From sentience at pobox.com  Tue Apr  1 01:29:12 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:29:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>

Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
government.

As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon emissions 
from coal plants that should never have been built.

It is not necessarily possible for the "free market" to swoop in and 
fix these problems after they have had 40 years to get worse.

Right now, we *should* have an upper bound of $5 on gas because 
everyone knows it's possible to just build more nuclear power plants 
and synthesize fuel from atmospheric carbon.  But, in fact, we don't 
live in that world.

China should be building one nuclear power plant per day using their 
foreign exchange surplus - after the rich West paid to do the design 
work, and standardized the plant manufacturing.  Instead, China is 
building one coal plant every 4 days.

The "free market" has *already* been stomped on, and the lead time to 
fix things is not instantaneous.

If I put it that way, do you see how much trouble we may be in?

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 01:31:20 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:31:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>

At 11:31 PM 3/31/2008 +0100, ben zaiboc wrote:

>Why would being convinced that the "mapping over there" is you, lead to
>being relaxed about the other you, over here,  being obliterated? This
>makes no sense (to me. See below).
>...
>Why on earth would anyone think this?

You'll have to take this up with John Clark, who says so quite often. 
(As long as there's only a second or so's post-duplication lag, 
although some are apparently more lax about discrepancies.)

Damien Broderick 



From jef at jefallbright.net  Tue Apr  1 00:25:26 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:25:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <552780.81939.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f7bfe5740803281001l7ee92bbbsf5bc57f1c4da531a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740803281009h5b4b80e4td181d61e971b7700@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d301c892d7$57db8f90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740803310741i2e4dff17k80f395646e3eed49@mail.gmail.com>
	<019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  That still leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Oh, and by the way,
>  I do plead guilty to being focused upon personal *survival*. But,
>  you see, what I really want to understand are the necessary and
>  sufficient conditions that you endorse for the continued existence
>  of a *person*----that is what the question of personal identity
>  amounts to. Your slightly modified definition or characterization
>  I have offset above fails to explain just when a "personal identity"
>  ceases to be, even by degree.
>
>  We were closer back in the days when you'd agree that a 6 year
>  old Alice was not the same person as the 86 year old Alice. But
>  it seems to me that you are becoming increasingly vague and
>  obscure.

On the contrary, I posted that little story about Aging Alice,
<http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2006-November/030182.html>,
to show that the diachronic self entails /no/ difference of identity
for the person or their society -- to the extent that agency is
maintained.

I showed how Alice as a young girl, Alice as a young adult, Alice as a
mature adult, and even Alice in old age could have substantial, even
conflicting, differences in their memories, values, functions and
morphology, yet be easily, naturally, and effectively considered the
same person by herself and those around her.  I showed also how the
entity Alice of future technology could have simultaneous "variants
and doubles" in addition to the aging meat body, all considered the
same self to the extent they act on behalf of the same entity.

In contrast, your view becomes increasingly incoherent as it departs
from the special case of exact duplicates at T=0.

You've said many times that as duplicates diverge in form and function
they become less the same person.  In acknowledging this you recognize
that it raises a fundamental question but you're unable to quantify or
fit a function.  And you can't because it's only a special case,
operating according to principles outside your model, that you've
chosen to ignore -- apparently because to do so would undermine the
Key to Personal Survival you've been so tightly grasping and carefully
polishing all these years.  You can't possibly come up with even an
approximate function for relating physical/functional/pattern
divergence to personal identity divergence -- because personal
identity is not a function of physical/functional/pattern similarity.
Physical/functional/pattern similarity is merely *correlated in our
experience* with identity because it's the simplest, most probable
example of personal agency, with that probability approaching absolute
certainty as all differences approach indiscernibility.

Personal identity is not a function of physical/functional/pattern
similarity -- that's only a special case.
Personal identity is a function of the extent to which an agent is
perceived to act on behalf of a (personal) entity.

Regardless of changes in physical form; function lost or enhanced;
memories lost, gained, modified or even "made up"; values cherished
and then left behind, emotional response changing over minutes, hours,
weeks, years; spatial change, temporal change, spatio-temporal
replicas... None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
extent it impacts agency.

...

As I thought about how to lay out the rest of a proper response, I
realized I've said it all before.

When will I learn?

Have fun, Lee.  This particular sandbox is all yours.

- Jef


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aging Alice

Alice at the age of six loved playing with dolls but boys were icky.
She wasn't sure whether she believed in Santa Claus, and her memories
were like those of most little girls, revolving around events in her
home and with the neighbor kids, and she especially remembered her
fourth birthday party (birthdays are great!) when grandma came to
visit all the way from... someplace far away.

When Alice turned sixteen, playing with dolls was long since pass? and
boys were the most important focus of her life.  She didn't believe in
Santa Claus, but she believed very strongly that anyone should be
allowed to do whatever they want, as long as they don't hurt anyone
else, and she really really really wished people would leave her
alone!  Her memories were mostly of friends and social events over the
last several years, but she didn't remember a lot about her early
childhood years.

When Alice was twenty-six, she was very active in her local chapter of
United World, and it frustrated her to no end how people were so blind
to the importance, rather the necessity, of being involved and working
together for a common cause. Her memories were full of momentous world
events and she could hardly remember being the sixteen year old who so
often said "leave me alone" when people offered to help.

At thirty-six, Alice couldn't understand how people could find time
for idealistic dreams like "saving the world" when she and her husband
had their hands more than full with two jobs, two mortgages and two
kids.  She believed strongly that family (especially the children)
comes first, and that free time was among the most valuable things in
the universe.  She had fond memories of being sixteen, when life was
so simple and free.

<Skip ahead fifty years>

At eighty-six, Alice and her partner stayed almost entirely at home
due to the ongoing bioterrorist threats. It wasn't so bad though, and
in fact she was more active and involved than ever before using the
latest telepresence technology. It allowed her to be in more than one
place at the same time, and while her multiple projects were very
important to her, even with mental augmentation she sometimes felt she
might explode from all the in-rushing information. Being so plugged
into the net it was often hard to discern where "Alice" ended and the
rest of the world began, and she could "remember" almost anything
instantly.

<Skip ahead fifty years>

On their one hundred thirty-sixth birthday Alice's variants and
doubles noted their anniversary in passing but were much too engaged
with multiples of projects to choose to allocate an attentional
resource branch for a dedicated celebration. AlicePrime would have
wanted it that way, and it's not like anyone's going to forget
anything these days.


From aiguy at comcast.net  Tue Apr  1 02:19:29 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:19:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com><62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com><015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <008701c8939e$d136e250$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>

Eliezer said: >>
 
Right now, we *should* have an upper bound of $5 on gas because everyone
knows it's possible to just build more nuclear power plants and synthesize
fuel from atmospheric carbon.  But, in fact, we don't live in that world.

China should be building one nuclear power plant per day using their foreign
exchange surplus - after the rich West paid to do the design work, and
standardized the plant manufacturing.  Instead, China is building one coal
plant every 4 days.

>>

My Response:

China is slated to build 15 Nuclear plants over the next 15 years with
Westinghouse,

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06351/746789-28.stm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_40/b3953066.htm


That's certainly not the 1 every 4 days like the coal fire plants but my
guess is the nuclear plants will outproduce them by a wide margin.

And from what China learns from the construction of the first 4 that
Westinghouse is building now, I bet they start building their own as quickly
as they can copy the blueprints and set up a supply chain.



From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 02:24:04 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:24:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <fc5ce48b121b1.47f15674@insightbb.com>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" <sentience at pobox.com>
Date: Monday, March 31, 2008 20:33
Subject: Re: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear 
> power 
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling 
> in 
> government.
> 
> As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon 
> emissions 
> from coal plants that should never have been built.

So in other words - environmentalism causes global warming..... :-P
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 02:28:31 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:28:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>


I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I just thought I would pass this on.

http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html

Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 

(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.
Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from Hood River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 
But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady loosely known as colony collapse disorder. 
In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees gone and presumed dead. 
The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny mite that infests bees. 
But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 
Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting next week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee health and pollinators in Oregon. 
Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early in this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of Agricultural Sciences. 
But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the health of bees. 
Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so its extension service could expand the services of its insect identification laboratory. 
In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its research positions is through endowments created with the help of private donors and supportive industries. 
For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed professorship focused on hazelnut research. 
Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria, said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 
Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 
"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be focused on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 
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From aiguy at comcast.net  Tue Apr  1 03:07:02 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:07:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <008801c893a5$76086e10$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>

John K. Clarke Said:

>> Maybe solar energy could someday make a dent in the problem, but the
technology just isn't there yet. Right now it would take a solar panel the
size New Jersey to replace the energy dispensed by just 100 gas stations.
There are about 20,000 gas stations in the USA alone. >>


My Response:

I think solar is making breakthroughs much faster now than most of us
realize.

The solar market grew 62% in 2007 and it remained capacity constrained due
to a shortage of polysilicon.

But over 21 new entrants started manufacturing polysilicon during the year.

So this constraint will be lifted in 2008 going forward.

http://www.eetimes.eu/206904401

High cost is being tackled on many fronts.

And MIT has just announced a solar startup that aims to match coal in price.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=207000381

"The cell architecture, developed at MIT, improves surface texture and
metallization to improve silicon solar cell efficiency from about 15 percent
to 19 percent, while lowering costs. 

1366 Technologies said it plans licensing its technology to solar companies
and government agencies and thus accelerate a transition from fossil fuel
based energy to solar. In addition, the company plans to build industrial,
100 megawatt plants around the world. 

"The science is understood, the raw materials are abundant and the products
work. All that is left to do is innovate in manufacturing and scale up
volume production, and thats just what we intend to do," said Sachs, in a
statement. 
"

It looks like the Free Market may be arriving just in time!

By making this technology available to other companies to continue to
innovate and improve upon using other efficiency increasing and cost
lowering technology, this technolgy and competition to improve upon it
should spread quickly.

As for the real estate taken up by solar farms, once the technology becomes
cheap enough to put on our roofs with a reasonable payback period, look for
new houses to start being energy self sufficient and perhaps even selling
their excess back to the power companies.

The company Nanosolar that offers low priced thin film solar cells is
already sold out of product until 2009.

"Their new $100,000,000 plant will produce Nanosolar SolarPly, its flagship
building-integrated product that acts as a solar-electric "carpet" for
integration with commercial roofing membranes; and Nanosolar Utiliscale, a
product specifically designed for large-scale, ground-mounted plant
installations."

http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/edn.htm




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 03:10:54 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:10:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804010312.m313CXqu022032@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

On Behalf Of Kevin Freels

	Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
	
	

	I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately.
I just thought I would pass this on.
	 
	http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html
	 
	Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
	Sponsored Links 
	 
	(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics
will help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee
population that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.
	Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops...




Ja, thanks Kevin.  I am one of these Oregon farmers.  Well, sorta.  I still
make my actual living at rocket science, and just dump money into the farm.
I feel sorry for the few that are dependent upon their farms for actual
income.  Seems that in our country in our times, anyone who farms must have
a paying job elsewhere in order to support their farming habit.

I did some more thinking about the bugwatcher website.  We could gather data
from volunteers in a skerjillion different places, then estimate the amount
of reduction from normal bee populations.  This year my reduction is two
orders of magnitude here: the bee population is about 1% of what I expect.
We could get bug population estimates, perhaps via instruments (buzzmeters?)
and then map populations with respect to location.  Then connect similar
population levels like a contour map, the lines being isobees.  That could
help determine how localized are the colony collapses.

Are there other bugwatchers out there?

spike





spike





From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr  1 04:55:14 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:55:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <552780.81939.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<f7bfe5740803281001l7ee92bbbsf5bc57f1c4da531a@mail.gmail.com>	<f7bfe5740803281009h5b4b80e4td181d61e971b7700@mail.gmail.com>	<00d301c892d7$57db8f90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<f7bfe5740803310741i2e4dff17k80f395646e3eed49@mail.gmail.com>	<019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA61CBB507F00E-1518-34C3@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>



 





 



As things seem to have become a bit fuzzy and I can't work out who is arguing what at the moment. And Just so I can understand where everyone is coming from. I was wondering how much everyone differs in answering the following. (My answers are at the bottom for reference)



1) Are single egg, Identical twins the same 'self'? If not, at what point did they diverge? cell division, birth etc



2) If through some boredom induced, drunken shenanigans you sew a donor hand to the top of your head, Is it part of the 'Self'? Does this depend on its functionality?

?

3) When neural spell checks and dictionary chips become available (hopefully soon)and if you get one fitted, Is it part of the 'self'?. What if it is unplug able?



4) Can a external viewer quantify 'self'? or can it only be truly known by the individual?



5) Are the language constraints of the notion 'Self' to flexible, rigid or indeterminate to be useful in this context? Do we need new terminology or subclasses of 'self' to get to the bottom of the Upload arguments?











My Answers

1) Twins are not the same self, although they were at conception. However the term self at that point is not really applicable as it somehow implies sentience, which clearly is not the case. I would say that the twins develop 'self' somewhere around the point where they would be classed as viable. And at the point of birth they would most definitely be different 'selves' despite being genetically identical, virtually physically identical and presumably comparable in memories.



2) The hand would be part of the 'self' from the moment of attachment, but for some It might not be considered so unless it is in some way functional. such as receiving sensory input from it, or being able to exert control of it.



3)I would consider any internal device such as these part of the self. But It wouldn't be so clear for an external or removable device. I wouldn't consider Fyborg devices like glasses to be in the self, but a prosthetic arm may well be. A bit contradicting when applied to the human state, but in the case of an upload, these devices it would not be absolutely necessary to include them for the self to be successfully included in the upload.



4) No, an external viewer can't quantify self as they have no access to it. Self is an observation made by the internal viewer only. An external viewer can only quantify 'You' or 'them', as such all equivalent versions of 'you' are acceptable but each individual can only quantify 'self' for themselves.



5)It would seem so, judging from the arguments. Self would be a singular concept, where only one could ever exist at a time. That self being the internal viewpoint of the individual. If another entity is spawned from the first, They both have separate self's from the point of separation. They would each be valid? versions of 'you' as per answer 4.
I am me, I am 'self', but to you, I is you, and me is you and you are 'self'. Its just a language trick.
So continuity of the 'self' can only be judged from the internal view and 'self' only relates to the continuity argument. When we start talking in terms of an identical copy, self no longer applies except to each individuals internal view of themselves, not their view of each other. So any perfect copy could be validly called 'Alex Blainey' but 'self' would be individual to each instance, each having a right to exist. The self could be transferred, but never copied.



Alex




________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr  1 04:56:58 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:56:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>
	<fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>


 Are we just talking honey bee's here? or are all bee types in decline?


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 3:28
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem











I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I just thought I would pass this on.


?


http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html


?


Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 


?


(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.


Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from Hood River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 


But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady loosely known as colony collapse disorder. 


In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees gone and presumed dead. 


The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny mite that infests bees. 


But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 


Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting next week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee health and pollinators in Oregon. 


Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early in this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of Agricultural Sciences. 


But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the health of bees. 


Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so its extension service could expand the services of its insect identification laboratory. 


In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its research positions is through endowments created with the help of private donors and supportive industries. 


For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed professorship focused on hazelnut research. 


Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria, said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 


Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 


"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be focused on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 



 





_______________________________________________
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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



 


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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 05:19:09 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:19:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Are we just talking honey bee's here? or are all bee types in decline?

 
Excellent question, Al.  I don't know.  I haven't seen any dying bumblebees
or any other types of bugs perishing, which counter-indicates a pesticide.
The leading theory I understand is CCD is caused by a virus carried by mites
other than varroa mites.  Damn.  We are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.
 
We are starting an offlist group, analogous to the M-Brain group we had a
few years ago.  A couple of hipsters have contacted me who know from
internet protocols better than I.  Hell, the bees know more from internet
protocols than I.  Understatement!  The POLLEN knows more from...
 
Al, do you want to be part of the spinoff bee discussion offlist?  Anyone
else?  Or would the rest of you want to just have us post highlights here?
I am looking for advice or help designing a website that is a little like
the earthquake site the USGS set up.  In that one, any time you feel a
tremor, you log on and tell them where you live and how much shaking you
felt.  They can estimate a magnitude and location within minutes.
 
http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/shake/ca/
 
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsus/
 
Wicked cool, ja?  Ain't it fun being alive and internet hip in 2008?  {8-]  
 
I want a bee version of these sites, where I can map epicenters of colony
collapse.  I am told I need a domain name?
 
spike   
 
 


  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
ablainey at aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 9:57 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Bee Problem


Are we just talking honey bee's here? or are all bee types in decline?



-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 3:28
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem



I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I just
thought I would pass this on.
 
http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html
 
Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 
 
(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will
help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population
that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.
Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from Hood
River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 
But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate
crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady
loosely known as colony collapse disorder. 
In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees
gone and presumed dead. 
The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny
mite that infests bees. 
But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State
University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural
research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 
Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting next
week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee
health and pollinators in Oregon. 
Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early in
this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of
Agricultural Sciences. 
But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the health
of bees. 
Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so its
extension service could expand the services of its insect identification
laboratory. 
In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its research
positions is through endowments created with the help of private donors and
supportive industries. 
For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed
professorship focused on hazelnut research. 
Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria,
said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his
crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 
Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his
production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 
"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be focused
on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 
_______________________________________________


extropy-chat mailing list


extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


  _____  

AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour
<http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/>  now. 

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From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr  1 06:07:49 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 02:07:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <005201c893be$e5482900$b0f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com>

> The free market in the USA? How free is that free market?

Freer than most, not nearly as free as it should be.

spike wrote:

>Halliburton is up to no good?  What did they do?  Why are they in the
> same class with Enron the criminal gang?

You responded with:

<http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Civilians_testify_to_Halliburton_fraud%2C_coercion>

Damien, I read your link but frankly I am not impressed. It's a fact that
there are not many organizations that can provide the services that
Halliburton can and do so in a war zone, and so they charge accordingly. I
can't see where they did anything Enron level bad much less committed a
government grade horror. I'm not saying Halliburton is incapable of being
a little naughty from time to time, but compared with routine government
grade evil it's a little like a prison guard at Auschwitz raging about the
injustice of it all because somebody put a whoopee cushion on his chair.

  John K Clark






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 06:22:04 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:22:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401011907.0241df00@satx.rr.com>

At 10:19 PM 3/31/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

>I want a bee version of these sites, where I can map epicenters of 
>colony collapse.  I am told I need a domain name?

The following name would be ideal for an Aussie site but probably 
nowhere else on the planet, alas:

bee-buggered.com

Damien Broderick
(jes messin witch uh, doncha no]




From amara at amara.com  Tue Apr  1 05:56:57 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:56:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  The Bee Problem
Message-ID: <p06230901c4177eff2cc5@[192.168.0.66]>


Dear Spike,

A friend of mine returned from Arizona carrying a large jar of local honey;
she told me that there was no decline in the bees in Arizona.

spike spike66 at att.net :

>I am looking for advice or help designing a website that is a little like
>the earthquake site the USGS set up.

Google Maps might help:

http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2000/02/astronomical-observatories-on-google.html
(look at the comments too)

Amara
-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr  1 06:32:37 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:32:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>


 Interesting, I'd also like to know if this is worldwide or America's specific.You said 'We 
are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.'  I can see this being a definite problem if all bee types are declining. but what if other species like solitary bee's, bumble etc are not effected? These and other pollinators might increase in number to fill the gap?
I don't think I currently have time for the offlist group, but I would be interested in the highlights and I like the website idea.
loosely related to the subject there is a movie coming out soon where some unknown natural disaster starts to kill off everyone, the first indicators of something going on is the dramatic decline in bee numbers (or so it would seem from the trailer). It's called 'The Happening'. I'm not sure how much of a part the bees play. probably minimal, probably just the usual science to fiction link to make the story more credible.

Alex


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 6:19
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Bee Problem














Are we just talking honey bee's 
here? or are all bee types in decline?



?


Excellent question, Al.? I don't know.? I haven't 
seen any dying bumblebees or any other types of bugs perishing, which 
counter-indicates a pesticide.? The leading theory I understand is CCD is 
caused by a virus carried by mites other than varroa mites.? Damn.? We 
are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.


?


We are starting an offlist group, analogous to the M-Brain 
group we had a few years ago.? A couple of?hipsters have contacted me 
who know from?internet protocols better than I.? Hell, the bees know 
more from internet protocols than I.? Understatement!? The POLLEN 
knows more from...


?


Al, do you want to be part of the spinoff bee discussion 
offlist?? Anyone else?? Or would the rest of you want to just have us 
post highlights here?? I am looking for advice or help designing a 
website?that is a little?like the earthquake site the USGS set 
up.? In that one, any time you feel a tremor, you log on and?tell them 
where you live and how much shaking you felt.? They can estimate a 
magnitude and location within minutes.


?


http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/shake/ca/


?


http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsus/


?


Wicked cool, ja?? Ain't it fun being alive and 
internet hip in 2008?? {8-]? 


?


I want a bee version of these sites, where I can map 
epicenters of?colony collapse.? I am told I need 
a domain name?


?


spike???


?


?




  

  


  From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
  [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
  ablainey at aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 9:57 
  PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] 
  The Bee Problem



  


  
Are we just talking honey bee's 
  here? or are all bee types in decline?


  



  


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Freels 
  <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
To: ExI chat list 
  <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 
  3:28
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem


  

  

I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I 
  just thought I would pass this on.

  
?

  
http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html

  
?

  
Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 

  
?

  
(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will 
  help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population 
  that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.

  
Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from 
  Hood River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 

  
But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate 
  crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady loosely 
  known as colony collapse disorder. 

  
In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees 
  gone and presumed dead. 

  
The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny 
  mite that infests bees. 

  
But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State 
  University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural 
  research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 

  
Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting 
  next week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee 
  health and pollinators in Oregon. 

  
Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early 
  in this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of 
  Agricultural Sciences. 

  
But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the 
  health of bees. 

  
Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so 
  its extension service could expand the services of its insect identification 
  laboratory. 

  
In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its 
  research positions is through endowments created with the help of private 
  donors and supportive industries. 

  
For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed 
  professorship focused on hazelnut research. 

  
Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria, 
  said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his 
  crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 
  

  
Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his 
  production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 

  
"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be 
  focused on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 
  


  

_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



  

  


  AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour now. 



 





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



 


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 06:34:11 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:34:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <005201c893be$e5482900$b0f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<005201c893be$e5482900$b0f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401012257.024bdec0@satx.rr.com>

At 02:07 AM 4/1/2008 -0400, JKC wrote:

>You responded with:
>
><http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Civilians_testify_to_Halliburton_fraud%2C_coercion>

No I didn't. I responded with:

e.g.:
<http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Civilians_testify_to_Halliburton_fraud%2C_coercion>

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

>Damien, I read your link

The link which you mysteriously deleted (for which I make no 
warranty## ) is replete with further links.

Damien Broderick

##They might be lying fiends from hell for all I know. Here's their 
self-description:

< Oil Change is being founded in order to network together, 
encourage, and compliment a diversity of strategies and tactics 
around the oil industry. We are a research and advocacy organization 
that exists to force progress in the energy industry towards an 
environmentally and socially sustainable energy future. We achieve 
this by: being a consistent and credible source of information on the 
industry; using our knowledge of the industry to craft strategic, 
incisive campaigns; and by working with people around the world who 
are committed to shifting power.

Oil Change International organizes to unite allies, campaigns to 
divide opponents, and conducts research to expose hidden truths and 
trends towards overcoming each of these barriers.

Oil Change International is a 501 c 3 organization. Donations are 
fully tax deductible. We encourage you to donate via our online 
server, however if you prefer, you can send a check to: Oil Change 
International, 2228 12th Pl., NW, Washington DC, 20009.>

Here's their staff:

<http://priceofoil.org/about/staff/>

Oh no! Several Greenpeace veterans! A member of Rotary!





From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 08:02:50 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 01:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <647399.86023.qm@web65407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> Not me, I agree with the quote. Whatever is going to replace oil it
> will
> need to be HUGE, absolutely ENORMOUS! Wind farms and tidal energy
> just don't make the grade. Maybe solar energy could someday make a
> dent in the problem, but the technology just isn't there yet. Right
> now
> it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
> dispensed by just 100 gas stations. There are about 20,000 gas
> stations
> in the USA alone. And yes, I've heard of solar power satellites, but
> are
> you so confident that the idea will be economically and ecologically
> feasible that you would be willing to invest your entire life savings
> into
> the idea and be prepared to live on the streets if it failed? I'm
> not.

Why not? If you go down with the oil and internal combustion industry
ship, you will be on the streets any way. Some chance of avoiding
famine and the horrors of starvation is better than no chance. We are
stuck in a Malthusian trap plain and simple. We have gotten out of
these before and we can do it again, as long as we have the collective
will, freedom of action, and investment capital. But the solution won't
be a single technology or fit into a single sound bite. It will be a
lot of little things. Things like generating electricity from methane
bioreactors at sewage treatment plants and land fills, solar-steam 
farms, lots of nuclear power, and stirling-engine automobiles.   
  

> And I'm all for making things more efficient, but that's not going to
> solve
> the problem either, efficiency just makes energy cheaper, thus people
> will
> use more of it.

Yes this is the over-arching long-term problem. Going from hunter
gatherer to agrarian gave us some ecological slack that we subsequently
lost by overbreeding. Same thing happened when we made the agrarian to
industrial transition. If we escape from this one trap there is another
one on the horizon. So we best make best use of whatever time we buy to
find another habitable world. If we just breed to capacity again, we
really are screwed.

> You can fantasize about nuclear fusion (hot or cold) or vacuum zero
> point
> energy all you want but the cold hard reality is that right now only
> 5
> technologies have the potential to replace oil. All of them would
> give Green
> Party tree huggers a tizzy fit (but then everything gives them a
> tizzy fit);
> and none of them are exactly cheap, except perhaps the last if we did
> it
> just right. They are:
> 
> 1) Coal
> 2) Tar Sands
> 3) Oil Shale
> 4) Methane clathrate, (the least developed technology)
> 5) Nuclear Fission

Well if this is the case, we should be cajoling and bribing the
automotive industry to shrug off the death-grip of the oil industry and
start building stirling-electric hybrid automobiles. These things would
run off of batteries until the stirling engine got hot enough to start
recharching them with a generator. They could be set up to work with
ANY heat source. Burning coal, wood chips, cow-dung, even uranium fuel
rods. Either that or get ready to drag the steam engines back out.


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 10:57:28 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:57:28 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804010357y3693269ibda59a10333c455b@mail.gmail.com>

On 01/04/2008, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:

>  I don't see why people who make statements like this think they are
>  saying something reasonable. "If you get copied EXACTLY, then one of the
>  copies won't mind being killed" !?!?!
>
>  Why on earth would anyone think this?
>
>  I do think that an identical copy of my mind would be me, ('a me', if
>  you like), and i'm sure that none of the me's would be happy (or
>  relaxed, or indifferent) to be killed.
>
>  I remember reading a short story in which people start committing
>  suicide after the discovery that the multiple-worlds interpretation is
>  in fact true, and everyone has an infinite number of versions of them in
>  an infinite number of universes. I also remember thinking that this
>  story _makes no sense_. Would YOU commit suicide just because you knew
>  for a fact that there was another you somewhere? It's just a daft idea.

Well, I'll put my hand up to join the daft. If there were two copies
of me, A and B, *running in perfect lockstep*, let's say in
deterministic parallel computations, then I don't see what possible
difference it could make to me (that is, either one of the me's) if
one of the copies suddenly stopped.

Suppose I am copy A. At time T, the machine running A is turned off
while the machine running copy B continues. If you think that I, copy
A, don't survive the procedure consider this alternative scenario.
There is only one copy of me running on a particular machine. At time
T, the computation is saved to disk and the machine turned off. The
saved data is then loaded into another machine running the same
program, which therefore starts off at the point where the first
machine was stopped. Will I survive this procedure or will I die where
the computation is stopped and saved? Because this situation is
exactly equivalent to copy A stopping while copy B continues.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 11:37:20 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:37:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804010437u7de5855fyc0d6216b996a6b11@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:52 AM, <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

>  That occurred to to afterward, but it makes you wonder what if anything
> the parents would do about it? After all, they are the ones that have been
> responsible for the moral education of these young un's. Haven't they done
> well so far !.Likewise I think the law is flaccid when it comes to this kind
> of behaviour in kids this age. Teachers are no longer allowed to deal out
> discipline and even parents are limited and watched like hawks under the
> guise of 'protecting kids from abuse'.
> I am truly worried for the next generation of '*I want it now, you cant do
> nuffin, I am the centre of the universe' *kids. They clearly have their
> heads up their owns arses and have no respect for anyone or anything. At
> least we had respect and a healthy dose of fear.
> Very troubling indeed.
>

The truth is that "I am the center of the universe, you can't do nothing"
attitude may well work with parents or teachers, legally and psychologically
inhibited from doing anything about it. It does not work at all, however,
with *peers* who may find themselves below the age for criminal liability,
and that in any event even without major breach of the law can and will do
indeed much when faced with the attitude, and are bound to dispell any such
delusion very soon.

Stefano
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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:02:21 2008
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:02:21 -0300
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>

John Clark> You can fantasize about nuclear fusion (hot or cold) or vacuum 
zero point
> energy all you want but the cold hard reality is that right now only 5
> technologies have the potential to replace oil. All of them would give 
> Green
> Party tree huggers a tizzy fit (but then everything gives them a tizzy 
> fit);
> and none of them are exactly cheap, except perhaps the last if we did it
> just right. They are:
> 1) Coal
> 2) Tar Sands
> 3) Oil Shale
> 4) Methane clathrate, (the least developed technology)
> 5) Nuclear Fission

What about geothermal? The hot bed geothermal seems simple enough and very 
feasible. I simply can't understand the fact that we are sitting on a 
fireball the size of the Earth and yet we don't try a bit harder to use it's 
power. 



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:21:20 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:21:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804010521j31f85ef7tb39d3a2ebae4c411@mail.gmail.com>

Good news for Spike!

<http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218393082>

Doctors who treat patients with cancer have a balancing act. They give
too little chemotherapy and tumors survive, but too much can be life
threatening. Now researchers have found that in a series of lab tests,
not eating for 48 hours gave healthy cells an edge. University of
Southern California Associate Professor of Gerontology and Biological
Science Valter Longo says, "The cancer cells have this oncogene, have
these mutations that keep them always on. So, they basically are
unable to obey the starvation dependent order. Starvation tells
[healthy cells] to go into protective mode. The cancer cells, because
of their characteristics of not being able to respond to that, just
continue on their normal pro-growth track."
etc..........


PNAS Abstract
<http://www.pnas.org/cgi/gca?allch=&SEARCHID=1&AUTHOR1=longo&FULLTEXT=chemotherapy&gca=pnas%3B0708100105v1>

Strategies to treat cancer have focused primarily on the killing of
tumor cells. Here, we describe a differential stress resistance (DSR)
method that focuses instead on protecting the organism but not cancer
cells against chemotherapy. Short-term starved S. cerevisiae or cells
lacking proto-oncogene homologs were up to 1,000 times better
protected against oxidative stress or chemotherapy drugs than cells
expressing the oncogene homolog Ras2val19. Low-glucose or low-serum
media also protected primary glial cells but not six different rat and
human glioma and neuroblastoma cancer cell lines against hydrogen
peroxide or the chemotherapy drug/pro-oxidant cyclophosphamide.
Finally, short-term starvation provided complete protection to mice
but not to injected neuroblastoma cells against a high dose of the
chemotherapy drug/pro-oxidant etoposide. These studies describe a
starvation-based DSR strategy to enhance the efficacy of chemotherapy
and suggest that specific agents among those that promote oxidative
stress and DNA damage have the potential to maximize the differential
toxicity to normal and cancer cells.
--------------------------------


Further research required (of course), but it looks like 48 hours
starvation before chemotherapy helps the chemo to attack the cancer
cells more than normal cells.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:39:25 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:39:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804010539q6f9229bcsa612d0f17e5874c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky <sentience at pobox.com>
wrote:

> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in
> government.
>

Not to mention simple inertia and short-sightedness. It gives one pause to
consider that eventually to establish the ITER project, for a total cost of
less than *one fiftieth* - if I am not mistaken - of the last Iraq party, it
has taken a decade and a joint-venture amongst ten different major
government.

Things have changed a lot, and not always for the best, since the era of
Project Manhattan, Project Apollo, Project Human Genome, and so forth. And
sponsorship of fundamental research in Europe is becoming a joke, a footnote
in governmental budgets, while researchers are being starved,as Amara knows
only too well, to the advantage of bankers, brokers, managers and their
fashion stylists. :-(

Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:47:31 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:47:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <580930c20804010547l7135618cpfe94e81d7f1d8990@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> Maybe solar energy could someday make a
> dent in the problem, but the technology just isn't there yet. Right now
> it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
> dispensed by just 100 gas stations.


I am not sure this is a technological issue. All in all, as real estate
agents are fond of saying, square meters are the only thing that is
impossible to manufacture.

Thus, solar energy is by definition not sustainable, even without taking
into account different kinds of pollution and environmental damage related
to its extensive development. At the limit, they jury may rather still be
out for solar energy collected in space. But I still believe that if fusion
is the way most of energy is produced in the universe, it only makes sense
to engineer the process directly, and on the scale required, for our own
necessities.

Stefano Vaj
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 15:09:51 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 09:09:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>

The problem children you describe are not representative of the entire 
generation. I assure you that there are many good kids out there and 
they far outnumber the evil little devils described here. However, you 
are right that this is changing. Educated people are not having children 
at the same rate as the grown-up versions of these problem children. 
These kids are going out, getting pregnant at 14-19 years old, having 
several children. They are unable to guide them and nurture them into 
responsible lives so they repeat the cycle. Meanwhile, those who are 
well educated go on to college, get a career started and then MAY have 1 
or 2 children when they are over 25.

There is some good here though. Fortunately I happen to believe that 
much of "natural" behavior is genetic and that children will only 
unlearn those traits through conditioning. The underlying genetic 
behavior then would remain to be passed on. So there are still good kids 
that come out of bad homes and vice versa. In the end, I'm not sure it's 
enough to stop this trend completely, but it at least can slow it. What 
we educated folks need to do now is have more babies.(This should save 
many economies from disaster as well but that's another topic)



ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> That occurred to to afterward, but it makes you wonder what if 
> anything the parents would do about it? After all, they are the ones 
> that have been responsible for the moral education of these young 
> un's. Haven't they done well so far !.Likewise I think the law is 
> flaccid when it comes to this kind of behaviour in kids this age. 
> Teachers are no longer allowed to deal out discipline and even parents 
> are limited and watched like hawks under the guise of 'protecting kids 
> from abuse'.
> I am truly worried for the next generation of '/I want it now, you 
> cant do nuffin, I am the centre of the universe' /kids. They clearly 
> have their heads up their owns arses and have no respect for anyone or 
> anything. At least we had respect and a healthy dose of fear.
> Very troubling indeed.
>
> Alex
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:10
> Subject: Re: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
>
> On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 6:06 PM,  <ablainey at aol.com <mailto:ablainey at aol.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> >  ...I caught a 10 year old kid scrumping apples from one of my trees.
>
>
>
> > He shouted 'Yeah F at ck @ff, You can't do
>
> > anything you F at cking C at nt!!!' The whole group then started shouting words
>
> > they shouldn't know and started throwing stones at my windows!
>
>
>
>
>
> Interesting.
>
>
>
> I wonder if you could make a video of their behavior and then post it
>
> to you tube and my space/facebook.
>
>
>
> And then send a heads up to their parents, though you might not have to.
>
>
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> extropy-chat mailing list
>
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour 
> <http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/> now.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 14:56:38 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:56:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804010521j31f85ef7tb39d3a2ebae4c411@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0804010521j31f85ef7tb39d3a2ebae4c411@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804010756g181cb5bke7d9b6078f83f612@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:21 PM, BillK wrote:
> Good news for Spike!
>
>  <http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218393082>
>


I've just realised that my comment could be misinterpreted.

I didn't mean to imply that Spike is getting chemotherapy!   Never!

I just meant that because Spike already does calorie restriction, in
the unlikely event that he ever does need chemo, then he has a head
start over everyone else.


BillK


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Tue Apr  1 14:50:08 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 10:50:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>

Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:
> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
> government.

The fact that you would be so factually ignorant and irrational as to 
talk about "anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling" is a bad sign 
indeed.

Someone who is irrational is a problem.

Someone who is irrational and claims "rationalism" as the justification 
for their dogmatic beliefs is sinister.

What is even more ridiculous, for me, is that your conclusions about 
nuclear power are not, by themselves, inaccurate.  But linking that 
analysis to a statement about "anti-rationalist environmentalist 
meddling" betrays an inability to understand the system as a whole.

For example, one side effect of the nuclear resurgence now taking place 
is that the proliferation problem is quietly diversifying into new and 
terrifying directions:

http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn13459-disposable-nuclear-reactors-raise-security-fears.html

It is news such as this that makes it seem that those "anti-rationalist 
environmentalists" may have been correct in saying that nuclear power is 
managed so irresponsibly that, in practice, it has world-threatening 
side effects.

The issue, then, is whether nuclear power and renewable sources can be 
developed in such a tightly controlled and secure manner that the 
considerable dangers of nuclear power can be kept under control.



Richard Loosemore


From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr  1 15:42:29 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:42:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>

 "Henrique Moraes Machado" <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>

> What about geothermal? 

It might be interesting if you live in Iceland, but most of us don't.

  John K Clark






From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 17:03:09 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 11:03:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com> <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>



Richard Loosemore wrote:
> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:
>   
>> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
>> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
>> government.
>>     
>
> The fact that you would be so factually ignorant and irrational as to 
> talk about "anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling" is a bad sign 
> indeed.
>
> Someone who is irrational is a problem.
>
> Someone who is irrational and claims "rationalism" as the justification 
> for their dogmatic beliefs is sinister.
>
> What is even more ridiculous, for me, is that your conclusions about 
> nuclear power are not, by themselves, inaccurate.  But linking that 
> analysis to a statement about "anti-rationalist environmentalist 
> meddling" betrays an inability to understand the system as a whole.
>
> For example, one side effect of the nuclear resurgence now taking place 
> is that the proliferation problem is quietly diversifying into new and 
> terrifying directions:
>
> http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn13459-disposable-nuclear-reactors-raise-security-fears.html
>
> It is news such as this that makes it seem that those "anti-rationalist 
> environmentalists" may have been correct in saying that nuclear power is 
> managed so irresponsibly that, in practice, it has world-threatening 
> side effects.
>
> The issue, then, is whether nuclear power and renewable sources can be 
> developed in such a tightly controlled and secure manner that the 
> considerable dangers of nuclear power can be kept under control.
>
>
>   
It appears this has already been addressed. Here's a great article on 
Pebble Bed Modular Reactors which eliminate many of the concerns you have.
http://www.physorg.com/news8956.html

The only thing I can't seem to find info on is the energy cost and 
processes used to make the pebbles in the first place.
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:10:23 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:10:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804010910n26139dc1kee677dff3eefcbb4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> This looks to me like another ideological kneejerk. PJ's point (I
> believe) is that what people seem to refer to as the US free market
> is generally--I might prefer "frequently" and "importantly" NOT A
> FREE MARKET but (read her lips) "government/corporate collusion."

There are some on this list who could use a little femoral nerve
deadening right around their patella.  Stop looking for commies under
my bed, Lee.  All you'll find there are dust bunnies.

Thank you, Damien, for responding while I was out: yes, my point is
not advocating a specific replacement.  I'm not sure that a
hierarchical system of human governance is capable of truly free
markets, since corruption seems to be the flip side of humanity's
managerial coin.  There were kickbacks, secret deals, war profiteering
and manipulation of the populace in Mesopotamia.  Today is just more
of the same on a grander scale.

My original statement is a recognition that in my particular political
culture, there's no free market and most likely won't be any time
soon, since 1) the military-industrial-congressional complex
(Eisenhower's original phrase before Congress twisted his arm to drop
'congressional' before his famously observant farewell broadcast) is
alive and well and the basis of the US economy; 2) the only people in
corporate or governmental America I see loudly touting free markets
with their blowhorns are those who take advantage of the fact of its
absence -- meaning what they call the creation of such are anything
but; 3) the revolving door from industry to government and back again
ensures that corporate agendas are the government's priority until
citizens yell loudly enough and sometimes, not even then; and 4) the
people who make the laws are the people who benefit from them and visa
versa.  And that ain't you 'n me, buster.

The bigger problem is that the populace doesn't care enough to look.
If you want to spend some time dumpster diving, the Transactional
Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University tracks federal
expenditures.  You'll see where your money really goes, if you can
read between the lines:
http://trac.syr.edu/
Here's a sample summary report on the Dept. of Homeland Security:
http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/178/
Sadly the Pentagon's expenditures (the lion's share of tax money) are
not a part of the project.  What a report that would be.

Finally, the populace doesn't like to feel like a schmuck.  So it's
human nature to bury our heads in the sand or cling to the sinking
mast of outdated political ideologies promoted by our leaders.

None of this is news.  It's simply reality.  As Deep Throat said,
"Follow the money."  Unfortunately, it's never been truer.  And
there's no magic wand to make that pesky aspect of human governance
irrelevant any time soon.  As long as money changes hands under the
proverbial table (or even over it, in the form of campaign
contributions), determining who sells what to whom and for how much,
your beloved free market is doomed.  As it always was.  Or perhaps a
better statement is that it never could exist; it was a mirage, a
figment in Homo economicus' idealized, ever-rational,
never-found-on-this-planet mind.

Wait a second... maybe that's why Lee and others like him are on a
transhumanist list... he wants us all to have a free market neural
transplant, so the dream of Homo economicus could become a reality!
Now if we could only find the part of the brain that governs free
markets...  ;-)

PJ


From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:11:21 2008
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:11:21 -0300
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <011a01c89413$07d04bc0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>



> "Henrique Moraes Machado" <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>
>
>> What about geothermal?
>
John Clark> It might be interesting if you live in Iceland, but most of us 
don't.

As I said, dry-hot-rock bed geothermal seems straightforward enough. You dig 
3 to 4 km till you reach a really hot rock. Pour water down and collect the 
vapour. No volcanoes or geisers needed (you build your own geiser). I've 
even posted a link some days ago. 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 16:10:36 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:10:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien writes

> At 03:11 PM 3/31/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>>[PJ:]
>> > BTW, Lee, in my research on government/corporate collusion, this
>> > behavior is the rule, not the exception.  So much for free markets.
>>
>>"So much for free markets"?  Perhaps you can point out a few cases
>>from history where some other system worked better to "distribute
>>scarce resources which have alternate uses".  [...]
>>So, PJ, given a free hand, just how would or should a replacement
>>for the market be devised?
> 
> This looks to me like another ideological kneejerk. PJ's point (I 
> believe) is that what people seem to refer to as the US free market 
> is generally--I might prefer "frequently" and "importantly" NOT A 
> FREE MARKET but (read her lips) "government/corporate collusion."

Well, if that's the true emphasis here, then thanks for pointing it
out. It follows that you all should announce yourselves as
"free market enthusiasts" and "free market proponents". You
should phrase your condemnation of the above as "government
interference and intrusion" in the workings of the free market,
or of free market capitalism.

But you never, never put it that way, do you?  Why is that?

No, it's *always* phrased by those with a history of left-leaning
politics as though something is wrong with the free-market itself,
as if somehow if we just perhaps elect people with the "right
stuff" they can take control and make everything right. Won't
happen, of course.

Okay---assuming for just a nanosecond that there is no problem
with language, and that you're not still all reeling consciously or
unconsciously from the demise of Communism and the proven
poverty-creating socialisms of one kind or another---just what
are your concrete proposals?

What about this one:  we must make an effort to REMOVE
as many laws as possible that interfere with truly free market
activity. Lobbyists fighting for government largess must be
countered, and the government power and wealth over which
they're fighting must not be taken from the people in the first
place.

I do realize, as you know from my last post, that such
a process must be gingerly applied, and that only gradually
can many government "oversight" functions be replaced by
voluntary ones. 

Just make it clear how you'd like things to move, instead of
just complaining.

Thanks,
Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 16:19:16 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:19:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <277310.58630.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01dd01c89414$30322ab0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Lee said
> 
>> [Concerning the following simple inquiry under the hypothesis
>> that a following a devastating plague, a certain "lunatic" now 
>> living in a mental institution in the U.S. who believes himself
>> to be the same person as Napoleon I of France, is the sole
>> survivor on Earth]
>>
>>      The Emperor Napoleon (1769- ), formerly of France, but
>>      now living in a certain city in the U.S., turned out to be the
>>      last living human on Earth?
>> 
>> Well, is that true or false? 
> 
> Sometimes matters don't divide up neatly into those two words.

Why, naturally, of course.  Haven't you heard that there are "shades
of gray"?  Or rather, perhaps you suppose that some of us have
never heard the phrase, or mastered the notion of a continuum.

But seriously, does this mean that you *also* do not lean one way
or another towards accepting or rejecting the above statement? 

> In fact, probably most of the time [matters don't divide up
> neatly into those two words].

Oh?  An assertion by you?  May I infer that you believe your assertion
to be true, or would that also fall into the category of things that cannot
be so simply characterized as "true" or "false"?

But then, there I go again.  Asking for yes or no....  :-)

Lee



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:30:15 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:30:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804010930k54d35128n2ad925c79869eef3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:42 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
>  "Henrique Moraes Machado" <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>
>
> > What about geothermal?
>
> It might be interesting if you live in Iceland, but most of us don't.

They already do it there and did before 1972, when I was there with my
family watching Fisher beat Spassky.  To a seven year old girl from
NY, it was fascinating to be in buildings completely warmed by the
Earth back then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Iceland

However, there is a big movement in green construction to tap into
geothermal power anywhere.  Granted, this building was built by an
architect for himself as an example of what was possible (he died
unexpectedly a year after its completion and it's been sold since):

http://matrix.millersamuel.com/?p=376

I studied his plans and was astounded by the depth of the geothermal
tap, especially knowing what I do about the tunnel systems under
Manhattan.  It's amazing he was able to pull this off in this location
and that the City of NY supported him.

PJ


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Tue Apr  1 16:34:32 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 12:34:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com> <47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:
> 
> 
> Richard Loosemore wrote:

>> The issue, then, is whether nuclear power and renewable sources can be 
>> developed in such a tightly controlled and secure manner that the 
>> considerable dangers of nuclear power can be kept under control.
>>
> It appears this has already been addressed. Here's a great article on 
> Pebble Bed Modular Reactors which eliminate many of the concerns you have.
> http://www.physorg.com/news8956.html
> 
> The only thing I can't seem to find info on is the energy cost and 
> processes used to make the pebbles in the first place.

I very much agree:  this looks like a promising way to go.

However, my concern is mostly with the procedures and management 
infrastructure surrounding such plants.  The technology is improving, 
but people (especially malicious people) find ways to do stupid, 
dangerous or malevolent things with the technology, so what matters most 
of all is researching the management around the reactors, to find the 
best way to stop problems from coming out of left field.

For example, the original scientists and engineers devised safety 
measures to ensure nothing bad could happen in places like Chernobyl and 
Bhopal, but after a while the management on the ground lost interest or 
tried to cut costs, with the result that (e.g.) workers in Chernobyl 
were routinely doing such things as carrying open buckets of radioactive 
waste around by hand.

Even with the pebble-bed reactors, what matters is the unexpected 
gotchas lying hidden away in the system as a whole (people plus technology).

Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
the captains of industry.


Richard Loosemore


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:39:05 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:39:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401011907.0241df00@satx.rr.com>
References: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401011907.0241df00@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804010939o64d32dafn91d21844d4374ce5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> The following name would be ideal for an Aussie site but probably
> nowhere else on the planet, alas:
> bee-buggered.com

Oh, Damien, I needed a laugh today.  And I got a big one.  Thanks so much!!!

PJ


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 16:46:15 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:46:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <552780.81939.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><f7bfe5740803281001l7ee92bbbsf5bc57f1c4da531a@mail.gmail.com><f7bfe5740803281009h5b4b80e4td181d61e971b7700@mail.gmail.com><00d301c892d7$57db8f90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f7bfe5740803310741i2e4dff17k80f395646e3eed49@mail.gmail.com><019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c89418$693a8d30$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jef writes

>>  We were closer back in the days when you'd agree that a 6 year
>>  old Alice was not the same person as the 86 year old Alice. But
>>  it seems to me that you are becoming increasingly vague and
>>  obscure.
> 
> On the contrary, I posted that little story about Aging Alice,
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2006-November/030182.html>,
> to show that the diachronic self entails /no/ difference of identity
> for the person or their society -- to the extent that agency is
> maintained.

Your Alice example is very much a step in the right direction. You
describe below the changes that occur to someone who we know
as Alice in your story.

To summarize what you've written below, let me excerpt

> Personal identity is a function of the extent to which an agent is
> perceived to act on behalf of a (personal) entity.
> 
> Regardless of changes in physical form; function lost or enhanced;
> memories lost, gained, modified or even "made up"; values cherished
> and then left behind, emotional response changing over minutes, hours,
> weeks, years; spatial change, temporal change, spatio-temporal
> replicas... None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
> extent it impacts agency.

Okay:  "None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
extent that it impacts agency."  Your continued emphasis and
apparent reliance on certain particular words like "agency" 
does create the suspicion that you lack other ways of describing
what you believe. 

So we are to conclude that this Alice is the same person---or,
perhaps shares the same personal identity---or, perhaps "the
original Alice still survives"---or, perhaps.... please do supply
other descriptions that don't use the word "agency".  Okay,
so I'll assume that the answer is "yes" to my suggested rephrasing
right there in this paragraph.

Here is another example:  Joe Glenn is a typical American Midwestern
boy who is very much into video games and sports, and doing his
best conscientiously on his school work.  Upon graduation from
high school, he enlists in the Marine Corps, gains weight, and
eventually becomes a drill instructor. He's not that interested 
anymore in visiting his little home town, and he seldom even
sees his family more than once in five years.  Without using the
word "agency", can you guess as to whether  (a) the original
Joe is still alive? (b) Joe has become a different person?  (c)
Joe has changed, but is still has the same personal identity?
and, if possible, other descriptions that would help us understand
your notion of "personal identity".

Now does the answer to that change if Joe adopts a different
name, now becoming "Mack Sullivan"?  Is the answer affected
if it's revealed that he has continued keeping the same journal
that he started in high school, and that he enjoys reading his
old journal entries, that he's still very much into the same video
games as before, and keeps in touch with the same gangs of
on-line game enthusiasts that he did before?

I'm not trying to expose any shortcomings in your views here;
just trying to understand how you'd phrase the evolution of
this human being.

Oh---and one more thing---unlike your posts, I'll spare the
insulting condescension of implying how hopeless it seems 
that your meandering intellect.... oops!  :-)  Well, I'm not
going to waste bandwidth with assaults on your ways of
thinking, or at least I'll keep it to a bare minimum. You 
should consider doing the same.

Lee

> I showed how Alice as a young girl, Alice as a young adult, Alice as a
> mature adult, and even Alice in old age could have substantial, even
> conflicting, differences in their memories, values, functions and
> ...
> operating according to principles outside your model, that you've
> chosen to ignore -- apparently because to do so would undermine the
> Key to Personal Survival you've been so tightly grasping and carefully
> polishing all these years.  You can't possibly come up with even an
> approximate function for relating physical/functional/pattern
> divergence....
> ...
> Physical/functional/pattern similarity is merely *correlated in our
> experience* with identity because it's the simplest, most probable
> example of personal agency, with that probability approaching absolute
> certainty as all differences approach indiscernibility.
> 
> Personal identity is not a function of physical/functional/pattern
> similarity -- that's only a special case.
> Personal identity is a function of the extent to which an agent is
> perceived to act on behalf of a (personal) entity.
> 
> Regardless of changes in physical form; function lost or enhanced;
> memories lost, gained, modified or even "made up"; values cherished
> and then left behind, emotional response changing over minutes, hours,
> weeks, years; spatial change, temporal change, spatio-temporal
> replicas... None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
> extent it impacts agency.
> ....
> realized I've said it all before.
> 
> When will I learn?




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 16:32:18 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:32:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <p06230901c4177eff2cc5@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

>...On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
> 
> Dear Spike,
> 
> A friend of mine returned from Arizona carrying a large jar 
> of local honey; she told me that there was no decline in the 
> bees in Arizona...

Thanks Amara!  Good.  A Texan friend contacted me recently and said the bees
are healthy there too.  The locals here in Taxifornia have been hit hard, as
have the Oregonians.  I have a beekeeper friend in Washington state, but
haven't heard back from him...

> Google Maps might help:
> 
> http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2000/02/astronomical-observat
> ories-on-google.html
> ... Amara

Thanks, cool.  Amara, do you want to be in the offlist bee group?  You can
be our queen.  {8-]  No forget that, we would be overwhelmed by yahoos
applying to be drones.  {8^D

There are two things I am studying with this exercise.  One is the bees, the
other is how information flows in the internet age.  That is *fundamentally
different* now than it was in our misspent youth, ja?  The internet provides
a tool that changes everything.  I see it as something that will play a
major role over the next two to five decades in the coming transition in
energy sources.

spike




From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 17:04:23 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:04:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com><1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek>
	<47EFE957.70200@pobox.com><8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com><a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com><8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
	<580930c20804010437u7de5855fyc0d6216b996a6b11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022b01c8941b$07ee1350$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Alex wrote

> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:52 AM, <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

> That occurred to to afterward, but it makes you wonder what if
> anything the parents would do about it?

Alex is referring to his description of the discouraging, offensive,
and uncivilized conduct of some local boys who'd been stealing
apples from his apple tree somewhere in England, and who
generated the most profane insults they knew when he yelled
at them to stop.

> After all, they are the ones that have been responsible for the
> moral education of these young un's. Haven't they done well
> so far !

But the truth is that boys have been doing this to their elders
for thousands of years. In the opening pages of Mark Twain's
"A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", he describes
himself, transported somehow back in time, riding into town
on a horse or donkey or something, and being jeered and
pummeled by rocks by the local (9th century) boys. Says he,
"So I had to get down and deal with them just as in my day,
(the 19th century) )", presumably trying to chase or scare
them or something, or to throw rocks back at them.

By and large, I believe that children are *better* behaved today
than when I was a child in the 50s, and that was a lot better than
the stories I heard my father tell of childhood in the tens and
twenties. Take "Trick or Treat", for example.  In the bad old
days, there really was a rather mean Trick that would get played
on anyone who didn't provide the candy-loot that was demanded.
Little kids today scarcely know what the phrase even means.

But I'm speaking of a Californian who can actually remember
at age 7 noticing that the kids were nicer in southern California 
than they had been in small town Nebraska. I think that the
newer the communities, the less corruption overall, and the
better behavior of children. 

(Still, I totally agree with you that such behavior is not acceptable,
and that whatever improvements---including getting their parents
or even the police involved---that might be effective should probably
be undertaken. No reason we can't keep on improving our societies.)

Lee

> Likewise I think the law is flaccid when it comes to this kind of
> behaviour in kids this age. Teachers are no longer allowed to
> deal out discipline and even parents are limited and watched like
> hawks under the guise of 'protecting kids from abuse'....
 


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 17:25:06 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:25:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why do we get personal?  (Was EP and Peak Oil)
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30804010910n26139dc1kee677dff3eefcbb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <023801c8941d$d9c778b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

PJ writes

> There are some on this list who could use a little femoral nerve
> deadening right around their patella.  Stop looking for commies
> under my bed, Lee.  All you'll find there are dust bunnies.

and then

> Wait a second... maybe that's why Lee and others like him are on a
> transhumanist list... he wants us all to have a free market neural
> transplant, so the dream of Homo economicus could become a reality!
> Now if we could only find the part of the brain that governs free
> markets...  ;-)

(I admit readily that my complaint here is about something that is
nothing compared to the *really* ad hominem attacks that frequent
most mailing lists.)

But I'm reminded of what Margaret Thatcher said

     "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly 
     wounding because I think, well, if they attack one
     personally, it means they have not a single political
     argument left."

By contrast, I do not generally characterize my interlocutors
in negative ways, certainly not by name. True, I have sometimes
referred to "those of previously leftist dispositions who...", etc.,
but it's not quite the same thing, of course.

Is it a form of insecurity, or just bad manners?  The condescension
from several people on this list who I'm currently talking to looks a
little pathetic and desperate to me, honestly. It's also as though
they're perhaps just not very good at keeping their disgust at certain
*ideas* from translating into disdain for certain *persons*.

I request that we try harder to keep the focus on ideas, to try
to avoid making these issues personal, and to avoid general
negative characterizations of others.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 17:36:56 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:36:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com><62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com><015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <023901c8941f$f6375ea0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Eliezer writes

> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
> government.

You're preaching to the choir!  Yes, indeed, I couldn't agree more.

> As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon emissions 
> from coal plants that should never have been built.
> 
> It is not necessarily possible for the "free market" to swoop in and 
> fix these problems after they have had 40 years to get worse.

Oh, absolutely correct again.  No amount of allegiance to capitalism
or the ideals of a truly free market can address the manifold problems
of excess government interference in economic matters. Only a 
concerted understanding by the populace of democratic countries
of the basics of sound economics, and a willingness to abandon
"government" as the solution to every purported problem or "crisis"
can effectively address the problem.

> The "free market" has *already* been stomped on, and the lead time to 
> fix things is not instantaneous.
> 
> If I put it that way, do you see how much trouble we may be in?

The "trouble we're in" is only relative, in my opinion. Yes, it's very sad
to see the foolish and ignorant ways that we have been economically held
back from where we should have been. First move: stop all government
subsidies of ethanol, solar power, wind power, and every other kind of
development; honestly gained profit is the driver of the creation of wealth.

Second move, stop huge government "investments" of  massive funds that
create the political corruption, the "military-industrial complex", the "education
complex", the "agriculture-industrial complex", and create so many, many
hungry and avaricious lobbyists, and so on and on.  Perhaps not overnight,
but just as soon as can be reasonably managed.

Lee



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 18:20:33 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:20:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>

At 09:10 AM 4/1/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:

>assuming for just a nanosecond that... you're not still all reeling 
>consciously or
>unconsciously from the demise of Communism

I thought PJ was stretching a bit with her counter-gibe about people 
looking for Commies under her bed; nope, there it is. Amazing.

>and the proven poverty-creating socialisms of one kind or another

What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven 
my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical health 
system, funded from taxation together with private insurance, that 
would support me in Australia.##

"Socialism" is an absurd would-be "red-baiting" description, but it's 
presumably the sort of scare label that frightens many working USians 
away from demanding such a health system. (But not US medicos, it 
seems: the latest study showed "More than half of U.S. doctors now 
favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third 
oppose the idea, according to a survey published on Monday." ( 
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3143203520080331 )

Damien Broderick
##I await the inevitable reply (although not from Lee): "Why doncha 
go back there, then, ya Commie stooge?"





From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 18:01:37 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:01:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <148975.42577.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, very good. The point is that true and false are abstract human categories (just like selfhood...and Napolean). Reality has no truck with such things. We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be denied as valid by another. There is no "true" or "false" out there. There is no Napolean out there. It's a mental construct which people define in different ways to suit different purposes. It's entirely irrelevant how we answer the question, it changes nothing. A clear cut answer will serve only to obfuscate matters further by confusing people into thinking that there is such black and whiteness.

Hope this makes things less muddy ;)


and apologies for sending this straight to your own address initially Lee - Yahoo's being inconsistent with this list for some reason.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 5:19:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood

Michael writes

> Lee said
> 
>> [Concerning the following simple inquiry under the hypothesis
>> that a following a devastating plague, a certain "lunatic" now 
>> living in a mental institution in the U.S. who believes himself
>> to be the same person as Napoleon I of France, is the sole
>> survivor on Earth]
>>
>>      The Emperor Napoleon (1769- ), formerly of France, but
>>      now living in a certain city in the U.S., turned out to be the
>>      last living human on Earth?
>> 
>> Well, is that true or false? 
> 
> Sometimes matters don't divide up neatly into those two words.

Why, naturally, of course.  Haven't you heard that there are "shades
of gray"?  Or rather, perhaps you suppose that some of us have
never heard the phrase, or mastered the notion of a continuum.

But seriously, does this mean that you *also* do not lean one way
or another towards accepting or rejecting the above statement? 

> In fact, probably most of the time [matters don't divide up
> neatly into those two words].

Oh?  An assertion by you?  May I infer that you believe your assertion
to be true, or would that also fall into the category of things that cannot
be so simply characterized as "true" or "false"?

But then, there I go again.  Asking for yes or no....  :-)

Lee

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 18:11:04 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:11:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804010756g181cb5bke7d9b6078f83f612@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804011839.m31IdHq6024593@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ... On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
> 
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:21 PM, BillK wrote:
> > Good news for Spike!
 
> > 
> <http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_i
> > d=218393082>
> >
> 
> 
> I've just realised that my comment could be misinterpreted.
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that Spike is getting chemotherapy!

Cool, I didn't even think of that interpretation.  {8^]  Thanks Billk.  I
currently have two (extended) family members undergoing cancer treatments
including radiation and chemo, but neither have ever done CR, and I am
pretty sure neither would be open to the idea unfortunately.

It makes sense to me that chemotherapy would work better for CRers: the dose
must be very carefully controlled.  My colleague's wife perished because
they gave her a little too much of the toxin when they thought she may have
actually been recovering from the breast cancer.  {8-[  

> I just meant that because Spike already does calorie 
> restriction, in the unlikely event that he ever does need 
> chemo, then he has a head start over everyone else... BillK

It seems to me that different types of tissue would react differently to a
particular level of toxin, so the medics would need to estimate the ratio of
muscle, bone, flab and other to get the dose right.  If the flab level is
way low, that job would be easier?

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 18:11:04 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:11:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the bee problem and a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
ablainey at aol.com
	Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:33 PM
	To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
	Subject: Re: [ExI] The Bee Problem
	
	
	...Interesting, I'd also like to know if this is worldwide or
America's specific...

This first round of the bee site effort will be US-specific, but Europeans
if you wish to participate, make notes of the bee population and where you
live.  The resolution I planned for the US would be at the county level.  A
county in the states is typically about 50 to 100 km on a side.  Is there
something analogous to a county in Europe and Australia?  If not, a city
will do for location, or GPS coordinates.  



	...You said 'We are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.' I can see
this being a definite problem if all bee types are declining. but what if
other species like solitary bee's, bumble etc are not effected? These and
other pollinators might increase in number to fill the gap?	Alex
	


Alex, the bumblebee is a pollinator, but not an adequate substitute for
honeybees.  If you are in a position to do it, watch a bumblebee, and
estimate how much work she gets done per unit time, by counting the number
of blossoms visited per minute, number of minutes before she leaves, how
many total bumblebees are on a particular bush at a time, etc.  It's about a
tenth as effective as a honeybee, and there are far fewer of them usually.
You will see that bumblebees are lazy bugs.  Well, everything is lazy
compared to a honeybee.  Honeybees will swarm onto a blossoming orange tree
by the skerjillions, and really make tracks from one blossom to another.
They seem to go in fast forward compared to all other pollinators, such as
flies and humming birds.  Honeybees do more pollinating than all other bugs
combined.

Your comment gave me an interesting idea however.  We could look at the
possibility of breeding alternate pollinators, possibly non-flyers, such as
some hardy type of roach for instance.  They stay nearby, they breed like
mormons, and for all their undeserved reputation as diseased carriers, I
have never seen a sick roach.  If we develop crawling pollinators we might
have less of a problem with their being smashed on car windows and might be
easier to keep them healthy.  

What would really be cool is if we could somehow process the roaches into
food at the end of the pollination season, or perhaps feed them to the hogs.
Of course it does have some psychological factors (...fruit trees black with
creepy roaches, ewww...) but we will overcome that hangup once we get
sufficiently hungry.

spike


  



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr  1 18:47:46 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:47:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

John K Clark wrote
>Damien, I read your link but frankly I am not
>impressed. It's a fact that
>there are not many organizations that can provide the
>services that Halliburton can and do so in a war
>zone, and so they charge accordingly. I
>can't see where they did anything Enron level bad
>much less committed a government grade horror. I'm
>not saying Halliburton is incapable of being
>a little naughty from time to time, but compared with
>routine governmentgrade evil it's a little like a
>prison guard at Auschwitz raging about the
>injustice of it all because somebody put a whoopee
>cushion on his chair.

>  John K Clark

Halliburton is hired to help do two things - rebuild
Iraq's oil industry and perform logistical support to
the US military. Rebuilding Iraq's oil industry could
be done by a great many oil companies if they were
given decent security backup. As for logistical
support - true, not many commercial organisations can
do what Halliburton can. However, there's are two
radical alternatives to hiring contractors at fat
rates:
1)reinstate the draft and have young men truck the
stuff through Iraq much like their dads did for
Vietnam - not an electorally popular move, but making
strong use of America's resources.
2)Having allies. This may come as a radical view, but
if the Bush administration had spent a little more
time building an international coalition, he might
have been able to have more areas of Iraq being
handled by non-US forces.
 Afghanistan has a great many NATO countries involved
- OK, the coalition creaks a little as the
US,UK,Canada and Belgium take all the danger zones
(and the UK gets to take on the world heroin
production capital) while other countries take on the
more stable parts, but it works. Many countries are
persuaded that it's worth putting in effort for a
stable Afghanistan. 
 If this had been done for Iraq, there'd be less need
for Halliburton and the cost of the war would be
partially born by other nations and the overall total
might be lower, as it would avoid some of the
"contractor corruption" widely reported in the media.
 Of course, to do that would have required
negotiation, taking time and actually having credible
intelligence to go to war on. Perhaps someone a few
years back should have thought "You know, this
intelligence isn't that strong and most nations aren't
buying it. Why are we buying it? Are we that sure it's
worth losing thousands of our troops over?"

Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
project that they think would help the world, advance
human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
got to wonder at the waste of it all.

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 20:21:05 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:21:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com> <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com> <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>


> I very much agree:  this looks like a promising way to go.
>
> However, my concern is mostly with the procedures and management 
> infrastructure surrounding such plants.  The technology is improving, 
> but people (especially malicious people) find ways to do stupid, 
> dangerous or malevolent things with the technology, so what matters most 
> of all is researching the management around the reactors, to find the 
> best way to stop problems from coming out of left field.
>   
True. But stupid and malicious people are no reason to remain 
stationary. If they were, we would still be in the stone age. I'm afraid 
we're stuck with those people. So far there have been plenty of them who 
have found ways to do dangerous and malevolent things with fertilizer 
and gun powder. We just need to do the best we can and move forward.
> For example, the original scientists and engineers devised safety 
> measures to ensure nothing bad could happen in places like Chernobyl and 
> Bhopal, but after a while the management on the ground lost interest or 
> tried to cut costs, with the result that (e.g.) workers in Chernobyl 
> were routinely doing such things as carrying open buckets of radioactive 
> waste around by hand.
>
> Even with the pebble-bed reactors, what matters is the unexpected 
> gotchas lying hidden away in the system as a whole (people plus technology).
>   
True again. But remember, that plant was devised in a communist country, 
not a free market with a free flow of information. Such a thing would be 
tough to pull off these days. Of course, new and exciting things to pull 
off are always just around the corner, but again, it shouldn't be a 
barrier, only a place to stop, ponder, and do our best. Hindsight is 
always going to be 20/20, but the only other possible way to go is to 
remain stagnant and I fear that option more.
> Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
> locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
> industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
> the captains of industry.
>
>
>   
There is however some subtle truth to this. I wouldn't say many are 
locked into a "mindset" about this. I think Eli was just acknowledging 
that the modern day environmentalist movement is indeed the main reason 
nuclear power has been much ignored while we continue to burn off our 
fossil fuels. There is some good debate here as to whether or not global 
warming is caused by these emissions or even whether or not global 
warming itself is bad. But for the most part everyone here knows that an 
alternative needs to be found long before the oil runs out so this issue 
trumps global warming. I personally like the green people - until they 
stand in the way of progress. But many get their priorities out of whack 
so while Eli's statement may not apply to everyone that is "green, it 
certainly applies to many.



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 19:45:59 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 12:45:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
> project that they think would help the world, advance
> human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
> them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
> got to wonder at the waste of it all.

Actually, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E.
Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda J. Bilmes, that number is $3
Trillion so far -- and that's supposedly an "excessively conservative"
estimate.  And it's rising.

http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-roane30mar30,0,3004376.story

PJ


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 20:00:13 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:00:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804011300icfe04a7gdba9bf4be4d9b40e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:45 PM, PJ Manney wrote:
>  Actually, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E.
>  Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda J. Bilmes, that number is $3
>  Trillion so far -- and that's supposedly an "excessively conservative"
>  estimate.  And it's rising.
>
>  http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-roane30mar30,0,3004376.story
>


Well, it's not actually wasted, is it?
It's making more friends of the government into billionaires.


BillK


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 21:48:12 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 17:48:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <01a601c8937d$cf0bc7f0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <01a601c8937d$cf0bc7f0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804011448q1818a10k61dc3a6fea81c4e4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>
>
> For example, the most efficient means of capital formation in
> western civilization appears to be the development of the limited
> liability corporation.  Unfortunately, without supervision from
> some sovereign state (you see, I hate to the use the "g---" word),
> company managers take advantage of stock holders to such an
> extent that sooner or later funds dry up, thus retarding economic
> growth.  Institutions such as the SEC are therefore necessary,
> so far as I have been able to determine.


### Apostasy!

There is good evidence that private stock exchanges are superior to
government organizations at enforcing proper accounting to alleviate the
agent-principal problem in limited liability corporations. Stock exchanges
rely on long term persistence to attract customers, and that means both
companies and shareholders. As long as there is sufficient transparency and
alternative conduits for information (e.g. press, blogs, whistleblowers), as
well as competition between exchanges, the owners of stock exchanges stand
to gain by discouraging dishonest companies from listing. If the misbehavior
of one company on their list becomes public, all other companies suffer,
since potential shareholders will look for another exchange that is not
tainted by scandal, and their volume of trade as well as income, will go
down. Companies also want to have high liquidity of their stock, which means
they prefer exchanges with lots of potential investors, and so there is a
strong incentive to maximize volume of trade over long periods of time.
Self-regulation of industries to minimize transaction costs (which entails
combating fraud) is a natural development in any situation with competition,
transparency and long-term persistence. Laugh at me if you want but the
Chinese stock exchanges are an example of emerging self-regulation.

The biggest problem with the government here is that it frequently pre-empts
the development of such self-regulatory mechanisms, and imposes complex,
costly, one-size-fits-all rules with poor feedback and frequently is subject
to "regulatory capture" - the gaining of control over regulators by some of
the regulated entities. A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley, which imposed
huge costs that disproportionately afflict smaller businesses, and thus
serve to limit the competition against entrenched large companies - exactly
the companies that lobby the government and hire former SEC employees (the
"revolving door" phenomenon).

So whenever a government official tells you to be afraid of freedom and to
give him more control of your life, be afraid of him. He is not your friend.

Rafal
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From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 00:15:48 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:15:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
	<47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com> <47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:

>> Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
>> locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
>> industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
>> the captains of industry.
>>
> There is however some subtle truth to this. I wouldn't say many are 
> locked into a "mindset" about this. I think Eli was just acknowledging 
> that the modern day environmentalist movement is indeed the main reason 
> nuclear power has been much ignored while we continue to burn off our 
> fossil fuels. There is some good debate here as to whether or not global 
> warming is caused by these emissions or even whether or not global 
> warming itself is bad. But for the most part everyone here knows that an 
> alternative needs to be found long before the oil runs out so this issue 
> trumps global warming. I personally like the green people - until they 
> stand in the way of progress. But many get their priorities out of whack 
> so while Eli's statement may not apply to everyone that is "green, it 
> certainly applies to many.

Sorry, but I just don't accept the analysis.

In the 1960s and 70s the greens lobbied hard for less nuclear power and 
massive funding of sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.

Then Three Mile Island and Chernobyl happened, and nuclear was suddenly 
scary as hell.  Overnight, no new plants.

Then the greens continued to lobby hard for massive funding of 
sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.

Then 9/11 and Iraq happened and oil started increasing in price at a 
rate that was actually noticeable, and now suddenly nuclear is back on 
the agenda.

If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green 
lobby, then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained 
back of a whipping boy.




Richard Loosemore





From max at maxmore.com  Wed Apr  2 01:00:45 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:00:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <023901c8941f$f6375ea0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<023901c8941f$f6375ea0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <20080402010047.NPQG29946.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>

I apologize for what is, essentially, a "me too" post. However, since 
I've rejected the "libertarian" label as too restrictive, I'm a 
little worried that some might think me a soft, pinko, small-brained, 
statist thug.

So, I just want to say, in response to the comments by Lee and Eli:

I AGREE! (i.e., ME TOO)

Or, to drive the point home, with a blatant disregard for political 
correctness:

MORE NUCLEAR POWER!

MORE FREE MARKETS!

MORE RATIONALITY!

Before anyone's knees jerk, sending them flying into my face... of 
course the above three don't *necessarily* go together. But they *do* 
go together right now, as it happens. My view on that reality 
apparently agrees with my views as a 15-year old in England, when I 
was (as far as I can tell) the only member of CND (Campaign for 
Nuclear Disarmament) who enthusiastically supported the expansion of 
nuclear power.

Max


At 12:36 PM 4/1/2008, Lee Corbin wrote:
>Eliezer writes
>
> > Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power
> > as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in
> > government.
>
>You're preaching to the choir!  Yes, indeed, I couldn't agree more.
>
> > As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon emissions
> > from coal plants that should never have been built.
> >
> > It is not necessarily possible for the "free market" to swoop in and
> > fix these problems after they have had 40 years to get worse.
>
>Oh, absolutely correct again.  No amount of allegiance to capitalism
>or the ideals of a truly free market can address the manifold problems
>of excess government interference in economic matters. Only a
>concerted understanding by the populace of democratic countries
>of the basics of sound economics, and a willingness to abandon
>"government" as the solution to every purported problem or "crisis"
>can effectively address the problem.
>
> > The "free market" has *already* been stomped on, and the lead time to
> > fix things is not instantaneous.
> >
> > If I put it that way, do you see how much trouble we may be in?
>
>The "trouble we're in" is only relative, in my opinion. Yes, it's very sad
>to see the foolish and ignorant ways that we have been economically held
>back from where we should have been. First move: stop all government
>subsidies of ethanol, solar power, wind power, and every other kind of
>development; honestly gained profit is the driver of the creation of wealth.
>
>Second move, stop huge government "investments" of  massive funds that
>create the political corruption, the "military-industrial complex", 
>the "education
>complex", the "agriculture-industrial complex", and create so many, many
>hungry and avaricious lobbyists, and so on and on.  Perhaps not overnight,
>but just as soon as can be reasonably managed.
>
>Lee
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From max at maxmore.com  Wed Apr  2 01:07:15 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:07:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>

At 01:20 PM 4/1/2008, Damien wrote:
>At 09:10 AM 4/1/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>
> >and the proven poverty-creating socialisms of one kind or another
>
>What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven
>my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical health
>system, funded from taxation together with private insurance, that
>would support me in Australia.##

Damien, you Communist stooge, you. (Joking. You live in Texas. How 
red can you be?) You're right. The US medical care system is 
seriously messed up. But why do you reflexively assume more 
government is the answer? I expect you'd be willing to grant that the 
US system is very very far from a free market. Are you sure that a 
true free market in medical care wouldn't be a major improvement.

Answer me with a "yes, of course, you market-lovin' bozo", and it 
might spur me to finally put together a piece (for my brand spanking 
new blog) on what steps toward such a system might be.

>"Socialism" is an absurd would-be "red-baiting" description, but it's
>presumably the sort of scare label that frightens many working USians
>away from demanding such a health system. (But not US medicos, it
>seems: the latest study showed "More than half of U.S. doctors now
>favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third
>oppose the idea, according to a survey published on Monday." (
>http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3143203520080331 )

And, of course, U.S. doctors are SO smart about health economics that 
we should take this as the ultimate argument, right?

Max



Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr  2 03:13:17 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:13:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com> <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com> <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com> <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com>



Richard Loosemore wrote:
> Kevin Freels wrote:
>
>   
>>> Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
>>> locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
>>> industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
>>> the captains of industry.
>>>
>>>       
>> There is however some subtle truth to this. I wouldn't say many are 
>> locked into a "mindset" about this. I think Eli was just acknowledging 
>> that the modern day environmentalist movement is indeed the main reason 
>> nuclear power has been much ignored while we continue to burn off our 
>> fossil fuels. There is some good debate here as to whether or not global 
>> warming is caused by these emissions or even whether or not global 
>> warming itself is bad. But for the most part everyone here knows that an 
>> alternative needs to be found long before the oil runs out so this issue 
>> trumps global warming. I personally like the green people - until they 
>> stand in the way of progress. But many get their priorities out of whack 
>> so while Eli's statement may not apply to everyone that is "green, it 
>> certainly applies to many.
>>     
>
> Sorry, but I just don't accept the analysis.
>
> In the 1960s and 70s the greens lobbied hard for less nuclear power and 
> massive funding of sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>
> Then Three Mile Island and Chernobyl happened, and nuclear was suddenly 
> scary as hell.  Overnight, no new plants.
>
> Then the greens continued to lobby hard for massive funding of 
> sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>
> Then 9/11 and Iraq happened and oil started increasing in price at a 
> rate that was actually noticeable, and now suddenly nuclear is back on 
> the agenda.
>
> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green 
> lobby, then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained 
> back of a whipping boy.
>
>
>   
I see where you are coming from. And yes, markets are much more powerful 
than any activist group could be. It takes markets to get things done. 
Activists can only stop things from being done. It's two different 
things. We're not talking about what the green movement has 
accomplished. We are talking about what they have prevented. Ask some 
average people on the street sometime if they would like to see nuclear 
power plants spring up all over America as a solution to the oil 
problems. When they tell you "no", ask why. I am sure you will get an 
environmental argument long before you get a nuclear weapons or economic 
argument.
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From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr  2 03:20:04 2008
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:20:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F2FB64.7030809@mindspring.com>

If you don't already know about the semi-religious concept of "the 
Noosphere", see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere .

I am sure that I am a heavy user of the "just in time education" ability 
of the Web, especially Google.  I'd say it more than doubles my ability 
to develop things and ideas.

  - David

spike wrote:
> ...
> There are two things I am studying with this exercise.  One is the bees, the
> other is how information flows in the internet age.  That is *fundamentally
> different* now than it was in our misspent youth, ja?  The internet provides
> a tool that changes everything.  I see it as something that will play a
> major role over the next two to five decades in the coming transition in
> energy sources.
>   



From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr  2 03:37:51 2008
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:37:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
In-Reply-To: <200804011839.m31IdHq6024593@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804011839.m31IdHq6024593@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F2FF8F.1040007@mindspring.com>

spike wrote:
> ...
> currently have two (extended) family members undergoing cancer treatments
> including radiation and chemo, but neither have ever done CR, and I am
> pretty sure neither would be open to the idea unfortunately.
>   
The article describes not CR, but total fasting (well, presumably 
water), which is not hard to maintain for the 2 day period.  We probably 
evolved to sustain fasting frequently, and not to have 3 feasts a day 
every day.
> It seems to me that different types of tissue would react differently to a
> particular level of toxin, so the medics would need to estimate the ratio of
> muscle, bone, flab and other to get the dose right.  If the flab level is
> way low, that job would be easier?
>
> spike
>   
This is cooler than an overall change of sensitivity by all cells.  This 
changes the ratio of sensitivity between the healthy cells and the 
cancerous cells.  Imagine if the healthy cells became very inert and 
immune to the poison (chemo), but the cancer cells were killed by a high 
level of chemo.  Shazam!  Cancer cured!  Probably won't be that good, 
but it makes it easier to poison the cancer and save the healthy.

  - David



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 03:52:15 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:52:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] April 1 Google fun
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225100.057be6a8@satx.rr.com>

I suppose:

http://www.google.com/virgle/pioneer.html

http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html

http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/20080401_virgle.html



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 03:57:13 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:57:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <47F2FB64.7030809@mindspring.com>
References: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<47F2FB64.7030809@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225532.058697e0@satx.rr.com>

At 08:20 PM 4/1/2008 -0700, David C. Harris wrote:

>If you don't already know about the semi-religious concept of "the
>Noosphere", see
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere .

My god, of course, that's it! The bees are being uplifted ahead of us 
into Teilhard's Hive Mind (well, really, we should have expected it).

Damien Broderick




From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 05:38:30 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 01:38:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com> <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com>

> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green lobby,
> then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained
> back of a whipping boy.

Bullshit, the green lobby has caused a lot of evil in the world. They weep
about global warming but when somebody tries to build a nuclear power
plant that produces no green house gasses they oppose it. When somebody
tries to build a hydroelectric plant that produces no green house gasses
they say it will flood archeological sites and oppose it. When somebody
tries to build a wind farm that produces no green house gasses they say 
it's ugly and the blades might kill birds and they oppose it.

Right now thousands of tons of highly radioactive spent nuclear fuel rods
loaded with Plutonium are stored in hundreds of different poorly secured
makeshift locations scattered across the country. Why should that be when
there is the highly guarded state of the art Yucca Mountain repository for
nuclear waste in Nevada that is empty and designed specifically to store
those rods securely? I will tell you why it is not used, it is because the
green lobby lawyers pulled every trick in the book to prevent Yucca
Mountain from storing anything.

For example, they convinced a Federal court it was illegal to ship rods
there because the guarantee that no radiation would leak for 10,000 years
was too short; the court found credible evidence that in 270,000 years the
radiation just outside the fence would be 60 times higher than background.
Imagine if someone in the Paleolithic had told our Cro-Magnon semi human
ancestors 270,000 years ago during the Ice Age that they couldn't use that
new fangled thing called fire until they solved the problem of global
warming produced by greenhouse gasses and found a good substitute for
the finite supply of oil.

Yucca Mountain would provide excellent safety, but not perfect safety and
for them only perfection will do; so we end up with crappy safety. If
terrorists even get their hands on one of those rods we can thank those
saintly ever so noble environmentalists in their hybrid cars for it.

 John K Clark







From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr  2 06:40:35 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:40:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
References: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <009c01c8948c$755b5030$1fba1f97@archimede>

Spike, it seems there is a big problem also in Italy.
According to the http://www.mieliditalia.it/ 
association the decline (or extinction) of honey bee's, 
if not of all bee types, is due, for sure, to the new 
pesticides (neonicotinoids) by Bayer and Syngenta.
These pesticides are specifically used in certain
regions where the main production is corn. As far
as I understand you buy seeds already treated
with pesticides, from the beginning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoids
http://www.mieliditalia.it/n_apicoltori_fuga.htm 



From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  2 07:34:15 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 00:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <828634.33683.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Yes, very good. The point is that true and false are abstract human categories (just like selfhood...and Napolean). Reality has no truck with such things. We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be denied as valid by another. There is no "true" or "false" out there. There is no Napolean out there. It's a mental construct which people define in different ways to suit different purposes. It's entirely irrelevant how we answer the question, it changes nothing. A clear cut answer will serve only to obfuscate matters further by confusing people into thinking that there is such black and whiteness.

Hope this makes things less muddy ;)


and apologies for sending this straight to your own address initially again Lee - Yahoo's being inconsistent with this list for some reason.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 5:19:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood

Michael writes

> Lee said
> 
>> [Concerning the following simple inquiry under the hypothesis
>> that a following a devastating plague, a certain "lunatic" now 
>> living in a mental institution in the U.S. who believes himself
>> to be the same person as Napoleon I of France, is the sole
>> survivor on Earth]
>>
>>      The Emperor Napoleon (1769- ), formerly of France, but
>>      now living in a certain city in the U.S., turned out to be the
>>      last living human on Earth?
>> 
>> Well, is that true or false? 
> 
> Sometimes matters don't divide up neatly into those two words.

Why, naturally, of course.  Haven't you heard that there are "shades
of gray"?  Or rather, perhaps you suppose that some of us have
never heard the phrase, or mastered the notion of a continuum.

But seriously, does this mean that you *also* do not lean one way
or another towards accepting or rejecting the above statement? 

> In fact, probably most of the time [matters don't divide up
> neatly into those two words].

Oh?  An assertion by you?  May I infer that you believe your assertion
to be true, or would that also fall into the category of things that cannot
be so simply characterized as "true" or "false"?

But then, there I go again.  Asking for yes or no....  :-)

Lee

_______________________________________________
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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





      You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.





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      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 13:02:56 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:02:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] April 1 Google fun
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225100.057be6a8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225100.057be6a8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804020802.56967.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> [ExI] April 1 Google fun

Google has more funding than NASA.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 13:17:11 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:17:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
	<47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
	<47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com> <47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <47F38757.5080609@lightlink.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:
> 
> Richard Loosemore wrote:
>> Sorry, but I just don't accept the analysis.
>>
>> In the 1960s and 70s the greens lobbied hard for less nuclear power and 
>> massive funding of sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>>
>> Then Three Mile Island and Chernobyl happened, and nuclear was suddenly 
>> scary as hell.  Overnight, no new plants.
>>
>> Then the greens continued to lobby hard for massive funding of 
>> sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>>
>> Then 9/11 and Iraq happened and oil started increasing in price at a 
>> rate that was actually noticeable, and now suddenly nuclear is back on 
>> the agenda.
>>
>> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green 
>> lobby, then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained 
>> back of a whipping boy.
>>
>>
>>   
> I see where you are coming from. And yes, markets are much more powerful 
> than any activist group could be. It takes markets to get things done. 
> Activists can only stop things from being done.

Markets?  Eeek, Iyou have missed my point completely :-) :  it was 
people's brains that did it, not markets or green activism.  People saw 
catastrophic nuclear accidents caused by incompetence, then they drew 
conclusions.  Then they made it clear to the politicians that they would 
not tolerate any expansion of nuclear power.  The greens were irrelevant 
to the process because there was zero correlation between their activity 
and the shift in public opinion.


> It's two different 
> things. We're not talking about what the green movement has 
> accomplished. We are talking about what they have prevented. 


Markets get things done, and activists only *stop* things being done?

Hmmmmm.  The Kyoto Protocol was something that was accomplished, not 
something that was stopped.   Kyoto was not caused by market forces, but 
by activism.


> Ask some 
> average people on the street sometime if they would like to see nuclear 
> power plants spring up all over America as a solution to the oil 
> problems. When they tell you "no", ask why. I am sure you will get an 
> environmental argument long before you get a nuclear weapons or economic 
> argument.


But when you actually do ask those people, you will find a significant 
chunk of those who shout NIMBY! are green-haters.  Again, there is no 
correlation, surely.



Richard Loosemore


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 13:22:43 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:22:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
In-Reply-To: <012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
	<47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
	<012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <47F388A3.7090902@lightlink.com>

John K Clark wrote:
> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com>
> 
>> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green lobby,
>> then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained
>> back of a whipping boy.
> 
> Bullshit, the green lobby has caused a lot of evil in the world.

Hi John.

I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational, 
reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities of 
the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked in 
subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.

These are truly the people of the future, no?



Richard Loosemore

> They weep
> about global warming but when somebody tries to build a nuclear power
> plant that produces no green house gasses they oppose it. When somebody
> tries to build a hydroelectric plant that produces no green house gasses
> they say it will flood archeological sites and oppose it. When somebody
> tries to build a wind farm that produces no green house gasses they say 
> it's ugly and the blades might kill birds and they oppose it.
> 
> Right now thousands of tons of highly radioactive spent nuclear fuel rods
> loaded with Plutonium are stored in hundreds of different poorly secured
> makeshift locations scattered across the country. Why should that be when
> there is the highly guarded state of the art Yucca Mountain repository for
> nuclear waste in Nevada that is empty and designed specifically to store
> those rods securely? I will tell you why it is not used, it is because the
> green lobby lawyers pulled every trick in the book to prevent Yucca
> Mountain from storing anything.
> 
> For example, they convinced a Federal court it was illegal to ship rods
> there because the guarantee that no radiation would leak for 10,000 years
> was too short; the court found credible evidence that in 270,000 years the
> radiation just outside the fence would be 60 times higher than background.
> Imagine if someone in the Paleolithic had told our Cro-Magnon semi human
> ancestors 270,000 years ago during the Ice Age that they couldn't use that
> new fangled thing called fire until they solved the problem of global
> warming produced by greenhouse gasses and found a good substitute for
> the finite supply of oil.
> 
> Yucca Mountain would provide excellent safety, but not perfect safety and
> for them only perfection will do; so we end up with crappy safety. If
> terrorists even get their hands on one of those rods we can thank those
> saintly ever so noble environmentalists in their hybrid cars for it.
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 



From amara at amara.com  Wed Apr  2 14:56:44 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:56:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  April 1 Google fun
Message-ID: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>

Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com :
>I suppose:
>http://www.google.com/virgle/pioneer.html
>http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html
>http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/20080401_virgle.html

One of the most elaborate gags I've ever seen.

And the perfect response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wr1MxFvDI0


-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 15:25:37 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:25:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com><47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com><012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<47F388A3.7090902@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <001701c894d5$dc002100$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:

> Hi John.
>
> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational,
> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities
> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked
> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.
> These are truly the people of the future, no?

Hi Richard.

Thank you for your kind words. I do think I made some rather good points
if I do say so myself.

Regards   John










From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  2 15:33:42 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:33:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
References: <148975.42577.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <028001c894d7$309cefd0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> The point is that true and false are abstract human categories
> (just like selfhood...and Napoleon). Reality has no truck with
> such things.

Yes, I agree.  True and False apply to assertions, or to maps.
Now you can have a true map, or literal model, of something
as opposed to false ones. For example, suppose we made a huge
scale model of the Mississippi valley, except that it contained
a single but very prominent glaring inaccuracy (say the Platte
river runs mainly south to north rather than west to east), and
then we all die.  An alien intelligence that makes its way to
Earth will, we may say, encounter this scale model, verify
its "truthfulness" except for that one tributary. So true and
false models do exist outside of human categories.

> We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to
> admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be
> denied as valid by another.

I would not quite go so far. Let's say that there are agreed-upon
conventions of the following sort:  the symbols and word "big"
shall be taken to refer to bodies whose size exceeds the distance
from the sun to the Earth, and "small" is taken to refer or 
describe bodies smaller than the continent of Australia. Then
if one entity asserts "the galaxy is small" then this is simply 
incorrect. The mapping's in the creature's nervous system
have patent inaccuracies in them, and so are what I was 
earlier calling "false maps". 

> There is no Napoleon out there.

What about Jupiter?  Would you say that there is no Jupiter
out there? What would that mean? If you were struck by a
car as you walked across a street, you would not surely
correct a police officer who came by and asked, "were you
struck by a car", with something like "you mean, my-perception-
of-police-officer, that I experienced terrible force applied to
my-perception-of-my-body by a perception that I had of a
"car".

Now it may simply be that you are not a philosophical realist,
but subscribe to some other philosophical tradition. (If so, it
might help to know what.) But my main argument for realism
is the tremendous utility of the entire model itself of 3 dimensional
+ 1dimensional spacetime, and that there are 3D objects out 
there that I want my words to *refer* to. So whether you believe
that a proper concept of Jupiter is a large spinning ball of hydrogen
and ammonia and so on, or whatever (perhaps a local maximum
in a spatial distribution of quarks and gluons) you really can't beat
the idea of *referring* to that mass as if it really was a thing "out
there".

> It's a mental construct which people define in different ways to
> suit different purposes.

The extent that they use the same word with different meanings
or different definitions is the extent that the word or concept
loses its utility in communication for us.  (Since you used "people"
without scare quotes, I guess I can use "us" without them either.)

>  It's entirely irrelevant how we answer the question, it changes
> nothing. A clear cut answer will serve only to obfuscate matters
> further by confusing people into thinking that there is such black
> and whiteness.

Do you also think that the aforesaid police officer finds it irrelevant
how questions are answered?  Do you really conduct your life in
such a way that how we answer questions such as "Who was the
first president of the United States?", or "what is the largest planet
of the solar system?", or "when exactly did JFK die?" is irrelevant?

> Hope this makes things less muddy ;)

Hmm, well I sense some progress, or at least better mutual understanding.
Thanks for taking the time.

Lee



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Apr  2 15:20:46 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:20:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] April 1 Google fun
In-Reply-To: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>
References: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <20080402152253.SGAO20696.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 09:56 AM 4/2/2008, Amara wrote:
>Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com :
> >I suppose:
> >http://www.google.com/virgle/pioneer.html
> >http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html
> >http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/20080401_virgle.html
>
>One of the most elaborate gags I've ever seen.
>
>And the perfect response:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wr1MxFvDI0

LOL!! Thank you!!

Natasha



From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 15:41:32 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:41:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com><47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
	<47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com> <47F38757.5080609@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <005101c894d8$0fe100f0$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com>

> Kyoto was not caused by market forces, but
> by activism.

You are quite correct, market forces could never have produced
anything as astronomically stupid as Kyoto.

  John K Clark







From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 15:42:43 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:42:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
In-Reply-To: <001701c894d5$dc002100$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com><47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com><012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>	<47F388A3.7090902@lightlink.com>
	<001701c894d5$dc002100$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <47F3A973.8080406@lightlink.com>

John K Clark wrote:
> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:
> 
>> Hi John.
>>
>> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational,
>> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities
>> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked
>> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.
>> These are truly the people of the future, no?
> 
> Hi Richard.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. I do think I made some rather good points
> if I do say so myself.
> 
> Regards   John

You're welcome.

I'm so glad you saw through to the heart of my message, and did not 
mistake it for a commentary on how you and some of the other shining 
beacons of polymathic futurism on this list are able to grasp the subtle 
interplay of forces in the worlds of science, politics and economics 
without descending into the tedious depths of a bigoted, axe-grindng rant.



Richard Loosemore


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 15:43:54 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:43:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
>  > http://www.drmillslmu.com/peakoil.htm
>  > Even if you don't buy into peak oil and the consequences, it's an
>  > interesting compilation. I disagree on only one point, this quote:
>  > "No combination of renewable energy systems have the potential to
>  > generate more than a fraction of the power now being generated
>  > by fossil fuels."
>  >   -- Jay Hanson
>  > And most of you know why.
>
>  Not me, I agree with the quote. Whatever is going to replace oil it will
>  need to be HUGE, absolutely ENORMOUS!

No argument.

>  Wind farms and tidal energy
>  just don't make the grade.

Agree.

>  Maybe solar energy could someday make a
>  dent in the problem, but the technology just isn't there yet.

Again, true.

>  Right now
>  it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
>  dispensed by just 100 gas stations.

It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area.
Still it's 22,608 sq km.  From Wikipedia, "or 0.45 - 1.35 kWh/m?/day"
from sunlight for 15% efficient solar cells.  Using the lower number,
that's 0.45 GWh/square km/day or 10,173 GWh/day,  for a solar panel
that size or 3,713,364 GWh/year.

"The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of
gasoline in 2006."  100 stations out of 20,000 would pump about 2.25
billion liters.  "Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per
liter(MJ/l)"  That's 88,230,000,000 MJ/year or since  "1 MJ = 0.278
kWh" 24,527,940,000 kWh/year, or 24,528 GWh/year.  At 50% conversion
efficiency electricity to liquid fuel, it takes about 50,000 GWh/year
to supply 100 gas stations.  That's about 1% of the output of a NJ
sized solar panel.

Looking back over the numbers, I suspect that paving NJ with solar
cells was what someone figured would take to replace the energy we use
in the US from gasoline.

Now look at this from using power sats, which get from 3 to 10 times
as much sunlight per square meter.  Using 8,000 hours per year it
would take about 600 GW to replace gasoline energy, or 1,200 with a
50% conversion factor.  At 5 GW, that's 120-240 power sats, or 2-4
year's production.  Or if you go to the 10 GW size, that takes as
little as a year churning them out at 60 a year.

>  There are about 20,000 gas stations
>  in the USA alone. And yes, I've heard of solar power satellites, but are
>  you so confident that the idea will be economically and ecologically
>  feasible  that you would be willing to invest your entire life savings into
>  the idea and be prepared to live on the streets if it failed? I'm not.

If we don't, and we are not "rescued" by the singularity, we stand a
high chance of starving, maybe better than 90% worldwide in the next
25-30 years.  "Life savings" may not have a lot of meaning when things
get that unstable.

>  And I'm all for making things more efficient, but that's not going to solve
>  the problem either, efficiency just makes energy cheaper, thus people will
>  use more of it.
>
>  You can fantasize about nuclear fusion (hot or cold) or vacuum zero point
>  energy all you want but the cold hard reality is that right now only 5
>  technologies have the potential to replace oil. All of them would give Green
>  Party tree huggers a tizzy fit (but then everything gives them a tizzy fit);
>  and none of them are exactly cheap, except perhaps the last if we did it
>  just right. They are:
>
>  1) Coal
>  2) Tar Sands
>  3) Oil Shale
>  4) Methane clathrate, (the least developed technology)
>  5) Nuclear Fission

None of these are renewable.  There was an interesting article in New
Scientist in Jan that makes the case we are within 25 years of peak
coal.  Even with breeder reactors you run out of fissionable fuel in
less time than you would think.  Part of the problem is the amount of
energy you have to feed into getting a unit of energy out.  When you
get down to mining granite for uranium, it's close to 100 percent
being fed back.

In this context a power satellite repays its lift energy to GEO in as
little as a day with the right technology.

Keith


From painlord2k at yahoo.it  Wed Apr  2 11:48:22 2008
From: painlord2k at yahoo.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:48:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>

Tom Nowell ha scritto:

> Halliburton is hired to help do two things - rebuild
> Iraq's oil industry and perform logistical support to
> the US military. Rebuilding Iraq's oil industry could
> be done by a great many oil companies if they were
> given decent security backup.

That have a cost, in soldiers or in contractors.
Both cost money and have a political cost.

> As for logistical
> support - true, not many commercial organisations can
> do what Halliburton can. However, there's are two
> radical alternatives to hiring contractors at fat
> rates:
> 1)reinstate the draft and have young men truck the
> stuff through Iraq much like their dads did for
> Vietnam - not an electorally popular move, but making
> strong use of America's resources.

So, you would substitute volunteers with conscripts and professional 
with amateurs?
This also have a cost: political for the draft and political and 
economic for all the added deads due to a not professional and highly 
trained force.

> 2)Having allies. This may come as a radical view, but
> if the Bush administration had spent a little more
> time building an international coalition, he might
> have been able to have more areas of Iraq being
> handled by non-US forces.

He build an international coalition and stopped to try to enlarge when 
was clear that was impossible to wider it more.
Do you remember that the France simply bought the votes of the African 
nations in the UN to oppose the invasion?
China and Russia were against for their political reason (national 
interests).


>  Afghanistan has a great many NATO countries involved
> - OK, the coalition creaks a little as the
> US, UK, Canada and Belgium take all the danger zones
> (and the UK gets to take on the world heroin
> production capital) while other countries take on the
> more stable parts, but it works. Many countries are
> persuaded that it's worth putting in effort for a
> stable Afghanistan.

The NATO countries are forced to add more soldier in Afghanistan, 
because if the coalition fail there will be a political disaster for 
all. Remember that the NATO countries are there because of the 9/11; and 
9/11 was an war attack to an allied country of NATO. No need to build 
nothing there.
Any NATO country that retire from there will be marginalized politically 
and militarily in the NATO and in the EU; Afghanistan is a NATO war, and 
   losing in Afghanistan against the Talibans will show the weakness of 
the NATO and encourage the western enemies (mainly the islamists).
If NATO, mainly the EU part of the NATO, fail in Afghanistan, the war 
will simply follow them in Europe (and you will not be happy to see what 
will happen then).


>  If this had been done for Iraq, there'd be less need
> for Halliburton and the cost of the war would be
> partially born by other nations and the overall total
> might be lower, as it would avoid some of the
> "contractor corruption" widely reported in the media.

And more parties would cause more need of pork division.
And more possibility of meddling around for internal political reason.
And a few parties were not interested in helping the US and many were 
interested in helping themselves and the US enemies.

>  Of course, to do that would have required
> negotiation, taking time and actually having credible
> intelligence to go to war on. Perhaps someone a few
> years back should have thought "You know, this
> intelligence isn't that strong and most nations aren't
> buying it. Why are we buying it? Are we that sure it's
> worth losing thousands of our troops over?"

You go in war with the intelligence you have, not with the intelligence 
you want or will have a few years after.
After twelve years of hoping that Saddam die or was overthrow, there was 
not need of intelligence to no that this was long due. Or we could 
accept the collapse of the embargo, the resuming of his power 
projections and research projects. The UNO inspectors accounted tons of 
chemicals and biological weapons in the '90 and in the 2003 they were 
unable to account them. Where are these weapons? Evaporated? Someone ate 
them? In Siria? They found prohibited missiles, instead. Enough to 
confirm the breaking of the truce and the resuming of the combats.


> Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
> project that they think would help the world, advance
> human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
> them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
> got to wonder at the waste of it all.

Think so. Now the USA have much more tested and war hardened armed 
forces. Much more than Russia and China and others.
And you never computed the cost of not toppling Saddam and the Talibans.

If you want save a dime, move the US troops away from Kossovo and Bosnia.

Mirco

-- 
[Intangible capital is] the preponderant form of wealth.
When we look at the shares of intangible capital across income classes, 
you see it goes from about 60 percent in low-income countries to 80 
percent in high-income countries.
That accords very much with the notion that what really makes countries 
wealthy is not the bits and pieces, it's the brainpower, and the 
institutions that harness that brainpower.
It's the skills more than the rocks and minerals.
?Kirk Hamilton

Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! 
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com 



From painlord2k at yahoo.it  Wed Apr  2 11:04:30 2008
From: painlord2k at yahoo.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:04:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] solar cell innovation
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330234127.024d1b08@satx.rr.com>
References: <200803310326.m2V3Pk5b010875@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<200803310430.m2V4UQLd007212@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080330234127.024d1b08@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47F3683E.3080802@yahoo.it>

Damien Broderick ha scritto:
> At 09:03 PM 3/30/2008 -0700, spike wrote:
> 
>> In the next few decades, our gradual transition away from oil for
>> transportation will include a hundred different solutions where currently
>> there is really only one.
> 
> One of the graphs on the site Keith sent us to states that power 
> generation uses a derisory amount of oil, < 2 %. How much is used for 
> transport? Google points to 2/3 of total.
> 
> <http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/demand_text.htm>
> <oil consumption in the United States and Canada equals almost 3 
> gallons per day per capita.  (The difference is these countries' 
> transportation sectors, with their dependence on private vehicles to 
> travel relatively long distances.)  Oil consumption in the rest of 
> the OECD equals 1.4 gallons per day per capita.  Outside of the OECD, 
> oil consumption equals 0.2 gallons per day per capita. >

The EU, that is much of the rest of the EUCD, have higher taxes on the 
oil products. Currently, in Italy, the cost is 1.35 ?/liter that is more 
than 5$/gallon.
This simply prevent people to commute to work on long distances without 
public transport, and the public transport is rarely comfortable or 
available when and where people need it.
Couple with a mummified house market (high prices, costly to buy and 
sell home), and people have much less opportunity to find and change 
their jobs for a better one. And this make us more poor than the US.

There is, for sure, space for improvements, but people consume less 
mainly because they are poor, not because they are smarter.

Mirco

-- 
[Intangible capital is] the preponderant form of wealth.
When we look at the shares of intangible capital across income classes, 
you see it goes from about 60 percent in low-income countries to 80 
percent in high-income countries.
That accords very much with the notion that what really makes countries 
wealthy is not the bits and pieces, it's the brainpower, and the 
institutions that harness that brainpower.
It's the skills more than the rocks and minerals.
?Kirk Hamilton

Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! 
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com 



From aiguy at comcast.net  Wed Apr  2 16:18:33 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (aiguy at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:18:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
Message-ID: <040220081618.14845.47F3B1D9000D3C21000039FD2200751090979A09070E@comcast.net>

Keith said:
> 
> It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area. 
> Still it's 22,608 sq km. From Wikipedia, "or 0.45 - 1.35 kWh/m?/day" 
> from sunlight for 15% efficient solar cells. Using the lower number, 
> that's 0.45 GWh/square km/day or 10,173 GWh/day, for a solar panel 
> that size or 3,713,364 GWh/year. 
> 
> "The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of 
> gasoline in 2006." 100 stations out of 20,000 would pump about 2.25 
> billion liters. "Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per 
> liter(MJ/l)" That's 88,230,000,000 MJ/year or since "1 MJ = 0.278 
> kWh" 24,527,940,000 kWh/year, or 24,528 GWh/year. At 50% conversion 
> efficiency electricity to liquid fuel, it takes about 50,000 GWh/year 
> to supply 100 gas stations. That's about 1% of the output of a NJ 
> sized solar panel. 
> 

What if we we to mount the solar farms in the center of the Great Lakes and bring the power
back with under water cables.

The lakes are big enough that they wouldn't be visible from shore and by distributing thm across
the lakes transmission loss due to distance could be minimized.

The average depth of the lakes is 500 ft. so they could be anchored on tethers  or on small interconnect platforms
whichever would be most stable and storm resistent.

I realize this adds to the cost of construction but when you consider that no real estate needs to be purchased.  No issues/lawsuits from 
eminent domain battles and angry homeowners who don' t want to have to see solar arrays from their back yards it 
might be a cost savings in the long run.

Because we share the Lakes with Canada we could even make it a joint venture between the two countries in
the spirit of international cooperation and to share expense.

Channels could be left open at various points for maintenance and to allow for navigation by boats and commercial vessels.

But I used to live near Lake Erie and was even out fishing at the 3 mile mark a few times and there's not that much traffic out there.
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From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  2 16:15:23 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:15:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
Message-ID: <421467.55249.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

i think my sarcasm monitor has just exploded. I'm now covered in layer after layer of irony. Please stop!

----- Original Message ----
From: Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:42:43 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]

John K Clark wrote:
> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:
> 
>> Hi John.
>>
>> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational,
>> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities
>> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked
>> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.
>> These are truly the people of the future, no?
> 
> Hi Richard.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. I do think I made some rather good points
> if I do say so myself.
> 
> Regards   John

You're welcome.

I'm so glad you saw through to the heart of my message, and did not 
mistake it for a commentary on how you and some of the other shining 
beacons of polymathic futurism on this list are able to grasp the subtle 
interplay of forces in the worlds of science, politics and economics 
without descending into the tedious depths of a bigoted, axe-grindng rant.



Richard Loosemore
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
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From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 16:59:28 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:59:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> 100 stations [...] That's about 1% of the output of a NJ sized solar 
> panel.

Yes I think you're right, I must have screwed up a couple of decimal points,
sorry. But even using your figures that's over 2 square kilometers of solar
panel per gas station, not very encouraging.

> Now look at this from using power sats, which get from 3 to 10 times as
> much sunlight per square meter.

In space yes, but the microwave energy density on the ground would be
less than sunlight. I know rectennas are more efficient than solar cells
but I still find that figure discouraging. I'm not saying it's imposable, it
might even be practical, but I wouldn't want to stake my entire future
on it. I want a plan B.

 John K Clark






From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr  2 16:42:45 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:42:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI]   extropic spheres
References: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <001001c894e0$94e0ba40$98911f97@archimede>

Only a semipopular article on Dyson spheres 
and other astroengineering projects.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/33579



From sentience at pobox.com  Wed Apr  2 17:27:55 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:27:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>

Keith Henson wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> 
>>  Right now
>>  it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
>>  dispensed by just 100 gas stations.
> 
> It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area.
> Still it's 22,608 sq km.  From Wikipedia, "or 0.45 - 1.35 kWh/m?/day"
> from sunlight for 15% efficient solar cells.  Using the lower number,
> that's 0.45 GWh/square km/day or 10,173 GWh/day,  for a solar panel
> that size or 3,713,364 GWh/year.
> 
> "The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of
> gasoline in 2006."  100 stations out of 20,000 would pump about 2.25
> billion liters.  "Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per
> liter(MJ/l)"  That's 88,230,000,000 MJ/year or since  "1 MJ = 0.278
> kWh" 24,527,940,000 kWh/year, or 24,528 GWh/year.  At 50% conversion
> efficiency electricity to liquid fuel, it takes about 50,000 GWh/year
> to supply 100 gas stations.  That's about 1% of the output of a NJ
> sized solar panel.

That figure sounded a little odd.  Thanks for checking, Keith.

> None of these are renewable.  There was an interesting article in New
> Scientist in Jan that makes the case we are within 25 years of peak
> coal.  Even with breeder reactors you run out of fissionable fuel in
> less time than you would think.  Part of the problem is the amount of
> energy you have to feed into getting a unit of energy out.  When you
> get down to mining granite for uranium, it's close to 100 percent
> being fed back.

How long does it take to run out of uranium?  40 years may not be 
enough time for fusion, but it's enough time to switch to thorium or 
solar satellites (and probably enough time to build AI, but let's 
leave that out for now).

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 18:00:42 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:00:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:59 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>  > 100 stations [...] That's about 1% of the output of a NJ sized solar
>  > panel.
>
>  Yes I think you're right, I must have screwed up a couple of decimal points,
>  sorry. But even using your figures that's over 2 square kilometers of solar
>  panel per gas station, not very encouraging.
>
>  > Now look at this from using power sats, which get from 3 to 10 times as
>  > much sunlight per square meter.
>
>  In space yes, but the microwave energy density on the ground would be
>  less than sunlight.

Setting the power level to less than 1/4 kW/square meter was for
safety reasons.  I don't know what actual power level would go
non-linear and short out the ionosphere.  Also the rectenna doesn't
block sunlight so you can put them over farmland--something you can't
do with solar cells.

>  I know rectennas are more efficient than solar cells
>  but I still find that figure discouraging. I'm not saying it's imposable, it
>  might even be practical, but I wouldn't want to stake my entire future
>  on it. I want a plan B.

Plan B is that something like 90% of humans starve.

Of course *no* energy project, not even power sats, can work when
there is exponential population growth.  All that happens is a more
and more massive die off--eventually.

Though I seriously doubt *human* population growth will be a problem
in the post singularity era.

Keith


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  2 17:44:36 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:44:36 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1207153153.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:
> 
>> Hi John.
>>
>> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed. 
Full of rational,
>> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand
the complexities
>> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect
are often linked
>> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by
careful thought.
>> These are truly the people of the future, no?

Sometimes, I feel that the transhumanists are about as
much the people of the future as early 20th century
eugenicists were. They were full of ideas, guided by
Darwinism, contained many leading intellectuals, and
were convinced that something had to be done to stop
genetically inferior people taking over the world. As
a result of policies they advocated such as forcibly
sterilising disabled people and eugenic associations
with Nazi science, they are now often discredited.
They also operated with knowledge of mendelian
genetics but without knowledge of DNA.
 Today, instead of discoursing in our salons and
literary journals, we email each other and moan about
how religous beliefs are stifling biology, or how
people are too blind to take NBIC technologies
seriously, or how people are taking the wrong approach
to energy production. Our knowledge of future
technologies is based on the early promise of
fast-developing fields, and they could well develop
much differently from how we predict.
 Sometimes I really wonder what separates us from
intellectual movements of the past that fell by the
wayside.

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 18:42:31 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:42:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.18.1207153153.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804021142o614775b5v605eb8c79b69e20b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Tom Nowell wrote:
<snip>
>   Sometimes I really wonder what separates us from
>  intellectual movements of the past that fell by the
>  wayside.
>


The inability to write a Subject heading for emails is not a good sign.  ;)


BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 18:43:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:43:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.m
	axmore.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080402132740.0242f810@satx.rr.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/1/2008 -0500, Max wrote:

> >What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven
> >my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical health
> >system, funded from taxation together with private insurance, that
> >would support me in Australia.##
>
>...You're right. The US medical care system is
>seriously messed up. But why do you reflexively assume more
>government is the answer?

I've lived both there and here within the last decade. I was able to 
afford crucial pharmaceuticals there and I could expect that if a 
medical crisis afflicted me I wouldn't be ruined. (And yes, of course 
I have insurance.)

>I expect you'd be willing to grant that the
>US system is very very far from a free market.

Max, I assume you haven't been following this sub-thread. I don't 
just "grant" this--it's exactly what I (and PJ Manney) have been 
saying repeatedly. The collusion between government and corporations 
is one reason.

>Are you sure that a
>true free market in medical care wouldn't be a major improvement.

I don't know. I have reason to suppose that an Aussie-style system 
would be a major improvement (for me and many other people in the 
USA) over what you have here now. Obviously I'd hope that it might be 
improved in turn. But when I read assertions about how a true free 
market would beat the socks off anything else, I'm reminded of 
classic Trotskyist communists--"Oh, the Soviet Union's just totalist 
state capitalism, not *real* marxism, which has never been tried... 
but when it does, we'll see paradise, you betcha."

>might spur me to finally put together a piece (for my brand spanking
>new blog) on what steps toward such a system might be.

Please do, would be interesting!

>of course, U.S. doctors are SO smart about health economics that
>we should take this as the ultimate argument, right?

Clearly not; but I seem to recall many times when the 
counter-argument has been supported by previous polls showing that 
doctors until recently *disapproved* of national health schemes. I 
find the change of heart informative.

Damien Broderick 



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 18:55:29 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:55:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry guys, but I found this just too compelling to pass up.

Robot Cannon Kills 9, Wounds 14
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki.html

Best, Jeff Davis

"White people are clever, but they are not wise."
          Ishi, the last of the Yahi nation


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 19:24:29 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:24:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <040220081618.14845.47F3B1D9000D3C21000039FD2200751090979A09070E@comcast.net>
References: <040220081618.14845.47F3B1D9000D3C21000039FD2200751090979A09070E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804021224s685ecd38p18fea5f470402d70@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:18 PM,  aiguy wrote:
<snip>
> Because we share the Lakes with Canada we could even make it a joint venture
> between the two countries in
> the spirit of international cooperation and to share expense.
>
> Channels could be left open at various points for maintenance and to allow
> for navigation by boats and commercial vessels.
>
> But I used to live near Lake Erie and was even out fishing at the 3 mile
> mark a few times and there's not that much traffic out there.



Did you hear that you now need your passport to go fishing?
Thanks to the ever-helpful Homeland Security Department.


<http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2008-03-26-fishing_N.htm>

Quote:

Going fishing? Pack your passport
By Mimi Hall, USA TODAY

Rick Ungar's charter fishing service promises a great time on Lake
Erie. But there's a catch ? and it's not freshwater fish. It's the
Homeland Security Department's new anti-terrorism rules.

When the 2008 charter season begins next month, U.S. citizens paying
to fish on Lake Erie will have to bring either a passport or two other
IDs if they plan to cross the northern border's invisible watery line.
When they get back to shore in the USA, they'll have to drive to a
local government reporting station and pose for pictures. They won't
be posing with their fish, but for Customs officers via a videophone
connection.

etc.....


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 20:26:55 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 22:26:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804021326r1ae9f33bx122952c98ccab729@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 9:45 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>  > Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
>  > project that they think would help the world, advance
>  > human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
>  > them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
>  > got to wonder at the waste of it all.
>
>  Actually, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E.
>  Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda J. Bilmes, that number is $3
>  Trillion so far -- and that's supposedly an "excessively conservative"
>  estimate.  And it's rising.

Why, I have just happened to mention the trivial 10bn price tag of
ITER. And it took a decade and a consortium of ten different
countries... :-(((

What could we have achieved with 500bn, let alone 3000bn, in the field
of nuclear fusion?

Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 21:17:43 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:17:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] fusion
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804021326r1ae9f33bx122952c98ccab729@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804021326r1ae9f33bx122952c98ccab729@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080402161445.023e8e40@satx.rr.com>

At 10:26 PM 4/2/2008 +0200, Stefano wrote:

>What could we have achieved with 500bn, let alone 3000bn, in the field
>of nuclear fusion?

More bang for our buck?  :) ##

Damien Broderick
## Note the grin. It is unnecessary for learned extropians to provide 
detailed explanations of why fusion reactors are very unlikely to explode. 



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 21:16:25 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:16:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804021416m4c375512i931c4e4def39aa1d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
<sentience at pobox.com> wrote:
> Keith Henson wrote:
>  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
>  >
>
> >>  Right now
>  >>  it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
>  >>  dispensed by just 100 gas stations.
>  >
>  > It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area.

snip

>  >  That's about 1% of the output of a NJ
>  > sized solar panel.
>
>  That figure sounded a little odd.  Thanks for checking, Keith.
>
Numbers are sharp as razors.  When you use them, you might as well
show your work.

>  > None of these are renewable.  There was an interesting article in New
>  > Scientist in Jan that makes the case we are within 25 years of peak
>  > coal.  Even with breeder reactors you run out of fissionable fuel in
>  > less time than you would think.  Part of the problem is the amount of
>  > energy you have to feed into getting a unit of energy out.  When you
>  > get down to mining granite for uranium, it's close to 100 percent
>  > being fed back.
>
>  How long does it take to run out of uranium?

It's an indeterminate question and it deeply depends on the available
technology.  There is a lot of uranium considering how heavy it is,
but it's rarely concentrated.

>  40 years may not be enough time for fusion,

Why would anyone bother with fusion when there is a nearby working
fusion reactor we can tap is beyond me.

>  but it's enough time to switch to thorium or
>  solar satellites (and probably enough time to build AI, but let's
>  leave that out for now).

It's game over when AIs come along.  The problem is that with the time
resolution we have now, we can't (or rather I can't) distinguish
between the out of control ride down the back side of peak oil and the
singularity takeoff.  If huge amounts of energy from space started
coming on line near in the mid to late 2020s, my bet is that the
project would never be finished because of AI.  On the other hand,
maybe the AIs would need the energy.

Keith


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 21:54:55 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 23:54:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804021416m4c375512i931c4e4def39aa1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>
	<d1988d2d0804021416m4c375512i931c4e4def39aa1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804021454s2a3decdp9ae2bebe5d3b1c5c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Why would anyone bother with fusion when there is a nearby working
> fusion reactor we can tap is beyond me.
>

Mmhhh. For the same reason batteries and dynamos make sense even if wall
plugs are there?

Stefano Vaj
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 22:26:03 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:26:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200804021726.03282.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 02 April 2008, Tom Nowell wrote:
> ?Today, instead of discoursing in our salons and
> literary journals, we email each other and moan about
> how religous beliefs are stifling biology, or how
> people are too blind to take NBIC technologies
> seriously, or how people are taking the wrong approach
> to energy production. Our knowledge of future
> technologies is based on the early promise of
> fast-developing fields, and they could well develop
> much differently from how we predict.

Tom, you're just identifying the people incorrectly. Look a little 
closer and we're really hard at work here. *cough*

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  2 22:16:05 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:16:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <536532.76241.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee said 

>True and False apply to assertions, or to maps.
>Now you can have a true map, or literal model, of something
>as opposed to false ones. For example, suppose we made a huge
>scale model of the Mississippi valley, except that it contained
>a single but very prominent glaring inaccuracy (say the Platte
>river runs mainly south to north rather than west to east), and
>then we all die.  An alien intelligence that makes its way to
>Earth will, we may say, encounter this scale model, verify
>its "truthfulness" except for that one tributary. So true and
>false models do exist outside of human categories.


Not sure I'm entirely comfortable with the assertion-map analogy but I'll go with it. I have to point out that a map is only one kind of representation of the territory, and one that is produced for a specific purpose: an alien may well not recognise it as being representative, as she is focussing on completely different properties of the territory. A cat for example does not understand the relationship between map symbolism and territory. A Norwegian does not necessarily understand the relationship between English and the reality it supposedly depicts. The relationship between a symbolic system and the referent depend on understanding the syntax. In this example you are depending on the alien sharing the symbolic representation system that the human manufacturers use. A model, any model, necessarily exists within the category system (syntax) which it depends for its meaning.

> We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to
> admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be
> denied as valid by another.

I would not quite go so far. Let's say that there are agreed-upon
conventions of the following sort:  the symbols and word "big"
shall be taken to refer to bodies whose size exceeds the distance
from the sun to the Earth, and "small" is taken to refer or 
describe bodies smaller than the continent of Australia. Then
if one entity asserts "the galaxy is small" then this is simply 
incorrect. The mapping's in the creature's nervous system
have patent inaccuracies in them, and so are what I was 
earlier calling "false maps". 

>> There is no Napoleon out there.
>
>What about Jupiter?  Would you say that there is no Jupiter
>out there? What would that mean? If you were struck by a
>car as you walked across a street, you would not surely
>correct a police officer who came by and asked, "were you
>struck by a car", with something like "you mean, my-perception-
>of-police-officer, that I experienced terrible force applied to
>my-perception-of-my-body by a perception that I had of a
>"car".


Well Jupiter is a human concept. Separable objects are human concepts. Our concepts are what we experience. We don't experience reality "as it is" because whatever objective reality there is gets articulated in finite, differentiated objects before it hits our brains. I don't claim I'm an anti-realist (I consistently fail to align myself with any philosophical school, ever since my brief infatuation with Hegel ended). The realist-antirealist dichotomy is just as naive as either taken on their own. All I say is this: Jupiter exists in the human mind, it's a semantic articulation of a particular experience which we then use to filter other experiences into. We can't step outside the human mind and know what reality is like outside of subjectivity, or outside of the human conceptual structure, but we can at least recognise that our thoughts are only one possible articulation of that which exists beyond thought. This is not to say we should relegate all our
 ideas and perceptions to the ontological scrapheap...but, their utility needs to be recognised as not being more than utility.


>The extent that they use the same word with different meanings
>or different definitions is the extent that the word or concept
>loses its utility in communication for us.  (Since you used "people"
>without scare quotes, I guess I can use "us" without them either.)


Absolutely...and this is at least half the problem that we run into when discussing abstract (and even some not so abstract) ideas. People don't define the words they're using and then people misunderstand the actual intent of what is stated. 


>Do you also think that the aforesaid police officer finds it irrelevant
>how questions are answered?  Do you really conduct your life in
>such a way that how we answer questions such as "Who was the
>first president of the United States?", or "what is the largest planet
>of the solar system?", or "when exactly did JFK die?" is irrelevant?


To be frank, not one of these has even a minor impact on my life. They're all supremely irrelevant to me. I wonder sometimes whether we'd all be happier (and conducting our lives in better ways) if we didn't focus so much on things like this which have no bearing on us.

BUT my statement was referring to the question of Napolean (this is the problem when you break up a paragraph into its constituent lines...the context and therefore meaning is lost). And yes, I still think that whether Napolean "is" the nutter before us now just because he believes he is, or forever ceased to exist hundreds of years ago, is ultimately unimportant...because whatever we give as an answer makes no difference to anything. We might as well debate whether yellow is lighter than pink for all the importance the answer we reach will have.








      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 22:52:24 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:52:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>
References: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804021552x33b443cax6818e960a15d7d98@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:48 AM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Tom Nowell ha scritto:
>  > 1)reinstate the draft and have young men truck the
>  > stuff through Iraq much like their dads did for
>  > Vietnam - not an electorally popular move, but making
>  > strong use of America's resources.
>
>  So, you would substitute volunteers with conscripts and professional
>  with amateurs?
>  This also have a cost: political for the draft and political and
>  economic for all the added deads due to a not professional and highly
>  trained force.

Your bias is effecting your **logic**, such as it is.  Volunteers or
conscripts, they get the same training.  Neither can therefore be
characterized as **amateurs**.

In contrast, try this.  How intelligent can the "volunteers" be?  How
would they compare, intelligence-wise, to the pool from which
conscripts would be drawn?

Full disclosure-wise regarding my own bias let me say that you'd have
to be a fucking moron to volunteer for the army or marines right now.
And the recent lowering of the standards for enlistment bears me out.
So to answer my own questions above:

Volunteers = testosterone-charged, youthfully-naive,
mentally-defective provincials;
Conscripts = persons of average intelligence.

Sorry to rain on your sorry parade.



>  > 2)Having allies...

                                      .<snip>
>  Do you remember that the France simply bought the votes of the African
>  nations in the UN to oppose the invasion?

What are you smoking, Mirco?  France, a permanent member of the
security council, has veto power, it doesn't need to buy anybody's
vote.
<snip>


>  The NATO countries are forced to add more soldier in Afghanistan,
>  because if the coalition fail there will be a political disaster for
>  all.

Says who?  Don"t attempt an answer, you're not qualified.

The Kool-aid drinkers who absorb uncritically the view of those who
lobbied the US into this mess, and want to keep the US there, and who
have been brazen serial liars and comprehensively incompetent.

Anyone with a fragment of intelligence knew this years ago.  What's
your excuse, Mirco?

<snip>


>... more possibility of meddling around for internal political reason.
>  And a few parties were not interested in helping the US and many were
>  interested in helping themselves and the US enemies.

I see, advising someone not to drive over a cliff is treason.  How
many different kinds of fool can you be, Mirco?
No need to answer that.


>  You go in war with the intelligence you have, not with the intelligence
>  you want or will have a few years after.

That pretty much ends this conversation.

You should not be wasting the time of folks on the list, Mirco.  That
could be better spent seeking and receiving professional help for you
mental condition.

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Men occasionally stumble over the truth,
    but most pick themselves up and hurry off
    as if nothing had happened."
                    Winston Churchill


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr  3 00:30:30 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:30:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
References: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>
	<a6a17bd40804021552x33b443cax6818e960a15d7d98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02eb01c89521$f153a7b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jeff, who is normally quite a nice guy, takes a very harsh line
all of a sudden:

> Mirco Romanato wrote
> 
>>  So, you would substitute volunteers with conscripts
>>  and professional with amateurs?
>>  This also have a cost: political for the draft and political
>>  and economic for all the added deads due to a not
>>  professional and highly trained force.
> 
> Your bias is effecting [affecting] your **logic**, such as it is.
> Volunteers or conscripts, they get the same training.  Neither
> can therefore be characterized as **amateurs**.

In theory, perhaps, and maybe your point would at this time 
naturally take place in practice. But the Korean War showed
how pitifully drafted soldiers can be---I suspect that indeed
the training of the more motivated "professional" probably
turns out to be more effective.

And of course, you realize that your *own* bias may be
affecting your logic if it's true that his is affecting his. (Actually,
it's not a matter of logic at all---see below.)

> In contrast, try this.  How intelligent can the "volunteers" be?  How
> would they compare, intelligence-wise, to the pool from which
> conscripts would be drawn?
> 
> Full disclosure-wise regarding my own bias let me say that you'd have
> to be a fucking moron to volunteer for the army or marines right now.

My goodness! You can't be serious, or at least you must be
trying to speak figuratively. BTW, "moron" originated as
a technical term for very low intelligence, so literally it happens
that the U.S. at least never enlists morons. 

<skipping over many points that I don't have time to address>

>>  The NATO countries are forced to add more soldier in Afghanistan,
>>  because if the coalition fail there will be a political disaster for all.
> 
> Says who?  Don"t attempt an answer, you're not qualified.

Why is he any less qualified that anyone else? It's necessary in my
opinion for us to, as Eliezer says, "trust content, not authority". 
In other words, the qualifications or presumed authoritativeness
of any speaker need not be held against what is said.

> The Kool-aid drinkers who absorb uncritically the view of those who
> lobbied the US into this mess, and want to keep the US there, and who
> have been brazen serial liars and comprehensively incompetent.

Well, I don't agree, and neither does some (unknown but non-negligible
people on this list).

> Anyone with a fragment of intelligence knew this years ago.  What's
> your excuse, Mirco?

You imply that those of us who disagree with you have not even
a fragment of intelligence?  What we have here is a conflict of 
visions, see Thomas Sowell's book, "Conflict of Visions" by an
admitted conservative, or  Jonathan Haidt's nice video

http://www.newyorker.com/online/video/conference/2007/haidt

who is an admitted liberal.  They document what I've known since
I was twelve:  among those who have ideological differences, the
explanation is *not* that one side is morally corrupt, or stupid, or
less educated, or has worse judgment, or is less logical, or is more
rational, or anything of the sort.

The most that can so far reliably be said is that you contend that
the other side is *wrong*. And it is entirely possible to be absolutely
correct in so saying, though, of course, at this time we cannot
objectively establish who is wrong (or if any side is entirely right).

> I see, advising someone not to drive over a cliff is treason.  How
> many different kinds of fool can you be, Mirco?

The list rules explicitly prohibit such ad hominem attacks. Even a
quick superficial examination of your sentence here shows that, like
most other personal attacks, it has no redeeming content whatsoever.

> You should not be wasting the time of folks on the list, Mirco.  That
> could be better spent seeking and receiving professional help for you
> mental condition.

I really am disappointed, Jeff.  I've never heard you go over the edge
like this.  Please try to show respect, feigned or not, with those who
disagree with you.

Lee



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 04:09:50 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 00:09:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] solar cell innovation
In-Reply-To: <200803310430.m2V4UQLd007212@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200803310326.m2V3Pk5b010875@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<200803310430.m2V4UQLd007212@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240804022109r3e6e0dbdtb9259902e00a2543@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 12:03 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>  Speaking of roads, we could make them glassy smooth, so as to obviate
>  inefficient rugged duty vehicles for most applications.  This enables
>  vehicles that are much lighter, with light duty suspension.  It isn't that
>  hard to maintain roads to glassy smoothness.

It would help enforce your proposed speed limit - there's not much
traction on "glassy smooth" roads. :)

You should visit the northeast corridor, we have difficulty keeping
asphalt free of potholes.  I'm sure you could employ all the
future-science you could dream up, but the plumbers will still tear it
up to install plumbing after the surface is perfect -- and throw a few
lumps of asphalt in the trench to replace their divot.

I agree with you about freight hauling being an area for
consideration.  I disagree that passenger hauling is worth the effort.
 We should be moving more knowledge workers to virtual presence and
let them stay in their home offices.  I'd like to travel as a luxury
rather than a requirement of employment.


From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr  3 04:26:27 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 00:26:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> Plan B is that something like 90% of humans starve.

I don't think power satellites are the only hope the human race has, and I
certainly hope not!  Earlier I listed 5 technologies:

1) Coal
2) Tar Sands
3) Oil Shale
4) Methane Clathrate,
5) Nuclear Fission

I believe all of these are far more feasible than power satellites, even
Methane Clathrate. I know you said they weren't renewable, but if you want
to be that way neither is solar power. Let's just say they would all last a
very long time.

The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of trillion
dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn for sure that the
idea just isn't going to work. The best ideas are those where you can start
small and learn by doing; and then when you really develop some skill in
the area you can scale it all up with some confidence you can make it all
work. With Power satellites you've got to start gigantic from day one, and
that seldom works out very well for a radically new technology; but I
hope I'm wrong.

  John K Clark










From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 04:50:47 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 21:50:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:26 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>
> > Plan B is that something like 90% of humans starve.
>
>  I don't think power satellites are the only hope the human race has, and I
>  certainly hope not!  Earlier I listed 5 technologies:
>
>
>  1) Coal

According to New Scientist, 25 years till peak coal.

>  2) Tar Sands

Being exploited now.  They would benefit hugely from power sats to
supply upgrade hydrogen.

>  3) Oil Shale

Environmental problems you would not believe.  Biggest problem is the
tails are larger than the hole they came out of.  Second biggest
problem, they leach alkali.

>  4) Methane Clathrate,

Nobody has an idea of how to capture it.

>  5) Nuclear Fission

Every version I know about can be tapped for neutrons.  Combine that
with 100s to thousands of tons of DU, and it's a very serious problem.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301

>  I believe all of these are far more feasible than power satellites, even
>  Methane Clathrate. I know you said they weren't renewable, but if you want
>  to be that way neither is solar power. Let's just say they would all last a
>  very long time.

If something like power sats don't pick up the load, you may live to
see peak coal, and that's the one that will last longest.

>  The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of trillion
>  dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn for sure that the
>  idea just isn't going to work.

2 trillion is on a par with the Iraq war.  It's got to be a better
investment than that.  There is no reason to think it won't work, the
physics is more than 200 years old.

>  The best ideas are those where you can start
>  small and learn by doing; and then when you really develop some skill in
>  the area you can scale it all up with some confidence you can make it all
>  work. With Power satellites you've got to start gigantic from day one, and
>  that seldom works out very well for a radically new technology; but I
>  hope I'm wrong.

It depends.  The main problem is transport to GEO, the rest of the
risk is fairly low.  The current choices are space elevator, lasers
and rockets in order both of decreasing efficiency and risk.  And
yeah, it's big.  But so is the problem.  I sized the space elevator to
build enough in one year to displace the US coal fired plants.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 05:17:35 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 22:17:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the bee problem and a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804022217l6db040cdr5dd8bcce0de3bbf8@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
Your comment gave me an interesting idea however.  We could look at the
possibility of breeding alternate pollinators, possibly non-flyers, such as
some hardy type of roach for instance.  They stay nearby, they breed like
mormons, and for all their undeserved reputation as diseased carriers, I
have never seen a sick roach.  If we develop crawling pollinators we might
have less of a problem with their being smashed on car windows and might be
easier to keep them healthy.
>>>

*Did you just say, "Breed like Mormons?" : )  *Why, you should have written,
"breed like 19th century Mormons!" lol  I just spent almost a full week in
Salt Lake City and I did not see any mega-sized families.  I remember as a
kid fairly often seeing 8+ child Mormon families but now five offspring
seems the "really big family average."  I recall huge families where
resources (like food) were spread way too thin and so I think this is a very
good thing.

Spike wrote:
What would really be cool is if we could somehow process the roaches into
food at the end of the pollination season, or perhaps feed them to the hogs.
Of course it does have some psychological factors (...fruit trees black with
creepy roaches, ewww...) but we will overcome that hangup once we get
sufficiently hungry.
>>>
My mom would have a heart attack from sheer horror if your plan was
implemented...  But what about using flies?  I have seen them going after
nectar and they tend to "breed like flies!"  I think this may be the wave of
the future.  It has to be better than using roaches.

http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/pollinators/flies.shtml

John  : )
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr  3 05:38:35 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:38:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] the bee problem and a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804022217l6db040cdr5dd8bcce0de3bbf8@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<2d6187670804022217l6db040cdr5dd8bcce0de3bbf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080403003717.0247cdd8@satx.rr.com>

At 10:17 PM 4/2/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:
>Spike:
>What would really be cool is if we could somehow process the roaches into
>food at the end of the pollination season, or perhaps feed them to the hogs.
>Of course it does have some psychological factors (...fruit trees black with
>creepy roaches, ewww...) but we will overcome that hangup once we get
>sufficiently hungry.
> >>>
>My mom would have a heart attack from sheer horror if your plan was 
>implemented...  But what about using flies?  I have seen them going 
>after nectar and they tend to "breed like flies!"  I think this may 
>be the wave of the future.  It has to be better than using roaches.

I'd suggest using penguins:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dfWzp7rYR4

Damien Broderick




From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Apr  3 14:10:10 2008
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:10:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>


On 3 Apr, 2008, at 0:26, John K Clark wrote:
> The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of  
> trillion
> dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn for sure  
> that the
> idea just isn't going to work



Citations, please? :P


B
--
Brent Neal
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>





From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 15:22:04 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:22:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: IEEE Wireless Hive Networks Conference - Call for Paper
In-Reply-To: <AES459196.224473.A12071479314297366528@bmsmail3.ieee.org>
References: <A12071479700221789572.hkeithhenson@GMAIL.COM>
	<AES459196.224473.A12071479314297366528@bmsmail3.ieee.org>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804030822pe4c29e9ic0820945d7b42b71@mail.gmail.com>

As if Elizer didn't have enough to worry about . . .

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <conference-services at ieee.org>
Date: Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 4:00 AM
Subject: IEEE Wireless Hive Networks Conference - Call for Paper

Wireless Hive Networks (WHN) are local communities of wireless
 devices, in potential volumes dwarfing memory chips, associated with items on
 warehouse shelves, biomedical samples, border motion detectors, etc. ZigBee is
 an example of hive protocols. This conference addresses the challenges facing
 the organic semiconductors "pennies per device" production, integrated logic,
 ROM, antenna and battery design, and integration of embedded platforms,
 applications and wireless interfaces.

snip

 Sponsored by IEEE Central Texas Section, IEEE-USA and IEEE New Technology
 Directions Committee

 Technical Co-sponsors: IEEE Communications Society


From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr  3 15:32:24 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c895a0$25405c20$07f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> Wrote:

> According to New Scientist, 25 years till peak coal.

Maybe, maybe not; although I admit New Scientist is not the only one 
to make this claim. Similar arguments are made in the book "The Coal
Question: An Inquiry Concerning the Progress of the Nation, and the
Probable Exhaustion of our Coal-mines" written by the English economist
and logician William Stanley Jevons. The interesting thing is that this 
book was written in 1865.

Me:
>> 2) Tar Sands

You:
>Being exploited now.  They would benefit hugely from power sats
> to supply upgrade hydrogen.

I don't know what that means, but I do know that Canada's reserves
of Tar Sands approximately equal to the world's total reserves of
conventional crude oil, and Venezuela may have more reserves than
Canada.

Me:
 >>Oil Shale

You:
> Environmental problems you would not believe.

Bigger environmental problems than Power Satellites? I'll tell you
one thing, even if they turns out to be totally benign environmentalists
will fight you every inch of the way.

> Biggest problem is the tails are larger than the hole they came out of.

Mountains are easier to make than power satellites.

Me:
>> Methane Clathrate

You: 
> Nobody has an idea of how to capture it.

Nobody has even tried because until just a very few years ago nobody
knew it existed.

Me:
>>  5) Nuclear Fission

You:
> Every version I know about can be tapped for neutrons.

Yes, that is indeed a serious problem, possibly a lethal problem. If 
environmentalists don't get out of the way on what to do with this stuff 
they could kill us all.

>  There is no reason to think it won't work, the physics is more than
> 200  years old.

Well 103 years old, you need the Photoelectric effect; but nobody is 
saying power satellites are physically imposable, the question is 
are they economically rational? I have my doubts.

Ok maybe 200 after all, I wonder if it would be better to use a
parabolic reflector and a heat engine?

 John K Clark








From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr  3 17:38:24 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:38:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> 2 trillion is on a par with the Iraq war.  It's got to be a better
investment than that.

Yea but so is digging holes and then filling them up again.

>There is a lot of uranium considering how heavy it is, but it's
> rarely concentrated.

If we run out of uranium you can always switch to Thorium, you can make
reactors (and bombs) with that too and it's much more common than uranium,
about as common as lead in fact. Or you could make breeder rectors and use
plutonium, but that scares the hell out of me.

> The current choices are space elevator, lasers and rockets in
> order both  of decreasing efficiency and risk.

If you had a space elevator then power satellites would certainly make
sense because you'd have a much better way to get that energy down to earth
and could forget about those stupid microwaves that were always the
weak link in the idea.

 John K Clark






From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 18:01:43 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:01:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <001801c895a0$25405c20$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<001801c895a0$25405c20$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804031101g4b2fb6d9k9781640c923c58f6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:32 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> Wrote:
>
>  > According to New Scientist, 25 years till peak coal.
>
>  Maybe, maybe not; although I admit New Scientist is not the only one
>  to make this claim. Similar arguments are made in the book "The Coal
>  Question: An Inquiry Concerning the Progress of the Nation, and the
>  Probable Exhaustion of our Coal-mines" written by the English economist
>  and logician William Stanley Jevons. The interesting thing is that this
>  book was written in 1865.

Well, there is no question they are exhausted now.

>  Me:
>  >> 2) Tar Sands
>
>  You:
>
> >Being exploited now.  They would benefit hugely from power sats
>  > to supply upgrade hydrogen.
>
>  I don't know what that means,

That stuff is too thick to pump because the high hydrogen hydrocarbons
are gone.  If you are going to use it as liquid fuels, you have to add
hydrogen, much as is done converting coal to liquid fuels.  The
problem is making the hydrogen, it uses up a substantial fraction of
the energy in the input material to make it and about doubles the CO2
released for a given amount of transport.

I really wish that knowledge of basic chemistry and industrial
processes was more common on this list.  It freely available.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_sands

>  but I do know that Canada's reserves
>  of Tar Sands approximately equal to the world's total reserves of
>  conventional crude oil, and Venezuela may have more reserves than
>  Canada.

You have to deflated these sources by half because it takes a lot of
the energy in the deposits to get them out.  There are good reasons
they have not been exploited before. Open the article above and go
down to:

Global direct effects

Input energy

Producing synthetic crude takes so much energy that they are about to
put in a 2.2 GW nuclear plant to supply some of it.

>  Me:
>   >>Oil Shale
>
>  You:
>
> > Environmental problems you would not believe.
>
>  Bigger environmental problems than Power Satellites?

Yes.

>  I'll tell you
>  one thing, even if they turns out to be totally benign environmentalists
>  will fight you every inch of the way.

You expect that.  It's less expected to find opposition here.

snip
>
>  Me:
>  >>  5) Nuclear Fission
>
>  You:
>
> > Every version I know about can be tapped for neutrons.
>
>  Yes, that is indeed a serious problem, possibly a lethal problem. If
>  environmentalists don't get out of the way on what to do with this stuff
>  they could kill us all.

I don't think you understand the problem.  Neutrons plus depleted
uranium equals weapons grade plutonium better than any made in the
cold war.  And there is at least one way to make it into weapons
that's so easy a well funded street gang could do it.  You don't need
complicated electronics, you can fire one with a fuse.  We may have to
build reactors in every country of the world.  There may be some
really drastic side effects.

>  >  There is no reason to think it won't work, the physics is more than
>  > 200  years old.
>
>  Well 103 years old, you need the Photoelectric effect; but nobody is
>  saying power satellites are physically imposable, the question is
>  are they economically rational? I have my doubts.

That's a number question.  I have put some numbers on it.  If you can
build a moving cable mechanical elevator then a power sat that masses
less than 3 kg/kW repays the lift energy to GEO in a single day of
operation.  If it can be built at all, the elevator lifts it own mass
every 50-100 days.

These numbers by themselves don't make the project economically
rational, but they indicate more analysis is worth doing.

On the other hand, "economically rational" is context dependent.  If
we knew a K/T class asteroid was going to hit in a few years . . . .
The energy problem is in the same gigadeath class.

>  Ok maybe 200 after all, I wonder if it would be better to use a
>  parabolic reflector and a heat engine?

It might be, it's not obvious.  If you have access to moon rock or
asteroid material for heat sink fluid it would help.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 18:17:17 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:17:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
	<47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:
The problem children you describe are not representative of the entire
generation. I assure you that there are many good kids out there and they
far outnumber the evil little devils described here. However, you are right
that this is changing. Educated people are not having children at the same
rate as the grown-up versions of these problem children. These kids are
going out, getting pregnant at 14-19 years old, having several children.
They are unable to guide them and nurture them into responsible lives so
they repeat the cycle. Meanwhile, those who are well educated go on to
college, get a career started and then MAY have 1 or 2 children when they
are over 25.
>>>

You are going to just love this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=upyewL0oaWA


John  ; )
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Thu Apr  3 20:58:38 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:58:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
	<47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
	<2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F544FE.4040905@insightbb.com>

That's terrific! It would be funnier if it wasn't so close to reality!
Fortunately for us, genetics includes recessive traits and a great 
amount of variability so that some of those descendants can still become 
doctors and scientists!


John Grigg wrote:
> Kevin Freels wrote:
> The problem children you describe are not representative of the entire 
> generation. I assure you that there are many good kids out there and 
> they far outnumber the evil little devils described here. However, you 
> are right that this is changing. Educated people are not having 
> children at the same rate as the grown-up versions of these problem 
> children. These kids are going out, getting pregnant at 14-19 years 
> old, having several children. They are unable to guide them and 
> nurture them into responsible lives so they repeat the cycle. 
> Meanwhile, those who are well educated go on to college, get a career 
> started and then MAY have 1 or 2 children when they are over 25.
> >>>
>  
> You are going to just love this...
>  
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=upyewL0oaWA
>  
>  
> John  ; )
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   
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From amara at amara.com  Thu Apr  3 20:33:52 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:33:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] NASA Associate Administrator Stern resigns
Message-ID: <p06230901c41aef0abbbc@[10.0.10.217]>

... and follow up ...

:-(
Amara

----------------------------------------------------------------

PLANETARY EXPLORATION NEWSLETTER
Volume 2, Number 19 (April 3, 2008)

PEN Website: http://planetarynews.org
Editor: Mark V. Sykes
Co-Editors: Matt Balme, Nic Richmond
Email: pen_editor at psi.edu

o---------------------------------------------------------------------o

SPECIAL: A FAREWELL MESSAGE FROM ALAN STERN, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR
FOR NASA'S SCIENCE MISSION DIRECTORATE, NASA HEADQUARTERS

As you probably know by now, I have announced my resignation as
NASA's Associate Administrator for SMD and will be departing at the
end of this week. Dr. Ed Weiler will assume this post on Monday
April 7.

I assure you that my decision to resign came only after several
months of hard thought and reflection about the consequences of
spiraling mission costs that SMD could not control. In the end, this
became an important matter of principle that trumped even my boss,
NASA Administrator Mike Griffin's desire for me to stay and my regard
for him.

I want you to know that I remain highly impressed with Mike Griffin,
and I am as excited as ever at the fundamental progress he is making
in renewing human space flight toward a better future centered on the
exploration of the solar system.

In the past year, SMD accomplished a great deal-making the first word
in SMD-Science-first in our priorities and first in our portfolio.
This resulted in R&A increases and process improvements, new Earth
science and lunar science initiatives, expanded suborbital programs,
and multiple new mission starts in each of our four science
Divisions. I believe we also demonstrated the benefits of management
discipline, transparency, and innovation to advancing the Earth and
space sciences within NASA, and we began demonstrating how SMD can be
more relevant to American society.

During my tenure at NASA I met many, many fine people and came to
realize that few outside NASA realize just how talented, dedicated,
and relentlessly hard working the Headquarters staff and management
team is.

I am extremely proud of the work done by the staff of SMD and the
reforms to project and processes that we undertook. I want to extend
my thanks to SMD's staff, its Division Directors and their deputies,
and to the dedicated leadership of the SMD front office team, for
that hard work. I am also proud of the very strong relationship we
re-forged with the scientific community.

As SMD now moves forward, I want to tell you that Ed Weiler is an
incredibly talented, energetic, dedicated manager and civil servant
who cares deeply about science.  You can rest assured that with Ed at
the helm, SMD's future is in capable hands.

But Ed will need your help to maintain the positive pace of change
going forward in SMD and its research and mission portfolio. It is my
opinion that this can be done only by carefully controlling mission
costs. I ask you to work closely with Ed for the continued betterment
of SMD and NASA.

I'll close now by thanking all of you who have written of your
support in the past week, and by saying that I look forward to seeing
you in the future we make for ourselves.

Alan Stern


***********************************************************************
*
* The Planetary Exploration Newsletter is issued approximately weekly.
* Current and back issues are available at
*
* http://planetarynews.org
*
* To subscribe, go to http://planetarynews.org/pen_subscribe.html
*
* To unsubscribe, go to http://planetarynews.org/pen_unsubscribe.html
*
* Please send all replies and submissions to pen_editor at psi.edu.
* Announcements and other messages should be brief with links to URLs
* for extended information, including detailed descriptions for job
* announcements. Go to the PEN website for submission directions.
************************************************************************

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 21:18:08 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:18:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] NASA Associate Administrator Stern resigns
In-Reply-To: <p06230901c41aef0abbbc@10.0.10.217>
References: <p06230901c41aef0abbbc@10.0.10.217>
Message-ID: <580930c20804031418p6f2a7095yd82308df9cb30b5a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:33 PM, Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
> ... and follow up ...
>
> :-(

I cannot really say that I understand, amongst all the feel-good
statements, why he resigns, what he really thinks, what this is going
to change at NASA, or for that matter anything else.

Stefano Vaj


From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr  4 01:14:31 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:14:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek>
	<47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>	<47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
	<2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA64085EF87B82-EB0-319A@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>

Yes, that little clip shows just how disgenesis is bringing down the lowest common denomenator even further. Combined with the general relation between lawlesness, violence etc and IQ. I think the little darlings that I described may be the norm in the future. Now that's a depressing thought. It's also the main reason I avidly defend the rights of people to participate in stupid, dangerous and life threatening activities and take which ever chemical substances they want.
Need I say more?
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 19:17
Subject: Re: [ExI] the really important urgent issues



>>>

?

You are going to just?love this...

?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=upyewL0oaWA

?

?

John? ; )





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr  4 01:29:34 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:29:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>

This is why all military systems need more than one failsafe before firing and?should never be fully autonomous. The last failsafe should always being?a human (even that wasn't good enough in this case). I'd like to think?it's also a pretty good?example of why an AGI will be bad. Not because it will use weapon like this, but just because it could cause major damage with the systems it may have access to. Damage caused not through desire or design, Just because it can. Or more correctly, because we didn't account for it doing something we didn't think about.

Undoubtably this tradgedy is down to a design flaw somewhere, HW or SW. I just hope the lesson is learned.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:55
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI



Sorry guys, but I found this just too compelling to pass up.

Robot Cannon Kills 9, Wounds 14
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki.html

Best, Jeff Davis

"White people are clever, but they are not wise."
          Ishi, the last of the Yahi nation
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 02:51:13 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:51:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 03 April 2008, Brent Neal wrote:
> On 3 Apr, 2008, at 0:26, John K Clark wrote:
> > The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of ?
> > trillion dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn
> > for sure that the idea just isn't going to work
>
> Citations, please? :P

I second this motion. Last month I visited UT Austin, they have a lab 
with kids my age launching rockets and mini satellites on the cehap 
(and they are dead broke); adding in power-sat stuff seems more like a 
matter of knowledge than 'trillions of dollars'.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 05:38:37 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:38:37 +1100
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

>  Undoubtably this tradgedy is down to a design flaw somewhere, HW or SW. I
> just hope the lesson is learned.

Humans are also subject to HW and SW flaws. In the final analysis, you
have to take a risk in trusting someone or something.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 13:59:19 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 06:59:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:38 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>
> > 2 trillion is on a par with the Iraq war.  It's got to be a better
>  investment than that.
>
>  Yea but so is digging holes and then filling them up again.

74 million b/day x $100 /b is 7.4 billion a day.  Times 365 that's
$2.7 trillion a year.  I don't think the investment is close to two
trillion, but if it is, it's still a good investment.

>  >There is a lot of uranium considering how heavy it is, but it's
>  > rarely concentrated.
>
>  If we run out of uranium you can always switch to Thorium, you can make
>  reactors (and bombs) with that too and it's much more common than uranium,
>  about as common as lead in fact. Or you could make breeder rectors and use
>  plutonium, but that scares the hell out of me.

Why does it scare you?  Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium
without Pu 240 in it, the stuff isn't suitable for bombs.  (The 240
makes it detonate prematurely, with much less yield.)  The problem is
you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.

>  > The current choices are space elevator, lasers and rockets in
>  > order both  of decreasing efficiency and risk.
>
>  If you had a space elevator then power satellites would certainly make
>  sense because you'd have a much better way to get that energy down to earth
>  and could forget about those stupid microwaves that were always the
>  weak link in the idea.

I have been up on the subject since the mid 1970s and microwave
transmission was never considered a problem.  Why do you think it is?
 How do you think the space elevator could be used in the place of
microwaves?  (Making antimatter and bring it down in a bag is a
*joke.*)  Even if it could be, an elevator has to come down close to
the equator and there isn't much demand for power there.

