From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 01:30:03 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:30:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
Message-ID: <q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 5:03 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> One last point. ?The last 8 Mersennes form a kind of hockey stick, but what
> if the ratios of the last 8 primes been anomalously large instead of
> anomalously small? ?We conjecture that there are infinitely many Mersenne
> primes, but had the hockey stick been pointed up instead of down, many of us
> would (most probably incorrectly) conclude that there is a finite number of
> Mersenne primes.
>
> More later. ?Assignment please: think about everything you know regarding
> the definition of statistical significance, and what it means to you.
>

Statistical significance is significant only to those who consider
statistical signficance.  :)

Qualitatively, my first observation was that there appear to be
several "steps" along the progression even before the run-of-8 that
you've highlighted.  Draw 'best fit' lines between any two consecutive
primes and see how closely they approximate another.  ex: between
X-axis 20 & 26 it looks like three run-of-3, between 33 & 37, three
'steps' of 2.  Is there a pattern to the occurrence and length of
these steps?  Maybe the "obvious" answer is no.  Perhaps the
non-obvious answer is yes.  when did the latest run become
"statistically significant"?  4 in a line, 5?  What made the 8th
occurrence special?  Should we be able to predict (with measurable
degree of confidence) that the significant run will extend to a 9th
point along the highlighted curve, or will it shift up some amount as
we've seen around 10 times previously?

Have you looked a Penrose tiling?  from two basic shapes and some
matching rules a non-periodic pattern emerges that we recognize has
having an order (pattern) but without symmetry.  Maybe the 'order' in
which Mersenne primes manifest is another example of a non-periodic
pattern; one with too few examples for us to yet uncover the
underlying rules.  ...but that's why we keep searching for more
examples, right?



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 04:42:08 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:42:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mersenne primes again
> 
...
> >
> > More later. ?Assignment please: think about everything you know 
> > regarding the definition of statistical significance, and 
> what it means to you.
> >
> 
> Statistical significance is significant only to those who 
> consider statistical signficance.  :)

Mike, here's where I was going with that question.  The notion of
statistical significance is a simplification that draws attention to plenty
of ordinary stuff and distracts attention from plenty of important signals.
The 95%ile criterion is arbitrary, meaningless and often harmful because
statistics teachers and textbooks fail to explain that critically important
point.  Students and later professionals forget what it really means (very
little) and make fundamental mistakes.  

The baby boom/power outage is a fine example: it is impossible to find the
extra infants nine months after a power outage statistically.  The very
slight (theoretical) increase would never be noticed at the obstetric ward.
But turn the question around, and ask the question Drake style: what number
of anomalous births would you expect per million powerless proles?  I get 1
to 4 ish, which you wouldn't expect to find by data analysis. The 2 sigma
statistical significance techniques would put the extra infants at zero by
assuming the null hypothesis.  

Using Drake's notions, can you logically assign the number of anomalous
births from a blackout to a value of zero?  I can't even find assumptions
that would get it all the way to zero.

Another good example is one that interests Damien.  When doing experiments
like having someone guess the next card to measure paranatural phenomena,
you could intentionally insert a few marked cards.  If you do that, but not
too many, our traditional techniques for determining statistical
significance would not detect the funny business.  We are programmed from
our misspent youth to disregard any observation that doesn't make
statistical significance.  Then if it does make that arbitrary criterion for
statistical significance, we are programmed to figure out who was screwing
with the experiment.  If any phenomenon has no theoretical explanation, it
is either missing in the experiemental data or it was a bad experiment.  We
couldn't find real psi if it slapped us in the face.  

Damien, you may use that, with my blessing.  Note I am not saying I think
psi is real, only that we couldn't find it if it is.
 
> ...
> 
> Have you looked a Penrose tiling?...

Early and often.

...
>  Maybe the 'order' in which Mersenne primes manifest is 
> another example of a non-periodic pattern; one with too few 
> examples for us to yet uncover the underlying rules.  ...but 
> that's why we keep searching for more examples, right?

Ja.  It is of particular interest to me, since the field of prognostication
using statistical techniques is so maddeningly fraught with ways to fool
oneself.  I did it myself, with a technique which is described in Damien's
The Spike.  I used superposition of probability distribution functions to
make a prediction of when the next record prime number would be discovered
back in 1999.  I extrapolated the growth rate of GIMPS, then looked at the
cumulative probability over a time span, and just reported the date upon
which we would have accumulated a 50% chance.  

Turns out it was remarkably close to right, but for the wrong reasons: I had
compensating errors.  GIMPS grew much faster than I anticipated, but the gap
was anomalously large.  That flawed technique worked pretty well, three
times in a row.  I fooled myself, but I had fun.  I made a buttload of
"money" on Ideas Futures with that, but I feel the need to return the
"money" somehow, since I wasn't really "right."  There is no way to return
the "money" in IFX.

{8^]

spike




From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 05:42:06 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 06:42:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
Message-ID: <h2zee50357e1003312242w61e4f04er2ea0359758c781d7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:42 AM, spike ?wrote:
> Ja. ?It is of particular interest to me, since the field of prognostication
> using statistical techniques is so maddeningly fraught with ways to fool
> oneself. ?I did it myself, with a technique which is described in Damien's
> The Spike. ?I used superposition of probability distribution functions to
> make a prediction of when the next record prime number would be discovered
> back in 1999. ?I extrapolated the growth rate of GIMPS, then looked at the
> cumulative probability over a time span, and just reported the date upon
> which we would have accumulated a 50% chance.
>
> Turns out it was remarkably close to right, but for the wrong reasons: I had
> compensating errors. ?GIMPS grew much faster than I anticipated, but the gap
> was anomalously large. ?That flawed technique worked pretty well, three
> times in a row. ?I fooled myself, but I had fun. ?I made a buttload of
> "money" on Ideas Futures with that, but I feel the need to return the
> "money" somehow, since I wasn't really "right." ?There is no way to return
> the "money" in IFX.
>
>

Have you read this article?
<http://primes.utm.edu/notes/faq/NextMersenne.html>

This graph looks interesting to me.
<http://primes.utm.edu/gifs/cum_gaps.gif>

BillK



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr  1 05:44:29 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 00:44:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
Message-ID: <4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>

On 3/31/2010 11:42 PM, spike wrote:

> If any phenomenon has no theoretical explanation, it
> is either missing in the experiemental data or it was a bad experiment.  We
> couldn't find real psi if it slapped us in the face.
>
> Damien, you may use that, with my blessing.  Note I am not saying I think
> psi is real, only that we couldn't find it if it is.

The first paragraph above is so preposterous I can't believe that I'm 
really  seeing it on my monitor. Almost *no* phenomena studied by 
scientists during the last 400 years had a theoretical explanation until 
fairly recently, and even now it tends to boil down to something like 
"symmetry demands it," and if that doesn't work "broken symmetry demands 
it." Wow, *symmetry*, eh? That certainly saves us from all those bad 
experiments and a slap in the face.

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 06:13:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:13:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <h2zee50357e1003312242w61e4f04er2ea0359758c781d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike><q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com><A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
	<h2zee50357e1003312242w61e4f04er2ea0359758c781d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A22963EC7E924123ACD3189E6EC32BE7@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mersenne primes again
> 
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:42 AM, spike ?wrote:
> > Ja. ?It is of particular interest to me, since the field of 
> > prognostication using statistical techniques is so maddeningly fraught 
> > with ways to fool oneself. ?I did it myself...
> 
> Have you read this article?
> <http://primes.utm.edu/notes/faq/NextMersenne.html>
> 
> This graph looks interesting to me.
> <http://primes.utm.edu/gifs/cum_gaps.gif>
> 
> BillK

Ja thanks BillK I am well acquainted with this article.  I am a big fan of
Chris Caldwell.  He can do better than this; that article is far from his
best work.  That being said, overall, Caldwell's prime pages are excellent,
ineresting and informative.  That relationship with Euler's constant may be
a perfect example of how we can fool ourselves with something that kinda
works.

spike


  




From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 06:36:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:36:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com><A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
	<4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <91679EADDDD7437482898D9B5136AD9D@spike>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Damien Broderick
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 10:44 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mersenne primes again
> 
> On 3/31/2010 11:42 PM, spike wrote:
> 
> > If any phenomenon has no theoretical explanation, it is 
> either missing 
> > in the experiemental data or it was a bad experiment.  We couldn't 
> > find real psi if it slapped us in the face.
> >
> > Damien, you may use that, with my blessing.  Note I am not saying I 
> > think psi is real, only that we couldn't find it if it is.
> 
> The first paragraph above is so preposterous I can't believe 
> that I'm really  seeing it on my monitor. Almost *no* 
> phenomena studied by scientists during the last 400 years had 
> a theoretical explanation until fairly recently, and even now 
> it tends to boil down to something like "symmetry demands 
> it," and if that doesn't work "broken symmetry demands it." 
> Wow, *symmetry*, eh? That certainly saves us from all those 
> bad experiments and a slap in the face.
> 
> Damien Broderick

Do have a sense of humor, my published friend.  I was using the comment as a
form of self-deprecating humor for scientific types to jab ourselves.  Yes
it is preposterous: our current mathematical techniques encorage us to
disregard findings we cannot explain.  We are driven by theoretical
considerations, far more than we are by measurements.  For instance, the
whole cold-fusion debate is really all about theory.  No one seems
particularly interested in who is measuring excess heat.  I am not saying I
believe in cold fusion, I don't.  I am agreeing I wouldn't get it if it bit
me on the ass. 

The way statistical methods are being taught in colleges actually makes the
problem worse.  We miss a bunch of stuff because it doesn't make a
completely arbitrary level of weirdness.  We disregard perfectly good data
if the signal is sufficiently weird.

If anything, over time we are getting worse instead of better at either
missing or disregarding signal, because we were taught with sincerity that
there is something magic about 95% confidence level.  MAGIC don't you know!
Because of that notion, if there really is some form of weak psi, it could
*easily* fly under the radar indefinitely, seldom making the magic 95%
weirdness level, and being disregarded as a mistake whenever it does.

If we are uncomfortable with the psi example, do let us go to an alternate
notion with at least some theoretically imaginable basis: the possibility
that we are all simulated beings, or that you are, YOU dear reader, the only
actual being (kinda like Truman Burbank) and we are all actors or simulated
actors.  Such a thing could be imagined, and there would be very subtle
hints of our (our your) digitally simulated nature that pop up here and
there on occasion.  Like in Truman's case, there always seemed to be a
logical enough explanation.  In our (or your) case, the professor or
textbook that explained to you statistical significance as if it is some law
of nature rather than an arbitrary protocol holds us (or you) in our (your)
simulated world.

spike




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr  1 07:10:17 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 02:10:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <91679EADDDD7437482898D9B5136AD9D@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com><A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>	<4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
	<91679EADDDD7437482898D9B5136AD9D@spike>
Message-ID: <4BB446D9.1050504@satx.rr.com>

On 4/1/2010 1:36 AM, spike wrote:

> Do have a sense of humor, my published friend.  I was using the comment as a
> form of self-deprecating humor for scientific types to jab ourselves.  Yes
> it is preposterous: our current mathematical techniques encorage us to
> disregard findings we cannot explain.

Okay, and what I wrote (humorlessly) does indeed accord with your mild 
self-mockery, but goes further, I'd say. The way you use the word 
"explain" above is indeed typical of scientific thinking at any given 
time, but it's really used to mean "fits in with this current 
simplifying model". That's very sensible heuristically, and pays off a 
lot of the time, but it does risk excluding data that doesn't yet have a 
handy model. So I'm not persuaded statistics is the key to what's going 
wrong; psi research, for example, is replete with sophisticated stats. 
Such a phenomenon is excluded not because it only deviates from mean 
chance expectation at the 0.05 or even 0.001 level (say), but because it 
offends or exceeds the current model. The explanatory protocol's tail is 
wagging the dog.

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 07:15:07 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:15:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Personality may influence brain shrinkage in aging
Message-ID: <y2xee50357e1004010015r9e8eed01q2836a47a4e546d7e@mail.gmail.com>

Psychologists at Washington University in St. Louis have found an
intriguing possibility that personality and brain aging during the
golden years may be linked.
<http://www.physorg.com/news189188726.html>

?A unique thing that we?ve done is to reliably measure personality
differences and associate them with age-related effects on brain
structures in healthy middle-aged and older adults? Head says.
?Specifically, we found that neuroticism was associated with greater
age-related decline in brain volume, whereas conscientiousness was
associated with less age-related decline.?
------------

Bah!  And I was looking forward to being a grumpy old man, moaning
about everything.

Now I've got to be insanely cheerful about everything.

Still, the good side is that that will probably annoy people even more!

Win - win!

BillK



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 09:20:32 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:20:32 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 'RapeLay' video game goes viral amid outrage
In-Reply-To: <x2ma6a17bd41003311053nafe47657z41d06befebd99ee4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2d6187671003301656r3ffb5e11g81c0e4e491a2e1cd@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2ma6a17bd41003311053nafe47657z41d06befebd99ee4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2x580930c21004010220w62dc76c5w40359aacde859397@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 March 2010 19:53, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/3/30 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
>> This CNN article tells of public anger against Japanese videogame makers who
>> let players commit virtual rape.? I wonder where future technological
>> advances will take this matter...? And can the courts and law enforcement
>> curtail it?
>
> Do you really want to curtail it? ?Sure, you're offended, so am I, but
> does that trump free speech?

No. I doesn't. Or shouldn't, at least.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 10:39:58 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 06:39:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
	<4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> The first paragraph above is so preposterous I can't believe that I'm really
> ?seeing it on my monitor. Almost *no* phenomena studied by scientists during
> the last 400 years had a theoretical explanation until fairly recently, and
> even now it tends to boil down to something like "symmetry demands it," and
> if that doesn't work "broken symmetry demands it." Wow, *symmetry*, eh? That
> certainly saves us from all those bad experiments and a slap in the face.

I mentioned symmetry wrt Penrose tiling.  This morning I was thinking
about symmetry as a quality of physical beauty/attractiveness
(symmetry of features on a face, for example).  What makes us perceive
symmetry as an ideal?  Maybe it's the decreased energy expenditure
thinking about only half a problem then "by symmetry" the complete
answer is mirrored or folded onto the other half.  Seems to me that
supposing something is correct based on the 'demands' of symmetry is a
form of religious belief in the inherent value of symmetry as a ruler.

I think what spike was suggesting is that using statistics alone, we
may experience real psi effects but still not "see" it because the 95%
confidence criteria is not met.  We only need to win 51% of the time
to be profitable in Vegas, so what's with the arbitrary 0.95
confidence?  If I had to be 95% certain of anything before I could do
it, I would be forced to never got out of bed in the morning.
(However, I am only about 75% sure of even that assumption)


There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 10:45:19 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 06:45:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <h2zee50357e1003312242w61e4f04er2ea0359758c781d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
	<h2zee50357e1003312242w61e4f04er2ea0359758c781d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2h62c14241004010345s7f7e3686kca1f65429c91b21d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 1:42 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have you read this article?
> <http://primes.utm.edu/notes/faq/NextMersenne.html>
>
> This graph looks interesting to me.
> <http://primes.utm.edu/gifs/cum_gaps.gif>
>

If we're trading links on Primes, how 'bout this:
http://www.numberspiral.com/

It another example where I think, "This means something" but it might
turn out to just be mashed potatoes after all.


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 15:26:54 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:26:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike><q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com><A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike><4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
	<j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mersenne primes again
> 
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Damien Broderick 
> >...Wow, *symmetry*, eh? That certainly saves us 
> from all those bad experiments and a slap in the face.
> 
> ...Seems to me that 
> supposing something is correct based on the 'demands' of 
> symmetry is a form of religious belief in the inherent value 
> of symmetry as a ruler...

Ja that is pointed up by Chris Calwell's page, the Wagstaff conjecture: the
number of Mersenne primes less than or equal to x is about (e^gamma/log 2) *
log log x.  (Here gamma is Euler's constant).  It is such a beautiful
theory, gorgeous it is.  But I think the relationship is coincidental, for
reasons I will cover at some later date, perhaps with a subgroup of ExI math
fans.  

For now I want to stay on the aspect that is relevant to extropy. 

> I think what spike was suggesting is that using statistics 
> alone, we may experience real psi effects but still not "see" 
> it because the 95% confidence criteria is not met...

Ja.  Take the textbook example, or one that is in my textbook.  Twenty
babies are born to smoking mothers, and 14 of those are below average
weight.  Is this data statistically significant?  I get 93.4% confidence,
which doesn't quite make the cut, but the cut is arbitrary.  There is plenty
of reason to be suspicious that smoking somehow causes lowered birth rates.

I would suggest we change the way statistics textbooks present that topic.

> There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Even if the statistics are done correctly, they are often, if not usually,
misleading.  That discipline is so filled with shortcuts, the results are
more often useless than otherwise.

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 16:15:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:15:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] guam may capsize
Message-ID: <F13C5568F9854AC5BFBF1160D19F451B@spike>

This isn't an April Fools joke or an Onion skit, but it should put you in
the spirit of the day:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg&feature=player_embedded>
&feature=player_embedded
 
...until you realize that people like this vote with your money.
 
spike
 
 
 
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  1 16:35:39 2010
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:35:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
Message-ID: <771320.39010.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 4/1/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> The baby boom/power outage is a fine example: it is impossible to find 
> the extra infants nine months after a power outage statistically.? The 
> very slight (theoretical) increase would never be noticed at the 
> obstetric ward. But turn the question around, and ask the question Drake
> style: what number of anomalous births would you expect per million 
> powerless proles??

It seems to me that in order to follow what you call "Drake style" we must beg the question. In this case we must beg the question of whether power outages affect birthrates. Granted it seems reasonable to assume a causal relationship and as you say "turn the question around," but I think it rather defeats the purpose of the analysis. 

We want to know, in the first place, whether the power outage affected the birthrate. Traditional methods give us the answer: the researcher can report with 95% confidence that chance alone explains the small uptick in the birthrate nine months after the power outage. While his answer may seem counter-intuitive, keep in mind that it's the job of statistical analysis to check our intuitions! 

Perhaps Trojan happened by sheer chance to offer a two-for-one sale on condoms on the day before the power outage. We would never discover this fact if we let our intuitions over-rule the data. 

-gts





      



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 17:05:05 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:05:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
	<4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
	<j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com>
	<C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike>
Message-ID: <p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:26 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Even if the statistics are done correctly, they are often, if not usually,
> misleading. ?That discipline is so filled with shortcuts, the results are
> more often useless than otherwise.

So what are you proposing as an alternative/replacement?



From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  1 15:29:56 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Personality may influence brain shrinkage in aging
In-Reply-To: <y2xee50357e1004010015r9e8eed01q2836a47a4e546d7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <757765.51786.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

"Bah!? And I was looking forward to being a grumpy old man, moaning
about everything. Now I've got to be insanely cheerful about everything.
Still, the good side is that that will probably annoy people even more!
Win - win!
BillK"
?
Best nootropic for the golden years: Budwiser-- it makes you WISER.


      
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  1 18:12:27 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:12:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] 'RapeLay' video game goes viral amid outrage
In-Reply-To: <mailman.226.1270141806.17873.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <396445.57774.qm@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Isabelle Hakala <ismirth at gmail.com> wrote:

> Honestly I feel we should have more outlets for people to
> deal with their
> bizarre and socially unacceptable fantasies so that they
> may work through
> them. We make such fantasies such a big huge bad thing that
> most people
> won't deal with what is behind them, thus they build up,
> and later if there
> is a trigger or a break of some sort, the person might
> actually do the
> thing. However, if people could act out these fantasies in
> a safe way, and
> thus deal with what is behind them, I think it would be
> very therapeutic for
> them.
> 
> Lots of people have rape fantasies. And it would be a great
> way for people
> to work through them without having to experiment with
> their significant
> other.
> 
> The people that would justify that the video game made them
> think it was ok
> to rape people, would simply have come up with some other
> justification in
> their minds, if they would actually rape someone. You can't
> stop people from
> being bad if that is what they are going to be.

That's the most sensible thing I've heard anyone say about this.  Fantasy is just that, fantasy.  As in 'not real'.  It saddens me that effort, money and time are wasted in suppressing this sort of thing (or unsuccessfully trying to, anyway), while real people are really being harmed. 

Maybe it's just that causing a fuss about depictions of things is so much easier than trying to actually prevent real people from suffering real harm.  Anyone with a conscience will be outraged about actual rape, not some video game.

Trying to stop people doing *anything at all* in a virtual environment like a game is tantamount to trying to control their thoughts (and may well be exactly equivalent to that in the future).  Peoples' reasons for wanting to play this game are completely irrelevant.  The real issue is power over what people are allowed to think.

It's funny (tragic funny) that depictions of violence involving knives, guns, chainsaws, or whatever, raise barely a murmur, no matter how gruesome, but put genitals in there (even in a non-violent situation) and there's a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, and we're suddenly in moral deep water.  I bet this game wouldn't have even seen the light of day (in the media, 5 years late) if it were about cutting people's heads off with machetes.

Ben Zaiboc


      



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Apr  1 18:52:32 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:52:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] 'RapeLay' video game goes viral amid outrage
In-Reply-To: <396445.57774.qm@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <396445.57774.qm@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39677.12.77.168.196.1270147952.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



There is an article in the March "The Scientist" that covers some similar territory
- saying "Scientific examination of the subject [p*rn] has found that as the use of
p*rn increases, the rate of sex crimes goes down."

Regards,
MB

> Isabelle Hakala <ismirth at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Honestly I feel we should have more outlets for people to
>> deal with their
>> bizarre and socially unacceptable fantasies so that they
>> may work through
>> them. We make such fantasies such a big huge bad thing that
>> most people
>> won't deal with what is behind them, thus they build up,
>> and later if there
>> is a trigger or a break of some sort, the person might
>> actually do the
>> thing. However, if people could act out these fantasies in
>> a safe way, and
>> thus deal with what is behind them, I think it would be
>> very therapeutic for
>> them.
>>



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 20:52:47 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:52:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <771320.39010.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <771320.39010.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <746F4873185746DF994AFE06597906DC@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe
> ...
> 
> Perhaps Trojan happened by sheer chance to offer a 
> two-for-one sale on condoms on the day before the power 
> outage. We would never discover this fact if we let our 
> intuitions over-rule the data.  -gts

Damien wrote a short story called The Magi, wherein a mentally disturbed
priest follows his religious convictions to their logical conclusion, then
does what appears to be sheer madness, but really isn't.  He follows a
perfectly linear series of steps, each based completely on sane logic, and
ends at a horrifying absurdity.

Using Drake style reasoning, a person whose religious beliefs go against
birth control could get a job on the night shift at the Trojan factory, then
sneak in with a needle and punch a clean hole in the condoms.  Or get a job
at the birth control factory and substitute some of the pills for placebos.

G, I get your point: using Drake style reasoning, it is impossible to get
the number of expected extra-terrestrial civilizations to go to zero, and
using that line of reasoning also prevents getting the number of
power-failure babies to go to zero.  In that sense the line of reasoning
itself is suspect, agreed.  On the other hand, if we do Drake-style
reasoning and theorize 1 to 4 extra births per million, that signal isn't
detectable either, using known statistical methods.  This demonstrates that
our current methods of understanding what we see are far from perfect,
causing us to miss so much.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 20:58:30 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:58:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike><q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com><A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike><4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com><j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com><C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike>
	<p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A410CDA067004A9FBA89B3A80E8931F7@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mersenne primes again
> 
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:26 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > Even if the statistics are done correctly, they are often, if not 
> > usually, misleading. ?That discipline is so filled with 
> shortcuts, the 
> > results are more often useless than otherwise.
> 
> So what are you proposing as an alternative/replacement?

Dunno.  But I see plenty of reason for hope.  Currently our math curriculum
is self limited by the traditional teaching paradigms of one prole lecturing
in front of thirty proles, and having all the problems solvable in a few
minutes, so that one's competence can be proven in a one-hour written test.
It leads directly to the kinds of problems that are unlike real-world
problems, and solution methods that are filled with algoritmic "thinking"
and over-simplifications.

In the future, we need not be bound by that method learning, nor that method
of proving competence.  We can imagine creating software that frees us from
both these problems.  I am seeing a lot of promise in my three-yr-old son's
educational software, specifically a program called "JumpStart" with a lot
of extremely good educational games.

spike





From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 21:12:01 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:12:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <746F4873185746DF994AFE06597906DC@spike>
References: <771320.39010.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<746F4873185746DF994AFE06597906DC@spike>
Message-ID: <g2nffd22f9d1004011412m67739c3en85ce58bb7bfd2d7c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:52 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> G, I get your point: using Drake style reasoning, it is impossible to get
> the number of expected extra-terrestrial civilizations to go to zero, and
> using that line of reasoning also prevents getting the number of
> power-failure babies to go to zero.

What your power failure Drake equation is missing is that it doesn't
take into account the number of pregnancies that the power failure
prevents, e.g., due to romantic liaisons that would have happened
otherwise but are prevented by at least one party being involved with
restoring power, monitoring backup power systems, or being on standby
for dealing with the restoration of power, e.g., in a data or
communications center.

-Dave


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 21:35:16 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:35:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <A410CDA067004A9FBA89B3A80E8931F7@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike><q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com><A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike><4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com><j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com><C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike><p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com>
	<A410CDA067004A9FBA89B3A80E8931F7@spike>
Message-ID: <7D856B5E0BAA46CFBD7A3100ABA9377D@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of spike
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mersenne primes again
... 
> > So what are you proposing as an alternative/replacement?
> 
> Dunno.  But I see plenty of reason for hope...spike

Nah, I can do better than that.  I do have an idea.

In engineering school, we spend four full quarters learning traditional
calculus, then another quarter of differential equations.  All that valuable
classroom time is spent learning how to do closed form solutions, integrals
and differentials.

In my 26 yr career as a rocket scientist, I used that skill only four times,
and even that understates my point.  In any big company, you don't need to
know the answer, you only need to know the cat who knows the answer.  I was
the go-to guy on math; any math question I had the reputation as the one to
see, and please do, I love all kinds of math.  But closed-form integration
and differentiation is pretty much a useless skill in itself, yet we invest
huge amounts of undergrad energy and time in it.

In the real world, if you ever get a real calculus type problem, you do the
integration digitially.  Hell, Newton realized this about 10 minutes after
he invented calculus, way back in the days before all the cool integrations
had been done.  If you look at his Principia, you will find he spent most of
his time figuring out approximation methods, because that is the really
useful skill.

An alternative to learning how to integrate closed-form functions might be
learning to really get hot with your spreadsheets, do digital approximations
of the integrals.  In fact, you could use a spreadsheet to estimate all your
differentials, and so you could work backwards and figure out the closed
form derivative from digital results.  

Recently Keith and I were fooling with a spreadsheet I wrote about 15 yrs
ago to estimate rocket booster performance taking into account aerodynamic
drag and rocket motor thrust.  That is a really good example of a real-world
problem that cannot be done effectively in closed form, because there are
too many variables changing too many ways.  

Better than spending a year on calculus would be a parallel path which
students could choose, which takes advantage of a tool we didn't have in my
misspent youth: the spreadsheet.

spike




From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr  1 22:09:29 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 23:09:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <7D856B5E0BAA46CFBD7A3100ABA9377D@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
	<4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
	<j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com>
	<C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike>
	<p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com>
	<A410CDA067004A9FBA89B3A80E8931F7@spike>
	<7D856B5E0BAA46CFBD7A3100ABA9377D@spike>
Message-ID: <m2qee50357e1004011509z4f75f0e6g74bf5489c0ed2f74@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/1/10, spike  wrote:
<snip>
>  Better than spending a year on calculus would be a parallel path which
>  students could choose, which takes advantage of a tool we didn't have in my
>  misspent youth: the spreadsheet.
>
>


Really???  You think???

You probably haven't heard that somewhere between 90% and 100% of
spreadsheets are found to contain errors when audited.

See: <http://www.louisepryor.com/showTopic.do?topic=31>
Quote:
A few years ago Professor Ray Panko, at the University of Hawaii,
pulled together the available evidence from field audits of
spreadsheets. These are the results he shows:

Total 91%

More recently Lawrence and Lee analysed 30 project financing
spreadsheets. All 30 had errors; the error rate was 100%.
-------------------

Also see:
<http://www.eusprig.org/stories.htm>
for a selection of horror stories.
-------------------

That's what you get when everybody and his dog think they can just
slap a bit of data and a few calculations into a spreadsheet. Easy -
peasy.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  1 22:40:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:40:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
Message-ID: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>

New federal standards for fuel economy in cars:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/01/obama-administration-releases-new
-fuel-efficiency-rules/
 
The big talk is about how much more dangerous these tiny cars will be,
however the criteria upon which the numbers are based seem to have at least
two obvious systematic errors.  They go on and on about how the occupants of
the tiny cars are more likely to die in a collision, but it looks to me like
they fail to account for the fact that the smaller cars are slower, so they
should not just rely on the standard 60 mph head-on into a barrier.  Perhaps
they should equate standard modern Detroits at 60 with the future microcars
at 45.
 
Second, the presence of the tiny cars makes it safer for everyone who does
not drive them.  If some drunken prole hits me while I am driving Mister
Lincoln, she is more likely to perish, but I am less likely to do so, or
even to suffer severe injury.  That seems like at least a break-even
safety-wise.
 
spike
 
 
 
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 00:06:20 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 20:06:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <7D856B5E0BAA46CFBD7A3100ABA9377D@spike>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>
	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>
	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>
	<4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>
	<j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com>
	<C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike>
	<p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com>
	<A410CDA067004A9FBA89B3A80E8931F7@spike>
	<7D856B5E0BAA46CFBD7A3100ABA9377D@spike>
Message-ID: <r2t62c14241004011706g49a5a702l4780bc5f57e9dd4b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> the go-to guy on math; any math question I had the reputation as the one to
> see, and please do, I love all kinds of math. ?But closed-form integration

'made me think to ask you...

> Recently Keith and I were fooling with a spreadsheet I wrote about 15 yrs
> ago to estimate rocket booster performance taking into account aerodynamic
> drag and rocket motor thrust. ?That is a really good example of a real-world
> problem that cannot be done effectively in closed form, because there are
> too many variables changing too many ways.

... and this is a nice segue ...

> Better than spending a year on calculus would be a parallel path which
> students could choose, which takes advantage of a tool we didn't have in my
> misspent youth: the spreadsheet.

Have you read anything about Genetic Algorithms as a solution finder?

I'm working on an undergrad seminar paper that discusses a GA
implemented in SQL for the purpose of discovering a relationship
between keywords in a person's business title and their likelihood of
clicking on a link in an email.

The beauty of the genetic algorithm is that it finds 'pretty good'
solutions even when the ideal solution is not known and when there are
too many interdependent variables to make other solution finders
perform in reasonable time (as in your rocket design problem)  The
basic design is fairly easy to implement.  The rest of exploration and
exploitation of the solution space is done by throwing CPU/resource at
it.  That wasn't too feasible 30 years ago, but it's pretty affordable
today.  I was mostly curious if you've even heard of genetic
algorithms...



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr  2 00:26:12 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:26:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <r2t62c14241004011706g49a5a702l4780bc5f57e9dd4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike>	<q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com>	<A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike>	<4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com>	<j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com>	<C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike>	<p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com>	<A410CDA067004A9FBA89B3A80E8931F7@spike>	<7D856B5E0BAA46CFBD7A3100ABA9377D@spike>
	<r2t62c14241004011706g49a5a702l4780bc5f57e9dd4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BB539A4.6050501@satx.rr.com>

On 4/1/2010 7:06 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> I was mostly curious if you've even heard of genetic
> algorithms...

Is there anyone here who hasn't? Seems unlikely.


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr  2 01:47:32 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:47:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <r2t62c14241004011706g49a5a702l4780bc5f57e9dd4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <566310.37183.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><43A8F27F63AE4E1A9792705FF506F430@spike><q2v62c14241003311830lef7dc013ub428718d3eda5ffd@mail.gmail.com><A796382C15AD45C6B81DA2AB32CA3449@spike><4BB432BD.1030709@satx.rr.com><j2q62c14241004010339u6619fe1bg39e08393e93c6d71@mail.gmail.com><C997420038A84863B2B261B17C4DA4F6@spike><p2y62c14241004011005u50f09ea1ne1016578d0f12971@mail.gmail.com><A410CDA067004A9FBA89B3A80E8931F7@spike><7D856B5E0BAA46CFBD7A3100ABA9377D@spike>
	<r2t62c14241004011706g49a5a702l4780bc5f57e9dd4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFC311B8C6D3423C932E9B82C3474986@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
> ...

Apologies I am near or past my posting limit for the day, but I will be away
for the weekend, so somewhere on this planet it is already tomorrow.
 
> Have you read anything about Genetic Algorithms as a solution finder?

Read on them, written them, had a blast programming my brains out with it.
The spreadsheet format is an especially useful programming environment for
doing this kind of experimentation, especially as one gets hot with the
macros.  

> I'm working on an undergrad seminar paper that discusses a GA 
> implemented in SQL for the purpose of discovering a 
> relationship between keywords in a person's business title 
> and their likelihood of clicking on a link in an email...

Ja, a great example of where SQL is way better than the spreadsheet format.

> The beauty of the genetic algorithm is that it finds 'pretty good'
> solutions even when the ideal solution is not known and when 
> there are too many interdependent variables to make other 
> solution finders perform in reasonable time...

Agree.

>...I was mostly curious if you've even heard of genetic algorithms...Mike

Ja, actually I think most people have at least heard of it, and plenty of
amateur programmers have tried to use the principles.  I thought of the
genetic algorithm as the logical extrapolation of the field we geezers used
to call the calculus of variation.  I wrote a technical paper about this
(calculus of variation, not yet called genetic algorithms) in 1994 for an
engineering society.  The notion was that one had to set a bunch of
interconnected variables to optimize a number of outputs.  The trick was to
find how all the variables interacted.  Fun stuff!

Mike I need to get up to speed on what the genetic algorithm guys have been
doing recently, so thanks for mentioning it.

spike 




From max at maxmore.com  Fri Apr  2 04:12:06 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 23:12:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Statistical significance
Message-ID: <201004020438.o324cuwX017306@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

spike: Have you read Taleb's Black Swan? He has interesting things to 
say about statistics and mathematical models.

Coincidentally, the following piece just appeared in my in-box from 
forecasting expert Scott Armstrong: "Does statistical significance 
help you make better forecasts?"

Research findings should help to improve your decision-making and to 
simplify your life: Abolish tests of statistical significance from 
your decision making. Armstrong and Green have not found any evidence 
that such tests improve decision making. Indeed, they seem to create 
confusion and harm decision making. As a result, they have recently 
changed one of their guidelines for forecasters to read:

13.29    Do not use measures of statistical significance to assess a 
forecasting method or model.

Description:  Even when correctly applied, significance tests are 
dangerous. Statistical significance tests calculate the probability, 
assuming the analyst's null hypothesis is true, that relationships 
apparent in a sample of data are the result of chance variations that 
arose in selecting the sample. The probability that is calculated is 
affected by the size of the sample and the choice of null hypothesis. 
With large samples, even small differences from what would be 
expected in the data if the null hypothesis were true will be 
"statistically significant." Choosing a different null hypothesis can 
change the conclusion. Statistical significance tests do not provide 
useful information on material significance or importance. Moreover, 
the tests are blind to common problems such as non-response error, 
and response error. The proper approach to analyzing and 
communicating findings from empirical studies is to (1) calculate and 
report effect sizes; (2) estimate the range within which the actual 
effect size is likely to lie by taking account of prior knowledge and 
all potential sources of error in measuring the effect; and (3) 
conduct replications, extensions, and meta-analyses.

Purpose:  To avoid the selection of invalid models or methods, and 
the rejection of valid ones.

Conditions:  There are no empirically demonstrated conditions on this 
principle. Statistical significance tests should not be used unless 
it can be shown that the measures provide a net benefit in the 
situation under consideration.

Strength of evidence: Strong logical support and non-experimental 
evidence. There are many examples showing how significance testing 
has harmed decision-making. Despite repeated appeals for evidence 
that statistical significance tests can improve decisions, none has 
been forthcoming. Tests of statistical significance run contrary to 
the proper purpose of statisticswhich is to help users make sense of 
data. Experimental studies are needed to identify the conditions, if 
any, under which tests of statistical significance can improve decision-making.

Source of evidence:
Armstrong, J. S. (2007). Significance tests harm progress in 
forecasting<http://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/documents/research/StatSigIJF361.pdf>. 
International Journal of Forecasting, 23, 321-336, with commentary 
and a reply. Hauer, E. (2004). The harm done by tests of statistical 
significance<http://tinyurl.com/Hauer2004Harm>. Accident Analysis and 
Prevention, 36, 495-500. Hubbard, R. & Armstrong J. S. (2006). Why we 
don't really know what 'statistical significance' means: a major 
educational 
failure<http://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/ideas/pdf/Armstrong/StatisticalSignificance.pdf>. 
Journal of Marketing Education, 28, 114-120 Hunter, J.E. & Schmidt, 
F. L. (1996). Cumulative research knowledge and social policy 
formulation: The critical role of 
meta-analysis<http://conium.org/~maccoun/PP279_Hunter.pdf>. 
Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, 2, 324-347. Ziliak, S. T. & 
McCloskey, D. N. (2008). The cult of statistical significance: How 
the standard error costs us jobs, justice, and 
lives<http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Statistical-Significance-Economics-Cognition/dp/0472050079>. 
Ann Arbor, MI: University of Michigan Press.

J. Scott Armstrong
Dept. of Marketing
The Wharton School
U. of Pennsylvania
Phila., PA 19104 
armstrong at wharton.upenn.edu<mailto:armstrong at wharton.upenn.edu>





From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr  2 06:01:31 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 23:01:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Statistical significance
In-Reply-To: <201004020438.o324cuwX017306@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201004020438.o324cuwX017306@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <A4757B37F4124FAB952AE7522E770729@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Max More
> Subject: [ExI] Statistical significance
> 
> spike: Have you read Taleb's Black Swan? He has interesting 
> things to say about statistics and mathematical models...

Thanks, no I had never heard of him, but I will check it out.

> Coincidentally, the following piece just appeared in my 
> in-box from forecasting expert Scott Armstrong: "Does 
> statistical significance help you make better forecasts?"

Hadn't heard of him either, but Scott Armstrong definitely said it better
than I did, and reinforced what I have seen way too often: the shortcut of 2
sigma has done far more harm than good, and has resulted in far too many
scientists and engineers who can't extract a subtle signal from the noise,
because they have not been property taught how to recognize noise.  I am not
pointing fingers: it took me years to learn this, with many mistakes along
the way, and the textbooks were of little help.

> Research findings should help to improve your decision-making 
> and to simplify your life: Abolish tests of statistical 
> significance from your decision making...

Or rather: in every case, 1) calculate the number of sigma from the mean
each data set varies from the null hypothesis and 2) think what it means if
it falls short of 95%, and 3) very important please, think of all the
different possible ways to frame the null hypothesis.  THINK!  There really
is a number of different ways to do it, and some make more sense than
others.  How you ask the question has everything to do with the answer you
get.

> Armstrong and Green 
> have not found any evidence that such tests improve decision 
> making. Indeed, they seem to create confusion and harm 
> decision making...

Oh my, how well I can verify that comment.  I have seen it a hundred times.
The data can't talk to us unless we recognize its voice.  

>... As a result, they have recently changed one 
> of their guidelines for forecasters to read:
> 
> 13.29    Do not use measures of statistical significance to assess a 
> forecasting method or model...

Max you are a university professor, ja?  This is a real problem, and it is
directly traceable to statistics teaching methods, and traditional teaching
constraints in general.  We have worked our way into a situation where all
the classroom material must be broken down into testable skills, so it
encourages memorization of algorithms, while functionally discouraging
actual thought.  The harm is clear in the field of statistics.

I really started to understand this five years ago when I was taking a
spacecraft feedback controls class at the U.  The final was a take-home, all
materials open, all resources open, one week to do it.  My wife and I each
used over 50 hours to do that exam, taking a couple days off of work.  Four
problems: choose any one and solve it.  My test writeup was over 80 pages,
Shelly's was a little longer.  It occurred to me then that this is actually
the right way to do engineering education and test competence, for it
encouraged creative problem solving, rather than memorization of shortcuts
and misleading oversimplifications such as the traditional 95%ile criterion
for statistical significance.

> Description:  Even when correctly applied, significance tests 
> are dangerous...

Armstrong says it better than I did, in fewer words.

> Statistical significance tests calculate the 
> probability, assuming the analyst's null hypothesis is true...

Ja, critical point: there is more than one logical way to frame the null
hypothesis.  We are taught how docs test new medications.  The null there is
that this new stuff does nothing to treat this disease.  But seldom do
engineering problems reduce so neatly to a single logical null.

> ...The proper approach to analyzing and 
> communicating findings from empirical studies is to (1) 
> calculate and report effect sizes; (2) estimate the range 
> within which the actual effect size is likely to lie by 
> taking account of prior knowledge and all potential sources 
> of error in measuring the effect; and (3) conduct 
> replications, extensions, and meta-analyses...

Oooh this gets me turned on.  Thanks for the reference.

> Purpose:  To avoid the selection of invalid models or 
> methods, and the rejection of valid ones...

Excellent!

> 
> ...
> 
> J. Scott Armstrong
> Dept. of Marketing
> The Wharton School
> U. of Pennsylvania
> Phila., PA 19104
> armstrong at wharton.upenn.edu<mailto:armstrong at wharton.upenn.edu>

Department of Marketing?  Indeed?  Isn't that where they get people to buy
stuff?  Shame on the engineering departments and math departments
everywhere, SHAME!  We get a guy from the department where they teach how to
make funny superbowl commercials, and they are the ones who point the way to
do science better?  Where are the rigorous bigshots from the math
department?  Where are the tough as nails engineering profs?  Why aren't
they taking the lead?  Am I misunderstanding what is the department of
marketing?  Suddenly I have new respect for that discipline.

I have half a mind to contact J. Scott Armstrong and congratulate him for
his breatkthru insights, forward this whole discussion and wish him well.
Max is Prof. Armstrong a buddy of yours?

spike




 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 09:53:25 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:53:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
Message-ID: <t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/2 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> New federal standards for fuel economy in cars:
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/01/obama-administration-releases-new-fuel-efficiency-rules/
>
> The big talk is about how much more dangerous these tiny cars will be,
> however the criteria upon which the numbers are based seem to have?at least
> two?obvious?systematic errors.? They go on and on about how the occupants of
> the tiny cars are more likely to die in a collision, but it looks to me like
> they fail to account for the fact that the smaller cars are slower, so they
> should not just rely on the standard 60 mph head-on into a barrier.? Perhaps
> they should equate standard modern Detroits at 60 with the future microcars
> at 45.
>
> Second, the presence of the tiny cars makes it safer for?everyone who
> does?not drive them.? If some drunken prole hits me?while I am
> driving?Mister Lincoln, she is more likely to perish, but I am less likely
> to do so, or even to suffer severe injury.? That?seems like?at least a
> break-even?safety-wise.

Mmhhh. Here in Europe big cars invariably have a max speed of 250
km/h. OTOH, they are never driven at such speed, so that they are
often slower than small cars, their own max speed exceeding anyway the
legal limit by far, owing to traffic or road conditions.

At the same time, small cars bring around less sheer mass, but not
only are they inherently less safe for their occupants, but are also
obviously more prone to loss of controls at an equivalent speed
(wheels, brakes, etc.).

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Apr  2 13:17:41 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:17:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Call for Papers: Technological Singularity &
	Acceleration Studies
In-Reply-To: <x2h8760b3f21004020605i5d4e387dw6dd3725979575066@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3458f071-9818-4471-8939-0806a763ce94@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>
	<x2h8760b3f21004020605i5d4e387dw6dd3725979575066@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2q55ad6af71004020617q4acf1e56h4d44555a9dec8ca3@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Joshua Fox <joshuatfox at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 7:05 AM
Subject: [singularity] Call for Papers: Technological Singularity &
Acceleration Studies
To: singularity <singularity at v2.listbox.com>


A call for papers from Prof. Amnon Eden.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Amnon <eden at essex.ac.uk>


TOPIC

Call for Papers: Technological Singularity & Acceleration Studies

Additional Details

http://freethoughtsweb.blogspot.com/2010/04/technological-singularity-and.html

Track in:

8th European conference on Computing And Philosophy ? ECAP 2010
Technische Universit?t M?nchen
4?6 October 2010
http://www.cvl-a.de/ecap10

Important dates:

? Submission (extended abstracts): 7 May 2010
? ECAP Conference: 4?6 October 2010

Submission form: http://www.cvl-a.de/ecap10/downloads/contribution-ecap10.pdf


THEME

Historical analysis of a broad range of paradigm shifts in science,
biology, history, technology, and in particular in computing
technology, suggests an accelerating rate of evolution, however
measured. ?John von Neumann projected that the consequence of this
trend may be an ?essential singularity in the history of the race
beyond which human affairs as we know them could not continue?. ?This
notion of singularity coincides in time and nature with Alan Turing
(1950) and Stephen Hawking's (1998) expectation of machines to exhibit
intelligence on a par with to the average human no later than 2050.
Irving John Good (1965) and Vernor Vinge (1993) expect the singularity
to take the form of an 'intelligence explosion', a process in which
intelligent machines design ever more intelligent machines.
Transhumanists suggest a parallel or alternative, explosive process of
improvements in human intelligence. ?And Alvin Toffler's Third Wave
(1980) forecasts "a collision point in human destiny" the scale of
which, in the course of history, is on the par only with the
agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution.

We invite submissions describing systematic attempts at understanding
the likelihood and nature of these projections. ?In particular, we
welcome papers critically analyzing the following issues from a
philosophical, computational, mathematical, scientific and ethical
standpoints:

* Claims and evidence to acceleration
* Technological predictions (critical analysis of past and future)
* The nature of an intelligence explosion and its possible outcomes
* The nature of the Technological Singularity and its outcome
* Safe and unsafe artificial general intelligence and preventative
measures
* Technological forecasts of computing phenomena and their projected
impact
* Beyond the ?event horizon? of the Technological Singularity
* The prospects of various transhuman breakthroughs and likely
timeframes

Amnon H. Eden, School of Computer Science & Electronic Engineering,
University of Essex, UK and Center For Inquiry, Amherst NY (eden-at-
essex-dot-ac-dot-uk)

--
singularity | Archives | Modify Your Subscription


--
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr  2 15:50:34 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:50:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] honey did you put the cat out?
Message-ID: <19EAE8E6721F4114B6A6B9DB4ED5DDEA@spike>

This gives the question an entirely new meaning:
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/787883--b-c-minister-s-cat-catche
s-fire-during-earth-hour?bn=1
 
{8^D
 
spike
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  2 15:34:50 2010
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] mersenne primes again
In-Reply-To: <746F4873185746DF994AFE06597906DC@spike>
Message-ID: <147621.83576.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 4/1/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> G, I get your point: using Drake style reasoning, it is
> impossible to get the number of expected extra-terrestrial 
> civilizations to go to zero, and using that line of reasoning 
> also prevents getting the number of power-failure babies to go 
> to zero.? In that sense the line of reasoning itself is suspect, 
> agreed.? On the other hand, if we do Drake-style reasoning and 
> theorize 1 to 4 extra births per million, that signal isn't
> detectable either, using known statistical methods.?
> This demonstrates that our current methods of understanding what 
> we see are far from perfect, causing us to miss so much.

