the tropical regions of Australia's Northern Territory (part Aboriginal, part English, mostly Chinese) - and at least one family member was in the local parliament when I was last there. Both these families are at least part Moslem. Australia is an excellent example of a place where Moslems have intermarried for several generations and continue to do so now. There are (or have recently been) a number of distinguished Moslems in the legislature, and this group is represented at every level in society. I met my first Irish Moslem in Australia - and this type of cross-cultural marriage is common enough to be quite unremarkable, the intermixing is over a century old - by way of comparison, black/white liaisons were severely frowned upon in England up to at least the early 1960's. This does not mean everything is lightness and joy - there are a few Moslem fundamentalists inciting hate in Australia too. The trouble is - remarks like: >It wasn't Blacks who blew up the trains in London. Fall quite clearly into the 'hate' category as far as I can see... This kind of generalized remark about an entire group simply makes the ignorant assumption of homogeneity where heterogeneity demonstrably exists. Any statement that begins: 'All Moslems/blacks/Irish/Poles... (insert favorite despised minority here) is just a confession of personal prejudice, bigotry and ignorance... Damien mentioned fundamentalist zealots like Sheik Abdul Salam Mohammed Zoud, currently inciting violence and dissent in Australian mosques. He is a bigoted, ignorant, hostile blight on his religion if ever there was one. But you can no more condemn all Moslems for his failings than you can condemn all Catholics for the inquisition. People like him should be deported - if not jailed (inciting racial/religious violence is a serious offence in Australia) But we should be wary of 'collateral damage' when imputing the motives of individuals and aberrant groups to whole sections of the community. Ok - end of rant - but how many times must this point be made? Historically, we have had this lesson rammed home time after time in the last hundred years. If even intelligent people continue to be seduced by the easy transference of blame to 'them' - then the next horrific genocide just looms that bit closer... Jack Parkinson From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 7 16:20:31 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:20:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Please Join NanoAging Frappr for your support of my cause In-Reply-To: <6030482a0511070220q6a8a0b10yeac184373b511030@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6030482a0511070220q6a8a0b10yeac184373b511030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051107101637.03453d30@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 05:20 AM 11/7/2005 -0500, Jonathan Despres wrote: >Please Join NanoAging Frappr for your support of my cause > >http://www.frappr.com/thenanoaginginstitute I pass along, with no comment, these posts from two of the experts listed at that site. Mr. Despres? ========= >You should know that I AM NOT A MEMBER OF THEIR BOARD OF ADVISORS. >I agreed to consider the position if and only if they removed Ronald Klatz >from their Board. >Since they did not do so, I declined to become such a member and have >informed Despres >of this. My name on their website constitutes fraud and >misrepresentation. I urge you >to inform anyone else of this whom you can. > >Yours sincerely, > >Michael Fossel >Michael Fossel, M.D., Ph.D. >Professor of Medicine >Michigan State University ======================= and: ============= To all whom it may concern: I would like to state that my name is listed on the Nanoaging Institute's list of advisers without my permission. I have no connection to this institution. Rafal -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Chief Clinical Officer, Gencia Corporation 706 B Forest St. ====================== Damien Broderick From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Nov 7 17:41:35 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:41:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051107000551.01cb6a00@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> <002001c5e34b$c37c9020$0801a8c0@EF02jack> <6.2.3.4.2.20051107004813.07b30150@unreasonable.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20051107000551.01cb6a00@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051107092621.06ecccd0@unreasonable.com> Damien Broderick wrote: >Yeah, and all those immigrant un[der]employed Muslims should just >knuckle down and save up their spare francs and stop their whining >and build a starship like the rest of us do. > >Or not. My point was that there were (1) new places to go to, (2) where people who find their current circumstances intolerable could go, not whether (3) these particular people can afford to go. Check out Freeman Dyson's cost analysis in "Pilgrims, Saints and Spacemen," _Disturbing the Universe_, pp 118-26 (1979). His reasoning seems sound, and comparably rigorous to Thomas Sowell's treatment of similar questions. The Mayflower expedition -- which is, after all, what Jack referred to -- cost 7.5 man-years of wages per family. The colonists borrowed the funds from investors who stayed home. It took them 22 years to pay off this debt. Dyson believe(d | s) that it is essential to have a frontier as a social safety valve and that we had to get launch costs down to a comparable price before colonizing the asteroids was plausible. Both make sense to me, and I think we could have done this decades ago. I wonder which groups would set out, were it an option today. Of course, when they got there, they'd find a Chabad center on the next rock..... -- David. From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Mon Nov 7 20:04:13 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:04:13 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience Institute DVDs available In-Reply-To: <436B8075.9090201@singinst.org> References: <436B8075.9090201@singinst.org> Message-ID: <200511071804.13343.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Michael, can you send me an e-mail or phone to get in touch with them so that I figure out how to receive this in Brazil? Thanks Diego Caleiro Em Sexta 04 Novembro 2005 13:38, Michael Anissimov escreveu: > Talks given at the recent inaugural symposium for the Redwood Center for > Theoretical Neuroscience Institute (a formerly independent non-profit > funded by Jeff Hawkins, now part of UC Berkeley) are now available as a > DVD. To order, send $5 to: > > *DVD - Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience* > Attn: Guadalupe P. Brandon > University of California > 132 Barker Hall #3190 > Berkeley, CA 94720-3190 > USA > > Make the check out to "UC Regents". Talks included are: > > *Horace Barlow, Cambridge University* > "The Roles of Theory, Commonsense, and Guesswork in Neuroscience" > *Dan Kersten, University of Minnesota* > "Human Object Perception: Theory, Psychophysics & Imaging" > *Sue Becker, McMaster University* > "The role of the hippocampus in memory, contextual gating, stress and > depression" > *Florentin Worgotter, University of Goettingen* > "Learning in Neurons and Robots" > *Discussion* > The Role and Future Prospects for Math/Computational Theories in > Neuroscience > *David Heeger, New York University* > "What fMRI Can Tell Us about How Visual Cortex Works" > *Kevan Martin, ETH/UNI Zurich* > "Canonical Circuits for Neocortex" > *Terry Sejnowski, Salk Institute* > "Dendritic Darwinism" > *Jeff Hawkins, Numenta* > "Prospects and Problems of Cortical Theory" > > This is the cutting edge of neuroscience research. Seems quite > fascinating. I can't wait to check it out! From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 7 20:50:35 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:50:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <002a01c5e3a1$1cb5e650$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <6.2.1.2.0.20051106205417.01d14660@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <02AF9D78-B7D0-4CEF-9AFA-73670B5A0DCB@mac.com> <002a01c5e3a1$1cb5e650$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: They aren't "muslim riots" in the first place. I was responding to an article about some Australian Muslim remarks by some religious leader or not. Which you are quite aware of if you bother to read. So keep your snide remarks unwritten. - samantha On Nov 7, 2005, at 5:42 AM, kevinfreels.com wrote: > I just love this. Samantha has actually attempted to connect muslim > riots on > France to US activities in Iraq. What a stretch! Of course, no > mention of > the muslim ghetto people in the US rioting. AND of course, all the > people > being tortured and killed by the hundreds of thousands in Iraq by > Saddam > are turning in their graves wishing we weren't there as well. And what > century before went without a relgion based world-wide conflict? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Samantha Atkins" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 9:40 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france > > > >> Did not some, even some of us, predict this kind of response from >> some Muslims when we attacked Iraq for (as we increasingly cannot >> deny) bogus reasons? Do we really expect attack and foreign >> occupation of Iraq to say anything good to most Arab Muslims about >> the US, its intentions or our ways? It was a disastrous move on >> pretty much every level. We will probably ride the reaction[s] as >> excusing even more disastrous moves. Just what the new century >> needed, a world-wide religion based hot and cold armed conflict. >> Great AI, please beam me up! It's a madhouse. >> >> - samantha >> >> On Nov 6, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: >> >> >>> At 09:30 AM 11/7/2005 +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> If the environment is not ostile - the ghettoes disappear. There >>>> are no Moslem ghettoes in Australia, or China for that matter - >>>> and NOT coincidentally there is a general acceptance and tolerance >>>> between Moslem/Christian/Buddhists in these places. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> well... from the Australian newspaper recently: >>> >>> ========= >>> >>> >>> A call to hate and to prayer >>> >>> Support for holy war is being urged by Muslim preachers spreading >>> their message in Australia, reports Richard Kerbaj, who visited >>> mosques and heard voices shrieking with angst and passion >>> >>> >>> 04nov05 >>> >>> A VOICE explodes through the speakers at Lakemba's nondescript >>> Haldon Street prayer hall in Sydney's southwest during a Friday >>> qutbah (sermon). About 400 men - Saudis, Indonesians, Somalis and >>> Lebanese among them - are huddled shoulder to shoulder, seated or >>> kneeling on the floor of the hall, above a gym. A few stare blankly >>> ahead, others have their eyes shut and faces cupped with their >>> palms, almost in a trance-like, meditative state. >>> >>> It's October 21, the middle of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, and >>> Sheik Abdul Salam Mohammed Zoud, who has been living in Australia >>> since the mid-1990s, stands on a platform at the front of the room >>> reading his sermon in Arabic. >>> >>> "Ramadan is not a month for indolence," he screams through a lapel >>> microphone, drawing on Koranic parables about the importance of >>> annihilating al-adou (the enemy) and stressing the Koranic >>> obligation of jihad (spiritual struggle or holy war) during the >>> month of fasting. His voice can be heard clearly in the car park >>> outside. >>> >>> "Ramadan is a month for jihad upon oneself and jihad upon the >>> enemy," he says, a time when followers must become more disciplined >>> in adhering to the message of the Koran, and more willing and >>> prepared to topple the enemy of Islam: the West. >>> >>> Listeners nod approvingly as Zoud praises mujaheddin - guerilla >>> warriors engaged in holy war - who are waging bloody battles >>> against Western troops across the world, and implores Allah to >>> grant them victory in their fight against the enemies of Islam. >>> >>> "Allah yinsur el-mujaheddin fe-Iraq (God grant victory to the >>> mujaheddin in Iraq)," he screams, his voice crackling as he defies >>> his own vocal range. He then repeats the message three times, each >>> time screaming it louder and with more intensely. >>> >>> Twice at the end of the 35-minute oration in front of the men, who >>> are mostly in their 30s and 40s, the sheik exclaims in a voice >>> filled with angst and passion, blame and hate: "Inshallah (God >>> willing) dark days will descend upon America soon." >>> >>> Two Fridays earlier, at a prayer centre at Michael Street in >>> Brunswick, Melbourne's Muslim heartland, the man regarded as >>> Australia's most radical imam, Sheik Mohammed Omran, stands before >>> his mixed band of followers. >>> >>> Earlier, the men had left their shoes in the corridor and walked >>> into the room. On entering the mussalah, they're greeted by whoever >>> they make eye contact with. >>> >>> "Assalam alaikum" (peace be with you) is acknowledged by the person >>> being greeted with "Wa-alaikum assalam" (peace be with you too). An >>> A4-sized piece of paper on the wall reminds attendees to switch off >>> their mobile phones. >>> >>> Some kneel and pray, others grab a copy of the Koran off the >>> bookshelf at the back of the room, and read it quietly. >>> >>> Off-duty taxi drivers, suited businessmen on their lunch breaks and >>> youngsters wearing baseball caps and tracksuits sit among the >>> traditionally clad listeners wearing dishdashas (gowns) and >>> sporting beards. Several Western converts, with fair hair and blue >>> eyes stare at Omran, listening intently. While the 150 or so men >>> watch the sheik, who stands on an elevated podium, hands gripping a >>> railing, delivering a qutbah, women sit in a room adjacent, >>> listening through a speaker. >>> >>> In the week following the second Bali attacks, Omran's Friday >>> sermon, conducted in Arabic and English, talks about the fear >>> Westerners have of Ramadan, as history has shown an increase in >>> militant insurgencies and attacks across the world during that >>> month. "The West know the meaning of Ramadan more than we do it >>> seems," says the imam, who migrated from Jordan in the 1980s. "They >>> fear the worst: unity. So what are we doing to unite and defeat >>> evil?" >>> >>> He says Islamic unity and victory in the face of the West cannot be >>> "stopped by George Bush or Tony Blair or John Howard". >>> >>> "If you don't unite, your faces will be smeared in dirt," he adds. >>> >>> Both Zoud's and Omran's prayer groups teach Wahhabism, a >>> fundamentalist branch of Islam founded in Saudi Arabia in the 1700s >>> that inspired the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan and is >>> preached by the world's most notorious terrorist: Osama bin Laden, >>> leader of al-Qa'ida. >>> >>> Yet the voices of such home-based extremists by no means define the >>> majority of Islamic messages being preached by Muslim clerics >>> across the country. >>> >>> Sheik Fehmi Naji al-Imam, one of Australia's most prominent Muslim >>> leaders and the head of the Preston Mosque, Victoria's largest >>> mosque in Melbourne's inner-north, isn't discussing politics during >>> a Friday sermon last month. Instead, he is leading a group of more >>> than 50 men through an Arabic prayer from the Koran. On completion, >>> he sits at the front of the room and faces his followers. >>> >>> A junior cleric then sits beside Naji al-Imam and discusses the >>> importance of praying to God and of not feeling a sense of >>> helplessness or hopelessness should one suspect their personal >>> prayer is not being answered. >>> >>> The cleric says people are often disappointed when their prayers >>> for more financial wealth don't come to fruition. >>> >>> "You might pray for thousands of dollars and feel like your prayers >>> aren't being answered," he says in Arabic. "But what you've got to >>> remember is he might have saved you from a car accident and [thus] >>> saved you $10,000." >>> >>> Zoud has formerly been accused of having links to terror suspects >>> and recruiting for jihad. And although he has denied such >>> accusations, he cannot deny the fact his prayer centre, located in >>> Sydney's Muslim heartland, has attracted terror suspects, including >>> Frenchman Willie Brigitte, arrested and deported to Paris in 2003 >>> for allegedly plotting a bomb attack on Sydney's naval base; and >>> former Qantas baggage handler Bilal Khazal, who is facing terrorism- >>> related charges in Australia. >>> >>> Friday sermons at the Haldon Street and Michael Street prayer >>> centres are predominantly geared towards political issues affecting >>> Muslims across the world. The US and President George W. Bush >>> figure prominently in Zoud's and Omran's sermons. >>> >>> "Last night, President Bush said that the so-called fanatic Muslims >>> would like to build an empire reaching from Indonesia to Spain," >>> Omran said during his October 7 sermon. "And he has not said >>> anything as truer or more accurate. What is wrong with doing >>> that? ... What are we doing to achieve that objective?" >>> >>> Omran's call to action goes even further during a Friday sermon at >>> Michael Street conducted the following week by Harun Abu Talha, >>> news editor of Mecca News, published by the Ahlus Sunnah Wal-Jamaah >>> organisation led by Omran. >>> >>> During the predominantly English qutbah, the cleric says: "We >>> should not compromise our deen [religion] for the sake of peace." >>> It is a message greeted by collective nods from a group of more >>> than 100 men, many of whom were present at Omran's sermon the >>> previous Friday. >>> >>> Abu Talha discusses the injustices and human rights violations >>> taking place at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp where "so-called >>> terrorists" are detained. >>> >>> "They lock up these so-called [Muslim] terrorists in subhuman >>> conditions," he says. "You wouldn't even keep an animal like that." >>> He urges listeners to "raise your voices" against those who >>> "criticise your deen [religion]". >>> >>> "They criticise and ridicule our religion and have been doing so >>> for a very long time." >>> >>> While Naji al-Imam's service is purely religious, Abu Talha, who is >>> believed to be Bosnian, discusses "our brothers and sisters" who >>> are dying at the hands of Western troops in Afghanistan and begins >>> to discuss the importance of jihad before quipping: "We cannot say >>> too much about mujaheddin in this country." The joke elicits >>> sniggers and laughter from the group. >>> >>> Outside Sydney's largest mosque, the Lakemba Mosque in Wangee Road, >>> which is known for its moderate preachings, a man in his late 20s >>> is walking to his car following the Friday prayer. He opens his car >>> boot and grabs a handful of promotional leaflets about Ramadan. >>> Asked about his thoughts on extremist Muslims ruining the image of >>> Islam, he says: "You got all kinds of Muslim here [in Sydney]. But >>> it's always the few extreme ones who ruin it for the majority, >>> brother." >>> >>> privacy terms ? The Australian >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From scerir at libero.it Mon Nov 7 20:54:59 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:54:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com><009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer><436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> <20051107064628.GA13915@ofb.net> Message-ID: <006401c5e3dd$845f41c0$ebc61b97@administxl09yj> From: "Damien Sullivan" > The young ones burning cars were > probably *born* in France. Worse. A good % of them are French citizens. Evidently their culture, their unemployment, the social 'divide' between them and the rest of French citizens, are the causes. But I would say that the problem is bigger. And worldwide. The power of single nations, and single governments, is very limited now, due to the increasing dynamical complexity of everything. http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1385 Following this link you can realize what happened in Caracas one year ago :-) There are no Arabs or Moslems there. What do they hate then? The poor Cr..... From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 7 21:06:27 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:06:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051107092621.06ecccd0@unreasonable.com> References: <200511061900.jA6J0Ge30683@tick.javien.com> <009f01c5e33a$dc0f5d90$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <436EB25B.3020808@goldenfuture.net> <002001c5e34b$c37c9020$0801a8c0@EF02jack> <6.2.3.4.2.20051107004813.07b30150@unreasonable.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20051107000551.01cb6a00@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051107092621.06ecccd0@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2005, at 9:41 AM, David Lubkin wrote: > Damien Broderick wrote: > > >> Yeah, and all those immigrant un[der]employed Muslims should just >> knuckle down and save up their spare francs and stop their whining >> and build a starship like the rest of us do. >> >> Or not. >> > > My point was that there were (1) new places to go to, (2) where > people who find their current circumstances intolerable could go, > not whether (3) these particular people can afford to go. At this point no one on Earth can go to these destinations at any price. If I missed something major then please acquaint me with the folks building the colony ship or even the next asteroid homesteaders or folks heading out to L5. I would be very interested. > > Dyson believe(d | s) that it is essential to have a frontier as a > social safety valve and that we had to get launch costs down to a > comparable price before colonizing the asteroids was plausible. > I agree of course. But we don't have access to space now and won't at the rate we are going for (very optimistically) over a decade. It will take much longer to have so much easy access to space and somewhere to go to take the "poor and huddled masses" off Earth's hands, if ever. So this smells like a sci-fi pipe dream. - samantha From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 21:23:58 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:23:58 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <002201c5e3b1$1d660930$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511070744.jA77iIe00933@tick.javien.com> <002201c5e3b1$1d660930$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/7/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > > Dirk wrote: > >one of the fundamental features of real integration is intermarriage. > >For example, our Black population is intermarrying at an estimated 25-40% > >per generation. > >Why isn't this happening with Moslems? > > I agree about intermarriage - this is an absolute hallmark of true > integration. However it takes a generation or two to achieve. While the > parents have the hang ups and cultural prejudices - the kids just do what > comes naturally. If anything there has been a bigger Moslem population in Britain than a Black one. It has nothing to do with length of time in this case. Interesting examples - Afghan (Moslem) camel trains opened up the interior > of Australia a century or more ago - and Moslems were the founding fathers > and respected elder citizens of pioneer towns like Alice Springs. The > Liddle family which owns vast tracts of Central Australia today (truly > Texas-sized vast) is directly descended from these pioneers and is Afghan, > Scots and Aboriginal (in about equal proportions). That's partly because they had no choice but to intermarry - or not marry at all. There wasn't a large enough immigrant Moslem pool to 'keep to themselves', nor could they import more Moslems in the space of a few hours journey through arranged overseas marriages. The trouble is - remarks like: > > >It wasn't Blacks who blew up the trains in London. > > Fall quite clearly into the 'hate' category as far as I can see... This > kind > of generalized remark about an entire group simply makes the ignorant > assumption of homogeneity where heterogeneity demonstrably exists. So, who blew up the trains? Was it little old white ladies? However, I think I can stand behind the statement that 'not a single Black citizen bombed the trains in London'. Any statement that begins: 'All Moslems/blacks/Irish/Poles... (insert > favorite despised minority here) is just a confession of personal > prejudice, > bigotry and ignorance... Well, death to your straw man - because I didn't say 'all'. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at nanoaging.com Mon Nov 7 22:23:45 2005 From: info at nanoaging.com (The NanoAging Institute) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:23:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Nanoaging Institute fraud References: <7641ddc60511070623n5aca8c63n18381338248c1342@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60511070624k6d70553j5f59c5fc2ebd2264@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <016b01c5e3e9$ebdecee0$cb337a18@nomxx5ybrzvkgn> I got the permission from him, here is his email from him yes, sure Rafal On 10/6/05, dadadodo6 wrote: > Hi, > > Would you want to become the advisor for NanoAging? Only your > permission is required. > > --Jon > > > > -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Chief Clinical Officer, Gencia Corporation 706 B Forest St. Charlottesville, VA 22903 tel: (434) 295-4800 fax: (434) 295-4951 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: Fwd: Nanoaging Institute fraud ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rafal Smigrodzki Date: Nov 7, 2005 8:23 AM Subject: Nanoaging Institute fraud To: extropians at yahoogroups.com, ExI chat list , Gerontology Research Group , Mitochondria Interest Group , sl4 at sl4.org To all whom it may concern: I would like to state that my name is listed on the Nanoaging Institute's list of advisers without my permission. I have no connection to this institution. Rafal -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Chief Clinical Officer, Gencia Corporation 706 B Forest St. Charlottesville, VA 22903 tel: (434) 295-4800 fax: (434) 295-4951 This electronic message transmission contains information from the biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately. -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Chief Clinical Officer, Gencia Corporation 706 B Forest St. Charlottesville, VA 22903 tel: (434) 295-4800 fax: (434) 295-4951 This electronic message transmission contains information from the biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately. From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Tue Nov 8 01:48:14 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:48:14 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france References: <200511071900.jA7J0Ae04981@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <001101c5e406$7f107990$0201a8c0@JPAcer> David Lubkin wrote: >The Mayflower expedition -- which is, after all, what Jack referred >to -- cost 7.5 man-years of wages per family. The colonists borrowed >the funds from investors who stayed home. It took them 22 years to >pay off this debt. This kind of investment is comparable to that being made by Asian boat people seeking a better life in Europe, Australia and the US. In China's Fujian Province for instance (one of the better known sources for such immigrants), a professional with a good degree might generally earn well under US $200 per month, but an illicit voyage to the west will cost at least US $10,000 and sometimes a LOT more. The voyage is likely to be very dangerous, the chances of being caught and returned are high - and the debt must be repayed for years. Traffickers in these human cargoes routinely murder, rob and rape their passengers, some boats are simply scuttled - and every year many emigres simply vanish. The sheer grit and determination of these people matches anything the Mayflower crew did... Jack Parkinson From anissimov at singinst.org Tue Nov 8 02:13:18 2005 From: anissimov at singinst.org (Michael Anissimov) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:13:18 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] SL4 CHAT: Wednesday, 9 November, 6PM PST, 9PM EST Message-ID: <437009BE.7070808@singinst.org> The SL4 IRC chat has returned! This time, we're going to hold chats every quarter as opposed to every month. There will be a chat this upcoming Wednesday, followed by one in January, and an additional chat every quarter thereafter. What is "SL4"? The highest level on Eliezer Yudkowsky's Future Shock Level scale: http://yudkowsky.net/sing/shocklevels.html Feel free to attend the chat regardless of what future shock level you consider yourself to be, but note that the topics of conversation will be kept at an SL4 level. Also, consider signing up for the SL4 mailing list if you aren't already signed up: http://www.sl4.org/intro.html The four virtues of SL4 are Intelligence, Fun, Importance, and Future Shock. The chat topic will be an SL4 classic, seed AI. Recommended reading is here: http://www.singinst.org/LOGI/seedAI.html Chat participants should have read the above material completely, though not necessarily agree with it. (Though anyone can listen in.) The chat will be held at 6PM PST, 9PM EST, Wednesday the 9th. To participate through a standard IRC client, connect to "sl4.org" on a standard IRC port (for example, 6667) and join channel #sl4. (Type /join #sl4) To participate through Java applet, point your browser at: http://sl4.org/chat/ To clear up any confusion about timezones, go to http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Pacific/d/-8/java to see the current time in Santa Clara, CA. Please join us! Best, -- Michael Anissimov http://singinst.org/ Advocacy Director, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 8 03:12:46 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:12:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in france In-Reply-To: <001101c5e406$7f107990$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511071900.jA7J0Ae04981@tick.javien.com> <001101c5e406$7f107990$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051107220221.06bfa708@unreasonable.com> Jack Parkinson wrote: >This kind of investment is comparable to that being made by Asian >boat people seeking a better life in Europe, Australia and the US. : >The sheer grit and determination of these people matches anything >the Mayflower crew did... Exactly. Which is why once the way is open to colonize space at a comparable cost, many will go. Not for the space-specific dream that many (most? all?) of us extropians have, but for the panoply of historical reasons -- curiosity, adventure, material wealth, escape, freedom, or elbow room. -- David. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 03:25:16 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:25:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] political ads on the phone In-Reply-To: <002201c5e3b1$1d660930$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <200511080325.jA83PCe28478@tick.javien.com> There is a law in taxifornia that if the politicos must tell who paid for any political advertisement. The law doesn't actually specify at what speed the "who-paid- for-this" bit must be revealed. Since we have an election tomorrow, I have been finding ads on my answering machine every day. This evening I played back an ad from a sincere-sounding surgeon explaining why a particular proposition will help her poor patients pay for their meds. Then it got to "paid for by zippity yikkity yikkity yikkity..." like an LP on 78 (ask your parents). I listened to it about four times. It was so hilarious I will probably vote for it just because they gave me a good laugh. spike From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 8 03:54:31 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:54:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jonathan Despres is a serious probelm wasRe: [extropy-chat] Please Join NanoAging... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051107101637.03453d30@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051108035431.69914.qmail@web60016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > I pass along, with no comment, these posts from two > of the experts listed at that site. Mr. Despres? > I, however, will provide a comment. This is not easy for me. Sending up a red flag with a person's name one it. Yet it appears to be necessary. Jonathan Despres is the single most dangerous individual to have invited himself into the cryonics/transhumanist community, in the 8-9 years I have been around. Dangerous most particularly to the cryonics enterprise. http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=27334 The problem posed by Despres would be easier to deal with if it was simply a case of a malicious personality. However, that's not the situation. Rather it appears that Despres suffers from some sort of mental problem. From the link below, in is own words: "Because of my disease called Social Anxiety or Social Phobia, I would need a telephonist. I hate to call people over the phone." http://groups.google.com/group/sci.cryonics/browse_thread/thread/fcd0dc764bb213e5/73e43e6c1fa37bb1#73e43e6c1fa37bb1 I suspect that his aberrant, destructive behavior will only come to an end as a consequence of legal action. Meanwhile, in an effort to minimize the damage he is inevitably -- delusionally -- going to cause, I recommend everyone be aware of the problem, and take the time to inform anyone not already up to speed. Jonathan Despres is trouble. He has set up a superficially impressive, yet vaporware website, and is set on a course to screw over anyone who, unaware of the mental aberration behind it, buys into the seeming-legitimacy of his web activity. This is no drill. Jeff Davis __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From jonano at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 05:51:19 2005 From: jonano at gmail.com (Jonathan Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 00:51:19 -0500 Subject: Jonathan Despres is a serious probelm wasRe: [extropy-chat] Please Join NanoAging... Message-ID: <6030482a0511072151i60d6f3bew76b2247d5e009bab@mail.gmail.com> "I suspect that his aberrant, destructive behavior will only come to an end as a consequence of legal action." Where do you see that I am destructive with my project? Only the wikipedia thing? I know it`s an error, I just wanted to make my cause more popular, which is a good cause, the best one I think on earth. Beside wikipedia, I dont see where I am destructive with my projects and my web site. --Jon From jonano at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 06:14:39 2005 From: jonano at gmail.com (Jonathan Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 01:14:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The statistics of NanoAging are good (its very popular) Message-ID: <6030482a0511072214j786e1eb5s33c2ff83534cd4b7@mail.gmail.com> the statistics of NanoAging are growing and NanoAging is already very popular, just look to my stats page here: http://www.nanoaging.com/modules.php?name=AWStats My users enjoy my work, Im constructive --Jon From max at maxmore.com Tue Nov 8 15:44:49 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:44:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051108093417.04db8cd8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> As many of you know, I've been working on the Proactionary Principle (ProP for short) as a replacement for the widely-used precautionary principle. The ProP is now the center of the book I'm halfway through writing. I would very much appreciate your feedback on the current version, so that I can make any final tweaks before committing it to publication more widely. The previous version (with seven sub-principles) is here: http://www.extropy.org/proactionaryprinciple.htm The current version is as follows: THE PROACTIONARY PRINCIPLE Freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even critical, to humanity. This implies a range of responsibilities for those considering whether and how to develop, deploy, or restrict new technologies. Assess risks and opportunities using an objective, open, and comprehensive, yet simple decision process based on science rather than collective emotional reactions. Account for the costs of restrictions and lost opportunities as fully as direct effects. Favor measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of impacts, and that have the highest payoff relative to their costs. Give a high priority to people's freedom to learn, innovate, and advance. We can call this "the" Proactionary Principle so long as we realize that the underlying Principle is less like a sound bite than a set of nested Chinese boxes or Russian matroshka (babushka) dolls. If we pry open the lid of this introductory-level version of the Principle, we will discover ten component principles lying within: 1. Guard the Freedom to Innovate: Our freedom to innovate technologically is valuable to humanity. The burden of proof therefore belongs to those who propose restrictive measures. All proposed measures should be closely scrutinized. 2. Use Objective Methods: Use a decision process that is objective, structured, and explicit. Evaluate risks and generate forecasts according to available science, not emotionally shaped perceptions; use explicit forecasting processes; fully disclose the forecasting procedure; ensure that the information and decision procedures are objective; rigorously structure the inputs to the forecasting procedure; reduce biases by selecting disinterested experts, by using the devil's advocate procedure with judgmental methods, and by using auditing procedures such as review panels. 3. Be Comprehensive: Consider all reasonable alternative actions, including no action. Estimate the opportunities lost by abandoning a technology, and take into account the costs and risks of substituting other credible options. When making these estimates, use systems thinking to carefully consider not only concentrated and immediate effects, but also widely distributed and follow-on effects, as well as the interaction of the factor under consideration with other factors. 4. Be Open: Take into account the interests of all potentially affected parties, and keep the process open to input from those parties. 5. Simplify: Use methods that are no more complex than necessary 6. Prioritize and Triage: When choosing among measures to ameliorate unwanted side effects, prioritize decision criteria as follows: (a) Give priority to risks to human and other intelligent life over risks to other species; (b) give non-lethal threats to human health priority over threats limited to the environment (within reasonable limits); (c) give priority to immediate threats over distant threats; (d) give priority to ameliorating known and proven threats to human health and environmental quality over hypothetical risks; (e) prefer the measure with the highest expectation value by giving priority to more certain over less certain threats, and to irreversible or persistent impacts over transient impacts. 7. Apply Measures Proportionally: Consider restrictive measures only if the potential impact of an activity has both significant probability and severity. In such cases, if the activity also generates benefits, discount the impacts according to the feasibility of adapting to the adverse effects. If measures to limit technological advance do appear justified, ensure that the extent of those measures is proportionate to the extent of the probable effects. 8. Respect Tradeoffs: Recognize and respect the diversity of values among people, as well as the different weights they place on shared values. Whenever feasible, enable people to make tradeoffs. 9. Treat Symmetrically: Treat technological risks on the same basis as natural risks; avoid underweighting natural risks and overweighting human-technological risks. Fully account for the benefits of technological advances. 10. Renew (Revisit) and Refresh: Create a trigger to prompt decision makers to revisit the decision, far enough in the future that conditions may have changed significantly. --------------------------------- Thank you, Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From amara at amara.com Tue Nov 8 16:59:24 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:59:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Venus Express Launch 9November Message-ID: Hi folks, The first try of the Venus Express launch from the Baikonur Cosmodrome will occur at ~4am Europe (CET) time (8am Kazachsstan time). ================================================================ http://television.esa.int/default.cfm# Wed, Nov 09, 2005 | 03:10 - 08:30 GMT | 04:10 - 09:30 CET Venus Express Launch Live Coverage ESA TV Live The ESA TV Service will provide a clean feed of the launch of Venus Express, produced at Mission Control at ESOC in Darmstadt, Germany, with live images from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazachstan. The lift-off is scheduled for 03:33 GMT. A detailed running order for the clean feed is online under http://television.esa.int/photos/VenusExpress_09112005.pdf Not earlier than 100 minutes after lift-off, the separation of Venus Express from the Fregat upper launcher stage, will be confirmed from Baikonur, through live statements by Starsem DG Jean-Yves Le Gall and ESA Science Director David Southwood. Two press briefings at ESA-ESOC, scheduled for 06:00 and 08:00 GMT, will be televised live. They will feature ESA DG Jean-Jacques Dordain, Starsem Director Francois Maroquene and Venus Express Flight Director Manfred Warhaut. At the end of each press briefing, a B-roll with highlight images will be transmitted. More backgroud information can be found on: www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Venus_Express/ Eutelsat W2 at 16 degrees east Transponder B6, channel F (vertical), SCPC/4:2:0 F=11.172 MHz, SR=5.632 MS/sec, FEC=3/4 For the general public, a simulcast on Astra 1G is available, see http://television.esa.int/photos/Astra.pdf ================================================================ Amara (The institute I work in has two instruments (PFS, Virtis) on this spacecraft) From hibbert at mydruthers.com Tue Nov 8 17:16:38 2005 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:16:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051108093417.04db8cd8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051108093417.04db8cd8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <4370DD76.2010407@mydruthers.com> > Freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even > critical, to humanity. This implies a range of responsibilities for > those considering whether and how to develop, deploy, or restrict new > technologies. Assess risks and opportunities using an objective, > open, and comprehensive, yet simple decision process based on science > rather than collective emotional reactions. Account for the costs of > restrictions and lost opportunities as fully as direct effects. Favor > measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of > impacts, and that have the highest payoff relative to their costs. > Give a high priority to people's freedom to learn, innovate, and > advance. Your opening paragraph starts out in a descriptive style, but unexpectedly switches to imperative with the third sentence. I think the descriptive form was better suited as an introduction to the numbered list that follows. Let me try a rewrite to show you what I mean: Freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even critical, to humanity. This implies a range of responsibilities for those considering whether and how to develop, deploy, or restrict new technologies. In order to ensure that we don't react precipitously to emotional prompts, we should assess risks and opportunities using an open comprehensive decision process based on science, the most objective evaluation tool humanity has developed. All major innovations have both direct and indirect consequences, though the indirect effects can be hard to predict. In order to choose the most beneficial course, decision makers should account for the costs of restrictions and lost opportunities as fully as direct effects. Since indirect consequences are hard to predict reliably, we owe it to ourselves to favor measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of impacts, and that have the highest payoff relative to their costs. In order to provide the best opportunity to learn and improve from both our successes and failures priority should be given to people's freedom to learn, innovate, and advance. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com Blog: http://pancrit.org From hal at finney.org Tue Nov 8 19:05:28 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version Message-ID: <20051108190528.F31BC57F30@finney.org> Chris Hibbert writes, responding to Max's document: > > Freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even > > critical, to humanity. This implies a range of responsibilities for > > those considering whether and how to develop, deploy, or restrict new > > technologies. Assess risks and opportunities using an objective, > > open, and comprehensive, yet simple decision process based on science > > rather than collective emotional reactions. Account for the costs of > > restrictions and lost opportunities as fully as direct effects. Favor > > measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of > > impacts, and that have the highest payoff relative to their costs. > > Give a high priority to people's freedom to learn, innovate, and > > advance. > > Your opening paragraph starts out in a descriptive style, but > unexpectedly switches to imperative with the third sentence. I think > the descriptive form was better suited as an introduction to the > numbered list that follows. Let me try a rewrite to show you what I mean: I noticed this as well, the transition is a bit awkward. However I prefer Max's punchy, imperative style. It is concise and to the point. A minimal change that would help would be to change the second period to a colon. This will ease the transition to the list of points. Alternatively it might be worthwhile to have a paragraph break after the second sentence (perhaps adding another sentence to the first paragraph to fill it out more). The sentences in the second paragraph could even be turned into a bullet list, like this: > Freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even > critical, to humanity. This implies a range of responsibilities for > those considering whether and how to develop, deploy, or restrict new > technologies: > > - Assess risks and opportunities using an objective, open, and > comprehensive, yet simple decision process based on science rather > than collective emotional reactions. > - Account for the costs of restrictions and lost opportunities as fully > as direct effects. > - Favor measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude > of impacts, and that have the highest payoff relative to their costs. > - Give a high priority to people's freedom to learn, innovate, and > advance. I agree with Chris that it is a little awkward to have a list of four imperative points here, as an introduction to a list of ten points (confusion exacerbated by the earlier claim that there will be seven points!). Still I thought his descriptive style was a little wordy. Maybe the whole thing needs to be rethought a bit in terms of the number of points being made in each section. Hal Finney From max at maxmore.com Tue Nov 8 19:14:43 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:14:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version In-Reply-To: <20051108190528.F31BC57F30@finney.org> References: <20051108190528.F31BC57F30@finney.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051108131307.052d83a0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 01:05 PM 11/8/2005, Hal wrote: >I agree with Chris that it is a little awkward to have a list of four >imperative points here, as an introduction to a list of ten points >(confusion exacerbated by the earlier claim that there will be seven >points!). Hal -- the seven referred to the number of points in the earlier version, for which I gave the URL. The version I posted does say "ten". I'll hold back my other responses for now. Please keep those productive comments coming. Onward! Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org ________________________________________________________________ Director of Content Solutions, ManyWorlds Inc.: http://www.manyworlds.com --- Thought leadership in the innovation economy m.more at manyworlds.com _______________________________________________________ From hal at finney.org Tue Nov 8 19:38:37 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:38:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version Message-ID: <20051108193837.4970157F2F@finney.org> This is kind of off-topic and I don't mean for it to derail the progress towards completion of this statement. Certainly the principles advocated here will be a much better foundation for future progress than anything like the precautionary principle. Nevertheless I couldn't help recalling our discussion last month initiated by Robin Hanson, on the utility of scenario-based forecasting. (Thread title was "Inside Vs. Outside Forecasts".) Some of the advice in the proposed document amounts to creating inside-type forecasts, i.e. setting up scenarios, looking at probable outcomes, and making decisions on that basis. The paper we discussed last month shows that this forecasting methodology is not very good, unfortunately. It is prone to cognitive biases of many kinds. Unfortunately it is not clear whether there is a better alternative for predicting the future. As the discussion between Eliezer and Robin elucidated, there are certain reasons to expect the future to be like the past, and other reasons to expect it to be entirely novel and unpredictable. When we try to predict the effects of significant technological innovation, should we look to the past history of "similarly disruptive" technologies? Or is each new situation too novel for the past to be a useful guide? I didn't see a consensus appear. We didn't talk about it much, but actually the article we were discussing was mostly on another topic that is also relevant here, the management of risk in the corporate environment. At a certain level, business is all about taking risks. Successful risk management makes or breaks a business. Nevertheless the article identified a number of errors in how business executives evaluate and manage risks. In particular, most executives saw a major failure as being a career-ending proposition, while an equally spectacular success would have a more modest benefit. This causes them to be risk-averse, to the detriment of the overall enterprise. Another factor appears when decisions are delegated to subordinates. From the superior's position, failures by some of his employees can be compensated by successes by others. He would therefore like to see a greater level of risk-taking. But from the subordinate position, failure has an overwhelming personal impact, hence he will not take risks which are rational for the company as a whole. (Ironically, one of the points of the article was that these risk management errors, which cause businesses to be excessively risk-averse, may be cancelled by inside-style scenario forecasting, which tends to underestimate risk. This leads to an overall risk environment that may be roughly risk-neutral, which is the economically optimal position!) With regard to the Proactionary Principle, we are mostly looking not at corporate risk-taking, but at government and regulatory risk issues. This article did not go into that specifically, but there has been much work in this area as well. If anything, the risk environment is even worse in the regulatory field. A businessman who takes a successful risk balances a significant reward against the possibility of failure, but a regulator gets little or no reward and faces only the penalties from failure. The problem, then, is that even if Proactionary principles achieve success at the policy level, the mechanisms we have for risk analysis at the regulatory level may still undercut these policy goals by overestimating risks. Risk-averse regulation could result from even an ostensibly risk-neutral policy. On the other hand, if we could create mechanisms for a risk-neutral regulatory environment, my feeling is that this would go a long way towards achieving the goals of the Proactionary principle, even without explicit policy change. Risk-neutral regulation would by definition take into consideration the pros and cons of any given technology or other innovation. That is what most of the advice in the Proactionary Principle amounts to. Imagine, as a toy example, if regulators were allowed to profit from benefits created by new technologies they allow, while equally being penalized by harm those technologies might create. This would not be totally risk-neutral but it would be closer than what we have today. In such an environment I think we would immediately see innovative technologies being treated more favorably. In fact, I imagine that this is why any such proposal would be opposed at higher levels, because policy-makers understand that this would undercut their control over the regulatory environment. Overall, then, I agree that the Proactionary Principle is good policy. However, without addressing the details of how society evaluates and manages the risks of new technologies, any such policy faces obstacles to effective implementation. I would like to see support for such classic Extropian ideas as Idea Futures, Delphi forecasting, science courts, and other innovative mechanisms for more accurate forecast methodologies. This should be part of a general research effort towards evaluating how well different forecast mechanisms work, including traditional scenario based forecasts. I also think it will be necessary to look in some detail at how policy recommendations are implemented at the regulatory level. The regulatory risk-reward balance needs to be substantially redesigned as part of any change towards a more risk-neutral policy stance. Hal Finney From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 19:52:28 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:52:28 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051108131307.052d83a0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <20051108190528.F31BC57F30@finney.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051108131307.052d83a0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Max More wrote: > > At 01:05 PM 11/8/2005, Hal wrote: > > >I agree with Chris that it is a little awkward to have a list of four > >imperative points here, as an introduction to a list of ten points > >(confusion exacerbated by the earlier claim that there will be seven > >points!). > > Hal -- the seven referred to the number of points in the earlier > version, for which I gave the URL. The version I posted does say "ten". > > I'll hold back my other responses for now. Please keep those > productive comments coming. > > Onward! Only one suggestion. That is, when this is finalised you do a highly condensed version which is essntially nothing but bullet points and soundbites. Something that can be appreciated at a glance (or at least in less than twenty seconds for someone of our reading speed). Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Tue Nov 8 21:24:46 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:24:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version In-Reply-To: <20051108193837.4970157F2F@finney.org> References: <20051108193837.4970157F2F@finney.org> Message-ID: <4371179E.9060504@pobox.com> Hal Finney wrote: > > Nevertheless I couldn't help recalling our discussion last month > initiated by Robin Hanson, on the utility of scenario-based forecasting. > (Thread title was "Inside Vs. Outside Forecasts".) Some of the advice > in the proposed document amounts to creating inside-type forecasts, > i.e. setting up scenarios, looking at probable outcomes, and making > decisions on that basis. The paper we discussed last month shows that > this forecasting methodology is not very good, unfortunately. It is > prone to cognitive biases of many kinds. Correct. I name also an additional cognitive bias: defensibility. Cost-benefit analyses aim at warding off anxiety about catastrophe, or blame in the event of catastrophe. Warding off actual catastrophe is a great deal harder. You do not realize this until you have written a careful, elaborate analysis of risks and benefits (such as appears in http://singinst.org/CFAI/policy.html) and then it turns out that Nature would have gone ahead and killed you anyway, even though you'd conducted a cost-benefit analysis. How unreasonable of Nature! What more does She want from us? At that point I first realized the incredible difficulty gap between fulfilling a deontological obligation to perform a risk analysis, and actually avoiding risk. You can always perform a risk analysis - it requires merely that you quantify your ignorance. There's no guarantee that survival is even possible - this requires nonignorance, and nonignorance can be arbitrarily difficult to obtain. It is in the nature of deontological social obligations that they tend to be fulfillable, which tells you something about their distance from the real world. George Orwell wrote: "In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness." Humanity can survive the loss of a thousand people, or a million people; it survives fifty-five million deaths every year. It is therefore appropriate to trade off the risk of fatal side effects against probable benefits of life-saving pharmaceuticals, to minimize net casualties. This is the argument which is too brutal for most people to face: it requires accepting that every now and then, even after performing a cost-benefit analysis, the Proactionary Principle will kill a few thousand people - loudly, visibly, in full public view. The Precautionary Principle kills many more people, but silently. If human beings did not age, but still suffered accidents, we would in no sense be immortal; we would live only until one of life's many dangers cut us down. The human species is like an unaging individual human; it has survived this far only because there has not been *any* significant, recurring danger of extinction. Once we enter the realm where existential risk becomes *possible*, it imposes a death sentence on humankind, unless the window of vulnerability is bounded, and small. No existential risk can ever be realized, even once. It is as if you did not age, but you were still vulnerable to all ordinary accidents, and you absolutely had to survive at all costs. The Proactionary Principle does not inculcate a mindset appropriate to such a task. It is the creed of someone who can never really be hurt, as humankind can never really be hurt by a pharmaceutical mistakenly approved. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From max at maxmore.com Wed Nov 9 00:08:59 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:08:59 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version In-Reply-To: <20051108193837.4970157F2F@finney.org> References: <20051108193837.4970157F2F@finney.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051108173743.05252c58@pop-server.austin.rr.com> I don't think your points are at all off-topic, Hal. (So long as this discussion doesn't displace constructive critiques of the Principle itself.) At 01:38 PM 11/8/2005, Hal wrote: >With regard to the Proactionary Principle, we are mostly looking not >at corporate risk-taking, but at government and regulatory risk issues. I do intend the ProP to apply in both private and governmental contexts, although the full-blown application of the Principle is indeed best suited to government and regulatory risk decisions. >This article did not go into that specifically, but there has been much >work in this area as well. If anything, the risk environment is even >worse in the regulatory field. A businessman who takes a successful >risk balances a significant reward against the possibility of failure, >but a regulator gets little or no reward and faces only the penalties >from failure. Yes--the classic problem of Type I and Type II errors. (I discuss that in my chapter, "The Perils of Precaution".) >On the other hand, if we could create mechanisms for a risk-neutral >regulatory environment, my feeling is that this would go a long way >towards achieving the goals of the Proactionary principle, even without >explicit policy change. The widespread affirmation of the Proactionary Principle (or something very similar) should make it much easier to get such mechanisms seriously considered and implemented. In addition, the ProP could serve as a touchstone by which to evaluate mechanisms proposed for that purpose. Especially relevant in this context is the second sub-principle: 2. Use Objective Methods: Use a decision process that is objective, structured, and explicit. Evaluate risks and generate forecasts according to available science, not emotionally shaped perceptions; use explicit forecasting processes; fully disclose the forecasting procedure; ensure that the information and decision procedures are objective; rigorously structure the inputs to the forecasting procedure; reduce biases by selecting disinterested experts, by using the devil's advocate procedure with judgmental methods, and by using auditing procedures such as review panels. However, now I look at this again, it seems to me that the text does not adequately express one of my major priorities: to specify the use of the most reliable, well-validated forecasting methods. This IS covered by "generate forecasts according to available science", but needs stating more clearly, I think. (The advisability of using such methods is the focus of my chapter on "The Wisdom of Structure", which immediately precedes the Proactionary Principle chapter. To sum up on this particular point: It makes sense to me to push for adoption of the Proactionary Principle *at the same time as* working to implement risk-neutral mechanisms. They should reinforce and complement one another. >Imagine, as a toy example, if regulators were allowed to profit from >benefits created by new technologies they allow, while equally being >penalized by harm those technologies might create. I like the idea. But how, specifically, would you implement this in a politically feasible way? Wouldn't it also raise potential problems, such as turning the regulators' job into a highly profitable one, thereby spurring nepotism involving those who appoint the regulators? (This isn't meant as a dismissal of your suggestion, which I think should be further explored.) >Overall, then, I agree that the Proactionary Principle is good policy. >However, without addressing the details of how society evaluates and >manages the risks of new technologies, any such policy faces obstacles to >effective implementation. You have my complete agreement! Strong public pressure for adoption of the ProP could have a highly beneficial effect on the regulatory environment, but its impact would be severely limited if not accompanied by structural and incentive mechanisms to shape behavior in accordance the Principle. It's probably easier to do this in business -- and there's an enormous literature on change management for this purpose [see ] -- although it's never *easy*. A good place to start would be with the economics of politics literature, and perhaps scanning the output of organizations such as the Cato Institute. (Suggestions welcome.) I know that the UK's Institute for Economic Affairs has published a fair bit of material on this, but probably more on the critical side rather than on how to reform regulators. > I would like to see support for such classic >Extropian ideas as Idea Futures, Delphi forecasting, science courts, >and other innovative mechanisms for more accurate forecast methodologies. >This should be part of a general research effort towards evaluating how >well different forecast mechanisms work, including traditional scenario >based forecasts. I see all this as part of the effort that naturally accompanies the Proactionary Principle. One of the next chapters I have to tackle is precisely on the relative reliability of various forecasting methods and how to choose between them. (That will be a tough one.) >I also think it will be necessary to look in some detail >at how policy recommendations are implemented at the regulatory level. >The regulatory risk-reward balance needs to be substantially redesigned >as part of any change towards a more risk-neutral policy stance. As above, I couldn't agree more. Onward! Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org ________________________________________________________________ Director of Content Solutions, ManyWorlds Inc.: http://www.manyworlds.com --- Thought leadership in the innovation economy m.more at manyworlds.com _______________________________________________________ From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 9 01:05:28 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:05:28 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Latest issues of World Law Bulletin Message-ID: <43714B58.6080809@mindspring.com> LATEST ISSUES OF WORLD LAW BULLETIN The three most recent issues of World Law Bulletin, produced by the Law Library of Congress but not publicly disseminated, have been obtained by Secrecy News. Topics addressed include "Israel's Construction of a Barrier in the West Bank and the Impact of the International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion" (October 2005), "Women's Rights Under Shari'ah (Islamic Law)" (August 2005), "Recent Developments in the European Union," and much more. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/wlb/index.html -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia/Secret War in Laos veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 05:57:57 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 21:57:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation (iaging) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051005175827.0381e658@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051109055757.12964.qmail@web60023.mail.yahoo.com> Extropes, Another report that suggests that a significant contributor to the degeneration asscociated with aging is the direct result of the "aging" of bone marrow repair/replacement cells. Which brings me once again to the question: if I extract some of my bone marrow, sort the various progenitor cells, repair, rejuvenate, or immortalize them, culture them to increase their number, and reinject them into my bone marrow, can I rejuvenate or "super-rejuvenate" my bone marrow progenitor cell repair/mainteneance capability and thereby achieve a substantial extension of my health and/or lifespan? http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-11/dumc-ivr110205.php The progression of the artery-clogging disease atherosclerosis is linked to the inability of specialized bone marrow cells to continuously repair damage to the arterial lining. ... "It appears that the disease progresses as the body's intrinsic ability to repair and rejuvenate itself somehow becomes deficient," __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Wed Nov 9 09:22:10 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:22:10 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 26, Issue 10 References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Dirk wrote: >So, who blew up the trains? >Was it little old white ladies? >However, I think I can stand behind the statement that 'not a single Black >citizen bombed the trains in London'. >>Any statement that begins: 'All Moslems/blacks/Irish/Poles... (insert >> favorite despised minority here) is just a confession of personal >> prejudice, bigotry and ignorance... >Well, death to your straw man - because I didn't say 'all'. Dirk No, you didn't - but if you meant your comments to be restricted to the actual perpetrators rather than the groups they (putatively) represent - then you phrased your critique pretty badly. AND - you are still phrasing it badly in the comments above that seeks to generalise attributes across massive social groups. If two 'little old white ladies' go on a shop-lifting spree, or cause a traffic pile-up because of their lack of driving ability - according to the way I read your comments we can then assume that all 'little old white ladies' are thieves and should have their driving licences revoked. To answer your question about the trains: They were blown up by criminals. Religious zealots. You are attempting to smear a broad cross section of the world community - hundreds of millions of people - by implicating them in this act by religious association. But when a Protestant commits an horrendous crime - do you automatically blame all of them? When you accuse me of creating a straw man, you comfortably ignore the fact that you are selectively using news items to reinforce your own innate prejudices on the topics of race and religion. Jack Parkinson From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 11:24:00 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil H.) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 03:24:00 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 26, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/9/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > > But when a Protestant commits an horrendous crime - do you automatically > blame all of them? To what extent can Medieval Christianity be blamed for the Crusades? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Wed Nov 9 14:23:29 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:23:29 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <000a01c5e539$37c633c0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> The story below is for anyone who believes that the French riots are something peculiar to that country. The prediction here for the US and western nations in general is dire. Could be that a similar situation to that in France is not so far away from your local neighborhood... And it won't be 'the Muslims' - because it wasn't 'the Muslims' in France. It WILL be their local equivalent... Whatever underpaid, under-resourced, ghettoised minority is currently do the drudge work in your area for less than a living wage - while living in a hovel. Rather than despising these people and branding them as criminals and crazies when, inevitably, they make their stand - we should tackle these social problems now. Contented citizens with full bellies NEVER man the barricades... Jack Parkinson French Fires By Stephen Pizzo, News for Real Posted on November 9, 2005, http://www.alternet.org/story/27998/ How do you explain the rioting that is happening in France? Two words: cheap labor. France, like most other mature Western economies, has embraced cheap labor from underdeveloped countries. That flood of cheap labor has, at least until now, served both corporations and consumers. Corporate earnings are up across the board, for example. But, you point out, wages are down across the board too. How does that serve consumers -- most of whom are working-class folk? The answer comes as a single, hyphenated word -- Wal-Mart. Cheap labor produces cheap goods. How many times have you bought something at a Big Box store and said to yourself, I don't know how they can make and sell this item so cheaply? Down deep, of course, you really don't care. You're just happy you got the gizmo for so little. And it's not just cheap labor abroad that we're addicted to. In both Europe and the U.S., legal and illegal immigration has turned ordinary Americans into cheap labor employers as well. Even a working-class stiff can afford a gardener, a housekeeper and a nanny these days. You can quite literally pick them up right off the street corner. Want an addition built on to your home? It's almost certain that the only reason you can afford one is because the contractor no longer hires union carpenters. Instead, he picks up a few Mexican carpenters down on a corner, or a hiring hall. They are skilled and hardworking, and they put in a full day for a fraction of what a union carpenter would charge. You're happy. The contractor's happy.But some former union carpenter now works at the local Oil Stop, earning half of what he once made. Then again, that one-time union carpenter is still able to make ends meet, thanks to cheap imported goods -- at least for now. So far, so good for everyone -- at least it would appear. But there is an inevitable price for all this, and the French are paying it now. There really is no free lunch, even in France. Two dynamics are now in play, even if most Western governments still refuse to acknowledge them. First, Western economies have been busy for the past 10 years or so stewing the golden geese that made them economic powerhouses in the first place --- their working middle-classes. Workers' real wages have plummeted as their homegrown industries turned to cheaper foreign labor. In the short run, those cheap goods coming back into their countries blunted the effect of lower domestic wages. But that can't go on forever. Sooner or later, Western consumers will run out of both disposable income and available credit. When that happens, the middle-class consumer -- the engine that drives every Western economy -- will stop pulling the train. (We should see the first hint of that here during the coming holiday season.) Second, low wages paid to immigrants -- many illegal -- create the very conditions that sparked the riots in France. Do the math yourself. If American workers, who have seen their real wages drop like a rock, are beginning to feel the first signs of economic stress, imagine the fiscal conditions that face the average low-wage immigrant family. Such immigrants already live on the economic razor's edge. What they learn -- too late --is that the deck is stacked against them. They cannot join the mainstream of these societies, because allowing them to do so would require paying them a livable wage. And what purpose would that serve, paying immigrants the same as domestic workers? The French, for example, already don't seem to care for having all these folks in their country to begin with. The reason they put up with them is because they work for peanuts. France may be the first Western nation to experience the downside of cheap imported labor, but it will not be the last. Trapped in ghettos by low wages, stuck in low-end jobs by cultural, racial and religious factors, the lid eventually blows -- always. When that happens the citizens and companies that had benefited from their cheap labor first always go into denial. They are shocked, simply shocked! They blame everyone but themselves for the real reasons behind the violence. The rioters are "scum, stirred up by radical clerics. They are not oppressed, they have no genuine issues. They are just criminals." Yes, some of the rioters we are seeing in France are criminals. But France's real problem is that French society has become hooked on a pool of surplus immigrant labor. I said "surplus," because that's key to keeping cheap labor cheap. The trouble is that surplus of labor also means that, at any point in time, there are more unemployed immigrants in France than working ones, with more joining that surplus labor pool each day. Tick, tick, tick. America is lucky in that our flood of immigrants comes largely from Mexico, a generally peaceful country populated by peaceful people. (Have you ever heard of a Mexican suicide bomber?) France's immigrants, by comparison, largely herald from poor Muslim countries, like former French colonies in North Africa -- a part of the world where political/social/religous violence is the norm rather than the exception. But the Americans and the French have their thirst for cheap labor in common. And sooner or later, social unrest will hit here as well. Here, I suspect it will be American workers who got a taste of middle-class life, only to have it snatched away from them. Those once well-paid Americans now find themselves stranded between the rich, who are getting richer, and the working poor, who are getting poorer. The middle ground upon which they once stood has all but disappeared. They may not understand the macro-economic reasons for that, but they know this much -- they no longer have the means of moving up the economic ladder, and they have no intentions of joining the working poor. When that realization sinks in, even dirt-cheap toaster ovens at Wal-Mart won't help. Stephen Pizzo is the author of numerous books, including "Inside Job: The Looting of America's Savings and Loans," which was nominated for a Pulitzer. ? 