[ExI] Preserving Western Institutions and Values We Share Here

[natasha at natasha.cc]

Lee and everyone, this is enough.

Please do not post any more on this topic until Spike deals with the  
issues at hand.  I trust this will be within 12 hours.

Thank you,

Natasha

Quoting Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>:

> BillK wrote (in our wandering threads, this time in
> "Evils of the West") about expulsion as a phenomenon:
>
>> On 4/15/09, Lee Corbin wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Right. The extreme actions being suggested by
>>> "some people" here, such as expulsions of
>>> dangerous minorities, would in effect "rise
>>> above principle". But, as was argued, sometimes
>>> in history that seems to be the right thing to
>>> do (e.g. what Lincoln had to do to win, what
>>> FDR was afraid of, how the Catholics saved
>>> France from Protestants in 1572, etc.).
>>
>> Your examples are, of course, examples of wartime ferocity.
>
> They were, but Europe exhibits many that were not.
> For example, the expulsions of the Moriscos by
> Spain (bad idea) was one, and expulsions of non-
> Catholics by France (good idea) was another.
>
> First I should explain those two cases I just
> mentioned, that might perplex the rapid reader.
>
> So many of the talented craftsman in southern Spain
> happened to be Moriscos (Moorish converts to Catholicism
> but who did not assimilate), that expelling them while
> Spain had so few people relative to France simply
> weakened Spain too much.
>
> (Interestingly, Spain at this time for some reason
> did share one problem with us: falling birth rates.)
>
> France on the other hand, made a good move to remain
> Catholic by expelling the Protestants (or killing
> them---what I should insist is a much more genuine
> atrocity), or (mainly) driving them out with
> persecution, *even though* they were among the
> most productive citizens. The analogy is as follows:
>
> Nation   France 1600s          France today (or other western
>                                        nation about to be
>                                        overwhelmed by Muslims)
>
>
> Value    Catholicism, the      Freedom of religion, press,
> System   the true religion     legal rights of all kinds
>          needing to be         not ever so far exhibited in
>          saved/defended        any Muslim dominated country
>
>> Your original discussion was about initiating a peacetime atrocity.
>
> Expulsions happen a lot, and don't need wars. Here was Mirco's list:
> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2009-April/048941.html
>
> I never heard of mere expulsions described as 'atrocities'.
> A good example of an atrocity is when they just kill or
> maim a lot of people.
>
> In each and every case what is most important is is,
>
>    *Does the action in the long run damage or help preserve
>    the treasured values at the center of attention?*
>
> The risks are usually very great for a modern Western
> nation *because* one of its values is that it preserves
> (or tries to) the legal rights of all citizens.
> Earlier societies didn't have to face this dilemma.
>
> If a new drug that happened to make people into
> extremely violent and reckless marauders who no
> longer were at all productive, but just killed
> other people, and it were spreading like wildfire,
> should a country violate its own laws to suppress
> the spread of this drug, even though it was only
> being spread peaceably? What principle guides
> your response?
>
>> You'll have to declare war on Muslims first, for your original
>> suggestion to be implemented and supported by the population.
>
> I can't think of any expulsions where that was a necessary
> prerequisite, though the French Huguenots were *so* rich
> and well-organized that, practically, they'd been at real
> war with the Catholics for a long time.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugenot#End_of_persecution_and_restoration_of_French_citizenship
>
> So I don't see why a war would have to be
> declared, although certainly many Muslims
> living in Europe would see just *talk* of
> an expulsion as an act of war, since they
> already see even political cartoons that way.
>
> A key difference between expelling Moriscos,
> Jews, and Huguenots on the one hand, and for
> modern European nations to expel Muslims on
> the other, is that the latter are not nearly
> so economically and culturally valuable.
> Quite the reverse.
>
> This also is related, of course, to what to
> do about birth rates. The recent Russian
> experience helps to convince me that financial
> incentives are effective. In fact, France fell
> behind Germany in population in the 19th century
> ---with extremely bad consequences for all three
> wars since between them---by a mistake in the
> Napoleonic Code that kept down population
> growth in France.
>
> Lee
>
> P.S. Thanks for being past merely expressing
> revulsion, horror, and disgust.
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