Keith


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:20:03 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:20:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>
	<200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 03 April 2008, Brent Neal wrote:
>  > On 3 Apr, 2008, at 0:26, John K Clark wrote:
>  > > The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of
>  > > trillion dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn
>  > > for sure that the idea just isn't going to work
>  >
>  > Citations, please? :P
>
>  I second this motion. Last month I visited UT Austin, they have a lab
>  with kids my age launching rockets and mini satellites on the cehap
>  (and they are dead broke); adding in power-sat stuff seems more like a
>  matter of knowledge than 'trillions of dollars'.

It's not a small project, my guess is on a par with going to the moon
the first time.  That puts it in the high hundreds of billions due to
the order of magnitude inflation since those days.

I don't even know which of the three currently proposed transport
methods will work out.  The space elevator has the best return on
energy, but it takes a massive orbital cleanup project plus developing
strong enough nanotube fibers and ways to recover from a cut cable.
Since the output is very low cost energy that can be fed back into the
launch mechanism, requiring a lot of launch energy only delays the
point at which the project starts paying for itself by a few months.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:35:02 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:35:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Humans are also subject to HW and SW flaws. In the final analysis, you
have to take a risk in trusting someone or something.
>>>

But I think at our current fairly low level of technology in this area, that
we are better off for now trusting in humans, rather than fully autonomous
machines.  I realize a "healthy balancing act" is what military planners are
probably hoping to develop.

Alex wrote:
This is why all military systems need more than one failsafe before firing
and should never be fully autonomous. The last failsafe should always
being a human (even that wasn't good enough in this case).
>>>

I believe the time will come (within several decades or less) when we will
see fully autonomous and very lethal weapons systems (especially flying
attack drones, undersea attack drones, ground robots, etc.) being a fairly
common sight on the battlefield.  A problem with at least some failsafes is
that they could be hacked into by a techno savvy enemy and then your
weapon(s) are turned against you.

I found it rather interesting when I learned the maker of the popular robot
vacuum, "Roomba," is making a very nasty looking military robot.  I wonder
if they will be building a home security version... lol

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/roomba-maker-un.html

John Grigg
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:42:07 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:42:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804040742p78eea3c2j7ede415e93b1bb2a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
>  Why does it scare you?  Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium
>  without Pu 240 in it, the stuff isn't suitable for bombs.  (The 240
>  makes it detonate prematurely, with much less yield.)  The problem is
>  you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.
>
>


No. You mean 'the stuff isn't *ideal* for bombs'.

It still makes a pretty big nuclear explosion and terrorists aren't
perfectionists.


Quote:----------------------

Higher concentrations of Pu-240 can result in pre-detonation of the
weapon, significantly reducing yield and reliability. For the
production of weapons-grade plutonium with lower Pu-240
concentrations, the fuel rods in a reactor have to be changed
frequently, about every four months or less.

Some nuclear weapons are typically designed so that a pulse of
neutrons will start the nuclear chain reaction at the optimum moment
for maximum yield; background neutrons from plutonium-240 can set off
the reaction prematurely, and with reactor-grade plutonium the
probability of such "pre-initiation" is large. Pre-initiation can
substantially reduce the explosive yield, since the weapon may blow
itself apart and thereby cut short the chain reaction that releases
the energy.

Nevertheless, even if pre-initiation occurs at the worst possible
moment (when the material first becomes compressed enough to sustain a
chain reaction) the explosive yield of even a relatively simple
first-generation nuclear device would be of the order of one or a few
kilotons. While this yield is referred to as the "fizzle yield," a
one-kiloton bomb would still have a radius of destruction roughly
one-third that of the Hiroshima weapon, making it a potentially
fearsome explosive. Regardless of how high the concentration of
troublesome isotopes is, the yield would not be less.

A successful test was conducted in 1962, which used reactor-grade
plutonium in the nuclear explosive in place of weapon-grade plutonium.
The yield was less than 20 kilotons. This test was conducted to obtain
nuclear design information concerning the feasibility of using
reactor-grade plutonium as the nuclear explosive material. The test
confirmed that reactor-grade plutonium could be used to make a nuclear
explosive. This fact was declassified in July 1977. The release of
additional information was deemed important to enhance public
awareness of nuclear proliferation issues associated with
reactor-grade plutonium that can be separated during reprocessing of
spent commercial reactor fuel. The United States maintains an
extensive nuclear test data base and predictive capabilities. This
information, combined with the results of this low yield test, reveals
that weapons can be constructed with reactor-grade plutonium. Prior to
the 1970's, there were only two terms in use to define plutonium
grades: weapon-grade (no more than 7 percent Pu-240) and reactor-grade
(greater than 7 percent Pu-240). In the early 1970's, the term
fuel-grade (approximately 7 percent to 19 percent Pu-240) came into
use, which shifted the reactor-grade definition 19 percent or greater
Pu-240.

-----------------------------------

Ref:  <http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/pu-isotope.htm>



BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:50:07 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:50:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804040750h3e58eecenc4616c15cd78486a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:35 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> I believe the time will come (within several decades or less) when we will
> see fully autonomous and very lethal weapons systems (especially flying
> attack drones, undersea attack drones, ground robots, etc.) being a fairly
> common sight on the battlefield.



Hey, a few of these could solve Alex's problem of defending his
property against feral youth!   ;)


BillK


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Fri Apr  4 14:39:29 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:39:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <47F63DA1.9030006@lightlink.com>

ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> This is why all military systems need more than one failsafe before 
> firing and should never be fully autonomous. The last failsafe should 
> always being a human (even that wasn't good enough in this case). I'd 
> like to think it's also a pretty good example of why an AGI will be bad. 
> Not because it will use weapon like this, but just because it could 
> cause major damage with the systems it may have access to. Damage caused 
> not through desire or design, Just because it can. Or more correctly, 
> because we didn't account for it doing something we didn't think about.

As I have argued at length elsewhere, the conclusion you just arrived at 
  - that this is "a pretty good example of why an AGI will be bad" - is 
critically dependent on many assumptions about what the architecture of 
an AGI would look like.  The default assumption that everyone makes 
about how an AGI will be controlled (namely, that it will be controlled 
by a 'Goal-Stack drive mechanism') would support your conclusion.

However, this GS drive mechanism is not only a bad way to drive an 
intelligent system, it may not even scale to the type of system that we 
refer to as an AGI.  That means that there may *never* be such a thing 
as a real, human-level, autonomous AGI system that is govern by a 
Goal-Stack architecture.

By contrast, the type of drive mechanism that I have referred to in the 
past as a 'Motivational-Emotional System' would be immune to such problems.

You know those human beings that you wanted to use as the last failsafe? 
  They use an MES drive mechanism, but this particular type fo MES has 
some obvious design flaws which are clearly not enough to make humans 
immune to the problem of going on a rampage.  But that means that in our 
experience we have *never* encountered any type of intelligent system 
whose design was so good that all individuals of that type could be said 
to be "immune to such problems".  Because we never see such intelligent 
systems, we assume that it is ridiculous for anyone to make the claim 
that an AGI design could be "immune to such problems".

Nevertheless, this is exactly what is claimed:  it is possible to build 
an AGI in such a way that it would be not only as safe as the most 
trustworthy human being you old imagine, but a great deal more so.  And 
that goes for both the safety problem (unintentional mistakes) and the 
friendliness problem (intentional melevolence).

You can find lengthier discussions of these issues in the archives of 
the AGI and Singularity lists, but I am also in the process of 
collecting all this material into a more accessible form.



Richard Loosemore





> Undoubtably this tradgedy is down to a design flaw somewhere, HW or SW. 
> I just hope the lesson is learned.
> 
> Alex
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:55
> Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
> 
> Sorry guys, but I found this just too compelling to pass up.
> 
> Robot Cannon Kills 9, Wounds 14
> http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki.html
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis
> 
> "White people are clever, but they are not wise."
>           Ishi, the last of the Yahi nation
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour 
> <http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/> now.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Apr  4 15:24:08 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:24:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Researcher Needed
Message-ID: <20080404152617.NTVS28059.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>


I have a research opening.  If you are a researcher and have any time 
to work with me virtually this weekend for approximately 4 hours, 
please contact me at by email at natasha at natasha.cc.

Bty, for those of you on the Singularity list, this is not an April 
1st spoof :-)

Many thanks,
Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More, 
BFA, MS, MPhil
University Lecturer
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics
Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr  4 15:35:32 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:35:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.m
	axmore.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
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	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/1/2008 -0500, Max More wrote:

>Are you sure that a
>true free market in medical care wouldn't be a major improvement.
>
>Answer me with a "yes, of course, you market-lovin' bozo", and it
>might spur me to finally put together a piece (for my brand spanking
>new blog) on what steps toward such a system might be.

I'm in general agreement with this piece today in the NYT by Paul Krugman:


Elizabeth Edwards has cancer. John McCain has had 
cancer in the past. Last weekend, Mrs. Edwards 
bluntly pointed out that neither of them would be 
able to get insurance under Mr. McCain?s health care plan.

It?s about time someone said that and, more 
generally, made the case that Mr. McCain?s 
approach to health care is based on voodoo 
economics ? not the supply-side voodoo that 
claims that cutting taxes increases revenues 
(though Mr. McCain says that, too), but the 
equally foolish claim, refuted by all available 
evidence, that the magic of the marketplace can 
produce cheap health care for everyone.

As Mrs. Edwards pointed out, the McCain health 
plan would do nothing to prevent insurance 
companies from denying coverage to those, like 
her and Mr. McCain, who have pre-existing medical conditions.

The McCain campaign?s response was condescending 
and dismissive ? a statement that Mrs. Edwards 
doesn?t understand the comprehensive nature of 
the senator?s approach, which would harness ?the 
power of competition to produce greater coverage 
for Americans,? reducing costs so that even 
people with pre-existing conditions could afford care.

This is nonsense on multiple levels.

For one thing, even if you buy the premise that 
competition would reduce health care costs, the 
idea that it could cut costs enough to make 
insurance affordable for Americans with a history 
of cancer or other major diseases is sheer fantasy.

Beyond that, there?s no reason to believe in 
these alleged cost reductions. Insurance 
companies do try to hold down ?medical losses? ? 
the industry?s term for what happens when an 
insurer actually ends up having to honor its 
promises by paying a client?s medical bills. But 
they don?t do this by promoting cost-effective medical care.

Instead, they hold down costs by only covering 
healthy people, screening out those who need 
coverage the most ? which was exactly the point 
Mrs. Edwards was making. They also deny as many 
claims as possible, forcing doctors and hospitals 
to spend large sums fighting to get paid.

And the international evidence on health care 
costs is overwhelming: the United States has the 
most privatized system, with the most market 
competition ? and it also has by far the highest 
health care costs in the world.

Yet the McCain health plan ? actually a set of 
bullet points on the campaign?s Web site ? is 
entirely based on blind faith that competition 
among private insurers will solve all problems.

I?d like to single out one of these bullet points 
in particular ? the first substantive proposal 
Mr. McCain offers (the preceding entries are 
nothing but feel-good boilerplate).

As I?ve mentioned in past columns, the Veterans 
Health Administration is one of the few clear 
American success stories in the struggle to 
contain health care costs. Since it was reformed 
during the Clinton years, the V.A. has used the 
fact that it?s an integrated system ? a system 
that takes long-term responsibility for its 
clients? health ? to deliver an impressive 
combination of high-quality care and low costs. 
It has also taken the lead in the use of 
information technology, which has both saved money and reduced medical errors.

Sure enough, Mr. McCain wants to privatize and, 
in effect, dismantle the V.A. Naturally, this 
destructive agenda comes wrapped in the flag: 
?America?s veterans have fought for our freedom,? 
says the McCain Web site. ?We should give them 
freedom to choose to carry their V.A. dollars to 
a provider that gives them the timely care at 
high quality and in the best location.?

That?s a recipe for having healthy veterans drop 
out of the system, undermining its integrated 
nature and draining away resources.

Mr. McCain, then, is offering a completely 
wrongheaded approach to health care. But the way 
the campaign for the Democratic nomination has 
unfolded raises questions about how effective his 
eventual opponent will be in making that point.

Indeed, while Mrs. Edwards focused her criticism 
on Mr. McCain, she also made it clear that she 
prefers Hillary Clinton?s approach ? ?Sen. 
Clinton?s plan is a great plan? ? to Barack 
Obama?s. The Clinton plan closely resembles the 
plan for universal coverage that John Edwards 
laid out more than a year ago. By contrast, Mr. 
Obama offers a watered-down plan that falls short 
of universality, and it would have higher costs per person covered.

Worse yet, Mr. Obama attacked his Democratic 
rivals? health plans using conservative talking 
points about choice and the evil of having the 
government tell you what to do. That?s going to 
make it hard ? if he is the nominee ? to refute 
Mr. McCain when he makes similar arguments on 
behalf of such things as privatizing veterans? care.

Still, health care ought to be a major issue in 
this campaign. I wonder if we?ll have time to 
discuss it after we deal with more important 
subjects, like bowling and basketball.





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr  4 16:51:36 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:51:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>

At 10:35 AM 4/4/2008 -0500, I quoted Krugman:

>Elizabeth Edwards has cancer. John McCain has had
>cancer in the past. Last weekend, Mrs. Edwards
>bluntly pointed out that neither of them would be
>able to get insurance under Mr. McCain's health care plan.[...]
>
>As Mrs. Edwards pointed out, the McCain health
>plan would do nothing to prevent insurance
>companies from denying coverage to those, like
>her and Mr. McCain, who have pre-existing medical conditions.

Barbara Lamar points out to me that <"Insurance" is not really 
insurance if the event it's expected to protect against already has a 
probability of 1.>

True. The part of the quoted sentences to place emphasis on is 
"health care plan" or system rather than "insurance" which is a 
mechanism.  If everyone is covered from conception or birth on, 
nobody (yet) knows what maladies will arise for any individual.

Many here will assert that it is unjust to burden the healthy and 
young with costs imposed by the sick and elderly. I suppose the only 
response is that values other than justice are also embraced by most 
humans. There is also the prudential consideration that none of us 
can be certain of remaining healthy or avoiding costly injury. What's 
more, for epidemiological reasons, everyone's health is improved by 
making sure as few people as possible get and remain sick.

Does this mean those whose choices predictably *make* them sick or 
damaged get a free handout at the expense of the rest? I certainly 
resent that as well, but there might be subtle cost-benefit 
calculations that produce non-intuitive minimax solutions.

Damien Broderick




From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  4 18:21:01 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:21:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>


>
> I'm in general agreement with this piece today in the NYT by Paul Krugman:
>
>
> Elizabeth Edwards has cancer. John McCain has had 
> cancer in the past. Last weekend, Mrs. Edwards 
> bluntly pointed out that neither of them would be 
> able to get insurance under Mr. McCain's health care plan.
>
>   
Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is what has 
caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place. People no longer saw 
nor cared what they were being charged because someone else was paying 
the bill so the market forces controlling costs were removed. It's the 
cost of BS we all pay.

For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to the ER at 3 
am because she had a nosebleed that started at 9pm and hadn't stopped. 
We waited 3 hours, then saw a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked 
like a small tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for 
the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out of 
curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the 15 minutes and the 
"tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was another $300 worth of supplies and 
such. I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error and they 
said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical device" they put in 
her nose was "medicated". I was supposed to return in 3 days to have it 
removed which would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in 
insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the thing out myself 
with no trouble at all and the bleeding was obviously gone.

I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in 
such short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or  allowing  
practicing nurses to  do more would be in order and help to drive some 
of these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t working because 
the market is not free.
 


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From jonkc at att.net  Fri Apr  4 17:42:32 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:42:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> I don't think you understand the problem.  Neutrons plus depleted uranium
> equals weapons grade plutonium

I know.

> better than any made in the cold war.

You're right, I don't know what that means.

> Why does it [plutonium] scare you?

Besides being far more toxic than uranium a Plutonium economy world probably
require breeder reactors, and they have a much higher energy density than a
regular reactor and that means it's inherently more dangerous with less
margin of error.  A conventional reactor uses Uranium as fuel in which the
U235 has been enriched from the naturally occurring .7% concentration to
about 4%,  you need about 85% to make a bomb.

A breeder uses weapons grade plutonium as a fuel, and lots of it. Also, a
conventional reactor uses water as a coolant and to slow down the neutrons,
a breeder uses molten sodium that burns in the air and explodes in the
presents of water. After a short time in operation this hot liquid sodium
becomes intensely radioactive.  And that's not just a theoretical danger, in
1996 a leak in a sodium pump destroyed the newest and largest breeder
reactor in Japan, if it wasn't in a containment building it could have been
a human disaster. It's already an economic disaster of several hundred
million dollars.

> Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium without Pu 240 in it, the
> stuff isn't suitable for bombs.

The very first nuclear bomb at Trinity had lots of Pu 240 in it as did the
bomb that destroyed Nagasaki. When the bomb makers realized it was hard
to make pure Pu 239 it created a crisis, they discovered that because of the
pre-detonation caused by that contaminate the gun method of assembly
wouldn't work for Plutonium. But they soon found a substitute, implosion,
and that worked just fine thank you very much.

And I Don't understand what you are trying to say. First you say reactors
are dangerous because they produce Plutonium then you say they're not.

> The problem is you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.

Yes if you limit the time the U238 is in the neutron flux, but it's seldom
done because it limits yield, better to be clever in the way you assemble
the Plutonium to critical mass.

> How do you think the space elevator could be used in the place of
> microwaves?

Boy that's a tough question! I'll have to think about that.

> Making antimatter and bring it down in a bag is a *joke.*

I could be wrong but I believe I read somewhere that scientists have
discovered another way of sending energy down a wire.

> Even if it could be, an elevator has to come down close to the
> equator and > there isn't much demand for power there.

Not now but things change, it's not unreasonable to think industry might
move to where energy is cheap.

 John K Clark









From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 18:33:30 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 11:33:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804040742p78eea3c2j7ede415e93b1bb2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0804040742p78eea3c2j7ede415e93b1bb2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804041133s5e1dcf2fu9d6fbf365001b476@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 7:42 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
>  >  Why does it scare you?  Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium
>  >  without Pu 240 in it, the stuff isn't suitable for bombs.  (The 240
>  >  makes it detonate prematurely, with much less yield.)  The problem is
>  >  you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.
>
>  No. You mean 'the stuff isn't *ideal* for bombs'.

Correction accepted.

>  It still makes a pretty big nuclear explosion and terrorists aren't
>  perfectionists.

Snip

It might be noted that with the resources of a country (of sorts) the
North Koreans got one made out of spent reactor fuel to go off with an
estimated yield of 0.4 kt.  That's not much of a nuke, but I agree it
would make a hell of a mess in a city.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 19:26:24 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:26:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
Message-ID: <2d6187670804041226o471f1dedpb1df3e54fba47992@mail.gmail.com>

I have very mixed feelings about airport behavioral screening and though it
does seem to "catch some bad fish" in a wide net, I still think it is a
severe violation of American civil liberties and should be stopped.  If the
standard airport screeners do their job properly (x-raying, bag search, body
wanding, etc.) this is not a crucial activity.  What is happening to the
United States government and the general public?  I feel like we are headed
down a slippery slope toward doing things like Communist China or Russia.
And Osama and his thugs have ultimately won if that happens.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VR7AN80&show_article=1&catnum=0


John  : (
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 20:05:51 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:05:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] One-hundred-fold improvement in exoplanet resolution
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804041305x7ba94b61h827aae94443b7923@mail.gmail.com>

How to Find Other "Earths"

A new laser technique could locate planets much like our own.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/20509/?nlid=982

"...system increases the precision of spectrographs--optics used to
analyze light from distant stars--by a hundred times, and it should
make it possible to detect Earth-like planets."

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 20:23:09 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:23:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:42 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

snip
>
>  And I Don't understand what you are trying to say. First you say reactors
>  are dangerous because they produce Plutonium then you say they're not.

*All* reactors make plutonium.  If you advocate using them for power
you are advocating making plutonium.  It's unavoidable.

snip

>  > How do you think the space elevator could be used in the place of
>  > microwaves?
>
>  Boy that's a tough question! I'll have to think about that.
>
>  > Making antimatter and bring it down in a bag is a *joke.*
>
>  I could be wrong but I believe I read somewhere that scientists have
>  discovered another way of sending energy down a wire.

Please do some calculations on this one.  Nanotube cable probably
won't be much of a conductor.  But even if it was 50 times as good as
copper please figure the current, voltage and loses involved in 22,000
miles.  Next, how you are going to keep the cables from shorting out
in the rather conductive ionosphere and how you are going to restrain
the magnetic forces pushing the cables apart?  (A giant coax might
solve some of them.)

I am certainly not welded to microwave power transmission.  If you

>  > Even if it could be, an elevator has to come down close to the
>  > equator and > there isn't much demand for power there.
>
>  Not now but things change, it's not unreasonable to think industry might
>  move to where energy is cheap.

There are in theory ways to move and even store this kind of power,
see Keith Lofstrom's work, but they involve technology that is even
bigger than power sats.

Keith


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 22:14:58 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:14:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804041714.59187.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 04 April 2008, Kevin Freels wrote:
> I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in
> such short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or
> ?allowing ? practicing nurses to ?do more would be in order and help
> to drive some of these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t
> working because the market is not free.

The people getting into med school are sketchy as it is:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/

Click around and start wondering about these people.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 22:18:49 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:18:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 04 April 2008, Keith Henson wrote:
> I don't even know which of the three currently proposed transport
> methods will work out. ?The space elevator has the best return on
> energy, but it takes a massive orbital cleanup project plus
> developing strong enough nanotube fibers and ways to recover from a
> cut cable. Since the output is very low cost energy that can be fed
> back into the launch mechanism, requiring a lot of launch energy only
> delays the point at which the project starts paying for itself by a
> few months.

Have you considered the solar power satellite people? They are 
suggesting power-beaming back to the surface, but this does in fact 
require quite large satellite dishes for the rectifiers.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr  4 23:00:14 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:00:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] solar power satellites
In-Reply-To: <200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404175848.024800f0@satx.rr.com>

At 05:18 PM 4/4/2008 -0500, Bryan wrote:

>Have you considered the solar power satellite people? They are
>suggesting power-beaming back to the surface, but this does in fact
>require quite large satellite dishes for the rectifiers.

Um, what do you suppose Keith has been *talking* about for the last 
few days? (And, of course, decades?)

Damien Broderick 



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr  4 23:24:25 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:24:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804041226o471f1dedpb1df3e54fba47992@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804042352.m34NqPqO003214@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
	Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 12:26 PM
	To: ExI chat list
	Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
	
	
	>...I have very mixed feelings about airport behavioral screening
and though it does seem to "catch some bad fish" in a wide net, I still
think it is a severe violation of American civil liberties and should be
stopped...we are headed down a slippery slope toward doing things like
Communist China or Russia.  And Osama and his thugs have ultimately won if
that happens.   
	 
	 
	
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VR7AN80&show_article=1&catnum=0
	 
	 
	John  : (



Johnny, your comment would have been more convincing had it not been posted
the same day as this:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1158565

When this sort of thing comes out, there are always those who point out
there are scary christians as well.  With the recent revelation of Rev.
Jeremiah Wright pumping his congregation with toxic racist hatred, I would
now be forced to cede their point.

spike





From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr  5 00:54:20 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 19:54:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] solar power satellites
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404175848.024800f0@satx.rr.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404175848.024800f0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804041954.20955.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 04 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Um, what do you suppose Keith has been *talking* about for the last
> few days? (And, of course, decades?)

He was mentioning transport costs, I assumed the cost of transporting 
the energy. Wrong-- oops.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr  5 01:26:19 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:26:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804040750h3e58eecenc4616c15cd78486a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>	<f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>	<2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0804040750h3e58eecenc4616c15cd78486a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA64D32F65F05E-11B0-1D13@WEBMAIL-DC17.sysops.aol.com>

I formally renounce my initial condemnation of such machines,........where can I get one? ;o)


-----Original Message-----
From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:50
Subject: Re: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI



On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:35 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> I believe the time will come (within several decades or less) when we will
> see fully autonomous and very lethal weapons systems (especially flying
> attack drones, undersea attack drones, ground robots, etc.) being a fairly
> common sight on the battlefield.



Hey, a few of these could solve Alex's problem of defending his
property against feral youth!   ;)


BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From amara at amara.com  Sat Apr  5 03:50:05 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 21:50:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  Behavioral Screeners
Message-ID: <p06230900c41ca6382ebd@[192.168.0.66]>

Spike:
>Johnny, your comment would have been more convincing had it not been posted
>the same day as this:
>http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1158565

I think my post from last month is still relevant:

Feel safer now?
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-March/041800.html

 From Boing Boing:
Debating the feasibility of an in-flight liquid bomb
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/04/debating-the-feasibi.html

"A UK court finally heard evidence about the bizarre liquid-explosive
plot hatched in 2006 by some fairly unrealistic suicide bombers, the
origin of the global ban on taking liquids through aviation security
checkpoints. The plan? To mix Tang and peroxide in Lucozade bottles and
make airplanes go boom. Ever since the plot first came to light,
chemists and explosives experts have been highly skeptical of it
working, and the TSA and UK authorities have blithely insisted that they
believe it could come true.

Now, readers of Bruce Schneier's security blog are invited to weigh in
on the feasibility of such a scheme, given the information that just
emerged in court:"

Schneier and his readers:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/the_liquid_bomb.html

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From amara at amara.com  Sat Apr  5 03:56:12 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 21:56:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  solar power satellites
Message-ID: <p06230901c41ca8159e98@[192.168.0.66]>


My long comment here
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/wiredscience/blogs/2007/10/deep-impact-sputnik.html#comment-373

could provide some useful background information to the solar power satellite
idea as well.

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr  5 04:15:47 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 21:15:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <p06230900c41ca6382ebd@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <200804050444.m354hseV023202@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

>...On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
> 
> Spike:
> >Johnny, your comment would have been more convincing had it not been 
> >posted the same day as this:
> >http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1158565
> 
> ...chemists and explosives experts have been highly skeptical of 
> it working, and the TSA and UK authorities have blithely 
> insisted that they believe it could come true.
> 
> Now, readers of Bruce Schneier's security blog are invited to 
> weigh in on the feasibility of such a scheme, given the 
> information that just emerged in court:"
> 
> Schneier and his readers:
> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/the_liquid_bomb.html
> 
> Amara

Amara, it sounds like they didn't really have the means to blow up these
planes with the technology they were using.  This is reassuring to some
extent, so yes in that sense I do feel safer now.  They only *wanted* to
blow up planes, but couldn't because the screening system disallows
sufficient quantities of liquids.  Were this not the case, their job would
be easy: they could carry a number of bottles of pure alcohol, nothing more
sophisticated required: a few liters poured on the floor, ignited with an
improvised computer-battery powered nichrome loop for instance.  Good chance
that would cause a crash, for the in-flight inferno would be very difficult
to extinguish.

spike





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr  5 05:01:31 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:01:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804050444.m354hseV023202@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <p06230900c41ca6382ebd@[192.168.0.66]>
	<200804050444.m354hseV023202@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>

At 09:15 PM 4/4/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

>They only *wanted* to
>blow up planes, but couldn't because the screening system disallows
>sufficient quantities of liquids.  Were this not the case, their job would
>be easy: they could carry a number of bottles of pure alcohol, nothing more
>sophisticated required: a few liters poured on the floor, ignited with an
>improvised computer-battery powered nichrome loop for instance.  Good chance
>that would cause a crash, for the in-flight inferno would be very difficult
>to extinguish.

I know zero about aircraft design, but this suddenly frightens the 
heck out of me--once you're dealing with a potentially indefinite 
number of religiously inspired would-be martyrs, there must be a vast 
number of ways to crash a plane. I wonder if it might be necessary to 
strip search *everyone* boarding, and not allow *anything* to be 
carried on board by passengers, maybe not even their own clothing. 
Copious entertainment can be provided now to each seat, even 
(amazing!) *text* on screen from something like the google scan of 
the world's libraries, and new magazines, blogs, etc. I wonder if 
luggage might be sent in separate planes, perhaps robot-controlled?

Damien Broderick




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr  5 17:44:12 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 10:44:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
> 
> At 09:15 PM 4/4/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:
> 
> >They only *wanted* to blow up planes...  Good chance that would cause a
crash, for the in-flight 
> >inferno would be very difficult to extinguish.
> 

Damien modestly opined:

> I know zero about aircraft design, but this suddenly 
> frightens the heck out of me--once you're dealing with a 
> potentially indefinite number of religiously inspired 
> would-be martyrs, there must be a vast number of ways to 
> crash a plane...

Well not really.  Surely bare-handed aspiring martyrs would find it
difficult indeed, assuming they cannot penetrate the easily-reinforced
bulkhead to the cockpit, first with sturdy structure, second with Mister
Magnum, FortyFour Magnum.

> I wonder if it might be necessary to strip 
> search *everyone* boarding, and not allow *anything* to be 
> carried on board by passengers...

Actually I think that is coming, but not to the US first.  I could see it
starting in England and open-minded Holland, then becoming eventually
standard practice everywhere radical Presbyterians don't like.

> ...maybe not even their own clothing...

With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
friendly skies.

> Copious entertainment can be provided now to each seat...

Understatement.  Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "copious
entertainment provided to each seat."

> ...even (amazing!) *text* on screen from something like the google 
> scan of the world's libraries, ...

Would *anyone* still able to concentrate on the world's libraries?  I have
*never* seen anything in a library that could compete.  

> and new magazines, blogs, etc...  

There has never been the magazine or blog interesting enough to get a
minute's attention from me under those circumstances, pal.
 
> I wonder if luggage might be sent in separate planes, perhaps 
> robot-controlled? Damien Broderick

That is a helllllll of an idea man!  A remote controlled or autonomous
dinghy plane that follows the passenger plane, the luggage (and clothing)
plane gets diverted, think of the fun we could have with that.  Of course
the lines to the restrooms would stretch the length of the cabin.  But I
digress.

Back to the original point, the scenario that I imagined was the one of a
prole starting a fire with some kind of accelerant.  Plain old ethanol might
be the liquid of choice, for a radical Presbyterian or a member of the
Wright-guard might be able to create a plastic form-fitting bladder of some
sort that looks like an ordinary beer-belly, thereby get several liters of
the stuff aboard, for the metal detector wouldn't complain, nor would that
wand they use to get all proctological on randomly selected passengers.  The
back of the envelope calcs would look like this.  

Let me temporarily jump into English units because a mole is close enough to
a cubic foot for single digit BOTECs.  A typical passenger B737 main cabin
is about 100 feet long and perhaps 13 feet in diameter, so close enough to
10000 cubic feet of proles, so that's a couple thousand moles of oxygen.
Now, just to see if I still remember how to do this:

C2H5OH is ethanol, right?  C2H5OH + 3O2 -> 2CO2 + 3 H20  Does that balance?
Ja, OK.

So about 2000 moles of oxygen would require 2000/3, about 700 moles of
ethanol, and a mole of ethanol is 2*12+16+6*1=46 grams, so about 30000 grams
or about 40 liters of ethanol (about ten gallons for the anglophiles among
us) would burn up the oxygen in a jet passenger cabin and never mind any
explosion or the subsequent conflagration started with other flammables on
the plane itself, and this all without even breaking out a pencil or looking
up anything on the web, the raw material readily available at your better
liquor stores for a hundred dollars.

I looked up and found that the B737 is about 3500 cubic feet for passenger
and freight combined, so now we are at 3 gallons, but it is likely waaay
overkill to assume a prole would need to stoichiometrically consume all the
oxygen in an aircraft to cause it's midflight demise.  I can imagine a third
of that, plus the subsequent heat would be murderously sufficient, so now a
single gallon of ethanol smuggled past the vilified overworked and underpaid
rent-a-cops could slay a hundred or more infidels. 

>From that perspective, I am pleasantly amazed no one ever tried to take down
a plane this way back in the bad days when they let proles carry flammable
liquids on board.  I will not complain a bit about not being allowed to
carry that stuff now.  Soon we may be invited to fly the naked skies of
United.  {8^D

Point: if it is this easy for us to think of these notions, the bad guys are
thinking too.  {8-| 

We need to think ahead of them. 

spike  






 



From jonkc at att.net  Sat Apr  5 17:34:01 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:34:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> *All* reactors make plutonium.

Yes as I've said many many times.

> If you advocate using them for power
> you are advocating making plutonium.
> It's unavoidable.

It's too late to worry about that, the world is already awash in plutonium,
as well as completed ready to go H bombs. I suspect that in Russia gold is
guarded more securely than H bombs.

> Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.

At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity than
silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even some
indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic conductors, that
means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their length; at least 
that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how one 22000 miles
long would behave except to say it would be better than any metal. 
Maybe much much better.

> how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables
> apart?

Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry
a lot of current.

  John K Clark






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr  5 18:21:12 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:21:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>

At 10:44 AM 4/5/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

> > ...maybe not even their own clothing...
>
>With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
>They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
>make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
>boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
>radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
>friendly skies.

Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something 
like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes 
available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long 
johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly 
flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate 
clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight 
garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these 
underpaid positions).

Damien Broderick 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  5 18:38:31 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 11:38:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804051138v1b07e099u3a9ea468ffee66a9@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote:
Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something
like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes
available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long
johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly
flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate
clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight
garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these
underpaid positions).

>>>

I can only imagine what will happen when Damien Broderick is made the Aussie
Homeland Security Czar...

John  ;  )
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr  5 20:01:52 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:01:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>

John K Clark wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>   
>> I don't think you understand the problem.  Neutrons plus depleted uranium
>> equals weapons grade plutonium
>>     
>
> I know.
>
>   
>> better than any made in the cold war.
>>     
>
> You're right, I don't know what that means.
>
>   
>> Why does it [plutonium] scare you?
>>     
>
> Besides being far more toxic than uranium a Plutonium economy world probably
> require breeder reactors, and they have a much higher energy density than a
> regular reactor and that means it's inherently more dangerous with less
> margin of error.  A conventional reactor uses Uranium as fuel in which the
> U235 has been enriched from the naturally occurring .7% concentration to
> about 4%,  you need about 85% to make a bomb.
>   

On the other hand breeder reactors use fuel much more efficiently 
producing less waste.  They can also use some current types of "nuclear 
waste" in their fuel cycle.  If we are going to nuclear power there is 
no question that breeders are desirable.  

There are many kinds of reactors only some of which are initially fueled 
with plutonium.    What is "conventional" seems to have been as much due 
to the old anti-nuclear power hysteria than sound technical limitations.   

> A breeder uses weapons grade plutonium as a fuel, and lots of it.
That is not entirely accurate.  See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
Many types of breeders can be built. 

>  Also, a
> conventional reactor uses water as a coolant and to slow down the neutrons,
> a breeder uses molten sodium that burns in the air and explodes in the
> presents of water.
There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms 
including using water.

- samantha


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr  5 20:32:54 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:32:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405153130.0254e2a8@satx.rr.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/5/2008 -0700, samantha wrote:

>There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms
>including using water.

I believe that's the method Spike uses, but there are also some good 
lotions on the market.




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr  5 22:04:05 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:04:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
Message-ID: <200804052231.m35MUoMv008700@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I honestly don't get it.  Disgraced former governor Spitzer pays thousands
for what appears (to me) to be a pretty ordinary hooker:
 
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stkristen-pg,0,1566228.photogalle
ry
 
Yet this brilliant Oxford scholar, jaw dropper, stunning babe as well as
monster brain, only gets hundreds?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=5573
70
<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=557
370&in_page_id=1879> &in_page_id=1879
 
I just don't get it.  A harlot with whom one could actually carry on
meaningful conversation (possibly even about mathematics!) and yet no
premium pricetag?  Someone do explain.
 
spike
 
 
 
 
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From jnh at vt11.net  Sun Apr  6 02:10:03 2008
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 22:10:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
References: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20080406021003.GL1016@vt11.net>

On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 01:01:52PM -0700, samantha wrote:
> On the other hand breeder reactors use fuel much more efficiently 
> producing less waste.  They can also use some current types of "nuclear 
> waste" in their fuel cycle.  If we are going to nuclear power there is 
> no question that breeders are desirable.  
> 
> There are many kinds of reactors only some of which are initially fueled 
> with plutonium.    What is "conventional" seems to have been as much due 
> to the old anti-nuclear power hysteria than sound technical limitations.   
> 
> > A breeder uses weapons grade plutonium as a fuel, and lots of it.
> That is not entirely accurate.  See 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
> Many types of breeders can be built. 

I've always thought the molten-salt designs were particularly elegant.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor

They can be configured as breeders, with the ability to burn Thorium
(Th-U233 cycle) as well as U / Pu, and even heavier actinides from LWR
waste.  The coolant loop is low-pressure and chemically inert, hence
safer than water on both counts.

I could be a tad biased from having read Weinberg's book, though.


> >  Also, a
> > conventional reactor uses water as a coolant and to slow down the neutrons,
> > a breeder uses molten sodium that burns in the air and explodes in the
> > presents of water.
> There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms 
> including using water.
> 
> - samantha

-- 
Jordan.


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Apr  6 06:06:20 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 23:06:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
Message-ID: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>

So dear friends you have been used to me posting updates about my husband James B. Lewis PhD who has bit of historical presence in our community with his "rational gamble" paper written in the Dora Kent case in regards to cryonics as well forming Nanocon early on and his work with the Foresight Institute and nano book editing. As you know in 04 he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, and he had two stem cell transplants, he is doing great! Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
we may both be using this blog now to keep you informed of both of our health. By the way in case you don't know, I made the Dermal display animation and have been gunning for nanotech for oh I guess a decade now through my Nanogirl News list, Nanotechnology industries portal and my animation work (which I am very much focusing on right now). Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

Your friend, 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Health blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 06:35:36 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:35:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>

At 10:34 AM 4/5/2008, John K Clark wrote:
(keith)

> > Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.
>
>At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity than
>silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even some
>indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic conductors, that
>means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their length; at least
>that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how one 22000 miles
>long would behave except to say it would be better than any metal.
>Maybe much much better.
>
> > how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables
> > apart?
>
>Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry
>a lot of current.

Please put numbers on this statement.  I think you will be astounded.

Keith 



From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 08:29:48 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 04:29:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>

Even with naked passengers, no luggage and behavioural screening, It's still just a matter of time before wannabe martyrs start swallowing condoms full of C4.
As with all terrorist threats, the only solution is to remove the intent. That is the hard part and any thing else is just a short term stop gap solution waiting to be circumvented.
Still, naked flights get my approval !

Alex 

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:21
Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners



At 10:44 AM 4/5/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

> > ...maybe not even their own clothing...
>
>With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
>They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
>make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
>boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
>radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
>friendly skies.

Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something 
like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes 
available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long 
johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly 
flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate 
clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight 
garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these 
underpaid positions).

Damien Broderick 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 09:07:22 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 05:07:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <8CA65DCC17359C0-E2C-42DB@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>

Anywhere that there is an interface between two organisations which charge each other for a service or product, there is wastage. This is true of any commercial bodies such as in a private health system and Even in fully publicly funded systems such as a national health service. In the case of national services, this is usually done to bolster inadequate budgets, but also because many people in the system get bonuses of some kind which they try to maximise.
There is always someone skimming off the cream at these interfaces and it is fully accepted.
For some reason we don't like the idea of paying for someone else's health cover, Smokers being a prime example. But we have no problem paying for the CEO's new yauht and a box full of Cuban cigars.
Cost cutting exercises, streamlining and?scrutiny of the system?generally forces these costs down through the chain to the first interfaces, so a tampon cost's $1200
Its a shame that such an expensive tampon can't be used to stop the heamorage of money!

Alex




ginal Message-----
From: Kevin Freels kevinfreels at insightbb.com



 

Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is what has caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place. People no longer saw nor cared what they were being charged because someone else was paying the bill so the market forces controlling costs were removed. It's the cost of BS we all pay. 

For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to the ER at 3 am because she had a nosebleed that started at 9pm and hadn't stopped. We waited 3 hours, then saw a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a small tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out of curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was another $300 worth of supplies and such. I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error and they said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding was obviously gone.

I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or? allowing? practicing nurses to? do more would be in order and help to drive some of these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t working because the market is not free.
?





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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  6 09:34:44 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 02:34:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <47F89934.4020109@mac.com>

ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> Even with naked passengers, no luggage and behavioural screening, It's 
> still just a matter of time before wannabe martyrs start swallowing 
> condoms full of C4.
> As with all terrorist threats, the only solution is to remove the 
> intent. That is the hard part and any thing else is just a short term 
> stop gap solution waiting to be circumvented.
> Still, naked flights get my approval !

The best solution is to stop being so gullible to the message of the 
terror mongers.  The US administration would have us believe that we are 
facing a very higly organized international terror cabal that would put 
the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame.  We have been 
led to believe there are terrorist cells replete with sleepers 
everywhere.  We spent a LOT looking all over the Afghanistan mountains 
for the purported highly sophisticated underground command and control 
bunkers to coordinate it all.  The result?  We found squat.  Pretty much 
all the supposed terrorist cells uncovered in the US have turned out to 
be nothing or very very little.   Yet what has been accomplished?  
Besides the biggest bureaucratic boondoggle and super pork barrel in US 
history, the DHS being created and a trillion or two poured out in Iraq 
and Aghanistan to basically pound sand and in the case of Iraq make the 
country and its people a lot worse off than they were, what else has 
been accomplished?   The what else is that everyone is up in arms and 
thinking in terms of terrorist behind every bush to this very day.   
Perfectly rational wonderful people have had their thinking and 
priorities all screwed up for years.   The administration has got away 
with bold power grabs, out and out illegal activity and pretty much 
wiping its collective ass with the Constitution.  We the people have 
pretty much just gone along as we bleat "whatever it takes to keep us 
s-a-a-f-e".   What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing 
travesty!   

Please wake up.  It is no Muslims, or Al Qaeda (pitiful little group of 
fanatics it really is) that you need to worry about.   It is the end of 
all freedom as you know or have known it.  It is living and being pushed 
about constantly by fear.  It is sinking into a deep dark place where we 
forget about a bright future along with our freedom and turn our not 
inconsiderable intellects to every possible threat and search for, 
Einstein help us, some "final solution".  

Pull up!  We are auguring in! 

- samantha

>
> Alex
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:21
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
>
> At 10:44 AM 4/5/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:
>
> > > ...maybe not even their own clothing...
> >
> >With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
> >They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
> >make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
> >boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
> >radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
> >friendly skies.
>
> Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something 
> like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes 
> available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long 
> johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly 
> flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate 
> clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight 
> garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these 
> underpaid positions).
>
> Damien Broderick 
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour 
> <http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/> now.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   



From benboc at lineone.net  Sun Apr  6 11:02:08 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:02:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <47F8ADB0.9060209@lineone.net>

Damn, Gina, so sorry to hear this.

Best wishes, and I hope you are in that 20% group.

ben zaiboc


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 14:38:56 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 09:38:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Hplusroadmap] Fwd: [Synthetic Biology] Do it yourself
	biotech group in Boston
Message-ID: <200804060938.57439.kanzure@gmail.com>


----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: [Synthetic Biology] DIY Biotech in Boston
Date: Friday 04 April 2008
From: "Mackenzie Cowell" <macowell at gmail.com>
To: "Jason Morrison" <jason.p.morrison at gmail.com>, "Jason Kelly" 
<jasonk at mit.edu>, "Jason Jakob Lohmueller" 
<JLohmuel at fas.harvard.edu>, "Reshma Shetty" <rshetty at mit.edu>, "Austin 
Che" <austin at csail.mit.edu>, "Barry Canton" <bcanton at mit.edu>, "Meagan 
Lizarazo" <meaganl at mit.edu>, "John Cumbers" <johncumbers at gmail.com>, 
syntheticbiologyspace at googlegroups.com, "Drew Endy" 
<endy at mit.edu>, "Tom Knight" <tk at csail.mit.edu>, "Kim de Mora" 
<Kim.deMora at gmail.com>, discuss at syntheticbiology.org, "Jason Bobe" 
<jasonbobe at gmail.com>

Good afternoon friends,
Help kickstart a DIY Biotech interest group here in Boston!  Interested
garagistas, academics, entrepreneurs, and other Synthetic Biology
enthusiasts should join the mailing list (hosted by google groups) by
visiting http://www.diybio.org/.  The first meeting is slated for May 
1st.
 Hope you can make it!

Mac

p.s. feel free to forward this message to any interested parties

-- 
Mac Cowell
iGEM Coordinator
igem.org
231.313.9062

-------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 14:41:06 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 07:41:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <200804052231.m35MUoMv008700@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804052231.m35MUoMv008700@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804060741t3d439f12kf8d6a92d9b66689d@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
I honestly don't get it.  Disgraced former governor Spitzer pays thousands
for what appears (to me) to be a pretty ordinary hooker:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stkristen-pg,0,1566228.photogallery

Yet this brilliant Oxford scholar, jaw dropper, stunning babe as well as
monster brain, only gets hundreds?

I just don't get it.  A harlot with whom one could actually carry on
meaningful conversation (possibly even about mathematics!) and yet no
premium pricetag?  Someone do explain.
>>>

A big part of the discrepancy here is that this former Oxford scholar has
evidently horrific emotional/self-esteem problems that emerged in a way that
pushed her toward self-degradation and self-destruction.  She was not a
fairly "normal" attractive young woman trying to pay for college by
discreetly engaging in high-end prostitution "on the side."  This was an
extremely psychologically messed up girl who was driven to degrade herself.
Sadly, she is hardly alone in doing these sort of things (and though I don't
know the full details) and I tend to feel really sorry for her
former husband.  I bet she put him through hell.


John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 14:45:21 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 07:45:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405153130.0254e2a8@satx.rr.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer> <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405153130.0254e2a8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804060745n2d39c4f5sc61b22e9092f90b4@mail.gmail.com>

Spike stated:
>There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms
>including using water.

Damien replied:
I believe that's the method Spike uses, but there are also some good
lotions on the market.
>>>

There are just too many possibilities here for a response....

John  ; )
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 15:20:09 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:20:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:
The best solution is to stop being so gullible to the message of the
terror mongers.  The US administration would have us believe that we are
facing a very highly organized international terror cabal that would put
the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame.  We have been
led to believe there are terrorist cells replete with sleepers
everywhere.  We spent a LOT looking all over the Afghanistan mountains
for the purported highly sophisticated underground command and control
bunkers to coordinate it all.  The result?  We found squat.  Pretty much
all the supposed terrorist cells uncovered in the US have turned out to
be nothing or very very little.   *Yet what has been accomplished?
Besides the biggest bureaucratic boondoggle and super pork barrel in US
history, the DHS being created and a trillion or two poured out in Iraq
and Afghanistan to basically pound sand and in the case of Iraq make the
country and its people a lot worse off than they were, what else has
been accomplished?   The what else is that everyone is up in arms and
thinking in terms of terrorist behind every bush to this very day.
Perfectly rational wonderful people have had their thinking and
priorities all screwed up for years.   The administration has got away
with bold power grabs, out and out illegal activity and pretty much
wiping its collective ass with the Constitution.  We the people have
pretty much just gone along as we bleat "whatever it takes to keep us
s-a-a-f-e".   What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
travesty!
>>>*
**
Amen to that!  It really bothers me that conversations about this subject on
the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on planes.
Is losing much of our civil liberties as the Western world turns into a
massive high-tech police state amusing to Extro list members??  Or are the
people here hiding behind humor because they are afraid of big brother
monitoring them, should the conversation turn serious and insightful?

Samantha continues:
Please wake up.  It is no Muslims, or Al Qaeda (pitiful little group of
fanatics it really is) that you need to worry about.   *It is the end of
all freedom as you know or have known it.  It is living and being pushed
about constantly by fear.  It is sinking into a deep dark place where we
forget about a bright future along with our freedom and turn our not
inconsiderable intellects to every possible threat and search for,
Einstein help us, some "final solution".
*>>>

I think *up to a point* Al Qaeda (and their allies) is going to be a chronic
problem (but not a terminal disease, mind you) and the big question is
whether the United States and other nations can do the required balancing
act to effectively deal with them and yet not irreparably violate our
own Western values and the concepts/laws regarding civil liberties and the
rights of individual citizens.

I definitely believe a "bogeyman is going to get you/ let me protect you
(but never seriously question/defy me...) mentality" is being used by many
in power to slyly manipulate the general public and violate our own
principles and laws and get away with it.  We as citizens of our respective
nations must stand up for the bright future we aspire to, or else it may be
stolen from us (for our own good of course...).


John Grigg
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr  6 15:38:52 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:38:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060745n2d39c4f5sc61b22e9092f90b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
	Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:45 AM
	To: ExI chat list
	Subject: Re: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
	
	
	Spike stated:
	>There are different existing breeders with different cooling
mechanisms
	>including using water.
	 
	Damien replied:
	I believe that's the method Spike uses, but there are also some good
	lotions on the market.
	>>>
	 
	There are just too many possibilities here for a response....
	 
	John  ; )  


Thanks John, but I didn't write that about breeders.  I have intentionally
avoided posting anything about the topic ever since doing some calcs on
Keith's notion of using fairly common neutron sources to separate plutonium.
That was a shock to my system, because I still haven't figured out why that
wouldn't work.  Unless I was sleeping in one of my physics lectures, that
would work.  I never slept in those physics lectures, I loved those things.

That being said, I am now calculating the impact of bad guys with plutonium.
I am still convinced that detonating a nuke is technically difficult, but a
dirty bomb is simple.  So how much plutonium would it take to mess up a city
indefinitely?  The answers I keep getting are that the bad guys could
increase the background radiation sufficiently such that some people would
still choose to live there, and still be OK, many could live to old age
there.  But more health minded people would get scarce, which would include
pretty much anyone with money and actual ability.  What would that city look
like then?  If that happened to one city, would people stay around in the
others?  Where would they go?  Would we spread ourselves more evenly over
the land?

Such a dreary response to a good gag, ja.

spike


 




From aiguy at comcast.net  Sun Apr  6 15:36:23 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:36:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>

Keith and John were discussing:
At 10:34 AM 4/5/2008, John K Clark wrote:
(keith)

> > Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.
>
>At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity 
>than silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even 
>some indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic 
>conductors, that means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their 
>length; at least that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how 
>one 22000 miles long would behave except to say it would be better than any
metal.
>Maybe much much better.
>
> > how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables 
> > apart?
>
>Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry 
>a lot of current.
>
>Please put numbers on this statement.  I think you will be astounded.

My Response:

What about superconducting cables for the current?

We can't expect the same material to be strong enough for the main weight
bearing cable, but...

This would seem to solve the problem of current leakage.

This company Ultraconductors thinks they have the patented answer.

http://www.ultraconductors.com/patent_1.html

They claim to have the first ambient temperature superconductors based on
polymer materials.

http://www.ultraconductors.com/products.html

Lest anyone think this is crackpot technology and too good to be true "the
research was funded in part by the Department of Defense, which invested
$600,000 in the project. The technology also has been replicated elsewhere.
Matt Aldissi, who runs a Florida research firm called Fractal Systems,
reproduced Goldes' UltraConductor as part of work on conductivity he was
performing for the U.S. Air Force."

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=comments&op=showreply&tid
=7661&sid=2560&pid=7658&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

The question is how much current could a large diameter cable of this
material carry without losing it's super conductive properties.  If we
divided our total energy needs by the maximum capacity of a superconducting
cable would the magnetic fields of these cables destroy each other if they
were bundled side by side.

My biggest fear of such a technology is that it would be to easy to knock
totally out of operation in war time.  And would be devastating to any
economy depending on that energy source. Maybe by making such a system the
property of the world or a large group of developed nations it would prevent
any nation at war with one of the countries depending on that energy source
from making it a target and risking the wrath of the other nations.






From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Apr  6 15:38:58 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:38:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <20080406154107.SKKW10963.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 01:06 AM 4/6/2008, Gina wrote:

>A direct link to my post is here: 
><http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html>http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

Gina, I am concerned about your health and thank you for keeping us 
all informed.  You did the right thing.

My thoughts are with you and please know that I am always here for you,

Natasha
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr  6 16:05:00 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:05:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
	<2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406104840.023c7500@satx.rr.com>

At 08:20 AM 4/6/2008 -0700, John G. wrote:

>It really bothers me that conversations about this subject on the 
>Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on planes.

Just for the record, since I unintentionally introduced this turn of 
the discussion: I didn't suggest, or mean, that passengers would fly 
naked. What I wrote was:

"I wonder if it might be necessary to
strip search *everyone* boarding, and not allow *anything* to be
carried on board by passengers, maybe not even their own clothing."

I meant that literally, but assumed that some sort of robe would be 
provided for the sake of modesty. If extreme measures are required, 
this one seems vastly more sensible to me than the usual extrope 
recommendation that everyone on board pack a small cannon.

A. Blainey says: "It's still just a matter of time before wannabe 
martyrs start swallowing condoms full of C4." Presumably that kind of 
threat can be prevented by scanners.

I agree with Samantha that the whole Muslim-terrorist-under-the-bed 
panic is absurdly overstated and has been used for dubious purposes. 
Still, we do seem to be getting to the point where disgruntled kids 
or psychotics might find ways to do terrible and lethal damage to 
large systems we depend on. As I recall, John Brunner's grim novel 
THE SHEEP LOOK UP showed a world in which monkeywrenching of a pretty 
doable kind wrought havoc in large cities... and that was 1972, 
before everything was as interconnected and deteriorated as it is now.

Damien Broderick






From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 16:13:44 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 17:13:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Gary Miller wrote:
<snip>
>  My biggest fear of such a technology is that it would be to easy to knock
>  totally out of operation in war time.  And would be devastating to any
>  economy depending on that energy source. Maybe by making such a system the
>  property of the world or a large group of developed nations it would prevent
>  any nation at war with one of the countries depending on that energy source
>  from making it a target and risking the wrath of the other nations.
>


That is not the only danger. It becomes a single point of failure for
our civilization.
That is too big a risk.

It would be like building one huge nuclear power station for the whole
of the US. Too much centralisation is 'a bad thing'.  You would have
to shut the country down for weeks to repair a major fault.

Distributed energy sources is the failsafe way to go. Future buildings
covered with solar cells, etc. become self-sufficient, with power
stations used to supply factories and big energy consumers.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr  6 15:51:41 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:51:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
	Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
	
	
	Samantha Atkins wrote:
	>>...What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
	travesty!
	>>>
	 
	>Amen to that!  It really bothers me that conversations about this
subject on the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on
planes.  Is losing much of our civil liberties as the Western world turns
into a massive high-tech police state amusing to Extro list members??
...John Grigg


Sure but keep in mind, it isn't bad old governments that are taking our
civil liberties.  Consider dutch film maker Geert Wilders, maker of Fitna.  

Some Europeans are seriously suggesting that he face criminal charges for
*blasphemy*.  Of course they may have other names for it, inciting hatred,
racist something or other, but cut thru that.  There is not one comment in
his film that has anything to do with race.  It is blasphemy for which his
life and liberty are being threatened.  Who woulda seen that coming?  It
isn't governments doing this, it is religion, that is threatening loss of
civil liberties in Europe.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jUuzdfqfc

Wilders is being guarded 24/7 to prevent the fate of Van Gogh:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_11_15_04td.html

Europeans among us are invited to comment.

spike



	 
	    




From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 16:33:30 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 17:33:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 4:51 PM, spike wrote:
>  Sure but keep in mind, it isn't bad old governments that are taking our
>  civil liberties.  Consider dutch film maker Geert Wilders, maker of Fitna.
>
>  Some Europeans are seriously suggesting that he face criminal charges for
>  *blasphemy*.  Of course they may have other names for it, inciting hatred,
>  racist something or other, but cut thru that.  There is not one comment in
>  his film that has anything to do with race.  It is blasphemy for which his
>  life and liberty are being threatened.  Who woulda seen that coming?  It
>  isn't governments doing this, it is religion, that is threatening loss of
>  civil liberties in Europe.
>


Yea, it was on a BBC TV discussion program this morning.

His film accuses the Koran of inciting violence.
In response there are violent protests around the Muslim world, and
death threats to him.

Duh!!!

No signs of tolerance there.  It is all "Kill the infidels!".

BillK


From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 16:51:33 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:51:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <8CA661D9A8E8D6E-C68-6BA@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>

Gina, sorry to hear the bad news. Keep your chin up (unless that that makes you dizzy! LOL, got to keep your humour!) stay positive and thanks for sharing.
I imagine this will make you redouble your efforts.

take care of yourself
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 7:06
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl



So dear friends you have been used to me posting updates about my husband James B. Lewis PhD who has bit of historical presence in our community?with his "rational gamble" paper written in the Dora Kent case in regards to cryonics as well forming Nanocon early on and?his work with the Foresight Institute and nano book editing. As you know in 04 he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, and he had two stem cell transplants, he is doing great! Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com

we may both be using this blog now to keep you informed of both of our health. By the way in case you don't know, I made the Dermal display animation and have been gunning for nanotech for oh I guess a decade now through my Nanogirl News list, Nanotechnology industries portal and my animation work (which I am very much focusing on right now). Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters?and cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 

A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

?

Your friend, 

?

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/

Health blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute? http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."



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From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 16:57:17 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:57:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
	<2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA661E67714C0E-C68-6E7@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>

Nail on head. :o)
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:20
Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners



Samantha Atkins wrote:

The best solution is to stop being so gullible to the message of the
terror mongers. ?The US administration would have us believe that we are
facing a very highly organized international terror cabal that would put
the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame. ?We have been
led to believe there are terrorist cells replete with sleepers
everywhere. ?We spent a LOT looking all over the Afghanistan mountains
for the purported highly sophisticated underground command and control
bunkers to coordinate it all. ?The result? ?We found squat. ?Pretty much
all the supposed terrorist cells uncovered in the US have turned out to
be nothing or very very little. ? Yet what has been accomplished?
Besides the biggest bureaucratic boondoggle and super pork barrel in US
history, the DHS being created and a trillion or two poured out in Iraq
and Afghanistan to basically pound sand and in the case of Iraq make the
country and its people a lot worse off than they were, what else has
been accomplished? ? The what else is that everyone is up in arms and
thinking in terms of terrorist behind every bush to this very day.
Perfectly rational wonderful people have had their thinking and
priorities all screwed up for years. ? The administration has got away
with bold power grabs, out and out illegal activity and pretty much
wiping its collective ass with the Constitution. ?We the people have
pretty much just gone along as we bleat "whatever it takes to keep us
s-a-a-f-e". ? What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
travesty!
>>>

?

Amen to that!? It really bothers me that conversations about this subject on the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on planes.? Is losing much of our civil liberties as the?Western world turns into a massive high-tech?police state?amusing to Extro?list members??? Or are the people here hiding behind humor because they are afraid of big brother monitoring them, should the conversation turn serious and insightful??? 

?

Samantha continues:
Please wake up. ?It is no Muslims, or Al Qaeda (pitiful little group of
fanatics it really is) that you need to worry about. ? It is the end of
all freedom as you know or have known it. ?It is living and being pushed
about constantly by fear. ?It is sinking into a deep dark place where we
forget about a bright future along with our freedom and turn our not
inconsiderable intellects to every possible threat and search for,
Einstein help us, some "final solution".
>>>

?

I think *up to a point* Al Qaeda (and their?allies)?is going to be a chronic problem (but not a terminal disease, mind you) and the big question is whether the United States and other nations can do the required balancing act to effectively deal with them and yet not?irreparably violate our own?Western values and the?concepts/laws?regarding civil liberties and the rights of individual?citizens.???
?

I definitely believe a "bogeyman is going to get you/ let me?protect you (but never seriously?question/defy me...)?mentality" is being used by many in power to slyly manipulate the general public and violate our own principles and laws and get away with it.? We as?citizens of our respective nations?must stand up for the bright future we aspire?to, or else it may be stolen from us (for our own good of course...).? 

?

?

John Grigg

?

??? 



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http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 17:06:21 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:06:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406104840.023c7500@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>	<2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080406104840.023c7500@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA661FABAEFC0E-C68-729@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>

completely agree. 


Alex
wolf in sheeps clothing

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com




A. Blainey says: "It's still just a matter of time before wannabe 
martyrs start swallowing condoms full of C4." Presumably that kind of 
threat can be prevented by scanners.

I agree with Samantha that the whole Muslim-terrorist-under-the-bed 
panic is absurdly overstated and has been used for dubious purposes. 
Still, we do seem to be getting to the point where disgruntled kids 
or psychotics might find ways to do terrible and lethal damage to 
large systems we depend on. As I recall, John Brunner's grim novel 
THE SHEEP LOOK UP showed a world in which monkeywrenching of a pretty 
doable kind wrought havoc in large cities... and that was 1972, 
before everything was as interconnected and deteriorated as it is now.

Damien Broderick




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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 17:40:42 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:40:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <2d6187670804060745n2d39c4f5sc61b22e9092f90b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <1207503870_6859@S1.cableone.net>

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From pgptag at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 18:15:00 2008
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:15:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:06 AM, Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:

> Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's
> quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it
> here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is
> usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com

Life is a bitch. Or in Latin: life is a fucking bitch. I am so very sorry.

For what I know, MS is not life threatening (not more than other
chronic conditions), has a slow progress, can be kept under check, and
we must hope that more effective therapies are found soon.

Keep strong and write here more often!

Best, G.


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sun Apr  6 18:05:07 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:05:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
References: <536532.76241.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <03d601c89810$e3294310$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Lee said 
> 
> > True and False apply to assertions, or to maps.
> > Now you can have a true map, or literal model, of something
> > as opposed to false ones. For example, suppose we made a huge
> > scale model of the Mississippi valley, except that it contained
> > a single but very prominent glaring inaccuracy (say the Platte
> > river runs mainly south to north rather than west to east), and
> > then we all die.  An alien intelligence that makes its way to
> > Earth will, we may say, encounter this scale model, verify
> > its "truthfulness" except for that one tributary. So true and
> > false models do exist outside of human categories.
> 
> I have to point out that a map is only one kind of representation of
> the territory, and one that is produced for a specific purpose: an
> alien may well not recognise it as being representative, as she is
> focusing on completely different properties of the territory.

I want to claim that *objectively* existing relationships that
are sufficiently salient or "obvious" will be noticed by any
evolutionarily derived intelligence that has managed to survive,
because survival is impossible without an awareness of what
is objectively present in the environment. This *must* extend,
I claim, to an alien being able to locate and perceive large
scale objectively similar structures. 

> A cat for example does not understand the relationship
> between map symbolism and territory.

Heh, heh, and it's said that quite a few people don't either!  :-)
Which I appreciate.

> A Norwegian does not necessarily understand the relationship
> between English and the reality it supposedly depicts.

Oh, that's because the meaning of English is to a large extent
*conventional*, not isomorphic. The five letter term "zebra"
has only a conventional relationship to the stripped animal.
Isomorphic meaning, on the other hand, is objectively present
(or not) to some degree or other. Douglas Hofstadter, in
"Godel, Escher, Bach" has a particularly illuminating chapter
entitled "The Location of Meaning".

> The relationship between a symbolic system and the
> referent depend on understanding the syntax.

Well, yes, and unless I mistake your meaning, the
relationship also depends on a lot of assignments
by agreed upon convention, quite apart from questions
of grammar or syntax.

> In this example you are depending on the alien sharing the
> symbolic representation system that the human manufacturers
> use.

I don't think so.  If the model of the Mississippi Valley, for
example, is made of plaster, is more than a mile in size, and
the plaster has not yet had a chance to decompose, and it
is sufficiently detailed, then as a three dimensional structure
is really does have the *same* structure (only scaled down)
that the Mississippi Valley has. Once the isomorphism occurs
to an entity, it is exactly like the key to a cryptogram: from
then on, conjectures regarding the meaning of disparate parts
may be confirmed (and they will be). Entities who successfully
navigate through space to Earth will have the equipment to
detect such similarity;  the similarity is objective and non-
conventional (that is to say, it's of the isomorphism variety).

> A model, any model, necessarily exists within the category
> system (syntax) which it depends for its meaning.

As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.

> We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to
> admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be
> denied as valid by another.

Well, any given *convention* may be disputed.  If I say it's
absolutely dark outside, you may say that on the contrary it's 
absolutely as well-lit as any day could be, it's possible that
we are not using the terms the same. Perhaps "dark" means
something altogether different to you.

But I claim that we can speak objectively, once the referents
to the words are agreed upon. Suppose that two organisms
(speaking the same Indo-European language) pass all sorts
of tests showing that the terms "Hawaii" and "people" are
used equivalently (i.e. under all the same conditions) by the
two organisms (people). If they also---as evolutionarily
derived organisms must, I assert---evolve, develop, and
have a sense of time, then the meaning of "Some people
have been to Hawaii" is completely objective and completely
inarguable. We *really* do presume that any space alien, for
example, if they communicate among themselves at all, will
have a language in which it is possible to translate at least
gross features of reality. Once this is done, then they too may
join us in making commonly translatable statements about
objective reality (e.g. is Jupiter bigger than the sun?).

> > What about Jupiter?  Would you say that there is no Jupiter
> > out there? What would that mean? If you were struck by a
> > car as you walked across a street, you would not surely
> > correct a police officer who came by and asked, "were you
> > struck by a car", with something like "you mean, my-perception-
> > of-police-officer, that I experienced terrible force applied to
> > my-perception-of-my-body by a perception that I had of a
> > "car".
> 
> Well, Jupiter is a human concept.

How could any entity, again the space alien, possibly navigate to
Earth if it did not have the ability to distinguish Jupiter and other
astronomical bodies from the Earth?  You and I are clearly
*referring* to different things.  I am referring to that great
gas thing out there that is about 1000 times the mass of the Earth.
You are doing what?  Perhaps referring to what is going on in
human brains?  I would call that (and refer to it) as "our concept
of Jupiter", or "our map of Jupiter", or "the impression that Jupiter
makes on us".  In each case, note that *I* am referring to the
gas giant.

Something is a human concept, I would suggest, just in case it has
no referent independent of human beings.

> Separable objects are human concepts. Our concepts are what
> we experience. We don't experience reality "as it is" because
> whatever objective reality there is gets articulated in finite,
> differentiated objects before it hits our brains.

I agree that we cannot experience reality "as it is". Those things
that are out there get first two-dimensionally mapped onto our
retinas (in the nicest case to describe, that of vision), and from
there there are further mappings that take place in our nervous
system. But the boundary between a glass on the table and the
table itself is objectively real---it is *not* a human manufactured
distinction.  All sorts of phenomena, take a wind storm, for 
example, separate the glass from the table quite easily, much 
more easily than the molecules of the table are separated from
each other.  This is why it makes sense and is objectively
correct for our distinctions to be made between "glass" and
"table" because in this case our distinctions do correspond to
actual, objective differences that are "out there".

> I don't claim I'm an anti-realist (I consistently fail to align myself
> with any philosophical school, ever since my brief infatuation
> with Hegel ended). The realist-antirealist dichotomy is just as
> naive as either taken on their own.)

I understand.

> All I say is this: Jupiter exists in the human mind, it's a semantic
> articulation of a particular experience which we then use to
> filter other experiences into.

Do you consider it just a vast coincidence that---take a river
instead of Jupiter---so many other animals happen to also
have "the river" in their "minds"?  They act as though they
understand that a river is where to go to relieve thirst, or
flee predators, or a place to avoid because for many it's
dangerous. Likewise, aliens will *certainly* be able to 
distinguish a river (or Jupiter) from surrounding entities.
All of this is a coincidence, because humans "just happen"
to have a certain semantic articulation?

I really suspect that you believe that what the rest of us
refer to as "rivers" and "planets" really are out there. You
do, after all, manage to navigate to the same places as
the rest of us.

> We can't step outside the human mind and know what
> reality is like outside of subjectivity, or outside of the
> human conceptual structure,

That's right.  We can only *conjecture* about the actual
relationships between things out there. As Popper and
Hayek have explained, all knowledge is conjectural.

> BUT my statement was referring to the question of
> Napoleon (this is the problem when you break up a
> paragraph into its constituent lines...the context and
> therefore meaning is lost).

Sorry---it does make an unfair demand on the reader
to go back and read it all at once, which I do have
to force myself to do after I've interrupted your
stream of thought.

> And yes, I still think that whether Napoleon "is" the
> nutter before us now just because he believes he is,
> or forever ceased to exist hundreds of years ago,
> is ultimately unimportant...because whatever we give
> as an answer makes no difference to anything. We
> might as well debate whether yellow is lighter than
> pink for all the importance the answer we reach will have.

Yes, I suppose that if history isn't a particular passion of
yours, then you will be comfortable however the question
is settled about whether this modern day person "really is"
the same person and Napoleon I of France (1769-1821).

But there are things we could talk about that are *vitally*
important to you, as, say whether the light really was 
red or really was green when you drove through it. And
what used to be simply a difference of opinion (for what
anyone could prove, even if, as sensible realists, they
knew that either you were right or you were wrong), today
we can establish beyond almost all doubt the actual objective
reality of what color the light was when your car went through
the intersection.  Therefore such statements as "Your honor,
the light was green" can be evaluated as really true or really
false.

Lee



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr  6 18:40:16 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:40:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <03d601c89810$e3294310$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <536532.76241.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<03d601c89810$e3294310$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406133845.023d77a0@satx.rr.com>

At 11:05 AM 4/6/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:

>As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
>chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
>One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
>many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
>on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.

See also the nicely titled ONOMATOPOETICS by Joseph F. Graham, 
Cambridge University Press 1992.  



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 18:49:11 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:49:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804061149p2d7c4cf9u9045a8da68a6b93e@mail.gmail.com>

Gina Miller blogged:
I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, I've got people to love and I have a
lot of plans, big animation projects, stories that might turn there or into
books, nanotechnology applications to support, I've got a vision and I'm
going to meet it, I've got dreams and I'm going to keep on going. I've been
hard at work on these and I'm not going to stop. This I know. Jim and I will
conquer all this fragile biology and hopefully see the day that some
emerging technologies will make this a world that has a whole lot less
disease. And, with Jim by my side, well he is just the most selfless person,
he is genuine TLC. The BEST.
>>>

Wow.  Gina, you impress the hell out of me with your resilient attitude.
You are one tough-minded individual!  My very best wishes to you both.

Guilio wrote:
>>>Life is a bitch. Or in Latin: life is a fucking bitch. I am so very
sorry.

Well, Gina's an even tougher bitch/bastard and "life" is going to come out a
loser on this one!  : )  I'm betting on her and Jim making it.

Take care,

John (aspiring tough bitch/bastard)
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  6 19:21:49 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:21:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F922CD.1050802@mac.com>

spike wrote:
> That being said, I am now calculating the impact of bad guys with plutonium.
> I am still convinced that detonating a nuke is technically difficult, but a
> dirty bomb is simple.

Please see the following links.  Apparently dirty bombs while 
undoubtedly nasty and to be avoided are a bit overhyped..   The military 
explored them and decided they were pretty uninteresting.   They can 
make a real mess  though they aren't immediate or even delayed death to 
many thousands of people as they are sometimes presented. 

http://www.k-state.edu/media/WEB/News/NewsReleases/Donnertletter.html
http://www.freedomforfission.org.uk/saf/terrorism.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv27n3/v27n3-5.pdf
http://www.labor-spiez.ch/en/dok/hi/pdf/dirty_bomb_E_def.pdf
http://www.pubsector.net/ELetters/EGovernment/v3n13/December2005Articles.lsp#threat
>   So how much plutonium would it take to mess up a city
> indefinitely?  The answers I keep getting are that the bad guys could
> increase the background radiation sufficiently such that some people would
> still choose to live there, and still be OK, many could live to old age
> there.
Yep.

>   But more health minded people would get scarce, which would include
> pretty much anyone with money and actual ability. 
It depends greatly on exactly what was used.  Very few dirty bomb 
scenarious actually justify as much fear and hysteria as would doubtless 
occur.

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  6 19:27:58 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:27:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F9243E.9080408@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> 	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
> 	Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
> 	
> 	
> 	Samantha Atkins wrote:
> 	>>...What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
> 	travesty!
> 	>>>
> 	 
> 	>Amen to that!  It really bothers me that conversations about this
> subject on the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on
> planes.  Is losing much of our civil liberties as the Western world turns
> into a massive high-tech police state amusing to Extro list members??
> ...John Grigg
>
>
> Sure but keep in mind, it isn't bad old governments that are taking our
> civil liberties.  Consider dutch film maker Geert Wilders, maker of Fitna.
>   
> Some Europeans are seriously suggesting that he face criminal charges for
> *blasphemy*.  Of course they may have other names for it, inciting hatred,
> racist something or other, but cut thru that.  There is not one comment in
> his film that has anything to do with race.  It is blasphemy for which his
> life and liberty are being threatened.  Who woulda seen that coming?  It
> isn't governments doing this, it is religion, that is threatening loss of
> civil liberties in Europe.  
>   

True but that there are idiots among the population at large is far less 
of a concern to me.  It is governments that kill on massive scale and 
oppress huge populations.   Their attitudes and actions worry me a lot more.


- samantha


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 19:57:59 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 21:57:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <47F9243E.9080408@mac.com>
References: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<47F9243E.9080408@mac.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804061257p793aa876xf40003053205e47@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> True but that there are idiots among the population at large is far less
> of a concern to me.  It is governments that kill on massive scale and
> oppress huge populations.   Their attitudes and actions worry me a lot
> more.
>

Right. Unfortunately, only too often governments happen to be sensitive to
idiots' biases among the population... :-)

Stefano Vaj
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 20:10:40 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:10:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] root cause analysis- towards a functional semi-automated
	consumer-driven economically sustainable health system paradigm
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804061310v7817af91waac25f569173e57d@mail.gmail.com>

The dysfunctionality within health care is evidenced by the spiralling total
cost for public and private plans as well as private paid and the value of
services unrendered or unavailable for cost or regulatory reasons.

Using ABC (activity based costing) , we can document a "kazillion" instances
of cost of some billable item not showing benefits appropriate for the
device/service/drug/consult.

Conversely those with knowledge of healthcare economics can document how
using QALY (quality adjusted life year)  math can deem some relatively low
cost ABC billed items not to be cost effective enough to cover.

The root cause is perhaps twofold.

Ist is transparancy of costs.   In Canada we do not get access to a yearly
detailed
bill describing each item and its billed cost.  Secondly some items costing
may be not tied to a single ABC and no sidenote to describe the contributing
cost factors is made available.

2nd and I feel most important is the inability and unwillingness to allow
any citizen to have full access to any health related information so that
they can independantly decide what action they want.  The major players are
comfortable to work privately with regulators and screen information.
Doctors and other gatekeepers are not designed to be educators as they
must first manage the crisis cases and the routine tasks before anthing
else.
There are better ways to deliver health information than the traditional
providers.
The alternative medicine consultation system has good intentions but also
its own sales adjendas.
The logical delivery is the lay media.
Regulators have made it nearly illegal to provide really unlimited access to
fundamental science information.


Dumbed down lay media and approved advertising is perhaps the root cause of
the health care economic crisis.

I spend time anytime I want to search various university based journal ,
media and trade information sources.
The ordinary person either cannot or chooses not to do this.

As a health product manufacturer I would have a much easier time to find my
target market if they were more informed.

Governments might rather have dumb citizens who are managed, but I do not
believe they have a vision of how
an open information access system might revitalize the crisis-managment
portion so that it can deliver
those items less often to fewer customers.

In effect this automates a self-driven health management protocol.

So in reflection much as automation has made mass produced consumer goods
possible , and automation of communication is the basis of the global
communications net perhaps a new automation of diagnosis, consultation and
personally driven health management paradigm.

Morris Johnson
Box 10, Beaubier, Sk., S0C-0H0
Canada   306-447-4944  ;  701-240-9411



Message: 25
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 05:07:22 -0400
From: ablainey at aol.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] Health system, again
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Message-ID: <8CA65DCC17359C0-E2C-42DB at WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anywhere that there is an interface between two organisations which charge
each other for a service or product, there is wastage. This is true of any
commercial bodies such as in a private health system and Even in fully
publicly funded systems such as a national health service. In the case of
national services, this is usually done to bolster inadequate budgets, but
also because many people in the system get bonuses of some kind which they
try to maximise.
There is always someone skimming off the cream at these interfaces and it is
fully accepted.
For some reason we don't like the idea of paying for someone else's health
cover, Smokers being a prime example. But we have no problem paying for the
CEO's new yauht and a box full of Cuban cigars.
Cost cutting exercises, streamlining and?scrutiny of the system?generally
forces these costs down through the chain to the first interfaces, so a
tampon cost's $1200
Its a shame that such an expensive tampon can't be used to stop the
heamorage of money!

Alex




ginal Message-----
From: Kevin Freels kevinfreels at insightbb.com





Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is what has caused
the skyrocketing costs in the first place. People no longer saw nor cared
what they were being charged because someone else was paying the bill so the
market forces controlling costs were removed. It's the cost of BS we all
pay.

For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to the ER at 3 am
because she had a nosebleed that started at 9pm and hadn't stopped. We
waited 3 hours, then saw a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a
small tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for the ER
visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out of curiosity, I saw
that the Dr charge was $440 for the 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200!
Plus there was another $300 worth of supplies and such. I called and asked
the hospital about this obvious error and they said that yes, the bill was
correct, the "medical device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was
supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which would have been a $25
co-pay office visit ($120 in insurance), but just to spite the system, I
pulled the thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding was
obviously gone.

I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in such
short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or? allowing?
practicing nurses to? do more would be in order and help to drive some of
these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t working because the
market is not free.
?





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net,  arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr  6 19:56:28 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:56:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <778293.65662.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

John Grigg wrote:
>>>

>I can only imagine what will happen when Damien
>Broderick is made the Aussie Homeland Security
Czar...
>
>John  ;  )

I can imagine what will happen when you combine Aussie
attitudes with advanced security technologies. It will
come down to one of two things. (Please don't take
offence Damien, I'm sure you have no desire to run
Australia as a police state).

1. You go through a pleasant looking airport, with
friendly customer service offering free tea and
coffee. Pleasing signs try to reassure you flying is
safe, and Security Minister Broderick's picture is
shown with him making a big thumbs up gesture with the
tagline "No worries!"
 The free tea and coffee is a ruse to make you swallow
the nanotech that will scan you internally and assist
with the brain reading MRI scanner in the security
gates. You are violated in every way possible that
nanotech can manage, just so there is no possibility
of terrorism.

2. You go into a huge, scary looking airport where you
have to check in well in advance for all the security
procedures. You are warned that advanced AIs are
scanning your every move and monitoring your
behaviour. At any minute one of Minister Broderick's
black-clad minions may drag you off to be
strip-searched and have your DNA tested. You have been
warned of all the rights you must waive in order to go
through the security check.
 Should you feel the hand of the faceless trooper
dragging you out of the line, the following will
happen:
they take you into a side-room, the trooper takes his
mirror-faced helmet off and says "G'day! Fancy some
tea? Sorry about this, we've got a quota to meet. If
we don't drag off enough people, we will fail our
"intimidating the flying public" target. We just need
you to sit here for fifteen minutes, then leave and
loudly complain about the unpleasant tests you've had.
This gun?It's not loaded. No worries"
 The whole scheme is designed to intimidate the
terrorists from even trying, and "hugely expensive AI
behaviour scanners" is a front for Damien to secretly
channel goverment money into nanotech research.

Tom


      ___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference  

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  6 20:40:17 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:40:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:
> Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and
> cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
> A direct link to my post is here:
>
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

I am sorry to hear about your condition, Gina. It may cheer you up to
hear that science is making pretty good progress in understanding it.
It seems to be far more environmental than genetic although some
genetic backgrounds such as the eskimos are very resistant to it. The
biggest buzz in the medical journals lately is the link between MS
progression and vitamin D deficiency caused by living in high latitudes
and/or dietary insufficiency. Living in the Seattle area as you do, it
would probably benefit you to get some sunlight or UV B action going
on. If you can't relocate southward than maybe tanning booths are a
doable alternative. In any case summer is coming so try and soak up
whatever sun you can. I expect you to post bikini photos as proof that
you are following my advice. ;-) Also rituxamab (generic for Rituxan)
has been showing some preliminary promise as a treatment, but I'll
leave recommendations for drugs per se to your doctor.


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr  6 21:25:01 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:25:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <778293.65662.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<778293.65662.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406161927.0249bdf0@satx.rr.com>

At 08:56 PM 4/6/2008 +0100, Tom Nowell wrote:

>I can imagine what will happen when you combine Aussie
>attitudes with advanced security technologies.

Too roight, matey! Spot on! Laughed so much I hadda point Percy at 
the porcelain before I stained me daks. (Bit of exaggeration there, 
cobber, but she'll be sweet.)



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 21:33:00 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:33:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200804061633.00767.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Sunday 06 April 2008, The Avantguardian wrote:
> I am sorry to hear about your condition, Gina. It may cheer you up to
> hear that science is making pretty good progress in understanding it.
> It seems to be far more environmental than genetic although some
> genetic backgrounds such as the eskimos are very resistant to it. The
> biggest buzz in the medical journals lately is the link between MS
> progression and vitamin D deficiency caused by living in high
> latitudes and/or dietary insufficiency. Living in the Seattle area as
> you do, it would probably benefit you to get some sunlight or UV B
> action going on. If you can't relocate southward than maybe tanning
> booths are a doable alternative. In any case summer is coming so try
> and soak up whatever sun you can. I expect you to post bikini photos
> as proof that you are following my advice. ;-) Also rituxamab
> (generic for Rituxan) has been showing some preliminary promise as a
> treatment, but I'll leave recommendations for drugs per se to your
> doctor.

I looked around and it looks like 'old' (90s) treatments experimentally 
involved bone marrow transplants to reboot the immuen system. But the 
problem with this is that it killed the patients since it involved so 
many immunosuppressants. It may be beneficial to look into the latest 
research of blood rebooting and bone marrow transplant. The example I 
can cite off the top of my head is in sickle-cell disease, recently 
cured in a rat through these methods, without the need of 
immunosuppressants. Here's how: a cheek swab was taken from a mouse, 
DNA was extracted, the fix to the red blood cells were made (a very few 
genes), and then from there the researchers grew new bone marrow and 
injected it into the rat. From what I recall, everything was fine after 
that. So, if there's similar immune system problems implicated in 
multiple scelerosis, let's see what we can do. 

There's also a good amount of information on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapies_under_investigation_for_multiple_sclerosis

Most of them are chemical, which makes me wonder what these people are 
thinking. Blood transfusions and rebooting the immune system is a one 
time thing. Chemical treatments do not guarantee diffusion nor do they 
guarantee that there will not be some times in the day when the B or T 
cells get to start attacking. Any doctors around to comment?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 21:40:18 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:40:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical news from nanogirl...MFJ response
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804061440p1f2a19b2xec456b4b52b344cd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gina:

Sorry for the frank note that fallows...........

I am a bit prejudiced about MS as my wife Arla was diagnosed in 1987 and
died of it in 2004.
But before I freak you out Arla's progression is in the minority.
The vast majority are amongst  the walking wounded.
However we extropians pride ourselves as being able to solve those insoluble
problems, so we have a reputation to uphold, right?

So having opened the can of worms, let me set my reasoning down.

Over 10 years from 1994 to 2004 I spent 12,000 hours online researching  and
brought several MS drugs into play.
Arla had the 1000 mg solumedrol sessions of 3-5 day duration  about 4 times
a year from 1998 to -2003.
The first few years she would say "I have the good form or MS".  .. as
opposed to chronic progressive.
The relapsing remitting occurances left measureable effects over the years
and by 2002 became chronic progressive.
The last year things really got nasty when several seizures almost effected
her like strokes.

The really good science came too late for her.
Over the years I did determine several things however.
If it were to happen again the estriol ( a very weak estrogen), the vitamin
D (perhaps as mucvh as 5000 IU/day,
the non psychogenic cannabinoid CBD from hemp, would be among the first line
defences and would be used when there were no symptoms and not as a response
to accelerating disability.

We never did not use therapies such as methotrexate some others used.  In
spite of being toxic they seem to have kept some people from getting to the
end stages.

Aggressive use of cruciferous phase 2 inducers such as those from broccoli
sprouts and cress should have been  a daily dietary addition to reduce the
silent  oxidative stress underlying the more detrimental MS related
processes.

We never had the interferons available until the health plan determined it
was not pharmacoeconomically feasible to get them.

In hindsight that is what made me start LIFESPAN PHARMA in 2005.

So what I am suggesting is to plan carefully then  shoot first and ask
questions later....at least that is what I'd do if it were me.



Morris Johnson
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
.......extropian.pharmer          AT              gmail
DOT             com




-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net,  arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 22:00:37 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:00:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] root cause analysis- towards a functional semi-automated
	consumer-driven economically sustainable health system paradigm
In-Reply-To: <61c8738e0804061310v7817af91waac25f569173e57d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61c8738e0804061310v7817af91waac25f569173e57d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804061500p402a8c26vdf0d7072d8a4512d@mail.gmail.com>

I left off part of  the solution to root cause 2;

Universal access to the full university reseach databases for all taxpayers,
not just grads and alumni.
That hoard of baby boomers who will bankrupt medicare and die a slow ageing
unnecessarily are not as dumb or need proection from themselves as the
regulators would have it.

MFJ
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr  6 22:17:49 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:17:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...
> 
> ...His film accuses the Koran of inciting violence.
> In response there are violent protests around the Muslim 
> world, and death threats to him.
> 
> Duh!!!
> 
> No signs of tolerance there.  It is all "Kill the infidels!"
> 
> BillK

Oh NO!  The fidels are planning to make a *counter* film, called Beyond
Fitna, which points out that the BIBLE urges violence too!  Oh dreaded
blasphemy!  Woe is me, what shall we do?

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8701160258

Actually I haven't trusted that book since the Rev. Jeremiah Wright uttered
the comment:

"...God DAMN America!  That's in the bible!..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPR5jnjtLo

I consulted the online bible concordance for "God DAMN America" but no hits.
Then I entered just America, no hits.  God damn and goddamn, no hits and no
hits.  But if Rev. Wright says it's in there, I will take his word for it,
for he sounded so very sincere and scholarly, and his congregation is very
supportive (but note the lady in the choir just to his left.  {8^D  Her body
language seems to be saying "Did I really hear what I just heard?")  Perhaps
the concordance writers missed it somehow.

In any case, when Beyond Fitna is released, surely thousands of
christianists will riot in the streets, crying for blood (or at least
plasma) as a counterpart to this tiny minority:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,347014,00.html

What I see here is a cultural conflict at the most fundamental level.  In
the west we can legally say whatever we feel.  In the presbyterian world,
some words can get you killed; blasphemy is (STILL!) considered a capital
offense.  I don't know how this will be resolved in the internet age.  Any
guesses?

spike




  



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 22:57:21 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 15:57:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>

Gary Miller wrote:

 >Keith and John were discussing:
 >At 10:34 AM 4/5/2008, John K Clark wrote:
(keith)

 >> > Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.
 >
 >>At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity
 >than silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even
 >some indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic
 >conductors, that means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their
 >length; at least that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how
 >one 22000 miles long would behave except to say it would be better than any
metal.
 >Maybe much much better.
 >
 > > how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables
 > > apart?
 >
 >>>Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry
 >>a lot of current.
 >
 >>Please put numbers on this statement.  I think you will be astounded.

 >My Response:

(no numbers included)

A GW is 1,000,000,000 watts.  The highest 
voltages that work for DC transmission are less 
than a million volts.  So just to get down 1 GW 
by wires would mean 1000 amps, and we are talking 
thousands of GW.  Now ignoring all the other 
problems that (for example) burned out the 
shuttle tether experiment, just consider the force acting on the wires

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amp%C3%A8re%27s_force_law

"Thus, for two parallel wires carrying a current 
of 1 A, and spaced apart by 1 m in 
vacuum,<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amp%C3%A8re%27s_force_law#cite_note-4>[5] 
the force on each wire per unit length is exactly 2 ? 10-7 N/m."

It would be .2 N/m for 1000 amps, which is 200 
N/km, or about 7.14 million N going to GEO.  The 
force *does* go down as down as you separate the 
wires, but it also goes up by the *square* of the 
current.  What is going on is that a loop of wire 
carrying a current tends to open up to a hoop in space.

 From the URL you cited

"From an engineering perspective, Ultraconductors 
are a fundamentally new and enabling technology. 
They are lightweight, flexible, transparent, and 
possess magnetic, electric, and electronic 
properties of exceptionally high commercial value."

Does this raise any flags in your mind?  Hint, 
are there any other transparent conductors?  Is that even possible?

snip

 >My biggest fear of such a technology is that it would be to easy to knock
totally out of operation in war time.

Are you talking about using wires for transmission or power sats in general?

There would be thousands of them in GEO and 
thousands of rectennas on earth.  How are you 
proposing either one could be knocked out, and in 
particular how are they more vulnerable than coal or nuclear plants?

 >And would be devastating to any
economy depending on that energy source. Maybe by making such a system the
property of the world or a large group of developed nations it would prevent
any nation at war with one of the countries depending on that energy source
from making it a target and risking the wrath of the other nations.

One point of building these things is to avoid 
wars fought over dwindling resources.

Keith





From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 23:11:05 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:11:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207523561_7963@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:13 AM 4/6/2008, BillK wrote:

snip

>That is not the only danger. It becomes a single point of failure for
>our civilization.
>That is too big a risk.

How?  It's a serious question.  If you can make a solid case for the 
whole constellation of a thousand or more of them being wiped out in 
a single failure, then perhaps they are too much risk.  The 
consequences of not replacing carbon fuels is a really dire risk as 
well.  Consider that something like 3/4 of humans will die in the collapse.

>It would be like building one huge nuclear power station for the whole
>of the US. Too much centralisation is 'a bad thing'.  You would have
>to shut the country down for weeks to repair a major fault.
>
>Distributed energy sources is the failsafe way to go. Future buildings
>covered with solar cells, etc. become self-sufficient, with power
>stations used to supply factories and big energy consumers.

Work out the numbers for a typical apartment building in NYC.  Then 
tell us how much energy each person gets.  Re putting them on 
buildings, remember that the amount of sunlight you get on earth is a 
small part of what you can get out in space.  If you have a square 
mile of them, no matter how little they cost, where is the best place 
to put them?  If the cells are *free* you get the same answer.

NUMBERS people NUMBERS.  You are engaged in useless flapping without 
at least a rough engineering analysis of what you say.  Ask for help 
if you don't know how to do it, but please don't make statements of 
an engineering nature without doing the damned numbers.

Keith





From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  6 23:19:11 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:19:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <907709.13368.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Lee. Thanks for continuing this. 

>As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
>chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
>One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
>many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
>on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.

I think isomorphism makes some quite specific assumptions about perception. I'm pointing this out now, and I think what I mean will become clearer later. That said, I really must read some Hofstadter. Sounds like a dude.

>How could any entity, again the space alien, possibly navigate to
>Earth if it did not have the ability to distinguish Jupiter and other
>astronomical bodies from the Earth?  

Well - it was your idea to start comparing humans to this specific alien which had travelled specifically to earth. I might argue that the conditions on the discussion determine the outcome. My point would be that there is nothing in reality to force the particular understanding of reality that we have. 

>You and I are clearly
>*referring* to different things.  I am referring to that great
>gas thing out there that is about 1000 times the mass of the Earth.
>You are doing what?  Perhaps referring to what is going on in
>human brains?  I would call that (and refer to it) as "our concept
>of Jupiter", or "our map of Jupiter", or "the impression that Jupiter
>makes on us".  In each case, note that *I* am referring to the
>gas giant.

It's a trivial point, but even when you think you're referring 'out there', what you're looking at is still in your head.

>But the boundary between a glass on the table and the
>table itself is objectively real---it is *not* a human manufactured
>distinction.  All sorts of phenomena, take a wind storm, for 
>example, separate the glass from the table quite easily, much 
>more easily than the molecules of the table are separated from
>each other.  This is why it makes sense and is objectively
>correct for our distinctions to be made between "glass" and
>"table" because in this case our distinctions do correspond to
>actual, objective differences that are "out there".

But this is all based on our particular, peculiar, level of perception. Those entities we call glass and table are themselves constructed from many smaller entities. Their molecular structure is constantly shifting. We have one specific macroscopic perspective, which articulates the glass as a temporally persisting identity in distinction from the table. Another being may well have a different one which doesn't perceive the "glass" at all, but perceives the molecules perpetually shifting their relations, and only trivially forming any temporary macroscopic objects. Or it could perceive the macroscopic identity as being of a much higher level (the glass itself is trivial - it is the larger system of which the glass is an atomic component which is the real identity). Or it could experience time in a different way...or causation could appear very different to it, shattering notions of individuality whatsoever. Do you see the large point I'm making? I'm not
 talking about distinctions as shallow as realist vs antirealist, or a French word vs an English word, I'm saying that the nature of subjectivity is such that we cannot even know what other subjectivities look like. We have to question our very most basic assumptions, because they have all been evolved for specific reasons, to help us survive in a very particular environment. And, unless I'm mistaken we share this basic 'object' world view with the other sentient beings on this planet because we all share a lot of history and biology. It's not something as simple as culture or humanity which has shaped this understanding of the world...our very beings are based on understanding the world in this way, of presenting a finite comprehensible picture which is generally coherent, so that we can actually make a fair stab at acting and surviving in the world. But what we think is like a child's drawing. Our perceptions aren't a photograph, they're a surrealist
 sketch.


>Yes, I suppose that if history isn't a particular passion of
>yours, then you will be comfortable however the question
>is settled about whether this modern day person "really is"
>the same person and Napoleon I of France (1769-1821).

I thought of a better example than the yellow-pink one after sending the last email. We can choose whether to measure something in Metres or in Feet. The rule we use makes no difference to the reality, which is what it is regardless of which set of numbers we give it. This is like attempting to measure what constitutes the self, any particular self. It's not that I am unconcerned about whether Napoleon still exists in another body, or still exists at all. It's that the idea of there being a single consistent person, a self, called Napoleon is a human conceit. There is no single thing which correlates to this word, just like there is no single thing which correlates to the word 'love'. Selfhood is a convention. Just because it seems very specific (if slippery) to us, doesn't mean there is any objective quality which is referred to by it, or even any objective quality referrable by it. This is even more clearly the case than my last paragraph I think - the
 evolutionary need for us to believe in a consistent identity, to group all these different perceptions, thoughts, sensations, actions, relationships, bodily parts etc into a single cohesive entity far outweighs the idea that actually we are a collective of vastly different co-operating processes, a macroscopic entity made up of many networked independent cells which work together for some reason of which we are not aware...the 'ego', the thinking mind, sits on the organism like a crown and believes itself the ruler but in fact it is only the most focussed of many elements, almost all of which it is unaware of.

>But there are things we could talk about that are *vitally*
>important to you, as, say whether the light really was 
>red or really was green when you drove through it. And
>what used to be simply a difference of opinion (for what
>anyone could prove, even if, as sensible realists, they
>knew that either you were right or you were wrong), today
>we can establish beyond almost all doubt the actual objective
>reality of what color the light was when your car went through
>the intersection.  Therefore such statements as "Your honor,
>the light was green" can be evaluated as really true or really
>false.

I refer you to this (all too brief) passage: 								
	<!--
		@page { margin: 2cm }
		P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm }
	-->
	http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_16.html#boroditsky


and also to this article from New Scientist (which I don't think you can read without a subscription): http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg19726373.300-is-there-a-language-problem-with-quantum-physics.html

basically what it says is that, just as the quantum world can't be understood in classical terms such as assigning a specific 'position' or 'speed' to a particle, so we have to be very careful when applying any of our implicit notions to the world. Our language "contains deep assumptions about space, time and causality - assumptions that do not apply to the quantum world" - in fact, apply only to the particular interpretation of reality that our senses have come to provide us with. 

"When we say "the cat chases the mouse" we are dealing with well-definedobjects (nouns), which are connected via verbs. Likewise, classicalphysics deals with objects that are well located in space and time,which interact via forces and fields. But if the world doesn't work theway our language does, advances are inevitably hindered." To which I have to ask, where is the 'well-defined cat'? It exists only in our minds and our language. I'm not saying there is no material cat. I'm saying that the reality isn't as neat and tidy (either spatially, temporally, causally or intentionally) as we like to think. And this is true of every 'object' we can talk about. Just because we have a clear-cut word which is definable in separation from everything else, doesn't mean that carries over into reality. Or into other beings' perception of reality. Ultimately it says more about us and our priorities than it does about the world 'out there'.

Oh, and one last point about our hypothetical alien - in order to communicate effectively with it, of course it must share our world schema to some degree. Such is always the case. We must start from the same basic perspective in order to be able to exchange symbols meaningfully.

Mike

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      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 05:28:16 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:58:16 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Gene for Ruthlessness?
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080404/full/news.2008.738.html

It's a bit of a beatup. Still food for thought. We'd expect to see a
genetic indicator of "defector" behaviour in the general population,
maybe this is part of it?

What percentage of defectors do we expect to see in the general
population, anyway?

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 09:06:13 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 19:06:13 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>

On 07/04/2008, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  Actually I haven't trusted that book since the Rev. Jeremiah Wright uttered
>  the comment:
>
>  "...God DAMN America!  That's in the bible!..."
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPR5jnjtLo
>
>  I consulted the online bible concordance for "God DAMN America" but no hits.
>  Then I entered just America, no hits.  God damn and goddamn, no hits and no
>  hits.  But if Rev. Wright says it's in there, I will take his word for it,
>  for he sounded so very sincere and scholarly, and his congregation is very
>  supportive (but note the lady in the choir just to his left.  {8^D  Her body
>  language seems to be saying "Did I really hear what I just heard?")  Perhaps
>  the concordance writers missed it somehow.

It's not in the Bible, but the Reverend in his diatribe is taking the
popular view that the Bible condemns all acts which the average human
being would call "evil". This isn't actually true: as a literary
character, the Biblical God is by civilised human standards at least
as evil as any other fictional villain.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From aiguy at comcast.net  Mon Apr  7 13:56:57 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:56:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com><200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>


This article was surprisingly downbeat because the vaccine did not repair
the preexisting damage done by the disease.

But if the vaccine was given to the population at adulthood and stopped the
disease from forming in the first place it would prevent any damage from
occurring.

Assuming there are not a lot of people in the general population harmed by
allergic reactions to the vaccine or other unforeseen side effects, I would
see this as the greatest medical breakthrough of this century!

And just in time to prevent an horde of senile baby boomers large enough to
finish bankrupting this once great nation!

Where do I line up?  Let the human trials begin!

This is one vaccine that the FDA should definitely streamline the testing
process for.  Maybe not for the general population but at least for people
at the age group where serious plaque buildup begins and who are genetically
at high risk due to a family history of the disease.  I think anyone who has
gone through watching a parent or grandparent deteriorate and die from this
disease should be allowed to take the risk on the vaccine to protect
themselves!

 
http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1755



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Apr  7 15:37:55 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:37:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>


In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and 
analytical criticism of transhumanism?

Many thanks,
Natasha




From jonkc at att.net  Mon Apr  7 16:29:33 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:29:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> It [the magnetic force between wires] would
> be .2 N/m for 1000 amps

Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't understand your point. 
One Newton is the force of earth's gravity on an object with a mass
of 102 g, so we're talking about a force of 20 grams per meter.
A meter long toothpick wade of WOOD inserted ever meter to act as
a spacer to keep the wires the proper distance apart would be far 
stronger than necessary.

> about 7.14 million N going to GEO.

That's tiny!

  John K Clark







From moses2k at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 17:40:38 2008
From: moses2k at gmail.com (Chris Petersen)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:40:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Chimerical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <3aff9e290804071040j79fa73b4wcb04db368e79bc11@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

>
> In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>

'H' is the well-established symbol for Hydrogen, and 'H+' is already used to
denote a positively charged hydrogen ion, rendering the whole 'H' and 'H+'
terminology acerbic and periodically confusing to laypersons and chemists
alike (you need the latter for research of MNT, you know).

-Chris

P.S. This joke comes with no warranty expressed or implied, you handsome
devils (it's unwarranted).
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Apr  7 18:27:16 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:27:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:29 AM 4/7/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
> > It [the magnetic force between wires] would
> > be .2 N/m for 1000 amps
>
>Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't understand your point.

You did.  This was for a highly optimistic voltage and *one* GW.  The 
force I noted goes up as the square of the current.  Plug in 1000 GW 
which is the production of about 3 years of power sats and try 
again.  You can also reduce the voltage to a more reasonable number.

There is an additional problem.  If a space elevator/tether is cut it 
falls along the equator.  Not a hazard on the ground since the 
terminal velocity of the cables is no higher than rope of a similar 
low density.  But it's a major problem in space because it whacks at 
high speed into other elevators/tethers if there are any.  Bringing 
down hundreds of power leads from GEO is just inviting a catastrophe.

Still another problem, high vacuum and air good insulators, but low 
pressure gas is not, and these wires transit a lot of low pressure 
gas.  Any ideas for really lightweight solution?  If you *really* 
have something against microwaves, bringing power down 
mechanically  like the elevator sends it up might be the best solution.

>One Newton is the force of earth's gravity on an object with a mass
>of 102 g, so we're talking about a force of 20 grams per meter.
>A meter long toothpick wade of WOOD inserted ever meter to act as
>a spacer to keep the wires the proper distance apart would be far
>stronger than necessary.

You also missed that the force is in tension.  Shut off the power and 
the wires are going to move toward each other.  Unless you do have 
close spacers that also work in compression to keep them apart, the 
conductors are going to hit and stick in the vacuum.  Be an 
interesting task to bring them back into service.

> > about 7.14 million N going to GEO.
>
>That's tiny!

It's 1/5 the lift off thrust of a Saturn 5, and it's applied in a way 
which is massively multiplied into tension on the conductors.

Keith




From jonkc at att.net  Mon Apr  7 20:57:05 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:57:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> Shut off the power and the wires are going to move
> toward each other. Unless you do have close spacers
> that also work in compression to keep them apart

As I said one wooden toothpick every meter would work just fine, ever
hundred meters probably but I was trying to be conservative.

>high vacuum and air good insulators, but low
>pressure gas is not, and these wires transit a
>lot of low pressure gas.  Any ideas for really
>lightweight solution?

Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred miles of its 22000
mile length.

Me:
>>That's [7.14 million Newtons] tiny!

You:
> It's 1/5 the lift off thrust of a Saturn 5

For heavens sake! Every day designers who got a C in engineering school
design dull drab apartment buildings that tame forces much greater than
7.14 million Newtons. And this is supposed to be a show stopper for a
boiling water IQ civil engineer with Nanotechnology at his command?
I don't think so.

> If a space elevator/tether is cut it falls along the equator. Not a
> hazard on the ground since the terminal velocity of the cables is no
> higher than rope of a similar low density.  But it's a major problem in
> space because it whacks at high speed into other elevators/tethers if
> there are any.  Bringing down hundreds of power leads from GEO
> is just inviting a catastrophe.

On the other hand the above could very well be a show stopper, but that's
true of all space elevators not just the ones that have power lines in them.

> If you *really* have something against microwaves

I have nothing against microwaves, nothing except that the beam you're
talking about would be several billion times as powerful as any made
before and when you try to make something even ten times as large as
ever existed before in just one jump something almost always goes wrong,
and except that it would take many thousands of square miles to receive
the power, and except for the fact that nobody has a clue how such a
beam would effect the environment, and except for the fact that
environmentalists would tie you up in court for CENTURIES, except for that
I have nothing against microwaves.

Having said all this I must admit that Power Satellites may nevertheless
have a future, it's just that I think the power they produce could best
be consumed in space, perhaps in something like Gerald O'Neal's space
colonies.

Most people on this list would be delighted if the human race expanded
into space, but individuals will never be willing to make that move unless
they thought it would bring them a better life. I can't see how a Mars or
Moon colony could do that, anything Mars or the Moon can provide the
Earth can do better. However an type O'Neal space colony might offer
something Earth cannot, cheap energy. It is not at all obvious that the
surface of a planet is the best place for a rapidly evolving technological
civilization.

  John K Clark









From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Mon Apr  7 21:29:25 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:29:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <47F8ADB0.9060209@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F8ADB0.9060209@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <908B5E2CEB234024BF1F1620A391F4A1@GinaSony>

Thank you Ben, I do too : ) Yesterday I had the third infusion and didn't feel like writing but today I do, so that's good. I think the drug is worn off a bit since yesterday (it had a rather sluggish effect on me). It hasn't quite cleared up the visuals that it's supposed to resolve but it's supposed to soon - within a week . I really appreciate all the support my fellow extropes provide to me, it means a lot especially considering that we have the same vision for the future, one that holds many a cures....


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://www.nanogirl.com

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ben 
  To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 4:02 AM
  Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  Damn, Gina, so sorry to hear this.

  Best wishes, and I hope you are in that 20% group.

  ben zaiboc
  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Mon Apr  7 21:32:21 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:32:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <20080406154107.SKKW10963.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<20080406154107.SKKW10963.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <79320581F784400699B93EE3EF5169FA@GinaSony>

Thank you Natasha - you are always a dear friend. I am glad to have this forum available to me. It is a comfort. Kind regards, 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Natasha Vita-More 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  At 01:06 AM 4/6/2008, Gina wrote:


    A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html 

  Gina, I am concerned about your health and thank you for keeping us all informed.  You did the right thing.  

  My thoughts are with you and please know that I am always here for you,

  Natasha



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Apr  7 22:16:18 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:16:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>

At 01:57 PM 4/7/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
> > Shut off the power and the wires are going to move
> > toward each other. Unless you do have close spacers
> > that also work in compression to keep them apart
>
>As I said one wooden toothpick every meter would work just fine, ever
>hundred meters probably but I was trying to be conservative.
>
> >high vacuum and air good insulators, but low
> >pressure gas is not, and these wires transit a
> >lot of low pressure gas.  Any ideas for really
> >lightweight solution?
>
>Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred miles of its 22000
>mile length.

That's not a lightweight solution, plus the fact that atomic oxygen 
will eat the rubber.

>Me:
> >>That's [7.14 million Newtons] tiny!
>
>You:
> > It's 1/5 the lift off thrust of a Saturn 5
>
>For heavens sake! Every day designers who got a C in engineering school
>design dull drab apartment buildings that tame forces much greater than
>7.14 million Newtons. And this is supposed to be a show stopper for a
>boiling water IQ civil engineer with Nanotechnology at his command?
>I don't think so.

It's more like a million times that high at 1000 GW.

> > If a space elevator/tether is cut it falls along the equator. Not a
> > hazard on the ground since the terminal velocity of the cables is no
> > higher than rope of a similar low density.  But it's a major problem in
> > space because it whacks at high speed into other elevators/tethers if
> > there are any.  Bringing down hundreds of power leads from GEO
> > is just inviting a catastrophe.
>
>On the other hand the above could very well be a show stopper, but that's
>true of all space elevators not just the ones that have power lines in them.

You can build power sats from one elevator.

> > If you *really* have something against microwaves
>
>I have nothing against microwaves, nothing except that the beam you're
>talking about would be several billion times as powerful as any made
>before and when you try to make something even ten times as large as
>ever existed before in just one jump something almost always goes wrong,
>and except that it would take many thousands of square miles to receive
>the power, and except for the fact that nobody has a clue how such a
>beam would effect the environment, and except for the fact that
>environmentalists would tie you up in court for CENTURIES, except for that
>I have nothing against microwaves.
>
>Having said all this I must admit that Power Satellites may nevertheless
>have a future, it's just that I think the power they produce could best
>be consumed in space, perhaps in something like Gerald O'Neal's space
>colonies.
>
>Most people on this list would be delighted if the human race expanded
>into space, but individuals will never be willing to make that move unless
>they thought it would bring them a better life. I can't see how a Mars or
>Moon colony could do that, anything Mars or the Moon can provide the
>Earth can do better. However an type O'Neal space colony might offer
>something Earth cannot, cheap energy. It is not at all obvious that the
>surface of a planet is the best place for a rapidly evolving technological
>civilization.

Do you remember who I am?  There was a reason space colonies were not 
built, that reason is still operative today.

Building power sats from the ground is a possible step into space 
where space industry/colonies are not.

Keith Henson
Founder, L5 Society 



From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr  8 05:48:40 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:48:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society  ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>

Me:
>>Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred
>> miles of its 22000 mile length.

hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> That's not a lightweight solution

Who cares, nanotubes are strong and you only have to do it for a short
distance.

> plus the fact that atomic oxygen will eat the rubber.

Well regardless of that observation I tend to think that criticism doesn't
forever destroy the possibility of space elevators ever carrying power and
rendering the concept physically imposable, as mythical as perpetual motion.

> Building power sats from the ground is a possible step into space where
> space industry/colonies are not.

I don't quite know what you mean by that.

> Do you remember who I am?

Yes I do, you're the fellow who started the L5 society and from that I can
only conclude you are a better man than me. I mean that Keith, I hope you
don't think my arguing with you over this small point as any sign of
disrespect.

  John K Clark








From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  8 08:45:08 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:45:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com><200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com><f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
	<015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

It's been very, very hard not replying to some of the emails
I've been reading tonight concerning the practice of medicine
and attendant woes, but finally my resistance is overcome.

Gary writes

> This article was surprisingly downbeat because the vaccine did not repair
> the preexisting damage done by the disease.
> 
> But if the vaccine was given to the population at adulthood and stopped the
> disease from forming in the first place it would prevent any damage from
> occurring...
> 
> 
> Where do I line up?  Let the human trials begin!
> 
> This is one vaccine that the FDA should definitely streamline the testing
> process for.

Isn't it too bad that we have the "one size fits all" mentality in 
western nations?  It is assumed that people are so uniform
that the "goodness" or "badness" of a drug can be determined
by "very smart people high up", and all us dumb recipients can
be told by them what is and what is not in our own best interest.

Ignore the fact that some people are more desperate than others.
Ignore the fact that some people suffer more psychologically
   than others in waiting rooms (e.g. how much would Gina and
   her husband have been willing to pay for someone who might
   have known something to have saved them that particular
   ordeal that night?)
Ignore the fact that some people are more willing to take risks
   than other people.
And most of all, ignore the fact that people's value systems  are
   not all identical.

That is what is happening. And there is only one system that 
anyone has ever heard of that can attempt to deal with this
kind of complexity. (It happens, not coincidentally, to be a
derivative of "freedom", "freedom" in the sense of being able
to take action without some bureaucrat or other superior
interfering.)  But dare I mention the mechanism by which
desires could be translated in infinite variety into preferences?

No, I dare not, lest we have another unending thread concerning
the superiority of government run solutions.

Lee

> Maybe not for the general population but at least for people
> at the age group where serious plaque buildup begins and who are genetically
> at high risk due to a family history of the disease.  I think anyone who has
> gone through watching a parent or grandparent deteriorate and die from this
> disease should be allowed to take the risk on the vaccine to protect
> themselves!
> 
> 
> http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1755



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 08:59:57 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:59:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

>
> In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>

Mmhhh. In the sense of most extensive or complete? What about *The Biotech
Century*<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000CDG8LA/qid=1135473833/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0708899-0276623?v=glance&s=books>?
Of course, philosophically speaking there are plenty of deeper or more
interesting works, but Rifkin's book is really full of data, historical
details, analyses, etc.

Stefano Vaj
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 09:59:11 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 02:59:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "antiaging4geeks" website
Message-ID: <2d6187670804080259q142c2e4cta3479e4483a7175@mail.gmail.com>

This is a rather different anti-aging website.  I just wondered what list
members would make of it.

"antiaging4geeks"

http://approaching40.typepad.com/

John  : )
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 13:35:22 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:35:22 +1000
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
	<015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804080635h23484eabv955899364121db8e@mail.gmail.com>

On 08/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  That is what is happening. And there is only one system that
>  anyone has ever heard of that can attempt to deal with this
>  kind of complexity. (It happens, not coincidentally, to be a
>  derivative of "freedom", "freedom" in the sense of being able
>  to take action without some bureaucrat or other superior
>  interfering.)  But dare I mention the mechanism by which
>  desires could be translated in infinite variety into preferences?
>
>  No, I dare not, lest we have another unending thread concerning
>  the superiority of government run solutions.

Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of the
scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal profit
(it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but the
approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play when
someone catches wind of a marketable product.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Apr  8 14:10:20 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:10:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 03:59 AM 4/8/2008, Stefano wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>
> > In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> > analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>
>Mmhhh. In the sense of most extensive or complete? What about 
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000CDG8LA/qid=1135473833/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0708899-0276623?v=glance&s=books>The 
>Biotech Century? Of course, philosophically speaking there are 
>plenty of deeper or more interesting works, but Rifkin's book is 
>really full of data, historical details, analyses, etc.

I don't think Rifkin mentions transhumanism in his book (does 
he?)    It is necessary that the criticism is of transhumanism, not 
just biotech, nanotech or genetic engineering.  For example Erik 
Davis in his book Techgnosis is journalistic and full of hype.  He 
comments on H+, and especially Extropy, were critical but his 
observations and comments are full of assumptions rather than a 
critical examination of H+.

Thanks Stefano,
Natasha
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 14:22:51 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:22:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
	<015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804080722x7d339a20q514fe35b586aca42@mail.gmail.com>

Before we go into the usual "let's have more government to save our
children" exchange, let me repost something I wrote for Perry Metzger's
list:

The amyloid hypothesis is baloney. It all started with Dennis Selkoe almost
20 years ago, and was at the time somewhat reasonable. But then there were
studies decisively excluding the APP gene as a cause of sporadic AD, based
on lack of linkage. This should have prompted a rethinking already but
somehow the idea became a reigning paradigm.... Then there was the
observation that soluble amyloid levels in AD are almost the same as in
normal aging, and both are between 10 and 1000 times less than the amounts
of amyloid needed to cause cellular dysfunction in vitro. Then there was the
observation that lots of apparently healthy elderly have very high amyloid
plaque loads, while some apparent AD cases have little. Then the finding
that media conditioned by AD cells can cause cell death, even *after* being
depleted of amyloid by immunoprecipitation. Of course by now the hypothesis
should have long been discarded but the amyloid people kept soldiering on.
Then the finding that mitochondrial dysfunction and tau abnormalities
precede formation of amyloid plaques in patients. Then the lack of
appreciable clinical improvement in patients after removal of amyloid by a
vaccine (in fact, a bunch of patients came down with an encephalitis). Isn't
this really, I mean, really enough to decisively reject the amyloid
hypothesis? Apparently not, it's still the reigning paradigm, with only a
few people like Russell Swerdlow, George Perry, Hemachandra Reddy, Mark
Smith, Davis Parker, and yours truly challenging it in print (not that I am
in the same league as these illustrious researchers).

 Of course, the popular press goes to Selkoe or Goodman or Hardy to get
their news, so reading non-specialist articles you will find that all is
fine in AD-land and a cure might be just around the corner....but my advice
is to stay away from Elan stock.

--------------------

Now, I am of course not in the least surprised that the news on the vaccine
front are bad. What really gets me is the persistence of these people. Dr
Head is quoted as saying ""Vaccines such as this one are a good first step
for effective Alzheimer's treatment, but complimentary treatments must be
developed to address the complexity of the disease." Jesus H Christ! This
thing *does not work*! What kind of a "good first step" is it if it does not
work, and "complementary treatments" (read: addressing the real problem
instead of bungling around with amyloid) are needed?!

What we need is not an FDA streamlined protocol to have more humans
vaccinated (and get encephalitis) but a wholesale, decisive rejection of the
amyloid hypothesis, and concentrating on the energy metabolism derangements
in AD.

Rafal

Disclosure: I have been actively involved in mitochondrial research,
including research on PD, and AD, for a few years now. I personally know
many of the mitochondriacs working on AD, and I would stand to gain in many
ways from the downfall of the amyloid people and the ascendancy of my faith.
The only path to truth is to read and understand a lot of primary research
articles, ask a lot of questions, and never pay much attention to press
releases and email posts.
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 14:46:18 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:46:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
> the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
> bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
> funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of the
> scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal profit
> (it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but the
> approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play when
> someone catches wind of a marketable product.
>

### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from private
money? I used to think that due to the difficulty in owning basic research
results there would be underproduction of such results in the absence of
coerced funding but now I no longer believe it. Many rich people seek the
approval of their peers too, which is why the Gates foundation is
outspending the NIH on many of the most pressing health needs in the world.
Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Hughes and dozens of lesser captains of
industry gave more to science than most governments. If there were no taxing
parasites feeding on capitalists, there would be so much money sloshing
around and looking for a good cause that even FAI researchers would be
swimming in it.

BTW, if we are talking about government funding of research, let's see what
it gave us: The atomic bomb. Thermonuclear bomb. Weaponized anthrax. Napalm.
V-gas. Tuskegee syphilis study. The International Space Station. The list is
long but easy to summarize: Most government research spending goes towards
destruction (weapons), or propaganda (ISS). Useful, peaceful basic research
is an afterthought, comprising less than one percent of all spending. You
can't reasonably speak about the great achievements of government research
without devoting appropriate attention to the monumental failings.

Rafal
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 14:52:53 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 07:52:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> analytical criticism of transhumanism?

I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon Young,
could be considered a fairly in-depth critical analysis/apologetics study of
Transhumanism.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1591022908/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591022908/ref=reg_hu-wl_mrai-recs


John Grigg
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:02:30 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:02:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080802x2250a7aep6772a7616e1a3eb5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

> I don't think Rifkin mentions transhumanism in his book (does he?)    It
> is necessary that the criticism is of transhumanism, not just biotech,
> nanotech or genetic engineering.
>

Ah, OK, you mean critical comments on the transhumanist movement as such.
Let me think... *Rapture: How Biotech Became the New Religion. A Raucous
Tour of Cloning, Transhumanism, and the New Era of
Immortality<http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-How-Biotech-Became-Religion/dp/0738207616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207666855&sr=1-1>
*? But it is not *too* critical...

Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:14:02 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:14:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080814j466ce9e2sd6a2b57d62ce7084@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from
> private money? I used to think that due to the difficulty in owning basic
> research results there would be underproduction of such results in the
> absence of coerced funding but now I no longer believe it. Many rich people
> seek the approval of their peers too, which is why the Gates foundation is
> outspending the NIH on many of the most pressing health needs in the world.
> Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Hughes and dozens of lesser captains of
> industry gave more to science than most governments.
>

Why, one way to see it, rather than public vs private is non-profit in the
broadest sense vs. for-(immediate, monetary) profit.

The latter qualification is important since it could be argued that even
governmental expect "returns on their investments", so that investment in
military research are normally related to their wishes to protect or to
expand their power, markets, economies, and so forth.

Non-profit, on the other hand, also include efforts which are repayed by
status, reputation and goodwill (see Mr. Gates expenditures) or that take
place on a reciprocity, rather than consideration, basis (see the Open
Source movement).

Stefano Vaj
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:28:16 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:28:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene for Ruthlessness?
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804080828o2c8422b7j6e0a4f4add47b1c9@mail.gmail.com>

Emlyn wrote:
It's a bit of a beatup. Still food for thought. We'd expect to see a
genetic indicator of "defector" behaviour in the general population,
maybe this is part of it?

What percentage of defectors do we expect to see in the general
population, anyway?
>>>

Going along with your line of thought, I tend to get a bad case of the
willies when I consider this book...

"The Sociopath Next Door"

http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/076791581X


John Grigg
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:55:32 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:55:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene for Ruthlessness?
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804080828o2c8422b7j6e0a4f4add47b1c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804080828o2c8422b7j6e0a4f4add47b1c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804080855q4d11b742o9463d0a4e1bd0235@mail.gmail.com>

The Nature article seems a long jump from experiment to assumptions
about dictators through history, but I can speak from experience that
an unnaturally large percentage of sociopaths live in Los Angeles, New
York and Washington D.C.

And they reproduce.

I'm looking forward to the mail-in test for the AVPR1a gene.  Romantic
partners can secretly grab samples to double check potential mates.  A
short gene could be a deal breaker -- or a deal maker! -- in business.
 We can swab every politician.  Oh joyous day!  ;-)

PJ


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 16:11:42 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 18:11:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080911y7255da7aq613a24b7a88778b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:52 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> > In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> > analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>
> I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon Young,
> could be considered a fairly in-depth critical analysis/apologetics study of
> Transhumanism.
>

I have purchased it, even though I have not had time to read it yet.

OTOH, how can a book with a title such as "A Transhumanist Manifesto" be
anti-transhumanist, as per Natasha's request? "Critical" may simply mean
"in-depth, accurate", ma "criticism" does not sound as a applicable to
neutral or favourable commentaries...

Stefano Vaj
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Apr  8 17:07:19 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:07:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804080802x2250a7aep6772a7616e1a3eb5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080802x2250a7aep6772a7616e1a3eb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080408170720.THWU28059.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 10:02 AM 4/8/2008, Stefano wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>I don't think Rifkin mentions transhumanism in his book (does 
>he?)    It is necessary that the criticism is of transhumanism, not 
>just biotech, nanotech or genetic engineering.
>
>
>Ah, OK, you mean critical comments on the transhumanist movement as 
>such. Let me think... 
><http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-How-Biotech-Became-Religion/dp/0738207616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207666855&sr=1-1>Rapture: 
>How Biotech Became the New Religion. A Raucous Tour of Cloning, 
>Transhumanism, and the New Era of Immortality? But it is not *too* critical...

I am already quoting this book.  It is far better than Techgnosis as 
far as credibility is concerned, but it is not anti-transhumanist.

N


>Stefano Vaj
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release Date: 
>4/7/2008 6:38 PM
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Apr  8 17:08:47 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:08:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 09:52 AM 4/8/2008, John wrote:
>Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> > In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> > analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>
>I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon 
>Young, could be considered a fairly in-depth critical 
>analysis/apologetics study of Transhumanism.

I think his book is far better than all others so far as far as being 
objective and well-referenced, but it is not a true critical expose 
of transhumanism.

Natasha

>
><http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1591022908/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link>http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1591022908/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
>
>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591022908/ref=reg_hu-wl_mrai-recs
>
>
>John Grigg
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release Date: 
>4/7/2008 6:38 PM
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 17:18:08 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:18:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha
	-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>

Bill McKibben's loathsome ENOUGH, if we leave aside Fukuyama and Kass.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 17:36:02 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:36:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804081036m70b2ac87wb47a246055ca275c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
wrote:

> Bill McKibben's loathsome ENOUGH, if we leave aside Fukuyama and Kass.
>
>
Yes, right. Even though, there again, he does not discuss transhumanism as a
cultural movement or environment.

Stefano Vaj
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 18:24:07 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:24:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804081036m70b2ac87wb47a246055ca275c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20804081036m70b2ac87wb47a246055ca275c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804081124l414b63a1xcedd6bce60479cd3@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:
I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon Young,
could be considered a fairly in-depth critical analysis/apologetics study of
Transhumanism.
>>>

Natasha replied:
I think his book is far better than all others so far as far as being
objective and well-referenced, but it is not a true critical expose of
transhumanism.
>>>

Stefano wrote:
"Critical" may simply mean "in-depth, accurate", ma "criticism" does not
sound as a applicable to neutral or favourable commentaries...
>>>

Ahh, ok, I was thinking of "critical" and "criticism" in terms of merely
meaning analysis.

Damien wrote:
Bill McKibben's loathsome ENOUGH, if we leave aside Fukuyama and Kass.
>>>

I have not read any of these yet, but I suppose my "pick" (at least in terms
of mainstream publications) would go to one of them.  Does Bill Joy have a
book out on Transhumanism yet? lol

I would recommend the following paper:
"Facing the Challenges of Transhumanism," by Professor Haava
Tirosh-Samuelson, Arizona State University, Department of History

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/Facing%20the%20Challenges%20of%20Transhumanism%20Global%20Spiral%20H%20Samuelson.pdf


John Grigg
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 18:40:07 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:40:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408133646.024dcc50@satx.rr.com>

Who needs critics when the topic is effectively invisible? See my 
friend Dr. (soon to be Dr. Dr.) Russell Blackford's recent blog post:

<http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/04/i-am-not-one-of-australias-best-and.html>

He starts:

"It's gradually becoming known who did and who did not get an 
invitation to the Australia 2020 seminar later this month, in which 
Australia's 1000 supposedly best and brightest thinkers will spend a 
weekend in Canberra solving the nation's problems and working out its 
future trajectory.

"I can report that I didn't get an invitation, and I'm not going to 
pretend I don't care.[...] (hey, guys, you now have a goddamn 
Australian as editor-in-chief of the Journal of Evolution and 
Technology, the leading intellectual flagship of the transhumanist 
movement; just thought I'd let you know)."

Damien Broderick  



From lists at lumen.nu  Tue Apr  8 19:00:06 2008
From: lists at lumen.nu (Joost Rekveld)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:00:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408133646.024dcc50@satx.rr.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408133646.024dcc50@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <634E7A81-0CDD-44CE-8F90-FAAABE4CEEC9@lumen.nu>


I thought this essay was a good discussion/overview of transhumanism:

<http://rhizome.org/discuss/view/11999>

ciao,

Joost.

On  8 Apr, 2008, at 8:40 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>
> Who needs critics when the topic is effectively invisible? See my
> friend Dr. (soon to be Dr. Dr.) Russell Blackford's recent blog post:
>
> <http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/04/i-am-not-one-of- 
> australias-best-and.html>
>
> He starts:
>
> "It's gradually becoming known who did and who did not get an
> invitation to the Australia 2020 seminar later this month, in which
> Australia's 1000 supposedly best and brightest thinkers will spend a
> weekend in Canberra solving the nation's problems and working out its
> future trajectory.
>
> "I can report that I didn't get an invitation, and I'm not going to
> pretend I don't care.[...] (hey, guys, you now have a goddamn
> Australian as editor-in-chief of the Journal of Evolution and
> Technology, the leading intellectual flagship of the transhumanist
> movement; just thought I'd let you know)."
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-------------------------------------------

                               Joost Rekveld
-----------    http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld

-------------------------------------------

"A is better off if B is better off.?

(Heinz von Foerster)

-------------------------------------------

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From rpwl at lightlink.com  Tue Apr  8 19:01:32 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:01:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nine Misunderstandings About AI
In-Reply-To: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>


I have just written a new blog post that is the begining of a daily 
series this week and next, when I will be launching a few broadsides 
against the orthodoxy and explaining where I am going with my work.

http://susaro.com/



Richard Loosemore


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Apr  8 19:22:36 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:22:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
Message-ID: <1207682655_951@s7.cableone.net>

At 08:38 AM 4/6/2008, spike wrote:

>Thanks John, but I didn't write that about breeders.  I have intentionally
>avoided posting anything about the topic ever since doing some calcs on
>Keith's notion of using fairly common neutron sources to separate plutonium.

It's more like making plutonium 239 out of depleted uranium without 
making any plutonium 240.  Sources where you can steal a hundred 
grams of neutrons aren't that common, but every power reactor makes 
kilograms of neutrons over a fuel cycle.  A hundred grams of neutrons 
gives them 24 kg of a better grade Pu 239 than any government ever 
produced.  That's enough for 4 implosion bombs.

>That was a shock to my system, because I still haven't figured out why that
>wouldn't work.  Unless I was sleeping in one of my physics lectures, that
>would work.  I never slept in those physics lectures, I loved those things.

It's more combining separation chemistry with the really well known 
transmutation of U 238.  I figured this out at least a decade 
ago.  Finally decided it was better to have it in the open than 
keeping it to myself, especially after the US scattered DU all over 
the mid east.  (I was also really pissed about being jailed by a 
corrupted government.)

>That being said, I am now calculating the impact of bad guys with plutonium.
>I am still convinced that detonating a nuke is technically difficult,

If they are not constrained by military requirements to make it small 
and rugged, i.e., they can use the volume of a shipping container 
then there is a really simple path.  They need big aluminum 
spinnings, half ellipsoids 4 feet deep and about 3.5 feet in 
diameter.  Easy to make and simple to disguise as reflectors for 
stadium lights.

Here is how you make 
them. 
<http://www.metalspinningworkshop.com/MovieClipTwo.html>http://www.metalspinningworkshop.com/MovieClipTwo.html 
But that's not the only way.  A cnc lathe, a bunch of glued up sticks 
and line it with aluminum foil would work.  Heck, use a cardboard 
guide made with a string and two pins to guide hand turning the 
ellipsoidal surface.

Then use two half elipsoids to make an ellipsoidal reflecting 
surface.  The bad guys put their implosion device with a uniform 
shell of some high grade explosive around it at one foci and put 5 
pounds of flash powder at the other foci.  They can fire the flash 
powder with a damned fuse!  They do need to be careful about putting 
the fuse end in the center of the ball of flash.  The pulse of light 
from the flash powder takes 8ns to bounce off the polished inside 
surface and arrive at the explosive shell.  The shell of explosives 
may require something to make it more light sensitive, but that's 
probably not hard.

So without hydrocodes to design the explosive drivers, or fast 
krytron switches or any of the rest of the electronics that make 
bombs complicated, they get a uniform spherical detonation.  It would 
take some work and some testing to get all this right.  With a light 
sensitive primary explosive on the surface of the sphere, they might 
be able to use a xenon strobe light instead of flash powder.

>but a
>dirty bomb is simple.  So how much plutonium would it take to mess up a city
>indefinitely?

There are tens of thousands of tons of it in old reactor fuel 
rods.  But if you want to know, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

snip

Keith  



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 19:55:17 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:55:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nine Misunderstandings About AI
In-Reply-To: <47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>
References: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408144734.010d0c20@satx.rr.com>

At 03:01 PM 4/8/2008 -0400, Richard wrote:

>http://susaro.com/

I don't know what you're saying in this par:

<8.  It is often assumed that there will be large numbers of robots, 
but they will all be controlled by different governments or 
corporations, and used as instruments of power. The main argument 
against this idea is that it would require an extremely unlikely 
combination of circumstances for this kind of situation to become 
established. The first artificial intelligence would have to be both 
smart and designed to be aggressive, but this combination would be 
almost impossible to pull off, even for a military organization. The 
long version of the argument against this idea is too long to 
summarize in one paragraph, but the bottom line is that even though 
this seems like a reasonable and plausible possibility for the 
future, it turns out to be deeply implausible when examined carefully. >

Perhaps you mean the idea that ONLY large entities, governmental and 
corporate, would have AIs/bots, as is the case these days with 
aircraft carriers and nuclear power stations. All others would be 
illegal. If so, what has this to do with the first AIs being 
*aggressive*? Designed for death-dealing?

Or are you arguing against a claim (perhaps akin to Asimov's 
positronic brains with structured-in Laws) that there'll be many 
robots but all necessarily of the same architecture--except now it 
would be aggressive?

Damien Broderick 



From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 19:57:48 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:57:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] medical news
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804081257n356c66e3md04c2e283ec1c91e@mail.gmail.com>

For Gina:

I have several research papers in pdf.
It's simplest to send them directly to you , likely tomorrow PM.
Then analyse , consult with your health advisors etc as to determine how to
proceed.

Morris

-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net, arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From ferox314 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 21:47:27 2008
From: ferox314 at gmail.com (John Winters)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:47:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62f900cb0804081447t3289aebem7b6a6e2587e00e91@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
> > the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded
>
> ### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from private
> money?

Yes, but 70% of all private money is spent on applied science, 30% on
basic science.  For public money it is roughly the reverse, 70% is
spent on basic science, 30% on applied science.  So his assertion that
most basic science breakthroughs are publicly funded is correct.
Applied scienceis ultimately based on basic science knowledge.  The
private sector can think of that as a government hand out.

JW


From kanzure at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 22:56:47 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:56:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804080635h23484eabv955899364121db8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804080635h23484eabv955899364121db8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804081756.47146.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given
> us the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
> bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
> funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of
> the scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal
> profit (it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but
> the approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play
> when someone catches wind of a marketable product.

Stathis, you sparked a few neurons, so I'm going to run with my own 
direction here. First, how much can we do on our own? What do I mean by 
on our own? It mostly means by our own responsibility for our own 
health, i.e., individually, what can we do to make sure that we can 
prevent diseases and if we do get diseases, then how can we 
collectively leverage our time and energy into fighting those diseases 
without having to rely on all of these socioeconomic factors? There are 
many people that are not able to get health care as it is, and I don't 
wish to comment on the silly money-based system where we get to 
disregard people simply because they do not have enough 'money'. Those 
situations bare a striking resemblance to the common state of not being 
in medical control in the first place. So what can we do? 

This question has been asked by the venture capitalists and the 
scientists that fund startups, and as far as I can tell, they get 
insights and run with them. But this is not a systematic approach to 
solving specific diseases. It works, yes, but then we have the FDA and 
tons of testing that does not necessarily apply to all cases of 
individuals who might find those molecules or modifications useful. 
There's just no way that the FDA can do as many tests as they would 
like to, and the number of individuals signing up for FDA testing, or 
the animal testing (I don't have any numbers on this) -- in general, 
it's just a big giant mess from what I can imagine. How could it be 
otherwise? We have no standardized human testing module nor ways to 
leverage our individual differences in the medical system. There's 
simply no way that we can do giant medical combinatorial libraries, 
unless we're working on the molecular level like with aptamers, but 
even then that does not really work for the diseases that must be 
fought on a cellular or tissue level instead of molecular. The 
cellular/tissue level seems just beyond our ability to simulate without 
Markram's funding (heh), and definitely beyond our physical means to 
experiment with in any combinatorial manner. So what hope would the 
individual have at the moment of doing anything about a medical 
condition? It takes massive experiments to narrow down possibilities if 
you don't have any clue. My first reaction is to offer self-replicating 
computation or self-replicating experiments as the solution, however I 
dislike relying too much on any one single idea, so what are the 
alternatives? 

Perhaps a method of preparation, not for worst case scenarios, but for 
just-in-case, so that you can cope with anything that comes up. How, 
though? Wouldn't you have to traverse the disciplines that the problems 
show up in? That's just-in-time learning. The alternative is learning 
it all upfront, which is tons of overhead to managing the human body. 
Perhaps specialization [of individuals] isn't too bad ... as long as 
it's in small groups, rather than some large, institutional plan. But 
this is only in the mean time, until we get those other (more 
productive) alternatives up and running. Which takes me back to 
a 'knowledge database' that I have been planning (not ai, no grounding 
problems since it's linked back to people and contacts) and setting up 
in the background, so that in the situation that you do come across 
some new term, there's a way to get information and relevant software 
to the situation or engineering project and so on. It may sound 
intense, but it happens to conveniently coincide with the goals of 
brute forcing a self-replicating machine. So. :)

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 23:33:01 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:33:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <380-2200842823331867@M2W032.mail2web.com>


From: John Grigg

"I would recommend the following paper:
'Facing the Challenges of Transhumanism,' by Professor Haava
Tirosh-Samuelson, Arizona State University, Department of History"

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/Facing%20the%20Challenges%20of%20Transhuman
ism%20Global%20Spiral%20H%20Samuelson.pdf

Good choice John.  This paper is well-written.  But like others who cut and
past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
transhumanism with lots of mistakes.  (WTA did not create the movement
(duh), the Transhumanist Declaration was instigated by Sasha mid-90s.) She
hacks knowledge with assumptions about FM Esfandiary, and so on, and she
neglects to mention Damien Broderick, etc. I appreciate her investment in
an inquiry concerning the flaws of transhumanism and I think she has many
solid points.  BUT she seems to be brown-nosing academia which is always a
turnoff (to me anyway).

Natasha


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com ? What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint




From jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov  Mon Apr  7 21:24:14 2008
From: jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jim Stevenson)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:24:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian Orthodox
	Church
Message-ID: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>

Hi.

Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
and are using its features.

Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
under which OS, and why?
I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end,
though your mail program may hide them from you.
This is why others may not have pointed out the mime attached html problem.

Your mime attached html post, which I have appended,
is exactly what I received.

Are you using html to display anything other than plain text?
Unless you really are using the html features,
the defaults should be set to both post and answer in plain text,
or uuencode, if plain text is not an option.
your answer mode should also be set to
answer in plain text, or answer in uuencode,
not to answer in kind.

I am most concerned about viruses in unintended attachments.

If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
I have already listened to mine.

I read email with speech,
So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes 
without listening to them again,
and the mime code and html after the header are not speech friendly.
to quickly get to the new information.
The mime attached html is far from speech friendly!

--

Thanks much again as always.


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Subject: [ExI] "Ten Regulations" of the Russian Orthodox Church
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*I thought that along with our discussion of the Roman Catholic "Seven
Deadly Social Sins," we could also evaluate the "Ten Regulations" that the
Russian Orthodox Church has issued for Russian business people.*
**
*I think Moses was on to something when he came down from the mountain with
the powerfully named "Ten Commandments."  The "Ten Regulations" sound more
like a "revelation" from the Department of Transportation! lol    *
**
*But I do view the "Ten Regulations" as being much more humane and necessary
(especially considering Russia's current state of affairs) than the "Seven
Deadly Social Sins."   *
**
*John Grigg*
**

*http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/120**04_church.html<http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/12004_church.html>
*
**
**
*The regulations explain how the rich and the poor must live *
Russian businessmen are offered to follow a code of moral principles and
regulations in their everyday life and
business<http://english.pravda.ru/news/business/>activity. The
principles resembling the Ten Biblical Commandments were
declared at the Global All-Russian Orthodox Council (Sobor) summoned upon
blessing of Patriarchy Alexiy II on February 4.

Authors of the code of moral principles say that the document was developed
with participation of representatives from the Russian Union of Businessmen
and Industrialists, the Business Russia and OPORa organizations. Gazeta
learnt that main objective of the code is "to maximally introduce business
into the public sphere; nobody will judge businessmen according to the laws
of the country but businessmen themselves will judge their own conscience."
Thus, one of the precepts warns businessmen that wealth is not an end in
itself: it must serve for creation of good life of a man and the nation.

As for taxes, the authors of the code explain that tax evasion is "stealing
from orphans, the aged, disabled and other unprotected categories of
people." The document says that payment of taxes for needs of the society
must no longer be a burden or a forced duty; this must be honorary doing
deserving gratitude of the society.
The regulations also explain how the poor should live: "Poor people must
behave with dignity, aim at efficient labor and improve their professional
skills to overcome poverty."

The Charter was developed for about a year. Originally, the document was
developed by a commission headed by President of the National Economy
Academy Vladimir Mau and consisting of Deputy Chairman of the Federal
Commission for the Securities Market Yelena Katayeva, Duma deputy Sergey
Glazyev and public relations department of the Moscow Patriarchy. In January
2004, businessmen also joined the commission to develop the document. No
names of the businessmen were reported.

Metropolitan Kirill told Gazeta that it was not registered who exactly
introduced different amendments to the document. The metropolitan says that
all largest associations of Russian industrialists took part in development
of the document. It is said that even writers and philologists took part in
discussion of the Charter.

The church will publicly condemn those who ignore the regulations. However,
it is not clear whether atheists and people of other religions must follow
the precepts as well. What is more, even though the Council (Sobor) was
blessed by the patriarchy, it is not the church, and we cannot say that the
Russian Orthodox Church introduces regulations for businessmen to follow.
Meanwhile, some of the Charter authors want to develop ten precepts for
governmental officials as well. *

**Here are the ten regulations that the All-Russian Orthodox Council has
developed for Russian businessmen.
  *
1. Remember the spiritual meaning of life while earning the daily bread.
Take care of the welfare of other people, the nation and the country when
seeking personal welfare.
2. Wealth is not end in itself. It must serve for creation of good life of
any individual and the nation.
3. The culture of business relations and adherence to promises help people
become better and improve economy.
4. A human being is not a continuously working mechanism: he needs time for
relaxation, spiritual life and creative progress.
5. The government, society and business must join their efforts to take care
of good life of workers and especially of those who cannot earn their
living. Management is a responsible activity.
6. Work should not kill and cripple people.
7. The political authority and the economic authority must be separated.
Interference of business into politics, its effect upon the public opinion
must be transparent only. Corrupt people and other criminals cannot be
allowed to economy.
8. A man violates the moral law, causes damage to the society and to himself
when he misappropriates other people's property, disregards the common
property, does not pay to his employees or deceives partners.
9. Lies and insulting, exploitation of vices and instincts are inadmissible
in competitive activity.
10. Businessmen must respect the institution of property, the right for
ownership and for management of property. It is immoral to envy other
people's well-being and encroach upon other people's property.

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<div align="justify"><strong>I thought that along with our discussion of the Roman Catholic&nbsp;&quot;Seven Deadly Social Sins,&quot; we could also evaluate the &quot;Ten Regulations&quot; that the Russian Orthodox Church has issued for Russian business people.</strong></div>

<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>I think Moses was on to something when he came down from the mountain with the&nbsp;powerfully named&nbsp;&quot;Ten Commandments.&quot;&nbsp; The &quot;Ten Regulations&quot; sound more like a &quot;revelation&quot; from the Department of Transportation! lol&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </strong></div>

<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>But I do&nbsp;view the &quot;Ten Regulations&quot; as being much&nbsp;more humane and necessary (especially considering Russia&#39;s current state of affairs)&nbsp;than the &quot;Seven Deadly Social Sins.&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp;</strong></div>

<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>John Grigg</strong></div>
<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify">&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong><a href="http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/12004_church.html">http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/120</a></strong><strong>04_church.html</strong></div>
<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>The regulations explain how the rich and the poor must live </strong><br>Russian businessmen are offered to follow a code of moral principles and regulations in their everyday life and <a href="http://english.pravda.ru/news/business/">business</a> activity. The principles resembling the Ten Biblical Commandments were declared at the Global All-Russian Orthodox Council (Sobor) summoned upon blessing of Patriarchy Alexiy II on February 4.&nbsp; </div>

<p align="justify">Authors of the code of moral principles say that the document was developed with participation of representatives from the Russian Union of Businessmen and Industrialists, the Business Russia and OPORa organizations. Gazeta learnt that main objective of the code is &quot;to maximally introduce business into the public sphere; nobody will judge businessmen according to the laws of the country but businessmen themselves will judge their own conscience.&quot; Thus, one of the precepts warns businessmen that wealth is not an end in itself: it must serve for creation of good life of a man and the nation.&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; <br>As for taxes, the authors of the code explain that tax evasion is &quot;stealing from orphans, the aged, disabled and other unprotected categories of people.&quot; The document says that payment of taxes for needs of the society must no longer be a burden or a forced duty; this must be honorary doing deserving gratitude of the society.&nbsp; </p>

<div align="justify">The regulations also explain how the poor should live: &quot;Poor people must behave with dignity, aim at efficient labor and improve their professional skills to overcome poverty.&quot; <br>&nbsp;<br>The Charter was developed for about a year. Originally, the document was developed by a commission headed by President of the National Economy Academy Vladimir Mau and consisting of Deputy Chairman of the Federal Commission for the Securities Market Yelena Katayeva, Duma deputy Sergey Glazyev and public relations department of the Moscow Patriarchy. In January 2004, businessmen also joined the commission to develop the document. No names of the businessmen were reported.<br>
&nbsp;<br>Metropolitan Kirill told Gazeta that it was not registered who exactly introduced different amendments to the document. The metropolitan says that all largest associations of Russian industrialists took part in development of the document. It is said that even writers and philologists took part in discussion of the Charter. <br>
&nbsp; <br>The church will publicly condemn those who ignore the regulations. However, it is not clear whether atheists and people of other religions must follow the precepts as well. What is more, even though the Council (Sobor) was blessed by the patriarchy, it is not the church, and we cannot say that the Russian Orthodox Church introduces regulations for businessmen to follow. Meanwhile, some of the Charter authors want to develop ten precepts for governmental officials as well.&nbsp;<strong> <br>
&nbsp; <br></strong><strong><em>Here are the ten regulations that the All-Russian Orthodox Council has developed for Russian businessmen.<br></em>&nbsp; </strong><br>1. Remember the spiritual meaning of life while earning the daily bread. Take care of the welfare of other people, the nation and the country when seeking personal welfare.<br>
2. Wealth is not end in itself. It must serve for creation of good life of any individual and the nation.<br>3. The culture of business relations and adherence to promises help people become better and improve economy.<br>
4. A human being is not a continuously working mechanism: he needs time for relaxation, spiritual life and creative progress. <br>5. The government, society and business must join their efforts to take care of good life of workers and especially of those who cannot earn their living. Management is a responsible activity.<br>
6. Work should not kill and cripple people.<br>7. The political authority and the economic authority must be separated. Interference of business into politics, its effect upon the public opinion must be transparent only. Corrupt people and other criminals cannot be allowed to economy.<br>
8. A man violates the moral law, causes damage to the society and to himself when he misappropriates other people&#39;s property, disregards the common property, does not pay to his employees or deceives partners. <br>9. Lies and insulting, exploitation of vices and instincts are inadmissible in competitive activity. <br>
10. Businessmen must respect the institution of property, the right for ownership and for management of property. It is immoral to envy other people&#39;s well-being and encroach upon other people&#39;s property.</div>
<div align="justify">&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify">&nbsp;</div>

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From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  8 20:10:52 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:10:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>

I've been looking for a place to share my thoughts about transhumanism, which I consider the best-case scenarion for the future. Among a dozen thoughts I have now one question: what do you all know or think about the possible technological singularity. Some scientists state that such a large leap will take place in the near future (<30 years) that there is no way of predicting the impact. For those interested: a logarithmic plot was drawn to show the greatest inventions of humanity and somewhere it has to reach zero where it evidently can't (elementary maths) and this singularity is about to come. If the question has been raised, sorry, I've just joined recently. Anyway, I'd be interested to see any valuable info about this.

Thomas Pardy
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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 23:33:29 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:33:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>


From: John Grigg

"I would recommend the following paper:
'Facing the Challenges of Transhumanism,' by Professor Haava
Tirosh-Samuelson, Arizona State University, Department of History"

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/Facing%20the%20Challenges%20of%20Transhuman
ism%20Global%20Spiral%20H%20Samuelson.pdf

Good choice John.  This paper is well-written.  But like others who cut and
past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
transhumanism with lots of mistakes.  (WTA did not create the movement
(duh), the Transhumanist Declaration was instigated by Sasha mid-90s.) She
hacks knowledge with assumptions about FM Esfandiary, and so on, and she
neglects to mention Damien Broderick, etc. I appreciate her investment in
an inquiry concerning the flaws of transhumanism and I think she has many
solid points.  BUT she seems to be brown-nosing academia which is always a
turnoff (to me anyway).

Natasha


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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Apr  9 00:50:45 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:50:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society  ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>

At 10:48 PM 4/7/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>Me:
> >>Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred
> >> miles of its 22000 mile length.
>
>hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
> > That's not a lightweight solution
>
>Who cares, nanotubes are strong and you only have to do it for a short
>distance.

There are no nanotube cables yet that are strong enough for a space 
elevator.  The long rumored 20 GPa is not strong enough.  40 GPa is 
marginal, you have to get into the 50 GPa range or higher.

The taper ratio is exp (p [in kg/m^3]/s [in Pa-N/m^2] x 4.832 x 10^7 m^2 s^-2)

The density for nanotube cable is about 1300 kg/m^3.  1300/(20 x 
10^9) x 4.832 x 10^7 = 3.1408, exp 3.1408 is about 23.  This means in 
the step-taper design that two cables leaving the earth would grow to 
46 at GEO, not counting the departure of step taper from ideal or the 
mass of the free spinning pulleys.

At 40 GPa, the ratio is about 5, so 2 cables would grow to 10 at 
GEO.  At 50 the ratio is about 3.5 so 2 cables would grow to 7 or 4 
would grow to 14.  This is just the cable holding itself up, no 
margin for payloads going up the cable.

Rubber has a dialectic strength of around 500 volts/mil, and a 
density close to water.  (I had to dig out my Handbook of Physics and 
Chemistry since I could not find these quickly on the net.)  500 kV 
would be an inch, close enough to 2.5 cm, twice that for a million 
volts, and twice again to go from radius to diameter (with no safety 
factor).  Giving some space for the wire in the middle, the minimum 
cross section would be about 100 sq cm or .01 sq meters.  So every 
hundred meters would take a ton of insulation, ten tons per km, or 
2000 tons if you just had to insulate only 100 km for two wires.  (If 
one gets nicked, the other has to carry the entire voltage stress, so 
I don't share the insulation between them.

The rough designs of a moving cable elevator gives a best case mass 
of about 50 times the daily through put, but only about 1/20th (100 
tons) of the loading is in the sensitive lower 1000 miles.  So as a 
rough estimate, the cable mass to hold up 100 km of rubber insulation 
alone would be in the range of 2 million tons.

> > plus the fact that atomic oxygen will eat the rubber.
>
>Well regardless of that observation I tend to think that criticism doesn't
>forever destroy the possibility of space elevators ever carrying power and
>rendering the concept physically imposable, as mythical as perpetual motion.

It isn't mythical, but it's sure on the remote side of the ocean of 
engineering possibilities.

> > Building power sats from the ground is a possible step into space where
> > space industry/colonies are not.
>
>I don't quite know what you mean by that.

"While we all may agree that a beanstalk would be nice,
we need to be cautious about proposing is a a way to
facilitate SBSP. The following is a story I've told
before, but it's worth repeating:

"I was once at a Congressional hearing where Peter
Glaser described the SPS, and then Gerry O'Neill got
up and proved (he said) that the SPS was hopelessly
uneconomic unless it was built from materials from the
Moon. The Chairman thanked both of them for their
presentations, and said he was especially grateful to
Prof O'Neill. He  might have been willing to consider
Peter's fantastic vision, but Gerry had shown that
another fantasy, lunar industrialization, was a
prerequisite. Gerry had saved the Committee from
wasting any more time on this subject, since a fantasy
built on a fantasy was not worth thinking about.

"Unfair it may be, but any talk about the space
elevator as a precursor to SBSP will turn the giggle
factor into a belly laugh, and prevent any funding of
either."

Phil Chapman (April 5, 2008)

> > Do you remember who I am?
>
>Yes I do, you're the fellow who started the L5 society and from that I can
>only conclude you are a better man than me. I mean that Keith, I hope you
>don't think my arguing with you over this small point as any sign of
>disrespect.

I don't have any problem with you arguing over points small or 
large.  But when they involve statements that should rest on physical 
reality, I really wish you would at least state the problem as you 
understand in terms of numbers.  If you don't know how to set up or 
solve problems like the mass penalty for insulating cables, ask

Best wishes,

Keith 



From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  9 01:04:42 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:04:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nine Misunderstandings About AI
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408144734.010d0c20@satx.rr.com>
References: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>	<47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408144734.010d0c20@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47FC162A.2050906@lightlink.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
> At 03:01 PM 4/8/2008 -0400, Richard wrote:
> 
>> http://susaro.com/
> 
> I don't know what you're saying in this par:
> 
> <8.  It is often assumed that there will be large numbers of robots, 
> but they will all be controlled by different governments or 
> corporations, and used as instruments of power. The main argument 
> against this idea is that it would require an extremely unlikely 
> combination of circumstances for this kind of situation to become 
> established. The first artificial intelligence would have to be both 
> smart and designed to be aggressive, but this combination would be 
> almost impossible to pull off, even for a military organization. The 
> long version of the argument against this idea is too long to 
> summarize in one paragraph, but the bottom line is that even though 
> this seems like a reasonable and plausible possibility for the 
> future, it turns out to be deeply implausible when examined carefully. >
> 
> Perhaps you mean the idea that ONLY large entities, governmental and 
> corporate, would have AIs/bots, as is the case these days with 
> aircraft carriers and nuclear power stations. All others would be 
> illegal. If so, what has this to do with the first AIs being 
> *aggressive*? Designed for death-dealing?
> 
> Or are you arguing against a claim (perhaps akin to Asimov's 
> positronic brains with structured-in Laws) that there'll be many 
> robots but all necessarily of the same architecture--except now it 
> would be aggressive?

