From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 05:49:35 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 00:49:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Born to Run? Little Ones Get Test for Sports Gene
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30811301422r2bc41d5fv988d4a6bf754e3e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29666bf30811301422r2bc41d5fv988d4a6bf754e3e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240811302149v2b88ce83l5777f886ea7999e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:22 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Parents will start to say, 'I know one mom who's doing the test on
> her son, so maybe we should do the test too,' " she said.
>
> "Peer pressure and curiosity would send people over the edge. What if
> my son could be a pro football player and I don't know it?"

Sick.

Sorry for the short, almost pointless post.  I felt like adding
something here, but I can't think of what more there would be to say.


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec  1 06:08:13 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:08:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Born to Run? Little Ones Get Test for Sports Gene
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30811301422r2bc41d5fv988d4a6bf754e3e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200812010634.mB16Yqw4011022@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ...On Behalf Of PJ Manney
> Subject: [ExI] NYT: Born to Run? Little Ones Get Test for Sports Gene
> 
> ...Reminds me of a 
> LA Clippers vs. LA Lakers game I attended 8 years ago.  Earl 
> Boykins was playing guard with the LA Clippers and he blew my 
> mind -- at 5'5" (165 cm), he was the greatest bundle of 
> energy and speed on the court...


Mechanical engineers among us will get this one.  The short guys sometimes
play basketball like a bat outta hell.  They can be lightning quick compared
to the bigger guys because of a scaling law.  If one imagines scaling up a
human keeping all proportions constant, one sees that as the height
increases linearly, the cross section area of the muscles (thus the
strength) would increase as the square, the mass increases as the cube and
the moment of inertia of the limbs increases as the fifth power.  

If we imagine a nominal human, then with all proportions constant, double
her height.  Her theoretical strength increases by four, her mass by eight,
and the moment of inertia (and thus the force required to produce any given
angular acceleration) is increased by a factor of 32.  Consequently, in
sports we see some interesting characteristics: 	

	-the short basketball players are quick as lightning, 
	-the best gymnasts are always tiny and nimble, 
	-featherweight boxers are so fast it is difficult to score the
matches.

On this last point, if you get a chance to watch olympic style boxing, the
little guys are always the most interesting and difficult to count the
number of blows.  They seldom have enough strength and power to score
knockouts, so the decision is from counting blows.  There are plenty of
split decisions in the feathers, and the judges have way different scores
from each other.  Consequently, they intentionally slow down the feathers a
bit by making them use the same weight gloves as the heavies.  

If you have ever seen two small guys mix it up bare fisted, especially if
they are sober, you will see some real speed.

spike 




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 18:00:06 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:00:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Born to Run? Little Ones Get Test for Sports Gene
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30811301422r2bc41d5fv988d4a6bf754e3e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29666bf30811301422r2bc41d5fv988d4a6bf754e3e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812011000k3aeb19e4kd7ef636765c3feed@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:22 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> Regarding the below test, even if the gene analysis is true, it's a
> scam IMHO.

...

>   That a gene backs up their ability
> is like saying I should check if my daughter has a gene for blue eyes
> when I can see her eyes are blue.
>

I do not really see your point. One may have a genetically-influenced
somewhat-weak immune system. Yet he or she may never get any actual cold
during their entire life. Wouldn't it nevertheless interesting to know?

The "absolute" musical ear appears to be a feature controlled by a single
gene (and requiring anyway an intensive and early training to develop). Does
it mean that if I am lucky enough to have it I am more likely to become a
musician? Why would that be the case? And if this is not the case, as it
obviously is not, would that make me less interested in knowing that I have
(or had) the genetic potential to develop it?

Stefano Vaj
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 06:03:21 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:03:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Film: "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button"
Message-ID: <2d6187670812012203m69f7b247x75293870f7680765@mail.gmail.com>

"I was thinking how nothing lasts and what a shame that is"  Benjamin Button

I'm greatly looking forward to watching "The Curious Case of Benjamin
Button."  A man is born old and grows younger as the years go by.  It
is a bittersweet modern-day fairy tale and seems to have an
anti-aging/death slant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curious_Case_of_Benjamin_Button

http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/thecuriouscaseofbenjaminbutton/

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/film/reviews/article_display.jsp?rid=11986

http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117939098.html?categoryid=2880&cs=1

John  : )


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Tue Dec  2 06:47:04 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:47:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Film: "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812012203m69f7b247x75293870f7680765@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670812012203m69f7b247x75293870f7680765@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E433A2406CB456ABE8720AE4DADCA93@GinaSony>

I know! I really want to see that movie too! When I first saw the preview I thought of Mearth from Mork and Mindy. Remember him, he was their half human half alien baby and aged in reverse (because that's how they are on Ork!). Played by Jonathan winters, so funny. Of course Benjamin Button has a more serious spin and looks very interesting. I like when things are really turned around in a story and we get to imagine what it would be like. 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Grigg 
  To: ExI chat list ; World Transhumanist Association Discussion List 
  Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:03 PM
  Subject: [ExI] Film: "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button"


  "I was thinking how nothing lasts and what a shame that is"  Benjamin Button

  I'm greatly looking forward to watching "The Curious Case of Benjamin
  Button."  A man is born old and grows younger as the years go by.  It
  is a bittersweet modern-day fairy tale and seems to have an
  anti-aging/death slant.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curious_Case_of_Benjamin_Button

  http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/thecuriouscaseofbenjaminbutton/

  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/film/reviews/article_display.jsp?rid=11986

  http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117939098.html?categoryid=2880&cs=1

  John  : )
  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From estropico at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 14:13:35 2008
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:13:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia's December event
Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90812020613n73728b35qf17c7776ed77540@mail.gmail.com>

Transhumanims: Arguably the world's most important idea in the coming ten
years?

The next ExtroBritannia event is scheduled for Saturday December the 13th
2008; 2:00pm - 4:00pm. Venue: Room 539, 5th floor (via main lift), Main
Building, Birkbeck College, Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX
(map<http://www.bbk.ac.uk/maps>).
The event is free and everyone's welcome.

What is the idea that most deserves support and publicity, over (say) the
next ten years, in order to best allow individuals and societies to avoid
nightmare scenarios and to achieve optimal outcomes? Various people might
pick ideas such as democracy, free-market economics, rationalism, the
"precautionary principle", sustainable living, globalisation,
anti-globalisation, carbon emission trading, open source, and web 2.0.

Instead, this meeting will examine the case in favour of transhumanism.
Transhumanism is more than a fondness for technology, and a willingness to
endorse the thoughtful application of technology within society.
Transhumanism is also a view about what it means to be human, and an
affirmation of radical evolution. It is no wonder that some elements of
society find transhumanism to be threatening.

The meeting will also look at some current major risks faced by society:
religion-inspired terrorism, the global economic crisis, the potential for
rapid discontinuous climate change, and threats to existing social norms
caused by rapidly improving technology. Is transhumanism relevant to these
larger matters, or is it in some ways a kind of distraction ? "opium for the
geeks"?

The discussion will be led by David Wood <http://www.dw2-0.com/>. The intent
is to provoke a stimulating and deeply illuminating debate ? and ideally to
reach some views about "what next?"

If you're interested in ideas such as the Technological Singularity, Life
Extension, Radical Evolution, Intelligence Augmentation, Nano-scale
Engineering, or Geo-scale Engineering, but are unsure how credible and
relevant these ideas are, you will probably find this discussion rewarding!

The meeting is organised by the UKTA (Extrobritannia), the United Kingdom
Transhumanist Association. There is no charge to attend and everyone is
welcome.

Why not join some of the UKTA regulars for a light lunch beforehand, any
time after 12.30pm, in The Marlborough Arms, 36 Torrington Place, London
WC1E 7HJ.
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec  2 14:27:16 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:27:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Film: "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button"
In-Reply-To: <5E433A2406CB456ABE8720AE4DADCA93@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <200812021454.mB2Es88K001415@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 


________________________________

On Behalf Of Gina Miller
	Subject: Re: [ExI] Film: "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button"
	
	
...When I first saw the preview I thought of Mearth from Mork and Mindy.
Remember him, he was their half human half alien baby and aged in reverse
(because that's how they are on Ork!). Played by Jonathan winters, so funny.
...Gina "Nanogirl" Miller


Of all the comedy from the 70s, the Mork and Mindy show after they added
Jonathan Winters takes the prize.  It's over 30 years ago, but the comedy
aged well.  Those shows are wet-your-diapers funny, seeing Winters and a
young pre-cocaine Robin Williams bounce off of each other.  Most of the
scripts are ad-lib, which explains why costar Pam Dawber doesn't seem to
know what to do.  She pretty much just watches those two in amazement while
struggling to not fall on the floor laughing at the silliness.  Do try to
find tapes or reruns.

spike







From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 21:08:07 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:08:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Behavioral screening -- the future of airport security?
Message-ID: <2d6187670812021308scb64ac4m40b8e984fff74841@mail.gmail.com>

I'm curious to know what opinions are here regarding these new
technologies and how they are going to be employed?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/12/02/airport.security/index.html

 TEL AVIV, Israel (CNN) -- Keep your shoes and belts on: Waiting in
long airport security lines to pass through metal detectors may soon
be a thing of the past.
Behavioral screening could supplement, or even replace, walk-through
metal detectors.

Airport security checkpoints may become opportunities for screeners to
study passengers' intentions.

Security experts say focus is shifting from analyzing the content of
carry-ons to analyzing the content of passengers' intentions and
emotions.

"We are seeing a needed paradigm shift when it comes to security,"
says Omer Laviv, CEO of ATHENA GS3, an Israeli-based security company.

"This 'brain-fingerprinting,' or technology which checks for
behavioral intent, is much more developed than we think."

Nowhere is the need for cutting-edge security more acute than Israel,
which faces constant security threats. For this reason, Israel has
become a leader in developing security technology.

Several Israeli-based technology companies are developing detection
systems that pick up signs of emotional strain, a psychological red
flag that a passenger may intend to commit an act of terror. Speedier
and less intrusive than metal detectors, these systems may eventually
restore some efficiency to the airplane boarding process.

One firm, WeCU (pronounced "We See You") Technologies, employs a
combination of infra-red technology, remote sensors and imagers, and
flashing of subliminal images, such as a photo of Osama bin Laden.
Developers say the combination of these technologies can detect a
person's reaction to certain stimuli by reading body temperature,
heart rate and respiration, signals a terrorist unwittingly emits
before he plans to commit an attack.
Don't Miss

    * TSA boosts 'behavior detection,' mulls changes
    * Family lines help speed up airport security checkpoints

With these technologies, the emphasis is on speed and seamlessness.
Ehud Givon, CEO of WeCU, envisions a day when a passenger can breeze
through a security checkpoint in 20 to 30 seconds.

Although traditional security profiling can discriminate by race and
religion, security experts say behavioral profiling is more fair, more
effective and less expensive.

WeCU has received grants from the Transportation Security
Administration within the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, which
hopes to implement a system to pinpoint internal threats such as
airline employees intending terrorist acts.

Once these technologies are in place, a passenger may pass through a
security screening without realizing it. For example, passengers could
use an automated check-in system or gaze at a screen with departures
information without realizing they've just been exposed to the words
"Islamic jihad" written in Arabic.

These stimuli, explains Givon, will intrinsically elicit some sort of
biometric response -- whether the passenger knows it or not -- that
can be picked up by WeCU's strategically placed sensors.

"I believe that we introduce a new layer in security," Givon says.
"This is something that couldn't be done in the past: finding the
connection between a certain individual and the intent to harm."

The Orwellian-sounding startup has gone further to develop a system
that detects a passenger's behavioral intentions by scanning their
every step, literally. While walking around certain parts of the
airport terminal, a passenger may not realize he has stepped on a
"smart carpet" filled with hidden biometric sensors.

The technology is still under development, says Givon, who believes it
will be strong enough to pick up biometric information from a
footstep. If a passenger is wearing heavy hiking boots, for example,
WeCU will rely on biometric sensors combined with video and thermal
biometric imaging to detect malicious intent.

Another option from WeCU is a "smart seat," or cushion full of hidden
biometric sensors that could provide a more detailed read on someone
sitting in an airport waiting area, Givon says.

While the technology sound like something from a James Bond flick or
even "A Clockwork Orange," Givon insists that passengers will not find
the techniques intrusive. "We don't want you to feel that you are
being interrogated," he says.

Givon is negotiating contracts with airports worldwide and believes
his company's technology may be implemented as soon as 2010.

Nemesysco, another Israeli-based technology company, believes the key
to a person's emotions and intentions lies in their voice. The
company's patented LVA, or Layered Voice Analysis, technology can pick
up verbal cues from a passenger who may pose a threat.

Unlike a polygraph test, which checks for lies, Nemesysco's systems
work as an "emotion detector," says Nemesysco CEO Amir Liberman. In
other words, it's not what passengers say, but how they say it.

Nemesysco's devices use a series of patented signal-processing
algorithms that can differentiate between a "normal" voice and
a"'stressed" voice. If emotional stress is detected, officials can
determine if the passenger should be taken aside for further
questioning.

The system works on the premise that all voices have a certain
frequency, and any deviation of that baseline frequency can indicate
stress.

Liberman says it takes approximately five to 10 seconds for their
system to capture a "normal" voice in casual conversation, which
establishes a baseline. Their system then measures changes from the
baseline voice that signify an increase in stress, excitement,
anticipation, hesitation or other emotions that can indicate a
potential terrorism threat.

A computer processes the voice patterns and then flashes words such as
"high risk," "medium risk," "excited" and "highly stressed." Through
his system, Liberman says, he "can see what's going on in your brain."

Versions of Nemesysco's system already have been successfully tested
at Moscow Domodedovo International Airport, where officials used it to
target criminals and drug traffickers. A version was recently
implemented at another major international airport which Liberman
declined to identify.

Layered Voice Analysis also has been used to test for insurance fraud
and on the TV program "Big Brother Australia."

Layered Voice Analysis has limitations, including the inability to
trace the vocal patterns of a person with a speech impediment. But the
system is more effective than current security measures, claims
Liberman, who believes a terrorist currently can pass through airport
security with explosive material "that can take down any plane."

In fact, many experts express little confidence in the current state
of airport security.

Philip Baum, London-based editor of Aviation Security International
magazine, says would-be terrorists could easily slip through security
checkpoints, even with new regulations that check for liquids.

"The archaic system of an X-ray machine and metal detector cannot pick
up other potential threats posed by passengers," Baum says. "I can
have a ceramic weapon or chemical weapons and walk through an archway
metal detector and it won't be picked up. Yet we have huge faith in
these metal detectors that can only pick up one substance."

Laviv, whose consulting firm focuses on securing mass transportation
systems, is equally skeptical.

"It is possible today to hijack an aircraft using only five or six
able-bodied passengers who are well-trained in Kung Fu fighting," he
says. "There is no technology in place in airports to detect a threat
like that.

"The question is, should our desire be to look for each and every
threat agent, rather than focus our efforts on identifying the
[violent] intention of the passenger?"


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 21:33:18 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:33:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Second Life affair ends in divorce
Message-ID: <2d6187670812021333m69f100fbuf013a1b8a2e86225@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if this was discussed here but in case it was not I
thought I'd post.  I find it ironic that the hurt (then) wife went on
to find love again in the World of Warcraft.  I wish the article had
ended by saying, "she regained her faith in romance upon meeting a
60th level elven ranger!  And then the next CNN article about her
could be about "interracial relationships" between online humans and
elves and how his elven relatives just won't approve of her unless she
changes her race...

John  : )

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/14/second.life.divorce/index.html

 LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British couple who married in a lavish
Second Life wedding ceremony are to divorce after one of them had an
alleged "affair" in the online world.
Second Life users can interact and form relationships with other
players' avatars.

Second Life users can interact and form relationships with other
players' avatars.

Amy Taylor, 28, said she had caught husband David Pollard, 40, having
sex with an animated woman. The couple, who met in an Internet
chatroom in 2003, are now separated.

"I went mad -- I was so hurt. I just couldn't believe what he'd done,"
Taylor told the Western Morning News. "It may have started online, but
it existed entirely in the real world and it hurts just as much now it
is over."

Second Life allows users to create alter egos known as "avatars" and
interact with other players, forming relationships, holding down jobs
and trading products and services for a virtual currency convertible
into real life dollars. iReport.com: Share your stories from Second
Life

Taylor said she had caught Pollard's avatar having sex with a virtual
prostitute: "I looked at the computer screen and could see his
character having sex with a female character. It's cheating as far as
I'm concerned."
Don't Miss

    * Woman arrested for killing virtual reality husband
    * Avatars in rehab: Getting therapy in virtual worlds

The couple's real-life wedding in 2005 was eclipsed by a fairy tale
ceremony held within Second Life.

But Taylor told the Western Morning News she had subsequently hired an
online private detective to track his activities: "He never did
anything in real life, but I had my suspicions about what he was doing
in Second Life." iReport.com: Anger in a virtual world

Pollard admitted having an online relationship with a "girl in
America" but denied wrongdoing. "We weren't even having cyber sex or
anything like that, we were just chatting and hanging out together,"
he told the Western Morning News.

Taylor is now in a new relationship with a man she met in the online
roleplaying game World of Warcraft.


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 22:06:02 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:06:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Second Life affair ends in divorce
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812021333m69f100fbuf013a1b8a2e86225@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670812021333m69f100fbuf013a1b8a2e86225@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812021406r1e225956vb823a6d5299b7a44@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 9:33 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> I'm not sure if this was discussed here but in case it was not I
> thought I'd post.  I find it ironic that the hurt (then) wife went on
> to find love again in the World of Warcraft.  I wish the article had
> ended by saying, "she regained her faith in romance upon meeting a
> 60th level elven ranger!  And then the next CNN article about her
> could be about "interracial relationships" between online humans and
> elves and how his elven relatives just won't approve of her unless she
> changes her race...
>
> John  : )
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/14/second.life.divorce/index.html
>
>  LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British couple who married in a lavish
> Second Life wedding ceremony are to divorce after one of them had an
> alleged "affair" in the online world.



Britain has been having a good laugh at these two unfortunates. TV
comedians have been making jokes about them and Second Life.

But in the 'real' world it is a sad case of two unemployed, obese,
unappealing down-and-outs making a fantasy world where they were
young, slim, attractive, etc.

See this article for photos:
<http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Second_Life_sex_causes_divorce&in_article_id=402338>

Not so much getting a Second Life, as they need to get a first life.

BillK


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Dec  3 02:04:12 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:04:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear (Future Schlock)
Message-ID: <200812030230.mB32Ut4o002157@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Future Schlock

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200812/disney



Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 03:19:00 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:19:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear (Future Schlock)
In-Reply-To: <200812030230.mB32Ut4o002157@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200812030230.mB32Ut4o002157@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30812021919j65a8e40bn51be3905d690372c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> Future Schlock
> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200812/disney

Thanks, Max, for the article!  PJ O'Rourke is always a good laugh.

Disneyland's House of the Future is one of my favorite residential
structures ever.  Right up there in my book with Fallingwater and Sir
John Soane's home in London.  I went to Disneyland for the first time
the year after it was demolished, but when I met my husband, an
50s-60s Disneyland aficionado, he showed me the photos and plans.  I
was hooked.  Check out these photos:
http://www.davelandweb.com/hof/

Ever since, I've dreamed of building my own -- if I could build an
ecosustainable version.  Last year, Art Center in Pasadena held a show
on future architecture and they built a small HoF model.  Like a
dollhouse, you could look in the tiny windows at its proportions.
Fabulous.  <sigh>  Even more interesting was how well the design held
up to more modern examples.

I'm not surprised in the slightest at the latest attempt by Disney's
lack-of-imagineers.  If Congress didn't keep rolling back copyright to
make sure Mickey Mouse's ass was always covered, and if John Lassiter
didn't deign to merge Pixar to take over Disney animation, they'd have
nothing worthwhile design-wise right now.  What a waste of a legacy.
Walt is rolling in his grave (and no, he's not a cryo-popsicle).

PJ


From scerir at libero.it  Wed Dec  3 09:38:01 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:38:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  undecidability  <=> randomness ?
References: <4eaaa0d90812020613n73728b35qf17c7776ed77540@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c9552a$d6532390$9a0a4797@archimede>

Anton Zeilinger et al. published
an interesting paper about
randomness and undecidability.

Mathematical undecidability and quantum randomness
http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4542
Abstract: We propose a new link between mathematical undecidability and
quantum physics. We demonstrate that the states of elementary quantum
systems are capable of encoding mathematical axioms and show that quantum
measurements are capable of revealing whether a given proposition is
decidable or not within the axiomatic system. Whenever a mathematical
proposition is undecidable within the axioms encoded in the state, the
measurement associated with the proposition gives random outcomes. Our
results support the view that quantum randomness is irreducible and a
manifestation of mathematical undecidability.

On the same subject see also
P.C.W.Davies here
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703041

and C.Calude et al. here
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0402197
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0611029
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0111118
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9412004
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0304128




From scerir at libero.it  Wed Dec  3 13:08:03 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:08:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI]   Dyson Spheres search
References: <4eaaa0d90812020613n73728b35qf17c7776ed77540@mail.gmail.com>
	<001801c9552a$d6532390$9a0a4797@archimede>
Message-ID: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede>

An interesting page on Cosmic Variance
about the search of Dyson Spheres

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/12/02/no-dyson-spheres-found-yet/




From mlatorra at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 16:13:22 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:13:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear (Future Schlock)
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30812021919j65a8e40bn51be3905d690372c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200812030230.mB32Ut4o002157@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<29666bf30812021919j65a8e40bn51be3905d690372c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550812030813v8117249g864cbfacfab2038c@mail.gmail.com>

Ahh, the "old" Disney House of the Future! Now that's the good old future as
it used to be!

I visited Disneyland for the first time at age 10 in 1963. There, and a
couple of years later at the New York World's Fair, I was enthralled by
visions of a bright, optimistic, future-that-works.

Where did that vision go?

It seems to be dead everywhere but here, amongst Extrope-Transhumanist types
who refuse to let the good ideas die from neglect, and who push relentlessly
for even newer and better ideas to bring to life.

The future isn't dead--it's only sleeping. Let's wake it up!

Regards,
Mike LaTorra

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:19 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:04 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> > Future Schlock
> > http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200812/disney
>
> Thanks, Max, for the article!  PJ O'Rourke is always a good laugh.
>
> Disneyland's House of the Future is one of my favorite residential
> structures ever.  Right up there in my book with Fallingwater and Sir
> John Soane's home in London.  I went to Disneyland for the first time
> the year after it was demolished, but when I met my husband, an
> 50s-60s Disneyland aficionado, he showed me the photos and plans.  I
> was hooked.  Check out these photos:
> http://www.davelandweb.com/hof/
>
> Ever since, I've dreamed of building my own -- if I could build an
> ecosustainable version.  Last year, Art Center in Pasadena held a show
> on future architecture and they built a small HoF model.  Like a
> dollhouse, you could look in the tiny windows at its proportions.
> Fabulous.  <sigh>  Even more interesting was how well the design held
> up to more modern examples.
>
> I'm not surprised in the slightest at the latest attempt by Disney's
> lack-of-imagineers.  If Congress didn't keep rolling back copyright to
> make sure Mickey Mouse's ass was always covered, and if John Lassiter
> didn't deign to merge Pixar to take over Disney animation, they'd have
> nothing worthwhile design-wise right now.  What a waste of a legacy.
> Walt is rolling in his grave (and no, he's not a cryo-popsicle).
>
> PJ
>  _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec  4 05:21:34 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:21:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] phones charged by absorbing sound
In-Reply-To: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 
Seems to me something is wrong with this notion, but if not it is rad cool:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081201162127.htm

spike



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 06:28:18 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 00:28:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] phones charged by absorbing sound
In-Reply-To: <200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede>
	<200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081204002556.02436c30@satx.rr.com>

At 09:21 PM 12/3/2008 -0800, Spike wrote:
>
>Seems to me something is wrong with this notion

Well,

< We have demonstrated that when you go to a 
particular length scale ? between 20 and 23 
nanometers ? you actually improve the 
energy-harvesting capacity by 100 percent. >

just doubles what you started with... Which is what? Something modest?

Damien Broderick



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec  4 20:28:16 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:28:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Making a billion people smarter on the cheap.
References: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede><200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081204002556.02436c30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>

Nicholas D. Kristof proposed a way to raise the IQ of one BILLION people 
between 10 and 15 points and do so at the cost of 2 cents per person per 
year! It's not very flashy but I think his method just might work.

 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/opinion/04kristof.html?_r=1&em

  John K Clark




From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 00:24:45 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:24:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear (Future Schlock)
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30812021919j65a8e40bn51be3905d690372c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200812030230.mB32Ut4o002157@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<29666bf30812021919j65a8e40bn51be3905d690372c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240812041624o4ccbbe1ah2722754046abf356@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:19 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
> didn't deign to merge Pixar to take over Disney animation, they'd have
> nothing worthwhile design-wise right now.  What a waste of a legacy.
> Walt is rolling in his grave (and no, he's not a cryo-popsicle).

Wait, what?  I thought that's what people were going to look at when
they went to see "Disney on Ice"  :)


From sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  4 22:06:59 2008
From: sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com (Belva Plain)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:06:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Making a billion people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>
References: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede><200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081204002556.02436c30@satx.rr.com> 
	<0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <BLU137-W45BCA7D14ADCB62A3ABEE6CF020@phx.gbl>



I'm not sure that he's arguing that a billion people have clinical iodine deficiency;
but iodizing salt sounds like a good way to go for people whose diets include salt. 
I wonder whether using iodine to clean up water might also be a good way to introduce
more iodine into people's diets (not a chemist, so I have no idea if this is right)?

Tom D

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 11:03:51 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:03:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Making a billion people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <BLU137-W45BCA7D14ADCB62A3ABEE6CF020@phx.gbl>
References: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede>
	<200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081204002556.02436c30@satx.rr.com>
	<0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>
	<BLU137-W45BCA7D14ADCB62A3ABEE6CF020@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <580930c20812050303r27cc2f7aic37f636999500b62@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Belva Plain <sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> but iodizing salt sounds like a good way to go for people whose diets
> include salt.

Marginal point, I remember to have been surprised once that "salt" as
in "salt and pepper" is both the most ancient and widespread drug in
human history.

While it does not have any psycholectic effect to speak of, its
addition to food and some beverages does not correspond to any actual
physiological requirement, and yet its use extends across all human
cultures and history (and beyond: see the chimp "technology" of
washing potatoes in sea water).

Stefano Vaj


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 17:01:15 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:01:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] amazing volcanic eruption photos
Message-ID: <9ff585550812050901r475c787csd67bcf5cabac8fd7@mail.gmail.com>

Several volcanoes are included in this series of photos from the UPI news
service. The most striking are from Chaiten, Chile, last May, where dramatic
lightning accompanies the eruption plume.

http://www.upi.com/topic/Volcanoes/7/

Regards,
Mike LaTorra
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From melancholyaeon at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 16:03:33 2008
From: melancholyaeon at gmail.com (melancholy aeon)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:03:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Making a billion people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812050303r27cc2f7aic37f636999500b62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede>
	<200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081204002556.02436c30@satx.rr.com>
	<0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>
	<BLU137-W45BCA7D14ADCB62A3ABEE6CF020@phx.gbl>
	<580930c20812050303r27cc2f7aic37f636999500b62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5870100a0812050803r19d64ab6l74283802d80634a6@mail.gmail.com>

I saw one study that estimated the worth of each IQ point in productivity to
be US$14.5K. Spending the tiny sum to ensure all people have iodized salt
would add
*$1.45 ? 1013*wow! to the globe's economic pie. Clearly it is one of the
best and easiest things to do to aid humanity overall.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:03 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Belva Plain <sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > but iodizing salt sounds like a good way to go for people whose diets
> > include salt.
>
> Marginal point, I remember to have been surprised once that "salt" as
> in "salt and pepper" is both the most ancient and widespread drug in
> human history.
>
> While it does not have any psycholectic effect to speak of, its
> addition to food and some beverages does not correspond to any actual
> physiological requirement, and yet its use extends across all human
> cultures and history (and beyond: see the chimp "technology" of
> washing potatoes in sea water).
>
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Dec  6 16:18:50 2008
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:18:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ExI] Making a billion people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <5870100a0812050803r19d64ab6l74283802d80634a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede>
	<200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081204002556.02436c30@satx.rr.com>
	<0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>
	<BLU137-W45BCA7D14ADCB62A3ABEE6CF020@phx.gbl>
	<580930c20812050303r27cc2f7aic37f636999500b62@mail.gmail.com>
	<5870100a0812050803r19d64ab6l74283802d80634a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51934.12.77.169.20.1228580330.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Iodine is not risk free for some people in some situations, so to have it pretty
much unavoidable would be questionable, IMHO.

http://www.diiradiology.com/radiology.aspx?id=198

| Patient Preparation
|
| Do not eat seafood or other products containing iodine, such as
| iodized salt and multivitamins, for at least 2 weeks prior to the
| thyroid scan.  If you are taking other medications, check with your
| pharmacist to determine if they contain iodine.

Iodized salt is readily available everywhere I've lived in the USA, no more
expensive than regular table salt, but some folks who won't use it. They see it as a
"poison" like they see fluoride in water as a poison or evil plot.

Regards,
MB





From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  6 16:27:02 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:27:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Making a billion people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <51934.12.77.169.20.1228580330.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <200812061627.mB6GR7Vu005537@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

>... On Behalf Of MB

> 
> Iodized salt is readily available everywhere I've lived in 
> the USA, no more expensive than regular table salt, but some 
> folks who won't use it. They see it as a "poison" like they 
> see fluoride in water as a poison or evil plot.
> 
> Regards,
> MB


This problem would be multiplied a hundred times over were we to try to
supply iodized salt to the undeveloped nations, which are turning more
Muslim.  Any well meaning gesture would be met with suspicion, coming from
the unbelievers.  A rumor could easily spread contending that the kaffir
salt reduces fertility for instance.  They would assume an evil plot, and
begin planning bloody revenge.

I see this as a huge challenge for the 21st century.

spike







From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 17:56:53 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 11:56:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>
References: <000701c95548$2d94c2e0$ade61e97@archimede>
	<200812040548.mB45mPxo012535@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081204002556.02436c30@satx.rr.com>
	<0FD1D7B0B97540158E88D390926C1889@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081206114416.0226f2f0@satx.rr.com>

At 03:28 PM 12/4/2008 -0500, JKC wrote:

>Nicholas D. Kristof proposed a way to raise the IQ of one BILLION 
>people between 10 and 15 points and do so at the cost of 2 cents per 
>person per year! ...
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/opinion/04kristof.html?_r=1&em

Not quite. What Kristof wrote was:

"When a pregnant woman doesn't have enough iodine in her body, her 
child may suffer irreversible brain damage and could have an I.Q. 
that is 10 to 15 points lower than it would otherwise be. An educated 
guess is that iodine deficiency results in a needless loss of more 
than 1 billion I.Q. points around the world."

So he's not suggesting that some one billion humans are 1 point 
lower, but that on average some 100 million, or fewer, are 10 points 
or more lower. Hence his horrifying anecdotal description:

"Occasionally in my travels I've been unnerved by coming across 
entire villages, in western China and elsewhere, eerily full of 
people with mental and physical handicaps, staggering about, unable 
to speak coherently." That's a *huge* deficit, and clearly there are 
many contributory causes.

Still, even 50 million somewhat brain-damaged people is a staggering 
and dreadful needless waste of potential. Yes, there'll be rumors 
that adding iodine to the salt or other foods is an Evil Crusader 
Plot, but not if the leaders of such nations and faiths can be 
persuaded to speak up in favor of doing so. It might suit some of 
them to stupidize their populations, but that's not a foregone conclusion.

Damien Broderick 



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  6 19:21:14 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:21:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081206114416.0226f2f0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick

> >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/opinion/04kristof.html?_r=1&em
> 
> ...What Kristof wrote was:
> 
> "When a pregnant woman doesn't have enough iodine in her 
> body, her child may suffer irreversible brain damage and 
> could have an I.Q. that is 10 to 15 points lower...

> Still, even 50 million somewhat brain-damaged people is a 
> staggering and dreadful needless waste of potential. Yes, 
> there'll be rumors that adding iodine to the salt or other 
> foods is an Evil Crusader Plot, but not if the leaders of 
> such nations and faiths can be persuaded to speak up in favor 
> of doing so. It might suit some of them to stupidize their 
> populations, but that's not a foregone conclusion.
> 
> Damien Broderick 



Ja, I fully agree.  My notion is that if the leaders of the nations of
iodine-starved people had any intentions of solving this problem, they could
easily do so.  The solution is cheap even by their modest standards.  The
fact that they have done nothing suggests a specific intention to allow the
problem to continue, perhaps out of malice, perhaps out of criminal apathy,
perhaps a mistaken belief that iodine deficiency will somehow reduce
population growth, or the notion that brain damaged people are easier to
control, easier to keep down on the farm away from the crowded cities.  Even
the poorest governments in the world could supply iodized salt to its
neediest citizens for less than the cost of maintaining a wing of their
presidential palaces.

They could solve it, but they don't.  What (if anything) do we do now coach?

spike




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 20:17:27 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 14:17:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081206114416.0226f2f0@satx.rr.com>
	<200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081206141352.026eb8a0@satx.rr.com>

At 11:21 AM 12/6/2008 -0800, spike wrote:

>The
>fact that they have done nothing suggests a specific intention to allow the
>problem to continue, perhaps out of malice, perhaps out of criminal apathy,
>perhaps a mistaken belief that iodine deficiency will somehow reduce
>population growth, or the notion that brain damaged people are easier to
>control, easier to keep down on the farm away from the crowded cities.

But note what the article sez:

<Until recently, 6 in 10 Pakistani schoolchildren were 
iodine-deficient. Iodine just wasn't on anyone's mind.

"I had never heard of iodized salt," said Haji Sajjawal Khan, a 
65-year-old owner of a small salt factory here, near the capital of 
Islamabad. Officials from the Micronutrient Initiative and other aid 
agencies reached out to factory owners like Mr. Khan and encouraged 
them to iodize salt, in part to help make Pakistanis healthier and 
more intelligent.

"It will prevent people's necks from being swollen and will make 
people smarter," Mr. Khan said. So he agreed to add an iodine drip 
into his salt grinder.>

It's hard to recall how *ignorant* people can be, especially for us 
with our 24 hour links to google and new-fangled way of always 
questioning traditional ways. In this case, just *informing* that guy 
seems to have done the trick.

Damien Broderick





From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  6 20:23:13 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:23:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081206141352.026eb8a0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200812062023.mB6KNIcs003667@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick

>> ...So he agreed to add an iodine drip into his salt grinder...
> 
> It's hard to recall how *ignorant* people can be, especially 
> for us with our 24 hour links to google and new-fangled way 
> of always questioning traditional ways. In this case, just 
> *informing* that guy seems to have done the trick.
> 
> Damien Broderick


Cool thanks Damien.  May all the world's problems be so easily solved by
just the dissemination of information.

spike




  



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  6 19:57:41 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:57:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
Message-ID: <200812062024.mB6KOPhY019610@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

> 
> ...My notion is that if the leaders of the 
> nations of iodine-starved people had any intentions of 
> solving this problem, they could easily do so.  The solution 
> is cheap even by their modest standards... spike
> 

I may need to rethink my earlier comment.  A shaker of iodized salt in some
African countries may cost several million dollars:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5032826.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508840/Zimbabwe-bank-issues-10millio
n--wont-buy-hamburger-Harare.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/12/06/zimbabwe.currency/


For those who believe that governments can print their way out of trouble,
Zimbabwe is the poster child for what happens when they try it.

spike







From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Sat Dec  6 20:32:34 2008
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 13:32:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>

spike wrote:
> What (if anything) do we do now coach?
>
>   

Of course you or I, as individuals, sending a letter to third world 
country leaders would likely do nothing.  But wouldn't something like a 
dynamic always improving petition that goes viral and is signed by 
millions of people showing gross comprehensive agreement by everyone on 
the importance of such critical actionable issues (including any other 
points of view, and quantitative measures of consensus of such, if any) 
have a chance of changing the world for the better?

I think 99% of the easily resolvable problems in this world could be 
addressed if we simply had a better ability for large groups of people 
(i.e. everyone) to efficiently communicate concisely and quantitatively 
as a group - to the few people in charge.

http://canonizer.com

Brent Allsop




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Dec  6 21:18:48 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 14:18:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>
References: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1228598658_16853@s7.cableone.net>

At 01:32 PM 12/6/2008, Brent Allsop wrote:

snip

>I think 99% of the easily resolvable problems in this world could be 
>addressed if we simply had a better ability for large groups of 
>people (i.e. everyone) to efficiently communicate concisely and 
>quantitatively as a group - to the few people in charge.
>
>http://canonizer.com

That's less than easy.  Assume I have a reasonable cost solution to 
the energy crisis (and in fact I think I do and many of your are aware of it).

I have no idea of how to get this proposal into the hands of anyone 
who could so anything with it.

What do you suggest?

Better yet, implement your suggestion.

I will help you any way I can.

Keith Henson

PS not interested in credit. 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 22:24:06 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:24:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
Message-ID: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>

MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag

Chance of success at French megaproject enhanced

By Lewis Page<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/12/05/mit_fusion_boffins_iter_tech/>?
Get
more from this author <http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Lewis%20Page>

Posted in Environment <http://www.theregister.co.uk/science/environment/>,
5th December 2008 11:13 GMT

Boffins at MIT say they have cracked some tricky problems in the design of
power stations running on nuclear fusion, though they hasten to add that
many more hurdles remain before fusion energy becomes a reality.

"There's been a lot of progress," says Earl Marmar, head of the Alcator
Project at the MIT Plasma Science and Fusion Center (PSFC).

"We're learning a lot more about the details of how these things work."

The Alcator project has its own reactor, and physicists there have been
working on several conundrums which have to be solved before the new
super-sized international reactor in France (ITER) can even be completed.

In particular, the MIT brains say they have worked out a new and better
method for making the unbelievably hot plasma inside the doughnut shaped
reactor move around. It has to do that, apparently, in order not to lose all
its heat into the vessel walls.

It seems that Yijun Lin and John Rice of MIT have found a way of making the
plasma move about by pushing it with radio waves, which will be critical to
the operation of the ITER.

"That's very important," Marmar says. "People have been trying to do this
for decades."

No plasma circulation "is potentially a showstopper" for ITER, according to
Rice. However nobody is exactly sure why the MIT radio-push methods work.

"Some of these results are surprising to theorists," says Lin.

The Alcator team are also proud to announce their development of a cunning
noble-gas extinguisher method for quenching troublesome beams of "runaway
electrons", which can apparently be an issue in the event of a fusion
reactor's magnetic containment fields having a collywobble.

Lin thinks that incorporation of the MIT technology will give the enormous,
multibillion-pound ITER a much greater chance of success. "Our results are
just in time," he says, as the mighty machine is already half built.

That's obviously very important, because if practical fusion reactors can be
developed which put out more power than they need to run, the human race's
energy problems are largely over. Unlike the scarce and expensive uranium
required for present-day fission reactors, the hydrogen isotopes which would
be used for fusion are commonplace and could readily be extracted from
seawater.

Clean and abundant fusion electricity, quite apart from rendering the
wind/coal/fission power-station debate irrelevant, would also solve the
underlying problems of replacing fossil-fuelled transport. No matter whether
you favour hydrogen or battery or synthi-petrol made from CO2, very large
amounts of energy have to be used.

Indeed, most of the world's troubles actually boil down to energy in the
end. Farms in the Third World could easily feed the world's hungry if they
had energy-intensive fertilisers and powered machinery: starvation is
essentially an energy problem. Water is energy, too - there's no need to
worry about how much you use if you can make more out of seawater.

So we should all be hoping that ITER is a success, and cheering on fusion
researchers like the MIT Alcator team. (R)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/mit_fusion_boffins_iter_tech/




-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec  6 23:09:20 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:09:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>
References: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812061509u66bc6255h2cf45d666a98b1a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
> Of course you or I, as individuals, sending a letter to third world country
> leaders would likely do nothing.  But wouldn't something like a dynamic
> always improving petition that goes viral and is signed by millions of
> people showing gross comprehensive agreement by everyone on the importance
> of such critical actionable issues (including any other points of view, and
> quantitative measures of consensus of such, if any) have a chance of
> changing the world for the better?
>


I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding in this discussion.

Iodine deficiency is a well-known problem that the World Health
Organization, UNICEF and others have been working on since 1990. And
they have made great improvements, although more still needs to be
done.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine_deficiency>

UNICEF published a progress report in 2007.
<http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/Sustainable_Elimination_of_Iodine_Deficiency.pdf>
Quote:
A worldwide effort has dramatically raised the proportion of people
consuming iodized salt from less than 20 per cent in 1990 to about 70
per cent by 2000. Thirty-four countries have achieved the elimination
of iodine deficiency through universal salt iodization.  By 2006, more
than 120 countries were implementing salt iodization programmes, an
increase of one third in just six years compared to the 90 countries
with such programmes in 2000.
--------------


Of the remaining problem countries many are involved in conflict
situations and have difficulty implementing *any* public health
measures. But the effort is continuing.


BillK


From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Sat Dec  6 23:59:52 2008
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 16:59:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0812061509u66bc6255h2cf45d666a98b1a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>
	<ee50357e0812061509u66bc6255h2cf45d666a98b1a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493B11F8.9090300@comcast.net>



BillK,

Wow, that was very educational.  Thanks.  This is the greatest part of 
participating in such an educated group.

Of course any such http://canonizer.com effort would seek to link up 
with all such efforts and work together with any and all interested in 
pushing such efforts forward and a very dynamic and ever progressing 
leaderless networked way.  That wikipedia article indicated that 
'comunication' was a big part of the problem.  A topic that went viral 
on a world wide bases and so encouraged everyone to get involved at 
least enough to 'sign' and forward, could be a big place where 
canonizer.com would be a big way we could contribute to the effort.

In addition, as with any such world wide multi country efforts, there is 
going to be different POV on what is most important to do next, where, 
the reasons for such, and so on.  http://canonizer.com would seek to 
concisely state the diversity of beliefs about such plans and needs, and 
concisely measure the consensus for all such thinking - enabling much 
more ability to discover where there is agreement on any actionable 
items, and precisely what is required to achieve all of them, in highest 
priority order, according to the largest consensus.   All this instead 
of having to endlessly argue over any disagreements in priority or 
reasons or initial directions, debating who has authority for what, and 
so on - as mostly disables and prevents so many people from getting 
involved in any such efforts today.

Brent Allsop




BillK wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
>   
>> Of course you or I, as individuals, sending a letter to third world country
>> leaders would likely do nothing.  But wouldn't something like a dynamic
>> always improving petition that goes viral and is signed by millions of
>> people showing gross comprehensive agreement by everyone on the importance
>> of such critical actionable issues (including any other points of view, and
>> quantitative measures of consensus of such, if any) have a chance of
>> changing the world for the better?
>>
>>     
>
>
> I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding in this discussion.
>
> Iodine deficiency is a well-known problem that the World Health
> Organization, UNICEF and others have been working on since 1990. And
> they have made great improvements, although more still needs to be
> done.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine_deficiency>
>
> UNICEF published a progress report in 2007.
> <http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/Sustainable_Elimination_of_Iodine_Deficiency.pdf>
> Quote:
> A worldwide effort has dramatically raised the proportion of people
> consuming iodized salt from less than 20 per cent in 1990 to about 70
> per cent by 2000. Thirty-four countries have achieved the elimination
> of iodine deficiency through universal salt iodization.  By 2006, more
> than 120 countries were implementing salt iodization programmes, an
> increase of one third in just six years compared to the 90 countries
> with such programmes in 2000.
> --------------
>
>
> Of the remaining problem countries many are involved in conflict
> situations and have difficulty implementing *any* public health
> measures. But the effort is continuing.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   

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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec  7 00:59:34 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 18:59:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] get this proposal into the hands of...
In-Reply-To: <1228598658_16853@s7.cableone.net>
References: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<493AE162.6020809@comcast.net> <1228598658_16853@s7.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081206185529.0236fac8@satx.rr.com>

At 02:18 PM 12/6/2008 -0700, Keith wrote:

>Assume I have a reasonable cost solution to the energy crisis (and 
>in fact I think I do and many of your are aware of it).
>
>I have no idea of how to get this proposal into the hands of anyone 
>who could so anything with it.
>
>What do you suggest?

A ladder of access. It shouldn't be impossible to get the ear of, 
say, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. They have military and some 
political connections. Or maybe via the wealthy people who've started 
to get behind Eliezer's SIAI--maybe they could be reached by 
intermediaries? Or use your dolorous experiences with The Bastards 
Who May Not Be Named to get an Op Ed piece into the NYT, as Bill 
Ayers did today. There must be means like this.

Damien Broderick 



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 09:26:47 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:26:47 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <493B11F8.9090300@comcast.net>
References: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>
	<ee50357e0812061509u66bc6255h2cf45d666a98b1a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<493B11F8.9090300@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812070126t49409979p736e2e1c54c4e5c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
> In addition, as with any such world wide multi country efforts, there is
> going to be different POV on what is most important to do next, where, the
> reasons for such, and so on.  http://canonizer.com would seek to concisely
> state the diversity of beliefs about such plans and needs, and concisely
> measure the consensus for all such thinking - enabling much more ability to
> discover where there is agreement on any actionable items, and precisely
> what is required to achieve all of them, in highest priority order,
> according to the largest consensus.   All this instead of having to
> endlessly argue over any disagreements in priority or reasons or initial
> directions, debating who has authority for what, and so on - as mostly
> disables and prevents so many people from getting involved in any such
> efforts today.
>


I think the problem in using the canonizer in such multi-national
situations is differing objectives. Seeking knowledge and common
ground is not the main objective. In chaotic warzone type countries,
blatant 'What's in it for me?' is the bosses reaction.  The people at
the top in these countries are more like brutal gangsters than the
more civilized white-collar corruption that we have in the west. But
nobody is going to put into the canonizer "I don't agree with that POV
until I get a million USD in my Swiss bank account'. It might be of
use in more abstract philosophical argumentation though.


BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 14:30:27 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:30:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking into
	Space Based Solar Power.
In-Reply-To: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <cfrjlr at aim.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 8:26 AM
Subject: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking into Space
Based Solar Power.
To: artemis-list at asi.org



Please Digg this link:

The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking into Space Based Solar Power.

?http://is.gd/azRf



** The following attachments were removed: multipart/alternative
 text/html


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 15:28:21 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:28:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking
	into Space Based Solar Power.
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
	<55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812070728s4fbde7e0r78840c47c179ee76@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:
> The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking into Space Based Solar Power.
>


Sorry, but having had a look, I think the above statement is hopeful
exaggeration.

Many reports are presented to OBTT, but there is no sign of any
official interest in Space Solar.

The official policy statement says:
# Ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by
2012, and 25 percent by 2025.

This report comes from the National Security Space Office and it looks
to me as an attempt by the military - industrial complex to get a few
billions of extra funding from the energy budget.

To be realistic, the economy going down the drain is going to swamp
all other interests for years to come.

BillK


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 16:15:52 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:15:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking
	into Space Based Solar Power.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0812070728s4fbde7e0r78840c47c179ee76@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
	<55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee50357e0812070728s4fbde7e0r78840c47c179ee76@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812070815kff9da8ch3e812bbfb4e45bb6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 9:28 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote:
>> The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking into Space Based Solar Power.
>
> Sorry, but having had a look, I think the above statement is hopeful
> exaggeration.

It may be. In truth I was forwarding it over to the extropy list
because Keith's watching and the previous spell of emails that were
going around on here. More like laziness on my part for not looking up
his email address too. :-) A little bit of that.

- Bryan


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Dec  7 16:31:10 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:31:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby Shower Invitation -
	Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08
Message-ID: <6D802D54AF81419D8DE7CCE65FADAE75@DFC68LF1>

You are cordially invited to
 
Amara's Baby Shower
 

ON December 14, at the time of your geographic location, please

Click
<http://slurl.com/secondlife/Extropia%20Core/120/50/22/?img=http://cosmeng.o
rg/images/1/1c/Cosmengsl1s.jpg&title=Cosmic%20Engineers%20@%20Extropia%20Cor
e&msg=Cosmic%20Engineers%20@%20Extropia%20Core> here to
<http://slurl.com/secondlife/Extropia%20Core/120/50/22/?img=http://cosmeng.o
rg/images/1/1c/Cosmengsl1s.jpg&title=Cosmic%20Engineers%20@%20Extropia%20Cor
e&msg=Cosmic%20Engineers%20@%20Extropia%20Core> Teleport to the event
location in Second Life


Second Life is a social 3D virtual world, or metaverse, often visited by
transhumanists 
who meet and attend seminars and other events at the
<http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Cosmic_Engineers_SL_Group> Cosmic Engineers
lounge 
on the Extropia Core island.
<mailto:natasha at natasha.cc?subject=Contact%20for%20Assistance%20with%20Secon
d%20Life> Contact for assistance.

Please view invitation and "Message from Amara" here
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/amarababyshower.htm> . 


 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 
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From eschatoon at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 18:12:54 2008
From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:12:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Reminder: Second annual Thinkers Lecture, December 7,
	Second Life
Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90812071012w10d7b784n695cc017c08c000@mail.gmail.com>

Reminder: the lecture will take place in Second Life, today December 7
at noon PST.

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 7:21 AM, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com> wrote:
> THINKERS LECTURE 2008, by Extropia DaSilva
>
> There are over 120 million digital cameras, 230 million mp3 players
> and a billion PCs uploading written documents, audio recordings and
> video footage to the Web. Since only a minute fraction of all that
> information is relevant to any one person at any one time, how do we
> find what we are looking for? We rely on search engines. As the likes
> of Google improve in their ability to anticipate your needs and find
> meaningful patterns in the information humanity accumulates, what are
> they evolving into?
>
> Lecture to be held at Cosmic Engineers, 7th December at Noon.
>
> Repeated at Supportforhealing 9th December at 3:30pm
>
> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/second_annual_thinkers_lecture_december_7_second_life/
>
> --
> Eschatoon Magic
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
> aka Giulio Prisco
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
>



-- 
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco


From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Sun Dec  7 20:34:42 2008
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 13:34:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0812070126t49409979p736e2e1c54c4e5c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200812061947.mB6JlxdF003927@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<493AE162.6020809@comcast.net>	<ee50357e0812061509u66bc6255h2cf45d666a98b1a0@mail.gmail.com>	<493B11F8.9090300@comcast.net>
	<ee50357e0812070126t49409979p736e2e1c54c4e5c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493C3362.3040005@comcast.net>


Bill,

Yes, good point.  Where I think some kind of easy reputable polling 
system would work is when such a gangster wants something other than 
what the people want.

For example, when Russia invaded Georgia, evernyone knew what the 
russion leaders wanted, everyone knew what the Georgian leaders wanted, 
and everyone knew what George Bush wanted.  But did anyone even care 
what the Georgian people wanted?

Nobody should care what any thug leaders want, they should know what the 
people want.  And if there was an easy reputable efficient way to know 
that, and some thug leader was working against that, I'd bet the people 
under such thugs, with the support of the rest of the world, would kick 
that thug out very fast right?

The important key is how do you do easy, efficient, reliable, reputable, 
concise, and quantitative information from large groups of people.  If 
you can do that, then sudenly all world thugs would be completely neutered.

But of course, lots of people in these countries don't even have 
internet access.  So obviosly still lots of work to do - but progress is 
being made.

Brent Allsop







BillK wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
>   
>> In addition, as with any such world wide multi country efforts, there is
>> going to be different POV on what is most important to do next, where, the
>> reasons for such, and so on.  http://canonizer.com would seek to concisely
>> state the diversity of beliefs about such plans and needs, and concisely
>> measure the consensus for all such thinking - enabling much more ability to
>> discover where there is agreement on any actionable items, and precisely
>> what is required to achieve all of them, in highest priority order,
>> according to the largest consensus.   All this instead of having to
>> endlessly argue over any disagreements in priority or reasons or initial
>> directions, debating who has authority for what, and so on - as mostly
>> disables and prevents so many people from getting involved in any such
>> efforts today.
>>
>>     
>
>
> I think the problem in using the canonizer in such multi-national
> situations is differing objectives. Seeking knowledge and common
> ground is not the main objective. In chaotic warzone type countries,
> blatant 'What's in it for me?' is the bosses reaction.  The people at
> the top in these countries are more like brutal gangsters than the
> more civilized white-collar corruption that we have in the west. But
> nobody is going to put into the canonizer "I don't agree with that POV
> until I get a million USD in my Swiss bank account'. It might be of
> use in more abstract philosophical argumentation though.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>   



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  7 20:51:53 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:51:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Making [100 million] people smarter on the cheap.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.122.1228660230.686.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <587521.68346.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

When I was at Liverpool University, I had the good fortune to learn about the WHO and UNICEF backed project to iodise salt. It turned out the emeritus professor of the Tropical Medicine school who was lecturing was on the team who discovered the cause of Papua New Guinea's increasing rate of mental handicap. Ever since the 1950s, the rate of congenital mental problems had been skyrocketing in some areas of Papua New Guine. Not every group affected had had significant contact with westerners, causing some confusion as to what the cause was.
 
Various viruses and bacteria were excluded. Eventually someone thought of the historical example of cretinism, and checked the iodine levels in the local soils. Sure enough, the areas affected had very low iodine. But why had they not suffered such a high rate before? Why was increasing contact with the outside world affecting everyone?

 It turned out that the problem was people shipping in cheap salt. Traditionally, to make salt, the upland tribes went through a laborious process of burning particular leaves in salty springs to produce a small amount of rich, mineralised salt. When cheap table salt became available as in import, very few people bothered with the traditional method. The new salt didn't have iodine, and so communities became iodine deficient. As salt was widely used as a trade good, a community didn't have to have ever met a white man to purchase the white man's salt.

The problem was solved by banning the importation of non-iodised salt. This rapidly improved the situation. Since then, the WHO has backed micronutrient schemes for 2 substances globally - Iodine and Vitamin D (to prevent rickets).

Now, maybe a scheme to ban the sale of non-iodised salt might seem too heavy handed. If that isn't politically acceptable, you could just put a tax on it - by making people who want it search out the slightly more expensive alternative to what has become the new norm (iodised salt), you encourage the vast, uncaring mass of humanity to go by default to iodised salt.

Tom


      


From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Sun Dec  7 23:19:51 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:19:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking
	into Space Based Solar Power.
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
	<55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812071519r31df3b26y1c0e3b761e7d4bc@mail.gmail.com>

Where's the evidence that the Obama-Biden Transition Team even know anything
about this proposal?  The headline isn't just hyperbole, it's a lie.  I'm
hopeful too; there was an article on Slashdot a while back that also implied
that the President-elect transition team are looking into space-based solar
power, but I'm desperately looking for something the least bit credible.

But I just wanted to thank the participants on this list for all the
interesting discussions about space-based solar power.  Khenson keeps
mentioning a webpage where he keeps his plans on but I haven't found the
link yet.  Does anyone know where it is?

One suggestion though, if we don't have the technology to build a space
elevator, and if the technology probably isn't even possible given our
current level of development, why mention it at all?  I mean, launching
solar power satellites would probably be cheaper using Star Trek
transporters too, but it's pointless mentioning it and it just makes you
sound like a kook.  But SPS sounds like a credible, *existing* technology,
and that's the only thing that makes it an actionable item that I think the
President-elect, if he's really serious about issues like the economy,
energy, and the environment, needs to take a long, well-examined, look at.
It's interesting to note how many items on his platform this technology
checks off.

But, man, amazing stuff, if we can even get it off the ground.

Kevin
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Dec  7 23:39:01 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:39:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking
 into Space Based Solar Power.
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812071519r31df3b26y1c0e3b761e7d4bc@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
	<55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812071519r31df3b26y1c0e3b761e7d4bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1228693622_20658@s8.cableone.net>

At 04:19 PM 12/7/2008, Kevin wrote:

>Where's the evidence that the Obama-Biden Transition Team even know 
>anything about this proposal?  The headline isn't just hyperbole, 
>it's a lie.  I'm hopeful too; there was an article on Slashdot a 
>while back that also implied that the President-elect transition 
>team are looking into space-based solar power, but I'm desperately 
>looking for something the least bit credible.
>
>But I just wanted to thank the participants on this list for all the 
>interesting discussions about space-based solar power.  Khenson 
>keeps mentioning a webpage where he keeps his plans on but I haven't 
>found the link yet.  Does anyone know where it is?

http://htyp.org/Dollar_a_gallon_gasoline  How to make it

http://htyp.org/Penny_a_kWh  What you need

http://htyp.org/Hundred_dollars_a_kg  How to get it

http://htyp.org/Miller%27s_method  How to finance the whole project 
without government money.

These are wiki pages.  If you see errors, fix them, or make a note on 
the discussion page or email me.

>One suggestion though, if we don't have the technology to build a 
>space elevator, and if the technology probably isn't even possible 
>given our current level of development, why mention it at all?

Even with rockets you can make a case, though I think a weak 
case.   You can make a much stronger case with either the partial 
elevator that ends a planetary diameter out or using a rocket to pop 
up above the atmosphere and push the payload with an ablation propulsion laser.

>I mean, launching solar power satellites would probably be cheaper 
>using Star Trek transporters too, but it's pointless mentioning it 
>and it just makes you sound like a kook.  But SPS sounds like a 
>credible, *existing* technology, and that's the only thing that 
>makes it an actionable item that I think the President-elect, if 
>he's really serious about issues like the economy, energy, and the 
>environment, needs to take a long, well-examined, look at.  It's 
>interesting to note how many items on his platform this technology checks off.

Yep.  With oceans of space based solar energy we could even turn the 
CO2 back into oil and put it back in the oil fields.

>But, man, amazing stuff, if we can even get it off the ground.

It's a design to cost problem.  The ultimate cost of getting a kg 
into GEO is around $10/kg and 15 cents of electric power.

Keith 



From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 00:44:23 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:44:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking
	into Space Based Solar Power.
In-Reply-To: <1228693622_20658@s8.cableone.net>
References: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
	<55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812071519r31df3b26y1c0e3b761e7d4bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1228693622_20658@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812071644n46de3384l8feea77601ae8cb6@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the reply.  One thing that nags me though.

On 12/7/08, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
>
> At 04:19 PM 12/7/2008, Kevin wrote:
>
Even with rockets you can make a case, though I think a weak case.   You can
> make a much stronger case with either the partial elevator that ends a
> planetary diameter out or using a rocket to pop up above the atmosphere and
> push the payload with an ablation propulsion laser.


I've been doing my best to google laser ablative propulsion and I've found a
few links but few sources.  If you have any references I'd be happy to look
at them.  But I did find one article that seems to ring pessimistic:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/laser_propulsion_000705.html

"Cole sees a 21st century where passenger-carrying space vehicles might be
powered upward on laser light. That laser would churn out 100 gigawatts of
power, he admits.

'That's 10,000 times bigger than any laser that's been built. But, hey, I'll
take whatever works,' Cole said."

So, what size of a laser are we talking about?  Does it really take a 100
gigawatt laser to launch a couple of passengers into space?  Is this a
realistic laser we're talking about, or a megaproject as a prerequisite for
another megaproject?

Thanks,

Kevin
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Dec  8 04:48:00 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 21:48:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Artemis] The Obama-Biden Transition Team looking
 into Space Based Solar Power.
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812071644n46de3384l8feea77601ae8cb6@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <8CB268EF1D86EA4-B10-1DD4@webmail-de11.sysops.aol.com>
	<55ad6af70812070630u68366d81k882691267457cfa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812071519r31df3b26y1c0e3b761e7d4bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1228693622_20658@s8.cableone.net>
	<c49b1db60812071644n46de3384l8feea77601ae8cb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1228712011_21170@s1.cableone.net>

At 05:44 PM 12/7/2008, Kevin wrote:

>Thanks for the reply.  One thing that nags me though.
>
>On 12/7/08, hkhenson <<mailto:hkhenson at rogers.com>hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
>At 04:19 PM 12/7/2008, Kevin wrote:
>
>Even with rockets you can make a case, though I think a weak 
>case.   You can make a much stronger case with either the partial 
>elevator that ends a planetary diameter out or using a rocket to pop 
>up above the atmosphere and push the payload with an ablation propulsion laser.
>
>
>I've been doing my best to google laser ablative propulsion and I've 
>found a few links but few sources.  If you have any references I'd 
>be happy to look at them.  But I did find one article that seems to 
>ring pessimistic:
>
><http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/laser_propulsion_000705.html>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/laser_propulsion_000705.html
>
>"Cole sees a 21st century where passenger-carrying space vehicles 
>might be powered upward on laser light. That laser would churn out 
>100 gigawatts of power, he admits.
>
>'That's 10,000 times bigger than any laser that's been built. But, 
>hey, I'll take whatever works,' Cole said."
>
>So, what size of a laser are we talking about?

4 GW output, 8 GW input. 800 5 MW output solid state lasers or some 
such combination of numbers and power.  The laser beams go close to 
straight up and bounce off 800 five tonne mirrors in GEO.  The 
rockets with the laser stage go up about 90 degrees around the planet 
near or on the equator.

>Does it really take a 100 gigawatt laser to launch a couple of 
>passengers into space?

Doing it straight up from the ground, the standard figure is a MW/kg. 
So a GW launches a tonne and a hundred GW 100 tonnes.  That's large, 
but it depends on what you want to do with it.  It's not enough for a 
Mars Mission.  See Jordin Kare's papers on this subject.  Lofting the 
laser stage to 260 miles with a low performance rocket allows a much 
smaller laser because the rockets have already done the work of 
fighting up through the atmosphere.  So you can get away with 1 to 1 
1/4 g of acceleration for the 15 minutes of sub orbital flight and a 
laser only 1/6th as large.  Jordin says this is a new approach, Dr 
Koelle says it was considered long ago and rejected because of the 
poor performance of lasers in those days.

>Is this a realistic laser we're talking about, or a megaproject as a 
>prerequisite for another megaproject?

Even at 1/25th of Cole's laser, it's a big project.  Solid state 
lasers are $10/W, so the lasers would cost $40 billion.  By the time 
we get all the redirection mirrors to GEO, it going to cost $100 
billion.  On the other hand, if we want to build power satellites at 
a rate where they would actually solve the energy problem we need to 
lift upwards of a billion kg/year.  $100 billion written off over 10 
years is $10 billion a year.  If we are lifting a billion kg, that's 
$10/kg.  The rocket (smaller than the smallest 747) might add $10 to 
$30 per kg to this cost.

The payload at 25 tonnes could be a passenger module for a dozen 
people.  It would not be that rough a ride.  The rocket peaks at 
(IIRC) 3.5 g, the laser injection to geosynchronous transfer orbit is 
just a bit over a g.

>Thanks,

Don't hesitate to ask questions.