Yes but I fail to see why you consider Drake-style reasoning as an alternative to traditional hypothesis testing in the first place. 

I want to know, in our example, whether the power outage in actual fact had a positive affect on the birthrate. 

The Drake-like formula does not help me answer that question. It only generates a probable number of anomalous births based on the assumption that power outages increase birthrates. I still need conventional statistics to tell me with what degree of confidence I can hold that assumption. 

-gts






      



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Apr  2 15:50:51 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:50:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI]  AI & education
In-Reply-To: <A4757B37F4124FAB952AE7522E770729@spike>
Message-ID: <149791.12694.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 4/1/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> We have worked our way into a
> situation where all
> the classroom material must be broken down into testable
> skills, so it
> encourages memorization of algorithms, while functionally
> discouraging
> actual thought.

A thought: for decades (possibly over a century by now),
people have redefined the boundaries of what counts as
"artificial intelligence", primarily based on what computers
were able to do.

Logic?  Computers can do that better than humans, so that is
not really artificial intelligence.

Math?  Computers can do that better than humans, so that is
not really artificial intelligence.

Chess?  Computers can do that better than humans, so that is
not really artificial intelligence.

Art?  Maybe, but computers have been making progress in
understanding that.  Take animation, for example: creating
the frames in between keyframes is obviously mechanical
and left to computers at most professional studios these
days, but it is believed to take true intelligence to make
those keyframes.

And so on.  Now, what is "actual thought"?

Logic?  That can be reduced to tests and memorization of
algorithms, so that is not actual thought.

Math?  That can be reduced to tests and memorization of
algorithms, so that is not actual thought.

Chess?  That can be reduced to tests and memorization of
algorithms, so that is not actual thought.

Art?  Maybe, but testing has been making progress in
quantifying that.  Take animation, for example: creating
the frames in between keyframes is obviously mechanical
and left to computers at most professional studios these
days, but it is believed to take actual thought to make
those keyframes.

That point aside - without those tests, how do we know how
effective a teacher (or school) is?  There arose a need to
measure this, after many blatantly obvious but anecdotal
examples came to light for decades.  Without measurement,
there can not be fair judgment to say that this teacher is
effective while this other one is not.  With measurement,
the worst of this inequity has started to be identified,
and corrective measures taken.  (Granted, this measurement
needs to take into account factors like the ability and
willingness of the students to learn, which in turn is
affected by things like their home environment.  These
factors can be identified and controlled for, and do not
counter the basic point.)  Yes, there is an element of
"for the children", which is often used to camouflage
moral panics that do not actually help children - but this
movement seems to be directly benefiting them.

> I really started to understand this five years ago when I
> was taking a
> spacecraft feedback controls class at the U.? The
> final was a take-home, all
> materials open, all resources open, one week to do
> it.? My wife and I each
> used over 50 hours to do that exam, taking a couple days
> off of work.? Four
> problems: choose any one and solve it.? My test
> writeup was over 80 pages,
> Shelly's was a little longer.? It occurred to me then
> that this is actually
> the right way to do engineering education and test
> competence, for it
> encouraged creative problem solving, rather than
> memorization of shortcuts
> and misleading oversimplifications such as the traditional
> 95%ile criterion
> for statistical significance.

And there's the rub: how do we quantify creativity?  There
are ways to do even that.  Perhaps those ways need to be
better defined and more widely applied.  But then creativity,
or at least that portion of it that is thereby routinely
tested, would no longer be actual thought, would it?



From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 12:51:57 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 08:51:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> At the same time, small cars bring around less sheer mass, but not
> only are they inherently less safe for their occupants, but are also
> obviously more prone to loss of controls at an equivalent speed
> (wheels, brakes, etc.).

Say what? What's "obvious" about that?

-Dave


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 11:20:03 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:20:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Are we actors in transcendent films?
Message-ID: <t2qe68fc1101004040420x38570206haf494421fad4bafc@mail.gmail.com>

Some fun thoughts FYC:

Are we actors in transcendent films?

http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/04/are-we-actors-in-transcendent-films.html

Yesterday I was watching a good historic film, and I thought that
perhaps this is the reason why transcendent post-humans may bother to
simulate us (see the previous post): for the same reason why we enjoy
historic novels and films.

Films now permit only passive watching from an external point of view,
and offer only very limited clues on the thoughts and mental states of
the characters (books are much better in this respect). But
films-as-we-know-them will probably be replaced by full sensory and
mental experiences indistinguishable from reality. For example:

First, films will use full 3D virtual reality technology to permit
viewers moving in the scene (like live plays where the public can walk
in the scene).

Second, once VR technology becomes fully immersive with full sensory
stimulation, films may become indistinguishable from reality, but
viewers will still know that they are watching a movie.

Then, viewers may have the option to "become" the characters,
forgetting their primary lives and adopting the points of view of the
characters, with their own scripted thoughts, memories and emotions.

And ultimately, the characters themselves may become fully autonomous
and conscious entities, able to provide endless hours of entertainment
to viewers by becoming different versions of themselves in different
versions of the film's simulated reality. Are quantum many-worlds
special effects?

So if you wanted to be a Hollywood star... perhaps you are one, acting
within an entertainment simulation run by a Transcendent Mind. Perhaps
if you do it well the Mind will copy you to other films.


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 16:23:03 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 10:23:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
Message-ID: <t2ga6a17bd41004040923w8dd8f326lfef8b285310aea42@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/1 spike <spike66 at att.net>:

> The big talk is about how much more dangerous these tiny cars will be,


Are you certain, Spike that you are not just expressing the inherent
red white and blue bias for "more vroom vroom is better"?  Isn't it
trivially obvious that a guy on a moped is outmatched by an eighteen
wheeler loaded down with rebar and cement blocks?  This is so
yesterday.

Google up "cars that drive themselves".   I've been waiting forever
for this.  I'm one of the worst drivers in the world, primarily
because I hate driving.  I have better things to do with my synaptic
resources, and cannot -- will not -- maintain the level of attention
to my driving that  maximizes safety for myself and my fellow
travelers.   I've been waiting for automatic lane centering ever since
I came to love cruise control.  It can't come too soon.  Naturally,
front and back automatic anti-collision capability will be a very high
priority.  And this is just the "hardly smart at all" easy stuff that
the Stanford winners of the Darpa Challenge have long since left
behind in a literal cloud of dust.

And with apologies to the "you'll never take my steering wheel away
until you pry it from my cold, dead hands" crowd, I would point out
that the vast reduction in deaths and injuries -- the vast improvement
in safety -- that will result from automated driving would be
compelling enough all by itself, but when you add the giant heaps of
money saved,... well, the writing is on the wall, "Auto-Chauffeur" is
on the way.

No doubt you will say "They can take our lives, but they can never
take our freedom!!!!!"  and insist on the right to manual control.
Fine.  But you'll have to pay for it.   Your insurance rate for
driving time in manual mode will be way high, and who knows what other
restrictions will be placed on someone with so little regard for the
safety and convenience of his (and it will most certainly be a guy)
fellow travelers.

YMMV. ;-}

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                         Ray Charles


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 16:32:24 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:32:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <t2ga6a17bd41004040923w8dd8f326lfef8b285310aea42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2ga6a17bd41004040923w8dd8f326lfef8b285310aea42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <u2jee50357e1004040932kd052c395v9c7c2b348483ba8a@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/4/10, Jeff Davis wrote:
<snip>
>  And with apologies to the "you'll never take my steering wheel away
>  until you pry it from my cold, dead hands" crowd, I would point out
>  that the vast reduction in deaths and injuries -- the vast improvement
>  in safety -- that will result from automated driving would be
>  compelling enough all by itself, but when you add the giant heaps of
>  money saved,... well, the writing is on the wall, "Auto-Chauffeur" is
>  on the way.
>
>  No doubt you will say "They can take our lives, but they can never
>  take our freedom!!!!!"  and insist on the right to manual control.
>  Fine.  But you'll have to pay for it.   Your insurance rate for
>  driving time in manual mode will be way high, and who knows what other
>  restrictions will be placed on someone with so little regard for the
>  safety and convenience of his (and it will most certainly be a guy)
>  fellow travelers.
>
>  YMMV. ;-}
>
>


You know the country has gone to the dogs and been taken over by
namby-pamby socialists when they try to stop a guy doing a rollover in
his SUV on the way home from the bar.

You'd never see John Wayne riding an electric moped, would you?


BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 16:44:35 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:44:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <1C02CC6E-59F4-4902-810F-29F8AED866F1@metacannon.net>
References: <t2qe68fc1101004040420x38570206haf494421fad4bafc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1C02CC6E-59F4-4902-810F-29F8AED866F1@metacannon.net>
Message-ID: <o2he68fc1101004040944u8f784f49r9ca71ba02b305c7b@mail.gmail.com>

Right, plus many other motivations that we would not be able to understand.

One point where I don't completely agree is "the creators are more
benevolent than us". Sounds kind of reasonable... but not necessary.
And from our daily experience we know that intelligence does not
necessarily correlates with benevolence.

G.

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net> wrote:
> Similarly, we can extrapolate from other creative acts in which we now
> engage. For example, perhaps we are a research project, one among many
> worlds in aggregation to assist with predicting the future of our creators'
> world. Perhaps our world is analogous to a child-rearing project, engaged in
> for reasons like those for which we engage in raising children ourselves.
> One thing that is highly probable, no matter the motivation, is that the
> creators (if they exist) are more benevolent than us; otherwise, the
> probably would not have survived the acquisition of powers that would
> accompany the ability to create a world like ours.
>
> On Apr 4, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some fun thoughts FYC:
>>
>> Are we actors in transcendent films?
>>
>>
>> http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/04/are-we-actors-in-transcendent-films.html
>>
>> Yesterday I was watching a good historic film, and I thought that
>> perhaps this is the reason why transcendent post-humans may bother to
>> simulate us (see the previous post): for the same reason why we enjoy
>> historic novels and films.
>>
>> Films now permit only passive watching from an external point of view,
>> and offer only very limited clues on the thoughts and mental states of
>> the characters (books are much better in this respect). But
>> films-as-we-know-them will probably be replaced by full sensory and
>> mental experiences indistinguishable from reality. For example:
>>
>> First, films will use full 3D virtual reality technology to permit
>> viewers moving in the scene (like live plays where the public can walk
>> in the scene).
>>
>> Second, once VR technology becomes fully immersive with full sensory
>> stimulation, films may become indistinguishable from reality, but
>> viewers will still know that they are watching a movie.
>>
>> Then, viewers may have the option to "become" the characters,
>> forgetting their primary lives and adopting the points of view of the
>> characters, with their own scripted thoughts, memories and emotions.
>>
>> And ultimately, the characters themselves may become fully autonomous
>> and conscious entities, able to provide endless hours of entertainment
>> to viewers by becoming different versions of themselves in different
>> versions of the film's simulated reality. Are quantum many-worlds
>> special effects?
>>
>> So if you wanted to be a Hollywood star... perhaps you are one, acting
>> within an entertainment simulation run by a Transcendent Mind. Perhaps
>> if you do it well the Mind will copy you to other films.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 16:56:14 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:56:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <o2he68fc1101004040944u8f784f49r9ca71ba02b305c7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2qe68fc1101004040420x38570206haf494421fad4bafc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1C02CC6E-59F4-4902-810F-29F8AED866F1@metacannon.net>
	<o2he68fc1101004040944u8f784f49r9ca71ba02b305c7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2nee50357e1004040956h662f30b0qdf574c92206d775b@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/4/10, Giulio Prisco  wrote:
> Right, plus many other motivations that we would not be able to understand.
>
>  One point where I don't completely agree is "the creators are more
>  benevolent than us". Sounds kind of reasonable... but not necessary.
>  And from our daily experience we know that intelligence does not
>  necessarily correlates with benevolence.
>
>


???
Surely the main problem with benevolent creators is the amount of
sheer savagery, pain and suffering in this world?

Evolution is driven by the deaths of billions of creatures, humans included.

BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 18:17:20 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 20:17:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <C8F3C3A3-D91A-4311-BA95-A93D5278022C@metacannon.net>
References: <t2qe68fc1101004040420x38570206haf494421fad4bafc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1C02CC6E-59F4-4902-810F-29F8AED866F1@metacannon.net>
	<o2he68fc1101004040944u8f784f49r9ca71ba02b305c7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C8F3C3A3-D91A-4311-BA95-A93D5278022C@metacannon.net>
Message-ID: <u2ge68fc1101004041117m6025c0d4n32634dd95c38a37f@mail.gmail.com>

What I see, is destructive capacity advancing much faster than
defensive capacity, at both technological and societal levels. I don't
like that, but it is what I see. And I agree that our continued
survival will require balancing the development rates of destructive
and defensive capacities.

But I don't see why this must require increased benevolence.

I certainly _hope_ that future advanced civilizations will be more
benevolent than ours, but I don't think we can prove it.

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net> wrote:
> Giulio, I'd like to explore this further with you. Do you believe our
> civilization will continue to advance faster in destructive than defensive
> capacity? If so, to what would you attribute our continued survival
> (assuming we survive the increasing disparity)?
>
> On Apr 4, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Right, plus many other motivations that we would not be able to
>> understand.
>>
>> One point where I don't completely agree is "the creators are more
>> benevolent than us". Sounds kind of reasonable... but not necessary.
>> And from our daily experience we know that intelligence does not
>> necessarily correlates with benevolence.
>>
>> G.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Similarly, we can extrapolate from other creative acts in which we now
>>> engage. For example, perhaps we are a research project, one among many
>>> worlds in aggregation to assist with predicting the future of our
>>> creators'
>>> world. Perhaps our world is analogous to a child-rearing project, engaged
>>> in
>>> for reasons like those for which we engage in raising children ourselves.
>>> One thing that is highly probable, no matter the motivation, is that the
>>> creators (if they exist) are more benevolent than us; otherwise, the
>>> probably would not have survived the acquisition of powers that would
>>> accompany the ability to create a world like ours.
>>>
>>> On Apr 4, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some fun thoughts FYC:
>>>>
>>>> Are we actors in transcendent films?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/04/are-we-actors-in-transcendent-films.html
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday I was watching a good historic film, and I thought that
>>>> perhaps this is the reason why transcendent post-humans may bother to
>>>> simulate us (see the previous post): for the same reason why we enjoy
>>>> historic novels and films.
>>>>
>>>> Films now permit only passive watching from an external point of view,
>>>> and offer only very limited clues on the thoughts and mental states of
>>>> the characters (books are much better in this respect). But
>>>> films-as-we-know-them will probably be replaced by full sensory and
>>>> mental experiences indistinguishable from reality. For example:
>>>>
>>>> First, films will use full 3D virtual reality technology to permit
>>>> viewers moving in the scene (like live plays where the public can walk
>>>> in the scene).
>>>>
>>>> Second, once VR technology becomes fully immersive with full sensory
>>>> stimulation, films may become indistinguishable from reality, but
>>>> viewers will still know that they are watching a movie.
>>>>
>>>> Then, viewers may have the option to "become" the characters,
>>>> forgetting their primary lives and adopting the points of view of the
>>>> characters, with their own scripted thoughts, memories and emotions.
>>>>
>>>> And ultimately, the characters themselves may become fully autonomous
>>>> and conscious entities, able to provide endless hours of entertainment
>>>> to viewers by becoming different versions of themselves in different
>>>> versions of the film's simulated reality. Are quantum many-worlds
>>>> special effects?
>>>>
>>>> So if you wanted to be a Hollywood star... perhaps you are one, acting
>>>> within an entertainment simulation run by a Transcendent Mind. Perhaps
>>>> if you do it well the Mind will copy you to other films.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups
>>>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>
>


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  4 19:04:59 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 12:04:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.263.1270399484.17873.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <589724.74577.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:


> Some fun thoughts FYC:
> 
> Are we actors in transcendent films?
> 
> Yesterday I was watching a good historic film, and I
> thought that
> perhaps this is the reason why transcendent post-humans may
> bother to
> simulate us (see the previous post): for the same reason
> why we enjoy
> historic novels and films.
> 
> Films now permit only passive watching from an external
> point of view,
> and offer only very limited clues on the thoughts and
> mental states of
> the characters (books are much better in this respect).
> But
> films-as-we-know-them will probably be replaced by full
> sensory and
> mental experiences indistinguishable from reality. For
> example:
> 
> First, films will use full 3D virtual reality technology to
> permit
> viewers moving in the scene (like live plays where the
> public can walk
> in the scene).
> 
> Second, once VR technology becomes fully immersive with
> full sensory
> stimulation, films may become indistinguishable from
> reality, but
> viewers will still know that they are watching a movie.
> 
> Then, viewers may have the option to "become" the
> characters,
> forgetting their primary lives and adopting the points of
> view of the
> characters, with their own scripted thoughts, memories and
> emotions.
> 
> And ultimately, the characters themselves may become fully
> autonomous
> and conscious entities, able to provide endless hours of
> entertainment
> to viewers by becoming different versions of themselves in
> different
> versions of the film's simulated reality. Are quantum
> many-worlds
> special effects?

Oh, wow, so we may all (or most of us anyway) be NPCs*?
Sobering thought.

Also, makes sense, given the way some people behave.

Ben Zaiboc

* Non-Player Characters


      



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Apr  4 19:51:11 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 14:51:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <589724.74577.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <589724.74577.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BB8EDAF.4030804@satx.rr.com>

On 4/4/2010 2:04 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> Oh, wow, so we may all (or most of us anyway) be NPCs*?
> Sobering thought.

> * Non-Player Characters

See Fritz Leiber's novel THE SINFUL ONES (1950, later somewhat revised, 
with better sex scenes; aka YOU'RE ALL ALONE).



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  4 23:33:49 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 16:33:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <l2nee50357e1004040956h662f30b0qdf574c92206d775b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2qe68fc1101004040420x38570206haf494421fad4bafc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1C02CC6E-59F4-4902-810F-29F8AED866F1@metacannon.net>
	<o2he68fc1101004040944u8f784f49r9ca71ba02b305c7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2nee50357e1004040956h662f30b0qdf574c92206d775b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4363D8E7-D03F-47E1-B493-63547BEB04EA@mac.com>


On Apr 4, 2010, at 9:56 AM, BillK wrote:

> On 4/4/10, Giulio Prisco  wrote:
>> Right, plus many other motivations that we would not be able to understand.
>> 
>> One point where I don't completely agree is "the creators are more
>> benevolent than us". Sounds kind of reasonable... but not necessary.
>> And from our daily experience we know that intelligence does not
>> necessarily correlates with benevolence.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ???
> Surely the main problem with benevolent creators is the amount of
> sheer savagery, pain and suffering in this world?
> 
> Evolution is driven by the deaths of billions of creatures, humans included.
> 

Is it the main problem?  For all I know the creators see the suffering we experience to be essential to the sim or our level of evolution.  In an historical sim especially knowing all that actually happened, reproducing it all in full detail would by its very nature be to reproduce the suffering experience also.   If the sim creators are benevolent then any actual new beings created or the copies of old beings will be able to evolve/improve tech and themselves over time beyond the point of such suffering.   Techno-reincarnation?    

The suffering is from the limited viewpoint of beings fully immersed within the sim.  It is not the end of he story or even that terribly important - not like it appears from within it at all.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr  4 23:37:47 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 16:37:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <u2ge68fc1101004041117m6025c0d4n32634dd95c38a37f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2qe68fc1101004040420x38570206haf494421fad4bafc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1C02CC6E-59F4-4902-810F-29F8AED866F1@metacannon.net>
	<o2he68fc1101004040944u8f784f49r9ca71ba02b305c7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C8F3C3A3-D91A-4311-BA95-A93D5278022C@metacannon.net>
	<u2ge68fc1101004041117m6025c0d4n32634dd95c38a37f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2666EEC5-C061-4507-AD97-3487076E8E8B@mac.com>


On Apr 4, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote:

> What I see, is destructive capacity advancing much faster than
> defensive capacity, at both technological and societal levels. I don't
> like that, but it is what I see. And I agree that our continued
> survival will require balancing the development rates of destructive
> and defensive capacities.

I don't think whether we make it or not is primarily about destructive or defensive capacity.  I think it is more about how we ourselves change, how our consciousness and vision shifts, to one that can have all these abilities that can be used for so much good or ill, with greatest likelihood of good. 

> 
> But I don't see why this must require increased benevolence.
> 

I think it is a selection process.  Those species who reach this point and do not develop large scale inter-being benevolence tend to not make it.    They destroy themselves in increasing warfare and oppressive regimes. 

> I certainly _hope_ that future advanced civilizations will be more
> benevolent than ours, but I don't think we can prove it.

I think we can make a reasonable argument that more benevolent civilizations are much more likely to survive the acquisition of godlike powers.

- samantha




> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net> wrote:
>> Giulio, I'd like to explore this further with you. Do you believe our
>> civilization will continue to advance faster in destructive than defensive
>> capacity? If so, to what would you attribute our continued survival
>> (assuming we survive the increasing disparity)?
>> 
>> On Apr 4, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Right, plus many other motivations that we would not be able to
>>> understand.
>>> 
>>> One point where I don't completely agree is "the creators are more
>>> benevolent than us". Sounds kind of reasonable... but not necessary.
>>> And from our daily experience we know that intelligence does not
>>> necessarily correlates with benevolence.
>>> 
>>> G.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Similarly, we can extrapolate from other creative acts in which we now
>>>> engage. For example, perhaps we are a research project, one among many
>>>> worlds in aggregation to assist with predicting the future of our
>>>> creators'
>>>> world. Perhaps our world is analogous to a child-rearing project, engaged
>>>> in
>>>> for reasons like those for which we engage in raising children ourselves.
>>>> One thing that is highly probable, no matter the motivation, is that the
>>>> creators (if they exist) are more benevolent than us; otherwise, the
>>>> probably would not have survived the acquisition of powers that would
>>>> accompany the ability to create a world like ours.
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 4, 2010, at 4:20 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Some fun thoughts FYC:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Are we actors in transcendent films?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/04/are-we-actors-in-transcendent-films.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yesterday I was watching a good historic film, and I thought that
>>>>> perhaps this is the reason why transcendent post-humans may bother to
>>>>> simulate us (see the previous post): for the same reason why we enjoy
>>>>> historic novels and films.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Films now permit only passive watching from an external point of view,
>>>>> and offer only very limited clues on the thoughts and mental states of
>>>>> the characters (books are much better in this respect). But
>>>>> films-as-we-know-them will probably be replaced by full sensory and
>>>>> mental experiences indistinguishable from reality. For example:
>>>>> 
>>>>> First, films will use full 3D virtual reality technology to permit
>>>>> viewers moving in the scene (like live plays where the public can walk
>>>>> in the scene).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Second, once VR technology becomes fully immersive with full sensory
>>>>> stimulation, films may become indistinguishable from reality, but
>>>>> viewers will still know that they are watching a movie.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then, viewers may have the option to "become" the characters,
>>>>> forgetting their primary lives and adopting the points of view of the
>>>>> characters, with their own scripted thoughts, memories and emotions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> And ultimately, the characters themselves may become fully autonomous
>>>>> and conscious entities, able to provide endless hours of entertainment
>>>>> to viewers by becoming different versions of themselves in different
>>>>> versions of the film's simulated reality. Are quantum many-worlds
>>>>> special effects?
>>>>> 
>>>>> So if you wanted to be a Hollywood star... perhaps you are one, acting
>>>>> within an entertainment simulation run by a Transcendent Mind. Perhaps
>>>>> if you do it well the Mind will copy you to other films.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups
>>>>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism?hl=en.
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 03:10:53 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 23:10:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Are we actors in transcendent films?
In-Reply-To: <4363D8E7-D03F-47E1-B493-63547BEB04EA@mac.com>
References: <t2qe68fc1101004040420x38570206haf494421fad4bafc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1C02CC6E-59F4-4902-810F-29F8AED866F1@metacannon.net>
	<o2he68fc1101004040944u8f784f49r9ca71ba02b305c7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2nee50357e1004040956h662f30b0qdf574c92206d775b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4363D8E7-D03F-47E1-B493-63547BEB04EA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <x2t62c14241004042010ge914b593qa2c5f6999a2e8396@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 4, 2010, at 9:56 AM, BillK wrote:
>> Evolution is driven by the deaths of billions of creatures, humans included.
>
> Is it the main problem? ?For all I know the creators see the suffering we experience to be essential to the sim or our level of evolution.

Evolution requires some form of selection pressure.  Perhaps the point
of suffering is to make it stop.  We'll evolve and realize a new kind
of suffering to end.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr  5 03:11:12 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 20:11:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <t2ga6a17bd41004040923w8dd8f326lfef8b285310aea42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2ga6a17bd41004040923w8dd8f326lfef8b285310aea42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F76C248AFF54C02845C4C3359815AAB@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
> Subject: Re: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
> 
> 2010/4/1 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> 
> > The big talk is about how much more dangerous these tiny 
> cars will be,
> 
> 
> Are you certain, Spike that you are not just expressing the 
> inherent red white and blue bias for "more vroom vroom is 
> better"? ...

Hmmm, not really, rather I am saying something that is almost opposite of
this.  I am saying there seems to be a systematic error in the contention
that smaller cars will result in more death and injury.  I contend that
smaller cars will improve safety for those who do not drive them, and that
we shouldn't use the same standards for both because smaller lighter cars
are slower.

This came to mind for me because as new CAF? standards do not really impact
me directly: I can likely keep Mister Lincoln running for the next twenty to
forty years.  But it benefits me if a lot of the other proles are driving
minicars.  Of course it presents a marketing problem worthy of Professor J.
Scott Armstrong, to figure out a way to sell these tiny cars: 

	...If you drive this eco-friendly device, the drunken prole who rams
into you is far less likely to be injured or seriously killed...

	...Don't worry if it is a little slower, just leave earlier...

These might be difficult to sell, but it really is just fine with me if the
other proles drive them.  As I have contended here before, our current
Detroits are waaay bigger than they need to be for what they most often do:
haul a single ape.  Almost all cars sold today have four seats, but when is
the last time you saw four adults in one?  Seldom.  Big families, sure, but
we have minivans for that purpose.  Most passenger cars could do just fine
with two seats or even one.

... 
> Google up "cars that drive themselves".   I've been waiting forever
> for this...

Jeff, I do fear this isn't going to happen.  It isn't because of the
technological difficulty, but rather the legal one.  If a self-driver gets
into an accident not its fault, who gets sued?  The manufacturer of the
self-driver probably.  See why they are not working seriously on this?

>... well, the writing is on the wall, "Auto-Chauffeur" 
> is on the way...

I agree it would be way cool, disagree it is on the way.  I am betting
against seeing it in our lifetimes.

> No doubt you will say "They can take our lives, but they can 
> never take our freedom!!!!!"  and insist on the right to 
> manual control. Fine.  But you'll have to pay for it...Jeff Davis

Hmmm, possibly, but consider Toyota's recent experience.  They are facing
grave danger of huge lawsuits, even tho there may be nothing wrong with
their products.

I could imagine highway lawsuit lottery players going around looking for
cars driving themselves, then intentionally pulling over into them.  Two
lottery players working together, one on either side, smashing the
self-driver.  Then they would argue that a human driver would have
successfully avoided the accident, but if the manufacturer were to pay
generously this could all go away.

We have blocked robo-chauffer with our legal system I fear.

> Are you certain, Spike that you are not just expressing the 
> inherent red white and blue bias for "more vroom vroom is 
> better"? ...

Your earlier comment would work better had you said "...red, white and green
bias..."

Anyone who lives in Taxifornia knows what I mean by that comment.  Those
with red, white and green flags on their Detroits on Cinco de Mayo tend to
take their macho very seriously.  I could see how the CAF? standards could
be labeled racist.  

spike







From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr  5 03:54:29 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 20:54:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI & education
In-Reply-To: <149791.12694.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <A4757B37F4124FAB952AE7522E770729@spike>
	<149791.12694.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98E098AEFC5240339AF602FC9624D501@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: [ExI] AI & education
> 
> --- On Thu, 4/1/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > We have worked our way into a
> > situation where all
> > the classroom material must be broken down into testable 
> skills, so it 
> > encourages memorization of algorithms, while functionally 
> discouraging 
> > actual thought.
> 
> A thought: for decades (possibly over a century by now), 
> people have redefined the boundaries of what counts as 
> "artificial intelligence", primarily based on what computers 
> were able to do...

Adrian, good to see you posting here again bud, we missed you for a long
time.

Ja, I see I should probably have used instead of the term "thought" rather
"creation of insight."  I agree with your examples: we are accustomed to the
idea that thought is some necessarily mysterious thing that occurs in the
brain.  If it can be reduced to a closed form solution, a system of
equations or an algorithm, we should be able to generate and catalog every
possible thought, at which time there would be no new insight and all
problems would be theoretically solved.

> ...
> 
> That point aside - without those tests, how do we know how 
> effective a teacher (or school) is? ...

Dunno.  I am surely not the first one to realize that in some cases the way
things are being taught is doing more harm that good.  That being said, I
was presumptuous as hell to comment about the 95%ile confidence criterion.
My own statistics education is now tragically 30 years old, so it is likely
that this problem has been fixed that by now.

Please have we any college students here, or recent-ish grads who can tell
us, do the statistics profs and texts still give the 95%ile criterion for
statistical significance?

Here's a parting shot for your entertainment.  A colleague noticed a
correllation between two variables and started raising alarms that they were
cause and effect related.  Reasoning: the correllation coefficient between
them was about 96%.  It wasn't a statistical significance of 96%, but rather
the correllation coefficient.  Since that was greater than 95%, surely this
signal meant something important.  (!)

I ended up pointing out there are *plenty* of measurands that have
correllation coefficients greater than 95%, plenty, and we already know they
are not cause and effect related.  A textbook example would be whiskey sales
and the number of Baptist ministers in the state of Taxifornia.  Those
correllate better than 99%, but that doesn't mean that the ministers are
buying all that whiskey or that the whiskey is somehow causing the ministers
to pop into existence.  Another example is the one from my own misspent
youth, the 99% correllation coefficient between the number of telephone
poles and lung cancer cases in Florida.  This caused the theory to arise
that the poles, possibly the creosote in the poles, was causing lung cancer.
Eventually it was shown that both are an effect of a common cause: the
steadily increaing number of lungs in that state were driving both the lung
cancer cases and the number of telephone poles.

I eventually showed that the 96% correllation in my calleague's observation
were two effects of a common cause, but not until after much money and time
had been wasted for nothing, all because she convinced a lot of people that
a correllation coefficent of 96% is important.

spike






From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr  5 05:20:36 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 22:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <0F76C248AFF54C02845C4C3359815AAB@spike>
Message-ID: <576761.58329.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 4/4/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I could imagine highway lawsuit lottery players going
> around looking for
> cars driving themselves, then intentionally pulling over
> into them.? Two
> lottery players working together, one on either side,
> smashing the
> self-driver.? Then they would argue that a human
> driver would have
> successfully avoided the accident, but if the manufacturer
> were to pay
> generously this could all go away.

Counter: black boxes, similar to what Toyota has in its
Priuses today.  Note that one recent high profile case
who claimed to have a runaway Prius...until the black box
testified that the "stuck" accelerator was actually being
pressed, alternating with the brake pedal, over 250 times
in rapid succession.  Likewise here: the car wasn't doing
anything; the other guys smashed into it.  Might a human
driver have avoided it?  Doesn't make the pair who
smashed into it any less responsible - and thus, any less
on the hook for paying for damages/going to jail/etc.
The manufacturer, if anything, is the plaintiff in these
cases.



From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 11:28:36 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:28:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2iffd22f9d1004050428j5948f828kdf75d5feebbcd77a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> At the same time, small cars bring around less sheer mass, but not
>> only are they inherently less safe for their occupants, but are also
>> obviously more prone to loss of controls at an equivalent speed
>> (wheels, brakes, etc.).
>
> Say what? What's "obvious" about that?

No clarification? Too obvious?

Contrary to your assertion, less mass in a vehicle makes it more
controllable due to lower inertia.

-Dave


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  5 15:38:59 2010
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:38:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] AI & education
In-Reply-To: <98E098AEFC5240339AF602FC9624D501@spike>
Message-ID: <982754.8701.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 4/4/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Dunno.? I am surely not the first one to realize that
> in some cases the way things are being taught is doing more harm 
> that good.?That being said, I was presumptuous as hell to comment 
> about the 95%ile confidence criterion. My own statistics education is 
> now tragically 30 years old, so it is likely that this problem has 
> been fixed that by now.
> 
> Please have we any college students here, or recent-ish
> grads who can tell us, do the statistics profs and texts still 
> give the 95%ile criterion for statistical significance?

My education dates similarly to yours but I have it on good authority that statisticians (in the medical field at least) still routinely use p values of .05 for determining significance. Occasionally they use the equally arbitrary value of .01. I disagree with you, though, that this represents a real problem in need of fixing. Only a naive or poorly trained researcher would fail to realize the arbitrary nature of the particular value of p. 

Typically when results indicate something close to significance at the desired level, the researcher will state in his report that his results look interesting and suggest that the hypothesis under consideration merits further study. Subsequent studies, usually with larger samples, then serve to confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis. 

-gts




      



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 10:54:02 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:54:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 April 2010 14:51, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> but are also
>> obviously more prone to loss of controls at an equivalent speed
>> (wheels, brakes, etc.).
>
> Say what? What's "obvious" about that?

Mmhhh. At an equal speed, a Mercedes (which may be going at less than
half its cruise velocity) is much easier to control and to stop than a
full gas-launched Fiat, or for that matter a motorbyke.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 11:08:51 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:08:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com> 
	<g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 6:54 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3 April 2010 14:51, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 5:53 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> but are also
>>> obviously more prone to loss of controls at an equivalent speed
>>> (wheels, brakes, etc.).
>>
>> Say what? What's "obvious" about that?
>
> Mmhhh. At an equal speed, a Mercedes (which may be going at less than
> half its cruise velocity) is much easier to control and to stop than a
> full gas-launched Fiat, or for that matter a motorbyke.

All other things being equal, a 2000 pound car will accelerate faster,
stop faster, and handle better than a 3000 pound car. A clear example
of this is Formula 1 race cars: they have a minimum weight, and the
teams run the cars as close to that minimum as possible. Occasionally
a team will be penalized for an underweight car, but there's no
maximum weight.

Forget car/bike comparisons or luxury/economy car comparisons--they're
apples & oranges. The Merc has better tires/brakes/suspension than the
Fiat, which compensates somewhat for the weight disadvantage.

-Dave


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 11:26:58 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:26:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <k2iee50357e1004060426l399f94f3t3a1841280aa77782@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/6/10, Dave Sill wrote:
> All other things being equal, a 2000 pound car will accelerate faster,
>  stop faster, and handle better than a 3000 pound car. A clear example
>  of this is Formula 1 race cars: they have a minimum weight, and the
>  teams run the cars as close to that minimum as possible. Occasionally
>  a team will be penalized for an underweight car, but there's no
>  maximum weight.
>
>  Forget car/bike comparisons or luxury/economy car comparisons--they're
>  apples & oranges. The Merc has better tires/brakes/suspension than the
>  Fiat, which compensates somewhat for the weight disadvantage.
>
>


I think I 'm agreeing with you. ;)
There are just too many variables in real world cases to make a
general statement that big cars stop quicker. Sure, the Mercedes has
exceptional braking power but some big heavy cars take twice as long
to stop. Some small cars are cheap and nasty with poor quality brakes
and tyres, but some small, light cars can stop very quickly indeed.
And don't forget reaction time which is the same for all vehicles.

Maneuverability as well depends more on the design of the car rather
than the mass. Light racing / sports cars designed to grip the road
which also have significant down forces generated can turn with
g-forces that would upset ordinary drivers. Big cars would be sliding
uncontrollably in a similar turn

BillK


From max at maxmore.com  Tue Apr  6 15:55:22 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:55:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New, real-money futures market for movies
Message-ID: <201004061555.o36FtXLD004774@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

For idea futures enthusiasts: This would turn the existing Hollywood 
Stock Exchange into a real futures market...

Wall Street touts plans to bet on the box office
Film studios rally against two proposals that would create futures market
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36190857/ns/business-media_biz/

Max



From max at maxmore.com  Tue Apr  6 15:42:53 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:42:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Tech Visionaries and LSD
Message-ID: <201004061609.o36G9gkh000084@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I was tickled that the normally-staid CIO magazine featured this slideshow:

Tech Visionaries and LSD: Turn On, Tune In, Geek Out
http://www.cio.com/article/589362/Tech_Visionaries_and_LSD_Turn_On_Tune_In_Geek_Out?page=1#slideshow


One exception to the staidness of CIO was "More Than Human" by Fred 
Hapgood, from several years back. That seems no longer to be 
available, but there's my review:
http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreco.aspx?coid=CO122204177547

Max



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 18:23:18 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:23:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <k2iee50357e1004060426l399f94f3t3a1841280aa77782@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com>
	<k2iee50357e1004060426l399f94f3t3a1841280aa77782@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <j2g7641ddc61004061123safade1ek373e0f6ee99b0a1e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:26 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are just too many variables in real world cases to make a
> general statement that big cars stop quicker.

### Ceteribus paribus, heavier cars stop later which is a feature, not
a bug. In a collision with an object of relatively low mass (such as
another car), it is better to be the relatively heavier car, since
your deceleration will be much less extreme than the deceleration of a
person in the relatively lighter car. A semi will decelerate little
while smashing a Hummer to smithereens, and these smithereens could
still smash an econobox.

This leads to an interesting thought: What kind of equilibrium
regarding prevalent car weights would form if there was no state
interference with human desires? How many would opt for driving
Bradleys? How many would rather save the gas money and go for the
nimbleness of an Exige?

Since head-on collisions are uncommon, the actuarial incentive to
spend on a Bradley would not be that large but the cool factor would
attract some users. Certainly, driving while free (i.e. stateless)
would be an interesting experience.

Rafal


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 19:23:24 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 20:23:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <j2g7641ddc61004061123safade1ek373e0f6ee99b0a1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com>
	<k2iee50357e1004060426l399f94f3t3a1841280aa77782@mail.gmail.com>
	<j2g7641ddc61004061123safade1ek373e0f6ee99b0a1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <y2tee50357e1004061223y57d4cffale1d3ef417245b7ec@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/6/10, Rafal Smigrodzki  wrote:
> ### Ceteribus paribus, heavier cars stop later which is a feature, not
>  a bug. In a collision with an object of relatively low mass (such as
>  another car), it is better to be the relatively heavier car, since
>  your deceleration will be much less extreme than the deceleration of a
>  person in the relatively lighter car. A semi will decelerate little
>  while smashing a Hummer to smithereens, and these smithereens could
>  still smash an econobox.
>
>  This leads to an interesting thought: What kind of equilibrium
>  regarding prevalent car weights would form if there was no state
>  interference with human desires? How many would opt for driving
>  Bradleys? How many would rather save the gas money and go for the
>  nimbleness of an Exige?
>
>  Since head-on collisions are uncommon, the actuarial incentive to
>  spend on a Bradley would not be that large but the cool factor would
>  attract some users. Certainly, driving while free (i.e. stateless)
>  would be an interesting experience.
>
>

Braking distance mostly depends on the capacity of the brakes and
friction of the tyre contact patch on the road.

Big cars plus big tyres plus big brakes should (in theory) stop in a
similar distance to small cars with smaller tyres and smaller brakes.
A small car with *big* brakes (discs all-round) and ABS should have
the shortest stopping distance. Car mags have run tests of 0 to 100
and back to 0, and small, light cars with big engines and big brakes
win hands down.

I don't think the dreaded government is much concerned about the size
of car you drive.  It is cost that is the main driver (!) of choice.
Fuel costs money and will cost more as oil becomes scarce. Smaller
cars use less fuel.
Insurance and maintenance costs also increase as cars get more
powerful and expensive to repair. Smaller cars are cheaper to insure
and service.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  6 19:34:03 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:34:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <j2g7641ddc61004061123safade1ek373e0f6ee99b0a1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike><t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com><m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com><g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com><x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com><k2iee50357e1004060426l399f94f3t3a1841280aa77782@mail.gmail.com>
	<j2g7641ddc61004061123safade1ek373e0f6ee99b0a1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A2226B354A54BCB973D4304C72AD8D6@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
> Subject: Re: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
> 
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:26 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > There are just too many variables in real world cases to make a 
> > general statement that big cars stop quicker.
> 
> ### Ceteribus paribus, heavier cars stop later which is a 
> feature, not a bug...
> Since head-on collisions are uncommon, the actuarial 
> incentive to spend on a Bradley would not be that large... Rafal

Ja, what I actually had in mind is being struck from the rear while turning
left by some silly prole yakking on her damn cell phone instead of paying
attention.  While head on collisions have become less common, the hit from
behind I think is becoming more common.  Two accidents: my step father and a
good friend were both hit in just that way under those circumstances.  

Simple reasoning: if that happens, one is better off in a big sturdy car,
with the silly phone-yakking prole in something that gets remarkably good
fuel economy.  I have a big sturdy car, which is unlikely to wear out in the
next couple or three decades.  New fuel economy standards will result in
very light cars, and newer lighter cars are more likely to be purchased and
operated by that class of prole who I fear the most: young women.

I myself was a passenger in a car that was struck from behind.  I was in his
'66 Lincoln, the car that struck us was a corvette.  The vette went neatly
under us.  No injury to us, not even any serious damage to Mister Lincoln.
The corvette wasn't so lucky, and its operator, altho uninjured, was found
to be drunk and surely faced severe legal repercussions.  This was 30 over
thirty years ago.

Again, the point is that the way the arguments against small cars take into
account the increased risk of the mini-car driving prole perishing when she
hits me, but as far as I can tell it doesn't take into account the lowered
chances of my demise or injury in that accident.  Introducing fleets of tiny
cars might actually be overall a health and safety benefit.

To take Jeff's point a little ways, it would be easy to go part way with his
idea of an robo-chauffer: install autobraking to greatly reduce the
incidence and severity of rear end collisions.  We already have
brake-by-wire and throttle-by wire, and we already have distance and speed
detectors (there are two in the back bumper of Mister Lincoln to tell me if
I am backing toward some solid object).  It would be fairly simple to rig up
an autobrake, in fact it has already been done, and it works.  Problem: if
people start to rely on autobrake as I currently rely on aft warning (by
backing up without even looking in my mirrors) then someone hits ice and
slays someone, who is responsible?  The manufacturer?  The prole who insists
this system always worked before?

spike







From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 22:07:22 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 18:07:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <y2tee50357e1004061223y57d4cffale1d3ef417245b7ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com>
	<k2iee50357e1004060426l399f94f3t3a1841280aa77782@mail.gmail.com>
	<j2g7641ddc61004061123safade1ek373e0f6ee99b0a1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2tee50357e1004061223y57d4cffale1d3ef417245b7ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <i2s7641ddc61004061507k11add126i94345151f4389fc1@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 3:23 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

### The deceleration in collision, and this is what I wrote about, is
not substantially impacted by the brakes. The primary consideration is
the ratio of weights of the colliding cars, as well as the stiffness
of their frames.

--------------------------
>
> I don't think the dreaded government is much concerned about the size
> of car you drive. ?It is cost that is the main driver (!) of choice.
> Fuel costs money and will cost more as oil becomes scarce. Smaller
> cars use less fuel.
> Insurance and maintenance costs also increase as cars get more
> powerful and expensive to repair. Smaller cars are cheaper to insure
> and service.

### My choices are constrained by CAFE regulations, gas taxes, gas
guzzler taxes, and a host of other forms of interference, all of which
force me to drive a lighter, smaller car (Mustang) than what I would
choose if only free trade shaped the trade-offs.

Rafal



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 22:46:30 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 23:46:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] fuel economy vs danger
In-Reply-To: <i2s7641ddc61004061507k11add126i94345151f4389fc1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ED7F4448D3C24458B49898964CD58B91@spike>
	<t2q580930c21004020253q2216ea81pd6d8afab91cab894@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2lffd22f9d1004030551nf2ad9dc3l75c8086b01d76e99@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2s580930c21004060354hcae32f1ahb584e98d8ac1a68@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2jffd22f9d1004060408v6d0b5364mbac7ccd24655f981@mail.gmail.com>
	<k2iee50357e1004060426l399f94f3t3a1841280aa77782@mail.gmail.com>
	<j2g7641ddc61004061123safade1ek373e0f6ee99b0a1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<y2tee50357e1004061223y57d4cffale1d3ef417245b7ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<i2s7641ddc61004061507k11add126i94345151f4389fc1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <k2see50357e1004061546q29484fajec87424e615315d4@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/6/10, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> ### My choices are constrained by CAFE regulations, gas taxes, gas
>  guzzler taxes, and a host of other forms of interference, all of which
>  force me to drive a lighter, smaller car (Mustang) than what I would
>  choose if only free trade shaped the trade-offs.
>
>


As I said, those items are only indirectly related to the size of car you drive.
Those are consumption taxes, whereby the more you consume, the more
tax you pay.  Presumably, if you can afford lavish consumption, the
small amount of extra tax you pay will be of little concern.

For the majority of people on lower incomes, expenditure becomes more
restricted towards the minimum necessary to survive.

