Spirits (was RE: [extropy-chat] Qualia Bet.)

[gts]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:06:47 -0500, The Avantguardian  
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am simply suggesting that there are personality
> differences between individuals that cannot be
> explained simply by genetic or environmental
> differences. I used twins that live together to
> control for genetics and environment. Dominance was
> just an example of one such personality trait. There
> are many more that differ between identical twins. To
> me this demonstrates (albeit in an anecdotal fashion
> as I have only ever known 3 pairs of identical twins)
> the existense of qualia. Two twins, raised in the same
> environment, can recieve the same stimulus yet have
> two different experiences.

Well, their stimuli and experiences and qualia won't be *exactly* alike  
even if raised in the same household. But I think I agree... I thought you  
were suggesting the difference must be due to something other than  
genetics or experience.

>> The pan-vitalism you described to me in the qualia thread is not elan
>> vital. In fact I wonder why you consider it vitalism.
>
> Well it's mostly just semantics. I don't necessarily
> believe in elan vital per-se....

Okay, yes it does look like semantics. When I think of elan vital or  
vitalism, I think of something mystical without which evolution could not  
have proceeded as it did.  But I don't think that is what you mean by it,  
even if as you say...

> a key point that you seem to miss is
> that I am proposing that "life began EVERYWHERE at an
> earlier time because back then the entire universe had
> certain chemical and thermodynamic properties that are
> now only found in living organisms"

...which still does not entail anything I would call vitalism.

> In regards to the
> relationship of classical vitalism to my pan-vitalism
> hypothesis, there really isn't one at least not
> directly. It was mostly just the language I chose to
> use. I could have just as easily called it
> panbiogenesis which would probably have been more
> accurate but I was inspired by your frequent use of
> "pan-psychism" to call it that.

I'm glad to have inspired you. :) My use of the term "pan-psychism" is  
probably misunderstood here by people like Eugen for reasons similar to  
those that caused me to misunderstand your meaning of pan-vitalism. I  
agree that your idea is better described as panbiogenesis.

-gts