From sentience at pobox.com  Tue Apr  1 01:29:12 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:29:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>

Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
government.

As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon emissions 
from coal plants that should never have been built.

It is not necessarily possible for the "free market" to swoop in and 
fix these problems after they have had 40 years to get worse.

Right now, we *should* have an upper bound of $5 on gas because 
everyone knows it's possible to just build more nuclear power plants 
and synthesize fuel from atmospheric carbon.  But, in fact, we don't 
live in that world.

China should be building one nuclear power plant per day using their 
foreign exchange surplus - after the rich West paid to do the design 
work, and standardized the plant manufacturing.  Instead, China is 
building one coal plant every 4 days.

The "free market" has *already* been stomped on, and the lead time to 
fix things is not instantaneous.

If I put it that way, do you see how much trouble we may be in?

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 01:31:20 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:31:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>

At 11:31 PM 3/31/2008 +0100, ben zaiboc wrote:

>Why would being convinced that the "mapping over there" is you, lead to
>being relaxed about the other you, over here,  being obliterated? This
>makes no sense (to me. See below).
>...
>Why on earth would anyone think this?

You'll have to take this up with John Clark, who says so quite often. 
(As long as there's only a second or so's post-duplication lag, 
although some are apparently more lax about discrepancies.)

Damien Broderick 



From jef at jefallbright.net  Tue Apr  1 00:25:26 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:25:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <552780.81939.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f7bfe5740803281001l7ee92bbbsf5bc57f1c4da531a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740803281009h5b4b80e4td181d61e971b7700@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d301c892d7$57db8f90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740803310741i2e4dff17k80f395646e3eed49@mail.gmail.com>
	<019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  That still leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Oh, and by the way,
>  I do plead guilty to being focused upon personal *survival*. But,
>  you see, what I really want to understand are the necessary and
>  sufficient conditions that you endorse for the continued existence
>  of a *person*----that is what the question of personal identity
>  amounts to. Your slightly modified definition or characterization
>  I have offset above fails to explain just when a "personal identity"
>  ceases to be, even by degree.
>
>  We were closer back in the days when you'd agree that a 6 year
>  old Alice was not the same person as the 86 year old Alice. But
>  it seems to me that you are becoming increasingly vague and
>  obscure.

On the contrary, I posted that little story about Aging Alice,
<http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2006-November/030182.html>,
to show that the diachronic self entails /no/ difference of identity
for the person or their society -- to the extent that agency is
maintained.

I showed how Alice as a young girl, Alice as a young adult, Alice as a
mature adult, and even Alice in old age could have substantial, even
conflicting, differences in their memories, values, functions and
morphology, yet be easily, naturally, and effectively considered the
same person by herself and those around her.  I showed also how the
entity Alice of future technology could have simultaneous "variants
and doubles" in addition to the aging meat body, all considered the
same self to the extent they act on behalf of the same entity.

In contrast, your view becomes increasingly incoherent as it departs
from the special case of exact duplicates at T=0.

You've said many times that as duplicates diverge in form and function
they become less the same person.  In acknowledging this you recognize
that it raises a fundamental question but you're unable to quantify or
fit a function.  And you can't because it's only a special case,
operating according to principles outside your model, that you've
chosen to ignore -- apparently because to do so would undermine the
Key to Personal Survival you've been so tightly grasping and carefully
polishing all these years.  You can't possibly come up with even an
approximate function for relating physical/functional/pattern
divergence to personal identity divergence -- because personal
identity is not a function of physical/functional/pattern similarity.
Physical/functional/pattern similarity is merely *correlated in our
experience* with identity because it's the simplest, most probable
example of personal agency, with that probability approaching absolute
certainty as all differences approach indiscernibility.

Personal identity is not a function of physical/functional/pattern
similarity -- that's only a special case.
Personal identity is a function of the extent to which an agent is
perceived to act on behalf of a (personal) entity.

Regardless of changes in physical form; function lost or enhanced;
memories lost, gained, modified or even "made up"; values cherished
and then left behind, emotional response changing over minutes, hours,
weeks, years; spatial change, temporal change, spatio-temporal
replicas... None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
extent it impacts agency.

...

As I thought about how to lay out the rest of a proper response, I
realized I've said it all before.

When will I learn?

Have fun, Lee.  This particular sandbox is all yours.

- Jef


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aging Alice

Alice at the age of six loved playing with dolls but boys were icky.
She wasn't sure whether she believed in Santa Claus, and her memories
were like those of most little girls, revolving around events in her
home and with the neighbor kids, and she especially remembered her
fourth birthday party (birthdays are great!) when grandma came to
visit all the way from... someplace far away.

When Alice turned sixteen, playing with dolls was long since pass? and
boys were the most important focus of her life.  She didn't believe in
Santa Claus, but she believed very strongly that anyone should be
allowed to do whatever they want, as long as they don't hurt anyone
else, and she really really really wished people would leave her
alone!  Her memories were mostly of friends and social events over the
last several years, but she didn't remember a lot about her early
childhood years.

When Alice was twenty-six, she was very active in her local chapter of
United World, and it frustrated her to no end how people were so blind
to the importance, rather the necessity, of being involved and working
together for a common cause. Her memories were full of momentous world
events and she could hardly remember being the sixteen year old who so
often said "leave me alone" when people offered to help.

At thirty-six, Alice couldn't understand how people could find time
for idealistic dreams like "saving the world" when she and her husband
had their hands more than full with two jobs, two mortgages and two
kids.  She believed strongly that family (especially the children)
comes first, and that free time was among the most valuable things in
the universe.  She had fond memories of being sixteen, when life was
so simple and free.

<Skip ahead fifty years>

At eighty-six, Alice and her partner stayed almost entirely at home
due to the ongoing bioterrorist threats. It wasn't so bad though, and
in fact she was more active and involved than ever before using the
latest telepresence technology. It allowed her to be in more than one
place at the same time, and while her multiple projects were very
important to her, even with mental augmentation she sometimes felt she
might explode from all the in-rushing information. Being so plugged
into the net it was often hard to discern where "Alice" ended and the
rest of the world began, and she could "remember" almost anything
instantly.

<Skip ahead fifty years>

On their one hundred thirty-sixth birthday Alice's variants and
doubles noted their anniversary in passing but were much too engaged
with multiples of projects to choose to allocate an attentional
resource branch for a dedicated celebration. AlicePrime would have
wanted it that way, and it's not like anyone's going to forget
anything these days.


From aiguy at comcast.net  Tue Apr  1 02:19:29 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:19:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com><62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com><015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <008701c8939e$d136e250$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>

Eliezer said: >>
 
Right now, we *should* have an upper bound of $5 on gas because everyone
knows it's possible to just build more nuclear power plants and synthesize
fuel from atmospheric carbon.  But, in fact, we don't live in that world.

China should be building one nuclear power plant per day using their foreign
exchange surplus - after the rich West paid to do the design work, and
standardized the plant manufacturing.  Instead, China is building one coal
plant every 4 days.

>>

My Response:

China is slated to build 15 Nuclear plants over the next 15 years with
Westinghouse,

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06351/746789-28.stm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_40/b3953066.htm


That's certainly not the 1 every 4 days like the coal fire plants but my
guess is the nuclear plants will outproduce them by a wide margin.

And from what China learns from the construction of the first 4 that
Westinghouse is building now, I bet they start building their own as quickly
as they can copy the blueprints and set up a supply chain.



From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 02:24:04 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:24:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <fc5ce48b121b1.47f15674@insightbb.com>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" <sentience at pobox.com>
Date: Monday, March 31, 2008 20:33
Subject: Re: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear 
> power 
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling 
> in 
> government.
> 
> As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon 
> emissions 
> from coal plants that should never have been built.

So in other words - environmentalism causes global warming..... :-P
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 02:28:31 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:28:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>


I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I just thought I would pass this on.

http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html

Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 

(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.
Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from Hood River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 
But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady loosely known as colony collapse disorder. 
In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees gone and presumed dead. 
The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny mite that infests bees. 
But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 
Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting next week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee health and pollinators in Oregon. 
Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early in this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of Agricultural Sciences. 
But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the health of bees. 
Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so its extension service could expand the services of its insect identification laboratory. 
In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its research positions is through endowments created with the help of private donors and supportive industries. 
For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed professorship focused on hazelnut research. 
Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria, said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 
Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 
"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be focused on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 
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From aiguy at comcast.net  Tue Apr  1 03:07:02 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:07:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <008801c893a5$76086e10$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>

John K. Clarke Said:

>> Maybe solar energy could someday make a dent in the problem, but the
technology just isn't there yet. Right now it would take a solar panel the
size New Jersey to replace the energy dispensed by just 100 gas stations.
There are about 20,000 gas stations in the USA alone. >>


My Response:

I think solar is making breakthroughs much faster now than most of us
realize.

The solar market grew 62% in 2007 and it remained capacity constrained due
to a shortage of polysilicon.

But over 21 new entrants started manufacturing polysilicon during the year.

So this constraint will be lifted in 2008 going forward.

http://www.eetimes.eu/206904401

High cost is being tackled on many fronts.

And MIT has just announced a solar startup that aims to match coal in price.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=207000381

"The cell architecture, developed at MIT, improves surface texture and
metallization to improve silicon solar cell efficiency from about 15 percent
to 19 percent, while lowering costs. 

1366 Technologies said it plans licensing its technology to solar companies
and government agencies and thus accelerate a transition from fossil fuel
based energy to solar. In addition, the company plans to build industrial,
100 megawatt plants around the world. 

"The science is understood, the raw materials are abundant and the products
work. All that is left to do is innovate in manufacturing and scale up
volume production, and thats just what we intend to do," said Sachs, in a
statement. 
"

It looks like the Free Market may be arriving just in time!

By making this technology available to other companies to continue to
innovate and improve upon using other efficiency increasing and cost
lowering technology, this technolgy and competition to improve upon it
should spread quickly.

As for the real estate taken up by solar farms, once the technology becomes
cheap enough to put on our roofs with a reasonable payback period, look for
new houses to start being energy self sufficient and perhaps even selling
their excess back to the power companies.

The company Nanosolar that offers low priced thin film solar cells is
already sold out of product until 2009.

"Their new $100,000,000 plant will produce Nanosolar SolarPly, its flagship
building-integrated product that acts as a solar-electric "carpet" for
integration with commercial roofing membranes; and Nanosolar Utiliscale, a
product specifically designed for large-scale, ground-mounted plant
installations."

http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/edn.htm




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 03:10:54 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:10:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804010312.m313CXqu022032@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

On Behalf Of Kevin Freels

	Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
	
	

	I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately.
I just thought I would pass this on.
	 
	http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html
	 
	Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
	Sponsored Links 
	 
	(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics
will help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee
population that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.
	Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops...




Ja, thanks Kevin.  I am one of these Oregon farmers.  Well, sorta.  I still
make my actual living at rocket science, and just dump money into the farm.
I feel sorry for the few that are dependent upon their farms for actual
income.  Seems that in our country in our times, anyone who farms must have
a paying job elsewhere in order to support their farming habit.

I did some more thinking about the bugwatcher website.  We could gather data
from volunteers in a skerjillion different places, then estimate the amount
of reduction from normal bee populations.  This year my reduction is two
orders of magnitude here: the bee population is about 1% of what I expect.
We could get bug population estimates, perhaps via instruments (buzzmeters?)
and then map populations with respect to location.  Then connect similar
population levels like a contour map, the lines being isobees.  That could
help determine how localized are the colony collapses.

Are there other bugwatchers out there?

spike





spike





From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr  1 04:55:14 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:55:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <552780.81939.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<f7bfe5740803281001l7ee92bbbsf5bc57f1c4da531a@mail.gmail.com>	<f7bfe5740803281009h5b4b80e4td181d61e971b7700@mail.gmail.com>	<00d301c892d7$57db8f90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<f7bfe5740803310741i2e4dff17k80f395646e3eed49@mail.gmail.com>	<019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA61CBB507F00E-1518-34C3@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>



 





 



As things seem to have become a bit fuzzy and I can't work out who is arguing what at the moment. And Just so I can understand where everyone is coming from. I was wondering how much everyone differs in answering the following. (My answers are at the bottom for reference)



1) Are single egg, Identical twins the same 'self'? If not, at what point did they diverge? cell division, birth etc



2) If through some boredom induced, drunken shenanigans you sew a donor hand to the top of your head, Is it part of the 'Self'? Does this depend on its functionality?

?

3) When neural spell checks and dictionary chips become available (hopefully soon)and if you get one fitted, Is it part of the 'self'?. What if it is unplug able?



4) Can a external viewer quantify 'self'? or can it only be truly known by the individual?



5) Are the language constraints of the notion 'Self' to flexible, rigid or indeterminate to be useful in this context? Do we need new terminology or subclasses of 'self' to get to the bottom of the Upload arguments?











My Answers

1) Twins are not the same self, although they were at conception. However the term self at that point is not really applicable as it somehow implies sentience, which clearly is not the case. I would say that the twins develop 'self' somewhere around the point where they would be classed as viable. And at the point of birth they would most definitely be different 'selves' despite being genetically identical, virtually physically identical and presumably comparable in memories.



2) The hand would be part of the 'self' from the moment of attachment, but for some It might not be considered so unless it is in some way functional. such as receiving sensory input from it, or being able to exert control of it.



3)I would consider any internal device such as these part of the self. But It wouldn't be so clear for an external or removable device. I wouldn't consider Fyborg devices like glasses to be in the self, but a prosthetic arm may well be. A bit contradicting when applied to the human state, but in the case of an upload, these devices it would not be absolutely necessary to include them for the self to be successfully included in the upload.



4) No, an external viewer can't quantify self as they have no access to it. Self is an observation made by the internal viewer only. An external viewer can only quantify 'You' or 'them', as such all equivalent versions of 'you' are acceptable but each individual can only quantify 'self' for themselves.



5)It would seem so, judging from the arguments. Self would be a singular concept, where only one could ever exist at a time. That self being the internal viewpoint of the individual. If another entity is spawned from the first, They both have separate self's from the point of separation. They would each be valid? versions of 'you' as per answer 4.
I am me, I am 'self', but to you, I is you, and me is you and you are 'self'. Its just a language trick.
So continuity of the 'self' can only be judged from the internal view and 'self' only relates to the continuity argument. When we start talking in terms of an identical copy, self no longer applies except to each individuals internal view of themselves, not their view of each other. So any perfect copy could be validly called 'Alex Blainey' but 'self' would be individual to each instance, each having a right to exist. The self could be transferred, but never copied.



Alex




________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr  1 04:56:58 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:56:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331202743.05da6598@satx.rr.com>
	<fc67f50311cd7.47f1577f@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>


 Are we just talking honey bee's here? or are all bee types in decline?


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 3:28
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem











I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I just thought I would pass this on.


?


http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html


?


Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 


?


(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.


Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from Hood River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 


But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady loosely known as colony collapse disorder. 


In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees gone and presumed dead. 


The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny mite that infests bees. 


But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 


Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting next week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee health and pollinators in Oregon. 


Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early in this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of Agricultural Sciences. 


But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the health of bees. 


Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so its extension service could expand the services of its insect identification laboratory. 


In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its research positions is through endowments created with the help of private donors and supportive industries. 


For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed professorship focused on hazelnut research. 


Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria, said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 


Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 


"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be focused on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 



 





_______________________________________________
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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



 


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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 05:19:09 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:19:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Are we just talking honey bee's here? or are all bee types in decline?

 
Excellent question, Al.  I don't know.  I haven't seen any dying bumblebees
or any other types of bugs perishing, which counter-indicates a pesticide.
The leading theory I understand is CCD is caused by a virus carried by mites
other than varroa mites.  Damn.  We are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.
 
We are starting an offlist group, analogous to the M-Brain group we had a
few years ago.  A couple of hipsters have contacted me who know from
internet protocols better than I.  Hell, the bees know more from internet
protocols than I.  Understatement!  The POLLEN knows more from...
 
Al, do you want to be part of the spinoff bee discussion offlist?  Anyone
else?  Or would the rest of you want to just have us post highlights here?
I am looking for advice or help designing a website that is a little like
the earthquake site the USGS set up.  In that one, any time you feel a
tremor, you log on and tell them where you live and how much shaking you
felt.  They can estimate a magnitude and location within minutes.
 
http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/shake/ca/
 
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsus/
 
Wicked cool, ja?  Ain't it fun being alive and internet hip in 2008?  {8-]  
 
I want a bee version of these sites, where I can map epicenters of colony
collapse.  I am told I need a domain name?
 
spike   
 
 


  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
ablainey at aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 9:57 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Bee Problem


Are we just talking honey bee's here? or are all bee types in decline?



-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 3:28
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem



I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I just
thought I would pass this on.
 
http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html
 
Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 
 
(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will
help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population
that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.
Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from Hood
River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 
But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate
crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady
loosely known as colony collapse disorder. 
In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees
gone and presumed dead. 
The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny
mite that infests bees. 
But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State
University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural
research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 
Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting next
week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee
health and pollinators in Oregon. 
Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early in
this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of
Agricultural Sciences. 
But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the health
of bees. 
Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so its
extension service could expand the services of its insect identification
laboratory. 
In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its research
positions is through endowments created with the help of private donors and
supportive industries. 
For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed
professorship focused on hazelnut research. 
Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria,
said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his
crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 
Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his
production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 
"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be focused
on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 
_______________________________________________


extropy-chat mailing list


extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


  _____  

AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour
<http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/>  now. 

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From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr  1 06:07:49 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 02:07:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <005201c893be$e5482900$b0f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com>

> The free market in the USA? How free is that free market?

Freer than most, not nearly as free as it should be.

spike wrote:

>Halliburton is up to no good?  What did they do?  Why are they in the
> same class with Enron the criminal gang?

You responded with:

<http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Civilians_testify_to_Halliburton_fraud%2C_coercion>

Damien, I read your link but frankly I am not impressed. It's a fact that
there are not many organizations that can provide the services that
Halliburton can and do so in a war zone, and so they charge accordingly. I
can't see where they did anything Enron level bad much less committed a
government grade horror. I'm not saying Halliburton is incapable of being
a little naughty from time to time, but compared with routine government
grade evil it's a little like a prison guard at Auschwitz raging about the
injustice of it all because somebody put a whoopee cushion on his chair.

  John K Clark






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 06:22:04 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:22:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401011907.0241df00@satx.rr.com>

At 10:19 PM 3/31/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

>I want a bee version of these sites, where I can map epicenters of 
>colony collapse.  I am told I need a domain name?

The following name would be ideal for an Aussie site but probably 
nowhere else on the planet, alas:

bee-buggered.com

Damien Broderick
(jes messin witch uh, doncha no]




From amara at amara.com  Tue Apr  1 05:56:57 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:56:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  The Bee Problem
Message-ID: <p06230901c4177eff2cc5@[192.168.0.66]>


Dear Spike,

A friend of mine returned from Arizona carrying a large jar of local honey;
she told me that there was no decline in the bees in Arizona.

spike spike66 at att.net :

>I am looking for advice or help designing a website that is a little like
>the earthquake site the USGS set up.

Google Maps might help:

http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2000/02/astronomical-observatories-on-google.html
(look at the comments too)

Amara
-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Apr  1 06:32:37 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:32:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>


 Interesting, I'd also like to know if this is worldwide or America's specific.You said 'We 
are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.'  I can see this being a definite problem if all bee types are declining. but what if other species like solitary bee's, bumble etc are not effected? These and other pollinators might increase in number to fill the gap?
I don't think I currently have time for the offlist group, but I would be interested in the highlights and I like the website idea.
loosely related to the subject there is a movie coming out soon where some unknown natural disaster starts to kill off everyone, the first indicators of something going on is the dramatic decline in bee numbers (or so it would seem from the trailer). It's called 'The Happening'. I'm not sure how much of a part the bees play. probably minimal, probably just the usual science to fiction link to make the story more credible.

Alex


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 6:19
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Bee Problem














Are we just talking honey bee's 
here? or are all bee types in decline?



?


Excellent question, Al.? I don't know.? I haven't 
seen any dying bumblebees or any other types of bugs perishing, which 
counter-indicates a pesticide.? The leading theory I understand is CCD is 
caused by a virus carried by mites other than varroa mites.? Damn.? We 
are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.


?


We are starting an offlist group, analogous to the M-Brain 
group we had a few years ago.? A couple of?hipsters have contacted me 
who know from?internet protocols better than I.? Hell, the bees know 
more from internet protocols than I.? Understatement!? The POLLEN 
knows more from...


?


Al, do you want to be part of the spinoff bee discussion 
offlist?? Anyone else?? Or would the rest of you want to just have us 
post highlights here?? I am looking for advice or help designing a 
website?that is a little?like the earthquake site the USGS set 
up.? In that one, any time you feel a tremor, you log on and?tell them 
where you live and how much shaking you felt.? They can estimate a 
magnitude and location within minutes.


?


http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/shake/ca/


?


http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsus/


?


Wicked cool, ja?? Ain't it fun being alive and 
internet hip in 2008?? {8-]? 


?


I want a bee version of these sites, where I can map 
epicenters of?colony collapse.? I am told I need 
a domain name?


?


spike???


?


?




  

  


  From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
  [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
  ablainey at aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 9:57 
  PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] 
  The Bee Problem



  


  
Are we just talking honey bee's 
  here? or are all bee types in decline?


  



  


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Freels 
  <kevinfreels at insightbb.com>
To: ExI chat list 
  <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 
  3:28
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem


  

  

I've seen a few of you mention the declining bee population lately. I 
  just thought I would pass this on.

  
?

  
http://www.physorg.com/news126203432.html

  
?

  
Ore. Farmers Press for More Bee Research
Sponsored Links 

  
?

  
(AP) -- Oregon farmers are hoping that the state's premier academics will 
  help them figure out what is causing a sudden decline in the bee population 
  that's hitting home in the Pacific Northwest.

  
Bees are critical for the pollination of signature Oregon crops, from 
  Hood River Valley pears to coastal cranberries. 

  
But commercial bee colonies that travel around the country to pollinate 
  crops have been decimated in the past few years by a mysterious malady loosely 
  known as colony collapse disorder. 

  
In many cases, beekeepers have found their hives suddenly empty, the bees 
  gone and presumed dead. 

  
The disorder has been linked to a virus that can be transmitted by a tiny 
  mite that infests bees. 

  
But little is known about the cause of the disorder. And Oregon State 
  University, the state's land-grant university that supports agricultural 
  research, no longer has a full-time professor focused on bees. 

  
Growers, beekeepers and others around the state are holding a meeting 
  next week in Corvallis to make the case for increased research into honey bee 
  health and pollinators in Oregon. 

  
Oregon State cut back faculty positions as state funding decreased early 
  in this decade, said Stella Coakley, associate dean in OSU's College of 
  Agricultural Sciences. 

  
But she said college officials recognize the rising concern about the 
  health of bees. 

  
Coakley told The Oregonian that Oregon State has located some funding so 
  its extension service could expand the services of its insect identification 
  laboratory. 

  
In the past, the main way Oregon State has been able to expand its 
  research positions is through endowments created with the help of private 
  donors and supportive industries. 

  
For example, the hazelnut industry in Oregon created an endowed 
  professorship focused on hazelnut research. 

  
Robert Whannell, who cultivates 25 acres of cranberries south of Astoria, 
  said the beekeeper from Washington who usually brings bees to pollinate his 
  crop lost 4,000 hives' worth of bees this winter out of 13,000 total hives. 
  

  
Without the extra bees to pollinate his cranberries, Whannell said his 
  production would probably drop 70 percent to 80 percent. 

  
"We're hoping this is going to be a wake-up call that we need to be 
  focused on this issue that affects the whole food chain," Whannell said. 
  


  

_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



  

  


  AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour now. 



 





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



 


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 06:34:11 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:34:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <005201c893be$e5482900$b0f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<005201c893be$e5482900$b0f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401012257.024bdec0@satx.rr.com>

At 02:07 AM 4/1/2008 -0400, JKC wrote:

>You responded with:
>
><http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Civilians_testify_to_Halliburton_fraud%2C_coercion>

No I didn't. I responded with:

e.g.:
<http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Civilians_testify_to_Halliburton_fraud%2C_coercion>

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

>Damien, I read your link

The link which you mysteriously deleted (for which I make no 
warranty## ) is replete with further links.

Damien Broderick

##They might be lying fiends from hell for all I know. Here's their 
self-description:

< Oil Change is being founded in order to network together, 
encourage, and compliment a diversity of strategies and tactics 
around the oil industry. We are a research and advocacy organization 
that exists to force progress in the energy industry towards an 
environmentally and socially sustainable energy future. We achieve 
this by: being a consistent and credible source of information on the 
industry; using our knowledge of the industry to craft strategic, 
incisive campaigns; and by working with people around the world who 
are committed to shifting power.

Oil Change International organizes to unite allies, campaigns to 
divide opponents, and conducts research to expose hidden truths and 
trends towards overcoming each of these barriers.

Oil Change International is a 501 c 3 organization. Donations are 
fully tax deductible. We encourage you to donate via our online 
server, however if you prefer, you can send a check to: Oil Change 
International, 2228 12th Pl., NW, Washington DC, 20009.>

Here's their staff:

<http://priceofoil.org/about/staff/>

Oh no! Several Greenpeace veterans! A member of Rotary!





From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 08:02:50 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 01:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <647399.86023.qm@web65407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> Not me, I agree with the quote. Whatever is going to replace oil it
> will
> need to be HUGE, absolutely ENORMOUS! Wind farms and tidal energy
> just don't make the grade. Maybe solar energy could someday make a
> dent in the problem, but the technology just isn't there yet. Right
> now
> it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
> dispensed by just 100 gas stations. There are about 20,000 gas
> stations
> in the USA alone. And yes, I've heard of solar power satellites, but
> are
> you so confident that the idea will be economically and ecologically
> feasible that you would be willing to invest your entire life savings
> into
> the idea and be prepared to live on the streets if it failed? I'm
> not.

Why not? If you go down with the oil and internal combustion industry
ship, you will be on the streets any way. Some chance of avoiding
famine and the horrors of starvation is better than no chance. We are
stuck in a Malthusian trap plain and simple. We have gotten out of
these before and we can do it again, as long as we have the collective
will, freedom of action, and investment capital. But the solution won't
be a single technology or fit into a single sound bite. It will be a
lot of little things. Things like generating electricity from methane
bioreactors at sewage treatment plants and land fills, solar-steam 
farms, lots of nuclear power, and stirling-engine automobiles.   
  

> And I'm all for making things more efficient, but that's not going to
> solve
> the problem either, efficiency just makes energy cheaper, thus people
> will
> use more of it.

Yes this is the over-arching long-term problem. Going from hunter
gatherer to agrarian gave us some ecological slack that we subsequently
lost by overbreeding. Same thing happened when we made the agrarian to
industrial transition. If we escape from this one trap there is another
one on the horizon. So we best make best use of whatever time we buy to
find another habitable world. If we just breed to capacity again, we
really are screwed.

> You can fantasize about nuclear fusion (hot or cold) or vacuum zero
> point
> energy all you want but the cold hard reality is that right now only
> 5
> technologies have the potential to replace oil. All of them would
> give Green
> Party tree huggers a tizzy fit (but then everything gives them a
> tizzy fit);
> and none of them are exactly cheap, except perhaps the last if we did
> it
> just right. They are:
> 
> 1) Coal
> 2) Tar Sands
> 3) Oil Shale
> 4) Methane clathrate, (the least developed technology)
> 5) Nuclear Fission

Well if this is the case, we should be cajoling and bribing the
automotive industry to shrug off the death-grip of the oil industry and
start building stirling-electric hybrid automobiles. These things would
run off of batteries until the stirling engine got hot enough to start
recharching them with a generator. They could be set up to work with
ANY heat source. Burning coal, wood chips, cow-dung, even uranium fuel
rods. Either that or get ready to drag the steam engines back out.


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 10:57:28 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:57:28 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.873.1206798163.690.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F16644.7070100@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804010357y3693269ibda59a10333c455b@mail.gmail.com>

On 01/04/2008, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:

>  I don't see why people who make statements like this think they are
>  saying something reasonable. "If you get copied EXACTLY, then one of the
>  copies won't mind being killed" !?!?!
>
>  Why on earth would anyone think this?
>
>  I do think that an identical copy of my mind would be me, ('a me', if
>  you like), and i'm sure that none of the me's would be happy (or
>  relaxed, or indifferent) to be killed.
>
>  I remember reading a short story in which people start committing
>  suicide after the discovery that the multiple-worlds interpretation is
>  in fact true, and everyone has an infinite number of versions of them in
>  an infinite number of universes. I also remember thinking that this
>  story _makes no sense_. Would YOU commit suicide just because you knew
>  for a fact that there was another you somewhere? It's just a daft idea.

Well, I'll put my hand up to join the daft. If there were two copies
of me, A and B, *running in perfect lockstep*, let's say in
deterministic parallel computations, then I don't see what possible
difference it could make to me (that is, either one of the me's) if
one of the copies suddenly stopped.

Suppose I am copy A. At time T, the machine running A is turned off
while the machine running copy B continues. If you think that I, copy
A, don't survive the procedure consider this alternative scenario.
There is only one copy of me running on a particular machine. At time
T, the computation is saved to disk and the machine turned off. The
saved data is then loaded into another machine running the same
program, which therefore starts off at the point where the first
machine was stopped. Will I survive this procedure or will I die where
the computation is stopped and saved? Because this situation is
exactly equivalent to copy A stopping while copy B continues.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 11:37:20 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:37:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804010437u7de5855fyc0d6216b996a6b11@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:52 AM, <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

>  That occurred to to afterward, but it makes you wonder what if anything
> the parents would do about it? After all, they are the ones that have been
> responsible for the moral education of these young un's. Haven't they done
> well so far !.Likewise I think the law is flaccid when it comes to this kind
> of behaviour in kids this age. Teachers are no longer allowed to deal out
> discipline and even parents are limited and watched like hawks under the
> guise of 'protecting kids from abuse'.
> I am truly worried for the next generation of '*I want it now, you cant do
> nuffin, I am the centre of the universe' *kids. They clearly have their
> heads up their owns arses and have no respect for anyone or anything. At
> least we had respect and a healthy dose of fear.
> Very troubling indeed.
>

The truth is that "I am the center of the universe, you can't do nothing"
attitude may well work with parents or teachers, legally and psychologically
inhibited from doing anything about it. It does not work at all, however,
with *peers* who may find themselves below the age for criminal liability,
and that in any event even without major breach of the law can and will do
indeed much when faced with the attitude, and are bound to dispell any such
delusion very soon.

Stefano
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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:02:21 2008
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:02:21 -0300
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>

John Clark> You can fantasize about nuclear fusion (hot or cold) or vacuum 
zero point
> energy all you want but the cold hard reality is that right now only 5
> technologies have the potential to replace oil. All of them would give 
> Green
> Party tree huggers a tizzy fit (but then everything gives them a tizzy 
> fit);
> and none of them are exactly cheap, except perhaps the last if we did it
> just right. They are:
> 1) Coal
> 2) Tar Sands
> 3) Oil Shale
> 4) Methane clathrate, (the least developed technology)
> 5) Nuclear Fission

What about geothermal? The hot bed geothermal seems simple enough and very 
feasible. I simply can't understand the fact that we are sitting on a 
fireball the size of the Earth and yet we don't try a bit harder to use it's 
power. 



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:21:20 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:21:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804010521j31f85ef7tb39d3a2ebae4c411@mail.gmail.com>

Good news for Spike!

<http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218393082>

Doctors who treat patients with cancer have a balancing act. They give
too little chemotherapy and tumors survive, but too much can be life
threatening. Now researchers have found that in a series of lab tests,
not eating for 48 hours gave healthy cells an edge. University of
Southern California Associate Professor of Gerontology and Biological
Science Valter Longo says, "The cancer cells have this oncogene, have
these mutations that keep them always on. So, they basically are
unable to obey the starvation dependent order. Starvation tells
[healthy cells] to go into protective mode. The cancer cells, because
of their characteristics of not being able to respond to that, just
continue on their normal pro-growth track."
etc..........


PNAS Abstract
<http://www.pnas.org/cgi/gca?allch=&SEARCHID=1&AUTHOR1=longo&FULLTEXT=chemotherapy&gca=pnas%3B0708100105v1>

Strategies to treat cancer have focused primarily on the killing of
tumor cells. Here, we describe a differential stress resistance (DSR)
method that focuses instead on protecting the organism but not cancer
cells against chemotherapy. Short-term starved S. cerevisiae or cells
lacking proto-oncogene homologs were up to 1,000 times better
protected against oxidative stress or chemotherapy drugs than cells
expressing the oncogene homolog Ras2val19. Low-glucose or low-serum
media also protected primary glial cells but not six different rat and
human glioma and neuroblastoma cancer cell lines against hydrogen
peroxide or the chemotherapy drug/pro-oxidant cyclophosphamide.
Finally, short-term starvation provided complete protection to mice
but not to injected neuroblastoma cells against a high dose of the
chemotherapy drug/pro-oxidant etoposide. These studies describe a
starvation-based DSR strategy to enhance the efficacy of chemotherapy
and suggest that specific agents among those that promote oxidative
stress and DNA damage have the potential to maximize the differential
toxicity to normal and cancer cells.
--------------------------------


Further research required (of course), but it looks like 48 hours
starvation before chemotherapy helps the chemo to attack the cancer
cells more than normal cells.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:39:25 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:39:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804010539q6f9229bcsa612d0f17e5874c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky <sentience at pobox.com>
wrote:

> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in
> government.
>

Not to mention simple inertia and short-sightedness. It gives one pause to
consider that eventually to establish the ITER project, for a total cost of
less than *one fiftieth* - if I am not mistaken - of the last Iraq party, it
has taken a decade and a joint-venture amongst ten different major
government.

Things have changed a lot, and not always for the best, since the era of
Project Manhattan, Project Apollo, Project Human Genome, and so forth. And
sponsorship of fundamental research in Europe is becoming a joke, a footnote
in governmental budgets, while researchers are being starved,as Amara knows
only too well, to the advantage of bankers, brokers, managers and their
fashion stylists. :-(

Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 12:47:31 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:47:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <580930c20804010547l7135618cpfe94e81d7f1d8990@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> Maybe solar energy could someday make a
> dent in the problem, but the technology just isn't there yet. Right now
> it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
> dispensed by just 100 gas stations.


I am not sure this is a technological issue. All in all, as real estate
agents are fond of saying, square meters are the only thing that is
impossible to manufacture.

Thus, solar energy is by definition not sustainable, even without taking
into account different kinds of pollution and environmental damage related
to its extensive development. At the limit, they jury may rather still be
out for solar energy collected in space. But I still believe that if fusion
is the way most of energy is produced in the universe, it only makes sense
to engineer the process directly, and on the scale required, for our own
necessities.

Stefano Vaj
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 15:09:51 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 09:09:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>

The problem children you describe are not representative of the entire 
generation. I assure you that there are many good kids out there and 
they far outnumber the evil little devils described here. However, you 
are right that this is changing. Educated people are not having children 
at the same rate as the grown-up versions of these problem children. 
These kids are going out, getting pregnant at 14-19 years old, having 
several children. They are unable to guide them and nurture them into 
responsible lives so they repeat the cycle. Meanwhile, those who are 
well educated go on to college, get a career started and then MAY have 1 
or 2 children when they are over 25.

There is some good here though. Fortunately I happen to believe that 
much of "natural" behavior is genetic and that children will only 
unlearn those traits through conditioning. The underlying genetic 
behavior then would remain to be passed on. So there are still good kids 
that come out of bad homes and vice versa. In the end, I'm not sure it's 
enough to stop this trend completely, but it at least can slow it. What 
we educated folks need to do now is have more babies.(This should save 
many economies from disaster as well but that's another topic)



ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> That occurred to to afterward, but it makes you wonder what if 
> anything the parents would do about it? After all, they are the ones 
> that have been responsible for the moral education of these young 
> un's. Haven't they done well so far !.Likewise I think the law is 
> flaccid when it comes to this kind of behaviour in kids this age. 
> Teachers are no longer allowed to deal out discipline and even parents 
> are limited and watched like hawks under the guise of 'protecting kids 
> from abuse'.
> I am truly worried for the next generation of '/I want it now, you 
> cant do nuffin, I am the centre of the universe' /kids. They clearly 
> have their heads up their owns arses and have no respect for anyone or 
> anything. At least we had respect and a healthy dose of fear.
> Very troubling indeed.
>
> Alex
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:10
> Subject: Re: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
>
> On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 6:06 PM,  <ablainey at aol.com <mailto:ablainey at aol.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> >  ...I caught a 10 year old kid scrumping apples from one of my trees.
>
>
>
> > He shouted 'Yeah F at ck @ff, You can't do
>
> > anything you F at cking C at nt!!!' The whole group then started shouting words
>
> > they shouldn't know and started throwing stones at my windows!
>
>
>
>
>
> Interesting.
>
>
>
> I wonder if you could make a video of their behavior and then post it
>
> to you tube and my space/facebook.
>
>
>
> And then send a heads up to their parents, though you might not have to.
>
>
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> extropy-chat mailing list
>
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour 
> <http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/> now.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 14:56:38 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:56:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804010521j31f85ef7tb39d3a2ebae4c411@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0804010521j31f85ef7tb39d3a2ebae4c411@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804010756g181cb5bke7d9b6078f83f612@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:21 PM, BillK wrote:
> Good news for Spike!
>
>  <http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218393082>
>


I've just realised that my comment could be misinterpreted.

I didn't mean to imply that Spike is getting chemotherapy!   Never!

I just meant that because Spike already does calorie restriction, in
the unlikely event that he ever does need chemo, then he has a head
start over everyone else.


BillK


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Tue Apr  1 14:50:08 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 10:50:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>

Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:
> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
> government.

The fact that you would be so factually ignorant and irrational as to 
talk about "anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling" is a bad sign 
indeed.

Someone who is irrational is a problem.

Someone who is irrational and claims "rationalism" as the justification 
for their dogmatic beliefs is sinister.

What is even more ridiculous, for me, is that your conclusions about 
nuclear power are not, by themselves, inaccurate.  But linking that 
analysis to a statement about "anti-rationalist environmentalist 
meddling" betrays an inability to understand the system as a whole.

For example, one side effect of the nuclear resurgence now taking place 
is that the proliferation problem is quietly diversifying into new and 
terrifying directions:

http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn13459-disposable-nuclear-reactors-raise-security-fears.html

It is news such as this that makes it seem that those "anti-rationalist 
environmentalists" may have been correct in saying that nuclear power is 
managed so irresponsibly that, in practice, it has world-threatening 
side effects.

The issue, then, is whether nuclear power and renewable sources can be 
developed in such a tightly controlled and secure manner that the 
considerable dangers of nuclear power can be kept under control.



Richard Loosemore


From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr  1 15:42:29 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:42:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>

 "Henrique Moraes Machado" <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>

> What about geothermal? 

It might be interesting if you live in Iceland, but most of us don't.

  John K Clark






From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 17:03:09 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 11:03:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com> <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>



Richard Loosemore wrote:
> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:
>   
>> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
>> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
>> government.
>>     
>
> The fact that you would be so factually ignorant and irrational as to 
> talk about "anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling" is a bad sign 
> indeed.
>
> Someone who is irrational is a problem.
>
> Someone who is irrational and claims "rationalism" as the justification 
> for their dogmatic beliefs is sinister.
>
> What is even more ridiculous, for me, is that your conclusions about 
> nuclear power are not, by themselves, inaccurate.  But linking that 
> analysis to a statement about "anti-rationalist environmentalist 
> meddling" betrays an inability to understand the system as a whole.
>
> For example, one side effect of the nuclear resurgence now taking place 
> is that the proliferation problem is quietly diversifying into new and 
> terrifying directions:
>
> http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn13459-disposable-nuclear-reactors-raise-security-fears.html
>
> It is news such as this that makes it seem that those "anti-rationalist 
> environmentalists" may have been correct in saying that nuclear power is 
> managed so irresponsibly that, in practice, it has world-threatening 
> side effects.
>
> The issue, then, is whether nuclear power and renewable sources can be 
> developed in such a tightly controlled and secure manner that the 
> considerable dangers of nuclear power can be kept under control.
>
>
>   
It appears this has already been addressed. Here's a great article on 
Pebble Bed Modular Reactors which eliminate many of the concerns you have.
http://www.physorg.com/news8956.html

The only thing I can't seem to find info on is the energy cost and 
processes used to make the pebbles in the first place.
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:10:23 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:10:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804010910n26139dc1kee677dff3eefcbb4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> This looks to me like another ideological kneejerk. PJ's point (I
> believe) is that what people seem to refer to as the US free market
> is generally--I might prefer "frequently" and "importantly" NOT A
> FREE MARKET but (read her lips) "government/corporate collusion."

There are some on this list who could use a little femoral nerve
deadening right around their patella.  Stop looking for commies under
my bed, Lee.  All you'll find there are dust bunnies.

Thank you, Damien, for responding while I was out: yes, my point is
not advocating a specific replacement.  I'm not sure that a
hierarchical system of human governance is capable of truly free
markets, since corruption seems to be the flip side of humanity's
managerial coin.  There were kickbacks, secret deals, war profiteering
and manipulation of the populace in Mesopotamia.  Today is just more
of the same on a grander scale.

My original statement is a recognition that in my particular political
culture, there's no free market and most likely won't be any time
soon, since 1) the military-industrial-congressional complex
(Eisenhower's original phrase before Congress twisted his arm to drop
'congressional' before his famously observant farewell broadcast) is
alive and well and the basis of the US economy; 2) the only people in
corporate or governmental America I see loudly touting free markets
with their blowhorns are those who take advantage of the fact of its
absence -- meaning what they call the creation of such are anything
but; 3) the revolving door from industry to government and back again
ensures that corporate agendas are the government's priority until
citizens yell loudly enough and sometimes, not even then; and 4) the
people who make the laws are the people who benefit from them and visa
versa.  And that ain't you 'n me, buster.

The bigger problem is that the populace doesn't care enough to look.
If you want to spend some time dumpster diving, the Transactional
Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University tracks federal
expenditures.  You'll see where your money really goes, if you can
read between the lines:
http://trac.syr.edu/
Here's a sample summary report on the Dept. of Homeland Security:
http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/178/
Sadly the Pentagon's expenditures (the lion's share of tax money) are
not a part of the project.  What a report that would be.

Finally, the populace doesn't like to feel like a schmuck.  So it's
human nature to bury our heads in the sand or cling to the sinking
mast of outdated political ideologies promoted by our leaders.

None of this is news.  It's simply reality.  As Deep Throat said,
"Follow the money."  Unfortunately, it's never been truer.  And
there's no magic wand to make that pesky aspect of human governance
irrelevant any time soon.  As long as money changes hands under the
proverbial table (or even over it, in the form of campaign
contributions), determining who sells what to whom and for how much,
your beloved free market is doomed.  As it always was.  Or perhaps a
better statement is that it never could exist; it was a mirage, a
figment in Homo economicus' idealized, ever-rational,
never-found-on-this-planet mind.

Wait a second... maybe that's why Lee and others like him are on a
transhumanist list... he wants us all to have a free market neural
transplant, so the dream of Homo economicus could become a reality!
Now if we could only find the part of the brain that governs free
markets...  ;-)

PJ


From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:11:21 2008
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:11:21 -0300
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <011a01c89413$07d04bc0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>



> "Henrique Moraes Machado" <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>
>
>> What about geothermal?
>
John Clark> It might be interesting if you live in Iceland, but most of us 
don't.

As I said, dry-hot-rock bed geothermal seems straightforward enough. You dig 
3 to 4 km till you reach a really hot rock. Pour water down and collect the 
vapour. No volcanoes or geisers needed (you build your own geiser). I've 
even posted a link some days ago. 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 16:10:36 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:10:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien writes

> At 03:11 PM 3/31/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>>[PJ:]
>> > BTW, Lee, in my research on government/corporate collusion, this
>> > behavior is the rule, not the exception.  So much for free markets.
>>
>>"So much for free markets"?  Perhaps you can point out a few cases
>>from history where some other system worked better to "distribute
>>scarce resources which have alternate uses".  [...]
>>So, PJ, given a free hand, just how would or should a replacement
>>for the market be devised?
> 
> This looks to me like another ideological kneejerk. PJ's point (I 
> believe) is that what people seem to refer to as the US free market 
> is generally--I might prefer "frequently" and "importantly" NOT A 
> FREE MARKET but (read her lips) "government/corporate collusion."

Well, if that's the true emphasis here, then thanks for pointing it
out. It follows that you all should announce yourselves as
"free market enthusiasts" and "free market proponents". You
should phrase your condemnation of the above as "government
interference and intrusion" in the workings of the free market,
or of free market capitalism.

But you never, never put it that way, do you?  Why is that?

No, it's *always* phrased by those with a history of left-leaning
politics as though something is wrong with the free-market itself,
as if somehow if we just perhaps elect people with the "right
stuff" they can take control and make everything right. Won't
happen, of course.

Okay---assuming for just a nanosecond that there is no problem
with language, and that you're not still all reeling consciously or
unconsciously from the demise of Communism and the proven
poverty-creating socialisms of one kind or another---just what
are your concrete proposals?

What about this one:  we must make an effort to REMOVE
as many laws as possible that interfere with truly free market
activity. Lobbyists fighting for government largess must be
countered, and the government power and wealth over which
they're fighting must not be taken from the people in the first
place.

I do realize, as you know from my last post, that such
a process must be gingerly applied, and that only gradually
can many government "oversight" functions be replaced by
voluntary ones. 

Just make it clear how you'd like things to move, instead of
just complaining.

Thanks,
Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 16:19:16 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:19:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <277310.58630.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01dd01c89414$30322ab0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Lee said
> 
>> [Concerning the following simple inquiry under the hypothesis
>> that a following a devastating plague, a certain "lunatic" now 
>> living in a mental institution in the U.S. who believes himself
>> to be the same person as Napoleon I of France, is the sole
>> survivor on Earth]
>>
>>      The Emperor Napoleon (1769- ), formerly of France, but
>>      now living in a certain city in the U.S., turned out to be the
>>      last living human on Earth?
>> 
>> Well, is that true or false? 
> 
> Sometimes matters don't divide up neatly into those two words.

Why, naturally, of course.  Haven't you heard that there are "shades
of gray"?  Or rather, perhaps you suppose that some of us have
never heard the phrase, or mastered the notion of a continuum.

But seriously, does this mean that you *also* do not lean one way
or another towards accepting or rejecting the above statement? 

> In fact, probably most of the time [matters don't divide up
> neatly into those two words].

Oh?  An assertion by you?  May I infer that you believe your assertion
to be true, or would that also fall into the category of things that cannot
be so simply characterized as "true" or "false"?

But then, there I go again.  Asking for yes or no....  :-)

Lee



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:30:15 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:30:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<003701c893f0$3f10f850$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<008701c8940f$07626b90$b8f14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804010930k54d35128n2ad925c79869eef3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:42 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
>  "Henrique Moraes Machado" <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>
>
> > What about geothermal?
>
> It might be interesting if you live in Iceland, but most of us don't.

They already do it there and did before 1972, when I was there with my
family watching Fisher beat Spassky.  To a seven year old girl from
NY, it was fascinating to be in buildings completely warmed by the
Earth back then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Iceland

However, there is a big movement in green construction to tap into
geothermal power anywhere.  Granted, this building was built by an
architect for himself as an example of what was possible (he died
unexpectedly a year after its completion and it's been sold since):

http://matrix.millersamuel.com/?p=376

I studied his plans and was astounded by the depth of the geothermal
tap, especially knowing what I do about the tunnel systems under
Manhattan.  It's amazing he was able to pull this off in this location
and that the City of NY supported him.

PJ


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Tue Apr  1 16:34:32 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 12:34:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com> <47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:
> 
> 
> Richard Loosemore wrote:

>> The issue, then, is whether nuclear power and renewable sources can be 
>> developed in such a tightly controlled and secure manner that the 
>> considerable dangers of nuclear power can be kept under control.
>>
> It appears this has already been addressed. Here's a great article on 
> Pebble Bed Modular Reactors which eliminate many of the concerns you have.
> http://www.physorg.com/news8956.html
> 
> The only thing I can't seem to find info on is the energy cost and 
> processes used to make the pebbles in the first place.

I very much agree:  this looks like a promising way to go.

However, my concern is mostly with the procedures and management 
infrastructure surrounding such plants.  The technology is improving, 
but people (especially malicious people) find ways to do stupid, 
dangerous or malevolent things with the technology, so what matters most 
of all is researching the management around the reactors, to find the 
best way to stop problems from coming out of left field.

For example, the original scientists and engineers devised safety 
measures to ensure nothing bad could happen in places like Chernobyl and 
Bhopal, but after a while the management on the ground lost interest or 
tried to cut costs, with the result that (e.g.) workers in Chernobyl 
were routinely doing such things as carrying open buckets of radioactive 
waste around by hand.

Even with the pebble-bed reactors, what matters is the unexpected 
gotchas lying hidden away in the system as a whole (people plus technology).

Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
the captains of industry.


Richard Loosemore


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:39:05 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:39:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401011907.0241df00@satx.rr.com>
References: <8CA61CBF31B0B65-1518-34C8@webmail-dd18.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804010520.m315KcXk002652@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401011907.0241df00@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804010939o64d32dafn91d21844d4374ce5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> The following name would be ideal for an Aussie site but probably
> nowhere else on the planet, alas:
> bee-buggered.com

Oh, Damien, I needed a laugh today.  And I got a big one.  Thanks so much!!!

PJ


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 16:46:15 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:46:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <552780.81939.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><f7bfe5740803281001l7ee92bbbsf5bc57f1c4da531a@mail.gmail.com><f7bfe5740803281009h5b4b80e4td181d61e971b7700@mail.gmail.com><00d301c892d7$57db8f90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f7bfe5740803310741i2e4dff17k80f395646e3eed49@mail.gmail.com><019801c8937a$fe826230$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740803311725t7bee74d5n45d7c36053f22ed3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c89418$693a8d30$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jef writes

>>  We were closer back in the days when you'd agree that a 6 year
>>  old Alice was not the same person as the 86 year old Alice. But
>>  it seems to me that you are becoming increasingly vague and
>>  obscure.
> 
> On the contrary, I posted that little story about Aging Alice,
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2006-November/030182.html>,
> to show that the diachronic self entails /no/ difference of identity
> for the person or their society -- to the extent that agency is
> maintained.

Your Alice example is very much a step in the right direction. You
describe below the changes that occur to someone who we know
as Alice in your story.

To summarize what you've written below, let me excerpt

> Personal identity is a function of the extent to which an agent is
> perceived to act on behalf of a (personal) entity.
> 
> Regardless of changes in physical form; function lost or enhanced;
> memories lost, gained, modified or even "made up"; values cherished
> and then left behind, emotional response changing over minutes, hours,
> weeks, years; spatial change, temporal change, spatio-temporal
> replicas... None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
> extent it impacts agency.

Okay:  "None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
extent that it impacts agency."  Your continued emphasis and
apparent reliance on certain particular words like "agency" 
does create the suspicion that you lack other ways of describing
what you believe. 

So we are to conclude that this Alice is the same person---or,
perhaps shares the same personal identity---or, perhaps "the
original Alice still survives"---or, perhaps.... please do supply
other descriptions that don't use the word "agency".  Okay,
so I'll assume that the answer is "yes" to my suggested rephrasing
right there in this paragraph.

Here is another example:  Joe Glenn is a typical American Midwestern
boy who is very much into video games and sports, and doing his
best conscientiously on his school work.  Upon graduation from
high school, he enlists in the Marine Corps, gains weight, and
eventually becomes a drill instructor. He's not that interested 
anymore in visiting his little home town, and he seldom even
sees his family more than once in five years.  Without using the
word "agency", can you guess as to whether  (a) the original
Joe is still alive? (b) Joe has become a different person?  (c)
Joe has changed, but is still has the same personal identity?
and, if possible, other descriptions that would help us understand
your notion of "personal identity".

Now does the answer to that change if Joe adopts a different
name, now becoming "Mack Sullivan"?  Is the answer affected
if it's revealed that he has continued keeping the same journal
that he started in high school, and that he enjoys reading his
old journal entries, that he's still very much into the same video
games as before, and keeps in touch with the same gangs of
on-line game enthusiasts that he did before?

I'm not trying to expose any shortcomings in your views here;
just trying to understand how you'd phrase the evolution of
this human being.

Oh---and one more thing---unlike your posts, I'll spare the
insulting condescension of implying how hopeless it seems 
that your meandering intellect.... oops!  :-)  Well, I'm not
going to waste bandwidth with assaults on your ways of
thinking, or at least I'll keep it to a bare minimum. You 
should consider doing the same.

Lee

> I showed how Alice as a young girl, Alice as a young adult, Alice as a
> mature adult, and even Alice in old age could have substantial, even
> conflicting, differences in their memories, values, functions and
> ...
> operating according to principles outside your model, that you've
> chosen to ignore -- apparently because to do so would undermine the
> Key to Personal Survival you've been so tightly grasping and carefully
> polishing all these years.  You can't possibly come up with even an
> approximate function for relating physical/functional/pattern
> divergence....
> ...
> Physical/functional/pattern similarity is merely *correlated in our
> experience* with identity because it's the simplest, most probable
> example of personal agency, with that probability approaching absolute
> certainty as all differences approach indiscernibility.
> 
> Personal identity is not a function of physical/functional/pattern
> similarity -- that's only a special case.
> Personal identity is a function of the extent to which an agent is
> perceived to act on behalf of a (personal) entity.
> 
> Regardless of changes in physical form; function lost or enhanced;
> memories lost, gained, modified or even "made up"; values cherished
> and then left behind, emotional response changing over minutes, hours,
> weeks, years; spatial change, temporal change, spatio-temporal
> replicas... None of this matters to personal identity, except to the
> extent it impacts agency.
> ....
> realized I've said it all before.
> 
> When will I learn?




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 16:32:18 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 09:32:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <p06230901c4177eff2cc5@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

>...On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
> 
> Dear Spike,
> 
> A friend of mine returned from Arizona carrying a large jar 
> of local honey; she told me that there was no decline in the 
> bees in Arizona...

Thanks Amara!  Good.  A Texan friend contacted me recently and said the bees
are healthy there too.  The locals here in Taxifornia have been hit hard, as
have the Oregonians.  I have a beekeeper friend in Washington state, but
haven't heard back from him...

> Google Maps might help:
> 
> http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2000/02/astronomical-observat
> ories-on-google.html
> ... Amara

Thanks, cool.  Amara, do you want to be in the offlist bee group?  You can
be our queen.  {8-]  No forget that, we would be overwhelmed by yahoos
applying to be drones.  {8^D

There are two things I am studying with this exercise.  One is the bees, the
other is how information flows in the internet age.  That is *fundamentally
different* now than it was in our misspent youth, ja?  The internet provides
a tool that changes everything.  I see it as something that will play a
major role over the next two to five decades in the coming transition in
energy sources.

spike




From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 17:04:23 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:04:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com><1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek>
	<47EFE957.70200@pobox.com><8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com><a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com><8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
	<580930c20804010437u7de5855fyc0d6216b996a6b11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022b01c8941b$07ee1350$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Alex wrote

> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:52 AM, <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

> That occurred to to afterward, but it makes you wonder what if
> anything the parents would do about it?

Alex is referring to his description of the discouraging, offensive,
and uncivilized conduct of some local boys who'd been stealing
apples from his apple tree somewhere in England, and who
generated the most profane insults they knew when he yelled
at them to stop.

> After all, they are the ones that have been responsible for the
> moral education of these young un's. Haven't they done well
> so far !

But the truth is that boys have been doing this to their elders
for thousands of years. In the opening pages of Mark Twain's
"A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", he describes
himself, transported somehow back in time, riding into town
on a horse or donkey or something, and being jeered and
pummeled by rocks by the local (9th century) boys. Says he,
"So I had to get down and deal with them just as in my day,
(the 19th century) )", presumably trying to chase or scare
them or something, or to throw rocks back at them.

By and large, I believe that children are *better* behaved today
than when I was a child in the 50s, and that was a lot better than
the stories I heard my father tell of childhood in the tens and
twenties. Take "Trick or Treat", for example.  In the bad old
days, there really was a rather mean Trick that would get played
on anyone who didn't provide the candy-loot that was demanded.
Little kids today scarcely know what the phrase even means.

But I'm speaking of a Californian who can actually remember
at age 7 noticing that the kids were nicer in southern California 
than they had been in small town Nebraska. I think that the
newer the communities, the less corruption overall, and the
better behavior of children. 

(Still, I totally agree with you that such behavior is not acceptable,
and that whatever improvements---including getting their parents
or even the police involved---that might be effective should probably
be undertaken. No reason we can't keep on improving our societies.)

Lee

> Likewise I think the law is flaccid when it comes to this kind of
> behaviour in kids this age. Teachers are no longer allowed to
> deal out discipline and even parents are limited and watched like
> hawks under the guise of 'protecting kids from abuse'....
 


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 17:25:06 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:25:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why do we get personal?  (Was EP and Peak Oil)
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30804010910n26139dc1kee677dff3eefcbb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <023801c8941d$d9c778b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

PJ writes

> There are some on this list who could use a little femoral nerve
> deadening right around their patella.  Stop looking for commies
> under my bed, Lee.  All you'll find there are dust bunnies.

and then

> Wait a second... maybe that's why Lee and others like him are on a
> transhumanist list... he wants us all to have a free market neural
> transplant, so the dream of Homo economicus could become a reality!
> Now if we could only find the part of the brain that governs free
> markets...  ;-)

(I admit readily that my complaint here is about something that is
nothing compared to the *really* ad hominem attacks that frequent
most mailing lists.)

But I'm reminded of what Margaret Thatcher said

     "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly 
     wounding because I think, well, if they attack one
     personally, it means they have not a single political
     argument left."

By contrast, I do not generally characterize my interlocutors
in negative ways, certainly not by name. True, I have sometimes
referred to "those of previously leftist dispositions who...", etc.,
but it's not quite the same thing, of course.

Is it a form of insecurity, or just bad manners?  The condescension
from several people on this list who I'm currently talking to looks a
little pathetic and desperate to me, honestly. It's also as though
they're perhaps just not very good at keeping their disgust at certain
*ideas* from translating into disdain for certain *persons*.

I request that we try harder to keep the focus on ideas, to try
to avoid making these issues personal, and to avoid general
negative characterizations of others.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  1 17:36:56 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:36:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com><ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com><62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com><015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <023901c8941f$f6375ea0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Eliezer writes

> Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power 
> as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in 
> government.

You're preaching to the choir!  Yes, indeed, I couldn't agree more.

> As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon emissions 
> from coal plants that should never have been built.
> 
> It is not necessarily possible for the "free market" to swoop in and 
> fix these problems after they have had 40 years to get worse.

Oh, absolutely correct again.  No amount of allegiance to capitalism
or the ideals of a truly free market can address the manifold problems
of excess government interference in economic matters. Only a 
concerted understanding by the populace of democratic countries
of the basics of sound economics, and a willingness to abandon
"government" as the solution to every purported problem or "crisis"
can effectively address the problem.

> The "free market" has *already* been stomped on, and the lead time to 
> fix things is not instantaneous.
> 
> If I put it that way, do you see how much trouble we may be in?

The "trouble we're in" is only relative, in my opinion. Yes, it's very sad
to see the foolish and ignorant ways that we have been economically held
back from where we should have been. First move: stop all government
subsidies of ethanol, solar power, wind power, and every other kind of
development; honestly gained profit is the driver of the creation of wealth.

Second move, stop huge government "investments" of  massive funds that
create the political corruption, the "military-industrial complex", the "education
complex", the "agriculture-industrial complex", and create so many, many
hungry and avaricious lobbyists, and so on and on.  Perhaps not overnight,
but just as soon as can be reasonably managed.

Lee



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  1 18:20:33 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:20:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>

At 09:10 AM 4/1/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:

>assuming for just a nanosecond that... you're not still all reeling 
>consciously or
>unconsciously from the demise of Communism

I thought PJ was stretching a bit with her counter-gibe about people 
looking for Commies under her bed; nope, there it is. Amazing.

>and the proven poverty-creating socialisms of one kind or another

What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven 
my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical health 
system, funded from taxation together with private insurance, that 
would support me in Australia.##

"Socialism" is an absurd would-be "red-baiting" description, but it's 
presumably the sort of scare label that frightens many working USians 
away from demanding such a health system. (But not US medicos, it 
seems: the latest study showed "More than half of U.S. doctors now 
favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third 
oppose the idea, according to a survey published on Monday." ( 
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3143203520080331 )

Damien Broderick
##I await the inevitable reply (although not from Lee): "Why doncha 
go back there, then, ya Commie stooge?"





From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 18:01:37 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:01:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <148975.42577.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, very good. The point is that true and false are abstract human categories (just like selfhood...and Napolean). Reality has no truck with such things. We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be denied as valid by another. There is no "true" or "false" out there. There is no Napolean out there. It's a mental construct which people define in different ways to suit different purposes. It's entirely irrelevant how we answer the question, it changes nothing. A clear cut answer will serve only to obfuscate matters further by confusing people into thinking that there is such black and whiteness.

Hope this makes things less muddy ;)


and apologies for sending this straight to your own address initially Lee - Yahoo's being inconsistent with this list for some reason.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 5:19:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood

Michael writes

> Lee said
> 
>> [Concerning the following simple inquiry under the hypothesis
>> that a following a devastating plague, a certain "lunatic" now 
>> living in a mental institution in the U.S. who believes himself
>> to be the same person as Napoleon I of France, is the sole
>> survivor on Earth]
>>
>>      The Emperor Napoleon (1769- ), formerly of France, but
>>      now living in a certain city in the U.S., turned out to be the
>>      last living human on Earth?
>> 
>> Well, is that true or false? 
> 
> Sometimes matters don't divide up neatly into those two words.

Why, naturally, of course.  Haven't you heard that there are "shades
of gray"?  Or rather, perhaps you suppose that some of us have
never heard the phrase, or mastered the notion of a continuum.

But seriously, does this mean that you *also* do not lean one way
or another towards accepting or rejecting the above statement? 

> In fact, probably most of the time [matters don't divide up
> neatly into those two words].

Oh?  An assertion by you?  May I infer that you believe your assertion
to be true, or would that also fall into the category of things that cannot
be so simply characterized as "true" or "false"?

But then, there I go again.  Asking for yes or no....  :-)

Lee

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 18:11:04 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:11:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804010756g181cb5bke7d9b6078f83f612@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804011839.m31IdHq6024593@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ... On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
> 
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:21 PM, BillK wrote:
> > Good news for Spike!
 
> > 
> <http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_i
> > d=218393082>
> >
> 
> 
> I've just realised that my comment could be misinterpreted.
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that Spike is getting chemotherapy!

Cool, I didn't even think of that interpretation.  {8^]  Thanks Billk.  I
currently have two (extended) family members undergoing cancer treatments
including radiation and chemo, but neither have ever done CR, and I am
pretty sure neither would be open to the idea unfortunately.

It makes sense to me that chemotherapy would work better for CRers: the dose
must be very carefully controlled.  My colleague's wife perished because
they gave her a little too much of the toxin when they thought she may have
actually been recovering from the breast cancer.  {8-[  

> I just meant that because Spike already does calorie 
> restriction, in the unlikely event that he ever does need 
> chemo, then he has a head start over everyone else... BillK

It seems to me that different types of tissue would react differently to a
particular level of toxin, so the medics would need to estimate the ratio of
muscle, bone, flab and other to get the dose right.  If the flab level is
way low, that job would be easier?

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  1 18:11:04 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:11:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the bee problem and a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
ablainey at aol.com
	Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:33 PM
	To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
	Subject: Re: [ExI] The Bee Problem
	
	
	...Interesting, I'd also like to know if this is worldwide or
America's specific...

This first round of the bee site effort will be US-specific, but Europeans
if you wish to participate, make notes of the bee population and where you
live.  The resolution I planned for the US would be at the county level.  A
county in the states is typically about 50 to 100 km on a side.  Is there
something analogous to a county in Europe and Australia?  If not, a city
will do for location, or GPS coordinates.  



	...You said 'We are going to miss eating fruit and nuts.' I can see
this being a definite problem if all bee types are declining. but what if
other species like solitary bee's, bumble etc are not effected? These and
other pollinators might increase in number to fill the gap?	Alex
	


Alex, the bumblebee is a pollinator, but not an adequate substitute for
honeybees.  If you are in a position to do it, watch a bumblebee, and
estimate how much work she gets done per unit time, by counting the number
of blossoms visited per minute, number of minutes before she leaves, how
many total bumblebees are on a particular bush at a time, etc.  It's about a
tenth as effective as a honeybee, and there are far fewer of them usually.
You will see that bumblebees are lazy bugs.  Well, everything is lazy
compared to a honeybee.  Honeybees will swarm onto a blossoming orange tree
by the skerjillions, and really make tracks from one blossom to another.
They seem to go in fast forward compared to all other pollinators, such as
flies and humming birds.  Honeybees do more pollinating than all other bugs
combined.

Your comment gave me an interesting idea however.  We could look at the
possibility of breeding alternate pollinators, possibly non-flyers, such as
some hardy type of roach for instance.  They stay nearby, they breed like
mormons, and for all their undeserved reputation as diseased carriers, I
have never seen a sick roach.  If we develop crawling pollinators we might
have less of a problem with their being smashed on car windows and might be
easier to keep them healthy.  

What would really be cool is if we could somehow process the roaches into
food at the end of the pollination season, or perhaps feed them to the hogs.
Of course it does have some psychological factors (...fruit trees black with
creepy roaches, ewww...) but we will overcome that hangup once we get
sufficiently hungry.

spike


  



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr  1 18:47:46 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:47:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

John K Clark wrote
>Damien, I read your link but frankly I am not
>impressed. It's a fact that
>there are not many organizations that can provide the
>services that Halliburton can and do so in a war
>zone, and so they charge accordingly. I
>can't see where they did anything Enron level bad
>much less committed a government grade horror. I'm
>not saying Halliburton is incapable of being
>a little naughty from time to time, but compared with
>routine governmentgrade evil it's a little like a
>prison guard at Auschwitz raging about the
>injustice of it all because somebody put a whoopee
>cushion on his chair.

>  John K Clark

Halliburton is hired to help do two things - rebuild
Iraq's oil industry and perform logistical support to
the US military. Rebuilding Iraq's oil industry could
be done by a great many oil companies if they were
given decent security backup. As for logistical
support - true, not many commercial organisations can
do what Halliburton can. However, there's are two
radical alternatives to hiring contractors at fat
rates:
1)reinstate the draft and have young men truck the
stuff through Iraq much like their dads did for
Vietnam - not an electorally popular move, but making
strong use of America's resources.
2)Having allies. This may come as a radical view, but
if the Bush administration had spent a little more
time building an international coalition, he might
have been able to have more areas of Iraq being
handled by non-US forces.
 Afghanistan has a great many NATO countries involved
- OK, the coalition creaks a little as the
US,UK,Canada and Belgium take all the danger zones
(and the UK gets to take on the world heroin
production capital) while other countries take on the
more stable parts, but it works. Many countries are
persuaded that it's worth putting in effort for a
stable Afghanistan. 
 If this had been done for Iraq, there'd be less need
for Halliburton and the cost of the war would be
partially born by other nations and the overall total
might be lower, as it would avoid some of the
"contractor corruption" widely reported in the media.
 Of course, to do that would have required
negotiation, taking time and actually having credible
intelligence to go to war on. Perhaps someone a few
years back should have thought "You know, this
intelligence isn't that strong and most nations aren't
buying it. Why are we buying it? Are we that sure it's
worth losing thousands of our troops over?"

Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
project that they think would help the world, advance
human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
got to wonder at the waste of it all.

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr  1 20:21:05 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:21:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com> <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com> <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>


> I very much agree:  this looks like a promising way to go.
>
> However, my concern is mostly with the procedures and management 
> infrastructure surrounding such plants.  The technology is improving, 
> but people (especially malicious people) find ways to do stupid, 
> dangerous or malevolent things with the technology, so what matters most 
> of all is researching the management around the reactors, to find the 
> best way to stop problems from coming out of left field.
>   
True. But stupid and malicious people are no reason to remain 
stationary. If they were, we would still be in the stone age. I'm afraid 
we're stuck with those people. So far there have been plenty of them who 
have found ways to do dangerous and malevolent things with fertilizer 
and gun powder. We just need to do the best we can and move forward.
> For example, the original scientists and engineers devised safety 
> measures to ensure nothing bad could happen in places like Chernobyl and 
> Bhopal, but after a while the management on the ground lost interest or 
> tried to cut costs, with the result that (e.g.) workers in Chernobyl 
> were routinely doing such things as carrying open buckets of radioactive 
> waste around by hand.
>
> Even with the pebble-bed reactors, what matters is the unexpected 
> gotchas lying hidden away in the system as a whole (people plus technology).
>   
True again. But remember, that plant was devised in a communist country, 
not a free market with a free flow of information. Such a thing would be 
tough to pull off these days. Of course, new and exciting things to pull 
off are always just around the corner, but again, it shouldn't be a 
barrier, only a place to stop, ponder, and do our best. Hindsight is 
always going to be 20/20, but the only other possible way to go is to 
remain stagnant and I fear that option more.
> Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
> locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
> industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
> the captains of industry.
>
>
>   
There is however some subtle truth to this. I wouldn't say many are 
locked into a "mindset" about this. I think Eli was just acknowledging 
that the modern day environmentalist movement is indeed the main reason 
nuclear power has been much ignored while we continue to burn off our 
fossil fuels. There is some good debate here as to whether or not global 
warming is caused by these emissions or even whether or not global 
warming itself is bad. But for the most part everyone here knows that an 
alternative needs to be found long before the oil runs out so this issue 
trumps global warming. I personally like the green people - until they 
stand in the way of progress. But many get their priorities out of whack 
so while Eli's statement may not apply to everyone that is "green, it 
certainly applies to many.



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 19:45:59 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 12:45:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
> project that they think would help the world, advance
> human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
> them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
> got to wonder at the waste of it all.

Actually, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E.
Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda J. Bilmes, that number is $3
Trillion so far -- and that's supposedly an "excessively conservative"
estimate.  And it's rising.

http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-roane30mar30,0,3004376.story

PJ


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 20:00:13 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:00:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804011300icfe04a7gdba9bf4be4d9b40e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:45 PM, PJ Manney wrote:
>  Actually, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E.
>  Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda J. Bilmes, that number is $3
>  Trillion so far -- and that's supposedly an "excessively conservative"
>  estimate.  And it's rising.
>
>  http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-roane30mar30,0,3004376.story
>


Well, it's not actually wasted, is it?
It's making more friends of the government into billionaires.


BillK


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 21:48:12 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 17:48:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <01a601c8937d$cf0bc7f0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <01a601c8937d$cf0bc7f0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804011448q1818a10k61dc3a6fea81c4e4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>
>
> For example, the most efficient means of capital formation in
> western civilization appears to be the development of the limited
> liability corporation.  Unfortunately, without supervision from
> some sovereign state (you see, I hate to the use the "g---" word),
> company managers take advantage of stock holders to such an
> extent that sooner or later funds dry up, thus retarding economic
> growth.  Institutions such as the SEC are therefore necessary,
> so far as I have been able to determine.


### Apostasy!

There is good evidence that private stock exchanges are superior to
government organizations at enforcing proper accounting to alleviate the
agent-principal problem in limited liability corporations. Stock exchanges
rely on long term persistence to attract customers, and that means both
companies and shareholders. As long as there is sufficient transparency and
alternative conduits for information (e.g. press, blogs, whistleblowers), as
well as competition between exchanges, the owners of stock exchanges stand
to gain by discouraging dishonest companies from listing. If the misbehavior
of one company on their list becomes public, all other companies suffer,
since potential shareholders will look for another exchange that is not
tainted by scandal, and their volume of trade as well as income, will go
down. Companies also want to have high liquidity of their stock, which means
they prefer exchanges with lots of potential investors, and so there is a
strong incentive to maximize volume of trade over long periods of time.
Self-regulation of industries to minimize transaction costs (which entails
combating fraud) is a natural development in any situation with competition,
transparency and long-term persistence. Laugh at me if you want but the
Chinese stock exchanges are an example of emerging self-regulation.

The biggest problem with the government here is that it frequently pre-empts
the development of such self-regulatory mechanisms, and imposes complex,
costly, one-size-fits-all rules with poor feedback and frequently is subject
to "regulatory capture" - the gaining of control over regulators by some of
the regulated entities. A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley, which imposed
huge costs that disproportionately afflict smaller businesses, and thus
serve to limit the competition against entrenched large companies - exactly
the companies that lobby the government and hire former SEC employees (the
"revolving door" phenomenon).

So whenever a government official tells you to be afraid of freedom and to
give him more control of your life, be afraid of him. He is not your friend.

Rafal
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From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 00:15:48 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:15:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
	<47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com> <47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:

>> Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
>> locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
>> industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
>> the captains of industry.
>>
> There is however some subtle truth to this. I wouldn't say many are 
> locked into a "mindset" about this. I think Eli was just acknowledging 
> that the modern day environmentalist movement is indeed the main reason 
> nuclear power has been much ignored while we continue to burn off our 
> fossil fuels. There is some good debate here as to whether or not global 
> warming is caused by these emissions or even whether or not global 
> warming itself is bad. But for the most part everyone here knows that an 
> alternative needs to be found long before the oil runs out so this issue 
> trumps global warming. I personally like the green people - until they 
> stand in the way of progress. But many get their priorities out of whack 
> so while Eli's statement may not apply to everyone that is "green, it 
> certainly applies to many.

Sorry, but I just don't accept the analysis.

In the 1960s and 70s the greens lobbied hard for less nuclear power and 
massive funding of sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.

Then Three Mile Island and Chernobyl happened, and nuclear was suddenly 
scary as hell.  Overnight, no new plants.

Then the greens continued to lobby hard for massive funding of 
sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.

Then 9/11 and Iraq happened and oil started increasing in price at a 
rate that was actually noticeable, and now suddenly nuclear is back on 
the agenda.

If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green 
lobby, then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained 
back of a whipping boy.




Richard Loosemore





From max at maxmore.com  Wed Apr  2 01:00:45 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:00:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <023901c8941f$f6375ea0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<023901c8941f$f6375ea0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <20080402010047.NPQG29946.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>

I apologize for what is, essentially, a "me too" post. However, since 
I've rejected the "libertarian" label as too restrictive, I'm a 
little worried that some might think me a soft, pinko, small-brained, 
statist thug.

So, I just want to say, in response to the comments by Lee and Eli:

I AGREE! (i.e., ME TOO)

Or, to drive the point home, with a blatant disregard for political 
correctness:

MORE NUCLEAR POWER!

MORE FREE MARKETS!

MORE RATIONALITY!

Before anyone's knees jerk, sending them flying into my face... of 
course the above three don't *necessarily* go together. But they *do* 
go together right now, as it happens. My view on that reality 
apparently agrees with my views as a 15-year old in England, when I 
was (as far as I can tell) the only member of CND (Campaign for 
Nuclear Disarmament) who enthusiastically supported the expansion of 
nuclear power.

Max


At 12:36 PM 4/1/2008, Lee Corbin wrote:
>Eliezer writes
>
> > Lee, the world is 40 years behind where it should be on nuclear power
> > as a direct result of anti-rationalist environmentalist meddling in
> > government.
>
>You're preaching to the choir!  Yes, indeed, I couldn't agree more.
>
> > As a result, the world also has 40 years of excess carbon emissions
> > from coal plants that should never have been built.
> >
> > It is not necessarily possible for the "free market" to swoop in and
> > fix these problems after they have had 40 years to get worse.
>
>Oh, absolutely correct again.  No amount of allegiance to capitalism
>or the ideals of a truly free market can address the manifold problems
>of excess government interference in economic matters. Only a
>concerted understanding by the populace of democratic countries
>of the basics of sound economics, and a willingness to abandon
>"government" as the solution to every purported problem or "crisis"
>can effectively address the problem.
>
> > The "free market" has *already* been stomped on, and the lead time to
> > fix things is not instantaneous.
> >
> > If I put it that way, do you see how much trouble we may be in?
>
>The "trouble we're in" is only relative, in my opinion. Yes, it's very sad
>to see the foolish and ignorant ways that we have been economically held
>back from where we should have been. First move: stop all government
>subsidies of ethanol, solar power, wind power, and every other kind of
>development; honestly gained profit is the driver of the creation of wealth.
>
>Second move, stop huge government "investments" of  massive funds that
>create the political corruption, the "military-industrial complex", 
>the "education
>complex", the "agriculture-industrial complex", and create so many, many
>hungry and avaricious lobbyists, and so on and on.  Perhaps not overnight,
>but just as soon as can be reasonably managed.
>
>Lee
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From max at maxmore.com  Wed Apr  2 01:07:15 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:07:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>

At 01:20 PM 4/1/2008, Damien wrote:
>At 09:10 AM 4/1/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>
> >and the proven poverty-creating socialisms of one kind or another
>
>What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven
>my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical health
>system, funded from taxation together with private insurance, that
>would support me in Australia.##

Damien, you Communist stooge, you. (Joking. You live in Texas. How 
red can you be?) You're right. The US medical care system is 
seriously messed up. But why do you reflexively assume more 
government is the answer? I expect you'd be willing to grant that the 
US system is very very far from a free market. Are you sure that a 
true free market in medical care wouldn't be a major improvement.

Answer me with a "yes, of course, you market-lovin' bozo", and it 
might spur me to finally put together a piece (for my brand spanking 
new blog) on what steps toward such a system might be.

>"Socialism" is an absurd would-be "red-baiting" description, but it's
>presumably the sort of scare label that frightens many working USians
>away from demanding such a health system. (But not US medicos, it
>seems: the latest study showed "More than half of U.S. doctors now
>favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third
>oppose the idea, according to a survey published on Monday." (
>http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3143203520080331 )

And, of course, U.S. doctors are SO smart about health economics that 
we should take this as the ultimate argument, right?

Max



Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr  2 03:13:17 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:13:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>
	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com> <47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>
	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com> <47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com> <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com>



Richard Loosemore wrote:
> Kevin Freels wrote:
>
>   
>>> Overall I am optimistic that this can be done, but not if people are 
>>> locked into a mindset in which the main problem with the nuclear 
>>> industry is that idiot environmentalists have been bollixing the work of 
>>> the captains of industry.
>>>
>>>       
>> There is however some subtle truth to this. I wouldn't say many are 
>> locked into a "mindset" about this. I think Eli was just acknowledging 
>> that the modern day environmentalist movement is indeed the main reason 
>> nuclear power has been much ignored while we continue to burn off our 
>> fossil fuels. There is some good debate here as to whether or not global 
>> warming is caused by these emissions or even whether or not global 
>> warming itself is bad. But for the most part everyone here knows that an 
>> alternative needs to be found long before the oil runs out so this issue 
>> trumps global warming. I personally like the green people - until they 
>> stand in the way of progress. But many get their priorities out of whack 
>> so while Eli's statement may not apply to everyone that is "green, it 
>> certainly applies to many.
>>     
>
> Sorry, but I just don't accept the analysis.
>
> In the 1960s and 70s the greens lobbied hard for less nuclear power and 
> massive funding of sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>
> Then Three Mile Island and Chernobyl happened, and nuclear was suddenly 
> scary as hell.  Overnight, no new plants.
>
> Then the greens continued to lobby hard for massive funding of 
> sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>
> Then 9/11 and Iraq happened and oil started increasing in price at a 
> rate that was actually noticeable, and now suddenly nuclear is back on 
> the agenda.
>
> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green 
> lobby, then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained 
> back of a whipping boy.
>
>
>   
I see where you are coming from. And yes, markets are much more powerful 
than any activist group could be. It takes markets to get things done. 
Activists can only stop things from being done. It's two different 
things. We're not talking about what the green movement has 
accomplished. We are talking about what they have prevented. Ask some 
average people on the street sometime if they would like to see nuclear 
power plants spring up all over America as a solution to the oil 
problems. When they tell you "no", ask why. I am sure you will get an 
environmental argument long before you get a nuclear weapons or economic 
argument.
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From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr  2 03:20:04 2008
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:20:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F2FB64.7030809@mindspring.com>

If you don't already know about the semi-religious concept of "the 
Noosphere", see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere .

I am sure that I am a heavy user of the "just in time education" ability 
of the Web, especially Google.  I'd say it more than doubles my ability 
to develop things and ideas.

