From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Nov  1 03:51:02 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:51:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710310207.l9V27L5C006473@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <5E76AF6E-D98E-412A-AD85-BE97BDE99D23@mac.com>
	<200710310207.l9V27L5C006473@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <1193889063_361@S1.cableone.net>

At 06:40 PM 10/30/2007, you wrote:
> > To: ExI chat list
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] abandoning hope
> >
> > On Oct 30, 2007, at 6:37 AM, Amara Graps wrote:
> > >
> > > It should be also for those who are desperate to leave Italy.
> > >
> > > Monday (yesterday morning at 9:30) my wallet was stolen at a major
> > > Rome bus terminal / metro stop.
> > >
> > > All passports, identity cards, permits, credit cards (but one), bank
> > > cards, drivers licenses, ...
>
>Amara, if or when it becomes necessary to raise a posse to ride out on a
>rescue Amara mission, do let us know when, where and how.  I would be
>interested to see what a diffuse cloud of transhumanist oriented individual
>particles can accomplish if called upon to do so.  I fear we weren't much
>help to Keith, but perhaps we were better than nothing.

You were actually *very* helpful.  It's just that our numbers (and 
tactics) are ineffective in the face of so much social inertia.

To some extent people deserve what happens because of their inattention.

Keith 


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov  1 04:48:22 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:48:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <1193889063_361@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200711010514.lA15ErMq029667@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson
...
> >...  I fear we weren't much
> >help to Keith, but perhaps we were better than nothing.
> 
> You were actually *very* helpful...

Thanks Keith.  I have often worried that we made lotsa noise, but when the
actual shooting started we scattered like roaches.

>  It's just that our numbers (and
> tactics) are ineffective in the face of so much social inertia...

Ja.  The concentration of active transhumanists on this planet are a few
parts per billion among the human population.  I fear we have had little
impact so far.  I sure cannot point a finger because there are there would
be at least three pointing back at myself.  I have done durn little to
promote transhumanism, other than to entertain my normal friends with tales
of brain prosthetics and freezing my head upon my demise.

> To some extent people deserve what happens because of their inattention.
> 
> Keith

The one less gloomy aspect to this is that we at least have a lot more
theoretical access to information than ever before, because of the internet.
The story of your struggle with Co$ went round the world thousands of times
and reached millions of people.  (But very little was said by the old
fashioned ink on dead trees medium, including your old home town rag the
Palo Alto Daily.  I guess we can now start calling that medium
non-blackberry newpapers.)

spike






From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 05:18:17 2007
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:18:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server?
In-Reply-To: <200710260054.l9Q0sFCq010051@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <c49b1db60710211759v6ba41e7x75c91c4f0d4125db@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710260054.l9Q0sFCq010051@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60710312218j2123a25k54f1b02e12c9ee1a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/07, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> The sun-earth system can increase in entropy while the earth enjoys a
> local
> decrease in entropy.  During this process the sun increases in
> entropy.  The
> sun being large, increases entropy as it fuses hydrogen to helium.  No
> physical laws are violated for local low entropy regions to form within
> such
> a system.  Creationists like to claim otherwise, but I have yet to see
> them
> prove it with calculations.
>
> spike


That's a good point.  I'm going to have to look up the equations to get a
quantitative answer.  Thanks for the response.

Kevin
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov  1 05:46:16 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:46:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server?
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60710312218j2123a25k54f1b02e12c9ee1a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711010546.lA15kBxw000965@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin H
Subject: Re: [ExI] Extropy IRC server?

On 10/25/07, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>The sun-earth system can increase in entropy while the earth enjoys a
local decrease in entropy.??During this process the sun increases in
entropy...No physical laws are violated for local low entropy regions to
form within such a system...

spike

>That's a good point.? I'm going to have to look up the equations to get a
quantitative answer.? Thanks for the response.  Kevin

/
/

Kevin, I would recommend my thermodynamics text books from college but they
now have that old book smell, and will likely crumble in my hands should I
attempt to open them.  Bookworms have lived there long enought that genetic
drift has occurred to such an extent that they may have evolved into
distinct species.  Fortunately there are websites that can surely instruct
one on how that calculation goes.

spike


From amara at amara.com  Thu Nov  1 06:25:56 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 07:25:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope - the queuing experience
Message-ID: <p06230904c34f1c6caf1b@[23.237.66.13]>

"Spike" <spike66 at att.net>:
>Ja. But the art of queuing should break down.  If there are many customers
>in line anywhere, the merchant needs to open additional registers.  If they
>haven't enough proles working the registers to keep the lines short, the
>customers will take their trade elsewhere, as they should.


Oh ye of little imagination, Spike! Queuing is much more than waiting in
the lines in the bank or at the supermarket. Italy's present
infrastructure has raised the queuing experience to a superb art form.

The most important queue that you'll learn about are the phone queues
for the governmental public services: police, customs, post offices, tax
office, airport lost luggage, taxis (!), ... I'm sure that they've
programmed their phone system so that you get a busy signal in the first
several times. Just when you've just set the speed re-dial on your phone
to keep trying, then you'll hear that same number only ring and ring and
no one answers. Now multiply that for several phone numbers which lead
into the same office. My workplace secretary and I lost 4 days in this
process, trying to locate real people at the Milan Italian customs
office, who were sitting on the box with my computer inside which I
desperately needed to do my job. On another occasion, I spent two days
in this procedure trying to get a status on my lost luggage which
contained materials that I needed to give a talk at a conference in
the next days.

Real line queues for governmental offices are designed to bring you back
to the same window multiple times initially, because those
offices/windows are only open two or three hours a day. It's not over
yet though, because usually there is a second or third office that you
need to visit next, also open two or three hours a day, or not at all for
some period, because the one clerk that knows that job is on holiday.

Another interesting queue can be seen at the Rome Termini train station.
There are 30 TV monitors scattered throughout the train station, all
showing simultaneously the same perfume advertisement, but only 3 large
displays for giving train timetable information. So in order to know on
which track your train leaves, you're in the center of the station in
front of one of those large displays. However, some trains, such as the
unimportant Rome Fiumicino airport train, leave from tracks that are at
least 400 meters away from the display which gives the  timetable
information. Moreover, the timetable information for the track number is
often given only 5 to 10 minutes before the train leaves. Here we see
the classic Italian phenomena: "Wait and Hurry Up".

The Fiumicino train is not the only artful queue in the vicinity of Rome
Fiumicino airport, the luggage coming off of the planes in the baggage
area is another fine example. You can usually find on which carousel
your luggage will appear, but if there are more planes than the eight
rows on the TV monitor, then it's off the display. The time you'll need
to wait is about 40 minutes anyway, so you might as well hang around
that little TV screen and wait until your desired row on the TV finally
appears. Then when you've arrived at the carousel to wait for your
luggage, your luggage is actually emerging on a different carousel.

Before we leave the airport, one last queue I should mention is the one
that develops when the computers that are used to tag luggage with their
airport routing information go down. The solution from the counter personnel
is to handwrite the routing information on sticky white pieces of paper.
You can now guess at the result. The result is that everyone on this
flight during the time that the computers went down did not receive
their luggage at their final destination.

Next, let's go to the post office. Post offices in Italy are not usually
used to mail things, they are used instead to pay one's bills. So there
are several (hopefully) open windows with clerks ready to take your
money for your electricity bill, and always just one window available to
mail your letters. I suppose that the some (or many) of some (or many)
Italians' innate drive to pile up at the front of a queue prompted some
persons to initiate a new queuing system a few years ago, however I'm
not sure that post offices are the appropriate place where such systems
are needed. I think that such training could be better used at car
traffic lights, where the front of the line of cars waiting to turn left
always contains two or more cars gunning their engine to make the break
across the intersection when the light changes, even if that lane can
fit only one-half of a car.

The post office queuing system begins when you punch a button at a
wobbly lime-green machine near the front of the office to receive a
number. Then the customer waits and looks at an LED display in the
corner of the post office which list window numbers and queuing ticket
numbers to guide you to the proper window in an orderly fashion. However,
the time at the post office remains the same because the same queue is
only rearranged, not shortened in any way, which is one way to
experience the old adage: "Tutto deve cambiare perch? nulla cambi"
(everything must change so that nothing will truly change)

And sometimes the post office clerks are new or in a particularly perky
mood that day. He might sit there pushing the button increasing the
queuing number for the window, but it has no correspondence with any
customer or window. He's just having a bit of fun, you see, and why
wouldn't you? Being a postal clerk is a boring job. Your queuing
experience doesn't end there, though. When you arrive at the window
to pick up your package, then you can bet that they will not be able
to find your package and you will need to return to the post office
one or two more times.

Now while the above queues are frustrating and cold-hearted, the queue
at one's local medico office is designed to bring out the best of
Italy's warm and cozy culture. There are no electronic queuing systems.
Instead when you enter a waiting room, the first thing you must ask is
'ultima persona?'. Once you know who is the last person in the queue of
people in that waiting room, then your task for the next hour is simply
to be fixated on that person; when he/she sees the doctor, then you know
that you are next. You see in this way, you immediately make a friend in
the waiting room, and more likely, you will have more attention to give
to the other people in the room, as well. So usually everyone in the room
are almost like family by the end of the hour.

So here I've given you just a small sample of the many creative ways
that queuing works in Italy. I hope that you're suitably enlightened
now.

Ciao,
Amara


From sentience at pobox.com  Thu Nov  1 07:08:05 2007
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:08:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience
In-Reply-To: <p06230904c34f1c6caf1b@[23.237.66.13]>
References: <p06230904c34f1c6caf1b@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <47297B55.3000006@pobox.com>

Amara Graps wrote:
> 
> So here I've given you just a small sample of the many creative ways
> that queuing works in Italy. I hope that you're suitably enlightened
> now.

Note to self:  Never visit Italy.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence

From amara at amara.com  Thu Nov  1 08:32:43 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:32:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope - the queuing experience
Message-ID: <p06230906c34f39216995@[23.237.66.13]>

Eliezer, Italy has a large percentage of the world's art.. For ex. If any
of those sculptures on a random street corner in Rome were moved to the US,
then the US local art curators would put glass around it and charge you
an arm and a leg to see it. In Italy, such art that is all over the
cities is free to see and for everybody. It will be rare to experience
such a phenomenon anyplace else, and it is an absolutely gorgeous place
to visit. When I decided to move to Italy, it was not only because I fell
in love with Serafino, it was because I thought that Italy was so beautiful
and so interesting. So I do  suggest if you have an opportunity, to go.
IF you have time, because time _does_ run differently in a cultural sense.

Most of what I listed is what people who live in Italy must experience
in daily life with the government bureaucracies. Not visitors; with the
exception of the airport and public transportation (that's not easy
either).

I think that Rome Fiumicino generally is an awful airport, but that is
partly slanted to my necessarily heavy use.. I don't care how they might
change its appearance (which occasionally happens); I need it to
function properly because all of my scientific colleagues are located
outside of Italy. In the last 3-4 years I've been traveling for 1/3 of
every month, which means that I've seen and experienced everything
possible that can and does go wrong there. Italy's overall
transportation system is not generally designed for ease of use and
comfort for the passenger, so that's the main point that the visitor
needs to be aware about.

Amara


From amara at amara.com  Thu Nov  1 09:35:29 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:35:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p06230908c34f49cf524f@[23.237.66.13]>

Spike:
>Such an exciting and challenging road thru life you have chosen, ja?

