[extropy-chat] it's not natural!

The Avantguardian avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com
Tue Oct 31 07:08:31 UTC 2006

--- Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sigh. Even within the Christian worldview, those
> outraged priests are
> hopelessly confused. They demonstrate quite clearly
> that, even within
> their own professed worldview, they have no idea
> what sin actually is.

If I had to try on a daily basis to reconcile my 21st
century world with the world as it is portrayed in a
mideval translation of a bronze-age text, I too would
be confused.

> Sin, to the Christian, is NOT "unnatural behavior".
> Quite the
> opposite. Christians believe that, as a result of
> certain ancient
> events, the natural world, including humanity, is
> afflicted by a
> systemic bias towards evil.

What ancient events - the fall of man? Are you saying
that what is natural is inherently evil? Is then
nature purely evil or merely mostly so? Why would God
create nature to be evil?

Was the fall of man then, the fall of all nature as
well? By disobeying God, did Adam doom the
hummingbirds to evil and death along with himself and
his children?

> Homosexuality, as demonstrated by this exhibition,
> may very well be
> perfectly natural. This, if demonstrated, would in
> affect whether or not homosexual behavior was
> sinful.

Then for a Christian, God should be the final judge of
sin, correct? For Jesus clearly tells us to "judge not
lest ye be judged yourself." So on what basis is
consentual homosexuality borne of love wrong?
> There are many, many perfectly natural human
> behaviors that are
> unambiguously sinful, within the Christian
> worldview. Lying,
> selfishness, hatred, promiscuity, adultery, rape,
> murder.

So if I give a terrorist the wrong directions to a
school, I am commiting an unambiguous sin? 

> These are
> all perfectly "natural" behaviors. They occur
> spontaneously throughout
> the animal kingdom, and even among human children.
> No child, anywhere,
> has ever needed to be taught to be selfish, or to
> lie. It comes
> perfectly naturally, to all of us.
Yet Jesus tells us, "Suffer little children to come
unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the
kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall
not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall
in no wise enter therein."

So if children are naturally born evil, because they
are born in a state of nature instead of a state of
grace, why would Jesus say that emulating their
behavior is the key to salvation?

> Within the Christian worldview, this is why everyone
> needs a savior.
> We all have this built in bias towards evil
> behaivior, and we all do
> these things instinctively, on a continuous, ongoing
> basis.

So within the Christian world-view, it is more
important to have a savior then to actually control
ones behavior? More important to be forgiven for
wrongs already commited then to train ones mind to not
commit them at all? Because it is impossible to not do
them? Thus we are relieved of all responsibility for
our actions except to feel remorse for them

> Yes. As someone raised within the Orthodox Jewish
> tradition you know
> all about this one. It's called, in English, the Ten
> Commandments.
> 1. You shall have no other Gods before me.
> 2. You shall not worship idols.
> 3. You shall not blaspheme God.
> 4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
> 5. Honor your mother and father.
> 6. You shall not kill.
> 7. You shall not commit adultery.
> 8. You shall not steal.
> 9. You shall not lie.
> 10. You shall not covet.
> We all break these, to one extent or another, on a
> continuous, ongoing
> basis.

Why is it so ingrained into you that you must continue
to do these things that you know are wrong? As if you
had no choice but to cheat old ladies out of their
social security, pop a cap into your neighbor, and
sleep with your best friend's girl?

BTW which of these commandments does homosexuality
fall under? "Coveting thy neighbor's ass?" :)  

> It's natural to us. But it being natural
> doesn't make it right.
> That we do wrong things on a regular basis, and
> don't even seem to
> care, and even if we care, we don't seem able to
> stop, and that there
> are eternal consequences for this, is the problem
> Christianity offers
> a solution for.

So then Josef Stalin may have gotten into heaven if
the night before he died, he prayed to God for

Yet a Hindu like Gandhi, who followed his Dharma and
did no wrong for fear of bad Karma, will roast in hell
because of the ill-fortune of thinking God's name was
Krishna instead of Jesus?

And if you still think that homosexuality is wrong,
please explain what Apostle Paul means when he writes
in 1 Corinthians 16:20 "All the brethren greet you.
Greet ye one another with an holy kiss."

Is he just refering to the female brethren?

Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."- Siddhartha Guatama aka Buddha.

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