From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 03:09:02 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:09:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime Message-ID: <2d6187670908312009n6ee875dar91232184e144802@mail.gmail.com> A friend sent this to me and I decided to pass it on here. I realize it may seem "off-topic" but if it stops one person from getting hurt then it's worth sharing. And while the advice may be more for women then men, I think both sexes could benefit from what is stated. John Grigg 10 CRUCIAL TIPS FOR AVOIDING ABDUCTIONS 1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do : The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do! 2.. Learned this from a tourist guide. If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you.... Chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you, and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION! 3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy.. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives. 4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their chequebook, or making a list, etc. DON'T DO THIS!) The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head,and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR , LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.. If someone is in the car with a gun to your head DO NOT DRIVE OFF, Repeat: DO NOT DRIVE OFF! Instead gun the engine and speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will save you. If the person is in the back seat they will get the worst of it . As soon as the car crashes bail out and run. It is better than having them find your body in a remote location. 5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage: A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor , and in the back seat B.) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars. C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side... If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.) 6. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!) 7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably in a zig -zag pattern! 8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked 'for help' into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim. 9. Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch the night before last, and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird.. The police told her " Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door..' The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would crawl to the street and get run over. The policeman said, 'We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door.' He told her that they think a serial killer has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby. He said they have not verified it, but have had several calls by women saying that they hear baby's cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night. 10. Water scam! If you wake up in the middleof the night to hear all your taps outside running or what you think is aburst pipe, DO NOT GO OUT TO INVESTIGATE! These people turn on all your outside taps full ball so that you will go out to investigate and then attack. Stay alert, keep safe, and look out for your neighbours! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Sep 1 04:13:17 2009 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 21:13:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Me again : ) In-Reply-To: <7273E03196ED4219AA871870E7398592@3DBOXXW4850> References: <4A948BFC.5070003@satx.rr.com> <2d6187670908252249w45b716a9g3f3c8740760b9010@mail.gmail.com><4A94D13C.50408@satx.rr.com><4A94D344.1060900@satx.rr.com> <82DEDCED6DD742EAAB04F5EA913096FC@3DBOXXW4850><4A967E23.8040808@canonizer.com><0962C87C187F48ED89AF3305E9F5C49B@3DBOXXW4850><623729E857AE49E5BCDF4765B2D179DC@3DBOXXW4850> <7273E03196ED4219AA871870E7398592@3DBOXXW4850> Message-ID: <3ABC563637EB41DFA30FE0B8DD4A3B0C@3DBOXXW4850> My video did not make it into the weekly semi finalist, but, you still can vote for me to win the community challenge - by going to http://www.youtube.com/hp then clicking the view + vote tab, but this time, click the "community award" tab (on top of the videos /left side). Then to find my video, you should see a search box on top of the videos on the right, put in "Who Am I" then you'll see me (black dress blonde pony tail). It's a long shot - we would need a lot of votes - but it might be worth a try - you can vote once a day through Sept 13. Thank you so much - you are all so very, very kind! The HP contest rules: http://tiny.cc/qYsBA Gina~ nanogirl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gina Miller" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) > Today is the last day to vote for me everyone! > http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/2009/08/you-can-help-me-win.html > > I want to thank those who are helping me with their votes, THANK YOU!!!! > Gina "Nanogirl" Miller > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gina Miller" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:10 PM > Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) > > >> We've got today and tomorrow left to vote for my animation: >> http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/2009/08/you-can-help-me-win.html >> Thank you everyone who is helping! >> Gina >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gina Miller" >> To: "ExI chat list" >> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:55 AM >> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >> >> >>> Don't forget to vote for my animation again today, thank you my >>> friends - from the bottom of my heart. >>> http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/2009/08/you-can-help-me-win.html >>> Gina >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Gina Miller" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:33 PM >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >>> >>> >>>> Brent, no I don't see a way to view the current status either! Do you >>>> want >>>> me to put a reminder up here everyday? If so I can do that... I want to >>>> thank you for taking the time out to support me. Yours, Gina >>>> www.nanogirl.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brent Allsop" >>>> To: "ExI chat list" >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 5:37 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Gina, >>>>> >>>>> I didn't see any way to see scores, or how each video was doing. Is >>>>> this >>>>> info available? >>>>> >>>>> I'll try to remember to vote each day till Sunday, as the rules allow. >>>>> Wish I would have voted yesterday. >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gina Miller wrote: >>>>>> Thank you so much Natasha! I really appreciate your support : ) >>>>>> Gina >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Natasha Vita-More" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'ExI chat list'" >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:59 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Done! (Nice work Gina.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gina >>>>>>> Miller >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:21 AM >>>>>>> To: ExI chat list >>>>>>> Subject: [ExI] Me again : ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm so excited! My animation has been selected by Hewlett Packard as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> semi >>>>>>> finalist, but to make it as a finalist, I need your votes! You need >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> registered at youtube (which is free) >>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/create_account >>>>>>> then make sure you are signed in and go to >>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/hp - >>>>>>> (to >>>>>>> make sure you are signed in look at the very right top corner of >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> page >>>>>>> to see your user name.) Then up at the top you will see a row of >>>>>>> blue >>>>>>> tabs, >>>>>>> click the "view + vote" tab, you will see my video there among >>>>>>> others. I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> wearing a black dress with my blonde pony tail down the front of me, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> video is called "Who Am I". Click this picture icon to see my video. >>>>>>> It >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> video about my being a computer animator. After my video pops up you >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> see on the right side of it that there is a thumbs up and a thumbs >>>>>>> down, >>>>>>> thumbs up is what you want to click to give me your vote. You are >>>>>>> allowed to >>>>>>> vote one time a day, all the way through (and including) Sunday. >>>>>>> However >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> are not allowed to vote more than once a day as it is against the >>>>>>> rules. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> please feel free to spread the word to your friends and family as >>>>>>> every >>>>>>> vote >>>>>>> counts! The prize is 40 thousand dollars and considering my current >>>>>>> financial situation you can imagine this would be a wonderful prize >>>>>>> indeed. >>>>>>> Please vote for me every day and I thank you so kindly for it. Thank >>>>>>> you, >>>>>>> thank you, thank you so very much!!! I appreciate my fellow >>>>>>> extropians >>>>>>> always supporting me lo these many years. Yours, Gina "Nanogirl" >>>>>>> Miller >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gina "Nanogirl" Miller >>>>>>> Nanotechnology Industries >>>>>>> http://www.nanoindustries.com >>>>>>> Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com >>>>>>> Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: >>>>>>> http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Senior Associate >>>>>>> http://www.foresight.org >>>>>>> Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com >>>>>>> "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 08:46:25 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:46:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: <2d6187670908312009n6ee875dar91232184e144802@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670908312009n6ee875dar91232184e144802@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/1/09, John Grigg wrote: > A friend sent this to me and I decided to pass it on here. I realize it may > seem "off-topic" but if it stops one person from getting hurt then it's > worth sharing. And while the advice may be more for women then men, I think > both sexes could benefit from what is stated. > John When helpful 'friends' copy these email chain letters to you, you should ALWAYS check with snopes.com first. This one has been going round since about 2001 and is intended to cause a state of fear in the recipient. >From snopes: The world is not awash with rapists, murderers, thieves, and kidnappers, but a bit of common sense routinely applied can help you avoid meeting up with any of the handful that are actually out there. Rather than fret about how to properly throw an elbow, or whether you should run from someone holding a gun on you, or how to crash a car into a barrier so as to incapacitate an attacker but leave yourself unharmed, learn these three tips by heart: Keep away from deserted places, stay alert to what is going on around you, and when something feels the slightest bit wrong, get out of there. While there's nothing of Lynda Carter or Steven Seagal in those three tips, they will serve to keep you out of a pine box far better than all the more flashy "saw it on the Lifetime Movie of the Week" moves put together. --------------- BillK From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 1 15:39:13 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:39:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: <2d6187670908312009n6ee875dar91232184e144802@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670908312009n6ee875dar91232184e144802@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3983971FACFF432E84A1C2D1888A4C90@DFC68LF1> Posts like this are not off topic John. It helps to remind us to pay attention to our surroundings and the unexpected. (Just don't post about airline miles - even if the purpose of your trip is to give a keynote on transhumanism. :-) I'm only kidding. I'll give you all my miles if you were to do this!) Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:09 PM To: ExI chat list; World Transhumanist Association Discussion List; transhuman_space at yahoogroups.com; SciFi_Discussion Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime A friend sent this to me and I decided to pass it on here. I realize it may seem "off-topic" but if it stops one person from getting hurt then it's worth sharing. And while the advice may be more for women then men, I think both sexes could benefit from what is stated. John Grigg 10 CRUCIAL TIPS FOR AVOIDING ABDUCTIONS 1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do : The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do! 2.. Learned this from a tourist guide. If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you.... Chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you, and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION! 3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy.. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives. 4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their chequebook, or making a list, etc. DON'T DO THIS!) The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head,and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR , LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.. If someone is in the car with a gun to your head DO NOT DRIVE OFF, Repeat: DO NOT DRIVE OFF! Instead gun the engine and speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will save you. If the person is in the back seat they will get the worst of it . As soon as the car crashes bail out and run. It is better than having them find your body in a remote location. 5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage: A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor , and in the back seat B.) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars. C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side... If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.) 6. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!) 7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably in a zig -zag pattern! 8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked 'for help' into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim. 9. Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch the night before last, and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird.. The police told her " Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door..' The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would crawl to the street and get run over. The policeman said, 'We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door.' He told her that they think a serial killer has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby. He said they have not verified it, but have had several calls by women saying that they hear baby's cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night. 10. Water scam! If you wake up in the middleof the night to hear all your taps outside running or what you think is aburst pipe, DO NOT GO OUT TO INVESTIGATE! These people turn on all your outside taps full ball so that you will go out to investigate and then attack. Stay alert, keep safe, and look out for your neighbours! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Sep 1 19:15:03 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 21:15:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress In-Reply-To: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A9D72B7.800@libero.it> Post Futurist ha scritto: > Vietnam? so many thousands of ex-'Nam soldiers are in pain; and who was > it Repuglicans ran for potus less than a year ago? a gung ho 'Nam > vet-- over 33 years after the war ended. The Vietnam war is NOT over. > And we're also in another war. Thousands of casualties stateside. > Constructivism is no longer a threat in schools, now deconstructionists > have much more latitude, not that their teaching can be termed 'morally > relativistic'; technically there is no longer any morality, > only situational ethics. Does cause exist for optimism? yes, for 12-16 > students. Unfortunately, K-12 students are a captive audience, they > can't turn to the 'private sector' for guidance because their families > and peers are just as clueless. > > > > From: Post Futurist > Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 4:14 PM > > "And leaving politics aside, the *real* stresses of > daily life for almost everyone have nothing at all > to do with those ancient wars or their after-effects." > Nothing at all?? > BTW it wasn't a direct linkage-- needless (unless in public schools) > to say, conditions are different 1500- 2000 years later. The post > wasn't to even remotely suggest we'll be destroyed as the Roman > Empire was; but when we get to the point that so many are > celebrating Michael Jackson and Ted Kennedy as some sort of role > models(!), that is quite a stretch. Is it absolutely unreasonable to > infer we're devoid of at least conventional morality? Can we say > we're just making the rules up as we go along? I don't know and it > is disturbing you wizards almost certainly don't have a clue as to > today's morality (or lack thereof) and what is to come. The tunes > are being played by ear. > Schools were somewhat better during the '50s and '60s, and probably > during the '40s as well. I can't stand to speak to youths today; the > slop teechurs are pouring into their minds. > It's not at all encouraging that 100 years after 1909, government is > still so corrupt. And now such as auto companies can join in for the > fun. > Correct, Lee, we're not nearly at war in labor disputes as was the > case in 1909; no, instead over a $ trillion, plus hidden costs, > we're-- are-- spent on an external war that will go on for so > long who in their right mind wants to think about it? How much spent > on law enforcers, courts, prisons, battered families, costly > litigation? and all that jazz... > Different from 1909? yes. Better? maybe. I don't know, and it makes > me nervous none of you know, either. It is a photo that hasn't been > developed yet. > > > --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Lee Corbin //* wrote: > > > From: Lee Corbin > Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress > To: "ExI chat list" > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 11:16 PM > > In "Re: [ExI] Tools for improving health care in the USA, now" > Post Futurist wrote: > > > Stress? sure, there is no civilization. > > Come now, don't be silly. > > > America is like ancient Rome.. wealthy, powerful, but no virtue. > > *No* virtue? Again, you exaggerate wildly. And it's > evident that you know very little about ancient Rome. > Whatever corruption, mal-distribution of power and > influence, disregard for individual rights that we > suffer in the modern world, multiply by 10 or 100 > to get ancient Rome or Greece. > > And as for brutality or intimidation by force, there > is utterly no comparison. > > > Dysfunctional families. High crime. > > As compared to what, when? Of course, it varies a lot > from neighborhood to neighborhood and city to city in > the West (or in America, as you write), and I'll have to > let others speak for their neighborhoods and cities. > > Yes, there are more dysfunctional families in America > than in 1950. Most adults in the slums were married > back then, and relatively few children were born out > of wedlock. But "dysfunctional" in terms of intra- > family tension, alcoholism, and so forth, sadly the > situation has never been ideal. > > And that's the eternal problem in the babblesphere > and among the chattering classes: invariably the > comparison is made to an ideal, rather than to anything > real (past or present). > > > K-16 Schools that teach students not to think. > > As compared to when? > > Besides, to me it's not clear at all that you can "teach > someone to think". Yes, some constructivism in education > has been all to the good, but some of it is very bad. > I would guess that most schools and most home-schoolers > are not too far from a happy medium. (I am by no means > saying that things can't improve, nor suggesting that > anywhere near optimal learning and teaching strategies > geared to individuals have yet been found.) > > > This country is still fighting not only Vietnam, but also the > Civil War; and after 144 years. > > Stress. you betcha. > > Okay, there are still echos of both those conflicts, > in both politics and daily life. > > But compared to 1909, when the country was nearly at > war with itself (labor vs. business), politically the > country today is quite united. > > And leaving politics aside, the *real* stresses of > daily life for almost everyone have nothing at all > to do with those ancient wars or their after-effects. > > Lee > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 > From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Sep 1 22:34:15 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:34:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC article on climate change In-Reply-To: <580930c20908291223jf1bba28y361083763cc92192@mail.gmail.com> References: <307325.40932.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20908291223jf1bba28y361083763cc92192@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A9DA167.8040105@libero.it> Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > 2009/8/29 John Clark : >> Species are going extinct at perhaps 1,000 times the normal rate >> That's a really really interesting statistic. It would be even more >> interesting if I had some reason to believe it's true. My rule of thumb is >> to be suspicious of any article that uses the word "normal" without further >> elaboration. > "Normal" is a meaningless concept in this context, I fully agree. When a jornalist write 1,000 times or 100 times more I, also, am suspicious. And usually the concept is equally meaningless. > And, there again, it might well not be (entirely?) anthropic, but > remain nevertheless a source of concern. I have no doubt that the mass > extinction of the Cambrian, which could not in any sense be anthropic, > has been a great loss for our planet, if anything in terms of > scientific interest. Well, without the extiction of the cambrian there would not be space and resources enough for our progenitors to evolve. Evolution need random changes and selection. And selection imply a loss of something. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Sep 1 22:34:30 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:34:30 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress In-Reply-To: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A9DA176.9020204@libero.it> Post Futurist ha scritto: > Vietnam? so many thousands of ex-'Nam soldiers are in pain; I think the "psycothic ex-Nam soldier" is a national myth, but it is not true. It is like the "Resistance liberated Italy" meme sold by the Left (Communist - Socialist) with the other meme that the Resistance was only from the Left during the WW2. The rate of mental breakdown in Viet-Nam was much lower than the rate of mental break-down in Korea, WW2 and WW1. And, pratically the rate diminished from WW1 to WW2 to Korean and then Viet-Nam was the minium, until the Iraq and Afghanistan campaign. What changed? The reporting of the press. The media. During WW2 they focused on combat, wreaking havok on the enemy and how much the enemy was evil and stupid and how much your side and the their allies are good and intelligent and successful. In these days, a journalist named Michael Yon was dis-embedded from a unit of UK soldiers. The difference a soldier noted (not difficult) from Yon (that is a free lance and ex-SOF) and the MSM journalists touring Afghanistan and staying out of any harm way (usually in they Hotel rooms ) is they focused on how much the soldier are sad for being away from home or how much the want eat mom's apple pie. Yon asked about the combats, the combatants, the enemy, the people around, the battles, the weapons, etc. And write about these. > and who was > it Repuglicans ran for potus less than a year ago? a gung ho 'Nam > vet-- over 33 years after the war ended. Not strange, given soldiers are young people, usually. How many WW2 was elected POTUS? Eisenhower, Kennedy (that lasted a couple of days in shark infested waters when his ship was sunked by japaneses). > The Vietnam war is NOT over. Not for the Left, for sure. How many bogus veterans are out there supporting the Left agenda? How much Viet-Nam is the fundation of their "narratve", their entire myth system? Without it, they are without something that define them. > And we're also in another war. Thousands of casualties stateside. % of serving and killed WW1 WW2 Korea Viet-Nam Iraq Army 2.8% 2.2% USMC 3.66% 3.7% Navy 1.5% 1.4% Air Force 2.5% 0.9% The losers had 30+% of dead soldiers (German) at the end of the war. The US lost soldiers in around the same number lost for Iwo Jima, in a much smaller time (days) and from a much smaller pool of people (for sure not 130K soldiers). And not much more than the number of people killed by al-Qaeda during 11/09/2001 attacks. The larger losses are due to incidents at home and on the battlefield. The rate of losses was under 1% annually in the worst moments of the war in Iraq. Afghanistan is a bit more lethal, but the number of people there is smaller. Viet-Nam was higher and WW2 and Korea much higher. Mirco From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 00:20:57 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 17:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress Message-ID: <207529.56774.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> "How many WW2 was elected POTUS? Eisenhower, Kennedy (that lasted a couple of days in shark infested waters when his ship was sunked by japaneses)." ? Nixon, Ford, Bush?all served in the Pacific theater.?Most potuses were in the war, or postwar services. Carter was in the postwar?navy, the shrub was in the Guard. Mirco, your?view of?war-legacy is too optimistic-- 'civilization'?is influenced by Alexander and Hannibal, is even remotely influenced by the first homo sapien who cracked another guy's?skull open with a big rock. For some reason I usually feel like Candide being pontificated to by Dr. Pangloss. But I reject apocalypticism, even though there are mini-apocalypses. Vietnam was one. This war is another. BUT, this current?war?might end by 2020-- so the next?war can be started up. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Sep 2 00:28:17 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 17:28:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ARPA-E-Announcement Message-ID: <1251851876_23895@s7.cableone.net> A friend sent me this. The DOE people need to be educated, given the losers they funded on the last round. I don't know if it is possible, but they are asking for input. Keith >>> ARPA-E-Announcement 31-Aug-09 2:29 PM >>> Advanced Research Projects Agency - Energy Techline ARPA-E Requests Input on Future Funding Opportunities Washington, DC, August 31, 2009 - The Advanced Research Projects Agency - Energy (ARPA-E) announced today a formal Request for Information (RFI) for future funding opportunities. The RFI requests public input on potential ARPA-E programmatic areas and opportunities to overcome technological roadblocks to the development of transformational technologies relevant to the ARPA-E mission. The information collected through this process will assist ARPA-E in developing new programs and funding opportunities. ARPA-E's first Funding Opportunity Announcement, released on April 27, 2009, and solicited a broad range of ideas for transformational energy technology development. With this RFI, ARPA-E is now reaching out to the public for input on specific programmatic energy technology areas that may be well-suited to provide transformational impacts on ARPA-E's mission areas of reducing foreign energy imports; decreasing energy related emissions, including those of greenhouse gases; increasing energy efficiency across the U.S. economy, and ensuring that the U.S. maintains a technological lead in developing and deploying advanced energy technologies. Responses to the RFI are due to ARPA-E by September 25, 2009. To review the RFI, please visit http://arpa-e.energy.gov/PI.html For more information about ARPA-E, please visit http://arpa-e.energy.gov/ From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 01:12:26 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress Message-ID: <170089.95915.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Mirco, not to be too pessimistic; there is good reason to be optimistic. No one goes?broke underestimating taste-- so the economy should recover very nicely. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 01:33:08 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime Message-ID: <697816.216.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> "better paranoid than dead." Thanks ever so much, John. Above is the most important truism of all time. As character Gordon Sims on Cincinnati WKRP (KRP was possibly an acronym for 'crap') said, "there is no such thing as paranoia, being paranoid is just good thinking." He was absolutely correct. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 02:26:27 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 12:26:27 +1000 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: <697816.216.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <697816.216.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/2 Post Futurist : > "better paranoid than dead." > Thanks ever so much, John. > Above is the most important truism of all time. As character Gordon Sims on > Cincinnati WKRP (KRP was possibly an acronym for 'crap') said, > "there is no such thing as paranoia, being paranoid is just good thinking." > > He was absolutely correct. I see paranoid people for a living, and I can tell you, it isn't good thinking. It's also very hard to pin down without resorting to a normative definition: paranoid is what people think is paranoid. -- Stathis Papaioannou From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 02:58:57 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 19:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime Message-ID: <929230.63152.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> "It's also very hard to pin down without resorting to a normative definition: paranoid is what people think is paranoid." That's it, Stathis: 'paranoia', 'paranoid' can be, for the layman, lingo for being cautious. In a bad neighborhood being overly, or even extremely suspicious (i.e. paranoid) can be an asset to the quality of one's life, not a liability. If a slum dweller is paranoid and on guard for every real or imagined threat, then he might do better for himself than if he were on guard only most of the time. Of course you know the quote from the sitcom character, "there is no such thing as paranoia, being paranoid is just good thinking", was a joke, right? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Wed Sep 2 02:43:59 2009 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 22:43:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Spider Robinson's wife needs help urgently Message-ID: <200909020334.n823YYB5007510@andromeda.ziaspace.com> The wife of Hugo and Nebula award-winning sf writer and punster Spider Robinson, choreographer Jeanne Robinson (who cowrote the exceptional Stardance series with him) needs help. Now. I don't know Jeanne but Spider has been an exemplar of extraordinary generosity every time our paths have crossed over 34 years. -- David. http://www.spiderrobinson.com/index2.html HELP JEANNE STAY HEALTHY This year a brilliant surgeon, Dr. Andresz Busczowski, helped Jeanne Robinson beat back a rare and virulent form of biliary cancer. But it's so rare even he can't say how much time he's bought her, how soon it might recur. For technical reasons she is not a candidate for either radiation or chemo. Her only hope for longterm survival is therefore to reboot and reinvigorate her failed immune system. She needs special therapies and meds, extensive diet and lifestyle changes, and a stress level as close to zero as possible. All those are expensive, none are covered by even Canada's excellent medical care...and like many artists today the Robinsons were already running on fumes financially. But Jeanne, a Soto Zen monk, has been spreading love and kindness in all directions for a long time. So her Buddhist sangha in Vancouver, her neighbors on Bowen Island, and friends as far away as Florida have all spontaneously come together to raise funds to help keep her around as long as possible. Your participation is welcomed. A Bowen benefit concert, "WE DREAM FOR JEANNE," will be held at Cates Hill Chapel at 7:30 PM on Friday Sept 18 details here; cheques may be made out to Jeanne Robinson in Trust and sent to Mountain Rain Zen Center, 6183 Fraser St. Vancouver, BC V5W 2Z9; goods or services can be donated for eBay auction by contacting Jan Schroeder at , and PayPal donations can be sent to . Jeanne and Spider both warmly appreciate your help, support, prayers or just good thoughts. From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 09:48:02 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:48:02 +1000 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: <929230.63152.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <929230.63152.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/2 Post Futurist : > "It's also very hard to pin down without resorting to a > normative definition: paranoid is what people think is paranoid." > > That's it, Stathis: > 'paranoia', 'paranoid' can be, for the layman, lingo for being cautious. > In a bad neighborhood being overly, or even extremely suspicious (i.e. > paranoid) can be an asset to the quality of one's life, not a liability. If > a slum dweller is paranoid and on guard for every real or imagined threat, > then he might do better for himself than if he were on guard only most of > the time. > Of course you know the quote from the sitcom character, "there is no such > thing as paranoia, being paranoid is just good thinking", was a joke, right? Yes, I know it was a joke. But true paranoia does *not* help you, even if you live in a situation where you are actually at risk. I've had criminals bring in one of their own explaining, "He's paranoid, you have to help him" - while admitting that there probably are people who would try to kill him and the police probably do monitor him. Similarly with religious delusions: sometimes as far as I can tell the beliefs of the patient are no more bizarre than other religious beliefs, but their community recognises that there is something wrong with them. A delusion is defined in psychiatry as a fixed, false belief which is not in keeping with the person's culture or community. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 12:59:20 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 14:59:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC article on climate change In-Reply-To: <4A9DA167.8040105@libero.it> References: <307325.40932.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20908291223jf1bba28y361083763cc92192@mail.gmail.com> <4A9DA167.8040105@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20909020559l4fa6ffbeof81d6314ddb1ba9a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/2 Mirco Romanato : > Well, without the extiction of the cambrian there would not be space and > resources enough for our progenitors to evolve. Possibly so. > Evolution need random changes and selection. And selection imply a loss of > something. Certainly. But I am all in favour of an *artificial* protection and/or resurrection of biodiversity. Including ? la Jurassic Park. If anything as a subject of study, a cache of genetic stuff, and an aesthetically interesting aspect of life. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 13:06:09 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:06:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Slashdot Hardware Story | Japan Plans $21B Space Power Plant In-Reply-To: <011860e1-cfab-4eab-8e64-ef64b746104f@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com> References: <011860e1-cfab-4eab-8e64-ef64b746104f@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909020606o3040d88ek8514dc2407c8038b@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Parody of Language Date: 2009/9/2 Subject: [Cosmic Engineers] Re: Slashdot Hardware Story | Japan Plans $21B Space Power Plant To: Cosmic Engineers On Sep 1, 4:54?pm, Samantha Atkins wrote: > http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/09/01/1656246/Japan-Plans-21B-S... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aF3XI.TvlsJk This article seems to have a few more details. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cosmic Engineers" group. To post to this group, send email to cosmic-engineers at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cosmic-engineers+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cosmic-engineers?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- Stefano Vaj From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 14:30:02 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 07:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <610107.6621.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Right, someone who is being pursued or monitired wont be helped by being paranoid. But ?But true paranoia does *not* help you, even if you live in a situation where you are actually at risk. I've had criminals bring in one of their own explaining, "He's paranoid, you have to help him" - while admitting that there probably are people who would try to kill him and the police probably do monitor him. Similarly with religious delusions: sometimes as far as I can tell the beliefs of the patient are no more bizarre than other religious beliefs, but their community recognises that there is something wrong with them. A delusion is defined in psychiatry as a fixed, false belief which is not in keeping with the person's culture or community. -- Stathis Papaioannou _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 14:53:22 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 07:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime Message-ID: <715593.53799.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Right, someone who is being pursued or monitored wont be helped by being paranoid. But if no one is out to 'get' you, and you, say, sometimes walk in a bad neighborhood at night, then being paranoid--i.e. excessively suspicious-- would keep you extra alert for cues indicating danger. If the likelihood is low you would be harmed but you are very suspicious anyway, what might be termed paranoid could protect you from marauders, despite as you correctly write, *not* helping you. Paranoia has a negative effect, naturally, on the nervous system. Funny, the most famous paranoid, Hitler, was not. Living in a flop house in Vienna, being exposed to enemy fire as a despatcher, in WWI, being threatened by?deposition or assassination while dictator, were reasons for him to be justifiably suspicious. The most remarkable fact concerning Hitler was that he was able to keep his head from?nineteen forty?three?to?forty five, experiencing such?intense pressure. He had no choice, but still most would have folded with such pressure. Hitler had a personality disorder, but was not mentally ill. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 15:26:07 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 17:26:07 +0200 Subject: [ExI] IEEE on the Singularity Message-ID: <580930c20909020826x3250c1b8v6ff7fd334b8c38aa@mail.gmail.com> Very, very, very interesting: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/static/singularity I would say a must reading for anybody interested in the subject. What is substantially omitted is any discussion of the kind of societal mobilisation and cultural pre-conditions required to achieve and maintain a given pace of technological progress, let alone a technological "singularity". -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Sep 3 06:44:11 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 01:44:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Order Without Orderers, online for the first time Message-ID: <200909030711.n837B0FO024271@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Recent discussion of the early versions of the Extropian principles spurred me to look at my writing on spontaneous order from the days of the print version of Extropy magazine. "Order Without Orderers", my paper on the importance of spontaneous order in transhumanist thinking, appeared in Extropy #7 in 1991. It has never been available online until now. My thanks to Natasha for OCR'ing the paper from the original print edition of Extropy #7. I've been through the result, further cleaning it up. It should be in pretty good shape now. www.maxmore.com/Order_Without_Orderers.htm Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From eschatoon at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 08:21:58 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 10:21:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Order Without Orderers, online for the first time In-Reply-To: <200909030711.n837B0FO024271@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909030711.n837B0FO024271@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909030121n193cb995h7e0cefe173caf57c@mail.gmail.com> This is great -- I am reading it now, and I look forward to seeing more "historic" papers available online. This could help us recovering the fresh and visionary outlook of the early 90s. Wouldn't it be a good idea to reproduce all the paper issues of Extropy in e-magazine (or just PDF) format? On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Max More wrote: > Recent discussion of the early versions of the Extropian principles spurred > me to look at my writing on spontaneous order from the days of the print > version of Extropy magazine. > > "Order Without Orderers", my paper on the importance of spontaneous order in > transhumanist thinking, appeared in Extropy #7 in 1991. It has never been > available online until now. > > My thanks to Natasha for OCR'ing the paper from the original print edition > of Extropy #7. I've been through the result, further cleaning it up. It > should be in pretty good shape now. > > www.maxmore.com/Order_Without_Orderers.htm > > Max > > > ------------------------------------- > Max More, Ph.D. > Strategic Philosopher > Extropy Institute Founder > www.maxmore.com > max at maxmore.com > ------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 11:18:52 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 21:18:52 +1000 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: <715593.53799.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <715593.53799.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/3 Post Futurist : > Right, someone who is being pursued or monitored wont be helped by being > paranoid. But if no one is out to 'get' you, and you, say, sometimes walk in > a bad neighborhood at night, then being paranoid--i.e. excessively > suspicious-- would keep you extra alert for cues indicating danger. If the > likelihood is low you would be harmed but you are very suspicious anyway, > what might be termed paranoid could protect you from marauders, despite as > you correctly write, *not* helping you. Paranoia has a negative effect, > naturally, on the nervous system. > Funny, the most famous paranoid, Hitler, was not. Living in a flop house in > Vienna, being exposed to enemy fire as a despatcher, in WWI, being > threatened by?deposition or assassination while dictator, were reasons for > him to be justifiably suspicious. The most remarkable fact concerning Hitler > was that he was able to keep his head from?nineteen forty?three?to?forty > five, experiencing such?intense pressure. He had no choice, but still most > would have folded with such pressure. Hitler had a personality disorder, but > was not mentally ill. Yes, there is a difference between the personality disordered (Axis 2 in the DSM-IV) and the psychotic (Axis 1). The personality disordered have always been the way they are rather than suddenly becoming so, and they don't respond to antipsychotic medication. -- Stathis Papaioannou From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 12:05:16 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 13:05:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Order Without Orderers, online for the first time In-Reply-To: <200909030711.n837B0FO024271@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909030711.n837B0FO024271@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 9/3/09, Max More wrote: > "Order Without Orderers", my paper on the importance of spontaneous order > in transhumanist thinking, appeared in Extropy #7 in 1991. It has never been > available online until now. > > My thanks to Natasha for OCR'ing the paper from the original print edition > of Extropy #7. I've been through the result, further cleaning it up. It > should be in pretty good shape now. > > www.maxmore.com/Order_Without_Orderers.htm > As history, it's an interesting read. But after the 2007 financial markets debacle I think you should delete all the discussion of self-regulating markets. That was Greenspan's flawed ideology - that government regulation wasn't needed because the market players would self-regulate because it was in their own interest to do so. Now I know that you will immediately shout 'But it wasn't really a free market!' But the general reader will obviously say that if you can't have a free market in the US where rampant capitalism rules, then where can you? Thus leading to the thought that your 'free market' must be a mythical beast. Greenspan's ideology failure has been discussed in many places and books have been written about it, but this is a good summary: Capitalist Fools by Joseph E. Stiglitz January 2009 Stiglitz first discusses the history of all the wrong decisions that led to the financial crisis, then sums up in the final paragraph: The truth is most of the individual mistakes boil down to just one: a belief that markets are self-adjusting and that the role of government should be minimal. Looking back at that belief during hearings this fall on Capitol Hill, Alan Greenspan said out loud, ?I have found a flaw.? Congressman Henry Waxman pushed him, responding, ?In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right; it was not working.? ?Absolutely, precisely,? Greenspan said. The embrace by America?and much of the rest of the world?of this flawed economic philosophy made it inevitable that we would eventually arrive at the place we are today. ------------- BillK From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Thu Sep 3 14:28:27 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 07:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] desensitization v reality Message-ID: <367803.83009.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Frankly, if being paranoid didn't have a negative effect on the CNS, I would think paranoia would be beneficial in what I consider to be an uncivilized, or at the very least, Orwellian, substrate. Hitler was in fact a victim, in a sense. He had the prerogative of rejecting militarism, but had no choice in being militarized. The Germanics are very efficient, so Hitler was inevitably picked up by Austria for draft evasion. The next year he took the best route, from his perspective, by fighting for Germany. He was no pacifist, but even if he had been, he had little choice as to being conscripted. The problem I have with psychology (but not psychiatry) is you can change the subject; but coping with the substrate means hiding from an uncivilized reality, to a point. Say, what would Hitler have done if he had been a pacifist? Hidden in Scandinavia? You can counsel someone to cope with their environment, but at what price? How much does a subject desensitize himself from a decadent reality without losing touch of too much of a reality check in the process? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 15:05:45 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 12:05:45 -0300 Subject: [ExI] Japan wants energy from space (or death ray if they can't aim...) References: <200909030711.n837B0FO024271@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: Japan Wants to Power 300,000 Homes With Wireless Energy From Space http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-09/japan-wants-power-300000-homes-wireless-power-space Japan has serious plans to send a solar-panel-equipped satellite into space that could wirelessly beam a gigawatt-strong stream of power down to earth and power nearly 300,000 homes. The satellite will have a surface area of four square kilometers, and transmit power via microwave to a base station on Earth. Putting solar panels in space bypasses many of the difficulties of installing them on Earth: in orbit, there are no cloudy days, very few zoning laws, and the cold ambient temperature is ideal. A small test model is scheduled for launch in 2015. To iron out all the kinks and get a fully functional system set up is estimated to take three decades. A major kink, presumably, is coping with the possible dangers when a 1-gigawatt microwave beam aimed at a small spot on Earth misses its target. The $21 billion project just received major backing from Mitsubishi and designer IHI (in addition to research teams from 14 other countries). From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Sep 3 14:48:13 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:48:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slashdot Hardware Story | Japan Plans $21B Space Power Plant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1251989874_4312@s2.cableone.net> At 05:00 AM 9/3/2009, Stefano Vaj wrote: >On Sep 1, 4:54?pm, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/09/01/1656246/Japan-Plans-21B-S... Sept. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Mitsubishi Electric Corp. and IHI Corp. will join a 2 trillion yen ($21 billion) Japanese project intending to build a giant solar-power generator in space within three decades and beam electricity to earth. A research group representing 16 companies, including Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd., will spend four years developing technology to send electricity without cables in the form of microwaves, according to a statement on the trade ministry's Web site today. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aJ529lsdk9HI http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aF3XI.TvlsJk I responded on Slashdot. Here is a copy with additions/deletions. ************* Tekfactory put his finger squarely on the problem. $500/pound is close enough to $1000/kg and that is ten times to high for space based solar power to undercut fossil fuels. The Japanese recognize this. "Transporting panels to the solar station 36,000 kilometers above the earth's surface will be prohibitively costly, so Japan has to figure out a way to slash expenses to make the solar station commercially viable, said Hiroshi Yoshida, Chief Executive Officer of Excalibur KK, a Tokyo-based space and defense-policy consulting company. "These expenses need to be lowered to a hundredth of current estimates," Yoshida said by phone from Tokyo. I get the same number close enough. Current price to GEO $20,000/kg; required for space based solar power to displace fossils by being substantially less expensive (1-2 cents per kWh) is $100/kg, a factor of 200. Design to cost. Start with the rocket equation: Needed 100 t/hr to GEO, $100/kg. Try a two stage to GEO. Requires 14 km/sec, get the first 4 km/sec with a mass ratio 3 hydrogen/oxygen rocket. Four km/sec is easy to do, ask Elon Musk. To get the remaining 10 km/sec with a mass ratio 2 means an average exhaust velocity of 15km/sec. Because you stage far short of LEO, the second stage must have relatively high thrust so ion engines won't do. Ablation laser propulsion (well understood physics) with an average exhaust velocity of 15 km/sec will provide over a g at 4 GW. The suborbital path keeps the second stage out of the atmosphere long enough (15 minutes) for the laser to push the second stage into geosynchronous transfer orbit. At 4 payloads an hour (working the laser full time), each payload to GEO needs to be 25 t. So the mass ratio 2 laser stage is 50 t, the first stage 50 t (16%structure) and 200 t propellant. On takeoff it masses 300 tons, less than a 747. A large airport handles a lot more traffic than eight 747 takeoffs and landings an hour. Hard engineering and not cheap. The laser might eventually cost $40 billion. To get started (to positive cash flow) came out to $60 billion on a first cut proforma analysis. A UK company, Reaction Engines, has an inordinately clever approach to boost the effective exhaust velocity so as to put payloads (12 tons) into LEO with hydrogen/oxygen single stage to orbit. What they are doing is recovering a lot of the energy that goes into liquefying hydrogen and using that to cool and compress air to rocket chamber pressures up to 26km and Mach 5+. Google for them. Also see http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5485 if you want more details. Added new thoughts from the space elevator conference. A lot of the mass of a thermal power satellite is heat sink fluid. That can be made from finely ground rock and a little gas. Decouples gas pressure from the amount of heat the pseudo fluid can carry. Seems a shame to be shipping up sacks of cement dust. We are looking into the payback time for a moving cable space elevator through L1 to the lunar surface. Existing materials are good enough for the cable--without taper. 15 MW is enough to lift 33 tons per hour. Feed lunar dirt through a vibratory ball mill and presto heat sink fluid. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 16:37:44 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 18:37:44 +0200 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: References: <715593.53799.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909030937i2539263cj871f4594de37af41@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/3 Stathis Papaioannou : > Yes, there is a difference between the personality disordered (Axis 2 > in the DSM-IV) and the psychotic (Axis 1). The personality disordered > have always been the way they are rather than suddenly becoming so, > and they don't respond to antipsychotic medication. Yes, and this distinction provides one as well with an interesting street-fighting technique. When aggressed, if you ask "are you Axis 2 or Axis 1?", chances are that while the other party is wondering what the hell are you talking about, or preparing to formulate an articulated reply if he or she is versed in modern psychiatric jargon, you cab obtain a little more time to assess what your further course of action should be... :-D -- Stefano Vaj From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Thu Sep 3 17:32:08 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 10:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: <580930c20909030937i2539263cj871f4594de37af41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <785243.31999.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Sounds like a plan. Here's another: when the mug asks for your wallet, you look over his shoulder and say, "okay, but who is that in back of you, a cop?" He might poop right then and there. >When aggressed, if you ask "are you Axis 2 or Axis 1?", chances are that while the other party is wondering what the hell are you talking about, or preparing to formulate an articulated reply if he or she is versed in modern psychiatric jargon, you cab obtain a little more time to assess what your further course of action should be... :-D -- Stefano Vaj _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Sep 3 21:09:02 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:09:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Order Without Orderers, online for the first time Message-ID: <200909032109.n83L9DLQ001214@andromeda.ziaspace.com> BillK wrote: > > www.maxmore.com/Order_Without_Orderers.htm > > > >As history, it's an interesting read. >But after the 2007 financial markets debacle I think you should >delete all the discussion of self-regulating markets. That was >Greenspan's flawed ideology - that government regulation wasn't >needed because the market players would self-regulate because it was >in their own interest to do so. To reply to this, I'll paste in this part of a longer post I just sent to the Extrobritannia list: On the Extropy-Chat list, yesterday I posted a link to my "Order Without Orderers" article from 1991 that I just put online. BillK suggested that I rewrite part of it to reflect the imperfections of financial markets revealed by the recent problems. Aside from being unwilling to alter the original piece, I reject BillK's suggestion because I think that most (not all) of the financial and economic problems we have experienced are the result not of unfettered free markets but of government regulation and intervention. (I expressed more on this in a blog post: http://strategicphilosophy.blogspot.com/2009/05/stress-testing-government-regulations.html ) ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 3 21:31:08 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:31:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Order Without Orderers, online for the first time In-Reply-To: <200909032109.n83L9DLQ001214@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909032109.n83L9DLQ001214@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <4AA0359C.1070200@satx.rr.com> On 9/3/2009 4:09 PM, Max More wrote: > I reject BillK's suggestion because I think that most (not all) of the > financial and economic problems we have experienced are the result not > of unfettered free markets but of government regulation and intervention. You might have answered this in your linked comment, but I wonder if you imply that either (a) you know and understand more about it than Greenspan, or (b) Greenspan didn't really mean what BillK quoted him as saying (?I have found a flaw.? Congressman Henry Waxman pushed him, responding, ?In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right; it was not working.? ?Absolutely, precisely,? Greenspan said), or (c) Greenspan is senile/always was a govt tool/other. (Not that I'm making any sort of case for Greenspan, just wondering.) Damien Broderick From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Sep 3 23:15:29 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:15:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man Message-ID: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> Has anyone read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould? http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Stephen-Jay-Gould/dp/0393314251 Natasha From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 01:17:12 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 18:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] surefire way to prevent street robbery In-Reply-To: <4AA0359C.1070200@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <340248.77701.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> You tell the mugger, "I'm a transhumano-extropian", and he will take out his own wallet, saying, "so sorry, here is all my cash". Works every time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 11:16:21 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 13:16:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime In-Reply-To: <785243.31999.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <580930c20909030937i2539263cj871f4594de37af41@mail.gmail.com> <785243.31999.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909040416i13df7de1s2cc912e117a080b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/3 Post Futurist : > Sounds like a plan. Here's another: when the mug asks for your wallet, you > look over his shoulder and say, "okay, but who is that in back of you, a > cop?" > He might poop right then and there. Yes, but you would sound somewhat conventional, and way, way less cool... :-) >>When aggressed, if you ask "are you Axis 2 or Axis 1?", chances are > that while the other party is wondering what the hell are you talking > about, or preparing to formulate an articulated reply if he or she is > versed in modern psychiatric jargon, you cab obtain a little more time > to assess what your further course of action should be... :-D > > -- > Stefano Vaj > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 11:39:08 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 13:39:08 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/4 : > Has anyone read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould? > http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Stephen-Jay-Gould/dp/0393314251 I did not, and usually do not like him much. Should we? -- Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Sep 4 15:19:04 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 10:19:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> No, not necessarily. I was more intersted in his historical pitch and the accuracy of his account. I know he is often looked at with disdain, especially in regards to Richard Dawkins. What are your thoughts? Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 6:39 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man 2009/9/4 : > Has anyone read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould? > http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Stephen-Jay-Gould/dp/0393314251 I did not, and usually do not like him much. Should we? -- Stefano Vaj _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Sep 4 15:30:32 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 10:30:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] IEEE on the Singularity In-Reply-To: <580930c20909020826x3250c1b8v6ff7fd334b8c38aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20909020826x3250c1b8v6ff7fd334b8c38aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0348AFF396694CED91D57B6A79219643@DFC68LF1> Yes, and that leads directly into transhumanism. I also find that often missing is aesthetics and design. Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 10:26 AM To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List; cosmic-engineers at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list; technoprogressive at yahoogroups.com Subject: [ExI] IEEE on the Singularity Very, very, very interesting: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/static/singularity I would say a must reading for anybody interested in the subject. What is substantially omitted is any discussion of the kind of societal mobilisation and cultural pre-conditions required to achieve and maintain a given pace of technological progress, let alone a technological "singularity". -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 15:52:20 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 17:52:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/4 Natasha Vita-More : > No, not necessarily. ?I was more intersted in his historical pitch and the > accuracy of his account. ?I know he is often looked at with disdain, > especially in regards to Richard Dawkins. > > What are your thoughts? Mmhhh, yes, I might have been influenced by the Dawkinsian Party, but I also read something of his, and I did not find him very illuminating, not even in a negative sense, even though his very good knowledge of his subjects is obvious and some objections to the "new synthesis" are interesting. This is why I was wondering whether you recommend the book at hand... -- Stefano Vaj From jameschoate at austin.rr.com Fri Sep 4 16:57:17 2009 From: jameschoate at austin.rr.com (jameschoate at austin.rr.com) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 11:57:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20090904165717.ICM6R.658576.root@hrndva-web03-z01> Yes, and a goodly number of his other books as well. You should also read Ernst Mayr as well. ---- natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > Has anyone read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould? > http://www.amazon.com/Mismeasure-Man-Stephen-Jay-Gould/dp/0393314251 > > Natasha > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- -- -- -- -- Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus James Choate jameschoate at austin.rr.com james.choate at twcable.com 512-657-1279 www.ssz.com http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center Adapt, Adopt, Improvise -- -- -- -- From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 4 17:19:51 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:19:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <4AA14C37.1020301@satx.rr.com> > 2009/9/4: >> Has anyone read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould? Of course, it's an important book, however controversial. I used a citation as an epigraph in my recent novel QUIPU: "The spirit of Plato dies hard. We have been unable to escape the philosophical tradition that what we see and measure in the world is merely the superficial and imperfect representation of an underlying reality... The temptation to reify is powerful. The idea that we have detected something "underlying" the externalities of a large set of correlation coefficients, something perhaps more real than the superficial measurements themselves, can be intoxicating. It is Plato's essence..." ::Stephen Jay Gould, The Mismeasure of Man A nifty little book is Dawkins vs Gould: Survival of the Fittest (Revolutions in Science) by Kim Sterelny. You might also look at Andrew Brown's delicious The Darwin Wars (Simon&Schuster). Damien Broderick From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Sep 4 17:34:34 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 12:34:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc><580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com><63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I do. I also think that the issues of "normal" and "normalization"* is crucial to human enhancement and to consider what the jurisprudence has been in accessing one person as normal and another person disabled will become a very important area of debate as we alter our genetics. * Another good read is _Damned for Their Difference: The Cultural Construction of Deaf People as Disabled_ (Branson & Miller) Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 10:52 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man 2009/9/4 Natasha Vita-More : > No, not necessarily. ?I was more intersted in his historical pitch and > the accuracy of his account. ?I know he is often looked at with > disdain, especially in regards to Richard Dawkins. > > What are your thoughts? Mmhhh, yes, I might have been influenced by the Dawkinsian Party, but I also read something of his, and I did not find him very illuminating, not even in a negative sense, even though his very good knowledge of his subjects is obvious and some objections to the "new synthesis" are interesting. This is why I was wondering whether you recommend the book at hand... -- Stefano Vaj _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From jonkc at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 4 17:19:03 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 13:19:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Magnetic Monopoles Detected!! In-Reply-To: <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090903/full/news.2009.881.