I'm a magnet: When I entered this country with a heart full of love and
good intentions, it began five years of everything that could go wrong,
did go wrong.

Now I'm five years older. genes dead, all of my savings for buying
property gone, but I succeeded to save my science, somehow, because I
could do nothing else in that comedy-tragedy. I would have preferred
much more to have been able to save the other things, though. But if I
left in the first year, not trusting anybody and without trying,
I wouldn't have been me, right?

The large theft of my identity at the end was a kind of Italian toast to
Amara, there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune
now.


Amara


From amara at amara.com  Thu Nov  1 11:11:17 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:11:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p0623090ac34f5f064b5a@[23.237.66.13]>

giovanni santost <santostasigio at yahoo.com>:

>Any time I meet Italian scientists at a conference I'm saddened by 
>their tales of all sorts of problems they encouter in their life in 
>the Italian scientific world and in particular how little they are 
>paid.

The money reflects the value that the culture places on science though.
The problem is much bigger than their salaries.

>And still, Italy manages to be a leader in many fields of science 
>and technology...

Italian scientists are very resourceful out of necessity.

>Maybe the family network compensates so well for the problems you 
>talked about that Italians in the end are extremely attached to 
>their country and it is difficult for them to leave.

If, or when, the family network is no longer able to subsidize (heavily,
like now) the scientists, then Italian science will die.

>I would say the quality of life is superior in many ways in Italy.

If you've been away for while, then maybe you've not experienced the large
time spent in daily life trying to have 'normal' services. Nevertheless,
with the family support so that their financial expenses are manageable,
my colleagues have a fair bit of free time to enjoy their lives.


>It can be interesting to reflect on how Italy went from a center of 
>knowledge and innovation during the Renaissance to a much more 
>stagnant and peripheral place today. Maybe there are important 
>lessons there, in particular from the point of view of 
>transhumanism. Renaissance had a lot of point in common with the 
>vision of the world of transhumanism.
>What went wrong?

Whatever it was, it was a complete break from the past. There doesn't
seem to be any link from the time of da Vinci and Galileo to now in the
culture for the value of science and technology. They lost it all. The
Italian public today views the scientists by-and-large as wastes of
resources and money. That's worse than the low salary, I think.


>Most of my knowledge of what is going in Italy right now comes from 
>talking to my family and the news on the web. Almost every day there 
>are several news that talk about people from Romania, Albania and so 
>on being arrested for some horrible crime. Maybe the media are 
>guilty of some discrimination, but up to a point.

I noticed differences with what the media reports here, and what I saw
and experienced in my weeks of queues at the Questura. Beppe Grillo
might provide another useful source of information for you. He has his
own slant, but there's usually a grain of truth to what he says.

Amara

From amara at amara.com  Thu Nov  1 12:15:03 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:15:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p0623090bc34f736d1398@[23.237.66.13]>

giovanni santost <santostasigio at yahoo.com>:

>And still, Italy manages to be a leader in many fields of science 
>and technology...


The World Economic Forum has a report: "The Global Competitiveness Report"
that it presents every year:

Go here:  http://www.gcr.weforum.org/

Choose "Explore the Report", and then select Italy. Further descriptions
are found in "Country performance", "Problematic Factors" and "Balance
Sheet". This year Italy dropped another few points to 46 out of 130
(the last year it was 42). Italy's competitiveness factors have shown
a steady decline for some years.

Amara


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov  1 14:18:01 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 07:18:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230908c34f49cf524f@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <200711011444.lA1Eiadj016750@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> 
> ... there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune
> now... Amara



Ja, well we are not.  We are not immune to worry about you.  We get the same
kinds of worries as when Keith was falsely imprisoned; worries that won't go
away until we know you are well and safe.

spike








From amara at amara.com  Thu Nov  1 15:36:14 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:36:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p06230900c34fa170dc39@[23.237.66.13]>

Spike:
>Amara, if or when it becomes necessary to raise a posse to ride out on a
>rescue Amara mission, do let us know when, where and how.

I need Italian practical help because time is slipping away from me like
a sieve.

Yesterday evening, I spent my time at the websites of Telecom Italia
(www.187.it) -fixed line, and Tele2 (www.tele2.it) -regular phone, trying
to learn how to cancel their services. There is nothing for 'disdetta
del sevizio'.

There are phone numbers that plug you into their help system, but only
if you call from the phone (my home) for which their service is
provided. If you do that, though, you get lost in an endless phone menu
system, nothing about 'disdetta del sevizio' that I can catch. My
friends tried from their homes and offices, but it doesn't work because
they must use my home phone.

I have written formal letters (in my best Italian)  giving my notice for
my departure, with contact addresses for their last bill and my
identification and customer numbers, which I'll send by registered
postal mail tomorrow (today is a holiday) to a general 'clienti
servizio' address.

But Telecom Italia is famous for all parts of their company not speaking
to each other (and  you know they tend to give fax numbers to their
customers that don't work), and where do I physically send the Tele2
modem from their past DSL service that didn't work? There doesn't exist
any physical Tele2 service centers in Italy, as far as I can tell.
(If someone can find for me an address of a physical Tele2 office in
Italy, that would help me alot.)

Amara


From scerir at libero.it  Thu Nov  1 16:42:09 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:42:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
References: <p06230900c34fa170dc39@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <003a01c81ca6$26b89900$67b81f97@archimede>

> where do I physically send the Tele2
> modem from their past DSL service
> that didn't work? There doesn't exist
> any physical Tele2 service centers in Italy,

write down an email to this address here below

IT-ADSLsupport at tele2.com

saying (specifically about the modem) ....


Spett.
Tele2 Italia S.p.A.
Casella Postale 1022
88046 San Pietro Lametino (CZ)

Si prega prendere nota che ho dato,
in data odierna, a mezzo lettera raccomandata,
formale disdetta dal contratto in essere
(here details about your specific contratto,
phone number, voice, adsl, whatever).

Dovendo lasciare, a breve, la mia attuale
residenza in Italia, per trasferirmi
all'estero, si prega di comunicarmi, via
email, con la maggior sollecitudine possibile,
il luogo - il pi? vicino al mio presente domicilio -
dove io possa riconsegnare l'apparecchio modem
DSL a suo tempo noleggiatomi da Tele2.

Signature   .............

present address in Frascati

future address in US

email .........






From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 16:45:02 2007
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:45:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nano radio!
Message-ID: <9b9887c80711010945l688d2838j247a446289451460@mail.gmail.com>

 This is amazing.  What next?  More stations, I guess.

Make way for the real "nanopod" and make room in the *Guinness Book of World
Records*. A team of researchers at Berkeley Lab and UC Berkeley has created
the first fully functional radio from a single carbon nanotube, which makes
it by several orders of magnitude the smallest radio ever made. "A single
carbon nanotube molecule serves simultaneously as all essential components
of a radio ? antenna, tunable band-pass filter, amplifier, and demodulator,"
said physicist *Alex Zettl*, who led the research. "Using carrier waves in
the commercially relevant 40-400 MHz range and both frequency and amplitude
modulation (FM and AM), we were able to demonstrate successful music and
voice reception." Go to

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-nanoradio.html

to read the full story, which includes video of sound (Star Wars theme)
recorded on the nanotube radio.

-- 
Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
1222 "B" Ashby Avenue
Berkeley, CA 94702
510.848.1007
www.hotlux.com/angel.htm

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane
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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  1 17:20:44 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience
In-Reply-To: <p06230904c34f1c6caf1b@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <599383.86496.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Amara,
maybe the burocracy is particular stupid in Italy.
But it is not much better in USA for example.
I can report equally horrible tales of my visits of the INS office in New Orleans. 
Also the Department of Motor Vehicle office in every US city is usually a hellish place. At least in Italy, as you said, the general mood among the people in queue is much warmer and friendly.
Howerver, there is not excuse for stupidity anywhere....


Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote: "Spike" :
>Ja. But the art of queuing should break down.  If there are many customers
>in line anywhere, the merchant needs to open additional registers.  If they
>haven't enough proles working the registers to keep the lines short, the
>customers will take their trade elsewhere, as they should.


Oh ye of little imagination, Spike! Queuing is much more than waiting in
the lines in the bank or at the supermarket. Italy's present
infrastructure has raised the queuing experience to a superb art form.

The most important queue that you'll learn about are the phone queues
for the governmental public services: police, customs, post offices, tax
office, airport lost luggage, taxis (!), ... I'm sure that they've
programmed their phone system so that you get a busy signal in the first
several times. Just when you've just set the speed re-dial on your phone
to keep trying, then you'll hear that same number only ring and ring and
no one answers. Now multiply that for several phone numbers which lead
into the same office. My workplace secretary and I lost 4 days in this
process, trying to locate real people at the Milan Italian customs
office, who were sitting on the box with my computer inside which I
desperately needed to do my job. On another occasion, I spent two days
in this procedure trying to get a status on my lost luggage which
contained materials that I needed to give a talk at a conference in
the next days.

Real line queues for governmental offices are designed to bring you back
to the same window multiple times initially, because those
offices/windows are only open two or three hours a day. It's not over
yet though, because usually there is a second or third office that you
need to visit next, also open two or three hours a day, or not at all for
some period, because the one clerk that knows that job is on holiday.

Another interesting queue can be seen at the Rome Termini train station.
There are 30 TV monitors scattered throughout the train station, all
showing simultaneously the same perfume advertisement, but only 3 large
displays for giving train timetable information. So in order to know on
which track your train leaves, you're in the center of the station in
front of one of those large displays. However, some trains, such as the
unimportant Rome Fiumicino airport train, leave from tracks that are at
least 400 meters away from the display which gives the  timetable
information. Moreover, the timetable information for the track number is
often given only 5 to 10 minutes before the train leaves. Here we see
the classic Italian phenomena: "Wait and Hurry Up".

The Fiumicino train is not the only artful queue in the vicinity of Rome
Fiumicino airport, the luggage coming off of the planes in the baggage
area is another fine example. You can usually find on which carousel
your luggage will appear, but if there are more planes than the eight
rows on the TV monitor, then it's off the display. The time you'll need
to wait is about 40 minutes anyway, so you might as well hang around
that little TV screen and wait until your desired row on the TV finally
appears. Then when you've arrived at the carousel to wait for your
luggage, your luggage is actually emerging on a different carousel.

Before we leave the airport, one last queue I should mention is the one
that develops when the computers that are used to tag luggage with their
airport routing information go down. The solution from the counter personnel
is to handwrite the routing information on sticky white pieces of paper.
You can now guess at the result. The result is that everyone on this
flight during the time that the computers went down did not receive
their luggage at their final destination.

Next, let's go to the post office. Post offices in Italy are not usually
used to mail things, they are used instead to pay one's bills. So there
are several (hopefully) open windows with clerks ready to take your
money for your electricity bill, and always just one window available to
mail your letters. I suppose that the some (or many) of some (or many)
Italians' innate drive to pile up at the front of a queue prompted some
persons to initiate a new queuing system a few years ago, however I'm
not sure that post offices are the appropriate place where such systems
are needed. I think that such training could be better used at car
traffic lights, where the front of the line of cars waiting to turn left
always contains two or more cars gunning their engine to make the break
across the intersection when the light changes, even if that lane can
fit only one-half of a car.

