[extropy-chat] "Dead Time" of the Brain.

[A B]

Hi Heartland,
   
  Heartland wrote:
   
  "That illusion will happen as part of a 
verifiably different *instance* of mind process than the original instance of that 
same *type* of process. As people, we are instances, not types. That's the biggest 
misconception that people bring to this kind of debate, namely, that people are 
types."
   
  I don't think that Space/Time trajectory is sufficient to distinguish any specific instance of mind-process from any other. The key to my objection here lies with the necessary mind-*process*. As I pointed out in an old post, a vitrified brain retains a Space/Time trajectory that is every bit as real and valid as a trajectory followed by a living brain (A living brain and a vitrified brain are both "4-D"). While a brain is vitrified it is *not* conducting a mind-*process* at all. So, upon very close examination, the "original" mind-process (original instance) *cannot* at all be distinguished by Space/Time trajectory, from the "copied" mind-process (copied instance) - it is the *same* brain. I realize this paragraph may be difficult to follow, but I couldn't find a way to make it more straightforward.
   
  So a different "instance" *cannot* be distinguished based on Space/Time trajectory.
   
  So *how exactly* can a "copy" be distinguished from an (recently dead) "original"?:
   
  Subjectively there is no difference. Objectively there is no difference. The copy detects no difference. The dead original detects no difference... obviously. So, where can the difference possibly lie?
   
  The answer is that we, right now, *are* copies (imperfect ones) of the person who existed a moment before. He or she, the "original", has permanently died; they "experience" nothingness. If you doubt this assertion, ask yourself this question:
   
  Where the hell is the 5 year old "version" of "me"? I know he existed once, where did I put him? The answer is that he is permanently deceased. He is not detectable either subjectively or objectively. He does not detect himself. He is dead. In my case, I am a "copy" of him (a dramatically imperfect copy - due to the large number of successive copying events that have already occurred since then). The copying event occurs once every few Planck Intervals (possibly once every single Planck Interval, but more likely at least 2). In this context a copying event is equivalent to any physical change in the brain (and remember that changes occur as time proceeds).
   
  My entire "time-slicing" argument is not even necessary in order to show that the above is correct. A person will be copied many, many times within ~10^29 Planck Intervals. But, I hope that it helps to make the point.
   
  "...but it is not the arrangement of atoms that 
produces mind, it's the *activity* of matter in space and time that directly causes 
mind to emerge."
   
  I shouldn't have put it that way. I agree that the mind is an active process. I only meant that both atoms and the special pattern of atoms that constitute a brain, are necessary but not quite sufficient to allow a human mind. Activity through time is also necessary.
   
  Sorry if this post sounds Jerkish, its been a long day. Need sleep. 
   
  Best Wishes,
   
  Jeffrey Herrlich
   
    Heartland <velvet977 at hotmail.com> wrote:
  Heartland wrote:
"It's also important to note that atoms as 4-D objects are non-mind processes so my
conclusion that irreversible death occurs when 4-D mind object degenerates into
non-mind objects still stands."

Jeffrey wrote:
"Yes, I still fully agree with this statement.
If a mind-process is stopped, as it is in vitrification, the mind is verifiably 
absent, the "original" person is forever dead. The revived person will be a "copy", 
no argument from me.
But, I still believe that the "illusion" of continuity will be present. The 
subjective experience will not be lost. I believe that revival from suspension 
would "feel" no different than waking from a dreamless sleep."

That's exactly what would happen. I've never questioned that except this illusion 
will belong to a copy, not the original. That illusion will happen as part of a 
verifiably different *instance* of mind process than the original instance of that 
same *type* of process. As people, we are instances, not types. That's the biggest 
misconception that people bring to this kind of debate, namely, that people are 
types.

Jeffrey:
"I say this because I think that we ourselves are continually dieing in a permanent 
way already. At the end of each "round" of "life" (I can't yet say how long this 
is) we die permanently and experience *nothingness*. It is the physical substance 
of our brains (the atoms in their particular arrangement) that manifests the next 
"copy" that "occupies" our brains and our lives, and this cycle continues on and on 
until the brain is physically destroyed and cannot support a conscious mind at 
all."

This is where we disagree. I don't think we are constantly dying and I have a good 
reason to think so. You wrote: "It is the physical substance of our brains (the 
atoms in their particular arrangement) that manifests the next "copy" that 
"occupies" our brains and our lives," but it is not the arrangement of atoms that 
produces mind, it's the *activity* of matter in space and time that directly causes 
mind to emerge. If there were no atoms (theoretically) and that activity would be 
present then we would still experience life. This *activity* (mind process) never 
stops during the time interval when no signals flow through neuronal network. Why? 
Because the substance of that activity is energy and as long as we live that energy 
is being more or less conserved. When we get to the bottom of it all, it's not the 
atoms or pattern of brain structure that is the mind. We are a system of energy 
flow.


Jeffrey:
"I would just like to provide my speculations on the "experience" of permanent 
death. When the mind process stops, and the mind is absent, permanent death has 
occurred, the person has "entered" nothingness. But nothingness, is not anything 
that can be "experienced", not even in principle. Nothingness is not equivalent to 
a sensory deprivation tank. You do not "see" a black void when you die. You do not 
"hear" nothingness. You are not "frightened" by the "experience", because it is 
*not* an experience. Just remember, we have each, without doubt, already been dead 
once... the entire time before we were conceived."

Yes, I could have written this part myself.

S. 
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