  - David

spike wrote:
> ...
> There are two things I am studying with this exercise.  One is the bees, the
> other is how information flows in the internet age.  That is *fundamentally
> different* now than it was in our misspent youth, ja?  The internet provides
> a tool that changes everything.  I see it as something that will play a
> major role over the next two to five decades in the coming transition in
> energy sources.
>   



From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr  2 03:37:51 2008
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:37:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Calorie restriction assists chemotherapy
In-Reply-To: <200804011839.m31IdHq6024593@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804011839.m31IdHq6024593@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F2FF8F.1040007@mindspring.com>

spike wrote:
> ...
> currently have two (extended) family members undergoing cancer treatments
> including radiation and chemo, but neither have ever done CR, and I am
> pretty sure neither would be open to the idea unfortunately.
>   
The article describes not CR, but total fasting (well, presumably 
water), which is not hard to maintain for the 2 day period.  We probably 
evolved to sustain fasting frequently, and not to have 3 feasts a day 
every day.
> It seems to me that different types of tissue would react differently to a
> particular level of toxin, so the medics would need to estimate the ratio of
> muscle, bone, flab and other to get the dose right.  If the flab level is
> way low, that job would be easier?
>
> spike
>   
This is cooler than an overall change of sensitivity by all cells.  This 
changes the ratio of sensitivity between the healthy cells and the 
cancerous cells.  Imagine if the healthy cells became very inert and 
immune to the poison (chemo), but the cancer cells were killed by a high 
level of chemo.  Shazam!  Cancer cured!  Probably won't be that good, 
but it makes it easier to poison the cancer and save the healthy.

  - David



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 03:52:15 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:52:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] April 1 Google fun
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225100.057be6a8@satx.rr.com>

I suppose:

http://www.google.com/virgle/pioneer.html

http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html

http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/20080401_virgle.html



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 03:57:13 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:57:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
In-Reply-To: <47F2FB64.7030809@mindspring.com>
References: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<47F2FB64.7030809@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225532.058697e0@satx.rr.com>

At 08:20 PM 4/1/2008 -0700, David C. Harris wrote:

>If you don't already know about the semi-religious concept of "the
>Noosphere", see
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere .

My god, of course, that's it! The bees are being uplifted ahead of us 
into Teilhard's Hive Mind (well, really, we should have expected it).

Damien Broderick




From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 05:38:30 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 01:38:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>
	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com> <47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com>

> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green lobby,
> then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained
> back of a whipping boy.

Bullshit, the green lobby has caused a lot of evil in the world. They weep
about global warming but when somebody tries to build a nuclear power
plant that produces no green house gasses they oppose it. When somebody
tries to build a hydroelectric plant that produces no green house gasses
they say it will flood archeological sites and oppose it. When somebody
tries to build a wind farm that produces no green house gasses they say 
it's ugly and the blades might kill birds and they oppose it.

Right now thousands of tons of highly radioactive spent nuclear fuel rods
loaded with Plutonium are stored in hundreds of different poorly secured
makeshift locations scattered across the country. Why should that be when
there is the highly guarded state of the art Yucca Mountain repository for
nuclear waste in Nevada that is empty and designed specifically to store
those rods securely? I will tell you why it is not used, it is because the
green lobby lawyers pulled every trick in the book to prevent Yucca
Mountain from storing anything.

For example, they convinced a Federal court it was illegal to ship rods
there because the guarantee that no radiation would leak for 10,000 years
was too short; the court found credible evidence that in 270,000 years the
radiation just outside the fence would be 60 times higher than background.
Imagine if someone in the Paleolithic had told our Cro-Magnon semi human
ancestors 270,000 years ago during the Ice Age that they couldn't use that
new fangled thing called fire until they solved the problem of global
warming produced by greenhouse gasses and found a good substitute for
the finite supply of oil.

Yucca Mountain would provide excellent safety, but not perfect safety and
for them only perfection will do; so we end up with crappy safety. If
terrorists even get their hands on one of those rods we can thank those
saintly ever so noble environmentalists in their hybrid cars for it.

 John K Clark







From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr  2 06:40:35 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:40:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Bee Problem
References: <200804011700.m31H0MdT023343@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <009c01c8948c$755b5030$1fba1f97@archimede>

Spike, it seems there is a big problem also in Italy.
According to the http://www.mieliditalia.it/ 
association the decline (or extinction) of honey bee's, 
if not of all bee types, is due, for sure, to the new 
pesticides (neonicotinoids) by Bayer and Syngenta.
These pesticides are specifically used in certain
regions where the main production is corn. As far
as I understand you buy seeds already treated
with pesticides, from the beginning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoids
http://www.mieliditalia.it/n_apicoltori_fuga.htm 



From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  2 07:34:15 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 00:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <828634.33683.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Yes, very good. The point is that true and false are abstract human categories (just like selfhood...and Napolean). Reality has no truck with such things. We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be denied as valid by another. There is no "true" or "false" out there. There is no Napolean out there. It's a mental construct which people define in different ways to suit different purposes. It's entirely irrelevant how we answer the question, it changes nothing. A clear cut answer will serve only to obfuscate matters further by confusing people into thinking that there is such black and whiteness.

Hope this makes things less muddy ;)


and apologies for sending this straight to your own address initially again Lee - Yahoo's being inconsistent with this list for some reason.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 5:19:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood

Michael writes

> Lee said
> 
>> [Concerning the following simple inquiry under the hypothesis
>> that a following a devastating plague, a certain "lunatic" now 
>> living in a mental institution in the U.S. who believes himself
>> to be the same person as Napoleon I of France, is the sole
>> survivor on Earth]
>>
>>      The Emperor Napoleon (1769- ), formerly of France, but
>>      now living in a certain city in the U.S., turned out to be the
>>      last living human on Earth?
>> 
>> Well, is that true or false? 
> 
> Sometimes matters don't divide up neatly into those two words.

Why, naturally, of course.  Haven't you heard that there are "shades
of gray"?  Or rather, perhaps you suppose that some of us have
never heard the phrase, or mastered the notion of a continuum.

But seriously, does this mean that you *also* do not lean one way
or another towards accepting or rejecting the above statement? 

> In fact, probably most of the time [matters don't divide up
> neatly into those two words].

Oh?  An assertion by you?  May I infer that you believe your assertion
to be true, or would that also fall into the category of things that cannot
be so simply characterized as "true" or "false"?

But then, there I go again.  Asking for yes or no....  :-)

Lee

_______________________________________________
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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





      You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.





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      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 13:02:56 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:02:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] April 1 Google fun
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225100.057be6a8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080401225100.057be6a8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804020802.56967.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> [ExI] April 1 Google fun

Google has more funding than NASA.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 13:17:11 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:17:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com>
	<47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com>
	<47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
	<47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com> <47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <47F38757.5080609@lightlink.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:
> 
> Richard Loosemore wrote:
>> Sorry, but I just don't accept the analysis.
>>
>> In the 1960s and 70s the greens lobbied hard for less nuclear power and 
>> massive funding of sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>>
>> Then Three Mile Island and Chernobyl happened, and nuclear was suddenly 
>> scary as hell.  Overnight, no new plants.
>>
>> Then the greens continued to lobby hard for massive funding of 
>> sustainable energy.  Result:  nothing happened.
>>
>> Then 9/11 and Iraq happened and oil started increasing in price at a 
>> rate that was actually noticeable, and now suddenly nuclear is back on 
>> the agenda.
>>
>> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green 
>> lobby, then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained 
>> back of a whipping boy.
>>
>>
>>   
> I see where you are coming from. And yes, markets are much more powerful 
> than any activist group could be. It takes markets to get things done. 
> Activists can only stop things from being done.

Markets?  Eeek, Iyou have missed my point completely :-) :  it was 
people's brains that did it, not markets or green activism.  People saw 
catastrophic nuclear accidents caused by incompetence, then they drew 
conclusions.  Then they made it clear to the politicians that they would 
not tolerate any expansion of nuclear power.  The greens were irrelevant 
to the process because there was zero correlation between their activity 
and the shift in public opinion.


> It's two different 
> things. We're not talking about what the green movement has 
> accomplished. We are talking about what they have prevented. 


Markets get things done, and activists only *stop* things being done?

Hmmmmm.  The Kyoto Protocol was something that was accomplished, not 
something that was stopped.   Kyoto was not caused by market forces, but 
by activism.


> Ask some 
> average people on the street sometime if they would like to see nuclear 
> power plants spring up all over America as a solution to the oil 
> problems. When they tell you "no", ask why. I am sure you will get an 
> environmental argument long before you get a nuclear weapons or economic 
> argument.


But when you actually do ask those people, you will find a significant 
chunk of those who shout NIMBY! are green-haters.  Again, there is no 
correlation, surely.



Richard Loosemore


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 13:22:43 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:22:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
In-Reply-To: <012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com>
	<47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
	<012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <47F388A3.7090902@lightlink.com>

John K Clark wrote:
> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com>
> 
>> If you see, in this pattern, the pernicious influence of the green lobby,
>> then what you are seeing, I suggest, is only the blood-stained
>> back of a whipping boy.
> 
> Bullshit, the green lobby has caused a lot of evil in the world.

Hi John.

I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational, 
reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities of 
the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked in 
subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.

These are truly the people of the future, no?



Richard Loosemore

> They weep
> about global warming but when somebody tries to build a nuclear power
> plant that produces no green house gasses they oppose it. When somebody
> tries to build a hydroelectric plant that produces no green house gasses
> they say it will flood archeological sites and oppose it. When somebody
> tries to build a wind farm that produces no green house gasses they say 
> it's ugly and the blades might kill birds and they oppose it.
> 
> Right now thousands of tons of highly radioactive spent nuclear fuel rods
> loaded with Plutonium are stored in hundreds of different poorly secured
> makeshift locations scattered across the country. Why should that be when
> there is the highly guarded state of the art Yucca Mountain repository for
> nuclear waste in Nevada that is empty and designed specifically to store
> those rods securely? I will tell you why it is not used, it is because the
> green lobby lawyers pulled every trick in the book to prevent Yucca
> Mountain from storing anything.
> 
> For example, they convinced a Federal court it was illegal to ship rods
> there because the guarantee that no radiation would leak for 10,000 years
> was too short; the court found credible evidence that in 270,000 years the
> radiation just outside the fence would be 60 times higher than background.
> Imagine if someone in the Paleolithic had told our Cro-Magnon semi human
> ancestors 270,000 years ago during the Ice Age that they couldn't use that
> new fangled thing called fire until they solved the problem of global
> warming produced by greenhouse gasses and found a good substitute for
> the finite supply of oil.
> 
> Yucca Mountain would provide excellent safety, but not perfect safety and
> for them only perfection will do; so we end up with crappy safety. If
> terrorists even get their hands on one of those rods we can thank those
> saintly ever so noble environmentalists in their hybrid cars for it.
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 



From amara at amara.com  Wed Apr  2 14:56:44 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:56:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  April 1 Google fun
Message-ID: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>

Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com :
>I suppose:
>http://www.google.com/virgle/pioneer.html
>http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html
>http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/20080401_virgle.html

One of the most elaborate gags I've ever seen.

And the perfect response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wr1MxFvDI0


-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 15:25:37 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:25:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com><47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com><012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<47F388A3.7090902@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <001701c894d5$dc002100$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:

> Hi John.
>
> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational,
> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities
> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked
> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.
> These are truly the people of the future, no?

Hi Richard.

Thank you for your kind words. I do think I made some rather good points
if I do say so myself.

Regards   John










From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  2 15:33:42 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:33:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
References: <148975.42577.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <028001c894d7$309cefd0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> The point is that true and false are abstract human categories
> (just like selfhood...and Napoleon). Reality has no truck with
> such things.

Yes, I agree.  True and False apply to assertions, or to maps.
Now you can have a true map, or literal model, of something
as opposed to false ones. For example, suppose we made a huge
scale model of the Mississippi valley, except that it contained
a single but very prominent glaring inaccuracy (say the Platte
river runs mainly south to north rather than west to east), and
then we all die.  An alien intelligence that makes its way to
Earth will, we may say, encounter this scale model, verify
its "truthfulness" except for that one tributary. So true and
false models do exist outside of human categories.

> We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to
> admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be
> denied as valid by another.

I would not quite go so far. Let's say that there are agreed-upon
conventions of the following sort:  the symbols and word "big"
shall be taken to refer to bodies whose size exceeds the distance
from the sun to the Earth, and "small" is taken to refer or 
describe bodies smaller than the continent of Australia. Then
if one entity asserts "the galaxy is small" then this is simply 
incorrect. The mapping's in the creature's nervous system
have patent inaccuracies in them, and so are what I was 
earlier calling "false maps". 

> There is no Napoleon out there.

What about Jupiter?  Would you say that there is no Jupiter
out there? What would that mean? If you were struck by a
car as you walked across a street, you would not surely
correct a police officer who came by and asked, "were you
struck by a car", with something like "you mean, my-perception-
of-police-officer, that I experienced terrible force applied to
my-perception-of-my-body by a perception that I had of a
"car".

Now it may simply be that you are not a philosophical realist,
but subscribe to some other philosophical tradition. (If so, it
might help to know what.) But my main argument for realism
is the tremendous utility of the entire model itself of 3 dimensional
+ 1dimensional spacetime, and that there are 3D objects out 
there that I want my words to *refer* to. So whether you believe
that a proper concept of Jupiter is a large spinning ball of hydrogen
and ammonia and so on, or whatever (perhaps a local maximum
in a spatial distribution of quarks and gluons) you really can't beat
the idea of *referring* to that mass as if it really was a thing "out
there".

> It's a mental construct which people define in different ways to
> suit different purposes.

The extent that they use the same word with different meanings
or different definitions is the extent that the word or concept
loses its utility in communication for us.  (Since you used "people"
without scare quotes, I guess I can use "us" without them either.)

>  It's entirely irrelevant how we answer the question, it changes
> nothing. A clear cut answer will serve only to obfuscate matters
> further by confusing people into thinking that there is such black
> and whiteness.

Do you also think that the aforesaid police officer finds it irrelevant
how questions are answered?  Do you really conduct your life in
such a way that how we answer questions such as "Who was the
first president of the United States?", or "what is the largest planet
of the solar system?", or "when exactly did JFK die?" is irrelevant?

> Hope this makes things less muddy ;)

Hmm, well I sense some progress, or at least better mutual understanding.
Thanks for taking the time.

Lee



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Apr  2 15:20:46 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:20:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] April 1 Google fun
In-Reply-To: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>
References: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <20080402152253.SGAO20696.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 09:56 AM 4/2/2008, Amara wrote:
>Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com :
> >I suppose:
> >http://www.google.com/virgle/pioneer.html
> >http://www.google.com/virgle/index.html
> >http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/20080401_virgle.html
>
>One of the most elaborate gags I've ever seen.
>
>And the perfect response:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wr1MxFvDI0

LOL!! Thank you!!

Natasha



From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 15:41:32 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:41:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com><47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com>
	<47F2F9CD.4060907@insightbb.com> <47F38757.5080609@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <005101c894d8$0fe100f0$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com>

> Kyoto was not caused by market forces, but
> by activism.

You are quite correct, market forces could never have produced
anything as astronomically stupid as Kyoto.

  John K Clark







From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  2 15:42:43 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:42:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
In-Reply-To: <001701c894d5$dc002100$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>	<62f900cb0803301245h3db78eebj27cdb6af5701675e@mail.gmail.com>	<ee50357e0803301319h60329acdh13289f7efac10f4e@mail.gmail.com>	<62f900cb0803301920m3029131aj3de9a35f41db023b@mail.gmail.com>	<015201c892e2$3aeeeca0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<47F18FE8.8070502@pobox.com><47F24BA0.1030109@lightlink.com>	<47F26ACD.2010301@insightbb.com><47F26418.7090708@lightlink.com>	<47F29931.3030208@insightbb.com><47F2D034.2060906@lightlink.com><012601c89483$dcd89ff0$11ef4d0c@MyComputer>	<47F388A3.7090902@lightlink.com>
	<001701c894d5$dc002100$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <47F3A973.8080406@lightlink.com>

John K Clark wrote:
> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:
> 
>> Hi John.
>>
>> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational,
>> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities
>> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked
>> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.
>> These are truly the people of the future, no?
> 
> Hi Richard.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. I do think I made some rather good points
> if I do say so myself.
> 
> Regards   John

You're welcome.

I'm so glad you saw through to the heart of my message, and did not 
mistake it for a commentary on how you and some of the other shining 
beacons of polymathic futurism on this list are able to grasp the subtle 
interplay of forces in the worlds of science, politics and economics 
without descending into the tedious depths of a bigoted, axe-grindng rant.



Richard Loosemore


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 15:43:54 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:43:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
>  > http://www.drmillslmu.com/peakoil.htm
>  > Even if you don't buy into peak oil and the consequences, it's an
>  > interesting compilation. I disagree on only one point, this quote:
>  > "No combination of renewable energy systems have the potential to
>  > generate more than a fraction of the power now being generated
>  > by fossil fuels."
>  >   -- Jay Hanson
>  > And most of you know why.
>
>  Not me, I agree with the quote. Whatever is going to replace oil it will
>  need to be HUGE, absolutely ENORMOUS!

No argument.

>  Wind farms and tidal energy
>  just don't make the grade.

Agree.

>  Maybe solar energy could someday make a
>  dent in the problem, but the technology just isn't there yet.

Again, true.

>  Right now
>  it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
>  dispensed by just 100 gas stations.

It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area.
Still it's 22,608 sq km.  From Wikipedia, "or 0.45 - 1.35 kWh/m?/day"
from sunlight for 15% efficient solar cells.  Using the lower number,
that's 0.45 GWh/square km/day or 10,173 GWh/day,  for a solar panel
that size or 3,713,364 GWh/year.

"The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of
gasoline in 2006."  100 stations out of 20,000 would pump about 2.25
billion liters.  "Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per
liter(MJ/l)"  That's 88,230,000,000 MJ/year or since  "1 MJ = 0.278
kWh" 24,527,940,000 kWh/year, or 24,528 GWh/year.  At 50% conversion
efficiency electricity to liquid fuel, it takes about 50,000 GWh/year
to supply 100 gas stations.  That's about 1% of the output of a NJ
sized solar panel.

Looking back over the numbers, I suspect that paving NJ with solar
cells was what someone figured would take to replace the energy we use
in the US from gasoline.

Now look at this from using power sats, which get from 3 to 10 times
as much sunlight per square meter.  Using 8,000 hours per year it
would take about 600 GW to replace gasoline energy, or 1,200 with a
50% conversion factor.  At 5 GW, that's 120-240 power sats, or 2-4
year's production.  Or if you go to the 10 GW size, that takes as
little as a year churning them out at 60 a year.

>  There are about 20,000 gas stations
>  in the USA alone. And yes, I've heard of solar power satellites, but are
>  you so confident that the idea will be economically and ecologically
>  feasible  that you would be willing to invest your entire life savings into
>  the idea and be prepared to live on the streets if it failed? I'm not.

If we don't, and we are not "rescued" by the singularity, we stand a
high chance of starving, maybe better than 90% worldwide in the next
25-30 years.  "Life savings" may not have a lot of meaning when things
get that unstable.

>  And I'm all for making things more efficient, but that's not going to solve
>  the problem either, efficiency just makes energy cheaper, thus people will
>  use more of it.
>
>  You can fantasize about nuclear fusion (hot or cold) or vacuum zero point
>  energy all you want but the cold hard reality is that right now only 5
>  technologies have the potential to replace oil. All of them would give Green
>  Party tree huggers a tizzy fit (but then everything gives them a tizzy fit);
>  and none of them are exactly cheap, except perhaps the last if we did it
>  just right. They are:
>
>  1) Coal
>  2) Tar Sands
>  3) Oil Shale
>  4) Methane clathrate, (the least developed technology)
>  5) Nuclear Fission

None of these are renewable.  There was an interesting article in New
Scientist in Jan that makes the case we are within 25 years of peak
coal.  Even with breeder reactors you run out of fissionable fuel in
less time than you would think.  Part of the problem is the amount of
energy you have to feed into getting a unit of energy out.  When you
get down to mining granite for uranium, it's close to 100 percent
being fed back.

In this context a power satellite repays its lift energy to GEO in as
little as a day with the right technology.

Keith


From painlord2k at yahoo.it  Wed Apr  2 11:48:22 2008
From: painlord2k at yahoo.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:48:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>

Tom Nowell ha scritto:

> Halliburton is hired to help do two things - rebuild
> Iraq's oil industry and perform logistical support to
> the US military. Rebuilding Iraq's oil industry could
> be done by a great many oil companies if they were
> given decent security backup.

That have a cost, in soldiers or in contractors.
Both cost money and have a political cost.

> As for logistical
> support - true, not many commercial organisations can
> do what Halliburton can. However, there's are two
> radical alternatives to hiring contractors at fat
> rates:
> 1)reinstate the draft and have young men truck the
> stuff through Iraq much like their dads did for
> Vietnam - not an electorally popular move, but making
> strong use of America's resources.

So, you would substitute volunteers with conscripts and professional 
with amateurs?
This also have a cost: political for the draft and political and 
economic for all the added deads due to a not professional and highly 
trained force.

> 2)Having allies. This may come as a radical view, but
> if the Bush administration had spent a little more
> time building an international coalition, he might
> have been able to have more areas of Iraq being
> handled by non-US forces.

He build an international coalition and stopped to try to enlarge when 
was clear that was impossible to wider it more.
Do you remember that the France simply bought the votes of the African 
nations in the UN to oppose the invasion?
China and Russia were against for their political reason (national 
interests).


>  Afghanistan has a great many NATO countries involved
> - OK, the coalition creaks a little as the
> US, UK, Canada and Belgium take all the danger zones
> (and the UK gets to take on the world heroin
> production capital) while other countries take on the
> more stable parts, but it works. Many countries are
> persuaded that it's worth putting in effort for a
> stable Afghanistan.

The NATO countries are forced to add more soldier in Afghanistan, 
because if the coalition fail there will be a political disaster for 
all. Remember that the NATO countries are there because of the 9/11; and 
9/11 was an war attack to an allied country of NATO. No need to build 
nothing there.
Any NATO country that retire from there will be marginalized politically 
and militarily in the NATO and in the EU; Afghanistan is a NATO war, and 
   losing in Afghanistan against the Talibans will show the weakness of 
the NATO and encourage the western enemies (mainly the islamists).
If NATO, mainly the EU part of the NATO, fail in Afghanistan, the war 
will simply follow them in Europe (and you will not be happy to see what 
will happen then).


>  If this had been done for Iraq, there'd be less need
> for Halliburton and the cost of the war would be
> partially born by other nations and the overall total
> might be lower, as it would avoid some of the
> "contractor corruption" widely reported in the media.

And more parties would cause more need of pork division.
And more possibility of meddling around for internal political reason.
And a few parties were not interested in helping the US and many were 
interested in helping themselves and the US enemies.

>  Of course, to do that would have required
> negotiation, taking time and actually having credible
> intelligence to go to war on. Perhaps someone a few
> years back should have thought "You know, this
> intelligence isn't that strong and most nations aren't
> buying it. Why are we buying it? Are we that sure it's
> worth losing thousands of our troops over?"

You go in war with the intelligence you have, not with the intelligence 
you want or will have a few years after.
After twelve years of hoping that Saddam die or was overthrow, there was 
not need of intelligence to no that this was long due. Or we could 
accept the collapse of the embargo, the resuming of his power 
projections and research projects. The UNO inspectors accounted tons of 
chemicals and biological weapons in the '90 and in the 2003 they were 
unable to account them. Where are these weapons? Evaporated? Someone ate 
them? In Siria? They found prohibited missiles, instead. Enough to 
confirm the breaking of the truce and the resuming of the combats.


> Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
> project that they think would help the world, advance
> human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
> them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
> got to wonder at the waste of it all.

Think so. Now the USA have much more tested and war hardened armed 
forces. Much more than Russia and China and others.
And you never computed the cost of not toppling Saddam and the Talibans.

If you want save a dime, move the US troops away from Kossovo and Bosnia.

Mirco

-- 
[Intangible capital is] the preponderant form of wealth.
When we look at the shares of intangible capital across income classes, 
you see it goes from about 60 percent in low-income countries to 80 
percent in high-income countries.
That accords very much with the notion that what really makes countries 
wealthy is not the bits and pieces, it's the brainpower, and the 
institutions that harness that brainpower.
It's the skills more than the rocks and minerals.
?Kirk Hamilton

Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! 
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com 



From painlord2k at yahoo.it  Wed Apr  2 11:04:30 2008
From: painlord2k at yahoo.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:04:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] solar cell innovation
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330234127.024d1b08@satx.rr.com>
References: <200803310326.m2V3Pk5b010875@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<200803310430.m2V4UQLd007212@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080330234127.024d1b08@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47F3683E.3080802@yahoo.it>

Damien Broderick ha scritto:
> At 09:03 PM 3/30/2008 -0700, spike wrote:
> 
>> In the next few decades, our gradual transition away from oil for
>> transportation will include a hundred different solutions where currently
>> there is really only one.
> 
> One of the graphs on the site Keith sent us to states that power 
> generation uses a derisory amount of oil, < 2 %. How much is used for 
> transport? Google points to 2/3 of total.
> 
> <http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/demand_text.htm>
> <oil consumption in the United States and Canada equals almost 3 
> gallons per day per capita.  (The difference is these countries' 
> transportation sectors, with their dependence on private vehicles to 
> travel relatively long distances.)  Oil consumption in the rest of 
> the OECD equals 1.4 gallons per day per capita.  Outside of the OECD, 
> oil consumption equals 0.2 gallons per day per capita. >

The EU, that is much of the rest of the EUCD, have higher taxes on the 
oil products. Currently, in Italy, the cost is 1.35 ?/liter that is more 
than 5$/gallon.
This simply prevent people to commute to work on long distances without 
public transport, and the public transport is rarely comfortable or 
available when and where people need it.
Couple with a mummified house market (high prices, costly to buy and 
sell home), and people have much less opportunity to find and change 
their jobs for a better one. And this make us more poor than the US.

There is, for sure, space for improvements, but people consume less 
mainly because they are poor, not because they are smarter.

Mirco

-- 
[Intangible capital is] the preponderant form of wealth.
When we look at the shares of intangible capital across income classes, 
you see it goes from about 60 percent in low-income countries to 80 
percent in high-income countries.
That accords very much with the notion that what really makes countries 
wealthy is not the bits and pieces, it's the brainpower, and the 
institutions that harness that brainpower.
It's the skills more than the rocks and minerals.
?Kirk Hamilton

Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! 
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com 



From aiguy at comcast.net  Wed Apr  2 16:18:33 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (aiguy at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:18:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
Message-ID: <040220081618.14845.47F3B1D9000D3C21000039FD2200751090979A09070E@comcast.net>

Keith said:
> 
> It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area. 
> Still it's 22,608 sq km. From Wikipedia, "or 0.45 - 1.35 kWh/m?/day" 
> from sunlight for 15% efficient solar cells. Using the lower number, 
> that's 0.45 GWh/square km/day or 10,173 GWh/day, for a solar panel 
> that size or 3,713,364 GWh/year. 
> 
> "The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of 
> gasoline in 2006." 100 stations out of 20,000 would pump about 2.25 
> billion liters. "Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per 
> liter(MJ/l)" That's 88,230,000,000 MJ/year or since "1 MJ = 0.278 
> kWh" 24,527,940,000 kWh/year, or 24,528 GWh/year. At 50% conversion 
> efficiency electricity to liquid fuel, it takes about 50,000 GWh/year 
> to supply 100 gas stations. That's about 1% of the output of a NJ 
> sized solar panel. 
> 

What if we we to mount the solar farms in the center of the Great Lakes and bring the power
back with under water cables.

The lakes are big enough that they wouldn't be visible from shore and by distributing thm across
the lakes transmission loss due to distance could be minimized.

The average depth of the lakes is 500 ft. so they could be anchored on tethers  or on small interconnect platforms
whichever would be most stable and storm resistent.

I realize this adds to the cost of construction but when you consider that no real estate needs to be purchased.  No issues/lawsuits from 
eminent domain battles and angry homeowners who don' t want to have to see solar arrays from their back yards it 
might be a cost savings in the long run.

Because we share the Lakes with Canada we could even make it a joint venture between the two countries in
the spirit of international cooperation and to share expense.

Channels could be left open at various points for maintenance and to allow for navigation by boats and commercial vessels.

But I used to live near Lake Erie and was even out fishing at the 3 mile mark a few times and there's not that much traffic out there.
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From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  2 16:15:23 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:15:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]
Message-ID: <421467.55249.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

i think my sarcasm monitor has just exploded. I'm now covered in layer after layer of irony. Please stop!

----- Original Message ----
From: Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:42:43 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nuanced  discussions [WAS Re:  EP and Peak oil.]

John K Clark wrote:
> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:
> 
>> Hi John.
>>
>> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed.  Full of rational,
>> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand the complexities
>> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect are often linked
>> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by careful thought.
>> These are truly the people of the future, no?
> 
> Hi Richard.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. I do think I made some rather good points
> if I do say so myself.
> 
> Regards   John

You're welcome.

I'm so glad you saw through to the heart of my message, and did not 
mistake it for a commentary on how you and some of the other shining 
beacons of polymathic futurism on this list are able to grasp the subtle 
interplay of forces in the worlds of science, politics and economics 
without descending into the tedious depths of a bigoted, axe-grindng rant.



Richard Loosemore
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
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From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  2 16:59:28 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:59:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> 100 stations [...] That's about 1% of the output of a NJ sized solar 
> panel.

Yes I think you're right, I must have screwed up a couple of decimal points,
sorry. But even using your figures that's over 2 square kilometers of solar
panel per gas station, not very encouraging.

> Now look at this from using power sats, which get from 3 to 10 times as
> much sunlight per square meter.

In space yes, but the microwave energy density on the ground would be
less than sunlight. I know rectennas are more efficient than solar cells
but I still find that figure discouraging. I'm not saying it's imposable, it
might even be practical, but I wouldn't want to stake my entire future
on it. I want a plan B.

 John K Clark






From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr  2 16:42:45 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:42:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI]   extropic spheres
References: <p06230903c4194e265148@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <001001c894e0$94e0ba40$98911f97@archimede>

Only a semipopular article on Dyson spheres 
and other astroengineering projects.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/33579



From sentience at pobox.com  Wed Apr  2 17:27:55 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:27:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>

Keith Henson wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> 
>>  Right now
>>  it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
>>  dispensed by just 100 gas stations.
> 
> It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area.
> Still it's 22,608 sq km.  From Wikipedia, "or 0.45 - 1.35 kWh/m?/day"
> from sunlight for 15% efficient solar cells.  Using the lower number,
> that's 0.45 GWh/square km/day or 10,173 GWh/day,  for a solar panel
> that size or 3,713,364 GWh/year.
> 
> "The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of
> gasoline in 2006."  100 stations out of 20,000 would pump about 2.25
> billion liters.  "Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per
> liter(MJ/l)"  That's 88,230,000,000 MJ/year or since  "1 MJ = 0.278
> kWh" 24,527,940,000 kWh/year, or 24,528 GWh/year.  At 50% conversion
> efficiency electricity to liquid fuel, it takes about 50,000 GWh/year
> to supply 100 gas stations.  That's about 1% of the output of a NJ
> sized solar panel.

That figure sounded a little odd.  Thanks for checking, Keith.

> None of these are renewable.  There was an interesting article in New
> Scientist in Jan that makes the case we are within 25 years of peak
> coal.  Even with breeder reactors you run out of fissionable fuel in
> less time than you would think.  Part of the problem is the amount of
> energy you have to feed into getting a unit of energy out.  When you
> get down to mining granite for uranium, it's close to 100 percent
> being fed back.

How long does it take to run out of uranium?  40 years may not be 
enough time for fusion, but it's enough time to switch to thorium or 
solar satellites (and probably enough time to build AI, but let's 
leave that out for now).

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 18:00:42 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:00:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:59 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>  > 100 stations [...] That's about 1% of the output of a NJ sized solar
>  > panel.
>
>  Yes I think you're right, I must have screwed up a couple of decimal points,
>  sorry. But even using your figures that's over 2 square kilometers of solar
>  panel per gas station, not very encouraging.
>
>  > Now look at this from using power sats, which get from 3 to 10 times as
>  > much sunlight per square meter.
>
>  In space yes, but the microwave energy density on the ground would be
>  less than sunlight.

Setting the power level to less than 1/4 kW/square meter was for
safety reasons.  I don't know what actual power level would go
non-linear and short out the ionosphere.  Also the rectenna doesn't
block sunlight so you can put them over farmland--something you can't
do with solar cells.

>  I know rectennas are more efficient than solar cells
>  but I still find that figure discouraging. I'm not saying it's imposable, it
>  might even be practical, but I wouldn't want to stake my entire future
>  on it. I want a plan B.

Plan B is that something like 90% of humans starve.

Of course *no* energy project, not even power sats, can work when
there is exponential population growth.  All that happens is a more
and more massive die off--eventually.

Though I seriously doubt *human* population growth will be a problem
in the post singularity era.

Keith


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  2 17:44:36 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:44:36 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1207153153.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

> "Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com> Wrote:
> 
>> Hi John.
>>
>> I love this transhumanism list.  Well informed. 
Full of rational,
>> reasoned argument.  Plenty of people who understand
the complexities
>> of  the world enough to know that cause and effect
are often linked
>> in  subtle ways that can only be understood by
careful thought.
>> These are truly the people of the future, no?

Sometimes, I feel that the transhumanists are about as
much the people of the future as early 20th century
eugenicists were. They were full of ideas, guided by
Darwinism, contained many leading intellectuals, and
were convinced that something had to be done to stop
genetically inferior people taking over the world. As
a result of policies they advocated such as forcibly
sterilising disabled people and eugenic associations
with Nazi science, they are now often discredited.
They also operated with knowledge of mendelian
genetics but without knowledge of DNA.
 Today, instead of discoursing in our salons and
literary journals, we email each other and moan about
how religous beliefs are stifling biology, or how
people are too blind to take NBIC technologies
seriously, or how people are taking the wrong approach
to energy production. Our knowledge of future
technologies is based on the early promise of
fast-developing fields, and they could well develop
much differently from how we predict.
 Sometimes I really wonder what separates us from
intellectual movements of the past that fell by the
wayside.

Tom


      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 18:42:31 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:42:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.18.1207153153.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804021142o614775b5v605eb8c79b69e20b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Tom Nowell wrote:
<snip>
>   Sometimes I really wonder what separates us from
>  intellectual movements of the past that fell by the
>  wayside.
>


The inability to write a Subject heading for emails is not a good sign.  ;)


BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 18:43:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:43:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil
In-Reply-To: <20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.m
	axmore.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080402132740.0242f810@satx.rr.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/1/2008 -0500, Max wrote:

> >What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven
> >my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical health
> >system, funded from taxation together with private insurance, that
> >would support me in Australia.##
>
>...You're right. The US medical care system is
>seriously messed up. But why do you reflexively assume more
>government is the answer?

I've lived both there and here within the last decade. I was able to 
afford crucial pharmaceuticals there and I could expect that if a 
medical crisis afflicted me I wouldn't be ruined. (And yes, of course 
I have insurance.)

>I expect you'd be willing to grant that the
>US system is very very far from a free market.

Max, I assume you haven't been following this sub-thread. I don't 
just "grant" this--it's exactly what I (and PJ Manney) have been 
saying repeatedly. The collusion between government and corporations 
is one reason.

>Are you sure that a
>true free market in medical care wouldn't be a major improvement.

I don't know. I have reason to suppose that an Aussie-style system 
would be a major improvement (for me and many other people in the 
USA) over what you have here now. Obviously I'd hope that it might be 
improved in turn. But when I read assertions about how a true free 
market would beat the socks off anything else, I'm reminded of 
classic Trotskyist communists--"Oh, the Soviet Union's just totalist 
state capitalism, not *real* marxism, which has never been tried... 
but when it does, we'll see paradise, you betcha."

>might spur me to finally put together a piece (for my brand spanking
>new blog) on what steps toward such a system might be.

Please do, would be interesting!

>of course, U.S. doctors are SO smart about health economics that
>we should take this as the ultimate argument, right?

Clearly not; but I seem to recall many times when the 
counter-argument has been supported by previous polls showing that 
doctors until recently *disapproved* of national health schemes. I 
find the change of heart informative.

Damien Broderick 



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 18:55:29 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:55:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry guys, but I found this just too compelling to pass up.

Robot Cannon Kills 9, Wounds 14
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki.html

Best, Jeff Davis

"White people are clever, but they are not wise."
          Ishi, the last of the Yahi nation


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 19:24:29 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:24:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <040220081618.14845.47F3B1D9000D3C21000039FD2200751090979A09070E@comcast.net>
References: <040220081618.14845.47F3B1D9000D3C21000039FD2200751090979A09070E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804021224s685ecd38p18fea5f470402d70@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:18 PM,  aiguy wrote:
<snip>
> Because we share the Lakes with Canada we could even make it a joint venture
> between the two countries in
> the spirit of international cooperation and to share expense.
>
> Channels could be left open at various points for maintenance and to allow
> for navigation by boats and commercial vessels.
>
> But I used to live near Lake Erie and was even out fishing at the 3 mile
> mark a few times and there's not that much traffic out there.



Did you hear that you now need your passport to go fishing?
Thanks to the ever-helpful Homeland Security Department.


<http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2008-03-26-fishing_N.htm>

Quote:

Going fishing? Pack your passport
By Mimi Hall, USA TODAY

Rick Ungar's charter fishing service promises a great time on Lake
Erie. But there's a catch ? and it's not freshwater fish. It's the
Homeland Security Department's new anti-terrorism rules.

When the 2008 charter season begins next month, U.S. citizens paying
to fish on Lake Erie will have to bring either a passport or two other
IDs if they plan to cross the northern border's invisible watery line.
When they get back to shore in the USA, they'll have to drive to a
local government reporting station and pose for pictures. They won't
be posing with their fish, but for Customs officers via a videophone
connection.

etc.....


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 20:26:55 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 22:26:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804021326r1ae9f33bx122952c98ccab729@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 9:45 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>  > Meanwhile...$500 billion on...everyone's got a pet
>  > project that they think would help the world, advance
>  > human civilisation, do something amazing - and many of
>  > them have far, far smaller pricetags. Sometimes you've
>  > got to wonder at the waste of it all.
>
>  Actually, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E.
>  Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda J. Bilmes, that number is $3
>  Trillion so far -- and that's supposedly an "excessively conservative"
>  estimate.  And it's rising.

Why, I have just happened to mention the trivial 10bn price tag of
ITER. And it took a decade and a consortium of ten different
countries... :-(((

What could we have achieved with 500bn, let alone 3000bn, in the field
of nuclear fusion?

Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  2 21:17:43 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:17:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] fusion
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804021326r1ae9f33bx122952c98ccab729@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <mailman.12.1207058937.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<29666bf30804011245k53ad379ahb50411cf84a81bde@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804021326r1ae9f33bx122952c98ccab729@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080402161445.023e8e40@satx.rr.com>

At 10:26 PM 4/2/2008 +0200, Stefano wrote:

>What could we have achieved with 500bn, let alone 3000bn, in the field
>of nuclear fusion?

More bang for our buck?  :) ##

Damien Broderick
## Note the grin. It is unnecessary for learned extropians to provide 
detailed explanations of why fusion reactors are very unlikely to explode. 



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 21:16:25 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:16:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804021416m4c375512i931c4e4def39aa1d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
<sentience at pobox.com> wrote:
> Keith Henson wrote:
>  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:37 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
>  >
>
> >>  Right now
>  >>  it would take a solar panel the size New Jersey to replace the energy
>  >>  dispensed by just 100 gas stations.
>  >
>  > It isn't a large state, in fact it's ranked 47th out of 50 in area.

snip

>  >  That's about 1% of the output of a NJ
>  > sized solar panel.
>
>  That figure sounded a little odd.  Thanks for checking, Keith.
>
Numbers are sharp as razors.  When you use them, you might as well
show your work.

>  > None of these are renewable.  There was an interesting article in New
>  > Scientist in Jan that makes the case we are within 25 years of peak
>  > coal.  Even with breeder reactors you run out of fissionable fuel in
>  > less time than you would think.  Part of the problem is the amount of
>  > energy you have to feed into getting a unit of energy out.  When you
>  > get down to mining granite for uranium, it's close to 100 percent
>  > being fed back.
>
>  How long does it take to run out of uranium?

It's an indeterminate question and it deeply depends on the available
technology.  There is a lot of uranium considering how heavy it is,
but it's rarely concentrated.

>  40 years may not be enough time for fusion,

Why would anyone bother with fusion when there is a nearby working
fusion reactor we can tap is beyond me.

>  but it's enough time to switch to thorium or
>  solar satellites (and probably enough time to build AI, but let's
>  leave that out for now).

It's game over when AIs come along.  The problem is that with the time
resolution we have now, we can't (or rather I can't) distinguish
between the out of control ride down the back side of peak oil and the
singularity takeoff.  If huge amounts of energy from space started
coming on line near in the mid to late 2020s, my bet is that the
project would never be finished because of AI.  On the other hand,
maybe the AIs would need the energy.

Keith


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 21:54:55 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 23:54:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804021416m4c375512i931c4e4def39aa1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F3C21B.60604@pobox.com>
	<d1988d2d0804021416m4c375512i931c4e4def39aa1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804021454s2a3decdp9ae2bebe5d3b1c5c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Why would anyone bother with fusion when there is a nearby working
> fusion reactor we can tap is beyond me.
>

Mmhhh. For the same reason batteries and dynamos make sense even if wall
plugs are there?

Stefano Vaj
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 22:26:03 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:26:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <350233.6738.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200804021726.03282.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 02 April 2008, Tom Nowell wrote:
> ?Today, instead of discoursing in our salons and
> literary journals, we email each other and moan about
> how religous beliefs are stifling biology, or how
> people are too blind to take NBIC technologies
> seriously, or how people are taking the wrong approach
> to energy production. Our knowledge of future
> technologies is based on the early promise of
> fast-developing fields, and they could well develop
> much differently from how we predict.

Tom, you're just identifying the people incorrectly. Look a little 
closer and we're really hard at work here. *cough*

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  2 22:16:05 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:16:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <536532.76241.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee said 

>True and False apply to assertions, or to maps.
>Now you can have a true map, or literal model, of something
>as opposed to false ones. For example, suppose we made a huge
>scale model of the Mississippi valley, except that it contained
>a single but very prominent glaring inaccuracy (say the Platte
>river runs mainly south to north rather than west to east), and
>then we all die.  An alien intelligence that makes its way to
>Earth will, we may say, encounter this scale model, verify
>its "truthfulness" except for that one tributary. So true and
>false models do exist outside of human categories.


Not sure I'm entirely comfortable with the assertion-map analogy but I'll go with it. I have to point out that a map is only one kind of representation of the territory, and one that is produced for a specific purpose: an alien may well not recognise it as being representative, as she is focussing on completely different properties of the territory. A cat for example does not understand the relationship between map symbolism and territory. A Norwegian does not necessarily understand the relationship between English and the reality it supposedly depicts. The relationship between a symbolic system and the referent depend on understanding the syntax. In this example you are depending on the alien sharing the symbolic representation system that the human manufacturers use. A model, any model, necessarily exists within the category system (syntax) which it depends for its meaning.

> We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to
> admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be
> denied as valid by another.

I would not quite go so far. Let's say that there are agreed-upon
conventions of the following sort:  the symbols and word "big"
shall be taken to refer to bodies whose size exceeds the distance
from the sun to the Earth, and "small" is taken to refer or 
describe bodies smaller than the continent of Australia. Then
if one entity asserts "the galaxy is small" then this is simply 
incorrect. The mapping's in the creature's nervous system
have patent inaccuracies in them, and so are what I was 
earlier calling "false maps". 

>> There is no Napoleon out there.
>
>What about Jupiter?  Would you say that there is no Jupiter
>out there? What would that mean? If you were struck by a
>car as you walked across a street, you would not surely
>correct a police officer who came by and asked, "were you
>struck by a car", with something like "you mean, my-perception-
>of-police-officer, that I experienced terrible force applied to
>my-perception-of-my-body by a perception that I had of a
>"car".


Well Jupiter is a human concept. Separable objects are human concepts. Our concepts are what we experience. We don't experience reality "as it is" because whatever objective reality there is gets articulated in finite, differentiated objects before it hits our brains. I don't claim I'm an anti-realist (I consistently fail to align myself with any philosophical school, ever since my brief infatuation with Hegel ended). The realist-antirealist dichotomy is just as naive as either taken on their own. All I say is this: Jupiter exists in the human mind, it's a semantic articulation of a particular experience which we then use to filter other experiences into. We can't step outside the human mind and know what reality is like outside of subjectivity, or outside of the human conceptual structure, but we can at least recognise that our thoughts are only one possible articulation of that which exists beyond thought. This is not to say we should relegate all our
 ideas and perceptions to the ontological scrapheap...but, their utility needs to be recognised as not being more than utility.


>The extent that they use the same word with different meanings
>or different definitions is the extent that the word or concept
>loses its utility in communication for us.  (Since you used "people"
>without scare quotes, I guess I can use "us" without them either.)


Absolutely...and this is at least half the problem that we run into when discussing abstract (and even some not so abstract) ideas. People don't define the words they're using and then people misunderstand the actual intent of what is stated. 


>Do you also think that the aforesaid police officer finds it irrelevant
>how questions are answered?  Do you really conduct your life in
>such a way that how we answer questions such as "Who was the
>first president of the United States?", or "what is the largest planet
>of the solar system?", or "when exactly did JFK die?" is irrelevant?


To be frank, not one of these has even a minor impact on my life. They're all supremely irrelevant to me. I wonder sometimes whether we'd all be happier (and conducting our lives in better ways) if we didn't focus so much on things like this which have no bearing on us.

BUT my statement was referring to the question of Napolean (this is the problem when you break up a paragraph into its constituent lines...the context and therefore meaning is lost). And yes, I still think that whether Napolean "is" the nutter before us now just because he believes he is, or forever ceased to exist hundreds of years ago, is ultimately unimportant...because whatever we give as an answer makes no difference to anything. We might as well debate whether yellow is lighter than pink for all the importance the answer we reach will have.








      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 22:52:24 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:52:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>
References: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804021552x33b443cax6818e960a15d7d98@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:48 AM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at yahoo.it> wrote:
> Tom Nowell ha scritto:
>  > 1)reinstate the draft and have young men truck the
>  > stuff through Iraq much like their dads did for
>  > Vietnam - not an electorally popular move, but making
>  > strong use of America's resources.
>
>  So, you would substitute volunteers with conscripts and professional
>  with amateurs?
>  This also have a cost: political for the draft and political and
>  economic for all the added deads due to a not professional and highly
>  trained force.

Your bias is effecting your **logic**, such as it is.  Volunteers or
conscripts, they get the same training.  Neither can therefore be
characterized as **amateurs**.

In contrast, try this.  How intelligent can the "volunteers" be?  How
would they compare, intelligence-wise, to the pool from which
conscripts would be drawn?

Full disclosure-wise regarding my own bias let me say that you'd have
to be a fucking moron to volunteer for the army or marines right now.
And the recent lowering of the standards for enlistment bears me out.
So to answer my own questions above:

Volunteers = testosterone-charged, youthfully-naive,
mentally-defective provincials;
Conscripts = persons of average intelligence.

Sorry to rain on your sorry parade.



>  > 2)Having allies...

                                      .<snip>
>  Do you remember that the France simply bought the votes of the African
>  nations in the UN to oppose the invasion?

What are you smoking, Mirco?  France, a permanent member of the
security council, has veto power, it doesn't need to buy anybody's
vote.
<snip>


>  The NATO countries are forced to add more soldier in Afghanistan,
>  because if the coalition fail there will be a political disaster for
>  all.

Says who?  Don"t attempt an answer, you're not qualified.

The Kool-aid drinkers who absorb uncritically the view of those who
lobbied the US into this mess, and want to keep the US there, and who
have been brazen serial liars and comprehensively incompetent.

Anyone with a fragment of intelligence knew this years ago.  What's
your excuse, Mirco?

<snip>


>... more possibility of meddling around for internal political reason.
>  And a few parties were not interested in helping the US and many were
>  interested in helping themselves and the US enemies.

I see, advising someone not to drive over a cliff is treason.  How
many different kinds of fool can you be, Mirco?
No need to answer that.


>  You go in war with the intelligence you have, not with the intelligence
>  you want or will have a few years after.

That pretty much ends this conversation.

You should not be wasting the time of folks on the list, Mirco.  That
could be better spent seeking and receiving professional help for you
mental condition.

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Men occasionally stumble over the truth,
    but most pick themselves up and hurry off
    as if nothing had happened."
                    Winston Churchill


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr  3 00:30:30 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:30:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
References: <790654.8385.qm@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><47F37286.5070806@yahoo.it>
	<a6a17bd40804021552x33b443cax6818e960a15d7d98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02eb01c89521$f153a7b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jeff, who is normally quite a nice guy, takes a very harsh line
all of a sudden:

> Mirco Romanato wrote
> 
>>  So, you would substitute volunteers with conscripts
>>  and professional with amateurs?
>>  This also have a cost: political for the draft and political
>>  and economic for all the added deads due to a not
>>  professional and highly trained force.
> 
> Your bias is effecting [affecting] your **logic**, such as it is.
> Volunteers or conscripts, they get the same training.  Neither
> can therefore be characterized as **amateurs**.

In theory, perhaps, and maybe your point would at this time 
naturally take place in practice. But the Korean War showed
how pitifully drafted soldiers can be---I suspect that indeed
the training of the more motivated "professional" probably
turns out to be more effective.

And of course, you realize that your *own* bias may be
affecting your logic if it's true that his is affecting his. (Actually,
it's not a matter of logic at all---see below.)

> In contrast, try this.  How intelligent can the "volunteers" be?  How
> would they compare, intelligence-wise, to the pool from which
> conscripts would be drawn?
> 
> Full disclosure-wise regarding my own bias let me say that you'd have
> to be a fucking moron to volunteer for the army or marines right now.

My goodness! You can't be serious, or at least you must be
trying to speak figuratively. BTW, "moron" originated as
a technical term for very low intelligence, so literally it happens
that the U.S. at least never enlists morons. 

<skipping over many points that I don't have time to address>

>>  The NATO countries are forced to add more soldier in Afghanistan,
>>  because if the coalition fail there will be a political disaster for all.
> 
> Says who?  Don"t attempt an answer, you're not qualified.

Why is he any less qualified that anyone else? It's necessary in my
opinion for us to, as Eliezer says, "trust content, not authority". 
In other words, the qualifications or presumed authoritativeness
of any speaker need not be held against what is said.

> The Kool-aid drinkers who absorb uncritically the view of those who
> lobbied the US into this mess, and want to keep the US there, and who
> have been brazen serial liars and comprehensively incompetent.

Well, I don't agree, and neither does some (unknown but non-negligible
people on this list).

> Anyone with a fragment of intelligence knew this years ago.  What's
> your excuse, Mirco?

You imply that those of us who disagree with you have not even
a fragment of intelligence?  What we have here is a conflict of 
visions, see Thomas Sowell's book, "Conflict of Visions" by an
admitted conservative, or  Jonathan Haidt's nice video

http://www.newyorker.com/online/video/conference/2007/haidt

who is an admitted liberal.  They document what I've known since
I was twelve:  among those who have ideological differences, the
explanation is *not* that one side is morally corrupt, or stupid, or
less educated, or has worse judgment, or is less logical, or is more
rational, or anything of the sort.

The most that can so far reliably be said is that you contend that
the other side is *wrong*. And it is entirely possible to be absolutely
correct in so saying, though, of course, at this time we cannot
objectively establish who is wrong (or if any side is entirely right).

> I see, advising someone not to drive over a cliff is treason.  How
> many different kinds of fool can you be, Mirco?

The list rules explicitly prohibit such ad hominem attacks. Even a
quick superficial examination of your sentence here shows that, like
most other personal attacks, it has no redeeming content whatsoever.

> You should not be wasting the time of folks on the list, Mirco.  That
> could be better spent seeking and receiving professional help for you
> mental condition.

I really am disappointed, Jeff.  I've never heard you go over the edge
like this.  Please try to show respect, feigned or not, with those who
disagree with you.

Lee



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 04:09:50 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 00:09:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] solar cell innovation
In-Reply-To: <200803310430.m2V4UQLd007212@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200803310326.m2V3Pk5b010875@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<200803310430.m2V4UQLd007212@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240804022109r3e6e0dbdtb9259902e00a2543@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 12:03 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>  Speaking of roads, we could make them glassy smooth, so as to obviate
>  inefficient rugged duty vehicles for most applications.  This enables
>  vehicles that are much lighter, with light duty suspension.  It isn't that
>  hard to maintain roads to glassy smoothness.

It would help enforce your proposed speed limit - there's not much
traction on "glassy smooth" roads. :)

You should visit the northeast corridor, we have difficulty keeping
asphalt free of potholes.  I'm sure you could employ all the
future-science you could dream up, but the plumbers will still tear it
up to install plumbing after the surface is perfect -- and throw a few
lumps of asphalt in the trench to replace their divot.

I agree with you about freight hauling being an area for
consideration.  I disagree that passenger hauling is worth the effort.
 We should be moving more knowledge workers to virtual presence and
let them stay in their home offices.  I'd like to travel as a luxury
rather than a requirement of employment.


From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr  3 04:26:27 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 00:26:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> Plan B is that something like 90% of humans starve.

I don't think power satellites are the only hope the human race has, and I
certainly hope not!  Earlier I listed 5 technologies:

1) Coal
2) Tar Sands
3) Oil Shale
4) Methane Clathrate,
5) Nuclear Fission

I believe all of these are far more feasible than power satellites, even
Methane Clathrate. I know you said they weren't renewable, but if you want
to be that way neither is solar power. Let's just say they would all last a
very long time.

The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of trillion
dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn for sure that the
idea just isn't going to work. The best ideas are those where you can start
small and learn by doing; and then when you really develop some skill in
the area you can scale it all up with some confidence you can make it all
work. With Power satellites you've got to start gigantic from day one, and
that seldom works out very well for a radically new technology; but I
hope I'm wrong.

  John K Clark










From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 04:50:47 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 21:50:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:26 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>
> > Plan B is that something like 90% of humans starve.
>
>  I don't think power satellites are the only hope the human race has, and I
>  certainly hope not!  Earlier I listed 5 technologies:
>
>
>  1) Coal

According to New Scientist, 25 years till peak coal.

>  2) Tar Sands

Being exploited now.  They would benefit hugely from power sats to
supply upgrade hydrogen.

>  3) Oil Shale

Environmental problems you would not believe.  Biggest problem is the
tails are larger than the hole they came out of.  Second biggest
problem, they leach alkali.

>  4) Methane Clathrate,

Nobody has an idea of how to capture it.

>  5) Nuclear Fission

Every version I know about can be tapped for neutrons.  Combine that
with 100s to thousands of tons of DU, and it's a very serious problem.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301

>  I believe all of these are far more feasible than power satellites, even
>  Methane Clathrate. I know you said they weren't renewable, but if you want
>  to be that way neither is solar power. Let's just say they would all last a
>  very long time.

If something like power sats don't pick up the load, you may live to
see peak coal, and that's the one that will last longest.

>  The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of trillion
>  dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn for sure that the
>  idea just isn't going to work.

2 trillion is on a par with the Iraq war.  It's got to be a better
investment than that.  There is no reason to think it won't work, the
physics is more than 200 years old.

>  The best ideas are those where you can start
>  small and learn by doing; and then when you really develop some skill in
>  the area you can scale it all up with some confidence you can make it all
>  work. With Power satellites you've got to start gigantic from day one, and
>  that seldom works out very well for a radically new technology; but I
>  hope I'm wrong.

It depends.  The main problem is transport to GEO, the rest of the
risk is fairly low.  The current choices are space elevator, lasers
and rockets in order both of decreasing efficiency and risk.  And
yeah, it's big.  But so is the problem.  I sized the space elevator to
build enough in one year to displace the US coal fired plants.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 05:17:35 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 22:17:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the bee problem and a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804022217l6db040cdr5dd8bcce0de3bbf8@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
Your comment gave me an interesting idea however.  We could look at the
possibility of breeding alternate pollinators, possibly non-flyers, such as
some hardy type of roach for instance.  They stay nearby, they breed like
mormons, and for all their undeserved reputation as diseased carriers, I
have never seen a sick roach.  If we develop crawling pollinators we might
have less of a problem with their being smashed on car windows and might be
easier to keep them healthy.
>>>

*Did you just say, "Breed like Mormons?" : )  *Why, you should have written,
"breed like 19th century Mormons!" lol  I just spent almost a full week in
Salt Lake City and I did not see any mega-sized families.  I remember as a
kid fairly often seeing 8+ child Mormon families but now five offspring
seems the "really big family average."  I recall huge families where
resources (like food) were spread way too thin and so I think this is a very
good thing.

Spike wrote:
What would really be cool is if we could somehow process the roaches into
food at the end of the pollination season, or perhaps feed them to the hogs.
Of course it does have some psychological factors (...fruit trees black with
creepy roaches, ewww...) but we will overcome that hangup once we get
sufficiently hungry.
>>>
My mom would have a heart attack from sheer horror if your plan was
implemented...  But what about using flies?  I have seen them going after
nectar and they tend to "breed like flies!"  I think this may be the wave of
the future.  It has to be better than using roaches.

http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/pollinators/flies.shtml

John  : )
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr  3 05:38:35 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:38:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] the bee problem and a possible solution
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804022217l6db040cdr5dd8bcce0de3bbf8@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <8CA61D94FCDCAA0-EDC-2A20@WEBMAIL-MB01.sysops.aol.com>
	<200804011839.m31IdJPp018701@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<2d6187670804022217l6db040cdr5dd8bcce0de3bbf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080403003717.0247cdd8@satx.rr.com>

At 10:17 PM 4/2/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:
>Spike:
>What would really be cool is if we could somehow process the roaches into
>food at the end of the pollination season, or perhaps feed them to the hogs.
>Of course it does have some psychological factors (...fruit trees black with
>creepy roaches, ewww...) but we will overcome that hangup once we get
>sufficiently hungry.
> >>>
>My mom would have a heart attack from sheer horror if your plan was 
>implemented...  But what about using flies?  I have seen them going 
>after nectar and they tend to "breed like flies!"  I think this may 
>be the wave of the future.  It has to be better than using roaches.

I'd suggest using penguins:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dfWzp7rYR4

Damien Broderick




From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Apr  3 14:10:10 2008
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:10:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>


On 3 Apr, 2008, at 0:26, John K Clark wrote:
> The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of  
> trillion
> dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn for sure  
> that the
> idea just isn't going to work



Citations, please? :P


B
--
Brent Neal
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>





From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 15:22:04 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:22:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: IEEE Wireless Hive Networks Conference - Call for Paper
In-Reply-To: <AES459196.224473.A12071479314297366528@bmsmail3.ieee.org>
References: <A12071479700221789572.hkeithhenson@GMAIL.COM>
	<AES459196.224473.A12071479314297366528@bmsmail3.ieee.org>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804030822pe4c29e9ic0820945d7b42b71@mail.gmail.com>

As if Elizer didn't have enough to worry about . . .

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <conference-services at ieee.org>
Date: Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 4:00 AM
Subject: IEEE Wireless Hive Networks Conference - Call for Paper

Wireless Hive Networks (WHN) are local communities of wireless
 devices, in potential volumes dwarfing memory chips, associated with items on
 warehouse shelves, biomedical samples, border motion detectors, etc. ZigBee is
 an example of hive protocols. This conference addresses the challenges facing
 the organic semiconductors "pennies per device" production, integrated logic,
 ROM, antenna and battery design, and integration of embedded platforms,
 applications and wireless interfaces.

snip

 Sponsored by IEEE Central Texas Section, IEEE-USA and IEEE New Technology
 Directions Committee

 Technical Co-sponsors: IEEE Communications Society


From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr  3 15:32:24 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c895a0$25405c20$07f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> Wrote:

> According to New Scientist, 25 years till peak coal.

Maybe, maybe not; although I admit New Scientist is not the only one 
to make this claim. Similar arguments are made in the book "The Coal
Question: An Inquiry Concerning the Progress of the Nation, and the
Probable Exhaustion of our Coal-mines" written by the English economist
and logician William Stanley Jevons. The interesting thing is that this 
book was written in 1865.

Me:
>> 2) Tar Sands

You:
>Being exploited now.  They would benefit hugely from power sats
> to supply upgrade hydrogen.

I don't know what that means, but I do know that Canada's reserves
of Tar Sands approximately equal to the world's total reserves of
conventional crude oil, and Venezuela may have more reserves than
Canada.

Me:
 >>Oil Shale

You:
> Environmental problems you would not believe.

Bigger environmental problems than Power Satellites? I'll tell you
one thing, even if they turns out to be totally benign environmentalists
will fight you every inch of the way.

> Biggest problem is the tails are larger than the hole they came out of.

Mountains are easier to make than power satellites.

Me:
>> Methane Clathrate

You: 
> Nobody has an idea of how to capture it.

Nobody has even tried because until just a very few years ago nobody
knew it existed.

Me:
>>  5) Nuclear Fission

You:
> Every version I know about can be tapped for neutrons.

Yes, that is indeed a serious problem, possibly a lethal problem. If 
environmentalists don't get out of the way on what to do with this stuff 
they could kill us all.

>  There is no reason to think it won't work, the physics is more than
> 200  years old.

Well 103 years old, you need the Photoelectric effect; but nobody is 
saying power satellites are physically imposable, the question is 
are they economically rational? I have my doubts.

Ok maybe 200 after all, I wonder if it would be better to use a
parabolic reflector and a heat engine?

 John K Clark








From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr  3 17:38:24 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:38:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> 2 trillion is on a par with the Iraq war.  It's got to be a better
investment than that.

Yea but so is digging holes and then filling them up again.

>There is a lot of uranium considering how heavy it is, but it's
> rarely concentrated.

If we run out of uranium you can always switch to Thorium, you can make
reactors (and bombs) with that too and it's much more common than uranium,
about as common as lead in fact. Or you could make breeder rectors and use
plutonium, but that scares the hell out of me.

> The current choices are space elevator, lasers and rockets in
> order both  of decreasing efficiency and risk.

If you had a space elevator then power satellites would certainly make
sense because you'd have a much better way to get that energy down to earth
and could forget about those stupid microwaves that were always the
weak link in the idea.

 John K Clark






From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 18:01:43 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:01:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <001801c895a0$25405c20$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<001801c895a0$25405c20$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804031101g4b2fb6d9k9781640c923c58f6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:32 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> Wrote:
>
>  > According to New Scientist, 25 years till peak coal.
>
>  Maybe, maybe not; although I admit New Scientist is not the only one
>  to make this claim. Similar arguments are made in the book "The Coal
>  Question: An Inquiry Concerning the Progress of the Nation, and the
>  Probable Exhaustion of our Coal-mines" written by the English economist
>  and logician William Stanley Jevons. The interesting thing is that this
>  book was written in 1865.

Well, there is no question they are exhausted now.

>  Me:
>  >> 2) Tar Sands
>
>  You:
>
> >Being exploited now.  They would benefit hugely from power sats
>  > to supply upgrade hydrogen.
>
>  I don't know what that means,

That stuff is too thick to pump because the high hydrogen hydrocarbons
are gone.  If you are going to use it as liquid fuels, you have to add
hydrogen, much as is done converting coal to liquid fuels.  The
problem is making the hydrogen, it uses up a substantial fraction of
the energy in the input material to make it and about doubles the CO2
released for a given amount of transport.

I really wish that knowledge of basic chemistry and industrial
processes was more common on this list.  It freely available.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_sands

>  but I do know that Canada's reserves
>  of Tar Sands approximately equal to the world's total reserves of
>  conventional crude oil, and Venezuela may have more reserves than
>  Canada.

You have to deflated these sources by half because it takes a lot of
the energy in the deposits to get them out.  There are good reasons
they have not been exploited before. Open the article above and go
down to:

Global direct effects

Input energy

Producing synthetic crude takes so much energy that they are about to
put in a 2.2 GW nuclear plant to supply some of it.

>  Me:
>   >>Oil Shale
>
>  You:
>
> > Environmental problems you would not believe.
>
>  Bigger environmental problems than Power Satellites?

Yes.

>  I'll tell you
>  one thing, even if they turns out to be totally benign environmentalists
>  will fight you every inch of the way.

You expect that.  It's less expected to find opposition here.

snip
>
>  Me:
>  >>  5) Nuclear Fission
>
>  You:
>
> > Every version I know about can be tapped for neutrons.
>
>  Yes, that is indeed a serious problem, possibly a lethal problem. If
>  environmentalists don't get out of the way on what to do with this stuff
>  they could kill us all.

I don't think you understand the problem.  Neutrons plus depleted
uranium equals weapons grade plutonium better than any made in the
cold war.  And there is at least one way to make it into weapons
that's so easy a well funded street gang could do it.  You don't need
complicated electronics, you can fire one with a fuse.  We may have to
build reactors in every country of the world.  There may be some
really drastic side effects.

>  >  There is no reason to think it won't work, the physics is more than
>  > 200  years old.
>
>  Well 103 years old, you need the Photoelectric effect; but nobody is
>  saying power satellites are physically imposable, the question is
>  are they economically rational? I have my doubts.

That's a number question.  I have put some numbers on it.  If you can
build a moving cable mechanical elevator then a power sat that masses
less than 3 kg/kW repays the lift energy to GEO in a single day of
operation.  If it can be built at all, the elevator lifts it own mass
every 50-100 days.

These numbers by themselves don't make the project economically
rational, but they indicate more analysis is worth doing.

On the other hand, "economically rational" is context dependent.  If
we knew a K/T class asteroid was going to hit in a few years . . . .
The energy problem is in the same gigadeath class.

>  Ok maybe 200 after all, I wonder if it would be better to use a
>  parabolic reflector and a heat engine?

It might be, it's not obvious.  If you have access to moon rock or
asteroid material for heat sink fluid it would help.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 18:17:17 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:17:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
	<47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:
The problem children you describe are not representative of the entire
generation. I assure you that there are many good kids out there and they
far outnumber the evil little devils described here. However, you are right
that this is changing. Educated people are not having children at the same
rate as the grown-up versions of these problem children. These kids are
going out, getting pregnant at 14-19 years old, having several children.
They are unable to guide them and nurture them into responsible lives so
they repeat the cycle. Meanwhile, those who are well educated go on to
college, get a career started and then MAY have 1 or 2 children when they
are over 25.
>>>

You are going to just love this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=upyewL0oaWA


John  ; )
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From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Thu Apr  3 20:58:38 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:58:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>
	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek> <47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>
	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>
	<47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
	<2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F544FE.4040905@insightbb.com>

That's terrific! It would be funnier if it wasn't so close to reality!
Fortunately for us, genetics includes recessive traits and a great 
amount of variability so that some of those descendants can still become 
doctors and scientists!


John Grigg wrote:
> Kevin Freels wrote:
> The problem children you describe are not representative of the entire 
> generation. I assure you that there are many good kids out there and 
> they far outnumber the evil little devils described here. However, you 
> are right that this is changing. Educated people are not having 
> children at the same rate as the grown-up versions of these problem 
> children. These kids are going out, getting pregnant at 14-19 years 
> old, having several children. They are unable to guide them and 
> nurture them into responsible lives so they repeat the cycle. 
> Meanwhile, those who are well educated go on to college, get a career 
> started and then MAY have 1 or 2 children when they are over 25.
> >>>
>  
> You are going to just love this...
>  
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=upyewL0oaWA
>  
>  
> John  ; )
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   
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From amara at amara.com  Thu Apr  3 20:33:52 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:33:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] NASA Associate Administrator Stern resigns
Message-ID: <p06230901c41aef0abbbc@[10.0.10.217]>

... and follow up ...

:-(
Amara

----------------------------------------------------------------

PLANETARY EXPLORATION NEWSLETTER
Volume 2, Number 19 (April 3, 2008)

PEN Website: http://planetarynews.org
Editor: Mark V. Sykes
Co-Editors: Matt Balme, Nic Richmond
Email: pen_editor at psi.edu

o---------------------------------------------------------------------o

SPECIAL: A FAREWELL MESSAGE FROM ALAN STERN, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR
FOR NASA'S SCIENCE MISSION DIRECTORATE, NASA HEADQUARTERS

As you probably know by now, I have announced my resignation as
NASA's Associate Administrator for SMD and will be departing at the
end of this week. Dr. Ed Weiler will assume this post on Monday
April 7.

I assure you that my decision to resign came only after several
months of hard thought and reflection about the consequences of
spiraling mission costs that SMD could not control. In the end, this
became an important matter of principle that trumped even my boss,
NASA Administrator Mike Griffin's desire for me to stay and my regard
for him.

I want you to know that I remain highly impressed with Mike Griffin,
and I am as excited as ever at the fundamental progress he is making
in renewing human space flight toward a better future centered on the
exploration of the solar system.

In the past year, SMD accomplished a great deal-making the first word
in SMD-Science-first in our priorities and first in our portfolio.
This resulted in R&A increases and process improvements, new Earth
science and lunar science initiatives, expanded suborbital programs,
and multiple new mission starts in each of our four science
Divisions. I believe we also demonstrated the benefits of management
discipline, transparency, and innovation to advancing the Earth and
space sciences within NASA, and we began demonstrating how SMD can be
more relevant to American society.

During my tenure at NASA I met many, many fine people and came to
realize that few outside NASA realize just how talented, dedicated,
and relentlessly hard working the Headquarters staff and management
team is.

I am extremely proud of the work done by the staff of SMD and the
reforms to project and processes that we undertook. I want to extend
my thanks to SMD's staff, its Division Directors and their deputies,
and to the dedicated leadership of the SMD front office team, for
that hard work. I am also proud of the very strong relationship we
re-forged with the scientific community.

As SMD now moves forward, I want to tell you that Ed Weiler is an
incredibly talented, energetic, dedicated manager and civil servant
who cares deeply about science.  You can rest assured that with Ed at
the helm, SMD's future is in capable hands.

But Ed will need your help to maintain the positive pace of change
going forward in SMD and its research and mission portfolio. It is my
opinion that this can be done only by carefully controlling mission
costs. I ask you to work closely with Ed for the continued betterment
of SMD and NASA.

I'll close now by thanking all of you who have written of your
support in the past week, and by saying that I look forward to seeing
you in the future we make for ourselves.

Alan Stern


***********************************************************************
*
* The Planetary Exploration Newsletter is issued approximately weekly.
* Current and back issues are available at
*
* http://planetarynews.org
*
* To subscribe, go to http://planetarynews.org/pen_subscribe.html
*
* To unsubscribe, go to http://planetarynews.org/pen_unsubscribe.html
*
* Please send all replies and submissions to pen_editor at psi.edu.
* Announcements and other messages should be brief with links to URLs
* for extended information, including detailed descriptions for job
* announcements. Go to the PEN website for submission directions.
************************************************************************

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 21:18:08 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:18:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] NASA Associate Administrator Stern resigns
In-Reply-To: <p06230901c41aef0abbbc@10.0.10.217>
References: <p06230901c41aef0abbbc@10.0.10.217>
Message-ID: <580930c20804031418p6f2a7095yd82308df9cb30b5a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:33 PM, Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
> ... and follow up ...
>
> :-(

I cannot really say that I understand, amongst all the feel-good
statements, why he resigns, what he really thinks, what this is going
to change at NASA, or for that matter anything else.

Stefano Vaj


From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr  4 01:14:31 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:14:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the really important urgent issues
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080330013149.02370398@satx.rr.com>	<1206902792.19732.1879.camel@hayek>
	<47EFE957.70200@pobox.com>	<8CA60DA2569207D-FA4-21C1@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com>	<a6a17bd40803311310y4ae55c7h728d60b98f56f562@mail.gmail.com>	<8CA61A16380C40E-FC8-271A@webmail-mf02.sysops.aol.com>	<47F2503F.2050508@insightbb.com>
	<2d6187670804031117p54d288c3s15813ed840aacba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA64085EF87B82-EB0-319A@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>

Yes, that little clip shows just how disgenesis is bringing down the lowest common denomenator even further. Combined with the general relation between lawlesness, violence etc and IQ. I think the little darlings that I described may be the norm in the future. Now that's a depressing thought. It's also the main reason I avidly defend the rights of people to participate in stupid, dangerous and life threatening activities and take which ever chemical substances they want.
Need I say more?
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 19:17
Subject: Re: [ExI] the really important urgent issues



>>>

?

You are going to just?love this...

?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=upyewL0oaWA

?

?

John? ; )





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr  4 01:29:34 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:29:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>

This is why all military systems need more than one failsafe before firing and?should never be fully autonomous. The last failsafe should always being?a human (even that wasn't good enough in this case). I'd like to think?it's also a pretty good?example of why an AGI will be bad. Not because it will use weapon like this, but just because it could cause major damage with the systems it may have access to. Damage caused not through desire or design, Just because it can. Or more correctly, because we didn't account for it doing something we didn't think about.

Undoubtably this tradgedy is down to a design flaw somewhere, HW or SW. I just hope the lesson is learned.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:55
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI



Sorry guys, but I found this just too compelling to pass up.

Robot Cannon Kills 9, Wounds 14
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki.html

Best, Jeff Davis

"White people are clever, but they are not wise."
          Ishi, the last of the Yahi nation
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 02:51:13 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:51:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 03 April 2008, Brent Neal wrote:
> On 3 Apr, 2008, at 0:26, John K Clark wrote:
> > The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of ?
> > trillion dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn
> > for sure that the idea just isn't going to work
>
> Citations, please? :P

I second this motion. Last month I visited UT Austin, they have a lab 
with kids my age launching rockets and mini satellites on the cehap 
(and they are dead broke); adding in power-sat stuff seems more like a 
matter of knowledge than 'trillions of dollars'.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 05:38:37 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:38:37 +1100
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:

>  Undoubtably this tradgedy is down to a design flaw somewhere, HW or SW. I
> just hope the lesson is learned.

Humans are also subject to HW and SW flaws. In the final analysis, you
have to take a risk in trusting someone or something.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 13:59:19 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 06:59:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:38 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>
> > 2 trillion is on a par with the Iraq war.  It's got to be a better
>  investment than that.
>
>  Yea but so is digging holes and then filling them up again.

74 million b/day x $100 /b is 7.4 billion a day.  Times 365 that's
$2.7 trillion a year.  I don't think the investment is close to two
trillion, but if it is, it's still a good investment.

>  >There is a lot of uranium considering how heavy it is, but it's
>  > rarely concentrated.
>
>  If we run out of uranium you can always switch to Thorium, you can make
>  reactors (and bombs) with that too and it's much more common than uranium,
>  about as common as lead in fact. Or you could make breeder rectors and use
>  plutonium, but that scares the hell out of me.

Why does it scare you?  Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium
without Pu 240 in it, the stuff isn't suitable for bombs.  (The 240
makes it detonate prematurely, with much less yield.)  The problem is
you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.

>  > The current choices are space elevator, lasers and rockets in
>  > order both  of decreasing efficiency and risk.
>
>  If you had a space elevator then power satellites would certainly make
>  sense because you'd have a much better way to get that energy down to earth
>  and could forget about those stupid microwaves that were always the
>  weak link in the idea.

I have been up on the subject since the mid 1970s and microwave
transmission was never considered a problem.  Why do you think it is?
 How do you think the space elevator could be used in the place of
microwaves?  (Making antimatter and bring it down in a bag is a
*joke.*)  Even if it could be, an elevator has to come down close to
the equator and there isn't much demand for power there.

Keith


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:20:03 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:20:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<86E8EE0E-8284-4170-8C8E-9CF9FE577227@freeshell.org>
	<200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 03 April 2008, Brent Neal wrote:
>  > On 3 Apr, 2008, at 0:26, John K Clark wrote:
>  > > The trouble with power satellites is it could take a couple of
>  > > trillion dollars just to build a prototype and then you could learn
>  > > for sure that the idea just isn't going to work
>  >
>  > Citations, please? :P
>
>  I second this motion. Last month I visited UT Austin, they have a lab
>  with kids my age launching rockets and mini satellites on the cehap
>  (and they are dead broke); adding in power-sat stuff seems more like a
>  matter of knowledge than 'trillions of dollars'.

It's not a small project, my guess is on a par with going to the moon
the first time.  That puts it in the high hundreds of billions due to
the order of magnitude inflation since those days.

I don't even know which of the three currently proposed transport
methods will work out.  The space elevator has the best return on
energy, but it takes a massive orbital cleanup project plus developing
strong enough nanotube fibers and ways to recover from a cut cable.
Since the output is very low cost energy that can be fed back into the
launch mechanism, requiring a lot of launch energy only delays the
point at which the project starts paying for itself by a few months.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:35:02 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:35:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Humans are also subject to HW and SW flaws. In the final analysis, you
have to take a risk in trusting someone or something.
>>>

But I think at our current fairly low level of technology in this area, that
we are better off for now trusting in humans, rather than fully autonomous
machines.  I realize a "healthy balancing act" is what military planners are
probably hoping to develop.

Alex wrote:
This is why all military systems need more than one failsafe before firing
and should never be fully autonomous. The last failsafe should always
being a human (even that wasn't good enough in this case).
>>>

I believe the time will come (within several decades or less) when we will
see fully autonomous and very lethal weapons systems (especially flying
attack drones, undersea attack drones, ground robots, etc.) being a fairly
common sight on the battlefield.  A problem with at least some failsafes is
that they could be hacked into by a techno savvy enemy and then your
weapon(s) are turned against you.

I found it rather interesting when I learned the maker of the popular robot
vacuum, "Roomba," is making a very nasty looking military robot.  I wonder
if they will be building a home security version... lol

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/roomba-maker-un.html

John Grigg
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:42:07 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:42:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804040742p78eea3c2j7ede415e93b1bb2a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
>  Why does it scare you?  Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium
>  without Pu 240 in it, the stuff isn't suitable for bombs.  (The 240
>  makes it detonate prematurely, with much less yield.)  The problem is
>  you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.
>
>


No. You mean 'the stuff isn't *ideal* for bombs'.

It still makes a pretty big nuclear explosion and terrorists aren't
perfectionists.


Quote:----------------------

Higher concentrations of Pu-240 can result in pre-detonation of the
weapon, significantly reducing yield and reliability. For the
production of weapons-grade plutonium with lower Pu-240
concentrations, the fuel rods in a reactor have to be changed
frequently, about every four months or less.

Some nuclear weapons are typically designed so that a pulse of
neutrons will start the nuclear chain reaction at the optimum moment
for maximum yield; background neutrons from plutonium-240 can set off
the reaction prematurely, and with reactor-grade plutonium the
probability of such "pre-initiation" is large. Pre-initiation can
substantially reduce the explosive yield, since the weapon may blow
itself apart and thereby cut short the chain reaction that releases
the energy.

Nevertheless, even if pre-initiation occurs at the worst possible
moment (when the material first becomes compressed enough to sustain a
chain reaction) the explosive yield of even a relatively simple
first-generation nuclear device would be of the order of one or a few
kilotons. While this yield is referred to as the "fizzle yield," a
one-kiloton bomb would still have a radius of destruction roughly
one-third that of the Hiroshima weapon, making it a potentially
fearsome explosive. Regardless of how high the concentration of
troublesome isotopes is, the yield would not be less.

A successful test was conducted in 1962, which used reactor-grade
plutonium in the nuclear explosive in place of weapon-grade plutonium.
The yield was less than 20 kilotons. This test was conducted to obtain
nuclear design information concerning the feasibility of using
reactor-grade plutonium as the nuclear explosive material. The test
confirmed that reactor-grade plutonium could be used to make a nuclear
explosive. This fact was declassified in July 1977. The release of
additional information was deemed important to enhance public
awareness of nuclear proliferation issues associated with
reactor-grade plutonium that can be separated during reprocessing of
spent commercial reactor fuel. The United States maintains an
extensive nuclear test data base and predictive capabilities. This
information, combined with the results of this low yield test, reveals
that weapons can be constructed with reactor-grade plutonium. Prior to
the 1970's, there were only two terms in use to define plutonium
grades: weapon-grade (no more than 7 percent Pu-240) and reactor-grade
(greater than 7 percent Pu-240). In the early 1970's, the term
fuel-grade (approximately 7 percent to 19 percent Pu-240) came into
use, which shifted the reactor-grade definition 19 percent or greater
Pu-240.

-----------------------------------

Ref:  <http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/pu-isotope.htm>



BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 14:50:07 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:50:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
	<f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804040750h3e58eecenc4616c15cd78486a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:35 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> I believe the time will come (within several decades or less) when we will
> see fully autonomous and very lethal weapons systems (especially flying
> attack drones, undersea attack drones, ground robots, etc.) being a fairly
> common sight on the battlefield.