The post office queuing system begins when you punch a button at a
wobbly lime-green machine near the front of the office to receive a
number. Then the customer waits and looks at an LED display in the
corner of the post office which list window numbers and queuing ticket
numbers to guide you to the proper window in an orderly fashion. However,
the time at the post office remains the same because the same queue is
only rearranged, not shortened in any way, which is one way to
experience the old adage: "Tutto deve cambiare perch? nulla cambi"
(everything must change so that nothing will truly change)

And sometimes the post office clerks are new or in a particularly perky
mood that day. He might sit there pushing the button increasing the
queuing number for the window, but it has no correspondence with any
customer or window. He's just having a bit of fun, you see, and why
wouldn't you? Being a postal clerk is a boring job. Your queuing
experience doesn't end there, though. When you arrive at the window
to pick up your package, then you can bet that they will not be able
to find your package and you will need to return to the post office
one or two more times.

Now while the above queues are frustrating and cold-hearted, the queue
at one's local medico office is designed to bring out the best of
Italy's warm and cozy culture. There are no electronic queuing systems.
Instead when you enter a waiting room, the first thing you must ask is
'ultima persona?'. Once you know who is the last person in the queue of
people in that waiting room, then your task for the next hour is simply
to be fixated on that person; when he/she sees the doctor, then you know
that you are next. You see in this way, you immediately make a friend in
the waiting room, and more likely, you will have more attention to give
to the other people in the room, as well. So usually everyone in the room
are almost like family by the end of the hour.

So here I've given you just a small sample of the many creative ways
that queuing works in Italy. I hope that you're suitably enlightened
now.

Ciao,
Amara

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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  1 17:53:31 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:53:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230908c34f49cf524f@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <645755.51809.qm@web31311.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Amara, I'm not sure how good is your Italian, but if you need help with Italian translations of documents or letter, let me know....


Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote: Spike:
>Such an exciting and challenging road thru life you have chosen, ja?

I'm a magnet: When I entered this country with a heart full of love and
good intentions, it began five years of everything that could go wrong,
did go wrong.

Now I'm five years older. genes dead, all of my savings for buying
property gone, but I succeeded to save my science, somehow, because I
could do nothing else in that comedy-tragedy. I would have preferred
much more to have been able to save the other things, though. But if I
left in the first year, not trusting anybody and without trying,
I wouldn't have been me, right?

The large theft of my identity at the end was a kind of Italian toast to
Amara, there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune
now.


Amara

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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  1 17:40:14 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:40:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience
In-Reply-To: <p06230906c34f39216995@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <741229.4611.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Amara is very right here. Somebody estimated that about 30 percent of all the art in the world is in Italy. And the landscape, the culture, the people, the food are just amazing.......
So Eliezer, you will be a very incomplete human or transhuman if you are not visiting Italy soon or later....
and all the silly problems are tractable with patience and a philosophical approach...
the thing that I most agree with Amara is that researchers in Italy are paid nothing, and they don't get much support from their government.
That is enough to justify leaving if you work in science. 
Everything else is more than compensated by the beauty of the place and the depth of the people.
When I go to Italy and meet my friends, for example, very quickly we go in amazing conversations, they have questions about US, the people, the places, they listen, they ask relevant questions.
When I tell people in the US that I'm Italian, they don't really care, and at most they make some silly remarks about red sauce or white sauce, mafia or things like that. They barely know where Italy is, even if somebody once asked me if Italy was in Europe.
The average newpaper in Italy, is at least at the level of the New York Times.
The average italian news stand has wonderful magazine about art, science, culture that people actually read.
Even if goverment doesn't use properly its resources to support science, the people have reverence for knowledge and culture in general.
The main problem is corruption and how resources are used. Italy is one of the strongest economies in the world and somehow the money is channelled in the wrong direction.
There are a lot of positive forces though and hopefully change will come soon.
Singularity will change everything, everywhere, anywhere right?




Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote: Eliezer, Italy has a large percentage of the world's art.. For ex. If any
of those sculptures on a random street corner in Rome were moved to the US,
then the US local art curators would put glass around it and charge you
an arm and a leg to see it. In Italy, such art that is all over the
cities is free to see and for everybody. It will be rare to experience
such a phenomenon anyplace else, and it is an absolutely gorgeous place
to visit. When I decided to move to Italy, it was not only because I fell
in love with Serafino, it was because I thought that Italy was so beautiful
and so interesting. So I do  suggest if you have an opportunity, to go.
IF you have time, because time _does_ run differently in a cultural sense.

Most of what I listed is what people who live in Italy must experience
in daily life with the government bureaucracies. Not visitors; with the
exception of the airport and public transportation (that's not easy
either).

I think that Rome Fiumicino generally is an awful airport, but that is
partly slanted to my necessarily heavy use.. I don't care how they might
change its appearance (which occasionally happens); I need it to
function properly because all of my scientific colleagues are located
outside of Italy. In the last 3-4 years I've been traveling for 1/3 of
every month, which means that I've seen and experienced everything
possible that can and does go wrong there. Italy's overall
transportation system is not generally designed for ease of use and
comfort for the passenger, so that's the main point that the visitor
needs to be aware about.

Amara

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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Nov  1 18:51:31 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:51:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the DMV experience
In-Reply-To: <599383.86496.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <p06230904c34f1c6caf1b@[23.237.66.13]>
	<599383.86496.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071101134911.022c22b8@satx.rr.com>

At 10:20 AM 11/1/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote:
>
>Also the Department of Motor Vehicle office in every US city is 
>usually a hellish place.

In the mildly amusing new TV show REAPER, this is *literally* the 
case. DMV offices are portals to Hell, with Satanic staff.

Damien Broderick


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Nov  1 19:07:28 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:07:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the DMV experience
Message-ID: <380-22007114119728349@M2W012.mail2web.com>


At 10:20 AM 11/1/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote:

>Also the Department of Motor Vehicle office in every US city is 
>usually a hellish place.

The only DMV office that I have experienced that has been pleasant,
receptive and informative is in downtown Austin. I think this must be why
Austin is weird and the slogan "Keep Austin Weird" has real meaning.

Natasha

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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Nov  1 21:02:06 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:02:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200711011444.lA1Eiadj016750@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <p06230908c34f49cf524f@[23.237.66.13]>
	<200711011444.lA1Eiadj016750@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <1193950879_22347@S4.cableone.net>

At 07:18 AM 11/1/2007, you wrote:
> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> >
> > ... there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune
> > now... Amara
>
>Ja, well we are not.  We are not immune to worry about you.  We get the same
>kinds of worries as when Keith was falsely imprisoned; worries that won't go
>away until we know you are well and safe.

There is no such condition this side of the singularity, and probably 
not the other side either.

Keith 


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov  2 04:19:44 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:19:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning translations
In-Reply-To: <003a01c81ca6$26b89900$67b81f97@archimede>
Message-ID: <200711020419.lA24Jrlb006684@andromeda.ziaspace.com>



> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir
...
> write down an email to this address here below...


I took my baby to the doctor last night at Stanford.  He is better now
thanks (the baby I mean, not the doctor).  In the waiting room there was a
poster that offered free translator services.  It was written in twenty
languages, eight of which were European languages.  I noticed that of those
eight, Italian was the one that was easiest for English-only speakers to
understand.  Perhaps it is because English uses a number of Latin-based
words.  

For instance, one can almost get the drift of Italian, by looking at the
apparent common Latin base, and thus roughly translate.  Using my method on
scerir's passage, for instance, yields the following:


> Si prega prendere nota che ho dato,

Yes, the noted Communist revolutionary Guevara was dating a harlot who was
pretending to be pregnant...

> in data odierna, a mezzo lettera raccomandata,

...the data stinks, but a mess of letters recommend that...

> formale disdetta dal contratto in essere

...the formerly male person who is opposed to rats was insincere.

> Dovendo lasciare, a breve, la mia attuale residenza in Italia...

The lascivious dove was short, but the actress Farrow actually resides in
Italy... 

> per trasferirmi all'estero, si prega di comunicarmi via email...

...She transferred all her female hormones, yes, and she communicates her
Karma (plural) thru email...

> con la maggior sollecitudine possibile, 

...with the finest possible selection of fly larvae. 

> il luogo - il pi? vicino al mio presente domicilio -

...she was sick, very sick in the vicinity of my present house! (ewwww)

> dove io possa riconsegnare l'apparecchio modem DSL a suo tempo

...Jupiter's volcanic satellite has modems with fast DSL...

> noleggiatomi da Tele2.

...but I have no legs with which to escape the atomic weapons, so I watch
the Teletubbies on channel 2.



So you see, this isn't a literal translation of course, but with my
paraphrase you get the general drift of the passage.  All this I can do,
without actually studying Italian for a single day, not a minute!  It is
unclear why scerir would suggest sending this particular message to the
Italian bureaucrats, but he knows them better than I do.  Perhaps it is some
kind of code the insiders use to get things done quickly.  

In any case, I should apply for a job at the Italian embassy as a
translator.  Nations would get along so much better if they use my system
for paraphrasing diplomatic messages.

spike


'
'

{8^]

'
'



From scerir at libero.it  Fri Nov  2 07:15:18 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:15:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandoning translations
References: <200711020419.lA24Jrlb006684@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c81d20$205d6610$2fba1f97@archimede>

Spike:
So you see, this isn't a literal translation of course, 
but with my paraphrase you get the general drift 
of the passage.  

# :-)

It is unclear why scerir would suggest sending 
this particular message to the Italian bureaucrats, 
but he knows them better than I do.  Perhaps it is some
kind of code the insiders use to get things done quickly.

# Some kind of code, exactly. But the problem
now is: what kind of code do they use in their
response? In general they like to use nonsense,
as a code. We'll see (but not so soon, I suppose).   



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov  2 12:06:00 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:06:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience
In-Reply-To: <p06230904c34f1c6caf1b@23.237.66.13>
References: <p06230904c34f1c6caf1b@23.237.66.13>
Message-ID: <580930c20711020506m2d1e9d83jcd1a4fa9f8b76203@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/07, Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
> Oh ye of little imagination, Spike! Queuing is much more than waiting in
> the lines in the bank or at the supermarket. Italy's present
> infrastructure has raised the queuing experience to a superb art form.

Come on. Amara, you should know better.

Italian queues are just a tactful way to test your connectedness and
creativity and slyness and Darwinian reflexes, so that due priority
can be accorded to people exhibiting those traits. No self-respecting
Italian would accept to wait in a queue unless and until all
reasonable and unreasonable avoidance measures have been exhausted.
:-)

As far as Telecom is concerned, there again I am surprised that you
have not even taken into consideration the obvious option, that is
simply... disappearing. It is their problem, not yours, if terminating
contracts is made too complicate for people to bother.

Stefano Vaj

From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Nov  2 13:00:22 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 06:00:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Translating with abandon
In-Reply-To: <000a01c81d20$205d6610$2fba1f97@archimede>
References: <200711020419.lA24Jrlb006684@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<000a01c81d20$205d6610$2fba1f97@archimede>
Message-ID: <1194008376_15451@S3.cableone.net>

You might be amused:

"He also embattled metal chlorate and attempted to ingest it in the 
concoct of explosive as a unreal for saltpetre."

Keith


From amara at amara.com  Fri Nov  2 14:34:07 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:34:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope - the queuing experience
Message-ID: <p06230902c350e241bea5@[150.146.134.133]>

Stefano Vaj stefano.vaj at gmail.com :
>Italian queues are just a tactful way to test your connectedness and
>creativity and slyness and Darwinian reflexes, so that due priority
>can be accorded to people exhibiting those traits. No self-respecting
>Italian would accept to wait in a queue unless and until all
>reasonable and unreasonable avoidance measures have been exhausted.
>:-)

This is one of those Latin versus Anglo things...

