[extropy-chat] Qualia Bet.

[Brent Allsop]

John Clark,

> If qualia is non causal that would explain why the Turing Test can't
> detect it,

Absolutely not.  I never said anything remotely close to this.  Phenomenal
properties are most definitely causal.  It's just that the causal part, is
the only part that traditional cause and effect observation can detect.
Beyond its causal properties - we are blind to the ineffable phenomenal
properties or what they are phenomenally "like".

The red strawberry is not like the green leaves.  This phenomenal difference
is what enables us to be aware of the situation and pick the strawberry from
amongst the leaves.  All this is a very causal effect in the natural world.
We will never understand how this awareness works innless we fully
understand the differences between red and green phenomenal properties in
the brain.

> Do you think I'm conscious?

This is the philosophical problem of other minds.  I guess that you are, for
consistency and simplicity's sake - but beyond that I don't YET know for
sure.  But once we discover what phenomenal properties are and start sharing
them - we will know for sure whether or not others are conscious like we
are.

Surely, some people will use different phenomenal properties to represent
different information.  This is proved by things like color blindness.  When
we can eff and/or repair the color blind person's visual perception system -
they will say: "oh THAT is what it is like to experience those particular
colors that I never experienced before due to my being color blind."  We
will finally know that they were conscious and how their consciousness was
different than our own.  We will have solved the problem of other minds in
this way and be able to answer your question for sure.

> But how will you know if your theory is correct, how do you test it?

You guys must not be listing to what I am saying either that or be very
unclear on the concept of what I am trying to say.  Why do you keep saying
this?  The proof is in the effing!  The ultimate absolute proof will
eventually come when we join our minds together into grand unified conscious
worlds (spirit worlds if you will) made of shared phenomenal properties.

Right now, when I hug my wife, I am only aware of half of the phenomenal
sensations.  I only know what it is "like" for me.  My prediction is that
once we can eff, and so on, we will eventually be able to engineer ways to
join our minds together (similare to the way our left and right hemisphere
are joined) so that in addition to being aware of what I am feeling, I will
also be aware of what she is feeling.  Why is this such a difficult thing
for people to grasp?  If anything like this happens, this will prove that
qualia exist since we will be engineering systems that use qualia to
represent information like our brain does and manipulating the qualia in our
own minds.  After reading this, how can someone ask: "how do you test it?"


> I believe you could make a stronger case that computers could be conscious
> but they can never be intelligent rather than the other way round.

Part of my prediction is that people like you will admit that statements
like this were a stupid thing to say.  Especially once you experience your
first effed quale that you have never experienced before.


Brent Allsop