From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 1 00:07:48 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:07:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sodomy north In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090531190536.024145a0@satx.rr.com> At 09:35 AM 6/1/2009 +1000, Stathis wrote: >James Moseley thought sodomy laws applied only to >homosexuals. Charged with sexually assaulting his estranged wife, >the Georgia carpenter testified at his trial that she willingly had >oral sex with him. The jury acquitted Moseley of rape, but found him >guilty of consensual sodomy. He was sentenced to five years in >prison and served 18 months before being freed in August 1989. "I >had no idea that I was incriminating myself," said Moseley, now 38. >Although sodomy prosecutions are rare, they do occur, against both >homosexuals and heterosexuals. In North Caroline, a heterosexual >man was sentenced to 10 years in prison and served two for having >oral sex with a woman in 1988. A Maryland man was sentenced to 18 >months' probation for heterosexual sodomy in 1986. And in 1988, a >female Marine corporal was imprisoned for six months at Quantico >Marine Corps Base for having oral sex with a woman." Well, that just sucks. (I always assumed sodomy referred to buggery [i.e. anal penetration]. But then the Law, as we know, is an ass.) Damien Broderick > From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 00:57:15 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 17:57:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] On the Street and On Facebook: The Homeless Stay Wired In-Reply-To: <389097.85154.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <389097.85154.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670905311757g49bb6c12w45492489078289e4@mail.gmail.com> Anna wrote: Well in my experience, when I was younger and we didn't have electricity (seems hard to believe in this day and age) because my mother was working three jobs to support 3 girls, the Internet/or computer didn't compare to needing food, clothing, bedding and/or shelter. I understand maybe for some it has become a need but I still consider it a luxury. I didn't mean to offend you John. >>> Dang. You have known some hard times and believe me, so have I. I view parents like your mom as heroic figures. : ) My mother was most of the time a single parent and we really struggled. I just felt you had oversimplified human nature with your statement, but I did not mean to seem to be lashing out. you continue: Considering I don't know either of you personally and the only persona you may have of me is one off the Internet, I won't take that comment to heart as I am person that it always striving to learn from others. >>> Anna, you are one of my favorite people on this list because it's plain that you have a big heart and that you are curious by nature. John : ) Anna:) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 01:04:21 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:34:21 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Wired: The New Socialism: Global Collectivist Society Is Coming Online In-Reply-To: <549407.11487.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <549407.11487.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0905311804s5d3bbca3q55c4b862e77c829@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/29 Dan : > > --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Emlyn wrote: >> The New Socialism: Global >> Collectivist Society Is Coming Online >> by Kevin Kelly >> http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-06/nep_newsocialism?currentPage=all >> > > Jesse Walker has some perceptive comments on this here: > > http://www.reason.com/blog/show/133728.html > > Regards, > > Dan I liked everything about the wired article except for the label "socialism". I don't think it's an accident that the author used that word, far from it, and I'm sympathetic to his reasoning. But Jesse Walker's response has some validity too, you could call it a form of capitalism, if you wanted to, and it is indeed nestled in capitalism, of necessity. I suspect that a branch of economics could easily be formed to described the dynamics of this economy, which is really about what happens when prices on core things go to a practical zero. This stuff misses the point in a way though. It's important for us to try to interpret events through what we know, but equally we shouldn't miss the fact that there is something radically new happening, too. That's why we have a lot of trouble naming it, describing it, and in many cases even perceiving it. This is not the same as what has come before. Fun! -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jun 1 01:20:51 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 03:20:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <791670.45120.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A2148BC.4030509@libero.it> <4A228445.7040404@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A232CF3.4040903@libero.it> Il 31/05/2009 16.05, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/5/31 painlord2k at libero.it: > >>> It also happens >>> sometimes with financial market, which is what leads to bubbles. >> The buyers buy because they hope to sell higher. They don't buy at an higher >> price on purpose. In fact, to maximize their gains they will try to buy at >> the lower price available at the moment. The fact that sometimes they are >> wrong in their foresight don't invalidate the law of supply-demand. > > The buyer hopes to sell higher, but a certain type of trader sees an > increasing price as an indication of upward momentum which will make > him more profits, and a decreasing price as the opposite. Demand goes > up as the price goes up, pushing the price up even further. This is > the basis of "technical analysis". Ultimately, prices come to reflect > fundamental value, but the consequences when this process runs away > can be devastating for the economy, as we have seen. Your explanation don't invalidate the law of supply and demand. The buyer that interpret the increase of the price as an indication of future increases is speculation on the future, like all producers and all agents in a market. The fact that an agent can be wrong in its speculation about the future is independent from the law of S&D. All agents are bound to fail sometimes, someone more, someone less. Until they shoulder the burden of the failure and receive the fruits of their success, there is nothing wrong on this. The problem is when some government decide and the burden of the failure is upon the people that have no choice. The government will not stop its actions, because it don't feel the pain it is causing and probably it is profiting from the actions that damage the people. > The supply won't grow unless people are attracted to sell more, the > demand won't grow unless people want to buy more, and the > supply/demand relationship won't be what it is unless people try to > maximise the sell price and minimise the buy price. The economic law > arises from the relationship between available resources and the > expected behaviour of the market participants. The expected behaviour of the participants is to maximize their [psychic] gains. To do what they suppose will maximize their satisfaction inside their time horizon. > However the Earth moves, it must be as a result of the various > physical forces. Whatever the economy does, it must be as the result > of human behaviour within a particular environment. What's > controversial about that? The human behaviour is constrained by the law of logic. Whatever is the human behaviour, it can not defy the laws of logic and the basic law of nature. > Which implies a certain psychological state. If the psychological > state were different, the limits would be different. A different psychological state would change the order / schedule of needs and wills. But no psychological state will change the fact that human need water, food, shelter, and so on, to be able to survive, reproduce and so on. It don't change the fact that there are limits to the resources available for the exchange. My psychological state don't make me able to buy a home if I have not the money to do so. My psychological state don't le me build a house if I lack wood and concrete. My psychological state could change my aims, but only my rationality help me to obtain them. > Yes, but this is consistent with the point that the market would not > play out the same *regardless* of any change in the participants' > behaviour. This is banal and trivial. I don't contest this. But it is like to say that the law of ballistic change if I change my mind and shoot a chicken instead of a pig. The gun will work in the same way, whatever the psychological state of the gunner could be. What will not change is that the agents will try to maximize their gains in their time horizon. They can change their aims, they can be right or wrong in their speculation about the future, but when they start to sell and buy freely in a market, in any date time, the market will behave under the same basic rules: Who that pay more will be served first, who that pay less will be serve after if the price offered is higher than the lower reserve price of the sellers. The highest and the lowest prices will converge if the condition remain the same and more iterations happen and so on. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.46/2145 - Release Date: 05/31/09 05:53:00 From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 1 01:36:46 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:36:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <4A232CF3.4040903@libero.it> References: <791670.45120.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A2148BC.4030509@libero.it> <4A228445.7040404@libero.it> <4A232CF3.4040903@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090531203345.02315558@satx.rr.com> At 03:20 AM 6/1/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote: >My psychological state don't make me able to buy a home if I have >not the money to do so. Hahahahaha! I see you haven't been reading the papers in the last few years. (Granted, being able to buy a home without money requires an appropriate pathologically greedy psychological state in other people and their institutions as well. Welcome to the real world.) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 02:40:19 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:10:19 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Wired: The New Socialism: Global Collectivist Society IsComing Online In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090528091420.080ac7f0@satx.rr.com> References: <710b78fc0905272137y7df1eb05uec24bda0eeaa2008@mail.gmail.com> <21D6CC24CFC94D1D917CEEB512CECA4A@spike> <710b78fc0905280021l46979b33iae5ce5aaeccbe034@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090528091420.080ac7f0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0905311940h3d9bb5a1s994d3cb7071c276e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/28 Damien Broderick : > At 04:51 PM 5/28/2009 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > >> It looks to me like the leading slope of the singularity, one >> based on intelligence augmentation and borginization. The progression >> must be roughly, this communal improvement loop continues and >> accelerates, at some point we begin as individuals to augment for >> closer connection to the group (always on, less latency, higher >> bandwidth information processing abilities, entirely new social >> communication channels), this all continues in a giant feedback loop >> until what? > > This is pretty much how Vernor Vinge described the run-up to his singularity > (and vanishment of humans from Earth) in his 1986 novel MAROONED IN REAL > TIME: Another data point: On the Street and On Facebook: The Homeless Stay Wired http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124363359881267523.html SAN FRANCISCO -- Like most San Franciscans, Charles Pitts is wired. Mr. Pitts, who is 37 years old, has accounts on Facebook, MySpace and Twitter. He runs an Internet forum on Yahoo, reads news online and keeps in touch with friends via email. The tough part is managing this digital lifestyle from his residence under a highway bridge. "You don't need a TV. You don't need a radio. You don't even need a newspaper," says Mr. Pitts, an aspiring poet in a purple cap and yellow fleece jacket, who says he has been homeless for two years. "But you need the Internet." Mr. Pitts's experience shows how deeply computers and the Internet have permeated society. A few years ago, some people were worrying that a "digital divide" would separate technology haves and have-nots. The poorest lack the means to buy computers and Web access. Still, in America today, even people without street addresses feel compelled to have Internet addresses. New York City has put 42 computers in five of the nine shelters it operates and plans to wire the other four this year. Roughly half of another 190 shelters in the city offer computer access. The executive director of a San Francisco nonprofit group, Central City Hospitality House, estimates that half the visitors to its new eight-computer drop-in center are homeless; demand for computer time is so great that users are limited to 30 minutes. Shelter attendants say the number of laptop-toting overnight visitors, while small, is growing. SF Homeless, a two-year-old Internet forum, has 140 members. It posts schedules for public-housing meetings and news from similar groups in New Mexico, Arizona and Connecticut. And it has a blog with online polls about shelter life. Cheap computers and free Internet access fuel the phenomenon. So does an increasingly computer-savvy population. Many job and housing applications must be submitted online. Some homeless advocates say the economic downturn is pushing more of the wired middle class on to the streets. Aspiring computer programmer Paul Weston, 29, says his Macintosh PowerBook has been a "lifeboat" since he was laid off from his job as a hotel clerk in December and moved to a shelter. Sitting in a Whole Foods store with free wireless access, Mr. Weston searches for work and writes a computer program he hopes to sell eventually. He has emailed city officials to press for better shelter conditions. Lisa Stringer, who runs a program that teaches job and computer skills to homeless and low-income residents, says some students who can't even read or write save money to buy computers at Goodwill. "It's really a symbol in today's society of being OK and connected," she says. She sometimes urges homeless students to put off buying laptops until their living situations stabilize. Staying wired on the streets takes determination. Electricity and Internet access can be hard to come by. Threats, including rain and theft, are a problem. Robert Livingston, 49, has carried his Asus netbook everywhere since losing his apartment in December. A meticulous man who spends some of his $59 monthly welfare check on haircuts, Mr. Livingston says he quit a security-guard job late last year, then couldn't find another when the economy tanked. When he realized he would be homeless, Mr. Livingston bought a sturdy backpack to store his gear, a padlock for his footlocker at the shelter and a $25 annual premium Flickr account to display the digital photos he takes. One recent morning, Mr. Livingston sat in a cafe that sometimes lets customers tap its wireless connection, and shows off his personal home page, featuring links for Chinese-language lessons. Mr. Livingston says his computer helps him feel more connected and human. "It's frightening to be homeless," he says. "When I'm on here, I'm equal to everybody else." For Skip Schreiber, 64, an amateur philosopher with wispy white hair who lives in a van, power is the biggest challenge to staying wired. Mr. Schreiber tended heating and ventilation systems before work-related stress and depression sidelined him around 15 years ago, he says. For his 60th birthday, he dipped into his monthly disability check to buy a laptop, connected it to his car battery, and taught himself to use it. "I liked the concept of the Internet," says Mr. Schreiber, "this unlimited source of opinion and thought." Mr. Schreiber later switched to a Mac because it uses less juice. He keeps the fan and wireless antenna off when possible and cools the laptop by putting it on a damp washcloth. He says that by using such tricks, he can keep the laptop battery going for 16 hours, if he avoids videos. In the van, stacked with toolboxes, electric gear and bedding, Mr. Schreiber shows the contents of his laptop, including the complete California legal code and files on thinkers from Thomas Aquinas to the psychologist Philip Zimbardo. Mr. Schreiber says writings about human behavior and motivation help make sense of what has happened to him. "No one creates themselves as a homeless person," he says. "We make the choices we can with what we're offered." Michael Ross creates his own electricity, with a gas generator perched outside his yellow-and-blue tent. For a year, Mr. Ross has stood guard at a parking lot for construction equipment, under a deal with the owner. Mr. Ross figures he has been homeless for about 15 years, surviving on his Army pension. Inside the tent, the taciturn 50-year-old has an HP laptop with a 17-inch screen and 320 gigabytes of data storage, as well as four extra hard drives that can hold another 1,000 gigabytes, the equivalent of 200 DVDs. Mr. Ross loves movies. He rents some from Netflix and Blockbuster online and downloads others over an Ethernet connection at the San Francisco public library. One evening recently, Mr. Ross lay down on his sleeping bag and watched an X-Men cartoon on the laptop, listening through headphones over the roar of the generator. When he travels downtown, he takes all the gear with him for safekeeping. His backpack bulges with cords and bubble-wrapped electronic gadgets. Mr. Ross says he doesn't notice the weight. Mr. Pitts, the poet who lives under a bridge, keeps a mental list of spots to charge batteries and go online, including a deserted corner of a downtown train station and wired cafes whose owners don't mind long stays and lots of bags. When he was evicted from his apartment two years ago, Mr. Pitts says, "I thought: My existence and my life don't stop because I don't have a place to live." He bought a Toshiba laptop. When it died, he bought a used Dell. Last month, that one expired, too, with a cracked screen. Now he checks email and posts to his Internet forum on homeless issues, from computers at libraries, college campuses and a laptop stashed behind the counter of a coffee shop by a friend. Before the Dalai Lama visited a soup kitchen here a month ago, Mr. Pitts researched the Buddhist leader on Wikipedia and copied the text onto his iPod, to read in bed under the bridge. "I'm under my blanket, under a tarp, reading Dalai Lama this, Dalai Lama that," he says. Mr. Pitts expects to soon scrape up the money for another computer. He figures he can get one for less than $200. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From msd001 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 03:04:25 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 23:04:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New number system (was Re: our next billion dollars) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0905252004h27def00iea3224c0a7163830@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0905252004h27def00iea3224c0a7163830@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62c14240905312004v450fdd29s4e874950a3f4efb2@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 11:04 PM, Emlyn wrote: > So I'm gunning for standard use of Hexadecimal to replace Decimal. > Along with that, we need a new Hexadecimal Metric System, including > Hexadecimal Metric Time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal http://www.wonderquest.com/base-60.htm http://it.stlawu.edu/~dmelvill/mesomath/index.html I was going to suggest base60 as an innovation for its easy divisibility (by every number 2-6) but after looking it up I see it seems like base60 was apparently abandoned for "our" current base10 and be now use machines to do decimal calculations using base2 representation. The counting by finger joints reminded me of the scene in Princess Bride where Inigo tries to determine how many castle guards are left from the original 30 after the giant takes 10 - he (very visibly) counts down using finger joints. Interesting. From beth.ferree at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 01:46:14 2009 From: beth.ferree at gmail.com (Beth Ferree) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:46:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] On the Street and On Facebook: The Homeless Stay Wired In-Reply-To: <529D0776FCA24A62BCA3047E3830D1E7@spike> References: <511739.22910.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670905310035w68b93470o2e62e87ced9eabb@mail.gmail.com> <66e2c7af0905310050r514e063fo45e634076fd29ee4@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090531124558.02625fb8@satx.rr.com> <5fb90e670905311132u6b9afac0j7164bb4f93be5fc7@mail.gmail.com> <529D0776FCA24A62BCA3047E3830D1E7@spike> Message-ID: <5fb90e670905311846q3577471fy1b8edc8ffb782e91@mail.gmail.com> I agree about the funding. Because I have some severe physical disabilities, I'm very concerned about the future. Luckily, I managed to raise three children alone and all are now responsible, caring adults with plans to care for me, :). Assuming, that is, they each manage to get good jobs after they finish college. Carl Sandburg - "I'm an idealist. I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:28 PM, spike wrote: > On Behalf Of Beth Ferree > Subject: Re: [ExI] On the Street and On Facebook: The Homeless Stay > Wired > > > >Hi, I joined this group not long ago so this is my first post... > > > Hi Beth, welcome. > > > >This happens to be a subject with which I am intimately familiar... > > Cool, good, the best kind of post is this. > > > >Last year I was homeless on the streets of San Francisco > ....programs that are available to help have long waiting lists and funding > was scarce. With the new changes Schwartenegger wants to make to the budget > it will become more so soon... Beth > > > Ja agree it will soon, except for a minor rewording. Ahhhnold doesn't > *want* to make these changes, he is *forced* to make the changes, because > the state government is out of money. It really is. And there is no good > way to get more. Even those Americans who do not live in Taxifornia should > be watching closely, for as goes Sacramento goes Washington DC soon. > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Jun 1 04:30:53 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:30:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <86C0EA1A992845FFBFB483FF64255ECD@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Stathis Papaioannou > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 4:35 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population > > 2009/6/1 spike : > > > I haven't heard of anything like the Heavenly Heat or Genetalia > > Gumshoes in the west since the Spanish Inquisition. ?It has been a > > couple hundred years since Napoleon brought that to an end. > > http://www.lectlaw.com/files/sex14.htm > > (The situation has only changed since a 2003 US Supreme Court > decision, long after Napoleon.) > > "Sodomy remains illegal in Maryland, Virginia and 22 other > states, and while critics of sodomy laws say they are used > largely to discriminate against gay men and lesbians, most of > those laws also apply to heterosexuals... Stathis Papaioannou Hmmm, I guess that is one of those weird ones like the return of blasphemy laws. We would never have dreamed it was illegal to interfere with a religion, until one of our own was convicted of it. How weird is that? Interfering with a religion??? Surely that is one they dreamed up to fit the situation. Who would have ever dreamed that blasphemy would be illegal in the 21st century? Why cannot humans seem to rid ourselves of religion memes? spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 04:45:47 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:15:47 +0930 Subject: [ExI] autism/vaccination link In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0905312145l576eefc7x9b6fe06d9aa7ba0e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/30 spike : > Some here may have attended Dr. Kaufman's pitch at Stanford a couple years > ago. > > http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio..1000114# > > This article points out something I have been thinking for some time now, > and I am seeing it more and more, or perhaps perceiving that which was > always there.? We see science matters that are clouded by politics and other > considerations, to the point where the actual science?becomes irrelevant. > > A good?example was that article I posted yesterday on Bernoulli numbers, > where the mainstream press went on and on about the formula being found by a > teenage Swedish immigrant from Iraq, paragraph after paragraph in one news > story after another, but none of them would actually just write out the damn > formula!? None!? So how can we evaluate?? I don't care who he was or where > he was from, just the formula please.? It really isn't all about "See there, > immigration to Sweden is good."? Politics dominated what should have been a > purely scientific article. > > Other examples, the obvious one, evolution vs "intelligent" design. > > Anthropogenic global warming. > > Now this autism/vaccination link. > > It looks to me like science is being robbed of its credibility by factors > beyond our control. > > spike I think this might be the dark side of the evolution the internet; nasty, resilient super memes. The internet has had a great initial effect of shining the light of rationality onto commonly held ideas, under which poor ideas would break. So, for instance, I see woo taking a hit everywhere. For a fun example, see the comments on this site: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/ethicallivingblog/2009/may/26/you-ask-neals-yard-remedies On the other hand, memes adapt on a bacterial timeframe. I think we're generating rationality resistant memeplexes at an accelerating pace. Also, I'll go ahead and blame the mainstream media here. I think we're increasingly seeing them fall behind the 'net as a good way of providing information. They're hopeless one-way, a paradigm that's looking increasingly wrong. They're also slower than the 'net; how often these days do you see them reporting stuff lifted from somewhere online? I think as they struggle more, the worse parts of that world are sinking more into irrational discourse even that before. So, they function as an excellent amplifier for the memeplexes that resist rationality. Spike's examples above are great for this. So, we get these increasingly virulent irrational memplexes. Think of them like those hoax emails (eg: "Forward this email and Bill Gates will send you $200"), but working in spaces that matter. I don't know how you fight them. Rational argument delivered top down (eg: authorities denouncing them) doesn't work, they're already hardened to it. Maybe a good strategy is bottom-up rationality? All of us form a rational immune system for the group. Each person's part is to challenge these irrational memes wherever they pop up in our daily lives; don't let them go unchallenged. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 04:52:19 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:52:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] On the Street and On Facebook: The Homeless Stay Wired In-Reply-To: <5fb90e670905311846q3577471fy1b8edc8ffb782e91@mail.gmail.com> References: <511739.22910.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670905310035w68b93470o2e62e87ced9eabb@mail.gmail.com> <66e2c7af0905310050r514e063fo45e634076fd29ee4@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090531124558.02625fb8@satx.rr.com> <5fb90e670905311132u6b9afac0j7164bb4f93be5fc7@mail.gmail.com> <529D0776FCA24A62BCA3047E3830D1E7@spike> <5fb90e670905311846q3577471fy1b8edc8ffb782e91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670905312152m63b57e01y9ed641673e3b2cbc@mail.gmail.com> >Luckily, I managed to raise three children alone and all are now responsible, caring adults with plans to care >for me, :). Assuming, that is, they each manage to get good jobs after they finish college. Beth, thank you for sharing your story. I dearly hope things work out for you and your three adult children. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 05:00:33 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:30:33 +0930 Subject: [ExI] On the Street and On Facebook: The Homeless Stay Wired In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090531124558.02625fb8@satx.rr.com> References: <511739.22910.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670905310035w68b93470o2e62e87ced9eabb@mail.gmail.com> <66e2c7af0905310050r514e063fo45e634076fd29ee4@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090531124558.02625fb8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0905312200q7105bd15qdd8308bc0261e2b5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/1 Damien Broderick : > At 05:50 PM 5/31/2009 +1000, RL wrote: > >> Sure, I hear 'Internet Access' is right next to food, clothing and bedding >> on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. > > Did you actually bother to read the WSJ article JG url'd? Maslow would have > had no trouble understanding this: > > backpack to store his gear, a padlock for his footlocker at the shelter and > a $25 annual premium Flickr account to display the digital photos he takes. > > One recent morning, Mr. Livingston sat in a cafe that sometimes lets > customers tap its wireless connection, and shows off his personal home page, > featuring links for Chinese-language lessons. > > Mr. Livingston says his computer helps him feel more connected and human. > "It's frightening to be homeless," he says. "When I'm on here, I'm equal to > everybody else."> > > Damien Broderick I'm in the middle of reading Walden at the moment. I wonder if contemporary Thoreau would have added "Net Access" to his list of essentials (food, shelter, clothing, fuel)? I'm unsure, but I think he would have had a strong opinion one way or the other. The man liked to rant, and what beautiful rants they are. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Mon Jun 1 05:58:36 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:58:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future of news media, was RE: autism/vaccination link In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0905312145l576eefc7x9b6fe06d9aa7ba0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0905312145l576eefc7x9b6fe06d9aa7ba0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5672C4AA94084C048EF41B2757B56D86@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Emlyn > > 2009/5/30 spike : > > ... > > > > A good?example was that article I posted yesterday on Bernoulli > > numbers, where the mainstream press went on and on about > the formula > > being found by a teenage Swedish immigrant from Iraq, > paragraph after > > paragraph in one news story after another, but none of them would > > actually just write out the damn formula!? None!? ... spike > > ... > > Also, I'll go ahead and blame the mainstream media here. I > think we're increasingly seeing them fall behind the 'net as > a good way of providing information... Emlyn Ja. I still haven't figured out a way for the traditional media to find some place to exist. When newspapers were still relevant, they provided more than just the news stories. They were deciding for us which stories are important and which were to be relegated or ignored. With the internet, there is no need to control for paper space, since it doesn't actually cost anything to publish stories. There is no editor to decide for us which stories are important. We all become our own editors. Let us watch this closely, for in the past, news sources were few, and tended to be a converging influence on the population. Now we have replaced that with diverging influences. Another point: traditional news media need to do more and more for less and less. They are getting the old pressure for better, faster, cheaper. Well, they have been forced to choose faster and cheaper. As a prediction, I see news media becoming more like FoxNews. Reasoning: Fox is often thought to be the source with the most ideological slant, but consider an alternate notion. Fox is actually the most well-run news source from strictly a business point of view. One need only recognize that the news companies are not in business to report the news, but rather they are in business to make money. Look at it from that perspective, and everything you see there makes perfect sense. I predict that the other news sources will soon recognize that Fox is making a killing, whereas their companies are starving. Next, I can imagine a case where a news agency does not have a hundred full time staff, but rather a dozen staffers and a few thousand occasional contributors, who actually do something else for a living, but who are subject matter experts, who contribute when they see some big development in their narrow field of expertise. That makes news agencies a little like this list. Of course, much of what we will see in the news will be irrelevant junk: the latest blondie to disappear, Hollywood stars misbehaving and so forth, but that is what sells ad space, so that is what we get. Here is a graph showing the stock price for the past five years of the McClatchy Company, which owns newspapers. This pretty much tells it all: http://www.google.com/finance?q=McClatchy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla: en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=we spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 06:10:55 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:40:55 +0930 Subject: [ExI] future of news media, was RE: autism/vaccination link In-Reply-To: <5672C4AA94084C048EF41B2757B56D86@spike> References: <710b78fc0905312145l576eefc7x9b6fe06d9aa7ba0e@mail.gmail.com> <5672C4AA94084C048EF41B2757B56D86@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0905312310s3eee6e14gb2c8f253824d9761@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/1 spike : > > >> ...On Behalf Of Emlyn >> >> 2009/5/30 spike : >> > ... >> > >> > A good?example was that article I posted yesterday on Bernoulli >> > numbers, where the mainstream press went on and on about >> the formula >> > being found by a teenage Swedish immigrant from Iraq, >> paragraph after >> > paragraph in one news story after another, but none of them would >> > actually just write out the damn formula!? None!? ... spike >> >> ... >> >> Also, I'll go ahead and blame the mainstream media here. I >> think we're increasingly seeing them fall behind the 'net as >> a good way of providing information... Emlyn > > Ja. ?I still haven't figured out a way for the traditional media to find > some place to exist. ?When newspapers were still relevant, they provided > more than just the news stories. ?They were deciding for us which stories > are important and which were to be relegated or ignored. ?With the internet, > there is no need to control for paper space, since it doesn't actually cost > anything to publish stories. ?There is no editor to decide for us which > stories are important. ?We all become our own editors. > > Let us watch this closely, for in the past, news sources were few, and > tended to be a converging influence on the population. ?Now we have replaced > that with diverging influences. > > Another point: traditional news media need to do more and more for less and > less. ?They are getting the old pressure for better, faster, cheaper. ?Well, > they have been forced to choose faster and cheaper. Which is the worst choice for them. The 'net does faster and cheaper better than a traditional org will ever do. So through this lens, how do the remaining options, better & cheaper and better & faster, look? Better & cheaper might work for the opinion/editorial side of publications like the NY Times. Shrink, write good stuff slowly with less people. Cons here: you get to survive, but by shrinking, might mean you can't attract the best, you might lose relevance, that might compromise quality long term. Better & faster is where the walled gardens might work. eg: WSJ? Cons here: this seems reliant on being really high quality, better than most of the rest of the net. So you have to stay way up the pointy end of the pareto distribution, a very hard life. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 09:11:07 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:11:07 +0000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs Message-ID: Good analysis here in the New Yorker magazine: Quotes: About fifteen years ago, it seems, something began to change in McAllen. A few leaders of local institutions took profit growth to be a legitimate ethic in the practice of medicine. Not all the doctors accepted this. But they failed to discourage those who did. So here, along the banks of the Rio Grande, in the Square Dance Capital of the World, a medical community came to treat patients the way subprime-mortgage lenders treated home buyers: as profit centers. The real puzzle of American health care, I realized on the airplane home, is not why McAllen is different from El Paso. It?s why El Paso isn?t like McAllen. Every incentive in the system is an invitation to go the way McAllen has gone. When you look across the spectrum from Grand Junction to McAllen?and the almost threefold difference in the costs of care?you come to realize that we are witnessing a battle for the soul of American medicine. Somewhere in the United States at this moment, a patient with chest pain, or a tumor, or a cough is seeing a doctor. And the damning question we have to ask is whether the doctor is set up to meet the needs of the patient, first and foremost, or to maximize revenue. Providing health care is like building a house. The task requires experts, expensive equipment and materials, and a huge amount of co?rdination. Imagine that, instead of paying a contractor to pull a team together and keep them on track, you paid an electrician for every outlet he recommends, a plumber for every faucet, and a carpenter for every cabinet. Would you be surprised if you got a house with a thousand outlets, faucets, and cabinets, at three times the cost you expected, and the whole thing fell apart a couple of years later? Getting the country?s best electrician on the job (he trained at Harvard, somebody tells you) isn?t going to solve this problem. Nor will changing the person who writes him the check. ----------- Long article, but good stuff. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 11:22:33 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:22:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906010422y6c7efe6eoc8e13cf17a3662b0@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 11:10 PM, spike wrote: > Tom, these problems are mostly solved by using verrrry tiny humans, > preferrably a paraplegic. Not to mention making long zero gravity trips... short. We are not speaking here of vague "breakthrough propulsion technologies" of the kind that serve to waste a couple millions NASA budget, but of the engine currently being tried on the ISS, if I am not mistaken. -- Stefano Vaj From eschatoon at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 11:31:17 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:31:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transvision Nexus in Second Life Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90906010431q2855976fu1ffeb4273721a12e@mail.gmail.com> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/transvision_nexus_in_second_life/ http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Transvision_Nexus_in_SL http://transvision.cc/ The Transvision Nexus island in Second Life is dedicated to transhumanist outreach, conferences, seminars and social events. It is managed by several transhumanist groups, including the Cosmic Engineers and the Italian Transhumanists. The sim will also host the Second Life part of the Transvision 2010 conference, organized by the Italian Transhumanist Association. Cosmic Engineers have build rights, please request to join the group if you wish to create stunning transhumanist architecture, art, programs and games in Second Life. We will also create dedicated areas for Italian Transhumanists and other groups. At this moment the sim is undergoing a very fluid and fast development, with different visual ideas being tried and tested to see if they stick. The pictures have been taken at the first Cosmic Engineers Sunday meeting held on this sim on May 31, 2009. Contacts: http://cosmeng.org/, http://transumanisti.it/, http://transvision.cc/ and the Cosmic Engineers, Transumanisti and Transvision groups in Second Life. To reach the island, search for Transvision Nexus in the Second LIfe map and teleport. -- Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon aka Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 1 11:24:23 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:24:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] Manned Spaceflight (Was: future fizzle) Message-ID: <169779.72587.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> In addition to the list of reasons given previously for sending people to other planets, there's one reason you haven't brought up: setting up colonies away from Earth, so just in case the big existential risk we disregarded comes and wipes out Earth-based humans. Stephen Hawking is among the people suggesting that colonising other planets might be a good idea. http://hawking.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65 However, to make a working colony we need to explore the resources and figure out how a colony could support itself and then start sending people. As such, a manned mission is only a small part of the whole work needed for this to happen. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 12:21:42 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:21:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Manned Spaceflight (Was: future fizzle) In-Reply-To: <169779.72587.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <169779.72587.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906010521tafbe3baw4c0a0496b0343da0@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Tom Nowell wrote: > In addition to the list of reasons given previously for sending people to other planets, there's one reason you haven't brought up: setting up colonies away from Earth, so just in case the big existential risk we disregarded comes and wipes out Earth-based humans. Yes, this nicely adds up to the answer offered by Sir Hilary as to the conquest of the Everest ("Because it is there"). The best illustration of this rationale for space initiatives in general is AFAIK The Survival Imperative: Using Space to Protect Earth by William E. Burrows, which comes up with a number of scenarios where a presence in space may contribute to our survival, besides the obvious fact of not keeping all the eggs in the same basket, and including to our survival and prosperity *on Earth*. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 13:18:36 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:18:36 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2009/6/1 BillK : > Good analysis here in the New Yorker magazine: > The article is about overservicing. Medical overservicing is not only expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market medicine encourages overservicing. -- Stathis Papaioannou From pjmanney at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 13:22:36 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:22:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hey, Damien! Time to Twitter! Message-ID: <29666bf30906010622l577b445dk865a555e8da541d2@mail.gmail.com> New Scientist + Twitter + iPhone + remote viewing = ? http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17219-twitters-first-scientific-study-needs-you.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news PJ From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 14:06:16 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 07:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Ayn Rand and Evolution Message-ID: <378662.91063.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: >> 30, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Olga Bourlin >> wrote: >> >> Well, there is a lot more to this (I did not bring in the >> thread that my husband forwarded to me from his discussion >> group - it was very juicy!). ?I am merely starting to >> explore this aspect as far as Rand goes. > > If I must venture on a personal opinion, > I do not see any necessary contradiction between objectivist > ideas and evolution. Additionally, Ayn Rand was passionate > and multidisciplinary enough to put up relentless and > emphatic battles against anything she believed to have a > real relevance in respect of her worldview. > > But not being an objectivist myself, and being far from a > scholar of Rand's thought, I am probably not really > qualified to say a final word on the subject. I would use the label "Objectivist" to distinguish someone basically agreeing with Rand's philosophy versus just people who hold a more generic "objectivist" position in various area, such as "objectivists in art," who might completely disagree with Rand's wider philosophy and even her views on art, but hold there are objective esthetic standards in art. Also, I don't think one needs to be an Objectivists to be a scholar of Rand or Objectivism. (Not that you were stating you needed to be, but I just wanted to make sure no one believes that. My guess would be that the most "objective" scholar of Objectivism would probably be something who is NOT an Objectivist, but, at the same time, is not dismissive of Rand or Objectivism. Chris Sciabarra has done much to foster such scholarship in recent years.) But more to the meat of this issue: I agree that there's nothing incompatible between evolution and Objectivism. (And I do consider myself a scholar of Objectivism -- if only of the amateur sort.:) That said, Rand and many of her seconds, however, do draw a very sharp line between humans and other animals. They tend* to be very critical of animal rights, animal language, and most things that tend to minimize the distinction between humans and other animals. I think this is more part of their deep psychology than of their philosophy -- yet it is there and detectable. This doesn't mean every last person influenced by Rand will hold to these views -- or that anyone accepting her broad principles and methods must accept her "exceptionalist" view of humans. That would be package-dealing -- treating things that are only accidentally related as if they were essentially related -- something even Rand railed against. (This is not to say Rand would rail against her own package-dealing. My experience is people are good at detecting flaws in others' thinking -- flaws that they themselves would never detect in their own.) Regards, Dan * I use "tend" because there are always exceptions. From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 1 14:55:21 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:55:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Manned Spaceflight (Was: future fizzle) References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <45AE375B4CB647AB80DD8191D3619C0A@MyComputer> Message-ID: "Stathis Papaioannou" > Most of science, commerce and even military spending is ultimately for > entertainment purposes, since everything above subsistence is > entertainment. You don't go far enough, by that same criteria one could say that the reason most people prefer being alive rather than dead is because they fine it more entertaining. When a concept becomes too broad or too specific it is no longer useful. John K Clark From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 14:33:07 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 07:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Ayn Rand and Evolution Message-ID: <283840.26070.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Olga Bourlin wrote: >> If I must venture on a personal opinion, I do not see >> any necessary contradiction between objectivist ideas and >> evolution. Additionally, Ayn Rand was passionate and >> multidisciplinary enough to put up relentless and emphatic >> battles against anything she believed to have a real >> relevance in respect of her worldview. >> >> But not being an objectivist myself, and being far >> from a scholar of Rand's thought, I am probably not really >> qualified to say a final word on the subject. > > I have to plead ignorance, as well - I am no scholar of > Rand's work. > > However, where I see an interesting (potential) > contradiction is in the claim that objectivism (or > Objectivism) is rational.? I know Ayn Rand claimed to > be - and promoted - rationalism. I think it'd be more accurate to say she claimed to be rational and promoted rationality. I'm only making this distinction because Rand criticized a specific type of philosophy called Rationalism as she understood it -- this being, by her lights, the view that reasoning from innate ideas was _the_ route to knowledge and she generally viewed this as associated with Plato and Descartes. (She also railed against what she called Empiricism. Her rejection of both views, of course, was dialectical -- in that she accepted features of both in her philosophy and method.) > Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't there be a contradiction if a > religious person professed allegiance to the objectivist > viewpoint?? Why?? Because religion is not rational. That'd be Rand's view too. Her lukewarm stance on evolution were not because she was religious. I'm not exactly sure where they came from, but I think it partly might have arisen from her unfamiliarity with biology (no damning criticism) and from her rejection of Nietzsche. On the latter, there seems to be good evidence she was strongly influenced by Nietzsche and Russian Nietzscheans. Her rejection of these views might have also made her suspicious of Darwinism -- or of applying Darwinism to humans. She also rejected, IIRC, the popular view of "Social Darwinism." So my guess here is her general ignorance of this science and its arguments, her wanting to distance herself from Nietzsche and his cohorts, and her suspicion of Social Darwinism probably led to her lukewarm stance on evolution. >> From a discussion my husband was having on that other >> forum: >> >> Nathaniel Branden, in /The Benefits and Hazards of the >> Philosophy of Ayn >> Rand/, said of her that she had difficulty accepting >> any scientific >> theory that came after Sir Isaac Newton. He then gave >> this specific example: >> >>> remember being astonished to hear her say one day, >> /"After all, the >>> theory of evolution is only a hypothesis."/ I >> asked her, /"You mean >>> you seriously doubt that more complex life >> forms-including >>> humans-evolved from less complex life forms?"/ She >>> shrugged and >>> responded,/ "I'm really not prepared to say,"/ or >>> words to that >>> effect. I do not mean to imply that she wanted to >>> substitute for the >>> theory of evolution the religious belief that we >>> are all God's >>> creation; but there was definitely something about >>> the concept of >>> evolution that made her uncomfortable. > > > Unlike religion, there's no controversy about evolution > being rational, is there? > > Wouldn't evolution fit into the view of rationality? I think there's a difference between accepting a theory and a theory's being rational. In this case, and from the Branden quote, Rand wasn't saying, "Evolution is irrational!" (Nor was she offering up the dichotomy of it's either evolution or God. After all, she was an atheist and believed there was no supernatural realm or creation.) > So why would Rand be either reticent or inaudible about her > views on evolution?? If, indeed, the subject made her > uncomfortable ... why would it have done so? See above. I really think it's more about her psychology or wanting to bury her influences than anything else. This is, of course, my speculation. Someone like Chris Sciabarra -- one of the leading Rand scholars and promoters of Rand scholarship might be in a better position to say. Regards, Dan From eschatoon at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 15:23:50 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:23:50 +0200 Subject: [ExI] GOOGLE AND THE RED QUEEN revised, AN ESSAY BY EXTROPIA DaSILVA Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90906010823v34017343ldee995abd06c4321@mail.gmail.com> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/google_and_the_red_queen_revised_an_essay_by_extropia_dasilva/ In this revised version of her 2008 article, Extropia refers to both my meat and digital selves: ?Suppose there were a hundred Eschatoon Magics in SL, one of whom was controlled by Giulio Prisco, the rest being controlled by software emulations of his mind?? and concludes that ?By the time mind uploading is generally available, people will have long forgotten a time when a singular self was ?normal?. They will be used to multiple viewpoints, their brains processing information coming not only from their local surroundings, but also from the remote sensors and cyberspaces they are simultaneously linked to. They will have already become familiar with mental concepts migrating from the brain to spawn digital intermediaries within the clouds of smart dust that surrounds them.?. Even if Extropia is ?currently running almost entirely on a pre-singularity meatbrain? she does a good job at imagining a post-singularity Internet. -- Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon aka Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jun 1 15:41:27 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:41:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <791670.45120.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A2148BC.4030509@libero.it> <4A228445.7040404@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A23F6A7.3050607@libero.it> Il 31/05/2009 23.08, BillK ha scritto: > 2009/5/31 painlord2k wrote >> "If the supply grow (all other equal) the price will not raise; if the >> demand grow (all other equal) the price will not fall." > But in the real world 'all other is *never* equal'. > So the theoretical perfect law is of little practical use. As much as the law of gravity, as we have a perfect law about the attraction of two bodies and none perfect for 3 or more bodies. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.46/2145 - Release Date: 05/31/09 05:53:00 From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 15:54:13 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Valid economic reasoning should never go out of style Message-ID: <157047.31318.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 5/29/09, BillK wrote: > On 5/28/09, Dan wrote: >>? We should be looking for valid economic >> reasoning -- not reasoning that >> is either old fashioned or new fangled.? >> Historically, the urge to sluff off valid >> economic reasoning is very strong.? The "new >> economy" talk of the railroad >> era -- yes, they had it back then too! -- led >> investors, policy-makers, and the >> general public to believe that bad policies -- >> policies that failed previously >> and that were theoretically unsound (even given the >> state of theory in the >> 19th century) -- would somehow work out.? And the >> boom-bust cycle resulted. > > No. The boom-bust cycle in inherent in laissez-faire > capitalism. > (I know you and some libertarian economic theorists deny > this). > But that's the way it works in the real world. > One of your entrepreneurs starts selling a new widget which > becomes > popular. Everybody else and their dog join in, adding > features to the > widgets. Some widgets become very rare and expensive. > People start > speculating on widget futures. People start investing in > widgets for > their pension scheme. Then it all collapses when everybody > decides > they don't want any more widgets. > > It's just the herd mentality. This is a lot like the Schumpeter theory and only makes sense if you believe in lots of coincidences working together.? (My guess would be that such coincidences would be so rare that busts -- general downturns -- would be mostly theory talk: few would have been alive to actually see one.:)? The problem with the theory is it doesn't explain why not only widgets go bust, but so does the whole economy.? The key feature of the business cycle -- which even non-Austrians tend to agree on -- is that it impacts the whole economy and not just one industry or one sector. (Don't you find it extremely unlikely the whole economy would get belly up simply because, say, iPod sales go through a boom and a bust?) Nor does it explain why everyone goes into widgets.? "Herd mentality" explains nothing as it wouldn't explain why herds form at particular times.? Instead, it seems more like labeling something instead of explaining it.? And, yes, it's true that people will imitate others and that the lure of imitating those who are or seem successful is always there.? But this doesn't explain, in a real world economy, why even non-imitators get burned.? E.g., in an inflation, the people who actually never join in, such as retirees on fixed incomes, experience higher prices for goods and services.? These people weren't herding with the fat cats. Austrian Business Cycle Theory, on the other hand, explains why there's a "cluster of errors."? This is where many entrepreneurs make mistakes around the same time.? (In any real economy, one would expect entrepreneurial error -- just not systematic error.)? Such entrepreneurs, per se, aren't imititating each other.? In many cases, they're actually pursuing quite innovative projects and even keep them secret.? But it's not the particular innovation, the secrecy, or the lack or presence of imitation that matters here.? Instead, it's the inflation that leads entrepreneurs to misjudge en masse -- specifically, making them think their costs are going to be lower (often because, in the initial stages of the boom, they can borrow money at lower interest rates*) and their final sales higher. >> This is actually a rather old fashioned view of wealth >> and of production. >> The valid economic way to look at wealth and >> production is NOT to concretely >> look at farms and factories and assume that only >> specific physical goods are >> wealth.? Instead, wealth is what people value (if >> no one wanted oil, e.g., it >> wouldn't be considered part of wealth or useful to >> obtaining wealth); >> production is the process of transforming something >> into something more >> desirable (and this can be anything at all from the >> construction worker laying >> slabs to produce a building to the singer singing a >> song to produce music >> people want to hear).? That is a very wide and >> all inclusive view of wealth >> and of production.? It's not limited to who has >> the most farms or the bigger >> factories. > > Wealth is power. That's why people want millions of > dollars. > The millionaires get the best girls and have a yacht and a > private jet. Well, wealth, in a sense, is power.? But, in economic terms, it's merely whatever people value.? In a monastic community, people might value quiet time, a lonely cell, etc.? Granted, this is rare, but, for them, this is wealth.? My point with this rather far-fetched example is not to downplay your current response, but to merely highlight that what's wealth is subjective, i.e., relative to one's values and this can apply to the whole of society if the whole of society starts to value something over something or even completely disvalues something.? (On the last, were we all to adopt the Amish value scales, most technology would seem a waste to us and we would no longer value these things.? You wouldn't be able to sell MP3 players or downloadable music, for instance, and you wouldn't want them for yourself.) Also, I wouldn't look at this in purely cynical terms. E.g., people can obtain wealth to have more control over their lives -- not so much to control other people. For instance, someone saving for retirement is NOT necessarily doing this so she can have servants to boss around or so that she can show up her neighbors. (This is not to deny people using wealth for status or other reasons.) >>?I don't think this has to do with being >> moralistic.? One can completely take >> values out of the theory: malinvestments are >> malinvestments not because >> Lee or I don't like them, but because they lead to a >> production structure that >> doesn't sustain in the long run -- one that eventually >> must be corrected -- not >> because people are all moralistic but because >> eventually projects invested >> in fail and fail much more frequently than can be >> accounted for by simple, >> unsystematic entrepreneurial error.*? That's an >> objective truth -- not >> dependent on our values or morality or misdiagnoses. > > Boom-bust entrepreneurs *always* fail. The whole point is > to enable a > boom in widgets and suck money from the population (while > it is > fashionable for everybody to have a widget). Then, cash in > the huge > salaries, sell the company for millions, and watch the bust > from your > island mansion. It has very little to do with creating > 'value'. See above.? This sort of thing might work on a small scale, but it wouldn't happen economy-wide unless there were a means of transmitting that to the whole economy. ABCT far better explains this: inflation is the means to transmit what would be isolated problems to the whole economy. > > December 22, 2008.? Quote: > It's time to drive the final nail into the coffin of > laissez-faire > capitalism by treating it like the discredited ideology it > inarguably > is. If not, the Dr. Frankensteins of the right will surely > try to > revive the monster and send it marauding through our > economy once > again. This is just the usual rant against free markets. Ho-hum. It's not going to prove anything and is merely preaching to the choir. The author, too, doesn't see the difference between being pro-free market and pro-business -- nor the difference between rhetoric and reality. Granted, on the latter, Republicans tend to talk the free market talk, but their actual policies are pro-business -- meaning interventionist. (Historically, too, Republicans have been for interventionism: Lincoln's party was one of high tariffs, central banking, and corporate welfare.) > We've only just begun to bury the financially dead, and the > free > market fundamentalists are already looking to deflect the > blame. Actually, this sounds like bizarro world.? The firms that should be "financially dead" are exactly those being bailed out.? Do you see the current round of bailouts and the preceding interventions -- from artificially low interest rates to previous bailouts to special privileges and other regulations -- as the free market in action? > > > December 20, 2008.? Quote: > There are plenty of culprits, like lenders who peddled easy > credit, > consumers who took on mortgages they could not afford and > Wall Street > chieftains who loaded up on mortgage-backed securities > without regard > to the risk. > > But the story of how we got here is partly one of Mr. > Bush?s own > making, according to a review of his tenure that included > interviews > with dozens of current and former administration > officials. > > From his earliest days in office, Mr. Bush paired his > belief that > Americans do best when they own their own home with his > conviction > that markets do best when let alone. > > He pushed hard to expand homeownership, especially among > minorities, > an initiative that dovetailed with his ambition to expand > the > Republican tent ? and with the business interests of some > of his > biggest donors. But his housing policies and hands-off > approach to > regulation encouraged lax lending standards. While the Bush Administration and the Fed deserve some blame for the housing boom -- the Fed perhaps more so because it controlled interest rates and kept them at historical lows during the boom -- the CRA is also to blame and pre-Bush (heck, it started in 1977!) as are the long time federal policy of intervening in housing markets, including the use of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. The lesson here is not market failure, but the failure of interventionism. Specifically, the federal government over decades has decided it knows what's best for people and intervened in the direction of increasing home ownership. Yes, this really took off with the very low interest rates under Greenspan and pushing the "ownership society" under Bush, but these, too, were both interventions in the economy -- unless you believe it's not intervention when Fed sets interest rates and when the federal government promotes certain financial decisions over others. (To be extremely clear: in a free market, there would be no government intervention -- either to set interest rates or to make it easier or harder for people to buy (or sell or suck the wallpaper off) homes.) Regards, Dan *? This leads them to bid up the prices of factors of production.? Wherever the new money -- e.g., the newly created loans -- goes first, this will be the first place to experience a shortage.? This will draw in more resources -- e.g., people will start shifting labor and supplies to those entreprenuers who are now paying more for those factors.? Other savvy entrepreneurs may notice this and forecast, rightly or not, future price increases, thereby entering these markets as supplies to the initial set.? It's not a herd mentality per se, but entrepreneurs doing what they should do under normal conditions -- attempt to forecast prices to make a profit -- but the conditions are not normal -- that is, there is actual inflation, which entrepreneurs are either unaware of or don't forecast correctly (during the initial stages of a boom, inflation expectation tend to be very low; in the latter stages, inflation expectations are often very high). From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 15:59:44 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed?/was Re: Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <907286.74037.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 5/31/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:20 AM 6/1/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote: >> My psychological state don't make me able to buy a >> home if I have not the money to do so. > > Hahahahaha! I see you haven't been reading the papers in > the last few years. > > (Granted, being able to buy a home without money requires > an appropriate pathologically greedy psychological state in > other people and their institutions as well. Welcome to the > real world.) Since people have been greedy, even pathologically so, from time immemorial (and probably will continue to be so even in any posthuman future), the greed explanation can't explain much. Why did the boom happen then and the bust now? Greed can't explain that -- unless you posit a cycle of greediness. That said, yes, there are lenders out there -- or were, as a lot of that's drying up now -- who will lend with no money down. One has to ask, though, why they appeared on the scene. What makes them possible in the first place -- as people generally don't want to make loans to people who can't repay them? The explanation seems to lay in the direction of the historically low interest rates, the subsidies to home ownership (under the CRA and with the federally backed and now owned Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae), and how these interacted. Regards, Dan From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 16:24:31 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 16:24:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Valid economic reasoning should never go out of style In-Reply-To: <157047.31318.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <157047.31318.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/09, dan_ust wrote: > (To be extremely clear: in a free market, there would be no government > intervention -- either to set interest rates or to make it easier or harder > for people to buy (or sell or suck the wallpaper off) homes.) > I'm afraid that it looks to me as though you are arguing on the basis of faith in 'free market' theory rather than letting the facts tell you their own story. You will never get a free market without intervention, either from government or 'big business' or powerful people or organizations. So nobody can really contest your descriptions of the wonders of free markets, because we have never had them and we never will. If anyone points at bad examples you will always be able to say that it wasn't *really* a free market and, of course, you have no examples of a successful free market on your side. After the Fed and Bush let the markets rip and caused financial disaster, amazingly, you say, 'Well that's because they didn't let them rip enough! It was only a half-hearted rip.' If that isn't a faith-based statement, I don't know what is! BillK From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 17:15:03 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Valid economic reasoning should never go out of style Message-ID: <133411.93000.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, BillK wrote: > On 6/1/09, dan_ust wrote: > >> (To be extremely clear: in a free market, there would >> be no government >> intervention -- either to set interest rates or to >> make it easier or harder >> for people to buy (or sell or suck the wallpaper off) >> homes.) > > > I'm afraid that it looks to me as though you are arguing on > the basis > of faith in 'free market' theory rather than letting the > facts tell you their own story. Facts must be interpreted, but, in this case, where are the facts that support your contention? > You will never get a free market without intervention, > either from > government or 'big business' or powerful people or > organizations. Were that so, then you could not blame free markets for what happened? After all, if there can be never be "a free market without intervention," then you can't seriously blame free markets for any problems. Wouldn't you have to argue that some sort of interventions were to blame? (Logically, you might debate over which interventions were to blame.) > So nobody can really contest your descriptions of the > wonders of free > markets, because we have never had them and we never will. I'm not so sure about that. I do admit, to have completely free markets -- zero interventions -- would require total elimination of statism. That's unlikely under current conditions. However, it's still possible to approximate that goal by eliminating interventions, though likely better in a thoughtful manner. > If anyone points at bad examples you will always be able to > say that > it wasn't *really* a? free market and, of course, you > have no examples > of a successful free market on your side. One must start with a valid theory of economics to understand the examples. Without this, there's the problem, since we can't experiment in economies, of tracing out what causes what in an economy. E.g., the price of homes rose during the housing boom. Care to tell us why that happened? And why did housing prices decline? Without a valid theory of economics, you're left with what here? Citing newspaper headlines and pundits for an explanation. > After the Fed and > Bush let > the markets rip and caused financial disaster, amazingly, > you say, > 'Well that's because they didn't let them rip enough! It > was only a > half-hearted rip.' But my argument was not and has not been that the Fed and Bush "they didn't let them rip enough." I cited specific examples of interventions -- this time around and earlier (Do you, e.g., admit that Sarbannes Oxley is an intervention? Is the Fed setting interest rates an intervention? Is the CRA an intervention? Is support of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae interventionist or not?) which you've ignored. > If that isn't a faith-based statement, I > don't know what is! Well, for one you made up, sure. I never said that. I've maintained and still maintain that the Bush Regime was interventionist in character. I also maintain that the Bush Regime did NOT lower the amount of interventions; it didn't stand still or turn back interventions. Yes, some of its rhetoric was pro-free market, but that's a typical tactic for the GOP. When it came to actually delivering on this, what we see is subsidies for the politically connected, addition of new regulations (Sarbannes Oxley), continuance or increase in tariffs (recall the steel tariff), and huge increase in government spending (which is an intervention in the market in two ways: the government has to get the money to spend (via taxaton, borrowing (delayed taxation), or inflation(a form of distributed taxation: the value of the money unit declines, with time lags and path dependencies, over the whole economy)). Or do you disagree on these being facts? Regards, Dan From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 18:09:31 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:09:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ayn Rand and Evolution In-Reply-To: <378662.91063.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <378662.91063.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906011109sf90f7e5v18ba11d6226abf1e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Dan wrote: > Also, I don't think one needs to be an Objectivists to be a scholar of Rand > or Objectivism. (Not that you were stating you needed to be, but I just > wanted to make sure no one believes that. My guess would be that the most > "objective" scholar of Objectivism would probably be something who is NOT an > Objectivist, but, at the same time, is not dismissive of Rand or > Objectivism. Chris Sciabarra has done much to foster such scholarship in > recent years.) Mmhhh. As far as one's ideas are concerned, who is better qualified than a marxist to comment on marxism, a christian on christianism or a transhumanist on transhumanism? But of course, speaking of philological reconstruction of a given event or historical position, somebody who does not have a stake might be more reliable... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 18:22:46 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:22:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Ayn Rand and Evolution In-Reply-To: <580930c20906011109sf90f7e5v18ba11d6226abf1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <378662.91063.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20906011109sf90f7e5v18ba11d6226abf1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Mmhhh. As far as one's ideas are concerned, who is better qualified than a > marxist to comment on marxism, a christian on christianism or a > transhumanist on transhumanism? But of course, speaking of philological > reconstruction of a given event or historical position, somebody who does > not have a stake might be more reliable... > Or a $cientologist on $cientology????? Have a word with Wikipedia. BillK From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 18:06:21 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <10493.81675.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 5/31/09, BillK wrote: > 2009/5/31 painlord2k wrote > >> The psychology or the conditions at hand could change >> the scheduling of the >> wills of the agents involved, sure. Psychology could >> help explain the >> behaviour of the agents, but do not invalidate the law >> of supply-demand. >> Different psychologies or conditions could change the >> shape of the curve as >> they change the demand and the supply. But the law is >> always the same. >> >> "If the supply grow (all other equal) the price will >> not raise; if the >> demand grow (all other equal) the price will not >> fall." > > But in the real world 'all other is *never* equal'. As someone pointed out, this applies to all laws -- including those of physics. You'll never get two experimental conditions, e.g., to be exactly the same. (The usual tack is to reduce the variability down enough so that the relevant factors overwhelm all others, but this is a matter of judgment and one can think of two theorists coming to completely different conclusions from the same experiment -- as has happened often enough.) > So the theoretical perfect law is of little practical use. No so. This is not a perfect law in the sense that it doesn't apply. Instead, it applies to all such phenomena. To wit, armed with this law (and other economic laws) one can look at the data and attempt to interpret it correctly. This is especially important in cases where it appears that the law is being violated: it directs you to look for confounding factors. (Of course, at the limit, it should call you to question the law; economic science has progressed by steadily weeding out "bad" economic laws -- I mean laws are either are completely false or only apply to a limited range of economic phenomena.) For instance, if one sees an increase in supply and price going up, then there has to be an increase in demand and one can start, as an empirical researcher rather than armchair thinker, to look for where that demand has gone up and why. (Prices, per se, are really price surrogates*: they tell us something but not really the Why of something. For example, a rise in the price of oil could mean supply has decreased or is expected to decrease, but it could also mean demand has increased or is expected to increase -- or some combination of the two. The price increase doesn't tell us which -- much less tell us why, e.g., the supply has gone down (war? an oil spill? peak oil?) or the demand up (summer driving season? booming economy?).) Regards, Dan * See Hayek's "The Use of Knowledge in Society" at: http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/hykKnw1.html and Esteban Thomsen's _Prices and Knowledge_. Thomsen especially emphasizes that all real world prices are disequilibrium prices -- so they never perfectly transmit even in their information surrogate role. This is not a critique of free markets per se as an interference in the price mechanism can't improve it -- because interfering agents possess no better means of improving the price system. Any intervention can only makes things worse -- from the perspective of perfecting the price mechanism or the market process. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 18:46:18 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:46:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ayn Rand and Evolution In-Reply-To: References: <378662.91063.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20906011109sf90f7e5v18ba11d6226abf1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906011146x348104b5hfd00082949c60545@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:22 PM, BillK wrote: > Or a $cientologist on $cientology????? > Have a word with Wikipedia. > Indeed. :-) But there I believe it is more a matter of an effort by Scientology of removing or replacing other people's opinions on the "church" than of their having their say. As to what Scientology actually thinks or says, in fact I don't believe it can be studied without reference to real-world scientologists. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 18:54:34 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Ayn Rand and Evolution Message-ID: <921278.21195.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > 2009 at 4:06 PM, Dan > wrote: > > Also, I don't think one needs to be an Objectivists to > be a scholar of Rand or Objectivism. ?(Not that you were > stating you needed to be, but I just wanted to make sure no > one believes that. ?My guess would be that the most > "objective" scholar of Objectivism would probably > be something who is NOT an Objectivist, but, at the same > time, is not dismissive of Rand or Objectivism. ?Chris > Sciabarra has done much to foster such scholarship in recent > years.) > > Mmhhh. As far as one's ideas are concerned, who is > better qualified than a marxist to comment on marxism, a > christian on christianism or a transhumanist on > transhumanism? But of course, speaking of philological > reconstruction of a given event or historical position, > somebody who does not have a stake might be more reliable... Branden likely has a stake here, but I trust him on this. :) I forgot -- and a certain Rand scholar reminded me -- to mention that there has been some Objectivist work on evolution, e.g., Binswanger's _The Biological Basis of Teleological Concepts_. (Don't laugh!:) Regards, Dan From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 18:59:40 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Restructuring executive compensation Message-ID: <57358.18410.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Max More wrote: > While I think there is value in the > high-level discussions of what caused the financial mess and > ensuing economic contraction, not enough attention on this > list has been given to the specifics. While I agree with > those who point the finger at government policies (including > those of the Fed and Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, etc), I also > agree that the market economy does experience swings. These > are not necessarily bad, but smoothing them out a bit is > probably good -- making economic coordination easier and > reducing the costs of misallocated resources. I'm not sure those swings are endogenous to the market economy. In fact, there's reason to suspect on a totally free market, there would be few if any total economy swings, but only localized or at best secoral ones. Of course, all of this would depend on the choices people make, but the kind of systematic behavior we now see -- e.g., where many US investors invested in emerging markets during the 1990s because, it seems, the Fed or US federal government would bail them out (as it did with the Peso crisis, the Asian crisis, and the Russian crisis) -- seems due to interventions. Interventions on the whole tend to make any economy less flexible; interventions in finance and money more so than others because banking and money impact the whole economy. > One factor that no doubt contributed to the problems is the > way executive compensation has been incentivizing executives > to take on excessive risk in pursuit of short-term gains. > That is *not* inherent in the market system; it's a result > of the specific compensation schemes used. I'm not as well versed in this area as I'd like to be, but from my studies the question to ask is why are certain "compensation schemes" selected? This has not been an area of zero intervention and seems related not merely to direct interventions in compensation (e.g., caps on payouts, including the 1993 one you mention*) but also to the threat of interventions (as when news stories get published and the Congress holds hearings; threatened regulation is an intervention in the same way as a mugger threatening to kill someone changes the victim's behavior -- even if the mugger never actually lays a hand on the victim**) and other regulations in the market. On the latter, think of the regulation of corporate takeover. Takeovers were lambasted in the press until laws were passed (from the Williams Act in 1968 on down) requiring all sorts of delays and approvals for a takeover to get a green light from the regulators. But such takeovers generally happened because takeover targets were thought to be poorly run, often with managers overpaid. > Four authors have > recently published a working paper suggesting a better > compensation scheme. My review is here: > > "Dynamic Incentive Accounts" > http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreCO.aspx?coid=CO5290911481773 I would only want to see this plan voluntarily adopted -- and not adopted merely because of either a legal mandate or the threat of such a mandate. Regards, Dan * Actually, this shifted compensation more toward options, making managers more likely to take big risks. Why not just remove this cap and others like it? ** Jesse Walker pointed to this in how the Hayes Code came about -- studios adopted the code because they feared the government would come in and regulate them: http://www.reason.com/news/show/27954.html From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 19:00:14 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:00:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <10493.81675.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <10493.81675.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/09, dan_ust wrote: > > No so. This is not a perfect law in the sense that it doesn't apply. Instead, it > applies to all such phenomena. To wit, armed with this law (and other economic > laws) one can look at the data and attempt to interpret it correctly. This is > especially important in cases where it appears that the law is being violated: > it directs you to look for confounding factors. (Of course, at the limit, it should > call you to question the law; economic science has progressed by steadily > weeding out "bad" economic laws -- I mean laws are either are completely false > or only apply to a limited range of economic phenomena.) > I think we are just disagreeing slightly about what a 'law' is exactly. I say that if it is a law that cannot be used to make predictions, then it is of little practical use. i.e. it will lead you to make bad investments. You seem to say, (one can never be sure), ;) that, sure, often things happen which don't follow this 'law' but that is because other things have changed. I agree it is nice to analyze why my investments have failed, but I would prefer to have a 'law' that told me not to make these investments in the first place. BillK From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 19:19:53 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <62854.88914.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, BillK wrote: > On 6/1/09, dan_ust wrote: >> No so.? This is not a perfect law in the sense >> that it doesn't apply.? Instead, it >> applies to all such phenomena.? To wit, armed >> with this law (and other economic >> laws) one can look at the data and attempt to >> interpret it correctly.? This is >> especially important in cases where it appears that >> the law is being violated: >> it directs you to look for confounding factors.? >> (Of course, at the limit, it should >> call you to question the law; economic science has >> progressed by steadily >> weeding out "bad" economic laws -- I mean laws are >> either are completely false >> or only apply to a limited range of economic >> phenomena.) > > I think we are just disagreeing slightly about what a 'law' > is exactly. > > I say that if it is a law that cannot be used to make > predictions, > then it is of little practical use.? i.e. it will lead > you to make bad investments. How will it lead you to make bad investments? > You seem to say, (one can never be sure), ;)?that, > sure, often things > happen which don't follow this 'law' but that is because > other things > have changed. I agree it is nice to analyze why my > investments have > failed, but I would prefer to have a 'law' that told me not > to make these investments in the first place. Not at all. My point is that this particular law -- and laws of this type: economic or praxeological laws -- are not the same as other types of scientific laws. They are more akin to laws in the deductive sciences in that the phenomenon that fall under simply cannot violate them. In this case, it's not that if you see a price rise and supply has increased, the law has been violated, so we have to make up stuff to get it to work. Rather, if supply increases and the price rise, then we must look at the demand: the law focuses us on explaining the price rise when this happens along with an increase in supply as a rise in demand. Then, when we want to explain why the price rose, we have to frame any hypotheses about this in terms of why demand rose. This is how laws work in economics. And they don't, as I've said before, have predictive value in the same way, say, chemical laws do -- because there are no constant relations in human action -- at least, none we know of. What's meant by this last point is one can't apply something like Mill's methods to empirically validate these laws -- e.g., we can't say a 10% increase in supply will lead to a 5% fall in price. Regards, Dan From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 20:20:41 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:20:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <791670.45120.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A2148BC.4030509@libero.it> Message-ID: On 5/31/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > Being a "rational agent" implies a certain psychological state. If > many participants in the market were "irrational" then it would change > the market, perhaps to their detriment and everyone elses, as we see > in boom and bust cycles. And even if everyone conforms to a definition > of "rational" you still have to explain the actual demand for a > product, the level to which the demand will be sensitive to price > changes, what the beliefs about future prices are and how this will > affect demand, and so on. Psychological states and physical resources > are the basic interacting elements out of which the economy emerges. I > don't think there is anything radical in this statement. > See: Irrational Exuberance By LOUIS UCHITELLE Published: April 17, 2009 Look around you, George A. Akerlof and Robert J. Shiller say. The second coming of the Great Depression is, like the original, a direct result of animal spirits. If only we had factored those turbulent emotions into economic theory, we might not be repeating the earlier tragedy. Akerlof, a Nobel laureate, and Shiller, a good bet to become one, are prominent mainstream economists. They don?t deviate easily from orthodox theory, with its allegiance to the proposition that people are essentially rational, well informed and unemotional in the numerous transactions that shape the economy. But in ?Animal Spirits,? they have deviated ? and they have done so just as mainstream theory self-destructs. There was nothing rational, well ?informed or unemotional about the behavior that has all but collapsed the economy. That leaves most of America?s economists without a believable framework for explaining how we got into this mess. Akerlof and Shiller are the first to try to rework economic theory for our times. The effort itself makes their book a milestone. ---------- BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 1 21:21:00 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:21:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <62854.88914.