[extropy-chat] Religion worked for survival - Russel Wallace

[Al Brooks]

No shortage of religion in the Mideast yet the region
possesses an equal measure of nihilism & self hatred
to ours. But as you imply, the Mideast birthrate is
robust-- plenty of young boys born into religious
families today to choose as their fate suicide bombing
in the decade between 2020 and 2030.
The greatest civilization that ever existed is
"dying"? Can you prove it is "dying"?


>Look at what happens
> to modern cultures
> where
> religion is gone: they fall apart into self-hatred
> and nihilism, birth rates
> plummeting below extinction level, their people
> rapidly headed for oblivion.
> The greatest civilization that ever existed on this
> planet is dying, in what
> should have been its hour of triumph - dying not of
> any external threat, but
> of its own parasite memes; and who will pick up the
> torch once we are gone?"
> *
> 
> 
> Really?  I know an awful lot of atheists who are
> very delighted with
> life and this universe and consider life extremely
> full
> >
> *If that works for them, great, though I will note
> that most people who give
> up belief in God, in order to find meaning in life,
> need to substitute some
> equivalent belief: aliens, the Singularity,
> reincarnation or whatever*.
> 
> > What fanatical religious preachers taught them
> this, you may wonder? Why,
> > some of the names are quite familiar. Gould,
> Dawkins, Dennett.
> >
> > This is beyond the pale.
> 
> I'm sorry it offends you to see things called by
> their right names.
> 
> Preach?  There is no rational reason for believing
> in God that I am aware
> of.
> 
> There's no rational reason for believing in the
> Singularity either (yes,
> like most myths it was inspired by some nuggets of
> truth, but the vast bulk
> of what's written about it is as much a fable as
> Noah bringing two of each
> animal aboard the ark). I don't see you going around
> proclaiming this to be
> irrational.  *
> *
>  Theism has done a great deal of harm.
> 
> But far more good than harm.
> 
> A parable, quoting from memory so the wording may
> not be accurate, but the
> gist of it is:
> 
> Young man: "I can see no use for that fence, let's
> get rid of it."
> Old man: "Certainly not. Go and study the problem
> some more, and when you
> come back and tell me you _can_ see a use for it...
> _then_ we can start
> talking about whether to get rid of it."
> 
> Superstitious and irrational thinking does even
> more. How is it
> preaching to say this is so?   Again, what is your
> beef?  I don't see
> anything you seem to be saying in the actual
> article.
> >
> 
> It isn't about Dennett's article - if it were just
> him, I wouldn't have said
> anything. It's about the prevailing meme in Western
> intellectual circles
> these days that tearing down Christianity and its
> value system is somehow a
> rational or wise thing to do.
> 
> Are you claiming that those who say what they
> honestly thing about
> religion and theism should be despised or censored
> for saying it?
> >
> 
> *I have not advocated censoring anyone. What I think
> should be done is this:
> when Dawkins goes around using his science to preach
> atheism, someone - it'd
> have to be someone who'd be listened to, something
> like a professor of
> evolutionary biology at a well-known university
> would be ideal - should
> stand up and say: "Dawkins is of course entitled to
> preach his religious
> beliefs - in his capacity as a private citizen.
> Science says nothing
> whatsoever about the existence or nonexistence of
> God, and it is a fallacy
> to claim it as authority on either side of that
> debate."
> *
> We all agree teaching science is important. I claim
> it is equally important
> to teach that science is compatible with
> pro-survival value systems.
> 
> Not one of these people says that science proves
> there is no god.
> >
> 
> Have you actually read any of Gould or Dawkins'
> recent works?
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