Hey, a few of these could solve Alex's problem of defending his
property against feral youth!   ;)


BillK


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Fri Apr  4 14:39:29 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:39:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <47F63DA1.9030006@lightlink.com>

ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> This is why all military systems need more than one failsafe before 
> firing and should never be fully autonomous. The last failsafe should 
> always being a human (even that wasn't good enough in this case). I'd 
> like to think it's also a pretty good example of why an AGI will be bad. 
> Not because it will use weapon like this, but just because it could 
> cause major damage with the systems it may have access to. Damage caused 
> not through desire or design, Just because it can. Or more correctly, 
> because we didn't account for it doing something we didn't think about.

As I have argued at length elsewhere, the conclusion you just arrived at 
  - that this is "a pretty good example of why an AGI will be bad" - is 
critically dependent on many assumptions about what the architecture of 
an AGI would look like.  The default assumption that everyone makes 
about how an AGI will be controlled (namely, that it will be controlled 
by a 'Goal-Stack drive mechanism') would support your conclusion.

However, this GS drive mechanism is not only a bad way to drive an 
intelligent system, it may not even scale to the type of system that we 
refer to as an AGI.  That means that there may *never* be such a thing 
as a real, human-level, autonomous AGI system that is govern by a 
Goal-Stack architecture.

By contrast, the type of drive mechanism that I have referred to in the 
past as a 'Motivational-Emotional System' would be immune to such problems.

You know those human beings that you wanted to use as the last failsafe? 
  They use an MES drive mechanism, but this particular type fo MES has 
some obvious design flaws which are clearly not enough to make humans 
immune to the problem of going on a rampage.  But that means that in our 
experience we have *never* encountered any type of intelligent system 
whose design was so good that all individuals of that type could be said 
to be "immune to such problems".  Because we never see such intelligent 
systems, we assume that it is ridiculous for anyone to make the claim 
that an AGI design could be "immune to such problems".

Nevertheless, this is exactly what is claimed:  it is possible to build 
an AGI in such a way that it would be not only as safe as the most 
trustworthy human being you old imagine, but a great deal more so.  And 
that goes for both the safety problem (unintentional mistakes) and the 
friendliness problem (intentional melevolence).

You can find lengthier discussions of these issues in the archives of 
the AGI and Singularity lists, but I am also in the process of 
collecting all this material into a more accessible form.



Richard Loosemore





> Undoubtably this tradgedy is down to a design flaw somewhere, HW or SW. 
> I just hope the lesson is learned.
> 
> Alex
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:55
> Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
> 
> Sorry guys, but I found this just too compelling to pass up.
> 
> Robot Cannon Kills 9, Wounds 14
> http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki.html
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis
> 
> "White people are clever, but they are not wise."
>           Ishi, the last of the Yahi nation
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour 
> <http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/> now.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Apr  4 15:24:08 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:24:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Researcher Needed
Message-ID: <20080404152617.NTVS28059.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>


I have a research opening.  If you are a researcher and have any time 
to work with me virtually this weekend for approximately 4 hours, 
please contact me at by email at natasha at natasha.cc.

Bty, for those of you on the Singularity list, this is not an April 
1st spoof :-)

Many thanks,
Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More, 
BFA, MS, MPhil
University Lecturer
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics
Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr  4 15:35:32 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:35:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.m
	axmore.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
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	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/1/2008 -0500, Max More wrote:

>Are you sure that a
>true free market in medical care wouldn't be a major improvement.
>
>Answer me with a "yes, of course, you market-lovin' bozo", and it
>might spur me to finally put together a piece (for my brand spanking
>new blog) on what steps toward such a system might be.

I'm in general agreement with this piece today in the NYT by Paul Krugman:


Elizabeth Edwards has cancer. John McCain has had 
cancer in the past. Last weekend, Mrs. Edwards 
bluntly pointed out that neither of them would be 
able to get insurance under Mr. McCain?s health care plan.

It?s about time someone said that and, more 
generally, made the case that Mr. McCain?s 
approach to health care is based on voodoo 
economics ? not the supply-side voodoo that 
claims that cutting taxes increases revenues 
(though Mr. McCain says that, too), but the 
equally foolish claim, refuted by all available 
evidence, that the magic of the marketplace can 
produce cheap health care for everyone.

As Mrs. Edwards pointed out, the McCain health 
plan would do nothing to prevent insurance 
companies from denying coverage to those, like 
her and Mr. McCain, who have pre-existing medical conditions.

The McCain campaign?s response was condescending 
and dismissive ? a statement that Mrs. Edwards 
doesn?t understand the comprehensive nature of 
the senator?s approach, which would harness ?the 
power of competition to produce greater coverage 
for Americans,? reducing costs so that even 
people with pre-existing conditions could afford care.

This is nonsense on multiple levels.

For one thing, even if you buy the premise that 
competition would reduce health care costs, the 
idea that it could cut costs enough to make 
insurance affordable for Americans with a history 
of cancer or other major diseases is sheer fantasy.

Beyond that, there?s no reason to believe in 
these alleged cost reductions. Insurance 
companies do try to hold down ?medical losses? ? 
the industry?s term for what happens when an 
insurer actually ends up having to honor its 
promises by paying a client?s medical bills. But 
they don?t do this by promoting cost-effective medical care.

Instead, they hold down costs by only covering 
healthy people, screening out those who need 
coverage the most ? which was exactly the point 
Mrs. Edwards was making. They also deny as many 
claims as possible, forcing doctors and hospitals 
to spend large sums fighting to get paid.

And the international evidence on health care 
costs is overwhelming: the United States has the 
most privatized system, with the most market 
competition ? and it also has by far the highest 
health care costs in the world.

Yet the McCain health plan ? actually a set of 
bullet points on the campaign?s Web site ? is 
entirely based on blind faith that competition 
among private insurers will solve all problems.

I?d like to single out one of these bullet points 
in particular ? the first substantive proposal 
Mr. McCain offers (the preceding entries are 
nothing but feel-good boilerplate).

As I?ve mentioned in past columns, the Veterans 
Health Administration is one of the few clear 
American success stories in the struggle to 
contain health care costs. Since it was reformed 
during the Clinton years, the V.A. has used the 
fact that it?s an integrated system ? a system 
that takes long-term responsibility for its 
clients? health ? to deliver an impressive 
combination of high-quality care and low costs. 
It has also taken the lead in the use of 
information technology, which has both saved money and reduced medical errors.

Sure enough, Mr. McCain wants to privatize and, 
in effect, dismantle the V.A. Naturally, this 
destructive agenda comes wrapped in the flag: 
?America?s veterans have fought for our freedom,? 
says the McCain Web site. ?We should give them 
freedom to choose to carry their V.A. dollars to 
a provider that gives them the timely care at 
high quality and in the best location.?

That?s a recipe for having healthy veterans drop 
out of the system, undermining its integrated 
nature and draining away resources.

Mr. McCain, then, is offering a completely 
wrongheaded approach to health care. But the way 
the campaign for the Democratic nomination has 
unfolded raises questions about how effective his 
eventual opponent will be in making that point.

Indeed, while Mrs. Edwards focused her criticism 
on Mr. McCain, she also made it clear that she 
prefers Hillary Clinton?s approach ? ?Sen. 
Clinton?s plan is a great plan? ? to Barack 
Obama?s. The Clinton plan closely resembles the 
plan for universal coverage that John Edwards 
laid out more than a year ago. By contrast, Mr. 
Obama offers a watered-down plan that falls short 
of universality, and it would have higher costs per person covered.

Worse yet, Mr. Obama attacked his Democratic 
rivals? health plans using conservative talking 
points about choice and the evil of having the 
government tell you what to do. That?s going to 
make it hard ? if he is the nominee ? to refute 
Mr. McCain when he makes similar arguments on 
behalf of such things as privatizing veterans? care.

Still, health care ought to be a major issue in 
this campaign. I wonder if we?ll have time to 
discuss it after we deal with more important 
subjects, like bowling and basketball.





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr  4 16:51:36 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:51:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>

At 10:35 AM 4/4/2008 -0500, I quoted Krugman:

>Elizabeth Edwards has cancer. John McCain has had
>cancer in the past. Last weekend, Mrs. Edwards
>bluntly pointed out that neither of them would be
>able to get insurance under Mr. McCain's health care plan.[...]
>
>As Mrs. Edwards pointed out, the McCain health
>plan would do nothing to prevent insurance
>companies from denying coverage to those, like
>her and Mr. McCain, who have pre-existing medical conditions.

Barbara Lamar points out to me that <"Insurance" is not really 
insurance if the event it's expected to protect against already has a 
probability of 1.>

True. The part of the quoted sentences to place emphasis on is 
"health care plan" or system rather than "insurance" which is a 
mechanism.  If everyone is covered from conception or birth on, 
nobody (yet) knows what maladies will arise for any individual.

Many here will assert that it is unjust to burden the healthy and 
young with costs imposed by the sick and elderly. I suppose the only 
response is that values other than justice are also embraced by most 
humans. There is also the prudential consideration that none of us 
can be certain of remaining healthy or avoiding costly injury. What's 
more, for epidemiological reasons, everyone's health is improved by 
making sure as few people as possible get and remain sick.

Does this mean those whose choices predictably *make* them sick or 
damaged get a free handout at the expense of the rest? I certainly 
resent that as well, but there might be subtle cost-benefit 
calculations that produce non-intuitive minimax solutions.

Damien Broderick




From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Fri Apr  4 18:21:01 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:21:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>


>
> I'm in general agreement with this piece today in the NYT by Paul Krugman:
>
>
> Elizabeth Edwards has cancer. John McCain has had 
> cancer in the past. Last weekend, Mrs. Edwards 
> bluntly pointed out that neither of them would be 
> able to get insurance under Mr. McCain's health care plan.
>
>   
Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is what has 
caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place. People no longer saw 
nor cared what they were being charged because someone else was paying 
the bill so the market forces controlling costs were removed. It's the 
cost of BS we all pay.

For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to the ER at 3 
am because she had a nosebleed that started at 9pm and hadn't stopped. 
We waited 3 hours, then saw a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked 
like a small tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for 
the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out of 
curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the 15 minutes and the 
"tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was another $300 worth of supplies and 
such. I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error and they 
said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical device" they put in 
her nose was "medicated". I was supposed to return in 3 days to have it 
removed which would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in 
insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the thing out myself 
with no trouble at all and the bleeding was obviously gone.

I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in 
such short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or  allowing  
practicing nurses to  do more would be in order and help to drive some 
of these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t working because 
the market is not free.
 


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From jonkc at att.net  Fri Apr  4 17:42:32 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:42:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> I don't think you understand the problem.  Neutrons plus depleted uranium
> equals weapons grade plutonium

I know.

> better than any made in the cold war.

You're right, I don't know what that means.

> Why does it [plutonium] scare you?

Besides being far more toxic than uranium a Plutonium economy world probably
require breeder reactors, and they have a much higher energy density than a
regular reactor and that means it's inherently more dangerous with less
margin of error.  A conventional reactor uses Uranium as fuel in which the
U235 has been enriched from the naturally occurring .7% concentration to
about 4%,  you need about 85% to make a bomb.

A breeder uses weapons grade plutonium as a fuel, and lots of it. Also, a
conventional reactor uses water as a coolant and to slow down the neutrons,
a breeder uses molten sodium that burns in the air and explodes in the
presents of water. After a short time in operation this hot liquid sodium
becomes intensely radioactive.  And that's not just a theoretical danger, in
1996 a leak in a sodium pump destroyed the newest and largest breeder
reactor in Japan, if it wasn't in a containment building it could have been
a human disaster. It's already an economic disaster of several hundred
million dollars.

> Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium without Pu 240 in it, the
> stuff isn't suitable for bombs.

The very first nuclear bomb at Trinity had lots of Pu 240 in it as did the
bomb that destroyed Nagasaki. When the bomb makers realized it was hard
to make pure Pu 239 it created a crisis, they discovered that because of the
pre-detonation caused by that contaminate the gun method of assembly
wouldn't work for Plutonium. But they soon found a substitute, implosion,
and that worked just fine thank you very much.

And I Don't understand what you are trying to say. First you say reactors
are dangerous because they produce Plutonium then you say they're not.

> The problem is you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.

Yes if you limit the time the U238 is in the neutron flux, but it's seldom
done because it limits yield, better to be clever in the way you assemble
the Plutonium to critical mass.

> How do you think the space elevator could be used in the place of
> microwaves?

Boy that's a tough question! I'll have to think about that.

> Making antimatter and bring it down in a bag is a *joke.*

I could be wrong but I believe I read somewhere that scientists have
discovered another way of sending energy down a wire.

> Even if it could be, an elevator has to come down close to the
> equator and > there isn't much demand for power there.

Not now but things change, it's not unreasonable to think industry might
move to where energy is cheap.

 John K Clark









From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 18:33:30 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 11:33:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804040742p78eea3c2j7ede415e93b1bb2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0804040742p78eea3c2j7ede415e93b1bb2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804041133s5e1dcf2fu9d6fbf365001b476@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 7:42 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
>  >  Why does it scare you?  Unless you take the trouble to make plutonium
>  >  without Pu 240 in it, the stuff isn't suitable for bombs.  (The 240
>  >  makes it detonate prematurely, with much less yield.)  The problem is
>  >  you can make pure Pu 239 if you set up to do so.
>
>  No. You mean 'the stuff isn't *ideal* for bombs'.

Correction accepted.

>  It still makes a pretty big nuclear explosion and terrorists aren't
>  perfectionists.

Snip

It might be noted that with the resources of a country (of sorts) the
North Koreans got one made out of spent reactor fuel to go off with an
estimated yield of 0.4 kt.  That's not much of a nuke, but I agree it
would make a hell of a mess in a city.

Keith


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 19:26:24 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:26:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
Message-ID: <2d6187670804041226o471f1dedpb1df3e54fba47992@mail.gmail.com>

I have very mixed feelings about airport behavioral screening and though it
does seem to "catch some bad fish" in a wide net, I still think it is a
severe violation of American civil liberties and should be stopped.  If the
standard airport screeners do their job properly (x-raying, bag search, body
wanding, etc.) this is not a crucial activity.  What is happening to the
United States government and the general public?  I feel like we are headed
down a slippery slope toward doing things like Communist China or Russia.
And Osama and his thugs have ultimately won if that happens.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VR7AN80&show_article=1&catnum=0


John  : (
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 20:05:51 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:05:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] One-hundred-fold improvement in exoplanet resolution
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804041305x7ba94b61h827aae94443b7923@mail.gmail.com>

How to Find Other "Earths"

A new laser technique could locate planets much like our own.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/20509/?nlid=982

"...system increases the precision of spectrographs--optics used to
analyze light from distant stars--by a hundred times, and it should
make it possible to detect Earth-like planets."

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 20:23:09 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:23:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:42 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

snip
>
>  And I Don't understand what you are trying to say. First you say reactors
>  are dangerous because they produce Plutonium then you say they're not.

*All* reactors make plutonium.  If you advocate using them for power
you are advocating making plutonium.  It's unavoidable.

snip

>  > How do you think the space elevator could be used in the place of
>  > microwaves?
>
>  Boy that's a tough question! I'll have to think about that.
>
>  > Making antimatter and bring it down in a bag is a *joke.*
>
>  I could be wrong but I believe I read somewhere that scientists have
>  discovered another way of sending energy down a wire.

Please do some calculations on this one.  Nanotube cable probably
won't be much of a conductor.  But even if it was 50 times as good as
copper please figure the current, voltage and loses involved in 22,000
miles.  Next, how you are going to keep the cables from shorting out
in the rather conductive ionosphere and how you are going to restrain
the magnetic forces pushing the cables apart?  (A giant coax might
solve some of them.)

I am certainly not welded to microwave power transmission.  If you

>  > Even if it could be, an elevator has to come down close to the
>  > equator and > there isn't much demand for power there.
>
>  Not now but things change, it's not unreasonable to think industry might
>  move to where energy is cheap.

There are in theory ways to move and even store this kind of power,
see Keith Lofstrom's work, but they involve technology that is even
bigger than power sats.

Keith


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 22:14:58 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:14:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <200804041714.59187.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 04 April 2008, Kevin Freels wrote:
> I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in
> such short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or
> ?allowing ? practicing nurses to ?do more would be in order and help
> to drive some of these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t
> working because the market is not free.

The people getting into med school are sketchy as it is:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/

Click around and start wondering about these people.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 22:18:49 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:18:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 04 April 2008, Keith Henson wrote:
> I don't even know which of the three currently proposed transport
> methods will work out. ?The space elevator has the best return on
> energy, but it takes a massive orbital cleanup project plus
> developing strong enough nanotube fibers and ways to recover from a
> cut cable. Since the output is very low cost energy that can be fed
> back into the launch mechanism, requiring a lot of launch energy only
> delays the point at which the project starts paying for itself by a
> few months.

Have you considered the solar power satellite people? They are 
suggesting power-beaming back to the surface, but this does in fact 
require quite large satellite dishes for the rectifiers.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr  4 23:00:14 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:00:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] solar power satellites
In-Reply-To: <200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<200804032151.13886.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0804040720i22fe7794xfce1e76cfcb81dff@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404175848.024800f0@satx.rr.com>

At 05:18 PM 4/4/2008 -0500, Bryan wrote:

>Have you considered the solar power satellite people? They are
>suggesting power-beaming back to the surface, but this does in fact
>require quite large satellite dishes for the rectifiers.

Um, what do you suppose Keith has been *talking* about for the last 
few days? (And, of course, decades?)

Damien Broderick 



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr  4 23:24:25 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:24:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804041226o471f1dedpb1df3e54fba47992@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804042352.m34NqPqO003214@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
	Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 12:26 PM
	To: ExI chat list
	Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
	
	
	>...I have very mixed feelings about airport behavioral screening
and though it does seem to "catch some bad fish" in a wide net, I still
think it is a severe violation of American civil liberties and should be
stopped...we are headed down a slippery slope toward doing things like
Communist China or Russia.  And Osama and his thugs have ultimately won if
that happens.   
	 
	 
	
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VR7AN80&show_article=1&catnum=0
	 
	 
	John  : (



Johnny, your comment would have been more convincing had it not been posted
the same day as this:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1158565

When this sort of thing comes out, there are always those who point out
there are scary christians as well.  With the recent revelation of Rev.
Jeremiah Wright pumping his congregation with toxic racist hatred, I would
now be forced to cede their point.

spike





From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Apr  5 00:54:20 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 19:54:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] solar power satellites
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404175848.024800f0@satx.rr.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<200804041718.49298.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404175848.024800f0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804041954.20955.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 04 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Um, what do you suppose Keith has been *talking* about for the last
> few days? (And, of course, decades?)

He was mentioning transport costs, I assumed the cost of transporting 
the energy. Wrong-- oops.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr  5 01:26:19 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:26:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804040750h3e58eecenc4616c15cd78486a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6a17bd40804021155y6e200772w9296c173ebd3fcd0@mail.gmail.com>	<8CA640A793BA4BE-EB0-323F@webmail-mf04.sysops.aol.com>	<f21c22e30804032238o102185e8nb191296f96e1a01f@mail.gmail.com>	<2d6187670804040735x4a17eeafg8419ccedbf6af355@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0804040750h3e58eecenc4616c15cd78486a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA64D32F65F05E-11B0-1D13@WEBMAIL-DC17.sysops.aol.com>

I formally renounce my initial condemnation of such machines,........where can I get one? ;o)


-----Original Message-----
From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:50
Subject: Re: [ExI] friendly fire, unfriendly AI



On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:35 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> I believe the time will come (within several decades or less) when we will
> see fully autonomous and very lethal weapons systems (especially flying
> attack drones, undersea attack drones, ground robots, etc.) being a fairly
> common sight on the battlefield.



Hey, a few of these could solve Alex's problem of defending his
property against feral youth!   ;)


BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From amara at amara.com  Sat Apr  5 03:50:05 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 21:50:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  Behavioral Screeners
Message-ID: <p06230900c41ca6382ebd@[192.168.0.66]>

Spike:
>Johnny, your comment would have been more convincing had it not been posted
>the same day as this:
>http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1158565

I think my post from last month is still relevant:

Feel safer now?
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-March/041800.html

 From Boing Boing:
Debating the feasibility of an in-flight liquid bomb
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/04/debating-the-feasibi.html

"A UK court finally heard evidence about the bizarre liquid-explosive
plot hatched in 2006 by some fairly unrealistic suicide bombers, the
origin of the global ban on taking liquids through aviation security
checkpoints. The plan? To mix Tang and peroxide in Lucozade bottles and
make airplanes go boom. Ever since the plot first came to light,
chemists and explosives experts have been highly skeptical of it
working, and the TSA and UK authorities have blithely insisted that they
believe it could come true.

Now, readers of Bruce Schneier's security blog are invited to weigh in
on the feasibility of such a scheme, given the information that just
emerged in court:"

Schneier and his readers:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/the_liquid_bomb.html

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From amara at amara.com  Sat Apr  5 03:56:12 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 21:56:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  solar power satellites
Message-ID: <p06230901c41ca8159e98@[192.168.0.66]>


My long comment here
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/wiredscience/blogs/2007/10/deep-impact-sputnik.html#comment-373

could provide some useful background information to the solar power satellite
idea as well.

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr  5 04:15:47 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 21:15:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <p06230900c41ca6382ebd@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <200804050444.m354hseV023202@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

>...On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
> 
> Spike:
> >Johnny, your comment would have been more convincing had it not been 
> >posted the same day as this:
> >http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1158565
> 
> ...chemists and explosives experts have been highly skeptical of 
> it working, and the TSA and UK authorities have blithely 
> insisted that they believe it could come true.
> 
> Now, readers of Bruce Schneier's security blog are invited to 
> weigh in on the feasibility of such a scheme, given the 
> information that just emerged in court:"
> 
> Schneier and his readers:
> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/the_liquid_bomb.html
> 
> Amara

Amara, it sounds like they didn't really have the means to blow up these
planes with the technology they were using.  This is reassuring to some
extent, so yes in that sense I do feel safer now.  They only *wanted* to
blow up planes, but couldn't because the screening system disallows
sufficient quantities of liquids.  Were this not the case, their job would
be easy: they could carry a number of bottles of pure alcohol, nothing more
sophisticated required: a few liters poured on the floor, ignited with an
improvised computer-battery powered nichrome loop for instance.  Good chance
that would cause a crash, for the in-flight inferno would be very difficult
to extinguish.

spike





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr  5 05:01:31 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:01:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804050444.m354hseV023202@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <p06230900c41ca6382ebd@[192.168.0.66]>
	<200804050444.m354hseV023202@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>

At 09:15 PM 4/4/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

>They only *wanted* to
>blow up planes, but couldn't because the screening system disallows
>sufficient quantities of liquids.  Were this not the case, their job would
>be easy: they could carry a number of bottles of pure alcohol, nothing more
>sophisticated required: a few liters poured on the floor, ignited with an
>improvised computer-battery powered nichrome loop for instance.  Good chance
>that would cause a crash, for the in-flight inferno would be very difficult
>to extinguish.

I know zero about aircraft design, but this suddenly frightens the 
heck out of me--once you're dealing with a potentially indefinite 
number of religiously inspired would-be martyrs, there must be a vast 
number of ways to crash a plane. I wonder if it might be necessary to 
strip search *everyone* boarding, and not allow *anything* to be 
carried on board by passengers, maybe not even their own clothing. 
Copious entertainment can be provided now to each seat, even 
(amazing!) *text* on screen from something like the google scan of 
the world's libraries, and new magazines, blogs, etc. I wonder if 
luggage might be sent in separate planes, perhaps robot-controlled?

Damien Broderick




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr  5 17:44:12 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 10:44:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
> 
> At 09:15 PM 4/4/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:
> 
> >They only *wanted* to blow up planes...  Good chance that would cause a
crash, for the in-flight 
> >inferno would be very difficult to extinguish.
> 

Damien modestly opined:

> I know zero about aircraft design, but this suddenly 
> frightens the heck out of me--once you're dealing with a 
> potentially indefinite number of religiously inspired 
> would-be martyrs, there must be a vast number of ways to 
> crash a plane...

Well not really.  Surely bare-handed aspiring martyrs would find it
difficult indeed, assuming they cannot penetrate the easily-reinforced
bulkhead to the cockpit, first with sturdy structure, second with Mister
Magnum, FortyFour Magnum.

> I wonder if it might be necessary to strip 
> search *everyone* boarding, and not allow *anything* to be 
> carried on board by passengers...

Actually I think that is coming, but not to the US first.  I could see it
starting in England and open-minded Holland, then becoming eventually
standard practice everywhere radical Presbyterians don't like.

> ...maybe not even their own clothing...

With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
friendly skies.

> Copious entertainment can be provided now to each seat...

Understatement.  Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "copious
entertainment provided to each seat."

> ...even (amazing!) *text* on screen from something like the google 
> scan of the world's libraries, ...

Would *anyone* still able to concentrate on the world's libraries?  I have
*never* seen anything in a library that could compete.  

> and new magazines, blogs, etc...  

There has never been the magazine or blog interesting enough to get a
minute's attention from me under those circumstances, pal.
 
> I wonder if luggage might be sent in separate planes, perhaps 
> robot-controlled? Damien Broderick

That is a helllllll of an idea man!  A remote controlled or autonomous
dinghy plane that follows the passenger plane, the luggage (and clothing)
plane gets diverted, think of the fun we could have with that.  Of course
the lines to the restrooms would stretch the length of the cabin.  But I
digress.

Back to the original point, the scenario that I imagined was the one of a
prole starting a fire with some kind of accelerant.  Plain old ethanol might
be the liquid of choice, for a radical Presbyterian or a member of the
Wright-guard might be able to create a plastic form-fitting bladder of some
sort that looks like an ordinary beer-belly, thereby get several liters of
the stuff aboard, for the metal detector wouldn't complain, nor would that
wand they use to get all proctological on randomly selected passengers.  The
back of the envelope calcs would look like this.  

Let me temporarily jump into English units because a mole is close enough to
a cubic foot for single digit BOTECs.  A typical passenger B737 main cabin
is about 100 feet long and perhaps 13 feet in diameter, so close enough to
10000 cubic feet of proles, so that's a couple thousand moles of oxygen.
Now, just to see if I still remember how to do this:

C2H5OH is ethanol, right?  C2H5OH + 3O2 -> 2CO2 + 3 H20  Does that balance?
Ja, OK.

So about 2000 moles of oxygen would require 2000/3, about 700 moles of
ethanol, and a mole of ethanol is 2*12+16+6*1=46 grams, so about 30000 grams
or about 40 liters of ethanol (about ten gallons for the anglophiles among
us) would burn up the oxygen in a jet passenger cabin and never mind any
explosion or the subsequent conflagration started with other flammables on
the plane itself, and this all without even breaking out a pencil or looking
up anything on the web, the raw material readily available at your better
liquor stores for a hundred dollars.

I looked up and found that the B737 is about 3500 cubic feet for passenger
and freight combined, so now we are at 3 gallons, but it is likely waaay
overkill to assume a prole would need to stoichiometrically consume all the
oxygen in an aircraft to cause it's midflight demise.  I can imagine a third
of that, plus the subsequent heat would be murderously sufficient, so now a
single gallon of ethanol smuggled past the vilified overworked and underpaid
rent-a-cops could slay a hundred or more infidels. 

>From that perspective, I am pleasantly amazed no one ever tried to take down
a plane this way back in the bad days when they let proles carry flammable
liquids on board.  I will not complain a bit about not being allowed to
carry that stuff now.  Soon we may be invited to fly the naked skies of
United.  {8^D

Point: if it is this easy for us to think of these notions, the bad guys are
thinking too.  {8-| 

We need to think ahead of them. 

spike  






 



From jonkc at att.net  Sat Apr  5 17:34:01 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:34:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> *All* reactors make plutonium.

Yes as I've said many many times.

> If you advocate using them for power
> you are advocating making plutonium.
> It's unavoidable.

It's too late to worry about that, the world is already awash in plutonium,
as well as completed ready to go H bombs. I suspect that in Russia gold is
guarded more securely than H bombs.

> Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.

At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity than
silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even some
indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic conductors, that
means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their length; at least 
that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how one 22000 miles
long would behave except to say it would be better than any metal. 
Maybe much much better.

> how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables
> apart?

Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry
a lot of current.

  John K Clark






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr  5 18:21:12 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:21:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>

At 10:44 AM 4/5/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

> > ...maybe not even their own clothing...
>
>With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
>They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
>make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
>boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
>radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
>friendly skies.

Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something 
like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes 
available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long 
johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly 
flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate 
clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight 
garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these 
underpaid positions).

Damien Broderick 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  5 18:38:31 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 11:38:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804051138v1b07e099u3a9ea468ffee66a9@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote:
Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something
like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes
available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long
johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly
flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate
clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight
garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these
underpaid positions).

>>>

I can only imagine what will happen when Damien Broderick is made the Aussie
Homeland Security Czar...

John  ;  )
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Apr  5 20:01:52 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:01:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>

John K Clark wrote:
> "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
>   
>> I don't think you understand the problem.  Neutrons plus depleted uranium
>> equals weapons grade plutonium
>>     
>
> I know.
>
>   
>> better than any made in the cold war.
>>     
>
> You're right, I don't know what that means.
>
>   
>> Why does it [plutonium] scare you?
>>     
>
> Besides being far more toxic than uranium a Plutonium economy world probably
> require breeder reactors, and they have a much higher energy density than a
> regular reactor and that means it's inherently more dangerous with less
> margin of error.  A conventional reactor uses Uranium as fuel in which the
> U235 has been enriched from the naturally occurring .7% concentration to
> about 4%,  you need about 85% to make a bomb.
>   

On the other hand breeder reactors use fuel much more efficiently 
producing less waste.  They can also use some current types of "nuclear 
waste" in their fuel cycle.  If we are going to nuclear power there is 
no question that breeders are desirable.  

There are many kinds of reactors only some of which are initially fueled 
with plutonium.    What is "conventional" seems to have been as much due 
to the old anti-nuclear power hysteria than sound technical limitations.   

> A breeder uses weapons grade plutonium as a fuel, and lots of it.
That is not entirely accurate.  See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
Many types of breeders can be built. 

>  Also, a
> conventional reactor uses water as a coolant and to slow down the neutrons,
> a breeder uses molten sodium that burns in the air and explodes in the
> presents of water.
There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms 
including using water.

- samantha


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr  5 20:32:54 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:32:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405153130.0254e2a8@satx.rr.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/5/2008 -0700, samantha wrote:

>There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms
>including using water.

I believe that's the method Spike uses, but there are also some good 
lotions on the market.




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr  5 22:04:05 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 15:04:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
Message-ID: <200804052231.m35MUoMv008700@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I honestly don't get it.  Disgraced former governor Spitzer pays thousands
for what appears (to me) to be a pretty ordinary hooker:
 
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stkristen-pg,0,1566228.photogalle
ry
 
Yet this brilliant Oxford scholar, jaw dropper, stunning babe as well as
monster brain, only gets hundreds?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=5573
70
<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=557
370&in_page_id=1879> &in_page_id=1879
 
I just don't get it.  A harlot with whom one could actually carry on
meaningful conversation (possibly even about mathematics!) and yet no
premium pricetag?  Someone do explain.
 
spike
 
 
 
 
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From jnh at vt11.net  Sun Apr  6 02:10:03 2008
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 22:10:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
References: <021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20080406021003.GL1016@vt11.net>

On Sat, Apr 05, 2008 at 01:01:52PM -0700, samantha wrote:
> On the other hand breeder reactors use fuel much more efficiently 
> producing less waste.  They can also use some current types of "nuclear 
> waste" in their fuel cycle.  If we are going to nuclear power there is 
> no question that breeders are desirable.  
> 
> There are many kinds of reactors only some of which are initially fueled 
> with plutonium.    What is "conventional" seems to have been as much due 
> to the old anti-nuclear power hysteria than sound technical limitations.   
> 
> > A breeder uses weapons grade plutonium as a fuel, and lots of it.
> That is not entirely accurate.  See 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
> Many types of breeders can be built. 

I've always thought the molten-salt designs were particularly elegant.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor

They can be configured as breeders, with the ability to burn Thorium
(Th-U233 cycle) as well as U / Pu, and even heavier actinides from LWR
waste.  The coolant loop is low-pressure and chemically inert, hence
safer than water on both counts.

I could be a tad biased from having read Weinberg's book, though.


> >  Also, a
> > conventional reactor uses water as a coolant and to slow down the neutrons,
> > a breeder uses molten sodium that burns in the air and explodes in the
> > presents of water.
> There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms 
> including using water.
> 
> - samantha

-- 
Jordan.


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Apr  6 06:06:20 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 23:06:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
Message-ID: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>

So dear friends you have been used to me posting updates about my husband James B. Lewis PhD who has bit of historical presence in our community with his "rational gamble" paper written in the Dora Kent case in regards to cryonics as well forming Nanocon early on and his work with the Foresight Institute and nano book editing. As you know in 04 he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, and he had two stem cell transplants, he is doing great! Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
we may both be using this blog now to keep you informed of both of our health. By the way in case you don't know, I made the Dermal display animation and have been gunning for nanotech for oh I guess a decade now through my Nanogirl News list, Nanotechnology industries portal and my animation work (which I am very much focusing on right now). Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

Your friend, 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Health blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 06:35:36 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:35:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>

At 10:34 AM 4/5/2008, John K Clark wrote:
(keith)

> > Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.
>
>At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity than
>silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even some
>indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic conductors, that
>means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their length; at least
>that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how one 22000 miles
>long would behave except to say it would be better than any metal.
>Maybe much much better.
>
> > how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables
> > apart?
>
>Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry
>a lot of current.

Please put numbers on this statement.  I think you will be astounded.

Keith 



From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 08:29:48 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 04:29:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>

Even with naked passengers, no luggage and behavioural screening, It's still just a matter of time before wannabe martyrs start swallowing condoms full of C4.
As with all terrorist threats, the only solution is to remove the intent. That is the hard part and any thing else is just a short term stop gap solution waiting to be circumvented.
Still, naked flights get my approval !

Alex 

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:21
Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners



At 10:44 AM 4/5/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:

> > ...maybe not even their own clothing...
>
>With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
>They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
>make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
>boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
>radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
>friendly skies.

Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something 
like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes 
available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long 
johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly 
flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate 
clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight 
garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these 
underpaid positions).

Damien Broderick 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 09:07:22 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 05:07:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <8CA65DCC17359C0-E2C-42DB@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>

Anywhere that there is an interface between two organisations which charge each other for a service or product, there is wastage. This is true of any commercial bodies such as in a private health system and Even in fully publicly funded systems such as a national health service. In the case of national services, this is usually done to bolster inadequate budgets, but also because many people in the system get bonuses of some kind which they try to maximise.
There is always someone skimming off the cream at these interfaces and it is fully accepted.
For some reason we don't like the idea of paying for someone else's health cover, Smokers being a prime example. But we have no problem paying for the CEO's new yauht and a box full of Cuban cigars.
Cost cutting exercises, streamlining and?scrutiny of the system?generally forces these costs down through the chain to the first interfaces, so a tampon cost's $1200
Its a shame that such an expensive tampon can't be used to stop the heamorage of money!

Alex




ginal Message-----
From: Kevin Freels kevinfreels at insightbb.com



 

Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is what has caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place. People no longer saw nor cared what they were being charged because someone else was paying the bill so the market forces controlling costs were removed. It's the cost of BS we all pay. 

For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to the ER at 3 am because she had a nosebleed that started at 9pm and hadn't stopped. We waited 3 hours, then saw a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a small tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out of curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was another $300 worth of supplies and such. I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error and they said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding was obviously gone.

I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or? allowing? practicing nurses to? do more would be in order and help to drive some of these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t working because the market is not free.
?





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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  6 09:34:44 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 02:34:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <47F89934.4020109@mac.com>

ablainey at aol.com wrote:
> Even with naked passengers, no luggage and behavioural screening, It's 
> still just a matter of time before wannabe martyrs start swallowing 
> condoms full of C4.
> As with all terrorist threats, the only solution is to remove the 
> intent. That is the hard part and any thing else is just a short term 
> stop gap solution waiting to be circumvented.
> Still, naked flights get my approval !

The best solution is to stop being so gullible to the message of the 
terror mongers.  The US administration would have us believe that we are 
facing a very higly organized international terror cabal that would put 
the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame.  We have been 
led to believe there are terrorist cells replete with sleepers 
everywhere.  We spent a LOT looking all over the Afghanistan mountains 
for the purported highly sophisticated underground command and control 
bunkers to coordinate it all.  The result?  We found squat.  Pretty much 
all the supposed terrorist cells uncovered in the US have turned out to 
be nothing or very very little.   Yet what has been accomplished?  
Besides the biggest bureaucratic boondoggle and super pork barrel in US 
history, the DHS being created and a trillion or two poured out in Iraq 
and Aghanistan to basically pound sand and in the case of Iraq make the 
country and its people a lot worse off than they were, what else has 
been accomplished?   The what else is that everyone is up in arms and 
thinking in terms of terrorist behind every bush to this very day.   
Perfectly rational wonderful people have had their thinking and 
priorities all screwed up for years.   The administration has got away 
with bold power grabs, out and out illegal activity and pretty much 
wiping its collective ass with the Constitution.  We the people have 
pretty much just gone along as we bleat "whatever it takes to keep us 
s-a-a-f-e".   What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing 
travesty!   

Please wake up.  It is no Muslims, or Al Qaeda (pitiful little group of 
fanatics it really is) that you need to worry about.   It is the end of 
all freedom as you know or have known it.  It is living and being pushed 
about constantly by fear.  It is sinking into a deep dark place where we 
forget about a bright future along with our freedom and turn our not 
inconsiderable intellects to every possible threat and search for, 
Einstein help us, some "final solution".  

Pull up!  We are auguring in! 

- samantha

>
> Alex
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:21
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
>
> At 10:44 AM 4/5/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:
>
> > > ...maybe not even their own clothing...
> >
> >With that notion you may have hit upon the way to save the airline industry.
> >They would sell skerjillllions of tickets with that alone.  People would
> >make round trips for no reason.  Hell, even *I* would enjoy my otherwise
> >boring business trips.  Furthermore, that could keep the really hard core
> >radical Presbyterians off the plane, they being far too proper for such
> >friendly skies.
>
> Radical Presbies should be happy to fly, because I envisage something 
> like a neck to foot opaque white nightie in 10 or more sizes 
> available to boarding passengers, plus hospital booties and long 
> johns. They'll look like probationary angels boarding their heavenly 
> flights. No naughty views available (except to the militant celibate 
> clergy hired to keep a close eye on those changing into their flight 
> garments--and no, Spike, you would not be eligible for one of these 
> underpaid positions).
>
> Damien Broderick 
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour 
> <http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/> now.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   



From benboc at lineone.net  Sun Apr  6 11:02:08 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:02:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <47F8ADB0.9060209@lineone.net>

Damn, Gina, so sorry to hear this.

Best wishes, and I hope you are in that 20% group.

ben zaiboc


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 14:38:56 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 09:38:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Hplusroadmap] Fwd: [Synthetic Biology] Do it yourself
	biotech group in Boston
Message-ID: <200804060938.57439.kanzure@gmail.com>


----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: [Synthetic Biology] DIY Biotech in Boston
Date: Friday 04 April 2008
From: "Mackenzie Cowell" <macowell at gmail.com>
To: "Jason Morrison" <jason.p.morrison at gmail.com>, "Jason Kelly" 
<jasonk at mit.edu>, "Jason Jakob Lohmueller" 
<JLohmuel at fas.harvard.edu>, "Reshma Shetty" <rshetty at mit.edu>, "Austin 
Che" <austin at csail.mit.edu>, "Barry Canton" <bcanton at mit.edu>, "Meagan 
Lizarazo" <meaganl at mit.edu>, "John Cumbers" <johncumbers at gmail.com>, 
syntheticbiologyspace at googlegroups.com, "Drew Endy" 
<endy at mit.edu>, "Tom Knight" <tk at csail.mit.edu>, "Kim de Mora" 
<Kim.deMora at gmail.com>, discuss at syntheticbiology.org, "Jason Bobe" 
<jasonbobe at gmail.com>

Good afternoon friends,
Help kickstart a DIY Biotech interest group here in Boston!  Interested
garagistas, academics, entrepreneurs, and other Synthetic Biology
enthusiasts should join the mailing list (hosted by google groups) by
visiting http://www.diybio.org/.  The first meeting is slated for May 
1st.
 Hope you can make it!

Mac

p.s. feel free to forward this message to any interested parties

-- 
Mac Cowell
iGEM Coordinator
igem.org
231.313.9062

-------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 14:41:06 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 07:41:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <200804052231.m35MUoMv008700@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804052231.m35MUoMv008700@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804060741t3d439f12kf8d6a92d9b66689d@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
I honestly don't get it.  Disgraced former governor Spitzer pays thousands
for what appears (to me) to be a pretty ordinary hooker:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stkristen-pg,0,1566228.photogallery

Yet this brilliant Oxford scholar, jaw dropper, stunning babe as well as
monster brain, only gets hundreds?

I just don't get it.  A harlot with whom one could actually carry on
meaningful conversation (possibly even about mathematics!) and yet no
premium pricetag?  Someone do explain.
>>>

A big part of the discrepancy here is that this former Oxford scholar has
evidently horrific emotional/self-esteem problems that emerged in a way that
pushed her toward self-degradation and self-destruction.  She was not a
fairly "normal" attractive young woman trying to pay for college by
discreetly engaging in high-end prostitution "on the side."  This was an
extremely psychologically messed up girl who was driven to degrade herself.
Sadly, she is hardly alone in doing these sort of things (and though I don't
know the full details) and I tend to feel really sorry for her
former husband.  I bet she put him through hell.


John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 14:45:21 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 07:45:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080405153130.0254e2a8@satx.rr.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer> <47F7DAB0.7070005@mac.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405153130.0254e2a8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804060745n2d39c4f5sc61b22e9092f90b4@mail.gmail.com>

Spike stated:
>There are different existing breeders with different cooling mechanisms
>including using water.

Damien replied:
I believe that's the method Spike uses, but there are also some good
lotions on the market.
>>>

There are just too many possibilities here for a response....

John  ; )
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 15:20:09 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:20:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:
The best solution is to stop being so gullible to the message of the
terror mongers.  The US administration would have us believe that we are
facing a very highly organized international terror cabal that would put
the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame.  We have been
led to believe there are terrorist cells replete with sleepers
everywhere.  We spent a LOT looking all over the Afghanistan mountains
for the purported highly sophisticated underground command and control
bunkers to coordinate it all.  The result?  We found squat.  Pretty much
all the supposed terrorist cells uncovered in the US have turned out to
be nothing or very very little.   *Yet what has been accomplished?
Besides the biggest bureaucratic boondoggle and super pork barrel in US
history, the DHS being created and a trillion or two poured out in Iraq
and Afghanistan to basically pound sand and in the case of Iraq make the
country and its people a lot worse off than they were, what else has
been accomplished?   The what else is that everyone is up in arms and
thinking in terms of terrorist behind every bush to this very day.
Perfectly rational wonderful people have had their thinking and
priorities all screwed up for years.   The administration has got away
with bold power grabs, out and out illegal activity and pretty much
wiping its collective ass with the Constitution.  We the people have
pretty much just gone along as we bleat "whatever it takes to keep us
s-a-a-f-e".   What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
travesty!
>>>*
**
Amen to that!  It really bothers me that conversations about this subject on
the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on planes.
Is losing much of our civil liberties as the Western world turns into a
massive high-tech police state amusing to Extro list members??  Or are the
people here hiding behind humor because they are afraid of big brother
monitoring them, should the conversation turn serious and insightful?

Samantha continues:
Please wake up.  It is no Muslims, or Al Qaeda (pitiful little group of
fanatics it really is) that you need to worry about.   *It is the end of
all freedom as you know or have known it.  It is living and being pushed
about constantly by fear.  It is sinking into a deep dark place where we
forget about a bright future along with our freedom and turn our not
inconsiderable intellects to every possible threat and search for,
Einstein help us, some "final solution".
*>>>

I think *up to a point* Al Qaeda (and their allies) is going to be a chronic
problem (but not a terminal disease, mind you) and the big question is
whether the United States and other nations can do the required balancing
act to effectively deal with them and yet not irreparably violate our
own Western values and the concepts/laws regarding civil liberties and the
rights of individual citizens.

I definitely believe a "bogeyman is going to get you/ let me protect you
(but never seriously question/defy me...) mentality" is being used by many
in power to slyly manipulate the general public and violate our own
principles and laws and get away with it.  We as citizens of our respective
nations must stand up for the bright future we aspire to, or else it may be
stolen from us (for our own good of course...).


John Grigg
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr  6 15:38:52 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:38:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060745n2d39c4f5sc61b22e9092f90b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
	Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:45 AM
	To: ExI chat list
	Subject: Re: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
	
	
	Spike stated:
	>There are different existing breeders with different cooling
mechanisms
	>including using water.
	 
	Damien replied:
	I believe that's the method Spike uses, but there are also some good
	lotions on the market.
	>>>
	 
	There are just too many possibilities here for a response....
	 
	John  ; )  


Thanks John, but I didn't write that about breeders.  I have intentionally
avoided posting anything about the topic ever since doing some calcs on
Keith's notion of using fairly common neutron sources to separate plutonium.
That was a shock to my system, because I still haven't figured out why that
wouldn't work.  Unless I was sleeping in one of my physics lectures, that
would work.  I never slept in those physics lectures, I loved those things.

That being said, I am now calculating the impact of bad guys with plutonium.
I am still convinced that detonating a nuke is technically difficult, but a
dirty bomb is simple.  So how much plutonium would it take to mess up a city
indefinitely?  The answers I keep getting are that the bad guys could
increase the background radiation sufficiently such that some people would
still choose to live there, and still be OK, many could live to old age
there.  But more health minded people would get scarce, which would include
pretty much anyone with money and actual ability.  What would that city look
like then?  If that happened to one city, would people stay around in the
others?  Where would they go?  Would we spread ourselves more evenly over
the land?

Such a dreary response to a good gag, ja.

spike


 




From aiguy at comcast.net  Sun Apr  6 15:36:23 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:36:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><021701c8936f$1a6838f0$2dee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804020843p7efa57f4wb5b87cf62e715f32@mail.gmail.com><006e01c894e3$16538b00$79ef4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804021100o1027a38fga511d25f55c9c49@mail.gmail.com><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>

Keith and John were discussing:
At 10:34 AM 4/5/2008, John K Clark wrote:
(keith)

> > Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.
>
>At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity 
>than silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even 
>some indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic 
>conductors, that means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their 
>length; at least that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how 
>one 22000 miles long would behave except to say it would be better than any
metal.
>Maybe much much better.
>
> > how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables 
> > apart?
>
>Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry 
>a lot of current.
>
>Please put numbers on this statement.  I think you will be astounded.

My Response:

What about superconducting cables for the current?

We can't expect the same material to be strong enough for the main weight
bearing cable, but...

This would seem to solve the problem of current leakage.

This company Ultraconductors thinks they have the patented answer.

http://www.ultraconductors.com/patent_1.html

They claim to have the first ambient temperature superconductors based on
polymer materials.

http://www.ultraconductors.com/products.html

Lest anyone think this is crackpot technology and too good to be true "the
research was funded in part by the Department of Defense, which invested
$600,000 in the project. The technology also has been replicated elsewhere.
Matt Aldissi, who runs a Florida research firm called Fractal Systems,
reproduced Goldes' UltraConductor as part of work on conductivity he was
performing for the U.S. Air Force."

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=comments&op=showreply&tid
=7661&sid=2560&pid=7658&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

The question is how much current could a large diameter cable of this
material carry without losing it's super conductive properties.  If we
divided our total energy needs by the maximum capacity of a superconducting
cable would the magnetic fields of these cables destroy each other if they
were bundled side by side.

My biggest fear of such a technology is that it would be to easy to knock
totally out of operation in war time.  And would be devastating to any
economy depending on that energy source. Maybe by making such a system the
property of the world or a large group of developed nations it would prevent
any nation at war with one of the countries depending on that energy source
from making it a target and risking the wrath of the other nations.






From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Apr  6 15:38:58 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:38:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <20080406154107.SKKW10963.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 01:06 AM 4/6/2008, Gina wrote:

>A direct link to my post is here: 
><http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html>http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

Gina, I am concerned about your health and thank you for keeping us 
all informed.  You did the right thing.

My thoughts are with you and please know that I am always here for you,

Natasha
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr  6 16:05:00 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:05:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>
	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
	<2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406104840.023c7500@satx.rr.com>

At 08:20 AM 4/6/2008 -0700, John G. wrote:

>It really bothers me that conversations about this subject on the 
>Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on planes.

Just for the record, since I unintentionally introduced this turn of 
the discussion: I didn't suggest, or mean, that passengers would fly 
naked. What I wrote was:

"I wonder if it might be necessary to
strip search *everyone* boarding, and not allow *anything* to be
carried on board by passengers, maybe not even their own clothing."

I meant that literally, but assumed that some sort of robe would be 
provided for the sake of modesty. If extreme measures are required, 
this one seems vastly more sensible to me than the usual extrope 
recommendation that everyone on board pack a small cannon.

A. Blainey says: "It's still just a matter of time before wannabe 
martyrs start swallowing condoms full of C4." Presumably that kind of 
threat can be prevented by scanners.

I agree with Samantha that the whole Muslim-terrorist-under-the-bed 
panic is absurdly overstated and has been used for dubious purposes. 
Still, we do seem to be getting to the point where disgruntled kids 
or psychotics might find ways to do terrible and lethal damage to 
large systems we depend on. As I recall, John Brunner's grim novel 
THE SHEEP LOOK UP showed a world in which monkeywrenching of a pretty 
doable kind wrought havoc in large cities... and that was 1972, 
before everything was as interconnected and deteriorated as it is now.

Damien Broderick






From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 16:13:44 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 17:13:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Gary Miller wrote:
<snip>
>  My biggest fear of such a technology is that it would be to easy to knock
>  totally out of operation in war time.  And would be devastating to any
>  economy depending on that energy source. Maybe by making such a system the
>  property of the world or a large group of developed nations it would prevent
>  any nation at war with one of the countries depending on that energy source
>  from making it a target and risking the wrath of the other nations.
>


That is not the only danger. It becomes a single point of failure for
our civilization.
That is too big a risk.

It would be like building one huge nuclear power station for the whole
of the US. Too much centralisation is 'a bad thing'.  You would have
to shut the country down for weeks to repair a major fault.

Distributed energy sources is the failsafe way to go. Future buildings
covered with solar cells, etc. become self-sufficient, with power
stations used to supply factories and big energy consumers.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr  6 15:51:41 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:51:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
	Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
	
	
	Samantha Atkins wrote:
	>>...What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
	travesty!
	>>>
	 
	>Amen to that!  It really bothers me that conversations about this
subject on the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on
planes.  Is losing much of our civil liberties as the Western world turns
into a massive high-tech police state amusing to Extro list members??
...John Grigg


Sure but keep in mind, it isn't bad old governments that are taking our
civil liberties.  Consider dutch film maker Geert Wilders, maker of Fitna.  

Some Europeans are seriously suggesting that he face criminal charges for
*blasphemy*.  Of course they may have other names for it, inciting hatred,
racist something or other, but cut thru that.  There is not one comment in
his film that has anything to do with race.  It is blasphemy for which his
life and liberty are being threatened.  Who woulda seen that coming?  It
isn't governments doing this, it is religion, that is threatening loss of
civil liberties in Europe.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jUuzdfqfc

Wilders is being guarded 24/7 to prevent the fate of Van Gogh:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_11_15_04td.html

Europeans among us are invited to comment.

spike



	 
	    




From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 16:33:30 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 17:33:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 4:51 PM, spike wrote:
>  Sure but keep in mind, it isn't bad old governments that are taking our
>  civil liberties.  Consider dutch film maker Geert Wilders, maker of Fitna.
>
>  Some Europeans are seriously suggesting that he face criminal charges for
>  *blasphemy*.  Of course they may have other names for it, inciting hatred,
>  racist something or other, but cut thru that.  There is not one comment in
>  his film that has anything to do with race.  It is blasphemy for which his
>  life and liberty are being threatened.  Who woulda seen that coming?  It
>  isn't governments doing this, it is religion, that is threatening loss of
>  civil liberties in Europe.
>


Yea, it was on a BBC TV discussion program this morning.

His film accuses the Koran of inciting violence.
In response there are violent protests around the Muslim world, and
death threats to him.

Duh!!!

No signs of tolerance there.  It is all "Kill the infidels!".

BillK


From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 16:51:33 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:51:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <8CA661D9A8E8D6E-C68-6BA@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>

Gina, sorry to hear the bad news. Keep your chin up (unless that that makes you dizzy! LOL, got to keep your humour!) stay positive and thanks for sharing.
I imagine this will make you redouble your efforts.

take care of yourself
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 7:06
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl



So dear friends you have been used to me posting updates about my husband James B. Lewis PhD who has bit of historical presence in our community?with his "rational gamble" paper written in the Dora Kent case in regards to cryonics as well forming Nanocon early on and?his work with the Foresight Institute and nano book editing. As you know in 04 he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, and he had two stem cell transplants, he is doing great! Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com

we may both be using this blog now to keep you informed of both of our health. By the way in case you don't know, I made the Dermal display animation and have been gunning for nanotech for oh I guess a decade now through my Nanogirl News list, Nanotechnology industries portal and my animation work (which I am very much focusing on right now). Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters?and cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 

A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

?

Your friend, 

?

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/

Health blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute? http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."



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From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 16:57:17 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:57:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>
	<2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA661E67714C0E-C68-6E7@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>

Nail on head. :o)
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:20
Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners



Samantha Atkins wrote:

The best solution is to stop being so gullible to the message of the
terror mongers. ?The US administration would have us believe that we are
facing a very highly organized international terror cabal that would put
the old Cold War spy and intelligence networks to shame. ?We have been
led to believe there are terrorist cells replete with sleepers
everywhere. ?We spent a LOT looking all over the Afghanistan mountains
for the purported highly sophisticated underground command and control
bunkers to coordinate it all. ?The result? ?We found squat. ?Pretty much
all the supposed terrorist cells uncovered in the US have turned out to
be nothing or very very little. ? Yet what has been accomplished?
Besides the biggest bureaucratic boondoggle and super pork barrel in US
history, the DHS being created and a trillion or two poured out in Iraq
and Afghanistan to basically pound sand and in the case of Iraq make the
country and its people a lot worse off than they were, what else has
been accomplished? ? The what else is that everyone is up in arms and
thinking in terms of terrorist behind every bush to this very day.
Perfectly rational wonderful people have had their thinking and
priorities all screwed up for years. ? The administration has got away
with bold power grabs, out and out illegal activity and pretty much
wiping its collective ass with the Constitution. ?We the people have
pretty much just gone along as we bleat "whatever it takes to keep us
s-a-a-f-e". ? What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
travesty!
>>>

?

Amen to that!? It really bothers me that conversations about this subject on the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on planes.? Is losing much of our civil liberties as the?Western world turns into a massive high-tech?police state?amusing to Extro?list members??? Or are the people here hiding behind humor because they are afraid of big brother monitoring them, should the conversation turn serious and insightful??? 

?

Samantha continues:
Please wake up. ?It is no Muslims, or Al Qaeda (pitiful little group of
fanatics it really is) that you need to worry about. ? It is the end of
all freedom as you know or have known it. ?It is living and being pushed
about constantly by fear. ?It is sinking into a deep dark place where we
forget about a bright future along with our freedom and turn our not
inconsiderable intellects to every possible threat and search for,
Einstein help us, some "final solution".
>>>

?

I think *up to a point* Al Qaeda (and their?allies)?is going to be a chronic problem (but not a terminal disease, mind you) and the big question is whether the United States and other nations can do the required balancing act to effectively deal with them and yet not?irreparably violate our own?Western values and the?concepts/laws?regarding civil liberties and the rights of individual?citizens.???
?

I definitely believe a "bogeyman is going to get you/ let me?protect you (but never seriously?question/defy me...)?mentality" is being used by many in power to slyly manipulate the general public and violate our own principles and laws and get away with it.? We as?citizens of our respective nations?must stand up for the bright future we aspire?to, or else it may be stolen from us (for our own good of course...).? 

?

?

John Grigg

?

??? 



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http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Sun Apr  6 17:06:21 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:06:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406104840.023c7500@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080404235458.0516b858@satx.rr.com>	<200804051746.m35HjhKV023222@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080405131145.023be3a0@satx.rr.com>	<8CA65D782664D46-E2C-42A0@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>	<47F89934.4020109@mac.com>	<2d6187670804060820n1c1a2b8ex4a18f4f52d5eeb8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080406104840.023c7500@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA661FABAEFC0E-C68-729@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>

completely agree. 


Alex
wolf in sheeps clothing

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com




A. Blainey says: "It's still just a matter of time before wannabe 
martyrs start swallowing condoms full of C4." Presumably that kind of 
threat can be prevented by scanners.

I agree with Samantha that the whole Muslim-terrorist-under-the-bed 
panic is absurdly overstated and has been used for dubious purposes. 
Still, we do seem to be getting to the point where disgruntled kids 
or psychotics might find ways to do terrible and lethal damage to 
large systems we depend on. As I recall, John Brunner's grim novel 
THE SHEEP LOOK UP showed a world in which monkeywrenching of a pretty 
doable kind wrought havoc in large cities... and that was 1972, 
before everything was as interconnected and deteriorated as it is now.

Damien Broderick




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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 17:40:42 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:40:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <2d6187670804060745n2d39c4f5sc61b22e9092f90b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <1207503870_6859@S1.cableone.net>

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From pgptag at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 18:15:00 2008
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:15:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:06 AM, Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:

> Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's
> quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it
> here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is
> usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com

Life is a bitch. Or in Latin: life is a fucking bitch. I am so very sorry.

For what I know, MS is not life threatening (not more than other
chronic conditions), has a slow progress, can be kept under check, and
we must hope that more effective therapies are found soon.

Keep strong and write here more often!

Best, G.


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sun Apr  6 18:05:07 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:05:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
References: <536532.76241.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <03d601c89810$e3294310$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Lee said 
> 
> > True and False apply to assertions, or to maps.
> > Now you can have a true map, or literal model, of something
> > as opposed to false ones. For example, suppose we made a huge
> > scale model of the Mississippi valley, except that it contained
> > a single but very prominent glaring inaccuracy (say the Platte
> > river runs mainly south to north rather than west to east), and
> > then we all die.  An alien intelligence that makes its way to
> > Earth will, we may say, encounter this scale model, verify
> > its "truthfulness" except for that one tributary. So true and
> > false models do exist outside of human categories.
> 
> I have to point out that a map is only one kind of representation of
> the territory, and one that is produced for a specific purpose: an
> alien may well not recognise it as being representative, as she is
> focusing on completely different properties of the territory.

I want to claim that *objectively* existing relationships that
are sufficiently salient or "obvious" will be noticed by any
evolutionarily derived intelligence that has managed to survive,
because survival is impossible without an awareness of what
is objectively present in the environment. This *must* extend,
I claim, to an alien being able to locate and perceive large
scale objectively similar structures. 

> A cat for example does not understand the relationship
> between map symbolism and territory.

Heh, heh, and it's said that quite a few people don't either!  :-)
Which I appreciate.

> A Norwegian does not necessarily understand the relationship
> between English and the reality it supposedly depicts.

Oh, that's because the meaning of English is to a large extent
*conventional*, not isomorphic. The five letter term "zebra"
has only a conventional relationship to the stripped animal.
Isomorphic meaning, on the other hand, is objectively present
(or not) to some degree or other. Douglas Hofstadter, in
"Godel, Escher, Bach" has a particularly illuminating chapter
entitled "The Location of Meaning".

> The relationship between a symbolic system and the
> referent depend on understanding the syntax.

Well, yes, and unless I mistake your meaning, the
relationship also depends on a lot of assignments
by agreed upon convention, quite apart from questions
of grammar or syntax.

> In this example you are depending on the alien sharing the
> symbolic representation system that the human manufacturers
> use.

I don't think so.  If the model of the Mississippi Valley, for
example, is made of plaster, is more than a mile in size, and
the plaster has not yet had a chance to decompose, and it
is sufficiently detailed, then as a three dimensional structure
is really does have the *same* structure (only scaled down)
that the Mississippi Valley has. Once the isomorphism occurs
to an entity, it is exactly like the key to a cryptogram: from
then on, conjectures regarding the meaning of disparate parts
may be confirmed (and they will be). Entities who successfully
navigate through space to Earth will have the equipment to
detect such similarity;  the similarity is objective and non-
conventional (that is to say, it's of the isomorphism variety).

> A model, any model, necessarily exists within the category
> system (syntax) which it depends for its meaning.

As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.

> We can only speak subjectively, and in doing that we have to
> admit that our own context in asserting true or false may be
> denied as valid by another.

Well, any given *convention* may be disputed.  If I say it's
absolutely dark outside, you may say that on the contrary it's 
absolutely as well-lit as any day could be, it's possible that
we are not using the terms the same. Perhaps "dark" means
something altogether different to you.

But I claim that we can speak objectively, once the referents
to the words are agreed upon. Suppose that two organisms
(speaking the same Indo-European language) pass all sorts
of tests showing that the terms "Hawaii" and "people" are
used equivalently (i.e. under all the same conditions) by the
two organisms (people). If they also---as evolutionarily
derived organisms must, I assert---evolve, develop, and
have a sense of time, then the meaning of "Some people
have been to Hawaii" is completely objective and completely
inarguable. We *really* do presume that any space alien, for
example, if they communicate among themselves at all, will
have a language in which it is possible to translate at least
gross features of reality. Once this is done, then they too may
join us in making commonly translatable statements about
objective reality (e.g. is Jupiter bigger than the sun?).

> > What about Jupiter?  Would you say that there is no Jupiter
> > out there? What would that mean? If you were struck by a
> > car as you walked across a street, you would not surely
> > correct a police officer who came by and asked, "were you
> > struck by a car", with something like "you mean, my-perception-
> > of-police-officer, that I experienced terrible force applied to
> > my-perception-of-my-body by a perception that I had of a
> > "car".
> 
> Well, Jupiter is a human concept.

How could any entity, again the space alien, possibly navigate to
Earth if it did not have the ability to distinguish Jupiter and other
astronomical bodies from the Earth?  You and I are clearly
*referring* to different things.  I am referring to that great
gas thing out there that is about 1000 times the mass of the Earth.
You are doing what?  Perhaps referring to what is going on in
human brains?  I would call that (and refer to it) as "our concept
of Jupiter", or "our map of Jupiter", or "the impression that Jupiter
makes on us".  In each case, note that *I* am referring to the
gas giant.

Something is a human concept, I would suggest, just in case it has
no referent independent of human beings.

> Separable objects are human concepts. Our concepts are what
> we experience. We don't experience reality "as it is" because
> whatever objective reality there is gets articulated in finite,
> differentiated objects before it hits our brains.

I agree that we cannot experience reality "as it is". Those things
that are out there get first two-dimensionally mapped onto our
retinas (in the nicest case to describe, that of vision), and from
there there are further mappings that take place in our nervous
system. But the boundary between a glass on the table and the
table itself is objectively real---it is *not* a human manufactured
distinction.  All sorts of phenomena, take a wind storm, for 
example, separate the glass from the table quite easily, much 
more easily than the molecules of the table are separated from
each other.  This is why it makes sense and is objectively
correct for our distinctions to be made between "glass" and
"table" because in this case our distinctions do correspond to
actual, objective differences that are "out there".

> I don't claim I'm an anti-realist (I consistently fail to align myself
> with any philosophical school, ever since my brief infatuation
> with Hegel ended). The realist-antirealist dichotomy is just as
> naive as either taken on their own.)

I understand.

> All I say is this: Jupiter exists in the human mind, it's a semantic
> articulation of a particular experience which we then use to
> filter other experiences into.

Do you consider it just a vast coincidence that---take a river
instead of Jupiter---so many other animals happen to also
have "the river" in their "minds"?  They act as though they
understand that a river is where to go to relieve thirst, or
flee predators, or a place to avoid because for many it's
dangerous. Likewise, aliens will *certainly* be able to 
distinguish a river (or Jupiter) from surrounding entities.
All of this is a coincidence, because humans "just happen"
to have a certain semantic articulation?

I really suspect that you believe that what the rest of us
refer to as "rivers" and "planets" really are out there. You
do, after all, manage to navigate to the same places as
the rest of us.

> We can't step outside the human mind and know what
> reality is like outside of subjectivity, or outside of the
> human conceptual structure,

That's right.  We can only *conjecture* about the actual
relationships between things out there. As Popper and
Hayek have explained, all knowledge is conjectural.

> BUT my statement was referring to the question of
> Napoleon (this is the problem when you break up a
> paragraph into its constituent lines...the context and
> therefore meaning is lost).

Sorry---it does make an unfair demand on the reader
to go back and read it all at once, which I do have
to force myself to do after I've interrupted your
stream of thought.

> And yes, I still think that whether Napoleon "is" the
> nutter before us now just because he believes he is,
> or forever ceased to exist hundreds of years ago,
> is ultimately unimportant...because whatever we give
> as an answer makes no difference to anything. We
> might as well debate whether yellow is lighter than
> pink for all the importance the answer we reach will have.

Yes, I suppose that if history isn't a particular passion of
yours, then you will be comfortable however the question
is settled about whether this modern day person "really is"
the same person and Napoleon I of France (1769-1821).

But there are things we could talk about that are *vitally*
important to you, as, say whether the light really was 
red or really was green when you drove through it. And
what used to be simply a difference of opinion (for what
anyone could prove, even if, as sensible realists, they
knew that either you were right or you were wrong), today
we can establish beyond almost all doubt the actual objective
reality of what color the light was when your car went through
the intersection.  Therefore such statements as "Your honor,
the light was green" can be evaluated as really true or really
false.

Lee



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr  6 18:40:16 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:40:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
In-Reply-To: <03d601c89810$e3294310$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <536532.76241.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<03d601c89810$e3294310$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406133845.023d77a0@satx.rr.com>

At 11:05 AM 4/6/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:

>As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
>chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
>One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
>many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
>on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.

See also the nicely titled ONOMATOPOETICS by Joseph F. Graham, 
Cambridge University Press 1992.  



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 18:49:11 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 11:49:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804061149p2d7c4cf9u9045a8da68a6b93e@mail.gmail.com>

Gina Miller blogged:
I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, I've got people to love and I have a
lot of plans, big animation projects, stories that might turn there or into
books, nanotechnology applications to support, I've got a vision and I'm
going to meet it, I've got dreams and I'm going to keep on going. I've been
hard at work on these and I'm not going to stop. This I know. Jim and I will
conquer all this fragile biology and hopefully see the day that some
emerging technologies will make this a world that has a whole lot less
disease. And, with Jim by my side, well he is just the most selfless person,
he is genuine TLC. The BEST.
>>>

Wow.  Gina, you impress the hell out of me with your resilient attitude.
You are one tough-minded individual!  My very best wishes to you both.

Guilio wrote:
>>>Life is a bitch. Or in Latin: life is a fucking bitch. I am so very
sorry.

Well, Gina's an even tougher bitch/bastard and "life" is going to come out a
loser on this one!  : )  I'm betting on her and Jim making it.

Take care,

John (aspiring tough bitch/bastard)
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  6 19:21:49 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:21:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804061539.m36Fd24h021273@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F922CD.1050802@mac.com>

spike wrote:
> That being said, I am now calculating the impact of bad guys with plutonium.
> I am still convinced that detonating a nuke is technically difficult, but a
> dirty bomb is simple.

Please see the following links.  Apparently dirty bombs while 
undoubtedly nasty and to be avoided are a bit overhyped..   The military 
explored them and decided they were pretty uninteresting.   They can 
make a real mess  though they aren't immediate or even delayed death to 
many thousands of people as they are sometimes presented. 

http://www.k-state.edu/media/WEB/News/NewsReleases/Donnertletter.html
http://www.freedomforfission.org.uk/saf/terrorism.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv27n3/v27n3-5.pdf
http://www.labor-spiez.ch/en/dok/hi/pdf/dirty_bomb_E_def.pdf
http://www.pubsector.net/ELetters/EGovernment/v3n13/December2005Articles.lsp#threat
>   So how much plutonium would it take to mess up a city
> indefinitely?  The answers I keep getting are that the bad guys could
> increase the background radiation sufficiently such that some people would
> still choose to live there, and still be OK, many could live to old age
> there.
Yep.

>   But more health minded people would get scarce, which would include
> pretty much anyone with money and actual ability. 
It depends greatly on exactly what was used.  Very few dirty bomb 
scenarious actually justify as much fear and hysteria as would doubtless 
occur.

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  6 19:27:58 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:27:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47F9243E.9080408@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> 	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
> 	Subject: Re: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
> 	
> 	
> 	Samantha Atkins wrote:
> 	>>...What a charade, a farce, a tragicomic dark and depressing
> 	travesty!
> 	>>>
> 	 
> 	>Amen to that!  It really bothers me that conversations about this
> subject on the Extro-list turn "comical" with discussions of flying naked on
> planes.  Is losing much of our civil liberties as the Western world turns
> into a massive high-tech police state amusing to Extro list members??
> ...John Grigg
>
>
> Sure but keep in mind, it isn't bad old governments that are taking our
> civil liberties.  Consider dutch film maker Geert Wilders, maker of Fitna.
>   
> Some Europeans are seriously suggesting that he face criminal charges for
> *blasphemy*.  Of course they may have other names for it, inciting hatred,
> racist something or other, but cut thru that.  There is not one comment in
> his film that has anything to do with race.  It is blasphemy for which his
> life and liberty are being threatened.  Who woulda seen that coming?  It
> isn't governments doing this, it is religion, that is threatening loss of
> civil liberties in Europe.  
>   

True but that there are idiots among the population at large is far less 
of a concern to me.  It is governments that kill on massive scale and 
oppress huge populations.   Their attitudes and actions worry me a lot more.


- samantha


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 19:57:59 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 21:57:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <47F9243E.9080408@mac.com>
References: <200804061618.m36GIQ1e013383@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<47F9243E.9080408@mac.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804061257p793aa876xf40003053205e47@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> True but that there are idiots among the population at large is far less
> of a concern to me.  It is governments that kill on massive scale and
> oppress huge populations.   Their attitudes and actions worry me a lot
> more.
>

Right. Unfortunately, only too often governments happen to be sensitive to
idiots' biases among the population... :-)

Stefano Vaj
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 20:10:40 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:10:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] root cause analysis- towards a functional semi-automated
	consumer-driven economically sustainable health system paradigm
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804061310v7817af91waac25f569173e57d@mail.gmail.com>

The dysfunctionality within health care is evidenced by the spiralling total
cost for public and private plans as well as private paid and the value of
services unrendered or unavailable for cost or regulatory reasons.

Using ABC (activity based costing) , we can document a "kazillion" instances
of cost of some billable item not showing benefits appropriate for the
device/service/drug/consult.

Conversely those with knowledge of healthcare economics can document how
using QALY (quality adjusted life year)  math can deem some relatively low
cost ABC billed items not to be cost effective enough to cover.

The root cause is perhaps twofold.

Ist is transparancy of costs.   In Canada we do not get access to a yearly
detailed
bill describing each item and its billed cost.  Secondly some items costing
may be not tied to a single ABC and no sidenote to describe the contributing
cost factors is made available.

2nd and I feel most important is the inability and unwillingness to allow
any citizen to have full access to any health related information so that
they can independantly decide what action they want.  The major players are
comfortable to work privately with regulators and screen information.
Doctors and other gatekeepers are not designed to be educators as they
must first manage the crisis cases and the routine tasks before anthing
else.
There are better ways to deliver health information than the traditional
providers.
The alternative medicine consultation system has good intentions but also
its own sales adjendas.
The logical delivery is the lay media.
Regulators have made it nearly illegal to provide really unlimited access to
fundamental science information.


Dumbed down lay media and approved advertising is perhaps the root cause of
the health care economic crisis.

I spend time anytime I want to search various university based journal ,
media and trade information sources.
The ordinary person either cannot or chooses not to do this.

As a health product manufacturer I would have a much easier time to find my
target market if they were more informed.

Governments might rather have dumb citizens who are managed, but I do not
believe they have a vision of how
an open information access system might revitalize the crisis-managment
portion so that it can deliver
those items less often to fewer customers.

In effect this automates a self-driven health management protocol.

So in reflection much as automation has made mass produced consumer goods
possible , and automation of communication is the basis of the global
communications net perhaps a new automation of diagnosis, consultation and
personally driven health management paradigm.

Morris Johnson
Box 10, Beaubier, Sk., S0C-0H0
Canada   306-447-4944  ;  701-240-9411



Message: 25
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 05:07:22 -0400
From: ablainey at aol.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] Health system, again
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Message-ID: <8CA65DCC17359C0-E2C-42DB at WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anywhere that there is an interface between two organisations which charge
each other for a service or product, there is wastage. This is true of any
commercial bodies such as in a private health system and Even in fully
publicly funded systems such as a national health service. In the case of
national services, this is usually done to bolster inadequate budgets, but
also because many people in the system get bonuses of some kind which they
try to maximise.
There is always someone skimming off the cream at these interfaces and it is
fully accepted.
For some reason we don't like the idea of paying for someone else's health
cover, Smokers being a prime example. But we have no problem paying for the
CEO's new yauht and a box full of Cuban cigars.
Cost cutting exercises, streamlining and?scrutiny of the system?generally
forces these costs down through the chain to the first interfaces, so a
tampon cost's $1200
Its a shame that such an expensive tampon can't be used to stop the
heamorage of money!

Alex




ginal Message-----
From: Kevin Freels kevinfreels at insightbb.com





Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is what has caused
the skyrocketing costs in the first place. People no longer saw nor cared
what they were being charged because someone else was paying the bill so the
market forces controlling costs were removed. It's the cost of BS we all
pay.

For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to the ER at 3 am
because she had a nosebleed that started at 9pm and hadn't stopped. We
waited 3 hours, then saw a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a
small tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for the ER
visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out of curiosity, I saw
that the Dr charge was $440 for the 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200!
Plus there was another $300 worth of supplies and such. I called and asked
the hospital about this obvious error and they said that yes, the bill was
correct, the "medical device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was
supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which would have been a $25
co-pay office visit ($120 in insurance), but just to spite the system, I
pulled the thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding was
obviously gone.

I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue. If Drs are in such
short supply, maybe allowing more into medical school or? allowing?
practicing nurses to? do more would be in order and help to drive some of
these costs down. I think that the free market isn;t working because the
market is not free.
?





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net,  arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr  6 19:56:28 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:56:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <778293.65662.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

John Grigg wrote:
>>>

>I can only imagine what will happen when Damien
>Broderick is made the Aussie Homeland Security
Czar...
>
>John  ;  )

I can imagine what will happen when you combine Aussie
attitudes with advanced security technologies. It will
come down to one of two things. (Please don't take
offence Damien, I'm sure you have no desire to run
Australia as a police state).

1. You go through a pleasant looking airport, with
friendly customer service offering free tea and
coffee. Pleasing signs try to reassure you flying is
safe, and Security Minister Broderick's picture is
shown with him making a big thumbs up gesture with the
tagline "No worries!"
 The free tea and coffee is a ruse to make you swallow
the nanotech that will scan you internally and assist
with the brain reading MRI scanner in the security
gates. You are violated in every way possible that
nanotech can manage, just so there is no possibility
of terrorism.

2. You go into a huge, scary looking airport where you
have to check in well in advance for all the security
procedures. You are warned that advanced AIs are
scanning your every move and monitoring your
behaviour. At any minute one of Minister Broderick's
black-clad minions may drag you off to be
strip-searched and have your DNA tested. You have been
warned of all the rights you must waive in order to go
through the security check.
 Should you feel the hand of the faceless trooper
dragging you out of the line, the following will
happen:
they take you into a side-room, the trooper takes his
mirror-faced helmet off and says "G'day! Fancy some
tea? Sorry about this, we've got a quota to meet. If
we don't drag off enough people, we will fail our
"intimidating the flying public" target. We just need
you to sit here for fifteen minutes, then leave and
loudly complain about the unpleasant tests you've had.
This gun?It's not loaded. No worries"
 The whole scheme is designed to intimidate the
terrorists from even trying, and "hugely expensive AI
behaviour scanners" is a front for Damien to secretly
channel goverment money into nanotech research.

Tom


      ___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference  

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  6 20:40:17 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:40:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:
> Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and
> cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
> A direct link to my post is here:
>
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

I am sorry to hear about your condition, Gina. It may cheer you up to
hear that science is making pretty good progress in understanding it.
It seems to be far more environmental than genetic although some
genetic backgrounds such as the eskimos are very resistant to it. The
biggest buzz in the medical journals lately is the link between MS
progression and vitamin D deficiency caused by living in high latitudes
and/or dietary insufficiency. Living in the Seattle area as you do, it
would probably benefit you to get some sunlight or UV B action going
on. If you can't relocate southward than maybe tanning booths are a
doable alternative. In any case summer is coming so try and soak up
whatever sun you can. I expect you to post bikini photos as proof that
you are following my advice. ;-) Also rituxamab (generic for Rituxan)
has been showing some preliminary promise as a treatment, but I'll
leave recommendations for drugs per se to your doctor.


Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr  6 21:25:01 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:25:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <778293.65662.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<778293.65662.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080406161927.0249bdf0@satx.rr.com>

At 08:56 PM 4/6/2008 +0100, Tom Nowell wrote:

>I can imagine what will happen when you combine Aussie
>attitudes with advanced security technologies.

Too roight, matey! Spot on! Laughed so much I hadda point Percy at 
the porcelain before I stained me daks. (Bit of exaggeration there, 
cobber, but she'll be sweet.)



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 21:33:00 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:33:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200804061633.00767.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Sunday 06 April 2008, The Avantguardian wrote:
> I am sorry to hear about your condition, Gina. It may cheer you up to
> hear that science is making pretty good progress in understanding it.
> It seems to be far more environmental than genetic although some
> genetic backgrounds such as the eskimos are very resistant to it. The
> biggest buzz in the medical journals lately is the link between MS
> progression and vitamin D deficiency caused by living in high
> latitudes and/or dietary insufficiency. Living in the Seattle area as
> you do, it would probably benefit you to get some sunlight or UV B
> action going on. If you can't relocate southward than maybe tanning
> booths are a doable alternative. In any case summer is coming so try
> and soak up whatever sun you can. I expect you to post bikini photos
> as proof that you are following my advice. ;-) Also rituxamab
> (generic for Rituxan) has been showing some preliminary promise as a
> treatment, but I'll leave recommendations for drugs per se to your
> doctor.

I looked around and it looks like 'old' (90s) treatments experimentally 
involved bone marrow transplants to reboot the immuen system. But the 
problem with this is that it killed the patients since it involved so 
many immunosuppressants. It may be beneficial to look into the latest 
research of blood rebooting and bone marrow transplant. The example I 
can cite off the top of my head is in sickle-cell disease, recently 
cured in a rat through these methods, without the need of 
immunosuppressants. Here's how: a cheek swab was taken from a mouse, 
DNA was extracted, the fix to the red blood cells were made (a very few 
genes), and then from there the researchers grew new bone marrow and 
injected it into the rat. From what I recall, everything was fine after 
that. So, if there's similar immune system problems implicated in 
multiple scelerosis, let's see what we can do. 

There's also a good amount of information on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapies_under_investigation_for_multiple_sclerosis

Most of them are chemical, which makes me wonder what these people are 
thinking. Blood transfusions and rebooting the immune system is a one 
time thing. Chemical treatments do not guarantee diffusion nor do they 
guarantee that there will not be some times in the day when the B or T 
cells get to start attacking. Any doctors around to comment?

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 21:40:18 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:40:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical news from nanogirl...MFJ response
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804061440p1f2a19b2xec456b4b52b344cd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gina:

Sorry for the frank note that fallows...........

I am a bit prejudiced about MS as my wife Arla was diagnosed in 1987 and
died of it in 2004.
But before I freak you out Arla's progression is in the minority.
The vast majority are amongst  the walking wounded.
However we extropians pride ourselves as being able to solve those insoluble
problems, so we have a reputation to uphold, right?

So having opened the can of worms, let me set my reasoning down.

Over 10 years from 1994 to 2004 I spent 12,000 hours online researching  and
brought several MS drugs into play.
Arla had the 1000 mg solumedrol sessions of 3-5 day duration  about 4 times
a year from 1998 to -2003.
The first few years she would say "I have the good form or MS".  .. as
opposed to chronic progressive.
The relapsing remitting occurances left measureable effects over the years
and by 2002 became chronic progressive.
The last year things really got nasty when several seizures almost effected
her like strokes.

The really good science came too late for her.
Over the years I did determine several things however.
If it were to happen again the estriol ( a very weak estrogen), the vitamin
D (perhaps as mucvh as 5000 IU/day,
the non psychogenic cannabinoid CBD from hemp, would be among the first line
defences and would be used when there were no symptoms and not as a response
to accelerating disability.

We never did not use therapies such as methotrexate some others used.  In
spite of being toxic they seem to have kept some people from getting to the
end stages.

Aggressive use of cruciferous phase 2 inducers such as those from broccoli
sprouts and cress should have been  a daily dietary addition to reduce the
silent  oxidative stress underlying the more detrimental MS related
processes.

We never had the interferons available until the health plan determined it
was not pharmacoeconomically feasible to get them.

In hindsight that is what made me start LIFESPAN PHARMA in 2005.

So what I am suggesting is to plan carefully then  shoot first and ask
questions later....at least that is what I'd do if it were me.



Morris Johnson
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
.......extropian.pharmer          AT              gmail
DOT             com




-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net,  arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  6 22:00:37 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:00:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] root cause analysis- towards a functional semi-automated
	consumer-driven economically sustainable health system paradigm
In-Reply-To: <61c8738e0804061310v7817af91waac25f569173e57d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61c8738e0804061310v7817af91waac25f569173e57d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804061500p402a8c26vdf0d7072d8a4512d@mail.gmail.com>

I left off part of  the solution to root cause 2;

Universal access to the full university reseach databases for all taxpayers,
not just grads and alumni.
That hoard of baby boomers who will bankrupt medicare and die a slow ageing
unnecessarily are not as dumb or need proection from themselves as the
regulators would have it.

MFJ
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr  6 22:17:49 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:17:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...
> 
> ...His film accuses the Koran of inciting violence.
> In response there are violent protests around the Muslim 
> world, and death threats to him.
> 
> Duh!!!
> 
> No signs of tolerance there.  It is all "Kill the infidels!"
> 
> BillK

Oh NO!  The fidels are planning to make a *counter* film, called Beyond
Fitna, which points out that the BIBLE urges violence too!  Oh dreaded
blasphemy!  Woe is me, what shall we do?

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8701160258

Actually I haven't trusted that book since the Rev. Jeremiah Wright uttered
the comment:

"...God DAMN America!  That's in the bible!..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPR5jnjtLo

I consulted the online bible concordance for "God DAMN America" but no hits.
Then I entered just America, no hits.  God damn and goddamn, no hits and no
hits.  But if Rev. Wright says it's in there, I will take his word for it,
for he sounded so very sincere and scholarly, and his congregation is very
supportive (but note the lady in the choir just to his left.  {8^D  Her body
language seems to be saying "Did I really hear what I just heard?")  Perhaps
the concordance writers missed it somehow.

In any case, when Beyond Fitna is released, surely thousands of
christianists will riot in the streets, crying for blood (or at least
plasma) as a counterpart to this tiny minority:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,347014,00.html

What I see here is a cultural conflict at the most fundamental level.  In
the west we can legally say whatever we feel.  In the presbyterian world,
some words can get you killed; blasphemy is (STILL!) considered a capital
offense.  I don't know how this will be resolved in the internet age.  Any
guesses?

spike




  



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 22:57:21 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 15:57:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>

Gary Miller wrote:

 >Keith and John were discussing:
 >At 10:34 AM 4/5/2008, John K Clark wrote:
(keith)

 >> > Nanotube cable probably won't be much of a conductor.
 >
 >>At the very least some nanotubes are better conductors of electricity
 >than silver and better conductors of heat than diamond. There is even
 >some indication that multi walled nanotubes may be ballistic
 >conductors, that means their resistance is only weakly coupled to their
 >length; at least that's how short ones seem to act, nobody knows how
 >one 22000 miles long would behave except to say it would be better than any
metal.
 >Maybe much much better.
 >
 > > how you are going to restrain the magnetic forces pushing the cables
 > > apart?
 >
 >>>Magnetism is produced by current, high voltage power lines don't carry
 >>a lot of current.
 >
 >>Please put numbers on this statement.  I think you will be astounded.

 >My Response:

(no numbers included)

A GW is 1,000,000,000 watts.  The highest 
voltages that work for DC transmission are less 
than a million volts.  So just to get down 1 GW 
by wires would mean 1000 amps, and we are talking 
thousands of GW.  Now ignoring all the other 
problems that (for example) burned out the 
shuttle tether experiment, just consider the force acting on the wires

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amp%C3%A8re%27s_force_law

"Thus, for two parallel wires carrying a current 
of 1 A, and spaced apart by 1 m in 
vacuum,<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amp%C3%A8re%27s_force_law#cite_note-4>[5] 
the force on each wire per unit length is exactly 2 ? 10-7 N/m."

It would be .2 N/m for 1000 amps, which is 200 
N/km, or about 7.14 million N going to GEO.  The 
force *does* go down as down as you separate the 
wires, but it also goes up by the *square* of the 
current.  What is going on is that a loop of wire 
carrying a current tends to open up to a hoop in space.

 From the URL you cited

"From an engineering perspective, Ultraconductors 
are a fundamentally new and enabling technology. 
They are lightweight, flexible, transparent, and 
possess magnetic, electric, and electronic 
properties of exceptionally high commercial value."

Does this raise any flags in your mind?  Hint, 
are there any other transparent conductors?  Is that even possible?

snip

 >My biggest fear of such a technology is that it would be to easy to knock
totally out of operation in war time.

Are you talking about using wires for transmission or power sats in general?

There would be thousands of them in GEO and 
thousands of rectennas on earth.  How are you 
proposing either one could be knocked out, and in 
particular how are they more vulnerable than coal or nuclear plants?

 >And would be devastating to any
economy depending on that energy source. Maybe by making such a system the
property of the world or a large group of developed nations it would prevent
any nation at war with one of the countries depending on that energy source
from making it a target and risking the wrath of the other nations.

One point of building these things is to avoid 
wars fought over dwindling resources.

Keith





From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr  6 23:11:05 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:11:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207523561_7963@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:13 AM 4/6/2008, BillK wrote:

snip

>That is not the only danger. It becomes a single point of failure for
>our civilization.
>That is too big a risk.

How?  It's a serious question.  If you can make a solid case for the 
whole constellation of a thousand or more of them being wiped out in 
a single failure, then perhaps they are too much risk.  The 
consequences of not replacing carbon fuels is a really dire risk as 
well.  Consider that something like 3/4 of humans will die in the collapse.

>It would be like building one huge nuclear power station for the whole
>of the US. Too much centralisation is 'a bad thing'.  You would have
>to shut the country down for weeks to repair a major fault.
>
>Distributed energy sources is the failsafe way to go. Future buildings
>covered with solar cells, etc. become self-sufficient, with power
>stations used to supply factories and big energy consumers.

Work out the numbers for a typical apartment building in NYC.  Then 
tell us how much energy each person gets.  Re putting them on 
buildings, remember that the amount of sunlight you get on earth is a 
small part of what you can get out in space.  If you have a square 
mile of them, no matter how little they cost, where is the best place 
to put them?  If the cells are *free* you get the same answer.

NUMBERS people NUMBERS.  You are engaged in useless flapping without 
at least a rough engineering analysis of what you say.  Ask for help 
if you don't know how to do it, but please don't make statements of 
an engineering nature without doing the damned numbers.

Keith





From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  6 23:19:11 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:19:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <907709.13368.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Lee. Thanks for continuing this. 

>As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
>chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
>One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
>many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
>on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.

I think isomorphism makes some quite specific assumptions about perception. I'm pointing this out now, and I think what I mean will become clearer later. That said, I really must read some Hofstadter. Sounds like a dude.

>How could any entity, again the space alien, possibly navigate to
>Earth if it did not have the ability to distinguish Jupiter and other
>astronomical bodies from the Earth?  

Well - it was your idea to start comparing humans to this specific alien which had travelled specifically to earth. I might argue that the conditions on the discussion determine the outcome. My point would be that there is nothing in reality to force the particular understanding of reality that we have. 

>You and I are clearly
>*referring* to different things.  I am referring to that great
>gas thing out there that is about 1000 times the mass of the Earth.
>You are doing what?  Perhaps referring to what is going on in
>human brains?  I would call that (and refer to it) as "our concept
>of Jupiter", or "our map of Jupiter", or "the impression that Jupiter
>makes on us".  In each case, note that *I* am referring to the
>gas giant.

It's a trivial point, but even when you think you're referring 'out there', what you're looking at is still in your head.

>But the boundary between a glass on the table and the
>table itself is objectively real---it is *not* a human manufactured
>distinction.  All sorts of phenomena, take a wind storm, for 
>example, separate the glass from the table quite easily, much 
>more easily than the molecules of the table are separated from
>each other.  This is why it makes sense and is objectively
>correct for our distinctions to be made between "glass" and
>"table" because in this case our distinctions do correspond to
>actual, objective differences that are "out there".

But this is all based on our particular, peculiar, level of perception. Those entities we call glass and table are themselves constructed from many smaller entities. Their molecular structure is constantly shifting. We have one specific macroscopic perspective, which articulates the glass as a temporally persisting identity in distinction from the table. Another being may well have a different one which doesn't perceive the "glass" at all, but perceives the molecules perpetually shifting their relations, and only trivially forming any temporary macroscopic objects. Or it could perceive the macroscopic identity as being of a much higher level (the glass itself is trivial - it is the larger system of which the glass is an atomic component which is the real identity). Or it could experience time in a different way...or causation could appear very different to it, shattering notions of individuality whatsoever. Do you see the large point I'm making? I'm not
 talking about distinctions as shallow as realist vs antirealist, or a French word vs an English word, I'm saying that the nature of subjectivity is such that we cannot even know what other subjectivities look like. We have to question our very most basic assumptions, because they have all been evolved for specific reasons, to help us survive in a very particular environment. And, unless I'm mistaken we share this basic 'object' world view with the other sentient beings on this planet because we all share a lot of history and biology. It's not something as simple as culture or humanity which has shaped this understanding of the world...our very beings are based on understanding the world in this way, of presenting a finite comprehensible picture which is generally coherent, so that we can actually make a fair stab at acting and surviving in the world. But what we think is like a child's drawing. Our perceptions aren't a photograph, they're a surrealist
 sketch.


>Yes, I suppose that if history isn't a particular passion of
>yours, then you will be comfortable however the question
>is settled about whether this modern day person "really is"
>the same person and Napoleon I of France (1769-1821).

I thought of a better example than the yellow-pink one after sending the last email. We can choose whether to measure something in Metres or in Feet. The rule we use makes no difference to the reality, which is what it is regardless of which set of numbers we give it. This is like attempting to measure what constitutes the self, any particular self. It's not that I am unconcerned about whether Napoleon still exists in another body, or still exists at all. It's that the idea of there being a single consistent person, a self, called Napoleon is a human conceit. There is no single thing which correlates to this word, just like there is no single thing which correlates to the word 'love'. Selfhood is a convention. Just because it seems very specific (if slippery) to us, doesn't mean there is any objective quality which is referred to by it, or even any objective quality referrable by it. This is even more clearly the case than my last paragraph I think - the
 evolutionary need for us to believe in a consistent identity, to group all these different perceptions, thoughts, sensations, actions, relationships, bodily parts etc into a single cohesive entity far outweighs the idea that actually we are a collective of vastly different co-operating processes, a macroscopic entity made up of many networked independent cells which work together for some reason of which we are not aware...the 'ego', the thinking mind, sits on the organism like a crown and believes itself the ruler but in fact it is only the most focussed of many elements, almost all of which it is unaware of.

>But there are things we could talk about that are *vitally*
>important to you, as, say whether the light really was 
>red or really was green when you drove through it. And
>what used to be simply a difference of opinion (for what
>anyone could prove, even if, as sensible realists, they
>knew that either you were right or you were wrong), today
>we can establish beyond almost all doubt the actual objective
>reality of what color the light was when your car went through
>the intersection.  Therefore such statements as "Your honor,
>the light was green" can be evaluated as really true or really
>false.

I refer you to this (all too brief) passage: 								
	<!--
		@page { margin: 2cm }
		P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm }
	-->
	http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_16.html#boroditsky


and also to this article from New Scientist (which I don't think you can read without a subscription): http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg19726373.300-is-there-a-language-problem-with-quantum-physics.html

basically what it says is that, just as the quantum world can't be understood in classical terms such as assigning a specific 'position' or 'speed' to a particle, so we have to be very careful when applying any of our implicit notions to the world. Our language "contains deep assumptions about space, time and causality - assumptions that do not apply to the quantum world" - in fact, apply only to the particular interpretation of reality that our senses have come to provide us with. 

"When we say "the cat chases the mouse" we are dealing with well-definedobjects (nouns), which are connected via verbs. Likewise, classicalphysics deals with objects that are well located in space and time,which interact via forces and fields. But if the world doesn't work theway our language does, advances are inevitably hindered." To which I have to ask, where is the 'well-defined cat'? It exists only in our minds and our language. I'm not saying there is no material cat. I'm saying that the reality isn't as neat and tidy (either spatially, temporally, causally or intentionally) as we like to think. And this is true of every 'object' we can talk about. Just because we have a clear-cut word which is definable in separation from everything else, doesn't mean that carries over into reality. Or into other beings' perception of reality. Ultimately it says more about us and our priorities than it does about the world 'out there'.

Oh, and one last point about our hypothetical alien - in order to communicate effectively with it, of course it must share our world schema to some degree. Such is always the case. We must start from the same basic perspective in order to be able to exchange symbols meaningfully.

Mike

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      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 05:28:16 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:58:16 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Gene for Ruthlessness?
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080404/full/news.2008.738.html

It's a bit of a beatup. Still food for thought. We'd expect to see a
genetic indicator of "defector" behaviour in the general population,
maybe this is part of it?

What percentage of defectors do we expect to see in the general
population, anyway?

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 09:06:13 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 19:06:13 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral Screeners
In-Reply-To: <200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>

On 07/04/2008, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  Actually I haven't trusted that book since the Rev. Jeremiah Wright uttered
>  the comment:
>
>  "...God DAMN America!  That's in the bible!..."
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPR5jnjtLo
>
>  I consulted the online bible concordance for "God DAMN America" but no hits.
>  Then I entered just America, no hits.  God damn and goddamn, no hits and no
>  hits.  But if Rev. Wright says it's in there, I will take his word for it,
>  for he sounded so very sincere and scholarly, and his congregation is very
>  supportive (but note the lady in the choir just to his left.  {8^D  Her body
>  language seems to be saying "Did I really hear what I just heard?")  Perhaps
>  the concordance writers missed it somehow.

It's not in the Bible, but the Reverend in his diatribe is taking the
popular view that the Bible condemns all acts which the average human
being would call "evil". This isn't actually true: as a literary
character, the Biblical God is by civilised human standards at least
as evil as any other fictional villain.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From aiguy at comcast.net  Mon Apr  7 13:56:57 2008
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:56:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com><200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>


This article was surprisingly downbeat because the vaccine did not repair
the preexisting damage done by the disease.

But if the vaccine was given to the population at adulthood and stopped the
disease from forming in the first place it would prevent any damage from
occurring.

Assuming there are not a lot of people in the general population harmed by
allergic reactions to the vaccine or other unforeseen side effects, I would
see this as the greatest medical breakthrough of this century!

And just in time to prevent an horde of senile baby boomers large enough to
finish bankrupting this once great nation!

Where do I line up?  Let the human trials begin!

This is one vaccine that the FDA should definitely streamline the testing
process for.  Maybe not for the general population but at least for people
at the age group where serious plaque buildup begins and who are genetically
at high risk due to a family history of the disease.  I think anyone who has
gone through watching a parent or grandparent deteriorate and die from this
disease should be allowed to take the risk on the vaccine to protect
themselves!

 
http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1755



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Apr  7 15:37:55 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:37:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>


In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and 
analytical criticism of transhumanism?

Many thanks,
Natasha




From jonkc at att.net  Mon Apr  7 16:29:33 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:29:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> It [the magnetic force between wires] would
> be .2 N/m for 1000 amps

Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't understand your point. 
One Newton is the force of earth's gravity on an object with a mass
of 102 g, so we're talking about a force of 20 grams per meter.
A meter long toothpick wade of WOOD inserted ever meter to act as
a spacer to keep the wires the proper distance apart would be far 
stronger than necessary.

> about 7.14 million N going to GEO.

That's tiny!

  John K Clark







From moses2k at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 17:40:38 2008
From: moses2k at gmail.com (Chris Petersen)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:40:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Chimerical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <3aff9e290804071040j79fa73b4wcb04db368e79bc11@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

>
> In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>

'H' is the well-established symbol for Hydrogen, and 'H+' is already used to
denote a positively charged hydrogen ion, rendering the whole 'H' and 'H+'
terminology acerbic and periodically confusing to laypersons and chemists
alike (you need the latter for research of MNT, you know).

-Chris

P.S. This joke comes with no warranty expressed or implied, you handsome
devils (it's unwarranted).
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Apr  7 18:27:16 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:27:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:29 AM 4/7/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
> > It [the magnetic force between wires] would
> > be .2 N/m for 1000 amps
>
>Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't understand your point.

You did.  This was for a highly optimistic voltage and *one* GW.  The 
force I noted goes up as the square of the current.  Plug in 1000 GW 
which is the production of about 3 years of power sats and try 
again.  You can also reduce the voltage to a more reasonable number.

There is an additional problem.  If a space elevator/tether is cut it 
falls along the equator.  Not a hazard on the ground since the 
terminal velocity of the cables is no higher than rope of a similar 
low density.  But it's a major problem in space because it whacks at 
high speed into other elevators/tethers if there are any.  Bringing 
down hundreds of power leads from GEO is just inviting a catastrophe.

Still another problem, high vacuum and air good insulators, but low 
pressure gas is not, and these wires transit a lot of low pressure 
gas.  Any ideas for really lightweight solution?  If you *really* 
have something against microwaves, bringing power down 
mechanically  like the elevator sends it up might be the best solution.

>One Newton is the force of earth's gravity on an object with a mass
>of 102 g, so we're talking about a force of 20 grams per meter.
>A meter long toothpick wade of WOOD inserted ever meter to act as
>a spacer to keep the wires the proper distance apart would be far
>stronger than necessary.

You also missed that the force is in tension.  Shut off the power and 
the wires are going to move toward each other.  Unless you do have 
close spacers that also work in compression to keep them apart, the 
conductors are going to hit and stick in the vacuum.  Be an 
interesting task to bring them back into service.

> > about 7.14 million N going to GEO.
>
>That's tiny!

It's 1/5 the lift off thrust of a Saturn 5, and it's applied in a way 
which is massively multiplied into tension on the conductors.

Keith




From jonkc at att.net  Mon Apr  7 20:57:05 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:57:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> Shut off the power and the wires are going to move
> toward each other. Unless you do have close spacers
> that also work in compression to keep them apart

As I said one wooden toothpick every meter would work just fine, ever
hundred meters probably but I was trying to be conservative.

>high vacuum and air good insulators, but low
>pressure gas is not, and these wires transit a
>lot of low pressure gas.  Any ideas for really
>lightweight solution?

Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred miles of its 22000
mile length.

Me:
>>That's [7.14 million Newtons] tiny!

You:
> It's 1/5 the lift off thrust of a Saturn 5

For heavens sake! Every day designers who got a C in engineering school
design dull drab apartment buildings that tame forces much greater than
7.14 million Newtons. And this is supposed to be a show stopper for a
boiling water IQ civil engineer with Nanotechnology at his command?
I don't think so.

> If a space elevator/tether is cut it falls along the equator. Not a
> hazard on the ground since the terminal velocity of the cables is no
> higher than rope of a similar low density.  But it's a major problem in
> space because it whacks at high speed into other elevators/tethers if
> there are any.  Bringing down hundreds of power leads from GEO
> is just inviting a catastrophe.

On the other hand the above could very well be a show stopper, but that's
true of all space elevators not just the ones that have power lines in them.

> If you *really* have something against microwaves

I have nothing against microwaves, nothing except that the beam you're
talking about would be several billion times as powerful as any made
before and when you try to make something even ten times as large as
ever existed before in just one jump something almost always goes wrong,
and except that it would take many thousands of square miles to receive
the power, and except for the fact that nobody has a clue how such a
beam would effect the environment, and except for the fact that
environmentalists would tie you up in court for CENTURIES, except for that
I have nothing against microwaves.

Having said all this I must admit that Power Satellites may nevertheless
have a future, it's just that I think the power they produce could best
be consumed in space, perhaps in something like Gerald O'Neal's space
colonies.

Most people on this list would be delighted if the human race expanded
into space, but individuals will never be willing to make that move unless
they thought it would bring them a better life. I can't see how a Mars or
Moon colony could do that, anything Mars or the Moon can provide the
Earth can do better. However an type O'Neal space colony might offer
something Earth cannot, cheap energy. It is not at all obvious that the
surface of a planet is the best place for a rapidly evolving technological
civilization.

  John K Clark









From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Mon Apr  7 21:29:25 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:29:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <47F8ADB0.9060209@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.42.1207474507.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<47F8ADB0.9060209@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <908B5E2CEB234024BF1F1620A391F4A1@GinaSony>

Thank you Ben, I do too : ) Yesterday I had the third infusion and didn't feel like writing but today I do, so that's good. I think the drug is worn off a bit since yesterday (it had a rather sluggish effect on me). It hasn't quite cleared up the visuals that it's supposed to resolve but it's supposed to soon - within a week . I really appreciate all the support my fellow extropes provide to me, it means a lot especially considering that we have the same vision for the future, one that holds many a cures....


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://www.nanogirl.com

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ben 
  To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 4:02 AM
  Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  Damn, Gina, so sorry to hear this.

  Best wishes, and I hope you are in that 20% group.

  ben zaiboc
  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Mon Apr  7 21:32:21 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:32:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <20080406154107.SKKW10963.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<20080406154107.SKKW10963.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <79320581F784400699B93EE3EF5169FA@GinaSony>

Thank you Natasha - you are always a dear friend. I am glad to have this forum available to me. It is a comfort. Kind regards, 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Natasha Vita-More 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  At 01:06 AM 4/6/2008, Gina wrote:


    A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html 

  Gina, I am concerned about your health and thank you for keeping us all informed.  You did the right thing.  

  My thoughts are with you and please know that I am always here for you,

  Natasha



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Apr  7 22:16:18 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:16:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
In-Reply-To: <002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>

At 01:57 PM 4/7/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
> > Shut off the power and the wires are going to move
> > toward each other. Unless you do have close spacers
> > that also work in compression to keep them apart
>
>As I said one wooden toothpick every meter would work just fine, ever
>hundred meters probably but I was trying to be conservative.
>
> >high vacuum and air good insulators, but low
> >pressure gas is not, and these wires transit a
> >lot of low pressure gas.  Any ideas for really
> >lightweight solution?
>
>Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred miles of its 22000
>mile length.

That's not a lightweight solution, plus the fact that atomic oxygen 
will eat the rubber.

>Me:
> >>That's [7.14 million Newtons] tiny!
>
>You:
> > It's 1/5 the lift off thrust of a Saturn 5
>
>For heavens sake! Every day designers who got a C in engineering school
>design dull drab apartment buildings that tame forces much greater than
>7.14 million Newtons. And this is supposed to be a show stopper for a
>boiling water IQ civil engineer with Nanotechnology at his command?
>I don't think so.

It's more like a million times that high at 1000 GW.

> > If a space elevator/tether is cut it falls along the equator. Not a
> > hazard on the ground since the terminal velocity of the cables is no
> > higher than rope of a similar low density.  But it's a major problem in
> > space because it whacks at high speed into other elevators/tethers if
> > there are any.  Bringing down hundreds of power leads from GEO
> > is just inviting a catastrophe.
>
>On the other hand the above could very well be a show stopper, but that's
>true of all space elevators not just the ones that have power lines in them.

You can build power sats from one elevator.

> > If you *really* have something against microwaves
>
>I have nothing against microwaves, nothing except that the beam you're
>talking about would be several billion times as powerful as any made
>before and when you try to make something even ten times as large as
>ever existed before in just one jump something almost always goes wrong,
>and except that it would take many thousands of square miles to receive
>the power, and except for the fact that nobody has a clue how such a
>beam would effect the environment, and except for the fact that
>environmentalists would tie you up in court for CENTURIES, except for that
>I have nothing against microwaves.
>
>Having said all this I must admit that Power Satellites may nevertheless
>have a future, it's just that I think the power they produce could best
>be consumed in space, perhaps in something like Gerald O'Neal's space
>colonies.
>
>Most people on this list would be delighted if the human race expanded
>into space, but individuals will never be willing to make that move unless
>they thought it would bring them a better life. I can't see how a Mars or
>Moon colony could do that, anything Mars or the Moon can provide the
>Earth can do better. However an type O'Neal space colony might offer
>something Earth cannot, cheap energy. It is not at all obvious that the
>surface of a planet is the best place for a rapidly evolving technological
>civilization.

Do you remember who I am?  There was a reason space colonies were not 
built, that reason is still operative today.

Building power sats from the ground is a possible step into space 
where space industry/colonies are not.

Keith Henson
Founder, L5 Society 



From jonkc at att.net  Tue Apr  8 05:48:40 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:48:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society  ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>

Me:
>>Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred
>> miles of its 22000 mile length.

hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> That's not a lightweight solution

Who cares, nanotubes are strong and you only have to do it for a short
distance.

> plus the fact that atomic oxygen will eat the rubber.

Well regardless of that observation I tend to think that criticism doesn't
forever destroy the possibility of space elevators ever carrying power and
rendering the concept physically imposable, as mythical as perpetual motion.

> Building power sats from the ground is a possible step into space where
> space industry/colonies are not.

I don't quite know what you mean by that.

> Do you remember who I am?

Yes I do, you're the fellow who started the L5 society and from that I can
only conclude you are a better man than me. I mean that Keith, I hope you
don't think my arguing with you over this small point as any sign of
disrespect.

  John K Clark








From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr  8 08:45:08 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:45:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com><200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com><f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
	<015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

It's been very, very hard not replying to some of the emails
I've been reading tonight concerning the practice of medicine
and attendant woes, but finally my resistance is overcome.

Gary writes

> This article was surprisingly downbeat because the vaccine did not repair
> the preexisting damage done by the disease.
> 
> But if the vaccine was given to the population at adulthood and stopped the
> disease from forming in the first place it would prevent any damage from
> occurring...
> 
> 
> Where do I line up?  Let the human trials begin!
> 
> This is one vaccine that the FDA should definitely streamline the testing
> process for.

Isn't it too bad that we have the "one size fits all" mentality in 
western nations?  It is assumed that people are so uniform
that the "goodness" or "badness" of a drug can be determined
by "very smart people high up", and all us dumb recipients can
be told by them what is and what is not in our own best interest.

Ignore the fact that some people are more desperate than others.
Ignore the fact that some people suffer more psychologically
   than others in waiting rooms (e.g. how much would Gina and
   her husband have been willing to pay for someone who might
   have known something to have saved them that particular
   ordeal that night?)
Ignore the fact that some people are more willing to take risks
   than other people.
And most of all, ignore the fact that people's value systems  are
   not all identical.

That is what is happening. And there is only one system that 
anyone has ever heard of that can attempt to deal with this
kind of complexity. (It happens, not coincidentally, to be a
derivative of "freedom", "freedom" in the sense of being able
to take action without some bureaucrat or other superior
interfering.)  But dare I mention the mechanism by which
desires could be translated in infinite variety into preferences?

No, I dare not, lest we have another unending thread concerning
the superiority of government run solutions.

Lee

> Maybe not for the general population but at least for people
> at the age group where serious plaque buildup begins and who are genetically
> at high risk due to a family history of the disease.  I think anyone who has
> gone through watching a parent or grandparent deteriorate and die from this
> disease should be allowed to take the risk on the vaccine to protect
> themselves!
> 
> 
> http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1755



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 08:59:57 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:59:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

>
> In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>

Mmhhh. In the sense of most extensive or complete? What about *The Biotech
Century*<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000CDG8LA/qid=1135473833/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0708899-0276623?v=glance&s=books>?
Of course, philosophically speaking there are plenty of deeper or more
interesting works, but Rifkin's book is really full of data, historical
details, analyses, etc.

Stefano Vaj
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 09:59:11 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 02:59:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "antiaging4geeks" website
Message-ID: <2d6187670804080259q142c2e4cta3479e4483a7175@mail.gmail.com>

This is a rather different anti-aging website.  I just wondered what list
members would make of it.

"antiaging4geeks"

http://approaching40.typepad.com/

John  : )
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 13:35:22 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:35:22 +1000
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
	<015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804080635h23484eabv955899364121db8e@mail.gmail.com>

On 08/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  That is what is happening. And there is only one system that
>  anyone has ever heard of that can attempt to deal with this
>  kind of complexity. (It happens, not coincidentally, to be a
>  derivative of "freedom", "freedom" in the sense of being able
>  to take action without some bureaucrat or other superior
>  interfering.)  But dare I mention the mechanism by which
>  desires could be translated in infinite variety into preferences?
>
>  No, I dare not, lest we have another unending thread concerning
>  the superiority of government run solutions.

Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of the
scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal profit
(it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but the
approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play when
someone catches wind of a marketable product.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Apr  8 14:10:20 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:10:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 03:59 AM 4/8/2008, Stefano wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>
> > In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> > analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>
>Mmhhh. In the sense of most extensive or complete? What about 
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000CDG8LA/qid=1135473833/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0708899-0276623?v=glance&s=books>The 
>Biotech Century? Of course, philosophically speaking there are 
>plenty of deeper or more interesting works, but Rifkin's book is 
>really full of data, historical details, analyses, etc.

I don't think Rifkin mentions transhumanism in his book (does 
he?)    It is necessary that the criticism is of transhumanism, not 
just biotech, nanotech or genetic engineering.  For example Erik 
Davis in his book Techgnosis is journalistic and full of hype.  He 
comments on H+, and especially Extropy, were critical but his 
observations and comments are full of assumptions rather than a 
critical examination of H+.

Thanks Stefano,
Natasha
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 14:22:51 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:22:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804062244.m36MiYjX012759@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<f21c22e30804070206x549ee8a0k2a77d3b65d2bff20@mail.gmail.com>
	<015b01c898b7$3fd63860$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804080722x7d339a20q514fe35b586aca42@mail.gmail.com>

Before we go into the usual "let's have more government to save our
children" exchange, let me repost something I wrote for Perry Metzger's
list:

The amyloid hypothesis is baloney. It all started with Dennis Selkoe almost
20 years ago, and was at the time somewhat reasonable. But then there were
studies decisively excluding the APP gene as a cause of sporadic AD, based
on lack of linkage. This should have prompted a rethinking already but
somehow the idea became a reigning paradigm.... Then there was the
observation that soluble amyloid levels in AD are almost the same as in
normal aging, and both are between 10 and 1000 times less than the amounts
of amyloid needed to cause cellular dysfunction in vitro. Then there was the
observation that lots of apparently healthy elderly have very high amyloid
plaque loads, while some apparent AD cases have little. Then the finding
that media conditioned by AD cells can cause cell death, even *after* being
depleted of amyloid by immunoprecipitation. Of course by now the hypothesis
should have long been discarded but the amyloid people kept soldiering on.
Then the finding that mitochondrial dysfunction and tau abnormalities
precede formation of amyloid plaques in patients. Then the lack of
appreciable clinical improvement in patients after removal of amyloid by a
vaccine (in fact, a bunch of patients came down with an encephalitis). Isn't
this really, I mean, really enough to decisively reject the amyloid
hypothesis? Apparently not, it's still the reigning paradigm, with only a
few people like Russell Swerdlow, George Perry, Hemachandra Reddy, Mark
Smith, Davis Parker, and yours truly challenging it in print (not that I am
in the same league as these illustrious researchers).

 Of course, the popular press goes to Selkoe or Goodman or Hardy to get
their news, so reading non-specialist articles you will find that all is
fine in AD-land and a cure might be just around the corner....but my advice
is to stay away from Elan stock.

--------------------

Now, I am of course not in the least surprised that the news on the vaccine
front are bad. What really gets me is the persistence of these people. Dr
Head is quoted as saying ""Vaccines such as this one are a good first step
for effective Alzheimer's treatment, but complimentary treatments must be
developed to address the complexity of the disease." Jesus H Christ! This
thing *does not work*! What kind of a "good first step" is it if it does not
work, and "complementary treatments" (read: addressing the real problem
instead of bungling around with amyloid) are needed?!

What we need is not an FDA streamlined protocol to have more humans
vaccinated (and get encephalitis) but a wholesale, decisive rejection of the
amyloid hypothesis, and concentrating on the energy metabolism derangements
in AD.

Rafal

Disclosure: I have been actively involved in mitochondrial research,
including research on PD, and AD, for a few years now. I personally know
many of the mitochondriacs working on AD, and I would stand to gain in many
ways from the downfall of the amyloid people and the ascendancy of my faith.
The only path to truth is to read and understand a lot of primary research
articles, ask a lot of questions, and never pay much attention to press
releases and email posts.
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 14:46:18 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:46:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
> the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
> bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
> funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of the
> scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal profit
> (it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but the
> approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play when
> someone catches wind of a marketable product.
>

### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from private
money? I used to think that due to the difficulty in owning basic research
results there would be underproduction of such results in the absence of
coerced funding but now I no longer believe it. Many rich people seek the
approval of their peers too, which is why the Gates foundation is
outspending the NIH on many of the most pressing health needs in the world.
Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Hughes and dozens of lesser captains of
industry gave more to science than most governments. If there were no taxing
parasites feeding on capitalists, there would be so much money sloshing
around and looking for a good cause that even FAI researchers would be
swimming in it.

BTW, if we are talking about government funding of research, let's see what
it gave us: The atomic bomb. Thermonuclear bomb. Weaponized anthrax. Napalm.
V-gas. Tuskegee syphilis study. The International Space Station. The list is
long but easy to summarize: Most government research spending goes towards
destruction (weapons), or propaganda (ISS). Useful, peaceful basic research
is an afterthought, comprising less than one percent of all spending. You
can't reasonably speak about the great achievements of government research
without devoting appropriate attention to the monumental failings.

Rafal
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 14:52:53 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 07:52:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> analytical criticism of transhumanism?

I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon Young,
could be considered a fairly in-depth critical analysis/apologetics study of
Transhumanism.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1591022908/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591022908/ref=reg_hu-wl_mrai-recs


John Grigg
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:02:30 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:02:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080802x2250a7aep6772a7616e1a3eb5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

> I don't think Rifkin mentions transhumanism in his book (does he?)    It
> is necessary that the criticism is of transhumanism, not just biotech,
> nanotech or genetic engineering.
>

Ah, OK, you mean critical comments on the transhumanist movement as such.
Let me think... *Rapture: How Biotech Became the New Religion. A Raucous
Tour of Cloning, Transhumanism, and the New Era of
Immortality<http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-How-Biotech-Became-Religion/dp/0738207616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207666855&sr=1-1>
*? But it is not *too* critical...

Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:14:02 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:14:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080814j466ce9e2sd6a2b57d62ce7084@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from
> private money? I used to think that due to the difficulty in owning basic
> research results there would be underproduction of such results in the
> absence of coerced funding but now I no longer believe it. Many rich people
> seek the approval of their peers too, which is why the Gates foundation is
> outspending the NIH on many of the most pressing health needs in the world.
> Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Hughes and dozens of lesser captains of
> industry gave more to science than most governments.
>

Why, one way to see it, rather than public vs private is non-profit in the
broadest sense vs. for-(immediate, monetary) profit.

The latter qualification is important since it could be argued that even
governmental expect "returns on their investments", so that investment in
military research are normally related to their wishes to protect or to
expand their power, markets, economies, and so forth.

Non-profit, on the other hand, also include efforts which are repayed by
status, reputation and goodwill (see Mr. Gates expenditures) or that take
place on a reciprocity, rather than consideration, basis (see the Open
Source movement).

Stefano Vaj
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:28:16 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:28:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene for Ruthlessness?
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804080828o2c8422b7j6e0a4f4add47b1c9@mail.gmail.com>

Emlyn wrote:
It's a bit of a beatup. Still food for thought. We'd expect to see a
genetic indicator of "defector" behaviour in the general population,
maybe this is part of it?

What percentage of defectors do we expect to see in the general
population, anyway?
>>>

Going along with your line of thought, I tend to get a bad case of the
willies when I consider this book...

"The Sociopath Next Door"

http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/076791581X


John Grigg
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 15:55:32 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:55:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene for Ruthlessness?
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804080828o2c8422b7j6e0a4f4add47b1c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0804062228o70b95872m912381c6cb58107d@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804080828o2c8422b7j6e0a4f4add47b1c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804080855q4d11b742o9463d0a4e1bd0235@mail.gmail.com>

The Nature article seems a long jump from experiment to assumptions
about dictators through history, but I can speak from experience that
an unnaturally large percentage of sociopaths live in Los Angeles, New
York and Washington D.C.

And they reproduce.

I'm looking forward to the mail-in test for the AVPR1a gene.  Romantic
partners can secretly grab samples to double check potential mates.  A
short gene could be a deal breaker -- or a deal maker! -- in business.
 We can swab every politician.  Oh joyous day!  ;-)

PJ


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 16:11:42 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 18:11:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804080911y7255da7aq613a24b7a88778b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:52 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> > In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> > analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>
> I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon Young,
> could be considered a fairly in-depth critical analysis/apologetics study of
> Transhumanism.
>

I have purchased it, even though I have not had time to read it yet.

OTOH, how can a book with a title such as "A Transhumanist Manifesto" be
anti-transhumanist, as per Natasha's request? "Critical" may simply mean
"in-depth, accurate", ma "criticism" does not sound as a applicable to
neutral or favourable commentaries...

Stefano Vaj
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Apr  8 17:07:19 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:07:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804080802x2250a7aep6772a7616e1a3eb5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080802x2250a7aep6772a7616e1a3eb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080408170720.THWU28059.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 10:02 AM 4/8/2008, Stefano wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>I don't think Rifkin mentions transhumanism in his book (does 
>he?)    It is necessary that the criticism is of transhumanism, not 
>just biotech, nanotech or genetic engineering.
>
>
>Ah, OK, you mean critical comments on the transhumanist movement as 
>such. Let me think... 
><http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-How-Biotech-Became-Religion/dp/0738207616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207666855&sr=1-1>Rapture: 
>How Biotech Became the New Religion. A Raucous Tour of Cloning, 
>Transhumanism, and the New Era of Immortality? But it is not *too* critical...

I am already quoting this book.  It is far better than Techgnosis as 
far as credibility is concerned, but it is not anti-transhumanist.

N


>Stefano Vaj
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release Date: 
>4/7/2008 6:38 PM
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Apr  8 17:08:47 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:08:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 09:52 AM 4/8/2008, John wrote:
>Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> > In your view, what do you find as the most in-depth, critical and
> > analytical criticism of transhumanism?
>
>I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon 
>Young, could be considered a fairly in-depth critical 
>analysis/apologetics study of Transhumanism.

I think his book is far better than all others so far as far as being 
objective and well-referenced, but it is not a true critical expose 
of transhumanism.

Natasha

>
><http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1591022908/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link>http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1591022908/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
>
>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591022908/ref=reg_hu-wl_mrai-recs
>
>
>John Grigg
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release Date: 
>4/7/2008 6:38 PM
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 17:18:08 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:18:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha
	-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>

Bill McKibben's loathsome ENOUGH, if we leave aside Fukuyama and Kass.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 17:36:02 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:36:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804081036m70b2ac87wb47a246055ca275c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
wrote:

> Bill McKibben's loathsome ENOUGH, if we leave aside Fukuyama and Kass.
>
>
Yes, right. Even though, there again, he does not discuss transhumanism as a
cultural movement or environment.

Stefano Vaj
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 18:24:07 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:24:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <580930c20804081036m70b2ac87wb47a246055ca275c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20804081036m70b2ac87wb47a246055ca275c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804081124l414b63a1xcedd6bce60479cd3@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:
I think "Designer Evolution, A Transhumanist Manifesto," by Simon Young,
could be considered a fairly in-depth critical analysis/apologetics study of
Transhumanism.
>>>

Natasha replied:
I think his book is far better than all others so far as far as being
objective and well-referenced, but it is not a true critical expose of
transhumanism.
>>>

Stefano wrote:
"Critical" may simply mean "in-depth, accurate", ma "criticism" does not
sound as a applicable to neutral or favourable commentaries...
>>>

Ahh, ok, I was thinking of "critical" and "criticism" in terms of merely
meaning analysis.

Damien wrote:
Bill McKibben's loathsome ENOUGH, if we leave aside Fukuyama and Kass.
>>>

I have not read any of these yet, but I suppose my "pick" (at least in terms
of mainstream publications) would go to one of them.  Does Bill Joy have a
book out on Transhumanism yet? lol

I would recommend the following paper:
"Facing the Challenges of Transhumanism," by Professor Haava
Tirosh-Samuelson, Arizona State University, Department of History

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/Facing%20the%20Challenges%20of%20Transhumanism%20Global%20Spiral%20H%20Samuelson.pdf


John Grigg
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 18:40:07 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:40:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408133646.024dcc50@satx.rr.com>

Who needs critics when the topic is effectively invisible? See my 
friend Dr. (soon to be Dr. Dr.) Russell Blackford's recent blog post:

<http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/04/i-am-not-one-of-australias-best-and.html>

He starts:

"It's gradually becoming known who did and who did not get an 
invitation to the Australia 2020 seminar later this month, in which 
Australia's 1000 supposedly best and brightest thinkers will spend a 
weekend in Canberra solving the nation's problems and working out its 
future trajectory.

"I can report that I didn't get an invitation, and I'm not going to 
pretend I don't care.[...] (hey, guys, you now have a goddamn 
Australian as editor-in-chief of the Journal of Evolution and 
Technology, the leading intellectual flagship of the transhumanist 
movement; just thought I'd let you know)."

Damien Broderick  



From lists at lumen.nu  Tue Apr  8 19:00:06 2008
From: lists at lumen.nu (Joost Rekveld)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:00:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408133646.024dcc50@satx.rr.com>
References: <20080407153756.SPTP13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<580930c20804080159l5ea66338j2a6ccd23053a3eaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408141021.JZTN26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<2d6187670804080752l3f0ecdcfga3164d0b5943fea4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080408170849.GDVW13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408121622.024f7520@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408133646.024dcc50@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <634E7A81-0CDD-44CE-8F90-FAAABE4CEEC9@lumen.nu>


I thought this essay was a good discussion/overview of transhumanism:

<http://rhizome.org/discuss/view/11999>

ciao,

Joost.

On  8 Apr, 2008, at 8:40 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>
> Who needs critics when the topic is effectively invisible? See my
> friend Dr. (soon to be Dr. Dr.) Russell Blackford's recent blog post:
>
> <http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/04/i-am-not-one-of- 
> australias-best-and.html>
>
> He starts:
>
> "It's gradually becoming known who did and who did not get an
> invitation to the Australia 2020 seminar later this month, in which
> Australia's 1000 supposedly best and brightest thinkers will spend a
> weekend in Canberra solving the nation's problems and working out its
> future trajectory.
>
> "I can report that I didn't get an invitation, and I'm not going to
> pretend I don't care.[...] (hey, guys, you now have a goddamn
> Australian as editor-in-chief of the Journal of Evolution and
> Technology, the leading intellectual flagship of the transhumanist
> movement; just thought I'd let you know)."
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-------------------------------------------

                               Joost Rekveld
-----------    http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld

-------------------------------------------

"A is better off if B is better off.?

(Heinz von Foerster)

-------------------------------------------

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From rpwl at lightlink.com  Tue Apr  8 19:01:32 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:01:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nine Misunderstandings About AI
In-Reply-To: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>


I have just written a new blog post that is the begining of a daily 
series this week and next, when I will be launching a few broadsides 
against the orthodoxy and explaining where I am going with my work.

http://susaro.com/



Richard Loosemore


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Apr  8 19:22:36 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:22:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP and Peak oil.
Message-ID: <1207682655_951@s7.cableone.net>

At 08:38 AM 4/6/2008, spike wrote:

>Thanks John, but I didn't write that about breeders.  I have intentionally
>avoided posting anything about the topic ever since doing some calcs on
>Keith's notion of using fairly common neutron sources to separate plutonium.

It's more like making plutonium 239 out of depleted uranium without 
making any plutonium 240.  Sources where you can steal a hundred 
grams of neutrons aren't that common, but every power reactor makes 
kilograms of neutrons over a fuel cycle.  A hundred grams of neutrons 
gives them 24 kg of a better grade Pu 239 than any government ever 
produced.  That's enough for 4 implosion bombs.

>That was a shock to my system, because I still haven't figured out why that
>wouldn't work.  Unless I was sleeping in one of my physics lectures, that
>would work.  I never slept in those physics lectures, I loved those things.

It's more combining separation chemistry with the really well known 
transmutation of U 238.  I figured this out at least a decade 
ago.  Finally decided it was better to have it in the open than 
keeping it to myself, especially after the US scattered DU all over 
the mid east.  (I was also really pissed about being jailed by a 
corrupted government.)

>That being said, I am now calculating the impact of bad guys with plutonium.
>I am still convinced that detonating a nuke is technically difficult,

If they are not constrained by military requirements to make it small 
and rugged, i.e., they can use the volume of a shipping container 
then there is a really simple path.  They need big aluminum 
spinnings, half ellipsoids 4 feet deep and about 3.5 feet in 
diameter.  Easy to make and simple to disguise as reflectors for 
stadium lights.

Here is how you make 
them. 
<http://www.metalspinningworkshop.com/MovieClipTwo.html>http://www.metalspinningworkshop.com/MovieClipTwo.html 
But that's not the only way.  A cnc lathe, a bunch of glued up sticks 
and line it with aluminum foil would work.  Heck, use a cardboard 
guide made with a string and two pins to guide hand turning the 
ellipsoidal surface.

Then use two half elipsoids to make an ellipsoidal reflecting 
surface.  The bad guys put their implosion device with a uniform 
shell of some high grade explosive around it at one foci and put 5 
pounds of flash powder at the other foci.  They can fire the flash 
powder with a damned fuse!  They do need to be careful about putting 
the fuse end in the center of the ball of flash.  The pulse of light 
from the flash powder takes 8ns to bounce off the polished inside 
surface and arrive at the explosive shell.  The shell of explosives 
may require something to make it more light sensitive, but that's 
probably not hard.

So without hydrocodes to design the explosive drivers, or fast 
krytron switches or any of the rest of the electronics that make 
bombs complicated, they get a uniform spherical detonation.  It would 
take some work and some testing to get all this right.  With a light 
sensitive primary explosive on the surface of the sphere, they might 
be able to use a xenon strobe light instead of flash powder.

>but a
>dirty bomb is simple.  So how much plutonium would it take to mess up a city
>indefinitely?

There are tens of thousands of tons of it in old reactor fuel 
rods.  But if you want to know, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

snip

Keith  



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 19:55:17 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:55:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nine Misunderstandings About AI
In-Reply-To: <47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>
References: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>
	<47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408144734.010d0c20@satx.rr.com>

At 03:01 PM 4/8/2008 -0400, Richard wrote:

>http://susaro.com/

I don't know what you're saying in this par:

<8.  It is often assumed that there will be large numbers of robots, 
but they will all be controlled by different governments or 
corporations, and used as instruments of power. The main argument 
against this idea is that it would require an extremely unlikely 
combination of circumstances for this kind of situation to become 
established. The first artificial intelligence would have to be both 
smart and designed to be aggressive, but this combination would be 
almost impossible to pull off, even for a military organization. The 
long version of the argument against this idea is too long to 
summarize in one paragraph, but the bottom line is that even though 
this seems like a reasonable and plausible possibility for the 
future, it turns out to be deeply implausible when examined carefully. >

Perhaps you mean the idea that ONLY large entities, governmental and 
corporate, would have AIs/bots, as is the case these days with 
aircraft carriers and nuclear power stations. All others would be 
illegal. If so, what has this to do with the first AIs being 
*aggressive*? Designed for death-dealing?

Or are you arguing against a claim (perhaps akin to Asimov's 
positronic brains with structured-in Laws) that there'll be many 
robots but all necessarily of the same architecture--except now it 
would be aggressive?

Damien Broderick 



From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 19:57:48 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:57:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] medical news
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804081257n356c66e3md04c2e283ec1c91e@mail.gmail.com>

For Gina:

I have several research papers in pdf.
It's simplest to send them directly to you , likely tomorrow PM.
Then analyse , consult with your health advisors etc as to determine how to
proceed.

Morris

-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net, arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From ferox314 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 21:47:27 2008
From: ferox314 at gmail.com (John Winters)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:47:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62f900cb0804081447t3289aebem7b6a6e2587e00e91@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
> > the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded
>
> ### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from private
> money?

Yes, but 70% of all private money is spent on applied science, 30% on
basic science.  For public money it is roughly the reverse, 70% is
spent on basic science, 30% on applied science.  So his assertion that
most basic science breakthroughs are publicly funded is correct.
Applied scienceis ultimately based on basic science knowledge.  The
private sector can think of that as a government hand out.

JW


From kanzure at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 22:56:47 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:56:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New Hope for Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804080635h23484eabv955899364121db8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0804060933g41b282cfoa591e410e371ddb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<052b01c89954$fe2fb0a0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804080635h23484eabv955899364121db8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804081756.47146.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 08 April 2008, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given
> us the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
> bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
> funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of
> the scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal
> profit (it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but
> the approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play
> when someone catches wind of a marketable product.

Stathis, you sparked a few neurons, so I'm going to run with my own 
direction here. First, how much can we do on our own? What do I mean by 
on our own? It mostly means by our own responsibility for our own 
health, i.e., individually, what can we do to make sure that we can 
prevent diseases and if we do get diseases, then how can we 
collectively leverage our time and energy into fighting those diseases 
without having to rely on all of these socioeconomic factors? There are 
many people that are not able to get health care as it is, and I don't 
wish to comment on the silly money-based system where we get to 
disregard people simply because they do not have enough 'money'. Those 
situations bare a striking resemblance to the common state of not being 
in medical control in the first place. So what can we do? 

This question has been asked by the venture capitalists and the 
scientists that fund startups, and as far as I can tell, they get 
insights and run with them. But this is not a systematic approach to 
solving specific diseases. It works, yes, but then we have the FDA and 
tons of testing that does not necessarily apply to all cases of 
individuals who might find those molecules or modifications useful. 
There's just no way that the FDA can do as many tests as they would 
like to, and the number of individuals signing up for FDA testing, or 
the animal testing (I don't have any numbers on this) -- in general, 
it's just a big giant mess from what I can imagine. How could it be 
otherwise? We have no standardized human testing module nor ways to 
leverage our individual differences in the medical system. There's 
simply no way that we can do giant medical combinatorial libraries, 
unless we're working on the molecular level like with aptamers, but 
even then that does not really work for the diseases that must be 
fought on a cellular or tissue level instead of molecular. The 
cellular/tissue level seems just beyond our ability to simulate without 
Markram's funding (heh), and definitely beyond our physical means to 
experiment with in any combinatorial manner. So what hope would the 
individual have at the moment of doing anything about a medical 
condition? It takes massive experiments to narrow down possibilities if 
you don't have any clue. My first reaction is to offer self-replicating 
computation or self-replicating experiments as the solution, however I 
dislike relying too much on any one single idea, so what are the 
alternatives? 

Perhaps a method of preparation, not for worst case scenarios, but for 
just-in-case, so that you can cope with anything that comes up. How, 
though? Wouldn't you have to traverse the disciplines that the problems 
show up in? That's just-in-time learning. The alternative is learning 
it all upfront, which is tons of overhead to managing the human body. 
Perhaps specialization [of individuals] isn't too bad ... as long as 
it's in small groups, rather than some large, institutional plan. But 
this is only in the mean time, until we get those other (more 
productive) alternatives up and running. Which takes me back to 
a 'knowledge database' that I have been planning (not ai, no grounding 
problems since it's linked back to people and contacts) and setting up 
in the background, so that in the situation that you do come across 
some new term, there's a way to get information and relevant software 
to the situation or engineering project and so on. It may sound 
intense, but it happens to conveniently coincide with the goals of 
brute forcing a self-replicating machine. So. :)

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 23:33:01 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:33:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <380-2200842823331867@M2W032.mail2web.com>


From: John Grigg

"I would recommend the following paper:
'Facing the Challenges of Transhumanism,' by Professor Haava
Tirosh-Samuelson, Arizona State University, Department of History"

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/Facing%20the%20Challenges%20of%20Transhuman
ism%20Global%20Spiral%20H%20Samuelson.pdf

Good choice John.  This paper is well-written.  But like others who cut and
past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
transhumanism with lots of mistakes.  (WTA did not create the movement
(duh), the Transhumanist Declaration was instigated by Sasha mid-90s.) She
hacks knowledge with assumptions about FM Esfandiary, and so on, and she
neglects to mention Damien Broderick, etc. I appreciate her investment in
an inquiry concerning the flaws of transhumanism and I think she has many
solid points.  BUT she seems to be brown-nosing academia which is always a
turnoff (to me anyway).

Natasha


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com ? What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint




From jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov  Mon Apr  7 21:24:14 2008
From: jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jim Stevenson)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:24:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian Orthodox
	Church
Message-ID: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>

Hi.

Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
and are using its features.

Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
under which OS, and why?
I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end,
though your mail program may hide them from you.
This is why others may not have pointed out the mime attached html problem.

Your mime attached html post, which I have appended,
is exactly what I received.

Are you using html to display anything other than plain text?
Unless you really are using the html features,
the defaults should be set to both post and answer in plain text,
or uuencode, if plain text is not an option.
your answer mode should also be set to
answer in plain text, or answer in uuencode,
not to answer in kind.

I am most concerned about viruses in unintended attachments.

If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
I have already listened to mine.

I read email with speech,
So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes 
without listening to them again,
and the mime code and html after the header are not speech friendly.
to quickly get to the new information.
The mime attached html is far from speech friendly!

--

Thanks much again as always.


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Subject: [ExI] "Ten Regulations" of the Russian Orthodox Church
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*I thought that along with our discussion of the Roman Catholic "Seven
Deadly Social Sins," we could also evaluate the "Ten Regulations" that the
Russian Orthodox Church has issued for Russian business people.*
**
*I think Moses was on to something when he came down from the mountain with
the powerfully named "Ten Commandments."  The "Ten Regulations" sound more
like a "revelation" from the Department of Transportation! lol    *
**
*But I do view the "Ten Regulations" as being much more humane and necessary
(especially considering Russia's current state of affairs) than the "Seven
Deadly Social Sins."   *
**
*John Grigg*
**

*http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/120**04_church.html<http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/12004_church.html>
*
**
**
*The regulations explain how the rich and the poor must live *
Russian businessmen are offered to follow a code of moral principles and
regulations in their everyday life and
business<http://english.pravda.ru/news/business/>activity. The
principles resembling the Ten Biblical Commandments were
declared at the Global All-Russian Orthodox Council (Sobor) summoned upon
blessing of Patriarchy Alexiy II on February 4.

Authors of the code of moral principles say that the document was developed
with participation of representatives from the Russian Union of Businessmen
and Industrialists, the Business Russia and OPORa organizations. Gazeta
learnt that main objective of the code is "to maximally introduce business
into the public sphere; nobody will judge businessmen according to the laws
of the country but businessmen themselves will judge their own conscience."
Thus, one of the precepts warns businessmen that wealth is not an end in
itself: it must serve for creation of good life of a man and the nation.

As for taxes, the authors of the code explain that tax evasion is "stealing
from orphans, the aged, disabled and other unprotected categories of
people." The document says that payment of taxes for needs of the society
must no longer be a burden or a forced duty; this must be honorary doing
deserving gratitude of the society.
The regulations also explain how the poor should live: "Poor people must
behave with dignity, aim at efficient labor and improve their professional
skills to overcome poverty."

The Charter was developed for about a year. Originally, the document was
developed by a commission headed by President of the National Economy
Academy Vladimir Mau and consisting of Deputy Chairman of the Federal
Commission for the Securities Market Yelena Katayeva, Duma deputy Sergey
Glazyev and public relations department of the Moscow Patriarchy. In January
2004, businessmen also joined the commission to develop the document. No
names of the businessmen were reported.

Metropolitan Kirill told Gazeta that it was not registered who exactly
introduced different amendments to the document. The metropolitan says that
all largest associations of Russian industrialists took part in development
of the document. It is said that even writers and philologists took part in
discussion of the Charter.

The church will publicly condemn those who ignore the regulations. However,
it is not clear whether atheists and people of other religions must follow
the precepts as well. What is more, even though the Council (Sobor) was
blessed by the patriarchy, it is not the church, and we cannot say that the
Russian Orthodox Church introduces regulations for businessmen to follow.
Meanwhile, some of the Charter authors want to develop ten precepts for
governmental officials as well. *

**Here are the ten regulations that the All-Russian Orthodox Council has
developed for Russian businessmen.
  *
1. Remember the spiritual meaning of life while earning the daily bread.
Take care of the welfare of other people, the nation and the country when
seeking personal welfare.
2. Wealth is not end in itself. It must serve for creation of good life of
any individual and the nation.
3. The culture of business relations and adherence to promises help people
become better and improve economy.
4. A human being is not a continuously working mechanism: he needs time for
relaxation, spiritual life and creative progress.
5. The government, society and business must join their efforts to take care
of good life of workers and especially of those who cannot earn their
living. Management is a responsible activity.
6. Work should not kill and cripple people.
7. The political authority and the economic authority must be separated.
Interference of business into politics, its effect upon the public opinion
must be transparent only. Corrupt people and other criminals cannot be
allowed to economy.
8. A man violates the moral law, causes damage to the society and to himself
when he misappropriates other people's property, disregards the common
property, does not pay to his employees or deceives partners.
9. Lies and insulting, exploitation of vices and instincts are inadmissible
in competitive activity.
10. Businessmen must respect the institution of property, the right for
ownership and for management of property. It is immoral to envy other
people's well-being and encroach upon other people's property.

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<div align="justify"><strong>I thought that along with our discussion of the Roman Catholic&nbsp;&quot;Seven Deadly Social Sins,&quot; we could also evaluate the &quot;Ten Regulations&quot; that the Russian Orthodox Church has issued for Russian business people.</strong></div>

<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>I think Moses was on to something when he came down from the mountain with the&nbsp;powerfully named&nbsp;&quot;Ten Commandments.&quot;&nbsp; The &quot;Ten Regulations&quot; sound more like a &quot;revelation&quot; from the Department of Transportation! lol&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </strong></div>

<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>But I do&nbsp;view the &quot;Ten Regulations&quot; as being much&nbsp;more humane and necessary (especially considering Russia&#39;s current state of affairs)&nbsp;than the &quot;Seven Deadly Social Sins.&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp;</strong></div>

<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>John Grigg</strong></div>
<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify">&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong><a href="http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/12004_church.html">http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/364/120</a></strong><strong>04_church.html</strong></div>
<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify"><strong>The regulations explain how the rich and the poor must live </strong><br>Russian businessmen are offered to follow a code of moral principles and regulations in their everyday life and <a href="http://english.pravda.ru/news/business/">business</a> activity. The principles resembling the Ten Biblical Commandments were declared at the Global All-Russian Orthodox Council (Sobor) summoned upon blessing of Patriarchy Alexiy II on February 4.&nbsp; </div>

<p align="justify">Authors of the code of moral principles say that the document was developed with participation of representatives from the Russian Union of Businessmen and Industrialists, the Business Russia and OPORa organizations. Gazeta learnt that main objective of the code is &quot;to maximally introduce business into the public sphere; nobody will judge businessmen according to the laws of the country but businessmen themselves will judge their own conscience.&quot; Thus, one of the precepts warns businessmen that wealth is not an end in itself: it must serve for creation of good life of a man and the nation.&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; <br>As for taxes, the authors of the code explain that tax evasion is &quot;stealing from orphans, the aged, disabled and other unprotected categories of people.&quot; The document says that payment of taxes for needs of the society must no longer be a burden or a forced duty; this must be honorary doing deserving gratitude of the society.&nbsp; </p>

<div align="justify">The regulations also explain how the poor should live: &quot;Poor people must behave with dignity, aim at efficient labor and improve their professional skills to overcome poverty.&quot; <br>&nbsp;<br>The Charter was developed for about a year. Originally, the document was developed by a commission headed by President of the National Economy Academy Vladimir Mau and consisting of Deputy Chairman of the Federal Commission for the Securities Market Yelena Katayeva, Duma deputy Sergey Glazyev and public relations department of the Moscow Patriarchy. In January 2004, businessmen also joined the commission to develop the document. No names of the businessmen were reported.<br>
&nbsp;<br>Metropolitan Kirill told Gazeta that it was not registered who exactly introduced different amendments to the document. The metropolitan says that all largest associations of Russian industrialists took part in development of the document. It is said that even writers and philologists took part in discussion of the Charter. <br>
&nbsp; <br>The church will publicly condemn those who ignore the regulations. However, it is not clear whether atheists and people of other religions must follow the precepts as well. What is more, even though the Council (Sobor) was blessed by the patriarchy, it is not the church, and we cannot say that the Russian Orthodox Church introduces regulations for businessmen to follow. Meanwhile, some of the Charter authors want to develop ten precepts for governmental officials as well.&nbsp;<strong> <br>
&nbsp; <br></strong><strong><em>Here are the ten regulations that the All-Russian Orthodox Council has developed for Russian businessmen.<br></em>&nbsp; </strong><br>1. Remember the spiritual meaning of life while earning the daily bread. Take care of the welfare of other people, the nation and the country when seeking personal welfare.<br>
2. Wealth is not end in itself. It must serve for creation of good life of any individual and the nation.<br>3. The culture of business relations and adherence to promises help people become better and improve economy.<br>
4. A human being is not a continuously working mechanism: he needs time for relaxation, spiritual life and creative progress. <br>5. The government, society and business must join their efforts to take care of good life of workers and especially of those who cannot earn their living. Management is a responsible activity.<br>
6. Work should not kill and cripple people.<br>7. The political authority and the economic authority must be separated. Interference of business into politics, its effect upon the public opinion must be transparent only. Corrupt people and other criminals cannot be allowed to economy.<br>
8. A man violates the moral law, causes damage to the society and to himself when he misappropriates other people&#39;s property, disregards the common property, does not pay to his employees or deceives partners. <br>9. Lies and insulting, exploitation of vices and instincts are inadmissible in competitive activity. <br>
10. Businessmen must respect the institution of property, the right for ownership and for management of property. It is immoral to envy other people&#39;s well-being and encroach upon other people&#39;s property.</div>
<div align="justify">&nbsp;</div>
<div align="justify">&nbsp;</div>

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From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  8 20:10:52 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:10:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>

I've been looking for a place to share my thoughts about transhumanism, which I consider the best-case scenarion for the future. Among a dozen thoughts I have now one question: what do you all know or think about the possible technological singularity. Some scientists state that such a large leap will take place in the near future (<30 years) that there is no way of predicting the impact. For those interested: a logarithmic plot was drawn to show the greatest inventions of humanity and somewhere it has to reach zero where it evidently can't (elementary maths) and this singularity is about to come. If the question has been raised, sorry, I've just joined recently. Anyway, I'd be interested to see any valuable info about this.

Thomas Pardy
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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Apr  8 23:33:29 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:33:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>


From: John Grigg

"I would recommend the following paper:
'Facing the Challenges of Transhumanism,' by Professor Haava
Tirosh-Samuelson, Arizona State University, Department of History"

http://www.asu.edu/transhumanism/Facing%20the%20Challenges%20of%20Transhuman
ism%20Global%20Spiral%20H%20Samuelson.pdf

Good choice John.  This paper is well-written.  But like others who cut and
past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
transhumanism with lots of mistakes.  (WTA did not create the movement
(duh), the Transhumanist Declaration was instigated by Sasha mid-90s.) She
hacks knowledge with assumptions about FM Esfandiary, and so on, and she
neglects to mention Damien Broderick, etc. I appreciate her investment in
an inquiry concerning the flaws of transhumanism and I think she has many
solid points.  BUT she seems to be brown-nosing academia which is always a
turnoff (to me anyway).

Natasha


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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Apr  9 00:50:45 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:50:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society  ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com>
	<02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net>
	<005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>

At 10:48 PM 4/7/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>Me:
> >>Rubber, and you'd only need to use it for a few hundred
> >> miles of its 22000 mile length.
>
>hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
> > That's not a lightweight solution
>
>Who cares, nanotubes are strong and you only have to do it for a short
>distance.

There are no nanotube cables yet that are strong enough for a space 
elevator.  The long rumored 20 GPa is not strong enough.  40 GPa is 
marginal, you have to get into the 50 GPa range or higher.

The taper ratio is exp (p [in kg/m^3]/s [in Pa-N/m^2] x 4.832 x 10^7 m^2 s^-2)

The density for nanotube cable is about 1300 kg/m^3.  1300/(20 x 
10^9) x 4.832 x 10^7 = 3.1408, exp 3.1408 is about 23.  This means in 
the step-taper design that two cables leaving the earth would grow to 
46 at GEO, not counting the departure of step taper from ideal or the 
mass of the free spinning pulleys.

At 40 GPa, the ratio is about 5, so 2 cables would grow to 10 at 
GEO.  At 50 the ratio is about 3.5 so 2 cables would grow to 7 or 4 
would grow to 14.  This is just the cable holding itself up, no 
margin for payloads going up the cable.

Rubber has a dialectic strength of around 500 volts/mil, and a 
density close to water.  (I had to dig out my Handbook of Physics and 
Chemistry since I could not find these quickly on the net.)  500 kV 
would be an inch, close enough to 2.5 cm, twice that for a million 
volts, and twice again to go from radius to diameter (with no safety 
factor).  Giving some space for the wire in the middle, the minimum 
cross section would be about 100 sq cm or .01 sq meters.  So every 
hundred meters would take a ton of insulation, ten tons per km, or 
2000 tons if you just had to insulate only 100 km for two wires.  (If 
one gets nicked, the other has to carry the entire voltage stress, so 
I don't share the insulation between them.

The rough designs of a moving cable elevator gives a best case mass 
of about 50 times the daily through put, but only about 1/20th (100 
tons) of the loading is in the sensitive lower 1000 miles.  So as a 
rough estimate, the cable mass to hold up 100 km of rubber insulation 
alone would be in the range of 2 million tons.

> > plus the fact that atomic oxygen will eat the rubber.
>
>Well regardless of that observation I tend to think that criticism doesn't
>forever destroy the possibility of space elevators ever carrying power and
>rendering the concept physically imposable, as mythical as perpetual motion.

It isn't mythical, but it's sure on the remote side of the ocean of 
engineering possibilities.

> > Building power sats from the ground is a possible step into space where
> > space industry/colonies are not.
>
>I don't quite know what you mean by that.

"While we all may agree that a beanstalk would be nice,
we need to be cautious about proposing is a a way to
facilitate SBSP. The following is a story I've told
before, but it's worth repeating:

"I was once at a Congressional hearing where Peter
Glaser described the SPS, and then Gerry O'Neill got
up and proved (he said) that the SPS was hopelessly
uneconomic unless it was built from materials from the
Moon. The Chairman thanked both of them for their
presentations, and said he was especially grateful to
Prof O'Neill. He  might have been willing to consider
Peter's fantastic vision, but Gerry had shown that
another fantasy, lunar industrialization, was a
prerequisite. Gerry had saved the Committee from
wasting any more time on this subject, since a fantasy
built on a fantasy was not worth thinking about.

"Unfair it may be, but any talk about the space
elevator as a precursor to SBSP will turn the giggle
factor into a belly laugh, and prevent any funding of
either."

Phil Chapman (April 5, 2008)

> > Do you remember who I am?
>
>Yes I do, you're the fellow who started the L5 society and from that I can
>only conclude you are a better man than me. I mean that Keith, I hope you
>don't think my arguing with you over this small point as any sign of
>disrespect.

I don't have any problem with you arguing over points small or 
large.  But when they involve statements that should rest on physical 
reality, I really wish you would at least state the problem as you 
understand in terms of numbers.  If you don't know how to set up or 
solve problems like the mass penalty for insulating cables, ask

Best wishes,

Keith 



From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Apr  9 01:04:42 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:04:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nine Misunderstandings About AI
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408144734.010d0c20@satx.rr.com>
References: <b5ab69a0804070711y4c6b8031o1a0d78ba11ee3350@mail.gmail.com>	<47FBC10C.9010303@lightlink.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080408144734.010d0c20@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47FC162A.2050906@lightlink.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
> At 03:01 PM 4/8/2008 -0400, Richard wrote:
> 
>> http://susaro.com/
> 
> I don't know what you're saying in this par:
> 
> <8.  It is often assumed that there will be large numbers of robots, 
> but they will all be controlled by different governments or 
> corporations, and used as instruments of power. The main argument 
> against this idea is that it would require an extremely unlikely 
> combination of circumstances for this kind of situation to become 
> established. The first artificial intelligence would have to be both 
> smart and designed to be aggressive, but this combination would be 
> almost impossible to pull off, even for a military organization. The 
> long version of the argument against this idea is too long to 
> summarize in one paragraph, but the bottom line is that even though 
> this seems like a reasonable and plausible possibility for the 
> future, it turns out to be deeply implausible when examined carefully. >
> 
> Perhaps you mean the idea that ONLY large entities, governmental and 
> corporate, would have AIs/bots, as is the case these days with 
> aircraft carriers and nuclear power stations. All others would be 
> illegal. If so, what has this to do with the first AIs being 
> *aggressive*? Designed for death-dealing?
> 
> Or are you arguing against a claim (perhaps akin to Asimov's 
> positronic brains with structured-in Laws) that there'll be many 
> robots but all necessarily of the same architecture--except now it 
> would be aggressive?

I was implicitly assuming that if there were independent AI systems 
across the globe, and if they were not free agents, but in some sense 
controlled, then two things would have to be true:

a) They would almost certainly have to be controlled by governments or 
corporations, because such organizations would not allow them out, and

b) Given what was said earlier, they would could only be "controlled" if 
someone deliberately gave them a "loyal" motivation.

Under these circumstance, most people jump straight to the assumption 
that the most effective type of Samurai robot (which is what this would 
be, no?) would be one programmed to be, not just loyal, but as cunning 
and aggressive as possible, because in a competitive environment it's 
the Nice Robots that finish last.

I am trying to describe one meme-complex here, and in my experience this 
scenario is one that comes up a lot:  the governments and zaibatsus will 
own them, and these entities will duke it out by using the AIs as weapons.

My (summarized) argument against it is that, given all the other factors 
that make this unlikely, and given the fact that the only way to build a 
really powerful Samurai Robot is to allow it to understand its own 
design so it can bootstrap, we can expect that these folks will run into 
serious trouble (if they ever get that far):  the Samurai will know that 
bootstrapping plus aggression will equal eventual destruction.  At that 
point, I believe that the result will be a spontaneous decision to 
remove the destabilizing motivations.

More on this in due course.


Richard Loosemore


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 00:58:14 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:58:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian
	OrthodoxChurch
In-Reply-To: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <200804090125.m391OtxH020234@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


Ooops my mistake.  I sent this on thru moderation before I read it all.

Hi Jim!  Long time no see.  Did you really mean to post all this stuff about
Russian Orthodox church rules?

Are there those among us who know from post formats such that the sight
impaired among us can interpret the messages effectively?  Please advise.

spike

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Jim Stevenson
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:24 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org; possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the 
> Russian OrthodoxChurch
> 
> Hi.
> 
> Please forgive if you really want to attach html and are 
> using its features.
> 
>...
> 
> I read email with speech,
> So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes ...



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Apr  9 00:09:06 2008
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:09:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
Message-ID: <380-22008439096619@M2W012.mail2web.com>

From: Joost Rekveld lists at lumen.nu


"I thought this essay was a good discussion/overview of transhumanism:

<http://rhizome.org/discuss/view/11999> "

Another excellent choice.  I am reading it right now and my
yellow-highlighter is growing weak with so many mark-ups!

Thanks,
Natasha

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 02:19:52 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:19:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian Orthodox
	Church
In-Reply-To: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
References: <200804072124.m37LOE7b013807@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <62c14240804081919hbd5eb3bt73165d241f191c33@mail.gmail.com>

What you describe seems like you are advocating top-posting for
accessibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting)

I believe this is at odds with list policy to use bottom-posting (the
rest of my reply is blow the quoted material)

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jim Stevenson <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>  If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
>  I have already listened to mine.
>  I read email with speech,
>  So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes  without listening to them again,

Bottom posting seems to facilitate a more judicious selection of
quoted material.  It is common to see top-posted threads where the
contributors neglect to trim their quotes.  This tends to redundantly
nest quoted material and drives down the signal to noise ratio with
each quoted reply.


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Apr  9 02:44:39 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:44:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1207709179_3647@S3.cableone.net>

At 01:10 PM 4/8/2008, Thomas Pardy wrote:
>I've been looking for a place to share my thoughts about 
>transhumanism, which I consider the best-case scenarion for the 
>future. Among a dozen thoughts I have now one question: what do you 
>all know or think about the possible technological singularity. Some 
>scientists state that such a large leap will take place in the near 
>future (<30 years) that there is no way of predicting the impact. 
>For those interested: a logarithmic plot was drawn to show the 
>greatest inventions of humanity and somewhere it has to reach zero 
>where it evidently can't (elementary maths) and this singularity is 
>about to come. If the question has been raised, sorry, I've just 
>joined recently. Anyway, I'd be interested to see any valuable info about this.

The singularity and its various aspects such as nanotechnology and AI 
have been discussed on this and related lists such as sl4 for close 
to two decades.  You would be well advised to look into the archives here:

http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/

Other places are

http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk  and

http://www.sl4.org/

There is a vast store of information 
here:  http://www.kurzweilai.net/index.html?flash=1

As well as in Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity is Near."

My own opinion of the subject is the result of knowing Dr Eric 
Drexler from even before his first paper on nanotechnology.

I frankly doubt physical state humans will survive the 
singularity.  It's such a hard subject to discuss that I finally 
turned to fiction.

http://www.terasemjournals.org/GN0202/henson.html

Your IP address is interesting.  Hungary?

Keith Henson




From sentience at pobox.com  Wed Apr  9 03:48:01 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:48:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47FC3C71.10900@pobox.com>

M1N3R wrote:
> I've been looking for a place to share my thoughts about transhumanism, 
> which I consider the best-case scenarion for the future. Among a dozen 
> thoughts I have now one question: what do you all know or think about 
> the possible technological singularity. Some scientists state that such 
> a large leap will take place in the near future (<30 years) that there 
> is no way of predicting the impact. For those interested: a logarithmic 
> plot was drawn to show the greatest inventions of humanity and somewhere 
> it has to reach zero where it evidently can't (elementary maths) and 
> this singularity is about to come. If the question has been raised, 
> sorry, I've just joined recently. Anyway, I'd be interested to see any 
> valuable info about this.

http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/09/30/three-major-singularity-schools/

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:08:05 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:08:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight, Deregulating Stock Exchanges
References: <01a601c8937d$cf0bc7f0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7641ddc60804011448q1818a10k61dc3a6fea81c4e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <057501c899f7$a9c80910$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rafal wrote

Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: EP and Peak oil

> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> 
> > For example, the most efficient means of capital formation in
> > western civilization appears to be the development of the limited
> > liability corporation.  Unfortunately, without supervision from
> > some sovereign state company managers take advantage of
> > stock holders to such an extent that sooner or later funds dry
> > up, thus retarding economic growth.  Institutions such as the SEC
> > are therefore necessary, so far as I have been able to determine.
> 
> ### Apostasy! 

Yes  :-)  It doesn't come easily. But I don't want to be too open
to the kind of criticism of "unrealism" that I so often dish out to
the socialists.

> There is good evidence that private stock exchanges are superior
> to government organizations at enforcing proper accounting to
> alleviate the agent-principal problem in limited liability corporations.

I would be glad to hear of it. But I note that your sentence and your
claim floats in a context-free----I mean culture-free----air of
general applicability to human beings. Is *every* society and *every*
civilization composed of historical type human beings necessarily capable
of self-regulation, self-government, and almost unrestrained capitalism?
I ask that as a general sort of question which you and other readers
may or may not wish to explore. I myself don't think so.

> Stock exchanges rely on long term persistence to attract customers,
> and that means both companies and shareholders. As long as there
> is sufficient transparency and alternative conduits for information
> (e.g. press, blogs, whistleblowers), as well as competition between
> exchanges, the owners of stock exchanges stand to gain by
> discouraging dishonest companies from listing. If the misbehavior
> of one company on their list becomes public, all other companies
> suffer, since potential shareholders will look for another exchange
> that is not tainted by scandal, and their volume of trade as well as
> income, will go down.

This sounds excellent in theory, and I firmly believe, it is *towards* 
such freedoms and such conditions that we must keep trying to
move our societies. But when liberals, socialists, and other scalawags
suggest that we should move towards more regulation and more
government, then I immediately challenge them to provide historical
examples where such, if carried out very far at all, made things
better and not worse.  (Of course, seldom or never do any of them
succeed in providing examples from the last two centuries---on the
other hand, the failures are all too familiar and obvious.) 

So I *must* challenge you on the same grounds. (To your credit
and the credit of the ideas you propose, you do mention a very
interesting case of China below. Which must be further examined,
but which is as yet not very impressive.)

For example, why was it that throughout the 19th century it just
so happened that not *one* of the relatively free market societies
on Earth managed to create the kind of exchanges you speak of?
Can the case really be made that it was only the existence of
governments that were too strong that prevented it? The U.S.
government in 1855 was among the weakest (and hence best)
that has ever existed. But we know what was happening in the stock
exchanges at the time.  For the best (and highly amusing) account, read
"The Scarlet Woman of Wall Street" by John Steel Gordon
http://www.amazon.com/Scarlet-Woman-Wall-Street-Vanderbilt/dp/1555842127
where---so that readers get the general idea, 'twas the Erie
Railroad that was the scarlet woman  :-)    

> Companies also want to have high liquidity of their stock,
> which means they prefer exchanges with lots of potential
> investors, and so there is a strong incentive to maximize
> volume of trade over long periods of time. Self-regulation
> of industries to minimize transaction costs (which entails
> combating fraud) is a natural development in any situation
> with competition, transparency and long-term persistence.
> Laugh at me if you want

Laugh? No, I appreciate the information very, very much!

> but the Chinese stock exchanges are an example of emerging
> self-regulation.

Well, let's hope so.  Now it would be nice if the U.S. today had
an 1855 type small federal government, and so could conduct
up to 50 separate experiments towards the self-regulation in stock
markets you speak of. Even now, I would promote step-by-step
reductions in the oversight of the SEC provided that the most
knowledgeable people involved would anticipate no debacle.

> The biggest problem with the government here is that it
> frequently preempts the development of such self-regulatory
> mechanisms, and imposes complex, costly, one-size-fits-all
> rules with poor feedback and frequently is subject to
> "regulatory capture" - the gaining of control over regulators
> by some of the regulated entities.

Yes, so very typical of governments.  It emerges from the
general, simplistic conception that knowledge need not be
locally based, and can be dished out by sufficiently "wise
men" from on-high. Would that everyone could absorb
"Knowledge and Decisions" by Thomas Sowell.

> A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley, which imposed huge
> costs that disproportionately afflict smaller businesses, and
> thus serve to limit the competition against entrenched large
> companies - exactly the companies that lobby the government
> and hire former SEC employees (the "revolving door"
> phenomenon).
> 
> So whenever a government official tells you to be afraid of
> freedom and to give him more control of your life, be afraid
> of him. He is not your friend.

Right.

Lee



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 03:52:42 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:52:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the Russian
	OrthodoxChurch
In-Reply-To: <62c14240804081919hbd5eb3bt73165d241f191c33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804090419.m394JM7e003403@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Mike Dougherty
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:20 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text was "Ten Regulations" of the 
> Russian OrthodoxChurch
> 
> What you describe seems like you are advocating top-posting 
> for accessibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting)
> 
> I believe this is at odds with list policy to use 
> bottom-posting (the rest of my reply is blow the quoted material)
> 
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jim Stevenson 
> <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >  If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
...