Keith

>Kevin
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From eschatoon at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 07:58:01 2008
From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:58:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Reminder: Second annual Thinkers Lecture, December 7,
	Second Life
In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90812071012w10d7b784n695cc017c08c000@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812071012w10d7b784n695cc017c08c000@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90812072358r7ec36369yd2e9e0263a54cedb@mail.gmail.com>

The full text of Extropia's lecture is here:

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/extropia_dasilvas_2008_thinkers_lecture_on_google_and_the_red_queen/

The chat log is here:

http://cosmeng.org/publicwiki/index.php/Chat_Logs/2008-12-07

See also another essay by Extropia:

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/shades_of_grey_an_essay_by_extropia_dasilva/

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com> wrote:
> Reminder: the lecture will take place in Second Life, today December 7
> at noon PST.
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 7:21 AM, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> THINKERS LECTURE 2008, by Extropia DaSilva
>>
>> There are over 120 million digital cameras, 230 million mp3 players
>> and a billion PCs uploading written documents, audio recordings and
>> video footage to the Web. Since only a minute fraction of all that
>> information is relevant to any one person at any one time, how do we
>> find what we are looking for? We rely on search engines. As the likes
>> of Google improve in their ability to anticipate your needs and find
>> meaningful patterns in the information humanity accumulates, what are
>> they evolving into?
>>
>> Lecture to be held at Cosmic Engineers, 7th December at Noon.
>>
>> Repeated at Supportforhealing 9th December at 3:30pm
>>
>> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/second_annual_thinkers_lecture_december_7_second_life/
>>
>> --
>> Eschatoon Magic
>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
>> aka Giulio Prisco
>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Eschatoon Magic
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
> aka Giulio Prisco
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
>



-- 
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 19:29:57 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:29:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>

Practical fusion power is truly the linchpin technology for creating a
better world. Without it, even nanotech, biotech, cogtech and cybertech will
be stifled by limited available energy. It's safer, less vulnerable to
attack, and potentially more decentralized than such solutions as solar
power satellites.
See http://latorra.blogspot.com/

Regards,
Mike LaTorra

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
>
> Chance of success at French megaproject enhanced
>
> By Lewis Page<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2008/12/05/mit_fusion_boffins_iter_tech/>? Get
> more from this author<http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Lewis%20Page>
>
> Posted in Environment <http://www.theregister.co.uk/science/environment/>,
> 5th December 2008 11:13 GMT
>
> Boffins at MIT say they have cracked some tricky problems in the design of
> power stations running on nuclear fusion, though they hasten to add that
> many more hurdles remain before fusion energy becomes a reality.
>
> "There's been a lot of progress," says Earl Marmar, head of the Alcator
> Project at the MIT Plasma Science and Fusion Center (PSFC).
>
> "We're learning a lot more about the details of how these things work."
>
> The Alcator project has its own reactor, and physicists there have been
> working on several conundrums which have to be solved before the new
> super-sized international reactor in France (ITER) can even be completed.
>
> In particular, the MIT brains say they have worked out a new and better
> method for making the unbelievably hot plasma inside the doughnut shaped
> reactor move around. It has to do that, apparently, in order not to lose all
> its heat into the vessel walls.
>
> It seems that Yijun Lin and John Rice of MIT have found a way of making the
> plasma move about by pushing it with radio waves, which will be critical to
> the operation of the ITER.
>
> "That's very important," Marmar says. "People have been trying to do this
> for decades."
>
> No plasma circulation "is potentially a showstopper" for ITER, according to
> Rice. However nobody is exactly sure why the MIT radio-push methods work.
>
> "Some of these results are surprising to theorists," says Lin.
>
> The Alcator team are also proud to announce their development of a cunning
> noble-gas extinguisher method for quenching troublesome beams of "runaway
> electrons", which can apparently be an issue in the event of a fusion
> reactor's magnetic containment fields having a collywobble.
>
> Lin thinks that incorporation of the MIT technology will give the enormous,
> multibillion-pound ITER a much greater chance of success. "Our results are
> just in time," he says, as the mighty machine is already half built.
>
> That's obviously very important, because if practical fusion reactors can
> be developed which put out more power than they need to run, the human
> race's energy problems are largely over. Unlike the scarce and expensive
> uranium required for present-day fission reactors, the hydrogen isotopes
> which would be used for fusion are commonplace and could readily be
> extracted from seawater.
>
> Clean and abundant fusion electricity, quite apart from rendering the
> wind/coal/fission power-station debate irrelevant, would also solve the
> underlying problems of replacing fossil-fuelled transport. No matter whether
> you favour hydrogen or battery or synthi-petrol made from CO2, very large
> amounts of energy have to be used.
>
> Indeed, most of the world's troubles actually boil down to energy in the
> end. Farms in the Third World could easily feed the world's hungry if they
> had energy-intensive fertilisers and powered machinery: starvation is
> essentially an energy problem. Water is energy, too - there's no need to
> worry about how much you use if you can make more out of seawater.
>
> So we should all be hoping that ITER is a success, and cheering on fusion
> researchers like the MIT Alcator team. (R)
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/mit_fusion_boffins_iter_tech/
>
>
>
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> wta-talk mailing list
> wta-talk at transhumanism.org
> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk
>
>
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Dec  8 19:17:13 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:17:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Travel
In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90812072358r7ec36369yd2e9e0263a54cedb@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1fa8c3b90812071012w10d7b784n695cc017c08c000@mail.gmail.com>
	<1fa8c3b90812072358r7ec36369yd2e9e0263a54cedb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1228764165_24005@S4.cableone.net>

I will be on the west coast for part of this week.  It's possible I 
could meet some of you in the flesh.

Email for details.

Keith



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 21:01:44 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:01:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Practical fusion power is truly the linchpin technology for creating a
> better world. Without it, even nanotech, biotech, cogtech and cybertech will
> be stifled by limited available energy. It's safer, less vulnerable to
> attack, and potentially more decentralized than such solutions as solar
> power satellites.
> See http://latorra.blogspot.com/

Yes. Owing to the brilliant advocacy of a few of us, I grew more and
more interested in, and informed about, the prospective of space-based
solar power - something i have never really been in more or less
dreamy rhetoric about other "renewable", and more fashionable, energy
sources - but controlled fusion still sounds to me as an irremissible
goal in the march towards a world where the two only real resources
and limiting factors are going to be information and energy.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 22:29:14 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:29:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] NKS Summer School in Pisa, Italy
Message-ID: <580930c20812081429n612e25a7x3972019764205381@mail.gmail.com>

I have received and forward, for the information of those possibly
interested, especially in Italy:

<<We are now accepting applications for the seventh annual NKS
Summer School. The three-week, tuition-free program--June 22
through July 10 at CNR-Istituto ISTI in Pisa, Italy--is a unique
opportunity to get involved with original research at the
frontiers of science.
http://www.wolframscience.com/summerschool

We are looking for highly motivated individuals who want to
advance their careers in an NKS direction. Our participants come
from many diverse backgrounds, but share a common passion to
discover and explore cutting-edge ideas. In past years, they have
included graduate students, undergraduates, professors, industry
professionals, artists, and even a few exceptional high-school
students.

If accepted to the Summer School, you will work directly with
others in the NKS community--including Stephen Wolfram and a
staff of instructors who have made significant contributions to
NKS--on your own original project that could develop into
published papers or the foundations for your thesis.

Take a look at the lecture notes from previous years to get a
sense of what topics will be covered:
http://www.wolframscience.com/summerschool/materials

If you're serious about getting involved with similarly
innovative ideas at the core of NKS, you should consider applying
as soon as possible.

Apply online at:
http://www.wolframscience.com/summerschool/application.cgi

Sincerely,


Todd Rowland, PhD
NKS Summer School Academic Director

Catherine Boucher, PhD
NKS Summer School Program Director>>

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 11:18:04 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:18:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] HUMOR: Funny ad on the bailout economy
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812100318h7e367ce9kc9fe3c3c8c2d2531@mail.gmail.com>

<http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg>


BillK


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Dec 10 17:48:16 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:48:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Feedback on  Abstract
Message-ID: <1246430D41524F3D8885CB94212B5CA9@DFC68LF1>

Can anyone offer feedback on the below abstract for an ucomping conference -
http://www.mediaarthistory.org/ and also mention here:
<http://www.superhuman.org.au/> http://www.superhuman.org.au/
 
For example, I am having a little difficulty with terms such as "existence"
"personal existence" "human existence" and "life extension" "enhancement".
If I use "existence" it does not have to have "life".  But if I use
"personal existence", it relates to the materiality of human life, which is
correct, but I am not sure it is the correct phrase.  If I use "temporally",
it means over time; but that "time" element may not relate fully to radical
life extension onto non-biological platforms.  
 
 
 

"The Transformative Human: radically enhancing/extending life"

 

Electronic arts augment human mobility and sensory ability, AI-driven
wearable robotics extend cognitive processing, and biological arts
manipulate living organisms.  But where is the artistic field in which the
cyborg, transhuman, and posthuman reside headed?  In fact, is there a field
at all and, if not, could such a field explore artistic use of
nanotechnology, biotechnology, information technology and cognitive and
neuroscience for the purpose of human transformation?

 

The author's supposition is that these nascent technologies - the
nano-bio-info-cogno quartet - revisit the histories of electronic arts,
robotics, and biological arts in challenging imaginary boundaries concerning
how far artists can go to extend, augment, and enhance human beings.  For
example, one such boundary might suggest an inability to extend biological
life onto semi and non-biological platforms.  Removing such a boundary, art
could play a crucial role on the way toward extending personal existence
beyond biologically limited lifespans. Further, because media arts'
augmentation of reality establishes a valued benchmark for extending
biological senses, nano-bio-info-cogno platforms might have parallel value
by extending the medium of human existence temporally.

 

Exploring the transformative human as a future human prototype offers
possible objectives for artistic works and might foster innovative
strategies for revisiting media arts' role in the continuation of human
morphology.

 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue Dec  9 22:10:09 2008
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:10:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Arthur Kantrowitz, RIP
Message-ID: <200812092234.mB9MY3QE010124@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I'm sad to report that a great of our community has died. I first heard
of Arthur from my mother circa the Gemini missions in the 60's.  (She'll
advise Physics Today on their obit on him; I will let you know when it
comes out.)

Laser launching was his idea. Instrumental in the founding of the
L-5 Society. A mentor to Keith Henson. A founding advisor to the
Foresight Institute. Etc., for a few pages.

I was lucky enough to have had a few wonderful afternoons with
him up at Dartmouth. When I last saw him, age was starting to take
its toll, but he retained his passion and clear sight for the shared
extropian vision.

Arthur R. Kantrowitz, Whose Wide-Ranging Research Had Many 
Applications, Is Dead at 95
<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/science/09kantrowitz.html>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kantrowitz>

Alas, AFAIK, not suspended. (Not for want of people trying to
persuade him, though.)


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 10 22:36:23 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:36:23 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Arthur Kantrowitz, RIP
In-Reply-To: <200812092234.mB9MY3QE010124@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200812092234.mB9MY3QE010124@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081210163406.027782c0@satx.rr.com>

At 05:10 PM 12/9/2008 -0500, David Lubkin wrote:

>I'm sad to report that a great of our community has died.

Very sad, even at 95.

But hey, David! I've been trying to reach you by email and via this 
list. An offlist reply would be welcomed, and perhaps to our mutual advantage.

Thanks.

Damien Broderick



From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Dec 11 18:24:43 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:24:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: In defense of cognition-enhancing drugs
References: <000e0cd3298222aa90045dbb18a2@google.com>
Message-ID: <F66D54FA-C311-4F44-A4A4-6658E3234789@mac.com>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: samantha <sjatkins at gmail.com>
> Date: December 10, 2008 5:14:12 PM PST
> To: sjatkins at mac.com
> Subject: In defense of cognition-enhancing drugs
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent to you by samantha via Google Reader:
>
>
> In defense of cognition-enhancing drugs
> via Boing Boing by Cory Doctorow on 12/9/08
> A commentary in this week's issue of the journal Nature argues that  
> cognitive performance-enhancing drugs should be made widely  
> available, and sets out an ethical and legal framework for doing so  
> in a way that maximises the social good of being able to choose what  
> state of mind you're in. Contributors to the article include a  
> Stanford law prof, a Cambridge research psychiatrist, a Harvard med- 
> school prof, and other distinguished personages.
> Human ingenuity has given us means of enhancing our brains through  
> inventions such as written language, printing and the Internet. Most  
> authors of this Commentary are teachers and strive to enhance the  
> minds of their students, both by adding substantive information and  
> by showing them new and better ways to process that information. And  
> we are all aware of the abilities to enhance our brains with  
> adequate exercise, nutrition and sleep. The drugs just reviewed,  
> along with newer technologies such as brain stimulation and  
> prosthetic brain chips, should be viewed in the same general  
> category as education, good health habits, and information  
> technology ? ways that our uniquely innovative species tries to  
> improve itself.
> Of course, no two enhancements are equivalent in every way, and some  
> of the differences have moral relevance. For example, the benefits  
> of education require some effort at self-improvement whereas the  
> benefits of sleep do not. Enhancing by nutrition involves changing  
> what we ingest and is therefore invasive in a way that reading is  
> not. The opportunity to benefit from Internet access is less  
> equitably distributed than the opportunity to benefit from exercise.  
> Cognitive-enhancing drugs require relatively little effort, are  
> invasive and for the time being are not equitably distributed, but  
> none of these provides reasonable grounds for prohibition. Drugs may  
> seem distinctive among enhancements in that they bring about their  
> effects by altering brain function, but in reality so does any  
> intervention that enhances cognition. Recent research has identified  
> beneficial neural changes engendered by exercise10, nutrition11 and  
> sleep12, as well as instruction13 and reading14. In short, cognitive- 
> enhancing drugs seem morally equivalent to other, more familiar,  
> enhancements.
>
> Many people have doubts about the moral status of enhancement drugs  
> for reasons ranging from the pragmatic to the philosophical,  
> including concerns about short-circuiting personal agency and  
> undermining the value of human effort15. Kass16, for example, has  
> written of the subtle but, in his view, important differences  
> between human enhancement through biotechnology and through more  
> traditional means. Such arguments have been persuasively rejected  
> (for example, ref. 17). Three arguments against the use of cognitive  
> enhancement by the healthy quickly bubble to the surface in most  
> discussions: that it is cheating, that it is unnatural and that it  
> amounts to drug abuse.
>
>
> Towards responsible use of cognitive-enhancing drugs by the healthy  
> (Thanks, Guido!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Things you can do from here:
> Subscribe to Boing Boing using Google Reader
> Get started using Google Reader to easily keep up with all your  
> favorite sites
>
>

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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 04:29:25 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:59:25 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Elusive word...
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812112029q4726329bl1717f4601bf86500@mail.gmail.com>

A colleague of mine had an excellent idea the other day, that it'd be
cool to have a handheld gadget (think a pen or mouse form factor) that
is like a printing "brush", which you would wipe over a paper surface
and it'd print on it; it'd track movement precisely, modelling its own
movement in 2d, so you could be really sloppy with it and the print
out would be great.

Long story short, it already exists of course and here it is:
http://www.rnpalm.com/printdreams.htm

Now this has happened to all of us before; for some of us it's a daily
occurrence. When you think of an idea, not only does it not turn out
to be novel, but there are at least 10 instances of other people with
the idea, and usually one or more fully realised commercial
implementations (where that is appropriate).

It occurred to me that there ought to be a word for it. And of course
that there will already be a word for it (probably multiple). Anyone
know what the word or words is/are?

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting
-
Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.


From scerir at libero.it  Fri Dec 12 07:23:09 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:23:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Elusive word...
References: <710b78fc0812112029q4726329bl1717f4601bf86500@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401c95c2a$7d21f8d0$40064797@archimede>

> It occurred to me that there ought to be a word for it. And of course
> that there will already be a word for it (probably multiple). Anyone
> know what the word or words is/are?
> Emlyn

Still elusive ...
but read this
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/12/080512fa_fact_gladwell?printable=true
and see 'Matthew effect' and 'Stigler law'.



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 07:52:57 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 00:52:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "Journey to the Edge of the Universe" science documentary
Message-ID: <2d6187670812112352q2b11f5aaw79d91843d0dcf945@mail.gmail.com>

I am very excited about seeing this National Geographic Channel
documentary about the universe and plan to view it this Sunday.  Have
any of you seen it yet?

John  : )

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/journey-to-the-edge-of-the-universe-3023/Overview77#tab-Overview


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Fri Dec 12 07:57:01 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:57:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Journey to the Edge of the Universe" science documentary
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812112352q2b11f5aaw79d91843d0dcf945@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670812112352q2b11f5aaw79d91843d0dcf945@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F2B130A84A0446AB3F2C7AFD5E447AE@GinaSony>

Yes, I saw it and it was wonderful!

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Grigg 
  To: ExI chat list ; World Transhumanist Association Discussion List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:52 PM
  Subject: [ExI] "Journey to the Edge of the Universe" science documentary


  I am very excited about seeing this National Geographic Channel
  documentary about the universe and plan to view it this Sunday.  Have
  any of you seen it yet?

  John  : )

  http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/journey-to-the-edge-of-the-universe-3023/Overview77#tab-Overview
  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 12 08:17:59 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 02:17:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Elusive word...
In-Reply-To: <000401c95c2a$7d21f8d0$40064797@archimede>
References: <710b78fc0812112029q4726329bl1717f4601bf86500@mail.gmail.com>
	<000401c95c2a$7d21f8d0$40064797@archimede>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081212021425.022bb840@satx.rr.com>

At 08:23 AM 12/12/2008 +0100, Serafino pointed to

><http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/12/080512fa_fact_gladwell?printable=true>

A typically fascinating Gladwellian mishmash of ideas about ideas. 
His synthesist smarties were beaten to it by Fred Pohl's story "In 
the Problem Pit" (1973) and my Pohl-derivative Grope Pit, in THE 
DREAMING [DRAGONS] (1980), thereby proving the point Gladders is making...

Damien Broderick 



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 08:25:43 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 00:25:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Elusive word...
Message-ID: <828174.10149.qm@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:

> A colleague of mine had an excellent idea the other day,
> that it'd be
> cool to have a handheld gadget (think a pen or mouse form
> factor) that
> is like a printing "brush", which you would wipe
> over a paper surface
> and it'd print on it; it'd track movement
> precisely, modelling its own
> movement in 2d, so you could be really sloppy with it and
> the print
> out would be great.

It is a clever idea. That someone thought of it before you does not take away from you having thought of it too. Especially if you can make yours an improvement over their prior art. Most expecially if you can get your implementation into the hands of the consumer.

> It occurred to me that there ought to be a word for it. And
> of course
> that there will already be a word for it (probably
> multiple). Anyone
> know what the word or words is/are?

When it happens in biology, it is called convergent evolution or simply convergence. An example would be wings and flight. Insects, birds, and bats all converged on flight albeit with differently structured wings and flight behavior because it was so evolutionarily advantageous to fly. Such a solution could be considered a local fitness maximum and as such could be converged upon from many different starting points on the fitness landscape. Memes evolve even faster since their replication is so cheap. Of course the actual fitness of memes and genes are determined by their expression and selection, either natural or monkey-mediated. ;-) 


Stuart LaForge

"It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision." - Helen Keller





      


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 17:06:46 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:06:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Elusive word...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081212021425.022bb840@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0812112029q4726329bl1717f4601bf86500@mail.gmail.com>
	<000401c95c2a$7d21f8d0$40064797@archimede>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081212021425.022bb840@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30812120906r36326cafi9f261147406d565c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:17 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> At 08:23 AM 12/12/2008 +0100, Serafino pointed to
>
>>
>> <http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/12/080512fa_fact_gladwell?printable=true>
>
> A typically fascinating Gladwellian mishmash of ideas about ideas. His
> synthesist smarties were beaten to it by Fred Pohl's story "In the Problem
> Pit" (1973) and my Pohl-derivative Grope Pit, in THE DREAMING [DRAGONS]
> (1980), thereby proving the point Gladders is making...

In the entertainment world, it not only happens ALL the time, once
someone pitches a story to anyone else, we refer to it being "in the
ether", ready for anyone else to grab and use.  What's more, we assume
it will happen.  The rush to production is whipped by the threat of
"someone will beat us to it".  Writers/producers/etc. here accept the
collective unconsciousness, at least pertaining to stories, regardless
of whether the person has even heard of the concept.  Fuggettabout
actually reading Jung...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious

Of course, most synchronicity has no mystery involved.  A clutch of
volcano movies came out at the same time (and dozens more were in
development) because of an article on vulcanologists in the NYT
Magazine.  I know, because I pitched one to my company way back
when...  :)  Same thing with meteor movies, submarine/undersea movies,
Capote movies, etc.  The ideas that inspire entertainers are out there
to be grabbed, like any other idea in any other arena.  Creation is
all about synthesis.

PJ


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Dec 13 04:44:03 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:44:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>

At 02:01 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Practical fusion power is truly the linchpin technology for creating a
> > better world. Without it, even nanotech, biotech, cogtech and 
> cybertech will
> > be stifled by limited available energy. It's safer, less vulnerable to
> > attack, and potentially more decentralized than such solutions as solar
> > power satellites.
> > See http://latorra.blogspot.com/
>
>Yes. Owing to the brilliant advocacy of a few of us, I grew more and
>more interested in, and informed about, the prospective of space-based
>solar power -

I would like to make the point that space based solar power *is* 
fusion.  Gravity confined fusion.  You only need about 10^33 grams of 
hydrogen in a pile to get it to fuse.

Incidentally any big neutron source is a potential problem what with 
all the depleted uranium scattered around.

Keith

>something i have never really been in more or less
>dreamy rhetoric about other "renewable", and more fashionable, energy
>sources - but controlled fusion still sounds to me as an irremissible
>goal in the march towards a world where the two only real resources
>and limiting factors are going to be information and energy.
>
>Stefano Vaj
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 06:33:17 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:03:17 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Status Competitions and the Singularity (was Re: Elusive
	word...)
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812122233o77e17126w72e16a1bb6188ac4@mail.gmail.com>

>> It occurred to me that there ought to be a word for it. And
>> of course
>> that there will already be a word for it (probably
>> multiple). Anyone
>> know what the word or words is/are?
>
> When it happens in biology, it is called convergent evolution or simply convergence. An example would be wings and flight. Insects, birds, and bats all converged on flight albeit with differently structured wings and flight behavior because it was so evolutionarily advantageous to fly. Such a solution could be considered a local fitness maximum and as such could be converged upon from many different starting points on the fitness landscape. Memes evolve even faster since their replication is so cheap. Of course the actual fitness of memes and genes are determined by their expression and selection, either natural or monkey-mediated. ;-)
>
>

I have some ideas here that I haven't written down in a very
coordinated way, here's a messy first shot at it.

Introduction:
The internet has reduced the cost of collaboration, which also reduces
the cost of competitions. Competitions can visibly only have a few
winners, now from a global pool. So, there are now more competitions,
across a mind boggling expanse of domains. Competitions have a
characteristic resource (such as money, time, social network, physical
ability, intellect). Crucially, **competitions are algorithms for
finding those who will maximise use of the characteristic resource**.

To me, the really interesting competitions have intellect as the
characteristic resource, and as a side effect produce intellectual
output of increasing quality, which can be used at a cost approaching
zero by everyone else, forever.

This, of course, is why unrestricted information sharing is important.
These competitions require free access to knowledge. Free universal
access to all human knowledge will maximally support these
competitions, and that, I think, will be the genesis of singularity.

---

We're seeing something really fascinating with the evolution of ideas
in the presence of the internet. I think of the free software
movement, and (Gnu)Linux as the most striking example, but it's really
only one of many.

People like ladders to climb. Ladders of status. That's much of the
appeal of games, it's why we play politics and why we accumulate
money. What the internet has provided is a new, much richer set of
competitive environments; more status ladders.

Status is relative position in a ranking system. Status competitions
are played out over different domains, and these different domains
reward the spending of different kinds of resources. The types of
resources that come to mind to me are money, time, physical ability,
domain skill, raw intellect, and social network. There are probably
more.

I think each type of status competition has a characteristic resource,
the use of which dominates all others for that competition. This is
key. I describe competitions below in terms of their characteristic
resource.

Money:
I think money competitions are more common in the offline world,
simply because it works as a default; you might have nothing in common
with those geographically close to you, but you all need money, so you
can all compete with money.
You can have pissing contests over houses, cars, etc, all of that is
money as the characteristic resource. Intellect, special knowledge,
time, all these can contribute to mitigate absolute money costs of
such a competition, but ultimately a bigger wallet will dwarf all
else.

Time:
There are a lot of literal games online, particularly commercial
games, that reward primarily time. The World of Warcraft is the
canonical example. Other resources types are necessary but not
sufficient. eg: intelligence lets you use your time better, an
encyclopedic knowledge of the rules will let you use your time better,
physical dexterity will lead to better gain for time input. Money can
even help. But time is king. If you can't put in the hours, none of
the other resources will help you.

Commercial games favour time as the primary resource, because it's the
least alienating to the most people. You might not have much money,
you might not be terribly smart or terribly focused or terribly
bright, but your time is as good as the next person's. Requiring time
as the characteristic resource seems to be most likely to be seen as
egalitarian.

Another competition rewarding time might be government work (public
service). Many large orgs are like this too. Promotion is rarely a
meritocracy, it is often rather about number of years served. Also
social network plays well here, but still often is only a modifier to
raw time.

Physical ability:
Physical ability is a resource that we see in sports, and online we
see it in the class of player vs player games. Particularly, wherever
games require dexterity, where they are short (minutes or hours rather
than weeks, years or indefinite), and where there is no character
progression (no idea of "my character is level 57"), physical ability
is king.

Intellect:
Domain knowledge and raw intellect are a bit hard to separate. Let's
just call it intellect (oversimplification). You see intellect as the
characteristic resource in player provided tools for online games,
also in all kinds of "grey" areas online (particularly the guys that
crack software / drm!). We are beginning to see it in the creative
commons community (a random example, http://ccmixter.org/). And, of
course, you see it in the open source and free software community.

---
Why is this interesting? It's interesting because the internet
decreases costs of collaboration toward zero, and adds the power of
large numbers (of people!). So these very specific competitions become
global and extreme, and something like a genetic algorithm moves the
competitions to extreme conclusions. The type of extreme result
depends on the characteristic resource.

The algorithm seems to be roughly
- Evaluate and rank competitors against the fitness function (defined
largely in terms of the characteristic resource and the environment)
- Modify the set of competitors based on this (losers tend to leave,
new blood comes, some existing competitors modify strategies)
- Modify the environment as a side effect of the fitness function
- Rinse and Repeat

The extremes of time competition:
Time competitions iterate until the winners are spending quite
stunning amounts of time. Top World of Warcraft players can easily
spend far more time in game than they spend in work or at school, for
instance. The most extreme example I remember was when "honor" (an
in-game statistic, at that time not a currency) was awarded in a
relative fashion based on how much success you had in battlegrounds.
Not how much relative success, but how much absolute success. For any
given week, the players would be ordered in terms of absolute number
of kills (I think, this is hazily recollected), and assigned a rank
based on where they were in the ordering, and their previous rank (so
you would climb or fall back in ranks slowly, week by week). The
ranks, in turn, as well as being status in and of themselves, allowed
characters to purchase items that were excellent and otherwise
unavailable.

There were a small number of ranks (14 in total?) At the height of the
madness, I remember a friend telling me that to get from the 13th to
the 14th rank, you needed to play the battlegrounds at a high level of
skill for 24 hours a day, for 3 weeks! No one can do that, but people
would team up to play a character in shifts to make that happen. Also
you need a guild (in game group of allied players) to be feeding you
gold to repair your character's gear during that time (because there
is no time for your character to go doing that for itself, and the
requirement for gold and supporting items was a huge burden). And of
course you needed to get to the 13th rank, no mean feat itself.

What's interesting about this level of time investment is that there a
level of selection for it. If you join successful guilds, they'll be
full of people who are willing to commit seemingly endless amounts of
time to the game. People don't join guilds then become like that;
rather, people who are already like that form and are invited to join
the great guilds. The environment doesn't teach you to maximise the
characteristic resource, it selects for those that do.

Money extremes:
Donald Trump. Warren Buffett. Bill Gates. Offline stuff. See the last
few hundred years. I wont discuss this further here.

Physical skill extremes:
You'll see this in any Player vs Player game's online arenas. For
games like quake or halo or nexuiz, the classic experience is to learn
to play offline, playing against the computer until you are as good as
you can be, think you are pretty good, then to go online and play
against other players, and to lose and lose and lose. Humiliating. I
speak from personal experience. It takes a lot of play against other
humans to even come close to par. Tellingly, unless you are actually
physically good at these games (good reaction times?), there is a
ceiling above which you will just never rise (it seems to me).

Why is this so common an experience? It's not just because people
become good who play online regularly (although you do improve). It's
more because people who aren't skilled don't stick with it, where
people with ability stay. So just about any forum like this selects
for the physically adept. The environment doesn't teach you to be
better, it selects for those who are.

Intellect extremes:
And of course we come to intellect competitions. Again, we see that
the environment doesn't teach you to maximise the resource, it selects
for those that can. In any of the intellect competitions I come
across, especially those that have been running for a while, I am
struck by the excellence of the output. We could say Science is an
example. But the example that's really struck me recently is the open
source / free software domain.

It's tempting to think, as a professional commercial software
developer, that you could just swan into one of the open source
projects and do important work, but it's really just not true. It's
tempting to think of these efforts as those of a few bleeding heart
info hippies, under resourced and producing barely functional product.
Barely ok but if you want something serious you need to pay for a
commercial product. But that's wrong.

I've been amazed to discover just how wrong this is. As a newly turned
on Ubuntu user, I've seen the incredible breadth and depth of tools
available for every conceivable task, all freely available. eg: You
want to burn a CD? There are many alternatives, all easy to get, all
polished, a couple of them stronger than any commercial offering.
That's a banal example, but it's just so vast, there's no way to do it
justice. From the little I've seen into the development process itself
so far, I am humbled by the quality.

The Cathedral and the Bazaar covers a lot of why this works, but I
think there's an extra point to be made explicit, which is this: Open
Source and Free Software development are a competition. They're a
competition for mindshare. Because there are a lot of people involved,
and because no one can really stand in the way of people doing things
well (anyone who tries can really just be routed around; projects
fork), and because the arbiters of mindshare are exactly the same
people as the competitors, the dominant way of gaining mindshare is to
just do a better job than others. I'm sure this is enhanced by money
(buys useful resources, and can pay people), and time (software
development is always an endurance effort), but the characteristic
resource seems to be roughly intellect, or more specifically, being
great at what you do.

And, as with the other types of competition, although this improves
you, it doesn't teach you to be great at building software. It just
selects for those who are.

I think we are beginning to see this kind of thing in artsy creative
areas, although it's hampered because its not as self-referential. For
authors, the mindshare is not based in the minds of your peers, it's
based in the great unwashed public, who still believe what the
marketers tell them for the most part. I think we can expect to see
this pick up eventually, but without the tight feedback loop and heavy
interreliance that free software enjoys, the algorithm isn't as strong
and works more slowly.

There's probably more, but I'm out of puff. I can't win at time based
competitions. My contention though is that this is the stuff of
singularity.

And, of course, I dedicate this post into the public domain, to the
detriment of my heirs and successors, etc etc, beautiful!

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting
-
money is a sign of poverty


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Dec 13 07:55:53 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 02:55:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com><9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

That boat has sailed, the world is already awash in hundreds of tons of
poorly guarded Plutonium, and you only need a few pounds for a bomb. It's
only a matter of time till you will wake up one fine morning and open your
favorite newspaper and find that a major city has simply disappeared
overnight. Bummer.

And a boron hydrogen fusion reaction creates no neutrons, just energy. Dr
Bussard claimed with a little tweaking and just a few million dollars his
Polywell reactor could produce just such a boron hydrogen fusion reaction.
He was probably wrong, I would estimate the probability of him being right
at no more than 2 percent (maybe 3), but the implications of him being right
are so huge it's worth a paltry million bucks or so.

He very well could be proven to be dead wrong, time will tell, but even if
he is wrong history will say he wasn't peddling Bullshit, he was just wrong.
It happens even the best of us.

And the trouble with power satellites is that you have to invest about a
trillion dollars before you get your first watt of usable energy, before you
can really know if the idea will work. And don't tell me you have it all
worked out, in a project that large, that astronomically huge, something out
of left field that neither you or anybody else imagined could easily turn
out to be a total show stopper. And then you kiss your trillion dollars
away.

I really really hope my skepticism about power satellites proves to be
wrong, I hope my skepticism about a Polywell producing a boron hydrogen
fusion reaction that produces more energy than it consumes is wrong too.

It could happen, I know it's incredible and stretches credulity to the
breaking point but believe it or not I've been proven wrong before.

  John K Clark




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Dec 13 18:27:06 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:27:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
	<E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1229193161_23467@s8.cableone.net>

At 12:55 AM 12/13/2008, John Clark wrote:

>That boat has sailed, the world is already awash in hundreds of tons of
>poorly guarded Plutonium, and you only need a few pounds for a bomb.

Reactor grade plutonium is nasty stuff, typically 20% Pu 240.  If 
they *really* know what they are doing, people can make bombs out of 
this stuff.  But the high neutron flux out of the Pu 240 makes 
premature detonation almost a sure thing unless the design is very 
sophisticated.  Thus what should be a Nagasaki yield (21,000 tons of 
TNT equivalent) became 400 tons in the North Korean bomb test, the 
difference largely being the Nagasaki bomb was made of weapons grade plutonium.

>It's
>only a matter of time till you will wake up one fine morning and open your
>favorite newspaper and find that a major city has simply disappeared
>overnight. Bummer.

Bummer anyway, but a 10kt terrorist device set off at ground level 
doesn't knock a very big hole in a city.  See the map of DC and the 
area affected by such a 
blast. 
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/nuclear-low-yield-weapons-impact.htm 
If you ever see a big flash, move at right angles to the wind.

snip

>And the trouble with power satellites is that you have to invest about a
>trillion dollars before you get your first watt of usable energy, before you
>can really know if the idea will work. And don't tell me you have it all
>worked out, in a project that large, that astronomically huge, something out
>of left field that neither you or anybody else imagined could easily turn
>out to be a total show stopper. And then you kiss your trillion dollars
>away.

It isn't going to cost anywhere close to a trillion bucks to see if 
the idea works.  The engineering risk is so low that I don't think 
there is any point in going through testing it in stages.  For 
example, if you were to ask a thousand microwave engineers it they 
thought there would be any problem in transmitting 5 GW of power to 
the ground from GEO, at least 990 of them would say it's a not a 
problem.  Maybe all 1000 of them.  We have been transmitting 
microwave energy down from GEO for decades from communications satellites.

The current best estimates are in the $350 billion range.  Of course 
that assumes the project were done in a more permissive legal 
environment, say China.  The big ticket items are either a partial 
space elevator (rockets up to the end about one earth diameter out) 
or a 4 GW laser for the pop up and push transport system.  Both need 
to be sized to about a million tons per year if power sats are going 
to replace fossil fuels over a 30 year span.  I don't have a figure 
on the partial elevator, but the laser transport system (under 
$100/kg to GEO) looks like $40 billion for the lasers (at $10/watt) 
$20 billion for the mirrors in GEO and $20 billion for the pop up 
rockets that loft 50 ton laser stages to 260 miles.  A 4 MW test 
(0.1%) Jordin Kare says can be done for a billion.  That's worth 
building for either method because you really want to clean up the 
space junk for an elevator.  A 4MW laser will deorbit at least 100kg/hr.

>I really really hope my skepticism about power satellites proves to be
>wrong,

Well, if you or anyone else who groks high school physics and can 
follow the math wants to help reduced the skepticism, try going over 
the figures in the web sites I have posted here.  If you can find 
holes, point them out.  If you can't, say so on the discussion pages.

>I hope my skepticism about a Polywell producing a boron hydrogen
>fusion reaction that produces more energy than it consumes is wrong too.
>
>It could happen, I know it's incredible and stretches credulity to the
>breaking point but believe it or not I've been proven wrong before.

I don't care how power sats are implemented.  I don't even care if 
they *are* implemented as long as we find a way (or ways) to replace 
the energy we now get from fossil fuels.  People who have tried find 
current "renewables" to fall short. http://www.withouthotair.com/ 
Make a case with physics and math for Polywell boron fusion.  Send it 
to David MacKay.   If you can make a convincing case, I will drop 
mucking with power sats and join that bandwagon.

Keith 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 17:06:00 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:06:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <580930c20812130906i7766c4efr8d59b9d5f842720f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 5:44 AM, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> I would like to make the point that space based solar power *is* fusion.
>  Gravity confined fusion.

Yes, I appreciate that. In fact, the only problem with gravity
confinement as opposed to inertia or electromagnetic confinement is
that it does not make it really easy to build portable minireactors
that can be switched on and off at will... :-)

But of course the objection is that this may be a secondary point when
we have a large scale reactor available for free not too far from
earth, especially when the limitations and troubles connected with its
utilisation on planetary surfaces and through an atmosphere are
removed.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Dec 13 16:43:14 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:43:14 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Status Competitions and the Singularity (was Re: Elusive
	word...)
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812122233o77e17126w72e16a1bb6188ac4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812122233o77e17126w72e16a1bb6188ac4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812130843yf65d3cav231d35a89cccb372@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:33 AM, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > When it happens in biology, it is called convergent evolution or simply convergence.
>
> I have some ideas here that I haven't written down in a very
> coordinated way, here's a messy first shot at it.

I found this the other day and am sure it fits into a reply, but I'm
not sure where.

An anthropologist explores ubuntu:
http://eskar.dk/andreas/blog/thesis/

> This, of course, is why unrestricted information sharing is important.
> These competitions require free access to knowledge. Free universal
> access to all human knowledge will maximally support these
> competitions, and that, I think, will be the genesis of singularity.

I am not as strict in my definition of singularity as others might be.
The strictest form of singularity is RSI with ai, but I also see
kinematic self-replicating machines as a way to exponentially
replicate and do lots of fancy feedback loops. I am not sure if the
mere existence of competitions would lead to either of those
situations. Stu Kauffman is thinking that it is "competitions plus a
little extra something else".

> We're seeing something really fascinating with the evolution of ideas
> in the presence of the internet. I think of the free software
> movement, and (Gnu)Linux as the most striking example, but it's really
> only one of many.

"Revolution OS", a chronicle of GNU/Linux -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7707585592627775409

> People like ladders to climb. Ladders of status. That's much of the
> appeal of games, it's why we play politics and why we accumulate
> money. What the internet has provided is a new, much richer set of
> competitive environments; more status ladders.

re: ladders;
http://www.pdfernhout.net/post-scarcity-princeton.html
" As is suggested here, I personally feel life and society need a
balance of meshwork and hierarchy:
    http://netbase.org/delanda/meshwork.htm
Indeed, one must resist the temptation to make hierarchies into
villains and meshworks into heroes, not only because, as I said, they
are constantly turning into one another, but because in real life we
find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these cannot be
established through theory alone but demand concrete experimentation."

> Money:
> I think money competitions are more common in the offline world,
> simply because it works as a default; you might have nothing in common
> with those geographically close to you, but you all need money, so you
> can all compete with money.

Just some more interesting links ..

http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money
http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Money
http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Social_Currency_Model
http://openmoney.org/top/omanifesto.html
http://del.icio.us/mbauwens/Abundance

"You treasure what you measure, and you measure what you treasure.
Open money provides the tools to implement this maxim. What should we
be treasuring in our culture and on our planet that we so far have no
way to measure?"

Personally I don't think an advanced civilization should have money
(they'd be more clever). But, if you want to spout on about what's
been happening on the internet + money and other currencies, those are
the best links I can think of.

> Intellect:
> Domain knowledge and raw intellect are a bit hard to separate. Let's
> just call it intellect (oversimplification). You see intellect as the
> characteristic resource in player provided tools for online games,
> also in all kinds of "grey" areas online (particularly the guys that
> crack software / drm!). We are beginning to see it in the creative
> commons community (a random example, http://ccmixter.org/). And, of
> course, you see it in the open source and free software community.

Other interesting books on these topics and the creative commons:

Two Bits - The Cultural Significance of Free Software
http://twobits.net/

Oh look. While I was going to twobits to quote their title, I found
this nice tidbit:
http://twobits.net/2008/12/01/andreas-lloyd-on-two-bits/
((Andreas was the one who did the anthropology-of-ubuntu thesis above))

The Public Domain - Enclosing the Commons of the Mind
http://thepublicdomain.org/

> Why is this interesting? It's interesting because the internet
> decreases costs of collaboration toward zero, and adds the power of
> large numbers (of people!). So these very specific competitions become
> global and extreme, and something like a genetic algorithm moves the
> competitions to extreme conclusions. The type of extreme result
> depends on the characteristic resource.

One of the big problems with the "Why is it interesting" question
shows up when you introduce others into this domain. They wonder "why
does this matter", but if Wikipedia isn't enough of an answer, if
Google, built on top of free software, isn't an answer, etc. etc.,
then it's almost hopeless :-). I'm sure somebody will be able to make
up a compelling argument for "why you should be interested" to
nonbelievers. Even recently there was an upset here in Austin, where a
teacher thought that something like Linux was surely impossible--
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/08/12/10/001236.shtml

Most teachers seem to understand Wikipedia and how many people are
contributing to it, since it's one of the top 10 websites on the net
(ran by all of, what, 10 people under the hood), but I don't
understand how it's such a hard conceptual leap from the GPL
documentation license to the regular GPL that most linux projects are
released under.

> The algorithm seems to be roughly
> - Evaluate and rank competitors against the fitness function (defined
> largely in terms of the characteristic resource and the environment)
> - Modify the set of competitors based on this (losers tend to leave,
> new blood comes, some existing competitors modify strategies)
> - Modify the environment as a side effect of the fitness function
> - Rinse and Repeat

I am not sure if this is the full 'algorithm' for what's going on. For
instance, 'modify the set of competitors' just seems plain wrong;
people come and go in the free software scenes as they please, not
because of some over-ruling algorithm that they trust their life to.


> Intellect extremes:
> And of course we come to intellect competitions. Again, we see that
> the environment doesn't teach you to maximise the resource, it selects
> for those that can. In any of the intellect competitions I come
> across, especially those that have been running for a while, I am
> struck by the excellence of the output. We could say Science is an
> example. But the example that's really struck me recently is the open
> source / free software domain.
>
> It's tempting to think, as a professional commercial software
> developer, that you could just swan into one of the open source
> projects and do important work, but it's really just not true. It's
> tempting to think of these efforts as those of a few bleeding heart
> info hippies, under resourced and producing barely functional product.
> Barely ok but if you want something serious you need to pay for a
> commercial product. But that's wrong.
>
> I've been amazed to discover just how wrong this is. As a newly turned
> on Ubuntu user, I've seen the incredible breadth and depth of tools
> available for every conceivable task, all freely available. eg: You
> want to burn a CD? There are many alternatives, all easy to get, all
> polished, a couple of them stronger than any commercial offering.
> That's a banal example, but it's just so vast, there's no way to do it
> justice. From the little I've seen into the development process itself
> so far, I am humbled by the quality.

Also check out how extreme this all is--
http://advogato.org/article/972.html
("Distributed Debian Distribution Development")
(debian is the 'parent' of ubuntu, mostly because of the packaging
system and shared ancestry)

> The Cathedral and the Bazaar covers a lot of why this works, but I
> think there's an extra point to be made explicit, which is this: Open
> Source and Free Software development are a competition. They're a
> competition for mindshare. Because there are a lot of people involved,
> and because no one can really stand in the way of people doing things
> well (anyone who tries can really just be routed around; projects
> fork), and because the arbiters of mindshare are exactly the same
> people as the competitors, the dominant way of gaining mindshare is to
> just do a better job than others. I'm sure this is enhanced by money
> (buys useful resources, and can pay people), and time (software
> development is always an endurance effort), but the characteristic
> resource seems to be roughly intellect, or more specifically, being
> great at what you do.

Funny you should mention ESR's essay. I just posted OMNE's
interpretation of ESR's words into aphorisms regarding open design and
open content in general to the open manufacturing mailing list, which
has been experiencing lots of activity over the past months-
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/t/24950c9c120b6b76

> There's probably more, but I'm out of puff. I can't win at time based
> competitions. My contention though is that this is the stuff of
> singularity.

A friend of mine wrote somewhat about that in some critiques of
Kurzweil's works:
http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
(he has his own biases of course when it comes to singularity, but if
you want the GNU-like perspective on things, there you go.)

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From eschatoon at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 18:19:38 2008
From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:19:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby Shower
	Invitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08
In-Reply-To: <6D802D54AF81419D8DE7CCE65FADAE75@DFC68LF1>
References: <6D802D54AF81419D8DE7CCE65FADAE75@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90812141019p747d2f6dh736f2c5f8fa42eea@mail.gmail.com>

Reminder - the baby shower is starting in 40 minutes! Amara is here already.

g.

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> You are cordially invited to
>
>
>
> ON December 14, at the time of your geographic location, please
>
> Click here to Teleport to the event location in Second Life
>
> Second Life is a social 3D virtual world, or metaverse, often visited by
> transhumanists
> who meet and attend seminars and other events at the Cosmic Engineers lounge
> on the Extropia Core island.  Contact for assistance.
>
> Please view invitation and "Message from Amara" here.
>
>
>
>  Natasha Vita-More
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wta-talk mailing list
> wta-talk at transhumanism.org
> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk
>
>



-- 
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco


From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 14 19:19:16 2008
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:19:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby Shower
	Invitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08
In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90812141019p747d2f6dh736f2c5f8fa42eea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <109854.16943.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What is the exact address?
I'm at the core but I don't see the CE lounge...

--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby Shower Invitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08
To: "World Transhumanist Association Discussion List" <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>
Cc: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>, exi-bay-chat at lists.extropy.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 12:19 PM

Reminder - the baby shower is starting in 40 minutes! Amara is here already.

g.

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:
> You are cordially invited to
>
>
>
> ON December 14, at the time of your geographic location, please
>
> Click here to Teleport to the event location in Second Life
>
> Second Life is a social 3D virtual world, or metaverse, often visited by
> transhumanists
> who meet and attend seminars and other events at the Cosmic Engineers
lounge
> on the Extropia Core island.  Contact for assistance.
>
> Please view invitation and "Message from Amara" here.
>
>
>
>  Natasha Vita-More
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wta-talk mailing list
> wta-talk at transhumanism.org
> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk
>
>



-- 
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Dec 14 19:59:24 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:59:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby
	ShowerInvitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08
In-Reply-To: <109854.16943.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812141019p747d2f6dh736f2c5f8fa42eea@mail.gmail.com>
	<109854.16943.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FE47CC175E4949108520FC7D5C0E3ED8@DFC68LF1>

Go to http://www.transhumanist.biz/amarababyshower.htm and click on the
"teleport" link at the top of the page.
 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 

  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of giovanni
santost
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:19 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby
ShowerInvitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08



What is the exact address?
I'm at the core but I don't see the CE lounge...

--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby Shower
Invitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08
To: "World Transhumanist Association Discussion List"
<wta-talk at transhumanism.org>
Cc: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>,
exi-bay-chat at lists.extropy.org
Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 12:19 PM


Reminder - the baby shower is starting in 40 minutes! Amara is here already.



g.



On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>

wrote:

> You are cordially invited to

>

>

>

> ON December 14, at the time of your geographic location, please

>

> Click here to Teleport to the event location in Second Life

>

> Second Life is a social 3D virtual world, or metaverse, often visited by

> transhumanists

> who meet and attend seminars and other events at the Cosmic Engineers

lounge

> on the Extropia Core island.  Contact for assistance.

>

> Please view invitation and "Message from Amara" here.

>

>

>

>  Natasha Vita-More

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> wta-talk mailing list

> wta-talk at transhumanism.org

> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk

>

>







-- 

Eschatoon Magic

http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon

aka Giulio Prisco

http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco

_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Dec 14 20:00:02 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:00:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby
	ShowerInvitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08
In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90812141019p747d2f6dh736f2c5f8fa42eea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6D802D54AF81419D8DE7CCE65FADAE75@DFC68LF1>
	<1fa8c3b90812141019p747d2f6dh736f2c5f8fa42eea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B207FF410EB74842B0059CA181CB2B22@DFC68LF1>

http://www.transhumanist.biz/amarababyshower.htm

Click on the link at the top of the page where it says "teleport".

See you there! 


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org
[mailto:wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org] On Behalf Of Eschatoon Magic
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:20 PM
To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List
Cc: ExI chat list; exi-bay-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [wta-talk] Second Life Event: Amara Graps - Baby
ShowerInvitation - Second Life on Sunday, 12/14/08

Reminder - the baby shower is starting in 40 minutes! Amara is here already.

g.

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:
> You are cordially invited to
>
>
>
> ON December 14, at the time of your geographic location, please
>
> Click here to Teleport to the event location in Second Life
>
> Second Life is a social 3D virtual world, or metaverse, often visited 
> by transhumanists who meet and attend seminars and other events at the 
> Cosmic Engineers lounge on the Extropia Core island.  Contact for 
> assistance.
>
> Please view invitation and "Message from Amara" here.
>
>
>
>  Natasha Vita-More
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wta-talk mailing list
> wta-talk at transhumanism.org
> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk
>
>



--
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
_______________________________________________
wta-talk mailing list
wta-talk at transhumanism.org
http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 14 21:22:50 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:22:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
Message-ID: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

-- On Fri, 12/12/08, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Money:
> I think money competitions are more common in the offline
> world,
> simply because it works as a default; you might have
> nothing in common
> with those geographically close to you, but you all need
> money, so you
> can all compete with money.
> You can have pissing contests over houses, cars, etc, all
> of that is
> money as the characteristic resource. Intellect, special
> knowledge,
> time, all these can contribute to mitigate absolute money
> costs of
> such a competition, but ultimately a bigger wallet will
> dwarf all
> else.

Coincidently trying to raise seed capital amidst a world-wide-recession has caused me to think a lot about money lately. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking

An American commercial bank gets to loan out approximately $4 ($3.57 actually) for every $1 they have on hand. Such money is created by the very act of borrowing it from a bank. So every dollar out there is a dollar that some schmoe owes to a bank at interest and every bank can loan out nearly four times the money it has on hand for four times the interest. Meanwhile the only *real* money in the economy is held by the banks in reserve.

In other words, the money in ciculation is not wealth at all but simply debt that *somebody* out there owes a bank no matter who is actually in possesion of the dollar in question. And if the loans go bad, the banks try to find a sucker to buy them. And if the suckers won't bite, the banks get bailed out by government-coerced tax-payers with no questions asked. Plus they get all that nifty foreclosed real estate.

No wonder so much money can just disappear so suddenly when only 1 in 5 dollars is actually backed by a real dollar while the others are like virtual dollars that exist at the discretion of a single industry. IMHO, the invisible hand of the capitalist free market tried to strangle the defective banking system and failed. We are essentially giving them prizes for being market losers. The monetary system is like a parasite's paradise courtesy of the government. 

I think the fractional reserve system is the culprit responsible for bubbles, recessions, the Great Depression and other market anomalies. That a few talented or well-connected individuals can make money speculating on these market spasms doesn't mean that the spasms are not a symptom of a glitch in the system. At the best of times, banks operate as bottlenecks that retard the free and efficient flow of capital throughout the economy. And at the worst of times, they can bring the entire economy to its knees. No single industry should be allowed to have so much power over all other industries, the government, and people.
 
For a cartoon that explains it quite nicely see:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

Stuart LaForge

"It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision." - Helen Keller










      


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 15 00:46:26 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:46:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>

Those damnable "international bankers" and their conspiracy, the 
Trilateral Commission, eh? That was such a surprise ending.



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 15 01:11:09 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:11:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Sun, 12/14/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> Those damnable "international bankers" and their
> conspiracy, the Trilateral Commission, eh? That was such a
> surprise ending.

I didn't say anything about a conspiracy. I merely said that there is a industry that gets to play the money game and referee it at the same time.

Stuart LaForge

"It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision." - Helen Keller




      


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 15 02:33:45 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:33:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>

At 05:11 PM 12/14/2008 -0800, Stuart wrote:

> > Those damnable "international bankers" and their
> > conspiracy, the Trilateral Commission, eh? That was such a
> > surprise ending.
>
>I didn't say anything about a conspiracy.

I was referring to the toon on banking you url'd. 
(It had its moments, when it wasn't falling into 
the bad old habit of showing bad guys named 
Goldsmith and top-hatted bankers with hooked 
noses--shades of Der St?rmer.) Sorry, should have been clearer.

Damien Broderick




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 02:48:06 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:48:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812141848q4daf6401q4a14a62289f1d5f0@mail.gmail.com>

On the Jon Stewart Show a few days ago they had the head of the
"infamous" Council on Foreign Relations/CFR as a special guest.  What
I found somewhat disturbing about the interview was when this man
tried to explain how the economic ties between the U.S. and China were
so strong that they would most likely prevent a war between the two
great powers.  I wish Stewart had jumped on him at that point but
perhaps he is not so sharp regarding the international scene.

When I read "The Guns of August" last year the author told of a
bestseller throughout Europe that came out a few years before WWI
started and explained how the economic ties between Germany, France
and England would most definitely stop any major war from breaking
out.

I think this may be another case of history repeating itself.  But I hope not...

John


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 02:54:55 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:54:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] funny video on human relationships...
Message-ID: <2d6187670812141854u33c355cu1f0d2d8c3d208b49@mail.gmail.com>

This is "off-topic" but extremely funny.  Of course no guy here (being
so brilliant and perceptive) would err as horribly as the fellow in
the video...

Have you ever been in the dog house? lol

http://bewareofthedoghouse.com/video.aspx

John  ; )


From stefan.pernar at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 03:14:25 2008
From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:14:25 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <944947f20812141914y35763d43if8ef4891add21117@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:22 AM, The Avantguardian <
avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> For a cartoon that explains it quite nicely see:
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
>
>
Glad to see this is finally getting to a wider audience. For some analysis
from a fellow extropian - particularly from a perspective of Gold (aka real
money) - I suggest http://blog.cyrrion.com

Cheers,

Stefan

-- 
Stefan Pernar
Skype: Stefan.Pernar
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 15 03:28:29 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:28:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <944947f20812141914y35763d43if8ef4891add21117@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<944947f20812141914y35763d43if8ef4891add21117@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214212001.02c85ab0@satx.rr.com>

At 11:14 AM 12/15/2008 +0800, Stephan wrote:

>from a perspective of Gold (aka real money)

Omg. Money is not a *thing*, it's a signifier, an operator; reifying 
it is a step backward into immobility and superstition. Half a 
millennium ago Spain screwed up its own economy and a lot of others 
by dumping a shitload of the stolen shiny stuff into the market. Gold 
has the minimal advantage these days that it's hard to find heaps 
more on Earth, so a gold-based money supply can't be pumped up in the 
bogus fashion displayed nicely in the cartoon (but those at the helm 
can always just change the attributed value). Since real wealth *is* 
increasing (O blessed extropy!), there does need to be a way to pump 
in more of the standard signifiers. But some rationality applied to 
the process would be desirable.

Damien Broderick



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 03:42:36 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:42:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] funny video on human relationships...
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812141854u33c355cu1f0d2d8c3d208b49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670812141854u33c355cu1f0d2d8c3d208b49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30812141942o513a5787tb66ca394acf4b831@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 6:54 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you ever been in the dog house? lol
>
> http://bewareofthedoghouse.com/video.aspx

I love this ad.  Best thing that ever came out of JC Penney.

PJ


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 15 04:10:38 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:10:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com>

At 01:22 PM 12/14/2008 -0800, Stuart recommended:

>a cartoon that explains it quite nicely ...
>
>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

Barbara Lamar the tax lawyer comments:

I don't buy Paul Grignon's statement that if interest is charged on 
loans of "real" money, the bankers end up with all the money. This 
would only be true (even on a theoretical level) if the banks could 
loan money in excess of their reserves.

Also, I think his idea to have "the government" do the banking is 
naive. The main cause of the present mess is that a small group of 
people have a monopoly on the control of money. When a few 
individuals have this much power, the temptation to misuse the power 
is always too great. Based on my reading of history, I can't see that 
it would have made any difference whether or not the Federal Reserve 
Act created a system in which private banks were involved, or whether 
it had created a government owned central bank. Thee have been plenty 
of cases where government owned central banks caused every bit as 
much trouble as the federal reserve system.  The root of the problem 
is concentration of power and a legal system that allows individuals 
to avoid responsibility for their wrongdoing by hiding behind a 
corporate or sovereign veil.

Here are some things we could do that would actual be likely to work:

1. Change corporation law so that management and shareholders can be 
held liable for damage done to other persons by the corporation.
2. Get rid of central banks.
3. Get rid of government regulation of banks and set up a private 
regulatory organization to which membership is voluntary. This would 
be far more likely to work well than government regulation.
4. Reverse court opinions holding that depositors are creditors of 
the bank, rather than the owners of the funds they have deposited. 
When I deposit $100 in the bank, the bank should not increase the 
balance of their assets by $100 -- my $100 does not belong on the 
bank's balance sheet at all.
   



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 04:18:37 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:48:37 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214212001.02c85ab0@satx.rr.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<944947f20812141914y35763d43if8ef4891add21117@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214212001.02c85ab0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812142018r259e29awe27633db7a5cf604@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/15 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
> At 11:14 AM 12/15/2008 +0800, Stephan wrote:
>
>> from a perspective of Gold (aka real money)
>
> Omg. Money is not a *thing*, it's a signifier, an operator; reifying it is a
> step backward into immobility and superstition. Half a millennium ago Spain
> screwed up its own economy and a lot of others by dumping a shitload of the
> stolen shiny stuff into the market. Gold has the minimal advantage these
> days that it's hard to find heaps more on Earth, so a gold-based money
> supply can't be pumped up in the bogus fashion displayed nicely in the
> cartoon (but those at the helm can always just change the attributed value).
> Since real wealth *is* increasing (O blessed extropy!), there does need to
> be a way to pump in more of the standard signifiers. But some rationality
> applied to the process would be desirable.
>
> Damien Broderick

Or better yet, recognise the concept as useful but fundamentally
flawed, and think about ways to restrict it to where it does more good
than harm.

If I work for a small company to build some proprietary software, I
get paid well. No benefit of my labour might be realised at all, or
else it might be realised in terms of small gain for a small group of
people (owners of the software, and users of the software). Both
groups are strictly limited in size. The length of time over which
that gain will be realised is also going to be short. The only gain
that can be had from my software regards the features. Any excellence
in the underlying structures will reach very few people (only other
developers working on the same codebase), because it is secret.

If I instead participate in open source, I don't get paid (being paid
would be the exception). I have to come up to speed and up to a
quality level where my work is acceptable to the project. My work, if
it sees the light of day, can benefit many more people, and can
potentially be useful forever. Moreover, excellence in creation of
that work can benefit many people, forever, because anyone can see the
code.

If you use some kind of formula like

value=(utility for average user) x number of users x useful lifespan

then the open source contribution is clearly of more value than the
closed source work. OTOH, if you say value is what someone will pay
for a thing, then the closed source work is more valuable. This second
definition is what money encourages, a very circular little world.

I think it boils down to this: Money works for things where relative
wealth changes will take place. I will pay you to code to bring me
advantage over my neighbours. I might pay you to decrease my
neighbours' wealth relative to me, or even to decrease all our wealth,
but mine less so. But I wont pay you to raise everyone's absolute
wealth by a miniscule fraction. Which is what the open source
contribution does.

I think that value isn't actually relative where it matters; it's
absolute. It matters that I have a roof over my head, not that my roof
is bigger than my neighbours. I don't care if I have better health
care than other people, but I do care that if I get sick, I can be
helped. I need enough to eat, not more than everyone else.

If you focus on absolute wealth, you can notice than an absolute
increase of everyone's wealth is an increase of your wealth, even if
other people get more than you do in a relative sense.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From stefan.pernar at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 05:44:00 2008
From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:44:00 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214212001.02c85ab0@satx.rr.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<944947f20812141914y35763d43if8ef4891add21117@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214212001.02c85ab0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <944947f20812142144n39275d05vaccd3f7738c70b7e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> At 11:14 AM 12/15/2008 +0800, Stephan wrote:
>
>  from a perspective of Gold (aka real money)
>>
>
> Omg. Money is not a *thing*, it's a signifier, an operator; reifying it is
> a step backward into immobility and superstition.


Not sure I understand your point but in my Gold = money analogy I am
following Austrian economics and am lost in regards to your superstition
comment. What's more elusive: fiat currencies or gold coin?


> Since real wealth *is* increasing (O blessed extropy!), there does need to
> be a way to pump in more of the standard signifiers. But some rationality
> applied to the process would be desirable.
>

In its current form money does not represent wealth or value but debt.
Meaning once all debt is repaid there would be no money. The video posted
earlier explains that very well.

-- 
Stefan Pernar
Skype: Stefan.Pernar
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 15 07:13:04 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:13:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] warm plasma cloak
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081215011150.029fe8a8@satx.rr.com>

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/547404/


Newswise ? A detailed analysis of the 
measurements of five different satellites has 
revealed the existence of the warm plasma cloak, 
a new region of the magnetosphere, which is the 
invisible shield of magnetic fields and 
electrically charged particles that surround and 
protect Earth from the onslaught of the solar wind.

The study was conducted by a team of scientists 
headed by Charles ?Rick? Chappell, research 
professor of physics and director of the Dyer 
Observatory at Vanderbilt University and 
published this fall in the space physics section 
of the Journal of Geophysical Research.

The northern and southern polar lights ? aurora 
borealis and aurora australis ? are the only 
parts of the magnetosphere that are visible, but 
it is a critical part of Earth?s space environment.

?Although it is invisible, the magnetosphere has 
an impact on our everyday lives,? Chappell said. 
?For example, solar storms agitate the 
magnetosphere in ways that can induce power 
surges in the electrical grid that trigger black 
outs, interfere with radio transmissions and mess 
up GPS signals. Charged particles in the 
magnetosphere can also damage the electronics in 
satellites and affect the temperature and motion of the upper atmosphere.?

The other regions of the magnetosphere have been 
known for some time. Chappell and his colleagues 
pieced together a ?natural cycle of energization? 
that accelerates the low-energy ions that 
originate from Earth?s atmosphere up to the 
higher energy levels characteristic of the 
different regions in the magnetosphere. This 
brought the existence of the new region into focus.

The warm plasma cloak is a tenuous region that 
starts on the night side of the planet and wraps 
around the dayside but then gradually fades away 
on the afternoon side. As a result, it only 
reaches about three-quarters of the way around 
the planet. It is fed by low-energy charged 
particles that are lifted into space over Earth?s 
poles, carried behind the Earth in its magnetic 
tail but then jerked around 180 degrees by a kink 
in the magnetic fields that boosts the particles 
back toward Earth in a region called the plasma sheet.

Chappell and his colleagues ? Mathew M. 
Huddleston from Trevecca University, Tom Moore 
and Barbara Giles from the National Aeronautics 
and Space Administration, and Dominique Delcourt 
from the Centre d?etude des Environments 
Terrestre et Planetaires, Observatoire de 
Saint-Maur in France ? used satellite 
observations to measure the properties of the 
ions in different locations in the magnetosphere.

An important part of their analysis was a 
computer program developed by Delcourt that can 
predict how ions move in the earth?s magnetic 
field. ?These motions are very complicated. Ions 
spiral around in the magnetic field. They bounce 
and drift. A lot of things can happen, but 
Dominic developed a mathematical code that can 
predict where they go,? said Chappell.

When the researchers applied this computer code 
to the satellite observations some patterns 
became clear for the first time. One was the 
prediction of how ions could move upward from the 
ionosphere to form the warm plasma cloak.

?We have recognized all the other regions for a 
long time, but the plasma cloak was a fuzzy thing 
in the background which we didn?t have enough 
information about to make it stand out. When we 
got enough pieces, there it was!? said Chappell.





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Database version: 5.11331
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 09:35:04 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:35:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812150135l14b020ffx83edcf0b3b383d26@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 4:10 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Barbara Lamar the tax lawyer comments:
>
> I don't buy Paul Grignon's statement that if interest is charged on loans of
> "real" money, the bankers end up with all the money. This would only be true
> (even on a theoretical level) if the banks could loan money in excess of
> their reserves.
>


Errr, I don't want to criticize your better half, but that is exactly
what the banks did.

The banks lent out many multiples of their reserves during the bubble
period. Money was lent, assets were bought and went up in 'price', so
more money was lent based on higher valuations, etc, etc, It was twin
bubbles of asset value and debt. When the bubble burst, the banks had
to go to the government and explain that they had given away billions
and now they couldn't get their money back because the assets had
collapsed in value.

See  The New Capitalism
   * Robert Peston    8 Dec 2008

A new capitalism will emerge from the rubble.
Please click here [6 page pdf]
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/newcapitalism.pdf>
for my thoughts on how we got into this mess and what the re-made
economy will look like.
-------------------------------------


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 10:19:17 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:19:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214212001.02c85ab0@satx.rr.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<944947f20812141914y35763d43if8ef4891add21117@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214212001.02c85ab0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812150219j2e724a3bi6d3010469360a507@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Since real wealth *is* increasing (O blessed extropy!), there does need to
> be a way to pump in more of the standard signifiers.

Really? Signifiers being totally "liquid" by definition, and purely
virtual anyway these days, the face value should well be able to
adjust conveniently in connection with the real wealth available
and/or that they represent.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Dec 15 11:34:15 2008
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:34:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1635.12.77.168.213.1229340855.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


> Barbara Lamar the tax lawyer comments: [snip]
>
> 1. Change corporation law so that management and shareholders can be
> held liable for damage done to other persons by the corporation.
[snip]

Thank you, Barbara.  :)

Shouldn't shareholders should have liability *if* they have authority, which
generally they do not seem to?

Perhaps I'm seeing the position of shareholder incorrectly.  I am sensitive to the
"responsibility without any authority" trap. It usually means someone else makes the
bad decisions and I take the rap. :( If things go well, someone else gets the
thanks. Kinda like being a parent! ;)

Regards,
MB





From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Dec 15 16:36:58 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:36:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Steven Chu?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081215011150.029fe8a8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081215011150.029fe8a8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1229359355_35887@s6.cableone.net>

Dr. Steven Chu is the designated head of DoE.

Any of you know him?  Any one degree of separation?

Keith



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec 15 17:40:02 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:40:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com><9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com><1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net><E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>
	<1229193161_23467@s8.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com> Wrote:

> The current best estimates are in the $350 billion range.  Of course that
> assumes the project were done in a more permissive legal environment, say
> China.  The big ticket items are either a partial space elevator (rockets
> up to the end about one earth diameter out) or a 4 GW laser for the pop up
> and push transport system.  Both need to be sized to about a million tons
> per year if power sats are going to replace fossil fuels over a 30 year
> span.  I don't have a figure on the partial elevator, but the laser
> transport system (under $100/kg to GEO) looks like $40 billion for the
> lasers (at $10/watt) $20 billion for the mirrors in GEO and $20 billion
> for the pop up rockets that loft 50 ton laser stages to 260 miles.

The trouble is that we live in a era where a simple attack helicopter or
even a Tom Cruise movie can end up costing two or three times what was
predicted, and you're talking about Space Elevators (made of who knows what)
and continuous duty 4GW Lasers. Is it any wonder that few can take your
financial estimates seriously?

