From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Thu Oct 1 03:59:24 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] go to the Standmaster Message-ID: <333589.60731.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Clock turned back on aging muscles, researchers claim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 1 04:33:20 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 00:33:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2009, at 8:03 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > s there a fundamental energy or entropy cost of moving matter > around? If > I want to send a mass M from point A to point B within time T, how > much > would that cost? Obviously there are concerns of friction in > terrestrial > environments, but I am mostly concerned here with interstellar > distances. If you're concerned with interstellar distances then it's very hard to understand why you'd ever want to move matter around, moving information is so much quicker and more economical. If you insisted you could transfer the quantum state of an object and it wouldn't use much more energy than moving information, but teleportation is difficult for large objects and seems overkill to me. Well OK I exaggerate, you might want to send Von Neumann probes, but they are so small they wouldn't use much energy unless you were in a big hurry for then to get to their destination. Even at today's speeds you could send one to every star in the galaxy in less than 50 million years, and that's nothing. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 1 05:52:26 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:52:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ....On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx. .... ...If you're concerned with interstellar distances then it's very hard to understand why you'd ever want to move matter around, moving information is so much quicker and more economical. If you insisted you could transfer the quantum state of an object and it wouldn't use much more energy than moving information, but teleportation is difficult for large objects and seems overkill to me... John K Clark I have pondered the question in terms of what would be the minimum amount of matter and information required to spread sentient presence. Sending information out from earth would pointless unless there is someone or something out there to receive the signal. So imagine the smallest possible replicating assembler with just enough information aboard to build a receiver, point it towards earth and send the message 2 3 5 7 11 13, which means: I have arrived, decelerated successfully, found metals, build receiver, replicated madly, now awaiting further orders. How much information is required to do that, and how do we estimate the mass of the simplest replicator? Once I have that info, I can estimate what it would take to accelerate the mass and decelerate it upon arrival. spike From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 1 15:47:16 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:47:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does not believe inthe Singularity In-Reply-To: <580930c20909301050y76b1c8fcs46077d83d20cd84f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com><95e12a520909300842l49229351ud1c4e4d6772d20ec@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909301050y76b1c8fcs46077d83d20cd84f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6F455F21779B4875BC76BEF22CCDB398@DFC68LF1> Stefano Vaj wrote: "I do think instead that I have a "moral" obligation, on the basis of on my value system, to advocate an effort towards as much "superlativity" as possible, the degree thereof, or my anticipations and expectations thereabout, being immaterial to such stance." Attempting to foster an acme of a very large paradigmatic swerve brings the Singularity to the "now". I can see where this fostering is a valuable link behavioral and psychological approach, and which addresses my deepest concerns about an overt and symbolic erection. Rather, the ebb and flow of accelerating advances, across the converging fields, are the perturbations which beckon an emotional response. Sefano wrote: "And I do not believe that any meaningful distinction really exists, in our extended phenotype, between our technology and ourselves, let alone in any diacronical sense." Plasticity is the ability to change our phenotype. Emphasizing this behavioral characteristic might be meaningful approach. Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 1 17:01:59 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:01:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I am a Singularitian who does not believe in the Singularity In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2B13504A-1451-4C0D-8E53-934253D479B9@bellsouth.net> On Sep 30, 2009 Giulio Prisco sent a first rate post, I agree with most of it both the letter and the spirit. > > The Singularity is a clean mathematical concept?perhaps too clean True, it will not be a Singularity in the strict mathematical sense because the rate of change will not become infinite, just far too fast for humans to deal with. Perhaps a better word would have been "Horizon", but it's too late to change now. > I suspect the change we will see in this century, dramatic and > world changing as they might appear to us, will appear as just > business than usual to the younger generations. I'm not saying when it will happen but if that younger generation is still using biology sooner or later changes will happen so fast they will be unable to cope because of the pokey sub sonic signals in their brains . > I must admit to a certain skepticism toward FAI: if super > intelligences are > really super intelligent (that is, much more intelligent than us), > they will be > easily able to circumvent any limitations we may try to impose on > them. I agree 100%, and yet [...] > Eliezer Yudkowsky and the Singularity Institute for Artificial > Intelligence propose that research be undertaken to produce friendly > artificial intelligence (FAI) in order to address the dangers. And they've actually convinced themselves it could work! It's amazing how wishful thinking can delude even the most powerful minds. > Very few transhumanists think practical, operational indefinite life > extension and mind uploading will be a reality in the next two or > three decades. Probably Kurzweil himself does not _really_ believe it. Oh I think Kurzweil really believes it and is in fact absolutely certain of it; that doesn't mean he's correct of course, although he may be. > Similarly, I don?t see a Singularity in 2045. I refuse to give a date because with the significant exception of Moore's Law history has shown that our ability to pin a date on a future technological development is pretty poor, and this is before the huge acceleration that will happen as we approach the Singularity. I will say that even if the Singularity doesn't happen for a thousand years in 999 years it will still seem like a very long way off, so whenever it happens it will come as a big surprise to most. > I think one Kurzweil is worth thousands of critics. Absolutely! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 1 21:20:47 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:20:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolution: Ardi - 4.4 Million Years ago Message-ID: <20091001172047.sp6ehpmrk048oooc@webmail.natasha.cc> http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/10/01/oldest.human.skeleton/index.html "Ardi's 125-piece skeleton includes the skull, teeth, pelvis, hands and feet bones. Scientists say the data collected from Ardi's bone fragments over the past 17 years push back the story of human evolution further than previously believed." From asa at nada.kth.se Fri Oct 2 02:13:17 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:13:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John Clark wrote: > If you're concerned with interstellar distances then it's very hard to > understand why you'd ever want to move matter around, moving > information is so much quicker and more economical. Actually, see the papers at http://www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~crose/cgi-bin/cosmic4.html They argue that in terms of bits/J moving encoded matter around is more efficient. This hinges on the basic issue of how much energy is needed for moving matter. It is interesting to consider the marginal value of more matter if you are already using every scrap of available matter for whatever your supercivilization uses matter for (black hole cooling, entropy transport, computronium, memory storage, heat death insurance). Robert Bradbury has argued that due to comm lags and subjective time the value becomes discounted to zero. Kardashev and some others seem to think the opposite, and predicts expansion. Whether matter can be moved economically influences this a lot. For example, black hole cooling is likely the best way of keeping a superciv really cool if the cost of sending entropy to a remote supermassive hole is low, but if the cost is high then radiative cooling might be best. > Well OK I exaggerate, you might want to send Von Neumann probes, but > they are so small they wouldn't use much energy unless you were in a > big hurry for then to get to their destination. Even at today's speeds > you could send one to every star in the galaxy in less than 50 million > years, and that's nothing. Freitas old probe based on the Daedalus could do this, and I think he assumed a 500 year replication time! -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 06:03:32 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:33:32 +0930 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does not believe inthe Singularity In-Reply-To: <6F455F21779B4875BC76BEF22CCDB398@DFC68LF1> References: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com> <95e12a520909300842l49229351ud1c4e4d6772d20ec@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909301050y76b1c8fcs46077d83d20cd84f@mail.gmail.com> <6F455F21779B4875BC76BEF22CCDB398@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910012303s3d293714j8c92cc526471accb@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/2 Natasha Vita-More : > Stefano Vaj wrote: > "I do think instead that I have a "moral" obligation, on the basis of on my > value system, to advocate an effort towards as much "superlativity" as > possible, the degree thereof, or my anticipations and expectations > thereabout, being immaterial to such stance." > > > Attempting to foster an acme of a very large paradigmatic swerve brings the > Singularity to the "now". I can see where this fostering is a valuable link > behavioral and psychological approach, and which addresses my deepest > concerns about an overt and symbolic erection. Rather, the ebb and flow of > accelerating advances, across the converging fields, are the perturbations > which beckon an emotional response. > > Sefano wrote: > "And I do not believe that any meaningful distinction really exists, in our > extended phenotype, between our technology and ourselves, let alone in any > diacronical sense." > > > Plasticity is the ability to change our phenotype. Emphasizing this > behavioral characteristic might be meaningful approach. > Oh dear, this is going to break my bayesian filter. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 10:10:08 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 12:10:08 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front Message-ID: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> Since the cat is out of the bag by now, I am pleased to announce "officially" a new international transhumanist Web site, established by Riccardo Campa and myself at http://www.transhumanismus.eu. The site is still at a very primordial stage, and its future development will depend to a large extent to the data and materials that the selected local orgs may care to submit. Please note that as a purely personal initiative the same does not involve any responsibility from the side of the Associazione Italiana Transumanisti, nor of course of any other association already or in the future mentioned therein. This is the statement of its mission: <> -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Oct 2 10:51:41 2009 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 06:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ExI] freefall at purrsia? In-Reply-To: <20091001172047.sp6ehpmrk048oooc@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <20091001172047.sp6ehpmrk048oooc@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <37482.12.77.169.4.1254480701.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Does anyone else read the comic http://freefall.purrsia.com/ because the author is working up to "how to deal with non-human population conflicts". - in this case, robots, at least one specially bred non-human intelligence, and an alien. It's only a comic, but I'll be interested to see where he goes with this. Regards, MB From protokol2020 at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 11:23:26 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 13:23:26 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front In-Reply-To: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Too lefty for me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 11:52:57 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 13:52:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20910020452n69a9021ei28f696ae66097a5c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/2 Tomaz Kristan > Too lefty for me. > Is it? Personally, I would rather characterise it as "upwing". I will keep that on the record, however, for the couple of Italian conspiracy busters that spend their life preparing dossiers in order to demonstrate that we would be infiltrated, and/or originated, by the extreme right... ;-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:21:42 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:21:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front In-Reply-To: <580930c20910020452n69a9021ei28f696ae66097a5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20910020452n69a9021ei28f696ae66097a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Making an EU TH site, to distiguish you from US based sites is quite lefty for me. I would not oppose to an Italian or French TH site, though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:40:34 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:40:34 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20910020452n69a9021ei28f696ae66097a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20910020640k32ad6af0xa949c02f914ccde0@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/2 Tomaz Kristan : > Making an EU TH site, to distiguish you from US based sites is quite lefty > for me. I see. But you might note that it is not at all an "EU" site, but an ".eu" site (as in "European"), since last time I checked the Russian Federation was no member of the European Union. :-) > I would not oppose to an Italian or French TH site, though. Glad to hear that... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From rob4332000 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 2 13:47:28 2009 From: rob4332000 at yahoo.com (Robert Masters) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 06:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Remote-controlled insects Message-ID: <106832.83121.qm@web58302.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17895-freeflying-cyborg-insects-steered-from-a-distance.html >From the New Scientist: It's tempting to call them lords of the flies. For the first time, researchers have controlled the movements of free-flying insects from afar, as if they were tiny remote-controlled aircraft. By connecting electrodes and radio antennas to the nervous systems of beetles, the researchers were able to make them take off, dive and turn on command. The cyborg insects were created at the University of California, Berkeley, by engineers led by Hirotaka Sato and Michel Maharbiz as part of a programme funded by the Pentagon's Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). The project's goal is to create fully remote-controlled insects able to perform tasks such as looking for survivors after a disaster, or acting as the ultimate spy.... Rob Masters __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From estropico at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 14:26:10 2009 From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:26:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90910020726i71aa3163obc2ce9eb097a8abe@mail.gmail.com> Sometimes far left and far right overlap... See the article that recently caught Charlie Stross' eye: The Political Roots of Overhumanism http://estropico.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=104:the-political-roots-of-qoverhumanismq&catid=46:varie&Itemid=85 Cheers, Fabio > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 13:52:57 +0200 > From: Stefano Vaj > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?<580930c20910020452n69a9021ei28f696ae66097a5c at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > 2009/10/2 Tomaz Kristan > >> Too lefty for me. >> > > Is it? Personally, I would rather characterise it as "upwing". > > I will keep that on the record, however, for the couple of Italian > conspiracy busters that spend their life preparing dossiers in order to > demonstrate that we would be infiltrated, and/or originated, by the extreme > right... ;-) > > -- > Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Oct 2 14:38:55 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 09:38:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does notbelieve inthe Singularity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910012303s3d293714j8c92cc526471accb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com><95e12a520909300842l49229351ud1c4e4d6772d20ec@mail.gmail.com><580930c20909301050y76b1c8fcs46077d83d20cd84f@mail.gmail.com><6F455F21779B4875BC76BEF22CCDB398@DFC68LF1> <710b78fc0910012303s3d293714j8c92cc526471accb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7303E742DA454E6D904A17B1C6EAD2BC@DFC68LF1> Haha! I did my best to give Stefano a run for his superlativity! :-) Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 1:04 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does notbelieve inthe Singularity 2009/10/2 Natasha Vita-More : > Stefano Vaj wrote: > "I do think instead that I have a "moral" obligation, on the basis of > on my value system, to advocate an effort towards as much > "superlativity" as possible, the degree thereof, or my anticipations > and expectations thereabout, being immaterial to such stance." > > > Attempting to foster an acme of a very large paradigmatic swerve > brings the Singularity to the "now". I can see where this fostering is > a valuable link behavioral and psychological approach, and which > addresses my deepest concerns about an overt and symbolic erection. > Rather, the ebb and flow of accelerating advances, across the > converging fields, are the perturbations which beckon an emotional response. > > Sefano wrote: > "And I do not believe that any meaningful distinction really exists, > in our extended phenotype, between our technology and ourselves, let > alone in any diacronical sense." > > > Plasticity is the ability to change our phenotype. Emphasizing this > behavioral characteristic might be meaningful approach. > Oh dear, this is going to break my bayesian filter. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Oct 2 14:42:53 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 09:42:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does notbelieve inthe Singularity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910012303s3d293714j8c92cc526471accb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com><95e12a520909300842l49229351ud1c4e4d6772d20ec@mail.gmail.com><580930c20909301050y76b1c8fcs46077d83d20cd84f@mail.gmail.com><6F455F21779B4875BC76BEF22CCDB398@DFC68LF1> <710b78fc0910012303s3d293714j8c92cc526471accb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02A710BBC711483AA952ED620CD9F98C@DFC68LF1> (Haha! I did my best to give Stefano a run for his superlativity! :-)) But for fun, I did translate it down yesterday for the Extrobritannia list: The Singularity's symbolic image is vertical - shooting straight up due to the momentum of accelerating convergences. I disagree because there are smaller events which build and form larger events, and so forth. This I call a swerve because it may be unlikely to be such a straight upward thrust. One of the problems with the Singularity opponents is that many Singularitarians are looking at the Singularity from a type of absolutist technological/programming point of view, and not including social issues, many of which stem from human behaviors (learned and acquired) and human psychology (not wanting to change .. but acquiescing to a moral sense of worth when adopting change if it is for well-being). This relates to an emotional response in facing change. A changing phenotype reflects a type of plasticity in that we do change more easily than we think we do or th[a]n we want to. Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 1:04 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does notbelieve inthe Singularity 2009/10/2 Natasha Vita-More : > Stefano Vaj wrote: > "I do think instead that I have a "moral" obligation, on the basis of > on my value system, to advocate an effort towards as much > "superlativity" as possible, the degree thereof, or my anticipations > and expectations thereabout, being immaterial to such stance." > > > Attempting to foster an acme of a very large paradigmatic swerve > brings the Singularity to the "now". I can see where this fostering is > a valuable link behavioral and psychological approach, and which > addresses my deepest concerns about an overt and symbolic erection. > Rather, the ebb and flow of accelerating advances, across the > converging fields, are the perturbations which beckon an emotional response. > > Sefano wrote: > "And I do not believe that any meaningful distinction really exists, > in our extended phenotype, between our technology and ourselves, let > alone in any diacronical sense." > > > Plasticity is the ability to change our phenotype. Emphasizing this > behavioral characteristic might be meaningful approach. > Oh dear, this is going to break my bayesian filter. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 15:13:33 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 17:13:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front In-Reply-To: <4eaaa0d90910020726i71aa3163obc2ce9eb097a8abe@mail.gmail.com> References: <4eaaa0d90910020726i71aa3163obc2ce9eb097a8abe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20910020813w11400037w12f60bddfa17260d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/2 estropico : > Sometimes far left and far right overlap... See the article that > recently caught Charlie Stross' eye: > > The Political Roots of Overhumanism There we are. >From "Sometimes They Come Back", by Stephen King. Meaning of course the authors of such prose, not the subject. :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 15:15:00 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 17:15:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does not believe inthe Singularity In-Reply-To: <6F455F21779B4875BC76BEF22CCDB398@DFC68LF1> References: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com> <95e12a520909300842l49229351ud1c4e4d6772d20ec@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909301050y76b1c8fcs46077d83d20cd84f@mail.gmail.com> <6F455F21779B4875BC76BEF22CCDB398@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <580930c20910020815w2a1a74d1q9e224fe6bd1b225c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/1 Natasha Vita-More : > Srefano wrote: > "And I do not believe that any meaningful distinction really exists, in our > extended phenotype, between our technology and ourselves, let alone in any > diacronical sense." > > Plasticity is the ability to change our phenotype. Emphasizing this > behavioral characteristic might be meaningful approach. Absolutely, good point. -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Oct 2 15:20:44 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:20:44 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist European Front In-Reply-To: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20910020310u59b150f8k6fa806159e7dbd92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC61A4C.8060607@libero.it> Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > Since the cat is out of the bag by now, I am pleased to announce > "officially" a new international transhumanist Web site, established by > Riccardo Campa and myself at http://www.transhumanismus.eu. Interesting. We were thinking it is the web site of the Eurasian Transhumanist Movement. Do you plan to declare war to Oceania Transhumanist Movement or you always was at war with them? :-) Mirco From asa at nada.kth.se Fri Oct 2 22:15:36 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 00:15:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <196441.43580.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <196441.43580.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Post Futurist wrote: > Is information entropy the same as signal entropy? Kind of. Signal entropy is the uncertainty (or amount of information - remember that in classical information theory 50% noise is maximally "informative"), H=-sum_i P_i log(P_i). Information entropy has the same formula (now called the Gibbs formula rather than the Shannon formula), but instead of denoting the probability of a particular message symbol P_i now means the probability of finding the system in microstate i. So if one makes the identification microstate = a particular symbol, they are the same. But when one speaks of the entropy of a stream of symbols we are talking about a series of states, while the Gibbs formula is about a single macrostate - it does not say anything about how the microstates shift around. Note that this kind of information entropy is independent of the macrostate, although usually we just care about macrostates with a well defined temperature or energy. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asa at nada.kth.se Fri Oct 2 22:19:46 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 00:19:46 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: spike wrote: > I have pondered the question in terms of what would be the minimum amount > of > matter and information required to spread sentient presence. ... > How much information is required to do that, and how do we estimate the > mass > of the simplest replicator? Great question! Freita's probe is a rather hefty upper limit guess, involving a Daedalus type fusion probe. The device would need to be able to 1) slow down from interstellar speeds, 2) find something to build of (i.e. needs some asteroid detector), 3) a system for taking regolith and turn into useful stuff (a general assembler) and 4) information to build a radio or laser antenna for Earth communication. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From lubkin at unreasonable.com Fri Oct 2 21:45:24 2009 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:45:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> I was stunned to see this story. Does anyone know anyone who knows anything? -- David. From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Oct 2 22:42:19 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:42:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <4AC681CB.7090401@satx.rr.com> On 10/2/2009 4:45 PM, David Lubkin wrote: > I was stunned to see this story. Does anyone know anyone who > knows anything? On its face, it makes no sense. It sounds like a ten year old describing a neurosurgical operation and scaring the other kids: "Then the doctor took out the brain and--get this, guys!--he kicked it around the room a few times like a football, then put it back inside." From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Oct 2 23:03:06 2009 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 19:03:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: I think it is pretty safe to say that this is sensationalism, and that someone has a chip on their shoulder. On Oct 2, 2009, at 5:45 PM, David Lubkin wrote: > I was stunned to see this story. Does anyone know anyone who > knows anything? > > > > > -- David. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From lubkin at unreasonable.com Sat Oct 3 00:23:52 2009 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:23:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <200910030018.n930INWs000849@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Bret wrote: >I think it is pretty safe to say that this is sensationalism, and that >someone has a chip on their shoulder. Well, sure, but Alcor needs to be in serious gear to deal with this effectively and professionally. The guy is going to be on Nightline. In the past -- Ted Williams' original transport, Dora Kent, Timothy Leary, etc. -- the response was "no comment; we don't talk about these things." That ain't going to fly this time. Who is this guy? Did he ever have a position of responsibility at Alcor? What transpired to make him so bitter? I'm stunned to think that someone who'd write something so ludicrous about patient care at Alcor was ever involved in a suspension. -- David. From mail at harveynewstrom.com Fri Oct 2 22:35:27 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 18:35:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] freefall at purrsia? In-Reply-To: <37482.12.77.169.4.1254480701.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <20091001172047.sp6ehpmrk048oooc@webmail.natasha.cc> <37482.12.77.169.4.1254480701.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <200910021835.28007.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Friday 02 October 2009 6:51:41 am MB wrote: > Does anyone else read the comic > > http://freefall.purrsia.com/ I love it. I love the foxy (wolfy) lady. I love the robots. But most of all, I love the mischievous alien cephalopod Sam. The comic is a perfect mix of the functional with the dysfunctional. -- Harvey Newstrom From gunzip at weirdness.com Sat Oct 3 00:45:09 2009 From: gunzip at weirdness.com (Michael Gunzip) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 19:45:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcor & Larry Johnson Message-ID: <20091003004509.5B9051CE833@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> I apologize if this list has already covered this subject, but I just heard about this, and I'm curious... There are some troubling reports about Alcor, and apparently a Alcore-expose book coming out: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/10/02/2009-10-02_book_reveals_chilling_details_of_how_cryonic_lab_thumped_remains_of_baseball_imm.html Anyone care to summarize the Extropian take on this for me? I'm guessing probably sadness mixed with determination to improve matters, but for all I know, it will be "Larry Johnson is a liar, because..." etc. -- An Excellent Credit Score is 750 See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Sat Oct 3 06:54:00 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:54:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <200910030018.n930INWs000849@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910030018.n930INWs000849@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1254552840.14143.39.camel@desktop-linux> This is "old" news in the sense that it was discussed on various email lists in the past; I think a year or two ago but I do not remember the exact date. It is "new" news because of the book and media coverage. Fred On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 20:23 -0400, David Lubkin wrote: > Bret wrote: > > >I think it is pretty safe to say that this is sensationalism, and that > >someone has a chip on their shoulder. > > Well, sure, but Alcor needs to be in serious gear to deal with this > effectively and professionally. The guy is going to be on Nightline. > > In the past -- Ted Williams' original transport, Dora Kent, Timothy > Leary, etc. -- the response was "no comment; we don't talk about > these things." That ain't going to fly this time. > > Who is this guy? Did he ever have a position of responsibility at > Alcor? What transpired to make him so bitter? > > I'm stunned to think that someone who'd write something so > ludicrous about patient care at Alcor was ever involved in a > suspension. > > > -- David. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Oct 3 07:26:13 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 02:26:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <1254552840.14143.39.camel@desktop-linux> References: <200910030018.n930INWs000849@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1254552840.14143.39.camel@desktop-linux> Message-ID: <4AC6FC95.3000201@satx.rr.com> On 10/3/2009 1:54 AM, Fred C. Moulton wrote: > This is "old" news in the sense that it was discussed on various email > lists in the past; I think a year or two ago but I do not remember the > exact date. It is "new" news because of the book and media coverage. Of course it is. I'm amazed that apparently nobody commenting has bothered to google the Alcor site, where it's the top link, pointing to the garbage being spewed in 2003: From moulton at moulton.com Sat Oct 3 07:25:20 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 00:25:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <1254552840.14143.39.camel@desktop-linux> References: <200910030018.n930INWs000849@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1254552840.14143.39.camel@desktop-linux> Message-ID: <1254554720.14143.56.camel@desktop-linux> See also: http://www.alcor.org/Library/pdfs/DefaultJudgment.pdf And just so that no one thinks I trying to white wash things here is a link to someone who comments negatively about some practices by Alcor and others. http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1254498047/Greed+and +Corruption Fred On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 23:54 -0700, Fred C. Moulton wrote: > This is "old" news in the sense that it was discussed on various email > lists in the past; I think a year or two ago but I do not remember the > exact date. It is "new" news because of the book and media coverage. > > Fred > > On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 20:23 -0400, David Lubkin wrote: > > Bret wrote: > > > > >I think it is pretty safe to say that this is sensationalism, and that > > >someone has a chip on their shoulder. > > > > Well, sure, but Alcor needs to be in serious gear to deal with this > > effectively and professionally. The guy is going to be on Nightline. > > > > In the past -- Ted Williams' original transport, Dora Kent, Timothy > > Leary, etc. -- the response was "no comment; we don't talk about > > these things." That ain't going to fly this time. > > > > Who is this guy? Did he ever have a position of responsibility at > > Alcor? What transpired to make him so bitter? > > > > I'm stunned to think that someone who'd write something so > > ludicrous about patient care at Alcor was ever involved in a > > suspension. > > > > > > -- David. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 09:52:03 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 10:52:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <4AC6FC95.3000201@satx.rr.com> References: <200910030018.n930INWs000849@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1254552840.14143.39.camel@desktop-linux> <4AC6FC95.3000201@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > Of course it is. I'm amazed that apparently nobody commenting has bothered > to google the Alcor site, where it's the top link, pointing to the garbage > being spewed in 2003: > For all cryonics businesses, trust is the biggest factor for customers. The customer (or their dependents) pay a lot of money to the company and get almost nothing in return, except 'trust'. They trust the company to process the body to the best of their ability and to maintain the frozen storage for ever. That's it. The problem is that for the company people involved, there is no outside 'Quality of Service' checkup. Once the goods are frozen then they will never be inspected within the lifetime of these employees. There could be anything in these stainless steel containers, in any condition, and none of the present employees will face any penalties for bad behavior. Trust is essential. The companies give no guarantees for the condition of the remains, as their procedures are constantly changing, 'improving' as they say. No guarantee either for developing the new science of revival and damage repair or paying for the costs of revival or support of any 'revivees'. A lot of trust is required and bad publicity could ruin the business. BillK From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Oct 3 11:59:47 2009 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 07:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ExI] freefall at purrsia? In-Reply-To: <200910021835.28007.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <20091001172047.sp6ehpmrk048oooc@webmail.natasha.cc> <37482.12.77.169.4.1254480701.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <200910021835.28007.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <38316.12.77.169.3.1254571187.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > On Friday 02 October 2009 6:51:41 am MB wrote: >> Does anyone else read the comic >> >> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ > Harvey says: > I love it. I love the foxy (wolfy) lady. I love the robots. But most of > all, I love the mischievous alien cephalopod Sam. > > The comic is a perfect mix of the functional with the dysfunctional. Yes to all that! :) It is amusing that the humans seem so utterly oblivious to the self awareness of the robots. That bit where the boss wanted to do away with the wolfy lady was rather shocking.... the very idea, what with her delightful mind being so far above his. I wonder if we Real Life humans will be aware or oblivious when our turn comes. In the comic the robots seem smarter than the people! Are our dogs and cats thinking deep thoughts about us and we simply don't see it? ;) Regards, MB, who thanks the car, verbally, upon arriving safely at the destination... From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Oct 3 17:42:47 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 13:42:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] freefall at purrsia? In-Reply-To: <38316.12.77.169.3.1254571187.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <20091001172047.sp6ehpmrk048oooc@webmail.natasha.cc> <200910021835.28007.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <38316.12.77.169.3.1254571187.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <200910031342.47950.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Saturday 03 October 2009 7:59:47 am MB wrote: > Are our dogs and cats thinking deep thoughts about us and we simply don't > see it? ;) My cat says no. -- Harvey Newstrom From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Oct 3 17:39:20 2009 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 13:39:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Friday 02 October 2009 5:45:42 pm David Lubkin wrote: > I was stunned to see this story. Does anyone know anyone who > knows anything? > > I will confirm here that Alcor did utilize my services to perform a forensics investigation on Larry Johnson's PC after he left their employ. ?I won't get into any specifics about what Alcor had me look for and what I found. ?But I will try to dispel some unfounded rumors floating around by assuring everyone that everything I found was completely boring. ?There was no evidence of the horror stories we are hearing now. ?There was no evidence of intrigue and subterfuge. ?All these stories seem to have been created after the fact. I was able to recover all his deleted emails and files. ?Mr. Johnson kept everything until the end, and then deleted everything at one time, which was trivial to recover. ?No sophisticated efforts were made to destroy files and hide files. ?I was able to recreate his complete Internet activity history and local network activity, including his access history to Alcor networked files. ? They had an anti-virus program that scanned all files and logged a summary, so I could double-check the count of files I was recreating in the history with the logged number of files on the disk each week. ?There were dozens of system logs that helped verify the timestamps and lack of any gaps in the recovered histories. ?The internal structure of the Outlook mailbox helped verify that there were no missing emails that were not recovered. ?It was one of the most straight-forward and complete forensics recoveries I had ever done. And I found nothing interesting. None of the day to day emails or reports to or from Mr. Johnson indicated ? problems with Alcor's treatment of patients. ?None of the outrageous stories that appeared afterwards were mentioned beforehand. ?There were not even hints or references to problems or concerns of any kind. ?In fact, the reports were pretty positive about how well everything was going, and how much improvement was occurring due to Mr. Johnson's leadership. I was able to read the history of Mr. Johnson's disputes with Alcor management. ?They were concerning his own contractual relationship with Alcor and his expected future advancement within Alcor. ?There were no disputes over patient care or Alcor's handing or patients. I was also to recreate the history of Mr. Johnson's search for the attorneys in the Williams case, and his attempts at making first contact with them. ?This indicates the at Mr. Johnson was not a mole into Alcor or secretly working against Alcor beforehand. ?It also seemed to indicate that he became disgruntled first, and started looking for problems later. There did seem to be a concerted effort to systematically go through all the networked disks and directories looking for files. ?But the list of files accessed did not indicate any pattern or anything important. ?If this indeed was a search for something bad, it doesn't appear that anything was found. Everything I was able to uncover showed normal operations, no problems, and just the usual political disagreements that sometimes arise between employer and employee. ?Based on the sheer amount of information and complete lack of any mention of problems or inappropriate behavior, it did not appear that any of these concerns existed before Mr. Johnson left Alcor. ?All these stories seem to have been manufactured after the fact. -- Harvey Newstrom From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 21:27:29 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 22:27:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/09, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > I will confirm here that Alcor did utilize my services to perform a forensics > investigation on Larry Johnson's PC after he left their employ. I won't get > into any specifics about what Alcor had me look for and what I found. But I > will try to dispel some unfounded rumors floating around by assuring everyone > that everything I found was completely boring. There was no evidence of the > horror stories we are hearing now. There was no evidence of intrigue and > subterfuge. All these stories seem to have been created after the fact. > > > Everything I was able to uncover showed normal operations, no problems, and > just the usual political disagreements that sometimes arise between employer > and employee. Based on the sheer amount of information and complete lack of > any mention of problems or inappropriate behavior, it did not appear that any > of these concerns existed before Mr. Johnson left Alcor. All these stories > seem to have been manufactured after the fact. > > Remarkable indeed! A worker who only used their office computer for company business. The man deserves a medal! Only half-joking. If you'd seen the stuff I commonly find on office computers......... >From what you say and the article it appears that he is a very unsophisticated computer user and not a computer addict like most normal people. He talks about taking photographs and recording conversations and discussing with other people. No computer necessary. It seems reasonable to me that if you are CEO of a company you can hardly be a whistle blower of the company you are supposedly running. Putting myself in his shoes, he seemed to be mainly interested in his own advancement within the company and not in the technical details of what was going on in the labs. When that failed to be resolved to his satisfaction he was sufficiently annoyed with Alcor to collect some stories and evidence, then leave and do an expose of the company. On the other hand he may just be a disgruntled ex-employee trying to make some money by writing a scary bestseller book grossly exaggerating stories he heard. If Alcor do sue, then all his evidence backing up the book will come out in court. BillK From max at maxmore.com Sun Oct 4 15:30:58 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:30:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] X-Prize reflections and future Message-ID: <200910041537.n94Fbnkh014538@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Alan Boyle's Cosmic Blog has a substantial entry on the X-Prize, including an interview with Diamandis: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/10/02/2088311.aspx ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From max at maxmore.com Sun Oct 4 15:27:29 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:27:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why do psychologists reject science? Message-ID: <200910041554.n94FsHUN009046@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Interesting, if nothing really new here -- except that I'd never heard of "dolphin-assisted therapy": Ignoring the Evidence Why do psychologists reject science? http://www.newsweek.com/id/216506 From max at maxmore.com Sun Oct 4 15:29:13 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:29:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Longer lives may be lasting upside to recession Message-ID: <200910041556.n94Fu23E019213@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Not long ago, we had some discussion about improving life expectancies. BillK suggested that life spans were about to drop due to the recession. This article conveys surprising evidence that the opposite may be likely. Thought? Longer lives may be lasting upside to recession Average life expectancy saw surprising bump during Great Depression http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33139622/ns/health-aging/ Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From scerir at libero.it Sun Oct 4 15:51:31 2009 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 17:51:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] limits of physics In-Reply-To: <200910041537.n94Fbnkh014538@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910041537.n94Fbnkh014538@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <21A3067488E243CE8063DEF0F89A1EBE@PCserafino> no, no, just a collection of short papers, on many topics http://fqxi.org/community/forum/category/31416 From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 16:32:13 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:32:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Playboy interviews Message-ID: <580930c20910040932x60036e83j861743f0fb5ed91a@mail.gmail.com> Riccardo and myself have been interviewed at length in our AIT capacities about the transhumanist views on cybersex by the Italian edition of *Playboy * (!). Those who can read Italian may have some fun in checking the published article here , and the full-text versions hereand here . No, no mention of shady conspiracies, sorry for the fans therof... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Oct 4 16:51:12 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:51:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com><200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> Friends, Please know that litigation is a very mean snake and all communications are potential litigation discovery which could be summoned for investigation by opposing counsel. In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery proceedings against Alcor. Because of this it might be wise to talk all discussions about Alcor's situation off list. Many thanks, Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -- From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 17:44:29 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:44:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Playboy interviews In-Reply-To: <580930c20910040932x60036e83j861743f0fb5ed91a@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20910040932x60036e83j861743f0fb5ed91a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Riccardo and myself have been interviewed at length in our AIT capacities > about the transhumanist views on cybersex by the Italian edition of Playboy > (!). > > Those who can read Italian may have some fun in checking the published > article here, and the full-text versions here and here. > Well, of course I only read Playboy for the articles. But it is a bit unfortunate if I get caught reading a foreign language Playboy magazine. ;) BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 17:51:12 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:51:12 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Playboy interviews In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20910040932x60036e83j861743f0fb5ed91a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20910041051s2935fcaey91cd062110d56104@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/4 BillK > But it is a bit unfortunate if I get caught reading a foreign language > Playboy magazine. ;) > Yes, people might think you are showing off your command of foreign languages... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Sun Oct 4 18:19:47 2009 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 14:19:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <200910041814.n94IEVRS029688@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Natasha wrote: >Please know that litigation is a very mean snake and all communications are >potential litigation discovery which could be summoned for investigation by >opposing counsel. > >In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, >if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery >proceedings against Alcor. > >Because of this it might be wise to talk all discussions about Alcor's >situation off list. An opponent need not wait for discovery. This list has public archives.... I suggest that any discussion on this list be limited to bringing to one another's attention already public material, e.g., URLs of media coverage or a press release from Alcor. -- David. From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Oct 4 18:53:34 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:53:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <200910041814.n94IEVRS029688@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com><200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com><4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> <200910041814.n94IEVRS029688@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure what you are saying David, but in litigation terms discovery is what will skin or swim Alcor and I do not want this list being used as a means for either. Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of David Lubkin Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 1:20 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Natasha wrote: >Please know that litigation is a very mean snake and all communications >are potential litigation discovery which could be summoned for >investigation by opposing counsel. > >In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in >general, if we did not make public material that could be used in >discovery proceedings against Alcor. > >Because of this it might be wise to talk all discussions about Alcor's >situation off list. An opponent need not wait for discovery. This list has public archives.... I suggest that any discussion on this list be limited to bringing to one another's attention already public material, e.g., URLs of media coverage or a press release from Alcor. -- David. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Oct 4 18:54:17 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:54:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Playboy interviews In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20910040932x60036e83j861743f0fb5ed91a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Congratulations! Did you also pose for any pics? :-) Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 12:44 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Playboy interviews On 10/4/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Riccardo and myself have been interviewed at length in our AIT > capacities about the transhumanist views on cybersex by the Italian > edition of Playboy (!). > > Those who can read Italian may have some fun in checking the published > article here, and the full-text versions here and here. > Well, of course I only read Playboy for the articles. But it is a bit unfortunate if I get caught reading a foreign language Playboy magazine. ;) BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From lubkin at unreasonable.com Sun Oct 4 19:35:21 2009 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 15:35:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> <200910041814.n94IEVRS029688@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200910041929.n94JTpX5016154@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Natasha wrote: >I'm not sure what you are saying David, but in litigation terms discovery is >what will skin or swim Alcor and I do not want this list being used as a >means for either. I thought I was clear. I agreed with you, and said moreover that since our archives are public, anyone antagonistic to Alcor can access anything we post without discovery. But I suggested that rather than bar the topic altogether, this list be used (only) to tell each other about links to *already-public* material extropians might be interested in, like video or a transcript posted by ABC after the Nightline segment airs, a newspaper op-ed, or a press release on the Alcor site. -- David. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 20:08:07 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:08:07 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Playboy interviews In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20910040932x60036e83j861743f0fb5ed91a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20910041308u521b8753p7b7ad630dcfb0e3f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/4 Natasha Vita-More > Congratulations! Did you also pose for any pics? :-) > Why, out of narcissism if not of my duties towards the transhumanist cause I would certainly have considered the idea... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 21:04:13 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 23:04:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <580930c20910041404l24e6b489jb08faa285e871816@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/4 Natasha Vita-More > In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, > if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery > proceedings against Alcor. > Even though I am just a "continental" lawyer I am inclined second this recommendation out of professional experience... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 5 01:11:40 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 20:11:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcor scandal In-Reply-To: <580930c20910041404l24e6b489jb08faa285e871816@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910022235.n92MZRf6027442@andromeda.ziaspace.com><200910031339.21197.mail@harveynewstrom.com><4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382@DFC68LF1> <580930c20910041404l24e6b489jb08faa285e871816@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you Stefano. In deference to Alcor we ought to not discuss Alcor's business on this list. Thanks, Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 4:04 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal 2009/10/4 Natasha Vita-More In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery proceedings against Alcor. Even though I am just a "continental" lawyer I am inclined second this recommendation out of professional experience... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 5 20:00:53 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:00:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] apes plan ahead Message-ID: <21A8941F5B0A4FDE9DC479EBD5B974F2@spike> Is this cool or what? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article5877764.ece The article doesn't say if Santino hurled his entire amassed arsenal. If so, it would represent not only premeditation but also anticipation, foreseeing that the targets of those projectiles would take action to prevent him from using his remaining missiles after the initial attack. I would certainly like to know more about that comment they made in there about modifying the projectiles into discs. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From riacuzzo at comcast.net Tue Oct 6 03:19:48 2009 From: riacuzzo at comcast.net (riacuzzo at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 21:19:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 73, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200910060319.n963Jsfb029101@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Time to wash butt with "no scent"! -- Sent from my Palm Pre extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org You can reach the person managing the list at extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." Today's Topics: 1. X-Prize reflections and future (Max More) 2. Why do psychologists reject science? (Max More) 3. Longer lives may be lasting upside to recession (Max More) 4. limits of physics (scerir) 5. Playboy interviews (Stefano Vaj) 6. Re: Alcor scandal (Natasha Vita-More) 7. Re: Playboy interviews (BillK) 8. Re: Playboy interviews (Stefano Vaj) 9. Re: Alcor scandal (David Lubkin) 10. Re: Alcor scandal (Natasha Vita-More) 11. Re: Playboy interviews (Natasha Vita-More) 12. Re: Alcor scandal (David Lubkin) 13. Re: Playboy interviews (Stefano Vaj) 14. Re: Alcor scandal (Stefano Vaj) 15. Re: Alcor scandal (Natasha Vita-More) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:30:58 -0500 From: Max More <max at maxmore.com> To: Extropy-Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: [ExI] X-Prize reflections and future Message-ID: <200910041537.n94Fbnkh014538 at andromeda.ziaspace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Alan Boyle's Cosmic Blog has a substantial entry on the X-Prize, including an interview with Diamandis: http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/10/02/2088311.aspx ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:27:29 -0500 From: Max More <max at maxmore.com> To: Extropy-Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: [ExI] Why do psychologists reject science? Message-ID: <200910041554.n94FsHUN009046 at andromeda.ziaspace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Interesting, if nothing really new here -- except that I'd never heard of "dolphin-assisted therapy": Ignoring the Evidence Why do psychologists reject science? http://www.newsweek.com/id/216506 ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:29:13 -0500 From: Max More <max at maxmore.com> To: Extropy-Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: [ExI] Longer lives may be lasting upside to recession Message-ID: <200910041556.n94Fu23E019213 at andromeda.ziaspace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Not long ago, we had some discussion about improving life expectancies. BillK suggested that life spans were about to drop due to the recession. This article conveys surprising evidence that the opposite may be likely. Thought? Longer lives may be lasting upside to recession Average life expectancy saw surprising bump during Great Depression http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33139622/ns/health-aging/ Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 17:51:31 +0200 From: "scerir" <scerir at libero.it> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: [ExI] limits of physics Message-ID: <21A3067488E243CE8063DEF0F89A1EBE at PCserafino> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response no, no, just a collection of short papers, on many topics http://fqxi.org/community/forum/category/31416 ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:32:13 +0200 From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>, World Transhumanist Association Discussion List <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>, cosmic-engineers at googlegroups.com Subject: [ExI] Playboy interviews Message-ID: <580930c20910040932x60036e83j861743f0fb5ed91a at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Riccardo and myself have been interviewed at length in our AIT capacities about the transhumanist views on cybersex by the Italian edition of *Playboy * (!). Those who can read Italian may have some fun in checking the published article here <http://www.transumanisti.it/3_articolo.asp?id=81>, and the full-text versions here<http://www.transumanisti.it/9_articolo.asp?id=13&nomeCat=Interviste>and here <http://www.transumanisti.it/9_articolo.asp?id=14&nomeCat=Interviste>. No, no mention of shady conspiracies, sorry for the fans therof... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20091004/62b1adcb/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:51:12 -0500 From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha at natasha.cc> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <4D70D2A34AE141A8B32A544E2643C382 at DFC68LF1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends, Please know that litigation is a very mean snake and all communications are potential litigation discovery which could be summoned for investigation by opposing counsel. In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery proceedings against Alcor. Because of this it might be wise to talk all discussions about Alcor's situation off list. Many thanks, Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -- ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:44:29 +0100 From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Playboy interviews Message-ID: <ee50357e0910041044y6298d74dn88c3790eb76ba985 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 10/4/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Riccardo and myself have been interviewed at length in our AIT capacities > about the transhumanist views on cybersex by the Italian edition of Playboy > (!). > > Those who can read Italian may have some fun in checking the published > article here, and the full-text versions here and here. > Well, of course I only read Playboy for the articles. But it is a bit unfortunate if I get caught reading a foreign language Playboy magazine. ;) BillK ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:51:12 +0200 From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Playboy interviews Message-ID: <580930c20910041051s2935fcaey91cd062110d56104 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 2009/10/4 BillK <pharos at gmail.com> > But it is a bit unfortunate if I get caught reading a foreign language > Playboy magazine. ;) > Yes, people might think you are showing off your command of foreign languages... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20091004/c816ecf1/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 14:19:47 -0400 From: David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <200910041814.n94IEVRS029688 at andromeda.ziaspace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Natasha wrote: >Please know that litigation is a very mean snake and all communications are >potential litigation discovery which could be summoned for investigation by >opposing counsel. > >In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, >if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery >proceedings against Alcor. > >Because of this it might be wise to talk all discussions about Alcor's >situation off list. An opponent need not wait for discovery. This list has public archives.... I suggest that any discussion on this list be limited to bringing to one another's attention already public material, e.g., URLs of media coverage or a press release from Alcor. -- David. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:53:34 -0500 From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha at natasha.cc> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <A7467D9C28BF44E2979992C99EDE2B34 at DFC68LF1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not sure what you are saying David, but in litigation terms discovery is what will skin or swim Alcor and I do not want this list being used as a means for either. Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of David Lubkin Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 1:20 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Natasha wrote: >Please know that litigation is a very mean snake and all communications >are potential litigation discovery which could be summoned for >investigation by opposing counsel. > >In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in >general, if we did not make public material that could be used in >discovery proceedings against Alcor. > >Because of this it might be wise to talk all discussions about Alcor's >situation off list. An opponent need not wait for discovery. This list has public archives.... I suggest that any discussion on this list be limited to bringing to one another's attention already public material, e.g., URLs of media coverage or a press release from Alcor. -- David. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:54:17 -0500 From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha at natasha.cc> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Playboy interviews Message-ID: <DC809CE5F7E54E5A87E232AD58C71F42 at DFC68LF1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Congratulations! Did you also pose for any pics? :-) Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 12:44 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Playboy interviews On 10/4/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Riccardo and myself have been interviewed at length in our AIT > capacities about the transhumanist views on cybersex by the Italian > edition of Playboy (!). > > Those who can read Italian may have some fun in checking the published > article here, and the full-text versions here and here. > Well, of course I only read Playboy for the articles. But it is a bit unfortunate if I get caught reading a foreign language Playboy magazine. ;) BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 15:35:21 -0400 From: David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <200910041929.n94JTpX5016154 at andromeda.ziaspace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Natasha wrote: >I'm not sure what you are saying David, but in litigation terms discovery is >what will skin or swim Alcor and I do not want this list being used as a >means for either. I thought I was clear. I agreed with you, and said moreover that since our archives are public, anyone antagonistic to Alcor can access anything we post without discovery. But I suggested that rather than bar the topic altogether, this list be used (only) to tell each other about links to *already-public* material extropians might be interested in, like video or a transcript posted by ABC after the Nightline segment airs, a newspaper op-ed, or a press release on the Alcor site. -- David. ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:08:07 +0200 From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Playboy interviews Message-ID: <580930c20910041308u521b8753p7b7ad630dcfb0e3f at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 2009/10/4 Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> > Congratulations! Did you also pose for any pics? :-) > Why, out of narcissism if not of my duties towards the transhumanist cause I would certainly have considered the idea... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20091004/11d9f1bb/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 23:04:13 +0200 From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <580930c20910041404l24e6b489jb08faa285e871816 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 2009/10/4 Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> > In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, > if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery > proceedings against Alcor. > Even though I am just a "continental" lawyer I am inclined second this recommendation out of professional experience... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20091004/c232eb65/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 20:11:40 -0500 From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha at natasha.cc> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal Message-ID: <AFA2654FCB2C4366AB514E57DEDFB259 at DFC68LF1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you Stefano. In deference to Alcor we ought to not discuss Alcor's business on this list. Thanks, Natasha Nlogo1.tif <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 4:04 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Alcor scandal 2009/10/4 Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> In light of this, it would be helpful to Alcor, and cryoncists in general, if we did not make public material that could be used in discovery proceedings against Alcor. Even though I am just a "continental" lawyer I am inclined second this recommendation out of professional experience... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20091004/16c52830/attachment-0001.html> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 04:05:34 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:35:34 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Longer lives may be lasting upside to recession In-Reply-To: <200910041556.n94Fu23E019213@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910041556.n94Fu23E019213@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910052105w6453b641l92441cd6bcd2625a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/5 Max More : > Not long ago, we had some discussion about improving life expectancies. > BillK suggested that life spans were about to drop due to the recession. > This article conveys surprising evidence that the opposite may be likely. > Thought? > > Longer lives may be lasting upside to recession > Average life expectancy saw surprising bump during Great Depression > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33139622/ns/health-aging/ > > Max Caloric restriction! -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 6 04:10:12 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 21:10:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] condell hits it out of the park, again! Message-ID: <5454ADD0FA204AA1A71AFF75EAE6C201@spike> When I grow up I want to be Pat Condell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STlYN5KCiWg &feature=player_embedded -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 6 04:19:25 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 21:19:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) Message-ID: <3921F134907D485B911E249A982B3190@spike> My first girlfriend had such a desperate crush on Carl Sagan, I had to compete with a guy she had never even met! The times I did the best with her was when I was impersonating Sagan. Then she would totally attack me. {8^b I am fully hetero, but this video is so wicked cool, even *I* get turned on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc &feature=player_embedded {8^D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 6 04:32:35 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 21:32:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) Message-ID: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> The Cosmos series is nearly 30 years old. It is Twenty nine years since Sagan completely blew my mind wide open and changed forever the direction of my life. Thanks Dr. Sagan! I am soooo pathetically out of date with respect to anything on TV. Hipsters, what is the closest thing in the past decade to Cosmos? Is there anything? spike _____ From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 9:19 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: sagan sings (with some help) My first girlfriend had such a desperate crush on Carl Sagan ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc &feature=player_embedded {8^D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 6 06:02:21 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 02:02:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) In-Reply-To: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> References: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> Message-ID: <17F74865-979D-46E0-BFA1-A10F62FAF8AD@bellsouth.net> For whatever it's worth in his Autobiography former child prodigy Isaac Asimov, a man not noted for his modesty, said that in his entire life he had only met 2 people that were unquestionably smarter than he was. One was Marvin Minsky, and the other was Carl Sagan. I'm not saying it's really true but that's what Asimov said. I enjoyed the video and I miss Sagan. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 06:35:58 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:35:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <196441.43580.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am sorry, Anders Sandberg, but the searching for the minimal amount of entropy increase for a body to be moved, could be also labeled as a "crack pottery" as you label this "dispersal of energy" explanation of entropy as such. I found both interesting and not necessary flawed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From artillo at comcast.net Tue Oct 6 18:08:59 2009 From: artillo at comcast.net (artillo at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 18:08:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) In-Reply-To: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> Message-ID: <202389114.2454991254852539647.JavaMail.root@sz0062a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> 13 full episodes of COSMOS are available to watch on Hulu. :) http://www.hulu.com/cosmos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 18:23:55 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 19:23:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) In-Reply-To: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> References: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> Message-ID: On 10/6/09, spike wrote: > The Cosmos series is nearly 30 years old. It is Twenty nine years since > Sagan completely blew my mind wide open and changed forever the direction > of my life. Thanks Dr. Sagan! > > I am soooo pathetically out of date with respect to anything on TV. > Hipsters, what is the closest thing in the past decade to Cosmos? Is there > anything? > > I like the stuff by Michio Kaku. Especially the 'Visions Of The Future' 3 part series. BillK From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 6 22:40:07 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 22:40:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <922309.22621.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Spike wrote: "I am soooo pathetically out of date with respect to anything on TV. Hipsters, what is the closest thing in the past decade to Cosmos? Is there anything?" It depends on what sort of "closest thing to cosmos" you're after. Over here in the UK, we've seen Michio Kaku's "Visions of the future" televised, and I find him an entertaining science communicator. If you're after looking at the future of the universe, the was a series made by Lord Rees, the Astronomer Royal which dwells on cosmology and also whether humanity will survive the twenty-first century. In terms of "shows that will make you want to launch space probes to photograph the solar system and learn about geology and the formation of the earth", I'm not sure anything has come close to Cosmos. Tom (going on vague memories of Cosmos reruns from when he was young) From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Oct 6 23:30:33 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:30:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) In-Reply-To: <922309.22621.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <922309.22621.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ACBD319.9050702@satx.rr.com> On 10/6/2009 5:40 PM, Tom Nowell wrote: > In terms of "shows that will make you want to launch space probes to photograph the solar system and learn about geology and the formation of the earth", I'm not sure anything has come close to Cosmos. < In 1989 Gregory Benford was host and scriptwriter for the television series A Galactic Odyssey, which described modern physics and astronomy from the perspective of the evolution of the galaxy. The eight-part series was produced for an international audience by Japan National Broadcasting. > He had an impossible starship, as I recall, with an ethnically/sexually mixed crew, zipping from system to system and probably out of the galaxy. It wasn't especially good, but it's something for Spike to search for... Damien Broderick From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 7 01:02:01 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 18:02:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) In-Reply-To: <4ACBD319.9050702@satx.rr.com> References: <922309.22621.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4ACBD319.9050702@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > Subject: Re: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help) > > On 10/6/2009 5:40 PM, Tom Nowell wrote: > > > ...I'm not sure anything has come close to Cosmos. > > < In 1989 Gregory Benford was host and scriptwriter for the > television series A Galactic Odyssey... > > Damien Broderick There was one called The Universe, with Neil Tyson, but I haven't seen it. Anyone? spike From jonkc at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 7 02:51:26 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 22:51:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help). In-Reply-To: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> References: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> Message-ID: <90BDA576-909F-4BFA-B46C-19F6CDF57C1B@bellsouth.net> On Oct 6, 2009, at 12:32 AM, spike wrote: > I am soooo pathetically out of date with respect to anything on TV. > Hipsters, what is the closest thing in the past decade to Cosmos? > Is there anything? I'm not much of a hipster but if you go to Youtube and type in "Richard Dawkins", you will find dozens of videos, all of them good and most of them great. And Dawkins books are even better. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Wed Oct 7 05:53:36 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:53:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sagan sings (with some help). In-Reply-To: <90BDA576-909F-4BFA-B46C-19F6CDF57C1B@bellsouth.net> References: <566EBF41C95545A8B9CC7D510243FE31@spike> <90BDA576-909F-4BFA-B46C-19F6CDF57C1B@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <1254894816.4128.166.camel@desktop-linux> On Tue, 2009-10-06 at 22:51 -0400, John Clark wrote: > I'm not much of a hipster but if you go to Youtube and type in > "Richard Dawkins", you will find dozens of videos, all of them good > and most of them great. And Dawkins books are even better. > I just got home from hearing Dawkins speak at Kepler's in Menlo Park to a large SRO crowd. He was there promoting his most recent book titled The Greatest Show on Earth The Evidence for Evolution For more info: http://richarddawkins.net/thegreatestshowonearth Fred From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 8 03:00:10 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 20:00:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] nanomedicine article in h+ Message-ID: <19221CEB95614B59AF2E3BF03EFB1338@spike> Cool! http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/nano/targeting-cancer-cells-nanoparticles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Thu Oct 8 13:28:52 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:28:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] need input for a new party platform Message-ID: <20091008132852.GY27331@leitl.org> Hi, long time no see. I'm working on the Pirate Party program, and could use some input. Some random items are at http://eugen.leitl.org/pirateprogram.txt -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 8 14:16:46 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 07:16:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] program like a pirate day Message-ID: <3D5F006329574DDAB3EB0DED32E04D19@spike> >Hi, long time no see. I'm working on the Pirate Party program, and could use some input. >Some random items are at http://eugen.leitl.org/pirateprogram.txt Arrrr! Fairly warned be ye, says I! Arrrr... spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 01:06:13 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 18:06:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] program like a pirate day In-Reply-To: <3D5F006329574DDAB3EB0DED32E04D19@spike> References: <3D5F006329574DDAB3EB0DED32E04D19@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670910081806oc9248b7r9b911496e4ffc457@mail.gmail.com> Eugen, are you aware your existance and ongoing activities grant evidence to the power and majesty of The Spaghetti God? John ; ) 2009/10/8 spike > > > > >Hi, long time no see. I'm working on the Pirate Party program, and could > use some input. > > >Some random items are at > *http://eugen.leitl.org/pirateprogram.txt* Arrrr! > Fairly warned be ye, says I! Arrrr... > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 9 09:16:37 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:16:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] program like a pirate day In-Reply-To: <2d6187670910081806oc9248b7r9b911496e4ffc457@mail.gmail.com> References: <3D5F006329574DDAB3EB0DED32E04D19@spike> <2d6187670910081806oc9248b7r9b911496e4ffc457@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091009091637.GT27331@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 06:06:13PM -0700, John Grigg wrote: > Eugen, are you aware your existance and ongoing activities grant evidence to > the power and majesty of The Spaghetti God? Heh. I wish the activities would actually lead somewhere. I'm fairly frustration-tolerant, but it's still no fun. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From asa at nada.kth.se Fri Oct 9 21:41:40 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 23:41:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Singularity Summit Message-ID: <79aea8a25d56e1377045fa80252b1d41.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Just back from the Singularity Summit, short report at http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/10/a_singular_event.html Lots of familiar faces of course, but it is even more fun to meet the newcomers. The things I viewed as take-home-messages: Brain emulation might be more urgent than I thought, I have become slightly more convinced that AGI could appear soonish (even if I still do not assign much probability to a local and sudden hard takeoff), collaborative "citizen science" might be the future for many research areas, and I need to write twitter-overview software to keep up with the tweets of this kind of audience. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 10 21:16:23 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:16:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again Message-ID: Woohoo! Is The Greatest Show on Earth Dawkin's best work to date, or what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanzure at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 15:55:49 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:55:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Vinay Gupta's Pirate Platform In-Reply-To: <57803627CD39584B9492656EB555A51E0106A266AE@b65-exmb3> References: <57803627CD39584B9492656EB555A51E0106A266AE@b65-exmb3> Message-ID: <55ad6af70910110855h698270dbg203acbb334b72f90@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Hughes, James J. Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:56 AM Subject: [wta-talk] Vinay Gupta's Pirate Platform To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2009/10/and-yet-another-pirate-manifesto/ A Pirate's Platform by Vinay Gupta an attempt at a fundamental rights based platform for the Pirate movement. 1> Our goal is freedom, particularly creative and expressive freedom, for all. 2> We are not aligned with traditional left/right politics, and are substantially not a form of Libertarian because of our emphasis on the social construction of property. 3> All rights arise from within individuals. The machinery which implements or denies rights is socially constructed in some cases. 4> The right to property arises from within individuals, but the machinery which creates property is a social construction. Throughout time new forms of property have been developed, starting with nomads settling on land and continuing through shares in limited liability corporations, copyright and patents. Not one of these forms of property was an inherent right before the form of property was created: rather they are socially constructed expressions of a fundamental right to property, in the same way that a newspaper is a socially constructed expression of the right to free speech. 5> We do not know the perfect forms of property, if such things even exist. There are substantial reasons to believe that good property laws vary depending on culture and technology, among many other factors. 6> The Libertarian ethos of self-ownership as the foundation for all property rights does not adequately address the role of the State in creating many of the forms of property in society. Although anarchocapitalism attempts to address the role of the State in creating property there is a substantial lack of clear consensus of the role of "might makes right" in the implementation of rights in an Stateless ancap society. These are examples of systems which are clearly reasoned from strongly stated axioms, but which demonstrate the potential for severe problems in practice. This is not our way because it is biased too much towards theory. 7> The Pirate ethos is not one of reasoning from fundamental axioms and damn the torpedos. Nor is it purely utilitarian, arguing for the greatest good for the greatest number. Rather, it is scientific, evolutionary, experiential and experimental. Pirate politics are learning politics. If we succeed in one nation in implementing radically sane laws around property, and the result is cultural disaster because the laws inhibit creativity rather than freeing it, we will change our minds. However, we will not abandon principles based on failed experiments, seeking always to find the correct social machinery to express our inherent individual rights. 8> In the long run, no form of property or rights is beyond our ambition. Copyright and patent are relatively young laws, in a state of flux because of new technology, and therefore are our first targets for radical sanity. However, it is not beyond imagination that Pirate policy may extend to all fundamental human rights and the environment given time. A learning approach to politics gives us time to work on what we are sure of now and develop a wider mandate in time. 9> Electoral politics is only one part of a broad-based effort to encourage dialogue and creative engagement at a cultural level, including discussing the role of law in freeing us from various forms of inconvenience, oppression and danger. Where individuals and society require no assistance from the State, no law should exist. A strong practice of individual and social self reliance can reduce the scope of State power. 10> The international export of European and American property rights norms does not constitute sustainable development, particularly in the areas of patenting lifeforms and denying access to life-saving drugs based on patents. International organizations like WIPO need coordinated international response to combat, not just from nation states, but also from individuals and society. They are our most dangerous foes and need to be engaged accordingly. 11> The privatization of knowledge by copyright and patent denies the fundamental openness of the human quest for understanding in general, and the scientific method in general. Knowledge is a fundamental commons, in the same general manner as air is, and while there may be temporary practical exceptions for social utility (like patent) the enclosure of knowledge as property is fundamentally in error. We must align with what is good for science, and for the open spread of knowledge. Education may be a natural area to make allies. 12> We are making policy for a future which likely includes technologies like gene therapies and elective genetic modifications, nanotechnology, self-replicating machines and artificial intelligence. Substantial progress in at least some of these fields, of a kind which creates a strong need for updating laws, is certain within a generation or less. Correct understanding of individual rights and the social mechanisms to implement them will require substantial technological competence and sophistication among policy makers. We can provide that understanding and competence. 13> The Green movement has failed to take effective action on the substantial issue of its day. We must learn from the failures of previous parties with a narrow focus particularly when it comes to linking effective action in our main area of interest to broader social agendas. Many are for copyright reform who are against, for example, drug reform. We must remain true to our goals above all subsidiary agendas. 14> We need to identify and respect historical figures and contemporary heros who support our cause. This is made more difficult by the role of the media, a copyright-centric enterprise, in shaping culture. Many who might support us privately, as they bittorrent their favorite British TV shows, would never personally admit that our positions make sense. I personally start the heroes list with Richard Stallman and Trent Reznor. _______________________________________________ wta-talk mailing list wta-talk at transhumanism.org http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk -- - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Oct 11 15:50:21 2009 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 08:50:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Bob Greene Column - re Ted Williams and Cryonics References: <922309.22621.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <307680484E604FE2991C35A05F2B582F@patrick4ezsk6z> When Ted Williams died a few years ago, many people (in the mainstream) heard about cryonics for the first time. The brouhaha continues to this day: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/11/greene.ted.williams/index.html From max at maxmore.com Sun Oct 11 16:20:28 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 11:20:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 7 Man-Made Substances that Laugh in the Face of Physics Message-ID: <200910111648.n9BGmcZl004106@andromeda.ziaspace.com> This was posted to the Extrobritannia list and is too good not to repost here: http://www.cracked.com/article_17476_7-man-made-substances-that-laugh-in-face-physics.html Max From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 11 17:31:59 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:31:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] daredog Message-ID: There are examples of animals doing what appears to be play in the wild, but I am interested in beasts ingaged in play that involves doing something that is scarey. Behavior of domestic dogs can be unpredictable since they have a bunch of factors that mess up the behavior they would have if they were wild: they have behaviors bred in, or they do things in order to please their owners. This YouTube is a case where a dog is doing something that he would surely consider scarey, but with no apparent encouragement from an owner. He appears to be doing an adrenaline kick just for fun. Dog owners, comments welcome on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLPW1Nr-0vo spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Oct 11 18:09:20 2009 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 11:09:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] daredog References: Message-ID: <870EAE7BC1504E9A9CAD13751C38E55D@patrick4ezsk6z> Gotta love the comments people leave, e.g.: "dogs are very intelligent, more intellegent (sic) than most humans." Sigh. ----- Original Message ----- From: spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:31 AM Subject: [ExI] daredog There are examples of animals doing what appears to be play in the wild, but I am interested in beasts ingaged in play that involves doing something that is scarey. Behavior of domestic dogs can be unpredictable since they have a bunch of factors that mess up the behavior they would have if they were wild: they have behaviors bred in, or they do things in order to please their owners. This YouTube is a case where a dog is doing something that he would surely consider scarey, but with no apparent encouragement from an owner. He appears to be doing an adrenaline kick just for fun. Dog owners, comments welcome on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLPW1Nr-0vo spike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 11 20:26:47 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:26:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 7 Man-Made Substances that Laugh in the Face of Physics In-Reply-To: <200910111648.n9BGmcZl004106@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910111648.n9BGmcZl004106@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <53821018D67D42EE8A2DD8BC0333162C@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Max More > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 9:20 AM > To: Extropy-Chat > Subject: [ExI] 7 Man-Made Substances that Laugh in the Face of Physics > > This was posted to the Extrobritannia list and is too good > not to repost here: > > http://www.cracked.com/article_17476_7-man-made-substances-tha > t-laugh-in-face-physics.html > > Max One of the coolest perks of working in the rocket science biz is that one does get to fool with a lot of wicked cool exotic materials, to find novel uses for them. One of the consequences of designing stuff that costs $10k per kg just to get it into orbit is that the actual cost of the material matters a lot less than finding ways to design weight out of stuff. That being said, I think the article gets one thing wrong about #6, aerogel. It is used in space applications, but I don't think it can be used for space suits, or at least not the conventional kind: not flexible enough. I can imagine its use in some places in the proposed hard suits, but in any other spacesuit application, it seems to me it would quickly be crushed to a whiff of dust. The aerogel I have used in the lab reminds me of styrofoam, only transparent and about a tenth the density, and perhaps a quarter the mechanical strength, and zero elaticity. It is so delicate, one can cut it with a piece of paper. In that photo with the brick sitting atop of a piece of aerogel, if one pressed down on the brick with one's hand, the aerogel would be crushed so thin, it would be difficult to find afterwards, and it would not form a sheet of flattened material, but rather a powdery residue. I worked on a project in 1995 where we used a piece of aerogel to capture dust particles and bits of techo-debris in LEO. Anything bigger than a few hundredths of a micron blasted right thru it like it wasn't there. spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 11 20:05:32 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:05:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Vinay Gupta's Pirate Platform In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70910110855h698270dbg203acbb334b72f90@mail.gmail.com> References: <57803627CD39584B9492656EB555A51E0106A266AE@b65-exmb3> <55ad6af70910110855h698270dbg203acbb334b72f90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Bryan Bishop > ... > > > http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2009/10/and-yet-another > -pirate-manifesto/ > > A Pirate's Platform > > by Vinay Gupta > > an attempt at a fundamental rights based platform for the > Pirate movement... - Bryan Bryan do allow me to propose a Pirate movement official emoticon: {P^]}? (happy eyepatch guy scratching beard with a hook.) spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 11 21:25:48 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:25:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] daredog In-Reply-To: <870EAE7BC1504E9A9CAD13751C38E55D@patrick4ezsk6z> References: <870EAE7BC1504E9A9CAD13751C38E55D@patrick4ezsk6z> Message-ID: ...On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin Subject: Re: [ExI] daredog Gotta love the comments people leave, e.g.: "dogs are very intelligent, more intellegent (sic) than most humans." Sigh. Ja, people do get silly with that notion. If they really wanted to push for it, they could argue that it depends on how one measures intelligence. In the usual IQ test, clearly we humans have every advantage, but consider the task of chasing a frisbee, leaping off the ground from a run and catching the thing in one's mouth. Many dogs can do that, but I have yet to see a human do it. Clearly it takes significant mental function on the part of the dog. I have seen seagulls catch french fries out of the air, seen a seagull carry a pebble to a height, drop a pebble then swoop down and catch it again, which is a hell of a trick when you think about it. Here's one that blew my mind, a family of orcas work together to create a wave to knock someone's lunch off of an ice floe: (Sensitive types move along please. There is something to see here.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyfOp_keW0A This demonstrates several cool things that beasts do: several orcas worked together to get a meal for one, and they somehow communicated the idea to each other. Here's the same video with some explanatory chatter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3xmqbNsRSk&NR=1 spike From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Sun Oct 11 21:28:26 2009 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:28:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] daredog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:31 PM, spike wrote: > Dog owners, comments welcome on this: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLPW1Nr-0vo Looks like typical dog behavior to me. -- Harvey Newstrom From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 01:46:51 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:46:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d6187670910121846v34b0301as9754c2ad91784809@mail.gmail.com> Spike, Spike, Spike... You and your adolescent infatuations with Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins and Charles Darwin! hee I bet you have posters of them in your room (your poor wife) and moon over their pics in the scientist edition of Tiger Beat! John : ) 2009/10/10 spike > Woohoo! > > Is The Greatest Show on Earth Dawkin's best work to date, or what? > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Oct 13 03:08:38 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:08:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Terminatrix Message-ID: <4AD3EF36.10401@satx.rr.com> This explains much. (Assuming it gets through.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: terminatrix.gif Type: image/gif Size: 124193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 13 04:43:42 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:43:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Terminatrix In-Reply-To: <4AD3EF36.10401@satx.rr.com> References: <4AD3EF36.10401@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <28609B4DBBD946E895D75EDB2A203D1C@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Subject: [ExI] The Terminatrix > > This explains much. (Assuming it gets through.) Damien, I don't know how much of our funniest ever American TV show you were able to catch in your Australia years. Your cartoon reminded me of when Homer and Marge were trying to figure out what to do about the troublesome Bart, while the infant Maggie was already showing signs of even greater intelligence than the brilliant Lisa. Homer suggested a plan: since their children keep getting smarter, they have another one. This baby would be so intelligent as to invent a time machine, which Homer and Marge would use to go back in time and not have any children. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 13 04:34:12 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:34:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again In-Reply-To: <2d6187670910121846v34b0301as9754c2ad91784809@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670910121846v34b0301as9754c2ad91784809@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ...On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] dawkins again Spike^3... ...You and your adolescent infatuations with Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins and Charles Darwin! hee... Johnny^3 me lad, I prefer to think of them as post-adolsecent infatuations, or perhaps very late youth infatuations, or at worst early middle aged infatuations. ...I bet you have posters of them in your room... I do confess to having a poster of a scientist in my home, but it is none of the three you mention. My poster is of Richard Feynman. In that poster he is wearing traditional garb from Tanu Tuva, and is holding an open lock in one hand and a Feynman diagram in the other. I bought it at the CalTech bookstore over twenty years ago, after I went down there to meet the man who wrote "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman." He was already sick by that time and wasn't in that day, so I had to settle for Murray Gell Mann, who had the office next to Feynman's. ... (your poor wife) ... Shelly went down there with me. Gell Mann was far more interested in schmoozing with her than talking physics with me. I understand he is a bit of a Romeo, and you know that Shelly is a most attractive woman. We found it most amusing. ...and moon over their pics in the scientist edition of Tiger Beat!... There's a scientist edition of Tiger Beat? Cool! Where do I get a copy? If there isn't, there should be. spike {8-] From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 13 07:08:29 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 03:08:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6772F801-2123-409A-A841-C4B293797896@bellsouth.net> On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:16 PM, spike wrote: > Woohoo! Is The Greatest Show on Earth Dawkin's best work to date, > or what? It's great, I bought it as a audio book so I can "read" it while driving to work, lately I don't even care if I'm caught in a traffic jam. By the way I just finished reading (this time not in the car) the graphic novel "Logicomix". I may not be the best critic of this genre because I've read very few graphic novels, but I thought this one was great. I would never have guessed that you could turn Bertrand Russell, Kurt Goedel and Ludwid Wittgenstein into comic book super heros, but Logicomix does it and does it with style. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Wed Oct 14 16:04:02 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:04:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Monty Python -- new 6-hour IFC documentary Message-ID: <200910141604.n9EG4HxC020264@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Because I KNOW there are many Monty Python fans here: IFC is showing a new 6-hour documentary ("Monty Python: Almost the Truth (the Lawyer's Cut)," starting this Sunday and running through next Friday October 23, at 9pm EDT. Apparently, ther are also showing all three seasons of the TV show and a couple of the movies. An article about the documentary: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33307910/ns/entertainment-television/ Max From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 21:08:03 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:08:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Monty Python -- new 6-hour IFC documentary In-Reply-To: <200910141604.n9EG4HxC020264@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910141604.n9EG4HxC020264@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670910141408r51d9e2fbsd8cbef5657a95909@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:04 AM, Max More wrote: > Because I KNOW there are many Monty Python fans here: IFC is showing a new > 6-hour documentary ("Monty Python: Almost the Truth (the Lawyer's Cut) Great news! Thanks, Max! My basic cable package includes IFC. John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob4332000 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 14 19:30:08 2009 From: rob4332000 at yahoo.com (Robert Masters) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The science (?) behind swine-flu vaccinations Message-ID: <32723.56067.qm@web58303.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1 This article in The Atlantic raises some remarkably troubling questions about the rationale behind the current crash program to vaccinate people for swine flu.? The authors highlight several issues, but the most interesting to me is a basic problem in statistical methodology:? the weakness of so-called "cohort studies."? Why do medical authorities believe flu vaccines are effective at all?? The basic reason, according to the authors, is that people who get vaccinated have far lower death rates (about 50 percent lower) than those who don't.? But--as any elementary statistics student learns--correlation is not causation.? There may be "confounding factors":? e.g., people who choose to be vaccinated may be more health-conscious in general, and more likely to take care of themselves (by exercising, not smoking, etc.) than those who don't.? So the difference in death rates may have nothing to do with the vaccinations. The researchers who do the cohort comparisons try to factor out obvious confounding variables--but, as one vaccine skeptic remarks, "you can adjust for the confounders you know about, not for the ones you don't."? The only way around this problem is to do the kind of study medical scientists refer to as the "gold standard":? a double-blind placebo-controlled experiment.? You give the vaccine to one group of subjects and an inert substance to another group (randomly, with neither the subjects nor those administering the substances knowing which is which), and then observe whether there are any differences in rates of infection (or in death rates) between the two groups. Amazingly, however, most medical authorities oppose double-blind testing of flu vaccine, on the grounds that it would be "unethical"!? They argue that? giving ANYONE a placebo (a sham vaccine) would be wrong, because that might? increase the person's risk of getting the flu.? I find this completely incomprehensible.? In the first place, all medical experiments are supposed to be done with INFORMED CONSENT; the subject is supposed to know that he or she is taking a risk (and presumably is willing to do so for the sake of helping to advance medical knowledge).? This is the understanding with experimental cancer treatments and such, and it happens every day.? So what is the ethical problem? Furthermore, suppose a controlled experiment showed that the vaccine was in fact ineffective.? That would mean the billions of dollars being poured into the immunization program are going down a rathole.? Shouldn't that possibility figure into the ethical equation? In addition to the problem with unknown confounding variables, there are some big questions about the actual data on death rates.? "In 2004, for example, vaccine production fell behind, causing a 40 percent drop in immunization rates. Yet mortality did not rise....? In 1989, only 15 percent of people over age 65 in the U.S. and Canada were vaccinated against flu. Today, more than 65 percent are immunized. Yet death rates among the elderly during flu season have increased rather than decreased...."? And so on.? The apparently illogical resistance to putting the flu vaccine to a real scientific test, the authors state, is nothing new.? "The annals of medicine are littered with treatments and tests that became medical doctrine on the slimmest of evidence, and were then declared sacrosanct and beyond scientific investigation. In the 1980s and ?90s, for example, cancer specialists were convinced that high-dose chemotherapy followed by a bone-marrow transplant was the best hope for women with advanced breast cancer, and many refused to enroll their patients in randomized clinical trials that were designed to test transplants against the standard?and far less toxic?therapy. The trials, they said, were unethical, because they knew transplants worked. When the studies were concluded, in 1999 and 2000, it turned out that bone-marrow transplants were killing patients." It will be most interesting to see how (and whether) the medical authorities respond to this eye-opening article. Rob Masters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asa at nada.kth.se Wed Oct 14 23:44:04 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:44:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Global quantum suicide paradise engineering Message-ID: I just couldn't resist blogging about the recent rediscovery of the retrocausal Higgs papers: http://tinyurl.com/ykxxyc6 "If God hates the Higgs boson, we can build paradise on Earth" The nice thing is that I can reuse my old LHC calculations http://tinyurl.com/3rgjrl *and* I get a chance to use the term "global quantum suicide paradise engineering" on my blogg. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 04:38:33 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:08:33 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Who's using Google Wave? Message-ID: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> Who's using Google Wave? The worst thing about it is that there's no one to talk to - plz hlp k thx bai! -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From eschatoon at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 09:27:45 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:27:45 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Who's using Google Wave? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90910150227o590aa7b8l6d82f23151ee3d3c@mail.gmail.com> I am, and a few other transhumanists too. I will add you to a couple of waves later today. On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Emlyn wrote: > Who's using Google Wave? The worst thing about it is that there's no > one to talk to - plz hlp k thx bai! > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related > http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting > http://emlynoregan.com - main site > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 15 14:55:13 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:55:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who's using Google Wave? In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90910150227o590aa7b8l6d82f23151ee3d3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90910150227o590aa7b8l6d82f23151ee3d3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3DFB75C628E44C8CB13F72B0DA15B9E7@DFC68LF1> I'll play. Just tell me what to do. Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco (2nd email) Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:28 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Who's using Google Wave? I am, and a few other transhumanists too. I will add you to a couple of waves later today. On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Emlyn wrote: > Who's using Google Wave? The worst thing about it is that there's no > one to talk to - plz hlp k thx bai! > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related > http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main > site _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 15:50:40 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:50:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Who's using Google Wave? In-Reply-To: <3DFB75C628E44C8CB13F72B0DA15B9E7@DFC68LF1> References: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90910150227o590aa7b8l6d82f23151ee3d3c@mail.gmail.com> <3DFB75C628E44C8CB13F72B0DA15B9E7@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: On 10/15/09, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > I'll play. Just tell me what to do. > Google Wave is in limited preview status at present with only about 100,000 users and plenty of bugs being stomped on. Read about it here: You can register for an invite, like when Gmail started up, but I would give it time to settle down a bit before leaping aboard. (Unless you enjoy testing out new software, that is). ;) BillK From eschatoon at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 16:57:01 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:57:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Who's using Google Wave? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90910150957w40c6967age4e44c1259acae79@mail.gmail.com> Emlyn, I see you have already joined the Cosmist Wave. We are experimenting with Wave as a platform for group discussion and collaboration, and with Google Groups as a means to manage wave groups (the standard solution Google is developing). I have created a test group wavecosm: a Wave discussion group for cosmists, extropians, transhumanists, singularitians etc.: If you wish to join, please: Request to join the Google Group wavecosm http://groups.google.com/group/wavecosm/ When you have joined this group, Wave will let you in all the waves participated by the group (subject to experimental verification). Please join only if you already have a Wave account - the standard mailing list will be used only for announcements and all discussions will take place on wave. I have already given all my wave invitations, but I hope to have more soon, and I am sure others still have some. On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Emlyn wrote: > Who's using Google Wave? The worst thing about it is that there's no > one to talk to - plz hlp k thx bai! > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related > http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting > http://emlynoregan.com - main site > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From eschatoon at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 17:22:30 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:22:30 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Who's using Google Wave? In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90910150957w40c6967age4e44c1259acae79@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0910142138y72a7220fka6237f6d1f615f9@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90910150957w40c6967age4e44c1259acae79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90910151022q4fbe85f9je448799e03bcd185@mail.gmail.com> Thanks to the 4 who joined already. Now, on Wave: Search wavecosm. You will find some waves, and since you are in this group you should be able to view/edit them. Now, say something! On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Giulio Prisco (2nd email) wrote: > Emlyn, I see you have already joined the Cosmist Wave. We are > experimenting with Wave as a platform for group discussion and > collaboration, and with Google Groups as a means to manage wave groups > (the standard solution Google is developing). I have created a test > group wavecosm: a Wave discussion group for cosmists, extropians, > transhumanists, singularitians etc.: If you wish to join, please: > > Request to join the Google Group wavecosm > http://groups.google.com/group/wavecosm/ > > When you have joined this group, Wave will let you in all the waves > participated by the group (subject to experimental verification). > > Please join only if you already have a Wave account - the standard > mailing list will be used only for announcements and all discussions > will take place on wave. I have already given all my wave invitations, > but I hope to have more soon, and I am sure others still have some. > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Emlyn wrote: >> Who's using Google Wave? The worst thing about it is that there's no >> one to talk to - plz hlp k thx bai! >> >> -- >> Emlyn >> >> http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related >> http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting >> http://emlynoregan.com - main site >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > > -- > Giulio Prisco > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco > aka Eschatoon Magic > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 16 02:55:07 2009 From: alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com (Alan Brooks) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] embryonic neurons Message-ID: <184490.62603.qm@web46113.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Embryonic neurons are unusual in that they are able to extend neurites quite efficiently in extracellular environments that do not support the migration of other motile cell types. Recent work in the laboratory has shown that embryonic sensory neurons are able to compensate for inhibitory or weakly growth-promoting substrata by adjusting their expression of receptors for growth-promoting matrix molecules (receptors of the integrin class). Cell-surface integrin levels appear to be modulated either through a post-translational mechanism of targeted endocytosis or through activation of a receptor-based second messenger system. Regulated integrin expression in response to the extracellular environment may be required for neurons (and possibly for other invasive cell types) to migrate into diverse tissues. The regenerative failure of adult CNS neurons may be in part due to changes in integrin expression associated with the maturation of neurons to an adult phenotype. The regeneration of adult neurons in culture can be greatly improved by transgenic integrin expression. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 08:50:38 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:50:38 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Global quantum suicide paradise engineering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For preventing us to create a Higgs boson, the Universe might use an asteroid or accidental nuclear war. The Paradise machine could become something less pleasant. *and* I get a chance to use the term "global quantum suicide paradise > engineering" on my blogg. > > > -- > Anders Sandberg, > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asa at nada.kth.se Fri Oct 16 10:51:23 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:51:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] embryonic neurons In-Reply-To: <184490.62603.qm@web46113.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <184490.62603.qm@web46113.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AD8502B.9020404@nada.kth.se> Alan Brooks wrote: > > Regulated integrin expression in response to the extracellular > environment may be required for neurons (and possibly for other > invasive cell types) to migrate into diverse tissues. > > The regenerative failure of adult CNS neurons may be in part due to > changes in integrin expression associated with the maturation of > neurons to an adult phenotype. The regeneration of adult neurons in > culture can be greatly improved by transgenic integrin expression. > > I wonder if one could make transgenic neurons where integrin is controlled by optical signals. That would at the very least be useful for lab research, and might later be useful for patterning neural growth into deliberate structures. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asa at nada.kth.se Fri Oct 16 10:47:37 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:47:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Global quantum suicide paradise engineering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD84F49.8040909@nada.kth.se> Tomaz Kristan wrote: > For preventing us to create a Higgs boson, the Universe might use an > asteroid or accidental nuclear war. The Paradise machine could become > something less pleasant. > Of course. This kind of fate-manipulation, whether due to retrocausation or anthropic selection, requires devices that are absurdly (i.e. unbuildably) reliable. And they must also indeed prevent existential risks. At most I suspect that we could do an experiment to demonstrate the existence of the effect, but I doubt it can be practically harnessed. Still, it gives a hint of just how *strange* the technology of a posthuman civilization or superintelligence might be. Apparently random things that benefit it might just happen. There is no overt plan, just amazing serendipity. What is actually going on behind the scenes may be so conceptually different from the effects we see that it does indeed look like magic - and not just in the Clarke's law sense. A paleolithic hunter-gatherer would likely say something similar about modern finance. It is also interesting to consider what happens when two groups using this kind of tech are in conflict. If my device prevents me from losing and yours also does, that means that we will always make the same choice in rock-paper-scissors. And we will for some reason not be able to play games where one side must lose. Similarly, if we have signals from the future we can play the non-iterated prisoner's dilemma perfectly cooperatively in the one shot case. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From dharris at livelib.com Sat Oct 17 09:05:53 2009 From: dharris at livelib.com (David C. Harris) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:05:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] embryonic neurons In-Reply-To: <184490.62603.qm@web46113.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <184490.62603.qm@web46113.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AD988F1.5040801@livelib.com> Could you give a citation of a URL or refereed paper on this topic? Alan Brooks wrote: > Embryonic neurons are unusual in that they are able to extend neurites > quite efficiently in extracellular environments that do not support > the migration of other motile cell types. > > Recent work in the laboratory has shown that embryonic sensory neurons > are able to compensate for inhibitory or weakly growth-promoting > substrata by adjusting their expression of receptors for > growth-promoting matrix molecules (receptors of the integrin class). > Cell-surface integrin levels appear to be modulated either through a > post-translational mechanism of targeted endocytosis or through > activation of a receptor-based second messenger system. Regulated > integrin expression in response to the extracellular environment may > be required for neurons (and possibly for other invasive cell types) > to migrate into diverse tissues. > > The regenerative failure of adult CNS neurons may be in part due to > changes in integrin expression associated with the maturation of > neurons to an adult phenotype. The regeneration of adult neurons in > culture can be greatly improved by transgenic integrin expression. > > From eschatoon at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 13:33:41 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:33:41 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Chinese scientists create metamaterial black hole Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90910170633q3336e1eake9efb29a4ae01f72@mail.gmail.com> http://www.physorg.com/news174893601.html -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Oct 18 02:08:12 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:08:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:16 PM, spike wrote: > Woohoo! Is The Greatest Show on Earth Dawkin's best work to date, or what? Haven't seen it, but what does it add to what you already knew? Damien Broderick -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Attached Message Part URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 02:52:30 2009 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:52:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again In-Reply-To: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: I do not know how I ended up in this conversation and will drop it as soon as possible. Any email list which censors its postings is not "free" and I value 'freedom" above all other perspectives. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 18 14:41:02 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:41:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again In-Reply-To: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <476EFBFF-FAC9-4FA0-B19E-678BB1E4C135@bellsouth.net> On Oct 17, 2009, at 10:08 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:16 PM, spike wrote: > >> Woohoo! Is The Greatest Show on Earth Dawkin's best work to date, >> or what? > Haven't seen it, but what does it add to what you already knew? > Dawkins other books dealt with the consequences and mechanics of evolution and just assumed that the reader believed the theory was true. This book talks about the actual physical evidence that evolution is happening. It's a very good book and I highly recommend it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 18 04:02:35 2009 From: alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com (Alan Brooks) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] embryonic neurons Message-ID: <778952.97483.qm@web46111.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Couldn't relocate the paper, but these two are links from the same site: http://www.cvmbs.colostate. edu/bms/tobet.htm http://www.engr.colostate.edu/ ~kpopat/tissueengr.html >Could you give a citation of a URL or refereed paper on this topic? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From estropico at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 16:55:46 2009 From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:55:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Machine super intelligence Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90910180955o4e37dc5fgdb24735df6e9fb4f@mail.gmail.com> Dr Shane Legg leads a state-of-the-art review of models of how super intelligent machines might work. 2pm-4pm, Saturday 31st October Room 416, 4th floor (via main lift), Birkbeck College, Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX About the talk: What ever happened to the ambitious aims of artificial intelligence, specifically, its original goal of creating an "intelligent machine"? Are we any closer to this than we were 20 or 30 years ago? Indeed, have we made any progress on figuring out what intelligence is, let alone knowing how to build one? After all, if we had a clearer idea of where we want to get to, we might be able to come up with some better ideas on how to get there! Clearly, artificial intelligence could do with a better theoretical foundation. This talk will outline work on creating such a foundation: *) What is intelligence? *) How can we formalise machine intelligence? *) Solomonoff Induction: a universal prediction system. *) AIXI: Hutter's universal artificial intelligence. *) MC-AIXI: a computable approximation of AIXI. *) Can the brain tell us anything useful for building an AI? *) Is building a super intelligent machine a good idea? About the speaker: Dr Shane Legg is a post doctoral research associate at the Gatsby Computational Neuroscience Unit, University College London. He received a PhD in 2008 from the Department of Informatics, University of Lugano, Switzerland. His PhD supervisor was Prof. Marcus Hutter, the originator of the AIXI model of optimal machine intelligence. Upon the completion of his PhD he won the $10,000 Canadian Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence Prize and was also awarded a post doctoral research grant by the Swiss National Science Foundation. Shane is a native of New Zealand. After training in mathematics he began a career as a software engineer, mostly for American companies specialising in artificial intelligence. In 2003 he returned to academia to complete a PhD. His research has been published in top academic journals (e.g. IEEE TEC), and featured in mainstream publications (e.g. New Scientist). All of Shane's publications, including his doctoral thesis "Machine super intelligence", are available on his website: vetta.org. www.extrobritannia.blogspot.com http://transhumanist.org.uk/ From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 20:41:30 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:41:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] embryonic neurons In-Reply-To: <778952.97483.qm@web46111.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <778952.97483.qm@web46111.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 10/18/09, Alan Brooks wrote: > Couldn't relocate the paper, but these two are links from the same site: > http://www.cvmbs.colostate. edu/bms/tobet.htm > http://www.engr.colostate.edu/ ~kpopat/tissueengr.html > > >From what is said I don't think a paper has been published on this research yet. The passage you quoted is here: PS. Tip on searching - One way to find a particular article is to pick a key phrase and search for that phrase within double quotes "-----------------". That's how I found this reference. BillK From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Oct 18 20:24:49 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:24:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Multiple Selves and Sasha Chislenko Message-ID: <215EECCE2A8F40C28F67FDE4C2250A14@DFC68LF1> Does anyone have a reference to papers or publications where Sasha wrote about multiple selves in virtual environments, such as his idea for enhanced reality? Many thanks, Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 21:19:42 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:19:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Multiple Selves and Sasha Chislenko In-Reply-To: <215EECCE2A8F40C28F67FDE4C2250A14@DFC68LF1> References: <215EECCE2A8F40C28F67FDE4C2250A14@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: On 10/18/09, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Does anyone have a reference to papers or publications where Sasha wrote > about multiple selves in virtual environments, such as his idea for enhanced reality? > > A search for --- Chislenko enhanced reality (no quotes) seems to provide what you are looking for. BillK From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Oct 18 22:02:18 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:02:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Multiple Selves and Sasha Chislenko In-Reply-To: References: <215EECCE2A8F40C28F67FDE4C2250A14@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <09B9EE2A57814459846C31324FC79B66@DFC68LF1> Yes, I already googled. I am looking for precise use of the phrase "multiple selves" or "multiple identities". Thanks, Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 4:20 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Multiple Selves and Sasha Chislenko On 10/18/09, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Does anyone have a reference to papers or publications where Sasha > wrote about multiple selves in virtual environments, such as his idea for enhanced reality? > > A search for --- Chislenko enhanced reality (no quotes) seems to provide what you are looking for. BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Oct 18 22:14:47 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:14:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Multiple Selves and Sasha Chislenko In-Reply-To: <09B9EE2A57814459846C31324FC79B66@DFC68LF1> References: <215EECCE2A8F40C28F67FDE4C2250A14@DFC68LF1> <09B9EE2A57814459846C31324FC79B66@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <4ADB9357.9090508@satx.rr.com> On 10/18/2009 5:02 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Yes, I already googled. I am looking for precise use of the phrase "multiple > selves" or "multiple identities". Google took me to http://wik.ed.uiuc.edu/index.php/Identities_and_Abilities_Group_1_SU_09 which cited Chislenko, A. (1999, July 18). Technology as extension of human functional architecture. Retrieved June 6, 2009, from Lucifer Media: Sasha Pages Web site: But I'm sure you know all this. From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Oct 18 22:40:48 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:40:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Multiple Selves and Sasha Chislenko In-Reply-To: <4ADB9357.9090508@satx.rr.com> References: <215EECCE2A8F40C28F67FDE4C2250A14@DFC68LF1> <09B9EE2A57814459846C31324FC79B66@DFC68LF1> <4ADB9357.9090508@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: Excellent. Thanks for the link Damien! Less than 6 degress of separation ... Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 5:15 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Multiple Selves and Sasha Chislenko On 10/18/2009 5:02 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Yes, I already googled. I am looking for precise use of the phrase > "multiple selves" or "multiple identities". Google took me to http://wik.ed.uiuc.edu/index.php/Identities_and_Abilities_Group_1_SU_09 which cited Chislenko, A. (1999, July 18). Technology as extension of human functional architecture. Retrieved June 6, 2009, from Lucifer Media: Sasha Pages Web site: But I'm sure you know all this. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 19 00:05:42 2009 From: alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com (Alan Brooks) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] embryonic neurons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64178.21632.qm@web46111.