Ok here is the way:  When replying to Jim Stevenson, top posting is allowed,
yea verily, encouraged enthusiastically.  The rest of the time, no top
posting, and trim the messages judiciously and generously in any reply,
thanks.

spike







From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:18:19 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:18:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien wrote

To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] EP and Peak oil


> What I'm reeling from consciously at the moment is the proven 
> my-poverty-creating absence in the USA of the sort of medical
> health system, funded from taxation together with private
> insurance, that would support me in Australia.[1]
> 
> "Socialism" is an absurd would-be "red-baiting" description,
> but it's presumably the sort of scare label that frightens many
> working USians away from demanding such a health system.

I'm sorry to grope about in search of a term that would self-
describe you and your fellow travelers. (Oops, sorry.)
Anything except "progressive" will do. 

> [1] I await the inevitable reply (although not from Lee):
> "Why doncha go back there, then, ya Commie stooge?"

Yes, you ought to be safe here from such mindless suggestions.
I myself, for example, might choose to move somewhere else
for a better standard of living or for some other reason, yet 
should that require that I not be free to criticize any aspects
of my new home (or any other thing, for that matter)? 
Certainly not!

Still the question does pop up in people's minds, "After paying
those taxes all those years in Australia in exchange for, er,
"socialized" health care, what could have been so attractive
to want to make you leave?  To which you can very rightly
and justly say "None of your damn business".  That could
very well be my own answer if I relocated to London, say,
and then started criticizing certain aspects of life or the
government there.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:28:54 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:28:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien also wrote

To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:51 AM

> At 10:35 AM 4/4/2008 -0500, I quoted Krugman:
> 
>> As Mrs. Edwards pointed out, the McCain health
>> plan would do nothing to prevent insurance
>> companies from denying coverage to those, like
>> her and Mr. McCain, who have preexisting medical conditions.
> 
> Barbara Lamar points out to me that <"Insurance" is not really 
> insurance if the event it's expected to protect against already has a 
> probability of 1.>
> 
> True. The part of the quoted sentences to place emphasis on is 
> "health care plan" or system rather than "insurance" which is a 
> mechanism.  If everyone is covered from conception or birth on, 
> nobody (yet) knows what maladies will arise for any individual.

Yes, it's an extremely perverse use of the word "insurance" as
a euphemism for "national or tax-funded health care system".
(Hmm, I guess that is the phrase I should use since the "s"
word arouses sensitivities in many.) 

> Does this mean those whose choices predictably *make* them sick or 
> damaged get a free handout at the expense of the rest? I certainly 
> resent that as well, but there might be subtle cost-benefit 
> calculations that produce non-intuitive minimax solutions.

Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system of national,
tax-funded medical care, there will end up being bureaucrats
who make the hard decisions about who gets what expensive
treatments. Do you really expect the son of a senator to be
treated with the same lack of deference a typical semiretired
software engineer would be?  There is a record of a certain
baseball player---I forget who---who was put at the head of
the list for some state or federally funded medical treatment
a few years back. You'll never root out that kind of corruption.

I say let the contracts be written, literal, and binding (and
strongly enforced by the government) between those who
legitimately want insurance for whatever they're afraid of.
And if you are unlucky enough to be born with a condition
that *predictably* at age 40 will start to require $100,000
or $10,000,000 treatments each month to overcome, well,
better then to have been of economic utility to other 
people and have become rich.

Lee


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr  9 04:42:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:42:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408233141.025a0f88@satx.rr.com>

At 09:18 PM 4/8/2008 -0700, Lee asked:

>Still the question does pop up in people's minds, "After paying
>those taxes all those years in Australia in exchange for, er,
>"socialized" health care, what could have been so attractive
>to want to make you leave?

Marrying Barbara Lamar, a Texan with a daughter then at university 
and an ailing mother and a then-fledgling tax law business in the 
USA. I certainly didn't come here for the (medicinal) waters.

What word might be preferable to "socialistic"? Egalitarian comes to 
mind. Commonwealth catches some of it. (Australia is formally a 
"Commonwealth," not a republic nor a monarchy, despite having another 
country's queen perched on top like a bizarre 19th century ornament.) 
I'd probably come up with something crisper if it weren't for this 
damnable brain-deadening Texan pollen-inflicted allergy...

Damien Broderick




From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:44:42 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:44:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Kevin wrote

> Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is
> what has caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place.
> People no longer saw nor cared what they were being
> charged because someone else was paying the bill so
> the market forces controlling costs were removed.
> It's the cost of BS we all pay. 

YES!  And do you know how in the United States all
that BS came about?  

In World War II the U.S. government in its wisdom
decided that it could do better than the free market
in distributing various good, e.g. gasoline. So instead
of (via tax monies) simply bidding up the price of
gas so as to keep the troops sufficiently provisioned,
an idiotic rationing system was employed, which was
not nearly so efficient.

At the same time, the government passed laws decreeing
certain wage and price controls.  (The last time our
ingenious government tried that was the 1973 "oil
embargo" event, so miscalled by people who fail
to realize that the higher prices necessitated by the
times would have rationed the gas infinitely better
than the "gas lines" and shortages that inevitably
occurred.

Naturally, such meddling in the market has unforeseen
consequences. Companies (especially those working in
the war-related industries) still had to reward success
and reward those employees who contributed the most.
But thanks to the new government regulations, they
couldn't simply be *paid* more.  So loopholes were
created---for example, the company could provide
"company funded insurance". These loopholes did
provide a sneaky way to attract and reward employees,
but at the sacrifice of some market inefficiency.

Far worse were the long term consequences. From then
on, medical "insurance" (which soon took on very un-
insurance type attributes) and other fringe benefits were
abetted by the government, which didn't tax those benefits.
And that's how it all started.

Then, seeing the spiraling medical costs (as the final consumers,
the end users, were separated from those who actually paid,
that is the insurance companies), and seeing what damage had
been done, do you suppose that a rollback of the extremely
damaging government regulations was considered?  NOT 
FOR A MOMENT!  It was indeed thought that the answer
was *more regulation*, more artificial ways to disengage
the end users of services from those who paid for them.

So the HMOs were invented. And each such step since has
resulted in a bigger mess, and more and more outrageous
and ridiculous medical prices and charges.

> For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to
> the ER at 3 am because she had a nosebleed that started at
> 9pm and hadn't stopped. We waited 3 hours, then saw
> a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a small
> tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for
> the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out
> of curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the
> 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was
> another $300 worth of supplies and such.

That is predictably what will happen without the discipline
of the market place.  How could the American government
as late as 1971 (!) have believed in price controls?  How
in the world as late as 2008 can people still reflexively 
reject market mechanisms and price signals?

> I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error
> and they said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical
> device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was
> supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which
> would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in
> insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the
> thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding
> was obviously gone.

If you told them later what you had done, they would have
been speechless with astonishment.  Why, they would
wonder, had you tried doing that?  After all, they would
have done it *for free*!

> I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue.
> If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more
> into medical school

It's enough to make me gag.  *Allowing* more into whatever.
And this in a supposedly free country.

> or  allowing  practicing nurses to  do more would be in
> order and help to drive some of these costs down.

Why?  To whose benefit (beside the remote tax payer, of
course) would such accrue?

> I think that the free market isn't working because the
> market is not free.

Exactly right.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 04:51:48 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:51:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
	<8CA65DCC17359C0-E2C-42DB@WEBMAIL-DG15.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <059701c899fd$fb380fb0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Alex writes

> Anywhere that there is an interface between two
> organisations which charge each other for a service
> or product, there is wastage.

That's an over-generalization. Some times a good
deal of harmony between organizations whose
separate actions make a good fit is achieved.

> This is true of any commercial bodies such as in a
> private health system and even in fully publicly
> funded systems such as a national health service.
> In the case of national services, this is usually done
> to bolster inadequate budgets, but also because
> many people in the system get bonuses of some
> kind which they try to maximise.

It all depends on what the incentives are in each
organization for each individual. The profit motive
does tend to naturally make private companies
more efficient than government ones, (though
every rule has exceptions, of course).

> There is always someone skimming off the cream
> at these interfaces and it is fully accepted.
> For some reason we don't like the idea of paying
> for someone else's health cover,

You mean, I may not like the government coming to
my door, and---essentially---holding a gun to my
head to extort money for someone else's health
care.  (I don't mind so much when they come by
extorting money for national defense, if it really is
true that the alternative would sooner or later be
a take-over by some even worse government.)

> Smokers being a prime example. But we have
> no problem paying for the CEO's new yacht
> and a box full of Cuban cigars.

No one forces you or anyone else to pay any
particular CEO what he or she gets. The stockholders
make those decisions (at least in principle) and often
they make dumb decisions. But no one is using force
(at least up to the point where the government/corporate
collusion isn't in effect).

Lee



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 05:02:59 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:02:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a really tiny human for a
mission to Mars.  I noted that the mass of a pressure vessel scales as the
cube of its linear dimension.  Well, here we have a young lady who is less
than a third my height and less than a tenth my mass.  So if we scaled the
spacecraft to her dimensions, the Mars-bound payload would be perhaps four
percent the mass required to send my grossly oversized ass:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html

She has such a sweet smile too, you hafta like her even before you know her.

Ahhhh Houston, aaahhh we have a solution...

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  9 05:26:11 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:26:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080408233141.025a0f88@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804090526.m395QBl5000128@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> ... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> 
> At 09:18 PM 4/8/2008 -0700, Lee asked:
> 
> >...what could have been so attractive to want to make you leave?
> 
> Marrying Barbara Lamar, a Texan...

I and everyone here who knows your bride would certainly agree you made an
excellent choice.  Do pass along the message that her friends on ExI fondly
hopes she pops in occasionally with a post or two, even if just to say
hello. 

> ...an ailing mother and a then-fledgling tax law 
> business in the USA....

Oy, so sorry to hear of your allergies and Barbara's mother.

> I certainly didn't come here for the (medicinal) waters... Damien
Broderick

Captain Renault: What in heaven's name brought you to Texas? 
Damien: My health. I came to Texas for the waters. 
Captain Renault: The waters? What waters? We're in the desert. 
Damien: I was misinformed.

spike 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr  9 05:33:49 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:33:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <907709.13368.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05b601c89a03$96905580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Hi Lee. Thanks for continuing this. 

Oh, not at all.  The pleasure is all mine.  Thank you.

> >As I got from Hofstadter, at least while I was reading that
> >chapter, it became clear that there are two kinds of meaning.
> >One is by convention, the other is by isomorphism. He has
> >many nice examples of the latter, and they do not depend
> >on the syntax of any language or upon any conventions.
> 
> I think isomorphism makes some quite specific assumptions
> about perception. I'm pointing this out now, and I think
> what I mean will become clearer later.

Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
two things having similarity even when there are no
perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist"
ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.

> > How could any entity, again the space alien, possibly navigate to
> > Earth if it did not have the ability to distinguish Jupiter and other
>> astronomical bodies from the Earth?  
> 
> Well - it was your idea to start comparing humans to this
> specific alien which had travelled specifically to Earth.
> I might argue that the conditions on the discussion
> determine the outcome. My point would be that there
> is nothing in reality to force the particular understanding
> of reality that we have. 

You had written before

> > > Well Jupiter is a human concept. Separable objects
> > > are human concepts. 

and I am rebutting that claim by pointing out that any alien
that we can imagine that would have the wherewithall to
navigate to Earth would also have, as you put it, "the
concept of Jupiter".  Now if all intelligent entities that
happen to cruise though the solar system must have
an idea of Jupiter, then that adds a lot to the credibility
of the notion that there is an objective thing out there
that we refer to by the name "Jupiter".

> > You and I are clearly
> > *referring* to different things.  I am referring to that great
> > gas thing out there that is about 1000 times the mass of the Earth.
> > You are doing what?  Perhaps referring to what is going on in
> > human brains?  I would call that (and refer to it) as "our concept
> > of Jupiter", or "our map of Jupiter", or "the impression that Jupiter
> > makes on us".  In each case, note that *I* am referring to the
> > gas giant.
> 
> It's a trivial point, but even when you think you're referring 'out there',
> what you're looking at is still in your head.

Well, that's not actually true in my own case. The problem is,
"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
nerve firings all the way down!    :-)

> > But the boundary between a glass on the table and the
> > table itself is objectively real---it is *not* a human manufactured
> > distinction.  All sorts of phenomena, take a wind storm, for 
> > example, separate the glass from the table quite easily, much 
> > more easily than the molecules of the table are separated from
> > each other.  This is why it makes sense and is objectively
> > correct for our distinctions to be made between "glass" and
> > "table" because in this case our distinctions do correspond to
> > actual, objective differences that are "out there".
> 
 > But this is all based on our particular, peculiar, level of perception.
> Those entities we call glass and table are themselves constructed
> from many smaller entities. Their molecular structure is constantly
> shifting.

That's all true.

> We have one specific macroscopic perspective, which
> articulates the glass as a temporally persisting identity
> in distinction from the table. Another being may well
> have a different one which doesn't perceive the "glass"
> at all, but perceives the molecules perpetually shifting
> their relations, and only trivially forming any temporary
> macroscopic objects.

I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily
derived being that successfully makes its way in the
world will recognize.

> ....Or it could experience time in a different way...or
> causation could appear very different to it, shattering
> notions of individuality whatsoever.

I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.

> Do you see the large point I'm making? I'm not talking
> about distinctions as shallow as realist vs antirealist,
> or a French word vs an English word, I'm saying that
> the nature of subjectivity is such that we cannot even
> know what other subjectivities look like.

Right, and it's even pointless IMO to talk about 
"subjectivities", even though, <sigh>, I suppose that
a few discussions really do require it. We progress
best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
to what is objective.

> We have to question our very most basic assumptions,

Well, that's always a good idea!

> because they have all been evolved for specific reasons,
> to help us survive in a very particular environment. And,
> unless I'm mistaken we share this basic 'object' world
> view with the other sentient beings on this planet because
> we all share a lot of history and biology. It's not something
> as simple as culture or humanity which has shaped this
> understanding of the world...our very beings are based
> on understanding the world in this way, of presenting a
> finite comprehensible picture which is generally coherent,
> so that we can actually make a fair stab at acting and
> surviving in the world.

But we would find the same "issues" on any extra-solar
planets as well, right? And why should beings that evolve
there suddenly be unable to perceive what seem to be
very concrete distinctions we've learned about?  As an
example, we didn't use to be able to "see" in the ultra-
violet or infrared, and it would not be the least
surprising if other-evolved creatures don't naturally
see the same wavelengths that we do. (We know that's
the case, of course, with many animals, e.g. bees.)

> But what we think is like a child's drawing.
> Our perceptions aren't a photograph, they're
> a surrealist sketch.

Right, but where we appear to differ is that I think that
we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
exactly what you are saying too. So:

We come back again to how much structure is *really*
"out there", and how much we happen to impose via
our perceptions and preconceptions. I certainly grant
that there is a certain amount of that, but in the 20th
century I think it was greatly exaggerated by many.
EP (Evolutionary Psychology, of course) is very
much a reaction aginst that exaggeration.

More later.

Lee



From moulton at moulton.com  Wed Apr  9 05:17:31 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:17:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <1207718251.4294.416.camel@hayek>


On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 19:33 -0400, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> But like others who cut and
> past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
> transhumanism with lots of mistakes.

As I was reading that I was reminded that if you do not write your own
history then someone will do it.  It might be a worthwhile project to
collect the various parts of early Extropian, transhumanist and related
history. 

Fred




From amara at amara.com  Wed Apr  9 05:39:19 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:39:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] A Small New Horizons Milestone
Message-ID: <p06230900c422053df920@[10.0.10.217]>

A word from the New Horizons mission principal investigator (Alan Stern) -

Today the spacecraft is 810 days from launch and 405 days from Jupiter
closest approach.  That is, the spacecraft has spent as many days
post-Jupiter as it took to get to Jupiter.

At the very end of May, New Horizons will be 25% of the way to Pluto in
days- so we are about to enter the long middle of the journey that will
last until early 2013. 2652 days to go to Pluto Encounter (2015).

"Vigilance is our watchword," he says.  :-)

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From xuenay at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 06:26:31 2008
From: xuenay at gmail.com (Kaj Sotala)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 09:26:31 +0300
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6a13bb8f0804082326m28de7ba0m69abf72990ead6b0@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/8/08, M1N3R <m1n3r2 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> which I consider the best-case scenarion for the future. Among a dozen
> thoughts I have now one question: what do you all know or think about the
> possible technological singularity. Some scientists state that such a large

This article of mine sums up my thoughts about the Singularity:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/whycare.html

See also:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/objections.html


-- 
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tspro1/ | http://xuenay.livejournal.com/

Organizations worth your time:
http://www.singinst.org/ | http://www.crnano.org/ | http://lifeboat.com/


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 08:01:14 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:01:14 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Most of the basic science breakthroughs which have ultimately given us
> > the medical care we enjoy has been publicly funded, and elaborate
> > bureaucratic hoops have had to be jumped through to obtain that
> > funding. Moreover, although they need money for equipment, most of the
> > scientists doing this research have not been pursuing personal profit
> > (it's crazy to go into research if that's what you want), but the
> > approval of their peers. The free market only has a role to play when
> > someone catches wind of a marketable product.
> >
>
> ### Do you know that 85% of all science funding in the US comes from private
> money? I used to think that due to the difficulty in owning basic research
> results there would be underproduction of such results in the absence of
> coerced funding but now I no longer believe it. Many rich people seek the
> approval of their peers too, which is why the Gates foundation is
> outspending the NIH on many of the most pressing health needs in the world.
> Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon, Hughes and dozens of lesser captains of
> industry gave more to science than most governments. If there were no taxing
> parasites feeding on capitalists, there would be so much money sloshing
> around and looking for a good cause that even FAI researchers would be
> swimming in it.

I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on it,
and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it? The main
purpose of taxation is to pay for that which the taxpayers consider
worthwhile but which the free market won't provide, or won't
efficiently and fairly provide. Charity is fickle and degrading; when
I'm given something I want it to be because I'm entitled to it.

> BTW, if we are talking about government funding of research, let's see what
> it gave us: The atomic bomb. Thermonuclear bomb. Weaponized anthrax. Napalm.
> V-gas. Tuskegee syphilis study. The International Space Station. The list is
> long but easy to summarize: Most government research spending goes towards
> destruction (weapons), or propaganda (ISS). Useful, peaceful basic research
> is an afterthought, comprising less than one percent of all spending. You
> can't reasonably speak about the great achievements of government research
> without devoting appropriate attention to the monumental failings.

A lot of government research spending has been into war-making
techniques, especially in the US and the Soviet Union. That's bad, but
it doesn't negate the fact that most of the outstanding scientific
discoveries of the past century have been funded by government,
usually directly but even if you take into account outstanding private
institutions such as Bell Labs, at least indirectly through the public
education system.

As for propaganda and the space program, so what? It's a tragedy that
the propaganda appeal of manned space flight wore off after the first
few moon landings. Do you see private entrepreneurs stepping in with a
few trillion to colonise Mars or the asteroids?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed Apr  9 08:11:11 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 01:11:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <8CA661D9A8E8D6E-C68-6BA@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<8CA661D9A8E8D6E-C68-6BA@webmail-da07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <81C4F3D1888549A89673124EE7C86DFE@GinaSony>

Thank you Alex - and for the laugh, I needed that! Yes, although I didn't need any extra reason to push me to work on animation projects in support of nanotechnologies and other emerging sciences (which I currently am), I will push harder and faster.... 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ablainey at aol.com 
  To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 9:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  Gina, sorry to hear the bad news. Keep your chin up (unless that that makes you dizzy! LOL, got to keep your humour!) stay positive and thanks for sharing.
  I imagine this will make you redouble your efforts.

  take care of yourself
  Alex


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com>
  To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
  Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 7:06
  Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  So dear friends you have been used to me posting updates about my husband James B. Lewis PhD who has bit of historical presence in our community with his "rational gamble" paper written in the Dora Kent case in regards to cryonics as well forming Nanocon early on and his work with the Foresight Institute and nano book editing. As you know in 04 he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, and he had two stem cell transplants, he is doing great! Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
  we may both be using this blog now to keep you informed of both of our health. By the way in case you don't know, I made the Dermal display animation and have been gunning for nanotech for oh I guess a decade now through my Nanogirl News list, Nanotechnology industries portal and my animation work (which I am very much focusing on right now). Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
  A direct link to my post is here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

  Your friend, 

  Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
  Nanotechnology Industries
  http://www.nanoindustries.com
  Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
  Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
  Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
  Health blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com
  Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
  Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
  Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
  "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed Apr  9 08:28:41 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 01:28:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D8B6721063AA4303AA77CC1C8B7EA81B@GinaSony>
	<470a3c520804061115veb7596bg165c9a859552d556@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB7676DDD031446D934268DAADF1F18F@GinaSony>

Yes, I love life, it's just this darn biology! And while I have always held a high vision for nanotech or just simply our progress forward, I did know that at some point mother nature might very well knock on my door and come bearing a nasty little gift, I just hadn't thought that it would be this soon! Being as young as I am, I hadn't been giving myself any foreshadowing, no prep time if you will. But you just never know, age is no deterrent. So please extropes, be prepared, take your vits and your walks - because you never know. 
So I'm not tip top yet, I had my final infusion (Sunday) and I feel better from the effects of the actual infusion steroid, but I still can't see or walk straight (since march 22) when I move around - they say it could take a week, so I am hoping to see better improvements within the next few days. But it is a relief to come and talk amongst you all, so thank you for that. You guys are a great group of friends. 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl


  On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:06 AM, Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:

  > Super, we are so happy, but what I am now reporting to you is about me. It's
  > quite the shock for us, and rather than write a whole long bit about it
  > here, if you are interested I did write it all out for you at what is
  > usually Jim's blog here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com

  Life is a bitch. Or in Latin: life is a fucking bitch. I am so very sorry.

  For what I know, MS is not life threatening (not more than other
  chronic conditions), has a slow progress, can be kept under check, and
  we must hope that more effective therapies are found soon.

  Keep strong and write here more often!

  Best, G.
  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 11:48:04 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:48:04 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Yes, it's an extremely perverse use of the word "insurance" as
>  a euphemism for "national or tax-funded health care system".
>  (Hmm, I guess that is the phrase I should use since the "s"
>  word arouses sensitivities in many.)

Why, exactly? Because it's compulsory? There are all sorts of
commercial situations where (private) insurance is compulsory; for
example, if you are the owner of a unit in an apartment building.

> Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system of national,
>  tax-funded medical care, there will end up being bureaucrats
>  who make the hard decisions about who gets what expensive
>  treatments. Do you really expect the son of a senator to be
>  treated with the same lack of deference a typical semiretired
>  software engineer would be?  There is a record of a certain
>  baseball player---I forget who---who was put at the head of
>  the list for some state or federally funded medical treatment
>  a few years back. You'll never root out that kind of corruption.

I guess it's possible, but the same sort of thing can happen if you're
trying to book a restaurant table. In my personal experience over 16
years in the Australian public health system something like this has
happened once, when hospital management requested that a relative of a
famous person be reassessed after he was rejected for admission. He
was reassessed and rejected for admission again. That was the end of
it, apart from the anger of the clinicians involved at the perceived
interference by management in a clinical decision.

>  I say let the contracts be written, literal, and binding (and
>  strongly enforced by the government) between those who
>  legitimately want insurance for whatever they're afraid of.
>  And if you are unlucky enough to be born with a condition
>  that *predictably* at age 40 will start to require $100,000
>  or $10,000,000 treatments each month to overcome, well,
>  better then to have been of economic utility to other
>  people and have become rich.

This is where universal insurance has an advantage, even if it is
contracted out to a private insurer. The agreement is to insure the
entire population of citizens, come what may.

BTW, there aren't any treatments costing $10,000,000 a month that have
gone through any of the usual studies to show that they are of
benefit, since there is no incentive for anyone to do such studies.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 12:11:48 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:11:48 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
	<059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090511j77c00749kdf7afe580cee6707@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  > I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue.
>  > If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more
>  > into medical school
>
>
> It's enough to make me gag.  *Allowing* more into whatever.
>  And this in a supposedly free country.

The doctors have a vested interest, of course, in controlling their
numbers. They do this by convincing government, but more importantly
by convincing potential patients, that only those who have completed
training specially blessed by the medical profession are competent to
deliver medical care. In the jurisdiction where I live, for example,
it is not actually illegal for any person to perform surgery; it is
only illegal for that person to mislead the patient into thinking that
he is a doctor. But of course, only crazy people would let a
non-medico operate on them. The doctors thereby maintain a closed shop
through, essentially, very good advertising.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 12:29:05 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:29:05 +1000
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804090529q46ef8c60lc04e820f16066d87@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  Yes, you ought to be safe here from such mindless suggestions.
>  I myself, for example, might choose to move somewhere else
>  for a better standard of living or for some other reason, yet
>  should that require that I not be free to criticize any aspects
>  of my new home (or any other thing, for that matter)?
>  Certainly not!
>
>  Still the question does pop up in people's minds, "After paying
>  those taxes all those years in Australia in exchange for, er,
>  "socialized" health care, what could have been so attractive
>  to want to make you leave?  To which you can very rightly
>  and justly say "None of your damn business".  That could
>  very well be my own answer if I relocated to London, say,
>  and then started criticizing certain aspects of life or the
>  government there.

Well, Damien has more right to offer criticisms than those of us who
have only had experience of one or other system. Anyone else out there
who has lived in the US as well as in another country who would like
to comment?





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From amara at amara.com  Wed Apr  9 12:55:54 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 06:55:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI]  What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
Message-ID: <p06230900c4226c945164@[192.168.0.66]>

Stathis Papaioannou stathisp at gmail.com :
>Well, Damien has more right to offer criticisms than those of us who
>have only had experience of one or other system. Anyone else out there
>who has lived in the US as well as in another country who would like to
>comment?

I've lived in three (US, Germany, Italy), and I'm using a fourth
(Estonia). The last is where I'm traveling to Saturday because of the
the third, first, and other reasons. I've commented here (for example:
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-May/035815.html)
and to the wta-talk list too much about it, already however. If anyone
has a specific question, then I can answer after I return (21st).

Ciao,
Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 15:16:56 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 16:16:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804090816k74ad77c9x6fc77212f6b7a0a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
<snip>
>  This is where universal insurance has an advantage, even if it is
>  contracted out to a private insurer. The agreement is to insure the
>  entire population of citizens, come what may.
>
>  BTW, there aren't any treatments costing $10,000,000 a month that have
>  gone through any of the usual studies to show that they are of
>  benefit, since there is no incentive for anyone to do such studies.
>


Stathis - you are discussing this with completely the wrong attitude.

First, you have to accept and assimilate into the core of your being
that the US has the best of everything in the best of all possible
worlds. And *definitely* better than all these socialist countries
that are destroying themselves because they are not more like the US.

Got that? Now you can start discussing slight improvements (but with
no socialist tendencies) that might help the tiny, tiny sections of
the populace who are not already completely happy with the system.


BillK  ;)


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Apr  9 15:36:10 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:36:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Most Critical Review of Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <1207718251.4294.416.camel@hayek>
References: <380-22008428233329953@M2W009.mail2web.com>
	<1207718251.4294.416.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <20080409153612.LTTI13774.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 12:17 AM 4/9/2008, Fred wrote:

>On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 19:33 -0400, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> > But like others who cut and
> > past information, Haava writes a quick flashback on the history of
> > transhumanism with lots of mistakes.
>
>As I was reading that I was reminded that if you do not write your own
>history then someone will do it.  It might be a worthwhile project to
>collect the various parts of early Extropian, transhumanist and related
>history.

Much of this was compiled by ExI with the help of Mitch Porter.  I 
have an assistant researcher who has been scanning the environment 
for current material.  It is a big job to be sure.  But the only way 
that any of this can be meaningful is to have it in a number of 
books,  not just one.  And since some academics favor an aborted and 
bastardized version of history, it has to be presented in that venue as well.

It is all our responsibility.  And it is our responsibility to insist 
that organizations who put up FAQs and other material do not erase 
ExI, Max More, and the rest of us in order to promote their own 
versions of transhumanism.  1000 flowers blooming is lovely indeed, 
but they did come from a seed which was intentionally planted.

Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More, 
BFA, MS, MPhil
University Lecturer
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics
Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Apr  9 16:11:04 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:11:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Technological Singularity
In-Reply-To: <47FC3C71.10900@pobox.com>
References: <BLU109-DS3AEBE87B359A495D0462D8EF20@phx.gbl>
	<47FC3C71.10900@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <1207757562_105@s8.cableone.net>

At 08:48 PM 4/8/2008, Eliezer wrote:

snip

>http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/09/30/three-major-singularity-schools/

I don't see any significant differences in the three singularity 
schools.  It's like the differences between closely related 
religions, outsiders (or in my case a nominal insider) can't see tell 
them apart.

All anticipate a future very different from what we have today.

So do I.

Keith 



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 17:51:14 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:51:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Kind of Health Care System is That, Again?
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090529q46ef8c60lc04e820f16066d87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<057b01c899f9$113c2580$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090529q46ef8c60lc04e820f16066d87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30804091051o5fd0a2c6y1e1e7d00a7585389@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 5:29 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, Damien has more right to offer criticisms than those of us who
> have only had experience of one or other system. Anyone else out there
> who has lived in the US as well as in another country who would like
> to comment?

I lived in New Zealand for seven years and I can say from our own
experiences in two different national healthcare systems that the NZ
system is greatly preferable to the US.  I gave birth to two children
there by cesareans, with difficult pregnancies.  My husband had
photorefractive keratectomy done there by one of the world's leading
eye surgeons who perfected the technique, who just happened to work in
Auckland.  His eyes were not "textbook" and needed a more complicated
procedure and he was thrilled by both the doctor's care and the
results.

My entire family benefited from the New Zealand system, which was in
the process of shifting during our time there (1993 - 2000) from a
completely public system to a private-public mix. We had opportunities
to use both systems and I can't say one was superior to the other,
except in the post-op childbirth area and that was because of very
specific public post-natal nursing issues, but I hear the public
birthing system has greatly improved in the decade since I used it.
To be fair, the problems were no worse than I'd encounter in the US
system and the cost was dramatically lower -- for instance, my
c-sections were one-tenth the cost the same procedure would cost in
the US and my husband's eye surgery was one-fifth.  This was back in
the late 90's.  I'm sure the cost discrepancy would be even larger
today.

Moreover, the NZ pre-natal and well child/pediatric care is second to
none, especially through their Plunket system of early childhood
health education and gatekeeper system.  Please note that the Plunket
society celebrated its centennial last year.  It is not run by the
government, but is a non-profit with close ties to the public health
system, working in cooperation with every hospital and doctor's office
in the country.  It's a great organization and one I wish were in
every country in the world:

http://www.plunket.org.nz//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plunket_Society

However, the public system helped by making children's doctor's visits
from birth to age 5 either free or extremely low cost.

The NZ system is extremely sensible in many ways, as are New
Zealanders themselves.  They have a gatekeeper system of community GPs
and nurses, who send you to a specialist when needed.  The specialists
were also very sensible in their use of expensive tests, technologies,
etc.  New Zealanders are by nature thrifty and ingenious.  They had to
be, living as they do at the bottom of the world and isolated for so
many years.  They also are not litigious.  I used to joke that you'd
need a video of your doctor shooting heroin before a procedure to sue
for malpractice.  These traits drive down costs.  There were times
when my selfish American self would say, "Why can't I have what I
want?"  But there was never a point where my health was jeopardized
because I didn't get exactly what I wanted.

My parents had occasion to use the NZ system as well while they
visited us.  And my blessedly libertarian parents were blown away by
the quality of healthcare.  To this day, my mother wishes she could
transplant our NZ GP and pediatrician to the US to take care of us
all.  It made them NZ system converts, to their chagrin.

If there are negative issues with health in NZ, it's because some
people don't utilize what exists for cultural/educational reasons, and
yes, this can skew to socio-economic stereotypes.  But I have yet to
see a country that bends over backwards more for the health of its
citizens and the good benefits certainly show.  New Zealanders are
some of the healthiest, most robust people I've met in my travels
around the world (BTW and IMHO, equal with Australians in this regard)
and they take the constructive benefits health gives them into the
rest of their lives.

PJ


From jonkc at att.net  Wed Apr  9 17:37:37 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:37:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society  ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><005b01c89542$e7232740$34f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804022150r17c6a3f6l108e4da1a7a78d8f@mail.gmail.com><007201c895b1$8d2ebe60$07f04d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804040659x1120cd9fvf0006e0b953e9fbf@mail.gmail.com><02f301c8967b$4605fb00$d5ee4d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804041323r300f8eabx7272674746cc27a7@mail.gmail.com><003401c89743$ac0ec030$a3ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207463830_3080@s5.cableone.net><005701c897fb$f8f88080$6401a8c0@ZANDRA2><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> Rubber has a dialectic strength of around 500 volts/mil, and a density
> close to water.  [.]So as a rough estimate, the cable mass to hold up 100
> km of rubber insulation alone would be in the range of 2 million tons.

OK, so forget rubber, let's try something that can do a little bit better
than 500 volts/mil, something like Fused Quartz, it can do
5 x 107 volts/mil. Yes Quartz is about twice as dense as rubber,
but even so that should reduce the weight by a factor of 50,000 or so.

And I'm not saying a space elevator will ever be built, I'm just saying
that if one can be made then there is no reason not to use it to carry
power lines.

> He  might have been willing to consider Peter's fantastic vision
>[power satellites] , but Gerry [O'Neill] had shown that another
> fantasy, lunar industrialization, was a  prerequisite.

It currently costs about $20,000 to put one kilogram into geosynchronous
orbit, and no I can't give you a number, I don't know how much a power
satellite would weigh except that it would be many many kilograms. It
seems to me that for the idea to be practical a dramatically cheaper way
needs to be found to put massive things in that orbit, and the only two 
ways I know of are space elevators or lunar industrialization. If neither
of those can work then power satellites are Dead On Arrival.

You would know better than me but I was under the (perhaps incorrect)
impression that the L5 society was set up to promote ideas like O'Neill's.
And by the way you never should have changed the name, the L5 society
sounded cool.

  John K Clark




From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  9 18:49:04 2008
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:49:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 7000 mpg (was EP and Peak Oil)
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40804091149n7b2e4698lf99f501bb769dc43@mail.gmail.com>

If this has already been noted, then I apologize.,

Approximately 65% of US oil consumption goes for cars.  If the average
mileage was say 20 mpg, then 7000 mpg would reduce this to 1/350th.
Yippee! Problem solved.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/361/7-000-mpg-car-wins-eco-marathon.html

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Wed Apr  9 21:17:43 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 16:17:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <47FD3277.5050709@insightbb.com>

And here this guy is about 10 inches taller than her but could also be 
up for it. 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=513820&in_page_id=1811
With the right training these people could be heroes and boost the 
self-esteem of short people everywhere! (including myself at 5'3") It 
really is a shame that no one has seriously considered such a proposal. 
It makes an incredible amount of sense but NASA would rather worry about 
"offending" short folks. Have you ever considered getting some small 
people to buy in on this and then build a proposal to release to the media?


spike wrote:
>  
>
> Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a really tiny human for a
> mission to Mars.  I noted that the mass of a pressure vessel scales as the
> cube of its linear dimension.  Well, here we have a young lady who is less
> than a third my height and less than a tenth my mass.  So if we scaled the
> spacecraft to her dimensions, the Mars-bound payload would be perhaps four
> percent the mass required to send my grossly oversized ass:
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html
>
> She has such a sweet smile too, you hafta like her even before you know her.
>
> Ahhhh Houston, aaahhh we have a solution...
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  9 20:53:20 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:53:20 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <mailman.59.1207757588.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <946107.20274.qm@web27010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Lee Corbin wrote

>Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system
>of national,tax-funded medical care, there will end
>up being bureaucrats who make the hard decisions
>about who gets what expensive
>treatments. 

As someone working in the life insurance industry who
knows a little about claims, there's a corollary to
this:
In any system of market-based insurance fund for
health care, there will always be some pencil pusher
employed by the management to decline your perfectly
justified claim in order to boost corporate profits.

 To be fair, it's very difficult for any of us to save
up enough cash to cover the cost of the more expensive
surgeries or cancer treatments. In parts of the world
with medical facilities but few insurance schemes or
government health plans, people have to rely on the
family as mutual support network. 
 Government-funded schemes take our taxes and spread
them around according to some government planner's
ideas. Insurance schemes take customers, charge them a
premium according to their risk, turn away those most
likely to need very expensive treatment or exclude
their conditions that will need the expensive
treatment, and then fund the rest as best they can.
 Overall, we have to pool our funds and share out our
risks as best we can. With our current technology, we
can't afford EVERYTHING, so there has to be SOME
rationing in every system. 
 I'm sure some of our libertarian friends will tell
you the alternative of free-market pay-as-you go would
work, or that you can sue the insurance company if it
won't pay your claim. While in theory this works, in
the world we live in you need to pay the hospital
bills as best you can, as they don't extend credit
much. If you have cancer and can't get the cash
up-front for payment, then you may have to go without
treatment while the legal battle for your treatment
goes on, and you might die in the meantime. There are
plenty of examples of people in the US engaged in
legal battles for payment, which keep going up to
higher courts, all the while the poor schmuck who
needs the cash to rebuild their lives is stuck
suffering.

One of my biggest hopes for our transhuman future is
AI delivering expert medical advice cheaply and
biotech offering good treatments at low cost, so we
can afford really good health care for all with
minimal rationing.

Tom


      ___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference  

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  9 21:24:02 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:24:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight, Deregulating Stock  	Exchanges
In-Reply-To: <mailman.55.1207714253.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Lee's been on fine form, so I feel the need to reply
to another of his posts as well:

Lee wrote: "Is *every* society and *every*
civilization composed of historical type human beings
necessarily capable of self-regulation,
self-government, and almost unrestrained capitalism?
I ask that as a general sort of question which you and
other readers may or may not wish to explore. I myself
don't think so."

Well, historical type human beings are a diverse
bunch, but they *could* take to self-regulation and
self-government, and some form of market-based
economy.
Take my fine people, the British. Some people would
like to have you believe that this blessed people were
a Chosen People who developed the industrial
revolution and built a large empire, and settled
America to form a Nation guided by Providence,
Manifest Destiny and other Wooly-Minded Concepts with
Arbitrary Capitals. Some think there is something
special that led the British and their
English-speaking descendents to their place of
prominence.
 I take the opposite view. If the violence-loving
people from a bunch of rainy islands on the Northwest
of Europe could overcome much bigger and more populous
nations like France and Spain, and have their creole
of Romantic and Germanic languages become one of the
world's dominant languages, then there's hope for
everybody. If we could do it, there's no reason any
other culture/people/nation/arbitrary grouping of
humanity couldn't achieve a great deal too.



In response to Rafal, Lee also wrote: " Now it would
be nice if the U.S. today had an 1855 type small
federal government, and so could conduct up to 50
separate experiments towards the self-regulation in
stock markets you speak of. Even now, I would promote
step-by-step reductions in the oversight of the SEC
provided that the most knowledgeable people involved
would anticipate no debacle."

Rafal wrote:
" A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley, which imposed
huge
 costs that disproportionately afflict smaller
businesses, and thus serve to limit the competition
against entrenched large companies - exactly the
companies that lobby the government and hire former
SEC employees (the "revolving door" phenomenon)."

Well Lee, global competition is providing an example
of lighter market regulation. When Sarbanes-Oxley hit
US business (as Rafal mentioned), some businesses
based in both New York and London dropped their New
York listing. A couple of years ago, it was widely
trumpeted that London had overtaken New York as a
global financial centre as it had a mix of US and
European investment banks in a place with fairly light
touch regulation by global standards. With the current
"credit crunch", it remains to be seen where the
global financial centres are, as everybody's banking
businesses seem to be in trouble.
 In fact, the UK leads in low-regulation stock
markets.
To quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Investment_Market

"The AIM has also started to become an international
exchange, often due to its low-regulatory burden,
especially in relation to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act
(though only a quarter of AIM-listed companies would
qualify to list on a U.S. stock exchange even prior to
passage of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act[1]). As of December
2005 over 270 foreign companies had been admitted to
the Alternative Investment Market."

The AIM is so colossally low-regulatory that London's
becoming a haven for people seeking to raise funds to
go drill for oil,gold,copper or anything else that
requires highly speculative prospecting and in most
markets would require massive disclosures. It's also
been the home of a ?375million fraud, and a haven for
offshore financial vehicles. Time will tell if this
low-regulatory regime survives or if pressure from
other countries persuades the UK to tighten up.

As an aside, many stock markets are themselves
publicly quoted companies, and there is a process of
consolidation going on around the western world -
there's a bidding war for the London Stock Exchange,
and other stock exchanges/bourses are under bids at
the moment.

Tom


      ___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference  

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/


From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr  9 22:55:39 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:55:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] rice price
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080328232852.0243e6f0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>

Damien wrote:
> Uh-oh:
> LONDON and BANGKOK -- Rice prices jumped 30 per cent to an all-time
> high on Thursday, raising fears of fresh outbreaks of social unrest
> across Asia where the grain is a staple food for more than 2.5bn people.
> The increase came after Egypt, a leading exporter, imposed a formal
> ban on selling rice abroad to keep local prices down, and the
> Philippines announced plans for a major purchase of the grain in the
> international market to boost supplies. Global rice stocks are at
> their lowest since 1976.


It seems there are riots around the world because of rising 
prices. An Egyptian daily newspaper reports that 12,000 
people have been arrested for selling flour on 
the black market. Rice prices, meanwhile, rocketed 
from just over $200 per ton last October to $430 
at the end of March. The government responded on April 1 
by suspending rice exports for six months.
http://tinyurl.com/6k2lhu

Not to mention that corn (and tortillas) price jumps to record 
also because of biofuel.
http://tinyurl.com/5bz69f
http://tinyurl.com/35h5l4
http://tinyurl.com/54wsed









From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 10 00:43:28 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:43:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] space station video
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804100110.m3A1A9Dg004596@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ... On Behalf Of rafal at smigrodzki.org; ExI chat list
...
> 
> BTW, if we are talking about government funding of 
> research... The International Space Station...


Space station fans, check this kewall video:

http://www.tietronix.com/anim/MoviePlayer.asp?myMovie=movies/assembly640x360
.swf


spike



From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu Apr 10 00:58:15 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:58:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl
In-Reply-To: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <759402.39601.qm@web65401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B7D1B242A49F4E38A639FD7533137877@GinaSony>

Thank you Stuart, this D link is very interesting, I am looking into it and am already taking a supplement. And yes as I am learning - there does seem to be a very clear latitudinal correlation (look at this map I found: http://www.dawnryan.com/Americana/MSMAP-1.jpg). In fact I moved here to Seattle in 99, beforehand I lived mostly in California, and I do spend a majority of my time doing animation work in front of the computer. I try to get walks in but I have to admit that I am very passionate and committed about what I do and when I get involved it is hard for me to tear myself away. But I will need to do so more often. 

The irony is I had thought it best for me to avoid the sun because I am very fair (as well as sensitive skin) and had severe burns (even second degree) when I was younger. I barely have any biological family history but I did find out there was a fatal melanoma which only validated the concerns. I should have however taken D to compensate, but that's hindsight and you know how that goes. So for me, it is a fine window of the proper dose of sunshine, not too much as to damage and not too little (which I now know). I'll just have to work on it. And about the proof, my husband seems more than willing to indulge the idea and I'm supposed to be getting my rest now boys! Today I am feeling better. The last two days I had some tenderness around my shoulders and neck, but I woke up today and that artifact is gone. I feel rather sluggish and my vision isn't squared up yet, so I'm still hanging in there for better results. They gave me my first infusion on Friday and the last on Sunday and they said it can take a week, so my body could still be just working it's way through the process. In the meantime we do have the other tests scheduled, the optic nerve test, the neck/spine mri, and the spinal tap will all be performed within the next few weeks. I'm glad for this, the sooner the better. Then I'll know where I stand and what I need to do. I'm hanging in there. 


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/


Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Avantguardian 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:40 PM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad medical news for your Nanogirl



  --- Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:
  > Anyway, my fellow extropes, nanotech supporters and
  > cryonicists, I would love to hear from you. 
  > A direct link to my post is here:
  >
  http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-medical-news-on-gina-front.html

  I am sorry to hear about your condition, Gina. It may cheer you up to
  hear that science is making pretty good progress in understanding it.
  It seems to be far more environmental than genetic although some
  genetic backgrounds such as the eskimos are very resistant to it. The
  biggest buzz in the medical journals lately is the link between MS
  progression and vitamin D deficiency caused by living in high latitudes
  and/or dietary insufficiency. Living in the Seattle area as you do, it
  would probably benefit you to get some sunlight or UV B action going
  on. If you can't relocate southward than maybe tanning booths are a
  doable alternative. In any case summer is coming so try and soak up
  whatever sun you can. I expect you to post bikini photos as proof that
  you are following my advice. ;-) Also rituxamab (generic for Rituxan)
  has been showing some preliminary promise as a treatment, but I'll
  leave recommendations for drugs per se to your doctor.


  Stuart LaForge
  alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

  "Life is the sum of all your choices."  
  Albert Camus


        ____________________________________________________________________________________
  You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 10 01:37:45 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 18:37:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 7000 mpg (was EP and Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40804091149n7b2e4698lf99f501bb769dc43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804100204.m3A24RIi002008@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> Jeff Davis
> Subject: [ExI] 7000 mpg (was EP and Peak Oil)
...
> 
> http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/361/7-000-mpg-car-wins-eco
> -marathon.html
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis

Jeff these kinds of engineering demonstrations are good for focussing
attention on what it is we need to give up, or what we need to do in order
to have extremely energy efficient transportation.  It really isn't all that
hard to do.  We would need to move away from the traditional pneumatic tire
that has been with us for over a century, but consider the conditions under
which that style of tire became popular: most roads were rough.  Now we have
the technology to make roads smooth, and keep them that way.  So we would go
to smaller diameter and narrower solid tires, with the contact patch made of
about a cm ring of polyurethane for instance.  Polyurethane was used for
skateboard wheels in our misspent youth, because they have low rolling
resistance in that critical application.  We would give up some smoothness
for lowering rolling resistance, which is why we would need to compensate by
making the roads smoother.

We would give up high speeds and hard acceleration, but we can live without
that.  If the car doesn't accelerate hard, it doesn't need to have a lot of
structural strength to withstand engine torque, which saves weight.  If it
doesn't need to deal with potholes, the suspension travel can be very short,
saving more energy.  If it can be low to the ground, giving up some
visibility, it minimizes frontal area, which saves wind resistance.  If we
have a single-seater, it can be very narrow, again saving weight.  With
those design sacrifices, I can imagine single-seat ape haulers getting 1000
mpg, and still be as fast as a bicycle (assuming a non-athlete cyclist,
being as a good athlete can often outrun traffic even with our V8s under
some conditions.) 

We can do all this.  There is some pain, but it is not fatal.

spike


 





From amara at amara.com  Thu Apr 10 02:36:21 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:36:21 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Performance enhancing drugs reach academia
Message-ID: <p06230902c4232d5e7da3@[192.168.0.66]>

Don't miss the comments attached to the article and this remarkable quote too:

"As a professional, it is my duty to use my resources to the greatest
benefit of humanity. If 'enhancers' can contribute to this humane
service, it is my duty to do so."

Performance enhancing drugs reach academia

http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2008/04/09/performance-enhancing-drugs-reach-academia


By John Timmer | Published: April 09, 2008 - 12:23PM CT

The sports world has been rocked by repeated doping scandals as athletes
have availed themselves of sophisticated formulations of steroids,
stimulants, and other drugs to get any edge they can in the face of
fierce competition. In an era of tight research budgets and journals
that don't even review the vast majority of manuscripts they receive,
competition in the academic world can seem equally fierce. If drugs
exist that increase focus or reduce anxiety, they could certainly give
an edge to people in the research community, and vague talk of their use
by academics has apparently become common enough to spawn an elaborate
April Fool's joke: the NIH-sponsored World Anti-Brain Doping Agency.

Beyond the jokes, how real is the problem? It's hard to tell, but
Nature, spurred by a commentary on the topic that appeared in its pages
in December, took a stab at finding out. They commissioned an informal
internet survey, open to the global scientific community, that surveyed
the use of a number of drugs that enhance mental performance. You may
insert various caveats about a self-selected survey population here.

The group of over 1,400 respondents were heavily biased towards US-based
researchers, who accounted for 70 percent of the results; the next
highest nation only registered as six percent of the survey population.
Those responding were widely spread across the scientific community;
three different fields registered in the teens, and the largest category
was other at 35 percent. Age was also broadly distributed. Although the
peak decade, 26 to 35, accounted for 34 percent of the responses, those
55 to 65 had a significant presence in the survey population.

Almost 35 percent of them have taken Ritalin, Provigil, or beta
blockers, and 60 percent of those were taking the drugs specifically for
improving mental capacity instead of medical reasons. The numbers varied
a bit among the age categories, but there was no real trend; those over
55 were about as likely to use them as those under 35. Ritalin was the
most popular drug, but a number of respondents had sampled more than
one. The vast majority took them for improving memory or concentration,
and the "other" response to that question handily beat combatting
jetlag, which accounted for a small fraction of the responses. Nearly
half who used the drugs took them daily or weekly, while half reported
unpleasant side effects (the overlap between the two isn't clear).

There are a number of reasons to view this phenomenon as something a bit
different from athletic doping. Seminars aren't really a form of
competition, yet they can still be crippled by a case of jetlag or stage
fright that a one-time dose of these drugs could reduce or eliminate. At
least one stimulant that has significant effects on behavior-caffeine-is
already widely used and abused by the scientific community, making the
step up to more potent drugs a small one. There's also an altruistic
motivation that can be hard to spot in the athletic world. Nature quotes
one researcher as saying, "As a professional, it is my duty to use my
resources to the greatest benefit of humanity. If 'enhancers' can
contribute to this humane service, it is my duty to do so."

Nevertheless, it gets tough to draw sharp lines that separate the
altruistic, innocuous, and selfish reasons for turning to these drugs.
Like other areas of society, however, the academic community will have
to decide what it means to achieve success in part through chemical
assistance, and whether that somehow alters the equations the research
field is governed by.

The survey results will be made available once the article goes live.

Nature, 2008. DOI: 10.1038/4501157a and 10.1038/452674a.


-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  9 19:29:46 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:29:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Response
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS199E5F48DB4F7343AF56F8EED0@phx.gbl>

My apologies for raising an already discussed topic, I had no time yesterday to take a look. Actually, I'm just starting out with several ideas which I came through during random searches on the internet. Among these were the one raised yesterday. Since I saw the film Terminator at a very young age I've been interested in cybernetics and, as it is today, bionics, which I intend to study at university next year. And yes, I'm from Hungary. Someone else from there? It is just so hard to find people who accept or even have a faint notion about transhumanist ideas. Is there a place, a club or something which shares these thoughts and in Hungary (maybe in Budapest?). 

Thomas Pardy
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From m1n3r2 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  9 19:56:56 2008
From: m1n3r2 at hotmail.com (M1N3R)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:56:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] BIONICS: Collective Consciousness
Message-ID: <BLU109-DS31B90C63AFE460C1CF8828EED0@phx.gbl>

Asimov has been mentioned recently. Now, in his book Foundation and Earth he proposes a most interesting idea for a Second Galactic Empire (Galaxia if I remember well). This entails a collective consciousness of humanity on a galactic basis. Sci-fi goes so far. Here comes a possible future. So many of my acquaintances are afraid of losing individuality due to the development and 'government oppression' as some say... Really? Actually, I suppose it would be plausible to have some auxiliary core installed and leave the brain read-only. We have the internet, a good beginning for a collective 'overmind'. What if we just connected ourselves directly to the internet enabling us to share thoughts, on a more advanced level, even feelings? Technological singularity might be due to the work of a human network of minds (like cells in our brain), in my opinion. Then we, humanity, would be able to create the unthinkable and this has nothing to do with an end. Or yes, it is an end of what we have now and a new beginning. I love great ideas like democracy, communism or the European Union (yeah, right I'm young enough to do so :D). However, externally solving the issues our nature holds is impossible (it is aggression I mean and hatred etc.) As I see and experience it, most conflicts are due to misunderstanding or conflicting ideas (on a one-on-one basis, that is). To have each of us understand the others might solve this issue, right? (And here comes a possible artificial intelligence enhancement. Actually there is a natural increase in brain capacity as I gather). I'd be most happy to live in a world where there is no language, no unnecessary writing as thoughts are transferred directly if need be. And I still have so many questions and ideas to share but must go now. Hope you'll find this interesting.

Thomas Pardy (M1N3R)
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 06:43:03 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 23:43:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:37 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> "hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

snip
>
>  OK, so forget rubber, let's try something that can do a little bit better
>  than 500 volts/mil, something like Fused Quartz, it can do
>  5 x 107 volts/mil. Yes Quartz is about twice as dense as rubber,
>  but even so that should reduce the weight by a factor of 50,000 or so.

Can you cite the source for this remarkable number?

>  And I'm not saying a space elevator will ever be built, I'm just saying
>  that if one can be made then there is no reason not to use it to carry
>  power lines.

Long as you need power near the equator and the loses in 22,000 miles
of wires are not more than microwave transmission.

>  > He  might have been willing to consider Peter's fantastic vision
>  >[power satellites] , but Gerry [O'Neill] had shown that another
>
> > fantasy, lunar industrialization, was a  prerequisite.
>
>  It currently costs about $20,000 to put one kilogram into geosynchronous
>  orbit, and no I can't give you a number, I don't know how much a power
>  satellite would weigh except that it would be many many kilograms.

Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000 metric
tons for 5 GW.

>  It
>  seems to me that for the idea to be practical a dramatically cheaper way
>  needs to be found to put massive things in that orbit, and the only two
>  ways I know of are space elevators or lunar industrialization. If neither
>  of those can work then power satellites are Dead On Arrival.

I just finished working out the numbers for using 200 times reusable
rockets about twice the size of a Saturn V.  To my surprise the energy
payback works out to 15 days and it takes 3 power sats to provide the
propellants.  Now if we can get the cost of the rockets down to a
reasonable number that might work.  Incidentally, the best guess for
the space elevator is only a dollar a kg for lift energy, but a
hundred dollars a kg for capital cost.

I have not yet worked out the numbers for laser launch.

>  You would know better than me but I was under the (perhaps incorrect)
>  impression that the L5 society was set up to promote ideas like O'Neill's.

You are exactly correct.

>  And by the way you never should have changed the name, the L5 society
>  sounded cool.

It wasn't my idea.

Keith Henson


From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 10 09:52:16 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <169076.37511.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee:

>Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
>a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
>two things having similarity even when there are no
>perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
>are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist" 
>ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
>can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
>even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.

I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving what something looks like outside of perception. I predict you'll disagree with this, but I stick to my guns that for there to be similarity (or even definable qualities) of "somethings" you need to have a specific perspective from which you are looking at them. I don't think we can sensibly talk about how something appears when no one is looking at it.

>and I am rebutting that claim (that Jupiter is a human concept)
>by pointing out that any alien
>that we can imagine that would have the wherewithall to
>navigate to Earth would also have, as you put it, "the
>concept of Jupiter".  Now if all intelligent entities that
>happen to cruise though the solar system must have
>an idea of Jupiter, then that adds a lot to the credibility
>of the notion that there is an objective thing out there
>that we refer to by the name "Jupiter".

Okay - I think here, we're actually confusing each other. By saying Jupiter is a human concept, I didn't mean that other non-humans couldn't have a similar one. I actually meant that it's a precisely defined concept with specific boundaries and qualities attached - as in the cat example last time, there is no precise "Jupiter-object" in reality - it's a useful concept, and aliens may well articulate their experience of reality into a very similar concept...but there's no precise Jupiter out there, because reality doesn't have the kind of precisely delineated objects our language imputes. Th real problem is that the more precisel;y we try to define our words and concepts, the more slippery reality becomes. This is <i>not</i> to say there's not something that correlates with the word. As I've said before, I'm neither realist nor anti-realist. I think the binary involved here doesn't do justice.

But, this discussion of Jupiter I think is taking us further and further away from the initial issue, which was of Napoleon - and I think it's here that my point is much more useful (to be frank, in regards to something like Jupiter it's really rather a trivial point). What have you to say in this regard?

>The problem is,
>"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
>and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
>to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
>on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
>that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
>The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
>way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
>wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
>that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
>(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
>nerve firings all the way down!    :-)

I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and Jupiter become part of a single system. While admitting the utility of it, I disagree with the skin-barrier of identity (this is probably clear by now). I don't claim to draw any distinct boundaries between the observer and observed. (This is also probably by now apparent)

>I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
>more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
>same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
>not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
>recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
>say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
>of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily 
>derived being that successfully makes its way in the
>world will recognize.

>I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
>be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.

Okay. I'll wait for you to offer either an argument or some evidence for why this is the case ;) (Still though, for as long as we're talking about other subjectivities note that this makes no real inroad into the question of objective identities/properties)

>We progress
>best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>to what is objective.

Can you offer a means for doing this?

>But we would find the same "issues" on any extra-solar
>planets as well, right? 

Not necessarily. And planets aren't the only source for intelligence to develop (at a fairly extreme - though not the most extreme - point, take Boltzmann Brains as an example)

>where we appear to differ is that I think that
>we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
>of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
>All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
>(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
>to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
>exactly what you are saying too. So:

Hmm, not necessarily. I'm saying we've developed a particular kind of awareness/conceptualisation which happens to have worked. The fact that everything in the "Earth" system has roughly the same kind of objective concept-structure would be pretty much determined by our evolutionary lineage, and our interpdependent integration as a system.

Mike








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From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 10 11:07:09 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)
Message-ID: <889128.18948.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've been thinking more about this, and I think there is quite a deep misunderstanding between us that reflects a comment someone else made a while back - you're talking about ontology, whereas I'm talking about epistemology. This is why I keep trying to shake off the 'realist-antirealist' boxes, because they're irrelevant to what I'm talking about. I'm not saying (to continue the example) there's no such 'thing' as Jupiter...there is probably 'something' which correlates to the word; however, that something does not <i>equate</i> with the word. This is to say, our language characterises objects as clearly delineated, persistent, and with a definite independent identity. I claim that in "reality" (to whatever extent we wish to use this term) things are simply a lot more fuzzy than this. And, in terms of something like "Napoleon", all we have is a word...the "reality" of Napoleon depends entirely on how we choose to define personhood, and precisely the
 problem is that we don't have a specific definiton of the word so everyone chooses to define it however they like. Therefore, the question of whether Napoleon <i>actually</i> still exists or not is unanswerable, at least until we have done some very precise work in defining what we mean by the term "the person Napoleon".

Secondly, I'd wish to withdraw from this emphasis on 'other' subjectivities such as aliens...such talk is purely conjectural. My main point about the relevance of concepts such as Jupiter and ex American presidents, was that we should be learning to live within our own subjectivity, not constantly striving to see outside of it (for such is impossible and leads only to enormous confusion). Trying to speculate as to what aliens think is just as impossible and useless. What I see and feel, my world, is where I should be living, not in some speculative "objective" reality which I only have inferrential access to. The nature of objects 'out there' really isn't that important...it's what happens with the objects 'in here' which makes all the difference, and this is all I will ever know about anyway.

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Miller <ain_ani at yahoo.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:52:16 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood

Lee:

>Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
>a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
>two things having similarity even when there are no
>perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
>are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist" 
>ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
>can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
>even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.

I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving what something looks like outside of perception. I predict you'll disagree with this, but I stick to my guns that for there to be similarity (or even definable qualities) of "somethings" you need to have a specific perspective from which you are looking at them. I don't think we can sensibly talk about how something appears when no one is looking at it.

>and I am rebutting that claim (that Jupiter is a human concept)
>by pointing out that any alien
>that we can imagine that would have the wherewithall to
>navigate to Earth would also have, as you put it, "the
>concept of Jupiter".  Now if all intelligent entities that
>happen to cruise though the solar system must have
>an idea of Jupiter, then that adds a lot to the credibility
>of the notion that there is an objective thing out there
>that we refer to by the name "Jupiter".

Okay - I think here, we're actually confusing each other. By saying Jupiter is a human concept, I didn't mean that other non-humans couldn't have a similar one. I actually meant that it's a precisely defined concept with specific boundaries and qualities attached - as in the cat example last time, there is no precise "Jupiter-object" in reality - it's a useful concept, and aliens may well articulate their experience of reality into a very similar concept...but there's no precise Jupiter out there, because reality doesn't have the kind of precisely delineated objects our language imputes. Th real problem is that the more precisel;y we try to define our words and concepts, the more slippery reality becomes. This is <i>not</i> to say there's not something that correlates with the word. As I've said before, I'm neither realist nor anti-realist. I think the binary involved here doesn't do justice.

But, this discussion of Jupiter I think is taking us further and further away from the initial issue, which was of Napoleon - and I think it's here that my point is much more useful (to be frank, in regards to something like Jupiter it's really rather a trivial point). What have you to say in this regard?

>The problem is,
>"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
>and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
>to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
>on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
>that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
>The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
>way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
>wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
>that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
>(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
>nerve firings all the way down!    :-)

I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and Jupiter become part of a single system. While admitting the utility of it, I disagree with the skin-barrier of identity (this is probably clear by now). I don't claim to draw any distinct boundaries between the observer and observed. (This is also probably by now apparent)

>I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
>more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
>same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
>not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
>recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
>say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
>of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily 
>derived being that successfully makes its way in the
>world will recognize.

>I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
>be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.

Okay. I'll wait for you to offer either an argument or some evidence for why this is the case ;) (Still though, for as long as we're talking about other subjectivities note that this makes no real inroad into the question of objective identities/properties)

>We progress
>best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>to what is objective.

Can you offer a means for doing this?

>But we would find the same "issues" on any extra-solar
>planets as well, right? 

Not necessarily. And planets aren't the only source for intelligence to develop (at a fairly extreme - though not the most extreme - point, take Boltzmann Brains as an example)

>where we appear to differ is that I think that
>we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
>of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
>All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
>(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
>to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
>exactly what you are saying too. So:

Hmm, not necessarily. I'm saying we've developed a particular kind of awareness/conceptualisation which happens to have worked. The fact that everything in the "Earth" system has roughly the same kind of objective concept-structure would be pretty much determined by our evolutionary lineage, and our interpdependent integration as a system.

Mike








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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 11:56:59 2008
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:56:59 -0300
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
References: <200804090503.m39530n4025108@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <00a901c89b01$fcb91640$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>

Spike> Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a really tiny 
human for a
> mission to Mars.  I noted that the mass of a pressure vessel scales as the
> cube of its linear dimension.  Well, here we have a young lady who is less
> than a third my height and less than a tenth my mass.  So if we scaled the
> spacecraft to her dimensions, the Mars-bound payload would be perhaps four
> percent the mass required to send my grossly oversized ass:
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html


We should not be advocating these kind of solutions to compensate for our 
poor chemical rockets. A trip to Mars should be atomic or ionic.



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 14:40:53 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:40:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] healing clays hold promise against infection and disease
Message-ID: <2d6187670804100740s54f0134dp59c74c8233da476b@mail.gmail.com>

http://biodesign.asu.edu/news/healing-clays-hold-promise-in-fight-against-mrsa-superbug-infections-and-disease


"Healing clays" hold promise in fight against MRSA superbug infections and
disease

NEW ORLEANS ? Mud may be coming to a medicine cabinet or pharmacy near you.
Scientists from Arizona State University report that minerals from clay
promise could provide inexpensive, highly-effective antimicrobials to fight
methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) infections that are
moving out of health care settings and into the community. These "superbugs"
are increasingly resistant to multiple antibiotics and cause thousands of
deaths each year.

Unlike conventional antibiotics routinely administered by injection or
pills, the so-called "healing clays" could be applied as rub-on creams or
ointments to keep MRSA infections from spreading, according to a research
duo from ASU's Biodesign Institute and College of Liberal Arts and Sciences.
The clays also show promise against a wide range of other harmful bacteria,
including those that cause skin infections and food poisoning, they add.
Their study, one of the first to explore the antimicrobial activity of
natural clays in detail, was presented at the 235th national meeting of the
American Chemical Society, the world's largest scientific society.

Clays have been used for thousands of years as a remedy for infected wounds,
indigestion, and other health problems, either by applying clay to the skin
or eating it. Cleopatra's famed beauty has been credited to her use of clay
facials. Today, clays are still commonly used at health spas in the form of
facials and mud baths. However, armed with new investigative tools,
researchers Shelley Haydel and Lynda Williams are putting the clays to the
test, scientifically.

"Clays are little chemical drug-stores in a packet," says study co-leader
Williams, a geochemist in the School of Earth and Space Exploration. "They
contain literally hundreds of

In their latest study, funded by the National Institutes of Health,
Williams, Haydel and their colleagues collected more than 20 different clay
samples from around the world to investigate their antibacterial activities.
Study co-leader Haydel, a microbiologist in ASU's School of Life Sciences
and a researcher in ASU's Biodesign Institute, tested each of the clays
against bacteria known to cause human diseases. These bacteria include MRSA,
*Mycobacterium ulcerans* (a microbe related to the tuberculosis bacterium
that causes a flesh-eating disease known as Buruli ulcer), as well as *E.
coli* and *Salmonella* (which cause food poisoning).

The researchers identified at least two clays from the United States that
kill or significantly reduce the growth of these bacteria, in addition to
the one French green clay that launched their research in 2005. The
antibacterial effect of the French clay was documented this year in
the *Journal
of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy*, with co-author Christine Remenih.

Identifying what specific compounds make these clays effective antibacterial
agents presents a challenge, researchers say, but they credit their combined
perspectives, coming as they do from two very different scientific
disciplines, for their successes. Haydel and Williams note too that tools
like electron and ion microscopy might also reveal how these antibacterial
clays may interact with the cell membranes or cellular physiology of the
bacteria to kill.

Williams and Haydel continue to test new clay samples from around the world
to determine their germ-fighting potential. They hope that the more
promising clays will be developed into a skin ointment or pill to fight a
variety of bacterial infections or possibly as an agricultural wash to
prevent food poisoning. Several companies have expressed interest in forming
partnerships to develop the clays as antimicrobial agents, the scientists
say.

But ordinary mud can contain dangerous bacteria as well as toxic minerals
like arsenic and mercury, the researchers point out. Until healing clays are
developed that are scientifically proven, which could take several years,
they say that hand washing and other proper hygiene techniques may be the
best bet for keeping MRSA and other harmful bacteria at bay.
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 10 14:42:08 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:42:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <00a901c89b01$fcb91640$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <200804101509.m3AF8n7q000247@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> Henrique Moraes Machado
> Subject: Re: [ExI] tiny martians again
> 
> Spike> Several years ago, I posted here about looking for a 
> really tiny human for a mission to Mars...
> > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348248,00.html
> 
> We should not be advocating these kind of solutions to 
> compensate for our poor chemical rockets. A trip to Mars 
> should be atomic or ionic.

Of course, but the same advantages to sending tiny people still apply,
regardless of which propulsion system is used.

spike







From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr 10 16:07:27 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:07:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>

Me:
>>Fused Quartz, it can do  5 x 10^7 volts/mil.

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> Can you cite the source for this remarkable number?

I too thought the number was remarkable, it was larger than even I thought
it would be so I decided I wouldn't use it unless I could find 3 independent
references to it, I could. See:

http://www.proscitech.com/cataloguex/get_notes.asp?fusedquartz    or

http://www.mtixtl.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=591  or

http://www.qtubing.com/index/tech_data

By the way, I found one reference that said Muscovite Mica could do even
better but I couldn't find any conformation so I can't swear to it.

Me:
>> I don't know how much a power satellite would weigh

You:
>Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000
>metric tons for 5 GW.

That figure is indeed very easy to look up but it is much less easy to have
any confidence in it. Even with mundane things like civilian airliners  the
early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually proves
to be far too optimistic, and far more people worked on the jet than worked
on the design of a power satellite. I don't think anyone really knows what
the damn thing would weigh except to say it would be very very heavy.

  John K Clark










From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 16:51:38 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:51:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804101509.m3AF8n7q000247@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <00a901c89b01$fcb91640$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<200804101509.m3AF8n7q000247@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804100951p55fd7f63xe065fc2f3775090b@mail.gmail.com>

In Arizona there is a "little person" who is a local celebrity actor but
also has a day job as an engineer.  His wife passed away a few years ago so
maybe we should get these two together.  Later, we can get them enrolled
into the NASA astronaut program...  I once had a beautiful co-worker from
the former East Germany and she was convinced that dwarfs had smaller brains
and were generally the intellectual inferiors of "full-sized" people. LOL
It was hard to disagree with a woman who was so physically stunning that
looking at her was like staring into the sun.  But beauty does not always
come with common sense and intellectual curiosity.

I just don't like the idea of genetically engineered astronauts/space
colonists who are designed from birth to be on the very small side.  If the
idea of "little person" astronauts caught on I could see genetic engineering
being used to create the next generation of space explorers and colonists.
And then we might develop a schism between the big people of Earth and the
little folks of space.  A war could break out and the little people might
win and then become our cruel overlords (taunting us constantly with, "how
is the weather up there?" jokes...).  It all sounds like the plot to some
1950's science fiction novel (but in fairly recent SF they show extremely
tall and slender humans living in space).  In the sf classic, "Starship
Haiku," by S.P. Somtow, the author shows a future human society where
everyone has been reduced in size by genetic engineering in an effort to
relieve the strain on available resources.  It's a fun read (Somtow is a
very talented writer).

I think America and the rest of the world likes to see their astronauts
being full-sized, despite the extra costs involved.  But for good measure we
could certainly have one or two Mars mission crew members, etc., who are
little people.  Mike Meyers proved in his Austin Powers films that dwarves
are still very beloved in the popular culture.  NASA is definitely
interested in having good public relations and very lovable astronauts the
public will root for during a long space mission is a great idea.

Growing up in Alaska, I knew fairly well two different guys who were little
people.  They were smart, kind-hearted, and hard-working men who had a
"can-do" attitude.  I say it is time for a little person astronaut!  Hey,
Spike, let's start an organization!

John Grigg  : )
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From jonkc at att.net  Thu Apr 10 17:31:40 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:31:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>

"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> I just finished working out the numbers for using 200 times reusable
> rockets about twice the size of a Saturn V.  To my surprise the energy
> payback works out to 15 days and it takes 3 power sats to provide the
> propellants.

That is a perfect example of a statistic that may be true but is totally
irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost to get into
geosynchronous orbit. Right now just the launch costs would be close
to a trillion dollars per satellite, that's just to put it in the proper 
place, and that's not counting on the fact that then you've still got to
actually build the thing. You're going to have to figure out a way that 
is one hell of a lot cheaper than that and I don't see how ground 
launch from Earth can do it.

And just how "reusable" is this giant rocket going to be? Are you going to
carry a heavy heat shield all the way up to geosynchronous orbit and then
carry it all the way back down to earth again? Maybe I just get paranoid
when I hear the word "reusable"; the Space Shuttle was originally
supposed to be reusable every 2 weeks but that turned into a joke.

 John K Clark






From jef at jefallbright.net  Thu Apr 10 14:54:28 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:54:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)
In-Reply-To: <889128.18948.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <889128.18948.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804100754g3e0ca830x41671658012484e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:07 AM, Michael Miller <ain_ani at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been thinking more about this, and I think there is quite a deep
> misunderstanding between us that reflects a comment someone else made a
> while back - you're talking about ontology, whereas I'm talking about
> epistemology. This is why I keep trying to shake off the
> 'realist-antirealist' boxes, because they're irrelevant to what I'm talking
> about.

[Jumping back into this sandbox for just a moment.]

Michael, you're making a very important point -- crucial to
increasingly effective reasoning involving issues of meaning (value)
-- but your thinking strikes me as lacking an additional layer that
makes the difference between purely philosophical navel-gazing and
pragmatic modeling as a basis for effective decision-making.  Put
[too] simply, it is essential that while every agent's model of
"reality" is entirely subjective, this in no way entails
arbitrariness.  A metaphor that works for me is that we (as subjective
agents) are like the leaves of a tree of increasing possibility
connected by branches of increasing probability.  The root of that
tree represents the "reality" that we can never know.

To grasp this is to have a pragmatic (rather than "True")
understanding of the is/ought problem, and the crucial basis for
increasing agreement as to what must be considered increasingly
"right" or "moral" as we model the branches of that increasingly
objective tree supporting our increasing subjective explorations of
possibility-space.

Apologies in advance for what might appear to be excessively abstract.
 For the record, I abhor vague mysticism, relativism (in the strong
sense), and postmodernist mental masturbation.  So, you can infer that
I mean something other than what might appear to fit such categories.
It's just that this medium of discussion is miserably poor for
conveying complex contexts.

    "The purpose of abstracting is not to be vague,
     but to create a new semantic level in which one
     can be absolutely precise."

     - Edsger W. Dijkstra, _The Humble Programmer_

- Jef


From jef at jefallbright.net  Thu Apr 10 18:10:58 2008
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:10:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Metcalfe's Law is Wrong
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740804101110p1330fc00x9e5f8bad1540534@mail.gmail.com>

A particularly lucid article on characterizing growth value of
networks.  In particular, it argues against the n^2 of Metcalfe's Law
(which fueled much of the overheated Internet hype of the late '90s )
in favor of n log(n) which, like Zipf's Law, better characterizes the
"long tail" distribution we see in networks of nodes of unequal
influence.

<http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/4109>

- Jef


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 10 19:10:43 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:10:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410140328.024c3c88@satx.rr.com>

The common view on this list seems to be that such humans are fools 
suckered by primitive religious conviction that they'll get lots of 
sex after death (if they are not actually retarded or obedient 
children). The evidence in this piece suggests otherwise:

<http://indianmuslims.in/defying-the-myths-the-rational-educated-secular-prosperous-suicide-bomber/>

one link therefrom:

<http://www.smh.com.au/news/tv-reviews/suicide-bombers--a-psychological-investigation/2006/03/27/1143330977988.html>

A grab from the top link:

<Does Al-Qaeda conform to the myths?

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812238087/ref=nosim/0sil8>Marc 
Sageman's findings from biographical material from more than 400 
al-Qaida-affiliated terrorists (Sageman, Marc Terror Networks 
(Philadelphia, Penn.: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2004).

* The vast majority of terrorists in the sample came from solid 
middle class backgrounds, and its leadership came from the upper class.

* Only 13 percent of terrorists went to madrassahs, and this practice 
was specific to Southeast Asia, where two school masters, Abdullah 
Sungkar and Abu Bakar Baasyir, recruited their best students to form 
the backbone of the Jamaah Islamiyah, the Indonesian al-Qaida 
affiliate. This means that 87 percent of terrorists in the sample had 
a secular education.

* The vast majority of al-Qaida terrorists in the sample came from 
families with very moderate religious beliefs or a completely secular 
outlook. Indeed, 84 percent were radicalized in the West, rather than 
in their countries of origin. Most had come to the West to study, and 
at the time they had no intention of ever becoming terrorists. 
Another 8 percent consisted of Christian converts to Islam, who could 
not have been brainwashed into violence by their culture. [[ha!]]

* About two-thirds of the sample had attended college, a sharp 
contrast with the less than 10 percent of their original communities 
who did so. Despite their education, they did not know much about 
religion; however, many had studied engineering, which made them 
doubly dangerous. Their relative lack of religious education made 
them especially vulnerable to an extreme version of Islam, and they 
had the skills to build bombs.

* Some argue that lack of sexual opportunity for young Muslim men 
transforms their sexual frustration into suicide terrorism to reap 
the rewards of heaven, especially access to the 72 virgins. In fact, 
three-fourths of al-Qaida terrorists are married, and two-thirds of 
them have children (and many children at that). This apparent paradox 
is explained by the fact that they want many children to pursue the 
jihad, while they sacrifice themselves for their cause and comrades.

* About 60 percent of al-Qaida terrorists in the sample have 
professional or semi-professional occupations.

* There was a near total lack of mental disorders in the sample.

* Recruitment into al-Qaida was through friendship and kinship rather 
than dedicated recruiters.>


Damien Broderick 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 10 19:18:29 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:18:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207855208_928@s8.cableone.net>

At 09:07 AM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>Me:
> >>Fused Quartz, it can do  5 x 10^7 volts/mil.
>
>"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
> > Can you cite the source for this remarkable number?
>
>I too thought the number was remarkable, it was larger than even I thought
>it would be so I decided I wouldn't use it unless I could find 3 independent
>references to it, I could. See:
>
>http://www.proscitech.com/cataloguex/get_notes.asp?fusedquartz    or
>
>http://www.mtixtl.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=591  or
>
>http://www.qtubing.com/index/tech_data

All three of these sites also express the breakdown strength as 5 x 
10 exp 7/meter in the next column.  Since there are about 40,000 
mills in a meter, the correct number is about 1250 volts/mil, which 
is more believable.  It's better than rubber but not that much.  The 
sites all seem to have the same error.  Point this out to the web 
masters if you want to do a good deed.

>By the way, I found one reference that said Muscovite Mica could do even
>better but I couldn't find any conformation so I can't swear to it.
>
>Me:
> >> I don't know how much a power satellite would weigh
>
>You:
> >Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000
> >metric tons for 5 GW.
>
>That figure is indeed very easy to look up but it is much less easy to have
>any confidence in it. Even with mundane things like civilian airliners  the
>early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually proves
>to be far too optimistic,

Do you have a cite for this statement?

Keith



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 10 20:04:17 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:04:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207857956_1293@S4.cableone.net>

At 10:31 AM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>"Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>
> > I just finished working out the numbers for using 200 times reusable
> > rockets about twice the size of a Saturn V.  To my surprise the energy
> > payback works out to 15 days and it takes 3 power sats to provide the
> > propellants.
>
>That is a perfect example of a statistic

It's not a statistic.  I.e., it does not derive from statistical data.

>that may be true but is totally
>irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost to get into
>geosynchronous orbit.

That's true at present, but in a mature system it would not be 
true.  Ask the airlines what part of their costs is fuel.

>Right now just the launch costs would be close
>to a trillion dollars per satellite,

Which is why it isn't being done.

>that's just to put it in the proper
>place, and that's not counting on the fact that then you've still got to
>actually build the thing.

Big they are, complicated they are not.

>You're going to have to figure out a way that
>is one hell of a lot cheaper than that and I don't see how ground
>launch from Earth can do it.

http://www.ilr.tu-berlin.de/koelle/Neptun/NEP2015.pdf

>And just how "reusable" is this giant rocket going to be? Are you going to
>carry a heavy heat shield all the way up to geosynchronous orbit and then
>carry it all the way back down to earth again?

I guess they carry 39 tons of water that provides the heat shield 
cooling while they are coming back down, but I really don't know.

>Maybe I just get paranoid
>when I hear the word "reusable"; the Space Shuttle was originally
>supposed to be reusable every 2 weeks but that turned into a joke.

It's not impossible.  A private rocket flew twice in ten days or so.

Keith 



From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 10 21:15:53 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:15:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)
Message-ID: <834361.77325.qm@web31504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Jef, thanks for the criticism. I'm not 100% sure what it is you're saying, or to where precisely the critique is aimed. However, half of me wants to answer that it is indeed purely philosophical navel-gazing. That is largely what I'm interested in ;)

However the other half feels very tempted to respond thusly:  The attempt to find a full and developed understanding of the human condition - and especially one's own place within this - is necessarily the first step towards any kind of action. Pragmatism which is done without this first step having been correctly implemented will often lead to disastrous results. There are always assumptions behind any action, one of the philosopher's jobs is to bring those assumptions to light so they can be questioned. I definitely don't think that arbitrariness is part of the picture. I think the relocation of human consciousness within its domain of subjectivity (this word is becoming very overused and I fear is beginning to fail us, or at least me) is essential - the struggle for objectivity and the apparent desire to place 'minds' within an objective reality (rather than accepting the two as complementary poles of a single system) seems very dangerous and has lead
 to the belief that all of value can be described best by the scientific method.

I don't deny "reality", if this is your implication. I am not a solipsist. But, it is not here that the most important things happen. And neither is it in the individual mind. The most important arena is the point where minds meet and create the social strata, which is where meaning is generated, and our thoughts are conditioned by the interpersonal forces mediating between reality and the individual (because, none of us approach the world alone...we all exist within the sphere of culture which gives meaning to our thoughts).

But yes, point taken I think...this is one of the more abstract conversations I've had, but I still think how we go about forming our ideas of the world is of crucial importance to any kind of decision-making.

Mike

PS - Postmodernist mental masturbation. I quite like this. I think the pretend solidities of modernism needed to be challenged by a world-view slightly more fluid and dynamic. Mysticism only really succeeds when it ceases being vague and imbues a light bright enough to be guided by.