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <62854.88914.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601161800.010e10c8@satx.rr.com> At 12:19 PM 6/1/2009 -0700, Dan wrote: >This is how laws work in economics. And they don't, as I've said >before, have predictive value in the same way, say, chemical laws do >-- because there are no constant relations in human action -- at >least, none we know of. Unless it's the phases of the moons of Saturn that control these human action variables, I'd guess that you're pointing directly to what Stathis and BillK and I mean by "psychological" components of economic behavior. Whew! Glad that's resolved. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 1 21:41:10 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:41:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601163739.0230cf98@satx.rr.com> Cheney: No link between Saddam Hussein, 9/11 CNN - 20 minutes ago WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Vice President Dick Cheney said Monday that he does not believe Saddam Hussein was involved in the planning or execution of the September 11, 2001, attacks. wellll... dang! From moulton at moulton.com Mon Jun 1 22:16:06 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:16:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 23:18 +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/6/1 BillK : > > Good analysis here in the New Yorker magazine: > > > > The article is about overservicing. Medical overservicing is not only > expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market medicine encourages > overservicing. Whether "Free market medicine" encourages overservicing is a conjecture. Perhaps correct; perhaps incorrect. But since there is not a free market in medicine in the USA it is difficult to apply that conjecture to the McAllen situation. Since medicine is regulated in the USA you could more easily make the claim that the current type of regulated medicine might encourage overservicing in certain areas. I said "current type of regulated medicine" since a different type of regulation could score differently in the measurements and I said "might" just to include the possibility that there are other factors not yet noticed. Fred From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 22:42:43 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 00:42:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601163739.0230cf98@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601163739.0230cf98@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906011542g6bd221bfqbf6cb676b750e54e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Cheney: No link > between Saddam Hussein, 9/11 > > CNN - ?20 minutes ago > WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Vice President Dick Cheney said Monday that he > does not believe Saddam Hussein was involved in the planning or execution of > the September 11, 2001, attacks. > > wellll... dang! Why, isn't that wonderful how US politicians are always ready to recognise their own mistakes? :-) -- Stefano Vaj From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 1 22:49:25 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:49:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] long breezy story for a friday evening Message-ID: <939013.57656.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Spike, thanks for this very amusing story. It is more impressive than some of my college misadventures and ranks alongside some of the finest anecdotes of my more outrageous friends. If I didn't know better (ie hadn't wasted so many hours watching teen movies in the 90s) I would suggest Spike had lifted the idea from a movie. After all, the kids interested in science & engineering go all-out into raising more cash than the popular girls and stick it to the man by sneaking into rockets and stealing stuff?? An excuse to use girls in string bikinis as essential to the plot? A twist in the tale when the money gets spent on "Sit on my face"? Honestly, box-office smashes have been written with thinner material than this. I must say though, I can no longer take your criticism of Barack Obama quite so seriously. He may not be clear on where he got the money from for his drug consumption, but then again he didn't spend his teenage years stealing federal government property just to provide cash for an end-of-year blowout. (Cue all the libertarians saying - "No, he waited until he was in the whitehouse for that!") Tom PS SOMF won with 20% of the vote? Had you guys never heard of single transferable vote? Maybe my experience was different from going to a politically right-on university the moment I left school. From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 23:16:56 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:16:56 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Manned Spaceflight (Was: future fizzle) In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <45AE375B4CB647AB80DD8191D3619C0A@MyComputer> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 John K Clark : > "Stathis Papaioannou" > >> Most of science, commerce and even military spending is ultimately for >> entertainment purposes, since everything above subsistence is >> entertainment. > > You don't go far enough, by that same criteria one could say that the reason > most people prefer being alive rather than dead is because they fine it more > entertaining. Yes, we make efforts to stay alive so that we can do things that are enjoyable. People want more money and better technology so that they can have more fun. Pure science is done because it's fun, with the potential bonus of an applied science spinoff, but it gets less funding than what we traditionally think of as entertainment because it isn't as popular. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 23:24:02 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:24:02 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 Fred C. Moulton : > > On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 23:18 +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> 2009/6/1 BillK : >> > Good analysis here in the New Yorker magazine: >> > >> >> The article is about overservicing. Medical overservicing is not only >> expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market medicine encourages >> overservicing. > > Whether "Free market medicine" encourages overservicing is a conjecture. > Perhaps correct; perhaps incorrect. ?But since there is not a free > market in medicine in the USA it is difficult to apply that conjecture > to the McAllen situation. ?Since medicine is regulated in the USA you > could more easily make the claim that the current type of regulated > medicine might encourage overservicing in certain areas. ?I said > "current type of regulated medicine" since a different type of > regulation could score differently in the measurements and I said > "might" just to include the possibility that there are other factors not > yet noticed. Even some types of Government-controlled medicine encourage overservicing, where the doctor is payed per patient seen or per procedure rather than being on a salary. This is just part of capitalism: it's understood by everyone that when they walk into a shop, the shopkeeper will try to sell them something, whether they need it or not. There may be other advantages to having private practitioners, but the temptation to overservice has to be taken into consideration. -- Stathis Papaioannou From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 1 23:45:42 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:45:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #1: I'M DYING HERE Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601183728.022bdcc0@satx.rr.com> Calloo callay! I cavort merrily, waving my author copies of Broderick & Barnes' new comic noir crime release from PointBlank Press. But wait--is I'M DYING HERE *really* a *new* release? Well, yes and no. A while back PointBlank did an earlier version with the very Australian and slightly naughty title I SUPPOSE A ROOT'S OUT OF THE QUESTION? Then something peculiar and tragic happened with the distribution, or didn't. An expensive hard cover edition was advertised, but the paperback was never listed at Amazon and similar venues. So the title sank literally without trace. PointBlank went into a sort of retreat for a while, around that time, but recently has bounced back to life. The publisher kindly offered us the chance to rethink our presentation. So we changed the title to some more grabby and understandable by USians, then slightly de-Australianized the vernacular. Not enough to neuter the book, but I think every appearance of "root" has been replaced by a more generally understood term, one sometimes associated with mothers. Anyway, it is now available, for the possible delectation of extropes who might fancy a crime romp complete with camel and Saudi prince. Award winning crime novelist and critic Bill Crider generously provided this quote, which we sampled for the cover line: "I'm Dying Here is one wild ride. It begins with massive destruction, proceeds to Bactrian destruction at warp speed, and then takes a left turn that's not really a turn at all. Through the melee strides Tom Purdue, private-eye, jailbird, feng shui master, and walking disaster. This is a comic, crazy, original crime novel. You won't find another one like it this year, or, more likely, ever." Coming soon: Flagrant Self-Promotions #2 and #3... Damien Broderick From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 23:50:39 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 01:50:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Manned Spaceflight (Was: future fizzle) In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <45AE375B4CB647AB80DD8191D3619C0A@MyComputer> Message-ID: <580930c20906011650t2f704c98u818730738fe9fdcc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > Yes, we make efforts to stay alive so that we can do things that are > enjoyable. People want more money and better technology so that they > can have more fun. Pure science is done because it's fun, with the > potential bonus of an applied science spinoff, ?but it gets less > funding than what we traditionally think of as entertainment because > it isn't as popular. OTOH, this brings up the question of *why* it is not as "popular". Same story as for "market rules", which really do not tell us anything on why and how the demand for given "products" evolve. Ultimately, those things do not depend in the least on some kind of "natural law" which we would have to deal with as an eternal and universal rule, but rather on societal values, which in turns are determined by the cultural norms in place. So, the real issue is, quite trivially, that technoscientific achievements are valued *less* than they used to be simply because societies are drifting away from what might motivate them in this respect, our task being that of resisting, if not of reversing, such trend. -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 2 00:45:55 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:45:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <580930c20906010422y6c7efe6eoc8e13cf17a3662b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20906010422y6c7efe6eoc8e13cf17a3662b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F7C5BF9F67744988FE3E5A4CBBD88A7@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj > Subject: Re: [ExI] future fizzle > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 11:10 PM, spike wrote: > > Tom, these problems are mostly solved by using verrrry tiny humans, > > preferrably a paraplegic. > > Not to mention making long zero gravity trips... short... Stefano, the ISS studies show that most of the physiological damage is done within the first 8 to 10 weeks. > We are not speaking here of vague "breakthrough propulsion > technologies" of the kind that serve to waste a couple > millions NASA budget, but of the engine currently being tried > on the ISS, if I am not mistaken... Stefano Vaj The ion drives are crazy high in specific impulse, but their total thrust is very low, and they don't scale up very effectively. They will be of little use in getting to Mars much faster than the 8 months each way Hohmann transfer orbit. Taking humans to Mars is unlikely to be much less than a four year mission with any readily foreseeable technology. spike From max at maxmore.com Tue Jun 2 00:59:33 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 19:59:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <200906020059.n520xiqi019200@andromeda.ziaspace.com> BillK posted a link to an article: >See: > >Irrational Exuberance >By LOUIS UCHITELLE Published: April 17, 2009 >Look around you, George A. Akerlof and Robert J. Shiller say. I've read a fair number of articles by Shiller, and have thought some of his observations are pretty smart. For instance, see my review of his "New Hope for Old Risks" http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreco.aspx?coid=CO11100311211163 If you're not going to buy his co-authored book, Animal Spirits, he conveys the main ideas in a McKinsey Quarterly article that I reviewed here: http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreco.aspx?coid=CO4170917354457 One point Shiller makes (in a different article) is that if we had had a futures market for mortgages/real estate, investors could have sold mortgage investments short. This would have moderated the rise in house prices (yes, thereby "smoothing out" the market moves). As for the book, Animal Spirits (which I hope to find time to read), I would point to Mark Skousen's comments in his Amazon review: >hree serious mistakes , April 12, 2009 >By M. Skousen "author of 'The Compleated Autobio... (New York, New >York) - >See >all my reviews >(REAL >NAME) >I'm reluctant to criticize Yale's Robert Shiller, who has spoken >highly of my own book "The Big Three in Economics," and who has an >exceptional record in predicting the top of the stock market in 2000 >and the real estate markets in 2006. > >There are some good ideas and details in "Animal Spirits." For >example, I didn't know that Enron abused the new "mark-to-market" >rules established by the SEC to overbook profits (pp. 33-34). > >But I was surprised by the large number of gaffes made in "Animal >Spirits," such as: > >1. The authors failure to include any reference to Milton Friedman >and Anna Schwartz' classic "Monetary History of the United States" >in explaining the cause of the Great Depression in the 1930s. They >adopt an entirely outmoded Keynesian explanation, and make no >reference to the collpase of the money stock during the early 1930s. >As Friedman & Schwartz demonstrate, this monetary collapse was >completely avoidable. > >2. On page 130, Akerlof and Shiller claim, "In the absence of social >security people would grossly undersave." Isn't it just the >opposite? It is BECAUSE of social security that people grossly >undersave, especially poor people who have no surplus left after >shelling out 15% of their paychecks for FICA. In China, where there >is no federal social security system, the Chinese people grossly oversave. > >3. On page 173, Akerlof and Shiller state, "Without intervention by >the government the economy will suffer massive swings in >employment." Again, shouldn't it be just the opposite? It is BECAUSE >of intevention by the government that the economy suffers massive >swings in employment and output. The authors themselves point to >numerous examples in their book where government caused instability >in the marketplace, such as the SEC "mark to market" ruling that >helped Enron overvalue its assets....and Andrew Cuomo, HUD Secretary >under Clinton, who "mandated lending by Fannie and Freddie to >underserved communities....Cuomo forced Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac >to make loans, even if that meant lowering credit standards." (page >155) So who started the subprime lending scandal? The federal >government (HUD and other agencies). > >In short, I question the whole thesis of this book, that "left to >their own devices, capitalist economies will pursue excess....manias >and panics." (preface) I defy the authors to show me an example of >capitalism going haywire without bad government playing a >significant role in the background. Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 2 01:20:39 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:20:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> ...On Behalf Of > Fred C. Moulton > Subject: Re: [ExI] USA Health Costs ... > > The article is about overservicing. Medical overservicing > is not only > > expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market medicine > encourages > > overservicing. > > Whether "Free market medicine" encourages overservicing is a > conjecture. Perhaps correct; perhaps incorrect... Fred Ja. I would lean toward incorrect, or at least not exactly. A bigger driver to overservicing is the threat of lawsuit should the medic miss anything during any office visit. So they just test for everything. Then the bills go thru the roof. The legal system demands overservicing. spike From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jun 2 01:35:47 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:35:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2009, at 6:20 PM, spike wrote: > > ...On Behalf Of >> Fred C. Moulton >> Subject: Re: [ExI] USA Health Costs > ... >>> The article is about overservicing. Medical overservicing >> is not only >>> expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market medicine >> encourages >>> overservicing. >> >> Whether "Free market medicine" encourages overservicing is a >> conjecture. Perhaps correct; perhaps incorrect... Fred > > > Ja. I would lean toward incorrect, or at least not exactly. A bigger > driver to overservicing is the threat of lawsuit should the medic miss > anything during any office visit. So they just test for everything. Actually, they don't. Until I went to an actual longevity clinic a lot of blood tests that would have found my particular problems were never run no matter how much and often I complained to conventional docs. Yes there is some over testing but that is due more to a very broken tort system than to the health industry itself as far as I can tell as you mentioned. One thing that our spending 2x what every other developed country spends on health care does is fund a lot more medical research. Hopefully we can avoid tossing this and other "babies" out with the inefficiency bath water. - samantha From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 02:52:46 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:52:46 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 spike : > Ja. ?I would lean toward incorrect, or at least not exactly. ?A bigger > driver to overservicing is the threat of lawsuit should the medic miss > anything during any office visit. ?So they just test for everything. ?Then > the bills go thru the roof. ?The legal system demands overservicing. So medicine would be the only part of a free market system where they *don't* try to sell you stuff you don't need? -- Stathis Papaioannou From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 2 04:00:00 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:00:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] long breezy story for a friday evening In-Reply-To: <939013.57656.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <939013.57656.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > ... On Behalf Of Tom Nowell > Subject: [ExI] long breezy story for a friday evening > > > Spike, thanks for this very amusing story. It is more > impressive than some of my college misadventures and ranks > alongside some of the finest anecdotes of my more outrageous friends... Outrageous? You are too kind Tom. I have some excellent college misadventures too, but that will be some other leisurely Friday evening. > If I didn't know better (ie hadn't wasted so many hours > watching teen movies in the 90s) I would suggest Spike had > lifted the idea from a movie... Excellent idea. I will see if I can make actual money from this. > After all, the kids interested > in science & engineering go all-out into raising more cash > than the popular girls and stick it to the man by sneaking > into rockets and stealing stuff??... Actually that might have been more exciting had we sneaked in, but it was all done with the proper permissions granted. We had to in any case, for there were several of us working in shifts in plain sight of a very busy highway (US1). I googled to find a close up view, couldn't find one, but I did see this interesting bit. Apparently we young gold miners wrecked the internals of the rocket beyond repair: Rocket Repairs Some local volunteers are repairing the Titan rocket that has sat outside Titusville high school. Update: this effort has failed as the repairs required are beyond the budget. The rocket has been donated to Brevard Community College and is now located at CCAFS where they have an educational facility. > An excuse to use girls in > string bikinis as essential to the plot? A twist in the tale > when the money gets spent on "Sit on my face"? Honestly, > box-office smashes have been written with thinner material than this... Here's one for which the rock and roll experts may be able to help. According to this drummer, (who was not one of the five dancing costumed members) the Village People made an album cover in which a photograph is taken from above of the five costumed band members. They were lying face up on the floor; each band member had his hand in the trousers of the band member to either side. The album cover was too outrageous even for the very open standards of the mid 70s, and so that album cover was redone, but apparently a few were sold. The drummer decided he had had enough of that, so he left the group and formed his own. Those album covers are probably worth a cool fortune. That is the story he told. Don't know if it is true. Anyone every heard such a thing? > I must say though, I can no longer take your criticism of > Barack Obama quite so seriously...Tom Nor do I Tom. I was surprised at how sensitive some of the list members were to what I thought was minor criticism of a president. I don't recall anyone getting so upset for criticism of any of the previous presidents. Hell they expect me to do that. I am critical of all of them. I might even criticize Root if he somehow managed to get elected. Not very much in Root's case, but I would surely find something to bitch about. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 2 04:40:25 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 23:40:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] long breezy story for a friday evening In-Reply-To: References: <939013.57656.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601233340.025eb458@satx.rr.com> At 09:00 PM 6/1/2009 -0700, spike wrote: >I might even >criticize Root if he somehow managed to get elected. Not very much in >Root's case, but I would surely find something to bitch about. Root? I supposed a Root would be entirely out of the question. Damien Broderick [don't frown, USians--that was for the few Aussies on the list. One has to admire Wayne Allyn Root's website slogan: www.rootforamerica.com/ . Some would find any pretext, truth be told.] From max at maxmore.com Tue Jun 2 05:16:58 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:16:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Restructuring executive compensation Message-ID: <200906020517.n525HAQD019106@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Dan Ust wrote: >I'm not sure those swings are endogenous to the market economy. In >fact, there's reason to suspect on a totally free market, there >would be few if any total economy swings, but only localized or at >best secoral ones. I'm not sure either, Dan. However, I'm certainly not sure that they are *not* endemic either. The problem is the currently-human tendency to imitate one another without adequate rational thought. (Just the kind of thing that worries Shiller.) I definitely agree that government intervention has typically made the swings worse. >I'm not as well versed in this area as I'd like to be, but from my >studies the question to ask is why are certain "compensation >schemes" selected? This has not been an area of zero intervention >and seems related not merely to direct interventions in compensation >(e.g., caps on payouts, including the 1993 one you mention*) but >also to the threat of interventions... Here's an example of how government involvement in compensation has led to unintended consequences (did I already mention this?): When the Clinton administration imposed a cap of $1 million on cash payouts to be eligible for corporate tax deductions, many firms shifted compensation to guaranteed bonuses, such as the controversial AIG payouts. Yet, you can be certain that most commentators will reflexively blame market-based decisions for this. >I would only want to see this plan [Dynamic Incentive Accounts] >voluntarily adopted -- and not adopted merely because of either a >legal mandate or the threat of such a mandate. Me too, in case that wasn't clear. Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 05:58:23 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:58:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] long breezy story for a friday evening In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601233340.025eb458@satx.rr.com> References: <939013.57656.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090601233340.025eb458@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670906012258j12de3868wf66b57dceaa674a2@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 09:00 PM 6/1/2009 -0700, spike wrote: > > I might even >> criticize Root if he somehow managed to get elected. Not very much in >> Root's case, but I would surely find something to bitch about. >> > > Root? I supposed a Root would be entirely out of the question. > > Damien Broderick > > [don't frown, USians--that was for the few Aussies on the list. One has to > admire Wayne Allyn Root's website slogan: www.rootforamerica.com/ . Some > would find any pretext, truth be told.] > _______________________________________________ > I suppose root beer is not very popular in Australia. John ; ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 2 06:14:07 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:14:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] long breezy story for a friday evening In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906012258j12de3868wf66b57dceaa674a2@mail.gmail.co m> References: <939013.57656.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090601233340.025eb458@satx.rr.com> <2d6187670906012258j12de3868wf66b57dceaa674a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090602011257.0256acf0@satx.rr.com> At 10:58 PM 6/1/2009 -0700, JG wrote: >I suppose root beer is not very popular in Australia. As has often been noted, these often go together, the latter often preceding the former. Damien Broderick From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 11:09:30 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:09:30 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <86C0EA1A992845FFBFB483FF64255ECD@spike> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <86C0EA1A992845FFBFB483FF64255ECD@spike> Message-ID: <4A25086A.8090704@libero.it> Il 01/06/2009 6.30, spike ha scritto: > Hmmm, I guess that is one of those weird ones like the return of blasphemy > laws. No more blasphemy laws, only "hate crimes" laws. Criticizing a religion is not a freedom, it is a hate crime. Thank to the "progressive" liberals. > We would never have dreamed it was illegal to interfere with a > religion, until one of our own was convicted of it. How weird is that? > Interfering with a religion??? Surely that is one they dreamed up to fit > the situation. What is "interfering with a religion"? Not following it? Disturbing a meeting? Expressing publicly contempt for the religion in question? > Who would have ever dreamed that blasphemy would be illegal in the 21st > century? Why cannot humans seem to rid ourselves of religion memes? Because it is impossible. But, I hope we are able to rid ourselves of the bad religion memes. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 11:11:52 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:11:52 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Manned Spaceflight (Was: future fizzle) In-Reply-To: <580930c20906011650t2f704c98u818730738fe9fdcc@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <45AE375B4CB647AB80DD8191D3619C0A@MyComputer> <580930c20906011650t2f704c98u818730738fe9fdcc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 Stefano Vaj : > So, the real issue is, quite trivially, that technoscientific > achievements are valued *less* than they used to be simply because > societies are drifting away from what might motivate them in this > respect, our task being that of resisting, if not of reversing, such > trend. I suspect you're right, but what evidence is there that technoscientific achievements are valued less than they used to be? -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 11:22:13 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:22:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <8F7C5BF9F67744988FE3E5A4CBBD88A7@spike> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20906010422y6c7efe6eoc8e13cf17a3662b0@mail.gmail.com> <8F7C5BF9F67744988FE3E5A4CBBD88A7@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20906020422p7d504774p8dbcd5ece9cf61cf@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:45 AM, spike wrote: > Stefano, the ISS studies show that most of the physiological damage is done > within the first 8 to 10 weeks. > ... > Taking humans to Mars is unlikely to be much less than a > four year mission with any readily foreseeable technology. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/28/vasimr_plasma_first_stage_test/ According to what is currently tested on the ISS, It would appear we are down to 39 days. And of course there those Russians having spent more or less one year on the Salyut... -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 11:32:32 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:32:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Manned Spaceflight (Was: future fizzle) In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <45AE375B4CB647AB80DD8191D3619C0A@MyComputer> <580930c20906011650t2f704c98u818730738fe9fdcc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906020432g3f6dd92eg7eb54305c197c280@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/6/2 Stefano Vaj : > >> So, the real issue is, quite trivially, that technoscientific >> achievements are valued *less* than they used to be simply because >> societies are drifting away from what might motivate them in this >> respect, our task being that of resisting, if not of reversing, such >> trend. > > I suspect you're right, but what evidence is there that > technoscientific achievements are valued less than they used to be? Mmhhh... Available funding for fundamental research? Relative social status (and/or remuneration) provided by of technoscientific jobs in comparison to other? Prohibitionist or hostile legislation (and campaigning)? Decreased international competition (except perhaps, to a limited extent, for tech with immediate military or security dividends, and even that only in the US)? Diffusion of luddite memes? Allocation of venture capital? Decline in numbers and quality of western technoscientific students? Once again, compare that with the period 1870-1970. Now, if you are really smart, you want to be the CEO of a bank, not Watson or Heisenberg or Darwin or Einstein. -- Stefano Vaj From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 13:02:04 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 08:02:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Brainport In-Reply-To: <7627512c0906020547x585656fesf5811f368a332848@mail.gmail.com> References: <3d57814d0905201818m1bb682d9xee0b97a29e6c37fd@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70905201838tc36f192gdfe119ac66f56d1@mail.gmail.com> <3d57814d0905202226v87c07a8wc259924d32f3857b@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70905210456r6b15b21aue5359633c66886a6@mail.gmail.com> <7730d1c90905211014x2941766n8a3570f9128efe54@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70905211101nee551dfqcb9ec3c14762e461@mail.gmail.com> <7730d1c90905211109n19ddb254jd65a036db68a0cc1@mail.gmail.com> <7627512c0906012106x6486369anf54e6b36e6fa81f2@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70906020417s242e3258kf8509c36c67e784a@mail.gmail.com> <7627512c0906020547x585656fesf5811f368a332848@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906020602v7a629d1ene40a80f0dd448292@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Nathan McCorkle wrote: > I only mentioned a clock cycle because I don't know how our vision system > works... basically I figure if you could control the impulses at each > individual "pixel" nerve ending (I know photoreceptors combine action > potentials with each other so maybe the binding site would be up-nerve of > the photoreceptors). > > The end-goal --- direct video signal transduction into the head, eliminating > conversion to light (which requires a lens, a diffuser, a projector, etc...) On that note, there was some research in 1999 by a guy now at Stanford or Harvard who used giant electrodes directly (mechanically) interfaced to the back of the cat visual cortex to grab videos from the neurons. The cat was anesthetized, and the eyes were focused on a television screen in a black box (to keep outside light, out). From the visual cortex signals, they were able to recover the video images with a lot of fuzziness that they cleaned up with some bayesian filters. So, at least reading can be done. More recently there was a study doing something like this except using fMRI to identify which shape an observer looked at, and last year there was a paper where fMRI was used to predict which word an individual was reading (the news picked this up and called it "mind reading"). Mapping of the human visual cortex using image-guided fMRI http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Mapping%20of%20the%20human%20visual%20cortex%20using%20image-guided%20transcranial%20magnetic%20stimulation.pdf Visual image reconstruction from human brain activity using a combination of multiscale local image decoders http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Visual%20image%20reconstruction%20from%20human%20brain%20activity%20using%20a%20combination%20of%20multiscale%20local%20image%20decoders.pdf I don't think I have a copy of the language-prediction fMRI study, nor a copy of the 1999 study with the cat. Oops. Anyway, one other item of interest might be repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation studies of the visual cortex and geometric hallucinations that arise as a consequence, which could be used to inform you on the nature or structure or wiring of the visual cortex. I suspect that's what the image-based fMRI studies for mapping of the visual cortex is all about. With big bulky coils for rTMS, it's harder to get that high resolution that you're looking for. > I'm thinking that a molecule which could be induced to resonate through the > skin could be used to stimulate each individual "pixel" nerve ending. If the > molecule is cleared from the body quickly (within an hour) I think I would > definitely be a user... take a puff of metallic drugs hook into youtube or > google earth... I think it would be a hit. How would you make sure that those signals get routed to the visual cortex without inducing (or engineering) something like a tactile-to-visual synesthesia? - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 13:02:52 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs Message-ID: <721305.79845.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/6/1 BillK : >> Good analysis here in the New Yorker magazine: >> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all > > The article is about overservicing. Medical overservicing > is not only > expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market medicine > encourages overservicing. How's that?? In this particular case, the article mentions "In 2006, Medicare spent fifteen thousand dollars per enrollee here, almost twice the national average. The income per capita is twelve thousand dollars. In other words, Medicare spends three thousand dollars more per person here than the average person earns."? Is Medicare a free market institution? Anyone grounded in economic theory would expect the price of subsidized whatever to rise -- as, regardless of supply, users of the whatever have their costs redistributed.*? This is, in fact, what we see.? The overservicing arises because people who use the services are not price sensitive anymore.? Were this their money, they might economize better.? (Or they might -- if they truly wanted to be overserviced.) In this particular case, what's happened is, I believe, the subsidized healthcare -- a government intervention -- is being "gamed" to use Bill's term.? The solution to the problem -- if one doesn't want to see overservicing -- is to remove the subsidy.? Some might still prefer higher levels of service (especially those accustomed to it now), but they will then bear the costs of this or, at best, only be able to spread those costs locally (to friends, family, their insurers, or charities wishing to oblige them).? The service providers, too, will either have to change or continue to "overservice" will invite competitors in. Regards, Dan *? Note: the effect won't be immediate, won't be the same everywhere, and might not instantly go away once the subsidy is removed.? Other factors can impinge on using the subsidy -- in much the same way that accepting the dole is not for everyone. From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 13:12:24 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:12:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> Il 31/05/2009 20.14, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Stathis > Papaioannou wrote: >> An Iranian doctor I know told me about sex change operations in >> Iran when I made an assumption about how the patient we were >> discussing, a transsexual, would not have been tolerated in her >> country. In Iran, she explained, patients could have the operation >> if they were diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, using the >> same DSM-IV criteria as are used in Western countries. > In my experience, there is an incredible confusion about Iran legal > and cultural norms, many people assuming that radical Islam there > implies a kind of Saudi-style context. True. I think in Saudi Arabia they don't need to rape a virgin first to execute her > Now, homosexuality is forbidden (even though I do not have any > information as to the reality of its prosecution: see the laws about > adultery or oral sex or witchcraft that a few US states may still > not have abrogated). It is true that the dealt penalty is relatively > frequent, even though a very moderate rate of crimes exist in > comparison with many western countries. It is true that you cannot > book a hotel room with somebody of the opposite sex you are not > married with. http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/231238.php > OTOH, how many people know that you can enter into temporary marriage > agreements, ranging from one day to 99 years? Of course, when you > enter into a marriage of the former duration, you can expect the > officer celebrating it to rotate his eyes, since he knows only too > well your immediate purpose. Divorce is of course applicable even to > marriages of an indefinite duration - even though it may take "up to > a year" (compare that to 3 to 5 in Italy) in legal formalities; and > it carries no social stigma for either spouse. Well, many Mullah make a nice buck selling their services for these type of marriages. In the West a few would be labelled pimps as some of them arrange also other parts of the affair. > Abortion? "Ah, no, abortion is not free, according to Iranian law it > must be administered by a licensed physician" (answer offered with a > straight, albeit slightly embarrassed, face by an Iranian lawyer; > compare that with the requirement to go through a public hospital and > some necessary, humiliating bureaucratic steps in Italy). Something is a sin for a religion and is not for another. I already have quoted the relevant hadit about this. But I imagine that aborts, for not married women, is a bit a problem. Given the harsh penalties for a not married but pregnant woman, I suppose it is natural that abortion is a bit freer than in Italy. If the licensed physician is a bit "negligent" in his bookkeeping, the mullahs spare the problem to stone the woman. A few stoning are good (for their power), too many are dangerous. It is a loophole, I suppose, that exist on purpose. > Stem cells? Where's the problem? An embryo does not even have a soul, > according to a dominant islamic doctrine, until the third or fourth > month of pregnancy. Biotechnology? Genetic engineering? Where does > the Qu'ran says anything against that? This cut both edges. Any religious "innovation" is blasphemous in Islam as it is the final and perfect (not so in Christianity, that have the notion of imperfection and try to improve the understandng of God and all matters). But Islam is mainly interested in orthopraxy, so it try to regulate all aspects of people's lives (followers or infidels alike - Qu'ran is 40% dedicated to infidels as a large part of the hadit). > Evolution: the Bible is actually a part of the islamic holy > scriptures, and muslims tend to be literalists. But they also have > the doctrine of the "corruption of the voice of god" and of the > "newer truth superseding older claims", so that the entire Genesis > is largely discredited, the Qu'ran itself being much more friendly to > evolutionary biology. In fact, the few muslim creationists in > existence are not Iranian at all, but... Turks! The "corruption" is only in the "others" texts, not for theirs. The Qu'ran is the "uncorrupted world of Allah"; any doubts is not welcomed and usually suppressed with prejudice as fast as possible. The "newer truth superseding the old" is only referenced to the suras in the Qu'ran. After the dead of Mohammed, no more new suras, no more newer truths. Than, the "old claims" are not superseded, only kept for times appropriated. Allah word is forever, even if it is self contraddictory. But Allah is a capricious God without need of consistency or claim of. > Alcohol? No prohibitionism in place. You are free to get drunk in the > privacy of your home. Simply, you cannot drink in public places (same > as in the US), or in places which are open to the public, such as > restaurants and bars, on the line of the current trend about tobacco > in the West; and in any event, it is not socially acceptable to get > to a party in an obviously inebriated state. The problem arise when the Basiji show up, uninvited, at private parties where boys and girls mingle and drink. Not islamically correct. http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2007/11/04/41211.html > Women? Why, burkas being unknown there, they have nevertheless to > keep at least a few hair covered in public, as in other countries at > least part of the breasts is required to be, nothing which can > prevent them showing off the creations of their hair stylists, > make-up artists, etc. Like this? http://www.worldisround.com/articles/343042/photo9.html or this? http://www.rottengods.com/2007_08_30_archive.html Unfortunately I'm not able to recover a page with the full set of photos of the event. > Many of them are college students, medicine doctors, managers, > journalists, or candidates in the upcoming presidential elections > (politics being a big deal there, and a passion for a large part of a > population which vote starting at 16 in very high percentage), more > than in Japan or in Korea, for that matter. And they are often around > by themselves, including at night, owing also to the relatively high > security of live Tehran in comparison with other cities of 12 million > people. Given the numbers of prostitutes in Tehran, it is not strange that many young women and men are around at night. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KB24Ak02.html Sex, drugs and Islam By Spengler http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HK21Ak01.html Jihadis and whores By Spengler >> First, prostitution has become a career of choice among educated >> Iranian women. On February 3, the Austrian daily Der Standard >> published the results of two investigations conducted by the Tehran >> police, suppressed by the Iranian media. [1] >> >> "More than 90% of Tehran's prostitutes have passed the university >> entrance exam, according to the results of one study, and more than >> 30% of them are registered at a university or studying," reports Der >> Standard. "The study was assigned to the Tehran Police Department and >> the Ministry of Health, and when the results were tabulated in early >> January no local newspaper dared to so much as mention them." > Having said that, would I live in Iran? Certainly not. But for that > matter I would live even less in many countries which are the > darlings of the western governments... Choices, always choices. -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 13:03:58 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <296945.31767.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 12:19 PM 6/1/2009 -0700, Dan wrote: >> This is how laws work in economics.? And they >> don't, as I've said before, have predictive value in the >> same way, say, chemical laws do -- because there are no >> constant relations in human action -- at least, none we know >> of. > > Unless it's the phases of the moons of Saturn that control > these human action variables, I'd guess that you're pointing > directly to what Stathis and BillK and I mean by > "psychological" components of economic behavior. Whew! Glad > that's resolved. I don't think they and I mean the same thing by economic laws here.? It seems to me, and either can correct me, that they see economic laws as provisional or not laws at all, and reduce economic phenomena to psychology -- hence my subject line.? Earlier, it seemed to me that Stathis was offering up a psychological explanation of the current crisis -- the "animal spirits" of a lot of people suddenly got scared of buying homes.? I actually think that type of explanation (if that does justice to Stathis's position; I believe I might have misinterpreted him here, but he can correct me) is actually wrong and close to useless. What I meant by the lack of "constant relations in human action" was in the example I used: no way to tell beforehand if a 10% decrease in supply will lead to a 5% rise in price.? Instead, economic laws are explanatory -- not predictive.? Attempts to make them predictive must presume some constant relations.? And granted if you torture enough statistical data, you'll find what look like such constants.? (Since Stathis brought up technical analysis, this is kind of a financial version of torturing the data.? And we see in technical analysts getting it right up until they go bust.)? Out of such constants, mainstream economic models are built and recent history shows, to me, the folly of this endeavor.? The models predicted, right up until the market fell, that everything was okay. Many Austrian economists, however, were warning all along the problems of low interest rates and one of their gang, Frank Shostak, had the dubious distinct of "predicting" the week of the collapse. All of this is not -- and perhaps I've gone too far in stressing economic laws here -- to say psychology plays no role in markets.? It does, but it doesn't play the kind of explanatory role that Keynesians and psychology of markets explanations would have us believe.? (Add to this the Oedipus Effect: if someone found out that people in markets have a certain psychological tendency, someone might exploit that, making it costly to evince that tendency, and, perhaps, ultimately quashing it.) Regards, Dan From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:06:04 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:06:04 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <721305.79845.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <721305.79845.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 : > > --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> 2009/6/1 BillK : >>> Good analysis here in the New Yorker magazine: >>> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all >> >> The article is about overservicing. Medical overservicing >> is not only >> expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market medicine >> encourages overservicing. > > How's that?? In this particular case, the article mentions "In 2006, Medicare spent fifteen thousand dollars per enrollee here, almost twice the national average. The income per capita is twelve thousand dollars. In other words, Medicare spends three thousand dollars more per person here than the average person earns."? Is Medicare a free market institution? Medicare in the US still encourages doctors to overservice, since they are paid per patient or per procedure. This stands in contrast to salaried doctors, who have no incentive to overservice (if anything, the opposite). In countries that have Medicare-like health schemes, where the government insurer pays private practitioners, the idea is to (a) make insurance universal and (b) make insurance and hence health costs cheaper by reducing the administrative overheads, increasing bargaining power eg. when dealing with drug companies, and promoting preventive health measures in everyone rather than waiting for for the uninsured to get sick enough to be treated in emergency departments. > Anyone grounded in economic theory would expect the price of subsidized whatever to rise -- as, regardless of supply, users of the whatever have their costs redistributed.*? This is, in fact, what we see.? The overservicing arises because people who use the services are not price sensitive anymore.? Were this their money, they might economize better.? (Or they might -- if they truly wanted to be overserviced.) Doesn't this also apply to private health insurance, or any other type of insurance? The insured pays their premiums then gets the service "free", so is tempted to get as much out of it as possible. In practice, this is stopped by the insurer only paying for medically appropriate treatment, whether the insurer is privately or government owned. > In this particular case, what's happened is, I believe, the subsidized healthcare -- a government intervention -- is being "gamed" to use Bill's term.? The solution to the problem -- if one doesn't want to see overservicing -- is to remove the subsidy.? Some might still prefer higher levels of service (especially those accustomed to it now), but they will then bear the costs of this or, at best, only be able to spread those costs locally (to friends, family, their insurers, or charities wishing to oblige them).? The service providers, too, will either have to change or continue to "overservice" will invite competitors in. I don't see why I'd be more tempted to "game" the government service than a private service. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:10:47 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:10:47 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 painlord2k at libero.it : > Il 31/05/2009 20.14, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: >> Now, homosexuality is forbidden (even though I do not have any >> information as to the reality of its prosecution: see the laws about >> ?adultery or oral sex or witchcraft that ?a few US states may still >> not have abrogated). It is true that the dealt penalty is relatively >> ?frequent, even though a very moderate rate of crimes exist in >> comparison with many western countries. It is true that you cannot >> book a hotel room with somebody of the opposite sex you are not >> married with. > > http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/231238.php So what's your view about imprisoning or executing homosexuals in Western countries? -- Stathis Papaioannou From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 14:07:11 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs Message-ID: <809940.42356.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/6/2 Fred C. Moulton : >> On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 23:18 +1000, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: >>> 2009/6/1 BillK : >>>> Good analysis here in the New Yorker > magazine: >>>> >>> >>> The article is about overservicing. Medical >>> overservicing is not only >>> expensive, it can also be dangerous. Free market >>> medicine encourages >>> overservicing. >> >> Whether "Free market medicine" encourages >> overservicing is a conjecture. >> Perhaps correct; perhaps incorrect. Well, to know what overservicing is, we would have to have an objective standard of what is the correct level of service. Without this, all of this is conjecture. That said, though, it appears to me that the higher use of medical services in the article has more to do with the government subsidizing medical care -- and not with the market itself. As I've said before, subsidizing anything leads to more demanding it _because_, all else being equal, their costs for it are lower (since their costs are not partly or wholely provided by someone else -- here: the taxpayers). >>?But since there >> is not a free >> market in medicine in the USA it is difficult to apply >> that conjecture >> to the McAllen situation. ?Since medicine is >> regulated in the USA you >> could more easily make the claim that the current type >> of regulated >> medicine might encourage overservicing in certain >> areas. ?I said >> "current type of regulated medicine" since a different >> type of >> regulation could score differently in the measurements >> and I said >> "might" just to include the possibility that there are >> other factors not yet noticed. > > Even some types of Government-controlled medicine > encourage > overservicing, where the doctor is payed per patient seen > or per > procedure rather than being on a salary. Again, we would need an objective way to measure the correct level of service. > This is just part of > capitalism: it's understood by everyone that when they walk > into a > shop, the shopkeeper will try to sell them something, > whether they > need it or not. There may be other advantages to having > private > practitioners, but the temptation to overservice has to be > taken into consideration. I agree, but the problem is easily resolved in market excahnges by the buyer having an incentive not to be overserviced -- specifically, the buyer will have more money (or other resources) to devote to her or his other wants. When the buyer is no longer price sensitive -- as in when the cost is subsidized -- then expect the seller to pile on more. Regards, Dan From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 14:37:10 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:37:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <791670.45120.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A2148BC.4030509@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A253916.2070703@libero.it> Il 01/06/2009 22.20, BillK ha scritto: > Look around you, George A. Akerlof and Robert J. Shiller say. The > second coming of the Great Depression is, like the original, a direct > result of animal spirits. If only we had factored those turbulent > emotions into economic theory, we might not be repeating the earlier > tragedy. So, if you are right, what is the solution of the problem about the "animal spirit"? Chain them? By who? Another human, that could be subjected to the same "animal spirit" problem? What is "animal spirit"? Something like "malaria" ("bad air" in Italian). Because we know that it is caused by the air, not the germ and the mosquito. Or maybe the influence of Saturn? Nope, that is the Black Death. > There was nothing rational, well ?informed or unemotional about the > behavior that has all but collapsed the economy. That leaves most of > America?s economists without a believable framework for explaining how > we got into this mess. Akerlof and Shiller are the first to try to > rework economic theory for our times. The effort itself makes their > book a milestone. They are dusting off the rotten body of Keynes and call it "rework economy theory for our times"? What is next time? Communism? Feudalism? Tribalism? Philosopher-Kings? The latter we have in Venice, now. Don't work as claimed. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 14:48:35 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <683195.12589.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/30/09, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > Il 30/05/2009 4.50, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: >> The law of supply and demand is an emergent phenomenon >> supervening on >> social psychology. The supply-demand curve would be >> affected if people >> prefer to buy more of a product if it is more >> expensive, for example. > > Where do you see this happen? > I never saw this happen in 40 years of my life. This is not exactly what happens.? People may demand something based on its price -- as with status symbols (status symbols are often valued because of their exclusivity; higher price makes them more exclusive and they show off that the buyer can afford them) or when people conflate quality and price (the usual notion that lower price means lower quality, higher price, higher quality).? This is NOT, however, in contradiction to the Law of Supply and Demand.? The case simply means that the demand is affected by the price (or, more precisely, indirectly via whatever the price is used as a proxy for, such as exclusivity or quality). > When will be have phycology of physics explanations? > For example, if people believed that air planes don't work, > there would not be air planes flying, so the laws of > aerodynamics could be told to not work, because air planes > can not fly if people don't believe they will fly. > > The supply-demand curve work perfectly with rational > agents. I disagree.? The law applies to all agents.? The use of rational by mainstream economists assumes certain specific behaviors -- usually where the economist assumes a certain set of values/traits, such as money profit maximizaton*, and then constructs models based on agents with these properties.? These models, notably, rarely map onto the real world because real world actors don't have these traits or have them mixed with other traits.? E.g., people don't choose jobs, as economic rational actors would based soley on salary.? Many people, in fact, choose a lower salary job because, e.g., they like the mission, the colleagues, or the work environment.? Think of how many people choose to work on Broadway versus Wall Street.? It isn't because working on Broadway showers you in riches. (This is in contradistinction to the use of "rational" by Mises and Rothbard.? Their use in this context is not to describe someone as following the rules of logic, but rather as someone who acts purposefully.? In this sense, all agents in a market are rational: they are all acting to advance their goals.? As economists, we cannot judge their goals, but only explain their actions in terms of them.) > Irrational agents will be weeded out of the market as unfit > (they will pay more than needed and ask less than needed) > Any explanation that say the supply-demand curve is due > only to psychological causes require that ALL agents must be > always irrational (a market of fools). > A single rational agent would gain more than all the others > and would control the market given enough time. Agents that > are partially rational would have a success proportional to > their rationality. I think it'd be better to put this in terms of economization: given a set of ends and limited means to achieve them -- specifically, where the means are limited so that not all ends can be achieved -- there are more or less economizing ways of achieving them.? Some agents will be better and some worse at this in real world cases. This would simply result in some being better at achieiving their ends -- achieving more of them or achieving them with less effort or some mix of the two. Regards, Dan *? People do expect to profit from their actions; this is why they act in the first place.? This goes without saying -- and this covers all actions.? But the sort of profit motive underlying all action is a pure betterment -- not whether the action results in more money.? The person who gives money to charity is expecting a profit -- a betterment in her conditions from a condition where the object of her charity is not so well off to one where the object is better off -- just as is a person executing an asset trade or making a sandwich.? And this is something that can't be empirically contradicted. From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:45:05 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:45:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <296945.31767.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <296945.31767.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 : [It annoys me that gmail doesn't automatically add "wrote" when I reply to emails. Does anyone know how to change this?] > I don't think they and I mean the same thing by economic laws here.? It seems to me, and either can correct me, that they see economic laws as provisional or not laws at all, and reduce economic phenomena to psychology -- hence my subject line. Yes, and I don't see how this could be a point of contention. Economics *must* supervene on the interaction between human behaviour and the physical environment, just as the mind *must* supervene on brain processes, unless you believe there in a magical spirit that animates the mind or the economy. > Earlier, it seemed to me that Stathis was offering up a psychological explanation of the current crisis -- the "animal spirits" of a lot of people suddenly got scared of buying homes.? I actually think that type of explanation (if that does justice to Stathis's position; I believe I might have misinterpreted him here, but he can correct me) is actually wrong and close to useless. You can come up with a deeper explanation, such as an excess of liquidity causing asset price inflation, but in the end it is still peoples' reaction to the excess liquidity (or whatever it is) that drives the economy. An analogy from physics might help illustrate my point. We know that there are billions of gas molecules all jostling each other in an extremely complex way, but the relationship between pressure and volume for the gas as a whole can be approximated by the very simple Boyle's Law, PV=k. But we know that Boyle's Law *must* be due to the complex behaviour of the individual molecules, even if it's useless or impossible to try to follow those individual molecules in order to try to predict the behaviour of the gas. -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 15:28:11 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:28:11 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <683195.12589.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <683195.12589.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A25450B.5030507@libero.it> Il 02/06/2009 16.48, dan_ust at yahoo.com ha scritto: > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, painlord2k at libero.it > wrote: >> When will be have psychology of physics explanations? For example, >> if people believed that air planes don't work, there would not be >> air planes flying, so the laws of aerodynamics could be told to not >> work, because air planes can not fly if people don't believe they >> will fly. >> The supply-demand curve work perfectly with rational agents. > I disagree. The law applies to all agents. I agree with you. > (This is in contradistinction to the use of "rational" by Mises and > Rothbard. Their use in this context is not to describe someone as > following the rules of logic, but rather as someone who acts > purposefully. In this sense, all agents in a market are rational: > they are all acting to advance their goals. As economists, we cannot > judge their goals, but only explain their actions in terms of them.) Exactly. If they have goals and they act purposely to realize them, they are "rational". My take is that agents without purpose or unable to act purposely to realize them are "irrational". They have not any priority in their goal, if they have goal. In this, they are simply random machine. What I was criticizing is the concept expressed that psychology can govern directly the outcome of the market, when it can indirectly govern (at best) the interpretation of the data gathered and the goals chosen. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 17:07:40 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:07:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/2 painlord2k at libero.it : > Like this? > http://www.worldisround.com/articles/343042/photo9.html Why, I have seen much sexier than that... :-) > http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KB24Ak02.html > Sex, drugs and Islam By Spengler > > http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HK21Ak01.html > Jihadis and whores By Spengler How comes one gets the impression that for this journalist Iranians cannot really do it right? They make too many children (in fact, the traces of at least a past baby boom during the republican period can be seen in the very low age of people around, something which we have not been used to for decades in Europe...)? "Primitives". They stop and adopt birth control (something which does not pose any kind of religious issue to them)? "Iran is dying". The whoring class is composed by hungry peasants? "How desperate and sad". By middle-class, educated women seeking an extra buck on the side and a cheap thrill? "How decadent". No sex, drugs and rock'n'roll? "Repressed". Plenty of it? "Hypocrite, immoral beasts". :-) One point where I believe he has it right is that Amahdinejad is a *political* radical, not especially strict from a religious point of view. In that sense, In the US he would be more easily compared to a neocon than to a leader of the Christian Right. :-) But my real point is that I would not find it particularly strange if we ever ended up having a few Iranian transhumanists on this list, probably not more or less at odd with their government than the rest of us may be with our own; and we might even discover that we have had in fact more bizarre things than that in transhumanist ranks... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 2 17:55:14 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:55:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.co m> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> I haven't been reading this thread very closely, but I don't think anyone has yet pointed out how absurd it would be to "treat" same-sex desire with transgender operations (except in a few cases). For an XY to desire sex with an XY obviously does NOT require him to wish to be a woman, let alone to want to have sex with an XY who has been surgically reassigned. Indeed, two transgendered male=>female humans I know of are in same-sex relationships; each considered himself really a woman when he was male, and had his body rejigged to conform to that self-image; now she continues to desire other women, and by definition is therefore a lesbian. The helpful Iranian Muslims might have some problems with that reality. This Procrustean nonsense seems to go back to the primitive parody that gay men are "fairies" with limp wrists and high-pitched girlish voices. My impression is that these days muscular tough gay men outnumber their effete brethren, and that in any case most gay men are indistinguishable from straight men. Why would they want to switch genders? My guess is that rather few gays yearn to have vulvas or breasts; they seem quite happy with the equipment and other secondary characteristics they have by nature. If I'm wrong about any of this, I hope the gays and transgendered on the list will speak up. Damien Broderick From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 18:23:39 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <351833.48884.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> I don't think they and I mean the same thing by >> economic laws here. It seems to me, and either can correct >> me, that they see economic laws as provisional or not laws >> at all, and reduce economic phenomena to psychology -- hence >> my subject line. > > Yes, and I don't see how this could be a point of > contention. > Economics *must* supervene on the interaction between human > behaviour > and the physical environment, just as the mind *must* > supervene on > brain processes, unless you believe there in a magical > spirit that animates the mind or the economy. I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Would you explain what you mean by economics supervening? >> Earlier, it seemed to me that Stathis was offering up >> a psychological explanation of the current crisis -- the >> "animal spirits" of a lot of people suddenly got scared of >> buying homes. I actually think that type of explanation >> (if that does justice to Stathis's position; I believe I >> might have misinterpreted him here, but he can correct me) >> is actually wrong and close to useless. > > You can come up with a deeper explanation, such as an > excess of > liquidity causing asset price inflation, but in the end it > is still > peoples' reaction to the excess liquidity (or whatever it > is) that drives the economy. Here's where economics comes in handy. As a general rule, when people have more of any good -- including money -- they are able to satisfy more wants that that good is useful toward satisfying. E.g., imagine the classic case of a man on an island with five sacks of grain. Let's say he has all sorts of wants -- including to eat bread during the current season, to plant for the next season, to feed chickens so he can have eggs, to ferment some of it to make beer, to feed cows for milk and cheese, and so forth. Let's say he can use one sack to satisfy each of these desires. If has more grain, he can do even more -- up to the point where he has so much that grain is no longer an economic good. (That means not that there's an infinite supply of it, but that he's exhausted all that grain will do for him.) As long as grain is an economic good, more of it will be better -- because it satisfies more wants and less will be worse because he will not only satisfy less wants but forced to choose between which wants to satisfy (e.g., the grain he uses to feed chickens can't be used for bread or to feed cows). In fact, the Law of Marginal Utility states that he will, if he's forced to economize -- i.e., has more wants than can be satisfied with his means -- he will drop the least desired ends first. In this case, and this is the classic example, let's say one sack is destroyed -- maybe a wild board breaks in and eats it while he's out getting sun. Now, he's forced to give up one of his desires -- maybe he'll (as irrational as it might seem to some) judge beer to less valuable than having milk, cheese, eggs, bread now, and a harvest next year. Or maybe he'll give up bread now. This depends on his hierarchy values at the time he makes the choice. Now you might say that if he changes his wants -- the psychological angle? -- then all of this changes. Granted, but that doesn't annul economic laws. In this example, I even mentioned that when a sack is destroyed, he no longer has the luxury of five ends. He must choose four (or less) of the five. Psychology might tell us why he chooses to drop beer or to drop eggs or drop whatever (or adopt a totally different set of ends), but the Law of Marginal Utility tells us he will drop whatever he values the least of the five. (This would apply too if this lone grain user viewed grain as a status symbol or something like that. In that case, he would have a scale of values where status figured in -- maybe knocking out other items from the list. Imagine, e.g., he wants to show off that he has ten sacks of grain in storage and still needs five to satisfy his other wants -- beer, bread, feeding livestock, etc. If he loses one sack, he must then decide what must go in his value scale. He might decide that status isn't that important -- and let's say it matters having ten sacks for status; nine won't cut it -- and suddenly he's awash with nine extra sacks of grain. Or he might decide status is so important that he gives up (again, as blatantly irrational as it might seem to some) beer to keep the ten grain status symbol.) > An analogy from physics might help illustrate my point. We > know that > there are billions of gas molecules all jostling each other > in an > extremely complex way, but the relationship between > pressure and > volume for the gas as a whole can be approximated by the > very simple > Boyle's Law, PV=k. But we know that Boyle's Law *must* be > due to the > complex behaviour of the individual molecules, even if it's > useless or > impossible to try to follow those individual molecules in > order to try > to predict the behaviour of the gas. I think you're getting at economic laws being statistical averages. I disagree. The Law of Marginal Utility apply even when there's just one person involved -- as noted from my example of using just one person and one means (grain). That said, things do get complicated very fast when you have many people with different values scales interacting, but the same Law that applies to one person applies to many. Economic laws of the praxeological sort are bottom up: they describe individual action. The sort of statistical generalizations are, at best, clues to economic laws, but more usually they are just statistical generalizations that fail when conditions change. (On the latter, think of the Phillips curve and its failure to predict stagflation.) Regards, Dan From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 18:24:37 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <614416.8070.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/2/09, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: >>> The supply-demand curve work perfectly with >>> rational agents. > >> I disagree. The law applies to all agents. > > I agree with you. I also meant to add -- and hope you'll agree - -that the supply-demand curve is a didactic tool and an idealization. All we can know in the real world is the actual price; the rest is theoretical conjecture. Such conjectures can be more or less helpful, but I don't think there's a means of proving them in any consistent way. (This doesn't mean the Law is just a conjecture, but that the particular curves are.) >> (This is in contradistinction to the use of "rational" >> by Mises and >> Rothbard. Their use in this context is not to >> describe someone as >> following the rules of logic, but rather as someone >> who acts >> purposefully. In this sense, all agents in a >> market are rational: >> they are all acting to advance their goals. As >> economists, we cannot >> judge their goals, but only explain their actions in >> terms of them.) > > Exactly. If they have goals and they act purposely to > realize them, they are "rational". Yes, though it seemed from your usage that you were calling irrational certain goals or values. Economics can't judge goals or values. > My take is that agents > without purpose or unable to act purposely to realize them > are "irrational". Yes, but we usually don't see that. We see people acting for goals -- goals which we might not completely know or they might completely articulate... And these goals might clash between people or within the same person. But actual actions can't clash per se. This is why, e.g., the goal of saving some (for tomorrow) and of consuming all today can clash, but the action can't: one can't eat one's cake and have it too. (And this applies to the example of inflation: inflation creates the perception that one can both consume more and invest more. This perception, however, doesn't match the actual amount of goods and services available or likely to be available.) > They have not any priority in their goal, if they have > goal. In this, they are simply random machine. See above. I think very few people would fit that model. > What I was criticizing is the concept expressed that > psychology can govern directly the outcome of the market, > when it can indirectly govern (at best) the interpretation > of the data gathered and the goals chosen. Well, it can govern the demand side -- as when people might demand a good for one reason and not another or they change their demand for something. On the latter, think of how someone might want a designer shirt -- that's his goal -- but suddenly, when finding other people in his circle already have it, no longer wants it. Psychology might provide insights into why this is so. But from an economic standpoint, this is merely a change in demand. Why it happens is not really germain to the Law of Supply and Demand -- nor do such changes nullify that law. With my subject line, too, I was trying to hint that psychological explanations of the crisis -- "animal spirits" -- don't explain anything. Why did the animal spirits shift in 2008 and not in 2007 or 2009? Why in 1929 and two years earlier or ten years later? Why, too, did the downturn in 1920 not lead to a decade long depression, while the downturn in 1928-9 did? Animal spirits and similar explanations -- greed, for instance -- don't really stand up to this criticism -- at least, not without adding more auxiliary hypotheses. I feel forced to add, too, that mainstream economics suffers from making predictions that fail mainly because it makes assumptions that are unrealistic -- like perfect competition, completely liquid assets markets, instantaneous adjustments, actors who all behave the same and are aware of the same opportunities, general equilibrium.* (Often too critics of mainstream economics believe that whiule real world markets are imperfect in so many ways that somehow economic theorists and policy makers can will away these imperfections -- that theorists and planners will somehow do better at choosing the best prices, the rights quantities and qualities of goods and services, make the correct investments, and so forth.) A lot of market psychology arguments seem to me to be merely accepting that economics must make these ridiculous assumptions and then trying to patch them up with explanations of why the assumptions fail -- as opposed to just throwing out the assumptions. Regards, Dan * Why this is so is a bit topic and I don't think I can weigh in with much scholarship on this. From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 18:35:37 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <111667.67390.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > I haven't been reading this thread > very closely, but I don't think anyone has yet pointed out > how absurd it would be to "treat" same-sex desire with > transgender operations (except in a few cases). > > For an XY to desire sex with an XY obviously does NOT > require him to wish to be a woman, let alone to want to have > sex with an XY who has been surgically reassigned. Indeed, > two transgendered male=>female humans I know of are in > same-sex relationships; each considered himself really a > woman when he was male, and had his body rejigged to conform > to that self-image; now she continues to desire other women, > and by definition is therefore a lesbian. The helpful > Iranian Muslims might have some problems with that reality. > > This Procrustean nonsense seems to go back to the primitive > parody that gay men are "fairies" with limp wrists and > high-pitched girlish voices. My impression is that these > days muscular tough gay men outnumber their effete brethren, > and that in any case most gay men are indistinguishable from > straight men. Why would they want to switch genders? My > guess is that rather few gays yearn to have vulvas or > breasts; they seem quite happy with the equipment and other > secondary characteristics they have by nature. > > If I'm wrong about any of this, I hope the gays and > transgendered on the list will speak up. I think some do, but most don't. At least, that's my experience. A close friend and former lover, for instance, told me he never had any desire to become a woman. (Of course, were thee changes temporary, uncoerced, and relatively low cost and relative pain free, I imagine lots of people would try them -- including people normally classed as straight.) Regards, Dan From pjmanney at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 18:40:50 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:40:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <29666bf30906021140l71e27671tb09af669731fd138@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > I haven't been reading this thread very closely, but I don't think anyone > has yet pointed out how absurd it would be to "treat" same-sex desire with > transgender operations (except in a few cases). http://www.theonion.com/content/video/conservatives_warn_quick_sex PJ From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 19:38:43 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:38:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > I haven't been reading this thread very closely, but I don't think anyone > has yet pointed out how absurd it would be to "treat" same-sex desire with > transgender operations (except in a few cases). > Not to mention in the event of bisexuals, or of male/male and female/female gays with a perfectly standard gender orientation. But the real point is: are Iranians actually speaking of homosexuals or rather of transgender individuals? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 20:12:27 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:12:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] DARPA killer AI robots to 'participate in own construction' Message-ID: <580930c20906021312y4ef606a5x882a0a53afd45f19@mail.gmail.com> <, 2nd June 2009 15:23 GMT You've got your robots which can make copies of themselves, of course. That's pretty scary - a runaway exponentially-multiplying machine horde, potentially able to overrun the human race in an eyeblink. But how much more scary would it be if you had a machine which could not only make copies of itself once complete, but could also *participate in its own construction while it was still being built*? Really quite a lot more scary, we say here on the *Reg* mechanoid-armageddon desk. That's why we would never be suitable for employment at DARPA, the famed US military tech bureau where they care not what deadly man-eating monster worm plagues may be unleashed during tests of a new laser-powered can opener. Yes, it's true. DARPA have now expanded somewhat on their intention to initiate a programme called Self-Explanation Learning Framework (SELF), which they explain thus: DARPA seeks to construct systems that can participate in their own construction... The system might know the requirements for various tasks in its repertoire, and it may try to perform those tasks to verify functionality. We particularly liked that last bit. One should bear in mind that Dr Mike Cox of DARPA has already saidthat SELF could be placed in charge "in the near term" of heavily armoured, hideously beweaponed main battle tanks or strike planes laden with blockbuster bombs. "Tasks in its repertoire", then, might include "destroy all moving objects within 100 miles not designated as 'friendly'" or "mount an immediate armoured assault on Beijing, regardless of nuclear response". The prospect of the software unilaterally "trying to perform those tasks to verify functionality" doesn't seem reassuring. In any case, it seems plain that building a system focused on "high-level cognition" which can "participate in its own construction" will be fraught with difficulty. You might have a notion of what you'd like it to be, but it will have its own ideas. By definition, one would have no firm picture of just what would be unleashed upon an unsuspecting world at the end of the construction process - but you would know that it'd be potentially able to make more of itself, or indeed repair itself if it got damaged. It might also be rather difficult to stop the process of building the SELF, once it had advanced beyond a certain point. Frankly the only way to be sure it can be stopped would seem to be to stop it now. But that's not the plan. Dr Cox and his DARPA chums are holding an industry day for those interested in building starting the building of SELF. The details are here in a pdf, and a website is given where attendees can make known their "special needs" (for instance supervised day release from the Asylum for Troubled Scientists). >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/02/darpa_self_industry_day/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 20:32:24 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:32:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <296945.31767.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A258C58.8090501@libero.it> Il 02/06/2009 16.45, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/2: > > [It annoys me that gmail doesn't automatically add "wrote" when I > reply to emails. Does anyone know how to change this?] > >> I don't think they and I mean the same thing by economic laws >> here. It seems to me, and either can correct me, that they see >> economic laws as provisional or not laws at all, and reduce >> economic phenomena to psychology -- hence my subject line. > > Yes, and I don't see how this could be a point of contention. > Economics *must* supervene on the interaction between human behaviour > and the physical environment, just as the mind *must* supervene on > brain processes, unless you believe there in a magical spirit that > animates the mind or the economy. Do you consider logic a "magical spirits"? And, not "human behaviour" but "purposeful human behaviour". > You can come up with a deeper explanation, such as an excess of > liquidity causing asset price inflation, but in the end it is still > peoples' reaction to the excess liquidity (or whatever it is) that > drives the economy. What is the rational reaction for the single individual to lower paper-money interest rates? Consume more now, save less for tomorrow, take a loan, pay later. This because money is valued more now than will be valued in the future. But if all do so, there is a disconnection between the resources saved/invested and the resources consumed in all the system. Then, in the future, there will not be enough resources saved to continue to consume. Then the consumes will reduce. A feather will feel the gravity whatever the atmosphere will be. It could go down like a brick (on the Moon), it could fall gently on Earth atmosphere if there is no wind, or it could fly away if there is wind (until the wind cease). But the gravity is there, it is not suspended when it fly under the influence of the wind. It will always pull the feather down. > An analogy from physics might help illustrate my point. We know that > there are billions of gas molecules all jostling each other in an > extremely complex way, but the relationship between pressure and > volume for the gas as a whole can be approximated by the very simple > Boyle's Law, PV=k. But we know that Boyle's Law *must* be due to the > complex behaviour of the individual molecules, even if it's useless > or impossible to try to follow those individual molecules in order > to try to predict the behaviour of the gas. I remember it was PV=kT. The relation between molecules and their container could be very complex, indeed. But if you raise the temperature, the pressure will raise. No animal spirits on these molecules to explain because they hit harder the container or blow it up. Only higher temperature. In the same way, there is no need of an animal spirit to explain because consumers prefer to take more loans, consume more and save less when interests rates are low. They are doing what is rational given the data they have at hand. Do you ever read the first chapter or two of Man, Economy and State of Rothbard? It is free to read at Mises.org (PDF) > THE DISTINCTIVE AND CRUCIAL FEATURE in the study of man is the > concept of action. Human action is defined simply as purposeful > behavior. It is therefore sharply distinguishable from those observed > movements which, from the point of view of man, are not purposeful. > These include all the observed movements of inorganic matter and > those types of human behavior that are purely reflex, that are simply > involuntary responses to certain stimuli. Human action, on the other > hand, can be meaningfully interpreted by other men, for it is > governed by a certain purpose that the actor has in view.2 The > purpose of a man?s act is his end; the desire to achieve this end is > the man?s motive for instituting the action. All human beings act by > virtue of their existence and their nature as human beings.3 We could > not conceive of human beings who do not act purposefully, who have no > ends in view that they desire and attempt to attain. Things that did > not act, that did not behave purposefully, would no longer be > classified as human. It is this fundamental truth?this axiom of human > action? that forms the key to our study. The entire realm of > praxeology and its best developed subdivision, economics, is based on > an analysis of the necessary logical implications of this concept.4 > The fact that men act by virtue of their being human is indisputable > and incontrovertible. To assume the contrary would be an absurdity. > The contrary?the absence of motivated behavior? would apply only to > plants and inorganic matter.5 Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From sparge at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 20:33:34 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:33:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] DARPA killer AI robots to 'participate in own construction' In-Reply-To: <580930c20906021312y4ef606a5x882a0a53afd45f19@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20906021312y4ef606a5x882a0a53afd45f19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 Stefano Vaj : > > You've got your robots which can make copies of themselves, of course. > That's pretty scary - a runaway exponentially-multiplying machine horde, > potentially able to overrun the human race in an eyeblink. But how much more > scary would it be if you had a machine which could not only make copies of > itself once complete, but could also participate in its own construction > while it was still being built? Not at all. I don't see the threat. > DARPA seeks to construct systems that can participate in their own > construction... The system might know the requirements for various tasks in > its repertoire, and it may try to perform those tasks to verify > functionality. Key word being "may". > "Tasks in its repertoire", then, might include "destroy all moving objects > within 100 miles not designated as 'friendly'" or "mount an immediate > armoured assault on Beijing, regardless of nuclear response". The prospect > of the software unilaterally "trying to perform those tasks to verify > functionality" doesn't seem reassuring. The people designing these things aren't idiots, unlike some alarmist reporters who've watched one too many Terminator movie. > In any case, it seems plain that building a system focused on "high-level > cognition" which can "participate in its own construction" will be fraught > with difficulty. You might have a notion of what you'd like it to be, but it > will have its own ideas. By definition, one would have no firm picture of > just what would be unleashed upon an unsuspecting world at the end of the > construction process - but you would know that it'd be potentially able to > make more of itself, or indeed repair itself if it got damaged. No. "Construction" is not "design". These aren't intelligent robots designing themselves, they're appliances that can help bootstrap their construction. -Dave From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 20:36:53 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:36:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: snip >... So the Iranians are on a par with the most enlightened > Western states when it comes to transsexuals, but a few decades behind > when it comes to homosexuals. Let's see, US southerners (religious fundies) despise gays, the US military despises gays, Californian African-Americans despise gays, Mormons despise gays. The Republican elite, when they're not toe-tappin' and playin' Butt Pirates of the Airport Restroom, despise gays. So what were you all saying? Something about somebody being decades ahead of somebody else, regarding respect for gender diversity? Oh yeah, Iran. Bad bad Iran. Bad bad Ayatollahs. Puleeeeese. Best, Jeff Davis "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." George Orwell From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 20:43:43 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! Message-ID: <109699.43633.