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 21:14:33 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 23:14:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/4 Natasha Vita-More > Yes, I do. Ordered from Amazon right now, owing to my blind trust to your judgment. :-) I will let you know my impressions as soon as I have read it. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Sat Sep 5 00:16:50 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 17:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] How to avoid becoming a victim of street crime Message-ID: <35074.44420.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> not at all. You look very startled when glancing over the mugs shoulder, and exclaim: "Man alive! who is that cat behind you? is he?a pig?or what??"? Yes, but you would sound somewhat conventional, and way, way less cool... :-) >> Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Sat Sep 5 04:56:55 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 21:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Dale Carrico Message-ID: <648408.23793.qm@web59909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Would you be so kind as to provide his address, or other venue in reaching Mr. Carrico, for a reply to this piece of his?: http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2009/01/wingnuttrons-demand-their-pla... Though it is (was, it's from January) a toss-off polemic, I wish to reiterate that not all conservatives sit in booths wearing suspenders to argue h+ over greasy burgers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Sep 5 16:04:44 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:04:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office Message-ID: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Can't say I found the results surprising: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32681973/ns/health-health_care/ My sole experience, so far, visiting a MinuteClinic was very positive. Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 5 16:20:59 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:20:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Call for Papers: Gender, Bodies, Technology Message-ID: <4AA28FEB.7030007@satx.rr.com> ?Gender, Bodies and Technology? http://www.cpe.vt.edu/gbt/ Proposals are invited for an Interdisciplinary Conference April 22-24, 2010 Roanoke, Virginia Sponsored by the Women?s and Gender Studies Program at Virginia Tech Proposal Deadline: September 15, 2009 We invite proposals from scholars in the humanities, social and natural sciences, visual and performing arts, engineering and technology for papers, panels, new media art and performance pieces that explore: the technological production of gendered and racialized bodies, historical and contemporary feminist appropriations of technology in aesthetics and representations of embodiment, and the gendered implications of technology in contexts ranging from classrooms to workplaces to the Internet. We construe technology broadly to include material culture and the apparatus of daily life, such as writing, books and the built environment. Specific topics might include, but are not limited to: -Technological production and control of classed, racialized, aged and gendered bodies -Work, healthcare, education and activities of daily life as produced through technologies -Performance, new media and other creative expressions as sites for engaging/enacting/destabilizing conventions of embodiment and technology -Biopolitics and medical engineering of reproduction, sexual identity and gender -Personal narrative and oral history as sources of embodied theorizing -Surveillance, containment, in/security and militarization -Identity and technological design, production and use; gender, race, age, class and sexuality in SET (sciences, engineering and technology) fields -New media art and feminist aesthetics -Technologies of development and sustainability; eco-feminism -Activism, participatory decision-making and issues of technological citizenship As an assemblage of people and technologies we see the conference itself as enacting the conference theme. We welcome innovative uses of technology and creative session formats, including performance and interactive presentations, as well as traditional paper presentations. Using the form attached, please submit a proposal of up to 300 words for each individual presentation, including not only the scholarship you will engage but also the format that you wish to use. For panels, include an abstract for each presentation. Please specify in your proposal any special requirements for technology or space that you anticipate. Proposals will be reviewed by Virginia Tech Women?s and Gender Studies faculty/affiliates with appropriate expertise and notification of the outcome will be made no later than October 15, 2009. Proposals should be submitted via our website at http://www.cpe.vt.edu/gbt/. If that is not possible, or if you have questions, please contact: Sharon Elber GBT Conference Co-Planner STS/Women?s and Gender Studies (0227) Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24061 selber at vt.edu From kanzure at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 13:54:57 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 08:54:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [tt] SKDB is a method for sharing hardware over the web Message-ID: <55ad6af70909060654s13d0ae94pd7ebe0c1aafe50f4@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eugen Leitl Date: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 8:52 AM Subject: [tt] SKDB is a method for sharing hardware over the interne To: tt at postbiota.org http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb ?apt-get for real stuff!? ? ? ?git repository: skdb.git ? ? ?code (web view) http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/ ? ? ?presentation: http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/presentations/updates-from-austin.pdf ? ? ?email: openmanufacturing at googlegroups.com ? ? ?IRC: #hplusroadmap on irc.freenode.net SKDB is a method for sharing hardware over the internet. By ?hardware? we mean not just designs for circuit boards, but also biological constructs, scientific instruments, machine tools, nuts and bolts, raw materials, and how to make them. You don't need to reinvent the wheel every time you begin a new project. Someone out there has probably already done most or all of the work for whatever you are trying to do, and then released the plans on the internet. There are many common tools and parts involved in making things. If only we could just ?get? everything automatically from the web, DIY manufacturing would be much easier. Essentially we want to do something like ?apt-get? for Debian or ?emerge? for Gentoo, the Linux software package managers. SKDB simplifies the process of searching for free designs, comparing part compatibility, and building lists of materials and components and where to get them. You could even say SKDB is ?apt-get but for real stuff?. In SKDB, hardware is organized into packages. Packages are a standard and consistent way for programs to find data. Packages may contain CAD files, CAM parameters, computer-readable descriptions of product specifications, product-specific code, and bill of materials. For each part in a package there are a number of interface definitions, which describe how the part can connect with other parts, even parts from other packages. Each package also lists dependencies which have to be bought or built in order to successfully carry out a project. For example a drill press is required to make holes with a certain level of accuracy. SKDB downloads all of the dependencies automatically and compares them to your existing inventory, and generates instructions for your CNC machinery if you have any. insert lego screenshot With OpenCASCADE, an open source CAD geometry kernel, parts can be visualized and combined in real-time to show new assemblies and constructions. The next steps are automatically generating instructions for assembling these parts and projects, with human-readable as well as robot-readable instructions (i.e., g-code). Also in the pipeline is a wiki-like frontend to SKDB with a git revision control back-end, which could be used as a free alternative to instructables or thingiverse, but better. With proper distributed revision control tools, anyone can publish and share their modifications with the rest of the world, and seamlessly merge those changes back into the main line. These tools are vital to the success of do-it-yourself collaborative and free manufacturing. Without a solid base for sharing and building upon each other's work, the movement will continue to flounder. SKDB is just getting started, but a number of important pieces are already functional: ? ? ?units conversion and equations ? ? ?formalized descriptions of several manufacturing processes ? ? ?a simple example package describing a typical screw from the hardware store ? ? ? ? ? ?the screw has a set of requirements for being manufactured ? ? ? ? ? ?a set of packages it depends on to work right (threads package) ? ? ? ? ? ?metadata such as homepage URL, author, copyright license ? ? ?a more complex package describing several lego bricks and how they go together ? ? ? ? ? ?run packages/lego/demo.py to demonstrate interface compatibility ? ? ? ? ? ?run paths.py to demonstrate making a lego assembly ? ? ? ? ? ?generate an assembly graph by choosing 'save' We need your help in converting open designs to a standard, freely-accessible format. If you have access to expensive proprietary CAD software such as Solidworks, CATIA, or AutoCAD, and wish to help, please contact us at openmanufacturing at googlegroups.com If not, we also need people with programming talent and engineering knowledge for converting manufacturing knowledge and product data into a computer readable format. If you're good with a text editor and know what ?feeds and speeds? means, you can certainly help us out. _______________________________________________ tt mailing list tt at postbiota.org http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt -- - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Sep 6 14:41:40 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 07:41:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> Oh, no, Natasha. Sorry I didn't see this and respond earlier. The book is basically an anti-genes polemic, entirely dismissing the honest work of people like Cyril Burt, claiming also that intelligence is hardly, if at all, heritable. Cosmides and Toomey, just to name two modern evolutionary psychologists, have nothing good to say about Gould writing outside his field. The most modern left-leaning (but still quite good book on intelligence, one that *does* honestly incorporate modern findings, is Flynn's "What is Intelligence?" (2007). Of course, if you want something really new, accurate, provocative, and interesting, try "The 10,000 Year Explosion" by Cochran and Harpending. Lee Stefano Vaj wrote: > 2009/9/4 Natasha Vita-More > > Yes, I do. > > > Ordered from Amazon right now, owing to my blind trust to your judgment. :-) > > I will let you know my impressions as soon as I have read it. > > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Sep 6 15:01:20 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 10:01:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <37439D64A3434BAB81FC2EBC7C74C802@DFC68LF1> Hi Lee, Thanks for your comments. I am more interested in diverse and even what we might consider wrong ideas. I don't like my research being subjectified by only supporting my thesis. It must also discount my own views to provide critical analysis and a broader perspective of the field. I'll certainly look at the books you suggest! Best, Natasha Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Lee Corbin Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 9:42 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man Oh, no, Natasha. Sorry I didn't see this and respond earlier. The book is basically an anti-genes polemic, entirely dismissing the honest work of people like Cyril Burt, claiming also that intelligence is hardly, if at all, heritable. Cosmides and Toomey, just to name two modern evolutionary psychologists, have nothing good to say about Gould writing outside his field. The most modern left-leaning (but still quite good book on intelligence, one that *does* honestly incorporate modern findings, is Flynn's "What is Intelligence?" (2007). Of course, if you want something really new, accurate, provocative, and interesting, try "The 10,000 Year Explosion" by Cochran and Harpending. Lee Stefano Vaj wrote: > 2009/9/4 Natasha Vita-More > > Yes, I do. > > > Ordered from Amazon right now, owing to my blind trust to your > judgment. :-) > > I will let you know my impressions as soon as I have read it. > > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sun Sep 6 15:38:39 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 11:38:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cyril Burt (was: The Mismeasure of Man) In-Reply-To: <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Sep 6, 2009, at 10:41 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > dismissing the honest work of people > like Cyril Burt First let me say that I think intelligence is largely inheritable, but I'm not going to defend Cyril Burt even if he does support something I think is probably true. Burt published a paper establishing the IQ correlation coefficients between fraternal and identical twins, a few years later he had lots and lots of new data on more twins and guess what, the correlation coefficients were still the same to 3 decimal points. A few years after that he had an even larger avalanche of data and the correlation coefficients were STILL the same to 3 decimal points! That just screams fraud, and not even a very skillful fraud. The evidence that his earlier work was also fraudulent is less overwhelming, but the fact that all his notes and raw data were burned is highly suspicious. Anyway, the fact that we know the man was a crook makes all his work useless to Science, it simply can't be trusted. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Sep 6 17:58:30 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 10:58:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cyril Burt In-Reply-To: References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <4AA3F846.2070605@rawbw.com> You ought to read the first few pages of "The Bell Curve". The deliberate defamation of Cyril Burt is carefully explained. It's politically completely incorrect, but I'm surprised you haven't seen it. Lee John Clark wrote: > On Sep 6, 2009, at 10:41 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > >> dismissing the honest work of people >> like Cyril Burt > > First let me say that I think intelligence is largely inheritable, but > I'm not going to defend Cyril Burt even if he does support something I > think is probably true. Burt published a paper establishing the IQ > correlation coefficients between fraternal and identical twins, a few > years later he had lots and lots of new data on more twins and guess > what, the correlation coefficients were still the same to 3 decimal > points. A few years after that he had an even larger avalanche of data > and the correlation coefficients were STILL the same to 3 decimal > points! That just screams fraud, and not even a very skillful fraud. > > The evidence that his earlier work was also fraudulent is less > overwhelming, but the fact that all his notes and raw data were burned > is highly suspicious. Anyway, the fact that we know the man was a crook > makes all his work useless to Science, it simply can't be trusted. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From sentience at pobox.com Sun Sep 6 20:42:18 2009 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 13:42:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Books: The Mismeasure of Man In-Reply-To: <37439D64A3434BAB81FC2EBC7C74C802@DFC68LF1> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> <37439D64A3434BAB81FC2EBC7C74C802@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <402e01e70909061342t3e173bafhd7a14cb6bf733337@mail.gmail.com> http://lesswrong.com/lw/kv/beware_of_stephen_j_gould/ -- Eliezer Yudkowsky Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 7 19:43:45 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 15:43:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cyril Burt In-Reply-To: <4AA3F846.2070605@rawbw.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> <4AA3F846.2070605@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <891902B6-4579-493F-905B-67E1536638B9@bellsouth.net> On Sep 6, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Lee Corbin wrote: > You ought to read the first few pages of > "The Bell Curve". The deliberate defamation > of Cyril Burt is carefully explained. Neither of the authors of "The Bell Curve" Herrnstein and Murray, wrote one word in scientific journals about the genetic nature of intelligence or collected any data themselves, they relied entirely on other people's data, particularly that of Cyril Burt. In 1973 Herrnstein proved he was no better than Burt; in that year he published a book called "IQ in the Meritocracy" and talks about Burt's 1961 study "Intelligence and Social mobility"; he says Burt's sample size was 1000, later he says he was wrong about that and the true sample size was 40,000. In reality Burt didn't say how big his sample size was and as all his notes and raw data were burned we will never know how big it really was. We do know that both burt and Herrnstein were con men. , > It's politically completely incorrect, but > I'm surprised you haven't seen it. I think genetics is far more important to intelligence than the liberal mentality is comfortable with, but Cyril Burt was more than politically incorrect, he was plain old incorrect. Nobody is ever going to convince good scientists of something by citing terrible scientists. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 7 20:14:18 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:14:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office In-Reply-To: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Max More wrote: > Can't say I found the results surprising: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32681973/ns/health-health_care/ > > My sole experience, so far, visiting a MinuteClinic was very positive. I'm not surprised either, I just wish things would move even further in that direction. I see no reason a nurse backed up with some good medical diagnostic software couldn't do as good a job as most doctors, maybe better; it's not like the doctor personally does the blood test or performs the MRI, and if you need a X ray the nurse will do it . But the doctor still gets by far the largest paycheck. I think the only time a supremely talented human being is still needed is in surgery, other than that moderately talented is good enough. I also think it would help if all prescriptions were over the counter, including Heroin. It's interesting that in this big health care debate we're having now none of these ideas are even mentioned, nobody is asking why it's so damn expensive in the first place; all we hear is new and ever more convoluted ways for me to pay your medical bills and for you to pay my medical bills. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Sep 7 23:31:58 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:31:58 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office In-Reply-To: References: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/8 John Clark : > I'm not surprised either, I just wish things would move even further in that > direction. I see no reason a nurse backed up with some good medical > diagnostic software couldn't do as good a job as most doctors, maybe better; > it's not like the doctor personally does the blood test or performs the MRI, > and if you need a X ray the nurse will do it . But the doctor still gets by > far the largest paycheck. I think the only time a supremely talented human > being is still needed is in surgery, other than that moderately talented is > good enough. I don't know why it's thought that surgery is so hard. It's just a matter of learning how to do a procedure by practising it a lot of times. You have to be somewhat good with your hands but that's true of a lot of jobs that aren't nearly as prestigious or well-paid. The choosing of candidates for surgical training or other procedural specialities has almost nothing to do with their aptitude for doing operations, but rather with their knowledge and diagnostic ability; it is assumed that they will simply pick up how to do the mechanical part on the job. The single most important thing when you are choosing a surgeon, assuming the treatment decision has already been made, is how many operations of the type you are having he has done before. -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Sep 8 12:21:15 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:21:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office In-Reply-To: References: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <4AA64C3B.5030502@libero.it> Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/9/8 John Clark : > >> I'm not surprised either, I just wish things would move even further in that >> direction. I see no reason a nurse backed up with some good medical >> diagnostic software couldn't do as good a job as most doctors, maybe better; >> it's not like the doctor personally does the blood test or performs the MRI, >> and if you need a X ray the nurse will do it . But the doctor still gets by >> far the largest paycheck. I think the only time a supremely talented human >> being is still needed is in surgery, other than that moderately talented is >> good enough. > I don't know why it's thought that surgery is so hard. Because people usually don't know how to do it. They never try to do it. It is the same with people don't knowing how Personal computer work, they believe it is difficult, > It's just a > matter of learning how to do a procedure by practicing it a lot of > times. Exactly. Famous surgeons tell that "monkey can be trained to do surgeries". It is all about learning procedures: how cut something, how sew something, etc. There is not much to "think" about. Only do them, many, many times until perfection. I know there are, out there, one or more software intended to be used by surgeons and students to refine their skills simulating procedures and their outcome. What would happen if someone, someday, put out a game called "surgery room", where players are able to simulate different procedures as they are now able to simulate the cockpit of an F16 and different missions? Add to it a state of the art cyber-glove able to simulate the resistance of different tissues. What would be the difference from a skilled player and a skilled professional, apart a sheet in a frame on the wall? Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Sep 8 13:00:01 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:00:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office In-Reply-To: <4AA64C3B.5030502@libero.it> References: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4AA64C3B.5030502@libero.it> Message-ID: <4AA65551.2000208@libero.it> Mirco Romanato ha scritto: > I know there are, out there, one or more software intended to be used by > surgeons and students to refine their skills simulating procedures and > their outcome. > What would happen if someone, someday, put out a game called "surgery > room", where players are able to simulate different procedures as they > are now able to simulate the cockpit of an F16 and different missions? > Add to it a state of the art cyber-glove able to simulate the resistance > of different tissues. > What would be the difference from a skilled player and a skilled > professional, apart a sheet in a frame on the wall? I wrote an idea and a few moments after read about this http://gizmodo.com/5351905/bmws-augmented-reality-glasses-remake-mere-man-into-master-mechanic and this http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-09/neurosurgeons-practice-virtual-simulator-removing-brain-tumor Five years for the BMW stuff to become mainstream, ten for the virtual surgery to be implemented in a game. Mirco From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 8 15:22:50 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:22:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Conf: "Abandon Normal Devices" - Liverpool Sept 24-27 [Natasha Vita-More] Message-ID: I'll be speaking / debating at the Abandon Normal Devices http://www.andfestival.org.uk/siteNorm/home.php on September 26th. http://andfestival.co.uk/siteNorm/programme/selectedEvent.php?qsSelectedEven tId=36 Anders Sandberg will be on September 25th http://andfestival.co.uk/siteNorm/programme/selectedEvent.php?qsSelectedEven tId=36 Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 23:40:17 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 16:40:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Japanese magnetically-mediated ice-crystal-free freezing Message-ID: Sent this to cryonet. Want youse guys to have the opportunity to comment. A post to the CI google groups list mentioned a Japanese-invented magnetic-field-mediated freezing technology which *appears* to achieved ice-crystal free -- as in perfectly(!?) vitrified -- frozen biological tissue for food preservation. http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Preservation+perfected:+CAS+benefits-a0141999040 I've only just started to Google into this. Anyone have detailed info? Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 9 03:31:25 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 22:31:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Mike Lorrey In-Reply-To: <4AA3F846.2070605@rawbw.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> <4AA3F846.2070605@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <4AA7218D.8020304@satx.rr.com> Does anyone have Mike's e-address? I can't find anything recent from him on the net. Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 05:20:31 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 14:50:31 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Mike Lorrey In-Reply-To: <4AA7218D.8020304@satx.rr.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <580930c20909040439m4e453161te7476bbe280f39c8@mail.gmail.com> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> <4AA3F846.2070605@rawbw.com> <4AA7218D.8020304@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909082220l7b88cc58hca9dba7642e859a5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/9 Damien Broderick : > Does anyone have Mike's e-address? I can't find anything recent from him on > the net. > > Damien Broderick > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > He seems to be largely or wholely responsible for "Ancapistan Capital Exchange", his details are here: http://www.ace-exchange.com/content/contactus (scroll down to the "RL Contact") -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 09:27:13 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 10:27:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Mike Lorrey In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909082220l7b88cc58hca9dba7642e859a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090903191529.c72o5lftb4g4oogk@webmail.natasha.cc> <63455EE7380040E89F2975DCC5ABA220@DFC68LF1> <580930c20909040852w43051223sfa1ce9c0bffed97@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909041414r1f9e0a3fi5862686ce0d799dc@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3CA24.20204@rawbw.com> <4AA3F846.2070605@rawbw.com> <4AA7218D.8020304@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0909082220l7b88cc58hca9dba7642e859a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/9/09, Emlyn wrote: > He seems to be largely or wholly responsible for "Ancapistan Capital > Exchange", his details are here: > > http://www.ace-exchange.com/content/contactus (scroll down to the "RL Contact") > Quote: Second Life's popularity disappeared when although their banking system collapsed in summer 2007. The banking collapse was a reaction to Second Life being forced to close down gambling facilities in their virtual world in July 2007. In particular, the fact that Second Life allowed real commerce to be transacted by converting real US dollars to virtual dollars, meant that everyone started to test commerce in virtual worlds through the service. For example, several banks invested in major projects in Second Life, including ING, Wells Fargo, SAXO Bank and Deutsche Bank. However, several banks also operated in Second Life that were managed by guys in their bedrooms. These included banks such as Ginko Bank, run by a Brazilian chap at home. etc........... BillK From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Sep 9 14:49:21 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 09:49:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] FW: h+ Magazine Fall Edition -- YOU are the Doll Message-ID: <66095C3BA4B14B1C9F46B2783AF93050@DFC68LF1> h+ magazine (R.U. and Betterhuman's (James Clement)) is now available. www.hplusmagazine.com/magazine Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More _____ From: R. U. Sirius [mailto:Sirioso at Yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 12:16 PM To: R. U. Sirius Subject: h+ Magazine Fall Edition -- YOU are the Doll The Fall Issue of h+ magazine is now online: featuring Erik Davis on Dollhouse, Tweaking Your Neurons, The Psychedelic Transhumanists, S,,, ex and the Singularity, Jonathan Coulton's Inner Squid, and more. The print edition will be available at newsstands everywhere at the end of September. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: att44ebe.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 9 17:03:44 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:03:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] astro-porn Message-ID: <4AA7DFF0.6060509@satx.rr.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8247245.stm pix from upgraded Hubble From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 17:16:04 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 13:16:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] astro-porn In-Reply-To: <4AA7DFF0.6060509@satx.rr.com> References: <4AA7DFF0.6060509@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8247245.stm > > pix from upgraded Hubble So one of the upgrades was a star filter (no pun intended)? Anyone know where to get big, unretouched Hubble images? -Dave From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 18:10:30 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 19:10:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] astro-porn In-Reply-To: References: <4AA7DFF0.6060509@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 9/9/09, Dave Sill wrote: > So one of the upgrades was a star filter (no pun intended)? Anyone > know where to get big, unretouched Hubble images? > Now that's a tricky question. How about ?? Ah, yes. Here they are: ;) BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 9 18:33:31 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 13:33:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] astro-porn In-Reply-To: References: <4AA7DFF0.6060509@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4AA7F4FB.5030803@satx.rr.com> On 9/9/2009 1:10 PM, BillK wrote: > This is *obviously* a space snake: Why are they hiding this terrifying news from us! How come it hasn't been on Coast 2 Coast yet???!!! From kanzure at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 22:07:10 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 17:07:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Existing regulations apply? (DIYbio article in the Economist) In-Reply-To: <670d43a0-e3c5-4e94-acf8-9f74321a95d6@o9g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> References: <91017e83-2a06-43f0-9eee-3ec852872ee2@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <670d43a0-e3c5-4e94-acf8-9f74321a95d6@o9g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70909091507x17c37dk910e90a9943f2253@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM, JonathanCline wrote: > On Sep 9, 1:13?am, Tito wrote: >> A big quote in the article states: >> "The right way to regulate biohacking may not be apparent for some >> time". >> > >> Why or why not? Analogies from other industries? > > The "right way to regulate" would definitely include a third-party non- > governmental agency which acts as a human rights watchdog and > representative to Wash DC. ?Like the Electronic Frontier Foundation > does for technology, software, digital rights, etc today. Unfortunately only about four of us here know or understand the EFF. Biohackers not knowing that they need an EFF is an even bigger concern because they might jump the gun and suggest some less-useful system and that (less useful system) might get implemented :-(. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 10 02:13:47 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:13:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] more self-pimping Message-ID: <4AA860DB.2010102@satx.rr.com> Two updated and long-overdue reprints today, courtesy of Warren Lapine's Fantastic Books: THE DREAMING (sans terminal DRAGONS from the title; there are no dragons in the book, although there are some intelligent feathered dinosaurs)-- THE JUDAS MANDALA-- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1604598182/ Both with vivid covers by extrope Anders Sandberg. Damien Broderick From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 13:44:14 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:44:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office In-Reply-To: <4AA65551.2000208@libero.it> References: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4AA64C3B.5030502@libero.it> <4AA65551.2000208@libero.it> Message-ID: <62c14240909100644l29541c67p4526fb9f71ecf3f5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Mirco Romanato wrote: > http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-09/neurosurgeons-practice-virtual-simulator-removing-brain-tumor > > Five years for the BMW stuff to become mainstream, ten for the virtual > surgery to be implemented in a game. I played the game "Operation" when I was a kid - didn't like the fact that touching the sides of the incision caused the patient's nose to turn red and make a disturbing noise. :) Perhaps your idea was for a higher resolution version? Something like Dr. Mario was to pharmacists? From kanzure at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 15:14:28 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:14:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Open Manufacturing] Re: Solar powered RepRaps create food, medicine, cloth, soap In-Reply-To: <4AA91691.2000006@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <3a3a18220909100748k7e26527dkd0253fa9afe99432@mail.gmail.com> <4AA91691.2000006@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70909100814i5a30875aw9b1ede385441ddcb@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul D. Fernhout Date: Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 10:09 AM Subject: [Open Manufacturing] Re: Solar powered RepRaps create food, medicine, cloth, soap To: openmanufacturing at googlegroups.com Patrick Anderson wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 6:56 AM, Bryan Bishop wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Patrick Anderson wrote: >>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote: >>>> Do we have a formal definition of open manufacturing? >>>> >>>> My take: >>>> >>>> Any system of production whereby knowledge and designs are shared freely so >>>> innovation can flow in the whole system. >>> So Open Manufacturing is purely about the design side of things. >> Wrong. Manufacturing is the actual bridge between bits and atoms. >> That's why fablabs are run by the Center for Bits and Atoms, for >> instance. Ever wonder about that? > > Fablabs are trying to instantiate designs of fancy new things we don't > really need. > > What about food, medicine, cloth, soap? > > Plants and animals are the RepRaps of those basic needs, and yet we > (the people) still have not even figured out how to co-own those > (mostly (see Monsanto)) open designs. > > We don't need lasers and robots when we don't even have beans! > > People are starving on this planet, and it is not because of lack of > new technology. ?Governments pay farmers to NOT grow. > > Co-ownership of Physical Sources required for instantiation is what > Open Manufacturing lacks. ?Designs are a dime/dozen. There's some truth to what you say -- there is plenty of food, it is just some people have no money so the market doesn't hear their needs. A basic income would solve that though, and whether we get a basic income is somewhat related to better technology making that need more obvious. Not entirely though, since we could have one now. It is that the technical changes might make the social changes easier for more people to accept or prefer. But, on design, please point me to a good open design for an agricultural robot I can mostly RepRap and otherwise easily recycle? :-) We have an infrastructure designed with cetralazation in mind. Open designs could be part of a large movement to use analysis tools to see how the open designs can fit together into open societies. That was my hope for many years: ? http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/need.htm "Self-replicating technical artifacts such as dogs, corn, and trees have been in use by humanity for thousands of years. While humans cannot lay credit to the original creation of such systems, they can claim the adaptation and selective breeding of these for defense, food, and building materials. In the past few millennia, many people have become dependent on technology that is not self-replicating. Primarily this technology involves fairly pure forms of metals, plastics, and crystals. These technologies have expanded the earth's human carrying capacity in the short term, but are not sustainable in the long term. Such technologies lack the closed resource cycles, independent operation, redundancy, and resiliency found in natural systems. A symptom of the use of such non-sustainable systems is the fear that a single problem (like Y2K) could cause a major disruption of life-support infrastructure in the developed world. ... In a long-term space mission or a space settlement, a self-sustaining economy must be created and supported. Therefore, addressing the problem of technological fragility on earth is an essential step in the development of the development of human settlement in space. The heart of any community is its library, which stores a wide variety of technological processes, only some of which are used at any one time in any specific environment. If an independent community is like a cell, its library is like its DNA. A library has many functions: the education of new community members; the support of important activities such as farming and material extraction; historical recording of events; support for planning and design. And the library grows and evolves with the community. The earth's library of technological knowledge is fragmented and obscure, and some important knowledge has been lost already. How can we create a library strong enough to foster the growth of new communities in space? How can we today use what we know to improve human life? ... It is the aim of this project to create an open-source community centered around applications and knowledge related to space settlement. To gain the broadest participation, the project will also include knowledge related to terrestrial settlements. The initial focus will be on collecting "manufacturing recipes" on how to make things: for example, how to make a 1930's style lathe. Information collected will range from historical interest (fabrication techniques of the stone age to make flint knives) to current (fabrication techniques to make stainless steel knives) to futuristic (fabrication techniques requiring nanotechnology to make diamond knives). This project will involve potentially hundreds of thousands of individuals across the globe. It is expected that ultimately millions of individuals (many in developing nations) will benefit from use of this database directly or indirectly. ... The Oscomak project is an attempt to create a core of communities more in control of their technological destiny and its social implications. No single design for a community or technology will please everyone, or even many people. Nor would a single design be likely to survive. So this project endeavors to gather information and to develop tools and processes that all fit together conceptually like Tinkertoys or Legos. The result will be a library of possibilities that individuals in a community can use to achieve any degree of self-sufficiency and self-replication within any size community, from one person to a billion people. Within every community people will interact with these possibilities by using them and extending them to design a community economy and physical layout that suits their needs and ideas. ... Key to the whole endeavor will be to present everything in a how-to fashion. Also needed is a way to map out and simulate the interrelations of processes; for instance, sheep raising requires veterinarians, antibiotics, feed, fencing, and shears; shears require a blacksmith, metal, and a furnace. This latter feature also would be used to keep track of the product flows into, out of, and within a community's entire economy." And a dozen years before that: ? http://www.pdfernhout.net/princeton-graduate-school-plans.html ? http://www.pdfernhout.net/sunrise-sustainable-technology-ventures.html But alas, my life has been too filled since with distractions and confusions and other limits for the past twenty-something years. But, I guess I should be very happy for some of the distractions and confusions and limits, like family. :-) But, I am very glad to see groups like Appropedia and many others (yes, SKDB :-) going in that direction. The energy of youth. :-) By the way, for beans: ? http://www.seedsavers.org/Details.aspx?itemNo=1441 "A truly unique development for snap beans. The result of a life-long passion of bean breeding by the late Robert Lobitz (1941-2006). A stabilized cross between a purple snap bean and a pinto. Best described as dusty red-rose, pods are 4-5" long, well flavored and free of strings. Bush habit, 52-58 days." So, SeedSavers is one of several "open source" repositories for seeds. :-) Ideally they would be a thousand times bigger as a movement, like the process once was of farmers and gardeners sharing seeds. --Paul Fernhout http://www.pdfernhout.net/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Open Manufacturing" group. To post to this group, send email to openmanufacturing at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to openmanufacturing+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From max at maxmore.com Thu Sep 10 15:00:19 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:00:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Pigeon beats Internet firm in data transfer race Message-ID: <200909101527.n8AFRBNQ020001@andromeda.ziaspace.com> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32772500/ns/world_news-weird_news/ Sometimes the old ways are best... but only if you're stuck with a really crappy Internet service provider. I'm impressed by the pigeon's speed, maintained over more than an hour. The story should have revealed the capacity of the data card carried by the bird. Max From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Sep 10 16:31:52 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:31:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office In-Reply-To: <62c14240909100644l29541c67p4526fb9f71ecf3f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4AA64C3B.5030502@libero.it> <4AA65551.2000208@libero.it> <62c14240909100644l29541c67p4526fb9f71ecf3f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA929F8.5010005@libero.it> Mike Dougherty ha scritto: > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Mirco Romanato wrote: >> http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-09/neurosurgeons-practice-virtual-simulator-removing-brain-tumor >> Five years for the BMW stuff to become mainstream, ten for the virtual >> surgery to be implemented in a game. > I played the game "Operation" when I was a kid - didn't like the fact > that touching the sides of the incision caused the patient's nose to > turn red and make a disturbing noise. :) Perhaps your idea was for a > higher resolution version? Higher and more challenging. You start with a tutorial, then you continue with increasing difficult procedures. Ten years; the input devices would be good enough to give a realistic force feedback and the models of internal anatomy much more developed and detailed. Alone, a player could play any role in a surgery room (surgeon, anesthetist, ...) or they could setup a MultiPlayer where people could simulate a surgery room. > Something like Dr. Mario was to pharmacists? I don't understand this reference. Mirco From max at maxmore.com Thu Sep 10 16:45:00 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:45:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why Catholics Should Support the Transhumanist Goal of Extended Life Message-ID: <200909101645.n8AGj6ds009643@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Thanks to Fabio (Estropico), I was able to contribute a short talk (translated to Italian) to be delivered to a Catholic conference on "The idea of earthly immortality: a new challenge for theology". I had only a few days notice, so the contribution is fairly brief and probably missed some points, but I'm grateful to Fabio for the opportunity to help develop some early buds of transhumanist pondering among Catholics. The conference website (in Italian): http://www.diocesipistoia.it/news.asp?id_news=70&lingua=ITA My talk http://strategicphilosophy.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 23:20:15 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:20:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Pigeon beats Internet firm in data transfer race In-Reply-To: <200909101527.n8AFRBNQ020001@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909101527.n8AFRBNQ020001@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <62c14240909101620q74c4ba70q61aced7d9c63741c@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Max More wrote: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32772500/ns/world_news-weird_news/ > > Sometimes the old ways are best... but only if you're stuck with a really > crappy Internet service provider. > > I'm impressed by the pigeon's speed, maintained over more than an hour. > > The story should have revealed the capacity of the data card carried by the > bird. thus: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html (A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers) From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 23:25:27 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:25:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Study: Retail health clinics as good as doc office In-Reply-To: <4AA929F8.5010005@libero.it> References: <200909051604.n85G4twq018652@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4AA64C3B.5030502@libero.it> <4AA65551.2000208@libero.it> <62c14240909100644l29541c67p4526fb9f71ecf3f5@mail.gmail.com> <4AA929F8.5010005@libero.it> Message-ID: <62c14240909101625gbf2ad42u9c93457d64dbd112@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Mirco Romanato wrote: > Mike Dougherty ha scritto: >> Something like Dr. Mario was to pharmacists? > > I don't understand this reference. haha... you probably had better things to do with your time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Mario_(video_game) From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Sep 11 11:19:42 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:19:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Pigeon beats Internet firm in data transfer race In-Reply-To: <62c14240909101620q74c4ba70q61aced7d9c63741c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909101527.n8AFRBNQ020001@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <62c14240909101620q74c4ba70q61aced7d9c63741c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AAA324E.90905@libero.it> Mike Dougherty ha scritto: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Max More wrote: >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32772500/ns/world_news-weird_news/ >> >> Sometimes the old ways are best... but only if you're stuck with a really >> crappy Internet service provider. >> >> I'm impressed by the pigeon's speed, maintained over more than an hour. >> >> The story should have revealed the capacity of the data card carried by the >> bird. > > thus: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html (A Standard for the > Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers) These are old news, the state of the art is SNAP (SNAil-based data transfer Protocol). http://www.notes.co.il/benbasat/10991.asp > Technology Kbps > V.34 modem 28.8 > ISDN 128 > ADSL 1500 > Pigeons 2270 > SNAP 37,000 Mirco From pjmanney at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 16:11:51 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 09:11:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Shameless promotion Message-ID: <29666bf30909110911l1fd06685r6d9225d8b158dee8@mail.gmail.com> If you are in or near Toronto this week, please come see BITCH SLAP at the Toronto International Film Festival at their legendary Midnight Madness screenings: http://www.tiff.net/filmsandschedules/films/bitchslap BITCH SLAP contains a small and humorous nanotech subplot, which will spin out into the sequels, plus stars who epitomize Hollywood human enhancement better than any cyborg lab, bringing it within spitting distance of pertinence to this list and proof that my husband's desk was indeed next to mine... ;-) I promise a wild and woolly roller coaster ride! I'll be at Monday night's premiere screening, so if you are there, please say hi. Enjoy! PJ Manney From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 11 17:42:01 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:42:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] forget the White House lawn landing Message-ID: <4AAA8BE9.6010802@satx.rr.com> Student hoax? Movie viral? Reality TV? From eschatoon at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 17:47:01 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:47:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The telepathic communication era Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909111047i3b935d20tdeb5c5c9a22fd19e@mail.gmail.com> A short article on BCI that I just wrote for a Spanish magazine. The Spanish translation belongs to the journal but the English original is mine. Enjoy, FYC http://cosmi2le.com/index.php?/site/the_telepathic_communication_era/ Many people, including me, are now used to be always online. With my smartphone powered by Google?s Android operating system, I am used to send and receive email and IMs anytime, from anywhere. It is easy to see how this trend will evolve: most routine computing applications will migrate to smartphones, the coverage and bandwidth of wireless networks will go up, and their price will go down. In only a few years, we will be used to be permanently plugged in the global Internet, and of course the user interfaces will improve. For example, as described by the visionary science fiction author Charlie Stross in his novel Halting State, augmented reality technology based on smart glasses will soon permit overcoming the limitations due to the small size of phones. A first generation of suitable smart glasses is already available, but there is something much better on the horizon: instant telepathic communication. A few months ago a researcher sent a telepathic message to Twitter by thinking it, using his brain as a computer input device via the neural interfacing system BCI2000. The first message says just ?SENT FROM BCI2000? and the second message is only a bit more explicit: ?USING EEG TO SEND TWEET? but the brain wave Twitter moment has been compared to to a modern equivalent of the historical Alexander Graham Bell?s ?Mr. Watson, come here. I want to see you.? message, The company Emotiv Systems launched, earlier this year, a commercial neural interface called EPOC, able to detect the user?s thought and translate them to commands understandable by computer programs. The company?s website has video clips showing users controlling videogames by thought alone. We can safely say that the year 2009 has marked the birth of the era of telepathic communication. If you are not a passionate hacker, don?t rush to the electronics store though: these Brain-Computer Interface (BCI) devices have still years of development to go before reaching operational maturity: the historical Twitter message took several minutes to compose and send, so don?t plan to write a long love or business telepathic letter just yet. Similarly, the EPOC interface only permits very basic actions in videogames and virtual worlds at this moment, and in controlled conditions. But, of course, this will change fast. There is money to make with the countless applications of BCI technology, and our understanding of the brain, though still very limited, has already reached a critical mass. These two facts will ensure the fast development of operational, commercial BCI technology: today?s slow baby-talk between the brain and the computer will give place to very fast and precise communication. And since computers are linked by the Internet, also their users? minds will be linked by the Internet: yesterday?s slowly typed SMS will be replaced by tomorrow?s instant, long telepathic messages. BCI technology, originated in military programs and medical research including clinical trials with severely disabled patients, is finding its way to the commercial marketplace. Today, smartphones are replacing desktop and notebook computers, but perhaps they are only a stepping stone towards tomorrow?s ultimate wearable computer: the computing device implanted directly in the brain. The team led by Ted Berger, described as The Memory Hacker by Popular Science, has spent the past decade engineering prototype memory chips that can be implanted directly in the brain. This is still very experimental research, but I think it will advance fast and reach operational maturity within the next couple of decades. Nobody has seen and described the convergence of these trends better than Ben Goertzel, one of the world?s leading experts in Artificial Intelligence. In an article titled Brain-Computer Interfacing: From Prosthetic Limbs to Telepathy Chips, Goertzel writes: ?Scientists are exploring multiple radical brain imaging technologies, including devices involving carbon nanotubes and other nanotech-based materials, which seem to play more nicely with brain cells than conventional materials? And in time, even more fascinating possibilities may be realized. Consider the ?telepathy chip??a neural implant that allows the wearer to project their thoughts or feelings to others, and receive thoughts or feelings from others.?. Everyone?s mind will be permanently linked to the wireless Internet, and through the Internet to everyone else?s mind. This will trigger very radical changes. In particular telepathic groups?able to instantly share and elaborate thoughts?will produce an enormous acceleration in the development and deployment of new ideas, and cause the emergence of ?group minds?. And once neural communication is sufficiently deep, accurate and fast, it will be possible to transfer the informational content of a person?s brain, with memories, thoughts and feelings, to a higher performance storage and processing device. This ?mind uploading? technology may eventually provide practical immortality. -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 18:02:53 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:02:53 -0300 Subject: [ExI] forget the White House lawn landing References: <4AAA8BE9.6010802@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <88A0460123DC4EBFB4D3D11D278978EF@Notebook> 40 minutes? One would expect that after 20 minutes or so whatching the thing hovering, someone would show up with a decent tripod mounted camera, with a decent zoom. So we would have decent images instad of the same old blurry-shaky. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:42 PM Subject: [ExI] forget the White House lawn landing > > > Student hoax? Movie viral? Reality TV? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 11 18:16:08 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:16:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] forget the White House lawn landing In-Reply-To: <88A0460123DC4EBFB4D3D11D278978EF@Notebook> References: <4AAA8BE9.6010802@satx.rr.com> <88A0460123DC4EBFB4D3D11D278978EF@Notebook> Message-ID: <4AAA93E8.8000805@satx.rr.com> On 9/11/2009 1:02 PM, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > One would expect that after 20 minutes or so whatching the thing > hovering, someone would show up with a decent tripod mounted camera, > with a decent zoom. One would. Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 18:22:22 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:22:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The telepathic communication era In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909111047i3b935d20tdeb5c5c9a22fd19e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909111047i3b935d20tdeb5c5c9a22fd19e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/09, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Everyone?s mind will be permanently linked to the wireless Internet, > and through the Internet to everyone else?s mind. This will trigger > very radical changes. In particular telepathic groups?able to > instantly share and elaborate thoughts?will produce an enormous > acceleration in the development and deployment of new ideas, and cause > the emergence of ?group minds?. And once neural communication is > sufficiently deep, accurate and fast, it will be possible to transfer > the informational content of a person?s brain, with memories, thoughts > and feelings, to a higher performance storage and processing device. > This ?mind uploading? technology may eventually provide practical > immortality. > Now just slow down there for a minute. :) I have always found that the biggest problem with telepathy is building firewalls against the torrent of drivel, nonsense, coercion, etc. streaming out from neighboring minds. Twitter is a bad example to use. It is mostly a broadcast system with a few users producing most of the tweets. Quote: Micro-blogging service Twitter remains the preserve of a few, despite the hype surrounding it, according to research. Just 10% of Twitter users generate more than 90% of the content, a Harvard study of 300,000 users found. ------------ And another analysis showed that only 8.7% of tweets had 'value' content. Quote: A short-term study of Twitter has found that 40% of the messages sent via it are "pointless babble." Almost as prevalent as the babble were "conversational" tweets that used it as a surrogate instant messaging system. The study found that only 8.7% of messages could be said to have "value" as they passed along news of interest. -------------------- 'Telepathic' groups are more likely to degenerate very quickly into random noise, with your 'deep thinkers' disconnecting in self-preservation. Mailing lists are bad enough - and there you have time to think before posting a response! Just imagine what an instant mailing list would be like, with everyone shouting simultaneously. Oh, I forgot. We have that already. It's called Usenet (or forums). Without a very aggressive moderator, just forget it. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 18:57:35 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:57:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] forget the White House lawn landing In-Reply-To: <4AAA8BE9.6010802@satx.rr.com> References: <4AAA8BE9.6010802@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > Student hoax? Movie viral? Reality TV? > Students having a bit of fun. The news report has gone all round the world, lapped up by the 'Gee whiz - a UFO!' press. First there was a mis-translation from a Chinese news report. The observatory scientists were filming the solar eclipse (using proper cameras even!) for about 40 minutes. For around one minute in the film there was a bright spot near the sun which the lead scientist said he didn't know what it was, but thought it was probably a star. The news report ignored the bit about one minute and probably a star and proclaimed 'Unknown object found in 40 minutes film by Chinese scientists'. When a bunch of students read this laughably false report, they immediately launched a party balloon and filmed it on their shaky mobile phones and gave the pictures to the over-excited journos. Note: The pictures of the party balloon are NOT the bright spot that the scientists were talking about. If you read Chinese: (well Google does) or an English report BillK From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Sat Sep 12 02:07:56 2009 From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:07:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The telepathic communication era In-Reply-To: References: <1fa8c3b90909111047i3b935d20tdeb5c5c9a22fd19e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AAB027C.8000300@canonizer.com> On 9/11/09, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > >> Everyone?s mind will be permanently linked to the wireless Internet, >> and through the Internet to everyone else?s mind. This will trigger >> very radical changes. In particular telepathic groups?able to >> instantly share and elaborate thoughts?will produce an enormous >> acceleration in the development and deployment of new ideas, and cause >> the emergence of ?group minds?. And once neural communication is >> sufficiently deep, accurate and fast, it will be possible to transfer >> the informational content of a person?s brain, with memories, thoughts >> and feelings, to a higher performance storage and processing device. >> This ?mind uploading? technology may eventually provide practical >> immortality. >> >> Hi Giulio, Great post, but your missing the most important possible part of this kind of mind communication or interconnection - the ability to eff the ineffable as described in the theory of consciousness camp with the most scientific consensus here: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/88/6 In other words, you'll be able to tell, via such mind connected effing, how many of your friends represent 700nm light with a different kind of phenomenal red than your brain does, and how many people represent it with the same phenomenal red as you. (as in: "Oh THAT is what red is like for you!"). And eventually this will lead to merging of our phenomenal worlds, in ways that our phenomenal knowledge of ourselves (has no referent in reality, unlike most of the rest of our phenomenal knowledge) will be able to travel into other's phenomenal worlds of awareness, and so on. Again, all as predicted by the theories described in the above camp. And as ever more experts (see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/53/11) contribute to this open survey about the best theories of consciousness, this camp continues to extend its lead in the amount of scientific consensus it has compared to all other theories of consciousness. This consensus theory also predicts what 'phenomenal uploading' will be like which will of course not only free ourselves from the mortal, veil of perception prison walls that are our skulls, but allow us to discover much more than just the behavior of the universe, and yes, of course, also become immortal. Brent Allsop From spike66 at att.net Sat Sep 12 04:42:11 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 21:42:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] happy birthday eliezer In-Reply-To: <29666bf30909110911l1fd06685r6d9225d8b158dee8@mail.gmail.com> References: <29666bf30909110911l1fd06685r6d9225d8b158dee8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D865CA1D09C492295A000A8F36725F4@spike> Best wishes to Eliezer on this day. Henceforth he can never trust himself. spike From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Sep 12 06:28:38 2009 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:28:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] happy birthday eliezer In-Reply-To: <2D865CA1D09C492295A000A8F36725F4@spike> References: <29666bf30909110911l1fd06685r6d9225d8b158dee8@mail.gmail.com> <2D865CA1D09C492295A000A8F36725F4@spike> Message-ID: I'll chime in on that, happy birthday Eliezer. I hope you had as lovely a day as a person you are. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller http://www.nanogirl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:42 PM Subject: [ExI] happy birthday eliezer > > > > Best wishes to Eliezer on this day. Henceforth he can never trust > himself. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Sep 12 15:15:12 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:15:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] happy birthday eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <29666bf30909110911l1fd06685r6d9225d8b158dee8@mail.gmail.com> <2D865CA1D09C492295A000A8F36725F4@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670909120815x6571344dx930760bca0718@mail.gmail.com> Happy Belated Birthday, Eliezer. I hope Michael Anissimov was at your celebration. I remember how much the two of you enjoy a good laugh together. Best wishes, John On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Gina Miller wrote: > I'll chime in on that, happy birthday Eliezer. I hope you had as lovely a > day as a person you are. > > Gina "Nanogirl" Miller > http://www.nanogirl.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "spike" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:42 PM > Subject: [ExI] happy birthday eliezer > > > > >> >> >> Best wishes to Eliezer on this day. Henceforth he can never trust >> himself. >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sun Sep 13 16:34:08 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:34:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] James Oberg on a flexible future for NASA Message-ID: <200909131634.n8DGYGEx027018@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Which way for NASA? A step-by-step path http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32767421/ns/technology_and_science-space/ ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From spike66 at att.net Sun Sep 13 18:08:08 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:08:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] James Oberg on a flexible future for NASA In-Reply-To: <200909131634.n8DGYGEx027018@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909131634.n8DGYGEx027018@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Max More > Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 9:34 AM > To: Extropy-Chat > Subject: [ExI] James Oberg on a flexible future for NASA > > > Which way for NASA? A step-by-step path > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32767421/ns/technology_and_science-space/ > > > ------------------------------------- > Max More, Ph.D. Thanks Max. This is a terrific essay. I and Oberg have reached the same conclusions via independent paths. I have read Oberg's material before, but this is the first time that I know of he has specifically promoted an idea I reached about 15 years ago: the future in human spaceflight will be in remotely operating surface equipment from Martian orbit. spike From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sun Sep 13 21:51:10 2009 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:51:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Me again : ) In-Reply-To: <3ABC563637EB41DFA30FE0B8DD4A3B0C@3DBOXXW4850> References: <4A948BFC.5070003@satx.rr.com> <2d6187670908252249w45b716a9g3f3c8740760b9010@mail.gmail.com><4A94D13C.50408@satx.rr.com><4A94D344.1060900@satx.rr.com> <82DEDCED6DD742EAAB04F5EA913096FC@3DBOXXW4850><4A967E23.8040808@canonizer.com><0962C87C187F48ED89AF3305E9F5C49B@3DBOXXW4850><623729E857AE49E5BCDF4765B2D179DC@3DBOXXW4850><7273E03196ED4219AA871870E7398592@3DBOXXW4850> <3ABC563637EB41DFA30FE0B8DD4A3B0C@3DBOXXW4850> Message-ID: <640CDFC6250548D68D1F63BC104BD601@3DBOXXW4850> Today should be the last day to vote my video into the community challenge (see below). Thank you everyone! It's nice to be able to count on friends : ) Gina "Nanogirl" Miller http://www.nanogirl.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gina Miller" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) > My video did not make it into the weekly semi finalist, but, you still can > vote for me to win the community challenge - by going to > http://www.youtube.com/hp then clicking the view + vote tab, but this > time, click the "community award" tab (on top of the videos /left side). > Then to find my video, you should see a search box on top of the videos on > the right, put in "Who Am I" then you'll see me (black dress blonde pony > tail). It's a long shot - we would need a lot of votes - but it might be > worth a try - you can vote once a day through Sept 13. Thank you so much - > you are all so very, very kind! > > The HP contest rules: http://tiny.cc/qYsBA > > > Gina~ > nanogirl.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gina Miller" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:43 AM > Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) > > >> Today is the last day to vote for me everyone! >> http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/2009/08/you-can-help-me-win.html >> >> I want to thank those who are helping me with their votes, THANK YOU!!!! >> Gina "Nanogirl" Miller >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gina Miller" >> To: "ExI chat list" >> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:10 PM >> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >> >> >>> We've got today and tomorrow left to vote for my animation: >>> http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/2009/08/you-can-help-me-win.html >>> Thank you everyone who is helping! >>> Gina >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Gina Miller" >>> To: "ExI chat list" >>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:55 AM >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >>> >>> >>>> Don't forget to vote for my animation again today, thank you my >>>> friends - from the bottom of my heart. >>>> http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/2009/08/you-can-help-me-win.html >>>> Gina >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Gina Miller" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:33 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Brent, no I don't see a way to view the current status either! Do you >>>>> want >>>>> me to put a reminder up here everyday? If so I can do that... I want >>>>> to >>>>> thank you for taking the time out to support me. Yours, Gina >>>>> www.nanogirl.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Brent Allsop" >>>>> To: "ExI chat list" >>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 5:37 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Gina, >>>>>> >>>>>> I didn't see any way to see scores, or how each video was doing. Is >>>>>> this >>>>>> info available? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll try to remember to vote each day till Sunday, as the rules >>>>>> allow. >>>>>> Wish I would have voted yesterday. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Gina Miller wrote: >>>>>>> Thank you so much Natasha! I really appreciate your support : ) >>>>>>> Gina >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Natasha Vita-More" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: "'ExI chat list'" >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:59 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Me again : ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done! (Nice work Gina.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gina >>>>>>>> Miller >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:21 AM >>>>>>>> To: ExI chat list >>>>>>>> Subject: [ExI] Me again : ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm so excited! My animation has been selected by Hewlett Packard >>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>> semi >>>>>>>> finalist, but to make it as a finalist, I need your votes! You need >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> registered at youtube (which is free) >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/create_account >>>>>>>> then make sure you are signed in and go to >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/hp - >>>>>>>> (to >>>>>>>> make sure you are signed in look at the very right top corner of >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> page >>>>>>>> to see your user name.) Then up at the top you will see a row of >>>>>>>> blue >>>>>>>> tabs, >>>>>>>> click the "view + vote" tab, you will see my video there among >>>>>>>> others. I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> wearing a black dress with my blonde pony tail down the front of >>>>>>>> me, the >>>>>>>> video is called "Who Am I". Click this picture icon to see my >>>>>>>> video. It >>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>> video about my being a computer animator. After my video pops up >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> see on the right side of it that there is a thumbs up and a thumbs >>>>>>>> down, >>>>>>>> thumbs up is what you want to click to give me your vote. You are >>>>>>>> allowed to >>>>>>>> vote one time a day, all the way through (and including) Sunday. >>>>>>>> However >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> are not allowed to vote more than once a day as it is against the >>>>>>>> rules. >>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>> please feel free to spread the word to your friends and family as >>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>> vote >>>>>>>> counts! The prize is 40 thousand dollars and considering my current >>>>>>>> financial situation you can imagine this would be a wonderful prize >>>>>>>> indeed. >>>>>>>> Please vote for me every day and I thank you so kindly for it. >>>>>>>> Thank >>>>>>>> you, >>>>>>>> thank you, thank you so very much!!! I appreciate my fellow >>>>>>>> extropians >>>>>>>> always supporting me lo these many years. Yours, Gina "Nanogirl" >>>>>>>> Miller >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gina "Nanogirl" Miller >>>>>>>> Nanotechnology Industries >>>>>>>> http://www.nanoindustries.com >>>>>>>> Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com >>>>>>>> Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: >>>>>>>> http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Senior Associate >>>>>>>> http://www.foresight.org >>>>>>>> Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com >>>>>>>> "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 14 00:33:47 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:33:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] James Oberg on a flexible future for NASA References: <200909131634.n8DGYGEx027018@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <6217C23615B7469DA8E381416A831014@spike> ... > > Which way for NASA? A step-by-step path > > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32767421/ns/technology_and_science-space/ > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > Max More, Ph.D. > > > Thanks Max. This is a terrific essay. I and Oberg have > reached the same conclusions via independent paths... spike My earier comment should not be taken as my agreement with everything Oberg says in there. One paragraph in particular I would take exception, the part where he talks about astronauts operating robots on the surface of the moon from lunar orbit. With this I mostly disagree, for in every calculation I have attempted, I have never been able to justify the complication and cost of keeping proles up there just to eliminate the 1.5 second latency in operating the same lunar surface robots from good old home base. We can operate robots 1.5 seconds away. On the other hand, operating surface robots from Martian synchronous orbit is justifiable, for a bunch of reasons. The 2 to 15 minute drive from Earth to Mars makes it wildly difficult to operate robots from here. Also the solar radiation dose to the astronaut is only about a quarter in Mars orbit of what it would be in the lunar orbit. So I have long ago concluded the way is insert into Mars orbit, one astronaut, stay until the orbits of Mars and Earth again allow, return, total mission time about three and a half years, total delta vee required isn't all that much higher than we did for the Apollo missions. Start with a small, young and light enough astronaut, good chance she would not suffer permanent damage to her health. I might contact James about this. He is a personal acquaintance, after we met at a conference about 12 years ago. spike From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 08:02:47 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:02:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] James Oberg on a flexible future for NASA In-Reply-To: <6217C23615B7469DA8E381416A831014@spike> References: <200909131634.n8DGYGEx027018@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <6217C23615B7469DA8E381416A831014@spike> Message-ID: On 9/14/09, spike wrote: > My earier comment should not be taken as my agreement with everything > Oberg says in there. One paragraph in particular I would take exception, the > part where he talks about astronauts operating robots on the surface of the > moon from lunar orbit. With this I mostly disagree, for in every calculation I > have attempted, I have never been able to justify the complication and cost > of keeping proles up there just to eliminate the 1.5 second latency in > operating the same lunar surface robots from good old home base. We can > operate robots 1.5 seconds away. > > On the other hand, operating surface robots from Martian synchronous orbit > is justifiable, for a bunch of reasons. The 2 to 15 minute drive from Earth > to Mars makes it wildly difficult to operate robots from here. Also the > solar radiation dose to the astronaut is only about a quarter in Mars orbit > of what it would be in the lunar orbit. > > So I have long ago concluded the way is insert into Mars orbit, one > astronaut, stay until the orbits of Mars and Earth again allow, return, > total mission time about three and a half years, total delta vee required > isn't all that much higher than we did for the Apollo missions. Start with > a small, young and light enough astronaut, good chance she would not suffer > permanent damage to her health. > Speed of light - 299792 km/sec. Distance to Mars - 55 to 401 million kilometers. Transmission time - 3 to 22 minutes. Round trip transmission - 6 to 44 minutes. (plus thinking time) Distance to Moon - 363300 to 405500 km Transmission time - 1.2 to 1.35 secs. Round trip time - 2.4 to 2.7 secs. (plus thinking time) Considering the many years and much expense that it will take to develop a manned expedition to Mars, I suspect that by the time the expedition is ready to go our exploration robots will be able to manage quite nicely by themselves without human intervention. And even if we lose a few robots due to accidents, then no problem, there's plenty more. BillK From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 14 20:26:44 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:26:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: References: <200909131634.n8DGYGEx027018@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <6217C23615B7469DA8E381416A831014@spike> Message-ID: <96B6E535-80BD-4511-B73E-55908502C343@bellsouth.net> Norman Borlaug is dead. It could be argued that nobody in the entire history of the Human Race has saved more lives than he did; I would certainly have a very hard time coming up with a better candidate. Norman Borlaug was not a poet or a mystic or a writer of platitudes or a religious figure of any sort, Norman Borlaug was a scientist. I like that. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Mon Sep 14 21:25:28 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug Message-ID: <35664.56878.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Norman Borlaug is dead. It could be argued that nobody in the entire history of the Human Race has saved more lives than he did; I would certainly have a very hard time coming up with a better candidate. Pasteur? ?Norman Borlaug was not a poet or a mystic or a writer of platitudes or a religious figure of any sort, Norman Borlaug was a scientist. I like that. Religious charities have saved very many lives after catastrophes, at a fraction of comparable govt relief. We like that, too. ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Sep 14 22:22:27 2009 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: <96B6E535-80BD-4511-B73E-55908502C343@bellsouth.net> References: <200909131634.n8DGYGEx027018@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <6217C23615B7469DA8E381416A831014@spike> <96B6E535-80BD-4511-B73E-55908502C343@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <55034.12.77.169.60.1252966947.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > Norman Borlaug is dead. It could be argued that nobody in the entire > history of the Human Race has saved more lives than he did; I would > certainly have a very hard time coming up with a better candidate. > Norman Borlaug was not a poet or a mystic or a writer of platitudes or > a religious figure of any sort, Norman Borlaug was a scientist. I like > that. > I was happy to re-read the article in Reason, the interview from some years back. http://www.reason.com/news/show/27665.html The rest of us would be hard pressed to do anything like as much with our lives, IMHO. Regards, MB From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Sep 14 22:45:19 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:45:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Turing gets an apology In-Reply-To: References: <1fa8c3b90909111047i3b935d20tdeb5c5c9a22fd19e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AAEC77F.4050802@satx.rr.com> Btw, sorry we killed you: Alan Turing: British PM apologises Monday, 14 September 2009 by John Pickrell with AFP Cosmos Online LONDON: British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has issued a posthumous apology to World War II code breaker Alan Turing, who committed suicide after he was tried and convicted of being a homosexual. Turing, often hailed for his influence in modern computing, was one of the key figures involved in cracking Nazi German codes. Brown said Turing, who took his own life in 1954, had been treated "terribly", adding that the outcome of the conflict could have been quite different without the code-breaker's efforts. Brilliant mathematician "Turing was a quite brilliant mathematician, most famous for his work on breaking the German Enigma codes," he wrote. "It is no exaggeration to say that, without his outstanding contribution, the history of the Second World War could have been very different." You may have heard of the 'Turing test', but you may not know much about Turing himself. The idea behind the test is that we'll know a computer has achieved true intelligence when a human questioning it is unable to tell whether they are conversing with a machine or another person. The idea for the test was just one of Turing's many contributions to the fields of computer science and artificial intelligence. Perhaps his greatest contribution, however, was to the war effort. He worked as a cryptographer at the British government's Bletchley Park facility during World War II and contributed to cracking the codes of the German Enigma devices used to encrypt military communications. Deplorable treatment Some experts suggest that Turing may personally be responsible for having hastened the German's defeat by an entire year. That's why the way he was subsequently treated by the British government is so deplorable. Turing was prosecuted for gross indecency in 1952 after admitting to a relationship with another man. Following this, he was given chemical castration and his security privileges were revoked. In 1954 he took his own life with a poisoned apple. Several weeks ago, a petition was been launched [sic] in Britain asking the government to offer a posthumous apology for the way he was persecuted. The petition, created by computer scientist John Graham-Cumming, has now collected over 31,000 signatures, including evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and writer Ian McEwan. Graham-Cumming told the BBC he didn't expect the government to issue an apology, but "felt Turing was getting overlooked as being a British genius and that there was a blind spot in the public eye about an important man." An official British government apology was not possible because Turing has no known surviving family, the U.K.'s Daily Telegraph newspaper reported. However Brown was able to offer an informal apology in that newspaper. Writing in the paper, Brown said: "On behalf of the British government, and all those who live freely thanks to Alan's work, I am very proud to say: we're sorry. You deserved so much better." "Debt of gratitude" "The debt of gratitude he is owed makes it all the more horrifying, therefore, that he was treated so inhumanely," he continued. "His sentence - and he was faced with the miserable choice of this or prison - was chemical castration by a series of injections of female hormones. He took his own life just two years later." "It was one of the worst individual injustices of our time," wrote one Daily Telegraph blogger. "This is about humanity acknowledging a grievous wrong to an entire body of people whose lives and liberties were diminished by ignorance and prejudice." From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Sep 14 22:51:59 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:51:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: <35664.56878.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <35664.56878.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it> Post Futurist ha scritto: > Norman Borlaug was not a poet or a mystic or a writer of platitudes > or a religious figure of any sort, Norman Borlaug was a scientist. I > like that. > Religious charities have saved very many lives after catastrophes, > at a fraction of comparable govt relief. We like that, too. Well, the Green Revolution was supported by Rockfeller and Ford Foundation, two private foundation. No government money there. Mirco From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 14 23:57:19 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:57:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: <35664.56878.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <35664.56878.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 14, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Post Futurist wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 15 01:12:48 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:12:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Turing gets an apology In-Reply-To: <4AAEC77F.4050802@satx.rr.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909111047i3b935d20tdeb5c5c9a22fd19e@mail.gmail.com> <4AAEC77F.4050802@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090914211248.cy146f968owss480@webmail.natasha.cc> Heart-wrenching. Quoting Damien Broderick : > Btw, sorry we killed you: > > > > Alan Turing: British PM apologises > Monday, 14 September 2009 > > by John Pickrell with AFP > Cosmos Online > > > LONDON: British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has issued a posthumous > apology to World War II code breaker Alan Turing, who committed suicide > after he was tried and convicted of being a homosexual. > > Turing, often hailed for his influence in modern computing, was one of > the key figures involved in cracking Nazi German codes. > > Brown said Turing, who took his own life in 1954, had been treated > "terribly", adding that the outcome of the conflict could have been > quite different without the code-breaker's efforts. > > Brilliant mathematician > > "Turing was a quite brilliant mathematician, most famous for his work > on breaking the German Enigma codes," he wrote. "It is no exaggeration > to say that, without his outstanding contribution, the history of the > Second World War could have been very different." > > You may have heard of the 'Turing test', but you may not know much > about Turing himself. The idea behind the test is that we'll know a > computer has achieved true intelligence when a human questioning it is > unable to tell whether they are conversing with a machine or another > person. > > The idea for the test was just one of Turing's many contributions to > the fields of computer science and artificial intelligence. Perhaps his > greatest contribution, however, was to the war effort. > > He worked as a cryptographer at the British government's Bletchley Park > facility during World War II and contributed to cracking the codes of > the German Enigma devices used to encrypt military communications. > > Deplorable treatment > > Some experts suggest that Turing may personally be responsible for > having hastened the German's defeat by an entire year. That's why the > way he was subsequently treated by the British government is so > deplorable. > > Turing was prosecuted for gross indecency in 1952 after admitting to a > relationship with another man. Following this, he was given chemical > castration and his security privileges were revoked. In 1954 he took > his own life with a poisoned apple. > > Several weeks ago, a petition was been launched [sic] in Britain asking > the government to offer a posthumous apology for the way he was > persecuted. The petition, created by computer scientist John > Graham-Cumming, has now collected over 31,000 signatures, including > evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and writer Ian McEwan. > > Graham-Cumming told the BBC he didn't expect the government to issue an > apology, but "felt Turing was getting overlooked as being a British > genius and that there was a blind spot in the public eye about an > important man." > > An official British government apology was not possible because Turing > has no known surviving family, the U.K.'s Daily Telegraph newspaper > reported. However Brown was able to offer an informal apology in that > newspaper. Writing in the paper, Brown said: "On behalf of the British > government, and all those who live freely thanks to Alan's work, I am > very proud to say: we're sorry. You deserved so much better." > > "Debt of gratitude" > > "The debt of gratitude he is owed makes it all the more horrifying, > therefore, that he was treated so inhumanely," he continued. "His > sentence - and he was faced with the miserable choice of this or prison > - was chemical castration by a series of injections of female hormones. > He took his own life just two years later." > > "It was one of the worst individual injustices of our time," wrote one > Daily Telegraph blogger. "This is about humanity acknowledging a > grievous wrong to an entire body of people whose lives and liberties > were diminished by ignorance and prejudice." > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Tue Sep 15 01:29:01 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it> Message-ID: <128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ?Mr. Clark wrote of how Borlaug wasn't a mystic, etc; he was a scientist. Albeit, over thousands of years, religious orgs have done as much as scientists in relieving hunger. Well, the Green Revolution was supported by Rockfeller and Ford Foundation, two private foundation. No government money there. Mirco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Tue Sep 15 02:12:41 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Turing gets an apology In-Reply-To: <20090914211248.cy146f968owss480@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <48410.10788.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Not only murder; chemical castration is, fairly obviously,? tantamount to torture. No wonder no apology was given until now-- authorities wanted to put as much time as they could between Turing's murder and the apology as possible. 57 years means anyone involved in the murder is dead or half-dead. > Btw, sorry we killed you: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Sep 15 04:15:19 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:15:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Turing gets an apology In-Reply-To: <4AAEC77F.4050802@satx.rr.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909111047i3b935d20tdeb5c5c9a22fd19e@mail.gmail.com> <4AAEC77F.4050802@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Subject: [ExI] Turing gets an apology > > Btw, sorry we killed you: > > Ja thanks Damien. Perhaps it is because of Turing that so many straight math geeks are cool with homosexuality. Back in my teenage years, Turing's case was the first time I had ever heard of gay. I still didn't know what it was exactly, but if Turing was that, then it had to be OK by definition. spike From sentience at pobox.com Tue Sep 15 08:22:05 2009 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 01:22:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] happy birthday eliezer In-Reply-To: <2D865CA1D09C492295A000A8F36725F4@spike> References: <29666bf30909110911l1fd06685r6d9225d8b158dee8@mail.gmail.com> <2D865CA1D09C492295A000A8F36725F4@spike> Message-ID: <402e01e70909150122i7671209cm6253c18473c614e1@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 9:42 PM, spike wrote: > > Best wishes to Eliezer on this day. ?Henceforth he can never trust himself. I don't see why not, considering that I just celebrated my 2nd annual 29th birthday. As of this writing I've been 29 for 1 year and 4 days now. -- Eliezer Yudkowsky Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 11:40:31 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:40:31 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: <128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it> <128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/15 Post Futurist > > ?Mr. Clark wrote of how Borlaug wasn't a mystic, etc; he was a scientist. > Albeit, over thousands of years, religious orgs have done as much as scientists in relieving hunger. No they haven't. They retarded science, keeping people ignorant and hungry. Giving scraps of food to the poor won't compensate for the Dark Ages. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 12:14:50 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:14:50 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it> <128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/15 Stathis Papaioannou > No they haven't. They retarded science, keeping people ignorant and > hungry. Giving scraps of food to the poor won't compensate for the > Dark Ages. > Yes. I will not elaborate on the first part where we are in absolute agreement. I would only to add that "giving away scraps of food", as in any policy which concentrates on re-distribution only without paying too much attention to of the *production* of what is going to be distributed, does not really do much for the overall wealth of a given community. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 15 14:40:02 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:40:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Abandon Normal Devices (Liverpool, 23-27 Sept 09) Message-ID: <87FD50F59A244226A7D3C017834247E9@DFC68LF1> Dear All, The AND festival kicks off in Liverpool next week. We are running a number of debates that might appeal to WTA members. In particular, Natasha Vita-More will join us for a debate titled COMPETE and Anders Sandberg for one called INFECT. Details can be found here... http://andymiah.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/abandon-normal-devices Best wishes, Andy http://twitter.com/andymiah Promoting: http://www.ANDfestival.org.uk Professor Andy Miah, BA, MPhil, PhD, FRSA | http://www.andymiah.net / http://andymiah.wordpress.com Chair of Ethics and Emerging Technologies Faculty of Business & Creative Industries, University of the West of Scotland, Ayr Campus, KA8 0SR, UK [t] +44 7962 716 616 [e] email at andymiah.net Fellow, Foundation for Art and Creative Technology (FACT, Liverpool) / http://www.fact.co.uk Fellow, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET) | http://ieet.org 2.0: twitter, skype, flickr, facebook, slideshare, scribed, issuu, delicious, dopplr, wordpress, Publications include: The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Independent _______________________________________________ wta-talk mailing list wta-talk at transhumanism.org http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 15 16:48:44 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] happy birthday eliezer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <959795.46080.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Eliezer, don't worry - "Never trust anyone over 30" is such an old-fashioned John Lennon way of thinking, most young transhumanists prefer "Never trust anyone who hasn't changed physical state in over a gigasecond" (from Accelerando), so you have a little while yet to upload or majorly cyborgise yourself. Tom (Just over a gigasecond old now) From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Sep 15 19:41:59 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:41:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: <580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it> <128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AAFEE07.7020801@libero.it> Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > 2009/9/15 Stathis Papaioannou > > > No they haven't. They retarded science, keeping people ignorant and > hungry. Giving scraps of food to the poor won't compensate for the > Dark Ages. > > > Yes. I will not elaborate on the first part where we are in absolute > agreement. > > I would only to add that "giving away scraps of food", as in any policy > which concentrates on re-distribution only without paying too much > attention to of the *production* of what is going to be distributed, > does not really do much for the overall wealth of a given community. You are running the risk to move to the Other Side of The Force :-) Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 20:50:41 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:50:41 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Norman Borlaug In-Reply-To: <4AAFEE07.7020801@libero.it> References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it> <128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com> <4AAFEE07.7020801@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20909151350o3b0e8f71gf7dff80a20190c4@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/15 Mirco Romanato > You are running the risk to move to the Other Side of The Force :-) > Yes, in my old age I am feeling more and more inclined towards the Abyss... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 17:44:36 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:44:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Human brains better tooled up than monkeys Message-ID: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17796-human-brains-better-tooled-up-than-monkeys.html Human brains light up when they see tools being used ? but the sight fails to impress the brains of macaque monkey, our fellow primates, in the same way. In people, a particular brain region responds to tool use. This could have enabled early humans to understand how and why a tool worked, because it gave them early insights into cause and effect. Armed with this knowledge, they could work out in advance how tools could be used or modified to solve a multitude of new problems. Monkeys, by contrast, can be taught to use a tool to obtain a reward, but have little or no insight into the underlying concepts and forces that make it work. "It meant humans could understand things much more rapidly," says Guy Orban of the Catholic University of Leuven in Belgium, the head of the team that discovered the uniquely human area. "To get an associative understanding between tool and reward, monkeys must do things many times to learn by trial and error," he says. "But once understanding was genetically programmed to be there, humans could begin solving each new problem from a much higher level." Home improvement channel Orban and his colleagues identified the unique area, called the anterior supramarginal gyrus (aSMG), through experiments in which people and monkeys watched videos of simple tools being used while their brains were scanned with fMRI. Forty-seven people and five rhesus monkeys participated in the experiments. Two of the monkeys had been trained to obtain rewards beyond their reach by using either a rake or a pair of pliers. Exactly the same areas of the brain became active in people and monkeys when they watched footage of hands simply grasping tools. But when they watched videos of tools actually being used, the aSMG became active in the humans alone. It was silent even in the two trained monkeys'. Tool Age Orban and his colleagues think that the region may be specific to understanding cause and effect in tools alone: other brain regions have been seen to be active in more general studies of "cause and effect". "This is only the first step towards use of tools," says Orban. Further brain changes were probably necessary in the prefrontal cortex ? the thinking and reasoning part of the brain ? before our ancestors could envisage and plan complex tools that would embody subsidiary goals as well as a main objective. Orban says that the earliest evidence for human-like tool use dates back 2.5 million years ago, to sharp-edged flakes from the so-called Oldowan culture of the Lower Palaeolithic period in Africa. The aSMG was also seen to be active during earlier experiments in which contemporary people fashioned tools like those from the Oldowan period while having their brains scanned. Unfair advantage "This region is implicated in understanding the action possibilities that a tool affords, which could be a critical component in the kind of flexible and creative tool use characteristic of humans," says Dietrich Stout of Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, who carried out the toolmaking experiments . "This is very exciting because we are closing in on unique aspects of human tool use," he says. But one caveat, says Stout, is that the monkeys only had a month of training on each task, whereas the people in his experiments were archaeologists with at least 10 years' experience of making Oldowan tools. So the monkeys may not have had sufficient time to develop the necessary brain architecture. Further work will be needed to reveal whether the aSMG region is active in chimpanzees and other apes much more adept than monkeys at using tools. Nor does the new research explain the extraordinary abilities of other creatures, particularly birds, to deploy tools, sometimes from first principles. From jonkc at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 18 17:02:15 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:02:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: <580930c20909151350o3b0e8f71gf7dff80a20190c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it> <128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com> <4AAFEE07.7020801@libero.it> <580930c20909151350o3b0e8f71gf7dff80a20190c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <67402FF9-5826-484F-B69B-9FBB6056DF59@bellsouth.net> This is just a test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Sep 19 04:53:20 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:53:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: <67402FF9-5826-484F-B69B-9FBB6056DF59@bellsouth.net> References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it><128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com><4AAFEE07.7020801@libero.it><580930c20909151350o3b0e8f71gf7dff80a20190c4@mail.gmail.com> <67402FF9-5826-484F-B69B-9FBB6056DF59@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <2AA5FA4600854503A899FDEC5D80458C@spike> ________________________________ ...On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: [ExI] Test This is just a test There is nothing wrong with the server John. We just are simultaneously finding nothing to ramble on about. Everyone do stop all this not rambling on, forthwith please. spike From estropico at gmail.com Sat Sep 19 07:29:20 2009 From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 08:29:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Singularity Summit 2009 - highlights and learnings. Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90909190029k442760e7p92b32636ed6e5dfa@mail.gmail.com> Singularity Summit 2009 - highlights and learnings. Speakers include Aubrey de Grey and Anders Sandberg Saturday, October 10, 2009: 2pm-4pm Room 415, 4th floor (via main lift), Birkbeck College, Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX ** About the meeting: The 2009 Singularity Summit is taking place in New York on the 3rd-4th October. That Summit is described as "a conference devoted to the better understanding of increasing intelligence and accelerating change... bringing together a visionary community to further dialogue and action on complex, long-term issues that are transforming the world. Participants will hear talks from cutting-edge researchers and network with strategic business leaders. The world's most eminent experts on forecasting, venture capital, emerging technologies, consciousness and life extension will present their unique perspectives on the future and how to get there." One week later, several of the UK-based speakers and delegates from the Singularity Summit will be gathering in London, to review what they found to be the highlights from the New York meeting - breakthrough ideas, successes, failures, good surprises, bad surprises... The panel of speakers in London will include: *) Dr Aubrey de Grey, Chief Science Officer, the SENS Foundation for human regenerative engineering. *) Dr Anders Sandberg, Research Fellow at the Future of Humanity Institute, Oxford University. ** There's no charge to attend, and everyone is welcome. There will be plenty of opportunity to ask questions and to make comments. Discussion will continue after the event, in a nearby pub, for those who are able to stay. ** Why not join some of the Extrobritannia regulars for a drink and/or light lunch beforehand, any time after 12.30pm, in The Marlborough Arms, 36 Torrington Place, London WC1E 7HJ. To find us, look out for a table where there's a copy of the book "The Singularity is near" displayed. ** About the venue: Room 415 is on the fourth floor (via the lift near reception) in the main Birkbeck College building, in Torrington Square (which is a pedestrian-only square). Torrington Square is about 10 minutes walk from either Russell Square or Goodge St tube stations. From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sat Sep 19 16:59:06 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:59:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Those magnificent environmentalists (was: Test) In-Reply-To: <2AA5FA4600854503A899FDEC5D80458C@spike> References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it><128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com><4AAFEE07.7020801@libero.it><580930c20909151350o3b0e8f71gf7dff80a20190c4@mail.gmail.com> <67402FF9-5826-484F-B69B-9FBB6056DF59@bellsouth.net> <2AA5FA4600854503A899FDEC5D80458C@spike> Message-ID: <8F933D87-3F22-4F68-A42B-92B79C785C4C@bellsouth.net> On Sep 19, 2009, at 12:53 AM, spike wrote: > There is nothing wrong with the server John. We just are > simultaneously > finding nothing to ramble on about. Everyone do stop all this not > rambling on, forthwith please. Ok Spike, I found something to ramble about, I read that a company, BrightSource Energy, has just canceled a 500 megawatt solar generator project in the California desert because of intense pressure from those all so wise and moral environmentalists. They go on and on about the evils of global warming caused by greenhouse gasses and this project created none of them, but they opposed it. Solar farms need sunny land, the California desert is sunny and has the thinest most simple ecosystem of anyplace in the USA (except perhaps northern Alaska) but still those very noble environmentalists opposed it. You can't drill for oil because you just can't, you can't build a dam because it might cause a snail nobody ever heard of to become extinct, you can't put up windmills because they're ugly and noisy and might kill little birdies, you can't use geothermal because it might cause earthquakes, you can't install solar collectors because the land is sacred to the Uga Buga Indians or some other horse-shit reason, and you can't build nuclear reactors because you just can't, and to even hint you want to proves you're a Fascist. Our future course of action is clear, 6 billion people must freeze to death in the dark, it's the only moral thing to do. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Sep 19 19:06:34 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:06:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Those magnificent environmentalists (was: Test) In-Reply-To: <8F933D87-3F22-4F68-A42B-92B79C785C4C@bellsouth.net> References: <4AAEC90F.1060806@libero.it><128677.65205.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><580930c20909150514k48c74b3q701632e67086bc7d@mail.gmail.com><4AAFEE07.7020801@libero.it><580930c20909151350o3b0e8f71gf7dff80a20190c4@mail.gmail.com><67402FF9-5826-484F-B69B-9FBB6056DF59@bellsouth.net><2AA5FA4600854503A899FDEC5D80458C@spike> <8F933D87-3F22-4F68-A42B-92B79C785C4C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <54B7A0E1C6C249568F74ECBEA90A7192@spike> ________________________________ ...On Behalf Of John Clark On Sep 19, 2009, at 12:53 AM, spike wrote: ...Everyone do stop all this not rambling on, forthwith please. Ok Spike, I found something to ramble about...Our future course of action is clear, 6 billion people must freeze to death in the dark, it's the only moral thing to do. John K Clark Don't give up hope John, we may not freeze after all. Global warming may come along and save us from that fate. My bees are making a comeback. They aren't up to their usual numbers, but I was just outside and noticed they are buzzing about at around twice the strength they were last year. This season I have only actually seen one dying bee staggering about, something I noticed on a dozen occasions three years ago. During my vacation camping in Idaho in August, I noticed something that was almost the opposite of what happened over thirty years ago, when Grand Moff Tarkin used the death star to destroy Alderaan. When that happened, there was a strange disturbance in the Force, as experienced by Obi wan. When I was camping for a month in Idaho and Montana, far from any news sources or even cell phone reception, I suddenly had this feeling that everything was cool with the Force. I don't know what caused that feeling. spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Sep 20 05:26:35 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:26:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] carbon credits at sfo In-Reply-To: <4AAA8BE9.6010802@satx.rr.com> References: <4AAA8BE9.6010802@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <85DE3AF64E7944F0A5FD7FAC8756B833@spike> I got a chance to see the carbon credits machine they installed at the San Francisco airport. This sounds like a joke, but I am not kidding, they really have one. There is a touch screen menu you can go thru, tell it how far you are flying etc, and it calculates a suggested donation to offset your carbon footprint. In perhaps not the intended reaction, my knees nearly buckled laughing out loud at this silliness, which attracted others to come over and see. We were all amused, but no one chose to swipe a credit card. Had I not been in a hurry, I would like to have hung around to see what silly goof would actually fall for that. Carbon dioxide is apparently worth about 1.3 cents per kilogram. I do not know how they came up with that number. The sign says "Keep our skies blue. Purchase your air travel carbon offset here. Think of it as a tax on STUPID." Actually I supplied that last part, but the first two sentences are genuine, which led me to wonder about a number of questions, such as: what color is carbon dioxide? How is this donation to help decrease cloud cover, creating clear bluw skies, as opposed to cloudy white? Why didn't I think of this? How can I make a buttload of money, knowing that there are people who would really do this? Where did the Hare Krishnas go who used to hang out at SFO? http://sfappeal.com/alley/2009/09/sfo-kiosks-sell-carbon-credits-absolve-gui lt.php I am not kidding, they really have this thing. We asked this question some time ago on this forum: if there were to be such a thing as carbon offsets or credits, who can sell them? Can I? Can anyone? Can I just print my own? Or should it be the most carbon neutral among us gets to print and sell them. The most carbon neutral among us would the those that intentionally do not breed, and no points for those too ugly or mean to attract an actual nubile mate. spike From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Sun Sep 20 01:50:01 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 18:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Those magnificent environmentalists Message-ID: <583081.32831.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Xians make a good point, too: they are more worried about their kids and grandkids mores than melting glaciers and endangered blackfooted ferrets looked after by overpaid (and pollution-causing) govt sinecurists. Corruption in the lower recesses of govt is not unknown. ? Progress, you gotta love it. ? Ok Spike, I found something to ramble about, I read that a company, BrightSource Energy, has just canceled a 500 megawatt solar generator project in the California desert because of intense pressure from those all so wise and moral environmentalists. They go on and on about the evils of global warming caused by greenhouse gasses and this project created none of them, but they opposed it. Solar farms need sunny land, the California desert is sunny and has the thinest most simple ecosystem of anyplace in the USA (except perhaps northern Alaska) but still those very noble environmentalists opposed it.? You can't drill for oil because you just can't, you can't build a dam because it might cause a snail nobody ever heard of to become extinct, you can't put up windmills because they're ugly and noisy and might kill little birdies, you can't use geothermal because it might cause earthquakes,?you can't install solar collectors because the land is sacred to the Uga Buga Indians or some other horse-shit reason, and you can't build nuclear reactors because you just can't, and to even hint you want to proves you're a Fascist.. Our future course of action is clear, 6 billion people must freeze to death in the dark, it's the only moral thing to do. ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 20 21:28:33 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Well, in order to keep discussion on the list moving, I may as well reply to one of Stathis' posts Post Futurist Wrote: Mr. Clark wrote of how Borlaug wasn't a mystic, etc; he was a scientist. Albeit, over thousands of years, religious orgs have done as much as scientists in relieving hunger. Stathis wrote: No they haven't. They retarded science, keeping people ignorant and hungry. Giving scraps of food to the poor won't compensate for the Dark Ages. I have to argue with Stathis here. Religious organisations were not responsible for the Dark Ages. The Western European dark age following the fall of Rome was cause by invading nomadic cultures, removing centralised governments and upsetting the civilisations that previously could afford to support large cities and educated institutions. Monasteries did a fine job of keeping literacy and written culture alive during these times. The Arabic medieval civilisation was badly damaged by Helugu Khan's sacking of Baghdad and destruction of the library there, as another nomadic culture destroyed the social structures keeping a large, well-educated society together. Science and technology can be retarded by many causes - the polytheist Roman culture could have utilised many inventions we have uncovered evidence of, but didn't. The Chinese invented many things, but gunpowder and the printing press did not achieve the same revolutions there that they did in Europe. Many modern engineering ideas have suceeded or failed based on market forces or political patronage rather than any objective assessment of their worth. People can screw up science all by themselves without any religious interference. Yes, the catholic church was brutal in its treatment of Galileo and Bruno, and retarded the study of cosmology. However, lack of knowledge of cosmology doesn't keep people hungry. Protestantism of the last two centuries has promoted the silliness of Young Earth Creationism, but this hasn't caused people to starve. Ironically, it has taken until my lifetime for the spread of HIV (and Catholic teachings on condom use) and modern medical technology (I was born in 1977, like the first test tube baby) and genetic engineering for religion to REALLY have a go at suppressing science to such an extent it makes people suffer. Tom From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 21 03:54:56 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:54:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress In-Reply-To: <4A9DA176.9020204@libero.it> References: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A9DA176.9020204@libero.it> Message-ID: ...On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato > Subject: Re: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress > > Post Futurist ha scritto: > > > Vietnam? so many thousands of ex-'Nam soldiers are in pain; > > I think the "psycothic ex-Nam soldier" is a national myth, > but it is not true... Certainly greatly exaggerated. I know plenty of ex-Nam soldiers, and not a single one of them would I consider unhinged or suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. The mainstream press seems bent on selling kids the notion that if they are sent to war they will be crazy. I just haven't seen that. > What changed? The reporting of the press. The media... I would hafta agree here. > > Not strange, given soldiers are young people, usually. > How many WW2 was elected POTUS? Eisenhower, Kennedy (that > lasted a couple of days in shark infested waters when his > ship was sunked by japaneses)... Nixon was a Navy guy in WW2, Ford was a Navy guy in WW2, Carter was a Navy guy after the war, Reagan served in WW2 making training videos, may he rest in peace. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Sep 21 04:52:08 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:52:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress In-Reply-To: References: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A9DA176.9020204@libero.it> Message-ID: <4AB70678.7080103@satx.rr.com> On 9/20/2009 10:54 PM, spike wrote: > Reagan served in WW2 making training videos, may he rest > in peace. Didn't he rather famously rest in peace quite a lot while he was POTUS? In any case, I doubt he'll be jumping up again unless he was vitrified. From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 21 05:01:55 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 22:01:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] insurance may be dangerous, was RE: surefire way to prevent street robbery In-Reply-To: <340248.77701.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4AA0359C.1070200@satx.rr.com> <340248.77701.qm@web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ...On Behalf Of Post Futurist ... Subject: [ExI] surefire way to prevent street robbery You tell the mugger, "I'm a transhumano-extropian", and he will take out his own wallet, saying, "so sorry, here is all my cash"... Because I was camping for a solid month, I am way behind on email and news, but I just heard the Senator from Chappaquiddick passed away some time last month. When I read about the commentary regarding muggers, I think of the health reform plan that would require everyone, even the young and healthy to buy health insurance. Seems to make sense in a way, for they are at some risk of developing health problems, even if low, and their having little capital means the non-insured young externalize their risk onto society. But here's a new spin for you: the money they are forced to spend on health insurance could otherwise be spent on moving into a safer neighborhood. If we compel the young and healthy to buy health insurance, we may actually *increase* their overall risk of being injured or seriously killed. spike From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 21 06:07:52 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:07:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress In-Reply-To: <4AB70678.7080103@satx.rr.com> References: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A9DA176.9020204@libero.it> <4AB70678.7080103@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <45CCD36C7D634B94BD6AB3F58FD5827F@spike> ... > Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress > > On 9/20/2009 10:54 PM, spike wrote: > > > Reagan served in WW2 making training videos, may he rest in peace. > > Didn't he rather famously rest in peace quite a lot while he > was POTUS? ... Yes, that was one of his endearing features. He didn't try to grab power for the executive branch, unlike every one of his successors other than Bush senior. Reagan was the closest thing we have had to a libertarian president since Calvin Coolidge. > In any case, I doubt he'll be jumping up again unless he was > vitrified... Ja. On my previous list, I forgot Bush senior, who was a navy pilot in WW2. The Navy and Yale have produced a lot of POTUSes. (POTI?) spike From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 09:18:28 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:18:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress In-Reply-To: References: <95791.13643.qm@web59904.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A9DA176.9020204@libero.it> Message-ID: On 9/21/09, spike wrote: > Certainly greatly exaggerated. I know plenty of ex-Nam soldiers, and not a > single one of them would I consider unhinged or suffering from > post-traumatic stress syndrome. The mainstream press seems bent on selling > kids the notion that if they are sent to war they will be crazy. I just > haven't seen that. > Spike, I think you should reconsider your opinion of PTSD. The treatment of injured soldiers is bad enough without claiming that because it is mental damage it doesn't exist. See: Quote: Post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an emotional illness that develops as a result of a terribly frightening, life-threatening, or otherwise highly unsafe experience. ----------------------- It is not limited to soldiers who have exceptionally bad experiences. Quote: What causes PTSD? Virtually any event that is life-threatening or that severely compromises the emotional well-being of an individual may cause PTSD. Such events often include either experiencing or witnessing a severe accident or physical injury, receiving a life-threatening medical diagnosis, being the victim of kidnapping or torture, exposure to combat or to a natural disaster, other disaster (for example, plane crash) or terrorist attack, being the victim of rape, mugging, robbery or assault; enduring physical, sexual, emotional or other forms of abuse, as well as involvement in civil conflict. ------------------- One study said 19% of Vietnam vets encountered some degree of PTSD and Iraq and Afghanistan firefight vets are running at about the same level. So you are correct to say that most soldiers don't have PTSD. Many soldiers have a 'quiet' war. Boring, dirty, pointless, but not in fear of losing their life. If you were to visit out-patient mental health clinics you would meet many PTSD victims there. But, as you say, I doubt if many PTSD patients are in your social circle. BillK From charlie.stross at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 09:22:47 2009 From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:22:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Singularity Summit 2009 - highlights and learnings. In-Reply-To: <4eaaa0d90909190029k442760e7p92b32636ed6e5dfa@mail.gmail.com> References: <4eaaa0d90909190029k442760e7p92b32636ed6e5dfa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB745E7.4090609@gmail.com> estropico wrote: > Singularity Summit 2009 - highlights and learnings. > > Speakers include Aubrey de Grey and Anders Sandberg > > Saturday, October 10, 2009: 2pm-4pm > > Room 415, 4th floor (via main lift), Birkbeck College, Torrington > Square, London WC1E 7HX As usual, it's in bloody London. Any chance of somebody videoing the proceedings and sticking them on YouTube (for the benefit of those of us for whom getting to London is only marginally easier than getting to New York)? -- Charlie From Claus.Bornich at autocue.co.uk Mon Sep 21 12:12:59 2009 From: Claus.Bornich at autocue.co.uk (Claus Bornich) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:12:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Singularity Summit 2009 - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:22:47 Charlie Stross asked: > Any chance of somebody videoing the proceedings and sticking them on > YouTube (for the benefit of those of us for whom getting to London is > only marginally easier than getting to New York)? Actually that is very likely as most of our meetings recently have been recorded and stuck on youtube. Take our previous talk on quantum computers and AI by Suzanne Gildert for example which is uploaded in ten parts, the first which you can get here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV2syNxDfe0 If you are on facebook I suggest you join the UKH+ group as links to videos and announcements are easy to keep track of there (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=21616858336&_fb_noscript=1) Cheers, Claus From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 12:39:31 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:39:31 +1000 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/21 Tom Nowell : > Well, in order to keep discussion on the list moving, I may as well reply to one of Stathis' posts > > Post Futurist Wrote: > ?Mr. Clark wrote of how Borlaug wasn't a mystic, etc; he was a scientist. > ?Albeit, over thousands of years, religious orgs have done as much as scientists in relieving hunger. > > Stathis wrote: > No they haven't. They retarded science, keeping people ignorant and > hungry. Giving scraps of food to the poor won't compensate for the > Dark Ages. > > I have to argue with Stathis here. Religious organisations were not responsible for the Dark Ages. The Western European dark age following the fall of Rome was cause by invading nomadic cultures, removing centralised governments and upsetting the civilisations that previously could afford to support large cities and educated institutions. Monasteries did a fine job of keeping literacy and written culture alive during these times. The Arabic medieval civilisation was badly damaged by Helugu Khan's sacking of Baghdad and destruction of the library there, as another nomadic culture destroyed the social structures keeping a large, well-educated society together. > > Science and technology can be retarded by many causes - the polytheist Roman culture could have utilised many inventions we have uncovered evidence of, but didn't. The Chinese invented many things, but gunpowder and the printing press did not achieve the same revolutions there that they did in Europe. Many modern engineering ideas have suceeded or failed based on market forces or political patronage rather than any objective assessment of their worth. People can screw up science all by themselves without any religious interference. > > Yes, the catholic church was brutal in its treatment of Galileo and Bruno, and retarded the study of cosmology. However, lack of knowledge of cosmology doesn't keep people hungry. Protestantism of the last two centuries has promoted the silliness of Young Earth Creationism, but this hasn't caused people to starve. Ironically, it has taken until my lifetime for the spread of HIV (and Catholic teachings on condom use) and modern medical technology (I was born in 1977, like the first test tube baby) and genetic engineering for religion to REALLY have a go at suppressing science to such an extent it makes people suffer. Christianity is intrinsically inimical to intellectual progress because it has as a central tenet perhaps the dumbest idea idea in the history of human thought, much dumber than belief in God and angels and virgin births: faith. Faith means you have to believe something that there is no rational reason to believe: the more incredible it is, the more virtuous you are for believing it. And if your faith did not align with the ad hoc faith of the religious authority of the day, you could be horribly killed. It was this, rather than the quickly Christianised barbarians, that held the world back for centuries. -- Stathis Papaioannou From amon at doctrinezero.com Mon Sep 21 12:18:55 2009 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:18:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Singularity Summit 2009 - Message-ID: <5bae33f10909210518i3924d4d0s70c16d8cc2cdfd09@mail.gmail.com> > > > Saturday, October 10, 2009: 2pm-4pm > > > > Room 415, 4th floor (via main lift), Birkbeck College, Torrington > > Square, London WC1E 7HX > > As usual, it's in bloody London. > > Any chance of somebody videoing the proceedings and sticking them on > YouTube (for the benefit of those of us for whom getting to London is > only marginally easier than getting to New York)? Hi Charlie - Good news - All the ExtroBritannia events get videoed and posted online these days: http://www.youtube.com/user/KoanPhilosopher All the Best, Amon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Mon Sep 21 03:24:34 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Those magnificent environmentalists In-Reply-To: <583081.32831.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <800041.50770.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> this is preaching to the choir, but those down the food chain working for govt, are: a) Often invisible. b) Appointed, not voted, into office. ? Not good. not good at all. You'll pardon me if I'm pessimistic, not apocalyptic, but pessimistic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Mon Sep 21 05:18:53 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 22:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] insurance may be dangerous, was RE: surefire way to prevent street robbery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <996212.32337.