[extropy-chat] The Hidden Luddite was Re: peak oil debate

[Adrian Tymes]

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> > --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> >> Business has no way of legally initiating force against anyone.
> >> Governments do.  This is the crucial and often overlooked
> difference
> >> in a nutshell.
> >
> > Ah, but is it force to lie to someone and sell them poison when
> they
> > think they are purchasing food?
> 
> Yes. it is fraud.  Which is illegal.  Again. business has no mans of 
> *legally* initiating force.  That is the sole province of  
> government.  That is why it behooves us to carefully delimit
> government.

Businesses, and other entities, can still initiate force even if it's
illegal.  The question then becomes one of degree of enforcement.

Can the government prosecute businesses for threatening to initiate
force, in lieu of evidence of actual force?  Some businesses get really
good at hiding up any actual incidents.  "Jimmy, ah, sleeps with da
fishes.  Yeah.  Really unfortunate accident he had.  We's selling
insurance against accidents."

What about prohibiting businesses from accumulating enough arms that
they could initiate force against the government and win, even if they
have not yet actually started?  "Just because we have detailed maps of
all your bases, artillery solutions including tomorrow's wind to
neutralize all your armor, and friends with guns in strike positions
doesn't mean we scrubthemission were going to conquer you, honest!"  A
government that failed to do that would soon cease to exist.

And then there are incidents like Katrina, where the Earth itself
initiates force against people...and then some people are in turn
forced to initiate force against others to survive.  "We need food and
water!  Sell it to us at prices we can afford - and we can't afford
much - or we'll take it, legal or illegal.  We're dead otherwise."  One
could argue that a government trying to maintain its monopoly on force
has a vested interest in making sure that situation never arises - for
example, by providing search and rescue, medical treatment, and other
resources after a disaster, and by taking action to minimize or prevent
damage from foreseeable disasters (and a Katrina-like problem in NO was
foreseen way in advance).  Said actions including maintaining the roads
to allow emergency response teams quick access after a disaster,
enforcing building codes, et cetera.

Which is not to defend everything the government does.  Just that quite
a lot of its functions arguably stem from making sure no one else ever
initiates force.