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Right; it is a faculty blurb. What I'd like to do now is find papers on mitochondria and heart attacks-- probably no shortage of papers. ? ? >From what is said I don't think a paper has been published on this research yet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 04:25:47 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:25:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New paper Beamed Energy and the Economics of Space Based Solar Power Message-ID: This is very late draft full of graphs taken off the physics spread sheet models if anyone wants a copy to review. It lays out in detail how to get SBSP down to 2 cents per kWh or less and how to get the project started to self sustaining stage a modest number of tens of billions. If you have anything to say about it, let me know soon. It will be presented sometime after Nov 1 at the Beamed Energy conference. Keith From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 19 04:12:50 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:12:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what do the old timers do better than we do now? In-Reply-To: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <8017E16391B74D3DAFE000F93DCFC582@spike> Here's the idea: we moderns can do pretty much anything the old timers did, only a lot better. They build pyramids, we can do that, even if not really the same way. They did some pretty clever stuff, but we can do better, if for no other reason that we can figure out in hindsight how they did it, and in nearly all cases apply our many modern technologies. So what, if anything, could our predecessors do better than we do now? I will let you interpret that question broadly, so our predecessors could be your father's generation, or people living a century ago, or thousands of years ago. I thought of one: observing animal behavior, since the old timers often lived on or near farms and had contact with beasts all the time. A century ago, most people could bridle and saddle a horse, mount up and ride without hurting themselves. Now, perhaps not. But one could argue that if the task is getting somewhere, then we are better, because we drive there. Fifty years ago, most people were better at fixing cars than we are today, but they couldn't fix modern cars either, so it depends on how you look at it. I am listening to Dawkins reading Darwin in my car, and once again I am struck by how good Darwin was at observing ants, which he writes about at length in chapter 7 of Origin of Species. He really spent some time watching the little beasts. Darwin did a better job than any modern I know of at the task of observing and interpreting ants. spike From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 19 04:31:48 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:31:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ants again In-Reply-To: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: I commented a few weeks ago on some ant stuff I was going to post here, so those who have no interest in ants, do take the opportunity to bug out forthwith. I mean that in a polite, entomological way of course. {8^] Now to my recent experiments, to be described Flies react to a hand coming in their direction, but ants do not. They seem to have no concern if one appears to be getting ready to swat them. They go about their business with no concern that it might be their very last second of earthly existence. But I was wondering if their eyes may just be extremely near-sighted, so they don't see anything that is more than a few cm away. Last season I was trying to get ants to pass the double straw test: get a two-way migration going, then insert a short section where the ants must all pass thru two straws, then see if I could get them to set up one-way straws. I never did get them to do that, so I set up a simpler, two hole experiment, set up a paper strip with one hole about half a cm in diameter thru which all ants must pass, then put up a divider which converts the passage to two adjacent holes, each about 2 mm in diameter. The 2mm holes are large enough for a single ant to go through easily, but two ants cannot pass each other. So if they figure out to make the holes one-way passages, then the traffic flows smoothly, otherwise, they ball up and no one gets thru. They block each others' progress. I may have not found the right combination, but I have not been able to get the ants to make one-way passages. So now I ask why, and I came up with an interesting notion, which I have tried to confirm or disprove, which I call the kielbasa theory. Imagine yourself at a festival in a foreign land. You are hungry and thirsty but you know nothing of the language. People are milling around everywhere, when you see someone carrying a steaming plate of kielbasa and sourkraut, with no bites taken from it. You wander in the direction that person came from, looking for another kielbasa carrier. Perhaps you find the source and get your lunch. Now you look around for someone returning with an empty plate and an empty beer mug, and you reason that the direction from which she came might have picnic tables. The kielbasa theory is that perhaps ants form their migration paths by seeing what the other ants coming the other way are carrying. In my case, the ants appear to climb the tree, milk the aphids, then take the nectar down into the ground. Perhaps the empty-mandibled ants look for nectar carrying ants, then fall into a line heading in the direction from whence the nectar carrier came. Perhaps the nectar carriers look for empty-mandibled ants and head off in that direction looking for the subterrainian nest. This is what I call the kielbasa theory. I bought a small portable air compressor with a one-gallon tank and a trigger nozzle, which I call my ant-poofer. The experiemnt is to find or create a two-way migration across a flat surface like the sidewalk, then take a shoebox bottom with the ends cut out, set the box upside down across the ant migration and quickly poof away all ants in the segment under the box. So now we have a two-way migration, within a couple seconds a gap appears about 12 cm wide. Now I watch the ants on either side to see how long it takes to re-establish the path. This experiment suggests a number of questions, such as: Which side of the path repairs itself first? How do the ants reason out where they are supposed to go? Do they do it visually? Or by some kind of chemical signals? Do I have far too much time on my hands? spike From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 19 04:31:42 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:31:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dawkins again In-Reply-To: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <81E1D34E6F504AED90E1A472411A36A4@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Damien Broderick > Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 7:08 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] dawkins again > > On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:16 PM, spike wrote: > > > Woohoo! Is The Greatest Show on Earth Dawkin's best work to > date, or what? > Haven't seen it, but what does it add to what you already knew? > > Damien Broderick There was some excellent bug stuff in there. I have a notion I wanted to post under a different heading, such as ants again. spike From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Oct 19 10:13:40 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:13:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ants again In-Reply-To: References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4ADC3BD4.5010006@nada.kth.se> Fascinating experiments, Spike! I think the pheromone trails lack direction information, although I would guess there is a trail pheromone indicating which way towards food and a nest pheromone indicating which way towards the nest (I have not seen anything about a nest pheromone in the literature, maybe I am wrong about it). So if you could paint two separate trails with them you would get one-way trails. The kielbasa model looks like it is close to real ant simulations I have read. I wonder what I can do with the ladybugs who are planning to winter in my bathroom window. Just this morning I met three (one was crawling up my leg). Unlike ants they are not social; their mindset is more like a trundling predatory tank looking for aphids. Which of course suggests all sorts of fun interactions with an ant-trail experiment... (we need somebody else to start training aphids) -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 19 13:02:15 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 06:02:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ants again In-Reply-To: <4ADC3BD4.5010006@nada.kth.se> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> <4ADC3BD4.5010006@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > Subject: Re: [ExI] ants again > > Fascinating experiments, Spike! > > I think the pheromone trails lack direction information, > although I would guess there is a trail pheromone indicating > which way towards food and a nest pheromone indicating which > way towards the nest (I have not seen anything about a nest > pheromone in the literature, maybe I am wrong about it)... This is part of what I am hoping to find out: if the ants supplement their pheromone signals with visuals. There is a difference in activity levels as a function of light level, so that suggests some connection. Of course ants can navigate in zero light conditions as you found on your last visit to California.* > if you could paint two separate trails with them you would > get one-way trails. The kielbasa model looks like it is close > to real ant simulations I have read... I need to study the literature to see if anyone has under any circumstances managed to get one-way trails. If so, one could perhaps collect a tiny sample of the go-home pheromone, identify its chemical nature, synthesize it in the lab, then spray it in a room, at which time all the ants present would go home. But if the keilbasa model is true, they will not go. If it is a non-directional food-or-home single pheromone, it might make the problem worse, or could explain an odd phenom that you also discovered at my own home.* > I wonder what I can do with the ladybugs who are planning to > winter in my bathroom window. Just this morning I met three > (one was crawling up my leg)... Anders I think you are just irresistable to bugs. > ... (we need > somebody else to start training aphids) > > -- > Anders Sandberg, > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University *By way of explanation, my home has ants which are impossible to completely irradicate, but oddly enough they seldom if ever appear where one might expect them, the kitchen or dining room. The place where Anders suffered their presence is in the least used room in the house, the downstairs guest bedroom of all odd places, for there is never food there, seldom anything remotely edible, unless we have a visiting Swedish scientist-philosopher or other esteemed guest, which is two to three times a year. Anders was rudely awakened in the night by some ambitious formicidae hoping to dismember the hapless lad and carry him back to her nest to devour at some later time. This has led eventually to an interesting observation. Apparently ants require that the eggs be kept dry, so human habitationst are an ideal choice. I am told that if one has ants in the walls, it protects against destructive termites. So they are actually a benefit, if they do not attempt to devour one's guests, one's family or oneself. spike From rob4332000 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 19 12:30:07 2009 From: rob4332000 at yahoo.com (Robert Masters) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 05:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Large Hadron Rap Message-ID: <91941.74898.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Oct 19 15:12:37 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:12:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] ants again In-Reply-To: References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> <4ADC3BD4.5010006@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: <8a78ef519eaa6409dd6a01348ce6cf84.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> spike wrote: > This is part of what I am hoping to find out: if the ants supplement their > pheromone signals with visuals. There is a difference in activity levels > as a function of light level, so that suggests some connection. It could be just temperature: being poikilothermic, insects tend to speed up a lot when there is more heat. It is very visible here in the UK. My nemesis, Notiophilus biguttatus, is absurdly fast during sunny days. > Of course ants > can navigate in zero light conditions as you found on your last visit to > California.* But obviously they aren't very smart in the darkness :-) > I need to study the literature to see if anyone has under any > circumstances > managed to get one-way trails. If so, one could perhaps collect a tiny > sample of the go-home pheromone, identify its chemical nature, synthesize > it > in the lab, then spray it in a room, at which time all the ants present > would go home. But if the keilbasa model is true, they will not go. If > it > is a non-directional food-or-home single pheromone, it might make the > problem worse, or could explain an odd phenom that you also discovered at > my > own home.* According to this paper, http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/106588115/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 the common garden ant uses isocoumarin (R)-1 for trails (and I think that is your species). Other species have other, but somewhat similar-looking, molecules. This paper seems to give support to the keilbasa theory, at least in one species (the forest ant) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7066/abs/438302a.html and this other paper argues (in a third species) http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(05)01412-0 something similar. Now we just need experiments. I'm very much an armchair entomologist... until the insects start climbing over me. Then I turn into an entomological paparazzi. > Anders I think you are just irresistable to bugs. Just look at my code :-) http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/2667127147/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/2871378208/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3011623026/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3622584790/ -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 16:23:12 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:23:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike Message-ID: Spike, how ants make and follow trails (odor) is well understood. Ants lay down the odor no matter which way they are going--which is why one way trails are probably not within the physics of the situation. Keith From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 19 16:40:19 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:40:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ants again In-Reply-To: <8a78ef519eaa6409dd6a01348ce6cf84.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com><4ADC3BD4.5010006@nada.kth.se> <8a78ef519eaa6409dd6a01348ce6cf84.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <39BD4DC5A270462BBCCB97FBA585B5AB@DFC68LF1> If they aren't smart in the darkness than why are they always maching one by one down into the earth to get out of the sun? http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/lyrics/antsgo.htm Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 10:13 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ants again spike wrote: > This is part of what I am hoping to find out: if the ants supplement > their pheromone signals with visuals. There is a difference in > activity levels as a function of light level, so that suggests some connection. It could be just temperature: being poikilothermic, insects tend to speed up a lot when there is more heat. It is very visible here in the UK. My nemesis, Notiophilus biguttatus, is absurdly fast during sunny days. > Of course ants > can navigate in zero light conditions as you found on your last visit > to > California.* But obviously they aren't very smart in the darkness :-) > I need to study the literature to see if anyone has under any > circumstances managed to get one-way trails. If so, one could perhaps > collect a tiny sample of the go-home pheromone, identify its chemical > nature, synthesize it in the lab, then spray it in a room, at which > time all the ants present would go home. But if the keilbasa model is > true, they will not go. If it is a non-directional food-or-home > single pheromone, it might make the problem worse, or could explain an > odd phenom that you also discovered at my own home.* According to this paper, http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/106588115/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETR Y=0 the common garden ant uses isocoumarin (R)-1 for trails (and I think that is your species). Other species have other, but somewhat similar-looking, molecules. This paper seems to give support to the keilbasa theory, at least in one species (the forest ant) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7066/abs/438302a.html and this other paper argues (in a third species) http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(05)01412-0 something similar. Now we just need experiments. I'm very much an armchair entomologist... until the insects start climbing over me. Then I turn into an entomological paparazzi. > Anders I think you are just irresistable to bugs. Just look at my code :-) http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/2667127147/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/2871378208/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3011623026/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3622584790/ -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From jameschoate at austin.rr.com Mon Oct 19 17:07:09 2009 From: jameschoate at austin.rr.com (jameschoate at austin.rr.com) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:07:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091019170709.JFUSY.399554.root@hrndva-web02-z01> There are lots of papers on arxiv.org about ants, their behavior, and how they apply it to traffic analysis. ---- Keith Henson wrote: > Spike, how ants make and follow trails (odor) is well understood. > > Ants lay down the odor no matter which way they are going--which is > why one way trails are probably not within the physics of the > situation. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- -- -- -- -- Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus James Choate jameschoate at austin.rr.com james.choate at twcable.com 512-657-1279 www.ssz.com http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center Adapt, Adopt, Improvise -- -- -- -- From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Oct 19 20:10:34 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:10:34 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <20091019170709.JFUSY.399554.root@hrndva-web02-z01> References: <20091019170709.JFUSY.399554.root@hrndva-web02-z01> Message-ID: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> jameschoate at austin.rr.com wrote: > There are lots of papers on arxiv.org about ants, their behavior, and how > they apply it to traffic analysis. But most of them are about ant algorithms rather than real formicids; learning how Spike's garden ants behave from them is like trying to learn psychology from the robotics papers on arxiv. Besides it is much more fun to actually do experiments oneself. Which laws of physics have we actually tested at home, lately? (I think my latest experiment was when I tried to extract lead from paint chips by boiling them in vinegar and identify it by precipitating it with salt; the experiment failed but smelled wonderfully of Chemistry) That said, I think Spike should check out this paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0403142 "Here, we present an experimental study of ants confronted with two alternative routes. We find that pheromone-based attraction generates one trail at low densities, whereas at a high level of crowding, another trail is established before traffic volume is affected, which guarantees that an optimal rate of food return is maintained. " -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From max at maxmore.com Mon Oct 19 21:14:37 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:14:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike Message-ID: <200910192141.n9JLfjVd000052@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Anders wrote: >jameschoate at austin.rr.com wrote: > > There are lots of papers on arxiv.org about ants, their behavior, and > > how they apply it to traffic analysis. > >But most of them are about ant algorithms rather than real >formicids; learning how Spike's garden ants behave from them is like >trying to learn psychology from the robotics papers on arxiv. Well said, Anders. We all would benefit from more personal experimentation in our lives. Reading is easy (and I for one, love it. But a real life of growth and learning demands experimentation.) Max From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 20 02:32:19 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:32:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <20091019170709.JFUSY.399554.root@hrndva-web02-z01> <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <9456FB8CF2824EF2B5A4EA8B4FF52625@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Anders Sandberg > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 1:11 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Ants to spike > > > jameschoate at austin.rr.com wrote: > > There are lots of papers on arxiv.org about ants, their > behavior, and > > how they apply it to traffic analysis. > > But most of them are about ant algorithms rather than real > formicids; learning how Spike's garden ants behave from them > is like trying to learn psychology from the robotics papers on arxiv... I have learned a lot from watching the little sons a bitches. Actually that term is more masculine, and they would more properly be called the little bitches. Of course the workers are all sterile non-breeders, but in any case I really hated them, as they were infesting my orange trees, but when I saw what they were doing up there and how cool that is, my attitude improved, not so much that I actually began to like them, but enough that my attitude approached exactly between hate and love, so now I neutral the little neuters. > Besides it is much more fun to actually do experiments > oneself. Which laws of physics have we actually tested at > home, lately? (I think my latest experiment was when I tried > to extract lead from paint chips by boiling them in vinegar > and identify it by precipitating it with salt; the experiment > failed but smelled wonderfully of Chemistry)... Anders it is a tragedy that we can now only with great difficulty do the kinds of amateur chemistry experiments that brought me so much joy in my own misspent youth. Now if one buys very much chemistry lab equipment, one draws attention to oneself as an amateur maker of explosives, thanks to those radical Presbyterians, and possibly a manufacturer of recreational pharmaceutcals. > That said, I think Spike should check out this paper: > http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0403142 Cool thanks Anders! > "Here, we present an experimental study of ants confronted > with two alternative routes. We find that pheromone-based > attraction generates one trail at low densities, whereas at a > high level of crowding, another trail is established before > traffic volume is affected, which guarantees that an optimal > rate of food return is maintained. " > Anders Sandberg, What kind of wackmeister would study such a subj... oh, wait... I did try some experiments a couple years ago, putting a longitudinal barrier right in the middle of a two-way ant trail, trying to get them to split and go one way on either side, but in every case, the migration route split into two two-way trails. Regarding the temperature sensitivity of the ants and Natasha's observation, I had noticed the ants activity level is highly dependent on temperature, but not so much (if at all) dependent on the light level. I went out on a moonless cloudy summer night and looked in on them with a flashlight. The ants were going right on thru the night with their labors. Like the ants, humans rely on the externalization of our collective wisdom. Only a tiny fraction of the body of human knowledge resides in our brains. The ants, bees, termites and humans are the four lifeforms which have most effectively evolved to externalize knowledge. We humans have recently enjoyed a quantum leap in the effectiveness of our knowledge-externalization capacity with the advent of the internet. Life is gooood. Living today is even better. Surely living thru the next quantum leap will be still better than now. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 03:50:01 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:50:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] what do the old timers do better than we do now? In-Reply-To: <8017E16391B74D3DAFE000F93DCFC582@spike> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> <8017E16391B74D3DAFE000F93DCFC582@spike> Message-ID: <62c14240910192050y45501589m46b8d8f087795468@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:12 AM, spike wrote: > So what, if anything, could our predecessors do better than we do now? ?I > will let you interpret that question broadly, so our predecessors could be > your father's generation, or people living a century ago, or thousands of > years ago. I apologize in advance for the facetious answer: old timers were 'better' at accepting human limitation and the apparent inevitability of age-related death. I'd say we're making progress. :) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 06:47:06 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:17:06 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <9456FB8CF2824EF2B5A4EA8B4FF52625@spike> References: <20091019170709.JFUSY.399554.root@hrndva-web02-z01> <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <9456FB8CF2824EF2B5A4EA8B4FF52625@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910192347m2de48594p129e4e30432676b7@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/20 spike : > Like the ants, humans rely on the externalization of our collective wisdom. > Only a tiny fraction of the body of human knowledge resides in our brains. > The ants, bees, termites and humans are the four lifeforms which have most > effectively evolved to externalize knowledge. ?We humans have recently > enjoyed a quantum leap in the effectiveness of our knowledge-externalization > capacity with the advent of the internet. Plus possibly naked mole rats as a distant fifth? -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From jameschoate at austin.rr.com Tue Oct 20 13:14:37 2009 From: jameschoate at austin.rr.com (jameschoate at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 8:14:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> ---- Anders Sandberg wrote: > > jameschoate at austin.rr.com wrote: > > There are lots of papers on arxiv.org about ants, their behavior, and how > > they apply it to traffic analysis. > > But most of them are about ant algorithms rather than real formicids; > learning how Spike's garden ants behave from them is like trying to learn > psychology from the robotics papers on arxiv. Only about 2/3, that still leaves quite a few discussing the computational biology aspect. And even the algorithmic ones are derived from experimentation or results of same to other regimes. Pareto Principle in action. > Besides it is much more fun to actually do experiments oneself. Which laws > of physics have we actually tested at home, lately? (I think my latest > experiment was when I tried to extract lead from paint chips by boiling > them in vinegar and identify it by precipitating it with salt; the > experiment failed but smelled wonderfully of Chemistry) I operate a hands-on science hackspace/museum and have been involved in hands-on for quite a few years. -- -- -- -- -- Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus James Choate jameschoate at austin.rr.com james.choate at twcable.com 512-657-1279 www.ssz.com http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center Adapt, Adopt, Improvise -- -- -- -- From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 20 14:13:45 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:13:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> Message-ID: <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> > jameschoate at austin.rr.com > Subject: Re: [ExI] Ants to spike > > ---- Anders Sandberg wrote: > > > > ... > > > Besides it is much more fun to actually do experiments > oneself. Which > > laws of physics have we actually tested at home, lately? (I > think my > > latest experiment was when I tried to extract lead from > paint chips by > > boiling them in vinegar and identify it by precipitating it > with salt; > > the experiment failed but smelled wonderfully of Chemistry)... Anders, precipitating lead from paint chips can probably be done with ordinary household chemicals, but not with vinegar. Mineral spirits or turpentine would likely be your best bet for getting the stuff into solution to start with. When you say precipitate it with salt, if you meant sodium chloride, you can consult the periodic table and recognize that you would form little or no lead chloride. So I can see at least two things in this approach that might explain your result. I may look up and try to estimate the lead content of paint, which I suspect is very low, then sketch a device to extract it from a solution using electroplating. As low as lead is in reactivity and with that +4 oxidation state, don't get too optimistic. Might need to figure out a way to extract the paint, then evaporate the solvent, then try to separate the lead from the rest of the goo that is left over. Otherwise my guess is try to form a nitrate or a sulfide rather than a chloride, then try to extract the lead nitrate or lead sulfide using a centrifuge. Of course if you try to get either sulfuric or nitric acid, you may attract the attention of the authorities. spike From asa at nada.kth.se Tue Oct 20 16:10:40 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:10:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> Message-ID: <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> spike wrote: > Anders, precipitating lead from paint chips can probably be done with > ordinary household chemicals, but not with vinegar. So you think there was too little acetate ions to make lead acetate? > When you say precipitate it with salt, if you meant sodium > chloride, you can consult the periodic table and recognize that you would > form little or no lead chloride. My thinking was that while lead acetate is water soluble, lead chloride is not, so it ought to precipitate. > So I can see at least two things in this > approach that might explain your result. Not to mention the absence of lead in the paint. After having filled the house with the smell of Science I discovered the old paintcans in the cellar. (The origin of the whole affair was that Nick Bostrom got worried about paint flakes that had washed off the house we share, and I argued that it was unlikely they were lead-containing. Rather than just trying to settle this by logic like true philosophers I started boiling vinegar) > Otherwise my guess is try to form a nitrate or a sulfide rather than a > chloride, then try to extract the lead nitrate or lead sulfide using a > centrifuge. Hmm, sulphides are always fun... I had great fun with aluminium sulphide, which reacts with water to make hydrogen sulphide. > Of course if you try to get either sulfuric or nitric acid, you may > attract > the attention of the authorities. "You fools! Can you not see that I am checking the safety of this house?! I *need* concentrated acids and heavy metals to keep us all safe and healthy!" -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asa at nada.kth.se Tue Oct 20 16:16:36 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:16:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] what do the old timers do better than we do now? In-Reply-To: <8017E16391B74D3DAFE000F93DCFC582@spike> References: <4ADA788C.7000908@satx.rr.com> <8017E16391B74D3DAFE000F93DCFC582@spike> Message-ID: <7c10769aae7ec563e2c19d2742849293.