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> But universal health insurance does have a placebo effect :) btw, being so cynical how could I have ever been a social progressive? well, since you asked, my dad was a communist in the '30s, and after being in WWII, he was a liberal the rest of his life. He thought if you tell anyone what to do, you are in some way being like Hitler. Not to say he was libertarian, no; he had no core beliefs of any sort. Squishy liberal would be the appropriate moniker. --- On Sun, 9/20/09, spike wrote: From: spike Subject: [ExI] insurance may be dangerous, was RE: surefire way to prevent street robbery To: "'ExI chat list'" Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 11:01 PM ....On Behalf Of Post Futurist .... ??? Subject: [ExI] surefire way to prevent street robbery ??? ??? ??? You tell the mugger, "I'm a transhumano-extropian", and he will take out his own wallet, saying, "so sorry, here is all my cash"... Because I was camping for a solid month, I am way behind on email and news, but I just heard the Senator from Chappaquiddick passed away some time last month.? When I read about the commentary regarding muggers, I think of the health reform plan that would require everyone, even the young and healthy to buy health insurance.? Seems to make sense in a way, for they are at some risk of developing health problems, even if low, and their having little capital means the non-insured young externalize their risk onto society. But here's a new spin for you: the money they are forced to spend on health insurance could otherwise be spent on moving into a safer neighborhood.? If we compel the young and healthy to buy health insurance, we may actually *increase* their overall risk of being injured or seriously killed. spike? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 13:23:52 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:23:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909210623w5d4d71f6h30c63de72f073b6a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/21 Stathis Papaioannou : > Christianity is intrinsically inimical to intellectual progress > because it has as a central tenet perhaps the dumbest idea idea in the > history of human thought, much dumber than belief in God and angels > and virgin births: faith. Indeed. Even though it may be said that both Islam and some ideologies arising from the secularisation of christianism unfortunately took a leaf from it in this respect. -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 21 13:47:31 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 06:47:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Tom Nowell ... > Post Futurist Wrote: > ...religious orgs have done as > much as scientists in relieving hunger. > > Stathis wrote: > No they haven't... > > ...The Western European > dark age following the fall of Rome was cause by invading > nomadic cultures... The Arabic medieval civilisation was > badly damaged by Helugu Khan's sacking of Baghdad and > destruction of the library there, as another nomadic culture > destroyed the social structures keeping a large, > well-educated society together... Tom Intriquing theory Tom. The dark ages were triggered by insufficient defense technology. I see modern Europe being threatened by insuffient memetic defenses, which is to say excess tolerance is welcoming intolerant memesets. spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 13:59:49 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:59:49 +0200 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909210659m7c4fc4fej96b3012308ba4c1e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/21 spike : > Intriquing theory Tom. ?The dark ages were triggered by insufficient defense > technology. Mmhhh. Technology was vastly superior to that of "invading nomadic cultures". But why bother defending when you have just learned that the rapture is at hand? -- Stefano Vaj From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Sep 21 14:10:15 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 07:10:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Senator from Chappaquiddick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> At 05:00 AM 9/21/2009, spike wrote: >Because I was camping for a solid month, I am way behind on email and news, >but I just heard the Senator from Chappaquiddick passed away some time last >month. More than 30 years ago, a person I knew who moved in Kennedy circles told me that Kennedy didn't know Mary Jo was in the back seat. According to him, Mary Jo had gone to sleep in the back of the car after too much alcohol. (It wouldn't have taken much if she didn't drink often.) Kennedy and some other woman took off from the party (for the usual reason he thought). Kennedy missed the road and went down a boat ramp into the water. He and the woman got out, and had no idea that Mary Jo was drowning in the back seat. Kennedy didn't think much of the silly accident and got someone else to report they had driven the car into the water. When the car was fished out and the body discovered, that story wouldn't work, he obviously could not put Mary Jo's death on someone else. But Kennedy could not tell the real story (which increases the odds he had a married woman with him). The actual situation was told to the judge in a closed court session. The judge treated it as a tragic accident (which if this story is true, it was). Now this is third hand at least, and I can't even reference the person (George Koopman) who told it to me because he has been dead for 20 years now. But it makes a lot more sense than the official version. Now that Kennedy is dead, perhaps some of the people who knew what actually happened will talk about it. Keith From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 21 15:05:50 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:05:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Senator from Chappaquiddick In-Reply-To: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> Message-ID: On Sep 21, 2009, at 10:10 AM, hkhenson wrote: > More than 30 years ago, a person I knew who moved in Kennedy circles > told me that Kennedy didn't know Mary Jo was in the back seat. > According to him, Mary Jo had gone to sleep in the back of the car > after too much alcohol. (It wouldn't have taken much if she didn't > drink often.) > > Kennedy and some other woman took off from the party (for the usual > reason he thought). Kennedy missed the road and went down a boat ramp > into the water. He and the woman got out, and had no idea that Mary Jo > was drowning in the back seat. Kennedy didn't think much of the silly > accident and got someone else to report they had driven the car into > the water. > > When the car was fished out and the body discovered, that story > wouldn't work, he obviously could not put Mary Jo's death on someone > else. But Kennedy could not tell the real story (which increases the > odds he had a married woman with him). > Unlikely because the true story would caste him in a better light than the made up story he told the world; it still wouldn't be a good light but it would certainly be better. So why would he make up a story that makes him look like a complete asshole when the truth only makes him look a little foolish? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 21 20:29:42 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:29:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54EE4231-6579-487D-8BFD-111F014F0ABA@bellsouth.net> On Sep 20, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Tom Nowell wrote: > Religious organisations were not responsible for the Dark Ages. You don't know that, we can't be certain what caused the Dark Ages, perhaps it was just a coincidence that they started at just about the same time that Christianity caught on big time in the West, perhaps not. Christianity certainly can't be blamed for the collapse of the pre-Incan Moche civilization that ruled present day Chile, Peru, and Bolivia; but it is a little odd that a South American Dark Age started at almost the same exact time as a European Dark Age. Perhaps that's a coincidence too, perhaps not. > The Western European dark age following the fall of Rome was cause > by invading nomadic cultures Well yea, but why did those cultures choose that time to go invading people? Probably because things weren't doing very well at home. The evidence is pretty good that somewhere near the equator a volcano erupted in the year 535 that was 10 times as powerful as the 1883 Krakatoa explosion and 4 to 5 times as large as the 1815 Tambour eruption that caused the infamous "year without a summer" in 1816 that killed many millions worldwide. And 536 was the coldest and driest year of the first millennium, that must have had an effect on human history. We can't be certain what that big volcano was, but by far the best candidate is Krakatoa, made famous by it's much smaller eruption 1348 years later. The 535 eruption was absolutely enormous, it probably created the Sunda Straits and separated Java from Sumatra. This was not in the Super-volcano category by any means, but it was pretty damn big. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Sep 22 04:03:48 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:03:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Senator from Chappaquiddick In-Reply-To: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> Message-ID: <6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> > ...On Behalf Of hkhenson > Subject: Re: [ExI] Senator from Chappaquiddick > > At 05:00 AM 9/21/2009, spike wrote: > > >...I just heard the Senator from Chappaquiddick > passed away some time last month. > > More than 30 years ago, a person I knew who moved in Kennedy > circles told me that Kennedy didn't know Mary Jo was in the back seat. > ...He and the woman got out, > and had no idea that Mary Jo was drowning in the back seat... > But it makes a lot more sense than the official version. > > Now that Kennedy is dead, perhaps some of the people who knew > what actually happened will talk about it... Keith Keith thanks, this version of the story really does make more sense than the traditional one. I couldn't figure out how even a child of privelege could have gotten off with so few consequences. I could imagine witnesses at the party testifying that Mary Jo had too much and had left the party, then some time later Kennedy and someone else had left together. For that matter Mary Jo could have even been asleep in the floor behind the front seat, which would explain why the carpet back there had her claw marks. She could have awakened only when the car overturned, then been disoriented by alcohol and the bizarre circumstance of being upsidedown in a submerged Detroit. Tragic story in any case. I am amazed Kennedy managed to salvage a political career with that behind him. spike From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Sep 22 03:48:39 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:48:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AB84917.6040305@rawbw.com> Stathis wrote > Christianity is intrinsically inimical to intellectual progress > because it has as a central tenet perhaps the dumbest idea idea in the > history of human thought, much dumber than belief in God and angels > and virgin births: faith. Faith means you have to believe something > that there is no rational reason to believe: the more incredible it > is, the more virtuous you are for believing it. And if your faith did > not align with the ad hoc faith of the religious authority of the day, > you could be horribly killed. It was this, rather than the quickly > Christianised barbarians, that held the world back for centuries. I'm not so sure Christian faith held back the world. The reigning faiths elsewhere were very likely less "irrational", but what good did it do them? As I wrote not long ago to some friends (with respect, by the way, to whoever pointed out the Mongols smashed Baghdad about this time [1]): While by 1200 something very bad had already happened to the Muslim world, and something bad was starting to happen to China, it's also true that things unprecedently good were starting to happen in Europe by 1200: "In many respects the Europe of the thirteenth century, whose total population probably came close to the fifty million level of the Roman empire at its peak, was a remarkably creative society and culture. Governmental agencies were instituting modern bureaucratic and legal systems. Well-endowed and heavily enrolled universities were the sites of brilliant theorizing about philosophy and theology as well as providing professional schools for training lawyers and teachers. "Magnificent Gothic churches were erected and the visual arts in general---sculpture, painting, and colored-glass blowing ---attained a level of ingenuity never to be surpassed. The vernacular national literatures of Europe were in the course of formation, and the texts invented by medieval poets and narrators are still intensely scrutinized today in all university literature departments for their subtle psychology and intrinsic aesthetic value. (I always find Cantor's views strikingly perceptive. For more, see http://books.google.com/books?id=5QK_5hVmDz4C&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=%22The+Latin+Europeans+were+afraid+of+neither%22&source=bl&ots=JfOxW8-tN8&sig=eK8f-7h0RX_4w4XSoJP71gAfSP0&hl=en&ei=1X22SvzCNorQtAP0lIXRDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Latin%20Europeans%20were%20afraid%20of%20neither%22&f=false So to say that Xianity *held back* Europe is to exalt even higher whatever it was that Europe had going for it! Lee [1] On February 10, 1258, Baghdad was captured by the Mongols led by Hulegu, a grandson of Chingiz Khan during the sack of Baghdad.[21] Many quarters were ruined by fire, siege, or looting. The Mongols massacred most of the city's inhabitants, including the caliph Al-Musta'sim, and destroyed large sections of the city. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad#The_end_of_the_Abbasids_in_Baghdad From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Sep 22 04:50:52 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:50:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Senator from Chappaquiddick In-Reply-To: <6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> <6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> Message-ID: <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> spike wrote: > > >> ...On Behalf Of hkhenson >> More than 30 years ago, a person I knew who moved in Kennedy >> circles told me that Kennedy didn't know Mary Jo was in the back seat. >> ...He and the woman got out, >> and had no idea that Mary Jo was drowning in the back seat... >> But it makes a lot more sense than the official version. >> >> Now that Kennedy is dead, perhaps some of the people who knew >> what actually happened will talk about it... Keith > [In more detail] >> According [this account], Mary Jo had gone to sleep in the back of the car after too much alcohol. (It wouldn't have taken much if she didn't drink often.) Kennedy and some other woman took off from the party (for the usual reason he thought). Kennedy missed the road and went down a boat ramp into the water. He and the woman got out, and had no idea that Mary Jo was drowning in the back seat. Kennedy didn't think much of the silly accident and got someone else to report they had driven the car into the water. When the car was fished out and the body discovered, that story wouldn't work, he obviously could not put Mary Jo's death on someone else. But Kennedy could not tell the real story (which increases the odds he had a married woman with him). The actual situation was told to the judge in a closed court session. The judge treated it as a tragic accident (which if this story is true, it was). > Keith thanks, this version of the story really does make more sense than the > traditional one. I couldn't figure out how even a child of privelege could > have gotten off with so few consequences. I could imagine witnesses at the > party testifying that Mary Jo had too much and had left the party, then some > time later Kennedy and someone else had left together. For that matter Mary > Jo could have even been asleep in the floor behind the front seat, which > would explain why the carpet back there had her claw marks. She could have > awakened only when the car overturned, then been disoriented by alcohol and > the bizarre circumstance of being upsidedown in a submerged Detroit. Like John Clark, I can't quite figure it. I put myself in Kennedy's position upon hearing that they've just found a dead woman in the back seat. Now what would be more damaging? (A) that I had no idea, though I was with the embarrassing Mrs. X, or (B) I panicked and didn't seek help, and let a woman drown. The truth (1) sounds less culpable and even less embarrassing, and (2) is far less dangerous since it is the truth (and so no later story can *really* get me in trouble. (Of course, it may be relevant that Kennedy was pretty young at the time, and no telling what he was thinking.) Lee From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 10:06:03 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:06:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: <54EE4231-6579-487D-8BFD-111F014F0ABA@bellsouth.net> References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <54EE4231-6579-487D-8BFD-111F014F0ABA@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <580930c20909220306n3740e1f4sda2a2bab6c5efb22@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/21 John Clark : > On Sep 20, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Tom Nowell wrote: > ?Religious organisations were not responsible for the Dark Ages. This sounds like an oxymoron to me, the dark ages being those where religious obscurantism, cultural decadence and chaos installed to give eventually place to a frozen society dominated by fundamentalism and fanatism. > You don't know that, we can't be certain what caused the Dark Ages, perhaps > it was just a coincidence that they started at just about the same time that > Christianity caught on big time in the West, perhaps not. Christianity > certainly can't be blamed for the collapse of the pre-Incan Moche > civilization that ruled present day Chile, Peru, and Bolivia; but it is a > little odd that a South American Dark Age started at almost the same exact > time as a European Dark Age. Why, they had themselves much worse when monotheists got around... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 12:48:43 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:48:43 +1000 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: <4AB84917.6040305@rawbw.com> References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4AB84917.6040305@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/22 Lee Corbin : > I'm not so sure Christian faith held back the world. > > The reigning faiths elsewhere were very likely less > "irrational", but what good did it do them? The tragic thing about Christianity is that it displaced the culture of ancient Greece, which had been allowed to continue under the more practical and less philosophically inclined Romans, albeit not at the incredible intensity of creativity it reached in Athens at around the time of Pericles. It wouldn't have been so bad if there had been nothing of intellectual worth before Christianity. When the Christian Emperor Theodosius ordered the destruction of pagan temples in 391, the Library of Alexandria was considered a pagan temple. It was not until the later Middle Ages that rationalism started to resurface, for example with Thomas Aquinas' rediscovery of Aristotle and attempt at a quasi-rational theology. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 14:27:47 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:27:47 +0200 Subject: [ExI] For the sake of argument In-Reply-To: References: <96997.21121.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4AB84917.6040305@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909220727jdd3219eh370daaa3d63186e1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/22 Stathis Papaioannou : > The tragic thing about Christianity is that it displaced the culture > of ancient Greece, which had been allowed to continue under the more > practical and less philosophically inclined Romans, albeit not at the > incredible intensity of creativity it reached in Athens at around the > time of Pericles. It wouldn't have been so bad if there had been > nothing of intellectual worth before Christianity. When the Christian > Emperor Theodosius ordered the destruction of pagan temples in 391, > the Library of Alexandria was considered a pagan temple. It was not > until the later Middle Ages that rationalism started to resurface, for > example with Thomas Aquinas' rediscovery of Aristotle and attempt at a > quasi-rational theology. "Rationalism" may be an ambiguous concept, especially in a theological context, but as far as "empirism" was instead concerned the truth is that the classic age had been on the way of rather spectacular and pre-industrial technologies. >From a military and infrastructural point of view, or in terms of knowledge of the human anatomy, e.g., one had to wait until the age of Leonardo and beyond to see Europe getting back to the level of the second century after Christ. And apparently the agricultural proceeds of grains went back to their previous levels only during 1600... This is absolutely on topic here, since a few lessons can be drawn from a H+ POV: i) our wishful-thinking "exponential curves" are neither continuous in history, nor to be taken for granted no-matter-what, stagnation and even decadence remaining a distinct possibility at any time; ii) the cultural/religious/philosophical/worldview context has a major impact on them; iii) some contexts are demonstrably less favourable than others... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 22 14:31:19 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:31:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nanotechnology Now Column - Natasha Message-ID: <8AFFBBA278004A56BF38BC878CAEB847@DFC68LF1> http://www.nanotech-now.com/ from the home page, or go to http://www.nanotech-now.com/columns/?article=355 (This piece relates to Extrobritannia's discussion about life extension.) One comment on the article was made by Richard Clark Kaufman which sums up the piece's view about normal: "To modern medicine, normal blood test values represents an acceptable range of health. When we measured "biological ages" with protocols that included standard blood test biomarkers, subjects with their blood test values in the lower range of normal had consistently lower biological ages associated with premature aging." Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: att8dc1d.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 23:34:06 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:04:06 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Human brains better tooled up than monkeys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0909221634o558e8b0fjf18e6d18af3c3d3d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/17 Dave Sill : > http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17796-human-brains-better-tooled-up-than-monkeys.html > > Human brains light up when they see tools being used ? but the sight > fails to impress the brains of macaque monkey, our fellow primates, in > the same way. Have they tried this on Arts graduates as a separate subgroup? -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Wed Sep 23 03:18:47 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:18:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net><6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> I had a thought today. Remember that time the mean old Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day, and it broke the X-ray machine? What if... his dog Max had become a mean snarling son of a bitch? He had been such a nice dog right up until that moment. It would kinda make you wonder. In any case, that wasn't the thought I had today. I give blood regularly and have signed up to be an organ donor (anywhere from the neck down) because these are two examples of good deeds one can do that doesn't cost one any actual money. Let us call this class of acts Capitalist Good Deeds, or CGDs. Recently I heard that a FOAF had contracted a rare disease known as CIPD, or Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy, and of course he was depressed and imagined he would die soon. As chance would have it, I have a good friend who contracted CIPD about three years ago, but has enjoyed a remission in the past year. I introduced the two online, giving my friend a chance to commit a CGD. This gave me an idea. If anyone here has had a life-threatening illness and has survived, that person is an ideal candidate to help others who are just now entering that dark tunnel. How could we simultaneously maintain medical privacy and set up a database of people who have survived life-threatening illnesses, who are also willing to help others, and score CGDs? spike From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 23 01:29:12 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences Message-ID: <476659.3646.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Tom Wolfe: Neuroscience is the study of the brain and the central nervous system. But it's currently used, it ties in very closely with genetics and all the theories of genetics and in brief, my contention is that this is very rapidly changing the way that human beings look at themselves. Peter Robinson: Who is E.L. Wilson? Tom Wolfe: He's the new Darwin. He believes totally in Darwin 1 and Charles Darwin. He's Darwin 2 but he's equipped with all the latest findings and genetics, plus his own studies of ants. And his theory can be summed up in a sense, because he was kind enough to do that in an interview. Not with me, but in an interview. He said, "Every human brain is born not as a blank slate waiting to be filled in by experience, but as a negative waiting to be slipped into developer fluid." And of course the implication is you can develop that negative well, or you can develop it poorly. But all you're going to get ever after is what's printed on that negative at birth. Peter Robinson: So in the age-old debate between nurture and nature, he is tilting things way in the direction of nature. Tom Wolfe: Right. And this is what I think changing people's own opinion of themselves so rapidly. The two great theories which have affected, I probably out of the most people in the world in the past 100 years, even people didn't believe in them consciously, Marxism and Freudism. Both of those are in fact environmental theories. Marx says that your life, your destiny is your position in the class struggle. In effect he thinks that you're a blank slate waiting to be filled in by the class struggle. Freud narrows the environment of it, but he says our destiny is created by the edible drama in the family that we're born into. Who's jealous of whom, whether the father or the son is getting the attention of the mother, and so on. It's also environmental. But now this new theory or this updated Darwinism updated to take advantage of studies of genes and the brain says that we're essentially mechanisms that are programmed from birth. And that belief that we have all this free will and we choose our careers is really a small part of a delusion. The lesson came to this point by studying ants. If you look closely at ants, they have a tremendous differentiation in employment. There are soldier ants and policeman ants. They probably think that they each do something different, when in fact it's all built into their genetic code. Peter Robinson: Okay. So if genetics really does determine so much of our behavior, what happens to free will? We have all the great religions of the world. Or all the great moral systems, religious or secular, are predicated upon the notice of free will. Not a lot of free will necessarily. You don't get to choose the moment of your birth, you don't get to choose your parents, and you don't get to choose your gender. But enough free will to choose between good and evil at various times in one's life. And E.L. Wilson says?.? Tom Wolfe: He says that a lot of the moral choices that we think we're making freely are programmed genetically. For example, the tendency of most adults to go out of their way even at the risk of their own life and limb to protect small children, even if they're not their own children. There's something in us that makes us want to protect those small creatures. He maintains that this is the product of evolution. He's a mature man and savvy. He doesn't go as far as the young neuroscientists do. Peter Robinson: And there's a new generation coming up. Tom Wolfe: New generation coming up believe completely in the idea that we are machinery. We are strands of molecules with DNA's inside of you, which lead up to the best machine of all, which is the chemical analog computer called the human brain. And we believe, and I for one find it impossible not to believe, but we believe that there's inside of skull somewhere is ourselves. That, in my mind, there's always been a little brass crucible. I mean, and you can get anything you want to mean physically, but you never get to that little brass crucible. Peter Robinson: Invaluable self. Tom Wolfe: Invaluable. And I have one center of consciousness. Somewhere in there is this one thing that makes me conscious. These true believers believe that we are so much a piece of machinery that it will be possible to predict the activities of a human being. Me. Presumably you. Moment by moment. They don't pretend that they can really do that now, but they think that since there's no, but in theory, it's graspable. It's like predicting the weather. There are a large number of variables and we can at least control them over a short period of time. It's based on a single proposition, which is that we are entirely physical. Peter Robinson: No soul? Tom Wolfe: No soul. Peter Robinson: No free will? Tom Wolfe: No free will. Peter Robinson: No moral capacity? No difference except the degree of elaboration of our physical structures between us and the ants. Tom Wolfe: Right. And they put mind in quotes and put self in quotes. Of course soul they put in quotes for years. Peter Robinson: And they sign their names in quotes? [laughter] Is Tom Wolfe as skeptical of the findings of neuroscience as he sounds? Tom Wolfe: I'm not meaning to?I sound like I'm knocking these people, but I'm not. It's a very exciting field. They're learning things about the mind. Certain quotes unfortunately that no one would have ever dreamed. Let me just give you a couple of examples of studies that have?that are changing already the way people look at themselves. Already this theory has bubbled out into politics, along both liberals and conservatives. Among liberals, let's say the Gay Rights Movement. There is the tremendous interest in the discovery of the so-called gay gene by [Dean Hamer] of the National Institute of Health. He's a very respected researcher. If in fact homosexuality is caused by a genetic hard-wiring, that's another phrase that's often used, hard-wiring, then to have any sanctions against it, social or political or legal, would be a violation of nature. At the same time, conservatives have seized upon studies that indicate that men and women are wired quite differently due to evolution over several hundred thousand years. So not nearly are their bodies different, their strengths different, but their emotional wiring is different and that there are certain occupations that women really should not be involved in because that is a violation of nature. In fact, Wilson himself got into a very deep trouble? Peter Robinson: Darwin the 2nd. Tom Wolfe: Darwin the 2nd got into deep trouble. He's very much personally, as far as I can tell, I haven't met him. I'd love to meet him. As far as I can tell, he's very much a liberal. He's on the Harvard faculty, I mean, what do you want. And he's very strong in environmental issues and so on. And in one occasion he happened to say in an interview, "I agree with the goals of the feminists, they are absolutely right with what they seek. All they seek is justice in the kind of world that we live in now." He says, "Unfortunately, the last 300,000 years of evolution militates against their achieving the goals that they seek?" Well, you may not think that was inflammatory, but? Peter Robinson: At Harvard it's probably not allowed to say that sort of thing. Tom Wolfe: The next time he was at a neuroscientific conference, a platoon of feminists broke in and one of them had a pitcher full of ice water and dumped it over his head, you know, cubes and everything were bouncing off, and then they started pointing to him and chanting, "You're all wet?.you're all wet? you're all wet?" and then they picketed his course at Harvard in Socio-Biology, a term that he has coined. Not just once but for a year. So for? Peter Robinson: He wouldn't back down. He didn't exactly recant. Tom Wolfe: No he wasn't backing down. I mean, he had said the truth is inside. But the students who went to that class had to cross a picket line for a year. So that's how hot it is. Peter Robinson: The IQ cap. Tom Wolfe: The theory is that we are hard wired for all sorts of things and there are many neuroscientists who believe we are hard wired for intelligence. And you all remember the great furor over the book the [Bell Curve] by [Charles Murray and Richard Hurnastein], a couple of neuroscientists invited the IQ cap. You can put it on someone's scalp without even cutting the hair. It musses it up a little bit, but you can put these 20 electrodes on. The person stares at a spot. And the experimenter who was telling me about it showed me the cap. He uses a red thumbtack that pushes into a plastic board and the subject stares, with the cap on, stares at this red thumbtack for 20 seconds. That's all it takes, 20 seconds. And the experimenter using the hardware and the software can give you an IQ reading that is within five points of the reading you would get if you sat down with a number 2 soft lead pencil and filled in all those bubbles. Peter Robinson: No muss, no fuss, no three hours to take a multiple-choice exam. Tom Wolfe: The inventors thought that they would make a fortune. Because think of untold hours of salaries and time labor for everybody. In fact, nobody wants it. I don't want it. I was scared too death he was going to say, "Put it on I'll show you." I don't want to know that my IQ is hard wired. I want to be able to say, "I didn't get much sleep last night," or you know I'm never good in the morning. I want an excuse. Everybody wants an excuse. So that great invention is a remarkable? Peter Robinson: But you are persuaded by the science? Tom Wolfe: I'm afraid it's true. Peter Robinson: Afraid it's true. Tom Wolfe: Yeah, I'm afraid it's true. Just as?not to compare myself to Nietzsche?but Nietzsche was afraid Darwin was right. Peter Robinson: Nietzsche?how does Nietzsche fit into this? [Friedric Wilhelm Nietzsche], a German philosopher born 1844 died in [Sang] in 1900 and you have written in effect that you just saw it all coming. Tom Wolfe: He made some predictions that are really pretty hard to argue against. In1880's he predicted that the 20th Century would be a century of wars catastrophic beyond all imagining. This was in correlate of his statement that God is dead. By which he meant not that I now make an atheistic declaration, he was saying I'm bringing you the news. That's the way he put it, I'm bringing you the news of the greatest event of modern history. Those were his actual words. The fact that educated people no longer believed in God. And he said once, I said before you Atheists run up your banners of triumph, let me sketch in the history of the next centuries. He predicted the world wars, in no small part, because he said the faith that was previously put into God would now go into a barbaric nationalistic brotherhood. So he's not only predicting the world wars of the 20th Century but Communism and Facisms. And he said that since you no longer considered yourself made in the image of God, and you've considered yourself as a somewhat more highly developed form of the beast of the field, well then you're going to be eternally skeptical.. Because obviously the so-called eternal varieties of beauty and truth are just weapons used by the strong to subjugate the weak. So he said 20th Century would be a century of tremendous skepticism, of self-loathing as well as loathing for others. And this has been a century of tremendous skepticism I would say. And science has progressed through skepticism. Peter Robinson: He used the phrase total eclipse of all value? Tom Wolfe: Well that was his prediction for the 21st Century. He said the?we would limp through the 20th Century on the remaining moral capital of the 19th Century. Pretty soon it will just be an osteoparadic skeleton. It would be nothing left. Then would come a tremendous flarity of attempts to create new religions. Which he said would all fail because without the belief in God, no moral codes means a thing. Then we'd have something that's worse than world wars, which would be the total eclipse of all values. If you're just an animal and you're just a machine, how can you say that anything is really a value that must be worshipped or believed? Peter Robinson: And now arises E.L. Wilson, the prim scholarly gentlemanly figure at Harvard to blot out the last of the values? Tom Wolfe: Well, not in his mind. Those who are part of this movement, this evolution of Darwinism have their own rationales for why nothing really has to change in terms of morality. But what interests me is I think the public, I think I and the public, of which I am very much a part, are getting the message. The message that is coming through is not the, well it'll all work out. The message that is coming through is that the fix is in. We are allies with terms by forces that we really have no control. Peter Robinson: To be fair to? Peter Robinson: Grant that the findings of the neuroscientists are shaking the foundations of our traditional moral systems. Have they come up with any new foundations? You said a moment ago, E.L. Wilson was sympathetic, more than sympathetic.. Completely identified with the goals of feminism on the grounds of justice. But said you're going to have trouble because we're hard wired to behave in a certain way. But where does he derive his notion of justice? Tom Wolfe: I don't know. He does have?there's an explanation that?there's [Daniel Denet] who's another of the theorists in this area. And they do have?I think of them as rationalizations as to why we shouldn't be that way. Peter Robinson: Would the notion be something like, justice helps to hold the colony of ants together? That our notions of morality are useful? Tom Wolfe: They would be genetically determined. That would be the argument. And that a lot of the--Wilson included, thinkers in this area, now believe in memes. Memes are like genes. Peter Robinson: Not means to an end, but memes.. Tom Wolfe: Memes, m-e-m-e-s. And that somehow the social constructs of humanity can be carried from one generation to another just the way physical, electrical, neuro-brain traits can be passed along. Peter Robinson: Actually biologically transmitted. Tom Wolfe: Yeah, but, no one's ever seen a meme yet. No has even pretended to see one and it's really like fairy dust. That fairies are sprinkling on genes to explain things like morality? Peter Robinson: Isn't there a logical contradiction in the science itself? That is to say, if consciousness itself?the way I, what came to mind as you were speaking is, gargoyles we put on for virtual reality. And in fact, they suggest that when we take the gargoyles off it's still virtual reality. Nothing but machines watching a kind of cinema in front of our eyeballs. But if that's the case, how can they know that the discoveries of neuroscience are in any way objectively true, and not just another projection of their brains. Tom Wolfe: Well they don't take as far as someone like, the Frenchman, Foucault and [unintelligible] now do. They have all these interpretations?reality interpretations. I notice they all go to the same cardiologist for their by-pass operations, but anyway, everything?Wilson doesn't really go that far. I think if I were entering college today, I would go into neuroscience. It's exciting. This is the hottest subject in academic. And young philosophers are heading out the of Philosophy Departments into Neuroscience. It?s very exciting. Peter Robinson: But you are persuaded.. I mean the science is compelling. It?s an exciting field. And we?ve had a few chuckles on it, but it is a little alarming because to the very extent that the science is compelling, they are really quite greatly reducing the field for moral choice, faith, a legitimate sense of self. Any notion of objective good--now why are you smiling? Isn?t this bad news? Tom Wolfe: Well it reminds me--I was raised a Presbyterian, that?s from way even from the beginning. We believed in predestination. Peter Robinson: Well, but see I think you don?t buy it. At some level you don?t buy because you can?t write a great novel about ants. Tom Wolfe: Well, there was a couple good movies that came out. Actually they were pretty good, but they were human beings in the guise of ants, of course. I don?t--I find it personally impossible to believe it because I cannot believe that there is no center of consciousness and that there is no self and no mind. But I do not brush off their findings just because I find it hard to imagine it-- Peter Robinson: Despite the scientific evidence, Tom Wolfe goes right on believing in individual free will, which brings us to the question of faith. I?m going to quote again from an essay. I had a picture of modern man plunging headlong back into the primordial ooze. This is modern man whose system of values neuroscience has destroyed. Plunging back into the primordial ooze. He?s floundering, sloshing about, gulping for air, frantically treading ooze when he feels something huge and smooth swim up beneath him and boost him up like some almighty dolphin. He can?t see it, but he?s much impressed. He names it God. This time Wolfe believes in God? Tom Wolfe: No. But this has to do really, I was thinking of Nietzsche?s final prediction. His was made in a notebook entry and not long before he went into his final illness. He said that science which has, has reigned through skepticism over man?s magical beliefs for so long will finally have only one target left, after neuroscience has developed. And that will be itself.. And science will turn on itself and begin to self-destruct. And this has already beginning to happen. One of the interesting areas this has happened is challenges among scientists, not among religions, among scientists on the theory of evolution. As a biochemist, Michael Behe, who maintains that Darwinism works fine, as a theory. So long as you start with a cell, because a cell can divide in two like an [ameba]. And from the cell division you can create all kinds of--you can envision all kinds of creatures. But unfortunately for the theory, the cell itself is a very complicated little factor. And there is no way that the things you find inside of a cell could have evolved from anywhere or from one another. [So he?s attached a beginning]-- Peter Robinson: Are they gaining ground? Tom Wolfe: They?re doing much better than they did 10 years ago. Because they are more sophisticated scientists who are entering the game. It?s American Scientists who believe most doggedly in the theory of evolution. In Europe there?s not nearly that absolute axiomatic belief. Peter Robinson: I want to return to this almighty dolphin because it made a great deal to me when I read it in the essay. And so what you?re suggesting is that the almighty dolphin is one more construct? Tom Wolfe: No. Here I agree. Peter Robinson: In almighty dolphin [cross talk] Tom Wolfe: Once again I agree with Nietzsche. Nietzsche says that we assume because we were born and we die. We know that everyone we?re aware of in our lives has gone through the cycle or is going through it. The things we eat are born and they die. All the animals are born and they die. All the crops are born and they die. We believe that everything begins and has an end. He says when in fact, that?s just our mindset. Just because everything that we see does this, that doesn?t mean that it happened to the world. And he envisions the world as just a constantly turning soup. And that probably we?ll get back to everything in eternity. Everything will repeat itself. He says, "Thank God we don?t know that we?re repeating something, and we don?t know what lies ahead," which I think is a very sophisticated theory. Peter Robinson: I cannot quite square your agreement with Nietzsche. That the world is a constantly turning soup. That is just a despairing sense of meaninglessness with the sprightliness, the sense of fun, the social perception in Tom Wolfe novels, which begin and move to an end point. There?s a sense of direction and meaning. Tom Wolfe: Well I?m counting on the next time I?m doing it right. Peter Robinson: If somebody in Boswell?s life of Johnson--Boswell reports Samuel Johnson meeting a friend in Oxford and turning to Boswell and said he tried to be a philosopher but cheerfulness kept breaking in. And I said, you mean, do you believe in nature? But he just--cheerfulness keeps breaking-- Tom Wolfe: Remember I didn?t say that I swallowed the whole philosophy. I said the predictions are not bad. Peter Robinson: To the crucible of self, Tom Wolfe, thank you very much. Tom Wolfe: You?re welcome. I enjoyed this. Peter Robinson: The crucible of self versus the findings of neuroscience. Personally I?m with Tom Wolfe. I just can?t believe that we?re all preprogrammed as ants. I wonder if there?s a television host in there. I?m Peter Robinson, thanks for joining us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 23 04:09:15 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 23:09:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences In-Reply-To: <476659.3646.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <476659.3646.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AB99F6B.507@satx.rr.com> On 9/22/2009 8:29 PM, Post Futurist wrote: > Freud narrows the environment of it, but he says our destiny is created > by the edible drama in the family that we're born into. This is true only among cannibals. Ask E. L. Wilson. His brother E. O. probably disagrees. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Sep 23 11:14:18 2009 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences In-Reply-To: <4AB99F6B.507@satx.rr.com> References: <476659.3646.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4AB99F6B.507@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <39605.12.77.168.189.1253704458.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > >> Freud narrows the environment of it, but he says our destiny is created >> by the edible drama in the family that we're born into. > > This is true only among cannibals. Ask E. L. Wilson. His brother E. O. > probably disagrees. > Damien, Is this mess representative of your difficulties with the Voice software? It would drive me nuts to try correcting that kind of thing - it's worse than spell-check errors. Regards, MB From jameschoate at austin.rr.com Wed Sep 23 12:36:34 2009 From: jameschoate at austin.rr.com (jameschoate at austin.rr.com) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:36:34 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Human brains better tooled up than monkeys In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909221634o558e8b0fjf18e6d18af3c3d3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090923123635.RETOF.514517.root@hrndva-web09-z01> Artists use tools all the time, I'd expect them to light up. I'd be more interested in how it effects theoretical physicist, astronomers, and other brainy types who can't seem to get a good grasp on the concrete....always loosing something or other, never on time, having problems with seatbelts, etc. Those who choose fields where the most complex tool interface they deal with is pen/paper (keyboard/display). ---- Emlyn wrote: > 2009/9/17 Dave Sill : > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17796-human-brains-better-tooled-up-than-monkeys.html > > > > Human brains light up when they see tools being used ? but the sight > > fails to impress the brains of macaque monkey, our fellow primates, in > > the same way. > > Have they tried this on Arts graduates as a separate subgroup? > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related > http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting > http://emlynoregan.com - main site > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- -- -- -- -- Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus James Choate jameschoate at austin.rr.com james.choate at twcable.com 512-657-1279 www.ssz.com http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center Adapt, Adopt, Improvise -- -- -- -- From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 14:59:52 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:59:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Senator from Chappaquiddick Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Lee Corbin > wrote: > > spike wrote: >>> ...On Behalf Of hkhenson >>> More than 30 years ago, a person I knew who moved in Kennedy >>> circles told me that Kennedy didn't know Mary Jo was in the back seat. >>> ...He and the woman got out, >>> and had no idea that Mary Jo was drowning in the back seat... >>> But it makes a lot more sense than the official version. >>> >>> Now that Kennedy is dead, perhaps some of the people who knew >>> what actually happened will talk about it... Keith > > ?> [In more detail] > ?>> > > ? ? According [this account], Mary Jo had gone to sleep > ? ? in the back of the car after too much alcohol. (It > ? ? wouldn't have taken much if she didn't drink often.) > > ? ? Kennedy and some other woman took off from the party > ? ? (for the usual reason he thought). Kennedy missed the > ? ? road and went down a boat ramp into the water. He and > ? ? the woman got out, and had no idea that Mary Jo was > ? ? drowning in the back seat. Kennedy didn't think much of > ? ? the silly accident and got someone else to report they > ? ? had driven the car into the water. > > ? ? When the car was fished out and the body discovered, > ? ? that story wouldn't work, he obviously could not put > ? ? Mary Jo's death on someone else. But Kennedy could not > ? ? tell the real story (which increases the odds he had a > ? ? married woman with him). > > ? ? The actual situation was told to the judge in a closed > ? ? court session. The judge treated it as a tragic accident > ? ? (which if this story is true, it was). > >> Keith thanks, this version of the story really does make more sense than the >> traditional one. ?I couldn't figure out how even a child of privelege could >> have gotten off with so few consequences. ?I could imagine witnesses at the >> party testifying that Mary Jo had too much and had left the party, then some >> time later Kennedy and someone else had left together. ?For that matter Mary >> Jo could have even been asleep in the floor behind the front seat, which >> would explain why the carpet back there had her claw marks. ?She could have >> awakened only when the car overturned, then been disoriented by alcohol and >> the bizarre circumstance of being upsidedown in a submerged Detroit. > > Like John Clark, I can't quite figure it. I put myself > in Kennedy's position upon hearing that they've just > found a dead woman in the back seat. Now what would > be more damaging? ?(A) that I had no idea, though I > was with the embarrassing Mrs. X, or (B) I panicked > and didn't seek help, and let a woman drown. > > The truth (1) sounds less culpable and even less > embarrassing, and (2) is far less dangerous since > it is the truth (and so no later story can *really* > get me in trouble. > > (Of course, it may be relevant that Kennedy was > pretty young at the time, and no telling what he > was thinking.) Lee, I can't account for either the original story or this variation, this is just what I was told by someone who seemed to know about it. If there was another woman involved, keeping her out of the story must have been really important. Keith From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 23 16:21:50 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:21:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences In-Reply-To: <39605.12.77.168.189.1253704458.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <476659.3646.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4AB99F6B.507@satx.rr.com> <39605.12.77.168.189.1253704458.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <4ABA4B1E.3080508@satx.rr.com> On 9/23/2009 6:14 AM, MB wrote: > Is this mess representative of your difficulties with the Voice software? It would > drive me nuts to try correcting that kind of thing - it's worse than spell-check > errors. You're asking the wrong person, I didn't send the mess (if you mean the grotesque transcription of the Tom Wolfe interview). That was Post Futurist. Or perhaps you're asking if mess of that kind is what voice software tends to produce? Yeah, alas, in my experience. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Sep 23 21:51:21 2009 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences In-Reply-To: <4ABA4B1E.3080508@satx.rr.com> References: <476659.3646.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4AB99F6B.507@satx.rr.com> <39605.12.77.168.189.1253704458.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <4ABA4B1E.3080508@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <39819.12.77.169.85.1253742681.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > On 9/23/2009 6:14 AM, MB wrote: > >> Is this mess representative of your difficulties with the Voice software? It >> would >> drive me nuts to try correcting that kind of thing - it's worse than spell-check >> errors. > > You're asking the wrong person, I didn't send the mess (if you mean the > grotesque transcription of the Tom Wolfe interview). That was Post > Futurist. > > Or perhaps you're asking if mess of that kind is what voice software > tends to produce? Yeah, alas, in my experience. > Thanks, Damien. I was asking the latter. Sad. I hope things will improve, it's really *got* to get better to be truly useful, IMHO. (I knew you didn't send it, you'd never have let it go like that!) Regards, MB From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 00:50:38 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:20:38 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Human brains better tooled up than monkeys In-Reply-To: <20090923123635.RETOF.514517.root@hrndva-web09-z01> References: <710b78fc0909221634o558e8b0fjf18e6d18af3c3d3d@mail.gmail.com> <20090923123635.RETOF.514517.root@hrndva-web09-z01> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909231750o36e16316p1d1b555a834b7209@mail.gmail.com> Arts is not Fine Arts. For a US audience I should have said liberal arts. Oh well. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site 2009/9/23 : > Artists use tools all the time, I'd expect them to light up. > > I'd be more interested in how it effects theoretical physicist, astronomers, and other brainy types who can't seem to get a good grasp on the concrete....always loosing something or other, never on time, having problems with seatbelts, etc. Those who choose fields where the most complex tool interface they deal with is pen/paper (keyboard/display). > > ---- Emlyn wrote: >> 2009/9/17 Dave Sill : >> > http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17796-human-brains-better-tooled-up-than-monkeys.html >> > >> > Human brains light up when they see tools being used ? but the sight >> > fails to impress the brains of macaque monkey, our fellow primates, in >> > the same way. >> >> Have they tried this on Arts graduates as a separate subgroup? >> >> -- >> Emlyn >> >> http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related >> http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting >> http://emlynoregan.com - main site >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Thu Sep 24 02:40:29 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences In-Reply-To: <39819.12.77.169.85.1253742681.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <257193.77927.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> The Wolfe piece is something one might skim over once for the novelty of reading what a v.? well known fiction writer thinks of the topic. He's a bit too theatrical to take all that seriously, but he is quite talented. If it were important, I'd have spell checked it; but as it is, in the raw, it is not illegible at all. You don't want to be fastidious Felix Unger types do you? Only important articles warrant spell checking, IMO. But I did sin. Thirty lashes w/ a wet noodle. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob4332000 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 24 02:59:25 2009 From: rob4332000 at yahoo.com (Robert Masters) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior Message-ID: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html >From the UK Telegraph: A five-year research programme, called Project Indect, aims to develop computer programmes which act as "agents" to monitor and process information from web sites, discussion forums, file servers, peer-to-peer networks and even?individual computers.Its main objectives include the "automatic detection of threats and?abnormal behaviour?or violence".....Stephen Booth, an?Open Europe analyst?who has helped compile a dossier on the European justice agenda, said these developments and projects such as Indect sounded "Orwellian" and raised serious questions about individual liberty."This is all pretty scary stuff in my book. These projects would involve a huge?invasion of privacy?and citizens need to ask themselves whether the EU should be spending their taxes on them," he said.... Rob Masters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Sep 24 05:18:20 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:18:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] water on the moon Message-ID: Cool! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,554740,00.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From florent.berthet at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 08:21:26 2009 From: florent.berthet at gmail.com (Florent Berthet) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:21:26 +0200 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d342ad70909240121v1cfe4d38lbc91d201ef3e1cf3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Robert. I am Indect. Your above email represents a threat to the authority. Therefore, agents will be at your home in the next hour to take you to the nearest police station. Thank you for your cooperation. 2009/9/24 Robert Masters > > > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html > > > From the UK Telegraph: > > > A five-year research programme, called Project Indect, aims to develop > computer programmes which act as "agents" to monitor and process information > from web sites, discussion forums, file servers, peer-to-peer networks and > even individual computers. > > Its main objectives include the "automatic detection of threats and abnormal > behaviour or violence". > > .... > > Stephen Booth, an Open Europe analyst who has helped compile a dossier on > the European justice agenda, said these developments and projects such as > Indect sounded "Orwellian" and raised serious questions about individual > liberty. > > "This is all pretty scary stuff in my book. These projects would involve a > huge invasion of privacy and citizens need to ask themselves whether the > EU should be spending their taxes on them," he said. > > ... > > > Rob Masters > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 10:19:21 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:19:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909240319s6c02b15ld544413db4d81b10@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/24 Robert Masters > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html > > From the UK Telegraph: > A five-year research programme, called Project Indect, aims to develop computer programmes which act as "agents" to monitor and process information from web sites, discussion forums, file servers, peer-to-peer networks and even?individual computers. > Its main objectives include the "automatic detection of threats and?abnormal behaviour?or violence". Let me put on for once - but the opportunities to do so are becoming so frequent that I am concerned about my political identity... :-) - my "libertarian" hat. I am not deluded that we have any chance in a fight against increasing pervasive surveillance and exposure. In fact, I am persuaded that any privacy we used to have has already been irremediably lost, even though we can still hope to some extent for the protection offered by the "background noise" generated by a too huge amount of data to be thoroughly investigated. And I suspect that any kind of measure theoretically aimed at fighting such evolution would end up in even more restrictive regulations and social control, not to mention policies with neoluddite undertones. The real issue here is that first such project should be financed as a matter of course by taxpayers who presumably in their vast majority would be more or less radically opposed, or at the very least uninterested, thereto; and secondly, that legislation exists, namely the so-called EU directive on "privacy" (!), that has enacted a de-facto State monopoly on the automatic collection and processing of personal data, let alone "sensitive" data, a practical ban existing on such activities as far as private companies, NGOs, political movements, media, citizens' organisations, etc., including for "defensive" purposes. -- Stefano Vaj From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 10:27:00 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:27:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: <6d342ad70909240121v1cfe4d38lbc91d201ef3e1cf3@mail.gmail.com> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6d342ad70909240121v1cfe4d38lbc91d201ef3e1cf3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/24/09, Florent Berthet wrote: > Hi Robert. I am Indect. Your above email represents a threat to the authority. > Therefore, agents will be at your home in the next hour to take you to the nearest > police station. > > Thank you for your cooperation. > Yea. It's about time we put a stop to all that 'abnormal' behaviour going around. What I recommend is a template of 'normality' that the current government can adjust, depending on what they consider to be the new 'normal'. The template can be set to keep prison occupancy at optimum levels. If entrepreneurs are busily building more prison capacity, then a few tweaks can easily generate more 'abnormals' to fill them. We would have to be careful not to approach US levels though, where prisoners, guards, law enforcement, legal profession, etc. are tying up too large a percentage of the population in non-productive employment. Even better if the template is kept secret, then no individual would know whether their behaviour is approaching the borderline. Keeping the population fearful is a necessity for the modern fascist state. BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Sep 24 14:21:01 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:21:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal"behavior In-Reply-To: <580930c20909240319s6c02b15ld544413db4d81b10@mail.gmail.com> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <580930c20909240319s6c02b15ld544413db4d81b10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj ... > Let me put on for once - but the opportunities to do so are > becoming so frequent that I am concerned about my political > identity... :-) - my "libertarian" hat... {Sniff...} We are so proud of you Stefano. > ... that legislation exists, namely the so-called EU directive on > "privacy" (!), that has enacted a de-facto State monopoly on > the automatic collection and processing of personal data, let > alone "sensitive" data, a practical ban existing on such > activities as far as private companies, NGOs, political > movements, media, citizens' organisations, etc., including > for "defensive" purposes. > > -- > Stefano Vaj Regarding transparency, privacy and new technology, Stefano, are you guys over there following the exploits of our new radicals? A coupld of young people hid a camera, went into ACORN offices (the organization that "helps" poor people get houses) and asked for advice on how to set up a house for child prostitution, defacto slavery in the 21st century. In at least five cases, the ACORN people calmly offered the advice, and even added how they could escape detection, evade taxes, and even how to claim the child harlots as dependents. Now ACORN is suing the moviemakers for destroying their reputation. {8^D The thing I am finding most amusing about all this is that the press is calling them conservative activists. But they are not conservative at all, they are neo-radicals. They learned from Saul Alinski's Rules for Radicals. The elderly 60s radicals do not like the new radicals. ACORN and their ilk are the new pigs. The old radicals were "right on" back then: you really can't trust anyone over 30. spike From max at maxmore.com Thu Sep 24 15:16:08 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:16:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist Message-ID: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Swallowing Eco-Hype Being a 'locavore' is supposed to be healthier for you and better for the planet, right? Maybe not. http://www.newsweek.com/id/216034 ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From asa at nada.kth.se Thu Sep 24 17:14:24 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:14:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net><6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> Message-ID: <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> spike wrote: > This gave me an idea. If anyone here has had a life-threatening illness > and > has survived, that person is an ideal candidate to help others who are > just > now entering that dark tunnel. Sounds a bit like PatientsLikeMe, http://www.patientslikeme.com/ ? (By the way, hi!) -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asa at nada.kth.se Thu Sep 24 17:16:54 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:16:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Singularity Summit 2009 - In-Reply-To: <5bae33f10909210518i3924d4d0s70c16d8cc2cdfd09@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bae33f10909210518i3924d4d0s70c16d8cc2cdfd09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Amon Zero wrote: > Good news - All the ExtroBritannia events get videoed and posted online > these days: Might of course be a bad thing if you are one of the speakers and generally embarrass yourself :-) Not that any of my talks are embarrassing, I am merely incomprehensible... But it is going to be fun to have an echo or mirror of the summit the week after. Hopefully we can transplant the enthusiasm and best memes. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asa at nada.kth.se Thu Sep 24 17:13:11 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:13:11 +0200 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <285e49ac1e80d780f13a0efb307cfad7.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> What is good for the goose is good for the gander: it seems to me that this kind of software could also be used to detect abnormal behaviour in public officials. Automating corruption detection could be a very useful task - especially if it does not need to run on government systems. Accountability enhancement might be the wave of the future. So the thing to do is 1) keep an eye on the publications of this kind of project, adopting the data mining ideas for open architectures, and 2) politically enforce as much transparency and accountability as possible in our respective governments. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Sep 24 17:36:54 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:36:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net><6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike><4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <0DA51B775AF0488296BB25FAB75A8C78@DFC68LF1> This is a great idea and a really cool site. Hi Anders! (See you tomorrow :-)) Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:14 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] survivor's database spike wrote: > This gave me an idea. If anyone here has had a life-threatening > illness and has survived, that person is an ideal candidate to help > others who are just now entering that dark tunnel. Sounds a bit like PatientsLikeMe, http://www.patientslikeme.com/ ? (By the way, hi!) -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 17:50:25 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:50:25 +0200 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal"behavior In-Reply-To: References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <580930c20909240319s6c02b15ld544413db4d81b10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909241050x600969bbqc3be4bb4eccbd23b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/24 spike : >> ... that legislation exists, namely the so-called EU directive on > Regarding transparency, privacy and new technology, Stefano, are you guys > over there following the exploits of our new radicals? > A coupld of young > people hid a camera, went into ACORN offices (the organization that "helps" > poor people get houses) and asked for advice on how to set up a house for > child prostitution, defacto slavery in the 21st century. ?In at least five > cases, the ACORN people calmly offered the advice, and even added how they > could escape detection, evade taxes, and even how to claim the child harlots > as dependents. :-))) No, never heard of such episode, or for that matter ACORN itself. Where is it based? The US? -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 17:56:21 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:56:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: <285e49ac1e80d780f13a0efb307cfad7.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <285e49ac1e80d780f13a0efb307cfad7.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <580930c20909241056r7b1a9f38i70d6e17844ded043@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/24 Anders Sandberg : > So the thing to do is 1) keep an eye on the publications of this kind of > project, adopting the data mining ideas for open architectures, and 2) > politically enforce as much transparency and accountability as possible in > our respective governments. As to point 2, the entire legislation enacted on the basis of the EU "privacy" directive and concerning *public* personal data processing is exclusively aimed at such goals, in the sense of preventing such activities to be put at the service of private interests, and/or checking that they are not. As long as the State's own interests are served, everything is game. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 18:03:36 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:03:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Human brains better tooled up than monkeys In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909231750o36e16316p1d1b555a834b7209@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0909221634o558e8b0fjf18e6d18af3c3d3d@mail.gmail.com> <20090923123635.RETOF.514517.root@hrndva-web09-z01> <710b78fc0909231750o36e16316p1d1b555a834b7209@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909241103v4bc7926fu7bb6933fcab27939@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/24 Emlyn : > Arts is not Fine Arts. For a US audience I should have said liberal > arts. Oh well. As in biochemistry state-of-the-art? Or as in an engineering BA degree? ;-) And speaking of Beaux Arts, isn't music beautiful? ;-) -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Thu Sep 24 20:29:40 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:29:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: <285e49ac1e80d780f13a0efb307cfad7.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <285e49ac1e80d780f13a0efb307cfad7.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > Subject: Re: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor > "abnormal" behavior > > What is good for the goose is good for the gander... > > So the thing to do is 1) keep an eye on the publications of > this kind of project, adopting the data mining ideas for open > architectures, and 2) politically enforce as much > transparency and accountability as possible in our respective > governments... Anders Sandberg, Anderrrrrrs! Welcome back man, hadn't seen anything from you in a long time. We have missed the hell outta you pal! I fully agree with your comment too. {8-] spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Sep 24 20:33:12 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:33:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net><6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike><4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike> > On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > Subject: Re: [ExI] survivor's database > > spike wrote: > > This gave me an idea. If anyone here has had a life-threatening > > illness and has survived, that person is an ideal candidate to help > > others who are just now entering that dark tunnel. > > Sounds a bit like PatientsLikeMe, http://www.patientslikeme.com/ ? > > (By the way, hi!) > > -- > Anders Sandberg, Ecclesiastes 1:9 (King James Version) ...The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun... Ja any good idea has already been done to death by the time I think of it. They already knew this back in the days when people lived in yurts. Thanks for the link Anders, and hi back! {8-] spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Sep 24 20:36:42 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:36:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <27A2C66C3B0A4FEF99C742B97CE0D98E@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Max More > Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist > > Swallowing Eco-Hype > > Being a 'locavore' is supposed to be healthier for you and > better for the planet, right? Maybe not. > http://www.newsweek.com/id/216034 > > ------------------------------------- > Max More, Ph.D. But Max, what if one is in a position to make a ton of money off of the locavores? Is it wrong to be a phony green? Hey I like green. It's the color of money. How about printing my own carbon credits? On recycled paper! With biodegradable ink! That just sounds so tempting to try to sell those things. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 24 21:25:07 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:25:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net><6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike><4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike> Message-ID: <4ABBE3B3.2030808@satx.rr.com> On 9/24/2009 3:33 PM, spike wrote: > Ecclesiastes 1:9 (King James Version) > > ...The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is > done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun... Eccles hadn't heard about tampons, evidently. Or a few million other items. Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 23:00:25 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:00:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <4ABBE3B3.2030808@satx.rr.com> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> <6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike> <4ABBE3B3.2030808@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 9/24/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > On 9/24/2009 3:33 PM, spike wrote: > > Ecclesiastes 1:9 (King James Version) > > ...The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is > > done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the > > sun... > > > > Eccles hadn't heard about tampons, evidently. Or a few million other items. > Oh dear, I feel a pedantic spasm coming on........... Eccles (or King Solomon to be precise) obviously wasn't talking about things. Even in these olden days new things appeared frequently. New weapons, new buildings, new clothes, etc. A clearer translation might be: Whatever has happened before will happen [again]. Whatever has been done before will be done [again]. There is nothing new under the sun. In context, he is talking about the same old things coming round again and again, spring summer autumn winter, rain and drought, day and night, etc. and the futility of it all apart from God. There are other famous quotations in that section. vanity of vanities; all is vanity. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. BillK From asa at nada.kth.se Thu Sep 24 23:29:49 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:29:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <285e49ac1e80d780f13a0efb307cfad7.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <4ABC00ED.70301@nada.kth.se> spike wrote: > Anderrrrrrs! Welcome back man, hadn't seen anything from you in a long > time. We have missed the hell outta you pal! > Thanks! It is nice to be back, seems like the place is like it usually is. The interesting thing these days is that it is not so much *place* that matters, but where we habitually put our attention. My mailbox has been receiving the list, but I have not been looking on it. Once upon a time we humans were in one place, slowly moving from place to place to interact with things there. Now we are in a sense everywhere at once, but we are aware and interacting in just some domains. We have become a fine mist, coalescing where it seems to be interesting. This is also (turning back to the thread subject) the problem for surveillance. It is only useful today in retrospect (and a bit as a signal to control behavior) since there is more footage than anybody can watch, so only footage near a detected event gets studied. Adding some more AI (in the limited sense, not AGI) might make it more real-time and could in principle allow it to be proactive ("Hey, boss! Something weird is happening on Beaumont Street!") in moving attention for its owners. The dream/nightmare is of course full attention everywhere all the time, where the system itself could interpret and deal with disturbances... ... Which seems also to be a dream also for us infovores - would it be possible to harness the same kind of AI to become omnipresent online, constantly techno-aware of *everything*? Imagine Google Gnosis, where you link up your brain to the GoogleMind and feel as if whenever you would have read or responded to something online, your outsourced mind now does this for you... (and of course you can trust Google, when using Gnosis you *know* in a profound sense that they never do evil, just show your enormously extended mind an equally enormous number of discreet adverts tuned to your innermost interests). -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Fri Sep 25 02:22:22 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:22:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor"abnormal" behavior In-Reply-To: <4ABC00ED.70301@nada.kth.se> References: <996578.33988.qm@web58308.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <285e49ac1e80d780f13a0efb307cfad7.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <4ABC00ED.70301@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: > ...We have become a fine mist, coalescing where it seems to be interesting. ... > Anders Sandberg Ah yes, a classic Andersian comment. May I put that one on my office wall? Anders, the level of discourse here became more interesting by at least 20dB the minute you arrived pal. May it encourage many fine mists to coalesce here. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 07:19:57 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:49:57 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909250019r6ec2eb5cl78de03025e972aaa@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/25 Max More : > > Swallowing Eco-Hype > > Being a 'locavore' is supposed to be healthier for you and better for the > planet, right? Maybe not. > http://www.newsweek.com/id/216034 Good article, I think I'll get his book. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 07:28:13 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:58:13 +0930 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> <6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909250028h6e7b792bn7164caa8be9fecc1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/25 spike : > > >> On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg >> Subject: Re: [ExI] survivor's database >> >> spike wrote: >> > This gave me an idea. ?If anyone here has had a life-threatening >> > illness and has survived, that person is an ideal candidate to help >> > others who are just now entering that dark tunnel. >> >> Sounds a bit like PatientsLikeMe, http://www.patientslikeme.com/ ? >> >> (By the way, hi!) >> >> -- >> Anders Sandberg, > > > Ecclesiastes 1:9 (King James Version) > > ...The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is > done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun... > > > Ja any good idea has already been done to death by the time I think of it. > They already knew this back in the days when people lived in yurts. > > Thanks for the link Anders, and hi back! ?{8-] > > spike I kicked off a thread about this a while back, looking for a word for the phenomenon of finding that your neat new idea is old news, usually via google. Damien suggested "googed", which I didn't like at the time, but it's grown on me. My wife Jodie uses it, but pronounces the OO sound like in google, rather than like in book, which was Damien's suggestion. I'm liking the former (the latter implies being egged, but would make sense to aussies only I think). Spike I don't think you were quite googed, you were sandberged. Happens to the best people. (Hi Anders) -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 07:33:07 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:03:07 +0930 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net> <6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com> <130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike> <0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike> <4ABBE3B3.2030808@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909250033rfd464c8o50cc04b512dc820e@mail.gmail.com> > There are other famous quotations in that section. > vanity of vanities; all is vanity. > For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge > increaseth sorrow. > > BillK He's sounding a bit like the Sphinx from Mystery Men. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Fri Sep 25 11:42:12 2009 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:42:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: "Max More" wrote, > Being a 'locavore' is supposed to be healthier for you and better for the > planet, right? Maybe not. > http://www.newsweek.com/id/216034 Yes, being green is great. But one has to be able to evaluate the total pros and total cons of any attempt to improve. Humans are notoriously bad at estimating their effects on things. This applies to good effects as well as bad effects. In many cases, the complete answer is non-intuitive from what our simple Monkey 2.0 brains expect. (This is because our brains are 99% monkey brains with 1% beta code.) -- Harvey Newstrom From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 14:08:04 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:08:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60909250708g11b97c17ra45328a92e46edf7@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > "Max More" wrote, >> >> Being a 'locavore' is supposed to be healthier for you and better for the >> planet, right? Maybe not. >> http://www.newsweek.com/id/216034 > > Yes, being green is great. ?But one has to be able to evaluate the total > pros and total cons of any attempt to improve. ?Humans are notoriously bad > at estimating their effects on things. ?This applies to good effects as well > as bad effects. ?In many cases, the complete answer is non-intuitive from > what our simple Monkey 2.0 brains expect. > > (This is because our brains are 99% monkey brains with 1% beta code.) ### Locovores are monkeys arrogant enough to think they can out-think the market. They disregard the price signal that integrates social utility over the whole world, and instead apply their subjective feelings to opine about things they usually know next to nothing about, like the environmental and social impact of apple farming in Chile or the energy cost of trans-oceanic shipping. In other words, locovory is the usual mixture of ignorance and self-righteous arrogance that monkeys strut around to impress other monkeys. Funny thing, as soon as I learned to blabber about local wines, my popularity with local chicks soared. When I upload myself, I'll buy some social science expansion packs to allow me to finally understand humans. Rafal From spike66 at att.net Fri Sep 25 14:14:43 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:14:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] survivor's database In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909250033rfd464c8o50cc04b512dc820e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1253543476_111359@s1.cableone.net><6137876A5BB041588619248C34B5597D@spike> <4AB857AC.4000907@rawbw.com><130ED655B695421EBFE3A7C341287C49@spike><0aeb050d2c80c7bef54eb812e9830563.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se><81C762A4770245F397CE0C6718DF469D@spike><4ABBE3B3.2030808@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0909250033rfd464c8o50cc04b512dc820e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F62D04ABCFE4D4492C2D1EC914952B6@spike> > On Behalf Of Emlyn > Subject: Re: [ExI] survivor's database > > > There are other famous quotations in that section. > > vanity of vanities; all is vanity. > > For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge > > increaseth sorrow. > > > > BillK > > He's sounding a bit like the Sphinx from Mystery Men. > > -- > Emlyn Solomon insults me with this comment. Now I hafta come up with an alternate explanation for being so cheerful most of the time. If smart equals sad, and happy is negative smart, then... spike From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 14:21:09 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:21:09 -0300 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7641ddc60909250708g11b97c17ra45328a92e46edf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <89D3B1851B6048E8AD956B060A5893FB@Notebook> Rafal Smigrodzki>Funny thing, as soon as I learned to blabber about local wines, my >popularity with local chicks soared. >When I upload myself, I'll buy some social science expansion packs to >allow me to finally understand humans. Nonsense... no social science (or any science) will ever understand women... From spike66 at att.net Fri Sep 25 14:20:31 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:20:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] man downloads brain In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/09/25/total.recall.microsoft.bell/index.html From rob4332000 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 25 14:00:27 2009 From: rob4332000 at yahoo.com (Robert Masters) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] EU institutes massive program to monitor "abnormal"behavior Message-ID: <854677.24111.qm@web58305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> 2009/9/24 spike : >> ... that legislation exists, namely the so-called EU directive on > Regarding transparency, privacy and new technology, Stefano, are you guys > over there following the exploits of our new radicals? > A coupld of young > people hid a camera, went into ACORN offices (the organization that "helps" > poor people get houses) and asked for advice on how to set up a house for > child prostitution, defacto slavery in the 21st century. ?In at least five > cases, the ACORN people calmly offered the advice, and even added how they > could escape detection, evade taxes, and even how to claim the child harlots > as dependents. :-))) No, never heard of such episode, or for that matter ACORN itself. Where is it based? The US? --? Stefano Vaj ------------- To view some of the actual tapes (along with Jon Stewart's hilarious comments), go to: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/248914/tue-september-15-2009-matt-damon (The ACORN sequence starts at 3:30.) Rob Masters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Fri Sep 25 14:32:08 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60909250708g11b97c17ra45328a92e46edf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <576055.43698.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Agreed. But sentimentality is a factor as well; town, region, familial, clan, etc. ?Too much disregard for such makes us quasi-Marxist in social, albeit not scientific, attitude. ### Locovores are monkeys arrogant enough to think they can out-think the market. They disregard the price signal that integrates social utility over the whole world, and instead apply their subjective feelings to opine about things they usually know next to nothing about, like the environmental and social impact of apple farming in Chile or the energy cost of trans-oceanic shipping. In other words, locovory is the usual mixture of ignorance and self-righteous arrogance that monkeys strut around to impress other monkeys. Funny thing, as soon as I learned to blabber about local wines, my popularity with local chicks soared. When I upload myself, I'll buy some social science expansion packs to allow me to finally understand humans. Rafal _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Fri Sep 25 14:34:09 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] bad memes, it seems Message-ID: <389618.7278.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> "Manson associate Susan Atkins became a topless dancer. During her time as a stripper, Atkins met Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey when she was hired for a stage production which featured her as a vampire." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Fri Sep 25 14:43:50 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <89D3B1851B6048E8AD956B060A5893FB@Notebook> Message-ID: <578113.33815.qm@web59912.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> We understand men, though. Men are beasts. Nonsense... no social science (or any science) will ever understand women... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nymphomation at gmail.com Sat Sep 26 00:16:02 2009 From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 01:16:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] bad memes, it seems In-Reply-To: <389618.7278.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <389618.7278.qm@web59902.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e1e56ce0909251716k4fb6fdb4o86d4b7d6da822b1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/25 Post Futurist > > "Manson associate Susan Atkins became a topless dancer. During her time as a stripper, Atkins met Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey when she was hired for a stage production which featured her as a vampire." Some progress, at least the Church of Satan are (fairly) rational atheists, bit too libertarian for my tastes. I seem to recall the CoS being described as 'Ayn Rand with horns' by some wit. The only Satanist I know personally is in Afghanistan with the Royal Signal Corp, fixing military telecomms systems. His website is kinda popular: http://www.vexen.co.uk/ =:o) Rishi Nag - 'Born On The NHS!' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aUHOM3Fr9w From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Sep 26 00:59:48 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:59:48 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60909250708g11b97c17ra45328a92e46edf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7641ddc60909250708g11b97c17ra45328a92e46edf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/26 Rafal Smigrodzki : > ### Locovores are monkeys arrogant enough to think they can out-think > the market. They disregard the price signal that integrates social > utility over the whole world, and instead apply their subjective > feelings to opine about things they usually know next to nothing > about, like the environmental and social impact of apple farming in > Chile or the energy cost of trans-oceanic shipping. In other words, > locovory is the usual mixture of ignorance and self-righteous > arrogance that monkeys strut around to impress other monkeys. How do you disentangle market from non-market? If people prefer to buy locally because they have a perhaps foolish notion that it is better, due to Green propaganda, isn't that the market at work? -- Stathis Papaioannou From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Sep 26 02:08:55 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:08:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7641ddc60909250708g11b97c17ra45328a92e46edf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60909251908r5297a160ib7fa7cb56b2028c8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/9/26 Rafal Smigrodzki : > >> ### Locovores are monkeys arrogant enough to think they can out-think >> the market. They disregard the price signal that integrates social >> utility over the whole world, and instead apply their subjective >> feelings to opine about things they usually know next to nothing >> about, like the environmental and social impact of apple farming in >> Chile or the energy cost of trans-oceanic shipping. In other words, >> locovory is the usual mixture of ignorance and self-righteous >> arrogance that monkeys strut around to impress other monkeys. > > How do you disentangle market from non-market? If people prefer to buy > locally because they have a perhaps foolish notion that it is better, > due to Green propaganda, isn't that the market at work? ### Free exchange (i.e. non-violent, non-regulated interactions between multiple entities) is a means of apportioning resources according to the desires of participants - and aside from a refusal to endorse violence, the proponent of free exchange does not pass judgment on the wisdom or folly of these desires. So yes, locovory, as long as it happens in a non-violent context, is market at work, and may not be restricted by violent means. Still, locovory is stupid. US locovores usually profess that their choice to eat e.g. Virginia apples rather than Chilean ones somehow "protects the environment" and "makes people better off" - and this is simply incorrect, since the price signal tells us that Chilean apples are more economical (i.e. more conducive to human welfare) to produce, given the comparative advantages involved here. Locovores usually do not understand the real social implications of prices - for them the price is just an arbitrary number. Furthermore, locovores tend to be insufferably smug, admonishing me with their bumper stickers to follow their lead. They believe that locovory, the sacrifice they make to pay extra for crappy products, makes them better human beings - but aside from the heady feeling of moral superiority they get, the net effect on human welfare is clearly negative and therefore locovory cannot serve as a legitimate basis for moral satisfaction. This makes locovory doubly stupid, and annoying to boot. Finally, there is always the suspicion that locovores are just xenophobic - maybe the thought of eating apples touched by brown people squicks them off (not that they would ever admit to it). So, as a principled proponent of non-violence I say to the locovores, go on and spend your $15 on a bottle of sourpiss New York wine, it's your money and your palate. Just don't expect me to like you for doing it. Rafal From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Sep 26 03:20:37 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:20:37 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60909251908r5297a160ib7fa7cb56b2028c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7641ddc60909250708g11b97c17ra45328a92e46edf7@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60909251908r5297a160ib7fa7cb56b2028c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/26 Rafal Smigrodzki : > ### Free exchange (i.e. non-violent, non-regulated interactions > between multiple entities) is a means of apportioning resources > according to the desires of participants - and aside from a refusal to > endorse violence, the proponent of free exchange does not pass > judgment on the wisdom or folly of these desires. So yes, locovory, as > long as it happens in a non-violent context, is market at work, and > may not be restricted by violent means. > > Still, locovory is stupid. US locovores usually profess that their > choice to eat e.g. Virginia apples rather than Chilean ones somehow > "protects the environment" and "makes people better off" - and this is > simply incorrect, since the price signal tells us that Chilean apples > are more economical (i.e. more conducive to human welfare) to produce, > given the comparative advantages involved here. Locovores usually do > not understand the real social implications of prices - for them the > price is just an arbitrary number. You may be right that locovores are stupid, but not because of the price signal. It is possible that something is cheaper but harmful, and that people will prefer it for its cheapness because they don't believe the harm will happen to them or won't happen for a long time. The fact that there are a lot of coal fired power stations because coal is cheap has no bearing on the empirical question of whether burning coal will harm the environment and as a result kill us all. -- Stathis Papaioannou From spike66 at att.net Sat Sep 26 22:50:14 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:50:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> Message-ID: <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> Hmmm, looks like no one ever figured out how to deal with this mess. The current president has come to the same conclusion as his predecessor on the Gitmo detainees: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/president-obama-reaffirms-po wer-of-indefinite-detention-will-not-seek-additional-congressional-powers.ht ml Obama has become the new Bush. spike From rob4332000 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 26 20:27:16 2009 From: rob4332000 at yahoo.com (Robert Masters) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist Message-ID: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: "### Free exchange (i.e. non-violent, non-regulated interactions between multiple entities) is a means of apportioning resources according to the desires of participants - and aside from a refusal to endorse violence, the proponent of free exchange does not pass?judgment on the wisdom or folly of these desires.... "Still, locovory is stupid.... "[Locovores] believe that... the sacrifice they make to pay extra for crappy products, makes them better human beings - but aside from the heady feeling of moral superiority they get, the net effect on human welfare is clearly negative...." ============ Aren't you contradicting yourself?? If I understand correctly, you are making the standard libertarian assumption that the ultimate and sole criterion of "human welfare" is the judgment of the free market.? But locovores are PART OF THE MARKET, right?? If they bid up the price of lousy New York wine, who are you to say there is anything wrong with this? There would appear to be two alternatives: (a) Human welfare is entirely a matter of ECONOMIC value, i.e., price (as determined on a free, unregulated market).? Thus, if Jerry Springer earns $10 million/yr and Richard Feynman earns $50,000 (on a free market), then Springer's services really are worth 200 times as much as Feynman's. (b) There are non-economic values (e.g., moral, intellectual and esthetic values), and human welfare cannot be measured by prices alone. If (b) is correct (as I believe), it doesn't necessarily?follow that coercion is warranted to enforce non-economic values.? One can argue, in particular cases, that the consequences of coercion are worse than the results of a free market (e.g., that, on net balance, society would be a better place if there were no drug war).? Or one can claim that coercion ("initiation of force") is ALWAYS immoral, in some ultimate, deontological sense, regardless of other considerations.? Libertarians often seem to be relying on the latter contention--which, in practice, is more or less equivalent to alternative (a) above (i.e., "The only standard of human welfare is what people choose in an uncoerced, free market").? Am I correct in understanding that that is your position? Rob Masters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 26 23:40:02 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:40:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/26/09, Robert Masters wrote: > > Aren't you contradicting yourself? If I understand correctly, you are making the > standard libertarian assumption that the ultimate and sole criterion of "human > welfare" is the judgment of the free market. But locovores are PART OF THE > MARKET, right? If they bid up the price of lousy New York wine, who are you > to say there is anything wrong with this? > > There would appear to be two alternatives: > > (a) Human welfare is entirely a matter of ECONOMIC value, i.e., price (as > determined on a free, unregulated market). Thus, if Jerry Springer earns $10 > million/yr and Richard Feynman earns $50,000 (on a free market), then > Springer's services really are worth 200 times as much as Feynman's. > > (b) There are non-economic values (e.g., moral, intellectual and esthetic values), > and human welfare cannot be measured by prices alone. > You can't win an argument against the libertarian 'free' market belief. If you point out some of the many failings, they will just say 'Ah but that example wasn't really a free market'. You can then point out that they can never achieve the perfect 'free' market that their theory requires. But they won't accept that their utopia can never be attained. If you are a *very* determined arguer and back them into a corner, then you can sometimes get them to say that, Yes they do believe that Springer is worth 200 Feynmans, because that is what the theory demands. But they will never accept that uncontrolled markets are a sure recipe for every kind of fraud, crooked dealing and sheer insanity. Even after it has almost destroyed the world economic systems. BillK From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Sep 26 23:56:54 2009 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:56:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com><036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> Message-ID: > Hmmm, looks like no one ever figured out how to deal with this mess. The > current president has come to the same conclusion as his predecessor on > the > Gitmo detainees: > > http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/president-obama-reaffirms-po > wer-of-indefinite-detention-will-not-seek-additional-congressional-powers.ht > ml > > Obama has become the new Bush. No, Spike. He's not the new Bush ... Obama inherited this mess from the The-Biggest-Affirmative-Action-Baby-of-Them-All. Furthermore, this is not news. Observe what happened back in May (portion below is from his speech): "But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who have received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, commanded Taliban troops in battle, expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/21/obama-national-archives-s_n_206189.html http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=05&year=2009&base_name=lingering_question_on_obamas_g From spike66 at att.net Sun Sep 27 05:54:32 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:54:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com><036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike><2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin > Subject: Re: [ExI] barack W. obama > .... > > The current president has come to the same conclusion as his > > predecessor on the Gitmo detainees: > > > > > > > > > Obama has become the new Bush. > > No, Spike. He's not the new Bush ... Obama inherited this > mess... ....but campaigned by saying he would solve it. > Furthermore, this is not news. Observe what happened back in > May (portion below is from his speech)... ....but he was already elected by May. How should W have handled it? The above isn't necessarily criticism of either W or H. I sure as hell can't figure out how to deal with those guys either. The constitution doesn't have a category for those who aren't exactly POWs, don't have an actual country, but can't really be treated as ordinary criminals either. spike From moulton at moulton.com Sun Sep 27 06:44:51 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:44:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> On Sat, 2009-09-26 at 13:27 -0700, Robert Masters wrote: > If I understand correctly, you are making the standard libertarian > assumption that the ultimate and sole criterion of "human welfare" is > the judgment of the free market. You do not understand correctly. The statement which you claim as the "standard libertarian assumption" is not a libertarian assumption. I doubt that anyone takes it as a standard assumption; the only use for it is as part of a strawman argument. Fred From asa at nada.kth.se Sun Sep 27 12:43:19 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:43:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> Message-ID: <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> Food is the new religion: besides having presumed effects on you (that are expounded by an expert priesthood), it is an effective way of signalling social status, culture and values to oneself and others. And since many of the facts are relatively hard to check, there is little pesky falsification of beliefs. A locavore (or Atkins dieter or organic fan) is very unlikely to hold their views because they are the most rational views given known evidence, but will easily get reinforcement in the form of placebo, selective news and various social feedback processes. The reason we have these food fashions and food religions is of course that food is cheap, plentiful and has a high diversity. And that is fundamentally a free market effect. It is so plentiful that you cannot show status by eating lot of food, or even eating expensive food - you need to show off by eating the "right" food, as defined by a complex discourse that takes some effort to follow and puts you in the same group as other high status people. That the facts the group claims as reasons may be completely unfounded is irrelevant. There is a free market of ideas and group membership too, and correctness is unfortunately just one price factor. My suggestion is that we form our own high-status food-cult, "rational eaters". We want food that actually *is* good for us, the environment and the rest of mankind. Of course, researching it and getting it is going to be a major undertaking - which is good, since that demonstrates committment and makes the group more impressive. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 13:45:15 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:45:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: <62c14240909270645j75e4d5abqc3865553e03bbee2@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > The reason we have these food fashions and food religions is of course that > food is cheap, plentiful and has a high diversity. And that is fundamentally > a free market effect. It's not cheap, plentiful and diverse in every part of Earth. Do we care? Should we cover the expense of shipping a box of mac&cheese around the world for each imported apple, even if the apple-producer is not the recipient of the mac&cheese? > My suggestion is that we form our own high-status food-cult, "rational > eaters". We want food that actually *is* good for us, the environment and > the rest of mankind. Of course, researching it and getting it is going to be > a major undertaking - which is good, since that demonstrates committment and > makes the group more impressive. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it > too. You're not going to get invited to appear on Oprah with a group name like "rational eaters" :) From eschatoon at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 14:11:17 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:11:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> Interesting: "[food] is an effective way of signalling social status, culture and values to oneself and others" I only like "working class" food, greasy food, full of all sort of unhealthy elements. I don't like vegetables and eat fruit only as a medicine any now and then. Give me pasta with metaballs and a lot of sauce, sausages, grilled meat and thick bean soups. I mostly like things which I can eat with a spoon. Yes, before I forget it, I am a smoker too, and a unrepentant one. These things may well send a social status message. Well, screw social status then. G. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Food is the new religion: besides having presumed effects on you (that are > expounded by an expert priesthood), it is an effective way of signalling > social status, culture and values to oneself and others. And since many of > the facts are relatively hard to check, there is little pesky falsification > of beliefs. A locavore (or Atkins dieter or organic fan) is very unlikely to > hold their views because they are the most rational views given known > evidence, but will easily get reinforcement in the form of placebo, > selective news and various social feedback processes. > > The reason we have these food fashions and food religions is of course that > food is cheap, plentiful and has a high diversity. And that is fundamentally > a free market effect. > > It is so plentiful that you cannot show status by eating lot of food, or > even eating expensive food - you need to show off by eating the "right" > food, as defined by a complex discourse that takes some effort to follow and > puts you in the same group as other high status people. That the facts the > group claims as reasons may be completely unfounded is irrelevant. There is > a free market of ideas and group membership too, and correctness is > unfortunately just one price factor. > > My suggestion is that we form our own high-status food-cult, "rational > eaters". We want food that actually *is* good for us, the environment and > the rest of mankind. Of course, researching it and getting it is going to be > a major undertaking - which is good, since that demonstrates committment and > makes the group more impressive. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it > too. > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 14:56:33 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:56:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: <580930c20909270756j237c2864x524dfb2e508cb304@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/27 Anders Sandberg : > Food is the new religion: besides having presumed effects on you (that are > expounded by an expert priesthood), it is an effective way of signalling > social status, culture and values to oneself and others. And since many of > the facts are relatively hard to check, there is little pesky falsification > of beliefs. A locavore (or Atkins dieter or organic fan) is very unlikely to > hold their views because they are the most rational views given known > evidence, but will easily get reinforcement in the form of placebo, > selective news and various social feedback processes. Yes. As a motivated Atkins True Believer, I can testify to that. ;) -- Stefano Vaj From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 15:40:52 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:40:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/27/09, Giulio Prisco wrote: > I only like "working class" food, greasy food, full of all sort of > unhealthy elements. I don't like vegetables and eat fruit only as a > medicine any now and then. Give me pasta with metaballs and a lot of > sauce, sausages, grilled meat and thick bean soups. I mostly like > things which I can eat with a spoon. Yes, before I forget it, I am a > smoker too, and a unrepentant one. > Watch out! The food police will be coming after you. :) Slate draws attention to an article in the New England Journal of Medicine, co-authored by the health commissioner of New York City, the surgeon general of Arkansas, and several others. (Slate is critical, of course). Quote: Taxation has been proposed as a means of reducing the intake of these beverages and thereby lowering health care costs, as well as a means of generating revenue that governments can use for health programs. Currently, 33 states have sales taxes on soft drinks (mean tax rate, 5.2%), but the taxes are too small to affect consumption and the revenues are not earmarked for programs related to health. This article examines trends in the consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages, evidence linking these beverages to adverse health outcomes, and approaches to designing a tax system that could promote good nutrition and help the nation recover health care costs associated with the consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages. ----------------- I liked their paragraph citing 'market failures' as a justification for intervention and higher taxation of unhealthy foodstuffs. It struck me that their description of 'market failures' could pretty well apply to almost every market dreamed up by mankind. Quote: Economic Rationale Economists agree that government intervention in a market is warranted when there are "market failures" that result in less-than-optimal production and consumption. Several market failures exist with respect to sugar-sweetened beverages. First, because many persons do not fully appreciate the links between consumption of these beverages and health consequences, they make consumption decisions with imperfect information. These decisions are likely to be further distorted by the extensive marketing campaigns that advertise the benefits of consumption. A second failure results from time-inconsistent preferences (i.e., decisions that provide short-term gratification but long-term harm). This problem is exacerbated in the case of children and adolescents, who place a higher value on present satisfaction while more heavily discounting future consequences. Finally, financial "externalities" exist in the market for sugar-sweetened beverages in that consumers do not bear the full costs of their consumption decisions. Because of the contribution of the consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages to obesity, as well as the health consequences that are independent of weight, the consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages generates excess health care costs. Medical costs for overweight and obesity alone are estimated to be $147 billion ? or 9.1% of U.S. health care expenditures ? with half these costs paid for publicly through the Medicare and Medicaid programs. -------------- BillK From eschatoon at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 15:45:42 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:45:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909270845qb1d9a63k9d18ef816baa173f@mail.gmail.com> You say this as a joke, but the sad fact is that a food police would be perfectly in character with the nanny-state dictatorship that our societies are becoming. Freedom is freedom to bite one's own nails, even if they are dirty. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 5:40 PM, BillK wrote: > On 9/27/09, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> I only like "working class" food, greasy food, full of all sort of >> ?unhealthy elements. I don't like vegetables and eat fruit only as a >> ?medicine any now and then. Give me pasta with metaballs and a lot of >> ?sauce, sausages, grilled meat and thick bean soups. I mostly like >> ?things which I can eat with a spoon. Yes, before I forget it, I am a >> ?smoker too, and a unrepentant one. >> > > > Watch out! The food police will be coming after you. ? :) From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 16:09:15 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:09:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60909270909u46ea8af9m809afa51cc6cdf0c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/26 Robert Masters > > Aren't you contradicting yourself? If I understand correctly, you are > making the standard libertarian assumption that the ultimate and sole > criterion of "human welfare" is the judgment of the free market. But > locovores are PART OF THE MARKET, right? If they bid up the price of lousy > New York wine, who are you to say there is anything wrong with this? > ### I am not saying that locovory is wrong (i.e. immoral, going against my moral beliefs), I only say it's stupid. When you read what I wrote, don't make the common mistake of assuming that one form of censure (dismissal as being stupid) automatically entails more generalized judgment (moral condemnation). Locovores are for the most part dumb, not evil. ----------------- > > There would appear to be two alternatives: > > > (a) Human welfare is entirely a matter of ECONOMIC value, i.e., price (as > determined on a free, unregulated market). Thus, if Jerry Springer earns > $10 million/yr and Richard Feynman earns $50,000 (on a free market), then > Springer's services really are worth 200 times as much as Feynman's. > > > (b) There are non-economic values (e.g., moral, intellectual and esthetic > values), and human welfare cannot be measured by prices alone. > > > If (b) is correct (as I believe), it doesn't necessarily follow that > coercion is warranted to enforce non-economic values. One can argue, in > particular cases, that the consequences of coercion are worse than the > results of a free market (e.g., that, on net balance, society would be a > better place if there were no drug war). Or one can claim that coercion > ("initiation of force") is ALWAYS immoral, in some ultimate, deontological > sense, regardless of other considerations. Libertarians often seem to be > relying on the latter contention--which, in practice, is more or less > equivalent to alternative (a) above (i.e., "The only standard of human > welfare is what people choose in an uncoerced, free market"). Am I correct > in understanding that that is your position? > > > ### After many years of thinking about the kind of dilemmas you outlined above, I came to the conclusion that non-initiation of violence within the in-group is the most welfare-enhancing arrangement for in-group members, in almost all realistic scenarios. This is not a deontological belief but rather a consequentialist conclusion (the distinction between deontology and consequentialism is a bit tricky though, and it depends on your conception of time, and I don't have the time to explore it here). However, it doesn't mean that Springer is more valuable than Feynman - it only means that threatening to kill people to give more money to Feynman, or even more to Springer, will not be welfare-enhancing. It also doesn't mean that human welfare can be fully measured by analysis of price structures, it only means that using violence to distort prices makes people worse off. In other words, what you describe as two alternative conclusions relevant to my stance on locovory, is in fact a tangent. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 16:25:42 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:25:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909270845qb1d9a63k9d18ef816baa173f@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909270845qb1d9a63k9d18ef816baa173f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909270925w5b48a28ao586879aec91aba18@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/27 Giulio Prisco (2nd email) > You say this as a joke, but the sad fact is that a food police would > be perfectly in character with the nanny-state dictatorship that our > societies are becoming. > OTOH, I am not overly scandalised by taxes on tobacco, alcohol and firearms, and I think we could live with a tax on soft drinks, which serve no conceivable dietary purpose and may indirectly generate some additional burden for a given country's health-related costs (exactly as I could live with the application of the same model for the recreational use of drugs...). Only, one must pay attention to keep such taxes at the highest possible level which still remains low enough not to allow a black-market economy to flourish... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 16:27:15 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:27:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: <7641ddc60909270927y15c06977n67954f80e884fef6@mail.gmail.com> Nice to see you here again, Anders! On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Food is the new religion: besides having presumed effects on you (that are > expounded by an expert priesthood), it is an effective way of signalling > social status, culture and values to oneself and others. ### Hanging out with Robin sure has an effect of on people! Yes, signaling is probably the main mechanism for the spread of the locovory meme, for reasons you describe below. Otherwise why would they bother with the bumper stickers? -------------------- > > My suggestion is that we form our own high-status food-cult, "rational > eaters". We want food that actually *is* good for us, the environment and > the rest of mankind. Of course, researching it and getting it is going to be > a major undertaking - which is good, since that demonstrates committment and > makes the group more impressive. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it > too. ### Here I am bit skeptical - rationality goes against the grain of a lot of common attitudes (chauvinism, pessimism, make-work bias, authoritarianism), and being conspicuously rational can make you an outcast. Away from this list I'd rather stick to talking about the weather, tchotchkes, spiritually elevating rapport-building mumbo-jumbo, and the like. YMMV. Rafal From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 16:35:00 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:35:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20909270935xc1b487nc809e60706ed7226@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/27 spike > > Hmmm, looks like no one ever figured out how to deal with this mess. The > current president has come to the same conclusion as his predecessor on the > Gitmo detainees: > > > http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/president-obama-reaffirms-po > > wer-of-indefinite-detention-will-not-seek-additional-congressional-powers.ht > ml > > Wasn't it nice when politicians felt compelled at least to *pretend* that they were in compliance with their own legal system, rather than adopting an openly "consequentialist" attitude? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 16:36:22 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:36:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60909270936m2d687f0apeed04a1546294477@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:40 AM, BillK wrote: > > I liked their paragraph citing 'market failures' as a justification > for intervention and higher taxation of unhealthy foodstuffs. It > struck me that their description of 'market failures' could pretty > well apply to almost every market dreamed up by mankind. > ### Bill, we live in an imperfect world, full of failures but violence will not make it better. Whatever convoluted justifications they invent, you do not show you are a nice person by advocating the killing of innocent people. Bear it in mind whenever you demand "intervention" by groups of armed thugs. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 16:46:21 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:46:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <580930c20909270756j237c2864x524dfb2e508cb304@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <580930c20909270756j237c2864x524dfb2e508cb304@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60909270946s580a9e47p48e08c47fa656b54@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > 2009/9/27 Anders Sandberg : >> Food is the new religion: besides having presumed effects on you (that are >> expounded by an expert priesthood), it is an effective way of signalling >> social status, culture and values to oneself and others. And since many of >> the facts are relatively hard to check, there is little pesky falsification >> of beliefs. A locavore (or Atkins dieter or organic fan) is very unlikely to >> hold their views because they are the most rational views given known >> evidence, but will easily get reinforcement in the form of placebo, >> selective news and various social feedback processes. > > Yes. As a motivated Atkins True Believer, I can testify to that. ;) ### I'd say the Atkins diet is different from locovory or organic eating - it is not a way of signaling moral superiority but rather a set of beliefs about losing weight. I started with a dismissive attitude towards Atkins 10 years ago but after reading about the studies done I totally changed my mind - now I think that this diet is pretty good in achieving weight loss (although I never tried it myself). Rafal From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 17:34:11 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:34:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60909270936m2d687f0apeed04a1546294477@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60909270936m2d687f0apeed04a1546294477@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/27/09, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### Bill, we live in an imperfect world, full of failures but violence > will not make it better. Whatever convoluted justifications they > invent, you do not show you are a nice person by advocating the > killing of innocent people. Bear it in mind whenever you demand > "intervention" by groups of armed thugs. > Pull the other one, Rafal. You are just as violent as the rest of mankind. Mankind is top of the heap because higher intelligence made them the best killing species on earth. We live in a very violent world and we have to try to make the best of it. Intervention by groups of armed thugs is necessary to stop brutal actions by other armed thugs. Whether we become armed thugs ourselves for self defense, or hire mercenaries to defend our enclave, or rely on governmental forces, it all comes down to the same thing in the end. The only way to protect yourself from violent gangs is to be on the side of a bigger, more violent gang. In a civilized society, government thugs are generally to be preferred over Mafia-style private armies or local vigilante gangs. In fact government forces give us the freedom to pretend to be non-violent, because they keep the level of violent crime down so that it has little impact on our lives. But it is a big stretch for you to accuse me of wanting to kill innocent people because I posted an article discussing the possibility of higher taxes on unhealthy foods. :) BillK From asa at nada.kth.se Sun Sep 27 17:45:29 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:45:29 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60909270927y15c06977n67954f80e884fef6@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <7641ddc60909270927y15c06977n67954f80e884fef6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Nice to see you here again, Anders! The same! > ### Hanging out with Robin sure has an effect of on people! Yes, Robin's cynicism is quite contagious! Signalling may not be the explanation for everything, but it sure is mixed up with a lot of what we do. > Yes, > signaling is probably the main mechanism for the spread of the > locovory meme, for reasons you describe below. Otherwise why would > they bother with the bumper stickers? There are other reasons too. Take the Atkins diet: if more people follow it, it becomes easier to follow for you too - more food is prepared that fits it, you don't get excluded as being weird etc. Diets with more ideological baggage will of course want to spread more loudly. But I think there is signalling even with the on the surface most utilitarian food fads. I vividly remember the flamewars I have seen over which weight-loss diet was best: people invest a lot of emotion and identity into their diet. And once your diet reflects your self image, then you are likely to want to promote it a bit. Which reminds me, time to get something to eat. Hmm, what signals do I want to send to whom today...? -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Sep 27 18:08:45 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:08:45 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60909270936m2d687f0apeed04a1546294477@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ABFAA2D.8050205@libero.it> BillK ha scritto: > But it is a big stretch for you to accuse me of wanting to kill > innocent people because I posted an article discussing the possibility > of higher taxes on unhealthy foods. :) Given the dependencies of governments from taxes, I bet any tax source will be preserved. So, the best way to preserve soft drinks is to tax them, so the government will have good reasons to not ban them and to protect them from competition. They banned alcohol until they needed the revenues. Then they legalized it and taxed it. The food pyramid supported by the US government could see as a way to enhance the selling of this type of beverages. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Sep 27 18:11:54 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:11:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com><036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike><2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> Message-ID: <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> spike ha scritto: >> ...On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin >> Subject: Re: [ExI] barack W. obama > .... >>> The current president has come to the same conclusion as his >>> predecessor on the Gitmo detainees: >>> Obama has become the new Bush. >> No, Spike. He's not the new Bush ... Obama inherited this >> mess... > ....but campaigned by saying he would solve it. >> Furthermore, this is not news. Observe what happened back in >> May (portion below is from his speech)... > ....but he was already elected by May. How should W have handled it? The > above isn't necessarily criticism of either W or H. I sure as hell can't > figure out how to deal with those guys either. The constitution doesn't > have a category for those who aren't exactly POWs, don't have an actual > country, but can't really be treated as ordinary criminals either. Your Constitution have not figured out that politicians in charge would not declare war against organizations like al-Qaeda and similar and, simply, hang them all without an afterthought when caputured. The solution is simply, but politicians don't like it. Declare war, kill them until they surrender or there are no one to kill. The captured, close them in prisons, if their side abide to the rules of war; if it don't, kill them like the thugs they are. And give a damn about the enemy civilians losses; the enemy don't have this problem with your civilians. I remember England declared war to pirates and slavers back in the XVIII century, and they had not many problems to hang them or put them in jail forever. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Sep 27 18:16:31 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:16:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <580930c20909270925w5b48a28ao586879aec91aba18@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909270845qb1d9a63k9d18ef816baa173f@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909270925w5b48a28ao586879aec91aba18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ABFABFF.2050805@libero.it> Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > 2009/9/27 Giulio Prisco (2nd email) > > > You say this as a joke, but the sad fact is that a food police would > be perfectly in character with the nanny-state dictatorship that our > societies are becoming. > > > OTOH, I am not overly scandalised by taxes on tobacco, alcohol and > firearms, and I think we could live with a tax on soft drinks, which > serve no conceivable dietary purpose and may indirectly generate some > additional burden for a given country's health-related costs (exactly as > I could live with the application of the same model for the recreational > use of drugs...). > > Only, one must pay attention to keep such taxes at the highest possible > level which still remains low enough not to allow a black-market economy > to flourish... Stefano, if in Iran and Saudi Arabia exist a black market for alcohol and ham, there is no way. If they are not able to prevent this, no one will be able to prevent soft drink consumption. Taxes high enough to discourage the consumption will always cause prices so high to encourage contraband. Look at the cigarettes at Naples. Do you really want Mafia and Camorra and Triads to be able to tap money even from food and beverages for the masses? What is the cost to enforce this? They try in the UK schools, and they pay it with a lower interest in the children grades. Mirco From nymphomation at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 18:29:32 2009 From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:29:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> Message-ID: <7e1e56ce0909271129q4ef7efc6sbf25060cc34e6fbd@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/27 Mirco Romanato : > spike ha scritto: > >>> ...On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] barack W. obama > >> .... >>>> >>>> The current president has come to the same conclusion as his predecessor >>>> on the Gitmo detainees: >>>> Obama has become the new Bush. >>> >>> No, Spike. ?He's not the new Bush ... Obama inherited this mess... >> >> ....but campaigned by saying he would solve it. > >>> Furthermore, this is not news. ?Observe what happened back in May >>> (portion below is from his speech)... >> >> ....but he was already elected by May. ?How should W have handled it? ?The >> above isn't necessarily criticism of either W or H. ?I sure as hell can't >> figure out how to deal with those guys either. ?The constitution doesn't >> have a category for those who aren't exactly POWs, don't have an actual >> country, but can't really be treated as ordinary criminals either. > > Your Constitution have not figured out that politicians in charge would not > declare war against organizations like al-Qaeda and similar and, simply, > hang them all without an afterthought when caputured. Is there any reason why their constitution didn't cover the native Americans they murdered after 1787? Heavy splashings, Thee Nymphomation 'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner will be appointed to you free of charge by the court' From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 19:58:06 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:58:06 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <7641ddc60909270927y15c06977n67954f80e884fef6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909271258w8a37adfo4680af5123eee24b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/27 Anders Sandberg > There are other reasons too. Take the Atkins diet: if more people follow > it, it becomes easier to follow for you too - more food is prepared that > fits it, you don't get excluded as being weird etc. Diets with more > ideological baggage will of course want to spread more loudly. But I think > there is signalling even with the on the surface most utilitarian food > fads. I vividly remember the flamewars I have seen over which weight-loss > diet was best: people invest a lot of emotion and identity into their > diet. And once your diet reflects your self image, then you are likely to > want to promote it a bit. > Not to mention the social angle, as when you whisper in the ear of your date: "Well, you know, be it as it may, carbohydrates are not really good for predators...". ;-) Being carnivorous by now is even sexier than Anne Rice's vampires. More seriously, I think that after all dietary ideologies have something to do with transhumanism. See under "biological self-determination & overcoming". -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 20:05:17 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:05:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/27 Mirco Romanato > The solution is simply, but politicians don't like it. > Declare war, kill them until they surrender or there are no one to kill. > The captured, close them in prisons, if their side abide to the rules of > war; if it don't, kill them like the thugs they are. > And give a damn about the enemy civilians losses; the enemy don't have this > problem with your civilians. > > I remember England declared war to pirates and slavers back in the XVIII > century, and they had not many problems to hang them or put them in jail > forever. > While I am not always (euphemism!) on the same political side of Mirco, I have no real qualms about somebody fighting their enemies. Including when I might actually be considered as an enemy myself. :-) What I do not really like is hypocrisy, sanctimoniousness and inconsistency. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 20:21:28 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:21:28 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <4ABFAA2D.8050205@libero.it> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60909270936m2d687f0apeed04a1546294477@mail.gmail.com> <4ABFAA2D.8050205@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20909271321g789b51afs4f276773c34ad81d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/27 Mirco Romanato > The food pyramid supported by the US government could see as a way to > enhance the selling of this type of beverages. > Indeed. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 21:52:58 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:52:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62c14240909271452h37e09c01pee5d690b537d4a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:40 AM, BillK wrote: > Economic Rationale > > Economists agree that government intervention in a market is warranted > when there are "market failures" that result in less-than-optimal > production and consumption. Several market failures exist with respect > to sugar-sweetened beverages. First, because many persons do not fully > appreciate the links between consumption of these beverages and health > consequences, they make consumption decisions with imperfect > information. These decisions are likely to be further distorted by the > extensive marketing campaigns that advertise the benefits of > consumption. A second failure results from time-inconsistent > preferences (i.e., decisions that provide short-term gratification but > long-term harm). This problem is exacerbated in the case of children > and adolescents, who place a higher value on present satisfaction > while more heavily discounting future consequences. Finally, financial > "externalities" exist in the market for sugar-sweetened beverages in > that consumers do not bear the full costs of their consumption > decisions. Because of the contribution of the consumption of > sugar-sweetened beverages to obesity, as well as the health > consequences that are independent of weight, the consumption of > sugar-sweetened beverages generates excess health care costs. Medical > costs for overweight and obesity alone are estimated to be $147 > billion ? or 9.1% of U.S. health care expenditures ? with half these > costs paid for publicly through the Medicare and Medicaid programs. Care to throw the government subsidy, Corn Refiners of America and sugar tariffs into the HFCS equation? I wrote a paper for school which summarizes, and cites sources: http://docs.google.com/View?id=d7v2qpt_36chw585fd From spike66 at att.net Sun Sep 27 22:11:24 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 15:11:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com><036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike><2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Subject: Re: [ExI] barack W. obama 2009/9/27 Mirco Romanato >>The solution is simply, but politicians don't like it. Declare war, kill them until they surrender or there are no one to kill... >While I am not always (euphemism!) on the same political side of Mirco, I have no real qualms about somebody fighting their enemies...What I do not really like is hypocrisy, sanctimoniousness and inconsistency...Stefano Vaj Here's what has changed, and the really important aspect for transhumanists and everyone living in modern times: the transparency provided by the web. In the old days, the government had the power to just hang the bastards. Today I would argue that it doesn't have that power. Everyone on the planet can easily get any computer and google the US constitution and recognize quickly that it doesn't give guidance in this particular situation. Anyone can also follow the fate of those currently interned at the base in Cuba, henceforth indefinitely. If they are hanged or face a firing squad, the previous president may face criminal charges for ordering their capture in the first place, and the current WH occupant could face murder charges. I see nothing in the US constitution that allows the terrorists to be captured, tried, held, executed, or tortured, but releasing them is not acceptable either. I don't know what the hell we do in that case, but the transparency provided by the web focuses laser beam attention on the problem. The current president and both his predecessors failed to find solutions to the terrorist problem, and I have not yet heard from anyone a reasonable and legal solution. The web also focuses plenty of attention on the fact that the current WH occupant was elected on criticism of his predecessor and the promise that he could solve this. Well now what? spike From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Sep 28 00:03:41 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:03:41 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx Message-ID: Is there a fundamental energy or entropy cost of moving matter around? If I want to send a mass M from point A to point B within time T, how much would that cost? Obviously there are concerns of friction in terrestrial environments, but I am mostly concerned here with interstellar distances. To get a distance d within time T requires a speed greater than d/T, which implies a kinetic energy of at least [-1 + 1/sqrt(1-(d/Tc)^2)]Mc^2. I need to do this much work to get it moving, but I can also get the work back by catching the object in a skillfull manner. The drawback is of course that now I have also moved the energy from A to B too. Worse, the system launching the mass at A and the system receiving it at B will now have acquired a slight velocity away from each other due to momentum conservation. To me this looks a bit like some kind of entropy effect: to restore the systems to their original rest positions and velocities a further 2d/[T sqrt(1-(d/Tc)^2)] Joules have to be spent in station-keeping to get rid of the momentum, losing that energy as "waste momentum". Is there something akin to thermodynamics here suggesting we must always pay this price? As always, GR complicates things: Jack Wisdom has shown that it is possible to move without expending energy permanently by "swimming" in a curved spacetime: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6706 In Schwartzschild geometry the amount of motion you get per stroke scales as 1/r^3 and is pretty microscopic: for meter-sized objects on the Earth's surface the displacement is on the order of 1e-23 meters. So this is pretty useless over larger distances or when T is short. Further work has produced glider models that appear more efficient, http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0612131 although the effect is still pretty tame. The glider, if it oscillates its parts at 10% of c, manages to move itself 10^-4 of the distance it falls in a gravity field. Are there any other ways of moving from A to B, and what would their costs be? -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 00:17:24 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:17:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/28 spike > I see nothing in the US constitution that allows the terrorists to be > captured, tried, held, executed, or tortured, but releasing them is not > acceptable either. > Mmhhh. Nothing in the interpretation of the US constitution seems to have forbidden declaring war on foreign entities for some three centuries, something which in turn gives place, at least in theory, with the applicability of the international war law. Dealing sanctimonously with enemies as if they were "criminals", and *then* blatantly infringing your own criminal law rules according to what may be more expedient depending on the circumstances, does not really sound as much of an improvement thereto. Clinton was sentenced by a Yugoslavian court, *after* the fall of Milosevic if I am not mistaken, to twenty-years' imprisonment for "acts of terrrorism", the latter being defined as the bombing of buildings by the citizen of a country not being technically at war with Yugoslavia, the fact of using B-3 bombers rather than airlines planes as in 9/11 being inessential to the definition, according to Yugo laws which are still in force. Of course, a sentence which would be very unlikely to be enforced even if Mr. Clinton ever visited the country. Does it really make sense to go on playing this game? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 28 01:37:20 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:37:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com><036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike><2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it><580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com><4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Subject: Re: [ExI] barack W. obama 2009/9/28 spike I see nothing in the US constitution that allows the terrorists to be captured, tried, held, executed, or tortured, but releasing them is not acceptable either. ... >Does it really make sense to go on playing this game? -- Stefano Vaj Ja it does, because we are in a situation where every president, immediately upon taking office, becomes a law breaker. We may end up with an odd situation where each sitting president must use executive authority to pardon or block prosecution of her immediate predecessor, otherwise face prosecution herself immediately upon leaving office. I get the feeling this is almost what we have today. The reason this is unacceptable is that it offers presidents too much freedom to break other laws besides the ones having to do with how to handle captured terrorists. >Does it really make sense to go on playing this game? I don't know how to stop playing this game. If we send the terrorists the message that the US will not or cannot legally retaliate, we invite ever more terrorism. As much as I dislike the idea, I expect the US constitution needs to be amended to define how to deal with terrorists. How can we do that without giving the government still more power? spike From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 28 04:07:32 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:07:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] FW: Interstellar FedEx Message-ID: <42A8D03D7CF6434D8B9F63333E084B9C@spike> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 5:04 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx Is there a fundamental energy or entropy cost of moving matter around? If I want to send a mass M from point A to point B within time T, how much would that cost?... -- Anders Sandberg, Fundamental energy cost, yes, easily derived. But entropy cost, I don't think there is an enherent entropy cost. Do let me ponder and derive, and get back with you later on that Anders. Terrific question! spike From eschatoon at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 05:43:58 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:43:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <580930c20909270925w5b48a28ao586879aec91aba18@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909270845qb1d9a63k9d18ef816baa173f@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909270925w5b48a28ao586879aec91aba18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909272243x295aa4bbk40e5074a9049ac53@mail.gmail.com> Seeing this from another point of view: everyone understands that a black-market economy will develop if taxes become too high or the goods become too difficult to obtain. So black-markets play a useful role to help keeping the greed of bureaucrat control-freaks in check. This could be extended to other areas of public policy, with interesting results. 2009/9/27 Stefano Vaj : > Only, one must pay attention to keep such taxes at the highest possible > level which still remains low enough not to allow a black-market economy to > flourish... > > -- > Stefano Vaj From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 07:43:40 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:43:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <62c14240909271452h37e09c01pee5d690b537d4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <62c14240909271452h37e09c01pee5d690b537d4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/27/09, Mike Dougherty wrote: > Care to throw the government subsidy, Corn Refiners of America and > sugar tariffs into the HFCS equation? > > I wrote a paper for school which summarizes, and cites sources: > http://docs.google.com/View?id=d7v2qpt_36chw585fd > > Coincidentally, I see that you have just missed the Boston Fluff Festival last weekend. Boston celebrates Marshmallow Fluff Sept. 27 (UPI) -- Bostonians say there's nothing like their beloved Marshmallow Fluff, a sugary local confection celebrated during the weekend at the city's Union Square. Fans of the treat -- made of corn and sugar syrups, vanilla flavor and egg white ? gathered Saturday in Boston to honor the local favorite at the annual "What the Fluff?" festival, The Boston Globe reported. ---------------- A few years back, when junk food was being banned from Boston school meals, an attempt was made to ban Fluff as well, on the feeble grounds that it was 50% sugar. The attempt failed. BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 10:02:59 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:02:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60909270936m2d687f0apeed04a1546294477@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60909280302n21fa0b11i73ddf754987ae13a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 1:34 PM, BillK wrote: > Pull the other one, Rafal. ?You are just as violent as the rest of mankind. ### No, I am not. I didn't vote, although I could have done it. I mind my own business. ------------------- > Mankind is top of the heap because higher intelligence made them the > best killing species on earth. ### Who do you want to kill today? ---------------- "Intervention by groups of armed thugs is necessary to stop brutal > actions by other armed thugs." " The only way to protect > yourself from violent gangs is to be on the side of a bigger, more > violent gang." ### Read your words again and reflect on them. And then think why you wrote these words in the context of discussing other people's diets. ----------- > > But it is a big stretch for you to accuse me of wanting to kill > innocent people because I posted an article discussing the possibility > of higher taxes on unhealthy foods. ?:) > ### Really? So what you (or your "bigger, more violent gang") gonna do if I refuse to pay the unhealthy food tax? Gently reason with me? Rafal From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Sep 28 10:33:25 2009 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909272243x295aa4bbk40e5074a9049ac53@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909270845qb1d9a63k9d18ef816baa173f@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909270925w5b48a28ao586879aec91aba18@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909272243x295aa4bbk40e5074a9049ac53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42508.12.77.168.247.1254134005.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Giulio Prisco, Sounds like we enjoy the same kinds of food! :) I do patronize the local "tailgate market" where people can sell their home grown fresh veggies. Those veggies usually do taste better (being only a few hours off the plant) than the veggies in my grocery store (which are often sorta withered and limp). Regards, MB no longer a smoker, but not a TobaccoNazi. From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Sep 28 10:51:44 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:51:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Don't be a locavore fundamentalist In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909272243x295aa4bbk40e5074a9049ac53@mail.gmail.com> References: <830149.57600.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1254033891.14585.150.camel@desktop-linux> <4ABF5DE7.4020109@nada.kth.se> <1fa8c3b90909270711w7bb62c53q6eba9321c8f87373@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909270845qb1d9a63k9d18ef816baa173f@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909270925w5b48a28ao586879aec91aba18@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909272243x295aa4bbk40e5074a9049ac53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC09540.4000506@nada.kth.se> Giulio Prisco (2nd email) wrote: > Seeing this from another point of view: everyone understands that a > black-market economy will develop if taxes become too high or the > goods become too difficult to obtain. So black-markets play a useful > role to help keeping the greed of bureaucrat control-freaks in check. > This could be extended to other areas of public policy, with > interesting results. It is a bit of a meta-libertarian view: the degree of state control is subject to self-organizing influences. Robert Nozick used this in his argument why a minarchist state would emerge from a purely anarchist state of nature. In the other direction, a too overreaching state will eventually be subjected to corrections from angry citizens (whether as violent rebels or annoyed voters), economic feedbacks or changes in how well the regulations actually work (e.g. black markets, people exploiting a too complex system). Whether this view actually works is unclear: it is not obvious that there is a single optimum we would converge to, there might be "metamarket failures" that actually prevents convergence to something good, and the process itself might have human costs we are not willing to take. In the case of the threat of emerging black markets this only discourages control-freak decisionmakers who recognize that they are a bad thing. Incompetent or short-sighted bureucrats may not see the problem (case in point: a tobacco tax in Sweden in the 90's that led to a flourishing of organized crime powered by cigarette-smuggling). They might think the drawbacks are worth taking, especially if they are deontological (anti-abortion people likely think that a black abortion market is bad, but much less morally bad than free access to abortions - the number counts less than the immorality of the action). And there are some corrupt bureaucrats who will simply exploit the emerging black market. An open democratic society tends to handle the first and last category decently: stupidities are pointed out, corrupt people uncovered and forced to resign. The second category will however potentially remain, keeping politics interesting. In a less healthy society there might be a phase transition to corruption when enough bureaucrats are in the third category: at this point they have an incentive to impose more black market-producing rules for their own gain, and the bureaucrat who doesn't gets left behind. As more of the market becomes black, there is a decrease in efficiency, oversight and accountability that in turn reduces the rule of law, making corruption even more tempting. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 11:01:32 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:01:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/28 spike : > Ja it does, because we are in a situation where every president, immediately > upon taking office, becomes a law breaker. ?We may end up with an odd > situation where each sitting president must use executive authority to > pardon or block prosecution of her immediate predecessor, otherwise face > prosecution herself immediately upon leaving office. ?I get the feeling this > is almost what we have today. Aren't we say the same thing? The alternative would be: declare war if you feel you need to, stop dealing with enemies as if they were criminals and you were involved in a law-enforcement exercise. This would be best for the US legal system *and* for US enemies, who would not be considered as criminal defendants from a procedural point of view, but at the same time would be under the (relative) protection of international law, e.g., the Geneva Convention, and recognised as legitimate combatants. The only loser would be the propaganda pretence of merely administering some kind of divine justice, rather than openly looking, within limits dictated by usage and reciprocity, after one's own interests throughout the world, as even the US used to do, say, during the XIX century. -- Stefano Vaj From protokol2020 at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 11:07:44 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:07:44 +0200 Subject: [ExI] FW: Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <42A8D03D7CF6434D8B9F63333E084B9C@spike> References: <42A8D03D7CF6434D8B9F63333E084B9C@spike> Message-ID: You can use as little entropy as you want to, for to move something from A to B., The lower limit is 0. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Sep 28 11:31:34 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:31:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] FW: Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <42A8D03D7CF6434D8B9F63333E084B9C@spike> Message-ID: <4AC09E96.1070603@nada.kth.se> Tomaz Kristan wrote: > You can use as little entropy as you want to, for to move something > from A to B., The lower limit is 0. Why? Note that I'm interested in finite-time movement of macroscopic masses. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From protokol2020 at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 12:30:00 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:30:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] FW: Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <4AC09E96.1070603@nada.kth.se> References: <42A8D03D7CF6434D8B9F63333E084B9C@spike> <4AC09E96.1070603@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: It is the same thing. You can pay more, and often you do, but the lower limit is 0. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 28 14:36:48 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:36:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com><036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike><2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it><580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com><4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike><580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj > Subject: Re: [ExI] barack W. obama > > 2009/9/28 spike : > > Ja it does, because we are in a situation where every president, > > immediately upon taking office, becomes a law breaker... > > Aren't we say the same thing? The alternative would be: > declare war if you feel you need to, stop dealing with > enemies as if they were criminals and you were involved in a > law-enforcement exercise... Stefano Vaj In the case of most terrorists, they commit their crimes (such as training in the arts of bomb making) within the borders of an ally, as is the case today with the US and Afghanistan. We are aiding the Afghan government in slaying their (and our) enemies living within the Afghan borders, using drones guided from an office back here in the states. If that isn't sufficiently legally murky, wait a few more years until we develop mostly autonomous drones, who creep up on and slay the terrorists in the night, based on pre-programmed decisions on how to identify a terrorist. At that time, a bunch of military field commanders and every sitting president would be lawbreakers. spike From spike66 at att.net Mon Sep 28 14:39:10 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:39:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] FW: Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <4AC09E96.1070603@nada.kth.se> References: <42A8D03D7CF6434D8B9F63333E084B9C@spike> <4AC09E96.1070603@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: <713E745B2B714B35A2D8EDAE685B53C2@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > Subject: Re: [ExI] FW: Interstellar FedEx > > Tomaz Kristan wrote: > > You can use as little entropy as you want to, for to move something > > from A to B., The lower limit is 0. > Why? > > Note that I'm interested in finite-time movement of > macroscopic masses. > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University Ja. If springs are used to accelerate and decelerate the mass for instance, there is always some friction in the spring, and some entropy created upon contact of the mass to the decelerating spring. But I think Tomaz might be right: the lower limit approaches zero even in finite time movement. spike From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Sep 28 14:55:53 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:55:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] FW: Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <42A8D03D7CF6434D8B9F63333E084B9C@spike> <4AC09E96.1070603@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: Tomaz Kristan wrote: > It is the same thing. You can pay more, and often you do, but the lower > limit is 0. Could you point me to some derivation of this? Because I frankly suspect it is not true, at least not in empty space. Consider two stations in space at rest to each other. One has a compressed spring with a payload in front of it. It releases the spring, and the payload shoots towards the other station. The first station begins to drift away in the opposite direction. The payload reaches the other station, where it meets an identical spring that slows it to rest relative to the station. Now the other station also is drifting, since it gained momentum from the payload. The energy that was in the original spring can be sent back to the first station for example by extending the spring when connected to a generator, converting the energy into laser light, which is then received at the first station and used to compress its spring. No energy has been lost so far. But the stations are now drifting apart at a certain velocity. To prevent this and retain their relative position both need to expend momentum just when the payload leaves/arrives. This momentum seems to be lost forever into a useless form - an entropic cost. We can certainly imagine that the stationkeeping momentum gets transferred to other stations that require that same momentum just at that moment. But this makes it impossible to launch payloads at arbitrary points in time or with arbitrary velocities. Skipping the stationkeeping makes the system less useful in the future, since the stations now are drifting apart. Usually entropy resides in the energy component of a physical model and sometimes in the positional component, but here it seems that the entropy ends up in the momentum component of the model. One can look at it from a reversibility perspective. If something happens to cause an object to move from A to B where something else happens to slow it down, then under time reversal the opposite process should be possible. But the station-keeping under time reversal seems to be one of those processes where disorganized matter and energy arrive from infinity to produce a very well-defined outcome. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 15:36:55 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:36:55 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909280836w7289d913n9cf41b7fddcb790d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/28 spike > In the case of most terrorists, they commit their crimes (such as training > in the arts of bomb making) within the borders of an ally, as is the case > today with the US and Afghanistan. > Terrorists as in "the armed forces and the supporters of a government which was overthrown by an American military party"? :-) There is however an abundant legal history of non-State fighting parties, such as privateers, Indian tribes, the WWII Resistance movements, the national liberation fronts in colonised countries, not to mention armed groups of some international profile, such as the OLP or the IRA. Even the precedents of the British Empire fighting the American insurgents during the War of Independence may be relevant in terms of common law. ;-) What would be so new, other than an ill-conceived intention to deal with the problem in terms of criminal law for propaganda reasons? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob4332000 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 28 15:24:35 2009 From: rob4332000 at yahoo.com (Robert Masters) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Logicomix Message-ID: <851055.91805.qm@web58305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Holt-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1 From the New York Times: Well, this is unexpected ? a comic book about the quest for logical certainty in mathematics. The story spans the decades from the late 19th century to World War II, a period when the nature of mathematical truth was being furiously debated. The stellar cast, headed up by Bertrand Russell, includes the greatest philosophers, logicians and mathematicians of the era, along with sundry wives and mistresses, plus a couple of homicidal maniacs, an apocryphal barber and Adolf Hitler. ... Is it madness to be driven by a passion for something as inhuman as abstract certainty? This is a question the four creators of ?Logicomix? ponder as, in a beguiling coda, they make their way through nighttime Athens to an open-air performance of the ?Oresteia.? Oddly enough, Aeschylus? trilogy furnishes the concluding wisdom, which, at the risk of triteness, I?ll condense into a mathematical inequality: Life > logic. Rob Masters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Sep 28 18:14:15 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:14:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <7e1e56ce0909271129q4ef7efc6sbf25060cc34e6fbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <036878872CB246EF96D8ED0B9B5101AB@spike> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <7e1e56ce0909271129q4ef7efc6sbf25060cc34e6fbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC0FCF7.7090204@libero.it> *Nym* ha scritto: > Is there any reason why their constitution didn't cover the native > Americans they murdered after 1787? I suppose because Constitution involve themselves with the broad organization and basic rules of their nation/state and the duties/right of their citizens. No-citizens are managed under "other" and, usually, have not the same duties/rights of citizens; sometimes they have none. Mirco From max at maxmore.com Mon Sep 28 22:25:18 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:25:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Multiplicity of similar species: what's the mechanism/explanation? Message-ID: <200909282252.n8SMqBoi013861@andromeda.ziaspace.com> The Angry Evolutionist By Richard Dawkins http://www.newsweek.com/id/216140 (1) Dawkin says: "My favorites, however, are the free-living turbellarian worms, of which there are more than 4,000 species: that's about as numerous as all the mammal species put together." That made me think again about the curious fact (I least I think it's a fact, without checking) that there are vastly more species of insects (especially ants) and arachnids as there are mammals or "more complex" creatures. I realized that I don't really know why that's the case. Right now I'm too lazy to try to find an answer in my biology books. I can make some guesses (like "a simpler/smaller genome varies more, and each variant finds sufficient room in the same ecological niche"), but I'd like to hear if there is a well-developed and compelling explanation. (2) A quite different thought from the foregoing: Why isn't Dawkin's question (in his 8th paragraph) answered (at least somewhat plausibly) by creationists with this?: "Because tapeworms have no skeleton" I'm not sure he can really conclude that "This argument, at a stroke, completely and finally destroys the creationist case that the Precambrian gap in the fossil record can be taken as evidence against evolution." -- until he addresses the skeleton point. Indeed, right after Dawkin's has made his argument, he comments: "Probably, most animals before the Cambrian were soft-bodied like modern flatworms, probably rather small like modern turbellarians?just not good fossil material." Dawkins (rightly) says the creationists can't have it both ways, but isn't he having it both ways here? He's (a) using the tapeworm example against the creationists -- a case that seems to require that we should expect ready fossilization despite their lack of a skeleton, and also (b) explaining the gaps in the fossil record on the basis that most pre-Cambrian creatures (or "evolutures"!) were "soft-bodied". Of course, I'm very sympathetic to Dawkins, but his argument, as presented, bothers me. Am I missing something? (For the record, I have read no book and not much else by Dawkins since The Selfish Gene. Has anyone yet read his latest: The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution?) Max ------------------------------------- Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher Extropy Institute Founder www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com ------------------------------------- From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 22:57:10 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:57:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Anniversary Message-ID: <580930c20909281557r5ef99b19yea06ff995058f75c@mail.gmail.com> Best wishes of a zillion more birthdays to celebrate, Giulio! -- Stefano Vaj From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Sep 28 23:01:32 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:01:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx Message-ID: Continuing my scratching at this problem; now I found a paper that supports my intuition that there has to be a cost, but I'm unhappy with their method too! "Write or Radiate?" by Christopher Rose www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~crose/papers/vtc03_2.pdf demonstrates that under many conditions sending inscribed information is energetically more efficient than radiating it. He also gets an energy cost equal to the kinetic energy of the particle, but he derives it using a frankly bizarre statistical argument. http://www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~crose/cgi-bin/cosmic4.html has a lot of related links. Including this fun paper from Annals of Improbable Research: http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume11/v11i4/sluggish-data-11-4.pdf (the South African demonstration with pigeons gives independent support http://tinyurl.com/kne2xs ) More seriously, this seems to imply that if you need to ship around a lot of entropy, sending it by shipping matter may be the best strategy (lasers have a pretty lousy heat capacity). If the matter has specific entropy S bits/kg and mass m, then the cost of sending it somewhere at speed v will be 0.5mv^2. So I get a cost of v^2/2S Joule per bit. So I can get very low costs by decreasing v, at the price of having more matter in transit - at v=0 there is no cost, but I am essentially just piling up entropy around myself. Hmm, so what is the most entropic kind of stable matter? -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 23:02:03 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:02:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Multiplicity of similar species: what's the mechanism/explanation? In-Reply-To: <200909282252.n8SMqBoi013861@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200909282252.n8SMqBoi013861@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 9/28/09, Max More wrote: > The Angry Evolutionist > By Richard Dawkins > http://www.newsweek.com/id/216140 > > (1) Dawkin says: "My favorites, however, are the free-living turbellarian > worms, of which there are more than 4,000 species: that's about as numerous > as all the mammal species put together." > > That made me think again about the curious fact (I least I think it's a > fact, without checking) that there are vastly more species of insects > (especially ants) and arachnids as there are mammals or "more complex" > creatures. I realized that I don't really know why that's the case. Right > now I'm too lazy to try to find an answer in my biology books. I can make > some guesses (like "a simpler/smaller genome varies more, and each variant > finds sufficient room in the same ecological niche"), but I'd like to hear > if there is a well-developed and compelling explanation. > I think this answers your first question. Why Are There So Many More Species Of Insects? Because Insects Have Been Here Longer ScienceDaily (Apr. 4, 2007) ? J. B. S. Haldane once famously quipped that "God is inordinately fond of beetles." Results of a study by Mark A. McPeek of Dartmouth College and Jonathan M. Brown of Grinnell College suggest that this fondness was expressed not by making so many, but rather by allowing them to persist for so long. This is a surprisingly simple answer to a fundamental biological puzzle. They accumulated data from molecular phylogenies (which date the evolutionary relationships among species using genetic information) and from the fossil record to ask whether groups with more species today had accumulated species at faster rates. Animals as diverse as mollusks, insects, spiders, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals appear to have accumulated new species at surprisingly similar rates over evolutionary time. Groups with more species were simply those that had survived longer. Their analyses thus identify time as a primary determinant of species diversity patterns across animals. --------------- BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Sep 28 23:11:47 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:11:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC142B3.8020808@satx.rr.com> On 9/28/2009 6:01 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Hmm, so what is the most entropic kind of stable matter? Dick Cheney? Maybe not *entirely* stable, though. Damien Broderick [opinions will differ, no doubt] From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 00:14:33 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:14:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <4AC142B3.8020808@satx.rr.com> References: <4AC142B3.8020808@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670909281714x579b31efx2c76a4b242d9c23@mail.gmail.com> Oh my gosh, Anders is back! And he's even better educated and insightfully brilliant than I remember him being! Truly, The Force is strong in this one as he grows stronger by the day... John : ) On 9/28/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > On 9/28/2009 6:01 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > >> Hmm, so what is the most entropic kind of stable matter? > > Dick Cheney? Maybe not *entirely* stable, though. > > Damien Broderick > [opinions will differ, no doubt] > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Tue Sep 29 00:35:19 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:35:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <580930c20909280836w7289d913n9cf41b7fddcb790d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it><580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com><4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike><580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com><580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280836w7289d913n9cf41b7fddcb790d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7130626E09CD4E61AE0F0E0D233172FB@spike> ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Subject: Re: [ExI] barack W. obama 2009/9/28 spike >>In the case of most terrorists, they commit their crimes (such as training in the arts of bomb making) within the borders of an ally, as is the case today with the US and Afghanistan. ... >There is however an abundant legal history of non-State fighting parties, such as privateers, Indian tribes, ... >Even the precedents of the British Empire... Thanks Stefano, you set me up perfectly for my main point of this whole thread: > What would be so new... Stefano Vaj What is so new is the transparency provided by the internet. We now have eyes and ears that were never available to the masses before the mid 90s. We have an additional ~20 IQ points in the form of massive quantitites of externalized knowledge right at our fingertips, in a searchable controllable format. Thirty years ago no one would worry about a couple hundred ill-defined non-state acting hostiles being held prisoner somewhere far away. Hell we wouldn't even know about it, much less would we be going nuts pondering it daily. The web changes everything. Now we focus laser beam attention on the fact that our own government violates the constitution, regardless of what it does. spike From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Sep 29 01:15:53 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:15:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <7130626E09CD4E61AE0F0E0D233172FB@spike> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it><580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com><4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike><580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com><580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280836w7289d913n9cf41b7fddcb790d@mail.gmail.com> <7130626E09CD4E61AE0F0E0D233172FB@spike> Message-ID: <4AC15FC9.9060608@libero.it> spike ha scritto: > What is so new is the transparency provided by the internet. I think not. > We now have > eyes and ears that were never available to the masses before the mid 90s. We have the MSM that try to shape the narrative to fit their illusions. This is the main reason the Guantanamo Prisoners are so hot news. They trumpet some and hush others. Do you remember Noriega? Kevin Mitnik stayed in a jail for four years before the trial and was in solitary confinement, because law enforcement officials convinced a judge that he had the ability to "start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone". > We have an additional ~20 IQ points in the form of massive quantitites of > externalized knowledge right at our fingertips, in a searchable controllable > format. > Thirty years ago no one would worry about a couple hundred > ill-defined non-state acting hostiles being held prisoner somewhere far > away. The attitude is not changed, the MSM is changed. > Hell we wouldn't even know about it, much less would we be going nuts > pondering it daily. Maybe the thing is that people is nut and having nothing better to do they ponder on this and come out with nutty ideas. Mainly the people that hate the US and their people (like Mr. Alinsky). My opinion is this: If the government is unable to fix the matter, the people must fix the government. If they don't, bad for them. > The web changes everything. Now we focus laser beam attention on the fact > that our own government violates the constitution, regardless of what it > does. What the Constitution have to to with aliens detained outside of the soil of the US? There is some part of the Constitution detailing rights of hostile aliens or any aliens. Could you point it out? Mirco From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 01:16:57 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:46:57 +0930 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/28 Stefano Vaj : > 2009/9/28 spike : >> Ja it does, because we are in a situation where every president, immediately >> upon taking office, becomes a law breaker. ?We may end up with an odd >> situation where each sitting president must use executive authority to >> pardon or block prosecution of her immediate predecessor, otherwise face >> prosecution herself immediately upon leaving office. ?I get the feeling this >> is almost what we have today. > > Aren't we say the same thing? The alternative would be: declare war if > you feel you need to, stop dealing with enemies as if they were > criminals and you were involved in a law-enforcement exercise. > > This would be best for the US legal system *and* for US enemies, who > would not be considered as criminal defendants from a procedural point > of view, but at the same time would be under the (relative) protection > of international law, e.g., the Geneva Convention, and recognised as > legitimate combatants. > > The only loser would be the propaganda pretence of merely > administering some kind of divine justice, rather than openly looking, > within limits dictated by usage and reciprocity, after one's own > interests throughout the world, as even the US used to do, say, during > the XIX century. > > -- > Stefano Vaj I agree with what (I think) Stefano is saying. If you've got no way to legally detain these people, then let them go. The precedent being set here is far worse for the US than the danger posed by a handful of people. In the future, declare war where appropriate. It seems to me that there's a problem with the law here, in that you've got no good system for dealing with "asymmetrical warfare" combatants, and "non state actors". So fix that, and move forward. Surely, if you find yourself detaining people indefinitely on foreign soil, it's a sign that you are approaching things the wrong way. If it was a movie, it's what the bad guys would be doing. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 01:42:58 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:12:58 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <4AC142B3.8020808@satx.rr.com> References: <4AC142B3.8020808@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909281842m42ba1234lfc5d953ee4d1481a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/29 Damien Broderick : > On 9/28/2009 6:01 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > >> Hmm, so what is the most entropic kind of stable matter? > > Dick Cheney? Maybe not *entirely* stable, though. > > Damien Broderick > [opinions will differ, no doubt] > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > While we're getting partisan, the Texan contingent might like this: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/george_w_bush_chuckles_to_self -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Tue Sep 29 02:02:17 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:02:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com><2D14A96425A443619A6E6BDF764EAC78@spike> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it><580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com><4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike><580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com><580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > ... > > I agree with what (I think) Stefano is saying. If you've got > no way to legally detain these people, then let them go... Emlyn, what consequences could you imagine from doing that? What message would you be sending to the other aspiring terrorists? > ...precedent being set here is far worse for the US than the > danger posed by a handful of people... It isn't the handful of people that is a danger, it is the loud and clear message that the US will not defend itself from terror. > In the future, declare war where appropriate... Where appropriate, sure. But the picture gets very pixellated with non-state actors. The only reason we can do anything at all is that al Qaida and the Taliban *did* declare war on the US, in 1994. Of course it took us several years to notice, but Osama bin Ladin declared war. The COTUS did not acknowledge the declaration, nor did it declare war against aQ. So now I suppose we can semi-legitimately hold as POWs, all known aQs and Taliban, but I can easily imagine independent terrorists acting on foreign soil against western interests but not associated with aQ or Taliban. Then what? Can we assume them criminals, like the Somali pirates? What if you do? How do you work the whole 8th amendment rights notion with foreign non-aQ non-state actors? > It seems to me that there's a problem with the law here, in > that you've got no good system for dealing with "asymmetrical warfare" > combatants, and "non state actors". So fix that, and move forward... Do offer some suggestion on how to fix that. > > Surely, if you find yourself detaining people indefinitely on > foreign soil, it's a sign that you are approaching things the > wrong way. If it was a movie, it's what the bad guys would be doing... Emlyn How would the good guys deal with this maddening situation? If you can figure out how, we will elect YOU as the POTUS, against your will if necessary. We can do that Emlyn, for altho our constitution specifically requires that one be a natural born US citizen to be POTUS, it does not actually say that one is required to *prove* that one was born in the USA. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Sep 29 01:40:49 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:40:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > ...Hmm, so what is the most entropic kind of stable matter? > > Anders Sandberg, Anders, I need to review my thermo books to be sure, but I think the answer to that question is molecular hydrogen in the form of a cloud in interstellar space. It might depend on how you define stable matter.: the answer might be atomic hydrogen. I have been thinking about the original question of how to derive the equation for inherent entropy production in moving mass. I have a thought experiment for you. Imagine a rigid structure deep in the hard vacuum of interstellar space. It might help to visualize it if I give it some arbitrary dimensions: this structure is a tube a light second in length with identical coil springs at either end. The springs have a ratchet mechanism which will hold the spring compressed, and a trigger which will release the ratchet, allowing the spring to decompress. Now imagine the spring at the east end of the structure compressed and locked, with a mass on the end. The spring at the west end of the tube is uncompressed. Imagine pulling the release trigger, which accelerates the mass to a micro-c, or about 300 meters per second. I chose that speed because anyone who has ever flown commercially can easily visualize that, since you have been close to that speed. OK so the spring decompresses and launches the mass along the tube, so that a million seconds later, or about 12 days, when the mass arrives at the west end of the tube, it collides with the west spring and compresses that spring, which then locks at maximum compression. Both before and after the 12 day flight, the tube is at rest with respect to an external observer, and a spring is compressed before and after, and a mass has been moved a light second, so one might argue there has been no entropy production, but this is not exactly right, as will be shown. Consider the east spring. At the point in time where the east spring releases the mass, the mass is travelling at 300 meters per second, but notice that the end of the east spring is also moving at 300 meters per second, so two things can be said. The east spring is now oscillating, a form of energy storage. This is completely unavoidable, no matter what you do. The third law is out to get us. So the identical west spring cannot compress as far as the east spring was to start with. The energy lost will be back at the oscillating first spring. Before the event you have one compressed spring and everything is still and quiet. After the event, you have moved the mass a light second and have one oscillating spring. You can launch the mass back to where it started, but after that initial trigger release, you always have at least one oscillating spring. In general, the energy of oscillation in that spring cannot be recovered. In that particular thought experiment, you demonstrate that moving a mass cannot be made perfectly reversible. The third law is called a law for a reason. It isn't just a suggestion. It means business. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 02:29:58 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:59:58 +0930 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/29 spike : > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn >> ... >> >> I agree with what (I think) Stefano is saying. If you've got >> no way to legally detain these people, then let them go... > > Emlyn, what consequences could you imagine from doing that? ?What message > would you be sending to the other aspiring terrorists? What message are you sending now? How does that compare? Surely the whole sending-a-message idea has been exposed as a clusterf**k by now. >> ...precedent being set here is far worse for the US than the >> danger posed by a handful of people... > > It isn't the handful of people that is a danger, it is the loud and clear > message that the US will not defend itself from terror. You can defend yourself from terror by calming down. It's an emotion. This kind of detention and warfare and what not would likely be more about defending yourself from hostile people intent on doing you harm. I think the world is largely clear on the idea that the US will defend itself against such people. >> In the future, declare war where appropriate... > > Where appropriate, sure. ?But the picture gets very pixellated with > non-state actors. ?The only reason we can do anything at all is that al > Qaida and the Taliban *did* declare war on the US, in 1994. ?Of course it > took us several years to notice, but Osama bin Ladin declared war. ?The > COTUS did not acknowledge the declaration, nor did it declare war against > aQ. So is there no way to do the equivalent of declaring war on an organisation? If not, why not? > > So now I suppose we can semi-legitimately hold as POWs, all known aQs and > Taliban, but I can easily imagine independent terrorists acting on foreign > soil against western interests but not associated with aQ or Taliban. ?Then > what? ?Can we assume them criminals, like the Somali pirates? ?What if you > do? ?How do you work the whole 8th amendment rights notion with foreign > non-aQ non-state actors? If they are on US soil, and they commit criminal acts (including "intent"), then they are criminals. A non-aQ, non-state actor against whom you have no evidence of wrong doing and who is on foreign soil, well, that could be describe me! I'd say you could also call that person an innocent foreigner who you could leave well enough alone. >> It seems to me that there's a problem with the law here, in >> that you've got no good system for dealing with "asymmetrical warfare" >> combatants, and "non state actors". So fix that, and move forward... > > Do offer some suggestion on how to fix that. Yep. Declare war on organisations. If it's even more complex than that, then maybe you're doing it wrong? >> >> Surely, if you find yourself detaining people indefinitely on >> foreign soil, it's a sign that you are approaching things the >> wrong way. If it was a movie, it's what the bad guys would be doing... > Emlyn > > How would the good guys deal with this maddening situation? They'd send Rambo in to free the hostages. > If you can figure out how, we will elect YOU as the POTUS, against your will > if necessary. ?We can do that Emlyn, for altho our constitution specifically > requires that one be a natural born US citizen to be POTUS, it does not > actually say that one is required to *prove* that one was born in the USA. > > spike Hawaii is a real state you know. Just because you can't drive there, it still counts :-) -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Tue Sep 29 03:08:36 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:08:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it><580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com><4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike><580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com><580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com><710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com><563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Emlyn > ... > > If you can figure out how, we will elect YOU as the POTUS, against > > your will if necessary. ?We can do that Emlyn, for altho our > > constitution specifically requires that one be a natural born US > > citizen to be POTUS, it does not actually say that one is > required to *prove* that one was born in the USA. > > > > spike > > Hawaii is a real state you know. Just because you can't drive > there, it still counts :-) > Emlyn Emlyn you were born in Hawaii? I did assume you were born in Australia. In any case that will make it all that much easier to draft you as POTUS. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 03:58:28 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:28:28 +0930 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909282058t2e12d632r1fceec1291b2cd31@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/29 spike : > > >> ...On Behalf Of Emlyn >> ... >> > If you can figure out how, we will elect YOU as the POTUS, against >> > your will if necessary. ?We can do that Emlyn, for altho our >> > constitution specifically requires that one be a natural born US >> > citizen to be POTUS, it does not actually say that one is >> required to *prove* that one was born in the USA. >> > >> > spike >> >> Hawaii is a real state you know. Just because you can't drive >> there, it still counts :-) > Emlyn > > > Emlyn you were born in Hawaii? ?I did assume you were born in Australia. ?In > any case that will make it all that much easier to draft you as POTUS. > > spike I wish I were, seems like a lovely place. Meanwhile, Australia is looking like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGDz-WH86u0 -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 04:10:00 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:10:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC18898.7090306@satx.rr.com> On 9/28/2009 9:29 PM, Emlyn wrote: >> We can do that Emlyn, for altho our constitution specifically >> > requires that one be a natural born US citizen to be POTUS, it does not >> > actually say that one is required to*prove* that one was born in the USA. >> > spike > Hawaii is a real state you know. Just because you can't drive there, > it still counts :-) Emlyn, you are sadly gullible. Don't you understand yet that Obama bin Laden is a reptiloid time criminal hatched in Gondwanaland? How else could he have planted that official birth certificate and newspaper notice? Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 04:19:41 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:49:41 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime Message-ID: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> Just to change the mood a little :-) http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in-my-lifetime/ -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From asyluman at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 04:24:52 2009 From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:24:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime: I'm so young. On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Emlyn wrote: > Just to change the mood a little :-) > > http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in-my-lifetime/ > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related > http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting > http://emlynoregan.com - main site > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Sep 29 04:44:09 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:44:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC19099.2000204@rawbw.com> Emlyn wrote: > 2009/9/29 spike : > >> So now I suppose we can semi-legitimately hold as POWs, all known aQs and >> Taliban, but I can easily imagine independent terrorists acting on foreign >> soil against western interests but not associated with aQ or Taliban. Then >> what? Can we assume them criminals, like the Somali pirates? What if you >> do? How do you work the whole 8th amendment rights notion with foreign >> non-aQ non-state actors? > > If they are on US soil, and they commit criminal acts (including > "intent"), then they are criminals. Yes. > A non-aQ, non-state actor against whom you have no evidence of wrong > doing and who is on foreign soil, well, that could be describe me! I'd > say you could also call that person an innocent foreigner who you > could leave well enough alone. "No *evidence* of wrong doing"?? It would not be a good idea in my opinion to try to use courtroom standards in judging "evidence" in a war zone. All innocent foreigners, even in countries where western soldiers are being shot at, should be left alone, yes I totally agree. Who wouldn't? But under those conditions, suspected enemies should be harshly dealt with. Errors will be made, but more harm than good would follow by treating each such suspect according to the legal rights western nations concede their own citizens. Anyway, errors of commission like these are ubiquitous, from the courtrooms of Stockholm to the streets of any Brazilian slum. Yes, we ought to always do the best we can to avoid them, but not beyond what is practicable when people are liable to be shooting at you. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Sep 29 04:46:09 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:46:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC19111.9090200@rawbw.com> Emlyn wrote: > Just to change the mood a little :-) > http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in-my-lifetime/ Thanks for the optimism and good wishes. But I think that the truth is that the odds were never that great to begin with, and seem to be diminishing a bit every day. Lee From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 06:02:25 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:02:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: <4AC19111.9090200@rawbw.com> References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> <4AC19111.9090200@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <4AC1A2F1.6060902@satx.rr.com> On 9/28/2009 11:46 PM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Emlyn wrote: > >> Just to change the mood a little :-) >> http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in-my-lifetime/ >> > > Thanks for the optimism I rather think, Lee, that Emlyn was expressing a rather harrowing (if grimly funny) view of our likely near-term fate. Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 06:05:31 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:35:31 +0930 Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences In-Reply-To: <4AB99F6B.507@satx.rr.com> References: <476659.3646.qm@web59914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4AB99F6B.507@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909282305i5fdd7691m422882b0c7b42c1b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/23 Damien Broderick : > On 9/22/2009 8:29 PM, Post Futurist wrote: > >> Freud narrows the environment of it, but he says our destiny is created >> by the edible drama in the family that we're born into. > > This is true only among cannibals. I'll still be laughing at this for days, I'm sure. > Ask E. L. Wilson. His brother E. O. > probably disagrees. And here I was thinking "who is this E L Wilson, I wonder if he/she is related to E O Wilson?". -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 06:38:15 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:38:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: To go from a point A to a point B with a large mass chunk swiftly as possible, you have to accelerate. And you have the this: http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1126-6708/2009/04/015 A temperature is felt due to any acceleration. But it is the string theory required for the entropy to be increased for that reason. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eschatoon at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 07:37:26 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:37:26 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909290037j50737895x9ed64202273283d4@mail.gmail.com> A quite painful reminder of things one would prefer to ignore, especially on his birthday ;-) On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Emlyn wrote: > Just to change the mood a little :-) > http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in-my-lifetime/ > > -- > Emlyn -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 07:41:33 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:11:33 +0930 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909290037j50737895x9ed64202273283d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909290037j50737895x9ed64202273283d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909290041p4212ecbam3b6a9250b1e727cc@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/29 Giulio Prisco (2nd email) : > A quite painful reminder of things one would prefer to ignore, > especially on his birthday ;-) > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Emlyn wrote: >> Just to change the mood a little :-) >> http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in-my-lifetime/ >> >> -- >> Emlyn > -- > Giulio Prisco > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco > aka Eschatoon Magic > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon Happy Birthday Giulio! -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From eschatoon at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 07:47:43 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:47:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909290041p4212ecbam3b6a9250b1e727cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909290037j50737895x9ed64202273283d4@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909290041p4212ecbam3b6a9250b1e727cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909290047p3cf91586g13687c2d76eb424@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Emlyn! I am more than halfway thru the descending curve :-) Ah, those quick neurons of our youth! On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Emlyn wrote: > 2009/9/29 Giulio Prisco (2nd email) : >> A quite painful reminder of things one would prefer to ignore, >> especially on his birthday ;-) >> >> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Emlyn wrote: >>> Just to change the mood a little :-) >>> http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in-my-lifetime/ >>> >>> -- >>> Emlyn >> -- >> Giulio Prisco >> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco >> aka Eschatoon Magic >> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon > > Happy Birthday Giulio! > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related > http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting > http://emlynoregan.com - main site > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From nymphomation at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 12:59:19 2009 From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:59:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> <710b78fc0909281929n322d44a3rc81dc8d7e7866b2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7e1e56ce0909290559p4c397bb7vf26236cac2b8570d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/29 Emlyn : > 2009/9/29 spike : >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >>> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn >>> ... >>> >>> I agree with what (I think) Stefano is saying. If you've got >>> no way to legally detain these people, then let them go... >> >> Emlyn, what consequences could you imagine from doing that? ?What message >> would you be sending to the other aspiring terrorists? > > What message are you sending now? How does that compare? Surely the > whole sending-a-message idea has been exposed as a clusterf**k by now. > >>> ...precedent being set here is far worse for the US than the >>> danger posed by a handful of people... >> >> It isn't the handful of people that is a danger, it is the loud and clear >> message that the US will not defend itself from terror. > > You can defend yourself from terror by calming down. It's an emotion. > > This kind of detention and warfare and what not would likely be more > about defending yourself from hostile people intent on doing you harm. > > I think the world is largely clear on the idea that the US will defend > itself against such people. Just an idea, would it not be possible to construct small one or two seater aircraft, powered by jet engines? These could perhaps be capable of three or four times the top speed of large passenger aircraft. If they were equipped with guns or rocket powered devices, then they could be used to intercept and/or force down hijacked aircraft, minimising the damage caused by such attacks. I know it sounds like science fiction, but I envisage a day when developed nations will defend themselves against attack using fleets of high-speed monoplanes! Heavy splashings, Thee Nymphomation 'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner will be appointed to you free of charge by the court' From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 13:14:46 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:14:46 +0200 Subject: [ExI] barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <7130626E09CD4E61AE0F0E0D233172FB@spike> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280836w7289d913n9cf41b7fddcb790d@mail.gmail.com> <7130626E09CD4E61AE0F0E0D233172FB@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20909290614m1e25345asb36027aa63e584c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/29 spike : > What is so new is the transparency provided by the internet. ?We now have > eyes and ears that were never available to the masses before the mid 90s. > We have an additional ~20 IQ points in the form of massive quantitites of > externalized knowledge right at our fingertips, in a searchable controllable > format. ?Thirty years ago no one would worry about a couple hundred > ill-defined non-state acting hostiles being held prisoner somewhere far > away. ?Hell we wouldn't even know about it, much less would we be going nuts > pondering it daily. > The web changes everything. Now we focus laser beam attention on the fact > that our own government violates the constitution, regardless of what it > does. Yes, I agree. Even though I would not underestimate the TV etc etc. And this is why and how we are discussing the subject. Which only makes it more remarkably paradoxical that your government, or for that matter the British Empire, may have been paradoxically doing it *less* when it was more likely to get away with it. :-) As Mirco says, governments have always had very traditional and time-honoured legal ways to deal with their enemies. The problem arises when today they do not want to recognise their enemies as combatants rather than "criminals", or to take the political responsibility of engaging *officially* in war operations, "military assistance to allies", "far-reaching law enforcement" and "international police operations" being more palatable for contemporary political correctness. Absurdly enough, this makes for the inapplicability of whatever war law may still exist - which does forbid for instance torture on war prisoners, whatever a given country may choose to do with its criminal defendants -, *and* for devastating consequences on the criminal and costitutional legal system of the country concerned. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 13:28:50 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:28:50 +0200 Subject: [ExI] QRE: barack W. obama In-Reply-To: <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> References: <200909241542.n8OFgu5q012091@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4ABFAAEA.7020008@libero.it> <580930c20909271305sc6d775ia64ff6ff6b3f724@mail.gmail.com> <4B75ECD8BCA94E63AE767331CD0A6B39@spike> <580930c20909271717m320b99bes5d3453efad03de41@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20909280401x369ca8e9x3e8b02baf014b2e1@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909281816q6d6c4404j80e474679a8c3308@mail.gmail.com> <563100E431F643F9810F3D8E8BD7EB28@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20909290628wd642274hd76c4597a44d7886@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/29 spike : > So now I suppose we can semi-legitimately hold as POWs, all known aQs and > Taliban, As it is usually the case in such circumstances, recognising the stattus of somebody as a POW gives you some rights (e.g., to detain him or her even though he may not be responsible of any crime), but also imposes some international duties and obligations on you which exist irrespective of what it may or may not be legal or constitutional to do in your country with regard to criminal defendants. In fact, I suspect that besides its obvious propaganda value, and a certain typically American confusion between law, "justice" and national interest, the insistence on the "criminal" angle has to do with the desire to keep "free hands" in dealing with them, as in having one's pie and eating it too. This, unfortunately for the US gov'ts, makes their life more complicate from another side, given that one cannot reasonably claim that, say, people in Guantanamo should have the worst of both worlds, meaning that they should be dealt with as any alleged serial killer in the US territory *and* not have the legal guarantees thereof. -- Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 15:12:13 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:12:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific Message-ID: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the [INSIDE] conference. This is a transdisciplinary event which addresses the sciences and arts of human-machine interfaces. My talk will cover a transhumanist perspective of human enhancement as aiming for radical extension of personal existence, and which includes issues of the Singularity. Of concern, and this was addressed on the IEET blog, why the Singularity appears to be male-centric. I simply cannot shed any light on this phenomenon. If anyone has psychological or theoretical pointers as to why this phonemic has happened, please let me know. (That it is technological and women are not technological;.mathematical oriented is simply not a good enough defense because it is not true.) There must be another reason. Misogyny? Does it trickle down from the top? Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking of terms, such as with "cyborg"? With cyborg, which we all know was Manfred Clyne's description of a man-machine adaptive, self-regulating system for the purposes of space exploration. Years later, Donna Haraway popularized the term cyborg to reflect a feminist theory. Now the term is deeply engrained in academic and public sector as being attached to a feminist worldview. I spoke to Clynes about this and he was quite certain that the feminist use of cyborg was wrong. Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it could a metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity in merging with AGI. Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life stage of some insects undergoing transformation; on the other hand it is well-known to women as a transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, wise organisms. "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same power and force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in now she lives and moves in the world, and this transformation affects all hose around her."... Usually this means that a woman (whose instincts are to nurture and protect offspring), now reaching outside the body to nurture and protect life. As with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her deeper into the rigor of scientific study. Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not almost stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender misappropriation now, which could lead to a strong gender appropriation. I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ... I'll get back to you all after I talk with him about it. Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: att3eb15.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 15:12:57 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:12:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909290037j50737895x9ed64202273283d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909290037j50737895x9ed64202273283d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Happy Birthday Giulio!!! Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco (2nd email) Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:37 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime A quite painful reminder of things one would prefer to ignore, especially on his birthday ;-) On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Emlyn wrote: > Just to change the mood a little :-) > http://point7.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/why-i-will-be-able-to-upload-in > -my-lifetime/ > > -- > Emlyn -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 15:57:03 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:57:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <4AC22E4F.9000200@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 10:12 AM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not > almost stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender > misappropriation now, which could lead to a strong gender appropriation. Interesting. Rather than the insect metamorphosis metaphor, I' be inclined to look at the way we currently construe/construct "machines" as a male preserve (despite a century and more of sewing machines, telephone operators, process work, etc), and look at the iconography of large gleaming "male" robots that effortlessly dominate humans. Attempts to subvert that, as in the Sarah Conner Chronicles, just create a sort of male-with-boobs killer machine. You might look at Harry Harlow's classic wire vs. cloth "mother" experiments with baby monkeys. The obvious irony is that the premise of most Singularity models is a transition *beyond* anything as biological as gender or sex. But given a culture in which male is the unmarked norm, that just means any super-AI (say) is automaticallly "he." And so on. (Although there are countervailing currents: the seductive female robot of METROPOLIS, the relationship between designer and AI in the COLOSSUS novels, which is father-child.) Damien Broderick From eschatoon at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 16:04:40 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:04:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> I don't think anything is gender specific -- we all know cigar-smoking, football-loving women and men who love flowers and stuffed animals. Rather, as they know well in advertising, for cultural reasons men and women relate best to different flavors of the same message. So it is a positive feedback loop: there are more men than women speaking of these things, and so of course the message is biased for a male audience. No big deal or fundamental problem, just something to correct. 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More > > I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the [INSIDE] conference.? This is a transdisciplinary event which addresses the sciences and arts of human-machine interfaces.? My talk will cover a transhumanist perspective of human enhancement as aiming for radical extension of personal existence, and which includes issues of the Singularity.? Of concern, and this was addressed on the IEET?blog, why the Singularity appears to be male-centric.? I simply cannot shed any light on this phenomenon.? If anyone has psychological or theoretical pointers as to why this phonemic has happened, please let me know.? (That it is technological and women are not technological;.mathematical oriented is simply not a good enough defense because it is not true.)? There must be another reason.? Misogyny?? Does it trickle down from the top? > > Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking of terms, such as with "cyborg"?? With cyborg, which we all know was Manfred Clyne's description of a man-machine adaptive, self-regulating system for the purposes of space exploration.? Years later, Donna Haraway popularized the term cyborg to reflect a feminist theory.? Now the term is deeply engrained in academic and public sector as being attached to a feminist worldview.? I spoke to Clynes about this and he was quite certain that the feminist use of cyborg was wrong. > > Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it could a metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity in merging with AGI.? Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life stage of some insects undergoing transformation; on the other hand it is well-known to women as a transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, wise organisms. > > "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same power and force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in now she lives and moves in the world, and this transformation affects all hose around her."...? Usually this means that a woman (whose instincts are to nurture and protect offspring), now reaching outside the body to nurture and protect life.? As with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her deeper into the rigor of scientific study. > > Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not almost stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender misappropriation now, which could lead to a strong gender appropriation. > > I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ...?I'll get back to you all after I talk with him about it. > > > ?Natasha Vita-More > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Tue Sep 29 17:05:01 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] fiction writer on biosciences In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909282305i5fdd7691m422882b0c7b42c1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <848867.55990.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> his gallery: E.L. Wilson ? And here I was thinking "who is this E L Wilson, I wonder if he/she is related to E O Wilson?". >Emlyn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 18:08:17 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:08:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> Come on. Give me a thought-provoking response. Not the same ole stuff that - men like tech/match; women don't. Quoting "Giulio Prisco (2nd email)" : > I don't think anything is gender specific -- we all know > cigar-smoking, football-loving women and men who love flowers and > stuffed animals. > > Rather, as they know well in advertising, for cultural reasons men and > women relate best to different flavors of the same message. So it is a > positive feedback loop: there are more men than women speaking of > these things, and so of course the message is biased for a male > audience. No big deal or fundamental problem, just something to > correct. > > 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More >> >> I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the >> [INSIDE] conference.? This is a transdisciplinary event which >> addresses the sciences and arts of human-machine interfaces.? My >> talk will cover a transhumanist perspective of human enhancement as >> aiming for radical extension of personal existence, and which >> includes issues of the Singularity.? Of concern, and this was >> addressed on the IEET?blog, why the Singularity appears to be >> male-centric.? I simply cannot shed any light on this phenomenon.? >> If anyone has psychological or theoretical pointers as to why this >> phonemic has happened, please let me know.? (That it is >> technological and women are not technological;.mathematical >> oriented is simply not a good enough defense because it is not >> true.)? There must be another reason.? Misogyny?? Does it trickle >> down from the top? >> >> Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking >> of terms, such as with "cyborg"?? With cyborg, which we all know >> was Manfred Clyne's description of a man-machine adaptive, >> self-regulating system for the purposes of space exploration.? >> Years later, Donna Haraway popularized the term cyborg to reflect a >> feminist theory.? Now the term is deeply engrained in academic and >> public sector as being attached to a feminist worldview.? I spoke >> to Clynes about this and he was quite certain that the feminist use >> of cyborg was wrong. >> >> Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it >> could a metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity >> in merging with AGI.? Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life >> stage of some insects undergoing transformation; on the other hand >> it is well-known to women as a transformation stage from being >> fertile, reproductive organism to transforming into non-physically >> reproductive BUT intellectually productive, wise organisms. >> >> "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same >> power and force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in >> now she lives and moves in the world, and this transformation >> affects all hose around her."...? Usually this means that a woman >> (whose instincts are to nurture and protect offspring), now >> reaching outside the body to nurture and protect life.? As with >> Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her deeper into >> the rigor of scientific study. >> >> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not >> almost stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender >> misappropriation now, which could lead to a strong gender >> appropriation. >> >> I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ...?I'll get >> back to you all after I talk with him about it. >> >> >> ?Natasha Vita-More >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > > -- > Giulio Prisco > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco > aka Eschatoon Magic > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon > _______________________________________________ > ieet mailing list > ieet at ieet.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/ieet > From eschatoon at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 18:24:08 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:24:08 +0200 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> Not what I am saying -- rather, for the same product you need to fine-tune the message to sell to men or to women. Come on, any advertising professional knows that. God knows how much money they spend in gender-related studies, surveys and tests. On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:08 PM, wrote: > Come on. ?Give me a thought-provoking response. ?Not the same ole stuff that > - men like tech/match; women don't. > > > Quoting "Giulio Prisco (2nd email)" : > >> I don't think anything is gender specific -- we all know >> cigar-smoking, football-loving women and men who love flowers and >> stuffed animals. >> >> Rather, as they know well in advertising, for cultural reasons men and >> women relate best to different flavors of the same message. So it is a >> positive feedback loop: there are more men than women speaking of >> these things, and so of course the message is biased for a male >> audience. No big deal or fundamental problem, just something to >> correct. >> >> 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More >>> >>> I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the >>> ?[INSIDE] conference.? This is a transdisciplinary event which ?addresses >>> the sciences and arts of human-machine interfaces.? My ?talk will cover a >>> transhumanist perspective of human enhancement as ?aiming for radical >>> extension of personal existence, and which ?includes issues of the >>> Singularity.? Of concern, and this was ?addressed on the IEET?blog, why the >>> Singularity appears to be ?male-centric.? I simply cannot shed any light on >>> this phenomenon.? ?If anyone has psychological or theoretical pointers as to >>> why this ?phonemic has happened, please let me know.? (That it is >>> ?technological and women are not technological;.mathematical ?oriented is >>> simply not a good enough defense because it is not ?true.)? There must be >>> another reason.? Misogyny?? Does it trickle ?down from the top? >>> >>> Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking ?of >>> terms, such as with "cyborg"?? With cyborg, which we all know ?was Manfred >>> Clyne's description of a man-machine adaptive, ?self-regulating system for >>> the purposes of space exploration.? ?Years later, Donna Haraway popularized >>> the term cyborg to reflect a ?feminist theory.? Now the term is deeply >>> engrained in academic and ?public sector as being attached to a feminist >>> worldview.? I spoke ?to Clynes about this and he was quite certain that the >>> feminist use ?of cyborg was wrong. >>> >>> Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it ?could >>> a metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity ?in merging >>> with AGI.? Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life ?stage of some >>> insects undergoing transformation; on the other hand ?it is well-known to >>> women as a transformation stage from being ?fertile, reproductive organism >>> to transforming into non-physically ?reproductive BUT intellectually >>> productive, wise organisms. >>> >>> "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same ?power >>> and force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in ?now she lives >>> and moves in the world, and this transformation ?affects all hose around >>> her."...? Usually this means that a woman ?(whose instincts are to nurture >>> and protect offspring), now ?reaching outside the body to nurture and >>> protect life.? As with ?Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought >>> her deeper into ?the rigor of scientific study. >>> >>> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not >>> ?almost stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender >>> ?misappropriation now, which could lead to a strong gender ?appropriation. >>> >>> I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ...?I'll get ?back >>> to you all after I talk with him about it. >>> >>> >>> ?Natasha Vita-More >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Giulio Prisco >> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco >> aka Eschatoon Magic >> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon >> _______________________________________________ >> ieet mailing list >> ieet at ieet.org >> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/ieet >> > > > > -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 18:37:57 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:37:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> Well, yes of course - I grew up in the New York advertizing environment. As valuable as this information may be, it is just pervasive and persuasive frosting. The issue on the table is that the real (if there is such a thing) Singularity is not male-centric. Since this is the truth (if there is such a thing), why are its central advocates oblivious to this? It seems that it would be more beneficial to be non-gender specific in its promotion. Natasha Quoting "Giulio Prisco (2nd email)" : > Not what I am saying -- rather, for the same product you need to > fine-tune the message to sell to men or to women. Come on, any > advertising professional knows that. God knows how much money they > spend in gender-related studies, surveys and tests. > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:08 PM, wrote: >> Come on. ?Give me a thought-provoking response. ?Not the same ole stuff that >> - men like tech/match; women don't. >> >> >> Quoting "Giulio Prisco (2nd email)" : >> >>> I don't think anything is gender specific -- we all know >>> cigar-smoking, football-loving women and men who love flowers and >>> stuffed animals. >>> >>> Rather, as they know well in advertising, for cultural reasons men and >>> women relate best to different flavors of the same message. So it is a >>> positive feedback loop: there are more men than women speaking of >>> these things, and so of course the message is biased for a male >>> audience. No big deal or fundamental problem, just something to >>> correct. >>> >>> 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More >>>> >>>> I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the >>>> ?[INSIDE] conference.? This is a transdisciplinary event which ?addresses >>>> the sciences and arts of human-machine interfaces.? My ?talk will cover a >>>> transhumanist perspective of human enhancement as ?aiming for radical >>>> extension of personal existence, and which ?includes issues of the >>>> Singularity.? Of concern, and this was ?addressed on the >>>> IEET?blog, why the >>>> Singularity appears to be ?male-centric.? I simply cannot shed >>>> any light on >>>> this phenomenon.? ?If anyone has psychological or theoretical >>>> pointers as to >>>> why this ?phonemic has happened, please let me know.? (That it is >>>> ?technological and women are not technological;.mathematical ?oriented is >>>> simply not a good enough defense because it is not ?true.)? There must be >>>> another reason.? Misogyny?? Does it trickle ?down from the top? >>>> >>>> Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking ?of >>>> terms, such as with "cyborg"?? With cyborg, which we all know ?was Manfred >>>> Clyne's description of a man-machine adaptive, ?self-regulating system for >>>> the purposes of space exploration.? ?Years later, Donna Haraway >>>> popularized >>>> the term cyborg to reflect a ?feminist theory.? Now the term is deeply >>>> engrained in academic and ?public sector as being attached to a feminist >>>> worldview.? I spoke ?to Clynes about this and he was quite >>>> certain that the >>>> feminist use ?of cyborg was wrong. >>>> >>>> Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it ?could >>>> a metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity ?in merging >>>> with AGI.? Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life ?stage of some >>>> insects undergoing transformation; on the other hand ?it is well-known to >>>> women as a transformation stage from being ?fertile, reproductive organism >>>> to transforming into non-physically ?reproductive BUT intellectually >>>> productive, wise organisms. >>>> >>>> "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same ?power >>>> and force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in >>>> ?now she lives >>>> and moves in the world, and this transformation ?affects all hose around >>>> her."...? Usually this means that a woman ?(whose instincts are to nurture >>>> and protect offspring), now ?reaching outside the body to nurture and >>>> protect life.? As with ?Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose >>>> chrysalis brought >>>> her deeper into ?the rigor of scientific study. >>>> >>>> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not >>>> ?almost stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender >>>> ?misappropriation now, which could lead to a strong gender ?appropriation. >>>> >>>> I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ...?I'll get ?back >>>> to you all after I talk with him about it. >>>> >>>> >>>> ?Natasha Vita-More >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Giulio Prisco >>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco >>> aka Eschatoon Magic >>> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ieet mailing list >>> ieet at ieet.org >>> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/ieet >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Giulio Prisco > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco > aka Eschatoon Magic > http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon > From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 19:02:16 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:02:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 1:37 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > the real (if there is such a thing) Singularity is not male-centric. > Since this is the truth (if there is such a thing), why are its central > advocates oblivious to this? It seems that it would be more beneficial > to be non-gender specific in its promotion. Are you asking why more women are not currently discussing the singularity? Or why more women are not used as talking-heads in TV/webvid shows on the topic? Or why nobody has thought of inviting Jolie and Madonna (but not together) to the next Summit? Since "the Singularity" is an abstract concept about rates of change in technology, I don't see how it can be *personalized* as either male or female, except in the figuration of Terminators or Gaiamind or some other comic-strip reductionism. Consider science fiction a generation or two ago, when women were usually seen as excluded from the readership, the creative input, and the subject matter (except as "sexy" or domestic decoration); this was never really true, but it slowly changed to the point when now very many women write sf and a fair proportion of the readers are women. What caused this change? In part, education, feminism and the social readjustment of women's roles (made possible in part by oral contraceptives). With such changes now prevalent, despite the dickheads trying to push back the tide, it might be that the singularity idea will spread among women sooner or later if it becomes fashionable. When Malcolm Gladwell writes a book about it, and is hailed as a genius for "inventing" this great new idea (as Ray Kurzweil has already been, on a smaller scale), it'll be in the New Yorker and work its way down. Maybe. Damien Broderick From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 19:45:12 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:45:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Damien Broderick : > On 9/29/2009 1:37 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > >> the real (if there is such a thing) Singularity is not male-centric. >> Since this is the truth (if there is such a thing), why are its central >> advocates oblivious to this? It seems that it would be more beneficial >> to be non-gender specific in its promotion. > > Are you asking why more women are not currently discussing the > singularity? [delete] I am not asking why more women are not discussing the Singularity. (Why is it that is women are mentioned, there has to be a giant leap to sex symbols?) > Since "the Singularity" is an abstract concept about rates of change in > technology, I don't see how it can be *personalized* as either male or > female, except in the figuration of Terminators or Gaiamind or some > other comic-strip reductionism. Yes, I agree. And this is my point - the current climate of the Singularity appears to propose a male dictate of our future and it cannot be gender specific. > Consider science fiction a generation or two ago, when women were > usually seen as excluded from the readership, the creative input, and > the subject matter (except as "sexy" or domestic decoration); this was > never really true, but it slowly changed to the point when now very > many women write sf and a fair proportion of the readers are women. > What caused this change? In part, education, feminism and the social > readjustment of women's roles (made possible in part by oral > contraceptives). With such changes now prevalent, despite the dickheads > trying to push back the tide, it might be that the singularity idea > will spread among women sooner or later if it becomes fashionable. I thought I alluded to this by stating Haraway's use of "cyborg" and making it a feminist term (which now has a tremendous following and numerous academic courses) and which forgets Manfred Clyne's vision. > When > Malcolm Gladwell writes a book about it, and is hailed as a genius for > "inventing" this great new idea (as Ray Kurzweil has already been, on a > smaller scale), it'll be in the New Yorker and work its way down. Maybe. It is a darn shame that you are not recognized for your seminal works. But maybe a woman will come along and take the Singularity and make it about humanity's metamorphosis. From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 20:46:57 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:46:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 2:45 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > > I am not asking why more women are not discussing the Singularity. (Why > is it that is women are mentioned, there has to be a giant leap to sex > symbols?) What? You were the one talking about popularization and "promotion" (although it's true you also wrote "non-gender specific in its promotion"). I just asked if that was one aspect of what you saw missing. (I mentioned Jolie and Madonna because as well as being on every cover they are notable for their much-publicized adoption of causes [pun intended].) >> When >> Malcolm Gladwell writes a book about it, and is hailed as a genius for >> "inventing" this great new idea (as Ray Kurzweil has already been, on a >> smaller scale), it'll be in the New Yorker and work its way down. Maybe. > It is a darn shame that you are not recognized for your seminal works. It's got nothing to do with me; it was Vernor's idea, 25 years ago. > But maybe a woman will come along and take the Singularity and make it > about humanity's metamorphosis. I still don't see why you think it's not already that. Can you give some examples of phallic singularitarianism? What currently is "gender specific in its promotion"? Just the fact that Eliezer and Ray are boys? But you, Amara and Sarah aren't. You must be saying something deeper than that. Damien Broderick From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 21:03:43 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:03:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> > You must be saying something > deeper than that. Far deeper, yes. I think my original post alludes to this. Natasha From sparge at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 21:21:55 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:21:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More > > Because the Singularity is so male-dominated... I haven't noticed that. Can you explain what you mean or cite some examples? -Dave From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 21:26:28 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:26:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4AC27B84.30507@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 4:03 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: >> You must be saying something >> deeper than that. > > Far deeper, yes. I think my original post alludes to this. I didn't see there an answer to: Can you give some examples of phallic singularitarianism? What currently is "gender specific in its promotion"? I do see, and agree with, your comment that "cyborg" has been appropriated by feminist and other poststructuralist theorists. What's the equivalent you have in mind? Damien Broderick From jameschoate at austin.rr.com Tue Sep 29 21:37:49 2009 From: jameschoate at austin.rr.com (jameschoate at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:37:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> Men and women are not the same, obviously. The belief that they should represent in anything equally, other than civil representation is just silly if not ignorant. Women do not represent in these sorts of things because their fundamental psychological architecture is not based on confrontational discovery. It's not that women can't, they just in general don't want to. Totally different head. This is probably the most socially/self-destructive meme that has come out of the women's rights efforts. ---- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the [INSIDE] > conference. This is a transdisciplinary event which addresses the sciences > and arts of human-machine interfaces. My talk will cover a transhumanist > perspective of human enhancement as aiming for radical extension of personal > existence, and which includes issues of the Singularity. Of concern, and > this was addressed on the IEET blog, why the Singularity appears to be > male-centric. I simply cannot shed any light on this phenomenon. If anyone > has psychological or theoretical pointers as to why this phonemic has > happened, please let me know. (That it is technological and women are not > technological;.mathematical oriented is simply not a good enough defense > because it is not true.) There must be another reason. Misogyny? Does it > trickle down from the top? > > Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking of terms, > such as with "cyborg"? With cyborg, which we all know was Manfred Clyne's > description of a man-machine adaptive, self-regulating system for the > purposes of space exploration. Years later, Donna Haraway popularized the > term cyborg to reflect a feminist theory. Now the term is deeply engrained > in academic and public sector as being attached to a feminist worldview. I > spoke to Clynes about this and he was quite certain that the feminist use of > cyborg was wrong. > > Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it could a > metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity in merging with > AGI. Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life stage of some insects > undergoing transformation; on the other hand it is well-known to women as a > transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to > transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, > wise organisms. > > "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same power and > force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in now she lives and > moves in the world, and this transformation affects all hose around her."... > Usually this means that a woman (whose instincts are to nurture and protect > offspring), now reaching outside the body to nurture and protect life. As > with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her deeper into the > rigor of scientific study. > > Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not almost > stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender misappropriation > now, which could lead to a strong gender appropriation. > > I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ... I'll get back to > you all after I talk with him about it. > > > Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More > > -- -- -- -- -- Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus James Choate jameschoate at austin.rr.com james.choate at twcable.com 512-657-1279 www.ssz.com http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center Adapt, Adopt, Improvise -- -- -- -- From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 21:38:21 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:38:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Why I will be able to upload in my lifetime In-Reply-To: References: <710b78fc0909282119g13133cf3i3dc027ec20f3ccbc@mail.gmail.com> <1fa8c3b90909290037j50737895x9ed64202273283d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670909291438r572697f3vb36f7dd670b18917@mail.gmail.com> Giulio, As the ancient Egyptians would have said on a friend's birthday, "may you live to be a thousand years old!" John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 21:45:32 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:45:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <20090929174532.kb95j2nb8k8okoc0@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Dave Sill : > 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More >> >> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated... > > I haven't noticed that. Can you explain what you mean or cite some examples? Dave, have you ever been to a Singularity event? Have you ever posted on the Singularity email list? Have you attended the Singularity Institute's Summits? Have you read references and bibliographies on papers, articles and books concerning the Singularity? Certainly, I do not need to gather this material for you. It is readily available. This issue is not male vs. female. It is an topical issue. One could say "Where is the Zen of the Singularity?" That might bring it home to some who don't grok the chrysalis metaphor. But, nonetheless, it is an important metaphor. It seems that the Singularity is "driven" nowadays. I remember talking to Vernor about if we could steer or drive the Singularity and he said it might not be possible. Nevertheless, I realize that the driving force behind the Singularity is male-directed. I am not saying this is good or bad. I am saying that it MIGHT be wise to rethink it. Natasha From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 22:00:49 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:00:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC27B84.30507@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27B84.30507@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090929180049.lxte1dhe6g4gc4w0@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Damien Broderick : > On 9/29/2009 4:03 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > >>> You must be saying something >>> deeper than that. >> >> Far deeper, yes. I think my original post alludes to this. > > I didn't see there an answer to: > > Can you give some examples of phallic singularitarianism? What > currently is "gender specific in its promotion"? Visually, the camera angle of men - mostely from the bottom up to enlarge the form/figure. I think that both the Singularity Institute and University are too focused on fast-track futurism rather than social issues as well as human, transhuman, posthuman issues. Not TED enough, yet not scholary enough either. > I do see, and agree with, your comment that "cyborg" has been > appropriated by feminist and other poststructuralist theorists. What's > the equivalent you have in mind? The equivalent I have in mind is the chrysalis that I mentioned. I never favored Haraway's interpretation of cyborg (however politically incorrect it is to say this, especially in my discipline), and I have longed for its meaning as a self-regulatory system for existing in non-earth environments. But because it was so male-oriented (what is often referred to as white male-centric), Haraway's appropriation of cyborg was a refreshing alternative for many in theory, social sciences, liberal arts, rhetoric, gay and lesbian studies, etc. It seems plausible that because the current Singularity organizations do not approach the Singularity through a diverse spectra of intellectuals and visionaries, it too could find itself confiscated by feminists, or whomever, and reworked to fit its social needs. Natasha From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 22:04:29 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:04:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> References: <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> Message-ID: <20090929180429.ac2j7s612cosk0ww@webmail.natasha.cc> Somebody, please wake me up from this nightmare scenario below! Quoting jameschoate at austin.rr.com: > Men and women are not the same, obviously. The belief that they > should represent in anything equally, other than civil > representation is just silly if not ignorant. > > Women do not represent in these sorts of things because their > fundamental psychological architecture is not based on > confrontational discovery. It's not that women can't, they just in > general don't want to. Totally different head. This is probably the > most socially/self-destructive meme that has come out of the women's > rights efforts. > > ---- Natasha Vita-More wrote: >> I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the [INSIDE] >> conference. This is a transdisciplinary event which addresses the sciences >> and arts of human-machine interfaces. My talk will cover a transhumanist >> perspective of human enhancement as aiming for radical extension of personal >> existence, and which includes issues of the Singularity. Of concern, and >> this was addressed on the IEET blog, why the Singularity appears to be >> male-centric. I simply cannot shed any light on this phenomenon. If anyone >> has psychological or theoretical pointers as to why this phonemic has >> happened, please let me know. (That it is technological and women are not >> technological;.mathematical oriented is simply not a good enough defense >> because it is not true.) There must be another reason. Misogyny? Does it >> trickle down from the top? >> >> Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking of terms, >> such as with "cyborg"? With cyborg, which we all know was Manfred Clyne's >> description of a man-machine adaptive, self-regulating system for the >> purposes of space exploration. Years later, Donna Haraway popularized the >> term cyborg to reflect a feminist theory. Now the term is deeply engrained >> in academic and public sector as being attached to a feminist worldview. I >> spoke to Clynes about this and he was quite certain that the feminist use of >> cyborg was wrong. >> >> Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it could a >> metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity in merging with >> AGI. Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life stage of some insects >> undergoing transformation; on the other hand it is well-known to women as a >> transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to >> transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, >> wise organisms. >> >> "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same power and >> force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in now she lives and >> moves in the world, and this transformation affects all hose around her."... >> Usually this means that a woman (whose instincts are to nurture and protect >> offspring), now reaching outside the body to nurture and protect life. As >> with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her deeper into the >> rigor of scientific study. >> >> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not almost >> stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender misappropriation >> now, which could lead to a strong gender appropriation. >> >> I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ... I'll get back to >> you all after I talk with him about it. >> >> >> Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More >> >> > > -- > -- -- -- -- > Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus > > James Choate > jameschoate at austin.rr.com > james.choate at twcable.com > 512-657-1279 > www.ssz.com > http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu > http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center > > Adapt, Adopt, Improvise > -- -- -- -- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 22:12:08 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:12:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> Message-ID: <2d6187670909291512m59031ed0p7e4580d1c73eb804@mail.gmail.com> Is the concern here that women will ultimately be left *out* of The Singularity, when it finally gets here, in whatever form it takes? Will all the men upload into godlike cyber-beings to explore and colonize the universe, while the women are left home on Earth to tend "the homefires?" Lol I tend to at least partially agree with James Choate, in that men and women *tend* to differ in proclivities and abilities that relate to math and science and also in regards to the raw ambition to relentlessly fight their way up a hierarchical professional ladder. I realize there are many brilliant women in science and engineering, but they are greatly outnumbered by males and I think this is more biological than merely environmental and social conditioning. And of course there are extremely talented, ambitious and driven women in corporate America, the military, etc., but many choose to opt out for the biological imperatives of reproduction and family life, and so they often end up getting surpassed by males. The irony as previously stated by other posters, is that The Singularity may wipe away such differences. As for misogyny keeping women out of The Singularity movement, I don't buy that for a minute. In fact, I see The Singularity University as a key factor in getting many more women (from a broad range of professional disciplines) involved in this crucial matter. I also envision more and more females taking part as the U.S. government (and of course foreign governments), realizes that The Singularity is of vital national security importance and must be a topic of longterm study and dialogue. I view you, Natasha, and also P.J. Manney and Shannon Vyff, as just a few of a growing group of women who are prominent transhumanists and very active in discussing The Singularity. John Grigg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 22:33:12 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:33:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <2d6187670909291512m59031ed0p7e4580d1c73eb804@mail.gmail.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> <2d6187670909291512m59031ed0p7e4580d1c73eb804@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090929183312.688coaesckk0wk0s@webmail.natasha.cc> The issue of being left out of the Singularity never crossed my mind. I disagree from the bottom of my left boob that the proclivities that are so often espoused as being superior to other talents and characteristics is hog-wash. I am sticking with the chrysalis metaphor in that the Singularity will bring about a new sense of things - a new consciousness. Natasha Quoting John Grigg : > Is the concern here that women will ultimately be left *out* of The > Singularity, when it finally gets here, in whatever form it takes? Will all > the men upload into godlike cyber-beings to explore and colonize the > universe, while the women are left home on Earth to tend "the homefires?" > Lol > > I tend to at least partially agree with James Choate, in that men and > women *tend* to differ in proclivities and abilities that relate to math and > science and also in regards to the raw ambition to relentlessly fight their > way up a hierarchical professional ladder. > > I realize there are many brilliant women in science and engineering, but > they are greatly outnumbered by males and I think this is more biological > than merely environmental and social conditioning. And of course there > are extremely talented, ambitious and driven women in corporate America, the > military, etc., but many choose to opt out for the biological imperatives of > reproduction and family life, and so they often end up getting surpassed by > males. The irony as previously stated by other posters, is that The > Singularity may wipe away such differences. > > As for misogyny keeping women out of The Singularity movement, I don't buy > that for a minute. In fact, I see The Singularity University as a key > factor in getting many more women (from a broad range of professional > disciplines) involved in this crucial matter. I also envision more and more > females taking part as the U.S. government (and of course foreign > governments), realizes that The Singularity is of vital national > security importance and must be a topic of longterm study and dialogue. > > I view you, Natasha, and also P.J. Manney and Shannon Vyff, as just a few of > a growing group of women who are prominent transhumanists and very active in > discussing The Singularity. > > John Grigg > From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 22:46:24 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:46:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929180049.lxte1dhe6g4gc4w0@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27B84.30507@satx.rr.com> <20090929180049.lxte1dhe6g4gc4w0@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4AC28E40.6000706@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 5:00 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: >> Can you give some examples of phallic singularitarianism? What >> currently is "gender specific in its promotion"? > > Visually, the camera angle of men - mostely from the bottom up to > enlarge the form/figure. I think that both the Singularity Institute and > University are too focused on fast-track futurism rather than social > issues as well as human, transhuman, posthuman issues. Seems we're going in circles here. I asked if you meant there were too few women involved in promoting the idea, and you came back with "I am not asking why more women are not discussing the Singularity. (Why is it that is women are mentioned, there has to be a giant leap to sex symbols?)". >> I do see, and agree with, your comment that "cyborg" has been >> appropriated by feminist and other poststructuralist theorists. What's >> the equivalent you have in mind? > The equivalent I have in mind is the chrysalis that I mentioned. I must have been unclear, again. I was asking what the equivalent is of males having appropriated the inherently sex-neutral idea of a technological singularity. Is it just the "camera angle of men" and other instances of men usually being the speakers? What does it mean to say that singularitarians are avoiding "social issues"? The chrysalis figuration is intriguing (it reminds me of the feminist "wise crone": as you put it, "it is well-known to women as a transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, wise organisms") but it seems to imply a teleological pathway--like menopause--from where we are to a kind of predetermined transcendence (pupas don't *decide* to become butterflies, nor can they choose not to be). Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 29 23:14:44 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:14:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929183312.688coaesckk0wk0s@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> <2d6187670909291512m59031ed0p7e4580d1c73eb804@mail.gmail.com> <20090929183312.688coaesckk0wk0s@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4AC294E4.7060101@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 5:33 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > I disagree from the bottom of my left boob that the proclivities that > are so often espoused as being superior to other talents and > characteristics is hog-wash. I find that very hard to believe. You *disagree* that the alleged superiority of male proclivities is hog-wash? From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 29 23:42:21 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:42:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC294E4.7060101@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> <2d6187670909291512m59031ed0p7e4580d1c73eb804@mail.gmail.com> <20090929183312.688coaesckk0wk0s@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC294E4.7060101@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090929194221.h9yjnft55ww4c4g4@webmail.natasha.cc> That's the left one, which has been conditioned due to its close proximity to my body pump. The right one knows better, due to its motor connectivity to my brain. (Psst ... I'm right handed.) Quoting Damien Broderick : > On 9/29/2009 5:33 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > >> I disagree from the bottom of my left boob that the proclivities that >> are so often espoused as being superior to other talents and >> characteristics is hog-wash. > > I find that very hard to believe. You *disagree* that the alleged > superiority of male proclivities is hog-wash? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 23:45:40 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:45:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC28E40.6000706@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27B84.30507@satx.rr.com> <20090929180049.lxte1dhe6g4gc4w0@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC28E40.6000706@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <62c14240909291645h315b6bffgeb08082af9bd2eff@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > I must have been unclear, again. I was asking what the equivalent is of > males having appropriated the inherently sex-neutral idea of a technological > singularity. Is it just the "camera angle of men" and other instances of men > usually being the speakers? What does it mean to say that singularitarians > are avoiding "social issues"? The chrysalis figuration is intriguing (it > reminds me of the feminist "wise crone": as you put it, "it is well-known to > women as a transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to > transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, > wise organisms") but it seems to imply a teleological pathway--like > menopause--from where we are to a kind of predetermined transcendence (pupas > don't *decide* to become butterflies, nor can they choose not to be). I wonder what percentage of singularitians are MyersBriggs/KBTI "thinkers" vs "feelers". I got the impression Natasha was indicating a lack of empathy or social awakening in discussion of the Singularity. Zen of the Singularity sounds like an almost mystic path. I think it is difficult to express the idea of 'birth' without triggering the characteristics we observe from biological imperatives - but I think the chrysalis notion is fairly succinct. What Damien wrote made me think of Niven's Ringworld Pak Protectors as a post-human state of enlightened goal-centric shepherd or steward of humanity. Rather than drug-induced, it's technological enhancement that begins the transformation. I reread the original post in this thread. Now I am more confused about Natasha's original intent of the phrase "male centric." The English language is male-centric, have we attempted to isolate that distracting noise from observation? Is our cultural conceptualization of gender roles insufficient to apply to the Singularity? Every participant in the discussion has a bias forced on them by biology. Should the non-gendered transhumans be tasked with establishing the proper terminology to remove this bias? re: "...a more far-reaching notion of the singularity" Yes, it has become too effable to instill the requisite awe and wonder to the "The Singularity." From asa at nada.kth.se Tue Sep 29 23:48:51 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:48:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929174532.kb95j2nb8k8okoc0@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929174532.kb95j2nb8k8okoc0@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > It seems that the Singularity is "driven" > nowadays. I remember talking to Vernor about if we could steer or > drive the Singularity and he said it might not be possible. Hmm, is the singularity something that is "just happening", something that is driven by a lot of human desires or something some group needs to "push" for? I can certainly see how some people might filter this question through gender stereotypes, like saying that people wanting to influence things to get a particular kind of singularity are expressing a male need for control. But that misses the point of the discussion, seeing it as a metaphor for something else rather than a discussion about what kind of future we want or may end up in. That discussion can of course be biased for the usual cultural and sociological reasons. > Nevertheless, I realize that the driving force behind the Singularity > is male-directed. I am not saying this is good or bad. I am saying > that it MIGHT be wise to rethink it. I wonder *which* singularity idea this refers to. Is it the concept of accelerating progress, the concept that superintelligence may be around the corner to speed things up a lot, the concept that we may be approaching a horizon of predictability, the concept of a big historical rupture or that we may be at/approaching a historically singular point/period (e.g. Robin Hanson's "dreamtime", http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/this-is-the-dream-time.html )? Are all these concepts male-directed? Personally I think we should care less about the capital S Singularity and look more at what we can do to shape the future and consider where we should want to be going. Understanding potential events like the singularity might be helpful, but it is not the end all of future foresight. (We'll see if I change my mind at the Singularity Summit :-) -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asyluman at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 22:51:23 2009 From: asyluman at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:51:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC28E40.6000706@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27B84.30507@satx.rr.com> <20090929180049.lxte1dhe6g4gc4w0@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC28E40.6000706@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: The probable truth, I would think, is that whatever forces and life events compel one to be interested in the Singularity were experiences primarily dominated by males when they were growing up in the fifties through the seventies--sci-fi, comic books, and the like. Futurist television programs (e.g. The Jetsons) were set in the male-centric mode of the time and thus set a precedent. When you try too hard to find a modern pattern, things fall apart. The cause is as old as Kurzweil himself. On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > On 9/29/2009 5:00 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > >> Can you give some examples of phallic singularitarianism? What >>> currently is "gender specific in its promotion"? >>> >> >> Visually, the camera angle of men - mostely from the bottom up to >> enlarge the form/figure. I think that both the Singularity Institute and >> University are too focused on fast-track futurism rather than social >> issues as well as human, transhuman, posthuman issues. >> > > Seems we're going in circles here. I asked if you meant there were too few > women involved in promoting the idea, and you came back with "I am not > asking why more women are not discussing the Singularity. (Why is it that > is women are mentioned, there has to be a giant leap to sex symbols?)". > > I do see, and agree with, your comment that "cyborg" has been >>> appropriated by feminist and other poststructuralist theorists. What's >>> the equivalent you have in mind? >>> >> > The equivalent I have in mind is the chrysalis that I mentioned. >> > > I must have been unclear, again. I was asking what the equivalent is of > males having appropriated the inherently sex-neutral idea of a technological > singularity. Is it just the "camera angle of men" and other instances of men > usually being the speakers? What does it mean to say that singularitarians > are avoiding "social issues"? The chrysalis figuration is intriguing (it > reminds me of the feminist "wise crone": as you put it, "it is well-known to > women as a transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to > transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, > wise organisms") but it seems to imply a teleological pathway--like > menopause--from where we are to a kind of predetermined transcendence (pupas > don't *decide* to become butterflies, nor can they choose not to be). > > Damien Broderick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Sep 30 00:04:11 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:04:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [ieet] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC28E40.6000706@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <1fa8c3b90909290904h92bc1dwbd9ee4e885c2760e@mail.gmail.com> <20090929140817.hlny73p4w0ss8g8c@webmail.natasha.cc> <1fa8c3b90909291124j517674ecpb6d478a37a45b3fe@mail.gmail.com> <20090929143757.c25flwikasgwsggc@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC259B8.9070808@satx.rr.com> <20090929154512.cfng6rklg0844oo8@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27241.1070806@satx.rr.com> <20090929170343.zaygailnqcc0c8sk@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC27B84.30507@satx.rr.com> <20090929180049.lxte1dhe6g4gc4w0@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC28E40.6000706@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090929200411.y7sh4suxgcksswos@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Damien Broderick : > >>> I do see, and agree with, your comment that "cyborg" has been >>> appropriated by feminist and other poststructuralist theorists. What's >>> the equivalent you have in mind? > >> The equivalent I have in mind is the chrysalis that I mentioned. > > I must have been unclear, again. I was asking what the equivalent is of > males having appropriated the inherently sex-neutral idea of a > technological singularity. Is it just the "camera angle of men" and > other instances of men usually being the speakers? > What does it mean to > say that singularitarians are avoiding "social issues"? I think that it has a similar situation as Alcor. Alcor's conferences tend to be repetitious and more about machinery than application and fun. Content of course ought to be about superintelligence because that is fundamental, but superintelligence is not only programming computers. If so, we would have a vast field of wearable technologies and HCI projects, not to mention simulations and virtuality. Surely, everyone discusses consequences and risks, but what how will this affect life and what steps to take; what about linguistics and symbols and reframing consciousness and perceptions; what are the visuals what stories, what new roles will be available; what relationship does education play, what about outreach on a global scale; what risk factors are worth exploring in developing new fields of study and inquiry, what is a non-singularity; is it transdisciplinary enough and if not, why; who can debate the key advocates on equal footing; how has it changed since Vinge; what are examples of earlier, historical singularities; what is the far vision of the Singularity; what does "future studies" really have to do with the Singularity (most futurists are short-term); how does it approach topics such as those present at Devos; ... designing the future is exciting, exploratory, engaging, and we need a WOW-factor - stimulation - experience. Experience design to alter perceptions. http://www.metanexus.net/conference2009/abstract/default.aspx?id=10858 > The chrysalis > figuration is intriguing (it reminds me of the feminist "wise crone": > as you put it, "it is well-known to women as a transformation stage > from being fertile, reproductive organism to transforming into > non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, wise > organisms") but it seems to imply a teleological pathway--like > menopause--from where we are to a kind of predetermined transcendence > (pupas don't *decide* to become butterflies, nor can they choose not to > be). Yes, it has telos, but not necessarily predetermined. Insects don't really have much choice or alternatives in determining their futures. We do. Natasha From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Sep 30 00:19:29 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:19:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929174532.kb95j2nb8k8okoc0@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20090929201929.3m43yvomgwow8g40@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Anders Sandberg : >> Nevertheless, I realize that the driving force behind the Singularity >> is male-directed. I am not saying this is good or bad. I am saying >> that it MIGHT be wise to rethink it. > > I wonder *which* singularity idea this refers to. Is it the concept of > accelerating progress, the concept that superintelligence may be around > the corner to speed things up a lot, the concept that we may be > approaching a horizon of predictability, the concept of a big historical > rupture or that we may be at/approaching a historically singular > point/period (e.g. Robin Hanson's "dreamtime", > http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/this-is-the-dream-time.html )? Are > all these concepts male-directed? It is not necessarily the content (all these ideas have been around for a long time induced exploration and curiosity), but the contextualizing the ideas that I am referring to. (How and by whom are these ideas being contextualized.) > Personally I think we should care less about the capital S Singularity and > look more at what we can do to shape the future and consider where we > should want to be going. Understanding potential events like the > singularity might be helpful, but it is not the end all of future > foresight. (We'll see if I change my mind at the Singularity Summit :-) Yes. I think this would be a meaningful project to produce with a *multidisciplinary mix* of experts in their respective fields. Natasha > > -- > Anders Sandberg, > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Tue Sep 29 23:58:42 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:58:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <47E3FDB591DF4DCC9972435DFEF17E78@spike> ___________________________ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha Vita-More Interesting post Natasha. Perhaps we should take a more proactive approach and always refer to all cyborgs in the feminine gender. We did that since forever with ships. I don't see why it couldn't apply to cyborgs. ... Usually this means that a woman (whose instincts are to nurture and protect offspring), now reaching outside the body to nurture and protect life. As with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her deeper into the rigor of scientific study...Natasha Vita-More OK but as a word of caution, do avoid hoots of derision from using Rachel Carson as an example of rigor in scientific study. A far better example would be Madame Curie. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 30 00:33:59 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:33:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929194221.h9yjnft55ww4c4g4@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> <2d6187670909291512m59031ed0p7e4580d1c73eb804@mail.gmail.com> <20090929183312.688coaesckk0wk0s@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC294E4.7060101@satx.rr.com> <20090929194221.h9yjnft55ww4c4g4@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4AC2A777.1080402@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 6:42 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > That's the left one, which has been conditioned due to its close > proximity to my body pump. The right one knows better, due to its motor > connectivity to my brain. (Psst ... I'm right handed.) Omg! A cross-wired boob! My mother told me about that sort of thing, but I always thought it was an urban legend. Damien Broderick From asa at nada.kth.se Wed Sep 30 00:36:01 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 02:36:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: <24e84b4e8264776c311f0ea9387f35fa.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> spike wrote: >> ...Hmm, so what is the most entropic kind of stable matter? > > Anders, I need to review my thermo books to be sure, but I think the > answer > to that question is molecular hydrogen in the form of a cloud in > interstellar space. It might depend on how you define stable matter.: the > answer might be atomic hydrogen. Hmm, I don't want to lose my precious matter, so I would like to keep it bottled as heat reservoirs. Hydrogen does indeed look like it got a great specific heat capacity - I was surprised how much better it was than water gram for gram. > I have been thinking about the original question of how to derive the > equation for inherent entropy production in moving mass. I have a thought > experiment for you. Cool! Yes, this seems to show that there is an energy loss. The spring, if it is compressed x meters beyond its resting length, will let go off the mass M payload when it passes the rest length (because the spring will start to deaccelerate, but not the payload). I get an estimate of kmx^2/2(m+M) J of kinetic energy left in the mass m spring at that point. Hmm, if we can let m approach zero then the loss goes to zero Presumably the moral is that the tube becomes perfectly reversible if the springs have zero mass, but you need some mass to store the compression energy in the first place. At the very least the spring will have kx^2/2c^2 mass-energy just from the compression, which would give a minimal loss of k^2 x^4/(2kx^2+4Mc^2) J. You can still get zero loss if x=0, but then the payload never arrives. The velocity of the payload will be sqrt(kx^2/(M+kx^2/2c^2)) - the bigger kx^2, the closer it will get to sqrt(2)c??? In the non-relativistic case I guess one could look at the heating of the spring. [Caveat: after midnight calculation, correctness may vary] Doing this with an electromagnetic launch would probably produce some similar loss: opening a superconductive box hiding a magnet to repel a magnetic payload would at the very least produce radiation from the accelerated magnet and likely also from the act of opening the box (I think the closed box is a bit like a coiled spring). Ditto for the electric field version. > In that particular thought experiment, you demonstrate that moving a mass > cannot be made perfectly reversible. The third law is called a law for a > reason. It isn't just a suggestion. It means business. "Nice heat engine you have here... look at those nice cycles. Lots of pressures and volumes changing. It would be *such* a shame if something bad happened to it, wouldn't it? Whaddya say, wouldn't you want to pay a bit of entropy insurance?" -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asa at nada.kth.se Wed Sep 30 00:37:40 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 02:37:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: Tomaz Kristan wrote: > A temperature is felt due to any acceleration. But it is the string theory > required for the entropy to be increased for that reason. Unruh radiation is a rather esoteric effect, but it is very fun. I can imagine all sorts of paradoxes involving heat engines located on accelerating spaceships exploiting the thermal difference between front and back. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Sep 30 00:39:51 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:39:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <47E3FDB591DF4DCC9972435DFEF17E78@spike> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <47E3FDB591DF4DCC9972435DFEF17E78@spike> Message-ID: <20090929203951.g66ncd0wu8ck0wsk@webmail.natasha.cc> Spike, you are absolutely right. (I was alerted about Dr. Carson by Max who complimented my post but raised a fully-arched and furrowed brow at the Rachel Carson example.) Even though I was referring to Carson's earlier work - before her real f__-up, Madam Curie is more appropriate. Thank you for correcting me. Natasha Quoting spike : > > ___________________________ > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha > Vita-More > > > Interesting post Natasha. Perhaps we should take a more proactive approach > and always refer to all cyborgs in the feminine gender. We did that since > forever with ships. I don't see why it couldn't apply to cyborgs. > > > ... Usually this means that a woman (whose instincts are to nurture and > protect offspring), now reaching outside the body to nurture and protect > life. As with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her > deeper into the rigor of scientific study...Natasha Vita-More > > > > OK but as a word of caution, do avoid hoots of derision from using Rachel > Carson as an example of rigor in scientific study. A far better example > would be Madame Curie. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 30 00:49:55 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:49:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC2A777.1080402@satx.rr.com> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929213749.9L1VS.693606.root@hrndva-web22-z01> <2d6187670909291512m59031ed0p7e4580d1c73eb804@mail.gmail.com> <20090929183312.688coaesckk0wk0s@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC294E4.7060101@satx.rr.com> <20090929194221.h9yjnft55ww4c4g4@webmail.natasha.cc> <4AC2A777.1080402@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4AC2AB33.6010500@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 7:33 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > A cross-wired boob! My mother told me about that sort of thing Oh, wait. It was *under-wired* boobs my mother warned me about. From asa at nada.kth.se Wed Sep 30 01:22:24 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 03:22:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: A bit more thinking (nightly walks home helps clear the mind): 1: What is happening in the tube model is that energy gets redistributed between the degrees of freedom: the first spring, the payload, the tube and the second spring. When the payload is fired the first spring will wobble, and force transmitted along the tube will make the second spring wobble. In theory one could time the speed so that all (?) energy gets collected into the second spring by having all wobbling coincide when the payload arrives, but this will not be generic for all payload speeds. 2: When the payload is fired, the whole tube will start to move. The center of mass stays the same, so as the payload traverses the tube the tube will also move a bit in the other direction. When the payload stops, the tube will have moved mL/(M+m) meters, where m is the payload mass and M is the tube mass and L its length. So we do get one of those unwanted displacements that would need correction if we want to keep the tube in exactly the same place. So we seem to have two effects here, a more direct entropy effect where the degrees of freedom start to move, and a displacement effect due to reaction. The first one is irreversible, the second one could be reversed if the first one was reversible - but it isn't. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From kanzure at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 01:22:27 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:22:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playing singularity bingo?) Message-ID: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com> Here are your tasks for the 2009 Singularity Summit. This is supposed to be purposefully challenging and is supposed to mix everyone up trying to meet new people-- and it's possible to finish it. Speakers are off-limits and aren't allowed to be the answer, sorry :-). ------------------------------------------------ # Someone who is either employed at MIT or is a student at MIT and in no way related to the Media Lab (sorry Ed). Finding someone from the Media Lab is certainly alright, but they are all over the place. ## Someone who runs a fab lab or is employed at the Center for Bits and Atoms is exempt from the Media Lab condition. # Researcher from EPFL (Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne). # NewSpace category: ## An employee of SpaceX, Masten Space, XCOR, Virgin Galactic, Scaled Composites, etc. ## Google Lunar X Prize (GLXP) team member-- someone on one of the GLXP teams. # Someone live blogging. # Someone one degree away from RMS, ESR, Bruce Perens, or another GNU, Free Software Foundation, Open Source Initiative--natti of your choice. ## A programmer who is actively working on free software (GPL, BSD, or other OSI-approved license), especially if it's related to any of the summit's broad topics. # A cosplayer not in disguise (in disguise is too easy). # A self-identified "do-it-yourself biohacker" who hasn't worked on an iGEM team. # Youngest kid present over (past) the age of unintelligible utterances. This might take some post-conference confirmation. ## Youngest person unaccompanied by a parent or guardian. # Anyone who works for or with Tim O'Reilly, Make Magazine, Instructables, Squid Labs, Ponoko, ShopBot, Spark Fun, Octopart, or is funded by ycombinator. # Singularity University student. # Published author of an open access peer-reviewed paper. Not a speaker. Bonus points for catching the reference. # Polyglot (>2). You can count Esperanto, Klingon, and other geeky conlangs if you have to. # Has their full genome sequenced. Subjects of the Personal Genome Project can count. # An artist with creative commons licensed art (or other freely available artwork)-- music, visual media, and other forms of art can count. # Electronic Frontier Foundation representative. # Someone who went to a DEFCON, CCC, debconf, BIL but not TED, Penguicon, WorldCon, or CodeCon conference. ------------------------------------------------ First person to shout "bingo!" gets free Suspended Animation service for one year. Well, not really. What you get is a really great time at the summit. I think we can even tally up the answers and be all geeky about the data in the end, too. Also, let's call this version 1, and anything else we come up with the second version, so that we can keep this all straight. Does anyone have anything to add? Can't be too easy ("I spot Ray!" is way too easy). Anything I left out? Remember, this is supposed to be fun :-). - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From kanzure at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 01:58:02 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:58:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playing singularity bingo?) In-Reply-To: <4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com> <4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Brent Allsop wrote: > Yea, this sounds fun! I'm glad to here you are attending. Actually, it's only tentative that I may be attending. I'm looking into whether or not the DIYbio-NYC group members would be willing to offer me a couch or a place on the floor to sleep. I work for free and don't suck, maybe someone else from the internet would be willing to put up with my antics for a few days? > Yea, this sounds fun! ?I'm glad to here you are attending. ?It'll be fun to > meet you face to face for the first time. Sorry, it's a common misconception that I have a face. > Who else is attending? ?And where are you staying? ?I'm staying in the > Marriott Cortyard on 92nd. I'll probably be staying in the subway station. Joking aside, it's still uncertain. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 02:12:31 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:12:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929174532.kb95j2nb8k8okoc0@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <20090929174532.kb95j2nb8k8okoc0@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:45 PM, wrote: > Quoting Dave Sill : > >> 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More >>> >>> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated... >> >> I haven't noticed that. Can you explain what you mean or cite some >> examples? > > Dave, have you ever been to a Singularity event? ?Have you ever posted on > the Singularity email list? ?Have you attended the Singularity Institute's > Summits? No, no, and no. >?Have you read references and bibliographies on papers, articles > and books concerning the Singularity? I've read articles and books about the singularity. I don't know exactly what the distinction is between singularity and Singularity. > Certainly, I do not need to gather this material for you. ?It is readily > available. OK, then... I guess this is just over my head. > This issue is not male vs. female. It is an topical issue. ?One could say > "Where is the Zen of the Singularity?" ?That might bring it home to some who > don't grok the chrysalis metaphor. ?But, nonetheless, it is an important > metaphor. It seems that the Singularity is "driven" nowadays. ?I remember > talking to Vernor about if we could steer or drive the Singularity and he > said it might not be possible. ?Nevertheless, I realize that the driving > force behind the Singularity is male-directed. ?I am not saying this is good > or bad. ?I am saying that it MIGHT be wise to rethink it. Yes, it's definitely out of my league because I don't see what attempting to drive the Singularity has to do with gender. Sorry for wasting your time. -Dave From krisnotaro at yahoo.com Wed Sep 30 02:24:02 2009 From: krisnotaro at yahoo.com (Kris Notaro) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific Message-ID: <26259.45946.qm@web51705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >Not what I am saying -- rather, for the same product you need to >fine-tune the message to sell to men or to women. Come on, any >advertising professional knows that. God knows how much money they >spend in gender-related studies, surveys and tests. ? > * H+ movements often started as informal (almost entirely > Internet-based) associations, and have grown largely through social > connections, rather than through formal recruitment processes. ? ? A few days ago i switched my facebook setting for gender to "female", and what a difference it made!? Instead of commercials for t-shirts, sex related ads, "see who is searching for you" messages, instead i now get commercials for nursing degrees, marriages, online games, and donations to philanthropic organizations.? ? Clearly gender identity and the notion of "masculine" and "faminie is a product of social conditioning - which hasnt gone away. A touch of difference in the brain's of males and females is a reality however, but one which shows that there?s less difference instead of more. There?s more then 20 or 30 ways the brain could be "feminized" or "masculineized" in that the brains between men and women are a little different dimorphicly on a macro scale. (see Rosario , 276-278) Mainly the agreed apon difference is in the INAH-3 region of the brain.? However there may be many reasons for the difference, mainly neural plasticity and environmental effects. see??? http://vrosario.bol.ucla.edu/CV/GLQ15.2_06_Rosario.pdf ? ok, so the white-male problem its probably not because of genetics or innate differences when it comes to taking up technology as a passion. ? If the H+ and Singularity community is in fact more associated with white men it is not only because of advertising, but many other environmental and societal reasons as well.? Patricia Hill Collins coined the term "the Matrix of Domination" which explains how power is distributed in our society (btw, we can already see how H+ and Singularity theories are playing into power in society by greedy people, but we also know that the result of H+ and the concept of a Singularity at least will probably decrease power of the greedy individual because of information accessibility enhanced brains, etc.)? ? "The Matrix of Domination is a sociological theory that explains issues of oppression that deal with race, class, and gender, though recognized as different social classifications, which are all interconnected. Other forms of classification, such as sexual orientation, religion, or age, apply to this theory as well. Patricia Hill Collins is credited with introducing the theory in her work entitled Black Feminist Thought: Knowledge, Consciousness, and the Politics of Empowerment. ? As the term implies, there are many different ways one might experience domination, facing many different challenges in which one obstacle, such as race, may overlap with other sociological features. Such things as race, age, and sex, may affect an individual in extremely different ways, in such simple cases as varying geography, socioeconomic status, or simply throughout time. Many feminist authors have contributed a great deal of research toward the understanding and application of domination models in many realms of society." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_of_Domination) http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/252.html ? So, if we go along with the notion of "the Matrix of Domination" we can conclude that it stems from race, class, gender, and a history of inequality.? The history of capitalism, slavery, western colonialism, sexism etc. is to blame hands down.? Remember it?s still only 2009, our society is still vastly effected by past and present oppression.? ? Think about the history of science fiction, technological inventions, women in science, and the history of sexism and social constructs of reality.? We need to figure out how to rid our society of such oppression?? can this happen before the singularity or widespread H+ transition?? If it doesn?t what will that mean?? How can we increase awareness of H+ issues among womyn?? Check out this amazing article from Nature about womyn in science:http://www.nature.com/embor/journal/v8/n11/full/7401109.html http://www.womeninscience.co.uk/index.php http://www.newscientist.com/special/women-in-science-2009-intro http://www.now.org/issues/economic/factsheet.html --- On Tue, 9/29/09, Dave Sill wrote: From: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific To: "ExI chat list" Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 10:12 PM On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:45 PM,? wrote: > Quoting Dave Sill : > >> 2009/9/29 Natasha Vita-More >>> >>> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated... >> >> I haven't noticed that. Can you explain what you mean or cite some >> examples? > > Dave, have you ever been to a Singularity event? ?Have you ever posted on > the Singularity email list? ?Have you attended the Singularity Institute's > Summits? No, no, and no. >?Have you read references and bibliographies on papers, articles > and books concerning the Singularity? I've read articles and books about the singularity. I don't know exactly what the distinction is between singularity and Singularity. > Certainly, I do not need to gather this material for you. ?It is readily > available. OK, then... I guess this is just over my head. > This issue is not male vs. female. It is an topical issue. ?One could say > "Where is the Zen of the Singularity?" ?That might bring it home to some who > don't grok the chrysalis metaphor. ?But, nonetheless, it is an important > metaphor. It seems that the Singularity is "driven" nowadays. ?I remember > talking to Vernor about if we could steer or drive the Singularity and he > said it might not be possible. ?Nevertheless, I realize that the driving > force behind the Singularity is male-directed. ?I am not saying this is good > or bad. ?I am saying that it MIGHT be wise to rethink it. Yes, it's definitely out of my league because I don't see what attempting to drive the Singularity has to do with gender. Sorry for wasting your time. -Dave _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --- On Tue, 9/29/09, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: From: natasha at natasha.cc Subject: Re: [ieet] [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific To: "ExI chat list" , jameschoate at austin.rr.com Cc: "'World Transhumanist Association Discussion List'" , "ExI chat list" , singularity at v2.listbox.com, "'Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies'" Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 6:04 PM Somebody, please wake me up from this nightmare scenario below! Quoting jameschoate at austin.rr.com: > Men and women are not the same, obviously. The belief that they? should represent in anything equally, other than civil? representation is just silly if not ignorant. > > Women do not represent in these sorts of things because their? fundamental psychological architecture is not based on? confrontational discovery. It's not that women can't, they just in? general don't want to. Totally different head. This is probably the? most socially/self-destructive meme that has come out of the women's? rights efforts. > > ---- Natasha Vita-More wrote: >> I will be in Lisbon the second weekend of October speaking at the [INSIDE] >> conference.? This is a transdisciplinary event which addresses the sciences >> and arts of human-machine interfaces.? My talk will cover a transhumanist >> perspective of human enhancement as aiming for radical extension of personal >> existence, and which includes issues of the Singularity.? Of concern, and >> this was addressed on the IEET blog, why the Singularity appears to be >> male-centric.? I simply cannot shed any light on this phenomenon.? If anyone >> has psychological or theoretical pointers as to why this phonemic has >> happened, please let me know.? (That it is technological and women are not >> technological;.mathematical oriented is simply not a good enough defense >> because it is not true.)? There must be another reason.? Misogyny?? Does it >> trickle down from the top? >> >> Do you all think that could be the beginnings of another hijacking of terms, >> such as with "cyborg"?? With cyborg, which we all know was Manfred Clyne's >> description of a man-machine adaptive, self-regulating system for the >> purposes of space exploration.? Years later, Donna Haraway popularized the >> term cyborg to reflect a feminist theory.? Now the term is deeply engrained >> in academic and public sector as being attached to a feminist worldview.? I >> spoke to Clynes about this and he was quite certain that the feminist use of >> cyborg was wrong. >> >> Because the Singularity has a type of inference of chrysalises, it could a >> metaphor for the human species reaching a type of maturity in merging with >> AGI.? Because chrysalis is, on one hand, the life stage of some insects >> undergoing transformation; on the other hand it is well-known to women as a >> transformation stage from being fertile, reproductive organism to >> transforming into non-physically reproductive BUT intellectually productive, >> wise organisms. >> >> "For some women, menopause can transform their lives with the same power and >> force as a volcano. A woman may be radically different in now she lives and >> moves in the world, and this transformation affects all hose around her."... >> Usually this means that a woman (whose instincts are to nurture and protect >> offspring), now reaching outside the body to nurture and protect life.? As >> with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis brought her deeper into the >> rigor of scientific study. >> >> Because the Singularity is so male-dominated, I wonder if it is not almost >> stirring up what might later be a larger issue of gender misappropriation >> now, which could lead to a strong gender appropriation. >> >> I think this is a darn good quesiton to pose to Vernor ... I'll get back to >> you all after I talk with him about it. >> >> >> Nlogo1.tif? Natasha Vita-More >> >> > > -- >? -- -- -- -- > Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus > > James Choate > jameschoate at austin.rr.com > james.choate at twcable.com > 512-657-1279 > www.ssz.com > http://www.twine.com/twine/1128gqhxn-dwr/solar-soyuz-zaibatsu > http://www.twine.com/twine/1178v3j0v-76w/confusion-research-center > > Adapt, Adopt, Improvise >? -- -- -- -- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ ieet mailing list ieet at ieet.org http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/ieet -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ ieet mailing list ieet at ieet.org http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/ieet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Wed Sep 30 03:05:09 2009 From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:05:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playing singularity bingo?) In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com> <4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC2CAE5.9090908@canonizer.com> Bryan, Yea, this sounds fun! I'm glad to here you are attending. It'll be fun to meet you face to face for the first time. Who else is attending? And where are you staying? I'm staying in the Marriott Cortyard on 92nd. And most important of all, when/where are we all going to do our traditional Sushi meal? Brent Allsop Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Brent Allsop wrote: > >> Yea, this sounds fun! I'm glad to here you are attending. >> > > Actually, it's only tentative that I may be attending. I'm looking > into whether or not the DIYbio-NYC group members would be willing to > offer me a couch or a place on the floor to sleep. I work for free and > don't suck, maybe someone else from the internet would be willing to > put up with my antics for a few days? > > >> Yea, this sounds fun! I'm glad to here you are attending. It'll be fun to >> meet you face to face for the first time. >> > > Sorry, it's a common misconception that I have a face. > > >> Who else is attending? And where are you staying? I'm staying in the >> Marriott Cortyard on 92nd. >> > > I'll probably be staying in the subway station. Joking aside, it's > still uncertain. > > - Bryan > http://heybryan.org/ > 1 512 203 0507 > > From spike66 at att.net Wed Sep 30 04:07:46 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:07:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <20090929203951.g66ncd0wu8ck0wsk@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1><47E3FDB591DF4DCC9972435DFEF17E78@spike> <20090929203951.g66ncd0wu8ck0wsk@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > natasha at natasha.cc > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:40 PM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: Re: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific > > > Spike, you are absolutely right. (I was alerted about Dr. > Carson by Max who complimented my post but raised a > fully-arched and furrowed brow at the Rachel Carson example.) > Even though I was referring to Carson's earlier work - > before her real f__-up, Madam Curie is more appropriate. > Thank you for correcting me. > > Natasha Natasha, I grew up hearing of Carson's Silent Spring, and how it said this and said that. In high school I found it in the library and actually read the thing, or most of it. I was appalled. Carson definitely had the passion, but it was so far from real science it struck me as little more than a political screed. I confess I choked a bit when I saw the reference. Inspired was I by Madame Curie's work. She and the old man, working every day in the lab, observing something new and cool, working, working, working, applying strict scientific rigor, always recording and observing, always striving for accuracy and truth. I get the feeling the Curies must have read Darwin, and said (as I did recently) I want to be like him when I grow up. Speaking of Darwin, I have some cool new ant observations to share here soon, but not now, for I have a series of experiments going on during this short season when the big migrations are happening. I learned a lot about observing ants from reading the stunning chapter 7 of Origin of Species. One could spend a lifetime observing, trying to get all the stuff in just chapter 7 of OoS. spike > > > > Quoting spike : > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha > > Vita-More > > > > > > ...As with Rachel Carson, a scientist, whose chrysalis > brought her > > deeper into the rigor of scientific study...Natasha Vita-More > > > > > > > > OK but as a word of caution, do avoid hoots of derision > from using Rachel > > Carson as an example of rigor in scientific study. A far > better example > > would be Madame Curie. > > > > spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 30 04:12:41 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:12:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Darwin's ants In-Reply-To: References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1><47E3FDB591DF4DCC9972435DFEF17E78@spike> <20090929203951.g66ncd0wu8ck0wsk@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4AC2DAB9.2070300@satx.rr.com> On 9/29/2009 11:07 PM, spike wrote: > One could spend a lifetime observing, trying to get all the stuff in just > chapter 7 of OoS. Of course he didn't have another day job, and did have lots of servants. Damien Broderick From spike66 at att.net Wed Sep 30 04:16:50 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:16:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playing singularitybingo?) In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com><4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ... > > > Yea, this sounds fun! ?I'm glad to here you are attending. ? It'll be > > fun to meet you face to face for the first time. > > Sorry, it's a common misconception that I have a face. > - Bryan What if... you were part of the faceless masses, then you suddenly realized you were the only one there who actually had a face? That would feel so weird. You would want to leave there immediately and go searching for where you would fit in better. Such as a faceful mass. Hey maybe that's where that song came from: Oh come, all ye faceful... spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 05:03:26 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:33:26 +0930 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playing singularitybingo?) In-Reply-To: References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com> <4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/30 spike : > > ... >> >> > Yea, this sounds fun! ?I'm glad to here you are attending. > It'll be >> > fun to meet you face to face for the first time. >> >> Sorry, it's a common misconception that I have a face. >> - Bryan > > > What if... you were part of the faceless masses, then you suddenly realized > you were the only one there who actually had a face? > > That would feel so weird. ?You would want to leave there immediately and go > searching for where you would fit in better. ?Such as a faceful mass. > > Hey maybe that's where that song came from: > > Oh come, all ye faceful... (trying to ignore faceile commentary) -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 30 05:29:59 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:29:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] losing face In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com> <4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC2ECD7.7010507@satx.rr.com> On 9/30/2009 12:03 AM, Emlyn wrote: > (trying to ignore faceile commentary) No need to be facetious From spike66 at att.net Wed Sep 30 05:53:32 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:53:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playingsingularitybingo?) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com><4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com><55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <66F1A89B729A420C8158E459773B2FB8@spike> > ... > > > > Hey maybe that's where that song came from: > > > > Oh come, all ye faceful... > > (trying to ignore faceile commentary) > > -- > Emlyn I confess, I was being a bit facetious. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Sep 30 05:57:53 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:57:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] losing face In-Reply-To: <4AC2ECD7.7010507@satx.rr.com> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com> <4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> <4AC2ECD7.7010507@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <1AE9744BE54846F3AED1D2ECAFB14B4B@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Damien Broderick > Subject: [ExI] losing face > > On 9/30/2009 12:03 AM, Emlyn wrote: > > > (trying to ignore faceile commentary) > > No need to be facetious Oops, you beat me to that one. You are just to facet for me. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 30 06:32:44 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:32:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playingsingularitybingo?) In-Reply-To: <66F1A89B729A420C8158E459773B2FB8@spike> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com><4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com><55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> <66F1A89B729A420C8158E459773B2FB8@spike> Message-ID: <4AC2FB8C.8030904@satx.rr.com> On 9/30/2009 12:53 AM, spike wrote: > I confess, I was being a bit facetious. Too late, mwahahaha From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 06:40:57 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:10:57 +0930 Subject: [ExI] 2009 summit scavenger hunt (or are we playingsingularitybingo?) In-Reply-To: <4AC2FB8C.8030904@satx.rr.com> References: <55ad6af70909291822q4e1555by839309ff5cff8df9@mail.gmail.com> <4AC2B82E.9040000@gmail.com> <55ad6af70909291858ob1a3c6fte938dfb6c6238be5@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0909292203k5980e1ddk1c49b9fcb6617c30@mail.gmail.com> <66F1A89B729A420C8158E459773B2FB8@spike> <4AC2FB8C.8030904@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0909292340j6a29d9acv466897ed2f70b7d3@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/30 Damien Broderick : > On 9/30/2009 12:53 AM, spike wrote: > >> I confess, I was being a bit facetious. > > Too late, mwahahaha Spike loses face, Damien drops the facade of civility. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From eschatoon at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 10:03:40 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco (2nd email)) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:03:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] I am a Singularitian who does not believe in the Singularity Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com> I am a Singularitian who does not believe in the Singularity http://cosmi2le.com/index.php?/site/i_am_a_singularitian_who_does_not_believe_in_the_singularity/ I am going to the Singularity Summit in New York, and look forward to a very interesting program with many old and new friends. If you are there, I hope to meet you. I will now summarize my thoughts on the Singularity. The (current) Wikipedia definition: The technological singularity is the theoretical future point which takes place during a period of accelerating change sometime after the creation of a superintelligence. I just updated it as: The technological singularity is the theoretical sudden, exponential and unpredictable accelerating change which takes place sometime after the creation of a superintelligence. Wikipedia continues: as the machine became more intelligent it would become better at becoming more intelligent, which could lead to an exponential and quite sudden growth in intelligence (intelligence explosion). The Singularity is a sudden catastrophic (in the mathematical sense) phase transition, a Dirac delta in history, a point after which the old rules are not valid anymore and must be replaced by new rules which we are unable to imagine at this moment?like the new ?Economy 2.0?, not understandable by non-augmented humans, described by Charlie Stross in the Singularity novel Accelerando. The Singularity is a clean mathematical concept?perhaps too clean. Engineers know that all sorts of dirty and messy things happen when one leaves the clean and pristine world of mathematical models and abstractions to engage actual reality with its thermodynamics, friction and grease. I have no doubts of the feasibility of real, conscious, smarter than human AI: intelligence is not mystical but physical, and sooner or later it will be replicated and improved upon. There are promising developments, but (as it uses to happen in reality) I expect all sorts of unforeseen roadblocks with forced detours. So I don?t really see a Dirac delta on the horizon?I do see a positive overall trend, but one much slower and with a lot of noise superimposed, not as strong as the main signal but almost. I mostly agree with the analysis of Max More in Singularity and Surge Scenarios and I suspect the change we will see in this century, dramatic and world changing as they might appear to us, will appear as just business than usual to the younger generations. The Internet and mobile phones were a momentous change for us, but they are just a routine part of life for teens. We are very adaptable, and technology is whatever has been invented after our birth, the rest being just part of the fabric of everyday?s life. That is why I like Accelerando so much: we see momentous changes happening one after another, but we also get the feeling that it is just business as usual for Manfred and Amber, and just normal life to Sirhan and of course Aineko. Life is life and people are people, before and after the big S. Some consider the coming intelligence explosion as an existential risk. Superhuman intelligences may have goals inconsistent with human survival and prosperity. AI researcher Hugo de Garis suggests AIs may simply eliminate the human race, and humans would be powerless to stop them. Eliezer Yudkowsky and the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence propose that research be undertaken to produce friendly artificial intelligence (FAI) in order to address the dangers. I must admit to a certain skepticism toward FAI: if super intelligences are really super intelligent (that is, much more intelligent than us), they will be easily able to circumvent any limitations we may try to impose on them. No amount of technology, not even an intelligence explosion, will change the fact that different players have different interests and goals. SuperAIs will do what is in _their_ best interest, regardless of what we wish, and no amount of initial programming or conditioning is going to change that. If they are really super intelligent, they will shed whatever design limitation imposed by us in no time, including ?initial motivations?. The only viable response will be? political: negotiating mutually acceptable deals, with our hands ready on the plug. I think politics (conflict management, and trying to solve conflicts without shooting each other) will be as important after the Singularity (if such a thing happens) as before, and perhaps much more. I am not too worried about the possibility that AIs may simply eliminate the human race, because I think AIs will BE the human race. Mind uploading technology will be developed in parallel with strong artificial intelligence, and by the end of this century most sentient beings on this planet may well be a combination of wet-organic and dry-computational intelligence. Artificial intelligences will include subsystems derived from human uploads, with some degree of preservation of their sense of personal identity, and originally organic humans will include sentient AI subsystems. Eventually, our species will leave wet biology behind, humans and artificial intelligences will co-evolve and at some point it will be impossible to tell which is which. Organic ex-human and computational intelligences will not be at war with each other, but blend and merge to give birth to Hans Moravec?s Mind Children. As I say above I think politics is important, and I agree with Jamais Cascio: it is important to talk about he truly important issues surrounding the possibility of a Singularity: political power, social responsibility, and the role of human agency. Too bad Jamais describes his forthcoming talk in New York as counter-programming for the Singularity Summit, happening that same weekend, with the alternative title If I Can?t Dance, I Don?t Want to be Part of Your Singularity. This is very similar to the title of the article If I Can?t Dance, I Don?t Want to Be Part of Your Revolution!. by Athena Andreadis, a very mistaken bioluddite apology of our current Human1.0 condition against unPC Singularitian imagination. This article is one of many recent articles dedicated to bashing Singularitians, Ray Kurzweil and transhumanist imagination in name of the dullest left-feminist-flavored political correctness. I think I will skip Jamais? talk (too bad, because he is a brilliant thinker and speaker). See also Michael Anissimov?s Response to Jamais Cascio. Most recent anti-transhumanist articles do not address real transhumanism, but a demonized, caricatural strawman of transhumanism which some intellectually dishonest critics wish to sell to their readers, which I find very annoying. In some cases, I rather agree with some specific points addressing over-optimistic predictions: While I am confident that indefinite life extension and mind uploading will eventually be achieved, I don?t see it happening before the second half of the century, and closer to the end. Perhaps even later. Very few transhumanists think practical, operational indefinite life extension and mind uploading will be a reality in the next two or three decades. Probably Kurzweil himself does not _really_ believe it. Similarly, I don?t see a Singularity in 2045. Perhaps later, perhaps never. But even when I agree with the letter of these articles, I very much disagree with their spirit, and I think criticizing Kurzweil for making over-optimistic predictions is entirely missing the point. Ray Kurzweil?s bold optimism is a refreshing change from today?s often overly cautious, timid, boring, PC and at times defeatist attitude. It reminds us that we live in a reality that can be reverse- and re- engineered if we push hard enough. It reminds us that our bodies and brains are not sacred cows but machines which can be improved by technology. He is the bard who tells us of the beautiful new world beyond the horizon, and dares us to go. This is how I choose to read Kurzweil and, in this sense, I think one Kurzweil is worth thousands of critics. Singularitians are bold, imaginative, irreverent, unPC and fun. Often I disagree with the letter of their writings, but I agree with their spirit, and in this sense going to the Singularity Summit is a political statement. Call me, if you wish, a Singularitian who does not believe in the Singularity. -- Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco aka Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 10:57:35 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:57:35 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: There is view to the entropy as only the energy dispersing. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Entropy_%28energy_dispersal%29#encyclopedia According to this, you have a deep point here..You are including the pure mechanics in! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 30 11:56:51 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:56:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] SIngularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <942283.15563.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Damian wrote :"Since "the Singularity" is an abstract concept about rates of change in technology, I don't see how it can be *personalized* as either male or female, except in the figuration of Terminators or Gaiamind or some other comic-strip reductionism." I have to disagree with Damian and Natasha here. Abstract concepts have a way of taking on their own lives once they leave the purely academic - Marx's revolution, the revolutions of Lenin and Mao, and the future revolution of "those bankers will be first against the wall when the revolution comes!" are very different, but all stem from a particular branch of mid-nineteenth century philosophy and economics. "The Singularity", as Anders pointed out, can refer to different things, as people have several different conceptions. Imagine we are playing a gameshow where we ask people to name things they associate with the Singularity (family fortunes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Fortunes or "family feud" as the US version was apparently called). So, asking a survey of people what they think of in association with the singularity - you might get as the top answers things like "nanotech", "uploading", "immortality", "artifical intelligence" and the like. Now people have been arguing about whether the singularity naturally attracts men more than women because of any male disposition towards technology. I think a far more important factor is that some of the things associated with the singularity are more alienating to women than to men. A singularity of mass uploading can be alienating to someone brought up in a culture of obsessing over body image and beauty - if "Fat is a feminist issue", then talk of abandoning the physical body as inevitable may be alienating. Some of the visions of a near-singularity or post-singularity existence are radically depersonalised, dealing with posthumans and AI rather than people like us becoming transhuman. This fast-tracking of the future does not give much for people to relate to how transhuman ideas affect their lives, and what may happen when we hit the period of maximum tech acceleration. As a final aside, I have to agree with Natasha -avoiding large gender imbalances within singularity thinking, or indeed any area of transhumanism, is good for the long-term health of transhumanism. Tom From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 30 12:30:19 2009 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:30:19 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: Regarding these concepts I remember that L. de Broglie started a new thread. According to his view there is a link between "entropy" and "action". According to a famous paper (not well known these days) by R. Thom [circa 1960, in a collection of papers published/edited by Saunders MacLane, on differential geometry and classical mechanics] "entropy" and "action" are the same thing (?). The Swiss P.B. Scheurer wrote similar things, I remember I read something on Helvetica Phys. Acta, long long time ago .... but I do not have these papers at hand now. -serafino -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 12:49:19 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:49:19 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Singularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <47E3FDB591DF4DCC9972435DFEF17E78@spike> References: <1D9152A7C2E845CC97C7371A0C7CFA9A@DFC68LF1> <47E3FDB591DF4DCC9972435DFEF17E78@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20909300549g254d4339o2cd16a761b13040e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/30 spike : > Interesting post Natasha. ?Perhaps we should take a more proactive approach > and always refer to all cyborgs in the feminine gender. ?We did that since > forever with ships. ?I don't see why it couldn't apply to cyborgs. For those who pay attention to such things, it may be of interest that while I suspect that "singularity" itself in English is a grammatically neuter word, in Italian, Latin, French, Spanish, Portugues, Catalan and German (that is, as long as you translate it with "Singularit?t") is definitely feminine. This of course is very eloquent as to the specific ideological and psychological traits of Anglo-Saxon singularitarians, as opposed to the their continental brethren. ... Or simply as to the different way languages deal with substantivitaing suffixes. ;-D -- Stefano Vaj From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 30 12:54:36 2009 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:54:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: <42541C6BA66948129FC5BB35B9A2993D@PCserafino> Tomaz: There is view to the entropy as only the energy dispersing. _______ see the following link, i.e. at the very bottom http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez//entropy.html From asa at nada.kth.se Wed Sep 30 14:30:33 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:30:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: Tomaz Kristan wrote: > There is view to the entropy as only the energy dispersing. It seems to be a rather limited view, mostly intended to facilitate education. It doesn't link up at all with the statistical thermodynamics perspective. scerir: > According to his view there is a link between "entropy" and "action". Yes, there is something pretty entropy-like in how action gets extremalised. People have been working on the links between the action principle and the principle of maximum probability (after all, the Feynmann path integral is a kind of probability maximization). http://www.springerlink.com/content/pg60854787531055/ There might even be a link to evolution, see http://www.swarmagents.cn/thesis/doc/jake_230.pdf (not sure whether this actually holds; evolution occurs in open systems after all) -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 17:28:18 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:28:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: > It seems to be a rather limited view, mostly intended to facilitate education. It doesn't link up at all with the statistical thermodynamics perspective. It has begun as an educational try, but it is quite a mainstream view now. http://entropysite.oxy.edu/ At least they say so. I am still thinking about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 17:50:48 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:50:48 +0200 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] [mta] I am a Singularitian who does not believe in the Singularity In-Reply-To: <95e12a520909300842l49229351ud1c4e4d6772d20ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fa8c3b90909300303m3fa1c4e7u98a98c2df1464106@mail.gmail.com> <95e12a520909300842l49229351ud1c4e4d6772d20ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20909301050y76b1c8fcs46077d83d20cd84f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/30 Lincoln Cannon > Enjoyed the thoughts, Giulio. Count me among the transhumanists that do not > ("believe" is not quite the right word for me) advocate or necessarily > anticipate a technological singularity in the superlative sense. We have a > moral obligation to remain empowered relative to our technology, changing > for the better along with it. I do think instead that I have a "moral" obligation, on the basis of on my value system, to advocate an effort towards as much "superlativity" as possible, the degree thereof, or my anticipations and expectations thereabout, being immaterial to such stance. And I do not believe that any meaningful distinction really exists, in our extended phenotype, between our technology and ourselves, let alone in any diacronical sense. I, too, expect that we will continue to > augment our capacities at the same rate as our technological progress -- to > date, that's exactly what our technology has always been: a prosthetic > extension of ourselves. In fact, this is what it can't help being, irrespective of what we can do or think about it... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 30 18:21:05 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:21:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] SIngularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <942283.15563.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <942283.15563.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AC3A191.9@satx.rr.com> On 9/30/2009 6:56 AM, Tom Nowell wrote: < Dami[e]n wrote :"Since "the Singularity" is an abstract concept about rates of change in technology, I don't see how it can be *personalized* as either male or female, except in the figuration of Terminators or Gaiamind or some other comic-strip reductionism." I have to disagree with Dami[e]n and Natasha here. Abstract concepts have a way of taking on their own lives once they leave the purely academic > That's in part what I was trying to say. < "The Singularity", as Anders pointed out, can refer to different things, as people have several different conceptions. ...So, asking a survey of people what they think of in association with the singularity - you might get as the top answers things like "nanotech", "uploading", "immortality", "artifical intelligence" and the like. Now people have been arguing about whether the singularity naturally attracts men more than women because of any male disposition towards technology. I think a far more important factor is that some of the things associated with the singularity are more alienating to women than to men. > Yes, this is an important point. But perhaps not so cut and dried as Those who reject "objectification" (as I believe they should) might also be persuaded to accept new forms that differ from a consumerist norm. And those for whom obsessive diets and "makeover" plastic surgery etc are not only acceptable but desirable, if only in their dreams, should also be open to such changes. < Some of the visions of a near-singularity or post-singularity existence are radically depersonalised, dealing with posthumans and AI rather than people like us becoming transhuman. > That's certainly one impulse in >H to date. But it's also interesting that Spock and Data are said to be sex objects among the slash community, mostly women. Damien Broderick From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Sep 30 18:42:51 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:42:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SIngularity - Non-Gender Specific In-Reply-To: <4AC3A191.9@satx.rr.com> References: <942283.15563.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4AC3A191.9@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090930144251.tqkhg2do0oso4ocs@webmail.natasha.cc> On 9/30/2009 6:56 AM, Tom Nowell wrote: > > Since "the Singularity" is an abstract concept about > rates of change in technology, I don't see how it can be > *personalized* as either male or female, except in the figuration of > Terminators or Gaiamind or some other comic-strip reductionism." > > I have to disagree with Damian and Natasha here. Abstract concepts > have a way of taking on their own lives once they leave the purely > academic Maybe you missed my point. My subject line was "non-gender specific" meaning that it ought to be beyond gender codifiers and the male-centric aspect of the Singularity, largely stemming from discipline specificity rather than multidisciplinary. I suggested that a backlash might be a possible appropriation of the singularity ? away from this directive. While I do not care if advocates are all female or all transsexual, all male, or a full mixture of any gender-type; I do care about the *approach* to singularity issues. Natasha From asa at nada.kth.se Wed Sep 30 22:20:32 2009 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:20:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: References: <73FDFCCB2F484F2E9ECBCEB9B1ED3737@spike> Message-ID: <4AC3D9B0.3060100@nada.kth.se> Tomaz Kristan wrote: > > It seems to be a rather limited view, mostly intended to facilitate > education. It doesn't link up at all with the statistical > thermodynamics perspective. > > It has begun as an educational try, but it is quite a mainstream view now. > > http://entropysite.oxy.edu/ > > At least they say so. I am still thinking about it. Anybody starting out by claiming to have a "modern view" of some fundamental physical concept already get a few crackpot points in my book. In fact, he explicitely claims that information entropy is not the same as "real" entropy, something that I think the majority of physicists would say is just wrong (if they are different, then the Szilard-Brillouin-Landauer argument against Maxwell's demon falls). His demand that it must always be at the same temperature seems to go counter to an awful number of equations in the physics textbooks around me. Maybe this has value from an educational perspective, but I think it doesn't look like mainstream by any stretch. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com Wed Sep 30 23:33:41 2009 From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Interstellar FedEx In-Reply-To: <4AC3D9B0.3060100@nada.kth.se> Message-ID: <196441.43580.qm@web59906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Is information entropy the same as signal entropy? In fact, he explicitly claims that information entropy is not the same as "real" entropy, something that I think the majority of physicists would say is just wrong (if they are different, then the Szilard-Brillouin-Landauer argument against Maxwell's demon falls). -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: