[extropy-chat] Group Loyalties Post-Singularity (was Economic consensus on immigration)

[Lee Corbin]

John B writes

> What about Mayan culture, or Japan in the various
> empire periods? (Weren't they also using a figleaf of
> empire in some of feudal periods as well?) Weren't
> those 'nationalistic'? Or China's history of a single
> style of bureaucracy thru multiple dynasties?

I agree that very similar impulses and aspirations dominated
the thinking of the Mayan kings and queens, or, in fact 
historical examples too numerous to mention. But "nationalism"
was different, in that it attained the highest level of
effect identification thus achieved.  (Oh, there are a few
people, e.g. on this list, who conceive their loyalties to
the entire human race or to intelligent life itself, but
their numbers are insignificant.)

But I really wanted to attend to what Anders and you are
saying concerning my claims about the singularity.

> Anders wrote

> > Why wouldn't nation states survive the singularity? 
> 
> Excellent question. There is no reason that I know of
> that nationality, religion, pseudoscience, liking for
> football, or other 'waste of time' activity might not
> survive the singularity. 
> 
> Additionally, if we assume that the singularity is not
> all-encompassing in its scope

That's assumption #1

> - sweeping up every sophont within a short period of
> time - there's a huge divide waiting to be exploited
> - pre- and post-singularity sophonces will most likely
> have radically different goals, conceptualizations,
> and explanations for themselves. Therefore, IMO,
> assuming SOME form of social clustering continues to exist,

That's assumption #2

> there's a huge rationale for developing pre- and post-
> singularity social clusters.

Under "fast takeoff", everything will depend on the goals of
the winner AI that takes over first. If it's beneficent
then yes, some games people play (like national rivalries
or religious affiliations) may persist, but there won't be
much meaning left to them.  Not if a beneficent Overmind
offers everyone much greater intelligence and understanding.
And if it's not beneficent, then we all die anyway.

Under a "slow takeoff", our values, our understanding, what
is important to "us" (whatever we become) will undergo such
radical transformation to preclude us from much speculation
now.  It's as though someone from the EEA were to demand
of 21st civilization ("Well, I dunno about all that stuff
you're talking about; what I want to know is whether game
can still be found in the high ranges in winter.")

We would have to patiently explain that his old concerns were
no longer at all relevant.

(It was for that reason that I stated that the fitness of
and survival of various nations and ethnic groups and so
on is likely to be of little consequence post singularity,
and nation-states will almost surely be as obsolete as 
winter hunting in high pastures.)

Lee