----- Original Message ----
From: Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:54:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood (explication)

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:07 AM, Michael Miller <ain_ani at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been thinking more about this, and I think there is quite a deep
> misunderstanding between us that reflects a comment someone else made a
> while back - you're talking about ontology, whereas I'm talking about
> epistemology. This is why I keep trying to shake off the
> 'realist-antirealist' boxes, because they're irrelevant to what I'm talking
> about.

[Jumping back into this sandbox for just a moment.]

Michael, you're making a very important point -- crucial to
increasingly effective reasoning involving issues of meaning (value)
-- but your thinking strikes me as lacking an additional layer that
makes the difference between purely philosophical navel-gazing and
pragmatic modeling as a basis for effective decision-making.  Put
[too] simply, it is essential that while every agent's model of
"reality" is entirely subjective, this in no way entails
arbitrariness.  A metaphor that works for me is that we (as subjective
agents) are like the leaves of a tree of increasing possibility
connected by branches of increasing probability.  The root of that
tree represents the "reality" that we can never know.

To grasp this is to have a pragmatic (rather than "True")
understanding of the is/ought problem, and the crucial basis for
increasing agreement as to what must be considered increasingly
"right" or "moral" as we model the branches of that increasingly
objective tree supporting our increasing subjective explorations of
possibility-space.

Apologies in advance for what might appear to be excessively abstract.
 For the record, I abhor vague mysticism, relativism (in the strong
sense), and postmodernist mental masturbation.  So, you can infer that
I mean something other than what might appear to fit such categories.
It's just that this medium of discussion is miserably poor for
conveying complex contexts.

    "The purpose of abstracting is not to be vague,
     but to create a new semantic level in which one
     can be absolutely precise."

     - Edsger W. Dijkstra, _The Humble Programmer_

- Jef
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




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From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 21:50:26 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:50:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 10 April 2008, John K Clark wrote:
> That is a perfect example of a statistic that may be true but is
> totally irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost
> to get into geosynchronous orbit. Right now just the launch costs
> would be close to a trillion dollars per satellite, that's just to
> put it in the proper place, and that's not counting on the fact that
> then you've still got to actually build the thing. You're going to
> have to figure out a way that is one hell of a lot cheaper than that
> and I don't see how ground launch from Earth can do it.

Please show me where those trillions of dollars would go.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Fri Apr 11 00:37:00 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:37:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
	<200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>

I've been following this thread for some time and have so far managed to 
fight off the urge to comment. But I hadn't yet seen any mention of 
protecting this trillion dollar behemoth from natural and unnatural 
disasters. micrometeorites that our atmosphere eats up could tear one of 
these to pieces. The chance is slim of course, but the target is larger 
than most satellites and when your one shot is worth that much money you 
would have to find ways to make those odds even better, not worse. Also, 
your rocket would have to been man-rated or better to provide that extra 
level of caution. How many successful test launches would you require of 
a new launch vehicle before you stick a 1 TRILLION dollar payload on it? 
How much more will these test launches and additional developments cost? 
Wouldn't it make more sense to put hundreds or even thousands of much 
smaller satellites into orbit? Then the loss of one isn't so dramatic 
and you could use profits to bootstrap the project with much lower up 
front development costs.


Bryan Bishop wrote:
> On Thursday 10 April 2008, John K Clark wrote:
>   
>> That is a perfect example of a statistic that may be true but is
>> totally irrelevant; the fuel costs are a trivial aspect of the cost
>> to get into geosynchronous orbit. Right now just the launch costs
>> would be close to a trillion dollars per satellite, that's just to
>> put it in the proper place, and that's not counting on the fact that
>> then you've still got to actually build the thing. You're going to
>> have to figure out a way that is one hell of a lot cheaper than that
>> and I don't see how ground launch from Earth can do it.
>>     
>
> Please show me where those trillions of dollars would go.
>
> - Bryan
> ________________________________________
> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   
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From sentience at pobox.com  Fri Apr 11 00:46:36 2008
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:46:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Metcalfe's Law is Wrong
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740804101110p1330fc00x9e5f8bad1540534@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f7bfe5740804101110p1330fc00x9e5f8bad1540534@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47FEB4EC.6070608@pobox.com>

Jef Allbright wrote:
> A particularly lucid article on characterizing growth value of
> networks.  In particular, it argues against the n^2 of Metcalfe's Law
> (which fueled much of the overheated Internet hype of the late '90s )
> in favor of n log(n)

Boy does that sound righter than Metcalfe's Law.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 02:55:23 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:55:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001a01c89b30$c54ca850$e2f34d0c@MyComputer>
	<200804101650.26257.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>

At 05:37 PM 4/10/2008, you wrote:
>I've been following this thread for some time and have so far 
>managed to fight off the urge to comment. But I hadn't yet seen any 
>mention of protecting this trillion dollar behemoth from natural and 
>unnatural disasters. micrometeorites that our atmosphere eats up 
>could tear one of these to pieces. The chance is slim of course, but 
>the target is larger than most satellites

*Hugely* bigger.  One power sat would have more area than all the 
satellites that have been put up to date and getting hit by flying 
rocks is expected to be an almost hourly thing.  Fortunately most of 
them are tiny and are not expected to cause much damage--unless they 
hit where high voltages are adjacent and then there will likely be a 
flashover.  The subject was studied in great detail back in the late 
1970s and the researches concluded it wasn't much of a 
problem--largely because the structure isn't under much stress.

The space elevator, if we get materials strong enough for that, is a 
much harder problem.  There has to be a way to recover from a cut 
cable and to complicate it, the cable is zipping by at 1000 mph.  If 
you have any good ideas, let me know.  Because all satellites below 
the counterweight hit the cable eventually it will take a massive and 
very expensive cleanup of the space junk.  You do get to use the junk 
you clean up as mass for the counterweight though.

>  and when your one shot is worth that much money you would have to 
> find ways to make those odds even better, not worse. Also, your 
> rocket would have to been man-rated or better to provide that extra 
> level of caution. How many successful test launches would you 
> require of a new launch vehicle before you stick a 1 TRILLION 
> dollar payload on it?

You never do.  Using rockets, each launch delivers 200 tons of 
material.  It takes 50 flights (at ten a day) to build one power sat.

>How much more will these test launches and additional developments 
>cost? Wouldn't it make more sense to put hundreds or even thousands 
>of much smaller satellites into orbit?

It's a geometry problem, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk that 
sets the size of the power sats.  They just are not practical in 
sizes much less than 5 GW.  Work backwards from 230W/square meter and 
you will get the transmitter and receiver sizes.  Still the point is 
well taken:  there is such a need for power that the project builds 
more than a thousand of them, 60 in the first year.

>Then the loss of one isn't so dramatic and you could use profits to 
>bootstrap the project with much lower up front development costs.

In fact, the income stream builds the vast majority of them.

The startup cost are between the cost of the Iraq war and the value 
of a year of oil production.

Keith 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 03:15:01 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:15:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 10 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
> You never do. ?Using rockets, each launch delivers 200 tons of
> material. ?It takes 50 flights (at ten a day) to build one power sat.

Geeze, if only there was, you know, stuff, that we could, like, use, 
that wasn't, like, on the surface of the planet. ;)

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 11 03:30:38 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:30:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410140328.024c3c88@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804110331.m3B3Us2h013229@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> Damien Broderick
> Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
> 
> The common view on this list seems to be that such humans are 
> fools suckered by primitive religious conviction that they'll 
> get lots of sex after death (if they are not actually 
> retarded or obedient children). The evidence in this piece 
> suggests otherwise:
> 
>
<http://indianmuslims.in/defying-the-myths-the-rational-educated-secular-pro
sperous-suicide-bomber/>

... Damien Broderick 




Damien I am puzzled by the apparent cognitive dissonance between the above
and this:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/10/terror.uk.ap/index.html?iref=
mpstoryview

Of course I haven't trusted CNN for some time.

spike



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 11 04:16:56 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:16:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
In-Reply-To: <200804110331.m3B3Us2h013229@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410140328.024c3c88@satx.rr.com>
	<200804110331.m3B3Us2h013229@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410231307.024733a8@satx.rr.com>

At 08:30 PM 4/10/2008 -0700, Spike wrote:


><http://indianmuslims.in/defying-the-myths-the-rational-educated-secular-pro
>sperous-suicide-bomber/>
>
>I am puzzled by the apparent cognitive dissonance between the above
>and this:
>
>http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/10/terror.uk.ap/index.html?iref=
>mpstoryview

What dissonance? The guy is quoted explicitly as saying:

<"This is revenge for the actions of the USA in the Muslim lands and 
their accomplices such as the British and the Jews," he says.>

But even so, these guys seem to be marginal copycats who failed to 
read the "Don't try this at home, kids" warning.

Damien Broderick 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 04:28:01 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:28:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/10/2008, Bryan wrote:
>On Thursday 10 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
> > You never do.  Using rockets, each launch delivers 200 tons of
> > material.  It takes 50 flights (at ten a day) to build one power sat.
>
>Geeze, if only there was, you know, stuff, that we could, like, use,
>that wasn't, like, on the surface of the planet. ;)

How well do I know this.  30 years ago Eric Drexler and I figure out 
how to use any sort of moon or asteroid rock for heat transfer fluid 
with only a small vibratory ball mill to process it.

We might be able to sell a rocket based power sat project to the 
bankers and bureaucrats, but not space based industry.  Sorry

Keith Henson 



From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Fri Apr 11 04:39:09 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:39:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Medical update on Gina 4/10/08
Message-ID: <F503D0613589448D83D1C4F6EA96039F@GinaSony>

Hello everyone, Today I have written an update on this new Multiple Sclerosis situation - what's happening, how things are going and what's to come etc. You can read it here: 
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2008/04/41008-overview-and-update.html

Kindest regards, 
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/


Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 11 05:10:31 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:10:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Let's Just Do It (was The L5 Society)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <070d01c89b92$638aa420$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Keith writes

> [John Clark writes]
> 
>>  It currently costs about $20,000 to put one kilogram into geosynchronous
>>  orbit, and no I can't give you a number, I don't know how much a power
>>  satellite would weigh except that it would be many many kilograms.
> 
> Easy to look up.  I am using 2kg/kW which works out to 10,000 metric
> tons for 5 GW.
> 
>>  It seems to me that for the idea to be practical a dramatically cheaper way
>>  needs to be found to put massive things in that orbit, and the only two
>>  ways I know of are space elevators or lunar industrialization. If neither
>>  of those can work then power satellites are Dead On Arrival.

Surely youse guys read the book "Project Orion" or its equivalents.
Larry Niven even, of course, in "Footfall" when the humans got
desperate, used the idea.  (A.E. Van Vogt was even earlier, it's
said, though I don't recall it from the book myself, with the idea
in his novel "Empire of the Atom".)

Keith believes that things will become *desperate*, and I doubt
if John would instinctively be against something as gung-ho as
Orion. 

So all in favor say "yay!".

Lee

P.S.  Yay!


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 11 05:53:52 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:53:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <169076.37511.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <071e01c89b98$b28516e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Michael writes

> Lee:
> 
>>Okay, but just for the record, yes, we often *perceive*
>>a similarity between two things, but we can conceive of
>>two things having similarity even when there are no
>>perceivers or observers about. But then, I forgot, we
>>are in fact in part debating the notion of a "realist" 
>>ontology. Suffice it to say here that I claim that there
>>can be *objective* similarity of structure, or isomorphism,
>>even in the absence of nearby intelligent life.
> 
> I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving
> what something looks like outside of perception.

I'm not really talking about perception *at all*.  You brought
it up.

> I stick to my guns that for there to be similarity (or ever
> definable qualities) of "somethings" you need to have a
> specific perspective from which you are looking at them.
> I don't think we can sensibly talk about how something
> appears when no one is looking at it.

I'm not interested in appearance either!  :-)   Don't you
think that there were G2 stars before there was any
life in our solar system?  (And, contra SETI, say not
within a billion light years?)  You really don't think
that it's possible for two things to be *intrinsically*
similar without anyone or anything observing or knowing
about it?  Surely you admit that carbon atoms in Andromeda
are pretty damned similar to carbon atoms in Jupiter, and
were long, long, before there might have been any observer
anywhere. "Appearance" is IMO entirely moot.

> ...there is no precise "Jupiter-object" in reality - it's a useful
> concept, and aliens may well articulate their experience of
> reality into a very similar concept...but there's no precise
> Jupiter out there, because reality doesn't have the kind of
> precisely delineated objects our language imputes.

But our language need not attempt (in fact it should *never*
attempt) precisely delineated objects (not, at least outside
mathematics).  Anyone who thinks that "1956 For Fairlane
4 Door Town Sedan Auto Trans with V8" precisely
delineates anything is deeply mistaken.  Korzybski seems
to have devoted the entire 1933 "Science and Sanity" to
depictions and explanations of levels of abstraction. The
great book by Weinberg "Levels of Knowing and Existence:
Studies in General Semantics" (1959) also said the important
part.

So when one of us says "Jupiter" we should not suppose him
to refer to some weird possibly very bogus concept of the
thing that he has.  If he were to talk about "manned voyages
to Jupiter" it would be decidedly insane (hence Korzybski's
Title "Science and Sanity") to take him to be referring to his
concept (who would want a manned voyage to his brain?).
He is referring to the unknown (in detail) thing that is *out
there*.  And you do too!  All the time!  Whenever you 
speak to others in daily life, you are trying to refer, to point,
to something outside your skin---except in weird philosophic
discussions where for reasons unknown to me, people 
suddenly think that realistic language is "naive" or something.

> The real problem is that the more precisely;y we try to
> define our words and concepts, the more slippery reality
> becomes.

OF COURSE!    That's why I have said over and over that
we ought to avoid *defining* things, especially trying to define
them precisely, and certain avoid also (as Korzybski said 
again and again) Aristotelian definitions.

> But, this discussion of Jupiter I think is taking us further and
> further away from the initial issue, which was of Napoleon -
> and I think it's here that my point is much more useful
> (to be frank, in regards to something like Jupiter it's really
> rather a trivial point). What have you to say in this regard?

Likewise, "Napoleon" should refer to the now quite dead
man born in 1769 on Corsica who ruled France from 1795
to 1815 and who died on St. Helena in 1821.

*That* is what the term "Napoleon" should refer to. Not 
anyone's concept.  Not any perception.  Not any appearance.
Of course, no knowledge is certain;  "all knowledge is 
conjectural", as the good philosophers who adopt PCR 
know very well.  (See Bartley, PCR.)

>>The problem is,
>>"where do we draw the boundary between us who are observing
>>and what is 'out there'?".  A fairly standard way of doing that is
>>to suppose that what is outside our skins is "out there", and anything
>>on the other side of that boundary is us. So I am *not* supposing
>>that I do not include my retina, for example. I'm a whole system.
>>The whole system looks out there and sees things. It's the natural
>>way we speak, and we realists, at least, find nothing fundamentally
>>wrong with it.  (Of *course* we know the whole train of events
>>that leads from objects to photons to images to retinas to V1 
>>(nerve firings) that lead to more nerve firings that lead to... it's
>>nerve firings all the way down!    :-)
> 
> I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and
> Jupiter become part of a single system.

That really is pure nonsense. There are some very unhelpful results
in quantum mechanics that should not be taken too literally (just
as Einstein's relativity theory has been grossly misused). Jupiter
is located at no less than 4 astronomical units from Earth, and it
is impossible for you and Jupiter to compose any part of a larger
system when you happen to glance at it. It's not *useful* in any
way to suppose that they do. There is no physics in which it is
useful to consider you being a single system (again, outside an
extremely narrow interpretation of QM). This is the sort of 
"insanity" that really used to upset Korzybski so bad---now me,
I'm not so upset, because I realize that Sapir-Whorf was wrong
and words don't really have as much influence on our actions as
those guys thought. In other words, you,  Michael go about all
day long being quite sane and making perfect sense, except when
(IMO) you get into discussions like this and start saying things
about Napoleon or Jupiter that 99% of people would think is
crazy.

> While admitting the utility of it, I disagree with the skin-barrier
> of identity (this is probably clear by now). I don't claim to
> draw any distinct boundaries between the observer and
> observed. (This is also probably by now apparent)

There are indeed other times when the skin-barrier isn't
the appropriate boundary to use.  For example, what
is the boundary between child and adult? Several 
observations:

1.  It is *wrong* to say that there are no such things
     as children or adults just because we have no
     precise dividing line between them
2.  For some purposes, it is advantageous to force
     a line at age 18.  For other purposes, a line is
     drawn at 21.  The  Marines, I think, draw the
     line at 17.  And so on.
3.  We know what *the reality* is. We understand
     that age lies on a continuum. We must resist the
     temptation to try to *define* anything here.

You don't draw any distinct "boundary between the
observer and observed"?   Never?  I would venture
that you do *indeed* draw such a boundary in 99%
of your waking life. If you did not act as though you
were drawing such a boundary, you'd be killed in
traffic right off.  You wouldn't be able to tell yourself
apart from what you were reading. Or emailing. Surely
you admit that a *huge* part of the time you do draw
such a boundary. 

>>I think that that is very much doubtful. We'll find that the
>>more successful "higher" Earth animals also make the
>>same segregations we do.  And I contend that that is
>>not mere coincidence, that even space aliens would
>>recognize glass (say volcanic "glass") as separate from,
>>say, rivers and trees. There *really is* a certain amount
>>of structure out there in the world that any evolutionarily 
>>derived being that successfully makes its way in the
>>world will recognize.
> 
>>I guess that that is *not* the case. That the aliens would
>>be rather similar to us in how they broke the world up.
> 
> Okay. I'll wait for you to offer either an argument or some
> evidence for why this is the case ;) 

They'll have to break up the solar system somewhat like we
do or else they'll crash on the hard spheres (planets) and
won't be able to use the thing we call "the sun" unless they
also are able to make an internal map of it in whatever
passes for their nervous systems.  They jolly well will believe
it to be something outside their craft(s) and outside the
boundaries of whatever they are that came to our solar
system. (Unless they start talking about epistemology and
ontology---then they might be really confused?  who knows?)

>>We progress best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>>to what is objective.
> 
> Can you offer a means for doing this?

Yes.  (1) avoid philosophy classes (2) stick to science and
especially to common sense (3) avoid fancy navel studying
involving "subjectivity" "observer/observed" distinctions
(4) avoid reading about the philosophical implications of
relativity or quantum mechanics (5) try to refer to things
the same way a child (who has loads of common sense)
does, e.g., "there is a car", "there is a dog", etc.  (6)
Avoid referring to "perceptions of cars", "perceptions of
dogs", etc. (8) Avoid ever thinking about or mentioning
*qualia*, a total philosophic death-spiral if there ever was
one (9) avoid thinking about what consciousness "is" (the
dreaded "is"-of-identity that Korzybski and the general
semanticists so declaimed against)  (10) adopt whenever
possible the daily meanings of words and concepts, and
ask a bright twelve year old if something starts to sound 
confusing, how we should think about it,  and those are
just the first ten things I happened to think of.

>>where we appear to differ is that I think that
>>we evolved to *be* in accordance with a certain amount
>>of real structure already there "out there" in the universe. 
>>All of the "evolutionary epistemology" philosophy
>>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-evolutionary/
>>(or wikipedia) is grounded upon the idea that we evolve
>>to be in accord with our environment---which, yes, is
>>exactly what you are saying too. So:
> 
> Hmm, not necessarily. I'm saying we've developed a
> particular kind of awareness/conceptualisation which
> happens to have worked. The fact that everything in
> the "Earth" system has roughly the same kind of
> objective concept-structure would be pretty much
> determined by our evolutionary lineage, and our
> interdependent integration as a system.

Can't argue with that!  :-)

Lee



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 11 05:48:12 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:48:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide killers
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080410231307.024733a8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804110615.m3B6Eq6F008558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> Damien Broderick
> Subject: Re: [ExI] suicide killers

> >
>
>http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/10/terror.uk.ap/index.html?iref
=mpstoryview
> 
> What dissonance? The guy is quoted explicitly as saying:
> 
> <"This is revenge for the actions of the USA in the Muslim 
> lands and their accomplices such as the British and the 
> Jews," he says.> ...Damien Broderick 


Ja.  He lost me as soon as he uttered the comment "muslim lands."  Religions
do not own lands, people do.

spike









From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 11:13:35 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:13:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 5:28 AM, hkhenson wrote:
>  We might be able to sell a rocket based power sat project to the
>  bankers and bureaucrats, but not space based industry.  Sorry
>



The problem with multi trillion dollar projects is that they rapidly
turn into pork barrel boondoggles. Everybody wants their share of the
loot. A project like this won't be run by half a dozen geek
enthusiasts. It will be run by huge bureacracies spread across every
state, all trying to get more funds funnelled to their part of the
organisation.

How about using these vast sums of money to pay 75% of the cost of
installing domestic solar power systems and windmills?  PV systems are
improving year on year and the return on investment is also improving.
As more PV systems get installed, the requirement for more power
stations gradually winds down.

Sure, it's boring. But it is known technology that works now. Just do it!


BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 11:54:49 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:54:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804110654.50061.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 11 April 2008, BillK wrote:
> The problem with multi trillion dollar projects is that they rapidly
> turn into pork barrel boondoggles. Everybody wants their share of the
> loot. A project like this won't be run by half a dozen geek
> enthusiasts. It will be run by huge bureacracies spread across every
> state, all trying to get more funds funnelled to their part of the
> organisation.

See the book:
? _The Seven Laws of Money_ -- Michael Phillips
? http://seeingmoney.org/SevenLaws.htm
Example:

"THE FIRST LAW-- DO IT!
Money will come when you are doing the right thing. Focus on the passion 
rather than the money. Worry about your ability to do it and your 
competence to do it, but certainly do not worry about the money. There 
will always be obstacles. It is the energy generated by the commitment 
to an idea that propels a project toward success. Do not integrate your 
own need to make a living with the needs of a project. "

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 13:13:59 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:13:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804110654.50061.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804110654.50061.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804110613w391722fbi173f70624a2f8ece@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:
>  See the book:
>    _The Seven Laws of Money_ -- Michael Phillips
>    http://seeingmoney.org/SevenLaws.htm
>  Example:
>
>  "THE FIRST LAW-- DO IT!
>  Money will come when you are doing the right thing. Focus on the passion
>  rather than the money. Worry about your ability to do it and your
>  competence to do it, but certainly do not worry about the money. There
>  will always be obstacles. It is the energy generated by the commitment
>  to an idea that propels a project toward success. Do not integrate your
>  own need to make a living with the needs of a project. "
>


Heh!  :)   I never took you for a hippy, Bryan!   :)

I suppose it's not too bad a book for the 70s culture.
Hang loose, do your own thing and make a budget..

But , like I said, a half a dozen really keen geeks won't get to run a
huge project like a space elevator.

For personal finance advice, try:
<http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2007/03/07/building-a-personal-finance-library-25-of-the-best-books-about-money/>


BillK


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 15:56:17 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:56:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>

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From jonkc at att.net  Fri Apr 11 17:17:14 2008
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:17:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com><1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net><00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer><1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net><002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer><1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net><001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer><1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net><001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer><d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com><001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207855208_928@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <004301c89bf8$3b2ed9e0$4def4d0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> All three of these sites also express the breakdown strength
> as 5 x 10 exp  7/meter in the next column.

Yes, for the second time in a week I have to admit that you're right and I'm
wrong. It's obvious (well, it's obvious now) that these websites were not
independent and were just copying each others error. Serves me right for
taking a remarkable claim posted to a website seriously, something I've
accused others of doing and then I go and do it myself.

Oh well, I'm not giving up, there must be a way for a power line to pass
through those critical 50 miles or so; Perhaps Silica aerogel would work,
it's supposed to be a pretty good electrical insulator but I couldn't find a
number so I don't know how good, but even if it's no better than air at sea
level it might do the job because it's the lightest solid known; in a vacuum
(it's 99.8% empty space) it weighs just  1 mg/cm^3, sea level air is about
1.2 mg/cm^3.

Or maybe you should just separate the conductors from the standard one
meter to 100 meters, or even a thousand for that short interval, or step
down the voltage. I refuse to believe the ionosphere is impenetrable.

It's not really related (probably not anyway) but in the April 3 2008 Nature
researchers announced they have discovered the opposite of a
superconductor, they found a perfect insulator. It doesn't mean it has an
infinite breakdown voltage but just as a superconductor can carry an
electric current forever this new super insulator can carry an electric
charge forever. The discoverers (Argonne, Novovsibirsk, Regensburg
and Bochum) think that someday superinsulators could have practical 
applications.

Me:
> the early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually
> proves to be far too optimistic

You:
> Do you have a cite for this statement?

Nope, nor do I think I need one. I think some things are in the category of
"generally recognized as true", things like the conservation of energy or
momentum or the optimistic spin promoters give their projects. In a few
very rare instances something in this category may turn out to be false,
but it is your job to prove it false not mine to prove it true.

  John K Clark








From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 17:38:17 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:38:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net> <47FEB2AC.1020507@insightbb.com>
	<1207882623_3344@s7.cableone.net>
	<200804102215.02829.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<1207888181_3931@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804111038r55bc54a8wb9b7f18230e5df96@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 4:56 PM, hkhenson wrote:
<snip>
>
>  Now I fully admit space based solar power isn't a very likely future.  Food
> riots, such as are about to start in several places, epidemics and wars are
> the probable program for the next few decades as world population falls
> dramatically.
>


I agree that space based solar power is unlikely.

Food riots, epidemics and wars will provide dramatic incentives to
improve the energy supply situation.

The West will continue to use oil, coal and natural gas for at least
the next ten to twenty years. New finds, reuse old fields, etc. Oil
supplies will continue OK, with possibly a few hiccups. The suppliers
have seen what happens when the West wants to secure oil supplies.

Rising energy prices will drive economy measures and the development
of alternatives.

Energy use is roughly 50 / 50 split between domestic and industrial.
So more and better nuclear power stations will be built.
Domestic measures include greater insulation, solar panel roofs, windmills, etc.
10% transportation fuel savings are easily achievable. More with research.
(China is making 30 million electric bikes and scooters each year).

Of course, the investment payback on many alternatives is presently
not sensible.
But when energy prices quadruple, very different rules prevail.

It won't be easy, and the western world will feel poorer for some
years. But the changeover from fossil fuels is doable once the
realization sinks in.



BillK


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Fri Apr 11 18:42:45 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:42:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blog essay on the complex systems problem
In-Reply-To: <009b01c89be9$3584f3d0$a08edb70$@com>
References: <e2c78480804100702h57343229g38424f2a90bda637@mail.gmail.com>
	<3cf171fe0804101648l25e2792ej6e0f9506312d368@mail.gmail.com>
	<009b01c89be9$3584f3d0$a08edb70$@com>
Message-ID: <47FFB125.2030901@lightlink.com>


I have just finished producing a blog post that describes the complex 
systems problem in what I hope will be a more accessible form than the 
paper that I wrote before.

I am gradually working up to newer topics, but I have to lay the 
groundwork by giving a definitive version of some of the ideas I have 
written about elsewhere.



Richard Loosemore






From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 19:53:37 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:53:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] why beautiful women tend to marry less attractive men
Message-ID: <2d6187670804111253u48e4d77dy17e0d3e869052ed4@mail.gmail.com>

Why beautiful women *supposedly* tend to marry less attractive men...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080410/sc_livescience/whybeautifulwomenmarrylessattractivemen

John
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From michaelanissimov at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 21:59:11 2008
From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:59:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
Message-ID: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>

What H+ technology do you care about the most?

http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720

Choices:

   - *Superintelligence*
   - Life Extension
   - Mind Uploading
   - Nanotechnology
   - Cybernetics
   - Other

-- 
Michael Anissimov
Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com
http://acceleratingfuture.com
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 11 22:15:29 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:15:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <004301c89bf8$3b2ed9e0$4def4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804060913t66aad56fxb8e4f3697dbae5c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207522738_7814@s8.cableone.net>
	<00d601c898cc$9d833070$11f04d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207592932_141@s7.cableone.net>
	<002c01c898f1$f951ff60$a2ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207606674_941@s6.cableone.net>
	<001701c8993c$46133310$7cf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207702364_3272@S1.cableone.net>
	<001201c89a68$79afcda0$ebf14d0c@MyComputer>
	<d1988d2d0804092343r565f9e1fvfd152aadd27c01bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<001e01c89b25$1aee01c0$bdee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<1207855208_928@s8.cableone.net>
	<004301c89bf8$3b2ed9e0$4def4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1207952230_481@s7.cableone.net>

At 10:17 AM 4/11/2008, you wrote:

snip

>Oh well, I'm not giving up, there must be a way for a power line to pass
>through those critical 50 miles or so;

"This should be contrasted with a vacuum 
interrupter suffering a leak, where the voltage 
strength of the gap falls to a minimum level of a 
few hundred volts in the glow discharge region of 
0.1?10 torr (13.3?133.2 pascals), recovering to 
around 30 kV/cm at atmospheric pressure."

Fault Current Management Guidebook
1010680
Technical Update, March 2006
EPRI Project Manager
R. Adapa

Hmm  http://www.luizmonteiro.com/StdAtm.aspx

63621 m for 0.1 torr
45888.6 m for 10 torr

17.7 km.

Knowing that aircraft electronics is pressurized 
for 10,000 meters, I think you might have more 
like 50 km to insulate on the low end.   The 
consequences of a pinhole in the insulation are 
that the conductor sputters away.  That's what 
happened to the failed shuttle experiment.

>Or maybe you should just separate the conductors from the standard one
>meter to 100 meters, or even a thousand for that short interval, or step
>down the voltage. I refuse to believe the ionosphere is impenetrable.

You don't get as much effect out of spacing as 
you would think.  It's the effect of more material in parallel.

snip

>Me:
> > the early design estimates of the weight of the finished product usually
> > proves to be far too optimistic
>
>You:
> > Do you have a cite for this statement?
>
>Nope, nor do I think I need one. I think some things are in the category of
>"generally recognized as true", things like the conservation of energy or
>momentum or the optimistic spin promoters give their projects. In a few
>very rare instances something in this category may turn out to be false,
>but it is your job to prove it false not mine to prove it true.

If this were the case for Boeing, their aircraft 
would never get off the ground.

In my experience as an engineer, my designs have 
always worked about as expected.  In any case, 
the consequences of not doing something really 
big in the light of energy problems are really 
awful to consider.  Even if power sats are 
recognized as a way out of the carbon and energy 
problems there are going to be some dire times 
before they can be brought on line.

Keith 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 22:35:57 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:35:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Scientists predict rise of the nanobots advanced ai
	technology by 2029
Message-ID: <200804111735.58083.kanzure@gmail.com>

Spence,

I am a little disappointed--- you guys could have asked me to set up an 
interview with Ray. Additionally, there's a number of important, 
interesting contributors to the posthuman concept here in Austin that I 
visit with monthly to discuss the technological and social 
implementation of these ideas. Maybe emphasizing the local aspects of 
it would be more relevant to a high school newspaper, if at all. That 
being said, I think there are some corrections that should be made.

I am also forwarding this message over to some transhumanist mailing 
lists for further discussion if you'd like to join in.

Scientists Predict Rise of the Nanobots Advanced AI Technology by 2029
by Lauren Williams
Editor-in-Chief

The scientists who are predicting this include Fretias, Drexler, Merkle, 
but to my knowledge Kurzweil isn't actually directly participating in 
the science/tech, he's the The Singularity is Near guy. I have a copy 
of his 2005 book if you are interested. And I have a video of one of 
Fretias' presentations at Alcor (the cryonic suspension organization in 
Arizona). http://alcor.org/

> Current advances in nanotechnology have scientists believing that by 

Not really - only a very small minority. Wish it was more. :)

> the year 2029, computers will be as smart as humans, and that small 
> robots called nanobots will be implanted into human brains and will 
> help make humans smarter and healthier.   

Perhaps. But the problem with portraying it like this is that it's fear 
mongering. People don't need to be afraid of this technology: nobody is 
going to run around inserting these things into people who don't want 
it.

> "We're already a human machine civilization, we use our technology to
> expand our physical and mental horizons and this will be a further 
> extension of that," inventor and futurist Raymond Kurzweil said.  

> Nanobots are predicted to enter brains through capillaries and 

It's whatever we design them to do.

> interact with biological neurons. Variations of interactions are 
> thought to bring about positive responses, such as strengthening of 
> the immune system and stimulation of portions of the brain that deal 
> with intelligence and memory. Another hope for great thinkers is the 
> eradication of disease through nanotechnology.

Only some diseases. The problem is that we are not able to tell when one 
thing is a disease and another thing isn't, so we need to be careful 
and do very specific molecular sensors.

> While there are a number of different factors that could prevent this 
> utopia from becoming a reality, one cannot deny that this generation 

Nothing about utopia here.

> is 21 years away from a cyber revolution and this is one of the 
> greatest technological advances of our time; the first step to 
> becoming a machine automated society.    

Please check out the relevant websites:
http://transhumanism.org/
http://kurzweilai.net/
http://lifeboat.com/
http://alcor.org/
http://imminst.org/
and many others (just ask- I have thousands of bookmarks)

Also, on my website I run the transhumanist technical roadmap group, we 
specialize in transhumanist technologies, such as self-replicating 
machines (nanobots but not necessarily nano), brain implants, genetic 
engineering, do-it-yourself synthetic biology, and it's all open 
source / free. For example, here's the website for the biohacking 
project where you can download the files *right now* to get started:

http://biohack.sf.net/
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 23:10:58 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:10:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200804111810.58169.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Friday 11 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
>  Or around 900 power sats, 15 years of production at 60 a year. Now I
>  fully admit space based solar power isn't a very likely future.?

Sorry Keith, I just don't see how that's much of a problem, especially 
if we solve the self-replicating machine problem (kinematic 
self-replicators, or even just n^2 tech, not necessarily 2^n). Call 
this the powersat bootstrap scenario: we launch once and only once, 
everything else is done in the sky. Actually, there might be more than 
one launch due to various predictions of failure due to solar 
radiation, micrometeorites, etc.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Apr 12 03:05:04 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:05:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bin Laden's background
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>

Crashed planes and family members... hmmm... J. G. Ballard could have 
invented this guy.

<http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23524543-5001986,00.html>

Cameron Stewart, | April 12, 2008

THERE is a black sheep in most families but few can hold a candle to 
the bin Ladens.
While the scions of this wealthy Saudi Arabian dynasty cavort across 
the globe in corporate jets, chasing women and oil profits in equal 
measure, one of their siblings is thought to be hiding in a remote 
cave in central Asia and is the world's most wanted terrorist.

It is the ultimate family schism, but one which is often overlooked 
in the West's quest to understand the forces that shaped Osama bin 
Laden. According to Pulitzer Prize-winning author Steve Coll, this is 
largely because the bin Laden family and the Saudi royals have tried 
hard to safeguard the family's colourful history.

Coll has sought to unlock the secrets of the bin Laden dynasty and 
shed light on the more personal aspects of Osama's life.

"After September 11, it became commonplace to trace the sources of 
Osama's radicalism to the Islamic political revival that swept the 
Middle East after 1979 and also to his experiences as a jihad fighter 
and organiser during the anti-Soviet Afghan war," writes Coll in his 
new book, The Bin Ladens: The Story of a Family and itsFortune.

"These were crucial influences on him, but to focus on them 
exclusively is to risk passing over the complexity of Osama's 
relationship with his family and his country, the sources of 
attraction and repulsion these ties created in his life, and their 
influence on his character and ideas."

Coll reveals how the young Osama found himself caught between two 
worlds - growing up amid a wealthy family that embraced the excesses 
of Western-style capitalism - and his own religious studies, which 
preached the polar opposite. What's more, Osama grew up in a family 
that embraced, commercially and culturally, the "infidel enemy", the US.

"Until Osama announced himself as an international terrorist, his 
family was much more heavily invested in the US than has generally 
been understood," writes Coll. "His brothers and sisters owned 
American shopping centres, apartment complexes, condominiums, luxury 
estates, privatised prisons in Massachusetts, corporate stocks, an 
airport and much else.

"They attended American universities, maintained friendships and 
business partnerships with Americans, and sought American passports 
for their children.

"They financed Hollywood movies, traded thoroughbred horses with 
country singer Kenny Rogers, and negotiated real estate deals with 
Donald Trump.

"In both a literal and a cultural sense, the bin Laden family owned 
an impressive share of the America upon which Osama declared war."

To explain how this occurred, Coll goes back to Osama's father, a 
young illiterate Yemeni called Mohammed bin Laden.

Mohammed was in his late 20s and blind in one eye when he moved from 
Yemen to Saudi Arabia and worked as a bricklayer at a time when the 
Saudi oil boom was beginning.

He was soon recognised for his organisational skills, and within a 
few years he had started a construction business.

The fast-rising bin Laden patriarch assiduously cultivated the Saudi 
royal family, winning key building contracts that would underpin the 
family fortune. As his wealth grew, so did his appetite for women - a 
lust that would infect the dynasty, including Osama.

Mohammed gathered wives at whim, marrying at least nine times between 
1943 and 1953 and fathering 54 children from numerous partners. Seven 
of his children were delivered in 1958 alone, one of which was Osama, 
whose mother was a 15-year-old Syrian who split with his father soon 
afterwards.

Mohammed was religious, impressing on his children the rituals and 
glory of Islam. But he was not an extremist. "The boys knew their 
father as a distant, stern, even regal figure," writes Coll. "Bin 
Laden placed a heavy emphasis on frugality, work, religious piety and 
self-reliance."

When Osama was seven, his father died in a plane crash, a loss that 
deeply hurt the young boy. "He was affected by the death of his 
father, he was very solitary," recalls Suleiman al-Kateb, a woman 
from his village.

Osama idolised his father and saw him as a role model. He was told 
that his father died as a result of a mistake by an American pilot.

"Osama absorbed the idea that his father was not a person who sits 
down behind a desk and gives orders. Rather, Mohammed bin Laden 
worked with his own hands in the desert, offering direct leadership 
to his ethnically diverse employees. This, of course, would become 
Osama's style of leadership as well."

Mohammed's death left control of the family business in the hands of 
his eldest son, Salem.

His wealth also meant that each of his children, including Osama, was 
left a substantial sum of money. Salem and Mohammed's many other sons 
were not imbued with their father's notions of Islamic frugality, and 
quickly embraced Western tastes, from fashionable clothes to 
expensive cars and aeroplanes.

The odd one out was Osama. He was a shy and polite boy who showed no 
obvious penchant for material possessions. "Relatives remember Osama 
as calm and extremely quiet, almost to the point of timidity. He 
preferred to be alone," writes Coll. He lived separately from his 
half-brothers and with his mother and step-father, but was very much 
considered a part of the bin Laden family and business.

He was by all accounts an average student, but during his teens Osama 
began to embrace religious instruction and moved into a Muslim 
brotherhood group that espoused traditional fundamentalist Muslim values.

"Osama and his group openly adopted the styles and convictions of 
teenage Islamic activists. They let their young beards grow, 
shortened their trouser legs and lectured or debated other students 
about the urgent need to restore pure Islamic law across the Arab world."

Outside of religion, Osama was passionate about outdoor activities 
such as swimming, hunting and horse riding, and he had a weakness for 
action movies and westerns.

"He seemed particularly drawn to teachings that a righteous Muslim 
should imitate the dress and customs that prevailed during the 
prophet's lifetime."

By the time he was 17, Osama was "notably attracted to girls" and 
decided to marry so he could have legitimate sex. He married his 
first cousin, Najwa, and she soon gave birth to a son, the first of 
at least 23 children from different wives. "The marriage bed seems 
only to have sharpened Osama's conviction that a righteous Muslim man 
should not cast his eyes even in passing on women other than his 
legal wives and mother. He did not permit his wife to meet strangers. 
He averted his eyes from the family maid. When he made social calls 
on his brothers he would back away and cover his eyes if an unveiled 
woman opened the door."

He banned most television and music and would not let his children 
drink out of a straw because these had been unknown in the prophet's lifetime.

"His only conspicuous pleasures were sex, cars, work and the outdoors."

Despite this, Coll says there is not much evidence that Osama was 
especially political during his teenage years.

Until at least 1979 there was "hardly any evidence that Osama was 
willing to take significant personal risks in the name of rebellion."

Yet at the same time as Osama embraced hardline Islam, his many 
relatives were doing precisely the opposite.

As head of the family business, Salem bin Laden embraced America, 
using it to accumulate cars and consumer goods for the Saudi royals.

He sent home 5000 cases of Tabasco sauce because he liked the taste, 
and even shipped hundreds of American cactuses and other desert 
plants back to Saudi Arabia.

The US also became a place of parties and excessive indulgence for 
the bin Ladens, who frequented Las Vegas and its Roman-themed casino 
Caesar's Palace.

"America became a place for singing, flying and, above all, 
shopping." Despite this, the increasingly disparate secular and 
religious wings of the sprawling bin Laden family held together.

The frugal fundamentalist Osama maintained a close relationship with 
his jetsetting family and accepted his share of the profits of the 
family business regardless of how and where these were generated. In 
the early 1980s, Salem bin Laden sent Osama to Pakistan to oversee 
the distribution of funding to the Afghan resistance, which was 
fighting the Soviet invaders.

By dispatching Osama, the bin Ladens were supporting the Saudi 
Government's clandestine foreign policy of helping the Islamic resistance.

It proved to be the beginning of the end of the family unit.

Osama revelled in his role. He soon moved into supplying arms to the 
Afghan rebels, the mujaheddin, and gained a taste for Islamic-style 
armed resistance. With Salem providing substantial financial backing, 
Osama soon became a hero to the mujaheddin.

The bin Ladens used publicists and the media to market Osama, 
promoting him as a fearless rich man who lived among the poor and who 
was willing to sacrifice everything for his religion.

Salem bin Laden did much to make Osama's reputation, and when he died 
in a plane crash in 1988 Osama was deeply affected, overlooking his 
half-brother's hedonistic ways.

When Osama returned to Saudi Arabia in late 1989 he saw himself as a 
international guerilla leader who worked in the service of his king.

But within a year he fell out with the royal family over its plans to 
employ American-led troops in a war to oust Saddam Hussein's Iraqi 
forces from Kuwait.

Disgusted, Osama moved to Sudan in 1991. He also became disappointed 
in his family, especially its new head, Bakr bin Laden, who refused 
to criticise the Saudi royals, whose patronage was so important to 
the family business.

It was not until 1993, when a bomb went off in the World Trade 
Centre, killing six people, that the international media began to 
focus on Osama's financing of Islamic resistance. He had become a 
public embarrassment to the Saudi royals, who publicly disowned him 
and pressured the bin Laden family to do likewise. The family agreed, 
cutting Osama from the business and publicly repudiating him.

By this time Osama's fledgling al-Qa'ida was flourishing, with groups 
of jihad fighters sent to Somalia, Yemen, Bosnia, Libya and 
Tajikistan, among other places.

Osama spent much of his time in Sudan penning long essays expressing 
fury at Saudi Arabia, which he claimed was waging a war against Islam.

In 1996, under pressure from the US, Sudan expelled Osama and he 
moved with his family to Afghanistan. Once there he became 
increasingly preoccupied with the US, reading books about America, 
including long tomes on Washington's foreign and defence policy 
towards Saudi Arabia and the Middle East.

One of his former wives says he became increasingly quiet and 
withdrawn. There were periods when he "did not like anyone to talk to 
him" and that he "used to sit and think for a long time and sleep very late".

At the same time he craved connections with the outside world, 
placing hundreds of calls to terror cell leaders and financiers 
across the world. It was these phone calls that would implicate Osama 
in the bomb attacks on US embassies in east Africa in August 1998, 
which killed 225 people. Those attacks, and the retaliatory US 
missile strike against Osama's camps several weeks later, gave the 
terrorist leader an instant global profile.

The bin Laden family was both stunned and embarrassed by Osama's 
rapid descent into terrorism. His brothers worried about the impact 
on the family business and about the shame it brought to the family name.

Family members agreed to help US authorities find Osama, but said 
they had no idea where he was. In the US, the dozens of bin Ladens 
living there laid low. But far worse was to come. When the terror 
attacks of September 11 occurred, the family knew it had to flee the 
US. Days after the attacks, a chartered 727 criss-crossed America 
picking up dozens of bin Ladens and flying them back to their homeland.

The family publicly denounced Osama once again, but also found that 
he had won a cult following among many in Saudi Arabia.

The 9/11 attacks directly hurt family business interests in the US, 
where the bin Ladens were abandoned by universities and corporations 
that had courted them in the past. But the empire has since recovered 
and is now a thriving multi-billion-dollar global enterprise.

Osama's brothers and sisters seem surprised, puzzled and embarrassed 
by their half-brother and at what he has become. They have repudiated 
him but have rarely expressed open anger. Similarly, Osama has 
refused to condemn his own siblings, despite that they embrace much 
of what the terrorist leader despises.

Writes Coll: "(Osama) has never denounced or openly repudiated his 
own family, and he has explained their occasional statements 
repudiating him as merely the product of heavy pressure brought to 
bear by the Saudi Government."

Osama, the black sheep of the bin Ladens, has not completely 
abandoned his flock.



From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 03:26:03 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:26:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Longevity Dividend media piece
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804112026laa2468egebd58675a5f58499@mail.gmail.com>

I am going to get a teensy weensy bit of practice transferring the
lifecourse to a tiny audience of a small local newspaper.

A series of 10 - 300 word piece entitled "living healthier and longer"

Start time will be 3-5 weeks after each longevity dividend paper.

The focus will be to examine the week's paper in the perspective of people
from Saskatchewan, Canada.

No city papers have bit so far.

Morris Johnson

I requested all the reading material on the texts list but nothing has
arrived to date.
I might end up going to the city big box book store to buy one or 2.



-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net, arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 04:05:07 2008
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:05:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] membership page seems to not work
Message-ID: <61c8738e0804112105q60eed923nfa263fa0bbc3a30b@mail.gmail.com>

James:

the word one has to copy into the box is non-existant so the site refuses to
process new memberships
at   http://ieet.org/index.php/forums


Morris Johnson
-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net, arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Transhumanism ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Francis Fukuyama,
June 2005
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Apr 12 05:22:23 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:22:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The L5 Society ( was: EP and Peak oil.)
In-Reply-To: <200804111810.58169.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <1206895587_26925@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0804110413l28651ce4rfaaf2eafe8e0077@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207929482_1079@S4.cableone.net>
	<200804111810.58169.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207977846_207@s7.cableone.net>

At 04:10 PM 4/11/2008, Bryan wrote:
>On Friday 11 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:

> >  Or around 900 power sats, 15 years of production at 60 a year. Now I
> >  fully admit space based solar power isn't a very likely future.

>Sorry Keith, I just don't see how that's much of a problem, especially if we
>solve the self-replicating machine problem (kinematic self-replicators, or
>even just n^2 tech, not necessarily 2^n). Call this the powersat bootstrap
>scenario: we launch once and only once, everything else is done in the sky.

>Actually, there might be more than one launch due to various predictions of
>failure due to solar radiation, micrometeorites, etc. - Bryan

I have no doubts that humans or whatever we turn into can eventually 
do this.  But how sure are you that it will happen before several 
billion people die of starvation?  Or do you care?  It's hard to work 
up a lot of caring for people who have bred themselves into a nasty 
dead end.  But there is little doubt in my mind that massive problems 
on the far side of the globe are going to generate impacts here.

Like wars and acts of nuclear terrorism.

Keith






From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Apr 12 12:27:18 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:27:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <mailman.69.1207893544.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.69.1207893544.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4800AAA6.5070501@lineone.net>

John Grigg wrote:

 > A big part of the discrepancy here is that this former Oxford scholar
 > has evidently horrific emotional/self-esteem problems that emerged in 
 > way that pushed her toward self-degradation and self-destruction. 
She > was not a fairly "normal" attractive young woman trying to pay for
 > college by discreetly engaging in high-end prostitution "on the 
side."  > This was an extremely psychologically messed up girl who was 
driven to > degrade herself.
 > Sadly, she is hardly alone in doing these sort of things (and though 
I > don't know the full details) and I tend to feel really sorry for her
 > former husband.  I bet she put him through hell.

Funnily enough, i was just reading about this girl.

My impression is that she is definitely not messed-up, and has not been 
driven to 'degrade herself' (do you regard prostitution, per se, to be a 
degrading career?).

On the contrary, she claims to be 'very happy' with her career choice, 
and has high self-esteem. She says that she has an amicable relationship 
with her ex-husband.

She was 'hot-housed' by her parents, and entered Oxford University at 
13, studying Maths. It was when her father started talking about an 
arranged marriage that she ran away at the age of 15. She says "I felt 
very independent and wanted to be in control of my life". She stayed in 
hostels, then was taken into foster care. At 18 she met and later 
married a guy, but separated after 12 months. She then went to 
Manchester to study for a Masters degree in economics, and this was when 
she started doing escort work, to help pay off her debts.

Here are some more quotes from a recent magazine interview with her:

"I don't see it as a terrible thing. It's something I drifted into by 
chance. I never judged girls who worked as escorts and was always 
fascinated by it. There is this huge stigma attached to escorting but I 
don't see it like that"

"I'm still young and I can't decide on what I want to do in the future. 
My escorting work provides me with a fabulous life and I don't want to 
give it up just yet."

"I have a nice life - I don't want for anything and I'm in control. I 
haven't had much freedom in my life and I'm enjoying it."

Doesn't sound like someone with horrific emotional and self-esteem 
problems to me!
More like an extremely intelligent girl who's decided to take control of 
her own life and do what she wants to do. More power to her, I say.

ben zaiboc


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 12:37:50 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:37:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Made England Special?
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Tom wrote

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 2:24 PM
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight, Deregulating Stock Exchanges

> Lee wrote: "Is *every* society and *every*
> civilization composed of historical type human beings
> necessarily capable of self-regulation,
> self-government, and almost unrestrained capitalism?
> I ask that as a general sort of question which you and
> other readers may or may not wish to explore. I myself
> don't think so."
> 
> Well, historical type human beings are a diverse
> bunch, but they *could* take to self-regulation and
> self-government, and some form of market-based
> economy.

It would require a gradually changing mind-set for 
many people in many cultures. We even have to
start at home, because even most people in the 
most libertarian of states or nations just simply
don't understand the potential of free markets and
liberty. Nor have they any intuitions whatsoever
that wherever possible that's the direction societies
should move. 

But if I think about how long it would have taken
the ancient Romans, or the Yanomamo or Ache,
or even 19th century Japanese, it becomes clear
that not all societies are equally ready for democracy,
much less a highly libertarian form.

> Take my fine people, the British. Some people would
> like to have you believe that this blessed people were
> a Chosen People who developed the industrial
> revolution and built a large empire, and settled
> America to form a Nation guided by Providence,
> Manifest Destiny and other Wooly-Minded Concepts with
> Arbitrary Capitals. Some think there is something
> special that led the British and their English-speaking
> descendents to their place of prominence.

The book "Farewell to Alms" does a fine job of describing
what made England different. And between them, England
and Holland led the way to the modern world. A lot of it
could have come about accidentally because of the way
that power in the 13th century between the king and the
nobles happened to have gotten shared.

> I take the opposite view. If the violence-loving
> people from a bunch of rainy islands on the Northwest
> of Europe could overcome much bigger and more populous
> nations like France and Spain,

Many times they were saved from conquest by inhabiting
an island. In a very parallel way, the Japanese were permitted
by geography to work out what turned out to be a very 
powerful culture and country.

> and have their creole of Romantic and Germanic languages
> become one of the world's dominant languages, then there's
> hope for everybody. If we could do it, there's no reason any
> other culture/people/nation/arbitrary grouping of
> humanity couldn't achieve a great deal too.

Yes, in time.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 12:40:57 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:40:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Replacing Government Oversight,
	Deregulating Stock Exchanges
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07d101c89c9a$a76b68b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Tom also wrote

> Rafal wrote: "A prime example is Sarbanes-Oxley,
> which imposed huge costs that disproportionately
> afflict smaller businesses, and thus serve to limit the
> competition against entrenched large companies -
> exactly the companies that lobby the government
> and hire former SEC employees (the "revolving
> door" phenomenon)."

Rafal is right on target, as usual.

> Well Lee, global competition is providing an example
> of lighter market regulation. When Sarbanes-Oxley hit
> US business (as Rafal mentioned), some businesses
> based in both New York and London dropped their New
> York listing. A couple of years ago, it was widely
> trumpeted that London had overtaken New York as a
> global financial centre as it had a mix of US and
> European investment banks in a place with fairly light
> touch regulation by global standards.

Good news!

> In fact, the UK leads in low-regulation stock
> markets. To quote
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Investment_Market
>
> "The AIM has also started to become an international
> exchange, often due to its low-regulatory burden,
> especially in relation to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act
> (though only a quarter of AIM-listed companies would
> qualify to list on a U.S. stock exchange even prior to
> passage of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act[1]). As of December
> 2005 over 270 foreign companies had been admitted to
> the Alternative Investment Market."
>
> The AIM is so colossally low-regulatory that London's
> becoming a haven for people seeking to raise funds to
> go drill for oil,gold,copper or anything else that
> requires highly speculative prospecting and in most
> markets would require massive disclosures. It's also
> been the home of a ?375million fraud, and a haven for
> offshore financial vehicles. Time will tell if this
> low-regulatory regime survives or if pressure from
> other countries persuades the UK to tighten up.
>
> As an aside, many stock markets are themselves
> publicly quoted companies, and there is a process of
> consolidation going on around the western world -
> there's a bidding war for the London Stock Exchange,
> and other stock exchanges/bourses are under bids at
> the moment.

Thanks very much for that. The entire AIM entry in wikipedia
was also very helpful.  I hope that the way that things are
done is not so thoroughly entrenched that the world's biggest
economy cannot learn from this.

Lee 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 13:03:18 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 06:03:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stathis wrote


> On 09/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, it's an extremely perverse use of the word "insurance" as
>>  a euphemism for "national or tax-funded health care system".
>>  (Hmm, I guess that is the phrase I should use since the "s"
>>  word arouses sensitivities in many.)
> 
> Why, exactly?

Why what?  why the word choice is so bad? That's because
*insurance* should always be understood as a kind of bet:
you bet that something bad will happen to you, and a large
financial institution bets that it won't, and you both hope that
the deep-pocket company wins.

Damien also explained very well why the term should not
be used as a synonym for "national health care".

If you're wondering why I should avoid the "s" word, it's 
because for reasons unknown to me many people who
really do admit that Sweden, say, is more socialized (or
is closer to socialism) than is the U.S., but they have gone
on record as feeling insulted by use of the terms "socialistic"
and "socialism". It's an extremely complex issue just who
is bothered by what terms (I can't even fully explain why
I am bothered by some language issues and not others.)

> Because it's compulsory?

In principle, that's a big part of it. Free choice in general has
worked out so well whenever a society has been "ready" 
for it, i.e., when the freedom is able to be maintained without
immediately falling to some more practical and ruthless group
that takes advantage of it to push some anti-freedom agenda.
There are a number of free countries in the world who are
steadily being encroached upon by those who disagree that
the country should be free (or that people should live according
to secular laws that lay down a great deal of personal liberty),
and yet to take advantage of the country's freedoms to directly
go about undermining them.

> There are all sorts of commercial situations where (private)
> insurance is compulsory; for example, if you are the owner
> of a unit in an apartment building.

But if the *compulsion* (so-called) arises from you freely
choosing to live in such an apartment, instead of choosing
some other kind of dwelling (that is perhaps more expensive),
then that's one thing.  I choose to continue to live in a town-
house complex that has all sorts of rules about what we can
and cannot do to the exterior of our units. 

It's quite another when the entire nation applies force. It's
not at all easy to go live in another country, and worse, if
the country that is using force on you excessively, i.e., in
instances where substitutes would be available, then one
really is trapped. As I said before, the world's most 
advanced free societies should work to diminish the number
of regulations and laws that are compulsorily inflicted on the
population. (That does not mean getting rid of all laws, of
course.)

>> Oh, it's a difficult choice, all right. In any system of national,
>>  tax-funded medical care, there will end up being bureaucrats
>>  who make the hard decisions about who gets what expensive
>>  treatments. Do you really expect the son of a senator to be
>>  treated with the same lack of deference a typical semiretired
>>  software engineer would be?  There is a record of a certain
>>  baseball player---I forget who---who was put at the head of
>>  the list for some state or federally funded medical treatment
>>  a few years back. You'll never root out that kind of corruption.
> 
> I guess it's possible, but the same sort of thing can happen if you're
> trying to book a restaurant table.

Not at all. Keep in mind that so long as not all the restaurants
are regulated by the government (which is steadily becoming
more and more not the case in California and perhaps America
in general), then you can always *freely choose* to take your
business elsewhere.

> In my personal experience over 16 years in the Australian
> public health system something like this has happened once,
> when hospital management requested that a relative of a
> famous person be reassessed after he was rejected for
> admission.

There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other 
reason the U.S. has a much longer history.

>>  I say let the contracts be written, literal, and binding (and
>>  strongly enforced by the government) between those who
>>  legitimately want insurance for whatever they're afraid of.
>>  And if you are unlucky enough to be born with a condition
>>  that *predictably* at age 40 will start to require $100,000
>>  or $10,000,000 treatments each month to overcome, well,
>>  better then to have been of economic utility to other
>>  people and have become rich.
> 
> This is where universal insurance has an advantage, even if it is
> contracted out to a private insurer. The agreement is to insure the
> entire population of citizens, come what may.

That's still very misleading language, if you ask me. It's not
*insurance* at all!  It's simply a guarantee to all citizens that
their health problems will be "taken care of" by a nationally
tax funded (i.e. by force applied to citizens to compel them
to pay whether they want to opt out or not).

> BTW, there aren't any treatments costing $10,000,000 a
> month that have gone through any of the usual studies to
> show that they are of benefit, since there is no incentive for
> anyone to do such studies.

Perhaps not yet there aren't. But there could easily become
such treatments. Anyway, surely you got my point! Even at
$100,000 a month, some bureaucrat will end up having to
say "no" to some doctors and to some families. In the U.S.
at least, this is a huge incentive for corruption and favoritism.

It's just perfectly clear that on this issue there are some of us
who favor freedom over security, and some who do not. It's
really too bad that we have no countries of any size left in 
the world that are entirely free, in the sense that they compel
their citizens as little as did the U.S. of 1855.   So we can't
learn a thing from such non-existent examples.

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 15:25:13 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:25:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <4800AAA6.5070501@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.69.1207893544.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4800AAA6.5070501@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804120825k7f9d8327m7dbaf2b2feda9e@mail.gmail.com>

Ben Zaiboc wrote:
>>>Funnily enough, i was just reading about this girl.

What is the source material that you base your comments on?  Is there a link
you can give?

John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 16:00:49 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:00:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Made England Special?
In-Reply-To: <07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804120900n59a54c40g76f60a4e0150c69e@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
The book "Farewell to Alms" does a fine job of describing
what made England different. And between them, England
and Holland led the way to the modern world. A lot of it
could have come about accidentally because of the way
that power in the 13th century between the king and the
nobles happened to have gotten shared.

> I take the opposite view. If the violence-loving
> people from a bunch of rainy islands on the Northwest
> of Europe could overcome much bigger and more populous
> nations like France and Spain,
>>>

I have read that the ability of the English gentry to get an education, work
hard, save, and marry later in life to younger women, was a major key to the
wealth and power that the English global empire eventually acquired.

Lee Corbin wrote:
Many times they were saved from conquest by inhabiting
an island. In a very parallel way, the Japanese were permitted
by geography to work out what turned out to be a very
powerful culture and country.
>>>

England was thought of as an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" during WWII.  I
enjoy playing the computer game, "Civilization," and I find each random game
is so much different depending on the geography.  When I am in the role
of the continental "devouring empire," things are so much easier when I
don't have to build a navy and invade & hold island neighbors.

In terms of being saved from conquest, I think the English learned early on
to be scrappy and quick thinking/fast on their feet, in a desperate at times
effort to stay unconquered from the Spanish, French, Germans, etc.  It's
only my opinion but I think the Norman invasion drastically changed the
England that might have been (much less involved with continental Europe,
generally less mercantile and expansionist).  We can thank/blame the Roman
Catholic Church up to a point for this event (the pope at the time strongly
supported the Norman invasion effort and gave it his official blessing, some
say King Harold of England lost his throne in part because he was
demoralized by the pope turning his back on him, Harold was said to be a
simple man of fairly deep religious faith).

John Grigg
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From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Apr 12 16:11:37 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:11:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "Lee Corbin" <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:03 AM

> ... *It's really too bad that we have no countries of any size left in the 
> world that are entirely free, in the sense that they compel their citizens 
> as little as did the U.S. of 1855.*

Why, of course ... back then, one could *choose* to be a slaveholder, or 
not.

Yessir, NO ONE could make you own slaves in 1855.

Ah, freedom!

Olga






From moulton at moulton.com  Sat Apr 12 17:53:06 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:53:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Performance enhancing
Message-ID: <1208022786.19224.188.camel@hayek>


Given the recent discussions of performance enhancing pharmaceuticals I
found this story about swim suits interesting.  Getting 1 or 2 percent
improvement from a swim suit has possibilities.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/11/lzr.record.breaking.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
or you can try the tiny url
http://tinyurl.com/6nb5ul

This and other factors might cause some rethinking about the
organization and function of some "sporting" events.  And when
considered in conjunction with the recent news of the demonstrations as
the Olympic torch heads to China it might be the case that some will
start to consider some other possibilities.  Making the Olympics not
organized on the basis of political entities might be an interesting
idea although not likely due to the vested interests in keeping the
current structure.

Fred






From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 18:42:50 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:42:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "Farewell to Alms" Links
Message-ID: <07ea01c89ccd$7fad6d40$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Peter McCluskey has found five nice links about the book
"Fairwell to Alms" that might interest readers of this forum
My apologies if Peter or someone has already posted them.

> http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/09/a_farewell_to_a.html

I've finished that one, and agree with Caplan on most of the criticisms he
aims at Clark, though, so far, I don't think they affect Clark's major thesis.

> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/08/a-farewell-to-a.html
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/08/farewell-to-a-1.html
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/09/a-farewell-to-a.html
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/09/farewell-to-alm.html

Lee



From lists at lumen.nu  Sat Apr 12 20:12:14 2008
From: lists at lumen.nu (Joost Rekveld)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:12:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] bin Laden's background
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9F1D512F-7EC8-4738-BCC0-13D57DF7337A@lumen.nu>

it is often forgotten that Bin Laden was once actively supported by  
the Saudi government and even the cia:

<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a1980sosamacia&scale=0#a1980sosamacia>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a1979600million&scale=0#a1979600million>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a86kifahcenter&scale=0#a86kifahcenter>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a1980ssayyafafghan&scale=0#a1980ssayyafafghan>
<http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp? 
item=a89sniperrifles&scale=0#a89sniperrifles>

ciao,

Joost.

On  12 Apr, 2008, at 5:05 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Crashed planes and family members... hmmm... J. G. Ballard could have
> invented this guy.
>
> <http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/ 
> 0,25197,23524543-5001986,00.html>
>
>


-------------------------------------------

                               Joost Rekveld
-----------    http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld

-------------------------------------------

"A is better off if B is better off.?

(Heinz von Foerster)

-------------------------------------------



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 20:44:54 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:44:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Boycotting as Protest
References: <1208022786.19224.188.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <081501c89cde$531c1040$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Fred wrote in "Performance Enhancing"

> This and other factors might cause some rethinking about the
> organization and function of some "sporting" events.  And when
> considered in conjunction with the recent news of the demonstrations as
> the Olympic torch heads to China it might be the case that some will
> start to consider some other possibilities.  Making the Olympics not
> organized on the basis of political entities might be an interesting
> idea although not likely due to the vested interests in keeping the
> current structure.

I would enjoy your and other people's opinions on this very much.
Every time in my life that I've tried to formulate some kind of
principle to cover whether or not to approve of protests via boycotting
supposedly international or non-partisan events, I find I cannot really
live with certain counter-examples.

People refused to shake Fritz Haber's hand at chemical conventions
after World War I.  Should bygones have been bygones?

The U.S. deliberately sabotaged economic development in the
U.S.S.R. in an especially clever and sinister way, by causing
their controversial pipeline to blow up in the greatest non-nuclear
man-made explosion ever (by insidious software).

One stated purpose of the Olympics should be to bring nations
together. At first glance, it seems horribly wrong to use things
like this for political purposes. On the other hand, consider 
China's treatment of Tibet!

Eleanor Roosevelt claimed that even before World War II it
would have been wrong to shake Adolph Hitler's hand. Really?
If I'd been her, I just could not have forced myself, even knowing
what I know, to be so discourteous, doubly-so to an important
head of state whose moods and resulting temperament may be
very, very important.

The world tried to hold up South Africa's economic development
via sanctions. If that was good, then was doing the same to Saddam
Hussein also good?

I just don't have any strong opinions one way or the other about
any of these. Do you?

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 20:51:16 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:51:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What Made England Special?
References: <996908.96635.qm@web27012.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<07d001c89c9a$a7515100$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804120900n59a54c40g76f60a4e0150c69e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <081901c89cdf$074fa7c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

John Grigg writes

> Lee Corbin wrote:
> > The book "Farewell to Alms" does a fine job of describing
> > what made England different. And between them, England
> > and Holland led the way to the modern world. A lot of it
> > could have come about accidentally because of the way
> > that power in the 13th century between the king and the
> > nobles happened to have gotten shared.
> 
> I have read that the ability of the English gentry to get an
> education, work hard, save, and marry later in life to younger
> women, was a major key to the wealth and power that the
> English global empire eventually acquired.  

If they saved as you write, and it was after 1694 with the
creation of the Bank of England, then those savings could
indeed be one way in which you're proven right. France,
for example, was a much richer country in total, but the
cash was in people's mattresses, essentially, and it could
usually never must Britain's economic strength.

> In terms of being saved from conquest, I think the English
> learned early on to be scrappy and quick thinking/fast on
> their feet, in a desperate... effort to stay unconquered from
> the Spanish, French, Germans, etc.

I would bet that from our point of view, any nation that lasted
very long in the bad old days was "scrappy and quick 
thinking/fast on their feet".

> It's only my opinion but I think the Norman invasion drastically
> changed the England that might have been (much less involved
> with continental Europe, generally less mercantile and expansionist).

Could be.

> We can thank/blame the Roman Catholic Church up to a point for
> this event (the pope at the time strongly supported the Norman
> invasion effort and gave it his official blessing,

I didn't know that.  Thanks.

Lee

> some say King Harold of England lost his throne in part because
> he was demoralized by the pope turning his back on him, Harold
> was said to be a simple man of fairly deep religious faith.



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 21:05:05 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:05:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Olga writes

>> ... *It's really too bad that we have no countries of any size left in the 
>> world that are entirely free, in the sense that they compel their citizens 
>> as little as did the U.S. of 1855.*

Heh, heh.  I was referring to the context of free from government rule
and regulation, naturally, as you must have known.

> Why, of course ... back then, one could *choose* to be a
> slaveholder, or not.

You still can! Simply pick up your savings and go to certain places
in northern and eastern Africa, if you want to buy and own some
slaves.

It's terribly interesting to me that some people are vastly, vastly
more interested in condemning institutions dead nearly 150 years
ago (especially if it's an American or western past institution),
and seldom if ever criticize any non-western nation for the same
crimes, *taking place RIGHT NOW*.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Apr 12 21:15:12 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:15:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bin Laden's background
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080411220213.022eb3b0@satx.rr.com>
	<9F1D512F-7EC8-4738-BCC0-13D57DF7337A@lumen.nu>
Message-ID: <082a01c89ce2$893a2410$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

An excellent source praised from writers across the entire
political spectrum is "The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and
the Road to 9/11" by Lawrence Wright. His mini-biographies
of Bin Laden, Mohammed bin Laden (his father), and the
whole rather remarkable family are very thorough.

I was quite touched by the story of Qutb, who came to
America in 1948 to learn about it, lived in the small town
of Greeley, Colorado, and thought it paradise except for
the appalling behavior of the Americans who, though
very kind and polite, were so profane and sacrilegious
from his point of view. (And that was mid-west America
in the 1940s!)  Then he returned home, and wrote books
that started the whole thing off.

Lee

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joost Rekveld" <lists at lumen.nu>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] bin Laden's background


> it is often forgotten that Bin Laden was once actively supported by
> the Saudi government and even the cia:
>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a1980sosamacia&scale=0#a1980sosamacia>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a1979600million&scale=0#a1979600million>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a86kifahcenter&scale=0#a86kifahcenter>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a1980ssayyafafghan&scale=0#a1980ssayyafafghan>
> <http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?
> item=a89sniperrifles&scale=0#a89sniperrifles>
>
> ciao,
>
> Joost.
>
> On  12 Apr, 2008, at 5:05 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>> Crashed planes and family members... hmmm... J. G. Ballard could have
>> invented this guy.
>>
>> <http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/
>> 0,25197,23524543-5001986,00.html>
>>
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
>                               Joost Rekveld
> -----------    http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> "A is better off if B is better off.?
>
> (Heinz von Foerster)
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Apr 12 21:05:18 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:05:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <mailman.75.1208016076.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.75.1208016076.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4801240E.6080305@lineone.net>

John Grigg asked:

Ben Zaiboc wrote:
 >>> >>>Funnily enough, i was just reading about this girl.

 > What is the source material that you base your comments on?
 > Is there a link you can give?

Afraid not.

It was in one of those gossip magazines lying around in an airport. The 
front page caught my eye because it mentioned a child genius who became 
a happy hooker, and i remembered spike talking about something similar, 
so i picked it up. I reckoned it had to be the same girl. (not my normal 
choice of reading material, but i was very bored!)

ben zaiboc


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 22:09:57 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:09:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] LA Times: A health message listeners can relate to
Message-ID: <29666bf30804121509u10f5e271r82172c676dd7476e@mail.gmail.com>

In the past, I've discussed the issue of communicating complicated or
confrontive concepts, like H+, to the general public.  Storytelling
works.  Instead of listening to their doctors or assimilating and
applying information from news sources (all of which they appear to
reject) what seems to hit these listeners where they live are the
stories about people just like them, battling the same diseases and
making crucial medical and lifestyle choices.  Living through these
character making the choices they themselves must make to survive,
they find the transition to better choices easier and fulfilling.

Talk about storytelling and empathy saving lives.

PJ

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-radio11apr11,1,764846.story

>From the Los Angeles Times
COLUMN ONE
A health message listeners can relate to
In the serialized radio drama 'BodyLove,' characters wrestle with
diabetes and high blood pressure along with traditional soap-opera
problems. They get through to audiences in a way doctors can't.
By Stephanie Simon
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

April 11, 2008

MARION, ALA. ? The doctors had been after Loretta Ragland for years to
keep her diabetes in check. Eat right. Exercise. Lose weight. She'd
heard it all time and again.

And ignored it all -- until she heard about Rosalyn.

Roz put off dealing with her diabetes so long, her kidneys gave out.
While she was in surgery, her husband died of a massive stroke --
after which it was revealed that he'd fathered a child with Roz's best
friend, Vanessa, whose alcoholic husband had recently run off, leaving
her to care for a suicidal daughter and an obese toddler.

Ragland first heard Roz and Vanessa bemoaning their plights on the
radio. She soon realized she was listening to fictional characters in
a drama.

No matter. She could identify.

Ragland, 57, cheered when Roz began taking exercise walks. Then she,
too, started walking around her hometown of Huntsville, in northern
Alabama. She gave up soda. She joined a gym. She quit sweets in
solidarity with Vanessa.

"When I heard it from a doctor, I wouldn't really listen," Ragland
said. "But when I heard it on the show, I was like, 'Wow, maybe there
is something to this.' "

That response is exactly what public-health professor Connie Kohler
hoped for when she created the serialized radio drama "BodyLove" (also
the name of Vanessa's beauty salon).

In weekly 15-minute episodes -- crammed with schemes, dreams and
cliffhangers -- two extended families wrestle with a slew of health
problems while trying to navigate prickly relationships and cope with
financial strains.

Written by students and faculty at the University of Alabama, the show
targets African Americans, who struggle with many of these health
crises in disproportionate numbers. Across Alabama, for instance, 35%
of black women are obese, compared with 20% of white women. The
diabetes death rate for blacks is more than double that for whites.

"BodyLove's" characters face those odds with more frustration than
courage. They give in to cravings for burgers. They resist taking
insulin. They quit smoking, then backslide; lose weight, then regain
it.

In short, they sound real -- like your best friend, like you -- and
not like authorities lecturing from on high.

"We didn't want it to be a PBS thing," said Alex Urquhart, a creative
writing major who helped develop several scripts.

The characters make progress through modest lifestyle changes. No one
goes vegan or runs marathons -- they refrain from buying a tub of ice
cream, or get out for a walk twice a week.

Local hosts of the show also stress practical steps to better health.
Here in Marion, a small town in central Alabama, registered nurse
Frances Ford modifies her on-air nutrition tips to suit local budgets.
Nearly one-third of county residents live in poverty.

"Olive oil is the best, but it's more expensive, so we tell them
canola oil is better than vegetable oil," she said after a recent
broadcast.

Longtime listener Josephine Brand, who had come to the studio to pick
up a "BodyLove" T-shirt, looked crestfallen.

"I use vegetable oil," she said. "Or that Crisco."

"Try baking your dinner, with seasoning on it," Ford suggested.

Brand nodded. She'd tried some low-fat recipes, she said, and had lost
a little weight.

Encouraged, Ford pressed: "Now that you have the 'BodyLove' T-shirt,
you've got to start walking." Brand, 53, promised she would.

The first 80 episodes of "BodyLove" aired between 2003 and 2007. After
a fundraising break, Kohler and her partners are now writing and
producing several new episodes, which will air after local stations
cycle through reruns.

The "BodyLove" team is also working on a new radio drama with snappy
three-minute episodes. Focused on obesity and funded in part by the
National Institutes of Health, the soap opera will be marketed to
urban stations in cities with large black populations,such as Los
Angeles, Miami and Washington, D.C.

Kohler is also working on two soap operas about teen pregnancy -- one
in Spanish -- for distribution in Iowa.

The concept of soap opera as a vehicle for social change has been
around for decades. In Mexico, China, Pakistan, Kenya and other
developing nations, wildly popular TV dramas have taught generations
about issues such as AIDS, addiction, sexual assault and adult
illiteracy.

"This is a model that's been so successful in other countries, I
wonder why we aren't seeing more of it here," said Pauline M. Seitz,
who directs a matching-grant program under the Robert Wood Johnson
Foundation, which supports public-health initiatives.

"We all learn through stories," Seitz said. "We're captivated by them,
moved by them, motivated by them."

Seitz approved a grant of nearly $250,000 over three years to launch BodyLove.

Local donors matched that sum -- in exchange for some input on plot twists.

After the Alabama Eye Bank put up funding, for instance, one character
found herself in need of a cornea transplant. "It can end up being a
little forced," said Lee Shackleford, the lead writer and a
playwright-in-residence at the University of Alabama.

The dialogue, though, usually rings true -- especially in the hands of
the seasoned cast, which includes professional and amateur actors
under the direction of the university's theater department chairman.

Vanessa's son grumbles that her healthy meals -- cooked with less oil
-- taste like cardboard. Her mother pushes aside dread at finding a
lump in her breast with a brisk "I don't have time for this nonsense."

When her daughter, Maya, sinks into depression, Vanessa is not sure
how to react. Her mother advises the family not to take Maya's
lethargy seriously: "Maybe it's OK for white girls up in Hollywood,
but we need to be strong."

The drama hooked Ragland so completely, she began leaving work early
on Mondays so she wouldn't miss a minute of the soap opera. She took
to driving to the gym while listening to "BodyLove"; Roz's woes, she
found, make for a good motivational tool.

"BodyLove" is broadcast on half a dozen stations across Alabama, as
well as in Atlanta and Jackson, Miss. It has just been picked up in
Port St. Lucie, Fla., and negotiations are underway in Tacoma, Wash.

The stations that air "BodyLove" tend to be small and locally owned;
they can't afford to subscribe to Arbitron for official audience
ratings. But station managers report strong interest.

Here in Marion, "BodyLove" airs on a gospel station, drawing an
audience of about 20,000 across nearly two dozen counties.

The Marion station, WJUS-AM, operates out of a dingy trailer plunked
down in a field of weeds. Each Wednesday a few minutes before 8 a.m.,
Ford, the registered nurse, bustles in, puts on a clunky set of
headphones and tugs a small microphone toward herself. "As you drink
your coffee or your tea, as you get ready for your day," she says,
"I'm glad you're tuning in to 'BodyLove.' "

Midway through the soap opera, Ford breaks for announcements from the
county health department, mentioning a group fitness walk or free
blood-pressure screening. At the end, she stays on the air another 10
to 15 minutes to answer questions.

Over the years, "BodyLove" has built a sense of community and
camaraderie among listeners, as though they're all sitting around
Vanessa's salon. When they call in, few have questions for Ford.
Mostly, they just want to chat.

"Do you have any advice for Vanessa?" Ford asked one morning after an
episode exploring that character's mounting stress.

"I don't," a female caller responded. "But I'm sure getting fat. I'm
going to go out on the walking trail and start exercising."

Ford, beaming, broke into applause.

She knows many of her regulars by name. ("I bet you this is Miss Mary
Ann Johnson," she told one caller. She was wrong. It was Miss
Johnson's twin sister.)

Ford keeps tabs on her callers' weight. She nags them to get their
blood pressure checked. She delights in hearing how "BodyLove" has
changed their habits.

After an episode about the health benefits of "naked chicken" --
stripped of its fatty Southern-fried skin -- William Smith, 63, called
in to boast that he'd told his wife to roast their Thanksgiving turkey
instead of frying it. Ford was so proud, she recently made an on-air
plea for him to call back and tell the story again.

Bertha Kennie, another regular caller, credits "BodyLove" with
teaching her to read nutrition labels for sodium and sugar content.

"I never hardly paid any attention before," she said. "Just pulled
what I wanted off the shelf."

Kennie, 72, is fairly sure that some doctor, somewhere, must have told
her to watch the salt. "But doctors say a lot of things," she said,
"and sometimes it just rolls right off you, like water off a duck's
back." The show, on the other hand, makes her sit up and listen: "You
get real into it."

When she feels like complaining about her own burdens, Kennie thinks
of poor Vanessa or Roz or Maya.

"You don't feel like the Lord's picking on you," she said, "because
you realize everyone has problems."

The characters' travails have even affected the actors who give them voice.

"I don't eat as much fried chicken anymore. I take the skin off," said
James McCarty II, a regular on the show.

Then he flashed a sheepish grin.

He hasn't turned into a health nut, he admitted. It would be bad for
his career. His other regular gig: making commercials for McDonald's.

stephanie.simon at latimes.com


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Apr 12 23:16:15 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:16:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com><01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com><01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "Lee Corbin" <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> It's terribly interesting to me that some people are vastly, vastly
> more interested in condemning institutions dead nearly 150 years
> ago (especially if it's an American or western past institution),
> and seldom if ever criticize any non-western nation for the same
> crimes, *taking place RIGHT NOW*.

Well, I'm certainly not one of them - I try to criticize (as well as give 
praise) as appropriate.  But that's me - I'm an equal opportunity dragon 
lady.

Your remark about "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take 
into account de jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the 
1960s, and many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those 
institutions are interrelated - and not all dead.

Not that they're exempt from condemnation, but many "non-western nations" 
out there now don't pretend to be democracies - we USAmericans are (and 
were) supposed to be a democracy.  That put us then (and puts us now) at a 
different, and higher, standard.

I am an immigrant (and naturalized citizen) of the USA.  I like it here.  I 
can't think of any other place I'd rather live.  I like the idea of "nation 
of nations" that we have going here.  I would like to see this country 
strive for greatness - but, in looking at the past, you're not going to find 
it (IMHO).

To garble a phrase Quentin Crisp used in The Naked Civil Servant:  There was 
no great shining country (and no shining city on the hill, either - except 
in Ronald Reagan movies).

Olga



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 02:23:08 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:23:08 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
>  a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
>  government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
>  longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other
>  reason the U.S. has a much longer history.

Have a look at this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

The index rates corruption among public officials and politicians. A
quick look at the list suggests that corruption varies inversely as
per capita wealth. There doesn't seem to be much correlation with how
"socialistic" a country is. I expect that a ranking of corruption in
private enterprise would come out very similar.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 02:36:44 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:36:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <480171BC.7070405@mac.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On 12/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
>>  a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
>>  government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
>>  longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other
>>  reason the U.S. has a much longer history.
>>     
>
> Have a look at this article:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
>
> The index rates corruption among public officials and politicians. A
> quick look at the list suggests that corruption varies inversely as
> per capita wealth. There doesn't seem to be much correlation with how
> "socialistic" a country is. I expect that a ranking of corruption in
> private enterprise would come out very similar.
>
>
>   

I have a suspicion that the index varies inversely with the percentage 
of a country's wealth that is owned or controlled by the government and 
how much government permission and favor must be sought.   If there is 
nothing much in government hands to buy, bribe, enter into conspiracy 
with government officials then corruption should drop rapidly.   
Governments put the Mafia to shame and are often more ill-tempered.