I was implicitly assuming that if there were independent AI systems 
across the globe, and if they were not free agents, but in some sense 
controlled, then two things would have to be true:

a) They would almost certainly have to be controlled by governments or 
corporations, because such organizations would not allow them out, and

b) Given what was said earlier, they would could only be "controlled" if 
someone deliberately gave them a "loyal" motivation.

Under these circumstance, most people jump straight to the assumption 
that the most effective type of Samurai robot (which is what this would 
be, no?) would be one programmed to be, not just loyal, but as cunning 
and aggressive as possible, because in a competitive environment it's 
the Nice Robots that finish last.

I am trying to describe one meme-complex here, and in my experience this 
scenario is one that comes up a lot:  the governments and zaibatsus will 
own them, and these entities will duke it out by using the AIs as weapons.

My (summarized) argument against it is that, given all the other factors 
that make this unlikely, and given the fact that the only way to build a 
really powerful Samurai Robot is to allow it to understand its own 
design so it can bootstrap, we can expect that these folks will run into 
serious trouble (if they ever get that far):  the Samurai will know that 
bootstrapping plus aggression will equal eventual destruction.  At that 
point, I believe that the result will be a spontaneous decision to 
remove the destabilizing motivations.

More on this in due course.


Richard Loosemore


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 00:58:14 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:58:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian
	OrthodoxChurch
In-Reply-To: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <200804090125.m391OtxH020234@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


Ooops my mistake.  I sent this on thru moderation before I read it all.

Hi Jim!  Long time no see.  Did you really mean to post all this stuff about
Russian Orthodox church rules?

Are there those among us who know from post formats such that the sight
impaired among us can interpret the messages effectively?  Please advise.

spike

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Jim Stevenson
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:24 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org; possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the 
> Russian OrthodoxChurch
> 
> Hi.
> 
> Please forgive if you really want to attach html and are 
> using its features.
> 
>...
> 
> I read email with speech,
> So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes ...



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Apr  9 00:09:06 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:09:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <380-22008439096619@M2W012.mail2web.com>

From: Joost Rekveld lists at lumen.nu


"I thought this essay was a good discussion/overview of transhumanism:

<http://rhizome.org/discuss/view/11999> "

Another excellent choice.  I am reading it right now and my
yellow-highlighter is growing weak with so many mark-ups!

Thanks,
Natasha

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 02:19:52 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:19:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian Orthodox
	Church
In-Reply-To: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
References: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <62c14240804081919hbd5eb3bt73165d241f191c33@mail.gmail.com>

What you describe seems like you are advocating top-posting for
accessibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting)

I believe this is at odds with list policy to use bottom-posting (the
rest of my reply is blow the quoted material)

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jim Stevenson <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>  If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
>  I have already listened to mine.
>  I read email with speech,
>  So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes  without listening to them again,

Bottom posting seems to facilitate a more judicious selection of
quoted material.  It is common to see top-posted threads where the
contributors neglect to trim their quotes.  This tends to redundantly
nest quoted material and drives down the signal to noise ratio with
each quoted reply.


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Apr  9 02:44:39 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:44:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1207709179_3647@S3.cableone.net>

At 01:10 PM 4/8/2008, Thomas Pardy wrote:
>I've been looking for a place to share my thoughts about 
>transhumanism, which I consider the best-case scenarion for the 
>future. Among a dozen thoughts I have now one question: what do you 
>all know or think about the possible technological singularity. Some 
>scientists state that such a large leap will take place in the near 
>future (<30 years) that there is no way of predicting the impact. 
>For those interested: a logarithmic plot was drawn to show the 
>greatest inventions of humanity and somewhere it has to reach zero 
>where it evidently can't (elementary maths) and this singularity is 
>about to come. If the question has been raised, sorry, I've just 
>joined recently. Anyway, I'd be interested to see any valuable info about this.

The singularity and its various aspects such as nanotechnology and AI 
have been discussed on this and related lists such as sl4 for close 
to two decades.  You would be well advised to look into the archives here:

http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/

Other places are

http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk  and

http://www.sl4.org/

There is a vast store of information 
here:  http://www.kurzweilai.net/index.html?flash=1

As well as in Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity is Near."

My own opinion of the subject is the result of knowing Dr Eric 
Drexler from even before his first paper on nanotechnology.

I frankly doubt physical state humans will survive the 
singularity.  It's such a hard subject to discuss that I finally 
turned to fiction.

http://www.terasemjournals.org/GN0202/henson.html

Your IP address is interesting.  Hungary?

Keith Henson




From sentience at pobox.com  Wed Apr  9 03:48:01 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:48:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47FC3C71.10900@pobox.com>

M1N3R wrote:
> I've been looking for a place to share my thoughts about transhumanism, 
> which I consider the best-case scenarion for the future. Among a dozen 
> thoughts I have now one question: what do you all know or think about 
> the possible technological singularity. Some scientists state that such 
> a large leap will take place in the near future (<30 years) that there 
> is no way of predicting the impact. For those interested: a logarithmic 
> plot was drawn to show the greatest inventions of humanity and somewhere 
> it has to reach zero where it evidently can't (elementary maths) and 
> this singularity is about to come. If the question has been raised, 
> sorry, I've just joined recently. Anyway, I'd be interested to see any 
> valuable info about this.

http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/09/30/three-major-singularity-schools/

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:08:05 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:08:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight, Deregulating Stock Exchanges
References: <01a601c8937d$cf0bc7f0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804011448q1818a10k61dc3a6fea81c4e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <057501c899f7$a9c80910$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rafal wrote

Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: EP and Peak oil

> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> 
> > For example, the most efficient means of capital formation in
> > western civilization appears to be the development of the limited
> > liability corporation.  Unfortunately, without supervision from
> > some sovereign state company managers take advantage of
> > stock holders to such an extent that sooner or later funds dry
> > up, thus retarding economic growth.  Institutions such as the SEC
> > are therefore necessary, so far as I have been able to determine.
> 
> ### Apostasy! 

Yes  :-)  It doesn't come easily. But I don't want to be too open
to the kind of criticism of "unrealism" that I so often dish out to
the socialists.

> There is good evidence that private stock exchanges are superior
> to government organizations at enforcing proper accounting to
> alleviate the agent-principal problem in limited liability corporations.

I would be glad to hear of it. But I note that your sentence and your
claim floats in a context-free----I mean culture-free----air of
general applicability to human beings. Is *every* society and *every*
civilization composed of historical type human beings necessarily capable
of self-regulation, self-government, and almost unrestrained capitalism?
I ask that as a general sort of question which you and other readers
may or may not wish to explore. I myself don't think so.

> Stock exchanges rely on long term persistence to attract customers,
> and that means both companies and shareholders. As long as there
> is sufficient transparency and alternative conduits for information
> (e.g. press, blogs, whistleblowers), as well as competition between
> exchanges, the owners of stock exchanges stand to gain by
> discouraging dishonest companies from listing. If the misbehavior
> of one company on their list becomes public, all other companies
> suffer, since potential shareholders will look for another exchange
> that is not tainted by scandal, and their volume of trade as well as
> income, will go down.

This sounds excellent in theory, and I firmly believe, it is *towards* 
such freedoms and such conditions that we must keep trying to
move our societies. But when liberals, socialists, and other scalawags
suggest that we should move towards more regulation and more
government, then I immediately challenge them to provide historical
examples where such, if carried out very far at all, made things
better and not worse.  (Of course, seldom or never do any of them
succeed in providing examples from the last two centuries---on the
other hand, the failures are all too familiar and obvious.) 

So I *must* challenge you on the same grounds. (To your credit
and the credit of the ideas you propose, you do mention a very
interesting case of China below. Which must be further examined,
but which is as yet not very impressive.)

For example, why was it that throughout the 19th century it just
so happened that not *one* of the relatively free market societies
on Earth managed to create the kind of exchanges you speak of?
Can the case really be made that it was only the existence of
governments that were too strong that prevented it? The U.S.
government in 1855 was among the weakest (and hence best)
that has ever existed. But we know what was happening in the stock
exchanges at the time.  For the best (and highly amusing) account, read
"The Scarlet Woman of Wall Street" by John Steel Gordon
http://www.amazon.com/Scarlet-Woman-Wall-Street-Vanderbilt/dp/1555842127
where---so that readers get the general idea, 'twas the Erie
Railroad that was the scarlet woman  :-)    

> Companies also want to have high liquidity of their stock,
> which means they prefer exchanges with lots of potential
> investors, and so there is a strong incentive to maximize
> volume of trade over long periods of time. Self-regulation
> of industries to minimize transaction costs (which entails
> combating fraud) is a natural development in any situation
> with competition, transparency and long-term persistence.
> Laugh at me if you want

Laugh? No, I appreciate the information very, very much!

> but the Chinese stock exchanges are an example of emerging
> self-regulation.

Well, let's hope so.  Now it would be nice if the U.S. today had
an 1855 type small federal government, and so could conduct
up to 50 separate experiments towards the self-regulation in stock
markets you speak of. Even now, I would promote step-by-step
reductions in the oversight of the SEC provided that the most
knowledgeable people involved would anticipate no debacle.

> The biggest problem with the government here is that it
> frequently preempts the development of such self-regulatory
> mechanisms, and imposes complex, costly, one-size-fits-all
> rules with poor feedback and frequently is subject to
> "regulatory capture" - the gaining of control over regulators
> by some of the regulated entities.

Yes, so very typical of governments.  It emerges from the
general, simplistic conception that knowledge need not be
locally based, and can be dished out by sufficiently "wise
men" from on-high. Would that everyone could absorb
"Knowledge and Decisions" by Thomas Sowell.

> A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley, which imposed huge
> costs that disproportionately afflict smaller businesses, and
> thus serve to limit the competition against entrenched large
> companies - exactly the companies that lobby the government
> and hire former SEC employees (the "revolving door"
> phenomenon).
> 
> So whenever a government official tells you to be afraid of
> freedom and to give him more control of your life, be afraid
> of him. He is not your friend.

Right.

Lee



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 03:52:42 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:52:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian
	OrthodoxChurch
In-Reply-To: <62c14240804081919hbd5eb3bt73165d241f191c33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804090419.m394JM7e003403@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Mike Dougherty
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:20 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the 
> Russian OrthodoxChurch
> 
> What you describe seems like you are advocating top-posting 
> for accessibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting)
> 
> I believe this is at odds with list policy to use 
> bottom-posting (the rest of my reply is blow the quoted material)
> 
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jim Stevenson 
> <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >  If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
...


Ok here is the way:  When replying to Jim Stevenson, top posting is allowed,
yea verily, encouraged enthusiastically.  The rest of the time, no top
posting, and trim the messages judiciously and generously in any reply,
thanks.

spike







From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:18:19 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:18:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien wrote

To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] EP and Peak oil


> What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven 
> my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical
> health system, funded from taxation together with private
> insurance, that would support me in Australia.[1]
> 
> "Socialism" is an absurd would-be "red-baiting" description,
> but it's presumably the sort of scare label that frightens many
> working USians away from demanding such a health system.

I'm sorry to grope about in search of a term that would self-
describe you and your fellow travelers. (Oops, sorry.)
Anything except "progressive" will do. 

> [1] I await the inevitable reply (although not from Lee):
> "Why doncha go back there, then, ya Commie stooge?"

Yes, you ought to be safe here from such mindless suggestions.
I myself, for example, might choose to move somewhere else
for a better standard of living or for some other reason, yet 
should that require that I not be free to criticize any aspects
of my new home (or any other thing, for that matter)? 
Certainly not!

Still the question does pop up in people's minds, "After paying
those taxes all those years in Australia in exchange for, er,
"socialized" health care, what could have been so attractive
to want to make you leave?  To which you can very rightly
and justly say "None of your damn business".  That could
very well be my own answer if I relocated to London, say,
and then started criticizing certain aspects of life or the
government there.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:28:54 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:28:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien also wrote

To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:51 AM

> At 10:35 AM 4/4/2008 -0500, I quoted Krugman:
> 
>> As Mrs. Edwards pointed out, the McCain health
>> plan would do nothing to prevent insurance
>> companies from denying coverage to those, like
>> her and Mr. McCain, who have preexisting medical conditions.
> 
> Barbara Lamar points out to me that <"Insurance" is not really 
> insurance if the event it's expected to protect against already has a 
> probability of 1.>
> 
> True. The part of the quoted sentences to place emphasis on is 
> "health care plan" or system rather than "insurance" which is a 
> mechanism.  If everyone is covered from conception or birth on, 
> nobody (yet) knows what maladies will arise for any individual.

Yes, it's an extremely perverse use of the word "insurance" as
a euphemism for "national or tax-funded health care system".
(Hmm, I guess that is the phrase I should use since the "s"
word arouses sensitivities in many.) 

> Does this mean those whose choices predictably *make* them sick or 
> damaged get a free handout at the expense of the rest? I certainly 
> resent that as well, but there might be subtle cost-benefit 
> calculations that produce non-intuitive minimax solutions.

Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system of national,
tax-funded medical care, there will end up being bureaucrats
who make the hard decisions about who gets what expensive
treatments. Do you really expect the son of a senator to be
treated with the same lack of deference a typical semiretired
software engineer would be?  There is a record of a certain
baseball player---I forget who---who was put at the head of
the list for some state or federally funded medical treatment
a few years back. You'll never root out that kind of corruption.

I say let the contracts be written, literal, and binding (and
strongly enforced by the government) between those who
legitimately want insurance for whatever they're afraid of.
And if you are unlucky enough to be born with a condition
that *predictably* at age 40 will start to require $100,000
or $10,000,000 treatments each month to overcome, well,
better then to have been of economic utility to other 
people and have become rich.

Lee


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  9 04:42:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:42:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408233141.025a0f88@satx.rr.com>

At 09:18 PM 4/8/2008 -0700, Lee asked:

>Still the question does pop up in people's minds, "After paying
>those taxes all those years in Australia in exchange for, er,
>"socialized" health care, what could have been so attractive
>to want to make you leave?

Marrying Barbara Lamar, a Texan with a daughter then at university 
and an ailing mother and a then-fledgling tax law business in the 
USA. I certainly didn't come here for the (medicinal) waters.

What word might be preferable to "socialistic"? Egalitarian comes to 
mind. Commonwealth catches some of it. (Australia is formally a 
"Commonwealth," not a republic nor a monarchy, despite having another 
country's queen perched on top like a bizarre 19th century ornament.) 
I'd probably come up with something crisper if it weren't for this 
damnable brain-deadening Texan pollen-inflicted allergy...

Damien Broderick




From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:44:42 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:44:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Kevin wrote

> Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is
> what has caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place.
> People no longer saw nor cared what they were being
> charged because someone else was paying the bill so
> the market forces controlling costs were removed.
> It's the cost of BS we all pay. 

YES!  And do you know how in the United States all
that BS came about?  

In World War II the U.S. government in its wisdom
decided that it could do better than the free market
in distributing various good, e.g. gasoline. So instead
of (via tax monies) simply bidding up the price of
gas so as to keep the troops sufficiently provisioned,
an idiotic rationing system was employed, which was
not nearly so efficient.

At the same time, the government passed laws decreeing
certain wage and price controls.  (The last time our
ingenious government tried that was the 1973 "oil
embargo" event, so miscalled by people who fail
to realize that the higher prices necessitated by the
times would have rationed the gas infinitely better
than the "gas lines" and shortages that inevitably
occurred.

Naturally, such meddling in the market has unforeseen
consequences. Companies (especially those working in
the war-related industries) still had to reward success
and reward those employees who contributed the most.
But thanks to the new government regulations, they
couldn't simply be *paid* more.  So loopholes were
created---for example, the company could provide
"company funded insurance". These loopholes did
provide a sneaky way to attract and reward employees,
but at the sacrifice of some market inefficiency.

Far worse were the long term consequences. From then
on, medical "insurance" (which soon took on very un-
insurance type attributes) and other fringe benefits were
abetted by the government, which didn't tax those benefits.
And that's how it all started.

Then, seeing the spiraling medical costs (as the final consumers,
the end users, were separated from those who actually paid,
that is the insurance companies), and seeing what damage had
been done, do you suppose that a rollback of the extremely
damaging government regulations was considered?  NOT 
FOR A MOMENT!  It was indeed thought that the answer
was *more regulation*, more artificial ways to disengage
the end users of services from those who paid for them.

So the HMOs were invented. And each such step since has
resulted in a bigger mess, and more and more outrageous
and ridiculous medical prices and charges.

> For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to
> the ER at 3 am because she had a nosebleed that started at
> 9pm and hadn't stopped. We waited 3 hours, then saw
> a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a small
> tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for
> the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out
> of curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the
> 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was
> another $300 worth of supplies and such.

That is predictably what will happen without the discipline
of the market place.  How could the American government
as late as 1971 (!) have believed in price controls?  How
in the world as late as 2008 can people still reflexively 
reject market mechanisms and price signals?

> I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error
> and they said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical
> device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was
> supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which
> would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in
> insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the
> thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding
> was obviously gone.

If you told them later what you had done, they would have
been speechless with astonishment.  Why, they would
wonder, had you tried doing that?  After all, they would
have done it *for free*!

> I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue.
> If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more
> into medical school

It's enough to make me gag.  *Allowing* more into whatever.
And this in a supposedly free country.

> or  allowing  practicing nurses to  do more would be in
> order and help to drive some of these costs down.

Why?  To whose benefit (beside the remote tax payer, of
course) would such accrue?

> I think that the free market isn't working because the
> market is not free.

Exactly right.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:51:48 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:51:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
	<8CA65DCC17359C0-E2C-42DB@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <059701c899fd$fb380fb0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Alex writes

> Anywhere that there is an interface between two
> organisations which charge each other for a service
> or product, there is wastage.

That's an over-generalization. Some times a good
deal of harmony between organizations whose
separate actions make a good fit is achieved.

> This is true of any commercial bodies such as in a
> private health system and even in fully publicly
> funded systems such as a national health service.
> In the case of national services, this is usually done
> to bolster inadequate budgets, but also because
> many people in the system get bonuses of some
> kind which they try to maximise.

It all depends on what the incentives are in each
organization for each individual. The profit motive
does tend to naturally make private companies
more efficient than government ones, (though
every rule has exceptions, of course).

> There is always someone skimming off the cream
> at these interfaces and it is fully accepted.
> For some reason we don't like the idea of paying
> for someone else's health cover,

You mean, I may not like the government coming to
my door, and---essentially---holding a gun to my
head to extort money for someone else's health
care.  (I don't mind so much when they come by
extorting money for national defense, if it really is
true that the alternative would sooner or later be
a take-over by some even worse government.)

> Smokers being a prime example. But we have
> no problem paying for the CEO's new yacht
> and a box full of Cuban cigars.

No one forces you or anyone else to pay any
particular CEO what he or she gets. The stockholders
make those decisions (at least in principle) and often
they make dumb decisions. But no one is using force
(at least up to the point where the government/corporate
collusion isn't in effect).

Lee



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 05:02:59 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:02:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a really tiny human for a
mission to Mars.  I noted that the mass of a pressure vessel scales as the
cube of its linear dimension.  Well, here we have a young lady who is less
than a third my height and less than a tenth my mass.  So if we scaled the
spacecraft to her dimensions, the Mars-bound payload would be perhaps four
percent the mass required to send my grossly oversized ass:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html

She has such a sweet smile too, you hafta like her even before you know her.

Ahhhh Houston, aaahhh we have a solution...

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 05:26:11 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:26:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408233141.025a0f88@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804090526.m395QBl5000128@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> ... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> 
> At 09:18 PM 4/8/2008 -0700, Lee asked:
> 
> >...what could have been so attractive to want to make you leave?
> 
> Marrying Barbara Lamar, a Texan...

I and everyone here who knows your bride would certainly agree you made an
excellent choice.  Do pass along the message that her friends on ExI fondly
hopes she pops in occasionally with a post or two, even if just to say
hello. 

> ...an ailing mother and a then-fledgling tax law 
> business in the USA....

Oy, so sorry to hear of your allergies and Barbara's mother.

> I certainly didn't come here for the (medicinal) waters... Damien
Broderick

Captain Renault: What in heaven's name brought you to Texas? 
Damien: My health. I came to Texas for the waters. 
Captain Renault: The waters? What waters? We're in the desert. 
Damien: I was misinformed.

spike 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 05:33:49 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:33:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <907709.13368.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05b601c89a03$96905580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Hi Lee. Thanks for continuing this. 

Oh, not at all.  The pleasure is all mine.  Thank you.

> >As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
> >chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
> >One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
> >many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
> >on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.
> 
> I think isomorphism makes some quite specific assumptions
> about perception. I'm pointing this out now, and I think
> what I mean will become clearer later.

Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
two things having similarity even when there are no
perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist"
ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.

> > How could any entity, again the space alien, possibly navigate to
> > Earth if it did not have the ability to distinguish Jupiter and other
>> astronomical bodies from the Earth?  
> 
> Well - it was your idea to start comparing humans to this
> specific alien which had travelled specifically to Earth.
> I might argue that the conditions on the discussion
> determine the outcome. My point would be that there
> is nothing in reality to force the particular understanding
> of reality that we have. 

You had written before

> > > Well Jupiter is a human concept. Separable objects
> > > are human concepts. 

and I am rebutting that claim by pointing out that any alien
that we can imagine that would have the wherewithall to
navigate to Earth would also have, as you put it, "the
concept of Jupiter".  Now if all intelligent entities that
happen to cruise though the solar system must have
an idea of Jupiter, then that adds a lot to the credibility
of the notion that there is an objective thing out there
that we refer to by the name "Jupiter".

> > You and I are clearly
> > *referring* to different things.  I am referring to that great
> > gas thing out there that is about 1000 times the mass of the Earth.
> > You are doing what?  Perhaps referring to what is going on in
> > human brains?  I would call that (and refer to it) as "our concept
> > of Jupiter", or "our map of Jupiter", or "the impression that Jupiter
> > makes on us".  In each case, note that *I* am referring to the
> > gas giant.
> 
> It's a trivial point, but even when you think you're referring 'out there',
> what you're looking at is still in your head.

Well, that's not actually true in my own case. The problem is,
"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
nerve firings all the way down!    :-)

> > But the boundary between a glass on the table and the
> > table itself is objectively real---it is *not* a human manufactured
> > distinction.  All sorts of phenomena, take a wind storm, for 
> > example, separate the glass from the table quite easily, much 
> > more easily than the molecules of the table are separated from
> > each other.  This is why it makes sense and is objectively
> > correct for our distinctions to be made between "glass" and
> > "table" because in this case our distinctions do correspond to
> > actual, objective differences that are "out there".
> 
 > But this is all based on our particular, peculiar, level of perception.
> Those entities we call glass and table are themselves constructed
> from many smaller entities. Their molecular structure is constantly
> shifting.

That's all true.

> We have one specific macroscopic perspective, which
> articulates the glass as a temporally persisting identity
> in distinction from the table. Another being may well
> have a different one which doesn't perceive the "glass"
> at all, but perceives the molecules perpetually shifting
> their relations, and only trivially forming any temporary
> macroscopic objects.

I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily
derived being that successfully makes its way in the
world will recognize.

> ....Or it could experience time in a different way...or
> causation could appear very different to it, shattering
> notions of individuality whatsoever.

I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.

> Do you see the large point I'm making? I'm not talking
> about distinctions as shallow as realist vs antirealist,
> or a French word vs an English word, I'm saying that
> the nature of subjectivity is such that we cannot even
> know what other subjectivities look like.

Right, and it's even pointless IMO to talk about 
"subjectivities", even though, <sigh>, I suppose that
a few discussions really do require it. We progress
best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
to what is objective.

> We have to question our very most basic assumptions,

Well, that's always a good idea!

> because they have all been evolved for specific reasons,
> to help us survive in a very particular environment. And,
> unless I'm mistaken we share this basic 'object' world
> view with the other sentient beings on this planet because
> we all share a lot of history and biology. It's not something
> as simple as culture or humanity which has shaped this
> understanding of the world...our very beings are based
> on understanding the world in this way, of presenting a
> finite comprehensible picture which is generally coherent,
> so that we can actually make a fair stab at acting and
> surviving in the world.

But we would find the same "issues" on any extra-solar
planets as well, right? And why should beings that evolve
there suddenly be unable to perceive what seem to be
very concrete distinctions we've learned about?  As an
example, we didn't use to be able to "see" in the ultra-
violet or infrared, and it would not be the least
surprising if other-evolved creatures don't naturally
see the same wavelengths that we do. (We know that's
the case, of course, with many animals, e.g. bees.)

> But what we think is like a child's drawing.
> Our perceptions aren't a photograph, they're
> a surrealist sketch.

Right, but where we appear to differ is that I think that
we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
exactly what you are saying too. So:

We come back again to how much structure is *really*
"out there", and how much we happen to impose via
our perceptions and preconceptions. I certainly grant
that there is a certain amount of that, but in the 20th
century I think it was greatly exaggerated by many.
EP (Evolutionary Psychology, of course) is very
much a reaction aginst that exaggeration.

More later.

Lee



From moulton at moulton.com  Wed Apr  9 05:17:31 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:17:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <1207718251.4294.416.camel@hayek>


On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 19:33 -0400, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> But like others who cut and
> past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
> transhumanism with lots of mistakes.

As I was reading that I was reminded that if you do not write your own
history then someone will do it.  It might be a worthwhile project to
collect the various parts of early Extropian, transhumanist and related
history. 

Fred




From amara at amara.com  Wed Apr  9 05:39:19 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:39:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] A Small New Horizons Milestone
Message-ID: <p06230900c422053df920@[10.0.10.217]>

A word from the New Horizons mission principal investigator (Alan Stern) -

Today the spacecraft is 810 days from launch and 405 days from Jupiter
closest approach.  That is, the spacecraft has spent as many days
post-Jupiter as it took to get to Jupiter.

At the very end of May, New Horizons will be 25% of the way to Pluto in
days- so we are about to enter the long middle of the journey that will
last until early 2013. 2652 days to go to Pluto Encounter (2015).

"Vigilance is our watchword," he says.  :-)

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From xuenay at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 06:26:31 2008
From: xuenay at gmail.com (Kaj Sotala)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 09:26:31 +0300
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6a13bb8f0804082326m28de7ba0m69abf72990ead6b0@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/8/08, M1N3R <m1n3r2 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> which I consider the best-case scenarion for the future. Among a dozen
> thoughts I have now one question: what do you all know or think about the
> possible technological singularity. Some scientists state that such a large

This article of mine sums up my thoughts about the Singularity:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/whycare.html

See also:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/objections.html


-- 
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/ | http://xuenay.livejournal.com/

Organizations worth your time:
http://www.singinst.org/ | http://www.crnano.org/ | http://lifeboat.com/


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 08:01:14 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:01:14 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
> > the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
> > bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
> > funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of the
> > scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal profit
> > (it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but the
> > approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play when
> > someone catches wind of a marketable product.
> >
>
> ### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from private
> money? I used to think that due to the difficulty in owning basic research
> results there would be underproduction of such results in the absence of
> coerced funding but now I no longer believe it. Many rich people seek the
> approval of their peers too, which is why the Gates foundation is
> outspending the NIH on many of the most pressing health needs in the world.
> Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Hughes and dozens of lesser captains of
> industry gave more to science than most governments. If there were no taxing
> parasites feeding on capitalists, there would be so much money sloshing
> around and looking for a good cause that even FAI researchers would be
> swimming in it.

I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on it,
and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it? The main
purpose of taxation is to pay for that which the taxpayers consider
worthwhile but which the free market won't provide, or won't
efficiently and fairly provide. Charity is fickle and degrading; when
I'm given something I want it to be because I'm entitled to it.

> BTW, if we are talking about government funding of research, let's see what
> it gave us: The atomic bomb. Thermonuclear bomb. Weaponized anthrax. Napalm.
> V-gas. Tuskegee syphilis study. The International Space Station. The list is
> long but easy to summarize: Most government research spending goes towards
> destruction (weapons), or propaganda (ISS). Useful, peaceful basic research
> is an afterthought, comprising less than one percent of all spending. You
> can't reasonably speak about the great achievements of government research
> without devoting appropriate attention to the monumental failings.

A lot of government research spending has been into war-making
techniques, especially in the US and the Soviet Union. That's bad, but
it doesn't negate the fact that most of the outstanding scientific
discoveries of the past century have been funded by government,
usually directly but even if you take into account outstanding private
institutions such as Bell Labs, at least indirectly through the public
education system.

As for propaganda and the space program, so what? It's a tragedy that
the propaganda appeal of manned space flight wore off after the first
few moon landings. Do you see private entrepreneurs stepping in with a
few trillion to colonise Mars or the asteroids?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed Apr  9 08:11:11 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 01:11:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <8CA661D9A8E8D6E-C68-6BA@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<8CA661D9A8E8D6E-C68-6BA@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <81C4F3D1888549A89673124EE7C86DFE@GinaSony>

Thank you Alex - and for the laugh, I needed that! Yes, although I didn't need any extra reason to push me to work on animation projects in support of nanotechnologies and other emerging sciences (which I currently am), I will push harder and faster.... 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ablainey at aol.com 
  To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 9:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  Gina, sorry to hear the bad news. Keep your chin up (unless that that makes you dizzy! LOL, got to keep your humour!) stay positive and thanks for sharing.
  I imagine this will make you redouble your efforts.

  take care of yourself
  Alex


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com>
  To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
  Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 7:06
  Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  So dear friends you have been used to me posting updates about my husband James B. Lewis PhD who has bit of historical presence in our community with his "rational gamble" paper written in the Dora Kent case in regards to cryonics as well forming Nanocon early on and his work with the Foresight Institute and nano book editing. As you know in 04 he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, and he had two stem cell transplants, he is doing great! Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
  we may both be using this blog now to keep you informed of both of our health. By the way in case you don't know, I made the Dermal display animation and have been gunning for nanotech for oh I guess a decade now through my Nanogirl News list, Nanotechnology industries portal and my animation work (which I am very much focusing on right now). Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
  A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

  Your friend, 

  Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
  Nanotechnology Industries
  http://www.nanoindustries.com
  Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
  Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
  Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
  Health blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
  Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
  Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
  Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
  "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed Apr  9 08:28:41 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 01:28:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB7676DDD031446D934268DAADF1F18F@GinaSony>

Yes, I love life, it's just this darn biology! And while I have always held a high vision for nanotech or just simply our progress forward, I did know that at some point mother nature might very well knock on my door and come bearing a nasty little gift, I just hadn't thought that it would be this soon! Being as young as I am, I hadn't been giving myself any foreshadowing, no prep time if you will. But you just never know, age is no deterrent. So please extropes, be prepared, take your vits and your walks - because you never know. 
So I'm not tip top yet, I had my final infusion (Sunday) and I feel better from the effects of the actual infusion steroid, but I still can't see or walk straight (since march 22) when I move around - they say it could take a week, so I am hoping to see better improvements within the next few days. But it is a relief to come and talk amongst you all, so thank you for that. You guys are a great group of friends. 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:06 AM, Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:

  > Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's
  > quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it
  > here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is
  > usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com

  Life is a bitch. Or in Latin: life is a fucking bitch. I am so very sorry.

  For what I know, MS is not life threatening (not more than other
  chronic conditions), has a slow progress, can be kept under check, and
  we must hope that more effective therapies are found soon.

  Keep strong and write here more often!

  Best, G.
  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 11:48:04 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:48:04 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Yes, it's an extremely perverse use of the word "insurance" as
>  a euphemism for "national or tax-funded health care system".
>  (Hmm, I guess that is the phrase I should use since the "s"
>  word arouses sensitivities in many.)

Why, exactly? Because it's compulsory? There are all sorts of
commercial situations where (private) insurance is compulsory; for
example, if you are the owner of a unit in an apartment building.

> Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system of national,
>  tax-funded medical care, there will end up being bureaucrats
>  who make the hard decisions about who gets what expensive
>  treatments. Do you really expect the son of a senator to be
>  treated with the same lack of deference a typical semiretired
>  software engineer would be?  There is a record of a certain
>  baseball player---I forget who---who was put at the head of
>  the list for some state or federally funded medical treatment
>  a few years back. You'll never root out that kind of corruption.

I guess it's possible, but the same sort of thing can happen if you're
trying to book a restaurant table. In my personal experience over 16
years in the Australian public health system something like this has
happened once, when hospital management requested that a relative of a
famous person be reassessed after he was rejected for admission. He
was reassessed and rejected for admission again. That was the end of
it, apart from the anger of the clinicians involved at the perceived
interference by management in a clinical decision.

>  I say let the contracts be written, literal, and binding (and
>  strongly enforced by the government) between those who
>  legitimately want insurance for whatever they're afraid of.
>  And if you are unlucky enough to be born with a condition
>  that *predictably* at age 40 will start to require $100,000
>  or $10,000,000 treatments each month to overcome, well,
>  better then to have been of economic utility to other
>  people and have become rich.

This is where universal insurance has an advantage, even if it is
contracted out to a private insurer. The agreement is to insure the
entire population of citizens, come what may.

BTW, there aren't any treatments costing $10,000,000 a month that have
gone through any of the usual studies to show that they are of
benefit, since there is no incentive for anyone to do such studies.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 12:11:48 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:11:48 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
	<059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090511j77c00749kdf7afe580cee6707@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  > I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue.
>  > If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more
>  > into medical school
>
>
> It's enough to make me gag.  *Allowing* more into whatever.
>  And this in a supposedly free country.

The doctors have a vested interest, of course, in controlling their
numbers. They do this by convincing government, but more importantly
by convincing potential patients, that only those who have completed
training specially blessed by the medical profession are competent to
deliver medical care. In the jurisdiction where I live, for example,
it is not actually illegal for any person to perform surgery; it is
only illegal for that person to mislead the patient into thinking that
he is a doctor. But of course, only crazy people would let a
non-medico operate on them. The doctors thereby maintain a closed shop
through, essentially, very good advertising.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 12:29:05 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:29:05 +1000
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090529q46ef8c60lc04e820f16066d87@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  Yes, you ought to be safe here from such mindless suggestions.
>  I myself, for example, might choose to move somewhere else
>  for a better standard of living or for some other reason, yet
>  should that require that I not be free to criticize any aspects
>  of my new home (or any other thing, for that matter)?
>  Certainly not!
>
>  Still the question does pop up in people's minds, "After paying
>  those taxes all those years in Australia in exchange for, er,
>  "socialized" health care, what could have been so attractive
>  to want to make you leave?  To which you can very rightly
>  and justly say "None of your damn business".  That could
>  very well be my own answer if I relocated to London, say,
>  and then started criticizing certain aspects of life or the
>  government there.

Well, Damien has more right to offer criticisms than those of us who
have only had experience of one or other system. Anyone else out there
who has lived in the US as well as in another country who would like
to comment?





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From amara at amara.com  Wed Apr  9 12:55:54 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 06:55:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
Message-ID: <p06230900c4226c945164@[192.168.0.66]>

Stathis Papaioannou stathisp at gmail.com :
>Well, Damien has more right to offer criticisms than those of us who
>have only had experience of one or other system. Anyone else out there
>who has lived in the US as well as in another country who would like to
>comment?

I've lived in three (US, Germany, Italy), and I'm using a fourth
(Estonia). The last is where I'm traveling to Saturday because of the
the third, first, and other reasons. I've commented here (for example:
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-May/035815.html)
and to the wta-talk list too much about it, already however. If anyone
has a specific question, then I can answer after I return (21st).

Ciao,
Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 15:16:56 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 16:16:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804090816k74ad77c9x6fc77212f6b7a0a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
<snip>
>  This is where universal insurance has an advantage, even if it is
>  contracted out to a private insurer. The agreement is to insure the
>  entire population of citizens, come what may.
>
>  BTW, there aren't any treatments costing $10,000,000 a month that have
>  gone through any of the usual studies to show that they are of
>  benefit, since there is no incentive for anyone to do such studies.
>


Stathis - you are discussing this with completely the wrong attitude.

First, you have to accept and assimilate into the core of your being
that the US has the best of everything in the best of all possible
worlds. And *definitely* better than all these socialist countries
that are destroying themselves because they are not more like the US.

Got that? Now you can start discussing slight improvements (but with
no socialist tendencies) that might help the tiny, tiny sections of
the populace who are not already completely happy with the system.


BillK  ;)


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Apr  9 15:36:10 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:36:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <1207718251.4294.416.camel@hayek>
References: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>
	<1207718251.4294.416.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <20080409153612.LTTI13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 12:17 AM 4/9/2008, Fred wrote:

>On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 19:33 -0400, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> > But like others who cut and
> > past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
> > transhumanism with lots of mistakes.
>
>As I was reading that I was reminded that if you do not write your own
>history then someone will do it.  It might be a worthwhile project to
>collect the various parts of early Extropian, transhumanist and related
>history.

Much of this was compiled by ExI with the help of Mitch Porter.  I 
have an assistant researcher who has been scanning the environment 
for current material.  It is a big job to be sure.  But the only way 
that any of this can be meaningful is to have it in a number of 
books,  not just one.  And since some academics favor an aborted and 
bastardized version of history, it has to be presented in that venue as well.

It is all our responsibility.  And it is our responsibility to insist 
that organizations who put up FAQs and other material do not erase 
ExI, Max More, and the rest of us in order to promote their own 
versions of transhumanism.  1000 flowers blooming is lovely indeed, 
but they did come from a seed which was intentionally planted.

Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More, 
BFA, MS, MPhil
University Lecturer
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics
Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Apr  9 16:11:04 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:11:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <47FC3C71.10900@pobox.com>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
	<47FC3C71.10900@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <1207757562_105@s8.cableone.net>

At 08:48 PM 4/8/2008, Eliezer wrote:

snip

>http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/09/30/three-major-singularity-schools/

I don't see any significant differences in the three singularity 
schools.  It's like the differences between closely related 
religions, outsiders (or in my case a nominal insider) can't see tell 
them apart.

All anticipate a future very different from what we have today.

So do I.

Keith 



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 17:51:14 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:51:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090529q46ef8c60lc04e820f16066d87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090529q46ef8c60lc04e820f16066d87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804091051o5fd0a2c6y1e1e7d00a7585389@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:29 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, Damien has more right to offer criticisms than those of us who
> have only had experience of one or other system. Anyone else out there
> who has lived in the US as well as in another country who would like
> to comment?

I lived in New Zealand for seven years and I can say from our own
experiences in two different national healthcare systems that the NZ
system is greatly preferable to the US.  I gave birth to two children
there by cesareans, with difficult pregnancies.  My husband had
photorefractive keratectomy done there by one of the world's leading
eye surgeons who perfected the technique, who just happened to work in
Auckland.  His eyes were not "textbook" and needed a more complicated
procedure and he was thrilled by both the doctor's care and the
results.

My entire family benefited from the New Zealand system, which was in
the process of shifting during our time there (1993 - 2000) from a
completely public system to a private-public mix. We had opportunities
to use both systems and I can't say one was superior to the other,
except in the post-op childbirth area and that was because of very
specific public post-natal nursing issues, but I hear the public
birthing system has greatly improved in the decade since I used it.
To be fair, the problems were no worse than I'd encounter in the US
system and the cost was dramatically lower -- for instance, my
c-sections were one-tenth the cost the same procedure would cost in
the US and my husband's eye surgery was one-fifth.  This was back in
the late 90's.  I'm sure the cost discrepancy would be even larger
today.

Moreover, the NZ pre-natal and well child/pediatric care is second to
none, especially through their Plunket system of early childhood
health education and gatekeeper system.  Please note that the Plunket
society celebrated its centennial last year.  It is not run by the
government, but is a non-profit with close ties to the public health
system, working in cooperation with every hospital and doctor's office
in the country.  It's a great organization and one I wish were in
every country in the world:

http://www.plunket.org.nz//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plunket_Society

However, the public system helped by making children's doctor's visits
from birth to age 5 either free or extremely low cost.

The NZ system is extremely sensible in many ways, as are New
Zealanders themselves.  They have a gatekeeper system of community GPs
and nurses, who send you to a specialist when needed.  The specialists
were also very sensible in their use of expensive tests, technologies,
etc.  New Zealanders are by nature thrifty and ingenious.  They had to
be, living as they do at the bottom of the world and isolated for so
many years.  They also are not litigious.  I used to joke that you'd
need a video of your doctor shooting heroin before a procedure to sue
for malpractice.  These traits drive down costs.  There were times
when my selfish American self would say, "Why can't I have what I
want?"  But there was never a point where my health was jeopardized
because I didn't get exactly what I wanted.

My parents had occasion to use the NZ system as well while they
visited us.  And my blessedly libertarian parents were blown away by
the quality of healthcare.  To this day, my mother wishes she could
transplant our NZ GP and pediatrician to the US to take care of us
all.  It made them NZ system converts, to their chagrin.

If there are negative issues with health in NZ, it's because some
people don't utilize what exists for cultural/educational reasons, and
yes, this can skew to socio-economic stereotypes.  But I have yet to
see a country that bends over backwards more for the health of its
citizens and the good benefits certainly show.  New Zealanders are
some of the healthiest, most robust people I've met in my travels
around the world (BTW and IMHO, equal with Australians in this regard)
and they take the constructive benefits health gives them into the
rest of their lives.

PJ


From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  9 17:37:37 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:37:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society  ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> Rubber has a dialectic strength of around 500 volts/mil, and a density
> close to water.  [.]So as a rough estimate, the cable mass to hold up 100
> km of rubber insulation alone would be in the range of 2 million tons.

OK, so forget rubber, let's try something that can do a little bit better
than 500 volts/mil, something like Fused Quartz, it can do
5 x 107 volts/mil. Yes Quartz is about twice as dense as rubber,
but even so that should reduce the weight by a factor of 50,000 or so.

And I'm not saying a space elevator will ever be built, I'm just saying
that if one can be made then there is no reason not to use it to carry
power lines.

> He  might have been willing to consider Peter's fantastic vision
>[power satellites] , but Gerry [O'Neill] had shown that another
> fantasy, lunar industrialization, was a  prerequisite.

It currently costs about $20,000 to put one kilogram into geosynchronous
orbit, and no I can't give you a number, I don't know how much a power
satellite would weigh except that it would be many many kilograms. It
seems to me that for the idea to be practical a dramatically cheaper way
needs to be found to put massive things in that orbit, and the only two 
ways I know of are space elevators or lunar industrialization. If neither
of those can work then power satellites are Dead On Arrival.

You would know better than me but I was under the (perhaps incorrect)
impression that the L5 society was set up to promote ideas like O'Neill's.
And by the way you never should have changed the name, the L5 society
sounded cool.

  John K Clark




From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 18:49:04 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:49:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 7000 mpg (was EP and Peak Oil)
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804091149n7b2e4698lf99f501bb769dc43@mail.gmail.com>

If this has already been noted, then I apologize.,

Approximately 65% of US oil consumption goes for cars.  If the average
mileage was say 20 mpg, then 7000 mpg would reduce this to 1/350th.
Yippee! Problem solved.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/361/7-000-mpg-car-wins-eco-marathon.html

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr  9 21:17:43 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 16:17:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47FD3277.5050709@insightbb.com>

And here this guy is about 10 inches taller than her but could also be 
up for it. 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=513820&in_page_id=1811
With the right training these people could be heroes and boost the 
self-esteem of short people everywhere! (including myself at 5'3") It 
really is a shame that no one has seriously considered such a proposal. 
It makes an incredible amount of sense but NASA would rather worry about 
"offending" short folks. Have you ever considered getting some small 
people to buy in on this and then build a proposal to release to the media?


spike wrote:
>  
>
> Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a really tiny human for a
> mission to Mars.  I noted that the mass of a pressure vessel scales as the
> cube of its linear dimension.  Well, here we have a young lady who is less
> than a third my height and less than a tenth my mass.  So if we scaled the
> spacecraft to her dimensions, the Mars-bound payload would be perhaps four
> percent the mass required to send my grossly oversized ass:
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html
>
> She has such a sweet smile too, you hafta like her even before you know her.
>
> Ahhhh Houston, aaahhh we have a solution...
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  9 20:53:20 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:53:20 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <mailman.59.1207757588.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <946107.20274.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Lee Corbin wrote

>Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system
>of national,tax-funded medical care, there will end
>up being bureaucrats who make the hard decisions
>about who gets what expensive
>treatments. 

As someone working in the life insurance industry who
knows a little about claims, there's a corollary to
this:
In any system of market-based insurance fund for
health care, there will always be some pencil pusher
employed by the management to decline your perfectly
justified claim in order to boost corporate profits.

 To be fair, it's very difficult for any of us to save
up enough cash to cover the cost of the more expensive
surgeries or cancer treatments. In parts of the world
with medical facilities but few insurance schemes or
government health plans, people have to rely on the
family as mutual support network. 
 Government-funded schemes take our taxes and spread
them around according to some government planner's
ideas. Insurance schemes take customers, charge them a
premium according to their risk, turn away those most
likely to need very expensive treatment or exclude
their conditions that will need the expensive
treatment, and then fund the rest as best they can.
 Overall, we have to pool our funds and share out our
risks as best we can. With our current technology, we
can't afford EVERYTHING, so there has to be SOME
rationing in every system. 
 I'm sure some of our libertarian friends will tell
you the alternative of free-market pay-as-you go would
work, or that you can sue the insurance company if it
won't pay your claim. While in theory this works, in
the world we live in you need to pay the hospital
bills as best you can, as they don't extend credit
much. If you have cancer and can't get the cash
up-front for payment, then you may have to go without
treatment while the legal battle for your treatment
goes on, and you might die in the meantime. There are
plenty of examples of people in the US engaged in
legal battles for payment, which keep going up to
higher courts, all the while the poor schmuck who
needs the cash to rebuild their lives is stuck
suffering.

One of my biggest hopes for our transhuman future is
AI delivering expert medical advice cheaply and
biotech offering good treatments at low cost, so we
can afford really good health care for all with
minimal rationing.

Tom


      ___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference  

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  9 21:24:02 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:24:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight, Deregulating Stock  	Exchanges
In-Reply-To: <mailman.55.1207714253.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Lee's been on fine form, so I feel the need to reply
to another of his posts as well:

Lee wrote: "Is *every* society and *every*
civilization composed of historical type human beings
necessarily capable of self-regulation,
self-government, and almost unrestrained capitalism?
I ask that as a general sort of question which you and
other readers may or may not wish to explore. I myself
don't think so."

Well, historical type human beings are a diverse
bunch, but they *could* take to self-regulation and
self-government, and some form of market-based
economy.
Take my fine people, the British. Some people would
like to have you believe that this blessed people were
a Chosen People who developed the industrial
revolution and built a large empire, and settled
America to form a Nation guided by Providence,
Manifest Destiny and other Wooly-Minded Concepts with
Arbitrary Capitals. Some think there is something
special that led the British and their
English-speaking descendents to their place of
prominence.
 I take the opposite view. If the violence-loving
people from a bunch of rainy islands on the Northwest
of Europe could overcome much bigger and more populous
nations like France and Spain, and have their creole
of Romantic and Germanic languages become one of the
world's dominant languages, then there's hope for
everybody. If we could do it, there's no reason any
other culture/people/nation/arbitrary grouping of
humanity couldn't achieve a great deal too.



In response to Rafal, Lee also wrote: " Now it would
be nice if the U.S. today had an 1855 type small
federal government, and so could conduct up to 50
separate experiments towards the self-regulation in
stock markets you speak of. Even now, I would promote
step-by-step reductions in the oversight of the SEC
provided that the most knowledgeable people involved
would anticipate no debacle."

Rafal wrote:
" A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley, which imposed
huge
 costs that disproportionately afflict smaller
businesses, and thus serve to limit the competition
against entrenched large companies - exactly the
companies that lobby the government and hire former
SEC employees (the "revolving door" phenomenon)."

Well Lee, global competition is providing an example
of lighter market regulation. When Sarbanes-Oxley hit
US business (as Rafal mentioned), some businesses
based in both New York and London dropped their New
York listing. A couple of years ago, it was widely
trumpeted that London had overtaken New York as a
global financial centre as it had a mix of US and
European investment banks in a place with fairly light
touch regulation by global standards. With the current
"credit crunch", it remains to be seen where the
global financial centres are, as everybody's banking
businesses seem to be in trouble.
 In fact, the UK leads in low-regulation stock
markets.
To quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Investment_Market

"The AIM has also started to become an international
exchange, often due to its low-regulatory burden,
especially in relation to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act
(though only a quarter of AIM-listed companies would
qualify to list on a U.S. stock exchange even prior to
passage of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act[1]). As of December
2005 over 270 foreign companies had been admitted to
the Alternative Investment Market."

The AIM is so colossally low-regulatory that London's
becoming a haven for people seeking to raise funds to
go drill for oil,gold,copper or anything else that
requires highly speculative prospecting and in most
markets would require massive disclosures. It's also
been the home of a ?375million fraud, and a haven for
offshore financial vehicles. Time will tell if this
low-regulatory regime survives or if pressure from
other countries persuades the UK to tighten up.

As an aside, many stock markets are themselves
publicly quoted companies, and there is a process of
consolidation going on around the western world -
there's a bidding war for the London Stock Exchange,
and other stock exchanges/bourses are under bids at
the moment.

Tom


      ___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference  

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/


From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr  9 22:55:39 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:55:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] rice price
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080328232852.0243e6f0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>

Damien wrote:
> Uh-oh:
> LONDON and BANGKOK -- Rice prices jumped 30 per cent to an all-time
> high on Thursday, raising fears of fresh outbreaks of social unrest
> across Asia where the grain is a staple food for more than 2.5bn people.
> The increase came after Egypt, a leading exporter, imposed a formal
> ban on selling rice abroad to keep local prices down, and the
> Philippines announced plans for a major purchase of the grain in the
> international market to boost supplies. Global rice stocks are at
> their lowest since 1976.


It seems there are riots around the world because of rising 
prices. An Egyptian daily newspaper reports that 12,000 
people have been arrested for selling flour on 
the black market. Rice prices, meanwhile, rocketed 
from just over $200 per ton last October to $430 
at the end of March. The government responded on April 1 
by suspending rice exports for six months.
http://tinyurl.com/6k2lhu

Not to mention that corn (and tortillas) price jumps to record 
also because of biofuel.
http://tinyurl.com/5bz69f
http://tinyurl.com/35h5l4
http://tinyurl.com/54wsed









From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 10 00:43:28 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:43:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] space station video
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804100110.m3A1A9Dg004596@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ... On Behalf Of rafal at smigrodzki.org; ExI chat list
...
> 
> BTW, if we are talking about government funding of 
> research... The International Space Station...


Space station fans, check this kewall video:

http://www.tietronix.com/anim/MoviePlayer.asp?myMovie=movies/assembly640x360
.swf


spike



From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu Apr 10 00:58:15 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:58:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B7D1B242A49F4E38A639FD7533137877@GinaSony>

Thank you Stuart, this D link is very interesting, I am looking into it and am already taking a supplement. And yes as I am learning - there does seem to be a very clear latitudinal correlation (look at this map I found: http://www.dawnryan.com/Americana/MSMAP-1.jpg). In fact I moved here to Seattle in 99, beforehand I lived mostly in California, and I do spend a majority of my time doing animation work in front of the computer. I try to get walks in but I have to admit that I am very passionate and committed about what I do and when I get involved it is hard for me to tear myself away. But I will need to do so more often. 

The irony is I had thought it best for me to avoid the sun because I am very fair (as well as sensitive skin) and had severe burns (even second degree) when I was younger. I barely have any biological family history but I did find out there was a fatal melanoma which only validated the concerns. I should have however taken D to compensate, but that's hindsight and you know how that goes. So for me, it is a fine window of the proper dose of sunshine, not too much as to damage and not too little (which I now know). I'll just have to work on it. And about the proof, my husband seems more than willing to indulge the idea and I'm supposed to be getting my rest now boys! Today I am feeling better. The last two days I had some tenderness around my shoulders and neck, but I woke up today and that artifact is gone. I feel rather sluggish and my vision isn't squared up yet, so I'm still hanging in there for better results. They gave me my first infusion on Friday and the last on Sunday and they said it can take a week, so my body could still be just working it's way through the process. In the meantime we do have the other tests scheduled, the optic nerve test, the neck/spine mri, and the spinal tap will all be performed within the next few weeks. I'm glad for this, the sooner the better. Then I'll know where I stand and what I need to do. I'm hanging in there. 


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/


Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Avantguardian 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:40 PM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl



  --- Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:
  > Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and
  > cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
  > A direct link to my post is here:
  >
  http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

  I am sorry to hear about your condition, Gina. It may cheer you up to
  hear that science is making pretty good progress in understanding it.
  It seems to be far more environmental than genetic although some
  genetic backgrounds such as the eskimos are very resistant to it. The
  biggest buzz in the medical journals lately is the link between MS
  progression and vitamin D deficiency caused by living in high latitudes
  and/or dietary insufficiency. Living in the Seattle area as you do, it
  would probably benefit you to get some sunlight or UV B action going
  on. If you can't relocate southward than maybe tanning booths are a
  doable alternative. In any case summer is coming so try and soak up
  whatever sun you can. I expect you to post bikini photos as proof that
  you are following my advice. ;-) Also rituxamab (generic for Rituxan)
  has been showing some preliminary promise as a treatment, but I'll
  leave recommendations for drugs per se to your doctor.


  Stuart LaForge
  alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

  "Life is the sum of all your choices."  
  Albert Camus


        ____________________________________________________________________________________
  You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 10 01:37:45 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:37:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 7000 mpg (was EP and Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40804091149n7b2e4698lf99f501bb769dc43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804100204.m3A24RIi002008@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> Jeff Davis
> Subject: [ExI] 7000 mpg (was EP and Peak Oil)
...
> 
> http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/361/7-000-mpg-car-wins-eco
> -marathon.html
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis

Jeff these kinds of engineering demonstrations are good for focussing
attention on what it is we need to give up, or what we need to do in order
to have extremely energy efficient transportation.  It really isn't all that
hard to do.  We would need to move away from the traditional pneumatic tire
that has been with us for over a century, but consider the conditions under
which that style of tire became popular: most roads were rough.  Now we have
the technology to make roads smooth, and keep them that way.  So we would go
to smaller diameter and narrower solid tires, with the contact patch made of
about a cm ring of polyurethane for instance.  Polyurethane was used for
skateboard wheels in our misspent youth, because they have low rolling
resistance in that critical application.  We would give up some smoothness
for lowering rolling resistance, which is why we would need to compensate by
making the roads smoother.

We would give up high speeds and hard acceleration, but we can live without
that.  If the car doesn't accelerate hard, it doesn't need to have a lot of
structural strength to withstand engine torque, which saves weight.  If it
doesn't need to deal with potholes, the suspension travel can be very short,
saving more energy.  If it can be low to the ground, giving up some
visibility, it minimizes frontal area, which saves wind resistance.  If we
have a single-seater, it can be very narrow, again saving weight.  With
those design sacrifices, I can imagine single-seat ape haulers getting 1000
mpg, and still be as fast as a bicycle (assuming a non-athlete cyclist,
being as a good athlete can often outrun traffic even with our V8s under
some conditions.) 

We can do all this.  There is some pain, but it is not fatal.

spike


 





From amara at amara.com  Thu Apr 10 02:36:21 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:36:21 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Performance enhancing drugs reach academia
Message-ID: <p06230902c4232d5e7da3@[192.168.0.66]>

Don't miss the comments attached to the article and this remarkable quote too:

"As a professional, it is my duty to use my resources to the greatest
benefit of humanity. If 'enhancers' can contribute to this humane
service, it is my duty to do so."

Performance enhancing drugs reach academia

http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2008/04/09/performance-enhancing-drugs-reach-academia


By John Timmer | Published: April 09, 2008 - 12:23PM CT

The sports world has been rocked by repeated doping scandals as athletes
have availed themselves of sophisticated formulations of steroids,
stimulants, and other drugs to get any edge they can in the face of
fierce competition. In an era of tight research budgets and journals
that don't even review the vast majority of manuscripts they receive,
competition in the academic world can seem equally fierce. If drugs
exist that increase focus or reduce anxiety, they could certainly give
an edge to people in the research community, and vague talk of their use
by academics has apparently become common enough to spawn an elaborate
April Fool's joke: the NIH-sponsored World Anti-Brain Doping Agency.

Beyond the jokes, how real is the problem? It's hard to tell, but
Nature, spurred by a commentary on the topic that appeared in its pages
in December, took a stab at finding out. They commissioned an informal
internet survey, open to the global scientific community, that surveyed
the use of a number of drugs that enhance mental performance. You may
insert various caveats about a self-selected survey population here.

The group of over 1,400 respondents were heavily biased towards US-based
researchers, who accounted for 70 percent of the results; the next
highest nation only registered as six percent of the survey population.
Those responding were widely spread across the scientific community;
three different fields registered in the teens, and the largest category
was other at 35 percent. Age was also broadly distributed. Although the
peak decade, 26 to 35, accounted for 34 percent of the responses, those
55 to 65 had a significant presence in the survey population.

Almost 35 percent of them have taken Ritalin, Provigil, or beta
blockers, and 60 percent of those were taking the drugs specifically for
improving mental capacity instead of medical reasons. The numbers varied
a bit among the age categories, but there was no real trend; those over
55 were about as likely to use them as those under 35. Ritalin was the
most popular drug, but a number of respondents had sampled more than
one. The vast majority took them for improving memory or concentration,
and the "other" response to that question handily beat combatting
jetlag, which accounted for a small fraction of the responses. Nearly
half who used the drugs took them daily or weekly, while half reported
unpleasant side effects (the overlap between the two isn't clear).

There are a number of reasons to view this phenomenon as something a bit
different from athletic doping. Seminars aren't really a form of
competition, yet they can still be crippled by a case of jetlag or stage
fright that a one-time dose of these drugs could reduce or eliminate. At
least one stimulant that has significant effects on behavior-caffeine-is
already widely used and abused by the scientific community, making the
step up to more potent drugs a small one. There's also an altruistic
motivation that can be hard to spot in the athletic world. Nature quotes
one researcher as saying, "As a professional, it is my duty to use my
resources to the greatest benefit of humanity. If 'enhancers' can
contribute to this humane service, it is my duty to do so."

Nevertheless, it gets tough to draw sharp lines that separate the
altruistic, innocuous, and selfish reasons for turning to these drugs.
Like other areas of society, however, the academic community will have
to decide what it means to achieve success in part through chemical
assistance, and whether that somehow alters the equations the research
field is governed by.

The survey results will be made available once the article goes live.

Nature, 2008. DOI: 10.1038/4501157a and 10.1038/452674a.


-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  9 19:29:46 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:29:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Response
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS199E5F48DB4F7343AF56F8EED0@phx.gbl>

My apologies for raising an already discussed topic, I had no time yesterday to take a look. Actually, I'm just starting out with several ideas which I came through during random searches on the internet. Among these were the one raised yesterday. Since I saw the film Terminator at a very young age I've been interested in cybernetics and, as it is today, bionics, which I intend to study at university next year. And yes, I'm from Hungary. Someone else from there? It is just so hard to find people who accept or even have a faint notion about transhumanist ideas. Is there a place, a club or something which shares these thoughts and in Hungary (maybe in Budapest?). 

Thomas Pardy
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From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  9 19:56:56 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:56:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] BIONICS: Collective Consciousness
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS31B90C63AFE460C1CF8828EED0@phx.gbl>

Asimov has been mentioned recently. Now, in his book Foundation and Earth he proposes a most interesting idea for a Second Galactic Empire (Galaxia if I remember well). This entails a collective consciousness of humanity on a galactic basis. Sci-fi goes so far. Here comes a possible future. So many of my acquaintances are afraid of losing individuality due to the development and 'government oppression' as some say... Really? Actually, I suppose it would be plausible to have some auxiliary core installed and leave the brain read-only. We have the internet, a good beginning for a collective 'overmind'. What if we just connected ourselves directly to the internet enabling us to share thoughts, on a more advanced level, even feelings? Technological singularity might be due to the work of a human network of minds (like cells in our brain), in my opinion. Then we, humanity, would be able to create the unthinkable and this has nothing to do with an end. Or yes, it is an end of what we have now and a new beginning. I love great ideas like democracy, communism or the European Union (yeah, right I'm young enough to do so :D). However, externally solving the issues our nature holds is impossible (it is aggression I mean and hatred etc.) As I see and experience it, most conflicts are due to misunderstanding or conflicting ideas (on a one-on-one basis, that is). To have each of us understand the others might solve this issue, right? (And here comes a possible artificial intelligence enhancement. Actually there is a natural increase in brain capacity as I gather). I'd be most happy to live in a world where there is no language, no unnecessary writing as thoughts are transferred directly if need be. And I still have so many questions and ideas to share but must go now. Hope you'll find this interesting.

Thomas Pardy (M1N3R)
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 06:43:03 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 23:43:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:37 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

snip
>
>  OK, so forget rubber, let's try something that can do a little bit better
>  than 500 volts/mil, something like Fused Quartz, it can do
>  5 x 107 volts/mil. Yes Quartz is about twice as dense as rubber,
>  but even so that should reduce the weight by a factor of 50,000 or so.

Can you cite the source for this remarkable number?

>  And I'm not saying a space elevator will ever be built, I'm just saying
>  that if one can be made then there is no reason not to use it to carry
>  power lines.

Long as you need power near the equator and the loses in 22,000 miles
of wires are not more than microwave transmission.

>  > He  might have been willing to consider Peter's fantastic vision
>  >[power satellites] , but Gerry [O'Neill] had shown that another
>
> > fantasy, lunar industrialization, was a  prerequisite.
>
>  It currently costs about $20,000 to put one kilogram into geosynchronous
>  orbit, and no I can't give you a number, I don't know how much a power
>  satellite would weigh except that it would be many many kilograms.

Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000 metric
tons for 5 GW.

>  It
>  seems to me that for the idea to be practical a dramatically cheaper way
>  needs to be found to put massive things in that orbit, and the only two
>  ways I know of are space elevators or lunar industrialization. If neither
>  of those can work then power satellites are Dead On Arrival.

I just finished working out the numbers for using 200 times reusable
rockets about twice the size of a Saturn V.  To my surprise the energy
payback works out to 15 days and it takes 3 power sats to provide the
propellants.  Now if we can get the cost of the rockets down to a
reasonable number that might work.  Incidentally, the best guess for
the space elevator is only a dollar a kg for lift energy, but a
hundred dollars a kg for capital cost.

I have not yet worked out the numbers for laser launch.

>  You would know better than me but I was under the (perhaps incorrect)
>  impression that the L5 society was set up to promote ideas like O'Neill's.

You are exactly correct.

>  And by the way you never should have changed the name, the L5 society
>  sounded cool.

It wasn't my idea.

Keith Henson


From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 10 09:52:16 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <169076.37511.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee:

>Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
>a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
>two things having similarity even when there are no
>perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
>are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist" 
>ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
>can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
>even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.

I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving what something looks like outside of perception. I predict you'll disagree with this, but I stick to my guns that for there to be similarity (or even definable qualities) of "somethings" you need to have a specific perspective from which you are looking at them. I don't think we can sensibly talk about how something appears when no one is looking at it.

>and I am rebutting that claim (that Jupiter is a human concept)
>by pointing out that any alien
>that we can imagine that would have the wherewithall to
>navigate to Earth would also have, as you put it, "the
>concept of Jupiter".  Now if all intelligent entities that
>happen to cruise though the solar system must have
>an idea of Jupiter, then that adds a lot to the credibility
>of the notion that there is an objective thing out there
>that we refer to by the name "Jupiter".

Okay - I think here, we're actually confusing each other. By saying Jupiter is a human concept, I didn't mean that other non-humans couldn't have a similar one. I actually meant that it's a precisely defined concept with specific boundaries and qualities attached - as in the cat example last time, there is no precise "Jupiter-object" in reality - it's a useful concept, and aliens may well articulate their experience of reality into a very similar concept...but there's no precise Jupiter out there, because reality doesn't have the kind of precisely delineated objects our language imputes. Th real problem is that the more precisel;y we try to define our words and concepts, the more slippery reality becomes. This is <i>not</i> to say there's not something that correlates with the word. As I've said before, I'm neither realist nor anti-realist. I think the binary involved here doesn't do justice.

But, this discussion of Jupiter I think is taking us further and further away from the initial issue, which was of Napoleon - and I think it's here that my point is much more useful (to be frank, in regards to something like Jupiter it's really rather a trivial point). What have you to say in this regard?

>The problem is,
>"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
>and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
>to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
>on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
>that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
>The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
>way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
>wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
>that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
>(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
>nerve firings all the way down!    :-)

I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and Jupiter become part of a single system. While admitting the utility of it, I disagree with the skin-barrier of identity (this is probably clear by now). I don't claim to draw any distinct boundaries between the observer and observed. (This is also probably by now apparent)

>I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
>more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
>same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
>not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
>recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
>say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
>of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily 
>derived being that successfully makes its way in the
>world will recognize.

>I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
>be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.

Okay. I'll wait for you to offer either an argument or some evidence for why this is the case ;) (Still though, for as long as we're talking about other subjectivities note that this makes no real inroad into the question of objective identities/properties)

>We progress
>best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>to what is objective.

Can you offer a means for doing this?

>But we would find the same "issues" on any extra-solar
>planets as well, right? 

Not necessarily. And planets aren't the only source for intelligence to develop (at a fairly extreme - though not the most extreme - point, take Boltzmann Brains as an example)

>where we appear to differ is that I think that
>we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
>of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
>All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
>(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
>to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
>exactly what you are saying too. So:

Hmm, not necessarily. I'm saying we've developed a particular kind of awareness/conceptualisation which happens to have worked. The fact that everything in the "Earth" system has roughly the same kind of objective concept-structure would be pretty much determined by our evolutionary lineage, and our interpdependent integration as a system.

Mike








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From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 10 11:07:09 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)
Message-ID: <889128.18948.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've been thinking more about this, and I think there is quite a deep misunderstanding between us that reflects a comment someone else made a while back - you're talking about ontology, whereas I'm talking about epistemology. This is why I keep trying to shake off the 'realist-antirealist' boxes, because they're irrelevant to what I'm talking about. I'm not saying (to continue the example) there's no such 'thing' as Jupiter...there is probably 'something' which correlates to the word; however, that something does not <i>equate</i> with the word. This is to say, our language characterises objects as clearly delineated, persistent, and with a definite independent identity. I claim that in "reality" (to whatever extent we wish to use this term) things are simply a lot more fuzzy than this. And, in terms of something like "Napoleon", all we have is a word...the "reality" of Napoleon depends entirely on how we choose to define personhood, and precisely the
 problem is that we don't have a specific definiton of the word so everyone chooses to define it however they like. Therefore, the question of whether Napoleon <i>actually</i> still exists or not is unanswerable, at least until we have done some very precise work in defining what we mean by the term "the person Napoleon".

Secondly, I'd wish to withdraw from this emphasis on 'other' subjectivities such as aliens...such talk is purely conjectural. My main point about the relevance of concepts such as Jupiter and ex American presidents, was that we should be learning to live within our own subjectivity, not constantly striving to see outside of it (for such is impossible and leads only to enormous confusion). Trying to speculate as to what aliens think is just as impossible and useless. What I see and feel, my world, is where I should be living, not in some speculative "objective" reality which I only have inferrential access to. The nature of objects 'out there' really isn't that important...it's what happens with the objects 'in here' which makes all the difference, and this is all I will ever know about anyway.

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Miller <ain_ani at yahoo.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:52:16 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood

Lee:

>Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
>a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
>two things having similarity even when there are no
>perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
>are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist" 
>ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
>can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
>even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.

I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving what something looks like outside of perception. I predict you'll disagree with this, but I stick to my guns that for there to be similarity (or even definable qualities) of "somethings" you need to have a specific perspective from which you are looking at them. I don't think we can sensibly talk about how something appears when no one is looking at it.

>and I am rebutting that claim (that Jupiter is a human concept)
>by pointing out that any alien
>that we can imagine that would have the wherewithall to
>navigate to Earth would also have, as you put it, "the
>concept of Jupiter".  Now if all intelligent entities that
>happen to cruise though the solar system must have
>an idea of Jupiter, then that adds a lot to the credibility
>of the notion that there is an objective thing out there
>that we refer to by the name "Jupiter".

Okay - I think here, we're actually confusing each other. By saying Jupiter is a human concept, I didn't mean that other non-humans couldn't have a similar one. I actually meant that it's a precisely defined concept with specific boundaries and qualities attached - as in the cat example last time, there is no precise "Jupiter-object" in reality - it's a useful concept, and aliens may well articulate their experience of reality into a very similar concept...but there's no precise Jupiter out there, because reality doesn't have the kind of precisely delineated objects our language imputes. Th real problem is that the more precisel;y we try to define our words and concepts, the more slippery reality becomes. This is <i>not</i> to say there's not something that correlates with the word. As I've said before, I'm neither realist nor anti-realist. I think the binary involved here doesn't do justice.

But, this discussion of Jupiter I think is taking us further and further away from the initial issue, which was of Napoleon - and I think it's here that my point is much more useful (to be frank, in regards to something like Jupiter it's really rather a trivial point). What have you to say in this regard?

>The problem is,
>"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
>and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
>to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
>on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
>that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
>The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
>way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
>wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
>that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
>(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
>nerve firings all the way down!    :-)

I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and Jupiter become part of a single system. While admitting the utility of it, I disagree with the skin-barrier of identity (this is probably clear by now). I don't claim to draw any distinct boundaries between the observer and observed. (This is also probably by now apparent)

>I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
>more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
>same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
>not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
>recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
>say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
>of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily 
>derived being that successfully makes its way in the
>world will recognize.

>I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
>be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.

Okay. I'll wait for you to offer either an argument or some evidence for why this is the case ;) (Still though, for as long as we're talking about other subjectivities note that this makes no real inroad into the question of objective identities/properties)

>We progress
>best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>to what is objective.

Can you offer a means for doing this?

>But we would find the same "issues" on any extra-solar
>planets as well, right? 

Not necessarily. And planets aren't the only source for intelligence to develop (at a fairly extreme - though not the most extreme - point, take Boltzmann Brains as an example)

>where we appear to differ is that I think that
>we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
>of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
>All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
>(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
>to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
>exactly what you are saying too. So:

Hmm, not necessarily. I'm saying we've developed a particular kind of awareness/conceptualisation which happens to have worked. The fact that everything in the "Earth" system has roughly the same kind of objective concept-structure would be pretty much determined by our evolutionary lineage, and our interpdependent integration as a system.

Mike








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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 11:56:59 2008
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:56:59 -0300
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
References: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <00a901c89b01$fcb91640$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>

Spike> Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a really tiny 
human for a
> mission to Mars.  I noted that the mass of a pressure vessel scales as the
> cube of its linear dimension.  Well, here we have a young lady who is less
> than a third my height and less than a tenth my mass.  So if we scaled the
> spacecraft to her dimensions, the Mars-bound payload would be perhaps four
> percent the mass required to send my grossly oversized ass:
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html


We should not be advocating these kind of solutions to compensate for our 
poor chemical rockets. A trip to Mars should be atomic or ionic.



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 14:40:53 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:40:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] healing clays hold promise against infection and disease
Message-ID: <2d6187670804100740s54f0134dp59c74c8233da476b@mail.gmail.com>

http://biodesign.asu.edu/news/healing-clays-hold-promise-in-fight-against-mrsa-superbug-infections-and-disease


"Healing clays" hold promise in fight against MRSA superbug infections and
disease

NEW ORLEANS ? Mud may be coming to a medicine cabinet or pharmacy near you.
Scientists from Arizona State University report that minerals from clay
promise could provide inexpensive, highly-effective antimicrobials to fight
methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) infections that are
moving out of health care settings and into the community. These "superbugs"
are increasingly resistant to multiple antibiotics and cause thousands of
deaths each year.

Unlike conventional antibiotics routinely administered by injection or
pills, the so-called "healing clays" could be applied as rub-on creams or
ointments to keep MRSA infections from spreading, according to a research
duo from ASU's Biodesign Institute and College of Liberal Arts and Sciences.
The clays also show promise against a wide range of other harmful bacteria,
including those that cause skin infections and food poisoning, they add.
Their study, one of the first to explore the antimicrobial activity of
natural clays in detail, was presented at the 235th national meeting of the
American Chemical Society, the world's largest scientific society.

Clays have been used for thousands of years as a remedy for infected wounds,
indigestion, and other health problems, either by applying clay to the skin
or eating it. Cleopatra's famed beauty has been credited to her use of clay
facials. Today, clays are still commonly used at health spas in the form of
facials and mud baths. However, armed with new investigative tools,
researchers Shelley Haydel and Lynda Williams are putting the clays to the
test, scientifically.

"Clays are little chemical drug-stores in a packet," says study co-leader
Williams, a geochemist in the School of Earth and Space Exploration. "They
contain literally hundreds of

In their latest study, funded by the National Institutes of Health,
Williams, Haydel and their colleagues collected more than 20 different clay
samples from around the world to investigate their antibacterial activities.
Study co-leader Haydel, a microbiologist in ASU's School of Life Sciences
and a researcher in ASU's Biodesign Institute, tested each of the clays
against bacteria known to cause human diseases. These bacteria include MRSA,
*Mycobacterium ulcerans* (a microbe related to the tuberculosis bacterium
that causes a flesh-eating disease known as Buruli ulcer), as well as *E.
coli* and *Salmonella* (which cause food poisoning).

The researchers identified at least two clays from the United States that
kill or significantly reduce the growth of these bacteria, in addition to
the one French green clay that launched their research in 2005. The
antibacterial effect of the French clay was documented this year in
the *Journal
of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy*, with co-author Christine Remenih.

Identifying what specific compounds make these clays effective antibacterial
agents presents a challenge, researchers say, but they credit their combined
perspectives, coming as they do from two very different scientific
disciplines, for their successes. Haydel and Williams note too that tools
like electron and ion microscopy might also reveal how these antibacterial
clays may interact with the cell membranes or cellular physiology of the
bacteria to kill.

Williams and Haydel continue to test new clay samples from around the world
to determine their germ-fighting potential. They hope that the more
promising clays will be developed into a skin ointment or pill to fight a
variety of bacterial infections or possibly as an agricultural wash to
prevent food poisoning. Several companies have expressed interest in forming
partnerships to develop the clays as antimicrobial agents, the scientists
say.

But ordinary mud can contain dangerous bacteria as well as toxic minerals
like arsenic and mercury, the researchers point out. Until healing clays are
developed that are scientifically proven, which could take several years,
they say that hand washing and other proper hygiene techniques may be the
best bet for keeping MRSA and other harmful bacteria at bay.
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 10 14:42:08 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:42:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <00a901c89b01$fcb91640$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <200804101509.m3AF8n7q000247@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> Henrique Moraes Machado
> Subject: Re: [ExI] tiny martians again
> 
> Spike> Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a 
> really tiny human for a mission to Mars...
> > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html
> 
> We should not be advocating these kind of solutions to 
> compensate for our poor chemical rockets. A trip to Mars 
> should be atomic or ionic.

Of course, but the same advantages to sending tiny people still apply,
regardless of which propulsion system is used.

spike







From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr 10 16:07:27 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:07:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>

Me:
>>Fused Quartz, it can do  5 x 10^7 volts/mil.

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> Can you cite the source for this remarkable number?

I too thought the number was remarkable, it was larger than even I thought
it would be so I decided I wouldn't use it unless I could find 3 independent
references to it, I could. See:

http://www.proscitech.com/cataloguex/get_notes.asp?fusedquartz    or

http://www.mtixtl.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=591  or

http://www.qtubing.com/index/tech_data

By the way, I found one reference that said Muscovite Mica could do even
better but I couldn't find any conformation so I can't swear to it.

Me:
>> I don't know how much a power satellite would weigh

You:
>Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000
>metric tons for 5 GW.

That figure is indeed very easy to look up but it is much less easy to have
any confidence in it. Even with mundane things like civilian airliners  the
early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually proves
to be far too optimistic, and far more people worked on the jet than worked
on the design of a power satellite. I don't think anyone really knows what
the damn thing would weigh except to say it would be very very heavy.

  John K Clark










From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 16:51:38 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:51:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804101509.m3AF8n7q000247@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <00a901c89b01$fcb91640$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<200804101509.m3AF8n7q000247@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804100951p55fd7f63xe065fc2f3775090b@mail.gmail.com>

In Arizona there is a "little person" who is a local celebrity actor but
also has a day job as an engineer.  His wife passed away a few years ago so
maybe we should get these two together.  Later, we can get them enrolled
into the NASA astronaut program...  I once had a beautiful co-worker from
the former East Germany and she was convinced that dwarfs had smaller brains
and were generally the intellectual inferiors of "full-sized" people. LOL
It was hard to disagree with a woman who was so physically stunning that
looking at her was like staring into the sun.  But beauty does not always
come with common sense and intellectual curiosity.

I just don't like the idea of genetically engineered astronauts/space
colonists who are designed from birth to be on the very small side.  If the
idea of "little person" astronauts caught on I could see genetic engineering
being used to create the next generation of space explorers and colonists.
And then we might develop a schism between the big people of Earth and the
little folks of space.  A war could break out and the little people might
win and then become our cruel overlords (taunting us constantly with, "how
is the weather up there?" jokes...).  It all sounds like the plot to some
1950's science fiction novel (but in fairly recent SF they show extremely
tall and slender humans living in space).  In the sf classic, "Starship
Haiku," by S.P. Somtow, the author shows a future human society where
everyone has been reduced in size by genetic engineering in an effort to
relieve the strain on available resources.  It's a fun read (Somtow is a
very talented writer).

I think America and the rest of the world likes to see their astronauts
being full-sized, despite the extra costs involved.  But for good measure we
could certainly have one or two Mars mission crew members, etc., who are
little people.  Mike Meyers proved in his Austin Powers films that dwarves
are still very beloved in the popular culture.  NASA is definitely
interested in having good public relations and very lovable astronauts the
public will root for during a long space mission is a great idea.

Growing up in Alaska, I knew fairly well two different guys who were little
people.  They were smart, kind-hearted, and hard-working men who had a
"can-do" attitude.  I say it is time for a little person astronaut!  Hey,
Spike, let's start an organization!

John Grigg  : )
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From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr 10 17:31:40 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:31:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> I just finished working out the numbers for using 200 times reusable
> rockets about twice the size of a Saturn V.  To my surprise the energy
> payback works out to 15 days and it takes 3 power sats to provide the
> propellants.

That is a perfect example of a statistic that may be true but is totally
irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost to get into
geosynchronous orbit. Right now just the launch costs would be close
to a trillion dollars per satellite, that's just to put it in the proper 
place, and that's not counting on the fact that then you've still got to
actually build the thing. You're going to have to figure out a way that 
is one hell of a lot cheaper than that and I don't see how ground 
launch from Earth can do it.

And just how "reusable" is this giant rocket going to be? Are you going to
carry a heavy heat shield all the way up to geosynchronous orbit and then
carry it all the way back down to earth again? Maybe I just get paranoid
when I hear the word "reusable"; the Space Shuttle was originally
supposed to be reusable every 2 weeks but that turned into a joke.

 John K Clark






From jef at jefallbright.net  Thu Apr 10 14:54:28 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:54:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)
In-Reply-To: <889128.18948.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <889128.18948.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804100754g3e0ca830x41671658012484e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:07 AM, Michael Miller <ain_ani at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been thinking more about this, and I think there is quite a deep
> misunderstanding between us that reflects a comment someone else made a
> while back - you're talking about ontology, whereas I'm talking about
> epistemology. This is why I keep trying to shake off the
> 'realist-antirealist' boxes, because they're irrelevant to what I'm talking
> about.

[Jumping back into this sandbox for just a moment.]

Michael, you're making a very important point -- crucial to
increasingly effective reasoning involving issues of meaning (value)
-- but your thinking strikes me as lacking an additional layer that
makes the difference between purely philosophical navel-gazing and
pragmatic modeling as a basis for effective decision-making.  Put
[too] simply, it is essential that while every agent's model of
"reality" is entirely subjective, this in no way entails
arbitrariness.  A metaphor that works for me is that we (as subjective
agents) are like the leaves of a tree of increasing possibility
connected by branches of increasing probability.  The root of that
tree represents the "reality" that we can never know.

To grasp this is to have a pragmatic (rather than "True")
understanding of the is/ought problem, and the crucial basis for
increasing agreement as to what must be considered increasingly
"right" or "moral" as we model the branches of that increasingly
objective tree supporting our increasing subjective explorations of
possibility-space.

Apologies in advance for what might appear to be excessively abstract.
 For the record, I abhor vague mysticism, relativism (in the strong
sense), and postmodernist mental masturbation.  So, you can infer that
I mean something other than what might appear to fit such categories.
It's just that this medium of discussion is miserably poor for
conveying complex contexts.

    "The purpose of abstracting is not to be vague,
     but to create a new semantic level in which one
     can be absolutely precise."

     - Edsger W. Dijkstra, _The Humble Programmer_

- Jef


From jef at jefallbright.net  Thu Apr 10 18:10:58 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:10:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Metcalfe's Law is Wrong
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804101110p1330fc00x9e5f8bad1540534@mail.gmail.com>

A particularly lucid article on characterizing growth value of
networks.  In particular, it argues against the n^2 of Metcalfe's Law
(which fueled much of the overheated Internet hype of the late '90s )
in favor of n log(n) which, like Zipf's Law, better characterizes the
"long tail" distribution we see in networks of nodes of unequal
influence.

<http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/4109>

- Jef


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 10 19:10:43 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:10:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410140328.024c3c88@satx.rr.com>

The common view on this list seems to be that such humans are fools 
suckered by primitive religious conviction that they'll get lots of 
sex after death (if they are not actually retarded or obedient 
children). The evidence in this piece suggests otherwise:

<http://indianmuslims.in/defying-the-myths-the-rational-educated-secular-prosperous-suicide-bomber/>

one link therefrom:

<http://www.smh.com.au/news/tv-reviews/suicide-bombers--a-psychological-investigation/2006/03/27/1143330977988.html>

A grab from the top link:

<Does Al-Qaeda conform to the myths?

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812238087/ref=nosim/0sil8>Marc 
Sageman's findings from biographical material from more than 400 
al-Qaida-affiliated terrorists (Sageman, Marc Terror Networks 
(Philadelphia, Penn.: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2004).

* The vast majority of terrorists in the sample came from solid 
middle class backgrounds, and its leadership came from the upper class.

* Only 13 percent of terrorists went to madrassahs, and this practice 
was specific to Southeast Asia, where two school masters, Abdullah 
Sungkar and Abu Bakar Baasyir, recruited their best students to form 
the backbone of the Jamaah Islamiyah, the Indonesian al-Qaida 
affiliate. This means that 87 percent of terrorists in the sample had 
a secular education.

* The vast majority of al-Qaida terrorists in the sample came from 
families with very moderate religious beliefs or a completely secular 
outlook. Indeed, 84 percent were radicalized in the West, rather than 
in their countries of origin. Most had come to the West to study, and 
at the time they had no intention of ever becoming terrorists. 
Another 8 percent consisted of Christian converts to Islam, who could 
not have been brainwashed into violence by their culture. [[ha!]]

* About two-thirds of the sample had attended college, a sharp 
contrast with the less than 10 percent of their original communities 
who did so. Despite their education, they did not know much about 
religion; however, many had studied engineering, which made them 
doubly dangerous. Their relative lack of religious education made 
them especially vulnerable to an extreme version of Islam, and they 
had the skills to build bombs.

* Some argue that lack of sexual opportunity for young Muslim men 
transforms their sexual frustration into suicide terrorism to reap 
the rewards of heaven, especially access to the 72 virgins. In fact, 
three-fourths of al-Qaida terrorists are married, and two-thirds of 
them have children (and many children at that). This apparent paradox 
is explained by the fact that they want many children to pursue the 
jihad, while they sacrifice themselves for their cause and comrades.

* About 60 percent of al-Qaida terrorists in the sample have 
professional or semi-professional occupations.

* There was a near total lack of mental disorders in the sample.

* Recruitment into al-Qaida was through friendship and kinship rather 
than dedicated recruiters.>


Damien Broderick 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 10 19:18:29 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:18:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207855208_928@s8.cableone.net>

At 09:07 AM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>Me:
> >>Fused Quartz, it can do  5 x 10^7 volts/mil.
>
>"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
> > Can you cite the source for this remarkable number?
>
>I too thought the number was remarkable, it was larger than even I thought
>it would be so I decided I wouldn't use it unless I could find 3 independent
>references to it, I could. See:
>
>http://www.proscitech.com/cataloguex/get_notes.asp?fusedquartz    or
>
>http://www.mtixtl.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=591  or
>
>http://www.qtubing.com/index/tech_data

All three of these sites also express the breakdown strength as 5 x 
10 exp 7/meter in the next column.  Since there are about 40,000 
mills in a meter, the correct number is about 1250 volts/mil, which 
is more believable.  It's better than rubber but not that much.  The 
sites all seem to have the same error.  Point this out to the web 
masters if you want to do a good deed.

>By the way, I found one reference that said Muscovite Mica could do even
>better but I couldn't find any conformation so I can't swear to it.
>
>Me:
> >> I don't know how much a power satellite would weigh
>
>You:
> >Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000
> >metric tons for 5 GW.
>
>That figure is indeed very easy to look up but it is much less easy to have
>any confidence in it. Even with mundane things like civilian airliners  the
>early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually proves
>to be far too optimistic,

Do you have a cite for this statement?

Keith



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 10 20:04:17 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:04:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207857956_1293@S4.cableone.net>

At 10:31 AM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
> > I just finished working out the numbers for using 200 times reusable
> > rockets about twice the size of a Saturn V.  To my surprise the energy
> > payback works out to 15 days and it takes 3 power sats to provide the
> > propellants.
>
>That is a perfect example of a statistic

It's not a statistic.  I.e., it does not derive from statistical data.

>that may be true but is totally
>irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost to get into
>geosynchronous orbit.

That's true at present, but in a mature system it would not be 
true.  Ask the airlines what part of their costs is fuel.

>Right now just the launch costs would be close
>to a trillion dollars per satellite,

Which is why it isn't being done.

>that's just to put it in the proper
>place, and that's not counting on the fact that then you've still got to
>actually build the thing.

Big they are, complicated they are not.

>You're going to have to figure out a way that
>is one hell of a lot cheaper than that and I don't see how ground
>launch from Earth can do it.

http://www.ilr.tu-berlin.de/koelle/Neptun/NEP2015.pdf

>And just how "reusable" is this giant rocket going to be? Are you going to
>carry a heavy heat shield all the way up to geosynchronous orbit and then
>carry it all the way back down to earth again?

I guess they carry 39 tons of water that provides the heat shield 
cooling while they are coming back down, but I really don't know.

>Maybe I just get paranoid
>when I hear the word "reusable"; the Space Shuttle was originally
>supposed to be reusable every 2 weeks but that turned into a joke.

It's not impossible.  A private rocket flew twice in ten days or so.

Keith 



From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 10 21:15:53 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:15:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)
Message-ID: <834361.77325.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Jef, thanks for the criticism. I'm not 100% sure what it is you're saying, or to where precisely the critique is aimed. However, half of me wants to answer that it is indeed purely philosophical navel-gazing. That is largely what I'm interested in ;)

However the other half feels very tempted to respond thusly:  The attempt to find a full and developed understanding of the human condition - and especially one's own place within this - is necessarily the first step towards any kind of action. Pragmatism which is done without this first step having been correctly implemented will often lead to disastrous results. There are always assumptions behind any action, one of the philosopher's jobs is to bring those assumptions to light so they can be questioned. I definitely don't think that arbitrariness is part of the picture. I think the relocation of human consciousness within its domain of subjectivity (this word is becoming very overused and I fear is beginning to fail us, or at least me) is essential - the struggle for objectivity and the apparent desire to place 'minds' within an objective reality (rather than accepting the two as complementary poles of a single system) seems very dangerous and has lead
 to the belief that all of value can be described best by the scientific method.

I don't deny "reality", if this is your implication. I am not a solipsist. But, it is not here that the most important things happen. And neither is it in the individual mind. The most important arena is the point where minds meet and create the social strata, which is where meaning is generated, and our thoughts are conditioned by the interpersonal forces mediating between reality and the individual (because, none of us approach the world alone...we all exist within the sphere of culture which gives meaning to our thoughts).

But yes, point taken I think...this is one of the more abstract conversations I've had, but I still think how we go about forming our ideas of the world is of crucial importance to any kind of decision-making.

Mike

PS - Postmodernist mental masturbation. I quite like this. I think the pretend solidities of modernism needed to be challenged by a world-view slightly more fluid and dynamic. Mysticism only really succeeds when it ceases being vague and imbues a light bright enough to be guided by.

----- Original Message ----
From: Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:54:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:07 AM, Michael Miller <ain_ani at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been thinking more about this, and I think there is quite a deep
> misunderstanding between us that reflects a comment someone else made a
> while back - you're talking about ontology, whereas I'm talking about
> epistemology. This is why I keep trying to shake off the
> 'realist-antirealist' boxes, because they're irrelevant to what I'm talking
> about.

[Jumping back into this sandbox for just a moment.]

Michael, you're making a very important point -- crucial to
increasingly effective reasoning involving issues of meaning (value)
-- but your thinking strikes me as lacking an additional layer that
makes the difference between purely philosophical navel-gazing and
pragmatic modeling as a basis for effective decision-making.  Put
[too] simply, it is essential that while every agent's model of
"reality" is entirely subjective, this in no way entails
arbitrariness.  A metaphor that works for me is that we (as subjective
agents) are like the leaves of a tree of increasing possibility
connected by branches of increasing probability.  The root of that
tree represents the "reality" that we can never know.

To grasp this is to have a pragmatic (rather than "True")
understanding of the is/ought problem, and the crucial basis for
increasing agreement as to what must be considered increasingly
"right" or "moral" as we model the branches of that increasingly
objective tree supporting our increasing subjective explorations of
possibility-space.

Apologies in advance for what might appear to be excessively abstract.
 For the record, I abhor vague mysticism, relativism (in the strong
sense), and postmodernist mental masturbation.  So, you can infer that
I mean something other than what might appear to fit such categories.
It's just that this medium of discussion is miserably poor for
conveying complex contexts.

    "The purpose of abstracting is not to be vague,
     but to create a new semantic level in which one
     can be absolutely precise."

     - Edsger W. Dijkstra, _The Humble Programmer_

- Jef
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




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From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 21:50:26 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:50:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 10 April 2008, John K Clark wrote:
> That is a perfect example of a statistic that may be true but is
> totally irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost
> to get into geosynchronous orbit. Right now just the launch costs
> would be close to a trillion dollars per satellite, that's just to
> put it in the proper place, and that's not counting on the fact that
> then you've still got to actually build the thing. You're going to
> have to figure out a way that is one hell of a lot cheaper than that
> and I don't see how ground launch from Earth can do it.

Please show me where those trillions of dollars would go.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Fri Apr 11 00:37:00 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:37:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
	<200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>

I've been following this thread for some time and have so far managed to 
fight off the urge to comment. But I hadn't yet seen any mention of 
protecting this trillion dollar behemoth from natural and unnatural 
disasters. micrometeorites that our atmosphere eats up could tear one of 
these to pieces. The chance is slim of course, but the target is larger 
than most satellites and when your one shot is worth that much money you 
would have to find ways to make those odds even better, not worse. Also, 
your rocket would have to been man-rated or better to provide that extra 
level of caution. How many successful test launches would you require of 
a new launch vehicle before you stick a 1 TRILLION dollar payload on it? 
How much more will these test launches and additional developments cost? 
Wouldn't it make more sense to put hundreds or even thousands of much 
smaller satellites into orbit? Then the loss of one isn't so dramatic 
and you could use profits to bootstrap the project with much lower up 
front development costs.


Bryan Bishop wrote:
> On Thursday 10 April 2008, John K Clark wrote:
>   
>> That is a perfect example of a statistic that may be true but is
>> totally irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost
>> to get into geosynchronous orbit. Right now just the launch costs
>> would be close to a trillion dollars per satellite, that's just to
>> put it in the proper place, and that's not counting on the fact that
>> then you've still got to actually build the thing. You're going to
>> have to figure out a way that is one hell of a lot cheaper than that
>> and I don't see how ground launch from Earth can do it.
>>     
>
> Please show me where those trillions of dollars would go.
>
> - Bryan
> ________________________________________
> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   
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From sentience at pobox.com  Fri Apr 11 00:46:36 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:46:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Metcalfe's Law is Wrong
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740804101110p1330fc00x9e5f8bad1540534@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f7bfe5740804101110p1330fc00x9e5f8bad1540534@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FEB4EC.6070608@pobox.com>

Jef Allbright wrote:
> A particularly lucid article on characterizing growth value of
> networks.  In particular, it argues against the n^2 of Metcalfe's Law
> (which fueled much of the overheated Internet hype of the late '90s )
> in favor of n log(n)

Boy does that sound righter than Metcalfe's Law.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 02:55:23 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:55:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
	<200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>

At 05:37 PM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>I've been following this thread for some time and have so far 
>managed to fight off the urge to comment. But I hadn't yet seen any 
>mention of protecting this trillion dollar behemoth from natural and 
>unnatural disasters. micrometeorites that our atmosphere eats up 
>could tear one of these to pieces. The chance is slim of course, but 
>the target is larger than most satellites

*Hugely* bigger.  One power sat would have more area than all the 
satellites that have been put up to date and getting hit by flying 
rocks is expected to be an almost hourly thing.  Fortunately most of 
them are tiny and are not expected to cause much damage--unless they 
hit where high voltages are adjacent and then there will likely be a 
flashover.  The subject was studied in great detail back in the late 
1970s and the researches concluded it wasn't much of a 
problem--largely because the structure isn't under much stress.

The space elevator, if we get materials strong enough for that, is a 
much harder problem.  There has to be a way to recover from a cut 
cable and to complicate it, the cable is zipping by at 1000 mph.  If 
you have any good ideas, let me know.  Because all satellites below 
the counterweight hit the cable eventually it will take a massive and 
very expensive cleanup of the space junk.  You do get to use the junk 
you clean up as mass for the counterweight though.

>  and when your one shot is worth that much money you would have to 
> find ways to make those odds even better, not worse. Also, your 
> rocket would have to been man-rated or better to provide that extra 
> level of caution. How many successful test launches would you 
> require of a new launch vehicle before you stick a 1 TRILLION 
> dollar payload on it?

You never do.  Using rockets, each launch delivers 200 tons of 
material.  It takes 50 flights (at ten a day) to build one power sat.

>How much more will these test launches and additional developments 
>cost? Wouldn't it make more sense to put hundreds or even thousands 
>of much smaller satellites into orbit?

It's a geometry problem, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk that 
sets the size of the power sats.  They just are not practical in 
sizes much less than 5 GW.  Work backwards from 230W/square meter and 
you will get the transmitter and receiver sizes.  Still the point is 
well taken:  there is such a need for power that the project builds 
more than a thousand of them, 60 in the first year.

>Then the loss of one isn't so dramatic and you could use profits to 
>bootstrap the project with much lower up front development costs.

In fact, the income stream builds the vast majority of them.

The startup cost are between the cost of the Iraq war and the value 
of a year of oil production.

Keith 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 03:15:01 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:15:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 10 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
> You never do. ?Using rockets, each launch delivers 200 tons of
> material. ?It takes 50 flights (at ten a day) to build one power sat.

Geeze, if only there was, you know, stuff, that we could, like, use, 
that wasn't, like, on the surface of the planet. ;)

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 11 03:30:38 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:30:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410140328.024c3c88@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804110331.m3B3Us2h013229@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> Damien Broderick
> Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
> 
> The common view on this list seems to be that such humans are 
> fools suckered by primitive religious conviction that they'll 
> get lots of sex after death (if they are not actually 
> retarded or obedient children). The evidence in this piece 
> suggests otherwise:
> 
>
<http://indianmuslims.in/defying-the-myths-the-rational-educated-secular-pro
sperous-suicide-bomber/>

... Damien Broderick 




Damien I am puzzled by the apparent cognitive dissonance between the above
and this:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/10/terror.uk.ap/index.html?iref=
mpstoryview

Of course I haven't trusted CNN for some time.

spike



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 11 04:16:56 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:16:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
In-Reply-To: <200804110331.m3B3Us2h013229@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410140328.024c3c88@satx.rr.com>
	<200804110331.m3B3Us2h013229@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410231307.024733a8@satx.rr.com>

At 08:30 PM 4/10/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:


><http://indianmuslims.in/defying-the-myths-the-rational-educated-secular-pro
>sperous-suicide-bomber/>
>
>I am puzzled by the apparent cognitive dissonance between the above
>and this:
>
>http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/10/terror.uk.ap/index.html?iref=
>mpstoryview

What dissonance? The guy is quoted explicitly as saying:

<"This is revenge for the actions of the USA in the Muslim lands and 
their accomplices such as the British and the Jews," he says.>

But even so, these guys seem to be marginal copycats who failed to 
read the "Don't try this at home, kids" warning.

Damien Broderick 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 04:28:01 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:28:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/10/2008, Bryan wrote:
>On Thursday 10 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
> > You never do.  Using rockets, each launch delivers 200 tons of
> > material.  It takes 50 flights (at ten a day) to build one power sat.
>
>Geeze, if only there was, you know, stuff, that we could, like, use,
>that wasn't, like, on the surface of the planet. ;)

How well do I know this.  30 years ago Eric Drexler and I figure out 
how to use any sort of moon or asteroid rock for heat transfer fluid 
with only a small vibratory ball mill to process it.

We might be able to sell a rocket based power sat project to the 
bankers and bureaucrats, but not space based industry.  Sorry

Keith Henson 



From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Fri Apr 11 04:39:09 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:39:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Medical update on Gina 4/10/08
Message-ID: <F503D0613589448D83D1C4F6EA96039F@GinaSony>

Hello everyone, Today I have written an update on this new Multiple Sclerosis situation - what's happening, how things are going and what's to come etc. You can read it here: 
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/41008-overview-and-update.html

Kindest regards, 
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/


Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 11 05:10:31 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:10:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Let's Just Do It (was The L5 Society)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <070d01c89b92$638aa420$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Keith writes

> [John Clark writes]
> 
>>  It currently costs about $20,000 to put one kilogram into geosynchronous
>>  orbit, and no I can't give you a number, I don't know how much a power
>>  satellite would weigh except that it would be many many kilograms.
> 
> Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000 metric
> tons for 5 GW.
> 
>>  It seems to me that for the idea to be practical a dramatically cheaper way
>>  needs to be found to put massive things in that orbit, and the only two
>>  ways I know of are space elevators or lunar industrialization. If neither
>>  of those can work then power satellites are Dead On Arrival.

Surely youse guys read the book "Project Orion" or its equivalents.
Larry Niven even, of course, in "Footfall" when the humans got
desperate, used the idea.  (A.E. Van Vogt was even earlier, it's
said, though I don't recall it from the book myself, with the idea
in his novel "Empire of the Atom".)

Keith believes that things will become *desperate*, and I doubt
if John would instinctively be against something as gung-ho as
Orion. 

So all in favor say "yay!".

Lee

P.S.  Yay!


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 11 05:53:52 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:53:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <169076.37511.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <071e01c89b98$b28516e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Lee:
> 
>>Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
>>a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
>>two things having similarity even when there are no
>>perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
>>are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist" 
>>ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
>>can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
>>even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.
> 
> I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving
> what something looks like outside of perception.

I'm not really talking about perception *at all*.  You brought
it up.

> I stick to my guns that for there to be similarity (or ever
> definable qualities) of "somethings" you need to have a
> specific perspective from which you are looking at them.
> I don't think we can sensibly talk about how something
> appears when no one is looking at it.

I'm not interested in appearance either!  :-)   Don't you
think that there were G2 stars before there was any
life in our solar system?  (And, contra SETI, say not
within a billion light years?)  You really don't think
that it's possible for two things to be *intrinsically*
similar without anyone or anything observing or knowing
about it?  Surely you admit that carbon atoms in Andromeda
are pretty damned similar to carbon atoms in Jupiter, and
were long, long, before there might have been any observer
anywhere. "Appearance" is IMO entirely moot.

> ...there is no precise "Jupiter-object" in reality - it's a useful
> concept, and aliens may well articulate their experience of
> reality into a very similar concept...but there's no precise
> Jupiter out there, because reality doesn't have the kind of
> precisely delineated objects our language imputes.

But our language need not attempt (in fact it should *never*
attempt) precisely delineated objects (not, at least outside
mathematics).  Anyone who thinks that "1956 For Fairlane
4 Door Town Sedan Auto Trans with V8" precisely
delineates anything is deeply mistaken.  Korzybski seems
to have devoted the entire 1933 "Science and Sanity" to
depictions and explanations of levels of abstraction. The
great book by Weinberg "Levels of Knowing and Existence:
Studies in General Semantics" (1959) also said the important
part.

So when one of us says "Jupiter" we should not suppose him
to refer to some weird possibly very bogus concept of the
thing that he has.  If he were to talk about "manned voyages
to Jupiter" it would be decidedly insane (hence Korzybski's
Title "Science and Sanity") to take him to be referring to his
concept (who would want a manned voyage to his brain?).
He is referring to the unknown (in detail) thing that is *out
there*.  And you do too!  All the time!  Whenever you 
speak to others in daily life, you are trying to refer, to point,
to something outside your skin---except in weird philosophic
discussions where for reasons unknown to me, people 
suddenly think that realistic language is "naive" or something.

> The real problem is that the more precisely;y we try to
> define our words and concepts, the more slippery reality
> becomes.

OF COURSE!    That's why I have said over and over that
we ought to avoid *defining* things, especially trying to define
them precisely, and certain avoid also (as Korzybski said 
again and again) Aristotelian definitions.

> But, this discussion of Jupiter I think is taking us further and
> further away from the initial issue, which was of Napoleon -
> and I think it's here that my point is much more useful
> (to be frank, in regards to something like Jupiter it's really
> rather a trivial point). What have you to say in this regard?

Likewise, "Napoleon" should refer to the now quite dead
man born in 1769 on Corsica who ruled France from 1795
to 1815 and who died on St. Helena in 1821.

*That* is what the term "Napoleon" should refer to. Not 
anyone's concept.  Not any perception.  Not any appearance.
Of course, no knowledge is certain;  "all knowledge is 
conjectural", as the good philosophers who adopt PCR 
know very well.  (See Bartley, PCR.)

>>The problem is,
>>"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
>>and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
>>to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
>>on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
>>that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
>>The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
>>way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
>>wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
>>that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
>>(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
>>nerve firings all the way down!    :-)
> 
> I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and
> Jupiter become part of a single system.

That really is pure nonsense. There are some very unhelpful results
in quantum mechanics that should not be taken too literally (just
as Einstein's relativity theory has been grossly misused). Jupiter
is located at no less than 4 astronomical units from Earth, and it
is impossible for you and Jupiter to compose any part of a larger
system when you happen to glance at it. It's not *useful* in any
way to suppose that they do. There is no physics in which it is
useful to consider you being a single system (again, outside an
extremely narrow interpretation of QM). This is the sort of 
"insanity" that really used to upset Korzybski so bad---now me,
I'm not so upset, because I realize that Sapir-Whorf was wrong
and words don't really have as much influence on our actions as
those guys thought. In other words, you,  Michael go about all
day long being quite sane and making perfect sense, except when
(IMO) you get into discussions like this and start saying things
about Napoleon or Jupiter that 99% of people would think is
crazy.

> While admitting the utility of it, I disagree with the skin-barrier
> of identity (this is probably clear by now). I don't claim to
> draw any distinct boundaries between the observer and
> observed. (This is also probably by now apparent)

There are indeed other times when the skin-barrier isn't
the appropriate boundary to use.  For example, what
is the boundary between child and adult? Several 
observations:

1.  It is *wrong* to say that there are no such things
     as children or adults just because we have no
     precise dividing line between them
2.  For some purposes, it is advantageous to force
     a line at age 18.  For other purposes, a line is
     drawn at 21.  The  Marines, I think, draw the
     line at 17.  And so on.
3.  We know what *the reality* is. We understand
     that age lies on a continuum. We must resist the
     temptation to try to *define* anything here.

You don't draw any distinct "boundary between the
observer and observed"?   Never?  I would venture
that you do *indeed* draw such a boundary in 99%
of your waking life. If you did not act as though you
were drawing such a boundary, you'd be killed in
traffic right off.  You wouldn't be able to tell yourself
apart from what you were reading. Or emailing. Surely
you admit that a *huge* part of the time you do draw
such a boundary. 

>>I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
>>more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
>>same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
>>not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
>>recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
>>say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
>>of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily 
>>derived being that successfully makes its way in the
>>world will recognize.
> 
>>I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
>>be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.
> 
> Okay. I'll wait for you to offer either an argument or some
> evidence for why this is the case ;) 

They'll have to break up the solar system somewhat like we
do or else they'll crash on the hard spheres (planets) and
won't be able to use the thing we call "the sun" unless they
also are able to make an internal map of it in whatever
passes for their nervous systems.  They jolly well will believe
it to be something outside their craft(s) and outside the
boundaries of whatever they are that came to our solar
system. (Unless they start talking about epistemology and
ontology---then they might be really confused?  who knows?)

>>We progress best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>>to what is objective.
> 
> Can you offer a means for doing this?

Yes.  (1) avoid philosophy classes (2) stick to science and
especially to common sense (3) avoid fancy navel studying
involving "subjectivity" "observer/observed" distinctions
(4) avoid reading about the philosophical implications of
relativity or quantum mechanics (5) try to refer to things
the same way a child (who has loads of common sense)
does, e.g., "there is a car", "there is a dog", etc.  (6)
Avoid referring to "perceptions of cars", "perceptions of
dogs", etc. (8) Avoid ever thinking about or mentioning
*qualia*, a total philosophic death-spiral if there ever was
one (9) avoid thinking about what consciousness "is" (the
dreaded "is"-of-identity that Korzybski and the general
semanticists so declaimed against)  (10) adopt whenever
possible the daily meanings of words and concepts, and
ask a bright twelve year old if something starts to sound 
confusing, how we should think about it,  and those are
just the first ten things I happened to think of.

>>where we appear to differ is that I think that
>>we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
>>of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
>>All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
>>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
>>(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
>>to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
>>exactly what you are saying too. So:
> 
> Hmm, not necessarily. I'm saying we've developed a
> particular kind of awareness/conceptualisation which
> happens to have worked. The fact that everything in
> the "Earth" system has roughly the same kind of
> objective concept-structure would be pretty much
> determined by our evolutionary lineage, and our
> interdependent integration as a system.

Can't argue with that!  :-)

Lee



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 11 05:48:12 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:48:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410231307.024733a8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804110615.m3B6Eq6F008558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> Damien Broderick
> Subject: Re: [ExI] suicide killers

> >
>
>http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/10/terror.uk.ap/index.html?iref
=mpstoryview
> 
> What dissonance? The guy is quoted explicitly as saying:
> 
> <"This is revenge for the actions of the USA in the Muslim 
> lands and their accomplices such as the British and the 
> Jews," he says.> ...Damien Broderick 


Ja.  He lost me as soon as he uttered the comment "muslim lands."  Religions
do not own lands, people do.

spike









From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 11:13:35 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:13:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 5:28 AM, hkhenson wrote:
>  We might be able to sell a rocket based power sat project to the
>  bankers and bureaucrats, but not space based industry.  Sorry
>



The problem with multi trillion dollar projects is that they rapidly
turn into pork barrel boondoggles. Everybody wants their share of the
loot. A project like this won't be run by half a dozen geek
enthusiasts. It will be run by huge bureacracies spread across every
state, all trying to get more funds funnelled to their part of the
organisation.

How about using these vast sums of money to pay 75% of the cost of
installing domestic solar power systems and windmills?  PV systems are
improving year on year and the return on investment is also improving.
As more PV systems get installed, the requirement for more power
stations gradually winds down.

Sure, it's boring. But it is known technology that works now. Just do it!


BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 11:54:49 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:54:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804110654.50061.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 11 April 2008, BillK wrote:
> The problem with multi trillion dollar projects is that they rapidly
> turn into pork barrel boondoggles. Everybody wants their share of the
> loot. A project like this won't be run by half a dozen geek
> enthusiasts. It will be run by huge bureacracies spread across every
> state, all trying to get more funds funnelled to their part of the
> organisation.

See the book:
? _The Seven Laws of Money_ -- Michael Phillips
? http://seeingmoney.org/SevenLaws.htm
Example:

"THE FIRST LAW-- DO IT!
Money will come when you are doing the right thing. Focus on the passion 
rather than the money. Worry about your ability to do it and your 
competence to do it, but certainly do not worry about the money. There 
will always be obstacles. It is the energy generated by the commitment 
to an idea that propels a project toward success. Do not integrate your 
own need to make a living with the needs of a project. "

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 13:13:59 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:13:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804110654.50061.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804110654.50061.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804110613w391722fbi173f70624a2f8ece@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:
>  See the book:
>    _The Seven Laws of Money_ -- Michael Phillips
>    http://seeingmoney.org/SevenLaws.htm
>  Example:
>
>  "THE FIRST LAW-- DO IT!
>  Money will come when you are doing the right thing. Focus on the passion
>  rather than the money. Worry about your ability to do it and your
>  competence to do it, but certainly do not worry about the money. There
>  will always be obstacles. It is the energy generated by the commitment
>  to an idea that propels a project toward success. Do not integrate your
>  own need to make a living with the needs of a project. "
>


Heh!  :)   I never took you for a hippy, Bryan!   :)

I suppose it's not too bad a book for the 70s culture.
Hang loose, do your own thing and make a budget..

But , like I said, a half a dozen really keen geeks won't get to run a
huge project like a space elevator.

For personal finance advice, try:
<http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2007/03/07/building-a-personal-finance-library-25-of-the-best-books-about-money/>


BillK


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 15:56:17 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:56:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>

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From jonkc at att.net  Fri Apr 11 17:17:14 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:17:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com><001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207855208_928@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <004301c89bf8$3b2ed9e0$4def4d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> All three of these sites also express the breakdown strength
> as 5 x 10 exp  7/meter in the next column.

Yes, for the second time in a week I have to admit that you're right and I'm
wrong. It's obvious (well, it's obvious now) that these websites were not
independent and were just copying each others error. Serves me right for
taking a remarkable claim posted to a website seriously, something I've
accused others of doing and then I go and do it myself.

Oh well, I'm not giving up, there must be a way for a power line to pass
through those critical 50 miles or so; Perhaps Silica aerogel would work,
it's supposed to be a pretty good electrical insulator but I couldn't find a
number so I don't know how good, but even if it's no better than air at sea
level it might do the job because it's the lightest solid known; in a vacuum
(it's 99.8% empty space) it weighs just  1 mg/cm^3, sea level air is about
1.2 mg/cm^3.

Or maybe you should just separate the conductors from the standard one
meter to 100 meters, or even a thousand for that short interval, or step
down the voltage. I refuse to believe the ionosphere is impenetrable.

It's not really related (probably not anyway) but in the April 3 2008 Nature
researchers announced they have discovered the opposite of a
superconductor, they found a perfect insulator. It doesn't mean it has an
infinite breakdown voltage but just as a superconductor can carry an
electric current forever this new super insulator can carry an electric
charge forever. The discoverers (Argonne, Novovsibirsk, Regensburg
and Bochum) think that someday superinsulators could have practical 
applications.

Me:
> the early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually
> proves to be far too optimistic

You:
> Do you have a cite for this statement?

Nope, nor do I think I need one. I think some things are in the category of
"generally recognized as true", things like the conservation of energy or
momentum or the optimistic spin promoters give their projects. In a few
very rare instances something in this category may turn out to be false,
but it is your job to prove it false not mine to prove it true.

  John K Clark








From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 17:38:17 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:38:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804111038r55bc54a8wb9b7f18230e5df96@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 4:56 PM, hkhenson wrote:
<snip>
>
>  Now I fully admit space based solar power isn't a very likely future.  Food
> riots, such as are about to start in several places, epidemics and wars are
> the probable program for the next few decades as world population falls
> dramatically.
>


I agree that space based solar power is unlikely.

Food riots, epidemics and wars will provide dramatic incentives to
improve the energy supply situation.

The West will continue to use oil, coal and natural gas for at least
the next ten to twenty years. New finds, reuse old fields, etc. Oil
supplies will continue OK, with possibly a few hiccups. The suppliers
have seen what happens when the West wants to secure oil supplies.

Rising energy prices will drive economy measures and the development
of alternatives.

Energy use is roughly 50 / 50 split between domestic and industrial.
So more and better nuclear power stations will be built.
Domestic measures include greater insulation, solar panel roofs, windmills, etc.
10% transportation fuel savings are easily achievable. More with research.
(China is making 30 million electric bikes and scooters each year).

Of course, the investment payback on many alternatives is presently
not sensible.
But when energy prices quadruple, very different rules prevail.

It won't be easy, and the western world will feel poorer for some
years. But the changeover from fossil fuels is doable once the
realization sinks in.



BillK


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Fri Apr 11 18:42:45 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:42:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blog essay on the complex systems problem
In-Reply-To: <009b01c89be9$3584f3d0$a08edb70$@com>
References: <e2c78480804100702h57343229g38424f2a90bda637@mail.gmail.com>
	<3cf171fe0804101648l25e2792ej6e0f9506312d368@mail.gmail.com>
	<009b01c89be9$3584f3d0$a08edb70$@com>
Message-ID: <47FFB125.2030901@lightlink.com>


I have just finished producing a blog post that describes the complex 
systems problem in what I hope will be a more accessible form than the 
paper that I wrote before.

I am gradually working up to newer topics, but I have to lay the 
groundwork by giving a definitive version of some of the ideas I have 
written about elsewhere.



Richard Loosemore






From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 19:53:37 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:53:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] why beautiful women tend to marry less attractive men
Message-ID: <2d6187670804111253u48e4d77dy17e0d3e869052ed4@mail.gmail.com>

Why beautiful women *supposedly* tend to marry less attractive men...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080410/sc_livescience/whybeautifulwomenmarrylessattractivemen

John
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From michaelanissimov at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 21:59:11 2008
From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:59:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
Message-ID: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>

What H+ technology do you care about the most?

http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720

Choices:

   - *Superintelligence*
   - Life Extension
   - Mind Uploading
   - Nanotechnology
   - Cybernetics
   - Other

-- 
Michael Anissimov
Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com
http://acceleratingfuture.com
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 22:15:29 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:15:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <004301c89bf8$3b2ed9e0$4def4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207855208_928@s8.cableone.net>
	<004301c89bf8$3b2ed9e0$4def4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207952230_481@s7.cableone.net>

At 10:17 AM 4/11/2008, you wrote:

snip

>Oh well, I'm not giving up, there must be a way for a power line to pass
>through those critical 50 miles or so;

"This should be contrasted with a vacuum 
interrupter suffering a leak, where the voltage 
strength of the gap falls to a minimum level of a 
few hundred volts in the glow discharge region of 
0.1?10 torr (13.3?133.2 pascals), recovering to 
around 30 kV/cm at atmospheric pressure."

Fault Current Management Guidebook
1010680
Technical Update, March 2006
EPRI Project Manager
R. Adapa

Hmm  http://www.luizmonteiro.com/StdAtm.aspx

63621 m for 0.1 torr
45888.6 m for 10 torr

17.7 km.

Knowing that aircraft electronics is pressurized 
for 10,000 meters, I think you might have more 
like 50 km to insulate on the low end.   The 
consequences of a pinhole in the insulation are 
that the conductor sputters away.  That's what 
happened to the failed shuttle experiment.

>Or maybe you should just separate the conductors from the standard one
>meter to 100 meters, or even a thousand for that short interval, or step
>down the voltage. I refuse to believe the ionosphere is impenetrable.

You don't get as much effect out of spacing as 
you would think.  It's the effect of more material in parallel.

snip

>Me:
> > the early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually
> > proves to be far too optimistic
>
>You:
> > Do you have a cite for this statement?
>
>Nope, nor do I think I need one. I think some things are in the category of
>"generally recognized as true", things like the conservation of energy or
>momentum or the optimistic spin promoters give their projects. In a few
>very rare instances something in this category may turn out to be false,
>but it is your job to prove it false not mine to prove it true.

If this were the case for Boeing, their aircraft 
would never get off the ground.

In my experience as an engineer, my designs have 
always worked about as expected.  In any case, 
the consequences of not doing something really 
big in the light of energy problems are really 
awful to consider.  Even if power sats are 
recognized as a way out of the carbon and energy 
problems there are going to be some dire times 
before they can be brought on line.

Keith 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 22:35:57 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:35:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Scientists predict rise of the nanobots advanced ai
	technology by 2029
Message-ID: <200804111735.58083.kanzure@gmail.com>

Spence,

I am a little disappointed--- you guys could have asked me to set up an 
interview with Ray. Additionally, there's a number of important, 
interesting contributors to the posthuman concept here in Austin that I 
visit with monthly to discuss the technological and social 
implementation of these ideas. Maybe emphasizing the local aspects of 
it would be more relevant to a high school newspaper, if at all. That 
being said, I think there are some corrections that should be made.

I am also forwarding this message over to some transhumanist mailing 
lists for further discussion if you'd like to join in.

Scientists Predict Rise of the Nanobots Advanced AI Technology by 2029
by Lauren Williams
Editor-in-Chief

The scientists who are predicting this include Fretias, Drexler, Merkle, 
but to my knowledge Kurzweil isn't actually directly participating in 
the science/tech, he's the The Singularity is Near guy. I have a copy 
of his 2005 book if you are interested. And I have a video of one of 
Fretias' presentations at Alcor (the cryonic suspension organization in 
Arizona). http://alcor.org/

> Current advances in nanotechnology have scientists believing that by 

Not really - only a very small minority. Wish it was more. :)

> the year 2029, computers will be as smart as humans, and that small 
> robots called nanobots will be implanted into human brains and will 
> help make humans smarter and healthier.   

Perhaps. But the problem with portraying it like this is that it's fear 
mongering. People don't need to be afraid of this technology: nobody is 
going to run around inserting these things into people who don't want 
it.

> "We're already a human machine civilization, we use our technology to
> expand our physical and mental horizons and this will be a further 
> extension of that," inventor and futurist Raymond Kurzweil said.  

> Nanobots are predicted to enter brains through capillaries and 

It's whatever we design them to do.

> interact with biological neurons. Variations of interactions are 
> thought to bring about positive responses, such as strengthening of 
> the immune system and stimulation of portions of the brain that deal 
> with intelligence and memory. Another hope for great thinkers is the 
> eradication of disease through nanotechnology.

Only some diseases. The problem is that we are not able to tell when one 
thing is a disease and another thing isn't, so we need to be careful 
and do very specific molecular sensors.

> While there are a number of different factors that could prevent this 
> utopia from becoming a reality, one cannot deny that this generation 

Nothing about utopia here.

> is 21 years away from a cyber revolution and this is one of the 
> greatest technological advances of our time; the first step to 
> becoming a machine automated society.    

Please check out the relevant websites:
http://transhumanism.org/
http://kurzweilai.net/
http://lifeboat.com/
http://alcor.org/
http://imminst.org/
and many others (just ask- I have thousands of bookmarks)

Also, on my website I run the transhumanist technical roadmap group, we 
specialize in transhumanist technologies, such as self-replicating 
machines (nanobots but not necessarily nano), brain implants, genetic 
engineering, do-it-yourself synthetic biology, and it's all open 
source / free. For example, here's the website for the biohacking 
project where you can download the files *right now* to get started:

http://biohack.sf.net/
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 23:10:58 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:10:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200804111810.58169.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 11 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
>  Or around 900 power sats, 15 years of production at 60 a year. Now I
>  fully admit space based solar power isn't a very likely future.?

Sorry Keith, I just don't see how that's much of a problem, especially 
if we solve the self-replicating machine problem (kinematic 
self-replicators, or even just n^2 tech, not necessarily 2^n). Call 
this the powersat bootstrap scenario: we launch once and only once, 
everything else is done in the sky. Actually, there might be more than 
one launch due to various predictions of failure due to solar 
radiation, micrometeorites, etc.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr 12 03:05:04 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:05:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bin Laden's background
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>

Crashed planes and family members... hmmm... J. G. Ballard could have 
invented this guy.

<http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23524543-5001986,00.html>

Cameron Stewart, | April 12, 2008

THERE is a black sheep in most families but few can hold a candle to 
the bin Ladens.
While the scions of this wealthy Saudi Arabian dynasty cavort across 
the globe in corporate jets, chasing women and oil profits in equal 
measure, one of their siblings is thought to be hiding in a remote 
cave in central Asia and is the world's most wanted terrorist.

It is the ultimate family schism, but one which is often overlooked 
in the West's quest to understand the forces that shaped Osama bin 
Laden. According to Pulitzer Prize-winning author Steve Coll, this is 
largely because the bin Laden family and the Saudi royals have tried 
hard to safeguard the family's colourful history.

Coll has sought to unlock the secrets of the bin Laden dynasty and 
shed light on the more personal aspects of Osama's life.

"After September 11, it became commonplace to trace the sources of 
Osama's radicalism to the Islamic political revival that swept the 
Middle East after 1979 and also to his experiences as a jihad fighter 
and organiser during the anti-Soviet Afghan war," writes Coll in his 
new book, The Bin Ladens: The Story of a Family and itsFortune.

"These were crucial influences on him, but to focus on them 
exclusively is to risk passing over the complexity of Osama's 
relationship with his family and his country, the sources of 
attraction and repulsion these ties created in his life, and their 
influence on his character and ideas."

Coll reveals how the young Osama found himself caught between two 
worlds - growing up amid a wealthy family that embraced the excesses 
of Western-style capitalism - and his own religious studies, which 
preached the polar opposite. What's more, Osama grew up in a family 
that embraced, commercially and culturally, the "infidel enemy", the US.

"Until Osama announced himself as an international terrorist, his 
family was much more heavily invested in the US than has generally 
been understood," writes Coll. "His brothers and sisters owned 
American shopping centres, apartment complexes, condominiums, luxury 
estates, privatised prisons in Massachusetts, corporate stocks, an 
airport and much else.

"They attended American universities, maintained friendships and 
business partnerships with Americans, and sought American passports 
for their children.

"They financed Hollywood movies, traded thoroughbred horses with 
country singer Kenny Rogers, and negotiated real estate deals with 
Donald Trump.

"In both a literal and a cultural sense, the bin Laden family owned 
an impressive share of the America upon which Osama declared war."

To explain how this occurred, Coll goes back to Osama's father, a 
young illiterate Yemeni called Mohammed bin Laden.

Mohammed was in his late 20s and blind in one eye when he moved from 
Yemen to Saudi Arabia and worked as a bricklayer at a time when the 
Saudi oil boom was beginning.

He was soon recognised for his organisational skills, and within a 
few years he had started a construction business.

The fast-rising bin Laden patriarch assiduously cultivated the Saudi 
royal family, winning key building contracts that would underpin the 
family fortune. As his wealth grew, so did his appetite for women - a 
lust that would infect the dynasty, including Osama.

Mohammed gathered wives at whim, marrying at least nine times between 
1943 and 1953 and fathering 54 children from numerous partners. Seven 
of his children were delivered in 1958 alone, one of which was Osama, 
whose mother was a 15-year-old Syrian who split with his father soon 
afterwards.

Mohammed was religious, impressing on his children the rituals and 
glory of Islam. But he was not an extremist. "The boys knew their 
father as a distant, stern, even regal figure," writes Coll. "Bin 
Laden placed a heavy emphasis on frugality, work, religious piety and 
self-reliance."

When Osama was seven, his father died in a plane crash, a loss that 
deeply hurt the young boy. "He was affected by the death of his 
father, he was very solitary," recalls Suleiman al-Kateb, a woman 
from his village.

Osama idolised his father and saw him as a role model. He was told 
that his father died as a result of a mistake by an American pilot.

"Osama absorbed the idea that his father was not a person who sits 
down behind a desk and gives orders. Rather, Mohammed bin Laden 
worked with his own hands in the desert, offering direct leadership 
to his ethnically diverse employees. This, of course, would become 
Osama's style of leadership as well."

Mohammed's death left control of the family business in the hands of 
his eldest son, Salem.

His wealth also meant that each of his children, including Osama, was 
left a substantial sum of money. Salem and Mohammed's many other sons 
were not imbued with their father's notions of Islamic frugality, and 
quickly embraced Western tastes, from fashionable clothes to 
expensive cars and aeroplanes.

The odd one out was Osama. He was a shy and polite boy who showed no 
obvious penchant for material possessions. "Relatives remember Osama 
as calm and extremely quiet, almost to the point of timidity. He 
preferred to be alone," writes Coll. He lived separately from his 
half-brothers and with his mother and step-father, but was very much 
considered a part of the bin Laden family and business.

He was by all accounts an average student, but during his teens Osama 
began to embrace religious instruction and moved into a Muslim 
brotherhood group that espoused traditional fundamentalist Muslim values.

"Osama and his group openly adopted the styles and convictions of 
teenage Islamic activists. They let their young beards grow, 
shortened their trouser legs and lectured or debated other students 
about the urgent need to restore pure Islamic law across the Arab world."

Outside of religion, Osama was passionate about outdoor activities 
such as swimming, hunting and horse riding, and he had a weakness for 
action movies and westerns.

"He seemed particularly drawn to teachings that a righteous Muslim 
should imitate the dress and customs that prevailed during the 
prophet's lifetime."

By the time he was 17, Osama was "notably attracted to girls" and 
decided to marry so he could have legitimate sex. He married his 
first cousin, Najwa, and she soon gave birth to a son, the first of 
at least 23 children from different wives. "The marriage bed seems 
only to have sharpened Osama's conviction that a righteous Muslim man 
should not cast his eyes even in passing on women other than his 
legal wives and mother. He did not permit his wife to meet strangers. 
He averted his eyes from the family maid. When he made social calls 
on his brothers he would back away and cover his eyes if an unveiled 
woman opened the door."

He banned most television and music and would not let his children 
drink out of a straw because these had been unknown in the prophet's lifetime.

"His only conspicuous pleasures were sex, cars, work and the outdoors."

Despite this, Coll says there is not much evidence that Osama was 
especially political during his teenage years.

Until at least 1979 there was "hardly any evidence that Osama was 
willing to take significant personal risks in the name of rebellion."

Yet at the same time as Osama embraced hardline Islam, his many 
relatives were doing precisely the opposite.

As head of the family business, Salem bin Laden embraced America, 
using it to accumulate cars and consumer goods for the Saudi royals.

He sent home 5000 cases of Tabasco sauce because he liked the taste, 
and even shipped hundreds of American cactuses and other desert 
plants back to Saudi Arabia.

The US also became a place of parties and excessive indulgence for 
the bin Ladens, who frequented Las Vegas and its Roman-themed casino 
Caesar's Palace.

"America became a place for singing, flying and, above all, 
shopping." Despite this, the increasingly disparate secular and 
religious wings of the sprawling bin Laden family held together.

The frugal fundamentalist Osama maintained a close relationship with 
his jetsetting family and accepted his share of the profits of the 
family business regardless of how and where these were generated. In 
the early 1980s, Salem bin Laden sent Osama to Pakistan to oversee 
the distribution of funding to the Afghan resistance, which was 
fighting the Soviet invaders.

By dispatching Osama, the bin Ladens were supporting the Saudi 
Government's clandestine foreign policy of helping the Islamic resistance.

It proved to be the beginning of the end of the family unit.

Osama revelled in his role. He soon moved into supplying arms to the 
Afghan rebels, the mujaheddin, and gained a taste for Islamic-style 
armed resistance. With Salem providing substantial financial backing, 
Osama soon became a hero to the mujaheddin.

The bin Ladens used publicists and the media to market Osama, 
promoting him as a fearless rich man who lived among the poor and who 
was willing to sacrifice everything for his religion.

Salem bin Laden did much to make Osama's reputation, and when he died 
in a plane crash in 1988 Osama was deeply affected, overlooking his 
half-brother's hedonistic ways.

When Osama returned to Saudi Arabia in late 1989 he saw himself as a 
international guerilla leader who worked in the service of his king.

But within a year he fell out with the royal family over its plans to 
employ American-led troops in a war to oust Saddam Hussein's Iraqi 
forces from Kuwait.

Disgusted, Osama moved to Sudan in 1991. He also became disappointed 
in his family, especially its new head, Bakr bin Laden, who refused 
to criticise the Saudi royals, whose patronage was so important to 
the family business.

It was not until 1993, when a bomb went off in the World Trade 
Centre, killing six people, that the international media began to 
focus on Osama's financing of Islamic resistance. He had become a 
public embarrassment to the Saudi royals, who publicly disowned him 
and pressured the bin Laden family to do likewise. The family agreed, 
cutting Osama from the business and publicly repudiating him.

By this time Osama's fledgling al-Qa'ida was flourishing, with groups 
of jihad fighters sent to Somalia, Yemen, Bosnia, Libya and 
Tajikistan, among other places.

Osama spent much of his time in Sudan penning long essays expressing 
fury at Saudi Arabia, which he claimed was waging a war against Islam.

In 1996, under pressure from the US, Sudan expelled Osama and he 
moved with his family to Afghanistan. Once there he became 
increasingly preoccupied with the US, reading books about America, 
including long tomes on Washington's foreign and defence policy 
towards Saudi Arabia and the Middle East.

One of his former wives says he became increasingly quiet and 
withdrawn. There were periods when he "did not like anyone to talk to 
him" and that he "used to sit and think for a long time and sleep very late".

At the same time he craved connections with the outside world, 
placing hundreds of calls to terror cell leaders and financiers 
across the world. It was these phone calls that would implicate Osama 
in the bomb attacks on US embassies in east Africa in August 1998, 
which killed 225 people. Those attacks, and the retaliatory US 
missile strike against Osama's camps several weeks later, gave the 
terrorist leader an instant global profile.

The bin Laden family was both stunned and embarrassed by Osama's 
rapid descent into terrorism. His brothers worried about the impact 
on the family business and about the shame it brought to the family name.

Family members agreed to help US authorities find Osama, but said 
they had no idea where he was. In the US, the dozens of bin Ladens 
living there laid low. But far worse was to come. When the terror 
attacks of September 11 occurred, the family knew it had to flee the 
US. Days after the attacks, a chartered 727 criss-crossed America 
picking up dozens of bin Ladens and flying them back to their homeland.

The family publicly denounced Osama once again, but also found that 
he had won a cult following among many in Saudi Arabia.

The 9/11 attacks directly hurt family business interests in the US, 
where the bin Ladens were abandoned by universities and corporations 
that had courted them in the past. But the empire has since recovered 
and is now a thriving multi-billion-dollar global enterprise.

Osama's brothers and sisters seem surprised, puzzled and embarrassed 
by their half-brother and at what he has become. They have repudiated 
him but have rarely expressed open anger. Similarly, Osama has 
refused to condemn his own siblings, despite that they embrace much 
of what the terrorist leader despises.

Writes Coll: "(Osama) has never denounced or openly repudiated his 
own family, and he has explained their occasional statements 
repudiating him as merely the product of heavy pressure brought to 
bear by the Saudi Government."

Osama, the black sheep of the bin Ladens, has not completely 
abandoned his flock.



From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 03:26:03 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:26:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Longevity Dividend media piece
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804112026laa2468egebd58675a5f58499@mail.gmail.com>

I am going to get a teensy weensy bit of practice transferring the
lifecourse to a tiny audience of a small local newspaper.

A series of 10 - 300 word piece entitled "living healthier and longer"

Start time will be 3-5 weeks after each longevity dividend paper.

The focus will be to examine the week's paper in the perspective of people
from Saskatchewan, Canada.

No city papers have bit so far.

Morris Johnson

I requested all the reading material on the texts list but nothing has
arrived to date.
I might end up going to the city big box book store to buy one or 2.



-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net, arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 04:05:07 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:05:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] membership page seems to not work
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804112105q60eed923nfa263fa0bbc3a30b@mail.gmail.com>

James:

the word one has to copy into the box is non-existant so the site refuses to
process new memberships
at   http://ieet.org/index.php/forums


Morris Johnson
-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net, arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Apr 12 05:22:23 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:22:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804111810.58169.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
	<200804111810.58169.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207977846_207@s7.cableone.net>

At 04:10 PM 4/11/2008, Bryan wrote:
>On Friday 11 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:

> >  Or around 900 power sats, 15 years of production at 60 a year. Now I
> >  fully admit space based solar power isn't a very likely future.

>Sorry Keith, I just don't see how that's much of a problem, especially if we
>solve the self-replicating machine problem (kinematic self-replicators, or
>even just n^2 tech, not necessarily 2^n). Call this the powersat bootstrap
>scenario: we launch once and only once, everything else is done in the sky.

>Actually, there might be more than one launch due to various predictions of
>failure due to solar radiation, micrometeorites, etc. - Bryan

I have no doubts that humans or whatever we turn into can eventually 
do this.  But how sure are you that it will happen before several 
billion people die of starvation?  Or do you care?  It's hard to work 
up a lot of caring for people who have bred themselves into a nasty 
dead end.  But there is little doubt in my mind that massive problems 
on the far side of the globe are going to generate impacts here.

Like wars and acts of nuclear terrorism.

Keith






From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Apr 12 12:27:18 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:27:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <mailman.69.1207893544.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.69.1207893544.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4800AAA6.5070501@lineone.net>

John Grigg wrote:

 > A big part of the discrepancy here is that this former Oxford scholar
 > has evidently horrific emotional/self-esteem problems that emerged in 
 > way that pushed her toward self-degradation and self-destruction. 
She > was not a fairly "normal" attractive young woman trying to pay for
 > college by discreetly engaging in high-end prostitution "on the 
side."  > This was an extremely psychologically messed up girl who was 
driven to > degrade herself.
 > Sadly, she is hardly alone in doing these sort of things (and though 
I > don't know the full details) and I tend to feel really sorry for her
 > former husband.  I bet she put him through hell.

Funnily enough, i was just reading about this girl.

My impression is that she is definitely not messed-up, and has not been 
driven to 'degrade herself' (do you regard prostitution, per se, to be a 
degrading career?).

On the contrary, she claims to be 'very happy' with her career choice, 
and has high self-esteem. She says that she has an amicable relationship 
with her ex-husband.

She was 'hot-housed' by her parents, and entered Oxford University at 
13, studying Maths. It was when her father started talking about an 
arranged marriage that she ran away at the age of 15. She says "I felt 
very independent and wanted to be in control of my life". She stayed in 
hostels, then was taken into foster care. At 18 she met and later 
married a guy, but separated after 12 months. She then went to 
Manchester to study for a Masters degree in economics, and this was when 
she started doing escort work, to help pay off her debts.

Here are some more quotes from a recent magazine interview with her:

"I don't see it as a terrible thing. It's something I drifted into by 
chance. I never judged girls who worked as escorts and was always 
fascinated by it. There is this huge stigma attached to escorting but I 
don't see it like that"

"I'm still young and I can't decide on what I want to do in the future. 
My escorting work provides me with a fabulous life and I don't want to 
give it up just yet."

"I have a nice life - I don't want for anything and I'm in control. I 
haven't had much freedom in my life and I'm enjoying it."

Doesn't sound like someone with horrific emotional and self-esteem 
problems to me!
More like an extremely intelligent girl who's decided to take control of 
her own life and do what she wants to do. More power to her, I say.

ben zaiboc


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 12:37:50 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:37:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Made England Special?
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Tom wrote

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 2:24 PM
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight, Deregulating Stock Exchanges

> Lee wrote: "Is *every* society and *every*
> civilization composed of historical type human beings
> necessarily capable of self-regulation,
> self-government, and almost unrestrained capitalism?
> I ask that as a general sort of question which you and
> other readers may or may not wish to explore. I myself
> don't think so."
> 
> Well, historical type human beings are a diverse
> bunch, but they *could* take to self-regulation and
> self-government, and some form of market-based
> economy.

It would require a gradually changing mind-set for 
many people in many cultures. We even have to
start at home, because even most people in the 
most libertarian of states or nations just simply
don't understand the potential of free markets and
liberty. Nor have they any intuitions whatsoever
that wherever possible that's the direction societies
should move. 

But if I think about how long it would have taken
the ancient Romans, or the Yanomamo or Ache,
or even 19th century Japanese, it becomes clear
that not all societies are equally ready for democracy,
much less a highly libertarian form.

> Take my fine people, the British. Some people would
> like to have you believe that this blessed people were
> a Chosen People who developed the industrial
> revolution and built a large empire, and settled
> America to form a Nation guided by Providence,
> Manifest Destiny and other Wooly-Minded Concepts with
> Arbitrary Capitals. Some think there is something
> special that led the British and their English-speaking
> descendents to their place of prominence.

The book "Farewell to Alms" does a fine job of describing
what made England different. And between them, England
and Holland led the way to the modern world. A lot of it
could have come about accidentally because of the way
that power in the 13th century between the king and the
nobles happened to have gotten shared.

> I take the opposite view. If the violence-loving
> people from a bunch of rainy islands on the Northwest
> of Europe could overcome much bigger and more populous
> nations like France and Spain,

Many times they were saved from conquest by inhabiting
an island. In a very parallel way, the Japanese were permitted
by geography to work out what turned out to be a very 
powerful culture and country.

> and have their creole of Romantic and Germanic languages
> become one of the world's dominant languages, then there's
> hope for everybody. If we could do it, there's no reason any
> other culture/people/nation/arbitrary grouping of
> humanity couldn't achieve a great deal too.

Yes, in time.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 12:40:57 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:40:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight,
	Deregulating Stock Exchanges
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07d101c89c9a$a76b68b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Tom also wrote

> Rafal wrote: "A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley,
> which imposed huge costs that disproportionately
> afflict smaller businesses, and thus serve to limit the
> competition against entrenched large companies -
> exactly the companies that lobby the government
> and hire former SEC employees (the "revolving
> door" phenomenon)."

Rafal is right on target, as usual.

> Well Lee, global competition is providing an example
> of lighter market regulation. When Sarbanes-Oxley hit
> US business (as Rafal mentioned), some businesses
> based in both New York and London dropped their New
> York listing. A couple of years ago, it was widely
> trumpeted that London had overtaken New York as a
> global financial centre as it had a mix of US and
> European investment banks in a place with fairly light
> touch regulation by global standards.

Good news!

> In fact, the UK leads in low-regulation stock
> markets. To quote
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Investment_Market
>
> "The AIM has also started to become an international
> exchange, often due to its low-regulatory burden,
> especially in relation to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act
> (though only a quarter of AIM-listed companies would
> qualify to list on a U.S. stock exchange even prior to
> passage of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act[1]). As of December
> 2005 over 270 foreign companies had been admitted to
> the Alternative Investment Market."
>
> The AIM is so colossally low-regulatory that London's
> becoming a haven for people seeking to raise funds to
> go drill for oil,gold,copper or anything else that
> requires highly speculative prospecting and in most
> markets would require massive disclosures. It's also
> been the home of a ?375million fraud, and a haven for
> offshore financial vehicles. Time will tell if this
> low-regulatory regime survives or if pressure from
> other countries persuades the UK to tighten up.
>
> As an aside, many stock markets are themselves
> publicly quoted companies, and there is a process of
> consolidation going on around the western world -
> there's a bidding war for the London Stock Exchange,
> and other stock exchanges/bourses are under bids at
> the moment.

Thanks very much for that. The entire AIM entry in wikipedia
was also very helpful.  I hope that the way that things are
done is not so thoroughly entrenched that the world's biggest
economy cannot learn from this.

Lee 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 13:03:18 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 06:03:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stathis wrote


> On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, it's an extremely perverse use of the word "insurance" as
>>  a euphemism for "national or tax-funded health care system".
>>  (Hmm, I guess that is the phrase I should use since the "s"
>>  word arouses sensitivities in many.)
> 
> Why, exactly?

Why what?  why the word choice is so bad? That's because
*insurance* should always be understood as a kind of bet:
you bet that something bad will happen to you, and a large
financial institution bets that it won't, and you both hope that
the deep-pocket company wins.

Damien also explained very well why the term should not
be used as a synonym for "national health care".

If you're wondering why I should avoid the "s" word, it's 
because for reasons unknown to me many people who
really do admit that Sweden, say, is more socialized (or
is closer to socialism) than is the U.S., but they have gone
on record as feeling insulted by use of the terms "socialistic"
and "socialism". It's an extremely complex issue just who
is bothered by what terms (I can't even fully explain why
I am bothered by some language issues and not others.)

> Because it's compulsory?

In principle, that's a big part of it. Free choice in general has
worked out so well whenever a society has been "ready" 
for it, i.e., when the freedom is able to be maintained without
immediately falling to some more practical and ruthless group
that takes advantage of it to push some anti-freedom agenda.
There are a number of free countries in the world who are
steadily being encroached upon by those who disagree that
the country should be free (or that people should live according
to secular laws that lay down a great deal of personal liberty),
and yet to take advantage of the country's freedoms to directly
go about undermining them.

> There are all sorts of commercial situations where (private)
> insurance is compulsory; for example, if you are the owner
> of a unit in an apartment building.

But if the *compulsion* (so-called) arises from you freely
choosing to live in such an apartment, instead of choosing
some other kind of dwelling (that is perhaps more expensive),
then that's one thing.  I choose to continue to live in a town-
house complex that has all sorts of rules about what we can
and cannot do to the exterior of our units. 

It's quite another when the entire nation applies force. It's
not at all easy to go live in another country, and worse, if
the country that is using force on you excessively, i.e., in
instances where substitutes would be available, then one
really is trapped. As I said before, the world's most 
advanced free societies should work to diminish the number
of regulations and laws that are compulsorily inflicted on the
population. (That does not mean getting rid of all laws, of
course.)

>> Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system of national,
>>  tax-funded medical care, there will end up being bureaucrats
>>  who make the hard decisions about who gets what expensive
>>  treatments. Do you really expect the son of a senator to be
>>  treated with the same lack of deference a typical semiretired
>>  software engineer would be?  There is a record of a certain
>>  baseball player---I forget who---who was put at the head of
>>  the list for some state or federally funded medical treatment
>>  a few years back. You'll never root out that kind of corruption.
> 
> I guess it's possible, but the same sort of thing can happen if you're
> trying to book a restaurant table.

Not at all. Keep in mind that so long as not all the restaurants
are regulated by the government (which is steadily becoming
more and more not the case in California and perhaps America
in general), then you can always *freely choose* to take your
business elsewhere.

> In my personal experience over 16 years in the Australian
> public health system something like this has happened once,
> when hospital management requested that a relative of a
> famous person be reassessed after he was rejected for
> admission.

There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other 
reason the U.S. has a much longer history.

>>  I say let the contracts be written, literal, and binding (and
>>  strongly enforced by the government) between those who
>>  legitimately want insurance for whatever they're afraid of.
>>  And if you are unlucky enough to be born with a condition
>>  that *predictably* at age 40 will start to require $100,000
>>  or $10,000,000 treatments each month to overcome, well,
>>  better then to have been of economic utility to other
>>  people and have become rich.
> 
> This is where universal insurance has an advantage, even if it is
> contracted out to a private insurer. The agreement is to insure the
> entire population of citizens, come what may.

That's still very misleading language, if you ask me. It's not
*insurance* at all!  It's simply a guarantee to all citizens that
their health problems will be "taken care of" by a nationally
tax funded (i.e. by force applied to citizens to compel them
to pay whether they want to opt out or not).

> BTW, there aren't any treatments costing $10,000,000 a
> month that have gone through any of the usual studies to
> show that they are of benefit, since there is no incentive for
> anyone to do such studies.

Perhaps not yet there aren't. But there could easily become
such treatments. Anyway, surely you got my point! Even at
$100,000 a month, some bureaucrat will end up having to
say "no" to some doctors and to some families. In the U.S.
at least, this is a huge incentive for corruption and favoritism.

It's just perfectly clear that on this issue there are some of us
who favor freedom over security, and some who do not. It's
really too bad that we have no countries of any size left in 
the world that are entirely free, in the sense that they compel
their citizens as little as did the U.S. of 1855.   So we can't
learn a thing from such non-existent examples.

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 15:25:13 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:25:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <4800AAA6.5070501@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.69.1207893544.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4800AAA6.5070501@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804120825k7f9d8327m7dbaf2b2feda9e@mail.gmail.com>

Ben Zaiboc wrote:
>>>Funnily enough, i was just reading about this girl.

What is the source material that you base your comments on?  Is there a link
you can give?

John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 16:00:49 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:00:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Made England Special?
In-Reply-To: <07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804120900n59a54c40g76f60a4e0150c69e@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
The book "Farewell to Alms" does a fine job of describing
what made England different. And between them, England
and Holland led the way to the modern world. A lot of it
could have come about accidentally because of the way
that power in the 13th century between the king and the
nobles happened to have gotten shared.

> I take the opposite view. If the violence-loving
> people from a bunch of rainy islands on the Northwest
> of Europe could overcome much bigger and more populous
> nations like France and Spain,
>>>

I have read that the ability of the English gentry to get an education, work
hard, save, and marry later in life to younger women, was a major key to the
wealth and power that the English global empire eventually acquired.

Lee Corbin wrote:
Many times they were saved from conquest by inhabiting
an island. In a very parallel way, the Japanese were permitted
by geography to work out what turned out to be a very
powerful culture and country.
>>>

England was thought of as an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" during WWII.  I
enjoy playing the computer game, "Civilization," and I find each random game
is so much different depending on the geography.  When I am in the role
of the continental "devouring empire," things are so much easier when I
don't have to build a navy and invade & hold island neighbors.

In terms of being saved from conquest, I think the English learned early on
to be scrappy and quick thinking/fast on their feet, in a desperate at times
effort to stay unconquered from the Spanish, French, Germans, etc.  It's
only my opinion but I think the Norman invasion drastically changed the
England that might have been (much less involved with continental Europe,
generally less mercantile and expansionist).  We can thank/blame the Roman
Catholic Church up to a point for this event (the pope at the time strongly
supported the Norman invasion effort and gave it his official blessing, some
say King Harold of England lost his throne in part because he was
demoralized by the pope turning his back on him, Harold was said to be a
simple man of fairly deep religious faith).

John Grigg
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From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Apr 12 16:11:37 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:11:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "Lee Corbin" <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:03 AM

> ... *It's really too bad that we have no countries of any size left in the 
> world that are entirely free, in the sense that they compel their citizens 
> as little as did the U.S. of 1855.*

Why, of course ... back then, one could *choose* to be a slaveholder, or 
not.

Yessir, NO ONE could make you own slaves in 1855.

Ah, freedom!

Olga






From moulton at moulton.com  Sat Apr 12 17:53:06 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:53:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Performance enhancing
Message-ID: <1208022786.19224.188.camel@hayek>


Given the recent discussions of performance enhancing pharmaceuticals I
found this story about swim suits interesting.  Getting 1 or 2 percent
improvement from a swim suit has possibilities.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/11/lzr.record.breaking.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
or you can try the tiny url
http://tinyurl.com/6nb5ul

This and other factors might cause some rethinking about the
organization and function of some "sporting" events.  And when
considered in conjunction with the recent news of the demonstrations as
the Olympic torch heads to China it might be the case that some will
start to consider some other possibilities.  Making the Olympics not
organized on the basis of political entities might be an interesting
idea although not likely due to the vested interests in keeping the
current structure.

Fred






From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 18:42:50 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:42:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "Farewell to Alms" Links
Message-ID: <07ea01c89ccd$7fad6d40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Peter McCluskey has found five nice links about the book
"Fairwell to Alms" that might interest readers of this forum
My apologies if Peter or someone has already posted them.

> http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/09/a_farewell_to_a.html

I've finished that one, and agree with Caplan on most of the criticisms he
aims at Clark, though, so far, I don't think they affect Clark's major thesis.

> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/08/a-farewell-to-a.html
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/08/farewell-to-a-1.html
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/09/a-farewell-to-a.html
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/09/farewell-to-alm.html

Lee



From lists at lumen.nu  Sat Apr 12 20:12:14 2008
From: lists at lumen.nu (Joost Rekveld)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:12:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] bin Laden's background
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9F1D512F-7EC8-4738-BCC0-13D57DF7337A@lumen.nu>

it is often forgotten that Bin Laden was once actively supported by  
the Saudi government and even the cia:

<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a1980sosamacia&scale=0#a1980sosamacia>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a1979600million&scale=0#a1979600million>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a86kifahcenter&scale=0#a86kifahcenter>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a1980ssayyafafghan&scale=0#a1980ssayyafafghan>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a89sniperrifles&scale=0#a89sniperrifles>

ciao,

Joost.

On  12 Apr, 2008, at 5:05 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Crashed planes and family members... hmmm... J. G. Ballard could have
> invented this guy.
>
> <http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/ 
> 0,25197,23524543-5001986,00.html>
>
>


-------------------------------------------

                               Joost Rekveld
-----------    http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld

-------------------------------------------

"A is better off if B is better off.?

(Heinz von Foerster)

-------------------------------------------



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 20:44:54 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:44:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Boycotting as Protest
References: <1208022786.19224.188.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <081501c89cde$531c1040$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Fred wrote in "Performance Enhancing"

> This and other factors might cause some rethinking about the
> organization and function of some "sporting" events.  And when
> considered in conjunction with the recent news of the demonstrations as
> the Olympic torch heads to China it might be the case that some will
> start to consider some other possibilities.  Making the Olympics not
> organized on the basis of political entities might be an interesting
> idea although not likely due to the vested interests in keeping the
> current structure.

I would enjoy your and other people's opinions on this very much.
Every time in my life that I've tried to formulate some kind of
principle to cover whether or not to approve of protests via boycotting
supposedly international or non-partisan events, I find I cannot really
live with certain counter-examples.

People refused to shake Fritz Haber's hand at chemical conventions
after World War I.  Should bygones have been bygones?

The U.S. deliberately sabotaged economic development in the
U.S.S.R. in an especially clever and sinister way, by causing
their controversial pipeline to blow up in the greatest non-nuclear
man-made explosion ever (by insidious software).

One stated purpose of the Olympics should be to bring nations
together. At first glance, it seems horribly wrong to use things
like this for political purposes. On the other hand, consider 
China's treatment of Tibet!

Eleanor Roosevelt claimed that even before World War II it
would have been wrong to shake Adolph Hitler's hand. Really?
If I'd been her, I just could not have forced myself, even knowing
what I know, to be so discourteous, doubly-so to an important
head of state whose moods and resulting temperament may be
very, very important.

The world tried to hold up South Africa's economic development
via sanctions. If that was good, then was doing the same to Saddam
Hussein also good?

I just don't have any strong opinions one way or the other about
any of these. Do you?

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 20:51:16 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:51:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Made England Special?
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804120900n59a54c40g76f60a4e0150c69e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <081901c89cdf$074fa7c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

John Grigg writes

> Lee Corbin wrote:
> > The book "Farewell to Alms" does a fine job of describing
> > what made England different. And between them, England
> > and Holland led the way to the modern world. A lot of it
> > could have come about accidentally because of the way
> > that power in the 13th century between the king and the
> > nobles happened to have gotten shared.
> 
> I have read that the ability of the English gentry to get an
> education, work hard, save, and marry later in life to younger
> women, was a major key to the wealth and power that the
> English global empire eventually acquired.  

