[ExI] Private and government R&D

[natasha at natasha.cc]

Have human values in the Western world and elsewhere ever been any  
different?  Have they always been based on someone screwing with  
someone else to get more or what they want?

We read history and make icons of our political and business leaders  
and then discover they the were greedy too, or disonest, or had a  
conflicting morality - preaching family values and doing the slave  
(Jefferson) or mistress (too many to name) in the meantime.

Natasha


Quoting Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com>:

> Some provocative statements to continue this interesting discussion.
>
> I don't see a real, basic difference between government and mafia.
>
> But I also don't see how a real, basic difference between free market
> and mafia can be sustained for a long time. Sooner or later the main
> players will agree to unfree the market to make more money.
>
> So if government = mafia and free market = mafia, then government =
> (or at least similar to) free market. And indeed I think this is the
> case. In the real world, in all our real economies, there is collusion
> between the government and some privileged players in the "free"
> market. They collaborate to stay in power and prevent outsiders from
> accessing power and wealth.
>
> Gloomy view, please tell me that I am wrong and why.
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Eschatoon Magic<eschatoon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Of course we should lower the level of coercion, and _reducing_
>> government power to control loans and the money supply is a good
>> start. But, _removing_? I am afraid it would quickly result in
>> agreements between all other powers (financial entities and organized
>> criminality) to enforce even more coercion and victimize the rest of
>> us.
>>
>> Come on, don't be naive. Put 1000 persons on an island, and 10-20
>> bullies will get organized, grab the power and keep it. You know that.
>> We don't live in a fairy tale.
>>
>> G.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Dan<dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Eschatoon Magic <eschatoon at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Of course in a really free market,
>>>> withdrawing a loan is not coercion.
>>>> But when the powers collaborate behind the scenes to
>>>> protect their
>>>> power, the market is not free.
>>>>
>>>> Our economy is more like the typical situation portrayed in
>>>> mafia
>>>> movies: greedy government officers AND organized crime
>>>> collaborate to
>>>> create and mantain a money machine for themselves.
>>>
>>> But the solution to this is what?  To increase the level of   
>>> coercion by also stealing from others to fund projects you or I   
>>> like?  Instead, shouldn't the solution be to lower the level of   
>>> coercion -- in this case, by removing government power to control   
>>> loans and the money supply?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dan
>> --
>> Eschatoon Magic
>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
>> aka Giulio Prisco
>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Eschatoon Magic
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon
> aka Giulio Prisco
> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco
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