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> spike wrote: > > So what, if anything, could our predecessors do better than we do now? Animal behaviour (and control) is clearly a big thing. How many percent of current westerners encounter a mammal other than a cat or a dog? Compare that to the basic transport needs just a century ago. People learn about relevant parts of the environment, so I would expect our ancestors to have known a lot more *practical* information about their natural surroundings than we do. Not to mention practical skills with their everyday tools. While most were normal ability at this, this average would already be above our average. The best would likely beat our best, even taking into account our larger population. [ A population of N people will have someone ~sqrt(log(N)) standard deviations above average. So even a pretty small increase in population average will tend to outweigh a rather larger, but worse population. ] -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Oct 20 16:59:39 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:59:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> On 20 Oct, 2009, at 12:10, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > spike wrote: >> Anders, precipitating lead from paint chips can probably be done with >> ordinary household chemicals, but not with vinegar. > > So you think there was too little acetate ions to make lead acetate? Could be, but i think it unlikely that you would digest PbCO3 (or PbO, or lead chromate) with an organic acid. You could check the solubility products in the literature to be sure. I looked up lead paint, rather than relying on memory. They used all three of the species I just mentioned. >> >> > > Not to mention the absence of lead in the paint. Always a good possibility. Being a physicist, I'd find a portable XRF unit, or find a lab on campus that had one. XRF will give you proof positive of the presence of significant quantities of lead, in any oxidation state, in any compound. Hell of a lot easier than chemistry, if you've got it. :D > > >> Of course if you try to get either sulfuric or nitric acid, you may >> attract >> the attention of the authorities. > > "You fools! Can you not see that I am checking the safety of this > house?! > I *need* concentrated acids and heavy metals to keep us all safe and > healthy!" > > -- > Anders Sandberg, > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Brent Neal, Ph.D. http://brentn.freeshell.org From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Oct 20 16:46:32 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:46:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> Message-ID: On 20 Oct, 2009, at 10:13, spike wrote: > Anders, precipitating lead from paint chips can probably be done with > ordinary household chemicals, but not with vinegar. Mineral spirits > or > turpentine would likely be your best bet for getting the stuff into > solution > to start with. When you say precipitate it with salt, if you meant > sodium > chloride, you can consult the periodic table and recognize that you > would > form little or no lead chloride. So I can see at least two things > in this > approach that might explain your result. > > I may look up and try to estimate the lead content of paint, which I > suspect > is very low, then sketch a device to extract it from a solution using > electroplating. As low as lead is in reactivity and with that +4 > oxidation > state, don't get too optimistic. Might need to figure out a way to > extract > the paint, then evaporate the solvent, then try to separate the lead > from > the rest of the goo that is left over. > > Otherwise my guess is try to form a nitrate or a sulfide rather than a > chloride, then try to extract the lead nitrate or lead sulfide using a > centrifuge. > > Of course if you try to get either sulfuric or nitric acid, you may > attract > the attention of the authorities. Most likely, Anders failed to extract much lead using 5% acetic acid. Lead chloride is well-known in chemistry as one of the three insoluble chlorides (the other two being silver and mercury.) The way I would do this is to extract in 10% nitric acid. Lead nitrate is soluble in water, so the reaction would be Pb(NO3)2 -> 2NaCl (or, use 1 MgCl2!) -> PbCl2 + 2NaNO3. The lead chloride is the only one of these species that is not water soluble, so it will drive the reaction to the right. Also, while lead does have a +4 (and a -4!) oxidation state, you'll usually find it in a +2 state. The lead pigment used in paint was usually lead carbonate, which is clearly a lead(ii) species. Not a chemist, but I play one at my day job, B -- Brent Neal, Ph.D. http://brentn.freeshell.org From eugen at leitl.org Tue Oct 20 17:15:04 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:15:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> Message-ID: <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:59:39PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > >So you think there was too little acetate ions to make lead acetate? > > Could be, but i think it unlikely that you would digest PbCO3 (or PbO, You could. Just make sure you destroy the organic matrix; calcination would do. But it's always a good idea to have a few chemicals in the house. > or lead chromate) with an organic acid. You could check the solubility You don't need anything more for lead chromate than your eyes. > products in the literature to be sure. I looked up lead paint, rather > than relying on memory. They used all three of the species I just > mentioned. > > Always a good possibility. Being a physicist, I'd find a portable XRF > unit, or find a lab on campus that had one. XRF will give you proof > positive of the presence of significant quantities of lead, in any > oxidation state, in any compound. Hell of a lot easier than chemistry, > if you've got it. :D It is strange what a physicist considers easier. I think 18th/19th century qualitative analytics is hard to beat in speed and simplicity. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 21 01:23:00 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:23:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01><5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike><884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> Message-ID: <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl > Subject: Re: [ExI] Ants to spike > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:59:39PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote: .... > > Always a good possibility. Being a physicist, I'd find a > portable XRF > > unit...Hell of a lot easier than chemistry... > > It is strange what a physicist considers easier. I think > 18th/19th century qualitative analytics is hard to beat in > speed and simplicity... Eugen* Leitl And a lot more fun! Chemistry is such a kick. If we went for easy, it might be easiest to google and find how long it has been since lead has been taken out of house paints (a loooong time, generally more than 30 years.) On the other hand, Anders is writing from England, and I have heard legends that they have buildings back in that part of the world that are that old and some even older than that. The mind boggles. It isn't clear why Dr. Bostrom should have the least concern about it in any case, unless he planned to devour the paint chips, and even then, he would need to devour them in large quantities. As I recall, Nick has no larvae. There were a few cases of lead poisoning in the 1960s in the US, but in ever case it was from young children who for whatever strange reason, found paint chips very tasty. I have a hard enough time convincing my 3 yr old larva to eat actual food, so I seldom worry about his devouring paint chips. Hey so now we have Eugene and Anders posting here again. It is like a celebration of good times past. Life is gooood! spike From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 02:39:32 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:39:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> Message-ID: <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:23 PM, spike wrote: > Hey so now we have Eugene and Anders posting here again. ?It is like a > celebration of good times past. ?Life is gooood! Great, we just have to keep up the household chemistry discussion... From eugen at leitl.org Wed Oct 21 07:03:13 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:03:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:39:32PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote: > Great, we just have to keep up the household chemistry discussion... I think anything will do, as long as it is about actually doing things instead of talking about them. Or worse. What are y'all up to these days? I'm building a basic cryonics lab. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Oct 21 15:47:29 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:47:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> Message-ID: <05D6E7FB-A676-4D6D-9C0B-2FA22ABE229D@freeshell.org> On 20 Oct, 2009, at 13:15, Eugen Leitl wrote: > It is strange what a physicist considers easier. I think 18th/19th > century qualitative analytics is hard to beat in speed and > simplicity. Clearly, you've never used an XRF. :) Less than 2 minutes of sample prep (load powder or flak into PP vial) and about 2 minutes of scan time. Look for lead peak. Done. XRF is widely used in industry for quick assay, especially in environmental analyses. Just cause its "instrumentation" doesn't make it complicated! Spectroscopy is well- accessible to a citizen scientist. Also, you need more than eye for lead chromate, because how will you tell it from other blue pigments? B -- Brent Neal, Ph.D. http://brentn.freeshell.org From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Oct 21 15:48:45 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:48:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> Message-ID: <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> On 21 Oct, 2009, at 3:03, Eugen Leitl wrote: > What are y'all up to these days? I'm building a basic cryonics lab. I'm breeding yeasts and fungi. And teaching the geekspawn about physics and chemistry. B -- Brent Neal, Ph.D. http://brentn.freeshell.org From eugen at leitl.org Wed Oct 21 16:02:36 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:02:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <05D6E7FB-A676-4D6D-9C0B-2FA22ABE229D@freeshell.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <05D6E7FB-A676-4D6D-9C0B-2FA22ABE229D@freeshell.org> Message-ID: <20091021160236.GY27331@leitl.org> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:47:29AM -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > Clearly, you've never used an XRF. :) Less than 2 minutes of sample I have. I just don't have one in the house right now. Can I borrow yours? > prep (load powder or flak into PP vial) and about 2 minutes of scan > time. Look for lead peak. Done. XRF is widely used in industry for > quick assay, especially in environmental analyses. Just cause its > "instrumentation" doesn't make it complicated! Spectroscopy is well- > accessible to a citizen scientist. > > > Also, you need more than eye for lead chromate, because how will you > tell it from other blue pigments? That's because if it's an old house with oil paint which looks like this http://images.google.com/images?q=lead chromate there aren't too many options. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From eugen at leitl.org Wed Oct 21 16:05:15 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:05:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> Message-ID: <20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:48:45AM -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > >What are y'all up to these days? I'm building a basic cryonics lab. > I'm breeding yeasts and fungi. Are you with DYI-bio, or on your own? > And teaching the geekspawn about physics and chemistry. Mine is a bit too young still. I can really recommend the Leapster from LeapFrog for those of you who have small kids. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Oct 21 17:06:04 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:06:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> <20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> Message-ID: <53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org> On 21 Oct, 2009, at 12:05, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:48:45AM -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > >>> What are y'all up to these days? I'm building a basic cryonics lab. >> I'm breeding yeasts and fungi. > > Are you with DYI-bio, or on your own? I am part of the DIYbio community, but I'm doing this the old fashioned way, not by gene splicing. :) > > >> And teaching the geekspawn about physics and chemistry. > > Mine is a bit too young still. I can really recommend the > Leapster from LeapFrog for those of you who have small kids. > > I second that recommendation - we were quite impressed with it. B -- Brent Neal, Ph.D. http://brentn.freeshell.org From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Oct 21 17:16:25 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:16:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <20091021160236.GY27331@leitl.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01> <5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike> <884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <05D6E7FB-A676-4D6D-9C0B-2FA22ABE229D@freeshell.org> <20091021160236.GY27331@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 21 Oct, 2009, at 12:02, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:47:29AM -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > >> Clearly, you've never used an XRF. :) Less than 2 minutes of sample > > I have. I just don't have one in the house right now. Can I borrow > yours? You need to schmooze the grad students more. :) Certainly, if there is a quick, dirty chemical analysis, you can get your instant gratification. But even with something as simple as the lead precipitation, if you don't have nitric acid laying around, you're going to struggle. It all depends on what you have going for you and who you know. Most ppl don't have a CNC machine, but if you need to get things milled, I'd bet you that you've made friends with someone who owns/works at a machine shop. You could also build your own XRF - in principle, all you need is an x- ray tube, a photomultiplier tube, and some monochromator optics. If you really wanted to gild the lily, you could get a bell jar, and a tank of helium. > > >> prep (load powder or flak into PP vial) and about 2 minutes of scan >> time. Look for lead peak. Done. XRF is widely used in industry for >> quick assay, especially in environmental analyses. Just cause its >> "instrumentation" doesn't make it complicated! Spectroscopy is well- >> accessible to a citizen scientist. >> >> >> Also, you need more than eye for lead chromate, because how will you >> tell it from other blue pigments? > > That's because if it's an old house with oil paint which looks > like this http://images.google.com/images?q=lead chromate > there aren't too many options. > > I agree that looks distinct. However, I'm not sure if I'd trust my aging eyeballs to distinguish a small chip with lead chromate from some cobalt compound. :) B -- Brent Neal, Ph.D. http://brentn.freeshell.org From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 22 02:05:22 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:05:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ants to spike In-Reply-To: <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01><5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike><884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org><20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org><40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike><62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com><20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> Message-ID: >...On Behalf Of Brent Neal > Subject: Re: [ExI] Ants to spike > > > On 21 Oct, 2009, at 3:03, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > What are y'all up to these days? I'm building a basic cryonics lab. > I'm breeding yeasts and fungi. > > And teaching the geekspawn about physics and chemistry. ... > Brent Neal, Ph.D. Doing the family thing mostly. Parents are building a house, helping where I can. After their divorce and remarriage, Shelly and I have six parents between us. All six have serious health problems. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 22 05:49:58 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:49:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><20091020131437.1G56C.437610.root@hrndva-web07-z01><5A0E0F12255C4F6999CB003CAFDC07A6@spike><884b67b49b91cc98210180aeb4fb3aad.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org><20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org><40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike><62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com><20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org><8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org><20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> <53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org> Message-ID: <40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> Our ant discussion led to how we are getting extraordinarily good at externalizing and recalling our collective knowledge. Consider Pandora Internet Radio, something that made the rounds a long time ago here, but I was too busy at the time to mess with it. I took it out yesterday and was astounded at how good it was at somehow scooping up the collective wisdom of some ethereal cloud of internet-based human experience in the music realm. http://www.pandora.com/#/ I started a new station, and gave it only James Taylor and Karen Carpenter. It did the rest, and came up with a number of others, which I thumbed up or down, and it figured out I like John Denver, Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfunkel, ABBA, Christine McVie, Anne Murray, Neil Diamond, a terrific collection of sweetly pleasant white-bread musicians. It did a very good job of picking out the contents of my own CD collection, which I compiled so tragically many years ago. If you knew nothing of the music scene, you would need only tell it your favorite musician or group, and give it a few thumbs up or down, and it could create a personalized internet radio station that you will like. And it is free! No advertisement, no pledge drives, no yakkity DJs, such a deal! Life is gooood. Living now is even better. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 06:22:37 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:52:37 +1030 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org> <20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> <20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> <53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org> <40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/22 spike : > > Our ant discussion led to how we are getting extraordinarily good at > externalizing and recalling our collective knowledge. ?Consider Pandora > Internet Radio, something that made the rounds a long time ago here, but I > was too busy at the time to mess with it. ?I took it out yesterday and was > astounded at how good it was at somehow scooping up the collective wisdom of > some ethereal cloud of internet-based human experience in the music realm. > > http://www.pandora.com/#/ > > I started a new station, and gave it only James Taylor and Karen Carpenter. > It did the rest, and came up with a number of others, which I thumbed up or > down, and it figured out I like John Denver, Fleetwood Mac, Simon and > Garfunkel, ABBA, Christine McVie, Anne Murray, Neil Diamond, a terrific > collection of sweetly pleasant white-bread musicians. ?It did a very good > job of picking out the contents of my own CD collection, which I compiled so > tragically many years ago. > > If you knew nothing of the music scene, you would need only tell it your > favorite musician or group, and give it a few thumbs up or down, and it > could create a personalized internet radio station that you will like. ?And > it is free! ?No advertisement, no pledge drives, no yakkity DJs, such a > deal! > > Life is gooood. ?Living now is even better. > > spike > I use Last.fm a lot, same deal. I type in something like "tallis scholars", then it gives me a bunch of options including "Play Tallis Scholars Radio", I press that, and I get an ongoing stream of the Tallis Scholars and groups like them (according to data mining magic), awesome. Just brilliant. I threw out all my CDs. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 22 14:19:37 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 07:19:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org><20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org><40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike><62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com><20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org><8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org><20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org><53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org><40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <93483D5AC5F14753BBEB74699CB1E79C@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Emlyn > ... > > and it could create a personalized internet radio station that you > > will like. ?And it is free! ?No advertisement, no pledge drives, no > > yakkity DJs, such a deal! > > > > Life is gooood. ?Living now is even better. > > > > spike > > > > I use Last.fm a lot, same deal. I type in something like > "tallis scholars", then it gives me a bunch of options > including "Play Tallis Scholars Radio", I press that, and I > get an ongoing stream of the Tallis Scholars and groups like > them (according to data mining magic), awesome. Just > brilliant. I threw out all my CDs. > > -- > Emlyn Ja that is kinda where I am going with this observation. I don't see what is in it for Pandora. It completely obviates the purchase of the CDs they are hoping to sell. They have suggested some excellent music that I had never heard, such as Coldplay. But there isn't much point in my buying their CD. If you consider Pandora the ultimate advertisement technique, it is too good, so good that the advertisement defeats the actual sale, simultaneously creating a desire and eliminating the necessity. spike From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 23 04:27:25 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:27:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] map of all space missions Message-ID: <5A36A4DCF9B8422994326C2BFB644BBD@spike> Cool! A map of every space mission: http://www.dump.com/2009/10/17/every-space-mission-from-the-last-50-years-on -one-map/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 05:29:52 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:59:52 +1030 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <93483D5AC5F14753BBEB74699CB1E79C@spike> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> <20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> <53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org> <40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> <93483D5AC5F14753BBEB74699CB1E79C@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910222229hd5c39b3w143f4628ea661f2e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/23 spike : > > >> ...On Behalf Of Emlyn >> ... >> > and it could create a personalized internet radio station that you >> > will like. ?And it is free! ?No advertisement, no pledge drives, no >> > yakkity DJs, such a deal! >> > >> > Life is gooood. ?Living now is even better. >> > >> > spike >> > >> >> I use Last.fm a lot, same deal. I type in something like >> "tallis scholars", then it gives me a bunch of options >> including "Play Tallis Scholars Radio", I press that, and I >> get an ongoing stream of the Tallis Scholars and groups like >> them (according to data mining magic), awesome. Just >> brilliant. I threw out all my CDs. >> >> -- >> Emlyn > > > Ja that is kinda where I am going with this observation. ?I don't see what > is in it for Pandora. ?It completely obviates the purchase of the CDs they > are hoping to sell. ?They have suggested some excellent music that I had > never heard, such as Coldplay. ?But there isn't much point in my buying > their CD. ?If you consider Pandora the ultimate advertisement technique, it > is too good, so good that the advertisement defeats the actual sale, > simultaneously creating a desire and eliminating the necessity. > > spike > I think online music sales have been going from strength to strength. You and I can see the point of a purely virtual "collection", but largely people are still trained to want to "possess" digital information. But Kevin Kelly will say this better than me. It's about Ownership vs Access. http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2009/01/better_than_own.php btw, I don't know about Pandora, but last.fm has a model where it's free to listen to a random selection from your library or related to a specific artist, but if you want to micromanage what you listen to, you have to pay. That probably works pretty well, revenue-wise. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 23 05:53:15 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:53:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><4B0BA521-F806-4F7C-B496-404921C5E9F8@freeshell.org><20091020171504.GV27331@leitl.org><40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike><62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com><20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org><8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org><20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org><53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org><40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4418FF5B1F77453197B43B42D359D5A2@spike> > ... > > http://www.pandora.com/#/ > > > > ...create a personalized internet radio station that you > > will like. ?And it is free! ?No advertisement, no pledge drives, no > > yakkity DJs, such a deal! > > > > Life is gooood. ?Living now is even better. > > > > spike > > > I use Last.fm a lot, same deal... awesome. Just > brilliant. I threw out all my CDs. > -- > Emlyn OK, that might be an important point Emlyn, you threw out your CDs. I have noticed something odd: on Pandora many or most of the songs seem to not be the exact versions of the same songs that are on the original vinyl or CD. I noticed it particularly on a selection from Simon and Garfunkel's Wednesday Morning 3AM album, one of my favorites, but the recording was not the best. Perhaps it was crummy recording equipment of the day (1964) and it was their debut album, so they didn't have a lot of money for studio optimization perhaps. In any case, I like every song on it, but the recording itself sounds muddy. Same with John Denver: Pandora uses later versions of his songs, when his voice and the recording equipment was even better than before. So the Pandora version is better than the original album. I think they must be using later, better versions of most of the songs than are on the original albums, but they are actually advertising the CDs. So if someone heard material on Pandora and bought the CD, they would likely be disappointed. So then, Emlyn, you being a musician can scarcely miss the obvious lesson: it is not to the artist's advantage to have her work on Pandora. It would be a sales killer, ja? spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 06:25:50 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:55:50 +1030 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <4418FF5B1F77453197B43B42D359D5A2@spike> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> <20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> <53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org> <40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> <4418FF5B1F77453197B43B42D359D5A2@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910222325r41e1dbabldf9a6a1a18f8d199@mail.gmail.com> > > So then, Emlyn, you being a musician can scarcely miss the obvious lesson: > it is not to the artist's advantage to have her work on Pandora. ?It would > be a sales killer, ja? > > spike I don't think so. I think in fact people (subset of people) buy copies of music by musicians they know & like. Everywhere that I see studies on the effects of free digital copies on sales, the availability of free copies cause a boost in sales. Weird but seems to be the way. Also, savvy artists are now making money in other ways than sales of recordings; eg: from merchandise and events. Recordings now are less and less the money spinner; they are the promo tool for other things. Some examples: How Amanda Palmer made $11,000 on Twitter in two hours: http://www.webinknow.com/2009/07/yesterday-i-enjoyed-spending-some-time-with-amanda-palmer-lead-singer-of-the-dresden-dolls-and-punk-cabaret-force-of-nature.html Radiohead reveal how successful 'In Rainbows' download really was: http://www.nme.com/news/radiohead/40444 "According to reports most fans chose to pay nothing to download the album. However, it still generated more money before it was physically released (on December 31) than the total money generated by sales of the band's previous album, 2003's 'Hail To The Thief'." There are more examples of this out there. Very important: Have you heard of/read Chris Anderson's "Free: The Future of a Radical Price" ? (he's the editor of Wired, btw). It describes in long gory detail the "freemium" model; where you give away your real product, and find ways to make all your money from say 10% of the customer base, while the other 90% gets a free ride. If this stuff is still counterintuitive, people really need to update their intuitions :-) -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From max at maxmore.com Fri Oct 23 14:44:32 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:44:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices Message-ID: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> An update on augmented reality products in the works. Probably nothing new if you follow this closely. It's part of an article on five near-term technologies that will "change everything" [hyperbole alert!]: http://www.cio.com/article/505555/Five_New_Technologies_That_Will_Change_Everything?page=4&taxonomyId=1461 Max From max at maxmore.com Fri Oct 23 14:31:25 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:31:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again Message-ID: <200910231501.n9NF102a018120@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Emlyn wrote: >Everywhere that I see studies on the effects of free digital copies >on sales, the availability of free copies cause a boost in sales. >Weird but seems to be the way. Really? That's not what I've seen. How do you reconcile what you say with the well-documented decline in record sales? Are you saying that the musicians who give away their music the most vigorously are selling more, while the less vigorous givers are experiencing massive declines? For instance, I read this piece a couple of days ago. The included chart shows strongly falling sales of CDs, even as music consumption grows: What the GDP Gets Wrong (Why Managers Should Care) By Erik Brynjolfsson, Adam Saunders MIT Sloan Management Review, Fall 2009 (October) http://sloanreview.mit.edu/the-magazine/articles/2009/fall/51119/what-the-gdp-gets-wrong-why-managers-should-care/ I'm one of those people who likes to own rather than simply access. Why? Because I'm concerned that conditions will change and I'll no longer be able to access what I want, or a fee will be added later. This is especially a concern when you have to have a proprietary device or service membership to access the music. Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 04:01:40 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:31:40 +1030 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <200910231501.n9NF102a018120@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910231501.n9NF102a018120@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910232101r49183d4dpe18bb786a06b937b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/24 Max More : > Emlyn wrote: >> >> Everywhere that I see studies on the effects of free digital copies on >> sales, the availability of free copies cause a boost in sales. Weird but >> seems to be the way. > > Really? That's not what I've seen. How do you reconcile what you say with > the well-documented decline in record sales? Are you saying that the > musicians who give away their music the most vigorously are selling more, > while the less vigorous givers are experiencing massive declines? What's a record? Do you mean vinyl? Vinyl has shrunk down to a dedicated niche due to CDs, but sales are now growing: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/06/vinyl-sales-to-hit-another-high-point-in-2009.html Or CDs? Sure, they've been declining, but we would expect them to, they're old tech. Eventually they should shrink down to some niche and stay there (like vinyl and buggy whips). Or maybe you mean the album format? But that was an artifact of shipping physical objects around, an optimisation for extract revenue from the target audience. In a pure information environment, an optimisation like that is wrong, and we should see a new optimum emerge, which is the single song. Or do you mean overall sales revenue for the recording industry? See below. > For instance, I read this piece a couple of days ago. The included chart > shows strongly falling sales of CDs, even as music consumption grows: > > What the GDP Gets Wrong (Why Managers Should Care) > By Erik Brynjolfsson, Adam Saunders > MIT Sloan Management Review, Fall 2009 (October) > http://sloanreview.mit.edu/the-magazine/articles/2009/fall/51119/what-the-gdp-gets-wrong-why-managers-should-care/ omg I had to sign up to read this; if I hadn't been trying to participate in this thread there's no way I would have bothered. Actually I'm glad I did, it's a good article, but still. Here: "Consumers have changed their purchasing habits by buying fewer physical units (CDs, cassettes or vinyl records). Sales declined from more than 800 million units in 2004 to just 400 million units in 2008. Contrast that with the vast increase in paid downloads of digital songs. In 2008, more than 1 billion digital single songs were purchased in the United States, as well as more than 50 million digital albums. An even larger number of songs were downloaded illegally, though that?s not reflected in our charts." So people have actually been buying more units! The music industry's woes then aren't that people are buying less, but that their margins are lower; they can't make the ridiculous margins that they used to make via an oligopoly in turn based on a massive barrier to entry in terms of plant cost, vertically integrated supply chains that locked others out, much creative use and abuse of gatekeeper status, etc etc. Also, people buy single songs instead of albums, because they've noticed that most albums are largely full of filler content - a couple of hits, a bunch of crap, and you pay the entire album cost to access the hits. Well boo hoo. Also, when you look at the music industry's revenue, you must factor in their great mistake. They had many opportunities to own the online distribution mechanism, and screwed them up (especially killing napster). Eventually along came Apple, and destroyed their future status as bloated oligopoly. Hilarious. >From your article: "Yet this increase in the number of units has not translated into more revenue ? in fact, quite the opposite has occurred. Combined revenue from the sale of songs for the record companies went from more than $12.3 billion in 2004 to $7.4 billion in 2008 ? a whopping 40% decline. Even if we add digital sales made on mobile phones (which would include ringtones), subscriptions from services such as Napster Inc. or Real Network Inc.?s Rhapsody, and digital performance royalties paid by Pandora Media Inc. and others, the digital total expands to just $2.7 billion, making the overall total $8.5 billion ? still 30% less than it was in 2004. The recording industry is disappearing from the GDP statistics." Here Wired estimates that Apple made 500 million from iTunes in 2007; by now this figure must be far higher. http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2008/03/apple-apparentl/ Now Apple's profits probably aren't accounting for the music industry's losses. However, there's the Craigslist effect to take into account. Here's a classic chart showing the relationship between billions lost by the newspaper industry, and millions gained by Craigslist: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-craigslist-vs-newspaper-2009-6 That's what Apple is doing to the music industry. It's created a new business, handsomely profitable, that just happens to be blasting a prior industry an order of magnitude larger into smithereens. Creative destruction! It's what libertarians crave! :-) The claims of the record industry that piracy is killing it are ludicrous. It's a structural shift that is killing it, piracy is a blip. Think about all the people you know who listen to music and have an iPod. Most of them never pirate on a large scale, and the ones who do have probably always done and were never customers to begin with. More likely, your friends with iPods listen to their own ripped CDs, and to stuff they bought on iTunes. They probably buy more songs overall than they used to, in fact. But all their new music is coming from iTunes, and every song they buy is a body blow to the recording industry. Free availability of music is, I think, still something that boosts sales. It's just that those sales are largely digital, and for the recording industry that isn't helpful. For artists though, sales *are* helpful. Those with major labels might be getting less revenue, but there are a lot now who do their own thing, self promote and distribute, and for those people, this is a bright new world. The thing is, free availability of your music (be it legit or "piracy") means more people listening to your music, which means more fame. People listening to your music is good! The enemy for any artist is obscurity! Fame, you can translate into cash. Obscurity means flipping burgers. For musicians trying to make a living in the digital world, you can't look at every free listen and say that's a lost sale. You need to try different strategies and see how your sales are affected. If only 1% of your fan base pays, but you have a massive fan base, you can do extremely well. > I'm one of those people who likes to own rather than simply access. Why? > Because I'm concerned that conditions will change and I'll no longer be able > to access what I want, or a fee will be added later. This is especially a > concern when you have to have a proprietary device or service membership to > access the music. > > Max Agree, especially with regards to proprietary services. But that just shows that we need a better system of access, because there definitely are things that you can access that you probably wouldn't care to own just in case. You don't feel as though you need your own search engine software running on your own servers, even though you could do it; google will be fine. You probably don't bother to have your own email server, even though many people do, access will be fine. You most likely don't own a set of encyclopedias any more. etc. Music will get there eventually, just by sheer pressure. Pandora and last.fm are proprietary and could disappear, but Youtube looks pretty stable, and the music available on youtube, wow! It's actually changed the way musicians I know go about learning and learning about music. Once apon a time, I would have learned a song largely from the sheet music. Now, I use the sheet music, but I also watch many, many different version by famous and excellent recording artists on youtube, and learn nuances I once would have missed. It's a vast improvement. It's amazing how the innumerable improvements in life like this map coincide with less money changing hands. How much of the increasingly impacted GDP was just a kind of broken window fallacy? -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Oct 24 04:18:27 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:18:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Emlyn on] externalization of knowledge In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910232101r49183d4dpe18bb786a06b937b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910231501.n9NF102a018120@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232101r49183d4dpe18bb786a06b937b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE28013.90406@satx.rr.com> A typically fine, thoughtful and provocative post by Emlyn. Go, Emmers! Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 05:01:16 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:31:16 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Emlyn on] externalization of knowledge In-Reply-To: <4AE28013.90406@satx.rr.com> References: <200910231501.n9NF102a018120@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232101r49183d4dpe18bb786a06b937b@mail.gmail.com> <4AE28013.90406@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910232201w6dd3d00dnf82fca39d094fbc5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/24 Damien Broderick : > A typically fine, thoughtful and provocative post by Emlyn. Go, Emmers! > > Damien Broderick And, I distribute it for free. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 05:08:06 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:38:06 +1030 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> In the little R&D company I work for, everyone recently got iPhones (except me, I relinquished mobile phones some time back, they're the work of the devil). People have already been using some of the augmented reality apps, and we're planning to develop in that space ourselves. We work on stuff in the physical computing space, devices that get installed outdoors, and finding installed devices for service purposes is always tricky. The augmented reality approach is excellent to help solve that; makes it really easy to find stuff. Walking around holding an iPhone in front of you is pretty much wrong, however. That space is still on the move. 2009/10/24 Max More : > An update on augmented reality products in the works. Probably nothing new > if you follow this closely. It's part of an article on five near-term > technologies that will "change everything" [hyperbole alert!]: > > http://www.cio.com/article/505555/Five_New_Technologies_That_Will_Change_Everything?page=4&taxonomyId=1461 > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From sparge at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 14:01:00 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 10:01:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] externalization of knowledge again In-Reply-To: <93483D5AC5F14753BBEB74699CB1E79C@spike> References: <542ee870d11299692f8829468a657a1c.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <40F8E1EA6AF5479CBC844FF3CD26B0DA@spike> <62c14240910201939m68bc7a49l8a7df01e16a3bede@mail.gmail.com> <20091021070313.GA27331@leitl.org> <8D3C2E0C-1B62-4F85-967C-7011CB058F3B@freeshell.org> <20091021160515.GZ27331@leitl.org> <53ACFA94-1B7C-4552-BFF7-4D796BCA6F83@freeshell.org> <40E4DBA7F360496BAD7204EBB87EAB14@spike> <710b78fc0910212322r34054081nbdc651f3a2091a9d@mail.gmail.com> <93483D5AC5F14753BBEB74699CB1E79C@spike> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 10:19 AM, spike wrote: > > Ja that is kinda where I am going with this observation. ?I don't see what > is in it for Pandora. ?It completely obviates the purchase of the CDs they > are hoping to sell. ?They have suggested some excellent music that I had > never heard, such as Coldplay. ?But there isn't much point in my buying > their CD. ?If you consider Pandora the ultimate advertisement technique, it > is too good, so good that the advertisement defeats the actual sale, > simultaneously creating a desire and eliminating the necessity. Pandora doesn't exist to promote CD sales. It exists to sell its own service, which is more analogous to a customizable radio station than a library of music that can be played on demand. Its revenue comes from advertising and fees and its biggest cost is royalties (70% of income). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_%28music_service%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundExchange -Dave From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 26 13:49:19 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:49:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 03:38:06PM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > Walking around holding an iPhone in front of you is pretty much wrong, > however. That space is still on the move. Still is. Since 1989, or so. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 18:07:34 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:07:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Intelligence Explained In-Reply-To: <4ae5e356.6944f10a.683b.ffffa563SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4ae5e356.6944f10a.683b.ffffa563SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Most of you have probably seen this, but better an extra copy than none at all. Keith http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/23695/ ================================================== November/December 2009 Intelligence Explained Tracking and understanding the complex connections within the brain may finally reveal the neural secret of cognitive ability. By Emily Singer A series of black-and-white snapshots is splayed across the screen, each capturing a thin slice of my brain. The gray-scale pictures would look familiar to anyone who has seen a brain scan, but these images are different. Andrew Frew, a neuroscientist at the University of California, Los Angeles, uses a cursor to select a small square. Thin strands like spaghetti appear, representing the thousands of neural fibers passing through it. A few clicks of the cursor and Frew refines the tract of fibers pictured on the screen, highlighting first my optic nerve, then the fibers passing through a part of the brain that's crucial for language, then the bundles of motor and sensory nerves that head down to the brain stem. Frew is giving me a tour of my white matter--the tissue connecting the neurons, or nerve cells, that make up gray matter. Something about the twisting, turning neural wires that ferry information between the neurons--their individual thickness, perhaps, or their abundance, or the specific paths they take from one part of the brain to another--may explain, at least in part, the variations in human intelligence. Scientists have been searching more than two centuries for the source of intelligence--the general cognitive ability often quantified in the form of IQ. With the advent of technologies such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), researchers concentrating mainly on gray matter have been able to map the parts of the brain that appear to play a role. But this has taken them only so far, and the focus on gray matter has not told the whole story. Not until the last few years, as new variations of MRI home in on the brain's white matter, has a deeper understanding begun to emerge. "Scientists are now able to switch the focus from particular regions of the brain to the connections between those regions," says Sherif Karama, a psychiatrist and a neuroscientist at McGill University's Montreal Neurological Institute. Their initial findings have led Karama and others to believe that neural wiring and the way it carries information around the brain may be crucially important to IQ. Until fairly recently, only a few scientists were studying how brain structure might be related to IQ, in part because the idea of a biological and genetic basis for intelligence has long been controversial. Since people from different ethnic groups often score differently on intelligence tests, such studies may raise contentions of racism, and critics fear potential abuses such as discrimination in education or employment. Nonetheless, new imaging techniques have allowed types of studies never before possible, and the number of research groups focusing on this question is growing quickly. Many of these groups are setting their sights on white matter. The hope is that finding the brain areas and circuits involved in intelligence will provide new insight into neurological and psychiatric diseases that impair cognition, such as Alzheimer's and schizophrenia. "If you want to understand cognitive decline, you need to understand how cognition is manifested and put together in the brain," says Rex Jung, a neuroscientist at the Mind Research Network in Albuquerque, NM. The research may also improve understanding of learning disabilities such as dyslexia and ADHD, perhaps leading to better treatments. But other potential applications could be more controversial. Some scientists envision a day when brain scans are used to estimate IQ. Sandra F. Witelson, a neuroscientist at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, says, "It's not a wild guess to say that sometime in the future, brain scans will be part of a group of tools that try to indicate what level someone's ability is going to be." Big Brains Neuroscientist Paul Thompson is one of those researchers studying brain structure and IQ, but that wasn't what he planned on when he started his lab at UCLA: he focused on the wave of changes in the brain that characterize Alzheimer's and schizophrenia. Because serious cognitive deficits accompany both of those diseases, however, Thompson and his collaborators tested cognitive function in their subjects. When they began to look more closely for variables that correlated with brain structure, they found that intelligence seemed to be among the most significant. "IQ came in as a key factor that determines how the brain looks," Thompson says. Scientists who study intelligence typically define it in comparative terms, as a general cognitive ability measured against a mean. A quantifiable "general intelligence factor," known as g, can be statistically extracted from scores on a battery of intelligence tests. While some people clearly have particular areas of talent, those who score well on one test are likely to score well on others as well, reflecting a higher g. Researchers have yet to find a simple neural explanation for g. In 2001, Thompson showed that it is correlated with volume in the frontal cortex, a result consistent with a number of studies that have linked intelligence to overall brain size. But size is a crude measure: while larger brains may be smarter on average, it's not clear if that's because they have more nerve cells, more connections between cells, or more of the fibers that carry neural signals. Any of these factors can result in a larger brain or thicker cortex, but neither of these things is necessary for great intelligence. Studies of Albert Einstein's brain, for example, have found that it was typical in size, or even a bit on the small side. (It was missing a wrinkle in the inferior parietal lobe, which is behind the frontal cortex; some have speculated that this quirk allowed the neurons in that region to communicate more effectively.) As structural brain imaging has become more sophisticated, scientists have focused on sections of the brain involved in specific tasks, including sensory processing, memory, attention, and decision making. Different studies have connected different areas with intelligence, however, making it difficult to come to an overarching conclusion about its anatomical basis. But what if the key to intelligence is neither an individual area of the brain nor its total volume but the network over which information is transmitted and integrated? In 2007, Jung and Richard Haier, now professor emeritus of psychology at the University of California, Irvine, developed the first comprehensive theory drawn from neuroimaging of how the brain gives rise to intelligence. Gathering information from 37 published papers that had used imaging to study intelligence, they mapped out the brain areas that had been pinpointed in at least a third of the studies to sketch a network of regions spanning the frontal and parietal lobes. The network consists of about 10 nodes, or clusters of cells, that had been linked to attention, working memory, and facial recognition, among other cognitive functions. Applying existing theories of how information flows in the brain, Jung and Haier hypothesized that neural signals travel from nodes near the back of the brain, where sensory data is collected and synthesized, to those in the frontal lobes, which are responsible for decision making and planning. The connections between these nodes, they argued, are just as critical as the nodes themselves. "If the nodes of a network aren't communicating effectively and efficiently, then the network won't function efficiently," says Jung. The theory was provocative, but the data used to develop it had a major limitation: the published studies had focused primarily on gray matter. As for the connecting white matter, Jung and Haier inferred its paths from the locations of the key nodes and existing maps of neural anatomy. They didn't look directly at the white matter itself, largely because they lacked the technology to do so. Connections By volume, gray matter makes up roughly half the human brain. The other half is white matter, consisting of filament-like neural projections wrapped in a fatty material called myelin; such a high proportion of white matter appears to be unique to humans. As we "evolved from worms to humans," says George Bartzokis, a professor of psychiatry at UCLA, the number of non-neural cells in the brain increased 50 times more than the number of neurons. He adds, "My hypothesis has always been that what gives us our cognitive capacity is not actually the number of neurons, which can vary tremendously between human individuals, but rather the quality of our connections." Thanks to their layer of insulation, which prevents leakage of electrical impulses, myelinated nerve fibers can send signals about 100 times as fast as unmyelinated ones. The myelin also allows more information to be sent per second by reducing the waiting time between signals. The result is that neurons can process 3,000 times as much information as would otherwise be possible. That capacity, Bartzokis believes, is crucial for speaking and processing language. The type of MRI typically used for medical scans does not show the finer details of the brain's white matter. But with a technique called diffusion tensor imaging (DTI), which uses the scanner's magnet to track the movement of water molecules in the brain, scientists have developed ways to map out neural wiring in detail. While water moves randomly within most brain tissue, it flows along the insulated neural fibers like current through a wire. Most DTI scans break the MRI image into tiny areas and measure the diffusion of water molecules through each one in six to 12 directions, which is sufficient for detecting thick bundles of neural fibers. But places where wiring overlaps appear as a blur. Newer variations of diffusion imaging measure diffusion in 50 to 500 directions. Computer algorithms synthesize this data into a three-dimensional picture showing the most likely paths of nerve fibers through each area, and then stitch together the information from multiple points to create a wiring map. The strength of the diffusion signal--the extent to which it reveals a clear direction--is used to gauge how organized the fibers of the white matter are. A stronger diffusion signal may indicate more fibers or thicker myelin; scientists don't yet know. But the newer diffusion imaging methods have revealed a strong correlation between the strength of this signal--what researchers refer to as the "integrity" of the white matter--and performance on a standard IQ test. "DTI turns out to be one of the most sensitive MRI measures we have for cognitive function," says Vincent Schmithorst, a neuroscientist at Cincinnati Children's Hospital. Thompson refers to his diffusion maps as "pictures of mental speed." Previous research has repeatedly linked IQ to processing speed, and other studies show that processing speed in turn is tightly linked to the quality of one's white matter. Does that mean intelligence is determined by how fast the brain works? If so, does finding the key to processing speed in the brain mean researchers have finally found the secret to intelligence? In reality, speed is probably not the only determinant of IQ. "One of the things that is important for IQ is frontal-lobe function, which is involved in planning, decision making, and weighing evidence," Thompson says. "I wouldn't think of those skills as being entirely reliant on mental speed." Some of the newest theories of intelligence suggest that the crucial factor may be how efficiently information moves around the brain, rather than just how quickly. In a recent study led by Martijn P. van den Heuvel, a neuroscientist at University Medical Center Utrecht, in the Netherlands, researchers defined efficiency as the number of links it takes to get from one node to another--both in specific brain areas and all over the brain. Just as a direct flight from Paris to Chicago would be considered more efficient than one with a layover in London, a direct link between two parts of the brain would be more efficient than an indirect route. Van den Heuvel and colleagues found that people with above-normal IQs of 120 and up had the most efficient brain networks. "Our hypothesis is that IQ is about how the human brain can integrate different types of information, how easily it can get information from one brain region to another," van den Heuvel says. "These activity patterns are highly influenced by white-matter structures in the brain, how the brain is connected." Richard Haier and his collaborators are now working on a new method of measuring information flow around the brain using magnetoencephalography, or MEG. MEG measures the magnetic fluctuations around neurons as they fire, allowing scientists to track the millisecond-scale sequence of neural signaling in the brain as people perform different tasks, such as pressing a button in response to a light. Researchers hope to figure out how the flow of these signals differs with intelligence--whether smarter people follow the same sequence but faster, for example, or whether their brains skip a few steps in a circuit. "When you add the timing of the nodes and networks," says Jung, "then we're really talking about how the brain works in real time." Improving IQ If white matter plays a key role in intelligence, is there a way to enhance it? Does it give us ways to make ourselves smarter, or to help people with neurological and psychiatric disorders that affect cognitive skills? It's likely that the quality of white matter is at least partly genetically determined and, therefore, difficult to change. The size of the corpus callosum, the thick tracts of white matter connecting the two hemispheres of the brain, is about 95 percent genetic. And about 85 percent of the white-matter variation in the parietal lobes, which are involved in logic and visual-spatial skills, can be attributed to genetics, according to Thompson. But only about 45 percent of the variation in the temporal lobes, which play a central role in learning and memory, appears to be inherited. Thompson is now trying to identify specific genes that are linked to the quality of white matter. The top candidate so far is a gene for a protein called BDNF, which promotes cell growth. People with one variation have better-organized fibers, he says. But environmental factors also play a role. Rodents raised in a stimulating environment have more white matter. And research suggests that the apparent IQ difference between people who were breast-fed and bottle-fed as babies may arise because breast milk contains omega-3s, fatty acids involved in the production of myelin; as a result, some baby formula now includes these compounds. Hope remains for those who passed the baby-formula stage long ago. Although the adult brain isn't as malleable as a young brain, and is therefore less easily influenced by environmental factors, evidence is growing that the adult brain is still remarkably plastic. Scientists haven't yet studied white matter enough to know how to improve it directly, especially in healthy people. But exercise, diet, and mental activity have all been shown to boost brain health and decrease the risk of dementia, a disorder that has been linked to white-matter damage. And other studies have shown that just a few months of practicing a new skill can enlarge certain parts of the brain, including parts of the frontal cortex involved in motor planning and parts of the temporal lobes that integrate visual, auditory, tactile, and internal physiological information. Similar studies on ways to improve the quality of white matter are under way. Although looking at images of my own white matter was fascinating, it was not deeply illuminating. The scan gave me no indication of how efficient or flexible my mental processes are. And, the researchers told me, not even the most astute neuroanatomist would be able to glean a general sense of my cognitive capabilities from my brain scan. Learning more about the role of white matter in intelligence will give scientists a fuller picture of how brain anatomy influences cognition. It could help explain how differently structured brains might produce the same IQ, or whether particular patterns--thick white matter here, a large chunk of gray matter there--are linked to particular cognitive strengths and weaknesses. "One of the key findings that has come out of the last decade of studies of intelligence is the fact that the brain can generate the same IQ score a number of ways," says Haier. Intelligence is characterized by "individual differences in learning, memory, and attention and how they are integrated in any one individual." Haier envisions a day when brain scans could alert teachers to the cognitive strengths and weaknesses of each student, so that lessons could be individually tailored. It might be possible to derive much the same information from extensive cognitive testing, but such testing is rare because it's expensive and time consuming. A 15-minute brain scan, on the other hand, might be applied much more broadly. Although it's not yet possible to estimate someone's IQ from a brain scan, some scientists say that day may not be far off. "For a very simple example," says Haier, "suppose the total amount of gray matter in several areas is a good correlate of IQ, and this correlation gets better if we add additional scan information--perhaps the amount of white matter in other areas or the amount of activation in certain areas while a problem is solved. We don't yet know which combination of brain parameters will be most predictive of psychometric IQ or other intelligence factors or mental abilities, but we know how to find out. Once funding is available to scan very large samples with multiple techniques and test everyone with a battery of psychometric measures, it's just a matter of time." That could be a boon for physicians working with Alzheimer's patients or others suffering from diseases that cause cognitive damage. Some experts, however, fear it will create the sense that people's abilities are completely predetermined. Scientists working in the field argue that using a brain scan to quantify intelligence is really no different from using a standardized test like the SAT. But because a brain scan measures a physical property, it's likely to arouse even more concern than today's testing methods. "If you can estimate someone's IQ from a brain scan, even if it isn't any more predictive than an SAT [score], it gives the illusion that his or her future is fixed," says Karama. In truth, it's not yet clear that brain scans would be any better than SAT scores at predicting an individual's cognitive function--or success in school, career, or life. Their value will depend on what we do with them. Perhaps, as with the SAT, training courses will be developed to help people improve their scores--to make better use of the network of connections in their brains. Says UCLA's Frew, "It's not just the tool. It's how well we are using it." Emily Singer is Technology Review's senior editor for biomedicine. Copyright Technology Review 2009. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 23:54:55 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:24:55 +1030 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/27 Eugen Leitl : > On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 03:38:06PM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > >> Walking around holding an iPhone in front of you is pretty much wrong, >> however. That space is still on the move. > > Still is. Since 1989, or so. Man, you must be Steve Jobbs best friend, to get your iPhone that early! -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 00:55:20 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:25:20 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Dodgy cam of hitchens/fry debate? Message-ID: <710b78fc0910261755q7551d255y5327e161fbb5e2a7@mail.gmail.com> Anyone know of any footage of this? http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/10/20/catholic-church-humiliated-by-fry-and-hitchens-in-an-historic-london-debate/ -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 27 03:48:49 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:48:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] interactive map of the galapagos In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910261755q7551d255y5327e161fbb5e2a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0910261755q7551d255y5327e161fbb5e2a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31C089CE20944E7CA5012A46782F6CE8@spike> Cool, check this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/beta/evolution/explore-galapagos.html A guide to the islands that inspired Darwin. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 06:00:33 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:30:33 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Global quantum suicide paradise engineering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0910262300p7b599722waff4eee5807d626f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/15 Anders Sandberg : > > I just couldn't resist blogging about the recent rediscovery of the > retrocausal Higgs papers: http://tinyurl.com/ykxxyc6 > "If God hates the Higgs boson, we can build paradise on Earth" > > The nice thing is that I can reuse my old LHC calculations > http://tinyurl.com/3rgjrl > *and* I get a chance to use the term "global quantum suicide paradise > engineering" on my blogg. > > -- > Anders Sandberg, > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University Brilliant Anders, really lovely article. And now I finally understand why ABBA can never reform, no matter how hard fans try. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From eugen at leitl.org Tue Oct 27 07:30:24 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:30:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:24:55AM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > >> Walking around holding an iPhone in front of you is pretty much wrong, > >> however. That space is still on the move. > > > > Still is. Since 1989, or so. > > Man, you must be Steve Jobbs best friend, to get your iPhone that early! You see, holding a gadget with your hand, while peering down at the tiny screen is seriously backwards. We haven't been that backwards for a loooong time http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/timeline.html I picked 1989 because of http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/timeline.html#1989 -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 00:06:54 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:36:54 +1030 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/27 Eugen Leitl : > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:24:55AM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > >> >> Walking around holding an iPhone in front of you is pretty much wrong, >> >> however. That space is still on the move. >> > >> > Still is. Since 1989, or so. >> >> Man, you must be Steve Jobbs best friend, to get your iPhone that early! > > You see, holding a gadget with your hand, while peering down at > the tiny screen is seriously backwards. We haven't been that > backwards for a loooong time > > ? ? ? ?http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/timeline.html > > I picked 1989 because of http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/timeline.html#1989 > It is ridiculous that we don't have HMDs. To be fair, I think the problem's been quality; the stuff the wearables people have been cool with has been chunky and low res. Also, making input intuitive has never been resolved satisfactorily. So it's always been in the realm of something us geeky types would do and appreciate, but would never hit the mainstream. The iPhone augmented reality is totally wrong, I agree, but it's a step along the path of mass adoption. Regular people are just coming to terms with carrying a powerful general purpose computer around with them; phones have been powerful for a while, but people have never really understood them as computers, just as flashy phones, until recently. So, you've got to give the great unwashed time to process the idea of the powerful general purpose device that they have always on them. The hopelessness of the UI of that device (beautiful though it is), will become more and more apparent, and solutions to that, like HMDs, probably including project natal type technology, should start to emerge in a real way. In the meantime, anyone know of any decent, reasonably priced HMDs that could be a usable replacement for a desktop monitor? It could be one that blocks out all vision. I've been struggling with shoulder and neck issues due to overuse of computers generally, and I suspect it's largely due to holding myself stationary for extended (extended...) periods. I know you're supposed to get up and move around and all that, great in theory. I'm wondering if an HMD might help, in that there's no reason you need be so stationary if the screen is strapped to your face. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Oct 28 00:58:22 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:58:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE7972E.1090401@satx.rr.com> On 10/27/2009 7:06 PM, Emlyn wrote: > I'm wondering if an HMD might help, in that > there's no reason you need be so stationary if the screen is strapped > to your face. Move too much and you'll get motion sickness unless the display is very clever and takes account of your position/orientation. Or maybe you'll get used to it. I'm pretty sure I'd be puking into the helmet. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Oct 28 03:30:32 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:30:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a dumb question about scanners etc Message-ID: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> See, I recently had a bunch of stuff shipped to me from Australia to the US, including a CanoScan 0646Uex scanner and an old Zip drive, together with their useless transformers that are designed to turn 240 volt 50 Hz something-amp wall current into (in the case of the scanner) DC12V. The plugs are all twisty and wrong for the US mains, and I wonder whether I can easily and cheaply get hold of a US transformer or two that will do the job of running a thing designed for Oz powerlines. Or an adapter that will plug into the wall and accept this Aussie transformer up the wazzoo and still work. I don't have any easy way to reach the local nerd stores, or I'd be pitiful in front of a saleshuman. Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 03:59:42 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:29:42 +1030 Subject: [ExI] a dumb question about scanners etc In-Reply-To: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/28 Damien Broderick : > See, I recently had a bunch of stuff shipped to me from Australia to the US, > including a CanoScan 0646Uex scanner and an old Zip drive, together with > their useless transformers that are designed to turn 240 volt 50 Hz > something-amp wall current into (in the case of the scanner) DC12V. The > plugs are all twisty and wrong for the US mains, and I wonder whether I can > easily and cheaply get hold of a US transformer or two that will do the job > of running a thing designed for Oz powerlines. Or an adapter that will plug > into the wall and accept this Aussie transformer up the wazzoo and still > work. I don't have any easy way to reach the local nerd stores, or I'd be > pitiful in front of a saleshuman. I don't know about transformers. However, Scanners are no longer something you'd pay real money for. I know in Oz, they're very hard to buy on their own; what you do is buy a printer/scanner combo, for $100 to $200, and you get a great scanner. Is it really worth keeping the old scanner going? eg: do you even know you can still make it work for your current PC setup? I threw out an old scanner a while back because it used a parallel port, and I just couldn't make it work any longer (no parallel port, and even if I had one, no drivers). -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Oct 28 04:07:45 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:07:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a dumb question about scanners etc In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE7C391.9090506@satx.rr.com> On 10/27/2009 10:59 PM, Emlyn wrote: > Is it really worth keeping the > old scanner going? eg: do you even know you can still make it work for > your current PC setup? I threw out an old scanner a while back because > it used a parallel port, and I just couldn't make it work any longer > (no parallel port, and even if I had one, no drivers). Yeah, good points. Dog nose, a new one only costs about $80. From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 28 04:09:29 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:09:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] possible solution to global climate change In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Be sure to remember the change is this weekend, at 0200 Sunday morning. During daylight savings time it is global warming, but after this weekend until next spring, it is global climate change. Check out this article from the Wall Street Journal. Global warming might be solved with a helium balloon and a few miles of garden hose. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704335904574495643459234318.ht ml spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 28 04:39:23 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:39:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] boston dynamics petman In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B3115082A0B45E2AD925842FD858E72@spike> Oh my goodness, is this wicked cool or what? Can anyone fail to see what this could be used for? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=08e_1256601203 spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 28 05:00:02 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:00:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stretching the pandora concept In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467EC704477443C4871FCD90EA2F185D@spike> An interesting aspect of Pandora is that the music selections it chooses converges, regardless of which music group one starts with. I started one with James Taylor and another one with Abba, and eventually, after I thumbs upped and thumbs downed a few dozen selections, it converged on remarkably similar collections of music, even with wildly dissimilar starting points. So if one knew nothing about any music, and only voted up or down, Pandora could perhaps eventually find good material suited to ones taste. So, could not this concept be expanded? Is there something analogous to Pandora in the literature world? How about in art? In pornography? spike From eugen at leitl.org Wed Oct 28 10:14:04 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:14:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:36:54AM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > It is ridiculous that we don't have HMDs. To be fair, I think the Absolutely. Especially, since we don't have them anymore. There used to be commercial products one could buy. No longer. > problem's been quality; the stuff the wearables people have been cool > with has been chunky and low res. Also, making input intuitive has You don't need more than 640x480 to be usable. I would not have called http://www.cc.gatech.edu/ccg/publications/starner-phd/#918 chunk, in fact, as a mirroshade it's not recognizable as a HUD. > never been resolved satisfactorily. So it's always been in the realm See the Twiddler right at above URL. Yes, you can't buy one either. You cannot also board a civil supersonic flight, or go to the Moon. > of something us geeky types would do and appreciate, but would never > hit the mainstream. This has nothing to do with geeks. Hands-free navigation, military, repair technicians, multimedia, VR/AR (another technology gone the way of the dodo) are all straightforward application profiles. > The iPhone augmented reality is totally wrong, I agree, but it's a > step along the path of mass adoption. Regular people are just coming > to terms with carrying a powerful general purpose computer around with > them; phones have been powerful for a while, but people have never > really understood them as computers, just as flashy phones, until > recently. But why must mass adoption take 15 years? It makes one wonder, doesn't it. > So, you've got to give the great unwashed time to process the idea of > the powerful general purpose device that they have always on them. The > hopelessness of the UI of that device (beautiful though it is), will > become more and more apparent, and solutions to that, like HMDs, > probably including project natal type technology, should start to Machine vision on video input is nothing new. Of course having cheap 3d info in realtime is neat, assuming we'll ever get to that. > emerge in a real way. > > In the meantime, anyone know of any decent, reasonably priced HMDs > that could be a usable replacement for a desktop monitor? It could be Nope. It would be trivial to do with today's LCDs or OLEDs, especially given that you can print OLEDs on curved surfaces and you can do nonlinear mirror optics, but nope. > one that blocks out all vision. I've been struggling with shoulder and > neck issues due to overuse of computers generally, and I suspect it's > largely due to holding myself stationary for extended (extended...) Try something like http://www.swopper.com/ (there are cheap clones around, some using inflatable rubber tires as base). Do not spend more than 1 h on it initially, slowly upping up the time. > periods. I know you're supposed to get up and move around and all > that, great in theory. I'm wondering if an HMD might help, in that > there's no reason you need be so stationary if the screen is strapped > to your face. Another option might be using a video projector, and a reclining chair. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From ddraig at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 13:49:08 2009 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:49:08 +1100 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> Message-ID: 2009/10/28 Eugen Leitl : > Another option might be using a video projector, and a reclining chair. Or use a giant TV as a monitor. I'm reading this on a 42" LCD tv at the moment. Works great once you change the font sizes in every single thing you use. I'm actually pretty impressed with this, although I feel guilty every time I use it. But it uses far less power than my 27" CRT monitor, so it will do for the moment. Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 16:33:36 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:33:36 -0200 Subject: [ExI] boston dynamics petman References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com><710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> <5B3115082A0B45E2AD925842FD858E72@spike> Message-ID: <6286683A20514AF8841266C4C39F75A6@Notebook> Way way cooler than Asimo. ----- Original Message ----- From: "spike" Wednesday, October 28, 2009 2:39 AM [ExI] boston dynamics petman > Oh my goodness, is this wicked cool or what? Can anyone fail to see what > this could be used for? > > http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=08e_1256601203 From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Oct 28 20:36:23 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:36:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?iso-8859-1?q?Art/Design_Re=3A_=C9lan_Vital_and_Radical_Li?= =?iso-8859-1?q?fe=09Extension?= Message-ID: <20091028163623.dewtzcub3ko808wc@webmail.natasha.cc> Hi - In looking for a philosophical/theoretical "aesthetics of existence (or radical life extension), Henri Bergson?s ?lan vital[1] (/Creative Evolution/[2]?1907) comes close, not only in a poetic sense but in regards to the continuum of life/existence (which many of us think will transform from wet bio to synthetic media/platforms). Mechanist theory[3] makes sense for design purposes (telos); but it is the ?lan vital that has a certain poiesis that forms an affinity with the arts.? The theory of ?lan vital offers potential to the artist (and in some instances the designer who employs an intuitive approach to product-making) in considering existence as fluid and transformative (i.e., Burnham?s book Beyond Modern Sculpture[4]?1968), and which finds links between ?lan vital and the art of sculpture as developed in the media of computer art, kinetics art, installation art, animation art, immersive design, etc. (those art forms which are not considered to be visually constant like marble or wood.) Because?Primo Posthuman[5] or (?Primo Posthuman[6]?) is both art and design (i.e., it is an artistic conception of the imagination and which has a purpose/function/goal), I am asking:? Does anyone have a view on how new advances and greater insights/knowledge into existence in science/technology (molecular biology, for example), might revisit Henri Bergson?s theory of ?lan vital? Best, Natasha NVM[7] Links: ------ [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_vital [2] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0217814433/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0486400360&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1T92SRVHZ63P5E48GKYJ [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_(philosophy) [4] http://www.sculpture.org:16080/documents/scmag99/jan99/burnham/sm-burnh.shtml [5] http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0405.html?printable=1 [6] http://www.natasha.cc/primo.htm [7] http://www.natasha.cc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Oct 28 22:15:15 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:15:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] good Simon Singh news, sort of Message-ID: <4AE8C273.1060901@satx.rr.com> I read on some blog: A victory for Simon Singh October 16, 2009 Simon-Singh-002Science writer Simon Singh has won a victory in his chiropractic libel battle! From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 00:06:31 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:36:31 +1030 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910281706t7688f74bl61f954a0da5a1cbc@mail.gmail.com> >> periods. I know you're supposed to get up and move around and all >> that, great in theory. I'm wondering if an HMD might help, in that >> there's no reason you need be so stationary if the screen is strapped >> to your face. > > Another option might be using a video projector, and a reclining chair. I don't think so; my thinking is that the problem is that the display is fixed, thus requiring you to also be fixed still in order to look at it. It needs to be attached to your head so that you can move your head around (slightly, as is a natural thing to do), and the display stays in the same place relative to your eyes. So maybe if the projector was a giant projector hat, but I suspect that might cause other neck problems :-) -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 01:29:02 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:59:02 +1030 Subject: [ExI] stretching the pandora concept In-Reply-To: <467EC704477443C4871FCD90EA2F185D@spike> References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> <467EC704477443C4871FCD90EA2F185D@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910281829v69181349wc310a70029bbd04e@mail.gmail.com> > So, could not this concept be expanded? ?Is there something analogous to > Pandora in the literature world? Amazon > How about in art? Not sure But see also Netflix for movies, and I'm guessing iTunes also does this for music (I don't use it). The netflix prize: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix_Prize On the general concept, this is the realm of Crowdsourcing. Lots of fun links here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Crowdsourcing I've found it interesting that the various transhuman lists haven't been hotter on the various crowdsourcing developments. To my mind, it's a really interesting alternative style of bottom-up organisation to the traditional market. There is the possibility here of a way of fulfilling the extropian principles, for instance, without market capitalism being front and center. > In pornography? err, I think this is more about quantity... -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 29 02:17:38 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:17:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] aaahnold's hidden message Message-ID: The Taxifornia governator has been accused of sending an obscene message to his political opponents in the form of a seven letters which start each line of his memo. He is claiming a coincidence, but the local news calculated it at 8 billion to 1, by taking 26^7. I noticed that the C is a scrabble three point letter, the F and the Y are all worth four points and the K is a five pointer. So I grabbed a huge hunk of text, wrote a script to calculate letter frequencies starting a sentence and came out with about 1 in 600 billion that this was a coincidence, and this doesn't even take into account the space being in the right place: http://www.sfbg.com/blogs/politics/2009/10/arnold_to_sf_fuck_you.html spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Thu Oct 29 07:32:05 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:32:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910281706t7688f74bl61f954a0da5a1cbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910281706t7688f74bl61f954a0da5a1cbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091029073205.GF17686@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 10:36:31AM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > > Another option might be using a video projector, and a reclining chair. > > I don't think so; my thinking is that the problem is that the display > is fixed, thus requiring you to also be fixed still in order to look Have you tried using larger screens (24"-30") from a longer viewing distance? I personally find a triple-screen setup (24" with two 19"-23" by the side) optimal. > at it. It needs to be attached to your head so that you can move your > head around (slightly, as is a natural thing to do), and the display > stays in the same place relative to your eyes. So maybe if the Such displays are best if immersive, and providing a synthetic reality synchronized via a head tracker. > projector was a giant projector hat, but I suspect that might cause > other neck problems :-) How about programming a timer to take periodic breaks? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From eugen at leitl.org Thu Oct 29 09:24:05 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:24:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] stretching the pandora concept In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0910281829v69181349wc310a70029bbd04e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AE7BAD8.3080900@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0910272059w6379f212udd6140e6cd9418ab@mail.gmail.com> <467EC704477443C4871FCD90EA2F185D@spike> <710b78fc0910281829v69181349wc310a70029bbd04e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091029092405.GM17686@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:59:02AM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > I've found it interesting that the various transhuman lists haven't > been hotter on the various crowdsourcing developments. To my mind, Most of the action happens elsewhere these day. Plus, email is pretty much dead in 2009. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From clausb at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 12:48:51 2009 From: clausb at gmail.com (Claus Bornich) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:48:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] aaahnold's hidden message Message-ID: -----Original Message by spike----- >>The Taxifornia governator has been accused of sending an obscene message to >>his political opponents in the form of a seven letters which start each line >>of his memo.? He is claiming a coincidence, but the local news calculated it >>at 8 billion to 1, by taking 26^7. >>I noticed that the C is a scrabble three point letter, the F and the Y are >>all worth four points and the K is a five pointer.? So I grabbed a huge hunk >>of text, wrote a script to calculate letter frequencies starting a sentence >>and came out with about 1 in 600 billion that this was a coincidence, and >>this doesn't even take into account the space being in the right place: Spike, Isn't this exactly the sort of flawed argument which creationists and the anti-evolution crowd use? I'm sure the probability of humans evolving is a lot smaller than your above estimates. Even the odds for many of the tiny incremental steps towards what we are today are pretty astronomical. Yet, I think we all agree that they did happen. Each mutation is random and although only results which improve the chances of survival are selected for it was surely anything but inevitable that we ended up with two legged, big brained monkeys with hands suited to make tools and vocal cords capable of complex speech. Not to mention that any probability calculation is only as good as the accuracy and completeness of the data, as well as the level of understanding of how that data interacts. When you look at the probability of any one thing in particular occurring it seems very unlikely. Probabilities are great for predicting odds, but tell us very little about what actually occurs. Rolling a six on a die a hundred times in a row is very unlikely, but not impossible. I don't really care either way about Arnold's message, but if you start looking for patterns you will find them everywhere. Claus From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 13:48:18 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 00:18:18 +1030 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <20091029073205.GF17686@leitl.org> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910281706t7688f74bl61f954a0da5a1cbc@mail.gmail.com> <20091029073205.GF17686@leitl.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc0910290648r514ee758wc6c2da7a62d17a6e@mail.gmail.com> Eugen wrote: >> projector was a giant projector hat, but I suspect that might cause >> other neck problems :-) > > How about programming a timer to take periodic breaks? You're... one of them! Nooooooooo...... -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 15:15:31 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:15:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 10/28/09, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Absolutely. Especially, since we don't have them anymore. > There used to be commercial products one could buy. No longer. > > Really?? A google shopping search for head mounted display products gives 10252 hits. BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 29 15:08:47 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:08:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] aaahnold's hidden message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89C2DE8DACA84AB78564DED12D15D2E4@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Claus Bornich .... > Subject: [ExI] aaahnold's hidden message .... > >>the local news calculated it at 8 billion to 1, by taking 26^7. > > >>I ...wrote a script to calculate letter frequencies > >>starting a sentence and came out with about 1 in 600 > billion that this was a coincidence... > Spike, > > Isn't this exactly the sort of flawed argument which > creationists and the anti-evolution crowd use?... Hmmm, well close I suppose, but be careful to not strain the analogy too far. Lifeforms do things with chemical processes that boggle the mind. The whole regeneration thing for instance, is so very amazing. > ...I don't really care either way > about Arnold's message, but if you start looking for patterns > you will find them everywhere. > > Claus I enclosed the text for your entertainment. I have no dog in this fight. Well actually I do, being a Taxifornia resident, and seeing the state become a slow motion train wreck. In any case, look at the enclosure, see what you think. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blog_Schwarzenegger_Veto[1].jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 49500 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Thu Oct 29 15:46:07 2009 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:46:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "Augmented Reality" in Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: References: <200910231444.n9NEieMm023529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <710b78fc0910232208k740373eds1d1f1a08c02340d4@mail.gmail.com> <20091026134919.GU27331@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910261654o10b1588qda1d131ef1980605@mail.gmail.com> <20091027073024.GN17686@leitl.org> <710b78fc0910271706pc1abc8cjac7c41126bc1eafa@mail.gmail.com> <20091028101404.GO17686@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20091029154607.GL17686@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 03:15:31PM +0000, BillK wrote: > Really?? A google shopping search for head mounted display products > gives 10252 hits. > > All of those are for two products, none of them a practical HUD like MicroOptical used to make. http://www.google.com/products?q=head-up+display+products&aq=f gives less hits, of which even less are usable. Does this suck, or what? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 29 22:27:29 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:27:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Larry Johnson book on Amazon - VOTE Message-ID: <20091029182729.o1wd6d2mo88cscss@webmail.natasha.cc> Friends, Please vote at Amazon by giving Melody Maxim's pro-Larry Johnson review a "no" for helpfulness. Please give a "yes" to Charles Platt or other comments that say not to buy the book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product-reviews/1593155603/ Thank you! Natasha -------------- next part -------------- See forwarded message below. Mathew On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Ben Best [PRIVATE] wrote: > Johnson's powerful marketing is not neglecting > Amazon. A recent review "Frozen to the book" > shot to 'most helpful" with 3 of 3 people saying > that the review was helpful. Now it is 3 of 4 > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product-reviews/1593155603/ > > Please click on the no button for helpfulness > to lower the "helpful" status Unfortunately, this has pushed Melody Maxim's review to the top spot. There needs to me more "no" votes for hers as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Advisors mailing list Advisors at alcor.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/advisors From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 23:46:50 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:46:50 +1100 Subject: [ExI] aaahnold's hidden message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2009/10/29 Claus Bornich : > -----Original Message by spike----- >>>The Taxifornia governator has been accused of sending an obscene message to >>>his political opponents in the form of a seven letters which start each line >>>of his memo.? He is claiming a coincidence, but the local news calculated it >>>at 8 billion to 1, by taking 26^7. > >>>I noticed that the C is a scrabble three point letter, the F and the Y are >>>all worth four points and the K is a five pointer.? So I grabbed a huge hunk >>>of text, wrote a script to calculate letter frequencies starting a sentence >>>and came out with about 1 in 600 billion that this was a coincidence, and >>>this doesn't even take into account the space being in the right place: > > Spike, > > Isn't this exactly the sort of flawed argument which creationists and > the anti-evolution crowd use? I'm sure the probability of humans > evolving is a lot smaller than your above estimates. Even the odds for > many of the tiny incremental steps towards what we are today are > pretty astronomical. Yet, I think we all agree that they did happen. > Each mutation is random and although only results which improve the > chances of survival are selected for it was surely anything but > inevitable that we ended up with two legged, big brained monkeys with > hands suited to make tools and vocal cords capable of complex speech. > Not to mention that any probability calculation is only as good as the > accuracy and completeness of the data, as well as the level of > understanding of how that data interacts. > > When you look at the probability of any one thing in particular > occurring it seems very unlikely. Probabilities are great for > predicting odds, but tell us very little about what actually occurs. > Rolling a six on a die a hundred times in a row is very unlikely, but > not impossible. I don't really care either way about Arnold's message, > but if you start looking for patterns you will find them everywhere. The probability of any *particular* configuration of the Universe coming about may be incredibly small, but the probability that the Universe will be in *some* configuration may approach one. For example, there may be a very high probability that intelligent life evolves at least once somewhere in the Universe, even though the intelligent life thus evolved may calculate their particular existence on their particular planet as being extremely unlikely. It is different if the unlikely event is pre-specified. If a series of stars went nova so as to spell out "I am the Lord your God, so fuck you, atheists" then I would have to admit that something unusual was going on. -- Stathis Papaioannou From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 30 00:27:12 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:27:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] aaahnold's hidden message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <372DD80643064BAE890E037E6CB196E7@spike> .... > > Rolling a six on a die a hundred times in a row is very > unlikely, but > > not impossible. I don't really care either way about > Arnold's message, > > but if you start looking for patterns you will find them everywhere. > > The probability of any *particular* configuration of the > Universe coming about may be incredibly small, but the > probability that the Universe will be in *some* configuration > may approach one... Ja! Using Claus' notion, the odds of rolling a 6 a hundred times in a row is astronomically small, (about 1 in 10^78). But one could take 100 dice in a cup and spill them out on the table. Regardless of the chaotic outcome, the odds of that particular outcome is equal to the odds of them all coming up 6. The sum of the odds of all possible outcomes is still 1. The odds of a particular easily recognizable pattern is very small. .... > > It is different if the unlikely event is pre-specified. If a > series of stars went nova so as to spell out "I am the Lord > your God, so fuck you, atheists" then I would have to admit > that something unusual was going on... Stathis Papaioannou Here is how one can tell the difference between a typical extropian type person versus pretty much all normal people in the world. In the event that the novae spelled out such a message as Stathis describes above, the normal people would immediately conclude there is a supreme being and fervently worship accordingly. We extro and transhumanist types, on the other hand, would have an alternate explanation. We would conclude that it isn't necessarily a supreme being exactly, but rather that we are all simulations (or at least I am, you guys may be avatars), and that the not-necessarily-supreme programmer has a sense of humor. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 19:32:30 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:32:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] aaahnold's hidden message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d6187670910301232h781e7c98hbc839f3cccdc30a7@mail.gmail.com> Spike, Arnold should appoint you his administration's official mathematician/statistician and all-around science p.r. man! You could do a Bill Nye the Science Guy-style press conference once a week for the proles of Taxifornia! And for Halloween I want to see you costumed as a stem cell. John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asyluman at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 23:31:38 2009 From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:31:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] syllogistic units and other stuff Message-ID: I don't know if there is a teen physics phase or something with this kind of questioning or if the modern physics worldview really is too complicated (it is, right?), but I have been thinking: Some physical units seem to exist only as a bridge between concepts. Mass affects the curvature of spacetime. Right now people are trying to find a cause for mass and are doing the Higgs stuff, where they create concepts in a logistically wrong order--affirming the consequent and all--that leading to new concepts that a) work experimentally and b) work mathematically. But think about whether mass is really anything other than a metaphor for spatial curvature; imagine a paradigm where, instead of the syllogistic "matter>mass>curvature" concept, we instead break the causation into as little representation and as much truth as possible. Then you can start thinking about quantities like time as literally a fourth spatial dimension (given pure causality) and kinematics of an object as related to its d(spatial curvature/)d(causal distance). Then I started to think about fundamentality and what's derived and what isn't. Work is force applied over distance. Doesn't this mean that it is another syllogism? That the application of vectors leads to hypothetical scalars (all scalars)? Is the fact that vectors have indices and scalars none some measure of the "reality" of a quality, or is this simple a different way to look at physics in the same tautological snafu that is the observer effect or relativity or the inexistence of "correct" units of measurement? I feel intuition leading me here and I know all the a priori hate out there (i.e. for the past many centuries) because it's totally contra to the empricisist's physical world but a real physicalist can see that the existence of the brain as physical leads to actual refinement of universal ideas because of that anchor in reality. So far I have a bit of sketchy math worked out. I saw an ant crawling around and wondered why, since the ant has a mass related to curvature in space that fits in some ratio k to mine, and since the ant occupies a space in some ratio j to mine, and thereforce since there is a ratio w proportional to k and to j that relates the ant and I, why is it that the human seems greater, more progressed? Am I wrong in giving significance to that progress? What about introducing a measure of causal power or universal significance where U of a system in a space is equal to the sum of total distances (spatial and what we see as temporal) from other distances in that space; in other words, a measure of the instantaneous causal significance of the system? Perhaps this allows for fine ratios. Maybe I'm too disorganized and naive to do this. Maybe I use too many rhetorical questions and em-dashes. Seriously though, what do you all think? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: