[ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress

Post Futurist p0stfuturist at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 30 02:38:53 UTC 2009

Vietnam? so many thousands of ex-'Nam soldiers are in pain; and who was it Repuglicans ran for potus less than a year ago? a gung ho 'Nam vet-- over 33 years after the war ended. The Vietnam war is NOT over. 
And we're also in another war. Thousands of casualties stateside.
Constructivism is no longer a threat in schools, now deconstructionists have much more latitude, not that their teaching can be termed 'morally relativistic'; technically there is no longer any morality, only situational ethics. Does cause exist for optimism? yes, for 12-16 students. Unfortunately, K-12 students are a captive audience, they can't turn to the 'private sector' for guidance because their families and peers are just as clueless.

From: Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>
Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 4:14 PM

"And leaving politics aside, the *real* stresses of
daily life for almost everyone have nothing at all
to do with those ancient wars or their after-effects."
Nothing at all??
BTW it wasn't a direct linkage-- needless (unless in public schools) to say, conditions are different 1500- 2000 years later. The post wasn't to even remotely suggest we'll be destroyed as the Roman Empire was; but when we get to the point that so many are celebrating Michael Jackson and Ted Kennedy as some sort of role models(!), that is quite a stretch. Is it absolutely unreasonable to infer we're devoid of at least conventional morality? Can we say we're just making the rules up as we go along? I don't know and it is disturbing you wizards almost certainly don't have a clue as to today's morality (or lack thereof) and what is to come. The tunes are being played by ear.
Schools were somewhat better during the '50s and '60s, and probably during the '40s as well. I can't stand to speak to youths today; the slop teechurs are pouring into their minds.
It's not at all encouraging that 100 years after 1909, government is still so corrupt. And now such as auto companies can join in for the fun. 
Correct, Lee, we're not nearly at war in labor disputes as was the case in 1909; no, instead over a $ trillion, plus hidden costs, we're-- are-- spent on an external war that will go on for so long who in their right mind wants to think about it? How much spent on law enforcers, courts, prisons, battered families, costly litigation? and all that jazz...
Different from 1909? yes. Better? maybe. I don't know, and it makes me nervous none of you know, either. It is a photo that hasn't been developed yet.
--- On Thu, 8/27/09, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 11:16 PM

In "Re: [ExI] Tools for improving health care in the USA, now"
Post Futurist wrote:

> Stress? sure, there is no civilization.

Come now, don't be silly.

> America is like ancient Rome.. wealthy, powerful, but no virtue. 

*No* virtue? Again, you exaggerate wildly. And it's
evident that you know very little about ancient Rome.
Whatever corruption, mal-distribution of power and
influence, disregard for individual rights that we
suffer in the modern world, multiply by 10 or 100
to get ancient Rome or Greece.

And as for brutality or intimidation by force, there
is utterly no comparison.

> Dysfunctional families. High crime.

As compared to what, when? Of course, it varies a lot
from neighborhood to neighborhood and city to city in
the West (or in America, as you write), and I'll have to
let others speak for their neighborhoods and cities.

Yes, there are more dysfunctional families in America
than in 1950. Most adults in the slums were married
back then, and relatively few children were born out
of wedlock. But "dysfunctional" in terms of intra-
family tension, alcoholism, and so forth, sadly the
situation has never been ideal.

And that's the eternal problem in the babblesphere
and among the chattering classes: invariably the
comparison is made to an ideal, rather than to anything
real (past or present).

> K-16 Schools that teach students not to think.

As compared to when?

Besides, to me it's not clear at all that you can "teach
someone to think". Yes, some constructivism in education
has been all to the good, but some of it is very bad.
I would guess that most schools and most home-schoolers
are not too far from a happy medium. (I am by no means
saying that things can't improve, nor suggesting that
anywhere near optimal learning and teaching strategies
geared to individuals have yet been found.)

> This country is still fighting not only Vietnam, but also the Civil War; and after 144 years.
> Stress. you betcha.

Okay, there are still echos of both those conflicts,
in both politics and daily life.

But compared to 1909, when the country was nearly at
war with itself (labor vs. business), politically the
country today is quite united.

And leaving politics aside, the *real* stresses of
daily life for almost everyone have nothing at all
to do with those ancient wars or their after-effects.


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