If you want to give everyone free cars, free insurance, free fuel,
free servicing and repairs, then everyone can spend many happy hours
deciding on their ideal car(s) regardless of expense or running costs
or environmental damage.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  8 14:59:08 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:59:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] anoxic loriciferans discovered
Message-ID: <3EE67F4B2D474C0D9CC7DCF268BDD278@spike>

 
This is a biiig deal, with far reaching implications for evolutionary
science:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/08/strange-creature-lives-oxygen/?tes
t=latestnews
 
If multicellular life can live without oxygen, it can exist in a lot of
places.  This might impact oil formation theory as well.
 
spike
 
 
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr  8 21:12:05 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:12:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] singing anesthesiologists
Message-ID: <F1647CFF34EA4E8EA3FB446103CBB8A7@spike>

These guys are all anesthesiologists.  They are good!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOrjcLJ2IE0
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOrjcLJ2IE0&feature=related>
&feature=related
 
{8^D
 
spike
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 22:24:55 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:24:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Video: If the Singularity goes horribly wrong...
Message-ID: <z2z2d6187671004091524xdfa820eand1a3890511a37bd1@mail.gmail.com>

A really nasty emerging seedA.I. with a taste for old school videogames just
might do this to us...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcv6dv_pixels-by-patrick-jean_creation

John  : )
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 10 00:44:44 2010
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] David Chalmers sings The Zombie Blues
Message-ID: <493694.28105.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

David Chalmers, friend of philosophical zombies, sings "The Zombie Blues"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiEVkDdmIF8&feature=related

This is your brain on dualism. :)

-gts



      


From max at maxmore.com  Sun Apr 11 15:46:28 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:46:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night
Message-ID: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

It's the 49th anniversary of the first person in space (and the 29th 
anniversary of the first shuttle flight), and parties are happening 
all over the world:

http://yurisnight.net/partylist/

Max



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 11 17:19:29 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:19:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night
In-Reply-To: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>

>... On Behalf Of Max More
> Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night
> 
> It's the 49th anniversary of the first person in space (and 
> the 29th anniversary of the first shuttle flight), and 
> parties are happening all over the world:
> 
> http://yurisnight.net/partylist/
> 
> Max

A lot of us remember exactly where we were and what we were doing when the
shuttle made it's first flight.  In my case, I was far more worried about
and emotionally involved in the first re-entry, which was far more risky and
scary than the first shuttle launch.  So I have two indelible 29 year old
memories regarding those events.

Am I the only one here?  Did that rock your world back then?

spike






From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 20:26:57 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:26:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night
In-Reply-To: <16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>
Message-ID: <u2o580930c21004111326w16f35a9aq33df74e569dc3aad@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 April 2010 19:19, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> A lot of us remember exactly where we were and what we were doing when the
> shuttle made it's first flight.

Even though I was very young at that time, I already had the distinct
impression of an anti-climactic event, and of the end of an era more
than the beginning  of another.

The inglorious retirement of such an uninspiring project makes such
memory just the more sad...

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 10:27:15 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:27:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night
In-Reply-To: <u2o580930c21004111326w16f35a9aq33df74e569dc3aad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>
	<u2o580930c21004111326w16f35a9aq33df74e569dc3aad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s2me68fc1101004120327n3b58b046p160889489b068f72@mail.gmail.com>

Same here.

If the first landing on the Moon was like the first kiss, the first
Shuttle launch was like the first dental cleaning. Useful in many
ways, but definitely anti-climatic.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 April 2010 19:19, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> A lot of us remember exactly where we were and what we were doing when the
>> shuttle made it's first flight.
>
> Even though I was very young at that time, I already had the distinct
> impression of an anti-climactic event, and of the end of an era more
> than the beginning ?of another.
>
> The inglorious retirement of such an uninspiring project makes such
> memory just the more sad...
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 16:07:50 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:07:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
Message-ID: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>

Much has been written about the complex causes of the Great Recession.
Sub-prime mortgages, lack of regulation, derivatives, etc.

But I like this writer's easy-to-understand point of view.

<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/04/concentration-of-wealth-is-destroying.html>

Sunday, April 11, 2010
Radical Concentration of Wealth is Destroying Both Capitalism and Democracy

As I wrote in 2008:

    The economy is like a poker game ... it is human nature to want to
get all of the chips, but noted that - if one person does get all of
the chips - the game ends.

    In other words, the game of capitalism only continues as long as
everyone has some money to play with. If the government and
corporations take everyone's money, the game ends.

    The Fed and Treasury are not giving more chips to those who need
them: the American consumer. Instead, they are giving chips to the
800-pound gorillas at the poker table, such as Wall Street investment
banks.

    This is not a question of big government versus small government,
or Republican versus Democrat. It is not even a question of Keynes
versus Friedman (two influential, competing economic thinkers).

    It is a question of focusing any government funding which is made
to the majority of poker players - instead of the titans of finance -
so that the game can continue. If the hundreds of billions or
trillions spent on bailouts had instead been given to ease the burden
of consumers, we would have already recovered from the financial
crisis.

As FDR?s Fed chairman Marriner S. Eccles explained:
    As in a poker game where the chips were concentrated in fewer and
fewer hands, the other fellows could stay in the game only by
borrowing. When their credit ran out, the game stopped.
----------------------


Simple, Eh?


BillK



From nanite1018 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 19:28:14 2010
From: nanite1018 at gmail.com (Joshua Job)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:28:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Simple, Eh?
>
BillK
>

Yes, very simple, and completely wrong. Corporations cannot take everyone's
money. They have employees, and the only reason that anyone wants money is
to, ultimately, spend it on things, like private fleets of zeppelins, or a
solid gold toilet, or food, water, a new suit, a pair of boots, or an office
tower named after themselves. Money is only a medium of exchange and so its
acquisition, for 99.9999% of the people on the planet, is solely a means to
an end (and the rest die off or give it all away, putting their Scroogey
hoards back into circulation, so no problem there). Whatever money a
corporation makes, it spends somewhere, eventually, feeding the entire
economic system with its investment and purchases. More importantly, since
corporations can only acquire their wealth through voluntary exchanges (in a
free market), they are just owners of their money and all the transactions
in which they acquired that money were made to mutual benefit to both
corporation and consumer (people purchase goods of various kinds, called
such because they wanted them more then the money they spent, otherwise they
wouldn't have spent it). So the profit of corporations is good for everyone,
as it marks successful transactions to mutual benefit between consumers and
producers, and also is an avenue for new growth and the satisfaction of more
desires in the future via investment.

Government action is an entirely different beast. All the taxes and
regulations are only meaningful to the extent that they interfere with what
would have been free exchanges to maximum mutual benefit (as each party is
acting because it's the best thing he can do at the time). So any action by
the government necessarily makes people worse off than they were before
(actions above and beyond defense of property rights and personal
sovereignty that is). When government gets involved and starts taxing and
spending, things get thrown all out of whack, and you get problems where
some are getting rich without having done anything to the benefit of anyone
else, while others are being driven to the poorhouse for no reason other
than not being on the good side of some bureaucrat or elected official.
Government shouldn't intervene whatsoever in the free market, thereby
eliminating favoritism and benefiting everyone, in the long run, by putting
society back on the side of justice rather than whim and force.

I hate stealing from the poor to give to the rich equally as much as I hate
stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Don't people realize that
whichever way they go, they are still advocating stealing? What's up with
that? I say let's advocate, you know, not stealing, and punishing of
thieves. That seems like a far more rational option.
Joshua Job
nanite1018 at gmail.com
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Apr 12 19:19:30 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:19:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>
Message-ID: <ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net>

On Apr 11, 2010, at spike wrote:
>> 
> A lot of us remember exactly where we were and what we were doing when the
> shuttle made it's first flight.  In my case, I was far more worried about
> and emotionally involved in the first re-entry, which was far more risky and
> scary than the first shuttle launch.  So I have two indelible 29 year old
> memories regarding those events.
> Am I the only one here?  Did that rock your world back then?

Yea Spike back then I was young and stupid and pretty excited about the shuttle too, I vividly remember watching both the first launch and the first reentry on TV and thinking, erroneously as it turned out, that I had just witnessed something important.

The Shuttle  was supposed to make spaceflight cheap, routine, and ubiquitous; even the very name "shuttle" suggested that. At the time it all seemed to make sense, it was reusable after all; I remember people saying imagine how expensive it would be to fly across the Atlantic if you had to scrap a 747 every time it flew and then build a new one. I fell for that line completely. However it soon became obvious that the cheap 2 week turnaround promised was total mythology, however I didn't realize just how huge the White Elephant really was until the first shuttle disaster in 1986. The Shuttle was the worst thing that ever happened to spaceflight, we would have done better sticking with the Saturn 5, not one of them ever failed. 

 John K Clark   
> 

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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 20:00:54 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:00:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>
	<ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>

I missed Woodstock (darn!), but I was on the beach near Cape Canaveral
to see that first shuttle launch(Geek Woodstock?) in person.  Even so,
I was still seven miles away.  It was weird.  It took 35 seconds for
the sound to reach where I and the gathered multitudes were,
well,...gathered.  That is the launch was completely silent until 35
seconds in.  And then came the second surprise, because seven miles
away it was still the loudest sustained sound I had ever heard.

Best, Jeff Davis

    "We don't see things as they are,
           we see them as we are."
                      Anais Nin


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Apr 12 20:33:13 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:33:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike>
	<ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net>
	<t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28ED6592-023A-48A2-B574-61FC0060551D@bellsouth.net>

On Apr 12, 2010, at 4:00 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:

> I missed Woodstock (darn!), but I was on the beach near Cape Canaveral
> to see that first shuttle launch(Geek Woodstock?) in person.  Even so,
> I was still seven miles away.  It was weird.  It took 35 seconds for
> the sound to reach where I and the gathered multitudes were,
> well,...gathered.  That is the launch was completely silent until 35
> seconds in.  And then came the second surprise, because seven miles
> away it was still the loudest sustained sound I had ever heard.

I never saw a shuttle launch, but I was about 7 miles away, perhaps less, when they launched Apollo 11. Oddly one of the most vivid things I remember is the sight when I first arrived at the cape at about 3 am and saw the Saturn 5 brilliantly and I do mean brilliantly lit up by searchlights, the contrast between the shining rocket and the inky blackness that surrounded it was quite dramatic. I couldn't afford a motel room so I spent the night hanging around what must have been one of the first Taco Bell's that for obvious reasons decided that for this night it would stay open all night. I never bought anything. Like you I saw the launch in utter silence and even a half a minute later I didn't really hear the launch, I felt it. It was like somebody was beating on my chest.

 John K Clark  
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 12 21:54:57 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:54:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com><16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike><ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net>
	<t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0627B900A9C342FD8BDBA9062D5F3903@spike>

 

>...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Yuri's night.
> 
> I missed Woodstock (darn!)...

Ja me too.  Good thing tho, I heard there were "hippies" and "hip cats" and
such there at that concert.

(Kidding, bygones.  {8^D)

> but I was on the beach near Cape 
> Canaveral to see that first shuttle launch(Geek Woodstock?) 
> in person...

That one I missed, having already left Titusville by then.

>  Even so, I was still seven miles away...

Ja, to be that close, good chance you were on the shore of the Indian River
along US1 somewhere.  During launches, there would often be spectators along
there lined up for miles.

> ...It took 35 seconds for the sound to reach where I and 
> the gathered multitudes were, well,...gathered.  That is the 
> launch was completely silent until 35 seconds in.  And then 
> came the second surprise, because seven miles away it was 
> still the loudest sustained sound I had ever heard.
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis

Jeff, my earliest memory that has a sound track was a launch.  My father
took me out to a place, don't know exactly where it was, but it wasn't US1,
but rather on the base somewhere (he had a badge, being an employee.)  I
remember we had the radio playing in the truck, and there were some guys
milling around.  It was the first launch of a Saturn V rocket.  The memories
are hazy, but I do recall we got up really early, before dawn.  I was
already awake, because he told me he and I were going to see something
really special, something I would never forget.  He was very right about
that.  We were out there at morning twilight.  It was a school day, because
he took me back to my first grade class afterwards, and it was already mid
morning.  A bunch of the kids were gone from school that day.

My memory was that the rocket made no sound when the fire spewed, and was
all the way up to about the top of the tower when that massive sound wave
hit us.  The indelible memory was of the popping and cracking that wasn't so
much heard as it was felt, like being thumped on the chest.  One could feel
the sound hitting one's chest, oh my.  Awesome, exciting times were those.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 12 22:31:21 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:31:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <28ED6592-023A-48A2-B574-61FC0060551D@bellsouth.net>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com><16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike><ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net><t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>
	<28ED6592-023A-48A2-B574-61FC0060551D@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <8FDE9E07DF5F46B1B776C69594255A92@spike>


...On Behalf Of John Clark

        ...I couldn't afford a motel room so I spent the night hanging
around what must have been one of the first Taco Bell's that for obvious
reasons decided that for this night it would stay open all night...  John K
Clark


Ja, I know exactly where you were hanging out that night, for that Taco Bell
became my favorite hangout during my misspent youth.  I remember when that
Taco Bell was being built, in 1968, pretty much the same time everything
else in Titusville was under construction.  Taco Bell was great for their 39
cent tacos and 29 cent bean burritos.  In calories per dollar (the only
number that I cared about in those days, the higher the better) they
actually beat good old McDonalds, and still do to this day.

Right where you watched Apollo 11 hasn't changed much since that Taco Bell
was built.  Right along there is still a good place to watch a launch.





Ah, what fond memories of a cheerfully misspent youth.  {8^D  spike  



 

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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Apr 13 00:06:30 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:06:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <8FDE9E07DF5F46B1B776C69594255A92@spike>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com><16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike><ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net><t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>
	<28ED6592-023A-48A2-B574-61FC0060551D@bellsouth.net>
	<8FDE9E07DF5F46B1B776C69594255A92@spike>
Message-ID: <E4876257-2498-413A-8B5F-2D6743537208@bellsouth.net>

On Apr 12, 2010, at 6:31 PM, spike wrote:

> I know exactly where you were hanging out that night, for that Taco Bell became my favorite hangout during my misspent youth.  I remember when that Taco Bell was being built, in 1968

That is a response I never expected, that is a response that was so cool I expected nobody to know what the hell I was talking about; and yet immediately after my weak comments Spike responded with a message so interesting and so cool that it approached absolute zero. And in addition to being cool and surprising Spike's message had the additional virtue of being true.

Yes all this is odd, but if you wait long enough odd things will happen.

 John K Clark




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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 13 01:04:55 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:04:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <E4876257-2498-413A-8B5F-2D6743537208@bellsouth.net>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com><16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike><ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net><t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com><28ED6592-023A-48A2-B574-61FC0060551D@bellsouth.net><8FDE9E07DF5F46B1B776C69594255A92@spike>
	<E4876257-2498-413A-8B5F-2D6743537208@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <DBF692C2AF074ADFB648088F2989BAAD@spike>

 


>On Behalf Of John Clark


		>>...I know exactly where you were hanging out that night,
for that Taco Bell became my favorite hangout during my misspent youth.  I
remember when that Taco Bell was being built, in 1968... spike


	>That is a response I never expected, that is a response that was so
cool I expected nobody to know what the hell I was talking about; and yet
immediately after my weak comments Spike responded with a message so
interesting and so cool that it approached absolute zero. And in addition to
being cool and surprising Spike's message had the additional virtue of being
true.	 John K Clark


John are you on the US east coast?  Take a vacation sometime when they are
launching the shuttle and do it soon because your remaining chances are few
and fleeting.  Relive that summer day in 1969, this time BUY SOMETHING at
that Taco Bell dammit and devour it, for that fine dining establishment will
still be serving edibles indistinguishable from that available over 4
decades past.  Furthermore, it is well known that Taco Bell food will
corrode one's arteries at a somewhat lower pace than the other fast food
alternatives.  

If the rest of you have never seen a shuttle launch, and even if you have a
tude about it as many of us do, I do urge you to seize the opportunity to
see it and feel it.  Seize the day, me lads, do it.

spike











From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Apr 13 04:48:46 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:48:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
In-Reply-To: <E4876257-2498-413A-8B5F-2D6743537208@bellsouth.net>
References: <201004111613.o3BGDGbX000039@andromeda.ziaspace.com><16F1B615BB294C8786461CDB46507710@spike><ECCE1C9B-5B58-46EA-9898-07D8FFB941C3@bellsouth.net><t2ja6a17bd41004121300h437f9f89n818f9b9b27d14225@mail.gmail.com>	<28ED6592-023A-48A2-B574-61FC0060551D@bellsouth.net>	<8FDE9E07DF5F46B1B776C69594255A92@spike>
	<E4876257-2498-413A-8B5F-2D6743537208@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4BC3F7AE.3060307@satx.rr.com>

On 4/12/2010 7:06 PM, John Clark wrote:

>   spike:
>> I know exactly where you were hanging out that night, for that Taco
>> Bell became my favorite hangout during my misspent youth.  I remember
>> when that Taco Bell was being built, in 1968

> That is a response I never expected, that is a response that was so cool
> I expected nobody to know what the hell I was talking about

This was a wonderful exchange!(Also Jeff Davis's popping in.)

Joe and Gay Haldeman drove me by one time when the orbiter was being 
prepped, so I saw it standing there, but I couldn't stay for the launch, 
damn it.

Damien Broderick


From moulton at moulton.com  Tue Apr 13 06:30:05 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (moulton at moulton.com)
Date: 13 Apr 2010 06:30:05 -0000
Subject: [ExI] Yuri's night.
Message-ID: <20100413063005.86106.qmail@moulton.com>


On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 14:00 -0600, Jeff Davis wrote:
> I missed Woodstock 

My friend Nancy and I spent a few hours at the event held at NASA/Moffet
in Mountain View, CA.  This Yuri's Night event had a mix of sci/tech
exhibits and talks running in parallel to music events and art displays.
There were a couple of airplanes which did the usual air show items
(rolls, etc).  The big replica rocket that had been at Burning Man in
2009 was there.  The Maker Faire folks were there and selling discounted
Maker Faire tickets so I was able to save a few dollars.  There was
supposedly a Shuttle astronaut walking around mingling but I did not
bump into her.  Admission was fairly expensive at about $50 per person
however I saved $20 each on two Maker Faire tickets because of the
discount inside Yuri's Night.

Fred


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 07:33:39 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 03:33:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2x7641ddc61004130033i22a7b4f5qd437dbff4dd5f621@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/12 Joshua Job <nanite1018 at gmail.com>:
>
> I hate stealing from the poor to give to the rich equally as much as I hate
> stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Don't people realize that
> whichever way they go, they are still advocating stealing? What's up with
> that? I say let's advocate, you know, not stealing, and punishing of
> thieves. That seems like a far more rational option.

### Problem is, there are enough economically ignorant sanctimonious
jerks who just love to undercut those who are successful, out of pure
envious spite, and hypocritically call it "justice". You won't find
much interest in rationality out there.

Rafal


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 08:37:31 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:37:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/12 Joshua Job wrote:
<snip theory of corporations=nice, government=nasty>
>
> I hate stealing from the poor to give to the rich equally as much as I hate
> stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Don't people realize that
> whichever way they go, they are still advocating stealing? What's up with
> that? I say let's advocate, you know, not stealing, and punishing of
> thieves. That seems like a far more rational option.
>


In the US the corporations *are* the government.
Or haven't you noticed?

You have to let reality speak to you.
Neat economic theories are all very well, but the data takes precedence.
As Rafal says there isn't much rationality out there.


BillK


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 14:00:06 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:00:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 4:37 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> In the US the corporations *are* the government.

### No, corporations didn't eat the government, it is the government
that is in the process of eating corporations. Once they are done with
us, all will go to shit, 'cause nobody will be doing any useful work
anymore, just "regulating" and taking bribes.

Rafal


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 14:13:25 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:13:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>

I don't trust governments AND big corporations, and I wish to see the power
of both big government and big corporations reduced. Am I the only one?

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Apr 13, 2010 4:01 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 4:37 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote: > In the US
the corporations *are*...
### No, corporations didn't eat the government, it is the government
that is in the process of eating corporations. Once they are done with
us, all will go to shit, 'cause nobody will be doing any useful work
anymore, just "regulating" and taking bribes.

Rafal

_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy...
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 13 15:51:21 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <931637.20125.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No, you're not. The basic radical libertarian analysis of history (from people like Rothbard and Kolko, for instance)?is that corporations generally seek government privileges to avoid market competition. As most people confuse corporate-government partnerships and cannot imagine a free market without corporate privilige, they are easily duped into believing ever more regulation and intervention is the solution to this problem -- instead of removing regulations and legal privileges (which would result in many corporations today going under; e.g., Citigroup and GM wouldn't have survived on a truly free market).

Regards,

Dan

From: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
To: rafal at smigrodzki.org; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 10:13:25 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game


I don't trust governments AND big corporations, and I wish to see the power of both big government and big corporations reduced. Am I the only one?
--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799
On Apr 13, 2010 4:01 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 4:37 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote: > In the US the corporations *are*...### No, corporations didn't eat the government, it is the government
>that is in the process of eating corporations. Once they are done with
>us, all will go to shit, 'cause nobody will be doing any useful work
>anymore, just "regulating" and taking bribes.
>
>Rafal
>
>_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy...


      
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 17:27:18 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:27:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/13 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
> I don't trust governments AND big corporations, and I wish to see the power
> of both big government and big corporations reduced. Am I the only one?

### No, you are not :)

Pity there are so few people who see the problem with *both*
government and large (i.e. government-like) corporations. Most see
only one side of the coin.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 13 18:11:52 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:11:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
> 
> 2010/4/13 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
> > I don't trust governments AND big corporations, and I wish 
> to see the 
> > power of both big government and big corporations reduced. 
> Am I the only one?
> 
> ### No, you are not :)
> 
> Pity there are so few people who see the problem with *both* 
> government and large (i.e. government-like) corporations. 
> Most see only one side of the coin... Rafal

Giulio the critical difference is that if you don't like a big corporation,
you have the option of going into business in competition against it.
Competing against the fed is not so easy, assuming you do not wish to be
shot or imprisoned.  If you don't like a corporation, you have the option of
refusing to trade with it.

spike







From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 13 18:01:26 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:01:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <931637.20125.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<931637.20125.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <64BE6672E4984BD5B44EED4F9DA82297@spike>

 


...which would result in many corporations today going under; e.g.,
Citigroup and GM wouldn't have survived on a truly free market)...Regards,
Dan


Sure Dan, but that almost makes it sound like a bad thing.  My approach to
GM's problems would have been to give them assurance that we would remember
them fondly, and say nice things about them after they are gone.

Regarding the bailout of Citigroup, we have not incentivized the industry to
control risk in any reasonable fashion, but rather demonstrated that the way
to success in that business is to become too big to fail.  This is not good,
Maverick.  We will pay, repeatedly and dearly.

spike




	
	



From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 18:29:27 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:29:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
Message-ID: <q2te68fc1101004131129t514c1766x53cfc8f10891ce6b@mail.gmail.com>

This is naive spike, a big corporation becomes a de-facto monopoly.
You don't have the option to go into business in competition against
it, and you don't have the option of refusing to trade with it.
Actually, big corporations act in partnerships with governments and
are the best friends of governments, collaborating in stealing money
and resources from the rest of us.

Power systems protect themselves. Governments protect big
corporations, and big corporations protect governments. At times it
seems that they act against each other, but it is all smoke in the
eyes. Powers support powers in excluding the little people from power.

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:11 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>> ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
>>
>> 2010/4/13 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
>> > I don't trust governments AND big corporations, and I wish
>> to see the
>> > power of both big government and big corporations reduced.
>> Am I the only one?
>>
>> ### No, you are not :)
>>
>> Pity there are so few people who see the problem with *both*
>> government and large (i.e. government-like) corporations.
>> Most see only one side of the coin... Rafal
>
> Giulio the critical difference is that if you don't like a big corporation,
> you have the option of going into business in competition against it.
> Competing against the fed is not so easy, assuming you do not wish to be
> shot or imprisoned. ?If you don't like a corporation, you have the option of
> refusing to trade with it.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue Apr 13 18:31:21 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:31:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
Message-ID: <4BC4B879.3020100@libero.it>

Il 13/04/2010 20.11, spike ha scritto:
>
>
>> ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
>>
>> 2010/4/13 Giulio Prisco<giulio at gmail.com>:
>>> I don't trust governments AND big corporations, and I wish
>> to see the
>>> power of both big government and big corporations reduced.
>> Am I the only one?
>>
>> ### No, you are not :)
>>
>> Pity there are so few people who see the problem with *both*
>> government and large (i.e. government-like) corporations.
>> Most see only one side of the coin... Rafal
>
> Giulio the critical difference is that if you don't like a big corporation,
> you have the option of going into business in competition against it.
> Competing against the fed is not so easy, assuming you do not wish to be
> shot or imprisoned.  If you don't like a corporation, you have the option of
> refusing to trade with it.

I would add that any corporation starting to use force against random 
competitors to keep them out of their business is called "government" or 
"mafia".

Mirco
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 13 19:32:21 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
Message-ID: <692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The problem is often enough big corporations are usally well connected politically, so they get the government to regulate or?prohibit their competition. This can often take subtle forms, such as Walmart's support of raising the legal minimum wage -- which makes it much harder on Walmart's smaller?competitors.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: rafal at smigrodzki.org; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 2:11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game

> ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
> 
> 2010/4/13 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
> > I don't trust governments AND big corporations, and I wish 
> to see the 
> > power of both big government and big corporations reduced. 
> Am I the only one?
> 
> ### No, you are not :)
> 
> Pity there are so few people who see the problem with *both* 
> government and large (i.e. government-like) corporations. 
> Most see only one side of the coin... Rafal

Giulio the critical difference is that if you don't like a big corporation,
you have the option of going into business in competition against it.
Competing against the fed is not so easy, assuming you do not wish to be
shot or imprisoned.? If you don't like a corporation, you have the option of
refusing to trade with it.

spike


      



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 20:02:38 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:02:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <q2te68fc1101004131129t514c1766x53cfc8f10891ce6b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<q2te68fc1101004131129t514c1766x53cfc8f10891ce6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <q2g7641ddc61004131302m5ded9b5cl348937e91ee0f7b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is naive spike, a big corporation becomes a de-facto monopoly.
> You don't have the option to go into business in competition against
> it, and you don't have the option of refusing to trade with it.
> Actually, big corporations act in partnerships with governments and
> are the best friends of governments, collaborating in stealing money
> and resources from the rest of us.

### This is an old canard, Giulio. You can always compete or refuse to
trade with a corporation, unless it is supported by the government.
There is not a single case of a private monopolist capable of
preventing competition in a capitalist economy ever - this happens
exclusively when a government intervenes to create a monopoly.

I challenge you to give us a single specific historic example of a
private entity that would refute this observation.

Rafal


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 13 19:43:35 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:43:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <4BC4B879.3020100@libero.it>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<4BC4B879.3020100@libero.it>
Message-ID: <702648.54833.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No, it's not usually random and it's usually called lobbying and often dressed up as necessary regulations for the public interest, the common good, the good of the country, and the like. In other words, corporations don't usually go after competitors by using force directly. They do it indirectly by getting the government to go after competitors.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 2:31:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game

Il 13/04/2010 20.11, spike ha scritto:
>> Pity there are so few people who see the problem with *both*
>> government and large (i.e. government-like) corporations.
>> Most see only one side of the coin... Rafal
>
> Giulio the critical difference is that if you don't like a big corporation,
> you have the option of going into business in competition against it.
> Competing against the fed is not so easy, assuming you do not wish to be
> shot or imprisoned.? If you don't like a corporation, you have the option of
> refusing to trade with it.

I would add that any corporation starting to use force against random 
competitors to keep them out of their business is called "government" or 
"mafia".

Mirco


      



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 13 20:33:42 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:33:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE:  Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com><v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com><8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
> 
> The problem is often enough big corporations are usally well 
> connected politically, so they get the government to regulate 
> or?prohibit their competition. This can often take subtle 
> forms, such as Walmart's support of raising the legal minimum 
> wage -- which makes it much harder on Walmart's smaller?competitors.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan

Sure Dan, but you personally have the option of not shopping at Walmart, and
instead patronizing the many boutique shops that are so common these days.
I recognize that the whole question is filled with maddening paradox.  For
instance, those who do not like Walmart often like the notion of raising
minimum wage.  Furthermore, it isn't clear it makes it harder on the
competitors, for there is still a few merchants who pay their workers more
than minimum anyway in exchange for their actually having to know something
about the products on their shelves.  By raising minimum wage, the prices at
Walmart would need to be raised proportionally to cover the additional cost,
and so would approach the prices at the boutique stores, giving the
advantage to the latter.  

I am a silent witness to a wild local battle, specifically about Walmart.
The local Wallyworld proposes expanding dramatically, carry groceries and so
forth.  I see both good and bad in this, and yes I do shop at WalMart
personally, completely without shame or ethical reservations.  I recognize
that local merchants will be hurt by it's imposing presence.

Among it's many virtues, if you dress weird enough when shopping there, you
may get the opportunity of being ridiculed by people all over the planet:

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

Even if one does not make the website, just seeing how the other proles
dress there causes a geek to feel downright Hollywood in comparison.  It is
like when you go to the retirement home and see all the crippled old people
there, and it casues you feel like some sort of superhuman athlete, only it
is the fashion-related counterpart to that feeling.  

I am hoping that the establishment of a "Super Walmart" will result in
super-weird clothing being donned by the super-proles who trade there.  I
figure derisive laughter is the sincerest form of flattery.  Even if it is
actually negative flattery, it is still sincere.

Regarding my first contention, I do encourage all of you to exercise the
option to not shop at WalMart at every opportunity, for this allows me to
waste less time getting through the checkout line.  Or if you do shop there,
I do urge you to dress like the red underwear lady in the link above.  I
took one look at her and forgot what it was I came there to purchase.

spike








From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 21:27:01 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:27:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
Message-ID: <u2xee50357e1004131427xc9dbe5dez65ff1b1ac338dcdc@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 9:33 PM, spike wrote:
> I am a silent witness to a wild local battle, specifically about Walmart.
> The local Wallyworld proposes expanding dramatically, carry groceries and so
> forth. ?I see both good and bad in this, and yes I do shop at WalMart
> personally, completely without shame or ethical reservations. ?I recognize
> that local merchants will be hurt by it's imposing presence.
>
> Among it's many virtues, if you dress weird enough when shopping there, you
> may get the opportunity of being ridiculed by people all over the planet:
>
> http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/
>
>


In the UK the biggest supermarket chain is Tesco.
(Walmart has bought a smaller chain called Asda).
Some towns are called 'Tesco towns' because more than half the local
households housekeeping money goes through Tesco tills.

In one Tesco supermarket (in Wales) they had to ban women from
shopping in their pyjamas or barefoot. (Sleepwear - pajamas in US?).

In most stores, youths are requested to remove their 'hoodies'.
(A hoodie is a jacket with a hood attached, usually worn to hide the
face from the ever-present surveillance cameras). One enterprising
young lad claimed to be of the Jedi faith and the hood was a religious
garment. He managed to obtain an apology from Tesco management.
Probably as a Thank you! for the nationwide free publicity for Tesco.

As with Walmart, wherever Tesco plans to open a new store an instant
local protest movement appears. One seaside village I personally know
about has a protest running at the moment. The reason for the protest
is the same as Walmart - many of the local small shops will go out of
business. But this particular seaside town is a rundown dump badly in
need of massive refurbishment. The town council and the county council
are wildly in favour because Tesco have agreed to practically rebuild
the whole town centre as part of the package. I think it will be the
start of a new era for this small town.


BillK



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 13 21:07:00 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com><v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com><8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
Message-ID: <851423.51458.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No, I think you're missing the point about a corporation using government to maintain or better?its position by making it harder on its competitors. Yes, some competitors won't be harmed by some of these regulations, including, as you point out, boutique shops. However, I was thinking more of non-boutique shops that do pay minimum wage now. A raise in that raises their costs. Typically, their wiggle room in inceasing prices -- to nullifying the cost increase -- is limited. In these cases, too, the politically powerful or connected or just plain established firm can absorb the costs -- i.e., it hurts itself, but it hurts its competitors more.

By using Walmart, too, I wasn't homing in on it. I have nothing against it personally, but only wanted to point out why it's likely to support a minimum wage increase. (In fact, it did support and even lobbied for the recent increase -- and few seemed cynical about this. Whereas, had Walmart lobbied against it and offered similar reasoning -- that this would actually help people out (which it would: minimum wages only help some workers at the expense of other workers and everyone else) -- most people would've?been skeptical.)

I was actually, too, going to pull out "The Separation of Commercial and Investment Banking: The Morgans vs. The Rockefellers" by?Alexander Tabarrok -- which was first published in _Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics_ 1 (1) and is now online at:

http://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae1_1_1.pdf

Tabarrok contention is that the motivation behind Glass-Stegall Act was not to help out the nation by regulating these banks, but to help one group of bankers at the expense of other bankers and everyone else.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 4:33:42 PM
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
> 
> The problem is often enough big corporations are usally well 
> connected politically, so they get the government to regulate 
> or?prohibit their competition. This can often take subtle 
> forms, such as Walmart's support of raising the legal minimum 
> wage -- which makes it much harder on Walmart's smaller?competitors.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan

Sure Dan, but you personally have the option of not shopping at Walmart, and
instead patronizing the many boutique shops that are so common these days.
I recognize that the whole question is filled with maddening paradox.? For
instance, those who do not like Walmart often like the notion of raising
minimum wage.? Furthermore, it isn't clear it makes it harder on the
competitors, for there is still a few merchants who pay their workers more
than minimum anyway in exchange for their actually having to know something
about the products on their shelves.? By raising minimum wage, the prices at
Walmart would need to be raised proportionally to cover the additional cost,
and so would approach the prices at the boutique stores, giving the
advantage to the latter.? 

I am a silent witness to a wild local battle, specifically about Walmart.
The local Wallyworld proposes expanding dramatically, carry groceries and so
forth.? I see both good and bad in this, and yes I do shop at WalMart
personally, completely without shame or ethical reservations.? I recognize
that local merchants will be hurt by it's imposing presence.

Among it's many virtues, if you dress weird enough when shopping there, you
may get the opportunity of being ridiculed by people all over the planet:

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

Even if one does not make the website, just seeing how the other proles
dress there causes a geek to feel downright Hollywood in comparison.? It is
like when you go to the retirement home and see all the crippled old people
there, and it casues you feel like some sort of superhuman athlete, only it
is the fashion-related counterpart to that feeling.? 

I am hoping that the establishment of a "Super Walmart" will result in
super-weird clothing being donned by the super-proles who trade there.? I
figure derisive laughter is the sincerest form of flattery.? Even if it is
actually negative flattery, it is still sincere.

Regarding my first contention, I do encourage all of you to exercise the
option to not shop at WalMart at every opportunity, for this allows me to
waste less time getting through the checkout line.? Or if you do shop there,
I do urge you to dress like the red underwear lady in the link above.? I
took one look at her and forgot what it was I came there to purchase.

spike






_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue Apr 13 22:36:57 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:36:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <702648.54833.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>	<4BC4B879.3020100@libero.it>
	<702648.54833.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BC4F209.60609@libero.it>

Il 13/04/2010 21.43, Dan ha scritto:
> No, it's not usually random and it's usually called lobbying and
> often dressed up as necessary regulations for the public interest,
> the common good, the good of the country, and the like. In other
> words, corporations don't usually go after competitors by using force
> directly. They do it indirectly by getting the government to go after
> competitors.

So we return to the fact that is the government the problem, not the 
corporation.

What I was pointing out with my remark was the irrational fears of some 
people that corporation can take over with private militias and likes 
when a government is too weak. In this case they become the government, 
a tyrannical one and can be shot down like all tyrannical governments. 
Usually, in this case, they would be much more easy to put in their 
place, as they lack the moral ground that "governments" claim. They also 
become market averse, so their efficiency fall as always happen when 
people ban the market.

Mirco




-------------- next part --------------

Nessun virus nel messaggio in uscita.
Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com 
Versione: 9.0.801 / Database dei virus: 271.1.1/2808 -  Data di rilascio: 04/13/10 08:32:00

From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue Apr 13 23:07:09 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 01:07:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <u2xee50357e1004131427xc9dbe5dez65ff1b1ac338dcdc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>	<692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
	<u2xee50357e1004131427xc9dbe5dez65ff1b1ac338dcdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BC4F91D.2040506@libero.it>

Il 13/04/2010 23.27, BillK ha scritto:

> In the UK the biggest supermarket chain is Tesco.
> (Walmart has bought a smaller chain called Asda).
> Some towns are called 'Tesco towns' because more than half the local
> households housekeeping money goes through Tesco tills.

> In one Tesco supermarket (in Wales) they had to ban women from
> shopping in their pyjamas or barefoot. (Sleepwear - pajamas in US?).

> In most stores, youths are requested to remove their 'hoodies'.
> (A hoodie is a jacket with a hood attached, usually worn to hide the
> face from the ever-present surveillance cameras). One enterprising
> young lad claimed to be of the Jedi faith and the hood was a religious
> garment. He managed to obtain an apology from Tesco management.
> Probably as a Thank you! for the nationwide free publicity for Tesco.

> As with Walmart, wherever Tesco plans to open a new store an instant
> local protest movement appears. One seaside village I personally know
> about has a protest running at the moment. The reason for the protest
> is the same as Walmart - many of the local small shops will go out of
> business. But this particular seaside town is a rundown dump badly in
> need of massive refurbishment. The town council and the county council
> are wildly in favour because Tesco have agreed to practically rebuild
> the whole town centre as part of the package. I think it will be the
> start of a new era for this small town.

These evil corporations stop at nothing to do a buck. ;-)

I would say that the "local protesters" are always the same groups.
Political activists against the evil capitalist pigs (whatever they do) 
and the local shopkeepers fearing competition.

The point is always the same, anyway, corporations can prevent 
competition and harm unjustly people only with the help of governments.
The minimum wage laws are of this type, like zoning and other like these.

In Italy is not so different. When the big supermarket / mall 
/ipermarket want open a new center, protests happen and politicians are 
lobbied for and against. The major difference, I suppose, is that the 
small shop and their unions are stronger here, so they are able to 
prevent competition manipulating the governments. Not that they will 
last forever, but they will battle anyway.

Mirco
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 14 00:50:48 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:50:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <851423.51458.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com><v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com><8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike><692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com><F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
	<851423.51458.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D402B56F34564F1EB71D627D71F54DB2@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Dan
> Subject: Re: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like 
> a poker game
> 
> No, I think you're missing the point about a corporation 
> using government...
> ...By using Walmart, too, I wasn't homing in on it. I have 
> nothing against it personally... Dan

Ja, OK cool.  My intuition is to solve these kinds of problems is by
universally reducing the size and scope of government.  

We have in Taxifornia a situation where an idealist of my persuasion need
not be an activist, for circumstances are bearing down in such a way as to
fulfill these visions, regardless of what kind of sign we carry.  The budget
of this state is so dramatically over the expected revenue that the
Taxifornia government will need to scale itself downward in a breathtaking
fashion.  It has no choice: it has is no money left.  A state has not the
option of merely printing more money; it's budget must balance.

Last year, in a severe budget shortfall, Aaaahnold agreed to a tax increase
while arguing the end result is actually lower revenue to the state
government.  The outcome was in fact lower revenue to the state government.
Of course some may argue that the revenue would have been lower anyway, and
push for further tax increases.  This will likely result in still lower
revenue to the state government.  Rinse and repeat, until utter failure.

As goes the state of Taxifornia, so goes the nation.

spike




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 14 10:29:14 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] A little help re: the oil industry
Message-ID: <556701.35368.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Anybody with any experience or knowledge of the oil exploration and drilling industry please email me offlist. I would like to learn from you.

Thanks,
Stuart LaForge 


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert 


      



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 10:49:03 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:49:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] A little help re: the oil industry
In-Reply-To: <556701.35368.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <556701.35368.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <z2hee50357e1004140349w5b28d86fibc28c22f25ac0ada@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/14/10, The Avantguardian  wrote:
> Anybody with any experience or knowledge of the oil exploration and
>drilling industry please email me offlist. I would like to learn from you.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Stuart LaForge
>
>

What's this?  A new rule?
Lack of experience or knowledge doesn't stop us offering advice on
everything else that comes up.   ;)


BillK


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 14 13:49:54 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:49:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <4BC4F209.60609@libero.it>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<4BC4B879.3020100@libero.it>
	<702648.54833.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BC4F209.60609@libero.it>
Message-ID: <417674.57803.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think the real problem is not so much government as coercion. Government is merely the form this typically takes in society -- usually being the most highly developed and organized institution of coercion is any society. And I think the solution is to de-legitamize all coercion, including government coercion. This would make it impossible for government to exist in the first place and also make all other forms of coercion marginal -- the equivalent of petty crimes.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 6:36:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game

Il 13/04/2010 21.43, Dan ha scritto:
> No, it's not usually random and it's usually called lobbying and
> often dressed up as necessary regulations for the public interest,
> the common good, the good of the country, and the like. In other
> words, corporations don't usually go after competitors by using force
> directly. They do it indirectly by getting the government to go after
> competitors.

So we return to the fact that is the government the problem, not the corporation.

What I was pointing out with my remark was the irrational fears of some people that corporation can take over with private militias and likes when a government is too weak. In this case they become the government, a tyrannical one and can be shot down like all tyrannical governments. Usually, in this case, they would be much more easy to put in their place, as they lack the moral ground that "governments" claim. They also become market averse, so their efficiency fall as always happen when people ban the market.

Mirco


      


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 14 13:51:02 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <D402B56F34564F1EB71D627D71F54DB2@spike>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com><v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com><8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike><692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com><F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
	<851423.51458.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<D402B56F34564F1EB71D627D71F54DB2@spike>
Message-ID: <547838.29211.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My view is the size and scope must be reduced to zero. Anything less is like only removing a tiny sliver of a tumor and assuming the battle has been won.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 8:50:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game



> ...On Behalf Of Dan
> Subject: Re: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like 
> a poker game
> 
> No, I think you're missing the point about a corporation 
> using government...
> ...By using Walmart, too, I wasn't homing in on it. I have 
> nothing against it personally... Dan

Ja, OK cool.? My intuition is to solve these kinds of problems is by
universally reducing the size and scope of government.? 

We have in Taxifornia a situation where an idealist of my persuasion need
not be an activist, for circumstances are bearing down in such a way as to
fulfill these visions, regardless of what kind of sign we carry.? The budget
of this state is so dramatically over the expected revenue that the
Taxifornia government will need to scale itself downward in a breathtaking
fashion.? It has no choice: it has is no money left.? A state has not the
option of merely printing more money; it's budget must balance.

Last year, in a severe budget shortfall, Aaaahnold agreed to a tax increase
while arguing the end result is actually lower revenue to the state
government.? The outcome was in fact lower revenue to the state government.
Of course some may argue that the revenue would have been lower anyway, and
push for further tax increases.? This will likely result in still lower
revenue to the state government.? Rinse and repeat, until utter failure.

As goes the state of Taxifornia, so goes the nation.

spike


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Apr 14 14:11:37 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:11:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <547838.29211.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com><v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com><8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike><692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com><F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>	<851423.51458.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<D402B56F34564F1EB71D627D71F54DB2@spike>
	<547838.29211.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BC5CD19.8040908@satx.rr.com>

On 4/14/2010 8:51 AM, Dan wrote:

> My view is the size and scope [of government] must be reduced to zero. Anything less is like only removing a tiny sliver of a tumor and assuming the battle has been won.

Right, we could all enjoy the benefits of, say, Liberia or Somalia:

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/country_profiles/1072592.stm>:

<Somalia has been without an effective central government since 
President Siad Barre was overthrown in 1991.

Years of fighting between rival warlords and an inability to deal with 
famine and disease have led to the deaths of up to one million people. >

Damien Broderick


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Apr 14 16:10:43 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:10:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Half of everyone who ever reached 65 are alive now?
Message-ID: <201004141610.o3EGApWp019109@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

In this modestly interesting article...

The shock of the old: Welcome to the elderly age
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627550.100-the-shock-of-the-old-welcome-to-the-elderly-age.html

...the following claim is made:

"Of all the people in human history who ever reached the age of 65, 
half are alive now."

This sounds a bit like (but less implausible) the claim that more 
people are alive today than the total number of people who ever lived 
in the past. The latter claim turns out to be extremely far from the 
truth. I haven't tried to calculate the numbers for this more modest 
65+ claim, but it seems dubious. For instance, I suspect the author 
is using the life expectancy of past ages (say 30) and treating that 
as the age at which practically everyone died. In reality, even when 
life expectancy at birth was very low, that was substantially due to 
high infant mortality. Some people surely did live to 65. A small 
percentage than today, to be sure, but I find it implausible that the 
65+s of all of human history don't exceed those today.

But I may be wrong. Anyone know of any other analyses of this?

Max



From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 16:24:52 2010
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:24:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Half of everyone who ever reached 65 are alive now?
In-Reply-To: <201004141610.o3EGApWp019109@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201004141610.o3EGApWp019109@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <z2pbabd2c8d1004140924m3cc74a18s57d28a6469e32db4@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting. One could ask, if more than half over 110 lives today?
Apparently not, since there are only few of them and many were older than
110 in the past. Easily to check it out.

What about those over 100?

What is the lowest number X, over which half older than X years are alive
today.

There is no such X, I am quite certain.

- Thomas



On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> In this modestly interesting article...
>
> The shock of the old: Welcome to the elderly age
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627550.100-the-shock-of-the-old-welcome-to-the-elderly-age.html
>
> ...the following claim is made:
>
> "Of all the people in human history who ever reached the age of 65, half
> are alive now."
>
> This sounds a bit like (but less implausible) the claim that more people
> are alive today than the total number of people who ever lived in the past.
> The latter claim turns out to be extremely far from the truth. I haven't
> tried to calculate the numbers for this more modest 65+ claim, but it seems
> dubious. For instance, I suspect the author is using the life expectancy of
> past ages (say 30) and treating that as the age at which practically
> everyone died. In reality, even when life expectancy at birth was very low,
> that was substantially due to high infant mortality. Some people surely did
> live to 65. A small percentage than today, to be sure, but I find it
> implausible that the 65+s of all of human history don't exceed those today.
>
> But I may be wrong. Anyone know of any other analyses of this?
>
> Max
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 14 16:24:47 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:24:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
Message-ID: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike>

 
All this talk about capitalism, WalMart and Taco Bell gave me a hell of an
idea, we will make a cubic buttload of money.
 
You know of RFID, ja?  Radio frequency identifier tags, so tiny they can fit
inside a credit card making a scarcely noticeable bulge.  My ID badge at
work had one in it, so when I walk past certain secure doorways, they know
it is me and would automatically unlock.
 
Imagine a SuperWalMart or equivalent, a huge warehouse store.  You can see
twenty to thirty cash registers, proles lined up with shopping carts,
hauling stuff out of there 24/7, so simple logic and Kirchoff's current law
suggests an equal, opposite army of proles hauling stuff at an equal rate
from out back where the trucks park to stock the shelves.  Idea: if all the
products have RFID tags, the checkout process is greatly simplified, for the
device would automatically charge the proles for everything in the cart and
everything they have stuffed into their underclothing, assuming they wore
any.  This would greatly simplify the checkout process, and remove one of
the biggest objections to Walmart: it takes a long time to check out with
only 30 registers.  (Our local Fry's Electronics has 60 cash registers.
Sixty!)
 
With all the products marked with RFID, you could have readers on the
shelves, so the shelves would know when the proles have removed a sufficient
number of products to need restocking, so you could have a computer send a
message out back to bring a certain product.  Next, you could have your
trucks lined up with Chinese manufactured goods receive the message from the
shelves, then could load up shopping carts with the appropriate cartons,
which the employees would then push to the appropriate place, but (here's
the critically important point) the shopping cart knows where to go, so the
employee need not worry herself with reading, thinking, knowing where
anything is located.  Just follow the instructions of the differential GPS
guided shopping cart, go where it says, stock the shelf, return.  We could
employ the mentally retarded, or anyone who can physically move.
 
