[ExI] Vissudimagga re: "suffering exists but none who suffers"

Tue Mar 11 03:43:30 UTC 2008

Gary:
"I believe the author was as is typical in Buddhist and Hindu teachings 
speaking
about the illusion of ego or self.  When enlightenment is achieved the 
ego of
self is gone for a time and one perceives the world one's being as 
having merged
with all that is.  This altered state is accompanied by a state of 
euphoria and
great emotional and spiritual intensity."

My reply: Vissudimagga is written by Boddhagosa, a Theravada Buddhist 
scholar born centuries after the death of the historical Buddha. 
Buddhists' teaching differs from Hindu beliefs on soul, reincarnation 
and gods. In Buddhism, the mind is the sixth sense working in 
conjunction with the other five senses without dependence on a separate 
or permanent self, soul or god. In Buddhism without beliefs, Zen 
teaches a way to free the mind of thoughts/beliefs. Enlightenment is 
not a state of euphoria or great emotional intensity. It is plain 
awareness/consciousness, nothing profound.

Gary: "Although the state does not last long.  It is deeply 
transformational due to
it's intensity.  And obviously highly addictive given that followers 
will study
and devote years of their life in an attempt to attain this state if 
only for
brief periods."

My reply: Those who claim enlightenment, know not and those who are 
enlightened knows suffering exist temporarily. In Zen, no one is born 
and no one dies in correlation with the law of nature that energy 
cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed from solid to liquid 
to gas.

Gary: "I believe that this state of consciousness is the true goal of 
true mystics from
faiths and religions.  Of course the vast majority of any faith are 
followers
and although they may be awe of the true mystics are not usually able 
to attain
these states themselves.  A true teachers goal is to help disciples 
attain this
state."

My reply: Consciousness/awareness is not a belief as some so called 
mystics who believed in metaphysical forces without evidence. How can 
you prove you are conscious? How can the sense of self evolved from 
among the electrochemical interactions in the brain? Its the same 
process that evolved eons ago as proven by evolution and physics.

Gary: "The objective reality of such states can not be proven 
scientifically."  Indeed
alternate explanations such as the release of internal pleasure 
chemicals in the
brain is a tempting and somewhat plausible hypothesis but why does this 
state
serve to convince those who experience it that it is this altered state 
which is
reality and it is our normal everyday state that is the illusion?  And 
why does
this state inspire those who achieve it to start religions, form cults, 
and help
others to achieve that same state."

My reply: Altered state of consciousness as the name implies is a 
psychological response to stress. Gullible minds are a rich medium for 
memes/beliefs without a concrete evidence due to fear of the unknown. 
Religious cults are formed in the belief that there is safety in 
numbers, I guess.

Gary: "Such altruism may be viewed as a crucial ingredient for a hero.  
After all
Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mohammad, probably serve as role models and 
heroes for
more human beings on this planet than all others combined.  And I know 
this
sorely galls many folks here who blame religion for many of histories 
wars,
atrocities and probably rightly so."

I agree. There is a saying in Buddhism that " if you see the Buddha, 
kill him." Meaning don't cling to your illusions, beliefs and thoughts.

Gary: "But heroes lives serve as examples for the rest of us to live 
by.  Can we blame
a hero though for those who use their names and the stories of their 
lives to
control others and manipulate their teachings for their own gain?"

My reply: I don't blame thoughts or mistakes in thinking. We are all 
thoughts interconnected in a short time span.

Terry

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