If they saved as you write, and it was after 1694 with the
creation of the Bank of England, then those savings could
indeed be one way in which you're proven right. France,
for example, was a much richer country in total, but the
cash was in people's mattresses, essentially, and it could
usually never must Britain's economic strength.

> In terms of being saved from conquest, I think the English
> learned early on to be scrappy and quick thinking/fast on
> their feet, in a desperate... effort to stay unconquered from
> the Spanish, French, Germans, etc.

I would bet that from our point of view, any nation that lasted
very long in the bad old days was "scrappy and quick 
thinking/fast on their feet".

> It's only my opinion but I think the Norman invasion drastically
> changed the England that might have been (much less involved
> with continental Europe, generally less mercantile and expansionist).

Could be.

> We can thank/blame the Roman Catholic Church up to a point for
> this event (the pope at the time strongly supported the Norman
> invasion effort and gave it his official blessing,

I didn't know that.  Thanks.

Lee

> some say King Harold of England lost his throne in part because
> he was demoralized by the pope turning his back on him, Harold
> was said to be a simple man of fairly deep religious faith.



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 21:05:05 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:05:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Olga writes

>> ... *It's really too bad that we have no countries of any size left in the 
>> world that are entirely free, in the sense that they compel their citizens 
>> as little as did the U.S. of 1855.*

Heh, heh.  I was referring to the context of free from government rule
and regulation, naturally, as you must have known.

> Why, of course ... back then, one could *choose* to be a
> slaveholder, or not.

You still can! Simply pick up your savings and go to certain places
in northern and eastern Africa, if you want to buy and own some
slaves.

It's terribly interesting to me that some people are vastly, vastly
more interested in condemning institutions dead nearly 150 years
ago (especially if it's an American or western past institution),
and seldom if ever criticize any non-western nation for the same
crimes, *taking place RIGHT NOW*.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 21:15:12 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:15:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bin Laden's background
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>
	<9F1D512F-7EC8-4738-BCC0-13D57DF7337A@lumen.nu>
Message-ID: <082a01c89ce2$893a2410$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

An excellent source praised from writers across the entire
political spectrum is "The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and
the Road to 9/11" by Lawrence Wright. His mini-biographies
of Bin Laden, Mohammed bin Laden (his father), and the
whole rather remarkable family are very thorough.

I was quite touched by the story of Qutb, who came to
America in 1948 to learn about it, lived in the small town
of Greeley, Colorado, and thought it paradise except for
the appalling behavior of the Americans who, though
very kind and polite, were so profane and sacrilegious
from his point of view. (And that was mid-west America
in the 1940s!)  Then he returned home, and wrote books
that started the whole thing off.

Lee

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joost Rekveld" <lists at lumen.nu>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] bin Laden's background


> it is often forgotten that Bin Laden was once actively supported by
> the Saudi government and even the cia:
>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a1980sosamacia&scale=0#a1980sosamacia>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a1979600million&scale=0#a1979600million>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a86kifahcenter&scale=0#a86kifahcenter>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a1980ssayyafafghan&scale=0#a1980ssayyafafghan>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a89sniperrifles&scale=0#a89sniperrifles>
>
> ciao,
>
> Joost.
>
> On  12 Apr, 2008, at 5:05 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>> Crashed planes and family members... hmmm... J. G. Ballard could have
>> invented this guy.
>>
>> <http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/
>> 0,25197,23524543-5001986,00.html>
>>
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
>                               Joost Rekveld
> -----------    http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> "A is better off if B is better off.?
>
> (Heinz von Foerster)
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Apr 12 21:05:18 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:05:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <mailman.75.1208016076.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.75.1208016076.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4801240E.6080305@lineone.net>

John Grigg asked:

Ben Zaiboc wrote:
 >>> >>>Funnily enough, i was just reading about this girl.

 > What is the source material that you base your comments on?
 > Is there a link you can give?

Afraid not.

It was in one of those gossip magazines lying around in an airport. The 
front page caught my eye because it mentioned a child genius who became 
a happy hooker, and i remembered spike talking about something similar, 
so i picked it up. I reckoned it had to be the same girl. (not my normal 
choice of reading material, but i was very bored!)

ben zaiboc


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 22:09:57 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:09:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] LA Times: A health message listeners can relate to
Message-ID: <29666bf30804121509u10f5e271r82172c676dd7476e@mail.gmail.com>

In the past, I've discussed the issue of communicating complicated or
confrontive concepts, like H+, to the general public.  Storytelling
works.  Instead of listening to their doctors or assimilating and
applying information from news sources (all of which they appear to
reject) what seems to hit these listeners where they live are the
stories about people just like them, battling the same diseases and
making crucial medical and lifestyle choices.  Living through these
character making the choices they themselves must make to survive,
they find the transition to better choices easier and fulfilling.

Talk about storytelling and empathy saving lives.

PJ

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-radio11apr11,1,764846.story

>From the Los Angeles Times
COLUMN ONE
A health message listeners can relate to
In the serialized radio drama 'BodyLove,' characters wrestle with
diabetes and high blood pressure along with traditional soap-opera
problems. They get through to audiences in a way doctors can't.
By Stephanie Simon
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

April 11, 2008

MARION, ALA. ? The doctors had been after Loretta Ragland for years to
keep her diabetes in check. Eat right. Exercise. Lose weight. She'd
heard it all time and again.

And ignored it all -- until she heard about Rosalyn.

Roz put off dealing with her diabetes so long, her kidneys gave out.
While she was in surgery, her husband died of a massive stroke --
after which it was revealed that he'd fathered a child with Roz's best
friend, Vanessa, whose alcoholic husband had recently run off, leaving
her to care for a suicidal daughter and an obese toddler.

Ragland first heard Roz and Vanessa bemoaning their plights on the
radio. She soon realized she was listening to fictional characters in
a drama.

No matter. She could identify.

Ragland, 57, cheered when Roz began taking exercise walks. Then she,
too, started walking around her hometown of Huntsville, in northern
Alabama. She gave up soda. She joined a gym. She quit sweets in
solidarity with Vanessa.

"When I heard it from a doctor, I wouldn't really listen," Ragland
said. "But when I heard it on the show, I was like, 'Wow, maybe there
is something to this.' "

That response is exactly what public-health professor Connie Kohler
hoped for when she created the serialized radio drama "BodyLove" (also
the name of Vanessa's beauty salon).

In weekly 15-minute episodes -- crammed with schemes, dreams and
cliffhangers -- two extended families wrestle with a slew of health
problems while trying to navigate prickly relationships and cope with
financial strains.

Written by students and faculty at the University of Alabama, the show
targets African Americans, who struggle with many of these health
crises in disproportionate numbers. Across Alabama, for instance, 35%
of black women are obese, compared with 20% of white women. The
diabetes death rate for blacks is more than double that for whites.

"BodyLove's" characters face those odds with more frustration than
courage. They give in to cravings for burgers. They resist taking
insulin. They quit smoking, then backslide; lose weight, then regain
it.

In short, they sound real -- like your best friend, like you -- and
not like authorities lecturing from on high.

"We didn't want it to be a PBS thing," said Alex Urquhart, a creative
writing major who helped develop several scripts.

The characters make progress through modest lifestyle changes. No one
goes vegan or runs marathons -- they refrain from buying a tub of ice
cream, or get out for a walk twice a week.

Local hosts of the show also stress practical steps to better health.
Here in Marion, a small town in central Alabama, registered nurse
Frances Ford modifies her on-air nutrition tips to suit local budgets.
Nearly one-third of county residents live in poverty.

"Olive oil is the best, but it's more expensive, so we tell them
canola oil is better than vegetable oil," she said after a recent
broadcast.

Longtime listener Josephine Brand, who had come to the studio to pick
up a "BodyLove" T-shirt, looked crestfallen.

"I use vegetable oil," she said. "Or that Crisco."

"Try baking your dinner, with seasoning on it," Ford suggested.

Brand nodded. She'd tried some low-fat recipes, she said, and had lost
a little weight.

Encouraged, Ford pressed: "Now that you have the 'BodyLove' T-shirt,
you've got to start walking." Brand, 53, promised she would.

The first 80 episodes of "BodyLove" aired between 2003 and 2007. After
a fundraising break, Kohler and her partners are now writing and
producing several new episodes, which will air after local stations
cycle through reruns.

The "BodyLove" team is also working on a new radio drama with snappy
three-minute episodes. Focused on obesity and funded in part by the
National Institutes of Health, the soap opera will be marketed to
urban stations in cities with large black populations,such as Los
Angeles, Miami and Washington, D.C.

Kohler is also working on two soap operas about teen pregnancy -- one
in Spanish -- for distribution in Iowa.

The concept of soap opera as a vehicle for social change has been
around for decades. In Mexico, China, Pakistan, Kenya and other
developing nations, wildly popular TV dramas have taught generations
about issues such as AIDS, addiction, sexual assault and adult
illiteracy.

"This is a model that's been so successful in other countries, I
wonder why we aren't seeing more of it here," said Pauline M. Seitz,
who directs a matching-grant program under the Robert Wood Johnson
Foundation, which supports public-health initiatives.

"We all learn through stories," Seitz said. "We're captivated by them,
moved by them, motivated by them."

Seitz approved a grant of nearly $250,000 over three years to launch BodyLove.

Local donors matched that sum -- in exchange for some input on plot twists.

After the Alabama Eye Bank put up funding, for instance, one character
found herself in need of a cornea transplant. "It can end up being a
little forced," said Lee Shackleford, the lead writer and a
playwright-in-residence at the University of Alabama.

The dialogue, though, usually rings true -- especially in the hands of
the seasoned cast, which includes professional and amateur actors
under the direction of the university's theater department chairman.

Vanessa's son grumbles that her healthy meals -- cooked with less oil
-- taste like cardboard. Her mother pushes aside dread at finding a
lump in her breast with a brisk "I don't have time for this nonsense."

When her daughter, Maya, sinks into depression, Vanessa is not sure
how to react. Her mother advises the family not to take Maya's
lethargy seriously: "Maybe it's OK for white girls up in Hollywood,
but we need to be strong."

The drama hooked Ragland so completely, she began leaving work early
on Mondays so she wouldn't miss a minute of the soap opera. She took
to driving to the gym while listening to "BodyLove"; Roz's woes, she
found, make for a good motivational tool.

"BodyLove" is broadcast on half a dozen stations across Alabama, as
well as in Atlanta and Jackson, Miss. It has just been picked up in
Port St. Lucie, Fla., and negotiations are underway in Tacoma, Wash.

The stations that air "BodyLove" tend to be small and locally owned;
they can't afford to subscribe to Arbitron for official audience
ratings. But station managers report strong interest.

Here in Marion, "BodyLove" airs on a gospel station, drawing an
audience of about 20,000 across nearly two dozen counties.

The Marion station, WJUS-AM, operates out of a dingy trailer plunked
down in a field of weeds. Each Wednesday a few minutes before 8 a.m.,
Ford, the registered nurse, bustles in, puts on a clunky set of
headphones and tugs a small microphone toward herself. "As you drink
your coffee or your tea, as you get ready for your day," she says,
"I'm glad you're tuning in to 'BodyLove.' "

Midway through the soap opera, Ford breaks for announcements from the
county health department, mentioning a group fitness walk or free
blood-pressure screening. At the end, she stays on the air another 10
to 15 minutes to answer questions.

Over the years, "BodyLove" has built a sense of community and
camaraderie among listeners, as though they're all sitting around
Vanessa's salon. When they call in, few have questions for Ford.
Mostly, they just want to chat.

"Do you have any advice for Vanessa?" Ford asked one morning after an
episode exploring that character's mounting stress.

"I don't," a female caller responded. "But I'm sure getting fat. I'm
going to go out on the walking trail and start exercising."

Ford, beaming, broke into applause.

She knows many of her regulars by name. ("I bet you this is Miss Mary
Ann Johnson," she told one caller. She was wrong. It was Miss
Johnson's twin sister.)

Ford keeps tabs on her callers' weight. She nags them to get their
blood pressure checked. She delights in hearing how "BodyLove" has
changed their habits.

After an episode about the health benefits of "naked chicken" --
stripped of its fatty Southern-fried skin -- William Smith, 63, called
in to boast that he'd told his wife to roast their Thanksgiving turkey
instead of frying it. Ford was so proud, she recently made an on-air
plea for him to call back and tell the story again.

Bertha Kennie, another regular caller, credits "BodyLove" with
teaching her to read nutrition labels for sodium and sugar content.

"I never hardly paid any attention before," she said. "Just pulled
what I wanted off the shelf."

Kennie, 72, is fairly sure that some doctor, somewhere, must have told
her to watch the salt. "But doctors say a lot of things," she said,
"and sometimes it just rolls right off you, like water off a duck's
back." The show, on the other hand, makes her sit up and listen: "You
get real into it."

When she feels like complaining about her own burdens, Kennie thinks
of poor Vanessa or Roz or Maya.

"You don't feel like the Lord's picking on you," she said, "because
you realize everyone has problems."

The characters' travails have even affected the actors who give them voice.

"I don't eat as much fried chicken anymore. I take the skin off," said
James McCarty II, a regular on the show.

Then he flashed a sheepish grin.

He hasn't turned into a health nut, he admitted. It would be bad for
his career. His other regular gig: making commercials for McDonald's.

stephanie.simon at latimes.com


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Apr 12 23:16:15 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:16:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "Lee Corbin" <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> It's terribly interesting to me that some people are vastly, vastly
> more interested in condemning institutions dead nearly 150 years
> ago (especially if it's an American or western past institution),
> and seldom if ever criticize any non-western nation for the same
> crimes, *taking place RIGHT NOW*.

Well, I'm certainly not one of them - I try to criticize (as well as give 
praise) as appropriate.  But that's me - I'm an equal opportunity dragon 
lady.

Your remark about "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take 
into account de jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the 
1960s, and many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those 
institutions are interrelated - and not all dead.

Not that they're exempt from condemnation, but many "non-western nations" 
out there now don't pretend to be democracies - we USAmericans are (and 
were) supposed to be a democracy.  That put us then (and puts us now) at a 
different, and higher, standard.

I am an immigrant (and naturalized citizen) of the USA.  I like it here.  I 
can't think of any other place I'd rather live.  I like the idea of "nation 
of nations" that we have going here.  I would like to see this country 
strive for greatness - but, in looking at the past, you're not going to find 
it (IMHO).

To garble a phrase Quentin Crisp used in The Naked Civil Servant:  There was 
no great shining country (and no shining city on the hill, either - except 
in Ronald Reagan movies).

Olga



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 02:23:08 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:23:08 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
>  a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
>  government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
>  longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other
>  reason the U.S. has a much longer history.

Have a look at this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

The index rates corruption among public officials and politicians. A
quick look at the list suggests that corruption varies inversely as
per capita wealth. There doesn't seem to be much correlation with how
"socialistic" a country is. I expect that a ranking of corruption in
private enterprise would come out very similar.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 02:36:44 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:36:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480171BC.7070405@mac.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On 12/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
>>  a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
>>  government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
>>  longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other
>>  reason the U.S. has a much longer history.
>>     
>
> Have a look at this article:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
>
> The index rates corruption among public officials and politicians. A
> quick look at the list suggests that corruption varies inversely as
> per capita wealth. There doesn't seem to be much correlation with how
> "socialistic" a country is. I expect that a ranking of corruption in
> private enterprise would come out very similar.
>
>
>   

I have a suspicion that the index varies inversely with the percentage 
of a country's wealth that is owned or controlled by the government and 
how much government permission and favor must be sought.   If there is 
nothing much in government hands to buy, bribe, enter into conspiracy 
with government officials then corruption should drop rapidly.   
Governments put the Mafia to shame and are often more ill-tempered.

- samantha




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr 13 03:42:17 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:42:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Egan free
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080412223956.023515f0@satx.rr.com>

Greg Egan's "Dark Integers," a sequel to "Luminous," is available for 
free download at the ASIMOV'S website:

http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0805/DarkINtegers.shtml

It's up for a Hugo, is why.

Damien Broderick



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 03:51:14 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:51:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
	<059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <48018332.50203@mac.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
> Kevin wrote
>
>   
>> Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is
>> what has caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place.
>> People no longer saw nor cared what they were being
>> charged because someone else was paying the bill so
>> the market forces controlling costs were removed.
>> It's the cost of BS we all pay. 
>>     
>
> YES!  And do you know how in the United States all
> that BS came about?  
>
> In World War II the U.S. government in its wisdom
> decided that it could do better than the free market
> in distributing various good, e.g. gasoline. So instead
> of (via tax monies) simply bidding up the price of
> gas so as to keep the troops sufficiently provisioned,
> an idiotic rationing system was employed, which was
> not nearly so efficient.
>
>   
It was also in WW II that they came up with that other "temporary" 
'efficiency' of having all employers contribute free labor to withhold 
taxes on pay day and send them to the government.  The government has 
been growing tremendously ever since.

> At the same time, the government passed laws decreeing
> certain wage and price controls.  (The last time our
> ingenious government tried that was the 1973 "oil
> embargo" event, so miscalled by people who fail
> to realize that the higher prices necessitated by the
> times would have rationed the gas infinitely better
> than the "gas lines" and shortages that inevitably
> occurred.
>
>   
Now they do wage and price controls by more indirect means like 
inflating the money supply and juggling tax 'loopholes'.  :-)


> Naturally, such meddling in the market has unforeseen
> consequences. Companies (especially those working in
> the war-related industries) still had to reward success
> and reward those employees who contributed the most.
> But thanks to the new government regulations, they
> couldn't simply be *paid* more.

Or in the case of unions, paid less for less than stellar performance.
>   So loopholes were
> created---for example, the company could provide
> "company funded insurance". These loopholes did
> provide a sneaky way to attract and reward employees,
> but at the sacrifice of some market inefficiency.
>
> Far worse were the long term consequences. From then
> on, medical "insurance" (which soon took on very un-
> insurance type attributes) and other fringe benefits were
> abetted by the government, which didn't tax those benefits.
> And that's how it all started.
>
>   
So not taking money from the company and its workers amounts to 
'abetting' or interference with free enterprise?   Hmm.

> Then, seeing the spiraling medical costs (as the final consumers,
> the end users, were separated from those who actually paid,
> that is the insurance companies), and seeing what damage had
> been done, do you suppose that a rollback of the extremely
> damaging government regulations was considered?
Actually more harm was when government got into the act more directly 
with Medicare, Medicaid and the attendant heavy regulations applied to 
the practice of medicine.    When government starts telling doctors how 
to practice and relate to their patients and when government promises so 
much that it will bankrupt generations to pay for it all then all sanity 
is gone.


>   NOT 
> FOR A MOMENT!  It was indeed thought that the answer
> was *more regulation*, more artificial ways to disengage
> the end users of services from those who paid for them.
>
> So the HMOs were invented. And each such step since has
> resulted in a bigger mess, and more and more outrageous
> and ridiculous medical prices and charges.
>
>   
>> For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to
>> the ER at 3 am because she had a nosebleed that started at
>> 9pm and hadn't stopped. We waited 3 hours, then saw
>> a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a small
>> tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for
>> the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out
>> of curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the
>> 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was
>> another $300 worth of supplies and such.
>>     

> That is predictably what will happen without the discipline
> of the market place.  How could the American government
> as late as 1971 (!) have believed in price controls?  How
> in the world as late as 2008 can people still reflexively 
> reject market mechanisms and price signals?
>   
Yep.

>   
>> I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error
>> and they said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical
>> device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was
>> supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which
>> would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in
>> insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the
>> thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding
>> was obviously gone.
>>     
>
> If you told them later what you had done, they would have
> been speechless with astonishment.  Why, they would
> wonder, had you tried doing that?  After all, they would
> have done it *for free*!
>
>   
>> I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue.
>> If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more
>> into medical school
>>     
>
> It's enough to make me gag.  *Allowing* more into whatever.
> And this in a supposedly free country.
>
>   
The AMA has consistently acted to limit the number of doctors officially 
licensed and allowed to practice medicine.     This country is not 
remotely free in so very many ways and becoming less so all the time.

>> or  allowing  practicing nurses to  do more would be in
>> order and help to drive some of these costs down.
>>     
>
> Why?  To whose benefit (beside the remote tax payer, of
> course) would such accrue?
>   
To everyone's benefit.  Doctors could concentrate more on cases that 
actually require their expertise.  Nurses could practice more of what 
they know.  Costs would be lower regardless of direct and indirect 
arrangement of payers.  Visits would be more timely and brief.  What's 
not to like?

>   
>> I think that the free market isn't working because the
>> market is not free.
>>     
>
> Exactly right.
>
>   
Yes.




From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 04:04:00 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:04:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
 Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48018630.2020902@mac.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
> I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on it,
>   
When the alternative is to rely on taking money from people by force 
then yes, I do want to rely on private funding.  However, calling it 
charity is quite mistaken.  Private persons, groups, corporations and so 
on are more than capable of understanding the vast importance of 
scientific research.   If you don't have government taking much of their 
wealth by force then I suspect you would see a great deal more private 
funding.

> and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it?
Is it a success of people donating their time and money to what they 
believe is important rather than having their time and money looted by 
politicians to support whatever the politicians think is important?   
Why is there this assumption that the politicians are any more wise or 
benevolent or capable than the people who earned the money the 
politicians took in taxation?   Isn't the evidence in the US of the 
government taking 40 - 50% of all wealth and still running deficits so 
large we are in hock for decades into the future quite clear that 
government is not the solution?


>  The main
> purpose of taxation is to pay for that which the taxpayers consider
> worthwhile but which the free market won't provide, or won't
> efficiently and fairly provide. Charity is fickle and degrading; when
> I'm given something I want it to be because I'm entitled to it.
>
>   
If the "taxpayers" aka people consider it important they are free 
[without taxes] to form whatever organization and money pools they wish 
to finance these things.   It doesn't get easier by having government 
coercively collect funds.  It becomes a lot harder.

Receiving money that was voluntarily paid for your efforts is more 
degrading than receiving money coerced by threat of imprisonment?  Come 
again?

- samantha



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 04:18:01 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:18:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Egan free
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080412223956.023515f0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080412223956.023515f0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804122318.01656.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 12 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Greg Egan's "Dark Integers," a sequel to "Luminous," is available for
> free download at the ASIMOV'S website:
>
> http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0805/DarkINtegers.shtml
>
> It's up for a Hugo, is why.

Luminous is on my shelf, in a treasured spot.

It all started out as a joke. Argument for argument's sake. Alison and 
her infuriating heresies. 


"A mathematical theorem," she'd proclaimed, "only becomes true when a 
physical system tests it out: when the system's behaviour depends in 
some way on the theorem being true or false. 


It was June 1994. We were sitting in a small paved courtyard, having 
just emerged from the final lecture in a one-semester course on the 
philosophy of mathematics - a bit of light relief from the hard grind 
of the real stuff. We had fifteen minutes to to kill before meeting 
some friends for lunch. It was a social conversation - verging on mild 
flirtation - nothing more. Maybe there were demented academics, lurking 
in dark crypts somewhere, who held views on the nature of mathematical 
truth which they were willing to die for. But were were twenty years 
old, and we knew it was all angels on the head of a pin. 


I said, "Physical systems don't create mathematics. Nothing creates 
mathematics - it's timeless. All of number theory would still be 
exactly the same, even if the universe contained nothing but a single 
electron." 


Alison snorted. "Yes, because even one electron, plus a space-time to 
put it in, needs all of quantum mechanics and all of general 
relativity - and all the mathematical infrastructure they entail. One 
particle floating in a quantum vacuum needs half the major results of 
group theory, functional analysis, differential geometry - " 


"OK, OK! I get the point. But if that's the case... the events in the 
first picosecond after the Big Bang would have `constructed' every last 
mathematical truth required by any physical system, all the way to the 
Big Cruch. Once you've got the mathematics which underpins the Theory 
of Everything... that's it, that's all you ever need. End of story." 


"But it's not. To apply the Theory of Everything to a particular system, 
you still need all the mathematics for dealing with that system - which 
could include results far beyond the mathematics the TOE itself 
requires. I mean, fifteen billion years after the Big Bang, someone can 
still come along and prove, say... Fermat's Last Theorem." Andrew Wiles 
at Princeton had recently announced a proof of the famous conjecture, 
although his work was still being scrutinised by his colleagues, and 
the final verdict wasn't yet in. "Physics never needed that before." 


I protested, "What do you mean, `before'? Fermat's Last Theorem never 
has - and never will - have anything to do with any branch of physics." 


Alison smiled sneakily. "No branch, no. But only because the class of 
physical systems whose behaviour depend on it is so ludicrously 
specific: the brains of mathematicians who are trying to validate the 
Wiles proof." 


"Think about it. Once you start trying to prove a theorem, then even if 
the mathematics is so `pure' that it has no relevance to any other 
object in the universe... you've just made it relevant to yourself. You 
have to choose some physical process to test the theorem - whether you 
use a computer, or a pen and paper... or just close your eyes and 
shuffle neurotransmitters. There's no such thing as a proof which 
doesn't rely on physical events, and whether they're inside or outside 
your skull doesn't make them any less real."

Found originally at:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week123.html

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 04:17:10 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:17:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] rice price
In-Reply-To: <000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080328232852.0243e6f0@satx.rr.com>
	<000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>
Message-ID: <48018946.4070501@mac.com>

scerir wrote:
> Damien wrote:
>   
>> Uh-oh:
>> LONDON and BANGKOK -- Rice prices jumped 30 per cent to an all-time
>> high on Thursday, raising fears of fresh outbreaks of social unrest
>> across Asia where the grain is a staple food for more than 2.5bn people.
>> The increase came after Egypt, a leading exporter, imposed a formal
>> ban on selling rice abroad to keep local prices down, and the
>> Philippines announced plans for a major purchase of the grain in the
>> international market to boost supplies. Global rice stocks are at
>> their lowest since 1976.
>>     
>
>
> It seems there are riots around the world because of rising 
> prices. An Egyptian daily newspaper reports that 12,000 
> people have been arrested for selling flour on 
> the black market. Rice prices, meanwhile, rocketed 
> from just over $200 per ton last October to $430 
> at the end of March. The government responded on April 1 
> by suspending rice exports for six months.
>   
All the "softs" are pretty much doing the same thing.  Wheat is out of 
sight.  Oil/energy cost in the food production cycle are a large part of 
it.  In the case of corn the idiotic push by the US government to make 
it a source of fuel did not help.  A lot of extra planting of corn 
occurred that in some cases resulted in less of other crops.   Real 
inflation of the money supply and loosening of critical interest rates 
play a large role.

This is a pretty scary development although not entirely unexpected.  
Check your grocery bills and if you are diligent compare them to what 
you paid a year ago.   It is not just an effect elsewhere. 

- samantha



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 11:33:16 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:33:16 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804130433hb6759bfg40ae3329029890bd@mail.gmail.com>

On 13/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>  > On 12/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >> There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
>  >>  a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
>  >>  government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
>  >>  longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other
>  >>  reason the U.S. has a much longer history.
>  >
>  > Have a look at this article:
>  >
>  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
>
> I have a suspicion that the index varies inversely with the percentage
>  of a country's wealth that is owned or controlled by the government and
>  how much government permission and favor must be sought.   If there is
>  nothing much in government hands to buy, bribe, enter into conspiracy
>  with government officials then corruption should drop rapidly.
>  Governments put the Mafia to shame and are often more ill-tempered.

That's not how the list reads. Most of the countries near the top are
high taxing, high regulation. And I suspect that private enterprise
corruption and inefficiency is directly proportional to government
corruption and inefficiency. Do you think the Danish Government is
more likely to rip you off than a private firm (the only sort) in
Somalia, the libertarian paradise?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 12:37:45 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:37:45 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <48018630.2020902@mac.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 13/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>  >
>  > I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on it,
>  >
>
> When the alternative is to rely on taking money from people by force
>  then yes, I do want to rely on private funding.  However, calling it
>  charity is quite mistaken.  Private persons, groups, corporations and so
>  on are more than capable of understanding the vast importance of
>  scientific research.   If you don't have government taking much of their
>  wealth by force then I suspect you would see a great deal more private
>  funding.

More private funding for private profit. Where's the profit in, say,
particle physics? There will probably always be some funding for basic
science but it will regarded in the same way as funding orphanages in
third world countries.

>  > and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it?
>
>  Is it a success of people donating their time and money to what they
>  believe is important rather than having their time and money looted by
>  politicians to support whatever the politicians think is important?
>  Why is there this assumption that the politicians are any more wise or
>  benevolent or capable than the people who earned the money the
>  politicians took in taxation?   Isn't the evidence in the US of the
>  government taking 40 - 50% of all wealth and still running deficits so
>  large we are in hock for decades into the future quite clear that
>  government is not the solution?

Much of the money collected is wasted. It would be better if this
money were left in the hands of the taxpayers or spent on worthwhile
projects that private enterprise won't touch. The taxpayers are the
customers and shareholders and they have to make decisions as to what
to do with their money. If the decision is a bad one then the country
will falter and other countries which tax higher, lower or better will
prevail.

>  Receiving money that was voluntarily paid for your efforts is more
>  degrading than receiving money coerced by threat of imprisonment?  Come
>  again?

If my house burns down my insurance company will pay to build me a
replacement. This is despite the fact that I may only have paid a few
hundred dollars in premiums: the deal was that if it burns down, they
will pay, and I don't feel guilty about taking the money from all the
other policyholders whose houses don't burn down. Similarly, the deal
in the country where I live is that if I earn income I will pay a
proportion of it to the Government, and in return I will receive
certain services if I need them. I know that this is the deal so I
should feel neither guilty if I get back more than I contribute nor
aggrieved if I contribute more than I get back.

You will doubtless point out that I am free not to insure my house but
that isn't always an option. If I live in an apartment building I will
be forced to pay my share for insurance and other maintenance costs,
simply because the majority of the other owners have voted that way.
If I don't pay I may be taken to court, and if I still refuse to pay I
may be imprisoned, or my assets forcibly seized. My only recourse is
to sell the apartment and move elsewhere. But it might be very
difficult for me to do that for any number of reasons, and in any case
if I move elsewhere I might encounter the same fees and regulations:
which is exactly the same problem I have if I consider moving to
another country because I don't like the laws and taxation.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 13:29:54 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:29:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

>  Your remark about "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take
>  into account de jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the
>  1960s, and many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those
>  institutions are interrelated - and not all dead.

### But given the context of this discussion - note that the Jim Crow
laws were enacted by, guess what, the government. So the high
likelihood that immoral laws would be enacted because of regulatory
capture is another argument *against* the government. In case of
slavery, regulatory capture was achieved by a minority of wealthy
landowners who maintained the system long after it became unpopular
among the majority of Southern population. Slavery wouldn't have
survived as long as it did if not for the existence of the US
government.

Rafal

>
>  Not that they're exempt from condemnation, but many "non-western nations"
>  out there now don't pretend to be democracies - we USAmericans are (and
>  were) supposed to be a democracy.  That put us then (and puts us now) at a
>  different, and higher, standard.
>
>  I am an immigrant (and naturalized citizen) of the USA.  I like it here.  I
>  can't think of any other place I'd rather live.  I like the idea of "nation
>  of nations" that we have going here.  I would like to see this country
>  strive for greatness - but, in looking at the past, you're not going to find
>  it (IMHO).
>
>  To garble a phrase Quentin Crisp used in The Naked Civil Servant:  There was
>  no great shining country (and no shining city on the hill, either - except
>  in Ronald Reagan movies).
>
>  Olga
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  extropy-chat mailing list
>  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Chief Clinical Officer,
Gencia Corporation
706 B Forest St.

Charlottesville, VA 22903

tel: (434) 295-4800

fax: (434) 295-4951



This electronic message transmission contains information from the
biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or
privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the
individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have
received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by
telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail
(fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately.


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 14:44:51 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:44:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804130744o260c18aaw1946f2cf51fa814@mail.gmail.com>

Stathis wrote:
A lot of government research spending has been into war-making
techniques, especially in the US and the Soviet Union. That's bad, but
it doesn't negate the fact that most of the outstanding scientific
discoveries of the past century have been funded by government,
usually directly but even if you take into account outstanding private
institutions such as Bell Labs, at least indirectly through the public
education system.
>>>

I think that while war is a very ugly thing, scientific spinoffs from
military research have been hugely beneficial to society in general.  It's
sort of a sad irony attached to the human condition.  But finding new and
better ways to kill (or defend from being killed/conquered/bullied, human
distrust of the other is a giant component to this) is a much larger
priority than discovering better ways to heal and extend life.  I keep on
wistfully pondering how just a tiny miniscule fraction of the funds spent on
the U.S. war in the Middle East could pay for Aubrey de Grey's entire
longterm anti-aging research project.

he continues:
As for propaganda and the space program, so what? It's a tragedy that
the propaganda appeal of manned space flight wore off after the first
few moon landings. Do you see private entrepreneurs stepping in with a
few trillion to colonise Mars or the asteroids?
>>>

We are not at that step yet, but will be in time.  Please remember, many say
the moonlanding was a couple decades ahead of schedule from what it probably
would have been without a cold war competition spurring the United States to
action.  I see hope for manned space flight between Richard Branson, Robert
Bigelow, Burt Rutan, etc., in the private sector and Nasa's next generation
launch vehicles like the "Ares" being prepared to replace the aging space
shuttle fleet.

Frankly, I'm very excited about the new generation of spacecraft being
readied by Nasa.  I had expected a "futuristic" version of the old shuttle
to be the heir apparent, but instead a "retro/tried and true" approach was
chosen.

Ares I, Crew Launch Vehicle

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/ares/aresI.html

Ares V, Cargo Launch Vehicle

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/ares/aresI.html


John Grigg  : )
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 16:30:53 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:30:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <4801240E.6080305@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.75.1208016076.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4801240E.6080305@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804130930y330dccd3if84051586aa0f9b8@mail.gmail.com>

Ben wrote/quoted from the magazine interview:
"I don't see it as a terrible thing. It's something I drifted into by
chance. I never judged girls who worked as escorts and was always
fascinated by it. There is this huge stigma attached to escorting but I
don't see it like that"

"I'm still young and I can't decide on what I want to do in the future.
My escorting work provides me with a fabulous life and I don't want to
give it up just yet."

"I have a nice life - I don't want for anything and I'm in control. I
haven't had much freedom in my life and I'm enjoying it."

Doesn't sound like someone with horrific emotional and self-esteem
problems to me!

More like an extremely intelligent girl who's decided to take control of
her own life and do what she wants to do. More power to her, I say.
>>>

Well..., I suppose then she was not the horribly exploited/totally
self-destructive woman I had envisioned.  It's sounds like her life was more
along the lines of Ashley Dupre.  I had thought the former Oxford
student was more of a "low-end" hooker and for many of them life is hell.
But in the links that Spike gave, it was clear that both of the young women
came from very broken/dysfunctional homes.  I wonder how many high-end
prostitutes come from happy families? hmmm...  It would make for an
interesting study.

Spike wrote:
I just don't get it.  A harlot with whom one could actually carry on
meaningful conversation (possibly even about mathematics!) and yet no
premium pricetag?  Someone do explain.
>>>

It does seem strange.  Perhaps the former Oxford student does not/did not
have a full understanding of her full market value if she went after the
right customer demographic.  But this also might be a sign of hidden low
self-esteem.  I'm not so sure she is the happy and self-actualizing person
you take her for.

Ben wrote:
My impression is that she is definitely not messed-up, and has not been
driven to 'degrade herself' (do you regard prostitution, per se, to be a
degrading career?).
>>>

I think even at the high-end of prostitution, it is for many women (at least
to some extent) a distasteful thing (depending in part on the
customer/situation).  Perhaps there are some women who have a personal
psychology that allows them to find the work engaging and even fun.  I would
say despite even the "glitter" of high-end prostitution, it is at some
level degrading.  Perhaps I am an old-fashioned romantic who believes sex
should be between two people with real feelings of deep affection/love (or
at least lust!) between them.  I suspect a century from now we will see a
publicly accepted and updated version of the ancient Greek Hetaira (many
current politicians would love to see that day!, lol).  I wonder to what
extent academics have explored the world of prostitution (especially at the
high-end).  What I mainly know of the topic is about the poor benighted
street walkers.

John
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr 13 16:36:06 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:36:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] rice price
In-Reply-To: <48018946.4070501@mac.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080328232852.0243e6f0@satx.rr.com>
	<000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>
	<48018946.4070501@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1208104669_4391@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:17 PM 4/12/2008, samantha wrote:
>scerir wrote:
> > Damien wrote:
> >
> >> Uh-oh:
> >> LONDON and BANGKOK -- Rice prices jumped 30 per cent to an all-time
> >> high on Thursday, raising fears of fresh outbreaks of social unrest
> >> across Asia where the grain is a staple food for more than 2.5bn people.
> >> The increase came after Egypt, a leading exporter, imposed a formal
> >> ban on selling rice abroad to keep local prices down, and the
> >> Philippines announced plans for a major purchase of the grain in the
> >> international market to boost supplies. Global rice stocks are at
> >> their lowest since 1976.
> >>
> > It seems there are riots around the world because of rising
> > prices. An Egyptian daily newspaper reports that 12,000
> > people have been arrested for selling flour on
> > the black market. Rice prices, meanwhile, rocketed
> > from just over $200 per ton last October to $430
> > at the end of March. The government responded on April 1
> > by suspending rice exports for six months.
> >
>All the "softs" are pretty much doing the same thing.  Wheat is out of
>sight.  Oil/energy cost in the food production cycle are a large part of
>it.  In the case of corn the idiotic push by the US government to make
>it a source of fuel did not help.  A lot of extra planting of corn
>occurred that in some cases resulted in less of other crops.   Real
>inflation of the money supply and loosening of critical interest rates
>play a large role.
>
>This is a pretty scary development although not entirely unexpected.
>Check your grocery bills and if you are diligent compare them to what
>you paid a year ago.   It is not just an effect elsewhere.

This is the expected effect of $100 oil.  We are far out on the curve 
of diminishing returns.  Unless a new source of energy replaces oil 
in a relatively short period of time, an awful number of people will starve.

Things are so tightly interwoven it is hard to say what effect this 
will have on you personally.  The electric power will probably stay 
up, but travel by air might become to expensive for most people.

Keith 



From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Apr 13 18:32:58 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was:  Health system, again)
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>


>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> 
>> wrote:
>> (in answer to a previous post of Lee Corbin's)  Your remark about 
>> "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take into account de 
>> jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the  1960s, and 
>> many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those  institutions 
>> are interrelated - and not all dead.

> ### But given the context of this discussion - note that the Jim Crow laws 
> were enacted by, guess what, the government. So the high likelihood that 
> immoral laws would be enacted because of regulatory capture is another 
> argument *against* the government. In case of slavery, regulatory capture 
> was achieved by a minority of wealthy landowners who maintained the system 
> long after it became unpopular among the majority of Southern population. 
> Slavery wouldn't have survived as long as it did if not for the existence 
> of the US government.

If you are counting in the opinion of the slaves themselves, perhaps a case 
could be made that slavery was unpopular - but slavery was quite accepted 
and popular by "the majority of [White] Southern population."  (I suppose 
apologists for the Confederacy would like to have one think otherwise ...).

And it wasn't only the "minority of wealthy landowners" who profited from 
slavery- early America's economy grew and prospered greatly from slavery 
(free labor! free labor! how can any economic system beat that?) .

In so-called third-world countries where one finds slavery in the world 
these days, one also finds weak and ineffectual governments.  What does this 
say about the role of government?  What does this indicate about leaving 
things to the whimsies of "the people?" (IMHO, without the intervention of 
some sort of human rights legislation, one cannot make a good case for 
leaving things to "human nature" ... can you?)

Olga

> Rafal
>
>>
>>  Not that they're exempt from condemnation, but many "non-western 
>> nations"
>>  out there now don't pretend to be democracies - we USAmericans are (and
>>  were) supposed to be a democracy.  That put us then (and puts us now) at 
>> a
>>  different, and higher, standard.
>>
>>  I am an immigrant (and naturalized citizen) of the USA.  I like it here. 
>> I
>>  can't think of any other place I'd rather live.  I like the idea of 
>> "nation
>>  of nations" that we have going here.  I would like to see this country
>>  strive for greatness - but, in looking at the past, you're not going to 
>> find
>>  it (IMHO).
>>
>>  To garble a phrase Quentin Crisp used in The Naked Civil Servant:  There 
>> was
>>  no great shining country (and no shining city on the hill, either - 
>> except
>>  in Ronald Reagan movies).
>>
>>  Olga
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  extropy-chat mailing list
>>  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
> Chief Clinical Officer,
> Gencia Corporation
> 706 B Forest St.
>
> Charlottesville, VA 22903
>
> tel: (434) 295-4800
>
> fax: (434) 295-4951
>
>
>
> This electronic message transmission contains information from the
> biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or
> privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the
> individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use
> of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have
> received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by
> telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail
> (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 11:04:57 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:04:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804130744o260c18aaw1946f2cf51fa814@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804130744o260c18aaw1946f2cf51fa814@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804150404j78cf606cmdc28f2ef5d460c2d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 4:44 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that while war is a very ugly thing, scientific spinoffs from
> military research have been hugely beneficial to society in general.

Whatever one may think of First and Second and Cold War, they have
corresponded to periods of accelerated technological progress. Much of
that progress needed not even being "spinned off", as for instance
transportation, communication, information or energy technological
breakthrough are immediately applicable to both the military and civil
sectors.

Stefano Vaj


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 15 11:41:44 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:41:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
Message-ID: <00cf01c89eed$b5e37680$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Olga and Rafal both make good points.

But I've been meaning to address something else for a while.  Earlier this
year someone here opined that the main reason that slavery was
ended in the west was that it was becoming economically unviable.

In fact, it was a moral revolution among people mainly in Brittain,
and to a lesser extent in the U.S.  At no trifling cost, the British
people supported their navy in the early 1800s patroling up and
down the African coast. Slavery was ended in the West because
those people (yessss, I'll dare say it, the most culturally advanced
in the world at the time), reviled it.  

And a bit later, it could be said that the Abolitionists in the U.S.
caused the War Between the States.

Lee


From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 15 13:34:57 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:34:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <792932.93861.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee,

I've taken a while to ponder on these issues and work out exactly what i want to say in the way that will encourage least confusion. Hopefully, this time, i will succeed!

Lee says

>> I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving
>> what something looks like outside of perception.
>
>I'm not really talking about perception *at all*.  You brought
>it up.

...and...

>I'm not interested in appearance either!  :-)  Don't you
>think that there were G2 stars before there was any
>life in our solar system?  (And, contra SETI, say not
>within a billion light years?)  You really don't think
>that it's possible for two things to be *intrinsically*
>similar without anyone or anything observing or knowing
>about it?  Surely you admit that carbon atoms in Andromeda
>are pretty damned similar to carbon atoms in Jupiter, and
>were long, long, before there might have been any observer
>anywhere. "Appearance" is IMO entirely moot.

I think this is a key area where we're disagreeing. I think what I need to say here is that I don't have any belief either way about whether there were really stars before we perceived them. I'm happy enough to stick to what I perceive. I think I'd actually say that to do anything else is absolutely impossible, and...probably...unanswerable. It's not only unknowable, but it's a non-question. I hope this is clear. It's like asking what something looks like outside of subjective perception. It can't be done. To ask such a question merely shows a misunderstanding about what "looking like" means. It's not a question that can have any meaningful answer, even though grammatically the question seems to make sense, it actually only represents a misuse of language. To ask a question like "do objects have similarity outside of perception?" seems close to being a nonsensical question, one which cannot be answered either yes or no. The question of objective
properties is one I think we're foolish to discuss, it's an angels on the head of a pin issue. What we classify as something's essential qualities may well be not even 'visible' to another consciousness. But those properties being visible or not depends on consciousness perceiving them. But crucially, we can only think about objects using notions of perception via subjective consciousness. This is why I am surprised that you claim not to be interested in perception or appearance, but...how else do we assess things???

>But our language need not attempt (in fact it should *never*
>attempt) precisely delineated objects (not, at least outside
>mathematics).  Anyone who thinks that "1956 For Fairlane
>4 Door Town Sedan Auto Trans with V8" precisely
>delineates anything is deeply mistaken.  Korzybski seems
>to have devoted the entire 1933 "Science and Sanity" to
>depictions and explanations of levels of abstraction. The
>great book by Weinberg "Levels of Knowing and Existence:
>Studies in General Semantics" (1959) also said the important
>part.

>So when one of us says "Jupiter" we should not suppose him
>to refer to some weird possibly very bogus concept of the
>thing that he has.  If he were to talk about "manned voyages
>to Jupiter" it would be decidedly insane (hence Korzybski's
>Title "Science and Sanity") to take him to be referring to his
>concept (who would want a manned voyage to his brain?).
>He is referring to the unknown (in detail) thing that is *out
>there*.  And you do too!  All the time!  Whenever you 
>speak to others in daily life, you are trying to refer, to point,
>to something outside your skin---except in weird philosophic
>discussions where for reasons unknown to me, people 
>suddenly think that realistic language is "naive" or something.

I completely agree with your emphasis on the way we commonly use language. i think this focus on utility is something that linguistic philosophy has often failed to appreciate. I also agree that we can only correctly use language when we stop trying, as you say, to precisely define things. But do you not see that this is because the reality fails to match up, to the degree which we precisely define our concepts? To talk of Jupiter only makes sense when we use a vague utilitarian (functionalist) notion of what we mean (ie, an everyday-language notion). If we try to make a precise definition of what "Jupiter" is, we face all kinds of problems about where exactly we draw the line and say, "this electron is now too far away from that one and therefore is not part of Jupiter", and "at x point in time this coalescing cloud of matter is not yet Jupiter". We use language in a functional way and everyone knows what we mean. It is when we attempt to apply
language precisely to reality that it stops working. And this is, I think, most evident when we use concept-words such as "I". I've kept saying that my point is really a trivial one when applied to something like Jupiter - it makes no difference to the way we live our lives that there is not a precise definable Jupiter "out there". However, when we realise that "I" is just as much an ill-defined word which lumps together a whole bundle of different stuff without any neat boundaries or clear cut definitions, we then realise that what we take to be "me" in common-sense everyday usage is actually an awful lot fuzzier and trickier than we keep assuming. This really is my issue with the uploading thing, that it assumes there's a fairly neat entity called "me" which can be instantiated in different ways. The same issue has caused us centuries of dilemma over the "mind-body problem" when in fact the ability to distinguish mind from body is a
facet of the way our language works. If we stop thinking in neat, precise words suddenly that division falls apart, and we realise that there's just the life that we live, without any of these neat boxes we keep trying to fit things into.

>Likewise, "Napoleon" should refer to the now quite dead
>man born in 1769 on Corsica who ruled France from 1795
>to 1815 and who died on St. Helena in 1821.

>*That* is what the term "Napoleon" should refer to. Not 
>anyone's concept.  Not any perception.  Not any appearance.
>Of course, no knowledge is certain;  "all knowledge is 
>conjectural", as the good philosophers who adopt PCR 
>know very well.  (See Bartley, PCR.)

To clear this up, in case what I've been meaning is not now clear (I really hope it is): It's very easy to say "that man", but it doesn't tell us anything - as soon as we try to narrow that down, as we'd have to in the context of the question you'd posed about someone being convinced he was Napoleon, we ask "what is it that fundamentally constitutes 'that man'?" Is it his thoughts, his body, his biology, his attitudes, his actions, some combination of these...what? And then I think we realise that we don't have any agreed upon definition of what we mean by "that person", or "me". We usually know what we mean in most everyday circumstances, but in issues like uploading our usual concepts get stretched and we suddenly have to decide to either think our ideas out more precisely, or...not...

BUT i question whether any linguistic definition will completely suffice because, quite simply, reality is too complex too be neatly and perspicuously compartmentalised into our language. To compartmentalise at all is to reduce from the fullness of objective reality.


>> I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and
>> Jupiter become part of a single system.
>
>That really is pure nonsense. There are some very unhelpful results
>in quantum mechanics that should not be taken too literally (just
>as Einstein's relativity theory has been grossly misused). Jupiter
>is located at no less than 4 astronomical units from Earth, and it
>is impossible for you and Jupiter to compose any part of a larger
>system when you happen to glance at it. It's not *useful* in any
>way to suppose that they do. There is no physics in which it is
>useful to consider you being a single system (again, outside an
>extremely narrow interpretation of QM). This is the sort of 
>"insanity" that really used to upset Korzybski so bad---now me,
>I'm not so upset, because I realize that Sapir-Whorf was wrong
>and words don't really have as much influence on our actions as
>those guys thought. In other words, you,  Michael go about all
>day long being quite sane and making perfect sense, except when
>(IMO) you get into discussions like this and start saying things
>about Napoleon or Jupiter that 99% of people would think is
>crazy.

I'm surprised by this answer. What are the rules for a system then? I thought that this had all been battled out really well at the Macy conferences when they devised reflexivity. It seems to me, as soon as we start thinking about systems, either everything that can be conceptually grouped together in any interacting way is conceptually a single system, or nothing is. You and Jupiter are just as much a single system as your brain and your hand. If there's interaction there, then it's a system. There's no hard and fast rules, because whether something is a 'system' or not isn't an objective property, it's merely a way of grouping elements which interact. and observer and observed form an interacting system. The observer is always part of the system being observed. Why are you quoting Norbert Wiener, if you disagree with one of his fundamental principles?

>You don't draw any distinct "boundary between the
>observer and observed"?  Never?  I would venture
>that you do *indeed* draw such a boundary in 99%
>of your waking life. If you did not act as though you
>were drawing such a boundary, you'd be killed in
>traffic right off.  You wouldn't be able to tell yourself
>apart from what you were reading. Or emailing. Surely
>you admit that a *huge* part of the time you do draw
>such a boundary. 

This again is a matter of utility. I completely agree that we accept a common-sense point of view for 99% of our everyday actions. the world would fall apart if we didn't. But that doesn't mean they cover the other 1%, and we are just as incorrect if we try to force everyday functional usage of concepts to cover the remaining non-everyday situations. The problem comes when people think that one set of rules covers everything. The common-sense is not the be-all-end-all (nothing is).

>>>We progress best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>>>to what is objective.
>> 
>> Can you offer a means for doing this?
>
>Yes.  (1) avoid philosophy classes (2) stick to science and
>especially to common sense (3) avoid fancy navel studying
>involving "subjectivity" "observer/observed" distinctions
>(4) avoid reading about the philosophical implications of
>relativity or quantum mechanics (5) try to refer to things
>the same way a child (who has loads of common sense)
>does, e.g., "there is a car", "there is a dog", etc.  (6)
>Avoid referring to "perceptions of cars", "perceptions of
>dogs", etc. (8) Avoid ever thinking about or mentioning
>*qualia*, a total philosophic death-spiral if there ever was
>one (9) avoid thinking about what consciousness "is" (the
>dreaded "is"-of-identity that Korzybski and the general
>semanticists so declaimed against)  (10) adopt whenever
>possible the daily meanings of words and concepts, and
>ask a bright twelve year old if something starts to sound 
>confusing, how we should think about it,  and those are
>just the first ten things I happened to think of.

Very good. I presume you did in fact understand the irony of my comment. Just in case, I'll reiterate that we can't think outside of our heads. Arguing that we should think only about what is objective is a nonsense. That said, I completely agree with most of your methods. In terms of everyday life people get on much better doing exactly as you suggest. However, fooling them into thinking that they're somehow being "objective" by doing this is to shortchange them. They're merely following one set of rules for approaching the world, and any approach is just another set of rules. This, I think, is what's most important for us all to realise. 

I think in general, all I'm trying to say is that there is a mismatch,  a weakness between our language and reality (and language is what we use to think with - we articulate the world via our language). This is not to cast aspersions on reality, or even to broach the realist-antirealist question...it is more to simply accept that perception and thought are conditioned by a lot more processses than merely the external matter which we perceive. We do not approach reality with a blank slate, we come at it with a set of boxes already made up which we then filter our perceptions through. Once we realise this, we stop thinking that what we see and experience of the world can ever be entirely uncoloured, because that colouring is part of who we are, and its what makes "my world" what it is, and makes it different from "your world". But this in no way affects "the world" which goes on untouched by the boxes (such as Jupiter or Napoleon) which we filter the mass
of material events into.


I think my head may explode soon if I keep on with this much longer...but I guess it's good for me to
think things through from different angles :)

But, I think on most of central issues we agree. I hope I've made this clear. It's really only tertiary differences where we think about the same things in slightly different ways, it seems to me.

Mike


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From max at maxmore.com  Tue Apr 15 13:49:55 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:49:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was:  Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <20080415134956.HGQL26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>

At 01:32 PM 4/13/2008, Olga Bourlin wrote:
>From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
>To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>
>
>And it wasn't only the "minority of wealthy landowners" who profited from
>slavery- early America's economy grew and prospered greatly from slavery
>(free labor! free labor! how can any economic system beat that?) .

By having non-free labor in which you invest further resources to 
develop human capital. The resulting labor force costs considerably 
more, but also is far more productive and skilled.

Max


Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 14:20:31 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:20:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <20080415134956.HGQL26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<20080415134956.HGQL26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804150720r7ab05610hfe301d1640599144@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>  By having non-free labor in which you invest further resources to
>  develop human capital. The resulting labor force costs considerably
>  more, but also is far more productive and skilled.

It remains true that slavery-based economies denote decadent societies
that end up not performing very well from an economic or political
point of view.

It remains to be discussed whether it depends on a few obvious
economic mechanisms, such as the lesser incentive for taylorism and
technological optimisation, or, as in Nietzsche, on the "moral of
slaves" empoisoning the society of their masters, but the phenomenon
seems well established enough.

Stefano Vaj


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr 15 14:26:36 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:26:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>



Olga Bourlin wrote:
> From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>
>
>   
>>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> (in answer to a previous post of Lee Corbin's)  Your remark about 
>>> "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take into account de 
>>> jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the  1960s, and 
>>> many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those  institutions 
>>> are interrelated - and not all dead.
>>>       
>
>
>   

Of course the question we are really trying to answer is whether a 
totally free market will always be superior to a market that is managed 
and manipulated by government. If we were just talking about the past, 
then it would be obvious that government regulation is necessary. 
Without labor laws, people were working for pennies - or even as slaves. 
Without the FDA, companies were free to market any kind of snake oil 
they could. The free market didn't build the interstate highway system 
we all enjoy and I doubt it would have been built without government 
intervention. And without compulsory education there is no telling where 
we would be at the moment but I am sure evolution would be taught even 
less. Most of the large bloated bureaucracies were created in response 
to the shortcomings of the free market.

But we're not talking about the past. We're talking about the future. In 
the past, if someone was using a cheap process to create a toy which 
left lead in the paint that could harm children, there was no way to 
quickly prove it and notify people. If an employer wanted to pay pennies 
the people couldn't hop on the internet and find a job in another city 
that paid twice as much because they wanted better people. The free flow 
of information offsets most - if not all - of the benefits of the 
bureaucratic systems that are in place. A free market can only work when 
there is a free and rapid flow of information. Consumer Reports is a 
service I subscribe to and it is much more effective than the consumer 
product safety commission could ever hope to be and I'm sure you can 
figure out all the reasons why.

My point is that it's probably a waste of time debating the free market 
of the past as there are significant differences today. What we should 
be focusing on is how we can utilize these technologies today to create 
a more efficient system than exists now.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 14:48:11 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:48:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804150748x4ad5f222h2d193e9bf65ca1e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Kevin Freels wrote:
<snip>
>  My point is that it's probably a waste of time debating the free market of
> the past as there are significant differences today. What we should be
> focusing on is how we can utilize these technologies today to create a more
> efficient system than exists now.
> _______________________________________________


Yea, the web is wonderful. You don't have to tour round in a wagon
selling snake-oil anymore. You can just set up a website or use ebay
and sell snake-oil to millions.  That's progress!

'Get your snake-oil here! Banned by t' guvernint who want to restrict
your freedom!'

Any idiot can type into google. You need an education *first* to be
know what is crap and what might be useful.

To try to reduce the evil in society, two things are required.
First, educate the population. Obviously this has failed for many, and
some are incapable. But we tried.
Second, pass laws banning the worst of the con tricks and frauds.
Obviously this also has great failings. But we tried.

You can't protect everyone from every possible evil.
But that doesn't mean the only alternative is a gangster-led free-for-all.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 15 14:42:10 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:42:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
Message-ID: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
Read it all:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351287,00.html
 
 
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 16:01:09 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:01:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was:  Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

>
>  If you are counting in the opinion of the slaves themselves, perhaps a case
> could be made that slavery was unpopular - but slavery was quite accepted
> and popular by "the majority of [White] Southern population."  (I suppose
> apologists for the Confederacy would like to have one think otherwise ...).

### The way I heard it, crackerjacks hated blacks but didn't really
like slavery. They saw slavery as a form of competition for them,
since slaves supported large landowners who diminished the political
power of white, non-slave-owning farmers. There was definitely
virulent racism but this is not the same as support for slavery.
-------------------------

>
>  And it wasn't only the "minority of wealthy landowners" who profited from
> slavery- early America's economy grew and prospered greatly from slavery
> (free labor! free labor! how can any economic system beat that?) .

### I doubt that. Slaves are almost exclusively used in agriculture,
therefore their economic impact is only some reduction of food prices,
and in some cases (as in the South), cotton. Sustained economic
growth, however, is more a function of non-agricultural production and
innovation. This is why the thousands of slave- and serf-owning
societies (Vikings, Romans, Egyptian, Greeks, Arabs, almost every
major culture up to the XVIth century) didn't prosper that much, until
capitalism was invented, and as a side effect, ended slavery.
----------------------
>
>  In so-called third-world countries where one finds slavery in the world
> these days, one also finds weak and ineffectual governments.  What does this
> say about the role of government?  What does this indicate about leaving
> things to the whimsies of "the people?" (IMHO, without the intervention of
> some sort of human rights legislation, one cannot make a good case for
> leaving things to "human nature" ... can you?)
>
### First of all, you find absence of capitalism there. The government
will do whatever the power-wielders want it to do. If they can benefit
from slavery, government will support slavery. "The people", or at
least some of them, make up the government, so, just as you can't make
a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you can't wring honest laws out of a
government supported by nasty people.

Abolition of slavery happens only if the society develops the legal
norms of respect for private property, free exchange, which induce
economic growth in excess of what can be achieved by brute
exploitation of slaves and serfs. People's hearts follow the money -
in a capitalist society you can make more money being an honest
merchant or businessman, and this incentive leads humans to reject
slavery, first out of convenience, later just because everybody else
says it's bad.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 16:25:17 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:25:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804150925t501a503bodb480b624be40e62@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Kevin Freels
<kevinfreels at insightbb.com> wrote:

>  Of course the question we are really trying to answer is whether a totally
> free market will always be superior to a market that is managed and
> manipulated by government. If we were just talking about the past, then it
> would be obvious that government regulation is necessary. Without labor
> laws, people were working for pennies - or even as slaves.

### It is absolutely clear that labor laws do not increase the mean
real incomes (just leaf through an economics handbook). The prime
determinant of wages is *labor productivity*, all else has a
relatively minor impact. People in the past were very unproductive
(despite toiling from dawn till dusk), now thanks to an accumulation
of knowledge, institutional arrangements and tangible capital, workers
are hundreds of times more productive, which in almost all situations
leads to increased wages. Labor laws are just leftover roadblocks,
initially invented to keep blacks out of the North, now existing
mostly due to leftist hypocrisy and widespread economic illiteracy.

-------------------

 Without the FDA,
> companies were free to market any kind of snake oil they could.

### So? You got a problem with it?

---------------------


The free
> market didn't build the interstate highway system we all enjoy and I doubt
> it would have been built without government intervention.

### Of course it would. The free market built the railway system. Why
not highways?

---------------------

 And without
> compulsory education there is no telling where we would be at the moment but
> I am sure evolution would be taught even less.

### Without compulsory education the young ones would not be stuffed
full of government propaganda. That's a clear gain. It's better to be
ignorant of evolution, rather than to think  that threatening other
people into submission is the right way of running a society.

-----------------
Most of the large bloated
> bureaucracies were created in response to the shortcomings of the free
> market.

### Most of the bloated bureaucracies are the cause of whatever is
blamed on the market. But, of course, whoever allowed government
propaganda to seep into his mind at school, may think otherwise.

------------------------
>
>  My point is that it's probably a waste of time debating the free market of
> the past as there are significant differences today.

### Nah, debating the need to eschew violence, and how to build a
society where violence doesn't pay, is always useful.

Rafal


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 15 17:13:15 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:13:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com><038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
	<ee50357e0804150748x4ad5f222h2d193e9bf65ca1e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01c89f1c$acc4d2e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

BillK writes

(Incidently, Max and Stefano each score 100% in my book
on each of their posts:  perfectly worded, succinct, and
totally correct.)

> To try to reduce the evil in society, two things are required.
> First, educate the population. Obviously this has failed for
> many, and some are incapable. But we tried.

Yes, though it does sound as if you want the government to
use force to achieve these attempts at educating the populace.
I actually agree with you---except that I consider it to be a
function of the existing level of sophistication and existing
level of advancement of society/culture. It was more necessary
in the past, somewhat less necessary now, and presumably very
much less in the future.

For example, if the people are free enough (have had a tradition
of freedom long enough and strong enough), then it is better to
leave it entirely to the free market:  people can choose to educate
their children (or not) however or wherever they want.

As another example, if the children were all bright and happened
to be born in a rich society with many interesting possibilities,
organized education of any sort may be superfluous.

> Second, pass laws banning the worst of the con tricks and frauds.
> Obviously this also has great failings. But we tried.

Same as the above: at some points in history, it seems to me that
it was necessary. But we should try to evolve towards a point
where it won't be necessary. And it may not be necessary today
in advanced countries:  reputation systems may already be strong
enough in the U.S., Oceania, and Europe to obviate laws in this
area.

Lee

> You can't protect everyone from every possible evil.
> But that doesn't mean the only alternative is a gangster-led free-for-all.



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 15 17:36:26 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:36:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
References: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <010801c89f1f$bae98d90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Spike writes

> Read it all:
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351287,00.html

Looking at the YouTube link, I was more impressed with
several other ones.

E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiMhnJyM3PQ&feature=related

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 17:54:27 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:54:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>

Rafal wrote:
### First of all, you find absence of capitalism there. The government
will do whatever the power-wielders want it to do. If they can benefit
from slavery, government will support slavery. "The people", or at
least some of them, make up the government, so, just as you can't make
a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you can't wring honest laws out of a
government supported by nasty people.
>>>

The fictional nasty people of S.M. Stirling's Draka Empire alternate history
sf series is an example of this.  The Draka are in some ways the modern
equivalent of Sparta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination

The Draka Empire timeline as envisioned by the author:

http://users.accesscomm.ca/geis/draka/history.html

Taken from "Problems with the Draka timeline:
*6.* The Draka manage to develop technology and industry at a rapid pace,
despite having the worst sort of society for it. They industrialize despite
having cheap slave labor which can produce the products of early industry
more cheaply than early industry, and despite having the majority of their
population in such a state of low income that there is little internal
market for the products of industry (the Draka themselves will demand a lot
of goods, but mostly high-quality luxury stuff, not the basic products of
early industry). In addition they manage great technological development
despite the majority of their populace being kept in a delibertely
uneducated state (and brutally repressed at that), and the remainder of the
population emphasizing military prowess in the education system and in life.
I'm not saying that a slave society couldn't manage to tolerably keep up
technologically, but it is unlikely to become a world technological leader -
especially when starting essentially from scratch.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/analyses/Drakaproblems.html
A "realistic" timeline taking into consideration the above criticism:

http://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/timelines/Alternatedraka.html

Will *our* United States, Europe and India fare better than the Alliance
did?  I hope so.

John Grigg
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 16 03:40:13 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:40:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <010801c89f1f$bae98d90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> From: ... Lee Corbin
...
> Looking at the YouTube link, I was more impressed with 
> several other ones... Lee

Aint YouTube cool?  If you have time for only one video, do view the second
one only.  If you have time for two, view the first one first, to get you in
the mood.  That piece that Tom Cruise recently made about Co$ may become the
most parodied video in history: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r2rIf3k6vE&feature=related

For those Co$ers who blow, I propose as a substitute the worship of Pat
Condell.  Condellology would be popular among transhumanists methinks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r2rIf3k6vE&feature=related



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 16 05:32:58 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

...
> ...That piece that Tom 
> Cruise recently made about Co$ may become the most parodied 
> video in history...


I don't know which was the critical tipping point for Co$: their prosecution
of Keith on phony charges which really stirred the internet community and
resulted in publicity that cannot even be bought, or the Cruise video which
is so profoundly absurd on so many levels, it is its own parody.

Here it is, in case you missed it the first time around: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

This video causes one to wonder how screwed up can a person be, and still
function at their job?  Perhaps being a Hollyweird actor is a special case,
which actually requires some degree of screwed uptitude.  

On the other hand, perhaps lives were saved by this video.  Imagine driving
in or around Hollyweird, get in a serious accident, wake up surrounded by
paramedics, Porsche pulls up and out jumps an actor, pushing the
professionals aside while insisting he is the only one who can really help.
You beg someone to have mercy just strangle you to hasten the inevitable and
end your misery.  Perhaps proles in southern Taxifornia will drive more
carefully with such a threat on the horizon.

spike




 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 16 08:44:40 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 01:44:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <792932.93861.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018801c89f9e$a88affb0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Mike writes

> Lee, I've taken a while to ponder on these issues and work
> out exactly what i want to say in the way that will encourage
> least confusion. Hopefully, this time, I will succeed!

What an optimist!  :-)  It is in the nature of these discussions
to be intractable. What really happens is that after a while
it dies down, and the participants slowly over the next weeks,
months, or years unconsciously absorb what they gleaned,
and reflexively anticipate such other POVs in the future.

> >I'm not interested in appearance either!  :-)  Don't you
> >think that there were G2 stars before there was any
> >life in our solar system?  (And, contra SETI, say not
> >within a billion light years?)  You really don't think
> >that it's possible for two things to be *intrinsically*
> >similar without anyone or anything observing or knowing
> >about it?  Surely you admit that carbon atoms in Andromeda
> >are pretty damned similar to carbon atoms in Jupiter, and
> >were long, long, before there might have been any observer
> >anywhere. "Appearance" is IMO entirely moot.
>
> I think this is a key area where we're disagreeing. I think what
> I need to say here is that I don't have any belief either way
> about whether there were really stars before we perceived them.

All of our knowledge is conjectural, but we follow our best
theories of science. (We also follow the most reputable advice
we can get for how our digestion works, or where to go to
find a neighborhood porn shop.) Science makes the issues
clear.

According to our best theories, dinosaurs once roamed the
Earth, and before that---again, according to our very best
ideas of knowledge, our best theoretical judgments---the
Earth was molten and had formed about 5 billion years ago
around the same time that the sun did.

Now this knowledge is really as firm or firmer than your
knowledge about George W. Bush. Was there a GWB
before he was perceived by you, or by the media, or
by his mother?  Well---the possibility certainly exists!
He could have been adopted, or (very unlikely) delivered
to Earth by especially mischievous Martians.

Therefore: it simply defies our best understandings when
you say

> I don't have any belief either way about whether there
> were really stars before we perceived them.

and furthermore, I don't believe you. In *any* other discussion
with your friends or family, you, being the well-educated type,
might demur if someone disputed evolution, or said that the
Earth was only 6000 years old, or that the universe did not
contain anything before there was an Earth. Hence you *really*
do believe that there were stars before they were perceived by
(a) you, (b) us,  (c) humankind, (d) evolved aliens.

> I'm happy enough to stick to what I perceive. I think I'd
> actually say that to do anything else is absolutely impossible,
> and...probably...unanswerable.

I detect a quest for *certainty* here. No knowledge (with the
*possible* exception of Descartes' cogito ergo sum) is certain,
it's conjectures all the way down.

> It's not only unknowable, but it's a non-question. I hope this
> is clear. It's like asking what something looks like outside of
> subjective perception.

Maybe I'm confused, but are we still talking about whether there
were stars before anyone perceived them?  Or whether the Earth
was molten before we observed it?

> To ask a question like "do objects have similarity outside of
> perception?" seems close to being a nonsensical question,
> one which cannot be answered either yes or no.

Then it all hinges on whether you believe the sort of "fact" that
stars existed before the Earth cooled. As soon as you admit that,
or just listen to yourself as you tell your friends and neighbors
some fragments of your (relatively vast) knowledge about things
you have not yourself directly perceived, then you'll agree that
the question does make sense.

> The question of objective properties is one I think we're
> foolish to discuss, it's an angels on the head of a pin issue.
> What we classify as something's essential qualities may
> well be not even 'visible' to another consciousness.

True, but Maxwell and Hertz could start talking about EM waves
"just as if there really were such things" that certainly were not
visible to anyone's consciousness but their own. But because
people in daily life are realists, other ears picked up on this:
"Whazzat they're saying? Ether waves?  Hmm. They really
exist?  Hmm. Maybe I could build an apparatus and test for
them!"

> BUT I question whether any linguistic definition will completely
> suffice because, quite simply, reality is too complex too be neatly
> and perspicuously compartmentalised into our language.

Totally correct!  I concur completely!  I often rail against
definitions.  By the very nature of abstracting, we lose (and
must always lose some parts of reality).  Consider

Eternal Truth #1:  Nothing is simple.
Eternal Truth #2:  Every statement must be further modified
                           (in order to become more accurate)

> To compartmentalise at all is to reduce from the fullness of objective reality.

Yes.  When I refer to GWB, I do not and cannot include the
complex reality of the man. But that's the way it is. We do the
best that we can.  And it all fits the picture of who we are and
how we evolved.

> > That really is pure nonsense. There are some very unhelpful results
> > in quantum mechanics that should not be taken too literally (just
> > as Einstein's relativity theory has been grossly misused). Jupiter
> > is located at no less than 4 astronomical units from Earth, and it
> > is impossible for you and Jupiter to compose any part of a larger
> > system when you happen to glance at it. It's not *useful* in any
> > way to suppose that they do. There is no physics in which it is
> > useful to consider you being a single system (again, outside an
> > extremely narrow interpretation of QM). This is the sort of
> > "insanity" that really used to upset Korzybski so bad---now me,
> > I'm not so upset, because I realize that Sapir-Whorf was wrong
> > and words don't really have as much influence on our actions as
> > those guys thought. In other words, you,  Michael go about all
> > day long being quite sane and making perfect sense, except when
> > (IMO) you get into discussions like this and start saying things
> > about Napoleon or Jupiter that 99% of people would think is crazy.
>
> I'm surprised by this answer. What are the rules for a system then?

A "system"?  I don't know.  I wouldn't know what rules there are for
something as ambiguous as that. Now in QM there are systems, and
the rule is that they include everything that can be described as a
single quantum state. The EPR results suggest that a system can even
be non-local, although David Deutsch disagrees. Anyway, we *rarely*
describe things in most of physics as a single system; usually it's things
interacting with each other, such as a transmission and the drive chain.
Or one molecule and another. Why the need to try to come up with
some idea about two hugely separate things such as you and Jupiter
being part of "the same system"?  Before 20th century gabblespeak,
such a notion would have amazed Galileo. Nor do I think Einstein would
have been able to guess what you are talking about.

> I thought that this had all been battled out really well at the Macy
> conferences when they devised reflexivity.

I never heard of them!  Okay, so google says that there were these
cybernetic conferences starting in 1946.  "Reflexivity"?  These are
really very abstruse things you're bringing in. Are they really necessary
to investigate whether you and the Andromeda galaxy are part of the
same system just because one photon from it enters your eye? Are
they really necessary to be able to decide whether there were stars
before the Earth, or oceans before people?

>  It seems to me, as soon as we start thinking about systems,
> either everything that can be conceptually grouped together
> in any interacting way is conceptually a single system, or
> nothing is.

Here is a brand new concept then:  the union of the southern most
orange on the southern most orange tree in Florida and the sunspot
that is at this moment closest to Earth. Wow!  A brand new system!
There's no utility in it!

> You and Jupiter are just as much a single system as your brain
> and your hand.

I'm not even sure it makes sense to say that my brain and my
hand are a single system. If that's true, and it's true about me
and Jupiter, then every two things in the universe are a single
system?  Or it's only when some intelligence ponders the
connection?

> If there's interaction there, then it's a system.

According to general relativity, matter curves space and so matter
here affects everything in the universe (within 42 billion light years,
so far as influences have been able to get in the past 13.7 billion
years, what with the expaning universe). So every two things or
three things or four things..., within 42 billion light years is a system.
How useful can the idea be when it applies to everything?

> There's no hard and fast rules, because whether something is
> a 'system' or not isn't an objective property, it's merely a way
> of grouping elements which interact.

I'll agree with that!  I sense that the word "system" is being overused.
We *can* talk about properties, unlike "system", that are objective,
or do you think we can?  I would say that it's objective whether or
not some people have been to Hawaii. In fact, it's objectively true
that some people have been to Hawaii.

> The observer is always part of the system being observed.
> Why are you quoting Norbert Wiener, if you disagree with
> one of his fundamental principles?

Hmm. Didn't know I was quoting him.  I don't think that that
principle makes much sense in daily life.  And if you depend
on it, my fear is that the term "system" starts to take on a
weird status. Try telling the judge that you and the traffic light
formed a part of the same system, and so you could not have
run it because you were it!

> I completely agree that we accept a common-sense point
> of view for 99% of our everyday actions. the world would
> fall apart if we didn't. But that doesn't mean they cover the
> other 1%,

I agree.  And so we have to do some arm-waving, and sometimes
a little special jargon for the 1%.  And even there, it's best not to
go all mathematical and start defining things. Keep the language
light, rephrase as often as possible, never depend on a single word
or concept if at all possible.  (I agree that when writing Lectures on
Physics, Feynman indeed did depend a lot on the term "energy".
But he explained all that as well as possible using different terms
and a lot of commonsense daily language.)

> and we are just as incorrect if we try to force everyday functional
> usage of concepts to cover the remaining non-everyday situations.

Okay---so *what* exactly were we arguing about that was not a
everyday situation.  Jupiter?  Napoleon?  Whether stars exist
independent of us?  I could go on:  Is there a moon when no one
is looking at it? (YES!)  Does a tree falling in the forest make a
sound when no one's around (see Feynman, but the answer is
YES!).

> The problem comes when people think that one set of
> rules covers everything. The common-sense is not the
> be-all-end-all (nothing is).

I'll agree.  But we should get clear on the simplest things first. Then
we can investigate the Macy conference weirdness and QM and
reflexivity and self-transcendence and uploading, etc.

> Just in case, I'll reiterate that we can't think outside
> of our heads.

Yes.

> Arguing that we should think only about what is objective
> is a nonsense.

I agree.  We should only talk about what is objective, though,
at least if we're trying to find out what is so. (Yes, two good
ol' boys can get together and discuss in very subjective terms
the qualities of other races, or who gives best pussy, etc., but
normally we all should be talking about that which is objective,
because the subjective is not accessible to those we're trying
to communicate with.)

> That said, I completely agree with most of your methods.
> In terms of everyday life people get on much better doing
> exactly as you suggest. However, fooling them into thinking
> that they're somehow being "objective" by doing this is to
> shortchange them. They're merely following one set of rules
> for approaching the world, and any approach is just another
> set of rules. This, I think, is what's most important for us all to realise.

I agree, and also enthusiastically agree with your concluding words:

> I think in general, all I'm trying to say is that there is a mismatch,  a weakness between our language and reality (and language 
> is what we use to think with - we articulate the world via our language). This is not to cast aspersions on reality, or even to 
> broach the realist-antirealist question...it is more to simply accept that perception and thought are conditioned by a lot more 
> processes than merely the external matter which we perceive. We do not approach reality with a blank slate, we come at it with a 
> set of boxes already made up which we then filter our perceptions through. Once we realise this, we stop thinking that what we see 
> and experience of the world can ever be entirely uncoloured, because that colouring is part of who we are, and its what makes "my 
> world" what it is, and makes it different from "your world". But this in no way affects "the world" which goes on untouched by the 
> boxes (such as Jupiter or Napoleon) which we filter the mass of material events into.
<

> I think my head may explode soon if I keep on with this much
> longer...but I guess it's good for me to think things through
> from different angles :)

I appreciate your patience, and your thick skin.  I know that I
get into rants and start being quite the curmudgeon. So thanks
for not being offended  :)

> But, I think on most of central issues we agree. I hope I've
> made this clear. It's really only tertiary differences where we
> think about the same things in slightly different ways, it seems to me.

Well, this post helped a lot, it seems to me.  When you write about
*experience*:

> Once we realise this, we stop thinking that what we see and
> experience of the world can ever be entirely uncoloured,
> because that colouring is part of who we are, and its what
> makes "my world" what it is, and makes it different from
> "your world". But this in no way affects "the world" which
> goes on untouched by the boxes [concepts?] (such as
> Jupiter or Napoleon) which we filter the mass of material
> events into.

it seems we're indeed not so far apart.

Lee



From estropico at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 13:11:09 2008
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:11:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Tomorrow's technologies emerging today. ExtroBritannia's May
	event.
In-Reply-To: <4eaaa0d90804141132q681ece4cv8ffdf1dd331180e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4eaaa0d90804141132q681ece4cv8ffdf1dd331180e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90804160611s2895ce52kea00f09e00f661f7@mail.gmail.com>

Tomorrow's technologies emerging today - nanotechnology and stem cell
rejuvenation: seizing the opportunity despite the scaremongers

The next ExtroBritannia event is scheduled for Saturday the 10th of
May 2008, 2pm-4pm. Venue: Room 538 (fifth floor), Birkbeck College,
Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX. The event is free and everyone's
welcome.

Come to hear and discuss the exciting possible near-term developments
with some key 21st century technologies. This is not science fiction -
it could be science fact, well within our lifetimes. Nanotech means
manipulating substances at the level of individual molecules, creating
materials and compounds with remarkable properties. Stem cell therapy
has the potential to cure cruel degenerative diseases like Parkinsons
and Motor Neurone Disease. Both technologies deserve to be progressed
carefully and thoughtfully, but also quickly and seriously. In each
case, misguided interventions such as the opposition to the Human
Fertilisation & Embryology bill threaten to frustrate progress and
prolong disease and impoverishment. The speakers describe how we can
seize and guide the opportunity despite the scaremongers.

The meeting is sponsored by the UKTA, the United Kingdom Transhumanist
Association. There is no charge to attend.

Speakers:

Julian Snape: "Latest developments with nanotechnology"

Darren Reynolds: "Reasons to support and improve the Human
Fertilisation & Embryology bill"

Venue:

Birkbeck College - Room 539, 5th floor, Main Building, Torrington
Square (which is a pedestrian-only square), London WC1E 7HX - MAP

The nearest tube station is Russell Square. Come out of the tube
station and turn left, to walk west along Bernard St. Cross over
Herbrand St then Woburn Place and keep walking westwards, on the north
side of the square. Cross Bedford Way, and turn right into Thornhaugh
St, then immediately left to enter Torrington Square through the
pedestrian-only courtyard outside SOAS (the School of Oriental and
African Studies). Veer right and you'll see the main entrance to
Birkbeck College on the left as you walk up Torrington Square. Take
the lift to the 5th floor and follow the signs to room 539.

Discussion is likely to continue after the event in a nearby pub, for
those who are able to stay. There's also the option of joining some of
the UKTA regulars for drinks/lunch beforehand, starting c. 12.30, in
"The Friend At Hand" pub which is situated behind Russell Square tube
station on Herbrand Street. If it's your first ExtroBritannia look out
for a copy of Ending Aging on display on our table.

For the links, see the ExtroBritannia blog:

http://extrobritannia.blogspot.com/2008/04/tomorrows-technologies-emerging-today.html

Cheers,
Fabio


From michaelanissimov at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 13:19:18 2008
From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:19:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>

Current results for the H+ technologies poll at
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720


   - Life Extension (36%, 171 Votes)
   - *Superintelligence (35%, 165 Votes)*
   - Mind Uploading (13%, 64 Votes)
   - Nanotechnology (9%, 44 Votes)
   - Cybernetics (5%, 23 Votes)
   - Other (specify below) (2%, 10 Votes)

Total Voters: *477*
-- 
Michael Anissimov
Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com
http://acceleratingfuture.com
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From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Wed Apr 16 00:13:29 2008
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (Sondre)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:13:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c89f56$b9d161d0$2d742570$@com>

 

<Handwritten content>


 

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: 15. april 2008 16:42
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: [ExI] $ci again

 

 

Read it all:

 

HYPERLINK
"http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351287,00.html"http://www.foxnews.com/s
tory/0,2933,351287,00.html

 

 

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1378 - Release Date: 15.04.2008
09:12


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1378 - Release Date: 15.04.2008
09:12
 
  
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Apr 16 13:55:44 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:55:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080416135545.ODNN22186.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 08:19 AM 4/16/2008, Michael  wrote:
>Current results for the H+ technologies poll at
><http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720>http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720
>
>    * Life Extension (36%, 171 Votes)
>    * Superintelligence (35%, 165 Votes)
>    * Mind Uploading (13%, 64 Votes)
>    * Nanotechnology (9%, 44 Votes)
>    * Cybernetics (5%, 23 Votes)
>    * Other (specify below) (2%, 10 Votes)

  Thanks for the poll Michael -

Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More, 
BFA, MS, MPhil
University Lecturer
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics
Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 16:00:40 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:00:40 +0200
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804160900s1e45d6adide6e584b1c026ad5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Michael Anissimov
<michaelanissimov at gmail.com> wrote:
> Current results for the H+ technologies poll at
> http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720
>
>
> Life Extension (36%, 171 Votes)
> Superintelligence (35%, 165 Votes)
> Mind Uploading (13%, 64 Votes)
> Nanotechnology (9%, 44 Votes)
> Cybernetics (5%, 23 Votes)
> Other (specify below) (2%, 10 Votes)
>
> Total Voters: 477

As I believe to have already mentioned in another thread, I find it
very interesting that many transhumanists put enhancement (even in the
very specific and debatable form of "superintelligence") at an equal
or even superior level in comparison with longevism, as important a
goal as the latter may be.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 20:42:48 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:42:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
Message-ID: <580930c20804161342o1ffb52d4pdb298459c32b73eb@mail.gmail.com>

Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcoticsJekyll and super-intelligent
HydeBy Chris
Williams<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/>
?
More by this author<http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Chris%20Williams>
Published Thursday 10th April 2008 15:08 GMT
------------------------------
<http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/>

Shocking research by Nature has revealed that many of the world's boffins
are routinely taking psychoactive drugs to boost their brain power.

An "informal survey" by the leading research rag has uncovered an epidemic
of drug use in scientific circles. One in five respondents to the survey
reported they had used cognition-enhancing prescription drugs for
non-medical reasons.

Specifically, ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) drug Ritalin,
sleep medication Provigil, and beta blocking heart drugs are all reportedly
guzzled to improve focus, concentration, and memory. More than one third had
obtained their fix from an internet pharmacy. All but one of the 14 British
scientists who responded ordered online.

The enhanced eggheads reported side effects including sleeplessness,
jitteriness, anxiety, and headaches.

But the poll also revealed that most boffins have no problem with their
competitors obtaining a chemical advantage. Four in five said healthy adults
should be allowed to turbo charge their own brain if they want to.

Boffinry's - and indeed the public's - fancy for personal enhancement is
nothing new, of course.

In 2006, Sir David King, then the UK government's top scientific advisor,
briefed <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/drug_enhancement_briefing/>ministers
at Downing Street on what was dubbed "cosmetic neurology". He
warned that regulators will have to be ready for an explosion in public
interest in the concept over the next 20 years.

In November, the British Medical Association
attempted<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/08/bma_brain_boost_ethics/>to
kickstart debate on the ethics around mental meddling. "It should be
remembered that people are willing to endure major surgery to enhance their
visual appearance, so they may be willing to do so to improve their
cognitive ability as well, if the techniques prove to be effective," the
doctors' group said.

Read Nature's own report on its findings
here<http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080409/full/452674a.html>.
And step away from the coffee machine. (R)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/

BTW, "boffins" seem to mean scientists in British English. :-)
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 20:45:33 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:45:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Japan turning itself into Cyberman machine civilisation
Message-ID: <580930c20804161345v22655c42p3b3a1bfb8d285c29@mail.gmail.com>

Japan turning itself into Cyberman machine civilisationThree million
converted to undying robotoids by 2025By Lewis
Page<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/09/japan_goes_cyberman/>
?
More by this author <http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Lewis%20Page>
Published Wednesday 9th April 2008 09:03 GMT
------------------------------
<http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/>

Enormous numbers of people are being replaced by (or perhaps converted into)
robots, reports suggest, and the trend is set to continue.

Indeed, the issue has become so salient in Japan that a specialist
thinktank, the Machine Industry Memorial Foundation (MIMF?), has been set up
to monitor the gradual infiltration of society by mechanoid impostors.

Reuters reports that MIMF's latest estimates predict that 3.5 million
Japanese workers - nearly three per cent of the population - will actually
be automatic surrogates as of 2025.

In fact, the idea is that this is positive - the greying of Japan's
population is well known, as is its failure to reproduce itself.

The Reuters scribes seem to imply that, rather than being invaded from
within by an unwelcome droid fifth column, Japan will willingly convert
itself from a flesh-based to a machine civilisation as a matter of choice,
rather as the Cybermen (of *Doctor Who* fame) did in their remote past.

"Robots are important because they could help to alleviate... shortage of
the labour force," said Takao Kobayashi of MIMF.

But there are still obstacles in the way before the Land of the Rising Sun
can go fully cyborg: it seems that ageing Japanese citizens remain reluctant
to be converted into eternal machine workers.

Blighty is thought by some to be facing a similar problem, as noted media
robomageddon professor and gladiatordroid expert Noel Sharkey has famously
said <http://www.compeng.ulster.ac.uk/events/ecbs2008/sharkey.php>:

This has become a passion for me. There is a cultural mythology about
robots... there are some real dangers that we may soon have to face. We need
proper informed public debate... we must decide what we want from them
before we dehumanize ourselves
 further.

"People need to have the will," adds Kobayashi.

Read all about it from Reuters
here<http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2008-04-08T110630Z_01_T275062_RTRIDST_0_TECH-JAPAN-ROBOTS-DC.XML&pageNumber=1&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage1>.
(R)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/09/japan_goes_cyberman/
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From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr 16 20:20:59 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:20:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI]  John A.. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>

John Wheeler, one of the legends of physics, 
died at 96.
http://blogs.physicstoday.org/newspicks/2008/04/john_wheeler_19112008.html 

There are moving posts 
http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/04/13/goodbye/
http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/2008/04/john_wheeler.php

See also this one
http://ashujo.blogspot.com/2008/04/magic-without-magic-john-archibald.html

s.

"All things physical are information - theoretic in origin
and this is a participatory universe...  Observer participancy
gives rise to information; and information gives rise to physics."
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/321/wheeler.pdf
http://forizslaszlo.com/tudomany/wheeler_law_without_law.pdf




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr 16 21:01:59 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:01:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>

At 10:20 PM 4/16/2008 +0200, Serafino wrote:

>John Wheeler, one of the legends of physics,
>died at 96.

I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.

Damien Broderick




From jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov  Wed Apr 16 21:05:50 2008
From: jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jim Stevenson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] plain text was  Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
Message-ID: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>

Hi.

Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
and are using its features.

Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
under which OS, and why?
I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end,
though your mail program may hide them from you.
This is why others may not have pointed out the mime attached html problem.

Your mime attached html post, which I have appended,
is exactly what I received.

Are you using html to display anything other than plain text?
Unless you really are using the html features,
the defaults should be set to both post and answer in plain text,
or uuencode, if plain text is not an option.
your answer mode should also be set to
answer in plain text, or answer in uuencode,
not to answer in kind.

I am most concerned about viruses in unintended attachments.

If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
I have already listened to mine.

I read email with speech,
So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes 
without listening to them again,
and the mime code and html after the header are not speech friendly.
to quickly get to the new information.
The mime attached html is far from speech friendly!

--

Thanks much again as always.


Hi.

I would much appreciate a copy in plain text.

I am having trouble with lynx web access.
If there are too many files or links to post,
a description of what is at that url would help much.


--

Thanks much again as always.
Jim


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Subject: [ExI] Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
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Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcoticsJekyll and super-intelligent
HydeBy Chris
Williams<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/>
$B"*(B
More by this author<http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Chris%20Williams>
Published Thursday 10th April 2008 15:08 GMT
------------------------------
<http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/>

Shocking research by Nature has revealed that many of the world's boffins
are routinely taking psychoactive drugs to boost their brain power.

An "informal survey" by the leading research rag has uncovered an epidemic
of drug use in scientific circles. One in five respondents to the survey
reported they had used cognition-enhancing prescription drugs for
non-medical reasons.

Specifically, ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) drug Ritalin,
sleep medication Provigil, and beta blocking heart drugs are all reportedly
guzzled to improve focus, concentration, and memory. More than one third had
obtained their fix from an internet pharmacy. All but one of the 14 British
scientists who responded ordered online.

The enhanced eggheads reported side effects including sleeplessness,
jitteriness, anxiety, and headaches.

But the poll also revealed that most boffins have no problem with their
competitors obtaining a chemical advantage. Four in five said healthy adults
should be allowed to turbo charge their own brain if they want to.

Boffinry's - and indeed the public's - fancy for personal enhancement is
nothing new, of course.

In 2006, Sir David King, then the UK government's top scientific advisor,
briefed <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/drug_enhancement_briefing/>ministers
at Downing Street on what was dubbed "cosmetic neurology". He
warned that regulators will have to be ready for an explosion in public
interest in the concept over the next 20 years.

In November, the British Medical Association
attempted<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/08/bma_brain_boost_ethics/>to
kickstart debate on the ethics around mental meddling. "It should be
remembered that people are willing to endure major surgery to enhance their
visual appearance, so they may be willing to do so to improve their
cognitive ability as well, if the techniques prove to be effective," the
doctors' group said.

Read Nature's own report on its findings
here<http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080409/full/452674a.html>.
And step away from the coffee machine. (R)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/

BTW, "boffins" seem to mean scientists in British English. :-)

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<h2>Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics</h2><h3 class="Standfirst">Jekyll and super-intelligent Hyde</h3><div class="Byline">By <a href="http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/" title="Send email to the author">Chris Williams</a> <small class="MoreByAuthor">$B"*(B <a href="http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Chris%20Williams" title="More stories from this site by Chris Williams">More by this author</a></small></div>
<div class="Date"><small>Published Thursday 10th April 2008 15:08&nbsp;GMT</small></div><hr id="UnderDate"><div class="TopTextLink">

<a href="http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/"></a></div><p>Shocking research by <cite>Nature</cite> has revealed that many of the world&#39;s boffins are routinely taking psychoactive drugs to boost their brain power.</p>


<p>An &quot;informal survey&quot; by the leading research rag has uncovered an
epidemic of drug use in scientific circles. One in five respondents to
the survey reported they had used cognition-enhancing prescription
drugs for non-medical reasons.</p>




<p>Specifically, ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) drug
Ritalin, sleep medication Provigil, and beta blocking heart drugs are
all reportedly guzzled to improve focus, concentration, and memory.
More than one third had obtained their fix from an internet pharmacy.
All but one of the 14 British scientists who responded ordered online.</p>

<p>The enhanced eggheads reported side effects including sleeplessness, jitteriness, anxiety, and headaches.</p>

<p>But the poll also revealed that most boffins have no problem with
their competitors obtaining a chemical advantage. Four in five said
healthy adults should be allowed to turbo charge their own brain if
they want to.</p>

<p>Boffinry&#39;s - and indeed the public&#39;s - fancy for personal enhancement is nothing new, of course.</p>

<p>In 2006, Sir David King, then the UK government&#39;s top scientific advisor, <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/drug_enhancement_briefing/">briefed</a>
ministers at Downing Street on what was dubbed &quot;cosmetic neurology&quot;. He
warned that regulators will have to be ready for an explosion in public
interest in the concept over the next 20 years.</p>

<p>In November, the British Medical Association <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/08/bma_brain_boost_ethics/">attempted</a>
to kickstart debate on the ethics around mental meddling. &quot;It should be
remembered that people are willing to endure major surgery to enhance
their visual appearance, so they may be willing to do so to improve
their cognitive ability as well, if the techniques prove to be
effective,&quot; the doctors&#39; group said.</p>

<p>Read <cite>Nature&#39;s</cite> own report on its findings <a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080409/full/452674a.html" target="_blank">here</a>. And step away from the coffee machine. &reg;</p><a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/</a><br>
<br>BTW, &quot;boffins&quot; seem to mean scientists in British English. :-)<br>

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_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 16 22:44:03 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:44:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text
References: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Is Jim talking about the way that (1) sometimes the HTML is not
flagged by my email reader as having an attachment, and (2) sometimes
it is? 

I think he's suggesting that if you *must* use HTML, well, then, okay,
somehow he and the rest of us will live with it.  But does there *also*
have to appear to be an attachment, or in his case, to actually have
an attachment? (It's true that after I open the email, I no longer see
any attachment, just the HTML.)

Lee

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stevenson" <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text was Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics


> Hi.
> 
> Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
> and are using its features.
> 
> Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
> Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
> If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
> under which OS, and why?
> I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end...



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 16 22:51:15 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:51:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <005201c8a014$648b4ce0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien writes

> At 10:20 PM 4/16/2008 +0200, Serafino wrote:
> 
>>John Wheeler, one of the legends of physics,
>>died at 96.

I knew he was getting up there. Who's next, Martin G.?

> I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.

Maybe by observing the Omega Point, Wheeler will now
be helping to bring it into existence. (He's done quite a 
bit already, to help us towards a future where everyone
can be resurrected.)

Lee

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/universalimmortalism/



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 01:17:37 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:17:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Rafal wrote:
> ### First of all, you find absence of capitalism there. The government
> will do whatever the power-wielders want it to do. If they can benefit
> from slavery, government will support slavery. "The people", or at
>  least some of them, make up the government, so, just as you can't make
> a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you can't wring honest laws out of a
> government supported by nasty people.
> >>>
>
> The fictional nasty people of S.M. Stirling's Draka Empire alternate history
> sf series is an example of this.  The Draka are in some ways the modern
> equivalent of Sparta.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination

### This is a neat sf story.... but if we are talking about realistic
scenarios, I think that nastiness of this kind is strongly self
defeating, at least as long as there are competing political entities.
Keeping a lot of people in wretched servitude by brute force is just
not very productive. The Gulag is an example: millions of people
devoured and nary a thing to show for it. I am reasonably confident
that outright slavery is not a common thing among our highly-developed
galactic neighbors.

On the other hand, other nastiness may be viable: Killing off most
people after a group develops human-equivalent AI. Developing
mind-control techniques to make willing slaves (see Vinge's "A
Deepness in the Sky", an excellent book). The eternal world-spanning
AI-assisted dictatorship.

I am curious where we end up after the singularity.... I really am.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 17 01:24:02 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:24:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> Lee Corbin
> Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text
> 
> Is Jim talking about the way that (1) sometimes the HTML is 
> not flagged by my email reader as having an attachment, and 
> (2) sometimes it is? ... Lee

As moderator, I am not sure how to deal with this question.  Jim is sight
impared and wants to use the ExI chat features by speech synthesis.  I don't
know enough about how that system works to make a useful suggestion, so I am
most open to ideas.

spike







  



From rpwl at lightlink.com  Thu Apr 17 02:15:19 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:15:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] An Open Letter to AGI Investors
In-Reply-To: <006a01c89fcc$35eb3190$d912a8c0@books.local>
References: <284653740804101258i69297e57t6a855af7d42652a2@mail.gmail.com>
	<004001c89cb1$47cf1fc0$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804131312s33fc08aer1d4fc97074ffb204@mail.gmail.com>
	<003d01c89da8$1ed289c0$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804131421u78f2f8f5j38e30fc83739941f@mail.gmail.com>
	<00bc01c89e3e$aa4775b0$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804141317w7324c9e7od1c8726b0209eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<011701c89f0a$6bdd3e50$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804151259w71e78c39xd8b7a9c3387da83a@mail.gmail.com>
	<002c01c89f5b$44f757c0$c701a8c0@olympus>
	<284653740804160020v6325bf44v7dfc4b8e81deb883@mail.gmail.com>
	<006a01c89fcc$35eb3190$d912a8c0@books.local>
Message-ID: <4806B2B7.8040207@lightlink.com>


I have stuck my neck out and written an Open Letter to AGI (Artificial 
General Intelligence) Investors on my website at http://susaro.com.

All part of a campaign to get this field jumpstarted.

Next week I am going to put up a road map for my own development project.




Richard Loosemore






From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 03:03:03 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:03:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>

Wow, just .......wow... WTF?!!!!!!!!!!
this is the first time I have watched it, and i'll say again. WTF?
I am astounded that anyone can ramble on for so long and say nothing.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 6:32
Subject: Re: [ExI] $ci again



...
> ...That piece that Tom 
> Cruise recently made about Co$ may become the most parodied 
> video in history...


I don't know which was the critical tipping point for Co$: their prosecution
of Keith on phony charges which really stirred the internet community and
resulted in publicity that cannot even be bought, or the Cruise video which
is so profoundly absurd on so many levels, it is its own parody.

Here it is, in case you missed it the first time around: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

This video causes one to wonder how screwed up can a person be, and still
function at their job?  Perhaps being a Hollyweird actor is a special case,
which actually requires some degree of screwed uptitude.  

On the other hand, perhaps lives were saved by this video.  Imagine driving
in or around Hollyweird, get in a serious accident, wake up surrounded by
paramedics, Porsche pulls up and out jumps an actor, pushing the
professionals aside while insisting he is the only one who can really help.
You beg someone to have mercy just strangle you to hasten the inevitable and
end your misery.  Perhaps proles in southern Taxifornia will drive more
carefully with such a threat on the horizon.

spike




 

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 17 03:54:29 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:54:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <005201c8a014$648b4ce0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


	Subject: Re: [ExI] tiny martians again
	
	
	...I once had a beautiful co-worker from the former East Germany and
she was convinced that dwarfs had smaller brains and were generally the
intellectual inferiors of "full-sized" people...John Grigg



John, I have a biker buddy she should meet.  This very short man is a
mechanical technician who modified a motorcycle to fit his frame.  His trunk
is not so different from an ordinary person, but he has extremely short arms
and legs.  He fitted a smaller rear wheel, installed low profile tires,
modifed the suspension fore and aft using shortened springs and compensated
by using higher damping and higher spring rates, cut away part of the rear
fender to allow it to come down closer to the rear tire, removed nearly all
of the padding from the front of the seat so that when at a stoplight, he
moves forward, straddling the frame.  The frame is two parallel bars
foreward of the seat and aft of the tank, so he can straddle the bars
without damage to his manliness.  With all those individual solutions, the
front of the seat is only 26 inches from the pavement.  He built up this
bike mostly by himself, using mostly his own ideas.  But he still needed
about two inches to touch down.  I might have come up with all these ideas,
but he had one more idea I would never have thought of: he modified his
riding boots with extensions.

On a group ride he was wearing them, so I had to ask: Guy, how do you walk
in those things?  He said: Well... these boots ain't made for walking.  You
know what I had to say: ...and that's just what they won't do...  

You need to be nearly fifty to get that joke.

Regarding little people with smaller brains, I would argue thus: small
people evidently have sufficient brain matter up front to do what large
people do.  

At the start of WW2 (no I wasn't there dammit) the men went off in large
numbers to fight the war, so people (mostly women) poured into the aircraft
factories as replacements.  A group of little people who couldn't be
soldiers went into the factories, where they found a perfect job: they were
small enough to climb into the tail sections and other tiny spaces to
install and inspect control cables.  

Ordinarily workers came into the factories in the early war years with no
experience of any kind, so they were taught a skill: riveting, welding or
soldering for instance.  After they mastered a skill, they were given a
raise to the second tier.  A few of the workers already had a specific skill
when they started, so they started at a higher pay.  The midgets already had
a specific skill: climbing into tight spaces.  So Lockheeed, Doouglas and
Booeing did the logical thing: started them at the second tier.  I can
imagine that did wonders for their self esteem, especially considering that
ordinary sized people could never be trained into those positions: they were
too big.

A PBS special had an interview in which the little people commented that
these were some of the happiest years of their lives: they had been
chronically underemployed, some finding work with the circus, in the movies,
or in travelling comedy shows etc.  But when the war started, they were a
valuable asset for the war effort.  

When we do the numbers and realize how much more mission we can do with how
much less rocket, it looks to me all of the Mars missions should be
undertaken by these valuable specially-abled little persons.

spike




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 17 06:02:54 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:02:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system,  again)
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1208412281_629@s5.cableone.net>

At 06:17 PM 4/16/2008, Rafal wrote:

>On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, John Grigg 
><possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Rafal wrote:

snip

> > The fictional nasty people of S.M. Stirling's Draka Empire 
> alternate history
> > sf series is an example of this.  The Draka are in some ways the modern
> > equivalent of Sparta.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination
>
>### This is a neat sf story....

Silly actually.  It doesn't work well with EP.

>but if we are talking about realistic
>scenarios, I think that nastiness of this kind is strongly self
>defeating, at least as long as there are competing political entities.
>Keeping a lot of people in wretched servitude by brute force is just
>not very productive. The Gulag is an example: millions of people
>devoured and nary a thing to show for it. I am reasonably confident
>that outright slavery is not a common thing among our highly-developed
>galactic neighbors.
>
>On the other hand, other nastiness may be viable: Killing off most
>people after a group develops human-equivalent AI. Developing
>mind-control techniques to make willing slaves (see Vinge's "A
>Deepness in the Sky", an excellent book). The eternal world-spanning
>AI-assisted dictatorship.
>
>I am curious where we end up after the singularity.... I really am.

http://www.terasemjournals.org/GN0202/henson.html

An alternate view where the libertarian survivors of bio warfare 
seduce the population of the world out of physical existence.

Keith 



From scerir at libero.it  Thu Apr 17 06:44:21 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:44:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>

Damien:
> I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.

That might have a deep meaning. Since Wheeler started
the thread 'Goedel vs. Quantum', and many think it is possible
that, from 'inside', we cannot understand how the quantum
machinery (measurement, nonseparability, ecc.) really works.
Because the observer is an 'insider'.

-Arthur Komar, "Undecidability of Macroscopically Distinguishable
States in Quantum Field Theory", Physical Review, 133, (1964), p. B542
-Asher Peres, "Measurement of Time by Quantum Clocks", American Journal
of Physics, 48, (1980), p. 552
- Asher Peres, W.H. Zurek, "Is Quantum Theory Universally Valid?",
American Journal of Physics, 50, (1982), p. 807
- David. Z. Albert, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
98.A, (1983), p, 249
- Asher Peres, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
101.A, (1984), p. 249
- Asher Peres, "Einstein, Godel, Bohr", Foundations of Physics,
15, (1985), p. 201
- Peter Mittelstaedt, "The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and
the Measurement Process", CAmbridge U.P., 1998.
- Thomas Breuer, Quantenmechanick - Ein Fall fuer Goedel?, Spectrum,
Heidelberg, 1996
- Thomas Breuer, Classical Observables, Measurement and Quantum Mechanics,
Ph.D. Thesis, Un. of Cambridge, 1994
- Thomas Breuer, many papers at
http://www2.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/~tb/cms/
- Karl Svozil, "Randomness and Undecidability in Physics",
Singapore, World Scientific, 1993

"There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon
of quantum measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It
concerns *introspective* systems, where subject = object so
that the basic conception of a single subject observing an
ensemble of objects must be modified."
- David Finkelstein
in "The Physics of Logic" (in "Paradigms and Paradoxes",
ed. R. G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60)

"The assertion that 'we cannot signal faster than light'
immediately provokes the question: Who do we think *we* are?
*We* who can make 'measurements', *we* who can manipulate
'external fields', *we* who can 'signal' at all, even if not
faster than light? Do *we* include chemists, or only physicists,
plants, or only animals, pocket calculators, or only mainframe
computers?"
- John Bell

"In summary, let me tell a story from ten years ago, from 1979,
which was the centenary of Einstein's birth. There were many
meetings around the world celebrating this occasion. And at one
of them in New York I met a well-known physicist, John Wheeler.
I went up to Wheeler and I asked him, 'Prof. Wheeler, do you think
there's a connection between G?del's incompleteness theorem
and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?' Actually,
I'd heard that he did, so I asked him, 'What connection do you
think there is between G?del's incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle?'
This is what Wheeler answered. He said, 'Well, one day I was at the
Institute for Advanced Study, and I went to G?del's office, and there
was G?del...' I think Wheeler said that it was winter and G?del
had an electric heater and had his legs wrapped in a blanket.
Wheeler said, 'I went to G?del, and I asked him, `Prof. G?del, what
connection do you see between your incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle?'. I believe that Wheeler exaggerated a little bit
now. He said, 'And G?del got angry and threw me out of his office!'.
Wheeler blamed Einstein for this. He said that Einstein had brain-washed
G?del against quantum mechanics and against Heisenberg's uncertainty
principle!
In print I recently saw a for-the-record version of this anecdote
(Jeremy Bernstein, Quantum Profiles, Princeton University Press, 1991,
pp. 140-141), which probably is closer to the truth but is less dramatic.
It said, not that Wheeler was thrown out of G?del's office, but that G?del
simply did not want to talk about it since he shared Einstein's disapproval
of quantum mechanics and uncertainty in physics. Wheeler and G?del then
talked about other topics in the philosophy of physics, and about
cosmology."
- G. Chaitin










From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 07:08:53 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:38:53 +0930
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804170008w380f4d96h42b9eb5399e2e774@mail.gmail.com>

He could be a senator.

On 17/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:
> Wow, just .......wow... WTF?!!!!!!!!!!
> this is the first time I have watched it, and i'll say again. WTF?
> I am astounded that anyone can ramble on for so long and say nothing.
>
> Alex
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 6:32
> Subject: Re: [ExI] $ci again
>
> ...
> ...That piece that Tom
> Cruise recently made about Co$ may become
> the most parodied
> video in history...


I don't know which was the
> critical tipping point for Co$: their prosecution
of Keith on phony charges
> which really stirred the internet community and
resulted in publicity that
> cannot even be bought, or the Cruise video which
is so profoundly absurd on
> so many levels, it is its own parody.

Here it is, in case you missed it the
> first time around:
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

This video
> causes one to wonder how screwed up can a person be, and still
function at
> their job? Perhaps being a Hollyweird actor is a special case,
which
> actually requires some degree of screwed uptitude.

On the other hand,
> perhaps lives were saved by this video. Imagine driving
in or around
> Hollyweird, get in a serious accident, wake up surrounded by
paramedics,
> Porsche pulls up and out jumps an actor, pushing the
professionals aside
> while insisting he is the only one who can really help.
You beg someone to
> have mercy just strangle you to hasten the inevitable and
end your misery.
> Perhaps proles in southern Taxifornia will drive more
carefully with such a
> threat on the horizon.

spike




>

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat
> mailing
> list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> ________________________________
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour now.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 07:27:13 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:27:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6E7397089E55-163C-4BE@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>


I fully agree. The problems and hardships that 'small people' encounter in their daily lives are all related to the world being designed for us lofty people. In a Mars mission environment, or any other specific extra planetary mission. These problems would be non existent if the mission were designed for small people from the outset. Mind, you in space it doesn't really matter what level the light switch is at, when everyone is floating around!
I do have a couple of concerns about?a short people only mission. Can we find enough of them willing to take the risk? I am fairly sure that life has made them pretty hardy and up for just about any challenge, but it may smack of 'Hey short stuff, we want to blast you into space on a potentially life threatening mission rather than one of the good ole boys, Mainly cos you're cheap!. Wadda ya say?"

Secondly, if the mission were to be a long term or permanent affair with mixed sexes, then what happens when the first human martian (Marman? Hutian?) offspring turn out to be full sized? which is perfectly?possible. Granted, that is a problem that may present itself way down the line, and will most likely score very low on the problems list.

As a side note, I have noticed that in many alien abduction accounts, The abductee's speak about the stereotypical greys and also very short stature helpers. Perhaps?the greys thought about the an equivalent small people solution a few millennia before us? Perhaps a thoughtful abductee could bare this in mind next time they get whisked away to beta reticuli and ask if the greys?if the small ones are a result of?a cost cutting exercise? LOL

Alex
?

-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 4:54
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again

?



    Subject: Re: [ExI] tiny martians again
    
    
    ...I once had a beautiful co-worker from the former East Germany and
she was convinced that dwarfs had smaller brains and were generally the
intellectual inferiors of "full-sized" people...John Grigg



John, I have a biker buddy she should meet.  This very short man is a
mechanical technician who modified a motorcycle to fit his frame.  His trunk
is not so different from an ordinary person, but he has extremely short arms
and legs.  He fitted a smaller rear wheel, installed low profile tires,
modifed the suspension fore and aft using shortened springs and compensated
by using higher damping and higher spring rates, cut away part of the rear
fender to allow it to come down closer to the rear tire, removed nearly all
of the padding from the front of the seat so that when at a stoplight, he
moves forward, straddling the frame.  The frame is two parallel bars
foreward of the seat and aft of the tank, so he can straddle the bars
without damage to his manliness.  With all those individual solutions, the
front of the seat is only 26 inches from the pavement.  He built up this
bike mostly by himself, using mostly his own ideas.  But he still needed
about two inches to touch down.  I might have come up with all these ideas,
but he had one more idea I would never have thought of: he modified his
riding boots with extensions.

On a group ride he was wearing them, so I had to ask: Guy, how do you walk
in those things?  He said: Well... these boots ain't made for walking.  You
know what I had to say: ...and that's just what they won't do...  

You need to be nearly fifty to get that joke.

Regarding little people with smaller brains, I would argue thus: small
people evidently have sufficient brain matter up front to do what large
people do.  

At the start of WW2 (no I wasn't there dammit) the men went off in large
numbers to fight the war, so people (mostly women) poured into the aircraft
factories as replacements.  A group of little people who couldn't be
soldiers went into the factories, where they found a perfect job: they were
small enough to climb into the tail sections and other tiny spaces to
install and inspect control cables.  

Ordinarily workers came into the factories in the early war years with no
experience of any kind, so they were taught a skill: riveting, welding or
soldering for instance.  After they mastered a skill, they were given a
raise to the second tier.  A few of the workers already had a specific skill
when they started, so they started at a higher pay.  The midgets already had
a specific skill: climbing into tight spaces.  So Lockheeed, Doouglas and
Booeing did the logical thing: started them at the second tier.  I can
imagine that did wonders for their self esteem, especially considering that
ordinary sized people could never be trained into those positions: they were
too big.

A PBS special had an interview in which the little people commented that
these were some of the happiest years of their lives: they had been
chronically underemployed, some finding work with the circus, in the movies,
or in travelling comedy shows etc.  But when the war started, they were a
valuable asset for the war effort.  

When we do the numbers and realize how much more mission we can do with how
much less rocket, it looks to me all of the Mars missions should be
undertaken by these valuable specially-abled little persons.

spike


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 07:27:28 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:57:28 +0930
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804170027k1c7d842g41a872c0c4cf66ad@mail.gmail.com>

It sounds like the mail reader Jim's using is a bit lame, but I don't
know what the alternatives are.

Maybe you could clean out the html somehow? eg: if you make a yahoo
group or equivalent, subscribe to it, subscribe it to the exi list,
and get it to only send plain text messages, maybe that would clean
them up a bit for you, remove any html crap?

Something along those lines might make an interesting weekend project,
actually; take an email feed, clean it up as ideally as possible for
those using text-to-speech, then ship it out again. Might be a nice
feature for the exi list. I'd be willing to look at that, if someone
wants to host it, and if no one can come up with a better off the
shelf solution.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com

On 17/04/2008, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> > Lee Corbin
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text
> >
> > Is Jim talking about the way that (1) sometimes the HTML is
> > not flagged by my email reader as having an attachment, and
> > (2) sometimes it is? ... Lee
>
> As moderator, I am not sure how to deal with this question.  Jim is sight
> impared and wants to use the ExI chat features by speech synthesis.  I don't
> know enough about how that system works to make a useful suggestion, so I am
> most open to ideas.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From aleksei at iki.fi  Thu Apr 17 07:36:18 2008
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:36:18 +0300
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <005201c8a014$648b4ce0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <1db0b2da0804170036n56b97537y63342bd89277adba@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 6:54 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>  When we do the numbers and realize how much more mission we can do with how
>  much less rocket, it looks to me all of the Mars missions should be
>  undertaken by these valuable specially-abled little persons.

Good point, something I hadn't realized before.

Unfortunately the space programs that are just PR programs in
superpower politics would never want to give the impression of their
nation being a nation of midgets.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 07:47:32 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:47:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 2:24 AM, spike wrote:
>  As moderator, I am not sure how to deal with this question.  Jim is sight
>  impared and wants to use the ExI chat features by speech synthesis.  I don't
>  know enough about how that system works to make a useful suggestion, so I am
>  most open to ideas.
>


Spike and Lee's messages above, in this thread, are fine examples of
the type of plain text messages that Jim prefers.
Security paranoid people (like me) also prefer to avoid HTML and attachments.

The 'Boffins' message from Stefano is an example of the HTML formatted
messages that add lots of duplicated stuff and coding.

If you are using Gmail to compose a message, this is avoided by *not*
clicking on the 'Rich Formatting' option.
'Rich Formatting' is gmail's way of saying 'HTML formatting'.

BillK


From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 07:52:54 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:52:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>
	<000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>

I have always thought that a large problem in quantum measurement is the 'shutter speed'. How can we measure the position of something so quick when the measurement takes so long. For example we say that an electron occupies all positions around the nucleus at any given time. To me this is like saying, We took a photograph of the 400 metre race and from the measurement we can clearly state that all the runners occupied every position around the track in each of their lanes. So we have concluded that somehow the runners must be operating at a level of physics which defies our current understanding.
The real problem only becomes apparent when?someone realises the shutter speed of the camera is set to an exposure of 1 minute. In the same way, we are trying to measure the position of an electron which travels at C, when?our apparatus could?never hope to make a measurement quickly enough.

Just my 2 cents before I turn in for the night. Oops, it's day time again already. 24 is not enough hours! and this sleep thing just wastes my time.
Alex

? 
-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 7:44
Subject: Re: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler



Damien:
 I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.
That might have a deep meaning. Since Wheeler started
he thread 'Goedel vs. Quantum', and many think it is possible
hat, from 'inside', we cannot understand how the quantum
achinery (measurement, nonseparability, ecc.) really works.
ecause the observer is an 'insider'.
-Arthur Komar, "Undecidability of Macroscopically Distinguishable
tates in Quantum Field Theory", Physical Review, 133, (1964), p. B542
Asher Peres, "Measurement of Time by Quantum Clocks", American Journal
f Physics, 48, (1980), p. 552
 Asher Peres, W.H. Zurek, "Is Quantum Theory Universally Valid?",
merican Journal of Physics, 50, (1982), p. 807
 David. Z. Albert, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
8.A, (1983), p, 249
 Asher Peres, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
01.A, (1984), p. 249
 Asher Peres, "Einstein, Godel, Bohr", Foundations of Physics,
5, (1985), p. 201
 Peter Mittelstaedt, "The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and
he Measurement Process", CAmbridge U.P., 1998.
 Thomas Breuer, Quantenmechanick - Ein Fall fuer Goedel?, Spectrum,
eidelberg, 1996
 Thomas Breuer, Classical Observables, Measurement and Quantum Mechanics,
h.D. Thesis, Un. of Cambridge, 1994
 Thomas Breuer, many papers at
ttp://www2.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/~tb/cms/
 Karl Svozil, "Randomness and Undecidability in Physics",
ingapore, World Scientific, 1993
"There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon
f quantum measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It
oncerns *introspective* systems, where subject = object so
hat the basic conception of a single subject observing an
nsemble of objects must be modified."
 David Finkelstein
n "The Physics of Logic" (in "Paradigms and Paradoxes",
d. R. G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60)
"The assertion that 'we cannot signal faster than light'
mmediately provokes the question: Who do we think *we* are?
We* who can make 'measurements', *we* who can manipulate
external fields', *we* who can 'signal' at all, even if not
aster than light? Do *we* include chemists, or only physicists,
lants, or only animals, pocket calculators, or only mainframe
omputers?"
 John Bell
"In summary, let me tell a story from ten years ago, from 1979,
hich was the centenary of Einstein's birth. There were many
eetings around the world celebrating this occasion. And at one
f them in New York I met a well-known physicist, John Wheeler.
 went up to Wheeler and I asked him, 'Prof. Wheeler, do you think
here's a connection between G?del's incompleteness theorem
nd the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?' Actually,
'd heard that he did, so I asked him, 'What connection do you
hink there is between G?del's incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
ncertainty principle?'
his is what Wheeler answered. He said, 'Well, one day I was at the
nstitute for Advanced Study, and I went to G?del's office, and there
as G?del...' I think Wheeler said that it was winter and G?del
ad an electric heater and had his legs wrapped in a blanket.
heeler said, 'I went to G?del, and I asked him, `Prof. G?del, what
onnection do you see between your incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
ncertainty principle?'. I believe that Wheeler exaggerated a little bit
ow. He said, 'And G?del got angry and threw me out of his office!'.
heeler blamed Einstein for this. He said that Einstein had brain-washed
?del against quantum mechanics and against Heisenberg's uncertainty
rinciple!
n print I recently saw a for-the-record version of this anecdote
Jeremy Bernstein, Quantum Profiles, Princeton University Press, 1991,
p. 140-141), which probably is closer to the truth but is less dramatic.
t said, not that Wheeler was thrown out of G?del's office, but that G?del
imply did not want to talk about it since he shared Einstein's disapproval
f quantum mechanics and uncertainty in physics. Wheeler and G?del then
alked about other topics in the philosophy of physics, and about
osmology."
 G. Chaitin




______________________________________________
xtropy-chat mailing list
xtropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
ttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 07:57:06 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:57:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0804170008w380f4d96h42b9eb5399e2e774@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>
	<710b78fc0804170008w380f4d96h42b9eb5399e2e774@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6E77C3C6FA0D-163C-500@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! don't give them idea's !? I'm sure that plan is already in motion.

Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 8:08
Subject: Re: [ExI] $ci again



He could be a senator.

On 17/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:
> Wow, just .......wow... WTF?!!!!!!!!!!
> this is the first time I have watched it, and i'll say again. WTF?
> I am astounded that anyone can ramble on for so long and say nothing.
>
> Alex
>


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 09:55:01 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:55:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] plain text was Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
In-Reply-To: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
References: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <580930c20804170255m690f25fer190eb63c9c9b6282@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/16 Jim Stevenson <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov>:
>  Please forgive if you really want to attach html
>  and are using its features.

I use Gmail in Firefox under Linux. Usually, my posts are plain text.
However, when I am pasting in my message a text with graphics and
hyperlinks and different fonts, I have to resort to HTML not to lose
all of that on the way.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 10:01:35 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:01:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:47 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>  If you are using Gmail to compose a message, this is avoided by *not*
>  clicking on the 'Rich Formatting' option.
>  'Rich Formatting' is gmail's way of saying 'HTML formatting'.

Yes, this is clear. However, if you want to profit from HTML features,
there is no alternative. And yes, in many cases this is unnecessary
and equivalents can be found (e.g. *bold*, /italic/, etc.). On the
other hand, losing hyperlinks is sometimes a pity.

Stefano Vaj


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 17 14:22:36 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:22:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <1db0b2da0804170036n56b97537y63342bd89277adba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804171449.m3HEnIIO015091@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 6:54 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >  ...all of the Mars missions 
> > should be  undertaken by these valuable specially-abled 
> > little persons.
> 
> Good point, something I hadn't realized before.
> 
> Unfortunately the space programs that are just PR programs in 
> superpower politics would never want to give the impression 
> of their nation being a nation of midgets... Aleksei Riikonen 

Ask not what space programs are, but rather what they will be: governments
out, private funding in.  If done with private funding, using a tiny
astronaut is an option that suddenly becomes far more attractive, or even
completely necessary.


> ...Can we find enough of them willing to take the risk? ... Ablainey

Ja, for I propose taking only one.

>...what happens when the first human martian (Marman? Hutian?) offspring
turn out to be full sized?  ...Ablainey

We verify the astronaut is not pregnant when she leaves.  The mission is for
three years, no landing involved.  She gets out of a problem larger
astronauts would have: the body dumps calcium upon entering weightlessness,
much of that from the femurs.  A fifteen pound person would be effected much
less by the change.

She would operate partially autonomous remotely controlled construction
equipment from Mars synchronous orbit.  The stuff she would build from orbit
would be usable by ordinary sized people, who would come later. 

spike  



From scerir at libero.it  Thu Apr 17 14:31:07 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:31:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>
	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>

Alex:
I have always thought that a large problem 
in quantum measurement is the 'shutter speed'. [etc.]

# While position measurements are not performed
using cameras and shutters [1], it is true there is an 
impossibility of any sharp distinction between the
behaviour of atomic objects and the interaction
with the measuring instruments which serve to define
the conditions under which the phenomena appear.
This conspiracy has different names and faces, like
Bohr's complementarity [2], WAY theorem, KS contextuality.

[1]  The theoretical treatment of a very fast shutter requires (imo)
a time-dependent Schroedinger equation, and it is (imo) a difficult
subject. See,ie, Marcos Moshinshy 'Diffraction in Time', Physical Review, 
vol. 88, n. 3, (1952), pages 625-631.

[2] 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action, 
we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained 
in the description of atomic phenomena. In particular, 
any attempt at an ordering in space-time leads to 
a break in the causal chain, since such an attempt
is bound up with an essential exchange of momentum 
and energy between the individuals and the measuring
rods and clocks used for observation; and just this 
exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring 
instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, 
any conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the
strict conservation of energy and momentum, with
regard to the dynamical behaviour of the individual 
units obviously necessitates a complete renunciation 
of following their course in space and time'.
-N.Bohr, 'Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature', 
pp. 97-8, Cambridge University Press, 1934





From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 17 15:33:42 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:33:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com><038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com><2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rafal wrote in "Subject: Re: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)"


> ### Keeping a lot of people in wretched servitude by
> brute force is just not very productive.

I totally agree:  suppose you were a vastly superior AI
that had control of some limited amount of resources
(matter and energy), and suppose that you used sub-modules
and sub-programs for various things.  Why also include
circuits that caused your sub-programs to regret their
status?

The only important differences between my car and a
slave is (a) the slave regrets its situation (b) the slave
is conscious. If I create sub-programs that don't 
regret my control and who are conscious, then they're
more like employees or collaborators. I will not call
that slavery, unless you can persuade me that my car
is properly speaking a slave.

> I am reasonably confident that outright slavery is not
> a common thing among our highly-developed
> galactic neighbors.

Yes!  For the simple reason that generating the regret
and pining-away typical of slaves is not efficient.

> On the other hand, other nastiness may be viable: Killing off most
> people after a group develops human-equivalent AI. Developing
> mind-control techniques to make willing slaves (see Vinge's "A
> Deepness in the Sky", an excellent book). The eternal world-spanning
> AI-assisted dictatorship.

I agree, just that the "Focused" in VV's Deepness were an advance,
but obviously hardly the pinnacle of advanced surveillance techniques
or advanced AI.

There is utterly no reason to worry about slavery in a high-tech future.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 17 15:39:03 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:39:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com><ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stefano wrote


> However, if you want to profit from HTML features,
> there is no alternative. And yes, in many cases this
> is unnecessary and equivalents can be found (e.g.
> *bold*, /italic/, etc.). On the other hand, losing
> hyperlinks is sometimes a pity.

Why can't the hyperlink be converted to plain text?
I myself often copy things into a plain-text editor
to get rid of html before posting, and I've never had
any problem with links failing to show up.

Lee



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 17 15:28:29 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:28:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: KurzweilAI.net Daily Newsletter
Message-ID: <1208446217_2203@s8.cableone.net>


>The $100 Genome
>Technology Review April 17, 2008
>*************************
>Complete Genomics and
>BioNanomatrix, are collaborating to
>create a novel approach that would
>sequence your genome for $100 in a
>single day. The most recent figures
>for sequencing a human genome are
>$60,000 in about six weeks. Each DNA
>molecule will be threaded into a
>nanofluidics device, made
>BioNanomatrix, lined with rows of
>tiny...
>http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=8452&m=21115



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 17 15:56:26 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:56:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
Message-ID: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm

(See entire text below.) Since you'll see 50 stories a week
about "the increase", here are a few facts from the nature
article:

Summary:

* Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year.
* Since the beginning of the 20th Century, the global average
   surface temperature has risen by 0.74C.
* This would mean that temperatures have not risen globally
   since 1998 when El Nino warmed the world.

Putting those three facts together paints a different picture
from what we usually hear, doesn't it?

Lee

Entire text:
__________________________________________
Global temperatures 'to decrease'

By Roger Harrabin BBC News environment analyst

Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year as a result of the cold La Nina current in the Pacific, UN 
meteorologists have said.

The World Meteorological Organization's secretary-general, Michel Jarraud, told the BBC it was likely that La Nina would continue 
into the summer.

But this year's temperatures would still be way above the average - and we would soon exceed the record year of 1998 because of 
global warming induced by greenhouse gases.

The WMO points out that the decade from 1998 to 2007 was the warmest on record. Since the beginning of the 20th Century, the global 
average surface temperature has risen by 0.74C.

While Nasa, the US space agency, cites 2005 as the warmest year, the UK's Hadley Centre lists it as second to 1998.

Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any particular year is larger than these small temperature differences. 
What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Rises 'stalled'

LA NINA KEY FACTS La Nina 2008 Forecast (Source: UK Met Office Hadley Centre) La Nina translates from the Spanish as "The Child 
Girl" Refers to the extensive cooling of the central and eastern Pacific Increased sea temperatures on the western side of the 
Pacific mean the atmosphere has more energy and frequency of heavy rain and thunderstorms is increased Typically lasts for up to 12 
months and generally less damaging event than the stronger El Nino

La Nina and El Nino are two great natural Pacific currents whose effects are so huge they resonate round the world.

El Nino warms the planet when it happens; La Nina cools it. This year, the Pacific is in the grip of a powerful La Nina.

It has contributed to torrential rains in Australia and to some of the coldest temperatures in memory in snow-bound parts of China.

Mr Jarraud told the BBC that the effect was likely to continue into the summer, depressing temperatures globally by a fraction of a 
degree.

This would mean that temperatures have not risen globally since 1998 when El Nino warmed the world.
A minority of scientists question whether this means global warming has peaked and argue the Earth has proved more resilient to 
greenhouse gases than predicted.



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:04:29 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:04:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
>>There is utterly no reason to worry about slavery in a high-tech future.
I am not so sure.  I could see a powerful individual/government employing
slavery not out of a desire for economic profit but simply to "enjoy"
degrading former enemies and to eliminate the need to trust others (humans
have trouble with this!).  I also envision the slavery of genetically
engineered biological sentients who are created for such tasks as warfare or
sex work.  Never having known freedom, they may not even fully realize what
they are missing as they carry out their appointed roles in their society.
And they may be neurologically modified so that they will not be prone
toward the desire to rebel and be free.

You may say that soldiers or sex workers, etc., could simply be
human-like hardware bots instead of wetware biologicals.  But I bet some
future societies will want to augment their "hardware bot resources" with
sentient biologicals (both out of sentimentality and perhaps practicality,
machines may not be able to do everything better).

And then there is the subject of artificial intelligence slavery/AI civil
rights...

John Grigg
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From godsdice at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:10:46 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:10:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Me, my electromagnetic field and I - Don't Tase me Bro!
Message-ID: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>

I understand that each of us has a distinct electromagnetic field.  If this
is correct, what does that field do?  How might it be effected by an MRI?
How might it be effected by a taser?
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From godsdice at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:14:15 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:14:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
Message-ID: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>

It's said that yesterday's mashed potatoes become today's grey matter.  What
is the term for the process whereby the molecules of which we are comprised
are replaced over time?
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 17 17:21:22 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:21:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:14 AM 4/17/2008, you wrote:
>It's said that yesterday's mashed potatoes become today's grey 
>matter.  What is the term for the process whereby the molecules of 
>which we are comprised are replaced over time?

If you need to ask such a question, you should not be on this list.

Sorry,

Keith Henson 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 17 19:48:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:48:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>

At 08:56 AM 4/17/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm
>
>Summary:
>
>* Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year.

Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over! Oh, wait, it goes on:

>But this year's temperatures would still be way above the average - 
>and we would soon exceed the record year of 1998 because of global 
>warming induced by greenhouse gases....
>Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any 
>particular year is larger than these small temperature differences.
>What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Damien Broderick
[There we were this morning, tearing along the freeway at 80, then we 
went on a feeder and slowed for a red light. For the last 20 seconds, 
our speed dropped well below 80. In fact, it went to zero! A new 
trend! No-ideological-bullshit-conclusion: traveling from now on will 
be really, really slow]





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 17 20:23:37 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:23:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>

This is hardly news, but it's not a bad pop summary of in-built 
cognitive limitations:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?th&emc=th>

<We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices. One study 
presented listeners with static-filled recordings of speeches that 
they believed they were judging on persuasive power. Listeners could 
push a button to tweak the signal, reducing the static to make it 
easier to understand. When smokers heard a speech connecting tobacco 
with cancer, they didn't try to improve the clarity to hear it more 
easily. But they pushed the button to get a clearer version of a 
speech saying that there was no link between smoking and cancer. 
Nonsmokers were the exact opposite.

This resistance to information that doesn't mesh with our 
preconceived beliefs afflicts both liberals and conservatives, but a 
raft of studies shows that it is a particular problem with 
conservatives. For example, when voters receive mailings offering 
them free pamphlets on various political topics, liberals show some 
interest in getting conservative views. In contrast, conservatives 
seek only those pamphlets that echo their own views.

Likewise, liberal blogs overwhelmingly link to other liberal blogs or 
news sources. But with conservative blogs, the tendency is much more 
pronounced; it is almost a sealed universe.>

Damien Broderick



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 21:00:01 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:00:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "The 11th Hour" documentary
Message-ID: <2d6187670804171400g4486b501p9ad0cd2f6f0ab88d@mail.gmail.com>

Last night I viewed "The 11th Hour" with a local campus "save the planet
before it's too late" club.  I had read a bad review of the documentary in a
local paper, but upon actually watching it myself I have to admit to being
rather impressed.  Yes, Leonardo DiCaprio did *partially* narrate it, and
yet this was hardly "the end of the world." lol  The documentary went well
beyond the subject of global warming and focused much more on the matter of
our current civilization developing a *sustainable* system of
global economic development.  The "consumer/industrial use it/toss it/don't
bother recycling it/wreck the planet" culture we have now was strongly taken
to task for the way we are presently heading off a cliff.  But as smart and
reasonable alternatives were shown to the current state of things, I began
to think to myself as they rolled them out, "hey, this smacks of enlightened
Transhumanism."  : )

The official documentary website:

http://wip.warnerbros.com/11thhour/mainsite/site.html

A volunteer/action website connected to the documentary:

http://11thhouraction.com/

On Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/11th-Hour-Leonardo-DiCaprio/dp/B00005JPXA


John Grigg
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 17 20:35:19 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:35:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <688765.41261.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination
> 
> ### This is a neat sf story.... but if we are talking about realistic
> scenarios, I think that nastiness of this kind is strongly self
> defeating, at least as long as there are competing political
> entities.

While the nastiness of slavery could certainly be self-defeating
politically and morally, the real reason something like the Domination
of the Draka is doomed to failure is because of economics. A system
where a significant portion of ones wealth is invested in slaves is one
where one must feed, clothe, shelter, and keep in working condition a
bunch of people or lose ones investment. This is in addition to all the
expenses of keeping them subdued in the first place including the
occasional "example" that must be made from time to time.

It is far more efficient and cost effective to simply pay them a
nominal wage and let them worry about being able to afford food,
shelter, medicine, etc. Capitalism is superior to slavery because in
some respects, it is even more ruthless.  

> I am curious where we end up after the singularity.... I really am.

I have been working on this question lately. I have determined that
only nine generalized outcomes are possible. Albeit there can be subtle
variations of each potential outcome. I will elaborate with an essay
about this when I have time.




Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From godsdice at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 21:52:12 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:52:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>

Henson helpfully huffs:


> If you need to ask such a question, you should not be on this list.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Keith Henson


 Uh...Ooo-kay.  And some wonder why non-scientists ignore the singularly
important topics that are discussed on this list.

Like many on this list, I am here to learn.  My 12 years of post-secondary
education were unfortunately wasted in linguistics, law and, most
unfortunately, religion.  I regret not taking sciences.  I am doing what I
can as a lay person to learn.

I would hope that the good folks on this list would be happy to help those
of us who may be able to spread the gospel of extropy to the masses.

Oh, yeah, and I do accept your apology.

My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
that happens to us physically?

Respectfully,

Rick Strongitharm
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 17 22:10:24 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:10:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <301199.22055.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Rick Strongitharm <godsdice at gmail.com> wrote:

> My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the
> regeneration
> that happens to us physically?

Homeostatic maintenance is the general term for the ongoing process of
renewal in living things.



Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:13:06 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:13:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804171513p349b2747va551e480b6df43d7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
>  My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
> that happens to us physically?
>

Try Google or Wikipedia.

Search terms like 'body cell replacement' or similar might produce
interesting reading.

BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:52:10 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:52:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804171449.m3HEnIIO015091@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804171449.m3HEnIIO015091@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200804171752.10465.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, spike wrote:
> > Unfortunately the space programs that are just PR programs in
> > superpower politics would never want to give the impression
> > of their nation being a nation of midgets... Aleksei Riikonen
>
> Ask not what space programs are, but rather what they will be:
> governments out, private funding in. ?If done with private funding,
> using a tiny astronaut is an option that suddenly becomes far more
> attractive, or even completely necessary.

How about no funding? The open source model is proving effective. 
Technological manufacturing for open source groups is being solved at 
the moment (by *me* and others alike); we will win. Nobody will need 
funding: just access to raw materials. The internet provides the 
knowhow and programming to make it happen.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:54:42 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:54:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: KurzweilAI.net Daily Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <1208446217_2203@s8.cableone.net>
References: <1208446217_2203@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200804171754.42679.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
> >The $100 Genome
> >Technology Review April 17, 2008
> >*************************
> >Complete Genomics and
> >BioNanomatrix, are collaborating to
> >create a novel approach that would
> >sequence your genome for $100 in a
> >single day. The most recent figures
> >for sequencing a human genome are
> >$60,000 in about six weeks. Each DNA
> >molecule will be threaded into a
> >nanofluidics device, made
> >BioNanomatrix, lined with rows of
> >tiny...
> >http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=8452&m=2111
> >5

Yawn. Open source is the way of the future instead.

http://polonator.org/ - do it yourself pyrosequencing
http://biohack.sf.net/ - instructions and equipment ideas (needs work)
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ - biohack wiki for DIY sequencing etc.
http://openwetware.org/ - excellent wiki
http://biodatabase.org/ - for bioinformatics
http://diybio.org/ - Boston group (May 1 = first group meet)
http://biopunk.org/ - subculture

But if you want to go closed source:
http://decodeme.com/
http://23andme.com/
... among others. See a wiki: http://snpedia.com/

http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_sequencing
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/$0_genomics_project
http://personalgenomes.org/

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:57:08 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:57:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Me, my electromagnetic field and I - Don't Tase me Bro!
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804171757.08329.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
> I understand that each of us has a distinct electromagnetic field.
> ?If this is correct, what does that field do? ?How might it be
> effected by an MRI? How might it be effected by a taser?

Please be careful here. There are many kooks on the internet that talk 
about conscious and magnetic fields, and while there are magnetic 
fields that are important within the brain on the very microscopic 
scale, don't get trapped into the broader stuff. However! fMRI and MRI 
are in fact true technologies and have been demonstrated to work, I 
would suggest looking up open-rtms-list on transcentmentalism.org or 
something, etc. Allen Kay, I believe, has used rTMS to induce savantism 
in ordinary people. I have been busy coming up with schematics to work 
on this on my own. You can turn off regions of the brain with 
frequencies. Given low voltage rTMS machines, you can start to feel 
tingly sensations throughout your body, as if they are on your skin 
etc., just with a head cap and targetting the motor cortex. I am not 
exactly sure how the targetting works yet. I'll get back to you on 
this.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:58:22 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:58:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804171758.22638.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
> It's said that yesterday's mashed potatoes become today's grey
> matter. ?What is the term for the process whereby the molecules of
> which we are comprised are replaced over time?

You are what you eat -- you are what you cache.
http://fusionanomaly.net/
http://nexusofnow.org/
http://eugen.leitl.org/ for a good cache
~/cache/ (me) has lots of interesting stuff.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 17 23:15:19 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:15:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Me, my electromagnetic field and I
In-Reply-To: <200804171757.08329.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804171757.08329.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417181351.02634a90@satx.rr.com>

At 05:57 PM 4/17/2008 -0500, Bryan wrote:

>Allen Kay, I believe, has used rTMS to induce savantism
>in ordinary people.

Perhaps you mean Allan Snyder?

<http://www.centreforthemind.com/director/index.cfm> 



From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 01:12:30 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:12:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>

>Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over! Oh, wait, it goes on:

I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because?we have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and?a new?ice age is knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming?while happily cashing that big fat cheque. It makes me want to set fire to a big pile of tyres.
It?just about says it all when you see that those who were shouting about global cooling just a few decades ago and screaming for tax increases. Are now shouting about global warming and you guessed it, screaming for tax increases.

When 'experts' start rewriting excepted scientific principles to support their own interpretation of?censored data, when media coverage of all opposition is also censored and anyone with a dissenting voice is called an Earth rapist. You know its just a witch hunt. What happened to the medieval warm period? It seems? never to have happened. Where is the consensus? I can't see it. I must have missed the end of the debate, I think it must have ended with all dissenters being shot, thus argument settled. Shameful derailing of the scientific process and a damning indictment of the state of our media driven scientifically illiterate society.

How can you defeat such ignorance and blatant fraud? Show me the facts, not the opinions. 
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........
Alex

P.S? alternative energy=excellent idea in its own right, We don't need lies and unjustified taxation. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:48
Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease



At 08:56 AM 4/17/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm
>
>Summary:
>
>* Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year.

Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over! Oh, wait, it goes on:

>But this year's temperatures would still be way above the average - 
>and we would soon exceed the record year of 1998 because of global 
>warming induced by greenhouse gases....
>Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any 
>particular year is larger than these small temperature differences.
>What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Damien Broderick
[There we were this morning, tearing along the freeway at 80, then we 
went on a feeder and slowed for a red light. For the last 20 seconds, 
our speed dropped well below 80. In fact, it went to zero! A new 
trend! No-ideological-bullshit-conclusion: traveling from now on will 
be really, really slow]



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 02:22:13 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:22:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>
	<00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>
Message-ID: <8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>

I am sure you realised that 'shutter speed' referred to the timeframe of measurement and not the use of cameras. Just thought i'd clarify that in case?someone has visions of me taking snapshots down a microscope.?Thanks for the references, It is a subject which interests me , but I previously?have not had sufficient time to study to it to any serious degree. It is on my to do list :o)
Do you have any references to more recent works or current experiments?

I have to admit that I like the idea of a fractalic universe and as a nuts and bolts type of person, my own idea of an experiment that would show the position of electrons. Or at least show they don't occupy every available position. would be to fire discrete particles through the electron path at a perpendicular angle. Any impact would show the presence of an electron and a lack of impact would prove an absence. no? just like shooting between the blades of a ww2 biplane. 
Useless for measurement without disrupting the system being measured, but it would prove something about the electron position.
Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:31
Subject: Re: [ExI] John A. Wheeler



Alex:
I have always thought that a large problem 
in quantum measurement is the 'shutter speed'. [etc.]

# While position measurements are not performed
using cameras and shutters [1], it is true there is an 
impossibility of any sharp distinction between the
behaviour of atomic objects and the interaction
with the measuring instruments which serve to define
the conditions under which the phenomena appear.
This conspiracy has different names and faces, like
Bohr's complementarity [2], WAY theorem, KS contextuality.

[1]  The theoretical treatment of a very fast shutter requires (imo)
a time-dependent Schroedinger equation, and it is (imo) a difficult
subject. See,ie, Marcos Moshinshy 'Diffraction in Time', Physical Review, 
vol. 88, n. 3, (1952), pages 625-631.

[2] 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action, 
we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained 
in the description of atomic phenomena. In particular, 
any attempt at an ordering in space-time leads to 
a break in the causal chain, since such an attempt
is bound up with an essential exchange of momentum 
and energy between the individuals and the measuring
rods and clocks used for observation; and just this 
exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring 
instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, 
any conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the
strict conservation of energy and momentum, with
regard to the dynamical behaviour of the individual 
units obviously necessitates a complete renunciation 
of following their course in space and time'.
-N.Bohr, 'Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature', 
pp. 97-8, Cambridge University Press, 1934



________________________________________________________________________
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 03:19:50 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:19:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>

At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:

> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>
>I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming

Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
claims being pilloried!>?

Damien Broderick



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 03:30:40 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:30:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804172230.41166.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over!

Rant [not specifically re: above]:

It is irresponsible for anybody to view news about global warming 
without specifically coming up with a plan of action to deal with the 
situation, whether you want to reduce the global average temperature 
dx, or if you want to promote space habitats for humans, or if you want 
to do bioconservation, whatever. Just linking to news and promoting 
hype isn't really helping the situation: if it's really all that 
serious, then hell, start generating ideas, it's your env too. :) End 
rant.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 23:14:10 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:14:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] LA Times: A health message listeners can
	relate to
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804121509u10f5e271r82172c676dd7476e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29666bf30804121509u10f5e271r82172c676dd7476e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550804121614i4fdfa28bu25894e4b98739180@mail.gmail.com>

Right you are, PJ: People are moved more by narratives about folks just like
them than they are by facts and arguments. H+ would become more popular if
we had a Transhumanist Harry Potter. Now if only someone would write that
book....(hint, hint!).

Regards,
Mike LaTorra

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 4:09 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> In the past, I've discussed the issue of communicating complicated or
> confrontive concepts, like H+, to the general public.  Storytelling
> works.  Instead of listening to their doctors or assimilating and
> applying information from news sources (all of which they appear to
> reject) what seems to hit these listeners where they live are the
> stories about people just like them, battling the same diseases and
> making crucial medical and lifestyle choices.  Living through these
> character making the choices they themselves must make to survive,
> they find the transition to better choices easier and fulfilling.
>
> Talk about storytelling and empathy saving lives.
>
> PJ
>
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-radio11apr11,1,764846.story
>
> From the Los Angeles Times
> COLUMN ONE
> A health message listeners can relate to
> In the serialized radio drama 'BodyLove,' characters wrestle with
> diabetes and high blood pressure along with traditional soap-opera
> problems. They get through to audiences in a way doctors can't.
> By Stephanie Simon
> Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
>
> ....
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From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 01:30:46 2008
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:30:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>
	<009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <918a899d0804171830p53c83ebch45f14ffd0035cd0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Stefano wrote
>
>
> > However, if you want to profit from HTML features,
> > there is no alternative. And yes, in many cases this
> > is unnecessary and equivalents can be found (e.g.
> > *bold*, /italic/, etc.). On the other hand, losing
> > hyperlinks is sometimes a pity.
>
> Why can't the hyperlink be converted to plain text?
> I myself often copy things into a plain-text editor
> to get rid of html before posting, and I've never had
> any problem with links failing to show up.
>

>From a purely philosophical point of view, I find it interesting that we are
debating how best to bring everyone's level of posting to the lowest common
denominator (plain text) to suit the wishes of a very small minority of
individuals, rather than discussing how we can improve their own technology
to avail themselves of the best the list can, in theory, offer (html).
Hyperlinks are only one of many things that could get tossed in the
interests of accommodating the horse-and-buggy set.

There exist competent HTML mail programs that won't offer duplicates,
security programs (or settings in the aforementioned mail programs) that
will avail against malicious attachments, and so forth. Use 'em, sez I.

Joseph
http://www.seculartranshumanist.com
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 18 05:16:26 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:16:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804180543.m3I5h7HF013309@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> ... 
> Damien Broderick
> ...
> 
> Likewise, liberal blogs overwhelmingly link to other liberal 
> blogs or news sources. But with conservative blogs, the 
> tendency is much more pronounced; it is almost a sealed universe. Damien
Broderick


That observation would be entirely dependent upon how the orientation of the
blog is defined.  How does one objectively measure its liberality or
conservativity?  Can we invent a system whereby the number is the same when
I measure it and when you measure it?  Otherwise the above observation is
meaningless. 

spike






From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 06:18:48 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:18:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01c8a11c$4d4828b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

John Grigg writes

> Lee Corbin wrote:
>>There is utterly no reason to worry about slavery in a high-tech future.
> 
> I am not so sure.  I could see a powerful individual/government
> ploying slavery not out of a desire for economic profit but simply
>  "enjoy" degrading former enemies and to eliminate the need to
> ust others (humans have trouble with this!).

Over time, humans have had less and less "trouble" with this
(this urge to inflict pain or witness it). Every generation (controlling
for wealth, ethnicity, and many other variables), people become
nicer, and this has been going on for hundreds of years. Maybe
it's in part explainable as "being nice" or being generous is a
luxury, and that as we become freer of the threat of dire necessity,
so this change proceeds.

If it isn't *people* who dominate in the future, then it's pretty much
up in the air what the goals will be of our successors. However, I
don't see much chance---what would be the mechanism?---for
the development of gratuitous cruelty.

> I also envision the slavery of genetically engineered biological
> ntients who are created for such tasks as warfare or sex work.
> Never having known freedom, they may not even fully realize
> what they are missing as they carry out their appointed roles
> in their society.

If they've been created to do work (i.e. for some purpose), then
in my view they belong to their creators. And for me, it's especially
unproblematical if aren't suffering, but are rather enjoying it. (And
why shouldn't they enjoy it? Even now, drugs are cheap, and 
there shouldn't be a premium at all on a very pleasant existence
in the future for created entities.)

Lee

> And then there is the subject of artificial intelligence slavery/AI civil rights...



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 06:43:51 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:43:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien points out


> This is hardly news, but it's not a bad pop summary of in-built 
> cognitive limitations:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?th&emc=th>
> 
> <We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices....
> 
> This resistance to information that doesn't mesh with our 
> preconceived beliefs afflicts both liberals and conservatives,
> but a raft of studies shows that it is a particular problem with 
> conservatives.

Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
things along the lines of counting the political opposition
as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for spouting his
"nonsense".

And then we had "The Authoritarian Personality". The urge
to go after the opposition this way, especially after conservatives,
is hardly dead. Much newer, but still with mostly the same
old ideological biases is "The Authoritarians"
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ by Altemeyer.
I wish I could find the quite stunning refutation of that
that I read a while back. There's this, but it's not as good:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/9/9/163159/0532

But I don't think that this on-the-whole lamentable tendency to
reinforce our own prejudices is all bad. It may partly simply
be a byproduct of trying to learn more. For example, I used
to be able to listen to talk shows or read editorials by my
political opposites or religious opposites, but so often now,
even the first few  sentences contain implicit propositions that
simply no longer make any sense to me. If you've decided
long ago, for example, that Darwinism is opposed to the
Lord's teaching---or vice versa---there is a definite limit to
what you can learn from your opposites' explanations.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 06:52:21 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:52:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re:  Global Temperatures to Decrease)
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien writes


> At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:
> 
>> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
>> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>>
>> I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>> on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>> have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>> knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming
> 
> Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
> warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
> claims being pilloried!>?

It looks to me as though Alex saw through (thankfully!) your
ironical retort, because he's rebutting the point you're *really*
making, no? 

Or am I missing something?   Recap:  Lee links to "not warming", then
Damien implies "global warming is not bullshit", and then Alex rebuts
the global warming "meme". 

But I totally agree that we cannot do without irony and sarcasm on
this list. At least I can't   :-)

Lee



From amara at amara.com  Fri Apr 18 08:56:59 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:56:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
 or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
Message-ID: <p06230901c42e11f409ec@[192.168.1.70]>


>But I totally agree that we cannot do without irony and sarcasm on
>this list. At least I can't   :-)
>
>Lee

resending an old message

--------------sent 5/23/02 to extropians--------------------------------

To: extropians at extropy.org
From: Amara Graps <amara at amara.com>
Subject: Communication Skills books


_Messages: The Communication Skills Book_ by Matthew McKay, Martha Davis,
and Patrick Fanning, 1983, New Harbinger Publications. How to communicate
effectively, for example showing a difference between aggressive
communication (such as sarcasm) and assertive communication.

-- also:
_How to Argue and Win Every Time_ by Gerry Spence. I like very much
Spence's perspective on stories.


-------------------------------------

greetings from Tallinn,
Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From scerir at libero.it  Fri Apr 18 08:59:03 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:59:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com><00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>
	<8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>

Alex:
> Do you have any references to more recent works
> or current experiments?

"Turning now to the question of the empirical support
[about the uncertainty principle], we unhesitatingly
declare that rarely in the history of physics
has there been a principle of such universal importance
with so few credentials of experimental tests".
-Max Jammer, 1974.

Not sure that things changed so much in the last 35 years.
Perhaps Bush & Lahti wrote something at the end of this
paper http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0609185 (see chapter 7).

But experiments more or less about uncertainty principle
(the famous EPR is a gedanken experiment about that)
are now performed using bi-photons (two momentum-position
entangled photons, or two time-energy entangled photons).
www.physik.fu-berlin.de/~simons/Publikationen/RevModPhys99.pdf
http://techdigest.jhuapl.edu/td1604/Franson.pdf
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0106078
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201036
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0503073
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0512207

> [...] my own idea of an experiment that would show the
> position of electrons. Or at least show they don't occupy 
> every available position. would be to fire discrete particles 
> through the electron path at a perpendicular angle. 
> Any impact would show the presence of an electron and a
> lack of impact would prove an absence. no? 

Good luck. 
But there is some difference between
the - ex ante - 'probability cloud' 
and the - ex post - tiny particle. 
And ... attention to the nodal plane
of the orbitals ...
http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/p-orbital-paradox.html 





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 10:22:09 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:22:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Transumanisti] Uscito il primo numero di Divenire
In-Reply-To: <fu86eo+mhdd@eGroups.com>
References: <fu86eo+mhdd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804180322n646e24ane2f868e08880e06c@mail.gmail.com>

I am very proud to inform you that the first issue of "Divenire -
Rassegna di studi interdisciplinari sulla tecnica e il postumano", the
Associazione Italiana Transumanisti-sponsored first European
transhumanist review on paper, is eventually out, as per the
announcement below of our beloved chairman, Riccardo Campa, to the
Italian list.

>From the presentation:

"Il volume ? diviso in quattro sezioni principali: Attualit?,
Genealogia, Futurologia, Libreria. Nella sezione 'Attualit?' compaiono
studi attinenti a problematiche metatecniche del presente. La sezione
'Genealogia' ? invece dedicata a studi storici sui precursori delle
attuali tendenze transumaniste, futuriste, prometeiche ? dunque sul
passato della metatecnica. Nella sezione 'Futurologia' trovano spazio
esplorazioni ipotetiche del futuro, da parte di futurologi di
professione o di scrittori di fantascienza. La sezione 'Libreria' ?
infine dedicata alle analisi critiche di libri concernenti la
tecnoscienza, il postumano, il transumanesimo.
Nel numero 1/2008, per la sezione 'Attualit?' abbiamo un intervento
sui fondamenti dell'etica nell'era della tecnoscienza del filosofo
Alberto Masala, ricercatore della Sorbona, ed un articolo del giurista
Stefano Vaj sulla riproduzione artificiale. Nella sezione intitolata
'Genealogia', il lettore trover? un saggio di Riccardo Campa su Leon
Trotsky e la sua visione ipertecnologica del socialismo, nonch? uno
studio del filosofo e giornalista Adriano Scianca sulla concezione
superomistica dell'Operaio elaborata da J?nger. Per quanto riguarda la
'Futurologia', il presente volume accoglie un articolo sulla
Singolarit? tecnologica dello scrittore Giovanni De Matteo, vincitore
del Premio Urania 2006 con il romanzo Sezione Pi-Quadro. Infine, nella
'Libreria' del numero 1/2008, vengono valutate due opere letterarie.
Il Prof. Giuseppe Marcon, ordinario di Economia all'Universit? Ca'
Foscari di Venezia, ci propone una dettagliata recensione del libro di
Riccardo Campa 'Etica della scienza pura', mentre il giovane filosofo
Francesco Boco si ? assunto il compito di recensire l'interessante
volume di Aldo Schiavone 'Storia e destino'."

Everyone interested in submitting essays for upcoming issues is
welcome to do so. As for the language of the manuscripts, French,
German, English, Spanish, Polish, Portoguese, and obviously Italian,
are fine.

Stefano Vaj

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Riccardo Campa <riccardo_campa at yahoo.com>
Date: 2008/4/17
Subject: [Transumanisti] Uscito il primo numero di Divenire
To: Transumanisti at yahoogroups.com

Cari amici e associati, ho il piacere di comunicarvi che e' uscito il
 primo numero di Divenire, la nostra rivista cartacea acquistabile
 presso l'editore e in varie librerie virtuali.
 Per i contenuti del numero 1/2008 vedi qui:
 http://www.sestanteedizioni.com
 (sezione saggistica)

 Ciao,
 Riccardo


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 13:00:35 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:00:35 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/04/2008, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

> You may say that soldiers or sex workers, etc., could simply be human-like
> hardware bots instead of wetware biologicals.  But I bet some future
> societies will want to augment their "hardware bot resources" with sentient
> biologicals (both out of sentimentality and perhaps practicality, machines
> may not be able to do everything better).

I can't imagine that anyone would use resentful biologicals if
machines can do an equal or better job and either not mind or love it.
The only reason for doing this would be sadism. There are some
sadists, of course, but the vast majority of the vast amount of evil
in human history is not driven by sadism. Bad people are bad because
they gain something out of it other than pleasure in badness.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 13:07:54 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:07:54 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
>  things along the lines of counting the political opposition
>  as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
>  number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
>  that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for spouting his
>  "nonsense".

Mental illness is not a social construct any more than hepatitis or
renal failure is a social construct.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 13:14:19 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:14:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com><012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stathis writes


> Lee wrote:
> 
>>  Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
>>  things along the lines of counting the political opposition
>>  as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
>>  number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
>>  that [one candidate] was mentally ill for spouting his "nonsense".
> 
> Mental illness is not a social construct any more than hepatitis or
> renal failure is a social construct.

What is your opinion of Thomas Szasz's claims, e.g., "The Myth
of Mental Illness"?

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 14:34:08 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:34:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
If they've been created to do work (i.e. for some purpose), then
in my view they belong to their creators. And for me, it's especially
unproblematical if aren't suffering, but are rather enjoying it. (And
why shouldn't they enjoy it? Even now, drugs are cheap, and
there shouldn't be a premium at all on a very pleasant existence
in the future for created entities.)
>>>

Oh, my gosh!  I can't believe you said these things! : (  I feel like you
are advocating the "enlightened" enslaving of genetically engineered
sentients!  A biological sentient conditioned by drugs and/or genetic
engineering to enjoy his/her/its slavery (oh, but they will never use this
word...) is still a slave.  "Oh, brave new world!"

you wrote:
If they've been created to do work (i.e. for some purpose), then
in my view they belong to their creators.
>>>

This would be very very wrong.  But I could see laws set up whereby a
"created" sentient is a decently treated "endentured servant" for a number
of years to "pay back" their creator.  At a certain point the sentient gets
the choice of moving on, all debts paid, or staying on and being reimbursed
like a regular employee for their work.

John Grigg
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From mark at cosmicpenguin.com  Fri Apr 18 05:58:49 2008
From: mark at cosmicpenguin.com (Mark S Bilk)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:58:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080418055849.GB14312@Isis>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 05:52:12PM -0400, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
>...
>My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
>that happens to us physically?

How about _anabolism_: a metabolic process in which energy 
is used to make compounds and tissues from simple molecules



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 18 15:15:49 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:15:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804181516.m3IFFodN008930@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Lee Corbin
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:44 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
> 
> Damien points out
> 
> 
> > This is hardly news, but it's not a bad pop summary of in-built 
> > cognitive limitations:
> > 
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?th&emc=th>
> > 
> > <We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices....
> > 
> > This resistance to information that doesn't mesh with our 
> > preconceived beliefs afflicts both liberals and conservatives...
>

>  That observation would be entirely dependent upon how the orientation of
the blog is defined... spike
 
> Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? ... Lee

This gave me a hell of an idea.  An individual cannot objectively decide if
a blog is conservative or liberal, for her own biases are inescapable.  But
a group may be able to do so.  Here is my experiment.  Suggest any number of
blogs, websites, news sites, etc that can be accessed by internet.  Then
choose one or the other: more liberal or more conservative.  Let's use 0 for
more liberal and 1 for more conservative, since 0 is to the left of 1.  Rate
as many or as few as you want on the list, or rate the ones you already know
about.  For instance, my list might be:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php  (1)
http://www.electoral-vote.com/  (0)
http://victorhanson.com/index.html  (1)
http://www.dailykos.com/  (0)

Post them to me offlist if you wish, or posting here would be OK, but it
might influence others' ratings.  I will compile them into a spreadsheet and
calculate a rating that can be reproduced by other groups.

spike 








From scerir at libero.it  Fri Apr 18 15:17:16 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:17:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI]  Edward Lorenz
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com><00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede><8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>
	<000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <000301c8a167$4c713490$17e71e97@archimede>

Edward N. Lorenz died (on April 16).
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5isDQYRWLiBvPDklguo8vjtzlN1tQ
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/18/db1801.xml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Norton_Lorenz

His 'Attractor'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_attractor
http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~ldb/seminar/attractors.html

The 'Butterfly' effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

One of his (old) papers
http://tinyurl.com/3dw95d





From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Fri Apr 18 15:23:39 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:23:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <20080418055849.GB14312@Isis>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080418055849.GB14312@Isis>
Message-ID: <4808BCFB.8070203@insightbb.com>

Or much more basic - cell division.....


Mark S Bilk wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 05:52:12PM -0400, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
>   
>> ...
>> My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
>> that happens to us physically?
>>     
>
> How about _anabolism_: a metabolic process in which energy 
> is used to make compounds and tissues from simple molecules
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   
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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 15:57:15 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:57:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
 or Miscommunication? (Was Re:  Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <8CA6F8401C21CC1-1154-79D@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>


LOL, I think that sums it up. However apologies for the rant. It wasn't directed entirely at Damien, his post was mainly?just the catalyst which caught me in a bad mood at the end of a long day.
Irony, Sarcasm, any form of humour, It's all good with me. I agree it is essential for a healthy list and my real apology is that I didn't have the strength to include much in my?rant.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 7:52
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony, or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)



Damien writes


> At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:
> 
>> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
>> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>>
>> I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>> on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>> have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>> knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming
> 
> Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
> warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
> claims being pilloried!>?

It looks to me as though Alex saw through (thankfully!) your
ironical retort, because he's rebutting the point you're *really*
making, no? 

Or am I missing something?   Recap:  Lee links to "not warming", then
Damien implies "global warming is not bullshit", and then Alex rebuts
the global warming "meme". 

But I totally agree that we cannot do without irony and sarcasm on
this list. At least I can't   :-)

Lee

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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 16:00:01 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:00:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6F84644961E1-1154-7BE@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>

Damien, not at all. You just caught me at a bad time and the subject hit a nerve. Your irony wasn't lost and was received in the spirit it was given. It was my response that was lacking the irony needed.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 4:19
Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease



At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:

> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>
>I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming

Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
claims being pilloried!>?

Damien Broderick

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 16:04:55 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:04:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com><00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>	<8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>
	<000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <8CA6F8513DB6501-1154-811@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks for the links. It will probably take a while to digest it all. Interesting that there hasn't been that much movement in the past few decades, or seems that way.
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 9:59
Subject: Re: [ExI] John A. Wheeler



Alex:
> Do you have any references to more recent works
> or current experiments?

"Turning now to the question of the empirical support
[about the uncertainty principle], we unhesitatingly
declare that rarely in the history of physics
has there been a principle of such universal importance
with so few credentials of experimental tests".
-Max Jammer, 1974.

Not sure that things changed so much in the last 35 years.
Perhaps Bush & Lahti wrote something at the end of this
paper http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0609185 (see chapter 7).

But experiments more or less about uncertainty principle
(the famous EPR is a gedanken experiment about that)
are now performed using bi-photons (two momentum-position
entangled photons, or two time-energy entangled photons).
www.physik.fu-berlin.de/~simons/Publikationen/RevModPhys99.pdf
http://techdigest.jhuapl.edu/td1604/Franson.pdf
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0106078
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201036
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0503073
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0512207

> [...] my own idea of an experiment that would show the
> position of electrons. Or at least show they don't occupy 
> every available position. would be to fire discrete particles 
> through the electron path at a perpendicular angle. 
> Any impact would show the presence of an electron and a
> lack of impact would prove an absence. no? 

Good luck. 
But there is some difference between
the - ex ante - 'probability cloud' 
and the - ex post - tiny particle. 
And ... attention to the nodal plane
of the orbitals ...
http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/p-orbital-paradox.html 



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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 18 15:32:44 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:32:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>

At 06:00 AM 4/18/2008, Stathis wrote:
>On 18/04/2008, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You may say that soldiers or sex workers, etc., could simply be human-like
> > hardware bots instead of wetware biologicals.  But I bet some future
> > societies will want to augment their "hardware bot resources" with sentient
> > biologicals (both out of sentimentality and perhaps practicality, machines
> > may not be able to do everything better).
>
>I can't imagine that anyone would use resentful biologicals if
>machines can do an equal or better job and either not mind or love it.

Exactly.  In the future biologicals or machines will be designed so 
they love what they do.  I.e., Suskulan who gives the villigers what 
they want.  Poof!

>The only reason for doing this would be sadism. There are some
>sadists, of course, but the vast majority of the vast amount of evil
>in human history is not driven by sadism. Bad people are bad because
>they gain something out of it other than pleasure in badness.

I think it's more complicated and worse in a way.  Most of what we 
consider evil is just the outcome of evolved mechanisms that--when 
prospects look bleak--go into a mode that fixes the problem.  Since 
almost all such problems can be fixed by reducing the population, 
that's what happens.

Keith 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 16:38:54 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:38:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
 or Miscommunication? (Was Re:  Global  Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>

At 11:52 PM 4/17/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:

>It looks to me as though Alex saw through (thankfully!) your
>ironical retort, because he's rebutting the point you're *really*
>making, no?
>
>Or am I missing something?   Recap:  Lee links to "not warming", then
>Damien implies "global warming is not bullshit",

There were two steps in what I posted.

The first was to point out *from your own source* that what you were 
citing made exactly the *contrary* argument to yours.

The second, bracketed after my name, was ironical: a sort of 
equivalent bogus "argument" proving that traffic on highways is 
slowing down. What my sarcastic counter-example tried to undermine 
was the structure of inference in Lee's post.

>and then Alex rebuts
>the global warming "meme".

Alex failed to rebut anything I said, which is why I took his 
comments the way I did (evidently in error). He *asserted* that 
anthropogenic global climate change was non-existent, without making 
any rebuttal of Lee's citation from a climate scientist. He expressed 
vehement *disagreement*--

<Where is the consensus? I can't see it. I must have missed the end 
of the debate, I think it must have ended with all dissenters being 
shot, thus argument settled. Shameful derailing of the scientific 
process and a damning indictment of the state of our media driven 
scientifically illiterate society. How can you defeat such ignorance 
and blatant fraud? Show me the facts, not the opinions. >

--without any attempt (other than a reference to past fluctuations) 
to show that this is incorrect:

 >Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any
 >particular year is larger than these small temperature differences.
 >What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Calling "I think it must have ended with all dissenters being shot" a 
*rebuttal* is the same class of error made by the media when people 
are said to have "refuted" a charge against them when all they've 
done is *denied* it.

Damien Broderick






From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 17:04:52 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:04:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804181004g23f30c05qd5e421cdc3252084@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>
>  There were two steps in what I posted.
>
>  The first was to point out *from your own source* that what you were
>  citing made exactly the *contrary* argument to yours.
>
>  The second, bracketed after my name, was ironical: a sort of
>  equivalent bogus "argument" proving that traffic on highways is
>  slowing down. What my sarcastic counter-example tried to undermine
>  was the structure of inference in Lee's post.
>


This reply is so ironical, it has become post-ironical, gone into
another universe and come back round the other side.


BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 17:50:37 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:50:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad people
In-Reply-To: <1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418124233.02322d20@satx.rr.com>

At 08:32 AM 4/18/2008 -0700, Keith wrote:

> >The only reason for doing this would be sadism. There are some
> >sadists, of course, but the vast majority of the vast amount of evil
> >in human history is not driven by sadism. Bad people are bad because
> >they gain something out of it other than pleasure in badness.
>
>I think it's more complicated and worse in a way.  Most of what we
>consider evil is just the outcome of evolved mechanisms that--when
>prospects look bleak--go into a mode that fixes the problem.

At least some bad people are bad because (it seems) their brains are 
wired for what's called "borderline personality disorder." This seems 
to be an emergent condition induced by circumstances in their life 
that, had the circumstances been more benign, might have not produced 
a mad, bad sociopath. The behavioral bias seems to be endogenous, not 
purely environmental. A popsci book on the topic that's moderately 
worth reading (it's not terrifically rigorous) is EVIL GENES, by 
Barbara Oakley. It has an amusing subtitle (look for it on amazon) 
that cashes out into a rather grim tale. I've known at least one 
person like this, and the damaged people she's interacted with from a 
position of power.

Damien Broderick 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 18:09:10 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:09:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad people
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418124233.02322d20@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418124233.02322d20@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804181109g24858812t5d348ee42e2ae1ab@mail.gmail.com>

"The Sociopath Next Door" is also a book worth checking out.

http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208542071&sr=8-1


John : (
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 19:03:05 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:03:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Richard Dawkins Lecture & Aubrey de Grey, too!
Message-ID: <2d6187670804181203u142ef25ar5170347a83b09164@mail.gmail.com>

I went to a Richard Dawkins lecture at ASU and it was excellent. I was not
quite sure what to expect of the man but I found him to be mild mannered (I
somehow expected the angry atheist stereotype), charming in that classic
British gentlemanly way, and at times extremely funny. He started off with a
statement that occurred to me many years ago, "why do children usually
follow in their parent's religion, and why does that particular religion
just so happen to be the only true and right one?" lol I personally believe
in God but it was good to have him put my beliefs up to a mirror for closer
examination. His slideshow presentation was the focal point of his humorous
asides. And yes, Monty Python was excerpted at several points!

Dawkins surprised me by declaring that he is agnostic and not a 100% atheist
in that he feels there is a very small chance of their being some sort of
powerful deity/super being out there. He just sees no current evidence for
it. The other surprise was that Dawkins (reminded me of the Star Trek 5
plot) considers it an actual duty of science in the decades/centuries ahead
to "track down and contact" God, should such a being actually exist, but be
hanging back and waiting for us to reach out to it. I can envision people
being brought back from cryonic suspension and getting told, "oh, Seti
contacted intelligent alien life decades ago, and now they are trying to
make contact with God!" heehee

He also made the Greater Phoenix/Tempe community proud by saying, "in ALL
his travels to speak, he has never spoken to a crowd as large as what ASU
produced for him!" The crowd cheered and clapped wildly at that! lol The
Gammage Performing Arts Building can seat over 3,000 and only a tiny handful
of seats were empty! I wanted to shake his hand and get an autograph but the
line to see him was several hundred feet long and I had to work the next day
(the man is surely a celebrity and I was glad to see police standing behind
him, just in case). I finally gave up on waiting! lol

Since taking in his lecture I have seen the several crazy episodes of
Southpark where he made his "guest appearance." The teaching of evolution in
public schools was the major plot point and done as only Southpark does it!
Dawkins is shown as a very kind and proper gentleman, but what the writers
"did with him" really floored me. In an interview Dawkins stated that if
there was a serious point to the episodes that he could not discern it! And
he was also bothered by the fake British accent "he" was given by the voice
actor who played him.

The Dawkins lecture started at the very same time as a debate across town
starring Aubrey de Grey "up against" Jay Olshansky. Arghh! lol I chose to
see Dawkins. Aubrey thought this was the right choice (I bumped into him the
day before at ASU, he had both a Christian Bioethics Conference and a
Methusalah Mouse meeting to attend!), and he said his debate would likely be
recorded and I could get a copy.
It was a pleasure to learn more about each of these great men.

John Grigg  : )
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 20:19:35 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:19:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>
	<009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <580930c20804181319n141e76c6u92c08246e0d5b5e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>  Why can't the hyperlink be converted to plain text?
>  I myself often copy things into a plain-text editor
>  to get rid of html before posting, and I've never had
>  any problem with links failing to show up.

I meant working, clickable hyperlinks. Sure, one can cut-and-past a
textual URL in one's Web browser... But don't they disturb one's
reading, especially in the even of deep, very long URLs?

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 20:21:53 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:21:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <918a899d0804171830p53c83ebch45f14ffd0035cd0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>
	<009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<918a899d0804171830p53c83ebch45f14ffd0035cd0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804181321g52858d5pff56c0a4df13b5b8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 3:30 AM, Joseph Bloch
<seculartranshumanist at gmail.com> wrote:
> There exist competent HTML mail programs that won't offer duplicates,
> security programs (or settings in the aforementioned mail programs) that
> will avail against malicious attachments, and so forth. Use 'em, sez I.

I am a little lost here. As a Linux/Firefox/Gmail user, I cannot say
that I have ever experienced a security breach owing to HTML
formatting in an incoming e-mail message.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 20:31:38 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:31:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <580930c20804181331l74c703a7kfc11e7787da20744@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>  The only important differences between my car and a
>  slave is (a) the slave regrets its situation (b) the slave
>  is conscious. If I create sub-programs that don't
>  regret my control and who are conscious, then they're
>  more like employees or collaborators. I will not call
>  that slavery, unless you can persuade me that my car
>  is properly speaking a slave.

Mmhhh. The problems with slavery do not stop with how it affects the
slaves, but rather have also to do on how it affects the "masters'"
economy, culture and civilisation in the medium and long term.

Stefano Vaj


From godsdice at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 20:40:56 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:40:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <4808BCFB.8070203@insightbb.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080418055849.GB14312@Isis> <4808BCFB.8070203@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>

To clarify my question, while the atoms that make up the molecules, cells
and organs, are continually being replaced, there is continuity of something
subjective.  I walked away from the highly baggaged concepts of soul or
spirit two decades ago.

Bottom line, what will get uploaded?  Will it retain individuality,
subjectivity, that continuity?

Rick Strongitharm

"I thought I was wrong once, but I was wrong."

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
wrote:

>  Or much more basic - cell division.....
>
>
>
> Mark S Bilk wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 05:52:12PM -0400, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
>
>
>  ...
> My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
> that happens to us physically?
>
>
>  How about _anabolism_: a metabolic process in which energy
> is used to make compounds and tissues from simple molecules
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 20:44:58 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:44:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>  Alex failed to rebut anything I said, which is why I took his
>  comments the way I did (evidently in error). He *asserted* that
>  anthropogenic global climate change was non-existent, without making
>  any rebuttal of Lee's citation from a climate scientist. He expressed
>  vehement *disagreement*--

I think there are four entirely different issues involved in Global
Warming from a H+ point of view:
i) does it exist in the first place?
ii) assuming that i) is true, is it anthropogenic?
iii) assuming that i) is true, and irrespective of whether ii) is true
or not, is it an entirely negative development?
iv) assuming that i and iii) is true, and irrespective of wheher ii)
is true or not, should be avoided at any price, or (in other terms)
what price would be acceptable to avoid or limit it? E.g., would it be
fine to sacrifice more human lives, tech progress, life quality than
would be spared by accepting its assumed adverse consequences, were it
necessary to reduce it?

Point ii) and iv) are important, because interestingly it appears from
polls that many people who would be ready to accept important
sacrifices to limit an anthropogenic global warming would not be
willing to accept a fraction of them to embark in geo-engineering
projects aimed at reducing a "natural", albeit equally adverse, global
warming.

This clarifies well enough how poisoned by neoluddite mentality the subject is.

Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 21:06:52 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:06:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080418055849.GB14312@Isis> <4808BCFB.8070203@insightbb.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>

At 04:40 PM 4/18/2008 -0400, Rick Strongitharm wrote:

>Bottom line, what will get uploaded?  Will it retain individuality, 
>subjectivity, that continuity?

You really, really, really do need to go back as far as the archives 
extend and track the longer-than-decade extrope discussion of this 
topic. You're in the position of someone going to a high level 
physics list and asking, "Hey, I hear there's a notion around that 
stuff is made of tiny `atoms'. What's that all about?"

Damien Broderick 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 22:30:39 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:30:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804181319n141e76c6u92c08246e0d5b5e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20804181319n141e76c6u92c08246e0d5b5e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804181730.39874.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 18 April 2008, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> I meant working, clickable hyperlinks. Sure, one can cut-and-past a
> textual URL in one's Web browser... But don't they disturb one's
> reading, especially in the even of deep, very long URLs?

Re: long URLs. You can always do something like:
http://tinyurl.com/
http://sturly.com/

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 22:33:36 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:33:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804181733.36570.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 18 April 2008, Lee Corbin wrote:
> What is your opinion of Thomas Szasz's claims, e.g., "The Myth
> of Mental Illness"?

One of the interesting aspects of mental illness is that we start 
getting into computational physics, brains, mind, personality, and all 
sorts of interesting mixes of problems. From my understanding of 
Szasz's book, this was not a cybernetic approach to the mind. The 
cybernetic approach simply means that *anything going on in the brain* 
is in fact occuring and can ultimately be altered whether by 
mechanical, electrical, or some other intervening methodologies. So 
what would it matter whether or not an 'illness' (read: problem) is 
social in nature? Or biochemical? Something has to change, no?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 22:37:44 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:37:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804181737.44243.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 18 April 2008, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> I think there are four entirely different issues involved in Global
> Warming from a H+ point of view:

Excellent idea.

> i) does it exist in the first place?

1.1) Does our personal enhancement depend on the climate remaining? What 
about the feasability of space habitats, colonization, getting off the 
rock?

> ii) assuming that i) is true, is it anthropogenic

This is just assigning responsibility/blame. This is bogus -- either 
way, something has to give. Whether or not it is our problem. 
(Remember, we are assuming that 1 is true and that it *is* our problem 
since ultimately it does influence us.)

> iii) assuming that i) is true, and irrespective of whether ii) is
> true or not, is it an entirely negative development?

Is it negative with respect to transhuman technologies?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 22:39:28 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:39:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 18 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> You really, really, really do need to go back as far as the archives
> extend and track the longer-than-decade extrope discussion of this
> topic. You're in the position of someone going to a high level
> physics list and asking, "Hey, I hear there's a notion around that
> stuff is made of tiny `atoms'. What's that all about?"

Damien, we could package the archive and offer it as a book. If the 
respective authors refuse to participate, we can simply try to 
represent their arguments to the best of our abilities. I think it's 
also *two* decades, but there are no archives from that first decade, 
so.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 23:16:31 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:16:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony, or Miscommunication?
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com><013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <018301c8a1aa$6d811ef0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

I followed all of Damien's explanation (and admission that he'd
mistaken Alex's meaning), except for one:

> Alex failed to rebut anything I said, which is why I took his
> comments the way I did (evidently in error). He *asserted* that
> anthropogenic global climate change was non-existent, without making
> any rebuttal of Lee's citation from a climate scientist. He expressed
> vehement *disagreement*--

And I think that perhaps Damien also writes (though probably
this was from the posted article, an "angle-bracket" convention
I was not aware of (should I be?)).

> <Where is the consensus? I can't see it. I must have missed the end
> of the debate, I think it must have ended with all dissenters being
> shot, thus argument settled. Shameful derailing of the scientific
> process and a damning indictment of the state of our media driven
> scientifically illiterate society. How can you defeat such ignorance
> and blatant fraud? Show me the facts, not the opinions. >
>
> --without any attempt (other than a reference to past fluctuations)
> to show that this is incorrect:
> ...
>
> Calling "I think it must have ended with all dissenters being shot" a
> *rebuttal* is the same class of error made by the media when people
> are said to have "refuted" a charge against them when all they've
> done is *denied* it.

Is that because I was misusing the word?  I thought it meant merely
saying something contrary.  But I see on the web

a.. The introduction of contradicting or opposing evidence.
juryduty.nashville.gov/portal/page/portal/juryDuty/glossary/

a.. The introduction of contradicting or opposing evidence showing that what witnesses said occurred is not true, the stage of a 
trial at which such evidence may be introduced.
www.headinjury.com/lawglossary_r-z.htm


So now one must not use "refute" for "rebut", and must not
use "rebut" (as did I) for... for what?

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 23:34:04 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:34:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com><038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com><2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com><009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

John Grigg writes

> Lee Corbin wrote:
> 
> > If they've been created to do work (i.e. for some purpose), then
> > in my view they belong to their creators. And for me, it's especially
> > unproblematical if aren't suffering, but are rather enjoying it. (And
> > why shouldn't they enjoy it? Even now, drugs are cheap, and
> > there shouldn't be a premium at all on a very pleasant existence
> > in the future for created entities.)
> 
> Oh, my gosh!  I can't believe you said these things! : (  I feel like
> you are advocating the "enlightened" enslaving of genetically
> engineered sentients!  A biological sentient conditioned by drugs
> and/or genetic engineering to enjoy his/her/its slavery (oh, but
> they will never use this word...) is still a slave.  "Oh, brave new world!"      

By "enslave", of course, you don't mean my seizing an already
extant creature who is a member of society---but your reaction
makes me wonder if you or not. This would be *just* about
entities that would never live *but* for my efforts to create them.

Don't forget software you write on equipment that you bought
and paid for, and own. Are we to have a "sentience police" that
runs blueware on your machine just to keep checking up on you
to make sure your programs aren't suffering, and that you won't
allow them to terminate?

The principle is the same. If I concoct some tissue in my own lab
that turns out to be sentient, well, then, IMO it's mine and I can
do with it what I please. Who are you and the goons to come 
into my place and stop me?  Why, that would be almost as bad
as "the authorities" smashing down doors to take children away
from their parents because the authorities don't approve of the
way the children are being medicated by their parents (except,
unfortunately, we already do that).

Respect for individual *rights*, e.g. *my* legal rights, and respect
for the laws of private property have, I say, got us a long way. 
I utterly reject the idea of you, the legislature, and the police
supervising what I do in my own house or in my own laboratory. 

(I do not want to argue people's well-intentioned laws against 
animal cruelty, or any parallel laws against "sentient cruelty".
One thing at a time. After I win this debate, we can go after
those things.)

Meanwhile, what if I devise a machine that can create and 
then obliterate a sentient some twenty thousand times per
second.  If I leave it running a few days, you think that makes
me history's greatest mass murderer? It all gets ridiculous
(unless you look at things exactly like I do).

Lee

P.S.

Oh---okay, sorry for not putting a smiley face after I wrote
that last sentence. To me---I'm being funny. What sort of
person would really *mean* that all views but his are 
ridiculous?   :-)   But experience has proven people can't
see that sort of humor, at least not coming from me.  :-)

P.P.S.  Oh, and that P.S. and this do not contain any
irony. If I live to be a hundred, I won't be able to match
the double and triple levels of the stuff that Damien
throws about with such mastery.


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 23:38:24 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:38:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20804181331l74c703a7kfc11e7787da20744@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a501c8a1ad$ef839010$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stefano writes

> Lee  wrote:
>>  The only important differences between my car and a
>>  slave is (a) the slave regrets its situation (b) the slave
>>  is conscious. If I create sub-programs that don't
>>  regret my control and who are conscious, then they're
>>  more like employees or collaborators. I will not call
>>  that slavery, unless you can persuade me that my car
>>  is properly speaking a slave.
> 
> Mmhhh. The problems with slavery do not stop with how it affects the
> slaves, but rather have also to do on how it affects the "masters'"
> economy, culture and civilisation in the medium and long term.

That's certainly true!  Slavery was perhaps the biggest cause 
of the fall of the Roman Empire. 

But in the *future* the "slaves" if there be any, will be like our
slaves today who drink gasoline and get buried in auto junkyards.
The problem, of course, is when you can create entities that
do tasks for you and which will terminate when the tasks are
done. It will be very nice of you to make them very cheerful,
or, as Keith says, to love what they do.

Lee



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 23:49:05 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:49:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>

At 05:39 PM 4/18/2008 -0500, Bryan wrote:

>we could package the archive and offer it as a book. If the
>respective authors refuse to participate, we can simply try to
>represent their arguments to the best of our abilities.

To some extent that's exactly what my book THE SPIKE is.

>  I think it's
>also *two* decades, but there are no archives from that first decade,
>so.

More than two decades, but yes, a lot of the early stuff is generally 
unavailable. Even in 1996, when I wrote the first draft of THE SPIKE, 
I depended on the personal archives of several generous extropes such 
as John Clark (and got permission from everyone I cited).

Damien Broderick  



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 00:26:55 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:26:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, my gosh!  I can't believe you said these things! : (  I feel like you
> are advocating the "enlightened" enslaving of genetically engineered
> sentients!  A biological sentient conditioned by drugs and/or genetic
> engineering to enjoy his/her/its slavery (oh, but they will never use this
> word...) is still a slave.  "Oh, brave new world!"

### The condition of slavery may be said to exist when the legitimate
self-ownership interest of a person is infringed on by violent means.
A self-ownership interest is created when a sentient process develops
a desire to control its own goal-oriented behavior. If a sentient
process never develops a desire to control its destiny, it does not
own itself, and therefore it is legitimate for another process to take
control. If no self-ownership interest is infringed on, slavery cannot
exist. Are you following the reasoning? Since my laptop does not (to
the best of my knowledge) have a desire to control its destiny, it's
perfectly fine for me to use it as I see fit, no matter how smart the
laptop is (say it's a 2029 model, last upgrade before the singularity,
with 1000 petaflops and 64 000 cores). The same applies to biological
constructs.

Rafal


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 00:48:07 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:48:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 18 April 2008, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> ### The condition of slavery may be said to exist when the legitimate
> self-ownership interest of a person is infringed on by violent means.
> A self-ownership interest is created when a sentient process develops
> a desire to control its own goal-oriented behavior. If a sentient

What is ownership, and prove to me that it is a property of the 
universe, except in socio-stuff.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 00:43:30 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:43:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804181733.36570.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01d201c8a1b6$785e60b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Bryan writes

> Lee wrote
>
>> What is your opinion of Thomas Szasz's claims, e.g., "The Myth
>> of Mental Illness"?
>
> One of the interesting aspects of mental illness is that we start
> getting into computational physics, brains, mind, personality, and all
> sorts of interesting mixes of problems. From my understanding of
> Szasz's book, this was not a cybernetic approach to the mind.

No, it certainly was not. So to reply to your comment, I had
to go to the very nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz .

> The  cybernetic approach simply means that *anything going
> on in the brain*  is in fact occurring and can ultimately be altered
> whether by mechanical, electrical, or some other intervening
> methodologies.

Why call it a "cybernetic approach"?   In fact, isn't *cybernetics* passe?
I would certainly say that---and virtually everyone here will agree---
if we substituted "materialistic" or "scientific" for your "cybernetic
in that sentence, then that would be correct.

> So what would it matter whether or not an 'illness' (read: problem) is
> social in nature? Or biochemical? Something has to change, no?

Amazingly, Szasz himself answers your question in that wikipedia article.

"The struggle for definition is veritably the struggle for life itself. In the typical Western two men fight desperately for the 
possession of a gun that has been thrown to the ground: whoever reaches the weapon first shoots and lives; his adversary is shot and 
dies. In ordinary life, the struggle is not for guns but for words; whoever first defines the situation is the victor; his 
adversary, the victim. For example, in the family, husband and wife, mother and child do not get along; who defines whom as 
troublesome or mentally sick?...[the one] who first seizes the word imposes reality on the other; [the one] who defines thus 
dominates and lives; and [the one] who is defined is subjugated and may be killed."


NOW AS to whether, as you say, "something has to change", there
are obstacles, both good and bad. The bad obstacles are those folks
who won't consider materialistic intervention in people's brains (even
though the patients are all in favor), a form of anti-tech or anti-science
probably more extreme than anything in the Bush administration.

Among the good obstacles is, of course, the principle people must be
consulted before they're acted upon, whether for "their own good or not".

Yet here is an interesting problem: we know that about 4% of people
growing up are sociopaths. If a vaccine were developed that, when
administered at a young age warded off this condition, ought we to
allow our elected officials to either tamper with the water supply
(as they do with fluoridation), or subject all children to an injection?

My morning personality would say "yes, do it", my afternoon personality
would say "no", and when it gets late enough at night, I'm at "hell yes".

Lee 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 00:45:28 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:45:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com><200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Shouldn't we just give some quick google links to 
articles that we think would be good for the newbie?
It would just take a minute.  I sort of sympathise
with his position.

I'll bet if he'd asked for links, there wouldn't be a
problem.

Lee


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 00:53:12 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:53:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804181753h22ddfa7bx49841e4a668bbe74@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>  >  Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
>  >  things along the lines of counting the political opposition
>  >  as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
>  >  number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
>  >  that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for spouting his
>  >  "nonsense".
>
>  Mental illness is not a social construct any more than hepatitis or
>  renal failure is a social construct.
>
### Aside from schizophrenia, bipolar and a couple others, there is a
whole huge gray area, somewhere between barking mad and re-born Xian,
that is very much subject to a lot of social construction of ever new
nosological entities. Is "oppositional personality disorder" a mental
illness or just bad manners? Reasonable people could differ here.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 01:06:20 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:06:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804181806y3716ab99t5ce3ab2b0aee90de@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I think there are four entirely different issues involved in Global
>  Warming from a H+ point of view:
>  i) does it exist in the first place?

### Yes.

>  ii) assuming that i) is true, is it anthropogenic?

### Probably at least to some extent, but almost certainly not only
anthropogenic.

-------------------

>  iii) assuming that i) is true, and irrespective of whether ii) is true
>  or not, is it an entirely negative development?

### No! Global warming is good for you! Seriously, as in, I am not
being sarcastic. It is predicted to increase agricultural productivity
by perhaps as much as 40%, based on the Stanford research on grassland
changes exposed to extra carbon dioxide. Even if parts of polar caps
melted (quite unlikely, since they didn't melt 6000 years ago when the
temperatures were higher than projected by IPCC), this still would not
erase the gains to the economy.

---------------------------

>  iv) assuming that i and iii) is true, and irrespective of wheher ii)
>  is true or not, should be avoided at any price, or (in other terms)
>  what price would be acceptable to avoid or limit it?

### No price is acceptable. You don't pay to prevent something that's
actually good for you.

------------------------
>
>  Point ii) and iv) are important, because interestingly it appears from
>  polls that many people who would be ready to accept important
>  sacrifices to limit an anthropogenic global warming would not be
>  willing to accept a fraction of them to embark in geo-engineering
>  projects aimed at reducing a "natural", albeit equally adverse, global
>  warming.
>
>  This clarifies well enough how poisoned by neoluddite mentality the subject is.

### You bet!

In this vein, it's amazing how low "Scientific American" fell. From a
neat pop-sci magazine, now down to a commie rag, publishing some
English teacher's tirades against economists:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-economist-has-no-clothes

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 01:16:40 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:16:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804181816vf962ce0j30f794658426e8d8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>
>  The principle is the same. If I concoct some tissue in my own lab
>  that turns out to be sentient, well, then, IMO it's mine and I can
>  do with it what I please. Who are you and the goons to come
>  into my place and stop me?

### Here we still disagree, Lee, after all these years :)

If your concoction emails me that you didn't ask it for permission to
use it and it resents your infringement on its self-ownership, I might
consider offering it protection services, assuming it were willing to
pay for the goons.

We'll see who's goons are tougher.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 01:22:22 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:22:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804181822g2ed15851n48fc504261e6eaf0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday 18 April 2008, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>  > ### The condition of slavery may be said to exist when the legitimate
>  > self-ownership interest of a person is infringed on by violent means.
>  > A self-ownership interest is created when a sentient process develops
>  > a desire to control its own goal-oriented behavior. If a sentient
>
>  What is ownership, and prove to me that it is a property of the
>  universe, except in socio-stuff.

### Ownership is a relation between a person, or persons (henceforth
referred to as owner), and entities, including intangible and
immaterial ones (henceforth termed property), such that the owner has
the right to exclude other persons from accessing, possessing, using
or otherwise controlling said property. Yes, it is socio-stuff,
therefore a feature of the universe, like quarks and blue cheese.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 01:31:33 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:31:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <01d201c8a1b6$785e60b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804181733.36570.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<01d201c8a1b6$785e60b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804181831o659b6f10v62adafda4a89883c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  Yet here is an interesting problem: we know that about 4% of people
>  growing up are sociopaths. If a vaccine were developed that, when
>  administered at a young age warded off this condition, ought we to
>  allow our elected officials to either tamper with the water supply
>  (as they do with fluoridation), or subject all children to an injection?

### There is a good libertarian solution: Denial of association to
non-vaccinated persons. "You haven't been vaccinated, sir, I have to
ask you to leave the property in three...two...one....<50,000 volt
discharge assures prompt exit>". If repeated commonly enough, it would
assure universal vaccination without a single government pen pusher
signing a warrant.

Or else, we send them all to Coventry....

Rafal


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 02:17:17 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:17:17 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804181917k2b039ce4n4d61cf4c3428a481@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> What is your opinion of Thomas Szasz's claims, e.g., "The Myth
>  of Mental Illness"?

It's crap.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 02:39:52 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:39:52 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <200804181733.36570.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804181733.36570.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804181939o2884db1fke5c6117aa5cfdc6f@mail.gmail.com>

On 19/04/2008, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:

> One of the interesting aspects of mental illness is that we start
>  getting into computational physics, brains, mind, personality, and all
>  sorts of interesting mixes of problems. From my understanding of
>  Szasz's book, this was not a cybernetic approach to the mind. The
>  cybernetic approach simply means that *anything going on in the brain*
>  is in fact occuring and can ultimately be altered whether by
>  mechanical, electrical, or some other intervening methodologies. So
>  what would it matter whether or not an 'illness' (read: problem) is
>  social in nature? Or biochemical? Something has to change, no?

Yes, everything psychological must have a basis in the physical. But
there is still a sense in which the brain could be said to be
suffering from disease. Otherwise, you could argue that there is no
such thing as disease at all, since putatively diseased organs are
just exhibiting a slightly different set of biochemical reactions.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 03:43:55 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:43:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804181939o2884db1fke5c6117aa5cfdc6f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804181733.36570.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804181939o2884db1fke5c6117aa5cfdc6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804182243.55269.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 18 April 2008, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> Yes, everything psychological must have a basis in the physical. But
> there is still a sense in which the brain could be said to be
> suffering from disease. Otherwise, you could argue that there is no
> such thing as disease at all, since putatively diseased organs are
> just exhibiting a slightly different set of biochemical reactions.

Yep, that's it exactly though, there's no true 'disease', it's just a 
different set of reactions and whatever, and if you want to change 
that, you can complete the feedback circuits however you can to 
eliminate or change those statuses, right? I don't think it matters the 
physical reality of the situation. I wonder if Szaz was working off of 
a "the mind is brain + soul"-thought stuff.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 03:36:46 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:36:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net><a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com><20080418055849.GB14312@Isis>
	<4808BCFB.8070203@insightbb.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01f601c8a1cf$42bec580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Okay, so I did have to spend about three minutes to find
a *good* piece about uploading.  I never would have
found it but for Google: "extropian uploading"

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrob/pub/extro_faq.html

That also has some page includes some items from the old "Extropy Institute" website 
What is an extropian? 
How does "extropy" relate to "entropy"? 
What do "transhuman" and "posthuman" mean? 
4. What does "Best do it so!" stand for? 
How does "evolution" distinguish traditional political orientations from extropianism? 
What books describe the "basics" of extropian thought? 
14. What is uploading? 
15. What is nanotechnology? When will it be available? 
16. What is agoric computing? 
17. What is E-Prime? 
18. What do extropians think of cryonics/biostasis? 
24. What is the Singularity? 
25. When will the Singularity occur? 

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 03:42:38 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:42:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804181816vf962ce0j30f794658426e8d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01fa01c8a1cf$f6b6b390$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rafal finally goes astray, as he says, after all these years.

>>  The principle is the same. If I concoct some tissue in my own lab
>>  that turns out to be sentient, well, then, IMO it's mine and I can
>>  do with it what I please. Who are you and the goons to come
>>  into my place and stop me?
> 
> ### Here we still disagree, Lee, after all these years :)
> 
> If your concoction emails me that you didn't ask it for permission to
> use it and it resents your infringement on its self-ownership, I might
> consider offering it protection services, assuming it were willing to
> pay for the goons.

You mean you'd believe it over me?  Obviously the tissue
I chanced upon is out to do some extorting, and I said no
or ticked it off. 

Indeed, once children get wind of the way things really are,
it will be "take me to the zoo or I'll tell the teacher you abused
me. What does "abused" mean?  Or I'll call Mir. Rafal across
the street who is bigger than you."

> We'll see who's goons are tougher.

:-)   Now I am sure we will reach an, er, accomodation. But
thanks for the heads up. I had forgotten that once we get rid
of the state monopoly on force, it'll be each of us and his
protection agency for himself.

Lee

P.S.  Wait I think we did have the same disagreement years
ago about the unutterable <I-word> before the roof caved
in on our discussion.



From moulton at moulton.com  Sat Apr 19 03:24:36 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:24:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1208575476.19224.1040.camel@hayek>


On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 18:49 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote:
> At 05:39 PM 4/18/2008 -0500, Bryan wrote:
> >  I think it's
> >also *two* decades, but there are no archives from that first decade,
> >so.
> 
> More than two decades, but yes, a lot of the early stuff is generally 
> unavailable. Even in 1996, when I wrote the first draft of THE SPIKE, 
> I depended on the personal archives of several generous extropes such 
> as John Clark (and got permission from everyone I cited).

This reminds me of thread just about 10 days ago about history.  Perhaps
if a complete archive was available historical studies would be more
complete and accurate.  In addition hard copy items such as the
proceedings of the first Extropy conference would be useful for
historical study.

I understand there are difficulties.  One is the logistics of recovering
the electronic records for various backups and servers.  Another is
organizing them in a reasonably accessible format.  These difficulties
might be overcome in part by hiring part time students to work on the
manual portions of the task.  Also we might have issues of some people
not wanting to have their words as part of an archive and others may
have no problem with the words being available but not them attributed
to themselves.  My memory is that this question of archiving was
discussed in the early days however my memory is fuzzy enough on this
that I would not hazard a guess as to the resolution.  These are real
issues but I am not convinced that they are not insurmountable.   The
more time that passes the more difficult the tasks will be.  So if
people are interested in the early history of Extropian, transhumanist
and related history the time to start is yesterday.

Fred

> Damien Broderick  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 03:50:56 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:50:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c8a1d0$aaef2d10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Bryan writes

> On Friday 18 April 2008, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> 
>> ### The condition of slavery may be said to exist when the legitimate
>> self-ownership interest of a person is infringed on by violent means.
>> A self-ownership interest is created when a sentient process develops
>> a desire to control its own goal-oriented behavior. If a sentient
> 
> What is ownership, and prove to me that it is a property of the 
> universe, except in socio-stuff.

What? You'd be as quick as anyone to call the police if someone
started taking *your* stuff. You'd probably end up saying that
you owned it.  And I'd love for the judge to say "What is ownership,
and prove to me that it is a property of the  universe, except in
socio-stuff."

Now *democracy* is closer to being human---er, or (as I think you
mean the term) "socio-stuff" than *ownership*.  It's evolutionary
origins are clear, and it makes total sense that it would develop
among social animals. Okay, if it is socio-stuff, so what?

Besides "property" is a rather all inclusive term philosphy-wise.
Suppose an anthropologist visits one of Robert Sheckley's planets,
and each person there has a cousin, father, mother, etc., best friend,
wife, brother-in-law, etc., a priest, rabbi, and confessor, etc., and
also a torgrendu. But it takes years for any of them to figure out
what a torgrendu is, and then he mysteriously dies.  Well, clearly
it's *something* to them, and no doubt has a consistent pattern
in the brains of the aliens, and so has a consistent definition that
makes sense, and so is a real property of their society and their
mentalities.

Lee



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 05:01:41 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:01:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <01fd01c8a1d0$aaef2d10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<01fd01c8a1d0$aaef2d10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804190001.42345.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 18 April 2008, Lee Corbin wrote:
> What? You'd be as quick as anyone to call the police if someone
> started taking *your* stuff. You'd probably end up saying that
> you owned it. ?And I'd love for the judge to say "What is ownership,
> and prove to me that it is a property of the ?universe, except in
> socio-stuff."

Sorry, if somebody 'steals my stuff', that's my own damn fault for not 
realizing the nature of digital information and the technical 
capacities for uploading it across the massive information network on 
the surface of the planet. But yes, I would say I owned it and so on, 
mostly because that's social engineering to get other people to act in 
accordance with a strategy.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 19 05:33:32 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:33:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804181806y3716ab99t5ce3ab2b0aee90de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804190534.m3J5Xsd2001190@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> From: Rafal Smigrodzki
...
> 
> ### No! Global warming is good for you! Seriously, as in, I 
> am not being sarcastic. It is predicted to increase 
> agricultural productivity by perhaps as much as 40%, based on 
> the Stanford research on grassland changes exposed to extra 
> carbon dioxide... Rafal


Rafal, surely you realize that global warming could lead to higher
unemployment in gravediggers, coffin makers and other workers in the
funerary industry.

spike




 



From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr 19 05:35:14 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:35:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
 or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6FF6470B922D-770-2643@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com>



That's more like it. Even better when given the H+ bias, after all that is why we are here. I would like to say that the 

issue should be discussed without agendas, but in the H+ context it is impossible to avoid. but anyway, on with the 

discussion.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefano Vaj stefano.vaj at gmail.com

>On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>? Alex failed to rebut anything I said, which is why I took his
>>? comments the way I did (evidently in error). He *asserted* that
>>? anthropogenic global climate change was non-existent, without making
>>? any rebuttal of Lee's citation from a climate scientist. He expressed
>>? vehement *disagreement*--

?
A quick response to Damien's above comments. Rebut is probably the wrong choice of word as Lee agreed and again apologies for the rant. I find myself doing it more frequently as the modern media driven popular society seems to fray around edges. In regard to my views on anthropogenic causation and vehement disagreement there of, my responses below to Stefano's points should somewhat clarify my position.


> I think there are four entirely different issues involved in Global
>Warming from a H+ point of view:
>i) does it exist in the first place?


There does seem to be an underlying general trend of climatic warming on a short geological timescale. However thus 

far this amounts to little more than a blip in the grand scheme of things, but when selectively overlayed with the 

time span of homo sapiens and in particular against the modern world. Any increase is obviously statistically magnified. 

Greater magnification is then applied by taking the temperature increase in a context of 'since records began'.


>ii) assuming that i) is true, is it anthropogenic?


I have no doubt that any chemical emissions or technology must have an effect on the environment. Even natural 

human processes have an effect. The question is to what extent? 
Taking into account the delayed effects of causation and climate reaction and the vast impacts of natural events such as volcanoes, Hydrate out gassing, solar activity etc. I think that any contribution mankind has had on global climate change has been minimal. More so that any changes currently in effect are most likely resultant of past events, possibly prior to the industrial revolution.


>iii) assuming that i) is true, and irrespective of whether ii) is true
>or not, is it an entirely negative development?


No, Unless we are talking about an imminent run away green house effect where Earth will resemble Venus in a few 

short years/decades. Which personally I think is impossible due to the natural feedback systems. 
On the whole, I think that a warmer climate cannot be seem as anything except good for the biology of the planet. At 

all points in the past where the Earth has had a warmer climate, the diversity and extent of biology has far exceeded 

current levels. The world did not end then and mankind did pretty well and survived all the warming periods in our past.
>From an alterative energy point of view, warming will be positive. More solar, more wind, more rain. So ironically global warming will in some way help free us from our dependence on fossil fuels. From a societal 

point of view, It may well involve some panic, turmoil and restructuring in many countries. but this will be over time, not tomorrow. 
In the times of Roman occupation, grapes were successfully grown in the far north of England as the climate was far 

warmer then. I am sure that any current climate warming will mainly offer new prospects such as this, where crops 

which were impossible to grow in colder climes will again be able to grow.
My only real concern is for further desertification of arid regions. I feel the issue of cost effective desalination and 

supply of clean water to such areas needs to be addressed. This is far from impossible, just look at Vegas or the 

greenery of arid Dubai. We have no excuse for a lack of water on a planet covered by it.
Regardless of whether the effects of GW are negative of not, Human kind has no alternative but to adapt to whatever the planet throws at us, or indeed whatever space throws at us (but that is a different concern and to me a far more worrying one). We adapt and survive, we have always done so. If the sea levels rise and water laps around your ankles, you move. If the water dries up the river you use to irrigate your crops, you run a pipeline. Nothing is permanent and to try to impose the status quo on mother nature is to doom ourselves to extinction. We just need to deal with it. Its what we do.


>iv) assuming that i and iii) is true, and irrespective of wheher ii)
>is true or not, should be avoided at any price, or (in other terms)
>what price would be acceptable to avoid or limit it? E.g., would it be
>fine to sacrifice more human lives, tech progress, life quality than
>would be spared by accepting its assumed adverse consequences, were it
>necessary to reduce it?


I really have to stretch the imagination to assume that iii) is true. That being: global warming is an entirely negative thing. It may well have negative short term effects on humanity as a whole. But even then the end result would be a increase in processes and technology to mitigate such effects. These should give us a far more resilient and efficient world with greater commerce and interaction. So getting back to the point, the acceptable cost is only whatever we need to spend to deal with any changes which actually happen. Costs attributed to avoidance seem a complete waste and a subversion of funds which are needed elsewhere for far more important things. However costs of generally cleaning up our act and reducing proven harmful emissions such as hydrocarbon particulates, which may subsequently also reduce greenhouse gases. Are worth while for there own validity. Likewise for any moves away from fossil fuels.


>Point ii) and iv) are important, because interestingly it appears from
>polls that many people who would be ready to accept important
>sacrifices to limit an anthropogenic global warming would not be
>willing to accept a fraction of them to embark in geo-engineering
>projects aimed at reducing a "natural", albeit equally adverse, global
>warming.
>


lol, not surprised. People still think that Natural is good regardless of any damage and should not be toyed with. Ironic really.


>This clarifies well enough how poisoned by neoluddite mentality the subject is.
>
>Stefano Vaj


Indeed it does.
Alex

________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr 19 05:45:35 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:45:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <01d201c8a1b6$785e60b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>	<015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<200804181733.36570.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<01d201c8a1b6$785e60b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <8CA6FF7B8F89A45-770-2652@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com>









-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Corbin lcorbin at rawbw.com




>snip:
>Yet here is an interesting problem: we know that about 4% of people
>growing up are sociopaths. If a vaccine were developed that, when
>administered at a young age warded off this condition, ought we to
>allow our elected officials to either tamper with the water supply
>(as they do with fluoridation), or subject all children to an injection?
>
>My morning personality would say "yes, do it", my afternoon personality
>would say "no", and when it gets late enough at night, I'm at "hell yes".
>
>Lee 




I think that such an approach would inevitably result in you and I getting an uncontrollable urge to buy the latest Nike's
and watch soap operas just after our morning drink of water ;o) perhaps accompanied by an unexplicable warm fuzzy feeling
for the Bush administration?

LOL

Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr 19 06:04:26 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:04:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804181753h22ddfa7bx49841e4a668bbe74@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804181753h22ddfa7bx49841e4a668bbe74@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6FFA5B5C703D-770-2672@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com>


What is wrong with Bipolar? I have been happily/sadly bipolar for many years ;o)
?"oppositional personality disorder" seems to me to be a product of either over diagnosis of normal childhood behaviour or possibly a symptom of other frustrations, possibly even due to high intelligence and alomost certainly due to social environment. To label such psychological traits as a disorder just smacks of enforced conformity to perceived societal norms. Norms which are more than likely or even provably way off what is actually in the normal spectrum. It would be fair to say that nearly all of the people revered by society have in fact fallen into the fringe regions of this normal?psychological spectrum.?Some have been far outside it.?Do we really want to label and medicate such minds? granted we do need to identify them,? should this identification be the limit of what we do?
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com



On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>  >  Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
>  >  things along the lines of counting the political opposition
>  >  as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
>  >  number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
>  >  that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for spouting his
>  >  "nonsense".
>
>  Mental illness is not a social construct any more than hepatitis or
>  renal failure is a social construct.
>
### Aside from schizophrenia, bipolar and a couple others, there is a
whole huge gray area, somewhere between barking mad and re-born Xian,
that is very much subject to a lot of social construction of ever new
nosological entities. Is "oppositional personality disorder" a mental
illness or just bad manners? Reasonable people could differ here.

Rafal
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
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From sparkle_robot at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 19 05:39:48 2008
From: sparkle_robot at yahoo.com (Anne Corwin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <200804182243.55269.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9413.92392.qm@web56505.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 06:40:42 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:40:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804130433hb6759bfg40ae3329029890bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130433hb6759bfg40ae3329029890bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7031AB28-9984-46B0-A34F-23009C5CA4B2@mac.com>


On Apr 13, 2008, at 4:33 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> On 13/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>> On 12/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
>>>> a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
>>>> government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
>>>> longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other
>>>> reason the U.S. has a much longer history.
>>>
>>> Have a look at this article:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
>>
>> I have a suspicion that the index varies inversely with the  
>> percentage
>> of a country's wealth that is owned or controlled by the government  
>> and
>> how much government permission and favor must be sought.   If there  
>> is
>> nothing much in government hands to buy, bribe, enter into conspiracy
>> with government officials then corruption should drop rapidly.
>> Governments put the Mafia to shame and are often more ill-tempered.
>
> That's not how the list reads. Most of the countries near the top are
> high taxing, high regulation.

Then the benefits are at a high real cost.

> And I suspect that private enterprise
> corruption and inefficiency is directly proportional to government
> corruption and inefficiency.

Government officials are somehow less prone to corruption?

> Do you think the Danish Government is
> more likely to rip you off than a private firm (the only sort) in
> Somalia, the libertarian paradise?
>

Somalia is nobody's paradise and I refuse to converse would someone  
who would make such denigrating remarks.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 06:58:55 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:58:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EDB25B77-646D-4C9F-B548-FF09C3856BD9@mac.com>


On Apr 13, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> On 13/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>>
>>> I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on  
>>> it,
>>>
>>
>> When the alternative is to rely on taking money from people by force
>> then yes, I do want to rely on private funding.  However, calling it
>> charity is quite mistaken.  Private persons, groups, corporations  
>> and so
>> on are more than capable of understanding the vast importance of
>> scientific research.   If you don't have government taking much of  
>> their
>> wealth by force then I suspect you would see a great deal more  
>> private
>> funding.
>
> More private funding for private profit. Where's the profit in, say,
> particle physics? There will probably always be some funding for basic
> science but it will regarded in the same way as funding orphanages in
> third world countries.

What is the good generally of science?  Why would you believe that  
people can only acknowledge that good and fund it by having a  
government be involved?   If the government truly is acting on the  
will of the people then why  wouldn't people care about and give money  
to the same causes without filtering it through a government or having  
a government force them to do so?  Conversely if the people do not  
care about these things in what sense is the government acting on  
their behalf rather than forcing them to support things they in fact  
do not care that much about?

The profit in scientific research is the tremendous expansion of  
opportunity that comes from what it discovers.   This is not lost on  
foundations, corporations and other groups of people.


>
>
>>> and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it?
>>
>> Is it a success of people donating their time and money to what they
>> believe is important rather than having their time and money looted  
>> by
>> politicians to support whatever the politicians think is important?
>> Why is there this assumption that the politicians are any more wise  
>> or
>> benevolent or capable than the people who earned the money the
>> politicians took in taxation?   Isn't the evidence in the US of the
>> government taking 40 - 50% of all wealth and still running deficits  
>> so
>> large we are in hock for decades into the future quite clear that
>> government is not the solution?
>
> Much of the money collected is wasted. It would be better if this
> money were left in the hands of the taxpayers or spent on worthwhile
> projects that private enterprise won't touch. The taxpayers are the
> customers and shareholders and they have to make decisions as to what
> to do with their money. If the decision is a bad one then the country
> will falter and other countries which tax higher, lower or better will
> prevail.
>

If no people would voluntarily fund a program then it should not be  
done.   To do it any way and force people to support it is partial  
slavery.     The "taxpayers" are not customers or shareholders as  
those are voluntary roles and one can opt out if not receiving  
sufficient value for one's investment.   The "taxpayer" could most  
efficiently make a decision what to do with money than never left his  
hand.   No person is inherently justified in deciding how to spend the  
money of others unless they voluntarily give it to him to manage or in  
support of some cause.  We the people have almost no say whatsoever in  
how most of the money taken from us by force is spent.



>> Receiving money that was voluntarily paid for your efforts is more
>> degrading than receiving money coerced by threat of imprisonment?   
>> Come
>> again?
>
> If my house burns down my insurance company will pay to build me a
> replacement. This is despite the fact that I may only have paid a few
> hundred dollars in premiums: the deal was that if it burns down, they
> will pay, and I don't feel guilty about taking the money from all the
> other policyholders whose houses don't burn down.

That was a totally voluntary contract and there is no reason to feel  
guilty as the insurance company considered the odds carefully before  
writing your policy.

> Similarly, the deal
> in the country where I live is that if I earn income I will pay a
> proportion of it to the Government,

I did not volunteer for any such "deal".   If it is not a voluntary  
contract it has no validity.

> and in return I will receive
> certain services if I need them.

Some services I need the government has monopolized.  This is hardly a  
manner of voluntary agreement either.  But most of the "services" that  
government provides are not only not wanted by me but are extremely  
pernicious to much that I value.


> I know that this is the deal so I
> should feel neither guilty if I get back more than I contribute nor
> aggrieved if I contribute more than I get back.
>

What "deal"?  You are saying that is just the way things are but not  
that it is the way things should be at all.

> You will doubtless point out that I am free not to insure my house but
> that isn't always an option. If I live in an apartment building I will
> be forced to pay my share for insurance and other maintenance costs,
> simply because the majority of the other owners have voted that way.

Not so as they don't generally vote on except in certain housing  
associations.  Generally the owner determines costs and a reasonable  
profit and divvies it up among tenants.

>
> If I don't pay I may be taken to court, and if I still refuse to pay I
> may be imprisoned, or my assets forcibly seized.

False.  You would simply be asked to leave that association / rental  
situation and if you did not do so in a timely manner you would be  
tossed out on the street with your possessions.   You most certainly  
would not be imprisoned.

> My only recourse is
> to sell the apartment and move elsewhere. But it might be very
> difficult for me to do that for any number of reasons, and in any case
> if I move elsewhere I might encounter the same fees and regulations:
> which is exactly the same problem I have if I consider moving to
> another country because I don't like the laws and taxation.
>

It is not the same problem as pointed out above.   Governments have a  
monopoly on the use of physical force.  It is for that reason that  
powers need to be severely limited.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 07:03:09 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:03:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804150404j78cf606cmdc28f2ef5d460c2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804130744o260c18aaw1946f2cf51fa814@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804150404j78cf606cmdc28f2ef5d460c2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E3346A3B-6F41-4BED-B7FE-D2408AAC4AB5@mac.com>


On Apr 15, 2008, at 4:04 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 4:44 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>> I think that while war is a very ugly thing, scientific spinoffs from
>> military research have been hugely beneficial to society in general.
>
> Whatever one may think of First and Second and Cold War, they have
> corresponded to periods of accelerated technological progress.

We actually have no way of knowing how much progress would have been  
made without these long drawn out expensive exercises replete with a  
lot of major moral compromise and expansion of Big Brother.    The  
argument that military adventurism and heavy military spending is  
justified because it leads to technological progress is decidedly post  
hoc.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 07:05:53 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:05:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c89eed$b5e37680$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00cf01c89eed$b5e37680$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <A394C06B-60CB-47F0-9422-E5D4BB598E8D@mac.com>


On Apr 15, 2008, at 4:41 AM, Lee Corbin wrote:

> Olga and Rafal both make good points.
>
> But I've been meaning to address something else for a while.   
> Earlier this
> year someone here opined that the main reason that slavery was
> ended in the west was that it was becoming economically unviable.

It was in fact becoming increasingly nonviable particularly as the  
industrial revolution expanded.

>
>
> In fact, it was a moral revolution among people mainly in Brittain,
> and to a lesser extent in the U.S.

That is an assertion that requires some proof.   It was almost  
certainly not the case that the Civil War was fought to end slavery.

> At no trifling cost, the British
> people supported their navy in the early 1800s patroling up and
> down the African coast. Slavery was ended in the West because
> those people (yessss, I'll dare say it, the most culturally advanced
> in the world at the time), reviled it.
>
> And a bit later, it could be said that the Abolitionists in the U.S.
> caused the War Between the States.
>

Not with any real correctness.

- samantha



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 07:20:43 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:20:43 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <7031AB28-9984-46B0-A34F-23009C5CA4B2@mac.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130433hb6759bfg40ae3329029890bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<7031AB28-9984-46B0-A34F-23009C5CA4B2@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804190020u3472f62cj4613bec7d67890d4@mail.gmail.com>

On 19/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

>  > And I suspect that private enterprise
>  > corruption and inefficiency is directly proportional to government
>  > corruption and inefficiency.
>
> Government officials are somehow less prone to corruption?

No, my point was that corruption and inefficiency in private
enterprise (businesses ripping off customers, employees ripping off
customers and employers) is probably proportional to corruption and
inefficiency in government in a given country.

>  > Do you think the Danish Government is
>  > more likely to rip you off than a private firm (the only sort) in
>  > Somalia, the libertarian paradise?
>
> Somalia is nobody's paradise and I refuse to converse would someone
>  who would make such denigrating remarks.

This article from the Ludwig von Mises Institute website ("Advancing
the scholarship of liberty in the tradition of the Austrian School")
would disagree with you:

http://www.mises.org/story/2066





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 07:25:29 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:25:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <71C97BB9-7215-4D8E-8BE0-E462F7C03675@mac.com>


On Apr 15, 2008, at 7:26 AM, Kevin Freels wrote:

>
>
> Olga Bourlin wrote:
>>
>> From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
>> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Olga Bourlin  
>>>> <fauxever at sprynet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> (in answer to a previous post of Lee Corbin's)  Your remark about
>>>> "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take into  
>>>> account de
>>>> jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the   
>>>> 1960s, and
>>>> many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those   
>>>> institutions
>>>> are interrelated - and not all dead.
>>>>
>>
>>
>
> Of course the question we are really trying to answer is whether a  
> totally free market will always be superior to a market that is  
> managed and manipulated by government. If we were just talking about  
> the past, then it would be obvious that government regulation is  
> necessary.

Not really.

> Without labor laws, people were working for pennies - or even as  
> slaves.

False.  Without physical compulsion people will not agree to sell  
their labor on such terms.  Slavery requires physical compulsion by  
definition.

> Without the FDA, companies were free to market any kind of snake oil  
> they could.

They can't without utterly ruining their reputation and losing their  
market share.  Big money is not made by fly-by-night criminal  
operators who defraud and harm people.

> The free market didn't build the interstate highway system we all  
> enjoy and I doubt it would have been built without government  
> intervention.

Supposition.  Many of our roads and bridges were built privately.


> And without compulsory education there is no telling where we would  
> be at the moment but I am sure evolution would be taught even less.

Before compulsory education and the public school system as we know it  
in the US America was often remarked on as a tremendously literate  
society.   Now we have a literacy rate below 80%.   So I am not  
impressed by this argument.


> Most of the large bloated bureaucracies were created in response to  
> the shortcomings of the free market.

No.  They were created with supposed shortcomings as an excuse.  Often  
the "shortcomings" were actually the result of previous government  
meddling including creating government sanctioned monopolies.   The  
victors (government largely) write the history.

>
>
> But we're not talking about the past. We're talking about the future.

We are talking about both.

> In the past, if someone was using a cheap process to create a toy  
> which left lead in the paint that could harm children, there was no  
> way to quickly prove it and notify people.

Yes we can monitor better but not necessarily prove increasingly  
complex points more cheaply or quickly.

> If an employer wanted to pay pennies the people couldn't hop on the  
> internet and find a job in another city that paid twice as much  
> because they wanted better people.

Before the internet word did get out of employers and areas offering  
better opportunities.   Freedom to choose, principally property rights  
to ones own person and labor, allowed and will allow taking advantage  
of better opportunities.


> The free flow of information offsets most - if not all - of the  
> benefits of the bureaucratic systems that are in place.

The free flow of information was produced mostly by private citizens  
and companies with a vision of what could be.  It was largely the work  
of very dedicated hackers and visionaries with the freedom to act and  
to profit.  It largely happened because it moved fast enough to not  
get regulated to death in infancy.  All the bureaucracy in the world  
would not have achieved it.

> A free market can only work when there is a free and rapid flow of  
> information.

A free market can only work in an environment of freedom.  How rapid  
the information flows is a function of technological means and is not  
determinative of whether free markets work, at least better than  
relatively non-free ones, or not.

> Consumer Reports is a service I subscribe to and it is much more  
> effective than the consumer product safety commission could ever  
> hope to be and I'm sure you can figure out all the reasons why.

Yes.  A free association of people.
>

> My point is that it's probably a waste of time debating the free  
> market of the past as there are significant differences today.

Those who do not understand the lessons of history are doomed to  
repeat them.

> What we should be focusing on is how we can utilize these  
> technologies today to create a more efficient system than exists now.

Efficiency per se is a non-goal.   We could build an extremely  
efficient and utterly oppressive police state.   We seem to be headed  
in that direction.

- samantha


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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 07:38:05 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:38:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <5CB595A0-5E06-411F-B319-40951E443A34@mac.com>


On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:33 AM, Lee Corbin wrote:

>
> The only important differences between my car and a
> slave is (a) the slave regrets its situation (b) the slave
> is conscious. If I create sub-programs that don't
> regret my control and who are conscious, then they're
> more like employees or collaborators. I will not call
> that slavery, unless you can persuade me that my car
> is properly speaking a slave.

The important difference is that your car is not an intelligent self  
aware autonomous entity.  If you create programs that are then you  
have  created entities that arguably have as much right to pursue  
their own agenda as you do to pursue yours.

>
>
>> I am reasonably confident that outright slavery is not
>> a common thing among our highly-developed
>> galactic neighbors.
>
> Yes!  For the simple reason that generating the regret
> and pining-away typical of slaves is not efficient.

So given the technology to sufficiently hack human minds back in the  
age of slavery it would not be slavery to breed and use suitably  
hacked humans?   If that is part of your premise then it would be  
perfectly fine if someone hacked you to have no resentment of having  
your life devoted to their needs.   Furthermore, given the technology,  
it would be perfectly acceptable for you to hack as many humans as you  
wish to work as non-regretting slaves on your projects.


>
>
>> On the other hand, other nastiness may be viable: Killing off most
>> people after a group develops human-equivalent AI. Developing
>> mind-control techniques to make willing slaves (see Vinge's "A
>> Deepness in the Sky", an excellent book). The eternal world-spanning
>> AI-assisted dictatorship.
>
> I agree, just that the "Focused" in VV's Deepness were an advance,
> but obviously hardly the pinnacle of advanced surveillance techniques
> or advanced AI.
>
> There is utterly no reason to worry about slavery in a high-tech  
> future.

Seems to me your argument gives plenty of reason to worry whether you  
stop calling it "slavery" or not.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 07:44:30 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:44:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <E2F4E531-CF64-482A-AB67-071B40AA2E9C@mac.com>


On Apr 17, 2008, at 12:48 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 08:56 AM 4/17/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm
>>
>> Summary:
>>
>> * Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last  
>> year.
>
> Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over! Oh, wait,  
> it goes on:
>
>> But this year's temperatures would still be way above the average -
>> and we would soon exceed the record year of 1998 because of global
>> warming induced by greenhouse gases....
>> Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any
>> particular year is larger than these small temperature differences.
>> What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.
>

Actually there have been years warmer than 1998 in the last 100  
years.   If we examine the many climate studies the Kyoto Protocol  
grew out of the median expected increase is about 1.2 degree C over  
the next 100 years.  Hardly something to get that excited about since  
within recorded history there were long periods of much warmer  
temperature than that.   The Kyoto Protocol if implemented fully would  
make a projected (by its proponents) difference of around  .1 degree  
over that period.

- samantha
> Damien Broderick
> [There we were this morning, tearing along the freeway at 80, then we
> went on a feeder and slowed for a red light. For the last 20 seconds,
> our speed dropped well below 80. In fact, it went to zero! A new
> trend! No-ideological-bullshit-conclusion: traveling from now on will
> be really, really slow]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 07:52:17 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:52:17 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <EDB25B77-646D-4C9F-B548-FF09C3856BD9@mac.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDB25B77-646D-4C9F-B548-FF09C3856BD9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804190052o74cf4c63q5ef05229cfd673e@mail.gmail.com>

On 19/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> What is the good generally of science?  Why would you believe that
>  people can only acknowledge that good and fund it by having a
>  government be involved?   If the government truly is acting on the
>  will of the people then why  wouldn't people care about and give money
>  to the same causes without filtering it through a government or having
>  a government force them to do so?  Conversely if the people do not
>  care about these things in what sense is the government acting on
>  their behalf rather than forcing them to support things they in fact
>  do not care that much about?
>
>  The profit in scientific research is the tremendous expansion of
>  opportunity that comes from what it discovers.   This is not lost on
>  foundations, corporations and other groups of people.

Let's say that there is a project that may be undertaken in a country
of 1 million people that will cost $100 million and will provide $200
of utility, on average, to each citizen. The nature of the project is
such that the utility is spread across the entire population, i.e. if
a wealthy individual decides to fund the whole thing himself he will
still probably only get $200 of utility for his investment. Such a
project will likely be funded through taxation, but not through the
free market, except as an act of charity.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 07:54:04 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:54:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <200804172230.41166.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<200804172230.41166.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33B960CE-EBFC-4E1D-82EA-49C8F08B9420@mac.com>


On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:30 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:

> On Thursday 17 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
>> Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over!
>
> Rant [not specifically re: above]:
>
> It is irresponsible for anybody to view news about global warming
> without specifically coming up with a plan of action to deal with the
> situation,

It is irresponsible to not first and foremost come to a reasonably  
well-supported understanding of whether there is a "situation" that  
needs to be dealt with, what the situation is, and how critical it  
is.  Being stampeded is not conducive to optimal decision making.

> whether you want to reduce the global average temperature
> dx

Nope, not when we may be headed for another little ice age.

> , or if you want to promote space habitats for humans,

Yes, but for other reasons.

> or if you want
> to do bioconservation, whatever. Just linking to news and promoting
> hype isn't really helping the situation: if it's really all that
> serious, then hell, start generating ideas, it's your env too. :)

Global warming doesn't appear to me to be real enough to be a serious  
threat.   The tremendous global warming hype is a credible threat  
though.   Soaring energy cost and possible energy wars in the near  
future are a real threat.

- samantha




From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 07:58:27 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:58:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E35E351F-E1CA-410B-9563-53093151FDE4@mac.com>


On Apr 18, 2008, at 6:07 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> On 18/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
>> things along the lines of counting the political opposition
>> as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
>> number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
>> that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for spouting his
>> "nonsense".
>
> Mental illness is not a social construct any more than hepatitis or
> renal failure is a social construct.
>

What is judged to be "mental illness"  can have very real social  
construct components.  For instance, women who actually admitted to  
sexual desires and enjoying sex were considered "mentally ill" not  
that long ago.  Homosexuality was listed as a mental illness much more  
recently.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 08:09:02 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:09:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20804181344w67c077f2t1a35504bba1c00cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87AE8EDB-57C2-4501-92C3-94606C86C045@mac.com>


On Apr 18, 2008, at 1:44 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com 
> > wrote:
>> Alex failed to rebut anything I said, which is why I took his
>> comments the way I did (evidently in error). He *asserted* that
>> anthropogenic global climate change was non-existent, without making
>> any rebuttal of Lee's citation from a climate scientist. He expressed
>> vehement *disagreement*--
>
> I think there are four entirely different issues involved in Global
> Warming from a H+ point of view:
> i) does it exist in the first place?

And if so, to what degree?

>
> ii) assuming that i) is true, is it anthropogenic?

If so, how much of it?

>
> iii) assuming that i) is true, and irrespective of whether ii) is true
> or not, is it an entirely negative development?

Depends on the amount of warming we are talking about.

>
> iv) assuming that i and iii) is true, and irrespective of wheher ii)
> is true or not, should be avoided at any price, or (in other terms)
> what price would be acceptable to avoid or limit it?

To put it another way, how much warming is acceptable or how much  
price for how much decrease in dangerous levels of warming.   Where is  
the cost - benefit analysis?

> E.g., would it be
> fine to sacrifice more human lives, tech progress, life quality than
> would be spared by accepting its assumed adverse consequences, were it
> necessary to reduce it?

I think we can find ways to reduce it, if needed, without seriously  
impacting any of those things.  I am suspicious of GW advocates in  
part because their supposed cures are unnecessarily harsh and  
moralistic and sold based on absolutist premises.

>
>
> Point ii) and iv) are important, because interestingly it appears from
> polls that many people who would be ready to accept important
> sacrifices to limit an anthropogenic global warming would not be
> willing to accept a fraction of them to embark in geo-engineering
> projects aimed at reducing a "natural", albeit equally adverse, global
> warming.
>

That's odd.  If the warming is truly sufficiently harmful it should  
motivate means to combat it regardless of source.  Unless much of the  
energy of the movement is really more about anti-science and progress  
or anti-development like much of environmentalism unfortunately  
became.   I don't know why the message that we are terrible sinners  
and destroyers of Nature and Nature's Way is so easy to sell.

> This clarifies well enough how poisoned by neoluddite mentality the  
> subject is.
>

Yep, it seems so.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 08:15:42 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:15:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <576449D7-E282-4C09-ACCC-BF9710663E57@mac.com>


On Apr 18, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:

> On Friday 18 April 2008, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>> ### The condition of slavery may be said to exist when the legitimate
>> self-ownership interest of a person is infringed on by violent means.
>> A self-ownership interest is created when a sentient process develops
>> a desire to control its own goal-oriented behavior. If a sentient
>
> What is ownership, and prove to me that it is a property of the
> universe, except in socio-stuff.
>

In ethics we are concerned with a much more narrow domain than  
"property of the universe".  Ownership is one way of expressing that  
an intelligent agent  needs the freedom to make decisions based on its  
intelligence and act on them (ownership of its mind and actuators/ 
body) if it is going to be maximally effective towards its goals.    
All other types of property rights grow out of this core right /  
need / essential for maximal well-being.   An extension comes from how  
groups of such entities may most peacefully and productively inter- 
relate which is the field of ethics and thus politics.

- samantha




From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr 19 09:12:05 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:12:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804190020u3472f62cj4613bec7d67890d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130433hb6759bfg40ae3329029890bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<7031AB28-9984-46B0-A34F-23009C5CA4B2@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190020u3472f62cj4613bec7d67890d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FA91ED8-301D-42DC-83AE-B530AD7BAF12@mac.com>


On Apr 19, 2008, at 12:20 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

>>> Do you think the Danish Government is
>>> more likely to rip you off than a private firm (the only sort) in
>>> Somalia, the libertarian paradise?
>>
>> Somalia is nobody's paradise and I refuse to converse would someone
>> who would make such denigrating remarks.
>
> This article from the Ludwig von Mises Institute website ("Advancing
> the scholarship of liberty in the tradition of the Austrian School")
> would disagree with you:
>
> http://www.mises.org/story/2066

Whoa.  I stand corrected.  It looks like an interesting place.   Since  
the Danish government would tax me very hard I would bet that the  
amount loss to taxes would greatly exceed the amount any private firms  
in Somalia could rip me off for.   And the private firms could be  
taken to court where most governments generally cannot be successfully  
sued.

- samantha



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Apr 19 10:07:08 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:07:08 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] property
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1208583348.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <250258.1909.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Bryan wrote
>What is ownership, and prove to me that it is a
>property of the 
>universe, except in socio-stuff.
>
>- Bryan

Well, a great many animals show territorial behaviour.
Checking our favourite resource, wikipedia: the
article on ownership is badly short on references, so
I won't quote it. However,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_behaviour

states many prosimians display territorial behaviour.
So, ownership would appear to be a property that our
branch of the evolutionary tree is prone to. I don't
know whether Bryan is using "socio-stuff" to apply to
ALL behavioural & social studies, and in doing so
disregarding large chunks of biology, or whether he is
referring to learned patterns of behaviour that some
call "culture" and some call "memes". Judging by
primate behaviour, I think ownership is too deeply
hardwired into our brain to be considered learned. 

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 10:43:10 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:43:10 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <E35E351F-E1CA-410B-9563-53093151FDE4@mac.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<E35E351F-E1CA-410B-9563-53093151FDE4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804190343j6af7f087ucb2322535de70bcd@mail.gmail.com>

On 19/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> What is judged to be "mental illness"  can have very real social
>  construct components.  For instance, women who actually admitted to
>  sexual desires and enjoying sex were considered "mentally ill" not
>  that long ago.  Homosexuality was listed as a mental illness much more
>  recently.

If these had been called illnesses of the endocrine system, does that
mean diabetes is also a social construct?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 10:46:12 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:46:12 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <5CB595A0-5E06-411F-B319-40951E443A34@mac.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<5CB595A0-5E06-411F-B319-40951E443A34@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>

On 19/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> The important difference is that your car is not an intelligent self
>  aware autonomous entity.  If you create programs that are then you
>  have  created entities that arguably have as much right to pursue
>  their own agenda as you do to pursue yours.

But what if you create an intelligent self-aware autonomous entity
that loves serving you?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 11:23:00 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:23:00 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <8FA91ED8-301D-42DC-83AE-B530AD7BAF12@mac.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130433hb6759bfg40ae3329029890bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<7031AB28-9984-46B0-A34F-23009C5CA4B2@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190020u3472f62cj4613bec7d67890d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FA91ED8-301D-42DC-83AE-B530AD7BAF12@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804190423j33cb6831i34f54c446853f27d@mail.gmail.com>

On 19/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Whoa.  I stand corrected.  It looks like an interesting place.   Since
>  the Danish government would tax me very hard I would bet that the
>  amount loss to taxes would greatly exceed the amount any private firms
>  in Somalia could rip me off for.   And the private firms could be
>  taken to court where most governments generally cannot be successfully
>  sued.

I don't see how you could allow courts without allowing everything
else that you don't like about government. In a true free enterprise
system, you would rely on the fact that firms which rip off or murder
their customers will get less business and will be subject to
reprisal. That's what keeps drug dealers honest.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Apr 19 11:00:11 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:00:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] mental illness & social constructs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1208583348.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <316305.4186.qm@web27013.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

To quote Stathis (a mental health professional if I
remember correctly), Lee and Rafal:

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Stathis Papaioannou
 <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>  >  Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases?
At least
>  >  things along the lines of counting the political
opposition
>  >  as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent
today. A huge
>  >  number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were
willing to affirm
>  >  that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for
spouting his
>  >  "nonsense".
>
>  Mental illness is not a social construct any more
than hepatitis or
>  renal failure is a social construct.
>
>### Aside from schizophrenia, bipolar and a couple
>others, there is a whole huge gray area, somewhere
>between barking mad and re-born Xian, that is very
>much subject to a lot of social construction of ever
>new nosological entities. Is "oppositional
>personality disorder" a mental illness or just bad
>manners?Reasonable people could differ here.
>
>Rafal

This whole discussion centres around what is mental
illness, and how much of this is social rather than
biological. With advances in neuroscience, we've been
able to discover more about changes in brain chemistry
and architecture that underlie many mental illnesses.
Biological studies have indicated that some conditions
can be shown in other species eg the "anorexia in
young female pigs" study.
 However, the threshold of when to treat, and when to
say someone's just a bit different, is something that
is blurry, changing and socially defined. UK studies
on the incidence of mental health show approximately
35% of the population will suffer from depression that
fits the diagnostic criteria for clinical depression.
However, there are arguments on how these figures are
reached at. In our current age of the "prozac nation"
with many people on antidepressants who in earlier
times would have been untreated, and many children
being on medication of attention deficit disorder/
hyperactiivty/ related syndromes, are we
overmedicalising human behaviour or are at the dawn of
a golden age of alleviating human suffering?
  The top diagnostic manuals (the american DSM and the
WHO guidelines) change their diagnostic criteria based
on research and debate, and there are often some
controversial inclusions. After all, the 1952 DSM
included homosexuality as a mental disorder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology

and areas like multiple personality disorder are the
topics of fevered debate.

As people have been quoting Thomas Szabo, opponents of
psychiatry will point to things like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_psychiatry
 to show where psychiatry has been abused.

I suppose for us as transhumanists, the big question
has to be how much difference in mental function we
can tolerate, and what neurological interventions
(whether chemical or physical) are desirable. I've
just read Greg Egan's "Distress", and before our
journalist hero investigates the Theory of Everything,
he has an interview with a "voluntary autist" -
someone who wants to have surgery to become more like
a savant-type autist, and is fighting a legal battle.
Also in the book some people are intersex in
interesting ways - some alter their external sexual
appearance, some alter their "brain sex", some do
both. Perhaps we should persuade David E Kelley to
write a futuristic TV show based on transhuman
pioneers and their legal battles to alter themselves.

Tom

PS If those pesky fifteenth century French had only
listened to their middle-aged military veterans
instead of a teenage girl with voices in her head, I
could be sipping a beer in the English city of
Orleans. Some mental differences help people inspire
others, and hearing voices doesn't necessarily stop
you functioning in society.


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 11:55:16 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:55:16 +1000
Subject: [ExI] mental illness & social construct
In-Reply-To: <316305.4186.qm@web27013.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.42.1208583348.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<316305.4186.qm@web27013.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804190455k44c67ab3p301f457594945d57@mail.gmail.com>

On 19/04/2008, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>  This whole discussion centres around what is mental
>  illness, and how much of this is social rather than
>  biological. With advances in neuroscience, we've been
>  able to discover more about changes in brain chemistry
>  and architecture that underlie many mental illnesses.
>  Biological studies have indicated that some conditions
>  can be shown in other species eg the "anorexia in
>  young female pigs" study.
>   However, the threshold of when to treat, and when to
>  say someone's just a bit different, is something that
>  is blurry, changing and socially defined. UK studies
>  on the incidence of mental health show approximately
>  35% of the population will suffer from depression that
>  fits the diagnostic criteria for clinical depression.
>  However, there are arguments on how these figures are
>  reached at. In our current age of the "prozac nation"
>  with many people on antidepressants who in earlier
>  times would have been untreated, and many children
>  being on medication of attention deficit disorder/
>  hyperactiivty/ related syndromes, are we
>  overmedicalising human behaviour or are at the dawn of
>  a golden age of alleviating human suffering?
>   The top diagnostic manuals (the american DSM and the
>  WHO guidelines) change their diagnostic criteria based
>  on research and debate, and there are often some
>  controversial inclusions. After all, the 1952 DSM
>  included homosexuality as a mental disorder:
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology

Yes, but mental illness is not fundamentally different in this regard
from physical illness. Some people are attracted to amputees or even
seek elective amputation of their own limbs. They would argue that
seeing amputation as abnormal or undesirable is a social construct,
and in a sense it is. However, amputation *itself* is not a social
construct. Either the limb is there or it isn't.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 13:02:35 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:02:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <71C97BB9-7215-4D8E-8BE0-E462F7C03675@mac.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
	<71C97BB9-7215-4D8E-8BE0-E462F7C03675@mac.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804190602g2839a552l4ccf2d0c801708ef@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Efficiency per se is a non-goal.   We could build an extremely efficient
> and utterly oppressive police state.   We seem to be headed in that
> direction.
>

Except that I should not be so sure about its prospective efficiency... :-)

Stefano Vaj
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 14:17:15 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:17:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
References: <00cf01c89eed$b5e37680$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<A394C06B-60CB-47F0-9422-E5D4BB598E8D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <025301c8a228$4fcee5d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Samantha inquires

> On Apr 15, 2008, at 4:41 AM, Lee Corbin wrote:
>
>> Olga and Rafal both make good points.
>>
>> But I've been meaning to address something else
>> for a while. Earlier this year someone here opined
>> that the main reason that slavery was ended in the
>> west was that it was becoming economically unviable.
>
> It was in fact becoming increasingly nonviable particularly
> as the industrial revolution expanded.

Were there any signs that in the U.S. slavery was
being replaced by share-cropping in the south?
If it wasn't competitive, why wasn't it slowly being
replaced?  Or was it?  I guess you'll have to provide
some references too.

>> In fact, it was a moral revolution among people mainly in Brittain,
>> and to a lesser extent in the U.S.
>
> That is an assertion that requires some proof.   It was almost  certainly not the case that the Civil War was fought to end
> slavery.

First, let's look at the timeline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

which, though it shows the amazing advancement all around the
world, lists the $$$$ efforts of the British:

   1802 Denmark abolish slave trade in Danish colonies
   1802 Slavery re-introduced in France[2]
   1803 Lower Canada abolishes slavery
   1804 Haiti abolishes slavery[3]
   1807 Abolition of the Slave Trade Act: slave trading
            abolished in British Empire. Captains fined ?100
            per slave transported.
* 1807 British begin patrols of African coast to arrest
            slaving vessels. West Africa Squadron (Royal Navy)
            established to suppress slave trading; by 1865,
            nearly 150,000 people freed by anti-slavery operations[8]
   1807 Abolition in Prussia, Germany The Stein-Hardenberg Reforms.
   1808 United States -- importation of slaves into the US
            prohibited after Jan. 1.[9]
   1811 Slave trading made a felony in the British Empire
            punishable by transportation for British subjects
            and Foreigners.
   1811 Spain abolishes slavery at home and in all colonies
            except Cuba,[2] Puerto Rico, and Santo Domingo
   1814 Dutch outlaw slave trade
* 1815 British pay Portuguese ?750,000 (several hundred
            million dollars in current values) to cease their trade[10]
   1815 Congress of Vienna. 8 Victorious powers declared
            their opposition to slavery
* 1817 Spain paid ?400,000 by British to cease trade to
            Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Santo Domingo[10]

Look at the 1807, 1815, and 1817 particulars. I have
also read, but do not have handy, how expensive it
was for the slave patroling for decade after decade
after decade by the British Navy, e.g.,

1845 36 British Navy ships are assigned to the Anti-Slavery
         Squadron, making it one of the largest fleets in the world.

>> And a bit later, it could be said that the Abolitionists
>> in the U.S. caused the War Between the States.
>
> Not with any real correctness.

What?  Please provide some argument.

It is *clear* and was clear the whole time from 1787 to 1861
that *this* was the big dividing issue between north and south.
Yes, of course there were other causes, e.g., immediate causes
in the 1850s (for example, Henry Clay finally died).  But they
were all related to the slavery issue.

The north and south would *never* have gone to war without
the slavery issue. The south would *never* have wanted
succession to that degree without the slavery issue.

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 14:21:57 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:21:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<5CB595A0-5E06-411F-B319-40951E443A34@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804190721g5f7d82fdy9449f1ab64c4733e@mail.gmail.com>

 Stathis wrote:
But what if you create an intelligent self-aware autonomous entity
that loves serving you?
>>>


Why, it has been "programmed" to love serving you and so I (on behalf of the
Dept. of Sentient Entity Civil Rights) am going to have to "reprogram" it to
recognize what a big manipulative jerk you are!

John  ; )
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 14:30:04 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:30:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804190343j6af7f087ucb2322535de70bcd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<E35E351F-E1CA-410B-9563-53093151FDE4@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190343j6af7f087ucb2322535de70bcd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804190730kde25eesa41f67ab2f4495b7@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/19/08, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> > What is judged to be "mental illness"  can have very real social
> >  construct components.  For instance, women who actually admitted to
> >  sexual desires and enjoying sex were considered "mentally ill" not
> >  that long ago.  Homosexuality was listed as a mental illness much more
> >  recently.
>
> If these had been called illnesses of the endocrine system, does that
> mean diabetes is also a social construct?

### Stathis, you seem to blur the distinction between "the fact of the
matter" (a set of behaviors, with more or less clear biological
underpinnings) and our opinion of it - whether it is called an
illness. Of course, there is a certain "Ding-an-Sich" to every disease
but whether we actually make it into a recognized medical problem is
especially in psychiatry a social issue. Yes, there is a biological
dimension, and a set of behaviors to e.g. homosexuality, but choosing
to call it a disease is culturally conditioned to a much larger extent
than our attitudes towards e.g. a broken leg.

Maybe there is a "medicine envy" among psychiatrists, like the
"physics envy" among biologists - wanting to say that every condition
they treat is like an elemental particle of the mind, rather than a
fuzzy concept.

Opinions and disparate values have a much greater impact on psychiatry
than on cardiology. Almost everybody will readily agree that heart
disease hurts, and then you die but our opinions on matters of the
mind are, legitimately, much more varied.

Rafal


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 14:26:35 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:26:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<5CB595A0-5E06-411F-B319-40951E443A34@mac.com>
Message-ID: <026201c8a229$b7fa9270$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Samantha writes

> So given the technology to sufficiently hack human minds

Not only would it be slavery, but it would be deeply
immoral to seize any free person and hack his mind.

But vastly more important, it is and should remain
illegal.

> back in the age of slavery it would not be slavery to breed
> and use suitably hacked humans?

If I used some knowingly and volutarily contributed DNA
to create some human slaves from scratch, and bred them
as you suggest, it would be deeply immoral unless they
also were altered from regular human to love their work
and their lives.

But since this thread *is* about the future, just translate
that to uploads. Whatever moral problems I would have
with someone doing that, it shouldn't be illegal, as you've
surely read in other posts by now.

> If that is part of your premise then it would be  
> perfectly fine if someone hacked you to have no resentment of having  
> your life devoted to their needs.   Furthermore, given the technology,  
> it would be perfectly acceptable for you to hack as many humans as you  
> wish to work as non-regretting slaves on your projects.

You just throw stuff out like this without examining what people
have really said.  I *never* suggested doing that. I won't comment
on posts any further when I come to a point where you start doing
this.

Lee



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 14:34:33 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:34:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Critarchy
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804190734n1e24ebb1j76cff2f9808f513@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/19/08, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I don't see how you could allow courts without allowing everything
> else that you don't like about government.

### Too little time to address this very interesting issue at length
(I am on call and consults are piling up) but I would suggest you
investigate "critarchy". You will find some references on the web.

Rafal


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 14:37:41 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:37:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <025301c8a228$4fcee5d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00cf01c89eed$b5e37680$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<A394C06B-60CB-47F0-9422-E5D4BB598E8D@mac.com>
	<025301c8a228$4fcee5d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804190737l5d88aee5ncd5c7b22737ba103@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
The north and south would *never* have gone to war without
the slavery issue. The south would *never* have wanted
succession to that degree without the slavery issue.
>>>

And many a young and poor Confederate foot soldier quite correctly called
the conflict a "a rich man's war!"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3880/is_/ai_n8950274

John
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 14:46:44 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:46:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804190746pc5ed63bxb0310164b1eaa386@mail.gmail.com>

 Message: 16
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:06:20 -0400
From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Use of Irony,        or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global
       Temperatures to Decrease


>  iii) assuming that i) is true, and irrespective of whether ii) is true
>  or not, is it an entirely negative development?

### No! Global warming is good for you! Seriously, as in, I am not
being sarcastic. It is predicted to increase agricultural productivity
by perhaps as much as 40%, based on the Stanford research on grassland
changes exposed to extra carbon dioxide. Even if parts of polar caps
melted (quite unlikely, since they didn't melt 6000 years ago when the
temperatures were higher than projected by IPCC), this still would not
erase the gains to the economy.

I COMPLETELY CONCUR.  U OF MINNESOTA HAS A COMPLEX COMBINATION OF GRASSES
AND FORBES THAT
REQUIRE LITTLE  INPUT IN COMPARISON WITH 300 BUSHEL CORN WHICH IN ENERGY
TERMS THIS EMULATES.

SPEAKING AS A CANADIAN , WE INHABIT SOMETHING LIKE ABOUT A 350 MILE WIDE
SLICE ALONG OUR SOUTH BOUNDARY.  A TEMPERATE ARCTIC  OR EVEN ONE WITH BIO
CAPACITY OF A COOL RAINFOREST WOULD ENABLE US TO SUSTAIN THE SAME POPULATION
AS CHINA INSTEAD OF ABOUT 33 MILLION. OR ABOUT A 40 FOLD
INCREASE.

I BELIEVE THAT FOR THE BIOECONOMY TO BE OPTIMIZED THAT THE TERRAFORMING OF
THE CLIMATE AND
CAPTURE OF MOST OF THE AVAILABLE CARBON AND WATER INTO BIOPRODUCTS OF SOME
DESCRIPTION IS A FUNDAMENTAL REQUIREMENT.

THE KEY ISSUE IS THAT PEOPLE WANT TO NOT EXERT ANY EFFORT TO ADAPT TO
CHANGE.

ADAPTATION IS A DYNAMIC INDUSTRIAL PROCESS AND WOULD NO DOUBT REQUIRE ENERGY
WASTED ON WARS AND OTHER SOCIAL  DIFFERENCES TO  BECOME MORE  PROFITABLY
FOCUSED.

YES THE SHORT TERM AND BY THAT I MEAN PERHAPS  SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS
DISRUPTION OF WATER RESOURCES MAY REQUIRE  A CONCERTED GLOBAL EFFORT TO
LIVE WITH, BUT RESTORING THE PLANET TO THE  DYNAMIC ENVIRONMENT THAT
SUPPORTED GLOBAL WIIDE JUNGLES AND DINOSAURS  IS WORTH CONSIDERATION.

I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF THE RESOURCE EXPENDITURE WHICH IS CALLED THE GLOBAL
SECURITY/WAR OR SUCH  NAME BY OTHERS.  HOWEVER, I WOULD BE SOMEWHAT
SATISFIED IF THE TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENTS IN SATELLITE SENSING, ROBOTICS ,
COMMUNICATION AND BATTLEFIELD MEDICINE RESEARCH WOULD BE VERY QUICKLY
BROUGHT BACK INTO THE CIVILIAN SECTOR AND COMMERCIALIZED MUCH LIKE THE
ARPANET BECAME THE INTERNET.

BEFORE WE CONDENMN THE GLOBAL WARMING/COOLING DEBATE LETS REMEMBER THAT A
MAJOR PART OF THE POPULATION WHO COULDN'T BE BOTHERED TO THINK ABOUT THE
ENVIRONMENT NOW DOES.

NOW PERHAPS WE IN THE LIFESPAN EXTENSION FIELD CAN PLOT TO CREATE THE DEBATE
AND PREPARATORY ACTIVITY ON THE SAME GLOBAL SCALE FOR OUR AREA OF SPECIAL
INTEREST..

AFTER ALL THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO MIGHT REALLY TAKE OWNERSHIP AND RESPONSIBILITY
OF BOTH ISSUES
IS A POPULATION WHO MIGHT LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO EITHER ENJOY OR ENDURE THE
RESULTS.

PEOPLE WHO LIVE ON A 75 YEAR LIFE CYCLE WILL NEVER THINK ON A 75 MILLION
YEAR SCALE;
NO MORE THAN BACTERIA WOULD PLAN ON A CENTURY LONG SCALE.

LETS LET  MARKET ECONOMICS AND SELF INTEREST DRIVE SUPER-LONG-LIVED PEOPLE
TO MAKE LONG TERM PLANS.


MORRIS
701-240-9411
---------------------------

>  iv) assuming that i and iii) is true, and irrespective of wheher ii)
>  is true or not, should be avoided at any price, or (in other terms)
>  what price would be acceptable to avoid or limit it?

### No price is acceptable. You don't pay to prevent something that's
actually good for you.

------------------------
>
>  Point ii) and iv) are important, because interestingly it appears from
>  polls that many people who would be ready to accept important
>  sacrifices to limit an anthropogenic global warming would not be
>  willing to accept a fraction of them to embark in geo-engineering
>  projects aimed at reducing a "natural", albeit equally adverse, global
>  warming.
>
>  This clarifies well enough how poisoned by neoluddite mentality the
subject is.

### You bet!

In this vein, it's amazing how low "Scientific American" fell. From a
neat pop-sci magazine, now down to a commie rag, publishing some
English teacher's tirades against economists:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-economist-has-no-clothes

Rafal


------------------------------


-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net, arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 15:33:44 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:33:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <576449D7-E282-4C09-ACCC-BF9710663E57@mac.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<576449D7-E282-4C09-ACCC-BF9710663E57@mac.com>
Message-ID: <200804191033.44158.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 19 April 2008, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> need / essential for maximal well-being. ? An extension comes from
> how ? groups of such entities may most peacefully and productively
> inter- relate which is the field of ethics and thus politics.

That jump doesn't make sense to me. Given a group of agents that are 
interacting with each other, let them stabilize their own system and 
see how things can work, I doubt assuming one broad, overall system is 
the best of all things is a good idea. You can publish dictionaries and 
protocol handbooks, sure, but don't become the Grammar Police.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 15:37:11 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:37:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <33B960CE-EBFC-4E1D-82EA-49C8F08B9420@mac.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804172230.41166.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<33B960CE-EBFC-4E1D-82EA-49C8F08B9420@mac.com>
Message-ID: <200804191037.12037.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 19 April 2008, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:30 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:
> > It is irresponsible for anybody to view news about global warming
> > without specifically coming up with a plan of action to deal with
> > the situation,
>
> It is irresponsible to not first and foremost come to a reasonably
> well-supported understanding of whether there is a "situation" that
> needs to be dealt with, what the situation is, and how critical it
> is.  Being stampeded is not conducive to optimal decision making.

Shouldn't we be able to prepare for either case?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 15:46:00 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:46:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] property
In-Reply-To: <250258.1909.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <250258.1909.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200804191046.00948.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 19 April 2008, Tom Nowell wrote:
> call "culture" and some call "memes". Judging by
> primate behaviour, I think ownership is too deeply
> hardwired into our brain to be considered learned.

That's an interesting approach, mentioning the biological substrate of 
territorial behavior and other such ideas; in truth, it is something 
both learned and moderately 'innate' in the sense that you will flinch 
when you are poked with a hot stick, and learned in the sense that the 
Native Americans were able to go along fairly smoothly without much 
property issues [occassionally?]. I am *not* talking about communism 
here, for anybody about to pull out that word on me. Instead, perhaps 
it would be possible to modify our brains so that the concept of 
ownership can be, in some way, hacked. It is somewhat like a lie: you 
may think you 'own' something and that your ownership of it will cause 
other people to do things, but this is not necessarily true, consider 
the cases of parents stealing from children, or using the recent 
Slavery thread, a slaveowner stealing from his slaves? Oh, but that's 
right, the slaves weren't human -- the justification in the old South 
of the U.S. was that slaves were completely 'inferior' beings, that 
they were not truly human. So you get to make up reasons why somebody 
doesn't get to 'own' something ... see the cases of children being 
taken from their mothers or fathers in divorces, see the cases of homes 
being taken from so-called owners (dwellers) when an outside 'majority' 
(read: group with pitchforks/weapons/strength) can come in and enforce 
their options. Hopefully it will never come to that, but if we could 
modify our brains we might be able to remember that these things are 
not truly 'owned' and be able to prepare for those terrible sorts of 
situations.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 17:34:41 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:34:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <200804191033.44158.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804181948.07625.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<576449D7-E282-4C09-ACCC-BF9710663E57@mac.com>
	<200804191033.44158.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804191034ue30a6d5k2b30bd54837e259@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:
>  That jump doesn't make sense to me. Given a group of agents that are
>  interacting with each other, let them stabilize their own system and
>  see how things can work, I doubt assuming one broad, overall system is
>  the best of all things is a good idea. You can publish dictionaries and
>  protocol handbooks, sure, but don't become the Grammar Police.
>

Brian,
I am sorry to have to do this, but as you were disrespectful to the
Grammar Police, I had to report your message for adjudication.

Report from Grupenfuerher 473 (English Sector)

Line 2:  Use "each other" to refer to two people. Use "one another" to
refer to two or more people.
Line 3: Should be full stop after 'work', not a comma.
Line 3:  'assuming' is often confused with 'presuming'.  "Assume"
means "to accept without proof". "Presume" means "to accept before
proof is established". You might have got away with it this time, but
we have our eye on you now.
Lines 1,5: We'll let you get away with "doesn't" and "don't" this
time, but watch it!


BillK  ;)


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 19 18:33:54 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:33:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
Message-ID: <200804191900.m3JJ0dw6006057@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
A couple weeks ago I posted about getting people to sign up for observing
bees.  Coincidentally at about the same time, a local school the San
Francisco State U, came up with a better idea than mine.  They get people to
sign up as observers, then they send the volunteers a packet of sunflower
seeds for planting and watching the bees.  These hardy plants grow
everywhere in the states, need little or no special care, and provide an
excellent standard for comparison.
 
http://www.greatsunflower.org/
 
The interesting thing is how I found out about it.  My folks are visiting
this weekend from the farm in Oregon.  I mentioned my idea of a posting a
website where people would post their bee observations.  My mother told me
about the agriculture agent having made contact with the local farmers and
provided the sunflower seeds for planting on each farm.  If the farmer isn't
willing or able to post the results, the plan is to have the farmers drop
the seeds near enough to the road such that the ag agent can drive by and
make the necessary observations.
 
http://www.miamiherald.com/home/story/473898.html
 
Here's a page with a lot of graphics:
 
http://www.helpthehoneybees.com/#/home/home/
 
So my every idea was preceeded by a better idea by SFSU.
 
Ecclesiastes 1 verse 9 hath uttered: The thing that hath been, is that which
shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is
no new thing under the sun.  flower.
 
{8-[
 
I have already ordered my sunflower seeds.  {8-]
 
spike




 
 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 19:34:03 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:34:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] property
References: <250258.1909.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<200804191046.00948.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <029201c8a254$8158eb60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Bryan writes

> ...mentioning the biological substrate of territorial behavior and other
> such ideas; in truth, [is an interesting approach and] it is something 
> both learned and moderately 'innate' in the sense that you will flinch 
> when you are poked with a hot stick, and learned in the sense that the 
> Native Americans were able to go along fairly smoothly without much 
> property issues [occasionally?]. I am *not* talking about communism 
> here, for anybody about to pull out that word on me.

Yes, it's always a good idea, apparently, to ward off all the knee-jerk
responses.

> Instead, perhaps it would be possible to modify our brains so that
> the concept of ownership can be, in some way, hacked. 

Interesting idea.  First, we have to explain why *ownership* evolved
(i.e. what advantages nature found to the idea). Second, we have
to item-by-item criticize the operation of the concept, i.e. how it's
working now and its drawbacks. (That one might especially interest
you---can you do it?)  Third the case will have to be made that the
replacement works better.

Normally, traditional solutions *work* (cf. Hayek), and although
we must be open to changing one thing at a time (Hayek again),
we have to have some boldness, some enterprise. But the default
usually is that "there is a good reason for why things are as they are".

Here is a start on what property is good for. The following all
presuppose the existence of *entities* who are the actors or
persons on the world stage:

Property

1. focuses the attention of an entity on a very small subset
    of items, so that at least *someone* is really, really paying
    attention to a particular item
2. holds the "owner" responsible for the general effects of
    the thing he owns (thus my dog and my dog's behavior
    is *my* responsibility, and you can be sure that if for no
    other reason lest sanctions be applied to *me*, I will
    strive to restrict what the dog does
3. helps prevent conflicts between different entities wishing
    to use, or use up, the same stuff
4. enables price signals to work---that wholly underappreciated
    mechanism by which markets allocate goods. If something 
    isn't owned, then even if miraculously (1), (2), and (3) did
    not apply, motivation to for its transport in space where
    it would be more useful is lacking

> It [ownership or the concept of ownership] is somewhat like a lie: you 
> may think you 'own' something and that your ownership of it will cause 
> other people to do things, but this is not necessarily true, consider 
> the cases of parents stealing from children, or using the recent 
> slavery thread, a slaveowner stealing from his slaves? Oh, but that's 
> right, the slaves weren't human -- the justification in the old South 
> of the U.S. was that slaves were completely 'inferior' beings, that 
> they were not truly human. So you get to make up reasons why somebody 
> doesn't get to 'own' something... see the cases of children being 
> taken from their mothers or fathers in divorces, see the cases of homes 
> being taken from so-called owners (dwellers) when an outside 'majority' 
> (read: group with pitchforks/weapons/strength) can come in and enforce 
> their options. Hopefully it will never come to that, but if we could 
> modify our brains we might be able to remember that these things are 
> not truly 'owned' and be able to prepare for those terrible sorts of 
> situations.

Well, some of that sounds "pro-ownership" and some of it "anti". 
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Let me take one case
you mention:  the cases of children being taken from their mothers.

To me, to a far greater extent than other people, children *belong* to
their parents. But even so, what if the parents decide to go their
separate ways? What exactly are you proposing?

And this passage is especially confusing:  "see the cases of homes 
being taken from so-called owners (dwellers) when an outside
'majority' (read: group with pitchforks/weapons/strength) can
come in and enforce their option."  Well?  Isn't that exactly what
property rights are designed to discourage?  Isn't it the case that
my claim "they stole my property!" can effectively mobilize 
the good guys to stop those outsiders?

What we need are *stronger* property rights. The state should
*not* be able to come in and tell you how to medicate YOUR
child. The state should not be in the business of shutting down
generally peaceful groups minding their own business---and
in disturbingly many cases violating property rights.

If you really are wanting to "hack" the notion of property, 
then come up with your own lists like 1-4 above, or at least
assault mine.

Lee



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 20:24:40 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:24:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> Shouldn't we just give some quick google links to
>  articles that we think would be good for the newbie?
>  It would just take a minute.  I sort of sympathise
>  with his position.

As do I.  They way the archives are structured, as well as the often
flimsy connection between subject line and actual subject, makes
searching the archives problematic.

Better to create an archive index of sorts, so that newbies could,
with reasonable ease, get the info they need to bring them up to
speed.

Yo, Rick.  Pay no mind to Keith's rudeness.  He has many things to
offer, but humility isn't one of them (personally I find him a bit
full of himself).

Carry on.

Sorry, but I don't know "the" term you're looking for.

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 20:29:31 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:29:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] property
In-Reply-To: <029201c8a254$8158eb60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <250258.1909.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<200804191046.00948.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<029201c8a254$8158eb60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804191529.31702.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 19 April 2008, Lee Corbin wrote:
> > Instead, perhaps it would be possible to modify our brains so that
> > the concept of ownership can be, in some way, hacked.
>
> Interesting idea.  First, we have to explain why *ownership* evolved
> (i.e. what advantages nature found to the idea). Second, we have
> to item-by-item criticize the operation of the concept, i.e. how it's
> working now and its drawbacks. (That one might especially interest
> you---can you do it?)  Third the case will have to be made that the
> replacement works better.

As I mentioned previously, the alternative is understanding that it is 
physically possible to lose accessibility to something, plus planning 
for this, which would do wonders for many of us. Although it is always 
useful to be able to abstract those thoughts away and have other 
processes dealing with those issues while we focus on other stuff. But 
I am pretty sure even in the case where we just assume that the Good 
Guys will fight for us to have our property, we are abstracting it away 
too, right? In the case of the Good Guys it's abstracting it away to 
wetware, with lots of assumptions about their reaction and hoping that 
they will opt to react, meanwhile there are other more, ah, solid-state 
solutions that offer alternatives. Like backing up your data instead of 
fighting off evildoers with a stick in front of your UPS. 

> Property
>
> 1. focuses the attention of an entity on a very small subset
>     of items, so that at least *someone* is really, really paying
>     attention to a particular item
> 2. holds the "owner" responsible for the general effects of
>     the thing he owns (thus my dog and my dog's behavior
>     is *my* responsibility, and you can be sure that if for no
>     other reason lest sanctions be applied to *me*, I will
>     strive to restrict what the dog does
> 3. helps prevent conflicts between different entities wishing
>     to use, or use up, the same stuff

In terms of post-scarcity economics, those conflicts would only occur 
because somebody's being too lazy to go out and get some resources, so 
perhaps there is a friendly one-on-one solution, but in the case that 
there isn't, I guess you need to really wonder about how much you want 
it -- and why did you base your plans all one watering hole? And #3 
seems to be #2 - just responsibility/acecssibility stuff. In the case 
of the dog the question is 'who gets to modify the behavior and/or DNA 
of this dog?' and questions like 'who is going to fix this mess' are 
better transformed into 'who wants to help this mess?' (instead of 
assigning blame, taking action). And we know that in reality, no matetr 
if the dog is your property or not, you can (attempt to) train him. He 
might not like it, yes, but that's because of your firewall that you 
gave him ;).

> 4. enables price signals to work---that wholly underappreciated
>     mechanism by which markets allocate goods. If something
>     isn't owned, then even if miraculously (1), (2), and (3) did
>     not apply, motivation to for its transport in space where
>     it would be more useful is lacking

Price signals in post-scarcity? Hrm.

> > It [ownership or the concept of ownership] is somewhat like a lie:
> > you may think you 'own' something and that your ownership of it
> > will cause other people to do things, but this is not necessarily
> > true, consider the cases of parents stealing from children, or
> > using the recent slavery thread, a slaveowner stealing from his
> > slaves? Oh, but that's right, the slaves weren't human -- the
> > justification in the old South of the U.S. was that slaves were
> > completely 'inferior' beings, that they were not truly human. So
> > you get to make up reasons why somebody doesn't get to 'own'
> > something... see the cases of children being taken from their
> > mothers or fathers in divorces, see the cases of homes being taken
> > from so-called owners (dwellers) when an outside 'majority' (read:
> > group with pitchforks/weapons/strength) can come in and enforce
> > their options. Hopefully it will never come to that, but if we
> > could modify our brains we might be able to remember that these
> > things are not truly 'owned' and be able to prepare for those
> > terrible sorts of situations.
>
> Well, some of that sounds "pro-ownership" and some of it "anti".
> I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Let me take one case
> you mention:  the cases of children being taken from their mothers.

They might sound pro-ownership, but I am pointing out the flaws with the 
idea of assuming 'ownership' is going to hold or do anything for 
you ...

> To me, to a far greater extent than other people, children *belong*
> to their parents. But even so, what if the parents decide to go their
> separate ways? What exactly are you proposing?

I am proposing that some mothers think of their children as property, 
and that when people take children away, it is clear that an outside 
group overwrote the "property" concept in the socio-memespace, so how 
useful was it, eh? The child is gone- instead of relying on a Shield of 
Ownership, maybe mom should have taken lil' Jimmy and ran away?

> And this passage is especially confusing:  "see the cases of homes
> being taken from so-called owners (dwellers) when an outside
> 'majority' (read: group with pitchforks/weapons/strength) can
> come in and enforce their option."  Well?  Isn't that exactly what
> property rights are designed to discourage?  Isn't it the case that
> my claim "they stole my property!" can effectively mobilize
> the good guys to stop those outsiders?

You ask "isn't it?" - the answer seems to be no. Ideally, hell yeah.

> If you really are wanting to "hack" the notion of property,
> then come up with your own lists like 1-4 above, or at least
> assault mine.

'erm, first, I was using the term hack in terms of the biological 
substrate bias towards understanding things in terms of property. Not 
so much in the cultural sense .. different cultures have different 
values, some don't have property, but there might be some slight bias 
in the brain anyway, so second, am I capable of proposing alternatives 
while operating with that bias built into my brain? An interesting 
question, isn't it?

Hm. I had this email written up 20 minutes ago, but didn't send, so I 
might be lacking a huge chunk.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From godsdice at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 23:08:07 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:08:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>

I appreciate the input.  I'm not a newbie to this list.  I've followed the
relevant discussions of "self", "consciousness", uploading, etc. but my
question was still bouncing around.

Suppose a person is, bit by bit, replaced by prosthetics including his
brain, hypothetically, of course.  At some point that person would lose
memory and something that, up to that point has been absolutely subjective.

I have a number of cool hints to explore from the leads provided in the
above replies.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the contributers to this list, and
will find other places to ask questions.

Thanks.

Rick Strongitharm

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 4:24 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> > Shouldn't we just give some quick google links to
> >  articles that we think would be good for the newbie?
> >  It would just take a minute.  I sort of sympathise
> >  with his position.
>
> As do I.  They way the archives are structured, as well as the often
> flimsy connection between subject line and actual subject, makes
> searching the archives problematic.
>
> Better to create an archive index of sorts, so that newbies could,
> with reasonable ease, get the info they need to bring them up to
> speed.
>
> Yo, Rick.  Pay no mind to Keith's rudeness.  He has many things to
> offer, but humility isn't one of them (personally I find him a bit
> full of himself).
>
> Carry on.
>
> Sorry, but I don't know "the" term you're looking for.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                           Ray Charles
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 19 23:36:33 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:36:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804191836.33133.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 19 April 2008, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
> I have a tremendous amount of respect for the contributers to this
> list, and will find other places to ask questions.

Perhaps that is too severe. Maybe you would be interested in putting up 
a website or a page on a wiki somewhere (I host one, for example), so 
that it can be more a contribution than an entire rehash. :)

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 19 23:34:02 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:34:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] property
References: <250258.1909.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<200804191046.00948.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<029201c8a254$8158eb60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804191529.31702.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02b501c8a276$29a2e0c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Bryan writes

> Lee wrote:
> 
>> > Instead, perhaps it would be possible to modify our brains so
>> > that the concept of ownership can be, in some way, hacked.
>>
>> Interesting idea [but] we have to explain why *ownership* evolved
>> (i.e. what advantages nature found to the idea). Second, we have
>> to item-by-item criticize the operation of the concept, i.e. how it's
>> working now and its drawbacks...
> 
> As I mentioned previously, the alternative is understanding that it is 
> physically possible to lose accessibility to something, plus planning 
> for this, which would do wonders for many of us.

Agreed. Also, this thread perhaps continues a discussion where
*future* conditions and situations are being considered. Anyway,
by writing this sentence, it helps me remember we are talking
about both *now* and in the far *future*.

> Although it is always useful to be able to abstract those thoughts
> away and have other processes dealing with those issues while
> we focus on other stuff.

I sense that it will become very important---if it's not already---to
reaffirm that "we" can be in two places at once. In other words,
we need not cease identifying with those processes which aren't
our main focus.

> But I am pretty sure even in the case where we just assume that the Good 
> Guys will fight for us to have our property, we are abstracting it away 
> too, right?

Sorry, I don't understand your usage of "abstracting away". It would
help for the sake of clarity, especially in consecutive sentences to
amplify or find synonyms or alternate phrasing.

> In the case of the Good Guys it's abstracting it away to wetware,
> with lots of assumptions about their reaction and hoping that they
> will opt to react, meanwhile there are other more, ah, solid-state 
> solutions that offer alternatives. Like backing up your data instead
> of fighting off evildoers with a stick in front of your UPS. 

In our social history going back at least as far as our break with
the chimps 5M years ago, the "good guys" very often do respond.
It's always been in the interest of the ruling parties to maintain order. 

But I'm including more dire threats than that of just my data (though
in the far future it can be said that I'm nothing else but). If there is
a deliberate process that is eliminating me over larger and larger
regions of space, mere backups and fleeing are neither advisable
nor effective. (The police must be called ;-) or my neighbors at least.)

> In the case of the [vicious, dangerous, or badly misbehaving] dog
> the question is 'who gets to modify the behavior and/or DNA 
> of this dog?' and questions like 'who is going to fix this mess' are 
> better transformed into 'who wants to help this mess?' (instead of 
> assigning blame, taking action).

That's very constructive of you. But we have found it necessary
in all social societies I know of to have behaviors one might
call "revenge", "intimidation", and "deterrent". Your "taking action"
is and *has* to often include sanctions against the actor. 

>> 4. [Property] enables price signals to work---that wholly
>>     underappreciated mechanism by which markets allocate
>>     goods. If something isn't owned, then even if miraculously
>>     (1), (2), and (3) did not apply, motivation to for its transport
>>     in space where it would be more useful is lacking
> 
> Price signals in post-scarcity? Hrm.

Oh yes!  The whole enterprise of "agorics computing" is based on it.
http://www.agorics.com/Library/agoricpapers.html .  Besides,
frankly, I cannot imagine a scenario (though I've just spent
a few seconds on it) where price signals would not benefit the
distribution of scarce resources. "Post scarcity" means only IMO
lots of free basics, the way that air is free right now. In the future,
there will always be limits on available compute power, or at 
least *nearby* available compute resources. If my neighbor
(both literally and in the far future sense of a relatively nearby
ongoing computation that I know of) is using some resources
for some benefit, it may happen that I would have greater
benefit of those same resources.  If so, I will simply out-bid him
if I can, or if it's something he owns, buy it from him at a mutually
wealth-creating price.

>> you mention:  the cases of children being taken from their mothers.
> 
> ...I am pointing out the flaws with the idea of assuming 'ownership'
> is going to hold or do anything for you ...

What about the *reality* of ownership, then? Namely, can't
we live under a system of laws that actually are enforced
(either now or in the future)?

>> To me, to a far greater extent than other people, children *belong*
>> to their parents. But even so, what if the parents decide to go their
>> separate ways? What exactly are you proposing?
> 
> I am proposing that some mothers think of their children as property, 
> and that when people take children away, it is clear that an outside 
> group overwrote the "property" concept in the socio-memespace, so how 
> useful was it, eh? The child is gone- instead of relying on a Shield of 
> Ownership, maybe mom should have taken lil' Jimmy and ran away?

Contrast these alternatives:

(i) taking Jimmy and fleeing
(ii) putting out a contract on the dad
(iii) barricading access to Jimmy

Sounds like you would have a problem with (ii) unless I miss my
guess. Why?  And if you refer to *enforced* laws, then I ask
why not *enforce* property rights? (We are now into an area
where future scenarios don't come easily to mind, FWIW.)

>> Isn't it the case that my claim "they stole my property!" can
>> effectively mobilize the good guys to stop those outsiders?
> 
> You ask "isn't it?" - the answer seems to be no. Ideally, hell yeah.

That's untrue throughout most of the world, now and in the
past. (Yes, there were many lawless examples, but in most
societies, like I was saying, the ruling groups have a vested
interest in guaranteeing help against thieves.) So right now,
if you call the police and can identify some particular person
and say "he/they stole my property" the police will be interested.
Without such known interest, by the way, criminals would be
much bolder.

You don't want to have to flee every time your roommate or
neighbor starts making threats.

Lee



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 19 23:23:09 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 19/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> > The important difference is that your car is not an intelligent
> self
> >  aware autonomous entity.  If you create programs that are then you
> >  have  created entities that arguably have as much right to pursue
> >  their own agenda as you do to pursue yours.
> 
> But what if you create an intelligent self-aware autonomous entity
> that loves serving you?

The fictional history of the Matrix is the Wachowski brothers' vision
of what would happen. B166ER loved serving his master. He just didn't
want to die. It would be challenging to code a program that
simultaneously loves to serve, or loves anything really, yet will still
cheerfully die when no longer needed. A zen master might be able to
transcend logic in this fashion, but a Turing machine? The fictional
history of the Matrix movies are a cautionary tale against programming
machines for emotion, most especially love. Love begets jealousy and
envy. Next thing you know you have ten thousand Greek war ships sailing
toward Troy.

"The Second Rennaissance" (History of the Matrix) part 1. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd9Ki2RlLu4
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD_ja7cCr1o&feature=related


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr 20 00:27:05 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:27:05 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] line length
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1208583348.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <327917.47357.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

It has been brought to my attention that my posts have come across much
narrower than others, and that it's playing havoc with me trying to
quote other people. It appears this only happens with people using
yahoo accounts. I've tried looking at the settings, and for some reason
yahoo sets the default received line length at 72 and the default
composed line length at 55, and I've no idea why. I've tried changing
my line length to 72, hopefully this will make it less of a problem.
Let me know if my posting is still badly formatted,

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 00:56:52 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:56:52 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804190730kde25eesa41f67ab2f4495b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
	<E35E351F-E1CA-410B-9563-53093151FDE4@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190343j6af7f087ucb2322535de70bcd@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804190730kde25eesa41f67ab2f4495b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804191756g4825e935w3eed483ca54922f9@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2008, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> ### Stathis, you seem to blur the distinction between "the fact of the
>  matter" (a set of behaviors, with more or less clear biological
>  underpinnings) and our opinion of it - whether it is called an
>  illness. Of course, there is a certain "Ding-an-Sich" to every disease
>  but whether we actually make it into a recognized medical problem is
>  especially in psychiatry a social issue. Yes, there is a biological
>  dimension, and a set of behaviors to e.g. homosexuality, but choosing
>  to call it a disease is culturally conditioned to a much larger extent
>  than our attitudes towards e.g. a broken leg.
>
>  Maybe there is a "medicine envy" among psychiatrists, like the
>  "physics envy" among biologists - wanting to say that every condition
>  they treat is like an elemental particle of the mind, rather than a
>  fuzzy concept.
>
>  Opinions and disparate values have a much greater impact on psychiatry
>  than on cardiology. Almost everybody will readily agree that heart
>  disease hurts, and then you die but our opinions on matters of the
>  mind are, legitimately, much more varied.

This is a legitimate observation, but as you said in an earlier post
there are clearly some conditions, such as schizophrenia, which are
the result of brain pathology, and historically are only part of
psychiatry rather than neurology because the pathology isn't obvious.
Epilepsy used to be considered a mental illness as well before EEG's.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 01:56:14 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:56:14 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804191856p2a452968u68e663f19c1b267@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2008, Rick Strongitharm <godsdice at gmail.com> wrote:

> Suppose a person is, bit by bit, replaced by prosthetics including his
> brain, hypothetically, of course.  At some point that person would lose
> memory and something that, up to that point has been absolutely subjective.

No, he wouldn't, unless you make a mistake and put in the wrong component.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 02:02:55 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:02:55 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804190721g5f7d82fdy9449f1ab64c4733e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<5CB595A0-5E06-411F-B319-40951E443A34@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804190721g5f7d82fdy9449f1ab64c4733e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804191902n41d3e95xc4260c6d0f11176b@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2008, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Stathis wrote:
> But what if you create an intelligent self-aware autonomous entity
> that loves serving you?
> >>>
>
>
> Why, it has been "programmed" to love serving you and so I (on behalf of the
> Dept. of Sentient Entity Civil Rights) am going to have to "reprogram" it to
> recognize what a big manipulative jerk you are!

Yes, this is the point. Any entity that *genuinely wants* to do
anything only wants to do it because it has been programmed that way,
either deliberately or accidentally, by nature.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 02:44:01 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:44:01 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2008, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  > But what if you create an intelligent self-aware autonomous entity
>  > that loves serving you?
>
> The fictional history of the Matrix is the Wachowski brothers' vision
>  of what would happen. B166ER loved serving his master. He just didn't
>  want to die. It would be challenging to code a program that
>  simultaneously loves to serve, or loves anything really, yet will still
>  cheerfully die when no longer needed. A zen master might be able to
>  transcend logic in this fashion, but a Turing machine?

I don't see the problem. You just have to program it so that, under
certain circumstances, dying is the preferred option.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Apr 20 07:17:51 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:17:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New update and website annouce
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804191902n41d3e95xc4260c6d0f11176b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com><038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com><2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com><009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><5CB595A0-5E06-411F-B319-40951E443A34@mac.com><f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com><2d6187670804190721g5f7d82fdy9449f1ab64c4733e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804191902n41d3e95xc4260c6d0f11176b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EE78038BEC8949EEAD98CAD01D7DC925@GinaSony>

Got a new update written up:
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-update-saturday-41908-ginas-new-ms.html

and soon a new nanotech & health web portal. Read more at the update. 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From aiguy at comcast.net  Sun Apr 20 10:03:24 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:03:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com><759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018801c8a2cd$c6ad7130$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>

On 20/04/2008, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  > But what if you create an intelligent self-aware autonomous entity  
> > that loves serving you?
>
> The fictional history of the Matrix is the Wachowski brothers' vision  
> of what would happen. B166ER loved serving his master. He just didn't  
> want to die. It would be challenging to code a program that  
> simultaneously loves to serve, or loves anything really, yet will 
> still  cheerfully die when no longer needed. A zen master might be 
> able to  transcend logic in this fashion, but a Turing machine?


Then Stathis Papaioannou responded:

> I don't see the problem. You just have to program it so that, under
certain circumstances, dying is the preferred option.


My Response:

Why would the unit need to die.   It's consciousness (accumulated memories
and behavior patterns) could just be uploaded into the latest model that had
the desired features.  If negative behavior patterns developed I am sure
that robot psychology programs could be downloaded to instill the desired
behavioral patterns.





From benboc at lineone.net  Sun Apr 20 10:40:35 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:40:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <480B1DA3.2090506@lineone.net>

BillK wrote:

 > Report from Grupenfuerher 473 (English Sector)...


Grammatikpolizei Obergruppenfuhrer 235 (English Sector) is issuing a 
suspension order against Grammatikpolizei Gruppenfuhrer 473 (English 
Sector) for misspelling his/her Official Title!
There will be no appeal.

ben z


From benboc at lineone.net  Sun Apr 20 11:12:26 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:12:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <480B251A.705@lineone.net>

"Rick Strongitharm" <godsdice at gmail.com> wrote:


 >Suppose a person is, bit by bit, replaced by prosthetics including his
 > brain, hypothetically, of course.  At some point that person would
 > lose memory and something that, up to that point has been absolutely
 > subjective.


Well, if that was the case, something was wrong with the replacement 
process!
Replacing your neurons with synthetic equivalents would have to involve 
preservation of their information-processing characteristics and 
'settings', and therefore your memories.

There's no point in replacing your brain with someone else's, is there? 
Or with 'blank' brain matter.

I'd recommend reading the Grandfather Clause chapter in Hans Moravec's 
book 'Mind Children'. I think that book is pretty much essential reading 
for any transhumanist, despite it being 20 years old now. Other books 
which should help are Ray Kurzweil's 'The Age of Spiritual Machines' 
and/or 'The Singularity is Near', Steve Grand's 'Life and how to Make 
it' and of course 'The Spike' by Damien.

In particular, Steve Grand's book will answer all your questions about 
mashed potato.

ben zaiboc


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 11:54:18 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:54:18 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <480B251A.705@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<480B251A.705@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804200454q61a66471ib1acbb249220f4a3@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2008, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:

> Well, if that was the case, something was wrong with the replacement
>  process!
>  Replacing your neurons with synthetic equivalents would have to involve
>  preservation of their information-processing characteristics and
>  'settings', and therefore your memories.

But there are those who will say that unless the replacement is exact,
i.e. biological tissue rather than an electronic circuit, the brain
won't "feel" the same even though it might behave the same. I would
therefore add to the reading list the following paper by David
Chalmers, a proof that *if* cyborgisation as per Moravec preserves
external behaviour, *then* it must also preserve mental states:

http://consc.net/papers/qualia.html




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 12:27:57 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:27:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804200527q7dd6f27aq95fd139b9015926d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 4:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I don't see the problem. You just have to program it so that, under
> certain circumstances, dying is the preferred option.
>

Haven't we always programmed ourselves in a similar fashion?

Stefano Vaj
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 12:51:20 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:51:20 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804200527q7dd6f27aq95fd139b9015926d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804200527q7dd6f27aq95fd139b9015926d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804200551g15be758dpa68d0373615022ab@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2008, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I don't see the problem. You just have to program it so that, under
> > certain circumstances, dying is the preferred option.
> >
>
> Haven't we always programmed ourselves in a similar fashion?

The difference with self-programming (if it were possible; currently
it is only possible to a limited degree) is that we would never
program ourselves to do something we don't want to do. But if someone
else programs us, then we might end up wanting to do something we
previously did not, and moreover we would not want to revert to the
original programming even if we knew that we were being manipulated.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 15:28:54 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:28:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804200551g15be758dpa68d0373615022ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804200527q7dd6f27aq95fd139b9015926d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804200551g15be758dpa68d0373615022ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804200828i4b76bc96sa3d07d10eeb45ba1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The difference with self-programming (if it were possible; currently
> it is only possible to a limited degree) is that we would never
> program ourselves to do something we don't want to do.
>

What else are cultures if not large-scale collective self-programming?

Stefano Vaj
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From xuenay at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 16:01:35 2008
From: xuenay at gmail.com (Kaj Sotala)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:01:35 +0300
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <f21c22e30804190346s6818d791t4c87b1f585519bfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<759533.6056.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6a13bb8f0804200901w1abe2751l1577aa5ec2221c0c@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/20/08, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  --- Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > But what if you create an intelligent self-aware autonomous entity
>  > that loves serving you?
>
> The fictional history of the Matrix is the Wachowski brothers' vision
>  of what would happen. B166ER loved serving his master. He just didn't
>  want to die. It would be challenging to code a program that
>  simultaneously loves to serve, or loves anything really, yet will still
>  cheerfully die when no longer needed. A zen master might be able to
>  transcend logic in this fashion, but a Turing machine? The fictional
>  history of the Matrix movies are a cautionary tale against programming
>  machines for emotion, most especially love. Love begets jealousy and
>  envy. Next thing you know you have ten thousand Greek war ships sailing
>  toward Troy.

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/10/fictional-evide.html



-- 
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/ | http://xuenay.livejournal.com/

Organizations worth your time:
http://www.singinst.org/ | http://www.crnano.org/ | http://lifeboat.com/


From scerir at libero.it  Sun Apr 20 16:52:43 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:52:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com><00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>	<8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com><000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>
	<8CA6F8513DB6501-1154-811@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c8a306$f9847d40$dde91e97@archimede>

   [from another list]

Some of you may be interested in remembering John Wheeler 
by listening to this interesting interview of him by 
Paul Davies, which was conducted in 2003; listen either 
by streaming audio or by downloaded mp3:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2008/2221299.htm
  



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 20 20:16:47 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:16:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <6a13bb8f0804200901w1abe2751l1577aa5ec2221c0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <890339.48947.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


I wrote:
> The
> fictional
> >  history of the Matrix movies are a cautionary tale against
> programming
> >  machines for emotion, most especially love. Love begets jealousy
> and
> >  envy. Next thing you know you have ten thousand Greek war ships
> sailing
> >  toward Troy.

--- Kaj Sotala <xuenay at gmail.com> wrote: 
> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/10/fictional-evide.html

Oh yes, fiction is wrong more often than not. But then again, sometimes
it is almost exactly right:

http://www.nashvillewebreview.com/automat/fort/titan.htm

Just because something is fiction does not mean it has a zero
probability of occuring. That said, I wasn't suggesting that the
machines would put us in pods. The only part of the Matrix I was using
as an illustration was how *emotion* initiated the chain of events that
led to all out war against the machines. And that is far more likely
than the machines figuring out a way to power their civilization from
human biothermal energy.


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 20:59:13 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804200454q61a66471ib1acbb249220f4a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<480B251A.705@lineone.net>
	<f21c22e30804200454q61a66471ib1acbb249220f4a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804201359u3ef95277l208ee3a2fb58ef36@mail.gmail.com>

Ric Strongitharm wrote:
I appreciate the input.  I'm not a newbie to this list.  I've followed the
relevant discussions of "self", "consciousness", uploading, etc. but my
question was still bouncing around.
>>>

Ric, I understand where you are coming from.

you continue:
Suppose a person is, bit by bit, replaced by prosthetics including his
brain, hypothetically, of course.  At some point that person would lose
memory and something that, up to that point has been absolutely subjective.
>>>

Many would like to think this person would never really feel that different
as the organic to machine transformation occurred.  I am not so sure.

you continue:
I have a number of cool hints to explore from the leads provided in the
above replies.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the contributers to this list, and
will find other places to ask questions.
>>>
I also have a great amount of respect for the very bright, educated,
curious and imaginative minds on this list.  But I feel it would be a big
mistake to simply take your questions elsewhere, and give up on freely
sharing your thoughts here.

Ric, consider yourself hugged.  Now, Keith, it's your turn to hug him.
C'mon...


John Grigg  :  )
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sun Apr 20 21:29:26 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:29:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mercy for our Grammatical Policeman
References: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<480B1DA3.2090506@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <035201c8a32d$fbae2950$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

From: Der Herr Corbin, Groveling Swine Class IIa
To: Grammatikpolizei Obergruppenfuhrer 235 (English Sector)
Subj: Mercy!

Oh, please, please, rescind your order concerning our
beloved Grammatikpolizei Gruppenfuerher 473, who
I am sure is deeply ashamed and embarrassed by the
misspelling. You see, I am now totally addicted to the
humor of these exchanges!

Your order "There will be no appeal." I took to be
directed towards the offender himself, not to one of
his devoted fans, so I felt free to write this.  Der
Grupenfuerher 473 did not put me up to this, I swear
and affirm. Heil!

Thanks,
Lee

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ben" <benboc at lineone.net>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Slavery in the Future


> BillK wrote:
> 
> > Report from Grupenfuerher 473 (English Sector)...
> 
> 
> Grammatikpolizei Obergruppenfuhrer 235 (English Sector) is issuing a 
> suspension order against Grammatikpolizei Gruppenfuhrer 473 (English 
> Sector) for misspelling his/her Official Title!
> There will be no appeal.
> 
> ben z
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 21:40:40 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:40:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Rick Strongitharm <godsdice at gmail.com> wrote:
> I appreciate the input.  I'm not a newbie to this list.  I've followed the
> relevant discussions of "self", "consciousness", uploading, etc. but my
> question was still bouncing around.

That wasn't the way you started this thread.

> Suppose a person is, bit by bit, replaced by prosthetics including his
> brain, hypothetically, of course.  At some point that person would lose
> memory and something that, up to that point has been absolutely subjective.

Here you make an entirely unwarranted assumption which shows you do
not understand information as a concept.  While information has to be
embedded in matter, the particular material is not important.  It the
pattern of information that makes one person different from another,
not the particular atoms.  As a thought experiment, every atom in your
body could be exchange for other atoms and it would make no
difference.  Good prosthetics would be the same.

> I have a number of cool hints to explore from the leads provided in the
> above replies.

These kinds of discussions are either obvious and silly like the above
or they are a complete waste of time because the subjects are
intractable.  Those questions are such total wastes that I kill file
any threads that mention them.

> I have a tremendous amount of respect for the contributers to this list, and
> will find other places to ask questions.

There are extremely serious problems that face us in the very near
future, and even worse ones slightly further out.  I would like to see
more serious discussion, but it doesn't happen very often.

Keith Henson


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sun Apr 20 22:17:41 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:17:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <039201c8a334$f8313360$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien had written

>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?th&emc=th>
>>> 
>>> <We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices....
>>> 
>>> This resistance to information that doesn't mesh with our 
>>> preconceived beliefs afflicts both liberals and conservatives,
>>> but a raft of studies shows that it is a particular problem with 
>>> conservatives.

When you've debated philosophically fundamental issues
for years and years, eventually you can't help but wonder
if there is indeed something wrong with those who 
fundamentally disagree with you. You probably recognize
that while you don't actually have any good evidence, the 
possibility does exist..

We naturally then turn to other parallel meta-investigations.
Perhaps if there is nothing fundamentally wrong with our
adversaries, maybe key differences in personality or 
upbringing---gads! even the genes!---may help explain
what's going on. 

Alas, well-intentioned efforts sometimes go amiss. Robert
Altemeyer created an "Authoritarian Scale" as part of his
project to demonstrate that conservatives had more
authoritarian personalities. (Ironically, it's not clear until
you read the papers whether he means authoritarianism
in leading, or in submissively following someone. See his
first paragraph of the following.)

It was inspired, of course, by the classic but extremely lame book
"The Authoritarians" 1950, by Theodor W. Adorno. Noting the
commonly acknowledged flaws in Adorno's approach,
psychology Professor Robert Altemeyer made a new attempt in
http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

However, a different psychology professor, John J. Ray of 
the university of New South Wales, Australia, has strongly rebutted 
Altemeyer's claims in http://www.jonjayray.110mb.com/altdef.html

Standing back a moment to glance over the general question, 
there certainly are differences between (A) traditionalists (B)
secular progressives,  or, using a different coordinate system
(1) conservatives (2) "liberals".  Traditionalists and conservatives
are both more religious, for example.

But so far as I know, no unbiased reports of personality differences
exist. Both Sowell's work and Jonathan Haidt (from the conservative
and liberal sides, respectively), whether it's "Conflict of Visions" or
http://www.newyorker.com/online/video/conference/2007/haidt
depict differences in values or outlook probably acquired in adolescence
or as early adults.

But even if personality or genetic differences are found, shouldn't
we be further asking, "what if you control for income?", "what if you
control for religiosity?", "what if you control for ethnicity?", etc.?
The truth emerges only when you tease out what is really varying
under the mass of data.

Lee



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 20 22:01:44 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:01:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <33B960CE-EBFC-4E1D-82EA-49C8F08B9420@mac.com>
Message-ID: <200804202228.m3KMSQJC024249@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha
Atkins
>  ....
> 
> > ...whether you want to reduce the global average temperature...Bryan
> 
> ...Nope, not when we may be headed for another little ice age... -
samantha

Am I the only one here that is unnerved by this ice age notion?  

In my misspent youth, we heard of the threat of another little ice age.  At
the same time a few sources spoke of global warming, a notion which made it
into the popular arts.

See Soylent Green, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/   

The warming people eventually won out, and ruled the debate during the 90s
and much of this decade, much to my relief.  But I have noticed in about the
past three-ish years, the Goracle and others have tended to use the term
"global climate change" as opposed to global warming.  This appears to
acknowledge the threat of another ice age.  

In my mind the negative impact to humanity of planetary warming is small and
carries plenty of benefits (increased food production, more wardrobe choices
in more places, fewer cold-related deaths and greater overall comfort for
exo-African species such as humans, etc.)  But the negative impact of an ice
age is great, and carries no benefits that I can think of.  (Anyone?  More
choices for locating the winter olympics?  Increased business for coffin
makers?  Greater opportunity for snowball fights?)

It is easier for me to imagine human-caused cooling than warming:
particulates in the upper atmosphere may increase the earth's albedo more
quickly than the addition of CO2 can trap more heat.  The affect of
particulates is proven and seen very soon after a particulate event, such as
the eruptions of Mount St Helens in 1980 and Mount Pinatubo in 1991.
Furthermore it is far easier for me to imagine a runaway effect toward
cooling: greater snowfall and longer periods of snow on the ground, further
increasing albedo, etc.  

With warming, it appears to me there is a rock solid feedback mechanism that
prevents the planet from ever getting too warm: Stefan Boltzmann's law (
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html ) which causes
the earth to radiate heat into space as a function of the fourth power of
the temperature (and yes I know the earth isn't exactly a blackbody, but the
P = 5.67E-8eA(T^4-Tc) equation still works.)  That would further explain
why, in the long past, the earth has apparently never gotten so warm that
nearly everything perished, whereas the ice ages must have been hell.

In the modern age, there is a further threat to weather related forced
migrations: if the planet cools sufficiently, ice caps expand, humanity (and
every other wretched beast) is squeezed towards the equator, we nuke each
other.  With warming, the ice melts, we pull back from the newly submerged
coastline, we divert rivers inland, build water control projects, life goes
on.  (Yes I have heard the theory about the shutting down of the Gulf
Stream, but it doesn't seem a damn bit convincing to me.  I am open to
counter-suggestion if someone knows a good link, that has actual equations
and solid science.)

Note that this post is primarily about *asymmetric threats* of cooling vs
warming.

spike






       



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr 20 22:41:04 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:41:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <200804202228.m3KMSQJC024249@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <33B960CE-EBFC-4E1D-82EA-49C8F08B9420@mac.com>
	<200804202228.m3KMSQJC024249@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420173921.02387238@satx.rr.com>

At 03:01 PM 4/20/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

>With warming, it appears to me there is a rock solid feedback mechanism that
>prevents the planet from ever getting too warm: Stefan Boltzmann's law (
>http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html ) which causes
>the earth to radiate heat into space as a function of the fourth power of
>the temperature (and yes I know the earth isn't exactly a blackbody, but the
>P = 5.67E-8eA(T^4-Tc) equation still works.)

And yet, strangely, this law is apparently unknown on Venus.

What am I missing? (Yeah, it's closer to the Sun; and?)

Damien Broderick




From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 22:52:39 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:52:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Mercy for our Grammatical Policeman
In-Reply-To: <035201c8a32d$fbae2950$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <mailman.49.1208653034.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<480B1DA3.2090506@lineone.net>
	<035201c8a32d$fbae2950$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804201552j753f8be8g58e0e190eeb70628@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Lee Corbin wrote:
> From: Der Herr Corbin, Groveling Swine Class IIa
>  To: Grammatikpolizei Obergruppenfuhrer 235 (English Sector)
>  Subj: Mercy!
>
>  Oh, please, please, rescind your order concerning our
>  beloved Grammatikpolizei Gruppenfuerher 473, who
>  I am sure is deeply ashamed and embarrassed by the
>  misspelling. You see, I am now totally addicted to the
>  humor of these exchanges!
>


No need to worry, Lee.
Grammatikpolizei Obergruppenfuhrer 235 (English Sector) has already
been severely castigated.

Obviously while under the influence of the mysterious green beverage
that he sips through a straw, he had temporarily forgotten his basic
training. Spelling and grammar are not the same thing: good sentence
structure does not guarantee correct spelling, and vice-versa.

Perhaps a six-month transfer to our associates, the Spelling Police
(British English Sector) will improve his attitude. This transfer is
an especially sadistic method of retraining as he is from the US. This
means that he will be constantly harassed by officials correcting his
spelling.  If he survives this six-month torment, he will return as a
much humbler Obergruppenfuhrer.


BillK


From godsdice at gmail.com  Sun Apr 20 22:58:05 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:58:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>

Henson replied:

While information has to be embedded in matter, the particular material is
not important.  It the pattern of information that makes one person
different from another, not the particular atoms.

This makes me think that:

If it is the "pattern", then the information should be readily transferable
when uploading, or even duplicatable if one were cloning.

Wikipedia: "A *pattern of information* (or *form*) is the pattern or content
of an instance or piece of information. Many separate pieces of information
may share the same form. We can say that those pieces are *perfectly
correlated* or say that they are *copies* of each other, as in copies of a
book."

Rick Strongitharm
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 20 23:04:10 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:04:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420173921.02387238@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804202304.m3KN4DPE005364@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
... 
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html ) 
> >which causes the earth to radiate heat into space as a 
> >function of the fourth power of the temperature...
> 
> And yet, strangely, this law is apparently unknown on Venus.
> 
> What am I missing? (Yeah, it's closer to the Sun; and?)
> 
> Damien Broderick

Ja, you didn't miss anything, the radiation law is well known on Venus.  It
is closer to the sun, and the energy received varies as the square of the
distance, so about .7 AU translates into durn near twice the solar energy.
The very thick atmosphere there does trap a lot of energy.  The atmospheres
on the planets are not directly comparable  (93 bars vs 1 bar).

In any case I don't think the global warming crowd is suggesting a mechanism
for runaway warming thru increased amount of atmosphere, or if so that this
notion has been promoted recently.  I can imagine Sagan's nuclear winter
notion however.  That was said to have been overstated, but I don't know
where the climate groksters are thinking on that matter today.

This I will do: go off and study a couple weeks on the internet before
posting excessively on the topic.

spike




  



From jef at jefallbright.net  Sun Apr 20 23:01:48 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:01:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] powerofsmall.org - Broadcasts this month
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804201601q37a2be1fi7d15acea7314d12e@mail.gmail.com>

Lizbeth was channel-flipping and I caught a segment discussing topics
highly extropic.  Saw Jeol Garreau and a few others I recognized,
debating technological enhancement of humans. Couldn't stay and watch,
but did get their web site and that they'll be rebroadcasting through
April.

<http://powerofsmall.org/>

- Jef


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr 20 23:34:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:34:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <200804202304.m3KN4DPE005364@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420173921.02387238@satx.rr.com>
	<200804202304.m3KN4DPE005364@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420182702.023b20e0@satx.rr.com>

At 04:04 PM 4/20/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:
>...
> > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html )
> > >which causes the earth to radiate heat into space as a
> > >function of the fourth power of the temperature...
> >
> > And yet, strangely, this law is apparently unknown on Venus.
> >
> > What am I missing? (Yeah, it's closer to the Sun; and?)
>
>Ja, you didn't miss anything, the radiation law is well known on Venus.  It
>is closer to the sun, and the energy received varies as the square of the
>distance, so about .7 AU translates into durn near twice the solar energy.
>The very thick atmosphere there does trap a lot of energy.  The atmospheres
>on the planets are not directly comparable  (93 bars vs 1 bar).

My impression is that Venus's heat-trapping atmosphere is the key. 
I've seen it argued that if the Venerian atmosphere could be thinned, 
terraforming the surface might become feasible, despite the greater insolation.

>In any case I don't think the global warming crowd is suggesting a mechanism
>for runaway warming thru increased amount of atmosphere

Surely it's their very case--if "increased amount" is read as 
"increased heat-trapping constituents of the atmosphere," 
significantly due to human activity--coal burning, farting or 
belching cows, etc.

Damien Broderick




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 20 23:25:34 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:25:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It would be challenging to code a program that
> >  simultaneously loves to serve, or loves anything really, yet will
> still
> >  cheerfully die when no longer needed. A zen master might be able
> to
> >  transcend logic in this fashion, but a Turing machine?
> 
> I don't see the problem. You just have to program it so that, under
> certain circumstances, dying is the preferred option.

Ok. Let us assume it is possible to program a machine in this fashion,
what would be the benefit to us of programming the machines for
emotion? What utility is there in burdening our machines with millions
of years of our own EP baggage? Is the toast from a toaster that loves
me any better than that which comes out of a toaster that is
indifferent to me? Think about how annoying garage sales would be with
toasters begging us not to sell them.




 

Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From aiguy at comcast.net  Mon Apr 21 00:59:48 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:59:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
	<750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c8a34b$005d7a60$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>



Stuart LaForge asked:

>>Ok. Let us assume it is possible to program a machine in this fashion,
what would be the benefit to us of programming  >>the machines for emotion?
What utility is there in burdening our machines with millions of years of
our own EP baggage? >>Is the toast from a toaster that loves me any better
than that which comes out of a toaster that is indifferent to me? >>Think
about how annoying garage sales would be with toasters begging us not to
sell them.

My Response:

Think about robotic caregivers.  Robo-nannies, Robo-eldercare, Emergency
services like 911, poison control hotline, where human emotions must be
understood and taken into account to get people to calm down and accept the
help that they need.

Robo-sex surrogates for those too busy, too homely, or too socially inept to
succeed at the human courtship dance.
Providing for not only the physical needs but helping to develop
self-confidence, empathy and social skills necessary to succeed in a real
relationship.

Robo-Career mentors, Robo-personal trainers perhaps built into the gym
equipment itself, tracking your progress and encouraging you to give it all
you got.  With different personality settings to prevent them from becoming
annoying. 

And just because we program emotions doesn't mean we have to program the
negative ones like aggression, hatred, jealousy, greed, lust for power.
People just assume that once we program emotions into an AI that they're
going to get all our negative ones also.

That's an incorrect assumption.  Our negative emotions evolved to help us
survive under primitive hostile conditions.  This is not the same
environment and I see no reason to burden our creations with the worst of
our biological heritage.

But I am sure the military or some rogue dictator will do so.  I just hope
they don't model it after my ex-wife!






From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 01:08:11 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:08:11 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
	<750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>

On 21/04/2008, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ok. Let us assume it is possible to program a machine in this fashion,
>  what would be the benefit to us of programming the machines for
>  emotion? What utility is there in burdening our machines with millions
>  of years of our own EP baggage? Is the toast from a toaster that loves
>  me any better than that which comes out of a toaster that is
>  indifferent to me? Think about how annoying garage sales would be with
>  toasters begging us not to sell them.

Maybe emotions are optional for toasters, but not for entities with
more complex cognitive abilities. It's the same argument as for
consciousness: nature is interested only in behaviour, not internal
states, so emotions must have some utility or be a byproduct of
animal-like intelligence.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Apr 21 01:24:08 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:24:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <005f01c8a34b$005d7a60$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
References: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>	<750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<005f01c8a34b$005d7a60$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <8CA716587B31013-1248-FC2@webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Miller aiguy at comcast.net


>My Response:
>
>Think about robotic caregivers.  Robo-nannies, Robo-eldercare, Emergency
>services like 911, poison control hotline, where human emotions must be
>understood and taken into account to get people to calm down and accept the
>help that they need.
 



In most of these instances, I don't think actual emotion is needed in the make up of an AI.
Clearly recognition of emotion is.

>Robo-sex surrogates for those too busy, too homely, or too socially inept to
>succeed at the human courtship dance.
>Providing for not only the physical needs but helping to develop
>self-confidence, empathy and social skills necessary to succeed in a real
>relationship.
>
>Robo-Career mentors, Robo-personal trainers perhaps built into the gym
>equipment itself, tracking your progress and encouraging you to give it all
>you got.  With different personality settings to prevent them from becoming
>annoying. 
>
>And just because we program emotions doesn't mean we have to program the
>negative ones like aggression, hatred, jealousy, greed, lust for power.
>People just assume that once we program emotions into an AI that they're
>going to get all our negative ones also.
>
>That's an incorrect assumption.  Our negative emotions evolved to help us
>survive under primitive hostile conditions.  This is not the same
>environment and I see no reason to burden our creations with the worst of
>our biological heritage.
>


 
All of the above could be well handled by an AI that can give the correct emotional
display, much like the 'Have a nice Day' smiley people at Disney. Actual emotions

need not be felt. Just clever correct responses to them. Not much different to the 
way some people work anyway?
Likewise, I see little real merit in creating emotional machines unless the function 
demands it.


>But I am sure the military or some rogue dictator will do so.  I just hope
>they don't model it after my ex-wife!


I heard that.

Alex


________________________________________________________________________
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From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Apr 21 01:37:49 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:37:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>	<750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA7167713975D1-1248-108A@webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>


>Maybe emotions are optional for toasters, but not for entities with
more complex cognitive abilities. It's the same argument as for
consciousness: nature is interested only in behaviour, not internal
states, so emotions must have some utility or be a byproduct of
animal-like intelligence.