Next, the employee need not be paid by the hour.  The computer knows how
many products were stocked and by whom, since the employees would also be
wearing RFID, so they could work by commission like taxi drivers.  No need
for expensive supervisors cracking the whip, no need for employees to show
up at a certain time or leave at a certain time, so completely flexible work
hours.
 
Next, Taxifornia is proposing digging out of their budge hole by legalizing
and taxing marijuana.  OK we can work with that.  The above job requires so
little mental capacity it could be done while stoned.  We could dig up
Cheech and Chong to record the PA messages.  Remember that mellow stoner hep
cat?  Imagine his voice: Hey like attention shoppers man!  There's
like...um... stuff for like sale on aisle 9 maaaan...
 
The pay per item stocked could constantly fluctuate depending on how many
shelf stockers are present, so you would have something analogous to a
standing army.  The local Super Walmart is being built close enough to a
residential area that the stoned employees could walk to and from their
work.  Each employee could sign on as an independent contractor, which may
help with legal liability.
 
You have seen the way the customers dress at Walmart, well since this would
be the next logical step beyond that, you know they would let even more of
their stuff hang out.  Hell I would shop there just to see that.  In
compliance with health department rules we could have the shortest dress
code of any work place: Employees must wear shoes.
 
In any grocery, some food expires on the shelf, but is still perfectly
edible well after it's expiration date.  Don't worry about how I know this,
just trust me I know this.  You could offer that stuff to the employees, so
even if they don't make a lot of money, they have a job where they are high
constantly and are actually fed and stoned on the job.  This gives a whole
new meaning to the phrase Will Work For Food.
 
In fact, that would be a great name for the store, Will Work For Food Inc.
You have seen people hired to carry ad boards?  If we open Will Work For
Food, we already have a standing army of people carrying ad boards for us,
free.  We could send around a van and round them up: they are standing there
with the sign, we have work and we have food, we even have dope, get on
board.
 
The RFIDs on everything could be used to tell the customers where to find
the object they need, without having to ask the stoned employees.  Don't you
hate asking where to find stuff?  It is sooo too much like asking
directions, onerous, humiliating is this, puts one in a temporarily
submissive posture in relation to the WWFF employee, who probably doesn't
know anyway. 
 
For those of you who have ever worked for minimum wage, you know those are
some of the highest stress jobs imaginable: you are making next to nothing
under deplorable conditions, you often have a wild eyed boss screaming at
everyone to hustle their asses before she goes broke, etc.  This would
actually be likely a subminimum wage job for most of those doing it, but
they appear to be having a fine time, and besides, theoretically a sober
highly motivated person could exceed minimum.  And it would likely be a fun
job in its own way, temporary for most, but one of those which would offer
fond memories of a misspent youth down at WWFF.
 
It would appeal to people across the political spectrum: Walmart haters
would know that this would directly undercut the object of their wrath.  It
has a lot of "stick it to the man" in it, since the Searses and Macyes would
be crushed in the stampede right past their businesses.  The democrats could
set up a table out front to register voters in stunning hordes.  The
libertarians would like it because there are so few rules.  The hard core
capitalists would admire the fact that it is another step toward the most
efficient means of distributing manufactured goods, and would like the idea
of helping the hungry, poor and naked while making a buttload of money and
creating a free gawkfest for superannuated gentlemen.
 
spike
 
 
 
 
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 14 17:05:02 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:05:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Half of everyone who ever reached 65 are alive now?
In-Reply-To: <201004141610.o3EGApWp019109@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201004141610.o3EGApWp019109@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <877E47A027414053A51E43067589BBB3@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of Max More
...
> ...the following claim is made:
> 
> "Of all the people in human history who ever reached the age 
> of 65, half are alive now."
> 
> This sounds a bit like (but less implausible) the claim that 
> more people are alive today than the total number of people 
> who ever lived in the past...
> But I may be wrong. Anyone know of any other analyses of this?... Max

There are some simple BOTECs you can do to convince yourself to the
contrary, however the simplest way is just take a stroll thru the local
cemetery, bring along the envelope upon which you make actual calculations
if you wish.  Go into the older sections.  

While travelling on the US east coast, I have personally actually seen
cemeteries with graves put there 50, some more than 60 years ago!  I have
heard that in Europe, Africa and Asia and such countries as that, there are
graves still older than that.  The mind boggles.

Stroll thru, do the math, you will find that *plenty* of old timers lived
past 65, plenty of them did.  Then take 300 million Americans, estimate the
percentage over 65 now, and there is no damn way half the over 65ers are
alive today, not a chance.  I might buy the notion that half of all those to
reach 100 are alive.

spike




From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 14 17:32:03 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:32:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <4BC5CD19.8040908@satx.rr.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com><h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com><v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com><z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com><l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com><v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com><8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike><692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com><F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
	<851423.51458.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<D402B56F34564F1EB71D627D71F54DB2@spike>
	<547838.29211.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BC5CD19.8040908@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <45925.72040.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My view of Somlia is a bit different than yours. Under Siad Barre, Somalia had violence, famine, disease, etc. The stateless situation that followed this was likely, for many of the government actual and likely future victims, better.

That said, though, I don't want to paint Somalia as the ideal situation. I think, instead, you're looking at a nation in the worst possible shape -- partly if not mostly because of its government -- that went stateless. A far better example would be the Old West in the US (before the federal government stepped in and decided to exterminate the indigenous peoples)?or various other stateless conditions in Europe during the Middle Ages. (Again, one would have to do comparisons not between modern advanced civilized nations, but between these stateless societies and their neighbors.)

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, April 14, 2010 10:11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game

On 4/14/2010 8:51 AM, Dan wrote:

> My view is the size and scope [of government] must be reduced to zero. Anything less is like only removing a tiny sliver of a tumor and assuming the battle has been won.

Right, we could all enjoy the benefits of, say, Liberia or Somalia:

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/country_profiles/1072592.stm>:

<Somalia has been without an effective central government since President Siad Barre was overthrown in 1991.

Years of fighting between rival warlords and an inability to deal with famine and disease have led to the deaths of up to one million people. >

Damien Broderick
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Apr 14 17:41:24 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
Message-ID: <263139.65034.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 4/14/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Idea: if all the products have 
> RFID tags, the checkout process is greatly simplified, for the device would 
> automatically charge the proles for everything in the cart and everything they 
> have stuffed into their underclothing, assuming they wore any.

That's been tried.  Visualized, even:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOJv4JGBrxQ
(Upload to YouTube last year, but I think the commercial dates from
the '90s.)  Problems:

1. Shoplifters can and will wear clothes that foil RFID.  Foil is, in
fact, sometimes the means to this end.  Or they can swap tags for
expensive items w/ones for cheap items, which both lets them pay less
and messes up inventory.

2. Getting legit shoppers set up, so the RFID that says "this customer
is legit and here's the account number to charge" always scans and
doesn't set off security alarms.  If you've got a 1% false negative on
this, that's still way too high for many people.

> (Our 
> local Fry's Electronics has 60 cash registers.? Sixty!)

Most of the time when I go there, almost none of them are in use.
I think that's just to handle peak load, like Christmas shopping.
?
> the 
> shopping cart knows where to go, so the employee need not worry herself with 
> reading, thinking, knowing where anything is located.

Why use an employee?  Why not track-mounted robots (possibly ceiling
tracks, to be out of the way of customers)?  With the degree of
automation you propose, adding in servos and a track would not be
that much more expensive, and reduces employee errors.  (We can track
the errors we anticipate, but idiots - and you are suggesting the less
than fully mentally capable as employees - will always find new ways
to mess up.)

> The RFIDs on 
> everything could be used to tell the customers where to find the object they 
> need, without having to ask the stoned employees.

Assuming you know what to ask for.  A human might know that "burrito
wrappers" means "tortillas", but a computer won't know that unless
someone (probably some human) tells it specifically, and so on for
all other variations on food terms.  Not a problem for you and me
who are used to coming up with alternate search terms (all hail
Google), but this might be a problem for many people.

> It has a lot?of "stick 
> it to the man" in it, since the Searses and Macyes would be crushed in the 
> stampede right past their businesses.?

Unfortunately, whoever's running the supply chain for this new
store becomes "the man" by definition.

> The democrats could set up a table 
> out front to register voters in stunning hordes.

Which would prevent it from operating in Republican-owned areas.
Traditionally, big box stores have been able to work much better
in rural (and thus more likely Republican) areas than urban (and
thus more likely Democratic), because of the economics of large
pieces of land (to store many products, to have a sizable parking
lot, et cetera).

> The libertarians would 
> like?it because?there are so few rules.

Now here's an idea: get the Libertarian Party to sponsor wide-scale
voter registration drives.  Boost their numbers, by giving people a
cheap way to express discontent with both parties.

...or would they not have the resources to advertise themselves,
even for cheap?



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 18:56:26 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:56:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Biblical plagues in Australia
Message-ID: <o2kee50357e1004141156v37a38875qeb60c981cd65516d@mail.gmail.com>

Has Australia upset Yahweh?

They've had ten years of drought, then floods and now locusts.
<http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/locust-plague-ravages-farmland-the-size-of-spain-in-eastern-australia/story-e6frf7kf-1225853753689>

The plague of frogs is probably the cane toads.
They've always had the plague of flies.

What's going on?


BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 19:05:15 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:05:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <q2g7641ddc61004131302m5ded9b5cl348937e91ee0f7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<q2te68fc1101004131129t514c1766x53cfc8f10891ce6b@mail.gmail.com>
	<q2g7641ddc61004131302m5ded9b5cl348937e91ee0f7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2ye68fc1101004141205g90916b60tb64b8da0386a0bde@mail.gmail.com>

You said it: unless it is supported by the government. Big corporations can
always bribe government officers and recover much more than they have
invested in bribes, by unfair competition supported by the government. Small
companies cannot do this.

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Apr 13, 2010 10:03 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote: >
This is naive spike, a bi...
### This is an old canard, Giulio. You can always compete or refuse to
trade with a corporation, unless it is supported by the government.
There is not a single case of a private monopolist capable of
preventing competition in a capitalist economy ever - this happens
exclusively when a government intervenes to create a monopoly.

I challenge you to give us a single specific historic example of a
private entity that would refute this observation.

Rafal

_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy...
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 14 19:21:34 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:21:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <263139.65034.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <263139.65034.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42191D73530542558815F69905E9C515@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [ExI] will work for food
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 4/14/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > Idea: if all the products have
> > RFID tags, the checkout process is greatly simplified...
> 
> That's been tried...Problems:
> 
> 1. Shoplifters can and will wear clothes that foil RFID.  
> Foil is, in fact, sometimes the means to this end.  Or they 
> can swap tags for expensive items w/ones for cheap items, 
> which both lets them pay less and messes up inventory...

Solution: foil detectors.  Foil bends magnetic fields in a predictable way,
easily detected by airport-style security systems.  Alternate solution:
all-plastic shopping carts, package all the products without metals, and
stock the shelves with only known-electromagnetic signature metalspassing
thru an airport-ish metal detector.

Regarding swapping tags, I disagree.  RFIDs can be placed deep within the
packaging or on the product in such a way that it cannot be found, so tiny
are they.  The RFIDs can be placed on the product at the factory (cheaper
that way) before being placed into that maddeningly clever and intricate
modern plastic packaging that is so difficult to penetrate it actually
introduces a safety risk to the consumer: they resort to razor blades to
extricate the product, and if that fails, small improvised explosives.

Some of us use self-checkout at Home Despot.  When the cart is passed thru
the metal detector and all the RFID tags are read, the weight of the cart is
also measured, and compared with the sum of the weight of the cart and all
the stuff the RFID thinks is in that cart.

Properly done, tag swapping is actually solved by this technology rather
than introduced.

> 2. Getting legit shoppers set up, so the RFID that says "this 
> customer is legit and here's the account number to charge" 
> always scans and doesn't set off security alarms.  If you've 
> got a 1% false negative on this, that's still way too high 
> for many people...

Hmmm, OK solution: the customer doesn't have RFID, but rather pays for the
products in the usual way, with a credit or debit card.

...
> ?
> > the shopping cart knows where to go, so the employee need not worry 
> > herself with reading, thinking, knowing where anything is located.
> 
> Why use an employee?  Why not track-mounted robots (possibly 
> ceiling tracks, to be out of the way of customers)?...

Good idea.  Employees could be used as a transition technology.

...
> 
> > The RFIDs on
> > everything could be used to tell the customers where to find the 
> > object they need, without having to ask the stoned employees.
> 
> Assuming you know what to ask for.  A human might know that 
> "burrito wrappers" means "tortillas", but a computer won't 
> know that unless someone (probably some human) tells it 
> specifically, and so on for all other variations on food 
> terms.  Not a problem for you and me who are used to coming 
> up with alternate search terms (all hail Google), but this 
> might be a problem for many people...

Sure, but it is also a solution, for the computer can learn, and once it
does it never forgets.  Furthermore it is taught by a free volunteer
customer base.  It can learn arbitrarily many languages, dialects and slang.
For instance if you were asked where to find cock socks, would you know to
direct the prole to the condoms?  The computer would learn, and never forget
forever and ever amen.


> 
> > It has a lot?of "stick
> > it to the man" in it, since the Searses and Macyes would be 
> crushed in the stampede right past their businesses.
> 
> Unfortunately, whoever's running the supply chain for this 
> new store becomes "the man" by definition...

I have a solution for that too.  In the US we arrange tax advantages that go
to "minority owned business" and women qualify as minorities.  Consequently
a lot of small mercantile oriented businesses are female owned and operated.
These would be directly in the line of fire of WWFF, so the equal
opportunity crowd can sleep at night knowing that by shopping at WWFF they
stick it to the man and stick it to the woman equally.

> > The democrats could set up a table
> > out front to register voters in stunning hordes.
> 
> Which would prevent it from operating in Republican-owned areas...

Easy solution: have WWFF owned by democrats.  Recall that one seldom sees
voter registration drives by republicans: those guys are already registered,
have been since Roosevelt's new deal.

...
> > The libertarians would
> > like?it because?there are so few rules.
> 
> Now here's an idea: get the Libertarian Party to sponsor 
> wide-scale voter registration drives.  Boost their numbers, 
> by giving people a cheap way to express discontent with both parties.
> 
> ...or would they not have the resources to advertise 
> themselves, even for cheap?

Never work for libertarians Adrian: we might win.  Then what would we do?
No one knows of course, it has never happened.  Uncharted waters.

Regarding the name WWFF, I have been struggling to introduce a T in there
somehow, in order to have the acronym suggest a familiar and comforting
catchphrase.  The Latin based languages sometimes switch the order of noun
and adjective, so you might have something like "Will Work, The Food For" or
maybe get at the charitable angle with "Will Work To Feed Family" which
could then be shortened to "Work To Feed."  Alternately we could explore the
notion of mom, dad and kids all laboring there, suggesting the name "Work
The Family."  Of course then we lose the whole ad board army.  Open to
suggestion.  The notion is that this might work great for a huge mercantile
where most of the employees are stoned and many of the customers have large
cellulite-inflated body parts hanging comically and/or provocatively from
their flimsy excuse for clothing.

spike

ps It just occurred to me that the reason I am getting so few responses in
my continuing job search is that potential employers are googling my email
address and finding posts such as this one.  Normal rocket scientists just
don't write this kind of stuff, they really don't.  Rather than being a
gawking customer, I may soon find myself working stoned and nekkid at the
local WTF.


Kewallllll!









From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Apr 14 21:56:34 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <42191D73530542558815F69905E9C515@spike>
Message-ID: <401694.22043.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 4/14/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> > --- On Wed, 4/14/10, spike <spike66 at att.net>
> wrote:
> Solution: foil detectors.? Foil bends magnetic fields
> in a predictable way,
> easily detected by airport-style security systems.?

People complain about these at airports, where they
have to go.  "Unacceptable burden" describes it at
optional places, such as stores with competitors.

> Alternate solution:
> all-plastic shopping carts, package all the products
> without metals, and
> stock the shelves with only known-electromagnetic signature
> metalspassing
> thru an airport-ish metal detector.

That slightly limits the range of products you can carry,
but it could be managed.

> Regarding swapping tags, I disagree.? RFIDs can be
> placed deep within the
> packaging or on the product in such a way that it cannot be
> found

Except for produce.  Grocery stores are pushing for packaged
produce so they can just get barcodes - misrings are a major
problem in the industry - but producers and customers are
resisting it.  If you could find a cheap - half-cent or less
per unit of produce - way to fix this, applicable across
most varieties of produce, you'd have a business
opportunity.

> , so tiny
> are they.? The RFIDs can be placed on the product at
> the factory (cheaper
> that way) before being placed into that maddeningly clever
> and intricate
> modern plastic packaging

Assuming the factory owner agrees to do it for your one small
retail chain.  You can't skip this by pointing to benefits
once you are big: you will start out small, probably with
just one or maybe a few stores, and you will have to deal
with this problem and set up vendor relations while you are
at that size.  If you can not make it through this step, you
can not get to be big, for there is no path.

> Some of us use self-checkout at Home Despot.? When the
> cart is passed thru
> the metal detector and all the RFID tags are read, the
> weight of the cart is
> also measured, and compared with the sum of the weight of
> the cart and all
> the stuff the RFID thinks is in that cart.

Sure, if you have items of substantially different weight.
But a pound of ice and a pound of deluxe Name Brand ice
cream both weigh a pound, despite having different prices.
Still, more solutions of that nature might be able to
minimize the problem to an acceptable level.

> Hmmm, OK solution: the customer doesn't have RFID, but
> rather pays for the
> products in the usual way, with a credit or debit card.

This essentially reduces the concept to self-checkout,
which a number of stores are trying.  It's easier with
hard and/or packaged items, such as the Home Depot
example you mentioned, because bar codes can be applied.
Again, that might be the main problem that needs to be
overcome to make this obviously economical (to those
you'd need to get cooperation from to get the resources
to start this up).

> > Assuming you know what to ask for.? A human might
> know that 
> > "burrito wrappers" means "tortillas", but a computer
> won't 
> > know that unless someone (probably some human) tells
> it 
> > specifically, and so on for all other variations on
> food 
> > terms.? Not a problem for you and me who are used
> to coming 
> > up with alternate search terms (all hail Google), but
> this 
> > might be a problem for many people...
> 
> Sure, but it is also a solution, for the computer can
> learn

Only if the customers teach it, and teach it wisely.  If
you open the computer to learn from whoever walks up to
it, there is a high risk that vandals would corrupt its
knowledgebase with profanity and false knowledge, to the
point that honestly using it would become an unpleasant
chore, which would drive away customers.

> > > It has a lot?of "stick
> > > it to the man" in it, since the Searses and
> Macyes would be 
> > crushed in the stampede right past their businesses.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, whoever's running the supply chain for
> this 
> > new store becomes "the man" by definition...
> 
> I have a solution for that too.? In the US we arrange
> tax advantages that go
> to "minority owned business" and women qualify as
> minorities.? Consequently
> a lot of small mercantile oriented businesses are female
> owned and operated.
> These would be directly in the line of fire of WWFF, so the
> equal
> opportunity crowd can sleep at night knowing that by
> shopping at WWFF they
> stick it to the man and stick it to the woman equally.

Unfortunately, "the man" in that context is gender-neutral.
;)

> Never work for libertarians Adrian: we might win.?

If I were somehow in charge of the Libertarian party -
yes, I know, oxymoron, but just for sake of argument -
the first thing I would do is make sure the party gets
a candidate - someone, anyone who will carry the
Libertarian torch - on the ballot for every partisan
race (as in, everywhere where the ballot lists what
party a candidate belongs to) in every location the
party has ballot access.  (At least, where the amount
of resources - for signature gathering et al - to get
a candidate on the ballot is not substantially
higher than for the major parties.  I believe the
Libertarians have this status in California, for
example.)

That alone would get the party a dramatic increase in
number of elected officials, just from voter
discontent with incumbents where the other major
party fields no strong (or, often, simply no)
opposition.  That in turn would substantially increase
the resources the party has to work with - from third
party contributions to elected officials, state
resources gained by having people in office, and
increased voter registration once such a thing makes
the party seem more legitimate in the public eye -
which would enable it to seriously contest other
races.  I would probably stage this for an off-year
election, to minimize other issues that would distract
the news media from giving the party free publicity.

The above would apply were I to gain control of any
other non-major political party, or start my own.

I believe that is a strategy they can follow if they
wish to be seen as more legitimate, and it is not one
that the major parties can mostly prevent.  Next time
you look at a ballot, see how many of the minor races
- not the president, not the governor, and not
Congress, but instead the state legislature and
similar minor (but still important enough to list
party affiliation) races - simply don't have any
third party candidates.  All that would take to fix
is a group of volunteers with a wide enough
geographic dispersion, and timing.


> Regarding the name WWFF, I have been struggling to
> introduce a T in there
> somehow, in order to have the acronym suggest a familiar
> and comforting
> catchphrase.

*shrugs*  Given how irreverent the idea is anyway, why not
just put it in the official acronym?  "But what does it
stand for?"  Doesn't need to stand for anything.

Alternately, design the logo so the first F strongly
suggests a T.

> ps It just occurred to me that the reason I am getting so
> few responses in
> my continuing job search is that potential employers are
> googling my email
> address and finding posts such as this one.? Normal
> rocket scientists just
> don't write this kind of stuff, they really don't.?
> Rather than being a
> gawking customer, I may soon find myself working stoned and
> nekkid at the
> local WTF.

These posts don't show up high when I google myself.  That
one nanotech interview I did years ago keeps trumping most
of the other results.

Besides, having a public track record of trying to actually
solve problems is not inherently a bad thing.



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 10:03:02 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:03:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <417674.57803.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike> <4BC4B879.3020100@libero.it>
	<702648.54833.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BC4F209.60609@libero.it>
	<417674.57803.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r2oee50357e1004150303kb9a91f76ne514996cee826827@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/14/10, Dan wrote:
> I think the real problem is not so much government as coercion.
> Government is merely the form this typically takes in society --
> usually being the most highly developed and organized institution
> of coercion is any society. And I think the solution is to de-legitamize
> all coercion, including government coercion. This would make it
> impossible for government to exist in the first place and also make
> all other forms of coercion marginal -- the equivalent of petty crimes.
>
>


I don't think you can ever get rid of coercion without changing the
nature of the human species.

'Government' coercion (of some kind) is essential for civilization.

I am reminded of the article about 'feral cities' where law and order
has broken down.

<http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JIW/is_4_56/ai_110458726/>

Quotes:

Feral cities - The New Strategic Environment
Naval War College Review, Autumn, 2003 by Richard J. Norton

Imagine a great metropolis covering hundreds of square miles. Once a
vital component in a national economy, this sprawling urban
environment is now a vast collection of blighted buildings, an immense
petri dish of both ancient and new diseases, a territory where the
rule of law has long been replaced by near anarchy in which the only
security available is that which is attained through brute power.

 The putative "feral city" is (or would be) a metropolis with a
population of more than a million people in a state the government of
which has lost the ability to maintain the rule of law within the
city's boundaries yet remains a functioning actor in the greater
international system.

In a feral city social services are all but nonexistent, and the vast
majority of the city's occupants have no access to even the most basic
health or security assistance. There is no social safety net. Human
security is for the most part a matter of individual initiative. Yet a
feral city does not descend into complete, random chaos. Some
elements, be they criminals, armed resistance groups, clans, tribes,
or neighborhood associations, exert various degrees of control over
portions of the city. Intercity, city-state, and even international
commercial transactions occur, but corruption, avarice, and violence
are their hallmarks. A feral city experiences massive levels of
disease and creates enough pollution to qualify as an international
environmental disaster zone. Most feral cities would suffer from
massive urban hypertrophy, covering vast expanses of land. The city's
structures range from once-great buildings symbolic of state power to
the meanest shantytowns and slums. Yet even under these conditions,
these cities continue to grow, and the majority of occupants do not
voluntarily leave.

-------------


Doesn't sound much like libertarian heaven to me.


BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 12:02:30 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:02:30 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Biblical plagues in Australia
In-Reply-To: <o2kee50357e1004141156v37a38875qeb60c981cd65516d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <o2kee50357e1004141156v37a38875qeb60c981cd65516d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <y2wf21c22e31004150502o2cb39268vd07dec7ceed2c02d@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 April 2010 04:56, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Has Australia upset Yahweh?
>
> They've had ten years of drought, then floods and now locusts.
> <http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/locust-plague-ravages-farmland-the-size-of-spain-in-eastern-australia/story-e6frf7kf-1225853753689>
>
> The plague of frogs is probably the cane toads.
> They've always had the plague of flies.
>
> What's going on?

Compensating for this, Yahweh is causing it to rain money thanks to
the Chinese appetite for Australian resources.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 12:49:27 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:49:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike>
References: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike>
Message-ID: <v2qffd22f9d1004150549l1f56ec52raeebbe4bebbad816@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to be able to place an order at my local Wal*Mart via the web
with the option of picking it up or having it delivered. Employees or
robots could assemble the order from the stockroom (eliminating the
need to restock the shelves) or the shelves. No risk of shoplifting.
No liability issues. Slightly higher prices could be charged for
in-store shopping to cover the higher costs and to encourage
preordering.

-Dave


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 13:12:02 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:12:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <v2qffd22f9d1004150549l1f56ec52raeebbe4bebbad816@mail.gmail.com>
References: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike>
	<v2qffd22f9d1004150549l1f56ec52raeebbe4bebbad816@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2oee50357e1004150612j3e2182bfq632afd42d37cca57@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/15/10, Dave Sill wrote:
> I'd like to be able to place an order at my local Wal*Mart via the web
>  with the option of picking it up or having it delivered. Employees or
>  robots could assemble the order from the stockroom (eliminating the
>  need to restock the shelves) or the shelves. No risk of shoplifting.
>  No liability issues. Slightly higher prices could be charged for
>  in-store shopping to cover the higher costs and to encourage
>  preordering.
>
>

You can do this already.
'Site-to-Store' can be selected as your delivery option on your order.
It is usually *cheaper* than home delivery as it saves delivery charges.


BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 13:46:41 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:46:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <l2oee50357e1004150612j3e2182bfq632afd42d37cca57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike>
	<v2qffd22f9d1004150549l1f56ec52raeebbe4bebbad816@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2oee50357e1004150612j3e2182bfq632afd42d37cca57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <u2mffd22f9d1004150646l6099383bxddf45acc8d2cacdc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:12 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You can do this already.
> 'Site-to-Store' can be selected as your delivery option on your order.
> It is usually *cheaper* than home delivery as it saves delivery charges.

That close, but not exactly what I had in mind. That's ordering
through the general web site, which doesn't know what's on hand at the
local store. And it may be cheaper than home delivery, but how does it
compare to self-picked?

-Dave


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 15 15:23:18 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:23:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <l2oee50357e1004150612j3e2182bfq632afd42d37cca57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike><v2qffd22f9d1004150549l1f56ec52raeebbe4bebbad816@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2oee50357e1004150612j3e2182bfq632afd42d37cca57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7E2DECB5A0A94FC98527FD83F467B973@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: Re: [ExI] will work for food
> 
> On 4/15/10, Dave Sill wrote:

> > I'd like to be able to place an order at my local Wal*Mart 
> via the web  
> > with the option of picking it up or having it delivered. 
...
> >
> You can do this already.
> 'Site-to-Store' can be selected as your delivery option on your order.
> It is usually *cheaper* than home delivery as it saves 
> delivery charges...BillK

Ja, I have used this option perhaps a dozen times in the past five years.
It has the advantages of internet shopping, plus you still get to go down to
the local merchant and check out the women shopping in their sparkly red
underwear.  Best of both worlds.

Life is goooood.  

{8^D

One of the things I was going for is to create a work environment which is
completely self-paced so that there is no supervisor watching people work
for an hourly pay standard.  That hourly business is a terrible way to
compensate employees.  Everyone who has ever worked on any job with many
employees knows how inequitable this is.

We could imagine a system which eliminates so many of the costs.  Low level
employees could be paid by the job, which favors instead of penalizing the
eager energetic teens, who are seeing it ever more difficult to find
employment.  If you have the whole thing as membership only, owned by the
employees and members, it eliminates the headache of lawsuit risk by a
sexually harassed employees for instance.  It encourages employees and
customers to set up the business of merchandising in a way that makes sense
and is efficient.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 15 15:53:11 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:53:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <7E2DECB5A0A94FC98527FD83F467B973@spike>
References: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike><v2qffd22f9d1004150549l1f56ec52raeebbe4bebbad816@mail.gmail.com><l2oee50357e1004150612j3e2182bfq632afd42d37cca57@mail.gmail.com>
	<7E2DECB5A0A94FC98527FD83F467B973@spike>
Message-ID: <D0B7CF925FCE4A3CAF2EE0F903807BD5@spike>


> > On 4/15/10, Dave Sill wrote:
> 
> > > I'd like to be able to place an order at my local Wal*Mart
> > via the web
> > > with the option of picking it up or having it delivered...


As if on cue, this headline appears:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/snapshots/2255.html?h
pt=T2

Whether we like it or not, the business of merchandising is facing a forced
metamorphosis.  Manufacturing costs are actually dropping over time as
factory goods can be produced with less human labor and more information
content.  The web allows adverstising to reach more proles, against their
will if necessary (assuming they still have an actual will), distribution
costs are actuall declining as China builds ever larger ships and our semi
trucks ply the interstate freeways.

All these declining costs are putting the final distribution in the
crosshairs.  The old business model is doomed, the one where the local
merchant who knows something about their products.  I see no point in trying
to save that.

But if we do replace it with something, we should do it with something that
solves current major problems, such as shoplifting and threat of lawsuit by
employees.  Think about this, it wasn't just an idle gag earlier.  Imagine
having a job option that you could go and do at any time, any time of year,
any time of day, you could be away from it for days, weeks or months, even
years, then come back and do that job again.  No startup cost, no training
required, complete flexibility, just show up and work.  With that enormous
advantage, I can imagine it wouldn't pay very much, since the supply of
labor under those conditions would be enormous, but we as a society should
have something like that somewhere.

What is the closest approximation of this currently?  Anything?  Would it be
those guys who hang out in front of Home Despot with the understanding they
are available for day labor?

spike


   



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 16:01:36 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:01:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] walmart again: was RE: Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <u2xee50357e1004131427xc9dbe5dez65ff1b1ac338dcdc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<692141.97353.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<F788365AAABE4B20B09D03F949EA2DB4@spike>
	<u2xee50357e1004131427xc9dbe5dez65ff1b1ac338dcdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <j2x7641ddc61004150901ga6746481veebabc078fd8cd8d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 5:27 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> is the same as Walmart - many of the local small shops will go out of
> business. But this particular seaside town is a rundown dump badly in
> need of massive refurbishment.

### To quote from "30 days of night", "That which can be broken must
be broken". Those who refuse or are unable to serve their clients'
needs (i.e. sell stuff clients want at the lowest prices possible)
should be ground into the dust by the Moloch of economic progress.

I am not being ironic or sarcastic, this is actually the way I think.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 16:05:01 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:05:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism is like a poker game
In-Reply-To: <l2ye68fc1101004141205g90916b60tb64b8da0386a0bde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2hee50357e1004120907jbb5100fcuab8d6337a2e83980@mail.gmail.com>
	<h2s636112561004121228m52036fd9g635844f3cf571d47@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2iee50357e1004130137k2aacc11cr1b30c40f23b0190a@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2w7641ddc61004130700pab103bd3o3443827ca9fae45@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ke68fc1101004130713peebd7a48i34668d85ccec7adf@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2o7641ddc61004131027r4c1d9679y4a8bc0875ae597b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8DC9F1D68CE44E189DFD42688EABD68A@spike>
	<q2te68fc1101004131129t514c1766x53cfc8f10891ce6b@mail.gmail.com>
	<q2g7641ddc61004131302m5ded9b5cl348937e91ee0f7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2ye68fc1101004141205g90916b60tb64b8da0386a0bde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2w7641ddc61004150905l30b7d0daq57a540611dd2c824@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/14 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
> You said it: unless it is supported by the government. Big corporations can
> always bribe government officers and recover much more than they have
> invested in bribes, by unfair competition supported by the government. Small
> companies cannot do this.

### True. And the only solution that works is not to have a government
in the first place.

(Using the power of government to keep corporations small doesn't work at all)

Rafal


From max at maxmore.com  Thu Apr 15 17:18:45 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:18:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Theories X and Y, and theories U and T
Message-ID: <201004151718.o3FHIq7K006915@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Many fruitless arguments about how best to organize society and to 
pursue transhumanist goals originate in differing assumptions about 
how the world works -- assumptions that we are often insufficiently 
aware of. A new article (oriented toward business people but more 
generally applicable) provides some interesting perspective:

Theory U and Theory T
by Matthew Stewart
strategy+business, April 13, 2010
http://www.strategy-business.com/article/00029?gko=5d297&cid=enews20100413

Or my review of/commentary on the article, written for business types:

http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreco.aspx?coid=CO41310203621560

Max


-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 15 18:26:45 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:26:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Theories X and Y, and theories U and T
In-Reply-To: <201004151718.o3FHIq7K006915@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201004151718.o3FHIq7K006915@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4BC75A65.3040601@satx.rr.com>

On 4/15/2010 12:18 PM, Max More wrote:

> Theory U and Theory T
> by Matthew Stewart

<http://www.strategy-business.com/article/00029?pg=all>

This is very interesting, Max, for something so simplified.

It makes broad sense to me, because I was raised a strict Catholic TX 
(tragic authoritarian), although that doctrine always had its utopian 
aspects (especially given my fondness for science fiction); flipped down 
the matrix to Skinnerian UX (utopian authoritarian); following the 
?v?nements in France in 1968 and the left-anarchist analyses that 
followed embraced UY (utopian individualist), with misgivings, not 
having seen much evidence for it other than small free presses that 
stumbled along without much coercive central control, but still ended up 
with a few tough but creative types driving expensive imported cars and 
the rest heading off to the dole queues, and these days have probably 
reverted despairingly to TY (tragic individualist), despite my abstract 
fondness for UY anarchism.

That, in turn, simplifies everything far too much, because not all 
humans have the same bent, capacity, emotionality, herd instincts, etc, 
and it's probably the case that successful coalitions of humans require 
a sort of modular assortation, wih the self-starting scientists and 
artists allowed or even encouraged to do their own thing while the 
obdurate proles are put in harness and prodded or narcotized, horrible 
though that seems to us INTJs...

Damien Broderick


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 18:35:39 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:35:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Comp-neuro] Brain Corporation jobs: spiking models of
	motor control
In-Reply-To: <4bc72d66.9453f10a.7523.4434@mx.google.com>
References: <4bc72d66.9453f10a.7523.4434@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <o2p55ad6af71004151135w3035e281r3670b6e8e3028d99@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Eugene M. Izhikevich <Eugene.Izhikevich at braincorporation.com>
Date: Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM
Subject: [Comp-neuro] Brain Corporation jobs: spiking models of motor control
To: comp-neuro at neuroinf.org


Two full-time positions in computational neuroscience are available
immediately at Brain Corporation, San Diego, CA at the level of scientist
(postdoc), senior scientist (assistant professor), or principal scientist
(associate/full professor), to collaborate with the existing team of vision
neuroscientists to develop spiking models of motor control.

A successful candidate will have a published record of research on spiking
networks and good knowledge of theories of reinforcement learning and
forward/inverse models of motor control, as well as knowledge of MATLAB,
C/C++, and object-oriented programming.

Brain Corporation is located in beautiful San Diego, in close proximity to
the UCSD campus and the Salk Institute. The employee compensation package at
Brain Corporation includes annual performance-based bonuses, matching 401k
contributions, and a stock option grant.

Submit your resume/CV and relevant papers to Dr. Eugene M. Izhikevich at
<jobs AT braincorporation com>. In your cover letter, address your areas of
expertise relevant to models of motor control.

--
Eugene M. Izhikevich
Chairman & CEO
Brain Corporation
QRC-224L
5665 Morehouse Drive
San Diego, CA, 92121
tel. ?(858) 683-3402
http://www.braincorporation.com


_______________________________________________
Comp-neuro mailing list
Comp-neuro at neuroinf.org
http://www.neuroinf.org/mailman/listinfo/comp-neuro



-- 
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507



From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 01:34:37 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:34:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] will work for food
In-Reply-To: <7E2DECB5A0A94FC98527FD83F467B973@spike>
References: <03D291AF6DC04D8687C9A983B4957F73@spike>
	<v2qffd22f9d1004150549l1f56ec52raeebbe4bebbad816@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2oee50357e1004150612j3e2182bfq632afd42d37cca57@mail.gmail.com>
	<7E2DECB5A0A94FC98527FD83F467B973@spike>
Message-ID: <q2u62c14241004151834u1499592dse1dce2ab5a0fefcd@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:23 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> We could imagine a system which eliminates so many of the costs. ?Low level
> employees could be paid by the job, which favors instead of penalizing the
> eager energetic teens, who are seeing it ever more difficult to find
> employment. ?If you have the whole thing as membership only, owned by the
> employees and members, it eliminates the headache of lawsuit risk by a
> sexually harassed employees for instance. ?It encourages employees and
> customers to set up the business of merchandising in a way that makes sense
> and is efficient.

If anyone ever accuses you of being a pessimistic, show them this
paragraph.  I would like to agree with you, but my inner cynic can't
get past the assumption that employees and customers would achieve
equilibrium around "makes sense and is efficient"  Even when one of
the herd realizes that ramp leads to meat-packing equipment, they're
rarely able to 'encourage' the others to do anything but march up the
ramp.  I really dislike this analogy, but it fits too well.  I'd call
them/us proles, but it's the same thing isn't it?



From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 15 22:35:02 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:35:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mars manned flyaround in a quarter century?
Message-ID: <831889.27812.qm@web59908.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100415/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_space
"Obama did not predict a Mars landing soon. But he said that by 2025, the nation would have a new spacecraft "designed for long journeys to allow us to begin the first-ever crewed missions beyond the moon into deep space."
"We'll start by sending astronauts to an asteroid for the first time in history," he said. "By the mid-2030s, I believe we can send humans to orbit Mars and return them safely to Earth. And a landing on Mars will follow. And I expect to be around to see it."
?
Can a life-support system for Mars voyagers be developed in a quarter century? 
What if Obama means he plans to live a very long life-- so that?"And I expect to be around to see it" could mean more than a century from now? 
?
It's not what people say, it's what they don't say.


      
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 16 13:31:53 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:31:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Chiropractors abandon libel case against Simon Singh
In-Reply-To: <20100416121150.GV1964@leitl.org>
References: <20100416121150.GV1964@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4BC866C9.7080502@satx.rr.com>

<http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/3413/full>

Chiropractors abandon libel case against writer
Friday, 16 April 2010

by Jacqui Hayes
Cosmos Online

The BCA has dropped its case again Simon Singh.

SYDNEY: The British Chiropractors Association has dropped its libel 
action against science writer Simon Singh, following a Court of Appeal 
ruling that Singh had the right to rely on the defence of 'fair comment'.

Singh was sued for libel following an opinion piece he wrote for The 
Guardian newspaper in 2008.

In the article, he wrote that chiropractic - an alternative health care 
treatment that involves manipulating the spine using short but forceful 
hand movements - "promotes bogus treatments".

You can read the original article here: "Beware the Spinal Trap", which 
was republished (with the allegedly libelous word removed) in COSMOS 
magazine in August 2009. 
<http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/print/2891/beware-spinal-trap>

Timeline: 2008 until now

"The BCA brought the claim because it considered that Simon Singh had 
made a serious allegation against its reputation, namely, that the BCA 
promoted treatments that it knew to be 'bogus'," the association said in 
a press release today in London.

In May 2009, a High Court ruling agreed with the British Chiropractors 
Association (BCA), that the article Singh wrote had made a serious 
allegation of dishonesty.

But in February 2010 Singh challenged the ruling in the Court of Appeal. 
In April, he won the right to rely on the defence of 'fair comment' ? 
which means he did not make any factual allegation against the association.

BCA dropped the case

"The decision provides Dr Singh with a defence such that the BCA has 
taken the view that it should withdraw to avoid further legal costs 
being incurred by either side," according to the association.

"The BCA has considered seeking leave to take this matter to the Supreme 
Court and has been advised there are strong grounds for appeal against 
the Court of Appeal judgment.

"However, while it was right to bring this claim at the outset, the BCA 
now feels that the time is right for the matter to draw to a close."

"Two years of hell"

While the BCA abandoned the case, the process has cost Singh over 
200,000 pounds.

"It still staggers me that the British Chiropractic Association and half 
the chiropractors in the UK were making unsubstantiated claims," Singh 
told Sense About Science, a British group that responds to the 
misrepresentation of science.

"It still baffles me that the BCA then dared to sue me for libel and put 
me through two years of hell before I was vindicated."

English libel laws suppress scientific discussions

"Perversely, the BCA have proved an important point by bringing this 
case - that we need a public interest defence that can protect 
discussions of evidence and research, and many other types of 
discussion," said Tracey Brown from Sense About Science,

"English libel law is so intimidating, so expensive, so hostile to 
serious journalists that it has a chilling effect on all areas of 
debate, silencing scientists, journalists, bloggers, human rights 
activists and everyone else who dares to tackle serious matters of 
public interest," said Singh.

"Until we have a proper public interest defence scientists and writers 
are going to have to carry on making the unenviable choice of either 
shying away from hard-hitting debate, or paying through the nose for the 
privilege of defending it," said Singh's solicitor, Robert Dougans.


From patrickfallon at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 00:36:43 2010
From: patrickfallon at gmail.com (Pat Fallon)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 20:36:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] discordant red shifts
Message-ID: <z2i3ea7740d1004171736uf6f9bb2cx4689133913cb5f88@mail.gmail.com>

Halton Arp has long maintained that quasars are not at the
cosmological distance implied by interpreting their red shift as
recessional velocity.

He has published many optical and X-ray examples of what he claims are
high red shift companians [many of them quasars] to lower red shift
galaxies. Since the accepted paradigm would be falsified by this
interpretation of his data, it is claimed that these examples are
"accidents" in that a very much more distant and higher red shifted
object just appears to be interacting with a closer lower red shifted
galaxy.

One of the examples Arp has been pointing out since the 1966
publication of his "Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies" is the active Seyfert
Galaxy NGC 7603 and a much higher red shifted galaxy that appears to
be connected by a luminous bridge or filament of gas. The defenders of
the accepted paradigm dismissed this example [as they had all the
other examples published by Arp in his Atlas] as another "accident" of
perspective.

However, in 2001 two Spanish astronomers got some good spectral data
on 2 star-like objects also seemingly embedded in the luminous
filiment bridge connecting NGC 7603 and the galaxy Arp claimed was its
companion. Both objects turned out to be quasars with much higher red
shifts than NGC 7603. So now it was claimed the apparent alignment of
these 4 objects, all with quite different red shifts, was still just
an accident of our perspective.

NGC 1313, a barred spiral galaxy in the southern sky near the Large
Magellanic Cloud, is sometimes referred to as the ?Starburst? galaxy
because of the bright star-forming regions in the distorted, torn-up
structure of its arms. This galaxy also has seven fainter objects on
either side which seemed to be aligned along its spin axis. When their
red shifts were measured, these 7 objects were said to be quasars and
galaxies a great distance away from NGC 1313.

Arp proposed that a galaxy that is especially active, having distorted
arms and large star-forming regions such as this one, is apt to be in
the process of generating new quasars. One characteristic of quasars
is their strong x-ray emission, and within the bounds of NGC 1313 two
objects have been identified as ultra-luminous x-ray (ULX) sources.
Because these ULXs appear to be within their host galaxy, they cannot
be identified as quasars under standard theory: the high redshifts of
quasars require that they be great distances away. A number of ULXs
have been examined closely and have turned out to be quasars?which
then have been dismissed as ?background objects? seen through ?holes?
in the foreground galaxy.

Arp argues that most ULXs will turn out to be quasars that have been
generated recently by the host galaxy. Furthermore, the line of
higher-redshift objects extending through NGC 1313 corresponds with
the pattern of ejections from active galaxies that Halton Arp and his
colleagues have documented for over three decades: quasars distributed
along the spin axes of active galaxies, together with companion
galaxies that consistently have higher redshifts than the active
central galaxy.

After reading Arp's "Seeing Red"  I am persuaded by his many examples
that the counter-argument that all these discordant red shifts are
accidents of perspective is doomed. How often do you expect accidents
to happen?

Quasars would then be much closer, and not the monsters that are
necessary when they are said to be so far yet still visible.

GhostWolf



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 18 15:43:27 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:43:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] discordant red shifts
In-Reply-To: <z2i3ea7740d1004171736uf6f9bb2cx4689133913cb5f88@mail.gmail.com>
References: <z2i3ea7740d1004171736uf6f9bb2cx4689133913cb5f88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F19E05078104A01ACC1997A8ECF3222@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of Pat Fallon
> Subject: [ExI] discordant red shifts
> 
> Halton Arp has long maintained that quasars are not at the 
> cosmological distance implied by interpreting their red shift 
> as recessional velocity...
> ...After reading Arp's "Seeing Red"  I am persuaded by his many 
> examples that the counter-argument that all these discordant 
> red shifts are accidents of perspective is doomed... GhostWolf

Hi Pat,

This topic fits perfectly with our recent discussion on how observation
seems to suggest something really weird is going on, but we can't accept it
because we have no theoretical basis for explanation.

In this case Arp shows that quasars tend to have a galaxy in the line of
sight between it and us, and uses statistics to suggest that it is just too
weird, that the quasars must somehow be in the galaxy itself.  I racked my
brains on this question in the mid 80s, and recognized that it does sorta
look like that however (and this is a huge however) no matter what I do, I
cannot figure out how a close object can create a huge red shift.  

Even if we theorize that advnaced civilizations figured out how to
accelerate stars with an Mbrain, and we only see the ones going away from us
because the light is blocked from the ones coming toward us, it still
doesn't work.  Reason: there should be a bunch of intermediate velocity
stars, so where are they?

Conclusion: we cannot explain how a star can be massively red shifted, so we
are stuck with having to say that Arp's data is indeed intriguing but his
theory must be wrong.  That's pretty much where I am now.  I have read his
suggested explanations, and don't believe them.  The day someone somewhere
can figure out how a star can be massively red shifted without receding
velocity is the day I send Halton Arp my sincerest and most heartfelt letter
of congratulations and apology for my own egregious skepticism.  

Until then, not.

spike



From patrickfallon at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 17:51:39 2010
From: patrickfallon at gmail.com (Pat Fallon)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 13:51:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] discordant red shifts
In-Reply-To: <6F19E05078104A01ACC1997A8ECF3222@spike>
References: <z2i3ea7740d1004171736uf6f9bb2cx4689133913cb5f88@mail.gmail.com>
	<6F19E05078104A01ACC1997A8ECF3222@spike>
Message-ID: <n2z3ea7740d1004181051o5234df59xc72caaaeef4a3682@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Spike,

Thank you for the reply...

