[extropy-chat] Putting God to Rest

[Samantha Atkins]

Sorry for the late response.

Anna Taylor wrote:
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Actually everyone has a right to believe whatever
>> they wish but they have no right whatsoever to
>> respect or kind treatment for believing pernicious
>> nonsense.  The nonsense itself has no "rights" at
>> all. There is no "debate" implied or required here.
>>     
>
> There is no debate for you.  Are you implying that any
> and all people that believe in God should have no
> right to respect?  
>
>   
I have no need to debate a subject I have studied long and hard and 
reached completion on.  I certainly have no need to "debate" with those 
who believe nonsense such as bible inerrancy that it is clearly 
erroneous or bizarre notions at blatant contradiction with reality like 
the world only being a few thousand years old.  Those people deserve not 
one iota of respect.  Just because a set of ideas is shrouded in 
"religion" does not mean they should be automatically respected more. 
They stand or fall on their own merits.  I never said that belief in God 
per se deserves disrespect.  It depends.


>> What, by debating how many angels can dance on a
>> nanobot?   How does that help anyone?  
>>     
>
> I choose to respect her beliefs and in that I try to
> incorporate ideas to integrate within her reality. 
> Are you saying the best approach is to simply tell her
> she's a complete idiot for believing in Religion?  How
> does that help anyone?
>
>   
Depends on the "Religion".  If they particular beliefs are nonsense and 
even harmful nonsense then not saying so can be tacit support.  This 
does not mean that it makes sense to say so in all circumstances.

>> What business do you have speaking about God and what
>> God might object to?  
>>     
>
> I have taken the time to learn theology so I feel I
> have every business discusing God with my mother.
>
>   
Not the same thing.  Context was lost.   If you act contrary to your own 
understanding that is not a good thing.  If you do not believe in God 
and yet speak about what God wants then that is a clear contradiction.

>> You know you are talking nonsense yet you
>> condescendingly talk religious baby talk to them to
>> try to get your point across to those who believe. 
>> This is dishonest and perhaps cowardly.  Are you
>> ashamed to be an atheist?
>>     
>
> There are many things I respect about Religion
> therefore I don't believe it's nonsense.  If taking 
> the time to understand someone else's point of view 
> is dishonest and cowardly, then yes I am.  I don't
> understand how a post about common courtesy for other
> people's beliefs has anything to do with me being
> ashamed to be an atheist.
>
>   
If you do not believe what you are couching you arguments in then that 
is dishonest.  If you hide your own beliefs and best understanding then 
perhaps you are acting out of fear and not "respect" at all.   I am not 
talking here about "common courtesy" and I think you know it.

>> You don't?  Then why aren't you a believer?
>>     
>
> Who cares whether I am a believer or not?  I thought
> this list was about Transhumanism, future technology,
> prolonging life etc., if it is,  whether the majority 
> is Atheist has no relevancy to the fact that the
> minority have every right to be respected. If the
> Extropy list is set on defining that "to be Extropian
> one must be atheist" then fine but until that is
> clearly stated everybody on this list deserves the
> right to be respected.  When you denounce Religion,
> you are not respecting their beliefs.
>
>   
You said at one time that you are not a believer.  Then you speak as if 
you are or see nothing problematic about being one.  So I am a bit 
confused where you stand on the matter or in my attempts to understand 
your position.    No one has the right to automatic respect.   Respect 
is earned or it is a sham meaning nothing. 

I don't know why you want to go down this path of "if X then Y" about 
hypotheticals not remotely in evidence.  I speak for myself not for the 
list.    Much of religion is reprehensible.  That is my experience and 
very considered opinion.  It came from many years of my life diligently 
exploring the subject both theoretically and as a serious practitioner.  
How dare you tell me that my considered opinion is disrespectful of 
those who believe!   What a cheap shot.

>> You may do something worse than not try.  You seem
>> to sort of pretend to take her side. 
>>     
>
> What if I grew up in Religion and decided it wasn't
> for me?  Does that mean I am pretending to take her
> side?  What if I understand her point of view, just
> simply don't agree?.  I may not change her mind about
> God but bringing up ideas such as Cryonics from her
> point of view is a creative way at getting my point
> accross, that to me seems more logical than calling
> her beliefs "bullshit".
>
>   
If you decided it is not for you then why act as if it is is all I am 
saying.  I understand her point of view myself.   

>> If God exists and is as the majority of Christians
>> believe then I would most certainly be on the "other
>> side".  Such a Being would be monstrously evil.   
>>     
>
> I would like for you to explain to me what are the
> common beliefs about God that the majority of
> Christians have.  "Such a Being would be Monstrously
> evil" is the reason why I brought up the point to
> begin with.
>
>   
Presumably you grew up in it so you are perfectly aware of such.  Start 
with the doctrine of eternal damnation for one measly lifetime where the 
proper dogma was somehow not properly believed and go on from there.   
To create imperfect beings and then punish them eternally for not being 
perfect is about as definitive of Evil as it gets.


>> Do you see what is wrong with telling many of us
>> here that we must "respect their beliefs" in a
>> similar fashion to what you choose to do or we aren't
>> reasonable people?   Thank you for your opinion but
>> it is certainly not binding on me.
>>     
>
> I am not saying that you have to respect their
> beliefs, I am saying you should respect the people on
> this list that may be religious.
>   

By what, being silently about my own conclusions on the matter?  No way.

>   
>> Then I do not believe you are through learning about
>> religion.  If you knew it better you would have a
>> problem with it.
>>     
>
> Why should I have a problem with it?  Explain to me
> why religion as a whole is that bad.  I am aware why I
> don't believe but I would like to hear your rational
> point of views.
>   

That is a long subject.  Perhaps later.

>   
>> What for?  What is it about a group of people who
>> are more shut of religion saying what they think of
>> it that bothers you so much?  
>>     
>
> I loathe disrespect. This list is not about Religion
> therefore out of respect for those that are religious,
> comments and statements that ridicule their beliefs
> should not be made.  What is wrong with that?
>
>   
I think you may have an odd notion of what respect entails or how and 
when it should be shown.   If I have found through my own study that X 
is ridiculous I would no be doing anyone any favors by refusing to say 
so.  It certainly would not be any sign of "respect".    The world of 
the Enlightenment in under attack in the US by many religious 
organizations.   Such automatic "respect" could lead to the destruction 
of much we hold dear.



>> You grant religious folks room to believe and
>> practice all manner of zany and even dangerous things
>> and respect them doing so and don't go out your way
>> to challenge them.  Yet a few things set by atheists
>> here and you feel utter frustration and get upset? 
>> Why? I think you may need to examine what is going on
>> in you more deeply.
>>     
>
> I think it's the other way around.  Your blatant hate
> does nothing to change the minds of those that are
> religious so why state the opinion in the first place?
>  Have you ever thought that I consider many on this
> list as being rational and logical and in that
> respect, I choose to defend the ones that are being
> subjected to ridicule and contempt?  I'm sorry you
> don't understand that.  
>
>   
I have no "blatant hate" and it is very hateful of you to say I do.    
Your responses seem contradictory to me.

> Obviously my point wasn't well received, I apologize
> for that.  It wasn't my intention to start a battle
> between the religious and the atheists, I was just
> trying to give the same respect to those that are
> Atheists as to those that aren't.  You can guarantee I
> will never bring up Religion again, what a fuss!
>
>   
No you were not.  You were telling atheists in effect to shut up.  

- samantha