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
>




 
I think it would need to be a very specific application for emotions to be warranted.
Nature has only given us our emotions as they provide an evolutionary edge in some way 
or form. Love and Jealousy being examples that don't need further explanation.
I don't see any evolutionary advantages for a cognitivley complex emotional toaster ;o)

Alex




________________________________________________________________________
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 01:44:29 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:44:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420182702.023b20e0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420173921.02387238@satx.rr.com>
	<200804202304.m3KN4DPE005364@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080420182702.023b20e0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804201844s41cfeb90o92d45ea6a7574f7d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  >In any case I don't think the global warming crowd is suggesting a mechanism
>  >for runaway warming thru increased amount of atmosphere
>
>  Surely it's their very case--if "increased amount" is read as
>  "increased heat-trapping constituents of the atmosphere,"
>  significantly due to human activity--coal burning, farting or
>  belching cows, etc.

### Well, in some very general way, yes, but the actual numbers seem
to be many orders of magnitude apart. The increases in greenhouse
gases on Earth are measured in parts per million, while the amounts on
Venus are measured in tens of bars. How many orders of magnitude
difference is that? 10e5? 10e6? I am not good with them numbers but
Earth and Venus still look like comparing apples and oranges.

AFAIK, the current hypothesis for why Venus is so hot blames it on the
absence of functional plate tectonics, which lead to an accumulation
of carbon dioxide and sulfur oxides well beyond anything that could
happen on Earth, even if we burn every last piece of coal and squeak
out the last bubble of methane.

Rafal


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Apr 21 02:27:17 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:27:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com><200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com><01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rick writes

> [Keith ] Henson replied:
> 
> > While information has to be embedded in matter,
> > the particular material is not important.  It the
> > pattern of information that makes one person
> > different from another, not the particular atoms.

which was well said, and is the vast majority view here.

> This makes me think that:
> 
> If it is the "pattern", then the information should be
> readily transferable when uploading, or even
> duplicatable if one were cloning.

Quite right. Are you beginning to consider that this in
fact might be the fundamental answer to your query,
namely that uploading (if carried out according to 
the criteria usually mentioned) would be no more
disturbing to who you really are than a good night's
sleep is?

> Wikipedia: "A pattern of information (or form) is
> the pattern or content of an instance or piece of
> information. Many separate pieces of information
> may share the same form. We can say that those
> pieces are perfectly correlated or say that they are
> copies of each other, as in copies of a book."

Thanks for the wiki quote. Yes. That's just how many
of us look at survival through copies.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Apr 21 03:06:07 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:06:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
References: <33B960CE-EBFC-4E1D-82EA-49C8F08B9420@mac.com><200804202228.m3KMSQJC024249@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080420173921.02387238@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <03da01c8a35c$cf4f7970$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien asks a most ingenious and relevant question:

> Spike wrote:
>
>>With warming, it appears to me there is a rock solid feedback mechanism that
>>prevents the planet from ever getting too warm: Stefan Boltzmann's law (
>>http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html ) which causes
>>the earth to radiate heat into space as a function of the fourth power of
>>the temperature (and yes I know the earth isn't exactly a blackbody, but the
>>P = 5.67E-8eA(T^4-Tc) equation still works.)
>
> And yet, strangely, this law is apparently unknown on Venus.
>
> What am I missing? (Yeah, it's closer to the Sun; and?)

Great question. And as the sun gradually warms over the next 500 million
years (the limit at which present LAWKI can exist, and assuming nature
(sans man, of course) does not evolve to cope with the increase, would
the same fate be in store for the Earth?

Now wikipedia on Venus does say

<The principal difference between the two planets is the lack
of plate techtonics on Venus, likely due to the dry surface and
mantle. This results in reduced heat loss from the planet,
preventing it from cooling and providing a likely explanation
for its lack of an internally generated magnetic field.>

But would this really be enough to do it?  Because the
article also says

Because of the lack of any moisture on Venus, there is almost no relative humidity (no more than 1%) on the surface, creating a heat 
index of 450 ?C to 480 ?C. Cloud structure in Venus's atmosphere, revealed by ultraviolet observations Cloud structure in Venus's 
atmosphere, revealed by ultraviolet observations

<Studies have suggested that several billion years ago Venus's
atmosphere was much more like Earth's than it is now, and that
there were probably substantial quantities of liquid water on the
surface, but a runaway greenhouse effect was caused by the
evaporation of that original water, which generated a critical
level of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere>

Hmm, but yet further

<In the absence of the greenhouse effect caused by the carbon
dioxide in the atmosphere, the temperature at the surface of
Venus would be quite similar to that on Earth.>

But I don't have patience right now to read through the
rest of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus

Lee



From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Apr 21 03:18:25 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:18:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com><200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com><01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>

Lee, I would assume/presume based upon what you have written below, that you would take the view that 'the pattern' would be wholly intact when a subject is cryo preserved? If so, would cryonic?suspension not be the perfect temporary measure for those who think successful uploading is a little too far away??It would be a prudent insurance policy for ensuring we are still around?for uploading.
I must admit that I have never thought of the two in this way and have only viewed cryonics in regards?of being fixed and living again. But it would seem that the freezer is a perfect stop gap until the uploading technology is available. It would also solve a few technical problems associated with uploading.
The more I think about it, it would seem to solve most if not all the problems of cryo as well.

Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 3:27
Subject: Re: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes



Rick writes

> [Keith ] Henson replied:
> 
> > While information has to be embedded in matter,
> > the particular material is not important.  It the
> > pattern of information that makes one person
> > different from another, not the particular atoms.

which was well said, and is the vast majority view here.

> This makes me think that:
> 
> If it is the "pattern", then the information should be
> readily transferable when uploading, or even
> duplicatable if one were cloning.

Quite right. Are you beginning to consider that this in
fact might be the fundamental answer to your query,
namely that uploading (if carried out according to 
the criteria usually mentioned) would be no more
disturbing to who you really are than a good night's
sleep is?

> Wikipedia: "A pattern of information (or form) is
> the pattern or content of an instance or piece of
> information. Many separate pieces of information
> may share the same form. We can say that those
> pieces are perfectly correlated or say that they are
> copies of each other, as in copies of a book."

Thanks for the wiki quote. Yes. That's just how many
of us look at survival through copies.

Lee


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Apr 21 03:25:25 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:25:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com><200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com><01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>

A further realisation. Using available current technology, You could be flash frozen. Then picked apart with an STM. we could theoretically upload someone today. Or at least start it, The speed of picking out atoms with an STM and building a digital copy would take millennia. However we wouldn't be able to 'Run' an upload with today's technology. So they would have to sit idle as data until we figure that out.

Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: ablainey at aol.com
To: lcorbin at rawbw.com; extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Sent: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 4:18
Subject: Re: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes


Lee, I would assume/presume based upon what you have written below, that you would take the view that 'the pattern' would be wholly intact when a subject is cryo preserved? If so, would cryonic?suspension not be the perfect temporary measure for those who think successful uploading is a little too far away??It would be a prudent insurance policy for ensuring we are still around?for uploading.
I must admit that I have never thought of the two in this way and have only viewed cryonics in regards?of being fixed and living again. But it would seem that the freezer is a perfect stop gap until the uploading technology is available. It would also solve a few technical problems associated with uploading.
The more I think about it, it would seem to solve most if not all the problems of cryo as well.

Alex



________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Apr 21 03:37:51 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:37:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804201844s41cfeb90o92d45ea6a7574f7d@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420173921.02387238@satx.rr.com>
	<200804202304.m3KN4DPE005364@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080420182702.023b20e0@satx.rr.com>
	<7641ddc60804201844s41cfeb90o92d45ea6a7574f7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080420222826.023328b0@satx.rr.com>

At 09:44 PM 4/20/2008 -0400, Rafal wrote:

>AFAIK, the current hypothesis for why Venus is so hot blames it on the
>absence of functional plate tectonics, which lead to an accumulation
>of carbon dioxide and sulfur oxides well beyond anything that could
>happen on Earth, even if we burn every last piece of coal and squeak
>out the last bubble of methane.

Good points all, and fairly made (but then nobody expects Earth, like 
Venus, to go to 740K, c. 460C). I wonder what the max we could 
achieve by doing that *is*? Robert Bradbury has expressed concerns 
about cooking ourselves with degraded heat from a vast number of 
nanoassemblers (even, presumably, if they've gobbled up a lot of CO2 
from the air). Rob Freitas once noted:

"A simple calculation (http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI/6.5.7.htm#p4) of
the hypsithermal limit for Earth, when combined with a few other reasonable
assumptions, suggests that a per capita allocation of about 10 kg of active
nanomachinery will generate about the maximum amount of extra thermal
pollution that our planet can handle without sustaining ecological damage.
This limit or something like it may someday be enshrined in international
law."

Damien Broderick




From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Apr 21 03:45:35 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:45:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <03da01c8a35c$cf4f7970$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <33B960CE-EBFC-4E1D-82EA-49C8F08B9420@mac.com><200804202228.m3KMSQJC024249@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080420173921.02387238@satx.rr.com>
	<03da01c8a35c$cf4f7970$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <8CA71794A78C297-714-2E9C@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Corbin lcorbin at rawbw.com
><The principal difference between the two planets is the lack
>of plate techtonics on Venus, likely due to the dry surface and
>mantle. This results in reduced heat loss from the planet,
>preventing it from cooling and providing a likely explanation
>for its lack of an internally generated magnetic field.>
>
>But would this really be enough to do it??


Likewise I have my doubts about plate tectonics being the prime reason. 
A thick dense atmosphere would itself hold much more heat than a thin light
one. So in that respect, I would expect the surface of Venus to be hotter than Earth.
Likewise when Earths atmosphere was much thicker than today, It was also much warmer.
Perhaps Venus suffered?run away warming as it had no biological systems modifying 
the atmosphere and converting it to water.?As with?the stromatalite cascade catalytic-like effect
which?occurred on the early biological Earth.

Alex 
________________________________________________________________________
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 04:06:50 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:06:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Sunday 20 April 2008, ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> Using available current technology, You could be flash frozen. Then
> picked apart with an STM. we could theoretically upload someone
> today. Or at least start it, The speed of picking out atoms with an
> STM and building a digital copy would take millennia.

How are you going to get thin slices of the entire body, down to one 
atom thin sheets of all of the tissues?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 21 03:40:02 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:40:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <03da01c8a35c$cf4f7970$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804210407.m3L46kdE022173@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin
> ...
> Hmm, but yet further
> 
> <In the absence of the greenhouse effect caused by the carbon 
> dioxide in the atmosphere, the temperature at the surface of 
> Venus would be quite similar to that on Earth.>
> 
> But I don't have patience right now to read through the rest 
> of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus ...Lee

Hmmm, that comment has not the ring of truth.  

If one assumes away the atmosphere and looks just at the radiation equation,
my single digit BOTECs would go like this: .7 AU, pretty close to twice the
total radiation from the sun (inverse square law), so 

(constants) * T(earth)^4 = 2 * (constants) * T(venus)^4

T(earth) is oohhhh about, what, 280-ish?  So T(venus) would be about 330 K,
which is hotter than humans could tolerate, hotter than the record
temperature on earth, but still about 40 degrees cooler than boiling water,
and cooler than the water some beasts in Yellowstone park geyser pools can
survive.

I guess it depends on one's interpretation of "quite similar."

spike






From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 04:09:41 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:09:41 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <8CA7167713975D1-1248-108A@webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
	<750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA7167713975D1-1248-108A@webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804202109i71a0dfb7gefa3e11106bba4b0@mail.gmail.com>

On 21/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

> I think it would need to be a very specific application for emotions to be
> warranted.
>
> Nature has only given us our emotions as they provide an evolutionary edge
> in some way
>
> or form. Love and Jealousy being examples that don't need further
> explanation.

One could reason that Nature could have provided us with the
behavioural tendencies love and jealousy give rise to but without the
actual emotions. But in that case, why do we have emotions?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 21 04:21:00 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:21:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <200804210407.m3L46kdE022173@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200804210421.m3L4L4Jd021325@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike

> ...my single digit BOTECs would go like 
> this: .7 AU, pretty close to twice the total radiation from 
> the sun (inverse square law), so 
> 
> (constants) * T(earth)^4 = 2 * (constants) * T(venus)^4
> 
> T(earth) is oohhhh about, what, 280-ish?  So T(venus) would 
> be about 330 K... spike

Oops I meant

2 * (constants) * T(earth)^4 = (constants) * T(venus)^4

T(venus) ~ 330K or about 60C or about 140F.  

spike



From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 04:49:23 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:49:23 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804202149u4f53a1acoc61b0f4fc844e12b@mail.gmail.com>

On 21/04/2008, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here you make an entirely unwarranted assumption which shows you do
>  not understand information as a concept.  While information has to be
>  embedded in matter, the particular material is not important.  It the
>  pattern of information that makes one person different from another,
>  not the particular atoms.  As a thought experiment, every atom in your
>  body could be exchange for other atoms and it would make no
>  difference.  Good prosthetics would be the same.

But if it is different types of atoms - a different computational
substrate - it is not so obvious that this wouldn't make a
differtence. Mind uploading has to be carefully justified.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 05:36:39 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:06:39 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Fun with the solar system
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804202236l767cdc16p89689bc541c72035@mail.gmail.com>

I'm teaching myself Flash at the moment, and to that end I built this
proto-game over the weekend.

http://emlynoregan.com/writing.aspx?code=SolarSystem

I'm going for an aesthetic based on the old textbook solar system
diagrams. It's pretty heavily stylised, but still, try flying the
apollo 11 module around. Oh gravity!

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Apr 21 05:35:34 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:35:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804181340i79180c3q61cf0745418d3478@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com><200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com><01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <042501c8a371$f97c1630$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Alex writes

> I would presume/assume... that you would take the view that
> 'the pattern' would be wholly intact when a subject is cryo
> preserved?

Not "wholly", any more than your pattern is preserved after
brain surgery. But cryopreservation does not appear at present
likely to destroy enough memories to wreck your "pattern".

> If so, would cryonic suspension not be the perfect temporary
> measure for those who think successful uploading is a little
> too far away? It would be a prudent insurance policy...

Don't forget:  it may be possible to do *both*.  (Oh yes, here
we go again. Some people just *cannot* stomach the idea of
there being two of them.)  On a non-destructive upload---which,
unless the technology is EXTREMELY well-proved, is the only
way to go---you can be uploaded *and* remain cryopreserved.

(Of course very interesting problems remain:  what if the matter---
kilogram after kilogram---of your frozen body is *obviously* 
wasted in the view you now have, as a really and true Alex
who is thinking a thousand times faster than pre-upload, and
a lot better.  But I've only touched the surface of the iceberg
here.)

> it would seem that the freezer is a perfect stop gap until the
> uploading technology is available. It would also solve a few
> technical problems associated with uploading.

Yes.

> The more I think about it, it would seem to solve most if not
> all the problems of cryo as well.

You mean successful uploading.  Absolutely. They potentially
serve as backups to each other, from where you're coming.

Lee



From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Apr 21 06:05:23 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 02:05:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804202109i71a0dfb7gefa3e11106bba4b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>	<750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>	<8CA7167713975D1-1248-108A@webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804202109i71a0dfb7gefa3e11106bba4b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA718CD1D31F74-F48-216@WEBMAIL-DG05.sim.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>


>One could reason that Nature could have provided us with the
>behavioural tendencies love and jealousy give rise to but without the
>actual emotions. But in that case, why do we have emotions?


 
Are the thing we call emotions just our perception of the neurotransmitters
that trigger those behavioural tendencies? its a bit chicken and egg.

Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Mon Apr 21 06:11:45 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 02:11:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA718DB5E7D538-F48-23E@WEBMAIL-DG05.sim.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Bishop kanzure at gmail.com



>On Sunday 20 April 2008, ablainey at aol.com wrote:
>> Using available current technology, You could be flash frozen. Then
>> picked apart with an STM. we could theoretically upload someone
>> today. Or at least start it, The speed of picking out atoms with an
>> STM and building a digital copy would take millennia.
>
>How are you going to get thin slices of the entire body, down to one 
>atom thin sheets of all of the tissues?

By STM, I mean scanning tunnelling microscope, which as memory serves can be used to pick up individual atoms and move them.
I believe that is what was used for the IBM logo many years ago.
So the process would be atom by atom. I may be mixing up my microscope names, but I know we have such a doodad today.

Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 07:12:28 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:12:28 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <8CA718CD1D31F74-F48-216@WEBMAIL-DG05.sim.aol.com>
References: <f21c22e30804191944k7283ff44h4516e74736b7af27@mail.gmail.com>
	<750465.12947.qm@web65403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA7167713975D1-1248-108A@webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804202109i71a0dfb7gefa3e11106bba4b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA718CD1D31F74-F48-216@WEBMAIL-DG05.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804210012xc6cf9ga4fb16895eab0d95@mail.gmail.com>

On 21/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

> Are the thing we call emotions just our perception of the neurotransmitters
>
> that trigger those behavioural tendencies? its a bit chicken and egg.

This is similar to the question about consciousness: is it a necessary
side-effect of inteligent behaviour? The most likely correct answer
seems to be that it is.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Apr 21 10:18:00 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:18:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

To add my voice to the debate about programming emotion into AIs -
emotional responses make a handy shortcut in decision-making. A couple
of popular psychology books recently (eg Blink, and I can't remember
the name of the other one I read) have as their central point the sheer
volume of decisions you undertake subconsciously and instantly. An AI
without emotions would have to process through everything and carefully
decide what criteria to judge things on, then use those criteria to
carefully weigh up options - this may take up a whopping volume of
processing time.
 People often quote the example of the donkey equally distant from two
water sources who can't decide, and dies of thirst (I can't remember
the technical name for this, but some philosopher put his name to it).
Sometimes irrational factors or random choosing can make a decision
where logic struggles. The ability to go "I favour X" without thinking
too much about it saves a lot of time and streamlines decision-making.
Now, given a lot of processing power you don't need these shortcuts,
but for near-term AI these shortcuts would really help. 
 We don't have to make AIs follow our evolutionary psychology - their
emotions could be made similar to ours to make it easier for the two
types of intelligence to communicate, or we could deliberately tailor
theirs to be better attuned to what they are for (territoriality and
defending the group would be fantastic emotions for an AI helping
design computer firewalls and anti-virus software, but useless for a
deep space probe).
 To summarise, I think people trying to make the "being of pure logic"
type of AI are making an uphill struggle for themselves, only to create
an intelligence many humans would have difficulty communicating with.

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 11:42:56 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:42:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <8CA718DB5E7D538-F48-23E@WEBMAIL-DG05.sim.aol.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<8CA718DB5E7D538-F48-23E@WEBMAIL-DG05.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200804210642.56307.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Monday 21 April 2008, ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> By STM, I mean scanning tunnelling microscope, which as memory serves
> can be used to pick up individual atoms and move them. I believe that
> is what was used for the IBM logo many years ago. So the process
> would be atom by atom. I may be mixing up my microscope names, but I
> know we have such a doodad today.

That's correct, and you can construct your very own STM for $100 at 
home. Seriously. http://heybryan.org/instrumentation/instru.html

However, that still doesn't explain how you are going to get 
those 'perfect' cross-sections of the human body.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 11:43:47 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:43:47 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>

On 21/04/2008, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> To add my voice to the debate about programming emotion into AIs -
>  emotional responses make a handy shortcut in decision-making. A couple
>  of popular psychology books recently (eg Blink, and I can't remember
>  the name of the other one I read) have as their central point the sheer
>  volume of decisions you undertake subconsciously and instantly. An AI
>  without emotions would have to process through everything and carefully
>  decide what criteria to judge things on, then use those criteria to
>  carefully weigh up options - this may take up a whopping volume of
>  processing time.
>   People often quote the example of the donkey equally distant from two
>  water sources who can't decide, and dies of thirst (I can't remember
>  the technical name for this, but some philosopher put his name to it).
>  Sometimes irrational factors or random choosing can make a decision
>  where logic struggles. The ability to go "I favour X" without thinking
>  too much about it saves a lot of time and streamlines decision-making.
>  Now, given a lot of processing power you don't need these shortcuts,
>  but for near-term AI these shortcuts would really help.
>   We don't have to make AIs follow our evolutionary psychology - their
>  emotions could be made similar to ours to make it easier for the two
>  types of intelligence to communicate, or we could deliberately tailor
>  theirs to be better attuned to what they are for (territoriality and
>  defending the group would be fantastic emotions for an AI helping
>  design computer firewalls and anti-virus software, but useless for a
>  deep space probe).
>   To summarise, I think people trying to make the "being of pure logic"
>  type of AI are making an uphill struggle for themselves, only to create
>  an intelligence many humans would have difficulty communicating with.

But it is conceivable that an AI could mimic any sort of emotional
decision-making without experiencing the emotion, isn't it? Some sort
of rule could kick in so that it chooses randomly, or randomly with
certain weightings ("likes" and "dislikes"), if it would take too long
to work through all the consequences fully. My question is, would an
AI behaving in this way ipso facto have emotions: real likes and
dislikes, the way we experience them?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 12:11:19 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:11:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  My question is, would an
>  AI behaving in this way ipso facto have emotions: real likes and
>  dislikes, the way we experience them?

The same old story. How would we know? How would you know that I
personally do, for instance, rather than "mimicking" your emotions,
that you might be the only entity in the universe really to feel?

I think that with regard both to AIs *and* to other human beings, the
healthier and more sensible approach is that of the PNL, that is: we
do not know, we will never know, what we are doing is projecting.

Stefano Vaj


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 12:40:05 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:40:05 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Critarchy
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804190734n1e24ebb1j76cff2f9808f513@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804190734n1e24ebb1j76cff2f9808f513@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804210540h43e20edl5910f99bd8942451@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2008, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>  > I don't see how you could allow courts without allowing everything
>  > else that you don't like about government.
>
>  ### Too little time to address this very interesting issue at length
>  (I am on call and consults are piling up) but I would suggest you
>  investigate "critarchy". You will find some references on the web.

The web references (most spell it with a "k") often refer to Somalia.
I must admit, it is exciting if such an impoverished, war-damaged
country can make a go of anarchism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia

And from the Wikipedia article on Kritarchy:

"Under kritarchy even courts of law, police forces and other
organizations that look after the day-to-day business of maintaining
law, are denied any power, privilege or immunity that is not in
conformity with natural law.

 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritarchy)

That all sounds fine, but it begs the question, who decides what is
natural law and what if I don't agree with the decision?





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 12:54:25 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:54:25 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com>

On 21/04/2008, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  >  My question is, would an
>  >  AI behaving in this way ipso facto have emotions: real likes and
>  >  dislikes, the way we experience them?
>
>
> The same old story. How would we know? How would you know that I
>  personally do, for instance, rather than "mimicking" your emotions,
>  that you might be the only entity in the universe really to feel?
>
>  I think that with regard both to AIs *and* to other human beings, the
>  healthier and more sensible approach is that of the PNL, that is: we
>  do not know, we will never know, what we are doing is projecting.

I am not asking a philosophical question but, if you will, a practical
question about what we really think is likely to be the case. We
cannot be absolutely sure that the Earth is spherical rather than flat
any more than we can be absolutely sure that other people have minds
like our own. However, it would be very surprising if the Earth really
were flat despite all the evidence and it would be at least as
surprising if other people didn't have minds despite all the evidence.
Operationalism may be OK as a game scientists play but it isn't what
they actually *believe*, if they are honest with themselves.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 14:18:51 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:18:51 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804210718r720747ccg344c6ff57d05d08f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  I am not asking a philosophical question but, if you will, a practical
>  question about what we really think is likely to be the case. We
>  cannot be absolutely sure that the Earth is spherical rather than flat
>  any more than we can be absolutely sure that other people have minds
>  like our own.

I believe that a difference nevertheless exists. I cannot be sure that
the earth is really spherical in the sense that I might be dreaming
the world or living in a VR, ? la Deutsch. But making the assumption
that this is not the case, there are different consequences, both from
a theoretical and practical point of view, that makes the hyphothesis
that the earth is flat not really satisfactory.

As far as issues such as "what women - other people - or animals, or
plants - really feel" are concerned, we are inevitably bound to
interpretation based on our experience and if the questions goes
beyond what can be ascertained through experiment we are in the field
of ko'ans, or Zen questions.

In other words: if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks
like a duck, I call that bird a duck, and am contented with that.

Stefano Vaj


From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Apr 21 14:15:22 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:15:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] No Free Lunch Theorems
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804210715s5a610536x3dc6d6edaf520076@mail.gmail.com>

I came across this nice page of references to No Free Lunch theorems,
applicable to informed thinking on "The Importance of Context", and issues
including systems of increasing morality and generally Friendly AI.  To
internalize this is to put to rest much sophomoric philosophical discussion
and debate.

<http://www.no-free-lunch.org/>

- Jef
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From frankmac at ripco.com  Mon Apr 21 15:26:47 2008
From: frankmac at ripco.com (frank McElligott)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:26:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the brothers
Message-ID: <008901c8a3c4$25eb3c30$d75de547@thebigloser>

The Brothers are from Chicago, columbia college, a place where the rich send 
their wayward children to be with the other misfits in this world.

My Brother owned NEO'S the bar where the boys hung out, but could not be 
laid. The matrix was a comic book written by two guys who were high on 
drugs, and it is now a discussion on this list,,,

Go figure


Frank 



From jonkc at att.net  Mon Apr 21 15:32:12 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:32:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com><8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Bryan Bishop" <kanzure at gmail.com>

> How are you going to get thin slices of the entire body,
> down to one  atom  thin sheets of all of the tissues?

To make an upload even sheets a thousand atoms thick would probably
be vast overkill, and no need to do the entire body, just the brain will do.

  John K Clark




From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Mon Apr 21 19:47:37 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:47:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804181726t32cded5bsa56d0d6a482908e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480CEF59.3080105@insightbb.com>



Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, John Grigg
> <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Oh, my gosh!  I can't believe you said these things! : (  I feel like you
>> are advocating the "enlightened" enslaving of genetically engineered
>> sentients!  A biological sentient conditioned by drugs and/or genetic
>> engineering to enjoy his/her/its slavery (oh, but they will never use this
>> word...) is still a slave.  "Oh, brave new world!"
>>     
>
> ### The condition of slavery may be said to exist when the legitimate
> self-ownership interest of a person is infringed on by violent means.
> A self-ownership interest is created when a sentient process develops
> a desire to control its own goal-oriented behavior. If a sentient
> process never develops a desire to control its destiny, it does not
> own itself, and therefore it is legitimate for another process to take
> control. If no self-ownership interest is infringed on, slavery cannot
> exist. Are you following the reasoning? Since my laptop does not (to
> the best of my knowledge) have a desire to control its destiny, it's
> perfectly fine for me to use it as I see fit, no matter how smart the
> laptop is (say it's a 2029 model, last upgrade before the singularity,
> with 1000 petaflops and 64 000 cores). The same applies to biological
> constructs.
>
> Rafal
>
>   
Right on, Rafal. No matter how self-aware something is, if it can't 
claim ownership of itself, it is OK to own it. My dog has a mind of his 
own from time to time and no one ever complains when he brings me the 
paper. Why? Because he's been conditioned to choose to get the paper. 
He's happy to do it. SO far I've never been called a slave driver. 
People think it's neat. :-)

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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Mon Apr 21 19:54:59 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:54:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804181816vf962ce0j30f794658426e8d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804181816vf962ce0j30f794658426e8d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480CF113.3030705@insightbb.com>

I ran into my own tissue concoction talking back to me recently. The 
other day my teen daughter decided not to clean her room and stated that 
she never asked to be born and that she resents all the stuff we make 
her do (which is almost nothing but she sees it otherwise). Of course 
she can claim self-ownership, which means I can't harm her. Nor would I 
want to. But I was quick to point out that if I so desired, I could 
still make her work for me in the office without paying her minimum 
wage. Does this mean our children qualify as legal slaves?

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>   
>>  The principle is the same. If I concoct some tissue in my own lab
>>  that turns out to be sentient, well, then, IMO it's mine and I can
>>  do with it what I please. Who are you and the goons to come
>>  into my place and stop me?
>>     
>
> ### Here we still disagree, Lee, after all these years :)
>
> If your concoction emails me that you didn't ask it for permission to
> use it and it resents your infringement on its self-ownership, I might
> consider offering it protection services, assuming it were willing to
> pay for the goons.
>
> We'll see who's goons are tougher.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 20:00:22 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:00:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NY Times: Message Machine
Message-ID: <29666bf30804211300jbb73e7r206a3b9927202b5d@mail.gmail.com>

Every so often, I like to post a piece about being careful about PR
and its dangers, which are especially perilous in an age of media
saturation.  While this story is not particularly H+, extropic or
whatever, it is important to realize that if the powers that be are
manipulating you about one thing, dollars to donuts some group is
doing it on other subjects we do care about as H+ers, like medical
research, space, alternative energy or existential threats -- anywhere
a buck can be made.

In this case, the NY Times finally has proof that those military TV
pundits spouting about the Iraq War were reading from scripts straight
from the Pentagon.  However, even more egregious, the pundits are
actually lobbyists/executives/board members for military contractors
making a mint with this conflict.  Sell the war, cash your check.
Cha-ching!

And it only took the Times five years to figure that one out.

I can only hope that the members of these lists learn to regard their
media with more scrutiny and suspicion than the people making it.
You'll need all the practice you can get when they start piping the
media directly into your head.

PJ

April 20, 2008
Message Machine
Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon's Hidden Hand
By DAVID BARSTOW
In the summer of 2005, the Bush administration confronted a fresh wave
of criticism over Guant?namo Bay. The detention center had just been
branded "the gulag of our times" by Amnesty International, there were
new allegations of abuse from United Nations human rights experts and
calls were mounting for its closure.

The administration's communications experts responded swiftly. Early
one Friday morning, they put a group of retired military officers on
one of the jets normally used by Vice President Dick Cheney and flew
them to Cuba for a carefully orchestrated tour of Guant?namo.

To the public, these men are members of a familiar fraternity,
presented tens of thousands of times on television and radio as
"military analysts" whose long service has equipped them to give
authoritative and unfettered judgments about the most pressing issues
of the post-Sept. 11 world.

Hidden behind that appearance of objectivity, though, is a Pentagon
information apparatus that has used those analysts in a campaign to
generate favorable news coverage of the administration's wartime
performance, an examination by The New York Times has found.

The effort, which began with the buildup to the Iraq war and continues
to this day, has sought to exploit ideological and military
allegiances, and also a powerful financial dynamic: Most of the
analysts have ties to military contractors vested in the very war
policies they are asked to assess on air.

Those business relationships are hardly ever disclosed to the viewers,
and sometimes not even to the networks themselves. But collectively,
the men on the plane and several dozen other military analysts
represent more than 150 military contractors either as lobbyists,
senior executives, board members or consultants. The companies include
defense heavyweights, but also scores of smaller companies, all part
of a vast assemblage of contractors scrambling for hundreds of
billions in military business generated by the administration's war on
terror. It is a furious competition, one in which inside information
and easy access to senior officials are highly prized.

Records and interviews show how the Bush administration has used its
control over access and information in an effort to transform the
analysts into a kind of media Trojan horse ? an instrument intended to
shape terrorism coverage from inside the major TV and radio networks.

Analysts have been wooed in hundreds of private briefings with senior
military leaders, including officials with significant influence over
contracting and budget matters, records show. They have been taken on
tours of Iraq and given access to classified intelligence. They have
been briefed by officials from the White House, State Department and
Justice Department, including Mr. Cheney, Alberto R. Gonzales and
Stephen J. Hadley.

In turn, members of this group have echoed administration talking
points, sometimes even when they suspected the information was false
or inflated. Some analysts acknowledge they suppressed doubts because
they feared jeopardizing their access.

A few expressed regret for participating in what they regarded as an
effort to dupe the American public with propaganda dressed as
independent military analysis.

"It was them saying, 'We need to stick our hands up your back and move
your mouth for you,' " Robert S. Bevelacqua, a retired Green Beret and
former Fox News analyst, said.

Kenneth Allard, a former NBC military analyst who has taught
information warfare at the National Defense University, said the
campaign amounted to a sophisticated information operation. "This was
a coherent, active policy," he said.

As conditions in Iraq deteriorated, Mr. Allard recalled, he saw a
yawning gap between what analysts were told in private briefings and
what subsequent inquiries and books later revealed.

"Night and day," Mr. Allard said, "I felt we'd been hosed."

The Pentagon defended its relationship with military analysts, saying
they had been given only factual information about the war. "The
intent and purpose of this is nothing other than an earnest attempt to
inform the American people," Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman,
said.

It was, Mr. Whitman added, "a bit incredible" to think retired
military officers could be "wound up" and turned into "puppets of the
Defense Department."

Many analysts strongly denied that they had either been co-opted or
had allowed outside business interests to affect their on-air
comments, and some have used their platforms to criticize the conduct
of the war. Several, like Jeffrey D. McCausland, a CBS military
analyst and defense industry lobbyist, said they kept their networks
informed of their outside work and recused themselves from coverage
that touched on business interests.

"I'm not here representing the administration," Dr. McCausland said.

Some network officials, meanwhile, acknowledged only a limited
understanding of their analysts' interactions with the administration.
They said that while they were sensitive to potential conflicts of
interest, they did not hold their analysts to the same ethical
standards as their news employees regarding outside financial
interests. The onus is on their analysts to disclose conflicts, they
said. And whatever the contributions of military analysts, they also
noted the many network journalists who have covered the war for years
in all its complexity.

Five years into the Iraq war, most details of the architecture and
execution of the Pentagon's campaign have never been disclosed. But
The Times successfully sued the Defense Department to gain access to
8,000 pages of e-mail messages, transcripts and records describing
years of private briefings, trips to Iraq and Guant?namo and an
extensive Pentagon talking points operation.

These records reveal a symbiotic relationship where the usual dividing
lines between government and journalism have been obliterated.

Internal Pentagon documents repeatedly refer to the military analysts
as "message force multipliers" or "surrogates" who could be counted on
to deliver administration "themes and messages" to millions of
Americans "in the form of their own opinions."

Though many analysts are paid network consultants, making $500 to
$1,000 per appearance, in Pentagon meetings they sometimes spoke as if
they were operating behind enemy lines, interviews and transcripts
show. Some offered the Pentagon tips on how to outmaneuver the
networks, or as one analyst put it to Donald H. Rumsfeld, then the
defense secretary, "the Chris Matthewses and the Wolf Blitzers of the
world." Some warned of planned stories or sent the Pentagon copies of
their correspondence with network news executives. Many ? although
certainly not all ? faithfully echoed talking points intended to
counter critics.

"Good work," Thomas G. McInerney, a retired Air Force general,
consultant and Fox News analyst, wrote to the Pentagon after receiving
fresh talking points in late 2006. "We will use it."

Again and again, records show, the administration has enlisted
analysts as a rapid reaction force to rebut what it viewed as critical
news coverage, some of it by the networks' own Pentagon
correspondents. For example, when news articles revealed that troops
in Iraq were dying because of inadequate body armor, a senior Pentagon
official wrote to his colleagues: "I think our analysts ? properly
armed ? can push back in that arena."

The documents released by the Pentagon do not show any quid pro quo
between commentary and contracts. But some analysts said they had used
the special access as a marketing and networking opportunity or as a
window into future business possibilities.

John C. Garrett is a retired Army colonel and unpaid analyst for Fox
News TV and radio. He is also a lobbyist at Patton Boggs who helps
firms win Pentagon contracts, including in Iraq. In promotional
materials, he states that as a military analyst he "is privy to weekly
access and briefings with the secretary of defense, chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff and other high level policy makers in the
administration." One client told investors that Mr. Garrett's special
access and decades of experience helped him "to know in advance ? and
in detail ? how best to meet the needs" of the Defense Department and
other agencies.

In interviews Mr. Garrett said there was an inevitable overlap between
his dual roles. He said he had gotten "information you just otherwise
would not get," from the briefings and three Pentagon-sponsored trips
to Iraq. He also acknowledged using this access and information to
identify opportunities for clients. "You can't help but look for
that," he said, adding, "If you know a capability that would fill a
niche or need, you try to fill it. "That's good for everybody."

At the same time, in e-mail messages to the Pentagon, Mr. Garrett
displayed an eagerness to be supportive with his television and radio
commentary. "Please let me know if you have any specific points you
want covered or that you would prefer to downplay," he wrote in
January 2007, before President Bush went on TV to describe the surge
strategy in Iraq.

Conversely, the administration has demonstrated that there is a price
for sustained criticism, many analysts said. "You'll lose all access,"
Dr. McCausland said.

With a majority of Americans calling the war a mistake despite all
administration attempts to sway public opinion, the Pentagon has
focused in the last couple of years on cultivating in particular
military analysts frequently seen and heard in conservative news
outlets, records and interviews show.

Some of these analysts were on the mission to Cuba on June 24, 2005 ?
the first of six such Guant?namo trips ? which was designed to
mobilize analysts against the growing perception of Guant?namo as an
international symbol of inhumane treatment. On the flight to Cuba, for
much of the day at Guant?namo and on the flight home that night,
Pentagon officials briefed the 10 or so analysts on their key messages
? how much had been spent improving the facility, the abuse endured by
guards, the extensive rights afforded detainees.

The results came quickly. The analysts went on TV and radio, decrying
Amnesty International, criticizing calls to close the facility and
asserting that all detainees were treated humanely.

"The impressions that you're getting from the media and from the
various pronouncements being made by people who have not been here in
my opinion are totally false," Donald W. Shepperd, a retired Air Force
general, reported live on CNN by phone from Guant?namo that same
afternoon.

The next morning, Montgomery Meigs, a retired Army general and NBC
analyst, appeared on "Today." "There's been over $100 million of new
construction," he reported. "The place is very professionally run."

Within days, transcripts of the analysts' appearances were circulated
to senior White House and Pentagon officials, cited as evidence of
progress in the battle for hearts and minds at home.

Charting the Campaign

By early 2002, detailed planning for a possible Iraq invasion was
under way, yet an obstacle loomed. Many Americans, polls showed, were
uneasy about invading a country with no clear connection to the Sept.
11 attacks. Pentagon and White House officials believed the military
analysts could play a crucial role in helping overcome this
resistance.

Torie Clarke, the former public relations executive who oversaw the
Pentagon's dealings with the analysts as assistant secretary of
defense for public affairs, had come to her job with distinct ideas
about achieving what she called "information dominance." In a
spin-saturated news culture, she argued, opinion is swayed most by
voices perceived as authoritative and utterly independent.

And so even before Sept. 11, she built a system within the Pentagon to
recruit "key influentials" ? movers and shakers from all walks who
with the proper ministrations might be counted on to generate support
for Mr. Rumsfeld's priorities.

In the months after Sept. 11, as every network rushed to retain its
own all-star squad of retired military officers, Ms. Clarke and her
staff sensed a new opportunity. To Ms. Clarke's team, the military
analysts were the ultimate "key influential" ? authoritative, most of
them decorated war heroes, all reaching mass audiences.

The analysts, they noticed, often got more airtime than network
reporters, and they were not merely explaining the capabilities of
Apache helicopters. They were framing how viewers ought to interpret
events. What is more, while the analysts were in the news media, they
were not of the news media. They were military men, many of them
ideologically in sync with the administration's neoconservative brain
trust, many of them important players in a military industry
anticipating large budget increases to pay for an Iraq war.

Even analysts with no defense industry ties, and no fondness for the
administration, were reluctant to be critical of military leaders,
many of whom were friends. "It is very hard for me to criticize the
United States Army," said William L. Nash, a retired Army general and
ABC analyst. "It is my life."

Other administrations had made sporadic, small-scale attempts to build
relationships with the occasional military analyst. But these were
trifling compared with what Ms. Clarke's team had in mind. Don Meyer,
an aide to Ms. Clarke, said a strategic decision was made in 2002 to
make the analysts the main focus of the public relations push to
construct a case for war. Journalists were secondary. "We didn't want
to rely on them to be our primary vehicle to get information out," Mr.
Meyer said.

The Pentagon's regular press office would be kept separate from the
military analysts. The analysts would instead be catered to by a small
group of political appointees, with the point person being Brent T.
Krueger, another senior aide to Ms. Clarke. The decision recalled
other administration tactics that subverted traditional journalism.
Federal agencies, for example, have paid columnists to write favorably
about the administration. They have distributed to local TV stations
hundreds of fake news segments with fawning accounts of administration
accomplishments. The Pentagon itself has made covert payments to Iraqi
newspapers to publish coalition propaganda.

Rather than complain about the "media filter," each of these
techniques simply converted the filter into an amplifier. This time,
Mr. Krueger said, the military analysts would in effect be "writing
the op-ed" for the war.

Assembling the Team

>From the start, interviews show, the White House took a keen interest
in which analysts had been identified by the Pentagon, requesting
lists of potential recruits, and suggesting names. Ms. Clarke's team
wrote summaries describing their backgrounds, business affiliations
and where they stood on the war.

"Rumsfeld ultimately cleared off on all invitees," said Mr. Krueger,
who left the Pentagon in 2004. (Through a spokesman, Mr. Rumsfeld
declined to comment for this article.)

Over time, the Pentagon recruited more than 75 retired officers,
although some participated only briefly or sporadically. The largest
contingent was affiliated with Fox News, followed by NBC and CNN, the
other networks with 24-hour cable outlets. But analysts from CBS and
ABC were included, too. Some recruits, though not on any network
payroll, were influential in other ways ? either because they were
sought out by radio hosts, or because they often published op-ed
articles or were quoted in magazines, Web sites and newspapers. At
least nine of them have written op-ed articles for The Times.

The group was heavily represented by men involved in the business of
helping companies win military contracts. Several held senior
positions with contractors that gave them direct responsibility for
winning new Pentagon business. James Marks, a retired Army general and
analyst for CNN from 2004 to 2007, pursued military and intelligence
contracts as a senior executive with McNeil Technologies. Still others
held board positions with military firms that gave them responsibility
for government business. General McInerney, the Fox analyst, for
example, sits on the boards of several military contractors, including
Nortel Government Solutions, a supplier of communication networks.

Several were defense industry lobbyists, such as Dr. McCausland, who
works at Buchanan Ingersoll & Rooney, a major lobbying firm where he
is director of a national security team that represents several
military contractors. "We offer clients access to key decision
makers," Dr. McCausland's team promised on the firm's Web site.

Dr. McCausland was not the only analyst making this pledge. Another
was Joseph W. Ralston, a retired Air Force general. Soon after signing
on with CBS, General Ralston was named vice chairman of the Cohen
Group, a consulting firm headed by a former defense secretary, William
Cohen, himself now a "world affairs" analyst for CNN. "The Cohen Group
knows that getting to 'yes' in the aerospace and defense market ?
whether in the United States or abroad ? requires that companies have
a thorough, up-to-date understanding of the thinking of government
decision makers," the company tells prospective clients on its Web
site.

There were also ideological ties.

Two of NBC's most prominent analysts, Barry R. McCaffrey and the late
Wayne A. Downing, were on the advisory board of the Committee for the
Liberation of Iraq, an advocacy group created with White House
encouragement in 2002 to help make the case for ousting Saddam
Hussein. Both men also had their own consulting firms and sat on the
boards of major military contractors.

Many also shared with Mr. Bush's national security team a belief that
pessimistic war coverage broke the nation's will to win in Vietnam,
and there was a mutual resolve not to let that happen with this war.

This was a major theme, for example, with Paul E. Vallely, a Fox News
analyst from 2001 to 2007. A retired Army general who had specialized
in psychological warfare, Mr. Vallely co-authored a paper in 1980 that
accused American news organizations of failing to defend the nation
from "enemy" propaganda during Vietnam.

"We lost the war ? not because we were outfought, but because we were
out Psyoped," he wrote. He urged a radically new approach to
psychological operations in future wars ? taking aim at not just
foreign adversaries but domestic audiences, too. He called his
approach "MindWar" ? using network TV and radio to "strengthen our
national will to victory."

The Selling of the War

>From their earliest sessions with the military analysts, Mr. Rumsfeld
and his aides spoke as if they were all part of the same team.

In interviews, participants described a powerfully seductive
environment ? the uniformed escorts to Mr. Rumsfeld's private
conference room, the best government china laid out, the embossed name
cards, the blizzard of PowerPoints, the solicitations of advice and
counsel, the appeals to duty and country, the warm thank you notes
from the secretary himself.

"Oh, you have no idea," Mr. Allard said, describing the effect.
"You're back. They listen to you. They listen to what you say on TV."
It was, he said, "psyops on steroids" ? a nuanced exercise in
influence through flattery and proximity. "It's not like it's, 'We'll
pay you $500 to get our story out,' " he said. "It's more subtle."

The access came with a condition. Participants were instructed not to
quote their briefers directly or otherwise describe their contacts
with the Pentagon.

In the fall and winter leading up to the invasion, the Pentagon armed
its analysts with talking points portraying Iraq as an urgent threat.
The basic case became a familiar mantra: Iraq possessed chemical and
biological weapons, was developing nuclear weapons, and might one day
slip some to Al Qaeda; an invasion would be a relatively quick and
inexpensive "war of liberation."

At the Pentagon, members of Ms. Clarke's staff marveled at the way the
analysts seamlessly incorporated material from talking points and
briefings as if it was their own.

"You could see that they were messaging," Mr. Krueger said. "You could
see they were taking verbatim what the secretary was saying or what
the technical specialists were saying. And they were saying it over
and over and over." Some days, he added, "We were able to click on
every single station and every one of our folks were up there
delivering our message. You'd look at them and say, 'This is working.'
"

On April 12, 2003, with major combat almost over, Mr. Rumsfeld drafted
a memorandum to Ms. Clarke. "Let's think about having some of the
folks who did such a good job as talking heads in after this thing is
over," he wrote.

By summer, though, the first signs of the insurgency had emerged.
Reports from journalists based in Baghdad were increasingly suffused
with the imagery of mayhem.

The Pentagon did not have to search far for a counterweight.

It was time, an internal Pentagon strategy memorandum urged, to
"re-energize surrogates and message-force multipliers," starting with
the military analysts.

The memorandum led to a proposal to take analysts on a tour of Iraq in
September 2003, timed to help overcome the sticker shock from Mr.
Bush's request for $87 billion in emergency war financing.

The group included four analysts from Fox News, one each from CNN and
ABC, and several research-group luminaries whose opinion articles
appear regularly in the nation's op-ed pages.

The trip invitation promised a look at "the real situation on the
ground in Iraq."

The situation, as described in scores of books, was deteriorating. L.
Paul Bremer III, then the American viceroy in Iraq, wrote in his
memoir, "My Year in Iraq," that he had privately warned the White
House that the United States had "about half the number of soldiers we
needed here."

"We're up against a growing and sophisticated threat," Mr. Bremer
recalled telling the president during a private White House dinner.

That dinner took place on Sept. 24, while the analysts were touring Iraq.

Yet these harsh realities were elided, or flatly contradicted, during
the official presentations for the analysts, records show. The
itinerary, scripted to the minute, featured brief visits to a model
school, a few refurbished government buildings, a center for women's
rights, a mass grave and even the gardens of Babylon.

Mostly the analysts attended briefings. These sessions, records show,
spooled out an alternative narrative, depicting an Iraq bursting with
political and economic energy, its security forces blossoming. On the
crucial question of troop levels, the briefings echoed the White House
line: No reinforcements were needed. The "growing and sophisticated
threat" described by Mr. Bremer was instead depicted as degraded,
isolated and on the run.

"We're winning," a briefing document proclaimed.

One trip participant, General Nash of ABC, said some briefings were so
clearly "artificial" that he joked to another group member that they
were on "the George Romney memorial trip to Iraq," a reference to Mr.
Romney's infamous claim that American officials had "brainwashed" him
into supporting the Vietnam War during a tour there in 1965, while he
was governor of Michigan.

But if the trip pounded the message of progress, it also represented a
business opportunity: direct access to the most senior civilian and
military leaders in Iraq and Kuwait, including many with a say in how
the president's $87 billion would be spent. It also was a chance to
gather inside information about the most pressing needs confronting
the American mission: the acute shortages of "up-armored" Humvees; the
billions to be spent building military bases; the urgent need for
interpreters; and the ambitious plans to train Iraq's security forces.

Information and access of this nature had undeniable value for trip
participants like William V. Cowan and Carlton A. Sherwood.

Mr. Cowan, a Fox analyst and retired Marine colonel, was the chief
executive of a new military firm, the wvc3 Group. Mr. Sherwood was its
executive vice president. At the time, the company was seeking
contracts worth tens of millions to supply body armor and
counterintelligence services in Iraq. In addition, wvc3 Group had a
written agreement to use its influence and connections to help tribal
leaders in Al Anbar Province win reconstruction contracts from the
coalition.

"Those sheiks wanted access to the C.P.A.," Mr. Cowan recalled in an
interview, referring to the Coalition Provisional Authority.

Mr. Cowan said he pleaded their cause during the trip. "I tried to
push hard with some of Bremer's people to engage these people of Al
Anbar," he said.

Back in Washington, Pentagon officials kept a nervous eye on how the
trip translated on the airwaves. Uncomfortable facts had bubbled up
during the trip. One briefer, for example, mentioned that the Army was
resorting to packing inadequately armored Humvees with sandbags and
Kevlar blankets. Descriptions of the Iraqi security forces were
withering. "They can't shoot, but then again, they don't," one officer
told them, according to one participant's notes.

"I saw immediately in 2003 that things were going south," General
Vallely, one of the Fox analysts on the trip, recalled in an interview
with The Times.

The Pentagon, though, need not have worried.

"You can't believe the progress," General Vallely told Alan Colmes of
Fox News upon his return. He predicted the insurgency would be "down
to a few numbers" within months.

"We could not be more excited, more pleased," Mr. Cowan told Greta Van
Susteren of Fox News. There was barely a word about armor shortages or
corrupt Iraqi security forces. And on the key strategic question of
the moment ? whether to send more troops ? the analysts were
unanimous.

"I am so much against adding more troops," General Shepperd said on CNN.

Access and Influence

Inside the Pentagon and at the White House, the trip was viewed as a
masterpiece in the management of perceptions, not least because it
gave fuel to complaints that "mainstream" journalists were ignoring
the good news in Iraq.

"We're hitting a home run on this trip," a senior Pentagon official
wrote in an e-mail message to Richard B. Myers and Peter Pace, then
chairman and vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Its success only intensified the Pentagon's campaign. The pace of
briefings accelerated. More trips were organized. Eventually the
effort involved officials from Washington to Baghdad to Kabul to
Guant?namo and back to Tampa, Fla., the headquarters of United States
Central Command.

The scale reflected strong support from the top. When officials in
Iraq were slow to organize another trip for analysts, a Pentagon
official fired off an e-mail message warning that the trips "have the
highest levels of visibility" at the White House and urging them to
get moving before Lawrence Di Rita, one of Mr. Rumsfeld's closest
aides, "picks up the phone and starts calling the 4-stars."

Mr. Di Rita, no longer at the Defense Department, said in an interview
that a "conscious decision" was made to rely on the military analysts
to counteract "the increasingly negative view of the war" coming from
journalists in Iraq. The analysts, he said, generally had "a more
supportive view" of the administration and the war, and the
combination of their TV platforms and military cachet made them ideal
for rebutting critical coverage of issues like troop morale, treatment
of detainees, inadequate equipment or poorly trained Iraqi security
forces. "On those issues, they were more likely to be seen as credible
spokesmen," he said.

For analysts with military industry ties, the attention brought access
to a widening circle of influential officials beyond the contacts they
had accumulated over the course of their careers.

Charles T. Nash, a Fox military analyst and retired Navy captain, is a
consultant who helps small companies break into the military market.
Suddenly, he had entree to a host of senior military leaders, many of
whom he had never met. It was, he said, like being embedded with the
Pentagon leadership. "You start to recognize what's most important to
them," he said, adding, "There's nothing like seeing stuff firsthand."

Some Pentagon officials said they were well aware that some analysts
viewed their special access as a business advantage. "Of course we
realized that," Mr. Krueger said. "We weren't na?ve about that."

They also understood the financial relationship between the networks
and their analysts. Many analysts were being paid by the "hit," the
number of times they appeared on TV. The more an analyst could boast
of fresh inside information from high-level Pentagon "sources," the
more hits he could expect. The more hits, the greater his potential
influence in the military marketplace, where several analysts
prominently advertised their network roles.

"They have taken lobbying and the search for contracts to a far higher
level," Mr. Krueger said. "This has been highly honed."

Mr. Di Rita, though, said it never occurred to him that analysts might
use their access to curry favor. Nor, he said, did the Pentagon try to
exploit this dynamic. "That's not something that ever crossed my
mind," he said. In any event, he argued, the analysts and the networks
were the ones responsible for any ethical complications. "We assume
they know where the lines are," he said.

The analysts met personally with Mr. Rumsfeld at least 18 times,
records show, but that was just the beginning. They had dozens more
sessions with the most senior members of his brain trust and access to
officials responsible for managing the billions being spent in Iraq.
Other groups of "key influentials" had meetings, but not nearly as
often as the analysts.

An internal memorandum in 2005 helped explain why. The memorandum,
written by a Pentagon official who had accompanied analysts to Iraq,
said that based on her observations during the trip, the analysts "are
having a greater impact" on network coverage of the military. "They
have now become the go-to guys not only on breaking stories, but they
influence the views on issues," she wrote.

Other branches of the administration also began to make use of the
analysts. Mr. Gonzales, then the attorney general, met with them soon
after news leaked that the government was wiretapping terrorism
suspects in the United States without warrants, Pentagon records show.
When David H. Petraeus was appointed the commanding general in Iraq in
January 2007, one of his early acts was to meet with the analysts.

"We knew we had extraordinary access," said Timur J. Eads, a retired
Army lieutenant colonel and Fox analyst who is vice president of
government relations for Blackbird Technologies, a fast-growing
military contractor.

Like several other analysts, Mr. Eads said he had at times held his
tongue on television for fear that "some four-star could call up and
say, 'Kill that contract.' " For example, he believed Pentagon
officials misled the analysts about the progress of Iraq's security
forces. "I know a snow job when I see one," he said. He did not share
this on TV.

"Human nature," he explained, though he noted other instances when he
was critical.

Some analysts said that even before the war started, they privately
had questions about the justification for the invasion, but were
careful not to express them on air.

Mr. Bevelacqua, then a Fox analyst, was among those invited to a
briefing in early 2003 about Iraq's purported stockpiles of illicit
weapons. He recalled asking the briefer whether the United States had
"smoking gun" proof.

" 'We don't have any hard evidence,' " Mr. Bevelacqua recalled the
briefer replying. He said he and other analysts were alarmed by this
concession. "We are looking at ourselves saying, 'What are we doing?'
"

Another analyst, Robert L. Maginnis, a retired Army lieutenant colonel
who works in the Pentagon for a military contractor, attended the same
briefing and recalled feeling "very disappointed" after being shown
satellite photographs purporting to show bunkers associated with a
hidden weapons program. Mr. Maginnis said he concluded that the
analysts were being "manipulated" to convey a false sense of certainty
about the evidence of the weapons. Yet he and Mr. Bevelacqua and the
other analysts who attended the briefing did not share any misgivings
with the American public.

Mr. Bevelacqua and another Fox analyst, Mr. Cowan, had formed the wvc3
Group, and hoped to win military and national security contracts.

"There's no way I was going to go down that road and get completely
torn apart," Mr. Bevelacqua said. "You're talking about fighting a
huge machine."

Some e-mail messages between the Pentagon and the analysts reveal an
implicit trade of privileged access for favorable coverage. Robert H.
Scales Jr., a retired Army general and analyst for Fox News and
National Public Radio whose consulting company advises several
military firms on weapons and tactics used in Iraq, wanted the
Pentagon to approve high-level briefings for him inside Iraq in 2006.

"Recall the stuff I did after my last visit," he wrote. "I will do the
same this time."

Pentagon Keeps Tabs

As it happened, the analysts' news media appearances were being
closely monitored. The Pentagon paid a private contractor, Omnitec
Solutions, hundreds of thousands of dollars to scour databases for any
trace of the analysts, be it a segment on "The O'Reilly Factor" or an
interview with The Daily Inter Lake in Montana, circulation 20,000.

Omnitec evaluated their appearances using the same tools as corporate
branding experts. One report, assessing the impact of several trips to
Iraq in 2005, offered example after example of analysts echoing
Pentagon themes on all the networks.

"Commentary from all three Iraq trips was extremely positive over
all," the report concluded.

In interviews, several analysts reacted with dismay when told they
were described as reliable "surrogates" in Pentagon documents. And
some asserted that their Pentagon sessions were, as David L. Grange, a
retired Army general and CNN analyst put it, "just upfront
information," while others pointed out, accurately, that they did not
always agree with the administration or each other. "None of us drink
the Kool-Aid," General Scales said.

Likewise, several also denied using their special access for business
gain. "Not related at all," General Shepperd said, pointing out that
many in the Pentagon held CNN "in the lowest esteem."

Still, even the mildest of criticism could draw a challenge. Several
analysts told of fielding telephone calls from displeased defense
officials only minutes after being on the air.

On Aug. 3, 2005, 14 marines died in Iraq. That day, Mr. Cowan, who
said he had grown increasingly uncomfortable with the "twisted version
of reality" being pushed on analysts in briefings, called the Pentagon
to give "a heads-up" that some of his comments on Fox "may not all be
friendly," Pentagon records show. Mr. Rumsfeld's senior aides quickly
arranged a private briefing for him, yet when he told Bill O'Reilly
that the United States was "not on a good glide path right now" in
Iraq, the repercussions were swift.

Mr. Cowan said he was "precipitously fired from the analysts group"
for this appearance. The Pentagon, he wrote in an e-mail message,
"simply didn't like the fact that I wasn't carrying their water." The
next day James T. Conway, then director of operations for the Joint
Chiefs, presided over another conference call with analysts. He urged
them, a transcript shows, not to let the marines' deaths further erode
support for the war.

"The strategic target remains our population," General Conway said.
"We can lose people day in and day out, but they're never going to
beat our military. What they can and will do if they can is strip away
our support. And you guys can help us not let that happen."

"General, I just made that point on the air," an analyst replied.

"Let's work it together, guys," General Conway urged.

The Generals' Revolt

The full dimensions of this mutual embrace were perhaps never clearer
than in April 2006, after several of Mr. Rumsfeld's former generals ?
none of them network military analysts ? went public with devastating
critiques of his wartime performance. Some called for his resignation.

On Friday, April 14, with what came to be called the "Generals'
Revolt" dominating headlines, Mr. Rumsfeld instructed aides to summon
military analysts to a meeting with him early the next week, records
show. When an aide urged a short delay to "give our big guys on the
West Coast a little more time to buy a ticket and get here," Mr.
Rumsfeld's office insisted that "the boss" wanted the meeting fast
"for impact on the current story."

That same day, Pentagon officials helped two Fox analysts, General
McInerney and General Vallely, write an opinion article for The Wall
Street Journal defending Mr. Rumsfeld.

"Starting to write it now," General Vallely wrote to the Pentagon that
afternoon. "Any input for the article," he added a little later, "will
be much appreciated." Mr. Rumsfeld's office quickly forwarded talking
points and statistics to rebut the notion of a spreading revolt.

"Vallely is going to use the numbers," a Pentagon official reported
that afternoon.

The standard secrecy notwithstanding, plans for this session leaked,
producing a front-page story in The Times that Sunday. In
damage-control mode, Pentagon officials scrambled to present the
meeting as routine and directed that communications with analysts be
kept "very formal," records show. "This is very, very sensitive now,"
a Pentagon official warned subordinates.

On Tuesday, April 18, some 17 analysts assembled at the Pentagon with
Mr. Rumsfeld and General Pace, then the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

A transcript of that session, never before disclosed, shows a shared
determination to marginalize war critics and revive public support for
the war.

"I'm an old intel guy," said one analyst. (The transcript omits
speakers' names.) "And I can sum all of this up, unfortunately, with
one word. That is Psyops. Now most people may hear that and they
think, 'Oh my God, they're trying to brainwash.' "

"What are you, some kind of a nut?" Mr. Rumsfeld cut in, drawing
laughter. "You don't believe in the Constitution?"

There was little discussion about the actual criticism pouring forth
from Mr. Rumsfeld's former generals. Analysts argued that opposition
to the war was rooted in perceptions fed by the news media, not
reality. The administration's overall war strategy, they counseled,
was "brilliant" and "very successful."

"Frankly," one participant said, "from a military point of view, the
penalty, 2,400 brave Americans whom we lost, 3,000 in an hour and 15
minutes, is relative."

An analyst said at another point: "This is a wider war. And whether we
have democracy in Iraq or not, it doesn't mean a tinker's damn if we
end up with the result we want, which is a regime over there that's
not a threat to us."

"Yeah," Mr. Rumsfeld said, taking notes.

But winning or not, they bluntly warned, the administration was in
grave political danger so long as most Americans viewed Iraq as a lost
cause. "America hates a loser," one analyst said.

Much of the session was devoted to ways that Mr. Rumsfeld could
reverse the "political tide." One analyst urged Mr. Rumsfeld to "just
crush these people," and assured him that "most of the gentlemen at
the table" would enthusiastically support him if he did.

"You are the leader," the analyst told Mr. Rumsfeld. "You are our guy."

At another point, an analyst made a suggestion: "In one of your
speeches you ought to say, 'Everybody stop for a minute and imagine an
Iraq ruled by Zarqawi.' And then you just go down the list and say,
'All right, we've got oil, money, sovereignty, access to the
geographic center of gravity of the Middle East, blah, blah, blah.' If
you can just paint a mental picture for Joe America to say, 'Oh my
God, I can't imagine a world like that.' "

Even as they assured Mr. Rumsfeld that they stood ready to help in
this public relations offensive, the analysts sought guidance on what
they should cite as the next "milestone" that would, as one analyst
put it, "keep the American people focused on the idea that we're
moving forward to a positive end." They placed particular emphasis on
the growing confrontation with Iran.

"When you said 'long war,' you changed the psyche of the American
people to expect this to be a generational event," an analyst said.
"And again, I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job..."

"Get in line," Mr. Rumsfeld interjected.

The meeting ended and Mr. Rumsfeld, appearing pleased and relaxed,
took the entire group into a small study and showed off treasured
keepsakes from his life, several analysts recalled.

Soon after, analysts hit the airwaves. The Omnitec monitoring reports,
circulated to more than 80 officials, confirmed that analysts repeated
many of the Pentagon's talking points: that Mr. Rumsfeld consulted
"frequently and sufficiently" with his generals; that he was not
"overly concerned" with the criticisms; that the meeting focused "on
more important topics at hand," including the next milestone in Iraq,
the formation of a new government.

Days later, Mr. Rumsfeld wrote a memorandum distilling their
collective guidance into bullet points. Two were underlined:

"Focus on the Global War on Terror ? not simply Iraq. The wider war ?
the long war."

"Link Iraq to Iran. Iran is the concern. If we fail in Iraq or
Afghanistan, it will help Iran."

But if Mr. Rumsfeld found the session instructive, at least one
participant, General Nash, the ABC analyst, was repulsed.

"I walked away from that session having total disrespect for my fellow
commentators, with perhaps one or two exceptions," he said.

View From the Networks

Two weeks ago General Petraeus took time out from testifying before
Congress about Iraq for a conference call with military analysts.

Mr. Garrett, the Fox analyst and Patton Boggs lobbyist, said he told
General Petraeus during the call to "keep up the great work."

"Hey," Mr. Garrett said in an interview, "anything we can do to help."

For the moment, though, because of heavy election coverage and general
war fatigue, military analysts are not getting nearly as much TV time,
and the networks have trimmed their rosters of analysts. The
conference call with General Petraeus, for example, produced little in
the way of immediate coverage.

Still, almost weekly the Pentagon continues to conduct briefings with
selected military analysts. Many analysts said network officials were
only dimly aware of these interactions. The networks, they said, have
little grasp of how often they meet with senior officials, or what is
discussed.

"I don't think NBC was even aware we were participating," said Rick
Francona, a longtime military analyst for the network.

Some networks publish biographies on their Web sites that describe
their analysts' military backgrounds and, in some cases, give at least
limited information about their business ties. But many analysts also
said the networks asked few questions about their outside business
interests, the nature of their work or the potential for that work to
create conflicts of interest. "None of that ever happened," said Mr.
Allard, an NBC analyst until 2006.

"The worst conflict of interest was no interest."

Mr. Allard and other analysts said their network handlers also raised
no objections when the Defense Department began paying their
commercial airfare for Pentagon-sponsored trips to Iraq ? a clear
ethical violation for most news organizations.

CBS News declined to comment on what it knew about its military
analysts' business affiliations or what steps it took to guard against
potential conflicts.

NBC News also declined to discuss its procedures for hiring and
monitoring military analysts. The network issued a short statement:
"We have clear policies in place to assure that the people who appear
on our air have been appropriately vetted and that nothing in their
profile would lead to even a perception of a conflict of interest."

Jeffrey W. Schneider, a spokesman for ABC, said that while the
network's military consultants were not held to the same ethical rules
as its full-time journalists, they were expected to keep the network
informed about any outside business entanglements. "We make it clear
to them we expect them to keep us closely apprised," he said.

A spokeswoman for Fox News said executives "refused to participate" in
this article.

CNN requires its military analysts to disclose in writing all outside
sources of income. But like the other networks, it does not provide
its military analysts with the kind of written, specific ethical
guidelines it gives its full-time employees for avoiding real or
apparent conflicts of interest.

Yet even where controls exist, they have sometimes proven porous.

CNN, for example, said it was unaware for nearly three years that one
of its main military analysts, General Marks, was deeply involved in
the business of seeking government contracts, including contracts
related to Iraq.

General Marks was hired by CNN in 2004, about the time he took a
management position at McNeil Technologies, where his job was to
pursue military and intelligence contracts. As required, General Marks
disclosed that he received income from McNeil Technologies. But the
disclosure form did not require him to describe what his job entailed,
and CNN acknowledges it failed to do additional vetting.

"We did not ask Mr. Marks the follow-up questions we should have," CNN
said in a written statement.

In an interview, General Marks said it was no secret at CNN that his
job at McNeil Technologies was about winning contracts. "I mean,
that's what McNeil does," he said.

CNN, however, said it did not know the nature of McNeil's military
business or what General Marks did for the company. If he was bidding
on Pentagon contracts, CNN said, that should have disqualified him
from being a military analyst for the network. But in the summer and
fall of 2006, even as he was regularly asked to comment on conditions
in Iraq, General Marks was working intensively on bidding for a $4.6
billion contract to provide thousands of translators to United States
forces in Iraq. In fact, General Marks was made president of the
McNeil spin-off that won the huge contract in December 2006.

General Marks said his work on the contract did not affect his
commentary on CNN. "I've got zero challenge separating myself from a
business interest," he said.

But CNN said it had no idea about his role in the contract until July
2007, when it reviewed his most recent disclosure form, submitted
months earlier, and finally made inquiries about his new job.

"We saw the extent of his dealings and determined at that time we
should end our relationship with him," CNN said.


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Mon Apr 21 20:16:30 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:16:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <480CF113.3030705@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804181816vf962ce0j30f794658426e8d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<480CF113.3030705@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <480CF61E.8010100@insightbb.com>


I apologize for the top-posting. I wish I knew how I did that.


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 20:20:53 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:20:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] LA Times and NY Times: Expelled
Message-ID: <29666bf30804211320j1d5eab33rf355d0f77e0654c7@mail.gmail.com>

I had a good laugh this weekend when I saw the newspaper ads for
"Expelled".  The only "critics" they could drum up to promote it were
Rush Limbaugh and a guy who works for the Washington Times, an
ultra-right wing paper owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

The whole thing just makes me want to take a shower to rid myself of the filth.

PJ

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-expelled18apr18,0,5576513.story

>From the Los Angeles Times
MOVIE REVIEW
'Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed'
By Mark Olsen
Special to The Times

April 18, 2008

Someday, perhaps, it will be possible to look back on "Expelled: No
Intelligence Allowed" as a relic and reminder of the rhetorical logic
employed during the era of George W. Bush. Until then, it should be
seen simply as a tiresome ideological bludgeon, an attempt to deceive
audiences into believing it is one thing when it is, in fact, quite
another.

Entertainer, pitchman and political commentator Ben Stein begins the
film by intoning that there is a growing conspiracy within the
academic and scientific communities blocking out proponents of
"intelligent design" as a means to explain the origins of life and
human development in favor of lock step enforcement of Darwinist
theories of evolution.

By setting the argument up in this way, one which is never fully
pursued or proven, Stein has, of course, attempted to utilize a
textbook Karl Rove-ian tactic to "reframe" the discussion, putting it
in terms by which his side seems the valiant underdog, suppressed and
belittled by its opponent, while turning notions of right and wrong,
freedom of speech and even the meaning of science upside down.

A movie review is, of course, not really the forum for debating the
ins, outs and what-have-yous of intelligent design, but it certainly
can be said here that if a film like "Expelled" is meant to be the
vanguard action for turning public opinion, the movement has a long,
long road ahead.

Directed by Nathan Frankowski and co-written by Stein and Kevin
Miller, the film follows -- gamely but charmlessly -- the Michael
Moore playbook, with its hapless everyman guide, ironic use of
antiquated educational films and even showing host and crew
half-heartedly kicked out of the Smithsonian.

The film quite pointedly never particularly makes the case for
intelligent design, also never fully explaining how the concept is
not, as its detractors would have it, simply shoehorning a space for
faith-based creationism within the boundaries of science.

All this is without even touching on the most risible sections of the
film, in which Stein visits a Nazi sanitarium and concentration camp,
attempting to draw a line from Darwin to Hitler to Stalin to (really)
John Lennon.

In some ways, "Expelled" is itself an afterthought, a formal necessity
toward the ultimate aim of mobilizing and propagating a specific
agenda.

As a work of nonfiction filmmaking it is a sham and as agitprop it is
too flimsy to strike any serious blows.

"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed." MPAA rating: PG for thematic
material, some disturbing images, brief smoking. In general release.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/movies/18expe.html?ref=movies
NY Times
April 18, 2008
Resentment Over Darwin Evolves Into a Documentary

By JEANNETTE CATSOULIS
Published: April 18, 2008

One of the sleaziest documentaries to arrive in a very long time,
"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" is a conspiracy-theory rant
masquerading as investigative inquiry.

Positing the theory of intelligent design as a valid scientific
hypothesis, the film frames the refusal of "big science" to agree as
nothing less than an assault on free speech. Interviewees, including
the scientist Richard Sternberg, claim that questioning Darwinism led
to their expulsion from the scientific fold (the film relies
extensively on the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy ? after this,
therefore because of this), while our genial audience surrogate, the
actor and multihyphenate Ben Stein, nods sympathetically. (Mr. Stein
is also a freelance columnist who writes Everybody's Business for The
New York Times.)

Prominent evolutionary biologists, like the author and Oxford
professor Richard Dawkins ? accurately identified on screen as an
"atheist" ? are provided solely to construct, in cleverly edited
slices, an inevitable connection between Darwinism and godlessness.
Blithely ignoring the vital distinction between social and scientific
Darwinism, the film links evolution theory to fascism (as well as
abortion, euthanasia and eugenics), shamelessly invoking the Holocaust
with black-and-white film of Nazi gas chambers and mass graves.

Every few minutes familiar ? and ideologically unrelated ? images
interrupt the talking heads: a fist-shaking Nikita S. Khrushchev;
Charlton Heston being subdued by a water hose in "Planet of the Apes."
This is not argument, it's circus, a distraction from the film's
contempt for precision and intellectual rigor. This goes further than
a willful misunderstanding of the scientific method. The film
suggests, for example, that Dr. Sternberg lost his job at the
Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History because of
intellectual discrimination but neglects to inform us that he was
actually not an employee but rather an unpaid research associate who
had completed his three-year term.

Mixing physical apples and metaphysical oranges at every turn
"Expelled" is an unprincipled propaganda piece that insults believers
and nonbelievers alike. In its fudging, eliding and refusal to define
terms, the movie proves that the only expulsion here is of reason
itself.

"Expelled" is rated PG (Parental guidance suggested). It has smoking
guns and drunken logic.


From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 21 20:41:53 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:41:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS2BA2A49EF98E2F73D16568EE10@phx.gbl>

An interesting topic. I just have to add something to it. I've seen several most astonishing thoughts about this. The feeling process in us, if I may call it that, is due to very complex phenomena in our brain and all through the body. Be it chemical or electrical in nature. (Next year I'll learn a lot more about some of them...) If you think of it like that, it is just a mass of currents running through the body, quite chaotic. To understand these would mean a new beginning in science, quite evidently. Now, to build them into computers seems dubious to me. Would it really be beneficial? As for humans, I consider emotions an inseparable part of our self and seen from this angle it is not a chaos but a mass of currents which direct us right into the unknown (quite philosophic, yuck). For example, love just grabs one by the throat and turns them over. Should a computer be exposed to that? Or how about depression? These are mostly due to the presence or absence of certain chemicals in the brain (and body), as I gather. (Though you can control emotions and thus the amount of these chems through rational thought...I could say so much about that :D) Now, provided we get to know the exact nature of feelings in our system, how would that be simulated? Because if I think of a silicon or whatever computer, I just can't think of anything other than pure simulation. Would that be the same? I think such a computer is of less use than the effort put into making it. And yet somehow human thought, however rational, always has a certain emotional background to it (if we want humanlike AI). After so much talk I come back to my beloved future model, collective consciousness. If plausible, aided by a certain intelligence enhancement, wouldn't that be the best solution (to become posthuman but still remain human in nature)? Please comment on that, I'd be so interested to hear your opinion.

Thomas Pardy
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From godsdice at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 20:54:04 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:54:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Rick writes
>
> > [Keith ] Henson replied:
> >
> > > While information has to be embedded in matter,
> > > the particular material is not important.  It the
> > > pattern of information that makes one person
> > > different from another, not the particular atoms.
>
> which was well said, and is the vast majority view here.
>

So then we have an original  and a copy or copies, but no  subjective
awareness transfer.  This  reminds me of many archived debates.

>
> > This makes me think that:
> >
> > If it is the "pattern", then the information should be
> > readily transferable when uploading, or even
> > duplicatable if one were cloning.
>
> Quite right. Are you beginning to consider that this in
> fact might be the fundamental answer to your query,
> namely that uploading (if carried out according to
> the criteria usually mentioned) would be no more
> disturbing to who you really are than a good night's
> sleep is?
>

Sure, but then I'm still sleeping while the copy is out having a good time.

>
> > Wikipedia: "A pattern of information (or form) is
> > the pattern or content of an instance or piece of
> > information. Many separate pieces of information
> > may share the same form. We can say that those
> > pieces are perfectly correlated or say that they are
> > copies of each other, as in copies of a book."
>
> Thanks for the wiki quote. Yes. That's just how many
> of us look at survival through copies.


 The copy survives but the original bites the big one.Lee

I see where AI and nanotechnology could make the copying work, but it seems
that I, the original, don't change.
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Apr 21 21:00:52 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:00:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] kritarchy
In-Reply-To: <mailman.55.1208792749.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <496746.50091.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Stathis wrote "And from the Wikipedia article on Kritarchy:

"Under kritarchy even courts of law, police forces and other
organizations that look after the day-to-day business of maintaining
law, are denied any power, privilege or immunity that is not in
conformity with natural law.

 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritarchy)

That all sounds fine, but it begs the question, who decides what is
natural law and what if I don't agree with the decision?"

The answer in Somalia's case is simple - The Koran, as dictated by the
all-merciful to his Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). There's a
reason why the one of the biggest power blocks has the word "courts" in
the title

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Courts_Union

This alliance of courts representing different tribes managed to kick
the elected government out of Mogadishu and force them to relocate to
another city 250 miles away. The ICU then got beaten back and lost most
of their territory. The situation is also complicated by the proxy war
between Ethiopia and Eritrea, with different sides being armed by
neighbouring governments.

This is one problem with interesting political systems appearing on
earth - you'll never get a pure expression of the theory in the real
world, because outside factors will intervene. I read on a link from an
extropian website about a plan to create a libertarian haven, and the
no.1 reason people could think about why it would fail is not the
people who lived there arguing, but outside governments deciding to
wage war on drugs/terrorism/money launderers/tax evaders and causing
trouble. 
 This is one of the great hopes of space colonisation - being far
enough apart from your neighbours you might have time to develop in
freedom before politics gets in the way.

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 21 22:02:06 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:02:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Point of emotion
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <322961.17492.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe emotions are optional for toasters, but not for entities with
> more complex cognitive abilities. It's the same argument as for
> consciousness: nature is interested only in behaviour, not internal
> states, so emotions must have some utility or be a byproduct of
> animal-like intelligence.

Are you suggesting that emotions are necessary prerequisite for goal-
oriented cognition? Are not certain psychopathologies like major
depression or schizoid presonality disorder characterized by a lack of
emotion? While depressed people may not be operating well in a social
sense, I don't think one could say that they no longer are capable of
complex thought. While emotions are certainly important motivators in
mating and fighting for monkey status, I am not sure they are of any
benefit in doing unpleasant tasks or tasks of marginal use to natural
selection such as scrubbing public toilets.


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 23:18:54 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:18:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <200804211818.54955.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Monday 21 April 2008, John K Clark wrote:
> To make an upload even sheets a thousand atoms thick would probably
> be vast overkill, and no need to do the entire body, just the brain
> will do.

That's not what Alex was talking about - we already have work re: 
thousands of sheets of atoms for brain scans, such as the connectomics 
project over at Harvard, with the assistance of the recent Allen 
Institute brain maps (for genetic expression - not an upload, but good 
data gathering practice). 

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 23:25:16 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:25:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] kritarchy
In-Reply-To: <496746.50091.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <496746.50091.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200804211825.17032.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Monday 21 April 2008, Tom Nowell wrote:
> Stathis wrote "And from the Wikipedia article on Kritarchy:
>
> "Under kritarchy even courts of law, police forces and other
> organizations that look after the day-to-day business of maintaining
> law, are denied any power, privilege or immunity that is not in
> conformity with natural law.
>
>  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritarchy)
>
> That all sounds fine, but it begs the question, who decides what is
> natural law and what if I don't agree with the decision?"

Natural law is the way of the universe. I have never heard of kritarchy, 
but it looks interesting if this is the case. Ah, nevermind, it's 
about 'natural rights', not actually physics. False positive. :)

>  This is one of the great hopes of space colonisation - being far
> enough apart from your neighbours you might have time to develop in
> freedom before politics gets in the way.

I am wondering how hidden you can be even within the core of the current 
civilizations. Would be an interesting question, and would save time 
with the space development issues. Anonymity has its benefits.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 23:54:40 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:54:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804211654l8afdbd0r3a37ef910e37ff17@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rick Strongitharm <godsdice at gmail.com> wrote:

> I see where AI and nanotechnology could make the copying work, but it seems
> that I, the original, don't change.

The use of "I" indicates the view is subjected.  There is *no* way to
distinguish a perfect copy from the original.  I.e., each one would
view himself/herself as the original "I."  This entire subject was
beaten to death on this mailing list back in the mid to late 80s.
Here is something I wrote over 30 years ago.

   "People have talked about making a copy of themselves and having the copy do
the unpleasant chores.  That's silly.  A good copy would be indistinguishable
from the original right down to desires.  You could neither make a copy to go
visit the stars nor one to stay on Earth that would be happy unless you didn't
care which you did (unlikely) or someone messed with their personalities
(unethical).  In fact, I think it would be unethical to distinguish between
copies (a case where the Golden Rule applies in its strongest form).  The only
case I can see where copies are justified is a situation where a person really
has no preference between two mutually exclusive choices.  The copying process
might best be fixed so as to split the original material in half, so neither of
the individuals coming out of the process would have a better claim to being
"original".  The ethical questions about copying people, reprogramming them,
mapping yourself into faster hardware, and the rights of constructed
personalities is a topic I would like to see getting more serious discussion."

http://www.hackcanada.com/blackcrawl/elctrnic/megascal.txt

And a dozen or so other places on the net.  You might read the discussion here:

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=63&t=1272

You are trying to "teach grandma to suck eggs."  (Google it if you need to.)

Linguistics and religion are both areas of interest here.  A fair
number of us have taken at least one course in the former and the
latter is of considerable theoretical interest in the evolutionary
psychology sense of what is the origin of the trait, i.e., how did it
help the survival of our ancestors?

But before you post on the subject, at least read Pascal Boyer's book
and a few books on evolutionary psychology so you will have the
background.

http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/primer.html

http://www.fathom.com/feature/35533/index.html

And you may need to read The Selfish Gene to have modern evolution
theory background even to read up on EP.

Keith


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 21 23:57:22 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:57:22 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/22 John K Clark <jonkc at att.net>:

>  To make an upload even sheets a thousand atoms thick would probably
>  be vast overkill, and no need to do the entire body, just the brain will do.

How can you be sure about that? Tiny molecules causing tiny changes in
conformation of membrane proteins can make huge differences to
cognition.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From kanzure at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 05:01:26 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (kanzure)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:01:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: A rant on financial obesity and Project Virgle & an
	ironic disclosure :-)
In-Reply-To: <480D617D.4050102@kurtz-fernhout.com>
References: <480D617D.4050102@kurtz-fernhout.com>
Message-ID: <0885851f-4467-48f8-bc56-fec3a090c4ad@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Paul D. Fernhout" <pdfernh... at kurtz-fernhout.com>
Date: Apr 21, 10:54?pm
Subject: A rant on financial obesity and Project Virgle & an ironic
disclosure :-)
To: Project Virgle

For busy executives, the summary from the end: :-)

So what am I really saying?

That we as a society are not going to happily get to Mars or the
Asteroids
or other star systems, or even just fix up Space Ship Earth, until we
come
to see the love of money as the problem, not the solution.

Or as made clear by Iain M. Banks:
?http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/the-culture.html
"Money is a sign of poverty, meaning that money only has a function in
a
scarcity economy, and therefore its existence betrays a pre-abundant
(poor)
society."

And so financial obesity is part of the problem, not the solution.

Do with that insight what you can, even if only in jest next April
1st. :-)

--Paul Fernhout

===========================================

A rant on financial obesity and Project Virgle & an ironic
disclosure :-)

Now, (April 21st) for those few out there still paying attention, is
where
IMHO the original April 1st joke really starts to get weird. Or should
I say
"Wired"? :-)

First, please make sure you are sitting comfortably and have no
beverages in
your mouth you could choke on in case of either laughter or
outrage. :-)

In the interests of up-front disclosure, sooner or later someone savvy
in
social networks will figure out an indirect link between my family
and, say,
a project like this:
? "Son of TIA: Pentagon Surveillance System Is Reborn in Asia"
? ?http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/03/SINGAPORE
? "Un-wired" (a defense of that system and rebuttal of the article)
? ?http://www.cognitive-edge.com/2007/03/unwired.php
? "Welcome to RAHS: Risk Assessment & Horizon Scanning"
? ?http://rahs.org.sg/t2_home.html
? "Video overview"
? ?http://rahs.org.sg/t2_multimedia_rv.html

I know that disclosure may look bad to some. :-(

Or the height of sublime ironic humor to others. :-)

I did warn you to have no beverages in your mouth you could choke
on. :-)

BTW, if you hadn't already figured out that link, maybe you need
better
social network analysis software? :-) And no, don't ask me, I'm too
busy on
OpenVirgle/OSCOMAK, and I don't write that kind of stuff anyway. :-)

And to think Byte rejected a write up of a simulation of self-
replicating
robots I wrote in the 1980s on a Symbolics despite saying it was the
most
interesting and fascinating thing they had seen in a long time but
wasn't
PC-oriented and business-oriented enough for their new (downward :-)
direction. (I think Marshall Brain may have been at a talk I gave on
that
simulation at NCSU. :-)
?http://www.marshallbrain.com/
And now the irony to see this other image actually in print in a
comparable
magazine discussed in a highly critical tone :-( That image was done,
by the
way, using this free and open source unrelated third-party non-
infringing
OpenGL-compatible Java graphics library:
? "jGL 3D Graphics Library for Java"
?http://www.cmlab.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~robin/JavaGL/
Used already in OpenVirgle here: :-)
?http://code.google.com/p/openvirgle/source/browse/trunk/jgl.jar

If it helps restore a little trust, I can say that my wife and I
sincerely
believe that bureaucrats learning to see things from multiple
perspectives
will ultimately be a good thing. A system like that might even have
helped
US intelligence analysts communicate better to the appointed
commander-in-chief and so avoid wasting trillions of dollars and tens
of
thousands of lives for a "preventive" war of choice in Iraq (or soon
perhaps
Iran :-( ). And the parts we had anything to do with are also now used
to do
things like help provide better care to cancer patients and to better
manage
forests. And the larger general ideas there in that video could also
be
applied to designing aspects of space settlements as well (substitute
"designer" for "analyst" in that video. :-)

One new word I learned at IBM Research: "co-opetition". :-)
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coopetition

But, is that also another word for dirty hands or hard ethical
choices? :-(

Also, in partial defense, we did try NASA first a decade ago (like
with the
original idea for OSCOMAK).
?http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/index.htm
But they were too busy running a shuttle to nowhere. :-(
On a tiny budget (relatively speaking). :-(
And I'm not a very good salesperson. :-(

Everybody did get fair warning though, see: :-)
?http://groups.google.com/group/virgle/msg/7bb134f616feed3b
"Har Har! I've never been called a "space pirate" before, but Isaac
Asimov
did once call me a "rotten kid". :-)"

Just remember this when I refuse to confirm or deny anything: :-)
?http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lando_Calrissian
? ? "We go back a long way, Lando and me."
? ? "Can you trust him?"
? ? "No. But he has no love for the Empire, I can tell you that."
? ? -- Han Solo and Leia Organa

Prussian-derived "Empire" starved and gassed relatives to death in
Holland,
and made my mother as a teenager suffer other horrors that some might
feel
worse than death, in part from her ancestry. :-( I think *she* perhaps
did
feel that way about those horrors, and so moved to the USA after WWII
to try
to escape that horrendous past. But as my well traveled (Merchant
Marine)
father said, "Wherever you go, you take yourself along." In the
abundant
USA. my mother spent decades hording food and becoming obese (she had
an old
relative literally die of starvation in her household, although he was
very
sick and weak already when he arrived at her home I heard).
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944

The result of living through extreme scarcity is often hording and
obesity.
I don't want to see that happen again on Mars -- or on Earth. :-(
?http://news.google.com/news?q=food+war

Why should I love Empire and killing and starving people for a cause
whether
it is called "Deutschland", "America", "Profit", "Babylon", "Virgle",
"Capitalism", or even "Zion"? :-(
?http://www.rachelcorriefoundation.org/
Though I certainly have no love for terrorists either, who are mostly
just
the flip side of the same coin with "empire" on the other face IMHO. :-
(
Same with killing and destroying for any "ism":
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankism
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
And as my mother told me, for every German soldier killed in
Rotterdam, ten
townspeople would be grabbed at random and lined up and shot as
collective
punishment:
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
?http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
So killing doesn't work anyhow (at least, when you are not Emperor).
German
culture has progressed far beyond that now, I am glad to see. Maybe
the USA
could learn something from them now, or from others:
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi_(film)
People change and systems change all the time, often with unexpected
quickness:
?"The Optimism of Uncertainty"
?http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040920/zinn
Still, when all you have is a military, every problem looks like a
war:
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
Alternative (at least as a first step):
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Peace
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Element
So will we soon see the "War on getting to Mars"? :-(
?http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040114-3.html

BTW, Singapore is an interesting place to learn about if you think
about
that city-state as a prototype of the world's first space
settlement. :-)
? ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore
Although one can also imagine many alternative future forms of space
settlement governance than "Disneyland with the Death Penalty": :-(
? ?http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson.html

There, now, including my previous posts, I probably have everyone
across the
political spectrum pissed at me. :-) ?And a few laughing, I hope,
though
hopefully not to the point of pissing in their pants over the
irony. :-)
Who have I not touched on in my monologues? Google-ites. Foundation
managers. "Terrorists". The imperial/government/school/military/
corporation
complex that spawns them all. :-( Both Zionists and Neo-Nazis. Even
the
*real* sea pirates in the Straits. :-( As well as likely those other
alienated youth caught in the middle of all that worldwide mess who
feel
betrayed looking for easy answers or simple characters:http://
www.adbusters.org/the_magazine/71/Generation_Fcked_How_Britain...
?The reason our [British] children?s lives are the worst among
economically
advanced countries is because we are a poor version of the USA,? he
said.
?So the USA comes second from bottom and we follow behind. The age of
neo-liberalism, even with the human face that New Labour has given it,
cannot stem the tide of the social recession capitalism creates.?

Rhetorically, I wonder what *they* all have in common? :-)

Hint: Empire (and profit) or its blowback. :-)

And Empire is, IMHO, a big part of the reason we can't seem to find
the
resources
? ?http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
either for a decent civilian space program or cleaning up Spaceship
Earth
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceship_Earth
which we are all already on board (and then making the world game play
out
well for all the passengers).
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Game

And it seems if you oppose *both* Empire and the terrorists it spawns:
? "Obama Identifies Iraqi 'Blowback'"http://
thegate.nationaljournal.com/2007/07/obama_identifies_iraqi_blo...
that doesn't leave many friendly faces, or does it? :-)
? "Wright's "Blowback""
?http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/carpenter/013
"It seems the Rev. Wright is being asked to head to the back of some
Straight-Talking Express bus. Quiet, boy, only distinguished white
professors are permitted, with impunity, to gussy up the patently
obvious in
books that the great unwashed will never read, nor should they. That
might
crimp our imperial style."

It would be such a farce if people on all sides weren't dying. :-(
Or becoming physical and emotional and genetic casualties:
?http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12482733/
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
Or becoming refugees:
?http://www.unhcr.org/iraq.html
"Iraqi refugees throughout the region have become increasingly
desperate.
Despite a decline in violence in the second half of 2007, only a small
number have gone home, often because their resources are exhausted. Of
those
who returned to Iraq, many found their property occupied and suffered
secondary displacement. UNHCR estimates more than 4.7 million Iraqis
have
left their homes, many in dire need of humanitarian care. Of these,
more
than 2.7 million Iraqis are displaced internally, while more than 2
million
have fled to neighbouring states, particularly Syria and Jordan. Many
were
displaced prior to 2003, but the largest number has fled since. In
2006,
Iraqis became the leading nationality seeking asylum in Europe."

Essentially, by focusing on "profit" (and so Empire to defend that
profit
and related "ownership" and "equity") this is the kind of deadly farce
of
the bubble of Empire that Google and Virgin are (in jest) proposing
bringing
to Mars. It's just the "unsaid" part of the prayer/joke:
? "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain
?http://www.warprayer.org/
Paraphrased: "... You heard the words 'Grant us the [profits on Mars],
O
Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is
compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary.
When you
have prayed for [profits ?on Mars] you have prayed for many
unmentioned
results which follow [profits on Mars] -- must follow it, cannot help
but
follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken
part of
the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen! ... [Help]
us to
turn [those who cannot pay their air fees or water fees or patent fees
or
copyright fees] out roofless with their little children to wander
unfriended
in the wastes of [Mars] in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the
sun
flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn
with
travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it --
For our
sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives,
protract
their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with
their
tears, stain the white [CO2] snow with the blood of their wounded feet
[so
that others will see that suffering and so work harder for profits on
Mars
to avoid the same for their families]! We ask it, in the spirit of
love, of
Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and
friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and
contrite
hearts. Amen. ..."

But Google-ites apparently can't see beyond profit even in jest. Or
can
they? I can hope this jest was just a nervous laugh by Google at
itself. But
with the Virgin involvement, somehow I doubt that. :-( I'll be glad to
be
proven wrong. And I also thought that way myself years ago:
?http://groups.google.com/group/virgle/msg/081919dbba30d1f7
So people can change. Even me. :-)

Again:
"There is nothing more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of
success,
nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things.
For the reformer has enemies in all who profit by the old order.
This luke-warmness arises partly from fear of their adversaries,
who have the law in their favor; and partly from the incredulity of
mankind,
who do not truly believe in anything new until they have had actual
experience of it." -- Machiavelli "The Prince"

Caught in the middle of all this mess, you can hopefully see why I
keep
requoting Manuel De Landa as my conceptual shield. :-( Or perhaps
security
blanket? :-)
? "MESHWORKS, HIERARCHIES AND INTERFACES" by Manuel De Landa
?http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/meshwork.htm
"To make things worse, the solution to this is not simply to begin
adding
meshwork components to the mix. Indeed, one must resist the temptation
to
make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only
because,
as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but because
in real
life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these
cannot
be established through theory alone but demand concrete
experimentation.
Certain standardizations, say, of electric outlet designs or of
data-structures traveling through the Internet, may actually turn out
to
promote heterogenization at another level, in terms of the appliances
that
may be designed around the standard outlet, or of the services that a
common
data-structure may make possible. On the other hand, the mere presence
of
increased heterogeneity is no guarantee that a better state for
society has
been achieved. After all, the territory occupied by former Yugoslavia
is
more heterogeneous now than it was ten years ago, but the lack of
uniformity
at one level simply hides an increase of homogeneity at the level of
the
warring ethnic communities. But even if we managed to promote not only
heterogeneity, but diversity articulated into a meshwork, that still
would
not be a perfect solution. After all, meshworks grow by drift and they
may
drift to places where we do not want to go. The goal-directedness of
hierarchies is the kind of property that we may desire to keep at
least for
certain institutions. Hence, demonizing centralization and glorifying
decentralization as the solution to all our problems would be wrong.
An open
and experimental attitude towards the question of different hybrids
and
mixtures is what the complexity of reality itself seems to call for.
To
paraphrase Deleuze and Guattari, never believe that a meshwork will
suffice
to save us."

Although DMCA is also a bit of a safe harbor for service providers,
like for
OSCOMAK-like systems: :-)
?http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/faq.cgi

Or as I wrote elsewhere in my own words:
"... I agree with the sentiment of the Einstein quote [That we should
approach the universe with compassion], but
that sentiment itself is only part of a larger difficult-to-easily-
resolve
situation. It become more the Yin/Yang or Meshwork/Hierarchy situation
I
see when I look out my home office window into a forest. On the
surface it
is a lovely scene of trees as part of a forest. Still, I try to see
*both*
the peaceful majesty of the trees and how these large trees are
brutally
shading out of existence saplings which are would-be competitors (even
shading out their own children). Yet, even as big trees shade out some
of
their own children, they also put massive resources into creating a
next
generation, one of which will indeed likely someday replace them when
they
fall. I try to remember there is both an unseen silent chemical war
going
on out there where plants produce defense compounds they secrete in
the
soil to inhibit the growth of other plant species (or insects or
fungi) as
a vile act of territoriality and often expansionism, and yet also the
result is a good spacing of biomass to near optimally convert sunlight
to
living matter and resist and recover from wind and ice damage. I try
to
recall that there is the most brutal of competition between species of
plants and animals and fungi and so on over water, nutrients
(including
from eating other creatures), sunlight, and space, while at the same
time
each bacterial colony or multicellular organism (like a large Pine
tree)
is a marvel of cooperation towards some implicitly shared purpose. I
see
the awesome result of both simplicity and complexity in the
organizational
structure of all these organisms and their DNA, RNA, and so on,
adapted so
well in most cases to the current state of such a complex web of
being.
Yet I can only guess the tiniest fraction of what suffering that
selective
shaping through variation and selection must have entailed for untold
numbers of creatures over billions of years. To be truthful, I can
actually *really* see none of that right now as it is dark outside
this
early near Winter Solstice time (and an icy rain is falling) beyond
perhaps a silhouette outline, so I must remember and imagine it,
perhaps as Einstein suggests as an "optical delusion of [my]
consciousness". :-) "

So much for "world peace" when even the tranquil seeming forests have
so
much Yin-Yang complexity going on within and around the trees. :-)
?The best
I feel we can hope for is balance (like Ursula K. Le Guin's writings):
?http://www.ursulakleguin.com/
or maybe, transcendence to some form of universe certainly way beyond
our
present understanding; example, with its own flaws:
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Metamorphosis_of_Prime_Intellect
But still, no matter what examples the universes sets before us, or in
what
proportion, as *ethical* and *spiritual* beings, we humans can choose
a
different way, and at least approximate world peace among ourselves as
best
we can. Something I learned from an old and wise biologist (Larry
Slobodkin)
who studied both philosophy and nature.

What a dangerous game life is, especially living in "interesting
times". :-(
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times
The good news is, no one will get out of this infinite game alive
anyway, so
we might as well have some fun with it 'till then. :-)
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games

See why the USA has to spend about $600 billion a year on K-12 and
college
education (instead of, say, the space program):
?http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d98/d98t031.asp
to keep the US American people "disciplined" and not playful:
?http://www.disciplined-minds.com/
and then "busy" afterwards (including with a military budget 50X
NASA's):
?http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
"Let's pretend for a moment that work doesn't turn people into
stultified
submissives. Let's pretend, in defiance of any plausible psychology
and the
ideology of its boosters, that it has no effect on the formation of
character. And let's pretend that work isn't as boring and tiring and
humiliating as we all know it really is. Even then, work would still
make a
mockery of all humanistic and democratic aspirations, just because it
usurps
so much of our time. Socrates said that manual [or intellectual :-)]
laborers make bad friends and bad citizens because they have no time
to
fulfill the responsibilities of friendship and citizenship. He was
right.
Because of work, no matter what we do, we keep looking at our
watches."

That $600 billion a year is spent essentially from fear of the human
potential. From fear of "OpenVirgle". From *fear* the kids might
actually
figure out how to go to Mars instead of being profligate consumers and
obedient cannon fodder soldiers. :-( That fear is still the
fundamental
basis of the two biggest institutions almost all of us spend almost
all of
our time (school and work). And so *fear* is what keeps more people
from
doing space settlement given how interesting it is and how much
prosperity
our mostly automated productive systems can pump out -- whether those
free
people work on OpenVirgle or choose another approach or another
related good
cause (Earthly sustainability).
?http://www.heifer.org/
?http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/06/09/design-for-the-90-exhibition/
And it is likely fear that holds Google back from becoming a post-
scarcity
organization despite the continuing rush of exponential growth in
technological capacity its planners surely must be predicting:
?http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1
?http://www.bootstrap.org/dkr/discussion/0061.html
?http://www.bootstrap.org/dkr/discussion/0126.html

Now some fears are good to have. But some are not.

And one of the few antidotes to fear is ... humor. :-)
?http://www.humorproject.com/doses/default.php?number=1
?http://www.humorproject.com
And I'm glad to see Google-ites still have some, even given the
insanely
long hours at Google (which frankly are illegal in other parts of the
world. :-)
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek

But is humor enough? From:
?http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue6.htm
"Ordinary people send their children to school to get smart, but what
modern
schooling teaches is dumbness. It?s a religious idea gone out of
control.
You don?t have to accept that, though, to realize this kind of economy
would
be jeopardized by too many smart people who understand too much. I
won?t ask
you to take that on faith. Be patient. I?ll let a famous American
publisher
explain to you the secret of our global financial success in just a
little
while. ..."

But maybe things are different for middle- and upper-middle-class
kids? Or
in private schools?

Again from Gatto:
"""
Jacques Ellul, whose book Propaganda is a reflection on the
phenomenon,
warned us that prosperous children are more susceptible than others to
the
effects of schooling because they are promised more lifelong comfort
and
security for yielding wholly: "Critical judgment disappears
altogether, for
in no way can there ever be collective critical judgment....The
individual
can no longer judge for himself because he inescapably relates his
thoughts
to the entire complex of values and prejudices established by
propaganda.
With regard to political situations, he is given ready-made value
judgments
invested with the power of the truth by...the word of experts." The
new
dumbness is particularly deadly to middle- and upper-middle-class kids
already made shallow by multiple pressures to conform imposed by the
outside
world on their usually lightly rooted parents. When they come of age,
they
are certain they must know something because their degrees and
licenses say
they do. They remain so convinced until an unexpectedly brutal
divorce, a
corporate downsizing in midlife, or panic attacks of meaninglessness
upset
the precarious balance of their incomplete humanity, their stillborn
adult
lives. Alan Bullock, the English historian, said Evil was a state of
incompetence. If true, our school adventure has filled the twentieth
century
with evil. Ellul puts it this way: "The individual has no chance to
exercise
his judgment either on principal questions or on their implication;
this
leads to the atrophy of a faculty not comfortably exercised under [the
best
of] conditions...Once personal judgment and critical faculties have
disappeared or have atrophied, they will not simply reappear when
propaganda
is suppressed...years of intellectual and spiritual education would be
needed to restore such faculties. The propagandee, if deprived of one
propaganda, will immediately adopt another, this will spare him the
agony of
finding himself vis a vis some event without a ready-made opinion."
"""

So, the few in the world with money generally are so *seriously* :-)
caught
up in keeping it all or becoming even *more* pathologically
financially
obese, that they can't help the world transition to a post-scarcity
(and
humorous :-) economy either.

Look at Project Virgle and "An Open Source Planet":
?http://www.google.com/virgle/opensource.html
Even just in jest some of the most financially obese people on the
planet
(who have built their company with thousands of servers all running
GNU/Linux free software) apparently could not see any other
possibility but
seriously becoming even more financially obese off the free work of
others
on another planet (as well as saddling others with financial obesity
too
:-). And that jest came almost half a *century* after the "Triple
Revolution" letter of 1964 about the growing disconnect between effort
and
productivity (or work and financial fitness):
?http://www.educationanddemocracy.org/FSCfiles/
C_CC2a_TripleRevolution...
Even not having completed their PhDs, the top Google-ites may well
take many
more *decades* to shake off that ideological discipline. I know it
took me
decades (and I am still only part way there. :-) As with my mother, no
doubt
Googlers have lived through periods of scarcity of money relative to
their
needs to survive or be independent scholars or effective agents of
change.
Is it any wonder they probably think being financially obese is a
*good*
thing, not an indication of either personal or societal pathology? :-(

Think of what even just a million independent minds could do for the
world
?http://www.albanyfreeschool.com/
?http://www.unschooling.info/
if, like Rachel Corrie, they all had her courage and if they were also
not
too worried about future employment (my advantage as a stay-at-home
Dad. :-)

And, yes, like Rachel, sadly, some of them will die for their beliefs.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of
patriots and tyrants." ?-- ?Thomas Jefferson

But again, like Rachel, even if sadly some might *die* for their
beliefs,
hopefully none would ever *kill* for their beliefs. There is a huge
difference. Imagine, if. say, a million unarmed average US Americans
had
walked into Afghanistan or Iraq or Saudi Arabia (where most of the
hijackers
were from) after 9/11 bearing gifts and helpful skills for the average
people of those places *instead* of a million armed soldiers bringing
shock
and awe. And kept giving even if 10% of them were brutally killed.
What that
would have *proved* about the wrongness of terrorism and 9/11 and the
deepness of the generous US American character which helped end the
"hunger
winter" and earned the Dutch people's gratitude. So maybe this sounds
impossible. But at least it is the kind of thing we can think about --
what
if it was possible? Say, for North Korea? What if?

The fact is, there are far more than six *million* millionaire
families in
the USA who would never have to "work" another day in their lives if
they
were frugal (and so could work full time on space settlement or other
worthwhile charitable free ends).
? ?http://www.dba-oracle.com/t_billionaire_next_door.htm
There must just be a failure of imagination that keeps them from it.
Or an
excess of a certain capitalist religion shown on a libertarian-leaning
college mailing list I am on (and usually disagreeing :-). Or a
failure to
be able to define "enough" and move beyond a fear of becoming poor.
And the
millionaires I've known or heard of who became suddenly wealthy
generally
are suddenly adrift in a life that has not prepared them for thinking
about
deep questions like what their values and priorities really are and
why --
and working through that takes time which they often don't have as
money
runs away from them spent on trivialities of "their stillborn adult
lives".
And the stable millionaires who have slowly earned their wealth are
often so
enmeshed in the current order of things to make it hard to see beyond
it (a
current order which they may well have genuinely and sincerely tried
to make
better, like at Google, and even succeeded at doing so to an extent,
within
the bounds of Empire.)

And no, I am not a millionaire. I'm just a somewhat frugal guy
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_simplicity
with a little imagination and a hard working spouse (who is probably
much
smarter and more imaginative than me in many ways. :-)
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileva_Mari%C4%87
That's one reason we are stuck with so many hard choices day-to-day,
like
whether to purchase health insurance or not, or develop intelligence
systems
or not. :-(

Fortunately we don't have the worse choices of many US Americans these
days
of whether to starve or freeze. :-(
? ?http://www.secondharvest.org/learn_about_hunger/
? "Feeds more than 25 million hungry Americans each year"
? ?http://www.hungerinamerica.org/
? ?"?It is tragic and alarming that more and more people are relying
on
emergency food assistance in the United States, where we produce
enough food
to feed every hungry person in the world,? said Robert Forney,
President and
CEO of the America's Second Harvest Network."

And the final solution for that still seems a ways off, giving us a
short
time still to act and play with better scenarios than this:
?http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna4.htm
"Ultimately, you would expect that there would be riots across
America. But
the people could not riot. The terrorist scares at the beginning of
the
century had caused a number of important changes. By 2030, there were
video
security cameras and microphones covering and recording nearly every
square
inch of public space in America. There were taps on all phone
conversations
and Internet messages sniffing for terrorist clues. If anyone thought
about
starting a protest rally or a riot, or discussed any form of civil
disobedience with anyone else, he was branded a terrorist and
preemptively
put in jail. Combine that with robotic security forces, and riots are
impossible. ... Because no one had a window, they could really pack
people
into these buildings. Each terrafoam dorm building had a four-acre
foot
print. It was a perfect 417 foot by 417 foot by 417 foot solid brown
cube.
Each cube originally held exactly 76,800 people. Doubling this to
153,600
people in each building was unthinkable, but they were doing it
anyway. On
the other hand, you had to marvel at the efficiency. At that density,
they
could house every welfare recipient in the entire country in less than
1,500
of these buildings. By spacing the buildings 100 feet apart, they
could
house 200,000,000 people in a space of less than 20 square miles if
they had
wanted to. At that density, they could put everyone in the country
without a
job into a space less than five miles square in size, put a fence
around it
and forget about us. If they accidentally dropped a nuclear bomb or
two on
us, we would all be gone and they wouldn't have to worry about us
anymore."

Also, more important than implementations I or others may do (or fail
to do
from lack of focus or time) are the *ideas* behind them. And the
*ethics*
behind them. And the April 1st Project Virgle announcement has made it
possible for me to get these ideas out there as one more voice in the
chorus, by giving me a drop more of creative energy. :-) Even if, as
with
Lando Calrissian, the ethical decisions of living in the middle of
Empire-enforced scarcity (25 million hungry Americans?) can often be
quite
complex. :-( Like we just sent a check to the US Empire for enough
money to
have paid someone to work on Project Virgle full time for a year
(well,
maybe in India :-), when I know much of it will instead pay for the US
Military (and bullets and cluster bombs and land mines) instead.
?http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/
?http://www.icbl.org/treaty
To be clear, I'd happily pay more in taxes if like in much of Europe
everyone else did and the money was well spent.

See also: :-)
?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Galileo_Seven
"Spock gets an idea and decides to dump and ignite all the remaining
fuel
from the [shuttlecraft's] engines [rather than maintain orbit as long
as
possible which would result in sure doom to follow for everyone in his
care
in an hour]. This produces a giant flare that is easily spotted by the
Enterprise sensors. Once again, Kirk turns the ship around and
transports
the survivors out just moments before the shuttle is destroyed on re-
entry."

Maybe the millionaires and billionaires and trillionaires
(governments) out
there should think on Spock's choice as capitalistic and militaristic
irrational exuberance starts reentering the stratosphere (wars over
food,
water, arms, climate, and oil profits, and yes, blowback from
terrorism).
?http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=globalization+blowback
And actually do something besides compete and make jokes:
?http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/nc.htm
"No Contest, which has been stirring up controversy since its
publication in
1986, stands as the definitive critique of competition. Drawing from
hundreds of studies, Alfie Kohn eloquently argues that our struggle to
defeat each other -- at work, at school, at play, and at home -- turns
all
of us into losers."

But given what Gatto and Ellul say, that action may be a long time
coming
because the wealthy get so much emotional reward out of believing the
propaganda of elites deserving abundance amidst scarcity for the many
and
spreading that propaganda further (even via Virgle).
? "The Mythology of Wealth"http://www.democraticunderground.com/
discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&...
"The cheap-labor conservative ?minimalist government? social Darwinian
world
view is just plain bullshit. It builds a new class structure, which
just
like the ancient class structures, is based on a set of mythological
concepts. In fact, those mythological concepts like ?property rights?,
?contract rights?, ?corporations?, ?stocks?, ?bonds?, and even ?money?
itself are socially created to regulate distribution and access to
resources. The ?market place? is a human creation. The details of how
it
operates are determined by the particulars of the institutions on
which it
is built. It is ?instituted among men?, and if its workings become
destructive of the lives, liberty and pursuit of happiness of people
subject
to it, it may be ?altered or abolished?."

For example, Google contractors get no Segways and massages?
?http://www.google-watch.org/googles-ipo.html
Or second class badges?
?http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/googlife
"I used to work at Google as a Contractor. Let me tell you, it wasn't
the
greatest place for a contractor. First, you have red badges, so anyone
with
a Google badge looks down on you. Already you feel left out, and you
don't
feel like enjoying all the benefits Googler's have. ... I don't miss
working
there. The people arn't really all that friendly, people have
arrogance and
MBA, PHD attitudes."

And ultimately, aren't even the people in sweatshops in, say, China
who
build component used in Google servers in some sense Google
contractors?
Definitely no Segways or massages for them. :-(
?http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/templer220807.html
"Well over 150 million migrant workers from rural areas have crowded
into
the cities over the past decade in search of economic survival. ?They
may
regularly not get paid for months at a time. ?Public healthcare across
the
economy is declining to the point where many millions of working
families
cannot afford to seek medical care or risk huge debt if they do.
?Migrant
workers are at especial risk. ?Large numbers of workers in the toy
industry
have now lost their jobs directly as a result of the Mattel recall,
and its
fallout continues. They are the direct victims of their local bosses'
abuses
and the lack of safety control. ?But of course they and their stories
and
suffering, literally inscribed in the toys they make, remain
invisible."

So what is Google Headquarters in Mountain View, California but a
little
temporary space habitat bubble of happiness for regular employees, but
floating on a sea of relative misery for everyone else planetwide who
supports it? Can't we as a society or Google/Virgle as an aspiration
do
better that that? And even within that bubble are emerging issues. How
long
can a company expect to run on twenty-somethings without kids?

Google-ites and other financially obese people IMHO need to take a
good look
at the junk food capitalist propaganda they are eating and serving up
to
others, as in saying (even in jest):
?http://www.google.com/virgle/opensource.html
"we should profit from others' use of our innovations, and we should
buy or
lease others' intellectual property whenever it advances our own
goals"
-- even while running one of the biggest post-scarcity enterprises on
Earth
based on free-as-in-freedom software. :-(

Until then, it is up to us other
?http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0145660/quotes
"semi-evil ... quasi-evil ... not evil enough" hobbyists with smaller
budgets to save the Asteroids and the Planets (including Earth)
? ?http://www.openvirgle.net/
from financially obese people and their unexamined evil plans to
spread
profit-driven scarcity-creating Empire throughout every nook-and-
cranny of
the universe. :-(
?http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086190/quotes
?"The Emperor: Young fool... Only now, at the end, do you
understand... [the
power of love of money :-(]"

Actually, in Google's defense, as far as most newly wealthy, key
Google
people have done far, far better than most by tithing 10% of the
Google IPO
to charitable causes:
?http://www.google.org/
?http://www.google.org/foundation.html
But they remain financially obese. Michael Phillips in _The Seven Laws
of
Money_ ?suggests
?http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Seven+Laws+of+Money
that from his experience on the board of the Point Foundation that it
was
almost impossible to give money away effectively. And I'd certainly
agree
the world may well be better served with the current leadership at
Google
(who are at least trying not to be "evil", even if that is impossible
100%
in our society or in life in general) instead of if they sold out to
another
new Google leadership that might be 100% evil, especially given Google
is
rapidly becoming a de-facto world government in some ways.
? "Cory Doctorow's Fiction About An Evil Google"
?http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/20/2325240
So, their situation is not an easy one. And I may poke fun at them (as
they
poked fun at all of us on April 1st), but I would not bother if I did
not in
some sense also respect their accomplishments and their potential.

So what am I really saying?

That we as a society are not going to happily get to Mars or the
Asteroids
or other star systems, or even just fix up Space Ship Earth, until we
come
to see the love of money as the problem, not the solution.

Or as made clear by Iain M. Banks:
?http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/the-culture.html
"Money is a sign of poverty, meaning that money only has a function in
a
scarcity economy, and therefore its existence betrays a pre-abundant
(poor)
society."

And so financial obesity is part of the problem, not the solution.

Do with that insight what you can, even if only in jest next April
1st. :-)

I'll say this about my mom: obese and chainsmoker that she was later
in
life, she was a real trooper to the end. I can respect her for that.
And she
had to live with far worse than three rich guys making fun at her
dreams.
Anyway, I'm getting bored and talked out with making political and
social
comments here (I can hear the cheers and applause :-), so on to more
programming etc. on OpenVirgle and OSCOMAK.

--Paul Fernhout
Putting Ki-Aikido into practice throughout the Universe? :-)http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Shin_Toitsu_Aikido

[Note: on physical obesity: I'm overweight and working on
it. :-)http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20070702/stress-unlocks-fat-
cells-ups-...http://www.engadget.com/2005/06/08/the-treadmill-
workstation/
]
copyright (c) 2008 Paul D. Fernhout
Verbatim copying and redistribution of this entire document are
permitted
provided this notice is preserved.


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 22 06:54:52 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:54:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418160315.02475438@satx.rr.com><200804181739.28546.kanzure@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080418184613.024deaf0@satx.rr.com><01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com><a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com><03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<051f01c8a440$aabe7590$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <052901c8a445$fb6ccf50$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rick writes

[Keith wrote]
>> > While information has to be embedded in matter,
>> > the particular material is not important.  It the
>> > pattern of information that makes one person
>> > different from another, not the particular atoms.
> 
>> which was well said, and is the vast majority view here.
> 
> So then we have an original  and a copy or copies, but no 
> subjective awareness transfer.  This  reminds me of many
> archived debates.

No, no, no!  You've got it entirely wrong, Rick!   The
above point made by Keith is *entirely* unproblematical
among the great majority here. Bringing in *copies* is
where things get dicy.

And now you do bring it up:

>>> This makes me think that:
>>>
>>> If it is the "pattern", then the information should be
>>> readily transferable when uploading, or even
>>> duplicatable if one were cloning.
>> 
>> Quite right. Are you beginning to consider that this in
>> fact might be the fundamental answer to your query,
>> namely that uploading (if carried out according to
>> the criteria usually mentioned) would be no more
>> disturbing to who you really are than a good night's
>> sleep is?
> 
> Sure, but then I'm still sleeping while the copy is
> out having a good time.

Are you quite reading people's emails carefully? You
seem blissfully unaware that I was addressing the
*first* part of your point above---namely, the /uploading/
portion.

You act as though I had just commented on the *second*
part of what you wrote (which at this point I did not!).

Also, try giving one last proofread to something before
you post it---that would catch a lot of errors. But if you
are one of those "peck and post" types, you probably
have glazed over the end of this sentence already and
are pecking away a reply.

>>> Wikipedia: "A pattern of information (or form) is
>>> the pattern or content of an instance or piece of
>>> information. Many separate pieces of information
>>> may share the same form. We can say that those
>>> pieces are perfectly correlated or say that they are
>>> copies of each other, as in copies of a book."
>> 
>> Thanks for the wiki quote. Yes. That's just how many
>> of us look at survival through copies.
> 
> The copy survives but the original bites the big one.Lee

Was that period supposed to be a comma, by any chance?
It sort of looks like---now, thanks to you---as if I had 
written that line and were signing off or something
 
Now *this* last statement of yours is where all the endless
contention has come. I'm hardly going to enter into an
argument about it here with you, until you say something
I haven't heard a million times before. (I've been in truly
exasperating face-to-face conversations with people who
reply---no matter what I've just got through explaining---
"yes, but it's still just a copy, Lee", as if that *automatically*
conferred a distinct.... ah, what?... a distinct "soul", perhaps.)

Lee



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 08:00:23 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:30:23 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: A rant on financial obesity and Project Virgle & an
	ironic disclosure :-)
In-Reply-To: <0885851f-4467-48f8-bc56-fec3a090c4ad@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
References: <480D617D.4050102@kurtz-fernhout.com>
	<0885851f-4467-48f8-bc56-fec3a090c4ad@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804220100y349d1bbax7de1bfceb4125ea1@mail.gmail.com>

I found something really fascinating in that post, namely this:

http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html

"The Abolition of Work
by Bob Black, 1985
No one should ever work.

Work is the source of nearly all the misery in the world. Almost any
evil you'd care to name comes from working or from living in a world
designed for work. In order to stop suffering, we have to stop
working. "

etc...

It's a long article, but well worth the read if you've never read it.

I need to read it again and have a bit of a think about it, I reckon.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


On 22/04/2008, kanzure <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Paul D. Fernhout" <pdfernh... at kurtz-fernhout.com>
> Date: Apr 21, 10:54 pm
> Subject: A rant on financial obesity and Project Virgle & an ironic
> disclosure :-)
> To: Project Virgle


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 08:34:44 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:34:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: A rant on financial obesity and Project Virgle & an
	ironic disclosure :-)
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0804220100y349d1bbax7de1bfceb4125ea1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <480D617D.4050102@kurtz-fernhout.com>
	<0885851f-4467-48f8-bc56-fec3a090c4ad@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
	<710b78fc0804220100y349d1bbax7de1bfceb4125ea1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804220134x68354c93y3962e8604ad26c7e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Emlyn wrote:
> I found something really fascinating in that post, namely this:
>
>  http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
>
>  "The Abolition of Work
>  by Bob Black, 1985
>  No one should ever work.
>
>  Work is the source of nearly all the misery in the world. Almost any
>  evil you'd care to name comes from working or from living in a world
>  designed for work. In order to stop suffering, we have to stop
>  working. "
>  etc...
>
>  It's a long article, but well worth the read if you've never read it.
>  I need to read it again and have a bit of a think about it, I reckon.
>


In case you haven't noticed Bob Black is an anarchist.   :)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Black>
Quote:
Beginning in the late 1970s, Bob Black was one of the earliest people
to advocate what is now called post-left anarchy. In his vociferously
confrontational writing style he has criticized many of the perceived
sacred cows of leftist, anarchist, and activist thought.

He has also written an equally amusing rant against Libertarians
<http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/5065/libcon.html>
Quote:
I agreed to come here today to speak on some such subject as "The
Libertarian as Conservative." To me this is so obvious that I am hard
put to find something to say to people who still think libertarianism
has something to do with liberty. A libertarian is just a Republican
who takes drugs.
etc......


He's a fun read, no doubt about that......

BillK


From amara at amara.com  Tue Apr 22 09:52:26 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:52:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] MondoGlobo
Message-ID: <p06230906c43363f34a9a@[192.168.0.66]>

If folks here are not aware of RU Sirius' largest and newest collaborative
venture, and you think he has something valuable to say, then you should
know about this:

MondoGlobo
http://mondoglobo.ning.com/

"All political change starts with defiance of some authority, some
established power structure that does not want to be weakened or
eliminated. We are reminding concerned citizens of this simple fact, and
bringing non-authoritarians together."


Amara
-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From amara at amara.com  Tue Apr 22 09:40:38 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:40:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: A rant on financial obesity and Project Virgle & an
 ironic disclosure :-)
Message-ID: <p06230905c43361cfca15@[192.168.0.66]>

Emlyn:
>I found something really fascinating in that post, namely this:

>http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html

>"The Abolition of Work
>by Bob Black, 1985
>No one should ever work.

I thought I learned about Bob Black from the Extropians, but no, it was
before I met the Extropians, by about 5 years, via Loompanics and my
fun libertarian / anarchocapitalist / fringe friends in the early-middle
1980s.

http://www.spunk.org/texts/writers/black/sp001672.html
http://helpychalk.blogspot.com/2008/01/loompanics-and-free-speech.html
http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1402

Bob Black's other writings
http://www.t0.or.at/bobblack/bobblack.htm

You got me nostalgic, you know, as this was the time I became an
anarchist, influenced by Stirner,  Vonu's _Search for Personal Freedom_,
and other writings from Loompanics.

Max Stirner:
http://www.nonserviam.com/stirner/

Vonu:
http://vonu.org/default.aspx

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. :-)

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 11:30:22 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:30:22 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804210718r720747ccg344c6ff57d05d08f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210718r720747ccg344c6ff57d05d08f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804220430q591ac67dq7a6270e6f1b9d8f5@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/22 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  >  I am not asking a philosophical question but, if you will, a practical
>  >  question about what we really think is likely to be the case. We
>  >  cannot be absolutely sure that the Earth is spherical rather than flat
>  >  any more than we can be absolutely sure that other people have minds
>  >  like our own.
>
>  I believe that a difference nevertheless exists. I cannot be sure that
>  the earth is really spherical in the sense that I might be dreaming
>  the world or living in a VR, ? la Deutsch. But making the assumption
>  that this is not the case, there are different consequences, both from
>  a theoretical and practical point of view, that makes the hyphothesis
>  that the earth is flat not really satisfactory.

There are also practical and theoretical consequences to the theory
that other people have feelings; whether we can torture them with
impunity, for example.

There was a time when I was in the thrall of logical positivism and
thought the question of whether other people have feelings was
metaphysical nonsense. Reluctantly, I have dropped that position and
now think that it is *very likely* other people have feelings.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 12:03:43 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:03:43 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Point of emotion
In-Reply-To: <322961.17492.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <f21c22e30804201808p941df02n83be824a504fa431@mail.gmail.com>
	<322961.17492.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804220503i47162a0co9ca2be6ceb1c16cb@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/22 The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>:

>  Are you suggesting that emotions are necessary prerequisite for goal-
>  oriented cognition? Are not certain psychopathologies like major
>  depression or schizoid presonality disorder characterized by a lack of
>  emotion? While depressed people may not be operating well in a social
>  sense, I don't think one could say that they no longer are capable of
>  complex thought.

A better example is schizophrenia with predominantly negative
symptoms. These patients have what is called "blunted affect", a
general flattening of the emotional landscape which can be likened to
reducing the dynamic range of an audio recording. They are cognitively
intact insofar as their memory and ability to reason logically is not
impaired. However, they invariably lack motivation, and they sometimes
show poor judgement when they have to make decisions (although more
commonly impaired judgement is due to positive psychotic symptoms).
This is because there isn't such a gradient of desirability separating
different choices, including the choice of sitting around doing
nothing. Now one can imagine improving the situation by increasing the
dynamic range without increasing the intensity of emotion. For
example, a person can easily play a game in which token values are
applied to different outcomes, with the aim of maximising the total
score: 25 is clearly a better score than 24, even though the absolute
and differential emotional impact of these numbers is minimal. An AI
could therefore be given pseudo-emotions using some similar system.
But if that's the case, why didn't nature give us such
pseudo-emotions? Could it be that a rich enough system of
pseudo-emotions would ipso facto *be* regular emotions, in the same
way as a rich enough system of environmental interaction is thought
(by some) to *be* consciousness, without the need for any extra
special sauce?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 12:26:41 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:26:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804220430q591ac67dq7a6270e6f1b9d8f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210718r720747ccg344c6ff57d05d08f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804220430q591ac67dq7a6270e6f1b9d8f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804220526u64ff7c02me2227df534de1ea7@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  There are also practical and theoretical consequences to the theory
>  that other people have feelings; whether we can torture them with
>  impunity, for example.

Are there really? Many would assume that torturing without reason
something or somebody who persuasively show bad feelings about it
denotes sadistic instincts anyway, whatever the subject may "really"
feel.

>  Reluctantly, I have dropped that position and
>  now think that it is *very likely* other people have feelings.

Fine. It is therefore reasonable to make similar assumptions about
other biological or non-biological entities that exhibit a
phenomenically similar behaviour in this respect, as natural empathy
tends to dictate anyway.

Stefano Vaj


From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr 22 13:03:42 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:03:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <480CF113.3030705@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>	<019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7641ddc60804181816vf962ce0j30f794658426e8d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<480CF113.3030705@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <8CA72906C705D98-FB8-5CD5@WEBMAIL-MB19.sysops.aol.com>



I ran into my own tissue concoction talking back to me recently. The other day my teen daughter decided not to clean her room and stated that she never asked to be born and that she resents all the stuff we make her do (which is almost nothing but she sees it otherwise). Of course she can claim self-ownership, which means I can't harm her. Nor would I want to. But I was quick to point out that if I so desired, I could still make her work for me in the office without paying her minimum wage. Does this mean our children qualify as legal slaves? 


That is exactly the point I was going to make. Children?could appear to be,?for all intents and purposes our slaves in all but name. However the differences are markedly clear, although apparently not to some parents or cultures. Would a sentient toaster with a desire for self ownership be a slave if we were protecting it and guiding its development toward self sufficiency?
In order to avoid a world full of stropy teenage toasters doing to much 'muffin' and destroying there lives and those around them. I think we need to adjust our definition of slave to include not only concepts of self ownership, but also measurement of the ability and responsibility to be self owning.

Alex
________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr 22 13:01:51 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:01:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com><8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com><200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com><007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>

Me:

>>  To make an upload even sheets a thousand atoms thick
>> would probably  be vast overkill, and no need to do the
>> entire body, just the brain will do.

"Stathis Papaioannou" <stathisp at gmail.com>

> How can you be sure about that? Tiny molecules causing tiny changes in
> conformation of membrane proteins can make huge differences to
> cognition.

Seems like a pretty good bet to me. There are no permanent biological
structures only one atom thick. If there are any that are 1000 atoms thick
it shouldn't be that difficult to infer what must be below the top layer we
are scanning, most of the time just more of the same.

   John K Clark








From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 13:38:16 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:38:16 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804220526u64ff7c02me2227df534de1ea7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210718r720747ccg344c6ff57d05d08f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804220430q591ac67dq7a6270e6f1b9d8f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804220526u64ff7c02me2227df534de1ea7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804220638m25b714cenc76c64b0def85b38@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/22 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  >  There are also practical and theoretical consequences to the theory
>  >  that other people have feelings; whether we can torture them with
>  >  impunity, for example.
>
>  Are there really? Many would assume that torturing without reason
>  something or somebody who persuasively show bad feelings about it
>  denotes sadistic instincts anyway, whatever the subject may "really"
>  feel.

Not really. People do all sorts of terrible things to characters in
computer games because they don't believe they have feelings, but only
*act* as if they have feelings. Myself, I eschew such behaviour, but I
won't call those who enjoy it sadistic.

>  >  Reluctantly, I have dropped that position and
>  >  now think that it is *very likely* other people have feelings.
>
>  Fine. It is therefore reasonable to make similar assumptions about
>  other biological or non-biological entities that exhibit a
>  phenomenically similar behaviour in this respect, as natural empathy
>  tends to dictate anyway.

Oh yes, I wasn't disputing this. What I was disputing is the idea that
we treat others as having minds while remaining agnostic on, or
indifferent to, the question of whether or not they have minds.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 13:44:21 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:44:21 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/22 John K Clark <jonkc at att.net>:

>  Seems like a pretty good bet to me. There are no permanent biological
>  structures only one atom thick. If there are any that are 1000 atoms thick
>  it shouldn't be that difficult to infer what must be below the top layer we
>  are scanning, most of the time just more of the same.

The identity of a protein requires atomic level resolution, for a start.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr 22 14:10:29 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:10:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com><8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com><200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com><007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer><f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com><002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c8a482$cfa41580$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>

"Stathis Papaioannou" <stathisp at gmail.com>

> The identity of a protein requires atomic level resolution, for a start.

Yes but we already know the 3D shape of many proteins to atomic
resolution, by the time we get serious about uploading we will 
certainly know them all. If you could see the surface and you also
knew what part of the cell you were looking at I think you could
figure out what protein it must be even if you couldn't see all of it.

  John K Clark






From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Apr 22 11:30:10 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:30:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] MondoGlobo
Message-ID: <380-22008422211301063@M2W035.mail2web.com>


From: Amara Graps amara at amara.com

MondoGlobo
http://mondoglobo.ning.com/

"All political change starts with defiance of some authority, some
established power structure that does not want to be weakened or
eliminated. We are reminding concerned citizens of this simple fact, and
bringing non-authoritarians together."

Hola,

Perhaps we need to defy social democratic transhumanists in search of our
own HAN (Korean Buddhstic view concerning the oppressed and enligtenment)
in overcoming political authoritarian presence within transhumanism.

Buenos dias, 
Natasha




Amara
-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE




From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr 22 15:12:35 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:12:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat and Robert Bradbury
Message-ID: <480E0063.10809@insightbb.com>

Several years ago Robert Bradbury and I were having a discussion about 
lab created meat replacing the existing method of meat production which 
involves feeding, raising, breeding and killing millions of animals. The 
idea was to produce meat more efficiently with a side-benefit of being 
able to control many factors to make it healthier at the same time.

I may be wrong, but I think Robert had mentioned investing in a group 
that was researching this. If so, I wanted to let him know that PETA 
just announced a $1 million reward for the first company to produce 
lab-grown chicken meat edible and indistinguishable from real chicken 
meat by 2012.

http://www.physorg.com/news128076961.html

Does anyone know how to reach him? Can someone forward this to him or 
send me his email address? His domain shows a generic Joomla page for a 
site he is working on. I found several Robert Bradbury's on a search but 
I can't be certain which one is the right one.


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr 22 15:13:52 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:13:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] US life expectancy stagnant and/or declining
Message-ID: <480E00B0.4020002@insightbb.com>

Interesting article as we were recently debating the public health system:

http://www.physorg.com/news128062959.html




Life expectancy no longer improving for large segment of the US population


One of the major aims of the U.S. health system is improving the health 
of all people, particularly those segments of the population at greater 
risk of health disparities. In fact, overall life expectancy in the U.S. 
increased more than seven years for men and more than six years for 
women between 1960 and 2000.

Now, a new, long-term study of mortality trends in U.S. counties over 
the same four decades reports a troubling finding: These gains are not 
reaching many parts of the country; rather, the life expectancy of a 
significant segment of the population is declining or at best stagnating.

Researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) and the 
University of Washington found that 4% of the male population and 19% of 
the female population experienced either decline or stagnation in 
mortality beginning in the 1980s.

?There has always been a view in U.S. health policy that inequalities 
are more tolerable as long as everyone?s health is improving. There is 
now evidence that there are large parts of the population in the United 
States whose health has been getting worse for about two decades,? said 
Majid Ezzati, Associate Professor of International Health at HSPH and 
lead author of the study.

The majority of the counties that had the worst downward swings in life 
expectancy were in the Deep South, along the Mississippi River, and in 
Appalachia, extending into the southern portion of the Midwest and into 
Texas.

The researchers analyzed mortality data from the National Center for 
Health Statistics
and population data from the U.S. Census Bureau between 1959 and 2001. 
The study is the first to look at mortality trends in the U.S. by county 
over such a long period of time. (County data is the smallest measurable 
unit for which mortality data is available.) The National Center for 
Health Statistics stopped providing data after 2001.

The results showed that, between 1961 and 1999, average life expectancy 
in the U.S. increased from 66.9 to 74.1 years for men and from 73.5 to 
79.6 for women. Looking at individual counties, however, the researchers 
found that beginning in the 1980s, the best-off counties continued to 
improve but there was a stagnation or worsening of life expectancy in 
the worst-off counties--what the researchers refer to as ?the reversal 
of fortunes.? As a result, while men in the best-off counties lived 9.0 
years longer than those in the worst-off counties in 1983, by 1999 that 
gap had increased to 11.0 years; for women the 1983 life expectancy gap 
of 6.7 years increased to 7.5 years by 1999. Over the past few decades, 
life expectancy in high-income countries around the world has gradually 
risen, with few exceptions.

Given the consistent trend of declining mortality rates in high-income 
countries, the results of this study, which show large segments of the 
American population experiencing stagnating or worsening health 
conditions, are particularly troubling. Ezzati said, ?The finding that 
4% of the male population and 19% of the female population experienced 
either decline or stagnation in mortality is a major public health 
concern.? Christopher Murray, Director of the Institute for Health 
Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington and co-author of 
the study, added that ?life expectancy decline is something that has 
traditionally been considered a sign that the health and social systems 
have failed, as has been the case in parts of Africa and Eastern Europe. 
The fact that is happening to a large number of Americans should be a 
sign that the U.S. health system needs serious rethinking.?

The researchers also analyzed data on deaths from different diseases and 
showed that the stagnation and worsening mortality was primarily a 
result of an increase in diabetes, cancers and chronic obstructive 
pulmonary disease, combined with a slowdown or halt in improvements in 
cardiovascular mortality. An increase in HIV/AIDS and homicides also 
played a role for men, but not for women.

The diseases that are responsible for this troubling trend seem to be 
most related to smoking, high blood pressure, and obesity. ?Smoking and 
blood pressure have a long history of being controlled through both 
personal and population strategies. There is good evidence on relatively 
low-cost and effective ways of dealing with these issues if one of the 
health system?s imperatives becomes to close this widening life 
expectancy gap,? said Ezzati.

Source: Harvard School of Public Health


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr 22 16:11:01 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:11:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804220638m25b714cenc76c64b0def85b38@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804210718r720747ccg344c6ff57d05d08f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804220430q591ac67dq7a6270e6f1b9d8f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804220526u64ff7c02me2227df534de1ea7@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804220638m25b714cenc76c64b0def85b38@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080422110231.025a7d88@satx.rr.com>

At 11:38 PM 4/22/2008 +1000, Stathis wrote:

>People do all sorts of terrible things to characters in
>computer games because they don't believe they have feelings, but only
>*act* as if they have feelings. Myself, I eschew such behaviour, but I
>won't call those who enjoy it sadistic.

Any such discussion risks lurching into essentialism. Arguably 
sadistic is as sadistic does. It seems plausible enough to me that 
doing terrible things to imaginary characters (something novelists do 
a lot, for their own motives and the delectation of their readers) is 
a form of displacement of their own real urges toward entities in the 
real world. That's all rather abstractified, but I'm trying to keep 
away from overly concrete Freudian notions like "You want to 
fuck/possess your mother and kill/displace your father". Almost 
everyone has such urges and enjoys gratifying them, as the box office 
makes clear. So using a pathognomonic term like "sadistic" is 
probably unwarranted and misleading. But something along the same 
dimension is being activated and rewarded.

Damien Broderick




From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr 22 19:46:39 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:46:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <200804210642.56307.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>	<8CA718DB5E7D538-F48-23E@WEBMAIL-DG05.sim.aol.com>
	<200804210642.56307.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA72C8B7481B43-E20-1F20@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>


However, that still doesn't explain how you are going to get 
those 'perfect' cross-sections of the human body.

- Bryan
________________________________________






 
Ok, a quick rough and ready description of what I can imagine.
I envisage the subject to be in a frozen, vitrified state and ideally also further set in a solid block of some kind of medium (*).
The film demolition man probably gives the closest visual example, however I see the subject in the typical laid out (death) pose 
and the block being a rectangular type, not circular.The STM could then be CNC controlled to pick up one atom at a time, presumably
identifying each type by charge or size? I'm not sure if we are quite at this level yet, but it is surely within short term reach. 
The atoms are then encoded to the data upload. The atom could either be dropped giving us a destroy the original scenario,
or preferably could be attached to a new substrate so as to reconstruct the original.The machine continues following a row and
column path (**) until the entire single atom plane has been removed, so down to the next layer.You can imagine the time this would 
take, so multiple heads would be preferable. In the tens or hundreds of thousands .I would imagine we could give it a try with a very
 small life form, or sub life like a virus to test the concept? If the reconstruction method were used, and a hardy virus that could 
survive the low temp, we should theoretically be able to revive it on thawing?Any idea how many atoms in a virus sized block? LOL
Alex

(*) this solid medium block is to avoid problems with extremities so they are secured in position.
(**) As atom size and there position would not be uniform, the machine could use a track along to next atom method rather than an exact grid.So rows/columns would be roughly 1 angstrom, but the exact position of atoms found would be encoded and replicated in the reconstruction.



________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr 22 19:50:44 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:50:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com><8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <8CA72C9498CEE25-E20-1F77@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: John K Clark <jonkc at att.net>


> How are you going to get thin slices of the entire body,
> down to one  atom  thin sheets of all of the tissues?

To make an upload even sheets a thousand atoms thick would probably
be vast overkill, and no need to do the entire body, just the brain will do.

  John K Clark


_______________________________________________
 

I would have to agree. If we can get enough resolution to capture 'the pattern' we need not go to the single atom level.

Or rather I hope not.


Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr 22 20:05:01 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:05:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>	<f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com>	<002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA72CB47DA35CC-E20-20EF@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>



>  Seems like a pretty good bet to me. There are no permanent biological
>  structures only one atom thick. If there are any that are 1000 atoms thick
>  it shouldn't be that difficult to infer what must be below the top layer we
>  are scanning, most of the time just more of the same.

The identity of a protein requires atomic level resolution, for a start.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
_______________________________________________
 

I think this comes down to whether the mind/Identity pattern is stored at this level or just the neural links?

I can't see this being answered by anything other than actual experimentation.


Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From godsdice at gmail.com  Tue Apr 22 22:02:58 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:02:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <052901c8a445$fb6ccf50$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<051f01c8a440$aabe7590$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<052901c8a445$fb6ccf50$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804221502q68f3b736o35904750ab0dde8@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorry.  I missed the "Lee".  It should have been deleted.

With respect, I have a lot of reading to do to catch up on the references
provided above, so if it would be appropriate, I'll spend some very
interesting time reviewing.

Thank you, all.

Rick Strongitharm

"Faith, the size of a mountain, can't budge a mustard seed."
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 00:01:52 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:01:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat and Robert Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <480E0063.10809@insightbb.com>
References: <480E0063.10809@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804221901.52664.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 22 April 2008, Kevin Freels wrote:
> Several years ago Robert Bradbury and I were having a discussion
> about lab created meat replacing the existing method of meat
> production which involves feeding, raising, breeding and killing
> millions of animals. The idea was to produce meat more efficiently
> with a side-benefit of being able to control many factors to make it
> healthier at the same time.
>
> I may be wrong, but I think Robert had mentioned investing in a group
> that was researching this. If so, I wanted to let him know that PETA
> just announced a $1 million reward for the first company to produce
> lab-grown chicken meat edible and indistinguishable from real chicken
> meat by 2012.
>
> http://www.physorg.com/news128076961.html
>
> Does anyone know how to reach him? Can someone forward this to him or
> send me his email address? His domain shows a generic Joomla page for
> a site he is working on. I found several Robert Bradbury's on a
> search but I can't be certain which one is the right one.

Robert Bradbury is somewhere on GRG, last I checked.

Re: in vitro meat.
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Meat_on_a_stick
http://new-harvest.org/

I will be working with tissue engineering topics more closely soon, so I 
have a chance to implement some research strategies; harvesting some of 
the research from burn victim regenerative tissue research, plus 
Yamanaka iPS cell culturing techniques, plus the 142 different types of 
cell differentiation protocols that we know now, well, things can go 
pretty well. I think the tough part is going to be scaffolding and 
distributing nutrients to meat growing in a tank, this is known as the 
vascularization issue.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From ablainey at aol.com  Wed Apr 23 00:18:30 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:18:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CA72EEB155D9B0-D38-301C@WEBMAIL-MA01.sysops.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Nowell nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk



To add my voice to the debate about programming emotion into AIs -
emotional responses make a handy shortcut in decision-making. A couple
of popular psychology books recently (eg Blink, and I can't remember
the name of the other one I read) have as their central point the sheer
volume of decisions you undertake subconsciously and instantly. An AI
without emotions would have to process through everything and carefully
decide what criteria to judge things on, then use those criteria to
carefully weigh up options - this may take up a whopping volume of
processing time.
 People often quote the example of the donkey equally distant from two
water sources who can't decide, and dies of thirst (I can't remember
the technical name for this, but some philosopher put his name to it).
Sometimes irrational factors or random choosing can make a decision
where logic struggles. The ability to go "I favour X" without thinking
too much about it saves a lot of time and streamlines decision-making.
Now, given a lot of processing power you don't need these shortcuts,
but for near-term AI these shortcuts would really help. 
 We don't have to make AIs follow our evolutionary psychology - their
emotions could be made similar to ours to make it easier for the two
types of intelligence to communicate, or we could deliberately tailor
theirs to be better attuned to what they are for (territoriality and
defending the group would be fantastic emotions for an AI helping
design computer firewalls and anti-virus software, but useless for a
deep space probe).
 To summarise, I think people trying to make the "being of pure logic"
type of AI are making an uphill struggle for themselves, only to create
an intelligence many humans would have difficulty communicating with.

Tom
      __________________________________________________________
 
Tom, I can see your point, but just because we react or make choices based upon our emotions doesn't mean that 
the processing is absent. My view of it is that when we are born we have pretty much just two emotions, Happy and sad.
Anyone with children will know that while conscious, if they are not laughing they are screaming. Over time we develop
or streamline our emotional set through years of data input, calculation and trial and error. I would like to think 
the result is that specific circuits are developed to recognise the complex sensory patterns which evoke specific emotions. 
As you say, acting on emotion reduces the processing and reaction time considerably. However the processing is still being 
done at some level even if we are not directly aware of it.
The end result of this Is that we still need to process this data in our AI regardless of whether the AI
is designed to actually 'feel' it or not. We cannot just create an emotional response unless we generate completely random
responses or the triggers are very simple. 

Alex



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From ablainey at aol.com  Wed Apr 23 00:46:17 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:46:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Point of emotion
In-Reply-To: <322961.17492.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CA72F292CDDF14-D38-3204@WEBMAIL-MA01.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>


Are you suggesting that emotions are necessary prerequisite for goal-
oriented cognition? Are not certain psychopathologies like major
depression or schizoid presonality disorder characterized by a lack of
emotion? While depressed people may not be operating well in a social
sense, I don't think one could say that they no longer are capable of
complex thought. While emotions are certainly important motivators in
mating and fighting for monkey status, I am not sure they are of any
benefit in doing unpleasant tasks or tasks of marginal use to natural
selection such as scrubbing public toilets.

Not sure about schizoid personality disorder, but I would say that depression is the oposite of a lack of emotion.
I would describe it as a?very strong?negative emotion which is at such a high level that normal life becomes difficult if not imposible.
As someone that has come to except depression as a normal?part of my pyscological makeup, I would say that those depressive
periods are among the most emotional and also include the most unrelentingly complex thoughts. Which can add to the depresive cycle
even when the thoughts are not negative. Very similar to insomnia induced by a problem at work that you just can't stop trying to solve.
I would agree that love and anger?give obvious evolutionary advantage. If I read you correctly about emotions and meanial or degrading
tasks, then I think the negative emotions we associate with such jobs show that these emotions do help us to climb the status ladder.?
?Which?is related to love and reproduction.?The obvious implication is that these emotions are designed to keep us healthy so?we avoid dirty or dangerous jobs.
For other menial and marginal jobs, They just pay the bills, which is just plain survival in a mordern world.

Alex




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From ablainey at aol.com  Wed Apr 23 01:44:56 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:44:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat and Robert Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <200804221901.52664.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <480E0063.10809@insightbb.com>
	<200804221901.52664.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA72FAC41E32CC-D38-35AC@WEBMAIL-MA01.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>


I will be working with tissue engineering topics more closely soon, so I 
have a chance to implement some research strategies; harvesting some of 
the research from burn victim regenerative tissue research, plus 
Yamanaka iPS cell culturing techniques, plus the 142 different types of 
cell differentiation protocols that we know now, well, things can go 
pretty well. I think the tough part is going to be scaffolding and 
distributing nutrients to meat growing in a tank, this is known as the 
vascularization issue.


Bryan, I have been toying with the idea of red meat production for?nearly a decade?after I thought of it for a sub plot?in a never to be finished?novel.
Along with multistory crop factories powered by on sight nuclear plants which supplied both power and hot water. Seemingly Endless conveyors
of bountifully crops, inperceivably moving toward the distant robotic processors. 
Anyhoooo, from my notes and memory the concept I came up with for the meat production was a gravity or pull fed extrusion process. 
The extrusion head had multiple uniformly spaced holes mostly for muscle fibre, but also inter spaced with holes for vascular tubes. The idea was 
that above the head, stem cells which had been differentiated were fed into the corresponding holes where they?bound to the ends of rough-ended?titanium pins. These pins were attached to a puller plate which would be used to extrude the cells. The bores of the holes in the head being lined with Teflon to stop the cell adhering. 
The puller plate would be slowly extended out of the head, so that more cells would adhere to the last giving fibres of muscle. The vascular 
tubes would be much larger diameter with a stationary central mandrel tube which has two functions. the first is to ensure that the vascular extrusion 
is a tube, just like creating plastic pipe. the second function would be to feed nutrients in an oxygenated cultured blood into the centre of the newly
created artificial artery. This blood?being grown in artificial bone marrow units and having passed through a heart/lung type machine.
Once the extrusion is long enough, the pins of the puller plate are removed from the arterial tubes to give a flow through path back to the heart lung
machine.
As the artificial muscle exits the head and the blood circulation is achieved.?The artificial muscle?It is inside a liquid filled tube, which also provides 
nutrients and oxygen. The puller is then rotated to imply a twist on the muscle. This brings the fibres and arteries in contact and cell adhesion occurs.

Hopefully the end result is a long extruded artificial muscle. As this was for a piece of fiction, I took liberties with things like muscle fibre length and growth, 
no explanation of lymphatic systems or anything remotely too complex. I also included some extra's like fat cells in the nutrient liquid near the end of the production tube to?build up?a layer of fat and neurons which made the mass 'ripple with rhythmic contractions, like a thousand foot long, Skinless snake'. nice! ;o)

Perhaps I will see this unholy monster on my dinner plate in a few years? yummy. 
Its a shame it will probably ensure the extinction of cattle.
Alex

P.S, if anyone makes a working machine based on the above, I would like shares in the company and a taste of the first steak please ! LOL
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 02:36:12 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:36:12 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <8CA72CB47DA35CC-E20-20EF@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA72CB47DA35CC-E20-20EF@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804221936m413417aaw515fcc0978c98248@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/23  <ablainey at aol.com>:

> I think this comes down to whether the mind/Identity pattern is stored at
> this level or just the neural links?

Tiny doses of a small molecule like LSD can drastically change
cognition by non-covalently associating with certain receptor proteins
and slightly changing their conformation. Given this, how can you be
confident that glossing over anything below the level of the gross
structure of a neuron would preserve the integrity of your mind?



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 03:01:53 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:01:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804221936m413417aaw515fcc0978c98248@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA72CB47DA35CC-E20-20EF@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804221936m413417aaw515fcc0978c98248@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240804222001q65baa043n82d3ccee9c268136@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Stathis Papaioannou
<stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  Tiny doses of a small molecule like LSD can drastically change
>  cognition by non-covalently associating with certain receptor proteins
>  and slightly changing their conformation. Given this, how can you be
>  confident that glossing over anything below the level of the gross
>  structure of a neuron would preserve the integrity of your mind?

If you're taking doses of LSD, are you really so interested in
_preserving_ the integrity of your mind?


(sorry Stathis; statement struck me as amusingly ironic)


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 23 02:44:44 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:44:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080422110231.025a7d88@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804230311.m3N3BPvl000253@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

... 
> Damien Broderick
> Subject: Re: [ExI] The point of emotions
> 
> >People do all sorts of terrible things to characters in 
> >computer games because they don't believe they have feelings... Stathis
> 
> Any such discussion risks lurching into essentialism. 
> Arguably sadistic is as sadistic does... Damien Broderick


This reminds me of one of the very early computer games.  It worked on the
Apple 2, and dates back to the time before the American hostages were
released, so that would put it between November 79 and January 81.  In that
game, one flew a combat SAR helicopter and dropped a bomb on the door of a
prison, at which time the hostages would stream out and run towards your
helicopter.  You could pick them up, but when you dropped down, the Iranians
would shoot at you and the hostages, who were slain in large numbers.  The
hostages would run after your chopper and wave.  The score was the
percentage of the fifty one could rescue.

The graphics were awesome for the standards of the day, but eventually I
found the game too disturbing to play, for one constantly had to make
life-or-death decisions: sacrifice these two in order to rescue those three,
etc.  That was the first time I had anything resembling sympathy for
characters in a computer game.

Seems to me we could use this phenom to the advantage of humanity somehow:
sympathy for simulated beings used for spreading peace and making money.

spike




 



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 23 03:05:03 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:05:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat and Robert Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <8CA72FAC41E32CC-D38-35AC@WEBMAIL-MA01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
ablainey at aol.com
...
	...no explanation of lymphatic systems or anything remotely too
complex...

Perhaps if we had the tube of meat small enough in diameter, the nutrients
and oxygen could be carried to the cells thru osmosis, obviating all those
complicated systems.  I can imagine a tube of meat about the diameter of a
soda straw, which would then be formed into other shapes perhaps.  I can
also imagine the meat formed in sheets, like thin sliced roast beef.
Perhaps we could get it to grow in alternating layers of meat and
interstitial fluids, then at the end stage, bring the layers together to
fuse into a thick steak?

	...Perhaps I will see this unholy monster on my dinner plate in a
few years? yummy...

What's unholy about that?