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:41 PM, > Damien Broderick > wrote: >> Cheney: >> No link >> between Saddam Hussein, 9/11 >> >> CNN - ?20 minutes ago >> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Vice President Dick Cheney >> said Monday that he >> does not believe Saddam Hussein was involved in the >> planning or execution of >> the September 11, 2001, attacks. >> >> wellll... dang! > > Why, isn't that wonderful how US politicians are always > ready to > recognise their own mistakes? :-) >From reading the article, it doesn't appear he's recognizing he made any mistakes anent this issue. (Not defending Cheney; I don't believe he ever publicly blamed Saddam Hussein for the 2001 attacks, but I do believe he and his crew helped to foster the notion that Saddam was connected.) And WW1 was a big mistake, IMO, no matter how you look at it. I wonder if the Austro-Hungarians and their allies (and, heck, at least some of their enemies) knew the outcome if they'd have fought it regardless. Regards, Dan From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 20:55:10 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:55:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2591AE.4000204@libero.it> Il 02/06/2009 16.10, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/2 painlord2k at libero.it: >> Il 31/05/2009 20.14, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > >>> Now, homosexuality is forbidden (even though I do not have any >>> information as to the reality of its prosecution: see the laws about >>> adultery or oral sex or witchcraft that a few US states may still >>> not have abrogated). It is true that the dealt penalty is relatively >>> frequent, even though a very moderate rate of crimes exist in >>> comparison with many western countries. It is true that you cannot >>> book a hotel room with somebody of the opposite sex you are not >>> married with. >> http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/231238.php > So what's your view about imprisoning or executing homosexuals in > Western countries? Mine is that consenting adults are free to do each other what they please in their homes without external interferences. The government or other groups are not entitled to interfere with the private life of individuals. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From sparge at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 21:13:02 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:13:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] future of news media, was RE: autism/vaccination link In-Reply-To: <5672C4AA94084C048EF41B2757B56D86@spike> References: <710b78fc0905312145l576eefc7x9b6fe06d9aa7ba0e@mail.gmail.com> <5672C4AA94084C048EF41B2757B56D86@spike> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:58 AM, spike wrote: > > Ja. ?I still haven't figured out a way for the traditional media to find > some place to exist. ?When newspapers were still relevant, they provided > more than just the news stories. ?They were deciding for us which stories > are important and which were to be relegated or ignored. ?With the internet, > there is no need to control for paper space, since it doesn't actually cost > anything to publish stories. ?There is no editor to decide for us which > stories are important. ?We all become our own editors. Yeah, but how many of are good at it? There's a firehose of information coming at us all the time. How many of us have the time to filter it properly for potentially interesting stories, then perform some kind of validation that the information in them is reliable? Seems like that is a good job for a professional news organization. > ...?Of course, much of what we will see in the news will be > irrelevant junk: the latest blondie to disappear, Hollywood stars > misbehaving and so forth, but that is what sells ad space, so that is what > we get. Seems like another opportunity for a professional news organization. I'd be willing to pay a nominal fee to have to infotainment filtered out. -Dave From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 21:19:04 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:19:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> Il 02/06/2009 21.38, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Damien Broderick > wrote: > > I haven't been reading this thread very closely, but I don't think > anyone has yet pointed out how absurd it would be to "treat" > same-sex desire with transgender operations (except in a few cases). > > > Not to mention in the event of bisexuals, or of male/male and > female/female gays with a perfectly standard gender orientation. > > But the real point is: are Iranians actually speaking of homosexuals or > rather of transgender individuals? They are framing the problem around Islam. There can only be women and men and sex is allowed only between men and women married. Other form are prohibited and must be punished. They consider homosexuality a disorder where the person have the wrong body. They never considered (as would be blasphemous) that there could be different inclinations than the canonical ones. They fix the body problem so the new woman can have legal sex with a man, if he will marry her before. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 2 21:23:35 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:23:35 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A259857.60207@libero.it> Il 02/06/2009 22.36, Jeff Davis ha scritto: > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > snip > >> ... So the Iranians are on a par with the most enlightened >> Western states when it comes to transsexuals, but a few decades behind >> when it comes to homosexuals. > > Let's see, US southerners (religious fundies) despise gays, the US > military despises gays, Californian African-Americans despise gays, > Mormons despise gays. The Republican elite, when they're not > toe-tappin' and playin' Butt Pirates of the Airport Restroom, despise > gays. > > So what were you all saying? Something about somebody being decades > ahead of somebody else, regarding respect for gender diversity? Oh > yeah, Iran. Bad bad Iran. Bad bad Ayatollahs. > > Puleeeeese. The example given don't want kill all homosexual (and the people fornicating out of a religiously sanctioned ceremony and the people doing act against nature - whatever they could be) nor advocate to do so. Don't bother to understand the difference. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 21:45:32 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:45:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] DARPA killer AI robots to 'participate in own construction' In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20906021312y4ef606a5x882a0a53afd45f19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906021445n7c888844i7d47e27989014882@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Dave Sill wrote: >> In any case, it seems plain that building a system focused on "high-level >> cognition" which can "participate in its own construction" will be fraught >> with difficulty. You might have a notion of what you'd like it to be, but it >> will have its own ideas. By definition, one would have no firm picture of >> just what would be unleashed upon an unsuspecting world at the end of the >> construction process - but you would know that it'd be potentially able to >> make more of itself, or indeed repair itself if it got damaged. > > No. "Construction" is not "design". These aren't intelligent robots > designing themselves, they're appliances that can help bootstrap their > construction. I work in the Automated Design Lab at the University of Texas at Austin, and I can confirm that it does not take this "intelligence" thing in order to do design. The algorithms required are hardly anywhere near the complexity of the nonsense that intelligence-enthusiasts have been imagining. Maybe reviewing the Golem project would help? - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 22:00:16 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:00:16 +0200 Subject: [ExI] DARPA killer AI robots to 'participate in own construction' In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20906021312y4ef606a5x882a0a53afd45f19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906021500t62073793lb65330133d1c6950@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > 2009/6/2 Stefano Vaj : > > > > You've got your robots which can make copies of themselves, of course. > > That's pretty scary - a runaway exponentially-multiplying machine horde, > > potentially able to overrun the human race in an eyeblink. But how much > more > > scary would it be if you had a machine which could not only make copies > of > > itself once complete, but could also participate in its own construction > > while it was still being built? > > Not at all. I don't see the threat. Neither do I. Please note that I am just submitting an article - which, BTW, is abundantly ironic... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 22:03:33 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:03:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906021503s64919db7m80892b156041c123@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/2 painlord2k at libero.it > They consider homosexuality a disorder where the person have the wrong > body. The question is: is the confusion affecting the imams, or the journalists commenting the Iranian position? Not a rhetorical question, personally I have no idea. The only thing which is certain is that while Iran may have other religion-related probs, transgenderism does not appear to be one of them... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 2 23:13:38 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:13:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs Message-ID: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Luckily, I have to hand the details of 2008 research into overspending on medicine: A team led by Elliott Fisher of Dartmouth Medical School published a paper in the Annals of Internal Medicine vol 138 p288 comparing medicare outcomes and the headline result was this: "For every 10% of additional medicare spending on hip fracture, colorectal cancer and heart attacks, death rates over 5 years rose by between 0.3 and 1.2 per cent." That's right - the more money gets spent on these 3 common killers of the elderly, the greater the death rates. I remember checking out the website and seeing how they compared big-spending hospitals with smaller hospitals and with big "centre of excellence" hospitals. Over-servicing is here and killing elderly Americans today. As for what the standards should be - I live in the UK, where our colossally centralised health care lends itself to the NICE declaring what treatments are cost-effective and what aren't, but across the world there are professional associations of doctors preparing up recommended guidelines for their members, and also the major medical malpractice insurers circulate their own case studies to inform doctors of mistakes made by their peers. Tom From spike66 at att.net Wed Jun 3 01:08:35 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:08:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek><1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> Message-ID: <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou > Subject: Re: [ExI] USA Health Costs > > 2009/6/2 spike : > > > Ja. ?I would lean toward incorrect, or at least not > exactly. ?A bigger > > driver to overservicing is the threat of lawsuit should the > medic miss > > anything during any office visit. ?So they just test for > everything. ? > > Then the bills go thru the roof. ?The legal system demands > overservicing. > > So medicine would be the only part of a free market system where they > *don't* try to sell you stuff you don't need?... Stathis Papaioannou Hmmm, depends on how one defines the term "need." Do we need airbags in our Detroits? People who have a ton of money might argue that we do, or that they are a good health investment. Others disagree. If one saved money by not having an airbag, perhaps one could afford to move to a neighborhood where she is less likely to be slain by the local thugs for instance. The airbag/slum paradigm is a good way to view the question of the medical establishment overtesting. The doctors have a hell of a difficult job. They must decide on what medical tests are a good value to the patient. If so, do they take into account if the patient has medical insurance? I would think so, for if they recommend an expensive test which offers some (but not a lot) of risk reduction, they may be pricing the patient out of her airbags, or into a more dangerous neighborhood for instance. But if the patient has insurance, then it wouldn't remove their airbags or move them into the poorer more dangerous hoods. Tough question. I am glad I decided against medical school. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Jun 3 01:28:38 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:28:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <580930c20906020422p7d504774p8dbcd5ece9cf61cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com><580930c20906010422y6c7efe6eoc8e13cf17a3662b0@mail.gmail.com><8F7C5BF9F67744988FE3E5A4CBBD88A7@spike> <580930c20906020422p7d504774p8dbcd5ece9cf61cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01590C211C5741CD9DB0607FCEA2E786@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Stefano Vaj > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 4:22 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] future fizzle > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:45 AM, spike wrote: > > Stefano, the ISS studies show that most of the > physiological damage is > > done within the first 8 to 10 weeks. > > ... > > Taking humans to Mars is unlikely to be much less than a four year > > mission with any readily foreseeable technology. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/28/vasimr_plasma_first_st > age_test/ > > According to what is currently tested on the ISS, It would > appear we are down to 39 days. And of course there those > Russians having spent more or less one year on the Salyut... > > -- > Stefano Vaj Stefano, you realize there are two completely different things being discussed here, ja? Most of the article is about the VASIMR, which is a plasma propulsion device. Way down at the bottom is an offhanded comment about a completely different propulsion scheme, which is based on nuclear fission. The nuclear fission device isn't a plasma accelerator, but rather a system that uses fission to heat a traditional propellant to extraordinary temperatures. The big holdup on that is that it still takes chemical rockets to get into orbit, or some laser boost system. Rockets sometimes fail, in which case we run the risk of a buttload of fissionable material raining down upon the hapless proles at home. The anti-nuke crowd goes crazy over taking fissionable material into orbit. To do Mars in 39 days would require a looot of plutonium. spike From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 02:27:22 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:27:22 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/3 painlord2k at libero.it : > They are framing the problem around Islam. > There can only be women and men and sex is allowed only between men and > women married. Other form are prohibited and must be punished. > They consider homosexuality a disorder where the person have the wrong body. > They never considered (as would be blasphemous) that there could be > different inclinations than the canonical ones. They fix the body problem so > the new woman can have legal sex with a man, if he will marry her before. But as discussed, Christianity has had the same taboos, which have been enshrined in laws prohibiting and severely punishing "unnatural" sexual behaviour, same as in the Islamic countries. It's just that the process of secularisation is further advanced in the West. -- Stathis Papaioannou From spike66 at att.net Wed Jun 3 03:35:10 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:35:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis > Subject: Re: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > snip > > >... So the Iranians are on a par with the most enlightened Western > >states when it comes to transsexuals, but a few decades > behind when it comes to homosexuals. > > ...The Republican elite, > when they're not toe-tappin' and playin' Butt Pirates of the > Airport Restroom, despise gays... Indeed sir? Republican former veep Dick Cheney supports gay marriage, whereas the current guy in the whitehouse opposes it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/cheney-offers-his-support_n_209869. html I guess all that stuff cycles around eventually. >...Californian African-Americans despise gays... Best, Jeff Davis That one I do have a hard time explaining. Anyone wish to take a crack at it? spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Jun 3 03:38:53 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:38:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! In-Reply-To: <109699.43633.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <109699.43633.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ... > > > > Why, isn't that wonderful how US politicians are always ready to > > recognise their own mistakes? :-) > > >From reading the article, it doesn't appear he's recognizing he made > >any mistakes anent this issue. (Not defending Cheney; I > don't believe > >he ever publicly blamed Saddam Hussein for the 2001 attacks, > but I do > >believe he and his crew helped to foster the notion that Saddam was > >connected.) > Evidence please? If you can't find any, do ask yourself *why* you believe it. In the mean time, let me suggest George Tenet, former Director of Central Intelligence, fostered that notion. spike From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 05:53:26 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:53:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A259857.60207@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <4A259857.60207@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/2 painlord2k at libero.it : > The example given don't want kill all homosexual (and the people fornicating > out of a religiously sanctioned ceremony and the people doing act against > nature - whatever they could be) nor advocate to do so. > > Don't bother to understand the difference. > > Mirco > Iran is the latest boogieman, and everything in the Western press reflects this and is bullshit. There's an old joke where a guy says to his friend, "I've found a way to tell when that politician is lying." His friend, interest piqued, asks "How?" The friend responds, "Watch him closely, and whenever you see his lips move..." Apply the principal. Whenever you see something about Iran in the Western press, think "lips". Communism was the boogieman that justified the West's(France, US, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, and perhaps others) murder-for-profit of 2-3 milllion Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians, and the conversion of large portion of SE Asia into a mutagenic toxic wasteland slash unexploded ordinance death trap. That's real dead people Mirco, by the millions. Not just some oppressive religious doctrine transformed into an oppressive law, now opportunistically publicized by the current crop of war-mongers to gin up their next murder-for-profit enterprise where the real stacks of real bodies will be Iranian. Among the dead we'll see the "regrettable collateral damage" of blasted "innocent civilians" and of course the righteously dead "enemy": the gay-killing, islamo-fascist, raghead, sand-nigger, wog terrorists who used those poor poor civilians as human shields. Let us all shed a tear. But in private, hey, they're all just ignorant backward would-be terrorist vermin anyway, who hate Israel, so, while borderline regrettable, it's no big deal. And beside those people don't really value human life like we Westerners do. Nowhere in the discussion has anyone offered any data regarding actual numbers of gays executed. I would venture a guess that the real numbers don't come close to the SE Asian death toll. Maybe not even the toll of one wedding party in Afghanistan. Then there's 200,000 more bodies in a Guatemala-turned-slaughterhouse courtesy of the CIA's replacement for a democratically elected governemnt. Ditto El Salvador: 75,000 dead. Ditto Nicaragua: 30,000 dead. This list goes on. Now we have a million plus dead in Iraq; Afghanistan: a work in progress; Pakistan: a burgeoning opportunity; and Iran: a shining dream for the future of high-volume corpse creation. I do know the difference, Mirco. I've a lifetime of witnessing mass murder by the killer elite hirelings of the Gucci and limousine class, and the bullshit justification narrative of their jingo apologist media accomplices. It also bears mentioning -- always bears mentioning -- that the current crop of fundie clerics who run Iran are there courtesy of the CIA, and its odd habit of replacing democracies -- governments of the people(theoretically) -- with nasty but pliant dictators. Dictators who typically -- like the Shah of Iran -- eliminate political rivals via torture and execution, and who are then themselves eliminated by violence and extremism. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Now it's the US's turn. Reality's a bitch. Mirco, we got off on the wrong foot. I'm not who you think I am. Really. Hold off judgment a while. Best, Jeff Davis "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." George Orwell From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 06:03:53 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:03:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:35 PM, spike wrote: >> ...The Republican elite, >> when they're not toe-tappin' and playin' Butt Pirates of the >> Airport Restroom, despise gays... > > Indeed sir? ?Republican former veep Dick Cheney supports gay marriage, Think "lips". > whereas the current guy in the whitehouse opposes it: Think "lips". >>...Californian African-Americans despise gays... Best, Jeff Davis > > That one I do have a hard time explaining. ?Anyone wish to take a > crack at it? "I and the public know, what all school children learn. Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return". W.H. Auden Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 10:02:53 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:02:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <01590C211C5741CD9DB0607FCEA2E786@spike> References: <580930c20906010422y6c7efe6eoc8e13cf17a3662b0@mail.gmail.com> <8F7C5BF9F67744988FE3E5A4CBBD88A7@spike> <580930c20906020422p7d504774p8dbcd5ece9cf61cf@mail.gmail.com> <01590C211C5741CD9DB0607FCEA2E786@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20906030302q2b0b68d9i3b0c2819f6965d20@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:28 AM, spike wrote: > Stefano, you realize there are two completely different things being > discussed here, ja? Yes, all that is crystal clear. Vasimir plasma propulsion may work with solar energy in the ISS, but requires something juicier for a Mars trip. Plenty of information available on the Web in this respect. And we can expect the same reactions we had with the Cassini's flyby. "Of course, we would need a lot more power to effectively use a Vasimr-powered rocket, and solar cells just won?t cut it in deep interplanetary space. So what would we use? A nuclear reactor, of course. We woudln?t need a large one; in fact, the nuclear reactor found on the *Los Angeles* class attack submarine would be the ideal size to power a Vasimr plasma engine. Not surprisingly, Dr. Franklin Chang Diaz, the CEO of Ad Astra and a seven-time Space Shuttle astronaut, agrees that nuclear fission would be the best available solution. His analysis has suggested that a 12-megawatt Vasimr spacecraft could reach Mars in as little as 39 days, a far cry from the nine months it currently takes to send unmanned craft from Earth to the red planet." ** http://www.dan-schulz.com/writing/space-science/nasa-to-test-vasimir-on-space-station.html -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:15:27 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:15:27 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> Message-ID: 2009/6/3 spike : > Hmmm, depends on how one defines the term "need." ?Do we need airbags in our > Detroits? ?People who have a ton of money might argue that we do, or that > they are a good health investment. ?Others disagree. ?If one saved money by > not having an airbag, perhaps one could afford to move to a neighborhood > where she is less likely to be slain by the local thugs for instance. ?The > airbag/slum paradigm is a good way to view the question of the medical > establishment overtesting. Unlike airbags, medical treatments and even tests can have adverse consequences separate from their financial cost. Every treatment has possible complications, and every test has a false positive rate, and may lead to more tests and potentially dangerous procedures. > The doctors have a hell of a difficult job. ?They must decide on what > medical tests are a good value to the patient. ?If so, do they take into > account if the patient has medical insurance? ?I would think so, for if they > recommend an expensive test which offers some (but not a lot) of risk > reduction, they may be pricing the patient out of her airbags, or into a > more dangerous neighborhood for instance. ?But if the patient has insurance, > then it wouldn't remove their airbags or move them into the poorer more > dangerous hoods. ?Tough question. ?I am glad I decided against medical > school. This is the sort of decision doctors make all the time, and there are guidelines based on research for what tests and procedures should be performed in a particular situation. In general, doctors and insurance companies tend to follow these guidelines. A doctor is not supposed to order a completely frivolous test just because the patient wants it, for example, at least not while lying to the insurance company about the test being necessary. Most private doctors I encounter don't overservice, not because they are afraid of the government or the insurance company, but because of a sense of professional ethics. -- Stathis Papaioannou From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 14:03:13 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <930560.31423.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jeff Davis wrote: > 2009/6/2 painlord2k at libero.it : > ? ? ? ? ? > >> The example given don't want kill all homosexual (and >> the people fornicating >> out of a religiously sanctioned ceremony and the >> people doing act against >> nature - whatever they could be) nor advocate to do >> so. >> >> Don't bother to understand the difference. > > Iran is the latest boogieman, and everything in the Western > press > reflects this and is bullshit. > > There's an old joke where a guy says to his friend, "I've > found a way > to tell when that politician is lying."? His friend, > interest piqued, > asks "How?" The friend responds, "Watch him closely, and > whenever you > see his lips move..." > > Apply the principal. Whenever you see something about Iran > in the > Western press, think "lips". While I agree that many in the West, including in the Western elites, are trying to demonize Iran, I don't think every last report about Iran is false. The threat (to the West, especially to the US), I think, is inflated*, but Iran is not a society where no oppression ever occurs above the normal background level we've come to accept. (That said, I'm not sure where to rate it -- probably far less oppressive than many other states in the region, such as Saudi Arabia.) Regards, Dan * And whatever threat is there could be handled by the US militarily disengaging from the region. Regional powers -- Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, and India -- can then balance against Iran rather than having their defense subsidized by the taxpayers in US and its allies. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 14:46:09 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:46:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <930560.31423.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <930560.31423.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906030746y98d9461hb86bb172a5af6891@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Dan wrote: > While I agree that many in the West, including in the Western elites, are trying to demonize Iran, I don't think every last report about Iran is false. ?The threat (to the West, especially to the US), I think, is inflated*, but Iran is not a society where no oppression ever occurs above the normal background level we've come to accept. ?(That said, I'm not sure where to rate it -- probably far less oppressive than many other states in the region, such as Saudi Arabia.) I think this is a reasonably balanced attitude... -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Wed Jun 3 14:24:00 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:24:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77B73D96108C4D56A278B1AFB3283DFD@spike> > >>...Californian African-Americans despise gays... Best, Jeff Davis > > > > That one I do have a hard time explaining. ?Anyone wish to take a > > crack at it? > > "I and the public know, > what all school children learn. > Those to whom evil is done, > do evil in return". > W.H. Auden > > Best, Jeff Davis Sure, but this particular case seems backwards to me. Of the gay people I know, none have demonstrated racism that I can recall. Eddy Murphy did a lot of gay humor, but he is the only one that comes to mind, and even his routine isn't particularly harsh: what if...Kramden and Norton were homosexuals? In general the black commedians aren't identifiably worse than their white counterparts. There aren't many black Mormons. Puzzling. My intuition is that these two groups would be natural allies. spike From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 14:41:14 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (p0stfuturist at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <137800.10893.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ? Larry Craig? he was only doing the Tinkerbell Two-step. The Republican elite, when they're not toe-tappin' and playin' Butt Pirates of the Airport Restroom, despise gays. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 15:18:49 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 08:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <335099.3135.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: [snip of explanation of Law of Marginal Utility] > I don't disagree with any of this, but you have just been > describing > what will happen as a result of the man's behaviour. That > there are > reliable patterns of behaviour and reliable consequences of > the > behaviour, for example giving rise to the Law of Marginal > Utility, > does not negate the fact that behaviour is due to > psychology. I think that particular Law would apply to any acting entity that values and has limited means -- viz., means that are incapable of achieving all its values. If you're going to say that broadly speaking this is psychology, fine, though I don't think economics need dip into the particular psychologies of various actors. Economics need only start from the conditions that people act -- have particular values (what these are is the stuff of psychology perhaps), limited means, and must use the latter to achieve the former. I also believe this will, to a great extent, explain market phenomena, such as inflationary booms, price ceilings (below the market price*) causing shortages, and the like. One need not, in these cases, call up anything else to explain the particular outcomes. (The "all else being equal," of course, applies here. Obviously, for instance, a price ceiling will create shortages only if the market clearing price remains above the ceiling -- i.e., if supply and demand remain the same (or close enough). Were demand to drop (say, because people's tastes change) or supply increase (say, because some entrepreneurs do discover a way to make more of the good for less). And, of course, setting a price ceiling below the current market price and hoping that either the demand will fall or the supply increase (or both) is wishful thinking. That's like censoring a book and hoping no one would want to read it anyway -- or outlawing homosexuality and hoping that all gays will change to being straight.) So where would, for you, psychology enter into the discussion of, say, the current financial crisis in a way that would actually add something to the explanation? Simply saying that had people changed their preferences is not enough in my view. (Recall, too, the problem with an inflationary boom is not so much preferences as such as conditions that created contradictory expectations about preferences -- specifically that one can increase both consumption and savings at the same time. (Artificially low interest rates or an increased money supply, initially, sets up the expectation that the supply of loanable is higher than it really is. This simultaneously creates a disincentive to save (or lowers the incentive to save) and an incentive to spend and borrow.**)) Regards, Dan * A price ceiling above it would make no sense. ** Of course, inflation expectations enter the picture too. Inflation, however, is highly path dependent, so it creates many problems for those attempting to forecast its rate and the relative price changes. (And, inflation expectations at the beginning tend to be zero or very low while near the end they tend to be very high. A hyperinflation seems to happen not when inflation reaches infinity, but when inflation expectations becoming so that people simply stop using the inflated money all together.) From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 16:31:17 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 09:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Balance or truth/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <902207.39546.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Dan > > wrote: >> While I agree that many in the West, including in the >> Western elites, are trying to demonize Iran, I don't think >> every last report about Iran is false. ?The threat (to the >> West, especially to the US), I think, is inflated*, but Iran >> is not a society where no oppression ever occurs above the >> normal background level we've come to accept. ?(That said, >> I'm not sure where to rate it -- probably far less >> oppressive than many other states in the region, such as >> Saudi Arabia.) > > I think this is a reasonably balanced attitude... To me, it just seems to be the view that makes the most sense -- given what I know about Iran, previous demonizations, and history. I'm not aiming at balance per se -- just truth. In this case, I think we'll see, yet again, people who demonize Iran as the worst evil ever to exist and an immediate threat to the US on one side and those who completely downplay the character of the current Iranian regime on the other. Both sides seem, to me, to be missing something. The Iranian state is bad, but that doesn't necessarily make it a threat to either the US or the West; it can be contained by regional players if necessary. And to counter the demonization that's taking place, one should never adopt the equally flawed position of either making the target look like a complete victim or denying its actual bad traits. (This doesn't mean the truth is in the middle either. It just means taking the opposite in a dyad is not necessarily a path to truth.) Put another way: I fear the US nation state much more than any foreign state. It is a more immediate threat to my life and freedom than Iran. It actually continues to steal directly from me and regulates my peaceful actions -- evne prohibiting many peaceful actions I might take. Yeah, were I living in Iran, I might be in worse shape, but I do NOT live in Iran. And the argument that things are worse there than here -- and they certainly are - is kind of, to me, telling someone being bashed in rural Wyoming, "Well, be glad you're not being beaten and forced to have a sex change in Iran." and then telling that same person, "The Iranian threat is so much more relevant to your life than worrying about your problems here."* Regards, Dan * No offense to rural Wyoming. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jun 3 16:59:20 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:59:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <77B73D96108C4D56A278B1AFB3283DFD@spike> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <77B73D96108C4D56A278B1AFB3283DFD@spike> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090603115236.02285b40@satx.rr.com> At 07:24 AM 6/3/2009 -0700, spike wrote: >Sure, but this particular case seems backwards to me. Of the gay people I >know, none have demonstrated racism that I can recall. The conventional answer would look, I think, to the embattled masculinity of many black males, their kind having been insanely demonized for centuries as a foul threat to Sacred White Womanhood and simultaneously and forcibly treated like powerless children ("Boy!"). The strutting hypermaleness of rap seems to be an inevitable reaction, along with its venomous misogyny and homophobia. ("I ain't nuthin like no *ho*, like no *bee-itch*, like no faggot, yo muthafuck.") Cue Frantz Fanon. Damien Broderick From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 18:17:37 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Restructuring executive compensation Message-ID: <817852.51007.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Max More wrote: > Dan Ust wrote: >> I'm not sure those swings are endogenous to the market >> economy.? In fact, there's reason to suspect on a >> totally free market, there would be few if any total economy >> swings, but only localized or at best secoral ones. > > I'm not sure either, Dan. However, I'm certainly not sure > that they are *not* endemic either. The problem is the > currently-human tendency to imitate one another without > adequate rational thought. (Just the kind of thing that > worries Shiller.) I think the best we can do here is try to have as free markets as possible, so there are strong incentives to not "imitate one another without adequate rational thought." That said, though, I think the more free the market, the less likelihood there is to any "total economy swings." Again, herds can form, but they tend to be localized to a sector or industry. The kinds of swings we see today are, in my view, the result of government interventions, especially ones that directly impact the whole economy (e.g., inflation under central banking) or that severely reduce market flexibility (e.g., price controls, tariffs, import quotas, controls on branch banking, regulations of mergers). > I definitely agree that government > intervention has typically made the swings worse. Yes, a point made time and again is that markets and other voluntary forms of interaction are NOT perfect, but government intervention (and coercion in general) does not improve on this. The typical government intervention, though perhaps well meaning (not always, as big players tend to lobby for interventions that benefit them at the expense of everyone else and cover this with the rhetoric of good intentions*), only makes things worse even if it appears to help someone out. (As with the broken window fallacy, the beneficiaries tend to be the center of attention while the victims -- "the forgotten man" of William Graham Sumner's essay -- are ignored or not even thought of.) >> I'm not as well versed in this area as I'd like to be, >> but from my studies the question to ask is why are certain >> "compensation schemes" selected?? This has not been an >> area of zero intervention and seems related not merely to >> direct interventions in compensation (e.g., caps on payouts, >> including the 1993 one you mention*) but also to the threat >> of interventions... > > Here's an example of how government involvement in > compensation has led to unintended consequences (did I > already mention this?): When the Clinton administration > imposed a cap of $1 million on cash payouts to be eligible > for corporate tax deductions, many firms shifted > compensation to guaranteed bonuses, such as the > controversial AIG payouts. Yet, you can be certain that most > commentators will reflexively blame market-based decisions > for this. Actually, yes, you mentioned it. Hence my parenthetic comment. >> I would only want to see this plan [Dynamic Incentive >> Accounts] voluntarily adopted -- and not adopted merely >> because of either a legal mandate or the threat of such a >> mandate. > > Me too, in case that wasn't clear. And I'd like to see firms free to try other plans as well. Regards, Dan * Think of the recent bailouts. The rhetoric offered up was these were needed to save the whole economy; the truth seems to be these were needed to save the big banks, GM, their investors, and the management of these firms. In the long run, them suffering huge losses or even going under would have been a better lesson for all concerned: manage your firms better. From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 18:36:46 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] CA gay marriage vote/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <678684.27588.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 07:24 AM 6/3/2009 -0700, spike wrote: >> Sure, but this particular case seems backwards to >> me.? Of the gay people I >> know, none have demonstrated racism that I can >> recall. > > The conventional answer would look, I think, to the > embattled masculinity of many black males, their kind having > been insanely demonized for centuries as a foul threat to > Sacred White Womanhood and simultaneously and forcibly > treated like powerless children ("Boy!"). The strutting > hypermaleness of rap seems to be an inevitable reaction, > along with its venomous misogyny and homophobia. ("I ain't > nuthin like no *ho*, like no *bee-itch*, like no faggot, yo > muthafuck.") Cue Frantz Fanon. And, as conventional answers go, this looks simplistic.? In some cases, one can ask "cui bono?" regarding particular stances and obtain profitable explanations.? In this case, I'm not sure.? Why not accept, here, at face value, the notion that traditional or religious beliefs played a role* -- rather than rap or "embattled masculinity"? I think it's vaguely (if unintentionally) racist to presume (not saying you have) that Blacks don't have certain values and act based on these -- that they just react to whatever happened in the past. Regards, Dan * To be sure, interpretations of these. As Jesse Jackson pointed out with regard to same-sex marriage and other gay-related issues: "Well, they didn't make the Top 10 with Moses, and Jesus didn't make mention of them." (This reminds me for my search of the New Testament on abortion. No mention of it that I recall, but lots mentioned in it of how bad divorce is. Why are those who claim to be Biblical literalists not railing against divorce laws?) From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 18:56:37 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:56:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <77B73D96108C4D56A278B1AFB3283DFD@spike> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <77B73D96108C4D56A278B1AFB3283DFD@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20906031156y125996d4u80d53609712abb84@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:24 PM, spike wrote: > Of the gay people I > know, none have demonstrated racism that I can recall. Why, for that matter of the gay racists I know, none have demonstrated peopleness that I can recall... :-D -- Stefano Vaj From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 19:07:48 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:07:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <580930c20906030746y98d9461hb86bb172a5af6891@mail.gmail.com> References: <930560.31423.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20906030746y98d9461hb86bb172a5af6891@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Dan wrote: >> While I agree that many in the West, including in the Western elites, are trying to demonize Iran, I don't think every last report about Iran is false. ?The threat (to the West, especially to the US), I think, is inflated*, but Iran is not a society where no oppression ever occurs above the normal background level we've come to accept. ?(That said, I'm not sure where to rate it -- probably far less oppressive than many other states in the region, such as Saudi Arabia.) > > > I think this is a reasonably balanced attitude... > I agree. My main point is that in the West, mainstream media -- corporate media if you will -- has been almost completely co-opted to the point of becoming a "pure" propaganda organ of the ruling elite. Any person who wants the truth is faced with an almost insurmountable challenge: how to maintain their vital critical faculties when the dominant media -- the msm, not the internet and not the "alternative" press -- is comprehensively corrupted by a political agenda, and as a united front, expertly and successfully employs powerful manipulative techniques to get the polity to believe what the ruling elite want them to believe. This is why the default position should be "lips", and why it's necessary to remind oneself of this fact at the start of every msm paragraph. Otherwise -- and often even in spite of this vigilance -- they will come to "own" you. Google up "statistics, executions, Iran" and find out just how many Iranian homosexuals actually get executed. Best, Jeff Davis "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." Winston Churchill From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 19:12:52 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Racists/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <810661.89575.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:24 PM, spike > > wrote: >> Of the gay people I >> know, none have demonstrated racism that I can >> recall. > > Why, for that matter of the gay racists I know, none have > demonstrated peopleness that I can recall... :-D Ho-hum. Racism while bad and a flaw, IMO, is hardly the worst character flaw. That said, I know gays and bis who are and who aren't racist. Why should we be any different than straights? Most of my close gay friends are not overtly racist, but then again none of my close straight friends are either. And all the gays, straights, etc., racist or not, I know are still people. Regards, Dan From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jun 3 19:19:23 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:19:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] CA gay marriage vote/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <678684.27588.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <678684.27588.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090603141036.022f52b0@satx.rr.com> At 11:36 AM 6/3/2009 -0700, Dan wrote: >Why not accept, here, at face value, the notion that traditional or >religious beliefs played a role* -- rather than rap I was not attributing homophobia and misogyny to rap/gangsta et al, but speculating that the latter are a pretty blatant expression of the forces that help create the former. >or "embattled masculinity"? I think it's vaguely (if >unintentionally) racist to presume (not saying you have) Or Fanon the black psychiatrist? >that Blacks don't have certain values and act based on these -- that >they just react to whatever happened in the past. That's an absurd reduction of what I wrote, but taking it at its least implausible (since in a sense all of us react to whatever happened to us in the past, as well as to our expectations for the future): what are these distinctive values in black culture that you discern as the basis for the homophobia of many (as indexed by polls)? Pointing to Baptist faith or the like doesn't get us far unless you explain what leads those ideological belief systems to promote hatred of gays (supposing that they do). Damien Broderick From sparge at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 19:24:40 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:24:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed?/was Re: Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <907286.74037.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <907286.74037.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Dan wrote: > > That said, yes, there are lenders out there -- or were, as a lot of that's drying up now -- > who will lend with no money down. ?One has to ask, though, why they appeared on > the scene. ?What makes them possible in the first place -- as people generally don't > want to make loans to people who can't repay them? Here's an explanation, courtesy of James McMurtry's song "Choctaw Bingo": "Uncle Slayton's got his Texan pride Back in the thickets with his Asian bride He's cut that corner pasture into acre lots He sells 'em owner financed Strictly to them that's got no kind of credit 'Cause he knows they're slackers And they'll miss that payment Then he takes it back" -Dave From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 19:31:29 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:31:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] CA gay marriage vote/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <678684.27588.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <678684.27588.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:36 AM, wrote: >... as conventional answers go, this looks simplistic.? In some cases, one can ask "cui bono?" regarding particular stances and obtain profitable explanations.? In this case, I'm not sure.? Why not accept, here, at face value, the notion that traditional or religious beliefs played a role* -- rather than rap or "embattled masculinity"? ********************* ?I gave a quick -- not much thought given -- answer to spike's question. Upon further reflection, I think Dan's right. In the privacy of their own culture, non-ghetto African Americans are (my impression) church going Christian social conservatives re issues other than racial equality. Add to that Damien's embattled masculinity (well not Damien's masculinity, but rather his point re African American embattled masculinity) and I think spike has his answer. Best, Jeff Davis I believe -- no pun intended:) -- the practical thing is usually to change those beliefs that cause the most immediate trouble... Daniel Ust From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 19:49:08 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] CA gay marriage vote Message-ID: <925111.44874.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 11:36 AM 6/3/2009 -0700, Dan > wrote: >> Why not accept, here, at face value, the notion that >> traditional or religious beliefs played a role* -- rather >> than rap > > I was not attributing homophobia and misogyny to > rap/gangsta et al, but speculating that the latter are a > pretty blatant expression of the forces that help create the > former. > >> or "embattled masculinity"?? I think it's vaguely >> (if unintentionally) racist to presume (not saying you >> have) > > Or Fanon the black psychiatrist? Yes, I think so in his case. At least, I believe his ideology -- basically collectivist already -- blinded him to viewing things in terms of people perhaps holding their own opinions regardless of their race or class. >> that Blacks don't have certain values and act based on > these -- that they just react to whatever happened in the > past. > > That's an absurd reduction of what I wrote, Actually, I wasn't reacting in that statement to you. That's why I wrote, parenthetically, "not saying you have." > but taking it > at its least implausible (since in a sense all of us react > to whatever happened to us in the past, as well as to our > expectations for the future): what are these distinctive > values in black culture that you discern as the basis for > the homophobia of many (as indexed by polls)? I don't know; haven't done enough research and don't exactly trust the research that I've read so far. (See my other parenthetic comment below) > Pointing to > Baptist faith or the like doesn't get us far unless you > explain what leads those ideological belief systems to > promote hatred of gays (supposing that they do). I'm not sure I'd reduce it to ideology. After all, there are pro-gay and anti-gay Baptists and most people, I believe, don't think systematically enough to have an ideology. (The evidence for this [most people not thinking ideologically or systematically] actually seems sound and overwhelming. Explaining it is, of course, another matter. I don't have general theory of why people hold the beliefs or values they do. I do think some might clues in this area, such as Bryan Caplan's view that people tend to hold certain wrong economic beliefs because the cost of holding them is low. E.g., if you're anti-free trade or pro-minimum wage, the cost to you for holding these views is very low under most circumstances. I don't see exactly how this might apply here -- save to point out that being anti-same sex marriage doesn't really impose many costs on most people outside of a few very gay friendly areas in the US.*) Regards, Dan * That said, I should point out that my personal position is anti-statism, so I think government shouldn't be involved in marriage in the first place. In other words, I think marriage is not for the state to define or enforce. I think if marriage were de-politicized -- even if the government is otherwise left in place; though the only sane, logical, and moral (meaning those who disagree are either partially insane, partly illogical, or immoral:) position is to peacefully overthrow all states -- many of the issues would die away. Yes, a few hardcore anti-gay people would protest when some private individual or group recognizes a gay marriage, but they would look like the kooks they are. From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 20:00:45 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed? Message-ID: <590402.36011.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Dave Sill wrote: > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Dan > > wrote: > > > > That said, yes, there are lenders out there -- or > were, as a lot of that's drying up now -- > > who will lend with no money down. ?One has to ask, > though, why they appeared on > > the scene. ?What makes them possible in the first > place -- as people generally don't > > want to make loans to people who can't repay them? > > Here's an explanation, courtesy of James McMurtry's song > "Choctaw Bingo": > > "Uncle Slayton's got his Texan pride > Back in the thickets with his Asian bride > He's cut that corner pasture into acre lots > He sells 'em owner financed > Strictly to them that's got no kind of credit > 'Cause he knows they're slackers > And they'll miss that payment > Then he takes it back" But in this case, how would anyone make much money off that -- once market interest rates rose and prices fell? We are seeing a lot of these lenders go out of business, so I don't think "Choctaw Bingo" exactly applies across the board. Also, that kind of behavior would happen all the time. One would expect this kind of cheating to be at a, more or less, constant level. One needs to explain why it was worse recently -- which is why a pure* greed explanation (and this is just a species of that sort of explanation) fails. This is where Austrian Business Cycle Theory fares much better: it explains specifically why people would take more such risks during the boom. Regards, Dan * Yes, if you add in auxiliary hypotheses, it might, but this is like adding epicycles to the Ptolemaic system, no? From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 20:05:59 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] CA gay marriage vote Message-ID: <712347.54782.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jeff Davis wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:36 > AM,? > wrote: > >>... as conventional answers go, this looks >> simplistic.? In some cases, one can ask "cui bono?" >> regarding particular stances and obtain profitable >> explanations.? In this case, I'm not sure.? Why not >> accept, here, at face value, the notion that traditional or >> religious beliefs played a role* -- rather than rap or >> "embattled masculinity"? > > ? ? ???********************* > ?I gave a quick -- not much thought given -- answer to > spike's > question.? Upon further reflection, I think Dan's > right.? In the > privacy of their own culture, non-ghetto African Americans > are (my > impression) church going Christian social conservatives re > issues > other than racial equality.? Add to that Damien's > embattled > masculinity (well not Damien's masculinity, but rather his > point re > African American embattled masculinity) and I think spike > has his > answer. You know, on second thought, maybe I was seeking a two one-size-fits-all answer here. No doubt, the Fanon explanation might explain some people's views and actions, but I think not all. > ? I believe -- no pun intended:) -- the practical > ? thing is usually to change those beliefs that > ? cause the most immediate trouble... > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? Daniel Ust Isn't my ego big enough? :/ Regards, Dan From kanzure at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 20:15:17 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:15:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer Issue of h+ Magazine is live now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55ad6af70906031315u6ec07024j7f9891758e07bf88@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:42 PM, James Clement wrote: > Hi Friends, > > I'm pleased to announce that the Summer Issue of h+ Magazine is now > available! > > GO TO: http://www.hplusmagazine.com/magazine > > Please check it out and tell all of your friends about it! > > Best regards, > > James > > James Clement, J.D., LL.M. > Mobile:?407-222-8349 > Email: clementlawyer at hotmail.com > IM: clementlawyer (Skype) > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jwclement I am happy to see other transhumanists interested in diybio, but I'm wondering why exactly WTA ignored its own mailing list? I mean, it just seems kind of stupid to not even bother asking around for information within your own community first before going off to gather information elsewhere. Doesn't look like communication is working, really. I don't recall seeing any emails asking about diybio from the WTA community at all.. I would have been happy to write some text, post links and help out discussions, but nothing like that has showed up at all, so what's the deal? Angry mad scientist, - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From ben at goertzel.org Wed Jun 3 20:35:06 2009 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:35:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer Issue of h+ Magazine is live now In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70906031315u6ec07024j7f9891758e07bf88@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70906031315u6ec07024j7f9891758e07bf88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0906031335j24a11187wdd0d5e9c847a7e43@mail.gmail.com> Bryan, A couple points 1) Each article in a magazine is written by an individual author, who does their research in their own manner ... 2) H+ magazine is not actually published by "H+, the organization formerly known as WTA" ... it began under the aegis of H+ the organization, but is now put out by BetterHumans LLC thx Ben G > I am happy to see other transhumanists interested in diybio, but I'm > wondering why exactly WTA ignored its own mailing list? I mean, it > just seems kind of stupid to not even bother asking around for > information within your own community first before going off to gather > information elsewhere. Doesn't look like communication is working, > really. I don't recall seeing any emails asking about diybio from the > WTA community at all.. I would have been happy to write some text, > post links and help out discussions, but nothing like that has showed > up at all, so what's the deal? > > Angry mad scientist, > > - Bryan > http://heybryan.org/ > 1 512 203 0507 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI ben at goertzel.org "Truth is a pathless land" -- Jiddu Krishnamurti From kanzure at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 20:37:30 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:37:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer Issue of h+ Magazine is live now In-Reply-To: <3cf171fe0906031335j24a11187wdd0d5e9c847a7e43@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70906031315u6ec07024j7f9891758e07bf88@mail.gmail.com> <3cf171fe0906031335j24a11187wdd0d5e9c847a7e43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906031337y2481dc9fsa0bf413de15efd3b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ben Goertzel wrote: > 2) > H+ magazine is not actually published by "H+, the organization > formerly known as WTA" ... it began under the aegis of H+ the > organization, but is now put out by BetterHumans LLC That's even more confusing :-) since George Dvorsky is one of the guys behind Better Humans and he tends to be well-involved with people in the community and the mailing lists. I don't know if that explains anything. Although it was originally my understanding that H+ magazine was the "official" magazine, but now I see that this isn't the case. Maybe it wasn't made clear earlier or something. Anyway, I was wrong apparently. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From ben at goertzel.org Wed Jun 3 21:06:16 2009 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:06:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer Issue of h+ Magazine is live now In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70906031337y2481dc9fsa0bf413de15efd3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70906031315u6ec07024j7f9891758e07bf88@mail.gmail.com> <3cf171fe0906031335j24a11187wdd0d5e9c847a7e43@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70906031337y2481dc9fsa0bf413de15efd3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0906031406r82b1edas87a55dead8873e39@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ben Goertzel wrote: >> 2) >> H+ magazine is not actually published by "H+, the organization >> formerly known as WTA" ... it began under the aegis of H+ the >> organization, but is now put out by BetterHumans LLC > > That's even more confusing :-) since George Dvorsky is one of the guys > behind Better Humans and he tends to be well-involved with people in > the community and the mailing lists. Well, George did not write that article, did he? It's not as though everyone involved with an organization or magazine is involved with every article in the magazine. Anyway, I thought it was a good article. One of the challenges in writing for a magazine as opposed to a blog or website is that space limitations force you to leave out a lot of useful information. However, this results in a product that people can read cover to cover, whereas few have time to read a news website in its entirety... -- Ben G From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Jun 3 21:51:30 2009 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:51:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer Issue of h+ Magazine is live now In-Reply-To: <3cf171fe0906031406r82b1edas87a55dead8873e39@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70906031315u6ec07024j7f9891758e07bf88@mail.gmail.com><3cf171fe0906031335j24a11187wdd0d5e9c847a7e43@mail.gmail.com><55ad6af70906031337y2481dc9fsa0bf413de15efd3b@mail.gmail.com> <3cf171fe0906031406r82b1edas87a55dead8873e39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3010D4EEA8644E4B9C878AF7696497F4@3DBOXXW4850> My artwork is on page 56 of this new issue! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller http://www.nanogirl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Goertzel" To: "Bryan Bishop" Cc: "World Transhumanist Association Discussion List" ; "ExI chat list" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer Issue of h+ Magazine is live now > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Ben Goertzel wrote: >>> 2) >>> H+ magazine is not actually published by "H+, the organization >>> formerly known as WTA" ... it began under the aegis of H+ the >>> organization, but is now put out by BetterHumans LLC >> >> That's even more confusing :-) since George Dvorsky is one of the guys >> behind Better Humans and he tends to be well-involved with people in >> the community and the mailing lists. > > Well, George did not write that article, did he? > > It's not as though everyone involved with an organization or magazine > is involved with every article in the magazine. > > Anyway, I thought it was a good article. One of the challenges in > writing for a magazine as opposed to a blog or website is that space > limitations force you to leave out a lot of useful information. > However, this results in a product that people can read cover to > cover, whereas few have time to read a news website in its entirety... > > -- Ben G > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Jun 3 22:47:21 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:47:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> Il 03/06/2009 4.27, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/3 painlord2k at libero.it: > >> They are framing the problem around Islam. >> There can only be women and men and sex is allowed only between men and >> women married. Other form are prohibited and must be punished. >> They consider homosexuality a disorder where the person have the wrong body. >> They never considered (as would be blasphemous) that there could be >> different inclinations than the canonical ones. They fix the body problem so >> the new woman can have legal sex with a man, if he will marry her before. > > But as discussed, Christianity has had the same taboos, which have > been enshrined in laws prohibiting and severely punishing "unnatural" > sexual behaviour, same as in the Islamic countries. It's just that the > process of secularisation is further advanced in the West. It is just that in Christianity there is the example of Jesus and Mary Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never sin again", where the similar example in Islam have to do with a man that went to Muhammad to confess his sin (conjugal infidelity), Muhammad three times pretended to not hear nothing and the fourth he condemned the man to be killed. I leave to the readers the type of religious interpretations and religious laws that can be derived from two so different episodes. For help, in Islamic law, is someone confess four times the same crime, it is the same as four witness testify against him. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.52/2152 - Release Date: 06/03/09 05:53:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Jun 3 23:05:17 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:05:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <4A259857.60207@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2701AD.1090104@libero.it> Il 03/06/2009 7.53, Jeff Davis ha scritto: > Iran is the latest boogieman, and everything in the Western press > reflects this and is bullshit. I think that you have small interests in the dead that can not be used against the west. A million of Rwandan people killed is of small interest, as it can not be used to attack the US government, or some other western government (Israel included). I never see great protests for the Burmese killed. I never see protest (great or small) for the people killed by Hamas (be they Israeli or Palestinians or Egyptians). I don't know how much people was killed by US in Viet-Nam, I only know that the South was invaded by armoured division of the North (courtesy of the USSR and China) and million of people fled from South Viet-Nam after. Do "Boat People" tell you something? The two millions of people killed by the Sudanese government and government sponsored militias never raise any problem, like the people killed by President Clinton bombing the wrong factory in Sudan. The girls decapitated in Indonesia don't exist or are unimportant. The Christians expelled by Bethlehem (under Arafat and the PNO) don't merit a line. But the dead of a terrorist that killed Jews every time he was able to do so and keep his family near him knowing that he would be a target is all the rage. You are very selective when choose the dead important and the dead unimportant for you. And, surely, how you choose to select them is very different from how I choose to select them. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.52/2152 - Release Date: 06/03/09 05:53:00 From dharris234 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 3 23:35:38 2009 From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:35:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2708CA.2060902@mindspring.com> Tom Nowell wrote: > Luckily, I have to hand the details of 2008 research into overspending on medicine: > A team led by Elliott Fisher of Dartmouth Medical School published a paper in the Annals of Internal Medicine vol 138 p288 comparing medicare outcomes and the headline result was this: "For every 10% of additional medicare spending on hip fracture, colorectal cancer and heart attacks, death rates over 5 years rose by between 0.3 and 1.2 per cent." > > Did they control for how sick and aged the people were? Sicker people could need more service spending but still be more likely to die earlier. From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 00:11:22 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:11:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolutionists Flock to Darwin-Shaped Wall Stain Message-ID: <2d6187670906031711s2b002273g1c3953b0e83bf5f8@mail.gmail.com> This is yet another very funny parody article from The Onion. I await the witty commentary by Spike and Damien... http://www.theonion.com/content/news/evolutionists_flock_to_darwin John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Wed Jun 3 23:55:07 2009 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:55:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! In-Reply-To: References: <109699.43633.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "spike" wrote, > Evidence please? -- Harvey Newstrom From spike66 at att.net Thu Jun 4 02:15:08 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:15:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] CA gay marriage vote/was Re: Iran's plan for their gaypopulation In-Reply-To: References: <678684.27588.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis ...Iran's plan for their gaypopulation > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:36 AM, wrote: > > >... as conventional answers go, this looks simplistic.? In > some cases, one can ask "cui bono?" regarding particular > stances and obtain profitable explanations.? In this case, > I'm not sure.? Why not accept, here, at face value, the > notion that traditional or religious beliefs played a role* > -- rather than rap or "embattled masculinity"? > > ********************* > ?I gave a quick -- not much thought given -- answer to > spike's question. Upon further reflection, I think Dan's > right. In the privacy of their own culture, non-ghetto > African Americans are (my > impression) church going Christian social conservatives re > issues other than racial equality. Add to that Damien's > embattled masculinity (well not Damien's masculinity, but > rather his point re African American embattled masculinity) > and I think spike has his answer. > > Best, Jeff Davis Ja. On the playground in the early years we learned that the politically powerless need all the friends and allies they can get. That was why I was surprised the minorities did not befriend the gays. I see the cryonicist and the gay as natural allies. Reasoning: I have questioned those who object to gay, and asked exactly and specifically what is it about gay that they find objectionable. They stumble around a bit, sometimes offering a religious argument, but usually it ends up with it just simply grosses them out. Well then. The notion of cryonics is like that. People can seldom come up with a logical argument against it, sometimes offering a lame religious angle, but it really comes down to it just squicks them, that's all. So the real question is should something be legally supressed, just because most people find it gross? The gay and the cryonaut are logical allies. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Jun 4 03:08:46 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:08:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolutionists Flock to Darwin-Shaped Wall Stain In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906031711s2b002273g1c3953b0e83bf5f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906031711s2b002273g1c3953b0e83bf5f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Excellent John! I have been thinking of shaving my head and growing an enormous beard, in order to live my life in the image of Darwin, to walk in his footsteps, see with his eyes, and speak his wise words, early and often. spike _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 5:11 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Evolutionists Flock to Darwin-Shaped Wall Stain This is yet another very funny parody article from The Onion. I await the witty commentary by Spike and Damien... http://www.theonion.com/content/news/evolutionists_flock_to_darwin John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Jun 4 02:57:38 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:57:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com><580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com><4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com><4A259748.9060900@libero.it> <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> Message-ID: <0F7E53E121094C2EB9E542CB212FC113@spike> >...On Behalf Of painlord2k at libero.it > ... > > It is just that in Christianity there is the example of Jesus > and Mary Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never sin > again"... Mirco Aside from your point entirely, but that wasn't Mary Magdalene, but rather an unnamed woman taken in adultery. Mary Magdalene was the woman Jesus and Hoerkheimer shared. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jun 4 04:02:05 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:02:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <0F7E53E121094C2EB9E542CB212FC113@spike> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> <0F7E53E121094C2EB9E542CB212FC113@spike> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090603230040.02364d20@satx.rr.com> At 07:57 PM 6/3/2009 -0700, spike wrote: >Mary Magdalene was the woman Jesus and >Hoerkheimer shared. Omg! For a moment I thought your verb was "shaved". Larry Flynt From spike66 at att.net Thu Jun 4 04:10:46 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:10:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! In-Reply-To: References: <109699.43633.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A986D0D32BC4999A5193D0A872A0132@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Harvey Newstrom > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:55 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! > > "spike" wrote, > > Evidence please? > > > > -- > Harvey Newstrom Ja. Cheney is saying now, and appears to be saying then, that Iraq didn't do 9/11, (or if they did, the CIA couldn't prove it), but that Iraq had some mysterious relationship with bin Laden. Cheney isn't saying now that there was no relationship between Iraq and bin Laden, only that Iraq didn't help with the 9/11 attacks. I see no contradiction here. spike From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 07:12:46 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:12:46 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/4 painlord2k at libero.it : > It is just that in Christianity there is the example of Jesus and Mary > Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never sin again", where the similar > example in Islam have to do with a man that went to Muhammad to confess his > sin (conjugal infidelity), Muhammad three times pretended to not hear > nothing and the fourth he condemned the man to be killed. There is also this from the Hadith: http://southernmuslimah.wordpress.com/2007/10/06/very-beautiful-hadith-and-forgiveness-in-islam/ "Allah the Almighty has said: ?O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its.? But it makes no difference if the priest or the holy book preaches forgiveness but the reality is otherwise, as it has been for the best part of 2000 years. It is secularisation that will hopefully lead to a moderate, impotent Islam, as has occurred in the West with Christianity. > I leave to the readers the type of religious interpretations and religious > laws that can be derived from two so different episodes. > > For help, in Islamic law, is someone confess four times the same crime, it > is the same as four witness testify against him. That is because some Muslims interpret and apply the Koran literally. This happens less with Jews and Christians becuase they choose to ignore or reinterpret Biblical law. Here is a sample of stuff you should be put to death for: http://zeppscommentaries.com/Religious/death.htm "Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." Well, in 21st century America, we have some 16,000 "smitings" each year that result in death, and only a small percentage of those result in the death penalty for someone; and far too often, it?s not even the someone who did the smiting! We?re coming up ?way short on executions here. That?s not very biblical. Exodus 21:15 "And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Now, my mom?s a nice little old lady who probably wouldn?t handle a right uppercut real well. If I were to hit her, that would qualify me for jerk of the year award, and some jail time, but if I didn?t kill her then death seems kinda harsh. Even if I was enough of a louse to do something like that. Exodus 21:16 "He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death" Some states have the death penalty for kidnaping. I?m not sure about the "selling" part, though. I would guess that?s a violation of the 14th amendment. Except, of course, under biblical law, slavery and the buying and selling of human beings is generally viewed with a laissez-faire air about it. Exodus 21:17 "And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." That would definitely eliminate classroom crowding. Exodus 21:29 "But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death." I imagine that applies to vicious dogs, as well. Instead of gassing them, Human Society personnel would just chuck rocks at Bowser until he?s kind of a pulpy mass. We don?t usually stone the owner along with his pet, but they can get several years for criminal negligence under the right circumstances. But on most American farms, the tractor has replaced the ox. No, there?s no point in trying to deny it; it?s true. So if a tractor, I don?t know, slips out of gear and hits someone, killing them, does that mean the tractor should be put to death? Exodus 22:19 "Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death." I suspect that means more than just "lying" with the animal. There goes a fairly significant number of male members of farm families. Exodus 31:14 "You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for [it is] holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does [any] work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people." Working on the Sabbath gets you kicked out of the country. And it could be read that working on the Sabbath (usually Sunday) could earn you a trip to the Green Mile. Some bibles go on to say that heating your house on the Sabbath is profaning it, which means nearly every American outside of a few in Honolulu has probably earned the death penalty. Exodus 31:15 "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh [is] the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does [any] work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." Good bye, NFL. Leviticus 19:20 "Whoever lies carnally with a woman who [is] betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; [but] they shall not be put to death, because she was not free." I take that to mean that if you lie with a woman who is not a slave you better make certain she hasn?t made any plans to be a concubine. Leviticus 20:2 "Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: 'Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives [any] of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones." Well, how big a problem is this, anyway? Moloch hasn?t been real big on the god circuit for a couple of thousand years now, and frankly, he isn?t any more likely to make a comeback at this stage than Ronald Reagan is. Maybe they could change it, so any teeny-bopper caught with three or more Justin Timberlake posters shall be put to death. That seems fair. Leviticus 20:10 "The man who commits adultery with [another] man's wife, [he] who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death." That right there should pretty much empty out Congress... Leviticus 20:11 "The man who lies with his father's wife has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death. Their blood [shall be] upon them." Not mother. So if mom dies, and pops runs out and marries a real babe, watch out. . Leviticus 20:12 "If a man lies with his daughter_in_law, both of them shall surely be put to death. They have committed perversion. Their blood [shall be] upon them." Yeah, that?s kinda tacky. Still, it?s a pity Shakespear didn?t toss that as a plot device into "Hamlet". Imagine the lines Hamlet could have uttered about Ophelia! (Of course, he would have had to marry Ophelia, which would have wiped out one of the main plot elements...ok, maybe Bill knew what he was doing after all.) Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood [shall be] upon them." That?s the one the religious whacks always like to quote to show that God is against gays. Of course, by now, it?s apparent that God is against stuff that 95% of Americans have indulged in at least once at one point or another. Leviticus 20:15 "If a man mates with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal." That seems kinda harsh. It?s not like the pony gave his consent. Leviticus 20:16 "If a woman approaches any animal and mates with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood [is] upon them." I?m told that there are movies with that exact storyline already. I doubt they?ll ever become big grossers at the box office. At least, I hope not. Leviticus 20:27 "A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood [shall be] upon them." "First, let?s kill all the astrologers." OK. That works for me. Along with, as mentioned above, all economists and oddsmakers. Numbers 1:51 "And when the tabernacle is to go forward, the Levites shall take it down; and when the tabernacle is to be set up, the Levites shall set it up. The outsider who comes near shall be put to death." -- Stathis Papaioannou From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 08:32:17 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:32:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <4A2708CA.2060902@mindspring.com> References: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A2708CA.2060902@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 6/3/09, David C. Harris wrote: > Did they control for how sick and aged the people were? Sicker people > could need more service spending but still be more likely to die earlier. > Medical bills underlie 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies: study Thu Jun 4, 2009 1:10am EDT By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Medical bills are involved in more than 60 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies, an increase of 50 percent in just six years, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday. More than 75 percent of these bankrupt families had health insurance but still were overwhelmed by their medical debts, the team at Harvard Law School, Harvard Medical School and Ohio University reported in the American Journal of Medicine. etc..... BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:10:58 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:10:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Racists/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <810661.89575.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <810661.89575.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906040310s262f241fm27f91c810510f4f4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Dan wrote: > And all the gays, straights, etc., racist or not, I know are still people. Why, I couldn't say the same, one of my friends, e.g., has a gay dog. :) In fact, my joke referred to the fact of putting together zodiac signs, sexual orientations, political opinions, hair colours... -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:28:15 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:28:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906040328n309bcd54r506b5e52e889c66b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/4 painlord2k at libero.it : > Il 03/06/2009 4.27, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > It is just that in Christianity there is the example of Jesus and Mary > Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never sin again", where the similar > example in Islam have to do with a man that went to Muhammad to confess his > sin (conjugal infidelity), Muhammad three times pretended to not hear > nothing and the fourth he condemned the man to be killed. Nice example. I guess a few managers would have some degree of sympathy for Muhammad's position... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:31:20 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 20:31:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <335099.3135.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <335099.3135.