2005 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved. From jonkc at att.net Wed Nov 9 17:32:49 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:32:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <000a01c5e539$37c633c0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <00ce01c5e553$aba01ad0$a20d4e0c@MyComputer> "Jack Parkinson" > The prediction here for the US and western nations in general is dire. Yawn. I predict that at one time or another there will indeed be riots in the USA, and in every other country in the world. Big deal, riots are a dime a dozen. I am not impressed. > And it won't be 'the Muslims' - because it wasn't > 'the Muslims' in France. Don't be silly, of course it was the Muslims in France. > It WILL be their local equivalent It will be a group that is at the bottom of the economic ladder, obviously. In France it was a group that was crippled by its religion; I do not think it's a coincidence that nearly all of the world's very poorest countries are Muslim despite having more than their far share of natural recourses. > Rather than despising these people I confess I find little in them that is lovable. > and branding them as criminals I thought beating up people, looting shops and burning cars was criminal, but perhaps I am misinformed. > and crazies I humbly submit that fundamentalist Muslims (or Christians) are crazies. > we should tackle these social problems now. By "we" you mean government and by "tackle" you mean the same tired old programs dreamed up by the same tired old politicians that have caused much of the problem in the first place; just do more of the same and everything will be rosy. If government really wants to help it should just get out of the way. > Contented citizens with full bellies NEVER man the barricades. Quite true and rather fortunate, if the richest and most productive and powerful elements in society rioted it would be far more disruptive. > Cheap labor produces cheap goods. A keen grasp of the obvious. > How many times have you bought something at a > Big Box store and said to yourself, I don't know > how they can make and sell this item so cheaply? Never, I just figured its cheap because its made in a third world sweat shop, and that doesn't bother me one tinny tiny bit. Suppose I run such a place making shirts and pay my 1000 workers 7 cents an hour. Am I a villain? I don't think so. My workers are delighted because the alternative to 7 cents an hour is zero cents an hour, I am delighted because I am making a very nice profit, and Wal-Mart customers are delighted because they get a nice shirt at a reasonable price. Or would it be more moral of me to fire 99 workers out of 100 and pay the remaining ones 7$ an hour, or fire 999 workers out of a thousand and pay the single remaining one 70$ an hour? Yes I know, I should pay all 1000 workers 70$ an hour, but I simply wouldn't have the money to do that because nobody would buy my shirts because nobody could afford them. And yes, I do think it's a tragedy that somebody must live on 7 cents a hour, but the root of that tragedy is not some evil Wal-Mart conspiracy, the root cause is that the world does not have enough wealth, and the way to generate that wealth is the free market not grandiose government schemes. Just after WW2 Japan and India were about equally poor, India initiated subsidies and price controls and nationalized companies all in the name of helping the poor; meanwhile Japan embraced capitalism. Today Japan is filthy rich and India still dirt poor. The contrast between North and South Korea is an even more extreme example of this. So forgive me if I don't get outraged when you talk about how Wal-Mart is exploiting workers in poor countries. John K Clark From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 02:17:39 2005 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:17:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] may i post letters here? Message-ID: <20051110021739.29848.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> it would be good protocol for me to ask you guys before posting something. Occasionally i would like to post letters to the editor that you can critique if you wish. What say you? --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 02:59:46 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:59:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation (iaging) In-Reply-To: <20051109055757.12964.qmail@web60023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Davis wrote: > Which brings me once again to the question: if I > extract some of my bone marrow, sort the various > progenitor cells, repair, rejuvenate, or immortalize > them, culture them to increase their number, and > reinject them into my bone marrow, can I rejuvenate > or > "super-rejuvenate" my bone marrow progenitor cell > repair/mainteneance capability and thereby achieve a > substantial extension of my health and/or lifespan? In answer to your question, yes. Supposing that you could somehow rejuvenate the CD34+ positive stem cells from your bone marrow, you would undoubtably extend your life. Immortalizing them however is a tricky proposition, because cellular immortalization without tight regulation of growth is called cancer. So from a systems point of view, rejuvenating your bone marrow and thymus would add many years to your life. The whole trick is figuring out HOW to do it without causing leukemia. The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Thu Nov 10 03:21:06 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:21:06 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France Message-ID: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> From: "John K Clark" said: Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France >Yawn. I predict that at one time or another there will indeed be riots in >the USA, and in every other country in the world. Big deal, riots are a >dime >a dozen. I am not impressed. Presumably, you will be impressed when this directly degrades the quality of yours and your families lives... Meantime - enjoy that complacency! >... I do not think >it's a coincidence that nearly all of the world's very poorest countries >are >Muslim despite having more than their far share of natural recourses. Some of the richest countries are also Muslim. And some of the world's most populous. >I humbly submit that fundamentalist Muslims (or Christians) are crazies. Glad we have one point of agreement - but we can't fight their ignorance with our ignorance. Contented citizens with full bellies NEVER man the barricades. >Quite true and rather fortunate, if the richest and most productive and >powerful elements in society rioted it would be far more disruptive. And far more crazy... Poverty is the root cause of discontent. > How many times have you bought something at a > Big Box store and said to yourself, I don't know > how they can make and sell this item so cheaply? >Never, I just figured its cheap because its made in a third world sweat >shop, and that doesn't bother me one tinny tiny bit. Suppose I run such a >place making shirts and pay my 1000 workers 7 cents an hour. Am I a >villain? I don't think so. My workers are delighted because the alternative >to 7 cents an hour is zero cents an hour, I am delighted because I am >making >a very nice profit, and Wal-Mart customers are delighted because they get a >nice shirt at a reasonable price. Spoilt rich kids always praise their own benevolence when they hand out their loose change. The hot news is: No one is ever delighted at earning 7 cents an hour. They want a house with a manicured lawn, a membership of the golf club and an SUV. When they see someone like you buying and enjoying these little luxuries with the money they have earned you - they start thinking about torching cars and burning shops... >Or would it be more moral of me to fire 99 workers out of 100 and pay the >remaining ones 7$ an hour, Yes... >And yes, I do think it's a tragedy that somebody must live on 7 cents a >hour, but the root of that tragedy is not some evil Wal-Mart conspiracy, >the >root cause is that the world does not have enough wealth There is plenty of wealth in the world. Basic needs for everyone could be met with a level of expenditure that is so low, it is unlikely to be noticed. Most international relief agencies estimate 25 billion US dollars as a enough to provide everyone with food, clean water and basic health care - right now. This sum is peanuts in the overall scheme of things - and would probably take off a lot of pressure from the western nations in the form of less illegal immigration, less hostility, less resentment, and less tendency to stir up militant action/terrorism. If you know that desperate people strap explosives to their bodies and blow up trains - best make sure they are not desperate in the first place. >and the way to generate that wealth is the free market not grandiose >government schemes. IF we had a real free market maybe. I don't think this free market creature does exists and even doubt that it really can exist... Current 'free markets' are simply manipulated, tightly controlled strategies to put the power and profits into corporate HQ's in the US and Europe. >Just after WW2 Japan and India were about equally poor, India initiated >subsidies and price controls and nationalized companies all in the name of >helping the poor; meanwhile Japan embraced capitalism. Today Japan is >filthy >rich and India still dirt poor. A bit simplistic to say the least. Japan is in deep economic trouble now despite being at the economic forefront a generation ago. India is riding an economic boom which is seeing a burgeoning, affluent middle class and a sophisticated, well-trained, and increasingly high-tech work-force. China is likely to take the top spot as world number 1 economy within the next ten years - India will not be far behind. Between them, these two countries will have about 35-40% of the worlds population, and can dominate world trade. These are the next two super-powers... >So forgive me if I don't get outraged when you talk about how Wal-Mart is >exploiting workers in >poor countries. John K Clark Yes, I'll forgive you John. But not everyone is such a nice guy... Jack Parkinson From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 10 03:43:31 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:43:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051109212759.01d15eb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:21 AM 11/10/2005 +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: >Spoilt rich kids always praise their own benevolence when they hand out >their loose change. The hot news is: No one is ever delighted at earning 7 >cents an hour. They want a house with a manicured lawn, a membership of >the golf club and an SUV. When they see someone like you buying and >enjoying these little luxuries with the money they have earned you - they >start thinking about torching cars and burning shops... Jack, the odd thing is that probably every Aussie on this list shares your basic perspective, while it remains bizarre and wrong-headed to most of the US extropes. Hard to say why that is; we are not *utterly* slaves of our nations' economics dogmas. On the other hand, you're overstating your case just a tad. Rioters in France aren't living on 7 cents an hour, and I doubt many of them are earning the bourgeoisie their SUVs--it's exactly because there's no obvious route to decent work that they go crazy with rage. Their parents, generally, were imported as a dirt cheap labor pool--as many Europeans were to Oz in the 50s--and technological/ educational shifts, plus pervasive and fearful disdain from the haves, leave their kids with few prospects, even as they watch endless TV shows, movies and games that goad them with visions of wealth, ease, fun, and mayhem. My wife Barbara tells me DeSoto and Thomas Sowell have much to say on the cultural backgrounds to these topics, but the problems seem to me almost intractable by now. Maybe dead-cheap molecular manufacture will end such strife, but I stand by my gloomy prediction in THE SPIKE a decade or so back that what we'll see is a planet of Color Gang Wars and the like among those for whom life retains no discipline or meaning outside of arbitrary local status and violence. Damien Broderick From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 03:43:50 2005 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:43:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <20051110034351.92558.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> But you must know by now how slowly we are evolving; riots will likely be sporadic 50 years from now. After that who knows, however radicals don't appear to grasp the constancy of thinking, such as how so many elderly are obsessed with what it was it was like in 1949 or whenever. Too many muslims want to return to the glory days of 1913 before the Ottomans got into WWI and went out of business. Muslim thinking is too deeply wired into Islamics' minds to even begin to think it will change soon. There is plenty of wealth in the world. Basic needs for everyone could be met with a level of expenditure that is so low, it is unlikely to be noticed. Most international relief agencies estimate 25 billion US dollars as a enough to provide everyone with food, clean water and basic health care - right now. This sum is peanuts in the overall scheme of things - and would probably take off a lot of pressure from the western nations in the form of less illegal immigration, less hostility, less resentment, and less tendency to stir up militant action/terrorism. If you know that desperate people strap explosives to their bodies and blow up trains - best make sure they are not desperate in the first place. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 03:53:44 2005 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <20051110034351.92558.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051110035344.52471.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Most of all radicals overemphasize the economic aspect. You forget how much Muslims want meaning even though we here know there is no meaning. All the economic growth in the world isn't going to give Muslims meaning in life, just at most some sort of purpose-- which isn't enough, at least for Muslims. Muslim beliefs are less superficial than we want to know, the beliefs are imbedded in their minds. Al Brooks wrote: But you must know by now how slowly we are evolving; riots will likely be sporadic 50 years from now. After that who knows, however radicals don't appear to grasp the constancy of thinking, such as how so many elderly are obsessed with what it was it was like in 1949 or whenever. Too many muslims want to return to the glory days of 1913 before the Ottomans got into WWI and went out of business. Muslim thinking is too deeply wired into Islamics' minds to even begin to think it will change soon. There is plenty of wealth in the world. Basic needs for everyone could be met with a level of expenditure that is so low, it is unlikely to be noticed. Most international relief agencies estimate 25 billion US dollars as a enough to provide everyone with food, clean water and basic health care - right now. This sum is peanuts in the overall scheme of things - and would probably take off a lot of pressure from the western nations in the form of less illegal immigration, less hostility, less resentment, and less tendency to stir up militant action/terrorism. If you know that desperate people strap explosives to their bodies and blow up trains - best make sure they are not desperate in the first place. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Nov 10 05:44:35 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:44:35 +1100 Subject: Molecular manfacturing Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <6.2.1.2.0.20051109212759.01d15eb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <00bd01c5e5b9$d519b770$8998e03c@homepc> Damien Broderick wrote: > Maybe dead-cheap molecular manufacture will end such strife, > but I stand by my gloomy prediction in THE SPIKE a decade or > so back that what we'll see is a planet of Color Gang Wars and > the like among those for whom life retains no discipline or meaning > outside of arbitrary local status and violence. I think that if it were considered to be an imminently realizable threat (or promise), dead-cheap molecular manufacture for the masses would be opposed by empowered minorities as though their existing privileges, their future economic aspirations and even their lives depended on it. The first thought of empowered minorities would probably be how could they own and control this imminent efficient means of manufacturing exclusively; the second thought when they recognized that they could not, would be that it would be better to ban it completely so as to ensure that none of their competitors or enemies would end up with it either. Dead cheap molecular manufacturing would not only change the basis of all existing economies (and so threaten the established interests of the powerful and existing social order) but would also enable dead cheap manufacturing of weapons (which would scare the proverbial shit out of the established interests of the currently powerful). Unfortunately (I should say in my opinion here I guess) molecular manufacturing is a *double* pipe dream. If it were technologically possible it would be politically impossible. Contemporary humans would "Fermi paradox" themselves. Most contemporary humans (Muslims and Christians) still purport to believe and act as though this life is some sort of rehearsal for a supernatural next one. Whilst that is so, molecular nanotech would be directed towards weapons construction. Brett Paatsch From moulton at moulton.com Thu Nov 10 06:53:32 2005 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:53:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <20051110035344.52471.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051110035344.52471.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1131605613.12021.339.camel@localhost.localdomain> I think we should avoid focusing on this as just a "Muslim" issue. From the news reports I have seen it is more complex. One feature to consider is the differences in government policy in housing, work regulations and taxation. In the Tuesday Nov 8 Wall Street Journal there is an opinion piece by Joel Kotkin titled "Our Immigrants, Their Immigrants" in which Kotkin discusses issues such as possible discrimination, unemployment and government social policy and how French government policies have contributed to their problems. In contrast Kotkin describes the more open free-market, lower tax, lower regulation that is found in many parts of the US where immigrants are a vibrant part of the social and economic life of the area. On a related note, in the Wall Street Journal Wednesday Nov 9 there is an interesting article about the effect of real estate ownership on poor people. The article describes an area (a former dump) in Buenos Aires Argentina which was taken over by poor people (about 1800 families) in 1981. Through a variety of circumstances about half of them got title to their lots (typically 30 ft by 100 ft). All of the families started with similar jobs, education, etc. Now the families with title have improved their homes, have children who are better educated, have a more positive outlook on live, etc. Just as Hernando de Soto has said and if you have not read any of the works by Hernando de Soto I recommend that you do. Fred From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 07:15:54 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:15:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Molecular manfacturing Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <00bd01c5e5b9$d519b770$8998e03c@homepc> Message-ID: <20051110071554.1842.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > I think that if it were considered to be an > imminently realizable > threat (or promise), dead-cheap molecular > manufacture for the > masses would be opposed by empowered minorities as > though > their existing privileges, their future economic > aspirations and > even their lives depended on it. I think history and contemporary third world culture definitely corraborates your assessment. There are in nearly all cultures past and present, those who would cling so tenaciously to power (even of the most mediocre sort) through undermining the power of their neighbors. Thus they view political power as minimazation of every one elses utility function rather than maximumization of their own. Thus instead of trying to increase their power by increasing the overall GDP of their own countries, for example, many dictators are satisfied with simply denying their charges of basic necessities. Take for an example off of the top of my head, North Korea. Kim Il Jong sits upon a motherlode of mineral wealth yet he would rather let it lie unutilized in the earth whilst his subjects starve rather than develope it and risk having to share power. > The first thought of empowered minorities would > probably be > how could they own and control this imminent > efficient means > of manufacturing exclusively; the second thought > when they > recognized that they could not, would be that it > would be > better to ban it completely so as to ensure that > none of their > competitors or enemies would end up with it either. In the land of the blind there is much eye gouging by the one-eyed king. > > Unfortunately (I should say in my opinion here I > guess) molecular > manufacturing is a *double* pipe dream. > If it were technologically possible it would be > politically > impossible. Contemporary humans would "Fermi > paradox" > themselves. Most contemporary humans (Muslims and > Christians) > still purport to believe and act as though this life > is some sort of > rehearsal for a supernatural next one. Whilst that > is so, > molecular nanotech would be directed towards weapons > construction. So very tragic it is that these people believe they are rehearsing, not realizing that they are playing improv to a packed house for a limited engagement. Perhaps someday, we may be able to oblige these people out of pity, by programming virtual heaven, hell, and paradise and uploading them into their appropriate after-life based on the reviews they recieve from their critics in the audience. The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 10 07:29:02 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:29:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France Message-ID: Fred Moulton >I think we should avoid focusing on this as just a "Muslim" issue. From >the news reports I have seen it is more complex. One feature to >consider is the differences in government policy in housing, work >regulations and taxation. I agree, I think it's missing most of the picture to see the focus on "Muslim". In addition to my previous post on immigration in France ( http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2005-November/021679.html ), I dug up this next article about the French citizenship requirements. It looks not too different from Swiss citizenship requirements, which in my view are excessively rigid. In both of these countries, being born in that country does not automatically give citizenship. Here's a site I found that says more: (corrected a few of their typos and the writer does not have a fluent grasp of English, unfortunately) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- French citizenship Requirements http://www.euskosare.org/euskal_herria/euskal_herrian_bizi/french_nationality Conditions to obtain the nationality : By filiation * French is the son, legitimate or illegitimate with, at least, one of its parents being of french nationality. * The filiation of the child has no effect on its nationality if it is not established while being a minor. * The sole fact of being born in france does not confer nationality, except for the children of unknown parents or stateless. * The son born in france before january 1994 with at least one parent born in the ancient overseas french territory (before its independency) is also considered a french citizen. By reason of birth and residence in france As from september 1st. 1998, every child of foreign parents born in france acquires french nationality at his majority if he is living in France and if he has lived in france, in a continuous or discontinuous way al least five years (starting at the age of 11 years). Under certain circumstances, nationality can be acquired beforehand starting a from sixteen years. French nationality can also be demanded under certain circumstances by the name of the minor as from the age of thirteen years, always under his personal consent. This situation affects the children of foreigners born in france which, starting with the application of said law (september 1st., 1998) have three possibilities: 1. If they desire only to maintain the foreign nationality, they can renounce to the french nationality before the competent french authorities during the six precedent months or during the twelve months that follow their majority. 2. If they desire to maintain the foreign nationality and acquire the french nationality it is advisable to request for this last before their majority of age. 3. In case the interested party that fulfills the requirements of the first paragraph does not carry out any of the beforementioned proceedings french law will automatically grant them this nationality at their majority of age. By marriage to a french citizen French nationality can be agreed by declaration before the instance judge or the french consul (if the interested party lives abroad) to each foreigner or stateless which marries a person of french nationality. This benefit can be solicited a year after the marriage was celebrated, and under the condition that the couple keeps living together and the french consort has not lost that nationality. By naturalization The requests for naturalization of residents in france are competence of public organizations at the place of origin for the constitution of the file, and at the ministry of employment for final decision. Foreigners can be naturalized if they can prove residence in France during the five preceding years of the request. A person which does not reside in France at the moment of the firm of the decree cannot be naturalized. For residence it is understood a fixed residence that present a stable and permanent character, coincident with the centre of material interests and family bonds . Children of those people who acquire french nationality become french with full rights if they have the same residence as their parents. Necessary documentation for the obtention of double nationality * Integral copy of marriage certificate or of its transcription (for marriages celebrated out of France a duly translated and legalized certificate has to be presented). * Copy of berth certificate of the french consort. * Copy of birth certificate of the foreign consort accompanied of traduction effected by a public judged translator. * Evidence of french nationality of the french consort : the birth certificate is sufficient for the persons born in france with at least one of his parents also born in France. In other cases, the documents demanded depend on the origin of french nationality of the interested party , naturalization decree, collective effect , etc. A french nationality certificate could occasionally be demanded when the verification of the french nationality should be difficult. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The next is a good set of citizen references for many countries (but not for France) if you are curious. I think that citizenship and immigration laws are an important factor in guessing the 'dissatisfaction' of foreign people living there. Internet Law Library: Immigration, Nationality and citizenship law http://www.lawguru.com/ilawlib/104.htm -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It is intriguing to learn that the simplicity of the world depends upon the temperature of the environment." ---John D. Barrow From dmasten at piratelabs.org Thu Nov 10 07:39:54 2005 From: dmasten at piratelabs.org (David Masten) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:39:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <1131608394.3591.24.camel@dmlap> On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 11:21 +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: > >Or would it be more moral of me to fire 99 workers out of 100 and pay the > >remaining ones 7$ an hour, > > Yes... But this is part of the reason for the riots. French laws ensure excellent working conditions for those who have jobs, but as a consequence they have high unemployment with the unemployed having little to no hope of gaining employment. It is the unemployed who are rioting. How is this more moral? From megao at sasktel.net Thu Nov 10 07:50:38 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 01:50:38 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> But that's the challenge, to switch every body cell on as a totipotent cancer cell similtaneously, slow down the metabolism so none divides, circulate a swarm of autoimmune cells to tag defective cells for future destruction, reset all the switches , crank up the metabolism and send in the scavenger cells to wack out the burned out cells and infuse a new batch of stem cells into every tissue to rebuild tissues. A massive order, but like with "Doctor Who" it is steady state-evolution which will replace natural selection by death or illness. The trick is to maintain the memory and consciousness of the brain through this housecleaning operation. The Avantguardian wrote: >--- Jeff Davis wrote: > > >>Which brings me once again to the question: if I >>extract some of my bone marrow, sort the various >>progenitor cells, repair, rejuvenate, or immortalize >>them, culture them to increase their number, and >>reinject them into my bone marrow, can I rejuvenate >>or >>"super-rejuvenate" my bone marrow progenitor cell >>repair/mainteneance capability and thereby achieve a >>substantial extension of my health and/or lifespan? >> >> > >In answer to your question, yes. Supposing that you >could somehow rejuvenate the CD34+ positive stem cells >from your bone marrow, you would undoubtably extend >your life. Immortalizing them however is a tricky >proposition, because cellular immortalization without >tight regulation of growth is called cancer. So from a >systems point of view, rejuvenating your bone marrow >and thymus would add many years to your life. The >whole trick is figuring out HOW to do it without >causing leukemia. > >The Avantguardian >is >Stuart LaForge >alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 09:03:27 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:03:27 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <000a01c5e539$37c633c0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <000a01c5e539$37c633c0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/9/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > The story below is for anyone who believes that the French riots are > something peculiar to that country. The prediction here for the US and > western nations in general is dire. Could be that a similar situation to > that in France is not so far away from your local neighborhood... > And it won't be 'the Muslims' - because it wasn't 'the Muslims' in France. > > It WILL be their local equivalent... Whatever underpaid, under-resourced, > ghettoised minority is currently do the drudge work in your area for less > than a living wage - while living in a hovel. True to a large extent. The problem is exacerbated when that minority has a coherent religious ideology that is inimical to the society they are living in. And as an aside, we should stop importing cheap labour. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 09:09:13 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:09:13 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 26, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/9/05, Neil H. wrote: > > On 11/9/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > But when a Protestant commits an horrendous crime - do you automatically > > blame all of them? > > > > To what extent can Medieval Christianity be blamed for the Crusades? > Quite a lot IMO. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Nov 10 09:47:58 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:47:58 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc> From: Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO To: ExI chat list Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:50 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation But that's the challenge, to switch every body cell on as a totipotent cancer cell similtaneously, slow down the metabolism so none divides, circulate a swarm of autoimmune cells to tag defective cells for future destruction, reset all the switches , crank up the metabolism and send in the scavenger cells to wack out the burned out cells and infuse a new batch of stem cells into every tissue to rebuild tissues. A massive order, but like with "Doctor Who" it is steady state-evolution which will replace natural selection by death or illness. The trick is to maintain the memory and consciousness of the brain through this housecleaning operation. "Every body cell" would give you a base set of around 100 trillion cells. Lets say you wanted to switch every body cell to a cancer cell (I don't think that even makes sense - but lets say), how would you do it? With what hormone or molecule? Or are you thinking nanobots? How would you slow down metabolism so no cells divide? Metabolism works in such a way that when cells stop getting fed (glucose levels in blood are low) some cells (in the liver say) go into glucose or ketone bodies from fat production specifically to fed other cells (like brain cells) so that they wont die when there is no dietary glucose available. Or by slowing down metabolism did you mean cryonics? Where do your autoimmune cells that are to do the tagging to come from themselves (you stopped cell division -somehow- remember)? What cell markers are they to zero in on? If you've made *every* cell cancerous how many macrophage/eater cells are you going to have to have ? How do you imagine they'll fit geometrically in the body made of other cells? Are your scavenger cells "carrying" the new batch of stem cells? How are they getting through the blood brain barrier? I am not even slightly an expert in this area but I think I know enough to recognize that what you have said above doesn't make any biological sense. I mean no offense but it seems like you might be repeating something that you have heard someone else say which didn't make sense but which you didn't understand well enough to realise that it didn't make sense. Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Thu Nov 10 10:13:21 2005 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:13:21 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051109212759.01d15eb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <000901c5e5a5$d1075390$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <6.2.1.2.0.20051109212759.01d15eb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <1131617602.11483.120.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 21:43 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > Jack, the odd thing is that probably every Aussie on this list shares your > basic perspective, To try to throw some cold water on the nationalistic perspective, I don't (legally Aussie, and even though I wasn't born here, I have by now lived here for most of my life). alejandro From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Thu Nov 10 11:42:03 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:42:03 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dirk Bruere To: Jack Parkinson Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:11 PM On 11/9/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: Dirk wrote: >>So, who blew up the trains? >>Was it little old white ladies? >>However, I think I can stand behind the statement that 'not a single Black >>citizen bombed the trains in London'. >>>Any statement that begins: 'All Moslems/blacks/Irish/Poles... (insert >>> favorite despised minority here) is just a confession of personal >>> prejudice, bigotry and ignorance... >>Well, death to your straw man - because I didn't say 'all'. Dirk >>No, you didn't - but if you meant your comments to be restricted to the >>actual perpetrators rather than the groups they (putatively) represent - >>then you phrased your critique pretty badly. >The average Moslem is as much to blame for what's happening as the average >Communist was to >blame for the excesses of Communism. Or the average >Fascist to blame for the excesses of >Fascism. >How's that? Dirk Yes. That sounds good. Since the average communist/fascist was not at all to blame for the excesses of those regimes. And I would bet that the average Moslem around the world also knows nothing about the riots in France - or even that Moslems live in France in any significant numbers... Average people are rarely to blame anywhere for anything in fact - except in sometimes being too passive. In the (admittedly disputed) maxim attributed to Edmund Burke: 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'. All excess is by definition an aberration from the average. All radical polarization of thought, opinion and practice is also NOT average by definition. Terrorism, violence, murder etc are also NOT average - these are extremes of the human experience. Average people are ok. They are good citizens. They educate their kids, mostly uphold the law, and mostly pay their taxes. But God help any government that thinks it can get away with nominating a section of the community as the permanent sub-average the rest of society can exploit. Sooner or later they will bite the hand that claims to be feeding them. That 'hand,'- is all those people who say that poverty wages are better than no wages, a leaky roof is better than no roof, no proper medical treatment is still better than being dead. In France it is the second-class pseudo-citizenship of the North African 'inexpulsables.' Those who cannot be legally expelled or deported - but who are definitely unwanted - except as a source of cheap labor. Denying these people equality of education, social status and job opportunity is just lighting the fuse - trouble must come as sure as night follows day.. Jack Parkinson From mail at harveynewstrom.com Thu Nov 10 16:43:01 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (mail at harveynewstrom.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:43:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> Message-ID: Jeff Davis wrote: > Which brings me once again to the question: > if I[...]rejuvenate[...]my bone marrow, > can I rejuvenate[...]my bone marrow[...]? This is a circular, tautological question that assumes its own answer before it is asked. If we assume that we can tweak bone marrow to extend lifespan, would this allow us to tweak bone marrow to extend lifespan? This question and answer discussion has nil information content. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From megao at sasktel.net Thu Nov 10 17:36:32 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:36:32 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc> References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> <013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc> Message-ID: <43738520.9000809@sasktel.net> Actually I have been thinking about this for many years (over 2 decades) and what has to be done is to put the body into near hibernation state and slow metabolism to a crawl. The introduced cells have to be able to function at a high rate even under these conditions and perhaps even have a metabolism that either stops or self-destructs at normal body temperatures and metabolism as a failsafe. The body metabolism over perhaps a month might be equivalent to an hour while the introduced cells are working at breakneck speed and may be able do a years work over that month. These cells would have to metabolize energy sources that the body would otherwise consider inert. The introduced cells should have to be able to carry away, or metabolize dangerous waste biological products of the hibernating body as well. Just think about the creation of several separate secondary "programmable" armies of specialized minicells. We use the term nanobot without the slightest clue as to what they might be or how they would operate so this is quite in line with that concept. What we might have to do is provide them with an environment where they can work efficiently and with undue interference from normal body processes. Indeed it might take interaction with a number of supervisory systems ranging from MRI type scanners , and AI complexity oversight to move this process from start to finish without killing the customer. A new stem cell population would need to be grown beforehand, perhaps in a controlled way sequestered in the body much like an encapsulated tumor or embryo and harvested prior to the regerarative procedure. And the leuekemia analogy is a good one, perhaps we shall find deliberate creation of a cancerous stem cell population the best way to create a large population of embyonic case type cells to infuse back. Remember, cancer cells can slither around and take root in all manner of places in the body quite efficiently. The trick is to be able to turn on and off this mechanism on demand. I think that with the convergence of technologies at a singularity level with AI level computational capacity there is hope to create this level of sophistication in the mangement of biological systems. I did not say that this would be easy. Just remember that what we consider normal in terms of computer chips and their functions would have been considered magic or witchcraft and idle fantasy as little as 100 years ago. Morris. Brett Paatsch wrote: > From: Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO > To: ExI chat list > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:50 PM > Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation > > But that's the challenge, to switch every body cell on as a > totipotent cancer cell similtaneously, slow down the metabolism so > none divides, circulate a swarm of autoimmune cells to tag > defective cells for future destruction, reset all the switches > , crank up the metabolism and send in the scavenger cells to wack > out the burned out cells and infuse a new batch of stem cells > into every tissue to rebuild tissues. A massive order, but like > with "Doctor Who" it is steady state-evolution which will replace > natural selection by death or illness. The trick is to maintain > the memory and consciousness of the brain through this > housecleaning operation. > > "Every body cell" would give you a base set of around 100 trillion cells. > > Lets say you wanted to switch every body cell to a cancer cell (I > don't think > that even makes sense - but lets say), how would you do it? With what > hormone or molecule? Or are you thinking nanobots? > > How would you slow down metabolism so no cells divide? Metabolism > works in such a way that when cells stop getting fed (glucose levels in > blood are low) some cells (in the liver say) go into glucose or ketone > bodies from fat production specifically to fed other cells (like brain > cells) > so that they wont die when there is no dietary glucose available. > Or by slowing down metabolism did you mean cryonics? > > Where do your autoimmune cells that are to do the tagging to come > from themselves (you stopped cell division -somehow- remember)? What > cell markers are they to zero in on? If you've made *every* cell > cancerous > how many macrophage/eater cells are you going to have to have ? How do > you imagine they'll fit geometrically in the body made of other cells? > > Are your scavenger cells "carrying" the new batch of stem cells? How > are they getting through the blood brain barrier? > > I am not even slightly an expert in this area but I think I know enough > to recognize that what you have said above doesn't make any biological > sense. > > I mean no offense but it seems like you might be repeating something > that you have heard someone else say which didn't make sense but > which you didn't understand well enough to realise that it didn't make > sense. > > Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From megao at sasktel.net Thu Nov 10 17:39:45 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:39:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc> References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> <013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc> Message-ID: <437385E1.2060303@sasktel.net> Re-the brain: The blood brain barrier is a neat way to segregate the access of this process into 2 categories, body tissue regeneration and brain tissue management. We certainly do not want to be smashing and bashing about in the brain the same way as in the rest of the body. Biology has laid out these systems really neat this way. From mail at harveynewstrom.com Thu Nov 10 17:47:59 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (mail at harveynewstrom.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:47:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <43738520.9000809@sasktel.net> References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> <013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc> <43738520.9000809@sasktel.net> Message-ID: Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO writes: > Actually I have been thinking about this for many years (over 2 decades) > and what has to be done is to put the body into > near hibernation state and slow metabolism to a crawl. Is there any evidence that animals that hibernate live longer than animals that don't? Or that preventing an animal from hibernating shortens its lifespan? I am not sure that the assumption that hibernation slows down aging is necessarily true. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From jonkc at att.net Thu Nov 10 17:45:56 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:45:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com><006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> "Jack Parkinson" > Presumably, you will be impressed when this (silly riots in France) > directly degrades the quality of yours and your families lives Anything that directly degrades the quality of my life or that of my family impresses me; but a bunch of ignorant kids in France pretending to be American gangster rappors is unlikely to do that. > Some of the richest countries are also Muslim. A few Muslim countries through a lucky geological break happen to be sitting on top of a lake that contains 2/3 of the world's oil and so are rich, but that hasn't stopped Nigeria, a Muslim country with lots of oil, from being the second poorest country on Earth, beaten only by Mozambique, another Muslim country. Continuing on our list of the poorest countries in the world we have Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, The Congo, Bangladesh, Angola and Afghanistan, all are predominantly Muslim countries. Let's look at a subset of the Muslim world, the Arabs. There are over 250 million Arabs and they have most of the world's oil, but nevertheless the GNP of the entire Arab world is less than that of Spain, a country with no oil and a population of only 40 million. One reason for this may be that the number of books translated into Arabic over the past thousand years is about the same as the number of books translated into Spanish just last year. > Poverty is the root cause of discontent. No, if everybody is poor you're not angry, just sad. Envy is the root cause of discontent. > Spoilt rich kids always praise their own benevolence I may be spoilt but I make no claims of benevolence, I make no claim that I earned the right to be born in a western non Muslim culture, I was just lucky. > No one is ever delighted at earning 7 > cents an hour. Quite untrue. If everyone you knew was making zero cents an hour and was 24 hours away from starvation and you were making 7 cents an hour and was a full 48 hours away from starvation you would feel like Rockefeller. >They want a house with a manicured lawn, a membership of the > golf club and an SUV. The people of South Korea have all that now, but 50 years ago they were on that infamous list of the poorest countries on the planet. Things changed when the Korean's complained about the injustice of it all so the rich countries piled gold onto huge cargo ships and sent it to Korea until everybody was equal. No wait, I misspoke that's not how it happened, now I remember: The Korean workers said they'd rather not work for 7 cents an hour and would prefer 70 dollars an hour and their employers said sure no problem. Or maybe it was because the Korean people valued education in things other than in a book of superstitions written 1500 yeas ago, and they had a very strong work ethic, and they embraced capitalism with a vengeance. Maybe that's why South Koreans were issued 15,000 patents over the last 20 years while the entire Arab world had fewer than 400. The contrast between North and South Korea is also interesting, both started with the same culture and the same language, but one had a tightly controlled economy "to help the common people" and one did not. Look at them now! Me: >> would it be more moral of me to fire 99 workers out of 100 and pay the >> remaining ones 7$ an hour You: > Yes. Your position is indefensible morally and economically. Moral nonsense: For every person I can hire there are a thousand lined up outside the gates of my factory begging for chance to make the huge sum of 7 cents an hour; and you, allegedly an advocate of more equality, advise me to make things even more unequal by firing 99 out of 100 of my employs and give the fortunate survivor the ridiculous salary of 7 dollars and hour. Economic nonsense: Now that I have taken your advice my expenses are the same as before but my output is only 1% of what is was, so I must charge 100 times more than what I did before for my product, but at that price nobody at Wal-Mart will buy it. Thus whatever my intentions I no longer have the money to pay my single remaining employee 7 dollars an hour, or even 7 cents an hour, he now makes zero cents an hour and I'm dead broke too. And this is the way to cure world poverty? > There is plenty of wealth in the world. Baloney. There is no way the wealth of the world could be divided up among 7 billion people so everyone has a decent lifestyle, and you and I, the pampered product of rich western culture, would be among those howling in pain the loudest. However this need not always be true because Extropians do not think the economy is a zero sum game, in fact it's about as far from a zero sum game as you can get. > I don't think this free market creature does exists and even doubt > that it really can exist. Any particular reason? > Current 'free markets' are simply manipulated, tightly controlled > strategies Yes, most markets are controlled by governments much more than is rational, without that interference there would be far fewer poor people, perhaps none at all. The freest of all free markets is the black market and that's why it thrives. > to put the power and profits into corporate HQ's in the US and Europe. You almost make that sound like a bad thing. > Japan is in deep economic trouble now Trouble is a relative term. Japan is in economic trouble compared to the USA perhaps, but compared with any Muslim country it most certainly is not, it is in hog heaven because despite its difficulties Japan still has the second largest economy in the world. > India is riding an economic boom Yes, India has improved in the last few years after it started to back away a bit from decades of socialistic laws, regulations, and other brakes on its economy. > China is likely to take the top spot as world number 1 economy within the > next ten years Perhaps, but I don't see the point you're trying to make, it certainly can't be that capitalism is a bad way to make the economy grow and the population of a country rich. John K Clark From megao at sasktel.net Thu Nov 10 18:30:47 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:30:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com> <4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net> <013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc> <43738520.9000809@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <437391D7.4050708@sasktel.net> What I mean is that during the process of regeneration and all its assorted processes that the body be rendered as dormant as possible to allow better control of the processes involved in the housekeeping. Once the entire procedure is complete, the body would be brought back to an average normal metabolic rate and like running a car through a drive through car wash out she goes and like Macdonalds or Walmart or Carl Sagan would say "billions and billions- of happy customers served" Instead of pension funds and life insurance funds the medical regeneration lifespan augmentation funds would have to accrue for decades to fund each person's session. This would create income related disparities as billionaires could routinely jump the que for R&R while the average person would get the basic 50 year tune-up. Disease and accident would tend to claim more low income people between R&R than those wealthy enough to go for regenerative treatment on demand. As well steady-state evolution might progress many times faster for the wealthy. The other side is that if a critical error is introduced into the gene pool that only a few leading edge subjects would succumb to it before it is detected and dealt with. This is then an opportunity by changing the stem cell population that will be re-intoduced to do a gradual steady-state evolution. Perhaps this process is undertaken initially every 50 years (because the resources to handle a large population simply would make the que that long) and over time perhaps make it every 10 years. Instead of pension funds and life insurance funds the medical regeneration lifespan augmentation funds would have to accrue for decades to fund each person's session. This would create income related disparities as billionaires could routinely jump the que for R&R while the average person would get the basic 50 year tune-up. Disease and accident would tend to claim more low income people between R&R than those wealthy enough to go for regenerative treatment on demand. As well steady-state evolution might progress many times faster for the wealthy. The other side is that if a critical error is introduced into the gene pool that only a few leading edge subjects would succumb to it before it is detected and dealt with. There is value to having a "wild state" gene pool to draw from in case of catastophic error in the programmable evolutionary state population. Luddites in this case will find themselves a niche too. mail at harveynewstrom.com wrote: > Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO writes: > >> Actually I have been thinking about this for many years (over 2 >> decades) and what has to be done is to put the body into >> near hibernation state and slow metabolism to a crawl. > > > Is there any evidence that animals that hibernate live longer than > animals that don't? Or that preventing an animal from hibernating > shortens its lifespan? I am not sure that the assumption that > hibernation slows down aging is necessarily true. > -- From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 10 18:27:42 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:27:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051110122206.01cb3278@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:45 PM 11/10/2005 -0500, John K Clark wrote: >>They want a house with a manicured lawn, a membership of the >>golf club and an SUV. > >The people of South Korea have all that now, but 50 years ago they were on >that infamous list of the poorest countries on the planet. Things changed >when the Korean's complained about the injustice of it all so the rich >countries piled gold onto huge cargo ships and sent it to Korea until >everybody was equal. No wait, I misspoke that's not how it happened Actually it sort of is. I thought for a giddy moment you were referring to, for example, the long history of pumping aid money into SK, such as this from 1997: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/12/24/korea.aid/ < U.S. Prepares Korea Aid Package By John King/CNN WASHINGTON (Dec. 24) -- Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin announced today that a $1.7 billion loan will be made available to South Korea in January, to help the Seoul government bolster confidence in its financial markets. The loan is part of a hastily arranged international effort to accelerate assistance to South Korea... The commitment by the U.S. and other G-7 nations is in conjunction with an International Monetary Fund decision to also speed up loans to South Korea. The centerpiece of the bailout package is a total of $57 billion in loans, most of them from the IMF and the World Bank. South Korea has received $14 billion so far and today's announcement means another $10 billion in loans will be made available by early January. As part of the bailout package, the United States pledged to make $5 billion in loans available as a "second line of defense" in case IMF and other international assistance was not enough to stabilize South Korean markets. Until now, the administration had resisted South Korea's calls for some of that money to be made available immediately. But the White House says it is now clear a more aggressive international response is necessary. > From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 19:47:14 2005 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:47:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] even if Arab poverty were terminated Message-ID: <20051110194714.93152.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> If poverty were to be terminated in Arab nations, Arabs would still go to war. The koran was written in the 7th century, so for over 1,300 years Arabs have beem reading advice such as to lie in wait for infidels & jews to ambush them at every opportunity. To attack the enemies of Islam is an unambiguous part of the radical Arab heritage, and though radical Arab nationalists constitute only a small fraction of Arabs, sympathy for radicals is not inconsiderable. Of course ending poverty wouldn't hurt at all, but you can see in Western nations that fundamentalist xians and orthodox jews becoming wealthy does not substantially alter their extreme religious views. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 22:04:25 2005 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20051110220425.90115.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> This is the point that needs to be made. But don't forget that militants want meaning as well as revenge. Their dumb religion gives them some sort of meaning, as it gave their ancestors the same for 1,300 years. Look at America, it has what it takes to end poverty however there exists so too much bitterness and dysfunctionality. Many in America still fume about the Civil War which ended 140 years ago. As Sakharov said, alienation & criminality are the problem everywhere, if every American were wealthy families would still break up or be dysfunctional because all the wealth in the world can't magically glue back together a broken family wherein the parents despise each other. We don't like to accept irreconcilable differences-- but we have to. Now it wont harm anything to end poverty in the Arab world, but it wont make them ecumenical peaceniks filled with the desire to build an extropian world. >No, if everybody is poor you're not angry, just sad. Envy is the root cause >of discontent. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 23:17:35 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051110231735.65326.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com> --- mail at harveynewstrom.com wrote: > > Is there any evidence that animals that hibernate > live longer than animals > that don't? Or that preventing an animal from > hibernating shortens its > lifespan? I am not sure that the assumption that > hibernation slows down > aging is necessarily true. Yes. It has been shown conclusively in bats. The abstract of the paper follows: Aging Cell. 2002 Dec;1(2):124-31. Life history, ecology and longevity in bats. Wilkinson GS, South JM. Department of Biology, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742, USA. gw10 at umail.umd.edu The evolutionary theory of aging predicts that life span should decrease in response to the amount of mortality caused by extrinsic sources. Using this prediction, we selected six life history and ecological factors to use in a comparative analysis of longevity among 64 bat species. On average, the maximum recorded life span of a bat is 3.5 times greater than a non-flying placental mammal of similar size. Records of individuals surviving more than 30 years in the wild now exist for five species. Univariate and multivariate analyses of species data, as well as of phylogenetically independent contrasts obtained using a supertree of Chiroptera, reveal that bat life span significantly increases with hibernation, body mass and occasional cave use, but decreases with reproductive rate and is not influenced by diet, colony size or the source of the record. These results are largely consistent with extrinsic mortality risk acting as a determinant of bat longevity. Nevertheless, the strong association between life span and both reproductive rate and hibernation also suggests that bat longevity is strongly influenced by seasonal allocation of non-renewable resources to reproduction. We speculate that hibernation may provide a natural example of caloric restriction, which is known to increase longevity in other mammals. The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Nov 10 23:54:54 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:54:54 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation References: <20051110025946.18408.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com><4372FBCE.40808@sasktel.net><013601c5e5db$d50bb540$8998e03c@homepc><43738520.9000809@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <029401c5e652$25fbe8a0$8998e03c@homepc> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO writes: >> Actually I have been thinking about this for many years (over 2 decades) >> and what has to be done is to put the body into >> near hibernation state and slow metabolism to a crawl. > > Is there any evidence that animals that hibernate live longer than animals > that don't? Or that preventing an animal from hibernating shortens its > lifespan? I am not sure that the assumption that hibernation slows down > aging is necessarily true. Offhand I can't recall specific evidence. Animals that hibernate tend to be specimens of species that hibernate and cross species comparisons are not completely trivial as other variables get introduced. Steven Austad to name just one person has almost certainly done some relevant work here. I suspect that it would almost *have* to be at least slightly true that hibernation slows aging (vs the exact same animal not hibernating) from cellular biology first principles. Animals like bears, burn up stored supplies of fat during hibernation. Their cells still use energy, in the form of ATP, whether they are hibernating or not, although not as much as if the animal was running around, they just get the energy from fat stores and oxygen rather than food. One of the biggest things that causes aging at the molecular and cellular level is oxygen free radicals being produced as a by product of mitochondria going about the business of producing ATP to be used to power cells at the biochemical level. Mitochondria did not evolve in such a way that it had to care that oxygen free radicals would be produced as a by product so long as the amount of incidental molecular damage (aging from free radicals) was no so great as to affect the genes getting into the next generation. Things that affect the chances of genes getting into the next generation are selected for or against. Normal aging hasn't historically (in biological terms) been one of those things as it only became a problem when the reproducing task was out of the way. Unless grandmothers or grandparents cared enough for their descendants that their grandchildren could get some concrete edge by having them around and helpful. Old elephants may remember water sources in severe droughts etc. Hibernation seems to be a strategy adopted by some species to match their food gathering efforts with the times when food gathering is likely to be cost effective for them. When there is going to be bugger all return for effort to be had chasing food in winter it probably makes sense in terms to eat more beforehand and then live of the fat stored. Humans live of fat (or glycogen) stores while we sleep and between meals as well. Do we age slower while we sleep? I'd guest that its probably slightly slower but perhaps not all that much. Our cells (which include more than just our muscle cells) are working on stuff that cells have to do (which is more than just moving us about) almost as hard when we are relatively inactive as when we are active and so ATP is still being generated by mitochondria and free radicals are still produced as a side effect. Brett Paatsch From mail at harveynewstrom.com Fri Nov 11 00:28:25 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:28:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <20051110231735.65326.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051110231735.65326.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1800de4c7f368ae5e90e50319de03863@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Nov 10, 2005, at 6:17 PM, The Avantguardian wrote: > > > --- mail at harveynewstrom.com wrote: > >> >> Is there any evidence that animals that hibernate >> live longer than animals >> that don't? Or that preventing an animal from >> hibernating shortens its >> lifespan? I am not sure that the assumption that >> hibernation slows down >> aging is necessarily true. > > Yes. It has been shown conclusively in bats. The > abstract of the paper follows: Thanks! -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Fri Nov 11 02:34:20 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:34:20 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France Message-ID: <002f01c5e668$759e19d0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> "John K Clark" said: Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France Jack Parkinson wrote: >> No one is ever delighted at earning 7 >> cents an hour. >Quite untrue. If everyone you knew was making zero cents an hour and was 24 >hours away from starvation and you were making 7 cents an hour and was a >full 48 hours away from starvation you would feel like Rockefeller. This is not 'quite untrue.' So far as I know there is no country on earth where 7 cents an hour is sufficient to meet a person's basic needs. Yes, a desperate person will accept your 7 cents (in much the same way that drowning men are supposed to clutch at straws). However, you can be assured that they will not be delighted with you. >> There is plenty of wealth in the world. >Baloney. There is no way the wealth of the world could be divided up among >7 >billion people so everyone has a decent lifestyle, and you and I, the >pampered product of rich western culture, would be among those howling in >pain the loudest. However this need not always be true because Extropians >do >not think the economy is a zero sum game, in fact it's about as far from a >zero sum game as you can get. I didn't suggest dividing the wealth of the world. I pointed out that international aid agencies generally say that US $25 billion is adequate for basic food, water and medicine for everyone. This is not a lot of money in todays terms I think... Real equality of opportunity in education and employment would be the only other essential -people who can better themselves have some incentive to knuckle down and try. And there would suddenly be a much smaller ready-made pool of malcontents for the next wave of fundamentalist crazies to exploit in recruiting for the cause... As a strategy for conducting 'war on terror' - it may just be more effective than the one we have now. If terrorism (and rioting for that matter) are the radical extremes of massive discontent - eliminate the discontent. Jack Parkinson From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Nov 11 03:05:16 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:05:16 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <002f01c5e668$759e19d0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <02f101c5e66c$be283650$8998e03c@homepc> Jack Parkinson wrote: >>Quite untrue. If everyone you knew was making zero >> cents an hour and was 24 hours away from starvation >> and you were making 7 cents an hour and was a >>full 48 hours away from starvation you would feel like >> Rockefeller. > > This is not 'quite untrue.' So far as I know there is no country > on earth where 7 cents an hour is sufficient to meet a person's > basic needs. Yes, a desperate person will accept your 7 cents > (in much the same way that drowning men are supposed to > clutch at straws). However, you can be assured > that they will not be delighted with you. There would be relevant social psych, organisational behaviour (remuneration) data on this point. Even studies with great apes like chimps and gorillas suggest that it is not just the size of the reward (food/money) but the relativity that influences how the recipient feels about getting it. I'd give extremely long odds (and be confident I could source the research to bear that contention out and win the bet for so doing) that no one normal would be happy receiving 7 cents an hour IF they knew that others were getting substantially better paid for exactly the same job. It must be something to do with how social creatures have evolved to expect some sort of proximity to equitable treatment and to resent the hell out of its absence. What does matter however is that the inequitable treatment be seen in comparative terms order for it to be perceived as inequitable. Chimps may be happy with small rewards so long as they don't realise they are being comparatively short changed. On that point one of the first things that goes into developing countries are broadcasts from Western media showing the locals how others elsewhere are doing. Brett Paatsch From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Nov 11 03:31:03 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:31:03 -0800 Subject: Molecular manfacturing Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <20051110071554.1842.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051110071554.1842.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2005, at 11:15 PM, The Avantguardian wrote: > > > --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > > >> I think that if it were considered to be an >> imminently realizable >> threat (or promise), dead-cheap molecular >> manufacture for the >> masses would be opposed by empowered minorities as >> though >> their existing privileges, their future economic >> aspirations and >> even their lives depended on it. >> > > I think history and contemporary third world culture > definitely corraborates your assessment. There are in > nearly all cultures past and present, those who would > cling so tenaciously to power (even of the most > mediocre sort) through undermining the power of their > neighbors. Thus they view political power as > minimazation of every one elses utility function > rather than maximumization of their own. > If we so structure our governments (or lack thereof) to sufficiently restrain what "political power" can accomplish then we will be free of many such ills. Remember that "political power" is using physical force or the threat of physical force to compel obedience regardless of the choices and interests of the compelled parties. >> >> Unfortunately (I should say in my opinion here I >> guess) molecular >> manufacturing is a *double* pipe dream. >> If it were technologically possible it would be >> politically >> impossible. Then change your politics or go around the system by disseminating the technology so widely that it could not effectively be controlled. >> Contemporary humans would "Fermi >> paradox" >> themselves. Most contemporary humans (Muslims and >> Christians) >> still purport to believe and act as though this life >> is some sort of >> rehearsal for a supernatural next one. Whilst that >> is so, >> molecular nanotech would be directed towards weapons >> construction. >> Yes. > > So very tragic it is that these people believe they > are rehearsing, not realizing that they are playing > improv to a packed house for a limited engagement. > Perhaps someday, we may be able to oblige these people > out of pity, by programming virtual heaven, hell, and > paradise and uploading them into their appropriate > after-life based on the reviews they recieve from > their critics in the audience. In the meantime many of these people have equal votes to you or I as to how to use the huge power of the state to force the wills of everyone and impoverish us all quite possibly leading to our and our species destruction. I am all for tolerance of willing imbecility. But don't give the imbeciles a loaded and utterly unchecked State to play around with. - samantha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Fri Nov 11 03:32:39 2005 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:32:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> If we are considering "riots in France" as the subject line says then I suggest caution in focusing primarily on the religion of the rioters. The reason that I say this is that there are obvious counter examples. For example, I live in the Silicon Valley (San Jose specifically) and there are many Muslims here. They are not rioting and burning cars. They have jobs and families and homes just like everyone else. And they are not isolated in public housing as I read is the case in much of France. This is not say that there is no racism here in Silicon Valley and certainly there are poor people here. But there appears to be a difference in levels and concentration and in the possibility of change based on individual and family initiative. Based on what I have read a key difference is that here in the Silicon Valley there are fewer government regulations and impediments for economic dynamism as compared to France. The levels and patterns of unemployment are different between Silicon Valley and France. So you do not have young Muslim (or other) males rioting and burning cars here, instead most of them are either in school or working. And many have good jobs in the local tech industry. Thus my point is that to continually focus primarily on Muslim in the analysis of the French riots is overly simplistic. Particularly when by every report that I have read the vast majority of Muslims are not rioting. I would also like to recommend the book The Future and its Enemies by Virgina Postrel. It is a popular level look at differences between dynamism and stasis in looking at social and cultural issues. For more info see: http://www.dynamist.com/tfaie/index.html Perhaps it will help clarify the thought processes of some on this list. Fred On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 12:45 -0500, John K Clark wrote: > "Jack Parkinson" > > > Presumably, you will be impressed when this (silly riots in France) > > directly degrades the quality of yours and your families lives > > Anything that directly degrades the quality of my life or that of my family > impresses me; but a bunch of ignorant kids in France pretending to be > American gangster rappors is unlikely to do that. > > > Some of the richest countries are also Muslim. > > A few Muslim countries through a lucky geological break happen to be sitting > on top of a lake that contains 2/3 of the world's oil and so are rich, but > that hasn't stopped Nigeria, a Muslim country with lots of oil, from being > the second poorest country on Earth, beaten only by Mozambique, another > Muslim country. Continuing on our list of the poorest countries in the > world we have Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, The Congo, Bangladesh, Angola and > Afghanistan, all are predominantly Muslim countries. > > Let's look at a subset of the Muslim world, the Arabs. There are over 250 > million Arabs and they have most of the world's oil, but nevertheless the > GNP of the entire Arab world is less than that of Spain, a country with no > oil and a population of only 40 million. One reason for this may be that the > number of books translated into Arabic over the past thousand years is about > the same as the number of books translated into Spanish just last year. > > > Poverty is the root cause of discontent. > > No, if everybody is poor you're not angry, just sad. Envy is the root cause > of discontent. > > > Spoilt rich kids always praise their own benevolence > > I may be spoilt but I make no claims of benevolence, I make no claim that I > earned the right to be born in a western non Muslim culture, I was just > lucky. > > > No one is ever delighted at earning 7 > > cents an hour. > > Quite untrue. If everyone you knew was making zero cents an hour and was 24 > hours away from starvation and you were making 7 cents an hour and was a > full 48 hours away from starvation you would feel like Rockefeller. > > >They want a house with a manicured lawn, a membership of the > > golf club and an SUV. > > The people of South Korea have all that now, but 50 years ago they were on > that infamous list of the poorest countries on the planet. Things changed > when the Korean's complained about the injustice of it all so the rich > countries piled gold onto huge cargo ships and sent it to Korea until > everybody was equal. No wait, I misspoke that's not how it happened, now I > remember: The Korean workers said they'd rather not work for 7 cents an hour > and would prefer 70 dollars an hour and their employers said sure no > problem. > > Or maybe it was because the Korean people valued education in things other > than in a book of superstitions written 1500 yeas ago, and they had a very > strong work ethic, and they embraced capitalism with a vengeance. Maybe > that's why South Koreans were issued 15,000 patents over the last 20 years > while the entire Arab world had fewer than 400. > > The contrast between North and South Korea is also interesting, both started > with the same culture and the same language, but one had a tightly > controlled economy "to help the common people" and one did not. > Look at them now! > > Me: > >> would it be more moral of me to fire 99 workers out of 100 and pay the > >> remaining ones 7$ an hour > > You: > > Yes. > > Your position is indefensible morally and economically. > > Moral nonsense: > For every person I can hire there are a thousand lined up outside the gates > of my factory begging for chance to make the huge sum of 7 cents an hour; > and you, allegedly an advocate of more equality, advise me to make things > even more unequal by firing 99 out of 100 of my employs and give the > fortunate survivor the ridiculous salary of 7 dollars and hour. > > Economic nonsense: > Now that I have taken your advice my expenses are the same as before but my > output is only 1% of what is was, so I must charge 100 times more than what > I did before for my product, but at that price nobody at Wal-Mart will buy > it. Thus whatever my intentions I no longer have the money to pay my single > remaining employee 7 dollars an hour, or even 7 cents an hour, he now makes > zero cents an hour and I'm dead broke too. And this is the way to cure > world poverty? > > > There is plenty of wealth in the world. > > Baloney. There is no way the wealth of the world could be divided up among 7 > billion people so everyone has a decent lifestyle, and you and I, the > pampered product of rich western culture, would be among those howling in > pain the loudest. However this need not always be true because Extropians do > not think the economy is a zero sum game, in fact it's about as far from a > zero sum game as you can get. > > > I don't think this free market creature does exists and even doubt > > that it really can exist. > > Any particular reason? > > > Current 'free markets' are simply manipulated, tightly controlled > > strategies > > Yes, most markets are controlled by governments much more than is rational, > without that interference there would be far fewer poor people, perhaps none > at all. The freest of all free markets is the black market and that's why > it thrives. > > > to put the power and profits into corporate HQ's in the US and Europe. > > You almost make that sound like a bad thing. > > > Japan is in deep economic trouble now > > Trouble is a relative term. Japan is in economic trouble compared to the USA > perhaps, but compared with any Muslim country it most certainly is not, it > is in hog heaven because despite its difficulties Japan still has the second > largest economy in the world. > > > India is riding an economic boom > > Yes, India has improved in the last few years after it started to back away > a bit from decades of socialistic laws, regulations, and other brakes on its > economy. > > > China is likely to take the top spot as world number 1 economy within the > > next ten years > > Perhaps, but I don't see the point you're trying to make, it certainly can't > be that capitalism is a bad way to make the economy grow and the population > of a country rich. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Nov 11 04:20:06 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:20:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution In-Reply-To: <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200511110419.jAB4Jve14907@tick.javien.com> Ok Pat Robertson is warning of god's wrath: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/10/religion.robertson.reut/index.html If disaster does not befall Dover, I suppose it is our duty to warn the world of evolution's wrath. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Nov 11 04:26:00 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:26:00 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution In-Reply-To: <200511110419.jAB4Jve14907@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200511110425.jAB4Ppe15417@tick.javien.com> I wouldn't have expect to find it on Foxnews, but this article contains a reasonably good top level view of evolution. spike http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175179,00.html Behind the Controversy: How Evolution Works Thursday, November 10, 2005 By Ker Than A Kansas Board of Education decision essentially brings supernatural explanations into biology classes. Meanwhile, residents of a town in Pennsylvania ousted school board members who tried to do the same. Mainstream scientists see no controversy. Evolution is well supported by many examples of changes in various species leading to the diversity of life seen today. But others would invoke a higher being as a designer to explain the complex world of living things, especially such specimens as humans. Even the Vatican has weighed in. Last week a cardinal told the faithful to pay attention to scientific reason or risk returning to fundamentalism. So just what is evolution, and how does it work? Chapter 1 In the first edition of "The Origin of Species" in 1859, Charles Darwin speculated about how natural selection could cause a land mammal to turn into a whale. As a hypothetical example, Darwin used North American black bears, which were known to catch insects by swimming in the water with their mouths open. "I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more aquatic in their structure and habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale," he speculated. The idea didn't go over very well with the public. Darwin was so embarrassed by the ridicule he received that the swimming-bear passage was removed from later editions of the book. Scientists now know that Darwin had the right idea but the wrong animal: Instead of looking at bears, he should have instead been looking at cows and hippopotamuses. The story of the origin of whales is one of evolution's most fascinating tales and one of the best examples scientists have of natural selection. Natural selection Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection is one of the best substantiated theories in the history of science, supported by evidence from a wide variety of scientific disciplines, including paleontology, geology, genetics and developmental biology. To understand the origin of whales, it's necessary to have a basic understanding of how natural selection works. It is the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in inheritable physical or behavioral traits. Changes that allow an organism to better adapt to its environment will help it survive and have more offspring. Natural selection can change a species in small ways, causing a population to change color or size over the course of several generations. This is called "microevolution." But natural selection is also capable of much more. Given enough time and enough accumulated changes, natural selection can create entirely new species. It can turn dinosaurs into birds, apes into humans and amphibious mammals into whales. Mutations The physical and behavioral changes that make natural selection possible happen at the level of DNA and genes. Such changes are called "mutations." Mutations can be caused by chemical or radiation damage or errors in DNA replication. Mutations can even be deliberately induced in order to adapt to a rapidly changing environment. Most times, mutations are either harmful or neutral, but in rare instances, a mutation might prove beneficial to the organism. If so, it will become more prevalent in the next generation and spread throughout the population. In this way, natural selection guides the evolutionary process, preserving and adding up the beneficial mutations and rejecting the bad ones. How whales took to water Using evolution as their guide and knowing how natural selection works, biologists knew that the transition of early whales from land to water occurred in a series of predictable steps. The evolution of the blowhole, for example, might have happened in the following way. Random mutations resulted in at least one whale having its nostrils placed farther back on its head. Those animals with this adaptation would have been better suited to a marine lifestyle, since they would not have had to completely surface to breathe. Such animals would have been more successful and had more offspring. In later generations, more mutations occurred, moving the nose farther back on the head. Other body parts of early whales also changed. Front legs became flippers. Back legs disappeared. Their bodies became more streamlined and they developed tail flukes to better propel themselves through water. Even though scientists could predict what early whales should look like, they lacked the fossil evidence to back up their claim. Creationists took this absence as proof that evolution didn't occur. They mocked the idea that there could have ever been such a thing as a walking whale. But since the early 1990s, that's exactly what scientists have been finding. The smoking gun came in 1994, when paleontologists found the fossilized remains of Ambulocetus natans, an animal whose name literally means "swimming-walking whale." Its forelimbs had fingers and small hooves, but its hind feet were enormous given its size. It was clearly adapted for swimming, but it was also capable of moving clumsily on land, much like a seal. When it swam, it moved like an otter, pushing back with its hind feet and undulating its spine and tail. Modern whales propel themselves through the water with powerful beats of their horizontal tail flukes, but Ambulocetus still had a whip-like tail and had to use its legs to provide most of the propulsive force needed to move through water. Copyright C 2005 Imaginova Corp. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Fri Nov 11 05:38:28 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:38:28 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <002f01c5e668$759e19d0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <02f101c5e66c$be283650$8998e03c@homepc> Message-ID: <007401c5e682$264f8610$0201a8c0@JPAcer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Paatsch" To: "Jack Parkinson" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France > Jack Parkinson wrote: > >>>Quite untrue. If everyone you knew was making zero >>> cents an hour and was 24 hours away from starvation >>> and you were making 7 cents an hour and was a >>>full 48 hours away from starvation you would feel like Rockefeller. >> >> This is not 'quite untrue.' So far as I know there is no country >> on earth where 7 cents an hour is sufficient to meet a person's >> basic needs. Yes, a desperate person will accept your 7 cents >> (in much the same way that drowning men are supposed to >> clutch at straws). However, you can be assured that they will not be >> delighted with you. > > There would be relevant social psych, organisational behaviour > (remuneration) data on this point. Even studies with great > apes like chimps and gorillas suggest that it is not just the > size of the reward (food/money) but the relativity that > influences how the recipient feels about getting it. > I'd give extremely long odds (and be confident I could source > the research to bear that contention out and win the bet for > so doing) that no one normal would be happy receiving 7 cents > an hour IF they knew that others were getting substantially better paid > for exactly the same job. > It must be something to do with how social creatures have evolved to > expect some sort of proximity to equitable treatment and to resent the > hell out of its absence. > > What does matter however is that the inequitable treatment > be seen in comparative terms order for it to be perceived as > inequitable. Chimps may be happy with small rewards so long as they don't > realise they are being comparatively short > changed. On that point one of the first things that goes into > developing countries are broadcasts from Western media > showing the locals how others elsewhere are doing. > Brett Paatsch Yes. Those are all points I would entirely agree with. Inequitable treatment must be seen in comparative terms in order for it to be perceived as inequitable. And it doesn't take a genius to work out just how equitable 7 cents an hour is. People who migrate to Europe/US because they are told they will earn twice as much or even four times as much, often fail to realise that their lives will be perhaps four or five times as expensive. They have stars in their eyes! An illustration of this is an email I received only this week from a Chinese ex-colleague of mine working in New York. Here in China, she earned a professional salary of just $233 (Australian dollars - say $175 US) per month. After just three weeks in the US she has a job working (natuarally!) in a Chinese restaurant. She told me she is "over the moon' because she nows earns over $600 (US) per month. Given that she is working until almost midnight 6 days a week - I wonder how long that euphoria will last? Admittedly - I know little about wage scales in New York - but it didn't sound too enticing to me. The other factor is that here - she is a professional. In New York - she is a skivvy, doing menial and essentially meaningless work. On the plus side, being intelligent, young and good-looking, she'll probably marry a stock broker and make good that way - unfortunately not an option open to all... Jack Parkinson From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Nov 11 06:22:32 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:22:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version In-Reply-To: <20051108193837.4970157F2F@finney.org> Message-ID: <20051111062232.40170.qmail@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > Some of the > advice > in the proposed document amounts to creating inside-type forecasts, > i.e. setting up scenarios, looking at probable outcomes, and making > decisions on that basis. The paper we discussed last month shows > that > this forecasting methodology is not very good, unfortunately. It is > prone to cognitive biases of many kinds. > > Unfortunately it is not clear whether there is a better alternative > for predicting the future. Practical optimism: use what there is. Try to make it work for the best, but don't pine for what doesn't exist, unless you can help make it exist. From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Nov 11 07:19:45 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:19:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com><006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001901c5e690$4b97b600$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Fred C. Moulton" > If we are considering "riots in France" as the subject line says then I > suggest caution in focusing primarily on the religion of the rioters. .... I've suspected something like this was going on, as well: Cameras capture racist taunts of anti-riot police: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1865533,00.html Olga From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Nov 11 08:04:35 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:04:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouraged on almost-final version In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051108093417.04db8cd8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051111080435.74508.qmail@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Having delved into the minds of certain types of folk perhaps a bit too much, let me see how I could twist and warp this against its intent - with the disclaimer that I'm an amateur compared to the types who will try just that in the real world... --- Max More wrote: > 1. Guard the Freedom to Innovate: Our freedom to innovate > technologically is valuable to humanity. The burden of proof > therefore belongs to those who propose restrictive measures. All > proposed measures should be closely scrutinized. So...measures to _restrict_ my freedom to sue technology developers on made-up whims should be harder to pass too? (Therefore suggest: "...those who propose measures to restrict new technologies.") > 2. Use Objective Methods: Use a decision process that is > objective, structured, and explicit. Evaluate risks and generate > forecasts according to available science, not emotionally shaped > perceptions; use explicit forecasting processes; fully disclose the > forecasting procedure; ensure that the information and decision > procedures are objective; rigorously structure the inputs to the > forecasting procedure; reduce biases by selecting disinterested > experts, by using the devil's advocate procedure with judgmental > methods, and by using auditing procedures such as review panels. "We believe that history will repeat, and that humans will still be fated to die. We predict that the elimination of death will, given the provably finite resources of Earth (if we forget to account for greater resource collection/production that more hands can result in), lead to great suffering." You might want to put in something about paying attention to *all* of the data, rather than selecting the data that the forecasts use based on convenience or to shape the intended outcome. (Number 3, "Be Comprehensive", speaks to considering the full set of reasonable alternative actions, but not to considering all the data.) > 3. Be Comprehensive: Consider all reasonable alternative > actions, including no action. Estimate the opportunities lost by > abandoning a technology, and take into account the costs and risks of > substituting other credible options. When making these estimates, use > systems thinking to carefully consider not only concentrated and > immediate effects, but also widely distributed and follow-on effects, > as well as the interaction of the factor under consideration with > other factors. "But have you done a full and complete analysis of what happens if we pay the clean-up workers $9.99 an hour rather than $10? What about $10.01? How do you know it'll be an insignificant effect if you haven't analyzed it? No, I'm afraid we can not consider your proposal without a full and detailed study of each wage level from $5 to $15, and include the half-cent-per-hour variations too!" You might want something about being comprehensive without descending into analysis paralysis. > 4. Be Open: Take into account the interests of all potentially > affected parties, and keep the process open to input from those > parties. "But...but...what about the fuzzy creatures? Who'll speak for the fuzzy creatures who we know in our hearts hate all development, just like we do?" -or- "How dare you suggest that my ethnic cleansing campaign is immoral?!? The people of my country will not stand your imperialism. Even if they are currently attempting yet another revolution to overthrow my regime and bring in your foreign ways." Suggest something like: "...open to direct input from those parties. If they are unable to speak for themselves, make sure that anyone who claims to be their representative actually represents them." There's probably a better way to say it. > 5. Simplify: Use methods that are no more complex than necessary You simplified out the period at the end of this one. ;) On a more substantive note, "nothing" is often considered the simplest possible method, including neoluddite know-nothing do-nothing change-nothing. Perhaps instead: "Use methods that are no more complex than necessary, while still following the other principles." > 6. Prioritize and Triage: When choosing among measures to > ameliorate unwanted side effects, prioritize decision criteria as > follows: (a) Give priority to risks to human and other intelligent > life over risks to other species; (b) give non-lethal threats to > human health priority over threats limited to the environment (within > reasonable limits); (c) give priority to immediate threats over > distant threats; (d) give priority to ameliorating known and proven > threats to human health and environmental quality over hypothetical > risks; (e) prefer the measure with the highest expectation value by > giving priority to more certain over less certain threats, and to > irreversible or persistent impacts over transient impacts. "Nuclear war is a potentially immediate, proven risk to all human life on the planet. It won't be a threat after we do it, so let's get it over with." -or- "Nuclear war is a potentially immediate, proven risk to all human life on the planet. So it is our duty to go destroy all nuclear weapons right now, rather than to clean up this oil spill we're standing right next to." -or- "I can guarantee the immortality of every member of this funding committee and everyone you care about, at least those who live long enough for me to complete my work. You're all expected to die within 5 years, right? No, I was just wondering. I'll need 10 years of guaranteed funding. Yes, I know people call my work 'crackpot' and say it would never work, but who else is promising what I promise? Oh, this session is sealed, so you're the only ones who'll know I promised a schedule, right?" Suggest: "(a) Give priority to reducing or eliminating risks...", and similar for b and c. Also suggest: "(e) prefer the measure with the highest expectation value by giving priority to more certain over less certain threats, to irreversible or persistent impacts over transient impacts, and to proposals that are more likely to actually be accomplished with the requested resources." > 7. Apply Measures Proportionally: Consider restrictive measures > only if the potential impact of an activity has both significant > probability and severity. In such cases, if the activity also > generates benefits, discount the impacts according to the feasibility > of adapting to the adverse effects. If measures to limit > technological advance do appear justified, ensure that the extent of > those measures is proportionate to the extent of the probable > effects. "OMGZ SOME NANOSTUFF IS TOXIC SO WE'VE GOT TO BAN EVERY KIND OF NANOTECH!!!111!!111oneoneone" - rough paraphrase of certain calls that were made approximately two years ago, in response to a certain study. Suggest: "If measures to limit technological advance do appear justified, ensure that the extent of those measures is proportionate to the extent of the probable effects, and limited to the specific technologies which justified the measure, rather than affecting related technologies which do not share the negative impact in question." Also suggest: "...only if the potential negative impact..." since, in general, "protecting" against positive impact is rarely justified if it truly is a positive impact (even though certain types would prefer most peoples' lot not to improve). > 8. Respect Tradeoffs: Recognize and respect the diversity of > values among people, as well as the different weights they place on > shared values. Whenever feasible, enable people to make tradeoffs. "It's good for you. Honest. But we'll let you make a tradeoff: you can trust us and take it, or be labelled a non-team-player/dissenter/non-patriot." -or- "Well...it doesn't cost me anything to give them this info I've been collecting about them without their knowledge, but I'm supposed to make them trade something off, so I should make them pay for access to their own data." Suggest: "...enable people to make reasonable, informed tradeoffs and other decisions, with enough information to weight that which is being traded off according to their own values." Also suggest titling it "Respect Other Peoples' Values", to reduce the emphasis on tradeoffs. > 9. Treat Symmetrically: Treat technological risks on the same > basis as natural risks; avoid underweighting natural risks and > overweighting human-technological risks. Fully account for the > benefits of technological advances. Suggest: "Fully account for the probable benefits of technological advances." > 10. Renew (Revisit) and Refresh: Create a trigger to prompt > decision makers to revisit the decision, far enough in the future > that conditions may have changed significantly. "We just implemented something we thought up last night, in reaction to the public panic of the week. Let's revisit it in a thousand years." Suggest something like: "...changed significantly, but soon enough as to be able to react to at least the initial impact." Again, there's probably a better way to phrase it. I hope these comments are of use. Again, there will probably be more profound misinterpretations (deliberate or otherwise) of this nature once this is published, but probing for possible openings and patching the holes thus found should diminish those. From femmechakra at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 09:08:51 2005 From: femmechakra at hotmail.com (Anna Tylor) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:08:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out In-Reply-To: <4371179E.9060504@pobox.com> Message-ID: A model of mind-body is proposed: a potential ideal of computational leverage Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties of the universe (such as space, time, and number of dimensions) derived from modern physics consistency arguments. The ideal solution for unlimited intelligence would require a sparse, high dimensional spacetime (unrestricted locality) and a formalized observer mechanism (mobile observer framework based on a superset of inertial frame properties). This solution simultaneously addresses the semantical issue of unrestricted locality by maintaining a space/time metric but by going beyond the non-locality constraints of 4D physical implementation layers. A nonphysical mind really does exist: It should be amenable to study in the same fashion as other physical theories that deal with indirectly observable phenomena. Since humans are intelligent as well as conscious, they can predict computational theory to the key, requirement for a solution to the mind-brain puzzle. Such a theory must address the representational issue of information versus knowledge (or knowing). The problems.... vision and language, dynamic motion control, and cryptography, far exceed any conventional computing machine ability. Future scalability lrestrict's how to powerfullly design or build. The reasons: ordinary human intelligence may be a prerequisite to understanding consciousness. These strategies for providing extraordinary computing resources might also provide insight concerning computational processes with properties suitable for consciousness. It is possible that systems that exhibit the self organization required for human "real intelligence" (nothing artificial about it), may exhibit consciousness. Physics must ultimately develop a solution for human "real intelligence", because it represents an evolutionary, complexity increasing informational process. This process must not violate what physicists know about the evolution of the complexity of the universe. The question: Consistency frameworks form the physical foundation for multiple observational viewpoints or different "Points of View". Formally defining the interaction between the observer and the "action or thing being observed" is part of understanding the observation process. Historically, scientists have prided themselves in their belief that true science occurs when the observer does not participate or disturb an act of measurement. Unfortunately, quantum physics measurements depend on how a question is asked or what question is asked. If an experiment asks particle questions then the results are particle answers. If an experiment asks wave questions then the results are wave answers. Likewise in relativity, asking how much "energy" is in a system is dependent on the observer's velocity and acceleration. The main idea stated in Einstein's relativity: principle was that "all inertial frames are totally equivalent for the performance of all physical experiments."[18] In other words, no matter where you are in space or what speed you are traveling, the laws of physics must be the same. The laws define the possibility that all actions as well as the process of observing those actions are from any vantage point. One major outcome from relativity was experimental proof that the speed of light is constant no matter how you measure it, and no matter what speed you are traveling. In fact, mass, energy, distance, and time have changing values depending on one's speed. Facts: 1) Consistency is more primitive than conservation laws of energy/mass, or space and time 2) Consistency requires light to follow locally "straight line" geodesics (curved spacetime) 3) Consistency mechanisms behave as superluminal synchronization primitives 4) Consistency mechanisms interact outside normal excluding illegal time loops 5) Increased dimensionality increases degrees of freedom 6) These ideas appeal to researchers studying the mind and consciousness because certain biological[20], psychological[21], parapsychological[22], and meditative research[23] strongly suggest that these properties are exhibited by the mind. An interesting point to note concerning computational leverage mechanisms is that they deal with cosmological issues such as the framework of spacetime and the structure of the universe, and are thus, "outside the box" of what is normal day-to-day physics. This is not surprising given that the evolution of the mind (both collectively and individually) deals with many of the same issues (information, complexity, and energy) as the evolution of the universe. Conclusion: Modern physics theories that are based on observer consistency arguments have already defined many possible avenues for computational leverage based on indirect measurement and extraordinary views of space and time. These models of sparse hyperspacetime form a consistency backdrop for all possible events and all possible observer interactions. Consciousness may be a direct consequence of a dualist model of the mind-brain based on these consistency and computational leverage mechanisms. If the dualist model of the mind exists outside normal spacetime, then the mind is akin to a "Godel machine" that is capable of stepping outside of our normal spacetime limits. So.Yudkowsky.. A model of mind-body is proposed: from femmechakra what do u think? This is my first publication..i really have no idea what i'm talking about!..lol I just want an opinion _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Fri Nov 11 12:50:26 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:50:26 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Damien Broderick swrote: At 11:21 AM 11/10/2005 +0800, Jack Parkinson wrote: >>Spoilt rich kids always praise their own benevolence when they hand out >>their loose change. The hot news is: No one is ever delighted at earning 7 >>cents an hour. They want a house with a manicured lawn, a membership of >>the golf club and an SUV. When they see someone like you buying and >>enjoying these little luxuries with the money they have earned you - they >>start thinking about torching cars and burning shops... >Jack, the odd thing is that probably every Aussie on this list shares your >basic perspective, while it remains bizarre and wrong-headed to most of the >US extropes. Hard to say why that is; we are not *utterly* slaves of our >nations' economics dogmas. I can't claim to represent all Aussies. In fact I was born in England, but have spent less than half my life there. I've lived in England, Australia, France, India and China - but I do find the unrelentingly conservative/capitalist approach that admits of no possibility of alternatives just way too prevalent in many communications from the US. I'm not even saying that it is totally wrong. Just that, to me at least - it seems a one-eyed view of reality. Even when it is right - it lacks empathy and a balanced appreciation of the factors that might influence dissent. >On the other hand, you're overstating your case just a tad. Rioters in >France aren't living on 7 cents an hour, and I doubt many of them are >earning the bourgeoisie their SUVs--it's exactly because there's no obvious >route to decent work that they go crazy with rage. Their parents, >generally, were imported as a dirt cheap labor pool--as many Europeans were >to Oz in the 50s--and technological/ educational shifts, plus pervasive and >fearful disdain from the haves, leave their kids with few prospects, even >as they watch endless TV shows, movies and games that goad them with >visions of wealth, ease, fun, and mayhem. My wife Barbara tells me DeSoto >and Thomas Sowell have much to say on the cultural backgrounds to these >topics, but the problems seem to me almost intractable by now. You are quite right. The 7 cents argument is not applicable to the French situation, this notion of 'absolute minimum wages' began as a generalization on catalysts of social discontent world-wide. French legal minimum wages would not allow this situation to ever arise. However the French have other ways of excluding the underclass - the rioters are 'inexpulsables' people who cannot be legally deported from France - but also people who are not wanted except as a potential labor pool willing (desperate enough) to work for less than the legal wage. These are the guys who sell necklaces and other cheap jewelry around the tourist sites, and are the barmen, bellhops, cleaners, waiters and other drudge workers if they are lucky enough to be not actually unemployable - at which point they either surrender to apathy or become pimps, pushers, prostitutes or gangsters according to their potential. They are easily radicalized and manipulated entirely because they are without hope and have nothing to lose. >Maybe dead-cheap molecular manufacture will end such strife, but I stand by >my .gloomy prediction in THE SPIKE a decade or so back that what we'll see is a >planet of Color Gang Wars and the like among those for whom life retains no >discipline or meaning outside of arbitrary local status and violence. Damien Broderick Dead cheap molecular manufacturing could end such strife - in the right hands (that is - everyone's hands) But, if and when it arrives - it's deliberate restriction to a privileged few could also give us strife we never before considered even possible. Unfortunately - I share your gloomy outlook. Jack Parkinson From riel at surriel.com Fri Nov 11 12:57:33 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:57:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] even if Arab poverty were terminated In-Reply-To: <20051110194714.93152.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051110194714.93152.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Al Brooks wrote: > Of course ending poverty wouldn't hurt at all, but you can see in > Western nations that fundamentalist xians and orthodox jews becoming > wealthy does not substantially alter their extreme religious views. However, in a more wealthy society the extremists are much more isolated from the moderate masses. Poverty and despair makes it easy for the extremists to convince people to give up their lives for the "good cause". -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 13:19:59 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:19:59 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 11/11/05, Fred C. Moulton wrote: > > > If we are considering "riots in France" as the subject line says then I > suggest caution in focusing primarily on the religion of the rioters. > The reason that I say this is that there are obvious counter examples. > > For example, I live in the Silicon Valley (San Jose specifically) and > there are many Muslims here. They are not rioting and burning cars. > They have jobs and families and homes just like everyone else. And they > are not isolated in public housing as I read is the case in much of > France. This is not say that there is no racism here in Silicon Valley All that means is that they haven't reached the critical mass that makes self segregation and non-integration feasible. Try importing half a million, nostly unskilled non English speakers, in the space of less than 20yrs and see what happens. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Fri Nov 11 13:46:47 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:46:47 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <004a01c5e6c6$63a3f610$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Dirk Bruere wrote: November 10, 2005 5:11 PM >Well, what I *do* blame every Moslem, Communist, Fascist and Xian for is >propagating a vile >ideology opposed to almost everything I believe in. >The fewer of them the better. >Dirk Wonderfully persuasive logic there - 'my way or the die way.' If you had the power Dirk, you could just shunt them off to your Gulag to rot. Entirely in the interests of righteousness of course - nothing dodgy - these people ARE having impure thoughts... Jack Parkinson P.S. Xian? From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Fri Nov 11 14:05:26 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:05:26 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: even if Arab poverty were terminated References: <200511111320.jABDKee06122@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <006501c5e6c8$f9289040$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Al Brooks said: Subject: [extropy-chat] even if Arab poverty were terminated To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Message-ID: <20051110194714.93152.qmail at web51605.mail.yahoo.com> >If poverty were to be terminated in Arab nations, Arabs would still go to >war. The koran was >written in the 7th century, so for over 1,300 years >Arabs have beem reading advice such as to lie >in wait for infidels & jews >to ambush them at every opportunity. To attack the enemies of Islam is >an >unambiguous part of the radical Arab heritage, and though radical Arab >nationalists constitute >only a small fraction of Arabs, sympathy for >radicals is not inconsiderable. >Of course ending poverty wouldn't hurt at all, but you can see in Western >nations that >fundamentalist xians and orthodox jews becoming wealthy does >not substantially alter their >extreme religious views. I find the timescale quite interesting. Islam is in its 13th century. What was Christianity doing in that period? Militant crusades, repression with extreme violence and laying the groundwork for the inquisition. Becoming wealthy does not alter the views of extreme pro-lifers now either. Jack Parkinson From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Fri Nov 11 15:32:09 2005 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:32:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ARTS: Night Drawings Message-ID: <380-220051151115329937@M2W126.mail2web.com> Drawings in the Night http://www.turbulence.org/blog/archives/001717.html "With GeoDrawing, a GPS-based mobile drawing game for the Amsterdam Museum Night, "teams would go into the city where they compete on who would (geo)draw the most beautiful ?g8?? by walking with a GPS and a mobile phone. They could embellish their drawings with photo?fs and video?fs taken and submitted on the spot. The competitive element was creativity with both the drawing and the media. All submitted media were tagged to the geographic locations where they were taken. The player?fs movements, tracks and media could be followed in real-time through a webbrowser." [via pasta and vinegar]" Create! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Fri Nov 11 15:32:35 2005 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:32:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ARTS: Music To Your Eyes Message-ID: <380-2200511511153235562@M2W065.mail2web.com> Music to Your Eyes "Before the advent of recording technology, listening to music was a very visual experience, as musicians and their audiences tended to occupy the same time and space. Christian Marclay's work often reintroduces us to the visual pleasures of music, in the form of images, sculpture, and video installations. Tonight at New York's Eyebeam, the artist presents Screen Play, a 'moving image musical score in which Marclay has combined found film footage with computer animation to create a visual projection to be interpreted by live musicians.' Members of three ensembles will respond sonically to Marclay's visual cues. Presented in conjunction with the Performa 05 Performance Art Biennial, the piece may be a mouthful to describe, but promises to deliver playful layer upon layer of performativity. Publicized stills from the piece hint at a meditation on the relationship between composing and programming while, in some ways, Marclay is really engaged in a de-composition and breaking-down of visual texts. Ironically, much of the computer animation comprising the 'video score' in Screen Play looks like the graphic imagery in old computer games. With pictures worth a thousand notes, this high 'score' will surely take your eyes and ears to the bonus round." - Marisa Olson http://eyebeam.org/engage/engage.php?page=unique&id=83 Create! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mail at harveynewstrom.com Fri Nov 11 16:24:48 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:24:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution In-Reply-To: <200511110419.jAB4Jve14907@tick.javien.com> References: <200511110419.jAB4Jve14907@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:20 PM, spike wrote: > > Ok Pat Robertson is warning of god's wrath: > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/10/religion.robertson.reut/index.html Pat Robertson also says that hurricanes are God's way of attacking Florida for tolerating gays. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From jonkc at att.net Fri Nov 11 16:52:10 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:52:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <007101c5e6e0$60397c10$75084e0c@MyComputer> "Jack Parkinson" > there is no country on earth where 7 cents an hour > is sufficient to meet a person's basic needs. That is true, it is also true that is no country on earth where 7 cents an hour will not get you closer to fulfilling a person's basic needs than ZERO cents an hour. You claim to be a great friend of the poor but you say I should fire 99 out of 100 of my employees and give all their salary to the survivor. You say Wal-Mart and its customers are villainous for encouraging sweat shops, so let me propose a little experiment; go to Bangladesh or some other such hellhole and tell a worker there that you are lobbying to have sweat shops such as his shut down and see if he really thinks of you as a friend. On second thought it would be better not to go there personally because they will try to lynch you. > I didn't suggest dividing the wealth of the world. Well why not?! You said before that there was already PLENTY of wealth in the world and that the only problem was that rich people were just too stingy, I said the basic problem was there was not enough wealth in the world and we should concentrate on making the pie bigger not squabble about how to cut it up; are you conceding that I was right and you were wrong? > $25 billion is adequate for basic food, water and medicine for everyone. > This is not a lot of money Forget 25, 250 billion couldn't provide just medicine for 300 million Americans for just one year, much less food AND water AND medicine AND for all 7 billion people on the planet. However I have nothing against charity, I think it's fine, but to suggest that's all that is needed to solve the problem is crazy. World poverty will be eliminated someday and probably sooner than most people think, but when a full accounting of that glorious achievement is made charity will amount to little more than a rounding error. > If terrorism (and rioting for that matter) are the radical extremes of > massive discontent - eliminate the discontent. Making nice to Islam will not reduce their anger one iota because the root cause of that anger is not any specific action committed by the west. They are angry at us for what we are not what we did. They would be less angry if the foundation of the west was dogma, even some dogma they didn't like, instead it is based on free markets and pragmatic problem solving (the scientific method) and that frightens and angers them. They would be less angry if our system just didn't work very well, but we're rich free and powerful and they are poor oppressed and weak. 800 years ago Islam was the most advanced civilization on Earth but its been straight downhill since, today they are not even second or third but dead last; we have the word of The Profit so it can't be our fault, it must be due to those evil westerners, our only mistake was embracing too many new 16'th century ideas, we should go back to the good old 13'th century ideas. John K Clark From jonkc at att.net Fri Nov 11 17:25:27 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:25:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com><006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer><1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <00bf01c5e6e4$f2031f30$75084e0c@MyComputer> "Jack Parkinson" Wrote: > there is no country on earth where 7 cents an hour > is sufficient to meet a person's basic needs. That is true, it is also true that is no country on earth where 7 cents an hour will not get you closer to fulfilling a person's basic needs than ZERO cents an hour. You claim to be a great friend of the poor but you say I should fire 99 out of 100 of my employees and give all their salary to the survivor. You say Wal-Mart and its customers are villainous for encouraging sweat shops, so let me propose a little experiment; go to Bangladesh or some other such hellhole and tell a worker there that you are lobbying to have sweat shops such as his shut down and see if he really thinks of you as a friend. On second thought it would be better not to go there personally because they will try to lynch you. > I didn't suggest dividing the wealth of the world. Well why not?! You said before that there was already PLENTY of wealth in the world and that the only problem was that rich people were just too stingy, I said the basic problem was there was not enough wealth in the world and we should concentrate on making the pie bigger not squabble about how to cut it up; are you conceding that I was right and you were wrong? > $25 billion is adequate for basic food, water and medicine for everyone. > This is not a lot of money Forget 25, 250 billion couldn't provide just medicine for 300 million Americans for just one year, much less food AND water AND medicine AND for all 7 billion people on the planet. However I have nothing against charity, I think it's fine, but to suggest that's all that is needed to solve the problem is crazy. World poverty will be eliminated someday and probably sooner than most people think, but when a full accounting of that glorious achievement is made charity will amount to little more than a rounding error. > If terrorism (and rioting for that matter) are the radical extremes of > massive discontent - eliminate the discontent. Making nice to Islam will not reduce their anger one iota because the root cause of that anger is not any specific action committed by the west. They are angry at us for what we are not what we did. They would be less angry if the foundation of the west was dogma, even some dogma they didn't like, instead it is based on free markets and pragmatic problem solving (the scientific method) and that frightens and angers them. They would be less angry if our system just didn't work very well, but we're rich free and powerful and they are poor oppressed and weak. 800 years ago Islam was the most advanced civilization on Earth but its been straight downhill since, today they are not even second or third but dead last; we have the word of The Profit so it can't be our fault, it must be due to those evil westerners, our only mistake was embracing too many new 16'th century ideas, we should go back to the good old 13'th century ideas. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Nov 11 18:30:09 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:30:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051111183009.33827.qmail@web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Anna Tylor wrote: > This is my first publication..i really have no idea what i'm talking > about!..lol > I just want an opinion I think it would help clarify your thinking if you used more formal language. One of the reasons formal language is, in fact, widely used for these types of things is because it helps people clarify complex thoughts - both for their own benefit, and to help communicate those thoughts to other people. (Having great ideas is of little use if no one else understands them. It is a fact of life, fair or unfair, that the burden of getting others to understand your thoughts falls more on you than on anyone else, because only you truly control how you express your thoughts.) For example: > A model of mind-body is proposed: a potential ideal of > computational leverage Lose the colons. You're using them to denote association, but it is better to explicitly state what the association is. Also, note the object that performs any action. In this case, you might want: "I propose a model of mind-body. It is a potential ideal of computational leverage." Once you have it in that form, you can more easily see where more detail can be added (adding detail being one of the things that will help clarify your thoughts), or simply restate your thoughts more directly. For example: "I propose a model of the mind-body relationship. Accurately modelling that relationship can help turn mere computation into true artificial intelligence." > Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties > of the universe (such as space, time, and number of > dimensions) derived from modern physics consistency > arguments. Again, formal language: "Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties of the universe (such as space, time, and number of dimensions) are derived from modern physics consistency arguments." That second "are" can make more difference than it seems at first. And so forth throughout the document. From jonkc at att.net Fri Nov 11 18:37:25 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:37:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com><006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer><1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> I came across an interesting statistic, the average resident of Mozambique makes about 80$ A YEAR. I'm sure they work one hell of a lot longer than 40 hours a week to survive but even at that figure my 7 cents an hour would be enough to push a person into the upper middle class, if Mozambique had a middle class. They don't. I figure they must be making about 4 cents an hour now, so all you have to do to win the argument and make me concede that I am a villain for paying 7 cents an hour is to prove mathematically that 4 is greater than 7. John K Clark From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 11 18:50:12 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:50:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] should she or shouldn't she Message-ID: Hi Folks, Some of you who have thought of novel Transhuman approaches to aiding the professional women's dilemma of managing career and kids can go to this blog and add your input: http://cosmicvariance.com/2005/11/10/should-she-or-shouldnt-she/ It is the usual story, but I know that there exists a few technological aids here and on the horizon and so I gave one of my favorite partial-solutions (freezing eggs). I think that it is useful for you folks to hear some of the concerns and they are the type of people that would be open to new approaches. (and ... by the way, the participants of this blog are among the highest densities of scientific women I've seen so far on the Web.) Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." --Anais Nin From megao at sasktel.net Fri Nov 11 20:08:47 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:08:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <4374FA4F.6060701@sasktel.net> The fact is that until automation can replace all those 7 cent/hr or even 1 dollar/hour salaries the root cause of social unrest will not cease. Not that people ever will get enough, but middle class have different ways of displaying dissatisfaction than truly destitute slaves. With the increases in energy cost inputs , the slaves are more valuable than ever to the industrial world and there is the ethical conundrum. Total control and total domination of those able to create value in sweatshops to maximize global value chains OR Investing into the means to bring the lowest human condition base standard of living up to middle class to prevent the massive waste of resources a revolt of underclass creates. MFJ John K Clark wrote: > I came across an interesting statistic, the average resident of > Mozambique > makes about 80$ A YEAR. I'm sure they work one hell of a lot longer > than 40 > hours a week to survive but even at that figure my 7 cents an hour > would be > enough to push a person into the upper middle class, if Mozambique had a > middle class. They don't. I figure they must be making about 4 cents an > hour now, so all you have to do to win the argument and make me > concede that > I am a villain for paying 7 cents an hour is to prove mathematically > that 4 is greater than 7. > > John K Clark > > > From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Nov 11 20:14:46 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:14:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution In-Reply-To: <200511110419.jAB4Jve14907@tick.javien.com> References: <200511110419.jAB4Jve14907@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <63AA0AA1-5C31-4672-81D5-1890FEF27210@mac.com> Pat Robertson is the Anti-Christ. No, really. Almost everything out the man's mouth is 180 degrees off gospel. Perhaps he should receive the remedy he proposed for the leader of Venezuela. - s On Nov 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, spike wrote: > > Ok Pat Robertson is warning of god's wrath: > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/10/religion.robertson.reut/index.html > > > If disaster does not befall Dover, I suppose it is > our duty to warn the world of evolution's wrath. > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From max at maxmore.com Fri Nov 11 20:34:54 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:34:54 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Monsanto's genetically-modified revival Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051111143340.050087c8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> For those who didn't read the article in Business 2.0, here's my commentary: Betting the Farm by Eric Schonfeld Business 2.0, 08/25/2005 http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreCO.aspx?coid=CO10170513354888 Over the last five years, Monsanto has repeatedly shown up in business writing as a cautionary tale-of how not to engage stakeholders or how not to plan for opposition. The next five years may see a very different treatment. After having been a strong and steady corporate presence in the USA since 1901, Monsanto lost $1.7 billion in 2002 following relentless attacks from critics of genetically engineered crops compounded by operational mistakes. In 2005, however, the company's seeds and genomics division is projected to earn $580 million on sales of $2.7 billion, which means the company will be making more profit from its biotech products than from its traditional products. In addition, the company's share price has doubled in the past 12 months. According to Erick Schonfeld, Monsanto's revival is a tale of nervy corporate decision-making, perseverance, and dazzling scientific achievement. Monsanto is directing 80 percent of its research money into its biotech seeds, while competitors such as DuPont and Bayer remain heavily focused on chemicals. This high-risk strategy could kill the company if something goes wrong with GM crops, but the potential upside is enormous too. Opposition in Europe to GM (genetically modified) crops remains strong, but is much weaker in the USA. The rest of the world looks increasingly promising, as exemplified by Brazil, where the government finally authorized sales of Monsanto soybeans earlier in 2005. Monsanto is using a new technique called molecular breeding to speed up the long and difficult process of genetically engineering plants to develop a single, specific, and inheritable trait. This approach can cut the necessary investment of time from ten years to three. Among the potential blockbusters under development are drought-resistant corn, nitrogen-absorbing corn, soybeans that produce heart-healthy omega-3 fatty acids, and frost-tolerant seeds. Schonfeld points out the potential for the irrigation needs in the dry Texas panhandle, in bringing viable corn to barren parts of the Third World, and in reducing the need for freshwater, 70 percent of which is now consumed by agriculture. In 2003, Hugh Grant moved up from chief operating officer to CEO of Monsanto. He reinforced discipline in the organization and tightened its focus. This involved concentrating the biotech work on the United States and South America, and on three (rather than six) crops. He has also stepped up the effort to counter seed piracy. Black market activity can, however, actually benefit the company by familiarizing countries where GM crops are banned. The lack of proven ill effects from pirated seeds seems to have been a factor in Brazil's reversal. The article looks at some of the parallels with the software industry and Microsoft in particular, since Monsanto only sells its GM seeds if farmers sign a contract, similar to a software end-user license, forbidding them to replant any of Monsanto's seeds without paying a new annual fee. The company may end up benefiting farmers and the environment by growing more crops while reducing the use of fertilizer, pesticides, and water, while getting rich by collecting royalties for every planting of its smart seeds. Commentary with links to related material is here: http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreCO.aspx?coid=CO10170513354888 _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org ________________________________________________________________ Director of Content Solutions, ManyWorlds Inc.: http://www.manyworlds.com --- Thought leadership in the innovation economy m.more at manyworlds.com _______________________________________________________ From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Nov 12 00:43:08 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:43:08 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com><006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer><1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <00b701c5e722$0d839a40$8998e03c@homepc> John K Clark wrote: >I came across an interesting statistic, the average resident of Mozambique > makes about 80$ A YEAR. I'm sure they work one hell of a lot longer than > 40 > hours a week to survive but even at that figure my 7 cents an hour would > be > enough to push a person into the upper middle class, if Mozambique had a > middle class. They don't. I figure they must be making about 4 cents an > hour now, so all you have to do to win the argument and make me concede > that > I am a villain for paying 7 cents an hour is to prove mathematically > that 4 is greater than 7. What universe are you living in where villains concede they are villains? If you want *someone* to convinct you of something I'm sure you could be obliged. You're the guy that thinks international law is pure farce as I recall, because there is no force behind it. Well your right about there being no force behind it. But the reason there is no force behind it is because at this stage in human history the force of international law depends largely on the honour and intellect of you and your countrymen. You already have a dead sentence over your head. You were born into it. You aren't exhibiting any behaviour that I can see that would qualify you for special positive treatment. If you are going to rely on future sapient entities for help (or to honour contracts made in their name) when you have considerably less to offer them and no force to bargain with what case is your current life and your current choice of arguments to develop making to earn you credit? Perhaps sitting on the fence, avoiding being worse than ones countrymen might be enough to make you avoid being deemed a villain, but you don't need to avoid a sentence (too late for that your already sentenced to being mortal), you need to positively earn a pardon for good behaviour. Would you want to reanimate some smo who in the era of slavery spent most of his effort saying his slaves ought be delighted at their good fortune of having him for a master as he personally gurantees them enough food to eat to survive? Fuck John, you are not a bad guy. But so far as I can see you are not by any obvious criteria a good one (one that the future is likely to feel motivated to expend some positive effort to have around) either. Nor am I. Brett Paatsch From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Sat Nov 12 01:38:06 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:38:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com><006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer><1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <4375477E.1090604@goldenfuture.net> I've always wondered about those statistics, which say that people in under-developed countries make $x an hour. Do those figures take into account the buying power of a dollar in that country? As in, if a gallon of cooking oil costs $2 in the United States, and $0.02 in Mozambique, that dollar is suddenly looking a lot more valuable in Mozambique, and only making 80 of them in a year suddenly looks a lot more reasonable. (Because common sense tells me that no one could live on $80 a year in the US, let alone as an average for an entire country, I must needs infer that $80 has a different value in terms of what it can buy. Dollars don't have inherent value; things that dollars can buy, do.) Is this a legitimate economic comparison of relative buying power, or an emotionally-touching sleight-of-hand based on exchange rates? I'm not saying this as any sort of smarmy straw man; I honestly don't know. Do we have any economists in our midst that could explain it to someone like me whose knowledge of classic economics is confined to senior year in High School? Joseph John K Clark wrote: > I came across an interesting statistic, the average resident of > Mozambique > makes about 80$ A YEAR. I'm sure they work one hell of a lot longer > than 40 > hours a week to survive but even at that figure my 7 cents an hour > would be > enough to push a person into the upper middle class, if Mozambique had a > middle class. They don't. I figure they must be making about 4 cents an > hour now, so all you have to do to win the argument and make me > concede that > I am a villain for paying 7 cents an hour is to prove mathematically > that 4 is greater than 7. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 02:06:43 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 18:06:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511120206.jAC26Re17350@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Harvey Newstrom > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution > > > On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:20 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > Ok Pat Robertson is warning of god's wrath: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/10/religion.robertson.reut/index.html > > Pat Robertson also says that hurricanes are God's way of attacking > Florida for tolerating gays. > > -- > Harvey Newstrom Florida tolerates gays now? Things have changed much since I moved away. spike From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Sat Nov 12 02:24:48 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:24:48 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France References: <200511111900.jABJ0De11809@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <000e01c5e730$44570fd0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> John K Clark" wrote > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France > To: "Jack Parkinson" , "ExI chat list" > > Jack Parkinson said: >> there is no country on earth where 7 cents an hour >> is sufficient to meet a person's basic needs. > > That is true, it is also true that is no country on earth where 7 cents an > hour will not get you closer to fulfilling a person's basic needs than > ZERO > cents an hour. Yes. I made this point before. It was your characterization of these people as 'delighted' I objected to and still object to. 'Desperate' - yes. > > You claim to be a great friend of the poor I don't remember saying that... Altruistic motives are fine - But I am trying to make the point that there are good, solid pragmatic reasons why richer countyries should eradicate the nagging inequalities which cause dissent to become radical/militant action. We would: a) save money in the long run b) have a lot less strife and more peace c) need a lot less body bags d) be able to relax a little more at home and stop worrying that the fight is about to be brought to our front doors e) be able to bask in that warm glow you get from actually helping someone rather than simply using them >but you say I should fire 99 out > of 100 of my employees and give all their salary to the survivor. You say > Wal-Mart and its customers are villainous for encouraging sweat shops, I don't remember saying that either... > let me propose a little experiment; go to Bangladesh or some other such > hellhole and tell a worker there that you are lobbying to have sweat shops > such as his shut down and see if he really thinks of you as a friend. On > second thought it would be better not to go there personally because they > will try to lynch you. I have actually been to Bangladesh and seen rows of seven to ten year olds sitting cross-legged on concrete floors in hot, darkened rooms sewing shirts for western markets. They work for even less than 7 cents an hour - no money at all in fact. They work for food, from dawn to dusk and are beaten if they stop. Blindness is an occupational hazard from squinting at stitches and threading needles in semi-darkness. Some of those sweat shops were closed down while I was there (briefly probably) - and this lead to an immediate local increase in child prostitution. You are right if you mean to say there is no quick fix - but I think you are wrong if you advocate that nothing at all should be done. > >> I didn't suggest dividing the wealth of the world. > > Well why not?! You said before that there was already PLENTY of wealth in > the world and that the only problem was that rich people were just too > stingy, I said the basic problem was there was not enough wealth in the > world and we should concentrate on making the pie bigger not squabble > about how to cut it up; are you conceding that I was right and you were > wrong? There is no 'wealth problem' in the world and there is an abundance of food and medicine. Eradication of US and European farm subsidies alone would unlock 300 billion plus US dollars - more than enough to tackle and solve the eat/drink/stay well problem for every person on the planet. Trade barriers on poor countries cost poor nations at least 100 billion US a year - more than twice what they receive in aid. Just lifting these barriers may be enough in some cases. See: http://www.worldlegacy.org/HungerQuiz.htm http://www.feedthechildren.org/site/PageServer?pagename=dotorg_homepage Also, the OXFAM, Smith Family, NGO and UN websites have masses of information - and their are numerous scholarly articles on this topic.. > >> $25 billion is adequate for basic food, water and medicine for everyone. >> This is not a lot of money > > Forget 25, 250 billion couldn't provide just medicine for 300 million > Americans for just one year, much less food AND water AND medicine AND for > all 7 billion people on the planet. Not so! In 7 cents an hour country, this sum goes a LONG way... >However I have nothing against charity, > I think it's fine, but to suggest that's all that is needed to solve the > problem is crazy. World poverty will be eliminated someday and probably > sooner than most people think, but when a full accounting of that glorious > achievement is made charity will amount to little more than a rounding > error. Yes. You don't give someone a fish to eat. You show them how and where they can fish - then they feed themselves. > >> If terrorism (and rioting for that matter) are the radical extremes of >> massive discontent - eliminate the discontent. > > Making nice to Islam will not reduce their anger one iota because the root > cause of that anger is not any specific action committed by the west. They > are angry at us for what we are not what we did. They would be less angry > if > the foundation of the west was dogma, even some dogma they didn't like, > instead it is based on free markets and pragmatic problem solving (the > scientific method) and that frightens and angers them. They would be less > angry if our system just didn't work very well, but we're rich free and > powerful and they are poor oppressed and weak. Moslems are not angry at you! If you ever spend time in Moslem countries, you will find that the vast majority of people are kind, considerate ordinary people. Good citizens who worry about their children, take care of their families and wouldn't harm anyone. Most of them are quite secular in their attitudes and they generally admire the entrepeneurial business spirit of the west and aspire to be a part of it. They are also as repelled and non-plussed as anyone in the west by radical clerics exhorting jihad. Directing your fear and anger at these ordinary people is not just counter-productive - it's completely mistaken. > > 800 years ago Islam was the most advanced civilization on Earth but its > been > straight downhill since, today they are not even second or third but dead > last; we have the word of The Profit so it can't be our fault, it must be > due to those evil westerners, our only mistake was embracing too many > new 16'th century ideas, we should go back to the good old 13'th century > ideas. > John K Clark That last sounds like good old-fashioned prejudice to me. Although I would certainly agree if you were to say that a theocracy (of any faith) was the most cruel and barbaric form of government we are capable of. All rulers who claim to be 'channeling' God sooner or later seem to think that they can start burning or mutilating people. And every faith throughout history has committed atrocities in those places where the clergy has gained sufficient political power. The exception would have to be Buddhism - although even there, self-immolation is not unknown... Jack Parkinson From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 02:36:33 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 18:36:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > I figure they must be > making about 4 cents an > hour now, so all you have to do to win the argument > and make me concede that > I am a villain for paying 7 cents an hour is to > prove mathematically > that 4 is greater than 7. > Would YOU do the job for 7 cents an hour? If not, then a moral case could be made that you are treating others WORSE than you yourself would want to be treated. This is sufficient in some morality systems to deem you guilty of wrong doing. Perhaps even a villian. ;) The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Nov 12 02:42:07 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:42:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution In-Reply-To: <200511120206.jAC26Re17350@tick.javien.com> References: <200511120206.jAC26Re17350@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2005, at 9:06 PM, spike wrote: >> On Nov 10, 2005, at 11:20 PM, spike wrote: >>> >>> Ok Pat Robertson is warning of god's wrath: >>> >>> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/10/religion.robertson.reut/index.html >> >> Pat Robertson also says that hurricanes are God's way of attacking >> Florida for tolerating gays. > > Florida tolerates gays now? Things have changed much > since I moved away. Yep. Dinsey lets gay people purchase health insurance for their partners and their children, just like regular folks. Who would have thought that religious bigots would still be fighting equal rights in the 21st Century? -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 02:51:53 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 18:51:53 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <4375477E.1090604@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: <200511120251.jAC2pae22362@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Bloch > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 5:38 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? > > I've always wondered about those statistics, which say that people in > under-developed countries make $x an hour. Do those figures take into > account the buying power of a dollar in that country?... There was an interesting fictional debate on the dramedy West Wing this past week. The ambiguously evil republican senator pointed out that the reason businesses cannot make a go of it in most African countries is that the taxes are too high. If his comment is correct, the tax structure calls for the 30% tax bracket kicks in at 470 bucks a year. That being the case, I expect few would report salaries much above that. The tax structure is such that we don't know how much people make in these places. Political fiction fans: any guesses on how the election will turn out on the West Wing? I have a scenario: ambiguously evil Senator Vinnick wins in a disputed vote count (and recount and recount), where he loses the popular vote but wins the college. Then over the next two seasons, he will make a series of disasterous moves. Any predictions? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 03:01:38 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:01:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <000e01c5e730$44570fd0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <200511120301.jAC31Ne23542@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jack Parkinson >... And every faith throughout history has > committed atrocities in those places where the clergy has gained > sufficient political power. The exception would have to be Buddhism... This comment is worth exploring further. Is it true that buddhism is always peaceful, even in its extreme? I know of no examples of warlike buddhists, but I have witnessed firsthand extreme passivism by a buddhist. >... - although even > there, self-immolation is not unknown... > Jack Parkinson So long as it is *self* immolation, I suppose that is their right to carry it out. Religious extremists seem to be more interested in others-immolation. spike From hal at finney.org Sat Nov 12 04:09:41 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:09:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs Message-ID: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> I recently ran across the blog of former list member Nick Szabo, http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/. I've been a big fan of Nick's for years, from back when he started the libtech list, pioneering a bunch of innovative ideas for cryptography and anonymity. Kind of like Robin Hanson, Nick got bored with what he was doing and decided to go off to law school. Nick has an amazing blog entry today called "Patent goo: self-replicating Paxil", http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2005/11/patent-goo-self-replicating-paxil.html : > In his novel Cat's Cradle, science fiction writer Kurt Vonnegut postulated > "Ice-9." Ice-9 was a form of water that was frozen at room temperature and > catalyzed any normal water it came in contact with into more crystals of > Ice-9. Once released into the environment, it froze all water, including > us. Eric Drexler in the 1980s raised the specter of nano-robots that made > copies of themselves and ate everything in their path: "gray goo." A > wide variety of similar hypothetical disasters have since been given > referred to as some sort of "goo." > > Self-replicating chemicals are not merely hypothetical: since Cat's > Cradle, scientists have discovered some real-world example of crystals > that seed the environment, converting other forms (polymorphs) of > the crystal into their own. The population of the original polymorph > diminishes as it is converted into the new form: it is a "disappearing > polymorph." In 1996 Abbott Labs began manufacturing the new anti-AIDS > drug ritonavir. In 1998 a more stable polymorph appeared in the American > manufacturing plant. It converted the old form of the drug into a new > polymorph, Form 2, that did not fight AIDS nearly as well. Abbott's > plant was contaminated, and it could no longer manufacture effective > rintonavir. Abbott continued to successfully manufacture the drug in > its Italian plant. Then American scientists visited, and that plant too > was contaminated was contaminated and could henceforth only produce the > ineffective Form 2. Apparently the scientists had carried some Form 2 > crystals into the plant on their clothing. Nick goes on to discuss how the same phenomenon occured with the anti-depressant Paxil and led to an unusual patent case. I thought it was incredible that a whole factory could be more or less permanently shut down once it is "infected" by the wrong shape of crystal. One person I wish would start a blog is Robin Hanson. Years ago I remember he came up with a concept that would work somewhat like a blog: imagine if you could subscribe to a mailing list which captured all of the email messages sent by a given person, to all the different forums and mesage groups he might participate in. The effect would be blog-like in terms of keeping you up to date with the ideas and writings of that person. I'd be interested in hearing about other blogs maintained by current and former list members. Maybe we could make a list. Hal From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 04:32:13 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:32:13 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> Message-ID: <5366105b0511112032u349117a1yf9860a62c63a27a5@mail.gmail.com> > I'd be interested in hearing about other blogs maintained by current > and former list members. Maybe we could make a list. > Thank you for the pointer to Nick Szabo's blog. I learned a lot from him back in the early '90s, and I am glad to know he remains active. Does Marc Steigler blog anywhere? You might try looking for transhumanist blogs at http://del.icio.us/tag/blog+transhumanism. This doesn't cover very many blogs, but as more people use del.icio.us, the tag pair should turn more common. The technorati tags for it might also give good results. I haven't checked that. Amara might know. I suggest you repeat this question on wta-talk. Anders Sandberg blogs at http://www.aleph.se/andart, and Greg Burch at http://gregburch.net/burchismo. Earlier this year Mike Lorrey compiled a list of transhumanist blogs, but he's been pretty quiet lately. He might have a blogroll at his blog, The International Libertarian at http://intlib.blogspot.com/, or he might have gone over to Bloglines. Michael Anissimov has one at http://singularity.typepad.com/anissimov/. George Dvorsky had one called Sentient Developments, but that's been a zombie blog for a long while. I keep a blog at http://hellofrom.blogspot.com, but avoid transhumanist themes--too many co-workers read it. David Brin has a blog named Contrary Brin, but I stopped reading it--too much political content. Charlie Stross keeps a blog, but the URL escapes me. Any others? Any group blogs I missed? More generally, what other social software do you commonly use? For instance, who else keeps bookmarks on del.icio.us, feeds on Bloglines or Rojo, calendars on EVDB or upcoming.org? Who has public-browsable web archives at Spurl or Furl? The WTA has a Flickr account. So does Brad K. DeLong. So do I. Who else? What did I omit? All of this raw material surely could turn into something useful at the hands of someone with time and talent. -- Jay Dugger http://www.redcross.org Please donate if you can. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 04:36:04 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:36:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> Message-ID: <5366105b0511112036l3ca37cb1w26701f19631b035d@mail.gmail.com> I'd also like to see Guilo Prico (sp?) blog. He pointed me at a tag-based discussion tool called Tagsurf (see http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1008301.html), which seemed to match what you describe below. "Years ago I remember he came up with a concept that would work somewhat like a blog: imagine if you could subscribe to a mailing list which captured all of the email messages sent by a given person, to all the different forums and mesage groups he might participate in. The effect would be blog-like in terms of keeping you up to date with the ideas and writings of that person." -- Jay Dugger http://www.redcross.org Please donate if you can. From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 12 05:16:00 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:16:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <5366105b0511112032u349117a1yf9860a62c63a27a5@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> <5366105b0511112032u349117a1yf9860a62c63a27a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051111231445.01cda370@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:32 PM 11/11/2005 -0600, Jay wrote: > Anders Sandberg blogs at http://www.aleph.se/andart > Charlie Stross keeps a blog, but the URL escapes me. It's at Andart, above: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/ Actually I believe Charlie runs *two* blogs... Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 05:54:34 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:54:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511120554.jAC5sIe11114@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Harvey Newstrom > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] oh my evolution ... > Who would have thought that religious bigots would still be fighting > equal rights in the 21st Century? > -- > Harvey Newstrom Who would have thought they would be fighting for creationism to be taught in public schools in the 21st? On that thought, I have a cheerful prediction. We took evolution for granted for so long that perhaps we just neglected the culture-war aspects of it all. I now suppose the serious efforts by creationists to teach intelligent design will force the issue to the attention of the sleeping proletariat. Ideally, many will recognize what an epiphany was Darwin's stunning insight. spike From moulton at moulton.com Sat Nov 12 08:54:37 2005 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:54:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1131785678.12021.735.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-11-11 at 13:19 +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > All that means is that they haven't reached the critical mass that > makes self segregation and non-integration feasible. Are you actually claiming that there is some critical mass that would result in the events of France happening in the Silicon Valley? If so then state exactly what is the value of this critical mass. Is it 100 or 200 or 500 or 1,000 or what? Or is it some percentage? What is it that you are claiming? > Try importing half a million, nostly unskilled non English > speakers, in the space of less than 20yrs and see what happens. We have had and still have many immigrants coming in. And many of them have limited or no English skills. Many of them are sneaking across the border to work cutting grass, waiting tables, manual labor and picking crops. Many send money out of the USA back to relatives. Some leave the USA after a few years but many put down roots, either get permanent resident status or become citizens. This area has had immigrants of all types; English speaking and non-English speaking, rich and poor, educated and uneducated. The factors why immigrants in the Silicon Valley are not rioting and burning cars like they are in France are ones that I and others have already mentioned. Factors such as a dynamic economy with fewer regulations, lower taxes and more entrepreneurial opportunities in this area as compared to France. Different government policies concerning providing of government housing assistance in this area as compared to France. Thus I repeat that this almost fetishistic and exclusive focus on the religion of the rioters shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the dynamics involved. The cultural and religious backgrounds of the rioters are only one part of a complex and a nuanced situation. And based on my local evidence just being Muslim does not lead someone to riot and burn cars. Fred > Dirk > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 10:26:43 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051112102643.95712.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com> --- mail at harveynewstrom.com wrote: > Jeff Davis wrote: > > Which brings me once again to the question: > > if I[...]rejuvenate[...]my bone marrow, > > can I rejuvenate[...]my bone marrow[...]? > > This is a circular, tautological question that > assumes its own answer before it is asked. Not at all. > If we assume that we can tweak bone marrow to extend lifespan, > would this allow us to tweak bone marrow to extend lifespan? Puleeeze! I assume nothing. I ask a question. And to the extent that it suggests a possibility, I ask if that possibility seems reasonable. To wit: Suppose I culture myself some "rejuvenated" bone marrow. By "rejuvenated" I mean composed of cells without shortened telomeres or nuclear or mitochondrial DNA errors. If I then replace my "old" bone marrow with this "rejuvenated" marrow, is it reasonable to suppose, theoretically, hypothetically, that I might achieve a restoration of youthful vigor in the functionality of my new bone marrow, and consequently a life extension result, a re-juvenation? Hope that clears things up, though frankly, I thought I was clear the first time. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 12:05:43 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:05:43 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <4375477E.1090604@goldenfuture.net> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> <4375477E.1090604@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: <4902d9990511120405l93d571biaac6125698296285@mail.gmail.com> On 11/12/05, Joseph Bloch wrote: > I've always wondered about those statistics, which say that people in > under-developed countries make $x an hour. Do those figures take into > account the buying power of a dollar in that country? They don't. And, as you say, taking into account purchasing power makes those figures more reasonable. Alfio From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 13:38:21 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:08:21 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: National Novel Writing Month - who's game to try? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0510152200s4520764et@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0510152200s4520764et@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0511120538pfcec17s@mail.gmail.com> Is anyone else giving NaNoWriMo a go? I've just hit 20K words tonight. Oh the pain! On 16/10/05, Emlyn wrote: > I was just forwarded information about National Novel Writing Month. > Has anyone here heard of it? Basically, the idea is that over > November, you (and a zillion other people who've signed up) write a > novel, from scratch. > > http://www.nanowrimo.org/ >... -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 20427 (http://nanowrimo.org) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 13:41:55 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:11:55 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051111231445.01cda370@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> <5366105b0511112032u349117a1yf9860a62c63a27a5@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20051111231445.01cda370@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0511120541w13c405en@mail.gmail.com> I've got a couple of blogs, my main one is on the front page of my site. It's my own crappy code, with no RSS feed yet. I meant to have it by now, but NaNoWriMo has kicked my butt, maybe I'll be able to get to it in December. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 20427 (http://nanowrimo.org) On 12/11/05, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:32 PM 11/11/2005 -0600, Jay wrote: > > > Anders Sandberg blogs at http://www.aleph.se/andart > > > Charlie Stross keeps a blog, but the URL escapes me. > > It's at Andart, above: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/ > > Actually I believe Charlie runs *two* blogs... > > Damien Broderick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Nov 12 15:34:11 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:34:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] PARTY TODAY! Austin, Texas Saturday 11/12/05 2:00 PM into the evening Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051112093115.03053e98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Friends, This is a reminder! If you are in the vicinity, we would love to have you join in! _______________________________ CryoFeast party in Austin, Texas, on November 12th! Saturday, 11/12/05 3:00 PM to 7:00 PM (or later) RSVP: Natasha Vita-More (512-263-2749, natasha at natasha.cc) There's no better time to learn about cryonics on a whole new level. Join Natasha and friends this holiday season for a turkey dinner, videos, guest speakers, and plenty of Alcor giveaways. This is a potluck event, so please Bring One Food Dish with you, such as a veggie dish, salad, dessert or drinks. Feel free to contact Alcor for more information by clicking on this link: http://www.alcor.org/Contact/index.html Join your Texas cryonics supporters for CryoFeast 2005! Jennifer Chapman, Marketing Director ALCOR FOUNDATION (877)462-5267 or (480)905-1906 ext. 113 Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist - Designer Future Studies, University of Houston President, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture Honorary Vice-Chair, World Transhumanist Association Senior Associate, Foresight Institute Advisor, Alcor Life Extension Foundation If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Nov 12 15:35:52 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:35:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] should she or shouldn't she In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051112093532.02caaf78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Great post! At 12:50 PM 11/11/2005, Amara Graps wrote: >Hi Folks, > >Some of you who have thought of novel Transhuman approaches to aiding >the professional women's dilemma of managing career and kids can go >to this blog and add your input: > >http://cosmicvariance.com/2005/11/10/should-she-or-shouldnt-she/ > >It is the usual story, but I know that there exists a few >technological aids here and on the horizon and so I gave one of my >favorite partial-solutions (freezing eggs). I think that it is >useful for you folks to hear some of the concerns and they are >the type of people that would be open to new approaches. > >(and ... by the way, the participants of this blog are among the >highest densities of scientific women I've seen so far on the Web.) > >Amara > > >-- > >******************************************************************** >Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com >Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt >Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ >******************************************************************** >"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." --Anais Nin > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist - Designer Future Studies, University of Houston President, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture Honorary Vice-Chair, World Transhumanist Association Senior Associate, Foresight Institute Advisor, Alcor Life Extension Foundation If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at att.net Sat Nov 12 16:17:57 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:17:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> "The Avantguardian" > Would YOU do the job for 7 cents an hour? If I was currently making 6 cents an hour I would not only take the job I'd be dancing in the street with happiness at receiving a 15% rise, or I would be if I wasn't too weak from hunger to do so. > you are treating others WORSE than you yourself > would want to be treated. Yes that's true, your happiness is important but not as important as my happiness. However there's nothing unusual about me, it's economic reality, everybody wants to get on the best end of an economic transaction and raging against that fact is about as useless as raging against gravity; instead we can use that information to generate wealth for the entire world through the free market. That's what Sam Walton did and I am convinced he created more wealth, including wealth in the third world, than all the international aid foundations in the world combined. John K Clark From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 16:47:11 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:47:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <200511121647.jACGlDe15022@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John K Clark > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 8:18 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > > "The Avantguardian" > > > Would YOU do the job for 7 cents an hour? > > If I was currently making 6 cents an hour I would not only take the job > I'd be dancing in the street with happiness at receiving a 15% rise, or I > would be if I wasn't too weak from hunger to do so... John K Clark This discussion reminds me of accounts of American GIs arriving at isolated South Pacific islands during WW2. They assumed the price of a harlot was a typical working man's pay for a day, which was about 15 dollars then. The premium harlots would get as much as 25 dollars in Toledo. The problem was a working man's wage there was a dollar a day; it had been that for a hundred years on the sugar plantations. One can imagine the economic impact. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 17:02:14 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:02:14 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: On 11/12/05, John K Clark wrote: > Yes that's true, your happiness is important but not as important as my > happiness. However there's nothing unusual about me, it's economic reality, > everybody wants to get on the best end of an economic transaction and raging > against that fact is about as useless as raging against gravity; instead we > can use that information to generate wealth for the entire world through the > free market. That's what Sam Walton did and I am convinced he created more > wealth, including wealth in the third world, than all the international aid > foundations in the world combined. > This is the political opinion that the biggest gangster in town deserves to get as much as he can. It is not only self-satisfied rich folk who say that the poor deserve to be poor. Most dictators and their cronies in poor third world countries say exactly the same. Do you appreciate that Walmart is the biggest enemy that America has? See: Executive Intelligence Review Quote: During the last 20 years, Wal-Mart has moved into communities and destroyed them, wiping out stores, slashing the tax base, and turning downtown areas into ghost-towns. This is accomplished through Wal-Mart's policy of paying workers below subsistence wages, and importing goods that have been produced under slave-labor conditions overseas. Often, communities will even give Wal-Mart tax incentives, for the right to be destroyed. Wal-Mart both reflects, and is, a major driving force for America's deadly implementation of the Imperial Rome model. Unable to produce physical goods to sustain its own existence, the United States, like Rome, sucks in imported goods from around the world, using, in this case, a dollar that is over-valued by 50-60%. America has been transformed from a producer to a consumer society. From the 1940s through the early 1960s, through its technologically-advanced manufacturing-agricultural economy, America produced new value that contributed to mankind's advancement. Through a "post-industrial society" policy, the bankers have pushed Wal-Mart to the top of the heap, so that it is now the world's largest corporation, with $245.5 billion in sales last year. Wal-Mart, which produces no value-added whatsoever, dominates the geometry that governs the U.S. consumer society. America consumes goods that others produce, which Wal-Mart markets. Wal-Mart dictates, through its demand for low prices, that its suppliers outsource their production to foreign nations, further ripping down America's battered domestic manufacturing and agricultural capability, in a self-feeding process. Read on for more gory detail. BillK From jonkc at att.net Sat Nov 12 17:20:30 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:20:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com><006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer><001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer><1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain><002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> <00b701c5e722$0d839a40$8998e03c@homepc> Message-ID: <00f101c5e7ad$6e55c380$d6054e0c@MyComputer> "Brett Paatsch" > You're the guy that thinks international law is pure farce as I recall I don't quite see the connection with 7 cent an hour sweatshops but yes, I do seem to recall saying something along those lines. > because there is no force behind it. Well, if policemen had no guns and no arms, or legs, and were blind and deaf, and a burglar broke into your home, would you call the police of reach for your gun? >the reason there is no force behind it is because at this stage in human >history the force of international law depends largely on the honour and >intellect of you and your countrymen. Yes, things would be much more honorable and intelligent if the UN ran the world, the organization that picked Libya (of Lockerbie fame) to run the Human Rights Commission. > Would you want to reanimate some smo who in the era of > slavery spent most of his effort saying his slaves ought be > delighted at their good fortune If he also had a practical workable plan that would eliminate slavery I would pick him in a instant over a person who blubbered and cried and flogged himself with whips to demonstrate to the world how profoundly he hated slavery but who's advice was so incredibly mind numbingly stupid it would actually strengthen that diabolical institution. > Fuck John, you are not a bad guy. But so far as I can see you are not > by any obvious criteria a good one (one that the future is likely to > feel motivated to expend some positive effort to have around) either. Face it, there is precious little reason a Jupiter Brain would bother bringing anybody alive now back. Maybe we'd have a very tiny nostalgia value to Mr. Jupiter, or maybe he'd do it just for laughs because it will either be absolutely imposable or dirt cheap. John K Clark From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 17:41:48 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:41:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511121741.jACHfVe22673@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... > > Do you appreciate that Walmart is the biggest enemy that America has? > > See: Executive Intelligence Review > > > Quote: > During the last 20 years, Wal-Mart has moved into communities and > destroyed them, wiping out stores, slashing the tax base, and turning > downtown areas into ghost-towns... BillK BillK, how is that destroying communities? Sounds to me like Walmart is facilitating urban renewal thru free markets. Those that oppose are free to trade elsewhere, opting instead to search for the most expensive mom and pop stores. I highly encourage this, so that they may get sweet revenge on that bad old Walmart, by brutally not shopping there. For the rest of us not so disposed, Walmart is our friend. spike From jonkc at att.net Sat Nov 12 17:45:08 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:45:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> "BillK" > Do you appreciate that Walmart is the biggest enemy that America has? I have been on this list for about 10 years and I believe the above remark is the single stupidest statement I have ever seen here, well....Ok, there was that fellow who said he could levitate the Great Wall Of China with Yoga, but it would certainly make the top ten list. And Mr. BillK a word of advice, you would gain more credibility on this list if you didn't mention that a Lyndon Larouche web page was the source of all your profound ideas. John K Clark From megao at sasktel.net Sat Nov 12 17:51:31 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <43762BA3.1060007@sasktel.net> However, a clever society should then produce higher value goods on its freed up productive capacity. This is my argument when I tell people that 700 acres of hemp when harvested and processed for nutraceuticals has the same 5 million dollar plus value as 23,000 acres of lentils, one of the higher value agricultural commodities. Which is better.... to expand and compete with a high value to start from or claw for the last dollar to spend to make a marginal return from repeating past patterns. In an ever more wealthy society the value of the basic goods should continue to reduce in value in order for money to be available for new high value goods. How are you going to pay for a life-long body regeneration plan if you spend 70% of you disposable income on food, clothes and shelter. If the technology is perfected to create the life-extension industry I would say that perhaps 40-95 % of the average annual income might initially be required to pay for it. My first 8 digit calculator in 1970 was 125$ and not 2$ as it is now. someone has to re-arrange societal economics to pay for the technology to be developed. These nanotech/infotech based "santa claus" machines we talk about are going to render most productive capacity of the ordinary kind obselete, but those people and resources are going to have to move up the food chain to create and service the new technology. But I do like to see a need to level out the value for service globally so that all citizens can afford the newest technological wonders. You can't buy distance education and internet access to your computer and blackberry on 7 cents/day of income. You can't travel from your hovel in ethiopia to anywhere new and interesting on 7 cents/day and so forth. I know someone will point to China and say.. not so... but there is a realistic limit to that argument. MFJ > See: Executive Intelligence Review > >> <> >> >> Wal-Mart both reflects, and is, a major driving force for America's >> deadly implementation of the Imperial Rome model. Unable to produce >> physical goods to sustain its own existence, the United States, like >> Rome, sucks in imported goods from around the world, using, in this >> case, a dollar that is over-valued by 50-60%. America has been >> transformed from a producer to a consumer society. From the 1940s >> through the early 1960s, through its technologically-advanced >> manufacturing-agricultural economy, America produced new value that >> contributed to mankind's advancement. Through a "post-industrial >> society" policy, the bankers have pushed Wal-Mart to the top of the >> heap, so that it is now the world's largest corporation, with $245.5 >> billion in sales last year. Wal-Mart, which produces no value-added >> whatsoever, dominates the geometry that governs the U.S. consumer >> society. America consumes goods that others produce, which Wal-Mart >> markets. Wal-Mart dictates, through its demand for low prices, that >> its suppliers outsource their production to foreign nations, further >> ripping down America's battered domestic manufacturing and >> agricultural capability, in a self-feeding process. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Nov 12 17:56:33 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:56:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <20051112102643.95712.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051112102643.95712.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2005, at 5:26 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > --- mail at harveynewstrom.com wrote: > >> Jeff Davis wrote: >>> Which brings me once again to the question: >>> if I[...]rejuvenate[...]my bone marrow, >>> can I rejuvenate[...]my bone marrow[...]? >> >> This is a circular, tautological question that >> assumes its own answer before it is asked. > > Not at all. > >> If we assume that we can tweak bone marrow to extend > lifespan, >> would this allow us to tweak bone marrow to extend > lifespan? > > Puleeeze! I assume nothing. I ask a question. And > to the extent that it suggests a possibility, I ask if > that possibility seems reasonable. To wit: Suppose I > culture myself some "rejuvenated" bone marrow. By > "rejuvenated" I mean composed of cells without > shortened telomeres or nuclear or mitochondrial DNA > errors. If I then replace my "old" bone marrow with > this "rejuvenated" marrow, is it reasonable to > suppose, theoretically, hypothetically, that I might > achieve a restoration of youthful vigor in the > functionality of my new bone marrow, and consequently > a life extension result, a re-juvenation? > > Hope that clears things up, though frankly, I thought > I was clear the first time. Yes, I understood it the first time. Nothing has changed. I hope I can make myself clear this time. Your starting point is; "if I rejuvenated bone marrow" Your ending point is: "resulting in rejuvenated bone marrow" Your starting point is the same as your ending point. Your final question is whether you have the thing you started with. No matter how wide the territory in-between, you end up where you started. Hence, a circle. Your entire if...then...therefore sequence is a circular argument where the conclusion statement at the end exactly matches your premise statement at the beginning. Your logical premise and conclusion boil down to "assuming I have X.... do you admit I have X?" This is a self-defined logical construct whose answer must always be "yes". You answer your final question with your beginning premise. No one can say you can't end up with rejuvenated bone marrow, because your first sentence , because the premise that is to be assumed answers the question at the end. It is a well-known logical fallacy known as circular logic. If you really can't understand the above, then let me simply answer your question: If you can rejuvenate bone marrow as you say, you will indeed end up with rejuvenated bone marrow as you say. But if you can't rejuvenate bone marrow as you say, then I don't believe you can rejuvenate bone marrow as you say. Does that answer your question? -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From brian at posthuman.com Sat Nov 12 18:12:01 2005 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:12:01 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <200511121741.jACHfVe22673@tick.javien.com> References: <200511121741.jACHfVe22673@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <43763071.7030600@posthuman.com> I encourage everyone to see the South Park expose of the true evil heart of Wall*Mart :-) -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:25:18 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:25:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <001901c5e690$4b97b600$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> <001901c5e690$4b97b600$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <4902d9990511121025m33e5d13dke88a299ade72f0a3@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/05, Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Fred C. Moulton" > > > If we are considering "riots in France" as the subject line says then I > > suggest caution in focusing primarily on the religion of the rioters. .... > > I've suspected something like this was going on, as well: > > Cameras capture racist taunts of anti-riot police: > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1865533,00.html On the same lines, a high-quality article by the Economist about the riots http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5138990 which discusses the Islam problem without falling in the "Islam bad" trap and makes clear how ordinary racism is the problem. From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:51:13 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:51:13 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> <010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: On 11/12/05, John K Clark wrote: > "BillK" > > > Do you appreciate that Walmart is the biggest enemy that America has? > > I have been on this list for about 10 years and I believe the above remark > is the single stupidest statement I have ever seen here, well....Ok, there > was that fellow who said he could levitate the Great Wall Of China with > Yoga, but it would certainly make the top ten list. And Mr. BillK a word > of advice, you would gain more credibility on this list if you didn't > mention that a Lyndon Larouche web page was the source of all your > profound ideas. > > John K Clark > Who's Lyndon Larouche? I've never heard of him. I was reading the message, not criticising the messenger. But apart from him, there are many Walmart critics, websites, blogs, news reports. Do some googling, if you are unaware of them. Here is a Dems report on Walmart's low wages for example. And there is still the problem of much of USA production being moved overseas and internal production facilities being shut down. Production jobs being moved overseas to low wage economies is still a problem, no matter the credentials of the person pointing it out. BillK From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Nov 12 23:44:19 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:44:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <745E0696-420F-4A32-BB27-141BFD8D0E79@mac.com> Context is everything. On Nov 11, 2005, at 6:36 PM, The Avantguardian wrote: > > > --- John K Clark wrote: > > >> I figure they must be >> making about 4 cents an >> hour now, so all you have to do to win the argument >> and make me concede that >> I am a villain for paying 7 cents an hour is to >> prove mathematically >> that 4 is greater than 7. >> >> > > Would YOU do the job for 7 cents an hour? If not, then > a moral case could be made that you are treating > others WORSE than you yourself would want to be > treated. This is sufficient in some morality systems > to deem you guilty of wrong doing. Perhaps even a > villian. ;) > > > The Avantguardian > is > Stuart LaForge > alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu > > "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to > live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > http://farechase.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Nov 12 23:58:32 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:58:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <200511120301.jAC31Ne23542@tick.javien.com> References: <200511120301.jAC31Ne23542@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <375EE2BC-812D-4A92-B4D8-883FDCB58CCF@mac.com> A few odds and ends on less than peaceful Buddhist activity follow. http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.htm http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/6/bartho991.htm http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/ holy_war_buddhism_islam_shambhala_long.html http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/dalitism/dal000/budsinbk.html http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/15293.htm http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0700716823?v=glance Generally Buddhist teaching is markedly pacifist. However many Buddhist leaders have supported various wars and on occasion Buddhist armies have been fielded. - samantha On Nov 11, 2005, at 7:01 PM, spike wrote: >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jack Parkinson >> > > >> ... And every faith throughout history has >> committed atrocities in those places where the clergy has gained >> sufficient political power. The exception would have to be >> Buddhism... >> > > This comment is worth exploring further. Is it true that > buddhism is always peaceful, even in its extreme? I know > of no examples of warlike buddhists, but I have witnessed > firsthand extreme passivism by a buddhist. > > >> ... - although even >> there, self-immolation is not unknown... >> Jack Parkinson >> > > So long as it is *self* immolation, I suppose that > is their right to carry it out. Religious extremists > seem to be more interested in others-immolation. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From moulton at moulton.com Sun Nov 13 00:41:31 2005 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:41:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <4902d9990511121025m33e5d13dke88a299ade72f0a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> <001901c5e690$4b97b600$6600a8c0@brainiac> <4902d9990511121025m33e5d13dke88a299ade72f0a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1131842491.12021.817.camel@localhost.localdomain> Alfio Thanks for the pointer to the Economist article, it was interesting. Fred On Sat, 2005-11-12 at 19:25 +0100, Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On 11/11/05, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > From: "Fred C. Moulton" > > > > > If we are considering "riots in France" as the subject line says then I > > > suggest caution in focusing primarily on the religion of the rioters. .... > > > > I've suspected something like this was going on, as well: > > > > Cameras capture racist taunts of anti-riot police: > > > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1865533,00.html > > On the same lines, a high-quality article by the Economist about the riots > > http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5138990 > > which discusses the Islam problem without falling in the "Islam bad" > trap and makes clear how ordinary racism is the problem. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 02:08:34 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:08:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511130208.jAD28He08413@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... > Production jobs being moved overseas to low wage economies is still a > problem, no matter the credentials of the person pointing it out. BillK If production is done by nanotech miracle factories, the result is exactly the same as offshoring, is it not? Yet we don't dread that at all, we fondly anticipate it. We would need to come up with a new name for manufacturing jobs lost to nanotech. Downsourcing? In-shoring? spike From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 02:34:12 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:34:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051113023412.23563.qmail@web60024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Yes, I understood it the first time. Apparently not. > Nothing has changed. Indeed, so. You still don't get it, inventing a meaning, and a circularity that isn't there. > I hope I can make myself clear this time. You were clear the first time. > > Your starting point is; "if I rejuvenated [my] bone > marrow" Right so far. > Your ending point is: "resulting in rejuvenated bone > marrow" No, this is not the ending point. You misunderstand in thinking so. This is **your** restatement of my starting point, which you have, on your own initiative, plunked down at this point and attributed to me as a repetition of my starting point and a circularity of reasoning. YOU did this, misunderstanding me. I did not. One last time. If I manipulate my "aged" bone marrow, so as to cause it to possess once again the characteristics it had when I was young and spry (this is the starting part, the "if I rejuvenate my bone marrow" part),(now here's the ending part) what will be the consequences for the larger system composed of my otherwise old body with its now newly "rejuvenated" bone marrow? This is not an argument, it is an open-ended question. I do not presume to draw a conclusion, nor force one on anyone else. I'm just asking a question. Clearly I am hoping for, hypothesizing the possibility of a health-enhancing outcome. But I am being cautious, recognizing that the biological system is quite complex, and that the consequences of such gross tinkering as suggested by my question may not have the hoped-for outcome. Harvey, you're an exceedingly bright fellow and not usually this obtuse. Is something else going on? Have I annoyed you? Best, Jeff Davis "Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they mind, and how long they remember." Martin Amis > > Your starting point is the same as your ending > point. Your final > question is whether you have the thing you started > with. No matter how > wide the territory in-between, you end up where you > started. Hence, a > circle. Your entire if...then...therefore sequence > is a circular > argument where the conclusion statement at the end > exactly matches your > premise statement at the beginning. > > Your logical premise and conclusion boil down to > "assuming I have X.... > do you admit I have X?" This is a self-defined > logical construct whose > answer must always be "yes". You answer your final > question with your > beginning premise. No one can say you can't end up > with rejuvenated > bone marrow, because your first sentence , because > the premise that is > to be assumed answers the question at the end. It > is a well-known > logical fallacy known as circular logic. > > If you really can't understand the above, then let > me simply answer > your question: > If you can rejuvenate bone marrow as you say, you > will indeed end up > with rejuvenated bone marrow as you say. > But if you can't rejuvenate bone marrow as you say, > then I don't > believe you can rejuvenate bone marrow as you say. > Does that answer your question? > > -- > Harvey Newstrom > CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS > IBMCP > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 02:35:55 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:35:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051113023555.95441.qmail@web60020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Yes, I understood it the first time. Apparently not. > Nothing has changed. Indeed, so. You still don't get it, inventing a meaning, and a circularity that isn't there. > I hope I can make myself clear this time. You were clear the first time. > > Your starting point is; "if I rejuvenated [my] bone > marrow" Right so far. > Your ending point is: "resulting in rejuvenated bone > marrow" No, this is not the ending point. You misunderstand in thinking so. This is **your** restatement of my starting point, which you have, on your own initiative, plunked down at this point and attributed to me as a repetition of my starting point and a circularity of reasoning. YOU did this, misunderstanding me. I did not. One last time. If I manipulate my "aged" bone marrow, so as to cause it to possess once again the characteristics it had when I was young and spry (this is the starting part, the "if I rejuvenate my bone marrow" part),(now here's the ending part) what will be the consequences for the larger system composed of my otherwise old body with its now newly "rejuvenated" bone marrow? This is not an argument, it is an open-ended question. I do not presume to draw a conclusion, nor force one on anyone else. I'm just asking a question. Clearly I am hoping for, hypothesizing the possibility of a health-enhancing outcome. But I am being cautious, recognizing that the biological system is quite complex, and that the consequences of such gross tinkering as suggested by my question may not have the hoped-for outcome. Harvey, you're an exceedingly bright fellow and not usually this obtuse. Is something else going on? Have I annoyed you? Best, Jeff Davis "Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they mind, and how long they remember." Martin Amis > > Your starting point is the same as your ending > point. Your final > question is whether you have the thing you started > with. No matter how > wide the territory in-between, you end up where you > started. Hence, a > circle. Your entire if...then...therefore sequence > is a circular > argument where the conclusion statement at the end > exactly matches your > premise statement at the beginning. > > Your logical premise and conclusion boil down to > "assuming I have X.... > do you admit I have X?" This is a self-defined > logical construct whose > answer must always be "yes". You answer your final > question with your > beginning premise. No one can say you can't end up > with rejuvenated > bone marrow, because your first sentence , because > the premise that is > to be assumed answers the question at the end. It > is a well-known > logical fallacy known as circular logic. > > If you really can't understand the above, then let > me simply answer > your question: > If you can rejuvenate bone marrow as you say, you > will indeed end up > with rejuvenated bone marrow as you say. > But if you can't rejuvenate bone marrow as you say, > then I don't > believe you can rejuvenate bone marrow as you say. > Does that answer your question? > > -- > Harvey Newstrom > CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS > IBMCP > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 13 03:05:00 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 21:05:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <200511130208.jAD28He08413@tick.javien.com> References: <200511130208.jAD28He08413@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051112205652.01dad858@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 06:08 PM 11/12/2005 -0800, spike wrote: >If production is done by nanotech miracle factories, >the result is exactly the same as offshoring, is it >not? Yet we don't dread that at all, we fondly >anticipate it. I do dread it, for exactly the reason I gestured at a few days ago (although I left out some of the steps): People (young men especially) with full bellies gained effortlessly, but lacking meaning in their lives, often seem to find purpose fast in ganging up on each other in fits of murderous primate chest-pounding. Making Soma the opium of the people might help, but that's a pretty sickening prospect. It's hard for us self-starter INTJs to grasp that hapless dynamic, but then we're less than 5% of the population, and most of us here are a slimmer slice through that group as well, being at least in the top 2 IQ percentiles. Damien Broderick From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Sun Nov 13 03:32:29 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:32:29 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? References: <200511121742.jACHg7e22787@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <003101c5e802$e7e880c0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> > From: Alfio Puglisi > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: > <4902d9990511120405l93d571biaac6125698296285 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 11/12/05, Joseph Bloch wrote: >> I've always wondered about those statistics, which say that people in >> under-developed countries make $x an hour. Do those figures take into >> account the buying power of a dollar in that country? > > They don't. And, as you say, taking into account purchasing power > makes those figures more reasonable. > > Alfio Poverty can never be called reasonable. By definition it is less than the level required for basic neccessities. The basis for the statistics is well-established this snip from: http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTPOVERTY/EXTPA/0,,contentMDK:20153855~menuPK:435040~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:430367,00.html Measuring poverty at the country level A common method used to measure poverty is based on incomes or consumption levels. A person is considered poor if his or her consumption or income level falls below some minimum level necessary to meet basic needs. This minimum level is usually called the "poverty line". What is necessary to satisfy basic needs varies across time and societies. Therefore, poverty lines vary in time and place, and each country uses lines which are appropriate to its level of development, societal norms and values. Information on consumption and income is obtained through sample surveys, with which households are asked to answer detailed questions on their spending habits and sources of income. Such surveys are conducted more or less regularly in most countries. These sample survey data collection methods are increasingly being complemented by participatory methods, where people are asked what their basic needs are and what poverty means for them. Interestingly, new research shows a high degree of concordance between poverty lines based on objective and subjective assessments of needs. For details on methodology, see the Measuring Poverty topic in the Poverty Analysis site. For data see Data and Data Sources. Measuring poverty at the global level When estimating poverty worldwide, the same reference poverty line has to be used, and expressed in a common unit across countries. Therefore, for the purpose of global aggregation and comparison, the World Bank uses reference lines set at $1 and $2 per day (more precisely $1.08 and $2.15 in 1993 Purchasing Power Parity terms). It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day. These figures are lower than earlier estimates, indicating that some progress has taken place, but they still remain too high in terms of human suffering, and much more remains to be done. The Global Poverty Monitoring Database, by Chen and Ravallion at the World Bank contains global and regional poverty estimates for the years 1981, 1984, 1987, 1990, 1993, 1996, 1999 and 2001 as well as data on the share of people living below the national poverty line by country for the years when household surveys are available. The methodology used for the Global Poverty Monitoring Database is explained by Ravallion and Chen in "How did the world's poorest fare in the 1990s?" (2000) . For new estimates, see their paper "How Have the World's Poorest Fared Since the Early 1980s? " (2004)(232Kb PDF). Recent years have witnessed a lively debate on global poverty measurement. For more information go to The Global Poverty Numbers Debate. Jack Parkinson From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Sun Nov 13 03:48:59 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:48:59 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511121900.jACJ09e30231@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <003c01c5e805$31755220$0201a8c0@JPAcer> > From: "John K Clark" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in > France) > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c at MyComputer> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > "BillK" > >> Do you appreciate that Walmart is the biggest enemy that America has? > > I have been on this list for about 10 years and I believe the above remark > is the single stupidest statement I have ever seen here... It's all a matter of perception. If it is true (as is widely reported) that half of Wal-Marts workers live below the US poverty line and cannot afford basic health care - then this surely places a huge burden on society (and is breeding dissent for future trouble) - and the only balancing beneficiaries are the Walton family. If, hypothetically, Wal-Mart was replaced by several thousand smaller independent stores, all paying their employees a decent living wage, and all competing to keep prices low, wouldn't the US be better off in overall terms? There would be better job opportunities (a lot more choice), better wages, more wealth in circulation, more opportunities to start and run a small business - and consumers would have more choice as to where they spent their money... Jack Parkinson From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sun Nov 13 03:56:58 2005 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 22:56:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <20051113023555.95441.qmail@web60020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051113023555.95441.qmail@web60020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9bd2596179d18007684f681d8c4c7853@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Nov 12, 2005, at 9:35 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: >> Your ending point is: "resulting in rejuvenated bone >> marrow" > > No, this is not the ending point. You misunderstand > in thinking so. This is **your** restatement of my > starting point, which you have, on your own > initiative, plunked down at this point and attributed > to me as a repetition of my starting point and a > circularity of reasoning. YOU did this, > misunderstanding me. I did not. OK. So I "misread" the following part of your posting: > can I rejuvenate or "super-rejuvenate" my bone marrow > progenitor cell repair/mainteneance capability[....] as asking if you could rejuvenate or "super-rejuvenate" your bone marrow progenitor cell repair/maintenance capability[...]. It is not as unreasonable reading as you suggest! > Harvey, you're an exceedingly bright fellow and not > usually this obtuse. Is something else going on? > Have I annoyed you? Nothing else is going on. You didn't annoy me until this suggestion. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From megao at sasktel.net Sun Nov 13 04:25:22 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 22:25:22 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aging as a function of bone marrow degradation In-Reply-To: <9bd2596179d18007684f681d8c4c7853@HarveyNewstrom.com> References: <20051113023555.95441.qmail@web60020.mail.yahoo.com> <9bd2596179d18007684f681d8c4c7853@HarveyNewstrom.com> Message-ID: <4376C032.9020001@sasktel.net> That scenario is one of the more doable ways to introduce steady-state evolution. The biological cycle of humans today is more like the big bang universe. What it will take to convert a big bang universe into an ongoing steady state one is the task at hand , so to speak. Modification of individual genes or structures like mitochondria utilizing an organ that can be removed and replaced like bone marrow is a good way to test out the baby steps that will lead to more grandiose schemes. The ability to create an evolutionary process that acts as a life boat to other systems does not require the dramatic advances that would be needed to make advanced whole body therapeutic regeneration a workable possibility. For someone like me who is 50, I'd like to see the real but simple over the dramatic. From a selfish point of view, I'd like to bootstrap nutritional augmentation for 15 more years but have some kind of realistic expectation that such a technique as bone marrow based systemic modification be available. Perhaps that might get me another 15 years, at which time I would be in need of something more dramatic. Without the bridge, it does not reall matter if the dramatic is available in 40 years as I may be a lost biological cause by then. It's all relative to where you are on the depreciation schedule to determine if there will be a rebuild or if you will be written off and go to the wrecking/recycling yard. MFJ From megao at sasktel.net Sun Nov 13 04:38:56 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 22:38:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <003c01c5e805$31755220$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511121900.jACJ09e30231@tick.javien.com> <003c01c5e805$31755220$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <4376C360.9030407@sasktel.net> Walmart is just like any other business going to go through a business cycle. Just because Msoft and Walmart are huge is no guarantee that they will dominate forever. In agriculture, we see a cyclical birthing and death of business. Bigger and bigger does continue, but at the end of every full expansion is a paradigm shift... I'd be surprised if even Msoft and walmart can insulate themselves from this forever. This discussion is perhaps part of the larger process that will lead to that correction over time. Those who manage Walmart might accidentally watch Southpark too , don't you suppose. > It's all a matter of perception. If it is true (as is widely reported) > that half of Wal-Marts workers live below the US poverty line and > cannot afford basic health care - then this surely places a huge > burden on society (and is breeding dissent for future trouble) - and > the only balancing beneficiaries are the Walton family. > > If, hypothetically, Wal-Mart was replaced by several thousand smaller > independent stores, all paying their employees a decent living wage, > and all competing to keep prices low, wouldn't the US be better off in > overall terms? > > There would be better job opportunities (a lot more choice), better > wages, more wealth in circulation, more opportunities to start and > run a small business - and consumers would have more choice as to > where they spent their money... From jonkc at att.net Sun Nov 13 05:38:24 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:38:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer><010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <002801c5e814$914d4f40$6f064e0c@MyComputer> "BillK" > Who's Lyndon Larouche? I've never heard of him. Well that's a pity because you quoted from him extensively, and I think you should know a little something about a webpage before you recommend it to the list. Lyndon Larouche is an ex-convict and anti- Semite and possibly the biggest crackpot on the planet. Mr. Larouche thinks that Wal-Mart is the biggest enemy that America has, he also thinks Queen Elizabeth II of England promotes Satanism and is the biggest drug lord in the world. He thinks the Queen uses the money from crack sales to finance genocide in the third world by endorsing feminist and homosexual groups and abortion clinics. And believe it or not Mr. Larouche thinks Queen Elizabeth II of England uses the rest of her money to promote "the rock and roll counterculture". I am not kidding. Oh and Walter Mondale is a KGB agent, and Wal-Mart is the biggest enemy that America has.. sorry I already mentioned that one, and we should use H bombs in the mid east, and the space colony advocates in the old L5 society were devil worshipers, and Aldous Huxley wrote his books on orders from the Queen to corrupt America through "Asian religions" and .... > But apart from him, there are many Walmart critics, websites, blogs No shit Sherlock. Wal-Mart is big, and you can always find some jackass on the net blasting something that is famous, rich, or big; but I'll let you in on a little secret, not everything on the internet is true. > Do some googling Read some books. > Here is a Dems report on Walmart's low wages for example [blah blah blah] I want you to listen very carefully, it's really not that complicated, if you think Wal-Mart's wages are too low THEN DON'T WORK THERE. > And there is still the problem of much of USA production being moved > overseas WHAT?!! Make up your mind, one second you're weeping that rich countries don't help the poor the next you want jobs in poor countries sent to rich America. John K Clark From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 13 05:52:33 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:52:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <002801c5e814$914d4f40$6f064e0c@MyComputer> References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> <010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> <002801c5e814$914d4f40$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051112235009.01e53ea0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:38 AM 11/13/2005 -0500, Pelagius wrote: >>Here is a Dems report on Walmart's low wages for example [blah blah blah] > >I want you to listen very carefully, it's really not that complicated, if >you think Wal-Mart's wages are too low THEN DON'T WORK THERE. Since Bill's argument is that Wal-Mart are engaged in a drastic and ruinous Tragedy of the Commons, I think the key would be, rather: DON'T BUY THERE. Or if you do, suck up the guilt along with the savings. Damien Broderick From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Nov 13 06:03:12 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:03:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) French claim Paris riots more cultured than American riots Message-ID: <4376D720.9050606@mindspring.com> Barry Williams wrote: >A very perceptive piece about recent events. Giving Barry the benefit of the doubt here and assuming he meant that ironically. I'm pretty sure this is a satire site. >>www.chaser.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2859&Itemid=26 Ze rioters, zey are swept up in ze overwhelming existential ennui of a cold, uncaring universe zat crushes ze soul, non? >French authorities have been reluctant to send in troops to quell >the protests, insisting that a military presence will only be >legitimate with UN backing. Bringing the riots under control has >been dismissed as "Anglo-Saxon policing" by members of the >Government. "We do not want to relinquish our proud French >traditions just because they cause mass civil unrest," said Social >Affairs Minister Jean-Louis Borloo. "We will not trade in racism, >mass unemployment and arrogant timidity in policing for a >"McCulture" of law and order." Looks like there's no alternative, they're just gonna have to resort to a proud French tradition: surrender. Dave Palmer -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia/Secret War in Laos veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From jonkc at att.net Sun Nov 13 06:37:24 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:37:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer><010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer><002801c5e814$914d4f40$6f064e0c@MyComputer> <6.2.1.2.0.20051112235009.01e53ea0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <004b01c5e81c$bf57fc70$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Me: >> I want you to listen very carefully, it's really not that complicated, if >> you think Wal-Mart's wages are too low THEN DON'T WORK THERE. "Damien Broderick" > I think the key would be, rather: DON'T BUY THERE. Yes, that's fine advice, if you think Wal-Mart is evil then shop at the little mom and pop store that overcharges the hell out of you. However I'll bet that's not what they do, I'll bet after a hard day's work writing anti corporate screeds most blog writers instead go to Wal-Mart for a six pack, a pack of Marlboros, and most important of all, a comic book. John K Clark From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 06:51:45 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 22:51:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <004b01c5e81c$bf57fc70$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <200511130651.jAD6pQe06934@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John K Clark ... > >> I want you to listen very carefully, it's really not that complicated, if > >> you think Wal-Mart's wages are too low THEN DON'T WORK THERE. > > "Damien Broderick" > > > I think the key would be, rather: DON'T BUY THERE... It's a moral paradox. If one is poor, then clearly it is OK to shop at Walmart. What if one isn't destitute, but isn't rolling in it either? How well-funded can one be before shopping at Wallyworld should produce guilt? Then what about Salvation Army? Clothing and other stuff there was donated for the poor, but SA has to sell the stuff that will sell in order to raise money for the poor. So if one is not poor, is it OK to buy stuff there? By doing so, one helps the Salvation Army raise money for the poor, and that is good, but it also removes articles that could be purchased by people less fortunate, which is bad, but it also frees up shelf space for more donated merchandise, which can be used to display more donated stuff for sale, good. Suggestions welcome. spike From jonkc at att.net Sun Nov 13 07:15:24 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 02:15:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer><010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer><002801c5e814$914d4f40$6f064e0c@MyComputer> <6.2.1.2.0.20051112235009.01e53ea0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <007501c5e822$1f099160$6f064e0c@MyComputer> "Jack Parkinson" > If, hypothetically, Wal-Mart was replaced by several thousand smaller > independent stores, all paying their employees a decent living wage, > and all competing to keep prices low, wouldn't the US be better > off in overall terms? NO! I rather doubt that Billy Bobs Pretty Good Hardware Store or any of the thousands of other stores in your hypothetical could match Wal-Mart's legendary hyper efficiency; most economists agree that Wal-Mart can take credit for a big chunk of the productivity growth America had the good fortune to receive over the last 10 years, and productivity is the name of the game, it is the generator of wealth. So in your world the pool of people wanting a job would be the same but there would be less money available to pay their salary. And consumers would be paying far more than they should for goods. That's not a world I want to live in. John K Clark From eugen at leitl.org Sun Nov 13 07:23:42 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:23:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <200511130208.jAD28He08413@tick.javien.com> References: <200511130208.jAD28He08413@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051113072342.GT2249@leitl.org> On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 06:08:34PM -0800, spike wrote: > If production is done by nanotech miracle factories, > the result is exactly the same as offshoring, is it It is nothing like offshoring, provided most individuals directly own the nanofabs. Problem with today's production is centralism (large scale facilities offer better economies) and specialization -- things degrade quickly is a place loses competitiveness. Scarcity still exists with nanofabs, but it only concerns luxuries and weapons (even if anyone on the block could fab a nuke they probably shouldn't be allowed to, at least given current humanity). > not? Yet we don't dread that at all, we fondly > anticipate it. We would need to come up with a > new name for manufacturing jobs lost to nanotech. > Downsourcing? In-shoring? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Nov 13 07:33:10 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:33:10 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051112235009.01e53ea0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> <010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> <002801c5e814$914d4f40$6f064e0c@MyComputer> <6.2.1.2.0.20051112235009.01e53ea0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051113073310.GW2249@leitl.org> On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 11:52:33PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > Since Bill's argument is that Wal-Mart are engaged in a drastic and ruinous > Tragedy of the Commons, I think the key would be, rather: DON'T BUY THERE. > Or if you do, suck up the guilt along with the savings. Why? I'm free to graze my cattle wherever I want. If I don't graze them on the commons, somebody else will. Which tragedy? The grass is lush and green. The future? Which future? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 07:37:56 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:37:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <003c01c5e805$31755220$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <20051113073756.20973.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jack Parkinson wrote: > It's all a matter of perception. If it is true (as > is widely reported) that > half of Wal-Marts workers live below the US poverty > line and cannot afford > basic health care - then this surely places a huge > burden on society (and is > breeding dissent for future trouble) - and the only > balancing beneficiaries > are the Walton family. It is absolutely true. Wal-Mart is to free market capitalism what Jimmy Hoffa was to labor unions. That is to say that they are the festering exception that invalidates the rule, turning what is good and beautiful into something ugly and attrocious. The Walton family are corrupt robber barons in every sense of the word with absolutely no sense of noblesse oblige or altruistic philanthropy. Bill Gates and MSFT are saints and angels compared to these low lifes. Almost all their philanthropy is self-serving, consisting of donations to right-wing partisan causes such as the destruction of the public education system here in the U.S. to be replaced with a string of private schools called Tesseract Group Inc which they essentially own. The rest seems to go to the GOP and candidates such as Bush that will cut their taxes. Yet here is where the hypocrisy of their greed comes to light. Despite their never ending crusade against public education, taxes, and government assisitance, they are the "welfare queens" of corporate America sucking down some $1.008 billion USD in government subsidies ranging from land development subsidies to general grant monies. All this is paid for by you and me and other "honest" tax-payers. http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/pdf/wmtstudy.pdf On top of this, while they beggar their own employees, they simultaneously encourage them to seek government assistance to make up the difference in a livable wage. http://www.blackcommentator.com/78/78_cover_unions.html Relevant quote -------------------------------- "Wal-Mart can also teach its acolytes how to profit from poverty. Although the Walton family spends millions on rightwing causes to undermine what?s left of the social safety net, their corporation urges employees to apply for every available government assistance. According to a report prepared by the House Committee on Education and the Workforce, federal taxpayers subsidize the typical, 200-employee Wal-Mart store at the rate of $420,750 a year. Rep. George Miller charges Wal-Mart is the source of "downward spirals in communities." ------------------- It is almost as if they are waging socioeconomic genocide on the poor by- 1. Not paying them enough to live on. 2. Encouraging them to go on welfare. 3. Funding political candidates to cut welfare programs. 4. Competing with the poor for government money through their inexcusable use of corporate welfare programs such as land development subsidies. 5. Actively trying to eliminate public education in this country to curtail any opportunity for the poor to get a better job than Walmart greeter in this country. So next time YOU are fooled into thinking you are saving a few bucks by shopping at Wal-mart, remember that they are more than cancelling out your savings with all that tax money of yours that they are greedily stuffing into their pockets, behind your back. > > If, hypothetically, Wal-Mart was replaced by several > thousand smaller > independent stores, all paying their employees a > decent living wage, and all > competing to keep prices low, wouldn't the US be > better off in overall > terms? Of course it would be. That's like asking if an ecosystem would be healthier if it had more than a single species. Or whether your children would be better off if you had a larger pool than one person from which to select your mate. The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Nov 13 07:43:18 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:43:18 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> <001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <01bb01c5e825$e9ddfa40$8998e03c@homepc> John K Clark wrote: > "The Avantguardian" > >> Would YOU do the job for 7 cents an hour? > > If I was currently making 6 cents an hour I would not only take > the job I'd be dancing in the street with happiness at receiving > a 15% rise, or I would be if I wasn't too weak from hunger to > do so. > > > you are treating others WORSE than you yourself >> would want to be treated. > > Yes that's true, your happiness is important but not as important > as my happiness. This pretty much sums it up doesn't it. Brett Paatsch From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 07:44:08 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:44:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <200511130651.jAD6pQe06934@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051113074408.21826.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > It's a moral paradox. If one is poor, then clearly > it is OK to shop at Walmart. What if one isn't > destitute, but isn't rolling in it either? How > well-funded can one be before shopping at Wallyworld > > should produce guilt? No it is NOT OK for poor people to shop at Wal-mart. Wal-mart is a lie. They subsidize their discounts with TAX MONEY that poor people pay as well. In the end, the poor are shooting themselves in the foot by shopping at Wal-mart. It's like the peasant thanking the feudal lord for not taking ALL the grain that the peasant grew. The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Sun Nov 13 08:02:14 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:02:14 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511121900.jACJ09e30231@tick.javien.com> <003c01c5e805$31755220$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <006a01c5e821$dfc5e3a0$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <00bb01c5e828$996a65f0$0801a8c0@EF02jack> From: "John K Clark" To: "Jack Parkinson" Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > "Jack Parkinson" > > > If, hypothetically, Wal-Mart was replaced by several thousand smaller > > independent stores, all paying their employees a decent living wage, > > and all competing to keep prices low, wouldn't the US be better > > off in overall terms? > > NO! I rather doubt that Billy Bobs Pretty Good Hardware Store or any of the > thousands of other stores in your hypothetical could match Wal-Mart's > legendary hyper efficiency; most economists agree that Wal-Mart can take > credit for a big chunk of the productivity growth America had the good > fortune to receive over the last 10 years, and productivity is the name of > the game, it is the generator of wealth. So in your world the pool of people > wanting a job would be the same but there would be less money available to > pay their salary. And consumers would be paying far more than they should > for goods. That's not a world I want to live in. > > John K Clark Your remarks do not really make sense. 1) Thousands of stores competing would make for a pretty efficient market system. Yes? 2) Where is the wealth that is being generated if more than 100,000 Wal-Mart employees are living in poverty? 3) And if your answer is: in the Walton Family vaults - how is that useful to America? 4) And if all that wealth was in distributed use across a broad range of businesses competing for labor in a free market - surely there would be more money available to pay the pool of workers? 5) How does increased productivity benefit America if it comes at a cost of increased unemployment and (in today's news here from CNN) 35 million plus American citizens living below the poverty line? Jack Parkinson From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Nov 13 08:07:11 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:07:11 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051112023633.28055.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><001f01c5e7a4$a98f22b0$d6054e0c@MyComputer><010801c5e7b0$de71afa0$d6054e0c@MyComputer><002801c5e814$914d4f40$6f064e0c@MyComputer><6.2.1.2.0.20051112235009.01e53ea0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <007501c5e822$1f099160$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <01ed01c5e829$3ff45ed0$8998e03c@homepc> John K Clark wrote: > "Jack Parkinson" > >> If, hypothetically, Wal-Mart was replaced by several thousand smaller >> independent stores, all paying their employees a decent living wage, >> and all competing to keep prices low, wouldn't the US be better >> off in overall terms? > > NO! I rather doubt that Billy Bobs Pretty Good Hardware Store or any of > the > thousands of other stores in your hypothetical could match Wal-Mart's > legendary hyper efficiency; most economists agree that Wal-Mart can take > credit for a big chunk of the productivity growth America had the good > fortune to receive over the last 10 years, and productivity is the name of > the game, it is the generator of wealth. Which Americans shared in that wealth? Is there reputable economic figures for an improvement in living standards being enjoyed by more than 50 per cent of Americans? Brett Paatsch From jonkc at att.net Sun Nov 13 08:12:52 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:12:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113073756.20973.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cf01c5e82a$17361d20$6f064e0c@MyComputer> "The Avantguardian" > The Walton family are corrupt robber barons in every sense of the word > with absolutely no sense of noblesse oblige or altruistic philanthropy. Mr. Avantguardian sir, it pains me to say this but....., you are full of shit. I estimate that Sam Walton did more to elevate the average global level of happiness on this planet in 4.2 seconds than you did in your entire life. John K Clark From megao at sasktel.net Sun Nov 13 10:28:47 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc/ MFJ-CTO) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 04:28:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <00cf01c5e82a$17361d20$6f064e0c@MyComputer> References: <20051113073756.20973.