- samantha




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr 13 03:42:17 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:42:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Egan free
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080412223956.023515f0@satx.rr.com>

Greg Egan's "Dark Integers," a sequel to "Luminous," is available for 
free download at the ASIMOV'S website:

http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0805/DarkINtegers.shtml

It's up for a Hugo, is why.

Damien Broderick



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 03:51:14 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:51:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200803311514.m2VFDxqg014566@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331105247.0270c148@satx.rr.com>
	<29666bf30803310913t6896a539n4c79f1d5d5a37a8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a501c8937c$67574720$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080331173019.05df3198@satx.rr.com>
	<01d701c89413$7bf4f640$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<47F6718D.1060006@insightbb.com>
	<059101c899fc$937a1900$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <48018332.50203@mac.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
> Kevin wrote
>
>   
>> Personally I think that the concept of health insurance is
>> what has caused the skyrocketing costs in the first place.
>> People no longer saw nor cared what they were being
>> charged because someone else was paying the bill so
>> the market forces controlling costs were removed.
>> It's the cost of BS we all pay. 
>>     
>
> YES!  And do you know how in the United States all
> that BS came about?  
>
> In World War II the U.S. government in its wisdom
> decided that it could do better than the free market
> in distributing various good, e.g. gasoline. So instead
> of (via tax monies) simply bidding up the price of
> gas so as to keep the troops sufficiently provisioned,
> an idiotic rationing system was employed, which was
> not nearly so efficient.
>
>   
It was also in WW II that they came up with that other "temporary" 
'efficiency' of having all employers contribute free labor to withhold 
taxes on pay day and send them to the government.  The government has 
been growing tremendously ever since.

> At the same time, the government passed laws decreeing
> certain wage and price controls.  (The last time our
> ingenious government tried that was the 1973 "oil
> embargo" event, so miscalled by people who fail
> to realize that the higher prices necessitated by the
> times would have rationed the gas infinitely better
> than the "gas lines" and shortages that inevitably
> occurred.
>
>   
Now they do wage and price controls by more indirect means like 
inflating the money supply and juggling tax 'loopholes'.  :-)


> Naturally, such meddling in the market has unforeseen
> consequences. Companies (especially those working in
> the war-related industries) still had to reward success
> and reward those employees who contributed the most.
> But thanks to the new government regulations, they
> couldn't simply be *paid* more.

Or in the case of unions, paid less for less than stellar performance.
>   So loopholes were
> created---for example, the company could provide
> "company funded insurance". These loopholes did
> provide a sneaky way to attract and reward employees,
> but at the sacrifice of some market inefficiency.
>
> Far worse were the long term consequences. From then
> on, medical "insurance" (which soon took on very un-
> insurance type attributes) and other fringe benefits were
> abetted by the government, which didn't tax those benefits.
> And that's how it all started.
>
>   
So not taking money from the company and its workers amounts to 
'abetting' or interference with free enterprise?   Hmm.

> Then, seeing the spiraling medical costs (as the final consumers,
> the end users, were separated from those who actually paid,
> that is the insurance companies), and seeing what damage had
> been done, do you suppose that a rollback of the extremely
> damaging government regulations was considered?
Actually more harm was when government got into the act more directly 
with Medicare, Medicaid and the attendant heavy regulations applied to 
the practice of medicine.    When government starts telling doctors how 
to practice and relate to their patients and when government promises so 
much that it will bankrupt generations to pay for it all then all sanity 
is gone.


>   NOT 
> FOR A MOMENT!  It was indeed thought that the answer
> was *more regulation*, more artificial ways to disengage
> the end users of services from those who paid for them.
>
> So the HMOs were invented. And each such step since has
> resulted in a bigger mess, and more and more outrageous
> and ridiculous medical prices and charges.
>
>   
>> For example - four years ago I took my 9 yr old daughter to
>> the ER at 3 am because she had a nosebleed that started at
>> 9pm and hadn't stopped. We waited 3 hours, then saw
>> a Dr for 10 minutes who crammed what looked like a small
>> tampon up her nose and sent her home. My cost was $75 for
>> the ER visit. When I later looked up the detailed billing out
>> of curiosity, I saw that the Dr charge was $440 for the
>> 15 minutes and the "tampon" cost $1200! Plus there was
>> another $300 worth of supplies and such.
>>     

> That is predictably what will happen without the discipline
> of the market place.  How could the American government
> as late as 1971 (!) have believed in price controls?  How
> in the world as late as 2008 can people still reflexively 
> reject market mechanisms and price signals?
>   
Yep.

>   
>> I called and asked the hospital about this obvious error
>> and they said that yes, the bill was correct, the "medical
>> device" they put in her nose was "medicated". I was
>> supposed to return in 3 days to have it removed which
>> would have been a $25 co-pay office visit ($120 in
>> insurance), but just to spite the system, I pulled the
>> thing out myself with no trouble at all and the bleeding
>> was obviously gone.
>>     
>
> If you told them later what you had done, they would have
> been speechless with astonishment.  Why, they would
> wonder, had you tried doing that?  After all, they would
> have done it *for free*!
>
>   
>> I have no idea why nobody wants to address this issue.
>> If Drs are in such short supply, maybe allowing more
>> into medical school
>>     
>
> It's enough to make me gag.  *Allowing* more into whatever.
> And this in a supposedly free country.
>
>   
The AMA has consistently acted to limit the number of doctors officially 
licensed and allowed to practice medicine.     This country is not 
remotely free in so very many ways and becoming less so all the time.

>> or  allowing  practicing nurses to  do more would be in
>> order and help to drive some of these costs down.
>>     
>
> Why?  To whose benefit (beside the remote tax payer, of
> course) would such accrue?
>   
To everyone's benefit.  Doctors could concentrate more on cases that 
actually require their expertise.  Nurses could practice more of what 
they know.  Costs would be lower regardless of direct and indirect 
arrangement of payers.  Visits would be more timely and brief.  What's 
not to like?

>   
>> I think that the free market isn't working because the
>> market is not free.
>>     
>
> Exactly right.
>
>   
Yes.




From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 04:04:00 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:04:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
 Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48018630.2020902@mac.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
> I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on it,
>   
When the alternative is to rely on taking money from people by force 
then yes, I do want to rely on private funding.  However, calling it 
charity is quite mistaken.  Private persons, groups, corporations and so 
on are more than capable of understanding the vast importance of 
scientific research.   If you don't have government taking much of their 
wealth by force then I suspect you would see a great deal more private 
funding.

> and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it?
Is it a success of people donating their time and money to what they 
believe is important rather than having their time and money looted by 
politicians to support whatever the politicians think is important?   
Why is there this assumption that the politicians are any more wise or 
benevolent or capable than the people who earned the money the 
politicians took in taxation?   Isn't the evidence in the US of the 
government taking 40 - 50% of all wealth and still running deficits so 
large we are in hock for decades into the future quite clear that 
government is not the solution?


>  The main
> purpose of taxation is to pay for that which the taxpayers consider
> worthwhile but which the free market won't provide, or won't
> efficiently and fairly provide. Charity is fickle and degrading; when
> I'm given something I want it to be because I'm entitled to it.
>
>   
If the "taxpayers" aka people consider it important they are free 
[without taxes] to form whatever organization and money pools they wish 
to finance these things.   It doesn't get easier by having government 
coercively collect funds.  It becomes a lot harder.

Receiving money that was voluntarily paid for your efforts is more 
degrading than receiving money coerced by threat of imprisonment?  Come 
again?

- samantha



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 04:18:01 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:18:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Egan free
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080412223956.023515f0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080412223956.023515f0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804122318.01656.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Saturday 12 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Greg Egan's "Dark Integers," a sequel to "Luminous," is available for
> free download at the ASIMOV'S website:
>
> http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0805/DarkINtegers.shtml
>
> It's up for a Hugo, is why.

Luminous is on my shelf, in a treasured spot.

It all started out as a joke. Argument for argument's sake. Alison and 
her infuriating heresies. 


"A mathematical theorem," she'd proclaimed, "only becomes true when a 
physical system tests it out: when the system's behaviour depends in 
some way on the theorem being true or false. 


It was June 1994. We were sitting in a small paved courtyard, having 
just emerged from the final lecture in a one-semester course on the 
philosophy of mathematics - a bit of light relief from the hard grind 
of the real stuff. We had fifteen minutes to to kill before meeting 
some friends for lunch. It was a social conversation - verging on mild 
flirtation - nothing more. Maybe there were demented academics, lurking 
in dark crypts somewhere, who held views on the nature of mathematical 
truth which they were willing to die for. But were were twenty years 
old, and we knew it was all angels on the head of a pin. 


I said, "Physical systems don't create mathematics. Nothing creates 
mathematics - it's timeless. All of number theory would still be 
exactly the same, even if the universe contained nothing but a single 
electron." 


Alison snorted. "Yes, because even one electron, plus a space-time to 
put it in, needs all of quantum mechanics and all of general 
relativity - and all the mathematical infrastructure they entail. One 
particle floating in a quantum vacuum needs half the major results of 
group theory, functional analysis, differential geometry - " 


"OK, OK! I get the point. But if that's the case... the events in the 
first picosecond after the Big Bang would have `constructed' every last 
mathematical truth required by any physical system, all the way to the 
Big Cruch. Once you've got the mathematics which underpins the Theory 
of Everything... that's it, that's all you ever need. End of story." 


"But it's not. To apply the Theory of Everything to a particular system, 
you still need all the mathematics for dealing with that system - which 
could include results far beyond the mathematics the TOE itself 
requires. I mean, fifteen billion years after the Big Bang, someone can 
still come along and prove, say... Fermat's Last Theorem." Andrew Wiles 
at Princeton had recently announced a proof of the famous conjecture, 
although his work was still being scrutinised by his colleagues, and 
the final verdict wasn't yet in. "Physics never needed that before." 


I protested, "What do you mean, `before'? Fermat's Last Theorem never 
has - and never will - have anything to do with any branch of physics." 


Alison smiled sneakily. "No branch, no. But only because the class of 
physical systems whose behaviour depend on it is so ludicrously 
specific: the brains of mathematicians who are trying to validate the 
Wiles proof." 


"Think about it. Once you start trying to prove a theorem, then even if 
the mathematics is so `pure' that it has no relevance to any other 
object in the universe... you've just made it relevant to yourself. You 
have to choose some physical process to test the theorem - whether you 
use a computer, or a pen and paper... or just close your eyes and 
shuffle neurotransmitters. There's no such thing as a proof which 
doesn't rely on physical events, and whether they're inside or outside 
your skull doesn't make them any less real."

Found originally at:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week123.html

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 13 04:17:10 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:17:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] rice price
In-Reply-To: <000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080328232852.0243e6f0@satx.rr.com>
	<000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>
Message-ID: <48018946.4070501@mac.com>

scerir wrote:
> Damien wrote:
>   
>> Uh-oh:
>> LONDON and BANGKOK -- Rice prices jumped 30 per cent to an all-time
>> high on Thursday, raising fears of fresh outbreaks of social unrest
>> across Asia where the grain is a staple food for more than 2.5bn people.
>> The increase came after Egypt, a leading exporter, imposed a formal
>> ban on selling rice abroad to keep local prices down, and the
>> Philippines announced plans for a major purchase of the grain in the
>> international market to boost supplies. Global rice stocks are at
>> their lowest since 1976.
>>     
>
>
> It seems there are riots around the world because of rising 
> prices. An Egyptian daily newspaper reports that 12,000 
> people have been arrested for selling flour on 
> the black market. Rice prices, meanwhile, rocketed 
> from just over $200 per ton last October to $430 
> at the end of March. The government responded on April 1 
> by suspending rice exports for six months.
>   
All the "softs" are pretty much doing the same thing.  Wheat is out of 
sight.  Oil/energy cost in the food production cycle are a large part of 
it.  In the case of corn the idiotic push by the US government to make 
it a source of fuel did not help.  A lot of extra planting of corn 
occurred that in some cases resulted in less of other crops.   Real 
inflation of the money supply and loosening of critical interest rates 
play a large role.

This is a pretty scary development although not entirely unexpected.  
Check your grocery bills and if you are diligent compare them to what 
you paid a year ago.   It is not just an effect elsewhere. 

- samantha



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 11:33:16 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:33:16 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080401130529.0571bb40@satx.rr.com>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804121923h2112cd29k855554aafe18c7e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<480171BC.7070405@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804130433hb6759bfg40ae3329029890bd@mail.gmail.com>

On 13/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>  > On 12/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >> There is utterly no guarantee that the same would hold for
>  >>  a far larger, much more diverse society with entirely different
>  >>  government traditions. Cronyism and corruption have a much
>  >>  longer history in the U.S. than in Australia if for no other
>  >>  reason the U.S. has a much longer history.
>  >
>  > Have a look at this article:
>  >
>  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
>
> I have a suspicion that the index varies inversely with the percentage
>  of a country's wealth that is owned or controlled by the government and
>  how much government permission and favor must be sought.   If there is
>  nothing much in government hands to buy, bribe, enter into conspiracy
>  with government officials then corruption should drop rapidly.
>  Governments put the Mafia to shame and are often more ill-tempered.

That's not how the list reads. Most of the countries near the top are
high taxing, high regulation. And I suspect that private enterprise
corruption and inefficiency is directly proportional to government
corruption and inefficiency. Do you think the Danish Government is
more likely to rip you off than a private firm (the only sort) in
Somalia, the libertarian paradise?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 12:37:45 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:37:45 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <48018630.2020902@mac.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<48018630.2020902@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804130537s44a70347m7dd3c634ba4444cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 13/04/2008, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>  >
>  > I suppose we can't stop charity but do you really want to rely on it,
>  >
>
> When the alternative is to rely on taking money from people by force
>  then yes, I do want to rely on private funding.  However, calling it
>  charity is quite mistaken.  Private persons, groups, corporations and so
>  on are more than capable of understanding the vast importance of
>  scientific research.   If you don't have government taking much of their
>  wealth by force then I suspect you would see a great deal more private
>  funding.

More private funding for private profit. Where's the profit in, say,
particle physics? There will probably always be some funding for basic
science but it will regarded in the same way as funding orphanages in
third world countries.

>  > and is it a success of the free market if you do rely on it?
>
>  Is it a success of people donating their time and money to what they
>  believe is important rather than having their time and money looted by
>  politicians to support whatever the politicians think is important?
>  Why is there this assumption that the politicians are any more wise or
>  benevolent or capable than the people who earned the money the
>  politicians took in taxation?   Isn't the evidence in the US of the
>  government taking 40 - 50% of all wealth and still running deficits so
>  large we are in hock for decades into the future quite clear that
>  government is not the solution?

Much of the money collected is wasted. It would be better if this
money were left in the hands of the taxpayers or spent on worthwhile
projects that private enterprise won't touch. The taxpayers are the
customers and shareholders and they have to make decisions as to what
to do with their money. If the decision is a bad one then the country
will falter and other countries which tax higher, lower or better will
prevail.

>  Receiving money that was voluntarily paid for your efforts is more
>  degrading than receiving money coerced by threat of imprisonment?  Come
>  again?

If my house burns down my insurance company will pay to build me a
replacement. This is despite the fact that I may only have paid a few
hundred dollars in premiums: the deal was that if it burns down, they
will pay, and I don't feel guilty about taking the money from all the
other policyholders whose houses don't burn down. Similarly, the deal
in the country where I live is that if I earn income I will pay a
proportion of it to the Government, and in return I will receive
certain services if I need them. I know that this is the deal so I
should feel neither guilty if I get back more than I contribute nor
aggrieved if I contribute more than I get back.

You will doubtless point out that I am free not to insure my house but
that isn't always an option. If I live in an apartment building I will
be forced to pay my share for insurance and other maintenance costs,
simply because the majority of the other owners have voted that way.
If I don't pay I may be taken to court, and if I still refuse to pay I
may be imprisoned, or my assets forcibly seized. My only recourse is
to sell the apartment and move elsewhere. But it might be very
difficult for me to do that for any number of reasons, and in any case
if I move elsewhere I might encounter the same fees and regulations:
which is exactly the same problem I have if I consider moving to
another country because I don't like the laws and taxation.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 13:29:54 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:29:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Health system, again
In-Reply-To: <027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

>  Your remark about "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take
>  into account de jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the
>  1960s, and many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those
>  institutions are interrelated - and not all dead.

### But given the context of this discussion - note that the Jim Crow
laws were enacted by, guess what, the government. So the high
likelihood that immoral laws would be enacted because of regulatory
capture is another argument *against* the government. In case of
slavery, regulatory capture was achieved by a minority of wealthy
landowners who maintained the system long after it became unpopular
among the majority of Southern population. Slavery wouldn't have
survived as long as it did if not for the existence of the US
government.

Rafal

>
>  Not that they're exempt from condemnation, but many "non-western nations"
>  out there now don't pretend to be democracies - we USAmericans are (and
>  were) supposed to be a democracy.  That put us then (and puts us now) at a
>  different, and higher, standard.
>
>  I am an immigrant (and naturalized citizen) of the USA.  I like it here.  I
>  can't think of any other place I'd rather live.  I like the idea of "nation
>  of nations" that we have going here.  I would like to see this country
>  strive for greatness - but, in looking at the past, you're not going to find
>  it (IMHO).
>
>  To garble a phrase Quentin Crisp used in The Naked Civil Servant:  There was
>  no great shining country (and no shining city on the hill, either - except
>  in Ronald Reagan movies).
>
>  Olga
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  extropy-chat mailing list
>  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Chief Clinical Officer,
Gencia Corporation
706 B Forest St.

Charlottesville, VA 22903

tel: (434) 295-4800

fax: (434) 295-4951



This electronic message transmission contains information from the
biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or
privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the
individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have
received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by
telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail
(fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately.


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 14:44:51 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:44:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804130744o260c18aaw1946f2cf51fa814@mail.gmail.com>

Stathis wrote:
A lot of government research spending has been into war-making
techniques, especially in the US and the Soviet Union. That's bad, but
it doesn't negate the fact that most of the outstanding scientific
discoveries of the past century have been funded by government,
usually directly but even if you take into account outstanding private
institutions such as Bell Labs, at least indirectly through the public
education system.
>>>

I think that while war is a very ugly thing, scientific spinoffs from
military research have been hugely beneficial to society in general.  It's
sort of a sad irony attached to the human condition.  But finding new and
better ways to kill (or defend from being killed/conquered/bullied, human
distrust of the other is a giant component to this) is a much larger
priority than discovering better ways to heal and extend life.  I keep on
wistfully pondering how just a tiny miniscule fraction of the funds spent on
the U.S. war in the Middle East could pay for Aubrey de Grey's entire
longterm anti-aging research project.

he continues:
As for propaganda and the space program, so what? It's a tragedy that
the propaganda appeal of manned space flight wore off after the first
few moon landings. Do you see private entrepreneurs stepping in with a
few trillion to colonise Mars or the asteroids?
>>>

We are not at that step yet, but will be in time.  Please remember, many say
the moonlanding was a couple decades ahead of schedule from what it probably
would have been without a cold war competition spurring the United States to
action.  I see hope for manned space flight between Richard Branson, Robert
Bigelow, Burt Rutan, etc., in the private sector and Nasa's next generation
launch vehicles like the "Ares" being prepared to replace the aging space
shuttle fleet.

Frankly, I'm very excited about the new generation of spacecraft being
readied by Nasa.  I had expected a "futuristic" version of the old shuttle
to be the heir apparent, but instead a "retro/tried and true" approach was
chosen.

Ares I, Crew Launch Vehicle

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/ares/aresI.html

Ares V, Cargo Launch Vehicle

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/ares/aresI.html


John Grigg  : )
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 13 16:30:53 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:30:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] harlotry again
In-Reply-To: <4801240E.6080305@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.75.1208016076.637.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4801240E.6080305@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804130930y330dccd3if84051586aa0f9b8@mail.gmail.com>

Ben wrote/quoted from the magazine interview:
"I don't see it as a terrible thing. It's something I drifted into by
chance. I never judged girls who worked as escorts and was always
fascinated by it. There is this huge stigma attached to escorting but I
don't see it like that"

"I'm still young and I can't decide on what I want to do in the future.
My escorting work provides me with a fabulous life and I don't want to
give it up just yet."

"I have a nice life - I don't want for anything and I'm in control. I
haven't had much freedom in my life and I'm enjoying it."

Doesn't sound like someone with horrific emotional and self-esteem
problems to me!

More like an extremely intelligent girl who's decided to take control of
her own life and do what she wants to do. More power to her, I say.
>>>

Well..., I suppose then she was not the horribly exploited/totally
self-destructive woman I had envisioned.  It's sounds like her life was more
along the lines of Ashley Dupre.  I had thought the former Oxford
student was more of a "low-end" hooker and for many of them life is hell.
But in the links that Spike gave, it was clear that both of the young women
came from very broken/dysfunctional homes.  I wonder how many high-end
prostitutes come from happy families? hmmm...  It would make for an
interesting study.

Spike wrote:
I just don't get it.  A harlot with whom one could actually carry on
meaningful conversation (possibly even about mathematics!) and yet no
premium pricetag?  Someone do explain.
>>>

It does seem strange.  Perhaps the former Oxford student does not/did not
have a full understanding of her full market value if she went after the
right customer demographic.  But this also might be a sign of hidden low
self-esteem.  I'm not so sure she is the happy and self-actualizing person
you take her for.

Ben wrote:
My impression is that she is definitely not messed-up, and has not been
driven to 'degrade herself' (do you regard prostitution, per se, to be a
degrading career?).
>>>

I think even at the high-end of prostitution, it is for many women (at least
to some extent) a distasteful thing (depending in part on the
customer/situation).  Perhaps there are some women who have a personal
psychology that allows them to find the work engaging and even fun.  I would
say despite even the "glitter" of high-end prostitution, it is at some
level degrading.  Perhaps I am an old-fashioned romantic who believes sex
should be between two people with real feelings of deep affection/love (or
at least lust!) between them.  I suspect a century from now we will see a
publicly accepted and updated version of the ancient Greek Hetaira (many
current politicians would love to see that day!, lol).  I wonder to what
extent academics have explored the world of prostitution (especially at the
high-end).  What I mainly know of the topic is about the poor benighted
street walkers.

John
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Apr 13 16:36:06 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:36:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] rice price
In-Reply-To: <48018946.4070501@mac.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20080328232852.0243e6f0@satx.rr.com>
	<000301c89a94$d6d24180$92064797@archimede>
	<48018946.4070501@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1208104669_4391@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:17 PM 4/12/2008, samantha wrote:
>scerir wrote:
> > Damien wrote:
> >
> >> Uh-oh:
> >> LONDON and BANGKOK -- Rice prices jumped 30 per cent to an all-time
> >> high on Thursday, raising fears of fresh outbreaks of social unrest
> >> across Asia where the grain is a staple food for more than 2.5bn people.
> >> The increase came after Egypt, a leading exporter, imposed a formal
> >> ban on selling rice abroad to keep local prices down, and the
> >> Philippines announced plans for a major purchase of the grain in the
> >> international market to boost supplies. Global rice stocks are at
> >> their lowest since 1976.
> >>
> > It seems there are riots around the world because of rising
> > prices. An Egyptian daily newspaper reports that 12,000
> > people have been arrested for selling flour on
> > the black market. Rice prices, meanwhile, rocketed
> > from just over $200 per ton last October to $430
> > at the end of March. The government responded on April 1
> > by suspending rice exports for six months.
> >
>All the "softs" are pretty much doing the same thing.  Wheat is out of
>sight.  Oil/energy cost in the food production cycle are a large part of
>it.  In the case of corn the idiotic push by the US government to make
>it a source of fuel did not help.  A lot of extra planting of corn
>occurred that in some cases resulted in less of other crops.   Real
>inflation of the money supply and loosening of critical interest rates
>play a large role.
>
>This is a pretty scary development although not entirely unexpected.
>Check your grocery bills and if you are diligent compare them to what
>you paid a year ago.   It is not just an effect elsewhere.

This is the expected effect of $100 oil.  We are far out on the curve 
of diminishing returns.  Unless a new source of energy replaces oil 
in a relatively short period of time, an awful number of people will starve.

Things are so tightly interwoven it is hard to say what effect this 
will have on you personally.  The electric power will probably stay 
up, but travel by air might become to expensive for most people.

Keith 



From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Apr 13 18:32:58 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was:  Health system, again)
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>


>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> 
>> wrote:
>> (in answer to a previous post of Lee Corbin's)  Your remark about 
>> "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take into account de 
>> jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the  1960s, and 
>> many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those  institutions 
>> are interrelated - and not all dead.

> ### But given the context of this discussion - note that the Jim Crow laws 
> were enacted by, guess what, the government. So the high likelihood that 
> immoral laws would be enacted because of regulatory capture is another 
> argument *against* the government. In case of slavery, regulatory capture 
> was achieved by a minority of wealthy landowners who maintained the system 
> long after it became unpopular among the majority of Southern population. 
> Slavery wouldn't have survived as long as it did if not for the existence 
> of the US government.

If you are counting in the opinion of the slaves themselves, perhaps a case 
could be made that slavery was unpopular - but slavery was quite accepted 
and popular by "the majority of [White] Southern population."  (I suppose 
apologists for the Confederacy would like to have one think otherwise ...).

And it wasn't only the "minority of wealthy landowners" who profited from 
slavery- early America's economy grew and prospered greatly from slavery 
(free labor! free labor! how can any economic system beat that?) .

In so-called third-world countries where one finds slavery in the world 
these days, one also finds weak and ineffectual governments.  What does this 
say about the role of government?  What does this indicate about leaving 
things to the whimsies of "the people?" (IMHO, without the intervention of 
some sort of human rights legislation, one cannot make a good case for 
leaving things to "human nature" ... can you?)

Olga

> Rafal
>
>>
>>  Not that they're exempt from condemnation, but many "non-western 
>> nations"
>>  out there now don't pretend to be democracies - we USAmericans are (and
>>  were) supposed to be a democracy.  That put us then (and puts us now) at 
>> a
>>  different, and higher, standard.
>>
>>  I am an immigrant (and naturalized citizen) of the USA.  I like it here. 
>> I
>>  can't think of any other place I'd rather live.  I like the idea of 
>> "nation
>>  of nations" that we have going here.  I would like to see this country
>>  strive for greatness - but, in looking at the past, you're not going to 
>> find
>>  it (IMHO).
>>
>>  To garble a phrase Quentin Crisp used in The Naked Civil Servant:  There 
>> was
>>  no great shining country (and no shining city on the hill, either - 
>> except
>>  in Ronald Reagan movies).
>>
>>  Olga
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  extropy-chat mailing list
>>  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
> Chief Clinical Officer,
> Gencia Corporation
> 706 B Forest St.
>
> Charlottesville, VA 22903
>
> tel: (434) 295-4800
>
> fax: (434) 295-4951
>
>
>
> This electronic message transmission contains information from the
> biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or
> privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the
> individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use
> of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have
> received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by
> telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail
> (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 11:04:57 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:04:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Against government science funding was Re: New Hope for
	Alzheimer's Disease Vaccine
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804130744o260c18aaw1946f2cf51fa814@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc60804080746q7764cbc3v5d8890fb707a1f7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804090101m651cb52v14ba538dde5e6de3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804130744o260c18aaw1946f2cf51fa814@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804150404j78cf606cmdc28f2ef5d460c2d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 4:44 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that while war is a very ugly thing, scientific spinoffs from
> military research have been hugely beneficial to society in general.

Whatever one may think of First and Second and Cold War, they have
corresponded to periods of accelerated technological progress. Much of
that progress needed not even being "spinned off", as for instance
transportation, communication, information or energy technological
breakthrough are immediately applicable to both the military and civil
sectors.

Stefano Vaj


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 15 11:41:44 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:41:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
Message-ID: <00cf01c89eed$b5e37680$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Olga and Rafal both make good points.

But I've been meaning to address something else for a while.  Earlier this
year someone here opined that the main reason that slavery was
ended in the west was that it was becoming economically unviable.

In fact, it was a moral revolution among people mainly in Brittain,
and to a lesser extent in the U.S.  At no trifling cost, the British
people supported their navy in the early 1800s patroling up and
down the African coast. Slavery was ended in the West because
those people (yessss, I'll dare say it, the most culturally advanced
in the world at the time), reviled it.  

And a bit later, it could be said that the Abolitionists in the U.S.
caused the War Between the States.

Lee


From ain_ani at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 15 13:34:57 2008
From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:34:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
Message-ID: <792932.93861.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee,

I've taken a while to ponder on these issues and work out exactly what i want to say in the way that will encourage least confusion. Hopefully, this time, i will succeed!

Lee says

>> I think maybe it's an oxymoron to talk about conceiving
>> what something looks like outside of perception.
>
>I'm not really talking about perception *at all*.  You brought
>it up.

...and...

>I'm not interested in appearance either!  :-)  Don't you
>think that there were G2 stars before there was any
>life in our solar system?  (And, contra SETI, say not
>within a billion light years?)  You really don't think
>that it's possible for two things to be *intrinsically*
>similar without anyone or anything observing or knowing
>about it?  Surely you admit that carbon atoms in Andromeda
>are pretty damned similar to carbon atoms in Jupiter, and
>were long, long, before there might have been any observer
>anywhere. "Appearance" is IMO entirely moot.

I think this is a key area where we're disagreeing. I think what I need to say here is that I don't have any belief either way about whether there were really stars before we perceived them. I'm happy enough to stick to what I perceive. I think I'd actually say that to do anything else is absolutely impossible, and...probably...unanswerable. It's not only unknowable, but it's a non-question. I hope this is clear. It's like asking what something looks like outside of subjective perception. It can't be done. To ask such a question merely shows a misunderstanding about what "looking like" means. It's not a question that can have any meaningful answer, even though grammatically the question seems to make sense, it actually only represents a misuse of language. To ask a question like "do objects have similarity outside of perception?" seems close to being a nonsensical question, one which cannot be answered either yes or no. The question of objective
properties is one I think we're foolish to discuss, it's an angels on the head of a pin issue. What we classify as something's essential qualities may well be not even 'visible' to another consciousness. But those properties being visible or not depends on consciousness perceiving them. But crucially, we can only think about objects using notions of perception via subjective consciousness. This is why I am surprised that you claim not to be interested in perception or appearance, but...how else do we assess things???

>But our language need not attempt (in fact it should *never*
>attempt) precisely delineated objects (not, at least outside
>mathematics).  Anyone who thinks that "1956 For Fairlane
>4 Door Town Sedan Auto Trans with V8" precisely
>delineates anything is deeply mistaken.  Korzybski seems
>to have devoted the entire 1933 "Science and Sanity" to
>depictions and explanations of levels of abstraction. The
>great book by Weinberg "Levels of Knowing and Existence:
>Studies in General Semantics" (1959) also said the important
>part.

>So when one of us says "Jupiter" we should not suppose him
>to refer to some weird possibly very bogus concept of the
>thing that he has.  If he were to talk about "manned voyages
>to Jupiter" it would be decidedly insane (hence Korzybski's
>Title "Science and Sanity") to take him to be referring to his
>concept (who would want a manned voyage to his brain?).
>He is referring to the unknown (in detail) thing that is *out
>there*.  And you do too!  All the time!  Whenever you 
>speak to others in daily life, you are trying to refer, to point,
>to something outside your skin---except in weird philosophic
>discussions where for reasons unknown to me, people 
>suddenly think that realistic language is "naive" or something.

I completely agree with your emphasis on the way we commonly use language. i think this focus on utility is something that linguistic philosophy has often failed to appreciate. I also agree that we can only correctly use language when we stop trying, as you say, to precisely define things. But do you not see that this is because the reality fails to match up, to the degree which we precisely define our concepts? To talk of Jupiter only makes sense when we use a vague utilitarian (functionalist) notion of what we mean (ie, an everyday-language notion). If we try to make a precise definition of what "Jupiter" is, we face all kinds of problems about where exactly we draw the line and say, "this electron is now too far away from that one and therefore is not part of Jupiter", and "at x point in time this coalescing cloud of matter is not yet Jupiter". We use language in a functional way and everyone knows what we mean. It is when we attempt to apply
language precisely to reality that it stops working. And this is, I think, most evident when we use concept-words such as "I". I've kept saying that my point is really a trivial one when applied to something like Jupiter - it makes no difference to the way we live our lives that there is not a precise definable Jupiter "out there". However, when we realise that "I" is just as much an ill-defined word which lumps together a whole bundle of different stuff without any neat boundaries or clear cut definitions, we then realise that what we take to be "me" in common-sense everyday usage is actually an awful lot fuzzier and trickier than we keep assuming. This really is my issue with the uploading thing, that it assumes there's a fairly neat entity called "me" which can be instantiated in different ways. The same issue has caused us centuries of dilemma over the "mind-body problem" when in fact the ability to distinguish mind from body is a
facet of the way our language works. If we stop thinking in neat, precise words suddenly that division falls apart, and we realise that there's just the life that we live, without any of these neat boxes we keep trying to fit things into.

>Likewise, "Napoleon" should refer to the now quite dead
>man born in 1769 on Corsica who ruled France from 1795
>to 1815 and who died on St. Helena in 1821.

>*That* is what the term "Napoleon" should refer to. Not 
>anyone's concept.  Not any perception.  Not any appearance.
>Of course, no knowledge is certain;  "all knowledge is 
>conjectural", as the good philosophers who adopt PCR 
>know very well.  (See Bartley, PCR.)

To clear this up, in case what I've been meaning is not now clear (I really hope it is): It's very easy to say "that man", but it doesn't tell us anything - as soon as we try to narrow that down, as we'd have to in the context of the question you'd posed about someone being convinced he was Napoleon, we ask "what is it that fundamentally constitutes 'that man'?" Is it his thoughts, his body, his biology, his attitudes, his actions, some combination of these...what? And then I think we realise that we don't have any agreed upon definition of what we mean by "that person", or "me". We usually know what we mean in most everyday circumstances, but in issues like uploading our usual concepts get stretched and we suddenly have to decide to either think our ideas out more precisely, or...not...

BUT i question whether any linguistic definition will completely suffice because, quite simply, reality is too complex too be neatly and perspicuously compartmentalised into our language. To compartmentalise at all is to reduce from the fullness of objective reality.


>> I refer you to cybernetics here. While observing Jupiter, you and
>> Jupiter become part of a single system.
>
>That really is pure nonsense. There are some very unhelpful results
>in quantum mechanics that should not be taken too literally (just
>as Einstein's relativity theory has been grossly misused). Jupiter
>is located at no less than 4 astronomical units from Earth, and it
>is impossible for you and Jupiter to compose any part of a larger
>system when you happen to glance at it. It's not *useful* in any
>way to suppose that they do. There is no physics in which it is
>useful to consider you being a single system (again, outside an
>extremely narrow interpretation of QM). This is the sort of 
>"insanity" that really used to upset Korzybski so bad---now me,
>I'm not so upset, because I realize that Sapir-Whorf was wrong
>and words don't really have as much influence on our actions as
>those guys thought. In other words, you,  Michael go about all
>day long being quite sane and making perfect sense, except when
>(IMO) you get into discussions like this and start saying things
>about Napoleon or Jupiter that 99% of people would think is
>crazy.

I'm surprised by this answer. What are the rules for a system then? I thought that this had all been battled out really well at the Macy conferences when they devised reflexivity. It seems to me, as soon as we start thinking about systems, either everything that can be conceptually grouped together in any interacting way is conceptually a single system, or nothing is. You and Jupiter are just as much a single system as your brain and your hand. If there's interaction there, then it's a system. There's no hard and fast rules, because whether something is a 'system' or not isn't an objective property, it's merely a way of grouping elements which interact. and observer and observed form an interacting system. The observer is always part of the system being observed. Why are you quoting Norbert Wiener, if you disagree with one of his fundamental principles?

>You don't draw any distinct "boundary between the
>observer and observed"?  Never?  I would venture
>that you do *indeed* draw such a boundary in 99%
>of your waking life. If you did not act as though you
>were drawing such a boundary, you'd be killed in
>traffic right off.  You wouldn't be able to tell yourself
>apart from what you were reading. Or emailing. Surely
>you admit that a *huge* part of the time you do draw
>such a boundary. 

This again is a matter of utility. I completely agree that we accept a common-sense point of view for 99% of our everyday actions. the world would fall apart if we didn't. But that doesn't mean they cover the other 1%, and we are just as incorrect if we try to force everyday functional usage of concepts to cover the remaining non-everyday situations. The problem comes when people think that one set of rules covers everything. The common-sense is not the be-all-end-all (nothing is).

>>>We progress best when we confine our descriptions and ideas
>>>to what is objective.
>> 
>> Can you offer a means for doing this?
>
>Yes.  (1) avoid philosophy classes (2) stick to science and
>especially to common sense (3) avoid fancy navel studying
>involving "subjectivity" "observer/observed" distinctions
>(4) avoid reading about the philosophical implications of
>relativity or quantum mechanics (5) try to refer to things
>the same way a child (who has loads of common sense)
>does, e.g., "there is a car", "there is a dog", etc.  (6)
>Avoid referring to "perceptions of cars", "perceptions of
>dogs", etc. (8) Avoid ever thinking about or mentioning
>*qualia*, a total philosophic death-spiral if there ever was
>one (9) avoid thinking about what consciousness "is" (the
>dreaded "is"-of-identity that Korzybski and the general
>semanticists so declaimed against)  (10) adopt whenever
>possible the daily meanings of words and concepts, and
>ask a bright twelve year old if something starts to sound 
>confusing, how we should think about it,  and those are
>just the first ten things I happened to think of.

Very good. I presume you did in fact understand the irony of my comment. Just in case, I'll reiterate that we can't think outside of our heads. Arguing that we should think only about what is objective is a nonsense. That said, I completely agree with most of your methods. In terms of everyday life people get on much better doing exactly as you suggest. However, fooling them into thinking that they're somehow being "objective" by doing this is to shortchange them. They're merely following one set of rules for approaching the world, and any approach is just another set of rules. This, I think, is what's most important for us all to realise. 

I think in general, all I'm trying to say is that there is a mismatch,  a weakness between our language and reality (and language is what we use to think with - we articulate the world via our language). This is not to cast aspersions on reality, or even to broach the realist-antirealist question...it is more to simply accept that perception and thought are conditioned by a lot more processses than merely the external matter which we perceive. We do not approach reality with a blank slate, we come at it with a set of boxes already made up which we then filter our perceptions through. Once we realise this, we stop thinking that what we see and experience of the world can ever be entirely uncoloured, because that colouring is part of who we are, and its what makes "my world" what it is, and makes it different from "your world". But this in no way affects "the world" which goes on untouched by the boxes (such as Jupiter or Napoleon) which we filter the mass
of material events into.


I think my head may explode soon if I keep on with this much longer...but I guess it's good for me to
think things through from different angles :)

But, I think on most of central issues we agree. I hope I've made this clear. It's really only tertiary differences where we think about the same things in slightly different ways, it seems to me.

Mike


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From max at maxmore.com  Tue Apr 15 13:49:55 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:49:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was:  Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <20080415134956.HGQL26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>

At 01:32 PM 4/13/2008, Olga Bourlin wrote:
>From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
>To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>
>
>And it wasn't only the "minority of wealthy landowners" who profited from
>slavery- early America's economy grew and prospered greatly from slavery
>(free labor! free labor! how can any economic system beat that?) .

By having non-free labor in which you invest further resources to 
develop human capital. The resulting labor force costs considerably 
more, but also is far more productive and skilled.

Max


Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 14:20:31 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:20:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <20080415134956.HGQL26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<20080415134956.HGQL26724.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804150720r7ab05610hfe301d1640599144@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>  By having non-free labor in which you invest further resources to
>  develop human capital. The resulting labor force costs considerably
>  more, but also is far more productive and skilled.

It remains true that slavery-based economies denote decadent societies
that end up not performing very well from an economic or political
point of view.

It remains to be discussed whether it depends on a few obvious
economic mechanisms, such as the lesser incentive for taylorism and
technological optimisation, or, as in Nietzsche, on the "moral of
slaves" empoisoning the society of their masters, but the phenomenon
seems well established enough.

Stefano Vaj


From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Tue Apr 15 14:26:36 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:26:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<20080402010717.UAMN90.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@D840DTB1.maxmore.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404103310.0253c128@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>



Olga Bourlin wrote:
> From: "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>
>
>   
>>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> (in answer to a previous post of Lee Corbin's)  Your remark about 
>>> "institutions dead nearly 150 years ago" does not take into account de 
>>> jure segregation that existed in parts of the USA into the  1960s, and 
>>> many instances of de facto segregation since then.  Those  institutions 
>>> are interrelated - and not all dead.
>>>       
>
>
>   

Of course the question we are really trying to answer is whether a 
totally free market will always be superior to a market that is managed 
and manipulated by government. If we were just talking about the past, 
then it would be obvious that government regulation is necessary. 
Without labor laws, people were working for pennies - or even as slaves. 
Without the FDA, companies were free to market any kind of snake oil 
they could. The free market didn't build the interstate highway system 
we all enjoy and I doubt it would have been built without government 
intervention. And without compulsory education there is no telling where 
we would be at the moment but I am sure evolution would be taught even 
less. Most of the large bloated bureaucracies were created in response 
to the shortcomings of the free market.

But we're not talking about the past. We're talking about the future. In 
the past, if someone was using a cheap process to create a toy which 
left lead in the paint that could harm children, there was no way to 
quickly prove it and notify people. If an employer wanted to pay pennies 
the people couldn't hop on the internet and find a job in another city 
that paid twice as much because they wanted better people. The free flow 
of information offsets most - if not all - of the benefits of the 
bureaucratic systems that are in place. A free market can only work when 
there is a free and rapid flow of information. Consumer Reports is a 
service I subscribe to and it is much more effective than the consumer 
product safety commission could ever hope to be and I'm sure you can 
figure out all the reasons why.

My point is that it's probably a waste of time debating the free market 
of the past as there are significant differences today. What we should 
be focusing on is how we can utilize these technologies today to create 
a more efficient system than exists now.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 14:48:11 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:48:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804150748x4ad5f222h2d193e9bf65ca1e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Kevin Freels wrote:
<snip>
>  My point is that it's probably a waste of time debating the free market of
> the past as there are significant differences today. What we should be
> focusing on is how we can utilize these technologies today to create a more
> efficient system than exists now.
> _______________________________________________


Yea, the web is wonderful. You don't have to tour round in a wagon
selling snake-oil anymore. You can just set up a website or use ebay
and sell snake-oil to millions.  That's progress!

'Get your snake-oil here! Banned by t' guvernint who want to restrict
your freedom!'

Any idiot can type into google. You need an education *first* to be
know what is crap and what might be useful.

To try to reduce the evil in society, two things are required.
First, educate the population. Obviously this has failed for many, and
some are incapable. But we tried.
Second, pass laws banning the worst of the con tricks and frauds.
Obviously this also has great failings. But we tried.

You can't protect everyone from every possible evil.
But that doesn't mean the only alternative is a gangster-led free-for-all.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 15 14:42:10 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:42:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
Message-ID: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
Read it all:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351287,00.html
 
 
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 16:01:09 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:01:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was:  Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080404113640.0255eb30@satx.rr.com>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

>
>  If you are counting in the opinion of the slaves themselves, perhaps a case
> could be made that slavery was unpopular - but slavery was quite accepted
> and popular by "the majority of [White] Southern population."  (I suppose
> apologists for the Confederacy would like to have one think otherwise ...).

### The way I heard it, crackerjacks hated blacks but didn't really
like slavery. They saw slavery as a form of competition for them,
since slaves supported large landowners who diminished the political
power of white, non-slave-owning farmers. There was definitely
virulent racism but this is not the same as support for slavery.
-------------------------

>
>  And it wasn't only the "minority of wealthy landowners" who profited from
> slavery- early America's economy grew and prospered greatly from slavery
> (free labor! free labor! how can any economic system beat that?) .

### I doubt that. Slaves are almost exclusively used in agriculture,
therefore their economic impact is only some reduction of food prices,
and in some cases (as in the South), cotton. Sustained economic
growth, however, is more a function of non-agricultural production and
innovation. This is why the thousands of slave- and serf-owning
societies (Vikings, Romans, Egyptian, Greeks, Arabs, almost every
major culture up to the XVIth century) didn't prosper that much, until
capitalism was invented, and as a side effect, ended slavery.
----------------------
>
>  In so-called third-world countries where one finds slavery in the world
> these days, one also finds weak and ineffectual governments.  What does this
> say about the role of government?  What does this indicate about leaving
> things to the whimsies of "the people?" (IMHO, without the intervention of
> some sort of human rights legislation, one cannot make a good case for
> leaving things to "human nature" ... can you?)
>
### First of all, you find absence of capitalism there. The government
will do whatever the power-wielders want it to do. If they can benefit
from slavery, government will support slavery. "The people", or at
least some of them, make up the government, so, just as you can't make
a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you can't wring honest laws out of a
government supported by nasty people.

Abolition of slavery happens only if the society develops the legal
norms of respect for private property, free exchange, which induce
economic growth in excess of what can be achieved by brute
exploitation of slaves and serfs. People's hearts follow the money -
in a capitalist society you can make more money being an honest
merchant or businessman, and this incentive leads humans to reject
slavery, first out of convenience, later just because everybody else
says it's bad.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 16:25:17 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:25:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
In-Reply-To: <4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804150925t501a503bodb480b624be40e62@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Kevin Freels
<kevinfreels at insightbb.com> wrote:

>  Of course the question we are really trying to answer is whether a totally
> free market will always be superior to a market that is managed and
> manipulated by government. If we were just talking about the past, then it
> would be obvious that government regulation is necessary. Without labor
> laws, people were working for pennies - or even as slaves.

### It is absolutely clear that labor laws do not increase the mean
real incomes (just leaf through an economics handbook). The prime
determinant of wages is *labor productivity*, all else has a
relatively minor impact. People in the past were very unproductive
(despite toiling from dawn till dusk), now thanks to an accumulation
of knowledge, institutional arrangements and tangible capital, workers
are hundreds of times more productive, which in almost all situations
leads to increased wages. Labor laws are just leftover roadblocks,
initially invented to keep blacks out of the North, now existing
mostly due to leftist hypocrisy and widespread economic illiteracy.

-------------------

 Without the FDA,
> companies were free to market any kind of snake oil they could.

### So? You got a problem with it?

---------------------


The free
> market didn't build the interstate highway system we all enjoy and I doubt
> it would have been built without government intervention.

### Of course it would. The free market built the railway system. Why
not highways?

---------------------

 And without
> compulsory education there is no telling where we would be at the moment but
> I am sure evolution would be taught even less.

### Without compulsory education the young ones would not be stuffed
full of government propaganda. That's a clear gain. It's better to be
ignorant of evolution, rather than to think  that threatening other
people into submission is the right way of running a society.

-----------------
Most of the large bloated
> bureaucracies were created in response to the shortcomings of the free
> market.

### Most of the bloated bureaucracies are the cause of whatever is
blamed on the market. But, of course, whoever allowed government
propaganda to seep into his mind at school, may think otherwise.

------------------------
>
>  My point is that it's probably a waste of time debating the free market of
> the past as there are significant differences today.

### Nah, debating the need to eschew violence, and how to build a
society where violence doesn't pay, is always useful.

Rafal


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 15 17:13:15 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:13:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com><038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><4804BB1C.4040607@insightbb.com>
	<ee50357e0804150748x4ad5f222h2d193e9bf65ca1e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01c89f1c$acc4d2e0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

BillK writes

(Incidently, Max and Stefano each score 100% in my book
on each of their posts:  perfectly worded, succinct, and
totally correct.)

> To try to reduce the evil in society, two things are required.
> First, educate the population. Obviously this has failed for
> many, and some are incapable. But we tried.

Yes, though it does sound as if you want the government to
use force to achieve these attempts at educating the populace.
I actually agree with you---except that I consider it to be a
function of the existing level of sophistication and existing
level of advancement of society/culture. It was more necessary
in the past, somewhat less necessary now, and presumably very
much less in the future.

For example, if the people are free enough (have had a tradition
of freedom long enough and strong enough), then it is better to
leave it entirely to the free market:  people can choose to educate
their children (or not) however or wherever they want.

As another example, if the children were all bright and happened
to be born in a rich society with many interesting possibilities,
organized education of any sort may be superfluous.

> Second, pass laws banning the worst of the con tricks and frauds.
> Obviously this also has great failings. But we tried.

Same as the above: at some points in history, it seems to me that
it was necessary. But we should try to evolve towards a point
where it won't be necessary. And it may not be necessary today
in advanced countries:  reputation systems may already be strong
enough in the U.S., Oceania, and Europe to obviate laws in this
area.

Lee

> You can't protect everyone from every possible evil.
> But that doesn't mean the only alternative is a gangster-led free-for-all.



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Apr 15 17:36:26 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:36:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
References: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <010801c89f1f$bae98d90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Spike writes

> Read it all:
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351287,00.html

Looking at the YouTube link, I was more impressed with
several other ones.

E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiMhnJyM3PQ&feature=related

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 15 17:54:27 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:54:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<058601c899fa$78be72c0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>

Rafal wrote:
### First of all, you find absence of capitalism there. The government
will do whatever the power-wielders want it to do. If they can benefit
from slavery, government will support slavery. "The people", or at
least some of them, make up the government, so, just as you can't make
a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you can't wring honest laws out of a
government supported by nasty people.
>>>

The fictional nasty people of S.M. Stirling's Draka Empire alternate history
sf series is an example of this.  The Draka are in some ways the modern
equivalent of Sparta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination

The Draka Empire timeline as envisioned by the author:

http://users.accesscomm.ca/geis/draka/history.html

Taken from "Problems with the Draka timeline:
*6.* The Draka manage to develop technology and industry at a rapid pace,
despite having the worst sort of society for it. They industrialize despite
having cheap slave labor which can produce the products of early industry
more cheaply than early industry, and despite having the majority of their
population in such a state of low income that there is little internal
market for the products of industry (the Draka themselves will demand a lot
of goods, but mostly high-quality luxury stuff, not the basic products of
early industry). In addition they manage great technological development
despite the majority of their populace being kept in a delibertely
uneducated state (and brutally repressed at that), and the remainder of the
population emphasizing military prowess in the education system and in life.
I'm not saying that a slave society couldn't manage to tolerably keep up
technologically, but it is unlikely to become a world technological leader -
especially when starting essentially from scratch.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/analyses/Drakaproblems.html
A "realistic" timeline taking into consideration the above criticism:

http://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/timelines/Alternatedraka.html

Will *our* United States, Europe and India fare better than the Alliance
did?  I hope so.

John Grigg
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 16 03:40:13 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:40:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <010801c89f1f$bae98d90$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> From: ... Lee Corbin
...
> Looking at the YouTube link, I was more impressed with 
> several other ones... Lee

Aint YouTube cool?  If you have time for only one video, do view the second
one only.  If you have time for two, view the first one first, to get you in
the mood.  That piece that Tom Cruise recently made about Co$ may become the
most parodied video in history: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r2rIf3k6vE&feature=related

For those Co$ers who blow, I propose as a substitute the worship of Pat
Condell.  Condellology would be popular among transhumanists methinks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r2rIf3k6vE&feature=related



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 16 05:32:58 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

...
> ...That piece that Tom 
> Cruise recently made about Co$ may become the most parodied 
> video in history...


I don't know which was the critical tipping point for Co$: their prosecution
of Keith on phony charges which really stirred the internet community and
resulted in publicity that cannot even be bought, or the Cruise video which
is so profoundly absurd on so many levels, it is its own parody.

Here it is, in case you missed it the first time around: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

This video causes one to wonder how screwed up can a person be, and still
function at their job?  Perhaps being a Hollyweird actor is a special case,
which actually requires some degree of screwed uptitude.  

On the other hand, perhaps lives were saved by this video.  Imagine driving
in or around Hollyweird, get in a serious accident, wake up surrounded by
paramedics, Porsche pulls up and out jumps an actor, pushing the
professionals aside while insisting he is the only one who can really help.
You beg someone to have mercy just strangle you to hasten the inevitable and
end your misery.  Perhaps proles in southern Taxifornia will drive more
carefully with such a threat on the horizon.

spike




 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 16 08:44:40 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 01:44:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Uploading and selfhood
References: <792932.93861.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018801c89f9e$a88affb0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Mike writes

> Lee, I've taken a while to ponder on these issues and work
> out exactly what i want to say in the way that will encourage
> least confusion. Hopefully, this time, I will succeed!

What an optimist!  :-)  It is in the nature of these discussions
to be intractable. What really happens is that after a while
it dies down, and the participants slowly over the next weeks,
months, or years unconsciously absorb what they gleaned,
and reflexively anticipate such other POVs in the future.

> >I'm not interested in appearance either!  :-)  Don't you
> >think that there were G2 stars before there was any
> >life in our solar system?  (And, contra SETI, say not
> >within a billion light years?)  You really don't think
> >that it's possible for two things to be *intrinsically*
> >similar without anyone or anything observing or knowing
> >about it?  Surely you admit that carbon atoms in Andromeda
> >are pretty damned similar to carbon atoms in Jupiter, and
> >were long, long, before there might have been any observer
> >anywhere. "Appearance" is IMO entirely moot.
>
> I think this is a key area where we're disagreeing. I think what
> I need to say here is that I don't have any belief either way
> about whether there were really stars before we perceived them.

All of our knowledge is conjectural, but we follow our best
theories of science. (We also follow the most reputable advice
we can get for how our digestion works, or where to go to
find a neighborhood porn shop.) Science makes the issues
clear.

According to our best theories, dinosaurs once roamed the
Earth, and before that---again, according to our very best
ideas of knowledge, our best theoretical judgments---the
Earth was molten and had formed about 5 billion years ago
around the same time that the sun did.

Now this knowledge is really as firm or firmer than your
knowledge about George W. Bush. Was there a GWB
before he was perceived by you, or by the media, or
by his mother?  Well---the possibility certainly exists!
He could have been adopted, or (very unlikely) delivered
to Earth by especially mischievous Martians.

Therefore: it simply defies our best understandings when
you say

> I don't have any belief either way about whether there
> were really stars before we perceived them.

and furthermore, I don't believe you. In *any* other discussion
with your friends or family, you, being the well-educated type,
might demur if someone disputed evolution, or said that the
Earth was only 6000 years old, or that the universe did not
contain anything before there was an Earth. Hence you *really*
do believe that there were stars before they were perceived by
(a) you, (b) us,  (c) humankind, (d) evolved aliens.

> I'm happy enough to stick to what I perceive. I think I'd
> actually say that to do anything else is absolutely impossible,
> and...probably...unanswerable.

I detect a quest for *certainty* here. No knowledge (with the
*possible* exception of Descartes' cogito ergo sum) is certain,
it's conjectures all the way down.

> It's not only unknowable, but it's a non-question. I hope this
> is clear. It's like asking what something looks like outside of
> subjective perception.

Maybe I'm confused, but are we still talking about whether there
were stars before anyone perceived them?  Or whether the Earth
was molten before we observed it?

> To ask a question like "do objects have similarity outside of
> perception?" seems close to being a nonsensical question,
> one which cannot be answered either yes or no.

Then it all hinges on whether you believe the sort of "fact" that
stars existed before the Earth cooled. As soon as you admit that,
or just listen to yourself as you tell your friends and neighbors
some fragments of your (relatively vast) knowledge about things
you have not yourself directly perceived, then you'll agree that
the question does make sense.

> The question of objective properties is one I think we're
> foolish to discuss, it's an angels on the head of a pin issue.
> What we classify as something's essential qualities may
> well be not even 'visible' to another consciousness.

True, but Maxwell and Hertz could start talking about EM waves
"just as if there really were such things" that certainly were not
visible to anyone's consciousness but their own. But because
people in daily life are realists, other ears picked up on this:
"Whazzat they're saying? Ether waves?  Hmm. They really
exist?  Hmm. Maybe I could build an apparatus and test for
them!"

> BUT I question whether any linguistic definition will completely
> suffice because, quite simply, reality is too complex too be neatly
> and perspicuously compartmentalised into our language.

Totally correct!  I concur completely!  I often rail against
definitions.  By the very nature of abstracting, we lose (and
must always lose some parts of reality).  Consider

Eternal Truth #1:  Nothing is simple.
Eternal Truth #2:  Every statement must be further modified
                           (in order to become more accurate)

> To compartmentalise at all is to reduce from the fullness of objective reality.

Yes.  When I refer to GWB, I do not and cannot include the
complex reality of the man. But that's the way it is. We do the
best that we can.  And it all fits the picture of who we are and
how we evolved.

> > That really is pure nonsense. There are some very unhelpful results
> > in quantum mechanics that should not be taken too literally (just
> > as Einstein's relativity theory has been grossly misused). Jupiter
> > is located at no less than 4 astronomical units from Earth, and it
> > is impossible for you and Jupiter to compose any part of a larger
> > system when you happen to glance at it. It's not *useful* in any
> > way to suppose that they do. There is no physics in which it is
> > useful to consider you being a single system (again, outside an
> > extremely narrow interpretation of QM). This is the sort of
> > "insanity" that really used to upset Korzybski so bad---now me,
> > I'm not so upset, because I realize that Sapir-Whorf was wrong
> > and words don't really have as much influence on our actions as
> > those guys thought. In other words, you,  Michael go about all
> > day long being quite sane and making perfect sense, except when
> > (IMO) you get into discussions like this and start saying things
> > about Napoleon or Jupiter that 99% of people would think is crazy.
>
> I'm surprised by this answer. What are the rules for a system then?

A "system"?  I don't know.  I wouldn't know what rules there are for
something as ambiguous as that. Now in QM there are systems, and
the rule is that they include everything that can be described as a
single quantum state. The EPR results suggest that a system can even
be non-local, although David Deutsch disagrees. Anyway, we *rarely*
describe things in most of physics as a single system; usually it's things
interacting with each other, such as a transmission and the drive chain.
Or one molecule and another. Why the need to try to come up with
some idea about two hugely separate things such as you and Jupiter
being part of "the same system"?  Before 20th century gabblespeak,
such a notion would have amazed Galileo. Nor do I think Einstein would
have been able to guess what you are talking about.

> I thought that this had all been battled out really well at the Macy
> conferences when they devised reflexivity.

I never heard of them!  Okay, so google says that there were these
cybernetic conferences starting in 1946.  "Reflexivity"?  These are
really very abstruse things you're bringing in. Are they really necessary
to investigate whether you and the Andromeda galaxy are part of the
same system just because one photon from it enters your eye? Are
they really necessary to be able to decide whether there were stars
before the Earth, or oceans before people?

>  It seems to me, as soon as we start thinking about systems,
> either everything that can be conceptually grouped together
> in any interacting way is conceptually a single system, or
> nothing is.

Here is a brand new concept then:  the union of the southern most
orange on the southern most orange tree in Florida and the sunspot
that is at this moment closest to Earth. Wow!  A brand new system!
There's no utility in it!

> You and Jupiter are just as much a single system as your brain
> and your hand.

I'm not even sure it makes sense to say that my brain and my
hand are a single system. If that's true, and it's true about me
and Jupiter, then every two things in the universe are a single
system?  Or it's only when some intelligence ponders the
connection?

> If there's interaction there, then it's a system.

According to general relativity, matter curves space and so matter
here affects everything in the universe (within 42 billion light years,
so far as influences have been able to get in the past 13.7 billion
years, what with the expaning universe). So every two things or
three things or four things..., within 42 billion light years is a system.
How useful can the idea be when it applies to everything?

> There's no hard and fast rules, because whether something is
> a 'system' or not isn't an objective property, it's merely a way
> of grouping elements which interact.

I'll agree with that!  I sense that the word "system" is being overused.
We *can* talk about properties, unlike "system", that are objective,
or do you think we can?  I would say that it's objective whether or
not some people have been to Hawaii. In fact, it's objectively true
that some people have been to Hawaii.

> The observer is always part of the system being observed.
> Why are you quoting Norbert Wiener, if you disagree with
> one of his fundamental principles?

Hmm. Didn't know I was quoting him.  I don't think that that
principle makes much sense in daily life.  And if you depend
on it, my fear is that the term "system" starts to take on a
weird status. Try telling the judge that you and the traffic light
formed a part of the same system, and so you could not have
run it because you were it!

> I completely agree that we accept a common-sense point
> of view for 99% of our everyday actions. the world would
> fall apart if we didn't. But that doesn't mean they cover the
> other 1%,

I agree.  And so we have to do some arm-waving, and sometimes
a little special jargon for the 1%.  And even there, it's best not to
go all mathematical and start defining things. Keep the language
light, rephrase as often as possible, never depend on a single word
or concept if at all possible.  (I agree that when writing Lectures on
Physics, Feynman indeed did depend a lot on the term "energy".
But he explained all that as well as possible using different terms
and a lot of commonsense daily language.)

> and we are just as incorrect if we try to force everyday functional
> usage of concepts to cover the remaining non-everyday situations.

Okay---so *what* exactly were we arguing about that was not a
everyday situation.  Jupiter?  Napoleon?  Whether stars exist
independent of us?  I could go on:  Is there a moon when no one
is looking at it? (YES!)  Does a tree falling in the forest make a
sound when no one's around (see Feynman, but the answer is
YES!).

> The problem comes when people think that one set of
> rules covers everything. The common-sense is not the
> be-all-end-all (nothing is).

I'll agree.  But we should get clear on the simplest things first. Then
we can investigate the Macy conference weirdness and QM and
reflexivity and self-transcendence and uploading, etc.

> Just in case, I'll reiterate that we can't think outside
> of our heads.

Yes.

> Arguing that we should think only about what is objective
> is a nonsense.

I agree.  We should only talk about what is objective, though,
at least if we're trying to find out what is so. (Yes, two good
ol' boys can get together and discuss in very subjective terms
the qualities of other races, or who gives best pussy, etc., but
normally we all should be talking about that which is objective,
because the subjective is not accessible to those we're trying
to communicate with.)

> That said, I completely agree with most of your methods.
> In terms of everyday life people get on much better doing
> exactly as you suggest. However, fooling them into thinking
> that they're somehow being "objective" by doing this is to
> shortchange them. They're merely following one set of rules
> for approaching the world, and any approach is just another
> set of rules. This, I think, is what's most important for us all to realise.

I agree, and also enthusiastically agree with your concluding words:

> I think in general, all I'm trying to say is that there is a mismatch,  a weakness between our language and reality (and language 
> is what we use to think with - we articulate the world via our language). This is not to cast aspersions on reality, or even to 
> broach the realist-antirealist question...it is more to simply accept that perception and thought are conditioned by a lot more 
> processes than merely the external matter which we perceive. We do not approach reality with a blank slate, we come at it with a 
> set of boxes already made up which we then filter our perceptions through. Once we realise this, we stop thinking that what we see 
> and experience of the world can ever be entirely uncoloured, because that colouring is part of who we are, and its what makes "my 
> world" what it is, and makes it different from "your world". But this in no way affects "the world" which goes on untouched by the 
> boxes (such as Jupiter or Napoleon) which we filter the mass of material events into.
<

> I think my head may explode soon if I keep on with this much
> longer...but I guess it's good for me to think things through
> from different angles :)

I appreciate your patience, and your thick skin.  I know that I
get into rants and start being quite the curmudgeon. So thanks
for not being offended  :)

> But, I think on most of central issues we agree. I hope I've
> made this clear. It's really only tertiary differences where we
> think about the same things in slightly different ways, it seems to me.

Well, this post helped a lot, it seems to me.  When you write about
*experience*:

> Once we realise this, we stop thinking that what we see and
> experience of the world can ever be entirely uncoloured,
> because that colouring is part of who we are, and its what
> makes "my world" what it is, and makes it different from
> "your world". But this in no way affects "the world" which
> goes on untouched by the boxes [concepts?] (such as
> Jupiter or Napoleon) which we filter the mass of material
> events into.

it seems we're indeed not so far apart.

Lee



From estropico at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 13:11:09 2008
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:11:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Tomorrow's technologies emerging today. ExtroBritannia's May
	event.
In-Reply-To: <4eaaa0d90804141132q681ece4cv8ffdf1dd331180e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4eaaa0d90804141132q681ece4cv8ffdf1dd331180e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90804160611s2895ce52kea00f09e00f661f7@mail.gmail.com>

Tomorrow's technologies emerging today - nanotechnology and stem cell
rejuvenation: seizing the opportunity despite the scaremongers

The next ExtroBritannia event is scheduled for Saturday the 10th of
May 2008, 2pm-4pm. Venue: Room 538 (fifth floor), Birkbeck College,
Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX. The event is free and everyone's
welcome.

Come to hear and discuss the exciting possible near-term developments
with some key 21st century technologies. This is not science fiction -
it could be science fact, well within our lifetimes. Nanotech means
manipulating substances at the level of individual molecules, creating
materials and compounds with remarkable properties. Stem cell therapy
has the potential to cure cruel degenerative diseases like Parkinsons
and Motor Neurone Disease. Both technologies deserve to be progressed
carefully and thoughtfully, but also quickly and seriously. In each
case, misguided interventions such as the opposition to the Human
Fertilisation & Embryology bill threaten to frustrate progress and
prolong disease and impoverishment. The speakers describe how we can
seize and guide the opportunity despite the scaremongers.

The meeting is sponsored by the UKTA, the United Kingdom Transhumanist
Association. There is no charge to attend.

Speakers:

Julian Snape: "Latest developments with nanotechnology"

Darren Reynolds: "Reasons to support and improve the Human
Fertilisation & Embryology bill"

Venue:

Birkbeck College - Room 539, 5th floor, Main Building, Torrington
Square (which is a pedestrian-only square), London WC1E 7HX - MAP

The nearest tube station is Russell Square. Come out of the tube
station and turn left, to walk west along Bernard St. Cross over
Herbrand St then Woburn Place and keep walking westwards, on the north
side of the square. Cross Bedford Way, and turn right into Thornhaugh
St, then immediately left to enter Torrington Square through the
pedestrian-only courtyard outside SOAS (the School of Oriental and
African Studies). Veer right and you'll see the main entrance to
Birkbeck College on the left as you walk up Torrington Square. Take
the lift to the 5th floor and follow the signs to room 539.

Discussion is likely to continue after the event in a nearby pub, for
those who are able to stay. There's also the option of joining some of
the UKTA regulars for drinks/lunch beforehand, starting c. 12.30, in
"The Friend At Hand" pub which is situated behind Russell Square tube
station on Herbrand Street. If it's your first ExtroBritannia look out
for a copy of Ending Aging on display on our table.

For the links, see the ExtroBritannia blog:

http://extrobritannia.blogspot.com/2008/04/tomorrows-technologies-emerging-today.html

Cheers,
Fabio


From michaelanissimov at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 13:19:18 2008
From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:19:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>

Current results for the H+ technologies poll at
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720


   - Life Extension (36%, 171 Votes)
   - *Superintelligence (35%, 165 Votes)*
   - Mind Uploading (13%, 64 Votes)
   - Nanotechnology (9%, 44 Votes)
   - Cybernetics (5%, 23 Votes)
   - Other (specify below) (2%, 10 Votes)

Total Voters: *477*
-- 
Michael Anissimov
Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com
http://acceleratingfuture.com
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From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Wed Apr 16 00:13:29 2008
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (Sondre)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:13:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804151509.m3FF8s37028358@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c89f56$b9d161d0$2d742570$@com>

 

<Handwritten content>


 

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: 15. april 2008 16:42
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: [ExI] $ci again

 

 

Read it all:

 

HYPERLINK
"http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351287,00.html"http://www.foxnews.com/s
tory/0,2933,351287,00.html

 

 

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1378 - Release Date: 15.04.2008
09:12


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1378 - Release Date: 15.04.2008
09:12
 
  
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Apr 16 13:55:44 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:55:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080416135545.ODNN22186.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc>

At 08:19 AM 4/16/2008, Michael  wrote:
>Current results for the H+ technologies poll at
><http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720>http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720
>
>    * Life Extension (36%, 171 Votes)
>    * Superintelligence (35%, 165 Votes)
>    * Mind Uploading (13%, 64 Votes)
>    * Nanotechnology (9%, 44 Votes)
>    * Cybernetics (5%, 23 Votes)
>    * Other (specify below) (2%, 10 Votes)

  Thanks for the poll Michael -

Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More, 
BFA, MS, MPhil
University Lecturer
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics
Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 16:00:40 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:00:40 +0200
Subject: [ExI] transhuman technologies poll
In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51ce64f10804111459q6760107bua783f57c50bc35dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<51ce64f10804160619j3e46a003lfe743149b7d2f70a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804160900s1e45d6adide6e584b1c026ad5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Michael Anissimov
<michaelanissimov at gmail.com> wrote:
> Current results for the H+ technologies poll at
> http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=720
>
>
> Life Extension (36%, 171 Votes)
> Superintelligence (35%, 165 Votes)
> Mind Uploading (13%, 64 Votes)
> Nanotechnology (9%, 44 Votes)
> Cybernetics (5%, 23 Votes)
> Other (specify below) (2%, 10 Votes)
>
> Total Voters: 477

As I believe to have already mentioned in another thread, I find it
very interesting that many transhumanists put enhancement (even in the
very specific and debatable form of "superintelligence") at an equal
or even superior level in comparison with longevism, as important a
goal as the latter may be.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 20:42:48 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:42:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
Message-ID: <580930c20804161342o1ffb52d4pdb298459c32b73eb@mail.gmail.com>

Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcoticsJekyll and super-intelligent
HydeBy Chris
Williams<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/>
?
More by this author<http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Chris%20Williams>
Published Thursday 10th April 2008 15:08 GMT
------------------------------
<http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/>

Shocking research by Nature has revealed that many of the world's boffins
are routinely taking psychoactive drugs to boost their brain power.

An "informal survey" by the leading research rag has uncovered an epidemic
of drug use in scientific circles. One in five respondents to the survey
reported they had used cognition-enhancing prescription drugs for
non-medical reasons.

Specifically, ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) drug Ritalin,
sleep medication Provigil, and beta blocking heart drugs are all reportedly
guzzled to improve focus, concentration, and memory. More than one third had
obtained their fix from an internet pharmacy. All but one of the 14 British
scientists who responded ordered online.

The enhanced eggheads reported side effects including sleeplessness,
jitteriness, anxiety, and headaches.

But the poll also revealed that most boffins have no problem with their
competitors obtaining a chemical advantage. Four in five said healthy adults
should be allowed to turbo charge their own brain if they want to.

Boffinry's - and indeed the public's - fancy for personal enhancement is
nothing new, of course.

In 2006, Sir David King, then the UK government's top scientific advisor,
briefed <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/drug_enhancement_briefing/>ministers
at Downing Street on what was dubbed "cosmetic neurology". He
warned that regulators will have to be ready for an explosion in public
interest in the concept over the next 20 years.

In November, the British Medical Association
attempted<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/08/bma_brain_boost_ethics/>to
kickstart debate on the ethics around mental meddling. "It should be
remembered that people are willing to endure major surgery to enhance their
visual appearance, so they may be willing to do so to improve their
cognitive ability as well, if the techniques prove to be effective," the
doctors' group said.

Read Nature's own report on its findings
here<http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080409/full/452674a.html>.
And step away from the coffee machine. (R)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/

BTW, "boffins" seem to mean scientists in British English. :-)
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Apr 16 20:45:33 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:45:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Japan turning itself into Cyberman machine civilisation
Message-ID: <580930c20804161345v22655c42p3b3a1bfb8d285c29@mail.gmail.com>

Japan turning itself into Cyberman machine civilisationThree million
converted to undying robotoids by 2025By Lewis
Page<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/09/japan_goes_cyberman/>
?
More by this author <http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Lewis%20Page>
Published Wednesday 9th April 2008 09:03 GMT
------------------------------
<http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/>

Enormous numbers of people are being replaced by (or perhaps converted into)
robots, reports suggest, and the trend is set to continue.

Indeed, the issue has become so salient in Japan that a specialist
thinktank, the Machine Industry Memorial Foundation (MIMF?), has been set up
to monitor the gradual infiltration of society by mechanoid impostors.

Reuters reports that MIMF's latest estimates predict that 3.5 million
Japanese workers - nearly three per cent of the population - will actually
be automatic surrogates as of 2025.

In fact, the idea is that this is positive - the greying of Japan's
population is well known, as is its failure to reproduce itself.

The Reuters scribes seem to imply that, rather than being invaded from
within by an unwelcome droid fifth column, Japan will willingly convert
itself from a flesh-based to a machine civilisation as a matter of choice,
rather as the Cybermen (of *Doctor Who* fame) did in their remote past.

"Robots are important because they could help to alleviate... shortage of
the labour force," said Takao Kobayashi of MIMF.

But there are still obstacles in the way before the Land of the Rising Sun
can go fully cyborg: it seems that ageing Japanese citizens remain reluctant
to be converted into eternal machine workers.

Blighty is thought by some to be facing a similar problem, as noted media
robomageddon professor and gladiatordroid expert Noel Sharkey has famously
said <http://www.compeng.ulster.ac.uk/events/ecbs2008/sharkey.php>:

This has become a passion for me. There is a cultural mythology about
robots... there are some real dangers that we may soon have to face. We need
proper informed public debate... we must decide what we want from them
before we dehumanize ourselves
 further.

"People need to have the will," adds Kobayashi.

Read all about it from Reuters
here<http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2008-04-08T110630Z_01_T275062_RTRIDST_0_TECH-JAPAN-ROBOTS-DC.XML&pageNumber=1&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage1>.
(R)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/09/japan_goes_cyberman/
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From scerir at libero.it  Wed Apr 16 20:20:59 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:20:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI]  John A.. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>

John Wheeler, one of the legends of physics, 
died at 96.
http://blogs.physicstoday.org/newspicks/2008/04/john_wheeler_19112008.html 

There are moving posts 
http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/04/13/goodbye/
http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/2008/04/john_wheeler.php

See also this one
http://ashujo.blogspot.com/2008/04/magic-without-magic-john-archibald.html

s.

"All things physical are information - theoretic in origin
and this is a participatory universe...  Observer participancy
gives rise to information; and information gives rise to physics."
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/321/wheeler.pdf
http://forizslaszlo.com/tudomany/wheeler_law_without_law.pdf




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr 16 21:01:59 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:01:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>

At 10:20 PM 4/16/2008 +0200, Serafino wrote:

>John Wheeler, one of the legends of physics,
>died at 96.

I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.

Damien Broderick




From jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov  Wed Apr 16 21:05:50 2008
From: jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jim Stevenson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] plain text was  Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
Message-ID: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>

Hi.

Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
and are using its features.

Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
under which OS, and why?
I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end,
though your mail program may hide them from you.
This is why others may not have pointed out the mime attached html problem.

Your mime attached html post, which I have appended,
is exactly what I received.

Are you using html to display anything other than plain text?
Unless you really are using the html features,
the defaults should be set to both post and answer in plain text,
or uuencode, if plain text is not an option.
your answer mode should also be set to
answer in plain text, or answer in uuencode,
not to answer in kind.

I am most concerned about viruses in unintended attachments.

If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
I have already listened to mine.

I read email with speech,
So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes 
without listening to them again,
and the mime code and html after the header are not speech friendly.
to quickly get to the new information.
The mime attached html is far from speech friendly!

--

Thanks much again as always.


Hi.

I would much appreciate a copy in plain text.

I am having trouble with lynx web access.
If there are too many files or links to post,
a description of what is at that url would help much.


--

Thanks much again as always.
Jim


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Subject: [ExI] Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
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Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcoticsJekyll and super-intelligent
HydeBy Chris
Williams<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/>
$B"*(B
More by this author<http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Chris%20Williams>
Published Thursday 10th April 2008 15:08 GMT
------------------------------
<http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/>

Shocking research by Nature has revealed that many of the world's boffins
are routinely taking psychoactive drugs to boost their brain power.

An "informal survey" by the leading research rag has uncovered an epidemic
of drug use in scientific circles. One in five respondents to the survey
reported they had used cognition-enhancing prescription drugs for
non-medical reasons.

Specifically, ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) drug Ritalin,
sleep medication Provigil, and beta blocking heart drugs are all reportedly
guzzled to improve focus, concentration, and memory. More than one third had
obtained their fix from an internet pharmacy. All but one of the 14 British
scientists who responded ordered online.

The enhanced eggheads reported side effects including sleeplessness,
jitteriness, anxiety, and headaches.

But the poll also revealed that most boffins have no problem with their
competitors obtaining a chemical advantage. Four in five said healthy adults
should be allowed to turbo charge their own brain if they want to.

Boffinry's - and indeed the public's - fancy for personal enhancement is
nothing new, of course.

In 2006, Sir David King, then the UK government's top scientific advisor,
briefed <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/drug_enhancement_briefing/>ministers
at Downing Street on what was dubbed "cosmetic neurology". He
warned that regulators will have to be ready for an explosion in public
interest in the concept over the next 20 years.

In November, the British Medical Association
attempted<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/08/bma_brain_boost_ethics/>to
kickstart debate on the ethics around mental meddling. "It should be
remembered that people are willing to endure major surgery to enhance their
visual appearance, so they may be willing to do so to improve their
cognitive ability as well, if the techniques prove to be effective," the
doctors' group said.

Read Nature's own report on its findings
here<http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080409/full/452674a.html>.
And step away from the coffee machine. (R)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/

BTW, "boffins" seem to mean scientists in British English. :-)

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<h2>Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics</h2><h3 class="Standfirst">Jekyll and super-intelligent Hyde</h3><div class="Byline">By <a href="http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/" title="Send email to the author">Chris Williams</a> <small class="MoreByAuthor">$B"*(B <a href="http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Chris%20Williams" title="More stories from this site by Chris Williams">More by this author</a></small></div>
<div class="Date"><small>Published Thursday 10th April 2008 15:08&nbsp;GMT</small></div><hr id="UnderDate"><div class="TopTextLink">

<a href="http://go.theregister.co.uk/c/td/ttl/http%3A//www.theregister.co.uk/Page/security200803/"></a></div><p>Shocking research by <cite>Nature</cite> has revealed that many of the world&#39;s boffins are routinely taking psychoactive drugs to boost their brain power.</p>


<p>An &quot;informal survey&quot; by the leading research rag has uncovered an
epidemic of drug use in scientific circles. One in five respondents to
the survey reported they had used cognition-enhancing prescription
drugs for non-medical reasons.</p>




<p>Specifically, ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) drug
Ritalin, sleep medication Provigil, and beta blocking heart drugs are
all reportedly guzzled to improve focus, concentration, and memory.
More than one third had obtained their fix from an internet pharmacy.
All but one of the 14 British scientists who responded ordered online.</p>

<p>The enhanced eggheads reported side effects including sleeplessness, jitteriness, anxiety, and headaches.</p>

<p>But the poll also revealed that most boffins have no problem with
their competitors obtaining a chemical advantage. Four in five said
healthy adults should be allowed to turbo charge their own brain if
they want to.</p>

<p>Boffinry&#39;s - and indeed the public&#39;s - fancy for personal enhancement is nothing new, of course.</p>

<p>In 2006, Sir David King, then the UK government&#39;s top scientific advisor, <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/drug_enhancement_briefing/">briefed</a>
ministers at Downing Street on what was dubbed &quot;cosmetic neurology&quot;. He
warned that regulators will have to be ready for an explosion in public
interest in the concept over the next 20 years.</p>

<p>In November, the British Medical Association <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/08/bma_brain_boost_ethics/">attempted</a>
to kickstart debate on the ethics around mental meddling. &quot;It should be
remembered that people are willing to endure major surgery to enhance
their visual appearance, so they may be willing to do so to improve
their cognitive ability as well, if the techniques prove to be
effective,&quot; the doctors&#39; group said.</p>

<p>Read <cite>Nature&#39;s</cite> own report on its findings <a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080409/full/452674a.html" target="_blank">here</a>. And step away from the coffee machine. &reg;</p><a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/10/boffin_drug_epidemic/</a><br>
<br>BTW, &quot;boffins&quot; seem to mean scientists in British English. :-)<br>

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_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 16 22:44:03 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:44:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text
References: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Is Jim talking about the way that (1) sometimes the HTML is not
flagged by my email reader as having an attachment, and (2) sometimes
it is? 

I think he's suggesting that if you *must* use HTML, well, then, okay,
somehow he and the rest of us will live with it.  But does there *also*
have to appear to be an attachment, or in his case, to actually have
an attachment? (It's true that after I open the email, I no longer see
any attachment, just the HTML.)

Lee

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Stevenson" <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text was Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics


> Hi.
> 
> Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
> and are using its features.
> 
> Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
> Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
> If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
> under which OS, and why?
> I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end...



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Wed Apr 16 22:51:15 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:51:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <005201c8a014$648b4ce0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien writes

> At 10:20 PM 4/16/2008 +0200, Serafino wrote:
> 
>>John Wheeler, one of the legends of physics,
>>died at 96.

I knew he was getting up there. Who's next, Martin G.?

> I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.

Maybe by observing the Omega Point, Wheeler will now
be helping to bring it into existence. (He's done quite a 
bit already, to help us towards a future where everyone
can be resurrected.)

Lee

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/universalimmortalism/



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 01:17:37 2008
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:17:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Rafal wrote:
> ### First of all, you find absence of capitalism there. The government
> will do whatever the power-wielders want it to do. If they can benefit
> from slavery, government will support slavery. "The people", or at
>  least some of them, make up the government, so, just as you can't make
> a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you can't wring honest laws out of a
> government supported by nasty people.
> >>>
>
> The fictional nasty people of S.M. Stirling's Draka Empire alternate history
> sf series is an example of this.  The Draka are in some ways the modern
> equivalent of Sparta.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination

### This is a neat sf story.... but if we are talking about realistic
scenarios, I think that nastiness of this kind is strongly self
defeating, at least as long as there are competing political entities.
Keeping a lot of people in wretched servitude by brute force is just
not very productive. The Gulag is an example: millions of people
devoured and nary a thing to show for it. I am reasonably confident
that outright slavery is not a common thing among our highly-developed
galactic neighbors.

On the other hand, other nastiness may be viable: Killing off most
people after a group develops human-equivalent AI. Developing
mind-control techniques to make willing slaves (see Vinge's "A
Deepness in the Sky", an excellent book). The eternal world-spanning
AI-assisted dictatorship.

I am curious where we end up after the singularity.... I really am.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 17 01:24:02 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:24:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> Lee Corbin
> Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text
> 
> Is Jim talking about the way that (1) sometimes the HTML is 
> not flagged by my email reader as having an attachment, and 
> (2) sometimes it is? ... Lee

As moderator, I am not sure how to deal with this question.  Jim is sight
impared and wants to use the ExI chat features by speech synthesis.  I don't
know enough about how that system works to make a useful suggestion, so I am
most open to ideas.

spike







  



From rpwl at lightlink.com  Thu Apr 17 02:15:19 2008
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:15:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] An Open Letter to AGI Investors
In-Reply-To: <006a01c89fcc$35eb3190$d912a8c0@books.local>
References: <284653740804101258i69297e57t6a855af7d42652a2@mail.gmail.com>
	<004001c89cb1$47cf1fc0$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804131312s33fc08aer1d4fc97074ffb204@mail.gmail.com>
	<003d01c89da8$1ed289c0$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804131421u78f2f8f5j38e30fc83739941f@mail.gmail.com>
	<00bc01c89e3e$aa4775b0$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804141317w7324c9e7od1c8726b0209eab0@mail.gmail.com>
	<011701c89f0a$6bdd3e50$d912a8c0@books.local>
	<284653740804151259w71e78c39xd8b7a9c3387da83a@mail.gmail.com>
	<002c01c89f5b$44f757c0$c701a8c0@olympus>
	<284653740804160020v6325bf44v7dfc4b8e81deb883@mail.gmail.com>
	<006a01c89fcc$35eb3190$d912a8c0@books.local>
Message-ID: <4806B2B7.8040207@lightlink.com>


I have stuck my neck out and written an Open Letter to AGI (Artificial 
General Intelligence) Investors on my website at http://susaro.com.

All part of a campaign to get this field jumpstarted.

Next week I am going to put up a road map for my own development project.




Richard Loosemore






From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 03:03:03 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:03:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>

Wow, just .......wow... WTF?!!!!!!!!!!
this is the first time I have watched it, and i'll say again. WTF?
I am astounded that anyone can ramble on for so long and say nothing.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 6:32
Subject: Re: [ExI] $ci again



...
> ...That piece that Tom 
> Cruise recently made about Co$ may become the most parodied 
> video in history...


I don't know which was the critical tipping point for Co$: their prosecution
of Keith on phony charges which really stirred the internet community and
resulted in publicity that cannot even be bought, or the Cruise video which
is so profoundly absurd on so many levels, it is its own parody.

Here it is, in case you missed it the first time around: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

This video causes one to wonder how screwed up can a person be, and still
function at their job?  Perhaps being a Hollyweird actor is a special case,
which actually requires some degree of screwed uptitude.  

On the other hand, perhaps lives were saved by this video.  Imagine driving
in or around Hollyweird, get in a serious accident, wake up surrounded by
paramedics, Porsche pulls up and out jumps an actor, pushing the
professionals aside while insisting he is the only one who can really help.
You beg someone to have mercy just strangle you to hasten the inevitable and
end your misery.  Perhaps proles in southern Taxifornia will drive more
carefully with such a threat on the horizon.

spike




 

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 17 03:54:29 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:54:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <005201c8a014$648b4ce0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


	Subject: Re: [ExI] tiny martians again
	
	
	...I once had a beautiful co-worker from the former East Germany and
she was convinced that dwarfs had smaller brains and were generally the
intellectual inferiors of "full-sized" people...John Grigg



John, I have a biker buddy she should meet.  This very short man is a
mechanical technician who modified a motorcycle to fit his frame.  His trunk
is not so different from an ordinary person, but he has extremely short arms
and legs.  He fitted a smaller rear wheel, installed low profile tires,
modifed the suspension fore and aft using shortened springs and compensated
by using higher damping and higher spring rates, cut away part of the rear
fender to allow it to come down closer to the rear tire, removed nearly all
of the padding from the front of the seat so that when at a stoplight, he
moves forward, straddling the frame.  The frame is two parallel bars
foreward of the seat and aft of the tank, so he can straddle the bars
without damage to his manliness.  With all those individual solutions, the
front of the seat is only 26 inches from the pavement.  He built up this
bike mostly by himself, using mostly his own ideas.  But he still needed
about two inches to touch down.  I might have come up with all these ideas,
but he had one more idea I would never have thought of: he modified his
riding boots with extensions.

On a group ride he was wearing them, so I had to ask: Guy, how do you walk
in those things?  He said: Well... these boots ain't made for walking.  You
know what I had to say: ...and that's just what they won't do...  

You need to be nearly fifty to get that joke.

Regarding little people with smaller brains, I would argue thus: small
people evidently have sufficient brain matter up front to do what large
people do.  

At the start of WW2 (no I wasn't there dammit) the men went off in large
numbers to fight the war, so people (mostly women) poured into the aircraft
factories as replacements.  A group of little people who couldn't be
soldiers went into the factories, where they found a perfect job: they were
small enough to climb into the tail sections and other tiny spaces to
install and inspect control cables.  

Ordinarily workers came into the factories in the early war years with no
experience of any kind, so they were taught a skill: riveting, welding or
soldering for instance.  After they mastered a skill, they were given a
raise to the second tier.  A few of the workers already had a specific skill
when they started, so they started at a higher pay.  The midgets already had
a specific skill: climbing into tight spaces.  So Lockheeed, Doouglas and
Booeing did the logical thing: started them at the second tier.  I can
imagine that did wonders for their self esteem, especially considering that
ordinary sized people could never be trained into those positions: they were
too big.

A PBS special had an interview in which the little people commented that
these were some of the happiest years of their lives: they had been
chronically underemployed, some finding work with the circus, in the movies,
or in travelling comedy shows etc.  But when the war started, they were a
valuable asset for the war effort.  

When we do the numbers and realize how much more mission we can do with how
much less rocket, it looks to me all of the Mars missions should be
undertaken by these valuable specially-abled little persons.

spike




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 17 06:02:54 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:02:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system,  again)
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com>
	<07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1208412281_629@s5.cableone.net>

At 06:17 PM 4/16/2008, Rafal wrote:

>On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, John Grigg 
><possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Rafal wrote:

snip

> > The fictional nasty people of S.M. Stirling's Draka Empire 
> alternate history
> > sf series is an example of this.  The Draka are in some ways the modern
> > equivalent of Sparta.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination
>
>### This is a neat sf story....

Silly actually.  It doesn't work well with EP.

>but if we are talking about realistic
>scenarios, I think that nastiness of this kind is strongly self
>defeating, at least as long as there are competing political entities.
>Keeping a lot of people in wretched servitude by brute force is just
>not very productive. The Gulag is an example: millions of people
>devoured and nary a thing to show for it. I am reasonably confident
>that outright slavery is not a common thing among our highly-developed
>galactic neighbors.
>
>On the other hand, other nastiness may be viable: Killing off most
>people after a group develops human-equivalent AI. Developing
>mind-control techniques to make willing slaves (see Vinge's "A
>Deepness in the Sky", an excellent book). The eternal world-spanning
>AI-assisted dictatorship.
>
>I am curious where we end up after the singularity.... I really am.

http://www.terasemjournals.org/GN0202/henson.html

An alternate view where the libertarian survivors of bio warfare 
seduce the population of the world out of physical existence.

Keith 



From scerir at libero.it  Thu Apr 17 06:44:21 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:44:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>

Damien:
> I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.

That might have a deep meaning. Since Wheeler started
the thread 'Goedel vs. Quantum', and many think it is possible
that, from 'inside', we cannot understand how the quantum
machinery (measurement, nonseparability, ecc.) really works.
Because the observer is an 'insider'.

-Arthur Komar, "Undecidability of Macroscopically Distinguishable
States in Quantum Field Theory", Physical Review, 133, (1964), p. B542
-Asher Peres, "Measurement of Time by Quantum Clocks", American Journal
of Physics, 48, (1980), p. 552
- Asher Peres, W.H. Zurek, "Is Quantum Theory Universally Valid?",
American Journal of Physics, 50, (1982), p. 807
- David. Z. Albert, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
98.A, (1983), p, 249
- Asher Peres, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
101.A, (1984), p. 249
- Asher Peres, "Einstein, Godel, Bohr", Foundations of Physics,
15, (1985), p. 201
- Peter Mittelstaedt, "The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and
the Measurement Process", CAmbridge U.P., 1998.
- Thomas Breuer, Quantenmechanick - Ein Fall fuer Goedel?, Spectrum,
Heidelberg, 1996
- Thomas Breuer, Classical Observables, Measurement and Quantum Mechanics,
Ph.D. Thesis, Un. of Cambridge, 1994
- Thomas Breuer, many papers at
http://www2.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/~tb/cms/
- Karl Svozil, "Randomness and Undecidability in Physics",
Singapore, World Scientific, 1993

"There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon
of quantum measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It
concerns *introspective* systems, where subject = object so
that the basic conception of a single subject observing an
ensemble of objects must be modified."
- David Finkelstein
in "The Physics of Logic" (in "Paradigms and Paradoxes",
ed. R. G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60)

"The assertion that 'we cannot signal faster than light'
immediately provokes the question: Who do we think *we* are?
*We* who can make 'measurements', *we* who can manipulate
'external fields', *we* who can 'signal' at all, even if not
faster than light? Do *we* include chemists, or only physicists,
plants, or only animals, pocket calculators, or only mainframe
computers?"
- John Bell

"In summary, let me tell a story from ten years ago, from 1979,
which was the centenary of Einstein's birth. There were many
meetings around the world celebrating this occasion. And at one
of them in New York I met a well-known physicist, John Wheeler.
I went up to Wheeler and I asked him, 'Prof. Wheeler, do you think
there's a connection between G?del's incompleteness theorem
and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?' Actually,
I'd heard that he did, so I asked him, 'What connection do you
think there is between G?del's incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle?'
This is what Wheeler answered. He said, 'Well, one day I was at the
Institute for Advanced Study, and I went to G?del's office, and there
was G?del...' I think Wheeler said that it was winter and G?del
had an electric heater and had his legs wrapped in a blanket.
Wheeler said, 'I went to G?del, and I asked him, `Prof. G?del, what
connection do you see between your incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle?'. I believe that Wheeler exaggerated a little bit
now. He said, 'And G?del got angry and threw me out of his office!'.
Wheeler blamed Einstein for this. He said that Einstein had brain-washed
G?del against quantum mechanics and against Heisenberg's uncertainty
principle!
In print I recently saw a for-the-record version of this anecdote
(Jeremy Bernstein, Quantum Profiles, Princeton University Press, 1991,
pp. 140-141), which probably is closer to the truth but is less dramatic.
It said, not that Wheeler was thrown out of G?del's office, but that G?del
simply did not want to talk about it since he shared Einstein's disapproval
of quantum mechanics and uncertainty in physics. Wheeler and G?del then
talked about other topics in the philosophy of physics, and about
cosmology."
- G. Chaitin










From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 07:08:53 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:38:53 +0930
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804170008w380f4d96h42b9eb5399e2e774@mail.gmail.com>

He could be a senator.

On 17/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:
> Wow, just .......wow... WTF?!!!!!!!!!!
> this is the first time I have watched it, and i'll say again. WTF?
> I am astounded that anyone can ramble on for so long and say nothing.
>
> Alex
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 6:32
> Subject: Re: [ExI] $ci again
>
> ...
> ...That piece that Tom
> Cruise recently made about Co$ may become
> the most parodied
> video in history...


I don't know which was the
> critical tipping point for Co$: their prosecution
of Keith on phony charges
> which really stirred the internet community and
resulted in publicity that
> cannot even be bought, or the Cruise video which
is so profoundly absurd on
> so many levels, it is its own parody.

Here it is, in case you missed it the
> first time around:
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

This video
> causes one to wonder how screwed up can a person be, and still
function at
> their job? Perhaps being a Hollyweird actor is a special case,
which
> actually requires some degree of screwed uptitude.

On the other hand,
> perhaps lives were saved by this video. Imagine driving
in or around
> Hollyweird, get in a serious accident, wake up surrounded by
paramedics,
> Porsche pulls up and out jumps an actor, pushing the
professionals aside
> while insisting he is the only one who can really help.
You beg someone to
> have mercy just strangle you to hasten the inevitable and
end your misery.
> Perhaps proles in southern Taxifornia will drive more
carefully with such a
> threat on the horizon.

spike




>

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat
> mailing
> list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> ________________________________
> AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour now.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 07:27:13 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:27:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6E7397089E55-163C-4BE@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>


I fully agree. The problems and hardships that 'small people' encounter in their daily lives are all related to the world being designed for us lofty people. In a Mars mission environment, or any other specific extra planetary mission. These problems would be non existent if the mission were designed for small people from the outset. Mind, you in space it doesn't really matter what level the light switch is at, when everyone is floating around!
I do have a couple of concerns about?a short people only mission. Can we find enough of them willing to take the risk? I am fairly sure that life has made them pretty hardy and up for just about any challenge, but it may smack of 'Hey short stuff, we want to blast you into space on a potentially life threatening mission rather than one of the good ole boys, Mainly cos you're cheap!. Wadda ya say?"

Secondly, if the mission were to be a long term or permanent affair with mixed sexes, then what happens when the first human martian (Marman? Hutian?) offspring turn out to be full sized? which is perfectly?possible. Granted, that is a problem that may present itself way down the line, and will most likely score very low on the problems list.

As a side note, I have noticed that in many alien abduction accounts, The abductee's speak about the stereotypical greys and also very short stature helpers. Perhaps?the greys thought about the an equivalent small people solution a few millennia before us? Perhaps a thoughtful abductee could bare this in mind next time they get whisked away to beta reticuli and ask if the greys?if the small ones are a result of?a cost cutting exercise? LOL

Alex
?

-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 4:54
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again

?



    Subject: Re: [ExI] tiny martians again
    
    
    ...I once had a beautiful co-worker from the former East Germany and
she was convinced that dwarfs had smaller brains and were generally the
intellectual inferiors of "full-sized" people...John Grigg



John, I have a biker buddy she should meet.  This very short man is a
mechanical technician who modified a motorcycle to fit his frame.  His trunk
is not so different from an ordinary person, but he has extremely short arms
and legs.  He fitted a smaller rear wheel, installed low profile tires,
modifed the suspension fore and aft using shortened springs and compensated
by using higher damping and higher spring rates, cut away part of the rear
fender to allow it to come down closer to the rear tire, removed nearly all
of the padding from the front of the seat so that when at a stoplight, he
moves forward, straddling the frame.  The frame is two parallel bars
foreward of the seat and aft of the tank, so he can straddle the bars
without damage to his manliness.  With all those individual solutions, the
front of the seat is only 26 inches from the pavement.  He built up this
bike mostly by himself, using mostly his own ideas.  But he still needed
about two inches to touch down.  I might have come up with all these ideas,
but he had one more idea I would never have thought of: he modified his
riding boots with extensions.

On a group ride he was wearing them, so I had to ask: Guy, how do you walk
in those things?  He said: Well... these boots ain't made for walking.  You
know what I had to say: ...and that's just what they won't do...  

You need to be nearly fifty to get that joke.

Regarding little people with smaller brains, I would argue thus: small
people evidently have sufficient brain matter up front to do what large
people do.  

At the start of WW2 (no I wasn't there dammit) the men went off in large
numbers to fight the war, so people (mostly women) poured into the aircraft
factories as replacements.  A group of little people who couldn't be
soldiers went into the factories, where they found a perfect job: they were
small enough to climb into the tail sections and other tiny spaces to
install and inspect control cables.  

Ordinarily workers came into the factories in the early war years with no
experience of any kind, so they were taught a skill: riveting, welding or
soldering for instance.  After they mastered a skill, they were given a
raise to the second tier.  A few of the workers already had a specific skill
when they started, so they started at a higher pay.  The midgets already had
a specific skill: climbing into tight spaces.  So Lockheeed, Doouglas and
Booeing did the logical thing: started them at the second tier.  I can
imagine that did wonders for their self esteem, especially considering that
ordinary sized people could never be trained into those positions: they were
too big.

A PBS special had an interview in which the little people commented that
these were some of the happiest years of their lives: they had been
chronically underemployed, some finding work with the circus, in the movies,
or in travelling comedy shows etc.  But when the war started, they were a
valuable asset for the war effort.  

When we do the numbers and realize how much more mission we can do with how
much less rocket, it looks to me all of the Mars missions should be
undertaken by these valuable specially-abled little persons.

spike


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 07:27:28 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:57:28 +0930
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0804170027k1c7d842g41a872c0c4cf66ad@mail.gmail.com>

It sounds like the mail reader Jim's using is a bit lame, but I don't
know what the alternatives are.

Maybe you could clean out the html somehow? eg: if you make a yahoo
group or equivalent, subscribe to it, subscribe it to the exi list,
and get it to only send plain text messages, maybe that would clean
them up a bit for you, remove any html crap?

Something along those lines might make an interesting weekend project,
actually; take an email feed, clean it up as ideally as possible for
those using text-to-speech, then ship it out again. Might be a nice
feature for the exi list. I'd be willing to look at that, if someone
wants to host it, and if no one can come up with a better off the
shelf solution.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com

On 17/04/2008, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> > Lee Corbin
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] plain text
> >
> > Is Jim talking about the way that (1) sometimes the HTML is
> > not flagged by my email reader as having an attachment, and
> > (2) sometimes it is? ... Lee
>
> As moderator, I am not sure how to deal with this question.  Jim is sight
> impared and wants to use the ExI chat features by speech synthesis.  I don't
> know enough about how that system works to make a useful suggestion, so I am
> most open to ideas.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From aleksei at iki.fi  Thu Apr 17 07:36:18 2008
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:36:18 +0300
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <005201c8a014$648b4ce0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170421.m3H4LBjL009558@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <1db0b2da0804170036n56b97537y63342bd89277adba@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 6:54 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>  When we do the numbers and realize how much more mission we can do with how
>  much less rocket, it looks to me all of the Mars missions should be
>  undertaken by these valuable specially-abled little persons.

Good point, something I hadn't realized before.

Unfortunately the space programs that are just PR programs in
superpower politics would never want to give the impression of their
nation being a nation of midgets.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 07:47:32 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:47:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 2:24 AM, spike wrote:
>  As moderator, I am not sure how to deal with this question.  Jim is sight
>  impared and wants to use the ExI chat features by speech synthesis.  I don't
>  know enough about how that system works to make a useful suggestion, so I am
>  most open to ideas.
>


Spike and Lee's messages above, in this thread, are fine examples of
the type of plain text messages that Jim prefers.
Security paranoid people (like me) also prefer to avoid HTML and attachments.

The 'Boffins' message from Stefano is an example of the HTML formatted
messages that add lots of duplicated stuff and coding.

If you are using Gmail to compose a message, this is avoided by *not*
clicking on the 'Rich Formatting' option.
'Rich Formatting' is gmail's way of saying 'HTML formatting'.

BillK


From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 07:52:54 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:52:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com>
	<000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>

I have always thought that a large problem in quantum measurement is the 'shutter speed'. How can we measure the position of something so quick when the measurement takes so long. For example we say that an electron occupies all positions around the nucleus at any given time. To me this is like saying, We took a photograph of the 400 metre race and from the measurement we can clearly state that all the runners occupied every position around the track in each of their lanes. So we have concluded that somehow the runners must be operating at a level of physics which defies our current understanding.
The real problem only becomes apparent when?someone realises the shutter speed of the camera is set to an exposure of 1 minute. In the same way, we are trying to measure the position of an electron which travels at C, when?our apparatus could?never hope to make a measurement quickly enough.

Just my 2 cents before I turn in for the night. Oops, it's day time again already. 24 is not enough hours! and this sleep thing just wastes my time.
Alex

? 
-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 7:44
Subject: Re: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler



Damien:
 I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.
That might have a deep meaning. Since Wheeler started
he thread 'Goedel vs. Quantum', and many think it is possible
hat, from 'inside', we cannot understand how the quantum
achinery (measurement, nonseparability, ecc.) really works.
ecause the observer is an 'insider'.
-Arthur Komar, "Undecidability of Macroscopically Distinguishable
tates in Quantum Field Theory", Physical Review, 133, (1964), p. B542
Asher Peres, "Measurement of Time by Quantum Clocks", American Journal
f Physics, 48, (1980), p. 552
 Asher Peres, W.H. Zurek, "Is Quantum Theory Universally Valid?",
merican Journal of Physics, 50, (1982), p. 807
 David. Z. Albert, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
8.A, (1983), p, 249
 Asher Peres, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
01.A, (1984), p. 249
 Asher Peres, "Einstein, Godel, Bohr", Foundations of Physics,
5, (1985), p. 201
 Peter Mittelstaedt, "The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and
he Measurement Process", CAmbridge U.P., 1998.
 Thomas Breuer, Quantenmechanick - Ein Fall fuer Goedel?, Spectrum,
eidelberg, 1996
 Thomas Breuer, Classical Observables, Measurement and Quantum Mechanics,
h.D. Thesis, Un. of Cambridge, 1994
 Thomas Breuer, many papers at
ttp://www2.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/~tb/cms/
 Karl Svozil, "Randomness and Undecidability in Physics",
ingapore, World Scientific, 1993
"There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon
f quantum measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It
oncerns *introspective* systems, where subject = object so
hat the basic conception of a single subject observing an
nsemble of objects must be modified."
 David Finkelstein
n "The Physics of Logic" (in "Paradigms and Paradoxes",
d. R. G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60)
"The assertion that 'we cannot signal faster than light'
mmediately provokes the question: Who do we think *we* are?
We* who can make 'measurements', *we* who can manipulate
external fields', *we* who can 'signal' at all, even if not
aster than light? Do *we* include chemists, or only physicists,
lants, or only animals, pocket calculators, or only mainframe
omputers?"
 John Bell
"In summary, let me tell a story from ten years ago, from 1979,
hich was the centenary of Einstein's birth. There were many
eetings around the world celebrating this occasion. And at one
f them in New York I met a well-known physicist, John Wheeler.
 went up to Wheeler and I asked him, 'Prof. Wheeler, do you think
here's a connection between G?del's incompleteness theorem
nd the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?' Actually,
'd heard that he did, so I asked him, 'What connection do you
hink there is between G?del's incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
ncertainty principle?'
his is what Wheeler answered. He said, 'Well, one day I was at the
nstitute for Advanced Study, and I went to G?del's office, and there
as G?del...' I think Wheeler said that it was winter and G?del
ad an electric heater and had his legs wrapped in a blanket.
heeler said, 'I went to G?del, and I asked him, `Prof. G?del, what
onnection do you see between your incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
ncertainty principle?'. I believe that Wheeler exaggerated a little bit
ow. He said, 'And G?del got angry and threw me out of his office!'.
heeler blamed Einstein for this. He said that Einstein had brain-washed
?del against quantum mechanics and against Heisenberg's uncertainty
rinciple!
n print I recently saw a for-the-record version of this anecdote
Jeremy Bernstein, Quantum Profiles, Princeton University Press, 1991,
p. 140-141), which probably is closer to the truth but is less dramatic.
t said, not that Wheeler was thrown out of G?del's office, but that G?del
imply did not want to talk about it since he shared Einstein's disapproval
f quantum mechanics and uncertainty in physics. Wheeler and G?del then
alked about other topics in the philosophy of physics, and about
osmology."
 G. Chaitin




______________________________________________
xtropy-chat mailing list
xtropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
ttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Apr 17 07:57:06 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:57:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] $ci again
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0804170008w380f4d96h42b9eb5399e2e774@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200804160533.m3G5X2Bk011717@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<8CA6E4EAF95F743-CC4-27EB@FWM-D19.sysops.aol.com>
	<710b78fc0804170008w380f4d96h42b9eb5399e2e774@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6E77C3C6FA0D-163C-500@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! don't give them idea's !? I'm sure that plan is already in motion.

Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 8:08
Subject: Re: [ExI] $ci again



He could be a senator.

On 17/04/2008, ablainey at aol.com <ablainey at aol.com> wrote:
> Wow, just .......wow... WTF?!!!!!!!!!!
> this is the first time I have watched it, and i'll say again. WTF?
> I am astounded that anyone can ramble on for so long and say nothing.
>
> Alex
>


________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 09:55:01 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:55:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] plain text was Boffins chomp noggin-nobbling narcotics
In-Reply-To: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
References: <200804162105.m3GL5oDG005158@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <580930c20804170255m690f25fer190eb63c9c9b6282@mail.gmail.com>

2008/4/16 Jim Stevenson <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov>:
>  Please forgive if you really want to attach html
>  and are using its features.

I use Gmail in Firefox under Linux. Usually, my posts are plain text.
However, when I am pasting in my message a text with graphics and
hyperlinks and different fonts, I have to resort to HTML not to lose
all of that on the way.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 10:01:35 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:01:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:47 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>  If you are using Gmail to compose a message, this is avoided by *not*
>  clicking on the 'Rich Formatting' option.
>  'Rich Formatting' is gmail's way of saying 'HTML formatting'.

Yes, this is clear. However, if you want to profit from HTML features,
there is no alternative. And yes, in many cases this is unnecessary
and equivalents can be found (e.g. *bold*, /italic/, etc.). On the
other hand, losing hyperlinks is sometimes a pity.

Stefano Vaj


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 17 14:22:36 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:22:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <1db0b2da0804170036n56b97537y63342bd89277adba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804171449.m3HEnIIO015091@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 6:54 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >  ...all of the Mars missions 
> > should be  undertaken by these valuable specially-abled 
> > little persons.
> 
> Good point, something I hadn't realized before.
> 
> Unfortunately the space programs that are just PR programs in 
> superpower politics would never want to give the impression 
> of their nation being a nation of midgets... Aleksei Riikonen 

Ask not what space programs are, but rather what they will be: governments
out, private funding in.  If done with private funding, using a tiny
astronaut is an option that suddenly becomes far more attractive, or even
completely necessary.


> ...Can we find enough of them willing to take the risk? ... Ablainey

Ja, for I propose taking only one.

>...what happens when the first human martian (Marman? Hutian?) offspring
turn out to be full sized?  ...Ablainey

We verify the astronaut is not pregnant when she leaves.  The mission is for
three years, no landing involved.  She gets out of a problem larger
astronauts would have: the body dumps calcium upon entering weightlessness,
much of that from the femurs.  A fifteen pound person would be effected much
less by the change.

She would operate partially autonomous remotely controlled construction
equipment from Mars synchronous orbit.  The stuff she would build from orbit
would be usable by ordinary sized people, who would come later. 

spike  



From scerir at libero.it  Thu Apr 17 14:31:07 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:31:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>
	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>

Alex:
I have always thought that a large problem 
in quantum measurement is the 'shutter speed'. [etc.]

# While position measurements are not performed
using cameras and shutters [1], it is true there is an 
impossibility of any sharp distinction between the
behaviour of atomic objects and the interaction
with the measuring instruments which serve to define
the conditions under which the phenomena appear.
This conspiracy has different names and faces, like
Bohr's complementarity [2], WAY theorem, KS contextuality.

[1]  The theoretical treatment of a very fast shutter requires (imo)
a time-dependent Schroedinger equation, and it is (imo) a difficult
subject. See,ie, Marcos Moshinshy 'Diffraction in Time', Physical Review, 
vol. 88, n. 3, (1952), pages 625-631.

[2] 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action, 
we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained 
in the description of atomic phenomena. In particular, 
any attempt at an ordering in space-time leads to 
a break in the causal chain, since such an attempt
is bound up with an essential exchange of momentum 
and energy between the individuals and the measuring
rods and clocks used for observation; and just this 
exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring 
instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, 
any conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the
strict conservation of energy and momentum, with
regard to the dynamical behaviour of the individual 
units obviously necessitates a complete renunciation 
of following their course in space and time'.
-N.Bohr, 'Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature', 
pp. 97-8, Cambridge University Press, 1934





From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 17 15:33:42 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:33:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><f21c22e30804090448h8699ac4xf0785e3a5a0c6191@mail.gmail.com><07d901c89c9e$29560c10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com><038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z><7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com><2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Rafal wrote in "Subject: Re: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)"


> ### Keeping a lot of people in wretched servitude by
> brute force is just not very productive.

I totally agree:  suppose you were a vastly superior AI
that had control of some limited amount of resources
(matter and energy), and suppose that you used sub-modules
and sub-programs for various things.  Why also include
circuits that caused your sub-programs to regret their
status?

The only important differences between my car and a
slave is (a) the slave regrets its situation (b) the slave
is conscious. If I create sub-programs that don't 
regret my control and who are conscious, then they're
more like employees or collaborators. I will not call
that slavery, unless you can persuade me that my car
is properly speaking a slave.

> I am reasonably confident that outright slavery is not
> a common thing among our highly-developed
> galactic neighbors.

Yes!  For the simple reason that generating the regret
and pining-away typical of slaves is not efficient.

> On the other hand, other nastiness may be viable: Killing off most
> people after a group develops human-equivalent AI. Developing
> mind-control techniques to make willing slaves (see Vinge's "A
> Deepness in the Sky", an excellent book). The eternal world-spanning
> AI-assisted dictatorship.

I agree, just that the "Focused" in VV's Deepness were an advance,
but obviously hardly the pinnacle of advanced surveillance techniques
or advanced AI.

There is utterly no reason to worry about slavery in a high-tech future.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 17 15:39:03 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:39:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com><ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stefano wrote


> However, if you want to profit from HTML features,
> there is no alternative. And yes, in many cases this
> is unnecessary and equivalents can be found (e.g.
> *bold*, /italic/, etc.). On the other hand, losing
> hyperlinks is sometimes a pity.

Why can't the hyperlink be converted to plain text?
I myself often copy things into a plain-text editor
to get rid of html before posting, and I've never had
any problem with links failing to show up.

Lee



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 17 15:28:29 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:28:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: KurzweilAI.net Daily Newsletter
Message-ID: <1208446217_2203@s8.cableone.net>


>The $100 Genome
>Technology Review April 17, 2008
>*************************
>Complete Genomics and
>BioNanomatrix, are collaborating to
>create a novel approach that would
>sequence your genome for $100 in a
>single day. The most recent figures
>for sequencing a human genome are
>$60,000 in about six weeks. Each DNA
>molecule will be threaded into a
>nanofluidics device, made
>BioNanomatrix, lined with rows of
>tiny...
>http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=8452&m=21115



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Apr 17 15:56:26 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:56:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
Message-ID: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm

(See entire text below.) Since you'll see 50 stories a week
about "the increase", here are a few facts from the nature
article:

Summary:

* Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year.
* Since the beginning of the 20th Century, the global average
   surface temperature has risen by 0.74C.
* This would mean that temperatures have not risen globally
   since 1998 when El Nino warmed the world.

Putting those three facts together paints a different picture
from what we usually hear, doesn't it?

Lee

Entire text:
__________________________________________
Global temperatures 'to decrease'

By Roger Harrabin BBC News environment analyst

Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year as a result of the cold La Nina current in the Pacific, UN 
meteorologists have said.

The World Meteorological Organization's secretary-general, Michel Jarraud, told the BBC it was likely that La Nina would continue 
into the summer.

But this year's temperatures would still be way above the average - and we would soon exceed the record year of 1998 because of 
global warming induced by greenhouse gases.

The WMO points out that the decade from 1998 to 2007 was the warmest on record. Since the beginning of the 20th Century, the global 
average surface temperature has risen by 0.74C.

While Nasa, the US space agency, cites 2005 as the warmest year, the UK's Hadley Centre lists it as second to 1998.

Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any particular year is larger than these small temperature differences. 
What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Rises 'stalled'

LA NINA KEY FACTS La Nina 2008 Forecast (Source: UK Met Office Hadley Centre) La Nina translates from the Spanish as "The Child 
Girl" Refers to the extensive cooling of the central and eastern Pacific Increased sea temperatures on the western side of the 
Pacific mean the atmosphere has more energy and frequency of heavy rain and thunderstorms is increased Typically lasts for up to 12 
months and generally less damaging event than the stronger El Nino

La Nina and El Nino are two great natural Pacific currents whose effects are so huge they resonate round the world.

El Nino warms the planet when it happens; La Nina cools it. This year, the Pacific is in the grip of a powerful La Nina.

It has contributed to torrential rains in Australia and to some of the coldest temperatures in memory in snow-bound parts of China.

Mr Jarraud told the BBC that the effect was likely to continue into the summer, depressing temperatures globally by a fraction of a 
degree.

This would mean that temperatures have not risen globally since 1998 when El Nino warmed the world.
A minority of scientists question whether this means global warming has peaked and argue the Earth has proved more resilient to 
greenhouse gases than predicted.



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:04:29 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:04:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
>>There is utterly no reason to worry about slavery in a high-tech future.
I am not so sure.  I could see a powerful individual/government employing
slavery not out of a desire for economic profit but simply to "enjoy"
degrading former enemies and to eliminate the need to trust others (humans
have trouble with this!).  I also envision the slavery of genetically
engineered biological sentients who are created for such tasks as warfare or
sex work.  Never having known freedom, they may not even fully realize what
they are missing as they carry out their appointed roles in their society.
And they may be neurologically modified so that they will not be prone
toward the desire to rebel and be free.

You may say that soldiers or sex workers, etc., could simply be
human-like hardware bots instead of wetware biologicals.  But I bet some
future societies will want to augment their "hardware bot resources" with
sentient biologicals (both out of sentimentality and perhaps practicality,
machines may not be able to do everything better).

And then there is the subject of artificial intelligence slavery/AI civil
rights...

John Grigg
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From godsdice at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:10:46 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:10:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Me, my electromagnetic field and I - Don't Tase me Bro!
Message-ID: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>

I understand that each of us has a distinct electromagnetic field.  If this
is correct, what does that field do?  How might it be effected by an MRI?
How might it be effected by a taser?
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From godsdice at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 16:14:15 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:14:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
Message-ID: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>

It's said that yesterday's mashed potatoes become today's grey matter.  What
is the term for the process whereby the molecules of which we are comprised
are replaced over time?
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Apr 17 17:21:22 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:21:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>

At 09:14 AM 4/17/2008, you wrote:
>It's said that yesterday's mashed potatoes become today's grey 
>matter.  What is the term for the process whereby the molecules of 
>which we are comprised are replaced over time?

If you need to ask such a question, you should not be on this list.

Sorry,

Keith Henson 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 17 19:48:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:48:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>

At 08:56 AM 4/17/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm
>
>Summary:
>
>* Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year.

Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over! Oh, wait, it goes on:

>But this year's temperatures would still be way above the average - 
>and we would soon exceed the record year of 1998 because of global 
>warming induced by greenhouse gases....
>Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any 
>particular year is larger than these small temperature differences.
>What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Damien Broderick
[There we were this morning, tearing along the freeway at 80, then we 
went on a feeder and slowed for a red light. For the last 20 seconds, 
our speed dropped well below 80. In fact, it went to zero! A new 
trend! No-ideological-bullshit-conclusion: traveling from now on will 
be really, really slow]





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 17 20:23:37 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:23:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>

This is hardly news, but it's not a bad pop summary of in-built 
cognitive limitations:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?th&emc=th>

<We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices. One study 
presented listeners with static-filled recordings of speeches that 
they believed they were judging on persuasive power. Listeners could 
push a button to tweak the signal, reducing the static to make it 
easier to understand. When smokers heard a speech connecting tobacco 
with cancer, they didn't try to improve the clarity to hear it more 
easily. But they pushed the button to get a clearer version of a 
speech saying that there was no link between smoking and cancer. 
Nonsmokers were the exact opposite.

This resistance to information that doesn't mesh with our 
preconceived beliefs afflicts both liberals and conservatives, but a 
raft of studies shows that it is a particular problem with 
conservatives. For example, when voters receive mailings offering 
them free pamphlets on various political topics, liberals show some 
interest in getting conservative views. In contrast, conservatives 
seek only those pamphlets that echo their own views.

Likewise, liberal blogs overwhelmingly link to other liberal blogs or 
news sources. But with conservative blogs, the tendency is much more 
pronounced; it is almost a sealed universe.>

Damien Broderick



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 21:00:01 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:00:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "The 11th Hour" documentary
Message-ID: <2d6187670804171400g4486b501p9ad0cd2f6f0ab88d@mail.gmail.com>

Last night I viewed "The 11th Hour" with a local campus "save the planet
before it's too late" club.  I had read a bad review of the documentary in a
local paper, but upon actually watching it myself I have to admit to being
rather impressed.  Yes, Leonardo DiCaprio did *partially* narrate it, and
yet this was hardly "the end of the world." lol  The documentary went well
beyond the subject of global warming and focused much more on the matter of
our current civilization developing a *sustainable* system of
global economic development.  The "consumer/industrial use it/toss it/don't
bother recycling it/wreck the planet" culture we have now was strongly taken
to task for the way we are presently heading off a cliff.  But as smart and
reasonable alternatives were shown to the current state of things, I began
to think to myself as they rolled them out, "hey, this smacks of enlightened
Transhumanism."  : )

The official documentary website:

http://wip.warnerbros.com/11thhour/mainsite/site.html

A volunteer/action website connected to the documentary:

http://11thhouraction.com/

On Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/11th-Hour-Leonardo-DiCaprio/dp/B00005JPXA


John Grigg
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 17 20:35:19 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:35:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Slavery Now and in the Past (was: Health system, again)
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <688765.41261.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination
> 
> ### This is a neat sf story.... but if we are talking about realistic
> scenarios, I think that nastiness of this kind is strongly self
> defeating, at least as long as there are competing political
> entities.

While the nastiness of slavery could certainly be self-defeating
politically and morally, the real reason something like the Domination
of the Draka is doomed to failure is because of economics. A system
where a significant portion of ones wealth is invested in slaves is one
where one must feed, clothe, shelter, and keep in working condition a
bunch of people or lose ones investment. This is in addition to all the
expenses of keeping them subdued in the first place including the
occasional "example" that must be made from time to time.

It is far more efficient and cost effective to simply pay them a
nominal wage and let them worry about being able to afford food,
shelter, medicine, etc. Capitalism is superior to slavery because in
some respects, it is even more ruthless.  

> I am curious where we end up after the singularity.... I really am.

I have been working on this question lately. I have determined that
only nine generalized outcomes are possible. Albeit there can be subtle
variations of each potential outcome. I will elaborate with an essay
about this when I have time.




Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From godsdice at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 21:52:12 2008
From: godsdice at gmail.com (Rick Strongitharm)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:52:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>

Henson helpfully huffs:


> If you need to ask such a question, you should not be on this list.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Keith Henson


 Uh...Ooo-kay.  And some wonder why non-scientists ignore the singularly
important topics that are discussed on this list.

Like many on this list, I am here to learn.  My 12 years of post-secondary
education were unfortunately wasted in linguistics, law and, most
unfortunately, religion.  I regret not taking sciences.  I am doing what I
can as a lay person to learn.

I would hope that the good folks on this list would be happy to help those
of us who may be able to spread the gospel of extropy to the masses.

Oh, yeah, and I do accept your apology.

My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
that happens to us physically?

Respectfully,

Rick Strongitharm
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 17 22:10:24 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:10:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <301199.22055.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


--- Rick Strongitharm <godsdice at gmail.com> wrote:

> My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the
> regeneration
> that happens to us physically?

Homeostatic maintenance is the general term for the ongoing process of
renewal in living things.



Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"Life is the sum of all your choices."  
Albert Camus


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:13:06 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:13:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804171513p349b2747va551e480b6df43d7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
>  My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
> that happens to us physically?
>

Try Google or Wikipedia.

Search terms like 'body cell replacement' or similar might produce
interesting reading.

BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:52:10 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:52:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tiny martians again
In-Reply-To: <200804171449.m3HEnIIO015091@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200804171449.m3HEnIIO015091@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200804171752.10465.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, spike wrote:
> > Unfortunately the space programs that are just PR programs in
> > superpower politics would never want to give the impression
> > of their nation being a nation of midgets... Aleksei Riikonen
>
> Ask not what space programs are, but rather what they will be:
> governments out, private funding in. ?If done with private funding,
> using a tiny astronaut is an option that suddenly becomes far more
> attractive, or even completely necessary.

How about no funding? The open source model is proving effective. 
Technological manufacturing for open source groups is being solved at 
the moment (by *me* and others alike); we will win. Nobody will need 
funding: just access to raw materials. The internet provides the 
knowhow and programming to make it happen.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:54:42 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:54:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: KurzweilAI.net Daily Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <1208446217_2203@s8.cableone.net>
References: <1208446217_2203@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200804171754.42679.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, hkhenson wrote:
> >The $100 Genome
> >Technology Review April 17, 2008
> >*************************
> >Complete Genomics and
> >BioNanomatrix, are collaborating to
> >create a novel approach that would
> >sequence your genome for $100 in a
> >single day. The most recent figures
> >for sequencing a human genome are
> >$60,000 in about six weeks. Each DNA
> >molecule will be threaded into a
> >nanofluidics device, made
> >BioNanomatrix, lined with rows of
> >tiny...
> >http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=8452&m=2111
> >5

Yawn. Open source is the way of the future instead.

http://polonator.org/ - do it yourself pyrosequencing
http://biohack.sf.net/ - instructions and equipment ideas (needs work)
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ - biohack wiki for DIY sequencing etc.
http://openwetware.org/ - excellent wiki
http://biodatabase.org/ - for bioinformatics
http://diybio.org/ - Boston group (May 1 = first group meet)
http://biopunk.org/ - subculture

But if you want to go closed source:
http://decodeme.com/
http://23andme.com/
... among others. See a wiki: http://snpedia.com/

http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_sequencing
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/$0_genomics_project
http://personalgenomes.org/

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:57:08 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:57:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Me, my electromagnetic field and I - Don't Tase me Bro!
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804171757.08329.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
> I understand that each of us has a distinct electromagnetic field.
> ?If this is correct, what does that field do? ?How might it be
> effected by an MRI? How might it be effected by a taser?

Please be careful here. There are many kooks on the internet that talk 
about conscious and magnetic fields, and while there are magnetic 
fields that are important within the brain on the very microscopic 
scale, don't get trapped into the broader stuff. However! fMRI and MRI 
are in fact true technologies and have been demonstrated to work, I 
would suggest looking up open-rtms-list on transcentmentalism.org or 
something, etc. Allen Kay, I believe, has used rTMS to induce savantism 
in ordinary people. I have been busy coming up with schematics to work 
on this on my own. You can turn off regions of the brain with 
frequencies. Given low voltage rTMS machines, you can start to feel 
tingly sensations throughout your body, as if they are on your skin 
etc., just with a head cap and targetting the motor cortex. I am not 
exactly sure how the targetting works yet. I'll get back to you on 
this.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 17 22:58:22 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:58:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200804171758.22638.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
> It's said that yesterday's mashed potatoes become today's grey
> matter. ?What is the term for the process whereby the molecules of
> which we are comprised are replaced over time?

You are what you eat -- you are what you cache.
http://fusionanomaly.net/
http://nexusofnow.org/
http://eugen.leitl.org/ for a good cache
~/cache/ (me) has lots of interesting stuff.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 17 23:15:19 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:15:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Me, my electromagnetic field and I
In-Reply-To: <200804171757.08329.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170910h4747ebf3m1f57ca4edd2136b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804171757.08329.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417181351.02634a90@satx.rr.com>

At 05:57 PM 4/17/2008 -0500, Bryan wrote:

>Allen Kay, I believe, has used rTMS to induce savantism
>in ordinary people.

Perhaps you mean Allan Snyder?

<http://www.centreforthemind.com/director/index.cfm> 



From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 01:12:30 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:12:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>

>Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over! Oh, wait, it goes on:

I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because?we have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and?a new?ice age is knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming?while happily cashing that big fat cheque. It makes me want to set fire to a big pile of tyres.
It?just about says it all when you see that those who were shouting about global cooling just a few decades ago and screaming for tax increases. Are now shouting about global warming and you guessed it, screaming for tax increases.

When 'experts' start rewriting excepted scientific principles to support their own interpretation of?censored data, when media coverage of all opposition is also censored and anyone with a dissenting voice is called an Earth rapist. You know its just a witch hunt. What happened to the medieval warm period? It seems? never to have happened. Where is the consensus? I can't see it. I must have missed the end of the debate, I think it must have ended with all dissenters being shot, thus argument settled. Shameful derailing of the scientific process and a damning indictment of the state of our media driven scientifically illiterate society.

How can you defeat such ignorance and blatant fraud? Show me the facts, not the opinions. 
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........
Alex

P.S? alternative energy=excellent idea in its own right, We don't need lies and unjustified taxation. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:48
Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease



At 08:56 AM 4/17/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm
>
>Summary:
>
>* Global temperatures for 2008 will be slightly cooler than last year.

Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over! Oh, wait, it goes on:

>But this year's temperatures would still be way above the average - 
>and we would soon exceed the record year of 1998 because of global 
>warming induced by greenhouse gases....
>Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any 
>particular year is larger than these small temperature differences.
>What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Damien Broderick
[There we were this morning, tearing along the freeway at 80, then we 
went on a feeder and slowed for a red light. For the last 20 seconds, 
our speed dropped well below 80. In fact, it went to zero! A new 
trend! No-ideological-bullshit-conclusion: traveling from now on will 
be really, really slow]



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 02:22:13 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:22:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com>
	<00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>
Message-ID: <8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>

I am sure you realised that 'shutter speed' referred to the timeframe of measurement and not the use of cameras. Just thought i'd clarify that in case?someone has visions of me taking snapshots down a microscope.?Thanks for the references, It is a subject which interests me , but I previously?have not had sufficient time to study to it to any serious degree. It is on my to do list :o)
Do you have any references to more recent works or current experiments?

I have to admit that I like the idea of a fractalic universe and as a nuts and bolts type of person, my own idea of an experiment that would show the position of electrons. Or at least show they don't occupy every available position. would be to fire discrete particles through the electron path at a perpendicular angle. Any impact would show the presence of an electron and a lack of impact would prove an absence. no? just like shooting between the blades of a ww2 biplane. 
Useless for measurement without disrupting the system being measured, but it would prove something about the electron position.
Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:31
Subject: Re: [ExI] John A. Wheeler



Alex:
I have always thought that a large problem 
in quantum measurement is the 'shutter speed'. [etc.]

# While position measurements are not performed
using cameras and shutters [1], it is true there is an 
impossibility of any sharp distinction between the
behaviour of atomic objects and the interaction
with the measuring instruments which serve to define
the conditions under which the phenomena appear.
This conspiracy has different names and faces, like
Bohr's complementarity [2], WAY theorem, KS contextuality.

[1]  The theoretical treatment of a very fast shutter requires (imo)
a time-dependent Schroedinger equation, and it is (imo) a difficult
subject. See,ie, Marcos Moshinshy 'Diffraction in Time', Physical Review, 
vol. 88, n. 3, (1952), pages 625-631.

[2] 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action, 
we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained 
in the description of atomic phenomena. In particular, 
any attempt at an ordering in space-time leads to 
a break in the causal chain, since such an attempt
is bound up with an essential exchange of momentum 
and energy between the individuals and the measuring
rods and clocks used for observation; and just this 
exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring 
instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, 
any conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the
strict conservation of energy and momentum, with
regard to the dynamical behaviour of the individual 
units obviously necessitates a complete renunciation 
of following their course in space and time'.
-N.Bohr, 'Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature', 
pp. 97-8, Cambridge University Press, 1934



________________________________________________________________________
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 03:19:50 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:19:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>

At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:

> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>
>I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming

Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
claims being pilloried!>?

Damien Broderick



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 03:30:40 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:30:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804172230.41166.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 17 April 2008, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is over!

Rant [not specifically re: above]:

It is irresponsible for anybody to view news about global warming 
without specifically coming up with a plan of action to deal with the 
situation, whether you want to reduce the global average temperature 
dx, or if you want to promote space habitats for humans, or if you want 
to do bioconservation, whatever. Just linking to news and promoting 
hype isn't really helping the situation: if it's really all that 
serious, then hell, start generating ideas, it's your env too. :) End 
rant.

- Bryan
________________________________________
http://heybryan.org/


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Sat Apr 12 23:14:10 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:14:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] LA Times: A health message listeners can
	relate to
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30804121509u10f5e271r82172c676dd7476e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29666bf30804121509u10f5e271r82172c676dd7476e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550804121614i4fdfa28bu25894e4b98739180@mail.gmail.com>

Right you are, PJ: People are moved more by narratives about folks just like
them than they are by facts and arguments. H+ would become more popular if
we had a Transhumanist Harry Potter. Now if only someone would write that
book....(hint, hint!).

Regards,
Mike LaTorra

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 4:09 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> In the past, I've discussed the issue of communicating complicated or
> confrontive concepts, like H+, to the general public.  Storytelling
> works.  Instead of listening to their doctors or assimilating and
> applying information from news sources (all of which they appear to
> reject) what seems to hit these listeners where they live are the
> stories about people just like them, battling the same diseases and
> making crucial medical and lifestyle choices.  Living through these
> character making the choices they themselves must make to survive,
> they find the transition to better choices easier and fulfilling.
>
> Talk about storytelling and empathy saving lives.
>
> PJ
>
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-radio11apr11,1,764846.story
>
> From the Los Angeles Times
> COLUMN ONE
> A health message listeners can relate to
> In the serialized radio drama 'BodyLove,' characters wrestle with
> diabetes and high blood pressure along with traditional soap-opera
> problems. They get through to audiences in a way doctors can't.
> By Stephanie Simon
> Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
>
> ....
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From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 01:30:46 2008
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:30:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] plain text
In-Reply-To: <009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <004d01c8a013$b044a290$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<200804170151.m3H1oijS027211@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<ee50357e0804170047y6107bf65ka7d09838e820c89b@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20804170301i3a8fbfd5i6b31458218852e07@mail.gmail.com>
	<009f01c8a0a1$9b37bfc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <918a899d0804171830p53c83ebch45f14ffd0035cd0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Stefano wrote
>
>
> > However, if you want to profit from HTML features,
> > there is no alternative. And yes, in many cases this
> > is unnecessary and equivalents can be found (e.g.
> > *bold*, /italic/, etc.). On the other hand, losing
> > hyperlinks is sometimes a pity.
>
> Why can't the hyperlink be converted to plain text?
> I myself often copy things into a plain-text editor
> to get rid of html before posting, and I've never had
> any problem with links failing to show up.
>

>From a purely philosophical point of view, I find it interesting that we are
debating how best to bring everyone's level of posting to the lowest common
denominator (plain text) to suit the wishes of a very small minority of
individuals, rather than discussing how we can improve their own technology
to avail themselves of the best the list can, in theory, offer (html).
Hyperlinks are only one of many things that could get tossed in the
interests of accommodating the horse-and-buggy set.

There exist competent HTML mail programs that won't offer duplicates,
security programs (or settings in the aforementioned mail programs) that
will avail against malicious attachments, and so forth. Use 'em, sez I.

Joseph
http://www.seculartranshumanist.com
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 18 05:16:26 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:16:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200804180543.m3I5h7HF013309@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
> ... 
> Damien Broderick
> ...
> 
> Likewise, liberal blogs overwhelmingly link to other liberal 
> blogs or news sources. But with conservative blogs, the 
> tendency is much more pronounced; it is almost a sealed universe. Damien
Broderick


That observation would be entirely dependent upon how the orientation of the
blog is defined.  How does one objectively measure its liberality or
conservativity?  Can we invent a system whereby the number is the same when
I measure it and when you measure it?  Otherwise the above observation is
meaningless. 

spike






From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 06:18:48 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:18:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<01c301c89cb7$e2d77b60$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01c8a11c$4d4828b0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

John Grigg writes

> Lee Corbin wrote:
>>There is utterly no reason to worry about slavery in a high-tech future.
> 
> I am not so sure.  I could see a powerful individual/government
> ploying slavery not out of a desire for economic profit but simply
>  "enjoy" degrading former enemies and to eliminate the need to
> ust others (humans have trouble with this!).

Over time, humans have had less and less "trouble" with this
(this urge to inflict pain or witness it). Every generation (controlling
for wealth, ethnicity, and many other variables), people become
nicer, and this has been going on for hundreds of years. Maybe
it's in part explainable as "being nice" or being generous is a
luxury, and that as we become freer of the threat of dire necessity,
so this change proceeds.

If it isn't *people* who dominate in the future, then it's pretty much
up in the air what the goals will be of our successors. However, I
don't see much chance---what would be the mechanism?---for
the development of gratuitous cruelty.

> I also envision the slavery of genetically engineered biological
> ntients who are created for such tasks as warfare or sex work.
> Never having known freedom, they may not even fully realize
> what they are missing as they carry out their appointed roles
> in their society.

If they've been created to do work (i.e. for some purpose), then
in my view they belong to their creators. And for me, it's especially
unproblematical if aren't suffering, but are rather enjoying it. (And
why shouldn't they enjoy it? Even now, drugs are cheap, and 
there shouldn't be a premium at all on a very pleasant existence
in the future for created entities.)

Lee

> And then there is the subject of artificial intelligence slavery/AI civil rights...



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 06:43:51 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:43:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien points out


> This is hardly news, but it's not a bad pop summary of in-built 
> cognitive limitations:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?th&emc=th>
> 
> <We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices....
> 
> This resistance to information that doesn't mesh with our 
> preconceived beliefs afflicts both liberals and conservatives,
> but a raft of studies shows that it is a particular problem with 
> conservatives.

Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
things along the lines of counting the political opposition
as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for spouting his
"nonsense".

And then we had "The Authoritarian Personality". The urge
to go after the opposition this way, especially after conservatives,
is hardly dead. Much newer, but still with mostly the same
old ideological biases is "The Authoritarians"
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ by Altemeyer.
I wish I could find the quite stunning refutation of that
that I read a while back. There's this, but it's not as good:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/9/9/163159/0532

But I don't think that this on-the-whole lamentable tendency to
reinforce our own prejudices is all bad. It may partly simply
be a byproduct of trying to learn more. For example, I used
to be able to listen to talk shows or read editorials by my
political opposites or religious opposites, but so often now,
even the first few  sentences contain implicit propositions that
simply no longer make any sense to me. If you've decided
long ago, for example, that Darwinism is opposed to the
Lord's teaching---or vice versa---there is a definite limit to
what you can learn from your opposites' explanations.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 06:52:21 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:52:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re:  Global Temperatures to Decrease)
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Damien writes


> At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:
> 
>> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
>> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>>
>> I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>> on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>> have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>> knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming
> 
> Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
> warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
> claims being pilloried!>?

It looks to me as though Alex saw through (thankfully!) your
ironical retort, because he's rebutting the point you're *really*
making, no? 

Or am I missing something?   Recap:  Lee links to "not warming", then
Damien implies "global warming is not bullshit", and then Alex rebuts
the global warming "meme". 

But I totally agree that we cannot do without irony and sarcasm on
this list. At least I can't   :-)

Lee



From amara at amara.com  Fri Apr 18 08:56:59 2008
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:56:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
 or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
Message-ID: <p06230901c42e11f409ec@[192.168.1.70]>


>But I totally agree that we cannot do without irony and sarcasm on
>this list. At least I can't   :-)
>
>Lee

resending an old message

--------------sent 5/23/02 to extropians--------------------------------

To: extropians at extropy.org
From: Amara Graps <amara at amara.com>
Subject: Communication Skills books


_Messages: The Communication Skills Book_ by Matthew McKay, Martha Davis,
and Patrick Fanning, 1983, New Harbinger Publications. How to communicate
effectively, for example showing a difference between aggressive
communication (such as sarcasm) and assertive communication.

-- also:
_How to Argue and Win Every Time_ by Gerry Spence. I like very much
Spence's perspective on stories.


-------------------------------------

greetings from Tallinn,
Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD      www.amara.com
Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado


From scerir at libero.it  Fri Apr 18 08:59:03 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:59:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com><00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>
	<8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>

Alex:
> Do you have any references to more recent works
> or current experiments?

"Turning now to the question of the empirical support
[about the uncertainty principle], we unhesitatingly
declare that rarely in the history of physics
has there been a principle of such universal importance
with so few credentials of experimental tests".
-Max Jammer, 1974.

Not sure that things changed so much in the last 35 years.
Perhaps Bush & Lahti wrote something at the end of this
paper http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0609185 (see chapter 7).

But experiments more or less about uncertainty principle
(the famous EPR is a gedanken experiment about that)
are now performed using bi-photons (two momentum-position
entangled photons, or two time-energy entangled photons).
www.physik.fu-berlin.de/~simons/Publikationen/RevModPhys99.pdf
http://techdigest.jhuapl.edu/td1604/Franson.pdf
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0106078
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201036
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0503073
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0512207

> [...] my own idea of an experiment that would show the
> position of electrons. Or at least show they don't occupy 
> every available position. would be to fire discrete particles 
> through the electron path at a perpendicular angle. 
> Any impact would show the presence of an electron and a
> lack of impact would prove an absence. no? 

Good luck. 
But there is some difference between
the - ex ante - 'probability cloud' 
and the - ex post - tiny particle. 
And ... attention to the nodal plane
of the orbitals ...
http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/p-orbital-paradox.html 





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 10:22:09 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:22:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Transumanisti] Uscito il primo numero di Divenire
In-Reply-To: <fu86eo+mhdd@eGroups.com>
References: <fu86eo+mhdd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20804180322n646e24ane2f868e08880e06c@mail.gmail.com>

I am very proud to inform you that the first issue of "Divenire -
Rassegna di studi interdisciplinari sulla tecnica e il postumano", the
Associazione Italiana Transumanisti-sponsored first European
transhumanist review on paper, is eventually out, as per the
announcement below of our beloved chairman, Riccardo Campa, to the
Italian list.

>From the presentation:

"Il volume ? diviso in quattro sezioni principali: Attualit?,
Genealogia, Futurologia, Libreria. Nella sezione 'Attualit?' compaiono
studi attinenti a problematiche metatecniche del presente. La sezione
'Genealogia' ? invece dedicata a studi storici sui precursori delle
attuali tendenze transumaniste, futuriste, prometeiche ? dunque sul
passato della metatecnica. Nella sezione 'Futurologia' trovano spazio
esplorazioni ipotetiche del futuro, da parte di futurologi di
professione o di scrittori di fantascienza. La sezione 'Libreria' ?
infine dedicata alle analisi critiche di libri concernenti la
tecnoscienza, il postumano, il transumanesimo.
Nel numero 1/2008, per la sezione 'Attualit?' abbiamo un intervento
sui fondamenti dell'etica nell'era della tecnoscienza del filosofo
Alberto Masala, ricercatore della Sorbona, ed un articolo del giurista
Stefano Vaj sulla riproduzione artificiale. Nella sezione intitolata
'Genealogia', il lettore trover? un saggio di Riccardo Campa su Leon
Trotsky e la sua visione ipertecnologica del socialismo, nonch? uno
studio del filosofo e giornalista Adriano Scianca sulla concezione
superomistica dell'Operaio elaborata da J?nger. Per quanto riguarda la
'Futurologia', il presente volume accoglie un articolo sulla
Singolarit? tecnologica dello scrittore Giovanni De Matteo, vincitore
del Premio Urania 2006 con il romanzo Sezione Pi-Quadro. Infine, nella
'Libreria' del numero 1/2008, vengono valutate due opere letterarie.
Il Prof. Giuseppe Marcon, ordinario di Economia all'Universit? Ca'
Foscari di Venezia, ci propone una dettagliata recensione del libro di
Riccardo Campa 'Etica della scienza pura', mentre il giovane filosofo
Francesco Boco si ? assunto il compito di recensire l'interessante
volume di Aldo Schiavone 'Storia e destino'."

Everyone interested in submitting essays for upcoming issues is
welcome to do so. As for the language of the manuscripts, French,
German, English, Spanish, Polish, Portoguese, and obviously Italian,
are fine.

Stefano Vaj

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Riccardo Campa <riccardo_campa at yahoo.com>
Date: 2008/4/17
Subject: [Transumanisti] Uscito il primo numero di Divenire
To: Transumanisti at yahoogroups.com

Cari amici e associati, ho il piacere di comunicarvi che e' uscito il
 primo numero di Divenire, la nostra rivista cartacea acquistabile
 presso l'editore e in varie librerie virtuali.
 Per i contenuti del numero 1/2008 vedi qui:
 http://www.sestanteedizioni.com
 (sezione saggistica)

 Ciao,
 Riccardo


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 13:00:35 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:00:35 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/04/2008, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

> You may say that soldiers or sex workers, etc., could simply be human-like
> hardware bots instead of wetware biologicals.  But I bet some future
> societies will want to augment their "hardware bot resources" with sentient
> biologicals (both out of sentimentality and perhaps practicality, machines
> may not be able to do everything better).

I can't imagine that anyone would use resentful biologicals if
machines can do an equal or better job and either not mind or love it.
The only reason for doing this would be sadism. There are some
sadists, of course, but the vast majority of the vast amount of evil
in human history is not driven by sadism. Bad people are bad because
they gain something out of it other than pleasure in badness.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 13:07:54 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:07:54 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com>
	<012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/04/2008, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

>  Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
>  things along the lines of counting the political opposition
>  as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
>  number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
>  that Barry Goldwater was mentally ill for spouting his
>  "nonsense".

Mental illness is not a social construct any more than hepatitis or
renal failure is a social construct.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Apr 18 13:14:19 2008
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:14:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20080417152214.023e36c8@satx.rr.com><012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f21c22e30804180607k471c9392m803801d81754cf77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015301c8a156$7ce23cc0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stathis writes


> Lee wrote:
> 
>>  Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? At least
>>  things along the lines of counting the political opposition
>>  as retarded or mentally ill are less prevalent today. A huge
>>  number of psychiatrists in the 1960s were willing to affirm
>>  that [one candidate] was mentally ill for spouting his "nonsense".
> 
> Mental illness is not a social construct any more than hepatitis or
> renal failure is a social construct.

What is your opinion of Thomas Szasz's claims, e.g., "The Myth
of Mental Illness"?

Lee



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 14:34:08 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:34:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804180734h1ee4e921k2aa18afe21605fc7@mail.gmail.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
If they've been created to do work (i.e. for some purpose), then
in my view they belong to their creators. And for me, it's especially
unproblematical if aren't suffering, but are rather enjoying it. (And
why shouldn't they enjoy it? Even now, drugs are cheap, and
there shouldn't be a premium at all on a very pleasant existence
in the future for created entities.)
>>>

Oh, my gosh!  I can't believe you said these things! : (  I feel like you
are advocating the "enlightened" enslaving of genetically engineered
sentients!  A biological sentient conditioned by drugs and/or genetic
engineering to enjoy his/her/its slavery (oh, but they will never use this
word...) is still a slave.  "Oh, brave new world!"

you wrote:
If they've been created to do work (i.e. for some purpose), then
in my view they belong to their creators.
>>>

This would be very very wrong.  But I could see laws set up whereby a
"created" sentient is a decently treated "endentured servant" for a number
of years to "pay back" their creator.  At a certain point the sentient gets
the choice of moving on, all debts paid, or staying on and being reimbursed
like a regular employee for their work.

John Grigg
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From mark at cosmicpenguin.com  Fri Apr 18 05:58:49 2008
From: mark at cosmicpenguin.com (Mark S Bilk)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:58:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080418055849.GB14312@Isis>

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 05:52:12PM -0400, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
>...
>My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
>that happens to us physically?

How about _anabolism_: a metabolic process in which energy 
is used to make compounds and tissues from simple molecules



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 18 15:15:49 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:15:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
In-Reply-To: <012601c8a11f$cf4a99d0$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200804181516.m3IFFodN008930@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Lee Corbin
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:44 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: [ExI] Reinforcing our Prejudices
> 
> Damien points out
> 
> 
> > This is hardly news, but it's not a bad pop summary of in-built 
> > cognitive limitations:
> > 
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?th&emc=th>
> > 
> > <We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices....
> > 
> > This resistance to information that doesn't mesh with our 
> > preconceived beliefs afflicts both liberals and conservatives...
>

>  That observation would be entirely dependent upon how the orientation of
the blog is defined... spike
 
> Perhaps reinforcing the researchers' own biases? ... Lee

This gave me a hell of an idea.  An individual cannot objectively decide if
a blog is conservative or liberal, for her own biases are inescapable.  But
a group may be able to do so.  Here is my experiment.  Suggest any number of
blogs, websites, news sites, etc that can be accessed by internet.  Then
choose one or the other: more liberal or more conservative.  Let's use 0 for
more liberal and 1 for more conservative, since 0 is to the left of 1.  Rate
as many or as few as you want on the list, or rate the ones you already know
about.  For instance, my list might be:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php  (1)
http://www.electoral-vote.com/  (0)
http://victorhanson.com/index.html  (1)
http://www.dailykos.com/  (0)

Post them to me offlist if you wish, or posting here would be OK, but it
might influence others' ratings.  I will compile them into a spreadsheet and
calculate a rating that can be reproduced by other groups.

spike 








From scerir at libero.it  Fri Apr 18 15:17:16 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:17:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI]  Edward Lorenz
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com><00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede><8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>
	<000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <000301c8a167$4c713490$17e71e97@archimede>

Edward N. Lorenz died (on April 16).
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5isDQYRWLiBvPDklguo8vjtzlN1tQ
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/18/db1801.xml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Norton_Lorenz

His 'Attractor'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_attractor
http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~ldb/seminar/attractors.html

The 'Butterfly' effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

One of his (old) papers
http://tinyurl.com/3dw95d





From kevinfreels at insightbb.com  Fri Apr 18 15:23:39 2008
From: kevinfreels at insightbb.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:23:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yesterday's Mashed Potatoes
In-Reply-To: <20080418055849.GB14312@Isis>
References: <a69380f0804170914j10bfa317wf88c0832605a29b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208452990_2826@s7.cableone.net>
	<a69380f0804171452o4b1154e4t532cc8907f977cf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080418055849.GB14312@Isis>
Message-ID: <4808BCFB.8070203@insightbb.com>

Or much more basic - cell division.....


Mark S Bilk wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 05:52:12PM -0400, Rick Strongitharm wrote:
>   
>> ...
>> My question stands.  Specifically, what is the term for the regeneration
>> that happens to us physically?
>>     
>
> How about _anabolism_: a metabolic process in which energy 
> is used to make compounds and tissues from simple molecules
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   
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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 15:57:15 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:57:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
 or Miscommunication? (Was Re:  Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677><7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com><8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <8CA6F8401C21CC1-1154-79D@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>


LOL, I think that sums it up. However apologies for the rant. It wasn't directed entirely at Damien, his post was mainly?just the catalyst which caught me in a bad mood at the end of a long day.
Irony, Sarcasm, any form of humour, It's all good with me. I agree it is essential for a healthy list and my real apology is that I didn't have the strength to include much in my?rant.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 7:52
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony, or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)



Damien writes


> At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:
> 
>> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
>> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>>
>> I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>> on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>> have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>> knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming
> 
> Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
> warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
> claims being pilloried!>?

It looks to me as though Alex saw through (thankfully!) your
ironical retort, because he's rebutting the point you're *really*
making, no? 

Or am I missing something?   Recap:  Lee links to "not warming", then
Damien implies "global warming is not bullshit", and then Alex rebuts
the global warming "meme". 

But I totally agree that we cannot do without irony and sarcasm on
this list. At least I can't   :-)

Lee

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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 16:00:01 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:00:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CA6F84644961E1-1154-7BE@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>

Damien, not at all. You just caught me at a bad time and the subject hit a nerve. Your irony wasn't lost and was received in the spirit it was given. It was my response that was lacking the irony needed.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 4:19
Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Temperatures to Decrease



At 09:12 PM 4/17/2008 -0400, ablainey wrote:

> >Damien said: Yayyy! All that bullshit "global warming" panic is 
> over! Oh, wait, it goes on:
>
>I think this particularly insidious and damaging meme will just go 
>on and on and on.......Even when all the trees are dying because we 
>have sequestered all that CO2 (tree food), and a new ice age is 
>knocking on the door? They will still be blaming it all on Global warming

Omg. Am I really going to have to label my sarcastic retorts with 
warnings: <bitter irony alert! do not quote in support of silly 
claims being pilloried!>?

Damien Broderick

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Apr 18 16:04:55 2008
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:04:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] John A. Wheeler
In-Reply-To: <000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>
References: <200804160407.m3G46xtH003384@andromeda.ziaspace.com><088c01c89fff$6480f930$94094797@archimede>	<7.0.1.0.2.20080416160030.023b2680@satx.rr.com><000301c8a056$7a181790$2de41e97@archimede>	<8CA6E772D8B2EF9-163C-4F4@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com><00ec01c8a097$ad279f20$8b0b4797@archimede>	<8CA6F122599D67D-1768-2C36@WEBMAIL-MA11.sysops.aol.com>
	<000301c8a132$7622fba0$8ce71e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <8CA6F8513DB6501-1154-811@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks for the links. It will probably take a while to digest it all. Interesting that there hasn't been that much movement in the past few decades, or seems that way.
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 9:59
Subject: Re: [ExI] John A. Wheeler



Alex:
> Do you have any references to more recent works
> or current experiments?

"Turning now to the question of the empirical support
[about the uncertainty principle], we unhesitatingly
declare that rarely in the history of physics
has there been a principle of such universal importance
with so few credentials of experimental tests".
-Max Jammer, 1974.

Not sure that things changed so much in the last 35 years.
Perhaps Bush & Lahti wrote something at the end of this
paper http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0609185 (see chapter 7).

But experiments more or less about uncertainty principle
(the famous EPR is a gedanken experiment about that)
are now performed using bi-photons (two momentum-position
entangled photons, or two time-energy entangled photons).
www.physik.fu-berlin.de/~simons/Publikationen/RevModPhys99.pdf
http://techdigest.jhuapl.edu/td1604/Franson.pdf
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0106078
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201036
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0503073
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0512207

> [...] my own idea of an experiment that would show the
> position of electrons. Or at least show they don't occupy 
> every available position. would be to fire discrete particles 
> through the electron path at a perpendicular angle. 
> Any impact would show the presence of an electron and a
> lack of impact would prove an absence. no? 

Good luck. 
But there is some difference between
the - ex ante - 'probability cloud' 
and the - ex post - tiny particle. 
And ... attention to the nodal plane
of the orbitals ...
http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/p-orbital-paradox.html 



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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Apr 18 15:32:44 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:32:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Slavery in the Future
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>

At 06:00 AM 4/18/2008, Stathis wrote:
>On 18/04/2008, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You may say that soldiers or sex workers, etc., could simply be human-like
> > hardware bots instead of wetware biologicals.  But I bet some future
> > societies will want to augment their "hardware bot resources" with sentient
> > biologicals (both out of sentimentality and perhaps practicality, machines
> > may not be able to do everything better).
>
>I can't imagine that anyone would use resentful biologicals if
>machines can do an equal or better job and either not mind or love it.

Exactly.  In the future biologicals or machines will be designed so 
they love what they do.  I.e., Suskulan who gives the villigers what 
they want.  Poof!

>The only reason for doing this would be sadism. There are some
>sadists, of course, but the vast majority of the vast amount of evil
>in human history is not driven by sadism. Bad people are bad because
>they gain something out of it other than pleasure in badness.

I think it's more complicated and worse in a way.  Most of what we 
consider evil is just the outcome of evolved mechanisms that--when 
prospects look bleak--go into a mode that fixes the problem.  Since 
almost all such problems can be fixed by reducing the population, 
that's what happens.

Keith 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 16:38:54 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:38:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
 or Miscommunication? (Was Re:  Global  Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>

At 11:52 PM 4/17/2008 -0700, Lee wrote:

>It looks to me as though Alex saw through (thankfully!) your
>ironical retort, because he's rebutting the point you're *really*
>making, no?
>
>Or am I missing something?   Recap:  Lee links to "not warming", then
>Damien implies "global warming is not bullshit",

There were two steps in what I posted.

The first was to point out *from your own source* that what you were 
citing made exactly the *contrary* argument to yours.

The second, bracketed after my name, was ironical: a sort of 
equivalent bogus "argument" proving that traffic on highways is 
slowing down. What my sarcastic counter-example tried to undermine 
was the structure of inference in Lee's post.

>and then Alex rebuts
>the global warming "meme".

Alex failed to rebut anything I said, which is why I took his 
comments the way I did (evidently in error). He *asserted* that 
anthropogenic global climate change was non-existent, without making 
any rebuttal of Lee's citation from a climate scientist. He expressed 
vehement *disagreement*--

<Where is the consensus? I can't see it. I must have missed the end 
of the debate, I think it must have ended with all dissenters being 
shot, thus argument settled. Shameful derailing of the scientific 
process and a damning indictment of the state of our media driven 
scientifically illiterate society. How can you defeat such ignorance 
and blatant fraud? Show me the facts, not the opinions. >

--without any attempt (other than a reference to past fluctuations) 
to show that this is incorrect:

 >Researchers say the uncertainty in the observed value for any
 >particular year is larger than these small temperature differences.
 >What matters, they say, is the long-term upward trend.

Calling "I think it must have ended with all dissenters being shot" a 
*rebuttal* is the same class of error made by the media when people 
are said to have "refuted" a charge against them when all they've 
done is *denied* it.

Damien Broderick






From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 17:04:52 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:04:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Use of Irony,
	or Miscommunication? (Was Re: Global Temperatures to Decrease)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
References: <00a301c8a0a3$b6550e00$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417144020.0262ac60@satx.rr.com>
	<8CA6F08681253B0-7D8-1A33@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080417221404.024acbc0@satx.rr.com>
	<013f01c8a121$36ab7c60$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418111921.0270ff30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0804181004g23f30c05qd5e421cdc3252084@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>
>  There were two steps in what I posted.
>
>  The first was to point out *from your own source* that what you were
>  citing made exactly the *contrary* argument to yours.
>
>  The second, bracketed after my name, was ironical: a sort of
>  equivalent bogus "argument" proving that traffic on highways is
>  slowing down. What my sarcastic counter-example tried to undermine
>  was the structure of inference in Lee's post.
>


This reply is so ironical, it has become post-ironical, gone into
another universe and come back round the other side.


BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 18 17:50:37 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:50:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad people
In-Reply-To: <1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<081d01c89ce1$21d91a70$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<027001c89cf3$35443e70$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804130629m149d0dbah91d5ff97f5e58af0@mail.gmail.com>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418124233.02322d20@satx.rr.com>

At 08:32 AM 4/18/2008 -0700, Keith wrote:

> >The only reason for doing this would be sadism. There are some
> >sadists, of course, but the vast majority of the vast amount of evil
> >in human history is not driven by sadism. Bad people are bad because
> >they gain something out of it other than pleasure in badness.
>
>I think it's more complicated and worse in a way.  Most of what we
>consider evil is just the outcome of evolved mechanisms that--when
>prospects look bleak--go into a mode that fixes the problem.

At least some bad people are bad because (it seems) their brains are 
wired for what's called "borderline personality disorder." This seems 
to be an emergent condition induced by circumstances in their life 
that, had the circumstances been more benign, might have not produced 
a mad, bad sociopath. The behavioral bias seems to be endogenous, not 
purely environmental. A popsci book on the topic that's moderately 
worth reading (it's not terrifically rigorous) is EVIL GENES, by 
Barbara Oakley. It has an amusing subtitle (look for it on amazon) 
that cashes out into a rather grim tale. I've known at least one 
person like this, and the damaged people she's interacted with from a 
position of power.

Damien Broderick 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 18:09:10 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:09:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bad people
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20080418124233.02322d20@satx.rr.com>
References: <017d01c892f3$9cabeb80$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<038d01c89d94$cc984130$6601a8c0@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<7641ddc60804150901i7e384ecfh30fef487f0459193@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670804151054k52bd9b5y19157ca5efd63947@mail.gmail.com>
	<7641ddc60804161817i5612197v6972bb3fc0387d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<009301c8a0a0$e7173b10$6401a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<2d6187670804170904x74340a7egbe0a8ce87858bdae@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30804180600y1e0e985at4dba39f13c016ea1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1208532872_2900@S4.cableone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20080418124233.02322d20@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670804181109g24858812t5d348ee42e2ae1ab@mail.gmail.com>

"The Sociopath Next Door" is also a book worth checking out.

http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208542071&sr=8-1


John : (
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 19:03:05 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:03:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Richard Dawkins Lecture & Aubrey de Grey, too!
Message-ID: <2d6187670804181203u142ef25ar5170347a83b09164@mail.gmail.com>

I went to a Richard Dawkins lecture at ASU and it was excellent. I was not
quite sure what to expect of the man but I found him to be mild mannered (I
somehow expected the angry atheist stereotype), charming in that classic
British gentlemanly way, and at times extremely funny. He started off with a
statement that occurred to me many years ago, "why do children usually
follow in their parent's religion, and why does that particular religion
just so happen to be the only true and right one?" lol I personally believe
in God but it was good to have him put my beliefs up to a mirror for closer
examination. His slideshow presentation was the focal point of his humorous
asides. And yes, Monty Python was excerpted at several points!

Dawkins surprised me by declaring that he is agnostic and not a 100% atheist
in that he feels there is a very small chance of their being some sort of
powerful deity/super being out there. He just sees no current evidence for
it. The other surprise was that Dawkins (reminded me of the Star Trek 5
plot) considers it an actual duty of science in the decades/centuries ahead
to "track down and contact" God, should such a being actually exist, but be
hanging back and waiting for us to reach out to it. I can envision people
being brought back from cryonic suspension and getting told, "oh, Seti
contacted intelligent alien life decades ago, and now they are trying to
make contact with God!" heehee

He also made the Greater Phoenix/Tempe community proud by saying, "in ALL
his travels to speak, he has never spoken to a crowd as large as what ASU
produced for him!" The crowd cheered and clapped wildly at that! lol The
Gammage Performing Arts Building can seat over 3,000 and only a tiny handful
of seats were empty! I wanted to shake his hand and get an autograph but the
line to see him was several hundred feet long and I had to work the next day
(the man is surely a celebrity and I was glad to see police standing behind
him, just in case). I finally gave up on waiting! lol

Since taking in his lecture I have seen the several crazy episodes of
Southpark where he made his "guest appearance." The teaching of evolution in
public schools was the major plot point and done as only Southpark does it!
Dawkins is shown as a very kind and proper gentleman, but what the writers
"did with him" really floored me. In an interview Dawkins stated that if
there was a serious point to the episodes that he could not discern it! And
he was also bothered by the fake British accent "he" was given by the voice
actor who played him.

The Dawkins lecture started at the very same time as a debate across town
starring Aubrey de Grey "up against" Jay Olshansky. Arghh! lol I chose to
see Dawkins. Aubrey thought this was the right choice (I bumped into him the
day before at ASU, he had both a Christian Bioethics Conference and a
Methusalah Mouse meeting to attend!), and he said his debate would likely be
recorded and I could get a copy.
It was a pleasure to learn more about each of these great men.

John Grigg  : )
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr 18 20:19:35 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:19:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] plain text
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On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
>  Why can't