> This topic fits perfectly with our recent discussion on how observation
> seems to suggest something really weird is going on, but we can't accept it
> because we have no theoretical basis for explanation.
>...
> Conclusion: we cannot explain how a star can be massively red shifted, so we
> are stuck with having to say that Arp's data is indeed intriguing but his
> theory must be wrong.  That's pretty much where I am now.  I have read his
> suggested explanations, and don't believe them.  The day someone somewhere
> can figure out how a star can be massively red shifted without receding
> velocity is the day I send Halton Arp my sincerest and most heartfelt letter
> of congratulations and apology for my own egregious skepticism.


But one could use the same logic and ask that if quasars are indeed at
the cosmological distances suggested by interpreting their red shift
as recessional velocity, what would explain the prodigious energy
output that allow them to be seen at that distance?

The most luminous quasars radiate at a rate that can exceed the output
of average galaxies, equivalent to one trillion suns. This radiation
is emitted across the spectrum, almost equally, from X-rays to the
far-infrared with a peak in the ultraviolet-optical bands, with some
quasars also being strong sources of radio emission and of gamma-rays.
Some quasars display changes in luminosity which are rapid in the
optical range and even more rapid in the X-rays. This implies that
they are small (Solar System sized or less) because an object cannot
change faster than the time it takes light to travel from one end to
the other.

No larger than our solar system with the energy output accross the
whole spectra equal to a trillion suns.

I find it easier to accept some of the explanations proposed for how
light from a star could be massively red shifted, than the proposed
mechanisms for quasar energy production.

I agree completely that paradigms are usually not overthrown save by
new ones. However, I also think that the hallmark of a failed theory
is ad-hoc adjustments to fit new, paradoxical observations. I have the
sinking suspicion that the last 50 years or so of the Big Bang will
prove to be a collosal swerve off the road to understanding our
universe...I keep waiting for the news flash on the nightly news where
they interview some astrophysicist who sheepishly says, "boy, we were
WAYYYYY off."

Pat


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 18 22:13:32 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:13:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] discordant red shifts
In-Reply-To: <n2z3ea7740d1004181051o5234df59xc72caaaeef4a3682@mail.gmail.com>
References: <z2i3ea7740d1004171736uf6f9bb2cx4689133913cb5f88@mail.gmail.com><6F19E05078104A01ACC1997A8ECF3222@spike>
	<n2z3ea7740d1004181051o5234df59xc72caaaeef4a3682@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC2CD625D9B343DD9AC5F7E535058907@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of Pat Fallon
> Subject: Re: [ExI] discordant red shifts
> 
> Hi Spike,
> 
> Thank you for the reply...
> 
> > ...The day someone somewhere  can figure out how a star can be 
> >massively red shifted without receding  velocity is the day I send 
> >Halton Arp my sincerest and most heartfelt letter  of 
> congratulations and apology for my own egregious skepticism.
> 
> 
> But one could use the same logic and ask that if quasars are 
> indeed at the cosmological distances suggested by 
> interpreting their red shift as recessional velocity, what 
> would explain the prodigious energy output that allow them to 
> be seen at that distance?... Pat

Hi Pat, ja I do fully agree it is amazing, mind boggling, to imagine an
eccretion disc so damn hot and dense that it spews mind-boggling amounts of
energy sufficent to appear as they do.  It is puzzling that whatever caused
those discs apparently stopped doing it relatively soon after the big bang.
These are things I cannot explain, however it is possible for me to imagine
the existence of a superheated eccretion disc a few weeks or even a few days
in diameter.  I could even imagine that globs of matter undergo spontaneous
fusion just before it falls over the event horizon, even though quasar
theory doesn't have that in there as far as I know.  I tried to use that
line of  reasoning to imagine black holes nearby, associated with Arp
galaxies, but I can't get the equations to work out, without having the
black holes bigger than their Arp galaxies, which would cause major
gravitational distortion to the galaxies.

That being said, if anyone can find a mistake the reasoning for the quasars,
and can explain these puzzling fireballs, I will rejoice loudly in the
streets until the nice men in the white coats carry me away.  This quasar
puzzle has been bugging me for over 30 yrs now.

spike



From max at maxmore.com  Mon Apr 19 02:46:04 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:46:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
Message-ID: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Poll: 78 percent don't trust big government
Trust numbers 'rarely get this low,' survey sponsor says
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36629520/ns/politics/



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 19 04:58:35 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:58:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <9D9B632B9EF240809ACB724CFBCEEF7E@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Max More
...
> Poll: 78 percent don't trust big government Trust numbers 
> 'rarely get this low,' survey sponsor says 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36629520/ns/politics/

Ja, well, government rarely gets reaches this level of distrustworthiness.
This is the first time in my nearly half a century of life that I have seen
a government so worthy of distrust.  What part of REPRESENTative do they not
understand?

spike






From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 07:59:52 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 08:59:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] discordant red shifts
In-Reply-To: <AC2CD625D9B343DD9AC5F7E535058907@spike>
References: <z2i3ea7740d1004171736uf6f9bb2cx4689133913cb5f88@mail.gmail.com>
	<6F19E05078104A01ACC1997A8ECF3222@spike>
	<n2z3ea7740d1004181051o5234df59xc72caaaeef4a3682@mail.gmail.com>
	<AC2CD625D9B343DD9AC5F7E535058907@spike>
Message-ID: <h2uee50357e1004190059ud53ee756xef77428614c1bb38@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/18/10, spike wrote:
>  Hi Pat, ja I do fully agree it is amazing, mind boggling, to imagine an
>  eccretion disc so damn hot and dense that it spews mind-boggling amounts of
>  energy sufficent to appear as they do.  It is puzzling that whatever caused
>  those discs apparently stopped doing it relatively soon after the big bang.
>  These are things I cannot explain, however it is possible for me to imagine
>  the existence of a superheated eccretion disc a few weeks or even a few days
>  in diameter.  I could even imagine that globs of matter undergo spontaneous
>  fusion just before it falls over the event horizon, even though quasar
>  theory doesn't have that in there as far as I know.  I tried to use that
>  line of  reasoning to imagine black holes nearby, associated with Arp
>  galaxies, but I can't get the equations to work out, without having the
>  black holes bigger than their Arp galaxies, which would cause major
>  gravitational distortion to the galaxies.
>
>  That being said, if anyone can find a mistake the reasoning for the quasars,
>  and can explain these puzzling fireballs, I will rejoice loudly in the
>  streets until the nice men in the white coats carry me away.  This quasar
>  puzzle has been bugging me for over 30 yrs now.
>
>


I'm calling the men in the white coats now.   ;)

It is suggested that quasars have jets and the exceptional brightness
happens when we line up with the jet.

Quasars seem to be a feature of the early universe when a lot of
material was available to be eaten by the central black hole of the
galaxy. The quasar eats material at a prodigious rate that cannot be
maintained. So in the older universe, after the excess material has
been eaten, the galaxy becomes a 'normal' galaxy with a quiet central
black hole. The exception is when two older galaxies collide and more
material can fire up the quasar again.

See:
<http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/active/quasars.html>
also
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_galactic_nucleus>

BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 11:24:31 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 13:24:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] teleXLR8 - Anders Sandberg on Neuroselves and exoselves:
	distributed cognition inside and outside brains
Message-ID: <i2ke68fc1101004190424t36627191t9c9d7f15672dff1e@mail.gmail.com>

http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/04/telexlr8-anders-sandberg-on-neuroselves.html

Anders Sandberg has inaugurated the teleXLR8 beta program in Teleplace
on Sunday, April 18, with a great talk on Neuroselves and exoselves:
distributed cognition inside and outside brains. After the talk there
has been a lively questions and answers session.

The talk and Q/A video is available on blip.tv. Some of the
participants, including Anders himself, had intermittent Internet
connection problems. Other technical problems were solved in real
time, and the video, which has been recorded using the native
Teleplace recording feature without post-processing and editing,
includes some very useful advice on how to properly set up sound
devices and PPT presentations.

At the end of the talk Anders, following Kevin Warwick, said that the
really important cognitive enhancements will be communication
enhancements able to boost our collective intelligence, and that any
method that improves communication is going to have a tremendous
practical and ethical importance. I think this talk, enabled by modern
interactive telepresence technology, has provided a good example of
this concept.


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 19:01:43 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:01:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: DIY Bio-regulations
In-Reply-To: <o2j468b1a401004190119nf485c48dg9a7aae343610c51b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbd4411a-c12e-477f-b4ad-5ce67900ca7d@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
	<h2s7730d1c91004180927wa00e4f0dp80425adbdff24a99@mail.gmail.com>
	<238fad39-65c3-48dc-82be-09ca8e60f87d@c36g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
	<t2j468b1a401004190110oc8f5b0a1w3aefd9876d7440f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<o2j468b1a401004190119nf485c48dg9a7aae343610c51b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <i2p55ad6af71004191201yd06eb465jbb2b59e900a3d2ac@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Cathal Garvey <cathalgarvey at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: DIY Bio-regulations
To: diybio at googlegroups.com


..are you asking "What do we think of synthetic biology superweapons,
whether invented to kill, control or terrorise?"

If so, it's my opinion that biowarfare is unlikely to present a
serious option in the near future fir any end of a conflict.

Recall first that biowarfare is an ancient concept and tactic. It has
never been popular because of the risk of backlash. Nowadays it's even
less likely to be popular.

If you're a powerful country, you can afford a decent bioweapon but
your people will need treatment or vaccination before you use it:
nukes are cheaper.

If you're a smaller player, your people will get sicker and die more
if you employ a bioweapon. Your larger foe can afford to develop and
administer treatment.

Can a bioweapon be precisely tailored to kill only certain
ethnicities? Not without harrowing difficulty, and not effectively.

Because all races are ultimately the same barring biologically trivial
idiosyncracies, you'd need to use genetic logic to detect those
differences.

To preserve this state of exceptional, disadvantageous specificity,
you'd have to make the agent very genetically stable. Which leaves it
absolutely vulnerable to immune defence or vaccination. If you don't,
it'll revert to a more general specificity and you'll catch your own
racist plague.

My short answer: the self replicating power of synthetic biology makes
it exceptionally powerful as an industrial, remedial or novel
technology. But as a weapon, it's not practical.

On Apr 19, 2010 7:16 a.m., "etienne thillaye"
<etienne.thillaye at gmail.com> wrote:

Just, since I see that nobody talks about those revolutions yet in
France, which will be the same kind as the nuclear weapon in 1944
(which would explode, or not), translating into reality Kant's
predictions about universal history, shall I... Well...sorry boring
subject...

On 18 avr, 18:27, "Daniel C." <dcrooks... at gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun,
Apr 18, 2010 at 12:55 AM, eti...

> <etienne.thill... at gmail.com> wrote: > > Ever been in love ? Is that genetics ? How to rule emotion...

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/diybio?hl=en.

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "DIYbio" group. To po...

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "DIYbio" group.
To post to this group, send email to diybio at googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
diybio+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/diybio?hl=en.



-- 
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 19:09:33 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:09:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: DIY Bio-regulations
In-Reply-To: <i2p55ad6af71004191201yd06eb465jbb2b59e900a3d2ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbd4411a-c12e-477f-b4ad-5ce67900ca7d@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
	<h2s7730d1c91004180927wa00e4f0dp80425adbdff24a99@mail.gmail.com>
	<238fad39-65c3-48dc-82be-09ca8e60f87d@c36g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
	<t2j468b1a401004190110oc8f5b0a1w3aefd9876d7440f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<o2j468b1a401004190119nf485c48dg9a7aae343610c51b@mail.gmail.com>
	<i2p55ad6af71004191201yd06eb465jbb2b59e900a3d2ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <k2qee50357e1004191209q497ea984ia0b7f3724bcbdcc1@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/19/10, Bryan Bishop wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>  From: Cathal Garvey
>  Date: Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 3:19 AM
>  Subject: Re: DIY Bio-regulations
>  To: diybio at googlegroups.com
>
>
>  ..are you asking "What do we think of synthetic biology superweapons,
>  whether invented to kill, control or terrorise?"
>
>  If so, it's my opinion that biowarfare is unlikely to present a
>  serious option in the near future fir any end of a conflict.
>
>

I agree that nations are unlikely to develop these weapons.

But suicide bombers don't reason like that.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 20 02:00:07 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:00:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] genie scott at stanford
Message-ID: <7B01395C96FB4C65A85D454F40593D1D@spike>

I was studying today the history of WW2, since I know almost nothing about
it.  Yes I know, that is reprehensible.  Specifically I was studying the
Stalingrad campaign, where the Germans went waaay up into Russia and froze
their Nazi asses.  
 
Too often forget how very good we have it.  We never had to go against our
will and fight a horrifying ground war under hopeless brutal conditions.  It
is perhaps a disadvantage to being an atheist: I often wish I had a god to
thank for my good fortune.
 
I am grateful for many things.  One of the things for which I am most
grateful is being born late enough in history to be able to get lectures
like this one, right in my own home, to able to listen to it on my own time,
break it up in segments at my own convenience, repeat any section I want as
many times as I want, and all of it free as the wind.  How could we have any
other attitude besides dynamic optimism?  
 
It is a great time to be an information pacman.  Do we have it made or what?
We are living a dream.
 
Genie Scott gives an excellent lecture on Darwin:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0HEcBjS5AE
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0HEcBjS5AE&playnext_from=TL&videos=fXLvHUrb
Mmg> &playnext_from=TL&videos=fXLvHUrbMmg
 
spike
 
 
 
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 20 15:58:20 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] anoxic loriciferans discovered
In-Reply-To: <3EE67F4B2D474C0D9CC7DCF268BDD278@spike>
References: <3EE67F4B2D474C0D9CC7DCF268BDD278@spike>
Message-ID: <85911.90609.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I wonder if they are from a line that was always anoxic or merely adapted to anoxic conditions.

Regards,

Dan



________________________________
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 10:59:08 AM
Subject: [ExI] anoxic loriciferans discovered


?
This is a biiig deal, with far reaching implications for evolutionary science:
?
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/08/strange-creature-lives-oxygen/?test=latestnews
?
If multicellular life can live without oxygen, it can exist in a lot of places.??This might impact oil formation theory as well.
?
spike


      
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 16:54:03 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:54:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] anoxic loriciferans discovered
In-Reply-To: <85911.90609.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <3EE67F4B2D474C0D9CC7DCF268BDD278@spike>
	<85911.90609.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m2gee50357e1004200954ia4029e32vf94724a96de7a710@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/20/10, Dan wrote:
> I wonder if they are from a line that was always anoxic or merely adapted to
> anoxic conditions.
>
>

I fund a paper discussing this. (14 page pdf file)

<http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1741-7007-8-32.pdf>

The oceans were originally anoxic when these creatures developed in
the pre-Cambrian era.  So they are a remnant of primitive life.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 16:54:03 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:54:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] anoxic loriciferans discovered
In-Reply-To: <85911.90609.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <3EE67F4B2D474C0D9CC7DCF268BDD278@spike>
	<85911.90609.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m2gee50357e1004200954ia4029e32vf94724a96de7a710@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/20/10, Dan wrote:
> I wonder if they are from a line that was always anoxic or merely adapted to
> anoxic conditions.
>
>

I fund a paper discussing this. (14 page pdf file)

<http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1741-7007-8-32.pdf>

The oceans were originally anoxic when these creatures developed in
the pre-Cambrian era.  So they are a remnant of primitive life.

BillK


From scerir at libero.it  Tue Apr 20 18:00:38 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:00:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] anoxic loriciferans discovered
Message-ID: <4649886.1017761271786438508.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

spike:
> This is a biiig deal, with far reaching implications for evolutionary
> science:
> http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/08/strange-creature-lives-oxygen/?
test=latestnews


a pdf is here!
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1741-7007-8-30.pdf



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 01:51:55 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:51:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] genie scott at stanford
In-Reply-To: <7B01395C96FB4C65A85D454F40593D1D@spike>
References: <7B01395C96FB4C65A85D454F40593D1D@spike>
Message-ID: <n2u2d6187671004201851q4cc77ed2o1512889bef274ff4@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
We never had to go against our will and fight a horrifying ground war under
hopeless brutal conditions.
>>>

Uhm...., Vietnam?  But I suppose the "hopelessly brutal conditions" were
much more suffered by those on the receiving end of U.S. military power over
there.

I hope this scenario never happens...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/99/fortress-america

John
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 21 02:31:43 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:31:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] genie scott at stanford
In-Reply-To: <n2u2d6187671004201851q4cc77ed2o1512889bef274ff4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7B01395C96FB4C65A85D454F40593D1D@spike>
	<n2u2d6187671004201851q4cc77ed2o1512889bef274ff4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A84AA3FC7D32419B9E89A6229AF265D0@spike>

 
...On Behalf Of John Grigg
	Subject: Re: [ExI] genie scott at stanford
	
	
	Spike wrote:
	We never had to go against our will and fight a horrifying ground
war under hopeless brutal conditions.
	>>>
	 
	Uhm...., Vietnam?  ...	John


Johnny, are you old enough to have served in that conflict?  Neither am I,
and I am one of the senior guys hanging out on ExI-chat now I fear.  Have we
any wartime vets here?  Jeff Davis?  We have a few guys here who I think
were protesters during that period, but I don't recall any being in the
service.  Anyone here serve in the Middle East?

We are a lucky bunch.




From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 21 12:08:40 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 05:08:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
Message-ID: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

The current issue of Newsweek says iPAD will revolutionize it all, including "reading" and "watching".

What is it going to be? wall size HD? a holodeck? why the hype? it is
good enough on the face of it; why the oversell? why do these things
have to be made to sound like the Second Coming?


      
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr 21 18:21:46 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:21:46 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin
In-Reply-To: <mailman.475.1271780710.17873.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <275242.39586.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

My non-believing friends are circulating the following around their facebook pages:

http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2010/04/boobquake-is-coming.html

Apparently, some atheists in Austin are organising a display of flesh in the name of scientific experimentation, just to prove one particular islamic cleric's idea wrong. I hope if any Austin inhabitants are out and about that day they can provide us with observations to back up this vital experiment.

Tom


      



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Apr 21 19:11:49 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin
In-Reply-To: <275242.39586.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <302283.98422.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Unfortunately, it's an easy out to claim that God
only does this to people who profess to believe in
the first place.  Why bother wasting such warnings
on those who are ignorant of the true word of
Allah?

--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 11:21 AM
> My non-believing friends are
> circulating the following around their facebook pages:
> 
> http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2010/04/boobquake-is-coming.html
> 
> Apparently, some atheists in Austin are organising a
> display of flesh in the name of scientific experimentation,
> just to prove one particular islamic cleric's idea wrong. I
> hope if any Austin inhabitants are out and about that day
> they can provide us with observations to back up this vital
> experiment.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> ? ? ? 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 21 19:35:50 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:35:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin
In-Reply-To: <275242.39586.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.475.1271780710.17873.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<275242.39586.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39FCE4AD4E6940B98409D45C8B341494@spike>

 
>...On Behalf Of Tom Nowell
...
> Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin 
>...
> http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2010/04/boobquake-is-coming.html
> 
> Apparently, some atheists in Austin are organising a display 
> of flesh in the name of scientific experimentation, just to 
> prove one particular islamic cleric's idea wrong...Tom

Austin schmaustin, Tom, California is the place you wanna be.  Besides, I
might have trouble getting plane reservations in time.  

I do sincerely invite all provocatively dressed women to come to the San
Jose area.  There is a loaded strike-slip fault less than six miles from my
home that warns us from time to time, the cluster you see on this map:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US2/36.38.-123.-121.
php

I can take you to the exact site, up in the foothills, and you can do your
damnedest to piss off whatever deity you wish, and I will cheer you on and
take pictures.

If I put the photos on Facebook, but they aren't primarily about faces
exactly, would it still be called Facebook?  Do you suppose they would
change the name?

spike










From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 20:29:38 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:29:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <x2lee50357e1004211329wfd451c30k336e2f8c66d4aca7@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/21/10, Post Futurist wrote:
> The current issue of Newsweek says iPAD will revolutionize it all,
> including "reading" and "watching".
> What is it going to be? wall size HD? a holodeck? why the hype?
> it is good enough on the face of it; why the oversell? why do these
> things have to be made to sound like the Second Coming?
>
>

It's called marketing.

The iPad is an entertainment device. The ads are not aimed at techie
computer types. They are not the main market. Apple is aiming to sell
millions of iPads to people with spare cash who want to watch movies,
listen to music, read books (even!), check their Facebook page every
15 minutes, etc.

As one reviewer said, the acme of computer technology is now aimed at
a market segment that grunts and points.  ;)

BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 02:03:13 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:03:13 +1000
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p2mf21c22e31004211903x5591445w57b3b9b1d6ef422@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/21 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>
>
> The current issue of Newsweek says iPAD will revolutionize it all, including "reading" and "watching".
> What is it going to be? wall size HD? a holodeck? why the hype? it is good enough on the face of it; why the oversell? why do these things have to be made to sound like the Second Coming?

Anyone here actually have one?


--
Stathis Papaioannou


From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 22 03:11:17 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:11:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <p2mf21c22e31004211903x5591445w57b3b9b1d6ef422@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <437590.51747.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

What's a mystery is not why its marketers would hype it, but why Newsweek would.
Newspeak works in mysterious ways.



      
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 05:12:44 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:42:44 +0930
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <437590.51747.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <p2mf21c22e31004211903x5591445w57b3b9b1d6ef422@mail.gmail.com>
	<437590.51747.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <l2t710b78fc1004212212xa732d4fdo581c4b5283c95243@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/22 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>
>
> What's a mystery is not why its marketers would hype it, but why Newsweek would.
> Newspeak works in mysterious ways.

How many Apple ads did Newsweek carry in that issue?

--
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 06:13:58 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:43:58 +0930
Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin
In-Reply-To: <39FCE4AD4E6940B98409D45C8B341494@spike>
References: <mailman.475.1271780710.17873.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<275242.39586.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<39FCE4AD4E6940B98409D45C8B341494@spike>
Message-ID: <h2r710b78fc1004212313rd8e69320m90f996efc84162ce@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 April 2010 05:05, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>...On Behalf Of Tom Nowell
> ...
>> Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin
>>...
>> http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2010/04/boobquake-is-coming.html
>>
>> Apparently, some atheists in Austin are organising a display
>> of flesh in the name of scientific experimentation, just to
>> prove one particular islamic cleric's idea wrong...Tom
>
> Austin schmaustin, Tom, California is the place you wanna be. ?Besides, I
> might have trouble getting plane reservations in time.
>
> I do sincerely invite all provocatively dressed women to come to the San
> Jose area. ?There is a loaded strike-slip fault less than six miles from my
> home that warns us from time to time, the cluster you see on this map:
>
> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US2/36.38.-123.-121.
> php
>
> I can take you to the exact site, up in the foothills, and you can do your
> damnedest to piss off whatever deity you wish, and I will cheer you on and
> take pictures.
>
> If I put the photos on Facebook, but they aren't primarily about faces
> exactly, would it still be called Facebook? ?Do you suppose they would
> change the name?
>
> spike

Breastbook.com is up for sale apparently.

-- 
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz



From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Apr 22 07:18:05 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:18:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>

Max More wrote:
> Poll: 78 percent don't trust big government
> Trust numbers 'rarely get this low,' survey sponsor says
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36629520/ns/politics/

Since a relatively small government, even one designed to stay small by 
some very smart guys, ended up being really really big I think the 
conclusion is that we shouldn't trust government at all, no matter its size.

- s



From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 08:01:53 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:01:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
Message-ID: <o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>

We Italians don't trust governments, big or small. Ask anyone on the
street, and they will say that the government is a big machine to
steal money from the citizens, and all politicians are greedy thieves
who go into politics to steal money.Yet, the government is still here,
even in our country, and shows no sign of going away or becoming
smaller. Actually, over the last 35 years I have only seen government
becoming bigger and bigger and more intrusive nanny-states, everywhere
(even in the US).

How to run things without government? I don't know of any alternative
system that can work in practice. If there is a viable system without
government (or with a minimally small government), how to implement it
in practice?

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 9:18 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Max More wrote:
>>
>> Poll: 78 percent don't trust big government
>> Trust numbers 'rarely get this low,' survey sponsor says
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36629520/ns/politics/
>
> Since a relatively small government, even one designed to stay small by some
> very smart guys, ended up being really really big I think the conclusion is
> that we shouldn't trust government at all, no matter its size.
>
> - s
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Apr 22 09:03:34 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 02:03:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
	<o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD010E6.1060600@mac.com>

Giulio Prisco wrote:
> We Italians don't trust governments, big or small. Ask anyone on the
> street, and they will say that the government is a big machine to
> steal money from the citizens, and all politicians are greedy thieves
> who go into politics to steal money.Yet, the government is still here,
> even in our country, and shows no sign of going away or becoming
> smaller. Actually, over the last 35 years I have only seen government
> becoming bigger and bigger and more intrusive nanny-states, everywhere
> (even in the US).
> 
> How to run things without government? I don't know of any alternative
> system that can work in practice. If there is a viable system without
> government (or with a minimally small government), how to implement it
> in practice?

Well, we had a small government in the US before the 16th Amendment 
allegedly made a general tax ok although expressly forbidden in the 
Constitution as I read it.  At the time we passed it no one believed the 
tax rate would every be over 5%.  Big laugh.  Give a government the 
ability to tax everything just be saying so and it will get big and 
bloated fast and power hungry.  Even then we didn't have that big a 
government until post "Great Society".

So there have been historical instances of much smaller governments even 
in quite powerful countries.   I don't think you need government at all 
personally but that is a longish subject.  Besides Murray Rothbard made 
the case a lot better than I can.

- samantha



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 22 13:20:52 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin
In-Reply-To: <302283.98422.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <302283.98422.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <474160.24774.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As a lesson to believers and to convert non-believers?

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 3:11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] An atheist event in Austin

Unfortunately, it's an easy out to claim that God
only does this to people who profess to believe in
the first place.? Why bother wasting such warnings
on those who are ignorant of the true word of
Allah?


      



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 22 17:23:14 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:23:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
	<o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD08602.9000908@satx.rr.com>

On 4/22/2010 3:01 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote:

> How to run things without government? I don't know of any alternative
> system that can work in practice. If there is a viable system without
> government (or with a minimally small government), how to implement it
> in practice?

Cyril Kornbluth wrote a rather famous novel titled THE SYNDIC, which 
describes the replacement of govt by the Mafia (as I recall); it reads 
like a utopia, although Kornbluth meant it as a bitter satire... Might 
be just the thing for Italy.

Damien Broderick


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 17:26:52 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:26:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <4BD08602.9000908@satx.rr.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
	<o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD08602.9000908@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <g2i580930c21004221026p8af478bcxf03892f49360b332@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 April 2010 19:23, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Cyril Kornbluth wrote a rather famous novel titled THE SYNDIC, which
> describes the replacement of govt by the Mafia (as I recall); it reads like
> a utopia, although Kornbluth meant it as a bitter satire... Might be just
> the thing for Italy.

I am afraid the old Mafia of once has been corrupted by its
long-standing relationships with our political ?lites. :-D

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 23 01:07:09 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] How Big is the Ideal Government? was Re: 78 percent don't
	trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <4BD010E6.1060600@mac.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
	<o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD010E6.1060600@mac.com>
Message-ID: <599382.1154.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 2:03:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
> 
> Giulio Prisco wrote:
> We Italians don't trust governments, big or small. 
> Ask anyone on the
> street, and they will say that the government is a big 
> machine to
> steal money from the citizens, and all politicians are greedy 
> thieves
> who go into politics to steal money.Yet, the government is still 
> here,
> even in our country, and shows no sign of going away or 
> becoming
> smaller. Actually, over the last 35 years I have only seen 
> government
> becoming bigger and bigger and more intrusive nanny-states, 
> everywhere
> (even in the US).

In some sense the size of government is necessary for the checks and balances of a parliamentary form of government to operate. Sure dictatorships are more efficient than beauracracies but what does efficiency matter when the aims of the dictator?are self serving and corrupt? Better to let them waste money holding commitee meetings on how best to change lightbulbs than have the whim of a madman start a war or something. In addition, I am somewhat skeptical about what the "size of government" really means.?If you are simply talking about the absolute number of federal employees, then it?is natural for it to rise along with the population growth of the country overall. The current federal payroll according the?Bureau of Labor and Statistics?is currently about 2.8 million or about 0.9% of the U.S. population. This figure is dwarfed by those employed by state and local governments (19.7 million).
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm

Furthermore federal government is listed as a rapidly declining industry sector in this table.
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_203.htm

Curiously there are?approximately as?many federal employees now as there were?total Americans in 1780 but since then our population has grown over a hundred fold. So were there less than 2800 federal employees back in 1800? I don't know. 

I am curious if any of the Italians (or any non-Americans really)?on the list know the percentage of their population that work for their respective governments? If so please post.
?
> How to run things without 
> government?

Well the number of possible alternatives?is limited by our primate natures which make us naturally heirarchial. We tend?to act like we need alpha-monkeys to pound?on us if we start swiping bananas from our neighbors.?Sadly the weight of historic and current evidence is that humanity?either governs itself through the rule of law or the rule of men with guns.?Take Somalia for example. It should be a anarchocapitalist paradise but instead it is a Hobbesian jungle. It has a per capita GDP of $600. Compare this with neighboring Ethiopia with a corrupt communist regime?and a per capita GDP of $900 and it seems that even a very flawed government is better than no government at all. 

> I don't know of any alternative
> system that can work in 
> practice. If there is a viable system without
> government (or with a 
> minimally small government), how to implement it
> in 
> practice?

I am not sure it is simply size that is the problem. One could imagine distributed forms of government where *everyone* has some role in governance beyond a simple binary vote every 2-4 years. Perhaps a circular hierarchy for example. Imagine a hypothetical society wherein the population was equally divided into three castes: Rocks, Paper, and Scissors. Each would take orders from one caste and lord it over the next by the established rules of the universal childrens' game. Primate instincts for dominance and submission are satisfied and no one person?has the power to break the world.

Well, we had a small government in the US before the 16th 
> Amendment allegedly made a general tax ok although expressly forbidden in the 
> Constitution as I read it.? At the time we passed it no one believed the 
> tax rate would every be over 5%.? Big laugh.? Give a government the 
> ability to tax everything just be saying so and it will get big and bloated fast 
> and power hungry.? Even then we didn't have that big a government until 
> post "Great Society".

We didn't have that big a society until post "Baby Boom". Security and freedom are somewhat mutually exclusive. If you want government to protect your property from petty warloards and armed criminals, expect to pay taxes. If you want to get rid of taxes altogether, then?expect to get into a lot of gunfights with people who want your banana. 

So there have been historical instances of much 
> smaller governments even in quite powerful countries.? I don't think you 
> need government at all personally but that is a longish subject.? Besides 
> Murray Rothbard made the case a lot better than I can.

What would Rothbard say about Somalia, I wonder? There are not many places after all where one can buy assault rifles and rocket launchers at the local swap meet.


Stuart LaForge 

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert 


      




From reasonerkevin at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 23 02:16:10 2010
From: reasonerkevin at yahoo.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:16:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] How Big is the Ideal Government? was Re: 78 percent don't
	trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <599382.1154.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
	<o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD010E6.1060600@mac.com>
	<599382.1154.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <972891.74786.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




>In some sense the size of government is necessary for the checks and balances of a parliamentary form of government to operate. Sure dictatorships are more efficient than >beauracracies but what does efficiency matter when the aims of the dictator are self serving and corrupt? Better to let them waste money holding commitee meetings on how best to >change lightbulbs than have the whim of a madman start a war or something. In addition, I am somewhat skeptical about what the "size of government" really means. If you are simply >talking about the absolute number of federal employees, then it is natural for it to rise along with the population growth of the country overall. The current federal payroll according >the Bureau of Labor and Statistics is currently about 2.8 million or about 0.9% of the U.S. population. This figure is dwarfed by those employed by state and local governments (19.7 >million).
>http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm

Some really good points here. I certainly prefer the "big" government we have to the smaller "governments" of Somalia, Congo, and other such places. Although government slows capitalism, I'm certain that's not an entirely bad thing. I think the key is to create an environment where the people with money feel comfortable investing it. A big bloated government that can't move very quickly to change anything at all and is shackled by it's own bureaucracy is much safer than one where some twit can get some crazy idea and make drastic changes quickly. I don't recall that ever being considered in the frequent debates about lilbertarianism.  
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Apr 23 04:12:59 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:12:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Big is the Ideal Government? was Re: 78 percent don't
 trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <972891.74786.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
	<o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD010E6.1060600@mac.com>
	<599382.1154.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<972891.74786.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BD11E4B.8050406@mac.com>

Kevin Freels wrote:
> 
> 
>  >In some sense the size of government is necessary for the checks and 
> balances of a parliamentary form of government to operate.\

Come again?  The only thing necessary is for the different forms to be 
equivalent functional size to perform the checks and balances.  The 
smaller one portion is the smaller the others should be also.

  Sure
> dictatorships are more efficient than >beauracracies but what does 
> efficiency matter when the aims of the dictator are self serving and 
> corrupt? 

Two questionable assumptions:

1) that this is the case, that dictatorships are more efficient.  Please 
point me to the dictatorship that has proven itself more efficient over 
any reasonable length of time;

2) Malevolence, except toward freedom, does not seem required in order 
to be a dictator.  There have been many dictators that started out with 
  declared (and often admired at the time) positive intent.  It didn't 
matter what the intent was much usually though.

Better to let them waste money holding commitee meetings on how
> best to >change lightbulbs than have the whim of a madman start a war or 
> something. In addition, I am somewhat skeptical about what the "size of 
> government" really means. If you are simply >talking about the absolute 
> number of federal employees, then it is natural for it to rise along 
> with the population growth of the country overall.

It far outstripped relative growth of population in the last 100 years. 
  And that also assumes that there is some legitimate per-capita use for 
government.

> The current federal 
> payroll according >the Bureau of Labor and Statistics is currently about 
> 2.8 million or about 0.9% of the U.S. population.

I am certain that figure is much to low.  What year and which person 
receiving a government paycheck are included?  Troops, state and local 
as well as federal workers?  Fire, police, etc where not private?  All 
must be included that paid out of government fund (almost always from 
either taxation or increasing debt).




  This figure is dwarfed
> by those employed by state and local governments (19.7 >million).
>>http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_201.htm
>

Yes.  You didn't think I was talking only about the federal government 
(though I think the above undercounted even that), did you?

> Some really good points here. I certainly prefer the "big" government we 
> have to the smaller "governments" of Somalia, Congo, and other such 
> places. Although government slows capitalism, I'm certain that's not an 
> entirely bad thing.

How so?  What do you think capitalism is?  Do you think that is what we 
really have now?


  I think the key is to create an environment where
> the people with money feel comfortable investing it.

Getting the government out of the market would make them *much* more 
comfortable.


  A big bloated
> government that can't move very quickly to change anything at all and is 
> shackled by it's own bureaucracy is much safer than one where some twit 
> can get some crazy idea and make drastic changes quickly. 

You are missing something crucial.  The government gobbles up about 50% 
of everything.  Despite having done so we are in debt to almost 87% of 
the entire GDP.  The government is unarguably too big and bloated as it 
is destroying the country economically.  It also is too big because it 
is involved and regulates much too much of everyone's life.  It has also 
promised much much more than it can actually deliver over the next few 
decades.  There is no argument that it is out of control in size, 
function and costs.


I don't recall
> that ever being considered in the frequent debates about lilbertarianism. 
> 

That's because most of that argument is set on misunderstood or 
misapplied concepts and shaky assumptions.

- s


From nohone at slingshot.co.nz  Thu Apr 22 23:30:59 2010
From: nohone at slingshot.co.nz (nohone)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:30:59 -0000
Subject: [ExI] 78 percent don't trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201004190312.o3J3CqxR007696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BCFF82D.7070203@mac.com>
	<o2ne68fc1101004220101laa32eecan45f455ee0edbc60c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.fh9u4om7elotyh@nikita>

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:01:53 +1300, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> How to run things without government? I don't know of any alternative
> system that can work in practice. If there is a viable system without
> government (or with a minimally small government), how to implement it
> in practice?


Sounds like you need to hunt down a copy of Noam Chomsky's book on Anarchism, since in part it describes the anarchist communities that arose during the Spanish civil war.

Seems that it worked well for a number of years, alas before some other big governments found out and insisted at gun point that they really did need a government to rule over them after all.


 


From algaenymph at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 06:35:18 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:35:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Libertarianism (and Socialism) Assumes Perfect Morality
Message-ID: <4BD13FA6.6000906@gmail.com>

What bugs me most about mailing lists about transhumanism is that so 
most of the time is spent either ranting about either Big Government or 
Libertarian Selfishness.

Do I want a small efficient government that keeps out of our personal 
business?  Yes.  Do I think it can work.  Sure, if people play by the 
rules.  /Do/ they?  Nope.

Do I want a government which devotes resources to out well-being?  Yes.  
Do I think it can work.  Sure, if people play by the rules.  /Do/ they?  
Nope.

Can we please, /please/ focus on solving problems related to 
transhumanism?  Making sure it actually /happens/.  Making sure it 
doesn't go wrong.  Even better if can I get replies that *don't* boil 
down to:

"Oh, but we /are/.  You see, Big Government etc."

"Oh, but we /are/.  You see, Libertarian Selfishness etc."
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 23 16:40:27 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:40:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] vatican to pay for stem cell research
Message-ID: <4C5579A56FA446FC8EB9E40538B989FC@spike>

In all the debate of stem cell research we had here a few years ago, this is
one we never thought of that I recall.  If we shift the focus away from
embryonic stem cells to adult stem cell research, we get the vatican to pay
for it:
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_STEM_CELLS?SITE=1010WINS
<http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_STEM_CELLS?SITE=1010WINS&
SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT> &SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
 
This is so cool on so many levels.  The most important of which of course is
that I don't pay for it.  Another aspect is that it gives the vatican a
chance to make atonement for all the child molestation over all those years.
Another reason this is better than having governments pay is that the
vatican has plenty of money, whereas governments everywhere are under
crushing and ever increasing debt.  I have never heard of the vatican
running a deficit.
 
spike
 
 
 
 
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 23 18:37:00 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:37:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Quantum biology
Message-ID: <4BD1E8CC.7080600@satx.rr.com>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839811/

HFSP J. 2009 December; 3(6): 386?400.
Published online 2009 November 9. doi: 10.2976/1.3244985.
PMCID: PMC2839811

Quantum physics meets biology
Markus Arndt,^1 Thomas Juffmann,^1 and Vlatko Vedral^2, ^3
^1 Faculty of Physics, University of Vienna, Boltzmanngasse 5, 1090 
Vienna, Austria
^2 Atomic and Laser Physics, Clarendon Laboratory, University of Oxford, 
Parks Road, Oxford OX1 3PU, United Kingdom
^3 Department of Physics and Centre for Quantum Technologies, National 
University of Singapore, 2 Science Drive 3, Singapore 117543, Singapore
Markus Arndt: Email: markus.arndt at univie.ac.at 
<mailto:markus.arndt at univie.ac.at>
Received July 2, 2009; Accepted September 17, 2009.

Abstract
Quantum physics and biology have long been regarded as unrelated 
disciplines, describing nature at the inanimate microlevel on the one 
hand and living species on the other hand. Over the past decades the 
life sciences have succeeded in providing ever more and refined 
explanations of macroscopic phenomena that were based on an improved 
understanding of molecular structures and mechanisms. Simultaneously, 
quantum physics, originally rooted in a world-view of quantum 
coherences, entanglement, and other nonclassical effects, has been 
heading toward systems of increasing complexity. The present perspective 
article shall serve as a ?pedestrian guide? to the growing 
interconnections between the two fields. We recapitulate the generic and 
sometimes unintuitive characteristics of quantum physics and point to a 
number of applications in the life sciences. We discuss our criteria for 
a future ?quantum biology,? its current status, recent experimental 
progress, and also the restrictions that nature imposes on bold 
extrapolations of quantum theory to macroscopic phenomena.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 23 20:41:51 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:41:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] flagrant self-promo
Message-ID: <4BD2060F.6050304@satx.rr.com>

I see Wildside Press have my latest book up on their site:

<http://www.wildsidebooks.com/Climbing-Mount-Implausible-The-Evolution-of-a-Science-Fiction-Writer-by-Damien-Broderick-40trade-pb41_p_4004.html>

Description
Climbing Mount Implausible showcases a writer's growth though nearly 
fifty years of questing into the future. It includes his first published 
stories, plus detailed notes on his own evolution as a writer, his 
recent Philip K. Dick tribute, "Dead Air," and an outrageously funny 
collaboration with Paul Di Filippo, "Cockroach Love."

[The cover image was kindly made for the book by transhumanist artist 
Natasha Vita-More!]

Damien Broderick


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 22:26:08 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:26:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] flagrant self-promo
In-Reply-To: <4BD2060F.6050304@satx.rr.com>
References: <4BD2060F.6050304@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <y2x2d6187671004231526z1ad5fe97nd3638c96665c3e13@mail.gmail.com>

Damien,

Who is the *very young man* on the cover of the book?

John  ; )

On 4/23/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> I see Wildside Press have my latest book up on their site:
>
> <http://www.wildsidebooks.com/Climbing-Mount-Implausible-The-Evolution-of-a-Science-Fiction-Writer-by-Damien-Broderick-40trade-pb41_p_4004.html>
>
> Description
> Climbing Mount Implausible showcases a writer's growth though nearly
> fifty years of questing into the future. It includes his first published
> stories, plus detailed notes on his own evolution as a writer, his
> recent Philip K. Dick tribute, "Dead Air," and an outrageously funny
> collaboration with Paul Di Filippo, "Cockroach Love."
>
> [The cover image was kindly made for the book by transhumanist artist
> Natasha Vita-More!]
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 23 22:47:56 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:47:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] flagrant self-promo
In-Reply-To: <y2x2d6187671004231526z1ad5fe97nd3638c96665c3e13@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BD2060F.6050304@satx.rr.com>
	<y2x2d6187671004231526z1ad5fe97nd3638c96665c3e13@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD2239C.2070307@satx.rr.com>

On 4/23/2010 5:26 PM, John Grigg wrote:

> Who is the*very young man*  on the cover of the book?

Never met him myself.

Age: 23.

Damien Broderick



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 22:54:10 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:54:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] vatican to pay for stem cell research
In-Reply-To: <4C5579A56FA446FC8EB9E40538B989FC@spike>
References: <4C5579A56FA446FC8EB9E40538B989FC@spike>
Message-ID: <o2p2d6187671004231554p707f742av1b99f5367b2ad5b2@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/23/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> In all the debate of stem cell research we had here a few years ago, this is
> one we never thought of that I recall.  If we shift the focus away from
> embryonic stem cells to adult stem cell research, we get the vatican to pay
> for it:
>
> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_STEM_CELLS?SITE=1010WINS
> <http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_STEM_CELLS?SITE=1010WINS&
> SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT> &SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
>
> This is so cool on so many levels.  The most important of which of course is
> that I don't pay for it.  Another aspect is that it gives the vatican a
> chance to make atonement for all the child molestation over all those years.
> Another reason this is better than having governments pay is that the
> vatican has plenty of money, whereas governments everywhere are under
> crushing and ever increasing debt.  I have never heard of the vatican
> running a deficit.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 22:55:29 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:55:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] vatican to pay for stem cell research
In-Reply-To: <o2p2d6187671004231554p707f742av1b99f5367b2ad5b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C5579A56FA446FC8EB9E40538B989FC@spike>
	<o2p2d6187671004231554p707f742av1b99f5367b2ad5b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2i2d6187671004231555mae96cbaayc4dd4bb97875bbf6@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_STEM_CELLS?SITE=1010WINS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

This is so cool on so many levels.  The most important of which of
course is that I don't pay for it.  Another aspect is that it gives
the vatican a chance to make atonement for all the child molestation
over all those years.  Another reason this is better than having
governments pay is that the vatican has plenty of money, whereas
governments everywhere are under crushing and ever increasing debt.  I
have never heard of the vatican running a deficit.
>>>

Perhaps they can genetically engineer priests who don't want to molest kids.

John



On 4/23/10, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/23/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> In all the debate of stem cell research we had here a few years ago, this
>> is
>> one we never thought of that I recall.  If we shift the focus away from
>> embryonic stem cells to adult stem cell research, we get the vatican to
>> pay
>> for it:
>>
>> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_STEM_CELLS?SITE=1010WINS
>> <http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_STEM_CELLS?SITE=1010WINS&
>> SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT> &SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
>>
>> This is so cool on so many levels.  The most important of which of course
>> is
>> that I don't pay for it.  Another aspect is that it gives the vatican a
>> chance to make atonement for all the child molestation over all those
>> years.
>> Another reason this is better than having governments pay is that the
>> vatican has plenty of money, whereas governments everywhere are under
>> crushing and ever increasing debt.  I have never heard of the vatican
>> running a deficit.
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 23:00:43 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:00:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Comedy SNL skit: "Magical mysteries!"
Message-ID: <l2u2d6187671004231600p92c6c1e3q31e3a0bd18bb1d@mail.gmail.com>

An SNL skit that is playfully subversive in an "Idiocracy" sort of way...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xczrtu_saturday-night-live-outrageous-clow_fun#hp-v-v1?from=feedblitz_523284_3826410

John  ; )


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 23:29:47 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:29:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The next generation of military space weapons...
Message-ID: <y2w2d6187671004231629z114e88dbp961d81de8d991811@mail.gmail.com>

This new generation of autonomous and reusable military space vehicles
will give the United States the ability to strike with conventional
weapons at the same speed as the current arsenal of nuclear tipped
ICBM's.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/23/boeing-x-37b-autonomous-space-shuttle-launched-last-night-due-b/

John


From scerir at libero.it  Sat Apr 24 16:05:33 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:05:33 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] R:  Quantum biology
Message-ID: <13935905.2700161272125133400.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Damien:
>Quantum physics meets biology

More tales from the quantum frontier
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/17/2231022.aspx
Nothing special, just a simple review.




From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Apr 25 01:29:36 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:29:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <13935905.2700161272125133400.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <13935905.2700161272125133400.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <703922CC-EB35-453C-8B37-BD5DAEC8374D@mac.com>

Acknowledgments
 
I ended up only having a day to prepare this talk.  So of necessity I flipped between many sources on and offline to get information to compile.  I cribbed mercilessly.  I would like to flesh this
information out so any help from those of you more knowledgeable, especially you real rocket scientists and astrophysicists, would be much appreciated.   :)
 
Some sources I used:
 
Entering Space - Robert Zubrin
 
Mining the Sky - John S. Lewis
 
Wikipedia
 
NEAR-EARTH ASTEROID TRACKING   

Near Earth Objects

Near Earth Objects Map

Internet Encyclopedia of Science

and especially the wonderful site:

Permanent: Asteroid mining, space colonies, commercialization


- samantha (aka Serendipity)

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From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 24 02:49:41 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 19:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] a discrete topic; 14th amendment
Message-ID: <210118.81505.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>



?by George F. Will
A simple reform would drain some scalding steam from immigration arguments that may soon again be at a roiling boil. It would bring the interpretation of the 14th Amendment into conformity with what the authors of its text intended, and with common sense, thereby removing an incentive for illegal immigration. 

To end the practice of "birthright citizenship," all that is required is to correct the misinterpretation of that amendment's first sentence: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." From these words has flowed the practice of conferring citizenship on children born here to illegal immigrants. 
A parent from a poor country, writes professor Lino Graglia of the University of Texas law school, "can hardly do more for a child than make him or her an American citizen, entitled to all the advantages of the American welfare state." Therefore, "It is difficult to imagine a more irrational and self-defeating legal system than one which makes unauthorized entry into this country a criminal offense and simultaneously provides perhaps the greatest possible inducement to illegal entry." 
Writing in the Texas Review of Law and Politics, Graglia says this irrationality is rooted in a misunderstanding of the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." What was this intended or understood to mean by those who wrote it in 1866 and ratified it in 1868? The authors and ratifiers could not have intended birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants because in 1868 there were and never had been any illegal immigrants because no law ever had restricted immigration. 
If those who wrote and ratified the 14th Amendment had imagined laws restricting immigration -- and had anticipated huge waves of illegal immigration -- is it reasonable to presume they would have wanted to provide the reward of citizenship to the children of the violators of those laws? Surely not. 

The Civil Rights Act of 1866 begins with language from which the 14th Amendment's Citizenship Clause is derived: "All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States." (Emphasis added.) The explicit exclusion of Indians from birthright citizenship was not repeated in the 14th Amendment because it was considered unnecessary. Although Indians were at least partially subject to U.S. jurisdiction, they owed allegiance to their tribes, not the United States. This reasoning -- divided allegiance -- applies equally to exclude the children of resident aliens, legal as well as illegal, from birthright citizenship. Indeed, today's regulations issued by the departments of Homeland Security and Justice stipulate: 
"A person born in the United States to a foreign diplomatic officer accredited to the United States, as a matter of international law, is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. That person is not a United States citizen under the 14th Amendment." 
Sen. Lyman Trumbull of Illinois was, Graglia writes, one of two "principal authors of the citizenship clauses in 1866 act and the 14th Amendment." He said that "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" meant subject to its "complete" jurisdiction, meaning "not owing allegiance to anybody else." Hence children whose Indian parents had tribal allegiances were excluded from birthright citizenship. 
Appropriately, in 1884 the Supreme Court held that children born to Indian parents were not born "subject to" U.S. jurisdiction because, among other reasons, the person so born could not change his status by his "own will without the action or assent of the United States." And "no one can become a citizen of a nation without its consent." Graglia says this decision "seemed to establish" that U.S. citizenship is "a consensual relation, requiring the consent of the United States." So: "This would clearly settle the question of birthright citizenship for children of illegal aliens. There cannot be a more total or forceful denial of consent to a person's citizenship than to make the source of that person's presence in the nation illegal." 
Congress has heard testimony estimating that more than two-thirds of all births in Los Angeles public hospitals, and more than half of all births in that city, and nearly 10 percent of all births in the nation in recent years, have been to illegal immigrant mothers. Graglia seems to establish that there is no constitutional impediment to Congress ending the granting of birthright citizenship to persons whose presence here is "not only without the government's consent but in violation of its law."


      
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From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 24 02:54:26 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 19:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] How Big is the Ideal Government? was Re: 78 percent don't
	trust big government -- well, DUH!
Message-ID: <105353.88911.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>



"Please point me to the dictatorship that has proven itself more efficient over any reasonable length of time
>Samantha Atkins"
?
Relative to other European dicatorships?
?Franco's Spain perhaps?




      
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From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 24 03:02:24 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <l2t710b78fc1004212212xa732d4fdo581c4b5283c95243@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <613730.36660.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

"How many Apple ads did Newsweek carry in that issue?
>Emlyn"
?
But not on the front cover-- as the "iPAD will revolutionize"?blurb was. 
If everything was as revolutionary as?we've been told it is, we'd be living on Mars already.?

?
?
?
?
?

?


      
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 25 19:14:05 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:14:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <703922CC-EB35-453C-8B37-BD5DAEC8374D@mac.com>
References: <13935905.2700161272125133400.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<703922CC-EB35-453C-8B37-BD5DAEC8374D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <99F2D9BA59044CEE8A5CA7CCC387CBD0@spike>

Cool links, thanks!  From a first glance, the sources all look sound.  Bob
Zubrin is a completely reliable source.  I haven't found a single comment
from him that I would seriously dispute, and he has written a ton of stuff.

He has seriously disputed my comments however.  He and I have discussed my
notion of creating a Mars synchronous orbit mission with a single astronaut.
He insists that this notion is wrong, we need at least four.  The size of
the two missions (his notion vs mine) differ by more than an order of
magnitude.

spike



________________________________

	...On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins

	Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
	
	
	Acknowledgments
	 
	I ended up only having a day to prepare this talk.  So of necessity
I flipped between many sources on and offline to get information to compile.
I cribbed mercilessly...   :)
	 
	Some sources I used:
	 
	Entering Space
<http://www.amazon.com/Entering-Space-Creating-Spacefaring-Civilization/dp/1
585420360/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272155991&sr=8-1>  - Robert Zubrin
	 
...
	 
	...
	- samantha (aka Serendipity)





From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 20:19:28 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:19:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Posthuman Intelligence
Message-ID: <n2nee50357e1004251319z4e0510c7r4d45f519867a2ed6@mail.gmail.com>

I found some old temporary folders from years ago under the debris at
the bottom of my computer.  I often write responses to posts (just to
keep in practice) and never get round to
sending them. Some are over the daily posting limit, some are just
toooo annoying, some use terrible bad language, some are really
tedious and boring, etc....

This one still reads quite well and may be of interest.

The subject was individuality and how terrible the future Borg society
would be.
I wrote this to defend the much-maligned Borg.

-------------------------------

An M brain 'society' is not dystopian.  It is wonderful. No
loneliness, no poverty, no unmet needs.

It is the complete opposite of a dictatorship saying 'Ve haf ways to
make you happy!'.

People will choose to join in because remaining as we are now would be
terrible deprivation. Try to imagine being blind and deaf, in solitary
confinement, with no web access or  communication, multiplied a few
million times. That's what opting out would be like.

But humanity won't have to make that choice. It will be a lot of
little insignificant choices, a  gradual enhancement procedure.
Always-on communications, between people and the web, virtual
telepresence, brain enhancements, mood control, body enhancements,
computer info overlays on your eyeball, spending more and more time in
virtual reality worlds, etc. The machines will then merge into the
human body so that it will be unthinkable (if not impossible) to live
without them.

Uploading will be the final small step.
It really won't seem like a big deal by the time it becomes available.

Look at the young folk for the trends.
The Facebook class of phenomenon, blogs, emails, forums, chat rooms,
people walking around IM texting each other. chatting on their mobile,
sending photos to each other, swapping music, etc. In May 2006 the UK
sent a record 3.3 billion phone text messages.
The new generation *want* to be always in communication with their
friends. They cannot decide what they think about some new item until
they have discussed it with their friends.

There are a lot more details to be filled in and alternatives along
the route, but the overall direction is clear to me.


BillK


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Apr 25 21:45:17 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <703922CC-EB35-453C-8B37-BD5DAEC8374D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <623943.34565.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Mind if I forward this chat log + presentation to some friends?
You touched on a lot of the points I've been touching on when
I propose this idea.

One thing to consider: harvesting on-site is more efficient from
a mass budget point of view, but might not be more efficient
from an operational point of view.? Building and launching
refining equipment before you've confirmed that you have an
asteroid with good materials, and that you can safely return
the material to Earth (orbit or ground), might be more difficult
to finance than returning an asteroid to Earth orbit *and then*
taking care of getting equipment to process it.? (Also, if you're
eventually going to use most of the asteroid - say, a M-type
where the bulk of the iron is intended for eventual use as a
space habitat's shell - then you might as well capture it all in
the first place.)? Also, refining equipment in orbit can be
teleoperated from the ground more efficiently than the same
equipment a few light minutes away.

Also, you'll need a way to confirm the mineral content of an
asteroid you intend to mine, before you can drum up much
financing for an operation to mine it.? Identifying a M-type is
step one, but you'll need more precise data than that.

Are you planning to give this talk elsewhere?

--- On Sat, 4/24/10, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

From: Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com>
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 6:29 PM

Acknowledgments
?
I ended up only?having a day to prepare this talk.??So of necessity I flipped between many sources on and offline to get?information to compile.??I cribbed mercilessly.??I?would like to flesh this
information out so?any help from those of you more knowledgeable, especially you real rocket?scientists and?astrophysicists, would be much appreciated.?? :)
?
Some sources I?used:
?
Entering?Space?- Robert Zubrin
?
Mining?the Sky?- John S. Lewis
?
Wikipedia
?
NEAR-EARTH?ASTEROID TRACKING???

Near?Earth Objects

Near?Earth Objects Map

Internet Encyclopedia?of Science

and especially the wonderful site:

Permanent: Asteroid mining, space colonies,?commercialization

- samantha (aka Serendipity)

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 00:46:41 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:46:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] intellectual property again: hitler pissed because we can't
	make fun of hitler
Message-ID: <3D247FB2671E4FDC89CD7BBDCEAA2AE3@spike>

Hitler reacts to Hitler parodies being removed from YouTube.  Now THIS is
funny:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBO5dh9qrIQ
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBO5dh9qrIQ&feature=player_embedded>
&feature=player_embedded
 
spike
 
 
 
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Apr 26 01:50:37 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:50:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <623943.34565.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <623943.34565.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BD4F16D.8000901@mac.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:
> Mind if I forward this chat log + presentation to some friends?
> You touched on a lot of the points I've been touching on when
> I propose this idea.

Please, feel free.  The more these ideas circulate the better.

> 
> One thing to consider: harvesting on-site is more efficient from
> a mass budget point of view, but might not be more efficient
> from an operational point of view.  Building and launching
> refining equipment before you've confirmed that you have an
> asteroid with good materials, and that you can safely return
> the material to Earth (orbit or ground), might be more difficult
> to finance than returning an asteroid to Earth orbit *and then*
> taking care of getting equipment to process it.

Moving entire asteroids is a fair amount of delta V even with taking 
advantage of lunar gravity. And some interesting chondrites may be a bit 
hard to trim in flight to safely put them in an interesting orbit. 
Although I like this strategy for putting a lot of useful material at 
L5.  Of course unless you are on an iron asteroid or a few other rare 
types there should be enough volatiles in the rock to offset the cost of 
moving it but then you are partially processing it anyway.  And if you 
got it back to earth orbit and it was a dud then what then?  More delta 
V to dispose of it?

By scraping away at the asteroid or drilling into it I don't think it 
would take very long to estimate its value and what was worth keeping 
from processing it.   I does makes sense is to send a lot of cheap 
probes out to identify the most likely candidates and perhaps somehow 
radio tag them before putting up the heavy equipment.


   (Also, if you're
> eventually going to use most of the asteroid - say, a M-type
> where the bulk of the iron is intended for eventual use as a
> space habitat's shell - then you might as well capture it all in
> the first place.)

Perhaps for an M type. But they are relatively rare and than are many 
things very useful in the others as well.



   Also, refining equipment in orbit can be
> teleoperated from the ground more efficiently than the same
> equipment a few light minutes away.
> 

I have heard that tele-operators get a bit disoriented with more than 
few seconds of lag.

> Also, you'll need a way to confirm the mineral content of an
> asteroid you intend to mine, before you can drum up much
> financing for an operation to mine it.  Identifying a M-type is
> step one, but you'll need more precise data than that.
>

See above and the odds are pretty well known from meteorites and 
spectral analysis. Given the distribution of valuable materials common 
to various types I don't think failure to break even is that much of a 
worry IF a successful processing occurs of a sufficiently varied type. 
I would likely go first for C1, C2 chondrites for the variety of useful 
material present, especially volatiles to do more looking and stay 
longer in space.   Perhaps something that could be hollowed out as rad 
shield living space / headquarters would be an early target too.

I would worry more about the possibilites of various disastrous mishaps.


> Are you planning to give this talk elsewhere?

I don't have other targets for giving the talk at this time but I am 
open to suggestions.   In RW or VW or both.  Although my underlying 
relevant knowledge is embarrassingly thin in spots, I would be happy to 
present these ideas as best I can.

Thanks for your comments! Thanks to others for feedback as well.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Apr 26 04:51:41 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:51:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <623943.34565.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <623943.34565.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BD51BDD.2020505@mac.com>

BTW, this talk was done for a group called The Fulfillment that I 
started a while back in Second Life.  It is focused on what can be done 
in the near term to actualize a highly positive future taking humanity 
up to and through the technological singularity.  We meet in SL at 1100 
SLT (Pacific Time) every Saturday at 
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Transvision%20Nexus/40/86/41. 
Please drop by if you are in world.

Now that I have a bit more time, I am building a RW presence for the 
group.  We have a fairly new group page on Facebook, ning presence (not 
very fond of them so not much maintained) and I am working on a website. 
   It is likely that a meetup group (Bay Area) will follow soon.

- samantha


Adrian Tymes wrote:
> Mind if I forward this chat log + presentation to some friends?
> You touched on a lot of the points I've been touching on when
> I propose this idea.
> 
> One thing to consider: harvesting on-site is more efficient from
> a mass budget point of view, but might not be more efficient
> from an operational point of view.  Building and launching
> refining equipment before you've confirmed that you have an
> asteroid with good materials, and that you can safely return
> the material to Earth (orbit or ground), might be more difficult
> to finance than returning an asteroid to Earth orbit *and then*
> taking care of getting equipment to process it.  (Also, if you're
> eventually going to use most of the asteroid - say, a M-type
> where the bulk of the iron is intended for eventual use as a
> space habitat's shell - then you might as well capture it all in
> the first place.)  Also, refining equipment in orbit can be
> teleoperated from the ground more efficiently than the same
> equipment a few light minutes away.
> 
> Also, you'll need a way to confirm the mineral content of an
> asteroid you intend to mine, before you can drum up much
> financing for an operation to mine it.  Identifying a M-type is
> step one, but you'll need more precise data than that.
> 
> Are you planning to give this talk elsewhere?
> 
> --- On *Sat, 4/24/10, Samantha Atkins /<sjatkins at mac.com>/* wrote:
> 
> 
>     From: Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com>
>     Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
>     To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>     Date: Saturday, April 24, 2010, 6:29 PM
> 
>     *Acknowledgments*
>      
>     I ended up only having a day to prepare this talk.  So of necessity
>     I flipped between many sources on and offline to get information to
>     compile.  I cribbed mercilessly.  I would like to flesh this
>     information out so any help from those of you more knowledgeable,
>     especially you real rocket scientists and astrophysicists, would be
>     much appreciated.   :)
>      
>     Some sources I used:
>      
>     Entering Space
>     <http://www.amazon.com/Entering-Space-Creating-Spacefaring-Civilization/dp/1585420360/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272155991&sr=8-1> -
>     Robert Zubrin
>      
>     Mining the Sky
>     <http://www.amazon.com/Mining-Sky-Untold-Asteroids-Planets/dp/0201328194/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272156440&sr=8-1> -
>     John S. Lewis
>      
>     Wikipedia
>      
>     NEAR-EARTH ASTEROID TRACKING    <http://neat.jpl.nasa.gov/>
> 
>     Near Earth Objects <http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/>
> 
>     Near Earth Objects Map
>     <http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&ved=0CBsQFjAE&url=http://szyzyg.arm.ac.uk/%7Espm/neo_map.html&ei=yn_TS6WKEoeiswOTxLyNCg&usg=AFQjCNEnKvIkUtfZObEcSwnpXYb9-rdArQ&sig2=yCjmdBIY4a7uJJ8EkwK35g>
> 
>     Internet Encyclopedia of Science <http://daviddarling.info/>
> 
>     and especially the wonderful site:
> 
>     Permanent: Asteroid mining, space colonies, commercialization
>     <http://www.permanent.com/>
> 
> 
>     - samantha (aka Serendipity)
> 
>     <http://www.permanent.com/>
> 
>     -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     extropy-chat mailing list
>     extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>     </mc/compose?to=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>     http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 04:28:03 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:28:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD4F16D.8000901@mac.com>
Message-ID: <656542.51596.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 4/25/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Moving entire asteroids is a fair amount of delta V even
> with taking advantage of lunar gravity. And some interesting
> chondrites may be a bit hard to trim in flight to safely put
> them in an interesting orbit. Although I like this strategy
> for putting a lot of useful material at L5.

Exactly.  Even if you yourself can't use it all, you know the
rest will be useful without too much processing, with a mostly
iron asteroid.  That is not as true of the other types.

> Of course
> unless you are on an iron asteroid or a few other rare types
> there should be enough volatiles in the rock to offset the
> cost of moving it but then you are partially processing it
> anyway.

Yes, but that's gambling on the processing working in order
to get the desired amount and type of volatiles.

> And if you got it back to earth orbit and it
> was a dud then what then?? More delta V to dispose of
> it?

This is why surveys must be done ahead of time, or failing
that, on site.  But survey equipment is less massive than
processing equipment.

>?I does makes sense is to send a lot of
> cheap probes out to identify the most likely candidates and
> perhaps somehow radio tag them before putting up the heavy
> equipment.

Or, better yet, if you can somehow find a way to do it with
telescopes in Earth orbit, or even ground-based Earth
telescopes.  Such a survey is within the range of what one
of NASA's Centennial Challenges could support.  I've
suggested it to them, but I doubt the suggestion went far
beyond the automated inbox.

> Perhaps for an M type. But they are relatively rare and
> than are many things very useful in the others as well.

You have to start somewhere.  Any actual effort to do this
will, by necessity, start processing 1 asteroid before any
others.  (Survey of multiple asteroids may happen first,
but serious processing won't happen everywhere first.)

> See above and the odds are pretty well known from
> meteorites and spectral analysis.

I've been hunting for material on that - not just "this
albedo means this type of asteroid", but how specifically
one can tell what % of an asteroid is platinum (or at
least get a good estimate of the %), for example.  How
would one survey for a platinum-group-rich target?

>?Perhaps something that could be
> hollowed out as rad shield living space / headquarters would
> be an early target too.

That's another reason I suggest a M type: after the other
metals are taken out, melt down and spin up the iron to make
a startup space colony shell.

> I would worry more about the possibilites of various
> disastrous mishaps.

Of course.  Those would need to be listed out.  Perhaps the
next version of your talk can do so, and address them?

Among the ones I can see:

* Finding out that the target NEO is a dud (specifically,
  not compatible with the processing equipment you sent up)
  after you get there.  Solution: survey as best you can
  before you send anything to the NEO itself, and design
  the mission to require as little processing as possible
  before an extensive on-site survey (done while the NEO
  is en route to Earth) can be performed.

* Moving a NEO to Earth orbit messes up and you create an
  Earth impacter.  Solution: change the orbit slowly.
  Encourage third party observations to catch errors
  (you're moving an asteroid in open space; this is very
  hard to hide, especially if you're not trying to hide).
  Propulsion systems that are difficult to entirely break,
  such as solar sails, may be best.  Plot the orbit every
  day; if the margin of error becomes unacceptable, shift
  orbit to ditch the asteroid.

* Moving things from Earth orbit down to the ground
  messes up, as above.  Problem here is, you want Earth
  impacters - to recover platinum, et al, to sell on the
  open market to recover the investment.  (At least, that
  is the strategy I recommend for financing the first few
  asteroid captures, and thus starting up serious space
  industrialization.)  Keep the individual chunks small,
  and aim for open water (both to avoid damage, and to
  avoid national legal claims - you want to pick up the
  artificial meteor as "salvage", and have ships in
  position to do so - and keep others away long enough to
  do so - the moment it splashes down).

* Legal challenges, especially related to current
  international space treaties.  Again, make sure
  anything you bring down to Earth comes down in
  international waters, so no nation needs to make an
  opinion on whether the asteroid is owned in space;
  rather, chunks of it enter into ownership while in
  the Earth's atmosphere.  (Anyone contesting ownership
  because the object came from space, can be referred to
  legal precedent regarding ownership of meteorites.)
  Few enough players will be able to actually put
  anything into space that legal enforcement up there
  will hopefully be irrelevant for a while anyway, and
  if it really does become a concern, the processing
  equipment can likely be repurposed for self-defense -
  crude, but more than enough to handle unarmed
  interlopers.  (If they come back armed - you should
  be able to more than recover investment by then, and
  so have the resources to go claim another asteroid.)

* Protests from people convinced you're inevitably going
  to have one of the above catastrophes.  The real
  problem is, only a minority will actually have thought
  through and believe what they claim; most of them will
  be paid to protest, or roused by feel-good sound bites,
  and either way be made unassailable by logic and
  evidence.  (See many of the tactics employed in the
  recent health care debate for a prelude.)  I'm not sure
  what to do about this, aside from tapping into the
  wellspring of hope and developing an infrastructure
  that will let the average person eventually get into
  space - but since there are large sums of money in
  small numbers of hands involved (whoever runs this
  operation is likely to get rich), this may be difficult
  to do.

* Market collapse, after you sell several kilotons of
  platinum.  Solution: this will hopefully be much
  cheaper to do the second time.  Also, you can target a
  NEO with minerals which the first NEO did not collapse
  the market for.  (As you noted, there are many
  different types of rocks out there.)  Also, once the
  first rock starts making a place for people to go to
  in space, there may start to be a viable market for
  selling resources (especially volatiles) in space
  (which market does not exist today, no matter what
  many enthusiasts wish).  That said, even several
  kilotons of platinum might not collapse the market
  that much.

> I don't have other targets for giving the talk at this time
> but I am open to suggestions.???In RW or VW
> or both.? Although my underlying relevant knowledge is
> embarrassingly thin in spots, I would be happy to present
> these ideas as best I can.

Just a thought, and it might be a long shot to get in as a
speaker without serious professional credentials (then again,
they might not have any speakers on this topic with said
credentials, so you might have a chance):
http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=230&lumeetingid=2387



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 05:11:24 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:11:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD51BDD.2020505@mac.com>
References: <623943.34565.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BD51BDD.2020505@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2B897ADDA9D34089AADAFBB3C817E94F@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of samantha
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> ... We meet in SL at 1100 SLT 
> (Pacific Time) every Saturday at 
> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Transvision%20Nexus/40/86/41. 
> Please drop by if you are in world.
> 
> Now that I have a bit more time, I am building a RW presence 
> for the group.  We have a fairly new group page on Facebook, 
> ning presence (not very fond of them so not much maintained) 
> and I am working on a website. 
>    It is likely that a meetup group (Bay Area) will follow soon.
> 
> - samantha
> 
> 
> Adrian Tymes wrote:
> > Mind if I forward this chat log + presentation to some friends?...

This is cool!  I might try to make the scene if I can.  I am up to my
eyeballs in family responsibilities these days, but perhaps I can do it some
time.

I had a thought regarding mining of asteroids.  We have an example in the
world of archaeology, where some of the earliest sites to be discovered were
completely destroyed without yielding much information, because the early
scientists knew so much less.  Later, techniques were discovered which
allowed scientists to do more with less.

In a sorta analogous fashion, it is easy for me to imagine that the first
asteroids to be mined would be converted into stuff that is far less useful
than the later ones.  So it sets up a paradox a little like the
archoeologists live with every day.  So the race is on now to imagine good
ways to use the material in the first asteroids to be mined.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 05:17:24 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:17:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <656542.51596.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BD4F16D.8000901@mac.com>
	<656542.51596.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <091705BBAD9D4855A04A3B7E29CBA72F@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> ...
> 
> Just a thought, and it might be a long shot to get in as a 
> speaker without serious professional credentials (then again, 
> they might not have any speakers on this topic with said 
> credentials, so you might have a chance):
> http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=230&lumeetingid=2387

Ja.  I worked in the space biz for over two decades and in all that time
never met a single person who could legitimately claim expertise above a
dedicated amateur on the topic of asteroid  mining technology.  The
professional rocket scientist could have a lot of specifics on the orbit
mechanics and the propulsion tech, but this is stuff one needs to master
anyways in this game, and it isn't hard.

spike





From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 07:10:08 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 00:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <2B897ADDA9D34089AADAFBB3C817E94F@spike>
Message-ID: <568188.45208.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 4/25/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>?So the race is on
> now to imagine good
> ways to use the material in the first asteroids to be
> mined.

Bulk mining of platinum-group metals, to be shipped
down to Earth for resale on the commodity market.
Grossly inefficient compared to options that become
available once techniques are refined and there exists
a market for delivering stuff to orbit.  OTOH, can pay
for an asteroid mining operation (and then some) before
either of those two things happen, and lays the
groundwork for those two things to subsequently happen.



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Apr 26 07:52:10 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 00:52:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <091705BBAD9D4855A04A3B7E29CBA72F@spike>
References: <4BD4F16D.8000901@mac.com>
	<656542.51596.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<091705BBAD9D4855A04A3B7E29CBA72F@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD5462A.40408@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  
> 
>> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
>> ...
>>
>> Just a thought, and it might be a long shot to get in as a 
>> speaker without serious professional credentials (then again, 
>> they might not have any speakers on this topic with said 
>> credentials, so you might have a chance):
>> http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=230&lumeetingid=2387
> 
> Ja.  I worked in the space biz for over two decades and in all that time
> never met a single person who could legitimately claim expertise above a
> dedicated amateur on the topic of asteroid  mining technology.  The
> professional rocket scientist could have a lot of specifics on the orbit
> mechanics and the propulsion tech, but this is stuff one needs to master
> anyways in this game, and it isn't hard.
> 

Do you have some sources or sites you would recommend to sufficiently 
master what I would need of these things?  I would love to know enough 
to know roughly whether a particular mission was doable, what was 
involved and likely cost.  Not enough of course to be a pro or fool one 
  but enough to be able to do more than cheer and blow smoke.

Are there some nice online tools to play with?

- samantha



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 15:00:52 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:00:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <568188.45208.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2B897ADDA9D34089AADAFBB3C817E94F@spike>
	<568188.45208.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <86B710A35AA34DE1A5EB59F6F448735F@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> --- On Sun, 4/25/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >?So the race is on
> > now to imagine good
> > ways to use the material in the first asteroids to be  mined.
> 
> Bulk mining of platinum-group metals, to be shipped down to 
> Earth for resale on the commodity market...

I have heard that suggestion, but my intuition is that there all materials
on asteroids are more valuable in interplanetary space than they are on the
deck.  It isn't immediately obvious what stuff like gold and platinum could
be used for up there, but we really don't make good use of it here either.
In any case, I continue to think none of it would be worth the cost to
re-enter the atmosphere for the small amount any material is increased in
value here vs in space.

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 15:13:53 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:13:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD5462A.40408@mac.com>
References: <4BD4F16D.8000901@mac.com><656542.51596.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com><091705BBAD9D4855A04A3B7E29CBA72F@spike>
	<4BD5462A.40408@mac.com>
Message-ID: <16315B9D7D734AFB955B4A5729BC7B94@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of samantha
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> spike wrote:
> >  
> >...  
> > The professional rocket scientist could have a lot of 
> specifics on the 
> > orbit mechanics and the propulsion tech, but this is stuff 
> one needs 
> > to master anyways in this game, and it isn't hard.
> > 
> 
> Do you have some sources or sites you would recommend to 
> sufficiently master what I would need of these things?  I 
> would love to know enough to know roughly whether a 
> particular mission was doable, what was involved and likely 
> cost.  Not enough of course to be a pro or fool one
>   but enough to be able to do more than cheer and blow smoke.
> 
> Are there some nice online tools to play with?
> 
> - samantha

That PERMANENT site you gave has some excellent stuff on there.  It has been
several years since I went poking around on the web for this kinda stuff, so
my sources are out of date, but I will take it as an assignment to find and
update.  In the mean time, you need to understand the Hohmann Transfer.
Here's a good calculator if you already know the concepts:

http://www.vrzone.org/space/

Or if you want to back up and take a running start, check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohmann_transfer_orbit

and make sure you know the hell outta this critical concept.  We will be
using Hohmann transfer orbits for the foreseeable.  If you see a writer that
assumes some magic propulsion source that gets you there faster, you can
figure out how much extra propellant it would take, and how bad an idea it
is.  

You have heard since you were a kid how it takes 8 months to get to Mars,
with little regard to what tricky tech you have.  Hohmann explains why.  AC
Clarke chose to invent suspended animation to get his guys out to Jupiter
rather than piss off his loyal fans by suggesting a way around the Hohmann
transfer orbit.

Question Samantha, are you hot with spreadsheets?  Excel is our friend.

spike



 






From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 26 13:12:20 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:12:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] 5000 IU?
Message-ID: <343818.63280.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Vitamin D is available in 5000 IU does. 
Is that dosage safe, or will it turn you into a frog, or something?


      
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From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 26 13:52:07 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:52:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] How Big is the Ideal Government? (one last post)
Message-ID: <292410.66004.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

"Please point me to the dictatorship that has proven itself more efficient over any reasonable length of time 
>Samantha Atkins"
?
It depends on what the definition of efficient is: if the Third Reich had been allowed to do its thing, it?could have created?a most efficient Europe; no?people are?more efficient than the Germans. Naturally, it all depends on who defines 'efficient'. 
("What I say three times is true.") 
>From 1939 to 1975, Franco's Spain evolved from being no worse than most states in Europe to being as democratic as any state anywhere. So?to the extent that?Franco's dictatorship enabled post-'75 democracy in Spain, it was efficient. Economically?I don't know-- who does? 


      
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From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 26 13:54:14 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] intellectual property again: hitler pissed because we
	can't make fun of hitler
In-Reply-To: <3D247FB2671E4FDC89CD7BBDCEAA2AE3@spike>
Message-ID: <404856.32393.qm@web59910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Hitler's descendants ought to get a cut from the coming lawsuit.


      
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 15:36:24 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <86B710A35AA34DE1A5EB59F6F448735F@spike>
Message-ID: <225064.50524.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I have heard that suggestion, but my intuition is that
> there all materials
> on asteroids are more valuable in interplanetary space than
> they are on the
> deck.

In the long run, almost certainly.  Eventually there will be
a use for them up there.

For the first asteroid, or even the first few?  No.  There is
no immediate use for them up there, because there is nothing
and no one to make use of them up there.  The point is to set
up the conditions where such people and things will come to
be up there - but you still have to fund the mission before
that happens.  And before that happens, they're far more
valuable down here - again, for the first few.

> In any case, I continue to think none of it would be worth
> the cost to
> re-enter the atmosphere for the small amount any material
> is increased in
> value here vs in space.

Current spot price of platinum, USD per kg, for delivery to
points on Earth's surface: 56,200.

Current spot price of platinum, USD per kg, for delivery to
orbit: 0.

A thing is worth what someone will pay for it.  Also, you
can't get from X to Y by simply assuming you are already at
Y.


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 15:59:51 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:59:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] boobquake
Message-ID: <20D581ED6A83441B8D223AC9A2ACF6DF@spike>

Excellent weather for boobquake today.  Life is goooood.
 
My favorite quote from the article:
 
"Tens of earthquakes happen every day, so I'm not too worried," she tells
us. "But if we do [see a big one], we'll know women have magical powers,
which is kind of cool."

Hey I have known this for a long time.  Their magic sure works on me.
Science finally catches up with intuition.  {8-]
 
http://www.asylum.com/2010/04/23/jennifer-mccreight-boobquake-facebook-page-
revolts-against-iran-cleric-earthquake-claim/
 
spike
 
 
 
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 17:28:09 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:28:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <225064.50524.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <86B710A35AA34DE1A5EB59F6F448735F@spike>
	<225064.50524.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FF3A2726FD054213BEE15669B3CBEAE7@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> --- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > ...
> 
...
> > In any case, I continue to think none of it would be worth 
> the cost to 
> > re-enter the atmosphere for the small amount any material 
> is increased 
> > in value here vs in space.
> 
> Current spot price of platinum, USD per kg, for delivery to 
> points on Earth's surface: 56,200.
> 
> Current spot price of platinum, USD per kg, for delivery to
> orbit: 0.

Ja.  If platinum is still that cheap, I have a hard time imagining it could
be mined at an asteroid and re-entered for that price.  Without a space
shuttle or equivalent, we need to hoist a reentry vehicle to at least LEO at
$10k per kg, and it must be a fairly sophisticated re-entry body, steerable
and recoverable, ideally non-destructively landable.  With those
constraints, I have a hard time imagining a landing mass fraction higher
than about .2 to .25, which takes us already up to $40 to$50k per kg range,
before we take into account a lot of the risk factors and the delta V needed
to rendezvous with the reentry body in LEO.  

It wouldn't be an easy task from an engineering point of view, and durn near
impossible I would think, with payload values as low as $60k per kg.

We would need to do some concept level engineering and fire up some
spreadsheets.

spike


 



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 17:50:41 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:50:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <FF3A2726FD054213BEE15669B3CBEAE7@spike>
Message-ID: <704021.71501.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> If platinum is still that cheap, I have a hard
> time imagining it could
> be mined at an asteroid and re-entered for that
> price.? Without a space
> shuttle or equivalent, we need to hoist a reentry vehicle
> to at least LEO at
> $10k per kg, and it must be a fairly sophisticated re-entry
> body, steerable
> and recoverable, ideally non-destructively landable.

Ah, now here's another trick:

You're mining an asteroid of mostly iron anyway?  Build a
disposable re-entry shell, then nudge the shell into a
decaying, Earth-entry orbit.  Aim for a splash down - maybe
on the continental shelf near Florida or Alaska (far enough
to be well clear of land, near enough so the rock doesn't
sink too far; being in the US Exclusive Economic Zone may be
of use as well; Florida and Alaska have nice, fat shelves
nearby, in case you can't target that well, though you'll
want to narrow down the landing zone as much as possible
since you'll want ships temporarily securing that zone to
screen out claim jumpers and innocent bystanders).

Some of the iron will be burned away during re-entry, but
the point is the platinum.  While this does mean some
shaping equipment will have to be hefted, and some form of
propulsion (possibly volatiles, possibly solar sail) will be
needed, the former is desired to make stuff with the iron
afterward anyway, and the latter is a far smaller cost (if
it can not be obtained from the asteroid) than launching a
recovery vehicle.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 19:19:42 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 12:19:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <704021.71501.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <FF3A2726FD054213BEE15669B3CBEAE7@spike>
	<704021.71501.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> --- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > ...Without a 
> > space shuttle or equivalent, we need to hoist a reentry 
> vehicle to at 
> > least LEO at $10k per kg... spike
> 
> Ah, now here's another trick:
> 
> You're mining an asteroid of mostly iron anyway?  Build a 
> disposable re-entry shell, then nudge the shell into a 
> decaying, Earth-entry orbit...

Cool idea, especially if we can manage to do the re-entry without a control
system and without a thruster, which would be useless without a control
system.  Then the challenge becomes finding the thing.  Without a control
system, and assuming a re-entry body made entirely from on-orbit material
and assuming reentry by atmospheric decay of the orbit (no parachute or
thrusters available) the uncertainty in landing means it could land anywhere
on the globe.

>  Aim for a splash down - maybe 
> ...since you'll want ships temporarily securing that zone to 
> screen out claim jumpers and innocent bystanders)...

I need to think about this longer.

> Some of the iron will be burned away during re-entry, but the 
> point is the platinum...

Ja.  Landing that stuff seems hard enough to me that the iron in
interplanetary space is far better utilized in space structures than in
bringing home a bit of platinum.

Your original point was that none of this will happen unless we figure out a
way to pay for it, and the platinum does that.  You have found my
Hofstadterian paradox; the wily tortoise has once again destroyed the crab's
phonograph.  If humans work together and pay taxes to distill and use in
orbit the stuff that is already there, then the activity makes sense, sorta,
depending on how one looks at it.  On the other hand, an entrepreneur could
put up the money to recover material from where it is useful, to bring it
here, where it really isn't useful but has monetary value.

If the humans work together and pay taxes, they could produce something that
is wildly useful *to someone else* who didn't pay for it.  If the
entrepreneur is sufficiently competent, she could make the venture pay her
and her investers, but in the process would destroy most of the value of the
natural resource.  The paradox is that the precious material is either
destroyed or never used.  With current technology I see no other
alternatives besides those two.

spike

Perhaps we should cross post this discussion to PERMANENT?  Samantha, do
feel free to post my material.  Adrian would be cool with it too?





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Apr 26 21:07:57 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:07:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike>
References: <FF3A2726FD054213BEE15669B3CBEAE7@spike>	<704021.71501.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD600AD.7040307@satx.rr.com>

On 4/26/2010 2:19 PM, spike wrote:
>> >  You're mining an asteroid of mostly iron anyway?  Build a
>> >  disposable re-entry shell, then nudge the shell into a
>> >  decaying, Earth-entry orbit...
>
> Cool idea, especially if we can manage to do the re-entry without a control
> system and without a thruster, which would be useless without a control
> system.  Then the challenge becomes finding the thing.  Without a control
> system, and assuming a re-entry body made entirely from on-orbit material
> and assuming reentry by atmospheric decay of the orbit (no parachute or
> thrusters available) the uncertainty in landing means it could land anywhere
> on the globe.

Years ago people were talking about shaping asteroid ore into lifting 
bodies and firing them at Earth. No controls, as I recall. Given the 
computerized systems needed to get the orbiter down, I assume this is 
pretty far fetched (as Spike implies).

Damien Broderick



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 20:44:21 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:44:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike>
Message-ID: <140127.21773.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> > 
> > You're mining an asteroid of mostly iron anyway?? Build a 
> > disposable re-entry shell, then nudge the shell into a
> > decaying, Earth-entry orbit...
> 
> Cool idea, especially if we can manage to do the re-entry
> without a control
> system and without a thruster, which would be useless
> without a control
> system.? Then the challenge becomes finding the
> thing.? Without a control
> system, and assuming a re-entry body made entirely from
> on-orbit material
> and assuming reentry by atmospheric decay of the orbit (no
> parachute or
> thrusters available) the uncertainty in landing means it
> could land anywhere
> on the globe.

Ballistics.  The control system and thruster are with the
processing equipment, and return to it afterward.
Basically, just use the same tug that we used to capture
the asteroid in the first place, to give the small piece a
gentle push - precisely timed and angled so that we know
where and when it will come down.  The Apollo missions did
this without thruster or control system on the re-entry
vehicles (unless you count parachutes), and most of them
hit within 10 kilometers of where they were planned to.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splashdown_%28spacecraft_landing%29

The unmanned vehicles (a more direct analogue to this
plan) had a larger window - but most of them landed
within a radius of 100 kilometers of their planned
location.  There is easily this much open water over
coastal shelf to the west of Alaska (say, just north of
Saint Paul Island), among other sites.

> an entrepreneur could
> put up the money to recover material from where it is
> useful, to bring it
> here, where it really isn't useful but has monetary value.

Having monetary value gives it a use: to be sold.  More
importantly, that value isn't just because of the "ooh shiny
bauble" factor (though there is some of that), nor just
because it is rare (i.e., in short supply).  Platinum is an
industrially useful metal, especially in a range of
cleantech applications such as fuel cells and catalytic
converters (the things that make auto exhaust less
harmful), not to mention many uses in electronics.  It's
even one of the main subjects for the increasingly serious
research into cold fusion.  A fair case can be made that
merely crashing the platinum market - bringing platinum
prices down to 1/10th or less of today's - would fairly
directly cause greater adoption of environmentally
friendlier technologies, thus improving the environment.
(Remember, crashing that market is an inevitable side effect
of this plan, with effects toward that end likely visible
after harvesting just the first asteroid.)  In short,
platinum is very useful here on Earth, and the supplies
already on Earth are not enough.

Recognizing that, and letting go of the "IT MUST BE IN ORBIT
OR IT IS WORTHLESS" meme, is one of the toughest things for
enthusiasts to do when I have explained this idea.

> If the humans work together and pay taxes, they could
> produce something that
> is wildly useful *to someone else* who didn't pay for
> it.? If the
> entrepreneur is sufficiently competent, she could make the
> venture pay her
> and her investers, but in the process would destroy most of
> the value of the
> natural resource.? The paradox is that the precious
> material is either
> destroyed or never used.? With current technology I
> see no other
> alternatives besides those two.

I see no other alternatives either.  Moreover, the first
option appears to be practically impossible in this case.

You would need to first have a political entity willing
and able to embark on such a mission - and the only such
entities able to do so today, are quite unwilling.  In
theory, one could be convinced; in practice, the
difficulty of doing so, and the resources that would be
needed to give even a slight chance of actually doing
this, are - pardon the pun - astronomical, making this
option impossible in practice.

However, if and after the second option is done
correctly, the difficulty of doing the first may
decrease to the point where it becomes feasible.  It
may also open up other options.  (Indeed, opening them
up might best be an explicit secondary goal: not high
enough priority to interfere with paying off the
investors, so that it won't dissuade said investors
from making this possible in the first place, but
acknowledged so as to get good will from the public
and the space community, so as to reduce the number of
people trying to stop this effort because they see it
as a threat.)

In sum, though, this means the second option appears to
be the only way the first asteroid can be mined, and
there can't be a second or later until there's a first.

> Perhaps we should cross post this discussion to
> PERMANENT?? Samantha, do
> feel free to post my material.? Adrian would be cool
> with it too?

Sure.



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 21:18:41 2010
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:18:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Eco-terrorists' plot to blow up IBM nano-bio facility
	thwarted by routine traffic stop
Message-ID: <j2m29666bf31004261418y80d0b288i8171a6a370937747@mail.gmail.com>

On Brian Wang's blog:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/04/eco-terrorists-plot-to-blow-up-ibm.html

In Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1268968/Eco-terrorists-plot-blow-IBM-headquarters-thwarted-routine-traffic-stop.html

PJ
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 21:23:09 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:23:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike>
References: <FF3A2726FD054213BEE15669B3CBEAE7@spike><704021.71501.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike>
Message-ID: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>


> 
> > ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> > ...
> 
> >  Aim for a splash down - maybe...  Adrian
> 
> I need to think about this longer... spike 

OK, I thought about it longer.  Now I will now explain my thoughts in a
parable.  This one's free, you don't even need to call me Jesus.

A child sees a beautiful toy ship, in a bottle on the mantle.  Next to it is
a glass vase, which Grandfather said was hundreds of years old.  How did
that ship get inside the bottle?  Why does not the vase have flowers in it?
A vague intuition tells the child that further action is a Bad Idea, one
which will cause bitter regret, but pure logic prevails: the ship is no
value in there, for one cannot play with it, and surely the old vase must be
worn out by now.  The child takes the vase and smashes the bottle, breaking
the vase in the process.  It turns out to be not a particularly competent
bathtub toy, not even as good as the one she already has.

The platinum in orbit is the ship in the bottle.  The vase is the iron in
orbit.  My childish intuition tells me that retrieving platinum from
interplanetary space is a Bad Idea, one which will be bitterly regretted
henceforth forever.  The platinum is currently unused, perfectly wasted if
left where it is.  Leaving that stuff alone goes against my capitalist
nature, as there might be actual money to be made.  But my childish
intuition is nearly capable of overpowering pure logic, and that intuition
is telling me to leave it up there on the mantle, and go play elsewhere.  

Nanotech is coming, but a good way to get stuff out of this deep gravity
well is not.  It really isn't, there is no magic, no royal road outta here.
The iron used to retrieve the platinum may eventually be worth even more in
space than the platinum will ever be down here.  My advice for now: leave
everything already in orbit in orbit.

spike







From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 21:36:16 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:36:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] big dumb booster question
Message-ID: <u2pa6a17bd41004261436r95cfb393xf5ab864123b86991@mail.gmail.com>

>From my childhood enthusiasm for jet planes and space flight, a visual
memory remains vivid:  an
F-100 super sabre being "launched" from a stand using a JATO rocket.
Later I learned that the JATO used asphalt as fuel, tar basically.
Mixed with some oxidizer, of course.

Question: Would it be functionally possible to use asphalt as fuel in
a "big dumb booster", and if so, how would its use compare
ECONOMICALLY to more advanced fuels?

Or is this just a big dumb idea? ;-}

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                         Ray Charles


Setting aside the current political kerfluffle vis a vis Hugo Chavez,
I was wondering if the Orinoco tar sands and proximity to the equator
could turn Venezuela into a booster maker and launch-services
provider.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Apr 26 21:47:47 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:47:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] big dumb booster question
In-Reply-To: <u2pa6a17bd41004261436r95cfb393xf5ab864123b86991@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2pa6a17bd41004261436r95cfb393xf5ab864123b86991@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD60A03.1080609@satx.rr.com>

On 4/26/2010 4:36 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:

> Question: Would it be functionally possible to use asphalt as fuel

The "road to space", eh? (the path? the roof of the world? and so on...)

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 22:08:56 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:08:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] big dumb booster question
In-Reply-To: <u2pa6a17bd41004261436r95cfb393xf5ab864123b86991@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2pa6a17bd41004261436r95cfb393xf5ab864123b86991@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g2iee50357e1004261508q45019888i92c8a1090842e878@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Jeff Davis  wrote:
> From my childhood enthusiasm for jet planes and space flight, a visual
> memory remains vivid: ?an
> F-100 super sabre being "launched" from a stand using a JATO rocket.
> Later I learned that the JATO used asphalt as fuel, tar basically.
> Mixed with some oxidizer, of course.
>
> Question: Would it be functionally possible to use asphalt as fuel in
> a "big dumb booster", and if so, how would its use compare
> ECONOMICALLY to more advanced fuels?
>
> Or is this just a big dumb idea? ;-}
>
>


Well, not really a dumb idea, but.....