And obviously my connectedness to my Italian Social Network is is not as
deep and as widespread as a native-born Italian (if you could have
manufactured a pill that would allow me to be awake during my sleeping
hours between 2am and 7am to have time for this task) because my Italian
Working Network became very expensive (i.e.. more than my salary
allowed) and I needed to cultivate my connectedness to my NONItalian
Network to have _some_ resources to pay my rent and to save my science.
Capisci?

A repost...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:55:36 +0200
From: Amara Graps <amara at amara.com>
Subject: [wta-talk]  Apple drives posthuman evolution
To: wta-talk at transhumanism.org
Message-ID: <p06230900c2e74705490a@[23.237.66.13]>

Anders:
>British Gas and the proud traditions of British plumbing is driving my
>posthuman evolution towards arctic adaptation. No hot water for a month
>at home. I'd love to have a control for my skin sensitivity so I could
>turn off the cold receptors while showering. Ideally, we should have a
>spinal "firewall" that allows us to temporarily filter out pain or other
>irritating stimuli (for safety, it could both have a timer and never
>work 100%). In the meantime I'm training my willpower instead.

I _love_ visiting my friends (and hotel rooms) because they have bathrooms
that work... !

And they have nonSORBS-blacklisted Internet.

And telephones that don't ring three times throughout the day and night
and then stop.

And a gas company that doesn't send them threatening letters demanding
payment for six years before they moved in.

And Postal Mail that not only _arrives_, but arrives _regularly_.

Oh Anders, I have hot water, and you're welcome to use it. But you'll
need to exercise your posthuman dexterity and ingenuity to balance the
broken shower head that my landlord doesn't wish to fix.

Dear Universe, I thank you for Telecom Italia, Italgas, Fastweb, the
Questura, my landlords, and the post office clerks who are driving my
posthuman sensitivities, service department communication skills, bank
account, and above all, my _patience_ to be a much stronger posthuman
to build our Bright and Wonderful Future.   :-)

Ciao,
Amara

-------------------------------------------------------------

From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Nov  2 16:22:04 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:22:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Story "Tunnel of Love"
Message-ID: <1194020478_23118@S3.cableone.net>


To my surprise, this story posted.

>http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301
Keith 


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Nov  2 15:38:11 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:38:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Washoe's life ends
Message-ID: <200711021538.lA2FcE4v014033@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com>

This is an endearing story about Washoe who, like Coco, could 
communicate with sign language.  (Also a small but interesting 
comment about Chomsky's and Pinker's views on sign language.)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/31/signing.chimp.dies.ap/index.html


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
PhD Candidate,  Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty 
of Technology,
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics,
University of Plymouth, UK
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
<http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller


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From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Nov  2 15:52:47 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:52:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Transhuman Computation: Your Collective
 Intelligence Required
In-Reply-To: <f1d9c15f0710292112x4082d427nf2c70378fe538b34@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <f1d9c15f0710292112x4082d427nf2c70378fe538b34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711021552.lA2Fqnet007416@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>

At 11:12 PM 10/29/2007, Andr?s

>First I would like to better understand what 
>Collective Intelligence is. How does it emerge 
>in biology, sociology, computer science, business and mass behavior?

This is a great project and I look forward to 
hearing about what you do with it.  It is not my 
field but if it were my research project,  I 
would find as much information on this topic as 
possible (googling is easy), and create a 
bibliography of references. Skim through the 
material, jot down notes on what relates to you 
questions. Then come up with a few  new more 
target questions that shows that you have some 
knowledge of the area.  That will help anyone 
responding to better address your concerns/questions/etc.

>And second and most important: How can it be harnessed?
>I would like to see examples on how it can be 
>harnessed. From bacterial colonies, web-services 
>and human computation, I would like for you to 
>share any resources, blogs, websites, books, 
>fiction or not, arts, anything you can remember or find.

Okay, will do in the immersive arts, etc.

Natasha



From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu Nov  1 19:21:53 2007
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 11:21:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Washoe's life ends
References: <200711021538.lA2FcE4v014033@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c81cbc$776f6e80$0300a8c0@Nano>

Aww, I just saw her in May. When I was a kid we always heard about her because there were people in Reno who had worked with her when she used to reside in the area many years before (before my time). 
When I visited the "Chimposium" here in WA I bought a painting that Washoe made. She did seem aged and a bit more to herself than the other chimps. 
Thanks for informing the list. I'm off today to catch a plane and go down to the nanotech "Unconference"! If any of you are attending, we'll see you soon! 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Natasha Vita-More 
  To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 7:38 AM
  Subject: [ExI] Washoe's life ends


  This is an endearing story about Washoe who, like Coco, could communicate with sign language.  (Also a small but interesting comment about Chomsky's and Pinker's views on sign language.)

  http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/31/signing.chimp.dies.ap/index.html



    Natasha Vita-More 
    PhD Candidate,  Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, 
    School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, 
    University of Plymouth, UK 
    Transhumanist Arts & Culture 
    Thinking About the Future 


    If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller





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From amara at amara.com  Fri Nov  2 21:29:16 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 22:29:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing
 experience)
Message-ID: <p06230900c3514449ec03@[150.146.134.133]>

Replying to: giovanni santost <santostasigio at yahoo.com>
Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:40:14 -0700 (PDT)

Caveat: I'm passionate about books and reading. My second and third
teenage jobs were working in bookstores. In my 20s and 30s, until I moved
to Europe in 1998, I spent a few hours per week browsing in bookstores.
My personal ~1100 volume library fills half of an international shipping
container. Therefore I am sensitive to the reading habits of the people
in the places (and countries) where I have spent time and lived.

In a country as large as the US, you should know that there are strong
regional differences, and within those regions, more variations as well.
For example, the San Francisco Bay area, (my home for 14 years) has a
high density of readers and book stores, and within that area, Berkeley
probably has near the highest density of bookstores in the world. These
types of pockets of readers might look unusual compared to the rest of
the U.S. Also, we both know that education and high reading habits are
correlated.

Generally, the US is not a country of readers. While Italy, generally,
has more readers (normalized to the population) than the US, Italy is
not a country of readers compared to most of the other EU countries.
Italy's reading habits are more similar to Poland, Serbia, Slovakia,
Croatia.

SOME STATISTICS

---------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3613

In the U.S.
Percentage polled who read 1 to 5 books in the last year: 30%
6 to 15 books: 23%
More than 15 books: 20%

---------------------------------------------------------

MEASURE OF READING HABITS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA

In the following UNESCO data,

Book Production
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch11/11.12.xls

I added a column of the population between the ages of 25 and 64
from:

Population data
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch1/1.1.xls

and divided the book production by the number of people who are likely
to be reading. No illiteracy rates have been factored in. This number
represents a rough measure of the reading habits of readers in that
country, reading material published in their own language. Some day in
the future I would like to further distinguish the reading material
in terms of social sciences, pure and applied sciences, and literature
and arts. And I didn't finish filling in (population values) for the
Commonwealth of Independent States.

Iceland is high because they are not only prolific book publishers and
readers, but their population is also tiny.

The last column is my Rough Measure Of 'Reading Habits' in that Country.

                       #published
                       book titles   Pop(25-64)  #Bks/Pop    (*1E3)
                                                 (25-64)    MEASURE
European Union:
      Austria        a       8 056    4 559 976   0.00177   1.76668
      Denmark               14 455    2 950 310   0.00490   4.89948
      Finland               13 173    2 874 152   0.00458   4.58326
      France                39 083   30 779 424   0.00127   1.26978
      Germany        a      71 515   46 445 344   0.00154   1.53977
      Greece         b       4 067    5 637 830   0.00072   0.72138
      Italy                 32 365   32 392 640   0.00100   0.99915 <--
      Portugal       b       8 331    5 499 773   0.00151   1.51479
      Spain                 59 174   21 984 963   0.00269   2.69157
      Sweden         c      12 547    4 705 984   0.00267   2.66618
      United Kingdom c     110 965   31 849 788   0.00348   3.48401
Other Western Europe:
      Cyprus                   931      288 507   0.00323   3.22696
      Iceland        c       1 796      143 120   0.01255  12.54889
      Malta          c         237      208 842   0.00113   1.13483
      Monaco         d          70       19 200   0.00365   3.64583
      Norway                 4 985    2 392 314   0.00208   2.08376
      Switzerland           18 273    4 035 791   0.00453   4.52774
      Turkey                 2 920   31 101 612   0.00009   0.09389
Central and Eastern Europe:
      Bulgaria               4 971    4 293 864   0.00116   1.15770
      Croatia                2 309    2 365 188   0.00098   0.97624
      Czech Republic        12 551    5 503 813   0.00228   2.28042
      Estonia                3 265      714 788   0.00457   4.56779
      Hungary               10 352    5 501 250   0.00188   1.88175
      Latvia                 2 178    1 248 150   0.00174   1.74498
      Lithuania              4 097    1 811 934   0.00226   2.26112
      Poland                19 192   20 131 961   0.00095   0.95331
      Romania                7 874   11 809 227   0.00067   0.66677
      Serbia and Monta       5 367    5 485 626   0.00098   0.97838
      Slovakia               3 153    2 814 102   0.00112   1.12043
      Slovenia               3 450    1 111 536   0.00310   3.10381
      The former Yugosl        733    1 039 543   0.00071   0.70512
Commonwealth of Independent States:
      Armenia                  516
      Azerbaijan     c         444
      Belarus        c       6 073
      Georgia                  697
      Kazakhstan             1 223
      Kyrgyzstan     c         420
      Republic of Moldo      1 166
      Russian Federata      36 237
      Tajikistan     b         150
      Ukraine                6 282
      Uzbekistan     a       1 003
North America:
      Canada                22 94117 126 127   0.00134   1.33953
      United States  a      68 175149 233 57   0.00046   0.45683  <--
Other member countries:
      Israel         c       1 969 2792404.8   0.00071   0.70513

a/ Data for 1996    c/ Data for 1998
b/ Data for 1997    d/ Data for 2000


---------------------------------------------------------


>The average newpaper in Italy, is at least at the level of the New York
>Times.

I don't agree. And how often does the average Italian reader read the
whole average Italian newspaper? From all of my time spent on trains and
buses and in public places, I've observed the average reader is reading
mostly the sports section.

>The average italian news stand has wonderful magazine about art,
>science, culture that people actually read.

Science?

Did I miss more than le Scienze? I hope that that I did. le Scienze
is a small extraction (mostly) of Scientific American with a too large
proportion of advertisements (lately, it seems like half).

The statistics in my tables above is reading material published in the
country's own language. I don't have statistics to give for reading
material published in other languages, but I can comment, with my
personal experience (anecdotes).

A train or airport periodical (magazine) shop in a random place in Italy
contains an order of magnitude less material in volume, range of
subjects and languages than a random periodical shop in Germany,
Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands (which is oddly not in UNESCO's
database),...

I always have a sense that I don't have any oxygen when I'm in an
Italian magazine stand, while I feel quite at home in a Switzerland
magazine stand. But then, remember, I'm skewed.