	...Its a shame it will probably ensure the extinction of cattle.
Alex
	
This points out a curious tension in the logic of PETA.  If we encourage a
manufactured meat substitute, what happens if we invent something that is
far better than any animal-based meat: tastier, healthier, more vitamins,
far cheaper, etc.  Then it would decrease greenhouse gas emissions if we
slay all the superfluous beasts, all the large ruminants for instance, to
stop their incessant farting.  I could imagine humans would eventually be
among the largest terrestrial mammals on the planet.  I am not sure PETA
would be happy about that, even if it would theoretically help stop global
warming.

spike



 



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 23 03:45:35 2008
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:45:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <BLU106-DS35BABF5FB8C94B5345085A3E30@phx.gbl>

In Vitro Meat Production-Contest Rules
Summary
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) aims with this contest to 
encourage
the development and offering for sale of in vitro chicken meat in 
commercially
significant quantities. A prize of $1,000,000 is offered to the first 
successful individual,
group, or company to do so.
To receive the $1 million prize, the successful candidate must be the first 
to do both of
the following:
a) Produce an in vitro chicken-meat product that has a taste and texture
indistinguishable from real chicken flesh to non-meat-eaters and meat-eaters 
alike
b) Manufacture the approved product in large enough quantities to be sold
commercially, and successfully sell it at a competitive price in at least 10 
U.S.
states
1. Contest Definitions
1.1. Commercial Sales Minimum: The quantity of successful sales will be 
judged
according to the amount of product purchased by retail customers through 
Food
Retailers. Retail customers must purchase 2,000 lbs. of the in vitro 
chicken-meat
product in total from Food Retailers in no fewer than 10 states over a 
period of
three consecutive months, with no less than the following:
. 100 lbs. of the product sold in each state
. 20 percent of total nationwide final sales occurring in each of those 
months
1.2. Comparable Market Price: the average price-assessed at the date of the
applicable contract of sale-of boneless chicken breast offered for sale in 
the
same state. PETA will establish such averages based on U.S. Department of
Agriculture (USDA) public documents.
1.3. Contest Liaison: The contact for all submission and queries is:
Senior Projects Coordinator
Vegan Department
PETA
501 Front St.
Norfolk VA 23510
USA
VegInfo at peta.org 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 04:48:09 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:48:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <BLU106-DS35BABF5FB8C94B5345085A3E30@phx.gbl>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<BLU106-DS35BABF5FB8C94B5345085A3E30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 22 April 2008, James Clement wrote:
> In Vitro Meat Production-Contest Rules
> People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) aims with this
> contest to encourage the development and offering for sale of in vitro
> chicken meat in commercially significant quantities. A prize of
> $1,000,000 is offered to the first successful individual, group, or 
> company to do so. To receive the $1 million prize, the successful 
> candidate must be the first to do both of the following:   

Screw the 'you have to make a profit' bullshit, let's just do it. So, I 
guess we'd want to start with myogenic regulatory factors like MyoD, 
MEF2, herculin and myogenin, that's a good place to start *after* 
TFs ;). To my recollection this is the MyoD-family of gen-reg networks 
in differentiation mostly occuring during embryogenesis from stem cells 
(so plug in the Yamanaka research here - there was a public lecture on 
IRC a few weeks ago on this, I mentiond the general steps involved in 
extracting skin cells and turning them into stem cells, more or less). 
These TFs and 'regulons' can be synthetically expressed in our 
bacterial circuits, so scaling up their production is a no brainer. The 
big problem is controlling development and making sure we can get 
enough payoff per few centimeters of tissue or something. For example, 

Muscle LIM protein promotes myogenesis by enhancing MyoD.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov.ezproxy.lib.utexas.edu/articlerender.fcgi?rendertype=abstract&artid=232327
> The muscle LIM protein (MLP) is a muscle-specific LIM-only factor
> that exhibits a dual subcellular localization, being present in both
> the nucleus and in the cytoplasm. Overexpression of MLP in C2C12
> myoblasts enhances skeletal myogenesis, whereas inhibition of MLP
> activity blocks terminal differentiation. Thus, MLP functions as a
> positive developmental regulator, although the mechanism through
> which MLP promotes terminal differentiation events remains unknown.
> While examining the distinct roles associated with the nuclear and
> cytoplasmic forms of MLP, we found that nuclear MLP functions through
> a physical interaction with the muscle basic helix-loop-helix (bHLH)
> transcription factors MyoD, MRF4, and myogenin. This interaction is
> highly specific since MLP does not associate with nonmuscle bHLH
> proteins E12 or E47 or with the myocyte enhancer factor-2 (MEF2)
> protein, which acts cooperatively with the myogenic bHLH proteins to
> promote myogenesis. The first LIM motif in MLP and the highly
> conserved bHLH region of MyoD are responsible for mediating the
> association between these muscle-specific factors. MLP also interacts
> with MyoD-E47 heterodimers, leading to an increase in the DNA-binding
> activity associated with this active bHLH complex. Although MLP lacks
> a functional transcription activation domain, we propose that it
> serves as a cofactor for the myogenic bHLH proteins by increasing
> their interaction with specific DNA regulatory elements. Thus, the
> functional complex of MLP-MyoD-E protein reveals a novel mechanism
> for both initiating and maintaining the myogenic program and suggests
> a global strategy for how LIM-only proteins may control a variety of
> developmental pathways.

MEF2: a transcriptional target for signaling pathways controlling 
skeletal muscle growth and differentiation
> Skeletal muscle development involves a multistep pathway in which
> mesodermal precursor cells are selected, in response to inductive
> cues, to form myoblasts that later withdraw from the cell cycle and
> differentiate. The transcriptional circuitry controlling muscle
> differentiation is intimately linked to the cell cycle machinery,
> such that muscle differentiation genes do not become transcribed
> until myoblasts have exited the cell cycle. Members of the MyoD and
> MEF2 families of transcription factors associate combinatorially to
> control myoblast specification, differentiation and proliferation.
> Recent studies have revealed multiple signaling systems that
> stimulate and inhibit myogenesis by altering MEF2 phosphorylation and
> its association with other transcriptional cofactors.

In vitro organ culturing protocols
http://www.protocol-online.org/prot/Cell_Biology/Cell_Culture/Organ_Culture/

> Signaling By Fibroblast Growth Factors: The Inside Story
> Mitchell Goldfarb
>
> Summary: Polypeptide growth factors bind to the extracellular domains
> of cell surface receptors, triggering activation of
> receptor-intrinsic or receptor-associated protein kinases. Although
> this central thesis is widely accepted, one family of proteins, the
> fibroblast growth factors (FGFs), have for more than a decade
> attracted a research "counterculture" looking for direct FGF actions
> inside cells. Goldfarb discusses how the search for alternative
> signaling pathways is moving mainstream with the help of two recent
> publications reporting specific intracellular targets for FGF and
> FGF-like proteins.

And this one seemed impressive: Multilineage differentiation of human 
mesenchymal stem cells in a three-dimensional nanofibrous scaffold. It 
is some simple engineering and doesn't actually know what the 
mechanisms were that allowed the cell cultures to diffuse over their 
nanofabrous surface, but they were able to produce tissue stains, but 
to what extent did this allow greater volume is suspect (and wasn't 
even their goal). Growing over artificial ECMs could be an interesting 
approach if the molecular approaches detailed above can be 
simultaneously tackled.

MEF2: a transcriptional target for signaling pathways controlling
skeletal muscle growth and differentiation (1999) <-- good review.

A few months ago a particularly prominent researcher did a press release 
on her heart-in-a-jar research, she has this beating heart that you can 
actually hold, and it is wired up to their system for the circulation 
of a (small!) blood supply hooked up to the oxygen machines etc. But 
there's been lots of funding for cardiac research, methinks. 

Anyway, here's a list of strategies that I have been considering:
* one slice at a time
* total muscle-organ growth
* ECMs, scaffolds, biocompatible glues, 
** especially 3D scaffolds with small micropumps for nutrients
*** artificial vascularization
* cellular printers (the 3D printers)
* submersive nutrient tanks of just the right mix of connective + muscle

The main thing to worry about is the volume of meat produced. In many of 
these situations, researchers have previously optimized for 2D surface 
area since that gives the best access to the cells, but for volume? Not 
the same thing.

I dumped some notes over at:
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Meat_on_a_stick

Anybody want to help out?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr 23 05:34:33 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:34:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com><8CA71757F237668-1644-862@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com><8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com><200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com><007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer><f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com><002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer><f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com><8CA72CB47DA35CC-E20-20EF@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804221936m413417aaw515fcc0978c98248@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c8a503$bd4b4210$39ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Stathis Papaioannou" <stathisp at gmail.com>

> Tiny doses of a small molecule like LSD
> can drastically change cognition

But such changes are ephemeral; I'm more interested in permanent
structures. And you don't need atomic level resolution of the brain to
figure out that LSD is in the brain.

  John K Clark






From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 08:01:52 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:01:52 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes.
In-Reply-To: <001e01c8a503$bd4b4210$39ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA71767987CCF7-714-2DCF@webmail-mf10.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804202306.50744.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<007f01c8a3c4$eab05000$a4ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804211657j75d8c58an106bd53f93f7e58b@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c8a479$20488200$5dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30804220644n3fecf373re4df91f385bee11c@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA72CB47DA35CC-E20-20EF@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804221936m413417aaw515fcc0978c98248@mail.gmail.com>
	<001e01c8a503$bd4b4210$39ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804230101m5ca1642em391b8609a0f179e9@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/23 John K Clark <jonkc at att.net>:

>  But such changes are ephemeral; I'm more interested in permanent
>  structures. And you don't need atomic level resolution of the brain to
>  figure out that LSD is in the brain.

That the changes are reversible when the LSD is removed doesn't
matter: you'd better make sure that you don't include *permanent*
structural changes of the same magnitude in the simulation.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From benboc at lineone.net  Wed Apr 23 07:48:17 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:48:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Economics 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <480EE9C1.9000804@lineone.net>

Economics 2


In a reply to the thread "Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes",
Keith Henson wrote:

>There are extremely serious problems that face us in the very near
>future, and even worse ones slightly further out.  I would like to see
>more serious discussion, but it doesn't happen very often.



OK, challenge accepted!

Well, maybe.

Here's a concept from a work of fiction (Stross' Accelerando), that gave
me the willies: Economics 2. The idea is that a Singularity almost
inevitably leads to a super-efficient economic system that leaves no
room for the kinds of mental activities that we value so much, like
enjoying life, fun-having, etc. In fact, it's so efficient that it
basically squeezes out all trace of consciousness.

Is that likely to be one of the serious problems that we face? If it's
even the tiniest bit likely, how could we avoid it?

It sounds to me like the kind of attractor that, if it got started,
would suck everybody and everything in.

This is the kind of nightmare scenario that i hope somebody can
convincingly demonstrate belongs firmly in the realm of fiction (i.e.
can provably never happen).

ben zaiboc



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 13:04:45 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:04:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <480CF113.3030705@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<019e01c8a1ad$3b893100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804181816vf962ce0j30f794658426e8d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<480CF113.3030705@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804230604t27b399b1xdd789309f55ac79c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>  I ran into my own tissue concoction talking back to me recently. The other
> day my teen daughter decided not to clean her room and stated that she never
> asked to be born and that she resents all the stuff we make her do (which is
> almost nothing but she sees it otherwise). Of course she can claim
> self-ownership, which means I can't harm her.

### Well, self-ownership doesn't mean she may not be harmed, it only
means that she may not be subjected to violence. This is not the same,
since you may choose to inflict harm on her by rescinding your
permission for her to enter your house, or eat at your table. After
all, unless she earns it, she only owns herself...

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 14:07:02 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:07:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Critarchy
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804210540h43e20edl5910f99bd8942451@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804190734n1e24ebb1j76cff2f9808f513@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804210540h43e20edl5910f99bd8942451@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804230707g2e9a1c4brf66d053b29a0fb1e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 8:40 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/04/2008, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  >  > I don't see how you could allow courts without allowing everything
>  >  > else that you don't like about government.
>  >
>  >  ### Too little time to address this very interesting issue at length
>  >  (I am on call and consults are piling up) but I would suggest you
>  >  investigate "critarchy". You will find some references on the web.
>
>  The web references (most spell it with a "k") often refer to Somalia.
>  I must admit, it is exciting if such an impoverished, war-damaged
>  country can make a go of anarchism:
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia
>
>  And from the Wikipedia article on Kritarchy:
>
>  "Under kritarchy even courts of law, police forces and other
>  organizations that look after the day-to-day business of maintaining
>  law, are denied any power, privilege or immunity that is not in
>  conformity with natural law.
>
>   (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritarchy)
>
>  That all sounds fine, but it begs the question, who decides what is
>  natural law and what if I don't agree with the decision?
>
### I think that the Wikipedia puts too much emphasis on the natural
rights aspect of critarchy (or kritarchy). For me the main issue is
segmentation, the fact that separate legal systems (subnetworks) exist
in the same area, and are easily accessible. This is similar to having
a number of different news/information channels available to you: word
of mouth, terrestrial phone, cell phone, TV, cable TV, satellite
phone, internet, newspapers, paging network, CB radio, ham radio...
the list goes on. If you have so many independent networks, they can
partially substitute for each other, behaving like a large network
while maintaining high reliability - but only as long as the
subnetworks are truly independent. In this situation a networked mode
of failure does not propagate to other subnetworks, and you still have
access to information even if major disturbances occur.

If you have the choice of various providers of the law, you are much
less likely to become a victim of the law (and of course you will be
less able to victimize others by supporting a law). If you don't agree
with you current judge's decision about a case, you fire the judge,
thus making sure that his decisions will not affect you if you are
directly involved in a similar case. The "natural law" of critarchy
would be something that emerges from the daily interactions of judges
and their clients, and of course would not be the Platonic ideal set
in stone as envisioned by many conservatives.

Rafal


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr 23 16:06:07 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 11:06:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>

See Russell Blackford's blog entry on transhumanism,

http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/

and especially the comments:

<https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=24761391&postID=3749500042141962458>

where Greg Egan offers remarks such as:

<The word "transhumanism" (or, even worse, "posthumanism") sounds 
like a suicide note for the species, which effectively renders it a 
political suicide note for any movement by that name. No doubt there 
are people prepared to spend 90% of their time and energy explaining 
that they didn't *intend* any negative connotations, but this is not 
one of those cases where other people will be to blame if 
"transhumanists" are reviled as the enemies of humanity on purely 
linguistic grounds. It's no use people proclaiming "Please, read my 
1,000-page manifesto, don't just look at one word!" The name is 
stupid, and anyone who doesn't drop it deserves the consequences.

And I'm not sure quite how much solidarity I'm compelled to have with 
someone, just because they've also noticed that we're not going to 
see out the millennium with physical substrates identical to those 
we've had for the last 200,000 years. People who think their manifest 
destiny is to turn Jupiter into computronium so they can play 10^20 
characters simultaneously in their favourite RPG are infinitely more 
odious and dangerous than the average person who thinks this whole 
subject is science-fictional gibberish and would really just like to 
have 2.3 children that are members of his/her own species, so long as 
they don't have cystic fibrosis and live a slightly better life than 
their parents. >

Damien Broderick 



From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr 23 20:00:29 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:00:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<BLU106-DS35BABF5FB8C94B5345085A3E30@phx.gbl>
	<200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>


>
> Anyway, here's a list of strategies that I have been considering:
> * one slice at a time
> * total muscle-organ growth
> * ECMs, scaffolds, biocompatible glues, 
> ** especially 3D scaffolds with small micropumps for nutrients
> *** artificial vascularization
> * cellular printers (the 3D printers)
> * submersive nutrient tanks of just the right mix of connective + muscle
>
>
>   
I don't think that the vascularization or the scaffolds are an issue. 
The rules don't specify that it has to be like a chicken muscle. I think 
it would be fine if we could make sheets, grind them and make chicken 
nuggets. Maybe McDonald's should get in on the research funding.


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr 23 20:10:51 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:10:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Adding to the extended essay on the complex systems problem
Message-ID: <480F97CB.1020807@lightlink.com>

Yesterday and today I have added more posts (susaro.com) relating to the 
definition of complex systems and why this should be a problem for AGI 
research.




Richard Loosemore



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 21:07:08 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:07:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804231407w3475fa4ao7b8b35ee935fda5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> where Greg Egan offers remarks such as:
>
> <The word "transhumanism" (or, even worse, "posthumanism") sounds
> like a suicide note for the species, which effectively renders it a
> political suicide note for any movement by that name. No doubt there
> are people prepared to spend 90% of their time and energy explaining
> that they didn't *intend* any negative connotations, but this is not
> one of those cases where other people will be to blame if
> "transhumanists" are reviled as the enemies of humanity on purely
> linguistic grounds. It's no use people proclaiming "Please, read my
> 1,000-page manifesto, don't just look at one word!" The name is
> stupid, and anyone who doesn't drop it deserves the consequences.
>
> And I'm not sure quite how much solidarity I'm compelled to have with
> someone, just because they've also noticed that we're not going to
> see out the millennium with physical substrates identical to those
> we've had for the last 200,000 years. People who think their manifest
> destiny is to turn Jupiter into computronium so they can play 10^20
> characters simultaneously in their favourite RPG are infinitely more
> odious and dangerous than the average person who thinks this whole
> subject is science-fictional gibberish and would really just like to
> have 2.3 children that are members of his/her own species, so long as
> they don't have cystic fibrosis and live a slightly better life than
> their parents. >

I have long agreed with Egan.  Three years ago, I was saying on the
WTA site that the word "transhumanism" conjured up the image of that
handful of men (note the gender) who could run fast enough to catch
the train of radical evolution, leaving everyone else behind on the
platform.

Unfortunately, some people have both a personal and historical
investment in the word and are reluctant to change it.

I also agree that the far future scenarios for which transhumanism is
known can be very destructive in the wrong hands when they no longer
resemble SF literary meditations and instead resemble a wishlist.
Humanity is changing now, so let's deal with the present problems on
the ground.  We're up to our eyeballs in transhumanism in the present,
if anyone bothered to notice.

I'm the type who believes in searching for something that works better
rather than sticking to something that works badly just because it's
there.  Brands are malleable and anyone's ideas on a more user
friendly image are welcome by me.  For instance, I liked H+, but got
grief from the chemists.  Fair enough.  Please feel free to brainstorm
here or on the WTA site or just pass them on.  I look forward to your
thoughts.

PJ


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Apr 23 22:02:03 2008
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:02:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<BLU106-DS35BABF5FB8C94B5345085A3E30@phx.gbl>
	<200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <37536.12.77.168.234.1208988123.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


>
> The rules don't specify that it has to be like a chicken muscle. I think
> it would be fine if we could make sheets, grind them and make chicken
> nuggets. Maybe McDonald's should get in on the research funding.
>

There's a lot to this.  The other day I was given a package of BurgerKing Chicken
Fries. They were tasty - all that grease and salt! Heaven knows what-all I could eat
prepared that way. ;)

Maybe layering sheets and then rolling them up to give some body/thickness?

Just avoid McDonald's McRibs... they were like dried out baby food pressed into a
strange shape. Failure, IMHO.  No "chew", or "all wrong chew".

Regards,
MB



From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 22:24:33 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:24:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804231724.33182.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 23 April 2008, Kevin Freels wrote:
> I don't think that the vascularization or the scaffolds are an issue.
> The rules don't specify that it has to be like a chicken muscle. I
> think it would be fine if we could make sheets, grind them and make
> chicken nuggets. Maybe McDonald's should get in on the research
> funding.

The problem with sheets is the surface area to volume issue plus 
dependencies on the amount of nutrients that can be supplied to the 
cells. So a giant 2D grid of cells. Okay, that's great, you can 
effortlessly get nutrients to them since you have both sides 
accessible, but then this means that you also have tons of overhead per 
slice, and how many slices are you going to need to do in order to get 
any significant output?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 01:11:09 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:11:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Economics 2
In-Reply-To: <480EE9C1.9000804@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<480EE9C1.9000804@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804231811i6a077969ldaee4be65c262cb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:48 AM, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:

snip

>  Here's a concept from a work of fiction (Stross' Accelerando), that gave
>  me the willies: Economics 2. The idea is that a Singularity almost
>  inevitably leads to a super-efficient economic system that leaves no
>  room for the kinds of mental activities that we value so much, like
>  enjoying life, fun-having, etc. In fact, it's so efficient that it
>  basically squeezes out all trace of consciousness.

I read Acclerando.  I really like Charles Stross' work.  He sometimes
reads this list and posts here.

>  Is that likely to be one of the serious problems that we face?

I doubt it.

>  If it's even the tiniest bit likely, how could we avoid it?
>
>  It sounds to me like the kind of attractor that, if it got started,
>  would suck everybody and everything in.

Our current understanding of economics makes underlying assumptions
that may or may not be even true.  Economics needs to be rooted in
biology and that has not been done yet.  We have discount economics
along the time dimension, with things becoming less valuable as the
promise of them recedes into the future.  Something like that occurs
with distance.  For example, the resources of the asteroid belt are
currently worthless.

How this translates to a post singularity world is extremely hard to say.

>  This is the kind of nightmare scenario that i hope somebody can
>  convincingly demonstrate belongs firmly in the realm of fiction (i.e.
>  can provably never happen).

I don't think "economics 2" is spelled out in enough detail to decide.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 01:33:10 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:33:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804221502q68f3b736o35904750ab0dde8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<051f01c8a440$aabe7590$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<052901c8a445$fb6ccf50$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804221502q68f3b736o35904750ab0dde8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804231833o76a6ac36k575113c13bafa93c@mail.gmail.com>

Ric Strongitharm wrote/quoted:
"Faith, the size of a mountain, can't budge a mustard seed."
>>>

Ahh, but what is the nature of faith?  Absolute 100% belief as a motivating
force for action can work wonders.

John  : )
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From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 24 02:03:08 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:03:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <200804231724.33182.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>	<480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>
	<200804231724.33182.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA73C679AE4149-B18-4706@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>

From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>



The problem with sheets is the surface area to volume issue plus 
dependencies on the amount of nutrients that can be supplied to the 
cells. So a giant 2D grid of cells. Okay, that's great, you can 
effortlessly get nutrients to them since you have both sides 
accessible, but then this means that you also have tons of overhead per 
slice, and how many slices are you going to need to do in order to get 
any significant output?

Perhaps a system similar to paper manufacturing, where the cells are separated out from solution by a?fine mesh drum.
?Or even attached to a dissolvable paper-like substrate. The finished meat paper would be rolled up to get bulk.?
A few downsides I can think off are?that it would need to be timed exactly to the cell development and the entire operation would need to be 
under fluid. This gives lots of worries about contamination from roller lubricants and wear particles coming from the machinery.
Also dealing with a breakage or tear in the meat sheet would be hell. You would need to send in the sterile scuba diving mechanic.
It is feasible though, Albeit with lots of very careful design.

Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Thu Apr 24 02:12:32 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:12:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Economics 2
In-Reply-To: <480EE9C1.9000804@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<480EE9C1.9000804@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <480FEC90.7030503@insightbb.com>

Unfortunately this is a reality. As you can see there are already a good 
many people content to shut out leisurely discussion in favor of 
improved efficiency.


ben wrote:
> Economics 2
>
>
> In a reply to the thread "Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes",
> Keith Henson wrote:
>
>   
>> There are extremely serious problems that face us in the very near
>> future, and even worse ones slightly further out.  I would like to see
>> more serious discussion, but it doesn't happen very often.
>>     
>
>
>
> OK, challenge accepted!
>
> Well, maybe.
>
> Here's a concept from a work of fiction (Stross' Accelerando), that gave
> me the willies: Economics 2. The idea is that a Singularity almost
> inevitably leads to a super-efficient economic system that leaves no
> room for the kinds of mental activities that we value so much, like
> enjoying life, fun-having, etc. In fact, it's so efficient that it
> basically squeezes out all trace of consciousness.
>
> Is that likely to be one of the serious problems that we face? If it's
> even the tiniest bit likely, how could we avoid it?
>
> It sounds to me like the kind of attractor that, if it got started,
> would suck everybody and everything in.
>
> This is the kind of nightmare scenario that i hope somebody can
> convincingly demonstrate belongs firmly in the realm of fiction (i.e.
> can provably never happen).
>
> ben zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Thu Apr 24 02:17:08 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:17:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <200804231724.33182.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>
	<200804231724.33182.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480FEDA4.9090709@insightbb.com>



Bryan Bishop wrote:
> On Wednesday 23 April 2008, Kevin Freels wrote:
>   
>> I don't think that the vascularization or the scaffolds are an issue.
>> The rules don't specify that it has to be like a chicken muscle. I
>> think it would be fine if we could make sheets, grind them and make
>> chicken nuggets. Maybe McDonald's should get in on the research
>> funding.
>>     
>
> The problem with sheets is the surface area to volume issue plus 
> dependencies on the amount of nutrients that can be supplied to the 
> cells. So a giant 2D grid of cells. Okay, that's great, you can 
> effortlessly get nutrients to them since you have both sides 
> accessible, but then this means that you also have tons of overhead per 
> slice, and how many slices are you going to need to do in order to get 
> any significant output?
>
>
>   
Yes, but that's an engineering problem that will take some trial and 
error. Simply getting the maximum sheet thickness possible without 
having to resort to scaffolds and vessels. I'm starting to think this is 
another problem for the ink jet printer.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 24 02:34:57 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:34:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <480FEDA4.9090709@insightbb.com>
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<200804222348.10068.kanzure@gmail.com>	<480F955D.8060601@insightbb.com>	<200804231724.33182.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<480FEDA4.9090709@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <8CA73CAEB3E5361-B18-48AF@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>

From: Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>

Yes, but that's an engineering problem that will take some trial and error. Simply getting the maximum sheet thickness possible without having to resort to scaffolds and vessels. I'm starting to think this is another problem for the ink jet printer. 

Printing may be a good method, it would be excellent if we need to lay down cells in specific patterns or mixtures of type.?You would need to choose the printer type carefully as many printer technologies use excessive heat to fire the ink. Like?tens of thousands of degrees?or more for some bubble jets (so I have heard).
Also many others use excessive pressure or may?cause to much G force for the cells, so the printer would need to be a fairly simple squirter type.

Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 24 02:11:28 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:11:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <200804231724.33182.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804240238.m3O2cAhY001045@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> Bryan Bishop
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Fame meat
> 
> On Wednesday 23 April 2008, Kevin Freels wrote:
> > I don't think that the vascularization or the scaffolds are 
> an issue.
> > The rules don't specify that it has to be like a chicken muscle. I 
> > think it would be fine if we could make sheets, grind them and make 
> > chicken nuggets. Maybe McDonald's should get in on the research 
> > funding.
> 
> The problem with sheets is the surface area to volume issue 
> plus dependencies on the amount of nutrients that can be 
> supplied to the cells...how many 
> slices are you going to need to do in order to get any 
> significant output?
> 
> - Bryan


Imagine a stack of thin sheets a cm apart with 0.5 cm dimeter thru-holes on
about 4 cm centers.  The stack could be a couple meters deep, giving you a
couple hundred sheets of meat.  Nutrient fluids flow thru the holes to reach
all the stacks.  The stacks are taken apart and harvested by machine after a
week.  You have 200 sheets, say 3 mm thick, two meters on a side, that's
.003*2*2*200 is about 2400 liters of meat, which is about 3000 kg.  How much
is that worth?  How many proles could that feed?  What is 3 tons in beasts?
About 6?  Any beast experts here?  What if it took a month to grow 3 cm?
Six beast-equivalents per month?

spike




From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 03:23:17 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:23:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><609336.37789.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><f21c22e30804210443o249303e7x2012f4f9d703ef6f@mail.gmail.com><580930c20804210511r825fc66pe8c8f44e2e83fe8a@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30804210554n4a82d4bcn698a7949eaadef60@mail.gmail.com><580930c20804210718r720747ccg344c6ff57d05d08f@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30804220430q591ac67dq7a6270e6f1b9d8f5@mail.gmail.com><580930c20804220526u64ff7c02me2227df534de1ea7@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804220638m25b714cenc76c64b0def85b38@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05d801c8a5ba$a9140220$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stathis, Stefano, and Damien discuss:

Stathis writes
> Stefano wrote:
>> Stathis wrote:
>>  >  There are also practical and theoretical consequences to the theory
>>  >  that other people have feelings; whether we can torture them with
>>  >  impunity, for example.

The *impunity* with which cruelty can be undertaken needs
to be kept quite separate from whether we approve of it or
not (and of course how much, if any, the targets of the cruelty
actually suffer).

>>  Are there really? Many would assume that torturing without reason
>>  something or somebody who persuasively show bad feelings about it
>>  denotes sadistic instincts anyway, whatever the subject may "really"
>>  feel.
> 
> Not really. People do all sorts of terrible things to characters in
> computer games because they don't believe they have feelings,
> but only *act* [behave] as if they have feelings. Myself, I eschew
> such behaviour, but I won't call those who enjoy it sadistic.

I think that this is correct, because we seem to have developed
a generation of people almost all of whom would recoil from
real-life infliction of gratuitous pain, yet who inflict it with abandon
in on imaginary characters. (E.g., we would not want to call
certain authors "sadistic", which Damien addresses a bit below.) 

Stefano again:

>>  It is... reasonable to make similar assumptions about
>>  other biological or non-biological entities that exhibit a
>>  phenomenally similar behaviour in this respect, as natural empathy
>>  tends to dictate anyway.
> 
> Oh yes, I wasn't disputing [that we rightly should extend to animals
> or non-biological entities our same approvals and disapprovals].
> What I was disputing is the idea that we *treat* [emphasis added]
> others as having minds while remaining agnostic on, or indifferent to,
> the question of whether or not they have minds.

I think that you are saying that if it is given that we behave towards
others as though they have experiences, we ought not remain
indifferent as to whether they actually *have* experiences. 
I agree. To do otherwise is to abuse terms.

The converse carries the moral imperative: given that they have
experiences, we ought to care about the quality of those experiences.

>> People do all sorts of terrible things to characters in
>> computer games because they don't believe they have
>> feelings,

Let me comment upon this again. First, we don't know
the proper explanation that people do terrible things to 
game characters---in some cases, indeed, darkly it could
be as you were hinting: they can get away with it with
absolute impunity (at present). Or it could be, as you say,
that it is supposed that the game characters are not real.

Damien comments

>> Any such discussion risks lurching into essentialism. Arguably 
>> sadistic is as sadistic does.

I don't think so. It's too easily believable that there are some
people who really enjoy inflicting pain, but are held up by
moral concerns from ever actually doing it.

>> [Novelists do terrible things to imaginary characters
>> a lot, for their own motives and the delectation of
>> their readers)

That has certainly seemed to me to be the case. Now I
have found that the exacting of revenge is one thing, but
that the thrills some authors evidently get from (imaginarily)
tormenting "bad" people---or people with whom they have
a political or philosophical disagreement---is a little depraved. 

>> It seems plausible enough to me that doing terrible things
>> to imaginary characters... is  a form of displacement of
>> [people's] own real urges toward entities in the real world. 

Yes, but even though this does seem a little depraved, it's
small potatoes compared to actually approving of tormenting
in real life those they despise.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 03:43:29 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:43:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
References: <200804230332.m3N3VkuK004648@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <05ff01c8a5bd$781197c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Spike writes

> ...Its a shame it will probably ensure the extinction of cattle.

Yes, that's a point I've made for years. Namely, what would
a true "cattle advocate" say for his clients?  I claim that he'd
be completely in favor of the present system, only with 
stronger guarantees against unpleasant conditions for cows.

> This points out a curious tension in the logic of PETA.  If we encourage a
> manufactured meat substitute, what happens if we invent something that is
> far better than any animal-based meat: tastier, healthier, more vitamins,
> far cheaper, etc.  Then it would decrease greenhouse gas emissions if we
> slay all the superfluous beasts, all the large ruminants for instance, to
> stop their incessant farting.

Quite right.

> ...I am not sure PETA would be [should be] happy about that,
> even if it would theoretically help stop global warming.

Evidently, as James posted, PETA is in favor of genocide in the
case of cattle and other animals raised for meat. (Naturally, they
would prefer that presently existing such animals be allowed to
die from old age.)

The tension you speak of runs all the way through debates on
euthanasia to debates on population control. Me, I'm in favor
of our genocide of inferior animals who compete with humans
for resources.  (Wow! Am I inviting attack. But note that if
I had said *exactly the same thing* in other words, my views
would actually be fully supported by practically everyone.)

Watch:  "Me, I'm in favor of replacing our raising and breeding
of animal livestocks by artificial products."  Quite the same thing.

The common answer to all sorts of these questions is to embrace
principles such as the following:

* so long as a life is worth living (experiencing) it is better
   to be alive than dead
* the more entities that get to live, the better, in proportion
   to how sentient or sensitive or advanced are the entities
   in question
* those who believe that we would be better off with sixty
   millions of humans instead of six billions of humans, should
   recognize that their own chance at life would have been
   proportionally diminished, and they should consider the
   unacceptable ethical consequence of so depriving billions
   in the future
* terminally ill persons who have no prospects for further
   life worth living (according to their own values) ought to
   be encouraged to either die or to be frozen

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 03:52:16 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:52:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] US life expectancy stagnant and/or declining
References: <480E00B0.4020002@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <060b01c8a5be$e0b1ff30$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Kevin writes

> Interesting article as we were recently debating the public health system:
>
> http://www.physorg.com/news128062959.html
>
> Life expectancy no longer improving for large segment
> of the US population...

Another one of these infuriating studies that seem to willfully disregard
demographic changes. You absolutely have to control for race and
ethnicity to make sense of so many developments. It happens to be
the case that the fastest growing segments of the American population
have shorter life spans, almost surely resulting in great part from genetic
predisposition.

Ah, but I must ward off knee-jerk overreaction:  No, I am *not*
saying that this is not a concern, nor am I saying that the Americans
need not improve public health to raise the overall statistics. I am
merely pointing out that a reading of such a study could give one
entirely the wrong impressions concerning the true cause and effect.

Lee

> One of the major aims of the U.S. health system is improving the health
> of all people, particularly those segments of the population at greater
> risk of health disparities. In fact, overall life expectancy in the U.S.
> increased more than seven years for men and more than six years for
> women between 1960 and 2000.
>
> Now, a new, long-term study of mortality trends in U.S. counties over
> the same four decades reports a troubling finding: These gains are not
> reaching many parts of the country; rather, the life expectancy of a
> significant segment of the population is declining or at best stagnating.
>
> Researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) and the
> University of Washington found that 4% of the male population and 19% of
> the female population experienced either decline or stagnation in
> mortality beginning in the 1980s.
>
> ?There has always been a view in U.S. health policy that inequalities
> are more tolerable as long as everyone?s health is improving. There is
> now evidence that there are large parts of the population in the United
> States whose health has been getting worse for about two decades,? said
> Majid Ezzati, Associate Professor of International Health at HSPH and
> lead author of the study.
>
> The majority of the counties that had the worst downward swings in life
> expectancy were in the Deep South, along the Mississippi River, and in
> Appalachia, extending into the southern portion of the Midwest and into
> Texas.
>
> The researchers analyzed mortality data from the National Center for
> Health Statistics
> and population data from the U.S. Census Bureau between 1959 and 2001.
> The study is the first to look at mortality trends in the U.S. by county
> over such a long period of time. (County data is the smallest measurable
> unit for which mortality data is available.) The National Center for
> Health Statistics stopped providing data after 2001.
>
> The results showed that, between 1961 and 1999, average life expectancy
> in the U.S. increased from 66.9 to 74.1 years for men and from 73.5 to
> 79.6 for women. Looking at individual counties, however, the researchers
> found that beginning in the 1980s, the best-off counties continued to
> improve but there was a stagnation or worsening of life expectancy in
> the worst-off counties--what the researchers refer to as ?the reversal
> of fortunes.? As a result, while men in the best-off counties lived 9.0
> years longer than those in the worst-off counties in 1983, by 1999 that
> gap had increased to 11.0 years; for women the 1983 life expectancy gap
> of 6.7 years increased to 7.5 years by 1999. Over the past few decades,
> life expectancy in high-income countries around the world has gradually
> risen, with few exceptions.
>
> Given the consistent trend of declining mortality rates in high-income
> countries, the results of this study, which show large segments of the
> American population experiencing stagnating or worsening health
> conditions, are particularly troubling. Ezzati said, ?The finding that
> 4% of the male population and 19% of the female population experienced
> either decline or stagnation in mortality is a major public health
> concern.? Christopher Murray, Director of the Institute for Health
> Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington and co-author of
> the study, added that ?life expectancy decline is something that has
> traditionally been considered a sign that the health and social systems
> have failed, as has been the case in parts of Africa and Eastern Europe.
> The fact that is happening to a large number of Americans should be a
> sign that the U.S. health system needs serious rethinking.?
>
> The researchers also analyzed data on deaths from different diseases and
> showed that the stagnation and worsening mortality was primarily a
> result of an increase in diabetes, cancers and chronic obstructive
> pulmonary disease, combined with a slowdown or halt in improvements in
> cardiovascular mortality. An increase in HIV/AIDS and homicides also
> played a role for men, but not for women.
>
> The diseases that are responsible for this troubling trend seem to be
> most related to smoking, high blood pressure, and obesity. ?Smoking and
> blood pressure have a long history of being controlled through both
> personal and population strategies. There is good evidence on relatively
> low-cost and effective ways of dealing with these issues if one of the
> health system?s imperatives becomes to close this widening life
> expectancy gap,? said Ezzati.
>
> Source: Harvard School of Public Health



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 03:54:42 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:54:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<01d601c8a1b7$3e69fe40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a6a17bd40804191324m756b6f41n18add7474608e5ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<051f01c8a440$aabe7590$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<052901c8a445$fb6ccf50$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804221502q68f3b736o35904750ab0dde8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <061901c8a5bf$94d73ed0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rick writes

> I'm sorry.  I... should have deleted [a word tending
> to give the appearance of misattribution]

Quite all right. I understand you're new to our conventions
here.

>With respect, I have a lot of reading to do to catch up
> on the references provided above, so if it would be
> appropriate, I'll spend some very interesting time reviewing.
> 
> Thank you, all.

You're very welcome, Rick.

Lee



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 04:10:34 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:10:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist and Proud of It was Re: Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804232110q2c7ca447lbb521e411393aaa2@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> See Russell Blackford's blog entry on transhumanism,
>
>  http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/
>
>  and especially the comments:
>
>  <https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=24761391&postID=3749500042141962458>
>
>  where Greg Egan offers remarks such as:
>
>  <The word "transhumanism" (or, even worse, "posthumanism") sounds
>  like a suicide note for the species, which effectively renders it a
>  political suicide note for any movement by that name. No doubt there
>  are people prepared to spend 90% of their time and energy explaining
>  that they didn't *intend* any negative connotations, but this is not
>  one of those cases where other people will be to blame if
>  "transhumanists" are reviled as the enemies of humanity on purely
>  linguistic grounds. It's no use people proclaiming "Please, read my
>  1,000-page manifesto, don't just look at one word!" The name is
>  stupid, and anyone who doesn't drop it deserves the consequences.
>
>  And I'm not sure quite how much solidarity I'm compelled to have with
>  someone, just because they've also noticed that we're not going to
>  see out the millennium with physical substrates identical to those
>  we've had for the last 200,000 years. People who think their manifest
>  destiny is to turn Jupiter into computronium so they can play 10^20
>  characters simultaneously in their favourite RPG are infinitely more
>  odious and dangerous than the average person who thinks this whole
>  subject is science-fictional gibberish and would really just like to
>  have 2.3 children that are members of his/her own species, so long as
>  they don't have cystic fibrosis and live a slightly better life than
>  their parents. >
>
>  Damien Broderick
>
### Damien quoted some remarks by Greg Egan, and let me do some
disagreeing here:

I don't care how Joe Schmoe might (mis)understand "transhumanism". To
me it means the desire to transcend our biological limits, to be
better humans, plain and simple. In a discussion it takes me less than
a minute to explain what I mean by this word, and if my interlocutor
disagrees, it's with the substance, not with the word itself. Unless a
bunch of Joe's with pitchforks show up in my backyard, I will proudly
proclaim myself a transhumanist.

And yeah, I am a white male with a computer. You got a problem with it
- go fuck yourself.

Rafal

BTW, Egan's remarks are all rhetoric, and no substance. Of course, he
predicts our near future just as most transhumanists do. He is smart,
he knows what we know and then some. He wants what most transhumanists
do - not to be bothered by jerks telling us what kind of medical
treatments are sufficiently non-repugnant to be magnanimously
permitted. So what exactly is his problem with transhumanism? Male
menopause? Well, whatever.


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 04:18:53 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:18:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Economics 2
References: <mailman.52.1208741087.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<480EE9C1.9000804@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <062401c8a5c2$647225e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Ben writes

> Here's a concept from a work of fiction (Stross' Accelerando), that gave
> me the willies: Economics 2. The idea is that a Singularity almost
> inevitably leads to a super-efficient economic system that leaves no
> room for the kinds of mental activities that we value so much, like
> enjoying life, fun-having, etc. In fact, it's so efficient that it
> basically squeezes out all trace of consciousness.
> 
> Is that likely to be one of the serious problems that we face? If it's
> even the tiniest bit likely, how could we avoid it?

It is a serious problem indeed. But it's part of a much more
general problem, namely, just what room will there be for
humans or human feelings in a world dominated by vastly
superior creatures (who, I'll wager, have an inexhaustible
demand for more resources)? 

On this dimension, Stross's "Economics 2" is like a singularity
in slow motion.

Let's take several cases:

1. The ruling AIs observe property rights and so people get
    to own at least the body atoms that made them up at
    the point the big S hits

In this case, the wiser people will upload and use their
resources (possibly even extra-bodily resources that
they got to keep) to evolve themselves into vastly more
intelligent entities. Again, as wise people, I claim, they'll
always provide earlier versions of themselves with at
least some runtime, at least  because they fear that they
too will be supplanted. But your problem now becomes,
"will the advanced copies of us retain 'fun' and 'enjoyment',
or will competition force them to abandon these as luxuries?
(Me, I'll let Lee+ decide that for himself, being quite happy
if Lee 2000, Lee 2005, etc., all get some runtime.)

2. The ruling AIs get rid of lower life forms with the same
    alacrity that we clean our bathrooms.

In this case, it all depends on just how competitive their
situation truly is. Again, will any (who possibly evolved
with 'pleasure', 'fun', 'entertainment' and so on) manage
to carry on?  Or will they find themselves on a path to
extinction at the hands of their more advanced competitors,
who, again, might dispose of them tout suite?
   
It would be a good idea here to deploy the space dimension
in addition to the time dimension, as Vernor Vinge did so
astoundingly well in "Fire Upon The Deep". We imagine
the inferior creatures sending present, relatively fixed, copies
of themselves away from Sol at nearly the speed of light in
order to escape the holocaust.

So in an image inverted from Vinge's, the "depths" this time
we have the "thinking depths" that one must always flee directly
away from (i.e., get out of the galaxy) as soon as your copies
can manage. And it is these folk that we can identify with, and
for whom we can wish the best. 

Lee



From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Apr 24 04:08:15 2008
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry Colvin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:08:15 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ExI] Silver tongues: Regulators are looking more closely at
 nanotechnology claims
Message-ID: <20391917.1209010096048.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

< http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11043927 >

Science & Technology
Nanotechnology

Silver tongues
Apr 17th 2008 | NEW YORK
>From The Economist print edition

Regulators are looking more closely at nanotechnology claims 


ANCIENT Phoenicians stored their drinking water in silver vessels, but not for aesthetic reasons. They discovered that by doing so they remained healthier. The reason for that is now understood: silver has antimicrobial properties. 

In the 21st century people have realised that if you fortify Phoenician wisdom with a dash of nanotechnology, silver can be made into a far more potent bactericide. Companies have quickly seized on this idea to produce a wide variety of products, from clothes to soap and even chopsticks, containing silver nanoparticles. The claim is that they destroy germs.

But silver can also accumulate in the environment and, at certain levels, prove toxic. Nor is the general safety of nanoparticles fully understood, not least because they can react in novel ways. Some scientists think more research is needed and perhaps more regulation too. A move in that direction now seems to be under way.

Silver's natural germ-killing ability stems from its extremely slow release of silver ions (electrically charged atoms, or groups of atoms). When made into particles only a few nanometres big?a nanometre is a billionth of a metre?they shed a lot more ions and so become more potent.

America's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is worried about a large number of products claiming antimicrobial abilities. One is ?Silver Wash?, a washing machine made by Samsung, which claims to employ nanotechnology to release hundreds of billions of silver ions during a wash to sanitise fabrics. 

The EPA has ruled that ion-generating devices that claim to kill germs must be registered as a pesticide and tested to show they pose no unreasonable risk. The EPA says its intention is to regulate ion-generating devices rather than nanotechnology itself. But it is hard to draw a distinction. Andrew Maynard, chief science adviser for the Project on Emerging Nanotechnologies at the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars in Washington, DC, says functionality is an important part of the definition. Turning silver into tiny particles that behave in new ways (for example, by shedding more ions) and putting those particles into new places (such as fabrics) qualifies?or so he thinks.

One consequence of dividing a substance into nanoparticles is that the surface area of the material greatly expands. ?Nanosilver is so tiny it can go right to the surface of an organism and essentially shoot ions into the organism,? says Sam Luoma, a research scientist at the John Muir Institute of the Environment at the University of California, Davis. Although this makes silver nanoparticles an extremely effective antimicrobial agent, it also raises concerns about humans' ability to withstand relatively high exposures.

Despite the unknowns, Dr Luoma and others believe there is enormous potential for good from nanosilver. It can, for example, be used in small amounts to coat medical catheters to reduce the possibility of infection without causing environmental worries. ?We need to separate out the truly beneficial uses,? he adds.

The EPA will not look at benefit or necessity, but is determined to make its registration stick. It has fined one company more than $200,000 for making unsubstantiated claims about unregistered nanosilver-coated computer mice and keyboards. Firms making claims about nanotechnology need to watch out.


Terry W. Colvin
Sierra Vista, Arizona


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Wed Apr 23 16:29:09 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:29:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550804230929l5e5a9a86hf8c977dc417fe056@mail.gmail.com>

I think it would be a good idea to begin with Greg Egan's first comment from
the link below, which is not the text included in Damien's message:

EGAN:

Though a handful of self-described Transhumanists are thinking rationally
about real prospects for the future, the overwhelming majority might as well
belong to a religious cargo cult based on the notion that self-modifying AI
will have magical powers.

Worse, the word itself implies the replacement or overcoming of humanity,
which is a PR disaster. While at some level it's good to insist that every
quality of the human phenotype be subject to clear-eyed *scrutiny*, the word
"Transhumanist" appears to suggest the foregone conclusion that everything
about the present species is destined for the rubbish bin -- which neither
accords with what most people who've considered the matter would wish for,
nor does much to encourage anyone else to treat the movement seriously.

Russell, I share your concern that so many prominent Transhumanists are
anti-egalitarian, but at this stage, quite frankly, to first order I
consider a self-description of "Transhumanist" to be a useful filter to
identify crackpots. While this might be unfair on a tiny proportion of
people, I'm afraid anyone who doesn't want to sink with the whole drooling
sub-Nietzschean mob really ought to think of a better name for their
philosophy -- or perhaps even eschew labels altogether.


On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
wrote:

> See Russell Blackford's blog entry on transhumanism,
>
> http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/
>
> and especially the comments:
>
> <
> https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=24761391&postID=3749500042141962458
> >
>
> where Greg Egan offers remarks such as:
>
> <The word "transhumanism" (or, even worse, "posthumanism") sounds
> like a suicide note for the species, which effectively renders it a
> political suicide note for any movement by that name. No doubt there
> are people prepared to spend 90% of their time and energy explaining
> that they didn't *intend* any negative connotations, but this is not
> one of those cases where other people will be to blame if
> "transhumanists" are reviled as the enemies of humanity on purely
> linguistic grounds. It's no use people proclaiming "Please, read my
> 1,000-page manifesto, don't just look at one word!" The name is
> stupid, and anyone who doesn't drop it deserves the consequences.
>
> And I'm not sure quite how much solidarity I'm compelled to have with
> someone, just because they've also noticed that we're not going to
> see out the millennium with physical substrates identical to those
> we've had for the last 200,000 years. People who think their manifest
> destiny is to turn Jupiter into computronium so they can play 10^20
> characters simultaneously in their favourite RPG are infinitely more
> odious and dangerous than the average person who thinks this whole
> subject is science-fictional gibberish and would really just like to
> have 2.3 children that are members of his/her own species, so long as
> they don't have cystic fibrosis and live a slightly better life than
> their parents. >
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 04:30:49 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:30:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist and Proud of It
References: <7641ddc60804232110q2c7ca447lbb521e411393aaa2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <062a01c8a5c4$7f15fe60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rafal writes


> Damien wrote:
> 
>>  <https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=24761391&postID=3749500042141962458>
>>
>>  where Greg Egan offers remarks such as:
>>
>>  <The word "transhumanism" (or, even worse, "posthumanism") sounds
>>  like a suicide note for the species, which effectively renders it a
>>  political suicide note for any movement by that name...

Hard to believe that Egan isn't at the cutting edge philosophically

>>  People who think their manifest destiny is to turn Jupiter into
>>  computronium so they can play 10^20 characters simultaneously
>>  in their favourite RPG are infinitely more odious and dangerous
>>  than the average person

It all depends on whether those characters' lives are worth
living. Has it occurred to Egan that he may be one of those
characters? If it occur to him, wouldn't that affect his opinion?

Besides, anything or anyone who turns Jupiter into computronium
will almost surely have better things to do than benefit or harm
imaginary or historical characters. More likely, the entity that takes
Jupiter will *personally* experience gratifications 10^10^10
times anything we can imagine.

Rafal responds

> ### Damien quoted some remarks by Greg Egan, and let me do some
> disagreeing here:
> 
> I don't care how Joe Schmoe might (mis)understand "transhumanism".
> To me it means the desire to transcend our biological limits, to be
> better humans, plain and simple. In a discussion it takes me less than
> a minute to explain what I mean by this word, and if my interlocutor
> disagrees, it's with the substance, not with the word itself. Unless a
> bunch of Joe's with pitchforks show up in my backyard, I will proudly
> proclaim myself a transhumanist.

Yeah.  Just what is the downside?  Perhaps a fading loyalty to what
our old habits were? Well, we cast off our LPs and 8-track cassettes
for tapes and CDs---so just who wouldn't want to be smarter too?

Of course, there is the elephant-in-the-room issue that is always
ignored. If you *don't* give your backup copies runtime, then
you'll quickly turn into something that isn't you any longer, which
is like, you know, being dead!

Lee



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 04:40:22 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:10:22 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804231407w3475fa4ao7b8b35ee935fda5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30804231407w3475fa4ao7b8b35ee935fda5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804232140k2e06d5dew63b53bc2ef108c05@mail.gmail.com>

> Humanity is changing now, so let's deal with the present problems on
> the ground.  We're up to our eyeballs in transhumanism in the present,
> if anyone bothered to notice.
>
> PJ

Absolutely! Being active for the cause of Transhumanism seems like
being active for Gravity. The stuff is happening, it feels a lot more
like a description of / way to understand the present and near future,
than an ideology that we are striving towards. I think you see that on
this list in particular, it's not a hotbed of activism. We all get on
with our day to day lives (many "transhumanist" in small or large
ways), and pop into this nice little salon, drink cups of tea, and
chat about related comings and goings. Good conversation, nice
company, terribly civilised, it's lovely to be sailing into the future
with you all. Toodle pip!

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 04:55:28 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:55:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0804232140k2e06d5dew63b53bc2ef108c05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30804231407w3475fa4ao7b8b35ee935fda5@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0804232140k2e06d5dew63b53bc2ef108c05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804232355.28650.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 23 April 2008, Emlyn wrote:
> Absolutely! Being active for the cause of Transhumanism seems like
> being active for Gravity. The stuff is happening, it feels a lot more
> like a description of / way to understand the present and near
> future, than an ideology that we are striving towards. I think you
> see that on this list in particular, it's not a hotbed of activism.
> We all get on

Not a hotbed of activism? I should bloody tear my servers down.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From pgptag at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 06:27:16 2008
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:27:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804231407w3475fa4ao7b8b35ee935fda5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30804231407w3475fa4ao7b8b35ee935fda5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <470a3c520804232327s6a4de0dcs50470da39dd5c4da@mail.gmail.com>

My comment on Russel's blog:

Thanks Russel, Greg and others for the great article and discussion.

I guess I agree with Greg that "The word "transhumanism" (or, even
worse, "posthumanism") sounds like a suicide note for the species,
which effectively renders it a political suicide note for any movement
by that name.".

Of course, most transhumanists don't mean it as a suicide for the
species, but rather as growing up to adulthood as a species. But my
experience is that most people do not relate positively to the term
because it conjures the negative and threatening images described in
the post and comments.

But labels are a useful communication device. Of course the simple
words "Left", "Right", "Democratic", "Republican" etc. cannot capture
a more complex political position, but they are still useful to
express _more or less_ where one stands. And we need simple labels for
overcoming human limitations through all available means including
technology because, like it or not, this is becoming and important
political issue.

So what label should we use for the simple idea of, in Russel's words,
"being in favour of using technology to overcome human limitations
(and accepting that one day our bodies may be different, rather than
being appalled at the idea)"?

I always thought the "Extropy" label is very strong because it does
not have an "old" meaning and by itself does not trigger any image, be
it positive or negative. But over the year the E word has became more
and more identified with a specific political flavor of the T word
(perhaps this is not what Max More and the first Extropians would have
wished).

Perhaps the T word will lose its negative connotations over time, or
perhaps we should think of a new label.

G.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 06:48:45 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:48:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520804232327s6a4de0dcs50470da39dd5c4da@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30804231407w3475fa4ao7b8b35ee935fda5@mail.gmail.com>
	<470a3c520804232327s6a4de0dcs50470da39dd5c4da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080424014441.025fb5e0@satx.rr.com>

At 08:27 AM 4/24/2008 +0200, G. wrote:

>My comment on Russel's blog:
>
>Thanks Russel, Greg and others for the great article and discussion.

I'm fwding all these relevant comments along to Russell (with two 
ls), who, alas, presumably can't put them on his blog because they 
weren't sent to him there. I hope those people who've taken the 
trouble to post will go back to the blog and put in the relevant 
portions of their exichat comments. (How often do you get the chance 
to shoot the breeze with Greg Egan?)

Damien Broderick 



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 08:38:17 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:38:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <380-22008442483817518@M2W013.mail2web.com>


From: Michael LaTorra mlatorra at gmail.com

>I think it would be a good idea to begin with Greg Egan's first comment
from
>the link below, which is not the text included in Damien's message:

>EGAN:

"Though a handful of self-described Transhumanists are thinking rationally
about real prospects ..."

Thanks Mike,

I subscribe to the first group of critical thinkers.  I have been a
long-time environmentalist (not the flag waving fundamentalist
environmentalists who construe facts to instill fear), and I have a lovely
relationship with my body.  I like it very much and, in fact, respect it a
great deal.  I also have been pushing for a more humane H+ for years.  I do
not subscribe to the religious H+ or politically pushing H+; but in the
original tenets of H+ which are based on foresight, insight and hindsight
concerning humanity.

But I am not alone for goodness sakes. I thnk I represent a large portion
of H+ers.  We care about the world and people. I'd like to know who the
heck these people are - this group of crazy H+ers who are fanatics?  Or is
Egan just reading the more far-future writngs and not the writings which
concern the currents of near future?  

Natasha


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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 24 09:07:45 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:07:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <062401c8a5c2$647225e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <645105.97463.qm@web65412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> In this case, the wiser people will upload and use their
> resources (possibly even extra-bodily resources that
> they got to keep) to evolve themselves into vastly more
> intelligent entities. Again, as wise people, I claim, they'll
> always provide earlier versions of themselves with at
> least some runtime, at least  because they fear that they
> too will be supplanted. But your problem now becomes,
> "will the advanced copies of us retain 'fun' and 'enjoyment',
> or will competition force them to abandon these as luxuries?
> (Me, I'll let Lee+ decide that for himself, being quite happy
> if Lee 2000, Lee 2005, etc., all get some runtime.)

Ok Lee. Imagine Executron the Overmind version 2.5 with service pack 3 offers 
to upload you. You agree. You get put into some weird MRI-like aparatus, some
colored lights flash, and the procedure is done. You don't feel terribly
different. Executron assures you that the upload went without a hitch and that
every bit of information that is you has been scanned into the machine. He says
you may now transfer all your assets to your uploaded self and proceed to the
"showers" at the recycling facilities. Lets say you ask for proof that the
procedure worked. Executron rolls his CCD sensors and flicks on a monitor and
sure enough there you are jacuzzying with Lara Croft looking like you are
having the time of your life. Executron flicks off the monitor and slides a
Power of Attorney/Last Will and Testament before you. Do you sign it and go to
the recycling plant?
 

Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 08:19:36 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:19:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <380-22008442481936833@M2W027.mail2web.com>

Hi Patricia,

I worry about your determination to move from the word "transhumanism" but
carry forth the ideas.  I realize you are not invested in transhumanism as
a word or a concept/philosophy but that you value certain ideas and goals
which are presented through the worldview of transhumanism.  This is a
problem.  

What do you really know about Egan?  Are his
values/knowledge/intelligent/life experiences better than the rest of us? 
What makes you think he is the authority?  Because he is a well known
science fiction writer?  Or that he has a wisdom that the rest of us do not
possess?

Why should transhumanism change its name because others think it is crap? 
Why aren't transhumanists addressing these issues directly and with
critical thinking?

I am not attached to a name, to be sure, but I do not think that the name
is the problem.  It is the values/content of transhumanism which offends
others.  Are you willing to say that life extension is not all that
important and that we ought to die because others think it is selfish and
immature to want to life longer?  Do you think we ought to forego
nanotechnology, AGI, genetic engineering, prosthetics, robotics, and space
exploration because others may think it is crazy?

I think that we need to reexamine our principles, values, and goals and
present them in a way that deals with criticisms rather than changing our
sinful name.  I mean after all, are you saying that Max More is full of
crap and that he ought to be ashamed of transhumanism and that he is a
self-indulgent, Pollyanna?

I think we need to discuss this on this list, not run to the WTA list and
talk about it.  I mean - we are in this together.

Best wishes,
Natasha


Original Message:
-----------------
From: PJ Manney pjmanney at gmail.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:07:08 -0700
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H


On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
wrote:
> where Greg Egan offers remarks such as:
>
> <The word "transhumanism" (or, even worse, "posthumanism") sounds
> like a suicide note for the species, which effectively renders it a
> political suicide note for any movement by that name. No doubt there
> are people prepared to spend 90% of their time and energy explaining
> that they didn't *intend* any negative connotations, but this is not
> one of those cases where other people will be to blame if
> "transhumanists" are reviled as the enemies of humanity on purely
> linguistic grounds. It's no use people proclaiming "Please, read my
> 1,000-page manifesto, don't just look at one word!" The name is
> stupid, and anyone who doesn't drop it deserves the consequences.
>
> And I'm not sure quite how much solidarity I'm compelled to have with
> someone, just because they've also noticed that we're not going to
> see out the millennium with physical substrates identical to those
> we've had for the last 200,000 years. People who think their manifest
> destiny is to turn Jupiter into computronium so they can play 10^20
> characters simultaneously in their favourite RPG are infinitely more
> odious and dangerous than the average person who thinks this whole
> subject is science-fictional gibberish and would really just like to
> have 2.3 children that are members of his/her own species, so long as
> they don't have cystic fibrosis and live a slightly better life than
> their parents. >

I have long agreed with Egan.  Three years ago, I was saying on the
WTA site that the word "transhumanism" conjured up the image of that
handful of men (note the gender) who could run fast enough to catch
the train of radical evolution, leaving everyone else behind on the
platform.

Unfortunately, some people have both a personal and historical
investment in the word and are reluctant to change it.

I also agree that the far future scenarios for which transhumanism is
known can be very destructive in the wrong hands when they no longer
resemble SF literary meditations and instead resemble a wishlist.
Humanity is changing now, so let's deal with the present problems on
the ground.  We're up to our eyeballs in transhumanism in the present,
if anyone bothered to notice.

I'm the type who believes in searching for something that works better
rather than sticking to something that works badly just because it's
there.  Brands are malleable and anyone's ideas on a more user
friendly image are welcome by me.  For instance, I liked H+, but got
grief from the chemists.  Fair enough.  Please feel free to brainstorm
here or on the WTA site or just pass them on.  I look forward to your
thoughts.

PJ
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 11:52:26 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:52:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-22008442483817518@M2W013.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22008442483817518@M2W013.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <200804240652.26965.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 24 April 2008, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> But I am not alone for goodness sakes. I thnk I represent a large
> portion of H+ers. ?We care about the world and people. I'd like to
> know who the heck these people are - this group of crazy H+ers who
> are fanatics? ?Or is Egan just reading the more far-future writngs
> and not the writings which concern the currents of near future?

Perhaps we could ask Greg to specifically identify these 'crazies'? But 
this wouldn't be entirely constructive. Hm. How many writings on the 
currents of the more near future are there? How many people are writing 
about do it yourself synthetic biology and genetic engineering, how 
many are writing about cognitive augmentation for your own time, etc.? 
Very little, from what I have seen. 

"This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. 
Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi 
craves not these things. You are reckless!"

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 08:54:31 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:54:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>


From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 

"I always thought the "Extropy" label is very strong because it does
not have an "old" meaning and by itself does not trigger any image, be
it positive or negative. But over the year the E word has became more
and more identified with a specific political flavor of the T word
(perhaps this is not what Max More and the first Extropians would have
wished).

Perhaps the T word will lose its negative connotations over time, or
perhaps we should think of a new label."

I think you may have hit the nail on its head.  Extropy is a meaningful
term because it is about continually learning, growing, discovering and
reevaluating.  I cannot speak for Max, but for me it contextualized the
term "transhuman".  In other words, it gave the concept of "transhuman" a
meta-view.

Let me also say that I do not favor "extropianism".  I never identified
with that term because it removed the essence of extropy by packaging the
views in an "ism".

WE MUST be careful in what we decide and how we package it.  This is not
for any one group, but for as many of us as possible to consider what the
heck to do.

Mind you, I am not in Spain and just completed a talk on "Deconstructing
Transhumanism" and got considerable feedback.  Most people do not like
transhumanism.  At all.  We have a very big problem to work out and it
cannot be done, again, by any self-proclaimed organization as being a
"turn-key" or "overseeing" of H+, but by a clearly a strategy that needs a
meeting/conference about.

I propose that we create a conference in real time or virtual to deal with
this.  Everyone ought to come and participate.  We need our thought leaders
there and all participants.

This is my proposal.

Best wishes,
Natasha


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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 24 14:18:43 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:18:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <200804232355.28650.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804241445.m3OEjNoA021090@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Bryan Bishop
> ...
> 
> Not a hotbed of activism?... 

Ja, we are better described as a coldbed of activism.

>...I should bloody tear my servers down. - Bryan

This is a systematic error in the way the British and Australians say
things.  Since the adjective bloody is often used as an adverb, it would be
more proper to differentiate it from the adjective form.  At the same time,
move the preposition from the end of the sentence.  Then you have

"I should bloodly tear down my servers."

Or it might be "...bloodily tear down..."

In the states we have a similar problem wherein the term fucking is misused
as an adverb, when it would be more proper to use the term fuckingly.
However I seldom hear of anyone expressing a desire to fuckingly tear down
anything.

spike





 




From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 14:50:22 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:50:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
References: <BLU109-DS2BA2A49EF98E2F73D16568EE10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <066001c8a61a$a555c000$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Thomas writes

From: M1N3R 
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 1:41 PM

> An interesting topic. I just have to add something to it.
> I've seen several most astonishing thoughts about this.
> The feeling process in us, if I may call it that, is due to
> very complex phenomena in our brain and all through
> the body. Be it chemical or electrical in nature.

Thanks for making explicit a huge point of controversy.
No less than Damasio himself claims that the body is
*essential* for the experience of emotion. I totally
disagree, and imagine that he must be just using words
very differently from how we use them here.

Look, if some computer interface attached to a bodiless
head simulated *all* the feedback conveyed by nerves
in a normally functioning body, then what would be the
difference? Clearly the "goose bumps" and other pleasures
(e.g. if you watch carefully you can feel certain areas of
your body, for example your shoulders being pleasurably
affected by music).

So for now, I defy anyone to make a good argument that
having a body is really essential for anything. All of what
happens to us really occurs just in the brain.

> If you think of it like that, it is just a mass of currents
> running through the body, quite chaotic.

You mean brain.

> To understand these would mean a new beginning in science,
> quite evidently. Now, to build them into computers seems
> dubious to me. Would it really be beneficial?

Certainly.  Let's take a few examples. Suppose that the
afferent (as opposed to efferent) nerve impulses could be
completely replaced by the output from a robot body.
Then I could get rid of the body I have now, which has
all sorts of less than >H limitations (including declining
organ viability).

Moving on to the philosophically more interesting examples,
just my brain could be uploaded, and by definition a
successful upload gives me a life at least as rich in any
way one can imagine as my old body+brain could deliver.

> As for humans, I consider emotions an inseparable part
> of our self

Yes, and a lot of ink has been spilled on this thread that
time has not permitted me to address. *Emotions*,
when the term is broadly enough understood, really *are*
an essential part of the ability to function. Anyone who
doesn't think so needs to review the "Damasio card
experiments", or results like that. We used to talk about
it here a lot. Bottom line (to me):  the right way to calculate
benefit to you can involve so much arithmetic that people
can't do it, and so results of a lot of experiences create
"an emotional signature", so that you have strong biases
against, say, getting yourself into certain situations, biases
that you cannot consciously account for. The 19th century
Phineas Gage seemed to function all right so far as anyone
could measure, but his life was screwed up because this 
mechanism had been damaged in a mining accident.

> For example, love just grabs one by the throat and turns
> them over. Should a computer be exposed to that?

Any program I write to do work for me probably doesn't
need that to do its job. Oh, yes, true, I may want my 
refrigerator to absolutely love its job, and absolutely
delight in keeping itself well-stocked. 

An AI, on the other hand, doesn't need what people call
"irrational love", where one is inclined to do things not in
one's best interest (e.g. go about raping those you are
infatuated with). 

> Or how about depression? These are mostly due to the
> presence or absence of certain chemicals in the brain

yes

> (and body),

no, not from a total philosophic perspective

> as I gather.  Now, provided we get to know the exact
> nature of feelings in our system, how would that be simulated?

No one knows how, exactly, at the present time. But
nature did it, and so we have a working model to
backward engineer.

> Because if I think of a silicon or whatever computer,
> I just can't think of anything other than pure simulation.
> Would that be the same?

If you are a philosophical functionalist the way most
people are here, then the answer is a resounding "YES".

> ...somehow human thought, however rational, always
> has a certain emotional background to it (if we want
> humanlike AI)  [for us to become]. After so much talk
> I come back to my beloved future model, collective
> consciousness.

An interesting and difficult topic. If I couldn't be at two
places at once (as most people continue to suppose, no
matter how many times some of us straighten them out),
then I would worry very much about joining a collective
consciousness. Here is why:  on a normal day I'm me
because I reference all those Lee Corbin memories. 
This new entity might spend 1% of its time on my memories
and 99% on other people's. What good would that do me?

Or as I like to put it, just how much runtime would Lee get?

On the other hand, I'd have no trouble joining a collective
as a copy, so long as I knew that there was an unadulterated
Lee still carrying on. Hey, 1% is better than 0%   :-)

Lee

P.S.  Any "group consciousness" discussion should OBVIOUSLY
go into a new thread.

P.P.S. Thanks Thomas, for volunteering to post in plain text from
now on.

>  If plausible, aided by a certain intelligence enhancement,
> wouldn't that be the best solution (to become posthuman
> but still remain human in nature)? Please comment on that,
> I'd be so interested to hear your opinion.



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 15:00:18 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:00:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
References: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <067701c8a61c$0d7cb1b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Natasha writes

> From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 
> 
> > "I always thought the "Extropy" label is very strong because it does
> > not have an "old" meaning and by itself does not trigger any image, be
> > it positive or negative. But over the year the E word has became more
> > and more identified with a specific political flavor of the T word
> > (perhaps this is not what Max More and the first Extropians would have
> > wished).
> > 
> > Perhaps the T word will lose its negative connotations over time, or
> > perhaps we should think of a new label."
> 
> I think you may have hit the nail on its head.

I agree.  Giulio has struck exactly the right chord.

> WE MUST be careful in what we decide and how we package it.
> This is not for any one group, but for as many of us as possible to
> consider what the heck to do.

For the reason you state next, I am perfectly agreeable to
whatever you and the others decide. I never used the 
word "transhumanist", and usually shy away from it how
(despite the convenient abbreviation ">H"). In principle,
there *should* be nothing wrong with it. "Trans" need
not implying discarding all that came before.

> Mind you, I am not in Spain and just completed a talk on "Deconstructing
> Transhumanism" and got considerable feedback.  Most people do not like
> transhumanism.  At all.  We have a very big problem to work out and it
> cannot be done, again, by any self-proclaimed organization as being a
> "turn-key" or "overseeing" of H+, but by a clearly a strategy that needs a
> meeting/conference about.

Very telling, IMO.

> I propose that we create a conference in real time or virtual to deal
> with this.  Everyone ought to come and participate.  We need our
> thought leaders there and all participants.
> 
> This is my proposal.

Best of luck. I'll happily go along with whatever is decided. I'm 
sure I speak for many.

Lee



From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Thu Apr 24 15:14:50 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:14:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alternative Meat Production [WAS Re:  Fame meat]
In-Reply-To: <200804240238.m3O2cAhY001045@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804240238.m3O2cAhY001045@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4810A3EA.7010206@insightbb.com>


>
> Imagine a stack of thin sheets a cm apart with 0.5 cm dimeter thru-holes on
> about 4 cm centers.  The stack could be a couple meters deep, giving you a
> couple hundred sheets of meat.  Nutrient fluids flow thru the holes to reach
> all the stacks.  The stacks are taken apart and harvested by machine after a
> week.  You have 200 sheets, say 3 mm thick, two meters on a side, that's
> .003*2*2*200 is about 2400 liters of meat, which is about 3000 kg.  How much
> is that worth?  How many proles could that feed?  What is 3 tons in beasts?
> About 6?  Any beast experts here?  What if it took a month to grow 3 cm?
> Six beast-equivalents per month?
>
> spike
>
>   
This really depends on what cut we're actually making. An 1100 lb cow 
produces roughly 500 lbs of usable meat. But that meat includes tongue 
among other things which I'm not too fond of . This is a 14-18 month 
process of feeding when you are dealing with corn-fed cows vs foraging 
cows which take longer to get to market due to the lower energy provided 
by grass. Only about 15% of that appears to be "chuck" for ground chuck 
(ground beef is made from all sorts of leftovers). Assuming this is the 
meat we would first be attempting to replace, a single cow only 
represents 75 lbs of  ground chuck  at about $2.50 per pound on the 
market. At 3000 kg (6600 lbs roughly) your single run is worth about 
$16,500 and replaces 88 cows feeding for 14-18 months at roughly 22 lbs 
per day (based on a loose average gleaned from multiple lousy internet 
sources and no real experts). That's about 2000 lbs of feed per day - 
960,000 lbs over a 16 month period. Also with such a system there is no 
need to administer antibiotics.

The thin sheets would of course have to be on some kind of support. One 
person mentioned a substrate that dissolves, but I have another idea. 
How about making the sheets out of the very nutrients needed to grow in 
the first place. The cells could then be sprayed onto the "feed paper" 
and then they would actually consume the paper while replacing it with 
proper meat cells. Then we may even be able to rid ourselves of the 
entire structure of holes and nutrient delivery and only have to concern 
ourselves with occasional passes of a sprayer head that feeds the top 
and provides water.

On another note, I changed the heading for this thread. My typo was 
supposed to be "fake meat" and not "fame meat" but alas, my spell 
checker doesn't check subject lines. It's been bugging me but I didn't 
expect the thread to last this long. But seeing that this has gone a 
whole day I just HAD to change it!


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 24 15:15:11 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:15:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <645105.97463.qm@web65412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <067d01c8a61e$2958bc10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

The Avantguardian writes

> Lee wrote:
> 
>> In this case, the wiser people will upload and use their
>> resources (possibly even extra-bodily resources that
>> they got to keep) to evolve themselves into vastly more
>> intelligent entities. Again, as wise people, I claim, they'll
>> always provide earlier versions of themselves with at
>> least some runtime, at least  because they fear that they
>> too will be supplanted.
>> 
>> But your problem now becomes, "will the advanced
>> copies of us retain 'fun' and 'enjoyment', or will competition
>> force them to abandon these as luxuries? (Me, I'll let
>> Lee+ decide that for himself, being quite happy
>> if Lee 2000, Lee 2005, etc., all get some runtime.)
> 
> Ok Lee. Imagine Executron the Overmind version 2.5 with service pack 3 offers 
> to upload you. You agree.

Destructive upload?  Or do I get to be both "here" and "there"?
It's always necessary to specify that.

> You get put into some weird MRI-like apparatus, some colored lights
> flash, and the procedure is done. You don't feel terribly different.

That might not be "me". As an *absolute* prerequisite, the
procedure has been PROVEN to preserve memories, and
the uploads have passed all the usual tests so that we may
affirm that they are the same people. (Sorry to detail what
you've written, but many reading this won't understand.)

> Executron assures you that the upload went without a hitch and that
> every bit of information that is you has been scanned into the machine. He says
> you may now transfer all your assets to your uploaded self and proceed to the
> "showers" at the recycling facilities. Let's say you ask for proof that the
> procedure worked.

Like I said!  This step should *not* become necessary at
this late stage in the game!  It should have been long ago
proven to all and sundry that "uploading works". If there
is any question remaining, then we're still in the experimental
stage playing with monkeys or criminals.

> Executron rolls his CCD sensors and flicks on a monitor and
> sure enough there you are jacuzzying with Lara Croft looking
> like you are having the time of your life. Executron flicks off
> the monitor and slides a Power of Attorney/Last Will and
> Testament before you. Do you sign it and go to the recycling
> plant?

Under *this* scenario?  Of course not.  I must emphasize it
again:

"Uploading" is taken to mean *successful* uploading, which
is taken to me that no identity questions---except the most
abstruse ones---remain.

Moreover, you didn't say why the original had to die. Was
it part of a weird A or B choice thought experiment? In RL
there is no reason my original body wouldn't continue to
live (on a non-destructive upload methodology as you 
have presumed here), and no reason for it to die just
because the uploaded version had life so much better.

Indeed, if my upload said ("Oh, this is *sooooooooo* 
much better"), and---need I say it again?---this is 
completely believable, then hopefully the meat Lee
gets to look forward to getting a new upload shot
every few years, though there will always remain a
meat Lee who irrationally feels that he's been unlucky.
(I explore his feelings in my old story
http://www.leecorbin.com/PitAndDuplicate.html ).

Thanks for the challenging TE (thought experiment).
Got any more?

Lee



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 16:35:50 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:35:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bloody hell
In-Reply-To: <200804241445.m3OEjNoA021090@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804232355.28650.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<200804241445.m3OEjNoA021090@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080424113027.0268dc00@satx.rr.com>

At 07:18 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, spike wrote:

> >...I should bloody tear my servers down. - Bryan
>
>This is a systematic error in the way the British and Australians say
>things.

Not it's not--Aussies wouldn't say that. We'd say "I should 
bloody-well tear..." or "I should tear my bloody servers..."

Well, they *might* say it, as an elision... But I would bloody-well hope not.

Damien Broderick



From jef at jefallbright.net  Thu Apr 24 16:17:50 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:17:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804240917j41979c39gfb75597b52cca247@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:54 AM, nvitamore at austin.rr.com
<nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:

>  I think you may have hit the nail on its head.  Extropy is a meaningful
>  term because it is about continually learning, growing, discovering and
>  reevaluating.  I cannot speak for Max, but for me it contextualized the
>  term "transhuman".  In other words, it gave the concept of "transhuman" a
>  meta-view.
>
>  Let me also say that I do not favor "extropianism".  I never identified
>  with that term because it removed the essence of extropy by packaging the
>  views in an "ism".

This, for me,  packages the problem fairly well.  It is unfortunate
that a philosophy of extropy came to be thought of as one of many
forms of transhumanism -- even by its most ardent promoters in the
political arena -- rather than the metaphilosophy which it represents,
and no less real for being meta.  Worse that it became identified with
simple libertarian thinking, which was never the point.

We cannot know with precision what forms the future will take, but
only that -- from a future context -- they will be seen as consistent
with what came before.  "Transhumanist" dreams of god-like powers and
indefinitely extended personal identity rapidly fade into incoherence
while we can be increasingly certain that future forms will tend
exploit increasingly synergistic configurations with increasing
degrees of freedom.  Ironically, those excited by the "transhumanist"
dream (in contrast with the extropic one) often accuse others of being
faint of heart or weak of imagination.

There's nothing at all wrong with dreams of immortality and superhuman
powers, but to the extent they are seen as somehow fundamental or
real, rather than as current reflections of our evolving values, they
tend to interfere with the business of effective change in the here
and now, the vital process of discovering our preferred future by
acting to create it.

It's like confusing goals with aims  -- the former necessarily
defined, the latter an expression of one's values.  Like two villages
separated by a deep and uncertain chasm; one group adopts the goal of
building a bridge, the other aims to improve interaction.  Which group
displays the greater adaptability, the greater variety of solutions,
the best basis for continued growth?  Do we have an expectation and
thus a goal of atomic-powered dishwashers, or do we aim to increase
the efficacy of domestic chores, with the possibility of eliminating
such chores entirely as we evolve?

Super-hero powers are an entirely valid expression of primate values,
but increasingly incoherent with increasing context of effective
interaction.  The extropic arrow of intentional action points toward
increasing subtlety -- increasing effectiveness while minimizing
unintended consequences -- rather than toward atomic dishwashers and
the simplistic developmental framework of Kardaschev.  This is not in
any way a denial of the eventuality of fantastic personal power and
megascale engineering, but says that it's incoherent to refer to such
with ANY degree of specificity.  Think about it -- this doesn't mean
"Sure, it'll happen but we can't know the details.", but rather "It's
incoherent to talk about having future super-powers because we can't
possibly know the context."

In other words, it's not a question of what kinds of super-powers
there will be, but about the meaning of super-powers within an unknown
and unknowable context.  Chief Sitting Bull:  "Does it mean our bows
and arrows' aim will always be true?"  General MacArthur: "No, it
means your arrows will be entirely irrelevant to combat."  General
Early21stCTech: "Actually, combat itself has become irrelevant as
we're increasingly able to sense and neutralize our opponents before
they act against us."  Later 21stC:  "Actually,  "conflict" is a
subjective expression of gradients of awareness of our mutual
interaction-space, amenable to search for hierarchical positive-sum
solutions..."  Chief Sitting Bull:  "So you mean we're becoming
powerless?"

[The foregoing begs for explication and extension, but I need to get
back to my work, building increasingly effective levers for
discovering the next level of levers...]

- Jef


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 17:18:36 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:18:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <066001c8a61a$a555c000$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <BLU109-DS2BA2A49EF98E2F73D16568EE10@phx.gbl>
	<066001c8a61a$a555c000$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080424120744.025124c0@satx.rr.com>

At 07:50 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:

>Look, if some computer interface attached to a bodiless
>head simulated *all* the feedback conveyed by nerves
>in a normally functioning body, then what would be the
>difference?

This question seems to imply a sort of 1930s' view of the 
organism-as-telephone-switchboard. But the brain and its 
enabling/enabled body are not just wired circuits; they are vastly 
elaborate rivers of liquids bearing weirdly shaped interlocking 
molecules. The brain is as much a set of glands as it is a circuit 
board of ons and offs. I'm no neurologist or endocrinologist, but it 
seems very obvious to me (although it didn't back in the sixties, 
when everything seemed simpler) that it would require a truly 
staggering amount of parallel linear computations to model, in real 
time, the ebb and flow of neurotransmitters and other gooey factors 
that are more than simple pulses or switches.

Damien Broderick
[currently reading Bainbridge's BEYOND THE ZONULES OF ZINN, a quite 
charming book on the topic]




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 19:42:32 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:42:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Kanzius Machine: A Cancer Cure?
Message-ID: <2d6187670804241242j4659233ftc76a950060d1bed4@mail.gmail.com>

Could this be the huge leap forward in cancer research we all dream about?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/10/60minutes/main4006951.shtml
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From frankmac at ripco.com  Thu Apr 24 20:04:56 2008
From: frankmac at ripco.com (frank McElligott)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:04:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] FAme meat
Message-ID: <004201c8a646$77bfa8f0$d75de547@thebigloser>

A little late to discussion as I was using my last Tamiflu to ward off the 
summer cold which never ends.

Had brought the Tamiflu( in case of the bird flu) for the possible recurring 
Spanish flu (updated to bird) which killed 20 people in my extended family 
back in the 1910's.

Isn't the problem (food) on track for natures way of lowering the 
population,,example the little ice age in Europe in 1300's ,,lack of food, 
causes lack of immune system response, attack of  plague(bird flu), and 30% 
of the weakling  gone in a few years.

But on the other hand, the NY times reports, heard it on cnbc, that we(the 
USA) has over 95,000,000 acres of farmland sitting idle because of 
government bill written in 1986 to pay farmers not to grow food as we had to 
much then.

So to ward off world food riots, may I suggest that we giving Mcdonalds the 
right to these 95,000,000 acres and let them perform their vertical 
integration magic and feed these hungry mass on big mac's. Problem solved 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 22:04:51 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:04:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alternative Meat Production [WAS Re:  Fame meat]
In-Reply-To: <4810A3EA.7010206@insightbb.com>
References: <200804240238.m3O2cAhY001045@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4810A3EA.7010206@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804241704.51353.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 24 April 2008, Kevin Freels wrote:
> The thin sheets would of course have to be on some kind of support.
> One person mentioned a substrate that dissolves, but I have another
> idea. How about making the sheets out of the very nutrients needed to
> grow in the first place. The cells could then be sprayed onto the
> "feed paper" and then they would actually consume the paper while
> replacing it with proper meat cells. Then we may even be able to rid
> ourselves of the entire structure of holes and nutrient delivery and
> only have to concern ourselves with occasional passes of a sprayer
> head that feeds the top and provides water.

How would you make sure that the cells are able to absorb those 
materials? Remember, there's some pretty intense metabolism going on 
here, so the feed paper concept would only work -- perhaps -- as an 
ECM, or artificial extracellular matrix -- provided that your spray is 
a feed too, but frankly submersion in a liquid environment makes more 
sense so that the hypotonic/isotonic statuses can be maintained.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Thu Apr 24 22:11:32 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:11:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-22008442481936833@M2W027.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22008442481936833@M2W027.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804241511m2f65bb51xe54210872600f9ba@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:19 AM, nvitamore at austin.rr.com
<nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Hi Patricia,
>
> I worry about your determination to move from the word "transhumanism" but
> carry forth the ideas.  I realize you are not invested in transhumanism as
> a word or a concept/philosophy but that you value certain ideas and goals
> which are presented through the worldview of transhumanism.  This is a
> problem.
>
> What do you really know about Egan?  Are his
> values/knowledge/intelligent/life experiences better than the rest of us?
> What makes you think he is the authority?  Because he is a well known
> science fiction writer?  Or that he has a wisdom that the rest of us do not
> possess?
>
> Why should transhumanism change its name because others think it is crap?
> Why aren't transhumanists addressing these issues directly and with
> critical thinking?
>
> I am not attached to a name, to be sure, but I do not think that the name
> is the problem.  It is the values/content of transhumanism which offends
> others.  Are you willing to say that life extension is not all that
> important and that we ought to die because others think it is selfish and
> immature to want to life longer?  Do you think we ought to forego
> nanotechnology, AGI, genetic engineering, prosthetics, robotics, and space
> exploration because others may think it is crazy?
>
> I think that we need to reexamine our principles, values, and goals and
> present them in a way that deals with criticisms rather than changing our
> sinful name.  I mean after all, are you saying that Max More is full of
> crap and that he ought to be ashamed of transhumanism and that he is a
> self-indulgent, Pollyanna?
>
> I think we need to discuss this on this list, not run to the WTA list and
> talk about it.  I mean - we are in this together.

Hey Natasha --

I don't know Greg Egan from a hole in the wall, except I've read some
of his stuff over the years.  It's quite good.

I do not subscribe to anything he says, except this particular opinion
that the word "transhumanism" does us no favors and a handful of
techno-utopians with body issues can give the rest of us a bad rap.

I'm probably much like you.  Politically moderate compared to the
stereotypical H+ skew, like my physical self just fine, not even
scared to die, although I'd certainly prefer to live.  I just see
what's coming in our society like it's a movie before my eyes, the
screen plastered on the front of a freight train heading towards me.

Here's my concrete problem.  People ask me what I'm involved in.  I
say "transhumanism".  They squint, brows knitting and ask as evenly as
possible, trying not to betray their suspicion, "What's that?"  So
immediately, I'm behind the eight-ball and that's from people who
don't have a preconceived notion to battle against.

The word has always sent up bad signals to my own ears, even before I
knew the background to it, and that's all I have to base it on.  Words
are important to me.  And apparently, to others as well.  Last I
checked, a book a lot of people believe in begins a gospel with the
words, "In the beginning, there was the word," and their god created
the universe with just his words.  Just as that book created a
powerful worldview with just its words.

I take first verbal impressions very seriously.  And "transhumanism"
has never cut it.  If I didn't care so much about the issues, I'd let
it slide as a "tried, but no cigar" attempt and move on with my life.
But I do care.  I'm pretty invested, if anyone has noticed.

I paused in writing this to have a private chat with Mike LaTorra.  In
the conversation, it struck me that Natasha's comment about "isms" is
really apt.  Adding "ism" to the end of "transhuman" brings in a whole
lot of implications about movements and agendas and coercion from one
part of society over another -- all those concepts that people by
nature fear.

And Mike said that I don't want to be an "ist."  I seem to have issues
with "ists" and "isms".  But so do others, apparently, including
Natasha.  I also have a problem with "trans" and that involves the
notion that it's something we're always heading towards and never
reaching.  When, in fact, we've been "trans" for a long time.  By
definition, humans are "trans".

But I'm cool with "human".  We can keep that part.  ;-)

As for mentioning the WTA list, I simply brought it up because it has
the word in its name.  Can't really avoid the issue.  Extropes might
or might not think it's such a great idea to continue the dialogue,
but if they grew bored of it, we have another place to discuss it.
There was no intended slight to extropes, just an offering of options.

Per Damien's message, when I get some time, I'll throw up a version of
my comments on Russell's site.  But I do welcome everyone's comments.

PJ


From benboc at lineone.net  Thu Apr 24 23:49:43 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:49:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <48111C97.4080301@lineone.net>

I don't get it.

If somebody could do this, why would they need or want to compete for a
measly $1M prize?

The point of a prize is to encourage development of a new technology.
The commercialisation of it comes after. These people seem to be
offering a prize for a mature, already commercialised technology.
They're not offering an incentive that doesn't already exist.

It's as if the Ansari X prize had been for the first company to
successfully run an orbital hotel for 6 months.

ben zaiboc



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 25 00:03:32 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:03:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <067d01c8a61e$2958bc10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <121265.2096.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

--- Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> The Avantguardian writes

> > Ok Lee. Imagine Executron the Overmind version 2.5 with service pack 3
>offers 
> > to upload you. You agree.
> > You get put into some weird MRI-like apparatus, some colored lights
> > flash, and the procedure is done. You don't feel terribly different.
> > Executron assures you that the upload went without a hitch and that
> > every bit of information that is you has been scanned into the machine. He
> says
> > you may now transfer all your assets to your uploaded self and proceed to
> the
> > "showers" at the recycling facilities. Let's say you ask for proof that the
> > procedure worked.
> > Executron rolls his CCD sensors and flicks on a monitor and
> > sure enough there you are jacuzzying with Lara Croft looking
> > like you are having the time of your life. Executron flicks off
> > the monitor and slides a Power of Attorney/Last Will and
> > Testament before you. Do you sign it and go to the recycling
> > plant?

Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> writes:

> Destructive upload?  Or do I get to be both "here" and "there"?
> It's always necessary to specify that.

Well I purposely blurred the distinction between the two. You could call this
the "delayed destructive upload" scenario. Which for all intents and purposes
is a destructive upload except in so far as the original stays alive just long
enough to be convinced that the upload worked. Presumably so that if something
"went wrong" it could be attempted again. As opposed to botched destructive
uploads where there would be no "do overs". 

> Under *this* scenario?  Of course not.  I must emphasize it
> again:
> "Uploading" is taken to mean *successful* uploading, which
> is taken to me that no identity questions---except the most
> abstruse ones---remain.

Would it make a difference in your answer if Executron shows you a stack of
nature and Science papers detailing the authenticity of the process, video
footage of experts extolling the virtues of the process, and you get to
interview yourself or any number of satisfied customers?
 
> Moreover, you didn't say why the original had to die. Was
> it part of a weird A or B choice thought experiment? In RL
> there is no reason my original body wouldn't continue to
> live (on a non-destructive upload methodology as you 
> have presumed here), and no reason for it to die just
> because the uploaded version had life so much better.

It is just a hypothetical constraint on a thought experiment. It could be any
number of reasons. Executive order #10110100011, for example, or perhaps the
property taxes on your body have exceeded your income, or the Soylent Green
market is booming and you are hoping to cash in. I was trying to figure out if
your enthusiasm for uploading extended to sacrificing your subjective self for
the benefit of another entity that is to any arbitrary degree of measurement
objectively you. It relates to whether an otherwise healthy individual has any
rationale to destructively upload since presumably no subjective spark jumps
the gap. Or does it? 


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From amara at amara.com  Fri Apr 25 01:15:08 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:15:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  Blackford and Egan
Message-ID: <p06230901c436dffc0e41@[192.168.0.66]>

>  What do you really know about Egan?

Besides being a science fiction writer, he is a reputable
mathematical physicist -

for example
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/19/6/310
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/19/24/315
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j9364141185052j0/
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/Cornall_Terry_420.pdf
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/Cornall_Terry_328.pdf

and he comments on sci.physics.research
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=greg+egan&num=100&scoring=r&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=sci.physics.research&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=lang_en&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=24&as_maxm=4&as_maxy=2008&safe=off

and on various blogs
http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/11/13/arxiv-find-universal-quantum-mechanics/#comment-304331

>Are his values/knowledge/intelligent/life experiences better than the
>rest of us?

I don't know them, but I would guess 'no', depending on how one defines
'better'. ;-)

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 01:38:13 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:38:13 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080424120744.025124c0@satx.rr.com>
References: <BLU109-DS2BA2A49EF98E2F73D16568EE10@phx.gbl>
	<066001c8a61a$a555c000$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080424120744.025124c0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804241838m3c40225dk8d2309cd831d02a@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/25 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
> At 07:50 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>
>  >Look, if some computer interface attached to a bodiless
>  >head simulated *all* the feedback conveyed by nerves
>  >in a normally functioning body, then what would be the
>  >difference?
>
>  This question seems to imply a sort of 1930s' view of the
>  organism-as-telephone-switchboard. But the brain and its
>  enabling/enabled body are not just wired circuits; they are vastly
>  elaborate rivers of liquids bearing weirdly shaped interlocking
>  molecules. The brain is as much a set of glands as it is a circuit
>  board of ons and offs. I'm no neurologist or endocrinologist, but it
>  seems very obvious to me (although it didn't back in the sixties,
>  when everything seemed simpler) that it would require a truly
>  staggering amount of parallel linear computations to model, in real
>  time, the ebb and flow of neurotransmitters and other gooey factors
>  that are more than simple pulses or switches.

The field of computational neuroscience consists in an attempt to
model the behaviour of real neurons. It remains to be seen just how
detailed this modelling needs to be: whether it has to be accurate
down to the molecular level or just the cellular level, like the
recent IBM Blue Gene/L simulation of rat cortex
(http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/521/djurfeldt.html).




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 01:59:51 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:59:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804241838m3c40225dk8d2309cd831d02a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU109-DS2BA2A49EF98E2F73D16568EE10@phx.gbl>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080424120744.025124c0@satx.rr.com>
	<f21c22e30804241838m3c40225dk8d2309cd831d02a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804242059.51879.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 24 April 2008, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> The field of computational neuroscience consists in an attempt to
> model the behaviour of real neurons. It remains to be seen just how
> detailed this modelling needs to be: whether it has to be accurate
> down to the molecular level or just the cellular level, like the
> recent IBM Blue Gene/L simulation of rat cortex
> (http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/521/djurfeldt.html).

That's Markram. :-)

http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Henry_Markram
http://bluebrain.epfl.ch/page18900.html

Some of the packages he's probably using are listed on these pages:
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_chem_linkdump
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_neuroscience
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_biology

One of my projects is an imitation project - it'd probably be more 
direct to ask him for the source code, for research interests, but I am 
interested in coming up with an overall strategy first, and then having 
him eye it over. ;-)

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 03:13:41 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:13:41 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The Kanzius Machine: A Cancer Cure?
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804241242j4659233ftc76a950060d1bed4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804241242j4659233ftc76a950060d1bed4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804242013m2a70cdb7r82320904c8de1d79@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/25 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
> Could this be the huge leap forward in cancer research we all dream about?
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/10/60minutes/main4006951.shtml

The article describes a way of killing tumour cells by selectively
attaching metal nanoparticles to them and then exposing them to radio
waves, which cook the cancer cells but leave normal cells alone. But
this is just a variation on the theme of using monoclonal antibodies
to kill tumour cells either through the normal mechanisms of the
patient's immune system or by linking the antibody with a radionuclide
or potent toxin. The main problem is not how to kill tumour cells but
how to selectively target them, which involves finding an antigen that
is selectively expressed on tumour cells and then making monoclonal
antibodies to that antigen. Despite decades of research only two
antibody therapies for cancer are widely used today: trastuzumab for
breast cancer and rituximab for B cell leukaemia and lymphoma.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 25 03:16:37 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:16:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan
In-Reply-To: <p06230901c436dffc0e41@[192.168.0.66]>
References: <p06230901c436dffc0e41@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080424221520.025a7ec8@satx.rr.com>

At 07:15 PM 4/24/2008 -0600, Amara wrote:

>Besides being a science fiction writer, he is a reputable
>mathematical physicist -
>
>for example
>http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/19/6/310
>http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/19/24/315
>http://www.springerlink.com/content/j9364141185052j0/
>http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/Cornall_Terry_420.pdf
>http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/Cornall_Terry_328.pdf

At least some of these are highly unlikely to be the Perth writer 
who, last time I heard, was working as a programmer for a hospital.

Damien Broderick 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 25 03:38:40 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:38:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
References: <BLU109-DS2BA2A49EF98E2F73D16568EE10@phx.gbl><066001c8a61a$a555c000$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080424120744.025124c0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <06e601c8a686$0463b190$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien writes

> Lee wrote:
> 
>> Look, if some computer interface attached to a bodiless
>> head simulated *all* the feedback conveyed by nerves
>> in a normally functioning body, then what would be the
>> difference?
> 
> This question seems to imply a sort of 1930s' view of the 
> organism-as-telephone-switchboard. But the brain and its 
> enabling/enabled body are not just wired circuits; they are vastly 
> elaborate rivers of liquids bearing weirdly shaped interlocking 
> molecules.

Do you have some idea of what the body is telling the
brain via this chemistry instead of through nerve
connections? Also, I don't see the point evolutionarily:
just what kind of thinking or feeling *ought* to be
a function of chemical "calculations" undertaken elsewhere
in the body? 

> The brain is as much a set of glands as it is a circuit 
> board of ons and offs. I'm no neurologist or endocrinologist, but it 
> seems very obvious to me (although it didn't back in the sixties, 
> when everything seemed simpler) that it would require a truly 
> staggering amount of parallel linear computations to model,
> in real time, the ebb and flow of neurotransmitters and other
> gooey factors that are more than simple pulses or switches.

So it's no brains in vats for you anymore, eh? And do you
suppose that paraplegics seem to be the same people and
seem to think the same way because their heart and other
organs continue to pass on up things of importance?

Lee
 
> Damien Broderick
> [currently reading Bainbridge's BEYOND THE ZONULES OF ZINN, a quite 
> charming book on the topic]



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 25 03:54:31 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:54:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <121265.2096.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <06ec01c8a688$20364610$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

The Avantguardian writes

> Lee wrote:
> 
>> Destructive upload?  Or do I get to be both "here"
>> and "there"?  It's always necessary to specify that.

And I meant to emphasize the *and*!  As in *both*!

> Well I purposely blurred the distinction between the two.
> You could call this the "delayed destructive upload" scenario.

Why sure. It was by means of this scenario in 1967 that I
managed to convince a few friends that there was a very
interesting problem here.

> Which for all intents and purposes is a destructive upload
> except in so far as the original stays alive just long enough
> to be convinced that the upload worked.

Of course.

> Would it make a difference in your answer if
> Executron shows you a stack of nature and
> Science papers detailing the authenticity of the
> process, video footage of experts extolling the
> virtues of the process, and you get to interview
> yourself or any number of satisfied customers?

What?  Without such, you would never get me
*near* a disintegrating machine. I'm hardly going
to allow myself to be disintegrated and reintegrate
somewhere if the technique is not proven beyond
almost any doubt.

The *only* interesting questions come up assuming
that it's a proven technology!

> I was trying to figure out if your enthusiasm for
> uploading extended to sacrificing your subjective
> self for the benefit of another entity that is to any
> arbitrary degree of measurement objectively you.

Yes.  If it is a molecular copy made recently, and
one of us has to die, but if the instance speaking
to you makes the choice and agrees to die, and
this is the only way that Lee Corbin's bank account
swells by $10M, it's a deal.  You see---I really
think that I *am* my duplicates. Stuart, I can
hardly believe you haven't understood me on
that long ago.

Or am I totally missing your point?

> It relates to whether an otherwise healthy
> individual has any rationale to destructively
> upload since presumably no subjective
> spark jumps the gap. Or does it? 

There are no subjective "sparks". It's neuron
firings all the way down. You are a process,
and either that process gets to run somewhere,
or it does not. In the later case you are dead
or frozen, and in the former case it doesn't
really matter for survival where it runs. And
getting to run in two different eras or two
different galaxies (at the same time or not)
confers twice the benefit.

Anything I've not answered?  Sorry if I've
missed something.

Lee



From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 04:21:30 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:21:30 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080424221520.025a7ec8@satx.rr.com>
References: <p06230901c436dffc0e41@192.168.0.66>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080424221520.025a7ec8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804242121h6cf36887r52afcc91a2b4ebdd@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/25 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
> At 07:15 PM 4/24/2008 -0600, Amara wrote:
>
>  >Besides being a science fiction writer, he is a reputable
>  >mathematical physicist -
>  >
>  >for example
>  >http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/19/6/310
>  >http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/19/24/315
>  >http://www.springerlink.com/content/j9364141185052j0/
>  >http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/Cornall_Terry_420.pdf
>  >http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/Cornall_Terry_328.pdf
>
>  At least some of these are highly unlikely to be the Perth writer
>  who, last time I heard, was working as a programmer for a hospital.

The first two references are in fact Greg Egan, the writer. The last
three are Greg K. Egan, Professor of Engineering at Monash University.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 04:38:22 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:38:22 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The point of emotions
In-Reply-To: <06e601c8a686$0463b190$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <BLU109-DS2BA2A49EF98E2F73D16568EE10@phx.gbl>
	<066001c8a61a$a555c000$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080424120744.025124c0@satx.rr.com>
	<06e601c8a686$0463b190$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804242138m7e41a241v21817052f7357454@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/25 Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>:

>  Do you have some idea of what the body is telling the
>  brain via this chemistry instead of through nerve
>  connections? Also, I don't see the point evolutionarily:
>  just what kind of thinking or feeling *ought* to be
>  a function of chemical "calculations" undertaken elsewhere
>  in the body?

Hormones are not directly involved in cognition, but are involved in
modulating the activity of neurons. For example, a deficit of
thyroxine can make a person slow, stupid, depressed or psychotic. If
you did have a brain in a vat, you would have to replicate the effects
of the endocrine system as well as the sensory inputs, and you would
have to simulate all this in a computer upload. It makes it more
difficult, but there's no reason why it couldn't in theory be done.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Fri Apr 25 13:52:09 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:52:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <48111C97.4080301@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<48111C97.4080301@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <4811E209.2080205@insightbb.com>

ben wrote:
> I don't get it.
>
> If somebody could do this, why would they need or want to compete for a
> measly $1M prize?
> The point of a prize is to encourage development of a new technology.
> The commercialisation of it comes after. These people seem to be
> offering a prize for a mature, already commercialised technology.
> They're not offering an incentive that doesn't already exist.
>
> It's as if the Ansari X prize had been for the first company to
> successfully run an orbital hotel for 6 months.
>   
Actually the X prize analogy is very good. They are looking to reward 
someone for doing something that is "possible" with our existing 
technology, but the details and specifics haven't been tested or worked 
out. A LOT of development has to happen to accomplish this just as a lot 
had to be done to make a private vehicle that could reach space and 
return within a short period of time. They aren't asking for rib-eye. 
They are asking for a lab-grown meat that has the taste and texture of 
chicken. It's really not that far out there and I expect someone will 
win this prize. A small step in the right direction, but a very 
significant one. Of course $1mil isn't enough to compensate for the 
development costs any more than Burt Rutan recovered his costs through 
the X prize. He had to develop everything from scratch as well. It's not 
like the whole launch system was made from off the shelf parts. Some 
parts were, but so will some of the parts for a meat making machine.

$1 mil isn't a lot, but it's better than a kick in the arse. And it 
comes with plenty of media attention as well. In the end the real reward 
will be the income earned from the sale of such meat.
>
>   


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Fri Apr 25 17:12:32 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:12:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>

From: PJ Manney pjmanney at gmail.com
>Hey Natasha --

Hola!

>I don't know Greg Egan from a hole in the wall, except I've read some
>of his stuff over the years.  It's quite good.

Yes.  

>I do not subscribe to anything he says, except this particular opinion
>that the word "transhumanism" does us no favors and a handful of
>techno-utopians with body issues can give the rest of us a bad rap.

I think that the meaning of "trans" in regards to "transition" has been
obfuscated to mean "anti".  We are indeed in transition but that does not
mean we forfeit our species or our humanity.  I am not an expert on species
theory, but H+ was intended to become another species.

>I'm probably much like you.  Politically moderate compared to the
>stereotypical H+ skew, like my physical self just fine, not even
>scared to die, although I'd certainly prefer to live.  I just see
>what's coming in our society like it's a movie before my eyes, the
>screen plastered on the front of a freight train heading towards me.

Agreed.  I am not sure rushing it like Ray Kurzweil is entirely correct,
but I do think he has pinpointed areas for discussion and action.  Max More
does not agree entirely with Ray. 
http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0408.html?printable=1

>Here's my concrete problem.  People ask me what I'm involved in.  I
>say "transhumanism".  They squint, brows knitting and ask as evenly as
>possible, trying not to betray their suspicion, "What's that?"  So
>immediately, I'm behind the eight-ball and that's from people who
>don't have a preconceived notion to battle against.

This continues to be an important discussion topic and one many of us have
shared our own personal talking points on and ideas for bookending the
transhuman between familiar, nonthreatening ideas to help people grasp the
concept.  

>The word has always sent up bad signals to my own ears, even before I
>knew the background to it, and that's all I have to base it on.  Words
>are important to me.  And apparently, to others as well.  Last I
>checked, a book a lot of people believe in begins a gospel with the
>words, "In the beginning, there was the word," and their god created
>the universe with just his words.  Just as that book created a
>powerful worldview with just its words.

I did not like it because of the "ism".  Transhuman as a transition is fine
with me because we have degrees of "transhuman" in early, middle late, for
example.   By the time we approach posthuman, if that is the direction we
arrive at, this will all be a moot point perhaps.


>I take first verbal impressions very seriously.  And "transhumanism"
>has never cut it.  If I didn't care so much about the issues, I'd let
>it slide as a "tried, but no cigar" attempt and move on with my life.
>But I do care.  I'm pretty invested, if anyone has noticed.

Life extensionists sounds so CR, or dietary. :-)  I usually just say I
enjoy life and hope to live in good health well past our current limited
lifespan.

>I paused in writing this to have a private chat with Mike LaTorra.  In
>the conversation, it struck me that Natasha's comment about "isms" is
>really apt.  Adding "ism" to the end of "transhuman" brings in a whole
>lot of implications about movements and agendas and coercion from one
>part of society over another -- all those concepts that people by
>nature fear.

Thank you Patricia.  Yes.

>And Mike said that I don't want to be an "ist."  I seem to have issues
>with "ists" and "isms".  But so do others, apparently, including
>Natasha.  I also have a problem with "trans" and that involves the
>notion that it's something we're always heading towards and never
>reaching.  When, in fact, we've been "trans" for a long time.  By
>definition, humans are "trans".

Evolution is not stagnant.  Humans are trans.  FM and I used the term
"trans" in classes a lot and at meetings for fun because it was easy.

>But I'm cool with "human".  We can keep that part.  ;-)

Here I take pause.  I am not content with human but respect our ability to
explore and problem solve to get us out of this level of inertia.

>As for mentioning the WTA list, I simply brought it up because it has
>the word in its name.  Can't really avoid the issue.  Extropes might
>or might not think it's such a great idea to continue the dialogue,
>but if they grew bored of it, we have another place to discuss it.
>There was no intended slight to extropes, just an offering of options.

My thinking on this is that more objective may be found here among all list
member, not just extropes, whomever they may be.  The tides seem to have
changed and this list is the most politically moderate and open.  Our WTA
list may be too politically vested for many trans.

adios me amiga,
Natasha


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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 25 20:30:50 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:30:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <4811E209.2080205@insightbb.com>
References: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<48111C97.4080301@lineone.net>
	<4811E209.2080205@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <8CA752A62CFC9C8-684-1422@webmail-de14.sysops.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>


$1 mil isn't a lot, but it's better than a kick in the arse. And it 
comes with plenty of media attention as well. In the end the real reward 
will be the income earned from the sale of such meat.

Ah, finally we get to the underlying reason. The bottom line is that we, the west will have control over supplying the rest of the starving?world with cheap meat.
We will hold the patents, equipment, knowledge and the funds to push this method of food production. Giving us the edge and presumably power over the rest of the globe.?As China reduces its food production while simultaneously demanding more and better quality food. Factory produced meat will be a license to print money.
I think?meat production?will become a hard fought race very soon, if it's not already quietly underway. I think the prize may be politically motivated rather than an altruistic gesture?

Alex




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From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 22:17:28 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:17:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>
References: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <200804251717.28637.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 25 April 2008, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> From: PJ Manney pjmanney at gmail.com
> >I do not subscribe to anything he says, except this particular
> > opinion that the word "transhumanism" does us no favors and a
> > handful of techno-utopians with body issues can give the rest of us
> > a bad rap.
>
> I think that the meaning of "trans" in regards to "transition" has
> been obfuscated to mean "anti".  We are indeed in transition but that
> does not mean we forfeit our species or our humanity.  I am not an
> expert on species theory, but H+ was intended to become another
> species.

Woah, what? Intended to become another species? The definition of 
species is breeding compatability, how many 'transhumanists' of that 
sort truly care about whether or not they are physically capable of 
breeding with another species? Plus, all of the tech that 
transhumanists talk about *allow interspecies breeding* in the first 
place, so this is nonsensical and mostly impossible. For example, see 
how we can cut and splice ecoli dna into our own embryonic cells.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 25 22:40:25 2008
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:40:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<48111C97.4080301@lineone.net><4811E209.2080205@insightbb.com>
	<8CA752A62CFC9C8-684-1422@webmail-de14.sysops.aol.com>
References: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<48111C97.4080301@lineone.net><4811E209.2080205@insightbb.com>
	<8CA752A62CFC9C8-684-1422@webmail-de14.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU106-DS171BA06397B1298C1C81EA3DD0@phx.gbl>

Alex wrote: I think the prize may be politically motivated rather than an altruistic gesture?

This prize is sponsored by PETA, which to the best of my knowledge (and I'm a long-time supporting member) hasn't "sold out" to any big-biz interests.  In fact, I encourage you to go on their website and have a long read/view to see the extent to which they have taken on the big, agra-biz interests in the past.  www.peta.org.

JWClement
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From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Apr 26 00:25:07 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:25:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <48127663.5020704@lineone.net>

Stuart LaForge said:

> It relates to whether an otherwise healthy individual has
> any rationale to destructively upload since presumably no
> subjective spark jumps the gap. Or does it?






Aaarrgghh! <bangs head against desk several times>

WHAT spark? WHAT gap?

What on earth are you talking about? This is dualist thinking. There is
no 'subjective spark'. We are soulless automata, and i don't mean that
in a pejorative sense.

It's very (very!) simple. In your scenario, there are 2 people. One is
the uploaded continuation of the original person. The other is the
non-uploaded continuation. The very instant that their experiences
become different, they become 2 different people. If the upload process
had been destructive, then there would continue to be only one person.
There can be no such thing as 'delayed destructive uploading'. Either
the person is transferred from one substrate to another, or there is a
copy made, and now there are two. The instant that their experiences
differ, you have two distinct people, neither of whom could be expected
to be any happier to sacrifice their life than they were before.

Why do people who profess to not believe in souls have problems with this?

ben zaiboc



From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Apr 26 00:59:29 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:59:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
References: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
	<067701c8a61c$0d7cb1b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <003d01c8a738$c889a450$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>

Well, dayum!  An article (masticated for the masses) somewhat sympathetic to 
longevity / immortalism has hit the cyberstands.

"Fears of a world of geezers who hog up all the resources are overblown":

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23562623/




From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Sat Apr 26 01:55:53 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:55:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alternative meat production [WAS Re:  Fame meat]
In-Reply-To: <8CA752A62CFC9C8-684-1422@webmail-de14.sysops.aol.com>
References: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<48111C97.4080301@lineone.net> <4811E209.2080205@insightbb.com>
	<8CA752A62CFC9C8-684-1422@webmail-de14.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <48128BA9.6060305@insightbb.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
>
>     $1 mil isn't a lot, but it's better than a kick in the arse. And it 
>     comes with plenty of media attention as well. In the end the real reward 
>     will be the income earned from the sale of such meat.
>
> Ah, finally we get to the underlying reason. The bottom line is that 
> we, the west will have control over supplying the rest of the 
> starving world with cheap meat.
> We will hold the patents, equipment, knowledge and the funds to push 
> this method of food production. Giving us the edge and presumably 
> power over the rest of the globe. As China reduces its food production 
> while simultaneously demanding more and better quality food. Factory 
> produced meat will be a license to print money.
> I think meat production will become a hard fought race very soon, if 
> it's not already quietly underway. I think the prize may be 
> politically motivated rather than an altruistic gesture?
>
> Alex
>
>
No. It's not political or altruistic. It's emotional. PETA members don't 
like the idea of breeding animals in lousy environments and then 
slaughtering them. If you have ever seen what really goes on in these 
"plants" you would know why. The slaughter isn't the worst of it. It's 
almost enough to me me want to skip eating meat. But alas, it just 
tastes too good! Their idea is a solid one. Knowing that there are too 
many of me out there to win their goal of stopping the processes in 
place now, they want to sponsor an alternative that will allow people 
like me to have their meat without all that. It's a brilliant example of 
capitalism working and I do agree that the race for this will heat up 
very soon. I can't wait. Once we can make meat like this, we can also 
control many of the "bad" things that are in the meat!

One thing I found today - look at this little discovery. 
http://www.physorg.com/news128350072.html
Talk about perfect timing!
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 02:31:13 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 22:31:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <003d01c8a738$c889a450$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
	<067701c8a61c$0d7cb1b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<003d01c8a738$c889a450$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804251931x7220cb1ep3f9e0c27430d4be2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:
> Well, dayum!  An article (masticated for the masses) somewhat sympathetic to
>  longevity / immortalism has hit the cyberstands.
>
>  "Fears of a world of geezers who hog up all the resources are overblown":
>
>  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23562623/
>
### Sympathetic? No, it's more like an immortalist manifesto! Caplan
is one of those uncommon people who can change their minds. I remember
emailing with him right after Dolly was cloned, and at that time he
was rather stoutly against it. He changed his mind, publicly, which
says a lot. The article is about as radically pro life-extension as
you can get without whipping out your Alcor bracelet.

Rafal


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 03:11:46 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:11:46 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <48127663.5020704@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<48127663.5020704@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804252011vab5414bx8441c5ad111b55f1@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/26 ben <benboc at lineone.net>:

>  It's very (very!) simple. In your scenario, there are 2 people. One is
>  the uploaded continuation of the original person. The other is the
>  non-uploaded continuation. The very instant that their experiences
>  become different, they become 2 different people. If the upload process
>  had been destructive, then there would continue to be only one person.
>  There can be no such thing as 'delayed destructive uploading'. Either
>  the person is transferred from one substrate to another, or there is a
>  copy made, and now there are two. The instant that their experiences
>  differ, you have two distinct people, neither of whom could be expected
>  to be any happier to sacrifice their life than they were before.

Most people would not mind a few minutes of memory loss while they
would mind if they faced destruction of the original a few minutes
after a backup copy was made. This is inconsistent, because the two
situations are equivalent. Lee would say that it should be acceptable
if you are destroyed with a short delay after your backup is made,
provided that this is in exchange for some large enough benefit for
the backup. This does restore consistency, but at the cost of what I
consider the whole point of survival: anticipation of future
experiences. If I can convince myself that anticipation of future
experiences doesn't matter, then I would have convinced myself that
death doesn't matter.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr 26 03:48:23 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 22:48:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804252011vab5414bx8441c5ad111b55f1@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<48127663.5020704@lineone.net>
	<f21c22e30804252011vab5414bx8441c5ad111b55f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080425223920.0550f040@satx.rr.com>

At 01:11 PM 4/26/2008 +1000, Stathis wrote:

>Lee would say that it should be acceptable
>if you are destroyed with a short delay after your backup is made,
>provided that this is in exchange for some large enough benefit for
>the backup. This does restore consistency, but at the cost of what I
>consider the whole point of survival: anticipation of future
>experiences. If I can convince myself that anticipation of future
>experiences doesn't matter, then I would have convinced myself that
>death doesn't matter.

Indeed. The bleakly hilarious aspect of what we might call (for 
shorthand) "Lee's position" is how triumphantly socialist in premise 
and impulse it is. Yes, I should be ready and eager to have my 
existence snuffed out if it will benefit (1) a copy of me somewhere 
else, perhaps light years away and far in the future, or just across 
the room, it makes no difference, and/or (2) the world at large, 
which will continue to be graced by the presence of my analogue or 
emulation who will be, by definition and operational test, exactly my 
equivalent. That fact that he *isn't* me, that I'm to be exterminated 
for the gratification of him or others, is sufficient motive for me 
to head to the showers or the ablation chamber.

Is that Ayn Rand I hear, drumming her heels on the floor and foaming 
at the mouth? Altruists! Collectivists! Carbon copyists!

Damien Broderick




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 26 04:27:52 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 21:27:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804251931x7220cb1ep3f9e0c27430d4be2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804260456.m3Q4u0Q7015522@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> Rafal Smigrodzki
...
> >Olga wrote:  "Fears of a world of geezers who hog up all the resources 
> are overblown":
> >
> >  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23562623/
> >
> ### ...The article is about as radically pro life-extension as you can get
without 
> whipping out your Alcor bracelet... Rafal

I particularly liked this comment:

"...opinion pieces about the prospect of people hanging around long, long
after the last broadcast of "The Price Is Right" has aired, which could be
an eternity..."

Which makes one wonder, what if The Price is Right is still around as we
approach the singularity.  Does the prevailing singularity theory predict a
runaway inflation right before a singularity?  Does currency become
meaningless?  Does it remain stable just before, since few anticipate or
even understand what is happening at the time?  Is there such a thing as
prevailing singularity theory?

Interesting that I have been reading ExI-chat for well over a decade and SL4
for a long time but still can't give convincing answers to these questions.

spike



   



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 26 06:14:32 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:14:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<48127663.5020704@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <073d01c8a765$13844470$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Ben writes

> Stuart LaForge said:
> 
>> It relates to whether an otherwise healthy individual has
>> any rationale to destructively upload since presumably no
>> subjective spark jumps the gap. Or does it?
> 
> Aaarrgghh! <bangs head against desk several times>
> 
> WHAT spark? WHAT gap?
> 
> What on earth are you talking about? This is dualist thinking. There is
> no 'subjective spark'. We are soulless automata, and i don't mean that
> in a pejorative sense.

Quite right.

> It's very (very!) simple.

Quite wrong.

> In your scenario, there are 2 people. One is the
> uploaded continuation of the original person.
> The other is the non-uploaded continuation.

And if you have a bit of amnesia, are you still
a "continuation", Ben? The whole stupid word
"continuation" was spread about by Nozick and
his inane "closest continuer" idea way back in
the 80's.

> The very instant that their experiences
> become different, they become 2 different
> people.

Be very careful of saying that something happens
at "an instant". Remember what the pro-lifers say
about "the instant of conception".  Nature does
not go for "instants"---almost always, it's some
human misconception that is causing us to attribute
some dramatic difference to "an instant".

> If the upload process had been destructive, then
> there would continue to be only one person.
> There can be no such thing as 'delayed destructive
> uploading'. Either the person is transferred from
> one substrate to another, or there is a
> copy made, and now there are two. The instant
> that their experiences differ, you have two distinct
> people,

Not so. Everything about them is COMPLETELY
IDENTICAL.  From the point of view of physics,
just how can you say that there are now *two*
people?  As soon as a copy of a book is made,
are there now two books?  In the *important*
sense, there is just one book (the information is
what is important, not the substrate!).

> neither of whom could be expected to be any
> happier to sacrifice their life than they were before.

Then IMNSHO, that's because they're not up to
speed on identity. If your identical duplicate is in
the next room, your instance should be approximately
as disappointed as he is the one of you who has to die.
It wouldn't matter that much to me which of us has to
die, given that extremely unfortunate stipulation, just
as the removal of 24 hours' memories wouldn't matter
that much to me (and here we are talking about suitable
compensation, say, $10M for starters).

Alas, I suppose that one instance of you would 
desperately try to see to it that it was the other
instance who had to die, even if that meant Ben
Z. was to be $10M poorer as a result. Again,
the *physics* of the situation says that there is
no important difference between you---and you
just have to get used to that idea.

> Why do people who profess to not believe in souls
> have problems with this?

There are two basic reasons. The first is that people have
not completely expunged the feeling that they have a soul.

The second reason is that people still cling to the very
first thing they learned as infants:  anything outside my
skin cannot possibly be me.

Yes, Stuart appears to be in the first category, but you
are still in the second.

Lee



From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr 26 06:21:26 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 02:21:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fame meat
In-Reply-To: <BLU106-DS171BA06397B1298C1C81EA3DD0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.67.1208982144.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<48111C97.4080301@lineone.net><4811E209.2080205@insightbb.com>	<8CA752A62CFC9C8-684-1422@webmail-de14.sysops.aol.com>
	<BLU106-DS171BA06397B1298C1C81EA3DD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CA757CE40DEBA3-59C-309C@Webmail-mg12.sim.aol.com>

Interesting reading, thanks for the link.





-----Original Message-----
From: James Clement <clementlawyer at hotmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:40
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fame meat



Alex wrote:?I think the prize may be politically motivated rather than an altruistic gesture?

This prize is sponsored by PETA, which to the best of my knowledge (and I?m a long-time supporting member) hasn't "sold out" to any big-biz interests.? In fact, I encourage you to go on their website and have a long read/view to see the extent to which they have taken on the big, agra-biz interests in the past.? www.peta.org.

?

JWClement




_______________________________________________
xtropy-chat mailing list
xtropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 26 06:20:56 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:20:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><48127663.5020704@lineone.net>
	<f21c22e30804252011vab5414bx8441c5ad111b55f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <074101c8a765$c7811480$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stathis writes

> Most people would not mind a few minutes of memory loss while they
> would mind if they faced destruction of the original a few minutes
> after a backup copy was made. This is inconsistent, because the two
> situations are equivalent.

Right.

> Lee would say that it should be acceptable if you are destroyed
> with a short delay after your backup is made, provided that this
> is in exchange for some large enough benefit for the backup.
> This does restore consistency,

Right. And it's the only way I've ever found to do so.

> but at the cost of what I consider the whole point of survival:
> anticipation of future experiences. If I can convince myself
> that anticipation of future experiences doesn't matter, then
> I would have convinced myself that death doesn't matter.

As we've exchanged before, I don't think that anticipation
is sacrificed. But anticipation seems to be only an emotion,
and I've had to abandon trying to make consistent use of
it as anything more.  I, as a particular instance, *do* anticipate
waking up in my bed tomorrow (and a lot richer!), even though
my frozen duplicate in the next room is without the last few
mintues of my memories. 

But the emotion anticipation cannot be made consistent.
If Nurse Ratchet approaches my duplicate with the needle
it's that instance of me that must cringe, not this instance,
despite what physics is saying about the equivalence of
events. Do you believe that anticipation can be made
wholly consistent and logical?

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 26 06:29:23 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:29:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><48127663.5020704@lineone.net><f21c22e30804252011vab5414bx8441c5ad111b55f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080425223920.0550f040@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <074701c8a767$2edfad20$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien amusingly notes

> The bleakly hilarious aspect of what we might call (for 
> shorthand) "Lee's position" is how triumphantly socialist
> in premise and impulse it is.

Yes, I had noticed this irony thirty or forty years ago  :-)

> Yes, I should be ready and eager to have my existence
> snuffed out

sarcastically presuming the answer to the whole question,
presuming that what is Damien cannot possibly be anywhere
outside the skin of the instance of Damien that is speaking.

(If books could opine, one particular copy of "Origin of Species"
would possibly have the same irrational fear.)

Two things that are exactly the same have the same properties.
And so if one of them is you, then so is the other. Get used to it.

> if it will benefit (1) a copy of me somewhere else, perhaps
> light years away and far in the future, or just across 
> the room, it makes no difference,

Recall that this is predicated on the EXTREMELY
UNFORTUNATE stipulation that one of us must "die".

> and/or (2)  the world at large, which will continue to be
> graced by the presence of my analogue or emulation
> who will be, by definition and operational test, exactly
> my equivalent.

Nor is altruism a proper part of the discussion. I'm always
talking about what an MSI (most selfish individual) should
do in order to survive, and survive in style.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 26 06:36:07 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:36:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
References: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <075101c8a767$e31f2b80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Natasha writes

> I am not sure rushing it like Ray Kurzweil is entirely correct,
> but I do think he has pinpointed areas for discussion and action.
> Max More does not agree entirely with Ray. 
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0408.html?printable=1

That's a huge article, filled with a lot that looks like very old hat
around here.

I would love to see a bulleted list of a few items of where
Max and Ray disagree. I'll bet a lot of people would.

Lee



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Sat Apr 26 07:08:07 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:08:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <380-220084626787694@M2W041.mail2web.com>


From: Bryan Bishop
of "trans" in regards to "transition" has
> been obfuscated to mean "anti".  We are indeed in transition but that
> does not mean we forfeit our species or our humanity.  I am not an
> expert on species theory, but H+ was intended to become another
> species.

Woah, what? Intended to become another species? 

No!  My mistake!  I sent an email last night saying I left out the "not". 
I'm just tired.  If you rad the previous sentence it says "does not mean we
forfeit our species ..."

>but H+ was [not] intended to become another
> species.

Sorry for the confusion. 

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology -
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Sat Apr 26 06:11:32 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:11:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <200804260456.m3Q4u0Q7015522@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <7641ddc60804251931x7220cb1ep3f9e0c27430d4be2@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804260456.m3Q4u0Q7015522@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804252311m6e8e898ah2269222ee3fcce62@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 9:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  Which makes one wonder, what if The Price is Right is still around as we
>  approach the singularity.  Does the prevailing singularity theory predict a
>  runaway inflation right before a singularity?  Does currency become
>  meaningless?  Does it remain stable just before, since few anticipate or
>  even understand what is happening at the time?  Is there such a thing as
>  prevailing singularity theory?
>
>  Interesting that I have been reading ExI-chat for well over a decade and SL4
>  for a long time but still can't give convincing answers to these questions.

It may help to consider that the fundamental economics of supply and
demand are as unlikely to change as are the fundamental laws of
physics, but the position of an individual agent within the system is
continuing to change in the direction of decreasing scarcity.
"Pricing" has meaning only in relation to perceived scarcity, and we
can expect that while the overall system will continue to heat up,
humans will perceive a flip from economics of conflict over scarcity
to an economics of cooperation for growth.

What answers do you feel are lacking?  As with the perennial
"problems" of probability, causality, free will, consciousness,
personal identity and morality that so perplex so many "rationalists"
on these lists, righteously conflating rationality with objectivity,
an effective understanding depends on context.   The system will
continue to heat up, but individual awareness won't keep up the pace.

How much would the richest person person of 20 or 50 years ago have
been willing to pay for the health care, entertainment and information
resources we commonly take for granted today?

- Jef


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 26 08:46:36 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:46:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
References: <200804260456.m3Q4u0Q7015522@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <077b01c8a77a$2036f360$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Spike writes

> [Rafal wrote]
> 
>> ### ...The article is about as radically pro
>> life-extension as you can get without 
>> whipping out your Alcor bracelet... Rafal

It didn't even mention cryonics...hardly radical in my view.

> ...Which makes one wonder, what if The Price is Right is still around as we
> approach the singularity.  Does the prevailing singularity theory predict a
> runaway inflation right before a singularity?

No, because "inflation is always and everywhere  
a monetary phenomenon" --- Milton Friedman. 
Money itself follows the laws of supply and demand,
almost the same way everything else does. If
governments "print" too much then prices go up,
and if too little is printed, prices go down (everything
else being equal).

The "print" is in quotes, because the actual amount of
money is mainly controlled by the Fed in terms of the
prime interest rate it charges borrowing banks. Good
economists all know that the money supply should be
caused to expand by about 3% per year in America,
to reflect real growth (and thus maintain price stability).
Government sponsors inflation to cheat the public and 
transfer wealth in a hidden way from the public to
government in lieu of raising taxes. (It also has the
advantage of punishing prudence, punishing saving,
and rewarding living on credit.) The U.S. government
basically paid off its WWII debt through inflation.

> Does currency become meaningless?  Does it remain stable just
> before, since few anticipate or even understand what is happening
> at the time?

It may depend on the precise scenario, as you imply
next. For example, if people feel that some tremendous
change is about to happen, many might reason that there
is no further reason to save or to defer gratification. For
example, suppose that I knew that the singularity was
going to happen next week. How would my actions
change?

Well, for one thing, given my own beliefs, I'd reckon that
with .5 probability I had a week left to live. Now if I'm
going to be dead, then I might as well live it up. On
the other hand, if I'm going to live, the economy will
be completely different (so far as I know, and I've
actually given little thought to this---thanks for asking).
Either way, maybe we should expect a run on goods,
and so a last minute steep inflation as goods become
scarce relative to dollars.

Lee

> Is there such a thing as prevailing singularity theory?



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 09:47:08 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:47:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <003d01c8a738$c889a450$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
	<067701c8a61c$0d7cb1b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<003d01c8a738$c889a450$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804260247s4cc3930ei41498e3d1620bf21@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 1:59 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote:
> Well, dayum!  An article (masticated for the masses) somewhat sympathetic to
>  longevity / immortalism has hit the cyberstands.
>
>  "Fears of a world of geezers who hog up all the resources are overblown":
>

Yes, it is a good article for mainstream media.
As western countries have ageing populations, more and more older
people have an interest in ageing problems.  So as the older
demographic is increasing, therefore the media will cater more to
their interests. Older people are still customers who can be sold
stuff!

He mentions increasing the age of retirement. Euro countries are
already doing this.
Mainly to avoid government pension schemes going bankrupt. In
socialist Euroland, this mainly hits responsible people who have saved
for their retirement. Increasing the age of retirement doesn't mean
there are jobs for all older people. It just means you don't get the
government pension until later. In the jobless gap period you either
spend your savings or claim welfare.

But then he contradicts himself by saying that employers could offer
early retirement to allow younger people to progress in the company.
Employers cannot afford pensions any more than government can. I have
read somewhere that General Motors spends more on the pension scheme
than it does on making cars.

His reference to 'The Price is Right' raises another problem. How many
repeats of 'The Price is Right' do older folk actually want to watch?
Getting an interest or hobby is what keeps them going. Reading the
letters after the article, it looks as though many of these over 60s
people have made looking after themselves as their main hobby. Diet,
exercise, vitamin pills, cosmetic treatments, etc. seem to occupy a
lot of their time.

If we got a yearly 'anti-ageing' injection, what would they do with their time?

I know all the 20 - 30 year olds on the list will immediately respond
that they can study to be physicists or engineers or become great
artists, etc.  But there is an ennui that comes with age. Older folk
look at all these youngsters rushing around 'doing stuff' with a sort
of bemusement. 'Why bother? What's all the fuss about?'

There is more to living longer than just eating, sleeping and watching tv.
After 100 will people really *want* it?


BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 12:58:41 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 22:58:41 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <074101c8a765$c7811480$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <mailman.75.1209097312.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<48127663.5020704@lineone.net>
	<f21c22e30804252011vab5414bx8441c5ad111b55f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<074101c8a765$c7811480$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804260558g3b203a1cu9d156560858c5791@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/26 Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>:

>  But the emotion anticipation cannot be made consistent.
>  If Nurse Ratchet approaches my duplicate with the needle
>  it's that instance of me that must cringe, not this instance,
>  despite what physics is saying about the equivalence of
>  events. Do you believe that anticipation can be made
>  wholly consistent and logical?

No, it can't, because it depends on the assumption that there is an
objective sense in which I am "the same person" as past and future
versions of my present self. There is an objective sense in which I
bear an arbitrarily specified relationship to other entities, but what
this relationship should be to qualify as "survival" is contingent on
evolved psychology, and nature doesn't care about making our
psychology consistent and logical. If for some reason nature had found
it expedient to make us believe that we don't survive sleep, it would
be easy enough to define "survival" objectively given that we can
define "sleep" objectively. However, there is no *objective* reason to
define survival in this way rather than another way. What counts as
survival is a contingent fact of evolution, not a logical or empirical
fact.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:15:18 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:15:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <077b01c8a77a$2036f360$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <200804260456.m3Q4u0Q7015522@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<077b01c8a77a$2036f360$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804260615n4cd1d8f5l11bdef12026a02f1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 4:46 AM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> Spike writes
>
>  > [Rafal wrote]
>
> >
>  >> ### ...The article is about as radically pro
>  >> life-extension as you can get without
>  >> whipping out your Alcor bracelet... Rafal
>
>  It didn't even mention cryonics...hardly radical in my view.

### But he is the "dean of bioethicists", meaning the official steward
of the mainstream, so even without cryonics this is radical.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:24:26 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:24:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-220084626787694@M2W041.mail2web.com>
References: <380-220084626787694@M2W041.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804260624i2c3a4f3q5e7a6096439921d1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 3:08 AM, nvitamore at austin.rr.com
<nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  From: Bryan Bishop
>  of "trans" in regards to "transition" has
>  > been obfuscated to mean "anti".  We are indeed in transition but that
>  > does not mean we forfeit our species or our humanity.  I am not an
>  > expert on species theory, but H+ was intended to become another
>  > species.
>
>  Woah, what? Intended to become another species?
>
>  No!  My mistake!  I sent an email last night saying I left out the "not".
>  I'm just tired.  If you rad the previous sentence it says "does not mean we
>  forfeit our species ..."
>
>  >but H+ was [not] intended to become another
>  > species.
>
>  Sorry for the confusion.
>
>
### A Freudian slip? :)

Don't worry, making another species is really OK. In fact, there may
be lots of new somewhat human species made, and adventurous spirits
will no doubt want to go body-hopping to experience and compare them
all. There will be many species, but no impermeable boundaries between
them.

Rafal


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:34:11 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:34:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804260634l7c7f5675w7503f9f532726d2f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>  where Greg Egan offers remarks such as:
>
>  <The word "transhumanism" (or, even worse, "posthumanism") sounds
>  like a suicide note for the species, which effectively renders it a
>  political suicide note for any movement by that name.
>...
>  And I'm not sure quite how much solidarity I'm compelled to have with
>  someone, just because they've also noticed that we're not going to
>  see out the millennium with physical substrates identical to those
>  we've had for the last 200,000 years. People who think their manifest
>  destiny is to turn Jupiter into computronium so they can play 10^20
>  characters simultaneously in their favourite RPG are infinitely more
>  odious and dangerous ...>

Why, while I must confess that this is quite disconcerting, this is
really a capital example of how "arttistic" works have a life and a
meaning that is entirely independent from the conscious or other
intentions and convictions of their author.

Aldous Huxley, by the way, is IMHO another one.

Stefano Vaj


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:41:30 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:41:30 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804260247s4cc3930ei41498e3d1620bf21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
	<067701c8a61c$0d7cb1b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<003d01c8a738$c889a450$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<ee50357e0804260247s4cc3930ei41498e3d1620bf21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804260641l13f89c81sc87ff15f5eb5d487@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/26 BillK <pharos at gmail.com>:

>  If we got a yearly 'anti-ageing' injection, what would they do with their time?
>
>  I know all the 20 - 30 year olds on the list will immediately respond
>  that they can study to be physicists or engineers or become great
>  artists, etc.  But there is an ennui that comes with age. Older folk
>  look at all these youngsters rushing around 'doing stuff' with a sort
>  of bemusement. 'Why bother? What's all the fuss about?'
>
>  There is more to living longer than just eating, sleeping and watching tv.
>  After 100 will people really *want* it?

If ennui comes with age then it's due to physical and mental
deterioration, not to the accumulation of experience. There are
depressed twenty year olds who see no purpose in living and manic
eighty year olds who have so many plans and ideas that they forget to
eat and sleep.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:35:05 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:35:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804260635x4db1bb36o54fe8ff6325013ba@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 4:01 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on it,
> and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it?


### "Suppose we can't stop charity"? Man, we *are* so far apart. Charity is
the true expression of good intentions. It is sharing your own with others.
It is the noblest behavior. I am not charitable... but at least I do
recognize it to be the superior expression and proof of moral fiber. Of
course, if you have a few hundred million affluent people, some of them are
guaranteed to be willing to support basic science. It is the success of the
free human spirit if we rely on it.

---------------------


> The main
> purpose of taxation is to pay for that which the taxpayers consider
> worthwhile but which the free market won't provide, or won't
> efficiently and fairly provide.


### But no, taxation is mainly just a way of transferring money from those
who earn it to those who have political power. Free trade can provide
everything that's worthwhile.

---------------------------


> Charity is fickle and degrading; when
> I'm given something I want it to be because I'm entitled to it.


### The way I see it, the only, only thing you are entitled to is freedom
from violence. You don't have any rights to anybody's time, money,
resources. You don't have the right to take anything from others against
their will. Even if there are 50 million of people like you, you still don't
have the right to take anything from me. Merely "wanting" doesn't entitle
you to anything.
-------------------------

>
> A lot of government research spending has been into war-making
> techniques, especially in the US and the Soviet Union. That's bad, but
> it doesn't negate the fact


### But it does! If there is an unavoidable downside to a course of action,
a cost that outweighs the benefit compared to the available alternatives,
then yes, that cost negates the benefit. You can't justify concentration
camps by the good anatomical research that was done there - it is all
negated by the slaughter. Government-funded research will be always
predominantly political, most likely militaristic, always wasteful.
------------------------------

>
> As for propaganda and the space program, so what? It's a tragedy that
> the propaganda appeal of manned space flight wore off after the first
> few moon landings. Do you see private entrepreneurs stepping in with a
> few trillion to colonise Mars or the asteroids?
>

### So you feel you are *entitled* to take from other people their hard
earned money and having it literally burned on perfectly useless adventures
that benefit nobody? You would want to spend 5 trillion dollars of other
people's money to send a few useless fighter pilots to Mars? Why?

Space travel for humans is generally a bad idea. Humans are not made for
living in space, and there is nothing useful for us to do in space that
can't be much more efficiently done by robots. Once uploading technologies
are developed, we'll see an explosion of private space travel, without a
single stolen dime.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:46:30 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:46:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804260646p1027f911i2f8b4b5dc5adf888@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>  Much of the money collected is wasted. It would be better if this
>  money were left in the hands of the taxpayers

### Taken out of your context, these sentences perfectly encapsulate
what I think about taxation.

------------------

>  If my house burns down my insurance company will pay to build me a
>  replacement. This is despite the fact that I may only have paid a few
>  hundred dollars in premiums: the deal was that if it burns down, they
>  will pay, and I don't feel guilty about taking the money from all the
>  other policyholders whose houses don't burn down.

### This was a voluntary deal: Nobody forced the folks at the company
to write you an insurance contract. Nobody gets hurt here, in fact,
since both parties (you and the company) enter the contract willingly,
a presumption of a positive sum game can be made.

--------------------

Similarly, the deal
>  in the country where I live is that if I earn income I will pay a
>  proportion of it to the Government, and in return I will receive
>  certain services if I need them.

### No, this is not the "deal". I never was given the choice to accept
or reject the taxman. Neither did you.

--------------------
>
>  You will doubtless point out that I am free not to insure my house but
>  that isn't always an option. If I live in an apartment building I will
>  be forced to pay my share for insurance and other maintenance costs,
>  simply because the majority of the other owners have voted that way.

### There is a whole order of magnitude difference between changing an
apartment and changing your country. I can tell you that from my own
experience. This means that choice in countries is much more limited
than in apartments, and states are whole networks of enforcers,
illegitimately restricting my choice of laws.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:51:18 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:51:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804190052o74cf4c63q5ef05229cfd673e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDB25B77-646D-4C9F-B548-FF09C3856BD9@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190052o74cf4c63q5ef05229cfd673e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804260651i74f6c128nc3266e02bebda93f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Let's say that there is a project that may be undertaken in a country
>  of 1 million people that will cost $100 million and will provide $200
>  of utility, on average, to each citizen. The nature of the project is
>  such that the utility is spread across the entire population, i.e. if
>  a wealthy individual decides to fund the whole thing himself he will
>  still probably only get $200 of utility for his investment. Such a
>  project will likely be funded through taxation, but not through the
>  free market, except as an act of charity.

### Give me an example of any scientific project that had similar
economic parameters, was successfully funded by a government, and
couldn't have been commercialized. Just one example.

Rafal


From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 26 13:25:54 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
Message-ID: <999264.42224.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ben said:

It's very (very!) simple. In your scenario, there are 2 people. One is
the uploaded continuation of the original person. The other is the
non-uploaded continuation. The very instant that their experiences
become different, they become 2 different people. If the upload process
had been destructive, then there would continue to be only one person.
There can be no such thing as 'delayed destructive uploading'. Either
the person is transferred from one substrate to another, or there is a
copy made, and now there are two. The instant that their experiences
differ, you have two distinct people, neither of whom could be expected
to be any happier to sacrifice their life than they were before.


--

This is a very good explanation. I think I understand now how yourself and Lee are looking at this.

For my own understanding (and I think perhaps continuing the thought behind the original thought experiment) I have two questions:

1. What criteria would be necessary to make uploading a "proven technology"? What experiments would have to be conducted in order to sufficiently convince you that the upload was in fact a direct continuation, rather than just a feeble simulation? For, while it may maintain the stuctural (physical) pattern of the brain, the temporal processes ongoing in the brain (and the way it processes incoming data) may behave differently purely due to its existence in a new strata.

2. This is more a point than a question. It seems to me as though this point of view is based on a rather 'externalist' understanding of the self. What I mean is, While I can look at two books which are identical and say "yes, they are the same thing" and this is acceptable, I cannot point to something outside of my own skin and say "that is myself" - not for any reason of a soul etc, but because "I" implies a subjective perspectival quality; if you are pointing, then clearly the thing you are pointing to is outside of yourself. While it may share all the traits, when both are looked at from the outside, I can see that object from the outside whereas it is logically impossible to see my own subjectivity from the outside. I think this perhaps could be called the 'subjective' sense of identity as opposed to the 'pattern' sense of identity. I think both are valid in their own way, but we need to accept that there is a difference here.

Thus, while I could say of someone else that the upload and the non-upload are to all intents and purposes the same, I could not say that of myself and my upload, for the very fact that I am a subject and my upload is an object. Whereas in the previous case, both the upload and the non-upload are objects.

Does this make sense? Have I misrepresented anyone?

Mike




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 13:54:43 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:54:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-220084626787694@M2W041.mail2web.com>
References: <380-220084626787694@M2W041.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804260654x57ee4db5g72cc44b6952a2924@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 9:08 AM, nvitamore at austin.rr.com
<nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>  No!  My mistake!  I sent an email last night saying I left out the "not".
>  I'm just tired.  If you rad the previous sentence it says "does not mean we
>  forfeit our species ..."
>
>  >but H+ was [not] intended to become another
>  > species.

Becoming another species? Mmhhh, diacronically speaking the concept of
species - as defined as the occurring of "natural" interbreeding - has
a few problem itself. And of course it does not even vaguely apply to
any kind of non-biological future.

But *speciating*, meaning evolving in multiple, and possibly diverging
directions, including at a biological level, is fine with me.

Sure, this may have little to do with a reduction in our ability to
interbreed (by the way, even purely ethological reproductive
segregation is enough to define a species), especially since the
specific barriers are going to fall in general for the living world
for all practical purposes; but this does not prevent us to identify
different "species" among protozoas that reproduce by mitosis.

And I do not really see what all the specieist rhetorics about being
"human" is about. Humanity being a conventional term, it may well be
used to indicate all our biological descendants much beyond any
reasonable point of recognition or (theoretical) ability to
interbreed, and it would not change much in the fact that they might
end up being more different from us than we are from the first mammals
appeared on Earth.

That this may be unacceptable by some sectors of the mainstream public
(many of whom may not even accept the fact of being "descended from
apes") indicates more the cultural biases in the same public, than
some fundamental PR mistake of those who do not find anything special
in such a prospective.

Stefano Vaj


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 14:36:51 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 07:36:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
Message-ID: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>

Last Monday night I attended a Templeton Foundation Research Lecture that
was part of their ongoing series on Transhumanism.  The speaker was ASU
professor Dan Sarewitz and his topic was, "Can technology make us better?"
He attacked Dr. James Hughes (who helped host last year's ASU Transhumanist
workshop) idea that by raising the average IQ of a democratic citizenry that
you can make them more informed and capable citizens, who can then better
defend democratic values.  He felt there was no real connection there.  I
wanted to "magically" remove 50 IQ points from his brain and then ask him,
"are you feeling just as capable a worker and contributing citizen as you
did before?"  After all, as a professor he is a member of America's
intellectual/high IQ elite.  Or does he only want a relative few to be in
that club?

Sarewitz went on to say the two key challenges facing humanity would not be
helped by aggressive intelligence augmentation.  The first challenge regards
individuals, groups and societies experiencing conflicting values and world
views and trying to deal peacefully with each other.  The second challenge
dealt with humanity's ability to predict and manage the future.  He pointed
out that extremely bright and educated people/think tanks have guided
nations into very stupid policies/wars over the years and done great damage
and so why should even brighter technologically augmented folks do better?
I thought to myself that perhaps we should instead use biotech to *weaken*
our collective intelligence...  His talk seemed to inadvertently point out
very bright people as a threat to humanity! LOL

The speaker did grudgingly admit that the technologies Transhumanists
endorse will be coming into being whether he likes it or not.  And he stated
the primary mover for this was military and economic competitiveness between
nations.  He saw this as the main reason why reasonable people like him had
to swing into action and carefully control and regulate these new
technologies.

I did like his concern about inequality in relation to the subject and it
was a person in the Q & A session who brought up the classic scenario of
rich parents buying their unborn offspring genetic enhancements, causing
even greater gaping inequities within society.  But Sarewitz to my surprise
did mention how in time treatments might become cheaper as they are easier
to do.  And so in time, due to the "trickle down effect," middle class
parents could afford these treatments to enhance their own children.

After the lecture he mingled with the crowd over refreshments and then the
real venom against Transhumanism came pouring out.  Sarewitz very mockingly
referred to the Singularity as a crazy essentially religious obsession
Transhumanists had.  And he spoke about how they envisioned god-like
computers running things and saving us from ourselves.  Sarewitz ridiculed
Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity is Coming" and said the predictions
were pie in the sky overly optimistic and basically just plain wrong.  Oh,
and the matter of Transhumanist fear of death (especially in middle aged
Transhumanists) was also brought up as a reason why the Singularity was
predicted to be within the lifespan of many somewhat older Transhumanists.
As I listened to all of this I thought to myself, "these people really don't
like Transhumanists and want to totally marginalize us!"  And to think I
always thought the Evangelicals and not the academics would be our sparring
partners. lol

This is a link to an online forum some ASU Professors created to form their
ideas for a "*general repudiation of Transhumanism*."

http://www.studiesinthetranshuman.blogspot.com/


John Grigg
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 14:48:27 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:48:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804260748t2d7958cfj40034270e4e992e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 4:36 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> He attacked Dr. James Hughes (who helped host last year's ASU Transhumanist
> workshop) idea that by raising the average IQ of a democratic citizenry that
> you can make them more informed and capable citizens, who can then better
> defend democratic values.  He felt there was no real connection there. ...
> Sarewitz went on to say the two key challenges facing humanity would not be
> helped by aggressive intelligence augmentation.  The first challenge regards
> individuals, groups and societies experiencing conflicting values and world
> views and trying to deal peacefully with each other.  The second challenge
> dealt with humanity's ability to predict and manage the future.  He pointed
> out that extremely bright and educated people/think tanks have guided
> nations into very stupid policies/wars over the years and done great damage
> and so why should even brighter technologically augmented folks do better?

One is entitled to have a few doubts about that, but the point is
really simple. Either intelligence augmentation is irrilevant, and in
such case one hardly sees why it should be prevented. Or it is a good
thing per se, under one aspect or another, as most of us would think,
including at a societal level, and including in the case that it would
not really contribute to the overall happiness or efficiency of a
given society. Or it is a negative thing, and in such case such
critics would seem to suggest that H+ techs be put at use to reduce
the average intelligence, or perhaps to re-orient it in a different
direction.

Hardly the kind of transhumanism I would happily embraced, but a
stance that it is nevertheless at odd with any kind of bioluddism, the
latter requiring us to believe blindly that human intelligence - or
for that matter any other human feature - is "just right", perfect,
for now and for any conceivable future.

Stefano Vaj


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 15:13:33 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:13:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804260641l13f89c81sc87ff15f5eb5d487@mail.gmail.com>
References: <380-22008442485431550@M2W021.mail2web.com>
	<067701c8a61c$0d7cb1b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<003d01c8a738$c889a450$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<ee50357e0804260247s4cc3930ei41498e3d1620bf21@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804260641l13f89c81sc87ff15f5eb5d487@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804260813q7e888f5bs96ea324f30942c1a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>  If ennui comes with age then it's due to physical and mental
>  deterioration, not to the accumulation of experience. There are
>  depressed twenty year olds who see no purpose in living and manic
>  eighty year olds who have so many plans and ideas that they forget to
>  eat and sleep.
>

Yea, I've heard about 80 year olds like that.  Really annoying, aren't they?
Can't they get medication for that nowadays?   ;)

I should say that the ennui I refer to doesn't mean unhappiness. If
anything, older folk seem to be happier than when they were in the rat
race. (Providing that they remain in reasonable health and have no
money problems).
That's the point. They don't want to go back to the rat race.

It is like a 'seen it, done it, got the t-shirt' attitude. When a
possible mini project is suggested, they remember when they did
something not too different. They quite enjoyed the experience, but
then they think about all the steps involved, packing, travelling,
lodging, airport harassment, etc. and say 'It's just too much trouble.
You youngsters go and I'll look at your photos'.

If they were younger, you'd call it laziness.  :)  But most retirees
don't have the drives for money, power and new experiences that they
had when they were young. (Excluding the usual few exceptions, of
course).


BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr 26 15:14:01 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:14:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080426100141.024dc6d8@satx.rr.com>

At 07:36 AM 4/26/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:

>Last Monday night I attended a Templeton Foundation Research Lecture 
>that was part of their ongoing series on Transhumanism.

That is, a series sponsored by an avowedly religious foundation 
dedicated to finding links between religion and science.

>The speaker was ASU professor Dan Sarewitz

Did he declare his own religious affiliations, if any?

>After the lecture he mingled with the crowd over refreshments and 
>then the real venom against Transhumanism came pouring 
>out.  Sarewitz very mockingly referred to the Singularity as a crazy 
>essentially religious obsession Transhumanists had.

It is very striking how often it is the religious in particular who 
mock and assail others because their ideas are "crazy" and 
"religious." Presumably it isn't *just* that such ideas are 
"religious" but that they are also "crazy," unlike their own entirely 
sane religious ideas (sticks turned into snakes, seas parted at 
command, rotation of the earth halted for a day, virgin births, 
magical revival from the dead, wine turned into water, bread turned 
into god, golden plates revealed by angels, gods with elephant's 
heads, all that completely sensible stuff).

Damien Broderick






From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 26 14:47:01 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 07:47:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] singularity models,
	was RE:  Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740804252311m6e8e898ah2269222ee3fcce62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804261515.m3QFF7Wt029848@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


 
> Jef Allbright
> ...
> >
> >  Interesting that I have been reading ExI-chat for well 
> over a decade 
> > and SL4  for a long time but still can't give convincing 
> answers to these questions.
> 
> ...
> 
> What answers do you feel are lacking? ...> - Jef


Jef, what I find frustrating about singularity theory is that I have no way
to use my most powerful tools: mathematical modeling.  I use math to
understand everything that I feel I know about.  Without equations, I am
left trying to describe things with words.  I like words, I'm a big fan of
them, but they don't get the job done.  I have yet to see, nor can I
conceive of how to describe the singularity with variables and good solid
system of simultaneous differential equations that can be solved to yield
insights and predictions.

Example: engineers study a field of math called feedback and control theory.
Negative feedback is what prevents most physical systems from reaching
singularities.  A speaker/microphone system would explode without negative
feedback.  Aim the microphone toward the speaker, the system amplifies
random noise until a howl is created, but that howl doesn't keep getting
louder until the system explodes because of the negative feedback imposed by
the physical limitations of the system.

I hafta think there must be negative feedback in the singularity, but I just
don't know what are those mechanisms.

spike





From scerir at libero.it  Sat Apr 26 15:13:24 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:13:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI]  ghosts
References: <380-220084626787694@M2W041.mail2web.com>
	<580930c20804260654x57ee4db5g72cc44b6952a2924@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301c8a7b0$14ac0680$4c074797@archimede>

... a beam is split, with part going to the object 
before hitting a photon-counting detector to capture 
light scattered from the object and part going 
an equal distance to a digital camera ... where 
the object began appearing after about a thousand 
coincident pairs of photons were recorded ...

the present experiment
http://focus.aps.org/story/v21/st14

Yanhua Shih et al.
A CCD array is placed facing a chaotic light source 
and gated by a photon counting detector that simply 
counts all randomly scattered and reflected
photons from an object. A "ghost" image of the object 
is then observed in the gated CCD. Differing from 
all published ghost-imaging experiments, this setup 
captures ghosts from scattered and reflected light 
of an object, instead of the transmitted ones. 
This new feature is not only useful for practical 
applications, but is also important fundamentally. 
It further explores the nonclassical interference 
nature of thermal light ghost imaging.

the best reviews on quantum imaging
and those past experiments with SPDC
sources and with thermal sources
http://arxiv.org/abs/0707.0268
http://arxiv.org/abs/0706.2097



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr 26 15:30:40 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:30:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080426100141.024dc6d8@satx.rr.com>
References: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080426100141.024dc6d8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080426102850.0551db60@satx.rr.com>

At 10:14 AM 4/26/2008 -0500, I wrote:

>magical revival from the dead, wine turned into water

The devil made me write that backwards. Any fool can turn wine into water.  



From godsdice at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 15:33:43 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:33:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804231833o76a6ac36k575113c13bafa93c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804191608v6a707f9bk90cb87e234379796@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<051f01c8a440$aabe7590$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<052901c8a445$fb6ccf50$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804221502q68f3b736o35904750ab0dde8@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804231833o76a6ac36k575113c13bafa93c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804260833h1db7b649s868a35210c369182@mail.gmail.com>

John wrote:

On 4/23/08, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ric Strongitharm wrote/quoted:
> "Faith, the size of a mountain, can't budge a mustard seed."
> >>>
>
> Ahh, but what is the nature of faith?  Absolute 100% belief as a
> motivating force for action can work wonders.
>
> John  : )
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> Absolute, 100% belief is blinding dogma.  The "wonders" that it works
include suicide bombings, indoctrination of children and infanticide (eg.
Andrea Yates, et al).

Furthermore, placebos are know to work wonders.