See this history of JATO rocket development:
<http://www.astronautix.com/articles/comlants.htm>

Asphalt was only used as a binder for about three years, 1942 to 1945.
Quote:
In 1944, Charles Bartley joined Mills' group, and in 1945 introduced
as a replacement for asphalt a castable elastomeric material,
polysulfide rubber, produced by Thiokol Chemical Corporation.
-------------

On the other hand, another quote says:
The debate on the superiority of solid vs. liquid propellant rocket
engines for boosters of space vehicles still rages today (but
environmental considerations now favour liquid propellants).
--------------------------


BillK



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Apr 26 22:37:27 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:37:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD600AD.7040307@satx.rr.com>
References: <FF3A2726FD054213BEE15669B3CBEAE7@spike>
	<704021.71501.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike>
	<4BD600AD.7040307@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4BD615A7.10403@mac.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 2:19 PM, spike wrote:
>>> >  You're mining an asteroid of mostly iron anyway?  Build a
>>> >  disposable re-entry shell, then nudge the shell into a
>>> >  decaying, Earth-entry orbit...
>>
>> Cool idea, especially if we can manage to do the re-entry without a 
>> control
>> system and without a thruster, which would be useless without a control
>> system.  Then the challenge becomes finding the thing.  Without a control
>> system, and assuming a re-entry body made entirely from on-orbit material
>> and assuming reentry by atmospheric decay of the orbit (no parachute or
>> thrusters available) the uncertainty in landing means it could land 
>> anywhere
>> on the globe.
> 
> Years ago people were talking about shaping asteroid ore into lifting 
> bodies and firing them at Earth. No controls, as I recall. Given the 
> computerized systems needed to get the orbiter down, I assume this is 
> pretty far fetched (as Spike implies).

So it is not possible to de-orbit an object like an asteroid in such a 
way as to ensure that it lands in some fixed size deserted area?   I 
don't see why this would be so.


- samantha


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 22:46:00 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:46:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] How Big is the Ideal Government? was Re: 78 percent don't
	trust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <105353.88911.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <105353.88911.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m2ua6a17bd41004261546gde960964q627665b9e90d4ba8@mail.gmail.com>

The term "dictatorship" is inherently negative, and therein
prejudicial.  One man's dictator is another's "dear leader" or
"benevolent monarch".  Equally biased is the culturally iconic term
"democracy".  Best thing since sliced bread, right?  Only if you're
inculcated with that value.  All the democracies I've seen appear in
reality to be oligarcic dictatorships -- the moneyed classes own the
government through control of campaign financing.  Further, speaking
of the US, it appears we have two cultures virtually at war with one
another, a polarity enhanced and exploited by the "elites" to
manipulate the non-oligarcic masses and help to nullify and prevent
any genuine manifestation of democracy.

"Democracy" is a sham and a scam and as vicious and destructive as any
dictatorship.   It is the wealth of democracies not their "freedoms"
which attract people.  People want to be rich, and have the safety
that wealth provides.  It's the gold that makes america the golden
city on the hill.  Everyone wants to be a millionaire, and virtually
nobody really cares -- no matter what they say -- about how they get
to be rich.  Having a clean conscience is all well and good, but being
rich is what really matters.

My point is, go right ahead and try to figure out how to structure
"good" or "rational" government, but please step back from the current
default notion (among westerners) that democracy is that system.  Our
current "democracies" are nothing but crap.  The people have no real
say.

Best, Jeff Davis

"For centuries our race has built on false assumptions.
    If you build a fantasy based on false assumptions and
       continue to build on such a fantasy, your whole existence
          becomes a lie which you implant in others who are too
                       lazy or too busy to question it's truth." -
                                                     Michael Moorcock


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 22:50:53 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:50:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] big dumb booster question
In-Reply-To: <u2pa6a17bd41004261436r95cfb393xf5ab864123b86991@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2pa6a17bd41004261436r95cfb393xf5ab864123b86991@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3744E90069B14D0DBDAFCC862F141B5C@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
> ...
> Later I learned that the JATO used asphalt as fuel, tar basically.
> Mixed with some oxidizer, of course.
> 
> Question: Would it be functionally possible to use asphalt as 
> fuel in a "big dumb booster", and if so, how would its use 
> compare ECONOMICALLY to more advanced fuels?
> 
> Or is this just a big dumb idea? ;-}
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis

Jeff, good to see you back again.

They are doing this already.  The JATO rocket you described doesn't oxidize
the tar directly, but rather uses the tar to hold both the fuel and oxidizer
in a solid matrix.  When they combine, the solid matrix is melted and
vaporized, and out the nozzle it goes.  There is nothing magic about tar;
all it does is hold everything in place.  From a chemical reaction point of
view, we could use asphalt (long hydrocarbon chains) or parafin (long
hydrocarbon chains) or anything that is pretty much chemically equivalent,
which will all end up as CO2 and H20 coming out the tail end irregardful.

The solid rocket boosters on the shuttle and military rockets use a rubbery
compound to hold the fuel and oxidizer.  The material is chemically close to
asphalt, which isn't all that different from heavy weight motor oil, only
still longer carbon chains, more cross-linked by sulfur.

Big dumb booster is an idea which has been studied all to hell and gone.  A
good example was the Lockheed Launch Vehicle, which succeeded on its second
flight but was an economic failure.  It used four solid stages to orbit, the
stages being excessed military hardware bought cheap.

Interesting aside: in 1992, George HW Bush made a deal which freed up a lot
of military solid rocket boosters (formerly used for Trident
submarine-launched nukes) and some re-entry bodies.  Lockheed Launch Vehicle
used those boosters to get a small payload to orbit.  Recently this latest
guy, after W, can't think of his name, made a deal that again frees up a
bunch of military hardware, which is now available to rocket scientists to
think of other uses.  I understand there are a bunch of re-entry bodies
formerly being used to carry nukes, which are now coming available.  Back in
1994, I worked in a group that was doing exactly that: trying to find uses
for retired military re-entry bodies.  Now it is back to the future.  They
are using them as kinetic energy weapons, which is the only feasible use we
could find for them 16 yrs ago.

Have you any ideas?  Present them to DARPA forthwith, me lad!

spike


  



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 22:36:58 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
Message-ID: <1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> OK, I thought about it longer.? Now I will now explain
> my thoughts in a
> parable.? This one's free, you don't even need to call
> me Jesus.

It is also flawed.  I have already explained most of the
errors (like your assumption that platinum has no
non-financial value on the ground, or even that the
value in orbit necessarily dwarfs the value on the
ground*).  Here you also imply that there is only one
asteroid.  There are hundreds of thousands of "minor
planets", not counting the Oort Cloud, Kuiper Belt,
stuff too small to be registered, and as-yet-undetected
rocks.

If you mean, grabbing an asteroid is so hideously
expensive that we should plan on only ever doing it
once - nope.  Once you have launched an asteroid tug,
you do not need to launch it again to capture the
second asteroid, and that is a major part of the cost
of capturing the first asteroid.

* Another way to think of it: even if the eventual
value in orbit is extreme, that's still eventual.
We can "borrow" the platinum down to Earth in the
mean time, earning interest.  Once we become able to
use the platinum in orbit, we can pay the launch
costs out of that interest, which also covers the
cost of the iron used up in the process.  (When the
price per ton of the raw material exceeds the price
per ton of launching stuff into orbit, the interest
payments really can get that high.  Also, by the
time platinum is useful in space, launch costs may
have come down a lot - say, if there's a working
space elevator by then - so there wouldn't be that
much to pay back.)

> My childish intuition tells me that retrieving
> platinum from
> interplanetary space is a Bad Idea, one which will be
> bitterly regretted
> henceforth forever.

If one's intuition flies in the face of the facts, then
one's intuition is wrong.

Also: why will anyone care that much?  The Exxon Valdez
spill wasted a lot of oil; do most people - even most
people who were involved - bitterly regret it forever?
Clearly not: most people barely remember it, if they
even heard about it, and all those who were involved
have moved on to other things.  Same here: even if it
is a mistake, the magnitude is far smaller than you are
claiming (since, again, there are many other asteroids
around).

> Nanotech is coming, but a good way to get stuff out of this
> deep gravity
> well is not.

Space elevators, laser launch, fusion rockets...and those
are just off the top of my head.

You appear to be in the grip of a meme that declares that
anything in orbit is inherently infinitely more valuable than
anything on the ground, whether or not that can be proven
today.  This meme is persistent because it gives an immediate
way to defy evidence: it posits that future conditions will
change to justify it, regardless of any and all facts that
can be observed and measured at the present time.  In this,
it is similar to belief in the Second Coming (and dissimilar
to the simplest beliefs in the Singularity, which are simply
observations on what happens if current observed trends
continue).  Please do try to free yourself from such memes.

If, for instance, there is such an overwhelming future
value for iron in space, then why is there a complete lack
of speculators in that market today?  The concept is not
beyond what Big Money is capable of wrapping its mind
around.  In these times, if that valuation really is so
guaranteed, the risk/reward ratio would surely cause some of
today's paniced investors (who, not that long ago, were
willing to buy treasury notes with negative interest rates)
to shelter their money in buying up scrap iron in space.
Buying the salvage rights to junked satellites, if nothing
else: that iron's already been delivered.  And yet, despite
the existence of such scrap iron, no one is buying.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 23:10:14 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:10:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Big is the Ideal Government? was Re: 78 percent
	don'ttrust big government -- well, DUH!
In-Reply-To: <m2ua6a17bd41004261546gde960964q627665b9e90d4ba8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <105353.88911.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<m2ua6a17bd41004261546gde960964q627665b9e90d4ba8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9B0D2E5A4149403CAA8A685C975E203F@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...
>... It's the gold that makes america the golden city on the hill...

Hey cool, I like that Jeff.  May I quote you?

>  Everyone wants to be a millionaire...

Millionaire?  We want to be billionaires sir.

> and virtually nobody really cares -- no matter 
> what they say -- about how they get to be rich...

I do.  I want to be comfortable while I get rich.

> Having a clean conscience is all well and good, but being rich is what 
> really matters...

Given sufficient sums of money, one can buy a clean conscience.  Bill Gates
is doing exactly that right now.
 
> ...Our current "democracies" are nothing but crap...

Ja, the second worst system in the world.

>  The people have no real say... Best, Jeff Davis

The really rich people have real say.  Now more than ever.

spike






From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 23:21:16 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:21:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk
Message-ID: <j2gd1988d2d1004261621hbacc1947t7883854488dc216e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 8:53 AM,  samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

snip

> ?Although my underlying
> relevant knowledge is embarrassingly thin in spots, I would be happy to
> present these ideas as best I can.

There is considerable literature on this business.  One place to start is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._Lewis

Eric Drexler and I did some work on this topic back in the 70s.

The Mond process is useful in sorting out metals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process

Keith



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 26 23:03:57 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:03:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD615A7.10403@mac.com>
References: <FF3A2726FD054213BEE15669B3CBEAE7@spike><704021.71501.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com><CABEA18805794D9792C291F86EF6B293@spike><4BD600AD.7040307@satx.rr.com>
	<4BD615A7.10403@mac.com>
Message-ID: <ADB98B659199463FA96B900B9293C5E1@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of samantha
> ...
> >>
> >> Cool idea, especially if we can manage to do the re-entry 
> without a 
> >> control system and without a thruster...
> 
> So it is not possible to de-orbit an object like an asteroid 
> in such a 
> way as to ensure that it lands in some fixed size deserted area?   I 
> don't see why this would be so... - samantha

It isn't impossible, just very difficult.  It's one of those chaos things: a
very tiny uncartainty in the input makes an enormous uncertainty in the
output.  In the case of an asteroid, the unknowns in the aerodynamics makes
it durn near impossible to guess where it would land.  

Recall that a typical reentry event would have the asteroid tearing thru the
upper atmosphere at a very high velocity on the first pass, scrubbing just
enough velocity to send it into a highly eliptical orbit.  The next pass
scrubs off more velocity, and so on possibly several times, until the
re-entry event.  Without a lot of knowledge of the aerodynamics and mass
properties of the asteroid, we have no good way to even know how many times
it would orbit the earth before re-entry.  There are also uncertainties in
the density of the upper atmosphere.  If it doesn't catch enough air, it
might go into a hyperbolic orbit, never to return, or if so, it could be
centuries from now.

spike







From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 23:41:31 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:41:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] big dumb booster question
In-Reply-To: <3744E90069B14D0DBDAFCC862F141B5C@spike>
Message-ID: <514467.49249.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Back in
> 1994, I worked in a group that was doing exactly that:
> trying to find uses
> for retired military re-entry bodies.? Now it is back
> to the future.? They
> are using them as kinetic energy weapons, which is the only
> feasible use we
> could find for them 16 yrs ago.
> 
> Have you any ideas?? Present them to DARPA forthwith,
> me lad!

How well, and how long, would they last on Venus?

What about sundiving - let a probe send back telemetry as
long as possible?

Do they stand up to volcanoes well?



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Apr 26 23:44:55 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:44:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <ADB98B659199463FA96B900B9293C5E1@spike>
Message-ID: <885368.29239.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Recall that a typical reentry event would have the asteroid
> tearing thru the
> upper atmosphere at a very high velocity on the first pass,
> scrubbing just
> enough velocity to send it into a highly eliptical
> orbit.

What if you have an asteroid starting from L5, and moving at
a slow velocity down to Earth?  That's not a terribly high
velocity, and would not require multiple passes.

This is part of the reason why I wanted to first move the
asteroid to L5, or lunar orbit, or similar before trying
to get pieces of it back to Earth.


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 01:08:35 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:38:35 +0930
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <613730.36660.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <l2t710b78fc1004212212xa732d4fdo581c4b5283c95243@mail.gmail.com>
	<613730.36660.qm@web59916.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g2i710b78fc1004261808g5bb0fadch219abeebc47825a4@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/24 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>
>
> "How many Apple ads did Newsweek carry in that issue?
> >Emlyn"
>
> But not on the front cover-- as the "iPAD will revolutionize"?blurb was.
> If everything was as revolutionary as?we've been told it is, we'd be living on Mars already.
>

You buy editorial (and even front page I bet) with advertising.

--
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 03:12:32 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:12:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] big dumb booster question
In-Reply-To: <514467.49249.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <3744E90069B14D0DBDAFCC862F141B5C@spike>
	<514467.49249.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <087A9A01036B410981F71F833AD091B1@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> ...
> > 
> > Have you any ideas?? Present them to DARPA forthwith, me lad!
> 
> How well, and how long, would they last on Venus?

Hmmm, don't know about that.

> What about sundiving - let a probe send back telemetry as 
> long as possible?...

That is a good possibility.  The outer layer chars to pretty much pure
carbon, which is really good for high temperatures.
 
> Do they stand up to volcanoes well?

Drop it in thru the ash?  Of course it wouldn't survive any impact, but I
think you had in mind having it send chemical composition and temperature
data before impact?  That's an idea.

What we finally proposed is a re-entry body designed specifically to take
out electric power line towers.  It has no actual explosives aboard, but
they use the accuracy infrastructure already in place with the Trident
missile, then uses enhancements and GPS to guide it to still greater
accuracy.  Then it whacks the tower without causing collateral damage.

The problem we never could solve is that it would look to the commies like a
nuclear attack.  So we put in the Disadvantage column "might trigger
unlimited nuclear war" with the parenthetical comment: (bad).  We had all
seen Ghost Busters.  So it was tested but never put into production.

I saw an article recently in which another design team had come up with
pretty much the same idea, and had come up against the same problem.

spike






From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 10:35:30 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:35:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How the Free Market system works
Message-ID: <t2jee50357e1004270335jcd65c9dq64fdce7e3534bac8@mail.gmail.com>

Cookie Diet

<http://adamthinks.com/cookie-diet/>

<snip>
Siegal: We?ll call it Cookie Diet.  It?ll just be a box of cookies,
but on the front we?ll put a picture of my uncle in a white coat to
imply that it?s medically proven to make you lose weight.

Johnson: I love it.  But what happens when people realize the cookies
don?t work?

Siegal: That?s easy,  we just charge an outrageous amount of money,
that way we only need to sell one box per person.
--------


BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 13:39:43 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:39:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wesley Du Charme, 71, psychologist,
	author of "Becoming Immortal: 	Nanotechnology,
	You and the Demise of Death."
Message-ID: <g2jffd22f9d1004270639w71d50d48t7fe22bf6247e7982@mail.gmail.com>

>From alt.obituaries.

-Dave

----
Message-ID: <4BD6DD56.7030205 at spamcop.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:49:26 -0500
From: Hoodoo <hoodoo at spamcop.net>

Psychologist believed the future can still be his after death

By Virginia Culver
The Denver Post
04/25/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT
http://www.denverpost.com/obituaries/ci_14953839

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2010/0424/20100424__20100425_A07_CD25OBITDUCHARME~p1.JPG
Wesley Du Charme wrote a book on the possible use of nanotechnology to
extend human life.


Wesley Du Charme died April 15, but he said he'd be back.

Du Charme, 71, a psychologist, asked to have his head cryogenically
preserved until scientists find a cure "for whatever damn thing killed
me," he told family members.

His family agreed, said his daughter Nicole Frens of Missoula, Mont.
His head is being kept in a metal box at Alcor Life Extension
Foundation in Scottsdale, Ariz., an organization that believes bodies
can be reanimated when nanotechnology has progressed enough to
reconstruct a body. The head will be preserved in liquid nitrogen at
minus 200 degrees. Freezing with water destroys cells, said Mike Noel,
a friend of Du Charme's.

Du Charme once said that "not only is 'old' a state of mind, so is 'dead.' "

His beliefs are chronicled in his book: "Becoming Immortal:
Nanotechnology, You and the Demise of Death."

After he was interviewed about the book on a radio station, a caller
said he was "stepping in" where humans ought not to. But Nicole Frens
said, "We're always stepping in ? saving peoples' lives with
medicine."

Wesley Du Charme believed he would be reanimated "maybe between 20 and
100 years from now," Frens said.

While not a believer in reanimation, Noel praised Du Charme as being
"thoughtful and intelligent, with a great sense of humor."

People choose life-extension for various reasons, said D'bora Tarrant,
an official with Alcor. Some want to live forever, or they're curious
about the future or they don't believe this life is all there is, she
said.

Du Charme handed over his $50,000 life insurance policy to Alcor and
paid $598 a year in dues while he was living.

Du Charme loved to sing in a barbershop quartet, played tennis and was
interested in almost everything, said Noel, who lives in Tumtum, Wash.

Du Charme owned Decision Time Tools, a website for retired people
looking for leisure-time activities.

He survived kidney cancer 25 years ago, but the cancer returned two years ago.

He taught psychology at Rice University in Houston and later worked
for corporations as an industrial psychologist, "helping them make the
workplace better," Frens said.

He became interested in nanotechnology and cryonics 20 years ago, his
daughter said.

Wesley Du Charme was born in Minneapolis on April 3, 1939, and
graduated from St. Francis de Sales High School in Denver. He earned a
psychology degree at the University of Colorado and an experimental
psychology degree at the University of Michigan.

He married Skippy Clark in May 1961. They lived in Evergreen for many
years before moving to Rathdrum, Idaho.

His family took him to Scottsdale in the last few days of his life so
he would be close to Alcor.

In addition to his wife and daughter, he is survived by two other
daughters, Gail Wyroski of Peyton and Suzy Du Charme of Coeur d'Alene,
Idaho; six grandchildren; one great-grandchild; and his mother,
Florence Scriven of Fort Lupton.



-- 
Trout Mask Replica

WFMU.org or WMSE.org; because music channels on
Sirius Satellite, and its internet radio player, suck
----



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 14:10:34 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:10:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The worms that point the way to understanding tissue
	regeneration
In-Reply-To: <r2vee50357e1004270705h414a2366qd24e70fb83c49420@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2vee50357e1004270705h414a2366qd24e70fb83c49420@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <w2pee50357e1004270710p19b74286z7031fb02d0f4b416@mail.gmail.com>

April 23, 2010
(PhysOrg.com) -- Scientists at The University of Nottingham have
discovered the gene that enables an extraordinary worm to regenerate
its own body parts after amputation -- including a whole head and
brain.

<http://www.physorg.com/news191225651.html>

The research led by Dr Aziz Aboobaker, a Research Councils UK Fellow
in the School of Biology shows for the first time that a gene called
'Smed-prep' is essential for correctly regenerating a head and brain
in planarian worms. The study is published on April 22 2010 in the
open access journal PLoS Genetics.

Smed-prep is necessary for the correct differentiation and location of
the cells that make up a planarian worm?s head. It is also sufficient
for defining where the head should be located on the worm. The team
have found that although the presence of Smed-prep is vital so that
the head and brain are in the right place, the worm stem cells can
still be persuaded to form brain cells as a result of the action of
other unrelated genes. But even so, without Smed-prep these cells do
not organise themselves to form a normal brain.
------------------------


This could be useful for the Monty Python Black Knight.

But if we regrow another head after accidentally mislaying our present
one, surely we cannot regrow memories as well? ?Hard to tell with a
worm, of course. ?But it could be a tricky situation for humans.


BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 15:22:34 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:22:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How the Free Market system works to educate people
In-Reply-To: <t2jee50357e1004270335jcd65c9dq64fdce7e3534bac8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2jee50357e1004270335jcd65c9dq64fdce7e3534bac8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70E75FEF2EC94A46B47603F6FDC0D447@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: [ExI] How the Free Market system works
> 
> Cookie Diet
> 
> <http://adamthinks.com/cookie-diet/> 
...
> Siegal: We'll call it Cookie Diet...we just charge an outrageous amount of

> money, that way we only need to sell one box per person.
> -------- BillK


Excellent!  Billk, this explains why people who live in free market systems
know to not buy expensive cookies from guys in white coats.

spike








From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 15:33:23 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:33:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How the Free Market system works to educate people
In-Reply-To: <70E75FEF2EC94A46B47603F6FDC0D447@spike>
References: <t2jee50357e1004270335jcd65c9dq64fdce7e3534bac8@mail.gmail.com>
	<70E75FEF2EC94A46B47603F6FDC0D447@spike>
Message-ID: <s2yee50357e1004270833rb8555e2v39bc1f56fdd8fa83@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/27/10, spike wrote:
>  Excellent!  Billk, this explains why people who live in free market systems
>  know to not buy expensive cookies from guys in white coats.
>
>


I knew education was expensive in the US, but not *that* expensive.

First the cookie diet, then the pet rocks craze, then the gadgets to
run your car on water....   Next thing you know you're buying CDOs
from Goldman Sachs and wondering where all your money went.

Now I realize.  It all went on education.  :)


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 16:16:46 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:16:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>

... 
> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> --- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > OK, I thought about it longer.? Now I will now explain my 
> thoughts in a parable...Jesus.
> 
> It is also flawed.  I have already explained most of the 
> errors (like your assumption that platinum has no 
> non-financial value on the ground, or even that the value in 
> orbit necessarily dwarfs the value on the ground*)...
> 
> * Another way to think of it: even if the eventual value in 
> orbit is extreme, that's still eventual.Arian

Ja, my notion is that platinum creates its own value in orbit as soon as we
figure out how to use it to make reflective surfaces.  In the asteroid belt,
we have plenty of iron, plenty of silicon.  These are good structural metals
but neither of these are particularly good reflectors in the sunlight
spectrum.  We use the platinum, chromium and silver as reflective layers
over the iron and silicon.

We already have this technology.  Imagine a very thin mylar balloon, 100
meter radius, launched gently from an asteroid, in interstellar space far
from the nearest gravitational influence, inflated to about 10
nano-atmospheres, with a free-floating ion-deposition gun inside the
balloon, vaporizing a ten kilogram hunk of chromium or platinum.  The
balloon is set to rotation about the X axis, the ion gun rotates about the Y
axis, while spraying a tenuous mist of vaporized metal at a rate of about a
milligram per second.  The inside of the balloon is eventually coated with a
reflective surface.  Cut circular pieces out of the balloon, reshape
slightly and you have an enormous solar concentrator.

The free floating ion deposition device need not be connected in any way to
the balloon, for as the ion gun drifted toward the wall of the balloon, the
force of the ions hitting the nearer surface would gently nudge the balloon
away, keeping the ion gun roughly near the center of the balloon.  

With the numbers I arbitrarily called out, the average thickness of the
coating would be about 4 nanometers, or close enough to 30 atomic radii for
platinum.  The ion gun I specified could work on solar power alone at that
flux level and would accomplish the complete ionization of the 10 kg mass in
about four months.  A 15 atom thick average coating of chromium on mylar
would reflect about 20 percent-ish of the sunlight that hits it (if I recall
correctly.)  

What could we do with that?

We have all the technology needed to do this today, with the possible
exception of the device needed to cut circular pieces of the balloon and set
them to gently rotating.  But that doesn't sound too hard to me.  The
platinum would make great solar concentrators and solar sails.  I see little
justification for dropping down into the gravity well to collect interest on
it, instead of going straight to the solar sails now.

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 16:37:09 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:37:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The worms that point the way to understanding
	tissueregeneration
In-Reply-To: <w2pee50357e1004270710p19b74286z7031fb02d0f4b416@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2vee50357e1004270705h414a2366qd24e70fb83c49420@mail.gmail.com>
	<w2pee50357e1004270710p19b74286z7031fb02d0f4b416@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <162E352ABAE041A692DE5DA5EA7003E6@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of BillK
...
> (PhysOrg.com) -- Scientists at The University of Nottingham 
> have discovered the gene that enables an extraordinary worm 
> to regenerate its own body parts after amputation -- 
> including a whole head and brain.
> 
> <http://www.physorg.com/news191225651.html>
> ...
> This could be useful for the Monty Python Black Knight...

Come back and fight!  Only a flesh wound!  

> But if we regrow another head after accidentally mislaying 
> our present one, surely we cannot regrow memories as well? ?
> Hard to tell with a worm, of course. ?But it could be a 
> tricky situation for humans... BillK

The real trick would be to regrow memories in such a way that they are
better and more pleasant than the original memories.  Think of the market
for such a technology.  Surely there are buttloads of money to be made by
the first person who masters it.

Memory is a puzzle.  According to my very limited understanding (to which I
eagerly invite instruction from the local groksters) every time we access a
memory, we actually rewrite it in a sense.  So would not some memories be
subject to drift, from multiple accesses?

Reason I am interested: I am writing a book about career events that
happened a long time ago, but I fear that I am remembering old times as much
more pleasant than they actually were at the time.  My recollections are
about happy, funny, interesting times, whereas at the time I was probably
annoyed, frustrated and bored at least part of the time.  By forgetting the
bad and fondly recalling the good stuff, my own memories paint the past in a
far more favorable light than they deserve perhaps.

I don't know how to compensate for that, or even if I would want to.

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 16:57:19 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:57:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How the Free Market system works to educate people
In-Reply-To: <s2yee50357e1004270833rb8555e2v39bc1f56fdd8fa83@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t2jee50357e1004270335jcd65c9dq64fdce7e3534bac8@mail.gmail.com><70E75FEF2EC94A46B47603F6FDC0D447@spike>
	<s2yee50357e1004270833rb8555e2v39bc1f56fdd8fa83@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5985F1262B92425C94E69C21F9BC83BE@spike>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 8:33 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] How the Free Market system works to educate people
> 
> On 4/27/10, spike wrote:
> >  Excellent!  Billk, this explains why people who live in 
> free market 
> > systems  know to not buy expensive cookies from guys in white coats.
> 
> 
> I knew education was expensive in the US, but not *that* expensive...

Actually it doesn't have to be expensive.
 
> First the cookie diet...

I never bought that.

>... then the pet rocks craze...

Never bought one.

>... then the gadgets to run your car on water...

Not only did we never buy that, we get a free education by asking the local
groksters why it is that cars cannot run on water.  

I did have some fun with it however.  In 1998 I had a truck which cracked an
exhaust manifold.  The truck would still run fine, but it leaked water into
the exhaust, causing it belch puffy white clouds of steamy vapor.  I drove
it that way for months.  I made up signs which read "Experimental vehicle,
runs on water."  {8^D

>...Next thing you know you're buying CDOs
> from Goldman Sachs and wondering where all your money went.
> 
> Now I realize.  It all went on education.  :) BillK

Ja, the capitalist free market system is not kind to fools, and is
particularly hard on greedy fools.  It sets up a great paradox.  We know
that if any investment scheme offers unually high returns, it hidden high
risk.  If it sounds too good to be true, it is.  So it opens up a market for
criminals to offer hidden high risk investments at low returns.

spike



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Apr 27 18:42:58 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:42:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
Message-ID: <129707.34873.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 4/27/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I see little
> justification for dropping down into the gravity well to
> collect interest on
> it, instead of going straight to the solar sails now.

Because very few people want solar sails now.  But lots of
people want platinum down in the gravity well now.

Again, it's not like there is a severely limited supply of
it out there.  There is a larger supply than can be used
in the next century - by which time, we will hopefully
have access to an even larger supply (Kuiper Belt/Oort
Cloud) - which means we can act as if there is an infinite
supply in practice.  Dropping platinum into the gravity
well does not prevent grabbing another asteroid and making
solar sails out of it.

It is true that at any given time, only a finite amount of
platinum will have been harvested.  Those that do the
harvesting have first say in how it gets used, by how and
where they give it to others.  Presently, that means this
will be dictated by those who fund the operation.  Which
of these is easier: finding someone who will fund
harvesting asteroids for solar sails, or finding someone
who will fund harvesting asteroids for use on Earth?

It is a lot harder to fund the former than the latter,
and not just the "if something is worth doing" type of
"harder".  Instead, funding the former is practically
impossible at the present time, while the latter is at
least potentially possible currently, and the latter can
eventually make the former possible.  More importantly,
the latter is the only means that has been identified so
far to make the former possible.  Therefore, insisting
on the former exclusively - insisting that nothing must
come back down the gravity well - has the practical
effect of insisting that space industrialization never
happen.

In other words, by insisting that the platinum stay
outside the gravity well, you are in effect insisting
that no one ever be able to make use of it - which is
the exact opposite of the reason you claim to want to
keep it up there.

I have presented a way by which some (indeed, most) of
the platinum can eventually be used in space.  It's
just that we have to start by sending some down the
gravity well.


From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Apr 27 19:00:03 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:00:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BD73433.7020703@mac.com>

Post Futurist wrote:
> The current issue of Newsweek says iPAD will revolutionize it all, 
> including "reading" and "watching".
> What is it going to be? wall size HD? a holodeck? why the hype? it is 
> good enough on the face of it; why the oversell? why do these things 
> have to be made to sound like the Second Coming?

There is a lot of hype.  On the other hand I know of very few people 
that have actually used on that did not want one of their own ASAP.  It 
is a great little product.  Will it replace laptops?  Over my dead body! 
  At least as long as it has proprietary locked down software and no 
multi-tasking that is user accessible.   However, many laptop owners 
don't use their machines for a great deal more than the iPad provides. 
So the iPad may have an effect on laptop and especially netbook markets 
although it is not as capable as either.

What I would love is a laptop where the entire bottom half of the clam 
shell was a big multitouch pad.  It is past time to get beyond the WIMP 
interface.

- s



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Apr 27 19:03:40 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:03:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] iPAD hype?
In-Reply-To: <x2lee50357e1004211329wfd451c30k336e2f8c66d4aca7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <911523.35556.qm@web59901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<x2lee50357e1004211329wfd451c30k336e2f8c66d4aca7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD7350C.70509@mac.com>

BillK wrote:
> On 4/21/10, Post Futurist wrote:
>> The current issue of Newsweek says iPAD will revolutionize it all,
>> including "reading" and "watching".
>> What is it going to be? wall size HD? a holodeck? why the hype?
>> it is good enough on the face of it; why the oversell? why do these
>> things have to be made to sound like the Second Coming?
>>
>>
> 
> It's called marketing.
> 
> The iPad is an entertainment device. The ads are not aimed at techie
> computer types. They are not the main market. Apple is aiming to sell
> millions of iPads to people with spare cash who want to watch movies,
> listen to music, read books (even!), check their Facebook page every
> 15 minutes, etc.
> 
> As one reviewer said, the acme of computer technology is now aimed at
> a market segment that grunts and points.  ;)
> 

Hardly.  Survey the thousands of apps out there and tell me they are all 
grunting and pointing.  Think of the iPad as roughly a super-digital 
legal pad.  I would much rather carry this form factor to a meeting or 
onto a plane than my laptop.   For what I want to do there it is a 
better device.  Now of course as soon as I get there I have something I 
want to do that I can't do on it.

- s



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Apr 27 19:24:31 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:24:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>

spike wrote:
> ... 
>> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
>>
>> --- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>> OK, I thought about it longer.  Now I will now explain my 
>> thoughts in a parable...Jesus.
>>
>> It is also flawed.  I have already explained most of the 
>> errors (like your assumption that platinum has no 
>> non-financial value on the ground, or even that the value in 
>> orbit necessarily dwarfs the value on the ground*)...
>>
>> * Another way to think of it: even if the eventual value in 
>> orbit is extreme, that's still eventual.Arian
> 
> Ja, my notion is that platinum creates its own value in orbit as soon as we
> figure out how to use it to make reflective surfaces.  In the asteroid belt,
> we have plenty of iron, plenty of silicon.  These are good structural metals
> but neither of these are particularly good reflectors in the sunlight
> spectrum.  We use the platinum, chromium and silver as reflective layers
> over the iron and silicon.
> 

I understand that there is a fair amount of aluminum silicate around. 
So aluminum backed mirrors shouldn't be that difficult from material on 
hand.  Or just aluminum lightweight shells for that matter.

> We already have this technology.  Imagine a very thin mylar balloon, 100
> meter radius, launched gently from an asteroid, in interstellar space far
> from the nearest gravitational influence, inflated to about 10
> nano-atmospheres, with a free-floating ion-deposition gun inside the
> balloon, vaporizing a ten kilogram hunk of chromium or platinum.  The
> balloon is set to rotation about the X axis, the ion gun rotates about the Y
> axis, while spraying a tenuous mist of vaporized metal at a rate of about a
> milligram per second.  The inside of the balloon is eventually coated with a
> reflective surface.  Cut circular pieces out of the balloon, reshape
> slightly and you have an enormous solar concentrator.

Wouldn't it be as easy to paint the outside and then pop the balloon?

> 
> The free floating ion deposition device need not be connected in any way to
> the balloon, for as the ion gun drifted toward the wall of the balloon, the
> force of the ions hitting the nearer surface would gently nudge the balloon
> away, keeping the ion gun roughly near the center of the balloon.  
> 
> With the numbers I arbitrarily called out, the average thickness of the
> coating would be about 4 nanometers, or close enough to 30 atomic radii for
> platinum.  The ion gun I specified could work on solar power alone at that
> flux level and would accomplish the complete ionization of the 10 kg mass in
> about four months.  A 15 atom thick average coating of chromium on mylar
> would reflect about 20 percent-ish of the sunlight that hits it (if I recall
> correctly.)  
> 
> What could we do with that?
> 
> We have all the technology needed to do this today, with the possible
> exception of the device needed to cut circular pieces of the balloon and set
> them to gently rotating.  But that doesn't sound too hard to me.  The
> platinum would make great solar concentrators and solar sails.  I see little
> justification for dropping down into the gravity well to collect interest on
> it, instead of going straight to the solar sails now.

How hard is a cutting torch given the materials on hand on using a solar 
furnace to drive it?  Lasers shouldn't be hard to power either.


- s


From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Apr 27 19:35:55 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:35:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <129707.34873.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <129707.34873.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BD73C9B.5030306@mac.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:
> --- On Tue, 4/27/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> I see little
>> justification for dropping down into the gravity well to
>> collect interest on
>> it, instead of going straight to the solar sails now.
> 
> Because very few people want solar sails now.  But lots of
> people want platinum down in the gravity well now.

No reason to not do both in the proportions that make sense based on demand.

> 
> Again, it's not like there is a severely limited supply of
> it out there.  There is a larger supply than can be used
> in the next century - by which time, we will hopefully
> have access to an even larger supply (Kuiper Belt/Oort
> Cloud) - which means we can act as if there is an infinite
> supply in practice.  Dropping platinum into the gravity
> well does not prevent grabbing another asteroid and making
> solar sails out of it.

There is a larger supply in Aten asteroids than we are likely to use in 
a century or this side of full MNT and/or AGI.

> 
> It is true that at any given time, only a finite amount of
> platinum will have been harvested.  Those that do the
> harvesting have first say in how it gets used, by how and
> where they give it to others.  Presently, that means this
> will be dictated by those who fund the operation.

Which will themselves decide based on a mix of what they want to 
accomplish and what is the most profitable use.

> Which
> of these is easier: finding someone who will fund
> harvesting asteroids for solar sails, or finding someone
> who will fund harvesting asteroids for use on Earth?
> 

Perhaps neither.  The first country/corporation/group that gather space 
material and builds out useful space infrastructure will be at the 
center of everything that happens for quite some time.  To me the very 
best use of the material is in space to build out capacities and 
habitats.   Yes I also want to build out space based solar to solve 
energy problems on earch and I want to drop resources down the gravity 
well.  But the true future is in space.


> It is a lot harder to fund the former than the latter,
> and not just the "if something is worth doing" type of
> "harder".  Instead, funding the former is practically
> impossible at the present time, while the latter is at
> least potentially possible currently, and the latter can
> eventually make the former possible. 

How much?  How much money and what kind of personnel and other resources 
are needed to fund and flesh out early NEO asteroid mining?   That is 
the first critical question.  Given the numbers then figure out how to 
get the funding.  Guessing beforehand what is and is not a good pitch is 
likely not the best use of our time.


- s


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 20:31:10 2010
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:31:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cold Fusion experimentally confirmed
Message-ID: <k2o29666bf31004271331x4d3193c2n3065a018d4561021@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=216200272

Okay, folks.  Have at it.

PJ


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 20:35:33 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:35:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike><1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
Message-ID: <6DFFEFD7DF454032BA475B3782E0E499@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of spike
> ... 
> The free floating ion deposition device need not be connected 
> in any way to the balloon...

> We have all the technology needed to do this today, with the 
> possible exception of the device needed to cut circular 
> pieces of the balloon and set them to gently rotating... spike

After I thought about this for a while, I received inspiration from one of
my son's toys and realized we don't need any device to cut the balloon into
circular pieces.  Instead, the balloon could be constructed like a soccer
ball, with the seams glued together using a type of cyano-acrylate adhesive
which vaporizes over time when in a hard vacuum (we discovered this
characteristic the hard way.)

We make the soccer ball balloon, ten pentagons and twenty hexagons, each
with side length about 40 meters, glue the seams with the cyano-acrylate
with the ion gun and extruder inside, inflate to about a nano-atm, coat the
inside with a reflective material would likely take a few months, extrude
beams about 40 meters in length and about the size of a soda straw, using a
thermal-setting elastomer such as a polyvinyl chloride material, attach the
corners of the hexagons and pentagons using the beams to a central hub
perhaps the size and mass of a baseball, which contains the processor and
actuator to move a pair of masses to shift the CG slightly so the sail can
orient itself with respect to the sun.  Eventually the cyano-acrylate glue
sublimes sufficiently that the seams split open, the ion gun floats free,
waiting for the next cargo of platinum and another mylar balloon, and 30
individual solar sails are set free to navigate the vastness of
interplanetary space. 

We have all the technology to do all this today, if we make the mylar here
on the deck, along with the 30 hubs.  I don't think we can make the mylar
out of asteroid material.

We could use the resulting solar sails to haul asteroid material down to
HEO, a few grams at a time.

spike  



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Apr 27 21:07:25 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD73C9B.5030306@mac.com>
Message-ID: <639495.84724.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 4/27/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> How much?? How much money and what kind of personnel
> and other resources are needed to fund and flesh out early
> NEO asteroid mining????That is the first
> critical question.? Given the numbers then figure out
> how to get the funding.

Exactly.  But even if the questions needed to answer this
are at least identified, that itself can go in your
presentation.

With the plan I outlined, that breaks into 4 major steps:

1. Survey.  Get reasonably certain of a target's mineral
composition.  Be prepared to survey multiple targets, if
the first choice either can not be verified enough or
turns out not to have the desired target composition.
The goal is that whoever funds the rest will agree, "We
believe that W amount of X can be sold for $Y, which is
greater than the $Z this costs, and we believe that we
can obtain at least W amount of X from this specific
asteroid."  This step may have to be preformed
pre-funding; fortunately, it is also something NASA is
capable of doing, if they can be talked into sponsoring
this step (see Centennial Challenge suggestion).
Expected cost: less than one million USD.  (Satellite
telescopes have run from tens of millions to billions
of USD, but this can use existing hardware without
buying new, and may be doable with far cheaper ground
telescopes.)

2. Capture.  Design, build, and launch a tug to move the
asteroid into high Earth orbit, possibly L4/L5.  Solar
sail might be the best technology here, both for
robustness and delivering delta-V to a massive target,
and for lightness of probe (meaning less mass to launch,
which substantially reduces costs; there is also less
mass to accelerate to the target, and thus even less
mass to launch).  Remote operation of the tug needs to
be considered, but will likely only take a few people
part-time work.  Coordinating third party efforts
(other people making sure your asteroid is on track),
among other PR activities, may also a significant cost
component.  Expected cost: tens of millions of USD
(based on cost of previous solar sail missions).

3. Processing.  Design, build, and launch something to
break down the asteroid, build iron-lined recovery
meteorites, and load them with high-priced payloads.
This equipment is likely to be unavoidably heavy, even
if one uses solar power as much as possible, although
since it only needs to be sent to L4/L5 at most,
launch cost is reduced.  Reuse the space tug to nudge
these meteorites into precise landing trajectories,
preferably entering the atmosphere at a steep angle to
minimize the chance of bouncing off the atmosphere
(and to narrow down the radius of possible landing
zones).  Expected cost: tens to hundreds of millions
of USD (most mining machines are thousands or tens of
thousands of kilograms, and launch is to high orbit -
not just to LEO, which is cheaper - so this is
primarily launch costs, though design and manufacture
of processing machinery will likely be in the same
range).

4. Recovery and sale.  Rent ships to screen the
expected landing zone of other traffic during the
splashdown, and to quickly recover the meteorite.
This will likely be a media event, so media relations
may also be a significant cost component - or they
could be a minor, supplementary source of funds.
Then, actually sell the platinum and ship it where it
needs to be shipped.  (In theory, the simplest part of
the deal.  In practice, the biggest potential money
loss.  Recruiting someone with experience selling bulk
precious metals is practically mandatory, though it
can wait until this step so long as no agreements are
made regarding distribution of the metal before this
person is available to review them.)  Expected cost:
single digit million USD (based on cost of renting
salvage tugs).



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Apr 27 21:35:23 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] big dumb booster question
In-Reply-To: <087A9A01036B410981F71F833AD091B1@spike>
Message-ID: <795722.19134.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> > 
> > How well, and how long, would they last on Venus?
> 
> Hmmm, don't know about that.

Can you ask?

> > What about sundiving - let a probe send back telemetry as 
> > long as possible?...
> 
> That is a good possibility.? The outer layer chars to
> pretty much pure
> carbon, which is really good for high temperatures.

So how does one submit these ideas to DARPA?  Is there a
site, or can you do it through your contacts?

> > Do they stand up to volcanoes well?
> 
> Drop it in thru the ash?? Of course it wouldn't
> survive any impact, but I
> think you had in mind having it send chemical composition
> and temperature
> data before impact?? That's an idea.

Yeah.  I was thinking to send it in through the magma of an
active one mid-eruption, actually.  Let it swim upstream
(where "upstream" is down: go in through a flow that's
being pushed upward) as far as it can get.

[re: use as artillery]
> The problem we never could solve is that it would look to
> the commies like a
> nuclear attack.? So we put in the Disadvantage column
> "might trigger
> unlimited nuclear war" with the parenthetical comment:
> (bad).? We had all
> seen Ghost Busters.? So it was tested but never put
> into production.

So don't use it against a nuclear power.  For instance, if
we have to invade Iran in 5 years or so, it might be
useful.  Or reserve it for use in conjunction with regular
war, so it'll be obviously non-nuclear (because we're not
sending our troops through land we've just irradiated, and
they know it).



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Apr 27 21:43:56 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:43:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <639495.84724.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <639495.84724.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BD75A9C.1020300@mac.com>



Adrian Tymes wrote:
> --- On Tue, 4/27/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>> How much?  How much money and what kind of personnel
>> and other resources are needed to fund and flesh out early
>> NEO asteroid mining?   That is the first
>> critical question.  Given the numbers then figure out
>> how to get the funding.
> 
> Exactly.  But even if the questions needed to answer this
> are at least identified, that itself can go in your
> presentation.
> 
> With the plan I outlined, that breaks into 4 major steps:
> 
> 1. Survey.  Get reasonably certain of a target's mineral
> composition.  Be prepared to survey multiple targets, if
> the first choice either can not be verified enough or
> turns out not to have the desired target composition.
> The goal is that whoever funds the rest will agree, "We
> believe that W amount of X can be sold for $Y, which is
> greater than the $Z this costs, and we believe that we
> can obtain at least W amount of X from this specific
> asteroid."  This step may have to be preformed
> pre-funding; fortunately, it is also something NASA is
> capable of doing, if they can be talked into sponsoring
> this step (see Centennial Challenge suggestion).
> Expected cost: less than one million USD.  (Satellite
> telescopes have run from tens of millions to billions
> of USD, but this can use existing hardware without
> buying new, and may be doable with far cheaper ground
> telescopes.)
>

What is reasonable?  Based on meteorite data we have a good rough ideas 
of composition of various types.  Do we actually need to land on 
multiple targets or just get close enough for better spectographic data? 
    How much composition data already exists?  I ran across a "Mining 
the Sky" ppt that was interesting in that it gave a lot of information 
about data mining the information already gathered from various sources. 
  It is here:

There is also  MPA/ESO/MPE symposia with that title that puts out sort 
of pricey proceedings.  And I found the following link to something up 
my alley which is the type of object persistence system needed for such 
large data navigation.  OK, not that germane but I enjoyed it a lot.  :)

http://fwd4.me/D5q

> 2. Capture.  Design, build, and launch a tug to move the
> asteroid into high Earth orbit, possibly L4/L5.  Solar
> sail might be the best technology here, both for
> robustness and delivering delta-V to a massive target,
> and for lightness of probe (meaning less mass to launch,
> which substantially reduces costs; there is also less
> mass to accelerate to the target, and thus even less
> mass to launch).  Remote operation of the tug needs to
> be considered, but will likely only take a few people
> part-time work.  Coordinating third party efforts
> (other people making sure your asteroid is on track),
> among other PR activities, may also a significant cost
> component.  Expected cost: tens of millions of USD
> (based on cost of previous solar sail missions).

Well, I disagree with your step 2.  I don't plan to move it before doing 
  at least some processing in situ. So I would substitute the design of 
a minimal space processing unit or set of units.  I would not use a tug 
per se to move the results or a partial or whole asteroid in any case. 
Sling shot around the moon can help a lot with the delta V.  Put 
trimming thrusters on the targets being moved where possible rather than 
an expensive tug.

> 
> 3. Processing.  Design, build, and launch something to
> break down the asteroid, build iron-lined recovery
> meteorites, and load them with high-priced payloads.
> This equipment is likely to be unavoidably heavy, even
> if one uses solar power as much as possible, although
> since it only needs to be sent to L4/L5 at most,
> launch cost is reduced.  Reuse the space tug to nudge
> these meteorites into precise landing trajectories,
> preferably entering the atmosphere at a steep angle to
> minimize the chance of bouncing off the atmosphere
> (and to narrow down the radius of possible landing
> zones).  Expected cost: tens to hundreds of millions
> of USD (most mining machines are thousands or tens of
> thousands of kilograms, and launch is to high orbit -
> not just to LEO, which is cheaper - so this is
> primarily launch costs, though design and manufacture
> of processing machinery will likely be in the same
> range).
> 

Any hollowed meteor (except the mushier slush balls) will do for rad 
hardened storage / habitat and possible reentry ablation.  Stone seems 
as good as iron for the outer shell.  L4/L5 may not be the immediate 
target as we need this material much closer to earth for building out 
space infrastructure around the planet.

