[extropy-chat] Identity (was: Survival tangent)

[John K Clark]

Me:
>> If I place you (the copy) and the original an  equal distance
>>from the center of a symmetrical room so you see the same
>>things and then instantly swap your bodies position with the
>>original then neither you nor the original nor any outside
>>observer could detect the slightest change. There was no
>>change because although there were 2 bodies in the room
>>there was only one person.

Randall Randall" <randall at randallsquared.com>

> This appears to be the argument that had the Soviets been perfectly
> successful in erasing all records of Trotsky, he would really not have
> been there.

That's true, it you erased all records of Trotsky then Trotsky would never
have been, however it is physically imposable to do so. Recently Stephen
Hawking finally conceded that noting, not even a Black Hole, can destroy
information. I don't believe the Soviets could do what a Black Hole could
not.

Does this contradict my earlier statement that a BEC can erase the
individual history of an atom? No. Before the BEC is formed we know that one
particular atom, lets call him Bob the Hydrogen atom, did this that and the
other thing, it had a history. After the BEC forms you still know a
particular atom had this history, but it's imposable to know even in theory
which atom is Bob. No information is lost because it doesn't matter under
ANY circumstances which atom is Bob.

> there are an infinite number of John K Clark bodies, widely separated by
> space, but in your view all with an equal claim to being *you*, right?

Certainly.

> So, when you walk across the street, why dodge a car that almost hits you?

If cars are coming toward all my copies and none of us decides to move to
safety then we're all dead. If I'm the only one with a killer car after me
then my "exact" copies are no longer even approximately exact, I'm having a
terrifying and traumatic experience and they are not.

But to be honest I doubt if any of those thoughts would enter my head in the
split second I had to jump to safety. The real reason I'd get out of the way
is because that's the way my brain is wired, and it's wired that way because
if it were not creatures like me would never have evolved.

> You feel that all processes of the person-type you call John K Clark are
> equivalent for all purposes, where we would say that they are only
> equivalent for non-subjective purposes.

But there is no way you can be correct, absolutely positively no way. In my
thought experiment I had you (the copy) and the original standing an equal
distance from the center of a symmetrical room. I use a Star Trek brand
transporter to instantly exchange your positions, or if you prefer I leave
your bodies alone and just exchange the two brains. There is no way
subjectively you would notice that anything had happened, and objective
outside observers would not notice anything had happened. There would not
even be a way to tell if the machine was actually working. If objectively it
makes no difference and subjectively if makes no difference then I conclude
it just makes no damn difference.

  John K Clark