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/4 Dan : > So where would, for you, psychology enter into the discussion of, say, the current financial crisis in a way that would actually add something to the explanation? ?Simply saying that had people changed their preferences is not enough in my view. ?(Recall, too, the problem with an inflationary boom is not so much preferences as such as conditions that created contradictory expectations about preferences -- specifically that one can increase both consumption and savings at the same time. ?(Artificially low interest rates or an increased money supply, initially, sets up the expectation that the supply of loanable is higher than it really is. ?This simultaneously creates a disincentive to save (or lowers the incentive to save) and an incentive to spend and borrow.**)) Is it the belief that one can increase consumption and savings at the same time or is it interest rates? Lower interest rates effectively lower the cost the money, so more people borrow money, all else being equal. But that doesn't give the full picture. There are many, many other factors at play, not only irrational belief about spending and saving but the bankers' belief that house prices will continue rising or that complex derivatives can insure against catastrophic losses; and these are all psychological factors, even if they can't as easily be quantified or manipulated as interest rates. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:38:05 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:38:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed? In-Reply-To: <590402.36011.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <590402.36011.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/4 Dan : > > --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Dave Sill wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Dan >> >> wrote: >> > >> > That said, yes, there are lenders out there -- or >> were, as a lot of that's drying up now -- >> > who will lend with no money down. ?One has to ask, >> though, why they appeared on >> > the scene. ?What makes them possible in the first >> place -- as people generally don't >> > want to make loans to people who can't repay them? >> >> Here's an explanation, courtesy of James McMurtry's song >> "Choctaw Bingo": >> >> "Uncle Slayton's got his Texan pride >> Back in the thickets with his Asian bride >> He's cut that corner pasture into acre lots >> He sells 'em owner financed >> Strictly to them that's got no kind of credit >> 'Cause he knows they're slackers >> And they'll miss that payment >> Then he takes it back" > > But in this case, how would anyone make much money off that -- once market interest rates rose and prices fell? ?We are seeing a lot of these lenders go out of business, so I don't think "Choctaw Bingo" exactly applies across the board. > > Also, that kind of behavior would happen all the time. ?One would expect this kind of cheating to be at a, more or less, constant level. ?One needs to explain why it was worse recently -- which is why a pure* greed explanation (and this is just a species of that sort of explanation) fails. ?This is where Austrian Business Cycle Theory fares much better: it explains specifically why people would take more such risks during the boom. A new factor was the existence of Credit Default Swaps, by which financial institutions believed they could insure against losses. It didn't work out that way. -- Stathis Papaioannou From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 12:57:19 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 05:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > Il 03/06/2009 4.27, StathisPapaioannou ha scritto: > > 2009/6/3 painlord2k at libero.it: >> But as discussed, Christianity has had the same >> taboos, which have >> been enshrined in laws prohibiting and severely >> punishing "unnatural" >> sexual behaviour, same as in the Islamic countries. >> It's just that the >> process of secularisation is further advanced in the >> West. > > It is just that in Christianity there is the example of > Jesus and Mary Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never > sin again", That's not in the Bible. That's a Middle Ages conflation, IIRC. In the Bible, Jesus tells an _unnamed_ adulteress to not sin again; it's unlikely she's Mary Magdelene and there's no reason to equate the two. Regards, Dan From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 13:00:51 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Racists Message-ID: <663518.98635.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Dan > > wrote: >> And all the gays, straights, etc., racist or not, I >> know are still people. > > Why, I couldn't say the same, one of my friends, e.g., has > a gay dog. :) > > In fact, my joke referred to the fact of putting together > zodiac > signs, sexual orientations, political opinions, hair > colours... Oh, I though you were using "gay" to mean something like "a human who has sexual or romantic inclinations toward the same sex. Regards, Dan From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 13:26:12 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed? Message-ID: <839262.72684.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/6/4 Dan : >> But in this case, how would anyone make much money off >> that -- once market interest rates rose and prices fell? >>?We are seeing a lot of these lenders go out of business, >> so I don't think "Choctaw Bingo" exactly applies across the >> board. >> >> Also, that kind of behavior would happen all the time. >>?One would expect this kind of cheating to be at a, more or >> less, constant level. ?One needs to explain why it was >> worse recently -- which is why a pure* greed explanation >> (and this is just a species of that sort of explanation) >> fails. ?This is where Austrian Business Cycle Theory fares >> much better: it explains specifically why people would take >> more such risks during the boom. > > A new factor was the existence of Credit Default Swaps, by > which > financial institutions believed they could insure against > losses. It > didn't work out that way. There are always new factors. In this case, some relatively new financial instruments (IIRC, these swaps came into being in the late 1990s) did play a role. This doesn't negate the Austrian Business Cycle Theory (ABCT) explanation; it merely explains the path some of the inflation took. Also, sans inflation, these swaps wouldn't have had much of an impact -- not on the whole economy; there would've been no new money to flow into them in the first place and they would've had to compete with other instruments for funds. (Also, without the moral hazard created by the "Greenspan put," one would expect that new financial instruments would be viewed with skepticism; a climate of "the Fed is here to CYA" -- which still exists -- tends to increasing risk-taking, no?) Regards, Dan From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 13:27:02 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:27:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> Message-ID: <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 4:07 PM, spike wrote: > need not send that many, for it requires only two human landers, both nubile > females with lots of frozen embryos. ?They and their offspring are there to > stay. ?That's the right way to do a Mars colony. ?Takes a long time, but it > is still the right way. Do you ever see a need for men? Once science supersedes the requirement for old-fashioned reproduction, is there much use for the male of our species? Machines do the heavy lifting and the intelligence to build & guide the machines is not gender-dependent. Once you've selected your two nubile females, do you send any male embryos with them? Or is Mars destined to be populated solely by women? From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 13:30:06 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:30:06 +0200 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906040630w5b24713fx7d974553de354b5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote: > Do you ever see a need for men? ?Once science supersedes the > requirement for old-fashioned reproduction, is there much use for the > male of our species? What about sending along a few gays? :-) -- Stefano Vaj From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jun 4 13:42:20 2009 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:42:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com><165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Mike Dougherty" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 6:27 AM Do you ever see a need for men? Once science supersedes the requirement for old-fashioned reproduction, is there much use for the male of our species? Machines do the heavy lifting and the intelligence to build & guide the machines is not gender-dependent. Once you've selected your two nubile females, do you send any male embryos with them? Or is Mars destined to be populated solely by women? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Needs_Women Olga From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:37:22 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:37:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed? In-Reply-To: <839262.72684.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <839262.72684.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Dan_ust wrote: > > There are always new factors. In this case, some relatively new financial instruments > (IIRC, these swaps came into being in the late 1990s) did play a role. This doesn't negate > the Austrian Business Cycle Theory (ABCT) explanation; Only if you are a true believer in the Austrian Business Cycle. Most of your comments appear to concentrate on defending the ABC. Wikepedia points out some of the criticisms of the ABC Quote: More recently, mainstream economists like Milton Friedman, Gordon Tullock, Bryan Caplan and Paul Krugman have stated that they regard the theory as incorrect. David Laidler views the theory as motivated by the political leanings of its major proponents, as Austrian economists are known for their strong opposition to government involvement in the economy, and argues that the theory was discredited because of its association with "nihilistic policy prescriptions" for the Great Depression. and In 1988 Gordon Tullock explained his disagreement with the theory. His main point is that "if the process that Rothbard describes did occur, there would be many corporate bankruptcies and business people jumping out of the windows of office buildings, but there would be only minor transitional unemployment. In fact, measured GNP would be higher as a result." This is because the Austrian theory implies fluctuations in investment, but not in the production decisions of firms. Nobel laurete Paul Krugman also made a similar argument when he stated that the theory implies that consumption would increase during downturns and cannot explain the empirical observation that spending in all sectors of the economy falls during a recession ------------ I doubt if there is much to be gained from you saying" 'Tis" and others saying " Tsn't". We can all decide which economic theory suits our prejudices best. ;) BillK From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 15:43:32 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (p0stfuturist at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <826046.41803.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > no offense to rural Wyoming. ? Having spent time in?the Cheyenne area?I would say-- if Cheyenne is representative-- WY is not in the least sexually repressed. Matt Shepard could have been murdered in any state, you heard of the?California HS student who was murdered for being gay in 2008; you've heard of the man on a TV program who said he?fancied a guy and was subsequently killed by the object of his attention. And so forth-- it's not that uncommon.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 16:35:48 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population Message-ID: <703506.996.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, p0stfuturist at yahoo.com wrote: >> no offense to rural Wyoming. > ? > Having spent time in?the Cheyenne area?I > would say-- if Cheyenne is representative-- WY is not in the > least sexually repressed. Matt Shepard could have been > murdered in any state, > you heard of the?California HS student who was > murdered for being gay in 2008; you've > heard of the man on a TV program who said > he?fancied a guy and > was subsequently killed by the object of his attention. And > so forth-- it's not that uncommon.? My only point was that were I worried about being bashed, I'd be a lot more worried about where I lived, worked, and frequented -- and not in some far off place. (I don't recall all the details of the Matthew Shepard incident, but, yes, I agree, what happened to him was not something that was essentially related to Wyoming.) Regards, Dan From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 21:30:21 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed? Message-ID: <716307.98578.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, BillK wrote: > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Dan_ust wrote: >> >> There are always new factors.? In this case, some >> relatively new financial instruments >> (IIRC, these swaps came into being in the late 1990s) >> did play a role.? This doesn't negate >> the Austrian Business Cycle Theory (ABCT) >> explanation; > > Only if you are a true believer in the Austrian Business > Cycle. Not at all.? I provided an explanation of why ABCT doesn't clash with an explanation that incorporates new financial instruments.? In fact, a week ago, in a footnote, I stated: "Does this mean there are no other system-wide causes at work?? No, though business cycles can be traced to a primary inflationary cause while other system-wide cause tend to shape the specifics of the given cycle.? In other words, there are path dependencies -- or initial conditions (inflation) and boundary conditions (e.g., specific regulations that might shift malinvestments along one path as opposed to another)." You didn't respond to this, IIRC.? And you also clipped the rest of the post you're now responding to: "... it merely explains the path some of the inflation took.? Also, sans inflation, these swaps wouldn't have had much of an impact -- not on the whole economy; there would've been no new money to flow into them in the first place and they would've had to compete with other instruments for funds.? (Also, without the moral hazard created by the "Greenspan put," one would expect that new financial instruments would be viewed with skepticism; a climate of "the Fed is here to CYA" -- which still exists -- tends to increasing risk-taking, no?)" Why did you clip that?? Some might opine to make it look like mine was a faith-based view of ABCT. > Most of your comments appear to concentrate on defending > the ABC. Others are offering other explanations of the recent crisis, including "animal spirits."? I'm defending what I believe to be the best explanation, among the ones I'm aware of and based, of course, on my understanding of economics and economic history.? Well, to be sure, some are offering other explanations.? One person just seems to, as I've stated, before be "[c]iting newspaper headlines and pundits for an explanation."? :) That said, though, there are certain kinds of explanations, regardless of whether ABCT is true or useful, that don't work. A pure greed explanation doesn't explain anything -- unless there's some way to explain why greed was more prevalent in the run up to this crisis. > Wikepedia points out some of the criticisms of the ABC > > Quote: > More recently, mainstream economists like Milton Friedman, > Gordon > Tullock, Bryan Caplan and Paul Krugman have stated that > they regard the theory as incorrect. Yes, and I'm aware of them.? Not to drop names, but I even know Bryan Caplan personally and he has more criticisms of Austrian economics than just of business cycle theory.? (One debate a few years ago was over the Mises socialist calculation argument.? Caplan takes the view that lack of the right incentives and not lack of calculation is the reason socialist economies fail.) But what does all this mean to you?? You've read a Wikipedia article.? Austrian economics has its critics.? So do all other schools of economics.? Does having critics and doubters refute any particular one?? Would not having such make a school valid and true? > David Laidler views the theory as > motivated > by the political leanings of its major proponents, as > Austrian > economists are known for their strong opposition to > government > involvement in the economy, And what does this mean?? That's his opinion. > and argues that the theory was discredited > because of its association with "nihilistic policy > prescriptions" for the Great Depression. Yes, I've heard.? To pro-government types, "nihilism" is used to mean lack of government control.? So, in a sense, since the government doesn't yet tell you how to wipe, we have toilet paper nihilism.? :)? In other words, if you don't support state intervention or control, then you must not believe in anything. To be sure, Laidler means, with regard to the Great Depression, that Austrian economists recommended (at that time, Mises, Hayek, and a few others -- almost all of whom were from Austrian) and recommend (pretty much most though not all of their heirs -- almost all of whom are now in the Anglo-American countries) hands off.? So?? The way to evaluate the Austrian policy recommendations for recessions and depressions is not to see what Laidler says or knee-jerk to his use of nihilist.? It's instead to evaluate their theory and prescriptions. > and > In 1988 Gordon Tullock explained his disagreement with the > theory. His > main point is that "if the process that Rothbard describes > did occur, > there would be many corporate bankruptcies and business > people jumping > out of the windows of office buildings, but there would be > only minor > transitional unemployment. In fact, measured GNP would be > higher as a > result." This is because the Austrian theory implies > fluctuations in > investment, but not in the production decisions of firms. On the latter comment, this shows a lack of understanding of capital theory: fluctations in investments play right into production decisions at firms.? Firms don't make such decisions independent of how much investment there is or is expected to be. On the former -- Tullock's quoted remarks -- if you read his original paper* on this and understand a little about ABCT and Austrian economics, you come to see Tullock does not. I could go over this point by point here, but that'd take some time and maybe bore the rest of the list members. Let me just point to one passage. Responding to Rothbard's pamphlet, he writes: "... it should be noted that if the business people are now building more factories than they were before, which is what Rothbard says, then, in fact, savings that are available for building factories must have increased. In fact, they have. What has happened is that the government by inflationary measures is transferring a certain amount of money from the general citizenry into the investment accounts and, hence, the money for building these additional factories is made available." This shows a misunderstanding of what inflation is and how it impacts the loan market. The point is, in ABCT, that the actual resources -- here, savings -- don't exist. The newly created money only makes it appear like the savings are there. That a factories are built based on expected prices and without anticipating inflation results from actually drawing resources from elsewhere. This is unlike other wealth transfers -- say, where the government taxes the "general citizenry" to pay to build those factories. In that case, even though this too distorts the market -- i.e., had the government not intervened, the factories wouldn't have been built -- this is no distortion in prices or fooling entrepreneurs (and eventually everyone else) via inflation. > Nobel > laurete Paul Krugman also made a similar argument when he > stated that > the theory implies that consumption would increase during > downturns > and cannot explain the empirical observation that spending > in all > sectors of the economy falls during a recession I'm not sure that follows from ABCT at all. Of course, during a bust, price adjustments have to happen and capital has to be reallocated -- and this is not costless. What a bust usually reveals is that, during the boom, capital was actually consumed -- as in the case of bad investments made are made clear. On the latter -- the _malinvestments_ -- the problem is investments are made -- which have a real effect as capital goods are deployed and locked into certain projects -- that would only be profitable if factor prices (and interest rates**) didn't rise or if the prices of the final outputs were higher. > I doubt if there is much to be gained from you saying" > 'Tis" and > others saying " Tsn't". > We can all decide which economic theory suits our > prejudices best. ;) But, again, I'm not saying "'Tis" while you and others say "'Tisn't."? I've actually provided reasoning behind my views.? Stathis also has presented his reasoning.? I've not accused him from operating as True Believers in an "animal spirits" explanation, have I? Regards, Dan * In PDF here: http://mises.org/journals/rae/pdf/RAE2_1_4.pdf ** Continuing low interest rates or lowering them further is not palliative here, if ABCT is correct. Ultimately, it'd lead to hyperinflation -- a cure much worse than recession. But even if it didn't, price rises would still start to outpace any lowering of interest rates. (Please note Japan for the last 15 years.) From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 21:44:07 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <329799.53970.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/6/4 Dan : > >> So where would, for you, psychology enter into the >> discussion of, say, the current financial crisis in a way >> that would actually add something to the explanation? >>?Simply saying that had people changed their preferences is >> not enough in my view. ?(Recall, too, the problem with an >> inflationary boom is not so much preferences as such as >> conditions that created contradictory expectations about >> preferences -- specifically that one can increase both >> consumption and savings at the same time. ?(Artificially >> low interest rates or an increased money supply, initially, >> sets up the expectation that the supply of loanable is >> higher than it really is. ?This simultaneously creates a >> disincentive to save (or lowers the incentive to save) and >> an incentive to spend and borrow.**)) > > Is it the belief that one can increase consumption and > savings at the > same time or is it interest rates? Lower interest rates > effectively > lower the cost the money, so more people borrow money, all > else being > equal. But that doesn't give the full picture. There are > many, many > other factors at play, not only irrational belief about > spending and > saving but the bankers' belief that house prices will > continue rising > or that complex derivatives can insure against catastrophic > losses; > and these are all psychological factors, even if they can't > as easily > be quantified or manipulated as interest rates. The way inflation generally enters contemporary economies is via central banks lowering interest rates -- the interest rates they directly control -- which is known as "credit expansion."*? (The actual rate some pays is usually higher.? In the US, for instance, the Fed sets the prime lending rate).? It can also come about via direct creation of monies -- as when central banks just increase the "base money" supply, viz., create new accounts -- or when reserve requirements are lowered. You probably know much of this, but it's perhaps best to look at the role of the interest rate.? Yes, it sets the cost of borrowing money.? If the interest rate is set by market interactions -- by suppliers and demanders of loanable funds -- then the rate will tend to equilibrate savings and loans under full reserve banking.? (Fractional reserve banks can inflate, but even they will approach a sort of equilibration.)? If the interest rate is artificially lowered, under full reserve banking, then this will have the same effect as artificially lowering prices: there will be a shortage of loanable funds as the demand will not be equilibrated with supply.? (The opposite happens if the rate is artificially increased.? Of course, the same happens if entrepreneurs make mistakes -- setting the rate too high or too low -- but they have an incentive to get it right -- specificaly to make profits and to avoid losses -- whereas central bankers don't experience the same incentive (if Bernanke gets it wrong, it's not his money in play) or, if they do, not as quickly (since Bernanke is very far removed from the actual goings on, there's a huge time lag between his crew's setting rates and what actually happens; add to this, the Fed and other central banks are generally reactive not proactive).) Given time lags in a large money economy -- like the US's or the world's -- artificially lowering interest rates under a fractional reserve system creates new money.? The new money enters the system via the loanable funds markets -- typically benefiting the biggest debtors first.? (In any modern economy, the biggest debtors tend to be the state and large financial institutions.)? The loans they take are then spent -- or, in the case of fractional reserve banks, re-loaned out (the banks get a loan from the Fed (this money simply didn't exist before) and since they only need to keep a fraction in reserves, so this creates more new money.? Were the process instantaneous, there would be an immediate rise in prices across the board -- as the value of the money unit instantly dropped.* This is not the case, however, as new money (whether as new credit or not) takes time and is path dependent.? Those who first get new monies (e.g., new loans) can early on buy up resources for their projects.? This drives up the prices in the markets they first enter.? (Supply and demand in action.)? Even if some entrepreneurs anticipate this -- e.g., if I guess that Big Bank just got a billion in new funds and generally invests that in, say, bird feeders, I might, before Big Bank even makes an investment, invest in factors used to make bird feeders.? But unless we assume perfect entrepreneuers -- i.e., people able to perfectly forecast all of this*** -- some of this new money is going to flow into a market before people can adjust. Some real factors will change hands and the later price adjustments will only come afterward. Beforehand, this means, just about everyone was acting as if there was no new money. This process continues to ripple through the economy. The actual path is takes is not predictable beforehand -- save for generalities like the first people who get the new money or new credit will have an advantage and later players will not (because they will be in an environment where some prices have already adjusted, more or less, upward). As it proceeds, though, the effect is as if the earlier holder of the new money had real savings. This is how savings and loanable funds or investments get disequilibrated. (Or, to be more precise, since no real world market is ever in equilibrium, they become more equilibrated than normal.) Does this make sense? Also, this is not an irrational belief model. It's people acting on the local information they have -- particular prices, particular interest rates, and other data -- without anticipating inflation. Now, of course, people do try to anticipate inflation in real markets -- hence things like inflation premia on loans or COLA in labor contracts -- but such anticipation is never perfect and path dependencies don't allow a robust prediction of relative price changes. (Relative changes are critical here. Again, if all price rose in lockstep or instantly, then little would change (but see ** below) -- as a 10% return on investments would remain 10% and a person's salary would rise in step with the prices of good and services she buys. This would be, IIRC, just like Hume's angel -- the one who, in an effort to aid humanity, doubles everyone's cash supply.) But as soon as people do start to anticipate inflation more, their real behavior will change too: they, in general, will become more present-centered as they will expect savings to not be worth as much (e.g., if I save $1000 today, it might only be worth, say, $900 next year, so why not spend it now? This is why in really inflation, people start buying up anything at all in hopes of getting something for money they expect to fall ever more in value) and more reckless in their investing. And this is, in fact, what we do empirically see, no? Regards, Dan *? Inflation used to take place by actually printing up more money or, when metallic monies were prevalent, by meddling with the specie content of coins and enforcing their trading at par.? (All of this requires some form of enforcement -- usually through legal tender laws or other ways of privileging inflated monies.? Else, if people can switch to other monies, they will; there will be a flight to quality as ever more people won't except inflated monies and switch to sounder ones.? This goes against the usual interpretation of Gresham's Law -- where bad money drives out good.? However, Gresham's Law only applies when bad (lower value) money is forced upon people at par with good money.? If no one is forced to accept bad money, they generally won't -- especially once they know it's of lower value.) ** Of course, there might still be "shoe leather" and "menu" costs, so it wouldn't be totally costless.? Shoe leather costs are costs associated with carrying more money to deal with higher prices.? It's based on the notion, people would have to make more trips to the bank or MAC machine to get more money.? (Of course, with electronic fund transfers, this seems quaint, but even these are not costless.)? Menu costs are the costs of changing prices of goods to match the new higher prices.? (Obviously, this too is quaint, though there are still costs associated with changing the web site to reflect changed prices.? Or renegotiating contracts to make sure they reflect ditto.? Unlike shoe leather costs, these costs would also appear for that extremely rare if not extinction bird deflation.) ***? All real world entrepreneurs are imperfect, though some are better than others.? Real world government workers, too, are no better, so they can't improve on entrepreneurial imperfection; they can only add their imperfections to the mix, making things, on average, worse.? (Yes, they might get lucky, but this is no different than a gamble -- and a bad one at that since regulators and such have the same flaws but lack the incentives to correct these.? A regulator who gets it wrong is, in general, not playing with her or his money or resources.? The same regulator, too, tends to lack the information to even get it right were the incentives irrelevant here.) From spike66 at att.net Thu Jun 4 22:30:32 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:30:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com><165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty > Subject: Re: [ExI] future fizzle > > On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 4:07 PM, spike wrote: > > need not send that many, for it requires only two human > landers, both > > nubile females with lots of frozen embryos. ?They and their > offspring > > are there to stay. ?That's the right way to do a Mars > colony. ?Takes a > > long time, but it is still the right way. > > Do you ever see a need for men? Once science supersedes the > requirement for old-fashioned reproduction, is there much use > for the male of our species? Machines do the heavy lifting > and the intelligence to build & guide the machines is not > gender-dependent. > Once you've selected your two nubile females, do you send any > male embryos with them? Or is Mars destined to be populated > solely by women? At first it would be only women and female embryos. Then there will be a planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live on Mars. Imagine being the first guy there. Thirty to fifty women, some of whom have never even seen a man, otherwise the planet is all yours. Would that be cool, or what? spike From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 23:10:56 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:10:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:30 PM, spike wrote: > At first it would be only women and female embryos. Then there will be a > planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live on Mars. Imagine > being the first guy there. Thirty to fifty women, some of whom have never > even seen a man, otherwise the planet is all yours. Would that be cool, or > what? > Or....... 30 to 50 women saying, "You want to do WHAT???!!!! Have you gone totally insane??? Where's my tazer?" BillK From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Thu Jun 4 23:25:20 2009 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:25:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <4A2708CA.2060902@mindspring.com> References: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A2708CA.2060902@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <0AB4AF8BB59442A8B4A6862AA821069E@Catbert> Tom Nowell wrote: > Luckily, I have to hand the details of 2008 research into overspending on > medicine: > A team led by Elliott Fisher of Dartmouth Medical School published a paper > in the Annals of Internal Medicine vol 138 p288 comparing medicare > outcomes and the headline result was this: "For every 10% of additional > medicare spending on hip fracture, colorectal cancer and heart attacks, > death rates over 5 years rose by between 0.3 and 1.2 per cent." Correlation does not establish causation. The above implication is a standard logical fallacy. It is invalid to imply that Medicare spending increases death rates from the above data. A more likely implication is that increased rates of deaths due to hip fracture, colorectal cancer, and heart attacks (due to the population living longer) is increasing Medicare spending. If one wanted to determine if Meticare spending increases death rates, one would have to compare these statistics to people not on Medicare. -- Harvey Newstrom From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Thu Jun 4 23:07:17 2009 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:07:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] CA gay marriage vote/was Re: Iran's plan for theirgaypopulation In-Reply-To: References: <678684.27588.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "spike" wrote, > The gay and the cryonaut are logical allies. James Hughes has been spreading this message for years. Gays, and also transsexuals, were early transhumanists. They wanted to change the usage or shapes of their bodies from one human role to another human role, and it freaked people out. How are they going to handle it when they start changing to robotic and non-human roles? Women's reproductive rights are another early example. Do people have the right to control their own bodies, or not? These basic questions aren't new. -- Harvey Newstrom From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Thu Jun 4 23:33:18 2009 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:33:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Was it just greed? In-Reply-To: References: <590402.36011.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79F8804D262F47A6BD06EF590C66DDFC@Catbert> "Stathis Papaioannou" wrote, > A new factor was the existence of Credit Default Swaps, by which > financial institutions believed they could insure against losses. It > didn't work out that way. Actually, it did, for the dishonest ones. In a non-intuitive process, institutions could maintain their insurance even after they sold the toxic assets to other institutions. In this way, the original insitution made money on the failures, while others got stuck with the bill. This is the basis of some current fraud investigations. -- Harvey Newstrom From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 02:43:09 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:43:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670906041943w3783339bx60b6a32c8c0d1a15@mail.gmail.com> Astronaut Spike imagined: At first it would be only women and female embryos. Then there will be a planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live on Mars. Imagine being the first guy there. Thirty to fifty women, some of whom have never even seen a man, otherwise the planet is all yours. Would that be cool, or what? >>> BillK responded: 30 to 50 women saying, "You want to do WHAT???!!!! Have you gone totally insane??? Where's my tazer?" >>> I think BillK's response was just about right! lol I think we would see the scenario of "welcome to Mars Base Sappho or at least Mars Base Timid Virgin!" LOL A movie I am really looking forward to seeing is "Moon." I think it's a little more realistic than Spike's version of things. hee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_(film) John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 05:46:11 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:46:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906041943w3783339bx60b6a32c8c0d1a15@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> <2d6187670906041943w3783339bx60b6a32c8c0d1a15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670906042246l2ca45616u65690b56146a25f2@mail.gmail.com> A trailer for the film "Moon." I love the retro 2001/Silent Running look of the film. This looks like a possible SF gem... http://www.imdb.com/vide/imdb/vi843186969/ John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jun 5 06:17:18 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 01:17:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906042246l2ca45616u65690b56146a25f2@mail.gmail.co m> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> <2d6187670906041943w3783339bx60b6a32c8c0d1a15@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670906042246l2ca45616u65690b56146a25f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605011647.0236ba48@satx.rr.com> >http://www.imdb.com/vide/imdb/vi843186969/ http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi843186969/ From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 06:44:30 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:14:30 +0930 Subject: [ExI] High population density triggers cultural explosions Message-ID: <710b78fc0906042344h4b5498c4rf8d182ac3729d3bf@mail.gmail.com> This makes all kinds of sense to me. --- High population density triggers cultural explosions http://www.physorg.com/news163344562.html Increasing population density, rather than boosts in human brain power, appears to have catalysed the emergence of modern human behaviour, according to a new study by UCL (University College London) scientists published in the journal Science. High population density leads to greater exchange of ideas and skills and prevents the loss of new innovations. It is this skill maintenance, combined with a greater probability of useful innovations, that led to modern human behaviour appearing at different times in different parts of the world. In the study, the UCL team found that complex skills learnt across generations can only be maintained when there is a critical level of interaction between people. Using computer simulations of social learning, they showed that high and low-skilled groups could coexist over long periods of time and that the degree of skill they maintained depended on local population density or the degree of migration between them. Using genetic estimates of population size in the past, the team went on to show that density was similar in sub-Saharan Africa, Europe and the Middle-East when modern behaviour first appeared in each of these regions. The paper also points to evidence that population density would have dropped for climatic reasons at the time when modern human behaviour temporarily disappeared in sub-Saharan Africa. Adam Powell, AHRC Centre for the Evolution of Cultural Diversity, says: "Our paper proposes a new model for why modern human behaviour started at different times in different regions of the world, why it disappeared in some places before coming back, and why in all cases it occurred more than 100,000 years after modern humans first appeared. "By modern human behaviour, we mean a radical jump in technological and cultural complexity, which makes our species unique. This includes symbolic behavior, such as abstract and realistic art, and body decoration using threaded shell beads, ochre or tattoo kits; musical instruments; bone, antler and ivory artefacts; stone blades; and more sophisticated hunting and trapping technology, like bows, boomerangs and nets. Professor Stephen Shennan, UCL Institute of Archaeology, says: "Modern humans have been around for at least 160,000 to 200,000 years but there is no archaeological evidence of any technology beyond basic stone tools until around 90,000 years ago. In Europe and western Asia this advanced technology and behaviour explodes around 45,000 years ago when humans arrive there, but doesn't appear in eastern and southern Asia and Australia until much later, despite a human presence. In sub-Saharan Africa the situation is more complex. Many of the features of modern human behaviour - including the first abstract art - are found some 90,000 years ago but then seem to disappear around 65,000 years ago, before re-emerging some 40,000 years ago. "Scientists have offered many suggestions as to why these cultural explosions occurred where and when they did, including new mutations leading to better brains, advances in language, and expansions into new environments that required new technologies to survive. The problem is that none of these explanations can fully account for the appearance of modern human behaviour at different times in different places, or its temporary disappearance in sub-Saharan Africa." Dr Mark Thomas, UCL Genetics, Evolution and Environment, says: "When we think of how we came to be the sophisticated creatures we are, we often imagine some sudden critical change, a bit like when the black monolith appears in the film 2001: A Space Odyssey. In reality, there is no evidence of a big change in our biological makeup when we started behaving in an intelligent way. Our model can explain this even if our mental capacities are the same today as they were when we first originated as a species some 200,000 years ago. "Ironically, our finding that successful innovation depends less on how smart you are than how connected you are seems as relevant today as it was 90,000 years ago." -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 06:47:11 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:17:11 +0930 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0906042347i61e95dbfgc2cf5022fce1b962@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/5 BillK : > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:30 PM, spike wrote: >> At first it would be only women and female embryos. ?Then there will be a >> planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live on Mars. ?Imagine >> being the first guy there. ?Thirty to fifty women, some of whom have never >> even seen a man, otherwise the planet is all yours. ?Would that be cool, or >> what? >> > > > Or....... > > 30 to 50 women saying, > "You want to do WHAT???!!!! ? ?Have you gone totally insane??? > Where's my tazer?" > > BillK Right, I'll get started on the environment suits with "Don't Taze Me Sis" printed on them. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 11:48:45 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:48:45 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: <329799.53970.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <329799.53970.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/5 : > You probably know much of this, but it's perhaps best to look at the role of the interest rate.? Yes, it sets the cost of borrowing money.? If the interest rate is set by market interactions -- by suppliers and demanders of loanable funds -- then the rate will tend to equilibrate savings and loans under full reserve banking.? (Fractional reserve banks can inflate, but even they will approach a sort of equilibration.)? If the interest rate is artificially lowered, under full reserve banking, then this will have the same effect as artificially lowering prices: there will be a shortage of loanable funds as the demand will not be equilibrated with supply.? (The opposite happens if the rate is artificially increased.? Of course, the same happens if entrepreneurs make mistakes -- setting the rate too high or too low -- but they have an incentive to get it right -- specificaly to make profits and to avoid losses -- whereas central bankers don't experience > ?the > ?same incentive (if Bernanke gets it wrong, it's not his money in play) or, if they do, not as quickly (since Bernanke is very far removed from the actual goings on, there's a huge time lag between his crew's setting rates and what actually happens; add to this, the Fed and other central banks are generally reactive not proactive).) Then why does every country have a central bank? If they just muck things up you would think that over time a country that tries out an economic system without a central bank would prosper, and its neighbours would either take note and copy it or else fall further and further behind. The US did not have a central bank in the 19th century, and experienced multiple boom/bust cycles, more than in the 20th century. > Given time lags in a large money economy -- like the US's or the world's -- artificially lowering interest rates under a fractional reserve system creates new money.? The new money enters the system via the loanable funds markets -- typically benefiting the biggest debtors first.? (In any modern economy, the biggest debtors tend to be the state and large financial institutions.)? The loans they take are then spent -- or, in the case of fractional reserve banks, re-loaned out (the banks get a loan from the Fed (this money simply didn't exist before) and since they only need to keep a fraction in reserves, so this creates more new money.? Were the process instantaneous, there would be an immediate rise in prices across the board -- as the value of the money unit instantly dropped.* > > This is not the case, however, as new money (whether as new credit or not) takes time and is path dependent.? Those who first get new monies (e.g., new loans) can early on buy up resources for their projects.? This drives up the prices in the markets they first enter.? (Supply and demand in action.)? Even if some entrepreneurs anticipate this -- e.g., if I guess that Big Bank just got a billion in new funds and generally invests that in, say, bird feeders, I might, before Big Bank even makes an investment, invest in factors used to make bird feeders.? But unless we assume perfect entrepreneuers -- i.e., people able to perfectly forecast all of this*** -- some of this new money is going to flow into a market before people can adjust. ?Some real factors will change hands and the later price adjustments will only come afterward. ?Beforehand, this means, just about everyone was acting as if there was no new money. > > This process continues to ripple through the economy. ?The actual path is takes is not predictable beforehand -- save for generalities like the first people who get the new money or new credit will have an advantage and later players will not (because they will be in an environment where some prices have already adjusted, more or less, upward). ?As it proceeds, though, the effect is as if the earlier holder of the new money had real savings. ?This is how savings and loanable funds or investments get disequilibrated. ?(Or, to be more precise, since no real world market is ever in equilibrium, they become more equilibrated than normal.) > > Does this make sense? Yes, it makes sense, except when it doesn't work that way. Japan in the 1990's lowered interest rates to near zero, printed money, and went for big time government deficit spending. This might have been expected to caused inflation, maybe even hyperinflation, and a collapse in the value of the yen. Instead, Japan had continuing deflation and the yen remained strong. But perhaps the recession would have been even worse in the absence of these policies, and perhaps a tighter monetary policy might have prevented the Japanese asset price bubble from inflating to the extent that it did. > Also, this is not an irrational belief model. ?It's people acting on the local information they have -- particular prices, particular interest rates, and other data -- without anticipating inflation. ?Now, of course, people do try to anticipate inflation in real markets -- hence things like inflation premia on loans or COLA in labor contracts -- but such anticipation is never perfect and path dependencies don't allow a robust prediction of relative price changes. ?(Relative changes are critical here. ?Again, if all price rose in lockstep or instantly, then little would change (but see ** below) -- as a 10% return on investments would remain 10% and a person's salary would rise in step with the prices of good and services she buys. ?This would be, IIRC, just like Hume's angel -- the one who, in an effort to aid humanity, doubles everyone's cash supply.) ?But as soon as people do start to anticipate inflation more, their real behavior will change too: > ?they, in general, will become more present-centered as they will expect savings to not be worth as much (e.g., if I save $1000 today, it might only be worth, say, $900 next year, so why not spend it now? ?This is why in really inflation, people start buying up anything at all in hopes of getting something for money they expect to fall ever more in value) and more reckless in their investing. ?And this is, in fact, what we do empirically see, no? In general it is what we see, but it also depends on the population. The aforementioned Japanese seem constitutionally less inclined to borrow money for consumer spending than Americans are, no matter how cheap and easy it is to get a loan. -- Stathis Papaioannou From kanzure at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:07:26 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:07:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alternative human keyboard interfaces Message-ID: <55ad6af70906050707o21531dabyae724949b682e711@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Sometime in 2005 I started on a project so that I could just carry a keyboard around everywhere attached to some simple microcontroller and flashcard reader thing, although I didn't go anywhere with that. Anyway, here's a small archive of alternative keyboard interfaces that I am aware of- I find the DataHand particularly odd, and am wondering if anyone knows of any other devices that are interesting or worthy of consideration. Are there alternative keyboard interfaces that go beyond 150 wpm? I can't seem to get more than 150 wpm on QWERTY, although I have heard high claims for dvorak, even though some individuals seem to just change the key mappings for a QWERTY and call it dvorak. http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/kb/ Some of the images there are really open hardware packages (one had a GPL license even), so it's not all work-for-nothing. One of the problems with the chorded keyboards is that, as a programmer, I need more unusual keys more frequently than other people need them- so I can't be using ridiculous combinations just for a semicolon or one of the slashes or carrot characters, etc. etc. Maybe someone has already figured out an optimal solution to this for chorded or even non-chorded keyboards? - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From estropico at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:34:47 2009 From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:34:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia. Swine flu, black swans, and Geneva-eating dragons. Anders Sandberg on What statistics tells us we should (not) be worried about Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90906050534n56f51b5ch876e4b19cf281b4@mail.gmail.com> Swine flu, black swans, and Geneva-eating dragons Anders Sandberg on What statistics tells us we should (not) be worried about 2pm-4pm, Saturday 20th June. Risk is everywhere these days - in economy, in technology, in health, in climate. Such things have always been uncertain, but recently our society has become preoccupied with risk and safety, often allowing such concerns to trump any other value. The more future-oriented we become, the more nasty possibilities there seem to be, and the more we strive for safety the more elusive it becomes. Worse, many problems are radically uncertain: we have no experience with them and may not even have considered them before they strike. But what can we actually say about what threatens us? What are the big threats we can foresee? What can we do about them? This talk will introduce some of the thinking about risk that is going on right now: *) how power-law distributed disasters reliably surprise us *) how to estimate the risk of something we have no historical record of *) why we should be more afraid of power outages than asteroids *) why the really big problems always are unexpected *) and how to try to think when you know normal reasoning is too unreliable. There is no charge to attend and everyone is welcome. Join the debate! Discussion is likely to continue after the event, in a nearby pub, for those who are able to stay. Why not join some of the UKTA regulars for a drink and/or light lunch beforehand, any time after 12.30pm, in The Marlborough Arms, 36 Torrington Place, London WC1E 7HJ. To find us, look out for a table where there's a copy of the book "The Black Swan" displayed. Venue: Room 153, on the first floor (via the lift B) in the main Birkbeck College building, in Torrington Square (which is a pedestrian-only square). Torrington Square is about 10 minutes walk from either Russell Square or Goodge St tube stations. --- http://www.uktranshumanistassociation.org/ http://extrobritannia.blogspot.com/ From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Jun 5 16:11:21 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:11:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <329799.53970.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2943A9.2090601@libero.it> Il 05/06/2009 13.48, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > Then why does every country have a central bank? Not every contry. A few use someone else currencies (like Ecuador using the US $ or Vatican using the ?). > If they just muck things up you would think that over time a country > that tries out an economic system without a central bank would > prosper, and its neighbours would either take note and copy it or > else fall further and further behind. The US did not have a central > bank in the 19th century, and experienced multiple boom/bust cycles, > more than in the 20th century. There is not such thing as a "country" in economics. There are only individuals. So, the right question is "What type of individuals benefit by a central bank creation and continual existence?" The answer is simple, government types. Without a Central Bank and its tools, a government have a single way to extract wealth from the people governed, taxation. And taxation is unpopular, always. >> Does this make sense? > Yes, it makes sense, except when it doesn't work that way. Japan in > the 1990's lowered interest rates to near zero, printed money, and > went for big time government deficit spending. This might have been > expected to caused inflation, maybe even hyperinflation, and a > collapse in the value of the yen. Instead, Japan had continuing > deflation and the yen remained strong. But perhaps the recession > would have been even worse in the absence of these policies, and > perhaps a tighter monetary policy might have prevented the Japanese > asset price bubble from inflating to the extent that it did. Japan have an huge quantity of private saving and they save much more than Americans. The public debt can be huge, but the people is not in debts. This is different from the US and the UK. It is more like in Italy, where a large public debt is paired by a large saving from the individuals. My supposition is that Japan rates are near zero for the institutional actors, not for the common people. Then there is the problem on how the demographic profile is impaction the economy. Older population have not much to spend or invest into, so zero interests could not create the demand for the same loans. Then there is the problem of how easy is to obtain a loan. Rate, in Italy, are now all time low. But obtaining a loan or a mortgage in Italy is not easy. Substantial downpayments are required and the bank will want to know also how much hairs you have over your lower back. Single numbers rarely tell all and explain all. > In general it is what we see, but it also depends on the population. > The aforementioned Japanese seem constitutionally less inclined to > borrow money for consumer spending than Americans are, no matter how > cheap and easy it is to get a loan. This is a part that can be influenced by culture, demography and other factors. Italians, like me, that lived in the '70 and '80 when inflation reached 15% yearly are primed to be resistant to take loan for frivolous reasons or to be repaid onto a too long time period. This is because, in Italy, people prefer so much an higher but fixed rate on mortgages. It could cost you more, but if things go belly up, this is a problem of the bank, not your. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.53/2156 - Release Date: 06/05/09 06:24:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Jun 5 16:30:43 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:30:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A294833.70700@libero.it> Il 04/06/2009 14.57, Dan ha scritto: >> It is just that in Christianity there is the example of Jesus and >> Mary Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never sin again", > In the Bible, Jesus tells an _unnamed_ adulteress to not sin again; This is enough. He don't ordered to kill her. Who she was is not important, really. What matter is the example and the precedent. Christians are bound to try imitate Christ, Muslims are bound to try imitate Mohammed. Things are so simple. Now, look in the life and examples set by Mohammed and the examples set by Jesus. Then you decide if you want live near people trying to imitate Jesus or near people trying to imitate Mohammed. The difference is not tiny. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.53/2156 - Release Date: 06/05/09 06:24:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Jun 5 17:15:32 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:15:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <580930c20906040328n309bcd54r506b5e52e889c66b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670905302152q2362ca88ncf1e6a6b27d81818@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20905311114g5bec2744t114cf272897f7d99@mail.gmail.com> <4A252538.6090102@libero.it> <580930c20906021007g10aa9fdew4d367d1845547a7f@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090602123615.0230f0d0@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906021238i37746b51wf409aeb0487033b7@mail.gmail.com> <4A259748.9060900@libero.it> <4A26FD79.8080305@libero.it> <580930c20906040328n309bcd54r506b5e52e889c66b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2952B4.804@libero.it> Il 04/06/2009 12.28, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > 2009/6/4 painlord2k at libero.it: >> Il 03/06/2009 4.27, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: >> It is just that in Christianity there is the example of Jesus and Mary >> Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never sin again", where the similar >> example in Islam have to do with a man that went to Muhammad to confess his >> sin (conjugal infidelity), Muhammad three times pretended to not hear >> nothing and the fourth he condemned the man to be killed. > > Nice example. I guess a few managers would have some degree of > sympathy for Muhammad's position... :-) Fortunately they don't founded religions and don't are interested on imposing them to others. From the other side, nothing prevent them from imposing a punishment not so stern on people that admit without being forced their wrongdoing and appear to be willing to change their behaviour. Did I cited the hadit about a blind man that gutted his female pregnat slave because she badmouth Mohammad and would not stop to do so? The day after, when they discovered what was happened, Mohammed not pardoned him for his crime, he told that he didn't do anything wrong. This is a precedent that prevent any and all Muslims to condemn other Muslims that kill someone that criticize or badmouth Mohammed. I'm sure a few managers would simpatize with Mohammed in this too. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.53/2156 - Release Date: 06/05/09 06:24:00 From dan_ust at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 17:40:19 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene? Message-ID: <404559.96980.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/5/09, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > Il 04/06/2009 14.57, Dan ha scritto: > >>> It is just that in Christianity there is the >>> example of Jesus and >>> Mary Magdalene and his exhortation "Go and never >>> sin again", > >> In the Bible, Jesus tells an _unnamed_ adulteress to >> not sin again; > > This is enough. > He don't ordered to kill her. > Who she was is not important, really. > What matter is the example and the precedent. Oh, I agree. I just wanted to correct the Mary Magdelene was a whore line. In fact, from reading the Bible -- and the Bible is, to my knowledge, the ONLY "primary" source text on Mary Magdelene; this doesn't make it correct, but there are no other primary sources on her, all else is derived or speculation -- there's little that can be said about her. > Christians are bound to try imitate Christ, Muslims are > bound to try imitate Mohammed. Things are so simple. Actually, if my understanding of Christian theology is correct, true, but there's wide room for interpretation here AND the general view is that one cannot completely imitate Jesus. I.e., one may try, but one will fail -- hence the need for Jesus to redeem humans not being able to live up to that standard. I'm not as familiar with Islamic theology, but its interpreters also allow for abrogation of specific passages of the Koran and the various works on Mohammed's life are, likewise, open to interpretation and, in some cases, abrogation. > Now, look in the life and examples set by Mohammed and the > examples set by Jesus. Then you decide if you want live near > people trying to imitate Jesus or near people trying to > imitate Mohammed. > > The difference is not tiny. I'm not so sure. People claiming to be members of both faiths have committed genocides and all lesser crimes. If one were to look for frequencies here, then I'm not so sure the data would support either being better or worse. That said, Christians and Muslims living in modern secularized societies tend to be, on the whole, more peaceful than either living in non-secular societies, especially ones dominated by fanatics from their particular religion. The great mass of Muslims -- like the great mass of Christians or the great mass of people in general -- appear to be peaceful under most circumstances. I mean they are not, to my knowledge, carrying out this passage -- one you're probably familiar with, given your knowledge of Islam: "If you hear it said about one of the towns given to you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods," then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder... It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt." Are they? Regards, Dan From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Jun 5 18:24:18 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:24:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2962D2.9020800@libero.it> Il 03/06/2009 1.13, Tom Nowell ha scritto: > That's right - the more money gets spent on these 3 common killers > of the elderly, the greater the death rates. I remember checking out > the website and seeing how they compared big-spending hospitals with > smaller hospitals and with big "centre of excellence" hospitals. > Over-servicing is here and killing elderly Americans today. This is not a US feature only. http://www.univadis.it/medical_and_more/it_IT_News_Daily?source=scraped/nmdg/detail.asp?id=23802%26region%3DNazionale (With Google Translate) >> Alarm defensive medicine, 8 surgeons in 10 admit to practice >> >> Milan, 4 June. (Adnkronos Health) - Useless admission, unnecessary >> tests, unnecessary drugs, even difficult patients' avoided 'for >> fear. The fear of being dragged to court by their sick or their >> family takes hostage the Italian white gowns. In particular, the >> surgeons, 78% of whom admit to having resorted to the so-called >> defensive medicine to prevent any legal disputes. The survey finds >> empirical promoted by the Italian Society of Surgery (Sic), >> conducted between July and November 2008 on a sample of 307 >> doctors. The research will be presented tomorrow at the University >> Cattolica in Milan, during the panel discussion 'The problem of >> defensive medicine and criminal responsibility in health care: a >> proposal for reform'. The event is from 11:30 to 17:30, in Room >> Negri Oleggio from university wide Twins 1st To organize the >> meeting is the Centro studi 'Federico Stella' criminal justice and >> criminal policy (Csgp) of the Catholic, that the opportunity for >> launching a proposal for legislative reform with the aim of >> managing more effectively disputes health. Of the 307 surgeons >> questioned - reads a note in the Catholic - 83% say they have >> entered in avoidable medical records, and 69.8% confessed to having >> brought the hospitalization of a patient in hospital despite the >> patient was ambulatory manageable, and 61.3% no secret of having a >> prescribed number of diagnostic tests to more than necessary. And >> again. 58.6% of the white lab coat says he made of the consultation >> is not necessary with other specialists, 51.5% have prescribed >> unnecessary drugs, and 26.2% have excluded patients at risk from >> certain treatments, as well the normal rules of caution. As for the >> main reasons that lead to defensive behaviors, 80, 4% of >> respondents interviewed stated precisely the fear of medico-legal >> litigation. Just starting from the data of Sic - coordinated by >> Gabrio Forti, Professor of Criminal Law and Criminology and >> director of Csgp, and Maurizio Catino, Professor of Sociology at >> the University degli Studi di Milano-Bicocca - speakers outline the >> key points of a draft legislative reform on defensive medicine and >> the management of litigation related to clinical risk. "One project >> - the University anticipates Milan - focused around the limitation >> of criminal liability of health care for the only cases of gross >> negligence, to the expectation of justice programs, alternative to >> criminal proceedings, and a new set of guarantees related to >> insurance ' provision of health services. " The researchers remind >> Csgp as "over 10 years, from 1995 to 2005, the number of claims >> reported to insurance companies in Italy, in the field of civil >> liability in the health sector has increased from just over 17 >> thousand to about 28,500, registering an increase of 65% (Ania, >> 2007). Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.53/2156 - Release Date: 06/05/09 06:24:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Jun 5 18:28:39 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:28:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: References: <995644.98453.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A2708CA.2060902@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4A2963D7.6040500@libero.it> Il 04/06/2009 10.32, BillK ha scritto: > > > Medical bills underlie 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies: study > Thu Jun 4, 2009 1:10am EDT > By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Medical bills are involved in more than 60 > percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies, an increase of 50 percent in > just six years, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday. > > More than 75 percent of these bankrupt families had health insurance > but still were overwhelmed by their medical debts, the team at Harvard > Law School, Harvard Medical School and Ohio University reported in the > American Journal of Medicine. > etc..... Maybe, the problem is not the medical debts, but the fact that health insurance don't cover the loss of a job and the loss of income. There is a difference to handsomely pay to cure me after a stroke and cover my living expenses and my family too. If I'm too sick to work, I will not be able to pay my bill and bankrupt will follow suit. mainly if the common US citizen have saving for two weeks at hand. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.53/2156 - Release Date: 06/05/09 06:24:00 From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 19:52:29 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:52:29 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A294833.70700@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906051252r2a672d96k334cc9f71035c6e5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/5 painlord2k at libero.it : > Christians are bound to try imitate Christ. Mmhhh, with a pinch of salt. Those of them who thought that they should actually be poor or climb a cross or make miracles have usually been burned on a stake. :-) Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 19:54:57 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:54:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene? In-Reply-To: <404559.96980.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <404559.96980.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906051254n6b9c6319n31a280816ef13457@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Dan wrote: > Oh, I agree. ?I just wanted to correct the Mary Magdelene was a whore line. Aren't we *way* off-topic? Doesn't anybody want to hear about my stamp collection or my preferred chess opening or the true recipe of apple pie? -- Stefano Vaj From dan_ust at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 21:30:47 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene? Message-ID: <922018.72667.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/5/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 7:40 PM, > Dan > wrote: >> Oh, I agree. ?I just wanted to correct the Mary >> Magdelene was a whore line. > > Aren't we *way* off-topic? > > Doesn't anybody want to hear about my stamp collection or > my preferred > chess opening or the true recipe of apple pie? I made this statement in the context of a discussion of the impact of religious beliefs on law. I'm not sure that's all that off topic, especially given that these laws impact what we can do in a big way. Yes, my hope is that we transcend all this stuff -- and that any discussions of the finer points of these beliefs, myths, and theologies become purely academic -- kind of like when my friends and I discuss the life of John Berryman. (No one in my circle is willing to kill or die for the finer points on Berryman's life, regardless of how interesting he was.) Regards, Dan From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jun 6 00:34:52 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:34:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> My latest book, the science fiction long story collection UNCLE BONES, just to hand this afternoon in the mail from the small press publisher Fantastic Books. It's a handsome trade paperback, with especially handsome surrealistic/noir cover art by transhumanist Anders Sandberg reproduced beautifully. What fun to have a book out on Monday (the crime novel I'M DYING HERE, co-written with Rory Barnes) and another on Friday... And more on their way. Apologies to anyone who finds this excruciatingly off topic. Damien Broderick From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 03:16:49 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:16:49 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A294833.70700@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it : > Christians are bound to try imitate Christ, Muslims are bound to try imitate > Mohammed. Things are so simple. It's not so simple! For centuries Christians went about happily making war, torturing and killing. Ideas about forgiveness, loving your enemy, turning the other cheek etc. did not have much sway. Christian America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims have killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way. -- Stathis Papaioannou From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 07:39:03 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 00:39:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670906060039w1fc867dahe444f1e860ea2cd9@mail.gmail.com> > > > Apologies to anyone who finds this excruciatingly off topic. > > Damien Broderick Damien, don't you realize this list exists first and foremost as an organ to disseminate information about your work as a writer? The rest of what goes on here is just an evolutionary by-product... John ; ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 11:00:00 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 04:00:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims have killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way. >>> Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war?? How many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved?? Please let me know... Americans (even those in uniform) tend to feel very sad about innocents getting killed due to the fighting... And the Iraqi people have scratched their heads in amazement as American troops accused of war crimes have (at least sometimes) been tried for their wrongdoing and convicted. They were not used to seeing such things during the reign of Saddam (unless we are talking about kangaroo courts to destroy Saddam's enemies). The United States is a vastly more powerful nation then Iran or Afghanistan, and as great powers tend to do, exercises that power in the way they see fit. Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold and it was only a matter of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist organizations and became a major supporter of them. I just wish Pres. Bush had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD. But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S. possesses? I shudder at the very thought... A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death toll ten times (or a hundred times...) what we have had due to mass executions, concentration/labor camps, the firebombing of entire cities, starvation, rape, body organ stealing, disease, and death march deportations. The United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely. America has it's definite shortcomings, but at least we have values and principles to aspire to (despite sometimes veering off in the wrong direction, until course corrections are made), instead of merely always pursuing power for it's own sake and with no concern for human life and liberty, which is the approach of our rivals. At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who want to cripple Western civilization. Yes, it's terrible that so many innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover & impromptu human shields. John Grigg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 11:37:04 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:37:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906060437g3540660ej9de1485b653a0488@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/6 John Grigg : > Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war??? How > many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved??? Please > let me know... In fact, in order not to compare apples with oranges, you should take into account Iraqi civilians killed by US troops on Iraq's metropolitan territory on one side, and US civilians killed by Iraqi troop on US metropolitan territory on the other... -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 11:48:23 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:48:23 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906060448m24bdb3absdaf7e1b2f7deeebb@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 2:34 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Apologies to anyone who finds this excruciatingly off topic. Why, there is much worse than that... :-) Plus, I do not really believe you could ever write fiction *entirely* off-topic. :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 11:55:17 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:55:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906060455o5390525cs759dca3d92277936@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > It's not so simple! For centuries Christians went about happily making > war, torturing and killing. Ideas about forgiveness, loving your > enemy, turning the other cheek etc. did not have much sway. I also think that the idea that even "authentic" christianism involves or preach meekness and pacifism is exagerated. Let us say that this is something mainly aimed at inducing bad conscience in the enemies and at avoiding a "mounting in pride" by your partisans. Even the new testament contains many teachings that can be interpreted otherwise (say "organise terrorist mission to disrupt the bench and the business of the merchants!", "if you feel you are clean, stone the adultery!", "drown the pigs if they are possessed!", e.g.). -- Stefano Vaj From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 12:21:54 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:21:54 +1000 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/6 John Grigg : > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims have > killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual > justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way. >>>> > > Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war??? How > many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved??? Please > let me know... Even one American death is too much if the invasion was evil and unnecessary; but as Stefano said, the correct comparison is with the number of American civilians killed by Iraqis on American soil. > Americans?(even those in uniform) tend to feel very?sad about innocents > getting killed?due to the fighting... Whereas the soldiers of other, evil countries are happy when they kill civilians in a country they are invading. > And the Iraqi people have scratched > their heads in amazement as American?troops?accused of war crimes have?(at > least sometimes) been?tried for their?wrongdoing and convicted.? They were > not used to seeing?such things?during the reign of Saddam (unless we are > talking about kangaroo courts to destroy Saddam's enemies). In occupied Europe, the Germans sometimes tried and punished soldiers who committed crimes against the local population. They also treated prisoners of war relatively well, at least compared to the Japanese. But this doesn't excuse the fact that they were the invaders, and responsible for the deaths of millions who tried to resist the invasion or got in the way, as well as millions of their own soldiers. > The United States is a vastly more powerful nation then Iran or > Afghanistan,?and as great powers tend to do, exercises that power in the way > they see fit.? Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold and?it was only a matter > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres. Bush > had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, > but?obviously not?on a false?pretense regarding WMD. So every country that might at some point pose a potential threat to the US, however slight, is liable to be invaded? > But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the > combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S. > possesses?? I shudder at the very thought... > > A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death toll > ten times (or a hundred times...)?what we have had due to?mass executions, > concentration/labor camps,?the firebombing of entire cities, starvation, > rape, body?organ stealing,?disease, and death march deportations.? The > United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely. The Soviet war in Afghanistan was similar in type and scale to the American war in Vietnam. Do you have any evidence suggesting that the Americans behaved better than the Soviets? > America has it's definite shortcomings, but at least we have values and > principles to aspire to (despite sometimes veering off in the wrong > direction, until course corrections are made), instead of merely always > pursuing power for it's own?sake and with no concern for human life and > liberty, which is the approach of our rivals. Every invader claims to have these virtues. Much of the rest of the world (disinterested bystanders, as it were, not just the aggrieved parties) feels that America lacks them in its dealings with other countries. > At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out > very vicious?organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who > want to cripple Western civilization.? Yes, it's terrible that so many > innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the > insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls?as cover > &?impromptu human shields. And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure that America would never be able to threaten other countries again. -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 12:43:09 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 14:43:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 5.16, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it: > >> Christians are bound to try imitate Christ, Muslims are bound to >> try imitate Mohammed. Things are so simple. > > It's not so simple! For centuries Christians went about happily > making war, torturing and killing. Ideas about forgiveness, loving > your enemy, turning the other cheek etc. did not have much sway. Could correct this error? Turning the other cheek is about not react against insult that don't harm you physically, not to let someone to beat you in a pulp. I agree that Christians not always follow their religion. I agree that Muslims not always follow their religion. Usually, when Christians follow their religion they are better humans (more peacefully, more forgiving, more helpful) and when Muslims don't follows their religion they are better humans (more peacefully, more forgiving, more helpful). Do you know about ex-Christians organization and Christians threatening ex-Christians for their change of religion? I know this for Muslims (in UK): http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article3530256.ece We all know that critics of Christianity are routinely harassed, attacked, killed and silenced. Surely that the writer of the "da Vinci Code" is in hiding, because his life is threatened by Christians fundamentalists, his editors are killed, his Japan translator was knifed down and his italian translator too (but he was saved just in time). > Christian America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than > the Muslims have killed Americans, This is unrelated. This is only a measure of skills and powers. This is a weak point of so many leftist, they look at a behaviour and attribute to the person action that he like what is doing. So he must be a evil, a lunatic or misinformed. Why stopping at the past decade? Because don't went before? The 200 dead at Dar-el Salam (by al-Qaeda) are under Clinton presidency. The first attack to the WTC in New York was in the same period. Then the Cole attack. The Kobar Tower attack before. Do you forget them? Easy to forget them. For example, I could say that Palestinians have killed more Italians than Italians have killed Palestinians (I have doubts Italians have killed any Palestinians). What did Italy do to be at the receiving end of terror attacks against synagogues, airport terminals (from the Palestinians) and probably the Bologna bomb at the station in the 1980's? America (not Christian America) killed these Muslims because they were Muslims or for some other reason? The American killed by Muslims were killed because they were Americans (or Christians) or for some other reason? > and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual justification > being that they either deserved it or got in the way. If hundred savages try to separate me from my head and I gun them down this don't make me more evil than them, only better at defending myself. If some helpless bystander is caught in the crossfire, I'm sorry for him, but I will not give my skin for his. The blame go to the party that initiated the aggression and gave a damn to the danger posed to the bystanders or to other innocent parties. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 12:46:40 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 12:46:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <329799.53970.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/5/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > In general it is what we see, but it also depends on the population. > The aforementioned Japanese seem constitutionally less inclined to > borrow money for consumer spending than Americans are, no matter how > cheap and easy it is to get a loan. > News just in - Poking Holes in a Theory on Markets By JOE NOCERA Published: June 5, 2009 Quote: You know what the efficient market hypothesis is, don?t you? It?s a theory that grew out of the University of Chicago?s finance department, and long held sway in academic circles, that the stock market can?t be beaten on any consistent basis because all available information is already built into stock prices. The stock market, in other words, is rational. In the last decade, the efficient market hypothesis, which had been near dogma since the early 1970s, has taken some serious body blows. First came the rise of the behavioral economists, like Richard H. Thaler at the University of Chicago and Robert J. Shiller at Yale, who convincingly showed that mass psychology, herd behavior and the like can have an enormous effect on stock prices ? meaning that perhaps the market isn?t quite so efficient after all. Then came a bit more tangible proof: the dot-com bubble, quickly followed by the housing bubble. Quod erat demonstrandum. etc............. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:12:05 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 23:12:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it : > Il 06/06/2009 5.16, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: >> >> 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it: >> >>> Christians are bound to try imitate Christ, Muslims are bound to >>> try imitate Mohammed. Things are so simple. >> >> It's not so simple! For centuries Christians went about happily >> making war, torturing and killing. Ideas about forgiveness, loving >> your enemy, turning the other cheek etc. did not have much sway. > > Could correct this error? > Turning the other cheek is about not react against insult that don't > harm you physically, not to let someone to beat you in a pulp. "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:27-31 > I agree that Christians not always follow their religion. > I agree that Muslims not always follow their religion. > > Usually, when Christians follow their religion they are better humans > (more peacefully, more forgiving, more helpful) and when Muslims don't > follows their religion they are better humans (more peacefully, more > forgiving, more helpful). > > Do you know about ex-Christians organization and Christians threatening > ex-Christians for their change of religion? > I know this for Muslims (in UK): > http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article3530256.ece Does the burning of Christian heretics count? The fundamentalist Islamic states are similar to mediaeval Christian states. It is *secularism*, not the content of religious dogma, that has got rid of these practices. > We all know that critics of Christianity are routinely harassed, attacked, > killed and silenced. Surely that the writer of the "da Vinci Code" is in > hiding, because his life is threatened by Christians fundamentalists, his > editors are killed, his Japan translator was knifed down and his italian > translator too (but he was saved just in time). In an earlier era, he would have been burned at the stake. >> Christian America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than >> the Muslims have killed Americans, > > This is unrelated. > This is only a measure of skills and powers. > > This is a weak point of so many leftist, they look at a behaviour and > attribute to the person action that he like what is doing. So he must be a > evil, a lunatic or misinformed. > > Why stopping at the past decade? > Because don't went before? The 200 dead at Dar-el Salam (by al-Qaeda) > are under Clinton presidency. The first attack to the WTC in New York > was in the same period. Then the Cole attack. The Kobar Tower attack > before. Do you forget them? Easy to forget them. > > For example, I could say that Palestinians have killed more Italians > than Italians have killed Palestinians (I have doubts Italians have > killed any Palestinians). What did Italy do to be at the receiving end > of terror attacks against synagogues, airport terminals (from the > Palestinians) and probably the Bologna bomb at the station in the 1980's? > > America (not Christian America) killed these Muslims because they were > Muslims or for some other reason? > The American killed by Muslims were killed because they were Americans > (or Christians) or for some other reason? > > >> and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual justification >> being that they either deserved it or got in the way. > > If hundred savages try to separate me from my head and I gun them down > this don't make me more evil than them, only better at defending myself. > If some helpless bystander is caught in the crossfire, I'm sorry for > him, but I will not give my skin for his. The blame go to the party that > initiated the aggression and gave a damn to the danger posed to the > bystanders or to other innocent parties. When your country is invaded and you are killed if you resist the invasion or get in the way, who is the aggressor? -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:23:26 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 23:23:26 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations In-Reply-To: References: <329799.53970.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/6 BillK : > Quote: > You know what the efficient market hypothesis is, don?t you? It?s a > theory that grew out of the University of Chicago?s finance > department, and long held sway in academic circles, that the stock > market can?t be beaten on any consistent basis because all available > information is already built into stock prices. The stock market, in > other words, is rational. > > In the last decade, the efficient market hypothesis, which had been > near dogma since the early 1970s, has taken some serious body blows. > First came the rise of the behavioral economists, like Richard H. > Thaler at the University of Chicago and Robert J. Shiller at Yale, who > convincingly showed that mass psychology, herd behavior and the like > can have an enormous effect on stock prices ? meaning that perhaps the > market isn?t quite so efficient after all. Then came a bit more > tangible proof: the dot-com bubble, quickly followed by the housing > bubble. Quod erat demonstrandum. > etc............. The efficient market hypothesis is perhaps a misnomer. It doesn't mean that the market is rational, just that it isn't possible in general to beat the market by being cleverer than anyone else. Stock prices incorporate all available information, including peoples' tendency to be irrational. If you could predict irrationality better than the market can, you could easily become rich. -- Stathis Papaioannou From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:49:37 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 23:19:37 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <580930c20906051252r2a672d96k334cc9f71035c6e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <580930c20906051252r2a672d96k334cc9f71035c6e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0906060649p7be4bbbgddc13660d9337ecc@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/6 Stefano Vaj : > 2009/6/5 painlord2k at libero.it : >> Christians are bound to try imitate Christ. http://www.theonion.com/content/news/christ_kills_two_injures_seven_in Christ Kills Two, Injures Seven In Abortion-Clinic Attack HUNTSVILLE, AL?Jesus Christ, son of God and noted pro-life activist, killed two and critically wounded seven others when He opened fire in the waiting room of a Huntsville abortion clinic Tuesday. Security guards at the Women's Medical Clinic of Huntsville were able to disarm the Messiah before He could reload His weapon, a secondhand Glock 9mm pistol that authorities said He purchased legally at a Jackson, MS, sporting-goods store. "Abortion is a sin," said Christ as He was led away in handcuffs. "It is an abomination in the eyes of Me." Witnesses said the attack, which took the lives of Dr. Nelson Woodring, 51, and clinic nurse Danielle Costa, 29, came from "out of nowhere." "He walked up to the admissions desk and asked if He could see Dr. Woodring," receptionist Iris Reid said. "The next thing I knew, He was shouting Biblical verses and opening fire on everything moving." "It was horrible," said injured clinic nurse Jessica Combs, recovering at a local hospital with bullet wounds to the leg and abdomen. "He put his hands over Dr. Woodring's head and told him He forgave him for his sins, and then He shot him right in the face." Huntsville police officials are not certain how the Messiah was able to bypass clinic guards and proceed undetected past security cameras and into the clinic waiting room, where He produced the gun from its hiding place in the folds of His robe. Federal investigators are similarly baffled, saying that the heavily armed Christ had moved in "mysterious ways." Speaking to reporters from His holding cell, Christ, 33, said He had "no regrets" about what He had done. "As I said in John 16:21, every life is precious," Christ said. "This means every life, not just those who have already been born. My father, the Lord, feels the same way I do. In Jeremiah 1:5, He said unto the prophet Jeremiah, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.' The unborn fetus is a sacred, living creation of my Father in Heaven and should be treated as such." Added Christ: "What if the Virgin Mary had decided to abort me? Certainly she must have been tempted to do so. After all, it wasn't even her decision to conceive me in the first place. But in the end, she made the right decision, bringing her pregnancy to term and giving the world a Savior. Blessed is she among women." According to legal experts, if convicted, Christ could face the death penalty. "The state of Alabama has the death penalty, and this crime is certainly the sort that would be construed as a capital offense," University of Michigan law professor Arthur Lipscomb said. "With the right judge and jury, Christ could very well be put to death yet again." In such a case, Lipscomb said, Alabama would likely use lethal injection rather than crucifixion. Christ said He is unafraid of the prospect of execution. "Those who know me know that I am willing to die for the sins of others, whether those sins be avarice, slothfulness, false idolatry or the butchering of unborn life," Christ said. "The bottom line is, abortion stops a beating heart." Tuesday's shooting is not Christ's first brush with the law. On April 8, 29, He was arrested in the Roman province of Judea for alleged false claims to the throne of the Kingdom of Israel. On Jan. 11, 1996, He and six other pro-life activists were jailed for blocking the entrance to a Cheektowaga, NY, abortion clinic. In October 1997, He was arrested for plotting to mail anthrax-laced packages to two dozen abortion doctors across the U.S. "Abortion is an abomination. It is a sin. It is murder," Christ said. "I only did what any good Christian would have done." Christ's followers have been overwhelmingly supportive of their leader. "As it says in Psalm 139:13-16, 'For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body,'" said Ralph Anson of the Houston-based Every Life Is Precious. "Those people at that clinic were killers, and they deserved to die." "We may not understand everything He does, but we must believe it is for the best," said Rev. Joseph Abernathy, minister at First United Baptist Church of Huntsville. "As Christians, it is not our duty to question what our Savior does. We can only live according to His example." -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 14:50:14 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:50:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2A8226.2090605@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 14.21, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > Even one American death is too much if the invasion was evil and > unnecessary; but as Stefano said, the correct comparison is with the > number of American civilians killed by Iraqis on American soil. If this comparison is right, how many American civilians on American soil were killed by Nazi Germany soldiers and how many Nazi Germany civilians on Nazi Germany soil were killed by American soldiers? Your stance is the same of the pacifists in the '30 and '40. If I see a woman raped and I have the means to stop the aggressor the right move is to do nothing. Because the rapist did me nothing until now, so I have no reason to do anything to him. Maybe the raping is something cultural and I have no right to judge it. >> Americans (even those in uniform) tend to feel very sad about >> innocents getting killed due to the fighting... > Whereas the soldiers of other, evil countries are happy when they > kill civilians in a country they are invading. When the soldier of Imperial Japan in Nanchino used newborns to practice with bayonets skill and go raping around so much that the river become red of blood, I would not say they are happy, only they appear to consider it right. >> But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone >> had the combined economic, technological and military power that >> the U.S. possesses? I shudder at the very thought... >> >> A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim >> death toll ten times (or a hundred times...) what we have had due >> to mass executions, concentration/labor camps, the firebombing of >> entire cities, starvation, rape, body organ stealing, disease, and >> death march deportations. The United States has tried, at least up >> to a point, to fight humanely. > > The Soviet war in Afghanistan was similar in type and scale to the > American war in Vietnam. Do you have any evidence suggesting that > the Americans behaved better than the Soviets? Soviet used chemical weapons in Afghanistan. They, surely, were much harsher than Americans but the larger damages to Afghanistan was done by the Warlords there (Hekmatiar for one) that gave a damn to the lives of the Afghan people after the Soviet gave up and the land was there for grab. >> America has it's definite shortcomings, but at least we have values >> and principles to aspire to (despite sometimes veering off in the >> wrong direction, until course corrections are made), instead of >> merely always pursuing power for it's own sake and with no concern >> for human life and liberty, which is the approach of our rivals. > > Every invader claims to have these virtues. Much of the rest of the > world (disinterested bystanders, as it were, not just the aggrieved > parties) feels that America lacks them in its dealings with other > countries. Many of the disinterested bystanders sold weapons to Saddam, for example. Very disinterested they are, but mainly on how he used them. For example, the France sold nuclear technology to Saddam, if Israel had not destroyed Osiriak, maybe he would have wisely used it against the Iranians as he used the chemical technology German gave him to produce gas and gas the Kurds. Well, we could had let him continue to kill around. He never bothered you, so it is not your problem. I have the idea that if a white Christian male did the same you would be all aroused and offended and would claim for him to be stopped and throw in jail. >> At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to >> root out very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against >> humanity and who want to cripple Western civilization. Yes, it's >> terrible that so many innocent Muslims have died in this war, but >> often their own people (the insurgents), hide amongst them and use >> these unfortunate souls as cover & impromptu human shields. > > And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that > innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding > among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure > that America would never be able to threaten other countries again. I'm sure many "pacifist" (in Italy someone call them pacifalse) are not a bit interested in the lives of the victims. This because when there are hundreds of more victims from not-white, not-christians killers, they are silent and in other matters occupied (holidays, protesting for the cutting of tree in their cities). Pacifism is simply a tool to obtain political power, not take any responsibility for what happen and generally do nothing you don't like. Then, when something happen they don't like, strangely (but not so) they find interesting justifications to aggress the people they don't like. For example, we had in these days a number of fire bombings against the Lega Nord chapters (the alleged, by the press, xenophobic, racist, extreme right, blah, blah, blah...) or an arson attempt against Casa Pound (real, self-described fascists). For example, I never hear any complain from pacifists when this happen http://middleeast.about.com/b/2009/05/27/forgotten-massacre-the-hazara-of-afghanistan.htm >> As Ahmad Rashid writes in Taliban, still the best book on the >> subject >> >> What followed was another brutal massacre, genocidal in its >> ferocity, as the Taliban took revenge on their losses the previous >> year. A Taliban commander later said that Mullah Omar had given >> them permission to kill for two hours, but they had killed for two >> days. The Taliban went on a killing frenzy, driving their pick-ups >> up and down the narrow streets of Mazar shooting to the left and >> right and killing everything that moved ? shop owners, cart >> pullers, women and children shoppers and even goats and donkeys. >> Contrary to all injunctions of Islam, which demands immediate >> burial, bodies were left to rot on the streets. ?They were shooting >> without warning at everybody who happened to be on the street, >> without discriminating between men, women and children. Soon the >> streets were covered with dead bodies and blood. No one was allowed >> to bury the corpses for the first six days. Dogs were eating human >> flesh and going mad and soon the smell became intolerable,? said a >> male Tajik who managed to escape the massacre. When was the last time the American supreme commander gave the permission to kill indiscriminately for two hours and the troops killed indiscriminately for two days? And no one went to court martial and was hanged? Do you want to talk with them without preconditions of any type? Maybe, if you sit down with them and sing kumbaya they could become your friends and all could go to a nudist camp. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 14:55:05 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:55:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906060755y25244ccewc58df55c47a2f76a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it : > I agree that Christians not always follow their religion. > I agree that Muslims not always follow their religion. Indeed. My concern is that they often do. :-) -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 14:55:38 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:55:38 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0906060649p7be4bbbgddc13660d9337ecc@mail.gmail.com> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <580930c20906051252r2a672d96k334cc9f71035c6e5@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0906060649p7be4bbbgddc13660d9337ecc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2A836A.7070302@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 15.49, Emlyn ha scritto: > 2009/6/6 Stefano Vaj: >> 2009/6/5 painlord2k at libero.it: >>> Christians are bound to try imitate Christ. > > http://www.theonion.com/content/news/christ_kills_two_injures_seven_in > > Christ Kills Two, Injures Seven In Abortion-Clinic Attack Do you want a list of killing and terrorist attacks by people named Mohammed (in all it transliterations)? Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 15:35:20 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:35:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <4A2A8226.2090605@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <4A2A8226.2090605@libero.it> Message-ID: On 6/6/09, painlord2k wrote: > When was the last time the American supreme commander gave the permission > to kill indiscriminately for two hours and the troops killed > indiscriminately for two days? And no one went to court martial and was > hanged? > > Do you want to talk with them without preconditions of any type? > Maybe, if you sit down with them and sing kumbaya they could become your > friends and all could go to a nudist camp. > I suddenly have the feeling that I'd like to talk about Stefano's apple pie recipe, BillK From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 15:49:45 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:49:45 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2A9019.8060106@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 15.12, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it: >> Il 06/06/2009 5.16, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: >>> 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it: > "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, "Inimicus" not "hostiles", there is a difference but never mind. > do good to those who hate you, US troops, in fact, rebuilt much of the infrastructures of Iraq and are doing the same in Afghanistan. They sent out doctors to help civillians, give out food and medicines. Open schools where Taliban destroy them, kill the teachers and throw acid to the pupils (usually if they are female pupils). > bless those who curse you, A curse never killed anyone. And blesses cost nothing. > pray for those who mistreat you. Why not? Pray for the rapist after you have stopped him. Are you advocating to let the rapist to rape without interferences? > Does the burning of Christian heretics count? This was done by the secular hand (the government) after the Church found the guilty of heresy. This because the government (Kings) found that heresy was a threat to their power. People, usually, preferred to be tried by the Inquisition than the secular tribunals for the same crimes. > The fundamentalist Islamic states are similar to mediaeval Christian > states. It is *secularism*, not the content of religious dogma, that > has got rid of these practices. Unfortunately, we are speaking about now, not then. Secular communism and Nazism used these practices a few decades ago. So secularism or atheism can kill as much as religious fanatics. >> We all know that critics of Christianity are routinely harassed, >> attacked, killed and silenced. Surely that the writer of the "da >> Vinci Code" is in hiding, because his life is threatened by >> Christians fundamentalists, his editors are killed, his Japan >> translator was knifed down and his Italian translator too (but he >> was saved just in time). > In an earlier era, he would have been burned at the stake. But we live here and now. Not there. Then, probably, he would be burned down by the King's tribunal order not the Church one. > When your country is invaded and you are killed if you resist the > invasion or get in the way, who is the aggressor? Last time it happened, Italy was the aggressor. Italy was invaded by the Allies, cities bombed, civilians killed at scores, women raped (search for "Marocchinate" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate or see the movie "Two Women" with Sophia Loren). > The mayor of Esperia (a comune in the Province of Frosinone), > reported that in his town, 700 women out of 2,500 inhabitants were > raped and that some had died as a result. According to Italian > sources, more than 7,000 Italian civilians, including women, children > and some men, were raped by Goumiers.[3] Well, the French had the gut to try and sentence many of these for the rapes and the killings they did. By the way, from the name you can guess the religion of these soldiers. The other mass rapes I remember in WW2 were the rapes done by the Soviet soldiers as they entered in Germany. Not exactly Christians ones. But probably the Axis soldiers did as much rapes as them, if not more. But this don't change the fact that Italy (and Germany) were the aggressors and deserve to have their government toppled and more friendlier and humane governments installed. Or you disagree on this? Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 15:53:52 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:53:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <4A2A8226.2090605@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2A9110.702@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 17.35, BillK ha scritto: > On 6/6/09, painlord2k wrote: > >> When was the last time the American supreme commander gave the permission >> to kill indiscriminately for two hours and the troops killed >> indiscriminately for two days? And no one went to court martial and was >> hanged? >> Do you want to talk with them without preconditions of any type? >> Maybe, if you sit down with them and sing kumbaya they could become your >> friends and all could go to a nudist camp. > I suddenly have the feeling that I'd like to talk about Stefano's > apple pie recipe, Some unpalatable truth? Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jun 6 15:56:25 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:56:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906060039w1fc867dahe444f1e860ea2cd9@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> <2d6187670906060039w1fc867dahe444f1e860ea2cd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090606104637.0232a8c8@satx.rr.com> At 12:39 AM 6/6/2009 -0700, John Grigg wrote: >don't you realize this list exists first and foremost as an organ to >disseminate information about your work as a writer? Well, that's always been *my* understanding, but oddly enough a few curmudgeons have been known to disagree. :) Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jun 6 16:16:09 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:16:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: <4A2A9110.702@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <4A2A8226.2090605@libero.it> <4A2A9110.702@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090606111415.02315ac0@satx.rr.com> >>I suddenly have the feeling that I'd like to talk about Stefano's >>apple pie recipe, > >Some unpalatable truth? > >Mirco That is completely unwarranted. I feel sure Stefano's apple pie is not only palatable but delicious. From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 16:43:13 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 02:43:13 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A2A9019.8060106@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> <4A2A9019.8060106@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it : >> Does the burning of Christian heretics count? > > This was done by the secular hand (the government) after the Church > found the guilty of heresy. This because the government (Kings) found > that heresy was a threat to their power. > People, usually, preferred to be tried by the Inquisition than the > secular tribunals for the same crimes. So the Church identified the heretics, asked the king to forgive them, but the king had them burned anyway because they constituted a threat to his power? >> The fundamentalist Islamic states are similar to mediaeval Christian >> states. It is *secularism*, not the content of religious dogma, that >> has got rid of these practices. > > Unfortunately, we are speaking about now, not then. > Secular communism and Nazism used these practices a few decades ago. > So secularism or atheism can kill as much as religious fanatics. Yes, but the evil perpetrated by religion of whatever sort has been inversely proportional to the degree of secularisation in the society in which the religion operates. >>> We all know that critics of Christianity are routinely harassed, >>> attacked, killed and silenced. Surely that the writer of the "da >>> Vinci Code" is in hiding, because his life is threatened by >>> Christians fundamentalists, his editors are killed, his Japan >>> translator was knifed down and his Italian translator too (but he >>> was saved just in time). > >> In an earlier era, he would have been burned at the stake. > > But we live here and now. Not there. > Then, probably, he would be burned down by the King's tribunal order not > the Church one. You may as well say that adulterers in Saudi Arabia are executed at the order of the state, not at the order of the religious authorities. >> When your country is invaded and you are killed if you resist the >> invasion or get in the way, who is the aggressor? > > Last time it happened, Italy was the aggressor. > > Italy was invaded by the Allies, cities bombed, civilians killed at > scores, women raped (search for "Marocchinate" > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate > or see the movie "Two Women" with Sophia Loren). > >> The mayor of Esperia (a comune in the Province of Frosinone), >> reported that in his town, 700 women out of 2,500 inhabitants were >> raped and that some had died as a result. According to Italian >> sources, more than 7,000 Italian civilians, including women, children >> and some men, were raped by Goumiers.[3] > > Well, the French had the gut to try and sentence many of these for the rapes > and the killings they did. By the way, from the name you can guess the > religion of these soldiers. > > The other mass rapes I remember in WW2 were the rapes done by the Soviet > soldiers as they entered in Germany. Not exactly Christians ones. > But probably the Axis soldiers did as much rapes as them, if not more. > > But this don't change the fact that Italy (and Germany) were the aggressors > and deserve to have their government toppled and more friendlier and humane > governments installed. Italy and Germany were in the same position as America is now in invading Iraq. -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 16:47:39 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:47:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> Message-ID: <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> Il 03/06/2009 13.15, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/3 spike: > >> Hmmm, depends on how one defines the term "need." Do we need airbags in our >> Detroits? People who have a ton of money might argue that we do, or that >> they are a good health investment. Others disagree. If one saved money by >> not having an airbag, perhaps one could afford to move to a neighborhood >> where she is less likely to be slain by the local thugs for instance. The >> airbag/slum paradigm is a good way to view the question of the medical >> establishment overtesting. > > Unlike airbags, medical treatments and even tests can have adverse > consequences separate from their financial cost. Every treatment has > possible complications, and every test has a false positive rate, and > may lead to more tests and potentially dangerous procedures. I know of a child decapitated by airbag. And many people hurted by airbags. Airbags, albeit useful, cost money and can be dangerous. > This is the sort of decision doctors make all the time, and there are > guidelines based on research for what tests and procedures should be > performed in a particular situation. And the guidelines change with the time. > Most private doctors I encounter don't overservice, not because they > are afraid of the government or the insurance company, but because of > a sense of professional ethics. Extracting too much wealth in too short time usually impact the ability to extract more wealth in longer times. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 17:00:42 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 03:00:42 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it : >> This is the sort of decision doctors make all the time, and there are >> guidelines based on research for what tests and procedures should be >> performed in a particular situation. > > And the guidelines change with the time. Of course, everything is tentative in science. Some treatments we use today will be eventually shown to be useless or harmful, but we can only follow the best evidence we have at a particular time. -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 18:02:09 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:02:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2AAF21.9040007@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 19.00, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it: > >>> This is the sort of decision doctors make all the time, and there are >>> guidelines based on research for what tests and procedures should be >>> performed in a particular situation. >> And the guidelines change with the time. > > Of course, everything is tentative in science. Some treatments we use > today will be eventually shown to be useless or harmful, but we can > only follow the best evidence we have at a particular time. The main point is that the decision is only of the patient. Where did "informed decision" by the patient fit in this. The doctor choose, the government choose, and the patients pay. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 19:42:14 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:42:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> <4A2A9019.8060106@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2AC696.6060507@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 18.43, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it: >>> Does the burning of Christian heretics count? >> This was done by the secular hand (the government) after the Church >> found the guilty of heresy. This because the government (Kings) found >> that heresy was a threat to their power. >> People, usually, preferred to be tried by the Inquisition than the >> secular tribunals for the same crimes. > So the Church identified the heretics, asked the king to forgive them, > but the king had them burned anyway because they constituted a threat > to his power? No, many times they sent inquisitors and the inquisitors told "Not guilty as charged". This happened often with the women accused of witchcraft, with the Jews accused to sacrifice Christian children and so on. >>> The fundamentalist Islamic states are similar to mediaeval Christian >>> states. It is *secularism*, not the content of religious dogma, that >>> has got rid of these practices. >> Unfortunately, we are speaking about now, not then. >> Secular communism and Nazism used these practices a few decades ago. >> So secularism or atheism can kill as much as religious fanatics. > > Yes, but the evil perpetrated by religion of whatever sort has been > inversely proportional to the degree of secularisation in the society > in which the religion operates. Pray tell, my brother, Why do dictators kill and make war? Is it for glory; for things, for beliefs, for hatred, for power? Yes, but more, because they can. The degree of evil anyone is able to do is proportional to his power. This is because less power have the government less evil it is able to do. The evil secularists do and did is proportional at their power. Nothing different from other men. >> But we live here and now. Not there. >> Then, probably, he would be burned down by the King's tribunal order not >> the Church one. > You may as well say that adulterers in Saudi Arabia are executed at > the order of the state, not at the order of the religious authorities. There is not division of power between secular and religious authority in Islam. Islam regulate all aspect of the life of a submitted, from the moment of the birth to the moment of the dead, comprising the way one believer must wipe is ass (and I'm not kidding on this) or how he must sleep. > Italy and Germany were in the same position as America is now in invading Iraq. Empty slogan I would say. Iraq didn't invaded Kuwait? Iraq didn't invaded Iran? Iraq didn't gassed the Kurds? Iraq didn't killed scores of Shiite Iraqis? Iraq didn't killed political opposition's components? Iraq didn't signed a binding armistice deal with the UN Coalition that liberated Kuwait to avoid the toppling of the government? Iraq didn't break the agreement in many ways? Did the US annexed the land conquered? Did the US build and used mass extermination camps or forced works camps? Did the US killed their peaceful opposition? Did the US jailed or killed the US people that opposed the war? I can only say that people like you, then, opposed the war in Europe. This changed when Hitler attacked the USSR. Before it was a war between capitalists. Then become a war against fascism. Things change when it is what you have dear that is in danger to be destroyed. Until them, you are free to preach whatever you like, it cost nothing to you. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From moulton at moulton.com Sat Jun 6 20:23:51 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:23:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> Message-ID: <1244319831.32199.75.camel@hayek> On Sat, 2009-06-06 at 14:43 +0200, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > > I agree that Christians not always follow their religion. > I agree that Muslims not always follow their religion. > > Usually, when Christians follow their religion they are better humans > (more peacefully, more forgiving, more helpful) and when Muslims don't > follows their religion they are better humans (more peacefully, more > forgiving, more helpful). > One obvious problem with the above is with defining "their religion" in both the Christian and Muslim cases. In both religions there are numerous doctrinal differences among persons who claim to be followers and in both religions this has led to violence. Another issue to consider is what the person would be following if they were not following a particular religion. A careful consideration of history will show that painting one religion as somehow better than another is not always valid. A final point to remember is that erroneously lumping all persons of a religion into an aggregation labeled as violent and immoral might have the unfortunate tendency to enhance the credibility of those persons who really are more violent. Fred From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jun 6 20:48:29 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:48:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Sideways Flagrant Self-Promotion In-Reply-To: <580930c20906060448m24bdb3absdaf7e1b2f7deeebb@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> <580930c20906060448m24bdb3absdaf7e1b2f7deeebb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090606153819.022e6128@satx.rr.com> At 01:48 PM 6/6/2009 +0200, Stefano wrote: >I do not really believe you could ever write fiction *entirely* >off-topic. :-) This list has certainly contributed to my writing, especially in THE SPIKE, THE LAST MORTAL GENERATION and YEAR MILLION. But sometimes even more directly: a few years ago, occasional ExI poster David Lubkin solicited a story from me for STROON, his proposed tribute anthology for the brilliant sf writer "Cordwainer Smith" (actually the late Colonel Dr. Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger, psywar expert and godson of Sun Yet Sen), author of the astonishing Instrumentality of Mankind stories. I eventually wrote a long story, "The Ruined Queen of Harvest World," but Mr. Lubkin adamantly declined to respond to my emails or even to my piteous calls for his attention on this list, and via other extropes who know him. Robert Silverberg, another invitee, had the same rather dismaying experience. But wait, there's an up-side to this doleful tale: I sent the story to the editor of the notable online site Tor.com, who pays *extremely* well for short science fiction stories. He bought it, for a lot more money than I think Mr. Lubkin would have offered, had he offered any. An extropic outcome! The story will be up on Tor.com in mid-summer, I'm told. Damien Broderick From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Jun 6 23:34:42 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 01:34:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <1244319831.32199.75.camel@hayek> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> <1244319831.32199.75.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <4A2AFD12.3070005@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 22.23, Fred C. Moulton ha scritto: > One obvious problem with the above is with defining "their religion" > in both the Christian and Muslim cases. In both religions there > are numerous doctrinal differences among persons who claim to be > followers and in both religions this has led to violence. Then we limit the analysis to the numerous doctrinal commonalities of all groups that say they follow a particular religion. We take away the groups that are too small to be representative. For example, I just found this interesting (from my pint of view) fatwa of al-Azhar compiled by a respected scholar in the '50 > 1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab > (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to > follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly > narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, > everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can > transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for > doing so. Then we have the same institution where POTUS Obama just gave a speech that give out these rulings: http://persecutedbyislam.blogspot.com/2007/10/al-azhars-fatwa-against-apostates.html >> This Fatawa describes how an Egyptian man turned apostate and the >> subsequent punishment prescribed for him by the Al-Azhr Fatawa >> council. The following translation is a rough guide: In the Name >> of Allah the Most Beneficient the Most Merciful. Al-Azhr Council >> of Fatawa. This question was presented by Mr. Ahmed Darwish and >> brought forward by [name obscured] who is of German nationality. A >> man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is Egyptian >> married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the husband >> would join the Christian faith and doctrine. 1) What is the >> Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the punishments >> prescribed for this act? 2) Are his children considered Muslim or >> Christian? >> >> The Answer: All praise is to Allah, the Lord of the Universe and >> salutations on the leader of the righteous, our master Muhammed, >> his family and all of his companions. Thereafter: This man has >> committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he >> does not then he must be killed according to Shariah. As far as >> his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are >> considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then >> if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam >> and they do not repent they must be killed and Allah knows best. >> Seal of Al-Azhr Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr. Abdullah >> al-Mishadd (??? ???? ??????) Now, I have, in past, looked for al-Azhar or another respected Higher Learning Institution ruling for freedom of religion. Never found one. Did al-Azhar ever retracted this ruling? It was written in the 1978. > Another issue to consider is what the person would be following if > they were not following a particular religion. A careful > consideration of history will show that painting one religion as > somehow better than another is not always valid. Do you agree with the fatwa I cited or not? Is it Islamic or not? Is it accepted by all Muslims or not? > A final point to remember is that erroneously lumping all persons of > a religion into an aggregation labeled as violent and immoral might > have the unfortunate tendency to enhance the credibility of those > persons who really are more violent. I never told this. Surely many Muslims are so only in name (like many Christians and Hindus and Buddhists) and would never kill anyone or rob anyone. But the same could be told of Germans under Hitler rule. Did this changed the outcome? But, we could delve in the different school of Islam and try to debate what of them are acceptable and what not. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503547222&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar >> Speaking of the authority of the punishment and its being genuine >> and based on the authentic sources of Islam, Sheikh `Attiyah Saqr, >> former Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states: >> >> "It is not right to deny the punishment of apostasy claiming that >> it has not been reported in the Qur'an, because it has been >> recorded in the mutawatir (Hadith which has been reported by at >> least four of the Companions in different times and places in a >> way that make a person sure that such Hadith is not fabricated) and >> the non-mutawatir Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessing be >> upon him). Hudud (Islamic punishment specified for certain crimes) >> may, of course, be based on the non-mutawatir Sunnah." >> >> Detailing the issue and showing some of the evidence for the >> punishment of apostasy, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf >> Al-Qaradawi, states: >> >> "All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished. >> However, they differ regarding the punishment itself. The majority >> of them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be >> sentenced to death. >> >> Many authentic Hadiths have been reported in this regard. Ibn >> `Abbas reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) >> said, "Whoever changes his religion, you kill him." (Reported by >> all the group except Muslim, and at-Tabarani also reported it with >> a sound chain of narrators. Also recorded in Majma` Az-Zawa'id by >> Al-Haythamiy.) >> >> There is also the Hadith of Ibn Mas`ud that the Prophet (peace and >> blessings be upon him) said, "The blood of a Muslim individual who >> bears witness that there is no god but Allah and that I am the >> Messenger of Allah, is not to be shed except in three cases: in >> retaliation (in murder crimes), married adulterers (and >> adulteresses), and the one who abandons his religion and forsakes >> the Muslim community." (Reported by the Group) >> >> The actual example of one of the greatest Companions, `Ali ibn Abi >> Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) gives credit to this also. >> He himself carried out the punishment on some people who had >> deified him. He gave them three days respite to repent and go back >> to their senses. When they proved adamant, he put them to fire.? Try debate this. Are these not representative on Islam? If they are not, who is? Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2158 - Release Date: 06/06/09 05:53:00 From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 02:33:52 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:33:52 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <4A2AAF21.9040007@libero.it> References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> <4A2AAF21.9040007@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it : > Il 06/06/2009 19.00, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: >> >> 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it: >> >>>> This is the sort of decision doctors make all the time, and there are >>>> guidelines based on research for what tests and procedures should be >>>> performed in a particular situation. >>> >>> And the guidelines change with the time. >> >> Of course, everything is tentative in science. Some treatments we use >> today will be eventually shown to be useless or harmful, but we can >> only follow the best evidence we have at a particular time. > > The main point is that the decision is only of the patient. > Where did "informed decision" by the patient fit in this. > > The doctor choose, the government choose, and the patients pay. The decision is the patient's but the patient will probably rely on the advice of the doctor more than when buying a car, for example. And even if the patient does his own research, an environment where drug companies and other vendors of medical products or services can advertise freely will result in a bias towards unnecessary treatment. Look at how much money is spent on "alternative" therapies with no scientific evidence in their favour whatsoever, and extrapolate this to therapies that are not completely inert, but which lack evidence to show that they are helpful in a particular situation. You might say that it's OK if people are willing to pay, but apart from the fact that these therapies may do more harm than good, it does add needlessly to the total cost of health care, and takes resources away from where they might yield greater benefit. -- Stathis Papaioannou From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 03:54:16 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (p0stfuturist at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War Message-ID: <310587.46371.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> The Soviets set in motion the chains of events leading to today's war in Afghanistan; the Soviets were very foolish to have made same mistake about 30 years ago in Afghanistan that the US made in Vietnam about 45 years ago. The Soviets didn't learn anything by watching what America did in Vietnam starting in '65? >The Soviet war in Afghanistan was similar in type and scale to the >American war in Vietnam. Do you have any evidence suggesting that the >Americans behaved better than the Soviets? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 12:44:10 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:44:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/6 John Grigg : ?it was only a matter > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres. Bush > had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, > but?obviously not?on a false?pretense regarding WMD. > ### This is stupid. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 12:44:10 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:44:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/6 John Grigg : ?it was only a matter > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres. Bush > had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, > but?obviously not?on a false?pretense regarding WMD. > ### This is stupid. Rafal From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Jun 7 11:33:10 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 13:33:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: References: <1243894566.6870.796.camel@hayek> <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> <4A2AAF21.9040007@libero.it> Message-ID: <4A2BA576.40405@libero.it> Il 07/06/2009 4.33, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it: >> The doctor choose, the government choose, and the patients pay. > The decision is the patient's but the patient will probably rely on > the advice of the doctor more than when buying a car, for example. True, to a point. Without a real market, it is impossible to develop real alternative to the current situation. For example, it is not possible to have comparative quotations on the value/cost of some procedures, like happen with the car market. I want know the market value of a car? a look on-line or I buy a magazine about cars. Why I can not know how much is the price/cost of a surgical procedure? > And > even if the patient does his own research, an environment where drug > companies and other vendors of medical products or services can > advertise freely will result in a bias towards unnecessary treatment. Better a bias towards unnecessary treatments than a bias towards not enough treatments. Then, in a free market, this become a client decision, not a medical decision. The main point is to make possible for the buyers to know what is buying and how much is the cost of it. > Look at how much money is spent on "alternative" therapies with no > scientific evidence in their favour whatsoever, and extrapolate this > to therapies that are not completely inert, but which lack evidence to > show that they are helpful in a particular situation. Well, I call this "extended experimentation". If it is done with the informed agreement of the patient, there is nothing wrong. Main point is to make sure the data about the treatment is recorded and used to gauge his value. > You might say > that it's OK if people are willing to pay, So I do. > but apart from the fact > that these therapies may do more harm than good, "May" is the word, we are not sure. Until the patient is correctly informed, it is his choice. > it does add > needlessly to the total cost of health care, and takes resources away > from where they might yield greater benefit. It is not your or my or anyone right to choose how to use someone else money. It is the right of the people owning the money to choose how use it. Who are you or someone else to rule how they must use their wealth? Are you morally better than them? Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 06/06/09 18:04:00 From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 12:08:22 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:08:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <4A2BA576.40405@libero.it> References: <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> <4A2AAF21.9040007@libero.it> <4A2BA576.40405@libero.it> Message-ID: On 6/7/09, painlord2k wrote: > It is not your or my or anyone right to choose how to use someone else > money. It is the right of the people owning the money to choose how use it. > Who are you or someone else to rule how they must use their wealth? Are you > morally better than them? > Yea! I don't want no doctor telling me what my disease is or what treatments might fix it. Just because he's got degrees and stuff and years of experience. How dare he! I'll do a google search and know just as much as he does. Get rid of all doctors - they're just wasting my money. I admit I can't do operations on myself. But my friend Fred could do the operation for me, if I printed out the instructions from google. Really, the whole medical profession is just a big con trick. We could all save loads of money by getting rid of them. BillK From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Jun 7 14:22:14 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:22:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2BCD16.2000807@libero.it> Il 06/06/2009 14.44, Rafal Smigrodzki ha scritto: > 2009/6/6 John Grigg: > > it was only a matter >> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist >> organizations and became a major supporter of them. I just wish Pres. Bush >> had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, >> but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD. >> > ### This is stupid. Yes. The invasion was not justified by WMD (this is what the press pressed because what bleed lead). The war was legally justified by the repeated violation of the armistice clauses. If the Iraq's government didn't respected the clauses, any and all powers had the right to resume the combat operations and topple the Iraq's government as they feel fit. Rights don't need justifications when used. People could disagree on the need to do so, or if it was a wise move or if it netted any gains. But the legal justification is correct. MSM journalists are notorious to write about stuff they don't know or don't understand and always in a such way that adhere to their chosen "narrative" and not to the truth. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 06/06/09 18:04:00 From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jun 7 17:24:03 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:24:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: <4A2BCD16.2000807@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <4A2BCD16.2000807@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090607122253.02325158@satx.rr.com> At 04:22 PM 6/7/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote: >MSM journalists are notorious to write about stuff they don't know >or don't understand and always in a such way that adhere to their >chosen "narrative" and not to the truth. But thank dog, at least that never happens on the ExI list. Damien Broderick From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Jun 7 17:53:55 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 10:53:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com> What's the question here, and what's really driving the diverse views? Our emotions, let's face it, very often drive our initial answers to many queries, at which point our rational engines kick in to supply a nice "rationalization" of the answers we want to obtain. In the present case, some people are biased in America's favor, and others resent the U.S. Why America? Easy: since the end of WWII, the U.S. has been the "big cheese" among nations, and so of course garners the most attention. It also follows that the moral question "Is America doing the right thing" far outweighs "Is Burkina Faso doing the right thing?" As such, this very question provides a critical thinker a great working example so that he or she might examine his or her own biases and, if there is any interest, try to overcome those biases. Standing back from just the current "Death Toll Imbalance" and taking an historical view, all throughout history invading armies commit atrocities. And contrary to what some here have written, indeed the soldiers often enjoy it. Armed conflict of any kind does tend to bring out the worst in us. The good news is that the levels of atrocities are falling off. I therefore thank Stathis for informing us that "In occupied Europe, the Germans sometimes tried and punished soldiers who committed crimes against the local population." That's news to me. Haven't we always been regaled with countless stories of the Germans taking out whole villages in reprisal for guerrilla actions? By and large, the pattern is this: in general, the wealthier and richer a nation is, the more likely that it will have risen to the point that it can afford the luxury of being less terrible to its subjects, including the new subjects of a conquered nation that often need to be taught a lesson, i.e. "taught respect" or, what amounts to the same thing, persuaded that further resistance will be punished. On this reading it's clear that one would expect the U.S. to be more careful about civilian deaths than the Taliban. If the Taliban or its ally succeeds in killing thousands of civilians in the United States in a "terrorist" blow, it's cause for them to rejoice; whereas if the United States blows up an aspirin factory in the Sudan, killing uninvolved civilians, the Americans will consider it to have been a mistake and will suffer a great deal of internal criticism. Stathis wrote "The Soviet war in Afghanistan was similar in type and scale to the American war in Vietnam. Do you have any evidence suggesting that the Americans behaved better than the Soviets?" It does seem to be the case that the U.S. committed fewer actions that we on this list would regard as atrocities. More important, however, is how the U.S.S.R. and the U.S. regarded their own atrocities. In the former the massacre at My Lai received a tremendous amount of criticism, and the generals and colonels involved---simply for the sakes of their own careers, if nothing else---would have prevented it had they known ahead of time. For a gripping view of Soviet atrocities, you could see the movie "Charlie Wilson's War", :) though that probably isn't what you wanted in terms of "evidence". It happens to be true that even taking their wealth into account, Russian soldiers and generals all throughout the twentieth century were well known for their relative brutality and ruthlessness. To me it's appropriate to criticize nations and leaders so long as an attempt is made to do it with as little bias as possible. If at a deep level you resent the prestige and power of "the big cheese" among nations, do try to compensate for that; on the other hand, if you are pro-American or are an American patriot, in discussions like this some effort also should be made to overcome bias. The present conflicts that involve America are too recent for one to easily get an unbiased view of who is the *naughtiest* (given their background level of wealth). Almost all the information I see comes from politically motivated sources. The endless finger-pointing suggests to me that the pundits actually hope that their denunciations will have some political effect, and that that's what's important to them. That would be sad, if it weren't so ridiculous. Stathis wrote > 2009/6/6 John Grigg wrote > >> At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out >> very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who >> want to cripple Western civilization. Yes, it's terrible that so many >> innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the >> insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover >> & impromptu human shields. > > And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that > innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding > among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure > that America would never be able to threaten other countries again. We see some examples of what I'm saying right here. How do we know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda delight in crimes against humanity? I don't think so. It simply stands to reason, however, that their humanitarian impulses are, due to their background, less refined than those of the west. If they cheer when a couple of thousand of American civilians die in a terrorist act, we have to take their history (and even their religion) into account. They haven't been living in the twentieth century long, if at all. Likewise, how do we know that "all the Iraqi [insurgents] wanted to do was make sure that America would never be able to threaten other countries again"? They have their own reasons for resenting "the big cheese", a lot of it cultural, and it's a mistake for western readers to imagine that those reasons are identical to their own. Far from it. Lee From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 18:38:32 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:38:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <4A2A8226.2090605@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <4A2A8226.2090605@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it : > When was the last time the American supreme commander gave the permission to > kill indiscriminately for two hours and the troops killed indiscriminately > for two days? And no one went to court martial and was hanged? Iraq in general, Fallujah and Blackwater in particular. You;'re completely whacked, Mirco. "Lips." Best, Jeff Davis "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." George Orwell From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 19:17:07 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:17:07 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? Message-ID: Quote: The predominant model of drug addiction views it as a disease: humans and animals will use heroin or cocaine for as long as they are available. When the drugs run out, they will seek a fresh supply; the drugs, not the users, are in control. These conclusions, repeated frequently by politicians and the media, are based on experiments carried out almost exclusively on animals, usually rats and monkeys, housed in metal cages and experiencing a particularly poor quality of life. What would happen, wondered psychologist Dr Bruce Alexander, then of British Columbia's Simon Fraser University, if these animals were instead provided with a comfortable, stimulating environment? ------------- Alexander found that the rats stopped drinking the morphine immediately. He has written a book about drug addiction. He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that prior experiments in which laboratory rats were kept isolated in cramped metal cages, tethered to a self-injection apparatus, show only that "severely distressed animals, like severely distressed people, will relieve their distress pharmacologically if they can." ---------------- Even Oprah is getting in on this. they spend many hours playing roles that don't match their innate personalities and preferences, dulling the pain with mood-altering substances. Miserable with their jobs, relationships, or daily routines, they gulp down a fifth of Scotch, buy 46 commemorative Elvis plates on QVC, superglue phony smiles to their faces, and head on out to whatever rat race is gradually destroying them. --------- So, is drug taking just a coping mechanism for people with really desperate life circumstances? The monkeys in cages killing themselves with drugs has led futurists to speculate that transhumans will wirehead themselves into oblivion because they will be unable to resist the overwhelming pleasure. This is proposed as one explanation for the Fermi problem. But if this research is correct, then that won't happen. If our future lives are pleasant and fulfilling, then wireheading will just be an occasional pleasure and not a life-threatening addiction. BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jun 7 19:36:42 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090607143356.023565a8@satx.rr.com> This fits the claims of smart people like Samuel R. Delany who say they could take it or leave it, and seem to be telling the truth. I suppose the trouble is you can't be sure what sort of response you'll show until you're maybe in too deep. But I was able to give up cigarettes, alcohol, coffee and almost all black tea without *dreadful* trouble (although I needed about 4 runs at the smokes over a decade or so--that stuff is *seriously* habituating/addictive). Damien Broderick From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sun Jun 7 16:09:00 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:09:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Saturday 06 June 2009 8:44:10 am Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > 2009/6/6 John Grigg : > > ?it was only a matter > > > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > > organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres. > > Bush had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, > > but?obviously not?on a false?pretense regarding WMD. > > ### This is stupid. Indeed. Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical terrorists. They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, etc. They has full access to western media and TV. Iraq was the most secular and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. They would have been the least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist radicals. -- Harvey Newstrom From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sun Jun 7 16:32:13 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:32:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! In-Reply-To: <3A986D0D32BC4999A5193D0A872A0132@spike> References: <109699.43633.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3A986D0D32BC4999A5193D0A872A0132@spike> Message-ID: <200906071232.13886.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Thursday 04 June 2009 12:10:46 am spike wrote: > > "spike" wrote, > > > Evidence please? > > > > > > -- > > Harvey Newstrom > > Ja. Cheney is saying now, and appears to be saying then, that Iraq didn't > do 9/11, (or if they did, the CIA couldn't prove it), but that Iraq had > some mysterious relationship with bin Laden. Cheney isn't saying now that > there was no relationship between Iraq and bin Laden, only that Iraq didn't > help with the 9/11 attacks. I see no contradiction here. In his March 21, 2003, letter to the speaker of the House of Representatives and president pro tempore of the Senate notifying them of the use of military force in Iraq after the failure of diplomacy, Bush stated that "the use of armed force against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001." On the December 9, 2001, edition of Meet the Press, Cheney said that it was "pretty well confirmed" that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with September 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta shortly before the attacks. On the September 14, 2003, edition of the NBC program, Cheney said: "If we're successful in Iraq ... we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9-11." -- Harvey Newstrom From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 21:40:34 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:40:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/6 John Grigg wrote: > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims have > killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual > justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way. >>>> > > Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war??? How > many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved??? Please > let me know... One million Iraqi dead in an illegal invasion,... let's see, out of twenty-five million,...that's four percent of the population. So, if the US population is three hundred million, then four percent of that is twelve million. So, to answer John's (rhetorical and profoundly stupid, manipulative, and biased) question -- (actually, it was John's lame attempt to box Stathis in, since, no one who isn't "with the terrorists" is "allowed" to advocate the killing of Americans) -- but, wrongo bongo again -- on the basis of numerical equivalence then, the "terrorists" (Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Taliban of whatever stripe, al Quaeda, oh hell!, let's just say Muslims the world over and be done with it) have a get-out-of-jail-free card for the killing of 11,992,000 Americans. Please check my math. > Americans?(even those in uniform) tend to feel very?sad about innocents > getting killed?due to the fighting... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Please please stop. you're killing me. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. > And the Iraqi people have scratched > their heads in amazement as American?troops?accused of war crimes have?(at > least sometimes) been?tried for their?wrongdoing and convicted. Hahahahahahahahaha. Oh god this is good. Hahahahahahahaha. And that pathetical parenthetical,... oh god that's sweet. Hahahahahahaha. > Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold Which makes it all okay, right? The Taliban weren't "our" enemy until the Bush cabal needed someone to shoot at so as to distract Americans from noticing how Osama got away. > and?it was only a matter > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > organizations and became a major supporter of them. Made up out of whole Neocon cloth. >? I just wish Pres. Bush > had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, Yeah, right! If he had just gone to the American people and said?, "The Israelis have put in a order for the American military to take out Saddam and make the mideast safe for Israel. They want Americans to die for the jews (there was a Holocaust remember, so that makes it okay) and for American taxpayers to foot the bill. Emper... er, Vice President Cheney wants Iraqi oil for his pals at Halliburton, the military industrial complex wants the business, and we've got a buttload of new generals in the Army and Marines just itchin' to show their stuff, get some more stars, and maybe get a shot at runnin' for president some day soon on the Republican ticket. What say, America, are you ready to rumble?!!" Americans would have jumped at the chance. I can't for the life of me figure why he thought he had to lie about it!!! Fuck the UN charter. > But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the > combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S. > possesses?? I shudder at the very thought... Because, twenty years after the fall of the Soviet Union your brain is still polluted with all that anti-communist bullshit. Here's what you do. Rip the cord from some unused appliance. Cut it to length -- a foot less than your height -- strip the ends and tape them to your temples. Now lie on the floor directly opposite an electrical outlet on the wall. Place your feet one on either side of the outlet, and then plug 'er in. You've heard of colon cleansing?, well, I call this Jeff's DIY ES brain cleansing(you're gonna get a colon cleansing as well, at no extra charge, but that's not the main deal, just icing on the cake). Be sure that the cord is shorter than you are (to insure that when your back arches and your legs straighten spasmodically, the cord is jerked from the wall), otherwise you could cause yourself serious injury or death. If you are pleased with the result, and want more, you can attach one of the "electrodes" to your nipples or genitals for that special "National Security Frisson". I refer to this as Jeff's DIY "Enhanced" ES Brain Cleansing. > > A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death toll > ten times (or a hundred times...)?what we have had due to?mass executions, > concentration/labor camps,?the firebombing of entire cities, starvation, > rape, body?organ stealing,?disease, and death march deportations. Not to mention puppies set on fire, dildoes in the shape Pirogis and egg rolls, and toilet paper with faces of American presidents printed one to a sheet. Aaarggggh!!! those evil commies, is there no limit to their depravity??!! > The > United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely. And what point is that, the point at which they cross the Iraqi border? > America has it's definite shortcomings, A vile slander! Off to Guantanamo with him for the international waterboarding finals! > but at least we have values and > principles to aspire to Or hide behind, until the veil is stripped away by al Jazeera and the blogosphere. Why, oh why won't they just learn how to say "How high?" All we are saying is give American exceptionalism a chance. >(despite sometimes veering off in the wrong > direction, until course corrections are made) Despite sometimes veering off in the right direction, until course corrections are made > instead of merely always > pursuing power for it's own?sake and with no concern for human life and > liberty, which is the approach of our rivals. I don't know. Sounds an awful lot like the approach of the US political class. > > At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out > very vicious?organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who > want to cripple Western civilization. Yeah, yeah. And set puppies on fire, make all women look like Ernest Borgnine, make baseball illegal unless you wear a tutu, force Republicans to pretend that they're straight, etc >? Yes, it's terrible that so many > innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the > insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls?as cover > &?impromptu human shields. It's called defending their neighborhood. They live there. The "human shields" canard is just standard, lame (but nonetheless effective) pentagon blame shifting.They much prefer (though they ever so deeply regret) killing civilians by the hundreds than risking the lives of grunts in house to house fighting. **************************************** John, I feel badly about taking you to task so harshly, but it had to be done. I hope you will forgive me. I know your heart's in the right place. Best, Jeff Davis "Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they mind, and how long they remember." Martin Amis From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 22:55:00 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 00:55:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906071555j68ab0ddchf3d871d792d49208@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Indeed. ?Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical > terrorists. ?They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, > etc. ?They has full access to western media and TV. ?Iraq was the most secular > and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. ?They would have been the > least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist > radicals. But the US happily managed to fix that, so that as soon as the g-men are away, the country will be well on the way to the Restoration of the Caliphate and to put Saudi Arabia to shame. -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Jun 7 23:23:35 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:23:35 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> Il 07/06/2009 18.09, Harvey Newstrom ha scritto: > On Saturday 06 June 2009 8:44:10 am Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> 2009/6/6 John Grigg: >> >> it was only a matter >> >>> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist >>> organizations and became a major supporter of them. I just wish Pres. >>> Bush had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, >>> but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD. >> ### This is stupid. > > Indeed. Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical > terrorists. They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, > etc. They has full access to western media and TV. Iraq was the most secular > and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. They would have been the > least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist > radicals. Oh my.... the naivety of the people. Do you really believe that people that kill so easily have any qualms to make alliances of opportunity with anyone else? Do you really believe that these people lack of any strategic and tactical vision? Do you really believe they are all stupid lunatics unable to restrain themselves when it expedient to do so? The cannon fodder could be unable to restain themselves, the leaders, not so much. Sunni, Wahabbi and Shia could hate each other, but they will collaborate with each other against a common enemy. Iran is know to arm al-Qaeda linked and Ba'ath linked insurgent / terrorists / militias in Iraq, the sunni Hamas in Gaza, the Sunni Sudanese. Until they kill westerns or destabilize Iraq, it is only good for Iran. bin Laden son (one of many) live in Iran. al-Zarkawi moved inside Iran to heal is wounded leg before becoming the head of al Qaeda in Iraq. They can squabble about how pray, but the will not let a chance to kill westerns to go wasted. There is time to settle these question after their aims are obtained and the US is out of the region. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00 From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jun 7 23:46:11 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 18:46:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090607183958.02549ea8@satx.rr.com> At 01:23 AM 6/8/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote: >They can squabble about how pray, but the will not let a chance to >kill westerns to go wasted. There is time to settle these question >after their aims are obtained and the US is out of the region. I usually feel that any topic on this list should be allowed to continue until the crazies are sick of shouting at each other--we can always skip the threads--but this is getting not only tiresome but ugly and seems to be throttling other discussions, rather like bindweed taking over a garden. The ExI list isn't a bigotry carnival 7 days/week, or shouldn't be. Just my opinion, of course; I'm not a moderator or list owner. Damien Broderick From kanzure at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 01:13:16 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:13:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: <301934.25186.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <301934.25186.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Are you trying to find something you can sit down and use or use while walking/mobile? I have no preference at the moment. It would be nice to find something ridiculously mobile. My main concern is that I like being able to quickly press out my special character keys for programming and other related tasks. With chorded keyboards you encounter this drawback between how many keystrokes you want to use to get to a variable and how commonly it comes up in every day usage. So, it becomes a bit of an nightmare of either different modes, mode switching, alt and switching, etc, etc. Playing it like a musical instrument isn't entirely my scheme. Another important point is that it should provide some sort of advantage over qwerty and dvorak layouts: maybe a nice typing rate increase. It is not immediately obvious what the maximum on human motion and agility is. When is it a problem of personal training, and when is it a problem of terrible keyboard design? I've been told that there are studies in ergonomics of how long it takes people to perform different subtasks in typing, like identification, targetting, pressing, lift-off, etc., though I don't know how to find those studies or whether or not anybody has bothered to use that information to help optimize some sort of automatic design of keyboard design, whether through displacing the plastic into different geometries and shapes, or doing something completely different due to the dynamic ability of the human body (degrees of freedom, or rather the domains of freedom which can be accessed with the muscles). Really the design process should be flipped around. The task is to type quickly and to type a relatively equal or relatively larger set of symbols out, without breaking the laws of motion of the human body, and so on and so forth. Brain implants might be one method, but unfortunately despite all of the literature I have read on microelectrode arrays, the best that I can find is crappy EEG studies where people look at a visual keyboard on the screen and think either "left" or "right" in order to choose a subset of the overall keyboard image in a slow attempt to choose which key to press. Not good. Hm. Still need to think about this some more. Handcuffing the wrists together and having a somewhat stable plastic shape on which to use the hands to type might be one method, but then you don't get the same hand-flying-across-the-keyboard freedom that you get in conventional flat surface keyboards. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From kanzure at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 01:34:33 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:34:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Open Manufacturing] Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: <4A2C67CA.2040503@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <301934.25186.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com> <4A2C67CA.2040503@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906071834o318e2da6h3b3b1a99e80b40d1@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote: > Bryan Bishop wrote: >> Really the design process should be flipped around. The task is to >> type quickly and to type a relatively equal or relatively larger set >> of symbols out, without breaking the laws of motion of the human body, >> and so on and so forth. > > I didn't notice it in the list, but have you looked at the idea of "data > gloves"? Basically, anything that records the relative motion of your finger > joints can be used for typing input, even without finger tips contacting a > surface. > ? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=data+gloves > You could also get haptic feedback in some and use them for 3D manipulation. In the back of my mind I was considering data gloves at one point, yeah. Haptic force feedback would help the problem that I was thinking of with them: namely, it's easier to do typing if you have some tactile sense of the topology of the interface. It seems to be how the motor cortex works, or something. So, force feedback might help. I wonder how to map it to 3D space though for different keys and motions .. that's a hard 5D image to visualize. > But if you don't need to be mobile, stenographer's Stenotype keyboards might > be the fastest. And might take several months to years to train on. > ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype > "A stenotype or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or > typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. A trained court reporter > or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 225 words per minute > at very high accuracy in order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter > test[1]. Many users of this machine can even reach 300 words per minute and > per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the > official record for American English is 375 wpm." Uh, what? I don't see how this satisfies the other requirement of special characters being easily typed. IIRC, stenography machines are mostly about phonetics more than they are about specific ASCII or unicode keycodes. > But voice input can easily get up to 150wpm, but with 1% to 5% errors. What about special keycodes? I guess if I go learn the international phonetics language it might be easier to map different grunts to different keycodes, but that sounds kind of annoying. > http://www.voicetypist.com/The%20Question%20of%20Speed%20and%20Accuracy.htm > "For instance, Nuance says that Dragon NaturallySpeaking (DNS) can keep up > with a user speaking 160 words a minute, with an accuracy of 99%. In a > noise-free setting with a practiced user, that's undoubtedly the case. But > it's almost necessary to say, "So what?"" - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 03:13:49 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:13:49 +1000 Subject: [ExI] USA Health Costs In-Reply-To: <4A2BA576.40405@libero.it> References: <1D419C38B15E459F95CE4B016D629AC7@spike> <062A634D356540C69C80ED5D82DDF938@spike> <4A2A9DAB.7010306@libero.it> <4A2AAF21.9040007@libero.it> <4A2BA576.40405@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it : > True, to a point. > Without a real market, it is impossible to develop real alternative to the > current situation. > For example, it is not possible to have comparative quotations on the > value/cost of some procedures, like happen with the car market. > I want know the market value of a car? a look on-line or I buy a magazine > about cars. Why I can not know how much is the price/cost of a surgical > procedure? What stops you doing this? It's only if the insurance (public or private) pays 100% that the patient would not be interested in the cost, although the insurer would be. >> And >> even if the patient does his own research, an environment where drug >> companies and other vendors of medical products or services can >> advertise freely will result in a bias towards unnecessary treatment. > > Better a bias towards unnecessary treatments than a bias towards not enough > treatments. Then, in a free market, this become a client decision, not a > medical decision. The main point is to make possible for the buyers to know > what is buying and how much is the cost of it. I don't think you can make the general statement that a bias towards unnecessary treatment is better. As a doctor, if you think a treatment will do more good than harm, you recommend it; if you think it will do more harm than good, you recommend against it; and if you think it is likely to be neutral in its effects or don't know, you also recommend against it. Absent ethical considerations, an insurer will be motivated to reject payment for treatments that are necessary, while a private doctor will be motivated to recommend such treatments. Perhaps between them the right balance will be reached. >> Look at how much money is spent on "alternative" therapies with no >> scientific evidence in their favour whatsoever, and extrapolate this >> to therapies that are not completely inert, but which lack evidence to >> show that they are helpful in a particular situation. > > Well, I call this "extended experimentation". If it is done with the > informed agreement of the patient, there is nothing wrong. Main point is to > make sure the data about the treatment is recorded and used to gauge his > value. > >> You might say >> that it's OK if people are willing to pay, > > So I do. > >> but apart from the fact >> that these therapies may do more harm than good, > > "May" is the word, we are not sure. > Until the patient is correctly informed, it is his choice. In general, neither public nor private insurers will pay for unnecessary or harmful treatments, but a patient is free to pay cash if he can find a willing provider. This is fair enough if the patient is informed of the risks. >> it does add >> needlessly to the total cost of health care, and takes resources away >> from where they might yield greater benefit. > > It is not your or my or anyone right to choose how to use someone else > money. It is the right of the people owning the money to choose how use it. > Who are you or someone else to rule how they must use their wealth? Are you > morally better than them? But if it is tax money then we have a responsibility to use it appropriately. Even private hospitals in most places are regulated so that patients can be assured of a certain minimum standard. -- Stathis Papaioannou From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 03:39:50 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] 'Gendertopia'? Message-ID: <944179.89653.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ['Gendertopia'? or when one of the interviewees says "there's a whole world of genders out there" does it mean more hyperbole and confusion? an open question] ---------------------------------------------- ?Like plenty of other high school students, a group of about a dozen Vermont teenagers trundled into a youth center one day every week this spring to participate in an after-school program. But their program was different; it focused on gender. The nine-week program, partially funded by the Burlington School District, was held at Vermont's Queer Youth Center and called "Gendertopia." Gay, lesbian and straight students discussed a wide range of topics, from the characters in the book and movie "Twilight," to taking photos around the city that show the different ways gender is portrayed in popular culture. "Most people come into it thinking, 'Oh, there's two genders and two sexualities' ... ," said David Kingsbury, a 16-year-old junior at Burlington High School who signed up for the program. "People assume it's boy and girl, but it's so much more than that. There's a whole world out there full of different genders." The program is among the first of its kind to be funded, in part, with tax dollars, said Christopher Neff, the executive director of Outright Vermont, the social service organization running Gendertopia. Neither the program nor the school district's participation triggered any objection. The tempered reaction locally to the program shows how far Outright Vermont and the issues it raises has moved into the main stream of youth social service organizations. "It's got queer in its name. It scares the heck out of people. It's so important that people be able to see beyond any concerns or misconceptions that they have," said Eliza Byard, the executive director of the New York-based Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network, which has 35 chapters across the country. "Outright Vermont is fulfilling its mission in the most wonderful way." The program was designed to help young people identify the subtle signals used to express gender and how not being aware of those signals can lower self esteem and possibly lead to an increase in at-risk activities like substance abuse or dropping out of school, Neff said. "We often see a lot of homophobia or transphobia that happens on the basis of how someone looks," Neff said. "If you are making fun of me because I am wearing a pink shirt and that's sort of expressing my femininity, my feminine side, that translates into homophobia, but it has nothing to do with whether I'm straight or whether I'm dating boys or whether I'm dating girls. It has to do with the fact that I'm wearing a pink shirt." Neff said the significance of the program is more than the money and the relatively small number of young people who participate. "It's incredibly symbolic and very powerful," he said. "I was incredibly proud to be associated with them and I thought this partnership, this very unique partnership, between a queer youth center and a school district to run a gender identity based program was a new national model." Burlington School Superintendent Jeanne Collins said no one has objected to the program. "The district has been in the forefront on this topic for at least a decade, if not longer," Collins said. "We are very sensitive to celebrating the differences in people and accepting people for who they are and what they bring to the table." She said a factor that helped keep the program non controversial was that it was voluntary. "We have very robust after school program," Collins said. "This is one of the options for the students who are interested. They get a lot out of it that will help them be much more inclusive and accepting of differences in their own future, which can only help them be successful." Steve Cable, of Rutland the founder of Vermont Renewal, an organization that promotes what he calls traditional family values, said he wasn't familiar with "Gendertopia," but he knew Outright Vermont. He said he was supportive of the group's anti-bullying efforts, but not what he said was its focus on adolescent sexuality. "It just makes me really nervous that sexuality and these very complicated social behaviors are being normalized and talked about with kids who haven't figured out even their life yet," Cable said. "I know that Outright Vermont promotes all gender identities and expression of gender identities, no matter how weird that might be." In 2000, Vermont was the first state that passed civil unions for same-sex couples and earlier this year was the first to pass gay marriage without being required to do so by the courts. It's also in the forefront with laws to protect gender identity and sexual orientation. Outright Vermont describes itself as "one of the longest standing queer organizations in Vermont" and the only one focused on young people. Neff said that for years his organization has done anti-bullying presentations related to sexual orientation and gender identity in schools across the state. He said the presentations have been universally well received. Byard said a number of national organizations have programs for girls that help them deal with the pressures that can lead to eating disorders or pressures that girls feel to be thin or beautiful. "Now it's only relatively recently that there has been real focus on the damaging effect of these same expectations on young men," Byard said. About 40 students signed up for the program, Neff said, and about 12 attended the weekly program. Sometimes the group watched a movie or had food. Much of the discussion was led by the students themselves, and it wasn't just for gay and lesbian students. "I'm straight, but I don't like using that word because then it feels like if you're gay then you're crooked, you're not meant to grow up in a certain way," Sophia Manzi, 15, a Burlington high school freshman, said during this year's final "Gendertopia" meeting. "I come because it's a really good program. The people, it doesn't matter what sexual orientation you are, they totally come in with open arms." Neff said "Gendertopia" wasn't about sexuality or who people are attracted to. "We're really clear that gender and gender identify is separate from sexual orientation," Neff said. "Hugh Grant and Russell Crowe have the same sex, they're both male and they're both heterosexual. But they have very different gender presentations. One is sort of seen as much more masculine than the other." Burlington High School After school Coordinator Amy Mills said no decision had been made yet on whether to run Gendertopia again in the fall, but she'd like to. "I think it worked well," Mills said. "They seem to have a lot of fun." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 04:04:05 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:04:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: <4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/8 Lee Corbin : > In the present case, some people are biased in > America's favor, and others resent the U.S. > > Why America? Easy: since the end of WWII, the U.S. > has been the "big cheese" among nations, and so > of course garners the most attention. It also follows > that the moral question "Is America doing the right > thing" far outweighs "Is Burkina Faso doing the > right thing?" It's also makes a difference that you're part of the American alliance. People tend to fall into two camps over this: those who say "my country, right or wrong" and those who feel that it's their duty to make sure their country does the right thing, since they have some control over it. >> And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that >> innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding >> among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure >> that America would never be able to threaten other countries again. > > We see some examples of what I'm saying right here. > How do we know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda delight > in crimes against humanity? I don't think so. It > simply stands to reason, however, that their humanitarian > impulses are, due to their background, less refined than > those of the west. If they cheer when a couple of thousand > of American civilians die in a terrorist act, we have to > take their history (and even their religion) into account. > They haven't been living in the twentieth century long, > if at all. > > Likewise, how do we know that "all the Iraqi [insurgents] > wanted to do was make sure that America would never be > able to threaten other countries again"? They have their > own reasons for resenting "the big cheese", a lot of it > cultural, and it's a mistake for western readers to > imagine that those reasons are identical to their own. > Far from it. Humanitarian impulses are not at the forefront when your country is being invaded. If the US nuking Japan was morally justifiable, then would it also have been morally justifiable for Iraq to nuke a couple of large US cities to prevent an invasion? -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 04:25:21 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:25:21 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2009/6/8 BillK : > The monkeys in cages killing themselves with drugs has led futurists > to speculate that transhumans will wirehead themselves into oblivion > because they will be unable to resist the overwhelming pleasure. This > is proposed as one explanation for the Fermi problem. But if this > research is correct, then that won't happen. If our future lives are > pleasant and fulfilling, then wireheading will just be an occasional > pleasure and not a life-threatening addiction. Having complete access to the source code of your brain would not be like drug addiction or wireheading. This relates to the concept of second order desires, or desires about desires: "I wish I didn't have such an urge to use heroin; I wish I got as much pleasure from going for a walk as I do from using heroin." If the addict could simply adjust his brain in accordance with these wishes, there wouldn't be a problem. -- Stathis Papaioannou From spike66 at att.net Mon Jun 8 05:17:07 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:17:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com><165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike><62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com><2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> Message-ID: <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:30 PM, spike wrote: > > At first it would be only women and female embryos. Then > there will > > be a planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live > on Mars. > > Imagine being the first guy there. Thirty to fifty women, some of > > whom have never even seen a man, otherwise the planet is > all yours. > > Would that be cool, or what? > > > > > Or....... > > 30 to 50 women saying, > "You want to do WHAT???!!!! Have you gone totally insane??? > Where's my tazer?" > > BillK What would happen BillK? If you had 30 to 50 women who had been raised on Mars with only women, and no input from Earth, any speculations anyone? I think they would somehow have an instinct to take that first guy for a roll in the hay, and might actually find it delightful. Don't know however. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 05:57:05 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:57:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670906072257s7871278apaeb77d4f067d825f@mail.gmail.com> Ironically, as I write this a friend is watching "Three Kings." On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > 2009/6/6 John Grigg wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims > have > > killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual > > justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way. > >>>> > > > > Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war?? > How > > many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved?? Please > > let me know... > > Jeff Davis wrote: > One million Iraqi dead in an illegal invasion,... let's see, out of > twenty-five million,...that's four percent of the population. So, if > the US population is three hundred million, then four percent of that > is twelve million. So, to answer John's (rhetorical and profoundly > stupid, manipulative, and biased) question -- (actually, it was John's > lame attempt to box Stathis in, since, no one who isn't "with the > terrorists" is "allowed" to advocate the killing of Americans) -- but, > wrongo bongo again -- on the basis of numerical equivalence then, the > "terrorists" (Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Taliban of whatever stripe, > al Quaeda, oh hell!, let's just say Muslims the world over and be done > with it) have a get-out-of-jail-free card for the killing of > 11,992,000 Americans. > > Please check my math. > >>> Okay, it was a loaded rhetorical comment but I was rightfully (in my view) angry. But I really don't think your above response was in good taste, to say the least. > > > Americans (even those in uniform) tend to feel very sad about innocents > > getting killed due to the fighting... > Jeff Davis wrote: > > Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Please please stop. you're killing me. > Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. > What?? You think the bulk of American soldiers in Iraq are like the ancient Romans or Assyrians, in terms of their conduct as occupiers? You really have a low opinion of your own nation's servicemen and women. You seem to consider this is a big joke. Perhaps you should have built your dream home somewhere in Europe... > > > And the Iraqi people have scratched > > their heads in amazement as American troops accused of war crimes > have (at > > least sometimes) been tried for their wrongdoing and convicted. > > Jeff Davis wrote: > Hahahahahahahahaha. Oh god this is good. Hahahahahahahaha. And > that pathetical parenthetical,... oh god that's sweet. > Hahahahahahaha. I saw an ABC News special where they interviewed very surprised Iraqi's, as they viewed on television U.S. soldiers being brought up on charges for various crimes. Or do you not believe anything you see on television? Your responses to my post are mostly "hahahahahaha" and not much of a real reply. > > > > > Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold > Jeff Davis wrote: > > Which makes it all okay, right? The Taliban weren't "our" enemy > until the Bush cabal needed someone to shoot at so as to distract > Americans from noticing how Osama got away. > The Taliban needed to be dealt with, even if they were a monster we had initially nurtured to get Russia out of Afghanistan. Yes, Osama got away and it pains me that we have largely let him and others hide out in Pakistan because we don't want to rock the boat there (after all, they have nukes and we don't want to destabilize the gov't and have the Muslim fundamentalists take over). > > > and it was only a matter > > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > > organizations and became a major supporter of them. > > Jeff Davis wrote: > Made up out of whole Neocon cloth. > Painlord did a good job of buttressing my claim here. Jeff, I feel like you are channeling Al Franken! lol > > > I just wish Pres. Bush > > had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, > > Yeah, right! If he had just gone to the American people and said , > "The Israelis have put in a order for the American military to take > out Saddam and make the mideast safe for Israel. They want Americans > to die for the jews (there was a Holocaust remember, so that makes it > okay) and for American taxpayers to foot the bill. Emper... er, Vice > President Cheney wants Iraqi oil for his pals at Halliburton, the > military industrial complex wants the business, and we've got a > buttload of new generals in the Army and Marines just itchin' to show > their stuff, get some more stars, and maybe get a shot at runnin' for > president some day soon on the Republican ticket. What say, America, > are you ready to rumble?!!" > > Americans would have jumped at the chance. I can't for the life of me > figure why he thought he had to lie about it!!! Fuck the UN charter. > America was itching for some WWII style payback after 9-11 and Iraq was an easier target than Pakistan. Saddam already had created so much bad blood with the U.S. due to the first Gulf War. And his well known reputation for terrorizing his own population, raping & sometimes even murdering women that caught his eye, made him a juicy bad guy straight out of Hollywood central casting. He actually held up Josef Stalin as his personal ideal. you wrote: >They want Americans to die for the jews (there was a >Holocaust remember, so that makes it okay) I think you buy way too much into "the Jews got us to do it conspiracy!" At least according to one source, Iran was Israel's nation of choice to be invaded by us... http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39051 > > > But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the > > combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S. > > possesses? I shudder at the very thought... > Jeff Davis wrote: > > Because, twenty years after the fall of the Soviet Union your brain is > still polluted with all that anti-communist bullshit. Here's what you > do. Rip the cord from some unused appliance. Cut it to length -- a > foot less than your height -- strip the ends and tape them to your > temples. Now lie on the floor directly opposite an electrical outlet > on the wall. Place your feet one on either side of the outlet, and > then plug 'er in. You've heard of colon cleansing?, well, I call this > Jeff's DIY ES brain cleansing(you're gonna get a colon cleansing as > well, at no extra charge, but that's not the main deal, just icing on > the cake). Be sure that the cord is shorter than you are (to insure > that when your back arches and your legs straighten spasmodically, the > cord is jerked from the wall), otherwise you could cause yourself > serious injury or death. > > If you are pleased with the result, and want more, you can attach one > of the "electrodes" to your nipples or genitals for that special > "National Security Frisson". I refer to this as Jeff's DIY "Enhanced" > ES Brain Cleansing. > Wow! Did you make your fortune packaging this technique to help others achieve ideological change? ; ) And have you tested this method yet on yourself? Perhaps you did, but too many times... > > > > > A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death > toll > > ten times (or a hundred times...) what we have had due to mass > executions, > > concentration/labor camps, the firebombing of entire cities, starvation, > > rape, body organ stealing, disease, and death march deportations. > Jeff Davis wrote: > > Not to mention puppies set on fire, dildoes in the shape Pirogis and > egg rolls, and toilet paper with faces of American presidents printed > one to a sheet. Aaarggggh!!! those evil commies, is there no limit > to their depravity??!! > It all seems fun and games until they come for you. I guess the war crimes committed by Russia in Afghanistan, and the murder and rape perpetrated by China on Tibet, just doesn't matter... > > > The > > United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely. > Jeff Davis wrote: > > And what point is that, the point at which they cross the Iraqi border? > You really need to start a radio show with Al Franken and Michael Moore. > > > America has it's definite shortcomings, > > A vile slander! Off to Guantanamo with him for the international > waterboarding finals! > LOL No, you have not heard the latest about U.S. interrogators, because now we try the "I want to be your friend and here are some cookies" approach. But if I get put on an international flight then I'm in serious trouble. Or I should say when *you* are put on one... ; ) > > > but at least we have values and > > principles to aspire to > > Or hide behind, until the veil is stripped away by al Jazeera and the > blogosphere. Why, oh why won't they just learn how to say "How high?" > All we are saying is give American exceptionalism a chance. > Oh, yes... The bastion of journalistic integrity known as al Jazeera! lol > > >(despite sometimes veering off in the wrong > > direction, until course corrections are made) > Jeff Davis wrote: > > Despite sometimes veering off in the right > direction, until course corrections are made > You are the total cynic... But I envision you at your computer keyboard right now with a big bottle of Jack Daniels (mostly empty at this point). > > > instead of merely always > > pursuing power for it's own sake and with no concern for human life and > > liberty, which is the approach of our rivals. > Jeff Davis wrote: > > I don't know. Sounds an awful lot like the approach of the US political > class. > I think you are quite the cynic, and at least we have a generally free press and open society. But keep in mind, what level of journalistic and public free expression do they have in Russia or China? And the answer is vastly less than the United States. > > > > At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root > out > > very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and > who > > want to cripple Western civilization. > Jeff Davis writes: > > Yeah, yeah. And set puppies on fire, make all women look like Ernest > Borgnine, make baseball illegal unless you wear a tutu, force > Republicans to pretend that they're straight, etc > That is only the icing on the cake. Actually, they want to set kittens on fire, make American football illegal and replace it with soccer, and have separate airport rest rooms for Republican politicians! But I must say they think Ernest Borgnine is the ideal of feminine beauty and so they at least mean well in that category. : ) > > > Yes, it's terrible that so many > > innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the > > insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover > > & impromptu human shields. > Jeff Davis wrote: > > It's called defending their neighborhood. They live there. > "Hey, Achmed, I'm bored today." "Why, yes, Abdul, so am I, and low on money..." "Well, Achmed, so why don't we get a big cash bonus from a militia recruiter and shoot at American troops today!" "Great idea, my friend!" "Let's go!!" Jeff Davis wrote: > > The "human shields" canard is just standard, lame (but nonetheless > effective) pentagon blame shifting.They much prefer (though they ever > so deeply regret) killing civilians by the hundreds than risking the > lives of grunts in house to house fighting. > > **************************************** > I bet the parents, wives and kids of those grunts are grateful to get to see them again and not attend their funeral. Yes, the Iraqi innocents have just as much right to living. War is hell and sometimes/often America does not live up to it's principles. What I find ironic is the number of Europeans (or those who were at least born and raised there) who grind their teeth at the tyranny of America in the Middle East, fighting amongst Arabs. But yet when in *their own backyard* they had Muslims being massacred and raped by Serbians, etc., they barely raised a finger to help. Jeff Davis wrote: > > John, I feel badly about taking you to task so harshly, but it had to > be done. I hope you will forgive me. I know your heart's in the > right place. > > Best, Jeff Davis > Jeff, I remember fondly our Extro 5 conversations and I know you are a very good guy. But I still want to believe the United States is not rotten, or at least better than you think it is. A quote: > > "Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose > your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they > mind, and how long they remember." > Martin Amis > _______________________________________________ > A quote many people on this list need to keep in mind (including me). John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 8 05:59:49 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 00:59:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] future pizzle In-Reply-To: <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608004844.0224f230@satx.rr.com> At 10:17 PM 6/7/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: > > 30 to 50 women saying, > > "You want to do WHAT???!!!! Have you gone totally insane??? > > Where's my tazer?" > > > > BillK > >What would happen BillK? If you had 30 to 50 women who had been raised on >Mars with only women, and no input from Earth, Where did "no input from Earth" come from? Wasn't this meant to be a cheap path to human settlement on Mars? You're also going to do away with radio, TV, the web, computers? Why? What? Since you're wondering how enthusiastic these women would be when men arrive (why would men arrive? the whole idea was that it's too expensive to send them), imagine your own reaction when the starship arrives and disgorges a bunch of gnarly giant Klingons who schmooze up to you, Spike, and rumble that for Klingons--our true ancient ancestors--male on male sex is what tradition demands, sugar. Or you could read some of the sf explorations of this theme in books and stories by James Tiptree Jr aka Alice Sheldon ("Houston, Houston, Do You Read?"**), Joanna Russ, Ursula Le Guin, and others. Damien Broderick **http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston,_Houston,_Do_You_Read%3F From spike66 at att.net Mon Jun 8 05:45:56 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:45:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gaypopulation In-Reply-To: <4A294833.70700@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> Message-ID: <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > painlord2k at libero.it ... > > Christians are bound to try imitate Christ, Muslims are bound > to try imitate Mohammed. Things are so simple. > > Now, look in the life and examples set by Mohammed and the > examples set by Jesus. Then you decide if you want live near > people trying to imitate Jesus or near people trying to > imitate Mohammed. > > The difference is not tiny. > > Mirco I am an atheist. Ideally, I want to live near people trying to imitate Charles Darwin. Now THAT would be a cool neighborhood. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 06:29:18 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:29:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gaypopulation In-Reply-To: <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670906072329k27f54eb1w65456a1b37689ab@mail.gmail.com> Spike wrote: I am an atheist. Ideally, I want to live near people trying to imitate Charles Darwin. Now THAT would be a cool neighborhood. >>> Or a very strange neighborhood... But I have heard Darwin was a kindly gentleman (The Moral Animal) and would be a good example for the kids. Besides celebrating Newtonmass, would you also have a Charles Darwin Day? Or perhaps a big arts and crafts festival & parade in his honor, selling cool little knick knacks to remember him? hee And a look alike contest would be mandatory! Oh, and also a very formal Victorian era costume ball... John : ) (planning to run for a Darwintropolis city council seat) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 06:36:13 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:36:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future pizzle In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608004844.0224f230@satx.rr.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608004844.0224f230@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670906072336w30319770ob09ad73c2e6c882e@mail.gmail.com> Damien wrote: Since you're wondering how enthusiastic these women would be when men arrive (why would men arrive? the whole idea was that it's too expensive to send them), imagine your own reaction when the starship arrives and disgorges a bunch of gnarly giant Klingons who schmooze up to you, Spike, and rumble that for Klingons--our true ancient ancestors--male on male sex is what tradition demands, sugar. >>> Hey, even *female* Klingons wanting to get busy with human males would be scary, considering fractured bones are often the result of heated Klingon sexuality. Snoo Snoo!! John (knowledge like this helped preserve my virginity well into my twenties...) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 07:03:35 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 00:03:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670906080003t52cdfa91teec7e5ea26935fcd@mail.gmail.com> Spike wrote: What would happen BillK? If you had 30 to 50 women who had been raised on Mars with only women, and no input from Earth, any speculations anyone? I think they would somehow have an instinct to take that first guy for a roll in the hay, and might actually find it delightful. Don't know however. >>> Spike, I agree with your take on things. And I think once one of the women had sex with the male visitor and spoke about it with her compatriots (especially if she gave a positive review), the other gals would become curious and even jealous and even more sexual hi-jinks would ensue. But as for pregnancy, that is a whole other story! lol But why no input from Earth? By watching films, listening to romantic music, etc., they could be psychologically conditioned to be receptive to the males who eventually show up. This discussion reminds me of a Clint Eastwood movie about a wounded Union soldier who holes up in a southern girl's school. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066819/ John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 07:10:23 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 00:10:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d6187670906080010s2a8dc970w980d51ac62bd2acc@mail.gmail.com> Stathis wrote: Having complete access to the source code of your brain would not be like drug addiction or wireheading. This relates to the concept of second order desires, or desires about desires: "I wish I didn't have such an urge to use heroin; I wish I got as much pleasure from going for a walk as I do from using heroin." If the addict could simply adjust his brain in accordance with these wishes, there wouldn't be a problem. >>> What do you mean, there wouldn't be a problem?? Do you really want to see people walking down the street looking out of their minds with bliss? LOL John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 08:50:20 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:50:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A great SF magazine is no more... Message-ID: <2d6187670906080150p2eabd791v43e41bd5b8a45aaa@mail.gmail.com> I just found out to my great sadness that the print edition of Starlog has been cancelled! This magazine did an excellent job covering SF films and television programs, and had been doing so since the mid 70's. I have many fond memories as a boy pouring over it's pages and being totally enthralled with wonder (it helped lay the foundation for my interest in transhumanism and cryonics). I will miss it. Yes, they still have a website, but it is just not the same (and the level of resources that went into the print edition is obviously not going into the website). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlog_Magazine John : ( -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 09:26:57 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:26:57 +1000 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906072257s7871278apaeb77d4f067d825f@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670906072257s7871278apaeb77d4f067d825f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/8 John Grigg : > Jeff, I remember fondly our Extro 5 conversations and I know you are a > very?good guy.? But I still want to believe the?United States?is not rotten, > or at least better than you think it is. I think it's better to err on the side of caution and assume that your country *is* rotten when there is any doubt. Remember that the propaganda efforts to convince you that it isn't rotten will vary in proportion to the actual rottenness. -- Stathis Papaioannou From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 09:36:26 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:36:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670906072257s7871278apaeb77d4f067d825f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/8/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > I think it's better to err on the side of caution and assume that your > country *is* rotten when there is any doubt. Remember that the > propaganda efforts to convince you that it isn't rotten will vary in > proportion to the actual rottenness. > I doubt if 'rotten' is the correct word to use. Usually it is just being practical. The basic motivation is almost always - We want their stuff or we want to stop them taking our stuff. All else is propaganda, PR, persuasion, etc. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 09:39:03 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:39:03 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906080010s2a8dc970w980d51ac62bd2acc@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906080010s2a8dc970w980d51ac62bd2acc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/8 John Grigg : > Stathis wrote: > Having complete access to the source code of your brain would not be like > drug addiction or wireheading. This relates to the concept of second order > desires, or desires about desires: "I wish I didn't have such an urge to use > heroin; I wish I got as much pleasure from going for a walk as I do from > using heroin." If the addict could simply adjust his brain in accordance > with these wishes, there wouldn't be a problem. >>>> > > What do you mean, there wouldn't be a problem??? Do you really want to see > people walking down the street looking out of their minds with bliss? LOL If the problem of excessive walking or looking uncool while walking is anticipated, that too could be fixed. For example, I could arrange it so that my desire to walk without purpose is satiated after a suitable period, or so that I don't have a stupid expression on my face, or so that I don't care if people notice that I have a stupid expression on my face. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 10:48:42 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:48:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: <4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906080348o36588e43l7406d0e0021dfb88@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Lee Corbin wrote: > In the present case, some people are biased in > America's favor, and others resent the U.S. I do not resent the US for... being the US, i.e., for protecting both their interests and their ideas about "morality" as best as they can. I sometimes resent many US citizens' hypocritical attitudes as to this fact, not to mention their scandal when foreign peoples do just the same. I also believe that such lack of candor and perspective may not be in the best long-term interest of American people themselves. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 10:55:43 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:55:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20906080355s324a1ca6j9d65f152d753b4d0@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:17 AM, spike wrote: > What would happen BillK? ?If you had 30 to 50 women who had been raised on > Mars with only women, and no input from Earth, any speculations anyone? ?I > think they would somehow have an instinct to take that first guy for a roll > in the hay, and might actually find it delightful. ?Don't know however. In any event, it would be pretty easy to establish a kind of religion or unreligion seeing the Coming of Men as the pivotal event, and coupling as the way to Rapture... -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 11:05:13 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:05:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906080405k60ad6f77g531c87196054e17d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/8 painlord2k at libero.it : > Oh my.... the naivety of the people. > Do you really believe that people that kill so easily have any qualms to > make alliances of opportunity with anyone else? Everybody does. The point is that some alliances are less likely than other, especially unless they are forced upon the parties concerned... > Iran is know to arm al-Qaeda linked and Ba'ath ?linked insurgent / > terrorists / militias in Iraq, the sunni Hamas in Gaza, the Sunni Sudanese. Iran clapped their hands about the invasion of Afghanistan, and were not so sad about that of Iraq either. Why should they? They got the status of leading regional power served on a tray, and they used to hate Iraqis (and perhaps Arabs in general) more than Americans... -- Stefano Vaj From kanzure at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 11:46:18 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:46:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Body Hacking] Re: [Open Manufacturing] Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: <9964e90a0906072134q4636477dl1c1157db4fb30ba5@mail.gmail.com> References: <301934.25186.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com> <4A2C67CA.2040503@kurtz-fernhout.com> <55ad6af70906071834o318e2da6h3b3b1a99e80b40d1@mail.gmail.com> <9964e90a0906072134q4636477dl1c1157db4fb30ba5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906080446nb14c136oedeaf330340c3bb7@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Ben Floyd wrote: > Not really on topic about actual hardware (since I don't know of any), but > have any studies been done to watch the brain as someone types on a keyboard > who has been typing for a very long time? Or perhaps performing a specific > function (programming) while typing? There have been fMRI studies of people looking at images plus algorithms to figure out what the people are looking at. These hit the news and people immediately called it "mind reading" (it wasn't really mind reading). For transcriptional purposes, maybe it's sufficient? > What I'm getting at is that I have been typing for over 12 years, with the > keyboard easily memorized for at least 9 of those. I can type in my sleep > practically, with or without keyboard. As another aside, I sometimes type > out things on the desk if I'm angry about something but not in a position to > say anything about it. I would like to see if they could match brain > patterns to typing and convert those signals into a system that isn't > visually operated by the brain but a direct reading of brain signals. Here are some papers on the subject. http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/kb/ > Do we have the technology available to scan the brain that quickly (sorry > for my neophyte status on brain monitoring - I'm a programmer of computers, > not biology)? And if we do, could a study be set up to do something like > this? I imagine something where I meditate to clear my mind, and then I'm > shown a series of characters (sentences, programming structures, etc) that I > must type. I don't have a keyboard so I visualize in my mind the keyboard, > or "type" it out on a desk or something. I think that actally having a > keyboard may skew the results because of the brains need to handle force > feedback, sounds, etc. Then with this information a customized monitor > (helmet?) is attached that would allow me to type without a physical > keyboard. It would send the same signals to a device as a qwerty keyboard. That's like trying to type with a hammer. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From spike66 at att.net Mon Jun 8 13:00:06 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:00:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick ... > Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES > > My latest book, the science fiction long story collection > UNCLE BONES, just to hand this afternoon in the mail from the > small press publisher Fantastic Books. It's a handsome trade > paperback, with especially handsome surrealistic/noir cover > art by transhumanist Anders Sandberg reproduced beautifully. > What fun to have a book out on Monday (the crime novel I'M > DYING HERE, co-written with Rory > Barnes) and another on Friday... And more on their way. > > Apologies to anyone who finds this excruciatingly off topic. > > Damien Broderick Thanks Damien, we are proud of you man! Do ot apologise for when one of our own is making a good living selling his words, that is soooo cool. Do post on this topic early and often, at least several times with each new book. We are feeling something like those whose grandchildren have just graduated valedictorian from the university. spike From fauxever at sprynet.com Mon Jun 8 13:44:10 2009 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:44:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com><4A2BFEB3.4050600@rawbw.com> <580930c20906080348o36588e43l7406d0e0021dfb88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Stefano Vaj" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:48 AM > I do not resent the US for... being the US, i.e., for protecting both > their interests and their ideas about "morality" as best as they can. > > I sometimes resent many US citizens' hypocritical attitudes as to this > fact, not to mention their scandal when foreign peoples do just the > same. > > I also believe that such lack of candor and perspective may not be in > the best long-term interest of American people themselves. Quote that is apropos: "I confidently trust that the American people will prove themselves too wise not to detect the false pride or the dangerous ambitions or the selfish schemes which so often hide themselves under that deceptive cry of mock patriotism: 'Our country, right or wrong!' They will not fail to recognize that our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country-when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right." Carl Schurz, The Policy of Imperialism, Speeches, Correspondence and Political Papers of Carl Schurz, vol. 6, pp. 119-20 (1913). Olga From mfj.eav at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 14:42:37 2009 From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:42:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Profiles Series In-Reply-To: <48B66D51-D212-44C7-B592-B0B80B76CEA3@hempforhorses.com> References: <48B66D51-D212-44C7-B592-B0B80B76CEA3@hempforhorses.com> Message-ID: <61c8738e0906080742x4dbf6b68ie18d3c28c41b8b84@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Letizia-HFH Date: Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:02 PM Subject: The Profiles Series To: Morris Johnson Morris, This is what I know beyond the website: www.profilesseries.com. They are doing preliminary interviews to see if we are acceptable. They will take 10 hours of footage with which they will produce a 4-6 minute high end educational segment. This will be one segment of a 1/2 hour episode. Typically the segment will have an industry expert, and interview with the "LifespanPharma" and a 3rd party testimonial. This episode will have a nationwide distribution on Discovery Channel, Bravo, which reaches 80 million households. Internationally, it will be broadcast over Voice of America in 200 cities and 96 million households. Nationally syndicated to 30 million households in the top 50 markets at peak and prime times. Also, they will produce a 1-minute high end commercial based on exactly what we want to say. This will be broadcast 10 times regionally on major news and cable networks like CNN, MSNBC, Fox , etc. in cities of our choosing. They will distribute a 6-8 minute documentary on internet websites like YouTube (www.youtube.com/profileseries), Google, etc. It will be digitized for use on our website. They will also direct email target markets which we will decide on. They will also produce a corporate DVD with interviews, graphics, voice over narration. At the end of the project, they will give us the rights to the program and a master copy. The requirements are that they have reasonable access to Lifespan Pharma, the right people for on-camera, availability within the next 3-4 months. The fee is $24,000. The producer is Jason Smith, 561-206-6450, ext. 113. I told them we would have a decision by Monday, June 8. Since they want to emphasize the human aspects of hemp benefits, Lana and I think you guys would be a better fit. Letizia -- LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc. Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. SW34-01-16-w2nd meridian 306-447-4944 701-240-9411 Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals @ hempforhorses.com http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com megao at sasktel.net,mfj.eav at gmail.com extropian.pharmer at gmail.com To ask to be my facebook friend: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=1276717946 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 15:00:22 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:00:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space Message-ID: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227117.000-inflatable-tower-could-climb-to-the-edge-of-space.html "A GIANT inflatable tower could carry people to the edge of space without the need for a rocket, and could be completed much sooner than a cable-based space elevator, its proponents claim. Inflatable pneumatic modules already used in some spacecraft could be assembled into a 15-kilometre-high tower, say Brendan Quine, Raj Seth and George Zhu at York University in Toronto, Canada, writing in Acta Astronautica (DOI: 10.1016/j.actaastro.2009.02.018). If built from a suitable mountain top it could reach an altitude of around 20 kilometres, where it could be used for atmospheric research, tourism, telecoms or launching spacecraft." -Dave From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 15:33:32 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:33:32 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? Message-ID: On 6/7/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > But I was able to give up cigarettes, alcohol, coffee and > almost all black tea without *dreadful* trouble (although I needed about 4 > runs at the smokes over a decade or so--that stuff is *seriously* > habituating/addictive). > I'm with you on giving up cigarettes. But I thought there were benefits to be gained from alcohol, coffee and black (or green) tea. All in moderation of course. Have you heard otherwise? Don't answer onlist if your abstinence is due to your personal problems. i.e. that embarrassing incident with the wallaby when you were a teenager. BillK From max at maxmore.com Mon Jun 8 15:33:32 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:33:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Metanexus Conference, transhumanist speakers Message-ID: <200906081600.n58G0MnE007340@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Natasha Vita-More, Aubrey de Grey, and I will be speaking at the Mexanexus Conference in July, engaging in debate with critics: http://metanexus.net/conference2009/agenda.aspx. Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 16:48:15 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:48:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580930c20906080948s42ffd510k6fd646418a7cc98a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:33 PM, BillK wrote: > But I thought there were benefits to be gained from alcohol, coffee > and black (or green) tea. All in moderation of course. In principle, nothing prevents something that is healthy to be also "addictive". Think for instance of the chemicals produced by strenous aerobic work. The issue in my understanding was not whether something is harmful, but rather whether you can easily do without it if you so decide. -- Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 8 16:56:22 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:56:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> <8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> At 06:00 AM 6/8/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >We are feeling something like those whose grandchildren have just graduated >valedictorian from the university. Or in this case, like those whose granddad has tottered to the store and back without his walker frame... :) There's a link to a San Antonio site run by the sf artist John Picacio that mentions the two latest books and a forthcoming interview: Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 8 17:02:04 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:02:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608115709.023b7ce8@satx.rr.com> At 03:33 PM 6/8/2009 +0000, BillK wrote: >I thought there were benefits to be gained from alcohol, coffee >and black (or green) tea. All in moderation of course. True. >Have you heard otherwise? Only for people with certain physiological problems. I have to keep my pulse and BP under control. (And there is, of course, the wallaby to think of.) But I was *majorly* addicted to black tea made from leaf, not pissy teabags--a strong cup every hour at least--and was able to get it down to 2 or 3 weak teas a day, or none at all, without more than a week of headache and irritability. Damien Broderick From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 16:45:21 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space Message-ID: <235426.98552.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Dave Sill wrote: > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227117.000-inflatable-tower-could-climb-to-the-edge-of-space.html > > "A GIANT inflatable tower could carry people to the edge of > space > without the need for a rocket, and could be completed much > sooner than > a cable-based space elevator, its proponents claim. > > Inflatable pneumatic modules already used in some > spacecraft could be > assembled into a 15-kilometre-high tower, say Brendan > Quine, Raj Seth > and George Zhu at York University in Toronto, Canada, > writing in Acta > Astronautica (DOI: 10.1016/j.actaastro.2009.02.018). If > built from a > suitable mountain top it could reach an altitude of around > 20 > kilometres, where it could be used for atmospheric > research, tourism, > telecoms or launching spacecraft." I wonder what load it could support. I don't think such a tower need reach 200 km to be of use. One only a few tens of km tall and that could, I guess, support a decent-sized booster near the top might be used to launch people and payloads onto orbit from a very high altitude. Regards, Dan From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 17:31:45 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13/was Re: Mary Magdelene? Message-ID: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/5/09, Dan wrote: > I'm not so sure. People claiming to be members of > both faiths have committed genocides and all lesser > crimes. If one were to look for frequencies here, then > I'm not so sure the data would support either being better > or worse. That said, Christians and Muslims living in > modern secularized societies tend to be, on the whole, more > peaceful than either living in non-secular societies, > especially ones dominated by fanatics from their particular > religion. The great mass of Muslims -- like the great > mass of Christians or the great mass of people in general -- > appear to be peaceful under most circumstances. I mean > they are not, to my knowledge, carrying out this passage -- > one you're probably familiar with, given your knowledge of > Islam: > > "If you hear it said about one of the towns given to you to > live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led > the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go > and worship other gods," then you must inquire, probe and > investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it > has been proved that this detestable thing has been done > among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live > in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its > livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the > middle of the public square and completely burn the town and > all its plunder... It is to remain a ruin forever, > never to be rebuilt." > > Are they? Someone responded off list that this was not from the Koran. And that person was right! It's actually from Deuteronomy: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0513.htm (Of course, I used a different translation.) Does everyone agree that the passage calls for genocide against believers of other religions? Is anyone here ready to use this passage -- part of both the Hebrew and standard Christian Bibles -- to tar all Jews or Christians as genocidal?* I hope not! And, if not, why not use the same logic with Muslims? Regards, Dan * Granted, almost all members of both those faiths -- and their sects -- can use some form of interpretation to say that this passage is no longer in effect. My guess is most Jews and Christians are unaware of the passage -- or have not focused on it. (I bring up the latter because many a Bible-thumper I've met can quote quite a number of verses from the Bible, but usually don't put them together in any rigorous way. This is why, e.g., the sort of parallel reading of the Gospels shows inconsistencies -- inconsistencies that any serious reader of the Bible would find, but that most simply are unaware of even having read the inconsistent passages. So why are they unaware? I can only think that the Bible is long and like most works people are no keeping in mind each detail with a mind to spotting mistakes. This is no different than, say, someone reading Raymond Chandler's novel _The Big Sleep_ and missing that one of the murders is never solved at the end.) From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 17:37:17 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:37:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608115709.023b7ce8@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608115709.023b7ce8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906081037p48ec33c9q3825ac94f5dfc006@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > But I was *majorly* addicted to black tea made from leaf, not pissy > teabags--a strong cup every hour at least--and was able to get it down to 2 > or 3 weak teas a day, or none at all, without more than a week of headache > and irritability. Why, nothing that a quick fix of heroin could not cure... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 17:41:19 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:41:19 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13/was Re: Mary Magdelene? In-Reply-To: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906081041g34996ac3k3cc6531f350ede58@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Dan wrote: > My guess is most Jews and Christians are unaware of the passage -- or have not focused on it. ?( My guess is that those who *really* adhere to monotheist tenets usually practise "doublethink", especially when they do not have any other choice... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 19:05:51 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13 Message-ID: <866914.4405.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:31 PM, > Dan > wrote: > > My guess is most Jews and Christians are unaware of > the passage -- or have not focused on it. ?( > > My guess is that those who *really* adhere to monotheist > tenets > usually practise "doublethink", especially when they do not > have any > other choice... :-) Cute, but my guess is most monotheist members of these religions are not textual literalists. Even the small minority who are still have to do exegesis and interpretation. I was just trying, by quoting an obvious passage ordering genocide, to show that we can't just look at the sacred texts and draw implications on how so called believers will act. Regards, Dan From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jun 8 19:42:54 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:42:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13/was Re: Mary Magdelene? In-Reply-To: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2D69BE.6000603@libero.it> Il 08/06/2009 19.31, Dan ha scritto: >> "If you hear it said about one of the towns given to you to live >> in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people >> of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods," >> then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if >> it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has >> been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who >> live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its >> livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of >> the public square and completely burn the town and all its >> plunder... It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt." >> >> Are they? > Someone responded off list that this was not from the Koran. And > that person was right! It's actually from Deuteronomy: What gave up the masquerade was the burning of the booty. Allah never asked Mohammed and his followers to give up a booty taken from others. I suppose because Mohammed always taken a large share for himself. > http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0513.htm > (Of course, I used a different translation.) > Does everyone agree that the passage calls for genocide against > believers of other religions? Not. This is an order to the leaders for killing the people that ask a Jews to SECRETLY serve other gods or of Jews that SECRETELY serve other gods in the cities of the Land of Israel that was given to the Jews by their God. Given the time and places when this was recorded, I suppose it was only wise to distrust and punish people doing this type of stuff secretly as they probably would become spies and traitors. Given the time period, where genocidal actions were common, it is not strange to be strict on matters of national security. (*) This is not a calling to exterminate any Gentile or Heaten there or in any other place. Nor it ask to kill Jews that change their religion openly. This would be in conflict with the following part, where he order to the Jews to give to the stranger that is inside the city. Why do you must give to a stranger if you must kill him also? > 28 At the end of every three years, even in the same year, thou shalt > bring forth all the tithe of thine increase, and shall lay it up > within thy gates. > 29 And the Levite, because he hath no portion nor inheritance with > thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are > within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that > the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thy hand which > thou doest. > Is anyone here ready to use this passage -- part of both the Hebrew > and standard Christian Bibles -- to tar all Jews or Christians as > genocidal?* I hope not! And, if not, why not use the same logic > with Muslims? The problem is that in Islam there are so many and large contradictions that is impossible to reconcile them. First Quran is the "words of God" not a translation of the sense. Quran is uncorrupted and perfect. If we start by the assumption that God is always right and then we add the assumption that a text is "the perfect and last revelation of God to the men" there is small to argue about his meaning. > * Granted, almost all members of both those faiths -- and their > sects -- can use some form of interpretation to say that this > passage is no longer in effect. It is not enough that they say "it is not longer in effect", it is that they act swiftly and harshly with the people that argue it is in effect today and harsher with the people trying to applying it today. Words are cheap, deed are not. > My guess is most Jews and Christians > are unaware of the passage -- or have not focused on it. Or maybe they understand it better than you. > (I bring up > the latter because many a Bible-thumper I've met can quote quite a > number of verses from the Bible, but usually don't put them together > in any rigorous way. This is why, e.g., the sort of parallel reading > of the Gospels shows inconsistencies -- inconsistencies that any > serious reader of the Bible would find, but that most simply are > unaware of even having read the inconsistent passages. But the inconsistencies in the Bible could be argued be due to the humans that wrote it and our inability to comprehend it fully. The inconsistencies in the Quran can not be argued to be due to God, as it is his work and not the work of a man and he is always right. Mirco (*) Compare this with today laws that (in Italy - but probably in many other places) prohibit the creation or the participation in secret societies. -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.57/2163 - Release Date: 06/08/09 12:30:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jun 8 20:02:49 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:02:49 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <580930c20906080405k60ad6f77g531c87196054e17d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> <580930c20906080405k60ad6f77g531c87196054e17d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2D6E69.8050006@libero.it> Il 08/06/2009 13.05, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > 2009/6/8 painlord2k at libero.it: > Everybody does. The point is that some alliances are less likely than > other, especially unless they are forced upon the parties concerned... When the police increase the pressure on criminals, they often ally each other. Or they do it when a new strong player show up. >> Iran is know to arm al-Qaeda linked and Ba'ath linked insurgent / >> terrorists / militias in Iraq, the sunni Hamas in Gaza, the Sunni Sudanese. > Iran clapped their hands about the invasion of Afghanistan, and were > not so sad about that of Iraq either. Why should they? They got the > status of leading regional power served on a tray, and they used to > hate Iraqis (and perhaps Arabs in general) more than Americans... I think they will hate Iraqi even more than before, if they are successful in keeping them a bay. Persians consider themselves superior to Arabs and having Iraq on the border with a democracy (how much imperfect it could be) where they have a theocracy must be a huge PITA for them. Given the pressure to pass a death penalty for apostates, I must suppose that the number of people disaffected with Islam and moving to Christianity and other religions or no religion must be large. People using violence to stay in power must be very afraid to lose the power, as they feel that what they did will be served to them in spades. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.57/2163 - Release Date: 06/08/09 12:30:00 From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jun 8 20:24:59 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:24:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gaypopulation In-Reply-To: <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> Message-ID: <4A2D739B.2040003@libero.it> Il 08/06/2009 7.45, spike ha scritto: >> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of >> painlord2k at libero.it > ... >> Christians are bound to try imitate Christ, Muslims are bound >> to try imitate Mohammed. Things are so simple. >> >> Now, look in the life and examples set by Mohammed and the >> examples set by Jesus. Then you decide if you want live near >> people trying to imitate Jesus or near people trying to >> imitate Mohammed. >> The difference is not tiny. > I am an atheist. Ideally, I want to live near people trying to imitate > Charles Darwin. Now THAT would be a cool neighborhood. Charles Darwin was not an atheist, IIRC. He was a Christian. Was he buried where? Why not Mendel? Did Mendel do something wrong? Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.57/2163 - Release Date: 06/08/09 12:30:00 From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 8 20:40:09 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:40:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Darwin & Mendel In-Reply-To: <4A2D739B.2040003@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> <4A2D739B.2040003@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608153307.0230c630@satx.rr.com> At 10:24 PM 6/8/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote: >Charles Darwin was not an atheist, IIRC. He lost his Xian faith. >He was a Christian. He didn't make a song and dance about his disbelief. He was conventional and shy. >Was he buried where? Yes, he was buried, unlike Jeremy Bentham, who was stuffed and mounted: As you surely know, Darwin was planted in Westminster Abbey. >Did Mendel do something wrong? Yes, he forgot to tell anyone, thereby setting back genetics by a generation or more. Damien Broderick From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 20:53:53 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Darwin the Deist/was Re: Mary Magdelene? Message-ID: <160885.99725.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > Charles Darwin was not an atheist, IIRC. > He was a Christian. Was he buried where? IIRC, Darwin started out as a Christian, specifically being schooled with the goal of becoming a parson. However, IIRC, he did not remain that way, but seems to have ended his days as a deist -- which is still not an atheist, but isn't a Christian. > Why not Mendel? > Did Mendel do something wrong? Why the need for specific celebrations to replace religious or nationalist holidays? It reminds of some atheists I ran into many years back -- and I'm an atheist too -- who want to set up special atheist holidays and even have some sort of atheistic services on Sundays. I told them one of the best things about being an atheist, for me, was not having to go to a prayer meet. :) Regards, Dan From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 8 21:27:43 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:27:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Darwin the Deist In-Reply-To: <160885.99725.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <160885.99725.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608162455.0230a5e0@satx.rr.com> At 01:53 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Dan wrote: >IIRC, he did not remain that way, but seems to have ended his days >as a deist -- which is still not an atheist, but isn't a Christian. This looks close enough: [7] From jrd1415 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 21:56:47 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:56:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: <4A2AC696.6060507@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> <4A2A9019.8060106@libero.it> <4A2AC696.6060507@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it : > Iraq didn't invaded Kuwait? Greenlighted by Bush I. > Iraq didn't invaded Iran? Greenlighted and then assisted by Reagan. > Iraq didn't gassed the Kurds? The Iraqi Kurds were helping the Iranians who were at war with Iraq at the time. Siding with, and actively helping the enemy in time of war is as bad as it gets. El Anfal was Saddam's payback for treason. Not nice, but neither is treason. Halabja was a battlefield where both sides used chemical weapons. And while we're on the subject, Rumsfeld under Reagan expedited the delivery to Saddam of the chemical precursors for his chemical weapons. > Iraq didn't killed scores of Shiite Iraqis? When, on the advice of Bush1, they rose in rebellion. And, as is well known, Bush1, with all the military gear of Gulf War 1 still close at hand, did nothing when Saddam responded by slaughtering them. > Iraq didn't killed political opposition's components? You mean like the Shah, Pinochet, Diem, Rios Mont, Noriega, and the entirety of the pantheon of US installed dictators? > Iraq didn't signed a binding armistice deal with the UN Coalition that > liberated Kuwait to avoid the toppling of the government? Yup. > Iraq didn't break the agreement in many ways? Nope. But the US did. > Did the US annexed the land conquered? >From sea to shining sea. Oh, did you mean Iraq? > Did the US build and used mass extermination camps... Does mass extermination count if one doesn't bother to build a "camp"? If so, then let's see,... : Pre-revolutionary (partial list): The holds of slave ships crossing the Atlantic and the wholesale slaughter of native Americans; Post-revolution, (partial list): Huks in the Phillipines; Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden; massacres of civilians retreating South at the onset of the Korean war; free-fire zones and a whole smorgasbord of atrocities in SE Asia; Iran, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua,... > or forced works camps? Antebellum Dixie, prison chain-gangs, Prison Industrial Complex > Did the US killed their peaceful opposition? There's a bit of deviousness built into the question, since opposition always starts out peaceful. That said: Outside the US (partial list): Iran, Guatemala, Cuba, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua,... Inside the US (partial list): American Civil war; wounded knee, uppity n*****rs (lynchings), Kent State, Branch Dividians > Did the US jailed or killed the US people that opposed the war? Which war? Vietnam (very partial list): Marijuana smokers, Kent State, Muhammad Ali, and thousands of other war resistors. Iraq (partial list) Jeremy Hinzman, Ehren Watada, and other military refusniks: Johnny Walker Lindh; Sami al Arian. > I can only say that people like you, then, opposed the war in Europe. > This changed when Hitler attacked the USSR. > Before it was a war between capitalists. Then become a war against fascism. > Things change when it is what you have dear that is in danger to be > destroyed. Until them, you are free to preach whatever you like, it cost > nothing to you. You're all ideology and no truth, Mirco. A half truth is also a half lie. They cancel each other out, and you end up with no truth at all. Instead of trying to torture reality to fit your prejudices, you need to find the truth and follow it where it leads. No one is to blame for the inevitable indoctrination of their youth, but if you care to be "set free" (as in "the truth will set you free"), then you need to dig yourself out of that hole. Read Chomsky. (Read Rand on the toilet and then put the paper to more appropriate use). You may not like or agree with Chomsky, but no one is better at showing the way to intellectual validity and autonomy. Good luck. Best, Jeff Davis I know it is a weakness of human nature to become emotionally invested in inconsequential tribal spats, but people who want to be transhumanists need to be able to get past that almost as a prerequisite. In fact, a good portion of the transhumanist ideals are all about shedding this behavior. j. andrew rogers From jrd1415 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 22:08:58 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:08:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MY IDEA. MY IDEA. MY ORIGINAL IDEA. ORIGINATED BY MOI. ME, MY, MINE. Let me remind you all that this is the idea I have been peddling here, howsobeit feebly, for going on eight years. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227117.000-inflatable-tower-could-climb-to-the-edge-of-space.html > > "A GIANT inflatable tower could carry people to the edge of space > without the need for a rocket, and could be completed much sooner than > a cable-based space elevator, its proponents claim. > > Inflatable pneumatic modules already used in some spacecraft could be > assembled into a 15-kilometre-high tower, say Brendan Quine, Raj Seth > and George Zhu at York University in Toronto, Canada, writing in Acta > Astronautica (DOI: 10.1016/j.actaastro.2009.02.018). If built from a > suitable mountain top it could reach an altitude of around 20 > kilometres, where it could be used for atmospheric research, tourism, > telecoms or launching spacecraft." > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 21:43:59 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Darwin the Deist Message-ID: <354315.19828.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 01:53 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Dan wrote: >> IIRC, he did not remain that way, but seems to have >> ended his days as a deist -- which is still not an atheist, >> but isn't a Christian. > > This looks close enough: > > > > responded that he had never been an atheist in the sense of > denying the existence of a God, and that generally "an > Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state > of mind."[7] He went as far as saying that "Science has > nothing to do with Christ, except insofar as the habit of > scientific research makes a man cautious in admitting > evidence. For myself, I do not believe that there ever has > been any revelation. As for a future life, every man must > judge for himself between conflicting vague > probabilities."> > > [7] This is compatible with what I've read and heard elsewhere about his views. Regards, Dan From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 8 22:24:58 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:24:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608172043.02221798@satx.rr.com> At 03:08 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Jeff D. wrote: >MY IDEA. MY IDEA. MY ORIGINAL IDEA. ORIGINATED BY MOI. ME, MY, MINE. I remember discussing the feasibility of such a tube in the sky with friends back in, oh, 1964. Sturdy inflated shell, evacuated innards=> seriously reduced air drag. A giant cannon, sort of. Or condom. Even with bucktubes and all, I still don't see how you can light up a rocket engine at the top (let alone the bottom) and not set the sucker on fire. Talk about the Towering Inferno. Damien Broderick From jrd1415 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 23:12:50 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:12:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608172043.02221798@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608172043.02221798@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-March/042205.html On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:08 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Jeff D. wrote: > >> MY IDEA. ?MY IDEA. ?MY ORIGINAL IDEA. ?ORIGINATED BY MOI. ?ME, MY, MINE. > > I remember discussing the feasibility of such a tube in the sky with friends > back in, oh, 1964. Sturdy inflated shell, evacuated innards=> seriously > reduced air drag. A giant cannon, sort of. Or condom. > > Even with bucktubes and all, I still don't see how you can light up a rocket > engine at the top (let alone the bottom) and not set the sucker on fire. > Talk about the Towering Inferno. > > Damien Broderick > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From moulton at moulton.com Mon Jun 8 23:33:14 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:33:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13/was Re: Mary Magdelene? In-Reply-To: <4A2D69BE.6000603@libero.it> References: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A2D69BE.6000603@libero.it> Message-ID: <1244503994.32199.145.camel@hayek> On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 21:42 +0200, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > > > Someone responded off list that this was not from the Koran. And > > that person was right! It's actually from Deuteronomy: I spotted that right off but then I had read that passage years ago. > What gave up the masquerade was the burning of the booty. It should be pointed out that in other passages there is not a complete burning of booty. So to somehow imply origin of a passage can be determined by the disposition of the booty is false. > > Does everyone agree that the passage calls for genocide against > > believers of other religions? > > Not. > This is an order to the leaders for killing the people that ask a Jews > to SECRETLY serve other gods or of Jews that SECRETELY serve other gods > in the cities of the Land of Israel that was given to the Jews by their God. No. The use of the word "secretly" is several verses previous and not in the verses Dan quoted. > > Is anyone here ready to use this passage -- part of both the Hebrew > > and standard Christian Bibles -- to tar all Jews or Christians as > > genocidal?* I hope not! And, if not, why not use the same logic > > with Muslims? > > The problem is that in Islam there are so many and large contradictions > that is impossible to reconcile them. Is there an ancient religious text which does not have contradictions or errors of logic and knowledge? Attempting to make one ancient religion appear better or worse based on some counting of textual problems is just silly. > > > My guess is most Jews and Christians > > are unaware of the passage -- or have not focused on it. > > Or maybe they understand it better than you. Based on what I have seen so far Dan is more correct in his understanding. > > But the inconsistencies in the Bible could be argued be due to the > humans that wrote it and our inability to comprehend it fully. Why do I need to point out the obvious? There are persons alive today in the Christian tradition who hold that the Bible was not written by humans but is literally the "Word of God" and is without error. Of course I doubt that anyone on this list falls in that group but that is no reason to act as if that group does not exist. Fred From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jun 8 23:45:30 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:45:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608172043.02221798@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608184430.02254d08@satx.rr.com> At 04:12 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Jeff autoquoth: >http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-March/042205.html Still doesn't address: >I still don't see how you can light up a rocket >engine at the top (let alone the bottom) and not set the sucker on fire. What am I missing? Damien Broderick From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 01:09:05 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:09:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com><8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES > > At 06:00 AM 6/8/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >We are feeling something like those whose grandchildren have just > >graduated valedictorian from the university. > > Or in this case, like those whose granddad has tottered to > the store and back without his walker frame... :) > > There's a link to a San Antonio site run by the sf artist > John Picacio that mentions the two latest books and a > forthcoming interview: > > ien-broderick/> > > Damien Broderick One of the stories in Uncle Bones is the best sf story I have ever read: The Magi. For sheer emotional impact, the visualizations, the scenes from that story are burned into my consciousness like a brand on a steer's flesh. For those who decide to read Uncle Bones, do save that as a main course for last. The thudding impact of the punchline, the inescapable logic, everything in that story is a masterpiece. Excellent work, Dr. Broderick! spike From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Jun 9 01:54:57 2009 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:54:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E24AE9180D649D495C37BB114FDF54F@3DBOXXW4850> Since I was diagnosed with MS this last year, I of course have been reading a lot about it and there was a story on coffee being a good thing for multiple sclerosis. However there is no way I could drink the equivalent amount of coffee that these mice were exposed to in the study. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/health/caffeine+link+to+ms+protection/2308287 Gina "Nanogirl" Miller www.nanogirl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "BillK" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:33 AM Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? > On 6/7/09, Damien Broderick wrote: >> But I was able to give up cigarettes, alcohol, coffee and >> almost all black tea without *dreadful* trouble (although I needed about >> 4 >> runs at the smokes over a decade or so--that stuff is *seriously* >> habituating/addictive). >> > > I'm with you on giving up cigarettes. > > But I thought there were benefits to be gained from alcohol, coffee > and black (or green) tea. All in moderation of course. > > Have you heard otherwise? > > Don't answer onlist if your abstinence is due to your personal problems. > i.e. that embarrassing incident with the wallaby when you were a teenager. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 01:46:17 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (p0stfuturist at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdeline... Message-ID: <769355.45958.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> This is like saying Stalin's apparatchiks let 5 million+ starve in the Ukraine, plus another 5? million+ turned into zeks, but they did improve heath care and empower women. Pyrrhic achievements. Besides,?you write here as if Iraq is entirely finished because of what Bush (admittedly a?hack who trashed Reagan?& Clinton foreign policy) did years ago. What about the future of Iraq? one?question now is: can a future Iraq treat women better? ? >Indeed.? Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical terrorists.? They >allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, etc.? They has full access to western media and TV.? Iraq was the most secular and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations.? They would have been the least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist radicals. "good enough for government work" --Wally Shirra --- On Sun, 6/7/09, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: From: extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org Subject: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 69, Issue 13 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 11:44 PM Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to ??? extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: USA Health Costs (BillK) ???2. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary ? ? ? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) ? ? ? (painlord2k at libero.it) ???3. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Damien Broderick) ???4. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Lee Corbin) ???5. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary ? ? ? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) (Jeff Davis) ???6. Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? (BillK) ???7. Re: Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? ? ? ? (Damien Broderick) ???8. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary ? ? ? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) ? ? ? (Harvey Newstrom) ???9. Re: Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! ? ? ? (Harvey Newstrom) ? 10. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary ? ? ? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) (Jeff Davis) ? 11. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary ? ? ? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) (Stefano Vaj) ? 12. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary ? ? ? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) ? ? ? (painlord2k at libero.it) ? 13. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary ? ? ? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) ? ? ? (Damien Broderick) ? 14. Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces ? ? ? (Bryan Bishop) ? 15. Re: [Open Manufacturing] Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative human ? ? ? keyboard interfaces (Bryan Bishop) ? 16. Re: USA Health Costs (Stathis Papaioannou) ? 17. 'Gendertopia'? (Post Futurist) ? 18. Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War ? ? ? (Stathis Papaioannou) ? 19. Re: Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? ? ? ? (Stathis Papaioannou) ? 20. Re: future fizzle (spike) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:08:22 +0000 From: BillK To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] USA Health Costs Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6/7/09, painlord2k wrote: >? It is not your or my or anyone right to choose how to use someone else > money. It is the right of the people owning the money to choose how use it. > Who are you or someone else to rule how they must use their wealth? Are you > morally better than them? > Yea! I don't want no doctor telling me what my disease is or what treatments might fix it. Just because he's got degrees and stuff and years of experience. How dare he! I'll do a google search and know just as much as he does. Get rid of all doctors - they're just wasting my money. I admit I can't do operations on myself. But my friend Fred could do the operation for me, if I printed out the instructions from google. Really, the whole medical profession is just a big con trick. We could all save loads of money by getting rid of them. BillK ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:22:14 +0200 From: "painlord2k at libero.it" To: rafal at smigrodzki.org, ExI chat list ??? Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: ??? Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: <4A2BCD16.2000807 at libero.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Il 06/06/2009 14.44, Rafal Smigrodzki ha scritto: > 2009/6/6 John Grigg: > >???it was only a matter >> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist >> organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres. Bush >> had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, >> but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD. >> > ### This is stupid. Yes. The invasion was not justified by WMD (this is what the press pressed because what bleed lead). The war was legally justified by the repeated violation of the armistice clauses. If the Iraq's government didn't respected the clauses, any and all powers had the right to resume the combat operations and topple the Iraq's government as they feel fit. Rights don't need justifications when used. People could disagree on the need to do so, or if it was a wise move or if it netted any gains. But the legal justification is correct. MSM journalists are notorious to write about stuff they don't know or don't understand and always in a such way that adhere to their chosen "narrative" and not to the truth. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 06/06/09 18:04:00 ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:24:03 -0500 From: Damien Broderick To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090607122253.02325158 at satx.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:22 PM 6/7/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote: >MSM journalists are notorious to write about stuff they don't know >or don't understand and always in a such way that adhere to their >chosen "narrative" and not to the truth. But thank dog, at least that never happens on the ExI list. Damien Broderick ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 10:53:55 -0700 From: Lee Corbin To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War Message-ID: <4A2BFEB3.4050600 at rawbw.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed What's the question here, and what's really driving the diverse views? Our emotions, let's face it, very often drive our initial answers to many queries, at which point our rational engines kick in to supply a nice "rationalization" of the answers we want to obtain. In the present case, some people are biased in America's favor, and others resent the U.S. Why America? Easy: since the end of WWII, the U.S. has been the "big cheese" among nations, and so of course garners the most attention. It also follows that the moral question "Is America doing the right thing" far outweighs "Is Burkina Faso doing the right thing?" As such, this very question provides a critical thinker a great working example so that he or she might? examine his or her own biases and, if there is any interest, try to overcome those biases. Standing back from just the current "Death Toll Imbalance" and taking an historical view, all throughout history invading armies commit atrocities. And contrary to what some here have written, indeed the soldiers often enjoy it. Armed conflict of any kind does tend to bring out the worst in us. The good news is that the levels of atrocities are falling off. I therefore thank Stathis for informing us that "In occupied Europe, the Germans sometimes tried and punished soldiers who committed crimes against the local population." That's news to me. Haven't we always been regaled with countless stories of the Germans taking out whole villages in reprisal for guerrilla actions? By and large, the pattern is this: in general, the wealthier and richer a nation is, the more likely that it will have risen to the point that it can afford the luxury of being less terrible to its subjects, including the new subjects of a conquered nation that often need to be taught a lesson, i.e. "taught respect" or, what amounts to the same thing, persuaded that further resistance will be punished. On this reading it's clear that one would expect the U.S. to be more careful about civilian deaths than the Taliban. If the Taliban or its ally succeeds in killing thousands of civilians in the United States in a "terrorist" blow, it's cause for them to rejoice; whereas if the United States blows up an aspirin factory in the Sudan, killing uninvolved civilians, the Americans will consider it to have been a mistake and will suffer a great deal of internal criticism. Stathis wrote "The Soviet war in Afghanistan was similar in type and scale to the American war in Vietnam. Do you have any evidence suggesting that the Americans behaved better than the Soviets?" It does seem to be the case that the U.S. committed fewer actions that we on this list would regard as atrocities. More important, however, is how the U.S.S.R. and the U.S. regarded their own atrocities. In the former the massacre at My Lai received a tremendous amount of criticism, and the generals and colonels involved---simply for the sakes of their own careers, if nothing else---would have prevented it had they known ahead of time. For a gripping view of Soviet atrocities, you could see the movie "Charlie Wilson's War", :) though that probably isn't what you wanted in terms of "evidence". It happens to be true that even taking their wealth into account, Russian soldiers and generals all throughout the twentieth century were well known for their relative brutality and ruthlessness. To me it's? appropriate to criticize nations and leaders so long as an attempt is made to do it with as little bias as possible. If at a deep level you resent the prestige and power of "the big cheese" among nations, do try to compensate for that; on the other hand, if you are pro-American or are an American patriot, in discussions like this some effort also should be made to overcome bias. The present conflicts that involve America are too recent for one to easily get an unbiased view of who is the *naughtiest* (given their background level of wealth). Almost all the information I see comes from politically motivated sources. The endless finger-pointing suggests to me that the pundits actually hope that their denunciations will have some political effect, and that that's what's important to them. That would be sad, if it weren't so ridiculous. Stathis wrote > 2009/6/6 John Grigg wrote > >> At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out >> very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who >> want to cripple Western civilization.? Yes, it's terrible that so many >> innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the >> insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover >> & impromptu human shields. > > And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that > innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding > among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure > that America would never be able to threaten other countries again. We see some examples of what I'm saying right here. How do we know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda delight in crimes against humanity? I don't think so. It simply stands to reason, however, that their humanitarian impulses are, due to their background, less refined than those of the west. If they cheer when a couple of thousand of American civilians die in a terrorist act, we have to take their history (and even their religion) into account. They haven't been living in the twentieth century long, if at all. Likewise, how do we know that "all the Iraqi [insurgents] wanted to do was make sure that America would never be able to threaten other countries again"? They have their own reasons for resenting "the big cheese", a lot of it cultural, and it's a mistake for western readers to imagine that those reasons are identical to their own. Far from it. Lee ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:38:32 -0700 From: Jeff Davis To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: ??? Mary??? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2009/6/6 painlord2k at libero.it : > When was the last time the American supreme commander gave the permission to > kill indiscriminately for two hours and the troops killed indiscriminately > for two days? And no one went to court martial and was hanged? Iraq in general, Fallujah and Blackwater in particular. You;'re completely whacked, Mirco. "Lips." Best, Jeff Davis "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities ???committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity ? ? ? ???for not even hearing about them." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? George Orwell ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:17:07 +0000 From: BillK To: Extropy Chat Subject: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Quote: The predominant model of drug addiction views it as a disease: humans and animals will use heroin or cocaine for as long as they are available. When the drugs run out, they will seek a fresh supply; the drugs, not the users, are in control. These conclusions, repeated frequently by politicians and the media, are based on experiments carried out almost exclusively on animals, usually rats and monkeys, housed in metal cages and experiencing a particularly poor quality of life. What would happen, wondered psychologist Dr Bruce Alexander, then of British Columbia's Simon Fraser University, if these animals were instead provided with a comfortable, stimulating environment? ------------- Alexander found that the rats stopped drinking the morphine immediately. He has written a book about drug addiction. He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that prior experiments in which laboratory rats were kept isolated in cramped metal cages, tethered to a self-injection apparatus, show only that "severely distressed animals, like severely distressed people, will relieve their distress pharmacologically if they can." ---------------- Even Oprah is getting in on this. they spend many hours playing roles that don't match their innate personalities and preferences, dulling the pain with mood-altering substances. Miserable with their jobs, relationships, or daily routines, they gulp down a fifth of Scotch, buy 46 commemorative Elvis plates on QVC, superglue phony smiles to their faces, and head on out to whatever rat race is gradually destroying them. --------- So, is drug taking just a coping mechanism for people with really desperate life circumstances? The monkeys in cages killing themselves with drugs has led futurists to speculate that transhumans will wirehead themselves into oblivion because they will be unable to resist the overwhelming pleasure. This is proposed as one explanation for the Fermi problem. But if this research is correct, then that won't happen. If our future lives are pleasant and fulfilling, then wireheading will just be an occasional pleasure and not a life-threatening addiction. BillK ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:36:42 -0500 From: Damien Broderick To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090607143356.023565a8 at satx.