[ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress

Mirco Romanato painlord2k at libero.it
Tue Sep 1 19:15:03 UTC 2009

Post Futurist ha scritto:
> Vietnam? so many thousands of ex-'Nam soldiers are in pain; and who was 
> it Repuglicans ran for potus less than a year ago? a gung ho 'Nam 
> vet-- over 33 years after the war ended. The Vietnam war is NOT over.
> And we're also in another war. Thousands of casualties stateside.
> Constructivism is no longer a threat in schools, now deconstructionists 
> have much more latitude, not that their teaching can be termed 'morally 
> relativistic'; technically there is no longer any morality, 
> only situational ethics. Does cause exist for optimism? yes, for 12-16 
> students. Unfortunately, K-12 students are a captive audience, they 
> can't turn to the 'private sector' for guidance because their families 
> and peers are just as clueless.
>     From: Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>
>     Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress
>     To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>     Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 4:14 PM
>     "And leaving politics aside, the *real* stresses of
>     daily life for almost everyone have nothing at all
>     to do with those ancient wars or their after-effects."
>     Nothing at all??
>     BTW it wasn't a direct linkage-- needless (unless in public schools)
>     to say, conditions are different 1500- 2000 years later. The post
>     wasn't to even remotely suggest we'll be destroyed as the Roman
>     Empire was; but when we get to the point that so many are
>     celebrating Michael Jackson and Ted Kennedy as some sort of role
>     models(!), that is quite a stretch. Is it absolutely unreasonable to
>     infer we're devoid of at least conventional morality? Can we say
>     we're just making the rules up as we go along? I don't know and it
>     is disturbing you wizards almost certainly don't have a clue as to
>     today's morality (or lack thereof) and what is to come. The tunes
>     are being played by ear.
>     Schools were somewhat better during the '50s and '60s, and probably
>     during the '40s as well. I can't stand to speak to youths today; the
>     slop teechurs are pouring into their minds.
>     It's not at all encouraging that 100 years after 1909, government is
>     still so corrupt. And now such as auto companies can join in for the
>     fun.
>     Correct, Lee, we're not nearly at war in labor disputes as was the
>     case in 1909; no, instead over a $ trillion, plus hidden costs,
>     we're-- are-- spent on an external war that will go on for so
>     long who in their right mind wants to think about it? How much spent
>     on law enforcers, courts, prisons, battered families, costly
>     litigation? and all that jazz...
>     Different from 1909? yes. Better? maybe. I don't know, and it makes
>     me nervous none of you know, either. It is a photo that hasn't been
>     developed yet.
>     --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Lee Corbin /<lcorbin at rawbw.com>/* wrote:
>         From: Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
>         Subject: [ExI] Civilization, Virtue, and Stress
>         To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>         Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 11:16 PM
>         In "Re: [ExI] Tools for improving health care in the USA, now"
>         Post Futurist wrote:
>          > Stress? sure, there is no civilization.
>         Come now, don't be silly.
>          > America is like ancient Rome.. wealthy, powerful, but no virtue.
>         *No* virtue? Again, you exaggerate wildly. And it's
>         evident that you know very little about ancient Rome.
>         Whatever corruption, mal-distribution of power and
>         influence, disregard for individual rights that we
>         suffer in the modern world, multiply by 10 or 100
>         to get ancient Rome or Greece.
>         And as for brutality or intimidation by force, there
>         is utterly no comparison.
>          > Dysfunctional families. High crime.
>         As compared to what, when? Of course, it varies a lot
>         from neighborhood to neighborhood and city to city in
>         the West (or in America, as you write), and I'll have to
>         let others speak for their neighborhoods and cities.
>         Yes, there are more dysfunctional families in America
>         than in 1950. Most adults in the slums were married
>         back then, and relatively few children were born out
>         of wedlock. But "dysfunctional" in terms of intra-
>         family tension, alcoholism, and so forth, sadly the
>         situation has never been ideal.
>         And that's the eternal problem in the babblesphere
>         and among the chattering classes: invariably the
>         comparison is made to an ideal, rather than to anything
>         real (past or present).
>          > K-16 Schools that teach students not to think.
>         As compared to when?
>         Besides, to me it's not clear at all that you can "teach
>         someone to think". Yes, some constructivism in education
>         has been all to the good, but some of it is very bad.
>         I would guess that most schools and most home-schoolers
>         are not too far from a happy medium. (I am by no means
>         saying that things can't improve, nor suggesting that
>         anywhere near optimal learning and teaching strategies
>         geared to individuals have yet been found.)
>          > This country is still fighting not only Vietnam, but also the
>         Civil War; and after 144 years.
>          > Stress. you betcha.
>         Okay, there are still echos of both those conflicts,
>         in both politics and daily life.
>         But compared to 1909, when the country was nearly at
>         war with itself (labor vs. business), politically the
>         country today is quite united.
>         And leaving politics aside, the *real* stresses of
>         daily life for almost everyone have nothing at all
>         to do with those ancient wars or their after-effects.
>         Lee
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