[ExI] are all cultures equivalent?.
painlord2k at libero.it
painlord2k at libero.it
Fri Apr 17 17:29:03 UTC 2009
Il 17/04/2009 15.02, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto:
> 2009/4/17 John K Clark<jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
>> "Stathis Papaioannou"<stathisp at gmail.com>
>>> I don't disagree that Islam is ridiculous
>> All religions are ridiculous but some are more ridiculous than
>>> it just isn't any more ridiculous or intrinsically evil than most
>>> other religions
>> I disagree. In the present day I think Islam causes more evil and
>> keeps more people backward than any other religion on the planet
>> even though it is not the largest. I don't see how else to explain
>> that even though they have a huge amount of natural resources all
>> the poorest countries in the world are Islamic.
> Not really. The poorest countries seem to be clustered in
> sub-Saharan Africa, which is more Christian than Muslim.
Sub-Sahara Africa is Christian by less than a century.
It went from around 2% of Christians in 1900 to roughly 30-40% now.
Islam is a bit lower now, in Sub-Sahara Africa, but it was much more
spread, for much more time than Christianity. But the big gain were
against animism. Many places are very mixed.
A century is a very short time span for changing without coercion the
traditions and the culture of the populations.
Then we have the problem of Africans being lower IQ than Arabs,
Europeans and East Asians and native Americans.
> I suspect you are mainly impressed by Europeans and Americans. What
> about Christian Africa, or South America, or India, or China?
South America is going well compared with the Middle East, Pakistan and
India and China have done well compared with the M.E.
Let's compare Pakistan and India?
>> I believe one reason is than more people take Islam seriously than
>> other religions. Really seriously! They believe it to such a
>> fanatical degree it would even put to shame the faith that dwellers
>> in the Bible Belt of the USA have for their particular brand of
>> mumbo jumbo.
> Unless they have the misfortune of being stuck in a theocracy many
> nominal Muslims behave just like many nominal Christians. They don't
> pray five times a day, drink alcohol, fornicate, and feel only mildly
> guilty about it.
The problems is not how they feel about themselves, but how other
Muslims feels about them. Islam work so anyone is policing any other.
Public deviation from the accepted norm is punished inside the family
(for fear of social ostracism of the entire family groups or clan) and
from outside the family.
Then it is debatable what do you define a theocracy.
Is Pakistan a theocracy?
Technically not, but you can be put to death for "defaming the Prophet"
with only a single witness. Usually the judges are threatened if the
don't find the accused guilty and the accused, if found innocent by a
court, it is anyway forced to flee to save his life and the lives of his
family. Often the accused is killed during detention and no one know who
This type of laws are near ubiquitous in near all the Muslim.
If it is not death, it is prison. And death will come from some
militants. No need for the government to kill anyone, if the killing is
done by someone else. it is enough to be inefficient in protecting the
Then we have the laws that prevent people from changing their religion
(from Islam to anything else) or that take away the right of people
> There are mostly secular states with a Muslim majority such as
> Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia and even Iraq before the US invaded
> (boosting the stock of the religious crazies). It doesn't have to all
> be like Saudi Arabia.
You are very uninformed.
First Iraq had much more strict laws supporting Islam than people
suppose. Saddam needed to appease the Sunni hard-liners and so he did.
Under Saddam prostitutes could be sentenced to dead.
Malaysia and Indonesia have freedom of religion?
I would say hardly so.
>> In April 2000, the state of Perlis passed a sharia law subjecting
>> Islamic "deviants" and apostates to 1 year of "rehabilitation"
>> (under the Constitution, religion, including sharia law, is a
>> state matter). Leaders of the opposition Islamic party, PAS, have
>> stated the penalty for apostasy — after the apostates are given a
>> period of time to repent and they do not repent — is death.
If these are the moderates Muslims in the moderate Malaysia, where
Muslims are the 50% of the population.... I understand the Chinese of
Singapore that seceded from Malaysia to continue to be the majority in
their country. And we could compare the outcome of Malaysia with the
outcome of Singapore after the independence; but I would be accused of
being to harsh in my judgements.
Then, Indonesia, the state with the largest Muslim population:
>> Never mind what the Constitution and the state ideology Pancasila
>> say -- that freedom of religion is guaranteed and that citizens are
>> protected to practice their faith. Today, those are mere ornamental
>> words. The reality on the ground is the state has started to
>> persecute people for their religious beliefs.
>> On Wednesday, a government panel decided that Ahmadiyah, a Muslim
>> sect that has its origins in India but now has followers worldwide,
>> including in Indonesia, is heretic and contravenes the tenets of
>> Islam. The Coordinating Board for Monitoring Mystical Beliefs --
>> comprising government prosecutors, police and officials of the
>> religious affairs and home ministries -- issued a recommendation
>> that Ahmadiyah, as a religious organization, be banned, along with
>> all its activities.
>> In June, 2007, three Sunday school teachers were released after
>> two years in jail. They had allowed some Muslim children to attend
>> a program with the full consent of their parents. According to a
>> report by Bishop Martinus Situmorang, 108 Christian churches have
>> been closed in Indonesia due to Islamic pressure from 2004 through
>> 2007. Asia News reports “Indonesian authorities have prevented the
>> parish priest of Christ’s Peace Church in South Duri (West Jakarta)
>> from celebrating mass.” According to Indonesia Matters, the
>> Ahmadiyya sect of Islam, a peaceful sect which believes there was a
>> prophet named “Mirza Ghulam Ahmad” after Mohammed, has agreed to
>> say they believe that Mohammed was the final prophet after all, in
>> order to avoid being banned. Why would a peaceful sect be banned in
>> a secular country? Also from Indonesia Matters, “Indonesia remains
>> on the ‘Watch List’ in the United States Commission on
>> International Religious Freedom report for 2006.”
I would question your sources, but you gave none to support your statements.
>>> it sounds like you just don't like Muslims, especially Arab
>> Do you find them loveable?
> Of the ones I've known, they show the same variations in character
> as anyone else. I haven't known any highly religious Arabs but I
> have known some Somalians so inclined, and in their simple certainty
> and sense of contentment they reminded me a lot of fundamentalist
Citing Neo talking to The Architect: "You didn't answer the question."
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