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com> <00cf01c5e82a$17361d20$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <4377155F.7080006@sasktel.net> What must be remembered is that from a government perspective the consolidation has a second side. It is easier and more efficient for government to regulate and tax a single conglomerate at will and more acceptable for the population to see it done than if there were 100,000 small retail businesses with families and communities to deal with. Yes there has been a social price to create Walmart but that can be changed at any time so long as the law has the means to be act and the citizenry have the majority will to demand. Their business model is not at fault, just the ethical nature of some of their business practices. Enron and Worldcom went too far and were put down. Wal mart must always remember that there is a line beyond which society will not tolerate monopoly. Remember Ma Bell. I'm still sad that Enron went down from the perspective that they could deliver mega projects. Just before Enron went down they had 4 billion dollars planned for limited partnership wind farms for North Dakota. The projects will eventually be done but it will take 10 extra years for the small projects to add up to the same thing as Enron could do with one corporate resolution. So I hope that the management of Walmart does heed the public view that they are nearly a social pariah before serendipity strikes and they meet the fate of Worldcom. MFJ > "The Avantguardian" > >> The Walton family are corrupt robber barons in every sense of the word >> with absolutely no sense of noblesse oblige or altruistic philanthropy. > > > Mr. Avantguardian sir, it pains me to say this but....., you are full of > shit. I estimate that Sam Walton did more to elevate the average global > level of happiness on this planet in 4.2 seconds than you did in your > entire > life. > From benboc at lineone.net Sun Nov 13 10:36:50 2005 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:36:50 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Monsanto's genetically-modified revival In-Reply-To: <200511121742.jACHg5e22784@tick.javien.com> References: <200511121742.jACHg5e22784@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <43771742.90905@lineone.net> > Monsanto only sells its GM seeds if farmers sign a contract, similar to a software end-user license Interesting. Makes me wonder what a GM Open-Source movement would be like. On the face of it, it would seem a non-starter, but i wonder... ben From benboc at lineone.net Sun Nov 13 10:46:55 2005 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:46:55 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:PARTY TODAY! Austin, Texas Saturday 11/12/05 In-Reply-To: <200511121742.jACHg5e22784@tick.javien.com> References: <200511121742.jACHg5e22784@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4377199F.7040806@lineone.net> Good party? I hope you had liquid-nitrogen ice-cream. Apparently it's the best sort. ben From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 11:01:47 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:01:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <004b01c5e81c$bf57fc70$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20051113110147.4942.qmail@web60016.mail.yahoo.com> Oh, look. Is that a soap box? Somebody wrote if you don't like Wal-Mart, don't work there. Then "Damien Broderick" wrote: > > I think the key would be, rather: DON'T BUY THERE. Then --- John K Clark wrote: > Yes, that's fine advice, if you think Wal-Mart is > evil then shop at the > little mom and pop store that overcharges the hell > out of you. I have yet another suggestion: If you don't like Wal-Mart, vote for a government which will restructure campaign finance so that the wealthy --individuals and corporations -- can't, in effect, buy the damn govt with campaign contributions. Then there might be a chance of having a govt which enforces a social contract with a core belief in the right of every Joe and Jane to a minimum standard of living -- vigorous support of gainful employment, food, housing, health care, education. The govt would support such a social contract not because it's a warm and fuzzy govt, but because the vast majority of citizens, being just such Joes and Janes who hold just such beliefs, would vote any govt out onto the street which does what our current govts do -- pay lip service to the Joes and Janes while setting up a system to enable the wealthy to suck the life out of anyone on the planet not rich enough to protect themself. Some people might call that socialism, and do so with warmth and an approving smile. Others, let's call them the spiritually challenged (unevolved? disadvantaged?), would call it socialism, with a snarl and a rictus of contempt, objecting to any interference with that aspect of their fantasy life wherein they gleefully and voraciously suck the life out of the far flung multitudes. Sadly for the multitudes, any dismay on the part of these evildoers will be at best fleeting, because a better, more just world is the fantasy, and the feasting of capitalists the reality. Have a nice day. Shop at Wal-Mart. Be glad you don't have work there,...yet. Best, Jeff Davis "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." - Samuel P. Huntington __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From bjk at imminst.org Sun Nov 13 06:29:31 2005 From: bjk at imminst.org (Bruce J. Klein) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 22:29:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst.org Conference Success Message-ID: <56e7a090817855462f32ae8814e05dd3@www.imminst.org> Conference Success! More than 150 people attended the first Immortality Institute Life Extension Conference in Atlanta, GA on Nov 5, 2005. There were a number of media and film teams covering the event. ImmInst has planned a DVD of the even to be available soon. Pictures of the conference are found here: http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=191&t=8443 Speakers power points (13) are found here: http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=SF&f=191 Randy Wicker(ImmInst Advisor) has some conference video here: http://www.randywickerreporting.blogspot.com/ Thanks again to the wonderful audience, excellent speakers, and hard working volunteers. Extended listing of "Thank Yous" here: http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=191&t=8486 Thanks again to our Conference Sponsors: $5,000 Gold Sponsor - Brian Cartmell, Cartmell Holdings LLC $4,000 Dinner Sponsor - Life Extension Foundation $3,000 Silver Sponsor - Gary C. Hudson, CEO, HMX Inc. $2,000 Bronze Sponsor - Canaca.com, Web Hosting $1,000 Patron Sponsor - Alcor Life Extension Foundation FREE COPY OF IMMINST FILM If you'd like to receive a beta-version copy of ImmInst's documentary film, Exploring Life Extension (1hr 45min), reply to this email or send an email with your physical mailing address to support at imminst.org Sincerely, ImmInst Team Please Paste following link to Un-subscribe : http://www.imminst.org/maillist/unsubscribe.php?mail=Extropy-chat at extropy.org&id=2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 11:58:43 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 12:58:43 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Monsanto's genetically-modified revival In-Reply-To: <43771742.90905@lineone.net> References: <200511121742.jACHg5e22784@tick.javien.com> <43771742.90905@lineone.net> Message-ID: <4902d9990511130358m548b7ed2p7ac0fb00db22d403@mail.gmail.com> On 11/13/05, ben wrote: > > > Monsanto only sells its GM seeds if farmers sign a contract, similar > to a software end-user license > > > Interesting. Makes me wonder what a GM Open-Source movement would be > like. On the face of it, it would seem a non-starter, but i wonder... It would be even more interesting if the Monsanto contract was similar to software EULAs, that are presented AFTER the purchase is made and are therefore invalid. Some kind of leaflet hidden among the seeds? Alfio From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Sun Nov 13 12:16:43 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:16:43 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511131102.jADB2He00987@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <005901c5e84c$1ee30480$0201a8c0@JPAcer> > "spike" said: > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in > France) > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Message-ID: <200511130208.jAD28He08413 at tick.javien.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK > ... >> Production jobs being moved overseas to low wage economies is still a >> problem, no matter the credentials of the person pointing it out. BillK > > If production is done by nanotech miracle factories, > the result is exactly the same as offshoring, is it > not? Yet we don't dread that at all, we fondly > anticipate it. We would need to come up with a > new name for manufacturing jobs lost to nanotech. > Downsourcing? In-shoring? > > spike There is at least a potentially big difference between NMT and off-shore manufacture... The politics of the situation would determine the extent of the difference. By way of illustration, I would think the 'new name' you mention would depend a lot on the cost of nano-production to the end-user. We might call it 'price-gouging' if the means of production was limited to an elite few. We might call it 'a new era of accessible consumer goods' if the technology was widely available. And we might call it 'a miracle' - if it was open to all... If it WAS open to all - then no-one should lose. Everyone would have access to whatever they wanted or needed. OK, huge corporations might curl up and die - but even their constituent stockholders and management would have no cause for complaint if their lifestyles were not threatened - and were even perhaps further enhanced by a manufacturing technology operable at individual/household level. Jack Parkinson From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 12:25:27 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 04:25:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <00cf01c5e82a$17361d20$6f064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > Mr. Avantguardian sir, it pains me to say this > but....., you are full of > shit. I am glad it pains one of us, John. Perhaps I am full of shit but I prefer calling it conscience. But what good does it do me? You may be right, I should trade it in for some cheap knick-nacks from China. > I estimate that Sam Walton did more to elevate > the average global > level of happiness on this planet in 4.2 seconds > than you did in your entire > life. Do you measure your happiness in the saving of a few pennies here and there? Or did you mean the 4.2 seconds it took for his death rattle to issue forth from his dying lips? Those 4.2 seconds sure made his ungrateful kids happy. It may have given the numerous competitors that he bankrupted over the course of his life a brief moment of satisfaction. And I am sure it gave some passing joy to all the employees that he fired to avoid promoting. Of course, MY life has yet to run its course. You are correct in guessing that I will probably never be as rich as Sam Walton was but in some ways I consider my calling to be somewhat higher than that of a penny pinching merchant. And I can assure you that Sam Walton never saw the sublime beauty of a lymphocyte on the prowl for a cancer cell. You must be a very powerful psychic indeed to see so far into the past and the future and be able to so thouroughly weigh the lives of two men from different times that you have never met. Then again, in the eyes of one accustomed to instant gratification, even dead maple trees look far grander than acorns do they not? The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Sun Nov 13 12:57:00 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:57:00 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511131102.jADB2He00987@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <006e01c5e851$c0385740$0201a8c0@JPAcer> "John K Clark" wrote: Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) "The Avantguardian" said: >> The Walton family are corrupt robber barons in every sense of the word >> with absolutely no sense of noblesse oblige or altruistic philanthropy. >Mr. Avantguardian sir, it pains me to say this but....., you are full of >shit. I estimate that Sam Walton did more to elevate the average global >level of happiness on this planet in 4.2 seconds than you did in your >entire >life. > John K Clark Stuart's argument on Wal Mart had the "three r's." It was was researched, rational and referenced. Your response does not address the points he raised, does makes a glib subjective judgement and relies on derogation and emotive language rather than facts in rebuttal. I take it that you are finding your position on this issue indefensible? Jack Parkinson From pbreyer at t-online.de Sun Nov 13 13:03:08 2005 From: pbreyer at t-online.de (Peter Breyer) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:03:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Monsanto's genetically-modified revival Message-ID: <000001c5e852$9838d1b0$d46eab54@prometheus> Alfio Puglisi: > Interesting. Makes me wonder what a GM Open-Source movement would be > like. On the face of it, it would seem a non-starter, but i wonder... Sure, the entry-level requirements for serious bio research are higher than for programming a P2P client, but still, such an open-source biology already exists. Look here: http://www.cambia.org/daisy/cambia/563.html "BiOS (Biological Open Source) Licenses draw inspiration from the open source software movement but are adapted for patented technologies. They create a "protected commons" in which an invention can be improved by the ideas of many, without exclusive capture by any one entity. CAMBIA has seeded this movement with its own technologies (see below), and other technology owners may also provide licenses to their technologies using this framework." ...and a Wired article on BIOS: Open-Source Biology Evolves By David Cohn Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,66289,00.html 02:00 AM Jan. 17, 2005 PT To push research forward, scientists need to draw from the best data and innovations in their field. Much of the work, however, is patented, leaving many academic and nonprofit researchers hamstrung. But an Australian organization advocating an open-source approach to biology hopes to free up biological data without violating intellectual property rights. The battle lies between biotech companies like multinational Monsanto, who can grant or deny the legal use of biological information, and independent organizations like The Biological Innovation for Open Society, or BIOS, and Science Commons. The indies want to give scientists free access to the latest methods in biotechnology through the web. BIOS will soon launch an open-source platform that promises to free up rights to patented DNA sequences and the methods needed to manipulate biological material. Users must only follow BIOS' "rules of engagement," which are similar to those used by the open-source software community. "There are technologies you need to innovate and then there are the innovations themselves," said Richard Jefferson, founder and director of BIOS in Canberra, Australia. "But those can only happen when there is fair access to the technologies." Just like open-source software, open-source biology users own the patents to their creations, but cannot hinder others from using the original shared information to develop similar products. Any improvements of the shared methods of BIOS, the Science Commons or other open-source communities must be made public, as well as any health hazards that are discovered. BIOS has called on Brian Behlendorf, CTO of ColabNet, to create the web tools the open-source community platform will run on. Those should be up in the coming weeks. Nipping at its heels is the Science Commons. The outgrowth project of Creative Commons will have a hand in all areas of science, not just the life sciences like BIOS, and is getting ready to launch its open-source community in the next two to three weeks, said John Wilbanks, executive director of Science Commons. Wilbanks sees Science Commons and other open-source communities as a "neutral ground" for people to decide how much control over a patent they want to maintain or control. "Say you are a holder of patents and you want to make them available, you should be able to do that without having to call a lawyer," said Wilbanks. While free access to biological information will benefit those doing research, companies who have invested millions in patents, on the other hand, won't perform expensive groundbreaking research without a guarantee that their intellectual property rights would be upheld. "Patents attract investors, providing the resources necessary to bring the product to market," said Brigid Quinn, deputy director of public affairs with the U.S. patent office. "Patents are and have always been an important part of this country's economic fabric." On the contrary, Jefferson believes patent restrictions have compromised billions of people who should be benefiting from new diagnostic tests or improved genetically modified crops and medicines. For example, biologists in Kenya might be eager to create a genetically modified sweet potato that could allow farmers to use fewer chemical fertilizers. But if a company owns all or part of the gene sequence, DNA fragment or the mechanism in question, the scientists' hands are tied unless they can pay a licensing fee. The corporations that own such patents won't invest in research unless they know a market is waiting for the product. "Perhaps professors in Kenya can start a company, perhaps they can make $300,000 a year, but that's just not on the charts for Monsanto," said Roger Brent of Berkeley's Molecular Sciences Institute. Under an open-source contract between scientists, just like open-source software, developers would be free to use these methods to create new products. The products themselves would be proprietary, but the techniques and components used to make them would be open to all, meaning more bio-products, competition, smaller markets and faster improvements, Jefferson said. If Jefferson and his fellow rebel scientists succeed, biotech companies stand to lose their monopoly on creating integrated biological systems. But he believes human health, safety and standards of living will all suffer under the present patent structure. Some fear that making the latest methods of genetic modification public will provide terrorists with the know-how to concoct new bioweapons in the comfort of their own garage. "Biological knowledge can be used for good or ill and unfortunately it's easier to make a biological weapon than it is defenses," said David Seagrest, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies who focuses on biology and terrorism. With free instructions on how to cook up new, improved toxins, open-source biology could pose a threat to homeland security. Jefferson, however, distinguishes between having access to biotech components and the legal license to use them. The techniques for biohacking are already public -- they can be found in IP contracts -- it's just not legal to apply them. "The people who have malice are going to do it irrespective of whether or not it's legal," said Jefferson. Brent and Drew Endy, assistant professor of biology at MIT, who first coined the phrase "open source biology" at Berkeley's MSI, echoed this distinction. "Right now anybody who wants can re-synthesize the SARS virus," explained Brent. Brent, Endy and researcher Robert Carlson sounded a rallying cry for open-source biology at MSI in 1999. The idea was to give researchers and scientists free access to the information needed to invent new biotech products that could benefit their communities and keep the world safe. Five years later the dream of open-source software is becoming a reality. "This is just the kernel of open-source biology," Jefferson said. Jefferson sees open-source biology as part of science's evolution, the next logical step for science after the open access movement, in which organizations like the Public Library of Science made scientific journals freely available to anyone on the internet. Previously, thousands of dollars were charged annually for subscriptions by journals like Nature and Science. Now people will be able to perform the same experiments found in these free online journals and become part of the peer review and research process themselves. By broadening the base of people who could hack DNA, scientists like Brent, Endy and Jefferson believe the hacker culture values like elegant design, creativity and sharing beneficial works of engineering for all, will spread to biology. "I think those are virtues which the existing world of science and engineering could gain a lot from," Brent said. From amara at amara.com Sun Nov 13 16:05:42 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:05:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] (not-so) Stupid Comics Message-ID: Stupid Comics http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/index.html These comics are hilarious -- and relevant to this group, as here in satirical form is a good example of a 1950s meme still running around today illustrating the ever-present fear of some people towards science. Amara ------------------------------------------------------------- (from the commentary) "But there are lots of other spirit-filled folk out there toiling away at the drawing table trying to get people to come home to Jesus. One of the more interesting is this anonymous gem of the "cheesecake" school of saving souls, FORBIDDEN PLANET. [...] That's right, it's a Christian interpretation of the classic 50s sci-fi flick starring Leslie Nielsen and a guy in a robot suit. But what makes this tract special is the slick, commerical artwork that prominently features good lookin' babes." (from the comic) "So this was a movie with a meaning about how science had learned to recreate the thoughts of your own mind and cause them to materilise. But they began to create evil images and monsters and demons and this big one in particular that was going around causing destruction, killing people, and finally almost killed the professor himself. And it seemed to hint that the higher civilisation that had existed on the planet before had done the same thing and had used these monsters at first to protect them from other invaders and so on, but finally they turned on them and wiped them all out! So the moral is that the evil imaginations of evil minds can be recreated by science and have been today. So that now science, like the scientist on that planet, has created a monster that looks like it's about to destroy them -- the Atomic Bom! -- The atomic monster that has come out of the evil imaginations of their evil minds by the power of the Devil, really spiritual power." ------------------------------------------------------------- I actually _liked_ The Forbidden Planet.. Robbie the Robot was cool. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "What I find most disheartening is the thought that somewhere out there our galaxy has been deleted from somebody else's sample." -- Alec Boksenberg [on the occasion of his 60th birthday celebration] From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 13 17:22:49 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 09:22:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > Dead cheap molecular manufacturing could end such strife - in the right > hands (that is - everyone's hands) But, if and when it arrives - it's > deliberate restriction to a privileged few could also give us strife we > never before considered even possible. > Unfortunately - I share your gloomy outlook. Cheap ubiquitous molecular manufacturing could certainly end the strife over scarcity of subsistence level resources, but only if used wisely. To put such power in everyone's hands, without first having a framework of rational interdependence, would be like providing gasoline to children playing with matches. - Jef From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Nov 13 18:08:44 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:08:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Re: And Bush global climate change and Nuc? Message-ID: <4377812C.6070100@mindspring.com> On 13/11/2005, at 3:13 PM, Scott Peterson wrote: > At 07:23 PM 11/12/2005, Tony Mills wrote: > >> Agreed- If you need quickly delivered peak power- the option of choice is >> hydro- ie let water fall from a place you've already pumped it up >> to. You >> can use H2 electrolysed from water by renewable power for continious >> power, >> or you can simply pump water up a hill. But these are problems for >> about a >> decade hence when renewbles make a up a larger proportion of power >> generation. At the moment they are expensive options- but doable. I don't >> think it is too optimistic to think H2 generated by electrolysis will >> become more cost effective over that decade. > > > Yes, but I'm not talking just short term power generation. We have > peaker units today to do that, but that power often costs 10 times or > more the cost of regular power plants and they only produce a small > fraction of the total load to carry the network load until cheaper > units can come on line or the demand drops. > > I'm talking longer term for the week(s) the sun doesn't shine or the > wind it too fast or not fast enough or just doesn't blow. I just > don't see any significant amount of generating capacity being replaced > until you can find substitute power that is reliable. Biomass might, > but remains unproven in large scale deployment. It's also dependent on > availability of large amounts of fairly consistent material. Wood, > paper, cow shit or whatever. This requires long term planning and > economic coordination. > >> Which will presumably be available in 30 years at the earliest?. The >> price >> per kw of renewable energy is going down, as it is more widely deployed. >> The nuc industry has been promising safe nuc power designs for 30 years, >> without result- So I wouldn't hold my breath. > > > It could be sooner. GE and other companies have offered a number of > designs for reactors that are self limiting, much cleaner and > smaller. We know what it takes to build plants now and developing a > set of consistent set of guidelines for design and operation would be > a lot easier. > > >> Nuc power is available outside the US, and you would think 40 years >> might be >> sufficient to sort out the above problems, at least in one country - But >> even if they were fixed there are a few fundamental problems- Waste- >> millions of years of it- decommissioning- runs in to billions of $- >> then the >> decommissed reactor parts have to be stored at medium (and high) level >> repositories. > > > Seventeen percent of the worlds electricity is generated by nuclear > power. As far as waste, a large part is definitional. Most low-grade > waste is simply a product that came from a nuclear plant. Had it come > from somewhere else, it would be simple trash. The issue of fuel rods > and other high-level radiation waste is proving to be more of a > political problem. Much of that is of the NIMBY variety, but it's one > that does need to be resolved. > >> But why go nuc anyway? It is not cost competitive with renewables, >> and given >> the lowering costs of renewables, and the high fixed costs of nuc (waste >> storage, construction and decomissioning) is unlikely to ever be. > > > Main reason, biased figures. A nuclear plant or even fossil fuel > plants will reliably generate power 24/7 for months at a time. When > supplemental power costs are factored into the "renewable" plant costs > they don't look nearly as attractive. > > I'm not saying nuclear is cheap but it's also biased because of the > huge cost overruns, upgrades and regulatory costs. More standardized > regulations and plant designs should significantly reduce those costs. > > Scott Peterson You are dead right Scott, it's not peak load that is the real problem, it's base load. It takes a very large amount of energy to keep a modern society running and that energy has to have at least two fundamental attributes - it has to be economically viable and it has to be reliable, and, of course, It should also be as environmentally benign as possible. By far the vast majority of (non transportation) energy in the world is generated by plants using steam to turn turbines and thus generators. Steam requires water to be boiled, which requires a heat source, and these are many. Burning fossil fuels (coal, oil, gas), burning plant matter (biomass), decay of radioactive elements (nuclear), focused solar radiation via mirrors (solar thermal), using hot water from existing volcanic related sites, of pumping water through sub-surface hot rocks (geothermal). All of these have advantages AND disadvantages. most of them are reliable enough for base load production 24 hours per day; some of them are economically viable, and; none of them are totally environmentally benign (though some much more so than others). The next most common process is hydro, which still uses water but at ambient temperatures, but is constrained by various geographical (and environmental) factors such as mountains and rainfall. Then we have the non-steam/water 'renewables', wind, solar photovoltaic and tidal being the most common. None of these is reliable enough for base load production, though they (along with some of those in the steam cycle) have a useful place in the overall mix, as does better energy efficiency technologies. But they will never be the main source of the energy we need to keep functioning. As Scott so correctly pointed out, if you have too much of the unreliable renewables in the mix, you then have to keep what the power industry calls a 'spinning reserve" continuously on line (but not on load), so you don't save much (if anything) on any front. Then we get to hydrogen, which Tim seems to think is the long term solution. We all know that H is the most common element in the universe, and burning it causes no serious pollution risk - its byproduct is water (albeit water vapour is by far the most common greenhouse gas in the environment). Certainly hydrogen is common enough, but it does not exist as a resource in its natural state (not on Earth anyway), it has to be manufactured. Yes it is benign at the end use stage (just as electricity is) but at the manufacturing stage it is far from that. In the last Skeptic, I published an article on the Hydrogen Economy by an expert in the field, a former divisional chief of the CSIRO division that investigates such matters, including fuel cells. Very sobering reading for anyone who sees hydrogen as the holy grail for energy, and I would be happy to send a copy to interested people off line. Like anything else, it has its place, but a universal panacea it ain't. Taking all the factors into consideration, nuclear electricity production is probably going to come into its own in the future as the best available method with the least downside and we had better get used to it. Barry Williams the Skeptic of Oz -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia/Secret War in Laos veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Nov 13 18:24:00 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:24:00 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113110147.4942.qmail@web60016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006801c5e87f$6b9bcb30$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Jeff Davis" > > Have a nice day. Shop at Wal-Mart. Be glad you don't > have work there,...yet. Right-o. Wal-Mart and Milk of Human Kindness may appear together on PR-type commercials, but in real life it has been more like this (and, in looking over the long list of other lawsuits against Wal-Mart available online, one finds the stories tell a consistently dreary tale of shameful abuses): http://afl-cio.org/mediacenter/prsptm/pr04052005b.cfm Wal-Mart Sucks: http://www.poormojo.org/pmjadaily/archives/002286.html Olga From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 13 18:35:56 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:35:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <200511130651.jAD6pQe06934@tick.javien.com> References: <004b01c5e81c$bf57fc70$6f064e0c@MyComputer> <200511130651.jAD6pQe06934@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <22360fa10511131035m1748c69ftf8f72e87efaf98be@mail.gmail.com> On 11/12/05, spike wrote: > > It's a moral paradox. If one is poor, then clearly > it is OK to shop at Walmart. What if one isn't > destitute, but isn't rolling in it either? How > well-funded can one be before shopping at Wallyworld > should produce guilt? > Like all paradox, it results from seeing the system at an insufficient level of context. At a higher level these pieces have to fit (and new paradox can then arise.) It's the same insufficiency of context that leads people to see the iterated prisoner's dilemma game as a paradox, that leads economists to conclude from a logical logical cost/benefit analysis that it is irrational for individuals to invest the effort necessary to go out and vote, and that leads individuals and businesses to compete to the extent that they ruin the very environment--the commons--in which they must interact. A pragmatic description of morality might be "that decision-making which promotes growth of subjective values over increasingly objective scope (of time, interactees, and types of interactions.) Extended growth of Self entails growth of Other. Ruinious competition serves no one. So, returning from the abstract and back to the question at hand, it is moral for an individual to deal with Walmart to the extent that their overall investment goes toward the kind of world they would prefer to create. - Jef From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:23:52 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:23:52 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: even if Arab poverty were terminated In-Reply-To: <006501c5e6c8$f9289040$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511111320.jABDKee06122@tick.javien.com> <006501c5e6c8$f9289040$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/11/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > Al Brooks said: > Subject: [extropy-chat] even if Arab poverty were terminated > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Message-ID: <20051110194714.93152.qmail at web51605.mail.yahoo.com> > > >If poverty were to be terminated in Arab nations, Arabs would still go to > >war. The koran was >written in the 7th century, so for over 1,300 years > >Arabs have beem reading advice such as to lie >in wait for infidels & > jews > >to ambush them at every opportunity. To attack the enemies of Islam is > >an > >unambiguous part of the radical Arab heritage, and though radical Arab > >nationalists constitute >only a small fraction of Arabs, sympathy for > >radicals is not inconsiderable. > >Of course ending poverty wouldn't hurt at all, but you can see in Western > >nations that >fundamentalist xians and orthodox jews becoming wealthy > does > >not substantially alter their >extreme religious views. > > I find the timescale quite interesting. Islam is in its 13th century. What > was Christianity doing in that period? Militant crusades, repression with > extreme violence and laying the groundwork for the inquisition. > Becoming wealthy does not alter the views of extreme pro-lifers now > either. > > Plus, it's taken us some 300yrs to pull the teeth of Xianity to the point where one can dissent openly and not be burned. The job hasn't even begun with Islam. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at att.net Sun Nov 13 20:50:07 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:50:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> "The Avantguardian" > Do you measure your happiness in the saving of a few > pennies here and there? Yes, that is one of the keys of Sam Walton's success, money is the way to keep score, it lets you know if you're wining or losing the war on poverty. But I was thinking more of the formation of all those third world sweatshops he encouraged; they saved far more people from starvation than Mother Theresa ever did, and they lifted others (like in South Korea and Formosa and Singapore and a few hundred million in China) from a life of degradation to the middle class. > I will probably never be as rich as Sam Walton was but in some ways I > consider my calling to be somewhat higher than that of a penny > pinching merchant. And I can assure you that Sam Walton never > saw the sublime beauty of a lymphocyte on the prowl for a cancer cell. How poetic, how moving, how mystical, how brainless. Sam Walton gave the poor a way to climb out of poverty, you offer them nothing but your tears. > Perhaps I am full of shit but I prefer calling it conscience. Do me a favor and honestly ask yourself one question, what is really your top priority in this matter? Is it solving the problem of world poverty or is it showing off to the world what a caring empathetic man you are? No need to tell me your answer because I don't need to be a psychic to know what you will say, but tell yourself the truth. And don't worry, I won't hear. John K Clark From kevin at kevinfreels.com Sun Nov 13 22:43:21 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:43:21 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511121900.jACJ09e30231@tick.javien.com><003c01c5e805$31755220$0201a8c0@JPAcer><006a01c5e821$dfc5e3a0$6f064e0c@MyComputer> <00bb01c5e828$996a65f0$0801a8c0@EF02jack> Message-ID: <001d01c5e8a3$a6bcc6f0$0100a8c0@kevin> Excuse me, but may I ask a question? Exactly how is it Walmart's responsibility to ensure that people have jobs and wealth? Is it not enough that because of them I save hundreds or even thousands of dollars per year? Since when did the size of a multi-natioinal corporation mean that you were required to provide for the financial security of a nation? Isn't it this kind of thought from labor unions that pushed the price of crappy American cars up to the price of a small house? Exactly how does the nation benefit from increased prices that are used to defray wage increases? When I go into walmart I see several things. I see employees that other companies simply would not hire. I see elderly people who failed to plan for retirement. I see young people starting out in the job market. I do not see middle aged people of average or above education age in their prime child rearing years working at this place. Sure, there are a few, but that is by choice. It's the same thing with McDonalds. How many people are employed at McDs? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Parkinson" To: "ExI chat list" ; "John K Clark" Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 2:02 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > > From: "John K Clark" > To: "Jack Parkinson" > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > > > > "Jack Parkinson" > > > > > If, hypothetically, Wal-Mart was replaced by several thousand smaller > > > independent stores, all paying their employees a decent living wage, > > > and all competing to keep prices low, wouldn't the US be better > > > off in overall terms? > > > > NO! I rather doubt that Billy Bobs Pretty Good Hardware Store or any of > the > > thousands of other stores in your hypothetical could match Wal-Mart's > > legendary hyper efficiency; most economists agree that Wal-Mart can take > > credit for a big chunk of the productivity growth America had the good > > fortune to receive over the last 10 years, and productivity is the name of > > the game, it is the generator of wealth. So in your world the pool of > people > > wanting a job would be the same but there would be less money available to > > pay their salary. And consumers would be paying far more than they should > > for goods. That's not a world I want to live in. > > > > John K Clark > > Your remarks do not really make sense. > > 1) Thousands of stores competing would make for a pretty efficient market > system. Yes? > > 2) Where is the wealth that is being generated if more than 100,000 Wal-Mart > employees are living in poverty? > > 3) And if your answer is: in the Walton Family vaults - how is that useful > to America? > > 4) And if all that wealth was in distributed use across a broad range of > businesses competing for labor in a free market - surely there would be more > money available to pay the pool of workers? > > 5) How does increased productivity benefit America if it comes at a cost of > increased unemployment and (in today's news here from CNN) 35 million plus > American citizens living below the poverty line? > > Jack Parkinson > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From rhanson at gmu.edu Sun Nov 13 22:42:38 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:42:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051113173534.02de0e70@gmu.edu> At 11:09 PM 11/11/2005, Hal Finney wrote: >One person I wish would start a blog is Robin Hanson. Gee Hal, one person I wish would start a blog is Hal Finney. Could we make a deal? :) Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 22:47:54 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:47:54 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: even if Arab poverty were terminated In-Reply-To: References: <200511111320.jABDKee06122@tick.javien.com> <006501c5e6c8$f9289040$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/13/05, Dirk Bruere wrote: > Plus, it's taken us some 300yrs to pull the teeth of Xianity to the point > where one can dissent openly and not be burned. > The job hasn't even begun with Islam. > I doubt that the teeth of Xianity have been pulled yet. At least not in every country. They may not be able to burn dissenters, but they can get you sacked and your career ruined if you cross the hierarchy. In USA and Ireland until recently priests were permitted to abuse children with little done to stop them. The latest Irish scandal reports: "Before 1990, the panel found, the police were reluctant to investigate claims of sexual abuse by the clergy because they were fearful of challenging the privileged position of Roman Catholic Church authorities." BillK From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:07:45 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:07:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051113173534.02de0e70@gmu.edu> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20051113173534.02de0e70@gmu.edu> Message-ID: <5366105b0511131507y5014dd53r202dc49e9b484141@mail.gmail.com> On 11/13/05, Robin Hanson wrote: > At 11:09 PM 11/11/2005, Hal Finney wrote: > >One person I wish would start a blog is Robin Hanson. > > Gee Hal, one person I wish would start a blog is Hal Finney. Could > we make a deal? :) > How about paired public New Year's Resolutions as the first blog post from each of you? From joel.pitt at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:19:43 2005 From: joel.pitt at gmail.com (Joel Peter William Pitt) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:19:43 +1300 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <5366105b0511131507y5014dd53r202dc49e9b484141@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20051113173534.02de0e70@gmu.edu> <5366105b0511131507y5014dd53r202dc49e9b484141@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps someone should do a blog post on a list of transhumanist blogs? I would do it on mine (http://ferrouswheel.blogspot.com/) but it is rather low key at the moment and not specifically on transhumanist topics. But failing anyone else volunteering I'll collect all the blogs in this thread and anyone else can forward their blog URL, title, and alias to me if they want it listed. Cheers, Joel On 11/14/05, Jay Dugger wrote: > On 11/13/05, Robin Hanson wrote: > > At 11:09 PM 11/11/2005, Hal Finney wrote: > > >One person I wish would start a blog is Robin Hanson. > > > > Gee Hal, one person I wish would start a blog is Hal Finney. Could > > we make a deal? :) > > > > How about paired public New Year's Resolutions as the first blog post > from each of you? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Sun Nov 13 23:33:48 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:33:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20051113173534.02de0e70@gmu.edu> <5366105b0511131507y5014dd53r202dc49e9b484141@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4377CD5C.5050507@goldenfuture.net> Mine is at http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ ("Posthumanity Rising"). Of course, I've not added an entry since June, so I think I'd better get writing. Joseph Joel Peter William Pitt wrote: >Perhaps someone should do a blog post on a list of transhumanist blogs? > >I would do it on mine (http://ferrouswheel.blogspot.com/) but it is >rather low key at the moment and not specifically on transhumanist >topics. > >But failing anyone else volunteering I'll collect all the blogs in >this thread and anyone else can forward their blog URL, title, and >alias to me if they want it listed. > >Cheers, >Joel > >On 11/14/05, Jay Dugger wrote: > > >>On 11/13/05, Robin Hanson wrote: >> >> >>>At 11:09 PM 11/11/2005, Hal Finney wrote: >>> >>> >>>>One person I wish would start a blog is Robin Hanson. >>>> >>>> >>>Gee Hal, one person I wish would start a blog is Hal Finney. Could >>>we make a deal? :) >>> >>> >>> >>How about paired public New Year's Resolutions as the first blog post >>from each of you? >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:55:17 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:55:17 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: even if Arab poverty were terminated In-Reply-To: References: <200511111320.jABDKee06122@tick.javien.com> <006501c5e6c8$f9289040$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: On 11/13/05, BillK wrote: > > On 11/13/05, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > Plus, it's taken us some 300yrs to pull the teeth of Xianity to the > point > > where one can dissent openly and not be burned. > > The job hasn't even begun with Islam. > > > > I doubt that the teeth of Xianity have been pulled yet. At least not > in every country. They may not be able to burn dissenters, but they > can get you sacked and your career ruined if you cross the hierarchy. Not in any civilised nation that I know of. In USA and Ireland until recently priests were permitted to abuse > children with little done to stop them. > > The latest Irish scandal reports: > "Before 1990, the panel found, the police were reluctant to > investigate claims of sexual abuse by the clergy because they were > fearful of challenging the privileged position of Roman Catholic > Church authorities." > > < > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/13/international/europe/13ireland.html?pagewanted=1 > > > > Well, imagine what it was like in 'the good old days'. Like I've said elsewhere, they (Judeo/Xian/Islam) are poisonous creeds. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Nov 14 00:09:25 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:09:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <001d01c5e8a3$a6bcc6f0$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <200511121900.jACJ09e30231@tick.javien.com> <003c01c5e805$31755220$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <006a01c5e821$dfc5e3a0$6f064e0c@MyComputer> <00bb01c5e828$996a65f0$0801a8c0@EF02jack> <001d01c5e8a3$a6bcc6f0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051113184625.07426928@unreasonable.com> kevinfreels wrote: >When I go into walmart I see several things. I see employees that other >companies simply would not hire. I see elderly people who failed to plan for >retirement. I see young people starting out in the job market. I also see: - cheerful employees (not everyone, but more than in most other stores) - people shopping for whom the price difference means the difference between having and doing without - military families shopping -- in part because of the prices, in part because of the respect accorded them (go to the greeting card aisle and see the row of specialty cards to send to loved ones in the service) - guns and ammo for sale -- after places like K-Mart bowed to pressure and pulled them (and the ammo is there on an open shelf) - cheaply priced quality name-brands like Linksys, Stanley, or Honda - constant business innovation - lots of competition from nearly 100 oversized stores within a few minutes (we have Barnes & Noble a block from Borders, Circuit City sharing a parking lot with Best Buy, etc.) *and* local non-chain stores that hold their own -- David. From nanogirl at halcyon.com Mon Nov 14 00:38:58 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:38:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20051113173534.02de0e70@gmu.edu> <5366105b0511131507y5014dd53r202dc49e9b484141@mail.gmail.com> <4377CD5C.5050507@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: <005601c5e8b3$edf19630$0300a8c0@Nano> My max animation blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ My James Lewis progress blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Bloch To: ExI chat list Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] List member blogs Mine is at http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ ("Posthumanity Rising"). Of course, I've not added an entry since June, so I think I'd better get writing. Joseph Joel Peter William Pitt wrote: >Perhaps someone should do a blog post on a list of transhumanist blogs? > >I would do it on mine (http://ferrouswheel.blogspot.com/) but it is >rather low key at the moment and not specifically on transhumanist >topics. > >But failing anyone else volunteering I'll collect all the blogs in >this thread and anyone else can forward their blog URL, title, and >alias to me if they want it listed. > >Cheers, >Joel > >On 11/14/05, Jay Dugger wrote: > > >>On 11/13/05, Robin Hanson wrote: >> >> >>>At 11:09 PM 11/11/2005, Hal Finney wrote: >>> >>> >>>>One person I wish would start a blog is Robin Hanson. >>>> >>>> >>>Gee Hal, one person I wish would start a blog is Hal Finney. Could >>>we make a deal? :) >>> >>> >>> >>How about paired public New Year's Resolutions as the first blog post >>from each of you? >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 14 01:26:42 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:26:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <22360fa10511131035m1748c69ftf8f72e87efaf98be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200511140126.jAE1Qoe30170@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > > On 11/12/05, spike wrote: > > > > It's a moral paradox. If one is poor, then clearly > > it is OK to shop at Walmart... > > > > Like all paradox, it results from seeing the system at an insufficient > level of context. At a higher level these pieces have to fit (and new > paradox can then arise.)... > - Jef Thanks Jef for the insight that a new paradox can then arise. If we call out Walmart, we must include other places that are lousy places to work. How about Fry's Electronics? The idea was a good one: run an electronics store like you would a grocery store, plenty of cash registers to reduce the checkout time (our local Fry's has 60 going simultaneously, 60!), the lowest cost employees that can manage to show up to work, enormous volume sales, etc. So Fry's and Walmart. But wait, what about Target? Salvation Army? McDonalds? A number of paradoxes arise. Assume half of the Walmart employees live below the poverty level: Does it still count if they are unemployable *anywhere else* besides Walmart? Would they stay at Walmart if they could get a job elsewhere? Why? Would they not still be below the poverty line if they had no job at all? What if they live below the poverty level but are part-time workers by choice? Do they count? Do we measure "living below poverty level" by the amount of money they earn? If so what about those who have a home and no debts, so they can live just fine on the income that is defined as poverty level? An example would be the retired greeters, who may have a paid-off house and a paid-off car already. Do they count? How do you count people who would be above the poverty level if single but they have children, which puts them below the poverty level as a family. Walmart isn't allowed to pay more because of one's family status. Suppose we decided, as a society, to ruin Walmart by collectively not shopping there. OK, Wallyworld is gone. But now there is a new retailer that is at the bottom of the heap for how it treats workers, so let's nuke that one too. But now a new one is again the worst place in the world to work. No matter how many times we lather, rinse and repeat, somebody has to be Walmart. Or what? Suggestions welcome. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 14 02:12:38 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:12:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <200511140126.jAE1Qoe30170@tick.javien.com> References: <22360fa10511131035m1748c69ftf8f72e87efaf98be@mail.gmail.com> <200511140126.jAE1Qoe30170@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <22360fa10511131812y3133c84bqe175c2415cd4587@mail.gmail.com> On 11/13/05, spike wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > > > > On 11/12/05, spike wrote: > > > > > > It's a moral paradox. If one is poor, then clearly > > > it is OK to shop at Walmart... > > > > > > > Like all paradox, it results from seeing the system at an insufficient > > level of context. At a higher level these pieces have to fit (and new > > paradox can then arise.)... > > - Jef > > Thanks Jef for the insight that a new paradox can then arise. Glad I could contribute that particular insight. ;-) > > If we call out Walmart, we must include other places that are > lousy places to work. How about Fry's Electronics? The idea > was a good one: run an electronics store like you would a > grocery store, plenty of cash registers to reduce the checkout > time (our local Fry's has 60 going simultaneously, 60!), the > lowest cost employees that can manage to show up to work, enormous > volume sales, etc. So Fry's and Walmart. But wait, what about > Target? Salvation Army? McDonalds? > > > Suppose we decided, as a society, to ruin Walmart by > collectively not shopping there. OK, Wallyworld is > gone. But now there is a new retailer that is at > the bottom of the heap for how it treats workers, so > let's nuke that one too. But now a new one is again > the worst place in the world to work. No matter > how many times we lather, rinse and repeat, somebody > has to be Walmart. > > Or what? Suggestions welcome. Glad also that you reframed it away from being about "moral" choices and toward being about relatively desirable places to work and trade. When the system works well, with all agents having sufficient freedom to adapt, the system will tend to ratchet in the desired direction providing growth for all. If we find ourselves locked into a system that is out of balance--the ruinous competition mentioned earlier--then we must hope that soon enough in the larger context our current system will be perturbed such that we can continue to play. For example, Walmart's cheap and standard low-end products being outsold due to a greater variety of more specialized goods being offered and transacted via Internet, or Microsoft losing its dominance by being outmaneuvered by a more agile company that gives aways most of it's product. In the real world, we're gaining more and more access to the larger context and it's becoming less and less likely that any company, locality or state can hold a monopoly for long. What I see lacking is popular recognition that neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism is going to be effective enough to survive. A more effective, higher level of organization will combine the strengths of a diverse free market under a shared framework that amplifies our awareness, and thus our decision-making, beyond individual capabilities. - Jef From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Nov 14 02:15:08 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:15:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <200511140126.jAE1Qoe30170@tick.javien.com> References: <22360fa10511131035m1748c69ftf8f72e87efaf98be@mail.gmail.com> <200511140126.jAE1Qoe30170@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051113210616.076abc40@unreasonable.com> Spike wrote: >If we call out Walmart, we must include other places that are >lousy places to work. How about Fry's Electronics? The idea >was a good one: run an electronics store like you would a >grocery store, plenty of cash registers to reduce the checkout >time (our local Fry's has 60 going simultaneously, 60!), the >lowest cost employees that can manage to show up to work, enormous >volume sales, etc. So Fry's and Walmart. But wait, what about >Target? Salvation Army? McDonalds? And while you're at it, take out most bookstores and libraries. They typically pay less than other employers do, because they know most of their employees are willing to work for less in order to spend their workday surrounded by books. I'd expect the same at other retailers whose goods resonate with their staff, e.g., music, musical instrument, gun, hobbyist, craft, comics, coin, and woodworking stores. -- David. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 02:42:03 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:42:03 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Transhumanism" tag, was "List member blogs" Message-ID: <5366105b0511131842j9ef9675lff98284515580f@mail.gmail.com> Sunday, 13 November 2005 Hello all: I've added all the blog links from this thread to my del.icio.us bookmarks. They all have common tags of "transhumanism" and "blog". You can find the list from my bookmarks here: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger/blog+transhumanism http://del.icio.us/rss/jay.dugger/blog+transhumanism (feed for the list) You can find all bookmarks so tagged and a feed for them at the following links. http://del.icio.us/tags/blog+transhumanism http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/blog+transhumanism If you use a social bookmarking service such as del.icio.us, you can contribute to the overall list by bookmarking and tagging blogs you associate with transhumanism. (Hint, hint--JPWP, A.G.) No need to keep a single list with someone maintaining it for so long as their interest lasts. Just act in your own best interest, and the service handles the rest. If your blog doesn't completely deal with transhumanist themes, consider tagging applicable posts with the Technorati tag "transhumanism". You can find a list of posts so tagged here: http://technorati.com/tag/transhumanism http://feeds.technorati.com/feed/posts/tag/transhumanism You might also consider looking for Flickr images so tagged. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/transhumanism/ http://www.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?tags=transhumanism&format=rss_200 -- Jay Dugger Pick one you like and donate: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger/charity From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 14 02:46:33 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:46:33 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <22360fa10511131812y3133c84bqe175c2415cd4587@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200511140246.jAE2kfe05672@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 6:13 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > > On 11/13/05, spike wrote: > > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in > France) > > > > > > On 11/12/05, spike wrote: > > > > > > > ... No matter > > how many times we lather, rinse and repeat, somebody > > has to be Walmart. > > > > Or what? Suggestions welcome. > > Glad also that you reframed it away from being about "moral" choices > and toward being about relatively desirable places to work and trade... - Jef Jef it occurred to me that Europe Inc. must have dealt with this problem a long time ago. I understand that civilization has been around a long time on that continent. How about it Europeans? How did you guys handle the classic conflict between small local shops and huge retail monsters? Do you have something analogous to the yank's Walmarts and Fry's? Do the big cities have them and the small towns not? If so, do people go to the cities to shop? No one has said much about the fact that bricks and mortar shops are getting ever more competition from Amazon.com and the rest of the internet fly-by-nights. We can easily imagine that Walmart might become the last retail building left standing. Europeans, do you guys buy computers and books the same way we do, over the internet? Do you get outta paying sales taxes that way? spike From live2scan at charter.net Mon Nov 14 02:59:50 2005 From: live2scan at charter.net (Dennis) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:59:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects Message-ID: <00a201c5e8c7$7b4088d0$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> I've been a long time ( since mid 90's) mostly lurker on one extropian list or another. Never thought I had much to contribute-not researcher, or media person- just humble MRI tech and usually too swamped with work to do much more than read this list . It's an achievement just to read my professional list half the time. But lately I've had a little more free time than usual and I've been toying with the idea of teaching a class in future/ singularity/life extension/etc at a local alternative educational facility. I imagine some of you have done such a thing. Is there a Web site that I might use so as not to have to reinvent the wheel on this subject or can some one suggest a group of them that I might use for reference or even just reflecting on your personal experiences with same. Thanks; Dennis Roberts live2scan at charter.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joel.pitt at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 03:24:33 2005 From: joel.pitt at gmail.com (Joel Peter William Pitt) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:24:33 +1300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: National Novel Writing Month - who's game to try? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0511120538pfcec17s@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0510152200s4520764et@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0511120538pfcec17s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've (suicidally) signed up - and have done so for a few years now. I never get very far however - November is always is an extremely busy time of the year for me! Good work on hitting 20k - you're almost on the home stretch :) -Joel On 11/13/05, Emlyn wrote: > Is anyone else giving NaNoWriMo a go? > > I've just hit 20K words tonight. Oh the pain! > > On 16/10/05, Emlyn wrote: > > I was just forwarded information about National Novel Writing Month. > > Has anyone here heard of it? Basically, the idea is that over > > November, you (and a zillion other people who've signed up) write a > > novel, from scratch. > > > > http://www.nanowrimo.org/ > >... > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > NaNoWriMo word count: 20427 (http://nanowrimo.org) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 14 07:52:58 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:52:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20051114075258.90178.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > Do me a favor and honestly ask yourself one > question, what is really your > top priority in this matter? Is it solving the > problem of world poverty or > is it showing off to the world what a caring > empathetic man you are? No > need to tell me your answer because I don't need to > be a psychic to know > what you will say, but tell yourself the truth. And > don't worry, I won't > hear. My top priority was simply to engage you in a rational discourse regarding Wal-Mart's business practices. Nothing said by me is going to put the slightest dent in world poverty. But neither is Wal-Mart's seven cents an hour. All that is doing is bringing poverty back from the third world to our own shores. As if the Waltons were even the slightest bit concerned with anybody other than themsleves. Poverty itself is an artifice of materialistic culture that Wal-Mart epitomizes. Mankind has did without money for 95% of the million or so years that he has been around. It is only because people with huge amounts of money insist that EVERYBODY needs it, and refuse to allow people to live in peace without it, that poverty even exists. That these privilaged few seize land in undeveloped nations at gun point and coerce the common people in those lands to squander the precious years of their lives in servitude to them in exchange for getting minute quantities of it doled out to them, is why world poverty has even become an issue at all. So how can you possibly alleviate world poverty with the very same system that created it in the first place? Animals can exhibit selfishness, greed, and violent territoriallity. So show me why the Waltons are not animals? Show me how sweat shops prevent more hunger than simply tearing them down and cultivating the land upon which they stood with crops? Show me how Sam Walton is more humane than Mother Teresa? Or is it simply a matter of faith for you with no reasoning behind it? Pardon me for being an infidel in your money worship. The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 14 08:49:35 2005 From: bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk (bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:49:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects In-Reply-To: <00a201c5e8c7$7b4088d0$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> Message-ID: <20051114084935.16996.qmail@web26706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I've been working on a similar project in the UK (although it's been shelved for a few months due to day job work pressure). What we need is a structured syllabus for Transhumanist & Extropian flavoured memes. The WTA has one (put together by Nick Bostrum I believe), and I've also been constructing one of my own, where the lead in is via the new high-tech sciences, Bio Science, Genetics and Nanotech. This often overcomes initial nervousness on the part of traditional educational establishments and easily implies H+. I've successfully run short courses on Nanotech and its implications in a UK FE College and a teaching Hospital, and the attendees have been more interested in the consequences than in the technology! Check out the resources on the WTA website (I'm assuming you've already done so on the Extropy site). But if you are developing/tailoring one of your own, I'm happy to collaborate. Julian (Director UKTA) --- Dennis wrote: > I've been a long time ( since mid 90's) mostly > lurker on one extropian list or another. Never > thought I had much to contribute-not researcher, or > media person- just humble MRI tech and usually too > swamped with work to do much more than read this > list . It's an achievement just to read my > professional list half the time. > But lately I've had a little more free time than > usual and I've been toying with the idea of teaching > a class in future/ singularity/life extension/etc at > a local alternative educational facility. > I imagine some of you have done such a thing. Is > there a Web site that I might use so as not to have > to reinvent the wheel on this subject or can some > one suggest a group of them that I might use for > reference or even just reflecting on your personal > experiences with same. > > Thanks; > Dennis Roberts > live2scan at charter.net> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > "Fahrkarte bis zur Endstation!" ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From eugen at leitl.org Mon Nov 14 09:21:56 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:21:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] a real pleasure to work for [dave@farber.net: [IP] Wal-Mart threatens employees: Don't see the Wal-Mart Movie] Message-ID: <20051114092156.GO2249@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from David Farber ----- From: David Farber Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:15:20 -0500 To: ip at v2.listbox.com Subject: [IP] Wal-Mart threatens employees: Don't see the Wal-Mart Movie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Reply-To: dave at farber.net Begin forwarded message: From: Brett Glass Date: November 13, 2005 8:39:02 PM EST To: Dave Farber , Ip ip Subject: Wal-Mart threatens employees: Don't see the Wal-Mart Movie Dave: For IP, if you'd like. Josh Thompson, president of a left-leaning political group on the University of Wyoming campus, was distributing handbills for a screening of the movie "Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price" when one of the women to whom he gave a handbill mentioned that she worked for Wal-Mart. "All the more reason for you to come and see this important film," said Thompson. "I can't," replied the employee. "Management will be attending this screening, and if any Wal-Mart employee is seen by them attending any screening, we've been told that we will be fired." Apparently, the controversial documentary -- which has received rave reviews from several media outlets -- is so worrisome to Wal-Mart that they've threatened employees with termination if they so much as see it. Regardless of your political stance or affiliation, it should give you pause that any corporation would try to exert control over employees' media choices outside of working hours, don't you think? --Brett Glass ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as eugen at leitl.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 10:32:49 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:32:49 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] a real pleasure to work for [dave@farber.net: [IP] Wal-Mart threatens employees: Don't see the Wal-Mart Movie] In-Reply-To: <20051114092156.GO2249@leitl.org> References: <20051114092156.GO2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Eugen Leitl wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from David Farber ----- > > Apparently, the controversial documentary -- which has received rave > reviews from several media outlets -- is so worrisome to Wal-Mart > that they've threatened employees with termination if they so much as > see it. > > Regardless of your political stance or affiliation, it should give > you pause that any corporation would try to exert control over > employees' media choices outside of working hours, don't you think? > Movie reviewed on New York Times - (more reviews available via Google) (Long link bypasses NYT login) The saddest part of this documentary is a series of shots of abandoned Main Streets, empty store after empty store, with Bruce Springsteen's plaintive version of "This Land Is Your Land" as accompaniment. But vanquishing thousands of small businesses coast to coast is not Wal-Mart's only crime, its critics say. They also cite the company's treatment of its employees, whose average annual income is under $14,000. The company offers health insurance, but it is so expensive, employees say, that most people can't afford it. According to the documentary, company representatives openly recommend that workers sign up for government-aid programs instead. "The High Cost of Low Price" makes its case with breathtaking force. Mr. Scott of Wal-Mart declined to speak on camera, Mr. Greenwald says. The company is worried enough about this film and growing opposition elsewhere that it has hired high-powered former presidential advisers and set up a public relations "war room" to deflect and respond to criticism. etc. ------------------ BillK From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 11:22:59 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:22:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <200511140246.jAE2kfe05672@tick.javien.com> References: <22360fa10511131812y3133c84bqe175c2415cd4587@mail.gmail.com> <200511140246.jAE2kfe05672@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4902d9990511140322n408dc9b8rd44c5766c7f4711@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, spike wrote: > > > Jef it occurred to me that Europe Inc. must have dealt > with this problem a long time ago. I understand that > civilization has been around a long time on that > continent. How about it Europeans? How did you > guys handle the classic conflict between small > local shops and huge retail monsters? Do you > have something analogous to the yank's Walmarts > and Fry's? Do the big cities have > them and the small towns not? If so, do > people go to the cities to shop? (not speaking for the whole Europe, just for my country) Sorry but we didn't deal with this problem a long time ago, actually we are just starting, and we are behing the US in this kind of things. Small shops were the rule until a few years ago, except for grocery store chains. In the last ten or five years, a lot of huge shopping centers sprung up around the cities. They are seen as an "americanized" way of doing shopping. A few of the mentioned grocery store chains are starting to expand their product range in the "everything" direction, so they could be start being comparable with US retail giants. They sometimes have a socialistic touch, for example one of the biggest is Coop (short for "cooperative"), which just opened another IperCoop megastore not far from here. You can become a member of the cooperative, effectively buying a vanishingly small part of it, they have special savings accounts for their members, have published specs for quality control, etc. Most others are purely retail and compete almost only on price. But the huge retail centers are still quite new. Also, keep in mind that a 60 minutes drive is considered "long" around here, especially for shopping, so in the small towns most people goes to the small local shops. Alfio From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 12:55:21 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:55:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <4902d9990511140322n408dc9b8rd44c5766c7f4711@mail.gmail.com> References: <22360fa10511131812y3133c84bqe175c2415cd4587@mail.gmail.com> <200511140246.jAE2kfe05672@tick.javien.com> <4902d9990511140322n408dc9b8rd44c5766c7f4711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Alfio Puglisi wrote: > > But the huge retail centers are still quite new. Also, keep in mind > that a 60 minutes drive is considered "long" around here, especially > for shopping, so in the small towns most people goes to the small > local shops. > And of course in Euroland that means 2 hours total travel time and 25 to 30 USD fuel cost that must be added to the 'bargains' that you buy. BillK From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 13:01:50 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:01:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: <22360fa10511131812y3133c84bqe175c2415cd4587@mail.gmail.com> <200511140246.jAE2kfe05672@tick.javien.com> <4902d9990511140322n408dc9b8rd44c5766c7f4711@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4902d9990511140501i3708449y59ac9c6492ffa3bf@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, BillK wrote: > And of course in Euroland that means 2 hours total travel time and 25 > to 30 USD fuel cost that must be added to the 'bargains' that you buy. Not really 25 USD. If you drive say 40km for the nearest city that's 2 or 3 litres of gas each way, so 6 euros (7 USD) total. Alfio From amara at amara.com Mon Nov 14 13:22:51 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:22:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) Message-ID: Alfio: There is a social impact too. Some fiorentinos told me that, when this place http://www.igigli.it/1001300204/portal_ne=1001300204&cp=22723&l=1&d=MPS&pt=&pg=1&ids=0&id1=.htm opened, it acted like a large magnet, attracting the young people, so the 'character' of Firenze changed. I have visited this place (it is very close to the company that built our Dawn VIR instrument), and, on the scale of US shopping malls, it is on the small side. Can you comment on how this mall affects people in Florence? Amara From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 13:50:08 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:50:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4902d9990511140550y3163fbd0jf3fe7a0f945b416b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, Amara Graps wrote: > Alfio: > > There is a social impact too. Some fiorentinos told me that, when this > place > > http://www.igigli.it/1001300204/portal_ne=1001300204&cp=22723&l=1&d=MPS&pt=&pg=1&ids=0&id1=.htm > > opened, it acted like a large magnet, attracting the young people, so > the 'character' of Firenze changed. I have visited this place (it is > very close to the company that built our Dawn VIR instrument), and, on > the scale of US shopping malls, it is on the small side. Can you > comment on how this mall affects people in Florence? It mainly affects people living in the surrounding towns: young people didn't have many places to go, and going to Gigli become something common on friday and saturday afternoons, plus the whole sunday - not for shopping, but just for hanging around. It's easily reacheable from nearby towns, many of which are experiencing population increases (the location of the shopping center wasn't chosen at random :-) People living in the city tend to go there if they have a specific reason, it's at least a 30 minutes drive with heavy traffic, and Firenze has a lot of places for social needs. This doesn't mean that they don't go there at all (you can even find me there once every month or two), but that it's not a casual meeting place. In the area near Gigli, about three or four smaller shopping centers have opened in the last five years, along with cinema multiplexes, Ikea stores and similar things, giving birth to a kind of shopping belt around the north-west part of the city. In some ways, going outside the city was the only practical choice: Firenze is very compressed and there's literally not enough space within the city limits for this kind of shopping centers. Alfio From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Nov 14 14:35:18 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (M.B. Baumeister) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:35:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects In-Reply-To: <00a201c5e8c7$7b4088d0$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> References: <00a201c5e8c7$7b4088d0$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> Message-ID: <46305.72.236.102.90.1131978918.squirrel@main.nc.us> > I've been > toying with the idea of teaching a class in future/ singularity/life extension/etc at a local alternative educational facility. Where is this facility? I might be interested in coming to your class. :) Much of what's on this list is so far over my head that I'm pretty hopelessly lost, and I'd like to understand more. Regards, MB From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Nov 14 15:03:34 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:03:34 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects In-Reply-To: <20051114084935.16996.qmail@web26706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <00a201c5e8c7$7b4088d0$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> <20051114084935.16996.qmail@web26706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114090012.07c5ac18@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 02:49 AM 11/14/2005, you wrote: >I've been working on a similar project in the UK >(although it's been shelved for a few months due to >day job work pressure). > >What we need is a structured syllabus for >Transhumanist & Extropian flavoured memes. I agree in total! I'm finishing up my master thesis right now and want to focus on this as soon as possible - that would be in January. One of ExI's goals is to offer a course on the future through Extropy Institute. The material I have accumulated from my masters degree is highly relevant for this (Masters of Science in Studies of the Future). Most of my work in this graduate program has been related to transhumanism in general and Extropy Institute and the future in particular. I'll collaborate with anyone who wants to teach! Best wishes, Natasha Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist - Designer Future Studies, University of Houston President, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture Honorary Vice-Chair, World Transhumanist Association Senior Associate, Foresight Institute Advisor, Alcor Life Extension Foundation If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:22:06 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:22:06 -0600 Subject: Driving was Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? Message-ID: <7641ddc60511140722u11f047fiddc9dd7bad8b6518@mail.gmail.com> 40 km (=24.85 miles) x 2 = 49.7 miles - in two hours? Wow, when I drive to work, I make 45 miles in 45 minutes. What kind of a car are you driving? Burning 6 liters( = 1.584 gallons) for 49.7 miles in very slow driving makes 31.4 mpg. Even hybrids don't always get this kind of mileage. And the lower number you give, 4 liters both ways, would make it 47.1 mpg, beyond even Prius territory (in real life, as opposed to salesman pitch). I burn about 16 $ a day over about 90 miles. Rafal On 11/14/05, Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On 11/14/05, BillK wrote: > > > And of course in Euroland that means 2 hours total travel time and 25 > > to 30 USD fuel cost that must be added to the 'bargains' that you buy. > > Not really 25 USD. If you drive say 40km for the nearest city that's 2 > or 3 litres of gas each way, so 6 euros (7 USD) total. > > Alfio > From jonkc at att.net Mon Nov 14 15:23:58 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:23:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051114075258.90178.