Everybody thought the Space Shuttle would make it cheap to get into space,
it's reusable after, but those estimates were off by at least an order of
magnitude. We'd have been better off sticking with the 40 year old Saturn 5.

I don't think anybody will be convinced by paper and pencil stuff, you need
actual hardware that produces usable energy where the path to scaling up the
pilot plant is clear, and that will take many many billions of dollars.

> Well, if you or anyone else who groks high school physics and can follow
> the math wants to help reduced the skepticism, try going over the figures
> in the web sites I have posted here.

The problem is not physics, the problem is economics.

  John K Clark









From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 15 18:26:26 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:26:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0812150135l14b020ffx83edcf0b3b383d26@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com>
	<ee50357e0812150135l14b020ffx83edcf0b3b383d26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081215121828.02dd9b08@satx.rr.com>

At 09:35 AM 12/15/2008 +0000, BillK wrote:

> > Barbara Lamar the tax lawyer comments:
>
> > I don't buy Paul Grignon's statement that if interest is charged 
> on loans of
> > "real" money, the bankers end up with all the money. This would 
> only be true
> > (even on a theoretical level) if the banks could loan money in excess of
> > their reserves.

>...that is exactly what the banks did.
>
>The banks lent out many multiples of their reserves during the bubble
>period.

Oy, wake up there at the back!

Notice the framing word "real" up there?

Barbara adds now for the context-challenged:

< "Real" money in this context is money that represents past or 
present value, as opposed to "bogus" money that represents only 
future value. I was referring to the latter part of the video where 
Grignon talks about moving to a sustainable economy. He argued that a 
government (presumably a central bank) should own the lending 
industry. At the heart of his case for government ownership was his 
claim that, even if loans were made on "real" money, privately owned 
banks would end up with all the money via the process of earning 
interest on loans. He does not offer any proof for this in the video, 
and it doesn't make sense to me. As long as a lender does not enjoy a 
legal monopoly, there is no reason that charging interest on loans 
would result in the lender ending up with all the money, any more 
than charging rent for the use of land results in the lessor owning 
all the land.>

She adds in reply to MB's post:

<Sorry, no time to reply in the depth your question deserves, but 
briefly, part of the problem with current corporation law is that 
investors approach buying stocks rather like buying lottery tickets. 
Based on what I have observed of investor and broker behavior, most 
investors don't know very much about the companies in which they 
invest. I doubt that any more than one in a thousand even bothers to 
take a quick look at a company's annual reports before buying that 
company's securities, especially when investing via a fund.

Surely, the degree of liability should be greater for the people 
directly in control of a corporation (I am using the term corporation 
here to include all forms of limited liability entities), but passive 
shareholders should bear some responsibility for the harm done 
through the use of their money. Under present law, they risk only the 
amount they have invested. >

Damien Broderick








E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
Database version: 5.11340
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 19:28:14 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:28:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
	<E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>
	<1229193161_23467@s8.cableone.net>
	<FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <580930c20812151128p73aff1dt54fc74e8f6a9183c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 6:40 PM, John K Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The trouble is that we live in a era where a simple attack helicopter or
> even a Tom Cruise movie can end up costing two or three times what was
> predicted, and you're talking about Space Elevators (made of who knows what)
> and continuous duty 4GW Lasers. Is it any wonder that few can take your
> financial estimates seriously?

Even if it were the case, what's the big deal? How was the accounting
of the Manhattan Project, or even the Apollo Project?

But speaking of here and now, how many billion did the adventure in
Iraq cost? 600? 900? What about some fancy military megaprojects aimed
at more or less improbable  scenarios? I am not moralising here, I
simply take those as examples where dividends, if any, have been very
disappointing, including from a political or military point of view,
without any big fuss being made of it.

Our societies are perfectly capable of wasting enormous amounts of
money against very dubious returns (at a private as opposed to public
level, the dot-com bubble comes immediately to mind). The problem is
its growing inability in investing in breakthroughs, the reasons of
which are IMHO more cultural and structural than economic.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 19:36:20 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:36:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081215121828.02dd9b08@satx.rr.com>
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com>
	<ee50357e0812150135l14b020ffx83edcf0b3b383d26@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081215121828.02dd9b08@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812151136i75b24a51pc774ba5532a33b77@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>
> Barbara adds
> "Real" money in this context is money that represents past or
> present value, as opposed to "bogus" money that represents only
> future value. I was referring to the latter part of the video where
> Grignon talks about moving to a sustainable economy. He argued that a
> government (presumably a central bank) should own the lending
> industry. At the heart of his case for government ownership was his
> claim that, even if loans were made on "real" money, privately owned
> banks would end up with all the money via the process of earning
> interest on loans.

Apparently Grignon was referring to real estate where the bank lends
money to buy property. ('Real' value at the time, even though everyone
involved was lying about the valuations). The bank gets their fees and
the ongoing interest and eventually when the property is sold, the
bank gets the capital back. Especially when foreclosure happens and
the bank gets the property instead.  So long as the music keeps
playing nobody loses. But now the music has stopped. The 'real'
present value at the time of the loan has evaporated into thin air.
The borrower loses his property *and* the bank loses its capital.
Unfortunately the bank lent its capital 10, 20 or even 30 times over.
So the banks have accordingly lost many times their capital reserves.

(As an aside, some people have doubts that the banks have declared all
their losses to date. The suspicion is that off-balance sheet losses
are being hidden in case the panic gets even worse).

BillK


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Dec 15 21:44:55 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:44:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
	<E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>
	<1229193161_23467@s8.cableone.net>
	<FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1229377833_38404@s6.cableone.net>

At 10:40 AM 12/15/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com> Wrote:
>
>>The current best estimates are in the $350 billion range.  Of course that
>>assumes the project were done in a more permissive legal environment, say
>>China.  The big ticket items are either a partial space elevator (rockets
>>up to the end about one earth diameter out) or a 4 GW laser for the pop up
>>and push transport system.  Both need to be sized to about a million tons
>>per year if power sats are going to replace fossil fuels over a 30 year
>>span.  I don't have a figure on the partial elevator, but the laser
>>transport system (under $100/kg to GEO) looks like $40 billion for the
>>lasers (at $10/watt) $20 billion for the mirrors in GEO and $20 billion
>>for the pop up rockets that loft 50 ton laser stages to 260 miles.
>
>The trouble is that we live in a era where a simple attack helicopter or
>even a Tom Cruise movie can end up costing two or three times what was
>predicted, and you're talking about Space Elevators (made of who knows what)
>and continuous duty 4GW Lasers. Is it any wonder that few can take your
>financial estimates seriously?

If you end a space elevator an earth diameter out, current materials 
will do the job.  "g" is down to .25 and that makes a huge difference.

CW solid state welding lasers you can buy *today* at $10/watt.  I 
can't see any reason that buying a million 4 kW units should be more 
expensive than buying one.

>Everybody thought the Space Shuttle would make it cheap to get into space,
>it's reusable after, but those estimates were off by at least an order of
>magnitude. We'd have been better off sticking with the 40 year old Saturn 5.

Most people who knew how the program had been compromised for 
political reasons knew it was going to be bad from the point they 
picked solid rockets.  They could have built a fly back stage with F1 
engines but they didn't.

>I don't think anybody will be convinced by paper and pencil stuff, you need
>actual hardware that produces usable energy where the path to scaling up the
>pilot plant is clear, and that will take many many billions of dollars.

Waste of money to try it out.  If you build *ONE* pilot GW power sat 
using current rockets it will cost as much as building the entire 
transport and production line.  There are times, and this is one of 
them, that just building the whole thing is less expensive than 
trying it small.  The physics of power sats just does not work trying 
to do it small.  (At least not for microwave transmission.)

>>Well, if you or anyone else who groks high school physics and can follow
>>the math wants to help reduced the skepticism, try going over the figures
>>in the web sites I have posted here.
>
>The problem is not physics, the problem is economics.

You have to start with the physics.  How else can you do the economics?

What assumptions do you want to use?

Keith



From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 03:32:31 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:32:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812151128p73aff1dt54fc74e8f6a9183c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
	<E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>
	<1229193161_23467@s8.cableone.net>
	<FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>
	<580930c20812151128p73aff1dt54fc74e8f6a9183c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240812151932s1f5661deg239454265e92cb6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> Our societies are perfectly capable of wasting enormous amounts of
> money against very dubious returns (at a private as opposed to public
> level, the dot-com bubble comes immediately to mind). The problem is
> its growing inability in investing in breakthroughs, the reasons of
> which are IMHO more cultural and structural than economic.
>

Anyone know who's building Dubai?  The group who builds islands shaped like
palm trees so they will look cool on google maps might find the idea of
power satellites "neat" enough to write a check with a dozen zeros...

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/08/dubai090806_600x600.jpg
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 11:55:06 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:55:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 3:33 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> I was referring to the toon on banking you url'd. (It had its moments, when
> it wasn't falling into the bad old habit of showing bad guys named Goldsmith
> and top-hatted bankers with hooked noses--shades of Der St?rmer.)

BTW, isn't "goldsmith" the noun of a job, in English, from which in
the cartoon the banker's profession allegedly arose?

"Miller" or "Taylor" or "Fisher" would have hardly cut it...

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From scerir at libero.it  Tue Dec 16 17:09:18 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:09:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
References: <1934.31302.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081214220919.02c6a678@satx.rr.com><ee50357e0812150135l14b020ffx83edcf0b3b383d26@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081215121828.02dd9b08@satx.rr.com>
	<ee50357e0812151136i75b24a51pc774ba5532a33b77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001401c95fa1$08c03f40$e40a4797@archimede>

> (As an aside, some people have doubts that the banks have declared all
> their losses to date. The suspicion is that off-balance sheet losses
> are being hidden in case the panic gets even worse).
> 
> BillK

It is perhaps even more interesting to know
the total, global amount of the 'toxic' assets.
Since those 'losses' are strictly related
to these 'toxic' assets (via the so called
'mark-to-market', and other procedures).

Needless to say, the mirabilis principium
called 'originate [financial products]  
and distribute [financial products]' in few
months became something like 'originate [risks]
and distribute [risks]' all over the world.
With the obvious consequences.

Now, while there is some agreement that
the global quantity of derivatives is
between 500 and 600 US$ trillions (more
than 10 times the output of the entire
planet) nobody knows how many of those
derivatives are 'toxic' or 'distressed'.

An unofficial estimate (more or less
secretly given by a wellknown firm)
says that the 'toxic' or 'distressed' 
assets are around 50 US$ trillions.

Now, if that is true, we can understand
why - as Bohr used to say - it's only
smoke and mirrors.  


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 16 17:38:09 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:38:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Power satellites (was:MIT boffins crack fusion plasma snag)
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com><9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com><1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net><E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer><1229193161_23467@s8.cableone.net><FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>
	<1229377833_38404@s6.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <5F85E170BA86403BAFE7CBD3AAAFF3E7@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>

> CW solid state welding lasers you can buy *today* at $10/watt.

A solid state Laser at that price? I'm not saying it's untrue but to me that
price seems pretty low even for a CO2 Laser. I'd be interested where you got
that figure.

> They could have built a fly back stage [for the space shuttle] with F1
> engines but they didn't.

F1 engines were never designed to be reusable. And I think if the original
design with the manned fly back stage had been built the Space Shuttle would
have been an even bigger boondoggle than it is. Each launch vehicle would
have been even more expensive and complex, it would take even more time
between turnaround flights, and there would be 2 different manned crews per
flight with twice the probability of a catastrophe resulting in a multi year
shutdown in the entire program.

> it was going to be bad from the point they picked solid rockets.

In retrospect I think the Space Shuttle was doomed to failure the instant
they insisted it be manned when there was no scientific, military, or
economic reason to do so. They wanted people on it because they thought it
would be better public relations, but even that didn't work. People have
been going to low Earth orbit for nearly half a century and it just doesn't
have the WOW factor for the taxpayers that it once had.

> There are times, and this is one of them, that just building the whole
> thing is less expensive than trying it small.  The physics of power sats
> just does not work trying to do it small.

That was exactly my original point, and if you and I are right about that
and it's just in the nature of power satellites that you can't build a
realistic small prototype then they will never be built; or at least not
built before the Singularity, after that all bets are off.

> What assumptions do you want to use?

I assume power satellites are physically possible. I do not assume they make
economic or environmental sense; and if you really can't know if the idea is
any good until you've built the entire astronomically expensive thing then
it makes no political sense either.

 John K Clark








From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Dec 16 19:17:44 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:17:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power satellites (was:MIT boffins crack fusion plasma
 snag)
In-Reply-To: <5F85E170BA86403BAFE7CBD3AAAFF3E7@MyComputer>
References: <580930c20812061424v302b4c63l1aaa1292569fcdbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812081129o7c63514cwa92da22f9b5a6484@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812081301s1213206fg7453d43f70d87245@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229143778_23462@S3.cableone.net>
	<E2A2EE0B1FE84B8896E12830630B6516@MyComputer>
	<1229193161_23467@s8.cableone.net>
	<FE8B54D610D84594B4E34AF2910AA1DE@MyComputer>
	<1229377833_38404@s6.cableone.net>
	<5F85E170BA86403BAFE7CBD3AAAFF3E7@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1229455402_44102@s6.cableone.net>

At 10:38 AM 12/16/2008, John K Clark wrote:
>"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>
>>CW solid state welding lasers you can buy *today* at $10/watt.
>
>A solid state Laser at that price? I'm not saying it's untrue but to me that
>price seems pretty low even for a CO2 Laser. I'd be interested where you got
>that figure.

Jordin Kare.  Google him.  Jordin showed a slide at a conference in 
October of a bank of 600W visible light semiconductor lasers that 
were being tested to power a tether climber.

snip

>>There are times, and this is one of them, that just building the whole
>>thing is less expensive than trying it small.  The physics of power sats
>>just does not work trying to do it small.
>
>That was exactly my original point, and if you and I are right about that
>and it's just in the nature of power satellites that you can't build a
>realistic small prototype then they will never be built; or at least not
>built before the Singularity, after that all bets are off.

You can build a prototype.  It just that it's no more expensive to 
set up a GW/day production facility than it is to build one multi GW 
prototype with existing rockets.  It is close to 100 times as 
expensive per satellite to build a prototype this way and you don't 
get anything with further use (such as low cost space transportation system).

If power sats are not built before the singularity, then the chances 
are they won't be built at all.  In fact, I think a 30 year project 
to build them will be truncated by the singularity and the physical 
state population collapse.

>>What assumptions do you want to use?
>
>I assume power satellites are physically possible. I do not assume they make
>economic or environmental sense; and if you really can't know if the idea is
>any good until you've built the entire astronomically expensive thing then
>it makes no political sense either.

If that's the way you feel about it--without doing the hard work of 
looking at a design to cost engineering effort--that's ok.  In which 
case, what do *you* propose to supply the cubic-mile-of-oil per year 
energy the human population needs to avoid famines and resource wars?

The next best seems to be some 10 to 20 thousand nuclear reactors.

Keith Henson 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 16 23:12:10 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:12:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>

I've already whined to one list member privately about the following 
problem, and he felt my best move at this point is to sacrifice a 
goat to the old gods. It might well be.

In the last day or so, my XP PC has been infected by the Trojans 
FakeAlert and Virtumonde. I asked Adware to deal with it, please, and 
the program chugged away, finding a bunch of nasty Things, then told 
me it had run into an unhandled exception and chugged some more 
before declaring that it hadn't found anything bad. Poor stupid thing.

So I clicked on the latest Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool 
and it said it couldn't open, go away. Wtf?!

I downloaded the program everyone seems to swear by, Spyware Doctor, 
for which luckily my wife has a paid subscription for several 
computers; it studiously examined every byte of my hard drive and 
found these two Trojans, then claimed to be deleted them 
successfully. Not so. They're still there beavering away, the 
bastards. I reran all these programs, of course, but nothing good came of it.

So--leaving aside sensible demands that I throw away my machine and 
get an Apple with open source software, or the like: can any of the 
cognoscenti here suggest a simplish way for me to rid my machine of 
these filthy beasts? I read about various ways to go into the 
registry and fool with the code, but I'm too inexperienced to dare 
that. And I'm reluctant to just back up as much as possible and scrub 
the disk out with soap&water because some programs don't reliably 
restore themselves when you try that (Dragon NaturallySpeaking, for 
example, refuses to recognize all its trained lexicon).

Any hints appreciated! And apologies for clogging up the list with this drivel.

Damien Broderick





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
Database version: 5.11350
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec 16 23:40:39 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:40:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812161540qd8d1078i954cdb444b229452@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> In the last day or so, my XP PC has been infected by the Trojans
> FakeAlert and Virtumonde.


Try:
<http://www.superantispyware.com/index.html>
and
<http://www.malwarebytes.org/>

(both have free versions)

It may be that your System Restore points are infected as well, but
wait and see before worrying about that.

BillK


From sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 16:17:34 2008
From: sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com (Belva Plain)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:17:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com> 
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU137-W10D031A6B39DA544656339CFF50@phx.gbl>



> BTW, isn't "goldsmith" the noun of a job, in English, from which in
> the cartoon the banker's profession allegedly arose?
> 
> "Miller" or "Taylor" or "Fisher" would have hardly cut it...
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Vaj
>

The legend goes that in medieval Europe, due to Catholic church restrictions
on the lending of money at interest--a practice condemned as "usury"--Jewish
goldsmiths were some of the only people who practiced moneylending. As a result,
the stereotype of the "Jewish moneylender" was born. Furthermore, Jews, who were
often given surnames on the basis of their occupational designations, were much more
likely to be named Goldsmith, or Goldfarb, or Goldberg, than people of other ethic
backgrounds. 

The negative association of Jews with moneylending and banking is long in the history of anti-semitism, ranging
from the character of Shylock to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And, of course,
hooked noses are anti-semitic shorthand for Jewish faces. 

Tom D   

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 17 04:05:40 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:05:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0812161540qd8d1078i954cdb444b229452@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
	<ee50357e0812161540qd8d1078i954cdb444b229452@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>

At 11:40 PM 12/16/2008 +0000, BillK wrote:

><http://www.malwarebytes.org/>

I downloaded this one, ran it, and damn if it didn't find the filthy 
pests and crush them like the bugs they are. Interestingly, once it 
said my PC was clean, I found that Windows Malicious Software Removal 
Tool opened up, and reported also that I was clean as a whistle. Not 
sure I believe any of them entirely, but for now I seem good to go. 
Thank you for this excellent advice, sir!

Damien Broderick 





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
Database version: 5.11350
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 05:15:36 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:15:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <BLU137-W10D031A6B39DA544656339CFF50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <321086.61496.qm@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Belva Plain <sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> The legend goes that in medieval Europe, due to Catholic
> church restrictions
> on the lending of money at interest--a practice condemned
> as "usury"--Jewish
> goldsmiths were some of the only people who practiced
> moneylending. As a result,
> the stereotype of the "Jewish moneylender" was
> born. Furthermore, Jews, who were
> often given surnames on the basis of their occupational
> designations, were much more
> likely to be named Goldsmith, or Goldfarb, or Goldberg,
> than people of other ethic
> backgrounds. 
> The negative association of Jews with moneylending and
> banking is long in the history of anti-semitism, ranging
> from the character of Shylock to the Protocols of the
> Elders of Zion. And, of course,
> hooked noses are anti-semitic shorthand for Jewish faces. 

Yet curiously during the middle ages, the Catholic church gave rise to the Knights-templar. An organization that had a rather colorful history including more than a little money-lending. Interestingly they were all uncircumcised non-semites of caucasian persuasion. When the Pope got jealous and started burning them at the stake, they fled several places one that was likely the Swiss Alps.  So let's not fix the blame, let's fix the problem. 

Stuart LaForge

"It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision." - Helen Keller



      


From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 05:49:22 2008
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:49:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


What is happening with students ??
I passed this girl with a C in an Astronomy for non-science majors class.
She calls me on my cell, demanding a B, saying she will go to the Dean if not satisfied.
She struggled all the semester and she is barely literate. She had problems in understanding 1.6 *10 =16. Seriously.
I was trying to be nice and I passed her with a decent grade.?
When I went back and I looked more carefully at her assignment I discovered that on 119 lines of her final paper worth 15 % of her grade 115 lines were copied from the internet word by word.
The other 4 didn't make sense and they were full of grammatical errors.
She did quote 105 lines but the remaining 14, that she claimed to be her own (how somebody can think to write a paper with about 10 % being their "own work "is another wonder of the Universe) are also word by word? copied but not quoted.
She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She want to go and debate this with my superiors.
What is going on in the minds of these students?
She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless arrogance.
?
?

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 10:05 PM

At 11:40 PM 12/16/2008 +0000, BillK wrote:

> <http://www.malwarebytes.org/>

I downloaded this one, ran it, and damn if it didn't find the filthy pests
and crush them like the bugs they are. Interestingly, once it said my PC was
clean, I found that Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool opened up, and
reported also that I was clean as a whistle. Not sure I believe any of them
entirely, but for now I seem good to go. Thank you for this excellent advice,
sir!

Damien Broderick 




E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
Database version: 5.11350
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 05:52:40 2008
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:52:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Money Games
In-Reply-To: <321086.61496.qm@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <980476.65242.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
> When the Pope got
> jealous and started burning them at the stake,

Actually this is a little inaccurate. What really happened was the Pope excommunicated them and the king of France started burning them at the stake, but that's all water under the bridge. Isn't it?

Stuart LaForge

"It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision." - Helen Keller




      


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 06:30:54 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:30:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550812162230p1d21e9ffm363e3d148e00cd36@mail.gmail.com>

Most universities have a student manual or policy webpage that explains
plagiarism (using someone else's work and presenting it as your own; that
is, without citing the source of the original words). Your student either
knows or should have known that what she was doing constitutes plagiarism.

In my classes, I give students who plagiarize a failing grade for the report
in which they plagiarized. In some cases, I fail them for the entire course.

Your student should be happy to have passed the class at all. I suggest that
you inform her that she has 2 choices: (a) accept the C grade, or (b)
challenge her grade with the Dean, in which case you will cite her
plagiarism and ask the Dean to expell her.

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:49 PM, giovanni santost
<santostasigio at yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> What is happening with students ??
> I passed this girl with a C in an Astronomy for non-science majors class.
> She calls me on my cell, demanding a B, saying she will go to the Dean if
> not satisfied.
> She struggled all the semester and she is barely literate. She had problems
> in understanding 1.6 *10 =16. Seriously.
> I was trying to be nice and I passed her with a decent grade.
> When I went back and I looked more carefully at her assignment I discovered
> that on 119 lines of her final paper worth 15 % of her grade 115 lines were
> copied from the internet word by word.
> The other 4 didn't make sense and they were full of grammatical errors.
> She did quote 105 lines but the remaining 14, that she claimed to be her
> own (how somebody can think to write a paper with about 10 % being their
> "own work "is another wonder of the Universe) are also word by word  copied
> but not quoted.
> She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and
> copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She
> want to go and debate this with my superiors.
> What is going on in the minds of these students?
> She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless
> arrogance.
>
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 12/16/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>* wrote:
>
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 10:05 PM
>
> At 11:40 PM 12/16/2008 +0000, BillK wrote:
>
> > <http://www.malwarebytes.org/>
>
> I downloaded this one, ran it, and damn if it didn't find the filthy pests
> and crush them like the bugs they are. Interestingly, once it said my PC was
> clean, I found that Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool opened up, and
> reported also that I was clean as a whistle. Not sure I believe any of them
> entirely, but for now I seem good to go. Thank you for this excellent advice,
> sir!
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
>
>
> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> Database version: 5.11350http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 06:40:43 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:10:43 +1030
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812162240y3320f8beucf22b906bc0fb136@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/17 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
>

Is anyone else seeing Damien's posts as an empty email with an
attachment containing the real text?

I think Windows XP is generally getting harder to maintain, due to
more sophisticated malware. Has anyone else noticed that  the
half-life of an XP install is getting shorter?

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 17 07:59:52 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:59:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812162240y3320f8beucf22b906bc0fb136@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812162240y3320f8beucf22b906bc0fb136@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081217015828.02571cc8@satx.rr.com>

At 05:10 PM 12/17/2008 +1030, Emlyn wrote:

>Is anyone else seeing Damien's posts as an empty email with an
>attachment containing the real text?

This is very disturbing news. But I don't think ExI chat allows 
attachments, does it? I just looked at the archive and my messages 
appear there in the usual format.

Damien Broderick






E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 08:26:20 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:26:20 +1100
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081217015828.02571cc8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812162240y3320f8beucf22b906bc0fb136@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081217015828.02571cc8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812170026o579944dbre74ec097036bccf9@mail.gmail.com>

I'm also seeing Damien's recent posts as a blank message with a txt
file attachment. I'm using gmail to read the list.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 17 08:39:21 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 02:39:21 -0600
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30812170026o579944dbre74ec097036bccf9@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812162240y3320f8beucf22b906bc0fb136@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081217015828.02571cc8@satx.rr.com>
	<f21c22e30812170026o579944dbre74ec097036bccf9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081217023624.02548cd0@satx.rr.com>

At 07:26 PM 12/17/2008 +1100, Stathis wrote:

>I'm also seeing Damien's recent posts as a blank message with a txt
>file attachment. I'm using gmail to read the list.

Are these only the ones that have started adding at the end

"E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor" ?

I'll try to turn that off for a while.

Damien Broderick



From eschatoon at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 09:07:53 2008
From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:07:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90812170107i2448d49bi8ae600982f3919cc@mail.gmail.com>

Take example from Indiana Jones - perhaps she just wants to grab your
attention;-)

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 6:49 AM, giovanni santost
<santostasigio at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> What is happening with students ??
> I passed this girl with a C in an Astronomy for non-science majors class.
> She calls me on my cell, demanding a B, saying she will go to the Dean if
> not satisfied.
> She struggled all the semester and she is barely literate. She had problems
> in understanding 1.6 *10 =16. Seriously.
> I was trying to be nice and I passed her with a decent grade.
> When I went back and I looked more carefully at her assignment I discovered
> that on 119 lines of her final paper worth 15 % of her grade 115 lines were
> copied from the internet word by word.
> The other 4 didn't make sense and they were full of grammatical errors.
> She did quote 105 lines but the remaining 14, that she claimed to be her own
> (how somebody can think to write a paper with about 10 % being their "own
> work "is another wonder of the Universe) are also word by word  copied but
> not quoted.
> She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and
> copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She
> want to go and debate this with my superiors.
> What is going on in the minds of these students?
> She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless
> arrogance.
>
>
> --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 10:05 PM
>
> At 11:40 PM 12/16/2008 +0000, BillK wrote:
>
>> <http://www.malwarebytes.org/>
>
> I downloaded this one, ran it, and damn if it didn't find the filthy pests
> and crush them like the bugs they are. Interestingly, once it said my PC was
> clean, I found that Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool opened up, and
> reported also that I was clean as a whistle. Not sure I believe any of them
> entirely, but for now I seem good to go. Thank you for this excellent
> advice,
> sir!
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
>
>
> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> Database version: 5.11350
> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



-- 
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco


From dagonweb at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 09:09:22 2008
From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:09:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bf3acbfc0812170109q10c2c8b5hbd56674358cbce52@mail.gmail.com>

>
> What is happening with students ??
> I passed this girl with a C in an Astronomy for non-science majors class.
> She calls me on my cell, demanding a B, saying she will go to the Dean if
> not satisfied.
> She struggled all the semester and she is barely literate. She had problems
> in understanding 1.6 *10 =16. Seriously.
> I was trying to be nice and I passed her with a decent grade.
> When I went back and I looked more carefully at her assignment I discovered
> that on 119 lines of her final paper worth 15 % of her grade 115 lines were
> copied from the internet word by word.
> The other 4 didn't make sense and they were full of grammatical errors.
> She did quote 105 lines but the remaining 14, that she claimed to be her
> own (how somebody can think to write a paper with about 10 % being their
> "own work "is another wonder of the Universe) are also word by word  copied
> but not quoted.
> She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and
> copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She
> want to go and debate this with my superiors.
> What is going on in the minds of these students?
> She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless
> arrogance.
>


I am seeing some shifts but nothing like what you describe. I am studying
now and am surrounded by
young people - on the one hand the curriulum is lighter than in the 80s and
90s, but the complexity, pacing
and required selfmanagement is seriously steeper. Maybe that's europe.

What's described above would be fraud at my school and cause for dismissal.
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From dagonweb at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 09:16:05 2008
From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:16:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90812170107i2448d49bi8ae600982f3919cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1fa8c3b90812170107i2448d49bi8ae600982f3919cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf3acbfc0812170116r1d2dc087kd96bad4c28f21e5b@mail.gmail.com>

> Take example from Indiana Jones - perhaps she just wants to grab your
attention ;-)

Good theory senore Prisco!

Did she stand really close when she was making her case? Distinct perfume?
Did  she use the
words "*I'll do anything if..*." ? If so queue cheap 70s elevator music and
lock your office.
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 09:36:33 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:36:33 +1100
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081217023624.02548cd0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812162240y3320f8beucf22b906bc0fb136@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081217015828.02571cc8@satx.rr.com>
	<f21c22e30812170026o579944dbre74ec097036bccf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081217023624.02548cd0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812170136g2ae6cebel5e2ae340a422bd14@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/17 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> At 07:26 PM 12/17/2008 +1100, Stathis wrote:
>
>> I'm also seeing Damien's recent posts as a blank message with a txt
>> file attachment. I'm using gmail to read the list.
>
> Are these only the ones that have started adding at the end
>
> "E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor" ?
>
> I'll try to turn that off for a while.

Yes: this last post came through OK. I think it must have something to
do with Gmail since I just checked the mail program on my iPhone and
it shows all your posts normally.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 09:39:38 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:39:38 +0000
Subject: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081217023624.02548cd0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081214184410.02b18998@satx.rr.com>
	<977774.99979.qm@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081214202602.02db4a98@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20812160355n389415c4r6cfd184bec051a39@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081216165930.02919190@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812162240y3320f8beucf22b906bc0fb136@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081217015828.02571cc8@satx.rr.com>
	<f21c22e30812170026o579944dbre74ec097036bccf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081217023624.02548cd0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812170139m78c521f8ge835759908f4a14f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Are these only the ones that have started adding at the end
>
> "E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor" ?
>
> I'll try to turn that off for a while.
>


Yes, but you don't have to turn off the Spyware Doctor message checking.
Spyware doctor has an option to add the signature "E-mail message
checked by Spyware Doctor" to your message. Just untick this
advertising option.
(The problem is caused by the way Spyware Doctor rewrites your message
to add the signature).


Back to Trojans, now.
It is common nowadays for trojans and viruses to attempt to either
disable antivirus and scanning software, or hide from them by
pretending to be legal software. That's why having a selection of
scanners is a good idea. The trojan might not have been able to
disable *all* of them.

Running the scanner again after it has done a cleanup is also a good
idea. Some trojans appear to hide underneath other trojans.


Best wishes, BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 11:30:27 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:30:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0812170116r1d2dc087kd96bad4c28f21e5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1fa8c3b90812170107i2448d49bi8ae600982f3919cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812170116r1d2dc087kd96bad4c28f21e5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812170330s1e0646bbva2d5465cfc80beac@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Dagon Gmail <dagonweb at gmail.com> wrote:
> If so queue cheap 70s elevator music and
> lock your office.

But remember to videorecord your entire encounter and to file a sexual
harassment and corruption attempt complaint against her first thing
the next morning... :-)

This should take her off your back for good.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 17 12:09:06 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:09:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] power satellites
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1229495464.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <41222.37765.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Keith wrote:

"If that's the way you feel about it--without doing the hard work of 
looking at a design to cost engineering effort--that's ok.  In which 
case, what do *you* propose to supply the cubic-mile-of-oil per year 
energy the human population needs to avoid famines and resource wars?

The next best seems to be some 10 to 20 thousand nuclear reactors."

Well, I'd reckon the most feasible solution is the combination of a couple of dozen small partial solutions. The problem with the powersat solution is that it requires one big, solid financial commitment that must be reliably maintained until it is seen through to completion. To avoid Space Shuttle/International Waste of Space Station/ anything the USAF has commissioned in the past few decades/ anything the UK military has commissioned since 1980 problems, you need to avoid having design changes and major shifts of focus half way through.

Few bodies can afford the $350 billion price tag by themselves. Even if the US govt did back it, there would be a moderate chance of the next set of guys voted in either messing around with it or cancelling it. Big international projects like ITER and some ESA projects have shown that multinational projects can succeed, but it takes quite a few years of negotiation for everyone to agree on the share they're paying for, and where the major construction work is done.

So, without the single mega-project how do we get enough energy? Well, there are a lot of small partial solutions, many of which can be innovated by a single country, and when it is shown to succeed others can copy. Nuclear fission may work - the pebble-bed designs of South Africa may offer a way to burn the world's plutonium stockpile while producing small-scale needs, and didn't someone mention on this list a Japanese company's design for a reactor suitable for a community as small as 2000 people?

Market interference by governments could help - eg a requirement for utilities to buy a certain percentage of their energy from certain sources, this has worked for German solar power. Politicians would love this because it's not a direct tax that people would notice, it would just gently shove up people's utility bills (which get increased every year by the power companies anyway, regardless of general inflation rates) in a way the voters may just shrug their shoulders about. It provides an incentive to improve power generation technology through private sector investment.

Increasing the energy efficiency of infrastructure can help, and given the current rhetoric for spending our way out of recession by investing in infrastructure I can see this being sold politically - investing in US railways to ship US agricultural produce to world markets while using less oil will help keep the world fed while spending money now on employing workers.

Governments making a token gesture to public appeals to raise foreign aid could use their extra funding to invest in agricultural improvements in poor countries which minimise fossil fuel use.

I could keep going on, and mention funding OTEC for Hawaii and then exporting it around the globe, new transport alternatives, all the different solar/hydro/geothermal schemes, all the biotech schemes, and the rest, but there are lot of things that can ameliorate the problem. None of them will solve the problem single-handedly. Most won't even solve the problem even in combination with one other technology. However, given the combination of technologies and social policies and wise investment, there are many routes to success.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for solar powersats to be a reality - I have a great love for schemes involving space, and deeply desire truly low-cost launches to orbit. The power satellite industry would form a colossal market that would force the price of space access down dramatically, and in doing so revolutionise our civilisation. I just wish there was a way of selling this that didn't seem too far beyond what projects we see today.

Tom


      


From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 16:20:43 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:20:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] power satellites
In-Reply-To: <41222.37765.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.33.1229495464.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<41222.37765.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812170820u172dc12bsf88648c43af30303@mail.gmail.com>

Tom, I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation.  Keith is
talking about the peak oil and consequent energy crisis that the world is
about to enter into.  I share your skepticism about the political
feasability of a number of megaprojects, but just like the current economic
crisis has compelled the government to take actions that just six months ago
were totally unfeasable; I believe things are quickly going to come to a
head and whereby now such programs like what Keith and others are proposing
seem radical, very shortly they're not going to seem radical *enough*.

Check out this document:
http://spacesolarpower.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/final-sbsp-interim-assessment-release-01.pdf

It has some interesting data.

*Kevin*

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:09 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Keith wrote:
>
> "If that's the way you feel about it--without doing the hard work of
> looking at a design to cost engineering effort--that's ok.  In which
> case, what do *you* propose to supply the cubic-mile-of-oil per year
> energy the human population needs to avoid famines and resource wars?
>
> The next best seems to be some 10 to 20 thousand nuclear reactors."
>
> Well, I'd reckon the most feasible solution is the combination of a couple
> of dozen small partial solutions. The problem with the powersat solution is
> that it requires one big, solid financial commitment that must be reliably
> maintained until it is seen through to completion. To avoid Space
> Shuttle/International Waste of Space Station/ anything the USAF has
> commissioned in the past few decades/ anything the UK military has
> commissioned since 1980 problems, you need to avoid having design changes
> and major shifts of focus half way through.
>
> Few bodies can afford the $350 billion price tag by themselves. Even if the
> US govt did back it, there would be a moderate chance of the next set of
> guys voted in either messing around with it or cancelling it. Big
> international projects like ITER and some ESA projects have shown that
> multinational projects can succeed, but it takes quite a few years of
> negotiation for everyone to agree on the share they're paying for, and where
> the major construction work is done.
>
> So, without the single mega-project how do we get enough energy? Well,
> there are a lot of small partial solutions, many of which can be innovated
> by a single country, and when it is shown to succeed others can copy.
> Nuclear fission may work - the pebble-bed designs of South Africa may offer
> a way to burn the world's plutonium stockpile while producing small-scale
> needs, and didn't someone mention on this list a Japanese company's design
> for a reactor suitable for a community as small as 2000 people?
>
> Market interference by governments could help - eg a requirement for
> utilities to buy a certain percentage of their energy from certain sources,
> this has worked for German solar power. Politicians would love this because
> it's not a direct tax that people would notice, it would just gently shove
> up people's utility bills (which get increased every year by the power
> companies anyway, regardless of general inflation rates) in a way the voters
> may just shrug their shoulders about. It provides an incentive to improve
> power generation technology through private sector investment.
>
> Increasing the energy efficiency of infrastructure can help, and given the
> current rhetoric for spending our way out of recession by investing in
> infrastructure I can see this being sold politically - investing in US
> railways to ship US agricultural produce to world markets while using less
> oil will help keep the world fed while spending money now on employing
> workers.
>
> Governments making a token gesture to public appeals to raise foreign aid
> could use their extra funding to invest in agricultural improvements in poor
> countries which minimise fossil fuel use.
>
> I could keep going on, and mention funding OTEC for Hawaii and then
> exporting it around the globe, new transport alternatives, all the different
> solar/hydro/geothermal schemes, all the biotech schemes, and the rest, but
> there are lot of things that can ameliorate the problem. None of them will
> solve the problem single-handedly. Most won't even solve the problem even in
> combination with one other technology. However, given the combination of
> technologies and social policies and wise investment, there are many routes
> to success.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'd love for solar powersats to be a reality - I have a
> great love for schemes involving space, and deeply desire truly low-cost
> launches to orbit. The power satellite industry would form a colossal market
> that would force the price of space access down dramatically, and in doing
> so revolutionise our civilisation. I just wish there was a way of selling
> this that didn't seem too far beyond what projects we see today.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 17:31:09 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:31:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812170931p30e6c113hdef1e33bdeef339f@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds to me that you need to stop being so nice.  Giving someone a C for a
plagerized paper is just encouraging the practice.

I know there is a lot of pressure in our colleges and universities, but who
is left putting on the pressure for academic standards?

*Kevin*

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:49 PM, giovanni santost
<santostasigio at yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> What is happening with students ??
> I passed this girl with a C in an Astronomy for non-science majors class.
> She calls me on my cell, demanding a B, saying she will go to the Dean if
> not satisfied.
> She struggled all the semester and she is barely literate. She had problems
> in understanding 1.6 *10 =16. Seriously.
> I was trying to be nice and I passed her with a decent grade.
> When I went back and I looked more carefully at her assignment I discovered
> that on 119 lines of her final paper worth 15 % of her grade 115 lines were
> copied from the internet word by word.
> The other 4 didn't make sense and they were full of grammatical errors.
> She did quote 105 lines but the remaining 14, that she claimed to be her
> own (how somebody can think to write a paper with about 10 % being their
> "own work "is another wonder of the Universe) are also word by word  copied
> but not quoted.
> She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and
> copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She
> want to go and debate this with my superiors.
> What is going on in the minds of these students?
> She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless
> arrogance.
>
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 12/16/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>* wrote:
>
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 10:05 PM
>
> At 11:40 PM 12/16/2008 +0000, BillK wrote:
>
> > <http://www.malwarebytes.org/>
>
> I downloaded this one, ran it, and damn if it didn't find the filthy pests
> and crush them like the bugs they are. Interestingly, once it said my PC was
> clean, I found that Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool opened up, and
> reported also that I was clean as a whistle. Not sure I believe any of them
> entirely, but for now I seem good to go. Thank you for this excellent advice,
> sir!
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
>
>
> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> Database version: 5.11350http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Dec 17 18:21:52 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:21:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>

Have you ever watched a TV show called "Bad Girls Club" (or something like
that).  The girls self-promote themselves to higher and higher status for
the number of acts accomplished that defy established social codes (like
cheating, physically abusing, lying, stealing, etc.)  While the show is
designed to look sexy and appeal to a girl's inner beast, it does claim to
have some moral caveat "Will living together help them move forward and turn
their lives around -- or will chaos rule?"    But this type of arrogant and
feisty behavioral signage is not new, social moms and dads have left an
indelible mark on their children's brains to behave badly.
 
I haven't taught school in a number of years, but were the student mine, I
would follow LaTorra suggest and move on it quickly.

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 

  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of giovanni
santost
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:49 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !




What is happening with students ??
I passed this girl with a C in an Astronomy for non-science majors class.
She calls me on my cell, demanding a B, saying she will go to the Dean if
not satisfied.
She struggled all the semester and she is barely literate. She had problems
in understanding 1.6 *10 =16. Seriously.
I was trying to be nice and I passed her with a decent grade. 
When I went back and I looked more carefully at her assignment I discovered
that on 119 lines of her final paper worth 15 % of her grade 115 lines were
copied from the internet word by word.
The other 4 didn't make sense and they were full of grammatical errors.
She did quote 105 lines but the remaining 14, that she claimed to be her own
(how somebody can think to write a paper with about 10 % being their "own
work "is another wonder of the Universe) are also word by word  copied but
not quoted.
She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and
copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She
want to go and debate this with my superiors.
What is going on in the minds of these students?
She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless
arrogance.
 
 

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:


From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] FakeAlert and Virtumonde
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 10:05 PM


At 11:40 PM 12/16/2008 +0000, BillK wrote:



> <http://www.malwarebytes.org/>



I downloaded this one, ran it, and damn if it didn't find the filthy pests

and crush them like the bugs they are. Interestingly, once it said my PC was

clean, I found that Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool opened up, and

reported also that I was clean as a whistle. Not sure I believe any of them

entirely, but for now I seem good to go. Thank you for this excellent
advice,

sir!



Damien Broderick 









E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)

Database version: 5.11350

http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 18:52:19 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:52:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] power satellites
In-Reply-To: <41222.37765.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.33.1229495464.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<41222.37765.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0812171052k3903b4derb087b198c2aed68c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:09 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Keith wrote:
>
> "If that's the way you feel about it--without doing the hard work of
> looking at a design to cost engineering effort--that's ok.  In which
> case, what do *you* propose to supply the cubic-mile-of-oil per year
> energy the human population needs to avoid famines and resource wars?
>
> The next best seems to be some 10 to 20 thousand nuclear reactors."
>
>Well, I'd reckon the most feasible solution is the combination of a couple of dozen small partial solutions.

How do you answer Dr. David MacKay's flat out statement that *no*
combination of small solutions will replace fossil fuels?

Or Dr. Guy McPherson's comment:

"I was a firm believer in solar, wind, and geothermal energy until a
few years ago, and I still believe they will help individuals. But no
combination of these "renewable" technologies will make a notable
difference at the level of 300 million Americans, much less the 6.5
people in the world.

>The problem with the powersat solution is that it requires one big, solid financial commitment that must be reliably maintained until it is seen through to completion. To avoid Space Shuttle/International Waste of Space Station/ anything the USAF has commissioned in the past few decades/ anything the UK military has commissioned since 1980 problems, you need to avoid having design changes and major shifts of focus half way through.

You have made an unwarranted assumption.  Where have I said the this
project should be done by the US or UK governments?  They could help
by reducing the risk that the energy market will go away before power
sats come on line, but doing it directly would probably be a disaster.
>
> Few bodies can afford the $350 billion price tag by themselves. Even if the US govt did back it, there would be a moderate chance of the next set of guys voted in either messing around with it or cancelling it.

Even if the government is not involved, there is good reason to get it
to the profit making point in less than 7 years anyway.

>Big international projects like ITER and some ESA projects have shown that multinational projects can succeed, but it takes quite a few years of negotiation for everyone to agree on the share they're paying for, and where the major construction work is done.
>
> So, without the single mega-project how do we get enough energy? Well, there are a lot of small partial solutions, many of which can be innovated by a single country, and when it is shown to succeed others can copy. Nuclear fission may work - the pebble-bed designs of South Africa may offer a way to burn the world's plutonium stockpile while producing small-scale needs, and didn't someone mention on this list a Japanese company's design for a reactor suitable for a community as small as 2000 people?

Reactors are the second best choice.  And I don't consider plutonium
made in reactors all that much of a problem, i.e., it's not easy to
make into bombs as the North Koreans showed.  But any source of
neutrons and depleted uranium can be used to make nearly pure Pu 239,
and that stuff *is* a hazard.

> Market interference by governments could help - eg a requirement for utilities to buy a certain percentage of their energy from certain sources, this has worked for German solar power. Politicians would love this because it's not a direct tax that people would notice, it would just gently shove up people's utility bills (which get increased every year by the power companies anyway, regardless of general inflation rates) in a way the voters may just shrug their shoulders about. It provides an incentive to improve power generation technology through private sector investment.

This is Charles Miller's proposal to fund power sats.  As long as
there is a demand for power at all, a proposal to sell the first 1% of
power sat output at a dollar a kWh provides a $320 billion pot of
money for some organization that builds them

> Increasing the energy efficiency of infrastructure can help, and given the current rhetoric for spending our way out of recession by investing in infrastructure I can see this being sold politically - investing in US railways to ship US agricultural produce to world markets while using less oil will help keep the world fed while spending money now on employing workers.

I don't think you understand the scope of the problem.  In a low
energy situation it is not obvious the US can feed it's own population
much less export food.

> Governments making a token gesture to public appeals to raise foreign aid could use their extra funding to invest in agricultural improvements in poor countries which minimise fossil fuel use.
>
> I could keep going on, and mention funding OTEC for Hawaii and then exporting it around the globe, new transport alternatives, all the different solar/hydro/geothermal schemes, all the biotech schemes, and the rest, but there are lot of things that can ameliorate the problem. None of them will solve the problem single-handedly. Most won't even solve the problem even in combination with one other technology. However, given the combination of technologies and social policies and wise investment, there are many routes to success.

I have put numbers on a vast power sat project.  Qualified people have
put numbers on various other sources and come up short.  You state
(more like faith) that there is a way to do it.  I think it falls on
you to show how David Mackay's work is incomplete.

The most likely route without some energy source as vast as SBSP is
famine and war to reduce the world wide population to 1-2 billion. At
that point the remaining population can live on renewable energy.

Of course, at some point the singularity comes along and all bets are
off--or at least it isn't our problem any more than opening cat food
cans is the cat's problem.

Keith

> Don't get me wrong, I'd love for solar powersats to be a reality - I have a great love for schemes involving space, and deeply desire truly low-cost launches to orbit. The power satellite industry would form a colossal market that would force the price of space access down dramatically, and in doing so revolutionise our civilisation. I just wish there was a way of selling this that didn't seem too far beyond what projects we see today.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From m1n3r2 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 19:09:17 2008
From: m1n3r2 at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tam=E1s_Pardy?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:09:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a7ef85a0812171109k40f8aee6n1fb250586d671700@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 6:49 AM, giovanni santost
<santostasigio at yahoo.com> wrote:
> What is happening with students ??
> She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and
> copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She
> want to go and debate this with my superiors.
> What is going on in the minds of these students?
> She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless
> arrogance.

I study to be an engineer and have a possible solution. We had a
course on writing stuff like publications etc. and there the teacher
(originally a journalist) ensured that we don't plagiarise by making
us handwrite two (or so) pages. Actually, I hated that (and wrote on
the computer, then copied it to paper:D) but it works! Plus if
somebody gave in a plagiarised essay, they would have to rewrite it,
or get a failed course...

Besides all that, I think respect is the cornerstone of human
interaction. And this has nothing to do with the quality of education
or the people involved. This is something to be learned at a very
young age (or should be, but is not currently taught at. say,
elementary school). There were subjects at high school I didn't like,
but at university one is given complete freedom to avoid those.
Therefore I don't understand the behavior of the student in question.

Tom


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Wed Dec 17 20:00:56 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:00:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <a7ef85a0812171109k40f8aee6n1fb250586d671700@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<a7ef85a0812171109k40f8aee6n1fb250586d671700@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30812171200w4df89ddg50a212815135e53c@mail.gmail.com>

My friend teaches biology (including the big intro/non-major class) at
Pepperdine and she makes all her students submit assignments typed and
submitted to her through turnitin.com, to check against both Internet
and other student's submission sources.  She makes it clear the first
day of class, that beyond the school's honor code rules (which it's
not her job to tell them), she will fail anyone who plagiarizes and
they will leave her class.  End of story.  Everyone (so far) has
obeyed.

While turnitin.com has its issues, apparently it is enough of a
deterrent to work for her.

PJ

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Tam?s Pardy <m1n3r2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 6:49 AM, giovanni santost
> <santostasigio at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What is happening with students ??
>> She is fighting with me claiming I never mentioned they could not paste and
>> copy to do their semester project and that she didn't do anything wrong. She
>> want to go and debate this with my superiors.
>> What is going on in the minds of these students?
>> She is not the only one with this sense of the entitlement and reckless
>> arrogance.
>
> I study to be an engineer and have a possible solution. We had a
> course on writing stuff like publications etc. and there the teacher
> (originally a journalist) ensured that we don't plagiarise by making
> us handwrite two (or so) pages. Actually, I hated that (and wrote on
> the computer, then copied it to paper:D) but it works! Plus if
> somebody gave in a plagiarised essay, they would have to rewrite it,
> or get a failed course...
>
> Besides all that, I think respect is the cornerstone of human
> interaction. And this has nothing to do with the quality of education
> or the people involved. This is something to be learned at a very
> young age (or should be, but is not currently taught at. say,
> elementary school). There were subjects at high school I didn't like,
> but at university one is given complete freedom to avoid those.
> Therefore I don't understand the behavior of the student in question.
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From dagonweb at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 09:38:46 2008
From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:38:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>

I personally hope that we reach the saturation point, the tip-over point
that we can start
ending public education. Schools will retain a percentage of pupils, largely
the poor, but
in ten years I see no reason we couldn't automate a iterative process of
learning,
researching, training and testing in a continuous cycle. We don't have much
of an alternative
to generalized, demoralizing education (and social grooming slash
intimidation) factories,
but we can do better very soon.
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 11:27:50 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:57:50 +1030
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>

Schools currently play a second and I think more important informal
function, which is as daycare for working parents. To fix the problem
of school, you must first fix the problem of paid employment.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting

2008/12/18 Dagon Gmail <dagonweb at gmail.com>:
> I personally hope that we reach the saturation point, the tip-over point
> that we can start
> ending public education. Schools will retain a percentage of pupils, largely
> the poor, but
> in ten years I see no reason we couldn't automate a iterative process of
> learning,
> researching, training and testing in a continuous cycle. We don't have much
> of an alternative
> to generalized, demoralizing education (and social grooming slash
> intimidation) factories,
> but we can do better very soon.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From max at maxmore.com  Thu Dec 18 17:34:24 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:34:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Faster than Moore's Law: Genome sequencing prices
Message-ID: <200812181801.mBII187P014425@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I've been thinking about getting my DNA markers tested by 23andme. 
It's remarkable how fast prices have been falling for both full 
genome sequencing and marker tests. This article has a good summary:

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/17/1719861.aspx

Onward!

Max


Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 19:11:20 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:11:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not really sure what you guys are talking about.  Ending public/free
education just means you're going to have more uneducated people out there,
how is this a good thing?  I'm actually in favor of the direction we're on
with standardized testing and using this as the primary criteria for
evaluation teachers.  We just have to get out of the era of social
promotion, parents and teacher unions having the majority of the power, and
you don't have to kill public education to do this.

*Kevin*
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From dagonweb at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 20:19:38 2008
From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:19:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf3acbfc0812181219t1787087dwade123d10a654c43@mail.gmail.com>

"...*but in ten years I see no reason we couldn't automate a iterative
process of
learning, researching, training and testing in a continuous cycle*..."

This process should obviously be free, paid by the state, at a substantially
lower
tax burden than current education and at a substantially higher efficiency,
but while
also being a lot less traumatic to students. *All at the same time yes.*

Here in my country all education is public, so the distinction between
private or
public is irrelevant. In a country where I vote I'll vote against madrases,
or any other
kind of private indoctrination institutes. I'll want nonscientific
education, namely
spreading creationist ideologies, outlawed.

The above quote is relevant to using compelling computing tools, that are
fun, that
work, that are cheatproof, that have a substantially lower drop-off rate,
that test
in continuous cycling, that stimulate both the talented and less so to
achieve the
maximum they can, but don't penalize those who cannot, that do not subject
kids
to gang culture, bullying. And then some. Schools have degenerated into
something
that is completely unacceptable. I am working in a very special school right
now,
where everyone is motivated beyond what I have ever seen my life, and I just
gag
at the though of lower professional schools (MBO) in my country.

I wouldn't even want to argue the american clusterf**k right now - that has
already
collapsed as a system years ago and keeps staggering on like a headless
corpse.


On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not really sure what you guys are talking about.  Ending public/free
> education just means
>
you're going to have more uneducated people out there, how is this a good
> thing?  I'm actually
>
in favor of the direction we're on with standardized testing and using this
> as the primary criteria
>
for evaluation teachers.  We just have to get out of the era of social
> promotion, parents and
>
teacher unions having the majority of the power, and you don't have to kill
> public education to
>
do this.
>
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From max at maxmore.com  Thu Dec 18 22:51:22 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:51:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] SF writers on predicting the future of technology
Message-ID: <200812182251.mBIMpOjA015038@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Lightweight, but perhaps worth a quick look:


What Science Fiction Writers Have Learned About Predicting The Future 
of Technology
Daniel Dern
CIO, December 16, 2008
http://www.cio.com/article/471261/What_Science_Fiction_Writers_Have_Learned_About_Predicting_The_Future_of_Technology?source=nlt_cioinsider 



Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From moulton at moulton.com  Thu Dec 18 23:13:38 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:13:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1229642018.6874.396.camel@hayek>


On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 12:11 -0700, Kevin H wrote:
> I'm not really sure what you guys are talking about.  Ending
> public/free education just means you're going to have more uneducated
> people out there,

You have made an assertion without providing any evidence.  The entire
question of education is very complex and needs better analysis than
just some assertions.  You can argue that public/free education is
better but you need to provide the evidence.  It would also help to
distinguish between "free" and "public".

>  how is this a good thing?  I'm actually in favor of the direction
> we're on with standardized testing and using this as the primary
> criteria for evaluation teachers.

Do you have any evidence that this actually works over the long term and
over a wide variety of school situations?

>  We just have to get out of the era of social promotion, parents and
> teacher unions having the majority of the power, and you don't have to
> kill public education to do this.
>  
> Kevin
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 19 02:59:54 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:59:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] dark constant
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081218205819.02658b40@satx.rr.com>

<http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2447/dark-energy-expands-and-contracts-our-universe>


Dark energy expands and contracts universe

Thursday, 18 December 2008
Agence France-Presse


WASHINGTON: Mysterious dark energy works simultaneously to expand the 
universe and shrink objects inside it, astronomers have found.

"This result could be described as 'arrested development of the 
universe'... Whatever is forcing the expansion of the universe to 
speed up is also forcing its development to slow down," said Alexey 
Vikhlinin of the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Massachusetts.

Vikhlinin was the lead researcher of the study, to be published next 
year in the Astrophysical Journal.

By studying how gravity competes with the expansion of galaxy 
clusters, using NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory, "a crucial 
independent test of dark energy" has been found, said the researchers.

After years of research, scientists now believe that dark energy 
makes up about 70 per cent of the universe, and is "a form of 
repulsive gravity that dominates the universe," the researchers 
wrote, "although [we] have no clear picture of what it actually is."

The discovery of dark energy's dual effects of expansion and 
contraction sheds light on changes in the universe to come: "What 
this means for the future of this universe is that accelerated 
expansion will proceed forever but will probably not result in a Big 
Rip," said Vikhlinin.

"That is, nearby galaxies will eventually disappear from our sight, 
but the structures already formed by clusters of galaxies and our own 
galaxy will not be torn apart, not in the near future anyway."

The new research provides the "strongest evidence yet that dark 
energy is the cosmological constant," Vikhlinin said, being similar 
to the energy of empty space. "Or in other words, that 'nothing 
weighs something."



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 03:46:22 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:16:22 +1030
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/19 Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com>:
> I'm not really sure what you guys are talking about.  Ending public/free
> education just means you're going to have more uneducated people out there,
> how is this a good thing?  I'm actually in favor of the direction we're on
> with standardized testing and using this as the primary criteria for
> evaluation teachers.  We just have to get out of the era of social
> promotion, parents and teacher unions having the majority of the power, and
> you don't have to kill public education to do this.
>
> Kevin

I think Dagon wasn't advocated ending educating people. Rather, I read
him as saying that the institution of school needs to be thrown out,
replaced with automated self-directed learning that kids could do from
home, at their own pace, etc etc. So the public could feasibly become
more educated than ever, just we wouldn't be using internment camps to
achieve it.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From amcmr2003 at yahoo.com.br  Fri Dec 19 04:49:36 2008
From: amcmr2003 at yahoo.com.br (Antonio Marcos)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:49:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527214.69652.qm@web110311.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Maybe current schools could gradually move in that direction. Drastic changes are often less effective and, lets say, harder to digest for the whole system.

Kindly,
Mark.


--- Em sex, 19/12/08, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> escreveu:

> De: Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com>
> Assunto: Re: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
> Para: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Data: Sexta-feira, 19 de Dezembro de 2008, 1:46
> 2008/12/19 Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com>:
> > I'm not really sure what you guys are talking
> about.  Ending public/free
> > education just means you're going to have more
> uneducated people out there,
> > how is this a good thing?  I'm actually in favor
> of the direction we're on
> > with standardized testing and using this as the
> primary criteria for
> > evaluation teachers.  We just have to get out of the
> era of social
> > promotion, parents and teacher unions having the
> majority of the power, and
> > you don't have to kill public education to do
> this.
> >
> > Kevin
> 
> I think Dagon wasn't advocated ending educating people.
> Rather, I read
> him as saying that the institution of school needs to be
> thrown out,
> replaced with automated self-directed learning that kids
> could do from
> home, at their own pace, etc etc. So the public could
> feasibly become
> more educated than ever, just we wouldn't be using
> internment camps to
> achieve it.
> 
> -- 
> Emlyn
> 
> http://emlynoregan.com - my home
> http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
> http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


      Veja quais s?o os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! +Buscados
http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 06:52:51 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:52:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NYTimes: financial schemes cost $400 billion a year in waste,
	fraud and abuse - Krugman
Message-ID: <9ff585550812182252o6189a769s3cac25a00be5df0e@mail.gmail.com>

Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Krugman estimates that financial schemes
cost $400 billion a year in waste, fraud and abuse http://tinyurl.com/3lxjwk
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From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 08:01:58 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:01:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Emlyn, wasn't seeing where he was coming from.  I take it the
criticism is of compulsory education then?  But his ideas sound interesting.

Fred C. Molton, I give as good as I get.  I respond to posts in kind.  The
more effort the poster spends in making his or her post, the more effort I
exert in a reply.  And this has been a rather informal discussion so far,
lets leave the tribunal for someone else, okay?

And, so you know, it's bad form to place the burden of proof only on those
assertions you disagree with.

*Kevin*
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Dec 19 11:24:42 2008
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 06:24:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4290.12.77.168.208.1229685882.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


>
> I think Dagon wasn't advocated ending educating people. Rather, I read
> him as saying that the institution of school needs to be thrown out,
> replaced with automated self-directed learning that kids could do from
> home, at their own pace, etc etc. So the public could feasibly become
> more educated than ever, just we wouldn't be using internment camps to
> achieve it.
>

Many years ago when my dyslexic son was young and I was fighting the school system,
I read "Summerhill". :)

Autodidact is the ideal. Question: would kids really take advantage of this? Some
would, they already do, but the majority?

Regards,
MB



From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 11:47:41 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:47:41 +1100
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <1229642018.6874.396.camel@hayek>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229642018.6874.396.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812190347o6f2c99bele1ccb2b2a05c8038@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/19 Fred C. Moulton <moulton at moulton.com>:
>
> On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 12:11 -0700, Kevin H wrote:
>> I'm not really sure what you guys are talking about.  Ending
>> public/free education just means you're going to have more uneducated
>> people out there,
>
> You have made an assertion without providing any evidence.  The entire
> question of education is very complex and needs better analysis than
> just some assertions.  You can argue that public/free education is
> better but you need to provide the evidence.  It would also help to
> distinguish between "free" and "public".

Can you point to a model country somewhere in the world which has
phased out spending on public education and as a result prospered?


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 11:57:08 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:57:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] NYTimes: financial schemes cost $400 billion a year in
	waste, fraud and abuse - Krugman
In-Reply-To: <9ff585550812182252o6189a769s3cac25a00be5df0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9ff585550812182252o6189a769s3cac25a00be5df0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812190357x7dedb464l2ba7adf90009afcf@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 6:52 AM, Michael LaTorra wrote:
> Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Krugman estimates that financial schemes
> cost $400 billion a year in waste, fraud and abuse http://tinyurl.com/3lxjwk
>


One way of looking at it, is that the government of the US has been de
facto taken over by millionaires and the big money class to use for
their own benefit. The workers and the middle class lose their jobs,
their houses and their pension savings while more and more millions
are given to the rich class.

The bailed out banks are now paying billions in year-end bonuses to
their staff, (based on the great sales performance selling junk bonds
that has ruined the economy).
<http://www.citywire.co.uk/personal/-/comment/morning-line/content.aspx?ID=324349>

The one bit of good news from Credit Suisse
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/credit-suisse-to-pay-bonuses-in-toxic-debt-1203709.html>
Credit Suisse has hatched a cunning plan to avoid public condemnation
over executive bonuses this year: it is going to pay top managers not
in cash, but in the toxic mortgage assets that caused the credit
crisis.


BillK


From eschatoon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 19 18:09:16 2008
From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:09:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>

I have resigned today from the Board of Directors of the World
Transhumanist Association / Humanity+.

Some explanations on my blog:

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/my_resignation_from_the_wta_h_board/

-- 
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 19 20:21:56 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:21:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] power satellites
In-Reply-To: <mailman.43.1229593136.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <731598.21827.qm@web27002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

To answer Keith's point:
> How do you answer Dr. David MacKay's flat out statement
> that *no*
> combination of small solutions will replace fossil fuels?

I took a look at David MacKay's book (read the 10 page synopsis thoroughly, skimmed the book). He makes the comment "Someone who wants to live on renewable energy, but expects the infrastructure associated with that renewable not to be large or intrusive, is deluding himself." In his six energy plans for the UK, he includes a "green" one that forswears nuclear and "clean coal" - but it involves *massive* use of wind turbines taking up space everywhere. So, MacKay is not ruling an all-renewable future.

 The "small solutions" MacKay is talking about are all the current modest government initiatives on the books and many minor energy efficiency tips circulated by the media. All of MacKay's plans for energy rely on electrifying 90% of transport and 25% reduction in energy used to hear homes.

Keith's recommendation of the 2nd best solution to energy needs (after solar power satellites) being many thousands of nuclear reactors - well, that meshes with MacKay's analysis that the *most economical* solution involving *currently proven* technology involves producing 63% of electricity by nuclear fission. Nuclear is the economist's choice
 
To answer another of Keith's points:
> Or Dr. Guy McPherson's comment:
> 
> "I was a firm believer in solar, wind, and geothermal
> energy until a
> few years ago, and I still believe they will help
> individuals. But no
> combination of these "renewable" technologies
> will make a notable
> difference at the level of 300 million Americans, much less
> the 6.5
> people in the world.
> 
 You may have me on the 300 million Americans. The other 6.2 billion people can have a significant proportion of their energy provided by renewables, with the gap filled by nuclear or the currently unproven "clean coal". The average American's daily energy consumption is so massive in comparison to anyone else on the planet it sometimes makes you wonder how the US manages it currently, let alone in a world of gas & oil shortages. It would take a lot of work on improving US energy efficiency to make any long-term plan work, unless massive new sources can be produced (such as nuclear fusion or solar power satellites).

(at this point I stop typing and ponder for a few minutes)
OK, I have to concede - as a method for allowing the USA to continue existing with a lifestyle similar to it's current one, solar power satellite tech is much closer to reality than nuclear fusion if someone is willing to make a massive funding commitment. Alerting the US public and government to the fact that massive steps need to be taken if the US isn't to suffer greatly is a worthwhile use of time.

Tom


      


From moulton at moulton.com  Sat Dec 20 00:05:27 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:05:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>


On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 01:01 -0700, Kevin H wrote:
...
> Fred C. Molton, I give as good as I get.  I respond to posts in kind.
> The more effort the poster spends in making his or her post, the more
> effort I exert in a reply.

Actually it is difficult to determine the effort for most posters since
generally all we see is the output not the effort that went into the
output.  Thus I suggest that a more useful approach is to examine the
quality of each post when replying to it.  This determination of quality
would likely be concerned with accuracy and with adhering to the basic
guidelines of logic and with clarity and other factors such as style,
civility, etc.  Thus when replying to a post we can note only evaluate
the quality of the post but in our reply strive to improve upon it.
Thus instead of matching other posters we can attempt to reach to even
greater heights.  So if your feelings were hurt because my request for
your evidence was not civil enough then I apologize.  I will make a
special effort to be more civil in my posts for the rest of the year
since sometimes people get a touchy during the holidays.

