[extropy-chat] Qualia Bet.

[Eugen Leitl]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 12:34:14PM -0500, gts wrote:

> But I doubt flies have an ability to reflect consciously on themselves and  

Another one of those noise words you use so effortlessly.
What is consciousness? It doesn't resolve to anything
well-defined over here. 

> their experiences. I doubt flies ask themselves "What is that I saw?"  
> Their supposed mental processes and models are just blind instinct,  

Why "blind instinct"? These flies can see just fine. They can react.
They can learn. 

So are you saying that flies can or cannot distinguish photons
by wavelength?

> probably simple rules that could in principle be programmed into a  
> microchip.

In principle, *you* could be programmed into a microchip.

Except that it wouldn't be a chip, and it would be pretty macro.
Even the lowly fly has more crunch than your average Blue Gene box.
Never, ever understimate the intelligence of a fly.
 
> If I'm right then how is a fly different in any important way from a  
> camera?

If I'm right then how are you different from in any important way
from a fly? The complexity delta is about the same, after all.
 
> If there is no real difference then why not say all matter is aware,  
> though not necessarily self-aware? i.e, that pan-psychism is true? It is  
> then a simple step to understanding more advanced awareness and  
> self-awareness. Self-awareness would be a case of aware matter becoming  
> aware of itself. No need for the dualistic ghost in the machine.
> 
> >I must admit that I have a hard time even keeping a placeholder in my
> >mind for the concept of qualia.

He's not alone here, you know.
 
> Hold a piece of red paper in front of your eyes. Close your eyes, then  
> open them. The difference in your experience upon opening your eyes is the  
> red quale.

So it takes some 100 ms of processing time of a physical system labelled
"Jeff".

That's a quite awful way to start defining a measurement.

So, again, what's the lowest complexity level of a system that can't 
<fnord>quale</fnord> for sure?

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
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