I am wondering if we can put up very light weight processors that have 
one task, to process out volatiles for more fuel.  Nudge this stuff into 
LEO orbits to fuel move out to GEO.  I don't know if that is possible 
very early on but it would be sweet if it was.

The costs is too mushy of course.  With what kind of launch?  Putting up 
what kinds and how much material?  What sorts of trained personnel?

> 4. Recovery and sale.  Rent ships to screen the
> expected landing zone of other traffic during the
> splashdown, and to quickly recover the meteorite.
> This will likely be a media event, so media relations
> may also be a significant cost component - or they
> could be a minor, supplementary source of funds.
> Then, actually sell the platinum and ship it where it
> needs to be shipped.  (In theory, the simplest part of
> the deal.  In practice, the biggest potential money
> loss.  Recruiting someone with experience selling bulk
> precious metals is practically mandatory, though it
> can wait until this step so long as no agreements are
> made regarding distribution of the metal before this
> person is available to review them.)  Expected cost:
> single digit million USD (based on cost of renting
> salvage tugs).
>

Why would you drop a heavy rock into the ocean?  Why not in remote 
desert or some such where it at least will not sink?  Why only platinum 
or precious metals?  Thousands of tons of high grade iron and nickel is 
also a substantial commodity.


- samantha



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Apr 27 22:26:18 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:26:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD75A9C.1020300@mac.com>
Message-ID: <821326.85990.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 4/27/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Adrian Tymes wrote:
> > The goal is that whoever funds the rest will agree,
> "We
> > believe that W amount of X can be sold for $Y, which
> is
> > greater than the $Z this costs, and we believe that
> we
> > can obtain at least W amount of X from this specific
> > asteroid."? This step may have to be preformed
> > pre-funding; fortunately, it is also something NASA
> is
> > capable of doing, if they can be talked into
> sponsoring
> > this step (see Centennial Challenge suggestion).
> > Expected cost: less than one million USD.?
> (Satellite
> > telescopes have run from tens of millions to billions
> > of USD, but this can use existing hardware without
> > buying new, and may be doable with far cheaper ground
> > telescopes.)
> 
> What is reasonable?

Whatever's demanded by the people who'll fund the rest.
Of course the data is needed in and of itself, but if
you're looking for a specific minimum level of certainty
to get to, that's it.

> I ran across a
> "Mining the Sky" ppt that was interesting in that it gave a
> lot of information about data mining the information already
> gathered from various sources.? It is here:

Missing link.

> Well, I disagree with your step 2.

Fair enough.  There's ample room for other plans, and there's
certainly a valid case for using fuel gathered on site.  But
one has to decide on a plan before one can cost it out.  ;)

If you manage to get into that AIAA meeting to give your
presentation, you might want to list both plans, partly to
note there are alternatives (they may be tired of people
pitching their own One True Way) - even though both
alternatives are "mine the asteroids", a significant jump
from the status quo.

> > 3. Processing.? Design, build, and launch
> Any hollowed meteor (except the mushier slush balls) will
> do for rad hardened storage / habitat and possible reentry
> ablation.? Stone seems as good as iron for the outer
> shell.? L4/L5 may not be the immediate target as we
> need this material much closer to earth for building out
> space infrastructure around the planet.

I just suggested L4/L5 as a parking orbit for stage 2, to
reduce the panic from those convinced the asteroid will hit
Earth.  Also, a big, unprocessed ball of rock might cause
problems for other satellites (in terms of particles shed)
if stored in GEO or lower.  Eventually, the material does
indeed come to a lower orbit.

> The costs is too mushy of course.? With what kind of
> launch?? Putting up what kinds and how much
> material?? What sorts of trained personnel?

Problem is, to get absolutely precise figures on that
will require doing a fair bit of the engineering - which
will require money.  It is said that Boeing doesn't
actually know how much an individual 777 costs to
produce, because they've never bothered to spend the
money to figure it out to that level.

> Why would you drop a heavy rock into the ocean?? Why
> not in remote desert or some such where it at least will not
> sink?

That works too, if you can secure an area of desert large
enough.  (Large areas might be easier to temporarily secure at
sea than on land.)  The point is just to do it far from an
inhabited area.

> Why only platinum or precious metals??
> Thousands of tons of high grade iron and nickel is also a
> substantial commodity.

Platinum first, because that has the best selling price.
(Which material you make a meteor of, is unlikely to
substantially affect the cost of getting it down to Earth,
recovering it, and selling it - unless you find radioactives
or other substances that require special handling.)

But if the cost proves to be low enough (as measured by the
first few recoveries) that the iron and nickel can be
recovered profitably, then sure.  More funding to go recover
more asteroids, so there's even more iron and nickel
available in space to make stuff with.



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 22:38:51 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:38:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <129707.34873.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
	<129707.34873.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9AC5461E9457466BA278CD35F4013900@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> ...
> 
> In other words, by insisting that the platinum stay outside 
> the gravity well, you are in effect insisting that no one 
> ever be able to make use of it - which is the exact opposite 
> of the reason you claim to want to keep it up there.
> 
> I have presented a way by which some (indeed, most) of the 
> platinum can eventually be used in space.  It's just that we 
> have to start by sending some down the gravity well.  Adrian

OK this seems convincing enough.  

We can work this problem in parallel.  You figure out how to get the
platinum down here, I will figure out a way to use some of it for mirror
surfaces, and there will likely be plenty left over.  I confess I am stumped
on how to pay for my scheme (without government involvement of course).  I
must figure out how to get the payload mass waaaaaay down there, like a
twenty kilos to 3 AU circular.  That would cost about fifty-ish million
bucks, with a pegasus class launcher.  But that wouldn't carry enough PVs to
generate sufficient power to vaporize the reflective material at a milligram
per second.  Might take longer than 4 months to coat the inside of that
balloon.

If my scheme is successful, we could use it to haul the platinum from 3 AU
down to about a 5000 NM HEO.  From there I don't know how to recover it, but
it seems like it should be possible.

spike 





From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 27 22:49:29 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:49:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike><1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com><8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
	<4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of samantha
> ...
> > 
> 
> I understand that there is a fair amount of aluminum silicate around. 
> So aluminum backed mirrors shouldn't be that difficult from 
> material on hand.  Or just aluminum lightweight shells for 
> that matter...

Ja it isn't a matter of having enough material.  For solar sails, the game
is to get the greatest reflectivity per unit mass.  Aluminum silicate can't
be vapor deposited, as far as I know, but chromium can be deposited on
mylar.  Aluminum can be as well, but I don't know about silicon.  I need to
check however; the materials guys are finding new tricky stuff all the time.

> 
...
> 
> Wouldn't it be as easy to paint the outside and then pop the balloon?

Ja outside or inside, but keep the mylar as a structural element.

> 
> >...
> 
> How hard is a cutting torch given the materials on hand on 
> using a solar furnace to drive it?  Lasers shouldn't be hard 
> to power either.
> 
> 
> - s

Nothing wrong with a cutting torch or lasers, but keep in mind that all this
stuff is done by robots.  Getting humans waaaay the hell out to 2.6 AU is
pretty much out of the question for now.  So having glue that vaporizes
after about a few years in orbit seems like a good way to go.  Even then,
the tech is tricky, since it takes a couple years to get out to the asteroid
belt from here.

spike






From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Apr 27 23:46:21 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <9AC5461E9457466BA278CD35F4013900@spike>
Message-ID: <872724.33852.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 4/27/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> OK this seems convincing enough.? 

Thanks.

> If my scheme is successful, we could use it to haul the
> platinum from 3 AU
> down to about a 5000 NM HEO.? From there I don't know
> how to recover it, but
> it seems like it should be possible.

Indeed.  Your balloon is basically a solar sail, right?
We can use that to decelerate the object, slowing its
orbit so it hits the atmosphere with a trajectory steep
enough that it won't just skip past.  The timing of the
deceleration dictates where it will hit the atmosphere.
Once that happens, gravity and air friction mean that
it will definitely land, in short order.

Random wind currents give some uncertainty as to where
it will land from there, but again, based on previous
efforts to this end, it will probably be in a circle
with a radius of less than 100 kilometers; the center
of this circle can easily be calculated from the
position and velocity of atmospheric entry.  Make sure
that circle is over sea, desert, or some other
unpopulated area, and have vehicles (ships, trucks, or
what have you) on hand to recover it.



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Apr 28 00:21:17 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:21:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike> <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
	<1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>

spike wrote:
> Nothing wrong with a cutting torch or lasers, but keep in mind that all this
> stuff is done by robots.  Getting humans waaaay the hell out to 2.6 AU is
> pretty much out of the question for now.  So having glue that vaporizes
> after about a few years in orbit seems like a good way to go.  Even then,
> the tech is tricky, since it takes a couple years to get out to the asteroid
> belt from here.
> 

I am talking about ATENS which are around 1 AU.  So where does 2.6 AU 
come from?

- samantha




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 28 04:02:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:02:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike><1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com><8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
	<4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com><1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike>
	<4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
Message-ID: <467C94719EF047FFAD3DAD152A8A31A1@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of samantha
> ...
> > 
> 
> I am talking about ATENS which are around 1 AU.  So where 
> does 2.6 AU come from?
> 
> - samantha

2.6 AU is where most of the asteroids are scattered.  True there are a few
Atens.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 28 04:35:27 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:35:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike><1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com><8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
	<4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com><1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike>
	<4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of samantha
...
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> spike wrote:
> > ...Getting humans waaaay the hell out 
> > to 2.6 AU is pretty much out of the question for now...

> I am talking about ATENS which are around 1 AU.  So where 
> does 2.6 AU come from? - samantha

It occurred to me that those close-in asteroids must be out of the plane of
the ecliptic.  Otherwise the gravitational influence of the other close-in
planets would have messed up the orbit by now.  The 2.6 to 2.8 AU asteroids
were formed by a planetary collision with something big, so that debris is
in the plane.  If the asteroid is very far out of the ecliptic plane, the
amount of delta V needed to get to it is appalling.  We might be able to use
the moon to get some out-of plane delta V however.

Samantha do you have a reference which gives the Atens' angle to the plane?
Did you have in mind sending actual proles out there?

spike




From algaenymph at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 13:45:29 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:45:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wesley Du Charme, 71, psychologist,
 author of "Becoming Immortal: 	Nanotechnology, You and the Demise of Death."
In-Reply-To: <g2jffd22f9d1004270639w71d50d48t7fe22bf6247e7982@mail.gmail.com>
References: <g2jffd22f9d1004270639w71d50d48t7fe22bf6247e7982@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD6EA79.5010804@gmail.com>

Dave Sill wrote:
> His family agreed, said his daughter Nicole Frens of Missoula, Mont.
> His head is being kept in a metal box at Alcor Life Extension
> Foundation in Scottsdale, Ariz., an organization that believes bodies
> can be reanimated when nanotechnology has progressed enough to
> reconstruct a body. The head will be preserved in liquid nitrogen at
> minus 200 degrees. Freezing with water destroys cells, said Mike Noel,
> a friend of Du Charme's.
>   
Yep, reconstructing his brain into an emulation's pretty much his only 
hope for reincarnation.

A question remains: who's going to bring him back to life?


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 21:25:23 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:25:23 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Dyson Sphere discussion
Message-ID: <j2na6a17bd41004281425hccc3c29csbbc6574f3f8bb676@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't read the whole thing, but the comment by Brett Bellmore was
more than interesting.  BB addresses the engineering problems,... and
solves them.  Elegantly, even.   Yippee!!

Check it out, and see what you think.

If I can track down BB's email, I'll invite him to participate in any
discussion that develops.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                         Ray Charles


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 22:21:57 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:21:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Wesley Du Charme, 71, psychologist,
	author of "Becoming 	Immortal: Nanotechnology,
	You and the Demise of Death."
In-Reply-To: <4BD6EA79.5010804@gmail.com>
References: <g2jffd22f9d1004270639w71d50d48t7fe22bf6247e7982@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD6EA79.5010804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <o2sa6a17bd41004281521xcfbc5cddu7703c63d7d2b2b21@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 7:45 AM, AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yep, reconstructing his brain into an emulation's pretty much his only hope
> for reincarnation.

A bold, confident-sounding assertion.  Posted to a list where this
subject has been repeatedly discussed for at least ten years.  Don't
feel intimidated, but you'll need to make a case in support of your
assertion.

> A question remains: who's going to bring him back to life?

What question?  By contract, Alcor is maintaining the patient, and by
contract, when the tech is available, Alcor will apply that tech, and
bring the patient back.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Death is really just an engineering problem."
                       Regina Pancake


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 28 22:44:16 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:44:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <872724.33852.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <9AC5461E9457466BA278CD35F4013900@spike>
	<872724.33852.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <16566D07FDA44DF3AABF7672FB32CC08@spike>

 
On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
...
> 
> --- On Tue, 4/27/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > OK this seems convincing enough.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> > If my scheme is successful, we could use it to haul the 
> platinum from 3 AU down to about a 5000 NM HEO...

Hey cool, check this:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=asteroid-24-themis


I recognized a flaw in my reasoning from yesterday.  Platinum is a good
reflector in the shorter wavelength end of the solar spectrum, if you
measure it as a function of layer thickness.  But layer thickness isn't what
matters.  Rather once one takes into account reflectivity per unit mass, the
crazy high density of platinum makes it not as good as plain old common
aluminum.  It takes more energy to vapor deposit a given mass of aluminum,
but the final product of aluminized mylar would be likely a better solar
sail than a platinum mylar reflector, since it would be lighter.

We already have plenty of experience with aluminized mylar: those toy helium
balloons so common today are made from that.  

I have found only one material that works better than aluminum in this
specific reflectivity: lithium.  I just don't know how much lithium is
available in a typical asteroid.  Another thing I don't know is if there
exists a multilayer solution that would be better than lithium in specific
reflectivity, such as mylar aluminum gold chromium.

Stay tuned.

spike




From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Apr 28 22:47:49 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:47:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <467C94719EF047FFAD3DAD152A8A31A1@spike>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike> <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
	<1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike> <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
	<467C94719EF047FFAD3DAD152A8A31A1@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD8BB15.8040206@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  
> 
>> ...On Behalf Of samantha
>> ...
>> I am talking about ATENS which are around 1 AU.  So where 
>> does 2.6 AU come from?
>>
>> - samantha
> 
> 2.6 AU is where most of the asteroids are scattered.  True there are a few
> Atens.

There are more than enough near earth asteroids to build out space 
habitats at L5 and considerable earth side infrastructure including 
enough space based solar to meet twice our projected end of decade 
energy needs.  That is what my talk was about going after.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Apr 28 22:51:53 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:51:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike> <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
	<1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike> <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
	<BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD8BC09.5010109@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  
> 
>> ...On Behalf Of samantha
> ...
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
>>
>> spike wrote:
>>> ...Getting humans waaaay the hell out 
>>> to 2.6 AU is pretty much out of the question for now...
> 
>> I am talking about ATENS which are around 1 AU.  So where 
>> does 2.6 AU come from? - samantha
> 
> It occurred to me that those close-in asteroids must be out of the plane of
> the ecliptic.  Otherwise the gravitational influence of the other close-in
> planets would have messed up the orbit by now.

They do not last long in those orbits true enough.  And how they are 
replenished is in part an open mystery.  But in the meantime there are 
enough of them of sufficient size to be worth exploiting.  Also some of 
the Amors come close enough to exploit during parts of their orbit. 
Most are not that far out of plane.  Many are in plane.


> Samantha do you have a reference which gives the Atens' angle to the plane?
> Did you have in mind sending actual proles out there?
> 


No, only reports.  I will look for one. There have been probes exploring 
near earth and other asteroids.

- samantha


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 23:18:43 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:18:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Dyson Sphere discussion
In-Reply-To: <j2na6a17bd41004281425hccc3c29csbbc6574f3f8bb676@mail.gmail.com>
References: <j2na6a17bd41004281425hccc3c29csbbc6574f3f8bb676@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <o2wa6a17bd41004281618p49393d5aqca25b24172ededc0@mail.gmail.com>

Whoops!  Forgot the URL.  Here it be.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/04/dyson-swarms-and-dyson-spheres.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Fadvancednano+%28nextbigfuture%29&utm_content=Yahoo!+Mail


On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I haven't read the whole thing, but the comment by Brett Bellmore was
> more than interesting. ?BB addresses the engineering problems,... and
> solves them. ?Elegantly, even. ? Yippee!!
>
> Check it out, and see what you think.
>
> If I can track down BB's email, I'll invite him to participate in any
> discussion that develops.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
> ?"Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Ray Charles
>



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Apr 28 23:37:55 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:37:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD8BC09.5010109@mac.com>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike> <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
	<1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike> <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
	<BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike> <4BD8BC09.5010109@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4BD8C6D3.8080702@mac.com>

samantha wrote:
> spike wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> ...On Behalf Of samantha
>> ...
>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
>>>
>>> spike wrote:
>>>> ...Getting humans waaaay the hell out to 2.6 AU is pretty much out 
>>>> of the question for now...
>>
>>> I am talking about ATENS which are around 1 AU.  So where does 2.6 
>>> AU come from? - samantha
>>
>> It occurred to me that those close-in asteroids must be out of the 
>> plane of
>> the ecliptic.  Otherwise the gravitational influence of the other 
>> close-in
>> planets would have messed up the orbit by now.
>
> They do not last long in those orbits true enough.  And how they are 
> replenished is in part an open mystery.  But in the meantime there are 
> enough of them of sufficient size to be worth exploiting.  Also some 
> of the Amors come close enough to exploit during parts of their orbit. 
> Most are not that far out of plane.  Many are in plane.
>
>
>> Samantha do you have a reference which gives the Atens' angle to the 
>> plane?
>> Did you have in mind sending actual proles out there?
>>
>
>
> No, only reports.  I will look for one. There have been probes 
> exploring near earth and other asteroids.
>
> - samantha
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Here is one.  JPL has a nice queryable database one layer in from this 
link.  Note that they lisst 1116 hazardous asteroids.  So we know at 
least that many come close enough to exploit.  :)

Orbit Diagrams
<http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/orbits/>
I used the ugly query here:
my query 
<http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb_query.cgi?obj_group=neo;obj_kind=ast;obj_numbered=all;ast_orbit_class=ATE;ast_orbit_class=AMO;OBJ_field=0;ORB_field=0;c1_group=ORB;c1_item=Bt;c1_op=%3C%3D;c1_value=0.1;table_format=HTML;max_rows=10;format_option=comp;query=Generate%20Table;c_fields=AaAbAhApBgBhBiBnBrBt;c_sort=BtA;.cgifields=format_option;.cgifields=ast_orbit_class;.cgifields=table_format;.cgifields=obj_kind;.cgifields=obj_group;.cgifields=obj_numbered;.cgifields=com_orbit_class&page=17>


also look at pretty diagram on

Near Earth Objects Map <http://szyzyg.arm.ac.uk/%7Espm/>

and

Asteroid Orbital Elements Database 
<ftp://ftp.lowell.edu/pub/elgb/astorb.html>


- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Apr 28 23:46:19 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:46:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike> <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
	<1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike> <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
	<BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD8C8CB.6050600@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>
> Samantha do you have a reference which gives the Atens' angle to the plane?
> Did you have in mind sending actual proles out there?
>   

On probes

PERMANENT - Asteroids Near Earth - Probes 
<http://www.permanent.com/a-probes.htm>  

is a start.  The Eros probe was the only one that I know successfully 
collected samples from an asteroid. 

This mission looks interesting

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/091121-sfn-hayabusa-japanese-hope.html

- samantha


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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 29 00:10:19 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD8BC09.5010109@mac.com>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike>
	<1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike> <4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com>
	<1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike> <4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com>
	<BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike> <4BD8BC09.5010109@mac.com>
Message-ID: <171664.12445.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
> From: samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wed, April 28, 2010 3:51:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today

Spike inquired:

> Samantha do you have a reference 
> which gives the Atens' angle to the plane?
> Did you have in mind sending 
> actual proles out there?

No, only reports.? I will look 
> for one. There have been probes exploring near earth and other 
> asteroids.

Allow me to save you some time, Samantha...

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/iau/lists/Atens.html

And the digested version:

Atens' Inclination Stats

Count?551
Min?0
Max?56.1
Mean?14.15245009
Median?11.3
Mode?6.5
St Dev?10.65927289

And I believe Spike was asking about sending "proles" i.e. people not "probes".

Incidently platinum would be useful to keep in space for another?reason. It makes great electrodes for the electrolysis of water. Find a water-ice comet, thaw it, hook?the platinum electrodes?up to some solar panels, and you are making rocket fuel "out there". Platinum is a major cost-driver of PEM electrolyzers and fuel cells?here on earth and it's aweful?heavy to?be schlepping?into space.

Stuart LaForge 

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert



      




From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 29 01:30:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:30:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BD8C8CB.6050600@mac.com>
References: <9A5444540EB64557BB0524AB8F6124FC@spike><1458.21741.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com><8D51131B08A545D58027A16A676E6047@spike>
	<4BD739EF.2080207@mac.com><1B93815320E04D19AF9FAC5572F47F86@spike>
	<4BD77F7D.3090709@mac.com><BF71A1AB38C44BF48062C72D4A86D288@spike>
	<4BD8C8CB.6050600@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2506B1B8E32B441A90A9F1B2D898183C@spike>

	Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
	
	
	spike wrote: 


		Samantha do you have a reference which gives the Atens'
angle to the plane?
		Did you have in mind sending actual proles out there?
		  


	On probes
	
	PERMANENT - Asteroids Near Earth - Probes
<http://www.permanent.com/a-probes.htm>    
	
	is a start.  The Eros probe was the only one that I know
successfully collected samples from an asteroid...	- samantha
	
	
	
Thanks, I found one that said one of the Atens was at an inclination of 18
degrees.
 
I realize that the term proles looks like a typo for probes but I did mean
proles in this case.  I mighta misunderstood what you meant earlier; it
sounded like you meant to send actual proles to wield cutting torches and
such, but you mighta meant doing that with robots.

Regarding the earth-grazers, if they come close to earth, it doesn't mean
their velocity is close to ours, which makes them still far away.  On the
other hand, I recall now that we discussed this matter several years ago,
and Harvey Newstrom was involved.  There is an asteroid that is closely
matched to the earth in both perigee and apogee, and is in fact orbit locked
to earth.  I need to look up and find out which one or ones that was.

spike






From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 04:43:27 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:13:27 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
Message-ID: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(Stephen_Baxter_novel)

Has anyone here read this? If you're a space nut and you haven't, then
you should, the obsessive detail on the innards of the US space
program is really something. And if you've ever thought an old Saturn
V should be refurbished and flown now, it's a book for you :-)

But, it bugs the crap out of me for a lot of reasons, particularly the
one-eyed glorification of the old days (the 60s pretty much).

-- 
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 29 05:12:17 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:12:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike>

 

>...On Behalf Of Emlyn
...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(Stephen_Baxter_novel)
> 
> Has anyone here read this? If you're a space nut and you 
> haven't, then you should, the obsessive detail on the innards 
> of the US space program is really something...

Emlyn, from the wiki discription, it almost sounds like a humorless satire.
I recognized some of the allusions, a disease that attacks only Han Chinese
would be a sly reference to HIV, fundamentalist christian president a poke
at Reagan or Carter for instance.

>... And if you've 
> ever thought an old Saturn V should be refurbished and flown 
> now, it's a book for you :-)...

In some important ways, humanity was more advanced in space travel fifty
years ago than today.  We had the industrial base engaged in building that
kind of stuff, we had the top minds in engineering emplyed in it, we had the
attention and the dreams of the populace.  Almost all of that is gone now.  

What has improved?  Control systems, digital processing equipment,
communications gear has improved vastly.  Metallurgy, some.  Lightweight
structures, a little.  Propulsion, no.  Almost nada in real advances in
propulsion technology since the Saturn V days, and I see little on the
horizon in the foreseeable.

If we had a way to build the Saturn V today it would be a hellll of a leap
forward from where we are.  Even the commies aren't producing their biggies
these days.

> But, it bugs the crap out of me for a lot of reasons, 
> particularly the one-eyed glorification of the old days (the 
> 60s pretty much)... Emlyn

The 60s were good days for the rocket biz.  We must be ready to recognize
that technology isn't always forward in all fields.  Almost all and almost
always, but some technologies do rot on the vine.  Plenty of our reference
material generated in that decade is still in use today.  Pretty soon the US
will have no manned access to LEO, after landing guys on the moon over 4
decades ago.

Emlyn if you get a chance, try to talk one on one with some of the rocket
guys who were in their 20s in about 1960.  There were some things that were
just fundamentally different back then, and better in a lot of ways for the
space biz.

spike





  



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 05:20:38 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:50:38 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike>
Message-ID: <l2t710b78fc1004282220j8907e738p95499041f00bf532@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 April 2010 14:42, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> The 60s were good days for the rocket biz. ?We must be ready to recognize
> that technology isn't always forward in all fields. ?Almost all and almost
> always, but some technologies do rot on the vine. ?Plenty of our reference
> material generated in that decade is still in use today. ?Pretty soon the US
> will have no manned access to LEO, after landing guys on the moon over 4
> decades ago.
>
> Emlyn if you get a chance, try to talk one on one with some of the rocket
> guys who were in their 20s in about 1960. ?There were some things that were
> just fundamentally different back then, and better in a lot of ways for the
> space biz.
>
> spike

Spike, you will *love* that book, get your hands on it and have a read.

I'm more than willing to believe what you say here (not my field). My
beef was that his attitude in this regard is not just to space, but to
everything.

The humorless satire thing; it's not really like that, more he's
painting a picture of earth as going down the tubes, which is
important for isolating his space explorers from help. Sort of similar
to what Kim Stanley Robinson did in the Mars trilogy, to create a
believable background for revolution.

-- 
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 29 07:14:52 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 02:14:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>

On 4/28/2010 11:43 PM, Emlyn wrote:

> it bugs the crap out of me for a lot of reasons, particularly the
> one-eyed glorification of the old days (the 60s pretty much).

Of course he wrote it back in 1996, so he had no way of knowing what a 
glorious future would be awaiting us all in 2010.

Damien Broderick


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 07:22:50 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:52:50 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <r2t710b78fc1004290022n9a7f8d0fl26c0cb6ea9a6a1fe@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 April 2010 16:44, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 4/28/2010 11:43 PM, Emlyn wrote:
>
>> it bugs the crap out of me for a lot of reasons, particularly the
>> one-eyed glorification of the old days (the 60s pretty much).
>
> Of course he wrote it back in 1996, so he had no way of knowing what a
> glorious future would be awaiting us all in 2010.
>
> Damien Broderick

That he wrote it in 1996 excuses some stuff (and I do like reading
near-future SF written in the near past, it's like an alternate
history of now), and you could squint and say that the horrible
attitude toward the net was kinda ok in that context, but still,
there's everything else.

BUT, I still recommend it to any space nuts, you'll love it.

-- 
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 29 07:56:48 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 02:56:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] gravel batteries
Message-ID: <4BD93BC0.6060707@satx.rr.com>

Giant Gravel Batteries Could Make Wind Power a Reliable Energy Option
CLAY DILLOW - POPSCI

<http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-04/giant-gravel-batteries-could-make-wind-power-consistent-energy-option>

Wind Power Wind power is green as can be, but incredibly inconsistent. A 
new gravel-battery storage scheme could cheaply store excess power when 
the wind is strong to supplement wind turbines when the gusts die down.

Wind and solar are such promising technologies for the hydrocarbon-free 
energy sources of tomorrow, but intermittent, inconsistent output 
renders them unfeasible as anything other than secondary power sources. 
But UK firm Isentropic thinks it may have solved the problem as it 
pertains to wind power; all we need to stabilize the energy flow from 
turbines are giant batteries made out of gravel.

The battery consists of two large silos filled with crushed rock. 
Electricity generated by the turbine heats and pressurizes argon gas and 
feeds it into the first silo. The gravel is heated to more than 900 
degrees as the hot, pressurized argon passes through, though by the time 
the argon leaves the chamber it has cooled to ambient temperature.

The argon is then fed into the second silo where it returns to normal 
atmospheric pressure, initiating a cooling effect that chills the gas 
and rock to -256 degrees. Thus, the electricity is stored as a 
temperature difference between the two chambers. If the wind ceases to 
blow, the process is reversed, feeding the cold gas back into silo 
number one, powering a generator as it makes the transition back to hot 
from cold.

The process isn't a perfect closed energy loop, but Isentropic claims a 
complete trip through the cycle retains up to 80 percent of the original 
electricity. Even better, gravel is cheap; the cost per kilowatt-hour 
falls somewhere between $10 and $55, depending on the costs of other 
materials. Isentropic also claims the batteries are highly durable; 
according to the company's founder, a 164-foot tall silo with an equal 
diameter would retain half its energy even if left untouched for three 
years.

All that sounds pretty good, but Isentropic has yet to fully prove out 
the idea. The vast temperature differences generated by the argon sound 
quite drastic, and the director of the UK Energy Research Centre points 
out, gravel isn't the ideal material to have inside of machine with 
moving parts. As such, Isentropic is designing a pilot plant that could 
store 16 megawatt-hours in two silos just 23 feet tall by 23 feet in 
diameter. That's enough to cover a pretty big neighborhood during a 
long, windless stretch. The company is also in talks with an unnamed 
utility to build a larger demonstration facility.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Apr 29 16:53:19 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] gravel batteries
In-Reply-To: <4BD93BC0.6060707@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <691327.8761.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> The battery consists of two large silos filled with crushed
> rock. Electricity generated by the turbine heats and
> pressurizes argon gas and feeds it into the first silo.

> The argon is then fed into the second silo where it returns
> to normal atmospheric pressure, initiating a cooling effect
> that chills the gas and rock to -256 degrees. Thus, the
> electricity is stored as a temperature difference between
> the two chambers.

Alternately, just take two large lake basins - possibly
artificial - one lower than the other.  When you have energy,
pump from lower to higher.  When you need energy, drain from
higher to lower and use the flow to spin turbines.  Might be
even cheaper, unless you get protesters worried about the
environmental results of moving that much dihydrogen
monoxide around.


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 29 19:00:18 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:00:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gravel batteries
In-Reply-To: <691327.8761.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BD93BC0.6060707@satx.rr.com>
	<691327.8761.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B765489A31814B7F8FD90F08F25C20D9@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
...
> Subject: Re: [ExI] gravel batteries
> 
> > ...
> 
> > The argon is then fed into the second silo where it returns 
> to normal 
> > atmospheric pressure, initiating a cooling effect that 
> chills the gas 
> > and rock to -256 degrees...
> 
> Alternately, just take two large lake basins - possibly 
> artificial - one lower than the other.  When you have energy, 
> pump from lower to higher.  When you need energy, drain from 
> higher to lower and use the flow to spin turbines.  Might be 
> even cheaper, unless you get protesters worried about the 
> environmental results of moving that much dihydrogen monoxide around.


Ja, and I can assure you that storing energy as potential in water of
different heights is waaaay more efficient than storing it as a temperature
difference between two reservoirs.  If one is going to invest in building
silos, the energy can be extracted relatively efficiently with water
pressure differential.

A couple things I saw wrong with the idea of the argon silos: argon is
expensive and unnecessary for this application.  It is chemically neutral,
but so is nitrogen for this kind of application, and air is 80% nitrogen,
close enough to use that stuff instead.  Far cheaper it is than argon.
Actually one could use helium for this purpose, as it would store more
energy per unit energy used to compress the gas.  However, read on.

Yes we could store energy by creating a huge warm reservoir and a huge cold
reservoir, but extracting the energy and turning it back into electrical
power is appalling in its inefficiency with that technique.  On the other
hand, the scheme can be used anyway if one can find an industrial use for
warm water and cold water.  Such uses abound.  Creating a big pool of hot
water and big pool of cold water is an example of a process which is
perfectly compatible with the intermittent nature of wind power.  The idea
then would be to compress nitrogen and bubble it up to make hot water, then
drop it across a valve into another chamber to make cold water.

Final word on the argon silos.  If they really mean they are going to get
the gravel to -256 (I assume degrees F) it takes one hellllll of a silo, in
thickness of the walls, since it must hold a lotta lotta pressure on the
warm side, and the thickness of the wall would be proportional to the volume
of the container.

spike






From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 19:04:36 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:04:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gravel batteries
In-Reply-To: <B765489A31814B7F8FD90F08F25C20D9@spike>
References: <4BD93BC0.6060707@satx.rr.com>
	<691327.8761.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 
	<B765489A31814B7F8FD90F08F25C20D9@spike>
Message-ID: <k2iffd22f9d1004291204q4aa94344w91ec4bd8a580d21@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:00 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Final word on the argon silos. ?If they really mean they are going to get
> the gravel to -256 (I assume degrees F) it takes one hellllll of a silo, in
> thickness of the walls, since it must hold a lotta lotta pressure on the
> warm side, and the thickness of the wall would be proportional to the volume
> of the container.

Wouldn't the gravel provide the structure necessary?

-Dave



From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Apr 29 20:37:20 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:37:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike>
Message-ID: <4BD9EE00.80107@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  
>
>   
>> ...On Behalf Of Emlyn
>>     
> ...
>   
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(Stephen_Baxter_novel)
>>
>> Has anyone here read this? If you're a space nut and you 
>> haven't, then you should, the obsessive detail on the innards 
>> of the US space program is really something...
>>     
>
> Emlyn, from the wiki discription, it almost sounds like a humorless satire.
> I recognized some of the allusions, a disease that attacks only Han Chinese
> would be a sly reference to HIV, fundamentalist christian president a poke
> at Reagan or Carter for instance.
>   

Carter may have belonged to a fairly fundamentalist sect but he was 
pretty liberal.  Even Reagan was liberal in his religious remarks 
compared to GW Bush and to some degree Bush senior as well.  The latter 
claimed that atheists were not really Americans, for instance.
>   
>> ... And if you've 
>> ever thought an old Saturn V should be refurbished and flown 
>> now, it's a book for you :-)...
>>     
>
> In some important ways, humanity was more advanced in space travel fifty
> years ago than today.  We had the industrial base engaged in building that
> kind of stuff, we had the top minds in engineering emplyed in it, we had the
> attention and the dreams of the populace.  Almost all of that is gone now.  
>
> What has improved?  Control systems, digital processing equipment,
> communications gear has improved vastly.  Metallurgy, some.  Lightweight
> structures, a little.  Propulsion, no.  Almost nada in real advances in
> propulsion technology since the Saturn V days, and I see little on the
> horizon in the foreseeable.
>   

Lots in minituarization, computation and communication though.

> If we had a way to build the Saturn V today it would be a hellll of a leap
> forward from where we are.  Even the commies aren't producing their biggies
> these days.
>   

Is this technically particularly challenging or really big $$$ even?  
Why can't a private group / corp take this on?

>   
>> But, it bugs the crap out of me for a lot of reasons, 
>> particularly the one-eyed glorification of the old days (the 
>> 60s pretty much)... Emlyn
>>     
>
> The 60s were good days for the rocket biz.  We must be ready to recognize
> that technology isn't always forward in all fields.  Almost all and almost
> always, but some technologies do rot on the vine.  Plenty of our reference
> material generated in that decade is still in use today.  Pretty soon the US
> will have no manned access to LEO, after landing guys on the moon over 4
> decades ago.
>   

The more I dig into old tech the more I amazed at how much was dreamed 
up and studied way back then.

> Emlyn if you get a chance, try to talk one on one with some of the rocket
> guys who were in their 20s in about 1960.  There were some things that were
> just fundamentally different back then, and better in a lot of ways for the
> space biz.
>   

I had more than a few friends who did heavy science, especially physics 
majors when space was HOT and there was that push to not be left behind 
in science and math.  In the 70s most of them ended up moving to 
software or in some cases, pumping gas.  It was pretty sad.

- samantha

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From reasonerkevin at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 29 20:22:38 2010
From: reasonerkevin at yahoo.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:22:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <r2t710b78fc1004290022n9a7f8d0fl26c0cb6ea9a6a1fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
	<r2t710b78fc1004290022n9a7f8d0fl26c0cb6ea9a6a1fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <591949.43415.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>







________________________________
From: Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, April 29, 2010 2:22:50 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan

On 29 April 2010 16:44, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 4/28/2010 11:43 PM, Emlyn wrote:
>
>> it bugs the crap out of me for a lot of reasons, particularly the
>> one-eyed glorification of the old days (the 60s pretty much).
>
> Of course he wrote it back in 1996, so he had no way of knowing what a
> glorious future would be awaiting us all in 2010.
>
> Damien Broderick

That he wrote it in 1996 excuses some stuff (and I do like reading
near-future SF written in the near past, it's like an alternate
history of now), and you could squint and say that the horrible
attitude toward the net was kinda ok in that context, but still,
there's everything else.

BUT, I still recommend it to any space nuts, you'll love it.

-- 
Emlyn

I've read nearly everything he's written. He approaches things in a 
slightly different manner each time he writes. Many of his books feature giant engineering projects like space elevators. Several  feature 
different ways to sap energy out of the universe all the way up to the 
heat death. If you enjoyed Titan, get your hands on the "Manifold" 
series. Like any good sci-fi, not everything is 100% accurate, but it 
makes you think.....

Kevin
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From reasonerkevin at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 29 20:23:49 2010
From: reasonerkevin at yahoo.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>






________________________________
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, April 29, 2010 2:14:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan

On 4/28/2010 11:43 PM, Emlyn wrote:

> it bugs the crap out of me for a lot of reasons, particularly the
> one-eyed glorification of the old days (the 60s pretty much).

Of course he wrote it back in 1996, so he had no way of knowing what a glorious future would be awaiting us all in 2010.

Damien Broderick
_______________________________________________
What I thought was most interesting was that in this book, Columbia meet's it's demise during re-entry in the early 00's....
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Apr 29 21:57:46 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:57:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
	<957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>

On 4/29/2010 3:23 PM, Kevin Freels wrote:

> Columbia
> meet's it's demise during re-entry in the early 00's....

Surely you meant to type "Columbia meet's it's demi'se"...   ')


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 12:02:23 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 21:32:23 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Tim Minchin's song about the Pope
Message-ID: <n2h710b78fc1004300502y3b839fffy493c7ed67c1ccdce@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHRDfut2Vx0&feature=player_embedded

Very very rude, NSFC (Not Safe For Catholics), but the odd antipodean
might enjoy it.

-- 
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz


From reasonerkevin at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 30 14:35:35 2010
From: reasonerkevin at yahoo.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
	<957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <554382.66989.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




On 4/29/2010 3:23 PM, Kevin Freels wrote:

> Columbia
> meet's it's demise during re-entry in the early 00's....

Surely you meant to type "Columbia meet's it's demi'se"...   ')
_______________________________________________

Ah, Damien. I consider myself corrected. I should know better than to make such a mistake here. 
But it does cause me to consider how fantastic it is to live in a world where we can send energy across the globe through dozens of networks maintained by thousands of individuals for no other purpose than to correct one character of my spelling. :-P
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 17:57:45 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:57:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike>
Message-ID: <t2he68fc1101004301057lfe0d0cd2j2b870698a11fb203@mail.gmail.com>

So very true. The question becomes, how to make space better in the
10s, 20s and the rest of the future.

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 7:12 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> The 60s were good days for the rocket biz. ?We must be ready to recognize
> that technology isn't always forward in all fields. ?Almost all and almost
> always, but some technologies do rot on the vine. ?Plenty of our reference
> material generated in that decade is still in use today. ?Pretty soon the US
> will have no manned access to LEO, after landing guys on the moon over 4
> decades ago.
>
> Emlyn if you get a chance, try to talk one on one with some of the rocket
> guys who were in their 20s in about 1960. ?There were some things that were
> just fundamentally different back then, and better in a lot of ways for the
> space biz.
>
> spike



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Fri Apr 30 18:01:07 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:01:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
Message-ID: <201004301802.o3UI2FYN019640@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>It isn't impossible, just very difficult.  It's one of those chaos things: a
>very tiny uncartainty in the input makes an enormous uncertainty in the
>output.  In the case of an asteroid, the unknowns in the aerodynamics makes
>it durn near impossible to guess where it would land.

Could the robots that are building the stone or iron shells for the
rare metals install a device that will survive re-entry and can
pinpoint the impact site?

I'm deliberately vague about device. I don't care whether it's
some kind of radio transmitter, a reflective surface or paint
with a pattern that can be located by image processing....
And I don't care if it's built on-site or brought up with the
robots.

The key is the concept: Rather than worrying about predicting
where it will land, why not try to make it easy to find once it has?

(BTW, I'm back to reading and posting. Hi, y'all.)


-- David.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Apr 30 18:15:42 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <201004301802.o3UI2FYN019640@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <839684.82013.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 4/30/10, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> The key is the concept: Rather than worrying about
> predicting
> where it will land, why not try to make it easy to find
> once it has?

Because landing it anywhere near a populated area will
get you tossed in jail, possibly for life, and/or
executed, and will set public opinion strongly against
asteroid mining for decades.  (See what happened with
nuclear power for a tamer example.)  It would have the
exact opposite long-term effect of what we are trying
to accomplish.  Even seriously risking it would start
down this path, and might get the law to shut down
your operation before you can get the asteroid
anywhere near Earth.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 30 19:11:38 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:11:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <554382.66989.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>	<957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>
	<554382.66989.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BDB2B6A.4050504@satx.rr.com>

On 4/30/2010 9:35 AM, Kevin Freels wrote:

> I should know better than to
> make such a mistake here.
> But it does cause me to consider how fantastic it is to live in a world
> where we can send energy across the globe through dozens of networks
> maintained by thousands of individuals for no other purpose than to
> correct one character of my spelling. :-P

Well, as someone once commented in a similar context:

"I don't get why people of at least average intelligence cannot grasp 
3rd or 4th grade grammar. And they're often _so defensive_ (as well they 
should be, I guess - but why not learn a few simple rules, instead?)."

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 19:42:15 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:42:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <4BDB2B6A.4050504@satx.rr.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
	<957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>
	<554382.66989.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDB2B6A.4050504@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <x2see50357e1004301242o68e8455aqf290d73de32df50c@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/30/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
>  Well, as someone once commented in a similar context:
>
>  "I don't get why people of at least average intelligence cannot grasp 3rd
> or 4th grade grammar. And they're often _so defensive_ (as well they should
> be, I guess - but why not learn a few simple rules, instead?)."
>
>


What Damien means is:

wel, as sum1 1s comentd n a alike contxt:

"I dnt gt Y ppl of @ lEst avg intell cnot grasp 3rd o 4th grade gramA.
n they're ofn _so defensive_ (as wel dey shd B, I gueS - bt Y not lern
a few simpl rulz, insted?)."



BillK  ;)


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Fri Apr 30 23:06:45 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:06:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <839684.82013.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201004301802.o3UI2FYN019640@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<839684.82013.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201004302307.o3UN7sYr011534@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Adrian wrote:

>Because landing it anywhere near a populated area will
>get you tossed in jail, possibly for life, and/or
>executed, and will set public opinion strongly against
>asteroid mining for decades.  (See what happened with
>nuclear power for a tamer example.)  It would have the
>exact opposite long-term effect of what we are trying
>to accomplish.  Even seriously risking it would start
>down this path, and might get the law to shut down
>your operation before you can get the asteroid
>anywhere near Earth.

So why not a hybrid solution -- use the techniques discussed
earlier in the thread to get it into an empty region (northern
Canada, Gobi Desert, etc.) and then the approach I suggested
to pinpoint it?


-- David.



From reasonerkevin at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 30 23:28:45 2010
From: reasonerkevin at yahoo.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:28:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <4BDB2B6A.4050504@satx.rr.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
	<957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>
	<554382.66989.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDB2B6A.4050504@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <924394.24914.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>






________________________________
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 2:11:38 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan

On 4/30/2010 9:35 AM, Kevin Freels wrote:

> I should know better than to
> make such a mistake here.
> But it does cause me to consider how fantastic it is to live in a world
> where we can send energy across the globe through dozens of networks
> maintained by thousands of individuals for no other purpose than to
> correct one character of my spelling. :-P

Well, as someone once commented in a similar context:

"I don't get why people of at least average intelligence cannot grasp 3rd or 4th grade grammar. And they're often _so defensive_ (as well they should be, I guess - but why not learn a few simple rules, instead?)."

Damien Broderick
_______________________________________________

Wow. I didn't see all those apostrophes on my Treo, but it sure is ugly on my notebook screen!  I know I didn't put them all there myself. I certainly wouldn't intentionally type "meet's". Just seeing it gives me flashbacks of a guy I used to work with that always said mines when he meant mine. The auto-fill could explain the "it's" but not the rest. Sadly, I have no explanation or excuse.
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Apr 30 23:37:08 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 18:37:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] apostrophes from hell
In-Reply-To: <924394.24914.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>	<957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>	<554382.66989.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4BDB2B6A.4050504@satx.rr.com>
	<924394.24914.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BDB69A4.3070505@satx.rr.com>

On 4/30/2010 6:28 PM, Kevin Freels wrote:

> Wow. I didn't see all those apostrophes on my Treo, but it sure is ugly
> on my notebook screen! I know I didn't put them all there myself. I
> certainly wouldn't intentionally type "meet's". Just seeing it gives me
> flashbacks of a guy I used to work with that always said mines when he
> meant mine. The auto-fill could explain the "it's" but not the rest.

Damnable machines. Just be grateful nobody uploaded your head into one...

Damien Broderick


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Apr 30 23:45:20 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:45:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] apostrophes from hell
In-Reply-To: <4BDB69A4.3070505@satx.rr.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD931EC.9000802@satx.rr.com>
	<957823.97152.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDA00DA.6010207@satx.rr.com>
	<554382.66989.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDB2B6A.4050504@satx.rr.com>
	<924394.24914.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BDB69A4.3070505@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20100430194520.mxs30xllwgkk8gc8@webmail.natasha.cc>

LOL!!


Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:

> On 4/30/2010 6:28 PM, Kevin Freels wrote:
>
>> Wow. I didn't see all those apostrophes on my Treo, but it sure is ugly
>> on my notebook screen! I know I didn't put them all there myself. I
>> certainly wouldn't intentionally type "meet's". Just seeing it gives me
>> flashbacks of a guy I used to work with that always said mines when he
>> meant mine. The auto-fill could explain the "it's" but not the rest.
>
> Damnable machines. Just be grateful nobody uploaded your head into one...
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat