[ExI] Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population

painlord2k at libero.it painlord2k at libero.it
Sat Jun 6 23:34:42 UTC 2009

Il 06/06/2009 22.23, Fred C. Moulton ha scritto:

> One obvious problem with the above is with defining "their religion"
>  in both the Christian and Muslim cases.  In both religions there
> are numerous doctrinal differences among persons who claim to be
> followers and in both religions this has led to violence.

Then we limit the analysis to the numerous doctrinal commonalities of
all groups that say they follow a particular religion.
We take away the groups that are too small to be representative.

For example, I just found this interesting (from my pint of view) fatwa
of al-Azhar compiled by a respected scholar in the '50

> 1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab
> (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to
> follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly
> narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And,
> everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can
> transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for
> doing so.

Then we have the same institution where POTUS Obama just gave a speech
that give out these rulings:


>> This Fatawa describes how an Egyptian man turned apostate and the
>> subsequent punishment prescribed for him by the Al-Azhr Fatawa
>> council. The following translation is a rough guide: In the Name
>> of Allah the Most Beneficient the Most Merciful. Al-Azhr Council
>> of Fatawa. This question was presented by Mr. Ahmed Darwish and
>> brought forward by [name obscured] who is of German nationality. A
>> man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is Egyptian
>> married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the husband
>> would join the Christian faith and doctrine. 1) What is the
>> Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the punishments
>> prescribed for this act? 2) Are his children considered Muslim or
>> Christian?
>> The Answer: All praise is to Allah, the Lord of the Universe and
>> salutations on the leader of the righteous, our master Muhammed,
>> his family and all of his companions. Thereafter: This man has
>> committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he
>> does not then he must be killed according to Shariah. As far as
>> his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are
>> considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then
>> if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam
>> and they do not repent they must be killed and Allah knows best.
>> Seal of Al-Azhr Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr. Abdullah
>> al-Mishadd (عبد الله المشد‎)

Now, I have, in past, looked for al-Azhar or another
respected Higher Learning Institution ruling for freedom of religion.
Never found one.
Did al-Azhar ever retracted this ruling?
It was written in the 1978.

> Another issue to consider is what the person would be following if
> they were not following a particular religion.  A careful
> consideration of history will show that painting one religion as
> somehow better than another is not always valid.

Do you agree with the fatwa I cited or not?
Is it Islamic or not?
Is it accepted by all Muslims or not?

> A final point to remember is that erroneously lumping all persons of
>  a religion into an aggregation labeled as violent and immoral might
>  have the unfortunate tendency to enhance the credibility of those
> persons who really are more violent.

I never told this.
Surely many Muslims are so only in name (like many Christians and Hindus
and Buddhists) and would never kill anyone or rob anyone. But the same
could be told of Germans under Hitler rule.
Did this changed the outcome?

But, we could delve in the different school of Islam and try to debate
what of them are acceptable and what not.

>> Speaking of the authority of the punishment and its being genuine
>> and based on the authentic sources of Islam, Sheikh `Attiyah Saqr,
>> former Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:
>> "It is not right to deny the punishment of apostasy claiming that
>> it has not been reported in the Qur'an, because it has been
>> recorded in the mutawatir (Hadith which has been reported by at
>> least four of the Companions in different times and places in a
>> way that make a person sure that such Hadith is not fabricated) and
>> the non-mutawatir Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessing be
>> upon him). Hudud (Islamic punishment specified for certain crimes)
>> may, of course, be based on the non-mutawatir Sunnah."
>> Detailing the issue and showing some of the evidence for the
>> punishment of apostasy, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf
>> Al-Qaradawi, states:
>> "All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished.
>> However, they differ regarding the punishment itself. The majority
>> of them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be
>> sentenced to death.
>> Many authentic Hadiths have been reported in this regard. Ibn
>> `Abbas reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)
>> said, "Whoever changes his religion, you kill him." (Reported by
>> all the group except Muslim, and at-Tabarani also reported it with
>> a sound chain of narrators. Also recorded in Majma` Az-Zawa'id by
>> Al-Haythamiy.)
>> There is also the Hadith of Ibn Mas`ud that the Prophet (peace and
>> blessings be upon him) said, "The blood of a Muslim individual who
>> bears witness that there is no god but Allah and that I am the
>> Messenger of Allah, is not to be shed except in three cases: in
>> retaliation (in murder crimes), married adulterers (and
>> adulteresses), and the one who abandons his religion and forsakes
>> the Muslim community." (Reported by the Group)
>> The actual example of one of the greatest Companions, `Ali ibn Abi
>> Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) gives credit to this also.
>> He himself carried out the punishment on some people who had
>> deified him. He gave them three days respite to repent and go back
>> to their senses. When they proved adamant, he put them to fire.”

Try debate this.
Are these not representative on Islam?
If they are not, who is?


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