[extropy-chat] against ID

[Eugen Leitl]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:58:46PM -0700, Brent Allsop wrote:

> I think qualia or phenomenal properties of nature which I think the brain
> uses to represent conscious information will be discovered some time during

We're already seeing and measuring qualia all the time. It's an emergent
property of the physical system between our ears. It is an entirely
unremarkable property, unless it introspects.

> the next 10 years.  This will eventually lead to what will be called
> "effing" or communication of such qualities between minds.  (as in oh THAT'S

Are you familiar with open-brain electrostimulation? Why do you think
does common juice make all these qualia sing and dance?

> what salt tastes like.)  I predict this will turn out to be by far the most

Sure you can build translators for individual internal representation,
and beam those across the network. How do qualia factor in? We already
know how to do that, what is missing is the technology to instrument
your noggin at sufficient detail and the numeric crunch to sort through
all the signals in realtime. We might get such technology in the course
of the next 20-30 years.

> significant scientific discovery to date.  And I predict people that believe
> phenomenal properties don't exist will be kicking themselves for centuries
> after this for being so stupid and missing what should be so blatantly
> obvious.

If you'd give me a measurement procedure for qualia not requiring
a person you'd have a point.
 
> If you are so sure that phenomenal qualities will be nothing more than what
> phlogiston was - would you care to place a wager that this discovery of
> qualia will not take place some time in the next 10 years?

Yes. Assuming, your qualia is everybody's qualia. (I'm having trouble
to understand, because qualia means absolutely nothing to me. Just as
soul, vis vitalis, or phlogiston).
 
> Sorry, I don't understand German.  I tried an auto translator but it still
> didn't make much sense.  I wish I knew what you were saying here.

It's a verbatim (mangled) quote from a letter Woehler wrote to Berzelius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Woehler
...
Wöhler is regarded as a pioneer in organic chemistry as a result of his (accidental) synthesizing urea in the Wöhler synthesis in 1828. Until 1828, it was believed that organic substances could only be formed under the influence of the vital force in the bodies of animals and plants. Wöhler proved by the artificial preparation of urea from inorganic materials that this view was false. Urea synthesis was integral for biochemistry because it showed that a compound known to be produced only by biological organisms could be produced in a laboratory, under controlled conditions, from inanimate matter. This in vitro synthesis of organic matter disproved the common theory (vitalism) about the vis vitalis, a transcendent "life force" needed for producing organic compounds. 
...

 
> > Allright, just remove consciousness, and feel the simulation with zombies.
> > Torture them all you will, they won't feel a thing.
> 
> Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about when I say they can simulate it
> without the immoral suffering of phenomenal suffering.  Again, since we do

Sorry, there's no way to way to remove the suffering from
an accurate model. Zombies are strictly ficticious.

> experience phenomenal suffering - this is evidence against us being a
> simulation since they would just do it without qualia.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
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