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201c5e92f$7b4e7040$200e4e0c@MyComputer> "The Avantguardian" > As if the Waltons were even the slightest bit concerned > with anybody other than themsleves. Concerned? I have no idea who if anybody Sam Walton was personally concerned about and frankly my dear I don't give a damn. I'm interested in results, I don't give a hoot in hell about intentions. I hope I don't come across sounding too cynical but any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not going to work. The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the grocer sells my food and none of these people love me, yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food on my table. > So how can you possibly alleviate world poverty with > the very same system that created it in the first place? Capitalism certainly didn't cause world poverty and I can do much better than tell you how it can alleviate it, I can give you example after example after example where it HAS alleviated it. If you don't believe me then ask a few hundred million people in China, or those in South Korea, or Formosa, or Singapore, or Honk Kong or.... > Mankind has did without money for 95% of the million > or so years that he has been around. It is only > because people with huge amounts of money insist that > EVERYBODY needs it, and refuse to allow people to live > in peace without it, that poverty even exists. Wow! And I thought Islam was bad trying to bring the world back to the 13'th century, but you put them to shame, you want to bring things back to prehistoric times. Pol Pot in Cambodia had similar ideas. John K Clark From eugen at leitl.org Mon Nov 14 15:46:05 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:46:05 +0100 Subject: Driving was Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511140722u11f047fiddc9dd7bad8b6518@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60511140722u11f047fiddc9dd7bad8b6518@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051114154604.GF2249@leitl.org> On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 09:22:06AM -0600, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > 40 km (=24.85 miles) x 2 = 49.7 miles - in two hours? > > Wow, when I drive to work, I make 45 miles in 45 minutes. It obviously depends on the local traffic. > What kind of a car are you driving? Burning 6 liters( = 1.584 gallons) > for 49.7 miles in very slow driving makes 31.4 mpg. Even hybrids don't > always get this kind of mileage. And the lower number you give, 4 Current hybrids are not particularly efficient. Right now I range between 5.8 and 6.6 l/100 km (depending on the driving style), and my car is not that efficient (a Honda Jazz). > liters both ways, would make it 47.1 mpg, beyond even Prius territory > (in real life, as opposed to salesman pitch). > > I burn about 16 $ a day over about 90 miles. I burn about 50 EUR/month for gas. Considerably less when I take the bike (about 50 min one way). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:20:51 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:20:51 +0100 Subject: Driving was Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511140722u11f047fiddc9dd7bad8b6518@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60511140722u11f047fiddc9dd7bad8b6518@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4902d9990511140820l35e00de8vfd1e36fba565be17@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > 40 km (=24.85 miles) x 2 = 49.7 miles - in two hours? > > Wow, when I drive to work, I make 45 miles in 45 minutes. So you average 60 mph. On a highway, or in some other empty country road. Around here most of the terrain is hills and mountains, and unless you live in the right town near the highway you cannot hope of averaging more than 50 km/h (30 mph). And in big cities the traffic is very heavy, the average speed is much slower. > What kind of a car are you driving? Burning 6 liters( = 1.584 gallons) > for 49.7 miles in very slow driving makes 31.4 mpg. My car is small (Renault Clio 1.2L), and gets between 17 and 20 km/l. That would be 39 and 47 mpg. The manufacturer claims 48 mpg in the best case, which is spot on. At the legal speed limit of 80 mph it gets around 15 km/l (35 mpg). Around one third of all the cars in Italy are about this size, and get similar fuel economy. I put a lower number of 4 liters because modern diesel cars like the Golf TDI or similar engines can get better mileage than my car, about 50-55 mpg if you are light on the gas pedal, while being at the same time more powerful than mine (if you press on the pedal...) > Even hybrids don't always get this kind of mileage. And the lower number you give, 4 > liters both ways, would make it 47.1 mpg, beyond even Prius territory > (in real life, as opposed to salesman pitch). I'm always surprised at how much fuel a US hybrid requires. > I burn about 16 $ a day over about 90 miles. I live 4.5 miles from work, but it takes 15 minutes to get there with the car due to rush hour and traffic lights. It takes a bit more with the bicycle, because it's on the top of a moderate hill. The time it takes me to get to work is lower than the average, but not by much. Between 30 and 60 minutes people start bitching about how long it is. Alfio From hibbert at mydruthers.com Mon Nov 14 17:16:59 2005 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:16:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> Message-ID: <4378C68B.3090707@mydruthers.com> > I'd be interested in hearing about other blogs maintained by current > and former list members. Maybe we could make a list. My blog is pancrit.org. I usually write an entry once a week. Most of it is book reviews, but there's a smattering of other things. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com Blog: http://pancrit.org From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:44:34 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:44:34 +0000 Subject: Driving was Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <4902d9990511140820l35e00de8vfd1e36fba565be17@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60511140722u11f047fiddc9dd7bad8b6518@mail.gmail.com> <4902d9990511140820l35e00de8vfd1e36fba565be17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On 11/14/05, BillK wrote: > > > And of course in Euroland that means 2 hours total travel time and 25 > > to 30 USD fuel cost that must be added to the 'bargains' that you buy. > > Not really 25 USD. If you drive say 40km for the nearest city that's 2 > or 3 litres of gas each way, so 6 euros (7 USD) total. > My assumption was that if you were driving for an hour each way it would be more than 25 miles (40km), probably nearer 60 miles (100Km) each way in a mix of city traffic and motorway. The average medium size cars in the UK only get about 35 miles per gallon (12.3 k/ltr), big cars, 4WDs and SUVs nearer 20 mpg. (UK gallons) or 7k/ltr. Small, economy cars do approach 50 mpg (17.6 k/ltr), but most families drive medium-size cars. So, say 120 miles = 192 km = 18.28 ltrs = 14.50 GBP = 25.16 USD. But I agree fuel cost could range from 8 USD to 44.25 USD, depending on distance and fuel conomy. YMMV :) BillK From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 14 19:23:04 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:23:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) French claim Paris riots more cultured than American riots In-Reply-To: <4376D720.9050606@mindspring.com> References: <4376D720.9050606@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1C58771F-1C0F-4F85-AFAF-9E32EDB93E83@mac.com> On Nov 12, 2005, at 10:03 PM, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > >> French authorities have been reluctant to send in troops to quell >> the protests, insisting that a military presence will only be >> legitimate with UN backing. Bringing the riots under control has >> been dismissed as "Anglo-Saxon policing" by members of the >> Government. "We do not want to relinquish our proud French >> traditions just because they cause mass civil unrest," said Social >> Affairs Minister Jean-Louis Borloo. "We will not trade in racism, >> mass unemployment and arrogant timidity in policing for a >> "McCulture" of law and order." >> > This is probably one of the better clues as to why this happened in France. Government that is unwilling to keep the peace hardly deserves the name. I could understand if the riots had some deeper political significance perhaps. But simple out of control destruction for no cause but mass frustration? I would have sent in enough police and troops to stop this long ago. Yes, work on fixing the underlying problems. But in the meantime don't jut let the cities burn. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 14 19:27:50 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:27:50 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> Please spell out the dangers you allude to. - s On Nov 13, 2005, at 9:22 AM, Jef Allbright wrote: > On 11/11/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > >> Dead cheap molecular manufacturing could end such strife - in the >> right >> hands (that is - everyone's hands) But, if and when it arrives - it's >> deliberate restriction to a privileged few could also give us >> strife we >> never before considered even possible. >> Unfortunately - I share your gloomy outlook. >> > > Cheap ubiquitous molecular manufacturing could certainly end the > strife over scarcity of subsistence level resources, but only if used > wisely. To put such power in everyone's hands, without first having a > framework of rational interdependence, would be like providing > gasoline to children playing with matches. > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 14 19:45:19 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:45:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] a real pleasure to work for [dave@farber.net: [IP] Wal-Mart threatens employees: Don't see the Wal-Mart Movie] In-Reply-To: References: <20051114092156.GO2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: <9BE77785-B1A4-4D2E-9936-DA8AD2AA5C51@mac.com> On Nov 14, 2005, at 2:32 AM, BillK wrote: > > They also cite the company's treatment of its employees, whose average > annual income is under $14,000. The company offers health insurance, > but it is so expensive, employees say, that most people can't afford > it. According to the documentary, company representatives openly > recommend that workers sign up for government-aid programs instead. > Hmm. I wonder why our ire is not also focused on a government that a) owns over 40% of the land; b) takes over 50% of the product of everyone's labor by force; c) regulates and licenses so much that many of the power have nothing left but its dole; d) despite (a) and (b) has a running immediate debt of over $8 trillion; e) has nearly 10 times the amount in (d) of total money commitment going forward that can only be paid by taking it from us; f) holds more people in jail per capita than any other nation. etc. Considering what that fat bloated tick is doing to the country I am not as horrified that a private employer suggests going to the government to make up the difference. I am far more horrified and utterly pissed at the government than at WalMart. But the people will clamor for the government to get even bigger and enslave and impoverish them to an even greater level. Then their conscience will be assuaged. - samantha From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 20:05:12 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:05:12 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Please spell out the dangers you allude to. > > Well, manufacturing weapons, explosives, bioweapons, wargasses etc That would do for a start. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Nov 14 20:37:57 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:37:57 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Minerva lost in space Message-ID: Minerva, the little probe that was supposed to hop around asteroid Itokawa and take images, hopped off into space :-( http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn8311 Amara From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 20:45:22 2005 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:45:22 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) French claim Paris riots more cultured than American riots In-Reply-To: <1C58771F-1C0F-4F85-AFAF-9E32EDB93E83@mac.com> References: <4376D720.9050606@mindspring.com> <1C58771F-1C0F-4F85-AFAF-9E32EDB93E83@mac.com> Message-ID: <4902d9990511141245r40050a76hc0a399b7ad0ec05f@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Nov 12, 2005, at 10:03 PM, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > > > > >> French authorities have been reluctant to send in troops to quell > >> the protests, insisting that a military presence will only be > >> legitimate with UN backing. Bringing the riots under control has > >> been dismissed as "Anglo-Saxon policing" by members of the > >> Government. "We do not want to relinquish our proud French > >> traditions just because they cause mass civil unrest," said Social > >> Affairs Minister Jean-Louis Borloo. "We will not trade in racism, > >> mass unemployment and arrogant timidity in policing for a > >> "McCulture" of law and order." > >> > > > > This is probably one of the better clues as to why this happened in > France. Government that is unwilling to keep the peace hardly > deserves the name. I could understand if the riots had some deeper > political significance perhaps. But simple out of control > destruction for no cause but mass frustration? I would have sent in > enough police and troops to stop this long ago. Yes, work on fixing > the underlying problems. But in the meantime don't jut let the > cities burn. I was assuming that it was a satire? UN backing???? Alfio From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Nov 14 21:27:54 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:27:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> Message-ID: <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> With material plenty do you think this is likely? But wait, I thoroughly believe in the right to obtain and bear arms. So we may disagree or which kinds of things are a problem. A nano-factory cannot produce anything it doesn't have a blueprint for. That is one level of control. Nanofactories could come with certain built-in restrictions giving another level of control. The problems could also be addressed by something like the broadcast model proposed by Ralph Merkle (http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepJBIS.html). Generally speaking I am more interested in empowering people and in fighting abuses they actually do commit than in keeping them harmless by decreasing their abilities and access. - s On Nov 14, 2005, at 12:05 PM, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > On 11/14/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Please spell out the dangers you allude to. > > > Well, manufacturing weapons, explosives, bioweapons, wargasses etc > That would do for a start. > > Dirk > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 21:42:00 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:42:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > With material plenty do you think this is likely? But wait, I thoroughly > believe in the right to obtain and bear arms. So we may disagree or Material plenty simply means that the fighting will be over power, religion and ideology. which kinds of things are a problem. A nano-factory cannot produce anything > it doesn't have a blueprint for. That is one level of control. How much of a blueprint does a gene machine require to synthesise a gene? Nanofactories could come with certain built-in restrictions giving another > level of control. The problems could also be addressed by something like the > broadcast model proposed by Ralph Merkle ( > http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepJBIS.html). > Generally speaking I am more interested in empowering people and in > fighting abuses they actually do commit than in keeping them harmless by > decreasing their abilities and access. > > I think that such factories will be common, and that restrictions on their use will be just as effective as DRM is in music today. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From live2scan at charter.net Mon Nov 14 22:07:03 2005 From: live2scan at charter.net (Dennis) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:07:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects References: <00a201c5e8c7$7b4088d0$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> <46305.72.236.102.90.1131978918.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <001f01c5e967$dad06180$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> Why be confused, I'm sure there are any number of list members, myself included, who would be willing to clarify anything that you have trouble getting your mind around. The school is an open university format institution in western North Carolina. Probably a bit off the beaten path for most, but I believe that I'm not the only one on this list from these parts. Dennis Roberts live2scan at charter.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "M.B. Baumeister" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects > > I've been > > toying with the idea of teaching a class in future/ singularity/life > extension/etc at a local alternative educational facility. > > > Where is this facility? I might be interested in coming to your class. :) > Much of what's on this list is so far over my head that I'm pretty > hopelessly lost, and I'd like to understand more. > > Regards, > MB > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 14 22:57:17 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:57:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> Message-ID: <22360fa10511141457t33c32cffpb3224fbffd960aac@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > On 11/14/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > With material plenty do you think this is likely? But wait, I thoroughly > believe in the right to obtain and bear arms. So we may disagree or > > Material plenty simply means that the fighting will be over power, religion > and ideology. > > > which kinds of things are a problem. A nano-factory cannot produce > anything it doesn't have a blueprint for. That is one level of control. > > How much of a blueprint does a gene machine require to synthesise a gene? > > > Nanofactories could come with certain built-in restrictions giving another > level of control. The problems could also be addressed by something like > the broadcast model proposed by Ralph Merkle > (http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepJBIS.html ). > > > > > > Generally speaking I am more interested in empowering people and in > fighting abuses they actually do commit than in keeping them harmless by > decreasing their abilities and access. > > > > > I think that such factories will be common, and that restrictions on their > use will be just as effective as DRM is in music today. Dirk expressed the kinds of dangers I had in mind, but the subsequent discussion seems to have been about control of threats (and its ultimate ineffectiveness) rather than the accelerating growth of wisdom I had in mind. I see technological risk accelerating at a rate faster than the development of individual human intelligence (which gives us much of our built-in sense of morality), and faster than cultural intelligence (from which we get moral guidance based on societal beliefs) but maybe--just maybe--not faster than technologically based amplification of human values exploiting accelerating instrumental knowledge to implement effective decision-making which, as I've explained elsewhere in more detail, is a more encompassing concept of morality. I apologize, as usual, for the density of my post. - Jef From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 23:01:10 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:01:10 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <22360fa10511141457t33c32cffpb3224fbffd960aac@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> <22360fa10511141457t33c32cffpb3224fbffd960aac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/14/05, Jef Allbright wrote: > > On 11/14/05, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > > > > On 11/14/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > With material plenty do you think this is likely? But wait, I > thoroughly > > believe in the right to obtain and bear arms. So we may disagree or > > > > Material plenty simply means that the fighting will be over power, > religion > > and ideology. > > > > > which kinds of things are a problem. A nano-factory cannot produce > > anything it doesn't have a blueprint for. That is one level of control. > > > > How much of a blueprint does a gene machine require to synthesise a > gene? > > > > > Nanofactories could come with certain built-in restrictions giving > another > > level of control. The problems could also be addressed by something like > > the broadcast model proposed by Ralph Merkle > > (http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepJBIS.html ). > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking I am more interested in empowering people and in > > fighting abuses they actually do commit than in keeping them harmless by > > decreasing their abilities and access. > > > > > > > > I think that such factories will be common, and that restrictions on > their > > use will be just as effective as DRM is in music today. > > Dirk expressed the kinds of dangers I had in mind, but the subsequent > discussion seems to have been about control of threats (and its > ultimate ineffectiveness) rather than the accelerating growth of > wisdom I had in mind. > > I see technological risk accelerating at a rate faster than the > development of individual human intelligence (which gives us much of > our built-in sense of morality), and faster than cultural intelligence > (from which we get moral guidance based on societal beliefs) but > maybe--just maybe--not faster than technologically based amplification > of human values exploiting accelerating instrumental knowledge to > implement effective decision-making which, as I've explained elsewhere > in more detail, is a more encompassing concept of morality. I too think it will be a close run race between PostHuman society and extinction (or at best a massive dieback and new dark age). Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 15 00:57:41 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:57:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <22360fa10511141457t33c32cffpb3224fbffd960aac@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> <22360fa10511141457t33c32cffpb3224fbffd960aac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62C7F75E-B956-4E1A-ACF5-996C9DFC17FD@mac.com> On Nov 14, 2005, at 2:57 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > > I see technological risk accelerating at a rate faster than the > development of individual human intelligence (which gives us much of > our built-in sense of morality), and faster than cultural intelligence > (from which we get moral guidance based on societal beliefs) but > maybe--just maybe--not faster than technologically based amplification > of human values exploiting accelerating instrumental knowledge to > implement effective decision-making which, as I've explained elsewhere > in more detail, is a more encompassing concept of morality. > I agree that IA is very important. However it is not obvious that higher effective intelligence and much more effective decision making [redundant?] will lead to more moral or wise goals. It could lead to much more efficiently implementing the same old goals and prejudices. I still believe it is a net great improvement to today's insanity as so much of it seems to grow out of rank stupidity. If higher intelligence could be more tied to critical examination of current assumptions and goals and much more aware choosing of goals then we would see much greater improvement. But how are you going to get pst the propensity of human beings to ignore the knowledge they do have and the amount of decision making power they now possess? > I apologize, as usual, for the density of my post. No apologies needed that I can see. - samantha From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Nov 15 01:36:51 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (M.B. Baumeister) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:36:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects In-Reply-To: <001f01c5e967$dad06180$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> References: <00a201c5e8c7$7b4088d0$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> <46305.72.236.102.90.1131978918.squirrel@main.nc.us> <001f01c5e967$dad06180$640fa8c0@dennis1zpu5spy> Message-ID: <46632.72.236.103.131.1132018611.squirrel@main.nc.us> > The school is an open university format > institution in western North Carolina. Probably a bit off the beaten path > for most, but I believe that I'm not the only one on this list from these > parts. That's kinda what I figured. Make sure to publish on the list where and when you'll teach your class. If I can afford it and it's not in conflict with the other things I do I'd like to attend. Regards, MB From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Tue Nov 15 02:24:56 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:24:56 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511141900.jAEJ09e22691@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <001d01c5e98b$c6691ab0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> > From: "John K Clark" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in > > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <001201c5e92f$7b4e7040$200e4e0c at MyComputer> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > "The Avantguardian" > >> As if the Waltons were even the slightest bit concerned >> with anybody other than themsleves. > > Concerned? I have no idea who if anybody Sam Walton was personally > concerned > about and frankly my dear I don't give a damn. I'm interested in results, > I > don't give a hoot in hell about intentions. John still has not said why it is he believes that a Wal-Mart market monopoly is in in any sense more 'free market' or 'efficient' than several thousand smaller stores offering: a) choice for consumers - more places to shop b) choice for workers - more business competing for labor, more capital in circulation as opposed to locked away with one small group c) choice for entrepeneurs - more business opportunities - less chance of a reasonable business being stifled and forced out of the market in a 'David vs Goliath' scenario d) a real competing business environment to keep prices reasonable >I hope I don't come across > sounding too cynical but any economic system that must rely on people > loving > each other is just not going to work. The farmer grows my food, the > trucker > moves my food and the grocer sells my food and none of these people love > me, > yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food on my > table. > John K Clark "Love" is not the point. But this statement seems to beg the question: What is the purpose of the national economy? (Any national economy) If that purpose IS the good of all its constituent citizens - then surely by this criterion the 'legendary hyper-efficiency' of Wal-Mart you mentioned in a previous post is actually hyper-inefficiency? It boils down to the question: Does the economy serve the citizens of the country? (In which case all corporate activity should be judged by benefits accruing to EVERY sector of society), or do the citizens serve the economy? (In which case, poverty line workers are an excellent idea - the only important thing is that corporations get rich) I submit that Wal-Mart does not effectively serve every sector, in fact it primarikly seves a miniscule portion of it - the Waltons. And, that in consequence of this, the country - and the people - would generally be better off without this corporate giant. Jack Parkinson From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 02:38:09 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil H.) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:38:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for a superboy - or a dogboy? Message-ID: The Dallas Morning News has an anti-transhumanist op-ed by a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute (a conservative Christian think-tank). http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-smith_13edi.ART.State.Edition1.2f25c31.html Some quotes: Look out, America: The trajectory of science is coming into conflict with venerable human values and even our self-definition as a species, raising urgent ethical issues that will have to be answered before it is too late. ... The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that all human beings have equal moral worth, regardless of their abilities or capacities. This objective standard is now threatened by "personhood theory," which holds that rights only belong to "persons," a status earned by possessing minimal cognitive capacities. If personhood theory supplants sanctity of life as the governing ethic of society, it would open the door to harvesting organs from people like Terri Schiavo or permitting biotechnologists to "farm" cloned fetuses for use in drug testing or experiments in genetic engineering. ... If scientists can insert human DNA into animal embryos, then animal DNA could just as easily be inserted into human embryos. Such experiments are far from unthinkable. A social movement called "transhumanism" advocates the creation of a "post human species," which would include using animal genes in progeny to increase strength or make senses more acute. ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:03:31 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil H.) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:03:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elon Musk on SpaceX's future rockets Message-ID: Elon Musk, the former CEO of Paypal and current CEO of SpaceX, discusses his work with privately developing low-cost, high-reliability rockets. In the long term, he intends to build a Saturn V-class vehicle, dubbed the "BFR," which would be useful for transporting the infrastructure needed to colonize the Moon and Mars. http://thespacereview.com/article/497/1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:07:14 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:07:14 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for a superboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/15/05, Neil H. wrote: > > The Dallas Morning News has an anti-transhumanist op-ed by a senior fellow > at the Discovery Institute (a conservative Christian think-tank). > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-smith_13edi.ART.State.Edition1.2f25c31.html > > > Some quotes: > > Look out, America: The trajectory of science is coming into conflict with > venerable human values and even our self-definition as a species, raising > urgent ethical issues that will have to be answered before it is too late. > ... > > The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that all human beings have > equal moral worth, regardless of their abilities or capacities. This > objective standard is now threatened by "personhood theory," which holds > that rights only belong to "persons," a status earned by possessing minimal > cognitive capacities. If personhood theory supplants sanctity of life as the > governing ethic of society, it would open the door to harvesting organs from > people like Terri Schiavo or permitting biotechnologists to "farm" cloned > fetuses for use in drug testing or experiments in genetic engineering. > ... > If scientists can insert human DNA into animal embryos, then animal DNA > could just as easily be inserted into human embryos. Such experiments are > far from unthinkable. A social movement called "transhumanism" advocates the > creation of a "post human species," which would include using animal genes > in progeny to increase strength or make senses more acute. > ... > Sounds good to me. I could do with eyesight comparable to a hawk and muscles as strong as a gorilla. Fortunately the 'sanctity of life' crap is a Western (read largely US) obsession not shared by the likes of China. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 15 03:08:17 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:08:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] a real pleasure to work for [dave@farber.net: [IP]Wal-Mart threatens employees: Don't see the Wal-Mart Movie] In-Reply-To: <9BE77785-B1A4-4D2E-9936-DA8AD2AA5C51@mac.com> Message-ID: <200511150308.jAF38be05300@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > > > On Nov 14, 2005, at 2:32 AM, BillK wrote: > > > > They also cite the company's treatment of its employees, whose average > > annual income is under $14,000... > > > > Hmm. I wonder why our ire is not also focused on a government that > a) owns over 40% of the land; > b) takes over 50% of the product of everyone's labor by force... I am far more horrified and > utterly pissed at the government than at WalMart... > > - samantha Some fiend has samantha locked in the back room and is using her computer! Look for a ransom note. Samantha, wow, this is spoken like a true minarcho-capitalist. We are proud of you. Sounds about right to me. Somewhere in this I should point out that I had far worse jobs as a teenager than Walmart. I woulda been pleased to work there. Of course I would know that it was only a springboard, as I knew some of the jobs I had back then were. spike From joel.pitt at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:12:23 2005 From: joel.pitt at gmail.com (Joel Peter William Pitt) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:12:23 +1300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for a superboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is incredibly hard to take them seriously or prevent myself from laughing at them. I guess it is my way of coping over them trying to tell me what DNA I can have in my body or not. In honestly it just makes me fume. Of course, we have to take all this with a rational and straight face in the interests of good PR. -Joel On 11/15/05, Neil H. wrote: > The Dallas Morning News has an anti-transhumanist op-ed by a senior fellow > at the Discovery Institute (a conservative Christian think-tank). > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-smith_13edi.ART.State.Edition1.2f25c31.html > > Some quotes: > > Look out, America: The trajectory of science is coming into conflict with > venerable human values and even our self-definition as a species, raising > urgent ethical issues that will have to be answered before it is too late. > ... > > The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that all human beings have > equal moral worth, regardless of their abilities or capacities. This > objective standard is now threatened by "personhood theory," which holds > that rights only belong to "persons," a status earned by possessing minimal > cognitive capacities. If personhood theory supplants sanctity of life as the > governing ethic of society, it would open the door to harvesting organs from > people like Terri Schiavo or permitting biotechnologists to "farm" cloned > fetuses for use in drug testing or experiments in genetic engineering. > ... > If scientists can insert human DNA into animal embryos, then animal DNA > could just as easily be inserted into human embryos. Such experiments are > far from unthinkable. A social movement called "transhumanism" advocates the > creation of a "post human species," which would include using animal genes > in progeny to increase strength or make senses more acute. > ... > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:19:57 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:19:57 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elon Musk on SpaceX's future rockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/15/05, Neil H. wrote: > > Elon Musk, the former CEO of Paypal and current CEO of SpaceX, discusses > his work with privately developing low-cost, high-reliability rockets. In > the long term, he intends to build a Saturn V-class vehicle, dubbed the > "BFR," which would be useful for transporting the infrastructure needed to > colonize the Moon and Mars. > > http://thespacereview.com/article/497/1 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX > > Looks like he's going for an updated Nova http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/nova.htm Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From riel at surriel.com Tue Nov 15 03:52:21 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:52:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? In-Reply-To: <4902d9990511120405l93d571biaac6125698296285@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511081900.jA8J0Be04712@tick.javien.com> <006901c5e50f$11892d40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001c01c5e5eb$c7380620$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <001201c5e61e$e8be4c40$fd084e0c@MyComputer> <1131679960.12021.501.camel@localhost.localdomain> <002b01c5e6ef$0d5195f0$540a4e0c@MyComputer> <4375477E.1090604@goldenfuture.net> <4902d9990511120405l93d571biaac6125698296285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On 11/12/05, Joseph Bloch wrote: > > I've always wondered about those statistics, which say that people in > > under-developed countries make $x an hour. Do those figures take into > > account the buying power of a dollar in that country? > > They don't. And, as you say, taking into account purchasing power > makes those figures more reasonable. Not really. If you've ever lived in a poorer country, you will know that most people simply have way less than in rich countries. Cost of living at their style of living is cheaper, but that isn't by choice. It is because they cannot afford the style of living that many of them would like to be able to afford. Having said that, many consumers in rich countries also cannot afford the style of living they enjoy, and simply pile up debt... -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From riel at surriel.com Tue Nov 15 04:02:18 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:02:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, John K Clark wrote: > "The Avantguardian" > > > Do you measure your happiness in the saving of a few > > pennies here and there? > > Yes, that is one of the keys of Sam Walton's success, money is the way to > keep score, it lets you know if you're wining or losing the war on poverty. So do you consider Walmart's increasing of the number of people living below the poverty line to be a win or a loss ? > But I was thinking more of the formation of all those third world > sweatshops he encouraged; Employing people who previously used to work for slightly more money, in sweatshops for Walmart's previous competitors, which went out of business due to price pressure... -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From riel at surriel.com Tue Nov 15 04:22:09 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:22:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs In-Reply-To: <5366105b0511112032u349117a1yf9860a62c63a27a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051112040941.48C9257F2F@finney.org> <5366105b0511112032u349117a1yf9860a62c63a27a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Jay Dugger wrote: > > I'd be interested in hearing about other blogs maintained by current > > and former list members. Maybe we could make a list. Mine is at http://blogs.surriel.com/ > More generally, what other social software do you commonly use? For > instance, who else keeps bookmarks on del.icio.us I keep bookmarks on del.icio.us, host a number of wikis (linux-mm.org, wiki.kernelnewbies.org), have experimental anti-spam software (spamikaze.org) and am on IRC all day long (especially #kernelnewbies on OFTC)... -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 15 05:21:27 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:21:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Arrow of morality redux Message-ID: <22360fa10511142121s49dc4f2fyb18cc09f739dd8d1@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Nov 14, 2005, at 2:57 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > > > > > I see technological risk accelerating at a rate faster than the > > development of individual human intelligence (which gives us much of > > our built-in sense of morality), and faster than cultural intelligence > > (from which we get moral guidance based on societal beliefs) but > > maybe--just maybe--not faster than technologically based amplification > > of human values exploiting accelerating instrumental knowledge to > > implement effective decision-making which, as I've explained elsewhere > > in more detail, is a more encompassing concept of morality. > > > > I agree that IA is very important. A critical distinction is that this system of intelligence amplification is necessarily composed of multiple independent viewpoints. It is not sufficient to merely amplify the capabilities of a single self--a single set of values--for the same reason that a single point of view, from its own perspective, seems self-consistent at any instant, regardless of its actual correspondence with reality (with what works over increasing scope.) > However it is not obvious that > higher effective intelligence and much more effective decision making > [redundant?] will lead to more moral or wise goals. Yes, those terms seem redundant. I emphasized two terms, but they were (1) increasing awareness of (subjective) values exploiting (2) increasing awareness of (objective) instrumental knowledge to implement increasingly effective decision-making. The "morality" of a choice is always evaluated from a subjective viewpoint because "goodness" is always relative to values which are necessarily subjective. The "wisdom" of a choice is a measure of the (increasingly objective) effectiveness of a moral choice. > It could lead to > much more efficiently implementing the same old goals and > prejudices. Again, the higher level intelligence requires elements providing *independent* inputs to the process. > I still believe it is a net great improvement to > today's insanity as so much of it seems to grow out of rank > stupidity. Yes, there is the wisdom of crowds and there is the mass insanity of crowds, depending on whether the multiple inputs tend to correct each other or to reinforce each other. > If higher intelligence could be more tied to critical > examination of current assumptions and goals and much more aware > choosing of goals then we would see much greater improvement. But > how are you going to get pst the propensity of human beings to ignore > the knowledge they do have and the amount of decision making power > they now possess? Yes, this is why I often refer to the need for a social framework whereby individual subjective values compete on an objective basis and those that survive are promoted to compete at successively higher levels of abstraction. Each level would provide payoffs for participation, somewhat analogous to the way cells benefit from their contribution to the larger organism. But far from resembling the Borg, such a system thrives on diversity to achieve higher level goals in common. - Jef http://www.jefallbright.net From femmechakra at hotmail.com Tue Nov 15 06:41:46 2005 From: femmechakra at hotmail.com (Anna Tylor) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:41:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouragedon almost-final version In-Reply-To: <4371179E.9060504@pobox.com> Message-ID: >If I had wanted someone else to read what I had composed then I would have >sent it to them but I sent to it to you to get your direct response. I >wanted your opinion, not anybody else's. If >you think that you are that >important that you need not reply, then maybe what you wrote >about >regarding "trying to accomplish good when the matters occurs, levels of >organization in G.I >and ETHICAL cognitive enhancement must be based upon >popularity report! And in response to: I think it would help clarify your thinking if you used more formal language. One of the reasons formal language is, in fact, widely used for these types of things is because it helps people clarify complex thoughts - both for their own benefit, and to help communicate those thoughts to other people. (Having great ideas is of little use if no one else understands them. It is a fact of life, fair or unfair, that the burden of getting others to understand your thoughts falls more on you than on anyone else, because only you truly control how you express your thoughts.) For example: by mr. whatever >I don't know about "formal language", but I didn't write my post..they >where written quotes >by very intelligent people..so for Mr. whatever to tell me that I need to >use formal language is like >slapping Albert Eistein(or Tesla, Newton, or >ect (Based on my copied info) in the face. >I understood that if what I posted people can't understand well maybe i'm >not posting the right information..or i'm not being clear but I still >wouldn't regard it as using "Formal language". If Mr. Whatever doesn't >understand what I copied, well too bad for him, I understood it, that's why I copied it! I was hoping you did! Thank you for educating me.next time i'll post with people that are more interested in intellectual ideas and not so much as being formal! >From: "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" >Reply-To: ExI chat list >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments >encouragedon almost-final version >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:24:46 -0800 > >Hal Finney wrote: >> >>Nevertheless I couldn't help recalling our discussion last month >>initiated by Robin Hanson, on the utility of scenario-based forecasting. >>(Thread title was "Inside Vs. Outside Forecasts".) Some of the advice >>in the proposed document amounts to creating inside-type forecasts, >>i.e. setting up scenarios, looking at probable outcomes, and making >>decisions on that basis. The paper we discussed last month shows that >>this forecasting methodology is not very good, unfortunately. It is >>prone to cognitive biases of many kinds. > >Correct. I name also an additional cognitive bias: defensibility. >Cost-benefit analyses aim at warding off anxiety about catastrophe, or >blame in the event of catastrophe. Warding off actual catastrophe is a >great deal harder. You do not realize this until you have written a >careful, elaborate analysis of risks and benefits (such as appears in >http://singinst.org/CFAI/policy.html) and then it turns out that Nature >would have gone ahead and killed you anyway, even though you'd conducted a >cost-benefit analysis. How unreasonable of Nature! What more does She >want from us? At that point I first realized the incredible difficulty gap >between fulfilling a deontological obligation to perform a risk analysis, >and actually avoiding risk. You can always perform a risk analysis - it >requires merely that you quantify your ignorance. There's no guarantee that >survival is even possible - this requires nonignorance, and nonignorance >can be arbitrarily difficult to obtain. It is in the nature of >deontological social obligations that they tend to be fulfillable, which >tells you something about their distance from the real world. > >George Orwell wrote: "In our time, political speech and writing are >largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of >British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of >the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments >which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with >the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to >consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness." > >Humanity can survive the loss of a thousand people, or a million people; it >survives fifty-five million deaths every year. It is therefore appropriate >to trade off the risk of fatal side effects against probable benefits of >life-saving pharmaceuticals, to minimize net casualties. This is the >argument which is too brutal for most people to face: it requires accepting >that every now and then, even after performing a cost-benefit analysis, the >Proactionary Principle will kill a few thousand people - loudly, visibly, >in full public view. The Precautionary Principle kills many more people, >but silently. > >If human beings did not age, but still suffered accidents, we would in no >sense be immortal; we would live only until one of life's many dangers cut >us down. The human species is like an unaging individual human; it has >survived this far only because there has not been *any* significant, >recurring danger of extinction. Once we enter the realm where existential >risk becomes *possible*, it imposes a death sentence on humankind, unless >the window of vulnerability is bounded, and small. No existential risk can >ever be realized, even once. It is as if you did not age, but you were >still vulnerable to all ordinary accidents, and you absolutely had to >survive at all costs. The Proactionary Principle does not inculcate a >mindset appropriate to such a task. It is the creed of someone who can >never really be hurt, as humankind can never really be hurt by a >pharmaceutical mistakenly approved. > >-- >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ >Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. From femmechakra at hotmail.com Tue Nov 15 06:46:43 2005 From: femmechakra at hotmail.com (Anna Tylor) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:46:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments encouragedon almost-final version In-Reply-To: <4371179E.9060504@pobox.com> Message-ID: >and in regards to wikipedia..maybe you need to use formal language to get >your point accross:) Anna >From: "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" >Reply-To: ExI chat list >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Proactionary Principle: comments >encouragedon almost-final version >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:24:46 -0800 > >Hal Finney wrote: >> >>Nevertheless I couldn't help recalling our discussion last month >>initiated by Robin Hanson, on the utility of scenario-based forecasting. >>(Thread title was "Inside Vs. Outside Forecasts".) Some of the advice >>in the proposed document amounts to creating inside-type forecasts, >>i.e. setting up scenarios, looking at probable outcomes, and making >>decisions on that basis. The paper we discussed last month shows that >>this forecasting methodology is not very good, unfortunately. It is >>prone to cognitive biases of many kinds. > >Correct. I name also an additional cognitive bias: defensibility. >Cost-benefit analyses aim at warding off anxiety about catastrophe, or >blame in the event of catastrophe. Warding off actual catastrophe is a >great deal harder. You do not realize this until you have written a >careful, elaborate analysis of risks and benefits (such as appears in >http://singinst.org/CFAI/policy.html) and then it turns out that Nature >would have gone ahead and killed you anyway, even though you'd conducted a >cost-benefit analysis. How unreasonable of Nature! What more does She >want from us? At that point I first realized the incredible difficulty gap >between fulfilling a deontological obligation to perform a risk analysis, >and actually avoiding risk. You can always perform a risk analysis - it >requires merely that you quantify your ignorance. There's no guarantee that >survival is even possible - this requires nonignorance, and nonignorance >can be arbitrarily difficult to obtain. It is in the nature of >deontological social obligations that they tend to be fulfillable, which >tells you something about their distance from the real world. > >George Orwell wrote: "In our time, political speech and writing are >largely the defense of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of >British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of >the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments >which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with >the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to >consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness." > >Humanity can survive the loss of a thousand people, or a million people; it >survives fifty-five million deaths every year. It is therefore appropriate >to trade off the risk of fatal side effects against probable benefits of >life-saving pharmaceuticals, to minimize net casualties. This is the >argument which is too brutal for most people to face: it requires accepting >that every now and then, even after performing a cost-benefit analysis, the >Proactionary Principle will kill a few thousand people - loudly, visibly, >in full public view. The Precautionary Principle kills many more people, >but silently. > >If human beings did not age, but still suffered accidents, we would in no >sense be immortal; we would live only until one of life's many dangers cut >us down. The human species is like an unaging individual human; it has >survived this far only because there has not been *any* significant, >recurring danger of extinction. Once we enter the realm where existential >risk becomes *possible*, it imposes a death sentence on humankind, unless >the window of vulnerability is bounded, and small. No existential risk can >ever be realized, even once. It is as if you did not age, but you were >still vulnerable to all ordinary accidents, and you absolutely had to >survive at all costs. The Proactionary Principle does not inculcate a >mindset appropriate to such a task. It is the creed of someone who can >never really be hurt, as humankind can never really be hurt by a >pharmaceutical mistakenly approved. > >-- >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ >Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 06:53:46 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:53:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> It looks like whenever the name Wal-Mart is uttered, it occasions an outpouring of statements so silly as to be childish. Like "money is bad" (was it Stuart who wrote it?). It is purely puerile, and so surprising coming from Stuart who is otherwise quite smart. Or consider this gem: > So do you consider Walmart's increasing of the number of > people living below the poverty line to be a win or a loss ? > Dumb, whoever wrote it. Walmart obviously is not increasing the number of poor people, it is paying them money, not taking it away from them. Anybody with even a modicum of economic sense will see it. I bet the stupid losers who were running around the English countryside three hundred years ago, breaking steam machines, were screaming the same inanities: " 'Tis an Outrage, for the pestilential Engines to rob the honest Countryfolk of their Income, and consign them to the wretched Lives of Vagabonds!" Luckily, the Constables made short work of Nedd and his ilk, so we can now enjoy the fruits of Mechanical Progress. It might be helpful for the Walmart-bashers to try to think about the object of their hate as nothing but a machine for conveying goods from point A to B, like a truck. Obviously, a single truck makes a dozen burro-teams obsolete - but I do sincerely hope that nobody on this list will argue in favor of banning semis and opening the highways to mules and oxcarts. And equally obviously, a faster, cheaper, safer, more reliable truck is always better (and I mean better for everybody, for the whole society, not just its owner) than the older one based on the T-model - and Wal-Mart is better, too, in the economic and moral sense of improving the fulfullment of human aspirations. Wal-Mart is nothing but a glorified trucking business, not a coven of Satanists, nothing worth writing 70+ posts about. Why don't the extropians argue about the Singularity, or methods for interstellar propulsion, or something else that's not wta-talk stuff (i.e. leftist claptrap)? Rafal PS. Here is another piece of nonsense: > Employing people who previously used to work for slightly more > money, in sweatshops for Walmart's previous competitors, which > went out of business due to price pressure... > Tell this to the Chinese peasants who buy their first cars thanks to the massive growth in industrial productivity in part spurred by increased export opportunities to the US. From femmechakra at hotmail.com Tue Nov 15 07:11:58 2005 From: femmechakra at hotmail.com (Anna Tylor) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:11:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out In-Reply-To: <20051111183009.33827.qmail@web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I thank you for your advice, but I didn't write that formal language. I >just copied and pasted:) >If my copying and pasting where not understandable, I apoligize. Although >I, may have fully >understood, you may have been right by saying; " both >for their own benefit, and to help communicate those >thoughts to other people. (Having great ideas is of little use if no >one else understands them. It is a fact of life, fair or unfair, that >the burden of getting others to understand your thoughts falls more on >you than on anyone else, because only you truly control how you express >your thoughts." >I asked for an opinion from Yudkowsly..and you gave it to me, so I thank >you. But in regards to formal language you will have to debate with the >people I copied and >pasted from..unfortunately you'll have to explain why they aren't >communicating properly:) Anna >Reply-To: ExI chat list >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:30:09 -0800 (PST) > >--- Anna Tylor wrote: > > This is my first publication..i really have no idea what i'm talking > > about!..lol > > I just want an opinion > >I think it would help clarify your thinking if you used more formal >language. One of the reasons formal language is, in fact, widely used >for these types of things is because it helps people clarify complex >thoughts - both for their own benefit, and to help communicate those >thoughts to other people. (Having great ideas is of little use if no >one else understands them. It is a fact of life, fair or unfair, that >the burden of getting others to understand your thoughts falls more on >you than on anyone else, because only you truly control how you express >your thoughts.) For example: > > > A model of mind-body is proposed: a potential ideal of > > computational leverage > >Lose the colons. You're using them to denote association, but it is >better to explicitly state what the association is. Also, note the >object that performs any action. In this case, you might want: > >"I propose a model of mind-body. It is a potential ideal of >computational leverage." > >Once you have it in that form, you can more easily see where more >detail can be added (adding detail being one of the things that will >help clarify your thoughts), or simply restate your thoughts more >directly. For example: > >"I propose a model of the mind-body relationship. Accurately modelling >that relationship can help turn mere computation into true artificial >intelligence." > > > Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties > > of the universe (such as space, time, and number of > > dimensions) derived from modern physics consistency > > arguments. > >Again, formal language: > >"Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties of the universe >(such as space, time, and number of dimensions) are derived from modern >physics consistency arguments." > >That second "are" can make more difference than it seems at first. > >And so forth throughout the document. >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. From bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 15 08:51:09 2005 From: bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk (bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:51:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [extropy-chat] teaching extropian subjects In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051114090012.07c5ac18@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051115085109.48418.qmail@web26704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I'd be happy to collaborate in the development of Extropian and General Transhumanist educational / teaching material. December/January *should* be the time of year I get a little more time to work on non day-job projects too. I was thinking along the Modular Subject line that the UKs Open University uses, so that a full Qualification can be assembled using accepted Modules that reflect the personal interests and requirements of the individual students. I must say, 'Masters of Science in Studies of the Future' sounds like an excellent graduate program. I wish there was something similar here in the UK... Julian --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > At 02:49 AM 11/14/2005, you wrote: > >I've been working on a similar project in the UK > >(although it's been shelved for a few months due to > >day job work pressure). > > > >What we need is a structured syllabus for > >Transhumanist & Extropian flavoured memes. > > I agree in total! I'm finishing up my master thesis > right now and want to > focus on this as soon as possible - that would be in > January. One of ExI's > goals is to offer a course on the future through > Extropy Institute. The > material I have accumulated from my masters degree > is highly relevant for > this (Masters of Science in Studies of the Future). > Most of my work in > this graduate program has been related to > transhumanism in general and > Extropy Institute and the future in particular. > > I'll collaborate with anyone who wants to teach! > > Best wishes, > Natasha > > > Natasha > Vita-More > Cultural Strategist - Designer > Future Studies, University of Houston > President, Extropy > Institute > Member, Association of > Professional Futurists > Founder, > Transhumanist Arts & > Culture > Honorary Vice-Chair, > World Transhumanist > Association > Senior Associate, Foresight > Institute > Advisor, Alcor Life Extension > Foundation > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only > what's inside the circle, > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you > study what is inside the > circle and everything outside the circle, then that > is an open system > perspective. > Buckminster Fuller > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > "Fahrkarte bis zur Endstation!" ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From eugen at leitl.org Tue Nov 15 10:55:06 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:55:06 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: riots in France In-Reply-To: <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> References: <200511101735.jAAHZBe15579@tick.javien.com> <003d01c5e6be$815a4a40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <22360fa10511130922u68cd59a4g17a2c03f08836aad@mail.gmail.com> <5C54245E-9B3A-4A3E-99AB-375EA3EA7FC0@mac.com> <1D3D0BF7-0A1D-473C-95AD-E939A764D914@mac.com> Message-ID: <20051115105506.GZ2249@leitl.org> On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:27:54PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > With material plenty do you think this is likely? But wait, I > thoroughly believe in the right to obtain and bear arms. So we may > disagree or which kinds of things are a problem. A nano-factory > cannot produce anything it doesn't have a blueprint for. That is I can readily provide you a blueprint for a desktop isotope enrichment plant. Right to bear arms, sure. Nuclear arms, though? Ecovorous self-replicators? You can't brush off those a la toner wars. > one level of control. Nanofactories could come with certain built-in > restrictions giving another level of control. The problems could Yeah, DRM from hell. > also be addressed by something like the broadcast model proposed by > Ralph Merkle (http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/selfRepJBIS.html). Broadcast isn't a safety precaution. Broadcast is incompatible with locally asynchronous operations anyway. > Generally speaking I am more interested in empowering people and in > fighting abuses they actually do commit than in keeping them > harmless by decreasing their abilities and access. We'll see the same proliferation issues as with nuclear power today, only worse. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 15 17:00:21 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:00:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com><000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> Jack Parkinson > John still has not said why it is he believes that a > Wal-Mart market monopoly It must come as quite a shock to Target, Home Depot, Best Buys, Lows, Circuit City, Macy's, Radio Shack and many others in the retail sector to find out that Wal-Mart is a monopoly and therefore despite appearances they so not exist. And I must say that the Extropian List is the last place I'd expect to find a pack of Neo Luddites. > is in in any sense more 'free market' or 'efficient' > than several thousand smaller stores This statement more than any other proves that you have no idea want "Free Market" means. Wal-Mart is more Free Market than ten thousand mom and pop stores because it competed with them in the Free Market and mom and pop lost; perhaps consumers did like the home town values or whatever other bullshit virtues they were supposed to radiate, but they did not like them enough to make up for mom and pop's price gouging. > corporate activity should be judged by benefits > accruing to EVERY sector of society I pretty much agree, the only slight disagreement we have is who should judge a subjective and controversial thing like "benefit". I think it should be judged by workers who vote with their feet and consumers who vote with their dollars. You think it should be judged by Jack Parkinson. > I submit that Wal-Mart does not effectively serve every > sector, in fact it primarikly seves a miniscule portion > of it - the Waltons. Fine, if that's the way you feel then don't work at Wal-Mart and don't shop at Wal-Mart, but what I object to is that you want in effect to force people like me who profoundly disagree with your premise to act the same way you do by shutting down Wal-Mart. You shop where you like, just let me do the same. John K Clark From allsop at extropy.org Tue Nov 15 17:14:31 2005 From: allsop at extropy.org (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:14:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for asuperboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511151714.jAFHEZ6o006461@ra.pacificwebworks.com> Folks, The last paragraph is the best: "All of the natural boundaries are up for grabs. All of the boundaries that have defined us as human beings, boundaries between a human being and an animal on one side and between a human being and a super human being or a god on the other. The boundaries of life, the boundaries of death. These are the questions of the 21st century, and nothing could be more important." Brent Allsop -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Nov 15 17:49:18 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (M.B. Baumeister) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:49:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com><000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> > John K. Clark said: > > Wal-Mart is more Free Market than ten thousand mom and pop > stores because it competed with them in the Free Market and mom and pop > lost; perhaps consumers did like the home town values or whatever other > bullshit virtues they were supposed to radiate, but they did not like them > enough to make up for mom and pop's price gouging. Price gouging? I would not have said that. Indeed consumers might not have liked mom and pop's *pricing*, but IMHO mom and pop probably were *not* price *gouging*. When we consider economy of scale, mom and pop were likely doing the best they could. Now, with fuel prices rising in the USA, mom and pop have more appeal. Where's the savings if you have to spend $5 or $10 to get to and from WalMart? I, for one, am doing more shopping locally and on-line, unless I'm aleady near a WalMart. I don't make any special trips to shop there - although I know folks who do. Many of them make a hobby of shopping! ;) They do have some excellent bargains, though, and some things I cannot find elsewhere. Regards, MB From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 15 17:55:28 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:55:28 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for asuperboy - or a dogboy? References: Message-ID: <017601c5ea0d$df2d2780$160b4e0c@MyComputer> > The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that [blah blah blah] It's odd, there is nothing really wrong with the word but it's a fact that I've never seen the phrase "The sanctity of X" used in support of anything I agreed with. Not once. The same is true of "level the playing field" and "you can't cry fire in a crowded theater" and "I believe in free speech but.....". John K Clark From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Nov 15 18:05:13 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (M.B. Baumeister) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:05:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for asuperboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: <017601c5ea0d$df2d2780$160b4e0c@MyComputer> References: <017601c5ea0d$df2d2780$160b4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <47303.72.236.103.28.1132077913.squirrel@main.nc.us> >> The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that [blah blah blah] > > It's odd, there is nothing really wrong with the word but it's a fact that > I've never seen the phrase "The sanctity of X" used in support of anything > I > agreed with. Not once. The same is true of "level the playing field" and > "you can't cry fire in a crowded theater" and "I believe in free speech > but.....". > > John K Clark > > Well said, IMHO! I'm gonna forward it to my family. :) May even want to borrow it for a .sig file. :) I'd be inclined to add "for the children" in that whiney voice that indicates *nothing* to do with children. Regards, MB From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Nov 15 18:07:54 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:07:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051115180754.67409.qmail@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Anna Tylor wrote: > >I thank you for your advice, but I didn't write that formal > language. I > >just copied and pasted:) You said it was your first publication. It is not your publication if you did not play any part in writing it. Copying & pasting someone else's words does not make it "your" publication. I'm willing to believe that you made this mistake innocently (as in, you're new to this and didn't know any better), but watch out in the future. C&Ping someone else's work and claiming it is yours - as you did by saying it was your publication - is stealing and plagarism, and many people (especially among those you'd want to read something like this) have very little tolerance for that. Also, it wasn't very formal language, no matter what the source. That was the original problem I was pointing out. You might also want to watch out for what you do pass around: that publication was so ill-formed that some other members of this list were, in private emails, saying I should not respond to a "kook" - as in, someone passing off ideas that can never in fact be reduced to practice, and whose noise does not help anyone make actual progress. I suspect your problem may be more one of inexperience, though: as you gain experience with this sort of thing, you'll recognize when you're faced with these sorts of ideas, and learn why so many people correctly believe that to spend much time on them is a waste of time - and, perhaps, learn how to convert some of them into ideas that could result in actually accomplishing something, which others would be more willing to help with. So...you have made a total of three mistakes here, at least one of which (plagarism) many people would never forgive you for. You are given this chance to learn, so that you never again repeat those mistakes. > >But in regards to formal language you will have to debate with > the > >people I copied and > >pasted from..unfortunately you'll have to explain why they aren't > >communicating properly:) I already explained that. Copy and paste my explanation to them (but don't claim it's yours!) if you want. From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 15 18:46:49 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:46:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com><000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer><005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <018b01c5ea14$f7b18920$160b4e0c@MyComputer> "M.B. Baumeister" > When we consider economy of scale, mom and pop were > likely doing the best they could. Who cares. Consumers are not interested in excuses and neither am I. Perhaps the extra money they charged went into mom and pop's pockets or maybe it just evaporated due to incompetence and other inefficiencies, it doesn't matter to me. All that matter to me when I buy an ice cream cone is how good it tastes and how much it costs. And, judging from Wal-Mart's victory over mom and pop I am not very unusual in that regard. > Now, with fuel prices rising in the USA, mom and pop have more appeal. I rather doubt you are right but it's the market that decides such things not me. If you are right and the market puts Wal-Mart out of business and mom and pop comes back in a big way you will hear no complaint from me. But remember, Wal-Mart was once a little mom and pop store, they just did things a little more efficiently than anybody else, and with Wal-Mart now out of business there is a big hole in the economic ecosystem that will not stay empty forever. John K Clark From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Nov 15 19:14:48 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for asuperboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: <017601c5ea0d$df2d2780$160b4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20051115191448.85591.qmail@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > > The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that [blah blah blah] > > It's odd, there is nothing really wrong with the word but it's a fact > that > I've never seen the phrase "The sanctity of X" used in support of > anything I > agreed with. Not once. The same is true of "level the playing field" > and > "you can't cry fire in a crowded theater" and "I believe in free > speech > but.....". Just for grins, how's this? In order to better defend the sanctity of our lives, we should develop methods of immortality, and stem to the maximum amount possible humanity's loss of this sacred quantity. To level the playing field among all peoples regardless of genetic heritage or unfortunate accidents, we should develop methods of human augmentation, for instance so that those born blind or who lose their eyes may see again. I believe in free speech, but I believe those who speak against these things are trying to condemn us all to a certain fate just because all of our ancestors shared it (save for certain very recent ancestors, and they view those cases as just a matter of time). Just as you shouldn't cry fire in a crowded theater, you shouldn't spark moral panics just because you personally have an emotional reaction to something: if a thing truly is bad, dispassionately double-checking your gut reaction against the facts will prove it, and perhaps give you better ways to counter it. All of these things beg consideration of the future that all of us share - so if you won't consider them for your own benefit, won't you please at least think of the children? ;) From bret at bonfireproductions.com Tue Nov 15 19:26:42 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for a superboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31EC2DF1-EF02-4EA2-BB26-77072BFD20D8@bonfireproductions.com> Geez. I hope this fellow never needs any Insulin. Neigh. ]3 On Nov 14, 2005, at 9:38 PM, Neil H. wrote: > The Dallas Morning News has an anti-transhumanist op-ed by a senior > fellow at the Discovery Institute (a conservative Christian think- > tank). > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/ > stories/DN-smith_13edi.ART.State.Edition1.2f25c31.html > > Some quotes: > > Look out, America: The trajectory of science is coming into > conflict with venerable human values and even our self-definition > as a species, raising urgent ethical issues that will have to be > answered before it is too late. > ... > > The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that all human beings > have equal moral worth, regardless of their abilities or > capacities. This objective standard is now threatened by > "personhood theory," which holds that rights only belong to > "persons," a status earned by possessing minimal cognitive > capacities. If personhood theory supplants sanctity of life as the > governing ethic of society, it would open the door to harvesting > organs from people like Terri Schiavo or permitting > biotechnologists to "farm" cloned fetuses for use in drug testing > or experiments in genetic engineering. > ... > If scientists can insert human DNA into animal embryos, then animal > DNA could just as easily be inserted into human embryos. Such > experiments are far from unthinkable. A social movement called > "transhumanism" advocates the creation of a "post human species," > which would include using animal genes in progeny to increase > strength or make senses more acute. > ... > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bret at bonfireproductions.com Tue Nov 15 19:36:08 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:36:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for asuperboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: <200511151714.jAFHEZ6o006461@ra.pacificwebworks.com> References: <200511151714.jAFHEZ6o006461@ra.pacificwebworks.com> Message-ID: <623D7F11-FB8E-43F3-9F7F-88080E68CAEB@bonfireproductions.com> Not to play 3rd stage guild navigator here, but I see 2+ groups, on opposite sides of this paragraph, each gearing up for the long haul. I don't think both sides are listening. Is this it? Is this the one? The line in the sand? Yikes. I guess we can expect more before we get less. I hope this is generational. There must be enough things out there by now, like (cringe) 'The Matrix' that could pollute enough young on the other side of this statement... the iPod will help. ]3 On Nov 15, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Brent Allsop wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > > The last paragraph is the best: > > > > "All of the natural boundaries are up for grabs. All of the > boundaries that have defined us as human beings, boundaries between > a human being and an animal on one side and between a human being > and a super human being or a god on the other. The boundaries of > life, the boundaries of death. These are the questions of the 21st > century, and nothing could be more important." > > > > Brent Allsop > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 15 19:51:12 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:51:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051115141802.07cb5d60@unreasonable.com> M.B. Baumeister wrote: >Now, with fuel prices rising in the USA, mom and pop have more appeal. >Where's the savings if you have to spend $5 or $10 to get to and from >WalMart? I, for one, am doing more shopping locally and on-line, unless >I'm aleady near a WalMart. I don't make any special trips to shop there - >although I know folks who do. Many of them make a hobby of shopping! ;) Fuel prices are clearly a tangential matter in this discussion, but (a) High fuel costs do lead to shopping nearer to home, but also to larger, less frequent expeditions, for which the fuel cost and travel time are compensated for by a reduced total cost and total time. (b) Small stores will often be sited in the vicinity of a large store that attracts customers. They will also, occasionally, combine forces. Amid our miles-long shopping mecca is a strip of three stores side-by-side -- one sells audio equipment, one sells music, and one sells musical instruments. Both are interesting replications of patterns we see in cross-species symbioses in the wild. (c) Fuel prices are not rising in the USA. Gas prices nearby have been dropping daily. They'd hit $3.30 a gallon after Katrina and are down to at or under $2.00. -- David. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Nov 15 20:46:26 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (M.B. Baumeister) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:46:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051115141802.07cb5d60@unreasonable.com> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> <6.2.3.4.2.20051115141802.07cb5d60@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <47353.72.236.103.133.1132087586.squirrel@main.nc.us> > (c) Fuel prices are not rising in the USA. Gas prices nearby have > been dropping daily. They'd hit $3.30 a gallon after Katrina and are > down to at or under $2.00. > Lucky you! :) They've certainly dropped here too, but not that much. They're running (last I bought) around $2.25 - $2.50 for regular, which is considerably more than before Katrina. Folks here don't seem to think they're going to stay down either. Among the people I know, many are still curtailing their driving - and their purchasing. Our electric bills have risen and so has garbage collection and furnace cleaning/repairs and home plumbing or electrical repairs - all surcharges because of fuel cost increases. I'd be astounded if those bills drop back any time soon. Regards, MB From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 15 20:53:49 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <47353.72.236.103.133.1132087586.squirrel@main.nc.us> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> <6.2.3.4.2.20051115141802.07cb5d60@unreasonable.com> <47353.72.236.103.133.1132087586.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051115154815.07c60850@unreasonable.com> M.B. Baumeister wrote: > > (c) Fuel prices are not rising in the USA. Gas prices nearby have > > been dropping daily. They'd hit $3.30 a gallon after Katrina and are > > down to at or under $2.00. > >Lucky you! :) They've certainly dropped here too, but not that much. >They're running (last I bought) around $2.25 - $2.50 for regular, which is >considerably more than before Katrina. Your email address suggests that you are in North Carolina, where the lowest price is $1.93 and many spots are at $2.15. See http://www.northcarolinagasprices.com/ That's not bad, considering that New Jersey and Texas are in the $1.80 range. -- David. From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Tue Nov 15 22:20:10 2005 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:20:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for a superboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <437A5F1A.6050002@goldenfuture.net> Bear in mind this wingnut is with the Discovery Institute, one of the leading proponents of Intelligent Design. I don't think it should be dismissed solely on that basis, but it's interesting to see how the anti-bioscience movement seems to be branching out. Joseph Neil H. wrote: > The Dallas Morning News has an anti-transhumanist op-ed by a senior > fellow at the Discovery Institute (a conservative Christian think-tank). > > http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-smith_13edi.ART.State.Edition1.2f25c31.html > > > Some quotes: > > Look out, America: The trajectory of science is coming into conflict > with venerable human values and even our self-definition as a species, > raising urgent ethical issues that will have to be answered before it > is too late. > ... > > The "sanctity/equality of life ethic" holds that all human beings have > equal moral worth, regardless of their abilities or capacities. This > objective standard is now threatened by "personhood theory," which > holds that rights only belong to "persons," a status earned by > possessing minimal cognitive capacities. If personhood theory > supplants sanctity of life as the governing ethic of society, it would > open the door to harvesting organs from people like Terri Schiavo or > permitting biotechnologists to "farm" cloned fetuses for use in drug > testing or experiments in genetic engineering. > ... > If scientists can insert human DNA into animal embryos, then animal > DNA could just as easily be inserted into human embryos. Such > experiments are far from unthinkable. A social movement called > "transhumanism" advocates the creation of a "post human species," > which would include using animal genes in progeny to increase strength > or make senses more acute. > ... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Nov 15 22:22:34 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (M.B. Baumeister) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:22:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051115154815.07c60850@unreasonable.com> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c@MyComputer> <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> <6.2.3.4.2.20051115141802.07cb5d60@unreasonable.com> <47353.72.236.103.133.1132087586.squirrel@main.nc.us> <6.2.3.4.2.20051115154815.07c60850@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <47429.72.236.102.75.1132093354.squirrel@main.nc.us> > > Your email address suggests that you are in North Carolina, where the lowest price is $1.93 and many spots are at $2.15. > > See http://www.northcarolinagasprices.com/ > > That's not bad, considering that New Jersey and Texas are in the $1.80 range. > > Yes, I see that. It shows the lowest prices in my part of the state are well over $2 and about 35 miles from where I live. In my town the lowest listed right now is $2.25. Regards, MB From aiguy at comcast.net Tue Nov 15 23:32:53 2005 From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:32:53 -0500 Subject: Gas Rant was RE: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <47353.72.236.103.133.1132087586.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00ce01c5ea3c$e74e4190$74550318@ZANDRA2> The only reason oil prices are dropping now is that the government is grilling the oil companies on their obscene profits made this year. Watch the oil companies drop the prices just long enough to get the government off their backs or pay some token windfall profit tax like they did in the 70's. As soon as the heat dies down they'll be waiting for another natural disaster or global conflict as an excuse to hike the price even higher. I wouldn't feel as bad if the oil companies were investing the obscene profits into new refineries or alternate energy research above the obligatory token amount. But to do that would loosen one of the supply bottlenecks and drive their prices down. I believe Saudi Arabia when they say the problem is not them. If they produced more oil there is no capacity to refine it. And if they do get around to building more refineries. Let's not let them get away with building in a hurricane zone. The 30-40 year hurricane cycle is just starting and I have a feeling Katrina was just the beginning. >> MB Lucky you! :) They've certainly dropped here too, but not that much. They're running (last I bought) around $2.25 - $2.50 for regular, which is considerably more than before Katrina. Folks here don't seem to think they're going to stay down either. Among the people I know, many are still curtailing their driving - and their purchasing. Our electric bills have risen and so has garbage collection and furnace cleaning/repairs and home plumbing or electrical repairs - all surcharges because of fuel cost increases. I'd be astounded if those bills drop back any time soon. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From femmechakra at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 00:55:51 2005 From: femmechakra at hotmail.com (Anna Tylor) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:55:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out In-Reply-To: <20051115180754.67409.qmail@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >---Adrian Tymes wrote: >>You said it was your first publication. It is not your publication if >>you did not play any part in writing it > >you are absotuly right, I should have written that this is the first time I >have ever posted anything. My apologies to everyone. > >In regards to: >>that publication was so >>ill-formed that some other members of this list were, in private >>emails, saying I should not respond to a "kook" - as in, someone >>passing off ideas that can never in fact be reduced to practice, and >>whose noise does not help anyone make actual progress. I suspect your >>problem may be more one of inexperience, though: as you gain experience >>with this sort of thing, you'll recognize when you're faced with these >>sorts of ideas, and learn why so many people correctly believe that to >>spend much time on them is a waste of time - and, perhaps, learn how to >>convert some of them into ideas that could result in actually >>accomplishing something, which others would be more willing to help >>with. > >Again you are right, inexperience is the problem or better yet the way I >communicate >may be the bigger problem but I still thought I understood it. Anyhow >thank you for >taking the time to respond. If you do have a few more minutes could you at >least look >at what I thought I was reading and tell me if at least some of it makes >sense, it would be much appreciated. These are either my thoughts or >comments about what I thought >I was reading. At this point, at least you will be able to confirm that I >actually am a "kook":) >A model of mind-body is proposed: a potential ideal of >computational leverage >>I am proposing that a computer can enhance the mind to such an extent that >>it becomes a new mind-body experience >Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties of the universe (such >as space, time, and number of dimensions) derived from modern physics >consistency arguments. >>With the use of primitive tools, simple observation, and graphing, a human >>with no knowledge of existing theories could probably come up with simple, >>uncomplicated ideas that may benefit humans that have >>huge knowledge and expertise. >The ideal solution for unlimited intelligence would require a sparse, high >dimensional spacetime (unrestricted locality) and a formalized observer >mechanism (mobile observer framework based on a superset of inertial frame >properties). >>Therefore the ideal solution is that >>the human with ideas needs to contact people that can >>help to explain some "Kook" ideas that someone may have >>(high dimensional spacetime-being the internet) and use >>some form of communication such as the extropy chat (observer framework). >A nonphysical mind really does exist >>A nonphysical mind does exist - the internet >It should be amenable to study in the same fashion as other physical >theories that deal with indirectly observable phenomena. >>It would be fun to study with people about your ideas and thougths, people >>that understand. >Since humans are intelligent as well as conscious, >they can predict computational theory to the key which is a requirement for >a solution to the mind-brain puzzle. >Such a theory must address the representational issue of information versus >knowledge (or knowing). >>To give knowledge and receive knowledge is the key >>to unravel the mind-brain puzzle >The problems.... of vision and language understanding, dynamic motion >control, cryptography, and planning far exceed any conventional computing >machine ability. Future scalability limits ultimately restrict how powerful >a computer we can design or build. >>The problems..How to see, talk and understand someone >>that may not speak the same language (refering to train >>of thought). I don't think a computer can do that yet. >It is for these reasons that understanding ordinary human intelligence may >be a prerequisite to understanding consciousness. >>I thought this was pretty straight forward >These strategies for providing extraordinary computing resources might also >provide insight concerning computational processes with properties suitable >for consciousness. >It is possible that systems that exhibit the self organization required for >human "real intelligence" (nothing artificial about it), may exhibit >consciousness. >>With today's extraordinary computing resources we are >>provided with insight from many different point's of >>view, making it possible for anybody to become aware and intelligent. >Physics must ultimately develop a solution for human "real intelligence", >because it represents an evolutionary, complexity increasing informational >process. >>Physics must find a solution on developing a human's >>"real intelligence", by providing knowledge to anyone >>that wishes to learn and being able to express ideas >>and thoughts, this will only help to increase knowledge. >This process must not violate what physicists know about the evolution of >the complexity of the universe. >>Even though you can't change the laws of physics, you >>can find ways to make people understand them. >The question: Consistency frameworks form the physical foundation for >multiple observational viewpoints or different "Points of View". >>The question: Everybody has a different point of view. >Formally defining the interaction between the observer and the "action or >thing being observed" is part of understanding the observation process. >>Isn't interaction the only way to observe each other and learn from each >>other? The rest is relative probably only to me. It's what I like to study and thought someone might have an opinion. I'm using this to help me study. Thanks again and sorry to have bothered you Anna Historically, scientists have prided themselves in their belief that true science occurs when the observer does not participate or disturb an act of measurement. Unfortunately, quantum physics measurements depend on how a question is asked or what question is asked. If an experiment asks particle questions then the results are particle answers. If an experiment asks wave questions then the results are wave answers. Likewise in relativity, asking how much "energy" is in a system is dependent on the observer's velocity and acceleration. The main idea stated in Einstein's relativity: principle was that "all inertial frames are totally equivalent for the performance of all physical experiments."[18] In other words, no matter where you are in space or what speed you are traveling, the laws of physics must be the same. The laws define the possibility that all actions as well as the process of observing those actions are from any vantage point. One major outcome from relativity was experimental proof that the speed of light is constant no matter how you measure it, and no matter what speed you are traveling. In fact, mass, energy, distance, and time have changing values depending on one's speed. Facts: 1) Consistency is more primitive than conservation laws of energy/mass, or space and time 2) Consistency requires light to follow locally "straight line" geodesics (curved spacetime) 3) Consistency mechanisms behave as superluminal synchronization primitives 4) Consistency mechanisms interact outside normal linear time- excluding illegal time loops 5) Increased dimensionality increases degrees of freedom 6) These ideas appeal to researchers studying the mind and consciousness because certain biological[20], psychological[21], parapsychological[22], and meditative research[23] strongly suggest that these properties are exhibited by the mind. An interesting point to note concerning computational leverage mechanisms is that they deal with cosmological issues such as the framework of spacetime and the structure of the universe, and are thus, "outside the box" of what is normal day-to-day physics. This is not surprising given that the evolution of the mind (both collectively and individually) deals with many of the same issues (information, complexity, and energy) as the evolution of the universe. >From: Adrian Tymes >Reply-To: ExI chat list >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:07:54 -0800 (PST) > >--- Anna Tylor wrote: > > >I thank you for your advice, but I didn't write that formal > > language. I > > >just copied and pasted:) > >You said it was your first publication. It is not your publication if >you did not play any part in writing it. Copying & pasting someone >else's words does not make it "your" publication. > >I'm willing to believe that you made this mistake innocently (as in, >you're new to this and didn't know any better), but watch out in the >future. C&Ping someone else's work and claiming it is yours - as you >did by saying it was your publication - is stealing and plagarism, and >many people (especially among those you'd want to read something like >this) have very little tolerance for that. > >Also, it wasn't very formal language, no matter what the source. That >was the original problem I was pointing out. You might also want to >watch out for what you do pass around: that publication was so >ill-formed that some other members of this list were, in private >emails, saying I should not respond to a "kook" - as in, someone >passing off ideas that can never in fact be reduced to practice, and >whose noise does not help anyone make actual progress. I suspect your >problem may be more one of inexperience, though: as you gain experience >with this sort of thing, you'll recognize when you're faced with these >sorts of ideas, and learn why so many people correctly believe that to >spend much time on them is a waste of time - and, perhaps, learn how to >convert some of them into ideas that could result in actually >accomplishing something, which others would be more willing to help >with. > >So...you have made a total of three mistakes here, at least one of >which (plagarism) many people would never forgive you for. You are >given this chance to learn, so that you never again repeat those >mistakes. > > > >But in regards to formal language you will have to debate with > > the > > >people I copied and > > >pasted from..unfortunately you'll have to explain why they aren't > > >communicating properly:) > >I already explained that. Copy and paste my explanation to them (but >don't claim it's yours!) if you want. >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _________________________________________________________________ MSN? Calendar keeps you organized and takes the effort out of scheduling get-togethers. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 01:59:19 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:59:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051116015919.36018.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Like "money is bad" (was it Stuart who wrote it?). > It is purely > puerile, and so surprising coming from Stuart who is > otherwise quite > smart. > Alright fine. You WalMart-o-philes win. All hail Wal-Mart. Let it supply all goods and services from shoes and food to medical care and gasoline at the cheapest most efficient price. Let it dump unlimited funds into pro-Walmart special interest groups until they control the government too. Then we will have one ubermonopoly that runs the government. That would make it different from the USSR, China, or North Korea how? The Avantguardian is Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If you fear death, you are not living right; if you don't want to live forever, you are not living well." - a sparrow outside my window. __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 15 18:25:36 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Gregory H Coresun) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:25:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Greetings Natasha and Max Moore and all Extropians, I've just now been able to get into Gregory's computer and discovered to my disappointment that no announcement about Gregory's passing has appeared on your list. On October 13th at 9 minutes to midnight, in a hospice 2 minutes away from Alcor in Scottsdale, Arizona, Gregory released his last breath. Alcor personnel was instantly present to give him the necessary medications, we all transferred him into the icebath standing by his bedside, the thumper was started to circulate the meds and an icebag was unceremoniously tossed on his beautiful face. Then they ran out with him to the awaiting truck, where procedures continued and onto Alcor itself. His was the best suspension ever performed, partly because of the latest cryopreservation chemistry and last but not least because I had airlifted him from his deathbed in the ICU of Dominican Hospital to Scottsdale Arizona, so he was able to die on location! This success has given me great spiritual and emotional relief. I managed to get him what he wanted more than anything: A chance at another life in the future when they may be able to restore his brain and he might have a chance of experiencing the fulness of what it means to be human and explore the possibilities of being transhuman as well. In my experience, he is already traveling the stars! After his considerable energy was released from his body, he has come closer to me than was ever remotely possible during our life together. I grieve to never - in this lifetime - behold his dear face again or wrap myself around the goodness of his generous belly, or listen to his quickwitted mind and let myself be steeped and nurtured in the wisdom of his council. He was my true zen master. As some of you may have noticed, his social behavior of avoidance or dominance and his short fuses were easily displayed. If you carry any resentment or have left over negative feelings about him, I invite you to light a candle or a fire and really get into your hurt and/or angry feelings and generously let it all go up into flames. We don't need any unnecessary conflicts and disagreeable feelings amongst one another anymore. He is completely dedicated to the awakening of the individual out of the trance of socialization, whichever trance that happens to be. 'Examine thyself' and 'Know thy desire', would be the two most important councils he has left us with. And then Accept. What is true right now. Be that. In the now, we find ourselves and each other. No difference. Just all of us wearing so many cloaks of different colors. Each of our unique neuroses variations on a theme, which is essentially the same for all of us. The loss of innocence and the loss of trust. We are, most of us, individually and collectively lost at least to some essential degree, however well hidden. It was always such a delight when some bright spirit, whatever age or gender, caught on to the brightness of his being. Once you knew him and got him and your ego wasn't afraid of him, amazing conversations could be had. Sparks would fly. Insights in the human condition or in some scientific problem would be tossed about like flying darts, for whoever was fast enough to catch them. After one of his speedy quipps, he would look at you to see if you got it, like a little kid: "Did you get it? Isn't it funny?" His innocence! I adore him with all of my being, into forever, into and through some very cold temperatures, upwards and forwards into the future, for better or for worse. We're in this forever, to the best of our ability. One of his (and mine) major motives to come into the future is to make sure humanity never loses the awareness of WWII. We must eradicate fascism (e.i. power over others in some and submission by the many). Within two generations we can be rid of most ills that have bedeaveled humanity since the beginnings of murder and mayhem because of some real or perceived scarcity or worse, because of some right the mighty believe they have over others, whether they be religious, political or business world leaders (=top dogs). In his mind and mine, the struggle for survival can become obsolete. We still have plenty of resources. We begin by making sure that humans only beget the children they really want, can house and feed and educate. Imagine every child growing up according to his/her own innate curiosity, being lovingly and respectfully treated like a real human being and not as 'just a kid'. They will be informed of everything which is happening about them in language of kindness they can understand. They shall not be alienated from themselves and each other. When we learn to live like family, all of us, we will undoubtedly set our hearts and minds to the task of healing the human family and its precious habitat. Especially now, since we are in such a precarious state of balance. I believe we can still turn it around before 2012. But the time is definitely now. I will be glad to receive any writings, musings, reflections on him. Please email me at andreavdl at lovingtruth.net, or here to Gregory's email (how about cc to both, thanks) and I will be glad to put together a memorial website with photographs, his artwork and other creations. I am also planning to create an article for the next publication of Cryonics magazine. Deadline for same is the end of this month! Please email me under subject: Gregory's Memorial. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Andrea van de Loo Truth~Transparency~Trust (831) 458-2925 andreavdl at lovingtruth.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ================================= = Gregory Herald Coresun = = - was - = = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = 831 429 8637 = ================================= From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 16 03:30:16 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:30:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready forasuperboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: <017601c5ea0d$df2d2780$160b4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <200511160330.jAG3Uoe20617@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John K Clark ... > "you can't cry fire in a crowded theater" ... > > John K Clark If a crowded theater really did catch fire, nobody would cry fire because they were always told you can't do that there. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 16 03:30:16 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:30:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <47276.72.236.103.28.1132076958.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <200511160330.jAG3Uqe20620@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of M.B. Baumeister > ...I, for one, am doing more shopping locally and on-line... > Regards, MB On-line shopping is something that was mostly left out of this whole discussion. Most US states have a sales tax. On-line companies can set up in one of those states that have no tax. Many manufactured goodies are made in such quantities that the profit margin is down to about 10% before tax. The state of Taxifornia demands 8%, so if the bricks and mortar places match the internet price, it is like the state government saying to them: go ahead and do business, but hand over 80% of the actual profit. We have not discussed how on-line retailers treat their workers or how much they pay, but I suspect in many cases Walmart is a good option for those employees. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 16 03:40:45 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:40:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200511160340.jAG3eme21464@tick.javien.com> > Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) > ... > On October 13th at 9 minutes to midnight, in a hospice 2 minutes away from > Alcor in Scottsdale, Arizona, Gregory released his last breath... This was quite a shock. Hara Ra was always a welcome fixture at the local cryo-schmoozes, a big jolly, friendly, funny guy, boisterous, optimistic, forward looking. As an occasional poster to ExI-chat, he was at a couple of the extro-schmoozes, perhaps 3 and 4? I recall his interests being in cryonics and life extension. May we all be inspired by his making the arrangements for cryonic suspension. He will surely be missed by family, friends and even casual acquaintances. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Nov 16 03:46:35 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:46:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051115214437.01d22a18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:25 AM 11/15/2005 -0800, Andrea van de Loo wrote: >On October 13th at 9 minutes to midnight, in a hospice 2 minutes away from >Alcor in Scottsdale, Arizona, Gregory released his last breath. Alcor >personnel was instantly present to give him the necessary medications How wonderful! Farewell, Hara Ra! Damien Broderick [in tears] From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Wed Nov 16 03:49:02 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:49:02 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511151900.jAFJ0Ae17941@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <002001c5ea60$b24a4920$0201a8c0@JPAcer> > From: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in > France) > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: > <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > It looks like whenever the name Wal-Mart is uttered, it occasions an > outpouring of statements so silly as to be childish. Well that was certainly true of the superficial remarks you made Rafal. Because, if you gave the debate a more than cursory look, you might have realized by now that the economic models we have now are also the models many will advocate for the future. All of this has a direct bearing on the way things might be. I noticed your language included such terms as 'puerile,' 'stupid loser,' and the suggestion of Luddism and ignorance as well as 'childishness.' Not a very mature assessment I would have thought - and more importantly - not a scrap of evidence was supplied! It has been pointed out, and not just by me (if you remove head from sand you might note there are substantial numbers considering these points), that the economic model which is the Wal-Mart style of corporate activity has serious deficiencies in a future context. In particular, it is easily possible to imagine a scenario in which this business model becomes more or less immediately outmoded if nano-manufacturing became possible. BUT... this type of business model does not seem to be something many on this list can evaluate coolly. It's support is almost a cherished belief. This is something I don't understand but am prepared to be enlightened on... Several times I have seen people write here about small business 'price-gouging,' Wal-Mart being 'efficient' and I have also seen 'Mon and Pop' businesses derided as small time and inconsequential. I think these opinions are unsupportable. Because: small businesses with lots of competition can't price gouge, they must compete. And, Wal-Mart to me seems very inefficient once you step away from the corporate to take the national viewpoint. And, Mom and Pop business are surely the 'American dream' in action! So why despise them? So far in this debate, the pro Wal Mart opinions on this list have not been backed up with anything more substantial than blind belief! What is this strange creed? How can people get angry when someone suggests that the dynamics of corporate business can be challenged? I just get the crazy feeling I am talking to hapless victims of propaganda, when I see the derision that is directed towards non-believers... If you want to convince me (and maybe a few others) - then this is the challenge: Demonstrate (don't just sneer or give me another side-stepping opinion piece) exactly HOW Wal Mart is more efficient for America than several thousand smaller stores would be. . And, when I say 'efficient' I don't mean in a company/internal sense - all big companies have a size advantage which leverages their ability to buy and sell. I mean: For the whole of the US. How is Wal-Mart better than the alternatives for America as a whole? I am waiting in anticipation! Jack Parkinson From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Nov 16 05:06:56 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:06:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] History in the making is so bland... Message-ID: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So, being a resident of Mountain View, I watched the City Council meeting where they were discussing Google's proposal to light up city-wide free Wi-Fi. It was your typical public government meeting - comments by one side, comments by the other, everyone keeping to an enforced schedule. (Someone even protested the cost of the war on Iraq. Dude, wrong forum! Mountain View spends no money there, and has no power to directly influence it. But back to the Google bit...) A few highlights: * The "what about radiation exposure" group was out in full force. But due to the way the meeting was structured, and some foresight by the Google rep and the mayor (who I've met and like - you have to be tech-friendly to get elected around here), every issue they brought up had been addressed before they got to read their prepared speeches. "Place all nodes at least 20 feet away from...?" They're apparently planned to be on 30 foot poles, with radiation exposure at 20 feet away (i.e., 10 feet off the ground directly under them) waaay under the FCC's reccomended guidelines - which, they noted, are what cell phones typically operate at. One council member noted that he'd think there'd be a lot more real data about the problem, given the decades we've been exposing ourselves to far more serious RF sources like CB radio. * There's still room for competition, if we find this service unsatisfactory - this only uses about a tenth of the lightpoles in the city. (It also only reaches 80-90% of the city, for want of PG&E owned lightpoles they can get to in the rest.) * The "competing" offer MV had been considering had been from a company planning a for-pay service over a much smaller portion of the city. The agreement for that had been made over a year ago, and despite an extension, they still have yet to deploy, and were already being investigated for that by city staff. * The proposal passed unanimously, with no need for thought: a few seconds after the call was made, all the vote tracker lights went green simultaneously. And the most interesting tidbit... * On the topic of affordability of hardware, the Google rep said that they're a member of the $100 laptop initiative at MIT. Last I'd heard, they were still hemming and hawing about needing to get things down in price, to a degree that suggested that much development was still needed. If I heard him right, the rep casually mentioned that Mr. Negroponte's unveiling the prototype tomorrow in Egypt. Day-umn but I hope I heard him right! ^_^ From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Wed Nov 16 05:53:34 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:53:34 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511151900.jAFJ0Ae17941@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <002b01c5ea72$18e158c0$0801a8c0@EF02jack> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:00:21 -0500 > From: "John K Clark" said: > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <005d01c5ea06$2b4bf9f0$160b4e0c at MyComputer> > > corporate activity should be judged by benefits > > accruing to EVERY sector of society > > I pretty much agree, the only slight disagreement we have is who should > judge a subjective and controversial thing like "benefit". I think it should > be judged by workers who vote with their feet and consumers who vote with > their dollars. You think it should be judged by Jack Parkinson. No, and it's not subjective either! I think it should be done by an analysis of the financial benefit accruing to each sector of society. Eg, How much does Wal Mart return to the community in wages, how much to the nation in taxes, etc. Likewise, on the debit side: How much does it cost. That is, how much financial support does the government provide the company, and how much to the workers on low wages - and finally how much do consumers really save because Wal Mart is more 'efficient' than Mom and Pop..? Then, its a matter of straightforward comparison: Would these figures be overall better or worse in the hypothetical scenario that Wal Mart was replaced by a host of smaller operators? My guess is that smaller operators might well be better. Even if I base this prediction solely on the Wal Mart wealth being in distributed useful usage across a slew of businesses and the fact that those businesses would have to compete in a far more fierce labor market - with far less government assistance. So far no one has even attempted to show that this is wrong. > Fine, if that's the way you feel then don't work at Wal-Mart and don't shop > at Wal-Mart, but what I object to is that you want in effect to force people > like me who profoundly disagree with your premise to act the same way you do > by shutting down Wal-Mart. You shop where you like, just let me do the same. > John K Clark Why do you so profoundly disagree? I'm not suggesting anything heretical surely? Just a look at some basic economic premises that are hardly religious in tone. And concepts like 'efficiency' ARE easily twisted to suit an argument. YOU say (if I understand you right) that 'efficient' means an organisation that can achieve maximum concentration of wealth by keeping production, distribution and selling costs low and selling as high as the market permits. I say on the other hand, that such an organisation is only efficient when considered in isolation. There are other highly relevant factors which can and should be considered before a judgment on real efficiency can be made in absolute terms. For example - taxpayer contributions in the form of government support to support the company are a drag on efficiency, as also are any social security and other government payments that need to be made to the Wal Mart employees as a consequence of the company paying very low wages. On the plus side - you can shop where you want. I'm not trying to force you or anyone else to do anything other than keep an open mind by asking why..? Jack Parkinson From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 16 05:58:14 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:58:14 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <002b01c5ea72$18e158c0$0801a8c0@EF02jack> Message-ID: <200511160558.jAG5wke01791@tick.javien.com> This is a hell of a note. Sony wrote a virus to stop piracy, now it helps virus writers. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff%3D/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1. DTL From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Nov 16 06:21:53 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:21:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051116062153.37874.qmail@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Anna Tylor wrote: > >you are absotuly right, I should have written that this is the first > time I > >have ever posted anything. My apologies to everyone. No worries. Everyone's a newbie to these things at some time. > >Again you are right, inexperience is the problem or better yet the > way I > >communicate > >may be the bigger problem but I still thought I understood it. Ah, and there lies one of the biggest problems in communicating complex ideas: the whole point of communication is to get other people to understand something. It does not matter how well you understand it, save that this helps you to find ways to express your ideas to others. Indeed, while learning hard topics, I have often found it a useful tactic to try to explain the concepts to an imaginary child - mostly to force myself to restate the concept in clear and simple terms (literally, in terms that an average child would understand). > Anyhow > >thank you for > >taking the time to respond. If you do have a few more minutes could > you at > >least look > >at what I thought I was reading and tell me if at least some of it > makes > >sense, it would be much appreciated. I already commented on your earlier work, but I see you have added more comments. I shall respond to those. > >A model of mind-body is proposed: a potential ideal of > >computational leverage > >>I am proposing that a computer can enhance the mind to such an > extent that > >>it becomes a new mind-body experience Your restatement is clearer. You should use that instead. I also suspect you would find a lot of agreement, at least among those who make extensive use of the Internet, that computers can enhance the mind such that it would not be totally inaccurate to call it "a new mind-body experience". This is an extension of the old concept by vehicle operators, of being so in tune with their machine that they are said to become one with it, or that the machine reacts so quickly and precisely under their control that it is, at least in practical terms, essentially a (removable, and thus temporary) extension of their body. > >Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties of the universe > (such > >as space, time, and number of dimensions) derived from modern > physics > >consistency arguments. > >>With the use of primitive tools, simple observation, and graphing, > a human > >>with no knowledge of existing theories could probably come up with > simple, > >>uncomplicated ideas that may benefit humans that have > >>huge knowledge and expertise. Again your restatement is clearer. I believe that you are on the path to a much clearer document. Perhaps it would work if you collected your thoughts, rewrote the work, then went away from it for a day or two (to clear your short term memory of thoughts associated with it) then reread it, looking for ways to restate things even more clearly. (In this case, any understanding located solely in your short term memory would be lost - but that's a good thing, since it lets you identify many of the confusing points in your wording, and you still understand your thoughts well enough to restate them.) This only works for a few cycles, though, before the understanding filters into your medium and long term memory - and that is when you truly need other people (who, themselves, do not already understand what you are trying to say from having read and reread your words) to review your work. That said - I would disagree with the point you are making here. Yes, it is not statistically impossible for an untrained human being to come up with ideas that are of use to humans with lots of training and experience. In practice, while it does happen from time to time, it is very unlikely, and most of the time when untrained humans think they have ideas that are of use to the trained, they are not in fact of any significant use - to the point that the cost of the time to listen to and comprehend the idea dwarfs any potential benefit to the trained individual. (Trained individuals rarely have lots of time to spare, as their training makes their time valuable. It is not too inaccurate to view their time as a resource, in the same sense as money - at least to the point of making cost-benefit decisions as to where they want to spend their limited time.) Of course, this only applies when the idea is within the field of the trained individual's training. A typical CFO is usually not very well trained in engineering, while a typical CTO is usually not very well trained in finance; the better CFOs and CTOs know to defer to each other when the topic of conversation drifts to the other's specialty. Then again, "trained" is a relative term: CFOs and CTOs both tend to understand both engineering and finance better than a typical 10 year old child (and thus are "trained" in both fields as compared to said child), for example. > >The ideal solution for unlimited intelligence would require a > sparse, high > >dimensional spacetime (unrestricted locality) and a formalized > observer > >mechanism (mobile observer framework based on a superset of inertial > frame > >properties). > >>Therefore the ideal solution is that > >>the human with ideas needs to contact people that can > >>help to explain some "Kook" ideas that someone may have > >>(high dimensional spacetime-being the internet) and use > >>some form of communication such as the extropy chat (observer > framework). Again, your restatement is clearer - but again, I disagree. One of the basic findings of those who have extensively used the Internet to aid their mind, is that the Internet - specifically, its automated resources - are often the *first* resource one should turn to when trying to validate new ideas. If you've thought of it, it often turns out that other people have thought of it before - and since many pre-Internet sources of wisdom have been uploaded to the Internet already, that's 4000+ years of wisdom that are online today even though the Internet has been around for barely 1% of that (and been heavily used for even less time). There are a certain few exceptions, such as thoughts on extremely new technology the likes of which were never conceived of before - but for example, the concept of "one with the machine" probably dates back to as far as there have been fast, reliable machines for people to be one with (and the basic concept actually predates what we would today call "machines": "one with his sword" is something that might have been said of certain mideval knights, or at least certain samurai from the same years, and the concept may be older than that), and many documents about this can be found online. An example of this in action: going to http://www.google.com/ and searching on "one with his car" brings up over a thousand results (which is actually surprisingly low), the first of which - http://www.kriyayoga.com/love_blog/post.php/269 - is a good poetic description of the concept. And so forth. Quite a lot of people on this list would take the existence and use of such things as obvious and granted: almost everyone who is reading this knows of and uses such things. My favorite statement of how basic and fundamental this has become - as has the concept of checking the automated resources (which really do have all the time in the world to give you information, or effectively so given how little strain one person's manual searching puts on these things, as opposed to the significant time a person would spend listening to and answering a query) - is a certain alias someone created for Google: http://www.stopbeingsuchalazyfuck.com/ Note the emotional accusation: by asking people instead of looking things up yourself, you know you're being irresponsible. This is almost never actually the case - the *answerer* may know of this alternate path, but *you* did not. However, you know it now - and you might want to use it a lot, before you try to describe what it's like to use it a lot. There are enough people who really do use it a lot, who will be insulted (or worse) by inaccurate depictions of what it's like to use it a lot (and thus to be one with the Internet). A more detailed version of this advice, as applying specifically to technical topics (rather than the metaphoric topic you're writing about, but close enough to be relevant) is at http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html A quick skim of the rest of your essay seems to follow similar lines. I think I've said enough to set you on the right path - and I've got other things I need to do tonight. From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Nov 16 06:28:47 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:28:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <200511160558.jAG5wke01791@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051116062847.7827.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My favorite bit: it's even gotten into military computers. http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,69573,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_3 I can just imagine Mr. Rumsfield (for those outside the US: our current Defense Secretary) giving Sony's CEO a call and politely asking whether he should cancel all DoD contracts with Sony, immediately and permanently, to ensure the security of his computers. The CEO can try to explain things and calm the customer down, but that the threat would at all seem even potentially justified... --- spike wrote: > > This is a hell of a note. Sony wrote a virus to > stop piracy, now it helps virus writers. > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff%3D/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1. > DTL > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 06:51:11 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:21:11 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <20051116062847.7827.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200511160558.jAG5wke01791@tick.javien.com> <20051116062847.7827.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0511152251v30164eb7p@mail.gmail.com> I love the fact that they are now giving people good solid reasons to get Sony published music through other channels like p2p networks. No one in their right mind would stick a Sony CD into a PC ever again. But I've been avoiding all of their products for years. They have this habit of making truly excellent hardware, then rendering it unusuable for all practical purposes due to the myriad truly draconian "drm" technologies they include. You would *think* they would learn, after recently losing a market they used to own (walkmans) to apple (iPod). I always assumed that a large part of that failure was due to the stupid drm crap in their offerings. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 22752 (http://nanowrimo.org) On 16/11/05, Adrian Tymes wrote: > My favorite bit: it's even gotten into military computers. > > http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,69573,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_3 > > I can just imagine Mr. Rumsfield (for those outside the US: our current > Defense Secretary) giving Sony's CEO a call and politely asking whether > he should cancel all DoD contracts with Sony, immediately and > permanently, to ensure the security of his computers. The CEO can try > to explain things and calm the customer down, but that the threat would > at all seem even potentially justified... > > --- spike wrote: > > > > > This is a hell of a note. Sony wrote a virus to > > stop piracy, now it helps virus writers. > > > > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff%3D/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1. > > DTL > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 07:02:21 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:32:21 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <200511160340.jAG3eme21464@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <200511160340.jAG3eme21464@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0511152302p10b98ba5m@mail.gmail.com> On 16/11/05, spike wrote: > > Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) > > > ... > > On October 13th at 9 minutes to midnight, in a hospice 2 minutes away from > > Alcor in Scottsdale, Arizona, Gregory released his last breath... > > May we all be inspired by his making the arrangements > for cryonic suspension. He will surely be missed by > family, friends and even casual acquaintances. > > spike Speaking as a very casual acquaintance (I only knew him through posts to this list), he'll be missed. His posts were articulate, interesting, and funny. His successful suspension is inspiring though. Too bad we don't have these facilities in Oz. (Hey, you know it'd be great if progress on medical nanotech sped along so that people started being revived in, say 20 years. How annoyed would people be? Science fiction has always given the impression that you become a long range time traveller, going to times so different as to be unknowable, a complete discontinuity. Imagine if you were brought back, and everything was pretty much the same? How ripped off would you feel?) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 22752 (http://nanowrimo.org) From amara at amara.com Wed Nov 16 07:11:48 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:11:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) Message-ID: >Damien Broderick >[in tears] me too. Ciao Hara Ra! Amara From amara at amara.com Wed Nov 16 07:14:15 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:14:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers Message-ID: spike: >This is a hell of a note. Sony wrote a virus to >stop piracy, now it helps virus writers. >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff%3D/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1.DTL Here is a more complete summary of Sony's deeds: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/14/sony_anticustomer_te.html Amara From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 07:29:20 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 02:29:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <002001c5ea60$b24a4920$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511151900.jAFJ0Ae17941@tick.javien.com> <002001c5ea60$b24a4920$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511152329g29203f2bv41a83e764e3015ba@mail.gmail.com> On 11/15/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > From: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in > > France) > > To: ExI chat list > > Message-ID: > > <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > It looks like whenever the name Wal-Mart is uttered, it occasions an > > outpouring of statements so silly as to be childish. > > Well that was certainly true of the superficial remarks you made Rafal. > Because, if you gave the debate a more than cursory look, you might have > realized by now that the economic models we have now are also the models > many will advocate for the future. All of this has a direct bearing on the > way things might be. I noticed your language included such terms as > 'puerile,' 'stupid loser,' and the suggestion of Luddism and ignorance as > well as 'childishness.' Not a very mature assessment I would have thought - > and more importantly - not a scrap of evidence was supplied! ### I do think that saying "money is bad" is a sign of puerility. I remember myself saying these very same words at age 12 but almost immediately after saying it I changed my mind, i.e. I started growing up. I am not in the mood to search for references on the correlation between being a boy (Latin "puer") and having the beliefs I criticize, so feel free to ignore the statements (although, you could look up the references yourself, too, and see what I mean). ------------------------------- > If you want to convince me (and maybe a few others) - then this is the > challenge: Demonstrate (don't just sneer or give me another side-stepping > opinion piece) exactly HOW Wal Mart is more efficient for America than > several thousand smaller stores would be. > . ### When I suggested thinking about Wal-Mart as a big truck, it wasn't just empty rhetoric. Wal-Mart *is* a trucking company, with outlets. And this is why it is possible to concretize thinking about its efficiency: A large semi is more efficient than a dozen vans when it comes to the transport of a large amount of goods from e.g. Minnesota to Florida. This is so not because it has "bargaining power" over the vans, or can physically push them off the road, but because it can fulfill the needs (e.g. having Land of Lakes butter in Florida) of more people at a smaller overall cost in terms of human effort (fewer drivers, less drag, more durability, less gas per pound of freight) - and that amount of effort finds its true measure in the relative prices of Land of Lakes butter delivered by semi or van. I hope you will not insist that I belabor the obvious fact that a hundred semis make the whole country better off than a thousand vans attempting to perform the same task. I don't need to explain that the 900 fewer drivers needed to haul goods do not become unemployed wretches. I do not need to explain that burning hundreds of thousands of gallons of gas less each year is not impoverishing the roughnecks in Louisiana. I assume this is obvious and incontrovertible. Now, a Wal-Mart is to a dozen mom and pops like a semi to a dozen vans - it doesn't run them off the road, it doesn't do "predatory pricing", it simply does things better in certain circumstances (selling large amount of standard goods in locations with large numbers of customers), and makes the competitors useless. And, just like a semi is better for America than a dozen vans, a Wal-Mart is better than a mom-and-pop, whenever lots of customers desire lots of standard goods. --------------------------------- > And, when I say 'efficient' I don't mean in a company/internal sense - all > big companies have a size advantage which leverages their ability to buy and > sell. I mean: For the whole of the US. > > How is Wal-Mart better than the alternatives for America as a whole? > ### No, no, Wal-Mart is not about "leveraging". Wal-Mart is about bigger trucks, about getting volume discounts overseas, about fanatical attention to detail, discipline, and better business sense. And if Wal-Mart can "leverage" a price cut from suppliers, it's good too: almost all of it will be passed on to consumers, and the couple hundred million that winds up in the wallets of Wal-Mart shareholders is a good price to pay for a lower price. BTW, don't think I am uncritical of Wal-Mart and other large companies: Every company dreams about becoming a government when it grows up. There will be a time when Wal-Mart's competitors catch up with its logistics innovations, get the same discounts and engage in mortal price-combat right next door. Chance is, eventually Wal-Mart will turn to the politicians for protection, will buy laws from them to crush the upstarts. Already there are intimations of things to come, with Wal-Mart putting pressure on politicians to enact laws forcing businesses to provide health plans to employees - of course not because Wal-Mart cares about its employees (it doesn't and it shouldn't, it's a business, not a church) but because this would burden some competitors more than Wal-Mart. Once Wal-Mart becomes a government creature, I will be its implacable enemy but until then, I am proud to say: "I am a friend of Wal-Mart" (and every other great capitalist organization) Rafal From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Nov 16 07:39:43 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:39:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] History in the making is so bland... In-Reply-To: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <485E736B-C04B-4098-A47D-36F39B48191B@ceruleansystems.com> On Nov 15, 2005, at 9:06 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > * The "what about radiation exposure" group was out in full force. Also known in the industry as the "Mommies Against Microwaves" contingent. As amusing as they are, they should not be underestimated. Their influence in the more left-wing communities is actually a bit disconcerting and some of it is grotesquely anti-science when it comes down to brass tacks. They have successfully banned RF networking in a few towns in northern California that I will generously describe as strongly sympathetic to New Age hippie causes. Which is great if you believe their claptrap, but a bit annoying if you want to use wireless networking within their jurisdiction. Fortunately, this generally will not fly in Silicon Valley or up on the peninsula as there are *way* too many engineers and geeks living there. The North Bay is an entirely different matter though. J. Andrew Rogers From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 07:43:53 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 02:43:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <20051116015919.36018.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> <20051116015919.36018.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511152343r5f197233n53c0d0f45f3fa9a7@mail.gmail.com> I used to shop in government monopoly grocery stores as a small boy, standing patiently for an hour or so in line to buy bread and milk. I have a very personal, seething hatred for government monopolies, the kind of hatred that comes from direct exposure to communism as a child. Trust me Stuart, if Wal-Mart was anything close to a government monopoly, I would be its vocal enemy. Rafal On 11/15/05, The Avantguardian wrote: > --- Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > > Like "money is bad" (was it Stuart who wrote it?). > > It is purely > > puerile, and so surprising coming from Stuart who is > > otherwise quite > > smart. > > > > Alright fine. You WalMart-o-philes win. All hail > Wal-Mart. Let it supply all goods and services from > shoes and food to medical care and gasoline at the > cheapest most efficient price. Let it dump unlimited > funds into pro-Walmart special interest groups until > they control the government too. Then we will have one > ubermonopoly that runs the government. That would make > it different from the USSR, China, or North Korea how? > > From eugen at leitl.org Wed Nov 16 07:52:04 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:52:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <200511160558.jAG5wke01791@tick.javien.com> References: <002b01c5ea72$18e158c0$0801a8c0@EF02jack> <200511160558.jAG5wke01791@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20051116075204.GQ2249@leitl.org> On Tue, Nov 15, 2005 at 09:58:14PM -0800, spike wrote: > > This is a hell of a note. Sony wrote a virus to > stop piracy, now it helps virus writers. No virus, a DRM rootkit. Classical script kiddie behaviour (lying to its customers until the eagle screams, then releasing buggy patches). I'm quite pleased that all this so nicely backfired on Sony, and has given DRM a bad name in the wider population. > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff%3D/c/a/2005/11/12/BUG0MFN2SU1.DTL -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From deano17uk at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 10:57:45 2005 From: deano17uk at hotmail.com (dean omara) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:57:45 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dialogue Message-ID: hi my names Dean O'Mara and I'm studding Multimedia design at the University of Huddersfield, England. I'm currently working on my dissertation; working title - Cyber Immortality. And i really interested in Extropy and was just wondering if i could set up a Dialogue with anyone? It would be a great help thanks Dean From bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 16 11:19:16 2005 From: bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk (bluesteel_0 at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:19:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dialogue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051116111916.52396.qmail@web26703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hello Dean, As well as the global Extropy list here, you may like to chat with Extropians and other Transhuman activists in the UK. We have groups both virtual and physical (although our monthly meetings are in London). The best place to start would be to join our UK Extropian/Transhumanist Group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extrobritannia Julian (Director UKTA) --- dean omara wrote: > hi > my names Dean O'Mara and I'm studding Multimedia > design at the University of > Huddersfield, England. > > I'm currently working on my dissertation; working > title - Cyber Immortality. > And i really interested in Extropy and was just > wondering if i could set up > a Dialogue with anyone? > It would be a great help > thanks > Dean > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > "Fahrkarte bis zur Endstation!" ___________________________________________________________ WIN ONE OF THREE YAHOO! VESPAS - Enter now! - http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/features/competitions/vespa.html From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:25:57 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:25:57 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511152343r5f197233n53c0d0f45f3fa9a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> <20051116015919.36018.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com> <7641ddc60511152343r5f197233n53c0d0f45f3fa9a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/16/05, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > Trust me Stuart, if Wal-Mart was anything close to a government > monopoly, I would be its vocal enemy. > Wow! Rafal chanting the same mantra as Dick Cheney. 'My favorite store!'. Must be something wrong here somewhere. ;) Obviously there is a torrent of Walmart criticism on the web. Every big organization will have critics pointing out their faults. But Walmart is the biggest. Try http://www.tompaine.com/articles/walmarts_free_market_fallacy.php?dateid=20050423 Wal-Mart's Free Market Fallacy Jonathan Tasini April 21, 2005 ------------------------ In the mythical world of the free market?for which Wal-Mart supposedly serves as a shining example?prices for goods and labor should rise and fall based on the magic of the "invisible hand" of market supply and demand. In the nirvana of the so-called free market, workers can sell themselves for whatever the market can bear. So let me introduce you to a place called China. Wal-Mart?in its never-ending quest to promote its heartland, Arkansan family values?is a willing customer of the Chinese labor system, where people work 12- to 18-hour days, earn meager wages and have no days of rest?all for the honor of laboring inside factories full of chemical toxins and hazardous machines, leading to sickness and death at the highest rates in world history. Wal-Mart says its business with China is just a virtue of the free market. ------------------- Back at home, Wal-Mart's free market mantra stops at the water's edge of the public till. By one estimate, Wal-Mart has pulled in $1.5 billion dollars in taxpayer funded subsidies (see www.walmartwatch.com) . And that's at the low end, because subsidies are sometimes hard to track based on the lack of public reporting requirements. Wal-Mart is happy to cash in on government largess like property tax abatements, infrastructure support, free land and just straight-out cold cash?all of which are the antithesis of "free market" ideology. ---------------------- Truth is, Wal-Mart could not survive in a real free market: It would, for example, have to pay Chinese workers more (which would ruin its low-wage business model) and spurn any offers of government subsidies. Indeed, it's fitting that Wal-Mart, the business model fawned over by free-marketeers, exposes the so-called "free market" as a lie, no more than a crude?albeit effective?marketing phrase. --------------------- BillK From femmechakra at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 15:33:56 2005 From: femmechakra at hotmail.com (Anna Tylor) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:33:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out In-Reply-To: <20051116062153.37874.qmail@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you again for your time, I know that you must be a busy person. I will take your advice and try again >From: Adrian Tymes regarding >I have often found it a >useful tactic to try to explain the concepts to an imaginary child - >mostly to force myself to restate the concept in clear and simple terms >(literally, in terms that an average child would understand). This will be very usefull Thank you again Anna >From: Adrian Tymes >Reply-To: ExI chat list >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re:Just trying to figure it out >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:21:53 -0800 (PST) > >--- Anna Tylor wrote: > > >you are absotuly right, I should have written that this is the first > > time I > > >have ever posted anything. My apologies to everyone. > >No worries. Everyone's a newbie to these things at some time. > > > >Again you are right, inexperience is the problem or better yet the > > way I > > >communicate > > >may be the bigger problem but I still thought I understood it. > >Ah, and there lies one of the biggest problems in communicating >complex ideas: the whole point of communication is to get other people >to understand something. It does not matter how well you understand >it, save that this helps you to find ways to express your ideas to >others. Indeed, while learning hard topics, I have often found it a >useful tactic to try to explain the concepts to an imaginary child - >mostly to force myself to restate the concept in clear and simple terms >(literally, in terms that an average child would understand). > > > Anyhow > > >thank you for > > >taking the time to respond. If you do have a few more minutes could > > you at > > >least look > > >at what I thought I was reading and tell me if at least some of it > > makes > > >sense, it would be much appreciated. > >I already commented on your earlier work, but I see you have added more >comments. I shall respond to those. > > > >A model of mind-body is proposed: a potential ideal of > > >computational leverage > > >>I am proposing that a computer can enhance the mind to such an > > extent that > > >>it becomes a new mind-body experience > >Your restatement is clearer. You should use that instead. > >I also suspect you would find a lot of agreement, at least among those >who make extensive use of the Internet, that computers can enhance the >mind such that it would not be totally inaccurate to call it "a new >mind-body experience". This is an extension of the old concept by >vehicle operators, of being so in tune with their machine that they are >said to become one with it, or that the machine reacts so quickly and >precisely under their control that it is, at least in practical terms, >essentially a (removable, and thus temporary) extension of their body. > > > >Mechanisms that are based upon primitive properties of the universe > > (such > > >as space, time, and number of dimensions) derived from modern > > physics > > >consistency arguments. > > >>With the use of primitive tools, simple observation, and graphing, > > a human > > >>with no knowledge of existing theories could probably come up with > > simple, > > >>uncomplicated ideas that may benefit humans that have > > >>huge knowledge and expertise. > >Again your restatement is clearer. I believe that you are on the path >to a much clearer document. Perhaps it would work if you collected >your thoughts, rewrote the work, then went away from it for a day or >two (to clear your short term memory of thoughts associated with it) >then reread it, looking for ways to restate things even more clearly. >(In this case, any understanding located solely in your short term >memory would be lost - but that's a good thing, since it lets you >identify many of the confusing points in your wording, and you still >understand your thoughts well enough to restate them.) This only works >for a few cycles, though, before the understanding filters into your >medium and long term memory - and that is when you truly need other >people (who, themselves, do not already understand what you are trying >to say from having read and reread your words) to review your work. > >That said - I would disagree with the point you are making here. Yes, >it is not statistically impossible for an untrained human being to >come up with ideas that are of use to humans with lots of training and >experience. In practice, while it does happen from time to time, it is >very unlikely, and most of the time when untrained humans think they >have ideas that are of use to the trained, they are not in fact of any >significant use - to the point that the cost of the time to listen to >and comprehend the idea dwarfs any potential benefit to the trained >individual. (Trained individuals rarely have lots of time to spare, >as their training makes their time valuable. It is not too inaccurate >to view their time as a resource, in the same sense as money - at least >to the point of making cost-benefit decisions as to where they want to >spend their limited time.) > >Of course, this only applies when the idea is within the field of the >trained individual's training. A typical CFO is usually not very well >trained in engineering, while a typical CTO is usually not very well >trained in finance; the better CFOs and CTOs know to defer to each >other when the topic of conversation drifts to the other's specialty. >Then again, "trained" is a relative term: CFOs and CTOs both tend to >understand both engineering and finance better than a typical 10 year >old child (and thus are "trained" in both fields as compared to said >child), for example. > > > >The ideal solution for unlimited intelligence would require a > > sparse, high > > >dimensional spacetime (unrestricted locality) and a formalized > > observer > > >mechanism (mobile observer framework based on a superset of inertial > > frame > > >properties). > > >>Therefore the ideal solution is that > > >>the human with ideas needs to contact people that can > > >>help to explain some "Kook" ideas that someone may have > > >>(high dimensional spacetime-being the internet) and use > > >>some form of communication such as the extropy chat (observer > > framework). > >Again, your restatement is clearer - but again, I disagree. > >One of the basic findings of those who have extensively used the >Internet to aid their mind, is that the Internet - specifically, its >automated resources - are often the *first* resource one should turn to >when trying to validate new ideas. If you've thought of it, it often >turns out that other people have thought of it before - and since many >pre-Internet sources of wisdom have been uploaded to the Internet >already, that's 4000+ years of wisdom that are online today even though >the Internet has been around for barely 1% of that (and been heavily >used for even less time). There are a certain few exceptions, such as >thoughts on extremely new technology the likes of which were never >conceived of before - but for example, the concept of "one with the >machine" probably dates back to as far as there have been fast, >reliable machines for people to be one with (and the basic concept >actually predates what we would today call "machines": "one with his >sword" is something that might have been said of certain mideval >knights, or at least certain samurai from the same years, and the >concept may be older than that), and many documents about this can be >found online. > >An example of this in action: going to http://www.google.com/ and >searching on "one with his car" brings up over a thousand results >(which is actually surprisingly low), the first of which - >http://www.kriyayoga.com/love_blog/post.php/269 - is a good poetic >description of the concept. > >And so forth. Quite a lot of people on this list would take the >existence and use of such things as obvious and granted: almost >everyone who is reading this knows of and uses such things. My >favorite statement of how basic and fundamental this has become - as >has the concept of checking the automated resources (which really do >have all the time in the world to give you information, or effectively >so given how little strain one person's manual searching puts on these >things, as opposed to the significant time a person would spend >listening to and answering a query) - is a certain alias someone >created for Google: http://www.stopbeingsuchalazyfuck.com/ > >Note the emotional accusation: by asking people instead of looking >things up yourself, you know you're being irresponsible. This is >almost never actually the case - the *answerer* may know of this >alternate path, but *you* did not. However, you know it now - and you >might want to use it a lot, before you try to describe what it's like >to use it a lot. There are enough people who really do use it a lot, >who will be insulted (or worse) by inaccurate depictions of what it's >like to use it a lot (and thus to be one with the Internet). > >A more detailed version of this advice, as applying specifically to >technical topics (rather than the metaphoric topic you're writing >about, but close enough to be relevant) is at >http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > >A quick skim of the rest of your essay seems to follow similar lines. >I think I've said enough to set you on the right path - and I've got >other things I need to do tonight. >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft? SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. From jonkc at att.net Wed Nov 16 16:52:21 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:52:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com><20051116015919.36018.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><7641ddc60511152343r5f197233n53c0d0f45f3fa9a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007001c5eace$47815cf0$3b084e0c@MyComputer> Jack Parkinson > No, and it's [benefit] not subjective either! Bullshit! You have 2 job offers, job A offers 20% more pay but it would be a long commute to work each day and you don?t like the head of the company very much, job B offers less pay but you could walk to work and the boss there seems like a very nice man. What to do? > I think it should be done by an analysis of the financial benefit accruing > to each sector of society I think you should have the right to decide for yourself which job gives you more ?benefit? and which job to take, you think a third party, some sort of grotesque Financial Benefit Accruing Board should make the decision for you. > Would these figures be overall better or worse in the hypothetical > scenario that Wal Mart was replaced by a host of smaller operators? > My guess is that smaller operators might well be better. Then why didn?t they do better? You talk about a ?hypothetical scenario? but there is nothing hypothetical about it. Wal-Mart DID compete with mom and pop and the consumers DID vote with their wallets and Wal-Mart DID win; and we didn?t need to worry about shadowy government agencies using dubious economic models and subjective judgments about what ?benefits? society the most economically, artistically, morally and culturally. That is far far too much power to have! Oh and by the way, Wal-Mart was once a mom and pop store too. > taxpayer contributions in the form of government support to support the > company are a drag on efficiency I agree, so eliminate any form of government support of the company if there is any, and there probably is; with government so bloated money seeps out of the treasury to anyone who had their hand out, so stop bailing out the employees too. > I'm not suggesting anything heretical surely? Well, what you?re suggesting is certainly 180 degrees away from the original Extropian principles, but ?heretical? gives your words a grandeur they do not deserve; ?juvenile? would be a little more accurate. John K Clark From sentience at pobox.com Wed Nov 16 17:19:03 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:19:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051115214437.01d22a18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20051115214437.01d22a18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <437B6A07.1070706@pobox.com> "Farewell?" "Ciao?" What's up with that? I believe the correct expression on such occasions is, "See you later." Unless *you're* not signed up for cryonics, in which case "Goodbye" may be very much appropriate, but you're mourning the wrong person. In an odd way, Hara is safer than we are. His suspension was the best ever done at Alcor. He'll wake up after the crisis is over. Mata ne, Hara. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From jonkc at att.net Wed Nov 16 17:21:48 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:21:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com><20051116015919.36018.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><7641ddc60511152343r5f197233n53c0d0f45f3fa9a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009901c5ead2$44eece60$3b084e0c@MyComputer> Well Billk I see you?ve recommended another web page, this one is blubbering about how Wal-Mart is forcing the poor Chinese to work long hours, ignoring the fact that never in human history have more people advanced their standard of living more quickly than what we are observing right now in China. And this idiot wants it stopped! Billk, it?s very nice that you?ve learned how to use a search engine and we?re all very proud of you for that, but the thing is, the last website you recommended was run by certified loon Lyndon Larouche and now you give us this trash. Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency? John K Clark From bret at bonfireproductions.com Wed Nov 16 17:45:19 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:45:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88E01503-D742-4E6A-9B66-079F98586B0A@bonfireproductions.com> Hi Andrea, I never had the pleasure of meeting Hara Ra, but I do have a fond memory from many years ago. Back when you had perhaps three sources of computer entertainment: games you wrote yourself, games you bought in plastic baggies (on audio cassettes) or games you obtained on paper in the likes of Byte magazine. I spent hours as a child keyboarding all of _Hunt the Wumpus_ so that I could marvel at the spelunking adventure, and try to get that elusive Wumpus. Years later working in education/it when we were hit with an unrealistic request, we would refer to the task as a wiley Wumpus. Each of us knew what that meant. I even put, in my list of most favorite games ever, _Hunt the Wumpus_ as my first entry when I compiled the list a few years ago. I am very happy to hear that Hara will be 'going forward', and will thank him one day personally for his influence. Perhaps we can all break bread together some time. If you do put a page up, or have other links to link to in regard to Hara Ra and the Wumpus, please let us know - right now I simply point to the BAF's guide at http://www.wurb.com/if/game/442 And thank you for posting, Bret Kulakovich On Nov 15, 2005, at 1:25 PM, Gregory H Coresun wrote: > Greetings Natasha and Max Moore and all Extropians, > > I've just now been able to get into Gregory's computer and > discovered to my disappointment that no announcement about > Gregory's passing has appeared on your list. > > On October 13th at 9 minutes to midnight, in a hospice 2 minutes > away from Alcor in Scottsdale, Arizona, Gregory released his last > breath. Alcor personnel was instantly present to give him the > necessary medications, we all transferred him into the icebath > standing by his bedside, the thumper was started to circulate the > meds and an icebag was unceremoniously tossed on his beautiful > face. Then they ran out with him to the awaiting truck, where > procedures continued and onto Alcor itself. His was the best > suspension ever performed, partly because of the latest > cryopreservation chemistry and last but not least because I had > airlifted him from his deathbed in the ICU of Dominican Hospital to > Scottsdale Arizona, so he was able to die on location! This success > has given me great spiritual and emotional relief. I managed to get > him what he wanted more than anything: A chance at another life in > the future when they may be able to restore his brain and he might > have a chance of experiencing the fulness of what it means to be > human and explore the possibilities of being transhuman as well. > > In my experience, he is already traveling the stars! After his > considerable energy was released from his body, he has come closer > to me than was ever remotely possible during our life together. > > I grieve to never - in this lifetime - behold his dear face again > or wrap myself around the goodness of his generous belly, or listen > to his quickwitted mind and let myself be steeped and nurtured in > the wisdom of his council. He was my true zen master. > > As some of you may have noticed, his social behavior of avoidance > or dominance and his short fuses were easily displayed. If you > carry any resentment or have left over negative feelings about him, > I invite you to light a candle or a fire and really get into your > hurt and/or angry feelings and generously let it all go up into > flames. We don't need any unnecessary conflicts and disagreeable > feelings amongst one another anymore. > > He is completely dedicated to the awakening of the individual out > of the trance of socialization, whichever trance that happens to > be. 'Examine thyself' and 'Know thy desire', would be the two most > important councils he has left us with. And then Accept. What is > true right now. Be that. In the now, we find ourselves and each > other. No difference. Just all of us wearing so many cloaks of > different colors. Each of our unique neuroses variations on a > theme, which is essentially the same for all of us. The loss of > innocence and the loss of trust. We are, most of us, individually > and collectively lost at least to some essential degree, however > well hidden. > > It was always such a delight when some bright spirit, whatever age > or gender, caught on to the brightness of his being. Once you knew > him and got him and your ego wasn't afraid of him, amazing > conversations could be had. Sparks would fly. Insights in the human > condition or in some scientific problem would be tossed about like > flying darts, for whoever was fast enough to catch them. After one > of his speedy quipps, he would look at you to see if you got it, > like a little kid: "Did you get it? Isn't it funny?" His innocence! > > I adore him with all of my being, into forever, into and through > some very cold temperatures, upwards and forwards into the future, > for better or for worse. We're in this forever, to the best of our > ability. > > One of his (and mine) major motives to come into the future is to > make sure humanity never loses the awareness of WWII. We must > eradicate fascism (e.i. power over others in some and submission by > the many). Within two generations we can be rid of most ills that > have bedeaveled humanity since the beginnings of murder and mayhem > because of some real or perceived scarcity or worse, because of > some right the mighty believe they have over others, whether they > be religious, political or business world leaders (=top dogs). > > In his mind and mine, the struggle for survival can become > obsolete. We still have plenty of resources. We begin by making > sure that humans only beget the children they really want, can > house and feed and educate. Imagine every child growing up > according to his/her own innate curiosity, being lovingly and > respectfully treated like a real human being and not as 'just a > kid'. They will be informed of everything which is happening about > them in language of kindness they can understand. They shall not be > alienated from themselves and each other. When we learn to live > like family, all of us, we will undoubtedly set our hearts and > minds to the task of healing the human family and its precious > habitat. Especially now, since we are in such a precarious state of > balance. I believe we can still turn it around before 2012. But the > time is definitely now. > > I will be glad to receive any writings, musings, reflections on > him. Please email me at andreavdl at lovingtruth.net, or here to > Gregory's email (how about cc to both, thanks) and I will be glad > to put together a memorial website with photographs, his artwork > and other creations. I am also planning to create an article for > the next publication of Cryonics magazine. Deadline for same is the > end of this month! Please email me under subject: Gregory's Memorial. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Andrea van de Loo > Truth~Transparency~Trust > (831) 458-2925 > andreavdl at lovingtruth.net > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ================================= > = Gregory Herald Coresun = > = - was - = > = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = > = harara at sbcglobal.net = > = 831 429 8637 = > ================================= > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From hibbert at mydruthers.com Wed Nov 16 17:50:51 2005 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:50:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] List member blogs Message-ID: <437B717B.4060408@mydruthers.com> > Does Marc Steigler blog anywhere? Nope. If you want an update on his whereabouts, he's spending half-time at home in Arizona, and half-time working on security at HP Labs (and renting my spare bedroom.) Chris -- I think that, for babies, every day is first love in Paris. Every wobbly step is skydiving, every game of hide and seek is Einstein in 1905.--Alison Gopnik (http://edge.org/q2005/q05_9.html#gopnik) Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com Blog: http://pancrit.org From jay.dugger at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:20:51 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:20:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: History in the making is so bland... In-Reply-To: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0511161120h3205a352td436b8ece2bbfaaa@mail.gmail.com> On 11/15/05, Adrian Tymes wrote: [snip] > * On the topic of affordability of hardware, the Google rep said that > they're a member of the $100 laptop initiative at MIT. Last I'd > heard, they were still hemming and hawing about needing to get things > down in price, to a degree that suggested that much development was > still needed. > > If I heard him right, the rep casually mentioned that Mr. > Negroponte's unveiling the prototype tomorrow in Egypt. > This matches Papert's comments yesterday on PRI's "The World" radio show. Now doubt any announcement will show up on /., digg, del.icio.us/popular, etc. So--any suggestion on how to handle the inevitable comments about why this isn't being done for every single child in ? -- Jay Dugger http://www.redcross.org Please donate if you can. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:38:25 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:38:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0511152302p10b98ba5m@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20051115084406.02e9ce48@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <200511160340.jAG3eme21464@tick.javien.com> <710b78fc0511152302p10b98ba5m@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0511161138o626c7c90v4673aef8dbabd25b@mail.gmail.com> [snip] > (Hey, you know it'd be great if progress on medical nanotech sped > along so that people started being revived in, say 20 years. How > annoyed would people be? [snip] I might feel some surprise, but no annoyance. Delight to return to life after cryonic preservation would probably overwhelm all other emotion. My sympathy for Greg's survivors, and my best wishes for his eventual revival. -- Jay Dugger http://del.icio.us/tags/charity Please donate if you can. From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Nov 16 19:41:37 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:41:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: History in the making is so bland... In-Reply-To: <5366105b0511161120h3205a352td436b8ece2bbfaaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051116194137.92571.qmail@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jay Dugger wrote: > So--any suggestion on how to handle the > inevitable comments about why this isn't being done for every single > child in ? If is a foreign country: among the responsibilities of a country's government is to invest in its people, and this is cheap enough that even poor third world countries should be able to do it. So why don't you ask them why they're failing to invest in this manner? (And find out, in many cases, that their own government is often the main reason this isn't being done, wanting to keep its people repressed and its elites wealthy - for the wise-acres, to a far greater degree than any Western government is presently attempting.) If is somewhere else within your nation: same argument, but apply it to the local government. In the case of a different US state, for example, the state government. (One won't usually find deliberate repression, and perhaps this is something that most industrialized countries could afford for their own children. But one might run into other obstacles.) If is your own community...well, at least in my case, that might actually happen - for the small fraction of children who do not have access to personal computers already. (Though it may be debated if we need to go that far, given the computers that are already publically available for these types of cases.) At the very least, local governments around here would be willing to listen if someone (like, say, the person suggesting it) proposed it to them. Your answers may vary depending on where you live. From eugen at leitl.org Wed Nov 16 19:55:14 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:55:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: History in the making is so bland... In-Reply-To: <5366105b0511161120h3205a352td436b8ece2bbfaaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5366105b0511161120h3205a352td436b8ece2bbfaaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051116195514.GC2249@leitl.org> On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 01:20:51PM -0600, Jay Dugger wrote: > This matches Papert's comments yesterday on PRI's "The World" radio > show. Now doubt any announcement will show up on /., digg, > del.icio.us/popular, etc. So--any suggestion on how to handle the > inevitable comments about why this isn't being done for every single > child in ? Because they already have access to dead tree textbooks? Giving unsupervised kids computers is worse than useless: it correlates with poor educational achievement. With a proper curriculum and support from (trained! and motivated!) teachers portable computers can be a wonderful tool. And of course we need educational software which just isn't there. Giving poor students laptop makes sense because it saves on textbooks. I understand some U.S. schools issued their students iBooks for the same reason. (I still don't get why they turned down Joabses free OS X offer. I just hope their second choice was Linux). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From amara at amara.com Wed Nov 16 20:17:56 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:17:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) Message-ID: Eliezer: >"Farewell?" "Ciao?" What's up with that? >I believe the correct expression on such occasions is, "See you later." I'll pass on the 'correct expression' admonishment, but you are right, Eliezer, the it's better not to use words indicating finality. 'Ciao' like 'aloha' means both goodbye and hello, and is usually used in colloquial speech as in "see you later" (a presto). Also in the Venetian dialect means: 'your servant' (servo vostro)). So it seems ok here. Amara From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 21:32:33 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <437B6A07.1070706@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20051116213233.74435.qmail@web60011.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" wrote: > "Farewell?" "Ciao?" What's up with that? > > I believe the correct expression on such occasions > is, "See you later." > Unless *you're* not signed up for cryonics, in > which case "Goodbye" > may be very much appropriate, but you're mourning > the wrong person. > > In an odd way, Hara is safer than we are. His > suspension was the best > ever done at Alcor. He'll wake up after the crisis > is over. Bingo! "See you later" indeed. Terminal illness with a reasonably predictable course is a winning lottery ticket. It allows you to get a top quality suspension,... IF YOU PLAN WELL. Congatulations to Hara. Best, Jeff Davis Although no one can quantify the probability of cryonics working, I estimate it is at least 90% -- and certainly nobody can say it is zero. Sir Arthur C. Clarke --- "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" wrote: > "Farewell?" "Ciao?" What's up with that? > > I believe the correct expression on such occasions > is, "See you later." > Unless *you're* not signed up for cryonics, in > which case "Goodbye" > may be very much appropriate, but you're mourning > the wrong person. > > In an odd way, Hara is safer than we are. His > suspension was the best > ever done at Alcor. He'll wake up after the crisis > is over. > > Mata ne, Hara. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky > http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for > Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From riel at surriel.com Wed Nov 16 22:01:55 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:01:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > So do you consider Walmart's increasing of the number of > > people living below the poverty line to be a win or a loss ? > > Dumb, whoever wrote it. Walmart obviously is not increasing the number > of poor people, it is paying them money, not taking it away from them. > Anybody with even a modicum of economic sense will see it. Like the folks at Berkeley, who quantified some of the disadvantages of Wal-Mart economy: http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/lowwage/walmart.pdf > Wal-Mart is nothing but a glorified trucking business, I'm not arguing with that. What I object to is that Wal-Mart is introducing socialism through the back door, by underpaying its workers so badly that they have to rely on government help to make ends meet. This is a travesty of capitalism. To quote some figures from the Berkeley paper: - The families of Wal-Mart employees in California utilize an estimated 40 percent more in taxpayer-funded health care than the average for families of all large retail employees. - The families of Wal-Mart employees use an estimated 38 percent more in other (non-health care) public assistance programs (such as food stamps, etc) than the average for families of all large retail employees. Now you tell me how increasing the reliance of workers on government assistance is good capitalism. -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From riel at surriel.com Wed Nov 16 22:12:43 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:12:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511152329g29203f2bv41a83e764e3015ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511151900.jAFJ0Ae17941@tick.javien.com> <002001c5ea60$b24a4920$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <7641ddc60511152329g29203f2bv41a83e764e3015ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Once Wal-Mart becomes a government creature, I will be its implacable > enemy Let me cite the Berkeley paper again: "We find that overall, families of California Wal-Mart workers rely heavily on public safety net programs. We estimate the total cost to the public for public assistance to Wal-Mart workers at $86 million a year." "the report estimates that a typical 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,750 a year - about $2,103 per employee" http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/lowwage/walmart.pdf > but until then, I am proud to say: > > "I am a friend of Wal-Mart" With this much government support, how is Wal-Mart not a "government creature" ? -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From riel at surriel.com Wed Nov 16 22:21:36 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:21:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <200511160558.jAG5wke01791@tick.javien.com> References: <200511160558.jAG5wke01791@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, spike wrote: > This is a hell of a note. Sony wrote a virus to stop piracy, ... which, ironically, seems to breach the copyright of the MP3 encoder Lame, which appears to have been included in the root kit without abiding by the license: http://www.dewinter.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=215 Sony's software appears to be "piracy software", not anti-piracy ;) -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 22:52:48 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:52:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511161452u646d9afeie331554fd0fd5437@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/05, Rik van Riel wrote: > On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > > So do you consider Walmart's increasing of the number of > > > people living below the poverty line to be a win or a loss ? > > > > Dumb, whoever wrote it. Walmart obviously is not increasing the number > > of poor people, it is paying them money, not taking it away from them. > > Anybody with even a modicum of economic sense will see it. > > Like the folks at Berkeley, who quantified some of the > disadvantages of Wal-Mart economy: > > http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/lowwage/walmart.pdf ### I don't read propaganda from the Socialist Republic of Berkeley ------------------------------ > > > Wal-Mart is nothing but a glorified trucking business, > > I'm not arguing with that. > > What I object to is that Wal-Mart is introducing socialism > through the back door, by underpaying its workers so badly > that they have to rely on government help to make ends meet. > This is a travesty of capitalism. > > To quote some figures from the Berkeley paper: > - The families of Wal-Mart employees in California utilize > an estimated 40 percent more in taxpayer-funded health > care than the average for families of all large retail > employees. > - The families of Wal-Mart employees use an estimated > 38 percent more in other (non-health care) public assistance > programs (such as food stamps, etc) than the average for > families of all large retail employees. > > Now you tell me how increasing the reliance of workers on > government assistance is good capitalism. ### Sure, providing government assistance is stupid socialism. Using it to boost your bottom line is however good business sense. You see the tension there, right? The meaning of collective action differs from the meaning of private responses to it. A collective action makes it useful and remunerative for individuals to act in a destructive manner. Walmart is not underpaying workers, it simply avails itself of the artificially increased supply of job applicants willing to work for low wages. If the government didn't give out money for nothing, Walmart would be paying a little bit more (it would be also probably taxed less), and job applicants would demand more money, knowing that they won't be getting any from Uncle Sam. In fact, government assistance programs are the cause of low wages. As long as Wal-Mart is not actively influencing the government to provide assistance, they are not the guilty party. It's the same with Social Security - I feel that my being forced to pay for the SS is wrong, and a humongous waste of money but, once I am retired, I won't relinquish any SS payments due me, on moral grounds. That is, if the SS still has money left. The correct response to government stupidity is to oppose government stupidity (i.e. government assistance programs), not to go on bashing honest businessmen. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 23:08:50 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:08:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: <200511151900.jAFJ0Ae17941@tick.javien.com> <002001c5ea60$b24a4920$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <7641ddc60511152329g29203f2bv41a83e764e3015ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511161508o30f544abi34a9101b9d1e9148@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/05, Rik van Riel wrote: > With this much government support, how is Wal-Mart not a > "government creature" ? ### If I cash a Social Security check, it doesn't make me a government creature. I always vote against more spending, and I never lobby for more. Only if I demand support (for myself or others), do I become a vassal of the state. Rafal From dharris234 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 16 23:25:09 2005 From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David Harris) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:25:09 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-transhumanist op-ed: Is the world ready for a superboy - or a dogboy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <437BBFD5.1090306@mindspring.com> The Discovery Institute (http://www.discovery.org/) is in Southern Caliornia and is the institution that brought us the concept of "Intelligent Design". The ACLU, in the Dover, Pennsylvania, school board case, points out that Intelligent Design seems to be a way of avoiding the word "God" in what otherwise looks like Creationism, which has been kept out of schools by court decisions on separation of church and state. The Discovery Institute folks are responsible for the "Wedge strategy" (http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html), a plan to integrate Intelligent Design into science classes and gradually separate popular thinking into a choice between God and materialism/evolution/science. To many religions, that is a needlessly narrow choice. I'm working on an essay suggesting that the border between science and supernatural religions can and should be drawn somewhat differently than current usage. I've been doing the computer work for Darwin Day Celebration (http://DarwinDay.org), very much the opposite of the Discovery Institute, except they have much more money and we have real science on our side. We promote Darwin's birthday ("Darwin Day") as a celebration of science and humanity, much like "Newtonmas" in spirit. - David Harris, Palo Alto, California Neil H. wrote: > The Dallas Morning News has an anti-transhumanist op-ed by a senior > fellow at the Discovery Institute (a conservative Christian think-tank). ... From riel at surriel.com Thu Nov 17 00:29:21 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:29:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: History in the making is so bland... In-Reply-To: <20051116195514.GC2249@leitl.org> References: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5366105b0511161120h3205a352td436b8ece2bbfaaa@mail.gmail.com> <20051116195514.GC2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: > (I still don't get why they turned down Joabses free OS X offer. > I just hope their second choice was Linux). I know some of the people working on software for the $100 laptops, and I am pretty sure that OS X will not run on the (very) limited hardware you can build for that money. And yes, it will be a modified Linux system. -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Nov 17 02:46:41 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:46:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051117024641.43680.qmail@web81609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just to cap this off: Sony's issued a recall of all affected CDs. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69590,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 From dmasten at piratelabs.org Thu Nov 17 02:50:25 2005 From: dmasten at piratelabs.org (David Masten) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:50:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1132195825.3590.68.camel@dmlap> On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 17:01 -0500, Rik van Riel wrote: > Like the folks at Berkeley, who quantified some of the > disadvantages of Wal-Mart economy: > > http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/lowwage/walmart.pdf This "paper" is pure propaganda hidden behind the facade of an academic paper. The first and most egregious mistake is the apparent assumption that if Wal*Mart did not exist, then the employees would be working for better wages and benefits. If we make the opposite (and nearly as bad) assumption that instead all Wal*Mart employees would not be employed at all, then Wal*Mart has been to the benefit of California public assistance programs to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. Dave From riel at surriel.com Thu Nov 17 03:24:15 2005 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:24:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511161452u646d9afeie331554fd0fd5437@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60511161452u646d9afeie331554fd0fd5437@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### Sure, providing government assistance is stupid socialism. Using > it to boost your bottom line is however good business sense. You see > the tension there, right? > The correct response to government stupidity is to oppose government > stupidity (i.e. government assistance programs), Absolutely. This is why everybody should oppose walmarts in their towns - there is no reason why my tax money should be spent subsidizing one of this country's most profitable businesses. -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Thu Nov 17 03:41:05 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:41:05 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <200511161900.jAGJ0Be09359@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <001f01c5eb28$beb1a6e0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Rafal Smigrodzki said: > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > Jack Parkinson wrote" >> If you want to convince me (and maybe a few others) - then this is the >> challenge: Demonstrate (don't just sneer or give me another side-stepping >> opinion piece) exactly HOW Wal Mart is more efficient for America than >> several thousand smaller stores would be. > > ### When I suggested thinking about Wal-Mart as a big truck, it wasn't > just empty rhetoric. Wal-Mart *is* a trucking company, with outlets. > And this is why it is possible to concretize thinking about its > efficiency: A large semi is more efficient than a dozen vans when it > comes to the transport of a large amount of goods from e.g. Minnesota > to Florida. This is so not because it has "bargaining power" over the > vans, or can physically push them off the road, but because it can > fulfill the needs (e.g. having Land of Lakes butter in Florida) of > more people at a smaller overall cost in terms of human effort (fewer > drivers, less drag, more durability, less gas per pound of freight) - > and that amount of effort finds its true measure in the relative > prices of Land of Lakes butter delivered by semi or van. > Once again you have delivered an opinion piece without a shred of evidence. Using your logic I can be sure that elephants are more efficient than dogs, and maybe a big SUV is more efficient than a small car... But you did not answer the question at all. I put it to you (several times) that Wal Mart is a less efficient producer of national wealth - in overall financial terms -than the small business alternatives I proposed. But, you apparently cannot argue this point other than to give me one statement of belief after another. Maybe you are just wrong? > Once Wal-Mart becomes a government creature, I will be its implacable > enemy but until then, I am proud to say: > > "I am a friend of Wal-Mart" > You are indeed a good friend of Wal-Mart but why? This quote via a private email from Mike Lorrey: "This company has, as a corporate policy, an employee handbook that specifically teaches employees how to apply for welfare, medicare, section 8 housing, and other government entitlements, AS IF SUCH THINGS ARE EMPLOYEE BENEFITS. Walmart is thus externalizing its labor costs onto the taxpayer." Wal Mart is directly subsidised to the tune of perhaps US $1.5 billion - it exploits welfare payments as a matter of course to compensate for it's poor recompense of employees - and you call this 'efficient!' Wal-Marts political links and political activities are well documented. If obtaining this level of support is not being 'a government creature' then what is? Jack Parkinson From isthatyoujack at icqmail.com Thu Nov 17 03:58:10 2005 From: isthatyoujack at icqmail.com (Jack Parkinson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:58:10 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in References: <200511161900.jAGJ0Be09359@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <002e01c5eb2b$2150ed40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> > From: "John K Clark" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in >> > Jack Parkinson > >> Would these figures be overall better or worse in the hypothetical >> scenario that Wal Mart was replaced by a host of smaller operators? >> My guess is that smaller operators might well be better. > John said: > Then why didn't they do better? You talk about a "hypothetical scenario" > but > there is nothing hypothetical about it. Wal-Mart DID compete with mom and > pop and the consumers DID vote with their wallets and Wal-Mart DID win; > and > we didn't need to worry about shadowy government agencies using dubious > economic models and subjective judgments about what "benefits" society the > most economically, artistically, morally and culturally. That is far far > too > much power to have! This whole response of yours is one failure after another to answer the question I posed. I don't MIND discussing how Wal Mart got ahead of the pack - but what is relevant here is: Is their business model efficient or not? I am saying here and now it is not. You are giving me a lot of peripheral, diversionary, incidental remarks - like the 'points' below and above) and pointedly failing to address the question. > > Oh and by the way, Wal-Mart was once a mom and pop store too. > >> taxpayer contributions in the form of government support to support the >> company are a drag on efficiency > John said: > I agree, so eliminate any form of government support of the company if > there > is any, and there probably is; with government so bloated money seeps out > of > the treasury to anyone who had their hand out, so stop bailing out the > employees too. You agree? So what you are now saying in effect is that your previous argument holds no water and can be set aside? A simple "Excuse me, I was wrong - I didn't check the facts" would suffice. > Well, what you're suggesting is certainly 180 degrees away from the > original > Extropian principles, but "heretical" gives your words a grandeur they do > not deserve; "juvenile" would be a little more accurate. > John K Clark Really? And I suppose you can explain/justify these remarks as well? Jack Parkinson From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 04:00:32 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:00:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) In-Reply-To: <437B6A07.1070706@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200511170400.jAH40pe10263@tick.javien.com> Well spoken Eliezer. Incidently, he told me that Hara Ra is one name, even tho it has a space in it. I don't see why it couldn't be shortened, as we might say Eli, but he said it was Hara Ra. {8^] spi > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eliezer S. Yudkowsky > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 9:19 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Gregory's Passing (Hara Ra) > > "Farewell?" "Ciao?" What's up with that? > ... > > In an odd way, Hara is safer than we are. His suspension was the best > ever done at Alcor. He'll wake up after the crisis is over. > > Mata ne, Hara. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 04:54:41 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:24:41 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <20051117024641.43680.qmail@web81609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051117024641.43680.qmail@web81609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0511162054v59366c2cp@mail.gmail.com> On 17/11/05, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Just to cap this off: Sony's issued a recall of all affected CDs. > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69590,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > Some people will keep theirs, the software is useful. For instance, people who want to hack Worlds of Warcraft are using it to hide their hacks: http://online.securityfocus.com/brief/34 -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 24517 (http://nanowrimo.org) From outlawpoet at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 05:00:51 2005 From: outlawpoet at gmail.com (justin corwin) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:00:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: [agi] a2i2 news update: still looking for additional talent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ad827f30511162100h651f2576ge099f85409cf3a5@mail.gmail.com> I'm forwarding this news item from my boss to this list because it seems he didn't post it here. It's frustrating, and definitely counter to my expectations that there should be so much difficulty in finding good people who want to join a project such as ours. Personally, the prospect of getting paid to do this kind of work was a major goal of mine since I first became an extropian, and began plotting my grand future plans. Here's his original message, and a link to the current news item on our site: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Peter Voss Date: Nov 11, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: [agi] a2i2 news update: still looking for additional talent To: agi at v2.listbox.com a2i2 is still looking for additional team members. http://adaptiveai.com/news/index.htm Towards Increased Intelligence! Peter Voss Adaptive A.I. Inc ________________________________ -- Justin Corwin outlawpoet at hell.com http://outlawpoet.blogspot.com http://www.adaptiveai.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 05:10:06 2005 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:40:06 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <20051117024641.43680.qmail@web81609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051117024641.43680.qmail@web81609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0511162110r49cf65bam@mail.gmail.com> On 17/11/05, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Just to cap this off: Sony's issued a recall of all affected CDs. > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69590,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > But don't use their removal software, it creates a much worse security problem on your machine. http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20051116/tc_cmp/173603259 -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * NaNoWriMo word count: 24517 (http://nanowrimo.org) From eugen at leitl.org Thu Nov 17 07:47:57 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:47:57 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: History in the making is so bland... In-Reply-To: References: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5366105b0511161120h3205a352td436b8ece2bbfaaa@mail.gmail.com> <20051116195514.GC2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20051117074757.GU2249@leitl.org> On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 07:29:21PM -0500, Rik van Riel wrote: > I know some of the people working on software for the > $100 laptops, and I am pretty sure that OS X will not > run on the (very) limited hardware you can build for > that money. These things can be eventually almost free. Imagine a few mm thick sandwich of OLED Display|Computer|Battery|PV cell, printed in organic/polymer electronics. A low power version could use electronic paper and MRAM logic. > And yes, it will be a modified Linux system. All is good, then. Zero proprietary components. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From alex at ramonsky.com Thu Nov 17 09:00:06 2005 From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:00:06 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dialogue References: Message-ID: <437C4696.7000905@ramonsky.com> Hi Dean, If you want to chat about things cyborg, techy etc, and you have a zany sense of humor, try: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/bavariancyclistssubaqua/ Don't worry we have no bicycles, and are not Bavarian. Best, Alex Ramonsky ****************** dean omara wrote: > hi > my names Dean O'Mara and I'm studding Multimedia design at the > University of Huddersfield, England. > > I'm currently working on my dissertation; working title - Cyber > Immortality. And i really interested in Extropy and was just wondering > if i could set up a Dialogue with anyone? > It would be a great help > thanks > Dean > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:51:57 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:51:57 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: History in the making is so bland... In-Reply-To: <20051117074757.GU2249@leitl.org> References: <20051116050656.93469.qmail@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5366105b0511161120h3205a352td436b8ece2bbfaaa@mail.gmail.com> <20051116195514.GC2249@leitl.org> <20051117074757.GU2249@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 11/17/05, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 07:29:21PM -0500, Rik van Riel wrote: > > > I know some of the people working on software for the > > $100 laptops, and I am pretty sure that OS X will not > > run on the (very) limited hardware you can build for > > that money. > > These things can be eventually almost free. > Imagine a few mm thick sandwich of > OLED Display|Computer|Battery|PV cell, printed > in organic/polymer electronics. > > A low power version could use electronic paper and MRAM > logic. > > > And yes, it will be a modified Linux system. > > All is good, then. Zero proprietary components. > > -- I've got Puppy Linux running on an old P90 MHz laptop with only 73MB of memory and it's wonderful! Made an old machine useable again. It runs off a 60MB bootable cd that loads everything into RAM, but can also be easily installed on hard disk. BillK From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 10:39:13 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil H.) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 02:39:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Article about talk by Leon Kass ("Brave New Biology") Message-ID: Another article, this time regarding a talk by Leon Kass, who was until recently head of the President's Council on Bioethics: *http://tinyurl.com/8cqrg *Needless to say, he isn't much a fan of transhumanism. "Brave New World" and derivations of it definitely seem to be the buzz-phrase of choice when people want to make transhumanist technologies sound a scary as possible. Some quotes: "The bottom of our troubles" is not the biotechnologies themselves, Kass said, but resides in the underlying thought of what he terms "Brave New Biology," his reference to the "charming but disturbing" 1932 dystopian novel "Brave New World." For Kass, that underlying thought has progressive aspirations that can give rise to dangerous consequences: enhancing natural physical talents through steroids, engineering perfect children, unnaturally extending the human lifespan. ... Biotechnology is no longer reserved for its traditional goals of healing illness and relieving suffering, Kass said. "Human nature itself lies on the operating table, ready for alteration . . . for wholesale redesign," he said, citing birth control pills, surrogate wombs, brain implants, and the promotion of "Ritalin for the young, Viagra for the old, Prozac for everyone." With today's biotechnologies, "we can take ourselves to a 'Brave New World' all by ourselves." "Many of us are worried," he said, denying that he fears the unknown or is ignorant of science. "We can see all too clearly where the train is headed and we do not like the destination." What is most troubling to Kass is "runaway" biotechnology's transformation of the meaning of humanity, a threat to human dignity that society is slow to recognize. The "Brave New Biology" has become a reductive science that treats a human as a natural resource - an organ, a fertilized egg - rather than as a soul with dignity, he said. Science explains how the human body works and how to make it work better, but does not address what a human should be. Science is a wonderful thing, Kass said. "But wisdom ain't what it's about." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at att.net Thu Nov 17 15:45:06 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:45:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com><000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer><7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60511161452u646d9afeie331554fd0fd5437@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c5eb8d$e935cb20$7f0a4e0c@MyComputer> Jack Parkinson > Is their [Wal-Mart's] business model efficient or not? The experiment to answer this question has been made under real world conditions and the results are in and they are unambiguous. Yes, we can now say with a certainty equal to anything in science that Wal-Mart is more efficient than any competitor they have met up to now. You claim to have ideas that are even more efficient than Wal-Mart, well that's marvelous; but don't just yak about it on the Extropian list, prove your ideas are correct by starting up a chain of Parkinson department stores (Park-Mart) and push Wal-Mart into bankruptcy and become the richest man in the world. > Really? Yes really. John K Clark From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:48:59 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:48:59 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in In-Reply-To: <002e01c5eb2b$2150ed40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0Be09359@tick.javien.com> <002e01c5eb2b$2150ed40$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511170748x1105ee38k459730ecd9766c53@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > > Is their business model efficient or not? I am saying here and now it is > not. ### Jack, acknowledg the simple fact - price is the measure of efficiency. Learn the basics of economy before you start arguing. Rafal From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:02:18 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:02:18 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: [agi] a2i2 news update: still looking for additional talent In-Reply-To: <3ad827f30511162100h651f2576ge099f85409cf3a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <3ad827f30511162100h651f2576ge099f85409cf3a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/05, justin corwin wrote: > > I'm forwarding this news item from my boss to this list because it > seems he didn't post it here. > > It's frustrating, and definitely counter to my expectations that there > should be so much difficulty in finding good people who want to join a > project such as ours. Personally, the prospect of getting paid to do > this kind of work was a major goal of mine since I first became an > extropian, and began plotting my grand future plans. > Getting good people to do *anything* is an uphill struggle. In general, you either offer them large amounts of money and/or something interesting - usually both. Good people who are true 'self starters' end up millionaires very rapidly - they are truly rare. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:42:42 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:42:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60511161452u646d9afeie331554fd0fd5437@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511170842g356083a6h788a51cfac1cf75d@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/05, Rik van Riel wrote: > > This is why everybody should oppose walmarts in their > towns - there is no reason why my tax money should be > spent subsidizing one of this country's most profitable > businesses. > ### No, it's like cutting off your leg to treat nail fungus. Treat the disease, subsidies, not remove the affected organ, that is retail trade. Want to stop subsidies ending up in my pocket (I am a Wal-mart shareholder, just like millions of other affluent Americans), kill subsidies, not me. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:47:45 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:47:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <001f01c5eb28$beb1a6e0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0Be09359@tick.javien.com> <001f01c5eb28$beb1a6e0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511170847ube47156y741d3ca9fc30aaf9@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/05, Jack Parkinson wrote: > Rafal Smigrodzki said: > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) > > > Jack Parkinson wrote" > >> If you want to convince me (and maybe a few others) - then this is the > >> challenge: Demonstrate (don't just sneer or give me another side-stepping > >> opinion piece) exactly HOW Wal Mart is more efficient for America than > >> several thousand smaller stores would be. > > > > ### When I suggested thinking about Wal-Mart as a big truck, it wasn't > > just empty rhetoric. Wal-Mart *is* a trucking company, with outlets. > > And this is why it is possible to concretize thinking about its > > efficiency: A large semi is more efficient than a dozen vans when it > > comes to the transport of a large amount of goods from e.g. Minnesota > > to Florida. This is so not because it has "bargaining power" over the > > vans, or can physically push them off the road, but because it can > > fulfill the needs (e.g. having Land of Lakes butter in Florida) of > > more people at a smaller overall cost in terms of human effort (fewer > > drivers, less drag, more durability, less gas per pound of freight) - > > and that amount of effort finds its true measure in the relative > > prices of Land of Lakes butter delivered by semi or van. > > > Once again you have delivered an opinion piece without a shred of evidence. > Using your logic I can be sure that elephants are more efficient than dogs, > and maybe a big SUV is more efficient than a small car... > But you did not answer the question at all. ### If neither plain language, nor price analysis, nor analogies are sufficient for you to understand the economist's meaning of "efficiency", I won't be able to help you. Gee, you are playing dumb - WTF do you mention SUV's, for god's sake! You don't understand the way a big truck is more efficient than a dozen vans? Really? Let me ask you an IQ question: Is the relationship of truck vs. van the same as the relationship of SUV vs. small car, in the context of freight delivery? Are you really incapable of understanding, or just playing? -------------------------------- > > I put it to you (several times) that Wal Mart is a less efficient producer > of national wealth - in overall financial terms -than the small business > alternatives I proposed. But, you apparently cannot argue this point other > than to give me one statement of belief after another. > > Maybe you are just wrong? > ### No, it's you who are ignorant of basic economics. In a competitive economy, price is the measure of efficiency, period. Just learn this simple fact. -------------------------------- > This quote via a private email from Mike Lorrey: "This company has, as a > corporate policy, an employee handbook that specifically teaches employees > how to apply for welfare, medicare, > section 8 housing, and other government entitlements, AS IF SUCH THINGS ARE > EMPLOYEE BENEFITS. Walmart is thus externalizing its labor costs onto the > taxpayer." > > Wal Mart is directly subsidised to the tune of perhaps US $1.5 billion - it > exploits welfare payments as a matter of course to compensate for it's poor > recompense of employees - and you call this 'efficient!' > Wal-Marts political links and political activities are well documented. If > obtaining this level of support is not being 'a government creature' then > what is? > ### Call your senator and congressman, if you have a problem with how they spend your money. Walmart is acting under the legal regime not of it's own making - a regime built by economical ignoramuses. If you give out money for nothing, expect somebody will pick it up. Rafal From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 17 17:01:12 2005 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:01:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511170847ube47156y741d3ca9fc30aaf9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0Be09359@tick.javien.com> <001f01c5eb28$beb1a6e0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <7641ddc60511170847ube47156y741d3ca9fc30aaf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:47:45 -0500, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### No, it's you who are ignorant of basic economics. In a competitive > economy, price is the measure of efficiency, period. Just learn this > simple fact. Where do you get that idea, Rafal? I assume you are referring here to the retail price of Walmart goods. An inefficient company can sell goods below cost and by your standard look "efficient" even while it's filing for bankruptcy. From jonkc at att.net Thu Nov 17 17:17:28 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:17:28 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com><000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer><7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60511161452u646d9afeie331554fd0fd5437@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <014701c5eb9a$ec8865a0$7f0a4e0c@MyComputer> Jack Parkinson > Using your logic I can be sure that elephants are more efficient than dogs No, but in today's environment you can be absolutely positively 100% certain that elephants are more efficient than mastodons. There was a fellow by the name of Darwin who figured out how that works. John K Clark From jonkc at att.net Thu Nov 17 18:02:05 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:02:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com><000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer><7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <019401c5eba1$09f6fa10$7f0a4e0c@MyComputer> "Rik van Riel" > What I object to is that Wal-Mart is introducing socialism > through the back door, by underpaying its workers so badly > that they have to rely on government help to make ends meet. I object to that too, the solution is to stop the government help. Employers always try to get the cheapest employees they can and employees always try to get the best paying jobs they can, complaining about that fact of life is like complaining about gravity. The reason Wal-Mart employees (and the employees of their competitors) don't make a lot of money is that pool of people with their intelligence and skills is large and the number of jobs they would be competent in is not so large. In general if a worker is only worth 5$ an hour to his employer that employer he will never pay him more than that unless he is running a charity; and if there is a law that says he MUST pay 6$ an hour then he will simply hire nobody. John K Clark From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Nov 17 18:11:40 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (M.B. Baumeister) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:11:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sony messing up computers In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0511162110r49cf65bam@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051117024641.43680.qmail@web81609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0511162110r49cf65bam@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48979.72.236.103.189.1132251100.squirrel@main.nc.us> > > But don't use their removal software, it creates a much worse security > problem on your machine. > http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20051116/tc_cmp/173603259 > > Isn't there a law against messing with DRM software: removing/disabling it is illegal? That would go for the anti-virus folks and M$oft as well as us customers. :) What a delightful nest of worms. Regards, MB From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 18:29:01 2005 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:29:01 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: References: <200511161900.jAGJ0Be09359@tick.javien.com> <001f01c5eb28$beb1a6e0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <7641ddc60511170847ube47156y741d3ca9fc30aaf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60511171029o405d966cr4dbdca656c099f44@mail.gmail.com> On 11/17/05, gts wrote: > On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:47:45 -0500, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > > ### No, it's you who are ignorant of basic economics. In a competitive > > economy, price is the measure of efficiency, period. Just learn this > > simple fact. > > Where do you get that idea, Rafal? ### Econ 101. ----------------------- I assume you are referring here to the > retail price of Walmart goods. > > An inefficient company can sell goods below cost and by your standard look > "efficient" even while it's filing for bankruptcy. > ### Well, you just illustrated my point - inefficient companies trying to sell cheap go bankrupt pronto, which means that when you look at the prices (and of course, profits) of surviving companies, you get a true measure of their efficiency. Of course, for brief periods of time you can send false pricing signals (e.g. on your first day of business sale) but Wal-mart has been around long enough to be sure its prices and profits are a proof of efficiency. Since at Wal-Mart prices are low and profits high, it means that it is a very efficient company. Rafal From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Nov 17 19:43:02 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:43:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Re: Bush says critics distort history Message-ID: <437CDD46.4090400@mindspring.com> [Forwarding comments from John Forester, son of C.S. Forester. -Terry] I have listened to excerpts of Bush's speeches, sometimes to whole speeches, and read excerpts, and the experience has led me to stronger recognition of the classic saying that patriotism is the final refuge of the scoundrel. Well, I have also read Imperial Hubris, and The Assassins' Gate, and I read two political magazines and a quarterly that frequently covers world events in detail; I suppose that what I have read in those has predisposed me to my judgement. But, on the whole, all the different items fit together in a consistent picture. In my opinion, were I in Bush's position (which I cannot, not having been born in the USA), I would accept responsibility for the decision to invade Iraq, for the errors that led to that decision, and to the errors in planning that have produced results far different from my expectation, and then do my utmost to work out a reasonable plan for fixing the problem that the nation, and the world, now faces. Bush refuses to take this course, insisting that we all accept that everything that he has done has been perfect and that all that we should do is to "stay the course", meaning to continue to carry out the plan (more nearly lack of plan) that has not worked in the expectation that it will work. I hark back to the account, some years ago, by one of his professors at Yale, stating that Bush always tried to escape responsibility for his errors and omissions. Same damned excuse, but now for the world-wide scale of problems Bush's attitude makes it very difficult for the Democrats to work out a better plan for recovery from this problem. As it is, they seem to be unable to get beyond a desire to get our troops out, as the contrast to Bush's insistence that the only patriotic act is to keep them in. In a parliamentary system, there might well have arisen a government of national unity devoted to working out the problem in the best possible way. This doesn't occur under the American Constitutional system. As long as Bush maintains control of the Republicans, that type of solution must wait until at least the next elections; it is possible that either Democrats take over, or that some Republicans opposed to Bush get elected. For an earlier attempt at solution we must hope for defection by a considerable portion of the Republicans. John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia/Secret War in Laos veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Nov 17 19:44:06 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:44:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) New entries for SKEPTIC Bibliography (creationism) Message-ID: <437CDD86.9050202@mindspring.com> http://www.csicop.org/bib/694 ????????????????????????????? The Evolution Hoax Exposed A. N. Field 1971, Tan; 104p. (Original: Why Colleges Breed Communists, 1941) creationism:defense, creationism:history An old (1941) creationist book that is interesting primarily because it gives a British rather than US-based anti-evolutionary view, and because it illustrates how little the "debate" between creationists and scientists have changed. Field gives a little of everything: selected scientific quotations against evolution, accusations of fraud, proofs that evolution is nothing but anti- Christian ideology, etc. etc. An interesting historical document. http://www.csicop.org/bib/695 ????????????????????????????? By Design: Science and the Search for God Larry Witham http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/byde/bydep.html 2003, Encounter; vii+248p. creationism:defense, religion:defense Witham, a journalist, argues that science and religion are coming closer together. This is happening, apprently, because scientists in many fields are finding suggestions of divine design in the universe: in cosmology, the complexity and evolution of life, explorations of the mind and brain, and attempts to explain human spiritual life. Witham focuses on two main ways religious scientists and theologians have been supporting intuitions of design. One is the softer, more liberal approach, which is characterized by institutions such as the Templeton Foundation that try and make room for religion in science by promoting spirit- friendly interpretations of science. The other is the harder-edged approach of intelligent design proponents, who demand a revolution in science by proposing to overturn Darwinian explanations. Witham's characterization of the current state of science is inaccurate at best; the intellectual currents he describes remain marginal to science. Nevertheless, bringing science and religion together in dialogue is an attractive enterprise now, finding much popular and wider cultural support. Witham's book is a valuable survey of the self- perception of religious scientists and theologians who believe they are making progress. http://www.csicop.org/bib/696 ????????????????????????????? The Wedge Of Truth: Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism Phillip E. Johnson http://ivpress.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=2395 2000, InterVarsity; 192p. creationism:defense, religion:defense Another Phillip Johnson book on intelligent design and the evils of naturalism. It includes some clear and valuable discussions of the main preoccupations of intelligent design: the nature of mind and of information as much as biological evolution. Johnson places intelligent design in an explicity religious context, presenting it as a device to destroy naturalism and its pernicious influence in intellectual life. This, also, helps make sense of intelligent design by clarifying the broader concerns that drive the intelligent design movement. So, even if it is scientifically just about worthless, this is a valuable book that skeptics can learn a lot from. http://www.csicop.org/bib/697 ????????????????????????????? Darwin's Proof: The Triumph of Religion over Science Cornelius G. Hunter http://www.brazospress.com/ 2003, Brazos; 168p. creationism:defense, religion:defense An interesting book that falls in between the intelligent design and straight-creationist genres of anti-evolutionary literature. Hunter presents what he thinks are potent scientific arguments against evolution; many of these are variations on typical anti-evolutionary themes, though he emphasizes the complexity of molecular biology, in keeping with the more recent intelligent design style. More interesting are Hunter's excursions into philosophical and theological reasons to oppose evolution and support creation, including the parts where he accuses evolutionists of strongly relying on bad theological arguments to support evolution. Hunter may be partially correct: popular arguments for evolution do rely too much on intuitions of "bad design" in order to bring creationism into question. Still, that is hardly a fatal flaw in evolutionary science. http://www.csicop.org/bib/698 ????????????????????????????? Strange Creations: Aberrant Ideas of Human Origins from Ancient Astronauts to Aquatic Apes Donna Koss http://feralhouse.com/titles/kulchur/strange_creations.php 2001, Feral House; x+253p., illustrated crankery, creationism, creationism:history, newage, religion, UFO A fascinating book, covering strange views of human origins. Creationism and allied beliefs is one of its main themes, but Kossy also brings in ideas from the UFO subculture about alien interventions at the dawn of humanity, notions of human degeneration over time, racist theories of origins, eugenics, and the Urantia book. She even discusses the Elaine Morgan's "aquatic ape" theory as a scientifically weak but popular view. Kossy's approach is skeptical but lighthanded; the book is more an entertaining guided tour through various forms of weirdness than a quasi-academic analysis. Even seasoned skeptics will likely come across some new notions, and the less expert can get a good introduction of the subjects with useful pointers to more in-depth material. [ All reviewed by Taner Edis, bibliographer at csicop.org ] Visit the full bibliography at http://www.csicop.org/bibliography/ Please consider submitting an entry yourself. Taner Edis, SKEPTIC bibliographer -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia/Secret War in Laos veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From dirk.bruere at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 20:20:42 2005 From: dirk.bruere at gmail.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:20:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Re: Bush says critics distort history In-Reply-To: <437CDD46.4090400@mindspring.com> References: <437CDD46.4090400@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/05, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > > [Forwarding comments from John Forester, son of C.S. Forester. -Terry] > > > In my opinion, were I in Bush's position (which I cannot, not having > been born in the USA), I would accept responsibility for the decision > to invade Iraq, for the errors that led to that decision, and to the > errors in planning that have produced results far different from my > expectation, and then do my utmost to work out a reasonable plan for > fixing the problem that the nation, and the world, now faces. Bush > refuses to take this course, insisting that we all accept that > everything that he has done has been perfect and that all that we > should do is to "stay the course", meaning to continue to carry out > the plan (more nearly lack of plan) that has not worked in the > expectation that it will work. > > I hark back to the account, some years ago, by one of his professors > at Yale, stating that Bush always tried to escape responsibility for > his errors and omissions. Same damned excuse, but now for the > world-wide scale of problems > > Bush's attitude makes it very difficult for the Democrats to work out > a better plan for recovery from this problem. As it is, they seem to > be unable to get beyond a desire to get our troops out, as the > contrast to Bush's insistence that the only patriotic act is to keep > The obvious answer is to withdraw the troops and replace them with a pan-Arab UN force. Return the problem to its rightful owners. Dirk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From extropy at unreasonable.com Thu Nov 17 20:32:53 2005 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:32:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60511171029o405d966cr4dbdca656c099f44@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200511161900.jAGJ0Be09359@tick.javien.com> <001f01c5eb28$beb1a6e0$0201a8c0@JPAcer> <7641ddc60511170847ube47156y741d3ca9fc30aaf9@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60511171029o405d966cr4dbdca656c099f44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051117151834.074cbee8@unreasonable.com> Rafal wrote: >Since at Wal-Mart prices are low and profits high, it means that it is >a very efficient company. Their corporate management at work -- starting senior staff meetings at 7 AM, constantly measuring, experimenting, honing -- looks like they took lessons from how Andy Grove ran Intel. I suspect that part of what underlies Wal-Mart bashing is a lack of understanding of the functions of and necessity for middlemen. Time and again throughout history, the people and those in power have seen rich, successful middlemen (esp. the Jews and Chinese), resented their power and wealth, and saw them as fat ticks adding nothing of value. And every time they "cut out the middleman," the economy plummeted. Thomas Sowell has a good treatment of the subject, as usual. -- David. From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Nov 17 20:55:07 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:55:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <014701c5eb9a$ec8865a0$7f0a4e0c@MyComputer> References: <20051113122527.3108.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com> <000f01c5e894$0df71e70$32074e0c@MyComputer> <7641ddc60511142253s3c7ba35h58a9d8f388985032@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60511161452u646d9afeie331554fd0fd5437@mail.gmail.com> <014701c5eb9a$ec8865a0$7f0a4e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <22360fa10511171255i2d02c5a6gca46b146f36f3c45@mail.gmail.com> On 11/17/05, John K Clark wrote: > Jack Parkinson > > > Using your logic I can be sure that elephants are more efficient than dogs > > No, but in today's environment you can be absolutely positively 100% certain > that elephants are more efficient than mastodons. There was a fellow by the > name of Darwin who figured out how that works. Interesting that misunderstanding of evolution accompanies misunderstanding of economics. Evolution does not say that today's organisms are necessarily more efficient than those that went extinct. I won't launch an (attempted) explanation at this time, since there's already enough going on. - Jef From sentience at pobox.com Thu Nov 17 21:10:54 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:10:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seven cents an hour? (was: Riots in France) In-Reply-To: <22360fa10511171255i2d02c5a6gca46b146f36f3c45@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051113122527.3108.q