---------------------------------------------------------

OTHER USEFUL STATISTICS
Trends in Europe and North America

Researchers per Inhabitants
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.11.xls

Total Expenditure on Education as a % of GDP
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.9.xls


Expenditure on Research and Development, % of GDP
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.12.xls
(I've seen more recent stats somewhere, Italy is below 1.0 now, Spain
surpassed Italy a few years ago)


Ciao,
Amara


From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  2 22:15:02 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:15:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the
	queuing experience)
In-Reply-To: <p06230900c3514449ec03@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Amara,
  while I really appreciate the statistics you are showing us, I'm kind of skeptical about such measures as I was after reading the ones you gave for economics.
  For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems impossible that several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" than Italy. What is really meant with that? Their measures are just a way to rationalize something that is quite complicated (as any social phenomenon) to quantify.
   The size of the economy is considered in the analysis as I understand it but I think it doesn't have the right weight. 
  I'm not an economist but the list seems quite non-sensical to me.
  How is possible that Switzerland is at the second place? With an rating almost as good as US?
  It seems that the Economic  Forum uses "opinions" of businessmen to assess the measures, not very scientific way to do things.
   
  About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every European (or anybody from anywhere else)  that comes to US immediately notices  how uneducated people in general are. Now, I know this is a generalization, but it is a pretty valid one. I know there are exceptional minds and intellectual in this country, but in general even well educated people are educated in a very narrow field and they are pretty unaware of everything else, from history to geography, from literature to art. 
  The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely well rounded. You can talk about politics with them, you can discuss current events in the light of history and past events, they mention philosophers and thinkers from ancient Greece and ninenteen century Germany when they want to make a point, and so on.
  I miss that...
  And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read that book.
  How likely is that to happen in the US (not many buses here anyway...)?
   
   
   
   
   
   
  

Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
  Replying to: giovanni santost 
Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:40:14 -0700 (PDT)

Caveat: I'm passionate about books and reading. My second and third
teenage jobs were working in bookstores. In my 20s and 30s, until I moved
to Europe in 1998, I spent a few hours per week browsing in bookstores.
My personal ~1100 volume library fills half of an international shipping
container. Therefore I am sensitive to the reading habits of the people
in the places (and countries) where I have spent time and lived.

In a country as large as the US, you should know that there are strong
regional differences, and within those regions, more variations as well.
For example, the San Francisco Bay area, (my home for 14 years) has a
high density of readers and book stores, and within that area, Berkeley
probably has near the highest density of bookstores in the world. These
types of pockets of readers might look unusual compared to the rest of
the U.S. Also, we both know that education and high reading habits are
correlated.

Generally, the US is not a country of readers. While Italy, generally,
has more readers (normalized to the population) than the US, Italy is
not a country of readers compared to most of the other EU countries.
Italy's reading habits are more similar to Poland, Serbia, Slovakia,
Croatia.

SOME STATISTICS

---------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3613

In the U.S.
Percentage polled who read 1 to 5 books in the last year: 30%
6 to 15 books: 23%
More than 15 books: 20%

---------------------------------------------------------

MEASURE OF READING HABITS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA

In the following UNESCO data,

Book Production
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch11/11.12.xls

I added a column of the population between the ages of 25 and 64
from:

Population data
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch1/1.1.xls

and divided the book production by the number of people who are likely
to be reading. No illiteracy rates have been factored in. This number
represents a rough measure of the reading habits of readers in that
country, reading material published in their own language. Some day in
the future I would like to further distinguish the reading material
in terms of social sciences, pure and applied sciences, and literature
and arts. And I didn't finish filling in (population values) for the
Commonwealth of Independent States.

Iceland is high because they are not only prolific book publishers and
readers, but their population is also tiny.

The last column is my Rough Measure Of 'Reading Habits' in that Country.

#published
book titles Pop(25-64) #Bks/Pop (*1E3)
(25-64) MEASURE
European Union:
Austria a 8 056 4 559 976 0.00177 1.76668
Denmark 14 455 2 950 310 0.00490 4.89948
Finland 13 173 2 874 152 0.00458 4.58326
France 39 083 30 779 424 0.00127 1.26978
Germany a 71 515 46 445 344 0.00154 1.53977
Greece b 4 067 5 637 830 0.00072 0.72138
Italy 32 365 32 392 640 0.00100 0.99915 <--
Portugal b 8 331 5 499 773 0.00151 1.51479
Spain 59 174 21 984 963 0.00269 2.69157
Sweden c 12 547 4 705 984 0.00267 2.66618
United Kingdom c 110 965 31 849 788 0.00348 3.48401
Other Western Europe:
Cyprus 931 288 507 0.00323 3.22696
Iceland c 1 796 143 120 0.01255 12.54889
Malta c 237 208 842 0.00113 1.13483
Monaco d 70 19 200 0.00365 3.64583
Norway 4 985 2 392 314 0.00208 2.08376
Switzerland 18 273 4 035 791 0.00453 4.52774
Turkey 2 920 31 101 612 0.00009 0.09389
Central and Eastern Europe:
Bulgaria 4 971 4 293 864 0.00116 1.15770
Croatia 2 309 2 365 188 0.00098 0.97624
Czech Republic 12 551 5 503 813 0.00228 2.28042
Estonia 3 265 714 788 0.00457 4.56779
Hungary 10 352 5 501 250 0.00188 1.88175
Latvia 2 178 1 248 150 0.00174 1.74498
Lithuania 4 097 1 811 934 0.00226 2.26112
Poland 19 192 20 131 961 0.00095 0.95331
Romania 7 874 11 809 227 0.00067 0.66677
Serbia and Monta 5 367 5 485 626 0.00098 0.97838
Slovakia 3 153 2 814 102 0.00112 1.12043
Slovenia 3 450 1 111 536 0.00310 3.10381
The former Yugosl 733 1 039 543 0.00071 0.70512
Commonwealth of Independent States:
Armenia 516
Azerbaijan c 444
Belarus c 6 073
Georgia 697
Kazakhstan 1 223
Kyrgyzstan c 420
Republic of Moldo 1 166
Russian Federata 36 237
Tajikistan b 150
Ukraine 6 282
Uzbekistan a 1 003
North America:
Canada 22 94117 126 127 0.00134 1.33953
United States a 68 175149 233 57 0.00046 0.45683 <--
Other member countries:
Israel c 1 969 2792404.8 0.00071 0.70513

a/ Data for 1996 c/ Data for 1998
b/ Data for 1997 d/ Data for 2000


---------------------------------------------------------


>The average newpaper in Italy, is at least at the level of the New York
>Times.

I don't agree. And how often does the average Italian reader read the
whole average Italian newspaper? From all of my time spent on trains and
buses and in public places, I've observed the average reader is reading
mostly the sports section.

>The average italian news stand has wonderful magazine about art,
>science, culture that people actually read.

Science?

Did I miss more than le Scienze? I hope that that I did. le Scienze
is a small extraction (mostly) of Scientific American with a too large
proportion of advertisements (lately, it seems like half).

The statistics in my tables above is reading material published in the
country's own language. I don't have statistics to give for reading
material published in other languages, but I can comment, with my
personal experience (anecdotes).

A train or airport periodical (magazine) shop in a random place in Italy
contains an order of magnitude less material in volume, range of
subjects and languages than a random periodical shop in Germany,
Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands (which is oddly not in UNESCO's
database),...

I always have a sense that I don't have any oxygen when I'm in an
Italian magazine stand, while I feel quite at home in a Switzerland
magazine stand. But then, remember, I'm skewed.


---------------------------------------------------------

OTHER USEFUL STATISTICS
Trends in Europe and North America

Researchers per Inhabitants
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.11.xls

Total Expenditure on Education as a % of GDP
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.9.xls


Expenditure on Research and Development, % of GDP
http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.12.xls
(I've seen more recent stats somewhere, Italy is below 1.0 now, Spain
surpassed Italy a few years ago)


Ciao,
Amara

_______________________________________________
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Nov  2 23:39:27 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:39:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits
In-Reply-To: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <p06230900c3514449ec03@[150.146.134.133]>
	<924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com>

At 03:15 PM 11/2/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote:

>And about the common people [in Italy], well one day I was on a bus 
>with a book of Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while 
>I was holding for my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) 
>and said that he read that book.

Well, that might certainly be true of plenty of taxi drivers as well.

My wife drove a bus (before she became a law professor, a farmer, a 
businesswoman, etc), I was a tram conductor (back before Melbourne's 
trams were fitted ruinously with ticket machines that most people 
ignore) as was a woman I know with an advanced degree in chemistry 
who went on to edit educational books; I know science fiction fans 
who work for the railways in Australia--one as a shunter, one (a 
woman) as an inspector--who are as well-read and quirky as anyone 
you're likely to meet. The common people are often surprisingly 
uncommon. But I'm sure you know that. :)

Damien Broderick



From kazvorpal at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 00:49:00 2007
From: kazvorpal at yahoo.com (KAZ)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:49:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the
	queuing experience)
Message-ID: <738370.4118.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ---- 
From: giovanni santost <santostasigio at yahoo.com> 
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:15:02 PM 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing experience) 

> while I really appreciate the statistics you are showing us, I'm kind of skeptical about 
> such measures as I was after reading the ones you gave for economics. 
> For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems impossible that 
> several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" than Italy. 

As much as those statistics are desperately intended to make socialist countries look less pathetic, the Italy scenario is quite plausible. They have an extremely interventionist socialist government, and are bordering on third world in the "peasant" way much of their populace lives and economy runs.

> About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me 
> every European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US 
> immediately notices how uneducated people in general are. 

This isn't terribly surprising, because despite otherwise being more socialist, many European countries are less socialist in their education systems. They generally give parents some choice in where their kids are educated, for example, and even sometimes offer the vouchers that socialists in the US oppose.

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 01:23:48 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 02:23:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com>
References: <p06230900c3514449ec03@150.146.134.133>
	<924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20711021823l352d4efdoa38b5cdbe00c9e09@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/07, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> I know science fiction fans
> who work for the railways in Australia... The common people are often surprisingly
uncommon.

Why, wasn't there a not-so-common Rand's heroine who worked for a
railway company? :-)

Stefano Vaj

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Nov  3 01:52:43 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:52:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits
In-Reply-To: <580930c20711021823l352d4efdoa38b5cdbe00c9e09@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06230900c3514449ec03@150.146.134.133>
	<924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20711021823l352d4efdoa38b5cdbe00c9e09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102205106.025ff988@satx.rr.com>

At 02:23 AM 11/3/2007 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> > I know science fiction fans who work for the railways in Australia...
>
>Why, wasn't there a not-so-common Rand's heroine who worked for a
>railway company? :-)

Very few of those I know owned them, though. Or even airlines. Only 
the plane or two. :)

Damien Broderick 


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov  3 03:34:40 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:34:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of giovanni santost
Subject: Re: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the
queuing experience)

... said that he read that book.  How likely is that to happen in the US...


Granted, not very likely.


... (not many buses here anyway...)?


Ja most US places are not well suited for buses.  The environmentalists were
pushing them for a long time, but anyone with eyes could daily witness huge
Diesel buses belching black clouds of possibly carcinogenic choking carbon
particulates, chugging around the valley with three or four apes aboard.
The gasoline powered Detroit V8s, each hauling a single ape, are far more
environmentally friendly.

The solution to this paradox was your classic silicone valley: they bought a
number of fuel cell buses at a cost of 1.3 million dollars each.  These now
can be seen belching pristine clean white clouds of steam, chugging around
the valley with three or four apes aboard.

A far more environmentally agreeable solution has been staring at us for
some time, one I have suggested repeatedly: skip the buses, use the money to
build bicycle-only roads.  I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we can
do so safely.  I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but it
sits too low to be safe in traffic.

spike 
?
?
?
?