I'd rather have an information-backed opinion than faith.  :>)

Rick
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 16:00:28 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:00:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080426102850.0551db60@satx.rr.com>
References: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080426100141.024dc6d8@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080426102850.0551db60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804260900l4ca34c66n840245472930726f@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote:
>magical revival from the dead, wine turned into water

Wine turned into water?  Dang, alright!  And so Jesus is Mormon!  ; )

you continue:
>Did he declare his own religious affiliations, if any?

Actually, yes.  He said he is a secular humanist/atheist.  Damien, you seem
to have the wrong idea about this lecture/symposium series.  The Templeton
Foundation is avowedly religious, but their funds went toward secular
academics gathering together and having a largely secular discussion about
Transhumanism.  And so your diatribe against religion was not necessary. : )

It was a group of very secular academics who asked for that "general
repudiation of Transhumanism."  Don't you understand Damien, it is your *own
kind* that don't like us...  I attended a workshop symposium this
past Friday with the same group and I will later on post about my
experiences there.  It was not always pleasant to say the least.

John Grigg  : (
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 16:18:12 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 02:18:12 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804260651i74f6c128nc3266e02bebda93f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDB25B77-646D-4C9F-B548-FF09C3856BD9@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804190052o74cf4c63q5ef05229cfd673e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804260651i74f6c128nc3266e02bebda93f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804260918u2b822712j1010e10579d98eef@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/26 Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >  Let's say that there is a project that may be undertaken in a country
>  >  of 1 million people that will cost $100 million and will provide $200
>  >  of utility, on average, to each citizen. The nature of the project is
>  >  such that the utility is spread across the entire population, i.e. if
>  >  a wealthy individual decides to fund the whole thing himself he will
>  >  still probably only get $200 of utility for his investment. Such a
>  >  project will likely be funded through taxation, but not through the
>  >  free market, except as an act of charity.
>
>  ### Give me an example of any scientific project that had similar
>  economic parameters, was successfully funded by a government, and
>  couldn't have been commercialized. Just one example.

It's difficult if you're going to disagree that anything is worthwhile
*unless* it can be commercialised. The Apollo project "lost" billions
of dollars of taxpayer money while soft drink manufacturers had
comparably large sales through the workings of the free market. Does
that make soft drink a more significant achievement than the moon
landing?



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From scerir at libero.it  Sat Apr 26 15:53:18 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:53:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
References: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080426100141.024dc6d8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c8a7b5$a63aa700$4c074797@archimede>

Damien:
> ... sticks turned into snakes, seas parted at 
> command, rotation of the earth halted for a day, 
> virgin births, ...

Virgin births, plural?
Actually there is an interesting case 
here (Genesis, 16-21)

Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed 
and said to himself, "Shall a child be born 
to a man who is a hundred years old? 
Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, 
bear a child?"
.......
Abraham was an hundred years old, 
when his son Isaac was born unto him.
And Sarah said, "God has made laughter 
for me; everyone who hears will laugh 
over me." And she said, "Who would have 
said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse 
children? Yet I have borne him a son 
in his old age." 

 



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 26 16:44:16 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:44:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <001c01c8a7b5$a63aa700$4c074797@archimede>
Message-ID: <200804261646.m3QGjkSj014159@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir...
> 
> Damien:
> > ...  virgin births ...

I have heard that virgin birth has been commonly attributed to religious
figures.  The notion predates the Christ brothers.
 
> Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to 
> himself, "Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? 
> Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" ...

There is a reason why I chose the name Isaac for my son, beyond merely
honoring Newton and Asimov.  If you read the story of Isaac, son of Abraham
in the book of Genesis (chapters 17-28), he generally sounds like a good
guy, with some character flaws.  Certainly he has brought much laughter into
the lives of his elderly parents.

spike










From jef at jefallbright.net  Sat Apr 26 17:20:47 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:20:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] singularity models,
	was RE: Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <200804261515.m3QFF7Wt029848@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <f7bfe5740804252311m6e8e898ah2269222ee3fcce62@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804261515.m3QFF7Wt029848@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804261020j6defd6a6r3cad6ae829216ced@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 7:47 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  Jef, what I find frustrating about singularity theory is that I have no way
>  to use my most powerful tools: mathematical modeling.  I use math to
>  understand everything that I feel I know about.  Without equations, I am
>  left trying to describe things with words.  I like words, I'm a big fan of
>  them, but they don't get the job done.  I have yet to see, nor can I
>  conceive of how to describe the singularity with variables and good solid
>  system of simultaneous differential equations that can be solved to yield
>  insights and predictions.

Spike, your response appears symptomatic of the very problem I tried
to emphasize (and which was elided with your characteristic tact.)
Your expectation that the dynamics be modelable in such terms presumes
a context greater than the system of interest.  This is the
time-honored traditional approach to Proof of Understanding, and it's
perfectly valid but doesn't scale to describing and predicting the
behavior of complex (and I don't mean complicated) systems.

I'm sure you're familiar with modeling of complex dynamical systems,
such as those involving turbulent flow, but consider that in all such
cases the environment (the context) is assumed to be well-defined.

I'm not saying we should abandon our mathematical models -- indeed,
they become increasingly vital to effective decision-making in an
increasingly complex world -- but that they and their interpretation
must be a qualitative level more sophisticated and necessarily
probabilistic (and I don't mean statistical.)

In its more general sense, prediction is not about saying what
**will** happen, but about realistically constraining the
possibility-space of what may happen.  Having a well-defined context
is only a special case.


>  Example: engineers study a field of math called feedback and control theory.

I'm quite familiar with feedback and control theory, having worked in
scientific instrumentation close to three decades.  All such theory
assumes a well-defined environment, simpler than the system of
interest.

Related to this theme is the observation that a key differentiator
correlated with troubleshooting experience (wisdom) is that
inexperienced troubleshooters will approach a complex problem asking
"what is it?" while more experienced troubleshooters approach in terms
of probabilities of what can be ruled out, until what remains is their
answer.

>  Negative feedback is what prevents most physical systems from reaching
>  singularities.  A speaker/microphone system would explode without negative
>  feedback.  Aim the microphone toward the speaker, the system amplifies
>  random noise until a howl is created, but that howl doesn't keep getting
>  louder until the system explodes because of the negative feedback imposed by
>  the physical limitations of the system.
>
>  I hafta think there must be negative feedback in the singularity, but I just
>  don't know what are those mechanisms.

Some pointers of possible interest:

*  The IEEE paper I mentioned a week or so ago on growth of value of
networks as n(log n).
*  Google 'logistic function'
*  Google 'mathematics coevolution'
*  Google 'mathematics "self-organization"'

- Jef


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr 26 18:43:42 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:43:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804260900l4ca34c66n840245472930726f@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <2d6187670804260736o44425e6bvc0b87fea44c92f78@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080426100141.024dc6d8@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080426102850.0551db60@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670804260900l4ca34c66n840245472930726f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080426131647.02561a28@satx.rr.com>

At 09:00 AM 4/26/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:

> >Did he declare his own religious affiliations, if any?
>
>Actually, yes.  He said he is a secular humanist/atheist.

Interesting, thanks.

>Damien, you seem to have the wrong idea about this lecture/symposium 
>series.  The Templeton Foundation is avowedly religious, but their 
>funds went toward secular academics gathering together and having a 
>largely secular discussion about Transhumanism.

Why would they do that, do you suppose? Does the Randi Foundation 
spend millions of dollars funding Episcopalian prelates to debate the 
virtues of FLDS polygamy, or of Scientology processing?

>And so your diatribe against religion was not necessary. : )

A "diatribe" is defined as either "a bitter and abusive speech or 
writing" or "ironic or satirical criticism." What I wrote about the 
way so-called "people of faith" often ridicule science or secular 
humanist ideas as "religious" was neither; it was just an 
observation. If simply listing the kinds of claims made by 
"believers" is held to constitute bitter abuse, something interesting 
about such claims is being revealed. If it's said to be ironic or 
satirical, then sure, I'll cop to that, if pressed--but note that 
"satire" requires some element of preposterous exaggeration, which is 
exactly what I *didn't* need. If people cling solemnly to laughable 
nonsense as their deepest truth, they can't angrily complain that 
they're being mocked just because this nonsense is reported in public 
(which is just what Scientologists do when Xenu is mentioned).

Serafino: many pagan religious (and even political) figures were 
either virgin births or fathered by a god, including (after a quick 
dip into the web) Mithras, Danae, Melanippe, Auge, Antiope, Herakles, 
Pythagoras, Apollonius of Tyana, Plato, Augustus Caesar, Alexander 
the Great, Theagenes the Olympic Champion. Mithras also rose from the dead.

Damien Broderick





From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 26 17:43:47 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:43:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>
	<200804251717.28637.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>
	<200804251717.28637.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS3262321F156DA34D1BAFC8EDC0@phx.gbl>

From: "Bryan Bishop" <kanzure at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 12:17 AM

Yeah, I may be a bit late on reacting to this, but I haven't been on the 
internet for some time...

> On Friday 25 April 2008, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
>> From: PJ Manney pjmanney at gmail.com
>> >I do not subscribe to anything he says, except this particular
>> > opinion that the word "transhumanism" does us no favors and a
>> > handful of techno-utopians with body issues can give the rest of us
>> > a bad rap.

Interesting. I have no problem with my current self, I am 190 cm and weigh 
80 kilos and all that entails (plus I had a fracture 8 years ago, that just 
haunts me ever since but that's another matter). Despite these facts, I 
would not hesitate a bit to have all kinds of devices attached to me. So am 
I a geek with bodily issues, who just seeks remedy in cyborgization?


>> I think that the meaning of "trans" in regards to "transition" has
>> been obfuscated to mean "anti".  We are indeed in transition but that
>> does not mean we forfeit our species or our humanity.  I am not an
>> expert on species theory, but H+ was intended to become another
>> species.

I'll snip out the comments for now, excuse me for that. This sounds 
interesting to me. Have you ever come to think about the fact that 
transhuman and posthuman includes 'human'? This is a necessary step forward 
in evolution, I suppose. Evolution still goes on naturally as well. Just 
consider the height of this generation for instance. And the cognitive 
capacity as well (true). Then we might just speed it up a little bit and 
what we get is even more human, right? Besides, I suppose the word 
transhuman and H+ sound well enough to be said with no intention of huge 
alterations. Does a pacemaker make you a cyborg (it does, but does it change 
your human attitude)? I think not, and this holds for every other 
enhancement as well. 



From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 26 17:43:47 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:43:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>
	<200804251717.28637.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <380-220084525171232717@M2W019.mail2web.com>
	<200804251717.28637.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS2BF558810A50D1152DF858EDC0@phx.gbl>

From: "Bryan Bishop" <kanzure at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 12:17 AM

Yeah, I may be a bit late on reacting to this, but I haven't been on the 
internet for some time...

> On Friday 25 April 2008, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
>> From: PJ Manney pjmanney at gmail.com
>> >I do not subscribe to anything he says, except this particular
>> > opinion that the word "transhumanism" does us no favors and a
>> > handful of techno-utopians with body issues can give the rest of us
>> > a bad rap.

Interesting. I have no problem with my current self, I am 190 cm and weigh 
80 kilos and all that entails (plus I had a fracture 8 years ago, that just 
haunts me ever since but that's another matter). Despite these facts, I 
would not hesitate a bit to have all kinds of devices attached to me. So am 
I a geek with bodily issues, who just seeks remedy in cyborgization?


>> I think that the meaning of "trans" in regards to "transition" has
>> been obfuscated to mean "anti".  We are indeed in transition but that
>> does not mean we forfeit our species or our humanity.  I am not an
>> expert on species theory, but H+ was intended to become another
>> species.

I'll snip out the comments for now, excuse me for that. This sounds 
interesting to me. Have you ever come to think about the fact that 
transhuman and posthuman includes 'human'? This is a necessary step forward 
in evolution, I suppose. Evolution still goes on naturally as well. Just 
consider the height of this generation for instance. And the cognitive 
capacity as well (true). Then we might just speed it up a little bit and 
what we get is even more human, right? Besides, I suppose the word 
transhuman and H+ sound well enough to be said with no intention of huge 
alterations. Does a pacemaker make you a cyborg (it does, but does it change 
your human attitude)? I think not, and this holds for every other 
enhancement as well. 



From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Apr 26 19:24:17 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:24:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Not Immoral to Want to Be Immortal
In-Reply-To: <mailman.80.1209217317.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.80.1209217317.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <48138161.2070907@lineone.net>

From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

 >His reference to 'The Price is Right' raises another problem. How many
 >repeats of 'The Price is Right' do older folk actually want to watch?
 >Getting an interest or hobby is what keeps them going. Reading the
 >letters after the article, it looks as though many of these over 60s
 >people have made looking after themselves as their main hobby. Diet,
 >exercise, vitamin pills, cosmetic treatments, etc. seem to occupy a
 >lot of their time.
 >
 >If we got a yearly 'anti-ageing' injection, what would they do with 
their time?
 >
 >I know all the 20 - 30 year olds on the list will immediately respond
 >that they can study to be physicists or engineers or become great
 >artists, etc.  But there is an ennui that comes with age. Older folk
 >look at all these youngsters rushing around 'doing stuff' with a sort
 >of bemusement. 'Why bother? What's all the fuss about?'
 >
 >There is more to living longer than just eating, sleeping and watching tv.
 >After 100 will people really *want* it?


Ha!

OK, we all know that life-extension will by definition mean "healthy 
life-extension" (I'd like to think that nobody reading this is going to 
be a victim of the Tithonus fallacy), and in practice this will mean 
rejuvenation. Where does the ennui that comes with old age come from? Is 
it just a matter of experience? Or is it down to biochemistry?

I know which i'd put my money on.

Therefore, (assuming that the answer is indeed 'biochemistry') the 
newly-young will have just as much bounciness as the first-time young - 
maybe more, in fact - and they will know (and appreciate all the more!) 
just exactly what all the fuss is about.

Are you not old enough to have ever thought "Ooh, the stuff i'd do if i 
was 20 (or 30 or 40...) years younger, and knew what i know now!"

In fact, thinking about this, i wouldn't be surprised if the advent of 
proper life-extension technology sparked a renaissance like we've never 
seen before. And the word would be more appropriate than it's ever been!

ben zaiboc


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 26 20:14:48 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:14:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080426131647.02561a28@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804262043.m3QKgsnD014267@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


 
> ...to debate the virtues of FLDS polygamy... Damien Broderick

I noticed a roaring silence here with regard to the Texas FLDS compound that
was recently raided and the children removed.  I recognize that this is not
really the right forum for such discussion, but the legal precedent thus
established is stunning.

spike










From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Sat Apr 26 23:09:38 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:09:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
Message-ID: <380-22008462623938865@M2W002.mail2web.com>


From: M1N3R m1n3r2 at hotmail.com 

>Have you ever come to think about the fact that 
>transhuman and posthuman includes 'human'? 

Yes of course it includes "human."  How could it not?  

>Does a pacemaker make you a cyborg (it does, but does it change 
>your human attitude)? I think not, and this holds for every other 
>enhancement as well. 

No, I don't think a pacemaker equals a cyborg at all.  It is just an
adjustment to the functioning of a heart.  There are more specific
criterian which in many ways determines a transhuman in early, middle and
late stages, to be sure, but this continues to be fuzzy.

I never felt comfotable with cyborg. I mean, it is so metal and all.  
Transhuman fits the bill better I think.

Natasha

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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 23:44:35 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:44:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804260634l7c7f5675w7503f9f532726d2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080423110217.02702da8@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20804260634l7c7f5675w7503f9f532726d2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804261844.36000.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 26 April 2008, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> Why, while I must confess that this is quite disconcerting, this is
> really a capital example of how "arttistic" works have a life and a
> meaning that is entirely independent from the conscious or other
> intentions and convictions of their author.

Yes, I need to stop emailing scifi authors, I keep getting disappointed.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr 26 23:45:21 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:45:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804260737g5345d567nba704553aecd2c5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804260737g5345d567nba704553aecd2c5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804261845.21810.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 26 April 2008, John Grigg wrote:
> Last Monday night I attended a Templeton Foundation Research Lecture
> that was part of their ongoing series on Transhumanism.  The speaker
> was ASU professor Dan Sarewitz and his topic was, "Can technology
> make us better?" He attacked Dr. James Hughes (who helped host last
> year's ASU Transhumanist workshop) idea that by raising the average
> IQ of a democratic citizenry that you can make them more informed and
> capable citizens, who can then better defend democratic values.  He

Sorry, raising IQ does not mean raising awareness and it doesn't mean 
raising capability, there are many high IQ individuals that are 
basically 'worthless' in terms of democracy, that aren't living full 
and capable lives, etc.

> felt there was no real connection there.  I wanted to "magically"
> remove 50 IQ points from his brain and then ask him, "are you feeling
> just as capable a worker and contributing citizen as you did before?"

Citizenry and nationalism just don't work out in this day and age, time 
to update your ideas. :-) There's more than just living as a citizen - 
you can live as a person, a human. Now, if you want to go create an 
society where everybody has a certain Mensa membership or something, go 
right ahead, sure, but then you seem to turn this around in your next 
sentence:

>  After all, as a professor he is a member of America's
> intellectual/high IQ elite.  Or does he only want a relative few to
> be in that club?

So now you're saying that you *don't* want IQ elitism. Make up your 
mind.

> Sarewitz went on to say the two key challenges facing humanity would
> not be helped by aggressive intelligence augmentation.  The first
> challenge regards individuals, groups and societies experiencing
> conflicting values and world views and trying to deal peacefully with
> each other.  The second challenge dealt with humanity's ability to
> predict and manage the future.  He pointed out that extremely bright
> and educated people/think tanks have guided nations into very stupid
> policies/wars over the years and done great damage and so why should
> even brighter technologically augmented folks do better? I thought to
> myself that perhaps we should instead use biotech to *weaken* our
> collective intelligence...  His talk seemed to inadvertently point
> out very bright people as a threat to humanity! LOL

Nah, I bet he was just trying to say that very bright people that try to 
control humanity are the threat, not that intelligence itself is the 
threat. Power corrupts, etc. That sort of thing.

> The speaker did grudgingly admit that the technologies Transhumanists
> endorse will be coming into being whether he likes it or not.  And he
> stated the primary mover for this was military and economic
> competitiveness between nations.  He saw this as the main reason why
> reasonable people like him had to swing into action and carefully
> control and regulate these new technologies.

You both sound like tech regulators ... you have your 'tech democracy' 
stuff, he wants to regulate it so that you don't enforce those 
tech-democracy requirement stuffs, whatever. Same thing, same sides of 
the spectrum, nothing new.

> I did like his concern about inequality in relation to the subject
> and it was a person in the Q & A session who brought up the classic
> scenario of rich parents buying their unborn offspring genetic
> enhancements, causing even greater gaping inequities within society. 
> But Sarewitz to my surprise did mention how in time treatments might
> become cheaper as they are easier to do.  And so in time, due to the
> "trickle down effect," middle class parents could afford these
> treatments to enhance their own children.

Looks like he's still thinking about scarcity economics, meanwhile 
transhumanists have been talking post-scarcity for decades -- see 
self-replicating tech, like Merkle, Freitas, Drexler, RepRap, fabbing, 
etc. So I don't think this guy is particularly informed. ;-)

> After the lecture he mingled with the crowd over refreshments and
> then the real venom against Transhumanism came pouring out.  Sarewitz
> very mockingly referred to the Singularity as a crazy essentially
> religious obsession Transhumanists had.  And he spoke about how they
> envisioned god-like computers running things and saving us from
> ourselves.  Sarewitz ridiculed Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity
> is Coming" and said the predictions were pie in the sky overly
> optimistic and basically just plain wrong.  Oh, and the matter of
> Transhumanist fear of death (especially in middle aged
> Transhumanists) was also brought up as a reason why the Singularity
> was predicted to be within the lifespan of many somewhat older
> Transhumanists. As I listened to all of this I thought to myself,
> "these people really don't like Transhumanists and want to totally
> marginalize us!"  And to think I always thought the Evangelicals and
> not the academics would be our sparring partners. lol

Ignore him. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sun Apr 27 00:38:40 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:38:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <999264.42224.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07de01c8a7ff$66444b70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael Miller writes

> For my own understanding... I have two questions:
>
> 1. What criteria would be necessary to make uploading
>      a "proven technology"? What experiments would have
>     to be conducted in order to sufficiently convince you...

It amounts very much to the delightful thought experiment
wherein you swap memories with some stranger from
Mongolia, and then (since you are now in Mongolia)
travel back to whatever city you currently reside in.
How could you convince your spouse, your children,
your parents, your co-workers, the police, and so on
that you are really the same Michael Miller?

I don't think it would take very long, granted that you
already have fairly normal relationships with a number
of people. To their incredulity and amazement, you'd
rather quickly convince them that you *had* to be
Michael Miller.

Suppose that I agree to be "uploaded", where the quotes
indicate that the process is as yet unproven, and, of course,
the process is non-destructive. For example, reputable
scientists claim that by attaching electrodes to the skull
of an ape, they've been able to upload the ape, but, for
example, it thinks at only half normal speed (they promise
better CPU performance will be available next year).

Even if he was talking only half as quickly as I, but nonetheless
speaking English, I could confirm after a few hours that this
entity was indeed me. 

> 2. This is more a point than a question. It seems to me as
> though this point of view is based on a rather 'externalist'
> understanding of the self.

If you mean that the possibility of uploading is even conceivable,
I would say "yes", but many will demur. We have a number of
people who cannot entertain the idea that they could be in two
places at once, and so by definition an upload cannot be them.
They would accept only proven, demonstrable, but destructive
uploading.

I would call the uploading view (where what happens to the
original is philosophically immaterial) to be the "objective" view.
But I understand your 'externalist', I think: doesn't it simply
amount to "objective"?

> What I mean is, while I can look at two books which are
> identical and say "yes, they are the same thing" and this is
> acceptable, I cannot point to something outside of my own
> skin and say "that is myself"

Wait.  What about your best friend?  Can you look at two
copies of him and say that they are the same person?
Recall that they act completely the same, and if named
"Fred", each resembles the other Fred even more closely
than he resembles the Fred of last week. (So therefore
if each really is the same person as Fred of last week, it's
obvious---to me, at any rate---that they are the same
person as each other. But too many people simply find
this conclusion unacceptable, despite the logic.)

> - not for any reason of a soul etc., but because "I" implies
> a subjective perspectival quality; 

Only on *one* meaning of "I".  There really wouldn't be
any trouble for those who agree with me being able to
say "I am here, but I am also in Nebraska. Here I'm
attending conference A, but there I'm visiting relatives."
It really becomes inescapable were memory merging to
be accomplished. I "prove" that under this hypothesis
duplicates are self: http://www.leecorbin.com/dupproof.html

> Thus, while I could say of someone else that the upload
> and the non-upload are to all intents and purposes the
> same, I could not say that of myself and my upload, for
> the very fact that I am a subject and my upload is an
> object.

Naturally, I'd just press you to practice the *objective*
or 'externalist' point of view. It would hardly be the first
time in your life that your subjectivity has mislead you.
Why, subjectively, the Earth isn't even moving!

> Does this make sense? Have I misrepresented anyone?

You make sense to me, and I've noted where I don't agree
with at least your terminology.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sun Apr 27 01:55:05 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:55:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
References: <200804262043.m3QKgsnD014267@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <083101c8a809$eca138e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Spike notes
 
>> ...to debate the virtues of FLDS polygamy... Damien Broderick

[Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints]

> I noticed a roaring silence here with regard to the Texas FLDS compound that
> was recently raided and the children removed.  I recognize that this is not
> really the right forum for such discussion, but the legal precedent thus
> established is stunning.

I hope that the silence you refer to is not just because
we have become so completely used to, so inured, and 
so completely accustomed to governmental outrages
and abuses against private parties that it just doesn't
seem noteworthy anymore.

Lee
 


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Fri Apr 25 15:52:35 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:52:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism defined, 1937.
Message-ID: <9ff585550804250852s3d2834aakbe40470848b2bd98@mail.gmail.com>

*PREFACE:* *I came across the (rather lengthy) definition of Transhumanism
below, which I thought I'd share with everyone, since the topic of naming
our common overlapping set of beliefs, aims and goals has been raised again
by the discussion launched on Russell Blackford's blog*  that drew comments
there from Greg Egan, James Hughes and probably several others by now.
Additional discussion has appeared on these lists (ExI and WTA-Talk). I
maintain that definitions are somewhat arbitrary, but I believe the name
Transhumanism is worth keeping.*

*-- Mike LaTorra*
**
** Russell's blog:  **
http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/04/transhumanism-still-at-crossroads.html
*<http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/04/transhumanism-still-at-crossroads.html>


-= ((( . . . ))) =-
......................................................................................................................................................................................


"I am well aware that several philosophies affirm or imply that all
consciousness is of necessity time conditioned. But since this is
undemonstrable, it has only the value of arbitrary assertion, which is
countered by simple denial. This affirmation or implication is incompatible
with the basis realized or assumed here?whichever way it may be taken. At
this point I simply deny the validity of the affirmation and assert that
there is a Root Consciousness that is not time conditioned. It may be valid
enough to assert that human consciousness qua human is always time
conditioned, but that would amount merely to a partial definition of what is
meant by human consciousness. In that case, the consciousness that is not
time conditioned would be something that is transhuman or nonhuman. I am
entirely willing to accept this view, but would add that it is in the power
of man to transcend the limits of human consciousness and thus come to a
more or less complete understanding of the factors that limit the range of
human consciousness qua human. The term 'human' would thus define a certain
range in the scale of consciousness?something like an octave in the scale of
electromagnetic waves. In that case, the present system implies that it is,
in principle, possible for a conscious being to shift his field of
consciousness up and down the scale. When such an entity is focused within
the human octave it might be agreed to call him human, but something other
than human when focused in other octaves. Logically, this is simply a matter
of definition of terms, and I am more than willing to regard the human as
merely a stage in consciousness, provided it is not asserted dogmatically
that it is impossible for consciousness and self-identity to flow from stage
to stage. On the basis of such a definition this philosophy would not be a
contribution to Humanism but to Transhumanism."





-- Franklin Merrell-Wolff, *The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an
Object.* (1937). Chapter 5, pp. 121-122. Quoted from the 1973 edition,
Julian Press, New York. The work is currently available within the
compilation titled *Franklin Merrell-Wolff's Experience and
Philosophy.*State University of New York Press (1994).
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From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 04:49:47 2008
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 00:49:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <083101c8a809$eca138e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <200804262043.m3QKgsnD014267@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<083101c8a809$eca138e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Spike notes
>
> >> ...to debate the virtues of FLDS polygamy... Damien Broderick
>
> [Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints]
>
> > I noticed a roaring silence here with regard to the Texas FLDS compound
> that
> > was recently raided and the children removed.  I recognize that this is
> not
> > really the right forum for such discussion, but the legal precedent thus
> > established is stunning.
>
> I hope that the silence you refer to is not just because
> we have become so completely used to, so inured, and
> so completely accustomed to governmental outrages
> and abuses against private parties that it just doesn't
> seem noteworthy anymore.
>
> Lee
>
>
>
I'm not so sure. Polyamory is one thing. Forcing 12-year-olds to have sex
with adults because "it's God's Will" is quite another, methinks.

Joseph
http://www.seculartranshumanist.com
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 09:33:39 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:33:39 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <07de01c8a7ff$66444b70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <999264.42224.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<07de01c8a7ff$66444b70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804270233n5992cd2br9573881480bd0ba7@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/27 Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>:

>  Wait.  What about your best friend?  Can you look at two
>  copies of him and say that they are the same person?
>  Recall that they act completely the same, and if named
>  "Fred", each resembles the other Fred even more closely
>  than he resembles the Fred of last week. (So therefore
>  if each really is the same person as Fred of last week, it's
>  obvious---to me, at any rate---that they are the same
>  person as each other. But too many people simply find
>  this conclusion unacceptable, despite the logic.)

This seems paradoxical if you assume that "personal identity" has to
be synonymous with a particular physical definition for identity, but
it is the physical definition that has to be adjusted in order to
capture the psychological intuition. Fred_1 could reason as follows:

"Fred_2 in the next room is more similar to me than Fred_(last week)
was. Clearly, I am the same person as Fred_(last week) but not the
same person as Fred_2, so the simplistic assumption that I am the same
person as someone who bears a certain minimal degree of similarity to
me must be wrong. A revised criterion is needed that gives an answer
in accord with intuition in such cases; for example, that I am the
same person as someone whose memories are a subset of my memories,
provided that this person is not extant at the same time as I am. This
tentative attempt at a definition may of course need to be revised
again in the light of new thought experiments."




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 27 05:57:49 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 22:57:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Bloch
	...

		Spike notes

		>>> ...Texas FLDS compound that
		>>> was recently raided and the children removed...
		
		>>I hope that the silence you refer to is not just because
		we have become so completely used to, so inured, and
		so completely accustomed to governmental outrages
		and abuses against private parties that it just doesn't
		seem noteworthy anymore... Lee
		

	>I'm not so sure. Polyamory is one thing. Forcing 12-year-olds to
have sex with adults because "it's God's Will" is quite another, methinks.
	
	Joseph
	

No, neither of these, and do let me assure you I am not defending any
religious group.  The critical civics lesson here is that the Texas Child
Protective Services has set a precedent that it can seize one's children on
a rumor without due process or legal proof of allegations.  The CPS had a
mole inside the compound for four years, yet the report that spurred the
seizing of the children was evidently bogus, made by one who had never been
inside the compound.

With this action, the Texas CPS demonstrates that the constitutional rights
associated with depriving one of liberty or property does not apply to
depriving one of one's children.  A weird sort of logic is applied: taking
one's children is not exactly depriving one of liberty, nor is it depriving
one of property for one's children are not one's property.  Therefor the
TCPS can take the children, if the TCPS decides any of the following
criteria are met:

1.  Girls are being forced to marry against their will
2.  Boys are being taught to be abusers perhaps later in life
3.  Girls are being impregnated before the age of consent
4.  A threat to the safety of the children exists in the home
5.  Children are being taught that polygamy is acceptable
6.  Young girls are being married to old men.

The fact that the feds did not stop this action, nor did the ACLU raise more
than a token objection tells me that the Texas CPS has now the authority and
the duty to seize the children of *any* family that is proven to be Muslim.
Look at the list above.  Does the Muslim religion allow any or all of these?
If one were a Texas Muslim with children, my advice would be to flee that
state forthwith.

spike




   



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr 27 06:00:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 01:00:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism defined, 1937.
In-Reply-To: <9ff585550804250852s3d2834aakbe40470848b2bd98@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <9ff585550804250852s3d2834aakbe40470848b2bd98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080427005310.02435ef8@satx.rr.com>

At 09:52 AM 4/25/2008 -0600, Mike LaTorra wrote:

>PREFACE: I came across the (rather lengthy) definition of Transhumanism below

[partial quote:]
>The term 'human' would thus define a certain 
>range in the scale of consciousness?something 
>like an octave in the scale of electromagnetic 
>waves. In that case, the present system implies 
>that it is, in principle, possible for a 
>conscious being to shift his field of 
>consciousness up and down the scale. When such 
>an entity is focused within the human octave it 
>might be agreed to call him human, but something 
>other than human when focused in other octaves. 
>Logically, this is simply a matter of definition 
>of terms, and I am more than willing to regard 
>the human as merely a stage in consciousness, 
>provided it is not asserted dogmatically that it 
>is impossible for consciousness and 
>self-identity to flow from stage to stage. On 
>the basis of such a definition this philosophy 
>would not be a contribution to Humanism but to Transhumanism."
>
>-- Franklin Merrell-Wolff

This is not, IMO, a *definition* of >H (as 
understood here), but rather a mystical posit or 
allegation. It might be possible to retcon# this 
passage once a truly augmented consciousness 
arises on earth, but at the moment this claim 
strikes me as unadulterated twaddle. Colin Wilson 
would like it, usually a bad sign.

Damien Broderick
#Here I adapt and repurpose 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon < Retroactive 
continuity (or informally retcon) is the 
deliberate changing of previously established 
facts in a work of serial fiction. The change 
itself is informally referred to as a "retcon", 
and the act of writing and publishing a retcon is called "retconning". >



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr 27 10:41:54 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 11:41:54 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.83.1209253317.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <866052.39166.qm@web27011.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Spike mentioned the raid on the FLDS compound. I'm sure the authorities
felt entirely justified in their actions, what with these particular
FLDS members being followers of Warren Jeffs, a long time member of the
FBIs ten most wanted list until his arrest, and there being definite
allegations from underage girls about sexual abuse. What with it being
a compound in the gun-loving state of Texas, I can understand that
maybe the authorities thought a heavily armed presence was needed.
 If a community in Britain was under such accusations, the authorities
may not have acted in time - the neighbours would have come in and
lynched the menfolk by the testicles, as sexual abuse of minors is the
crime most likely to trigger "mob justice" in this country.

Actually, in Britain we did have one notorious case of the authorities
swooping in to take kids on bad information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ronaldsay_child_abuse_scandal

The "satanic abuse" case where nineteen children were removed because
of dubious interviews by social workers. Reading the media reports of
the time, it was like the Salem witch trials happening in 1990s
Britain.

If the court case shows any evidence of sex with women below the age of
consent in the state of Texas, I'm sure many of the men in that
compound will be going to jail for long periods. The state of Texas
does not treat mormons in the way that one Australian court treated an
aboriginal community.

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 27 11:30:16 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:30:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <380-22008462623938865@M2W002.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22008462623938865@M2W002.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS1C6DEE25F0918350441B68EDF0@phx.gbl>

From: <nvitamore at austin.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:09 AM

> I never felt comfotable with cyborg. I mean, it is so metal and all.
> Transhuman fits the bill better I think.

First thought that came to me was the film Terminator. Did you see that? 
Arnold was a "living tissue over metal endoskeleton" pronounced with a 
German accent :D. But this need not be so. And as the definition is, a 
cyborg is a person (or entity) who depends on technology in its everyday 
life. I have glasses, thus I am a cyborg. I wouldn't be able to live without 
technology. I always have my laptop with me, for example. Now, a person who, 
without a pacemaker, would die in an instant, finely satisfies the 
definition of a cybernetic organism. Oh, and if you have organic 
augmentations (wetware add-ons), you still are a cyborg :) I may be wrong 
about this... Don't take me wrong, I like the word Transhuman, but I used 
cyborg for so many years as a child, without ever knowing that there was 
something like bionics and finally, transhumanism this year.

Thomas Pardy 



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 11:56:45 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:56:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:57 AM, spike wrote:
>
>  No, neither of these, and do let me assure you I am not defending any
>  religious group.  The critical civics lesson here is that the Texas Child
>  Protective Services has set a precedent that it can seize one's children on
>  a rumor without due process or legal proof of allegations.  The CPS had a
>  mole inside the compound for four years, yet the report that spurred the
>  seizing of the children was evidently bogus, made by one who had never been
>  inside the compound.
>
>  With this action, the Texas CPS demonstrates that the constitutional rights
>  associated with depriving one of liberty or property does not apply to
>  depriving one of one's children.  A weird sort of logic is applied: taking
>  one's children is not exactly depriving one of liberty, nor is it depriving
>  one of property for one's children are not one's property.  Therefor the
>  TCPS can take the children, if the TCPS decides any of the following
>  criteria are met:
>
>  1.  Girls are being forced to marry against their will
>  2.  Boys are being taught to be abusers perhaps later in life
>  3.  Girls are being impregnated before the age of consent
>  4.  A threat to the safety of the children exists in the home
>  5.  Children are being taught that polygamy is acceptable
>  6.  Young girls are being married to old men.
>
>  The fact that the feds did not stop this action, nor did the ACLU raise more
>  than a token objection tells me that the Texas CPS has now the authority and
>  the duty to seize the children of *any* family that is proven to be Muslim.
>  Look at the list above.  Does the Muslim religion allow any or all of these?
>  If one were a Texas Muslim with children, my advice would be to flee that
>  state forthwith.
>


Spike, I think you are exaggerating here, from a horrified libertarian's POV.

Texas had an abuse complaint that justified entry to the premises.
The show of force was obviously to deter gun-happy nuts from starting trouble.
Child abuse is against Texas law and allows the removal of children.
Once they entered the premises they saw young girls with babies, so
child abuse was evident.
As it was a commune, all the adults were probably complicit in the sex
abuse crime.
They could not arrest all the adults and leave the children, so all
the children were removed.

It will all come out in court soon enough, but I don't see a problem here.

Good work I say! Texas does the job where Utah is afraid to act
against FLDS because there are too many of them.

BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 12:03:46 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:03:46 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804260646p1027f911i2f8b4b5dc5adf888@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804260646p1027f911i2f8b4b5dc5adf888@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804270503m787646cfvcd7ed89ef84a6289@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/26 Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>:

>  >  Much of the money collected is wasted. It would be better if this
>  >  money were left in the hands of the taxpayers
>
>  ### Taken out of your context, these sentences perfectly encapsulate
>  what I think about taxation.

Of course I don't believe that any amount of taxation for any purpose
is automatically justified. The level and nature of taxation should be
set by the people and by market forces: those countries which tax too
high or too low will be less competitive internationally in the long
run.

>  >  If my house burns down my insurance company will pay to build me a
>  >  replacement. This is despite the fact that I may only have paid a few
>  >  hundred dollars in premiums: the deal was that if it burns down, they
>  >  will pay, and I don't feel guilty about taking the money from all the
>  >  other policyholders whose houses don't burn down.
>
>  ### This was a voluntary deal: Nobody forced the folks at the company
>  to write you an insurance contract. Nobody gets hurt here, in fact,
>  since both parties (you and the company) enter the contract willingly,
>  a presumption of a positive sum game can be made.
>
>  --------------------
>
>
>  Similarly, the deal
>  >  in the country where I live is that if I earn income I will pay a
>  >  proportion of it to the Government, and in return I will receive
>  >  certain services if I need them.
>
>  ### No, this is not the "deal". I never was given the choice to accept
>  or reject the taxman. Neither did you.
>
>  --------------------
>
> >
>  >  You will doubtless point out that I am free not to insure my house but
>  >  that isn't always an option. If I live in an apartment building I will
>  >  be forced to pay my share for insurance and other maintenance costs,
>  >  simply because the majority of the other owners have voted that way.
>
>  ### There is a whole order of magnitude difference between changing an
>  apartment and changing your country. I can tell you that from my own
>  experience. This means that choice in countries is much more limited
>  than in apartments, and states are whole networks of enforcers,
>  illegitimately restricting my choice of laws.

Yes, it isn't so easy to change your country. But there is still a
market of economic and political systems across the world. Countries
which are economically, socially and politically attractive get more
migrants and more investment and tend to become more influential in
the world in the long run. Other countries have to change their system
to compete or else they get left further and further behind. It is
interesting that low taxation is a clear strategy to foster investment
and growth in a number of countries around the world, with some
considerable success (eg. Hong Kong, Singapore), but these countries
have not gone the whole way and eliminated all taxation.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Apr 27 13:02:06 2008
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 09:02:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-DS1C6DEE25F0918350441B68EDF0@phx.gbl>
References: <380-22008462623938865@M2W002.mail2web.com>
	<BLU109-DS1C6DEE25F0918350441B68EDF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <39058.12.77.169.13.1209301326.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

[...]
> And as the definition is, a
> cyborg is a person (or entity) who depends on technology in its everyday
> life. I have glasses, thus I am a cyborg. I wouldn't be able to live without
> technology. I always have my laptop with me, for example. Now, a person who,
> without a pacemaker, would die in an instant, finely satisfies the
> definition of a cybernetic organism. Oh, and if you have organic
> augmentations (wetware add-ons), you still are a cyborg :)

This is how I like to present Transhumanism, if and when such a discussion comes up.
Most folks I know (being a geezer and all!) are walking down that path already, or
their nearest and dearest are. Hard to denigrate something "everybody" is depending
on to live!

For me the sad part is the lack of evolutionary pressure here. Becoming a cyborg
isn't heritable. :( So it's a dead end. It's just us with new fancy tools. :(

Question: do we have any examples of cyborg-like medical interventions that *are*
heritable? Nothing I'm aware of - but the times they are a-changing so perhaps this
too will occur with gene work?

Regards,
MB






From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 13:55:28 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:55:28 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <39058.12.77.169.13.1209301326.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <380-22008462623938865@M2W002.mail2web.com>
	<BLU109-DS1C6DEE25F0918350441B68EDF0@phx.gbl>
	<39058.12.77.169.13.1209301326.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804270655l6756304cyfb14b3f238bd1769@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/27 MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>:

>  For me the sad part is the lack of evolutionary pressure here. Becoming a cyborg
>  isn't heritable. :( So it's a dead end. It's just us with new fancy tools. :(

Evolution doesn't have to proceed only by means of genetics. If
cyborgisation confers advantages, then those populations in which the
cyborgisation meme takes hold will thrive.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 15:11:16 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:11:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804270811n49321db1q91f82d07ec8321a1@mail.gmail.com>

BillK wrote:
Good work I say! Texas does the job where Utah is afraid to act
against FLDS because there are too many of them.
>>>

In 1953 the Arizona law enforcement authorities (aided by the National
Guard) raided a Mormon splinter group practicing polygamy and this is known
as the Short Creek Raid.  But the whole thing backfired when camera
crews filmed police showing up at the town just as the polygamists were
having an outdoor gathering and singing hymns (the community had been tipped
off  about the police coming).  The cops looked like big bullies as
they made arrests and sorted the husbands, wives and children around.
The U.S. public saw the footage and ironically their hearts went out to the
polygamists (there should have been camera crews around during the
horrific persecutions of Mormons during the 1830's and 1840's, lol).  After
this the mainstream SLC LDS Church did not want to get involved in any
way trying to break up these tenuous offshoots (the Deseret News, a Church
owned newspaper, applauded the raid, despite the public outcry) from the era
of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (even though they were/are viewed as
an embarrassment).

John Grigg
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 15:56:59 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:56:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <200804261845.21810.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804260737g5345d567nba704553aecd2c5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804261845.21810.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804270856q605ebb88kb8740c92a614b41d@mail.gmail.com>

Bryan Bishop wrote:
Sorry, raising IQ does not mean raising awareness and it doesn't mean
raising capability, there are many high IQ individuals that are
basically 'worthless' in terms of democracy, that aren't living full
and capable lives, etc.
>>>

I think James Hughes was misquoted on this subject.  Instead of saying "IQ"
the speaker should have said "general intelligence."  As we all know,
intelligence can be broken down into many highly-varied categories.

you continue:
Citizenry and nationalism just don't work out in this day and age, time
to update your ideas. :-) There's more than just living as a citizen -
you can live as a person, a human.
>>>

Please don't automatically connect being a concerned citizen with militant
nationalism.  You can be a concerned and contributing citizen of your nation
and at the same time be a good "citizen of the Earth."

I wrote/you wrote:

> >  After all, as a professor he is a member of America's
> > intellectual/high IQ elite.  Or does he only want a relative few to
> > be in that club?




> So now you're saying that you *don't* want IQ elitism.

>>>

I never did.


> > Sarewitz went on to say the two key challenges facing humanity would
> > not be helped by aggressive intelligence augmentation.  The first
> > challenge regards individuals, groups and societies experiencing
> > conflicting values and world views and trying to deal peacefully with
> > each other.  The second challenge dealt with humanity's ability to
> > predict and manage the future.  He pointed out that extremely bright
> > and educated people/think tanks have guided nations into very stupid
> > policies/wars over the years and done great damage and so why should
> > even brighter technologically augmented folks do better? I thought to
> > myself that perhaps we should instead use biotech to *weaken* our
> > collective intelligence...  His talk seemed to inadvertently point
> > out very bright people as a threat to humanity! LOL


you wrote:

> Nah, I bet he was just trying to say that very bright people that try to
> control humanity are the threat, not that intelligence itself is the
> threat. Power corrupts, etc. That sort of thing.

>>>

No.  He was not talking about "absolute power corrupts absolutely, etc.,."
The focus was on not expecting technologically augmented intellects to do
better than the already gifted intellects (through natural selection) we
already now have in high places to guide us politically.  He was not
stating high intellect itself as a threat, but instead saying we should not
view it as the panacea to our political ills.  My playful comments
were satirizing what he said.


> > The speaker did grudgingly admit that the technologies Transhumanists
> > endorse will be coming into being whether he likes it or not.  And he
> > stated the primary mover for this was military and economic
> > competitiveness between nations.  He saw this as the main reason why
> > reasonable people like him had to swing into action and carefully
> > control and regulate these new technologies.


you wrote:

> You both sound like tech regulators ... you have your 'tech democracy'
> stuff, he wants to regulate it so that you don't enforce those
> tech-democracy requirement stuffs, whatever. Same thing, same sides of
> the spectrum, nothing new.

>>>

Huh?  Please clarify what you wrote here with much clearer language.  Why
would I "enforce" democracy enhancing tech?  I'm not for forcing
intelligence augmentation or other Transhumanist technologies onto people,
especially for the cause of advancing democracy.


> > I did like his concern about inequality in relation to the subject
> > and it was a person in the Q & A session who brought up the classic
> > scenario of rich parents buying their unborn offspring genetic
> > enhancements, causing even greater gaping inequities within society.
> > But Sarewitz to my surprise did mention how in time treatments might
> > become cheaper as they are easier to do.  And so in time, due to the
> > "trickle down effect," middle class parents could afford these
> > treatments to enhance their own children.


you wrote:

> Looks like he's still thinking about scarcity economics, meanwhile
> transhumanists have been talking post-scarcity for decades -- see
> self-replicating tech, like Merkle, Freitas, Drexler, RepRap, fabbing,
> etc. So I don't think this guy is particularly informed. ;-)

>>>

Ahh, but we will still need resources in the form of matter and energy.  And
in time even the resources of our home solar system and beyond could be
devoured unless we are careful stewards.  If a company or individual
develops a wonderful gene tweak for whatever great benefit, they are going
to want some sort of payment (but that might come in the form of barter or
even simply reputation/fame).  It may be quite awhile before we free
ourselves from scarcity economics.  I truly dream of the world you envision.
: )


> > After the lecture he mingled with the crowd over refreshments and
> > then the real venom against Transhumanism came pouring out.  Sarewitz
> > very mockingly referred to the Singularity as a crazy essentially
> > religious obsession Transhumanists had.  And he spoke about how they
> > envisioned god-like computers running things and saving us from
> > ourselves.  Sarewitz ridiculed Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity
> > is Coming" and said the predictions were pie in the sky overly
> > optimistic and basically just plain wrong.  Oh, and the matter of
> > Transhumanist fear of death (especially in middle aged
> > Transhumanists) was also brought up as a reason why the Singularity
> > was predicted to be within the lifespan of many somewhat older
> > Transhumanists. As I listened to all of this I thought to myself,
> > "these people really don't like Transhumanists and want to totally
> > marginalize us!"  And to think I always thought the Evangelicals and
> > not the academics would be our sparring partners. lol


you write:

> Ignore him. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

>>>

LOL  I agree with you there!  But he is a professor of fairly high stature
and such people need to be properly confronted (assertively &
respectfully and not aggressively & rudely) on the gladiatorial arena floor
of memetic conflict.


John Grigg  : )
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From aiguy at comcast.net  Sun Apr 27 16:15:11 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (aiguy at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:15:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804270655l6756304cyfb14b3f238bd1769@mail.gmail.com>
References: <380-22008462623938865@M2W002.mail2web.com><BLU109-DS1C6DEE25F0918350441B68EDF0@phx.gbl><39058.12.77.169.13.1209301326.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<f21c22e30804270655l6756304cyfb14b3f238bd1769@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c8a881$e18868c0$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>


2008/4/27 MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>:

>  For me the sad part is the lack of evolutionary pressure here. 
> Becoming a cyborg  isn't heritable. :( So it's a dead end. It's just 
> us with new fancy tools. :(

If cyber enhancements such as direct man/computer interfaces drives up the
IQ and mental productivity levels of mankind.

Then the evolutionary pressure will be to have the best cyber enhancements.


Nations will compete to develop the best enhancements for they will equate
to a intellectual and economic advantage.

So even if the biological portion of our organism ceases to evolve the cyber
enhancements will evolve quickly.

Subcultures that reject cyber enhancements will be at an increasing
intellectual and economic disadvantage.

And may have to resort to niche cottage industries as the Amish do today.
(Farming and Furniture Making)

As the enhancements shrink in size some utilizing nanotechnology and other
biological mods self directed evolution will become the norm.  

And the biological mods may very well become heritable as we learn to
rewrite genetic code as we are now learning to read it.

And while this scenario will sound frightening and repugnant to many people
now.  The changes will happen gradually and be accepted gradually in the
same way that tattoos and and piercing have become commonplace and almost
mainstream today.

And although we will then be truly transhuman we must fight at every step of
the journey to maintain the best of our humanity.




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 16:18:33 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 09:18:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804260833h1db7b649s868a35210c369182@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804201440q50e22423s6dc9bdd0ca8e7e44@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804201558k23ad2d3eu578d66090027de1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<03d101c8a357$a044e110$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804211354n3218e340n220fdd15f8e924f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<051f01c8a440$aabe7590$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<052901c8a445$fb6ccf50$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<a69380f0804221502q68f3b736o35904750ab0dde8@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804231833o76a6ac36k575113c13bafa93c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a69380f0804260833h1db7b649s868a35210c369182@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804270918n6df374a4sf14072258f8777e@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:
Ahh, but what is the nature of faith?  Absolute 100% belief as a motivating
force for action can work wonders.
>>>

Rick Strongitharm wrote:
Absolute, 100% belief is blinding dogma.  The "wonders" that it works
include suicide bombings, indoctrination of children and infanticide (eg.
Andrea Yates, et al).

Furthermore, placebos are know to work wonders.

I'd rather have an information-backed opinion than faith.  :>)
>>>

I'm saddened that you stereotype "faith" and "belief" in such a way.  Like
many people today, you hear the words "faith" and "belief" and only think of
homicidal religious fanatics.  I see these terms in more of a secular way,
as greatly motivating factors in a person's life when they do not yet see
how things may come together (having some of the facts & building blocks
before them, but not all, "confronting the imposing darkness before the
light at the end of the tunnel") for them to achieve their daunting goal.
But they move forward anyway with great purpose because of the firm
conviction that *somehow* things will work out.  There are people who have
done the very nearly impossible (both good and bad) due to their faith and
belief in themselves, and their cause/goal.

And they ate their mashed potatos!  : )

John Grigg
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sun Apr 27 16:20:27 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 09:20:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Charity vs. Entitlements
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804260635x4db1bb36o54fe8ff6325013ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <089001c8a883$4109e9d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rafal responds to Stathis:

> Stathis wrote:
> 
> > Charity is fickle and degrading; when
> > I'm given something I want it to be
> > because I'm entitled to it.

Exactly!!!   I myself probably just suffered a family
reverse because I had been too generous to a sibling.
The poor resent the rich anyway, and generosity
only makes it worse, at least for all too many.

I congratulate Stathis on seeing through to the way that
poor people really think, despite his own favorable 
position. (As for me, for some reason I am incredibly
grateful to people when they do me a favor because
they have some talent I lack;  I *believe* that I'd really,
really be grateful if some old friend struck it rich and gave
me a million dollars.)

So I'm afraid that it may be *inevitable* that our democracy
will begin voting itself entitlements.  Note that here in the
USA a sudden splurge of government "entitlement" has
just been inflicted on the economy---the so-called stimulus
package---at the same time that gas prices are rising.

So the proles are all going to see that as justified compensation.

Rafal responded

> ### The way I see it, the only, only thing you are entitled
> to is freedom from violence. You don't have any rights to
> anybody's time, money, resources. You don't have the
> right to take anything from others against their will. Even
> if there are 50 million of people like you, you still don't
> have the right to take anything from me. Merely "wanting"
> doesn't entitle you to anything.

Very true.  But completely inapplicable to reality at this
time, it appears.

Lee



From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Sun Apr 27 16:28:51 2008
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:28:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4814A9C3.2070606@comcast.net>



BillK wrote:
> Good work I say! Texas does the job where Utah is afraid to act
> against FLDS because there are too many of them.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   



I always have to chuckle how everyone has this miss perception that FLDS 
(Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) Mormons or 
any other non LDS Mormons, are in some sympathetic way related to LDS 
Mormons.  (Gee, how can anyone make such a mistaken association? ;)

When in fact, there is no loss of hate and intolerance between any of 
the many break away "sects" of Mormonism.  My favorite polygamist break 
away group is not the FLDS, but the TLC LDS (True and Living Church of 
Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days.)  President Harmstrom, the 
leader of this group claims to have had Joseph Smith appear to him in a 
vision, in which the now Angel Joseph Smith taught him that the 
leadership of the LDS church had fallen, and that he was to "restore" 
the one true church of Jesus Christ again to the earth.  (Remember, that 
Joseph Smith claimed to have similar angels and visits from God, who 
also informed him that the Pope and other Christian churches had fallen, 
were the "whore of all the earth", and that he was to restore Christ's 
one true church again to the earth.)

Anyone, that is not a member of THE Mormon church (or the LDS church) is 
very much ostracized and abused in Utah.  For example, a bunch of people 
that have only done polygamy, and not abused children, have been 
prosecuted, primarily by LDS church members that I believe hate them so 
much for going against the LDS church leadership in any way.  That is 
why there are so many of these groups not actually in Utah, but in 
border towns in Colorado, Arizona, and some necessarily, as far away as 
Texas.  I believe any of these groups would have been treated far worse 
in all ways, were they in Utah.

Lately, there are constant pieces in Utah Newspapers and everywhere LDS 
Mormons can proclaim such, trying to clear up this "miss perception" 
that the FLDS members have anything to do with THE LDS church.  I view 
it kind of like, if you take a bunch of crazy people that think they are 
Jesus, and throw them in a room together, they all hate each other.  So 
in an attempt to avoid this, they all move to neighboring rooms, um, I 
mean States, Texas, and the like.

Brent Allsop



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 16:59:35 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:59:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <4814A9C3.2070606@comcast.net>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<4814A9C3.2070606@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804270959p31f2929ct54b0b6706b979b73@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
>
>  I always have to chuckle how everyone has this miss perception that FLDS
>  (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) Mormons or
>  any other non LDS Mormons, are in some sympathetic way related to LDS
>  Mormons.  (Gee, how can anyone make such a mistaken association? ;)
>
>  When in fact, there is no loss of hate and intolerance between any of
>  the many break away "sects" of Mormonism.  My favorite polygamist break
>  away group is not the FLDS, but the TLC LDS (True and Living Church of
>  Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days.)  President Harmstrom, the
>  leader of this group claims to have had Joseph Smith appear to him in a
>  vision, in which the now Angel Joseph Smith taught him that the
>  leadership of the LDS church had fallen, and that he was to "restore"
>  the one true church of Jesus Christ again to the earth.  (Remember, that
>  Joseph Smith claimed to have similar angels and visits from God, who
>  also informed him that the Pope and other Christian churches had fallen,
>  were the "whore of all the earth", and that he was to restore Christ's
>  one true church again to the earth.)
>
>  Anyone, that is not a member of THE Mormon church (or the LDS church) is
>  very much ostracized and abused in Utah.  For example, a bunch of people
>  that have only done polygamy, and not abused children, have been
>  prosecuted, primarily by LDS church members that I believe hate them so
>  much for going against the LDS church leadership in any way.  That is
>  why there are so many of these groups not actually in Utah, but in
>  border towns in Colorado, Arizona, and some necessarily, as far away as
>  Texas.  I believe any of these groups would have been treated far worse
>  in all ways, were they in Utah.
>
>  Lately, there are constant pieces in Utah Newspapers and everywhere LDS
>  Mormons can proclaim such, trying to clear up this "miss perception"
>  that the FLDS members have anything to do with THE LDS church.  I view
>  it kind of like, if you take a bunch of crazy people that think they are
>  Jesus, and throw them in a room together, they all hate each other.  So
>  in an attempt to avoid this, they all move to neighboring rooms, um, I
>  mean States, Texas, and the like.
>


I entirely agree, Brent. When I said 'too many of them' I wasn't
referring to THE LDS church. I meant the FLDS breakaways and others
like them.

Utah was going after them, as you say, but in a much more restrained
fashion. They were processing each individual complaint as they arose,
seeking DNA samples and warrants against individuals. Utah *knew* that
this abuse was widespread and systematic in the FLDS, but they refused
to remove any children from the abuse until a complaint was received.
This enabled these groups to continue with the abuse and move away
when the pressure became too great.

Utah's Attorney General was quoted as saying:
    Shurtleff said he had no plans to conduct a similar mass-scale
raid on the polygamous border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado
City, Ariz.
    "And do what? Arrest thousands of polygamists in Utah? We wouldn't
have 400 kids, we'd have thousands in our foster care and thousands of
their parents in the prison system. It's not practical to do that,"
Shurtleff said. "We were right to focus on abused children."
--------------------

Utah is blatantly saying that their system couldn't cope with the
thousands of abusers and he was unable to rescue the thousands of
abused children


BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 17:28:29 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:28:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <39058.12.77.169.13.1209301326.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <380-22008462623938865@M2W002.mail2web.com>
	<BLU109-DS1C6DEE25F0918350441B68EDF0@phx.gbl>
	<39058.12.77.169.13.1209301326.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <200804271228.29906.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Sunday 27 April 2008, MB wrote:
> Question: do we have any examples of cyborg-like medical
> interventions that *are* heritable? Nothing I'm aware of - but the
> times they are a-changing so perhaps this too will occur with gene
> work?

Genetic modifications that you make, especially to the brain structures 
that induce the resulting brain to make similar such genetic 
alterations to brain structures as well. I want to try this out with 
rats, having them tap into some viral gene therapy on a lab on a chip 
in their head, with a neural interface, and then letting them run wild 
and see what emerges.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr 27 17:52:06 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:52:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804270856q605ebb88kb8740c92a614b41d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804260737g5345d567nba704553aecd2c5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804261845.21810.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804270856q605ebb88kb8740c92a614b41d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804271252.06977.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Sunday 27 April 2008, John Grigg wrote:
> you continue:
> Citizenry and nationalism just don't work out in this day and age,
> time to update your ideas. :-) There's more than just living as a
> citizen - you can live as a person, a human.
>
> Please don't automatically connect being a concerned citizen with
> militant nationalism.  You can be a concerned and contributing
> citizen of your nation and at the same time be a good "citizen of the
> Earth."

How did citizenship get brought up on a speech about transhumanism, 
anyway?

> I wrote/you wrote:
> > >  After all, as a professor he is a member of America's
> > > intellectual/high IQ elite.  Or does he only want a relative few
> > > to be in that club?
> >
> > So now you're saying that you *don't* want IQ elitism.
>
> I never did.

True. But here's what you said: you wanted to remove 50 IQ points from 
him, and then see if he can be a contributing citizen; then you asked 
if he only wants a relative few to *not* have those 50 IQ points 
absent. Basically the 'elitism' is in enforcing some definition of 
a 'contributing citizen' there.

> No.  He was not talking about "absolute power corrupts absolutely,
> etc.,." The focus was on not expecting technologically augmented
> intellects to do better than the already gifted intellects (through
> natural selection) we already now have in high places to guide us
> politically.  He was not stating high intellect itself as a threat,
> but instead saying we should not view it as the panacea to our
> political ills.  My playful comments were satirizing what he said.

High intellects to politically guide nations? I don't get it.

> > > The speaker did grudgingly admit that the technologies
> > > Transhumanists endorse will be coming into being whether he likes
> > > it or not.  And he stated the primary mover for this was military
> > > and economic competitiveness between nations.  He saw this as the
> > > main reason why reasonable people like him had to swing into
> > > action and carefully control and regulate these new technologies.
>
> you wrote:
> > You both sound like tech regulators ... you have your 'tech
> > democracy' stuff, he wants to regulate it so that you don't enforce
> > those tech-democracy requirement stuffs, whatever. Same thing, same
> > sides of the spectrum, nothing new.
>
> Huh?  Please clarify what you wrote here with much clearer language. 
> Why would I "enforce" democracy enhancing tech?  I'm not for forcing
> intelligence augmentation or other Transhumanist technologies onto
> people, especially for the cause of advancing democracy.

Hm, those comments were made from the interpretation of your assertion 
of the relationship between the 'defense of democratic values' and IQ. 
So more clearly, it's not so much about whether or not you want to 
enforce those sorts of policies, but rather that the 'lense of 
perception' here is that of, how did he put it, "military and economic 
competitiveness between nations". The idea of having those knee-jerk 
military and political reactions between nations, the "us vs. them" 
perspective, which I understand that you don't necessarily entertain, 
but the principle plan of using politics to advance technology is what 
I was more commenting on that seemed to make "you both sound like tech 
regulators." Particularly the politics part because you mentioned 
seeing if he could remain an effective citizen with 50 IQ points, so 
that's the citizen-defense-of-values relation here. Anyway.

> Ahh, but we will still need resources in the form of matter and
> energy.  And in time even the resources of our home solar system and
> beyond could be devoured unless we are careful stewards.  If a
> company or individual develops a wonderful gene tweak for whatever
> great benefit, they are going to want some sort of payment (but that
> might come in the form of barter or even simply reputation/fame).  It
> may be quite awhile before we free ourselves from scarcity economics.
>  I truly dream of the world you envision.

Only dream?

> you write:
> > Ignore him. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
>
> LOL  I agree with you there!  But he is a professor of fairly high
> stature and such people need to be properly confronted (assertively &
> respectfully and not aggressively & rudely) on the gladiatorial arena
> floor of memetic conflict.

I don't see how memetic conflict *of others* influences whether or not 
we can move beyond dreaming into implementation of these ideas, from 
within (ourselves).

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From max at maxmore.com  Sun Apr 27 18:03:01 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:03:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Blackford and Egan on >H
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804241511m2f65bb51xe54210872600f9ba@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <380-22008442481936833@M2W027.mail2web.com>
	<29666bf30804241511m2f65bb51xe54210872600f9ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080427180302.COSL301.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>

Just a reminder (and perhaps a fresh note for relative newcomers): 
Although it's certainly true that, years ago, I used the term 
"extropianism", I have avoided doing so now for years. Quite some 
time ago, I even replaced "The Extropian Principles" with "The 
Principles of Extropy", specifically with the intent of moving away 
from isms, -ians, and the like.
(See http://www.extropy.org/principles.htm)

I must say, I haven't noticed especially negative reactions to 
"transhumanism" as a term--certainly much less than to the specific 
ideas and goals it implies. The experience of some others clearly 
differs. How best to resolve the conflict between the usefulness of a 
term for identification with shared values, on the one hand, and 
public repulsion and in-group ism-ish behavior? I don't have a good answer yet.

Max


At 05:11 PM 4/24/2008, P.J. Manney wrote:

>I paused in writing this to have a private chat with Mike LaTorra.  In
>the conversation, it struck me that Natasha's comment about "isms" is
>really apt.  Adding "ism" to the end of "transhuman" brings in a whole
>lot of implications about movements and agendas and coercion from one
>part of society over another -- all those concepts that people by
>nature fear.
>
>And Mike said that I don't want to be an "ist."  I seem to have issues
>with "ists" and "isms".  But so do others, apparently, including
>Natasha.




Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr 27 19:27:28 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:27:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Latest US genetics legislation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.89.1209315602.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <77778.15280.qm@web27009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I noticed this on the BBC website
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7366264.stm

Is this a positive step (reassuring the public that advances in genetic
technology will not hurt them) or a negative one (as the US chamber of
commerce says)? Hopefully this law (assuming it goes into force) will
encourage people to have genetic tests, and in doing so will increase
the market for good,high quality tests and will hopefully encourage the
price to come down. Well, I try to remain optimistic that will happen,
although our discussions on US healthcare economics have painted a
pessimistic note.

Tom


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From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 27 20:05:14 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
Message-ID: <392234.92714.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee said: 

>I would call the uploading view (where what happens to the
>original is philosophically immaterial) to be the "objective" view.
>But I understand your 'externalist', I think: doesn't it simply
>amount to "objective"?

the only reason i didn't use the term objective is because it tends to be loaded with a certain truth-value judgment. I think the term may mislead us here, because we are merely talking about what a person looks like from the outside or from the inside. I don't think we should place either one on a higher pedestal.

>Wait.  What about your best friend?  Can you look at two
>copies of him and say that they are the same person?
>Recall that they act completely the same, and if named
>"Fred", each resembles the other Fred even more closely
>than he resembles the Fred of last week. (So therefore
>if each really is the same person as Fred of last week, it's
>obvious---to me, at any rate---that they are the same
>person as each other. But too many people simply find
>this conclusion unacceptable, despite the logic.)

Sure. And I accept that two different things, to all external criteria, can both be Michael Miller. But I can't have an external view on myself. If I can have an external view on something, then it is no longer "me" in the sense of being one with my subjectivity. This is where the two definitions of self part company: Whether we define self as being the feeling of 'me' from the inside, or the pattern of 'me' from the outside. I think we'd be wrong to disregard either definition, but bear in mind that however we choose to use the word 'self', it is not an object that we are defining, so we cannot come to a right or wrong definition...we are merely articulating how we prefer to use the word.

>> - not for any reason of a soul etc., but because "I" implies
>> a subjective perspectival quality; 

>Only on *one* meaning of "I".  

Yes. But it's one that is just as valid as any other. I think the unique sensation of being *this* person is one that we cannot divorce from the definition of "I". And this sensation is only available from the inside. If I am pointing to something else, then it does not share my own selfness in that way (although to everyone else, both of us may well do). Thus, we can be the same person, but we cannot be the same "I". Because if I say "I see..." I am not talking about the other. Whereas if I talk about qualities of Michael Miller, it will probably include both of us.

>Naturally, I'd just press you to practice the *objective*
>or 'externalist' point of view. It would hardly be the first
>time in your life that your subjectivity has mislead you.
>Why, subjectively, the Earth isn't even moving!

Yes...but, it is also through our subjective apparatus that we reach every conclusion, whether misled or not :)







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From benboc at lineone.net  Sun Apr 27 20:33:12 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:33:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <mailman.80.1209217317.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.80.1209217317.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4814E308.9010201@lineone.net>

Michael Miller wrote:

 > What criteria would be necessary to make uploading
 >  a "proven technology"? What experiments would have
 >  to be conducted in order to sufficiently convince you...

I don't know the answer to that.
I'm not entirely happy with Lee's answer, as it just demonstrates that 
the person or system has my memories.
Whether that means that they are an instance of 'me' or not, i don't 
know either.


 > What I mean is, while I can look at two books which are
 > identical and say "yes, they are the same thing" and this is
 > acceptable, I cannot point to something outside of my own
 > skin and say "that is myself"

So we have a situation where you would claim that a CD containing a 
digitised copy of 'The Tempest' and a silk scroll with a chinese 
translation written on it in ink were both 'the same thing'.

I'm not disagreeing, but i think perhaps we need different terminology. 
In ordinary language, it's obvious that these two are not the 'same 
thing'. We are just talking about the information content, but that's 
not clear from the phrase.

Lee said we need to be careful of saying that something happens in 'an 
instant', and i agree. What i meant was a perceptual instant, defined 
not by any particular interval of time, but by a perception. As soon as 
the two copies experience different things, they become different. (Of 
course, only by that much).

I said:
 > If the upload process had been destructive, then
 > > there would continue to be only one person.
 > > There can be no such thing as 'delayed destructive
 > > uploading'. Either the person is transferred from
 > > one substrate to another, or there is a
 > > copy made, and now there are two. The instant
 > > that their experiences differ, you have two distinct
 > > people,

Lee replied:
 > Not so. Everything about them is COMPLETELY
 > IDENTICAL.  From the point of view of physics,
 > just how can you say that there are now *two*
 > people?  As soon as a copy of a book is made,
 > are there now two books?  In the *important*
 > sense, there is just one book (the information is
 > what is important, not the substrate!).

Everything about them is completely identical for a tiny period of time, 
until their experiences differ. If an identical copy of a book is made, 
and then someone crosses a few words out and replaces them with new 
words in one copy, they are no longer identical. Now there ARE two 
books. My contention is that this would take such a short period of time 
after the copying process that it's impractical to talk about pointing 
guns at people etc. The only satisfactory 'one of you dies' scenario 
would be where the killing happened so quickly after the copying that 
the victim would have no chance to be aware of anything. Thus it would 
be equivalent to destructive uploading.

ben zaiboc


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 27 20:55:22 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:55:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] room full of jesuses RE:  flds raid,
	was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <4814A9C3.2070606@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200804272123.m3RLNR3Y020725@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> Brent Allsop

> ...if you take a bunch of crazy 
> people that think they are Jesus, and throw them in a room 
> together, they all hate each other... Brent Allsop

Brent the mental image that occurs to me as I read your post is going down
below Tenth Street in San Jose, rounding up a group of Jesuses (or is it
Jesi?)  It would probably take half an hour to find a couple dozen.  But
chances are they would all be perfectly sane in the belief that he is Jesus,
and all the would get along just fine.

spike











From femmechakra at yahoo.ca  Mon Apr 28 03:38:47 2008
From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:38:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
Message-ID: <538412.97280.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:

>"It is very striking how often it is the religious in particular who 
>mock and assail others because their ideas are "crazy" and 
>"religious." 

I've taken notice lately in my surroundings that many people have some big misconceptions.

>Presumably it isn't *just* that such ideas are "religious" but that they >are also "crazy," 

I'd like you to describe to me what entails crazy?  

>unlike their own entirely sane religious ideas (sticks turned into >snakes, seas parted at command, rotation of the earth halted for a day, >virgin births, magical revival from the dead, wine turned into water, >bread turned into god, golden plates revealed by angels, gods with >elephant's heads, all that completely sensible stuff)."

Copy of this and that..cyborgs...no longer being human...the singularity, "le moment que la technology se reveille"...funny..I think within each culture and background you have distinct features that look for positivity...maybe looking at it from a friendly point of view would be better:)
I get your point Damien, obviously scientifically at that time they seem like dumb words of proverbs and/or scientifically impossible or at very least they are moments that describe some kind of meaning to the blind eye; for others, it's very clear.  Sometimes the words have deeper meaning and emphasise. For me, it's a form of math:)  
How do you think concepts like cryonics where introduced within humanity?

Just some thoughts and questions,
Anna:)
  



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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Apr 28 05:02:01 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:02:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <538412.97280.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <538412.97280.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080427235225.02533b10@satx.rr.com>

At 08:38 PM 4/27/2008 -0700, Anna wrote:

> >"It is very striking how often it is the religious in particular who
> >mock and assail others because their ideas are "crazy" and
> >"religious." ...Presumably it isn't *just* that such ideas are 
> "religious" but that they are also "crazy,"
>
>I'd like you to describe to me what entails crazy?

Why are you asking *me*? I'm not one of the religious who (for 
example) mock the technological singularity because  it is allegedly 
a "Rapture for geeks", or who claim that a desire to prevent aging 
and death is just a laughable form of religion (like Scientology or 
the Raelian UFO cult)--rather than what it is, a practical research 
program based on our swiftly growing understanding of biology and information.

Damien Broderick




From femmechakra at yahoo.ca  Mon Apr 28 05:21:20 2008
From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080427235225.02533b10@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <146890.75999.qm@web30406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/28/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> Why are you asking *me*? 

Well, are you Transhuman? ist? ism? Extropy? ist? ism?

>I'm not one of the religious who (for example) mock the technological >singularity 

I don't mock singularity..i'm just not clear of it's description. 

>because  it isallegedly a "Rapture for geeks", or who claim that a desire >to prevent aging and death is just a laughable form of religion 

No..but can it get anymore complicated:) Didn't anybody try to discover simple terms:)

(like
> Scientology or the Raelian UFO cult)--rather than what it is, a practical
> research program based on our swiftly growing understanding of
> biology and information.

Scientology within history is such a miniscule behavior that it seems irrelevant compared to past culture behavior. 

Anna:)


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From sparkle_robot at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 06:17:00 2008
From: sparkle_robot at yahoo.com (Anne Corwin)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:17:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080427235225.02533b10@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <697654.15201.qm@web56510.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 07:52:50 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:22:50 +0930
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <4814E308.9010201@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.80.1209217317.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4814E308.9010201@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804280052i3d116b20nc4ed811ad3a46be9@mail.gmail.com>

> Lee replied:
>  > Not so. Everything about them is COMPLETELY
>  > IDENTICAL.  From the point of view of physics,
>  > just how can you say that there are now *two*
>  > people?  As soon as a copy of a book is made,
>  > are there now two books?  In the *important*
>  > sense, there is just one book (the information is
>  > what is important, not the substrate!).

What if no one reads the book, ie: it stays on the shelf? Saying the
information is important begs the question, why do you need runtime?

(I don't know the answer to this)

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 10:08:19 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:08:19 +1000
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804270811n49321db1q91f82d07ec8321a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804270811n49321db1q91f82d07ec8321a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804280308md6c5a8cja9699dcc0ca32795@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/28 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:

> In 1953 the Arizona law enforcement authorities (aided by the National
> Guard) raided a Mormon splinter group practicing polygamy...

Although polygamy is still illegal in many jurisdictions today, there
is no way for the law to prevent people living together with multiple
partners without getting married. It is interesting that in general
people don't choose this lifestyle unless they are part of some
religious group that promotes it: they might have a series of
monogamous relationships, they might have secret relationships on the
side, but openly polygamous, polyandrous and whatever the term is for
relationships where multiple men and women live together are quite
rare.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 11:06:36 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:06:36 +1000
Subject: [ExI] room full of jesuses RE: flds raid,
	was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <200804272123.m3RLNR3Y020725@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <4814A9C3.2070606@comcast.net>
	<200804272123.m3RLNR3Y020725@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804280406q53d076c5xfc8f9e562fcc9ee6@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/28 spike <spike66 at att.net>:

>  > ...if you take a bunch of crazy
>  > people that think they are Jesus, and throw them in a room
>  > together, they all hate each other... Brent Allsop
>
>  Brent the mental image that occurs to me as I read your post is going down
>  below Tenth Street in San Jose, rounding up a group of Jesuses (or is it
>  Jesi?)  It would probably take half an hour to find a couple dozen.  But
>  chances are they would all be perfectly sane in the belief that he is Jesus,
>  and all the would get along just fine.

I once worked on a ward where two Jesuses were inpatients at the same
time. We were all worried that there would be a fight, but there
wasn't. They walked around smiling and taking turns blessing everyone.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From amara at amara.com  Mon Apr 28 10:46:53 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 04:46:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  flds raid, was general repudiation...
Message-ID: <p06230901c43b59724771@[192.168.0.66]>

Stathis Papaioannou stathisp at gmail.com :
>but openly polygamous, polyandrous and whatever the term

The term is polyamory

>is for relationships where multiple men and women live together
>are quite rare.

'Quite rare'?  Since when?

There are even Usenet groups devoted to such lifestyles which would
demonstrate that the practices have a devoted set of practitioners and
for some decades. Try googling it. (Or spending some time in the S.F.
Bay area.)

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 11:43:42 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:43:42 +1000
Subject: [ExI] "general repudiation of Transhumanism"
In-Reply-To: <538412.97280.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <538412.97280.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804280443q215f2cdcx1f39dcf0e2998c62@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/28 Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca>:

>  I'd like you to describe to me what entails crazy?

Well, the definition of a delusion in psychiatric diagnosis is that it
is a fixed, false belief not in keeping with the believer's cultural
background. The last part is specifically added to avoid having to
classify religious people as delusional. There is also an assumption
that the belief is due to a pathological process, and not mere
eccentricity or foolishness. Occasionally there aren't associated
symptoms which mark a belief as due to a pathological process and we
are left with a trial of antipsychotic medication to make the
diagnosis. This test has very high specificity (almost certainly, if
the belief goes away with antipsychotic medication it was a delusion)
but only moderate sensitivity (only 60 to 80% of delusions will
resolve with treatment).




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 12:16:31 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:16:31 +1000
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <p06230901c43b59724771@192.168.0.66>
References: <p06230901c43b59724771@192.168.0.66>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804280516q405e5acbn9e8ff9e1e95e0479@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/28 Amara Graps <amara at amara.com>:
> Stathis Papaioannou stathisp at gmail.com :
>  >but openly polygamous, polyandrous and whatever the term
>
>  The term is polyamory
>
>  >is for relationships where multiple men and women live together
>  >are quite rare.
>
>  'Quite rare'?  Since when?
>
>  There are even Usenet groups devoted to such lifestyles which would
>  demonstrate that the practices have a devoted set of practitioners and
>  for some decades. Try googling it. (Or spending some time in the S.F.
>  Bay area.)

Yes, I see. Always google before you declare something not in your
experience to be rare! Still, it is much rarer in cultures where it is
allowed because it isn't explicitly banned or taboo than in cultures
where it is endorsed by the predominant religion.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Mon Apr 28 13:26:08 2008
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:26:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] room full of jesuses RE: flds raid,
	was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804280406q53d076c5xfc8f9e562fcc9ee6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4814A9C3.2070606@comcast.net>	<200804272123.m3RLNR3Y020725@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<f21c22e30804280406q53d076c5xfc8f9e562fcc9ee6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4815D070.8030106@comcast.net>


Oh, good.  There is hope after all.....   sort of.

Brent

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> 2008/4/28 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
>   
>>  > ...if you take a bunch of crazy
>>  > people that think they are Jesus, and throw them in a room
>>  > together, they all hate each other... Brent Allsop
>>
>>  Brent the mental image that occurs to me as I read your post is going down
>>  below Tenth Street in San Jose, rounding up a group of Jesuses (or is it
>>  Jesi?)  It would probably take half an hour to find a couple dozen.  But
>>  chances are they would all be perfectly sane in the belief that he is Jesus,
>>  and all the would get along just fine.
>>     
>
> I once worked on a ward where two Jesuses were inpatients at the same
> time. We were all worried that there would be a fight, but there
> wasn't. They walked around smiling and taking turns blessing everyone.
>
>
>
>
>   

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From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Apr 28 15:28:20 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:28:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Earth Is Round (p < .05)
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804280828p68cae297qb57e569b6aa45b80@mail.gmail.com>

Today I came across this paper which, while not new, serves to
illuminate a particularly deep, widespread and **ongoing** weakness in
the practice of rationality by those whom we might expect to know
better, especially in psychology and the social sciences.

[Copying Robin and Eliezer since I'd love to see this expanded upon in
their Overcoming Bias blog.]

Abstract:
"After 4 decades of severe criticism, the ritual of null hypothesis
significance testing?mechanical dichotomous decisions around a sacred
.05 criterion?still persists. This article reviews the problems with
this practice, including its near-universal misinterpretation of p as
the probability that H_0 is false, the misinterpretation that its
complement is the probability of successful replication, and the
mistaken assumption that if one rejects H_0 one thereby affirms the
theory that led to the test. Exploratory data analysis and the use of
graphic methods, a steady improvement in and a movement toward
standardization in measurement, an emphasis on estimating effect sizes
using confidence intervals, and the informed use of available
statistical methods is suggested. For generalization, psychologists
must finally rely, as has been done in all the older sciences, on
replication."

<http://web.math.umt.edu/wilson/Math444/Handouts/Cohen94_earth%20is%20round.pdf>

- Jef


From moulton at moulton.com  Mon Apr 28 17:39:56 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:39:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <p06230901c43b59724771@[192.168.0.66]>
References: <p06230901c43b59724771@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <1209404396.15374.2660.camel@hayek>


On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 04:46 -0600, Amara Graps wrote:
> Stathis Papaioannou stathisp at gmail.com :
> >but openly polygamous, polyandrous and whatever the term
> 
> The term is polyamory
> 
> >is for relationships where multiple men and women live together
> >are quite rare.

A quick and fairly good introduction is on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

> 'Quite rare'?  Since when?
> 
> There are even Usenet groups devoted to such lifestyles which would
> demonstrate that the practices have a devoted set of practitioners and
> for some decades. Try googling it. (Or spending some time in the S.F.
> Bay area.)

Correct.  There are various Potluck dinners and discussion groups.  Also
there have been poly relationships in the broader Extropian and
transhumanist community.  In addition for several years there has beem a
Burning Man theme camp named Poly Paradise.  You do not necessary need
to be in a poly relationship to camp there however you must at least
have an understanding of and be accepting of polyamory.  For anyone
planning to be at this year's Burning Man I plan to be camping with Poly
Paradise so if you are also at Burning Man stop by and say hello.

And while I am sure that the following points are obvious to everyone I
will mention them just in case:
-Polyamory does not require that some, any or all share living quarters.
They may or they may not.
-There are no necessary sexual preference or gender roles templates in
Polyamory.

Fred




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Apr 28 19:12:58 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:12:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] polyamory
In-Reply-To: <1209404396.15374.2660.camel@hayek>
References: <p06230901c43b59724771@[192.168.0.66]>
	<1209404396.15374.2660.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080428140642.02425fc0@satx.rr.com>

At 10:39 AM 4/28/2008 -0700, Fred wrote:

>-There are no necessary sexual preference or gender roles templates in
>Polyamory.

But presumably there are *permissible* sexual preference or gender 
roles templates? Or are Olde Fashioned mono-gender-role people (het 
or gay, or whatever) subject to eye rolling or eased out as no-fun 
bigots? (This is a serious question; I've never attended any formal 
polyamorous gatherings, just a merry party or three.)

Damien Broderick





From sparkle_robot at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 19:42:41 2008
From: sparkle_robot at yahoo.com (Anne Corwin)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:42:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] polyamory
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080428140642.02425fc0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <61960.64325.qm@web56506.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Apr 28 20:58:07 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:58:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <999264.42224.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <999264.42224.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804281358y7ace6d72r9dc3a4acb85d87a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Michael Miller <ain_ani at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 1. What criteria would be necessary to make uploading a "proven technology"?
> What experiments would have to be conducted in order to sufficiently
> convince you that the upload was in fact a direct continuation, rather than
> just a feeble simulation?

When your neighbours and relatives have been teleported from point X
to point Y a number of times through destructive scanning, and/or
emulated for a while on some other support than their old bodies,
without your being able to note ? la Turing any practical difference,
*and* a few people start considering you a lunatic for your
metaphysical doubts on whether such procedures actually imply a death
and the re-birth of a different individual, *and* you start being
tired of your physical decay or of standing in a line in an airport,
THEN you are likely to be sufficiently soon convinced that such
procedures are in fact a direct continuation of your personality and
self.

Stefano Vaj


From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Tue Apr 29 00:58:57 2008
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:58:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Whole-organ cryopreservation successful.
In-Reply-To: <25cb01c889d6$8663e740$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <4477.22109.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<25cb01c889d6$8663e740$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>


Not to over-simplify, obviously, but this is great news.

I believe the key word here is "All" rather than "rat"

~]3

---

Journal of Thoracic and Cardiovascular Surgery

Successful restoration of function of frozen and thawed isolated rat  
hearts
http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/content/vol135/issue3/

" After normothermic perfusion, cold cardioplegia was induced followed  
by perfusion with a cryoprotecting agent. Hearts were than frozen to ? 
8?C (45 ? 8 minutes), thawed, and reperfused (60 minutes).

Results: All frozen and thawed hearts regained normal electric  
activity. "
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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Apr 29 00:49:38 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:49:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] general repudiation of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <380-22008422904938184@M2W023.mail2web.com>

In our own ways, each of us provide observations and insights about H+. 
But let me remind you -- being visionary about the far future ought not to
be negated because there are immediate, urgent issues human beings face
today.

Developing a balanced approach in considering how H+ could contribute to
issues of today and allowing enough creative time to invest in the future
is a matter of balance.  

There are numerous organizations aptly situated in today's issues.  What
makes H+ different is that it is concerned with both today and the future. 
While the future  has gotten most of the attention for some time and we
need to invest attention toward the here and now -- that future has been
the fuel/energy of H+.

Natasha


--------------------------------------------------------------------
myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft? Windows? and Linux web and application
hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 29 02:57:12 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0804280052i3d116b20nc4ed811ad3a46be9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Lee replied:
> >  > Not so. Everything about them is COMPLETELY
> >  > IDENTICAL.  From the point of view of physics,
> >  > just how can you say that there are now *two*
> >  > people?  As soon as a copy of a book is made,
> >  > are there now two books?  In the *important*
> >  > sense, there is just one book (the information is
> >  > what is important, not the substrate!).
> 
> What if no one reads the book, ie: it stays on the shelf? Saying the
> information is important begs the question, why do you need runtime?
> 
> (I don't know the answer to this)

Because you were evolved to minimax runtime and copies. Even a mayfly whose
adult form lives for only a day will try to evade a hungry dragonfly. And yes
information is important but it is not the whole story as you yourself have
keenly observed. In addition to information and a substrate one also needs,
amongst other things, a CODEC. The DNA of an organism isn't alive in any sense
at all, yet it contains most of the organism's information. In order to
participate in the process called life, it needs transcription factors,
polymerases, ribosomes, and lots of other stuff in addition to its information
content.  

As Ben alluded to in his post, "The Tempest" in Chinese is not signal but noise
to someone who doesn't understand Chinese, despite having the same information
content as the English version. He simply has the wrong CODEC. Now if as Lee
suggested, books were intelligent subjective agents, the Chinese and English
instances of the pattern known as "The Origin of Species" would probably not
understand each other, let alone claim to be the same entity. 

I disagree with Lee about the importance of substrate to identity. In many
cases, the substrate is very important. The "Lord of the Rings" on film could
never be *identical* to the books no matter how well it was made. McLuhan said,
"The medium is the message" and when it comes to life, identity, and
consciousness, I would agree.


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From amara at amara.com  Tue Apr 29 08:54:04 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:54:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  polyamory
Message-ID: <p06230906c43c9267b200@[192.168.0.66]>


Damien:
>But presumably there are *permissible* sexual preference or gender
>roles templates?

The only template that I'm aware about, is a strong effort at
communication and honesty. That's also its appeal.

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 29 10:03:23 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:03:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Car 'black box' event recorders step up a gear
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804290303t439cc276v7c65a9565d9eb55f@mail.gmail.com>

We've all heard about the black box recorders fitted in modern cars
that record the engine management data in the minutes before a crash.
They've already been introduced in court as evidence in fatal
accidents.

Well, there is a new kid on the block that is mostly appearing in
company cars at present.
The envisionCAM video camera, GPS and G-force Event Data Recorder.
<http://www.gizmag.com/envisioncam-video-camera-gps-and-g-force-event-data-recorder/9238/>

Quote:
The envisionCAM packs two ultra-wide angle cameras for a coverage of
almost 360 degrees inside AND outside the car - and they switch to
night vision when required. It records GPS and accelerometer g-force
data as well as high resolution video - and automatically transmits
data wirelessly when the car gets within range. The management
software is amazing - it'll pop up a flag when a fleet driver has
exceeded a certain speed or g-force rating, then show you zoomable
video around the event and Google Earth satellite photos of the
location. Any swearing or fist-shaking is reproduced in high-res
clarity. So not only will it act as an excellent witness for
accidents, it's a great way of deterring people from driving company
cars like they stole them.
-------------

The makers suggest that fitting to teens cars might also be a good
behavioural control.  :)


BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 29 12:07:59 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:07:59 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
In-Reply-To: <676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <710b78fc0804280052i3d116b20nc4ed811ad3a46be9@mail.gmail.com>
	<676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804290507v1a65e322w7355566553336b2d@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/29 The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>:

>  I disagree with Lee about the importance of substrate to identity. In many
>  cases, the substrate is very important. The "Lord of the Rings" on film could
>  never be *identical* to the books no matter how well it was made. McLuhan said,
>  "The medium is the message" and when it comes to life, identity, and
>  consciousness, I would agree.

A film is not identical to a book because they're different types of
things entirely. When we say the substrate doesn't matter, which is
perhaps the central tenet of functionalism, we mean that a
functionally equivalent analogue would have the same experiences as
the original. For example, if your brain tissue were replaced with
functionally equivalent computer chips, you would not notice any
difference. "Functionally equivalent" means that the chip would
produce the same outputs as the brain tissue would have if it had been
given the same inputs. This is perhaps not immediately obvious"
peoples' immediate objection is that the cyborgised brain might *feel*
different to the original brain, even if it behaved the same. However,
there is a famous argument in support of functionalism
(http://consc.net/papers/qualia.html) which shows that the cyborgised
brain that behaved the same *would* also feel the same. I have not
come across any reasonable attempt at rebuttal of this paper.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From amara at kurzweilai.net  Tue Apr 29 11:54:50 2008
From: amara at kurzweilai.net (Amara D. Angelica)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:54:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Call for presentations at International Space Development
	Conference 2008
In-Reply-To: <676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <710b78fc0804280052i3d116b20nc4ed811ad3a46be9@mail.gmail.com>
	<676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <022a01c8a9ef$d4cc5d20$6401a8c0@PC>

I'm chairing a session on May 29 at the National Space Society's
International Space Development Conference 2008 ( <http://www.isdc2008.org/>
http://www.isdc2008.org/) in Washington DC on using the resources of the
solar system to benefit humanity over the next few hundred years or more
(such as backing up civilization in space settlements or by storage of data
and DNA on the Moon). The NSS is particularly interested in innovative
transhumanist ideas, such as ways humans can be augmented to survive and
better function in space or uploading into a space-compatible intelligent
substrate. Participants in the session so far are Robin Hanson and Jerry
Glenn. I welcome all suggestions. 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 29 15:53:53 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:53:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Call for presentations at International Space Development
	Conference 2008
In-Reply-To: <022a01c8a9ef$d4cc5d20$6401a8c0@PC>
References: <710b78fc0804280052i3d116b20nc4ed811ad3a46be9@mail.gmail.com>
	<676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<022a01c8a9ef$d4cc5d20$6401a8c0@PC>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804290853p468be556h4309e62ecad95023@mail.gmail.com>

http://dollar-a-gallon.blogspot.com/

On 4/29/08, Amara D. Angelica <amara at kurzweilai.net> wrote:
>
>
> I'm chairing a session on May 29 at the National Space Society's
> International Space Development Conference 2008 (http://www.isdc2008.org/)
> in Washington DC on using the resources of the solar system to benefit
> humanity over the next few hundred years or more (such as backing up
> civilization in space settlements or by storage of data and DNA on the
> Moon). The NSS is particularly interested in innovative transhumanist ideas,
> such as ways humans can be augmented to survive and better function in space
> or uploading into a space-compatible intelligent substrate. Participants in
> the session so far are Robin Hanson and Jerry Glenn. I welcome all
> suggestions.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 29 19:14:12 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:14:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ASU Conference on Transhumanism,
	"General Repudiation of Transhumanism: Part II"
Message-ID: <2d6187670804291214wdf1f612x6739e9aa51a2363f@mail.gmail.com>

I attended a Templeton sponsored workshop on Transhumanism at ASU this past
Friday and had a fascinating time.  The speakers were generally very good,
though ironically some of them admitted from the start to not knowing very
much about the subject (and it at times really showed).  I was offended when
at the very start of the conference, Transhumanism was called a "shallow
ideology" that did not warrant even being called a philosophy yet.  And yet
it supposedly needed to be addressed because as Fukyama stated, "it is the
world's most dangerous idea."

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/about.html

The conference was set up to be for basically only academics and so I was
touched to be invited.  But the closed nature of the event (I had to "sniff
it out" to even pursue going) bothered me.  I feel it should have been
advertised (it is not even mentioned on their website!) and the general
public allowed to attend.  But it was believed that keeping things closed
would keep out many possibly noisy Transhumanists. lol  Several of the
speaking academics were very critical of Transhumanism and I was very
troubled that there were no prominent Transhumanists there such as Max More,
Natasha Vita-More, Nick Bostrom, Anders Sandberg, James Hughes, etc., to
counterbalance them.  It was definitely needed at times!  But I was told
several Transhumanist academics had been invited, but for one reason or
another did not accept.  I was very saddened to learn this.

I reached the end of my rope when Andrew Pickering, of the University of
Exeter, who admitted from the start to having known nothing about
Transhumanism before he was asked to give a talk at the workshop, gave his
opinion that Transhumanists, with their vision of humanity uploaded into
super computers, had a total lack of imagination as to how the future might
be!  He went on about Transhumanists wanting to "freeze their form for the
ideal of Transhumanist perfection."  I shook my head at this because of
course Transhumanists want the freedom to take on whatever configuration
they desire and not to be "locked in" to just one form.  This stereotyping
of *all* Transhumanists wanting the same scenario/goals and his general
ignorance on the subject really disturbed me.

Andrew Pickering:
http://www.huss.ex.ac.uk/sociology/staff/pickering/

But the tipping point for me was when Professor Sarewitz (mentioned in my
last post), of ASU, chimed in and said Transhumanists "suffered from a
desiccated imagination."  I finally stood up for us and said that I had seen
Transhumanists accused of many things, but lack of imagination was not one
of them! LOL  I stated that Transhumanists were not all of one mind and that
uploading was just one option that some of us we embraced.  And that others
wanted to simply augment the bodies we currently have.  At that I was told
it was just another example of Transhumanist lack of imagination! ha

Dan Sarewitz:
http://cspo.org/about/people/sarewitz.htm

Things felt Monty Pythonesque when a professor started waxing poetic about
how great it would be to be genetically modified so you could have wings and
fly.  It was decided by the group (very seriously I might add) that this was
indeed a very great idea and better than what Transhumanists could dream
up.  The unintentional comedy potential of academics in a group is really
something...

Later, the final speaker, Ted Peters, read a quote from Ray Kurzweil on
humanity transforming the universe, and then looked my way and with a smile
on his face and acknowledged how you could never justly accuse
Transhumanists of a lack of imagination!

Don Ihde, of Stony Brook University, started off the lectures by discussing
the four "idols" of futurism.  Paradise, techno-fantasy (he saw
Transhumanists falling for this one, especially), prediction and cyborgs
were the deadly failings.  He referred a great deal to the failed
predictions of the past.  But the man lost me when he said Transhumanism was
man versus nature (in some ways true), while the Japanese cultural approach
to technology was different by being highly integrative.  I do admire Japan
for their pro-tech pro-robotics endeavors, but I don't see how they should
be viewed as the enlightened alternative to Transhumanism.

Don Ihde:
http://www.sunysb.edu/philosophy/faculty/dihde/

Jean-Pierre Dupuy, a Frenchman of both Stanford and ?cole Polytechnique, was
a very charming and extremely energetic fellow who referred again and again
to Hannah Arendt's 1958 book, "The Human Condition."  Dupuy said she foresaw
even then what is happening now with technology and society.  Regarding Nick
Bostrom (described as a "very bright guy") and other prominent Transhumanist
scholars, he was "they are not stupid, they know their stuff."

Dupuy went on to say some modern scientists are seized by the spirit of the
Sorcerer's Apprentice myth.  The goal is not control but actually having
their creation get *out* of control.  I think he misunderstood the classic
Disney cartoon because Mickey did not want the spell on the broom to get out
of hand! lol

A sweet moment in his presentation was when he gave very adoring background
information about a professor he was about to reference and then he brought
up a picture of the lovely female academic who just so happened to be his
wife! lol  Dupuy was quite the charmer and was almost a living stereotype of
the classic bright, romantic and energetic French intellectual type.

He claimed that "love would become incomprehensible in a Transhumanist
world" and to support that view he shared the Greek myth of Alcimena.  Zeus
took the form of her husband (who was off fighting in a war) and then had
sex with her, getting the woman pregnant.  This resulted in baby Hercules.
The story was brought up to take into consideration the Transhumanist/SF
idea of making a copy of a former lover who had died.  But as a female
professor said to a girlfriend, "how could a woman not know it was another
man, despite appearances?" lol  I think female intuition is not to be
underestimated.

The French professor commented that Nick Bostrom had written what he
considered a superb paper about how Transhumanism should be seen as the
height of humanism.  But at the same time he said the big irony was that
Transhumanism would ultimately eliminate humans as they now exist.

Jean-Pierre Dupuy
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/fren-ital/faculty/dupuy.html
Katherine Hayles, of UCLA, spoke about "wrestling with Transhumanism."
People laughed (so did I) when she confessed, "Transhumanism to me is like
being very obsessed with a former lover and not being able to fully let go!"
lol

She said a strongpoint of Transhumanism is that it takes "techno-genesis"
extremely seriously, while many other future oriented groups/movements do
not.  But Hayles felt a comparative weakness is the emphasis on the
individual, which is sometimes divorced from the larger picture/society.
And going along with that is a naivet? regarding the idea that Transhumanist
technology will be good for everyone.  I see her points, but I think if she
had been reading Transhumanist email lists over the last year or two she
would not have claimed we had these weaknesses to the extent she thinks we
do.

I was very impressed that she felt reading science fiction was an excellent
way to explore various possible future scenarios.  Hayles went into great
detail about the superb Hugo-winning "Beggars in Spain" series by Nancy
Kress, that focused on genetic engineering and the social
conflict/cooperation it may engender.

Katherine Hayles took Transhumanism seriously, despite many criticisms and
she very much impressed me.  But I was distressed by her closing statement
that Transhumanist philosophy (not ideology!, lol) and logic were just not
at present sufficient to deal with the extremely complex and very hard to
anticipate consequences of convergence technology on society.

Katherine Hayles:
http://www.english.ucla.edu/faculty/hayles/

Ted Peters, of Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary, felt that no amount of
technological progress could truly lift humanity out of its dark and
self-destructive nature.  He discussed nano, bio, info, cogno convergence,
but also added artificial intelligence (isn't this "info?") , capitalism
(need money!) and intelligence amplification (isn't this "cogno?").

Peters brought up William Jennings Bryan, who he said defended evolution
largely out of the fear that if the public embraced it, that it would
corrupt them by greatly cheapening the value of human life due to its view
of life forms competing fiercely for survival.  Bryan had witnessed some of
the crimes against humanity (mass murder of the Hottentots) the pre-WWI
Social Darwinist Germans committed against their colonial underlings in
Africa and he had been appalled.  Peters felt we must be careful or
Transhumanism could go down a similar twisted path among at least some of
its future adherents.

This speaker was the only one who really examined Transhumanism from a
religious perspective.  He explained that this had been requested from the
conference organizers.  I suspect it may be a requirement from the Templeton
Foundation (an avowedly religious foundation, set up to explore connections
between science and religion) to have at least one speaker at a largely
secular conference focus on the religious aspect.

I found it interesting when he brought up the differences between
immortality in Transhumanist thinking and how it is envisioned in mainstream
Christianity.  The speaker compared the Transhumanist upload immortality
scenario to the concept of Platonic resurrection.

Engendering much discussion was the subject of evil/sin existing in a
Transhumanist Post-Singularity society and how even as we ascended to
godlike status we would be bringing the dark side of our natures with us, in
essence corrupting our technological Eden.

Ted Peters:
http://www.counterbalance.net/bio/ted-body.html

Around the conclusion of the conference a grad student brought up Nietzsche
and "the will to power," in regards to Transhumanism.  She wanted to wanted
to know what kind of future world Transhumanists really wanted to live in
and what drove them on/made them tick.  There was a silence and you could
have heard a pin drop after she finished speaking.  Finally, people started
responding but not to my satisfaction.  I could tell the woman who made the
comment was not content with the replies she had been given.  And the heads
of various professors were turning and looking my way to see if I would give
an answer...

I said Nietzsche was a source of inspiration for Transhumanists but he had
been rehabilitated by scholars over the past several decades and was no
longer falsely seen as an evil poster boy for Hitler.  And so it would be
wrong to make the horrible assumption that Transhumanists were on their way
to becoming futuristic Nazi's.

Regarding what kind of future Transhumanists wanted to live in, I told her
many of us envisioned a universe where various intelligent beings of
different levels of power and ability, unaugmented humans, greatly enhanced
humans still in a humanoid body, and nearly god-like uploads would co-exist
in harmony in (I admitted) a near-utopian society, at least compared to the
civilization we have now.  I said that what drove us was the desire to reach
that place.

All eyes were on me as I said these things and there was a palpable feeling
of focused attention and energy there.  When I finished speaking people
seemed to be mildly impressed and the professor in charge of the conference
gave me a kind smile of affirmation.  I felt really good at doing my best
(in the very limited time I had to speak) to defend Transhumanism.

As Ted Peters did his Q & A session, Dan Sarewitz rounded out things by
saying Transhumanism will not be able to overcome sin/the human dark side.
He also stated that to be realistic we need a "muddle through" mentality and
the other people there approved of this idea.  Finally, he asked why
academics at any level even buy into the Transhumanist future technology
exponential growth scenario.

Dupuy added that he felt Transhumanism must not be dismissed, but instead
confronted.  And that at times Transhumanists behave like a sect/cult.  Once
again (he loved to bring this up), he said how shocking it was that William
Bainbridge is the head of a 1.5 billion dollar research grant allocating
department within the U.S. government.

Growing up Mormon I remember how Evangelical bookstores would make a great
deal of money selling "exposes~" on the LDS Church.  Books, audiotapes,
films and the guest speakers pushing them became extremely popular.  I
suspect up to a point a similar thing could be happening in academia, but
the focus is Tranhumanism.  It is the new, exciting and best of all
frightening idea/movement/ideology/philosophy that can attract the grant
money and resources to build up one's name and organization/department.
Many Mormon Transhumanist Association members could give their own insights
into this parallel.

I believe if these academics are representative of what is going on
worldwide, that there is a strong effort going on to at first marginalize
and then later quite possibly supplant us as various sectors of society garb
themselves with the mantle of Transhumanism (as it gets more popular) and
relegate us to the fringes.  But for now using us as a straw man/scary Bogey
man seems to be the order of the day.

I did learn a great deal from the conference, generally had a wonderful time
(including the difficult moments), and took copious notes.  But the
antagonism and lack of respect for Transhumanism, coupled with no prominent
Transhumanist academics present to try to off-set unfair criticisms, really
concerned me.

John Grigg
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Tue Apr 29 21:11:18 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:11:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ASU Conference on Transhumanism,
	General Repudiation of Transhumanism: Part II
In-Reply-To: <380-220084229205323135@M2W021.mail2web.com>
References: <380-220084229205323135@M2W021.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804291411q6e1ca869v354b61f4bef172aa@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/29/08, nvitamore at austin.rr.com <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi Jef and friends,

Hi Natasha. Thanks for your quick response.


>  This is just a quick follow-up as I am out of my study but I wanted to
>  respond right away.
>
>  I was invited to attent the most recent lecture by Hava (Dr. T-Samuelson
>  (sp)) but I was not available.  She called me last week as a follow-up, but
>  I was unable to return her call.
>
>  I do know James Hughes has been involved in her project.  I agree with you
>  Jef that it is odd that more transhumanists are not invited by her to
>  participate in the lectures.  She told me she is not interested in a H+
>  interpretation of her project but is looking at H+ from the eyes of non
>  H+ers.

LOL.  "Importance of context, etc. ..."


> I am not entirely sure she has an adequant and fully informed view
>  of H+.

Well, as long as you're reasonably sure...  ;-)

By the way, I stand corrected on my assertion that WTA was totally
unrepresented.  I just saw Dr. J's email where he explicity thanked
John Grigg for "representing us at this meeting."

- Jef
[Back to work within my own domain of effective influence.]


From jef at jefallbright.net  Tue Apr 29 19:54:54 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:54:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ASU Conference on Transhumanism,
	"General Repudiation of Transhumanism: Part II"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804291214wdf1f612x6739e9aa51a2363f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804291214wdf1f612x6739e9aa51a2363f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804291254w500e0e02mef10391d6d37fc66@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/29/08, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I attended a Templeton sponsored workshop on Transhumanism at ASU this past
> Friday and had a fascinating time.  The speakers were generally very good,
> though ironically some of them admitted from the start to not knowing very
> much about the subject (and it at times really showed).  I was offended when
> at the very start of the conference, Transhumanism was called a "shallow
> ideology" that did not warrant even being called a philosophy yet.

Thank you John for your **excellent** report!


> The conference was set up to be for basically only academics and so I was
> touched to be invited.  But the closed nature of the event (I had to "sniff
> it out" to even pursue going) bothered me.  I feel it should have been
> advertised (it is not even mentioned on their website!) and the general
> public allowed to attend.  But it was believed that keeping things closed
> would keep out many possibly noisy Transhumanists. lol  Several of the
> speaking academics were very critical of Transhumanism and I was very
> troubled that there were no prominent Transhumanists there such as Max More,
> Natasha Vita-More, Nick Bostrom, Anders Sandberg, James Hughes, etc., to
> counterbalance them.  It was definitely needed at times!  But I was told
> several Transhumanist academics had been invited, but for one reason or
> another did not accept.

I'm looking forward to receiving some word from the World
Transhumanist Association regarding this apparently total lack of
representation or involvement.

- Jef


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 29 21:55:17 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:55:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com><200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

BillK writes, speaking for the vast majority here, I am certain

> Once they entered the premises they saw young girls with babies,
> so child abuse was evident. As it was a commune, all the adults
> were probably [!] complicit in the sex abuse crime.
> They could not arrest all the adults and leave the children, so all
> the children were removed. It will all come out in court soon
> enough, but I don't see a problem here.

The problem that I see is your easy endorsement of the concept
of victimless crime. It's very likely that not a single individual
quite of his or her own free will has complained, or would want
to complain.

When I was a kid in southern California in the 1960s, there
were two men who lived across the street. They kept very
much to themselves, but were always courteous and polite
whenever anyone would talk to them. Tongues in the
neighborhood eventually began to wag, but fortunately 
no one thought of interfering. I don't even know if they
were officially commiting a "crime" in those days, but in
many states, they may very well have been arrested.

But you'll say, "well, consenting adults is okay". This
phrase "consenting adults" is of relatively recent vintage
and was and is nothing more than a rationalization. Times
change, and when we consult our feelings now, perhaps
we get different answers than we did then. 

"Oh, but they're only *children*!", the cry will then go out.
"They don't know what is best for them, their parents don't
know what is best for them, and their friends and neighbors
don't know what is best for them!

"But *WE* know what is best for them, and we have the
men, badges, dogs, and guns to prove it!"

Lee



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Apr 29 20:53:23 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:53:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] ASU Conference on Transhumanism,
	General Repudiation of Transhumanism: Part II
Message-ID: <380-220084229205323135@M2W021.mail2web.com>

Hi Jef and friends,

This is just a quick follow-up as I am out of my study but I wanted to
respond right away.

I was invited to attent the most recent lecture by Hava (Dr. T-Samuelson
(sp)) but I was not available.  She called me last week as a follow-up, but
I was unable to return her call.

I do know James Hughes has been involved in her project.  I agree with you
Jef that it is odd that more transhumanists are not invited by her to
participate in the lectures.  She told me she is not interested in a H+
interpretation of her project but is looking at H+ from the eyes of non
H+ers. I am not entirely sure she has an adequant and fully informed view
of H+. 

Best wishes,
Natasha







Original Message:
-----------------
From: Jef Allbright jef at jefallbright.net
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:54:54 -0700
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org, James.Hughes at trincoll.edu,
clementlawyer at hotmail.com, pjmanney at gmail.com, tyleremerson at gmail.com,
asa at nada.kth.se, natasha at natasha.cc
Subject: Re: [ExI] ASU Conference on Transhumanism, "General Repudiation of
Transhumanism: Part II"


On 4/29/08, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I attended a Templeton sponsored workshop on Transhumanism at ASU this
past
> Friday and had a fascinating time.  The speakers were generally very good,
> though ironically some of them admitted from the start to not knowing very
> much about the subject (and it at times really showed).  I was offended
when
> at the very start of the conference, Transhumanism was called a "shallow
> ideology" that did not warrant even being called a philosophy yet.

Thank you John for your **excellent** report!


> The conference was set up to be for basically only academics and so I was
> touched to be invited.  But the closed nature of the event (I had to
"sniff
> it out" to even pursue going) bothered me.  I feel it should have been
> advertised (it is not even mentioned on their website!) and the general
> public allowed to attend.  But it was believed that keeping things closed
> would keep out many possibly noisy Transhumanists. lol  Several of the
> speaking academics were very critical of Transhumanism and I was very
> troubled that there were no prominent Transhumanists there such as Max
More,
> Natasha Vita-More, Nick Bostrom, Anders Sandberg, James Hughes, etc., to
> counterbalance them.  It was definitely needed at times!  But I was told
> several Transhumanist academics had been invited, but for one reason or
> another did not accept.

I'm looking forward to receiving some word from the World
Transhumanist Association regarding this apparently total lack of
representation or involvement.

- Jef

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web




From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr 29 22:45:06 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:45:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Charity vs. Entitlements
In-Reply-To: <089001c8a883$4109e9d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>	<7641ddc60804260635x4db1bb36o54fe8ff6325013ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<089001c8a883$4109e9d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <8CA7861CE29182E-1410-170B@Webmail-mg19.sim.aol.com>




-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Corbin lcorbin at rawbw.com


Rafal responds to Stathis:

> Stathis wrote:
> 
> > Charity is fickle and degrading; when
> > I'm given something I want it to be
> > because I'm entitled to it.
>
>Exactly!!!   I myself probably just suffered a family
>reverse because I had been too generous to a .sibling.
>The poor resent the rich anyway, and generosity
>only makes it worse, at least for all too many.

 
I am on the fence with this. As someone who has come from less than nothing to considerably more, I have been recipient of charity and 
given it to others. I have always had that dirty and indebted feeling on the few occasions when someone has bailed me out of a situation
when I had neither the means or ability to help myself. because of this I have had a few periods of unemployment when I refused to take
state handouts. Which perversely prevented me from receiving any practical help or other free 'entitlements' because I wasn't signing on.
Despite that, I have always felt that you learn nothing and only loose self respect when you take charity.


Now the shoe is on the other well healed foot, I only give to those who cannot help themselves. Financially that is. Anyone is welcome to
my time and what little expertise and intelligence I have.
 

>I congratulate Stathis on seeing through to the way that
>poor people really think, despite his own favorable 
>position. (As for me, for some reason I am incredibly
>grateful to people when they do me a favor because
>they have some talent I lack;  I *believe* that I'd really,
>really be grateful if some old friend struck it rich and gave
>me a million dollars.)
>
 

I do think that the poor are indoctrinated into a culture of entitlement. They deeply believe that free handouts are a right and it surprises

me to what lengths and hard work they will go to receive something which they perceive as free. If only they could direct some of that

business savvy, logistical skill and hard work in the direction of supporting themselves. It is doubly troubling when people who do just that 

are ostracised by their family and peers or are the recipients of constant begging.

Alex


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 00:45:20 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:45:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Whole-organ cryopreservation successful.
In-Reply-To: <6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>
References: <4477.22109.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<25cb01c889d6$8663e740$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804291745u5cc4bd8dp8030bbc1dd33a2e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Bret Kulakovich
<bret at bonfireproductions.com> wrote:
>
> Not to over-simplify, obviously, but this is great news.
>
> I believe the key word here is "All" rather than "rat"
>
> ~]3
>
> ---
>
> Journal of Thoracic and Cardiovascular Surgery
>
> Successful restoration of function of frozen and thawed isolated rat hearts
> http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/content/vol135/issue3/
>
> " After normothermic perfusion, cold cardioplegia was induced followed by
> perfusion with a cryoprotecting agent. Hearts were than frozen to ?8?C (45 ?
> 8 minutes), thawed, and reperfused (60 minutes).
>
> Results: All frozen and thawed hearts regained normal electric activity. "

### The problem is that they have shown only recovery of electrical
activity which is of course good but this doesn't tell us too much
about the prospects for a successful transplant. That would only be
proven by recovery of function on reimplantation, and there we could
encounter significant difficulties due to induction of apoptosis.

Still, it's nice work.

Rafal


From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Wed Apr 30 00:48:56 2008
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:48:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Whole-organ cryopreservation (AND RESTORATION!)
	successful.
In-Reply-To: <6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>
References: <4477.22109.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<25cb01c889d6$8663e740$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>
Message-ID: <93E374DD-9FC8-4CC0-9938-793583650782@bonfireproductions.com>


Perhaps my subject wasn't well written?

Or did everyone know about the hearts in question all being perfused,  
frozen, thawed, and reperfused?



On Apr 28, 2008, at 8:58 PM, Bret Kulakovich wrote:

>
> Not to over-simplify, obviously, but this is great news.
>
> I believe the key word here is "All" rather than "rat"
>
> ~]3
>
> ---
>
> Journal of Thoracic and Cardiovascular Surgery
>
> Successful restoration of function of frozen and thawed isolated rat  
> hearts
> http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/content/vol135/issue3/
>
> " After normothermic perfusion, cold cardioplegia was induced  
> followed by perfusion with a cryoprotecting agent. Hearts were than  
> frozen to ?8?C (45 ? 8 minutes), thawed, and reperfused (60 minutes).
>
> Results: All frozen and thawed hearts regained normal electric  
> activity. "
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 01:00:15 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:00:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Car 'black box' event recorders step up a gear
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804290303t439cc276v7c65a9565d9eb55f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0804290303t439cc276v7c65a9565d9eb55f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804291800v17e539edv1acf98645c908e81@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, I have been searching the web for a product like this to install
in my car. Thanks for the pointer, I am now on their waiting
list....hopefully they can make enough of these devices so I can get
one this year.

Rafal

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:03 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> We've all heard about the black box recorders fitted in modern cars
>  that record the engine management data in the minutes before a crash.
>  They've already been introduced in court as evidence in fatal
>  accidents.
>
>  Well, there is a new kid on the block that is mostly appearing in
>  company cars at present.
>  The envisionCAM video camera, GPS and G-force Event Data Recorder.
>  <http://www.gizmag.com/envisioncam-video-camera-gps-and-g-force-event-data-recorder/9238/>
>
>  Quote:
>  The envisionCAM packs two ultra-wide angle cameras for a coverage of
>  almost 360 degrees inside AND outside the car - and they switch to
>  night vision when required. It records GPS and accelerometer g-force
>  data as well as high resolution video - and automatically transmits
>  data wirelessly when the car gets within range. The management
>  software is amazing - it'll pop up a flag when a fleet driver has
>  exceeded a certain speed or g-force rating, then show you zoomable
>  video around the event and Google Earth satellite photos of the
>  location. Any swearing or fist-shaking is reproduced in high-res
>  clarity. So not only will it act as an excellent witness for
>  accidents, it's a great way of deterring people from driving company
>  cars like they stole them.
>  -------------
>
>  The makers suggest that fitting to teens cars might also be a good
>  behavioural control.  :)
>
>


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 01:30:26 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:30:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Whole-organ cryopreservation (AND RESTORATION!)
	successful.
In-Reply-To: <93E374DD-9FC8-4CC0-9938-793583650782@bonfireproductions.com>
References: <4477.22109.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<25cb01c889d6$8663e740$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>
	<93E374DD-9FC8-4CC0-9938-793583650782@bonfireproductions.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804291830laaeb102g2809298c4727974f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Bret Kulakovich
<bret at bonfireproductions.com> wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps my subject wasn't well written?
>
> Or did everyone know about the hearts in question all being perfused,
> frozen, thawed, and reperfused?

### Yes, the hearts were reperfused but not reimplanted. The true test
of the technology would have to include reimplantation and observation
of function for at least 2 - 3 weeks after reimplantation, since
apoptosis is an active process taking up to a few days, and it may be
followed by scar formation which can take weeks. Apoptotic death is an
important limitation on the functioning of frozen and thawed tissues.

I can send the pdf to interested parties off-list.

Rafal


From ablainey at aol.com  Wed Apr 30 01:48:57 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:48:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Whole-organ cryopreservation (AND RESTORATION!)
	successful.
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804291830laaeb102g2809298c4727974f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4477.22109.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<25cb01c889d6$8663e740$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>	<93E374DD-9FC8-4CC0-9938-793583650782@bonfireproductions.com>
	<7641ddc60804291830laaeb102g2809298c4727974f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA787B7D347424-13F4-D07@WEBMAIL-MA12.sysops.aol.com>





Yes please Rafal


-----Original Message-----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>



I can send the pdf to interested parties off-list.

Rafal
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 02:03:42 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:03:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] ASU Conference on Transhumanism,
	"General Repudiation of Transhumanism: Part II"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804291214wdf1f612x6739e9aa51a2363f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804291214wdf1f612x6739e9aa51a2363f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804291903u13b8dca2q83109be72b7bad12@mail.gmail.com>

Excellent work, John!

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 02:35:09 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:35:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804291935r16699059g666753b2827aa06e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>
>  "Oh, but they're only *children*!", the cry will then go out.
>  "They don't know what is best for them, their parents don't
>  know what is best for them, and their friends and neighbors
>  don't know what is best for them!
>
>  "But *WE* know what is best for them, and we have the
>  men, badges, dogs, and guns to prove it!"

### Lee, again we agree. The whole FLDS mess has nothing to do with
prevention of child abuse, AFAIK. Children in polygamous families are
not more likely to suffer physical or mental abuse than children from
the general population. The do grow up to be well-adjusted, fully
functional adults. There is not a shred of trustworthy evidence (that
I am aware of)  to the contrary.

I am absolutely sure that the hundreds of children forcibly kidnapped
by the Texan government will suffer significant emotional trauma. I am
horrified and filled with anger at the thought that their parents are
forcibly separated from their children. I am really, really angry.

I know that the majority of the adults involved are religious nuts. I
am also sure that, no matter what the media and the government try to
say, these people are not, in their majority, intentionally inflicting
unwarranted suffering on their children. Some time ago, the former
consideration may have weighed heavily in my assessment of the
situation. Now, it is only the latter that is operable. In other
words, when I was younger I may have let my atheism trump my
libertarianism but no longer (even though, of course, I am just as
much an atheist as ever since age 7).

There can be no justification for violence against innocent children
and their parents. Not "they are breaking the law", nor "they are
religious nuts", nor "they have more wives than I do", nor "17 is too
young to have children", nor "they are just breeding more religious
nuts". By the moral law, FLDS cultists should be untouchable, unless
they commit violence - beating, imprisonment, rape. If all they do is
preaching to each other (and that *is* how they maintain their
communes), an honest person cannot send thugs to smack them down. If
you have a bone with them, try to do some preaching.

The true reason for the raid is not the desire to "save the children".
The real reason is male envy, the feeling that the FLDS males have it
too good, that they shouldn't be able to sleep with 2 or 3 or 10
women. This sentiment permeates the law enforcement and legal
apparatus, composed mostly of males, many of them of the
high-testosterone, dominant variety. For PR reasons they blather about
children but that's just self-deception and a smokescreen.

If I was a Texas taxpayer, I would be furious to know that my money
pays for the cops to go around cock-blocking religious nuts. What a
stupid world.

Rafal


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 02:37:52 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:37:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ASU Conference on Transhumanism,
	"General Repudiation of Transhumanism: Part II"
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740804291254w500e0e02mef10391d6d37fc66@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670804291214wdf1f612x6739e9aa51a2363f@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740804291254w500e0e02mef10391d6d37fc66@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550804291937vc3c6bfbmcb304b7d6a6f4e07@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:

> ...
>
> I'm looking forward to receiving some word from the World
> Transhumanist Association regarding this apparently total lack of
> representation or involvement.
>
> - Jef


Hi Jeff,
Both James Hughes and I of the WTA Board attended the 2007 event at ASU on
this topic. Neither of us could attend this year.

However, you can listen to a podcast of James'  excellent 2007 talk at:
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/thwtv08/
(I just wish you could see his dynamite PowerPoint that accompanied the
talk.)

James' talk was not universally admired, as you would expect with that
basically hostile audience, but it was very well-received by some, changing
a few minds, and garnering positive comments from several scientists in the
audience, including John Tooby and Pascal Boyer. Also in attendance were
Keith Henson and Arel Lucas.

Although it would have been good if we could have had an official WTA
speaker at the 2008 event, we simply do not have the resources in our
volunteer organization to send someone to every event we would like to.
Thankfully, transhumanist-friendly theologian Ted Peters was there, as was
our friend John Grigg. That counts for something.

Regards,
Mike LaTorra
WTA Director of Communications
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 30 02:35:07 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:35:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <mailman.80.1209217317.29458.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><4814E308.9010201@lineone.net>
	<710b78fc0804280052i3d116b20nc4ed811ad3a46be9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <091e01c8aa6b$5bc997e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Emlyn writes

> Lee [wrote]
> 
>  > Not so. Everything about them is COMPLETELY
>  > IDENTICAL.  From the point of view of physics,
>  > just how can you say that there are now *two*
>  > people?  As soon as a copy of a book is made,
>  > are there now two books?  In the *important*
>  > sense, there is just one book (the information is
>  > what is important, not the substrate!).
> 
> What if no one reads the book, ie: it stays on the shelf? Saying the
> information is important begs the question, why do you need runtime?

For one thing, if no one reads a copy of a book, it has no
possibility of affecting society's memes. Something similar
can be said if no one reads any copy of a book. 

But here, I grant, the analogy does break down. A book
needs no "runtime". Only algorithms (of which I consider
people to be a subset) require runtime.... but, you ask...
for what?

A sufficiently advanced program with the right characteristics
can receive *benefit* according to its own values. So far,
the only programs I've heard express themselves on this
subject, i.e., people, say that being frozen is a lot like being
dead. Indeed, if I become cryonically frozen, but am never
revivified, then it will be the same to me and to those who
love me as if I'd straight-away died.

Or, as Ralph Merkle put it, "being dead is dull". We usually
suppose, however, that being dead doesn't even make the
grade up to "being dull". For one to be dead, even if perfectly
preserved down to the cellular level by embalmers, doesn't
allow one any experiences at all, unless and until a reanimation
---by definition supplying runtime---is achieved.

> (I don't know the answer to this)

Thanks for the disambiguator  :-)   I hope I read your question
right.

Lee



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 02:45:26 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:45:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Charity vs. Entitlements
In-Reply-To: <089001c8a883$4109e9d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804260635x4db1bb36o54fe8ff6325013ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<089001c8a883$4109e9d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804291945s7b4aa994g6c0fd83e6560ae21@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>  Rafal responded
>
>  > ### The way I see it, the only, only thing you are entitled
>  > to is freedom from violence. You don't have any rights to
>  > anybody's time, money, resources. You don't have the
>  > right to take anything from others against their will. Even
>  > if there are 50 million of people like you, you still don't
>  > have the right to take anything from me. Merely "wanting"
>  > doesn't entitle you to anything.
>
>  Very true.  But completely inapplicable to reality at this
>  time, it appears.

### Not inapplicable. By performing this ethical evaluation I come to
real-world applicable conclusions: I am not bound by moral law to obey
demands from the entitlees. I may bend to superior force but it is
right and proper and fair to deny them their satisfaction whenever and
however I can. Maybe this doesn't count for much in the greater scheme
of things but it does mean something for me.

Rafal


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 30 02:49:24 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:49:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Upload Game
References: <676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <092901c8aa6d$78135830$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

The Avantguardian writes

> As Ben alluded to in his post, "The Tempest" in Chinese is not signal but noise
> to someone who doesn't understand Chinese, despite having the same information
> content as the English version. He simply has the wrong CODEC. Now if as Lee
> suggested, books were intelligent subjective agents, the Chinese and English
> instances of the pattern known as "The Origin of Species" would probably not
> understand each other, let alone claim to be the same entity. 

"If books were intelligent subjective agents" is an hypothesis badly
in need of clarification. I suggest that you simply don't bother with
that analogy any further.

> I disagree with Lee about the importance of substrate to identity. In many
> cases, the substrate is very important. The "Lord of the Rings" on film could
> never be *identical* to the books no matter how well it was made.

As you know, I was *denying* the importance of substrate to identity,
a point that may become lost on your reading of Ben's post. It's very
important that I be clearly understood on this when advanced AIs
in some universes pour over these archives trying to put me back
together again.

Neither the book nor the movie qualify as *algorithms*. Therefore
it is entirely futile to inquire as to their functional identity. To the
(very large) degree that I am a functionalist, substrate doesn't matter.
Most of us here can entertain the premise of Kafka's "The Metamorphosis"
and can imagine awakening as a giant cockroach. If you really believed
that substrate was important to your identity, you'd probably
dismiss his idea out of hand as completely unmeaningful.

> McLuhan said, "The medium is the message" and when it comes
> to life, identity, and consciousness, I would agree.

Isn't there any "metamorphosis" that would leave you the same
person?  Or are you one of these people who believe that
losing a limb or becoming a quadraplegic is tantamount to
having failed to survive?

While you're at it, maybe you can re-affirm (if I'm not mistaken)
that you're an "upload-denier"?  Hmm, perhaps we can get
some Member of Parliament to go on record as wanting that
made illegal.

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 03:13:36 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:13:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804292013g32d25177y50cc853aac9b4223@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin stunned me by writing (and Rafal by agreeing):
When I was a kid in southern California in the 1960s, there
were two men who lived across the street. They kept very
much to themselves, but were always courteous and polite
whenever anyone would talk to them. Tongues in the
neighborhood eventually began to wag, but fortunately
no one thought of interfering. I don't even know if they
were officially commiting a "crime" in those days, but in
many states, they may very well have been arrested.
But you'll say, "well, consenting adults is okay". This
phrase "consenting adults" is of relatively recent vintage
and was and is nothing more than a rationalization. Times
change, and when we consult our feelings now, perhaps
we get different answers than we did then.

 "Oh, but they're only *children*!", the cry will then go out.
"They don't know what is best for them, their parents don't
know what is best for them, and their friends and neighbors
don't know what is best for them!

"But *WE* know what is best for them, and we have the
men, badges, dogs, and guns to prove it!"
>>>


Sorry.  I will not compare two *adult* gay men living together to 14 and 15
year-old teenage girls who were brainwashed by their parent's religious
cult/commune to enter into sexual relationships & have babies with with men
generally a number of *decades* older than they are, while the young men
*their own age* have been "cock-blocked" by the older males who are in
positions of power and want to horde the females for themselves.

I realize this was "how things were" for millennia among humans, but we
have matured/become more enlightened over the last century or so.
These men are horrific exploiters of the young teenage girls in their
community and they deserve to be jailed a long time for it.

John Grigg
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 30 03:12:43 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:12:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Charity vs. Entitlements
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>	<7641ddc60804260635x4db1bb36o54fe8ff6325013ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<089001c8a883$4109e9d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<8CA7861CE29182E-1410-170B@Webmail-mg19.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <092e01c8aa70$46333800$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Alex writes

> [Lee wrote]
> 
> > Rafal responds to Stathis:
> > 
> > > Stathis wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Charity is fickle and degrading; when
> > > > I'm given something I want it to be
> > > > because I'm entitled to it.
> > > 
> > Exactly!!!   I myself probably just suffered a family
> > reverse because I had been too generous to a .sibling.
> > The poor resent the rich anyway, and generosity
> > only makes it worse, at least for all too many.
> 
> I am on the fence with this.

Thanks for the testimony. I really do want to understand
how people think. It would be almost as helpful as if I
understood how I think.

> As someone who has come from less than nothing to
> considerably more, I have been recipient of charity and 
> given it to others. I have always had that dirty and indebted
> feeling on the few occasions when someone has bailed m
> out of a situation when I had neither the means or ability to
> help myself.

Is it perhaps an assault on your pride? This just occurs to me.
Hmm. How obvious. Maybe I've just lost all mine. I'm not
even annoyed anymore when a passenger gives me unneeded
instructions where to turn next.

If I've got it here, then the sort of pride you're talking about is
quite illogical, no?  After all, *you* already knew that your
situation left a lot to be desired, probably due to a 
shortcoming or two on your own part. So do you think
that it was the *public* (or semi-public) acknowledgment
of the fact that hurt?

> Because of this I have had a few periods of unemployment
> when I refused to take state handouts.

But that could be sheer principle on your part. But again, I don't
find it at all logical. It wasn't *you* who passed the legislation.
BTW, I *am* not sending back the "entitlement" check that
the U.S. government has decided to send me. Why should I be
triply punished for not getting my way about policy *and* taxed
*and* being too principled to take the money?

> Which perversely prevented me from receiving any practical help...

sheer insanity (sorry---but that help could have been *important*!)

> Despite that, I have always felt that you learn nothing and only
> lose self-respect when you take charity.

I wax intolerant. ISN'T THE SELF-RESPECT <calmness>, isn't
the self-respect already lost? Well---sorry, I'm asking you to 
account for feelings, and since I can't account for very many of mine,
perhaps that's best not answered.

> Now the shoe is on the other well healed foot, I only give to
> those who cannot help themselves.

So if Mr. Gates died, and mysteriously and quietly left all his
billions to Alex Blainey, you wouldn't pass any of it around
to your old pals? (Just asking.) What about delightful email
correspondents?

Lee



From alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 30 01:13:56 2008
From: alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com (Alan Brooks)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] hgh
Message-ID: <586668.59070.qm@web46109.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

is hgh worth its price?



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 08:10:10 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 04:10:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] hgh
In-Reply-To: <586668.59070.qm@web46109.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <586668.59070.qm@web46109.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804300110k3e8aecbak23fe3266ef014558@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Alan Brooks
<alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> is hgh worth its price?

### No. In fact, unless you are a pituitary dwarf you shouldn't take
it even if you were paid.

Rafal


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 08:20:03 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:20:03 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Charity vs. Entitlements
In-Reply-To: <8CA7861CE29182E-1410-170B@Webmail-mg19.sim.aol.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804260635x4db1bb36o54fe8ff6325013ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<089001c8a883$4109e9d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<8CA7861CE29182E-1410-170B@Webmail-mg19.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804300120j5367406etc52193f29c40815a@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/30  <ablainey at aol.com>:

> I am on the fence with this. As someone who has come from less than nothing
> to considerably more, I have been recipient of charity and
>
> given it to others. I have always had that dirty and indebted feeling on the
> few occasions when someone has bailed me out of a situation
>
> when I had neither the means or ability to help myself. because of this I
> have had a few periods of unemployment when I refused to take
>
> state handouts. Which perversely prevented me from receiving any practical
> help or other free 'entitlements' because I wasn't signing on.
>
> Despite that, I have always felt that you learn nothing and only loose self
> respect when you take charity.

But state handouts, such as they may be, are *not* charity, which was
the original point I was trying to make. They are more like the
handouts your insurance company gives you when your house burns down,
even though you have only paid premiums for a few months. The other
people people paying premiums agree to help you out in case of bad
luck provided that you agree to do the same for them. It's the same
sort of agreement when you live in a state that taxes citizens to
provide benefits for other citizens. If you don't like paying the
taxes you are free to move elsewhere, or to abstain from the sort of
activities that require the payment of taxes. The world is full of
independent entities constantly adjusting their level of taxation and
government-provided services in order to compete with each other.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 08:21:35 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 04:21:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804292013g32d25177y50cc853aac9b4223@mail.gmail.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804292013g32d25177y50cc853aac9b4223@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804300121x5dba1b41r807811de7663a36c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 11:13 PM, John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

 These men are
> horrific exploiters of the young teenage girls in their community and they
> deserve to be jailed a long time for it.

### Can you be more precise? In what way is this horrific exploitation
accomplished? Is there any use of physical force against resisting
persons? Use of threats of physical violence? Threats of
incarceration? Intentional starvation? Is there an unbiased,
statistical analysis of the frequency, if any, of such acts among the
FLDS members? Is there an analysis of outcomes, i.e. the frequency of
severe emotional trauma, and the level of adjustment among FLDS
members? How do they compare in such measures with average Americans?
How do they compare on these measures to the survivors of kidnapping
and persons raised in foster care or in orphanages?

Do you really think that kidnapping hundreds of children is justified
by a desire to punish their fathers?

Rafal


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Apr 30 08:22:10 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 01:22:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] hgh
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804300110k3e8aecbak23fe3266ef014558@mail.gmail.com>
References: <586668.59070.qm@web46109.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<7641ddc60804300110k3e8aecbak23fe3266ef014558@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48182C32.7060903@mac.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Alan Brooks
> <alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   
>> is hgh worth its price?
>>     
>
> ### No. In fact, unless you are a pituitary dwarf you shouldn't take
> it even if you were paid.
>
>   
This is rather unusually opinionated without giving reasons for you.   
Many would disagree with the above opinion and I don't think they are 
all fools.  So what is your reasoning?

- samantha



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 08:29:34 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 04:29:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] hgh
In-Reply-To: <48182C32.7060903@mac.com>
References: <586668.59070.qm@web46109.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<7641ddc60804300110k3e8aecbak23fe3266ef014558@mail.gmail.com>
	<48182C32.7060903@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804300129h4633ab6fsf577e76a77ad2891@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:22 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Alan Brooks
> > <alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > is hgh worth its price?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ### No. In fact, unless you are a pituitary dwarf you shouldn't take
> > it even if you were paid.
> >
> >
> >
>  This is rather unusually opinionated without giving reasons for you.   Many
> would disagree with the above opinion and I don't think they are all fools.
> So what is your reasoning?

### There is no evidence of any beneficial effects of HGH in
non-deficient persons. Even the sarcopenia data are not highly
convincing. There is absolutely no indication that HGH prolongs
survival, and in fact, lifetime overexposure, in cases of pituitary
gigantism or acromegaly, tends to be associated with premature aging,
development of diabetes, and premature death. I know that there is a
lot of speculation and hype on this subject but I haven't seen any
double-blind studies in healthy adults confirming benefits.

Rafal


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 08:51:08 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:51:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804300121x5dba1b41r807811de7663a36c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804292013g32d25177y50cc853aac9b4223@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804300121x5dba1b41r807811de7663a36c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804300151g16880b6ao5dbe1335f6502e9b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>  ### Can you be more precise? In what way is this horrific exploitation
>  accomplished? Is there any use of physical force against resisting
>  persons? Use of threats of physical violence? Threats of
>  incarceration? Intentional starvation? Is there an unbiased,
>  statistical analysis of the frequency, if any, of such acts among the
>  FLDS members? Is there an analysis of outcomes, i.e. the frequency of
>  severe emotional trauma, and the level of adjustment among FLDS
>  members? How do they compare in such measures with average Americans?
>  How do they compare on these measures to the survivors of kidnapping
>  and persons raised in foster care or in orphanages?
>
>  Do you really think that kidnapping hundreds of children is justified
>  by a desire to punish their fathers?


The reason for removal of the children was not to punish the adults.
It was to stop the adults from continuing to abuse the children.
Quote:
Authorities believe that of the 53 girls aged between 14 and 17, 29
are already mothers and two are pregnant.
"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty
pervasive," said Darrell Azar, a spokesman for the Texas Child
Protective Services.
---------------------

The adults *will* be punished in due course by the legal system.
Warren Jeffs (their former leader) is serving ten years in jail as an
accomplice to rape after he forced a 14-year-old girl to marry her
cousin.
The self-proclaimed prophet is currently awaiting trial in Arizona on
charges of being an accomplice to four counts of incest and sexual
conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages.


There was physical violence to children going on in that compound. But
it is a serious weakness in your libertarian extremist views if you
say that *physical* violence is the only violence that matters.

BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 11:50:32 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:50:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Whole-organ cryopreservation (AND RESTORATION!)
	successful.
In-Reply-To: <93E374DD-9FC8-4CC0-9938-793583650782@bonfireproductions.com>
References: <4477.22109.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<6C871C15-D268-431A-A1B2-BE3B1E7A5CE7@bonfireproductions.com>
	<93E374DD-9FC8-4CC0-9938-793583650782@bonfireproductions.com>
Message-ID: <200804300650.32699.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 29 April 2008, Bret Kulakovich wrote:
> Or did everyone know about the hearts in question all being perfused,
> ? frozen, thawed, and reperfused?

Yes. There are many other experiments that you should check into as 
well. The electrical activity in the cat brain was interesting, from 
the 60s.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From xuenay at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 13:18:42 2008
From: xuenay at gmail.com (Kaj Sotala)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:18:42 +0300
Subject: [ExI] Nanotech and society any good?
Message-ID: <6a13bb8f0804300618v662aa386jcb7b9e61c4c20c03@mail.gmail.com>

I spotted a mention of this on KurzweilAI:
http://www.amazon.com/Nanotechnology-Society-Fritz-Allhoff/dp/1402062087/

It's on the expensive side, so I was wondering if anybody had read it
(or written something for it) and knew if it was any good?



-- 
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/ | http://xuenay.livejournal.com/

Organizations worth your time:
http://www.singinst.org/ | http://www.crnano.org/ | http://lifeboat.com/


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr 30 13:38:59 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:38:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804292013g32d25177y50cc853aac9b4223@mail.gmail.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804292013g32d25177y50cc853aac9b4223@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48187673.7030107@insightbb.com>

John Grigg wrote:
>
> Lee Corbin stunned me by writing (and Rafal by agreeing):
> When I was a kid in southern California in the 1960s, there
> were two men who lived across the street. They kept very
> much to themselves, but were always courteous and polite
> whenever anyone would talk to them. Tongues in the
> neighborhood eventually began to wag, but fortunately
> no one thought of interfering. I don't even know if they
> were officially commiting a "crime" in those days, but in
> many states, they may very well have been arrested.
>
> But you'll say, "well, consenting adults is okay". This
> phrase "consenting adults" is of relatively recent vintage
> and was and is nothing more than a rationalization. Times
> change, and when we consult our feelings now, perhaps
> we get different answers than we did then.
>  
> "Oh, but they're only *children*!", the cry will then go out.
> "They don't know what is best for them, their parents don't
> know what is best for them, and their friends and neighbors
> don't know what is best for them!
>  
> "But *WE* know what is best for them, and we have the
> men, badges, dogs, and guns to prove it!"
> >>>
>  
>  
> Sorry.  I will not compare two *adult* gay men living together to 14 
> and 15 year-old teenage girls who were brainwashed by their parent's 
> religious cult/commune to enter into sexual relationships & have 
> babies with with men generally a number of *decades* older than they 
> are, while the young men *their own age* have been "cock-blocked" by 
> the older males who are in positions of power and want to horde the 
> females for themselves.  
>  
> I realize this was "how things were" for millennia among humans, but 
> we have matured/become more enlightened over the last century or so.  
> These men are horrific exploiters of the young teenage girls in their 
> community and they deserve to be jailed a long time for it.   
>   
> John Grigg
>  
I don't know, John. You think these girls had it that rough? I think it 
would have been a lot more sensible to just go in and ask them which 
ones wanted to leave rather than forcing them to leave. Those who were 
happy should have been left alone regardless of their ages - assuming 
that they had reached sexual maturity and there was no real abuse going 
on. (defining abuse is another challenge, but say it involves yelling, 
intimidation and inflicting pain that the person does not wish to accept)

Of course we could have the brainwashing debate but that's a waste of 
time. There is a fine line between brainwashing and cultural education. 
All the ads we see, movies we watch, books we read, and education we get 
in school amounts to brainwashing. I am brainwashing my kids right now 
to reject drugs and fight peer pressure. Brainwashing is only wrong when 
you are causing harm and I challenge you to show me how a 14 year old 
girl who is happy where she is and pregnant in a closed society is 
really suffering. (Note I am not referring to those that are not happy 
and wish to leave which I already addressed). Of course you could argue 
about mental abuse, but if you really want to see mental abuse, take 
these 14 year old girls and throw them into foster homes and into a 
public high-school.....Did you ever see "Mean Girls"?

Kevin Freels


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr 30 13:42:44 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:42:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Call for presentations at International Space Development
 Conference 2008
In-Reply-To: <022a01c8a9ef$d4cc5d20$6401a8c0@PC>
References: <710b78fc0804280052i3d116b20nc4ed811ad3a46be9@mail.gmail.com>
	<676417.75085.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<022a01c8a9ef$d4cc5d20$6401a8c0@PC>
Message-ID: <48187754.5070705@insightbb.com>

Amara D. Angelica wrote:
>
> I'm chairing a session on May 29 at the National Space Society's 
> International Space Development Conference 2008 
> (http://www.isdc2008.org/) in Washington DC on using the resources of 
> the solar system to benefit humanity over the next few hundred years 
> or more (such as backing up civilization in space settlements or by 
> storage of data and DNA on the Moon). The NSS is particularly 
> interested in innovative transhumanist ideas, such as ways humans can 
> be augmented to survive and better function in space or uploading into 
> a space-compatible intelligent substrate. Participants in the session 
> so far are Robin Hanson and Jerry Glenn. I welcome all suggestions.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   
This looks like an excellent opportunity for spike to present the 
Midgets to Mars campaign..... I mean, "The benefits of utilizing human 
beings of considerably small stature to reduce space exploration and 
colonization costs and increase efficiency without the need for 
expensive and experimental augmentation."
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 13:44:12 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:44:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Nanotech and society any good?
In-Reply-To: <6a13bb8f0804300618v662aa386jcb7b9e61c4c20c03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a13bb8f0804300618v662aa386jcb7b9e61c4c20c03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804300644l27abd6ccu59b7930e32d100ec@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Kaj Sotala wrote:
> I spotted a mention of this on KurzweilAI:
>  http://www.amazon.com/Nanotechnology-Society-Fritz-Allhoff/dp/1402062087/
>
>  It's on the expensive side, so I was wondering if anybody had read it
>  (or written something for it) and knew if it was any good?
>

It doesn't appear to be a technical book, according to the press release.
<http://www.nanotech-now.com/news.cgi?story_id=29112>

Quote:
The Nanoethics Group today announced that it has released a collection
of important papers addressing a range of near-term issues related to
nanotechnology's ethical and social implications.
The book is divided into five units: foundational issues; risk and
regulation; industry and policy; the human condition; and selected
global issues. The essays tackle such contentious issues as
environmental impact, health dangers, medical benefits, intellectual
property, professional code of ethics, privacy, international
governance, and more.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 14:10:37 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:10:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] polyamory
In-Reply-To: <61960.64325.qm@web56506.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080428140642.02425fc0@satx.rr.com>
	<61960.64325.qm@web56506.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804300710v21eb7517r9f9f3fbbe9ecae50@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Anne Corwin <sparkle_robot at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm *not* poly myself -- it's not a persuasion for those of us who suck at
> multitasking -- but I live in the SF Bay Area, and it's actually sort of
> weird for me at this point to think of polyamory as anything other than a
> "normal relationship structure variation".

It is interesting to see how cultural issues colour very differently
similar behaviours. In Milan, e.g., many people adopt a lifestyle of
casual promiscuity coupled with a few more serious and long-standing
relationships, lifestyle which may or may not include occasional group
sex, but rarely theorise it being a "relationship structure
variation".

Stefano Vaj


From alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 30 13:14:26 2008
From: alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com (Alan Brooks)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:14:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Charity vs. Entitlements
Message-ID: <70019.57586.qm@web46116.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Religious charity is the most effective way to go. Also religion is a glue that can help keep families intact so there are less wards of the state. i'm writing a book called 'Religion Reconsidered' that mentions how the Catholic Church is a large cost-effective welfare state-within-a-state.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 14:24:17 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:24:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804300151g16880b6ao5dbe1335f6502e9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804292013g32d25177y50cc853aac9b4223@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804300121x5dba1b41r807811de7663a36c@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0804300151g16880b6ao5dbe1335f6502e9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804300724n111842eco8dd998d3511d5a82@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:51 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Quote:
>  Authorities believe that of the 53 girls aged between 14 and 17, 29
>  are already mothers and two are pregnant.
>  "It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty
>  pervasive," said Darrell Azar, a spokesman for the Texas Child
>  Protective Services.

### Where is the proof of abuse? Where is the testimony of victims
attesting to their abuse?
----------------------

>  There was physical violence to children going on in that compound. But
>  it is a serious weakness in your libertarian extremist views if you
>  say that *physical* violence is the only violence that matters.
>

### Aha, so now there is something like "non-physical violence".
What's next, "meatless chickens"?

Being very precise about what I call violence is not my moral
weakness, it's a strength. It does not let me deceive myself into
advocating violence without a really good reason. I won't ever suggest
using armed troopers to punish helmet-less bikers (as one commie I
know suggested), or to send UN troops to Thailand to prevent Thai
prostitutes from selling sex to American johns (as another commie
wanted). I won't so easily talk myself into transgressing against
reciprocity, into busting down doors and breaking up families that
don't fit my pet notions of how a family should work. Violence is
physical by definition.

Obviously, violence is not the only thing that matters. There is also
deception, manipulation, lies, as well as stupidity, confusion,
religion. But by reciprocity, *only* violence, only a physical attack
or a threat thereof, allow a physical, violent response. However
sleazy and revolting somebody may appear to you, he must be
untouchable, unless he commits violence first.

To allow yourself more leeway in naming and therefore in using
violence only guarantees useless, stupid and wasteful strife, or in
other words, business as usual.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 30 14:17:03 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:17:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804300151g16880b6ao5dbe1335f6502e9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804301445.m3UEj7BO008744@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...
> 
> The reason for removal of the children was not to punish the adults.
> It was to stop the adults from continuing to abuse the children.
> Quote:
> Authorities believe that of the 53 girls aged between 14 and 
> 17, 29 are already mothers and two are pregnant.
> "It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty 
> pervasive," said Darrell Azar, a spokesman for the Texas 
> Child Protective Services...> BillK


Agreed that the FLDS people were doing wrong.  The critical question now
becomes this: if I show you a neighborhood with teen pregnancy numbers
similar to these, is the government obligated to go into that neighborhood
and seize all the children who live there?

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 30 14:20:28 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:20:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Call for presentations at International Space Development
	Conference 2008
In-Reply-To: <48187754.5070705@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804301448.m3UEmTIH005062@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

... [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Freels
...
	
	
	Amara D. Angelica wrote: 

		I'm chairing a session on May 29 at the National Space
Society's International Space Development Conference 2008
(http://www.isdc2008.org/ <http://www.isdc2008.org/> ...

	This looks like an excellent opportunity for spike to present the
Midgets to Mars campaign..... I mean, "The benefits of utilizing human
beings of considerably small stature to reduce space exploration and
colonization costs and increase efficiency without the need for expensive
and experimental augmentation."  Kevin


I pitched the idea to a group of aerospace weight engineers.  It didn't sell
at first.  They had to go home and do the calculations themselves.

spike
	




From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr 30 15:02:01 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:02:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Call for presentations at International Space Development
 Conference 2008
In-Reply-To: <200804301448.m3UEmTIH005062@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804301448.m3UEmTIH005062@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <481889E9.6000204@insightbb.com>

spike wrote:
>  
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> ... [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
> Freels
> ...
> 	
> 	
> 	Amara D. Angelica wrote: 
>
> 		I'm chairing a session on May 29 at the National Space
> Society's International Space Development Conference 2008
> (http://www.isdc2008.org/ <http://www.isdc2008.org/> ...
>
> 	This looks like an excellent opportunity for spike to present the
> Midgets to Mars campaign..... I mean, "The benefits of utilizing human
> beings of considerably small stature to reduce space exploration and
> colonization costs and increase efficiency without the need for expensive
> and experimental augmentation."  Kevin
>
>
> I pitched the idea to a group of aerospace weight engineers.  It didn't sell
> at first.  They had to go home and do the calculations themselves.
>
> spike
> 	
>
>   
They had to go home to do the calculations? When I first mentioned it to 
my 12 yr old daughter she thought it was so obvious she was surprised it 
hadn't already been done. To her it wasn't "why don't we send really 
small people into space?", it was "Why have we been sending full-sized 
humans all this time?" She can't do all of the calculations but from her 
little experience flying model rockets with me she knows that when you 
reduce launch weight, you can reduce fuel which of course reduces the 
weight even further.


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr 30 15:08:01 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:08:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <200804301445.m3UEj7BO008744@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804301445.m3UEj7BO008744@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <48188B51.2080400@insightbb.com>


>
> Agreed that the FLDS people were doing wrong.  The critical question now
> becomes this: if I show you a neighborhood with teen pregnancy numbers
> similar to these, is the government obligated to go into that neighborhood
> and seize all the children who live there?
>
> spike
>
>
>   
Ouch. That was so observant that it just smacked me in the face while I 
wasn't looking. We have a lot of abuse and neglect in my own small town 
and most of the time these parents just get a "talking to" by child 
protective services despite the fact that "everyone knows" what lousy 
parents they are. And yes, many of them turn up pregnant - sometimes as 
young as 12. But I guess it's not entirely the same. These are most 
often girls impregnated by other kids at their school. It seems that the 
biggest concern isn't the teen pregnancy. It's the age of the penis that 
caused it.


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 15:22:59 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:22:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <200804301445.m3UEj7BO008744@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <ee50357e0804300151g16880b6ao5dbe1335f6502e9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804301445.m3UEj7BO008744@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804300822q3c330732t626808ba5b2794ad@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 3:17 PM, spike wrote:
>  Agreed that the FLDS people were doing wrong.  The critical question now
>  becomes this: if I show you a neighborhood with teen pregnancy numbers
>  similar to these, is the government obligated to go into that neighborhood
>  and seize all the children who live there?
>


If we lived in a total surveillance, totalitarian society where every
lawbreaker was punished, then 'Yes'.

But we don't. We live a sort-of-free society where highlighted
lawbreakers are punished to deter others from similar misbehaviour.
The FLDS broke Utah laws and then moved to Texas because they thought
Texas was an easier ride. From Texas POV that had to be dealt with.
(Bit like the Wesley Snipes tax case).

Sure, it's not fair. But life isn't fair.  Just hope you aren't the
one they make an example of.

I never really grumble about the occasional speeding fine (after the
red rage clears, that is!).
I just remember the other 3052 times when I wasn't fined.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 30 15:30:37 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:30:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...
In-Reply-To: <08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <918a899d0804262149x63d05bd8gcd775add4836a9b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804270559.m3R5xIGd004549@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804270456j1e24db02u6d04fab8ed07c7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<08ec01c8aa44$1cb52230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <580930c20804300830y691a9f8fgb2b1cce51fc9b37f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>  "Oh, but they're only *children*!", the cry will then go out.
>  "They don't know what is best for them, their parents don't
>  know what is best for them, and their friends and neighbors
>  don't know what is best for them!
>
>  "But *WE* know what is best for them, and we have the
>  men, badges, dogs, and guns to prove it!"

Yes, I think that much goes down to that, which means, btw, that after
a while you start seeing a moral duty to enforce your way of life also
in other sovereign countries.

And personally I prefer to err on the side of a community's freedom to
give itself its own rules...

Stefano Vaj


From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr 30 17:25:49 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:25:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI]  VR
References: <f21c22e30801022248g2c55ebb1y98447c96670ca0bb@mail.gmail.com><f7bfe5740801030846j755dc1b0k56bc155cf0c485a2@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080103114254.02281710@satx.rr.com><200801031339.51748.kanzure@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080103142221.022d2dd8@satx.rr.com><2d6187670801101827y6793cb56sef4991df9f61a72c@mail.gmail.com><62c14240801110652v4c686b92w7d45ca586ee9ef6b@mail.gmail.com><580930c20801110658k54a8cffbh5d2eb6848b52bd02@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240801110723u426d7a99q2ebeba3a8c0c384d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c8aae7$3d53ab80$9de41e97@archimede>

Mike Dougherty asked:
[Friday, January 11, 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] "create our own realities"]

> Now does the majority believe there may be 
> some "real" issue with peanuts?

Yes. Good question, btw.
But there are 'scientists' who ....

The Physical World as a Virtual Reality
http://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0337
Computational Universes
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0305048
The VR hypothesis
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/2008/01/vr-hypothesis.html




From alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 30 20:50:32 2008
From: alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com (Alan Brooks)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:50:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ExI] charity vs entitlements
Message-ID: <179014.89683.qm@web46112.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

if theres a depression next decade religious charities will be needed. 
the situation is different now than in the waning days of the Roman empire where churches preached only the afterlife and not the potentialities of Now.



 remember, intellectuals aren't as liked as much as they like themselves



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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