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This fits the claims of smart people like Samuel R. Delany who say they could take it or leave it, and seem to be telling the truth. I suppose the trouble is you can't be sure what sort of response you'll show until you're maybe in too deep. But I was able to give up cigarettes, alcohol, coffee and almost all black tea without *dreadful* trouble (although I needed about 4 runs at the smokes over a decade or so--that stuff is *seriously* habituating/addictive). Damien Broderick ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:09:00 -0400 From: Harvey Newstrom To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: ??? Mary??? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: <200906071209.01326.mail at harveynewstrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain;? charset="iso-8859-1" On Saturday 06 June 2009 8:44:10 am Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > 2009/6/6 John Grigg : > > ?it was only a matter > > > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > > organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres. > > Bush had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, > > but?obviously not?on a false?pretense regarding WMD. > > ### This is stupid. Indeed.? Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical terrorists.? They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, etc.? They has full access to western media and TV.? Iraq was the most secular and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations.? They would have been the least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist radicals. -- Harvey Newstrom ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:32:13 -0400 From: Harvey Newstrom To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Archduke Ferdinand Found Alive! WWI A Mistake! Message-ID: <200906071232.13886.mail at harveynewstrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain;? charset="iso-8859-1" On Thursday 04 June 2009 12:10:46 am spike wrote: > > "spike" wrote, > > > Evidence please? > > > > > > -- > > Harvey Newstrom > > Ja.? Cheney is saying now, and appears to be saying then, that Iraq didn't > do 9/11, (or if they did, the CIA couldn't prove it), but that Iraq had > some mysterious relationship with bin Laden.? Cheney isn't saying now that > there was no relationship between Iraq and bin Laden, only that Iraq didn't > help with the 9/11 attacks.? I see no contradiction here. In his March 21, 2003, letter to the speaker of the House of Representatives and president pro tempore of the Senate notifying them of the use of military force in Iraq after the failure of diplomacy, Bush stated that "the use of armed force against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001." On the December 9, 2001, edition of Meet the Press, Cheney said that it was "pretty well confirmed" that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with September 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta shortly before the attacks. On the September 14, 2003, edition of the NBC program, Cheney said: "If we're successful in Iraq ... we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9-11." -- Harvey Newstrom ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:40:34 -0700 From: Jeff Davis To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: ??? Mary??? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2009/6/6 John Grigg wrote: > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims have > killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual > justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way. >>>> > > Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war??? How > many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved??? Please > let me know... One million Iraqi dead in an illegal invasion,... let's see, out of twenty-five million,...that's four percent of the population.? So, if the US population is three hundred million, then four percent of that is twelve million.? So, to answer John's (rhetorical and profoundly stupid, manipulative, and biased) question -- (actually, it was John's lame attempt to box Stathis in, since, no one who isn't "with the terrorists" is "allowed" to advocate the killing of Americans) -- but, wrongo bongo again -- on the basis of numerical equivalence then, the "terrorists" (Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Taliban of whatever stripe, al Quaeda, oh hell!, let's just say Muslims the world over and be done with it) have a get-out-of-jail-free card for the killing of 11,992,000 Americans. Please check my math. > Americans?(even those in uniform) tend to feel very?sad about innocents > getting killed?due to the fighting... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.? Please please stop. you're killing me. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. > And the Iraqi people have scratched > their heads in amazement as American?troops?accused of war crimes have?(at > least sometimes) been?tried for their?wrongdoing and convicted. Hahahahahahahahaha.? Oh god this is good.???Hahahahahahahaha.? And that pathetical parenthetical,... oh god that's sweet. Hahahahahahaha. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? > Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold Which makes it all okay, right????The Taliban weren't "our" enemy until the Bush cabal needed someone to shoot at so as to distract Americans from noticing how Osama got away. > and?it was only a matter > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist > organizations and became a major supporter of them. Made up out of whole Neocon cloth. >? I just wish Pres. Bush > had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, Yeah, right!? If he had just gone to the American people and said?, "The Israelis have put in a order for the American military to take out Saddam and make the mideast safe for Israel.? They want Americans to die for the jews (there was a Holocaust remember, so that makes it okay) and for American taxpayers to foot the bill.? Emper... er, Vice President Cheney wants Iraqi oil for his pals at Halliburton, the military industrial complex wants the business, and we've got a buttload of new generals in the Army and Marines just itchin' to show their stuff, get some more stars, and maybe get a shot at runnin' for president some day soon on the Republican ticket.? What say, America, are you ready to rumble?!!" Americans would have jumped at the chance.? I can't for the life of me figure why he thought he had to lie about it!!!? Fuck the UN charter. > But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the > combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S. > possesses?? I shudder at the very thought... Because, twenty years after the fall of the Soviet Union your brain is still polluted with all that anti-communist bullshit.? Here's what you do.? Rip the cord from some unused appliance.? Cut it to length -- a foot less than your height -- strip the ends and tape them to your temples.? Now lie on the floor directly opposite an electrical outlet on the wall.? Place your feet one on either side of the outlet, and then plug 'er in. You've heard of colon cleansing?, well, I call this Jeff's DIY ES brain cleansing(you're gonna? get a colon cleansing as well, at no extra charge, but that's not the main deal, just icing on the cake).? Be sure that the cord is shorter than you are (to insure that when your back arches and your legs straighten spasmodically, the cord is jerked from the wall), otherwise you could cause yourself serious injury or death. If you are pleased with the result, and want more, you can attach one of the "electrodes" to your nipples or genitals for that special "National Security Frisson".? I refer to this as Jeff's DIY "Enhanced" ES Brain Cleansing. > > A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death toll > ten times (or a hundred times...)?what we have had due to?mass executions, > concentration/labor camps,?the firebombing of entire cities, starvation, > rape, body?organ stealing,?disease, and death march deportations. Not to mention puppies set on fire, dildoes in the shape Pirogis and egg rolls, and toilet paper with faces of American presidents printed one to a sheet.???Aaarggggh!!!? those evil commies, is there no limit to their depravity??!! > The > United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely. And what point is that, the point at which they cross the Iraqi border? > America has it's definite shortcomings, A vile slander!? Off to Guantanamo with him for the international waterboarding finals! >? but at least we have values and > principles to aspire to Or hide behind, until the veil is stripped away by al Jazeera and the blogosphere.? Why, oh why won't they just learn how to say "How high?" All we are saying is give American exceptionalism a chance. >(despite sometimes veering off in the wrong > direction, until course corrections are made) Despite sometimes veering off in the right direction, until course corrections are made > instead of merely always > pursuing power for it's own?sake and with no concern for human life and > liberty, which is the approach of our rivals. I don't know.? Sounds an awful lot like the approach of the US political class. > > At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out > very vicious?organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who > want to cripple Western civilization. Yeah, yeah.???And set puppies on fire, make all women look like Ernest Borgnine, make baseball illegal unless you wear a tutu, force Republicans to pretend that they're straight, etc >? Yes, it's terrible that so many > innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the > insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls?as cover > &?impromptu human shields. It's called defending their neighborhood.? They live there. The "human shields" canard is just standard, lame (but nonetheless effective) pentagon blame shifting.They much prefer (though they ever so deeply regret) killing civilians by the hundreds than risking the lives of grunts in house to house fighting. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **************************************** John, I feel badly about taking you to task so harshly, but it had to be done.? I hope you will forgive me.? I know your heart's in the right place. Best, Jeff Davis "Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they mind, and how long they remember." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Martin Amis ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 00:55:00 +0200 From: Stefano Vaj To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: ??? Mary??? Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: ??? <580930c20906071555j68ab0ddchf3d871d792d49208 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Indeed. ?Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical > terrorists. ?They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, > etc. ?They has full access to western media and TV. ?Iraq was the most secular > and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations. ?They would have been the > least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist > radicals. But the US happily managed to fix that, so that as soon as the g-men are away, the country will be well on the way to the Restoration of the Caliphate and to put Saudi Arabia to shame. -- Stefano Vaj ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:23:35 +0200 From: "painlord2k at libero.it" To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: ??? Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: <4A2C4BF7.4010208 at libero.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Il 07/06/2009 18.09, Harvey Newstrom ha scritto: > On Saturday 06 June 2009 8:44:10 am Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> 2009/6/6 John Grigg: >> >>???it was only a matter >> >>> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist >>> organizations and became a major supporter of them.? I just wish Pres.. >>> Bush had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out, >>> but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD. >> ### This is stupid. > > Indeed.? Iraq was one of the most hated muslim countries by the radical > terrorists.? They allowed women to go to school, hold jobs, become doctors, > etc.? They has full access to western media and TV.? Iraq was the most secular > and non-fundamentalist of all the muslim nations.? They would have been the > least likely of any muslim nation to have ties to terrorists or fundamentalist > radicals. Oh my.... the naivety of the people. Do you really believe that people that kill so easily have any qualms to make alliances of opportunity with anyone else? Do you really believe that these people lack of any strategic and tactical vision? Do you really believe they are all stupid lunatics unable to restrain themselves when it expedient to do so? The cannon fodder could be unable to restain themselves, the leaders, not so much. Sunni, Wahabbi and Shia could hate each other, but they will collaborate with each other against a common enemy. Iran is know to arm al-Qaeda linked and Ba'ath? linked insurgent / terrorists / militias in Iraq, the sunni Hamas in Gaza, the Sunni Sudanese. Until they kill westerns or destabilize Iraq, it is only good for Iran. bin Laden son (one of many) live in Iran. al-Zarkawi moved inside Iran to heal is wounded leg before becoming the head of al Qaeda in Iraq. They can squabble about how pray, but the will not let a chance to kill westerns to go wasted. There is time to settle these question after their aims are obtained and the US is out of the region. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00 ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 18:46:11 -0500 From: Damien Broderick To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: ??? Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090607183958.02549ea8 at satx.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:23 AM 6/8/2009 +0200, Mirco wrote: >They can squabble about how pray, but the will not let a chance to >kill westerns to go wasted. There is time to settle these question >after their aims are obtained and the US is out of the region. I usually feel that any topic on this list should be allowed to continue until the crazies are sick of shouting at each other--we can always skip the threads--but this is getting not only tiresome but ugly and seems to be throttling other discussions, rather like bindweed taking over a garden. The ExI list isn't a bigotry carnival 7 days/week, or shouldn't be. Just my opinion, of course; I'm not a moderator or list owner. Damien Broderick? ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:13:16 -0500 From: Bryan Bishop To: The Robot Group Mailing List ,??? Open ??? Manufacturing , ??? bodyhacking at lists.caughq.org, kanzure at gmail.com,??? ExI chat list ??? ,??? World Transhumanist Association ??? Discussion List??? Subject: Re: [ExI] [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces Message-ID: ??? <55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Are you trying to find something you can sit down and use or use while walking/mobile? I have no preference at the moment. It would be nice to find something ridiculously mobile. My main concern is that I like being able to quickly press out my special character keys for programming and other related tasks. With chorded keyboards you encounter this drawback between how many keystrokes you want to use to get to a variable and how commonly it comes up in every day usage. So, it becomes a bit of an nightmare of either different modes, mode switching, alt and switching, etc, etc. Playing it like a musical instrument isn't entirely my scheme. Another important point is that it should provide some sort of advantage over qwerty and dvorak layouts: maybe a nice typing rate increase. It is not immediately obvious what the maximum on human motion and agility is. When is it a problem of personal training, and when is it a problem of terrible keyboard design? I've been told that there are studies in ergonomics of how long it takes people to perform different subtasks in typing, like identification, targetting, pressing, lift-off, etc., though I don't know how to find those studies or whether or not anybody has bothered to use that information to help optimize some sort of automatic design of keyboard design, whether through displacing the plastic into different geometries and shapes, or doing something completely different due to the dynamic ability of the human body (degrees of freedom, or rather the domains of freedom which can be accessed with the muscles). Really the design process should be flipped around. The task is to type quickly and to type a relatively equal or relatively larger set of symbols out, without breaking the laws of motion of the human body, and so on and so forth. Brain implants might be one method, but unfortunately despite all of the literature I have read on microelectrode arrays, the best that I can find is crappy EEG studies where people look at a visual keyboard on the screen and think either "left" or "right" in order to choose a subset of the overall keyboard image in a slow attempt to choose which key to press. Not good. Hm. Still need to think about this some more. Handcuffing the wrists together and having a somewhat stable plastic shape on which to use the hands to type might be one method, but then you don't get the same hand-flying-across-the-keyboard freedom that you get in conventional flat surface keyboards. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:34:33 -0500 From: Bryan Bishop To: openmanufacturing at googlegroups.com, bodyhacking at lists.caughq.org, ??? ExI chat list ,??? World Transhumanist ??? Association Discussion List??? , ??? kanzure at gmail.com,??? The Robot Group Mailing List ??? Subject: Re: [ExI] [Open Manufacturing] Re: [Robotgroup] Alternative ??? human??? keyboard interfaces Message-ID: ??? <55ad6af70906071834o318e2da6h3b3b1a99e80b40d1 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote: > Bryan Bishop wrote: >> Really the design process should be flipped around. The task is to >> type quickly and to type a relatively equal or relatively larger set >> of symbols out, without breaking the laws of motion of the human body, >> and so on and so forth. > > I didn't notice it in the list, but have you looked at the idea of "data > gloves"? Basically, anything that records the relative motion of your finger > joints can be used for typing input, even without finger tips contacting a > surface. > ? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=data+gloves > You could also get haptic feedback in some and use them for 3D manipulation. In the back of my mind I was considering data gloves at one point, yeah. Haptic force feedback would help the problem that I was thinking of with them: namely, it's easier to do typing if you have some tactile sense of the topology of the interface. It seems to be how the motor cortex works, or something. So, force feedback might help. I wonder how to map it to 3D space though for different keys and motions ... that's a hard 5D image to visualize. > But if you don't need to be mobile, stenographer's Stenotype keyboards might > be the fastest. And might take several months to years to train on. > ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype > "A stenotype or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or > typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. A trained court reporter > or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 225 words per minute > at very high accuracy in order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter > test[1]. Many users of this machine can even reach 300 words per minute and > per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the > official record for American English is 375 wpm." Uh, what? I don't see how this satisfies the other requirement of special characters being easily typed. IIRC, stenography machines are mostly about phonetics more than they are about specific ASCII or unicode keycodes. > But voice input can easily get up to 150wpm, but with 1% to 5% errors. What about special keycodes? I guess if I go learn the international phonetics language it might be easier to map different grunts to different keycodes, but that sounds kind of annoying. > http://www.voicetypist.com/The%20Question%20of%20Speed%20and%20Accuracy.htm > "For instance, Nuance says that Dragon NaturallySpeaking (DNS) can keep up > with a user speaking 160 words a minute, with an accuracy of 99%. In a > noise-free setting with a practiced user, that's undoubtedly the case. But > it's almost necessary to say, "So what?"" - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:13:49 +1000 From: Stathis Papaioannou To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] USA Health Costs Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2009/6/7 painlord2k at libero.it : > True, to a point. > Without a real market, it is impossible to develop real alternative to the > current situation. > For example, it is not possible to have comparative quotations on the > value/cost of some procedures, like happen with the car market. > I want know the market value of a car? a look on-line or I buy a magazine > about cars. Why I can not know how much is the price/cost of a surgical > procedure? What stops you doing this? It's only if the insurance (public or private) pays 100% that the patient would not be interested in the cost, although the insurer would be. >> And >> even if the patient does his own research, an environment where drug >> companies and other vendors of medical products or services can >> advertise freely will result in a bias towards unnecessary treatment. > > Better a bias towards unnecessary treatments than a bias towards not enough > treatments. Then, in a free market, this become a client decision, not a > medical decision. The main point is to make possible for the buyers to know > what is buying and how much is the cost of it. I don't think you can make the general statement that a bias towards unnecessary treatment is better. As a doctor, if you think a treatment will do more good than harm, you recommend it; if you think it will do more harm than good, you recommend against it; and if you think it is likely to be neutral in its effects or don't know, you also recommend against it. Absent ethical considerations, an insurer will be motivated to reject payment for treatments that are necessary, while a private doctor will be motivated to recommend such treatments. Perhaps between them the right balance will be reached. >> Look at how much money is spent on "alternative" therapies with no >> scientific evidence in their favour whatsoever, and extrapolate this >> to therapies that are not completely inert, but which lack evidence to >> show that they are helpful in a particular situation. > > Well, I call this "extended experimentation". If it is done with the > informed agreement of the patient, there is nothing wrong. Main point is to > make sure the data about the treatment is recorded and used to gauge his > value. > >> You might say >> that it's OK if people are willing to pay, > > So I do. > >> but apart from the fact >> that these therapies may do more harm than good, > > "May" is the word, we are not sure. > Until the patient is correctly informed, it is his choice. In general, neither public nor private insurers will pay for unnecessary or harmful treatments, but a patient is free to pay cash if he can find a willing provider. This is fair enough if the patient is informed of the risks. >> it does add >> needlessly to the total cost of health care, and takes resources away >> from where they might yield greater benefit. > > It is not your or my or anyone right to choose how to use someone else > money. It is the right of the people owning the money to choose how use it. > Who are you or someone else to rule how they must use their wealth? Are you > morally better than them? But if it is tax money then we have a responsibility to use it appropriately. Even private hospitals in most places are regulated so that patients can be assured of a certain minimum standard. -- Stathis Papaioannou ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:39:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Post Futurist To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [ExI] 'Gendertopia'? Message-ID: <944179.89653.qm at web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ['Gendertopia'? or when one of the interviewees says "there's a whole world of genders out there" does it mean more hyperbole and confusion? an open question] ---------------------------------------------- ?Like plenty of other high school students, a group of about a dozen Vermont teenagers trundled into a youth center one day every week this spring to participate in an after-school program. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? But their program was different; it focused on gender. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The nine-week program, partially funded by the Burlington School District, was held at Vermont's Queer Youth Center and called "Gendertopia." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Gay, lesbian and straight students discussed a wide range of topics, from the characters in the book and movie "Twilight," to taking photos around the city that show the different ways gender is portrayed in popular culture. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "Most people come into it thinking, 'Oh, there's two genders and two sexualities' ... ," said David Kingsbury, a 16-year-old junior at Burlington High School who signed up for the program. "People assume it's boy and girl, but it's so much more than that. There's a whole world out there full of different genders." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The program is among the first of its kind to be funded, in part, with tax dollars, said Christopher Neff, the executive director of Outright Vermont, the social service organization running Gendertopia. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Neither the program nor the school district's participation triggered any objection. The tempered reaction locally to the program shows how far Outright Vermont and the issues it raises has moved into the main stream of youth social service organizations. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "It's got queer in its name. It scares the heck out of people. It's so important that people be able to see beyond any concerns or misconceptions that they have," said Eliza Byard, the executive director of the New York-based Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network, which has 35 chapters across the country. "Outright Vermont is fulfilling its mission in the most wonderful way." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The program was designed to help young people identify the subtle signals used to express gender and how not being aware of those signals can lower self esteem and possibly lead to an increase in at-risk activities like substance abuse or dropping out of school, Neff said. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "We often see a lot of homophobia or transphobia that happens on the basis of how someone looks," Neff said. "If you are making fun of me because I am wearing a pink shirt and that's sort of expressing my femininity, my feminine side, that translates into homophobia, but it has nothing to do with whether I'm straight or whether I'm dating boys or whether I'm dating girls. It has to do with the fact that I'm wearing a pink shirt." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Neff said the significance of the program is more than the money and the relatively small number of young people who participate. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "It's incredibly symbolic and very powerful," he said. "I was incredibly proud to be associated with them and I thought this partnership, this very unique partnership, between a queer youth center and a school district to run a gender identity based program was a new national model." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Burlington School Superintendent Jeanne Collins said no one has objected to the program. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "The district has been in the forefront on this topic for at least a decade, if not longer," Collins said. "We are very sensitive to celebrating the differences in people and accepting people for who they are and what they bring to the table." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? She said a factor that helped keep the program non controversial was that it was voluntary. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "We have very robust after school program," Collins said. "This is one of the options for the students who are interested. They get a lot out of it that will help them be much more inclusive and accepting of differences in their own future, which can only help them be successful." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Steve Cable, of Rutland the founder of Vermont Renewal, an organization that promotes what he calls traditional family values, said he wasn't familiar with "Gendertopia," but he knew Outright Vermont. He said he was supportive of the group's anti-bullying efforts, but not what he said was its focus on adolescent sexuality. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "It just makes me really nervous that sexuality and these very complicated social behaviors are being normalized and talked about with kids who haven't figured out even their life yet," Cable said. "I know that Outright Vermont promotes all gender identities and expression of gender identities, no matter how weird that might be." In 2000, Vermont was the first state that passed civil unions for same-sex couples and earlier this year was the first to pass gay marriage without being required to do so by the courts. It's also in the forefront with laws to protect gender identity and sexual orientation. Outright Vermont describes itself as "one of the longest standing queer organizations in Vermont" and the only one focused on young people. Neff said that for years his organization has done anti-bullying presentations related to sexual orientation and gender identity in schools across the state. He said the presentations have been universally well received. Byard said a number of national organizations have programs for girls that help them deal with the pressures that can lead to eating disorders or pressures that girls feel to be thin or beautiful. "Now it's only relatively recently that there has been real focus on the damaging effect of these same expectations on young men," Byard said. About 40 students signed up for the program, Neff said, and about 12 attended the weekly program. Sometimes the group watched a movie or had food. Much of the discussion was led by the students themselves, and it wasn't just for gay and lesbian students. "I'm straight, but I don't like using that word because then it feels like if you're gay then you're crooked, you're not meant to grow up in a certain way," Sophia Manzi, 15, a Burlington high school freshman, said during this year's final "Gendertopia" meeting. "I come because it's a really good program. The people, it doesn't matter what sexual orientation you are, they totally come in with open arms." Neff said "Gendertopia" wasn't about sexuality or who people are attracted to. "We're really clear that gender and gender identify is separate from sexual orientation," Neff said. "Hugh Grant and Russell Crowe have the same sex, they're both male and they're both heterosexual. But they have very different gender presentations. One is sort of seen as much more masculine than the other." Burlington High School After school Coordinator Amy Mills said no decision had been made yet on whether to run Gendertopia again in the fall, but she'd like to. "I think it worked well," Mills said. "They seem to have a lot of fun." ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:04:05 +1000 From: Stathis Papaioannou To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2009/6/8 Lee Corbin : > In the present case, some people are biased in > America's favor, and others resent the U.S. > > Why America? Easy: since the end of WWII, the U.S. > has been the "big cheese" among nations, and so > of course garners the most attention. It also follows > that the moral question "Is America doing the right > thing" far outweighs "Is Burkina Faso doing the > right thing?" It's also makes a difference that you're part of the American alliance. People tend to fall into two camps over this: those who say "my country, right or wrong" and those who feel that it's their duty to make sure their country does the right thing, since they have some control over it. >> And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that >> innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding >> among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure >> that America would never be able to threaten other countries again. > > We see some examples of what I'm saying right here. > How do we know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda delight > in crimes against humanity? I don't think so. It > simply stands to reason, however, that their humanitarian > impulses are, due to their background, less refined than > those of the west. If they cheer when a couple of thousand > of American civilians die in a terrorist act, we have to > take their history (and even their religion) into account. > They haven't been living in the twentieth century long, > if at all. > > Likewise, how do we know that "all the Iraqi [insurgents] > wanted to do was make sure that America would never be > able to threaten other countries again"? They have their > own reasons for resenting "the big cheese", a lot of it > cultural, and it's a mistake for western readers to > imagine that those reasons are identical to their own. > Far from it. Humanitarian impulses are not at the forefront when your country is being invaded. If the US nuking Japan was morally justifiable, then would it also have been morally justifiable for Iraq to nuke a couple of large US cities to prevent an invasion? -- Stathis Papaioannou ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:25:21 +1000 From: Stathis Papaioannou To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Are hard drugs not really addictive after all? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2009/6/8 BillK : > The monkeys in cages killing themselves with drugs has led futurists > to speculate that transhumans will wirehead themselves into oblivion > because they will be unable to resist the overwhelming pleasure. This > is proposed as one explanation for the Fermi problem. But if this > research is correct, then that won't happen. If our future lives are > pleasant and fulfilling, then wireheading will just be an occasional > pleasure and not a life-threatening addiction. Having complete access to the source code of your brain would not be like drug addiction or wireheading. This relates to the concept of second order desires, or desires about desires: "I wish I didn't have such an urge to use heroin; I wish I got as much pleasure from going for a walk as I do from using heroin." If the addict could simply adjust his brain in accordance with these wishes, there wouldn't be a problem. -- Stathis Papaioannou ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:17:07 -0700 From: "spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Subject: Re: [ExI] future fizzle Message-ID: <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9 at spike> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="US-ASCII" > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:30 PM, spike wrote: > > At first it would be only women and female embryos.? Then > there will > > be a planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live > on Mars.? > > Imagine being the first guy there.? Thirty to fifty women, some of > > whom have never even seen a man, otherwise the planet is > all yours.? > > Would that be cool, or what? > > > > > Or....... > > 30 to 50 women saying, > "You want to do WHAT???!!!!? ? Have you gone totally insane??? > Where's my tazer?" > > BillK What would happen BillK?? If you had 30 to 50 women who had been raised on Mars with only women, and no input from Earth, any speculations anyone?? I think they would somehow have an instinct to take that first guy for a roll in the hay, and might actually find it delightful.? Don't know however. spike ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 69, Issue 13 ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 01:36:56 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:36:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13/was Re: Mary Magdelene? In-Reply-To: <580930c20906081041g34996ac3k3cc6531f350ede58@mail.gmail.com> References: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20906081041g34996ac3k3cc6531f350ede58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8927EB57C5B2493290F0E41C905C498B@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj > Subject: Re: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13/was Re: Mary Magdelene? > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Dan wrote: > > My guess is most Jews and Christians are unaware of the > passage -- or > > have not focused on it. ?( > > My guess is that those who *really* adhere to monotheist > tenets usually practise "doublethink", especially when they > do not have any other choice... :-) > > -- > Stefano Vaj Yours is a good example, but there are plenty of others. If you have the stomach for it, read over the OT book of Joshua. I find it remarkable that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam never expunged this kind of material from their holy books. I do still recall stumbling onto it in my misspent youth, early teens, and being shocked as all hell that that stuff was in the bible. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 9 02:07:31 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:07:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> <8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608210608.02409a90@satx.rr.com> At 06:09 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >Excellent work, Dr. Broderick! Thank you, sir! I like that story myself. :) Damien Broderick From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 02:11:44 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:11:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <0E24AE9180D649D495C37BB114FDF54F@3DBOXXW4850> References: <0E24AE9180D649D495C37BB114FDF54F@3DBOXXW4850> Message-ID: <2d6187670906081911w4aa41dc7u92a321560289997e@mail.gmail.com> Damien's comments about giving up tea makes me think of the Mormon health rules known as "The Word of Wisdom." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 01:48:34 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:48:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan fortheir gaypopulation In-Reply-To: <4A2D739B.2040003@libero.it> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it><4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> <4A2D739B.2040003@libero.it> Message-ID: <9F4FD7BAEB724FCD8A4F1D2EBEF8E895@spike> > ...On Behalf Of painlord2k at libero.it > ... > > > I am an atheist. Ideally, I want to live near people trying to > > imitate Charles Darwin. Now THAT would be a cool neighborhood. > > Charles Darwin was not an atheist, IIRC. > He was a Christian. Was he buried where? > > Why not Mendel? > Did Mendel do something wrong? > > Mirco Ja, Darwin was a christian of sorts, 19th century English style, which was a brand of christianity that didn't fit too tightly most of the time. The reason I chose Darwin as one to admire is the remarkable books he wrote. With a few erroneous passages cleaned up, it is remarkable how modern and still very relevant is Origin of Species. The experiments he did, the careful observations, the lines of reasoning he worked out, all these are most remarkable even by modern standards. spike From max at maxmore.com Tue Jun 9 02:22:33 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:22:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? Message-ID: <200906090222.n592MgQ8026484@andromeda.ziaspace.com> In this link John posted... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom I was amused by the immortalist-friendly bit that says: ..."calling on all the boys who were under ninety years of age..." Max (45-year old neonate) ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 02:26:58 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:56:58 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/9 BillK : > On 6/7/09, Damien Broderick wrote: >> But I was able to give up cigarettes, alcohol, coffee and >> almost all black tea without *dreadful* trouble (although I needed about 4 >> runs at the smokes over a decade or so--that stuff is *seriously* >> habituating/addictive). >> > > I'm with you on giving up cigarettes. > > But I thought there were benefits to be gained from alcohol, coffee > and black (or green) tea. All in moderation of course. > > Have you heard otherwise? > > Don't answer onlist if your abstinence is due to your personal problems. > i.e. that embarrassing incident with the wallaby when you were a teenager. > > BillK Alcohol is bad for you, I'm afraid. Here's a transcript from the Aussie science show Catalyst, the episode is called "Alcohol" http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2272708.htm --- "Narration: Dr Tanya Chikritzhs and her colleagues have examined the evidence on alcohol?s benefits for coronary heart disease and reckon it?s a myth. Dr Tanya Chikritzhs: We were suspicious that what appeared to be a protective effect for alcohol was really due to problems in the methods of many of these studies. Narration: These studies showed that non drinkers had higher death rates than moderate drinkers which gave the appearance of a benefit from alcohol but that assumed that non drinkers were healthy people to begin with. Dr Chikritzhs: Well we found that the vast majority of studies included among the groups of people that they called non-drinkers, included people who once were drinkers. And the reason why they're ex-drinkers is because they were probably unhealthy. When you take out those people who have stopped drinking for health reasons, it turns it into a linear relationship - so as alcohol consumption increases, so does harm. Essentially removing any apparent protective effects of alcohol." --- And related: --- Epistemological Indulgences Ben Goldacre http://www.badscience.net/2007/12/epistemological-indulgences/#more-600 Christmas is a time for harmless lies, the chocolatey indulgences of the thought world. We know when to stop, because if we all acted on our belief in Santa there would be no presents: and then Christmas would be meaningless. My favourite Christmas traditions are the ?red wine is good for you? and ?chocolate is good for you? stories, which have become a festive science tradition of their own. Red Heart Wine, from Sainsbury?s, with extra antioxidants, is ?a red wine that is actually good for your heart?. Drink it down with new Choxi+, milk chocolate with ?extra antioxidants?. ?Guilt free,? says the Daily Mail, it?s ?the chocolate bar that?s ?healthier? than 5lbs of apples?. ?Too good to be true,? says the Mirror. ?Chocolate that is good for you, as well as seductive,? says the Telegraph. The Choxi+ manufacturers recommend two pieces of their chocolate every day. It?s almost as good as Fruitella Plus, with added vitamins A, C, E and calcium. These are jokes which have gone too far, fat and spotty on wishful thinking. Antioxidants are like an endlessly repeated Christmas movie that you?ve never quite watched from start to finish: let?s recap. Firstly there?s the theoretical plausibility, from biochemistry textbooks. Sainsbury?s tells this story in the style of a children?s story. ?Exposure to UV rays, pollution and smoking produce free radicals,? they say. Oh modern woes! ?Free radicals are compounds that cause cell damage, which in the long term can damage health.? It?s a simple tale of right and wrong. ?Antioxidants help counteract the harmful effects of free radicals.? It?s an attractive idea. But if you?re going to pore over the flowcharts in a biochemistry textbook, and pick molecules out at random on the basis of their function in the body, then you can prove anything you like. When you have a bacterial infection white cells build a wall around invading bacteria and then use free radicals - amongst other things - to kill them off, like tipping bleach down the toilet. Should we be selling wine with extra free radicals, instead, to help people fight bacterial infections, on the grounds of theoretical plausibility? Anyway. In the 1970s men who looked like Father Christmas made amazing discoveries about smoking and health: buoyed with the enthusiasm of it all, they decided that all other cancers must have lifestyle causes, such as diet perhaps. They started looking for data, and this is what they found: people who choose to eat antioxidant pills seem to live longer; people who choose to eat fruit and vegetables seem to live longer; fruits and vegetables contain lots of antioxidants. Are antioxidants the key to that link? Possibly. But people who choose to eat fruit and vegetables are getting a lot of good stuff into them, and they?re also like me: they?re a bit posh, they get plenty of exercise, they work, they have strong social supports, and more. So trials were done, in huge numbers, giving one group extra antioxidants, in pills, and the other group our old friend the placebo sugar pill. Some of these trials were stopped early because the people getting the antioxidants were dying faster. Overall, if you look at all the results on a big spreadsheet (a technique called meta-analysis) it seems that antioxidant supplement pills either do nothing, or worse, kill you quicker. There might be something in the antioxidant story, but they might be rubbish. You don?t read that everyday in press releases on wine and chocolate. So what does this do for our Christmas fable? Well fruit and veg are definitely still good for you. But you like chocolate. I?m not your mother. Eat it. Enjoy it. Believe in Santa. Chocolate is healthier than 5lbs of apples. And in the new year you can perform a symbolic purification ritual, involving five days of abstinence. You can dress that up in crap science too. --- The tea thing is all about anti-oxidants. They do nothing: http://scienceline.org/2008/03/03/ask-fox-antioxidants/ Even worse, they have negative effects with respect to exercise: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=100197 Coffee and health... seems dicey too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_and_health And a fun loosely related riff: http://www.badscience.net/2004/05/bin-the-pills-eat-your-greens-2/ -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Jun 9 02:28:32 2009 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:28:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com><8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: Congratulations Damien for continuing to accomplish wonderful things! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller www.nanogirl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES > At 06:00 AM 6/8/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: > >>We are feeling something like those whose grandchildren have just >>graduated >>valedictorian from the university. > > Or in this case, like those whose granddad has tottered to the store and > back without his walker frame... :) > > There's a link to a San Antonio site run by the sf artist John Picacio > that mentions the two latest books and a forthcoming interview: > > > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 02:37:55 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:37:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608210608.02409a90@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com><8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike><7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608210608.02409a90@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES > > At 06:09 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >Excellent work, Dr. Broderick! > > Thank you, sir! I like that story myself. :) > > Damien Broderick Here's how one can determine the quality of a story, sf or otherwise: how long the characters stay in one's memory. It has been over thirty years since I read Lord of the Flies, but I still easily recall Piggy, Simon, Ralph, SamnEric, etc. The Magi has characters like that, especially Father Raphael Silverman and Dr. Martin Herbert Baldwin for instance. Baldwin was ambiguously perfectly evil, perfectly saintly, wildly insane or all of the above somehow simultaneously, yet what he did was perfectly logical given the basic assumptions of his religious beliefs. I hope we get enough readers here to get a good Magi discussion going here, and if not here, create a focused literature group to discuss cool stories like that. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 02:16:16 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:16:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608184430.02254d08@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608172043.02221798@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608184430.02254d08@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Damien Broderick > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:46 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space > > At 04:12 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Jeff autoquoth: > > >http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-March/04 > 2205.html > > Still doesn't address: > > >I still don't see how you can light up a rocket engine at > the top (let > >alone the bottom) and not set the sucker on fire. > > What am I missing? > > Damien Broderick You would need release the rocket and have a cold gas thruster to push away slightly from the tower to eliminate damage upon ignition. I am not convinced that an inflatable tower is practical, but it is a cool idea. Recall that the Atlas Rocket was an inflatable structure of sorts: "Atlas was unusual in its use of balloon tanks for fuel, made of very thin stainless steel with minimal or no rigid support structures. Pressure in the tanks provides the structural rigidity required for flight. An Atlas rocket would collapse under its own weight if not kept pressurized, and had to have 5 psi nitrogen in the tank even when not fuelled[1]." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM-65_Atlas A heavy man can stand on an unopened aluminum beer can. The internal pressure along with the thin metal will hold him. Any tiny leak, and he will go down forthwith. Much was made of the Atlas pressure necessity as I recall. The early astronauts had zero faith in the emergency rescue thrusters. They climbed aboard with the notion that if the pressure were to be lost in the Atlas rocket before launch, the thing would collapse beneath them, leading to a premature expiration. That must have been one hell of a cool time to live and fly. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 9 03:09:43 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:09:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608172043.02221798@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608184430.02254d08@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608220347.0240a7f0@satx.rr.com> At 07:16 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, spike wrote: > > I still don't see how you can light up a rocket engine at > > the top (let alone the bottom) and not set the sucker on fire. > > > What am I missing? > >You would need release the rocket and have a cold gas thruster to push away >slightly from the tower to eliminate damage upon ignition. Aren't those birds held down when they're ignited, and only released when they're already burning like crazy? Isn't the thing likely to tumble if you wake it up in midair? This method requires the whole craft to be hauled up to 20 or 30 or 100km, unless the tube is largely evacuated and it launches somehow from the ground without setting everything alight. I suppose if you drag it up empty and fuel it through pipes pumped by a monster motor at the bottom... Damien Broderick From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 04:28:29 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:28:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60906082128of0a1163kb27b5f4518b4adb8@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Emlyn wrote: > > Dr Chikritzhs: Well we found that the vast majority of studies > included among the groups of people that they called non-drinkers, > included people who once were drinkers. And the reason why they're > ex-drinkers is because they were probably unhealthy. > > When you take out those people who have stopped drinking for health reasons, > it turns it into a linear relationship - so as alcohol consumption > increases, so does harm. Essentially removing any apparent protective > effects of alcohol." ### This review: http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/116/11/1306 mentions a number of observational studies which found protective effects of moderate alcohol use even though they ascertained alcohol consumption in healthy people and followed their mortality and morbidity patterns over time, thus avoiding the confounding factor mentioned above. There is also a discussion of a number of plausible mechanisms for beneficial effects of alcohol. Personally I hate drinking but since I am serious about my health, I force myself to drink a glass of weak Riesling wine (about 15g of alcohol, the only type that doesn't make me gag) every day. In fact, I am a bit tipsy right now, after my daily dose. Time to sleep. Rafal From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 04:40:38 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:10:38 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan fortheir gaypopulation In-Reply-To: <9F4FD7BAEB724FCD8A4F1D2EBEF8E895@spike> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> <4A2D739B.2040003@libero.it> <9F4FD7BAEB724FCD8A4F1D2EBEF8E895@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0906082140s4c86b35bo1fba34a055ab58bd@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/9 spike : > > >> ...On Behalf Of painlord2k at libero.it >> ... >> >> > I am an atheist. ?Ideally, I want to live near people trying to >> > imitate Charles Darwin. ?Now THAT would be a cool neighborhood. >> >> Charles Darwin was not an atheist, IIRC. >> He was a Christian. Was he buried where? >> >> Why not Mendel? >> Did Mendel do something wrong? >> >> Mirco > > Ja, Darwin was a christian of sorts, 19th century English style, which was a > brand of christianity that didn't fit too tightly most of the time. ?The > reason I chose Darwin as one to admire is the remarkable books he wrote. > With a few erroneous passages cleaned up, it is remarkable how modern and > still very relevant is Origin of Species. ?The experiments he did, the > careful observations, the lines of reasoning he worked out, all these are > most remarkable even by modern standards. > > spike >From what I've read of his writing, he was an excellent writer, pithy. He was of strong moral character. He was strongly rational. He was a spectacular observer of the world around him (really very useful if you aspire to rationality!), which is at the root of his discovery of the mechanisms of selection. He also seems to have been gentle (although he was into hunting), kind, and optimistic. Overall, well worth emulating. If we were mostly like Darwin, it'd be an extraordinary world. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 04:34:33 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:34:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] memetic influences RE: Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com><8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike><7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20090608210608.02409a90@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Flagrant Self-Promotion #2: UNCLE BONES > > > > At 06:09 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Excellent work, Dr. Broderick! > > > > Thank you, sir! I like that story myself. :) > > > > Damien Broderick ... > > I hope we get enough readers here to get a good Magi > discussion going here, and if not here, create a focused > literature group to discuss cool stories like that. > > spike To carry that thought a little further, do ask yourself the question: Who were the people who were most influential in your life, from a purely memetic sense? In some cases, it might be a parent, but those who hang out here are all readers. For that reason, all your most memetically influential people might well be authors. The younger the reader when one devours an author's works, the more influential that writer is likely to be, for we form notions much more readily in our misspent youth. In my case, the most influential three would likely be AC Clarke, Isaac Asimov and John Steinbeck, in that order. Two of those authors lived well into my misspent adulthood, but I had no access to them. What would I have given to have had that access, to be able to interact, to ask them directly what they meant in this passage or that, and where did they get this idea or that. All of us here have access to our own Dr. Broderick, who would have been a huge memetic influence on me, had I discovered his works in my misspent youth. The Spike was still a mind blower, even in my late 30s, at which time my mind was difficult to blow. By the time I read that, I already knew Damien as one of the lads who hangs out on ExI-chat. We are all missing a wildly rare opportunity to discuss literature and interact directly with the author himself. When else have you been in the position to pal around with a big name author? Ja, I thought not, same here. I propose a subgroup to read a particular work, such as Uncle Bones, or if that is too much, then a specific story, The Magi, then a couple weeks from now, come back and let us get a rip roaring discussion going, and even if you don't participate in that, The Magi is well worth your time. spike From max at maxmore.com Tue Jun 9 05:27:05 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:27:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol meta-analysis Message-ID: <200906090527.n595RDmg000033@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Thanks for posting that, Emlyn. These researchers (who seem to have several meta-analyses of alcohol) did find some protective effect of alcohol for coronary heart disease -- but not for anything else. Now I'll have to try to figure out how many normal drinks 72g of ethanol is... A meta-analysis of alcohol consumption and the risk of 15 diseases. Corrao G, Bagnardi V, Zambon A, La Vecchia C. Dipartimento di Statistica, Universit? di Milano-Bicocca, Milan, Italy. BACKGROUND: To compare the strength of evidence provided by the epidemiological literature on the association between alcohol consumption and the risk of 14 major alcohol-related neoplasms and non-neoplastic diseases, plus injuries. METHODS: A search of the epidemiological literature from 1966 to 1998 was performed by several bibliographic databases. Meta-regression models were fitted considering fixed and random effect models and linear and nonlinear effects of alcohol intake. The effects of some characteristics of the studies, including an index of their quality, were considered. RESULTS: Of the 561 initially reviewed studies, 156 were selected for meta-analysis because of their a priori defined higher quality, including a total of 116,702 subjects. Strong trends in risk were observed for cancers of the oral cavity, esophagus and larynx, hypertension, liver cirrhosis, chronic pancreatitis, and injuries and violence. Less strong direct relations were observed for cancers of the colon, rectum, liver, and breast. For all these conditions, significant increased risks were also found for ethanol intake of 25 g per day. Threshold values were observed for ischemic and hemorrhagic strokes. For coronary heart disease, a J-shaped relation was observed with a minimum relative risk of 0.80 at 20 g/day, a significant protective effect up to 72 g/day, and a significant increased risk at 89 g/day. No clear relation was observed for gastroduodenal ulcer. CONCLUSIONS: This meta-analysis shows no evidence of a threshold effect for both neoplasms and several non-neoplastic diseases. J-shaped relations were observed only for coronary heart disease. ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 05:31:07 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:31:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60906082128of0a1163kb27b5f4518b4adb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906082128of0a1163kb27b5f4518b4adb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670906082231u70c4f666o5dc63120f873a579@mail.gmail.com> Max wrote: In this link John posted... < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom I was amused by the immortalist-friendly bit that says: ..."calling on all the boys who were under ninety years of age..." Max (45-year old neonate) >>> Max, if you were to see a picture of a Mormon patriarch from those days, you would not be surprised to have them say such a thing! lol They definitely had the "Old Testament look" down cold. Yes, at 45 you are a neonate. And at 90 you get to be considered a mature man, but at 91 you die of old age! lol I know I would not want too much time with which to screw up my adult responsibilities... I found it funny that it was a complaining wife, who had to clean up a disgusting mess, that prompted the circumstances for The Word of Wisdom to come into being. >From Wikipedia: Smith once finished preaching a sermon on the Word of Wisdom and immediately afterward rode through the streets smoking a cigar.[31]According to Lyman, this was just one of many instances in which Smith "tried the faith of the Saints ... by his peculiarities." (One modern commentator has suggested that this may have been done by Smith to ensure that his followers' faith was based on the Latter Day Saint religion and not on Smith's personality or leadership.) >>> I'm going to finish this post on The Word of Wisdom and then next Sunday attend Church with a cigar in hand. Or at least do some laps on my bike around the building as I shout between puffs, "what prophet of the Church am I imitating?" John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam.raizen at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 05:06:25 2009 From: adam.raizen at gmail.com (Adam Raizen) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:06:25 +0300 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60906082128of0a1163kb27b5f4518b4adb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906082128of0a1163kb27b5f4518b4adb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 07:28, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Personally I hate drinking but since I am serious about my health, I > force myself to drink a glass of weak Riesling wine (about 15g of > alcohol, the only type that doesn't make me gag) every day. > The ancients considered it barbaric to drink undiluted wine. Maybe it would be more palatable if you diluted it. -- Adam Raizen Timendi causa est nescire. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam.raizen at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 05:38:11 2009 From: adam.raizen at gmail.com (Adam Raizen) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:38:11 +0300 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 05:26, Emlyn wrote: > Drink it down with new Choxi+, milk chocolate with ?extra > antioxidants?. ?Guilt free,? says the Daily Mail, it?s ?the chocolate > bar that?s ?healthier? than 5lbs of apples?. ?Too good to be true,? > says the Mirror. ?Chocolate that is good for you, as well as > seductive,? says the Telegraph. The Choxi+ manufacturers recommend two > pieces of their chocolate every day. It?s almost as good as Fruitella > Plus, with added vitamins A, C, E and calcium. > Chocolate may have some health benefits, but sugar and milk fat definitely negate any benefits it may have. You can make good hot chocolate with unsweetened baking cocoa, hot water, vanilla, cinnamon and nutmeg, and artificial sweetener, and thereby avoid those problems. -- Adam Raizen Timendi causa est nescire. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 05:21:49 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:21:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608220347.0240a7f0@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608172043.02221798@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20090608184430.02254d08@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608220347.0240a7f0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Damien Broderick > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:10 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space > > At 07:16 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, spike wrote: > > > > I still don't see how you can light up a rocket engine at the top > > > (let alone the bottom) and not set the sucker on fire. > > > > > What am I missing? There isn't enough atmosphere to support combustion at 30km. > > > >You would need release the rocket and have a cold gas > thruster to push > >away slightly from the tower to eliminate damage upon ignition. > > Aren't those birds held down when they're ignited, and only > released when they're already burning like crazy? Isn't the > thing likely to tumble if you wake it up in midair? > > This method requires the whole craft to be hauled up to 20 or > 30 or 100km, unless the tube is largely evacuated and it > launches somehow from the ground without setting everything > alight. I suppose if you drag it up empty and fuel it through > pipes pumped by a monster motor at the bottom... > > Damien Broderick With the proper control authority, via thrust vector control, swivel nozzles, intertial gyros, advanced digital control algorithms and such, even a tumbling rocket can be straightened and made to fly pointy end first. We can do that with current military technology; it is not near the technical challenge of creating a really tall inflatable tower. I haven't done the calculations on the inflatable tower notion, but my intuition tells me it would allow the tower to go higher than without the internal pressure. I am imagining a cone structure, perhaps a km diameter at the base, gradually tapering upwards, 30km or so. It could be constructed in sections: assume a km diameter base, 200 meters high, so about about 994 meters diameter at 200 meters height, where we would construct an enormous hemispherical dome. The first section would then be pressurized partially, and structural strength added to the dome until it was at about 20 atmospheres. Then the second piece would be constructed up to 400 meters and a diamter of about 988 meters, a new dome at that height, pressure gradually added to the second section, until the first and second sections are in equilibrium. Then the first dome could be removed, for it would no longer serve any purpose. This successive dome building, pressurizing the new section and removing the previous dome would continue all the way to the top, which would be in equilibrium at a mere 19 atmospheres (or one less than the bottom section in any case.) At the very top would actually be an enormous pulley, over which a single cable would be used to haul the rocket to the top. This rocket would have two swivel nozzles which could be used to direct the force of the thrust outward away from the tower. I haven't actually seen this version of the idea, and don't know if it is anything like what Jeff proposed so many years ago. Do let me perform some honest BOTECs and return when I know what the hell I am suggesting, for other obligations, such as fatherhood and husbandhood, demand my immediate attench. spike spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 9 06:18:07 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:18:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "The Magi" In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090605192907.023cd660@satx.rr.com> <8FEBE76293C746839469F802B879C349@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608114925.02214850@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608210608.02409a90@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090609011405.02412cc8@satx.rr.com> At 07:37 PM 6/8/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >I hope we get enough readers here to get a good Magi discussion going here, >and if not here, create a focused literature group to discuss cool stories >like that. Hmm, an interesting notion, if anyone cares to do that. I'd be happy to throw in the occasional comment or question. People should know, btw, that I'm grateful to Spike for proofreading the book and finding a number of typos I'd overlooked when reading the proofs. They lurk there between the other words looking innocent and whistling idly, the little bastards. Damien Broderick From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 9 06:26:57 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 02:26:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Darwin the Deist References: <160885.99725.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608162455.0230a5e0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <13390171BED846F79B46D92E0D1F2CE9@MyComputer> This is what Darwin had to say on the subject in his autobiography that he insisted was not to be published until after his death: "Disbelief crept over me at very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all of my friends, will be everlasting punished. And this is a damnable doctrine." Darwin's religious wife ordered this passage removed and so it was not in the first edition of the book. The note to the publisher in her own handwriting survives; she said: "I should dislike the passage in brackets to be published. It seems to me raw. Nothing can be said too severe upon the doctrine of everlasting punishment for disbelief -- but very few now wd. call that Christianity". After her death the passage was put back into later editions of the book. There are other interesting Darwin quotes: "The old argument of design in nature, as given by Paley, which formerly seemed to me so conclusive, fails, now that the law of natural selection has been discovered." "[The] very old argument from the existence of suffering against the existence of an intelligent first cause seems to me a strong one; whereas, as just remarked, the presence of much suffering agrees well with the view that all organic beings have been developed through variation and natural selection." "At the present day the most usual argument for the existence of an intelligent God is drawn from the deep inward conviction and feelings which are experienced by most persons. But it cannot be doubted that Hindoos, Mahomadans and others might argue in the same manner and with equal force in favour of the existence of one God, or of many Gods, or as with the Buddists of no God. I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any weight as evidence of what really exists. " As to why Darwin didn't say any of these things publicly during his lifetime: "My father advised me to conceal carefully my doubts." John K Clark From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 06:44:28 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:14:28 +0930 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> <2D75E135C85F46BF8D1B46F8E5CD09C8@spike> <4BA679F7046847CEAEC338AEB17BC1F9@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0906082344x6f82b3f1i468bd35ab5e539b3@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/8 spike : >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:30 PM, spike wrote: >> > At first it would be only women and female embryos. ?Then >> there will >> > be a planet full of young male volunteers eager to go live >> on Mars. >> > Imagine being the first guy there. ?Thirty to fifty women, some of >> > whom have never even seen a man, otherwise the planet is >> all yours. >> > Would that be cool, or what? >> > >> >> >> Or....... >> >> 30 to 50 women saying, >> "You want to do WHAT???!!!! ? ?Have you gone totally insane??? >> Where's my tazer?" >> >> BillK > > What would happen BillK? ?If you had 30 to 50 women who had been raised on > Mars with only women, and no input from Earth, any speculations anyone? ?I > think they would somehow have an instinct to take that first guy for a roll > in the hay, and might actually find it delightful. ?Don't know however. > > spike And suddenly it came over all Heinleinian... -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 06:56:51 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:26:51 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Darwin the Deist In-Reply-To: <13390171BED846F79B46D92E0D1F2CE9@MyComputer> References: <160885.99725.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090608162455.0230a5e0@satx.rr.com> <13390171BED846F79B46D92E0D1F2CE9@MyComputer> Message-ID: <710b78fc0906082356p3609ca32sa4b8682831ab8a10@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/9 John K Clark : > This is what Darwin had to say on the subject in his autobiography that he > insisted was not to be published until after his death: > > "Disbelief crept over me at very slow rate, but was at last complete. The > rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even > for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see > how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain > language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this > would include my Father, Brother and almost all of my friends, will be > everlasting punished. > > And this is a damnable doctrine." > > Darwin's religious wife ordered this passage removed and so it was not in > the first edition of the book. The note to the publisher in her own > handwriting survives; she said: > > "I should dislike the passage in brackets to be published. It seems to > me raw. Nothing can be said too severe upon the doctrine of everlasting > punishment for disbelief -- but very few now wd. call that Christianity". > After her death the passage was put back into later editions of the book. > > There are other interesting Darwin quotes: > > "The old argument of design in nature, as given by Paley, which formerly > seemed to me so conclusive, fails, now that the law of natural selection has > been discovered." > > "[The] very old argument from the existence of suffering against the > existence of an intelligent first cause seems to me a strong one; whereas, > as just remarked, the presence of much suffering agrees well with the view > that all organic beings have been developed through variation and natural > selection." > > "At the present day the most usual argument for the existence of an > intelligent God is drawn from the deep inward conviction and feelings which > are experienced by most persons. But it cannot be doubted that Hindoos, > Mahomadans and others might argue in the same manner and with equal force in > favour of the existence of one God, or of many Gods, or as with the Buddists > of no God. I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any > weight as evidence of what really exists. " > > As to why Darwin didn't say any of these things publicly during his > lifetime: > > "My father advised me to conceal carefully my doubts." > > ?John K Clark Nice one John. Here's something else worth saying about Darwin: he changed his mind. He clearly started adulthood as a devout christian, and through rational inquiry came to change his mind about it entirely. You don't see that every day. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 10:42:05 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:42:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13/was Re: Mary Magdelene? In-Reply-To: <4A2D69BE.6000603@libero.it> References: <196994.30228.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A2D69BE.6000603@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/6/9 painlord2k at libero.it : > This is an order to the leaders for killing the people that ask a Jews > to SECRETLY serve other gods or of Jews that SECRETELY serve other gods > in the cities of the Land of Israel that was given to the Jews by their God. > > Given the time and places when this was recorded, I suppose it was only > wise to distrust and punish people doing this type of stuff secretly as they > probably would become spies and traitors. Given the time period, where > genocidal actions were common, it is not strange to be strict on matters of > national security. (*) The terrible things these ancient books suggest that we do to people were probably not out of keeping with what was common and acceptable behaviour at the time. However, it isn't acceptable behaviour any more, and the change is not in the books (obviously) but in society, becoming increasingly secularised to the point where the nastier parts of religious writing can be ignored or re-interpreted. This has happened as recently as in the last few decades in the West: previously unquestioned religious laws requiring that homosexuals be killed or imprisoned have gradually faded away. But the problem with Islam is that the secularisation process has not been allowed to occur in many countries, or has actually been undone in places where it was occurring, such as Afghanistan (whatever their other faults, the Soviets were not big on religion). > But the inconsistencies in the Bible could be argued be due to the humans > that wrote it and our inability to comprehend it fully. > > The inconsistencies in the Quran can not be argued to be due to God, as it > is his work and not the work of a man and he is always right. I don't think many fundamentalist Christians would agree with you about the Bible not being the word of God. In many passages the big guy is actually quoted directly. You could say he was misquoted or misunderstood, but that would be blasphemy in the eyes of many Christians, as it is blasphemy for a Muslim to say that Mohamed misquoted or misunderstood or misunderstood the Angel who dictated the verses to him. Mohamed according to Islam is just a prophet like the others who came before him (including Jesus), but he is the final prophet who has the final word. Jesus actually has a special place in Islam, the main point of difference with Christianity being that the Muslims do not consider him to be God: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_of_Jesus. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:27:47 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:27:47 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population In-Reply-To: References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4A2A645D.3070200@libero.it> <4A2A9019.8060106@libero.it> <4A2AC696.6060507@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906090627n7b43d626w8e066755e16be0b8@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > > Read Rand on the toilet and then put the paper to more > appropriate use. While I remain way far from anything that could be characterised as "Randism", it remains in fact quite dubious that she would have condoned many of the policies adopted by the US governments in recent times, including at an international level. After all, couldn't a few of them also be read as an effort to enforce mediocrity on unwilling countries with the assistance of a conformist world? :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:28:39 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:28:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Robotgroup] Army Mechanic's Garage Tinkering Yields 18-Foot Mecha Exoskeleton In-Reply-To: <20090609003856.ROZ68.13650.root@hrndva-web15-z01> References: <20090609003856.ROZ68.13650.root@hrndva-web15-z01> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906090628r695479b4sfce4b62376ad3deb@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:38 PM Subject: [Robotgroup] Army Mechanic's Garage Tinkering Yields 18-Foot Mecha Exoskeleton To: The Robot Group Mailing List , "Austin-Hacking-Society at googlegroups.com" http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-05/man-machine -- ?-- -- -- -- Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus James Choate jameschoate at austin.rr.com james.choate at twcable.com 512-657-1279 www.ssz.com http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center Adapt, Adopt, Improvise ?-- -- -- -- _______________________________________________ Robotgroup mailing list Robotgroup at puremagic.com http://lists.puremagic.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/robotgroup -- - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:33:58 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:33:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan fortheir gaypopulation In-Reply-To: <9F4FD7BAEB724FCD8A4F1D2EBEF8E895@spike> References: <802172.58778.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A294833.70700@libero.it> <4ED7D8DF29A14195ABD029CB821C9DE8@spike> <4A2D739B.2040003@libero.it> <9F4FD7BAEB724FCD8A4F1D2EBEF8E895@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20906090633o27832911qf57ddc2a9a6d70d5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:48 AM, spike wrote: > Ja, Darwin was a christian of sorts, "Of sorts" being the operative words. I am inclined to doubt that, besides a certain degree of cultural conformism which in fact hindered on a number of occasion his scientific boldness, he had any real ideological or emotional investment in his "Church of England" denomination. Let us say that he mostly made the moves, said the words, and was displeased by disapproval in the circles of the good society. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:34:41 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:34:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol meta-analysis In-Reply-To: <200906090527.n595RDmg000033@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200906090527.n595RDmg000033@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60906090634x274e36a2u61f7d82d31c1e698@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Max More wrote: > Thanks for posting that, Emlyn. These researchers (who seem to have several > meta-analyses of alcohol) did find some protective effect of alcohol for > coronary heart disease -- but not for anything else. > > Now I'll have to try to figure out how many normal drinks 72g of ethanol > is... > > ### 72g would be too much - this is the threshold beyond which there is no protection. The optimal dose is 20 g (with a relative risk of 0.80) Rafal From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 13:36:26 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] If we were all like Darwin... mixed blessing Message-ID: <457514.25669.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Emlyn wrote: > >From what I've read of his writing, he was an excellent > writer, pithy. > He was of strong moral character. He was strongly rational. > He was a > spectacular observer of the world around him (really very > useful if > you aspire to rationality!), which is at the root of his > discovery of > the mechanisms of selection. He also seems to have been > gentle > (although he was into hunting), kind, and optimistic. > > Overall, well worth emulating. If we were mostly like > Darwin, it'd be > an extraordinary world. Yes, one where everyone would wait and wait and wait before publishing. Things would move extremely slowly as most would opt to only publish their ideas probably posthumously. Of course, some might welcome this, arguing so that so much less garbage would be published. I'm sure that would be, but only after losing so many gems that'd languish in someone's drawer or drive... Regards, Dan From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:38:41 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:38:41 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <4A2D6E69.8050006@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> <580930c20906080405k60ad6f77g531c87196054e17d@mail.gmail.com> <4A2D6E69.8050006@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906090638s2e5cbd6dx698a2e4e8ee2ed97@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/8 painlord2k at libero.it > Persians consider themselves superior to Arabs and having Iraq on the > border with a democracy (how much imperfect it could be) where they have a > theocracy must be a huge PITA for them. > Let us say that both Saddam's and the current collaborationists' regime kept in place by the arms of foreign forces, hardly appear that much more "democratic", even from a western unbiased POV, than the Iranian electoral system, so I sincerely doubt that the reason of their alleged superiority complex has to do with an "envy" on that subject... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:48:02 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:48:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdeline... In-Reply-To: <769355.45958.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <769355.45958.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906090648x4097af04rfdec3b8a4c97f4c7@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/9 > This is like saying Stalin's apparatchiks let 5 million+ starve in the > Ukraine, plus another 5 million+ turned into zeks, but they did improve > heath care and empower women. Pyrrhic achievements. > Why, it depends. If you were a serf with pneumonia or a woman threatened by execution through stoning, I think you would take "pyrrhic" at any time. Why do we remain so often obsessed with the need of identifying metaphysical enemies that could do no good, even in their sleep? This is probably the worst legacy of monotheistic religions in the modern world. As somebody said, you need not believe in an absolute Truth to kill people. But to kill in the process as well the truth with a small "t", this is surely of great help. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:50:38 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:50:38 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <0E24AE9180D649D495C37BB114FDF54F@3DBOXXW4850> References: <0E24AE9180D649D495C37BB114FDF54F@3DBOXXW4850> Message-ID: <580930c20906090650x530a90aaw6287da77515b8d23@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:54 AM, Gina Miller wrote: > Since I was diagnosed with MS this last year, I of course have been reading > a lot about it and there was a story on coffee being a good thing for > multiple sclerosis. However there is no way I could drink the equivalent > amount of coffee that these mice were exposed to in the study. > > http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/health/caffeine+link+to+ms+protection/2308287 > In fact, the study refers to caffeine, not to coffee. Have your tried to take just the latter? In my experience, an equivalent amount of caffeine is much better tolerated in pills and in relatively pure form, especially on a full stomach, than in US style coffee drunk along the day... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:51:43 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:51:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580930c20906090651y6222939csc66b9c8da93cd8ae@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > MY IDEA. MY IDEA. MY ORIGINAL IDEA. ORIGINATED BY MOI. ME, MY, MINE. > How comes that being (supposedly) based in the US you did not file for a patent? :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Jun 9 14:06:41 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:06:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com> References: <301934.25186.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200906091006.42622.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Court stenographers use a small chording keyboard with only 22 keys using both hands. They achieve phenomenal speeds by using a phonetic shorthand. First, they spell things as they sound phonetically. Second, they type whole syllables at a time. The left hand chords the consonants beginning syllables while the right hand chords the consonants ending syllables. I don't remember how they coded the middle vowel sounds. But by using this method, they punched a whole syllable of spoken language at a time. They are required to be able to type at 225 words per minute. Many reach over 200 words per minute. The second idea that might help you from this, is that they never used the special characters you speak of. They chorded out words for everything. (This was because all testimony in court was verbal.) So if someone said "question-mark", they would actually punch the chords for the syllables KWES- CHUN-MARK. This would be three chords that are no more difficult than the other syllables. I could see spelling out code using words, as I have done before in verbal discussions with coders. if [ i = 1 ] ; then echo "one!" ; fi becomes IF-LEFT-BRAK-ET-EYE-EQUALS-ONE-RITE-BRAK-ET-SEM-EYE-COH-LUN-THEN-EK-OH- QUOTE-WUN-BANG-QUOTE-SEM-EYE-COH-LUN-FEE The third idea is that they now use automated software to translate their syllables into english text. Don't know if this helps, but it might give you some ideas. -- Harvey Newstrom From spike66 at att.net Tue Jun 9 13:37:44 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:37:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Darwin the Deist In-Reply-To: <13390171BED846F79B46D92E0D1F2CE9@MyComputer> References: <160885.99725.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com><7.0.1.0.2.20090608162455.0230a5e0@satx.rr.com> <13390171BED846F79B46D92E0D1F2CE9@MyComputer> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of John K Clark > Subject: Re: [ExI] Darwin the Deist > > This is what Darwin had to say on the subject in his > autobiography that he insisted was not to be published until > after his death: > > "Disbelief crept over me at very slow rate, but was at last > complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and > have never since doubted even for a single second that my > conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone > ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain > language of the text seems to show that the men who do not > believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost > all of my friends, will be everlasting punished. > > And this is a damnable doctrine."... John K Clark Thanks, I never knew he said that. It reminds me a little of my own journey in faith. I knew of the damnable doctrine but my brand of belief at the time had the wicked just die and be just dead forever, not alive and suffering. My journey into disbelief was from examination specifically the notion of evolution, and trying to disprove it with every available brain cell. But with even half-careful observation and reasoning, it is inescapable that life on this world evolved. The road to disbelief is one I travelled kicking and screaming, alone. That must have been an odd sight. spike From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:06:41 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:06:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Robotgroup] Alternative human keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: <200906091006.42622.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <301934.25186.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55ad6af70906071813h4160ef1au2da4da540432d247@mail.gmail.com> <200906091006.42622.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70906090706q6f4bc66cl26d8880fc4232559@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > The second idea that might help you from this, is that they never used the > special characters you speak of. ?They chorded out words for everything. > (This was because all testimony in court was verbal.) ?So if someone said > "question-mark", they would actually punch the chords for the syllables KWES- > CHUN-MARK. ?This would be three chords that are no more difficult than the other > syllables. ?I could see spelling out code using words, as I have done before > in verbal discussions with coders. > > ? if [ i = 1 ] ; then echo "one!" ; fi > > becomes > > ? IF-LEFT-BRAK-ET-EYE-EQUALS-ONE-RITE-BRAK-ET-SEM-EYE-COH-LUN-THEN-EK-OH- > QUOTE-WUN-BANG-QUOTE-SEM-EYE-COH-LUN-FEE How many key presses is that, again? Is it one per syllable? By "one" I mean one set of keys being pressed at a single moment. And if so, then that makes me wonder since typing out that entire line isn't going to be too fun or ideal. I feel a quick script coming on .. ;-) - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Jun 9 14:29:30 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:29:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20906080348o36588e43l7406d0e0021dfb88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200906091029.31159.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Monday 08 June 2009 9:44:10 am Olga Bourlin wrote: > "I confidently trust that the American people will prove themselves too > wise not to detect the false pride or the dangerous ambitions or the > selfish schemes which so often hide themselves under that deceptive cry of > mock patriotism: 'Our country, right or wrong!' They will not fail to > recognize that our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare > of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling > to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country-when right to be kept > right; when wrong to be put right." > Carl Schurz, The Policy of Imperialism, Speeches, Correspondence and > Political Papers of Carl Schurz, vol. 6, pp. 119-20 (1913). Unfortunately, it now appears that the American people cannot distinguish mock patriotism from real righteousness. I am appalled at how easily the U.S. fell right into the patterns of Animal Farm and 1984. Double-speak-talk-good! Some people are more equal than others. -- Harvey Newstrom From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 13:54:53 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand Message-ID: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Mon, Jun 8, > 2009 at 11:56 PM, Jeff Davis > wrote: >> Read Rand on the toilet and then put the paper to more >> appropriate use. > > While I remain way far from anything that could be > characterised as "Randism", it remains in fact > quite dubious that she would have condoned many of the > policies adopted by the US governments in recent times, > including at an international level. Hard to say what Rand would have condoned or argue that because she would have condoned something that that means the "appropriate use" of her works is as toilet paper. That said, I believe she would have, sadly, agreed with "American exceptionalism." Even so, I'm not sure how she'd have applied her view of that today. For instance, she believed the US should have never gotten into Vietman -- and wrote so in the late 1960s.* > After all, couldn't a few of them also be read as an > effort to enforce mediocrity on unwilling countries with the > assistance of a conformist world? :-) Perhaps. I also don't see why some of Chomsky's foreign policy insights can't be combined with Rand's. Maybe not in Jeff Davis's mind, but many libertarians** seem to have no problem accepting insights from both thinkers. Regards, Dan * See the passages quoted in Russell Madden "Rand on War" at: http://home.earthlink.net/~rdmadden/webdocs/Rand_on_War.html and Chris Sciabarra's "Understanding the Global Crisis: Reclaiming Rand?s Radical Legacy" at: http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Sciabarra/Understanding_the_Global_Crisis__Reclaiming_Rands_Radical_Legacy.shtml ** Of course, I mean true libertarians -- not the pro-war ones. :) From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:33:47 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:33:47 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/9 Dan : > Hard to say what Rand would have condoned or argue that because she would have condoned something that that means the "appropriate use" of her works is as toilet paper. > > That said, I believe she would have, sadly, agreed with "American exceptionalism." ?Even so, I'm not sure how she'd have applied her view of that today. ?For instance, she believed the US should have never gotten into Vietman -- and wrote so in the late 1960s.* > >> After all, couldn't a few of them also be read as an >> effort to enforce mediocrity on unwilling countries with the >> assistance of a conformist world? :-) > > Perhaps. ?I also don't see why some of Chomsky's foreign policy insights can't be combined with Rand's. ?Maybe not in Jeff Davis's mind, but many libertarians** seem to have no problem accepting insights from both thinkers. At least some libertarians, as opposed to many conventional conservatives, think that invading other countries is a bad thing. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:41:32 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:41:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol meta-analysis In-Reply-To: <200906090527.n595RDmg000033@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200906090527.n595RDmg000033@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906090741q1b3a59a5sd9a542ec45c2d62b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Max More wrote: > Now I'll have to try to figure out how many normal drinks 72g of ethanol > is... > > Drink?! [?] I thought an intravenous shot was OK... [?] -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 330.gif Type: image/gif Size: 96 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 322.gif Type: image/gif Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Jun 9 14:43:59 2009 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:43:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: References: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Adam Raizen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 05:26, Emlyn wrote: > > > Drink it down with new Choxi+, milk chocolate with "extra > > antioxidants". "Guilt free," says the Daily Mail, it's "the chocolate > > bar that's 'healthier' than 5lbs of apples". "Too good to be true," > > says the Mirror. "Chocolate that is good for you, as well as > > seductive," says the Telegraph. The Choxi+ manufacturers recommend two > > pieces of their chocolate every day. It's almost as good as Fruitella > > Plus, with added vitamins A, C, E and calcium. If it sounds too good to be true, then maybe it is false. Or maybe I have allergy for phrases like "caloric" or "guilt free" (if I wanted to free myself from some "guilt", I would not need to pay money for this). The fact that they put some extra stuff into their product does not give guarantee on your body assimilating all of this. > Chocolate may have some health benefits, but sugar and milk fat definitely > negate any benefits it may have. You can make good hot chocolate with > unsweetened baking cocoa, hot water, vanilla, cinnamon and nutmeg, and > artificial sweetener, and thereby avoid those problems. After reading ("there" and "over there") some mixed opinions about artificial sweeteners I have decided to either not have it sweet or eat plain old sugar if I wanted some fun in my mouth. Since there is so much money pumped in, even if a-sweeteners are actually not so nice we may never know (I remember a story of tobacco funded "research"). Besides, there are still fresh fruits and honey, which are probably the best sweet thing (to eat). There are also chocolates with (almost) no sugar, they taste great but I don't know if they can be obtained in other countries - so far I have only had the one from Polish "Wawel" (if you would like to talk about it with a native speaker, spell it like "vah-vell" or he may not understand what you want). I believe it was this one: http://www.wawel.com.pl/en/produkty/item/g,1008,p,1076,Dark_7_cocoa.html and from what this guy wrote, it seems they are available at least in some places abroad: http://www.chocablog.com/reviews/wawel-gorzka-krakowska/ Regards Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jun 9 14:47:21 2009 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:47:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> From: "Stathis Papaioannou" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 7:33 AM > > At least some libertarians, as opposed to many conventional > conservatives, think that invading other countries is a bad thing. For sure. The late Harry Browne was very outspoken in his criticism of war (in general): http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne28.html http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/DogsOfWar.htm Olga From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Jun 9 15:22:04 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:22:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol meta-analysis In-Reply-To: <200906090527.n595RDmg000033@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200906090527.n595RDmg000033@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200906091122.05435.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Tuesday 09 June 2009 1:27:05 am Max More wrote: > Thanks for posting that, Emlyn. These researchers > (who seem to have several meta-analysis of > alcohol) did find some protective effect of > alcohol for coronary heart disease -- but not for anything else. > > Now I'll have to try to figure out how many normal drinks 72g of ethanol > is... Unfortunately, I have concluded that alcohol may not be protective for me. We cannot assume that any specific benefit is new to us and can be added to enhance our diet. We may already be getting the benefit at much greater quantities elsewhere. For example, back when they attributed wine's protective effects to antioxidants, I realize that I am taking many times more antioxidants than I could get from a glass of wine. When they started research into Resveratol, I realized that a single pill could give me more of the substance than a dozen glasses of wine. If the protective effect comes from dilating the arteries, I knew I used niacin to get an even greater and long-lasting effect. If the protective effect comes from removing LDL- cholesterol, my Lipitor pill does that so much more effectively. So depending on what the specific protective mechanism is, it may not add anything to my diet that I don't already have. All the experiments have compared average (bad diet) people with the same people who added a glass of wine. For that group, the protective effect outweighed any negative effect of alcohol (on the brain and liver, for example). But for myself (good diet) or similar group, we are already getting a lot of good effects. Wine may not add much if any. But even worse, the damage from alcohol may be the same or slightly mitigated by good diet. That is, adding alcohol may not add much benefit, but may still add much of the detriment. Since our equations are different than the average public's, we may actually get a negative effect from adding alcohol because we are already getting the good effects elsewhere without alcohol's side-effects. For that reason, I never jump on a substance as being good for me, just because experiments show it is good for the average population. I'm not average. I have to figure out how it works and determine if that specific effect is missing from my regimen before I can determine if it will give me any benefit. The more good we do in our private regimens, the more likely it is that these dietary effects become superfluous to our diets. -- Harvey Newstrom From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 16:46:14 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (p0stfuturist at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdeline... Message-ID: <279230.63838.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> That is correct. So why do we remain so obsessed with the need of identifying metaphysical enemies? Very sad, isn't it? in old Iraq, Baathists, women and the sick won, but victims of the regime lost. In the '30s, Soviet apparatchiks, women and the sick won, however victims of the?Soviet regime lost. A world?of winners, losers, hate, unintended consequences, deception & delusion.? I no longer think we LIVE in an uncivilized world-- not a real Life--?we EXIST. ? ? >Why, it depends. If you were a serf with pneumonia or a woman threatened by execution through stoning, I think you would take "pyrrhic" at any time. Why do we remain so often obsessed with the need of identifying metaphysical enemies that could do no good, even in their sleep? ?This is probably the worst legacy of monotheistic religions in the modern world. As somebody said, you need not believe in an absolute Truth to kill people. But to kill in the process as well the truth with a small "t", this is surely of great help. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:04:03 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:04:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: <200906091029.31159.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20906080348o36588e43l7406d0e0021dfb88@mail.gmail.com> <200906091029.31159.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906091004n4a8ec35bv1a5a5368b04ed6d7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Unfortunately, it now appears that the American people cannot distinguish mock > patriotism from real righteousness. In fact, I am more concerned about conceited and sanctimonious righteousness (which only too often mainly serves much more trivial interests) than with genuine patriotism. If I am not mistaken, most of the times the US found themselves at war were due to the former, and to those who rode it... -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:09:17 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:09:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: References: <710b78fc0906081926k4331a869na35673fa3b95dcca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906091009m5a25d83bh56303b112f31a2e6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote: > After reading ("there" and "over there") some mixed opinions about > artificial sweeteners I have decided to either not have it sweet or eat > plain old sugar if I wanted some fun in my mouth. I do not like the taste of "sweet" (salted, bitter and sour any day over it), but I think that if I ever felt like trying the experience I would go for the real thing, i.e., glycose. -- Stefano Vaj From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 17:12:52 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Democracy in action/was Re: The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War Message-ID: <238656.51771.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:29 PM, > Harvey Newstrom > wrote: >> Unfortunately, it now appears that the American people >> cannot distinguish mock >> patriotism from real righteousness. > > In fact, I am more concerned about conceited and > sanctimonious > righteousness (which only too often mainly serves much more > trivial > interests) than with genuine patriotism. > > If I am not mistaken, most of the times the US found > themselves at war > were due to the former, and to those who rode it... Actually, I think this is a general feature of democratic statism -- not just of the US. I think it's something Extropians and transhumanists would do well to avoid -- even ones who aren't necessarily libertarian. Regards, Dan From eschatoon at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:52:11 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:52:11 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> I am frequently surprised by how often the name of Rand appears on the list. I tried often reading some of her novels, but always gave up after a few pages because I found them too boring. My impression is that she was a very minor writer, with some interesting ideas like most writers, but certainly not one of the major writers of thinkers of the 20th century. I would not agree on the proposed use of her novels in the toilet because in my opinion no writer deserves that (try writing a novel yourself and see what I mean), but I don't understand the positive or negative fascination with Rand that so many people on this list seem to have. Can anyone explain it to me? Here in Europe most learned people have no idea of who she was. -- Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon aka Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco From eschatoon at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:55:45 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:55:45 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Metanexus Conference, transhumanist speakers In-Reply-To: <200906081600.n58G0MnE007340@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200906081600.n58G0MnE007340@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90906091055q77f54b11wccae543c44e58f1@mail.gmail.com> This sounds very interesting Max -- do keep us posted, and I am sure you good guys will beat the bad guys in the debate. Too bad I have not seen any webcast announcement on the conference website, I would love watching it in realtime. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Max More wrote: > Natasha Vita-More, Aubrey de Grey, and I will be speaking at the Mexanexus > Conference in July, engaging in debate with critics: > > http://metanexus.net/conference2009/agenda.aspx. > > Max > > > > ------------------------------------- > Max More, Ph.D. > Strategic Philosopher > Extropy Institute Founder > www.maxmore.com > max at maxmore.com > ------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon aka Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Jun 9 15:31:34 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:31:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13 In-Reply-To: <866914.4405.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <866914.4405.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200906091131.34400.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Monday 08 June 2009 3:05:51 pm Dan wrote: > Cute, but my guess is most monotheist members of these religions are not > textual literalists. Even the small minority who are still have to do > exegesis and interpretation. I was just trying, by quoting an obvious > passage ordering genocide, to show that we can't just look at the sacred > texts and draw implications on how so called believers will act. My guess is that most of the vocal right-wing political christians are well aware of this passage and would love to be able to kill nonbelievers. It is just that they are hampered by secular laws. But when you realize that these non-believers include atheists, muslims, gays, transgendered, liberals, minorities, abortionists, and other traditional enemies of the religious right, you will see that the killings already happen almost regularly. -- Harvey Newstrom From pharos at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:30:16 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:30:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608115709.023b7ce8@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608115709.023b7ce8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/8/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > Only for people with certain physiological problems. Both tea and coffee seem to have many benefits. Adding milk to tea destroys much of tea's benefits. Both contain caffeine, so drinking too much risks caffeine overdose. A small amount of alcohol also seems to have some health benefit but the risks from overdosing are much more dangerous to health, so the recommendation is to restrict drinking alcohol to less than 2 British units per day. Equals about 1 pint of ordinary strength beer OR one double brandy (50ml). Quote: A 23-year prospective study of 12,000 male British physicians aged 48?78, found that overall mortality was significantly lower in the group consuming an less than 2 "units" (British unit = 8 g) per day than in the non-alcohol-drinking group. Greater than 2 units per day was associated with an increased risk of mortality. -------- So I am still allowed an occasional glass of brandy in the evening. :) But the old joke still applies. You are not allowed to drink nothing all week, then 7 pints on a Saturday night out! BillK From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:33:17 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:33:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I apologize for the Rand comment. It was a gratuitous slam, impulsively thrown in, unhelpful, and disjoint from my point. She annoys me. Sorry. Never mind. Jeff Davis From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 18:10:59 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand Message-ID: <466039.70913.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/9/09, Eschatoon Magic wrote: > I am frequently surprised by how > often the name of Rand appears on the > list. I tried often reading some of her novels, but always > gave up > after a few pages because I found them too boring. I have to admit, I felt that way about half way through _Atlas Shrugged_, but I liked her other novels. I'd chalk this up to tastes. > My impression is > that she was a very minor writer, with some interesting > ideas like > most writers, but certainly not one of the major writers of > thinkers > of the 20th century. I don't think she's a minor writer, but I reckon this depends on what criterion or criteria you use to determine who's a major writer. Certainly in terms of continued readership, she's not minor. In terms of esthetic criteria, I'm not so sure, but I wouldn't shortchange her. Granted, she was writing in a style that was out of step with most of the literary avant garde. (Not completely. See, e.g., her play "Night of January the 16th" and some of her short stories, which, in a way, seem very 20th century -- in terms of technique and the psychological focus.) > I would not agree on the proposed use of her novels in the > toilet > because in my opinion no writer deserves that (try writing > a novel > yourself and see what I mean), That's charitable, though my impression is Rand was a pretty good writer overall -- not merely a passable one. I'm not going to say she was flawless; I don't think any writer is, though some have more and more glaring flaws than others. (I do think good writing is something that can be objectively determined within limits, so this isn't, in my mind, a matter of taste.) > but I don't understand the positive or > negative fascination with Rand that so many people on this > list seem > to have. Can anyone explain it to me? Here in Europe most > learned > people have no idea of who she was. It's probably partly a North American thing. Rand's biggest following -- and probably biggest pool of detractors too :) -- is located in North America, I believe. (Granted, she has a large following in New Zealand, Sweden, and other places.) I think she's a formative influence -- via her novels -- on a lot of Americans and Canadians, especially those with libertarian leanings. That's my guess. A sad part of this, though, is that people tend to state she's either a towering artist or crap based on whether they, respectively, accept or reject her philosophy and politics. Regards, Dan From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 19:20:33 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:20:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: <580930c20906090651y6222939csc66b9c8da93cd8ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20906090651y6222939csc66b9c8da93cd8ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/6/9 Stefano Vaj : > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: >> >> MY IDEA. ?MY IDEA. ?MY ORIGINAL IDEA. ?ORIGINATED BY MOI. ?ME, MY, MINE. > > How comes that being (supposedly) based in the US you did not file for a > patent? :-) You've got me there. Pure laziness. It's not the money (too much paperwork) I just want recognition as the guy who thought of it first. And if someone thought of it before me, fine. Show me. I just want the Nobel Prize committee to have the straight dope. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything you see I owe to spaghetti." Sophia Loren From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Jun 9 18:57:28 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:57:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090609145728.xy654f7rk0w8cc8w@webmail.natasha.cc> Ah, come on ... "The Fountainhead" movie! Gary Cooper all manly man and Patricia Neal as the deep-voiced beauty who allures him to her and who he causes to beg for more. King Vidor, the director, also directed War and Piece (Tolstoy) with Hepburn and Fonda. Not so *hot* as The Fountain, but nonetheless it's an American classic. Gregory Peck and Quoting Eschatoon Magic : > I am frequently surprised by how often the name of Rand appears on the > list. I tried often reading some of her novels, but always gave up > after a few pages because I found them too boring. My impression is > that she was a very minor writer, with some interesting ideas like > most writers, but certainly not one of the major writers of thinkers > of the 20th century. > > I would not agree on the proposed use of her novels in the toilet > because in my opinion no writer deserves that (try writing a novel > yourself and see what I mean), but I don't understand the positive or > negative fascination with Rand that so many people on this list seem > to have. Can anyone explain it to me? Here in Europe most learned > people have no idea of who she was. > > -- > Eschatoon Magic > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon > aka Giulio Prisco > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 19:38:34 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand Message-ID: <965778.92799.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/9/09, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > Ah, come on ... "The Fountainhead" movie! She wrote the screenplay (as well as the novel, of course:), didn't she? > Gary Cooper all > manly man and Patricia Neal as the deep-voiced beauty who > allures him to her and who he causes to beg for more. King > Vidor, the director, also directed War and Piece (Tolstoy) > with Hepburn and Fonda.? Not so *hot* as The Fountain, > but nonetheless it's an American classic. It's been a while, but I recall feeling that Gary Cooper did a very poor Howard Roark. I believe he completely messed up the trial speech. I feel Cooper is (and was) overrated, but I think this was not the kind of character he could do justice to. Of course, these are just my personal impressions and I also read the novel before seeing the movie. I wonder how I would've reacted if I saw the movie first. Regards, Dan From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 9 19:41:13 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:41:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20906090651y6222939csc66b9c8da93cd8ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090609143546.0234ee60@satx.rr.com> At 12:20 PM 6/9/2009 -0700, Jeff wrote: >I just want recognition as the guy who thought of it first. Bad luck, you're probably not, unless you thought of it prior to the mid-1960s. You might be the first who wrote the idea down and posted it on the web. (I thought I was the first person to suggest neurosuspension of just the brain and part of the spinal column, in a letter published in a magazine back in 1971 [I think, don't have my records with me], but apparently a cryonicist came up with it a few years earlier--and then perished, unsuspended, in a sailing accident.) Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 9 19:42:50 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:42:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <965778.92799.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <965778.92799.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090609144144.023ad460@satx.rr.com> At 12:38 PM 6/9/2009 -0700, Dan wrote: >I recall feeling that Gary Cooper did a very poor Howard Roark. I >believe he completely messed up the trial speech. I feel Cooper is >(and was) overrated, but I think this was not the kind of character >he could do justice to. And he was about 80 years too old for the role, and physically absolutely wrong, and and From pjmanney at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 20:11:52 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:11:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <29666bf30906091311l774fcbacq1a7d3bba2a141b66@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > I apologize for the Rand comment. ?It was a gratuitous slam, > impulsively thrown in, unhelpful, and disjoint from my point. ?She > annoys me. Sorry. Jeff, you usually have such a good sense of humor! If you're going to go after Rand, then at least do it like Stephen Colbert: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/221335/march-11-2009/the-word---rand-illusion PJ From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jun 9 19:58:01 2009 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:58:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand References: <965778.92799.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090609144144.023ad460@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" > > And he was about 80 years too old for the role, and physically absolutely > wrong, and and ... and he shouldn't have blown up a whole huge f@*$#)(*g building because he didn't like some of the frou-frou on it! (Talk about petty bourgeois! Sigh...) Olga From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 20:32:20 2009 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (dan_ust at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Psychology of markets explanations Message-ID: <787122.18753.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/5/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> 2009/6/5? : >> >> You probably know much of this, but it's perhaps best >> to look at the role of the interest rate.? Yes, it sets the >> cost of borrowing money.? If the interest rate is set by >> market interactions -- by suppliers and demanders of >> loanable funds -- then the rate will tend to equilibrate >> savings and loans under full reserve banking.? (Fractional >> reserve banks can inflate, but even they will approach a >> sort of equilibration.)? If the interest rate is >> artificially lowered, under full reserve banking, then this >> will have the same effect as artificially lowering prices: >> there will be a shortage of loanable funds as the demand >> will not be equilibrated with supply.? (The opposite >> happens if the rate is artificially increased.? Of course, >> the same happens if entrepreneurs make mistakes -- setting >> the rate too high or too low -- but they have an incentive >> to get it right -- specificaly to make profits and to avoid >> losses -- whereas central bankers don't experience the >> same incentive (if Bernanke gets it wrong, it's not >> his money in play) or, if they do, not as quickly (since >> Bernanke is very far removed from the actual goings on, >> there's a huge time lag between his crew's setting rates and >> what actually happens; add to this, the Fed and other >> central banks are generally reactive not proactive).) > > Then why does every country have a central bank? I don't have a rock solid explanation, but recall my mention David Glasner's essay "An Evolutionary Theory of the State Monopoly Over Money"?*? In that essay, Glasner posits that states tend to interfere in and gain monopolies over money to deny financial resources being used to alter or overthrow their rule.? This need not have been a conscious policy.? States that arose that were didn't try to control money might find themselves, on average, losing to those that did -- as a short run inflation could pay to keep a regime in power until a crisis or war was over.? This appears to backed by the historical record.? The pattern of inflations prior to the widespread use of paper monies and even well after and until the 20th century was usually inflationary boom during war followed by a recession after. The problem for earlier states was raising money for war via taxes often resulted in a revolt of the taxed classes.? Even after states developed the means to efficiently tax populations, taxes remained unpopular as the taxed class easily linked a given policy with a tax increase.? If taxes rose to pay for a war, all else being equal, that war was that much less popular among the taxed class -- and the demand to end the war or limit it in other ways was much stronger.? Borrowing, likewise, set limits.? Lenders would often loan at high interest and demand collateral -- and even set rates or deny loans according to whether that thought a given state would succeed. Inflation represented, then as now, an alternative to taxation and borrowing.? The usual way inflations were carried out before the widespread use of paper monies was by "inflating" coins -- clipping and sweating coins to make more coins from the same total amount of money metals, debasing coins by alloying them with cheaper metals, and the like AND either tricking or forcing people to accept these at par with other monies** -- and forcing people to use the lower value new coins at par with the older full value ones.? (In essence, all of this is a form of legalized counterfeiting.) > If they just muck > things up you would think that over time a country that > tries out an > economic system without a central bank would prosper, and > its > neighbours would either take note and copy it or else fall > further and further behind. I believe that's because inflations take time to cause problems and avoid some of the problems of other means of raising money and resources -- taxation, borrowing, and direct confiscation.? Why would a state give up this source of funding?? (One might ask why other members of society tolerate this at all.? After all, with states nonexistent or extremely limited, wouldn't everyone else be better off?? I believe so, but this is not clear to everyone involved and I also believe in modern democracies the ruled expect to become the rulers.? This perhaps doesn't explain everything.? After all, some people are ideologically commited to statism or other forms of coercion -- aside from personal benefit.? Still others -- probably most people in any society -- just go along with whatever order is present and only want, at most, minor reforms.? Under market anarchism (again, the only logical, sane, and moral system:), these folks would, while not being hardcore market anarchists, would just go along with it regardless of the benefits.) Actually, too, during competitions between states, it's often the case that both competitors inflate, but the more inflationary regime loses.? I don't want to simplify this history, but there's good evidence that while, during the US "Civil" War, both the Union and the Confederacy inflated, the Confederacy inflated a whole lot more.? The short-run benefits of inflation -- real goods and services were bought by the state involved (i.e., the Union and the Confederacy were both able to pay for stuff they wanted to fight the war) -- made this palatable, but eventually the long run effects caught up with both sides, but one side lost because its level of inflation was much higher (of course, it lost for host of other reasons; again, don't want to oversimplify this to be merely inflation deciding the outcomes of wars).? (See _Tariffs, Blockades, and Inflation_ by Mark Thornton and Robert Ekelund for more on how bad economic policies influenced the outcome of that war.) (The South also did a lot more confiscation and placed all sorts of demands and restrictions on blockade runners. Outright confiscation, of course, usually results in lower production and people hiding production. I've read that Union armies found a lot of food in the Southern fields because farmers didn't want to harvest it and have it confiscated at the market by Confederate authorities. With regard to blockade runners, Thornton and Ekelund mention restrictions on what runners could bring in -- only "essentials" -- and fines and confiscations of nonessentials. This reduced the incentive to run blockades.) If inflation didn't have short run benefits -- if it were all bad -- I admit, no one would do it save by accident.? But it does have short run benefits -- and these tend to be localized to big players in credit markets, such as the state (often the biggest borrower and the biggest player in an economy) and large financial institutions. > The US did not have a central bank in the > 19th > century, and experienced multiple boom/bust cycles, more > than in the 20th century. Actually, the US had a sort of central bank at certain times during the 19th century -- the Bank of US and the 2nd Bank of US -- and also had interventions of the sort that led to credit expansion in money and banking.? (Without these interventions, for the most part, it's likely an credit expansion would have been limited -- as banks that expanded credit beyond their reserves would eventually go under.)? The various large scale panics and crises -- most of which were short-lived -- can mostly be traced to either the operations of these banks or these interventions.? There was a relatively free period -- the "free banking" era -- from about 1837 to 1860. >> Given time lags in a large money economy -- like the >> US's or the world's -- artificially lowering interest rates >> under a fractional reserve system creates new money.? The >> new money enters the system via the loanable funds markets >> -- typically benefiting the biggest debtors first.? (In any >> modern economy, the biggest debtors tend to be the state and >> large financial institutions.)? The loans they take are >> then spent -- or, in the case of fractional reserve banks, >> re-loaned out (the banks get a loan from the Fed (this money >> simply didn't exist before) and since they only need to keep >> a fraction in reserves, so this creates more new money. >> Were the process instantaneous, there would be an immediate >> rise in prices across the board -- as the value of the money >> unit instantly dropped.* >> >> This is not the case, however, as new money (whether >> as new credit or not) takes time and is path dependent. >> Those who first get new monies (e.g., new loans) can early >> on buy up resources for their projects.? This drives up the >> prices in the markets they first enter.? (Supply and demand >> in action.)? Even if some entrepreneurs anticipate this -- >> e.g., if I guess that Big Bank just got a billion in new >> funds and generally invests that in, say, bird feeders, I >> might, before Big Bank even makes an investment, invest in >> factors used to make bird feeders.? But unless we assume >> perfect entrepreneuers -- i.e., people able to perfectly >> forecast all of this*** -- some of this new money is going >> to flow into a market before people can adjust.? Some real >> factors will change hands and the later price adjustments >> will only come afterward.? Beforehand, this means, just >> about everyone was acting as if there was no new money. >> >> This process continues to ripple through the economy. >> The actual path is takes is not predictable beforehand -- >> save for generalities like the first people who get the new >> money or new credit will have an advantage and later players >> will not (because they will be in an environment where some >> prices have already adjusted, more or less, upward).? As it >> proceeds, though, the effect is as if the earlier holder of >> the new money had real savings.? This is how savings and >> loanable funds or investments get disequilibrated.? (Or, to >> be more precise, since no real world market is ever in >> equilibrium, they become more equilibrated than normal.) >> >> Does this make sense? > > Yes, it makes sense, except when it doesn't work that way. > Japan in > the 1990's lowered interest rates to near zero, printed > money, and > went for big time government deficit spending. This might > have been > expected to caused inflation, maybe even hyperinflation, > and a > collapse in the value of the yen. Instead, Japan had > continuing deflation and the yen remained strong. Money supply has increased in Japan, but prices have, on the whole, fallen.***? Why is that?? The falling prices can't be the result of the increased money supply -- because increasing the supply of money while holding all else constant would result in higher prices (i.e., there would be more money (after increasing the supply) than the things traded for money, so one would expect prices to rise). In this case, it could be either some increase on the supply side of goods and services offsetting the growth in money supply. (This doesn't really neutralize inflation. It merely masks it. An analogy might prove helpful. If I take from your supply of canned beans, then your supply of such will fall. Eventually, you'll notice the pile getting smaller and wonder what's happening. However, imagine I steal a few cans a day, but BillK adds in twice as many cans as I steal. Let's say you don't see him adding in those extra cans, but you do notice me taking some cans each day. You might, wrongfully, conclude, my taking the cans is making your total supply of canned beans.) Or it could be the demand to hold money has grown. In this case, the demand for goods and service actually must fall: people prefer to spend less even though more money's being adding into the money supply. And this probably does play a role in the Japanese economy and in any economy when an inflationary boom finally crashes: though inflation might continue, people desire to hold more cash, so prices don't rise (or don't rise as much). Or it could be a combination of the two. > But perhaps the recession would > have been even worse in the absence of these policies, How so? They've had now year upon year of declines. There has been some debate about V, U, and L style recessions. A V is a fast decline followed by a fast recovery. This seems to be what happened with the 1921 recession. In that example, the Harding Administration did almost nothing save for shave the government. (Of course, one could argue that this was a postwar recession and that it was purely a quick readjustment to peacetime. Even so, there was an inflationary boom during the war.) > and perhaps a > tighter monetary policy might have prevented the Japanese > asset price > bubble from inflating to the extent that it did. In which case, what? A "tighter monetary policy" would've been what? If not deflationary, at least disinflationary or less inflationary. With less money being pumped in, all else being the same, I think there would've been either a smaller bubble (and maybe a weaker and shorter recession, though I believe the strength and duration of recessions depends also on how monetary and other government authorities react to them and not just on the raw amount of inflation). >> Also, this is not an irrational belief model.? It's >> people acting on the local information they have -- >> particular prices, particular interest rates, and other data >> -- without anticipating inflation.? Now, of course, people >> do try to anticipate inflation in real markets -- hence >> things like inflation premia on loans or COLA in labor >> contracts -- but such anticipation is never perfect and path >> dependencies don't allow a robust prediction of relative >> price changes.? (Relative changes are critical here. >? Again, if all price rose in lockstep or instantly, then > little would change (but see ** below) -- as a 10% return on > investments would remain 10% and a person's salary would > rise in step with the prices of good and services she buys. >? This would be, IIRC, just like Hume's angel -- the one > who, in an effort to aid humanity, doubles everyone's cash > supply.)? But as soon as people do start to anticipate > inflation more, their real behavior will change too: >>?they, in general, will become more present-centered > as they will expect savings to not be worth as much (e.g., > if I save $1000 today, it might only be worth, say, $900 > next year, so why not spend it now?? This is why in really > inflation, people start buying up anything at all in hopes > of getting something for money they expect to fall ever more > in value) and more reckless in their investing.? And this > is, in fact, what we do empirically see, no? > > In general it is what we see, but it also depends on the > population. Yes, it would vary, though the point is the incentives are set in one direction.? Cultural norms and such might incline people not to take advantage of this, but why have perverse incentives in the first place?? It's almost as if we passed a law in our countries that allowed anyone to shot people wearing striped shirts without fear of retribution.? Sure, few people would, given cultural norms, go out looking to shoot people wearing striped shirts, by a few would and why set up that kind of rule in the first place? > The aforementioned Japanese seem constitutionally less > inclined to > borrow money for consumer spending than Americans are, no > matter how cheap and easy it is to get a loan. Perhaps, but then this fits in with a rise in the demand for money. And, in fact, Americans often do that too during recessions: they often slow down their spending and hold larger cash balances. This is, in my mind, a reasonable reaction to a financial downturn. You don't know if you'll have a job, so you spend less. You might even cut back on investments because the market looks shakey and you're not sure if XYZ stock or your mutual fund will ever recover. (People and firms might overshoot, cutting back too much, but there's no iron law of economics that says they always overshoot or that a monetary authority or government official -- all of whom have incentives to downplay downturns (no pun intended) -- will do any better. In fact, my guess is they'll do worse. Witness, e.g., the current crisis and their reaction to it, including President Obama's reaction to recent economic data -- the data showing that the stimulus is not working.) Regards, Dan *? In _Money and the Nation State: The Financial Revolution, Government, and the World Monetary System_, edited by Kevin Dowd and Richard H. Timberlake, Jr. **? Obviously, a coin-clipping ruler would probably not want his subjects or others he was dealing with to know the coins had been clipped, so this would be trickery -- rather than outright forcing people to accept these coins at face value.? Typically, with coin clipping and sweating (shaking coins en masse so that some of the base metal is "sweated" off), new coins were minted with the clippings or sweatings.? The coins used, obviously, had lower metal content.? Naturaly, after a while, all of these methods could be detected and the coins would trade at a lower value.? The usual hope, though, was that by the time this happen, the ruler would have already paid for whatever he needed -- troops, ships, supplies, bribes, etc. -- and the problem would be over. ***? We are perhaps using different definitions, too, of inflation and deflation.? For Austrian economists, inflation and deflation are, respectively, increases or decreases in the money supply.? For mainstream economists, they are, respectively, rises and falls in the price level.? Austrians would say this confuses the symptom with the cause.? Also, with regard to inflation (and deflation), the focus of Austrians is NOT on the overall price level, but relative price changes.? Recall Hume's Angel Gabriel -- well meaning and trying to help humanity by doubling everyone's supply of money overngiht without changing the supply of real goods and services.???This type of instant increase would, assuming everyone figured it out, result in an instant double in prices -- no boom, no bust, no change save for the minor costs of changing price tags and holding more cash to pay for higher prices. From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Jun 9 20:44:13 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:44:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090609144144.023ad460@satx.rr.com> References: <965778.92799.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090609144144.023ad460@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090609164413.t48frzw80k0o4g8s@webmail.natasha.cc> You just don't have any romantic inclinationns for Cooper. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/features/?id=2197&p=.htm He was just 48, and by my standards that is pretty darn young. :-) What is funny is to think about the look of sensuality then http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106991730/fountainhead-gary-cooper-dvd-cover-art.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tower.com/fountainhead-gary-cooper-dvd/wapi/106991730&usg=__iHEC-fKsCPRr7td0W6vEvf_xYA8=&h=240&w=167&sz=26&hl=en&start=18&um=1&tbnid=yBVS6ZN0S7RDPM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=77&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgary%2Bcooper%2BAND%2BThe%2BFountainhead%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26um%3D1 and today's testosterine of Wolverine http://www.theinsider.com/news/1356828_How_Does_Hugh_Get_That_Wolverine_Body Quoting Damien Broderick : > At 12:38 PM 6/9/2009 -0700, Dan wrote: > >> I recall feeling that Gary Cooper did a very poor Howard Roark. I >> believe he completely messed up the trial speech. I feel Cooper is >> (and was) overrated, but I think this was not the kind of >> character he could do justice to. > > And he was about 80 years too old for the role, and physically > absolutely wrong, and and > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Jun 9 20:51:00 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:51:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <580930c20906090638s2e5cbd6dx698a2e4e8ee2ed97@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> <580930c20906080405k60ad6f77g531c87196054e17d@mail.gmail.com> <4A2D6E69.8050006@libero.it> <580930c20906090638s2e5cbd6dx698a2e4e8ee2ed97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2ECB34.3050300@libero.it> Il 09/06/2009 15.38, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > 2009/6/8 painlord2k at libero.it > > > Persians consider themselves superior to Arabs and having Iraq on > the border with a democracy (how much imperfect it could be) where > they have a theocracy must be a huge PITA for them. > Let us say that both Saddam's and the current collaborationists' regime > kept in place by the arms of foreign forces, hardly appear that much > more "democratic", even from a western unbiased POV, than the Iranian > electoral system, so I sincerely doubt that the reason of their alleged > superiority complex has to do with an "envy" on that subject... Well, in Iraq you can publish a paper and criticize, heavily, the government and the government will not close the journal nor will jail the publisher and the journalists. In Iran the jail is the better part of what would happen. The same, during Saddam, would have caused the journalists to be deprived of their fingernails or of their fingers, in a good day. In a bad they they would be shredded with the papers. The shoe thrower would have never, ever, think to do the same with Mubarak or Saddam or Armadinejad because they would have him jailed forever or swiftly killed, and probably his family too would had many problems. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.59/2165 - Release Date: 06/09/09 05:53:00 From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 9 20:56:49 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:56:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <20090609164413.t48frzw80k0o4g8s@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <965778.92799.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090609144144.023ad460@satx.rr.com> <20090609164413.t48frzw80k0o4g8s@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090609155128.0222ed38@satx.rr.com> At 04:44 PM 6/9/2009 -0400, Natasha wrote: >You just don't have any romantic inclinationns for Cooper. Well, that's true. > He was just 48 Looking every day of it. And Roark was a by-his-bootstraps student at the start, and I have the feeling he never gets much beyond, say, 15 or 20 years younger than Cooper in the flick. Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jun 9 21:00:40 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:00:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] future fizzle In-Reply-To: <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20905300554m49e586a6t787431e9fe4c4824@mail.gmail.com> <165180D70CFF4D888E815C20660EA3DB@spike> <62c14240906040627p3b261a70i5b48a8e0384660ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why do you need humans in the mix to explore and exploit extraterrestrial resources in the medium to long term at all? Do you really mane to reduce men and women to a few stereotypical roles though? - samantha On Jun 4, 2009, at 6:27 AM, Mike Dougherty wrote: > On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 4:07 PM, spike wrote: >> need not send that many, for it requires only two human landers, >> both nubile >> females with lots of frozen embryos. They and their offspring are >> there to >> stay. That's the right way to do a Mars colony. Takes a long >> time, but it >> is still the right way. > > Do you ever see a need for men? Once science supersedes the > requirement for old-fashioned reproduction, is there much use for the > male of our species? Machines do the heavy lifting and the > intelligence to build & guide the machines is not gender-dependent. > Once you've selected your two nubile females, do you send any male > embryos with them? Or is Mars destined to be populated solely by > women? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jun 9 21:03:58 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:03:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Eschatoon Magic wrote: > I am frequently surprised by how often the name of Rand appears on the > list. I tried often reading some of her novels, but always gave up > after a few pages because I found them too boring. My impression is > that she was a very minor writer, with some interesting ideas like > most writers, but certainly not one of the major writers of thinkers > of the 20th century. You have this impression after only reading a few pages eh? Very impressive. Not. You also would need to read her non-fiction for a decent evaluation. - samantha From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 9 21:05:00 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:05:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] who is Howard Roark? In-Reply-To: <20090609164413.t48frzw80k0o4g8s@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <965778.92799.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090609144144.023ad460@satx.rr.com> <20090609164413.t48frzw80k0o4g8s@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090609155916.02320490@satx.rr.com> My notion: a young David Caruso. (He has to be orange haired and with the right coloring for that, and he has to be tough, silent but sort of sensitive, more masculine than goodlooking.) Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jun 9 21:08:46 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:08:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13 In-Reply-To: <200906091131.34400.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <866914.4405.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200906091131.34400.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <32CDB98B-2EF0-4DCD-8F7D-0D2419460353@mac.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > On Monday 08 June 2009 3:05:51 pm Dan wrote: >> Cute, but my guess is most monotheist members of these religions >> are not >> textual literalists. Even the small minority who are still have to >> do >> exegesis and interpretation. I was just trying, by quoting an >> obvious >> passage ordering genocide, to show that we can't just look at the >> sacred >> texts and draw implications on how so called believers will act. > > My guess is that most of the vocal right-wing political christians > are well > aware of this passage and would love to be able to kill > nonbelievers. It is > just that they are hampered by secular laws. Actually, most of them are not in the consistent or creatures of that much integrity. That is how they manage to believe this witches brew to start with. > > But when you realize that these non-believers include atheists, > muslims, gays, > transgendered, liberals, minorities, abortionists, and other > traditional > enemies of the religious right, you will see that the killings > already happen > almost regularly. > I don't think they do. Please point out actual murder stats by category tied to religious/political views of the assailant. - samantha From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 21:23:13 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:23:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906091423h49d4d80fld467e3e05f75cce4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Eschatoon Magic wrote: > I am frequently surprised by how often the name of Rand appears on the > list. I tried often reading some of her novels, but always gave up > after a few pages because I found them too boring. I am one of the indeed very few Europeans who went through her works, which are almost unknown this side of the Atlantic. Can't say that I share her ideology and for a Russian she is way too American as a novelist for my taste, but the truth is that I like in general the between-world-wars sense of "everything is possible" titanic Zeitgeist, and she reflects it as much as Eisenstein's Potemkin or Lang's Metropolis... :-) In fact, Atlas Shrugged, having been written later, is way more boring than the Fountainhead. -- Stefano Vaj From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Jun 9 22:26:02 2009 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:26:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? In-Reply-To: <580930c20906090650x530a90aaw6287da77515b8d23@mail.gmail.com> References: <0E24AE9180D649D495C37BB114FDF54F@3DBOXXW4850> <580930c20906090650x530a90aaw6287da77515b8d23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Right, problem is I don't think I can handle very much as caffeine gives me the shakes, I can only drink half a cup - which I do every day. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller www.nanogirl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefano Vaj To: ExI chat list Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Dangers of coffee and black tea?? On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:54 AM, Gina Miller wrote: Since I was diagnosed with MS this last year, I of course have been reading a lot about it and there was a story on coffee being a good thing for multiple sclerosis. However there is no way I could drink the equivalent amount of coffee that these mice were exposed to in the study. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/health/caffeine+link+to+ms+protection/2308287 In fact, the study refers to caffeine, not to coffee. Have your tried to take just the latter? In my experience, an equivalent amount of caffeine is much better tolerated in pills and in relatively pure form, especially on a full stomach, than in US style coffee drunk along the day... -- Stefano Vaj ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 23:06:05 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:06:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population) In-Reply-To: <4A2ECB34.3050300@libero.it> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60906060544y73a9a79bv1d8c78092b60fe72@mail.gmail.com> <200906071209.01326.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4A2C4BF7.4010208@libero.it> <580930c20906080405k60ad6f77g531c87196054e17d@mail.gmail.com> <4A2D6E69.8050006@libero.it> <580930c20906090638s2e5cbd6dx698a2e4e8ee2ed97@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECB34.3050300@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20906091606i4a767d7h701f91947d3bf1cc@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/9 painlord2k at libero.it : > Well, in Iraq you can publish a paper and criticize, heavily, the government > and the government will not close the journal nor will jail the publisher > and the journalists. In Iran the jail is the better part of what would happen. Really? I am just back from Iran, and beliveve me, the electoral campaign is being fought much harder, and is followed with more interest by a population that votes at age 16 in the percentage of 85 per cent, than in most western countries. > The shoe thrower would have never, ever, think to do the same with Mubarak > or Saddam or Armadinejad because they would have him jailed forever or > swiftly killed, and probably his family too would had many problems. Isn't Mubarak the darling of the West in the region (as, btw, Saddam himself used to be for a long time)? -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 23:11:24 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:11:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Deuteronomy Chapter 13 In-Reply-To: <866914.4405.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <866914.4405.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906091611q51d3e3bds924a4c0ce3e8fad3@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Dan wrote: > Cute, but my guess is most monotheist members of these religions are not textual literalists. ... meaning that they are lukewarmly, weakly, lazily accepting a denomination they do not really embrace anymore. As a "relativist", I am supposed to doubt of the existence of absolute values, but the fact of being serious and consistent in what you believe is a pretty good candidate for a universal value and for what makes a human being worth of respect. -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Wed Jun 10 01:36:10 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:36:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20906090651y6222939csc66b9c8da93cd8ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Jeff Davis > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:21 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space > > 2009/6/9 Stefano Vaj : > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Jeff Davis > wrote: > >> > >> MY IDEA. ?MY IDEA. ?MY ORIGINAL IDEA. ?ORIGINATED BY MOI. ? ME, MY, MINE. > > > > How comes that being (supposedly) based in the US you did > not file for > > a patent? :-) > > You've got me there. Pure laziness. It's not the money (too much > paperwork) I just want recognition as the guy who thought of it first... Best, Jeff Davis Jeff, a patent on something like this would be useless: it is pretty clear to me that such a project would not be started in the time a patent is valid. This is the sort of project that will take decades to construct methinks. I have had fun with the idea in terms of compatibility with Keith's pop-up-and-push notion. Having a tower reach to 30km would allow us to launch with very little, if any, payload fairing. I have some interesting findings to post a little later this evening if I get a chance. spike From moulton at moulton.com Wed Jun 10 04:12:05 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:12:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1244607125.32199.281.camel@hayek> Since the question was asked about why Rand keeps being mentioned, I thought I would write up a few notes about Rand and Objectivism. I am not an Objectivist or a follower of Rand. I am not a Rand scholar such as Chris Matthew Sciabarra. So please double-check my comments. First I think it is helpful to distinguish several different things: - The person of Ayn Rand - The philosophy of Ayn Rand - The definitions of specific terms - The novels and other fiction of Ayn Rand - The non-fiction of Ayn Rand - The scholarly, academic and organizational legacy of Ayn Rand - The general opinions, comments, rants, delusions, great insights of all other persons. The reason I split these out (and this is not the only way to split them) is that too often people confuse different categories and thus get horribly confused. There are various books about the life of Rand. Some better than others. The key things to remember is that she was born in Russia in 1905 and saw first hand what the Bolsheviks did. Her family suffered although certainly not as bad as many others. She was able to get out of the USSR and get to the USA. My opinion is that what she saw in the USSR had a deep impact on her and that is why she was so strident in her advocacy of reason and her opposition to fascism and communism and collectivism in general. Objectivism is the term Rand used for her philosophy. I am not an Objectivist but I know enough about it to know that it has its good points and its weaknesses. People who really want to know more about it can find several books as well as online sources. One big problem is people criticizing Objectivism without really studying it. One of the difficulties that arises when people speak of Rand and her ideas is that Rand like many thinkers used some very specific meanings for certain terms. In English many words have a variety of meanings and nuances; often the specific meaning can be determined by context. If the meaning is not evident from the context then hopefully the author will specify the meaning. Unfortunately while Rand did specify meanings there are those who want to discuss Rand without first checking her usage. One term which causes some difficulty is "altruism"; when Rand was speaking against altruism she was speaking against the idea that concern for one's own desires and goals is evil. There is much more to her ideas about altruism but hopefully this gives a flavor of her usage and I think one can see how her thought was probably influenced by her experiences in the USSR. Rand was not saying that being helpful or having a sense of benevolence is necessarily wrong. This is too complex subject adequately cover here. Another term that is often misunderstood is Capitalism. Rand was an strong advocate of a free market and used Capitalism to refer to a market without government interference. Unfortunately for some persons the term Capitalism means mercantilism or some variant. Rand wrote several novels and shorter works. Her most well known is Atlas Shrugged. It was published in 1957 and I seem to recall seeing a comment that it has been in print in hard cover since it was published. Which is not bad for a book over 1000 pages; there is also paperback editions. I just checked the Amazon sales rank and Atlas Shrugged in #211. Atlas Shrugged was Rand's final novel. The novel was not generally received with great critical acclaim; for example the conservative magazine National Review published a harsh review of it. The popularity seemed to be from work of mouth driving sales. Rand wrote various non-fiction works dealing with her philosophy, commenting on contemporary events and advocating for her ideas. She was an atheist and was not shy about admitting it. Her non-fiction is not as widely read as her fiction however I think all of her non-fiction books are still in print. There are scholars who have been examining the work of Rand. I have not read but have heard interesting things about the collection of essays edited by Gladstein and Sciabarra titled Feminist Interpretations of Ayn Rand (Re-Reading the Canon). Sciabarra also wrote a book about Rand titled Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical. There are various organizations focused on Rand, two of the largest are The Ayn Rand Institute and The Atlas Society. The Ayn Rand Institute was established by Leonard Peikoff (designated by Rand as her heir) and The Atlas Society (formerly known as The Institute for Objectivist Studies) was established by David Kelley. My understanding is that Kelly was expelled from the Ayn Rand Institute which is why he found a rival institute. I am not well acquainted with the current status of either institute but from what little I know I think The Atlas Society has a more expansive intellectual perspective. Now we come to all of the stuff that people write in books, blogs, email lists, newsletters and the profound insights that occur over beers at a bar. This is where it gets messy. A lot of the discussion about Rand is done by persons who have not read Rand or even a scholarly study of Rand but wind up repeating things which sound vaguely plausible which they heard from someone else. Part of the reason for this is that there appear to be some (but not all) fans of Rand who do not have the best social and communication skills. However there as mentioned previously some good work done on Rand and her ideas. For person who do not want to read an entire book on Rand I would suggest the essays about Rand written by George H. Smith in his book titled Atheism, Ayn Rand, and Other Heresies. I have known George for about 20 years and while I do not agree with everything he writes I find him insightful and interesting. In his book he has three essays about Rand and Objectivism which try to give a critical analysis of Rand and her ideas as well as some of the phenomena of the Objectivist movement. Now with all of the above as background we can look why Rand keeps popping up. Leaving aside the attention Rand gets for things she never said or advocated there is something that keeps her current. One hypothesis that I have been considering is that in Atlas Shrugged particularly Rand attacks the idea that success is based on having connections with those in power. The character of Dagny Taggart is constantly battling for resources for the railroad to be purchased in an open market and not allocated by cronyism in Washington. I suspect that someone who was opposed to cronyism and favoritism and had a more sense that cronyism was not just would be drawn to Rand and her ideas. As to why some people do not like Rand. I suspect that there are some who just do not like her style of writing. Rand had very specific ideas about writing style and wrote a book about fiction writing. There are other people who might object to the issues Rand raised or the positions Rand took. One thing Rand did was be very outspoken and raise questions in a sharp and sometimes aggressive manner. Whether how a person feels about a writer's ideas is a major factor in how that person evaluates the plot, characters, story of novel would be an interesting study. During the last twenty years or so Atlas Shrugged has began to be translated into various languages so we will see if the work does well in non-English speaking countries. Atlas Shrugged does have the difficulty of being written in the 1950s and focused on trains rather than airplanes. So it has an "older" feel to it. I hope these comments have been helpful. Unfortunately these comments only touch the surface and are very incomplete but I hope they will be useful as a starting point. Fred From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 04:34:42 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:34:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I know I shouldn't do it Message-ID: <7641ddc60906092134m101fdf1dm781c6a1450bf5a5e@mail.gmail.com> Every time I post on the economy I get drawn into fruitless arguments with enemies of capitalism and I know it's best just to stay out of it, but this time I can't help it (again): http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/06/krugman-economy-is-stabilizing.html Of course, given *this* authority I can't be wrong, can I? BTW, Daniel Sullivan linked previously to Krugman's day care story (http://www.slate.com/id/1937/) and this little parable almost immediately struck me as fatuous. I mean, here is a guy widely acclaimed to be devilishly smart, professing that his life was changed by a story that even I, an almost-average joe with no formal training in economics, could dissect as irrelevant. My eyes were quickly drawn to these words: "It issued scrip--pieces of paper equivalent to one hour of baby-sitting time" (i.e. this was a fixed-price economy), and the rest became irrelevant drivel. The lesson I draw from the baby-sitting parable is that given enough zeal even the genii among us can willfully blind themselves to the obvious, i.e. untrammeled capitalism, completely unregulated free markets and polycentrism are good, while monopolies, state control and violence (so dear to so many) are bad. Here is what a real economist has to say on the issue: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/05/krugmans_baby-s.html Rafal From spike66 at att.net Wed Jun 10 05:32:35 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:32:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20906090651y6222939csc66b9c8da93cd8ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ... > > >> > > >> MY IDEA. ?MY IDEA. ?MY ORIGINAL IDEA. ?ORIGINATED BY MOI. > ME, MY, MINE...I just want recognition as the guy who thought > of it first... Best, Jeff Davis > > > ...Having a tower reach to 30km > would allow us to launch with very little, if any, payload > fairing. I have some interesting findings to post a little > later this evening if I get a chance... spike OK I had a chance to do a few BOTECs today and found some interesting stuff. I assumed a tower that must reach to an altitude of about 30km. That way, the rocket nozzles can be optimized for vacuum, since the air density is about 1.4% the altitude at the deck, so it is close enough to a vacuum there. I had in mind a cone shape, since nature has given us trillions of examples of towers in that shape, trees. I assumed the material would be steel, since it is a good structure material in terms of specific strength, abundance and cost. Steel is what a mechanical engineer would call an isotropic material, since its strength in tension, compression and shear are similar and not dependent on direction, unlike wood, which is strongly non- isotropic. If we assume an inflatable tower built of an isotropic material, we find that inflating the tower does little good unless one wraps the tower with a high tension material horizontally. Imagine a conic tower made of steel, then imagine pumping in nitrogen until the weight of the tower is supported by air pressure. Now the material at the base of the tower is not in compression in the vertical direction, but is in enormous tension in the horizontal direction. With this configuration, much of the available strength of the steel is wasted. Sooo... Oddly enough, the way to do this sort of structure would be to make the steel thinner than in the above example, then wrap it horizontally with strands of aramid fiber, held in place by a coat of epoxy. This would make the tower lighter and use far less total material than an all-steel tower. More later. spike From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 05:50:38 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:50:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Inflatable tower could climb to the edge of space In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20906090651y6222939csc66b9c8da93cd8ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60906092250k463abd00s2a0dc5a593cc761@mail.gmail.com> I would think the main advantage of a big tower would be the option of installing a linear motor launcher inside. Rafal From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 07:40:40 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:40:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] I know I shouldn't do it In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60906092134m101fdf1dm781c6a1450bf5a5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60906092134m101fdf1dm781c6a1450bf5a5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/10/09, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Every time I post on the economy I get drawn into fruitless arguments > with enemies of capitalism and I know it's best just to stay out of > it, but this time I can't help it (again): > > http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/06/krugman-economy-is-stabilizing.html > Have a look at what Krugman actually said. The press seized on the words "recession could be over by September", but really he was saying that he doesn't have a clue. Anything could happen. Quote: June 9 (Bloomberg) -- Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman said damage from the U.S. recession may persist ?for a very long time,? with no clear engine for renewed growth. ?I?m really quite scared that we could muddle along,? Krugman said in a lecture today at the London School of Economics and Political Science. ?I really do see the possibility of a global version of the Japanese ?lost decade? without the prospect of an export-led recovery. This could be unpleasant for a very long time.? ?The ?oh-my-God-the-world-is-ending?? phase of the economic downturn is over, and financial markets are ?stabilizing,? Krugman said today. Still, ?the employment situation is continuing to look bad and will probably get worse,? he said. Krugman said he has ?no idea? what will power the U.S. out of recession. The U.S. fiscal stimulus package, while not ?trivial,? isn?t large enough to fuel sustained growth. Also, with the global economy in the doldrums, the U.S. can?t rely on a revival from a surge in exports, he said. Even the end of a recession ?doesn?t mean the same thing as it did in the old days,? said Krugman, a Princeton University economist. Unemployment may remain high longer than after the end of prior economic contractions, he said. --------- It sounds a bit like he is trying to cover all bases. I'm not sure what he means by the 'end of the recession'. If unemployment, bankruptcies, etc. continue to get worse, (but more slowly), that hardly looks like the bottom of the recession to me. And even when the bottom is reached, he thinks the world could stagger on at that level for years. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 09:44:38 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:44:38 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <1244607125.32199.281.camel@hayek> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> <1244607125.32199.281.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <580930c20906100244m3d6be042u241ca5d7f2e9f2c5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 6:12 AM, Fred C. Moulton wrote: > Since the question was asked about why Rand keeps being mentioned, I > thought I would write up a few notes about Rand and Objectivism. Wow, an extensive review of the subject. In two words, Ayn Rand consistently presents a form of Nietzschean prometheism and rebellion to mediocrity and stagnation -. which she sees equally incarnated by totalitarism and mass domination in western societies - especially palatable for Americans for its individualistic, free-marketist, "atechnical" features (which also played well in the Cold War effort to make capitalism a little more exciting than balance sheets analyses and brutal exploitment of the working class). Little surprise that this has always raised more than an echo in transhumanist circles, which share by definition the same dissatisfaction with the state of things, and fight resistance to dramatically innovative ideas brought forward by creative minorities and individuals in their struggle against conformism and social norms. That the works of Rand may be naive from a literary or philosophical point of view does not detract much from the possible appeal of the general atmosphere expressed therein to a large number of people who may in fact find her radical frankness refreshing and illuminating in comparison with other more circumspect statements of the same values. -- Stefano Vaj From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 10:16:06 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:16:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: <200906091029.31159.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20906080348o36588e43l7406d0e0021dfb88@mail.gmail.com> <200906091029.31159.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670906100316n618719c0o5f54ef69cc3f8063@mail.gmail.com> Harvey wrote: Unfortunately, it now appears that the American people cannot distinguish mock patriotism from real righteousness. I am appalled at how easily the U.S. fell right into the patterns of Animal Farm and 1984. Double-speak-talk-good! Some people are more equal than others. >>> I agree. I remember living in a rural area in Arizona and most of the locals could not understand that you could support the troops (as in not turning your back on them, cursing them,etc.,) and yet disagree with the war, or at least how it was being carried out. I learned this the hard way when I made a comment in a local bank and got lots of icy stares! lol The Republicans are very good at manipulating the so-called Middle America through false patriotism and religious appeals, as we have discussed here before. And ironically, Republican economic policies tend to grind these very same people down. Stathis wrote: Humanitarian impulses are not at the forefront when your country is being invaded. If the US nuking Japan was morally justifiable,then would it also have been morally justifiable for Iraq to nuke a couple of large US cities to prevent an invasion? >>> But I feel some of the folks here (Stathis, and others I argued with earlier) have a twisted view of things themselves, due to the overwhelming impulse to make false and quite frankly very insulting comparisons. The above statement by Stathis is a perfect example of this. I can't believe he wrote such a stupid suggestion! Imperial Japan perpetrated mass murder and rape throughout Asia and the Pacific. The Rape of Nanking was probably the apex of their war crimes. It was something reminiscent of how death and torture was carried out in ancient or medieval times, due to the degree of barbarism shown. And don't forget about the many thousands of young women forced by them into lives of prostitution. The victims have still not received a satisfactory apology from Japan. The U.S. was facing the possibility of a hundred thousand casualties if we did a massive invasion of the Japanese home islands. And so nukes were used to quickly bring Japan's government to their knees. This actually saved a vast number of lives on both sides, probably over a million. And even if part of the reason for this was to show the Russians the level of our resolve to stand up to them, well, I'm glad to not be living in an irradiated wasteland because the Russkies thought they could actually attack us (or our allies) and get away with it. And as for Iraq, they needed regime change because they had a monster at the top known as Saddam Hussein. He terrorized *his own* people with mass murder and the occasional rape of women who caught his eye. Should this man and his twisted government been accorded the moral right to use nukes against U.S. cities, if he'd had them? lol Do you really think he should have? And so for you you, Stathis, to actually suggest the Stalin-like regime of Iraq had the right to nuke the U.S. since we used nukes on Japan, when Japan deserved it, is to show your moral bankruptcy and plain stupidity. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:05:04 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:05:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War In-Reply-To: <2d6187670906100316n618719c0o5f54ef69cc3f8063@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670906060400oeba11efn30ff7b62415ac5b2@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20906080348o36588e43l7406d0e0021dfb88@mail.gmail.com> <200906091029.31159.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <2d6187670906100316n618719c0o5f54ef69cc3f8063@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906100405m461580demb1d7df2514f88ee1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/10 John Grigg : > The Republicans are very good at manipulating the so-called?Middle America > through false patriotism and religious appeals, as we have discussed here > before. Yet, this is AFAIK a neocon turn, American wars after the Secession War having usually been started by Democratic administrations... > The U.S. was facing the possibility of a hundred thousand casualties if we > did a massive invasion of the Japanese home islands.? And so nukes were used > to quickly bring Japan's government to their knees. One wonders how many Japanese casualties a massive invasion of the US without making use of nukes would have costed... Do you think this would have justified the vaporisation, of say, San Francisco and San Diego? Just wondering... > And as for Iraq, they needed regime change... This is the most incredibly blunt affirmation of universal jurisdiction ever made. If Stalin ever made such a claim with respect to the US, it would have faced an indignant reaction, and *not* on the basis of the possible wrongness of his opinion, but rather on the obvious ingerence in American internal affars. > And so for you you, Stathis, to actually?suggest the?Stalin-like regime > of?Iraq had the right to nuke the U.S. since we used nukes on Japan, when > Japan deserved it, is to show your moral bankruptcy and plain stupidity. What about the bankruptcy of the common courtesy rule of discussing the merits of one's positions without drawing inferences as to his or her essential depravity? :-) -- Stefano Vaj From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Jun 10 10:51:19 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:51:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: <580930c20906100244m3d6be042u241ca5d7f2e9f2c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> <1244607125.32199.281.camel@hayek> <580930c20906100244m3d6be042u241ca5d7f2e9f2c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > My personal favorite criticism of Rand is one which is short, succinct, and hilarious: http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/03/qotd_23.html I also recall, as that bookish 14 year old, enjoying Anthem a good deal more than Atlas Shrugged. But in the Internet Age, where we have ample evidence of the incredible value that exists inside of a network, Objectivism itself seems to be on the road to obsolescence. B -- Brent Neal, Ph.D. http://brentn.freeshell.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:12:19 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:12:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] can science reinvent the economy? Message-ID: <2d6187670906100412y2d8dc417t3dd1b68361e583f7@mail.gmail.com> I'd like to know how list members weigh in on this... http://www.newscientist.com/special/can-science-reinvent-economy It seems to me the human factor is a huge matter to deal with, but one that often gets ignored, and so we need to create the field of economic psychology/sociology... John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:17:48 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:17:48 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Attacking Rand In-Reply-To: References: <106814.38684.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67DBAADF020048E581722BBDE81D850F@patrick4ezsk6z> <1fa8c3b90906091052s61bffc87l272aa6c9c34510ab@mail.gmail.com> <1244607125.32199.281.camel@hayek> <580930c20906100244m3d6be042u241ca5d7f2e9f2c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20906100417i3ae2203x8e31f253ffe122b5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Brent Neal wrote: > > My personal favorite criticism of Rand is one which is short, succinct, and hilarious: http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2009/03/qotd_23.html Why, my own is here: http://victoria.tc.ca/int-grps/books/techrev/bkatshrg.rvw. Even a rabid Randian should find it funny enough for a few laugh, in spite of its "blasphemy". Enjoy! -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:26:41 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:26:41 +0200 Subject: [ExI] LONG! Re: Attacking Rand Message-ID: <580930c20906100426u6b6e36c2j7e15fb61b8318cb7@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Why, my own is here: > http://victoria.tc.ca/int-grps/books/techrev/bkatshrg.rvw. OK, on second thought I cut-and-past it below: <