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 04:29:07 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:29:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Mega/astro-scale engineering mailing list announcement
Message-ID: <200711022329.07378.kanzure@gmail.com>


http://heybryan.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo

The discussion topic is: "Astroscale/megascale engineering technical 
discussion, i.e. Matrioshka/Jupiter/moon brains, Dyson spheres, laser 
stars, etc."

This is somewhat of a study group, to calculate feasabilities and poke 
fun at the vast imaginary structs, but news and other tidbits are OK. 

I'll be posting my thoughts on "laser stars" in a few days-- it's one 
particular application of the sun that could be used for signaling 
across galaxies with incredibly focused light. But would it be enough?

Sidenote: on the confirmation email, click the link. The mail server is 
acting up and the "reply to subscribe" feature is dead. I am new to 
list administration.

- Bryan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megastructure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroengineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megascale_engineering
http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/megascale_engineering.html

"I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more: more 
human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more 
suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more 
evolution, more life."

From amara at amara.com  Sat Nov  3 06:15:38 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 07:15:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Some Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the
 queuing experience)
Message-ID: <p06230905c351c030b464@[23.237.66.13]>

I slightly changed the subject line because I made a mistake with it,
too quick. Of course large parts of the world are still not included.
Also the statistics were from 1999, before all of the new EU member
countries entered. I should have rearranged the rows to include them
properly under the EU heading.

giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com :
>For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems 
>impossible that >several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" 
>than Italy.

Which? Its broken infrastructure does not make Italy a modern country.

When was the last time you tried to set up a business in Italy? I looked
into it, and ... it's not very different from trying to get a permesso di
soggiorno in terms of complexity and complications and time. And the
taxes are horrendous. I can set up a business in Latvia in a fraction
of the time I would need in Italy  and the taxes are considerably less.
In Estonia (one of the strongest business climates in Europe now),
I can do it in even less time.

I suggest to visit Turkey to see what an emerging new European country
looks like. Please notice the ease of public transportation in Istanbul,
the high energy business climate, the cleanliness. And I've spent a fair
bit of time in Switzerland (I almost went to Bern instead of deciding to
go go Boulder) in the last few years (have you?), I'm not surprised one
bit by Switzerland's rating.

>About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every
>European (or anybody from anywhere else)  that comes to US immediately
>notices  how uneducated people in general are.

I already commented on the heterogenity of reading habits in different
US places. (Have you ever lived in the SF Bay area?). My point was comparing
Italian reading habits to other Europeans. And everyone here knows
that I prefer to live in Europe much more than the US, and  why.

>The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely
>well rounded.

Of the rare few that exist, Yes. Remember too that PhDs
were not given in Italy until early-middle 1980s, so you will never
find an Italian PhD scientist above the age of 50 who earned their PhD
in Italy. And yes, I've already commented some number of times here
and in the  wta list on Italian's education focus in the Classics.
(for example: 
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-June/035945.html)

>And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of
>Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for
>my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read
>that book.

The waiter serving my colleagues and I in Boulder knew the difference
between several models of string theory (and he wasn't a scientist).
But then I wouldn't have chosen that place (Boulder) to make this particular
big move (It's a recovery strategy from Italy) if I did not know already
very well the highly educated  level of the people in that town.
(I used to live there 25 years ago)

The typical Frascati, Italy scenario is the local 20s something person
who thinks that a truck driver is a more useful and interesting profession
than an  atmospheric scientist studying climatology.. I'm sure that he
could quote Augustus, but he wouldn't know the difference between...,
ok never mind,  that's  another story, and I don't have time.

Ciao,
Amara




From amara at amara.com  Sat Nov  3 06:40:34 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 07:40:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandon all buses
Message-ID: <p06230906c351c80a8b89@[23.237.66.13]>

Spike:
>skip the buses, use the money to
>build bicycle-only roads.  I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we can
>do so safely.  I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but it
>sits too low to be safe in traffic.

Which was another reason that decided to accept the Boulder job offer; I
can get back to my Heidelberg bicycle lifestyle that I've missed so much
in these last five years. The paths are everywhere (and the public
transportation system is a dream). I will never accept to live any place
again, where I cannot get around easily by bicycle!

Amara

From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Nov  3 08:54:17 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:54:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>

On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 08:34:40PM -0700, Spike wrote:

> Ja most US places are not well suited for buses.  The environmentalists were

It's not because of the places, though. It's because of the people.
Only lowest economics rungs would use a bus, so it's associated with
a social stigma. Worse still is walking (I remember being honked at
when I used to walk to work in SoCal).

> pushing them for a long time, but anyone with eyes could daily witness huge
> Diesel buses belching black clouds of possibly carcinogenic choking carbon

Of course all modern buses have particulate filters.
And speaking about buses:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_k8Y0SWU8PJM/Rym__7u6Z_I/AAAAAAAAACk/55XpSWglWoE/s1600-h/espacio+coches.jpg?

> particulates, chugging around the valley with three or four apes aboard.
> The gasoline powered Detroit V8s, each hauling a single ape, are far more
> environmentally friendly.

Apes staying at home and joining a virtual office would be even
more so.
 
> The solution to this paradox was your classic silicone valley: they bought a
> number of fuel cell buses at a cost of 1.3 million dollars each.  These now
> can be seen belching pristine clean white clouds of steam, chugging around
> the valley with three or four apes aboard.

It would take a redesign of the society to make them accept public transportation.
It would take many decades to a century to restructure suburbia.
 
> A far more environmentally agreeable solution has been staring at us for
> some time, one I have suggested repeatedly: skip the buses, use the money to
> build bicycle-only roads.  I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we can
> do so safely.  I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but it
> sits too low to be safe in traffic.

Bike lanes don't work in the U.S. for the same reason public transportation
doesn't work there. Most motorists won't expect you to be there, with the 
predictable result on your life span.

Much better idea is to move away from such places. 

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 08:32:23 2007
From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 01:32:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <783146.65563.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

i used to have a co-worker at costco with a b.s. in nuclear engineering.  I would ask him what he was doing there and he would just shrug his shoulders.  I just got back from a wedding reception and my faith in humanity feels renewed.  A better young couple i have not come across.  I hope they have a sense of humor regarding the book i gave them. Lol  john grigg

Damien Broderick wrote: 
> At 03:15 PM 11/2/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote:
>>And about the common people [in Italy], well one day I was on a bus 
>>with a book of Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while 
>>I was holding for my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) 
>>and said that he read that book.
> Well, that might certainly be true of plenty of taxi drivers as well.
> My wife drove a bus (before she became a law professor, a farmer, a 
> businesswoman, etc), I was a tram conductor (back before Melbourne's 
> trams were fitted ruinously with ticket machines that most people 
> ignore) as was a woman I know with an advanced degree in chemistry 
> who went on to edit educational books; I know science fiction fans 
> who work for the railways in Australia--one as a shunter, one (a 
> woman) as an inspector--who are as well-read and quirky as anyone 
> you're likely to meet. The common people are often surprisingly 
> uncommon. But I'm sure you know that. :)
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov  3 15:57:41 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:57:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <200711031557.lA3FvVf5018405@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
....
> > A far more environmentally agreeable solution has been staring at us for
> > some time, one I have suggested repeatedly: skip the buses, use the
> money to
> > build bicycle-only roads.  I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we
> can
> > do so safely.  I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but
> it
> > sits too low to be safe in traffic.
> 
> Bike lanes don't work in the U.S. for the same reason public
> transportation
> doesn't work there. Most motorists won't expect you to be there, with the
> predictable result on your life span.
> 
> Much better idea is to move away from such places.
> 
> --
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org


Ja that is exactly my point.  I didn't mean bicycle lanes, those have been
tried and they are a failure, for people drive in them with their detroits
and slay bicycilists.  Oddly enough, under many circumstances it is legal to
drive in the bike lanes, and it is certainly hazardous to cyclists.  

What I meant was building special bicycle and pedestrian roads, ones that
are separated by a hard barrier from all motorized traffic.  We have exactly
one of those going in now, along the 237 corridor that leads from San Jose
to the Yahoo headquarters next to Lockheed Sunnyvale.  I recognize it is
costly to route those things, but people will use them for low-profile
bikes, which really can only be used if there are specialized bike roads.
The recumbents will encourage those who cannot or will not ride standard
configured bicycles because the standard seat is too hard on the ass.

spike






From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 17:05:39 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 13:05:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>
References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/07, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> > particulates, chugging around the valley with three or four apes aboard.
> > The gasoline powered Detroit V8s, each hauling a single ape, are far more
> > environmentally friendly.
>
> Apes staying at home and joining a virtual office would be even
> more so.

I wish the government would incentivize business to allow this where
possible.  My personal preference to do so carries so little weight
that my employer has no reason to comply, but a monetary incentive
(tax break/etc) would induce far greater motivation.

Of course I would have to be willing to spend the money I save
elsewhere in the economy else the government risks destabilizing the
status quo - which is highly dependent on energy from dead dinos.

From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Nov  3 17:15:47 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:15:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <200711031557.lA3FvVf5018405@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>
	<200711031557.lA3FvVf5018405@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20071103171547.GG4005@leitl.org>

On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 08:57:41AM -0700, Spike wrote:

> What I meant was building special bicycle and pedestrian roads, ones that
> are separated by a hard barrier from all motorized traffic.  We have exactly

Most bike roads here are that, being separated from the main road
by granite curbs, and having specific markings and signs to draw
a separatrix between pedestrians and cyclists. This is expensive
to retrofit (pedestrians are restricted to few major cities in the US), 
and you're still roadkill candidate whenever you cross ways with
motorists, if the motorists are not properly trained to expect bikers
coming from any direction. My commute is ~80% through a forest on a dirt road,
I do wear a brain bucket, but the likeliest way to take a spill is
to have your right of way taken by an unaware motorist.

I wouldn't try this stunt in too many places in the world, daily. 
Assuming we want to see the future we talk about, not taking certain 
risks is the entry ticket.

> one of those going in now, along the 237 corridor that leads from San Jose
> to the Yahoo headquarters next to Lockheed Sunnyvale.  I recognize it is
> costly to route those things, but people will use them for low-profile

Very costly indeed. You'd have to elbow all the other infrastructure out
of the way.

> bikes, which really can only be used if there are specialized bike roads.
> The recumbents will encourage those who cannot or will not ride standard
> configured bicycles because the standard seat is too hard on the ass.

Recumbents are great, but you could as well be riding a stealth ekranoplan.
They sure won't see you coming, without giant flash xenon lights on top,
and a good siren. (And a couple of ground-ground missiles to clear the
way, just in case).

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

From brian at posthuman.com  Sat Nov  3 17:33:17 2007
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 12:33:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com>
References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>
	<62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com>

Mike Dougherty wrote:
> 
> I wish the government would incentivize business to allow this where
> possible.  My personal preference to do so carries so little weight
> that my employer has no reason to comply, but a monetary incentive
> (tax break/etc) would induce far greater motivation.
> 
> Of course I would have to be willing to spend the money I save
> elsewhere in the economy else the government risks destabilizing the
> status quo - which is highly dependent on energy from dead dinos.

If you expect to save money, and your employer wants money, then why not just 
offer to take less salary for this type of work?
-- 
Brian Atkins

From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Nov  3 17:48:07 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:48:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com>
References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>
	<62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071103174807.GH4005@leitl.org>

On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 01:05:39PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> I wish the government would incentivize business to allow this where
> possible.  My personal preference to do so carries so little weight
> that my employer has no reason to comply, but a monetary incentive
> (tax break/etc) would induce far greater motivation.

