[extropy-chat] Defending freedom

[Brett Paatsch]

Keith wrote:

At 08:36 AM 4/19/2007 +1000, Brian wrote:

>I am a libertarian. Being a libertarian in my book carries
>duties to defend freedom when freedom is threatened.

So it seemed to me back in 1996 when the scientology cult threatened
freedom of speech by trying to destroy a news group.  Somebody had to do
it, but I can tell you the cost so far has been a large multiple of the
most I ever earned in a year.

> We can't take out money with us Keith. What we can do
    is influence the reputations we leave behind.

>George W Bush's "war on terror" is the stupidist most
>absurb proposition turned into policy that a country full
>of appeasers has sat and nodded at since Caligula married
>his horse.
>
>When the nazis came to power in Germany they were able
>to do so because men and women that could have together
>done something about it did not act early enough.

I used to think that way.  Wore a white rose to my court appearances
even.  Now I am not at all sure they could have had an effect against the
social forces at work and the psychological traits humans have that came
out of our history as hunter gatherers.

> You are wrong about the psychological traits that came out of human
    history. Its not hunter gather times that shapes modern behavior its
    the modern jungle still there beneath the thinest of thin venears.


>I have issues with American libertarians because they are
>not, in sufficient numbers or more importantly in significant
>effective efforts, defending the most fundamental freedoms
>of all.

It takes organized groups to affect policy in a democracy.

> Crap. How many organised people was Jefferson, (I count
him as one). How many was Madison (I count him as one more).
The list goes on an on. Those guys didn't have the internet to
work with or to speak from.

Organizing libertarians is a task akin to herding cats.

> Dial a cliche.

 Max did it better than anyone else I know.

> Did. As in past tense.

 I am even more of a "lead by example" and look where it got me.

> I am glad to see that you are posting. I am glad to see you
   are not in Guantamano bay.

>Your extropian principles were an excellent effort by the
>younger man that was yourself to articulate a vision for a
>way forward. But fine words uttered in ones youth are not
>enough.
>
>If one will not stand up and fight for a principle and struggle and
>even die for a principle, ones most cherished principle, then one
>is not really alive.

I agree with you.

Sorry if I have not been paying attention, but could you fill me in with
what you have been doing?  I know it is not on the level you want to
deal with, but would you like to picket the scientology cult with me?

> No. The scientology cult isn't in a position to appoint supreme
court judges, tear up the constitution or invade foreign countries.

It isn't *that* likely to get you jail time or make you an exile.

You really should not expect people to maintain the fire for more than a
few decades.


> I expect that if they don't then other people will light fires under
them.


>Your extropian principles, as has been discussed before, by folk
>like Hal come into tension with each other.
>
>We all have to make our living in this less than ideal world. But
>if we don't take a stand on anything because the highest goal
>we have is always to keep ourselves alive then we never really
>live.

That's true.  I have been with Max when we both had HIV contaminated fluids
up to our elbows.  That's taking a stand and a serious risk to life.  By
your standard we have really lived.  Hope you have really lived as well.

>Bush has attacked science and reason and technology and
>people. He has said you are with us (meaning him) or against
>us.  When Presidents or Feuhrers say those things and act
>above the law we cannot not take them seriously.

Unfortunately, an irrational leader is what you should expect to develop
when the hunter gatherer band is under attack.

> My point exactly. If you country is no better than a hunter gather
  band, stand by, to be replaced by something better and more
  evolved.

But if you have any specific ideas, please let me know.  Private email if 
you like.

> My idea is that you uphold the constitution and laws that you already
   have. My idea is that when a President takes an oath to you as a citizen
   that he will uphold the constitution and its laws, that you bloody well 
insist
  that he does. My idea for you is that you should write your 
representatives
  in congress demanding that the promise that was made you be kept.

>The rule of law could use your support at this point in history
>Max.  Humanity could.  I could.

It's a much more difficult situation than I thought it would be eleven
years ago.  The rule of law depends on honest courts.

> The President picks the supreme court judges. The President appoints
   the Attorney General.   Are you aware of where the Attorney General
   is at the moment?

What can you do when you find the courts themselves are committing
criminal acts?

> If you don't wait to long you can use your free speach to stop the rot. 
> You
can get others of like minds to work with you.

If you do wait to long the characters like Hitler just rewrite the 
constitution
and appoint the judges and then the "scientologists" or any scoundrels
they like do what they like.

I know of your adventures and troubles with scientology. I am glad you
took a stand. But you are right about one thing scientology is small beer
compared to trying to get a president impeached when that president
has the power to declare you an enemy combatant, suspend habeas
corpus (the Military Commissions Act 2006) and have you picked
up and imprisoned, and essentially tortured whilst not calling it torture
entirely on his say so.

At this point in time one does not need to fight in the streets of america
to stop it becoming the fourth reich. One can, at this point in time,
use the political process and write, or email, or protest.  But that can
change.

If you don't impeach this president any politician with dictatorial 
aspirations
watching current politics will learn that the American sheeple are ripe
for ready for fleecing and roasting.

Brett Paatsch