>   And this has been a rather informal discussion so far, lets leave
> the tribunal for someone else, okay?

Even in an informal discussion surely we would expect evidence for
assertions.  Well at least I do.

> And, so you know, it's bad form to place the burden of proof only on
> those assertions you disagree with.

My understanding was that in this forum the burden of proof fell on
anyone making an assertion regardless of whether I agreed or disagreed
with the assertion.  And since I assumed that you felt the same I was
merely giving a gentle reminder that the evidence for the assertion was
missing.  As for "bad form",  I do not think I did anything which would
constitute "bad form" but if I have then I am sure that that Moderator
will add a notation on my "Bad Form" form.  And it just occurred to me
that if the Moderator spills ink and ruins a form then it will be
useless and could be called a bad "Bad Form" form.

Best regards and happy holidays to all

Fred

> Kevin
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Dec 20 00:50:35 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:50:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <20081219195035.xbmn6ezioc0wkgso@webmail.natasha.cc>


This email is for Kevin and Fred.

Asking for references (evidence) to back up statements or claims is  
not only acceptable on this list, it promotes a deeper exchange of  
ideas.

Best wishes,

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More



From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 01:23:59 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:23:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <20081219195035.xbmn6ezioc0wkgso@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
	<20081219195035.xbmn6ezioc0wkgso@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812191723h3e0f2ab4yc7b747f1b85f57ca@mail.gmail.com>

Natasha,

If I made a suspicious or incredible claim, I wholly agree.  But sadly, no,
I don't have any references to support the idea that more people will be
educated if it is free than if people had to pay for it.  I guess I must
concede my argument then.

*Kevin*
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Dec 20 02:00:48 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:00:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812191723h3e0f2ab4yc7b747f1b85f57ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
	<20081219195035.xbmn6ezioc0wkgso@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<c49b1db60812191723h3e0f2ab4yc7b747f1b85f57ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081219210048.d94hq1dn0ko4o04k@webmail.natasha.cc>

Quoting Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com>:

> Natasha,
>
> If I made a suspicious or incredible claim, I wholly agree.  But sadly, no,
> I don't have any references to support the idea that more people will be
> educated if it is free than if people had to pay for it.  I guess I must
> concede my argument then.

It seems reasonable that more children would be willing to study (be  
educated)if they loved what they are learning and/or the educational  
methodology were in keeping with trends - like gaming as a means for  
learning, or interactive simulations for learning.  Now if this were  
free, I'd bet along with you that more would be inclinded to  
experiment with learning (willing to be educated) if it were free.   
But I don't have the stats either ...

Natasha









From femmechakra at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec 20 01:46:11 2008
From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:46:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <504681.88503.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>>I think Dagon wasn't advocated ending educating people. Rather, I read
>>him as saying that the institution of school needs to be thrown out, >>replaced with automated self-directed learning that kids could do from >>home, at their own pace, etc etc. So the public could feasibly become >>more educated than ever, just we wouldn't be using internment camps to
>>achieve it.

Really?  What happens to the social aspect of it?  Students today as I see them are not very sociable and you want to make computers more unclosed in a 4 wall room?  Doesn't that make it more secluded?  How are are people supposed to learn if not surrounded by different people?

Just curious
Anna:)





      __________________________________________________________________
Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/


From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 02:18:34 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:18:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <20081219210048.d94hq1dn0ko4o04k@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
	<20081219195035.xbmn6ezioc0wkgso@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<c49b1db60812191723h3e0f2ab4yc7b747f1b85f57ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081219210048.d94hq1dn0ko4o04k@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812191818t4eb17e8dy2c908e80c8a5eb76@mail.gmail.com>

I'm wondering if the idea of deschooling is commensurable with some of the
ideas proposed in this thread?  Check out "Deschooling Society" by Ivan
Illich.  The work can be found online here:
http://ournature.org/~novembre/illich/1970_deschooling.html

*Kevin*
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From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 02:24:58 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:24:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>

With all respect, it seems that your idea of transhumanism is more on the
order of a religion.  I don't think the problem is that the WTA is too
moderate.

*Kevin
*
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com>wrote:

> I have resigned today from the Board of Directors of the World
> Transhumanist Association / Humanity+.
>
> Some explanations on my blog:
>
> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/my_resignation_from_the_wta_h_board/
>
> --
> Eschatoon Magic
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
> aka Giulio Prisco
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 02:29:24 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:29:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <504681.88503.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<504681.88503.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812191829k187a5ddh489481c85c472378@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Really? What happens to the social aspect of it? Students today as I see them are
> not very sociable and you want to make computers more unclosed in a 4 wall room?
> Doesn't that make it more secluded? How are are people supposed to learn if not
> surrounded by different people?

There have been many proposals on this list and in the past from other
sources for all sorts of community learning centers, libraries to get
more involved in new forms of archiving information to be displayed to
youngsters, fablabs as a truly humanitarian education (*do* stuff,
act, that sort of thing), etc. I also think this falls in line with
some of the proposals regarding switching over to teachers competing
for specific students, which our Hungarian list subscribers might be
able to comment more on (m1n3r?).

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 20 02:19:19 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:19:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com><879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com><028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1><bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com><710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com><710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <07E03BE492E44D209689D6590724182A@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Fred C. Moulton
...
> 
> ...As for "bad 
> form",  I do not think I did anything which would constitute 
> "bad form" but if I have then I am sure that that Moderator 
> will add a notation on my "Bad Form" form.  And it just 
> occurred to me that if the Moderator spills ink and ruins a 
> form then it will be useless and could be called a bad "Bad 
> Form" form.
> 
> Best regards and happy holidays to all
> 
> Fred
> 
> > Kevin...


Fred, Kevin, et.al, I must confess my own moderator bad bad form form, for I
have moderated very little because of being crazy busy on the road to the
east coast a lot with my job and trying to take care of a wife, a two year
old, four aging parents and a ranch, oy vey.  

I read the exchange and decided no harm no foul, nothing that two
like-minded gentlemen can't work out amicably.  I do thank you all for being
civil as we approach this holiday season the much anticipated Newtonmas,
winter solstice, along with the usual list of religiously based occasions,
such as kwanzaa, and the day celebrating the birth of that guy with all the
songs, what's his name, Hoerkheimer Christ's twin brother.

spike










From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 20 03:09:55 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:09:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] walmart again
In-Reply-To: <07E03BE492E44D209689D6590724182A@spike>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com><879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com><028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1><bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com><710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com><710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com><1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
	<07E03BE492E44D209689D6590724182A@spike>
Message-ID: <00E81F0A6F11415ABBF7C6ACF90F6B85@spike>

 

I began doing all my shopping online approximately the minute it became an
option to do so, sometime back in the 90s.  This allowed me to eliminate the
last venue in which I routinely came into actual contact with the
proletariat.  Proletariat other than myself I mean, and my family.  And my
friends.  And my colleagues.  But I could avoid contact with proles other
than these.

By bad planning and business trips I found myself in need of a ten dollars
or less gag gift for an office party so I went to Walmart.  I have heard
many criticisms of Walmart, some from posters on this list, but I found my
own mileage varied.  For instance, some have said they felt dirty after
shopping there, felt the need to go home and shower.  I saw the various
house fraus with butts a meter wide in stretch pants, the broken down
geezers, the usual examples of that demographic of society, and it made me
feel clean all over.  Compared to them, you know.  I felt the need to rush
home and roll in the mud for an hour.  But I felt so inadequate in the geek
department: many at Walmart were even less fashionable than I.  I feel the
need to get my geek on.

spike


  



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 04:03:03 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:03:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <504681.88503.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<504681.88503.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240812192003p46c4f963mb4dafb3787f7a41b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> >>I think Dagon wasn't advocated ending educating people. Rather, I read
> >>him as saying that the institution of school needs to be thrown out,
> >>replaced with automated self-directed learning that kids could do from
> >>home, at their own pace, etc etc. So the public could feasibly become
> >>more educated than ever, just we wouldn't be using internment camps to
> >>achieve it.
>
> Really?  What happens to the social aspect of it?  Students today as I see
> them are not very sociable and you want to make computers more unclosed in a
> 4 wall room?  Doesn't that make it more secluded?  How are are people
> supposed to learn if not surrounded by different people?
>

I started to reply earlier in this thread but discarded the draft because I
didn't feel one more opinion on the subject would really add anything
useful.  Thanks for asking a general/semi-rhetorical(?) enough question that
I could throw my two cents in. :)

We (on this list) think of education as a means of proceeding from ignorance
to greater understanding.  I admit that I am unaware of education outside
the US public system.  What I understand of the myriad forces that maintain
the status-quo is that education is about indoctrination into the
consumerist way of life.  Most of the interaction among peers is to
reinforce the herd mentality.  The minimum required effort is lowered even
as our collective mental muscle atrophies.  I'm sure there are dozens of
examples of exceptional individuals being produced in American schools, but
these students would likely be "exceptional" given an opportunity in any
school.  Perhaps it is because I am an adult returning to college education
that I feel the work is easier than it was in the early 1990's, or perhaps
the business of accepting ever-larger tuition from an increasingly
lackluster crop of high school graduates has forced the expectation down?
"No child left behind" seems to have leveled the field so much there is no
mountain to overcome so achievement is a matter of having simply been a
participant in a nearly passive process.  Giovanni started this thread in
dismay over  the fact that his students resent being asked to work for their
grade, or that the boundaries were not labeled clearly enough.  I believe
there was once a time that grades were given for how far a student exceeded
the minimum and that competition drove the definition of "A" work.
Apparently today we can't allow competition to season the mush that is
served as education.  Why should students be accountable for academic
fitness if they are to enter a business world that is also so unfit that it
is being 'bailed out' by government funny-money?

The children who are my peers would claim to be very sociable; the "social
networks" are buzzing with activity.  That the content is mostly inane and
meaningless is of secondary importance.  What is relevant is that each human
node of humanity's collective graph is establishing connections and
submitting themselves to the group.  It simply doesn't make sense that
"plagiarism" is wrong: If any  answer exists that google can cough up, then
Giovanni should be happy his student has collected those works into a single
result.  If that result does not answer the question, then adjust the
question - to one which better appreciates the answer.  I believe this group
delusion is a coping mechanism for the fact that the majority is simply
unable to keep up with the pace of change.

Anna asked, "How are people supposed to learn if not surrounded by different
people?"  I suggest that the group is learning, but the individuals are
losing their identity to the group.  This thread about education has
focussed on how to make the individual more productive.  Who are the
individuals currently driving the world today?  What would be their interest
in educating the masses?  It is more profitable to manage the herd as a
statistical model with low variance from the mean than to address a
population of reasoning thinkers.  Those few exceptions which rise to the
top of the current system can be extracted and carefully polished to provide
the next generation of leaders (aka herd managers).

Education to set people free is a serious threat to established society.
Whether there are literal humans drivers of society or there are forces
balanced about social equilibrium, there is a great deal of inertia to
overcome if you/we seek to take humanity to the next local maxima.
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From asyluman at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 04:42:00 2008
From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:42:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <62c14240812192003p46c4f963mb4dafb3787f7a41b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<504681.88503.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<62c14240812192003p46c4f963mb4dafb3787f7a41b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a40a2a7b0812192042n7c3636eft192b568014b95b1a@mail.gmail.com>

As a 16 year old currently attending high school in America, I feel like I
should stop lurking and contribute to this conversation and such.  I'm all
for the speculation of adults, but I am totally immersed in this stuff all
the time.  While it is true that there is a lesser standard placed on
education by many kids, a good number of kids simply try as to not look bad
or create problems at home--and by this mechanism alone they learn. Of
course, this kids will simply become the preservers and handlers of society
in menial or non-progressive fields of work, but people like I and others
illustrate the fact that many schools, while not containing a large
percentage of very intelligent children, still put in place measures to make
sure that these children are able to reach their potential.  This is often
not as true in poorer schools, but at least there's something, eh?

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> >>I think Dagon wasn't advocated ending educating people. Rather, I read
>> >>him as saying that the institution of school needs to be thrown out,
>> >>replaced with automated self-directed learning that kids could do from
>> >>home, at their own pace, etc etc. So the public could feasibly become
>> >>more educated than ever, just we wouldn't be using internment camps to
>> >>achieve it.
>>
>> Really?  What happens to the social aspect of it?  Students today as I see
>> them are not very sociable and you want to make computers more unclosed in a
>> 4 wall room?  Doesn't that make it more secluded?  How are are people
>> supposed to learn if not surrounded by different people?
>>
>
> I started to reply earlier in this thread but discarded the draft because I
> didn't feel one more opinion on the subject would really add anything
> useful.  Thanks for asking a general/semi-rhetorical(?) enough question that
> I could throw my two cents in. :)
>
> We (on this list) think of education as a means of proceeding from
> ignorance to greater understanding.  I admit that I am unaware of education
> outside the US public system.  What I understand of the myriad forces that
> maintain the status-quo is that education is about indoctrination into the
> consumerist way of life.  Most of the interaction among peers is to
> reinforce the herd mentality.  The minimum required effort is lowered even
> as our collective mental muscle atrophies.  I'm sure there are dozens of
> examples of exceptional individuals being produced in American schools, but
> these students would likely be "exceptional" given an opportunity in any
> school.  Perhaps it is because I am an adult returning to college education
> that I feel the work is easier than it was in the early 1990's, or perhaps
> the business of accepting ever-larger tuition from an increasingly
> lackluster crop of high school graduates has forced the expectation down?
> "No child left behind" seems to have leveled the field so much there is no
> mountain to overcome so achievement is a matter of having simply been a
> participant in a nearly passive process.  Giovanni started this thread in
> dismay over  the fact that his students resent being asked to work for their
> grade, or that the boundaries were not labeled clearly enough.  I believe
> there was once a time that grades were given for how far a student exceeded
> the minimum and that competition drove the definition of "A" work.
> Apparently today we can't allow competition to season the mush that is
> served as education.  Why should students be accountable for academic
> fitness if they are to enter a business world that is also so unfit that it
> is being 'bailed out' by government funny-money?
>
> The children who are my peers would claim to be very sociable; the "social
> networks" are buzzing with activity.  That the content is mostly inane and
> meaningless is of secondary importance.  What is relevant is that each human
> node of humanity's collective graph is establishing connections and
> submitting themselves to the group.  It simply doesn't make sense that
> "plagiarism" is wrong: If any  answer exists that google can cough up, then
> Giovanni should be happy his student has collected those works into a single
> result.  If that result does not answer the question, then adjust the
> question - to one which better appreciates the answer.  I believe this group
> delusion is a coping mechanism for the fact that the majority is simply
> unable to keep up with the pace of change.
>
> Anna asked, "How are people supposed to learn if not surrounded by
> different people?"  I suggest that the group is learning, but the
> individuals are losing their identity to the group.  This thread about
> education has focussed on how to make the individual more productive.  Who
> are the individuals currently driving the world today?  What would be their
> interest in educating the masses?  It is more profitable to manage the herd
> as a statistical model with low variance from the mean than to address a
> population of reasoning thinkers.  Those few exceptions which rise to the
> top of the current system can be extracted and carefully polished to provide
> the next generation of leaders (aka herd managers).
>
> Education to set people free is a serious threat to established society.
> Whether there are literal humans drivers of society or there are forces
> balanced about social equilibrium, there is a great deal of inertia to
> overcome if you/we seek to take humanity to the next local maxima.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From moulton at moulton.com  Sat Dec 20 05:36:32 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:36:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
In-Reply-To: <20081219210048.d94hq1dn0ko4o04k@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<879757.21857.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
	<20081219195035.xbmn6ezioc0wkgso@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<c49b1db60812191723h3e0f2ab4yc7b747f1b85f57ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081219210048.d94hq1dn0ko4o04k@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <1229751392.13556.163.camel@hayek>


On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 21:00 -0500, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> It seems reasonable that more children would be willing to study (be  
> educated)if they loved what they are learning and/or the educational  
> methodology were in keeping with trends - like gaming as a means for  
> learning, or interactive simulations for learning.  Now if this were  
> free, I'd bet along with you that more would be inclinded to  
> experiment with learning (willing to be educated) if it were free.   
> But I don't have the stats either ...

Natasha

Reading your message reminded me of some of the ideas in the book Flow
by Mihly Csszentmihlyi.  I found a short piece that he wrote on
education:
http://www.newhorizons.org/future/Creating_the_Future/crfut_csikszent.html

The original post to which I replied used the expression "public/free
education" which is why I indicated that it would be helpful to
distinguish between "public" and "free".  Both terms have a variety of
definitions and need further clarification as to meaning.  Also I have
been hearing more about studies at the intersection of psychology and
economics looking at how individuals value things based on how much they
pay for them and related topics.  There is a variety of free course
notes, texts and lecture videos now on the web so it will be interesting
to see if people use these for "sampler" tastes to see if they are
interested in a subject or a professor.

Fred






From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Dec 20 07:54:07 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 02:54:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] SF writers on predicting the future of technology
References: <200812182251.mBIMpOjA015038@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <04E6220125DD4E6C9BB67CC7ECF49ACA@MyComputer>

I think the fundamental problem Science Fiction authors have is that they
must make up a story that is compensable, and if it is also interesting that
is certainly a bonus. The stuff that will happen during the Singularity,
millisecond by millisecond, will not be very comprehensible to a meat brain,
certainly not in the very short time you would have to consider the matter.
So if you expect to sell it's best to include in the book a handsome male
being falling in love with a beautiful female being. And the more graphic
the better.

Sex sells, it's been on the best sellers list for 3 billion years. Even
Yeast love it.

 John K Clark






From eschatoon at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 11:10:33 2008
From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:10:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90812200310y3f2bb36aw76a76f225860484e@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for commenting Kevin,

As it often happens, it really depends on the meaning of the terms
used. As I wrote in a reply to Wesley Smith:

http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/2007/01/give-me-that-new-transhumanist.html

"If religion is defined as "seeking to find transcendence and truth,
meaning and purpose", then I am ready and willing to accept the label
"religious". And as you say, I want to find it through scientific
means, or at least through means compatible with the scientific method
and worldview. If I don't *find* it, I want to *build* it following
the best examples in the history of our species and our civilization.
Science and engineering have taken us from caves to where we are now,
and there is no reason to think that this process should stop here."

But "religion" is more frequently used to include many other things,
including faith in the supernatural, irationality, belief in one or
more gods, dogmatism and intolerance, hatred for the infidels,
rejection of the scientific method, strict codes of behaviour, etc.,
which are completely alien to my mentality. In this sense, I do not
choose to see transhumanism as a religion. I often use the term
UNreligion.

G.

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 3:24 AM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:
> With all respect, it seems that your idea of transhumanism is more on the
> order of a religion.  I don't think the problem is that the WTA is too
> moderate.
>
> Kevin
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I have resigned today from the Board of Directors of the World
>> Transhumanist Association / Humanity+.
>>
>> Some explanations on my blog:
>>
>> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/my_resignation_from_the_wta_h_board/
>>
>> --
>> Eschatoon Magic
>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
>> aka Giulio Prisco
>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



-- 
Eschatoon Magic
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
aka Giulio Prisco
http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 16:34:18 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:34:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812200834q7ae3a728w481f7555e912ccb5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 3:24 AM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:
> With all respect, it seems that your idea of transhumanism is more on the
> order of a religion.  I don't think the problem is that the WTA is too
> moderate.

Even before the issue radicalism/"realism", there is the issue of
execution and real goals. For instance, the debate amongst voting
members on the change of trade name was perceived as a choice between
"fidelity to one's ideas" (or ideas one used to have...) and "success
in the mainstream".

Now, it has been noted by a few people of very different persuasions,
unfortunately without obtaining much attention in comparison with the
delusional "philosophical" debate above, that Humanity Plus, while
presenting a number of "ideological" issues in itself, presumably
sounds *less* palatable to most people than "transhumanists" (as in
"those accepting the idea of a transition towards something
more-than-human"), since it obviously implies the conceited and very
arrogant idea that WTA itself and its members would correspond... to a
superior, deluxe version of humanity, on the line of the "The
Illuminati" or "The League of Supermen"!

Having said that, we should first make clear to ourselves whether we
actually intend to go after the mainstream, which would require making
WTA slogans and messages as *different*, *strong* and *simple* as
possible, or we are futilely going on trying to appease the small
circles controlling most of the mediatic-cultural-political power in
western countries and defining what is "politically correct" and
"acceptable".

To insist in the second option, which is already well represented by
the blatantly defensive overuse of words such as "responsible",
"ethical", "humane", "reasonable" in WTA literature and the
hyperqualification of our messages, is not really likely to generate
more funds or a larger, motivated membership, since it does little to
reassure our adversaries and risks to be found boring and confusing by
our most immediate public.

In fact, the stigma allegedly attached to the relatively innocent and
humble word of "transhumanism" does not depend on its semantics, but
on the well-justified rejection of our ideas by environments who
widely share different, or even opposed, value systems that are
basically non-negotiable for them, let alone in the name of
"reasonableness", and represent the definition itself of what is
"ethical" for them.

Unless WTA actually renounces to its ideas to the point of becoming an
absolutely pointless organisation, it is easy to prophesise that such
stigma will quickly attach to "humans-plus" as well. That is, as long
as anybody will have ever heard of that name or paid any attention
thereto, something on which I would not be too optimistic.

Stefano Vaj


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 17:47:35 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:47:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812200834q7ae3a728w481f7555e912ccb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812200834q7ae3a728w481f7555e912ccb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812200947p6f1446d9yd70258941317683@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Unless WTA actually renounces to its ideas to the point of becoming an
> absolutely pointless organisation, it is easy to prophesise that such
> stigma will quickly attach to "humans-plus" as well. That is, as long
> as anybody will have ever heard of that name or paid any attention
> thereto, something on which I would not be too optimistic.

Wouldn't it be great if WTA started to focus on actual projects that,
I don't know, have technological merit? (And haven't we talked about
this a thousand times before? I'm not sure anybody is listening.)

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 18:00:02 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:00:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812200947p6f1446d9yd70258941317683@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812200834q7ae3a728w481f7555e912ccb5@mail.gmail.com>
	<55ad6af70812200947p6f1446d9yd70258941317683@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812201000y584e0401hc5e00a621d2e2969@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wouldn't it be great if WTA started to focus on actual projects that,
> I don't know, have technological merit? (And haven't we talked about
> this a thousand times before? I'm not sure anybody is listening.)
>

I concur, though I've been extremely lazy on this front.  Keith Henson has
been making proposals about solar power satellites for some time now and
thus far it seems *no one* has even bothered to check his work.

But, I have a question, what *is* the WTA position on space solar power?
What can the WTA do to bring this issue into the forefront and make it an
actionable item for our governments?  This is something that, really, we
need to implement in the next twenty years, and even then might be too late
(see energy crisis).

*Kevin*
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 18:19:51 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:19:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812201000y584e0401hc5e00a621d2e2969@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812200834q7ae3a728w481f7555e912ccb5@mail.gmail.com>
	<55ad6af70812200947p6f1446d9yd70258941317683@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201000y584e0401hc5e00a621d2e2969@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812201019k166023bbga2fa3b1632b105c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn't it be great if WTA started to focus on actual projects that,
>> I don't know, have technological merit? (And haven't we talked about
>> this a thousand times before? I'm not sure anybody is listening.)
>
> I concur, though I've been extremely lazy on this front.  Keith Henson has
> been making proposals about solar power satellites for some time now and
> thus far it seems *no one* has even bothered to check his work.

I just wrote an email to cosmeng.org regarding this that I'll forward here.

- Bryan


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Dec 20 18:21:29 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:21:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Sharing/engineering proposal
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812201018n1d8ba7fbx2cf282ee485f8f45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55ad6af70812201018n1d8ba7fbx2cf282ee485f8f45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812201021h7687a86egdd68fca675b5e512@mail.gmail.com>

Per my promise to forward.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Subject: Sharing/engineering proposal
To: cosmic-engineers <cosmic-engineers at googlegroups.com>, kanzure at gmail.com


Hey all,

Guilio has been mentioning that he wants to do yet another
announcement soon, with OCE as some sort of actual radical
transhumanism that actually wants to get something done. Of the many,
many complaints that I have of other, institutionalized transhuman
groups, the commonality is that the groups don't support (much less
work on) any of the transhuman engineering projects that already
exist. This, I think, is useless, self-sacrifical behavior.

As a brief selection of transhuman-related engineering projects,
there's open-eeg, open-rtms, medical health systems, ERPs, genetics
systems, an explosion of synthetic biology software, manufacturing &
colonization simulations, neurocommons [let's not forget the cultural
freevolution with the Creative Commons folk], and even projects like
osaerospace and Team FREDNET for open source space initiatives, also
the p2p space agency proposals that were floating around on and off of
this list earlier this year.

However, I think more like an engineer. I don't know about everyone
else here, but the many projects quickly become somewhat
'unmanageable' in the sense that they aren't systematicized. The same
work that is being done on projects like BRLCAD and Team FREDNET could
be applicable to other open source hardware initiatives, but since
there's no common hardware packaging format, the efforts are kind of
lost and scattered all over the web and hard to pick up. People have
done really great things -- I like to point to Dave Gingery as an
example, where all of his information is now stuck in books instead of
in CAD formats plus metadata and recipes on how to bootstrap your own
industrial ecology. It's just that their effort is kind of vaporware,
and it's the same vaporware that the transhumans (supposedly) wanted
in the first place.

When you start to do formal engineering and packaging schematics and
other specialty information into a computational format, it means that
you get to transfer this information around to anybody who needs it.
How much more radical than sharing and building the future can you
get? But on the other hand, it does take some effort to understand, so
it's not the easiest choice to make, but who said any of this
transcendentalism stuff was going to be easy anyway.

So, specifically, I'm proposing that members of the OCE look more into
the open source hardware projects :-) and also into the hardware
packaging formats that I and an increasing number of others in the
tech community have been working on. I feel that if Guilio is going to
go write another announcement to represent 'radical' transhumanism, it
should really have an outline for continued involvement in technical
projects. I was hoping to see what interest there is in the community
to explore this topic some more. :-)

Some links.

A partial list of open source hardware projects:
http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking
- includes cell phones, cars, space tech, microprocessors,
brain-computer interfaces, bioneurofeedback, etc. etc.

Individuals generally interested in all of these topics from a
do-it-yourself biology P.O.V:
http://groups.google.com/group/diybio
http://diybio.org/
"DIYbio is an organization for the ever expanding community of citizen
scientists and DIY biological engineers that value openness &
responsibility.  DIYbio aims to be an "Institution for the Amateur" --
an umbrella organization that provides some of the same resources
afforded by more traditional institutions like academia and industry,
such as access to a community of experts, to technical literature and
other resources, to responsible oversight for health and safety, and
an interface between the community and the public at large."

And then the open manufacturing guys :-)
http://openmanufacturing.net/
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing

"""Open manufacturing is about bringing free and open source software
development methodology and philosophy to the design and construction
of the physical world. The "open" in open manufacturing can be
interpreted in a few different ways:

open source designs under free licenses
open to do-it-yourself
open to end-user dialogue
open to peer-review
open to collaboration
open to cradle-to-cradle analysis
open to viewing as an ecosystem of processes
open to democratic participation
open to new design ideas
open to new economics
open to the future

And perhaps even more. These possibilities all flow out of "free and
open source licensing" of designs (or in other words, they are less
likely to happen with proprietary designs).
"""

Technical specs and todo list on the packaging format that has been
proposed on the openmanufacturing list:
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/8465dc23eb48e332/e185e43b59db6b7d?lnk=gst&q=skdb+todo#e185e43b59db6b7d
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/3f991441a6860b51
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/4a6f612fb2d9069a

http://oscomak.net/
"""
OSCOMAK supports playful learning communities of individuals and groups
chaordically building free and open source knowledge, tools, and simulations
which lay the groundwork for humanity's sustainable development on
Spaceship Earth and
eventual joyful, compassionate, and diverse expansion into space
(including Mars, the Moon, the Asteroids, or elsewhere in the Universe).

The OSCOMAK project will foster a community in which many interested
individuals will contribute to the creation of a distributed global
repository of manufacturing knowledge about past, present and future
processes, materials, and products. OSCOMAK stands for "OSCOMAK
Semantic Community On Manufactured Artifacts and Know-how".
"""

((Also, there's been talk among the diybio and openmanufacturing
community to do a 'debian social contract' equivalent in the near
future.))

Okay. Let's see how far this gets us. Comments?

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 20 18:27:06 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:27:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This news is very encouraging
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081220122618.02302f58@satx.rr.com>

...after the Bush blight:



Obama names 4 top members of science team

By HOPE YEN ? 1 hour ago

WASHINGTON (AP) ? President-elect Barack Obama's 
selection Saturday of a Harvard physicist and a 
marine biologist for science posts is a sign he 
plans a more aggressive response to global 
warming than did the Bush administration.

John Holdren and Jane Lubchenco are leading 
experts on climate change who have advocated 
forceful government action. Holdren will become 
Obama's science adviser as director of the White 
House Office of Science and Technology Policy. 
Lubchenco will lead the National Oceanic and 
Atmospheric Administration, which oversees ocean 
and atmospheric studies and does much of the 
government's research on global warming.

Holdren also will direct the president's Council 
of Advisers on Science and Technology. Joining 
him as co-chairs will be Nobel Prize-winning 
scientist Harold Varmus, a former director of the 
National Institutes of Health, and Massachusetts 
Institute of Technology professor Eric Lander, a 
specialist in human genome research.

"It's time we once again put science at the top 
of our agenda and worked to restore America's 
place as the world leader in science and 
technology," Obama said in announcing the 
selections in his weekly radio address.

The president-elect said promoting science means 
more than just providing money, but also is about 
ensuring that facts and evidence are never 
twisted or obscured by politics or ideology.

"From landing on the moon, to sequencing the 
human genome, to inventing the Internet, America 
has been the first to cross that new frontier 
because we had leaders who paved the way," Obama 
said. "Leaders who not only invested in our 
scientists, but who respected the integrity of the scientific process."

The four scientists will confront challenges in 
global warming after years of inaction by the 
Bush administration, which opposed mandatory cuts 
of greenhouse gas pollution. Last year, former 
Surgeon General Richard Carmona testified to 
Congress that top administration officials often 
dismissed global warming as a "liberal cause" and 
sought to play down public health reports out of political considerations.

Since 1993, summer Arctic sea ice has lost the 
equivalent of Alaska, California and Texas, and 
global warming is accelerating. The amount of 
carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere has already 
pushed past the level some scientists say is safe.

Holdren, 64, is a former president of the 
American Association for the Advancement of 
Science in Washington who has pushed for more 
urgent action on global warming. As Obama's top 
science adviser, he would manage about 40 
Ph.D-level experts who help shape and communicate 
science and technology policy.

"Global warming is a misnomer. It implies 
something gradual, something uniform, something 
quite possibly benign, and what we're 
experiencing is none of those," Holdren said a 
year ago in a speech at Harvard. "There is 
already widespread harm ... occurring from 
climate change. This is not just a problem for 
our children and our grandchildren."

Lubchenco, an Oregon State University professor 
specializing in overfishing and climate change, 
will be the first woman to head NOAA. A member of 
the Pew Oceans Commission, Lubchenco has 
recommended steps to overcome crippling damage to 
the world's oceans from overfishing and pollution 
and has expressed optimism for change once 
President George W. Bush leaves office.

"The Bush administration has not been respectful 
of the science," she said this year. "But I think 
that's not true of Republicans in general. I know 
it's not. I am very much looking forward to a new 
administration that does respect scientific 
information and that considers it very seriously 
in making environmental policies."

Varmus, who was a co-recipient of the Nobel Prize 
for his research on the causes of cancer, served 
as NIH director during the Clinton 
administration. A former medical professor at the 
University of California, San Francisco, he 
helped found the Ralph Lauren Center for Cancer 
Care and Prevention and chairs a scientific board 
at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Lander, who teaches at both MIT and Harvard, 
founded the Whitehead Institute-MIT Center for 
Genome Research in 1990, which became part of the 
Broad Institute in 2003. A leading researcher in 
the Human Genome Project, he and his colleagues 
are using the findings to explore the molecular 
mechanisms behind human disease.



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 20 18:46:11 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:46:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812201000y584e0401hc5e00a621d2e2969@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812200834q7ae3a728w481f7555e912ccb5@mail.gmail.com><55ad6af70812200947p6f1446d9yd70258941317683@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201000y584e0401hc5e00a621d2e2969@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <325BA457CE5F45D5B20584DD2F626BB0@spike>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin H

...  Keith Henson has been making proposals about solar power satellites for
some time now and thus far it seems *no one* has even bothered to check his
work...Kevin


Oy, not so Kevin.  I have looked at Keith's proposals and I have found
nothing wrong with anything, not one calculation amiss, nada, all perfectly
feasible technically.  I just haven't the foggiest clue how to sell
something like this to the people who have the money to make it happen.  If
I understood politics I would have a big corner office with a wooden desk.

spike









From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 02:54:06 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:24:06 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>

Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/20/219209

"President-elect Obama's transition team has published for public
comment a white paper entitled Space Solar Power (SSP) ? A Solution
for Energy Independence & Climate Change. The paper was prepared and
submitted by the Space Frontier Foundation and other citizen space
advocates, and calls for the new Administration to make development of
Space Solar Power a national priority. The SSP white paper was among
the first ten released by the Obama transition team. It is the first
and only space-related white paper released by the team to date. With
145 comments thus far, it is already among the top five most-discussed
of the 20-some white papers on Change.gov."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8736849/Space-Solar-Power-SSP-A-Solution-for-Energy-Independence-Climate-Change
http://change.gov/open_government/entry/space_solar_power_ssp_a_solution_for_energy_independence_climate_change/

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 03:00:58 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:30:58 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in my
	life?
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>

Apparently Richard Dawkins sells t-shirts!

http://richarddawkins.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

Also, check out the excellent scarlet-A badges and stickers and stuff:

http://richarddawkins.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2

Good Newtonmass cheer all round.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 03:30:16 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:30:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I was excited to see this.  One of the commenters on Slashdot linked
to this article by the Economist giving a rather sobering account of the
economics of space solar power:
http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12673299

It seems like *someone* in the transition team has looked at this, but no
indication if a serious look has been given to it or not.  I added to
Keith's wiki my question about opportunity cost: whether the same money for
space solar power we might be better off instead investing in terrestrial
sources of power.  While it true that space satellites would be able
to receive five times as much solar energy as on the earth, would it be
cheaper just to produce five times as many solar panels on the earth with
the same amount of money?  Or investing in wind farms or nuclear power
plants?

Kevin

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
>
> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/20/219209
>
> "President-elect Obama's transition team has published for public
> comment a white paper entitled Space Solar Power (SSP) ? A Solution
> for Energy Independence & Climate Change. The paper was prepared and
> submitted by the Space Frontier Foundation and other citizen space
> advocates, and calls for the new Administration to make development of
> Space Solar Power a national priority. The SSP white paper was among
> the first ten released by the Obama transition team. It is the first
> and only space-related white paper released by the team to date. With
> 145 comments thus far, it is already among the top five most-discussed
> of the 20-some white papers on Change.gov."
>
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/8736849/Space-Solar-Power-SSP-A-Solution-for-Energy-Independence-Climate-Change
>
> http://change.gov/open_government/entry/space_solar_power_ssp_a_solution_for_energy_independence_climate_change/
>
> --
> Emlyn
>
> http://emlynoregan.com - my home
> http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
> http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 21 04:47:22 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:47:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
	mylife?
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Emlyn
... 
> Also, check out the excellent scarlet-A badges and stickers and stuff:
> 
> http://richarddawkins.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2
> 
> Good Newtonmass cheer all round. Emlyn


This is a start, Emlyn, but I am missing the usual cutting up and carrying
on that comes down on this forum about this time of year.  I tried to start
something with the Walmart riff, but everyone seems to be in too somber a
mood currently.

All Newtonmass gags and silliness is not only allowed but heartily
encouraged, including myrrh jokes and sex lamas and such.

Happy winter solstice!

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 21 06:09:43 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:09:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist
	inmylife?
In-Reply-To: <1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
Message-ID: <D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>


 
> > Good Newtonmass cheer all round. Emlyn
> 
> 
> This is a start, Emlyn, but I am missing the usual cutting up 
> and carrying on that comes down on this forum about this time 
> of year...

For instance, the christians are celebrating the virgin birth.  We can do
our take on that by celebrating the virgin mirth.  That's all about having
the proper geek attitude: we never get laid but we have a great sense of
humor about the whole thing.

Even the most hard core atheists among us know all the lyrics to christmas
songs.  We do, right?  No matter how hard we try to not know those words, we
know em anyway.  We have been mind raped, even the radical Presbyterians,
and they are not happy about it at all.  There is nothing we can do.  Or
rather there is.  Find ways to ridicule the songs.  Many of them contain
funny stuff.  Consider:
  
...long lay the world in sin and error piiiiiining...  

Well when you really think about it, most sin isn't exactly an error.  Most
of the time it was done intentionally.  We really don't mistakenly do any of
the devilment (Whoops, I just accidentally coveted my neighbor's ass...)

Or try finding christmas songs with funny words, such as ye.  Ye is found
only in christmas songs, and it is a kind of silly sounding word.  It is
easy to see why the English dropped it.  Try singing a ye song and every
time the word ye appears, accent it in fortissimo, so its ...god rest YE
merry gentlemen let nothing YE dismaaay...  Then start randomly and
increasingly subsituting random syllables with ye:
  
...remember YE our savior 
was YE on christmas YEEE, 
to YE us all from YE YE's power
when YE were YE YE YEEEEE
o tidings of YE YE YE and YEEE
YE YE YE YEEEEEE...

and pretty soon ye start sounding like Crazy Guggenheim.

The word "virgin" shows up a lot in christmas songs.  You can entertain
guests by substituting "trollop" or "harlot" or "strumpet" wherever you
would ordinarily sing "virgin."

Or make up a funny scene involving the Virgin Mary, such as the principal of
the local high school addressing the prom:

"Welcome Nazareth High class of Negative Oh One!  This year's prom king and
queen are Joseph Christ and the Virgin Mary Finklestein!"

(Applause, followed by awkward silence, people looking around.)

"Ummm, has anyone seen Joey and Virgie?  They were here earlier?  Left
together an hour ago?  Ummm... OK then...Let's have the band crank up
another jumping dance tune...)

I shoulda been a writer for Saturday Night Live.

spike



    

	




From max at maxmore.com  Sun Dec 21 07:51:29 2008
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 01:51:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the
 atheistinmylife?
Message-ID: <200812210751.mBL7pWk9002763@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Okay, spike, you asked for it.

We were grocery shopping this evening and I heard that damn Christmas 
song AGAIN -- the one that goes "rump-a-pump-pump." (Oh yes, it's 
"Little Drummer Boy.") Maybe it's just me, but it brings to mind a 
horrible image of Santa taking someone merrily up the behind.

You're welcome,

Max

(I suppose it's possible that the object of Santa's attentions might 
be his ho-ho-ho.)


> > > Good Newtonmass cheer all round. Emlyn
> >
> >
> > This is a start, Emlyn, but I am missing the usual cutting up
> > and carrying on that comes down on this forum about this time
> > of year...
>
>Even the most hard core atheists among us know all the lyrics to 
>christmas songs.  We do, right?  No matter how hard we try to not 
>know those words, we know em anyway.  We have been mind raped, even 
>the radical Presbyterians, and they are not happy about it at 
>all.  There is nothing we can do.  Or rather there is.  Find ways to 
>ridicule the songs.  Many of them contain funny stuff.




From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Dec 21 14:39:34 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:39:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the
	atheistinmylife?
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
Message-ID: <2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "spike" <spike66 at att.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:09 PM

> Even the most hard core atheists among us know all the lyrics to christmas songs.  We do, right?  No matter how hard we try to not know those words, we know em anyway.  We have been mind raped, even the radical Presbyterians, and they are not happy about it at all.  There is nothing we can do.  

Yes there is.  It's easy - one can simply ignore Christ-mass (I've done it for 25 years).  And If I didn't grow up in a cultural Christian household to begin with, there would be nothing to ignore.  Even with the secular components that have been added to Christ-mass, many "other" religious groups do not do Christ-mass.

> Or rather there is.  Find ways to ridicule the songs.  Many of them contain
funny stuff. <snip>  ... I shoulda been a writer for Saturday Night Live.

Yes, you would definitely be able to liven things up for even that jaded crowd! (Although, you know, in these difficult economic times the SNL people have simply resorted to stealing stuff ... observe how much interview footage they've managed to lift almost verbatim from Sarah Palin's interviews earlier this year ... ;).

Olga
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 21 15:12:58 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:12:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the
	atheistinmylife?
In-Reply-To: <200812210751.mBL7pWk9002763@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200812210751.mBL7pWk9002763@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <D3C793D1BBF84728A2F4FB88DFB931CA@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Max More

> Okay, spike, you asked for it.

Oh boy did I ever.

> We were grocery shopping this evening and I heard that damn 
> Christmas song AGAIN -- the one that goes "rump-a-pump-pump." 
... 
> it brings to mind a horrible image of Santa taking someone 
> merrily up the behind.  Max


Oy, Max, I will never be able to get that image out of my mind whenever I
hear that song.  {8^D  

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 21 15:18:33 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:18:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy
	theatheistinmylife?
In-Reply-To: <2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike><D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <D1E0D2E486EF4A74A82534A123BB9A4D@spike>

 


________________________________

	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin
	Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:40 AM
	To: ExI chat list
	Subject: Re: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy
theatheistinmylife?
	
	
	From: "spike" <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> >
	To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >
	Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:09 PM
	 
	> Even the most hard core atheists among us know all the lyrics to
christmas songs.  We do, right?  No matter how hard we try to not know those
words, we know em anyway.  We have been mind raped, even the radical
Presbyterians, and they are not happy about it at all.  There is nothing we
can do.  
	 
	Yes there is.  It's easy - one can simply ignore Christ-mass (I've
done it for 25 years).  And If I didn't grow up in a cultural Christian
household to begin with, there would be nothing to ignore.  Even with the
secular components that have been added to Christ-mass, many "other"
religious groups do not do Christ-mass.
	 
	> Or rather there is.  Find ways to ridicule the songs.  Many of
them contain
	funny stuff. <snip>  ... I shoulda been a writer for Saturday Night
Live.
	
	Yes, you would definitely be able to liven things up for even that
jaded crowd! (Although, you know, in these difficult economic times the SNL
people have simply resorted to stealing stuff ... observe how much interview
footage they've managed to lift almost verbatim from Sarah Palin's
interviews earlier this year ... ;).
	 
	Olga




From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 15:24:59 2008
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:24:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy
	theatheistinmylife?
In-Reply-To: <D1E0D2E486EF4A74A82534A123BB9A4D@spike>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<D1E0D2E486EF4A74A82534A123BB9A4D@spike>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0812210724h468108abib1fc07f886f59871@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 3:18 PM, spike wrote:
>

Cross cultural Xmas problems.  :)


<http://wondermark.com/store/card_chan.jpg>


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 21 15:44:21 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:44:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy
	theatheistinmylife?
In-Reply-To: <2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike><D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <47B0C79F4DAA4ECCBC0B4F34F16D5A82@spike>

 
On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin


>>... I shoulda been a writer for Saturday Night Live... spike
	
	>Yes, you would definitely be able to liven things up for even that
jaded crowd! (Although, you know, in these difficult economic times the SNL
people have simply resorted to stealing stuff ... observe how much interview
footage they've managed to lift almost verbatim from Sarah Palin's
interviews earlier this year ... ;)...Olga


Tina Fay did such a perfect spot-on Sarah Palin that I still cannot picture
Palin's face without it being replaced by Fay's.  A TV news quiz that showed
that the great majority of the voting public believes that Palin commented
"I can see Russia from my house," which was actually a SNL parody by Fay.

While looking on YouTube for a Crazy Guggenheim clip I realized the Jackie
Gleason show may have been an early example of political correctness from
the 1950s.  I don't know the chronology of the skits for they were already
in reruns by the time I saw them for the first time in the 60s, so I may be
wrong on this.  Gleason as Joe the Bartender would do a monologue with some
deep philosophical question, then ask Crazy Guggenheim's opinion, who would
offer some wacky take with the googly eyes and cross bite (very visual
comedy).  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGPCHT_NAus

In the clip I saw yesterday I think it must have been an early one before
Fontaine's character developed the ye ye ye laugh.  The other thing I
noticed is that Joe called Crazy in from offstage, so it is unclear if Crazy
is drunk or retarded.  I can imagine the more sensitive crowd in those days
objecting they were making fun of the mentally disabled, so they afterwards
had Crazy at the bar drinking while Joe set up the gag.  That way they would
be making fun of drunks, which would be OK even today.

If you can find a clip of Carzy Guggenheim singing, that will be a treat.
Fontaine could really sing.

spike






From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Dec 21 17:30:14 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:30:14 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
	mylife?
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01DA79BD7D17453391A5F9EC05B1A4CF@DFC68LF1>

Love the T-shirt review of the God character in the Old Testament story. 


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:01 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
mylife?

Apparently Richard Dawkins sells t-shirts!

http://richarddawkins.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

Also, check out the excellent scarlet-A badges and stickers and stuff:

http://richarddawkins.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2

Good Newtonmass cheer all round.

--
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com
- downshifting and ranting _______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 21 20:17:12 2008
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:17:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] To Will and all the young people in this post...
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812192042n7c3636eft192b568014b95b1a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <383670.85527.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Will,
Just reading how you express yourself and the content of your post, you seem a very intelligent young person. Probably you have more knowledge than the average American teenager. I?'m very skeptical, though,?that what you learned at school is even comparable with what an average teenager needs to know to enter college in ANY country in the world.
This statement in particular applies to the average American teenager's knowledge of History (in particular world History), Geography, Science and Mathematics. Let's not talk about the ability of American high school students to express themselves in their native talk (and let's keep absolutely quiet about them even blabbering in a different tongue).
If you like I can send you to different websites to compare your knowledge with what is considered standard in every other country.
I'm sorry, make sure to understand this is not a personal attack but a statement based on my experience (and that of my colleagues)?dealing with hundreds of college?students. 
It is not your fault. But you, young people, should be outraged with the American education system that doesn't prepare you to be citizen of the world. You are the ones that need to demand, now, that you get what everybody else gets from school. 
And self-education is not the answer.
Specialized knowledge is not the answer.
That comes later when students have an appreciation for learning. 
Education is about being well rounded, to be able to appreciate the beauty of an equation, the immensity of the?Cosmos, the?simple symmetry of a Greek temple, feel in awe hearing Shakespeare's or Pablo Neruda's?verses.
Without a guide, a real teacher, most students would not have a clue of the vast worlds of knowledge?available to them. They? would never appreciate, and take pleasure (the highest form of pleasure of them all)?in meaningful learning. 
I was fortunate enough to be educated in a country with high schools?that cared to forge me as an intellectual, an educated person. I know what good teacher can do to your soul. I?felt a sense of?awakening when I was in high school. It was an amazing time. I thank every day my Professors (we call our high school teachers in that way) above all when I realize?how ignorant American students are.
?The average American student, even a well prepared one, is??without passion,?he?is lacking?self-awareness or awareness of what goes around them, he in not mature and for sure he?has not idea of what it means to be a scholar, an intellectual, an educated?man (AND NOT A KID !) . We have an exam in Italy, at the end of the last year of?high school. A grinding, 3 days exam that, I bet, many MIT? freshmen students will not be able to pass. Not by chance we call the exam "The Maturity Exam".


--- On Fri, 12/19/08, Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] I don't understand students: help !
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Friday, December 19, 2008, 10:42 PM


As a 16 year old currently attending high school in America, I feel like I should stop lurking and contribute to this conversation and such.? I'm all for the speculation of adults, but I am totally immersed in this stuff all the time.? While it is true that there is a lesser standard placed on education by many kids, a good number of kids simply try as to not look bad or create problems at home--and by this mechanism alone they learn. Of course, this kids will simply become the preservers and handlers of society in menial or non-progressive fields of work, but people like I and others illustrate the fact that many schools, while not containing a large percentage of very intelligent children, still put in place measures to make sure that these children are able to reach their potential.? This is often not as true in poorer schools, but at least there's something, eh?


On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:


On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote:




>>I think Dagon wasn't advocated ending educating people. Rather, I read
>>him as saying that the institution of school needs to be thrown out, >>replaced with automated self-directed learning that kids could do from >>home, at their own pace, etc etc. So the public could feasibly become >>more educated than ever, just we wouldn't be using internment camps to
>>achieve it.

Really? ?What happens to the social aspect of it? ?Students today as I see them are not very sociable and you want to make computers more unclosed in a 4 wall room? ?Doesn't that make it more secluded? ?How are are people supposed to learn if not surrounded by different people?

I started to reply earlier in this thread but discarded the draft because I didn't feel one more opinion on the subject would really add anything useful.? Thanks for asking a general/semi-rhetorical(?) enough question that I could throw my two cents in. :)

We (on this list) think of education as a means of proceeding from ignorance to greater understanding.? I admit that I am unaware of education outside the US public system.? What I understand of the myriad forces that maintain the status-quo is that education is about indoctrination into the consumerist way of life.? Most of the interaction among peers is to reinforce the herd mentality.? The minimum required effort is lowered even as our collective mental muscle atrophies.? I'm sure there are dozens of examples of exceptional individuals being produced in American schools, but these students would likely be "exceptional" given an opportunity in any school.? Perhaps it is because I am an adult returning to college education that I feel the work is easier than it was in the early 1990's, or perhaps the business of accepting ever-larger tuition from an increasingly lackluster crop of high school graduates has forced the expectation down?? "No child
 left behind" seems to have leveled the field so much there is no mountain to overcome so achievement is a matter of having simply been a participant in a nearly passive process.? Giovanni started this thread in dismay over? the fact that his students resent being asked to work for their grade, or that the boundaries were not labeled clearly enough.? I believe there was once a time that grades were given for how far a student exceeded the minimum and that competition drove the definition of "A" work.? Apparently today we can't allow competition to season the mush that is served as education.? Why should students be accountable for academic fitness if they are to enter a business world that is also so unfit that it is being 'bailed out' by government funny-money?

The children who are my peers would claim to be very sociable; the "social networks" are buzzing with activity.? That the content is mostly inane and meaningless is of secondary importance.? What is relevant is that each human node of humanity's collective graph is establishing connections and submitting themselves to the group.? It simply doesn't make sense that "plagiarism" is wrong: If any? answer exists that google can cough up, then Giovanni should be happy his student has collected those works into a single result.? If that result does not answer the question, then adjust the question - to one which better appreciates the answer.? I believe this group delusion is a coping mechanism for the fact that the majority is simply unable to keep up with the pace of change.? 

Anna asked, "How are people supposed to learn if not surrounded by different people?"? I suggest that the group is learning, but the individuals are losing their identity to the group.? This thread about education has focussed on how to make the individual more productive.? Who are the individuals currently driving the world today?? What would be their interest in educating the masses?? It is more profitable to manage the herd as a statistical model with low variance from the mean than to address a population of reasoning thinkers.? Those few exceptions which rise to the top of the current system can be extracted and carefully polished to provide the next generation of leaders (aka herd managers).

Education to set people free is a serious threat to established society.? Whether there are literal humans drivers of society or there are forces balanced about social equilibrium, there is a great deal of inertia to overcome if you/we seek to take humanity to the next local maxima.

_______________________________________________
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extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


_______________________________________________
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 00:17:01 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:47:01 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
	mylife?
In-Reply-To: <01DA79BD7D17453391A5F9EC05B1A4CF@DFC68LF1>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<01DA79BD7D17453391A5F9EC05B1A4CF@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812211617i53ef853et102f009ec824a9ea@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/22 Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>:
> Love the T-shirt review of the God character in the Old Testament story.
>
>
> Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

It's a quote from the God Delusion of course, a decent book, worth a
read. I found it a bit light on in the end; I admire Dawkins' passion,
but would have liked a bit more substance, a bit less of oh man those
goddies give me the shits. And of course, it seems to merely polarize
people, a great example of preaching to the choir :-)

The t-shirt is a bit too confrontational even for me, and I'm happy to
label myself an Atheist, no fuzziness about it. The t-shirt statement
is true, of course, but I don't think I'd like wearing it around the
place. It'd be like wearing a t-shirt that says "Fuck You", it's just
kind of unpleasant to everyone around you.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:01 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
> mylife?
>
> Apparently Richard Dawkins sells t-shirts!
>
> http://richarddawkins.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1
>
> Also, check out the excellent scarlet-A badges and stickers and stuff:
>
> http://richarddawkins.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2
>
> Good Newtonmass cheer all round.
>
> --
> Emlyn
>
> http://emlynoregan.com - my home
> http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com
> - downshifting and ranting _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 22 00:01:30 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:01:30 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Space technology
In-Reply-To: <mailman.43.1229593136.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <939767.22339.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I have uncovered footage of a new British space initiative - unfortunately, although the solid rocket boosters separate the main fuel tank failed to detach with unfortunate consequences.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pJdrlWR-yFM&feature=dir

Guess UK astronauts will be dependent on taking US citizenship and joining NASA for a while :)


      


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 00:53:58 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:53:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, I was excited to see this.  One of the commenters on Slashdot linked
> to this article by the Economist giving a rather sobering account of the
> economics of space solar
> power: http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12673299
>
> It seems like *someone* in the transition team has looked at this, but no
> indication if a serious look has been given to it or not.  I added to
> Keith's wiki my question about opportunity cost: whether the same money for
> space solar power we might be better off instead investing in terrestrial
> sources of power.  While it true that space satellites would be able
> to receive five times as much solar energy as on the earth, would it be
> cheaper just to produce five times as many solar panels on the earth with
> the same amount of money?  Or investing in wind farms or nuclear power
> plants?
> Kevin

Dr. David MacKay (top of the list when you Google his name) has a good
work on the problems of trying to collect renewable energy on earth.

it largely depends on the cost to lift power sat parts to GEO.  The
advantages are not just in the power multiple, but in the fact that
the energy is steady, no clouds, no wind stopping, i.e. no storage.
The other advantage is that you don't have to build massive and very
expensive lines from the southwest to the mid west and east.  You just
plunk a rectenna down close to the load.

If you can haul the parts up on a space elevator, there is no question
that power sats are the less expensive approach.  If you have to haul
the parts up on rockets, it's marginal.  The hybrid methods of using
rockets to suborbital and lasers to kick the payload into GEO meets
the penny a kWh requirement.  Of course the old method of developing
extraterrestrial materials works best of all, but there is not enough
time to develop space industry.  It's not entirely obvious that any
long term energy solution is needed.  If I were confident the
singularly would get here before famines and resource wars I wouldn't
worry about it.  But I can't put a firm date on either.  The
consequences of running out of energy are really dire.  Some models
show the population dropping a hundred million a year, bottoming out
at 1-2 billion.

Keith


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 04:06:40 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:36:40 +1030
Subject: [ExI] walmart again
In-Reply-To: <00E81F0A6F11415ABBF7C6ACF90F6B85@spike>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081216220249.0253a0c0@satx.rr.com>
	<028F66DF0B3B4569B8E85C5ABA1C1DCC@DFC68LF1>
	<bf3acbfc0812180138w2aded57cr1dcea99822ae5dfe@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812180327u1f0a0c65r28364a030f338350@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812181111w6c1f48b4o5d4af4cf2e141ceb@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812181946s61e0c4ecoea1066d412f380ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812190001o5e6cebf3r7d56c915f3ae53e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1229731527.13556.114.camel@hayek>
	<07E03BE492E44D209689D6590724182A@spike>
	<00E81F0A6F11415ABBF7C6ACF90F6B85@spike>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812212006k500aec4fj59fd4a3351a027ff@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe you need this?

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/golfshirts/6616/

2008/12/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
>
> I began doing all my shopping online approximately the minute it became an
> option to do so, sometime back in the 90s.  This allowed me to eliminate the
> last venue in which I routinely came into actual contact with the
> proletariat.  Proletariat other than myself I mean, and my family.  And my
> friends.  And my colleagues.  But I could avoid contact with proles other
> than these.
>
> By bad planning and business trips I found myself in need of a ten dollars
> or less gag gift for an office party so I went to Walmart.  I have heard
> many criticisms of Walmart, some from posters on this list, but I found my
> own mileage varied.  For instance, some have said they felt dirty after
> shopping there, felt the need to go home and shower.  I saw the various
> house fraus with butts a meter wide in stretch pants, the broken down
> geezers, the usual examples of that demographic of society, and it made me
> feel clean all over.  Compared to them, you know.  I felt the need to rush
> home and roll in the mud for an hour.  But I felt so inadequate in the geek
> department: many at Walmart were even less fashionable than I.  I feel the
> need to get my geek on.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 04:50:49 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:50:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "Playboy economic theory"
Message-ID: <2d6187670812212050l12462da2kd07006f8feef1177@mail.gmail.com>

This is different:

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/11/18/in-search-of-an-economic-indicator-the-playmate-index/

John
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 08:05:58 2008
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:05:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Playboy economic theory"
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812212050l12462da2kd07006f8feef1177@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187670812212050l12462da2kd07006f8feef1177@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b9887c80812220005i105edf79wf19b51df205d5854@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:50 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> This is different:
>
>
> http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/11/18/in-search-of-an-economic-indicator-the-playmate-index/
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
2951 Derby Street #139
Berkeley, CA 94705
www.hotlux.com/angel.htm
www.grassroutestravel.com

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 10:51:30 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:51:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> The
> consequences of running out of energy are really dire.  Some models
> show the population dropping a hundred million a year, bottoming out
> at 1-2 billion.

Sounds like a deep ecologist dream coming true... :-)

Stefano Vaj


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 12:27:26 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:27:26 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the
	atheistinmylife?
In-Reply-To: <2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/22 Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com>:

> Yes there is.  It's easy - one can simply ignore Christ-mass (I've done it
> for 25 years).  And If I didn't grow up in a cultural Christian household to
> begin with, there would be nothing to ignore.  Even with the secular
> components that have been added to Christ-mass, many "other" religious
> groups do not do Christ-mass.

This is actually hard to do at this time of year, even as an atheist
in a mostly secular country. People say "have a good Christmas" and
you feel it requires at least a brief standard response, or no amount
of rationalisation will prevent you from looking like an dissocial
grump.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 15:33:44 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:33:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the
	atheistinmylife?
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/12/22 Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com>:
> This is actually hard to do at this time of year, even as an atheist
> in a mostly secular country. People say "have a good Christmas" and
> you feel it requires at least a brief standard response, or no amount
> of rationalisation will prevent you from looking like an dissocial
> grump.

Good Jul/Yule or Natale/Natividad (dies natalis Christi, but also
Solis invicti) are OTOH perfectly fine.

Too bad for atheist native English speakers. :-)

Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 22 17:07:40 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:07:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>

At 04:33 PM 12/22/2008 +0100, Stefano wrote:

>Good Jul/Yule or Natale/Natividad (dies natalis Christi, but also
>Solis invicti) are OTOH perfectly fine.

"Feliz Navidad" works in Texas and other Mexico-adjacent states of 
the US, I imagine. It could be uttered with a sort of optimistic 
transhumanist air, I'm sure.

Damien Broderick




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 17:10:23 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:10:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 3:51 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The
>> consequences of running out of energy are really dire.  Some models
>> show the population dropping a hundred million a year, bottoming out
>> at 1-2 billion.
>
> Sounds like a deep ecologist dream coming true... :-)

I talked to one of them last week.  He will not speak favorably about
any solution to the energy crisis because he *wants* the population to
drop like a stone from famine and wars.

The only positive thing is that such people will probably be first
against the wall in a real breakdown.

Keith


From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 17:33:22 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:33:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812220933x55b51475tbfe375c870fd1b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> it largely depends on the cost to lift power sat parts to GEO.


http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php#pricing_and_performance

It's probably the most realistic near-term method, unless we're looking to
NASA, ESA, etc.  Looking at the numbers, if we can somehow do this from a
lower orbit it would be much cheaper.  I know a low earth orbit would have
some of the same disadvantages as on earth: only twelve hours of sunshine a
day.  Someone mentioned a sun-synchronized orbit, but I don't see how that
is possible.  The satellite would have to orbit the earth once every year,
which would be way to slow and, to my knowledge, much higher than GEO.  But
it seems that full GEO isn't necessary, we could tolerate a couple hours of
night every day, and the costs savings would probably add up when you're
doing this on a large scale.


>  The
> advantages are not just in the power multiple, but in the fact that
> the energy is steady, no clouds, no wind stopping, i.e. no storage.
> The other advantage is that you don't have to build massive and very
> expensive lines from the southwest to the mid west and east.  You just
> plunk a rectenna down close to the load.


I guess I just don't have a rubric to compare costs here.  But yeah, storage
is a big problem here on earth.  The other issue, I think, is how *light*
they can make the SPS's.  Some of the proposals I've seen (sorry, I can't
find the links right now) don't use solar powers at all, but mirrors to some
device that directly turns visible light radiation into microwaves.

But the solar constant is on average 1366 W/square meter.  There's just no
more energy out there from the sun than that at the distance of the Earth (1
AU).  That's our upper bound of what we could expect.  That's 732 square m
of panels/reflectors to transmit 1GW.


>
>
> If you can haul the parts up on a space elevator, there is no question
> that power sats are the less expensive approach.  If you have to haul
> the parts up on rockets, it's marginal.


I think that's the show-shopper here.  Rocket technology is here and now.  I
think even if we could build a space elevator, even a partial one, it would
take too long to build the technology.  Honestly, to save us from the energy
crisis, I think at least part of the system needs to be up and transmitting
power within twenty years, and even that might be stretching it.  Some
experts believe that we've already reached peak oil.


>  The hybrid methods of using
> rockets to suborbital and lasers to kick the payload into GEO meets
> the penny a kWh requirement.


Except, you know NASA, it would take twenty years to research laser
propulsion before they can approve writing a report on it.


>  Of course the old method of developing
> extraterrestrial materials works best of all, but there is not enough
> time to develop space industry.


Has anyone considered pumping hydrocarbons, methane and ethane, from Titan?
 We know the lakes are there, the trouble is it would take a long time for
us to get anything back from it.  The advantages are that Titan has a
smaller gravity well than the Moon, and the interplanetary transport network
could cause it to cost nearly nothing to transport fuel ships there and
back.  Of course, we haven't solved the problem of cost to orbit....


>  It's not entirely obvious that any
> long term energy solution is needed.  If I were confident the
> singularly would get here before famines and resource wars I wouldn't
> worry about it.  But I can't put a firm date on either.  The
> consequences of running out of energy are really dire.  Some models
> show the population dropping a hundred million a year, bottoming out
> at 1-2 billion.
>
> Keith


I know.  This is stuff we should have been working on since the 70's, but
instead forward their problems into the future.  BTW, I'm not confident that
a singularity will ever happen.

Kevin
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From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 19:12:32 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:12:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] My resignation from the WTA / H+ Board
In-Reply-To: <325BA457CE5F45D5B20584DD2F626BB0@spike>
References: <1fa8c3b90812191009h20f9617ocf06b179eeb42fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812191824o3d85d83na31fca7163df4748@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812200834q7ae3a728w481f7555e912ccb5@mail.gmail.com>
	<55ad6af70812200947p6f1446d9yd70258941317683@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201000y584e0401hc5e00a621d2e2969@mail.gmail.com>
	<325BA457CE5F45D5B20584DD2F626BB0@spike>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812221112o1dc996dv6b17ef9f4a30bdff@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 11:46 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>        From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin H
>
> ...  Keith Henson has been making proposals about solar power satellites
> for
> some time now and thus far it seems *no one* has even bothered to check his
> work...Kevin
>
>
> Oy, not so Kevin.  I have looked at Keith's proposals and I have found
> nothing wrong with anything, not one calculation amiss, nada, all perfectly
> feasible technically.  I just haven't the foggiest clue how to sell
> something like this to the people who have the money to make it happen.  If
> I understood politics I would have a big corner office with a wooden desk.
>
> spike



Thanks Spike.  I've been looking and looking at it, but there's still a lot
I have to learn :)

Kevin
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 23 00:31:40 2008
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:31:40 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <mailman.66.1229973156.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <636288.45250.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Kevin H wrote
"But the solar constant is on average 1366 W/square meter.  There's just no
more energy out there from the sun than that at the distance of the Earth (1AU).  That's our upper bound of what we could expect.  That's 732 square m of panels/reflectors to transmit 1GW."

Kevin, I checked David MacKay's work over the weekend - when you analyse earth figures, most renewable electricity and biodiesel schemes produce from 0.5-2W/square m when averaged over a year. Current best performance by German photovoltaics is 5W/sq m. As to drive a current car 50km takes about 40kWh of energy according to MacKay, it take a few hundred square m just to power this - the average Brit's daily travel (let alone the average American's).

 Space-based power generation is colossally more efficient than earth-based renewables, but the killer is the launch cost. Keith said that with rockets it's economically marginal, but with better launch costs (laser launch partway) it is worth it, and when you reach ultra-low cost launch like space elevators it becomes the obvious option. The problem is developing the better launch systems costs money, which isn't justified by the current size of the space launch market, which is restricted because of high launch costs.....

Until we break out of the current vicious circle by someone saying "we need to develop a major launch capability to do X" then solar power satellites are marginal. If people are convinced solar power satellites are the way ahead, then developing new launch systems looks massively worthwhile. Addressing these connected problems has been a major focus of space activists like Keith. If the people trying to lobby the Obama team are successful, maybe we can get a programme set up to cut through the problem by funding the whole thing through, or introducing a huge financial incentive for power satellites together with tax credits for developing cheaper launch systems. (Massive govt tender or market-driven solution, whichever floats your ideological boat or whichever looks more likely to get people employed during the current economic hard times). 

Keith - for comparison, what's the amount of power generated per square metre of rectenna? From the figures I've seen on the net, a 5GW power sat is expected to have the energy picked up by a 10 x 14km rectenna, but I don't know if it's a perfect ellipse or not. Anyway, the rectenna uses land far more efficiently than most earth renewables, with much less need for load balancing. Also, the land the rectenna is over can be used to grow crops on or build hydro reservoirs for, even if people don't want to live under it. Therefore, from a land efficiency viewpoint, space solar power is actually a winner for population-dense or land-poor nations, and still a good idea all round.

Tom


      


From rpicone at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 10:08:50 2008
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:08:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812220933x55b51475tbfe375c870fd1b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812220933x55b51475tbfe375c870fd1b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ffcf8fff0812230208w70b7386ep460df21bf1eec1f0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> it largely depends on the cost to lift power sat parts to GEO.
>
>
> http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php#pricing_and_performance
>
> It's probably the most realistic near-term method, unless we're looking to
> NASA, ESA, etc.  Looking at the numbers, if we can somehow do this from a
> lower orbit it would be much cheaper.  I know a low earth orbit would have
> some of the same disadvantages as on earth: only twelve hours of sunshine a
> day.
>

I'd think it'd be much much worse than on earth, you would need several
rectennas per satellite, driving up the costs greatly.  I'd expect that
atmospheric absorption of the microwaves would start to play a much bigger
role when you're forced to use extreme angles as well, which would negate a
lot of what energy savings you're getting from the height alone.  Unless I'm
missing something, a low earth orbit would be the worst of both worlds,
intermittent power generation at a relatively low efficiency combined with
extremely high costs.



> Someone mentioned a sun-synchronized orbit, but I don't see how that is
> possible.  The satellite would have to orbit the earth once every year,
> which would be way to slow and, to my knowledge, much higher than GEO.  But
> it seems that full GEO isn't necessary, we could tolerate a couple hours of
> night every day, and the costs savings would probably add up when you're
> doing this on a large scale.
>

Remember, GEO isn't just about distance, it's about actually being able to
synch with the ground...  A couple hours may not seem like a huge deal, but
if an object is orbitting 15 times a day like the ISS, and you only get
efficient power generation at, say, an angle less than 30 degrees, then a
given rectenna only is capable of receiving about 4 hours of power a day.
These are spaced out relatively evenly throughout the day

Lower orbits degrade much more quickly anyway,



>
>
>>  The
>> advantages are not just in the power multiple, but in the fact that
>> the energy is steady, no clouds, no wind stopping, i.e. no storage.
>> The other advantage is that you don't have to build massive and very
>> expensive lines from the southwest to the mid west and east.  You just
>> plunk a rectenna down close to the load.
>
>
> I guess I just don't have a rubric to compare costs here.  But yeah,
> storage is a big problem here on earth.  The other issue, I think, is how
> *light* they can make the SPS's.  Some of the proposals I've seen (sorry, I
> can't find the links right now) don't use solar powers at all, but mirrors
> to some device that directly turns visible light radiation into microwaves.
>
> But the solar constant is on average 1366 W/square meter.  There's just no
> more energy out there from the sun than that at the distance of the Earth (1
> AU).  That's our upper bound of what we could expect.  That's 732 square m
> of panels/reflectors to transmit 1GW.
>
>
>>
>>
>> If you can haul the parts up on a space elevator, there is no question
>> that power sats are the less expensive approach.  If you have to haul
>> the parts up on rockets, it's marginal.
>
>
> I think that's the show-shopper here.  Rocket technology is here and now.
>  I think even if we could build a space elevator, even a partial one, it
> would take too long to build the technology.  Honestly, to save us from the
> energy crisis, I think at least part of the system needs to be up and
> transmitting power within twenty years, and even that might be stretching
> it.  Some experts believe that we've already reached peak oil.
>
>
>>  The hybrid methods of using
>> rockets to suborbital and lasers to kick the payload into GEO meets
>> the penny a kWh requirement.
>
>
> Except, you know NASA, it would take twenty years to research laser
> propulsion before they can approve writing a report on it.
>
>
>>  Of course the old method of developing
>> extraterrestrial materials works best of all, but there is not enough
>> time to develop space industry.
>
>
> Has anyone considered pumping hydrocarbons, methane and ethane, from Titan?
>  We know the lakes are there, the trouble is it would take a long time for
> us to get anything back from it.  The advantages are that Titan has a
> smaller gravity well than the Moon, and the interplanetary transport network
> could cause it to cost nearly nothing to transport fuel ships there and
> back.  Of course, we haven't solved the problem of cost to orbit....
>
>
>>  It's not entirely obvious that any
>> long term energy solution is needed.  If I were confident the
>> singularly would get here before famines and resource wars I wouldn't
>> worry about it.  But I can't put a firm date on either.  The
>> consequences of running out of energy are really dire.  Some models
>> show the population dropping a hundred million a year, bottoming out
>> at 1-2 billion.
>>
>> Keith
>
>
> I know.  This is stuff we should have been working on since the 70's, but
> instead forward their problems into the future.  BTW, I'm not confident that
> a singularity will ever happen.
>
> Kevin
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From rpicone at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 10:21:39 2008
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:21:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <ffcf8fff0812230208w70b7386ep460df21bf1eec1f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812220933x55b51475tbfe375c870fd1b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<ffcf8fff0812230208w70b7386ep460df21bf1eec1f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ffcf8fff0812230221w6ba5b4ebg994fd502766671a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Robert Picone <rpicone at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>> it largely depends on the cost to lift power sat parts to GEO.
>>
>>
>> http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php#pricing_and_performance
>>
>> It's probably the most realistic near-term method, unless we're looking to
>> NASA, ESA, etc.  Looking at the numbers, if we can somehow do this from a
>> lower orbit it would be much cheaper.  I know a low earth orbit would have
>> some of the same disadvantages as on earth: only twelve hours of sunshine a
>> day.
>>
>
> I'd think it'd be much much worse than on earth, you would need several
> rectennas per satellite, driving up the costs greatly.  I'd expect that
> atmospheric absorption of the microwaves would start to play a much bigger
> role when you're forced to use extreme angles as well, which would negate a
> lot of what energy savings you're getting from the height alone.  Unless I'm
> missing something, a low earth orbit would be the worst of both worlds,
> intermittent power generation at a relatively low efficiency combined with
> extremely high costs.
>
>
>
>> Someone mentioned a sun-synchronized orbit, but I don't see how that is
>> possible.  The satellite would have to orbit the earth once every year,
>> which would be way to slow and, to my knowledge, much higher than GEO.  But
>> it seems that full GEO isn't necessary, we could tolerate a couple hours of
>> night every day, and the costs savings would probably add up when you're
>> doing this on a large scale.
>>
>
> Remember, GEO isn't just about distance, it's about actually being able to
> synch with the ground...  A couple hours may not seem like a huge deal, but
> if an object is orbitting 15 times a day like the ISS, and you only get
> efficient power generation at, say, an angle less than 30 degrees, then a
> given rectenna only is capable of receiving about 4 hours of power a day.
> These are spaced out relatively evenly throughout the day
>
> Lower orbits degrade much more quickly anyway,
>
>
>

Heh, that somehow got sent mid-typing, but I suppose the thought was pretty
much as complete as it was going to get other than clarifying that it is my
understanding that ion thrusters can be used relatively cheaply to transit
to a higher orbit when compared to the equivelant pure launch cost.
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From dagonweb at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 11:38:24 2008
From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:38:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>

> The only positive thing is that such people will probably be first
> against the wall in a real breakdown.
>

I want nobody against a wall, period, but I think we should keep a close eye
on
these people, as a society and through our governments. These people have
means
and motive for mischief and I don't trust people with these ideas, as surely
as I wouldn't
trust those leather-booted angry young men singing, throwing leaflets and
cursing at the
bolsjewiks at those neurenberg beer halls.

I know a girl, love her to death and always will, who says* blank faced* the
world is being
raped by human expansion, industry and technological progress - and that the
world
would be better off it 95% of humanity died, one way or another. My
clarifying that this
would in itself probably finish of the world, or describing the misery
people would suffer
in the process, or that we have alternatives - doesn't make any impression.
Worse,
while she still considers me a very intimate friend, she now considers
technological
progress and wrong and even IF it provided an alternative, still wrong,
because.

I think this is a class of people who have started confusing being excluded
at some
levels by a stratified system, are starting to hate the world instead of the
forces that
cause stratification and disparity. I think she somehow senses she isn't
fully benefiting
from modern society and hence she misattributes this failure to technology
itself.
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 15:29:50 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:29:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812230729m4f181b02xf2329a37b26d7385@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Dagon Gmail <dagonweb at gmail.com> wrote:

> I know a girl, love her to death and always will, who says* blank faced*the world is being
> raped by human expansion, industry and technological progress - and that
> the world
> would be better off it 95% of humanity died, one way or another. My
> clarifying that this
> would in itself probably finish of the world, or describing the misery
> people would suffer
> in the process, or that we have alternatives - doesn't make any impression.
>


One part of it is the confusion between means and ends, since most arguments
against overpopulation have something to do with the idea that by
controlling births a better quality of life can be achieved for the
remaining children, and/or their parents, and if they are not part of the
scenario anymore the point becomes quite moot.

In Milan, the municipality is taking active measure to make the traffic
*worse*, assuming that this way people would be more reluctant to use their
cars (as opposed to, say, the underground or their feet). Now, the purpose
of avoiding that people make excessive use of their cars is to improve the
circulation and the traffic!

I think this is a class of people who have started confusing being excluded
> at some
> levels by a stratified system, are starting to hate the world instead of
> the forces that
> cause stratification and disparity.


Mmhhh, I think this is a little too schematic an explanation.

There are many people who have no reason whatsoever to complain about such
forces, being in fact *favoured" at many level by the current "stratified
system" and "disparity", and still think exactly along the same lines.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 18:49:24 2008
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:49:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Bury me with my cell-phone?
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <502338.27794.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What this tells us about the current myths on death and the afterlife ?
?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28182292//wid/11915829?GT1=40006
?
Maybe people should be uploaded via cell-phone...


--- On Tue, 12/23/08, Dagon Gmail <dagonweb at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Dagon Gmail <dagonweb at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 5:38 AM





The only positive thing is that such people will probably be first
against the wall in a real breakdown.

I want nobody against a wall, period, but I think we should keep a close eye on
these people, as a society and through our governments. These people have means
and motive for mischief and I don't trust people with these ideas, as surely as I wouldn't
trust those leather-booted angry young men singing, throwing leaflets and cursing at the
bolsjewiks at those neurenberg beer halls. 

I know a girl, love her to death and always will, who says blank faced the world is being
raped by human expansion, industry and technological progress - and that the world
would be better off it 95% of humanity died, one way or another. My clarifying that this
would in itself probably finish of the world, or describing the misery people would suffer
in the process, or that we have alternatives - doesn't make any impression. Worse,
while she still considers me a very intimate friend, she now considers technological 
progress and wrong and even IF it provided an alternative, still wrong, because. 

I think this is a class of people who have started confusing being excluded at some
levels by a stratified system, are starting to hate the world instead of the forces that
cause stratification and disparity. I think she somehow senses she isn't fully benefiting
from modern society and hence she misattributes this failure to technology itself. 


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      
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From benboc at lineone.net  Wed Dec 24 00:03:23 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:03:23 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
 my life?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.66.1229973156.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.66.1229973156.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <49517C4B.7080504@lineone.net>

Stathis Papaioannou" <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

 >2008/12/22 Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com>:
 >
 >> > Yes there is.  It's easy - one can simply ignore Christ-mass (I've 
done it
 >> > for 25 years).  And If I didn't grow up in a cultural Christian 
household to
 >> > begin with, there would be nothing to ignore.  Even with the secular
 >> > components that have been added to Christ-mass, many "other" religious
 >> > groups do not do Christ-mass.
 >
 >This is actually hard to do at this time of year, even as an atheist
 >in a mostly secular country. People say "have a good Christmas" and
 >you feel it requires at least a brief standard response, or no amount
 >of rationalisation will prevent you from looking like an dissocial
 >grump.

As an 'anti-christmasite' myself, I find it quite easy, with a little 
organisation.
Make sure all your friends and family know that you don't do Xmas, check 
out the local shops and supermarkets opening times and susceptibility to 
<shudder> carol singers, get your supplies in before the crazy rush 
starts, and DO wish people a Merry Xmas.
What's the problem with other people having a good time with a ritual 
that you don't share?  It doesn't bother me, as long as people know not 
to give or expect presents and cards.  Just because I don't want 
anything to do with a commercially hi-jacked festival of a religion that 
has torture and human sacrifice as it's main theme doesn't mean that I 
want to spoil the fun that other people get from it.

(The fact that I'm a dissocial grump is another matter entirely, nothing 
to do with Xmas).

Ben Zaiboc


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 00:34:56 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:04:56 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/23 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
> At 04:33 PM 12/22/2008 +0100, Stefano wrote:
>
>> Good Jul/Yule or Natale/Natividad (dies natalis Christi, but also
>> Solis invicti) are OTOH perfectly fine.
>
> "Feliz Navidad" works in Texas and other Mexico-adjacent states of the US, I
> imagine. It could be uttered with a sort of optimistic transhumanist air,
> I'm sure.
>
> Damien Broderick

Doesn't that just mean "Merry Christmas"?

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 24 01:11:33 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:11:33 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>

At 11:04 AM 12/24/2008 +1030, Emlyn wrote:

> > "Feliz Navidad" works in Texas and other Mexico-adjacent states 
> of the US, I
> > imagine. It could be uttered with a sort of optimistic transhumanist air,
>
>Doesn't that just mean "Merry Christmas"?

Not at all. For a long time I thought it had to do with Felix the 
Cat, one of my favorite cartoon animals, but being here in San 
Antonio surrounded by military personnel I see that it's somehow 
related to Fearless Dads in the Navy, most of them apparently 
Hispanic or black.

Damien Broderick




From fauxever at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 24 01:11:20 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:11:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
	my life?
Message-ID: <FFDE9CC22D514845AD36B769DB2D8934@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "ben" <benboc at lineone.net>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:03 PM

> As an 'anti-christmasite' myself, I find it quite easy, with a little
 organisation. Make sure all your friends and family know that you don't do 
Xmas, check out the local shops and supermarkets opening times and 
susceptibility to <shudder> carol singers, get your supplies in before the 
crazy rush starts, and DO wish people a Merry Xmas.

Well, I guess I'm more of an "anti-ImaginaryFriendMas" type (I am not making 
this into a contest - just sayin') because I see no reason for kowtowing at 
the very end.  However, on good Borg days, I'll go as far as wishing some 
people a Happy New Year.

But really - do I have any more reason to wish people a Merry Xmas than 
wishing them a Happy Hannukah or Holy Ramadan or Habari Gani?  If there's a 
reason, I don't get it, I guess ...

> What's the problem with other people having a good time with a ritual
 that you don't share?  It doesn't bother me, as long as people know not to 
give or expect presents and cards.  Just because I don't want  anything to 
do with a commercially hi-jacked festival of a religion that has torture and 
human sacrifice as its main theme doesn't mean that I
 want to spoil the fun that other people get from it.

I agree with you, except for the part about wishing people a Merry
Christmas.  I see no reason to do that, especially when there is the "Happy 
New Year" option.  I have even seen Happy New Year cards - without mention 
of any holy-days or anything remotely religious.

> (The fact that I'm a dissocial grump is another matter entirely, nothing 
> to do with Xmas).

Ha!  I can relate.  However, I tend to be more pleasant and social at this 
time of year than just about any other time - after all, I don't have
anything I HAVE to do ... I can even watch trashy movies (if I so choose) - 
simply enjoy my time off.  No pressure - no deadlines.  Ahhhhhhhhhh ...

Olga
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 01:40:41 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:10:41 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
	my life?
In-Reply-To: <FFDE9CC22D514845AD36B769DB2D8934@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <FFDE9CC22D514845AD36B769DB2D8934@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812231740r5c9cf962ra8a74627dc7bebe7@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/24 Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com>:
> From: "ben" <benboc at lineone.net>
> To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:03 PM
>
>> As an 'anti-christmasite' myself, I find it quite easy, with a little
>
> organisation. Make sure all your friends and family know that you don't do
> Xmas, check out the local shops and supermarkets opening times and
> susceptibility to <shudder> carol singers, get your supplies in before the
> crazy rush starts, and DO wish people a Merry Xmas.
>
> Well, I guess I'm more of an "anti-ImaginaryFriendMas" type (I am not making
> this into a contest - just sayin') because I see no reason for kowtowing at
> the very end.  However, on good Borg days, I'll go as far as wishing some
> people a Happy New Year.

Well, here's a little something that you can do for Newtonmass.

Read the wikipedia article on Sir Isaac himself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

There's some fascinating stuff in there. For instance, I didn't know
that he had a stint as an anti-counterfeiting super hero, while being
in charge of the Mint.

And, the contention is that he put more effort into Biblical
Hermeneutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics) than
into plain old science. Next time someone comes blathering to you
about bible codes, remember that Newton, of the physical laws, optics,
calculus, etc etc, couldn't find anything in the bible along those
lines, even though he really wanted to and even though he tried
really, really hard.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 24 01:33:15 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:33:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy
	theatheistinmylife?
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike><D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike><2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE695B89C79C4BD4A27E03E0CC37E47D@spike>


> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Stathis Papaioannou
>... what should I buy theatheistinmylife?
> 
> 2008/12/22 Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com>:
> 
> > Yes there is.  It's easy - one can simply ignore Christ-mass ...
> 
> This is actually hard to do at this time of year...no amount of
rationalisation will prevent you 
> from looking like an dissocial grump... Stathis Papaioannou


...Why, for fifty three years I've put up with it now,
I must stop christmas from coming!  But how?  

the Grinch


Consider the song:

Silent niiiight, hoooooly night...

How the heck do they figure that night was silent?  You know it was probably
noisy as all get out.  Consider:

	-The three wise guys whooping it up and carrying on, especially
since it was the first christmas.

	-Shepherds watching their flocks by night: depending on what one
includes in the verb "watching" you know the ewes probably made quite a
racket.  

	-Little drummer boys rump-a-pumping each other.  
 
	-An unidentified beast achieved climax while copulating during the
middle of the cloudless night: it came upon a midnight clear.  

	-We received notification that the assistant-gods were experimenting
with narcotics: angels we have heard on high  

	-The Whos down in Whoville with their wimwozzles and pantookers  

	-All the bowl games, such as the one at the colosseum between the
Roman Christians vs the Detroit Lions  

	-The cops out busting those who had a little too much christmas
cheer: god, arrest YE merry gentlemen

	-Of course they were getting ready for a big new year's celebration
that year, being not only a new century and a new millenium, but they were
able to get rid of that bothersome negative sign and begin counting forward
instead of backward  

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 24 02:31:57 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:31:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass... what should I buy the atheist in
	my life?
In-Reply-To: <49517C4B.7080504@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.66.1229973156.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<49517C4B.7080504@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <CE34888B41CD4B3E98A6FA9E4852BD93@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of ben
...
> Just because I don't want anything to do with a commercially 
> hi-jacked festival of a religion that has torture and human 
> sacrifice as it's main theme doesn't mean that I want to 
> spoil the fun that other people get from it... Ben Zaiboc

Ben, the commercial hi-jacking of christmas is what makes it enjoyable for
me.  It represents the heartwarming triumph of unbridled capitalism over the
darkness of superstition.  

Besides that, I suspect that it was actually the other way around.  Religion
incorporated hi-jacked what had been a secular celebration of the beginning
of the return of the sun to its high point in the sky.  I can imagine a
smart old time mathematically minded ancestor of modern extropians, who
recognized that what the local shaman or shawoman was selling was bullshit.
Perhaps she numbered stones and put them at the peak of the shadow from a
distant rock.  She may have recognized that the number of stones in a cycle
was about 365.  Even though she may have been unable to explain it, she knew
the story the sha-person was dishing was nonsense.  But the return of the
sun would still be a time of celebration and perhaps gift giving, long
before it was taken over by religion incorporated.

That being said, look at the triumph of technology every time we go into
Walmart.  With a single paycheck, even a modest one, modern people can buy a
ton of cheap junk, all because technology has given us super advanced
manufacturing.  We can extrapolate to future proles being able to buy ever
cheaper junk with ever smaller paychecks.  Cool!  

It fills me with hope for the future of humanity to see the almighty dollar
overpower the almighty imaginary creator.

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 24 02:34:54 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:34:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike><D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike><2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z><f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com><710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <83CA520A6AAC4A65BB99B632581FA6D5@spike>

...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick

> > > "Feliz Navidad" works in Texas and other Mexico-adjacent states...
... 
> ...it's somehow related to Fearless Dads in the Navy... 
> Damien Broderick


My three-year-old niece thought it was "Please naughty dog," perhaps asking
the mangy beast to go away.

{8^D






From warlordbcm1 at yahoo.com.br  Wed Dec 24 02:40:35 2008
From: warlordbcm1 at yahoo.com.br (Filipe Sobreira)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:40:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Maybe, but it DOES mean "Merry Christmas" in spanish.

My 2c

Filipe

 "Adtollite portas principes vestras 
Et elevamini portae aeternali 
Et introibit rex gloriae. 
Quis est iste rex gloriae?" 
(Psalm 23(24):7?8a)




________________________________
De: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
Para: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Enviadas: Ter?a-feira, 23 de Dezembro de 2008 22:11:33
Assunto: Re: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...

At 11:04 AM 12/24/2008 +1030, Emlyn wrote:

> > "Feliz Navidad" works in Texas and other Mexico-adjacent states of the US, I
> > imagine. It could be uttered with a sort of optimistic transhumanist air,
> 
> Doesn't that just mean "Merry Christmas"?

Not at all. For a long time I thought it had to do with Felix the Cat, one of my favorite cartoon animals, but being here in San Antonio surrounded by military personnel I see that it's somehow related to Fearless Dads in the Navy, most of them apparently Hispanic or black.

Damien Broderick


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      Veja quais s?o os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! +Buscados
http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Dec 24 04:00:37 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:00:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812220933x55b51475tbfe375c870fd1b5@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812220933x55b51475tbfe375c870fd1b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1230091580_22909@s8.cableone.net>

At 10:33 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Keith Henson 
><<mailto:hkeithhenson at gmail.com>hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>it largely depends on the cost to lift power sat parts to GEO.
>
>
><http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php#pricing_and_performance>http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php#pricing_and_performance
>
>It's probably the most realistic near-term method, unless we're 
>looking to NASA, ESA, etc.  Looking at the numbers, if we can 
>somehow do this from a lower orbit it would be much cheaper.  I know 
>a low earth orbit would have some of the same disadvantages as on 
>earth: only twelve hours of sunshine a day.

You should look into the physics.  With high exhaust velocities it 
isn't significantly harder to get to GEO than to LEO.  In fact, the 
most interesting proposals don't bother with LEO at all.

>  Someone mentioned a sun-synchronized orbit, but I don't see how 
> that is possible.

Google.  410 for sun-synchronized orbit.  It's not useful for power though.

>The satellite would have to orbit the earth once every year, which 
>would be way to slow and, to my knowledge, much higher than 
>GEO.  But it seems that full GEO isn't necessary, we could tolerate 
>a couple hours of night every day, and the costs savings would 
>probably add up when you're doing this on a large scale.

The advantages of being in GEO far outweigh the problems of getting 
stuff there.

>  The
>advantages are not just in the power multiple, but in the fact that
>the energy is steady, no clouds, no wind stopping, i.e. no storage.
>The other advantage is that you don't have to build massive and very
>expensive lines from the southwest to the mid west and east.  You just
>plunk a rectenna down close to the load.
>
>
>I guess I just don't have a rubric to compare costs here.  But yeah, 
>storage is a big problem here on earth.  The other issue, I think, 
>is how *light* they can make the SPS's.  Some of the proposals I've 
>seen (sorry, I can't find the links right now) don't use solar 
>powers at all, but mirrors to some device that directly turns 
>visible light radiation into microwaves.

I don't think that is possible.

>But the solar constant is on average 1366 W/square meter.  There's 
>just no more energy out there from the sun than that at the distance 
>of the Earth (1 AU).  That's our upper bound of what we could 
>expect.  That's 732 square m of panels/reflectors to transmit 1GW.

1,000,000,000/1366 is 72300 square meters.  That's the collection 
surface at 100%.  For current PV cells it's more like 5 square km to get a GW.

>If you can haul the parts up on a space elevator, there is no question
>that power sats are the less expensive approach.  If you have to haul
>the parts up on rockets, it's marginal.
>
>
>I think that's the show-shopper here.  Rocket technology is here and now.

And too expensive to even consider.  Not to mention that the low 
payload mass fraction leads to ridiculous flight rates.  If you try 
to do a 100t/hr materials pipeline to GEO with conventional rockets, 
you have to launch something twice the size of a Saturn V ever 
hour!  If you just put that amount in LEO, it's still 7 or 8 launches a day.

>I think even if we could build a space elevator, even a partial one, 
>it would take too long to build the technology.

That's silly.  The "technology" is ROPE.  And motors to move the 
rope.  This really isn't rocket science.

>   Honestly, to save us from the energy crisis, I think at least 
> part of the system needs to be up and transmitting power within 
> twenty years, and even that might be stretching it.  Some experts 
> believe that we've already reached peak oil.

Twenty years is *way* too long.  To deal with the energy crisis we 
need to build a GW/day, perhaps twice that.  The proposal I have been 
working on envisions the materials pipeline and the dry dock for 
building power sats operational by 2015.

>  The hybrid methods of using
>rockets to suborbital and lasers to kick the payload into GEO meets
>the penny a kWh requirement.
>
>Except, you know NASA, it would take twenty years to research laser 
>propulsion before they can approve writing a report on it.

I don't expect this to be done by any US government agency.

>  Of course the old method of developing
>extraterrestrial materials works best of all, but there is not enough
>time to develop space industry.
>
>Has anyone considered pumping hydrocarbons, methane and ethane, from 
>Titan?  We know the lakes are there, the trouble is it would take a 
>long time for us to get anything back from it.  The advantages are 
>that Titan has a smaller gravity well than the Moon, and the 
>interplanetary transport network could cause it to cost nearly 
>nothing to transport fuel ships there and back.  Of course, we 
>haven't solved the problem of cost to orbit....

If you work out the energy to get from Titan to the earth, I believe 
you will find that hydrocarbons don't have the energy needed to move 
them that far.

>  It's not entirely obvious that any
>long term energy solution is needed.  If I were confident the
>singularly would get here before famines and resource wars I wouldn't
>worry about it.  But I can't put a firm date on either.  The
>consequences of running out of energy are really dire.  Some models
>show the population dropping a hundred million a year, bottoming out
>at 1-2 billion.
>
>Keith
>
>I know.  This is stuff we should have been working on since the 
>70's, but instead forward their problems into the future.

In late 1975 a team from the just formed L-5 Society went to the 
limits to growth conference held that year near Houston.  Dr. Peter 
Vajk (physics) was with us so we had the credentials to present power 
satellites as long term solution to the energy (resource) limits and 
to be taken seriously.  We were nearly kicked out.  It isn't that 
people disbelieve that there is a solution to such problems, the 
_DON'T WANT A SOLUTION_.  A substantial fraction, perhaps even a 
majority of the elite, want a collapse.  Exactly why isn't easy for 
me to pick out of their rationalizations.  Guilt perhaps, I just 
don't know.  I had another of these experiences last week.

>BTW, I'm not confident that a singularity will ever happen.

I don't see any way we can avoid it.  Eventually we are going to make 
intelligence 2.0.  At that point, it isn't our problem any more.  If 
things work out well, humans will have the relation to our 
"offspring" that cats do to us.

If you can make a case this won't happen, please do.

Keith




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 24 04:15:21 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:15:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] global air traffic
Message-ID: <91A0B5F447D24D2C883B373F3826A9CB@spike>

Kewall!  Check this:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XBwjQsOEeg
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XBwjQsOEeg&eurl=http://geobent.blogspot.com
/2008/12/day-in-flight.html&feature=player_embedded>
&eurl=http://geobent.blogspot.com/2008/12/day-in-flight.html&feature=player_
embedded
 
spike
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From asyluman at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 04:14:38 2008
From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:14:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>

Wouldn't it mean something like "lucky birth" (perhaps referring to
immaculate conception)?  But why is there this whole concept of Netwonmass;
I don't think one gets the point across about the idea of Christmas or what
it has become by snarkily ridiculing it.  The atheist in my life doesn't
need anything for the holidays under the guise of some fake one.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Filipe Sobreira
<warlordbcm1 at yahoo.com.br>wrote:

> Maybe, but it DOES mean "Merry Christmas" in spanish.
>
> My 2c
>
> Filipe
>
> "Adtollite portas principes vestras
> Et elevamini portae aeternali
> Et introibit rex gloriae.
> Quis est iste rex gloriae?"
> (Psalm 23(24):7?8a)
>
> ------------------------------
> *De:* Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> *Para:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Enviadas:* Ter?a-feira, 23 de Dezembro de 2008 22:11:33
> *Assunto:* Re: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
>
> At 11:04 AM 12/24/2008 +1030, Emlyn wrote:
>
> > > "Feliz Navidad" works in Texas and other Mexico-adjacent states of the
> US, I
> > > imagine. It could be uttered with a sort of optimistic transhumanist
> air,
> >
> > Doesn't that just mean "Merry Christmas"?
>
> Not at all. For a long time I thought it had to do with Felix the Cat, one
> of my favorite cartoon animals, but being here in San Antonio surrounded by
> military personnel I see that it's somehow related to Fearless Dads in the
> Navy, most of them apparently Hispanic or black.
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> ------------------------------
> Veja quais s?o os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10<http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/>-
> Celebridades<http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/celebridades/>-
> M?sica<http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/m%C3%BAsica/>-
> Esportes<http://br.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/mail/*http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com/esportes/>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 05:02:47 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:32:47 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/24 Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com>:
> Wouldn't it mean something like "lucky birth" (perhaps referring to
> immaculate conception)?  But why is there this whole concept of Netwonmass;
> I don't think one gets the point across about the idea of Christmas or what
> it has become by snarkily ridiculing it.  The atheist in my life doesn't
> need anything for the holidays under the guise of some fake one.

It's just a bit of a nerdy joke, because Newton's birthday may have
been 25 december (it doesn't look as though that's entirely agreed
apon).

Christmas is fine, I like presents! But, if you are going to find
someone worthwhile thinking about who was born on 25 December, then
Jesus is in some very tough company. If I have to choose between
people who believed in wacky things, someone who also discovered how
rainbows work is getting my vote.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 05:05:55 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:05:55 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <83CA520A6AAC4A65BB99B632581FA6D5@spike>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<83CA520A6AAC4A65BB99B632581FA6D5@spike>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812232105o5f68870j49714df6928acba5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
>> ...it's somehow related to Fearless Dads in the Navy...
>> Damien Broderick
>
> My three-year-old niece thought it was "Please naughty dog," perhaps asking
> the mangy beast to go away.

Funny, I thought it was "police not a duck". This was after watching
PBS specials when I was young. Parents thought it was too cute and
wanted to send in the home videos to the collection agencies to cash
it in. I wonder where that prize money went. Hrm.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 24 05:18:09 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:18:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812232105o5f68870j49714df6928acba5@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<83CA520A6AAC4A65BB99B632581FA6D5@spike>
	<55ad6af70812232105o5f68870j49714df6928acba5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081223231500.02310370@satx.rr.com>

At 11:05 PM 12/23/2008 -0600, Bryan wrote:

>Funny, I thought it was "police not a duck".

Damn, you mean it's not about the heavy-breathing late night 
telephone sex commercials that promise a sultry stacked babe but hook 
you up with some fat old ho, you know, those fleecin' avid ads?

Damien Broderick




From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 05:22:20 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:22:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Dagon Gmail <dagonweb at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>  The only positive thing is that such people will probably be first
>> against the wall in a real breakdown.
>>
>
> I want nobody against a wall, period, but I think we should keep a close
> eye on
> these people, as a society and through our governments. These people have
> means
> and motive for mischief and I don't trust people with these ideas, as
> surely as I wouldn't
> trust those leather-booted angry young men singing, throwing leaflets and
> cursing at the
> bolsjewiks at those neurenberg beer halls.


I just wanted to mention, running off your post, that these people are
perhaps the least of our worries.  Just think what space solar power would
mean to all those countries, companies, government agencies, non-profit
groups, etc., etc., who, today, *depend* on things staying the way they
are.  Consider existing power plants, the people who own a stake in them,
the people who run them, the people who are employed by them; consider
foreign nations for whom their oil resources are their sole link to a
tolerable standard of living; and on and on.  There is more to fear from
desperate people than anyone else.  If Obama, by some stretch of the
imagination, decides to launch some kind of program to make space solar
power feasable, don't you see how many powerful interests such a move would
*rise up to oppose him?*  Just like anything else, there is so much favoring
the status quo.  Which makes what Keith just said sound suspicious to me:

"In late 1975 a team from the just formed L-5 Society went to the limits to
growth conference held that year near Houston.  Dr. Peter Vajk (physics) was
with us so we had the credentials to present power satellites as long term
solution to the energy (resource) limits and to be taken seriously.  We were
nearly kicked out.  It isn't that people disbelieve that there is a solution
to such problems, the _DON'T WANT A SOLUTION_.  A substantial fraction,
perhaps even a majority of the elite, want a collapse.  Exactly why isn't
easy for me to pick out of their rationalizations.  Guilt perhaps, I just
don't know.  I had another of these experiences last week."

I think when I hear things like this there is reason to be at least a little
cynical.  The political barriers may be more dire than the technological
ones.

*Kevin*
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Dec 24 05:00:17 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:00:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <636288.45250.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.66.1229973156.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<636288.45250.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1230095160_20734@s7.cableone.net>

At 05:31 PM 12/22/2008, Tom wrote:

>Keith - for comparison, what's the amount of power generated per 
>square metre of rectenna? From the figures I've seen on the net, a 
>5GW power sat is expected to have the energy picked up by a 10 x 
>14km rectenna, but I don't know if it's a perfect ellipse or not.

Close enough.  It's a circle projected on (typically) 45 deg north 
latitude earth surface.  The old designs used 230 W/m^2 (or 23 
mW/cm^2) in the center of the rectenna.  The power fall off is close 
enough to gaussian.  Eric Drexler proposed using different 
distribution called a "top hat" for the power beam.  This power level 
was selected partly for safety reasons, you get more power to your 
head at this frequency using your cell phone.  At some power level 
(10kW/m^2?), you cook ducks on the way through the beam.  At some 
(higher?) level the path through the ionosphere shorts out.

The area is close enough to 100 square km.  So the average power is 
5,000,000,000/100 x 1000 x1000 or 50 W/m^2.  A lot of this area is 
just to get the microwaves down to extremely low levels at the 
fence.  Eric's "top hat" power distribution puts a more constant 
level into a smaller area.

>Anyway, the rectenna uses land far more efficiently than most earth 
>renewables, with much less need for load balancing. Also, the land 
>the rectenna is over can be used to grow crops on or build hydro 
>reservoirs for, even if people don't want to live under it. 
>Therefore, from a land efficiency viewpoint, space solar power is 
>actually a winner for population-dense or land-poor nations, and 
>still a good idea all round.

Right.  There are large advantages to being able to put power sources 
close to the load.

Keith 



From fauxever at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 24 05:49:26 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:49:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike><2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z><f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com><710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com><736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com><a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C4FFAE1365B4E469173972F28ED7D01@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "Emlyn" <emlynoregan at gmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> Christmas is fine, I like presents! But, if you are going to find someone 
> worthwhile thinking about who was born on 25 December, then Jesus is in 
> some very tough company. If I have to choose between people who believed 
> in wacky things, someone who also discovered how rainbows work is getting 
> my vote.

I _still_ say Bah Humbug to the whole thing.

But if I _were_ to nominate someone, I would vote for someone slightly more 
flamboyant, sweet, and colorful and, maybe, just a tad disreputable.   Oh, 
yeah ... someone who would give the Pope the heebie-jeebies!  Someone like 
Quentin Crisp (born December 25, 2008).

Crisp brought self-actualization to an art, was both brave and poignant, 
spoke Crisperanto, and was a world-class wit.

Oh ... and he was an atheist.

Merry Crispmas!

Olga

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 06:07:16 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:07:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812232207q68e21ffdy9beec9548375b026@mail.gmail.com>

Emlyn wrote:
It's just a bit of a nerdy joke, because Newton's birthday may have
been 25 december (it doesn't look as though that's entirely agreed
apon).
>>>

Bible scholars believe Jesus was born around late September/early October
and this time of the year definitely makes more sense then late December.
But then the Roman Catholic Church was trying to supplant pagan holidays by
overlaying Christian celebrations onto them.  I'm afraid that Spike and
Emlyn will someday hold a "truly old-time" religious winter holiday
celebration (as part of a transhumanist conference) that will involve much
public drunkeness, overeating, idolatry, nakedness and even sexual
indulgence!  Tsk tsk...

I feel like the joke is on you and all transhumanists because Sir Isaac
Newton was an extremely devout Christian believer. LOL  But the man's genius
and personality compelled him (even to the neglect of eating, sleeping and
socializing) to carry out scientific research.  I recently read a biography
of the man and found Newton fascinating.  I wish we had cell samples and
could create several hundred clones of him.  I really believe it would move
technological progress forward.  I wonder how many of the Newton clones
would exhibit extreme religiousity? hmmm...

you continue:
Christmas is fine, I like presents! But, if you are going to find
someone worthwhile thinking about who was born on 25 December, then
Jesus is in some very tough company. If I have to choose between
people who believed in wacky things, someone who also discovered how
rainbows work is getting my vote.
>>>

Christmas is great for me because I enjoy giving gifts even more than
getting them (with the possible exception of $$$ gifts in the millions
should they come my way...).  The teachings of Jesus focused a great deal on
loving your neighbor and not being yet another a hypocrite.  It is a message
the world still needs to hear and so he gets my vote.

John Grigg  : )
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 24 06:24:54 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:24:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812232207q68e21ffdy9beec9548375b026@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670812232207q68e21ffdy9beec9548375b026@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081224002055.022e1cd0@satx.rr.com>

At 11:07 PM 12/23/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:

>Bible scholars believe Jesus was born around late September/early October

Non-bible scholars believe the whole thing was made up, like Zeus, 
Santa Claus and Xenu. You might as well believe Joseph Smith saw 
angels and golden plates and-- Oh, wait. Well, at least there's 
acceptable independent evidence that Smith *existed*.

Damien Broderick



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 24 06:16:05 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:16:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] creationism in britain
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081223231500.02310370@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike><D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike><2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z><f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com><710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com><83CA520A6AAC4A65BB99B632581FA6D5@spike><55ad6af70812232105o5f68870j49714df6928acba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223231500.02310370@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <A42410B9627149D4B2E88F9C635E0E97@spike>


Brits what is up with this?
 
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jVR3qvp_hgCVcZsLm4fO_
x9hgeqg

I thought this was a US only problem.

spike



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 12:36:51 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:06:51 +1030
Subject: [ExI] creationism in britain
In-Reply-To: <A42410B9627149D4B2E88F9C635E0E97@spike>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<83CA520A6AAC4A65BB99B632581FA6D5@spike>
	<55ad6af70812232105o5f68870j49714df6928acba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223231500.02310370@satx.rr.com>
	<A42410B9627149D4B2E88F9C635E0E97@spike>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812240436v50809d06h4b7411192386c93d@mail.gmail.com>

I think it's a beat up. I reckon the teachers were saying that it
should be discussed. If it were me, I would discuss it. "There's this
thing called Intelligent Design, it goes like this. It's wrong, can
you figure out why?" Something like that. Certainly a science class is
the right place to do some explicit immunisation against creationist
memes.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting

2008/12/24 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
> Brits what is up with this?
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jVR3qvp_hgCVcZsLm4fO_
> x9hgeqg
>
> I thought this was a US only problem.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 13:35:31 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:35:31 +1100
Subject: [ExI] creationism in britain
In-Reply-To: <A42410B9627149D4B2E88F9C635E0E97@spike>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<83CA520A6AAC4A65BB99B632581FA6D5@spike>
	<55ad6af70812232105o5f68870j49714df6928acba5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223231500.02310370@satx.rr.com>
	<A42410B9627149D4B2E88F9C635E0E97@spike>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812240535w3b57d6e0w10ca640040af7b34@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/24 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
> Brits what is up with this?
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jVR3qvp_hgCVcZsLm4fO_
> x9hgeqg
>
> I thought this was a US only problem.

Here is an article closer to the original source:

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/content/home-page-news/teachers-dismiss-calls-for-creationism-to-be-taugh.ashx

It certainly sounds pretty bad when you look at the actual questions
asked in the survey, listed at the end of the article. What isn't
explained is how the sample of teachers was obtained.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 14:48:22 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:48:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812240648o3937f83epd6a410bad433e64a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 3:40 AM, Filipe Sobreira
<warlordbcm1 at yahoo.com.br> wrote:
> Maybe, but it DOES mean "Merry Christmas" in spanish.

Come on. Were do you find the word "Christ" in it?

"Navidad" obviously comes from the Latin for "nativity", and nothing
but contemporary antonomasia suggests of whom. Ones should not confuse
meaning with usage.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From benboc at lineone.net  Wed Dec 24 15:53:24 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:53:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 63, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.95.1230093727.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.95.1230093727.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <49525AF4.1070507@lineone.net>

"Olga Bourlin" <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

 >Ha!  I can relate.  However, I tend to be more pleasant and social at 
this
 >time of year than just about any other time - after all, I don't have
 >anything I HAVE to do ... I can even watch trashy movies (if I so 
choose) -
 >simply enjoy my time off.  No pressure - no deadlines.  Ahhhhhhhhhh ...


Exactly.  I watch people getting in a tizzy as Xmas approaches, and try 
to persuade them that they don't have to even have Xmas, if it causes so 
much stress.  They almost always cave in to the pressure of tradition 
though (and marketing, which is mostly what it's all about).  It's funny 
(and confusing) that the Americans call it the 'holiday season', when 
most people don't actually go on holiday, and stress themselves out so 
much.  But we had that conversation last year.

Spike fnargled:

 >	-Of course they were getting ready for a big new year's celebration
 >that year, being not only a new century and a new millenium, but they were
 >able to get rid of that bothersome negative sign and begin counting 
forward
 >instead of backward

Hey, maybe we should be doing that!

Depending on whose calendar you use, we are anywhere between, 50 BS and 
5 BS (Before Singularity, or, for the more dubious, BBS, because they 
think the Singularity is BS), or 30 BF (Before Fusion.  Not so useful, 
because the year is always the same: 30 BF, until we actually get 
fusion, so that calendar will be pretty dumb until After Fusion: 30BF, 
30BF, 30BF, 30BF, 30BF.... F!!, 1AF, 2AF, ).  For the Complete 
Pessimists, we have the Extinction calendar, only BE needed there, 
because nobody will be around AE.

Pick your calendar, and let the confusion begin!

Spike again:

 > It fills me with hope for the future of humanity to see the almighty
 > dollar overpower the almighty imaginary creator.

Awww!
And here was me eagerly anticipating the advent of the Abundance 
Economy.  Now I have to dread it because it means a return to God-Squad 
domination.
Bugger.

Ben Zed


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Dec 24 16:17:51 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:17:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>

At 10:22 PM 12/23/2008, Kevin wrote:

snip

>I just wanted to mention, running off your post, that these people 
>are perhaps the least of our worries.  Just think what space solar 
>power would mean to all those countries, companies, government 
>agencies, non-profit groups, etc., etc., who, today, depend on 
>things staying the way they are.  Consider existing power plants, 
>the people who own a stake in them, the people who run them, the 
>people who are employed by them; consider foreign nations for whom 
>their oil resources are their sole link to a tolerable standard of 
>living; and on and on.  There is more to fear from desperate people 
>than anyone else.  If Obama, by some stretch of the imagination, 
>decides to launch some kind of program to make space solar power 
>feasable, don't you see how many powerful interests such a move 
>would rise up to oppose him?  Just like anything else, there is so 
>much favoring the status quo.

Last summer's oil spike was enough to convince a lot of people that 
the status quo isn't there any more.  Besides, if anyone takes the 
trouble to think about it, power sats make existing power plants very 
valuable.  Why?  We still need liquid fuels and power plants have 
everything you need to make them.  A typical power plant can be 
converted to a liquid fuel plant and make more money.

500MW is 500,000 kW.  8000 hr in a year.  4 billion kWh.   At 
$0.05/kWh that's $200 M a year.  Profit would be at best $20 M a year.

Converted to a liquid fuel plant, the former power plant would use 
the same amount of coal and turn out (at $35/bbl) about $220 M a 
year.  So profit would be in the same range.  As the cost of power 
declined, they could substitute CO2 as the carbon source.  I am 
giving a talk in late January on making synthetic fuel in the field 
for the military using lots of space based solar power.

I don't have any problem with the Saudis building/buying power sats 
and becoming a supplier of synthetic oil.  Though with really vast 
amounts of power sat energy they might choose to be farmers using 
desalinated water.

>Which makes what Keith just said sound suspicious to me:
>
>"In late 1975 a team from the just formed L-5 Society went to the 
>limits to growth conference held that year near Houston.  Dr. Peter 
>Vajk (physics) was with us so we had the credentials to present 
>power satellites as long term solution to the energy (resource) 
>limits and to be taken seriously.  We were nearly kicked out.  It 
>isn't that people disbelieve that there is a solution to such 
>problems, the _DON'T WANT A SOLUTION_.  A substantial fraction, 
>perhaps even a majority of the elite, want a collapse.  Exactly why 
>isn't easy for me to pick out of their rationalizations.  Guilt 
>perhaps, I just don't know.  I had another of these experiences last week."

I wish I could name the person I talked to last week.  I should 
ask.  The person involved was fully aware of the dire consequences in 
terms of human suffering.  However this person rated the plants and 
animals displaced by humans as more important and was looking forward 
to famines and wars.  This person's personal approach is moving to a 
remote area and living in a house built from bales of straw.

>I think when I hear things like this there is reason to be at least 
>a little cynical.  The political barriers may be more dire than the 
>technological ones.

That's almost always the case.  Read up on the history of the big 
power projects in the west.

Keith



From warlordbcm1 at yahoo.com.br  Wed Dec 24 15:33:50 2008
From: warlordbcm1 at yahoo.com.br (Filipe Sobreira)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:33:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<1B1BF564647B43FB8D06ADE26A651D4F@spike>
	<D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<580930c20812240648o3937f83epd6a410bad433e64a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <209678.98999.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

>"Navidad" obviously comes from the Latin for "nativity", and nothing
but contemporary antonomasia suggests of whom. Ones should not confuse
meaning with usage.

Ok, then. Fair enough. But as a Brazilian and familiar with the Spanish language (cause I've studied, since here in Brazil we speak portuguese, another latin derived language), I must warn that "Navidad" doesn't mean anything for the spanish besides "Christmas", regardless of how anybody try to resort to the original ethimology of the word. BTW, in portuguese Christmas is "Natal" wich comes from 'natal?cio' wich means "birthing time". In both cases the meaning is just implicit.

So I will wish Merry Christmas for those who accept this holiday, Happy Hanukkah, for all my fellow jews, and a great Solstice/Yule for everybody else!!! May peace and happyness be with us all.

>Stefano Vaj

Filipe
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      Veja quais s?o os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! +Buscados
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 24 19:29:23 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:29:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 63, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <49525AF4.1070507@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.95.1230093727.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<49525AF4.1070507@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <90BD2B8043DB4FF497976CADBAEC0F74@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of ben
...
>  >simply enjoy my time off.  No pressure - no deadlines.  
> Ahhhhhhhhhh ...
> 
> 
> Exactly.  I watch people getting in a tizzy as Xmas 
> approaches, and try to persuade them that they don't have to even have
Xmas, if it causes so much stress...

Of course stress can be a great motivator.  It causes people to spend money,
which increases debt, which actually in a sense increases the money supply,
which increases the metrics we have to measuring the health of the economy,
and causes people to have the perception of being in good times vs a
recession.  Capitalism is based on the notion that the health of an economy
is measured by the speed with which currency changes hands, rather than on
the proles actual wellbeing which is more difficult to measure.  Marketing
people depend for their living on causing holiday stress, on making people
feel entitled to gifts not just at Newtonmas but at Valentines Day,
birthdays, anniversaries, and an ever increasing list of occasions.

A pile of debt gets our asses out of our warm beds and into the office
nearly every day, does it not?  

> 
> Spike fnargled:
> 
>>... fnargling elided...
> 
> Hey, maybe we should be doing that!
> 
> Depending on whose calendar you use, we are anywhere between, 
> 50 BS and
> 5 BS (Before Singularity, or, for the more dubious, BBS, 
> because they think the Singularity is BS)...
> Pick your calendar, and let the confusion begin!

Thats the spirit Ben!  Fnargled, I like that word, thanks.  What is up with
you grinches?  Its the soltice season.  Let the fnargling begin!  I command
you to be happy, and to cut up and carry on.  Serious discussion welcome as
well, but fnargling is good now that many of us have time off from our
dreary wage-slave existence.


> 
> Spike again:
> 
>  > It fills me with hope for the future of humanity to see 
> the almighty  > dollar overpower the almighty imaginary creator.
> 
> Awww!
> And here was me eagerly anticipating the advent of the 
> Abundance Economy.  Now I have to dread it because it means a 
> return to God-Squad domination.
> Bugger.
> 
> Ben Zed

Ben keep in mind that the abundance economy will be gradually ushered in by
the scarcity economy and all the usual marketing tools.  The god squad isn't
going to just die and go away peacefully, but rather stage an impressive
fighting retreat.

I have been toying with an idea, that maybe this too is a good thing.
Consider those under the influence of certain drugs, such as marijuana.  I
know not from personal experience, but rather from being told by those who
do know:  stoners are generally peaceful types.  One with a good grass buzz
is unlikely to go seeking a fight, so those people are relatively harmless.
PCP on the other hand mixed with the grass gives a different kind of buzz
that actually creates a more dangerous ape.  Damien, et.al, is this
characterization approximately correct?

If so, let me go on to the notion: that those under the influence of most
religious ideologies are actually more harmless than they would be
otherwise, in terms of being less likely to commit violence.  In that sense,
most religions can be analogous to marijuana, which I have long argued
should be legal.  Of course there may be a major world religion that is more
analogous to PCP, which would make its practitioners more dangerous than
otherwise, so I suppose it is a mixed blessing.  

Is not Christianity is a marijuana of religions?

spike






From sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 24 20:32:53 2008
From: sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com (Belva Plain)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:32:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 63, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <90BD2B8043DB4FF497976CADBAEC0F74@spike>
References: <mailman.95.1230093727.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<49525AF4.1070507@lineone.net> <90BD2B8043DB4FF497976CADBAEC0F74@spike>
Message-ID: <BLU137-W20BB2CD144BABB85D8F97ECFED0@phx.gbl>




> From: spike66 at att.net
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:29:23 -0800
> Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 63, Issue 11

> Is not Christianity is a marijuana of religions?
> 
> spike
> 

Of course, Marx called religion das Opium des Volkes, the opiate of the masses, which is 
more a reflection of what the drug of choice was in the 19th century than any 
real divergence from your sentiment, spike. 

Tom D

_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008
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From fauxever at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 24 22:27:59 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:27:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 63, Issue 11
References: <mailman.95.1230093727.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><49525AF4.1070507@lineone.net>
	<90BD2B8043DB4FF497976CADBAEC0F74@spike>
Message-ID: <EA37E085757048349B1ABF900292FB69@patrick4ezsk6z>

From: "spike" <spike66 at att.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 11:29 AM

> A pile of debt gets our asses out of our warm beds and into the office nearly every day, does it not?  

It seems many people work ... for leisure.

Olga
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 22:55:26 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:55:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <209678.98999.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<580930c20812240648o3937f83epd6a410bad433e64a@mail.gmail.com>
	<209678.98999.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812241455w654cf5cdp996cfb816b0e12c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Filipe Sobreira
<warlordbcm1 at yahoo.com.br> wrote:
>>"Navidad" obviously comes from the Latin for "nativity", and nothing
> but contemporary antonomasia suggests of whom. Ones should not confuse
> meaning with usage.
>
> Ok, then. Fair enough. But as a Brazilian and familiar with the Spanish
> language (cause I've studied, since here in Brazil we speak portuguese,
> another latin derived language), I must warn that "Navidad" doesn't mean
> anything for the spanish besides "Christmas", regardless of how anybody try
> to resort to the original ethimology of the word. BTW, in portuguese
> Christmas is "Natal" wich comes from 'natal?cio' wich means "birthing time".
> In both cases the meaning is just implicit.

Absolutely, exactly the same as Natale in Italian. But this is at the
same level of "Enjoy your meal translates Bon Appetit that translates
Hitadakimasu". Only, in the same circumstances, French people wish a
healthy appetite (to enjoy your meal better), and Japanese say "I am
about to eat" in humble form (so that you are welcome to enjoy your
meal).

And there is nothing wrong in knowing what you are *actually* saying,
especially as you would be lost in finding where enjoyment is ever
mentioned in the French or Japanese formula, and as Navidad, Natal or
Natale might tomorrow end up referring (again by antonomasia) to the
birth of - who knows? - HAL 9000, while the word "Christmas" is
forever tainted by its literal reference to the "Anointed" messiah of
christianism.

Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 24 23:28:40 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:28:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812241455w654cf5cdp996cfb816b0e12c@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<580930c20812240648o3937f83epd6a410bad433e64a@mail.gmail.com>
	<209678.98999.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<580930c20812241455w654cf5cdp996cfb816b0e12c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081224172617.022eed30@satx.rr.com>

At 11:55 PM 12/24/2008 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:

>And there is nothing wrong in knowing what you are *actually* saying,
>especially as you would be lost in finding where enjoyment is ever
>mentioned in the French or Japanese formula, and as Navidad, Natal or
>Natale might tomorrow end up referring (again by antonomasia) to the
>birth of - who knows? - HAL 9000

Yes. That's why I suggested a few days ago: "It could be uttered with 
a sort of optimistic transhumanist air, I'm sure." To celebrate the 
birth/creation/emergence of... NanoClaus, SantAI, etc.

Damien Broderick





From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 25 01:08:18 2008
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:08:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081224172617.022eed30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29684.7204.qm@web31301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Right,
plus the roots of this celebration is not really christian but pagan. So many other cultures have a celebration during this time of the year, in association with the winter solstice.
My way to deal with the celebration is to embrace it and go beyond the christian connection. 


--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 5:28 PM

At 11:55 PM 12/24/2008 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:

>And there is nothing wrong in knowing what you are *actually* saying,
>especially as you would be lost in finding where enjoyment is ever
>mentioned in the French or Japanese formula, and as Navidad, Natal or
>Natale might tomorrow end up referring (again by antonomasia) to the
>birth of - who knows? - HAL 9000

Yes. That's why I suggested a few days ago: "It could be uttered with 
a sort of optimistic transhumanist air, I'm sure." To celebrate the 
birth/creation/emergence of... NanoClaus, SantAI, etc.

Damien Broderick



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec 25 03:36:27 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:36:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] appeal: time to undo injustice
In-Reply-To: <7C4FFAE1365B4E469173972F28ED7D01@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com><D1AA8BBE44A74B89A6E664BCCDAF62E0@spike><2F6C372B275241219AB31AE42681ADA3@patrick4ezsk6z><f21c22e30812220427t7716d06fr928518859a9b5fc4@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com><710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com><736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com><a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com><710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C4FFAE1365B4E469173972F28ED7D01@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <F93777ED932347609F7C2B0326C7A4F8@spike>



Check this:

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/12/keith-henson-appeal-time-undo-injustice


Here is the arrest warrant:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/jdorsay/henson/


This will be something to watch as the story unfolds.

spike






From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 04:32:47 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:32:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com>
	<1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:

> I wish I could name the person I talked to last week.  I should ask.  The
> person involved was fully aware of the dire consequences in terms of human
> suffering.  However this person rated the plants and animals displaced by
> humans as more important and was looking forward to famines and wars.  This
> person's personal approach is moving to a remote area and living in a house
> built from bales of straw.


That's no good:  Big Bad Wolf becomes an existential threat.  :p
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec 25 05:43:37 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:43:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the press and global warming: RE: Obama Transition Team
	Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com><bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com><1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>
	<62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>

 

	On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com>
wrote:
	
		>...This person's personal approach is moving to a remote
area and living in a house built from bales of straw.


Why bales of straw?  Couldn't she still use wood the same as always?  Or
animal skins like the native Americans?  Or sod, like the pioneers crossing
the grassy plains?  Or rocks?  Or dig a cave?  Or if the fuel runs out,
there are skerjillions of cars, SUVs, campers and vans that have no job,
which could be pressed into service as small but remarkably weatherproof
shelters.  Straw seems like a poor choice for a bunch of reasons.


	>...The person involved was fully aware of the dire consequences in
terms of human suffering...

Again with the human suffering.  Humans are African beasts.  Africa is a
mostly warm continent.  So a warmer planet should be good for an African
species, ja?

Has anyone besides me recognized the popular press is starting to get a
skeptical attitude about global warming?  This week we yanks were pounded
with some of the most severe winter weather in a long time, with heavy
snowfalls in many northern cities.  Yesterday on PBS, the reporter was going
on about all these blizzards, then went immediately into a story about
global warming.  

I noticed two striking things about the report.  Usually there is a pause
between stories, but this time the reporter rushed a bit, so that she
blurred the boundaries, possibly emphasizing the clash between the two
reports.  Was this intentional?  The second thing I noticed is that for the
past several years, during the summer the concept is called global warming,
but in the winter it is called climate change.  This report following the
blizzard story kept using the term global warming.  It felt a little like
they were subtly ridiculing the notion.  We are accustomed to Fox doing
that, but this was PBS.

Example of Fox reporting:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,472084,00.html

Has anyone here getting the feeling the global warming notion may have seen
its high tide in about 2005?

spike





From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Dec 25 06:09:02 2008
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:09:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the press and global warming: RE: Obama Transition Team
 Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com>
	<1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>
	<62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>
Message-ID: <1230185686_26452@s2.cableone.net>

At 10:43 PM 12/24/2008, spike wrote:
>
>
>         On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com>
>wrote:
>
>                 >...This person's personal approach is moving to a remote
>area and living in a house built from bales of straw.
>
>Why bales of straw?  Couldn't she still use wood the same as always?  Or
>animal skins like the native Americans?  Or sod, like the pioneers crossing
>the grassy plains?  Or rocks?  Or dig a cave?  Or if the fuel runs out,
>there are skerjillions of cars, SUVs, campers and vans that have no job,
>which could be pressed into service as small but remarkably weatherproof
>shelters.  Straw seems like a poor choice for a bunch of reasons.

Insulation.  Google finds 66,800 pages for "straw bale house"

snip

>Has anyone here getting the feeling the global warming notion may have seen
>its high tide in about 2005?

It doesn't matter.  I don't have fixed opinions about global 
warming.  But it is a sure thing that running out of energy will kill 
an awful lot of people.  So I don't care if you are concerned about 
energy or global warming, they both lead to the need for space based 
solar power, or (second best) 10 to 20,000 nuclear reactors.

Keith 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec 25 07:00:20 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:00:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass, Oy!
In-Reply-To: <29684.7204.qm@web31301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081224172617.022eed30@satx.rr.com>
	<29684.7204.qm@web31301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225005829.022b6430@satx.rr.com>

[I didn't write this:]

A MAJOR MERGER IS ANNOUNCED

Continuing the current trend of large-scale mergers and acquisitions,
it was announced today at a press conference that Christmas and
Chanukah will merge.

An industry source said that the deal had been in the works for about
1300 years, ever since the rise of the Muslim Empire. While details
were not available at press time, it is believed that the overhead
cost of having twelve days of Christmas and eight days of Chanukah
was becoming prohibitive for both organizations. By combining forces,
we're told, the world will be able to enjoy consistently high-quality
service during the Twenty Days of Christmukah, as the new holiday is
being called. Massive layoffs are expected, with lords a-leaping and
maids a-milking being the hardest hit.

As part of the conditions of the agreement, the letters on the
dreydl, currently in Hebrew, will be replaced by Latin, thus becoming
unintelligible to a wider audience. Also, instead of translating "A
great miracle happened there," the message on the dreydl will be the
more generic "Miraculous stuff happens." In exchange, it is believed
that Jews will be allowed to use Santa Claus and his vast
merchandising resources for buying and delivering gifts.

In fact, one of the sticking points holding up the agreement for at
least three hundred years was the question of whether Jewish children
could leave milk and cookies for Santa after having eaten meat for
dinner. A breakthrough came last year, when Oreos were finally
declared to be Kosher. Both organizations hailed this as a win-win.

A spokesman for Christmas, Inc., declined to say whether a takeover
of Kwanzaa might not be in the works as well. He merely pointed out
that, were it not for the independent existence of Kwanzaa, the
merger between Christmas and Chanukah might indeed be seen as an
unfair cornering of the holiday market. Fortunately for all
concerned, he said, Kwanzaa will help to maintain the competitive
balance.

He then closed the press conference by leading all present in a
rousing rendition of "Oy, Come All Ye Faithful." 



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Dec 25 13:53:02 2008
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 08:53:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ExI] the press and global warming: RE: Obama Transition Team
 Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com><bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com><1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>
	<62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>
Message-ID: <2351.12.77.168.202.1230213182.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

>
>
> 		>...This person's personal approach is moving to a remote
> area and living in a house built from bales of straw.
>
>
> Why bales of straw?

Straw bale houses are said to be very energy efficient and "organic", and the straw
is supposed to be a great insullation. I've not seen such a house, but Google is
your friend. :)

Regards,
MB



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 17:04:05 2008
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:04:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] AP: Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
Message-ID: <29666bf30812250904s1db32b6boda478e96a83cbd50@mail.gmail.com>

MSM (mainstream media) coverage from Associated Press:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081225/ap_on_sc/do_it_yourself_dna

PJ


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec 25 16:47:26 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 08:47:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the press and global warming: RE: Obama Transition Team
	Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <1230185686_26452@s2.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com><bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com><1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net><62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com><1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>
	<1230185686_26452@s2.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <D022C78F84B44301AEC114D0C089A6C9@spike>

 

>On Behalf Of hkhenson
...
> 
>...But it is a sure thing that running out of energy 
> will kill an awful lot of people... Keith 

Surely so.  The back-to-nature crowd regales us with visions of the ultimate
triumph of the animal kingdom when our easy energy sources crash and our
vaunted advanced technologies fail us.  Missing is the realization that
wildlife is just as dependent upon modern advanced energy management as are
humans, if not moreso.  If our energy inefficient farming system collapses,
humans immediately devour the farm beasts, followed by the pets, followed by
the wild animals, from the largest first to the smallest eventually.

In that doomsday scenario, I could imagine homo sapiens as the largest
surviving land mammalian species (in two to three orders of magnitude
reduced numbers), with second place being down in the rat range.

spike










From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec 25 18:36:53 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:36:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>

<http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Futurist-Ray-Kurzweil-Named-2009/story.aspx?guid={D1D18C1D-5D1A-4B51-BF93-3559ECDDC3ED}>

TEMPE, AZ, Dec 09, 2008 (MARKET WIRE via COMTEX) -- The Leonardo da 
Vinci Society for the Study of Thinking has named Ray Kurzweil, 
renowned technology futurist, inventor and entrepreneur, as its 2009 
inductee. Mr. Kurzweil will appear on campus at the University of 
Advancing Technology (UAT) to receive the honor at the Da Vinci 
Society's annual luncheon and colloquium.

The Da Vinci Society was founded in 2005 by UAT President Dominic 
Pistillo to honor the world's leading thinkers.... In "The Age of 
Spiritual Machines" and "The Singularity Is Near," Kurzweil expounds 
on his theory that the world will soon undergo a world-changing 
Singularity in which artificial intelligence will surpass human 
intelligence, leading to an awakening in the universe and a new type 
of humanity that is integrated with machines. Kurzweil is also a 
leading proponent of human longevity and nanotechnology. 



From neptune at superlink.net  Thu Dec 25 22:44:56 2008
From: neptune at superlink.net (Techno)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:44:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Happy Holiday!
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com><bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com><1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net><62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>
Message-ID: <CBFCA96C0062407B93510A7A7D94AA7C@technotr9881e5>

Well, don't know what to call, but have a good one.

Regards,

Dan
See Patrick Wolf's "The Magic Position" at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeR9_7cACUc



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec 25 23:17:01 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:17:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Happy Holiday!
In-Reply-To: <CBFCA96C0062407B93510A7A7D94AA7C@technotr9881e5>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com>
	<1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>
	<62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AC1EE67565C4952BFF8E3AA12AF5599@spike>
	<CBFCA96C0062407B93510A7A7D94AA7C@technotr9881e5>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225171519.022d2130@satx.rr.com>

At 05:44 PM 12/25/2008 -0500, Dan Techno wrote:

>Well, don't know what to call, but have a good one.

Why, you say Merry, Y'all!

Damien in Texas
[and for the Aussies: steady on with the gutsing and boozing or Yule 
make y'self chunder]




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 04:31:37 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:31:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081224002055.022e1cd0@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670812232207q68e21ffdy9beec9548375b026@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081224002055.022e1cd0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812252031p2ee2ab2cm6de4b8ddcc52a485@mail.gmail.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
Non-bible scholars believe the whole thing was made up, like Zeus, Santa
Claus and Xenu. You might as well believe Joseph Smith saw angels and golden
plates and-- Oh, wait. Well, at least there's acceptable independent
evidence that Smith *existed*.
>>>

Damien, we both know there is a wide range of acceptance/non-acceptance of
the historical Jesus among scholars who research his life.  I will say that
I definitely had an interesting time studying this subject online (and on
Christmas no less!).  I thought the essay below brings up a powerful point
by showing the massive historical and social impact of Jesus and how such
things come from the actions of real people on real history and not simply
figments of the imagination.

Merry Christmas!

John

Excerpted from the article, "Was Jesus a Real Person?"
The following facts about Jesus were written by early non-Christian sources:

   - Jesus was from Nazareth.
   - Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life.
   - Jesus was crucified in Palestine under Pontius Pilate during the reign
   of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
   - Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the
   dead three days later.
   - Jesus' enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats they called
   "sorcery."
   - Jesus' small band of disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading as far as
   Rome.
   - Jesus' disciples denied polytheism, lived moral lives, and worshiped
   Christ as God.

Theologian Norman Geisler remarked:

 "This general outline is perfectly congruent with that of the New
Testament."9

All of these independent accounts, religious and secular, speak of a real
man who matches up well with the Jesus in the Gospels. Encyclopedia
Britannica cites these various secular accounts of Jesus' life as convincing
proof of his existence. It states:

 "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents
of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus."10

*Historical Impact *

An important distinction between a myth and a real person is how the figure
impacts history. For example, the Olympic Games originated on Mount Olympus
in Greece, home of the temple of the Greek god Zeus. But Zeus has not
changed governments, laws, or ethics.

The historian Thomas Carlyle said, "No great man lives in vain. The history
of the world is but the biography of great men."11 As Carlyle notes, it is
real people, not myths, who impact history.

As a real person, Alexander impacted history by his military conquests,
altering nations, governments, and laws. But what of Jesus Christ and his
impact on our world?

The first-century governments of Israel and Rome were largely untouched by
Jesus' life. The average Roman citizen didn't know he existed until many
years after his death, Roman culture remained largely aloof from his
teaching for decades, and it would be several centuries before killing
Christians in the coliseum became a national pastime. The rest of the world
had little if any knowledge of him. Jesus marshaled no army. He didn't write
a book or change any laws. The Jewish leaders hoped to wipe out his memory,
and it appeared they would succeed.

Today, however, ancient Rome lies in ruins. Caesar's mighty legions and the
pomp of Roman imperial power have faded into oblivion. Yet how is Jesus
remembered today? What is *his* enduring influence?

   - More books have been written about Jesus than about any other person in
   history.
   - Nations have used his words as the bedrock of their governments.
   According to Durant, "The triumph of Christ was the beginning of democracy."
   12
   - His Sermon on the Mount established a new paradigm in ethics and
   morals.
   - Schools, hospitals, and humanitarian works have been founded in his
   name. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Oxford are but a few universities that
   have Christians to thank for their beginning.
   - The elevated role of women in Western culture traces its roots back to
   Jesus. (Women in Jesus' day were considered inferior and virtual nonpersons
   until his teaching was followed.)
   - Slavery was abolished in Britain and America due to Jesus' teaching
   that each human life is valuable.
   - Former drug and alcohol dependents, prostitutes, and others seeking
   purpose in life claim him as the explanation for their changed lives.
   - Two billion people call themselves Christians. While some are Christian
   in name only, others continue to impact our culture by teaching Jesus'
   principles that all life is valuable and we are to love one another.

Remarkably, Jesus made all of this impact as a result of just a three-year
period of public ministry. If Jesus didn't exist, one must wonder how a myth
could so alter history. When world historian H. G. Wells was asked who has
left the greatest legacy on history, he replied, "By this test Jesus stands
first."13

Documentary evidence and historical impact point to the fact that Jesus did
exist. If Jesus did really exist, we also would expect to discover his
footprints imprinted within the details of history. Myths don't leave such
confirming details.

One of the keys here for Durant and other scholars is the time factor. Myths
and legends usually take hundreds of years to evolve?the story of George
Washington never telling a lie was probably a lie, until two centuries
turned it into legend. News of Christianity, on the other hand, spread too
quickly to be attributed to a myth or legend. Had Jesus not existed, those
who opposed Christianity would certainly have labeled him a myth from the
outset. But they didn't.

Such evidence, along with the early written accounts and the historical
impact of Jesus Christ, convince even skeptical historians that the founder
of Christianity was neither myth nor legend. But one expert on myths wasn't
so sure.

Like Muggeridge, Oxford scholar C. S. Lewis was initially convinced that
Jesus was nothing more than a myth. Lewis once stated, "All religions, that
is, all mythologies ? are merely man's own invention?Christ as much as
Loki."15 (Loki is an old Norse god. Like Thor, but without the ponytail.)

Ten years after denouncing Jesus as a myth, Lewis discovered that historical
details, including several eyewitness documents, verify his existence.

Jesus Christ has impacted history's landscape like a massive earthquake. And
this earthquake has left a trail wider than the Grand Canyon. It is this
trail of evidence that convinces scholars that Jesus really did exist and
really did impact our world 2,000 years ago.

One skeptic who thought Jesus was a myth was British journalist Malcolm
Muggeridge. But on a television assignment to Israel, Muggeridge was faced
with evidence about Jesus Christ that he didn't know existed. As he checked
out historical places?Jesus' birthplace, Nazareth, the crucifixion site, and
the empty tomb?a sense of Jesus' reality began to emerge.

Later he stated

 "It was while I was in the Holy Land for the purpose of making three B.B.C.
television programmes on the New Testament that a ? certainty seized me
about Jesus' birth, ministry and Crucifixion. ? I became aware that there
really had been a man, Jesus, who was also God."14

 Some German higher-critical scholars in the 18th and 19th centuries had
questioned Jesus' existence, pointing out that such key figures as Pontius
Pilate and the chief priest Joseph Caiaphas in the Gospel accounts had never
been confirmed as real. No rebuttal was possible until the mid-20th century.

Archaeologists in 1962 confirmed Pilate's existence when they discovered his
name included in an inscription on an excavated stone. Likewise, the
existence of Caiaphas was uncertain until 1990, when an ossuary (bone box)
was discovered bearing his inscription. Archaeologists have also discovered
what they believe to be Simon Peter's house and a cave where John the
Baptist did his baptizing.

Finally, perhaps the most convincing historical evidence that Jesus existed
was the rapid rise of Christianity. How can it be explained without Christ?
How could this group of fishermen and other workingmen invent Jesus in a
scant few years? Durant answered his own introductory question?did Christ
exist??with the following conclusion:

That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and
appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of
human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded
in the Gospels. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the
life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and
constitute the most fascinating feature in the history of Western man.

Scholars' Verdict

Clifford Herschel Moore, professor at Harvard University, remarked of Jesus'
historicity, "Christianity knew its Saviour and Redeemer not as some god
whose history was contained in a mythical faith. ? Jesus was a historical
not a mythical being. No remote or foul myth obtruded itself on the
Christian believer; his faith was founded on positive, historical, and
acceptable facts."16

Few if any serious historians agree with Ellen Johnson's and Bertrand
Russell's assertions that Jesus didn't exist. The extensive documentation of
Jesus' life by contemporary writers, his profound historical impact, and the
confirming tangible evidence of history have persuaded scholars that Jesus
really did exist. Could a myth have done all that? All but a few extremely
skeptical scholars say no.

Dr. Michael Grant of Cambridge has written, "To sum up, modern critical
methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has 'again and again been
answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years 'no
serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus.' "17

Yale historian Jaroslav Pelikan declared, "Regardless of what anyone may
personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the
dominant figure in the history of Western culture for almost twenty
centuries. ? It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its
calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that
millions pray."18

>>>>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 06:16:41 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 01:16:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> <
> http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Futurist-Ray-Kurzweil-Named-2009/story.aspx?guid={D1D18C1D-5D1A-4B51-BF93-3559ECDDC3ED}<http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Futurist-Ray-Kurzweil-Named-2009/story.aspx?guid=%7BD1D18C1D-5D1A-4B51-BF93-3559ECDDC3ED%7D>
> >
>
>
"...inventing the Singularity"?

helluva claim.
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 26 06:48:06 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 00:48:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>

At 01:16 AM 12/26/2008 -0500, MD wrote:

>"...inventing the Singularity"?
>
>helluva claim.

Hey, if Al Gore can invented the--

But it should be noted that Ray doesn't exactly make this claim; it's 
the Leonardo da Vinci Society for the Study of Thinking, making the 
award, that implies it with the phrase "his theory that the world 
will soon undergo a world-changing Singularity".

I suppose if one belatedly uses and develops a variant of a brilliant 
new theory it becomes one's theory, but I think it would be a bit 
odious to applaud someone writing a book about spacetime for "his 
theory of Relativity," unless he were named Einstein.

Dr. Vernor Vinge doesn't seem to get upset by his being constant 
sidelined or sidebarred, but it makes me bite my lip to see this 
happening so often.

Damien Broderick




From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 07:24:26 2008
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 02:24:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240812252324w7683fbfcw82bc7cdc753c6272@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 1:48 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> I suppose if one belatedly uses and develops a variant of a brilliant new
> theory it becomes one's theory, but I think it would be a bit odious to
> applaud someone writing a book about spacetime for "his theory of
> Relativity," unless he were named Einstein.
>
> Dr. Vernor Vinge doesn't seem to get upset by his being constant sidelined
> or sidebarred, but it makes me bite my lip to see this happening so often.
>

I'd like to thank Mr. Descartes for his Proof of Existence...
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From moulton at moulton.com  Fri Dec 26 07:14:00 2008
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 23:14:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812252031p2ee2ab2cm6de4b8ddcc52a485@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220733r247d13d7iafa625a291748c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081222110208.022d2008@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670812232207q68e21ffdy9beec9548375b026@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081224002055.022e1cd0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812252031p2ee2ab2cm6de4b8ddcc52a485@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1230275640.13556.1074.camel@hayek>

Below are some critical comments that I felt were needed for this
discussion.  In my attempt to be more civil for the rest of the year I
went back and edited my comments to remove terms such as b******t and I
hope that everyone realizes I am addressing the comments and not any
individual.

On Thu, 2008-12-25 at 21:31 -0700, John Grigg wrote:
> Damien Broderick wrote: 
> Non-bible scholars believe the whole thing was made up, like Zeus,
> Santa Claus and Xenu. You might as well believe Joseph Smith saw
> angels and golden plates and-- Oh, wait. Well, at least there's
> acceptable independent evidence that Smith *existed*.
> >>> 
> 
> Damien, we both know there is a wide range of
> acceptance/non-acceptance of the historical Jesus among scholars who
> research his life.  I will say that I definitely had an interesting
> time studying this subject online (and on Christmas no less!).  I
> thought the essay below brings up a powerful point by showing the
> massive historical and social impact of Jesus and how such things come
> from the actions of real people on real history and not simply
> figments of the imagination.  
> 
> Merry Christmas!
> 
> John 
> 
> Excerpted from the article, "Was Jesus a Real Person?"

Giving the title of the article without further information in not
useful since there is more than one article with that title.  So what is
needed is the name of the author and where and when it was published and
if possible a URL it is is online.

> The following facts about Jesus were written by early non-Christian
> sources:
First the list is a set of statements which may or may not be correct;
there is not enough evidence to call all of them "facts".  Secondly
notice these "early non-Christian sources" are not specified.  Also let
us be very careful of the term "early"; it is vague and does not
necessarily mean "at the time of the events".  For example Josephus is
often mentioned in these types of discussions and those not familiar
with the background on Josephus should be aware that Josephus did not
have first hand knowledge of the events listed and the earliest
surviving copies of his texts date from centuries later.  And scholars
are still attempting to determine if and to what extent passages were
added by later copy scribes.
...
> Theologian Norman Geisler remarked:
>         "This general outline is perfectly congruent with that of the
>         New Testament."9 

This statement does not give us much information since as noted
previously what we are seeing may not be confirmation but rather an
interjection and repeated copying of non-contemporaneous sources.

Also is this "Norman Geisler" the same Norman Geisler who is the
advocate of creationism.  From what evidence I have been able to find
this is the case and Geisler is not what I would consider a reliable
scholar.

> All of these independent accounts, religious and secular, speak of a
> real man who matches up well with the Jesus in the Gospels.

Here is another slight of hand; all we have had so far is one name and
vague references to independent accounts.   So to write about "these
independent accounts, religious and secular" as if a fully sourced set
of credible sources was given is just misleading.

>  Encyclopedia Britannica cites these various secular accounts of
> Jesus' life as convincing proof of his existence. It states:
> 
>         "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even
>         the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of
>         Jesus."10

First we are not given a citation for the alleged quote so that it can
not be verified.  And even worse the quote does not support the
statement about the Encyclopedia Britannica, the quote is about what has
been reported about the beliefs of some ancient writers not what the
writers of the Britannica may or may not believe.

> Historical Impact 
> An important distinction between a myth and a real person is how the
> figure impacts history.

No. It is difficult to determine if the above statement is just false or
merely so ambiguous as to be useless.

>  For example, the Olympic Games originated on Mount Olympus in Greece,
> home of the temple of the Greek god Zeus. But Zeus has not changed
> governments, laws, or ethics.
> 
> The historian Thomas Carlyle said, "No great man lives in vain. The
> history of the world is but the biography of great men."11 As Carlyle
> notes, it is real people, not myths, who impact history. 

First everyone should be aware that there are various opinions in the
scholarly historical community about the role of great individuals in
history and how historical study is and should be done.  Secondly we
should remember that Carlyle did his work on history in the 1800s and
has been dead for over a 125 years.  So if we are looking for informed
opinion on questions of historical methodology it might be a good idea
to consider some persons more familiar with recent scholarship in the
field.

At this point I am going to stop the point by point discussion because I
am tired and can see no point in wasting further time on refuting
something which I can only describe as poorly sourced, out of context,
filled with non-sequiturs, irrelevant, vague and misleading.

Fred




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 26 09:06:40 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 03:06:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226030236.02487ea0@satx.rr.com>

At 12:48 AM 12/26/2008 -0600, I wrote:

>Hey, if Al Gore can invented the--

I hope this clumsy typo gives heart to others who don't make their 
living by writing. I blame Xmas myself, which I spent tramping along 
a drained river bottom (the in-progress extension of the celebrated 
San Antonio Riverwalk) with my dear wife and our dog, and not a drop to drink.

Damien Broderick 



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Dec 26 19:51:06 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 13:51:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>

Why bite your lip?  Why not address it directly and bring it to the
attention of Ray and the journalist? 


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien
Broderick
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 12:48 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity

At 01:16 AM 12/26/2008 -0500, MD wrote:

>"...inventing the Singularity"?
>
>helluva claim.

Hey, if Al Gore can invented the--

But it should be noted that Ray doesn't exactly make this claim; it's the
Leonardo da Vinci Society for the Study of Thinking, making the award, that
implies it with the phrase "his theory that the world will soon undergo a
world-changing Singularity".

I suppose if one belatedly uses and develops a variant of a brilliant new
theory it becomes one's theory, but I think it would be a bit odious to
applaud someone writing a book about spacetime for "his theory of
Relativity," unless he were named Einstein.

Dr. Vernor Vinge doesn't seem to get upset by his being constant sidelined
or sidebarred, but it makes me bite my lip to see this happening so often.

Damien Broderick


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 26 20:39:38 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:39:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>

At 01:51 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More wrote:

>Why bite your lip?  Why not address it directly and bring it to the
>attention of Ray and the journalist?

I think Ray knows my opinion on this. Journalists generally don't 
care about acknowledging that sort of priority, alas, especially once 
a story's been filed. So why mention it here? I suppose because the 
ExI list was the main venue where various arguments were made about a 
Vingean technological singularity, a decade and a half ago, or so, 
although most of the people engaged in that discussion--Clark vs. 
Burkhead, Eliezer, Clemmensen, Eugen, Anders, Robin Hanson, etc 
etc--have moved away or fallen silent.

In short: Just placing a flag, for memory, in a world where memory is 
effectively becoming extinct because there's too much of it swamping us.

Damien Broderick 



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 26 22:30:42 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:30:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <F60985DF215E4B64A7EC7543C0384D25@spike>

 

>...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
... 
> In short: Just placing a flag, for memory, in a world where 
> memory is effectively becoming extinct because there's too 
> much of it swamping us... Damien Broderick 


Astute observation, thanks Damien.  Yesterday I was musing at how we have no
photographs because we have too many of them.  There are only about a dozen
photos of me before the age of 3.  My parents had no camera in the early
60s, so any pix were taken by others and given to us.  My mother holds that
dozen photos among her most prized possessions.  She knows each photo.

We have thousands of photos of Isaac, but almost none of them are on paper,
so it is impossible to find any particular one, unless it happens to have
been printed out for some reason.  So now we have no photos because they are
lost among our many thousands.  A picture is worth a thousand words, but a
thousand digital pictures are worth nearly nothing.  It quickly becomes too
hard to find what you are looking for.

spike



 



From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Dec 27 00:46:51 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:46:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>

Just yesterday, I was thinking about how someone who is removed from the
barage of information has a potentially better ability to describe a
situation than those whose memories are filled with stuff.  

Nonetheless - when someone from the Extropy list writes about transhumanism
and list discussions on the Singularity, I feel confident that a fairly
accurate recollection will be made.

Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien
Broderick
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 2:40 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity

At 01:51 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More wrote:

>Why bite your lip?  Why not address it directly and bring it to the 
>attention of Ray and the journalist?

I think Ray knows my opinion on this. Journalists generally don't care about
acknowledging that sort of priority, alas, especially once a story's been
filed. So why mention it here? I suppose because the ExI list was the main
venue where various arguments were made about a Vingean technological
singularity, a decade and a half ago, or so, although most of the people
engaged in that discussion--Clark vs. 
Burkhead, Eliezer, Clemmensen, Eugen, Anders, Robin Hanson, etc etc--have
moved away or fallen silent.

In short: Just placing a flag, for memory, in a world where memory is
effectively becoming extinct because there's too much of it swamping us.

Damien Broderick 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 27 01:50:25 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:50:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>

At 06:46 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More wrote:

>when someone from the Extropy list writes about transhumanism
>and list discussions on the Singularity, I feel confident that a fairly
>accurate recollection will be made.

Two problems with that statement (in the context of this thread):

As far as I know, none of the complicated and imaginative posts from 
the first couple of decades of the ExI list (long before Kurzweil's 
Singularity book, and before my own also, of course) are archived. A 
tiny sampling is quoted in THE SPIKE and perhaps in a few articles 
here and there. A few aging people will recall that such a long 
conversation once existed, but the text of it has already vanished (I assume).

And in any case, Dr. Vinge--who *did* discern/invent the 
singularity--has never posted here (although Eliezer did, of course, 
copiously--as did Robert Bradbury and others).

But maybe I've missed your point, Natasha.

Damien Broderick
[I feel a related sort of frustration and unfairness when journalists 
routinely source derivative, half-baked STAR TREK or STAR WARS or 
TERMINATOR movies or eps instead of the brilliant books and stories 
by the geniuses who not only thought up these ideas, decades earlier, 
but usually developed and explored their nuances. In that case, 
though, the lazy journalism has a kind of justification, because so 
vastly many people have been exposed to the ST, SW, T products that 
the reference is immediate, instantly recognizable, and clarifying.]




From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Dec 27 01:56:58 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:56:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com><FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>

You missed the point.   


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien
Broderick
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:50 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity

At 06:46 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More wrote:

>when someone from the Extropy list writes about transhumanism and list 
>discussions on the Singularity, I feel confident that a fairly accurate 
>recollection will be made.

Two problems with that statement (in the context of this thread):

As far as I know, none of the complicated and imaginative posts from the
first couple of decades of the ExI list (long before Kurzweil's Singularity
book, and before my own also, of course) are archived. A tiny sampling is
quoted in THE SPIKE and perhaps in a few articles here and there. A few
aging people will recall that such a long conversation once existed, but the
text of it has already vanished (I assume).

And in any case, Dr. Vinge--who *did* discern/invent the singularity--has
never posted here (although Eliezer did, of course, copiously--as did Robert
Bradbury and others).

But maybe I've missed your point, Natasha.

Damien Broderick
[I feel a related sort of frustration and unfairness when journalists
routinely source derivative, half-baked STAR TREK or STAR WARS or TERMINATOR
movies or eps instead of the brilliant books and stories by the geniuses who
not only thought up these ideas, decades earlier, but usually developed and
explored their nuances. In that case, though, the lazy journalism has a kind
of justification, because so vastly many people have been exposed to the ST,
SW, T products that the reference is immediate, instantly recognizable, and
clarifying.]


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 02:00:32 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:00:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812261800r48d7bfd9s9a9b808df06f5155@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> As far as I know, none of the complicated and imaginative posts from the
> first couple of decades of the ExI list (long before Kurzweil's Singularity
> book, and before my own also, of course) are archived. A tiny sampling is
> quoted in THE SPIKE and perhaps in a few articles here and there. A few
> aging people will recall that such a long conversation once existed, but the
> text of it has already vanished (I assume).

For what it's worth, I'm still interested in acquiring those archives.
I find it very hard to believe that out of the collective information
hoarding tendencies of everyone on this list that there isn't a single
person from that era that has a mostly-complete archive.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 27 02:01:36 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:01:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
	<9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com>


>You missed the point.
>
>
>Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

What was the point? 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 27 02:10:46 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:10:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ExI archives all the way down
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812261800r48d7bfd9s9a9b808df06f5155@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
	<55ad6af70812261800r48d7bfd9s9a9b808df06f5155@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226200841.02334458@satx.rr.com>

At 08:00 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Bryan wrote:

>For what it's worth, I'm still interested in acquiring those archives.
>I find it very hard to believe that out of the collective information
>hoarding tendencies of everyone on this list that there isn't a single
>person from that era that has a mostly-complete archive.

More than a decade ago, I held the same hope, but too many ExI 
posters before that time (and perhaps some after it) declined to give 
permission to make their posts publicly available. Their right, of 
course, since it began as a closed list.

Damien Broderick 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 02:16:55 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:16:55 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ExI archives all the way down
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226200841.02334458@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
	<55ad6af70812261800r48d7bfd9s9a9b808df06f5155@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226200841.02334458@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812261816t794cafdaq9e777d33029c41b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:10 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> At 08:00 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Bryan wrote:
>> For what it's worth, I'm still interested in acquiring those archives.
>> I find it very hard to believe that out of the collective information
>> hoarding tendencies of everyone on this list that there isn't a single
>> person from that era that has a mostly-complete archive.
>
> More than a decade ago, I held the same hope, but too many ExI posters
> before that time (and perhaps some after it) declined to give permission to
> make their posts publicly available. Their right, of course, since it began
> as a closed list.

I've been in the (new) habit of assigning the CC-SA-3.0 and GNU FDL
1.3 to my emails on mailing lists, especially on the open
manufacturing mailing list.
see: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/814b2a47a602cac0/0e8c3b02fea1d8e5?lnk=gst&q=clusterfsck#0e8c3b02fea1d8e5

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

Which, of course, I do the same here, just for the record and all
that, even though the mighty archives have already swallowed my emails
whole into the public domain.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Dec 27 02:53:40 2008
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:53:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com><FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com><9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>

The very early emails are available with permission.  Max has many very
early emails saved on disk.  Vernor Vinge was interviewed for the Exponent
(An Extropy Institute online publication during the 1990s) on the
Singularity.  All these elements are valuable material for a chapter on this
topic in a book on transhumanism by someone who will be writing it.


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien
Broderick
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 8:02 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity


>You missed the point.
>
>
>Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

What was the point? 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 27 03:48:22 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:48:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
	<9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com>
	<278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081226214728.024c4628@satx.rr.com>

At 08:53 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More wrote:

>The very early emails are available with permission.  Max has many very
>early emails saved on disk.

That's good to know!




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 10:25:07 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 03:25:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <1230275640.13556.1074.camel@hayek>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812231634rc923383te65e924548bd28b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670812232207q68e21ffdy9beec9548375b026@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081224002055.022e1cd0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812252031p2ee2ab2cm6de4b8ddcc52a485@mail.gmail.com>
	<1230275640.13556.1074.camel@hayek>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812270225x1cf5fe00k722be3fa6d21bc03@mail.gmail.com>

The link you requested:

http://www.y-jesus.com/bornid_article.html

I'm going to be doing much more reading on this subject.  I used to think
the controversy regarding Jesus was about the question of his divinity and
not whether he had actually been a real person.  I thought the latter was a
given.  I will say in my online research I found Christian apologists who
tended to gloss over things and not admit possible weaknesses to their
arguments.  But at the same time secular critics in my view are too tough by
demanding written down at the time of the event eye witness accounts when
oral histories were passed down from generation to generation in the ancient
world and this was a time honored tradition.

I didn't realize Josephus was supposedly a corrupted source of information
regarding Jesus due to things being added later by dishonest scribes.  I'm
going to dig deeper about this matter.  And it is a major thing that Roman
and Jewish records (and both peoples loved to keep careful records)
supposedly do not mention Jesus at all, despite all the events mentioned in
the New Testament.  But I do wonder if a conspiracy could have existed that
expunged all secular written records of Jesus in an effort to suppress his
followers and their message.  It has also been over two thousand years since
these events happened and much can be lost in the mists of time.

 John
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 12:49:01 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:19:01 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com>
	<1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net>
	<62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812270449x575c434fp238d23e9183837f4@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/25 Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
>>
>> I wish I could name the person I talked to last week.  I should ask.  The
>> person involved was fully aware of the dire consequences in terms of human
>> suffering.  However this person rated the plants and animals displaced by
>> humans as more important and was looking forward to famines and wars.  This
>> person's personal approach is moving to a remote area and living in a house
>> built from bales of straw.
>

It is inconsistent to hold that view and remain living, imo.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 14:00:54 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:00:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
	<9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com>
	<278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <580930c20812270600j6386e1f8qb27731f4f6c80103@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:53 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> The very early emails are available with permission.

I would say that the interest of history should trump over copyright
and privacy issues - which have anyway dubious merit with regard to
messages sent by unencrypted e-mail to an indeterminate number of
recipients...

Aren't we currently reading Napoleon's very intimate letters to his
lovers, after all?

But there again as a lawyer I probably lack respect for such issues in
the first place. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 14:15:45 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:15:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Impending Newtonmass...
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812270225x1cf5fe00k722be3fa6d21bc03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201900i3627825er6740942dde79824@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081223190630.02431dd0@satx.rr.com>
	<736413.99290.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812232014y750e71e2r99b55e2ae40487d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812232102p4967dbe2i8e160976578eca0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<2d6187670812232207q68e21ffdy9beec9548375b026@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081224002055.022e1cd0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812252031p2ee2ab2cm6de4b8ddcc52a485@mail.gmail.com>
	<1230275640.13556.1074.camel@hayek>
	<2d6187670812270225x1cf5fe00k722be3fa6d21bc03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812270615p5106c5c0q325a725ec7f37fb5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 11:25 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> The link you requested:
>
> http://www.y-jesus.com/bornid_article.html

Those who are interested to the history and "state of the art" of the debate
on historicity of evangelical events and proto-christianity, and who can
read French, can find their fullest illustration in Alain de Benoist, *J?sus
et ses fr?res*<http://www.amazon.fr/fr%C3%A8res-autres-christiannisme-paganisme-religion/dp/2952832102/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230387126&sr=1-2>(a
full version the main text is available online
here <http://www.alaindebenoist.com/pdf/jesus_et_ses_freres.pdf>).

The book also contains very extensive bibliographical references.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 27 16:30:02 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 08:30:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] greens don't breed,
	breeders aren't green: RE: Obama Transition Team Examining Space
	Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812270449x575c434fp238d23e9183837f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0812201854l23f44b78ke9bbf23e559180c7@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812201930k1134c6c4xabc197fa7835aafb@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812211653r615d9844jfbbfdede4ad4a286@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812220251m4ed4d2cen7f2e3ca14fb90f96@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812220910p4bb09cb8q5803520b3284cf51@mail.gmail.com><bf3acbfc0812230338r217d2f16q3eedcf919ce8c2c5@mail.gmail.com><c49b1db60812232122k23ff9e2fvd0c5d97e10628638@mail.gmail.com><1230135814_24462@s1.cableone.net><62c14240812242032y75a4673dr7590cc447f97a407@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812270449x575c434fp238d23e9183837f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D020254891F4CC49C70EAA258C0E3A3@spike>

  
> <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...However this person rated the plants and animals 
> >> displaced by humans as more important and was looking forward to 
> >> famines and wars...
> >
> 
> It is inconsistent to hold that view and remain living, imo. --
> Emlyn
>

Ja.  The greenest thing one can do is suicide.  Of course the still more
green act would be to make sure one does not breed, thereby slaying one's
genotype as well.  

At a recent social gathering after the Convergence weekend, the discussion
turned to reproduction.  This crowd of thirty adults had a total of four
offspring.  One was mine, one was a grown son of one f the regulars who was
born before that person became a regular, and two were the children of the
recent spouse of one of the relative newcomers.  Transhumanism in general
appears to have decided as one mind that biological reproduction is
impractical or undesireable.

Aubrey de Grey jested that he was waiting for a low-cost version of
reproduction.  This is quite unlikely to be developed any time soon.
Eliezer pointed out that he has no children but many followers.  Certainly
in his case, having biological descendants would likely come at great
expense to his followers, for it would take up his time.

Thirty adult transhumanists, four children total.  Ponder this.

Is not today Amara's theoretical due date?  Has anyone heard anything?

spike

  



From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Dec 27 22:03:09 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:03:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>

Talking about what the Obama administration might and might not take 
into consideration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell


 From the final section, "Current/future work":

"In December 2008, further news was announced concerning progress. 
Following submission of the final WB-7 results, Dr Richard Nebel has 
commented that "There's nothing in there [the research] that suggests 
this will not work," but that "That's a very different statement from 
saying that it will work.". Of possible interest is the fact that US 
President-elect Barack Obama's chosen Energy Secretary Steven Chu is 
specifically aware of the project, though there is no evidence that this 
in itself will lead to any federal funding from an Obama administration. 
Eighteen months ago when questioned during a talk at Google, Chu 
remarked of the Polywell that "So far, there's not enough information so 
[that] I can give an evaluation of the probability that it might work or 
not...But I'm trying to get more information."

Bussard seemed convinced that this design will work, if it's scaled up 
enough.

So, assuming that this design does indeed work, and that Keith is right 
in saying:
"it is a sure thing that running out of energy will kill
an awful lot of people.  So I don't care if you are concerned about
energy or global warming, they both lead to the need for space based
solar power, or (second best) 10 to 20,000 nuclear reactors.",

and Bussard's opinion that:
"Thus, we have the ability to do away with oil (and other fossil fuels) 
but it will take 4-6 years and ca. $100-200M to build the full-scale 
plant and demonstrate it.",
is correct, would the successful demonstration of a Polywell reactor be 
a good thing, or a bad thing, bearing in mind that it would be likely to 
kill any efforts to realise SPSs?

I'm sure that it's extemely naive to look at the above figures and come 
up with $1 - 4 Trillion for Polywell reactors, as opposed to Keith's 
estimated, um, I don't know how much, and i'm not looking back through 
all the posts on this topic to find out, for enough powersats.
Also, i don't see any mention of how much power these Polywell reactors 
could be expected to produce.

So I suppose the point of this post is to ask:
Polywell reactors, worth supporting or not?
Bearing in mind that the design is already done, the principle is 
proven, and all that needs to be done, it seems, is the scaling up. 
("Bussard believed that the system had demonstrated itself to the degree 
that no intermediate-scale models will be needed, and noted, "We are 
probably the only people on the planet who know how to make a real net 
power clean fusion system"": Robert W. Bussard (2006-03-29). "Inertial 
Electrostatic Fusion systems can now be built". fusor.net forums.)

(Apologies if the Polywell design has already been discussed on here)

Ben Zaiboc


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sat Dec 27 22:45:34 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:45:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
Message-ID: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>

Hello fellow Extropes! Hope you are having a very merry Christmas.  Remember when you voted for my animation and I made it through that  first round well now it's for the final round of voting! The winner will take home 20 thousand dollars! If I can win this, I will use it towards the science/nano/cryo movie I am trying to make. Please use your previously created  username and password (or register if you haven't already) to log into  http://www.offzhook.com after you have logged in, click view and vote, then  click on the Inspirations video by Gina Miller (http://www.offzhook.com/contestEntry.jsp?id=30) and check the purple box below the video. You can vote one time every  day until the 29th, so if you could, I would of course be very, very  thankful. Looks like I really could use your help right now too because I'm at zero percent. Happy holidays!!! If you need any help just email me. 
Thank you!!! Gina

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
The health stuff blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sat Dec 27 23:34:42 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:34:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
In-Reply-To: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>

By the way, if after you check the purple box you go to a java script error page, click your back arrow to go back to the page and check it one more time, it will then work.


Gina

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gina Miller 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:45 PM
  Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


  Hello fellow Extropes! Hope you are having a very merry Christmas.  Remember when you voted for my animation and I made it through that  first round well now it's for the final round of voting! The winner will take home 20 thousand dollars! If I can win this, I will use it towards the science/nano/cryo movie I am trying to make. Please use your previously created  username and password (or register if you haven't already) to log into  http://www.offzhook.com after you have logged in, click view and vote, then  click on the Inspirations video by Gina Miller (http://www.offzhook.com/contestEntry.jsp?id=30) and check the purple box below the video. You can vote one time every  day until the 29th, so if you could, I would of course be very, very  thankful. Looks like I really could use your help right now too because I'm at zero percent. Happy holidays!!! If you need any help just email me. 
  Thank you!!! Gina

  Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
  Nanotechnology Industries
  http://www.nanoindustries.com
  Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
  The health stuff blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/
  Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
  Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
  Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
  Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
  Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
  "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Dec 28 00:02:41 2008
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:02:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
	<3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>

And, if I understand correctly, I can vote again tomorrow?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gina Miller 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


  By the way, if after you check the purple box you go to a java script error page, click your back arrow to go back to the page and check it one more time, it will then work.


  Gina

  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Gina Miller 
    To: ExI chat list 
    Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:45 PM
    Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


    Hello fellow Extropes! Hope you are having a very merry Christmas.  Remember when you voted for my animation and I made it through that  first round well now it's for the final round of voting! The winner will take home 20 thousand dollars! If I can win this, I will use it towards the science/nano/cryo movie I am trying to make. Please use your previously created  username and password (or register if you haven't already) to log into  http://www.offzhook.com after you have logged in, click view and vote, then  click on the Inspirations video by Gina Miller (http://www.offzhook.com/contestEntry.jsp?id=30) and check the purple box below the video. You can vote one time every  day until the 29th, so if you could, I would of course be very, very  thankful. Looks like I really could use your help right now too because I'm at zero percent. Happy holidays!!! If you need any help just email me. 
    Thank you!!! Gina

    Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
    Nanotechnology Industries
    http://www.nanoindustries.com
    Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
    The health stuff blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/
    Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
    Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
    Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
    Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
    Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
    "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    extropy-chat mailing list
    extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec 28 00:26:02 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:26:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com><FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com><9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com><278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226214728.024c4628@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <098F385D9EF7416A849FFFF0FAE41AC4@MyComputer>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Kurzweil honored for inventing the Singularity


> At 08:53 PM 12/26/2008 -0600, Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> 
>>The very early emails are available with permission.  Max has many very
>>early emails saved on disk.
> 
> That's good to know!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec 28 00:29:57 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:29:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com><FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com><9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com><278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226214728.024c4628@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <89CD60B47CAC4E32B7233E4C69272E4C@MyComputer>

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
=================

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
=================

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
=================
One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
=================

Happy New Year all.

I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of 
people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have.
And I  am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to 
say something about this very important and obvious part of our natural
world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything
interesting to say about it.

You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an
eight's grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the
Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN
in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true
because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me
about it in a dream.

PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from
today.

    John K Clark





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 00:57:53 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:57:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <89CD60B47CAC4E32B7233E4C69272E4C@MyComputer>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
	<9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com>
	<278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226214728.024c4628@satx.rr.com>
	<89CD60B47CAC4E32B7233E4C69272E4C@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081227184746.0230ee90@satx.rr.com>

At 07:29 PM 12/27/2008 -0500, JKC wrote again:

>I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
>Nature or Science in the next year.

And as I reply every year, here is the place where your apparent 
logic needs further investigation =>

>And I  am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to 
>say something about this very important and obvious part of our 
>natural world if they could

Whatever leads you to that conclusion, given that both papers have a 
stringent policy *against* publishing anything in this area? 
(Although they did not always have that policy.)

And why is that? Here's a clue from the horse's mouth:

Nature 427, 277 (22 January 2004) | doi:10.1038/427277b


Telepathic charm seduces audience at paranormal debate

John Whitfield

Scientists tend to steer clear of public debates with advocates of 
the paranormal. And judging from the response of a London audience to 
a rare example of such a head-to-head conflict last week, they are 
wise to do so. [etc]

Damien Broderick




From asyluman at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 01:09:41 2008
From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:09:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
Message-ID: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>

Do any of y'all believe in free will?

I for one think causality obviously precludes any idea of free will and that
those that cling to some magical force are clinging to the same thing that
the religious do.
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 02:03:10 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:03:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812271803m4f409323yfceb0d010999edef@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do any of y'all believe in free will?

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:lists.extropy.org+%22free+will%22

[extropy-chat] Meta: Best To Regard Free Will as Existing
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-April/033877.html
"If there is a topic which should go on a universal banned list, this is it."

http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-April/033820.html
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-April/033836.html
and such.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Dec 28 02:13:22 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:13:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
In-Reply-To: <392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony><3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>
	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
Message-ID: <6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>

Yes! And I think on the 29th too! By the way did you get a java script error, just curious...

Gina 

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Olga Bourlin 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 4:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


  And, if I understand correctly, I can vote again tomorrow?
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Gina Miller 
    To: ExI chat list 
    Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:34 PM
    Subject: Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


    By the way, if after you check the purple box you go to a java script error page, click your back arrow to go back to the page and check it one more time, it will then work.


    Gina

    ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Gina Miller 
      To: ExI chat list 
      Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:45 PM
      Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


      Hello fellow Extropes! Hope you are having a very merry Christmas.  Remember when you voted for my animation and I made it through that  first round well now it's for the final round of voting! The winner will take home 20 thousand dollars! If I can win this, I will use it towards the science/nano/cryo movie I am trying to make. Please use your previously created  username and password (or register if you haven't already) to log into  http://www.offzhook.com after you have logged in, click view and vote, then  click on the Inspirations video by Gina Miller (http://www.offzhook.com/contestEntry.jsp?id=30) and check the purple box below the video. You can vote one time every  day until the 29th, so if you could, I would of course be very, very  thankful. Looks like I really could use your help right now too because I'm at zero percent. Happy holidays!!! If you need any help just email me. 
      Thank you!!! Gina

      Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
      Nanotechnology Industries
      http://www.nanoindustries.com
      Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
      The health stuff blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/
      Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
      Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
      Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
      Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
      Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
      "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________
      extropy-chat mailing list
      extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
      http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    extropy-chat mailing list
    extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
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  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 02:23:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:23:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081227202159.024711c8@satx.rr.com>

At 08:09 PM 12/27/2008 -0500, Will Steinberg wrote:

>Do any of y'all believe in free will?

To repeat my post from last year:

...Surely what we mean by "free to choose"
does not mean *canned but distinctive*, although that's part of our
sense of individuality. And quite obviously it doesn't mean "random".
It seems to me to follow from our capacity to compute or model a
sheaf of possible consequences (accurately or not is beside the
point) of alternative actions we might take soon or even in the long
run. We constantly acquire new and slightly or even drastically
surprising information, compress it, use it to modify our working
models or hold it ready to do so if the data seems relevant to some
emergent situation. So we can be *surprised* by choices, and by our
assessments, and by our meta-assessments of how we're likely to feel
if we act in one of several open ways, and all of this combines the
overabundance of new information from a world larger than our mental
workspace and memory, and the unexpected outcome of computations
conducted by modules the inner working of which escape our conscious scrutiny.

Damien Broderick




From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 03:14:47 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:44:47 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812271914y2b807cadg47b78673a28ee109@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/28 Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com>:
> Do any of y'all believe in free will?
>
> I for one think causality obviously precludes any idea of free will and that
> those that cling to some magical force are clinging to the same thing that
> the religious do.

Say I don't believe in free will. And that's quite plausible; as well
as a purely determined universe, there could also be determinism at
other levels. eg: we could have a non-deterministic universe, but it
might be argued that the algorithmic nature of genetics plus a bit of
initial-state chaotic fun really looks like a lot more like
undiscoverable pre-determination than free will. In fact I think
social science types mean that when they talk about determinism,
rather than the fundamental physics basis that most of us nerdcore
types would assume.

Anyway, say I don't believe in free will. Then how would that have an
effect on how I live, how I act? If any effect at all, then what is
being effected? My free will?

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From asyluman at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 02:42:29 2008
From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:42:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081227202159.024711c8@satx.rr.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081227202159.024711c8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <a40a2a7b0812271842v3ff3d087jebe372c1baf8fa00@mail.gmail.com>

What are you arguing?  I don't think its arguable that we don't have the *
appearance* of free will; we can definitely be surprised by our choices
because of inability to comprehend fully what is going on, but the actual
decisions are determined by physical law, no?

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> At 08:09 PM 12/27/2008 -0500, Will Steinberg wrote:
>
>  Do any of y'all believe in free will?
>>
>
> To repeat my post from last year:
>
> ...Surely what we mean by "free to choose"
> does not mean *canned but distinctive*, although that's part of our
> sense of individuality. And quite obviously it doesn't mean "random".
> It seems to me to follow from our capacity to compute or model a
> sheaf of possible consequences (accurately or not is beside the
> point) of alternative actions we might take soon or even in the long
> run. We constantly acquire new and slightly or even drastically
> surprising information, compress it, use it to modify our working
> models or hold it ready to do so if the data seems relevant to some
> emergent situation. So we can be *surprised* by choices, and by our
> assessments, and by our meta-assessments of how we're likely to feel
> if we act in one of several open ways, and all of this combines the
> overabundance of new information from a world larger than our mental
> workspace and memory, and the unexpected outcome of computations
> conducted by modules the inner working of which escape our conscious
> scrutiny.
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 04:44:19 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:44:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812271842v3ff3d087jebe372c1baf8fa00@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081227202159.024711c8@satx.rr.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812271842v3ff3d087jebe372c1baf8fa00@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081227223758.02310b30@satx.rr.com>

At 09:42 PM 12/27/2008 -0500, Will wrote:

>the actual decisions are determined by physical law, no?

By contrast to what alternative? Metaphysical caprice? Quantum 
indeterminacy? But as I commented, it *can't* mean "random"--nobody 
thinks the experience of free choice implies the toss of a die. Or do 
you? (I suppose a rigorous Many Worlds adherent might claim just 
that, if it were assumed that *every* option is always instantiated, 
including the option to be a potato orbiting Arcturus.)




From mlatorra at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 05:07:52 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:07:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>

Ben,
Practical fusion power -- whether from Bussard's Polywell generator or from
some other device -- has many advantages over space-based solar power
systems.

First, the Polywell systems could be built in units small enough to power a
city (or even a large town) which means they could be numerous and
dispersed. So if one unit went off-line, power could be diverted from other
units through the national electric energy grid (which needs improvement,
but does already exist). So instead of perhaps dozens of solar power
satellites, we could have thousands of Polywell fusion devices, which
improves the robustness of the overall system.

Second, the Polywell devices do not need to be launched into orbit, which
saves a lot on their cost of installation. Also, maintaining and repairing
orbital systems is expensive and dangerous. Just look at the difficulties
space shuttle astronauts experience in maintaining the Hubble space
telescope. Solar power satellites would be orders of magnitude larger and
more complicated.

Third, we live in a world that is not at peace. Terrorism and war are
constant threats. If a nation depended on solar power satellites for a
substantial portion of its energy, those satellites would become prime
targets. And orbital targets are extremely vulnerable. Even a bucket of
nails launched into orbit on a head-on collision course with a solar power
satellite would be enough to wreak it. China, Russia and other
nations already have the technical capability to intercept and destroy
orbital targets with explosive warheads. Another name for a solar power
satellite is "sitting duck."

Fourth -- as an extension of my third point -- some nations may claim that
our solar power satellites actually ARE weapons, or are "dual-use"
technologies that could be weaponized. The tremendous power passing through
these satellites, if used to power lasers or other high-energy weapons,
would turn these systems into space-based weapons platforms that other
nations would be right to fear.

For all those reasons and more, I believe that our research and development
money for energy systems would be better spent pursuing multiple paths to
fusion (including Polywell, ITER and various condensed matter schemes which
cost relatively little but offer huge potential payoffs). Although I love
space and want to see us become a space-faring species, I don't think that
solar power satellites are the right technology for this historical moment.

Regards,
Mike LaTorra

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:03 PM, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:

> Talking about what the Obama administration might and might not take into
> consideration:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell
>
>
> From the final section, "Current/future work":
>
> "In December 2008, further news was announced concerning progress.
> Following submission of the final WB-7 results, Dr Richard Nebel has
> commented that "There's nothing in there [the research] that suggests this
> will not work," but that "That's a very different statement from saying that
> it will work.". Of possible interest is the fact that US President-elect
> Barack Obama's chosen Energy Secretary Steven Chu is specifically aware of
> the project, though there is no evidence that this in itself will lead to
> any federal funding from an Obama administration. Eighteen months ago when
> questioned during a talk at Google, Chu remarked of the Polywell that "So
> far, there's not enough information so [that] I can give an evaluation of
> the probability that it might work or not...But I'm trying to get more
> information."
>
> Bussard seemed convinced that this design will work, if it's scaled up
> enough.
>
> So, assuming that this design does indeed work, and that Keith is right in
> saying:
> "it is a sure thing that running out of energy will kill
> an awful lot of people.  So I don't care if you are concerned about
> energy or global warming, they both lead to the need for space based
> solar power, or (second best) 10 to 20,000 nuclear reactors.",
>
> and Bussard's opinion that:
> "Thus, we have the ability to do away with oil (and other fossil fuels) but
> it will take 4-6 years and ca. $100-200M to build the full-scale plant and
> demonstrate it.",
> is correct, would the successful demonstration of a Polywell reactor be a
> good thing, or a bad thing, bearing in mind that it would be likely to kill
> any efforts to realise SPSs?
>
> I'm sure that it's extemely naive to look at the above figures and come up
> with $1 - 4 Trillion for Polywell reactors, as opposed to Keith's estimated,
> um, I don't know how much, and i'm not looking back through all the posts on
> this topic to find out, for enough powersats.
> Also, i don't see any mention of how much power these Polywell reactors
> could be expected to produce.
>
> So I suppose the point of this post is to ask:
> Polywell reactors, worth supporting or not?
> Bearing in mind that the design is already done, the principle is proven,
> and all that needs to be done, it seems, is the scaling up. ("Bussard
> believed that the system had demonstrated itself to the degree that no
> intermediate-scale models will be needed, and noted, "We are probably the
> only people on the planet who know how to make a real net power clean fusion
> system"": Robert W. Bussard (2006-03-29). "Inertial Electrostatic Fusion
> systems can now be built". fusor.net forums.)
>
> (Apologies if the Polywell design has already been discussed on here)
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 06:47:36 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 00:47:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] and speaking of Vinge
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228004704.024b4b18@satx.rr.com>

Here are some extracts from his latest interview, in LOCUS:

<http://www.locusmag.com/2008/Issue12_Vinge.html>



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec 28 07:27:26 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:27:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com><FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com><9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com><278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226214728.024c4628@satx.rr.com><89CD60B47CAC4E32B7233E4C69272E4C@MyComputer>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081227184746.0230ee90@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FDC94A1E6FBD4844952C3355CEE293F6@MyComputer>

Me:
>> I  am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say
>> something about this very important and obvious part of our natural world
>> if they could

"Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com>

> Whatever leads you to that conclusion

On I don't know, maybe because over the last century those 2 periodicals
have reported more new knowledge about the universe that we happen to live
in than anything else you could name. Absolutely anything!

And the reason you don't find articles about spiritualism, sorry I suppose I
should use the more trendy name Psi (sigh), is that the editors of those
periodicals (the smartest editors on planet Earth by the way) can't find
anybody who said anything interesting about it.

> given that both papers have a stringent policy *against* publishing
> anything in this area?

Extra virgin, government inspected, premium grade, 100% BULLSHIT! The only
stringent policy they have is *against* crappy papers. If there were any
truth to this sewage it would have been proven beyond doubt to everybody's
satisfaction centuries ago; this is after all not rocket science and you
don't need a 10 billion dollar accelerator to discover it. A High School kid
could prove the validity of Psi in his science fair project, or he could if
the fucking thing existed. But of course it doesn't.

> Scientists tend to steer clear of public debates with advocates of the
> paranormal.

Yea, and most scientists also steer clear about debates over creationism,
and the reason is the same, the entire matter is so stupid it's just
embarrassing.

 John K Clark






From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec 28 07:45:18 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:45:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0A27322393344AAEA5B4C1C72BA52133@MyComputer>

Will Steinberg

> Do any of y'all believe in free will?

I said it before I'll say it again, "Free Will" is an idea so bad it's not
even wrong: it's just a sound some people like to make with their mouth and
no more meaningful than a burp. I personally don't care much for the sound
myself.

 John K Clark






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 08:14:15 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:14:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <89CD60B47CAC4E32B7233E4C69272E4C@MyComputer>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com>
	<9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com>
	<FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com>
	<9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com>
	<278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081226214728.024c4628@satx.rr.com>
	<89CD60B47CAC4E32B7233E4C69272E4C@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228020309.024288c0@satx.rr.com>

At 07:29 PM 12/27/2008 -0500, JKC wrote:

>I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
>Nature or Science in the next year.

Suppose you'd confidently written that in 1973 
(as surely you would have done, since "the entire 
matter is so stupid it's just embarrassing"). 
Would you have suffered a moment's chagrin, in 
1974, upon opening your copy of that NO-BULLSHIT journal and reading

Targ, R. & Puthoff, H. "Information transfer 
under conditions of sensory shielding," Nature 252, 602?607?

How would you have felt in 1980, reading in Nature 284, 191 (13 March 1980)

"Information transmission in remote viewing experiments"
CHARLES T. TART, HAROLD E. PUTHOFF & RUSSELL TARG
*Department of Psychology, University of California, Davis, California 95616
?Radio Physical Laboratory, SRI International, Menlo Park, California 94025 ?

Oh, but that was so so so long ago, back before 
all scientists, engineers and the editors of 
NATURE were smart enough to know that "If there 
were any truth to this sewage it would have been 
proven beyond doubt to everybody's satisfaction centuries ago."

Damien Broderick





From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec 28 08:52:27 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 03:52:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081225123421.022bad58@satx.rr.com><62c14240812252216y36df4cfcw45d24ccc86bd5119@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081226003519.022e78f8@satx.rr.com><9AD25E2825A0469AAEBC0C8D4D9E8699@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226142813.022e7e20@satx.rr.com><FE0B39712D794F37B1EB5FAF61EE201D@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226193423.022cbcf0@satx.rr.com><9EC79CA321924B5AAC6D47FEA3AEF353@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226200125.0232c650@satx.rr.com><278920DC3E244D85B67E4938C7A1B53E@DFC68LF1><7.0.1.0.2.20081226214728.024c4628@satx.rr.com><89CD60B47CAC4E32B7233E4C69272E4C@MyComputer>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081228020309.024288c0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <A0AA885D05ED4B40963AF0BE3D035916@MyComputer>

"Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com>

> How would you have felt in 1980, reading in Nature 284, 191 (13 March
> 1980) "Information transmission in remote viewing experiments" CHARLES T.
> TART, HAROLD E. PUTHOFF & RUSSELL TARG

If I read that article in Nature 29 years ago I would have been totally
humiliated, as I am absolutely certain every fucking single editor of Nature
is humiliated now when they consider the matter. No exceptions. Not one. I
said before that the editors were the smartest editors on planet Earth and I
stand by that, but even a genius can have a rare brain fart.

 John K Clark






From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 10:54:56 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:54:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812280254u15549b24r7d410f157c14def8@mail.gmail.com>

Ben, I think one way to evaluate this is to compare this with SPS's on a
technology readiness scale (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Readiness_Level).  I think that's
what a lot of these discussions come to.  You're not going to convince
anyone with a sound theory without a demonstration first.  I'd put space
solar power at a level 5.  I think all of the components have been
demonstrated to work in relevant environments, but it's still lacking a
working prototype.  Is there a prototype Polywell reactor?

*Kevin*
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 13:02:05 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:02:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20812280502k27e6541cqd691c48ed1aed7fc@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com> wrote:

> Do any of y'all believe in free will?
>

I think that Wolfram's take of the problem has some merit.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 13:57:53 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:57:53 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/28 Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com>:
> Do any of y'all believe in free will?
>
> I for one think causality obviously precludes any idea of free will and that
> those that cling to some magical force are clinging to the same thing that
> the religious do.

The problem is with people who believe that free will exists, but it
not compatible with either determinism or equivalent to randomness.
This neither-determined-nor-random idea is incoherent.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From benboc at lineone.net  Sun Dec 28 16:53:48 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:53:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <mailman.129.1230430431.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.129.1230430431.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4957AF1C.5090004@lineone.net>

"Will Steinberg" <asyluman at gmail.com> aggravated:

> 
> Do any of y'all believe in free will?
> 
> I for one think causality obviously precludes any idea of free will and that
> those that cling to some magical force are clinging to the same thing that
> the religious do.

Yup.

I mean Nope.

I mean... Hang on. i'll flip a coin...

Ooops, that won't prove anything will it?

I seriously think that i'm predetermined to believe in free will.
(On the basis that this is way better than deciding, of your own free 
will, to believe in predetermination).

Causality does not preclude free will.

Free will is not equivalent to a magical force.

This topic really should be banned, you know.  Or hi-jacked into a 
thread about a certain film about a certain cetacian.

(The Universe knew I was going to decide to say that)

Ben Free-Willy Zaiboc


From davidmc at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 17:48:02 2008
From: davidmc at gmail.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:48:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <580930c20812280502k27e6541cqd691c48ed1aed7fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20812280502k27e6541cqd691c48ed1aed7fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c934387b0812280948s1bc08045ne219f5ed7bf43ad1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 6:02 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do any of y'all believe in free will?
>
> I think that Wolfram's take of the problem has some merit.

Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Evolves

Most definitions of free will are hopelessly incoherent, however the
concept can be made comprehensible if it is associated with the
ability of a system to determine its own behavior (or the extent that
it does so).


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 28 18:03:23 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:03:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <c934387b0812280948s1bc08045ne219f5ed7bf43ad1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com><580930c20812280502k27e6541cqd691c48ed1aed7fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<c934387b0812280948s1bc08045ne219f5ed7bf43ad1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <884DB354A6014437B6991756F9C0E8F2@spike>


...On Behalf Of David McFadzean

> > On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Will Steinberg 
> >>
> >> Do any of y'all believe in free will?
> >
> 
> Most definitions of free will are hopelessly incoherent...


Well David McFadzean.  We haven't heard from you in a looong time pal.
Welcome back, and do let us see your posts early and often.

spike 






From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Sun Dec 28 19:28:35 2008
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:28:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
In-Reply-To: <6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony><3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>


Gina,

I voted, at least I think I did.  It says thanks for your vote, but it 
still says VOTES: 0%.

I didn't get any kind of error.


Also, in case anyone has an additional moment, canonizer.com as 
attempting to get votes for Advanta's ideablob $10K prize.
Just go to http://canonizer.com and follow the link at the top of the page.

Thanks

Brent Allsop


Gina Miller wrote:
> Yes! And I think on the 29th too! By the way did you get a java script 
> error, just curious...
>  
> Gina
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>     *From:* Olga Bourlin <mailto:fauxever at sprynet.com>
>     *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 4:02 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
>
>     And, if I understand correctly, I can vote again tomorrow?
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         *From:* Gina Miller <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
>         *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>         *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:34 PM
>         *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
>
>         By the way, if after you check the purple box you go to a java
>         script error page, click your back arrow to go back to the
>         page and check it one more time, it will then work.
>          
>         Gina
>          
>         ----- Original Message -----
>
>             *From:* Gina Miller <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
>             *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>             *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:45 PM
>             *Subject:* [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
>
>             Hello fellow Extropes! Hope you are having a very merry
>             Christmas.  Remember when you voted for my animation and I
>             made it through that  first round well now it's for the
>             final round of voting! The winner will take home 20
>             thousand dollars! If I can win this, I will use it towards
>             the science/nano/cryo movie I am trying to make. Please
>             use your previously created  username and password (or
>             register if you haven't already) to log into 
>             http://www.offzhook.com after you have logged in, click
>             view and vote, then  click on the Inspirations video by
>             Gina Miller
>             (http://www.offzhook.com/contestEntry.jsp?id=30) and check
>             the purple box below the video. You can vote one time
>             every  day until the 29th, so if you could, I would of
>             course be very, very  thankful. Looks like I really could
>             use your help right now too because I'm at zero percent.
>             Happy holidays!!! If you need any help just email me.
>             Thank you!!! Gina
>
>             Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
>             Nanotechnology Industries
>             http://www.nanoindustries.com
>             Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
>             The health stuff blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/
>             Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
>             Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
>             Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
>             Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute 
>             http://www.extropy.org
>             Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
>             "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             _______________________________________________
>             extropy-chat mailing list
>             extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>             http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         _______________________________________________
>         extropy-chat mailing list
>         extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>         http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     extropy-chat mailing list
>     extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>     http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   



From scerir at libero.it  Sun Dec 28 20:41:16 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:41:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  potato orbiting Arcturus
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081227202159.024711c8@satx.rr.com><a40a2a7b0812271842v3ff3d087jebe372c1baf8fa00@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081227223758.02310b30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000301c9692c$a22bd970$a5e61e97@archimede>

> (I suppose a rigorous Many Worlds adherent might claim
> just that, if it were assumed that *every* option is
> always instantiated, including the option to be a potato
> orbiting Arcturus.)

This rigorous credo has been severely criticized (among
many others) by Dave Bacon (quantum theorist):
http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/2008/11/everything_and_nothing.php

ps: Also "decoherence" has been severely criticized
in the last 3/4 years, an abr?g? can be found
in this post by Arnold Neumaier:
http://tinyurl.com/8d6yr9





From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Dec 28 21:42:24 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:42:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> 2008/12/28 Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com>:
>> Do any of y'all believe in free will?
>>
>> I for one think causality obviously precludes any idea of free will and that
>> those that cling to some magical force are clinging to the same thing that
>> the religious do.
> 
> The problem is with people who believe that free will exists, but it
> not compatible with either determinism or equivalent to randomness.
> This neither-determined-nor-random idea is incoherent.
> 
> 

I exercise my free will to ignore yet another utterly pointless 
discussion on this topic.

- s


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Dec 28 21:44:09 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:44:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
In-Reply-To: <4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony><3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z><6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
	<4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B00E3D451AC847648938577A9F5CA99F@GinaSony>

Yes, I am very concerned about this. People are voting but the percent has not been increasing at all! They do have a contact form page here: http://www.offzhook.com/contactUs.jsp and I also emailed them at z at offzhook.com which is the email they sent the announcements from. However I have heard nothing and I am worried because it's the weekend, what if they are not in their offices on the weekend and Monday is the last day of the contest. We should probably continue to send in reports to them that this is happening. I hope people vote for me and when they do that somehow they can tell that the votes are coming in even though we can't? 


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brent Allsop 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!



  Gina,

  I voted, at least I think I did.  It says thanks for your vote, but it 
  still says VOTES: 0%.

  I didn't get any kind of error.


  Also, in case anyone has an additional moment, canonizer.com as 
  attempting to get votes for Advanta's ideablob $10K prize.
  Just go to http://canonizer.com and follow the link at the top of the page.

  Thanks

  Brent Allsop


  Gina Miller wrote:
  > Yes! And I think on the 29th too! By the way did you get a java script 
  > error, just curious...
  >  
  > Gina
  >  
  > ----- Original Message -----
  >
  >     *From:* Olga Bourlin <mailto:fauxever at sprynet.com>
  >     *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
  >     *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 4:02 PM
  >     *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
  >
  >     And, if I understand correctly, I can vote again tomorrow?
  >
  >         ----- Original Message -----
  >         *From:* Gina Miller <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
  >         *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
  >         *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:34 PM
  >         *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
  >
  >         By the way, if after you check the purple box you go to a java
  >         script error page, click your back arrow to go back to the
  >         page and check it one more time, it will then work.
  >          
  >         Gina
  >          
  >         ----- Original Message -----
  >
  >             *From:* Gina Miller <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
  >             *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
  >             *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:45 PM
  >             *Subject:* [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
  >
  >             Hello fellow Extropes! Hope you are having a very merry
  >             Christmas.  Remember when you voted for my animation and I
  >             made it through that  first round well now it's for the
  >             final round of voting! The winner will take home 20
  >             thousand dollars! If I can win this, I will use it towards
  >             the science/nano/cryo movie I am trying to make. Please
  >             use your previously created  username and password (or
  >             register if you haven't already) to log into 
  >             http://www.offzhook.com after you have logged in, click
  >             view and vote, then  click on the Inspirations video by
  >             Gina Miller
  >             (http://www.offzhook.com/contestEntry.jsp?id=30) and check
  >             the purple box below the video. You can vote one time
  >             every  day until the 29th, so if you could, I would of
  >             course be very, very  thankful. Looks like I really could
  >             use your help right now too because I'm at zero percent.
  >             Happy holidays!!! If you need any help just email me.
  >             Thank you!!! Gina
  >
  >             Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
  >             Nanotechnology Industries
  >             http://www.nanoindustries.com
  >             Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
  >             The health stuff blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/
  >             Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
  >             Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
  >             Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
  >             Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute 
  >             http://www.extropy.org
  >             Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
  >             "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  >
  >             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >             _______________________________________________
  >             extropy-chat mailing list
  >             extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  >             http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  >
  >         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >         _______________________________________________
  >         extropy-chat mailing list
  >         extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  >         http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  >
  >     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >     _______________________________________________
  >     extropy-chat mailing list
  >     extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  >     http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  >
  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >
  > _______________________________________________
  > extropy-chat mailing list
  > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  >   

  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 22:03:02 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:03:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] potato orbiting Arcturus
In-Reply-To: <000301c9692c$a22bd970$a5e61e97@archimede>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081227202159.024711c8@satx.rr.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812271842v3ff3d087jebe372c1baf8fa00@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081227223758.02310b30@satx.rr.com>
	<000301c9692c$a22bd970$a5e61e97@archimede>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228155736.025d4450@satx.rr.com>

At 09:41 PM 12/28/2008 +0100, Serafino wrote:

> > (I suppose a rigorous Many Worlds adherent might claim
> > just that, if it were assumed that *every* option is
> > always instantiated, including the option to be a potato
> > orbiting Arcturus.)
>
>This rigorous credo has been severely criticized

I know, I was being naughty--there's no direct path (that I can 
discern, anyway) from the state of a person now on earth to 
instantiation as a potato anywhere, let alone 11 parsecs away.

I like the comment

< I had fun a few years ago writing a section called "The Fewer 
Worlds Theory of Quantum Mechanics" in a paper aimed, among other 
things, at correcting certain popular misconceptions about quantum 
mechanics and quantum computing (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0702121).

Posted by: <http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0702121>Eleanor Rieffel >

Damien Broderick





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 22:13:45 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:13:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Obama
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228161203.0252df20@satx.rr.com>

from Scott Aaronson's Shtetl-Optimized blog:

December 26th, 2008

1. The CRA?s <http://www.cra.org/ccc/>Computing 
Community Consortium, chaired by national 
treasure <http://lazowska.cs.washington.edu/>Ed 
Lasowska of the University of Washington, 
recently put up a website with 
<http://www.cra.org/ccc/initiatives>fifteen brief 
essays about ?Computing Research Initiatives for 
the 21st Century.?  These essays will apparently 
be reviewed by the science policy staff at the 
Obama transition office.  Dave Bacon and I wrote 
the 
<http://www.cra.org/ccc/docs/init/Quantum_Computing.pdf>essay 
on quantum computing?or rather, Dave wrote it 
with his inimitable enthusiasm, and then I tried 
in vain to moderate it slightly.  (When Dave told 
me that President-elect Obama needed my help with 
quantum computing policy, what was I going to 
say?  ?Sorry, I?m doing my laundry this weekend??)



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 22:19:34 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:19:34 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
	<4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/29 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:

> I exercise my free will to ignore yet another utterly pointless discussion
> on this topic.

Which you clearly haven't done by posting.

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 28 22:29:07 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:29:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
	<4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228162730.0253ae88@satx.rr.com>

At 09:19 AM 12/29/2008 +1100, Stathis wrote:

>2008/12/29 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
>
> > I exercise my free will to ignore yet another utterly pointless discussion
> > on this topic.
>
>Which you clearly haven't done by posting.

That's because Will goaded Samantha into posting.

Damien Broderick




From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 28 22:26:58 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:26:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] battery breakthru
In-Reply-To: <4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony><3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z><6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
	<4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>


Let's hope this is fer real:

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batt
eries&id=18086





From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 28 23:24:43 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:24:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] battery breakthru
In-Reply-To: <7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
	<3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>
	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
	<4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
	<7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812281524kef69d6ci82b008620f5df26b@mail.gmail.com>

Hot damn!!!  This development is amazing and considering the
people/organizations backing them it appears this just may be The Real
McCoy.  *The power and glory of Obama is already enlightening the world!  *

John  : )
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 00:07:33 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:07:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "currently on the Imminst u-stream channel!"
Message-ID: <2d6187670812281607h2dbe3bcdi5c2d6c98859b6aad@mail.gmail.com>

I am at the moment watching on u-stream Mind/Justin, the current leader of
the Immortality Institute.  And to boost ratings he is doing an impromptu
cooking show, complete with his cat supervising things. hee  Justin's a good
guy and is doing all he can to get a viewership of at least 50 people.  What
ideas do any of you have to enlarge his audience?

John

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sunday-evening-update
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 00:10:19 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:10:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ben,
> Practical fusion power -- whether from Bussard's Polywell generator or from
> some other device -- has many advantages over space-based solar power
> systems.
>
> First, the Polywell systems could be built in units small enough to power a
> city (or even a large town) which means they could be numerous and
> dispersed. So if one unit went off-line, power could be diverted from other
> units through the national electric energy grid (which needs improvement,
> but does already exist). So instead of perhaps dozens of solar power
> satellites, we could have thousands of Polywell fusion devices, which
> improves the robustness of the overall system.

Not dozens.  The US alone requires several hundred.

> Second, the Polywell devices do not need to be launched into orbit, which
> saves a lot on their cost of installation. Also, maintaining and repairing
> orbital systems is expensive and dangerous. Just look at the difficulties
> space shuttle astronauts experience in maintaining the Hubble space
> telescope. Solar power satellites would be orders of magnitude larger and
> more complicated.

It's just a matter of cost.  Can you give us a price for the power?
If you can get below penny a kWh, you beat the best projected cost.

> Third, we live in a world that is not at peace. Terrorism and war are
> constant threats. If a nation depended on solar power satellites for a
> substantial portion of its energy, those satellites would become prime
> targets. And orbital targets are extremely vulnerable. Even a bucket of
> nails launched into orbit on a head-on collision course with a solar power
> satellite would be enough to wreak it. China, Russia and other
> nations already have the technical capability to intercept and destroy
> orbital targets with explosive warheads. Another name for a solar power
> satellite is "sitting duck."

If China, Russia, the US and other nations have power sats they are
most unlikely to be lauching nails or nukes at them.

And most forms of fusion are big neutron sources.  You sure you want
largle numbers of neutron sources around?

> Fourth -- as an extension of my third point -- some nations may claim that
> our solar power satellites actually ARE weapons, or are "dual-use"
> technologies that could be weaponized. The tremendous power passing through
> these satellites, if used to power lasers or other high-energy weapons,
> would turn these systems into space-based weapons platforms that other
> nations would be right to fear.

That's true, but don't forget that a power sat can't hit anything
that's not under it.

> For all those reasons and more, I believe that our research and development
> money for energy systems would be better spent pursuing multiple paths to
> fusion (including Polywell, ITER and various condensed matter schemes which
> cost relatively little but offer huge potential payoffs). Although I love
> space and want to see us become a space-faring species, I don't think that
> solar power satellites are the right technology for this historical moment.

That's a seriously inconsistant possition.  If power sats make
economic sense, and they are one of very few sources that scale large
enough to replace fossil fuels, then we should do them--regardless of
power sats being a path into space.

Frankly I don't think there is time for humans to go into space before
the singularity comes crashing down on us.

Best wishes,

Keith

> Regards,
> Mike LaTorra
>
> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:03 PM, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:
>>
>> Talking about what the Obama administration might and might not take into
>> consideration:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell
>>
>>
>> From the final section, "Current/future work":
>>
>> "In December 2008, further news was announced concerning progress.
>> Following submission of the final WB-7 results, Dr Richard Nebel has
>> commented that "There's nothing in there [the research] that suggests this
>> will not work," but that "That's a very different statement from saying that
>> it will work.". Of possible interest is the fact that US President-elect
>> Barack Obama's chosen Energy Secretary Steven Chu is specifically aware of
>> the project, though there is no evidence that this in itself will lead to
>> any federal funding from an Obama administration. Eighteen months ago when
>> questioned during a talk at Google, Chu remarked of the Polywell that "So
>> far, there's not enough information so [that] I can give an evaluation of
>> the probability that it might work or not...But I'm trying to get more
>> information."
>>
>> Bussard seemed convinced that this design will work, if it's scaled up
>> enough.
>>
>> So, assuming that this design does indeed work, and that Keith is right in
>> saying:
>> "it is a sure thing that running out of energy will kill
>> an awful lot of people.  So I don't care if you are concerned about
>> energy or global warming, they both lead to the need for space based
>> solar power, or (second best) 10 to 20,000 nuclear reactors.",
>>
>> and Bussard's opinion that:
>> "Thus, we have the ability to do away with oil (and other fossil fuels)
>> but it will take 4-6 years and ca. $100-200M to build the full-scale plant
>> and demonstrate it.",
>> is correct, would the successful demonstration of a Polywell reactor be a
>> good thing, or a bad thing, bearing in mind that it would be likely to kill
>> any efforts to realise SPSs?
>>
>> I'm sure that it's extemely naive to look at the above figures and come up
>> with $1 - 4 Trillion for Polywell reactors, as opposed to Keith's estimated,
>> um, I don't know how much, and i'm not looking back through all the posts on
>> this topic to find out, for enough powersats.
>> Also, i don't see any mention of how much power these Polywell reactors
>> could be expected to produce.
>>
>> So I suppose the point of this post is to ask:
>> Polywell reactors, worth supporting or not?
>> Bearing in mind that the design is already done, the principle is proven,
>> and all that needs to be done, it seems, is the scaling up. ("Bussard
>> believed that the system had demonstrated itself to the degree that no
>> intermediate-scale models will be needed, and noted, "We are probably the
>> only people on the planet who know how to make a real net power clean fusion
>> system"": Robert W. Bussard (2006-03-29). "Inertial Electrostatic Fusion
>> systems can now be built". fusor.net forums.)
>>
>> (Apologies if the Polywell design has already been discussed on here)
>>
>> Ben Zaiboc
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From femmechakra at yahoo.ca  Sun Dec 28 23:55:04 2008
From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:55:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] A mental thought
Message-ID: <133689.68935.qm@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

If you wish for a million dollars tomorrow well you better pray hard!  It doesn't happen the way you program it.  The Whole New Idea behind Artificial IT is knowing the difference between real, reality, laws and well combined terms and agreements.   IT has been subjected to just as much testing as the same simple mathematical equations in other diverse subjects.  Everybody one day is a test subject, wouldn't we all agree?  

Be careful what you wish for as knowledge makes everyone a test subject:)

As for the Holiday Season, I wish everyone a really nice vacation and Happy Holidays, may you're New Year be properous and eventfull, may your ideas be helpfull and creative and may you continue to be honest and sincere.

Best Wishes,
Anna
 



      __________________________________________________________________
Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 29 00:37:05 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:37:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] battery breakthru
In-Reply-To: <7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
	<3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>
	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
	<4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
	<7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228183348.024acd20@satx.rr.com>

At 02:26 PM 12/28/2008 -0800, spike wrote:

>Let's hope this is fer real:

<http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&id=18086>

Yeah, but that was 2 years ago.

More recent claims:

<http://www.cleantech.com/news/companies/eestor> 



From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 00:54:36 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:54:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] battery breakthru
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228183348.024acd20@satx.rr.com>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
	<3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>
	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
	<4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
	<7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081228183348.024acd20@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812281654s55d0a216t4a898c3cb7526750@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/28/08, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, but that was 2 years ago.
>
> More recent claims:
>
> <http://www.cleantech.com/news/companies/eestor>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

See also here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor#Status .

Sounds like vaporware, but I'd love to be proved otherwise.  Thanks for the
links though, I haven't heard of this technology before now.

*Kevin*
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 29 00:27:58 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:27:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net><9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB2558ECD7B4FFDA9B308FAB91A6FC4@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Keith Henson
...
> 
> Frankly I don't think there is time for humans to go into 
> space before the singularity comes crashing down on us.
> 
> Best wishes, Keith
>

Keith I quietly came to the same conclusion over the past year since you and
I have been discussing heavy-lift to GEO.  I have a pretty good feel for the
pace of this kind of stuff, and estimated it would take fifty years if we
really managed to get the ball rolling.  I expect the singularity to happen
sooner than we can get either space based power generation or significant
benefit from global warming.

spike 



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 04:11:42 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:11:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <3CB2558ECD7B4FFDA9B308FAB91A6FC4@spike>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
	<3CB2558ECD7B4FFDA9B308FAB91A6FC4@spike>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0812282011m2ef5806dj2492017dd755bb7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 5:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> ...On Behalf Of Keith Henso
>>
>> Frankly I don't think there is time for humans to go into
>> space before the singularity comes crashing down on us.
>>
>> Best wishes, Keith
>>
> Keith I quietly came to the same conclusion over the past year since you and
> I have been discussing heavy-lift to GEO.  I have a pretty good feel for the
> pace of this kind of stuff, and estimated it would take fifty years if we
> really managed to get the ball rolling.

The lift project and the power sat production have to be done by about
2015 if they are going to be of any use in replacing fossil fuels.
Considering the length of time, the consequences of not doing the job,
and the fact we have done harder things in shorter times, I see no
reason that we could not set up to make a GW/day of power sat in 6 or
7 years.  Of course it could not be done in business as usual mode.
Nor do I think the the US would even be the lead country in the
project.

> I expect the singularity to happen
> sooner than we can get either space based power generation or significant
> benefit from global warming.

I feel that the singularity will probably be here before a 30 year
power sat production run is done.  But I can't tell you exactly how
long it will take.  The problem is that running out of energy is a bad
enough disaster that even the US could see famines--kids starving.
Power sats might not be the answer, but we have to find *some*
solution to fill the gap.  The next best I know of right now is
building some ten to twenty thousand nuclear reactors.  That's a less
than ideal solution for other reasons.

Power sats have the additional advantages that (if they make sense at
all) they offer the possibility of an energy abundant future where
synthetic liquid fuels could be made for under a dollar a gallon.  Of
course a lot of people think that's a worse idea than famines.

Keith


From mlatorra at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 04:52:32 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:52:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>

Keith,
Estimates of cost per kwh for fusion range from 10 cents US to 1/10th cent
US. This compares favorably with other sources, at the least, and blows away
all others at best. (see
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/11/easy-low-cost-no-radiation-fusion.html
 )

You say that if China, Russia and others have solar power sats, then they
are unlikely to be threatening ours (or one another's). Based on history, I
doubt that claim. Rather, it would seem more likely that each will seek to
protect its own sats while developing plausible means to threaten the sats
of others. This practically guarantees the militarization of space.

And that's without considering non-state actors, AKA terrorists, especially
al-Qaida and its ilk, who would like nothing better than to bring down the
power sats of all the aforementioned nations.

Most form of fusoin do produce neutrons, and this is a potential concern.
But when you've got lemons, you can make lemonade: Bussard proposed using
high energy neutrons from DT fusion to burn up nuclear waste, generating
energy and reducing remaining radioactive half lives from 4,000 and 5,000
years to 40 to 90 years. (see
http://www.askmar.com/ConferenceNotes/Should%20Google%20Go%20Nuclear.pdf )

You said that a power sat can't hit anything that's not under it. Do you
mean that it is impossible to create a directable beam? Surely such a thing
is possible. From geostationary orbit, a substantial portion of the globe is
potentially targetable, as is a large volume of low earth orbital space.

My being in favor of space development in general, but *not this particular
project at this particular time*, is not inconsistent at all; it's merely
prudential.

Regards and best wishes,
Mike LaTorra

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Ben,
> > Practical fusion power -- whether from Bussard's Polywell generator or
> from
> > some other device -- has many advantages over space-based solar power
> > systems.
> >
> > First, the Polywell systems could be built in units small enough to power
> a
> > city (or even a large town) which means they could be numerous and
> > dispersed. So if one unit went off-line, power could be diverted from
> other
> > units through the national electric energy grid (which needs improvement,
> > but does already exist). So instead of perhaps dozens of solar power
> > satellites, we could have thousands of Polywell fusion devices, which
> > improves the robustness of the overall system.
>
> Not dozens.  The US alone requires several hundred.
>
> > Second, the Polywell devices do not need to be launched into orbit, which
> > saves a lot on their cost of installation. Also, maintaining and
> repairing
> > orbital systems is expensive and dangerous. Just look at the difficulties
> > space shuttle astronauts experience in maintaining the Hubble space
> > telescope. Solar power satellites would be orders of magnitude larger and
> > more complicated.
>
> It's just a matter of cost.  Can you give us a price for the power?
> If you can get below penny a kWh, you beat the best projected cost.
>
> > Third, we live in a world that is not at peace. Terrorism and war are
> > constant threats. If a nation depended on solar power satellites for a
> > substantial portion of its energy, those satellites would become prime
> > targets. And orbital targets are extremely vulnerable. Even a bucket of
> > nails launched into orbit on a head-on collision course with a solar
> power
> > satellite would be enough to wreak it. China, Russia and other
> > nations already have the technical capability to intercept and destroy
> > orbital targets with explosive warheads. Another name for a solar power
> > satellite is "sitting duck."
>
> If China, Russia, the US and other nations have power sats they are
> most unlikely to be lauching nails or nukes at them.
>
> And most forms of fusion are big neutron sources.  You sure you want
> largle numbers of neutron sources around?
>
> > Fourth -- as an extension of my third point -- some nations may claim
> that
> > our solar power satellites actually ARE weapons, or are "dual-use"
> > technologies that could be weaponized. The tremendous power passing
> through
> > these satellites, if used to power lasers or other high-energy weapons,
> > would turn these systems into space-based weapons platforms that other
> > nations would be right to fear.
>
> That's true, but don't forget that a power sat can't hit anything
> that's not under it.
>
> > For all those reasons and more, I believe that our research and
> development
> > money for energy systems would be better spent pursuing multiple paths to
> > fusion (including Polywell, ITER and various condensed matter schemes
> which
> > cost relatively little but offer huge potential payoffs). Although I love
> > space and want to see us become a space-faring species, I don't think
> that
> > solar power satellites are the right technology for this historical
> moment.
>
> That's a seriously inconsistant possition.  If power sats make
> economic sense, and they are one of very few sources that scale large
> enough to replace fossil fuels, then we should do them--regardless of
> power sats being a path into space.
>
> Frankly I don't think there is time for humans to go into space before
> the singularity comes crashing down on us.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Keith
>
> > Regards,
> > Mike LaTorra
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:03 PM, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Talking about what the Obama administration might and might not take
> into
> >> consideration:
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell
> >>
> >>
> >> From the final section, "Current/future work":
> >>
> >> "In December 2008, further news was announced concerning progress.
> >> Following submission of the final WB-7 results, Dr Richard Nebel has
> >> commented that "There's nothing in there [the research] that suggests
> this
> >> will not work," but that "That's a very different statement from saying
> that
> >> it will work.". Of possible interest is the fact that US President-elect
> >> Barack Obama's chosen Energy Secretary Steven Chu is specifically aware
> of
> >> the project, though there is no evidence that this in itself will lead
> to
> >> any federal funding from an Obama administration. Eighteen months ago
> when
> >> questioned during a talk at Google, Chu remarked of the Polywell that
> "So
> >> far, there's not enough information so [that] I can give an evaluation
> of
> >> the probability that it might work or not...But I'm trying to get more
> >> information."
> >>
> >> Bussard seemed convinced that this design will work, if it's scaled up
> >> enough.
> >>
> >> So, assuming that this design does indeed work, and that Keith is right
> in
> >> saying:
> >> "it is a sure thing that running out of energy will kill
> >> an awful lot of people.  So I don't care if you are concerned about
> >> energy or global warming, they both lead to the need for space based
> >> solar power, or (second best) 10 to 20,000 nuclear reactors.",
> >>
> >> and Bussard's opinion that:
> >> "Thus, we have the ability to do away with oil (and other fossil fuels)
> >> but it will take 4-6 years and ca. $100-200M to build the full-scale
> plant
> >> and demonstrate it.",
> >> is correct, would the successful demonstration of a Polywell reactor be
> a
> >> good thing, or a bad thing, bearing in mind that it would be likely to
> kill
> >> any efforts to realise SPSs?
> >>
> >> I'm sure that it's extemely naive to look at the above figures and come
> up
> >> with $1 - 4 Trillion for Polywell reactors, as opposed to Keith's
> estimated,
> >> um, I don't know how much, and i'm not looking back through all the
> posts on
> >> this topic to find out, for enough powersats.
> >> Also, i don't see any mention of how much power these Polywell reactors
> >> could be expected to produce.
> >>
> >> So I suppose the point of this post is to ask:
> >> Polywell reactors, worth supporting or not?
> >> Bearing in mind that the design is already done, the principle is
> proven,
> >> and all that needs to be done, it seems, is the scaling up. ("Bussard
> >> believed that the system had demonstrated itself to the degree that no
> >> intermediate-scale models will be needed, and noted, "We are probably
> the
> >> only people on the planet who know how to make a real net power clean
> fusion
> >> system"": Robert W. Bussard (2006-03-29). "Inertial Electrostatic Fusion
> >> systems can now be built". fusor.net forums.)
> >>
> >> (Apologies if the Polywell design has already been discussed on here)
> >>
> >> Ben Zaiboc
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mlatorra at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 04:55:17 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:55:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0812282011m2ef5806dj2492017dd755bb7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
	<3CB2558ECD7B4FFDA9B308FAB91A6FC4@spike>
	<d1988d2d0812282011m2ef5806dj2492017dd755bb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550812282055g2175d94cu945e10037ee5b600@mail.gmail.com>

Keith,
If Bussard's Polywell fusor works as well as it seems to (according to best
available information to date), then it can easily be online in commercial
form inside that year 2015 time window.

Mike

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 5:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >
> >> ...On Behalf Of Keith Henso
> >>
> >> Frankly I don't think there is time for humans to go into
> >> space before the singularity comes crashing down on us.
> >>
> >> Best wishes, Keith
> >>
> > Keith I quietly came to the same conclusion over the past year since you
> and
> > I have been discussing heavy-lift to GEO.  I have a pretty good feel for
> the
> > pace of this kind of stuff, and estimated it would take fifty years if we
> > really managed to get the ball rolling.
>
> The lift project and the power sat production have to be done by about
> 2015 if they are going to be of any use in replacing fossil fuels.
> Considering the length of time, the consequences of not doing the job,
> and the fact we have done harder things in shorter times, I see no
> reason that we could not set up to make a GW/day of power sat in 6 or
> 7 years.  Of course it could not be done in business as usual mode.
> Nor do I think the the US would even be the lead country in the
> project.
>
> > I expect the singularity to happen
> > sooner than we can get either space based power generation or significant
> > benefit from global warming.
>
> I feel that the singularity will probably be here before a 30 year
> power sat production run is done.  But I can't tell you exactly how
> long it will take.  The problem is that running out of energy is a bad
> enough disaster that even the US could see famines--kids starving.
> Power sats might not be the answer, but we have to find *some*
> solution to fill the gap.  The next best I know of right now is
> building some ten to twenty thousand nuclear reactors.  That's a less
> than ideal solution for other reasons.
>
> Power sats have the additional advantages that (if they make sense at
> all) they offer the possibility of an energy abundant future where
> synthetic liquid fuels could be made for under a dollar a gallon.  Of
> course a lot of people think that's a worse idea than famines.
>
> Keith
>  _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From asyluman at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 00:31:47 2008
From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:31:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081228162730.0253ae88@satx.rr.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
	<4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081228162730.0253ae88@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <a40a2a7b0812281631w3c714c18s5c9974bb10101335@mail.gmail.com>

It may have come off like a pointless philosophical question a sixteen year
old like myself might ask, but I was honestly just trying to gauge how
"hard-determinist" people here are.  I don't think I goaded anyone into
posting; I thought the childish practices of petty internet arguing and
pissing contests were left behind when I reached a certain intellectual
level but I guess they are always gonna be around.

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> At 09:19 AM 12/29/2008 +1100, Stathis wrote:
>
>  2008/12/29 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
>>
>> > I exercise my free will to ignore yet another utterly pointless
>> discussion
>> > on this topic.
>>
>> Which you clearly haven't done by posting.
>>
>
> That's because Will goaded Samantha into posting.
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 05:24:31 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:54:31 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <a40a2a7b0812281631w3c714c18s5c9974bb10101335@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
	<4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081228162730.0253ae88@satx.rr.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812281631w3c714c18s5c9974bb10101335@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812282124t7fd2a3a3u41f648900bbfff3f@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/29 Will Steinberg <asyluman at gmail.com>:
I don't think I goaded anyone into
> posting; I thought the childish practices of petty internet arguing and
> pissing contests were left behind when I reached a certain intellectual
> level but I guess they are always gonna be around.

Damien was just joking around with your name; you can also read it as
"That's because Free Will goaded Samantha into posting." But it's not
funny if you have to explain it :-(

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec 29 07:41:03 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 02:41:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fusion (was Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power)
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C47F20437BD4924AA5C5EFE1E8A80B1@MyComputer>

Michael LaTorra

> Practical fusion power -- whether from Bussard's Polywell
> generator or from some other device -- has many
> advantages over space-based solar power systems.

I like Bussard's Polywell because if it works it will be dirt cheap, and we
could figure out if it really is going to work with just a few million
dollars. The trouble with the conventional approach to fusion, the Tokamak,
is that even if you reach energy break even the machine would be so
huge, complex, expensive, and hard to maintain that it may never be
economic.

The approach Focus Fusion likes would be even cheaper than Polywell if it
worked, but that seems even more unlikely; however I could be wrong
and it probably deserves a few bucks.

The General Fusion people have yet another way to produce Fusion but to my
mind it seems completely nuts. Maybe I'm missing something but to me it
almost seems like an elaborate practical joke, but somehow they found an
investor willing to put a few million into the company.

Finally we have Tri Alpha Energy which is more than 10 times better funded
than all these other approaches put together thanks to Microsoft co founder
Paul Alan. Unfortunately we know almost nothing about what they're up to,
the company has been in Stealth Mode for over a year. All they'll say is
that they're trying to make a commercial reactor that fuses the most common
isotope of hydrogen with the most common isotope of Boron, a reaction that
produces no neutrons and hence no harmful radiation. Nobody knows
exactly how they propose to do this, or at least nobody who knows is saying.
I wish them luck.

 John K Clark






From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Dec 29 07:48:00 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:48:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <495880B0.4080107@mac.com>

Michael LaTorra wrote:
> Keith,
> Estimates of cost per kwh for fusion range from 10 cents US to 1/10th 
> cent US. This compares favorably with other sources, at the least, and 
> blows away all others at best. (see 
> http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/11/easy-low-cost-no-radiation-fusion.html )
>  
> You say that if China, Russia and others have solar power sats, then 
> they are unlikely to be threatening ours (or one another's). Based on 
> history, I doubt that claim. Rather, it would seem more likely that each 
> will seek to protect its own sats while developing plausible means to 
> threaten the sats of others. This practically guarantees the 
> militarization of space.

Then you have a MAD situation where any attack on your neighbors power 
sat loses your own.

>  
> And that's without considering non-state actors, AKA terrorists, 
> especially al-Qaida and its ilk, who would like nothing better than to 
> bring down the power sats of all the aforementioned nations.

Uh huh.  How exactly is a weakly funded (compared to a state) 
organization going to get the means to reach and knock down a 
geosynchronous power sat?  That would require advanced space capability. 
This a pretty unreasonable bit of FUD.



>  
> Most form of fusoin do produce neutrons, and this is a 
> potential concern. But when you've got lemons, you can make lemonade: 
> Bussard proposed using high energy neutrons from DT fusion to burn up 
> nuclear waste, generating energy and reducing remaining radioactive half 
> lives from 4,000 and 5,000 years to 40 to 90 years. (see 
> http://www.askmar.com/ConferenceNotes/Should%20Google%20Go%20Nuclear.pdf ) 
>  
> You said that a power sat can't hit anything that's not under it. Do you 
> mean that it is impossible to create a directable beam? Surely such a 
> thing is possible. From geostationary orbit, a substantial portion of 
> the globe is potentially targetable, as is a large volume of low earth 
> orbital space.

The beam density from a power sat is not designed or (unless on purpose) 
tunable to a concentration usable as a weapon.

- samantha


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 29 09:15:51 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:15:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812282124t7fd2a3a3u41f648900bbfff3f@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
	<4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081228162730.0253ae88@satx.rr.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812281631w3c714c18s5c9974bb10101335@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812282124t7fd2a3a3u41f648900bbfff3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081229031334.022e2500@satx.rr.com>

At 03:54 PM 12/29/2008 +1030, Emlyn wrote:

>But it's not funny if you have to explain it :-(

:-( indeed. Maybe it takes another Australian to get my throw-away quips.

And never forget: the shortest distance between two puns is a straight-line.

Damien Broderick 



From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 12:04:34 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:04:34 +1100
Subject: [ExI] A mental thought
In-Reply-To: <133689.68935.qm@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <133689.68935.qm@web110401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812290404j7a4e5f4eka4a9cde3734b7f29@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/29 Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca>:

> If you wish for a million dollars tomorrow well you better pray hard!  It doesn't happen the way you program it.  The Whole New Idea behind Artificial IT is knowing the difference between real, reality, laws and well combined terms and agreements.   IT has been subjected to just as much testing as the same simple mathematical equations in other diverse subjects.  Everybody one day is a test subject, wouldn't we all agree?
>
> Be careful what you wish for as knowledge makes everyone a test subject:)

I'm afraid I find this too enigmatic. Could you restate it imagining
you are talking to a prosaic AI?


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From benboc at lineone.net  Mon Dec 29 11:58:39 2008
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:58:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <mailman.144.1230500669.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.144.1230500669.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4958BB6F.3050702@lineone.net>

"Kevin H" <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> Says:

> Ben, I think one way to evaluate this is to compare this with SPS's
> on a technology readiness scale ( 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Readiness_Level). I think
> that's what a lot of these discussions come to. You're not going to
> convince anyone with a sound theory without a demonstration first.
> I'd put space solar power at a level 5. I think all of the components
> have been demonstrated to work in relevant environments, but it's
> still lacking a working prototype. Is there a prototype Polywell
> reactor?


Several prototype models have been built, see the Wiki article for 
details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell

Ben Zaiboc


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 12:13:08 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:13:08 +1100
Subject: [ExI] battery breakthru
In-Reply-To: <7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
	<3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>
	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
	<4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
	<7C03B0086CF246CF9D3BA6D524E9A607@spike>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812290413v6330f496sbee87c4ef3cfe6b0@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/29 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
> Let's hope this is fer real:
>
> http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batt
> eries&id=18086

The best thing about these would be that they don't wear out. I hate
the idea of buying a car with half a tonne of storage batteries that
will become useless after after a few hundred cycles.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 12:52:15 2008
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:52:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fusion (was Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar
	Power)
In-Reply-To: <1C47F20437BD4924AA5C5EFE1E8A80B1@MyComputer>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<1C47F20437BD4924AA5C5EFE1E8A80B1@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <580930c20812290452o3e6ef16fo79010b71ad8ed974@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:41 AM, John K Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The trouble with the conventional approach to fusion, the Tokamak,
> is that even if you reach energy break even the machine would be so
> huge, complex, expensive, and hard to maintain that it may never be
> economic.

Mmhhh, "huge, complex, expensive, and hard to maintain" are all issues
which are typically solved by scale economies and technologica
progress. In any event, contrary to the opinion of many, all that
appears to create additional challenges which may well generate
beneficial byproducts...

My feasibility concerns have more to do with the growing "cultural"
and systemic inability of our societies to invest in long-term,
large-scale projects.


-- 
Stefano Vaj


From eschatoon at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 15:41:48 2008
From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:41:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Review of The Physics of Christianity, by Frank Tipler
In-Reply-To: <1c2bc9140812290739q606a75a7m7f257fbc8ba9997d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c2bc9140812290739q606a75a7m7f257fbc8ba9997d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90812290741i261df058s722805b285234b7@mail.gmail.com>

A short Review of The Physics of Christianity, by Frank Tipler FYC. Enjoy.

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/comments/review_of_the_physics_of_christianity_by_frank_tipler/


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 29 16:42:16 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:42:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081229031334.022e2500@satx.rr.com>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com><4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com><f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081228162730.0253ae88@satx.rr.com><a40a2a7b0812281631w3c714c18s5c9974bb10101335@mail.gmail.com><710b78fc0812282124t7fd2a3a3u41f648900bbfff3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081229031334.022e2500@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1EABF6A8C3E84B0AB89C064AA2F1B874@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
...
> 
> And never forget: the shortest distance between two puns is a 
> straight-line. Damien Broderick 


Arc arc arc.

NOW the punsters come out.  Where were you guys the couple weeks before
Newtonmass?  It was far too somber and to pious this year, all the serious
discussion with so little cutting up.  There is still time before the 2009
humor tax comes into effect.

spike






From scerir at libero.it  Mon Dec 29 17:32:40 2008
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:32:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Review of The Physics of Christianity, by Frank Tipler
References: <1c2bc9140812290739q606a75a7m7f257fbc8ba9997d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1fa8c3b90812290741i261df058s722805b285234b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c969db$73e8a2f0$e40b4797@archimede>

Eschatoon Magic:
A short Review of The Physics of Christianity, by Frank Tipler FYC. Enjoy.
http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/comments/review_of_the_physics_of_christianity_by_frank_tipler/


Thanks. Exians interested in other approaches should read
papers rhat Don Page (good physicist, sometimes manyworlder too)
is writing just now.
http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Page_D/0/1/0/all/0/1




From asyluman at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 17:26:21 2008
From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:26:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <1EABF6A8C3E84B0AB89C064AA2F1B874@spike>
References: <a40a2a7b0812271709u79a8d191h920f4121f1b04799@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30812280557x7caa5105se6b1e8dbff06b100@mail.gmail.com>
	<4957F2C0.5030902@mac.com>
	<f21c22e30812281419x4d0abcb3q60fd7e8060cc93b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081228162730.0253ae88@satx.rr.com>
	<a40a2a7b0812281631w3c714c18s5c9974bb10101335@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0812282124t7fd2a3a3u41f648900bbfff3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081229031334.022e2500@satx.rr.com>
	<1EABF6A8C3E84B0AB89C064AA2F1B874@spike>
Message-ID: <a40a2a7b0812290926m6c74cdb3la253617a10268fb3@mail.gmail.com>

Damn my name.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 11:42 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> ...
> >
> > And never forget: the shortest distance between two puns is a
> > straight-line. Damien Broderick
>
>
> Arc arc arc.
>
> NOW the punsters come out.  Where were you guys the couple weeks before
> Newtonmass?  It was far too somber and to pious this year, all the serious
> discussion with so little cutting up.  There is still time before the 2009
> humor tax comes into effect.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Mon Dec 29 20:41:48 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:41:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
In-Reply-To: <B00E3D451AC847648938577A9F5CA99F@GinaSony>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony><3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z><6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony><4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
	<B00E3D451AC847648938577A9F5CA99F@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <AC568AD517A045B6A36F5A650224322A@GinaSony>

So I heard back from the contest people. They said that the other entry had such higher numbers that I would need 100 instead of the 35 I have. There are only 8 hours left to vote! The only way to win is for me to catch up! I'm going to try and get more people to register and vote. So please vote! And if you can get anyone else to register and vote, it would help  so much. See below for previous instructions! 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gina Miller 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 1:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


  Yes, I am very concerned about this. People are voting but the percent has not been increasing at all! They do have a contact form page here: http://www.offzhook.com/contactUs.jsp and I also emailed them at z at offzhook.com which is the email they sent the announcements from. However I have heard nothing and I am worried because it's the weekend, what if they are not in their offices on the weekend and Monday is the last day of the contest. We should probably continue to send in reports to them that this is happening. I hope people vote for me and when they do that somehow they can tell that the votes are coming in even though we can't? 


  Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
  Nanotechnology Industries
  http://www.nanoindustries.com
  Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
  Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
  Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
  Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
  Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
  Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
  "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Brent Allsop 
    To: ExI chat list 
    Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:28 AM
    Subject: Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!



    Gina,

    I voted, at least I think I did.  It says thanks for your vote, but it 
    still says VOTES: 0%.

    I didn't get any kind of error.


    Also, in case anyone has an additional moment, canonizer.com as 
    attempting to get votes for Advanta's ideablob $10K prize.
    Just go to http://canonizer.com and follow the link at the top of the page.

    Thanks

    Brent Allsop


    Gina Miller wrote:
    > Yes! And I think on the 29th too! By the way did you get a java script 
    > error, just curious...
    >  
    > Gina
    >  
    > ----- Original Message -----
    >
    >     *From:* Olga Bourlin <mailto:fauxever at sprynet.com>
    >     *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
    >     *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 4:02 PM
    >     *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
    >
    >     And, if I understand correctly, I can vote again tomorrow?
    >
    >         ----- Original Message -----
    >         *From:* Gina Miller <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
    >         *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
    >         *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 3:34 PM
    >         *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
    >
    >         By the way, if after you check the purple box you go to a java
    >         script error page, click your back arrow to go back to the
    >         page and check it one more time, it will then work.
    >          
    >         Gina
    >          
    >         ----- Original Message -----
    >
    >             *From:* Gina Miller <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
    >             *To:* ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
    >             *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:45 PM
    >             *Subject:* [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
    >
    >             Hello fellow Extropes! Hope you are having a very merry
    >             Christmas.  Remember when you voted for my animation and I
    >             made it through that  first round well now it's for the
    >             final round of voting! The winner will take home 20
    >             thousand dollars! If I can win this, I will use it towards
    >             the science/nano/cryo movie I am trying to make. Please
    >             use your previously created  username and password (or
    >             register if you haven't already) to log into 
    >             http://www.offzhook.com after you have logged in, click
    >             view and vote, then  click on the Inspirations video by
    >             Gina Miller
    >             (http://www.offzhook.com/contestEntry.jsp?id=30) and check
    >             the purple box below the video. You can vote one time
    >             every  day until the 29th, so if you could, I would of
    >             course be very, very  thankful. Looks like I really could
    >             use your help right now too because I'm at zero percent.
    >             Happy holidays!!! If you need any help just email me.
    >             Thank you!!! Gina
    >
    >             Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
    >             Nanotechnology Industries
    >             http://www.nanoindustries.com
    >             Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
    >             The health stuff blog: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/
    >             Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
    >             Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
    >             Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
    >             Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute 
    >             http://www.extropy.org
    >             Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
    >             "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
    >
    >             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >             _______________________________________________
    >             extropy-chat mailing list
    >             extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    >             http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
    >
    >         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >         _______________________________________________
    >         extropy-chat mailing list
    >         extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    >         http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
    >
    >     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >     _______________________________________________
    >     extropy-chat mailing list
    >     extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    >     http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
    >
    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > extropy-chat mailing list
    > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
    >   

    _______________________________________________
    extropy-chat mailing list
    extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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From mlatorra at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 23:33:58 2008
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:33:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <495880B0.4080107@mac.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>
	<495880B0.4080107@mac.com>
Message-ID: <9ff585550812291533v613d6423pd53c947ae42345fe@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 12:48 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

>
>
> The beam density from a power sat is not designed or (unless on purpose)
> tunable to a concentration usable as a weapon.
>
> - samantha


Right. And what's to prevent it being designed to be tunable and
directable from the start, as a sort of "just in case" military
ace-in-the-hole?
Answer: Nothing.

As for the mutually-assured-destruction (MAD) situation: We lucked out that
none of the false alarms during the Cold War ever precipitated a
launch-on-warning nuclear attack. MAD is not inherently stable or safe.

Finally, as technology advances, even non-state actors (terrorists) may
eventually obtain the means to attack orbiting platforms. But even before
that, such attacks will still be possible. Remember, al-Qaida did not need
its own air force in order to destroy the World Trade Towers or hit the
Pentagon; they only needed to take control of someone else's craft.

Regards,
Mike
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 02:04:13 2008
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:04:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1988d2d0812291804s74cc7e14n5ff104e50b759260@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Keith,
> Estimates of cost per kwh for fusion range from 10 cents US to 1/10th cent
> US. This compares favorably with other sources, at the least, and blows away
> all others at best. (see
> http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/11/easy-low-cost-no-radiation-fusion.html )

When you come back with a range of 100 to one in cost, I am concerned
that you don't really understand what is it going to cost.  The
formula for costing out synthetic fuel is $20 for capital and carbon
and $10 x cost of power in pennies per kWh.  10 cents per kWh is
$120/bbl oil.  You might remember what gasoline cost last summer when
oil was at $120/bbl.

Cost of power from power sats ignoring minor elements is capital cost
in dollars/80,000.

Capital cost is rectenna plus power sat parts (in $/kW) plus kg/kW x
$/kg lift cost.  Assuming reasonable number $200 + $200 + 4 x $100
leads to penny a kW power.  This makes it clear that a 200 to one
reduction from current cost to GEO is required.  Fortunately that
seems possible (the physics limit is 15 cents).

> You say that if China, Russia and others have solar power sats, then they
> are unlikely to be threatening ours (or one another's). Based on history, I
> doubt that claim. Rather, it would seem more likely that each will seek to
> protect its own sats while developing plausible means to threaten the sats
> of others. This practically guarantees the militarization of space.

More likely they will be built by Chinese and sold to anyone who wants
them.  Or would you propose that the US should go to war to prevent
the Chinese from solving their energy problems?

> And that's without considering non-state actors, AKA terrorists, especially
> al-Qaida and its ilk, who would like nothing better than to bring down the
> power sats of all the aforementioned nations.

Power sats have to deal with high velocity inpacts every day from
natural sources.  You are proposing that some non state actor can
launch enough mass to be a problem?

> Most form of fusoin do produce neutrons, and this is a potential concern.
> But when you've got lemons, you can make lemonade: Bussard proposed using
> high energy neutrons from DT fusion to burn up nuclear waste, generating
> energy and reducing remaining radioactive half lives from 4,000 and 5,000
> years to 40 to 90 years. (see
> http://www.askmar.com/ConferenceNotes/Should%20Google%20Go%20Nuclear.pdf )

Nuclear waste with a lot of Pu 240 in it is not my concern.  What I am
concerned about is pure PU 329 made from depleted uranium and any
neutron source.  Read the end notes here
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301 and let me know if
my fears on this topic are unfounded.

> You said that a power sat can't hit anything that's not under it. Do you
> mean that it is impossible to create a directable beam? Surely such a thing
> is possible. From geostationary orbit, a substantial portion of the globe is
> potentially targetable, as is a large volume of low earth orbital space.

Beams are line of sight.  They don't go through the earth.  Microwaves
can't be focused tight enough to do damage, but lasers can be.  I
think we need ton of TNT per second propulsion lasers for the power
sat program to make sense.

> My being in favor of space development in general, but not this particular
> project at this particular time, is not inconsistent at all; it's merely
> prudential.

Ok.  What specific space development do you favor?

And if fusion doesn't work, then what do you propose to do to prevent
famines and resource wars from reducing the world population to one or
two billion in the next few decades?  Or do you think that's a good
idea?

Keith

> Regards and best wishes,
> Mike LaTorra
>
> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Ben,
>> > Practical fusion power -- whether from Bussard's Polywell generator or
>> > from
>> > some other device -- has many advantages over space-based solar power
>> > systems.
>> >
>> > First, the Polywell systems could be built in units small enough to
>> > power a
>> > city (or even a large town) which means they could be numerous and
>> > dispersed. So if one unit went off-line, power could be diverted from
>> > other
>> > units through the national electric energy grid (which needs
>> > improvement,
>> > but does already exist). So instead of perhaps dozens of solar power
>> > satellites, we could have thousands of Polywell fusion devices, which
>> > improves the robustness of the overall system.
>>
>> Not dozens.  The US alone requires several hundred.
>>
>> > Second, the Polywell devices do not need to be launched into orbit,
>> > which
>> > saves a lot on their cost of installation. Also, maintaining and
>> > repairing
>> > orbital systems is expensive and dangerous. Just look at the
>> > difficulties
>> > space shuttle astronauts experience in maintaining the Hubble space
>> > telescope. Solar power satellites would be orders of magnitude larger
>> > and
>> > more complicated.
>>
>> It's just a matter of cost.  Can you give us a price for the power?
>> If you can get below penny a kWh, you beat the best projected cost.
>>
>> > Third, we live in a world that is not at peace. Terrorism and war are
>> > constant threats. If a nation depended on solar power satellites for a
>> > substantial portion of its energy, those satellites would become prime
>> > targets. And orbital targets are extremely vulnerable. Even a bucket of
>> > nails launched into orbit on a head-on collision course with a solar
>> > power
>> > satellite would be enough to wreak it. China, Russia and other
>> > nations already have the technical capability to intercept and destroy
>> > orbital targets with explosive warheads. Another name for a solar power
>> > satellite is "sitting duck."
>>
>> If China, Russia, the US and other nations have power sats they are
>> most unlikely to be lauching nails or nukes at them.
>>
>> And most forms of fusion are big neutron sources.  You sure you want
>> largle numbers of neutron sources around?
>>
>> > Fourth -- as an extension of my third point -- some nations may claim
>> > that
>> > our solar power satellites actually ARE weapons, or are "dual-use"
>> > technologies that could be weaponized. The tremendous power passing
>> > through
>> > these satellites, if used to power lasers or other high-energy weapons,
>> > would turn these systems into space-based weapons platforms that other
>> > nations would be right to fear.
>>
>> That's true, but don't forget that a power sat can't hit anything
>> that's not under it.
>>
>> > For all those reasons and more, I believe that our research and
>> > development
>> > money for energy systems would be better spent pursuing multiple paths
>> > to
>> > fusion (including Polywell, ITER and various condensed matter schemes
>> > which
>> > cost relatively little but offer huge potential payoffs). Although I
>> > love
>> > space and want to see us become a space-faring species, I don't think
>> > that
>> > solar power satellites are the right technology for this historical
>> > moment.
>>
>> That's a seriously inconsistant possition.  If power sats make
>> economic sense, and they are one of very few sources that scale large
>> enough to replace fossil fuels, then we should do them--regardless of
>> power sats being a path into space.
>>
>> Frankly I don't think there is time for humans to go into space before
>> the singularity comes crashing down on us.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> > Regards,
>> > Mike LaTorra
>> >
>> > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:03 PM, ben <benboc at lineone.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Talking about what the Obama administration might and might not take
>> >> into
>> >> consideration:
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From the final section, "Current/future work":
>> >>
>> >> "In December 2008, further news was announced concerning progress.
>> >> Following submission of the final WB-7 results, Dr Richard Nebel has
>> >> commented that "There's nothing in there [the research] that suggests
>> >> this
>> >> will not work," but that "That's a very different statement from saying
>> >> that
>> >> it will work.". Of possible interest is the fact that US
>> >> President-elect
>> >> Barack Obama's chosen Energy Secretary Steven Chu is specifically aware
>> >> of
>> >> the project, though there is no evidence that this in itself will lead
>> >> to
>> >> any federal funding from an Obama administration. Eighteen months ago
>> >> when
>> >> questioned during a talk at Google, Chu remarked of the Polywell that
>> >> "So
>> >> far, there's not enough information so [that] I can give an evaluation
>> >> of
>> >> the probability that it might work or not...But I'm trying to get more
>> >> information."
>> >>
>> >> Bussard seemed convinced that this design will work, if it's scaled up
>> >> enough.
>> >>
>> >> So, assuming that this design does indeed work, and that Keith is right
>> >> in
>> >> saying:
>> >> "it is a sure thing that running out of energy will kill
>> >> an awful lot of people.  So I don't care if you are concerned about
>> >> energy or global warming, they both lead to the need for space based
>> >> solar power, or (second best) 10 to 20,000 nuclear reactors.",
>> >>
>> >> and Bussard's opinion that:
>> >> "Thus, we have the ability to do away with oil (and other fossil fuels)
>> >> but it will take 4-6 years and ca. $100-200M to build the full-scale
>> >> plant
>> >> and demonstrate it.",
>> >> is correct, would the successful demonstration of a Polywell reactor be
>> >> a
>> >> good thing, or a bad thing, bearing in mind that it would be likely to
>> >> kill
>> >> any efforts to realise SPSs?
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure that it's extemely naive to look at the above figures and come
>> >> up
>> >> with $1 - 4 Trillion for Polywell reactors, as opposed to Keith's
>> >> estimated,
>> >> um, I don't know how much, and i'm not looking back through all the
>> >> posts on
>> >> this topic to find out, for enough powersats.
>> >> Also, i don't see any mention of how much power these Polywell reactors
>> >> could be expected to produce.
>> >>
>> >> So I suppose the point of this post is to ask:
>> >> Polywell reactors, worth supporting or not?
>> >> Bearing in mind that the design is already done, the principle is
>> >> proven,
>> >> and all that needs to be done, it seems, is the scaling up. ("Bussard
>> >> believed that the system had demonstrated itself to the degree that no
>> >> intermediate-scale models will be needed, and noted, "We are probably
>> >> the
>> >> only people on the planet who know how to make a real net power clean
>> >> fusion
>> >> system"": Robert W. Bussard (2006-03-29). "Inertial Electrostatic
>> >> Fusion
>> >> systems can now be built". fusor.net forums.)
>> >>
>> >> (Apologies if the Polywell design has already been discussed on here)
>> >>
>> >> Ben Zaiboc
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From kanzure at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 02:14:42 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:14:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [Open Manufacturing] Fwd: What's all this about "open",
	anyway? (long)
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812291806r550c8642o7b9082dc43150771@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55ad6af70812291806r550c8642o7b9082dc43150771@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812291814q62902c91nd43af1a8a583b8a9@mail.gmail.com>

I sent this over to the diybio mailing list, and is probably worth forwarding.

http://diybio.org/
"DIYbio is an organization that aims to help make biology a worthwhile
pursuit for citizen scientists, amateur biologists, and DIY biological
engineers who value openness and safety. This will require mechanisms
for amateurs to increase their knowledge and skills, access to a
community of experts, the development of a code of ethics, responsible
oversight, and leadership on issues that are unique to doing biology
outside of traditional professional settings."

http://groups.google.com/group/diybio

Because of the recent news that was made by AP, the mailing list has
been experiencing +20 users/day for the past few days, so it's all
very exciting, although trying to introduce many new people at once to
some of the diybio concepts floating around is kinda hard without some
consolidation. Thus, email was born, or something.

- Bryan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:06 PM
Subject: What's all this about "open", anyway? (long)
To: diybio at googlegroups.com, kanzure at gmail.com


Hi all,

I don't think we've ever gone explicitly over the idea of the
debian/ubuntu social contracts, and how those concepts might be useful
in pursuing our shared interests as diybio grows. From what I saw at
BioBarCamp 2008, where many of us found each other in person, there's
a lot of positive effort and energy being channeled in these
directions, so the very least I can do is document a little bit of it
from all over the web. This is a draft at best, so go easy on me :-).

This email is more like a safari tour through some relevant portions
of the internet that are of interest to diybio and maybe developing
'contracts', so if somebody else wants to write something more
coherent, go ahead- this is more like bibliography material, but also
interesting for those who don't know about these developments. With
some annotation and running commentary :-). I hope others comment on
some of these excerpts.

((At the bottom and very end is the debian and ubuntu social contracts
or codes of conduct for an example, but it's best taken in context
with everything else in this email)). (((This is also re: IP law and
some other recent topics on the list.)))

http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Biotechnology
http://rsss.anu.edu.au/~janeth/
http://rsss.anu.edu.au/~janeth/OpenSourceBiotechnology27July2005.pdf (thesis)
"""
"Open Source licensing is a style of intellectual property management
that has evolved in the past half-decade out of the Free Software
movement, initiated in the early 1980s in response to restrictive
copyright licensing practices adopted by commercial software
developers. The Open Source approach seeks to preserve ongoing
community access to proprietary software tools without precluding or
discouraging commercial involvement in their development.

"Open Source Biotechnology" refers to the possibility of extending the
principles of commerce-friendly, commons-based peer production
exemplified by Open Source software development to the development of
research tools in biomedical and agricultural biotechnology."
(http://rsss.anu.edu.au/~janeth/)
"""

Janet Hope:
"Since the 1980's, the life sciences have undergone a process of rapid
commercialization. The legal mechanism for this process of
commercialization has been the expansion of intellectual property (IP)
protection to inventions that were previously regarded as
unpatentable. The result has been a literally exponential increase in
applications for biotechnology patents.

These patents not only protect inventions that are valuable as end
products; they also protect early stage inventions and research tools.
Advances in biotechnology require the use of many of the latter, for
which researchers must obtain licenses from patent owners. A good
example is "golden rice", which utilized more than 70 different
patented procedures and processes. To get permission to use all of
these tools, scientists enter into multiple negotiations for each
piece of IP. These mounting transaction costs can retard, and in some
cases completely undermine, their scientific projects. Even if they
are not prevented from pursuing research itself, institutions may find
that the rights of other IP holders prevent them from commercializing
the fruits of their labor.

In biomedicine, there are considerable social costs associated with
working within this expensive proprietary system. These stem from the
fact that such costs are beyond the resources of the smallest
participants, or would-be participants, in the industry. Market forces
will naturally tend to direct efforts by big private sector players to
where there is the most substantial return on investment. This means
research goals are inevitably being narrowed to those that will be
most profitable, though not necessarily most useful. Thus, it is often
not commercially worthwhile for the biomedical industry to devote
significant resources to addressing medical or social needs, such as
drugs for very common diseases like tuberculosis or malaria.

Similarly, in agriculture, breeding strategies will be oriented
towards major crops in developed country markets, not towards finding
genetic traits with characteristics that are useful to poor farmers.
The last few years have also seen a series of mergers and acquisitions
that have dramatically consolidated the industry, with a huge portion
of fundamental research tools ending up in the hands of a tiny number
of big multinationals. This level of industry concentration has
inevitably led to the overpricing of technologies and the exclusion of
innovative start-ups and public sector institutions. This, in turn,
means that smaller firms can't get a foot in the door.

This situation has been described as a "tragedy of the anticommons."
In contrast to the tragedy of the commons, when a public resource is
overused because there is no one owner to regulate it, a tragedy of
the anticommons occurs when a resource is underused because it has
been divided up by a number of owners who may not be willing to agree
or cooperate with one another."

Can Open Source Licensing Work With Biotechnology? (still with Janet Hope)
"""
"When I spoke to Bruce Perens, who helped define the basis for open
source development in his aptly titled document, The Open Source
Definition, he took the view that the open source biotechnology
movement does not aim to create a particular legal framework. Instead,
it is a form of social engineering. There is no question that one
could produce a legally binding open source license in biotechnology
if one wanted to?the real question is whether anyone will use it.

The different proprietary regimes that prevail in the software and
biotechnology contexts are important to consider in answering this
question. Both software code and biotechnology innovations are
protected under a mixture of licensing systems , but the primary one
in software is copyright, whereas in biotechnology it is patents. The
cost of patent protection can be substantial, whereas copyright
protection arises automatically and without cost to the owner. Also,
patent fees are usually at least partly recovered from licensees under
the remuneration clauses in a proprietary license.

Second, standardized licenses appear to be important for keeping
transaction costs low in open source software, but this approach may
be less applicable outside a digital context. Biotechnology
innovations are far more diverse in terms of composition than
software, which is essentially non-physical and instantly
reproducible. Defining rights in living biological materials, given
their capacity for self-replication and mutation, is difficult.
Determining what constitutes an improvement to a licensed biological
technology is also challenging. This aspect would be especially
critical in open source applications. As stated earlier, open source
licenses generally require that improvements to the technology be made
available to the other users. Naturally, this is far more difficult
when the medium is biological matter, as opposed to digital
information.

To explore how open source might translate into the biotechnology
context, it is necessary to characterize it in terms of generalized
principles, as distinct from software-specific features. Although it
is becoming a popular subject of study for people in many disciplines,
no unifying principle has yet emerged as the dominant approach. I have
chosen to view open source development through the lens of a
relatively new theory from the field of innovation management, known
as User Innovation Theory
"""

For those of you who don't know Bruce:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Perens  (do I have to remind anyone
that Wikipedia, itself, is licensed under the GFDL?)
"""
Bruce Perens is a computer programmer and advocate in the open source
community. He created the Open Source Definition and published the
first formal announcement and manifesto of open source.[1] He
co-founded the Open Source Initiative with Eric S. Raymond.[2] In
2005, Perens represented Open Source at the United Nations World
Summit on the Information Society, at the invitation of the United
Nations Development Program.[3] He has appeared before national
legislatures and is often quoted in the press, advocating for open
source and the reform of national and international technology policy.
"""

This part is also relevant:
http://rsss.anu.edu.au/~janeth/OSBiotech.html
"""
In the end, the proof for the viability open source biotechnology is
not tied to the ultimate success of open source software. Open source
software is simply the basis for an analogy?the seed of an idea rather
than a rigid formula for success."
(http://www.gene-watch.org/genewatch/articles/18-1Hope.html)
"""

http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Science_Licenses
http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue12_6/burk/index.html
"""
Copyleft?style licensing has also been applied to physical materials,
such as the biological materials made available via the Biological
Innovation for Open Society project or "BIOS" (Boettiger and Burk,
2004). The BIOS project is intended to make publicly available certain
biological research tools and techniques, and to attract contributions
of further research tools. While the project organizers are not
adverse to users of these tools filing patents on discoveries made by
use of the tools, the intention is to preserve public access to the
tools themselves. The danger to such access comes from patenting of
improvements or modifications that users might make to the basic
tools, encumbering the basic tools with proprietary claims.
Internet?based electronic resources offer information about the tools
and their use, and facilitate contact for physical transfer of the
tools, but physical access is conditioned on agreement not to patent
any improvements or modifications to the tools, and to make any such
modifications or improvements available on the same terms. No such
restrictions are placed upon products or discoveries generated by use
of the tools; such products or discoveries can be patented without
limitation.

However, it is critical to recognize that such application of the open
source copyleft model to research data and other resources
contemplates a different intellectual property system ? the patent
system ? than the copyright system in which the licensing scheme was
developed. This transfer of the open source "copyleft" model from the
legal regime of copyright to that of patent presents several
difficulties. As an initial matter, it is worth observing that the
"open source" designation is something of a misnomer in the patent
context. Patents require as a condition for the grant of exclusive
rights a disclosure of the invention sufficient to allow one of skill
to make and use the claimed invention. As a practical matter, this
disclosure for software this may not always include source code; for
biotechnology, the disclosure typically does include macromolecular
sequence data. But in either case, the disclosure requirements of
patenting should effectuate the goal of the "open source" movement to
publish the technical data necessary to allow tinkering, improvement,
and critique of the invention.

Thus, at least in theory, the patent system already entails a level of
disclosure sufficient to allow the sort of access for tinkering and
improvement envisioned by the open source and free software movement.
But as a practical matter, such tinkering and improvement of the
disclosed invention may be effectively precluded by the exclusive
rights conferred under the patent. As mentioned above, some
jurisdictions provide little or no room in the patent system for
experimental use or reverse engineering. And, even if the details of
an invention are already made accessible in the patent, the use of the
term "open source" in this context may rather signal a philosophical
commitment to "openness" or "free" science paralleling that of the
free software movement.

Transfer of the copyleft licensing model to the patent environment
also raises legal considerations not present in a copyright
environment (Boettiger and Burk, 2004; Feldman, 2005). First, the
nature of the exclusive rights ? granted by copyright and by patent ?
are quite different. Copyright excludes unauthorized copying and
related activities ? activities that are triggered by access to the
protected work. Such access serves as the trigger or activating event
for the copyleft license ? copying or adapting the open source code
opens the copyist or adapter to a lawsuit unless the copying or
adapting is done in accordance with the terms of the license. But
patent rights exclude all uses of the claimed invention, even those
conducted independently, without any access to the invention. In such
cases, the infringing act would not serve to channel the infringer
into compliance with the terms of the license, as there would be no
knowledge, let alone manifestation of assent, to the license.

Second, the restrictions on further patenting that are incorporated
into some "open biology" licenses may run afoul of the general public
policy of the patent system. In the United States particularly,
federal statutory and constitutional law encourages patenting, and
licenses deterring patents may be preempted. Additionally, and perhaps
more seriously, patents raise competition law considerations that are
not necessarily present under copyright law. Certain types of patent
licensing arrangements are subject to extra antitrust scrutiny, such
as patent "pools," in which participants cross license one another's
patents, patent "grant?backs," which require licensing of technology
developed with a patented tool back to the patent owner, and patent
"reach?through," which requires payment of royalties to a patent owner
for products developed with a patented tool. Patenting restrictions in
open biology licenses resemble these types of arrangement ? for
example, requiring products developed with "open source" biology tools
to be licensed back to others on an "open source" basis ? and so may
raise antitrust concerns.

But the greatest obstacle to movement of "copyleft" licenses into
electronic research collaborations may be the social disparity between
the licenses' original open source milieu and that of scientific
research settings (Burk, 2005a). There are marked differences in the
organizational and institutional networks of each community. Despite
the some apparent congruence between the normative expectations in
each community, academic science as currently practiced, particularly
in industrialized nations, has a different and far more complicated
profile than that of the open source community. The scientific
community is older and more institutionally invested, with a decided
organizational structure not present in open source coding.

Despite its profession of "openness," academic science has an
effectively hierarchical organization at the level of individual
laboratories, as well as at the level of professional association.

Graduate and undergraduate training in the sciences also contributes a
distinct social sub?structure to the scientific community.
Additionally, academic science is heavily subsidized by governmental
grants, with the result that funding agencies may have interests and
involvement in the disposition of intellectual property, both at the
level of formal agency objectives and in the biases or preferences of
peer review committees. Other formal institutions, such as
institutional ethics review boards, university technology transfer
offices, and peer?review journal publishers may also play roles not
contemplated by the open source licensing system.

Such normative considerations may complicate the development of
licenses that would ameliorate the legal conflicts issues in
cyberinfrastructure. The success of the copyleft model in software
development is due in no small part to strong buttressing of the
license by the normative expectations of the community. In the broader
scientific context, it is unclear whether the license will have the
same status, the same social meaning, and the same success in a
different community setting.
"""

How likely is it that pharmaceutical companies would go open source?
http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Biotechnology#How_likely_is_it_that_pharmaceutical_companies_would_go_open_source.3F
"""
2. Established business practice: Pharmaceutical companies rely
heavily on patent positions - whether or not they have a patent on a
particular pharmaceutical product makes a big difference both to the
results of their operations in terms of the economics of selling
drugs, and to the company's valuation on the stock market; and this
translates into a big emphasis on IP, to a degree even in areas that
aren't really related to their proprietary position on their drug
products. In other words, not sharing IP is deeply ingrained. To a
large degree the biotech industry has inherited that culture of not
sharing. The costs of changing established business practice are very
real in terms of organisational structure and providing incentives for
your employees to shift the way they look at things - and so there is
plenty of inertia for large, established companies like the big pharma
companies when it comes to adopting fundamentally new business models
like open source.
"""

"""
1. One established use of open source business strategies in the
software context is to pre-empt the establishment of proprietary
technological standards owned by your rivals. Even though
pharmaceutical companies hate sharing, one thing they hate even more
is being beholden to a single supplier for some critical value driver.
This means they might be prepared to put money into an open source
biotech company that planned to come up with a really critical tool --
say a toxicology tool that would help predict R&D failures before a
drug hit the expensive clinical phase of development. This is a
significant example because currently, exclusive patent positions are
important to biotech start-ups largely as a way to attract capital. So
this kind of support would provide a credible alternative story for
biotech start-ups to tell potential investors and thus could promote
the development of open source strategies in the biotechnology sector.
"""

There's also a quote from Rob Carlson on that page--
http://synthesis.typepad.com/synthesis/2007/03/thoughts_on_ope.html
"""
When I first heard Drew Endy utter the phrase "Open Source Biology",
it was within the broader context of living in Berkeley, trying to
understand the future of biology as technology, and working in an
environment (the then embryonic Molecular Sciences Institute) that
encouraged thinking anything was possible. It was also within the
context of Microsoft's domination of the OS market, the general
technology boom in the San Francisco Bay area, the skyrocketing cost
of drug development coupled to a stagnation of investment return on
those dollars, and the obvious gap in our capabilities in designing
and building biological systems. OSB seemed the right strategy to get
to where I thought we ought to be in the future, which is to create
the ability to tinker effectively, perhaps someday even to engineer
biology, and to employ biology as technology for solving some of the
many problems humans face, and that humans have created.

As in 2000, I remain today most interested in maintaining, and
enhancing, the ability to innovate. In particular, I feel that safe
and secure innovation is likely to be best achieved through
distributed research and through distributed biological manufacturing.
By "Open Biology" I mean access to the tools and skills necessary to
participate in that innovation and distributed economy.

"Open source biology" and "open source biotechnology" are catchy
phrases, but they have little if any content for the moment. As
various non-profits get up and running (e.g., CAMBIA and the BioBrick
Foundation), some of the vagaries will be defined, and at least we
will have some structure to talk about and test in the real world.
When there is a real license a la the GPL, or the Lesser License, and
when it is finally tested in court we will have some sense of how this
will all work out.

I am by no means saying work should stop on OSB, or on figuring out
the licenses, just that I don't understand how it fits into helping
innovation at the moment. A great deal of the innovation we need to
see will not come from academia or existing corporations, but from
people noodling around in their garages or in start-ups yet to be
founded. These are the customers for Biobricks, these are the people
who want the ability to build biological systems without needing an
NIH grant."
"""

Of course, the Biobrick Foundation, iGEM, OpenWetWare, diybio and
other related initiatives have been seeing great growth since Rob
wrote that, so things are changing. :-) And for the agricultural side
of things, check this out:

"Researchers in Australia have devised a method of creating
genetically modified crops that does not infringe on patents held by
big biotechnology companies. The technique will be made available free
to others to use and improve, as long as any improvements are also
available free."
(http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/sub/views/story/0,4574,144880,00.html)

Open Source Biotechnology, from The Economist
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2724420
"""
open-source approaches have emerged in biotechnology already. The
international effort to sequence the human genome, for instance,
resembled an open-source initiative. It placed all the resulting data
into the public domain rather than allow any participant to patent any
of the results. Open source is also flourishing in bioinformatics, the
field in which biology meets information technology. This involves
performing biological research using supercomputers rather than
test-tubes. Within the bioinformatics community, software code and
databases are often swapped on "you share, I share" terms, for the
greater good of all. Evidently the open-source approach works in
biological-research tools and pre-competitive platform technologies.
The question now is whether it will work further downstream, closer to
the patient, where the development costs are greater and the potential
benefits more direct. Open-source research could indeed, it seems,
open up two areas in particular. The first is that of non-patentable
compounds and drugs whose patents have expired. These receive very
little attention from researchers, because there would be no way to
protect (and so profit from) any discovery that was made about their
effectiveness. To give an oft-quoted example, if aspirin cured cancer,
no company would bother to do the trials to prove it, or go through
the rigmarole of regulatory approval, since it could not patent the
discovery. (In fact, it might be possible to apply for a process
patent that covers a new method of treatment, but the broader point
still stands.) Lots of potentially useful drugs could be sitting under
researchers' noses.

The second area where open source might be able to help would be in
developing treatments for diseases that afflict small numbers of
people, such as Parkinson's disease, or are found mainly in poor
countries, such as malaria. In such cases, there simply is not a large
enough market of paying customers to justify the enormous expense of
developing a new drug. America's Orphan Drug Act, which provides
financial incentives to develop drugs for small numbers of patients,
is one approach. But there is still plenty of room for
improvement?which is where the open-source approach might have a
valuable role to play.
"""

Open Bioinformatics Foundation
http://www.open-bio.org/
"""
The Open Bioinformatics Foundation is a non profit, volunteer run
organization focused on supporting open source programming in
bioinformatics. The foundation grew out of the volunteer projects
BioPerl, BioJava and BioPython and was formally incorporated in order
to handle our modest requirements of hardware ownership, domain name
management and funding for conferences and workshops.The Foundation
does not participate directly in the development or structure of the
open source work, but as the members of the foundation are drawn from
the member projects, there is clear commonality of direction and
purpose. Occasionally the O|B|F directors may make announcements about
our direction or purpose (a recent one was on the licensing of
academic software) when the board feels there is a need to clarify
matters, but in general we prefer to remain simply the administrative
support organization for our member projects.

Our main activities are:
Underwriting and supporting the BOSC conferences
Organizing and supporting developer-centric "hackathon" events
Managing our servers, colocation facilities, bank account & other assets
"""

Next up on the list is about open source biology, a big topic that we
last talked about at BioBarCamp 2008:

http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Biology
which contains a bit of a story of Drew and Rob's involvement from
which I'm excerpting:

"Since we ourselves depend on the information encoded in genetic
material," Endy explains, "we should work together to share genetic
information."

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2005-03-30/news/steal-this-genome/
"""
They also made a plea on behalf of public safety; there's no way any
federal law can ensure that someone doesn't create an organism that,
as Brent puts it, "liquefies Cincinnati." Rather than trying to keep
secret, for example, the genome of a potential bioterror agent, the
institute crew concluded that it's better to empower as many people as
possible to develop countermeasures such as new drugs and vaccines.
"Consider that the only effective counterterrorism measures on
September 11, 2001 were made by the passengers of Flight 93," Brent
says.

Carlson, Endy, and Brent all agree that the best way to keep tabs on
the potential dangers brewing in labs was to share information. "The
only way the shit doesn't hit the fan is if everybody engineering
biology does so in the open," Endy says. "We're co-opting the idea
from open-source software that 'many eyes lead to few bugs.' In other
words, I don't trust you not to make any mistakes the next time you
program a piece of DNA. You shouldn't trust me."
"""

Rob still contrasting on parallels (or lack thereof) between
biological freedom and software freedom:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010412011122/http://www.intentionalbiology.org/osb.html

"What does 'ownership' mean when property is infinitely reduplicable,
highly malleable, and the surrounding culture has neither coercive
power relationships nor material scarcity economics?" -Eric S Raymond,
Homesteading the Noosphere.

"""
The biohacker community will emerge as DNA manipulation technology
decreases in cost and when the overall technological infrastructure
enables instruments to be assembled in the garage. The Molecular
Sciences Institute has a parallel DNA synthesizer that can synthesize
sufficient DNA to build a human pathogenic virus from scratch in about
a week. Assembled, this machine cost ~$100,000 about 18 months ago. We
estimate the parts could be purchased for ~$10,000 today. A working
DNA synthesizer could be built with relative ease. Synthesizers of
this sort produce ~50 mers, and it is likely that methods to assemble
these short oligos into chromosomes will be perfected relaltively
soon. Hobbyists often spent similar sums on cars, motocycles,
computers, and aquariums. <snip>

It is not that we expect (or desire) open-source biology to share the
various shades of anti-commercial bent which exist in the software
community, but rather that the future of a likely distributed
biological research effort implies significant changes in the way we
view commercial efforts. Rather than send samples through the mail,
sequences will be transferred electronically between researchers and
directly into DNA synthesizers. Biological manufacturing will be
everywhere, making irrelevant standard notions of centralized
production, and the real economy will be of design and infrastructure.
(v.01, Rob Carlson Copyright 2000, 12/10/2000) <snip>

One aspect of hacker culture that is highly relevant to Open-Source
Biology is the general disapproval of "hoarding." The concentration
and segregation of technology and standards by particular actors
(companies, in this instance) is viewed as simply greedy and as
retarding the development and acceptance of improved technology.

The explicit goal of companies is, of course, to make money. However,
when it comes to a technology that can directly influence the
organisms that humans rely on for food and shelter there should be
great concern in the concentration of power by any given organization.
Moreover, the intervening period between when we can genetically alter
organisms and the time when we know what we are doing and can fix
mistakes (that time period is right now) should be made as short as
possible. We should move with all haste to ensure that biological
technology moves as rapidly as possible and is disseminated as widely
as possible.

In Homesteading the Noosphere, Eric Raymond makes the interesting
point that the cracker culture maintains itself in a very different
fashion than the hacker culture, and develops differently as a result.
In the cracker culture, process and programming knowledge is closely
guarded, and Raymond suggests that this impedes the growth of
knowledge. In contrast, "in the hacker community, one's work is one's
statement. The best craftsmanship wins. Thus, the hacker culture's
knowledge base increases rapidly." In other words, the cracker culture
condones a form of 'hoarding' and knowledge disperses slowly as a
result. It is clear that the hacker community is a far better model
for those interested in moving biology forward as quickly as possible.
(v.01, Rob Carlson Copyright 2000, 12/10/2000)
"""

Open Source Drug Discovery program (officially mandated by the govt.
of India, ~$34 million USD)
http://osdd.org/
http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_Drug_Discovery

There's enough news links from the osdd.org front page to get a feel
for their Tuberculosis-oriented program. OSDD is very recent and very
big news for the pharmaceutical sector, I've joined and been
contributing and there's been talk with the manufacturing guys about
how to implement some of the tech they've been thinking up.

http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Biology
http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/12/novartis-genes-diabetes-research-biz-cz_mh_0212novartis.html
"""
There was a time when drug giants tried to keep leads like that to
themselves in an attempt to gain an advantage over their competitors.
They paid lots of money for the privilege, too. In 1993,
GlaxoSmithKline tied up with Human Genome Sciences to develop drugs
based on genome data. Five years later, Bayer spent $465 million to
get access to the genetic library being assembled by Millennium
Pharmaceuticals. Neither collaboration has led to a marketed drug. But
another requirement of making the leap from genes to drugs is making
the research public--a step that will make it difficult for
researchers elsewhere to patent any of this raw genetic information.
Novartis isn't the only drug firm embracing this "give it away for
free" mentality. Pfizer has promised to make available for free a
swath of genetic information emerging from a three-year collaboration
with the National Institutes of Health."

Also: Open Source methods are increasingly being used as a mechanism
to organise drug discovery. Examples include the Medicines for Malaria
Venture (MMV), the Global Alliance for TB Drug Development (TB
Alliance) and the Institute of One World Health (IOWH).
"""

"""
Robb Carlson argues that since the cost of biological production is
going down, and the risks of unintentional spreading of pathogens is
going to increase, then only further openness can work as security
strategy, as has already been demonstrated in the fruitless attempts
to curtain P2P Filesharing.
"""

On security:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0614.html?
 (Kurzweil wrote "The Singularity is Near")
"""
The real threat from distributed biological technologies lies neither
in their development nor use, per se, but rather that biological
systems may be the subject of accidental or intentional modification
without the knowledge of those who might be harmed. Because this may
include significant human, animal, or plant populations, it behooves
us to maximize our knowledge about what sort of experimentation is
taking place around the world. Unfortunately (though understandably),
the first response to incidents such as the anthrax attacks in the
fall of 2001 is to attempt to improve public safety through means that
paradoxically often limit our capabilities to gather such information.

Some view as an immediate threat the proliferation of technologies
useful in manipulating biological systems: Passionate arguments are
being made that research should be slowed and that some research
should be avoided altogether. "Letting the genie out of the bottle" is
a ubiquitous concern, one that has been loudly voiced in other fields
over the years and is meant to set off alarm bells about biological
research.

A favorite rhetorical device in this discussion is the comparison of
nuclear technologies with biological technologies. Success in limiting
the development and spread of nuclear technologies is taken to mean
similar feats are possible with biological technologies. But this sort
of argument fails to consider the logistical, let alone ethical,
differences between embargoing raw fissionable materials used in
nuclear or radiological weapons and embargoing biological technology
or even biology itself.

Regulation of the development of nuclear weapons has been successful
only because access to raw fissionable materials has, fortunately,
been relatively easy to restrict. However, both the knowledge and
tools necessary to construct rudimentary weapons have for decades been
highly distributed. It is arguable that, with some effort,
construction of a rudimentary nuclear device is within the
capabilities of most physics and engineering college graduates who
have access to a basic machine shop. Building nuclear devices is thus
theoretically quite feasible but physically difficult, even for the
knowledgeable, because the raw materials are simply not available. Yet
the raw stuff of biology has always been readily at hand, and our
schools and industries are now equipping students with the skills to
manipulate biological systems through powerful and distributed
technology. Because skills are already widespread and will only become
more so, altering and reverse engineering biological systems will
become both easier and more common. Regulation can do little to alter
this trend.

If strict regulation held promise of real protection, it would be well
worth considering. But regulation is inherently leaky, and it is more
often a form of management than blanket prohibition. Certainly no
category of crime has ever been eliminated through legal prohibition.
In this light, we must ask how many infringements of potential
regulation of biological technologies we are willing to risk. Further,
will the threat of sanctions such as imprisonment ever be enough to
dissuade infringement? Given the potential damage wrought by misuses
of the technology, we may never be satisfied that such sanctions would
constitute a repayment of debt to society, the fundamental tenet of
our criminal justice system. The damages may always exceed any
punishment meted out to those deemed criminal. These considerations
come down to how we choose to balance the risks and consequences of
infringement against whatever safety may be found in regulation and
attempts at enforcement. More important than this tenuous safety,
however, is the potential danger of enforced ignorance. In the end, we
must decide not whether we are willing to risk damages caused by
biological technology, but whether limiting the general direction of
biological research in the coming years will enable us to deal with
the outcome of mischief or mistake. We must decide if we are willing
to take the risk of being unprepared.

There are currently calls to limit research in the United States on
the basic biology of many pathogens to preempt their use as
bioweapons,22 and the possession and transport of many pathogens was
legislated into criminality by the Patriot Act.23 The main difficulty
with this approach is not that it assumes the basic biology of
pathogens is static?which because of either natural variation or human
intervention it is not?but rather that it assumes we have already
catalogued all possible natural pathogens, that we already know how to
detect and defeat known and unknown pathogens, and that rogue elements
will not be able to learn how to manipulate pathogens and toxins on
their own. These assumptions are demonstrably false. Pathogens ranging
from HIV to M. tuberculosis to P. falciparum (which causes malaria)
have successfully evolved to escape formerly effective treatments. New
human pathogens are constantly emerging, which as in the case of SARS
might be identified quickly but require much longer to develop
treatments against. In the last century governments and independent
organizations alike have developed and used biological weapons.
Restricting our own research will merely leave us less prepared for
the inevitable emergence of new natural and artificial biological
threats. Moreover, it is naive to think we can successfully limit
access to existing pertinent information within our current economic
and political framework.

As is clear from recent efforts to limit peer-to-peer file sharing on
the Internet, in today's environment strict prohibition of information
flow can only be achieved by quarantine?unplugging wires and blocking
wireless transmission. Thwarted by the difficulty of such endeavors,
music conglomerates have resorted to flooding file servers with
corrupted files (camouflage),24 and requesting the legal authority to
engage in preemptive cracking of file trader's computers (sabotage).25

Neither strategy is likely to be a long term solution of controlling
information for the music industry, and similar efforts to regulate
biological technologies are bound to be more difficult still.
Attempting to maintain control of information and instrumentation will
be a futile task in light of the increasingly sophisticated biological
technologies blossoming around the world."
"""

Rob Carlson on what needs to be done for a secure open biology approach
"""
We should focus on three challenges:
1) We should resist the impulse to restrict research and the flow of
information. Ignorance will help no one in the event of an emergent
threat and, given the pace and proliferation of biological
technologies, the likelihood of threats will increase in coming years.
Among the greatest threats we face is that potentially detrimental
work will proceed while we sit on our hands. If we are not ourselves
pushing the boundaries of what is known about how pathogens work or
ways to manipulate them, we are by definition at a disadvantage. Put
simply, it will be much easier to keep track of what is in the wind if
we don't have our heads in the sand.

2) The best way to keep apprised of the activities of both amateurs
and professionals is to establish open networks of researchers,
perhaps modeled on the Open Source Software (OSS) movement, and
potentially sponsored by the government during their embryonic phases.
The Open Source development community thrives on constant
communication and plentiful free advice. This behavior is common
practice for professional biology hackers, and it is already evident
on the Web amongst amateur biology hackers.14 This represents an
opportunity to keep apprised of current research in a distributed
fashion. Anyone trying something new will require advice from peers
and may advertise at least some portion of the results of their work.
As is evident from the ready criticism leveled at miscreants in online
forums frequented by software developers (Slashdot, Kuro5hin, etc.),
people are not afraid to speak out when they feel the work of a
particular person or group is substandard or threatens the public
good. Thus our best potential defense against biological threats is to
create and maintain open networks of researchers at every level,
thereby magnifying the number of eyes and ears keeping track of what
is going on in the world.

3) Because human intelligence gathering is, alas, demonstrably
inadequate for the task at hand, we should develop technology that
enables pervasive environmental monitoring. The best way to detect
biological threats is using biology itself, in the form of genetically
modified organisms. Unlike the production and deployment of chemical
weapons or fissile materials, which can often be monitored with remote
sensing technologies such as aerial and satellite reconnaissance, the
initial indication of biological threats may be only a few cells or
molecules. This small quantity may already be a lethal dose and can be
very hard to detect using physical means. Alternatively, "surveillance
bugs" distributed in the environment could transduce small amounts of
cells or molecules into signals measurable by remote sensing. The
organisms might be modified to reproduce in the presence of certain
signals, to change their schooling or flocking behavior, or to alter
their physical appearance. Candidate "detector platforms" span the
range of bacteria, insects, plants, and animals. Transgenic
zebrafish34 and nematodes35 have already been produced for this
purpose, and there is some progress in producing a generalized system
for detecting arbitrary molecules using signal transduction pathways
in bacteria.

None of these recommended goals will be trivial to accomplish.
Considerable sums have already been spent over the last five decades
to understand biological systems at the molecular level, much of this
in the name of defeating infectious disease. While this effort has
produced considerable advances in diagnosing and treating disease, we
should now redouble our efforts. We have entered an era when the
ability to modify biological systems is becoming widespread in the
absence of an attendant ability to remediate potential mistakes or
mischief. Maintaining safety and security in this context will require
concerted effort, and an immediate, focused governmental R&D
investment would be a good start. Although "bug to drug in twenty four
hours" sounds much flashier than "bug to drug in six to eight weeks,"
the latter is the more realistic timeline to shoot for?even if it is a
decade or more away?and this goal may serve as an organizational focus
for an endeavor organized and sponsored by the government.
"""

Some related links:
http://del.icio.us/mbauwens/Open-Biology
http://www.bios.net/daisy/bios/15
http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,66545,00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,66289,00.html
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002893.html
http://opensource.mit.edu/papers/rai.pdf (Open and Collaborative
Biomedical Research: Theory and Evidence, Rai Arti.)
and then all of the wonderful open access journals :-) like
http://biomedcentral.com/home/ and PLoS Biology etc.

Then there's also the issue of genomics:

http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Genomics
http://genomics.org/ and the $0 Genomics Project, plus lots of other tools
http://polonator.org/
"""
To usher in the dawn of truly personalized medicine, and accurately
tease apart the confluence of factors determining human pathology, it
will be necessary (albeit not sufficient) that large numbers of
reliable, high-throughput second-generation sequencers be installed
and operated. We have identified the upfront and recurring cost of
second-generation sequencing as key factors inhibiting their rate of
adoption, and have assiduously sought to drive these as low as
possible. At the same time, throughput, accuracy, and reliability have
been the focus of relentless development efforts.

A key differentiator in our approach to second-generation sequencing
is our embrace of a flexible, open source development model. The
system's operating software is fully documented and freely available
for public download, as are the protocols and reagent sets. All
aspects of the system are fully programmable, with parameters and
sequences accessible and modifiable by its users to improve and extend
the instrument. In addition, all subsystems are highly modular and
easily upgraded and/or retrofitted; as a result, we fully anticipate
that the instrument will evolve and improve over time. We expect a
worldwide user community to develop and flourish, advancing both the
design and the operational specifics of the platform, from which all
users in turn will benefit.
"""

Implications on health reform:
http://www.designcouncil.info/mt/RED/health/
http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Health

http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Notebook_Science
http://drexel-coas-elearning.blogspot.com/2006/09/open-notebook-science.html
"""
To clear up confusion, I will use the term Open Notebook Science,
which has not yet suffered meme mutation. By this I mean that there is
a URL to a laboratory notebook (like this) that is freely available
and indexed on common search engines. It does not necessarily have to
look like a paper notebook but it is essential that all of the
information available to the researchers to make their conclusions is
equally available to the rest of the world. Basically, no insider
information.
"""
IIRC, openwetware.org includes some "open notebooks" on the wiki from
iGEM participants and other research teams.

Also, open access research has been hitting a high note recently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access
"""
Open access (OA) or open access publishing is the publication of
material in such a way that it is available to all potential users
without financial or other barriers. An open access publisher is a
publisher producing such material. Many types of material can be
published in this manner: scholarly journals, known specifically as
open access journals, magazines and newsletters, e-text or other
e-books (whether scholarly, literary, or recreational), music, fine
arts, or any product of intellectual activity. In this context,
non-open access distribution is called "toll access" or "subscription
access".
"""

Also in the news, NIH has been going open access:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/27/0219228
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/07/2318208
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/06/1225211&tid=134&tid=103
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/02/0158208

PLoS is a life-saver, and so are the many, many other open access
preprint archives available through the web. Everyone on this list is
probably familiar with pubmedcentral, or pubget.com, and in general
see these lists-
http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_bioinformatics_databases
http://web.archive.org/web/20020206160321/http://gwu.edu/~gprice/science.htm
http://www.freepint.com/gary/direct.htm
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=239163&cid=19595767
.. there are many, many databases that I have been unable to recall
and cite all at once, so if anyone ever needs to find a paper or look
up some piece of information, there's more open access and free
databases than I can recall, and the proprietary stuff is also
available to almost anybody with a community college library
subscription or otherwise a university enrollment/faculty status.

http://p2pfoundation.net/Openness_in_Science
http://blog.openwetware.org/scienceintheopen/2008/09/30/a-personal-view-of-open-science-part-i/
""" (summarizing)
1. Science is traditionally an open endeavour
2. The internet/web potentially increases the openness
3. This potential is under-used
4. An advocacy movement is needed
"""

So, now for some licensing stuff. For the run down on GNU, the free
software movement, open source licenses, then there's an excellent
video that has been produced called "Revolution OS" and it's available
on Google Video:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=revolution+os&emb=0#
(w/ Richard Stallman (RMS), Eric S Raymond (ESR), Linus Torvalds,
Bruce Perens, ...)

http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Licenses

http://creativecommons.org/
http://sciencecommons.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_Commons

"Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved."
We're a nonprofit organization. Everything we do ? including the
software we create ? is free."

"Science Commons designs strategies and tools for faster, more
efficient web-enabled scientific research. We identify unnecessary
barriers to research, craft policy guidelines and legal agreements to
lower those barriers, and develop technology to make research, data
and materials easier to find and use. Our goal is to speed the
translation of data into discovery ? unlocking the value of research
so more people can benefit from the work scientists are doing."

Quick video on Science Commons:
http://sciencecommons.org/about/science-commons-dylan-video/
And again the "Revolution OS" video:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=revolution+os&emb=0#
And there are many more of interest on http://ted.com/ (and its little
(free) brother: http://bilconference.com/ )

And then there's the open manufacturing group that has been exploring
some of these issues, like biotech, but also in terms of machine
shops, kinematic self-replicating machines, advanced automation, etc.,
in terms of open source hardware and shared design initiatives:
http://openmanufacturing.net/
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking for a list of many open
hardware projects. A quick glance shows that there are vehicles,
microprocessors, DNA synthesizers, most of everything from the Maker
community, instructables, etc.

Open Design Foundation
http://www.opendesign.org/
"The mission of the Open Design Foundation is to promote an
alternative method for designing and developing technology, based on
the free exchange of comprehensive design information. The Open Design
Foundation provides the collaborative space to foster open source
physical design, and seeks to strike a balance between the
independence of individual designers and the collective power of
collaboration. The Open Design Foundation hopes that this method will
enable and promote design projects, which are motivated by personal
conviction and passion of designers for the greater benefit of a
global society."

Debian Social Contract
http://www.debian.org/social_contract
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Social_Contract

Ubuntu Code of Conduct
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

"""
Ubuntu is an African concept of 'humanity towards others'. It is 'the
belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity'. The
same ideas are central to the way the Ubuntu community collaborates.
Members of the Ubuntu community need to work together effectively, and
this code of conduct lays down the "ground rules" for our cooperation.

We chose the name Ubuntu for our distribution because we think it
captures perfectly the spirit of the sharing and cooperation that is
at the heart of the open source movement. In the Free Software world,
we collaborate freely on a volunteer basis to build software for
everyone's benefit. We improve on the work of others, which we have
been given freely, and then share our improvements on the same basis.

That collaboration depends on good relationships between developers.
To this end, we've agreed on the following code of conduct to help
define the ways that we think collaboration and cooperation should
work.

If you wish to sign the code of conduct, you can sign the canonical copy online.
"""

Open Source Definition
http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php

Summarized, the "open source definition" is generally:
"""
1. Free Redistribution
2. Source Code [how it's done]
3. Derived Works
4. Integrity of The Author's Source Code
5. No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups
6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor
7. Distribution of License
8. License Must Not Be Specific to a Product
9. License Must Not Restrict Other Software
10. License Must Be Technology-Neutral
"""

Another good book to read on these subjects is Two Bits:
http://twobits.net/about/
"In Two Bits, Christopher M. Kelty investigates the history and
cultural significance of Free Software, revealing the people and
practices that have transformed not only software, but also music,
film, science, and education."
and: "Free Software is a set of practices devoted to the collaborative
creation of software source code that is made openly and freely
available through an unconventional use of copyright law. Kelty shows
how these specific practices have reoriented the relations of power
around the creation, dissemination, and authorization of all kinds of
knowledge after the arrival of the Internet. Two Bits also makes an
important contribution to discussions of public spheres and social
imaginaries by demonstrating how Free Software is a "recursive public"
public organized around the ability to build, modify, and maintain the
very infrastructure that gives it life in the first place."

Alright, that feels like enough for at least one book to elaborate on,
so is probably a good stopping point. And to think that I haven't
included any sources explaining the importance of debian ("$10 billion
worth of work" - for free - over 20,000 free software packages,
apt-get, repositories, etc.), or works like Andreas Lloyd's
anthropological exploration into the ubuntu user community.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 02:29:00 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:29:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
In-Reply-To: <AC568AD517A045B6A36F5A650224322A@GinaSony>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony>
	<3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony>
	<392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z>
	<6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony>
	<4957D363.4060308@comcast.net>
	<B00E3D451AC847648938577A9F5CA99F@GinaSony>
	<AC568AD517A045B6A36F5A650224322A@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812291829k669e649dm91b3b7381eeb7394@mail.gmail.com>

Gina,

I voted for you and asked my brother and a few others to follow my example.
Good luck with the contest and I hope in the end the person who *should have
won* does win.

Best wishes,

John
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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Tue Dec 30 02:33:32 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:33:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812291829k669e649dm91b3b7381eeb7394@mail.gmail.com>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony><3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony><392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z><6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony><4957D363.4060308@comcast.net><B00E3D451AC847648938577A9F5CA99F@GinaSony><AC568AD517A045B6A36F5A650224322A@GinaSony>
	<2d6187670812291829k669e649dm91b3b7381eeb7394@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D85DDC232D1E4676902AEC0004F4CDFD@GinaSony>

Aw gee thanks John, that is very kind of you. But you always are kind. We've still got a couple hours left to vote!


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Grigg 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 6:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [ExI] Please help Nanogirl!


  Gina,

  I voted for you and asked my brother and a few others to follow my example.  Good luck with the contest and I hope in the end the person who *should have won* does win.

  Best wishes,

  John

    





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 30 02:26:48 2008
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:26:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <d1988d2d0812291804s74cc7e14n5ff104e50b759260@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net><9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com><d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com><9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812291804s74cc7e14n5ff104e50b759260@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0178889E382A4866831E992DE5CC21CC@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Keith Henson
> ...You are proposing that some non state 
> actor can launch enough mass to be a problem?
>

It has been repeatedly demonstrated that lifting stuff to orbit is waaay
more difficult than it appears to be.  Never mind all the super tricky
station placing that satellites require, just the control systems
engineering required to keep a rocket flying pointy end first is a daunting
engineering problem.  It would surely require the cooperation of an actual
government in the next twenty to fifty years.   

A secret launch is now completely impossible.  If a malicious group launched
a counter-orbiting truckload of sand, that act is a declaration of war
against every nation that has anything in LEO, which is a lotta smart,
capable and mean countries, all of which have nukes and the means to deliver
them to one's house if provoked.

Attacking anything in GEO would be exceedingly and reassuringly difficult
for a terrorist group, even a well funded one.

spike



 




From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Tue Dec 30 03:44:28 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:44:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Obama Transition Team Examining Space Solar Power
In-Reply-To: <0178889E382A4866831E992DE5CC21CC@spike>
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net>
	<9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812281610u423ef3d4i4dc32a95234dd78c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550812282052va13bc55nfa0b3dd1b69b811@mail.gmail.com>
	<d1988d2d0812291804s74cc7e14n5ff104e50b759260@mail.gmail.com>
	<0178889E382A4866831E992DE5CC21CC@spike>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812291944q51171c8csc3dd7fc5bab1c0a7@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> It has been repeatedly demonstrated that lifting stuff to orbit is waaay
> more difficult than it appears to be.  Never mind all the super tricky
> station placing that satellites require, just the control systems
> engineering required to keep a rocket flying pointy end first is a daunting
> engineering problem.  It would surely require the cooperation of an actual
> government in the next twenty to fifty years.
>
> A secret launch is now completely impossible.  If a malicious group
> launched
> a counter-orbiting truckload of sand, that act is a declaration of war
> against every nation that has anything in LEO, which is a lotta smart,
> capable and mean countries, all of which have nukes and the means to
> deliver
> them to one's house if provoked.
>
> Attacking anything in GEO would be exceedingly and reassuringly difficult
> for a terrorist group, even a well funded one.
>
> spike
>

Is it possible to construct a laser or other beam weapon that can/could
disable a SPS (or other artificial satellite) in orbit?  If that's ruled
out, then I'm not worried.

But, if anything, a supremely vast supply of energy would *ease*
international tensions, not create them, at least in the long term.  Ideally
the current space powers would share their capabilities to assist in
launching SPS's for other countries; but realistically, if they don't, there
could be serious problems.  I just think it would be in everyone's interest
to share.

Kevin
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Dec 30 04:18:06 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:18:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Zotero: The Next-Generation Research Tool
Message-ID: <4959A0FE.5060607@mac.com>

If you do any kind of research, writing with citations or just want a 
convenient knowledge management tool check this out.  Be sure to view 
the video on the page to see what this can do.

http://www.zotero.org/


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 30 05:06:59 2008
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 00:06:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fusion (was Obama Transition Team Examining Space
	SolarPower)
References: <mailman.123.1230343026.96.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><4956A61D.4000708@lineone.net><9ff585550812272107s5fa80dbek6fc13219d7588971@mail.gmail.com><1C47F20437BD4924AA5C5EFE1E8A80B1@MyComputer>
	<580930c20812290452o3e6ef16fo79010b71ad8ed974@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F81CBE6135594F79873613E8D9E01A65@MyComputer>

"Stefano Vaj" <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>

> My feasibility concerns have more to do with
> the growing "cultural"  and systemic inability
> of our societies to invest in long-term,
>  large-scale projects.

I have no problem with large scale projects, but as for long term I think 
it's pointless to worry about problems that won't become serious 
(if they ever really do) for a decade or more. The reason is that our 
power to accurately predict problems further ahead than 10 years is 
pretty poor and our ability to come up with solutions is even worse.
That's why I get impatient with the global warming hand wringers.

 John K Clark





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 30 21:29:51 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:29:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] a book of possible interest
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>

Did I ever mention this one?

Ferocious Minds: Polymathy and the new Enlightenment, by Damien 
Broderick (Trade paperback)

<https://wildsidebooks.3dcartstores.com/Ferocious-Minds-Polymathy-and-the-new-Enlightenment-by-Damien-Broderick-40TPB41_p_1221.html>

Here's what the publisher says about it:

Two centuries ago, the first Enlightenment failed when its dream of 
reason smashed into the passions and fury of stubborn humans. Without 
a deep, broad understanding of the world, the emerging Enlightenment 
was left floundering, its best impulses perverted into the bloody 
excess of the French Revolution. Arguably, its idealism and noble 
goals led directly, and shockingly, to the 20th century's 
totalitarian nightmares.

Now the 21st century is learning anew the Faustian hunger to know 
everything that can be known. But Enlightenment values of reason and 
tolerance, enriched by new knowledge, face a complex world no less 
eager to embrace medieval terrorism and ancient superstitions, a 
world bizarrely denying itself many of the fresh opportunities and 
insights availed by science. Can we find cures for poverty, 
unhappiness, ignorance, the ruination of the planet, aging, and 
perhaps for death itself? If so, should we? 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 02:33:03 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:33:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a book of possible interest
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>

Damien Broderick asked:
Did I ever mention this one?

Ferocious Minds: Polymathy and the new Enlightenment, by Damien Broderick
(Trade paperback)
>>>

I bought my copy several years ago from Amazon for just a few dollars
because apparently a previous owner had spilled coffee all over it.  But the
book was still readable!  I hope everyone here owns this slender tome
because it really is excellent.

I keep on hoping someday Damien will get a chance to host a major science
series akin to Cosmos.  If Sagan had sexiness and turtle neck sweaters than
Broderick has the Aussie accent & charm along with some cool hats (and I bet
Barbara would vouch for his sexiness!).

John

P.S.  Ironically, as I write this my roommate is watching a Harry Potter
film, which along with the books are the bane of Damien's existence!  ; )
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 31 02:49:03 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:49:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] a book of possible interest
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>

At 07:33 PM 12/30/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:

>I hope everyone here owns this slender tome because it really is excellent.

Why, thank you, John!

>as I write this my roommate is watching a Harry Potter film, which 
>along with the books are the bane of Damien's existence!  ; )

Not really, I watched the most recent Potter movies on TV and found 
them passably entertaining. I'm pretty sure I'd still be bored by the 
books. I even liked the flick about the Jesus Cat, the Witch and the 
Closet, and the first Pullman movie was bloody marvelous.

I've recently been watching Seasons 1, 2 and 3 of the post 2005 
DOCTOR WHO on Netflix (instant download, no fiddling about with DVDs 
in the mail), and they're surprisingly good, when the writers can 
drag themselves away from the sucking moronic vortex of backstory 
Daleks and clanking Cybermen. Some of the eps brought a tear to my 
lips and a sob to my hardened old eyes. What *is* deeply depressing 
is how anti-transhuman the usual ideology is: extended life (except 
for the doctor) is Evil, cyborging turns people into chanting idiots 
that wish only to kill and maim--what archaic Luddite bullshit is *that*?

Damien Broderick




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 03:33:24 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:33:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a book of possible interest
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote:
What *is* deeply depressing is how anti-transhuman the usual ideology is:
extended life (except for the doctor) is Evil, cyborging turns people into
chanting idiots that wish only to kill and maim--what archaic Luddite
bullshit is *that*?
>>>

I think the "extended life is evil" meme is simply the classic sour grapes
situation.  And people fear the possible dehumanizing effects of technology
so evil chanting cyborgs are an easy way to play off that fear.  Hey, maybe
you should go into television writing!  But then you probably don't do root
canals on yourself for fun, either.  I've heard some horror stories from
people who were tv writers and saw their work ravaged.

I wrote:
>I hope everyone here owns this slender tome because it really is excellent.

you replied:
>Why, thank you, John!

Hmmm...., I think my compliment came out as sort of an insult.  "It really
is excellent" sounds like I'm stating, "believe it or not, Damien really did
write something worth reading!"  I apologize for that.  I should have
written, "I hope everyone here owns this slender tome because it is
excellent."  And it is.

I'm curious what episodes of Dr. Who emotionally effected you?  I guess I've
gotten hardened since none of the eps I've seen so far have choked me up.
As for The Golden Compass, I tend to think they will pull their punches
regarding the big message of the series and thereby disappoint you in the
end.  But then you have critics saying the Christian overtones in the Narnia
books have been whitewashed to make the films readily digestible for a
global audience.

I wish somehow we could have you as a guest on Coast to Coast with George
Noory to boost your book sales and status among the common folk.  I just
can't get over how they have so far not had you on.  And they have had some
noteworthy science writers visit the program.

John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 03:42:39 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:42:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a book of possible interest
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812301942r3e9fb9fncd907c87da96a49d@mail.gmail.com>

I meant to write *affected you.* lol  I was half watching the film "Happy
Feet" and was amazed at the quality of the CGI.  The lighting, color,
shadowing, water effects and general physics really impressed me.  The scene
with the orca's was fantastic.

John
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 04:38:19 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:38:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Scientific literature organizational tools
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812170617nd866393m5f23295297a882fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A131DD01-C6F1-4A28-84B3-B8AEA1C9CD94@mac.com>
	<55ad6af70812170617nd866393m5f23295297a882fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812302038r64abbe58x7523d19cff08d8d@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, here we go. Anyway, Zotero isn't too new, here's what I previously
wrote on the subject.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [wta-talk] Scientific literature organizational tools
To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List
<wta-talk at transhumanism.org>, kanzure at gmail.com


On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Sergio M.L. Tarrero wrote:
> This may be helpful to some of you who need to keep many scientific
> articles and materials well organized...
>
> http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/defeating-bedlam/?th&emc=th

I've also struggled a bit with scientific papers and my research habits:
http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/

Ultimately what needs to happen is the dismissal of the PDF format.
Instead of giving everybody PDFs, there needs to be a file much like a
zip or tar file with metadata in it, as well as the actual content,
and then anything else that might be relevant to the paper, such as
formatted BibTeX for the bibliographical information, contact
information, separated figures/images/photos, any sort of software
that they had to write for the research, etc.

There's very little reason to just cram everything into a PDF.

Also, PDFs suck as it is. I can hardly open 200 PDFs on my machines
without things getting slow and dangerous. Yes, as I increase system
RAM I can open more PDFs, but that's really a stupid idea. Instead of
just hoping that I have enough RAM and virtual memory configured, it
should use a caching system for my paper reading pleasures. Oh well.

The autoscholar software (above) was made to help fetch papers
automatically from Google Scholar. And if I ever get around to helping
people get past PDF and into that tar-like file format for papers,
then it will also be able to automatically extract the BibTeX
information :-) so that you can recursively read papers and their
citations. Another part of the autoscholar software package is an
automatic paper reading program. Sometime earlier this year I
downloaded 40 GB of papers from a publisher, and so I wanted to devote
an entire monitor to reading the papers. My reasoning was that it
would be something to look at, be mildly entertaining and hey, of some
educational value as well. So it just flips through papers at some
static rate (a page every 4 seconds - this is stupid, it should keep
track of eye gaze really).

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 31 04:57:11 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:57:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] recent Doctor Who
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230225029.022bc898@satx.rr.com>

At 08:33 PM 12/30/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:

>I'm curious what episodes of Dr. Who emotionally affected you?  I 
>guess I've gotten hardened since none of the eps I've seen so far 
>have choked me up.

I watched them in a deluge, so the details are hazy. Some affecting eps were

"The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances", "School Reunion," "The 
Girl in the Fireplace" especially, "Doomsday" (in between the 
infantile baddies), "Blink". Probably others, and most of the above 
only at moments, but hey, how many STAR TREK eps can one say even that of.

Damien Broderick





From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 06:21:45 2008
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:51:45 +1030
Subject: [ExI] recent Doctor Who
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230225029.022bc898@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230225029.022bc898@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0812302221q28c5e735o7a884b39148d8185@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/31 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
> At 08:33 PM 12/30/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:
>
>> I'm curious what episodes of Dr. Who emotionally affected you?  I guess
>> I've gotten hardened since none of the eps I've seen so far have choked me
>> up.
>
> I watched them in a deluge, so the details are hazy. Some affecting eps were
>
> "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances", "School Reunion," "The Girl in
> the Fireplace" especially, "Doomsday" (in between the infantile baddies),
> "Blink". Probably others, and most of the above only at moments, but hey,
> how many STAR TREK eps can one say even that of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(TNG_episode)

but yeah, the new Doctor Who, very cool. I actually like the retro
baddies, but that's just me.

There is a luddite feel to the themes; hamfisted anti immortality
crap, to be sure, except the doctor of course.

I often feel like the stories have been written by authors who don't
actually like sci-fi, and aren't writing sci-fi, kind of anti tech
people, and they've just been dressed in sci fi clothing at the last
moment.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com - my home
http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related
http://point7.wordpress.com - downshifting and ranting


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 06:40:21 2008
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:40:21 +1100
Subject: [ExI] recent Doctor Who
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812302221q28c5e735o7a884b39148d8185@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230225029.022bc898@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812302221q28c5e735o7a884b39148d8185@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30812302240v67409d78nb0cfce9efbfb9833@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/31 Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com>:

>> "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances", "School Reunion," "The Girl in
>> the Fireplace" especially, "Doomsday" (in between the infantile baddies),
>> "Blink". Probably others, and most of the above only at moments, but hey,
>> how many STAR TREK eps can one say even that of.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(TNG_episode)

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Time_(DS9_episode)



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 31 06:55:06 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 00:55:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] recent Doctor Who
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0812302221q28c5e735o7a884b39148d8185@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230225029.022bc898@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812302221q28c5e735o7a884b39148d8185@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081231005116.02350dc0@satx.rr.com>

At 04:51 PM 12/31/2008 +1030, Emlyn wrote:

> > how many STAR TREK eps can one say even that of.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(TNG_episode)

Fair enough. Yet somehow... I dunno, ST TNG is always too... 
polyurethane. I liked it best, I suppose, when it was taking the piss 
out of itself: the faux-western with the lovely closing shot where 
the Enterprise tips its hat and rides off into the red sunlight.

Damien Broderick




From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Dec 31 07:16:33 2008
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:16:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Scientific literature organizational tools
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812302038r64abbe58x7523d19cff08d8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A131DD01-C6F1-4A28-84B3-B8AEA1C9CD94@mac.com>
	<55ad6af70812170617nd866393m5f23295297a882fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<55ad6af70812302038r64abbe58x7523d19cff08d8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <495B1C51.7070801@mac.com>

Bryan Bishop wrote:
> Ah, here we go. Anyway, Zotero isn't too new, here's what I previously
> wrote on the subject.
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [wta-talk] Scientific literature organizational tools
> To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List
> <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>, kanzure at gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Sergio M.L. Tarrero wrote:
>> This may be helpful to some of you who need to keep many scientific
>> articles and materials well organized...
>>
>> http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/defeating-bedlam/?th&emc=th
> 
> I've also struggled a bit with scientific papers and my research habits:
> http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/
> 
> Ultimately what needs to happen is the dismissal of the PDF format.
> Instead of giving everybody PDFs, there needs to be a file much like a
> zip or tar file with metadata in it, as well as the actual content,
> and then anything else that might be relevant to the paper, such as
> formatted BibTeX for the bibliographical information, contact
> information, separated figures/images/photos, any sort of software
> that they had to write for the research, etc.

I am not so sure.  PDF is based around postscript which is a pretty full 
  programming language.  Any metadata you can think of could be directly 
within a non-displayable section of the PDF file.


The other stuff needs arbitrary relationships between files and whatever 
notes and such you may want to relate or "tack on" later.  But the 
latter is not a zip.

> 
> There's very little reason to just cram everything into a PDF.
>


> Also, PDFs suck as it is. I can hardly open 200 PDFs on my machines
> without things getting slow and dangerous.

Why would you have 200 pdfs open at once exactly?  You don't have the 
screen space.  And I thought I kept a clutter desktop. :-)

  Yes, as I increase system
> RAM I can open more PDFs, but that's really a stupid idea. Instead of
> just hoping that I have enough RAM and virtual memory configured, it
> should use a caching system for my paper reading pleasures. Oh well.
> 

Then maybe write one or have some that knows how write one.

> The autoscholar software (above) was made to help fetch papers
> automatically from Google Scholar. And if I ever get around to helping
> people get past PDF and into that tar-like file format for papers,
> then it will also be able to automatically extract the BibTeX
> information :-) so that you can recursively read papers and their
> citations. Another part of the autoscholar software package is an
> automatic paper reading program. Sometime earlier this year I
> downloaded 40 GB of papers from a publisher, and so I wanted to devote
> an entire monitor to reading the papers. My reasoning was that it
> would be something to look at, be mildly entertaining and hey, of some
> educational value as well. So it just flips through papers at some
> static rate (a page every 4 seconds - this is stupid, it should keep
> track of eye gaze really).
> 

With a mouse that has a wheel equivalent I find autoscroll works well 
for me.  A nudge to slow down or speed up periodically is easy enough. 
Of course I really want a reader that chops text into convenient width 
and length chunks for maximally fast reading.  Haven't got around to 
finding or writing such.  Any leads?

- samantha



From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 07:29:28 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:29:28 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Scientific literature organizational tools
In-Reply-To: <495B1C51.7070801@mac.com>
References: <A131DD01-C6F1-4A28-84B3-B8AEA1C9CD94@mac.com>
	<55ad6af70812170617nd866393m5f23295297a882fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<55ad6af70812302038r64abbe58x7523d19cff08d8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<495B1C51.7070801@mac.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812302329y7dee3f7ah468101dd297bfd17@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:16 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Why would you have 200 pdfs open at once exactly? You don't have the screen
> space.  And I thought I kept a clutter desktop. :-)

http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-06-07_polymerase.png
http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-07-10_wine_brainbow_fail.png
http://heybryan.org/shots/inspiration/Superkuh_Jan22_06_desk_112956055_53fe3cf020.jpg
http://heybryan.org/shots/inspiration/notstevebutjoe/IMG_0865.JPG
and http://heybryan.org/shots/ in general.

Some of us don't like having just two or three monitors. So at four or
eight workspaces per monitor, and going up to eight monitors, that's
64 separate screens for tracking various things going on.

Anyway, I browse at 300 to 400 tabs, read lots of papers, and kind of
do these things "all at once" in deep recursive habits that'll
probably end up killing me one of these days - "scruffy kid found dead
at keyboard, news at 11".

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 08:30:47 2008
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:30:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] recent Doctor Who
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081231005116.02350dc0@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230225029.022bc898@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812302221q28c5e735o7a884b39148d8185@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081231005116.02350dc0@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d6187670812310030w33d51519r1daf42f3dca85610@mail.gmail.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
Fair enough. Yet somehow... I dunno, ST TNG is always too... polyurethane. I
liked it best, I suppose, when it was taking the piss out of itself: the
faux-western with the lovely closing shot where the Enterprise tips its hat
and rides off into the red sunlight.
>>>

What do you think of these shows...

Babylon 5?  It showed war is hell, even out in space.  Harlan Ellison loved
it and the creator.

Lexx? So much insane fun (thank you Netflix).  The tragic love between Xev
and Kai touched me (especially with the way they showed it in the musical
episode).  And Kai's death at the end of the series choked me up.

Batman the animated series and Batman Beyond?  Excellent stories and
animation.  Forget about the movies (except for the latest one) and watch
these beginning to end.  The comics come to life.

Blake's 7?  I have never seen the show (only pics, production values were
very weak) but badly want to view it.  I've heard the plots were great.  The
time is right for a new Blake's 7 tv series.

Mission 1999?  I only have faint memories but the FX were cool for the
time.

Quantum Leap?  This series powerfully affected me time after time.  Great
television.

UFO?  I now ask the women I date to wear purple wigs and tight bodysuits
during roleplaying.   ; )
http://z.hubpages.com/u/270186_f520.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/abramsv/R7OpKaoD1WI/AAAAAAAAIVY/Z22cGpp-A_Y/11.jpg

X-Files?  I loved the characters and their quirky chemistry.  But the
"monster" eps were the best.  Why can't they make a "monster" feature film?
C'mon!

Firefly? Liked it but was not in love with it.  The movie was good.

Land of the Lost? This Saturday morning kid's show was my favorite program
as a young boy.  It totally captivated me with the dinosaurs, time travel,
ape people, dino-men, etc..  I can't wait for the upcoming film!

Stargate? A series that slowly grew on me due to a roommate that insisted I
watch it with him and endure his non-stop commentary.  I did care about
Teal'c' leading his people to freedom and what he went through to get it.

Alien Nation? Excellent science fiction with for me with very affecting
plots.

Journeyman? A great present day time travel series that was very emotionally
engaging but only lasted 13 episodes, so frustrating.  I miss it.

Starlost?  I always wanted to see this series that Harlan Ellison disowned.
I like the concept.

VR.5?  My mom is not into sf tv but she loved this series.

Jake 2.0? I heard it was a very good series but only saw one episode.

Futurama? I think of it as the best show around to give me an idea of what
it will be like to be reanimated from cryonic suspension.  Really.  : )  And
Fry's unrequited love for Leela is very touching.

John (not a tv series..., yet)
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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed Dec 31 09:23:55 2008
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:23:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Rosie the Roboteer
In-Reply-To: <D85DDC232D1E4676902AEC0004F4CDFD@GinaSony>
References: <91F8DC345E164B6884B8E03218029403@GinaSony><3AE2A6F2A30F4316938BD955C1B11568@GinaSony><392CE0D4EF654413A7C8A2F22D919BA9@patrick4ezsk6z><6AEA7FDAFFD346DCBE58D8A0DD44D769@GinaSony><4957D363.4060308@comcast.net><B00E3D451AC847648938577A9F5CA99F@GinaSony><AC568AD517A045B6A36F5A650224322A@GinaSony><2d6187670812291829k669e649dm91b3b7381eeb7394@mail.gmail.com>
	<D85DDC232D1E4676902AEC0004F4CDFD@GinaSony>
Message-ID: <C78A6A924D7744108F5E37247CBBA7E0@GinaSony>

You guys might like this new artwork I made today, called "Rosie the Roboteer":
http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/rosie.htm

P.S. the contest is over and I want to thank everyone who supported me with their votes. It means a lot to me. Contests might not be the way to try and get financial support for the movie! Well if you guys hear of, or need any artwork jobs, please don't hesitate to ask. Yours now and in the future, 

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 18:00:19 2008
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:00:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Scientific literature organizational tools
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812302329y7dee3f7ah468101dd297bfd17@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A131DD01-C6F1-4A28-84B3-B8AEA1C9CD94@mac.com>
	<55ad6af70812170617nd866393m5f23295297a882fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<55ad6af70812302038r64abbe58x7523d19cff08d8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<495B1C51.7070801@mac.com>
	<55ad6af70812302329y7dee3f7ah468101dd297bfd17@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c49b1db60812311000j59653080q6b51d1ae8fa41601@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Bryan, what are the chains for? :)
Kevin

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:16 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> > Why would you have 200 pdfs open at once exactly? You don't have the
> screen
> > space.  And I thought I kept a clutter desktop. :-)
>
> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-06-07_polymerase.png
> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-07-10_wine_brainbow_fail.png
>
> http://heybryan.org/shots/inspiration/Superkuh_Jan22_06_desk_112956055_53fe3cf020.jpg
> http://heybryan.org/shots/inspiration/notstevebutjoe/IMG_0865.JPG
> and http://heybryan.org/shots/ in general.
>
> Some of us don't like having just two or three monitors. So at four or
> eight workspaces per monitor, and going up to eight monitors, that's
> 64 separate screens for tracking various things going on.
>
> Anyway, I browse at 300 to 400 tabs, read lots of papers, and kind of
> do these things "all at once" in deep recursive habits that'll
> probably end up killing me one of these days - "scruffy kid found dead
> at keyboard, news at 11".
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 18:11:50 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:11:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Scientific literature organizational tools
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60812311000j59653080q6b51d1ae8fa41601@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A131DD01-C6F1-4A28-84B3-B8AEA1C9CD94@mac.com>
	<55ad6af70812170617nd866393m5f23295297a882fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<55ad6af70812302038r64abbe58x7523d19cff08d8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<495B1C51.7070801@mac.com>
	<55ad6af70812302329y7dee3f7ah468101dd297bfd17@mail.gmail.com>
	<c49b1db60812311000j59653080q6b51d1ae8fa41601@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812311011g70a27cc1y7515514560bc07f4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Bryan, what are the chains for? :)

Not my setup :-), alas. Just that of a good friend.

http://heybryan.org/shots/inspiration/notstevebutjoe/IMG_0872.JPG

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 31 19:31:03 2008
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:31:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] recent Doctor Who
In-Reply-To: <2d6187670812310030w33d51519r1daf42f3dca85610@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20081230152701.022e3be0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301833p13436bbbtd8069db2489b6fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230203939.022c3a30@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812301933v65b70ad8of064b441f33da917@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081230225029.022bc898@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0812302221q28c5e735o7a884b39148d8185@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20081231005116.02350dc0@satx.rr.com>
	<2d6187670812310030w33d51519r1daf42f3dca85610@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20081231131439.0232f5c0@satx.rr.com>

At 01:30 AM 12/31/2008 -0700, John Grigg wrote:

>What do you think of these shows...

Most of them, sorry, hopeless. A few are intentionally funny for a 
while but get old fast.

>Babylon 5?

Dreadfully clunky most of the time, with stilted dialogue and wooden 
delivery. Some nice visuals.

>Quantum Leap?

Mawkish and formulaic when not gratingly jocose, but had its moments.

>X-Files?

Compulsively viewable until it started to repeat itself, and destined 
never to get anywhere.

>Stargate?

Probably the best of the 1940s-50s pulp magazine/comic remixes. Some 
very impressive CGI, especially the Atlantis version.

>Journeyman? A great present day time travel series that was very 
>emotionally engaging but only lasted 13 episodes, so frustrating.

Yeah, too intelligent and elliptical for a mass audience of fat food 
slurpers. Bad luck.

>Futurama?

Seen three or four, seen 'em all. Enjoyable for a moment.

A series I thought had promise was Dark Skies, the UFO show set in 
the '50s? early '60s? drawing on the UFOlogy abduction mythos, with 
(scandalously!) Carl Sagan and maybe Donald Menzel as govt conspiracy 
characters on the inside of the Majestic 12 program or something. 
"History as we know it is a lie." With infesting alien brain-suckers 
stolen from Heinlein's marvellous early novel THE PUPPET MASTERS.

Damien Broderick



From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 22:53:22 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:53:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: DIYBio in New Scientist
In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70812311449l53b2c58fn1a24ab0834ec2060@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ccec89cd-3114-4d33-a20c-b4ec0bf017a0@r34g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>
	<55ad6af70812311449l53b2c58fn1a24ab0834ec2060@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812311453u1689ea25ia06dab5ad7e4b58d@mail.gmail.com>

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: DIYBio in New Scientist
To: diybio at googlegroups.com, kanzure at gmail.com

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Kay Aull <katherine.aull at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126881.400-genetic-manpulation-now-becoming-a-hobby.html?full=true&print=true

The goods:

"""
KATHERINE AULL's laboratory in Cambridge, Massachusetts, lacks a few
mod cons. "Down here I have a thermocycler I bought on eBay for 59
bucks," she says, pulling out a large, box-shaped device she uses to
copy short strands of DNA. "The rest is just home brew," she adds,
pointing to a centrifuge made out of a power drill and plastic food
container, and a styrofoam incubator warmed with a heating pad
normally used in terrariums.

In fact, Aull's lab is a closet less than 1 square metre in size in
the shared apartment she lives in. Yet amid the piles of clothes she
recently concocted vials of an entirely new genetically modified
organism.

Aull, who works as a synthetic biologist for a biotech company by day,
created her home lab after hearing about a contest on the science
fiction website io9.com for "mad scientists with homebrew closet labs,
grassroots geneticists, and garage genome hackers".

After two months of tinkering, she engineered a microbe that she says
is capable of performing simple logic operations, which could be the
forerunner to basic biological computers. "Biology is wet, squishy and
imprecise. It drives engineers insane," Aull says. "This would allow
us to take the noise out of biology."
One amateur biologist engineered a microbe she says is capable of
simple logic operations

Despite her success, Aull was edged out of first place in the
competition by Vijaykumar Meli, a graduate student at the National
Centre for Plant Genome Research in New Delhi, India, who designed
bacteria that could help rice plants process nitrogen more
efficiently, reducing fertiliser use.

The competition is part of a do-it-yourself movement that hopes to
spark a revolution in biotechnology. It is based on the emerging field
of synthetic biology, which uses genes and other cell components as
the building blocks for new organisms or devices. The movement is
trying to open up this field to anyone with a passion for tweaking DNA
in their spare time - from biologists to software engineers to people
who just like it as a hobby. The hope is that encouraging a wider mix
of people to take part could lead to advances that would not happen
otherwise, just as tinkering by the Homebrew Computer Club hackers of
the 1970s spawned the first personal computers.

"Biology is becoming less of a science and more of a technology," says
Mackenzie Cowell, co-founder of the group DIYbio, which aims to be an
"Institution for the Amateur", providing scientists with resources
akin to those found in academia or industry. "There will be more
opportunity for people who didn't spend up to seven years getting a
PhD in the field," he says.

Meredith Patterson, a software engineer in San Francisco, is one such
amateur. She is engineering fluorescent yoghurt by zapping bacteria
with a $40 ultrasonic jewellery cleaner she set up in her kitchen. The
sound waves create pores in the bacteria's cell walls which stay open
for long enough for Patterson to insert genes that code for green
fluorescent proteins she bought from a biological supply company.

You might say that making glow-in-the-dark yoghurt is an end in
itself, but Patterson has a serious goal in mind: to engineer bacteria
that light up in the presence of melamine, the industrial chemical
recently found in infant formula in China, which injured hundreds of
children and killed at least six. At present, the principal test for
the toxin is chromatography, an expensive laboratory procedure. "Here
is a problem that was difficult to solve by conventional means,"
Patterson says. "People should have an inexpensive and portable test
to make sure their food is safe, but no lab was working on this, so I
said let's do it ourselves."

Patterson took up DIY biology as a hobby after doing some
bioinformatics work for a biotech company. "Biology is an interesting
puzzle. I learned the informatics tools to solve those puzzles, now
I'm interested in taking that to the next level and producing novel
organisms to solve problems," she says.

It's not hard to get in on the act either. Patterson uses resources
such as openwetware.org for research, and found the best growth medium
for yoghurt bacteria in a 1950s edition of a dairy science journal.
"Knowing how to do research helps, but the barrier for entry is pretty
low," she says.

DIYbio, which so far has around 20 active participants, held its first
meeting in Cambridge, MA, in May 2008. Amateurs were invited to
extract DNA for analysis from apples, oatmeal and their own saliva,
and learned how to make gel boxes and dyes - essential tools for
genetic fingerprinting.

Is it a good idea, though, to encourage "freelance" researchers to
experiment with DNA, however well-intentioned they may be? Not
everyone thinks so. Inexperienced hackers could pose a significant
public health threat, warns Richard Ebright, a biochemist at Rutgers
University in Piscataway, New Jersey. "Without any oversight from an
institution, colleagues or peers, the probability that a cataclysmic
entity might be constructed by someone unaware of known cautions is
significant," he says.

The greatest potential danger, he says, is that someone might
intentionally synthesise or recreate deadly pathogens like the 1918
flu strain, which killed an estimated 40 million people worldwide.
"That is on the edge of being within the technical capabilities of
someone working outside the laboratory environment."

In response to such fears and in anticipation of calls for the group
to be shut down, DIYbio has begun policing itself. Cowell says there
is now "a self-imposed moratorium on 'wetwork'", or all synthetic
biology experiments, until researchers can show that what they are
doing is safe. For the moment, the group is focusing on DNA
fingerprinting projects, with the analysis carried out by commercial
labs, rather than manipulating genetic information themselves.

The first such project is BioWeatherMap, a plot of the different
microbes, or "bioweather", to be found on street crossing buttons.
Over the next few months DIYbio hopes to mobilise amateur scientists
in Boston, San Francisco, Seattle and other cities to send in swab
samples from their nearest street corner. A commercial lab will then
sequence the microbes they find and DIYbio will post the results
online with the help of mapping software such as Google Maps.

"I think this is a perfect opportunity for high-school biology classes
to get exposed to genomics, sequencing and microbiology," says DIYbio
co-founder Jason Bobe, who expects to find hundreds or even thousands
of different species living on each crosswalk button.

Ultimately, Cowell hopes to set up a public lab where group members
can safely conduct experiments of the kind Aull managed in her closet.
In this he has the surprising support of George Church, a synthetic
biology researcher at Harvard University who in 2004 published a paper
claiming that the consequences of synthetic DNA misuse could be more
severe than chemical and nuclear weapons. He now says: "The world has
an energy crisis and a healthcare crisis that synthetic biology can
help solve; we need to go out and do it and the more people working on
this, the better."

Church argues that licensing and monitoring would-be DIY biologists is
better than alienating them. "It's going to happen anyway; you can
make it go underground or you can try to shape it," he says.

Church has agreed to act as an adviser to DIYbio, which will give the
group greater academic oversight and could allow it to resume
experimental work with less fear of being shut down.

As for Aull, she is coming out of the closet with plans to help DIYbio
set up protocols for safe lab practices. She says she will donate her
thermocycler to the group if it is able to secure a public lab and
she's also planning to carry out further work on her microbe to
confirm it really is performing logic operations.

Based on her own experiences of DIY biology, including its
limitations, she says warnings of the dangers are overblown. "It's
like a baby that just rolled over for the first time and his aunt is
crying because she doesn't have anything to wear to his wedding."
"""

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 22:59:02 2008
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:59:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] DIYbio on the News Hour with Jim Lehrer (PBS)
Message-ID: <55ad6af70812311459g67ba2727s8bea505b2531b18a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I just uploaded this clip from last night's newscast-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IIWH6Hhcnc

It goes over do-it-yourself amateur genetic engineering, iGEM,
synthetic biology, etc.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/july-dec08/diybio_12-30.html

"""
RAY SUAREZ: Now, solving biological problems by engineering living
cells. NewsHour correspondent Tom Bearden has this Science Unit report
on the emerging field of synthetic biology.

TOM BEARDEN, NewsHour correspondent: More than 800 college kids from
all over the world celebrating the end of months of intense work
building biological machines. These were the final moments of the 2008
International Genetically Engineered Machine Competition, or IGEM, on
the campus of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge.

These young people spent their summer on their home campuses doing
something called synthetic biology, a new way to approach solving the
world's problems using living organisms. The annual IGEM jamboree
gives them the chance to show off all that work through a series of
presentations.

The team from Catholic University in Leuven, Belgium, invented Dr. Coli.

STUDENT: This is a self-regulating drug delivery system. It senses
inflammation factors on a certain place in the body of the patient,
and it reacts by producing the appropriate amount of drugs on that
place. When the patient isn't ill anymore, Dr. Coli will eliminate
himself out of the body.

TOM BEARDEN: The Duke team focused on building bacteria to attack
plastic waste in landfills to make it biodegradable.

Mississippi State worked on breaking down the tough cell walls of
woody plants so they can be converted into biofuel.

And Rice University invented "bio-beer." Their goal was to engineer a
yeast that would produce resveratrol during the brewing process.
Resveratrol is the substance found in red wine that's been shown to
greatly extend life in simple organisms.


					'A discovery science'
TOM BEARDEN: At times, a layman who wandered into a presentation might
have wondered what language they were speaking.


SPEAKER: This is the Tal gene, under the expression, under the
regulation by the ADH1 promoter.

TOM BEARDEN: And with teams from 21 countries here, there were
certainly a lot of languages other than English being spoken in the
hallways. But everybody seemed to understand the common language of
synthetic biology, even if jetlag occasionally took some people out of
the discussion.

Synthetic biology is something of a departure from traditional
biology. The basic concept is to build a biological machine, modify an
existing organism, using standard parts, much like an engineer might
design and build a computer using off-the-shelf microchips and circuit
boards.

Randy Rettberg is a professor at MIT and IGEM director.

RANDY RETTBERG, IGEM director, Massachusetts Institute of Technology:
Biology like you learned in high school is a discovery science. You're
trying to find how the world works and then do something interesting
based on that knowledge that you've achieve. Synthetic biology is more
of an engineering activity. It's really building new things that
didn't exist before.

TOM BEARDEN: Rettberg and others have established a parts bin, or a
library of biological parts at MIT. Some of it is housed in a freezer
in Rettberg's lab. They call these bits of DNA and other materials
"biobricks."

STUDENT: So we're dealing with bacteria, right, so we've got lots of
DNA floating around.


		'Students are the best teachers'
TOM BEARDEN: Like all of the teams that participated in IGEM this
year, the team from Brown University got its biobricks delivered by
mail in the form of a loose-leaf binder. The bricks were dried on
filter paper.


They punched out tiny circles of paper containing the parts they
thought would do the work they wanted them to accomplish, multiplied
them, and then implanted them inside bacteria. Professor Gary Wessel
is the team's faculty sponsor.

Do they come up with ideas that surprise you?

GARY WESSEL, faculty sponsor, Brown University IGEM Team: All the
time. Tom, this is I think one of the joys of the job. I am constantly
learning in this profession, and the students are the best teachers
oftentimes.

TOM BEARDEN: The idea the team came up with this year was to create a
cheap way of detecting the presence of toxic material in water,
something that could be enormously valuable in countries that can't
afford major laboratory facilities.

Harvard Professor Pamela Silver thinks synthetic biology has
incredible potential.

PAMELA SILVER, professor, Harvard Medical School: The green bottle has
photosynthetic bacteria in it. And our hope is to use these bacteria
-- they can harvest sunlight and live on sunlight -- and use them to
produce biofuels, for example, hydrogen or biodiesel.

I think there are people saying, "This is the future of technology in
biology." And so that makes it just as exciting. We're not all going
to go out and be professors and academics. Instead, can I go out and
save the world, for example? So there is this sense of, "I can change
the world."

TOM BEARDEN: Well, if you can make fuel out of sunlight, that would
change the world.

PAMELA SILVER: We're going to do it, man. This is -- you're going to
have this growing on your roof.


		Do-it-yourself mentality
TOM BEARDEN: Mac Cowell, one of the original organizers of IGEM, have
the honor of announcing the finalists culled from the day-long round
of presentations.


Cowell is something of an evangelist for synthetic biology. He wants
to democratize the field, essentially create a corps of amateur
bioengineers who could contribute without investing years of their
lives in graduate degrees. He points to people who build computers in
their garages as a model for what he has in mind.

To further that idea, Cowell and Jason Bobe co-founded an organization
called DIYbio, or Do-It-Yourself Biology. They held the group's first
organizational meeting in this pub earlier this year.

MACKENZIE COWELL, co-founder, DIYbio: We sent out this e-mail saying,
"Hey, community, we're really interested in do-it-yourself biology.
We're not sure what that means yet. Here are some ideas about what
that could mean. Let's get together and figure it out."

And so we e-mailed that out to very few mailing lists, just a couple.
And we met here at 7 o'clock like four months ago and -- five months
ago -- and some really cool people showed up, including some real
academics, like heavy hitters from Harvard and MIT. So it was cool to
see them in the room with, like, computer scientists, with, like, high
school students.

TOM BEARDEN: DIYbio had another meeting at MIT recently, where Cowell
and Bobe broached the idea of building public laboratories, where
enthusiasts could conduct experiments.

MACKENZIE COWELL: We sort of came up with the main idea. We should be
safe, open, responsible. We should...


		Concerns over regulation
TOM BEARDEN: Even though there are regulations that make it difficult
to procure certain types of biological material, some find opening the
field to amateurs worrisome.


Roger Brent, the director of the Molecular Sciences Institute at the
University of California at San Francisco, thinks some sort of
oversight is necessary for do-it-yourself biology.

ROGER BRENT, director, Molecular Sciences Institute: Reluctantly, no,
I don't trust them to regulate themselves. I don't see it as plausible
that a person, perhaps even a teenager, would be allowed to build and
release an animal virus that could be transmitted to human to human.

The kind of regulation I'm talking about can only happen at a national
level, and it only makes sense if it's done in concert with harmonized
regulations in other countries. This is exactly the model of driver's
licenses, pilot's licenses, radio operator's licenses.

TOM BEARDEN: Jason Bobe also thinks there should be safety rules, but
not necessarily government regulations.

JASON BOBE, co-founder, DIYbio: By having an organization who wants to
promote on the one hand innovation and education and learning, it's
also a great opportunity for us to help be innovators in regulatory
policy and safety, too.

TOM BEARDEN: Back at the IGEM awards ceremony, the Brown team's hard
work paid off with a major award.

PRESENTER: Our second area award for environment, best environment
application, was awarded to Brown University.

TOM BEARDEN: But when it came time to give the grand prize, a metallic
representation of a biobrick, pranksters had hidden it.

PRESENTER: The judges do not know where the brick is.

ATTENDEE: Under the table.

TOM BEARDEN: It was eventually given to the team from Slovenia for its
effort to create a synthetic vaccine against helicobacter pylori, a
bacteria that infects half the world with ulcers and other gastric
problems.

>From five teams in 2004, the competition grew to 84 this year.
Organizers expect it to be even bigger next year. So they're starting
a new research project: figuring out how to pay for moving up to a
major convention center.
"""

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507