If it was just for financial incentives, it would be so easy.
But most modern workplace is the rock of Gibraltar, with alpha
primates needing close control of the hierarchy, while simultaneously
maintaining an easy dinner distance for business deals.

Also, the technology is not nearly there. We'd need realtime
motion capturing, including the most subtle mimic, and complete
audio. This sounds like an overkill, but monkeys are funky that way.

Most business structures can't handle self-organizing, self-motivated
agents (which are really rare, too). To show up on time,
and separating the work and playspace is a useful threshold
for many people 
 
> Of course I would have to be willing to spend the money I save
> elsewhere in the economy else the government risks destabilizing the
> status quo - which is highly dependent on energy from dead dinos.

One of the most damning part of governments is that they waste
most of what they take from us forcibly.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov  3 17:39:53 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:39:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandon all g i joes
In-Reply-To: <20071103171547.GG4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <200711031806.lA3I6MqE004737@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


A local toy manufacturer has figured out a way to make the world live as
one, and we needn't even try to imagine no religion:

http://www.kpho.com/news/14502043/detail.html

Talking Jesus dolls.  Now why didn't we think of that sooner?

Notice the rassler pecs on this dude.  And this was in the days before roids
and bench press machines.  Compare to the images we have of Buddha, with
that sloppy round belly, probably from devouring too much myrrh.  Jesus on
the other hand is always depicted as buff and chiseled.  Impressive.

Of course the kids who get these dolls will immediately set up a battle
between the Jesuses and the GI Joes.  The Jesus side has the whole miracle
thing going, but they will need it up against the Joes, with that bad ass
bazooka and the M60.

spike





  


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov  3 18:14:07 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:14:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandon all notions of perishing young
In-Reply-To: <472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <200711031840.lA3IeaFB014874@andromeda.ziaspace.com>



I heard on the radio that Jim Morrison would be approaching his 64th
birthday had he not suffered the untimely heart attack at age 27.  Natalie
Wood would be nearly 70 and Marilynn Monroe would be in her early 80s had
not they succumbed to heart attacks at ages 43 and 36 respectively.

Nowthen, these young stars that chose lifestyles that may have contributed
to their untimely heart attacks at tragically young ages have the one
compensating factor that all the images of themselves are of beautiful young
people.  Perhaps they make dangerous lifestyle choices knowing that they
will at least leave a beautiful corpse.  

We have seen age progressed image modification technology used to help
identify long missing children.  It occurred to me that we could use that
technology on long dead celebrities who perished in their youth.  That way,
we would get to see Morrison, Wood and Monroe, not as eternally young
beauties, but aging just like the rest of us.  Then the next generation of
risk-taking young celebrities would get the lesson that if you live fast,
die young, etc, you may leave a beautiful corpse but you eventually become a
crotchety old geezer anyway, at least digitally.

This technology of age progressive imaging then could be seen as a safety
measure for young celebrities, for it would encourage them to live safely
and sanely, age naturally, just to see if their actual image is better than
the theoretical computer generated age progressed image.  Think of all the
beautiful young lives this idea could save.

spike







From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 19:06:30 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:06:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] abandon all notions of perishing young
In-Reply-To: <200711031840.lA3IeaFB014874@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200711031840.lA3IeaFB014874@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200711031406.30373.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 03 November 2007 13:14, Spike wrote:
> This technology of age progressive imaging then could be seen as a
> safety measure for young celebrities, for it would encourage them to
> live safely and sanely, age naturally, just to see if their actual
> image is better than the theoretical computer generated age
> progressed image. ?Think of all the beautiful young lives this idea
> could save.

It would be interesting to see if they can stay ahead of the curve of 
image enhancement technology as it becomes more and more precise in its 
predictions as it gets more data fed into it.

- Bryan

From andres at thoughtware.tv  Sat Nov  3 19:35:56 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 15:35:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Transhuman Computation: Your Collective Intelligence
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0711031235nc46c6a5h7017d34a937b9e1d@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Sergio and Natasha :-)

Howard Bloom's book Lucifer principle is on its way. My goal will be
computational, but anything will help. The more ideas I find the better.

I also found a very good book on programming Collective Intelligence from an
algorithmic sense, from O'Reilly, which has been a very interesting read.

Thank you both for the help and thanks Natasha for the interest. I'll make
sure you're both amongst the first to benefit from what I'm going to attempt
next.

- Andres,
Thoughtware.TV <http://www.Thoughtware.TV>


This is a great project and I look forward to
> hearing about what you do with it.  It is not my
> field but if it were my research project,  I
> would find as much information on this topic as
> possible (googling is easy), and create a
> bibliography of references. Skim through the
> material, jot down notes on what relates to you
> questions. Then come up with a few  new more
> target questions that shows that you have some
> knowledge of the area.  That will help anyone
> responding to better address your concerns/questions/etc.
>
> >And second and most important: How can it be harnessed?
> >I would like to see examples on how it can be
> >harnessed. From bacterial colonies, web-services
> >and human computation, I would like for you to
> >share any resources, blogs, websites, books,
> >fiction or not, arts, anything you can remember or find.
>
> Okay, will do in the immersive arts, etc.
>
> Natasha
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:29:07 -0500
> From: Bryan Bishop < kanzure at gmail.com>
> Subject: [wta-talk] Mega/astro-scale engineering mailing list
>         announcement
> To: orions_arm at yahoogroups.com, World Transhumanist Association
>         Discussion List <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>,   "'ExI chat list'"
>         <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >
> Message-ID: <200711022329.07378.kanzure at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> http://heybryan.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
>
> The discussion topic is: "Astroscale/megascale engineering technical
> discussion, i.e. Matrioshka/Jupiter/moon brains, Dyson spheres, laser
> stars, etc."
>
> This is somewhat of a study group, to calculate feasabilities and poke
> fun at the vast imaginary structs, but news and other tidbits are OK.
>
> I'll be posting my thoughts on "laser stars" in a few days-- it's one
> particular application of the sun that could be used for signaling
> across galaxies with incredibly focused light. But would it be enough?
>
> Sidenote: on the confirmation email, click the link. The mail server is
> acting up and the "reply to subscribe" feature is dead. I am new to
> list administration.
>
> - Bryan
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megastructure
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroengineering
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megascale_engineering
> http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/megascale_engineering.html
>
> "I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more: more
> human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more
> suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more
> evolution, more life."
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> wta-talk mailing list
> wta-talk at transhumanism.org
> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk
> ------------------------------------
> WTA-talk is an open forum and views expressed here are not necessarily
> representative of the WTA or compatible with transhumanism.
>
>
> End of wta-talk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 6
> ***************************************
>
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Nov  3 19:57:20 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:57:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Transhuman Computation: Your Collective Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <f1d9c15f0711031235nc46c6a5h7017d34a937b9e1d@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <f1d9c15f0711031235nc46c6a5h7017d34a937b9e1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711031957.lA3JvLfa016849@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com>

At 02:35 PM 11/3/2007, you wrote:
>Thank you Sergio and Natasha :-)
>
>Howard Bloom's book Lucifer principle is on its way. My goal will be 
>computational, but anything will help. The more ideas I find the better.
>
>I also found a very good book on programming Collective Intelligence 
>from an algorithmic sense, from O'Reilly, which has been a very 
>interesting read.


This morning I was reading about telematics and Roy Ascott (my 
advisor) and I think you would find he writing of great 
interest.  Telematic Embrace is especially good.  (You also might 
enjoy the ideas of William Grey Walter, Anthony Stafford Beer, and 
William Ross Ashby).

Natasha


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 20:56:16 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:56:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses
In-Reply-To: <472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com>
References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org>
	<62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com>
	<472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240711031356g6c0b669hb3259b5353c5427c@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/07, Brian Atkins <brian at posthuman.com> wrote:
> If you expect to save money, and your employer wants money, then why not just
> offer to take less salary for this type of work?

That would be un-American.  :)

From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 21:41:08 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] science in Italy
In-Reply-To: <p06230905c351c030b464@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <788222.96060.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Amara,
  I understand your bitterness and disappointment towards Italy,
  but I think you have raw feelings right now, I completly sympathize with you completely,
  after all I left my own country. I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation is not bad. I left 13 years ago and even if it is a little while, I cannot imagine the country changed completly in few years. The south of Italy is almost a complete different world as you reported in your past entry.
  Bologna, were I went to college is a wonderful city and in its University (the oldest in world) the general Physics class had about 300 students in it when I was there.
   
  Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science (statistics have limitations of course but they give an idea)...
  Italy doesn't seem to score to bad give its size....
  http://www.in-cites.com/research/2003/june_9_2003-1.html
  For example in space science, the Italian contribution (between 1998-2002) to worldwide articles in the field is about 18 % above world average.
  Italy has ranking 7th in the Essential Science Indicators list that contains 145 countries.
  http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2006allfields.html
  No bad....
   
   
   
   
  
Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
  I slightly changed the subject line because I made a mistake with it,
too quick. Of course large parts of the world are still not included.
Also the statistics were from 1999, before all of the new EU member
countries entered. I should have rearranged the rows to include them
properly under the EU heading.

giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com :
>For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems 
>impossible that >several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" 
>than Italy.

Which? Its broken infrastructure does not make Italy a modern country.

When was the last time you tried to set up a business in Italy? I looked
into it, and ... it's not very different from trying to get a permesso di
soggiorno in terms of complexity and complications and time. And the
taxes are horrendous. I can set up a business in Latvia in a fraction
of the time I would need in Italy and the taxes are considerably less.
In Estonia (one of the strongest business climates in Europe now),
I can do it in even less time.

I suggest to visit Turkey to see what an emerging new European country
looks like. Please notice the ease of public transportation in Istanbul,
the high energy business climate, the cleanliness. And I've spent a fair
bit of time in Switzerland (I almost went to Bern instead of deciding to
go go Boulder) in the last few years (have you?), I'm not surprised one
bit by Switzerland's rating.

>About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every
>European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US immediately
>notices how uneducated people in general are.

I already commented on the heterogenity of reading habits in different
US places. (Have you ever lived in the SF Bay area?). My point was comparing
Italian reading habits to other Europeans. And everyone here knows
that I prefer to live in Europe much more than the US, and why.

>The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely
>well rounded.

Of the rare few that exist, Yes. Remember too that PhDs
were not given in Italy until early-middle 1980s, so you will never
find an Italian PhD scientist above the age of 50 who earned their PhD
in Italy. And yes, I've already commented some number of times here
and in the wta list on Italian's education focus in the Classics.
(for example: 
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-June/035945.html)

>And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of
>Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for
>my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read
>that book.

The waiter serving my colleagues and I in Boulder knew the difference
between several models of string theory (and he wasn't a scientist).
But then I wouldn't have chosen that place (Boulder) to make this particular
big move (It's a recovery strategy from Italy) if I did not know already
very well the highly educated level of the people in that town.
(I used to live there 25 years ago)

The typical Frascati, Italy scenario is the local 20s something person
who thinks that a truck driver is a more useful and interesting profession
than an atmospheric scientist studying climatology.. I'm sure that he
could quote Augustus, but he wouldn't know the difference between...,
ok never mind, that's another story, and I don't have time.

