[extropy-chat] Spanish Socialists consider givingapeshuman-levelrights

[nvitamore at austin.rr.com]

From: George Dvorsky 

>> Isn't this a bit fascist to force a species to upgrade and achieve a
higher 
>> intelligence.

I don't think George had that vision in mind. 

Species upgrade for survival.  I can see where human would intentionally
upgrade a species without its consent to save the species from dying out. 
Taking the DNA of endangered species and reharvesting the species with
genetic upgrades is a pretty smart preventative measure to keep the genetic
mutations from reoccuring again.  

>It would be fascist not to, because fascists believe in the perpetuation 
>and subjugation of cognitively stratified groups.

I do sympathize with your plight but there are many reasons why people
anywhere might not be wholly supportive of your views. Fascism has nothing
to do with not wanting or being able to upgrade animals or an animal
companion.  There are many factors, one of which is the financial
responsibility of investing in the upgrade, another is knowing how much is
enough. Taking an animal out of its evolutionary comfort zone could be
damaging to the animal if done more for a human's moral cause than an
animal's genetic needs.  

If an animal is suffering, then providing upgrades to alleviate the
suffering would be humane. A less urgent trajectory is devleoping
perspectives to consider the animals current cognitive abilities and if the
animals are making advances to communicate with humans for help.  Here is
an small example: my dog Oscar sometimes comes up to me and let's me know
that he wants something as he tries his best to communicate with me. As
much as I try to understand what he wants, some of the time we both end up
frustrated.  He feels he has failed and I feel I have not provided for him.
Then I wonder how much of this I am internalizing irrationally and how much
of it I am anthropomorphizing.  He doesn't care, he just finds a toy,
continues about happily.

Sometimes I wish that he had the intelligence of a seven year old rather
than a four year old. But then he would lose some of his delightful
characteristics. I already have a friend who is seven and I still prefer to
be with Oscar.

Upgrading a Gorilla or an orangutan is a different story. They are not true
animal companions, but an admired species that we are fascinated by and
also a bit frightened of because of the proximity in our family tree.

There is a Gorilla named Koko who was the subject of a long project with
Penny Patterson.  Koko was the first of her species to communicate via sign
language. She even eventually selected her mate through a computer which
displayed profiles of available males.  http://www.koko.org/  I think it
would be very interesting for you to see what Penny thinks about your
activism.  

(snip)
Most of us did not ask to be born into the evolutionary state in whicih we
were born.


>Finally, I'm amazed at some of the small thinking, here. When we talk 
>about uplifting *in the long run*, we're not talking about lifting 
>animals to Homo sapien equiv existence, nor are we even talking about 
>high IQ gorillas. Rather, we're talking about endowing animals with all 
>those things we ourselves are hoping for as transhumanists -- namely 
>those interventions that will lead to postbiological existence.


I think you just need to engage more.  

Best wishes,

Natasha


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