Ciao,
Amara



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http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 22:21:08 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] science in Italy
In-Reply-To: <788222.96060.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <819849.8005.qm@web31311.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

'after all I left my own country. I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation is not bad.'
   
  what I meant was the situation is not that bad .....
   
  
giovanni santost <santostasigio at yahoo.com> wrote:
    Hi Amara,
  I understand your bitterness and disappointment towards Italy,
  but I think you have raw feelings right now, I completly sympathize with you completely,
  after all I left my own country. I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation is not bad. I left 13 years ago and even if it is a little while, I cannot imagine the country changed completly in few years. The south of Italy is almost a complete different world as you reported in your past entry.
  Bologna, were I went to college is a wonderful city and in its University (the oldest in world) the general Physics class had about 300 students in it when I was there.
   
  Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science (statistics have limitations of course but they give an idea)...
  Italy doesn't seem to score to bad give its size....
  http://www.in-cites.com/research/2003/june_9_2003-1.html
  For example in space science, the Italian contribution (between 1998-2002) to worldwide articles in the field is about 18 % above world average.
  Italy has ranking 7th in the Essential Science Indicators list that contains 145 countries.
  http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2006allfields.html
  No bad....
   
   
   
   
  
Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
  I slightly changed the subject line because I made a mistake with it,
too quick. Of course large parts of the world are still not included.
Also the statistics were from 1999, before all of the new EU member
countries entered. I should have rearranged the rows to include them
properly under the EU heading.

giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com :
>For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems 
>impossible that >several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" 
>than Italy.

Which? Its broken infrastructure does not make Italy a modern country.

When was the last time you tried to set up a business in Italy? I looked
into it, and ... it's not very different from trying to get a permesso di
soggiorno in terms of complexity and complications and time. And the
taxes are horrendous. I can set up a business in Latvia in a fraction
of the time I would need in Italy and the taxes are considerably less.
In Estonia (one of the strongest business climates in Europe now),
I can do it in even less time.

I suggest to visit Turkey to see what an emerging new European country
looks like. Please notice the ease of public transportation in Istanbul,
the high energy business climate, the cleanliness. And I've spent a fair
bit of time in Switzerland (I almost went to Bern instead of deciding to
go go Boulder) in the last few years (have you?), I'm not surprised one
bit by Switzerland's rating.

>About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every
>European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US immediately
>notices how uneducated people in general are.

I already commented on the heterogenity of reading habits in different
US places. (Have you ever lived in the SF Bay area?). My point was comparing
Italian reading habits to other Europeans. And everyone here knows
that I prefer to live in Europe much more than the US, and why.

>The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely
>well rounded.

Of the rare few that exist, Yes. Remember too that PhDs
were not given in Italy until early-middle 1980s, so you will never
find an Italian PhD scientist above the age of 50 who earned their PhD
in Italy. And yes, I've already commented some number of times here
and in the wta list on Italian's education focus in the Classics.
(for example: 
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-June/035945.html)

>And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of
>Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for
>my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read
>that book.

The waiter serving my colleagues and I in Boulder knew the difference
between several models of string theory (and he wasn't a scientist).
But then I wouldn't have chosen that place (Boulder) to make this particular
big move (It's a recovery strategy from Italy) if I did not know already
very well the highly educated level of the people in that town.
(I used to live there 25 years ago)

The typical Frascati, Italy scenario is the local 20s something person
who thinks that a truck driver is a more useful and interesting profession
than an atmospheric scientist studying climatology.. I'm sure that he
could quote Augustus, but he wouldn't know the difference between...,
ok never mind, that's another story, and I don't have time.

Ciao,
Amara



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From amara at amara.com  Sat Nov  3 23:12:25 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 00:12:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  science in Italy
Message-ID: <p06230900c352ab7cda86@[23.237.66.13]>

giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com :
>I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation 
>is not bad.
I left a permanent job. (And that 12,000 euros pension I paid.. ? Gone.....
like my 10,000 euros savings and everything else..) These five years was
like a continual white hot fire, what came out at the other side was
a trace of the person that entered. Last Monday was _so_ fitting. I gave
up everything else of me to the country. At the end, there was nothing
else left to give, but those documents.

>Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science

Yes, I know.
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/basic-research-.html#comment-81664115

Amara

P.S. I know about Bologna, my good friend (working at IFSI-Roma) is from
there,  and returns as often as possible because it is the only place where
she can relax. Maybe you and her should have a conversation.

P.P.S. Or better yet, I give you my former job.

From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  4 02:18:27 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 19:18:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] science in Italy
In-Reply-To: <p06230900c352ab7cda86@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <190495.6185.qm@web31310.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi,
  ok, peace...
  I'm sure your decision was very hard and you had really bad experiences to make you choose to give up and I just offer all my support...
  all I wanted to do here, was to defend a little the value of my country, but I do understand all its limitations and missed opportunities...
  I hope you will be happy with your new job, I'm sure you will be fine in Colorado...
  and thank you, I pass on your old job...lol
  

Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
  giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com :
>I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation 
>is not bad.
I left a permanent job. (And that 12,000 euros pension I paid.. ? Gone.....
like my 10,000 euros savings and everything else..) These five years was
like a continual white hot fire, what came out at the other side was
a trace of the person that entered. Last Monday was _so_ fitting. I gave
up everything else of me to the country. At the end, there was nothing
else left to give, but those documents.

>Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science

Yes, I know.
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/basic-research-.html#comment-81664115

Amara

P.S. I know about Bologna, my good friend (working at IFSI-Roma) is from
there, and returns as often as possible because it is the only place where
she can relax. Maybe you and her should have a conversation.

P.P.S. Or better yet, I give you my former job.
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From amara at amara.com  Sun Nov  4 06:59:07 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:59:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  science in Italy
Message-ID: <p06230901c3531a48d265@[23.237.66.13]>

>I hope you will be happy with your new job, I'm sure you will be 
>fine in Colorado...

It's my best recovery strategy from the last years. I expect large and
good things to happen in Boulder. I have several strategies planned for
how I can return to Europe (not Italy) after I complete my SwRI contract.
I'm in Europe ten years, and despite the burn of Italy, Europe is still
where I know I can best build my and my dependents' long-term future.

Amara

From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 15:00:10 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:00:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles
Message-ID: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com>


Natasha Vita-More once defined H+ as "the commitment to overcoming human 
limits in all forms," it is the deepest commitment to self-creation 
requiring the most serious mind, whether the consequences be the dreaded 
cancer that fills reality full of forms, or the equally and oppositely 
unwarranted complacency that (I suspect) has fallen over the >H 
community as of late, that serves as a minima on the Great Unfolding of 
reality. Striking the 'right' rate is tricky, and hopefully this can 
serve to stimulate some minds.

As Neo put it in the original script to The Matrix:
> I believe that to be truly free, truly free, you cannot change your
> cage. You have to change yourself. 
http://fusionanomaly.net/matrix.html

There has been discussion in the past on the transient nature of the 
self. We are continuously being recreated again and again. Is it not 
within our reach to tap into this recreation process (the change) and 
tell the unfolding story of individual selves as we mean to?

From 1995 came "The Truth" said to be essentially transhumanist:
> The wise among us accept their true identity as being part of a
> growing god, and they attempt to live aligned with the godward path of
> our growing universe by always making choices that help themselves and
> all others become their most godlike.
http://web.archive.org/web/19970212041820/www.the-truth.com/summary.html

And in 1989 began the Silicon (Br)/otherhood:
> Now we, the initiators, explorers, guardians and even exploiters of
> the Silicon awareness revolution are concerned about its uses and
> abuses, and above all, acknowlegde its potential for growing awareness
> and human transcedence. We owe today's hackers and whiz- kids, and
> ourselves, the opportunity to follow the Silicon Path, becoming the
> magi(cians) and mystics of our times. If the computer is nothing but
> another way to get in touch with the ultimate reality (and what else
> could it be), it needs some `small' br/others to safeguard that path.
http://www.net.info.nl/myster/school/brtherh.htm

Neverness (1988):
> I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more:
> more human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more
> suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more
> evolution, more life.
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/zindell.html

However: from my observations of transhumanists, while some want more 
(in the information theoretic, programmed, thermodynamical, or 
complexity sense), others seem to want things to be Better, for the 
universe and reality to be other than it is, in a much more 'social' 
sense.

I understand and respect that there exists a diversity of forms, and 
this diversity is important, yes, but it still irks me as to how H+ has 
become a playground encompassing more than was originally, perhaps, 
intended. Wouldn't H+ imply the transcension beyond good/bad and in its 
place the responsibility of caretaker, of programmer-scientist, 
storyteller, of change agent?

Ultimately I suspect that there are some first principles from which 
transhumanism can be derived and if not, something close to it. These 
first principles would be able to give us a glimpse into whether or 
not 'ethics' and 'morality' are truly needed at the core of 
transhumanist philosophy.

- Bryan

From pgptag at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 15:18:40 2007
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 16:18:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles
In-Reply-To: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <470a3c520711040718t1d99a6e0mbc5eda36b88f0f8f@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting observations. But why do we have to choose? I want more
AND better. Also, more implies the possibility of better (of course it
implies also the possibility of worse), and better requires more
option to choose from.
G.

On Nov 4, 2007 4:00 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Natasha Vita-More once defined H+ as "the commitment to overcoming human
> limits in all forms," it is the deepest commitment to self-creation
> requiring the most serious mind, whether the consequences be the dreaded
> cancer that fills reality full of forms, or the equally and oppositely
> unwarranted complacency that (I suspect) has fallen over the >H
> community as of late, that serves as a minima on the Great Unfolding of
> reality. Striking the 'right' rate is tricky, and hopefully this can
> serve to stimulate some minds.
>
> As Neo put it in the original script to The Matrix:
> > I believe that to be truly free, truly free, you cannot change your
> > cage. You have to change yourself.
> http://fusionanomaly.net/matrix.html
>
> There has been discussion in the past on the transient nature of the
> self. We are continuously being recreated again and again. Is it not
> within our reach to tap into this recreation process (the change) and
> tell the unfolding story of individual selves as we mean to?
>
> >From 1995 came "The Truth" said to be essentially transhumanist:
> > The wise among us accept their true identity as being part of a
> > growing god, and they attempt to live aligned with the godward path of
> > our growing universe by always making choices that help themselves and
> > all others become their most godlike.
> http://web.archive.org/web/19970212041820/www.the-truth.com/summary.html
>
> And in 1989 began the Silicon (Br)/otherhood:
> > Now we, the initiators, explorers, guardians and even exploiters of
> > the Silicon awareness revolution are concerned about its uses and
> > abuses, and above all, acknowlegde its potential for growing awareness
> > and human transcedence. We owe today's hackers and whiz- kids, and
> > ourselves, the opportunity to follow the Silicon Path, becoming the
> > magi(cians) and mystics of our times. If the computer is nothing but
> > another way to get in touch with the ultimate reality (and what else
> > could it be), it needs some `small' br/others to safeguard that path.
> http://www.net.info.nl/myster/school/brtherh.htm
>
> Neverness (1988):
> > I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more:
> > more human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more
> > suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more
> > evolution, more life.
> http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/zindell.html
>
> However: from my observations of transhumanists, while some want more
> (in the information theoretic, programmed, thermodynamical, or
> complexity sense), others seem to want things to be Better, for the
> universe and reality to be other than it is, in a much more 'social'
> sense.
>
> I understand and respect that there exists a diversity of forms, and
> this diversity is important, yes, but it still irks me as to how H+ has
> become a playground encompassing more than was originally, perhaps,
> intended. Wouldn't H+ imply the transce