From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  1 01:22:24 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:22:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>
	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>

Stuart, and so was this simply a first step toward rejuvenating
normally aged mice?  And do you think within 10-15 years we could be
at the point where humans are being restored, despite the major
differences between humans and mice?

John

On 11/30/10, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 5:22:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse aging
>>
>> My understanding is that to do the same in humans (much easier said
>> than done) would make the test subjects very vulnerable to cancers.
>> But some researchers actually contend that is not true.
>>
>> And how many years do you think we are away from a *successful*
>> treatment being developed?? I say this because at least in theory, if
>> this is perfected, we have firmly landed our feet on the launching pad
>> of longevity escape velocity!? : )
>>
>> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=telomerase-reverses-aging
>
> Aside from valid cancer concerns, I would like to?stress that the scientists
> in
> the Nature paper did not reverse normal aging in mice. Instead what they did
> was?first cause premature aging in mice by taking away telomerase. Then they
> reversed the premature aging that they caused?by putting?telomerase back.
> Therefore they would not, for example, qualify for the Methuselah Mouse
> Prize.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Dec  1 01:29:17 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:29:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I wrote:

>Probably this:
>
><http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/11/29/cassini-probe-detects-a-wispy-oxygen-atmosphere-on-saturns-moon-rhea/>

Update: Not this. That was in the 26 Nov issue of Science. The press
conference is about an embargoed story in the 3 Dec issue.


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec  1 01:43:01 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:43:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>

On 11/30/2010 7:22 PM, John Grigg wrote:

> Stuart, and so was this simply a first step toward rejuvenating
> normally aged mice?

I don't see any obvious reason why this should follow. As I commented on 
a biogerontology list when a few people were getting prematurely excited 
(IMO) by this report:

On the face of it, this sounds like an incredibly silly "discovery". 
Build a car without wheels. You can't drive it anywhere. Put the wheels 
on. Look! A miracle! Now you can drive it! Ship a crew of old sea dogs 
from England to Australia without any vitamin C in their diet. They get 
scurvy and start to die. Feed them some citrus and they all recover. A 
miracle! Lemons will make you young again!

In addition, mice normally have unusually long telomeres, longer than 
ours, and die after 3 years or so. I'm not sure why added telomerase 
would help little mousies, unless they'd started life as mutant cripples.

Damien Broderick


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  1 01:52:46 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:52:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>
	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik6Abw3-t2B7hpeMnU9gq8edkMi3h5HWSh74jP0@mail.gmail.com>

Damn it, Damien!  I wanted to be reassured that before 2025 people
would be inexpensively rejuvenated due to the end results of this
research, and also that by 2035 the Singularity would be happening, at
the hands of an AGI even friendlier than David Pearce!!!

You really know how to rain on my parade...  LOL

What other bad news do you have for me???

John  ; )  : (

On 11/30/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 11/30/2010 7:22 PM, John Grigg wrote:
>
>> Stuart, and so was this simply a first step toward rejuvenating
>> normally aged mice?
>
> I don't see any obvious reason why this should follow. As I commented on
> a biogerontology list when a few people were getting prematurely excited
> (IMO) by this report:
>
> On the face of it, this sounds like an incredibly silly "discovery".
> Build a car without wheels. You can't drive it anywhere. Put the wheels
> on. Look! A miracle! Now you can drive it! Ship a crew of old sea dogs
> from England to Australia without any vitamin C in their diet. They get
> scurvy and start to die. Feed them some citrus and they all recover. A
> miracle! Lemons will make you young again!
>
> In addition, mice normally have unusually long telomeres, longer than
> ours, and die after 3 years or so. I'm not sure why added telomerase
> would help little mousies, unless they'd started life as mutant cripples.
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Dec  1 03:38:16 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:08:16 +1030
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>
	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=fm3mrRiuLycw5AML=iZDyQTZ3Z-p5_i40ZM4P@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 December 2010 12:13, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 11/30/2010 7:22 PM, John Grigg wrote:
>
>> Stuart, and so was this simply a first step toward rejuvenating
>> normally aged mice?
>
> I don't see any obvious reason why this should follow. As I commented on a
> biogerontology list when a few people were getting prematurely excited (IMO)
> by this report:
>
> On the face of it, this sounds like an incredibly silly "discovery". Build a
> car without wheels. You can't drive it anywhere. Put the wheels on. Look! A
> miracle! Now you can drive it! Ship a crew of old sea dogs from England to
> Australia without any vitamin C in their diet. They get scurvy and start to
> die. Feed them some citrus and they all recover. A miracle! Lemons will make
> you young again!

I thought the interesting thing here was that a big complex organism
would essentially repair itself just by switching on telomerase, where
the shortened telomeres were the problem. Is there previous research
actually showing this happen (as opposed to in-vitro experiments, or
extrapolations from theory)?

-- 
Emlyn

http://my.syyn.cc - A service for syncing buzz and facebook, posts,
comments and all.
http://www.blahblahbleh.com - A simple youtube radio that I built
http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  1 09:43:47 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:43:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>
	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <755968.97958.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


----- Original Message ----
> From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 5:22:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse aging
> 
> Stuart, and so was this simply a first step toward rejuvenating
> normally aged mice??

Not really although the study is not entirely without merit with regard to 
rejuvenation. There are problems with this approach. First of all, these mice 
were genetically engineered from before birth to not make any telomerase unless 
they were given hydroxytestosterone. So their telomerase gene?was able to be 
switched on or off like a chemical switch.?Therefore what you are really 
asking?is whether reversing abnormal aging in engineered mice has any relevance 
to reversing?normal aging in normal mice. The answer is some but not much. Let 
me explain.

Telomeres are the DNA at the tips of linear chromosomes. They exist specifically 
as a buffer of "extra" DNA because each time a?linear chromosome replicates, it 
gets a little shorter. This is because the enzyme?that?copies DNA, called DNA 
polymerase, can only?move in one direction and can only copy the DNA in front of 
it and not behind it.?This is called?"the end replication problem" and?it 
suffered by all organisms except for bacteria whose circular chromosomes make 
them immune because circles do not have ends.

Now for some time a leading theory of aging has been?that the gradual 
accumulation of DNA damage causes aging much like gradual accumulation of errors 
on your hard drive might lead to your operating system files becoming 
corrupt.?There are several types of DNA damage that can happen and the body has 
evolved a series of defenses against said damage.?One of the worst types of DNA 
damage are double-stranded breaks in the DNA. They are exceptionally bad because 
normally?repair enzymes use the undamaged strand to act as a template for?repair 
of the damaged strand such that each strand acts as a backup copy of the other.

When both?strands are broken however, which can happen when you are exposed to 
x-rays and other ionizing radiation for example, the repair enzymes mate the 
broken ends together the best they can with random nucleotides. If the double 
stranded break happens inside of a coded gene, that gene is?now either useless 
gibberish or a dangerous mutation. Because of this the cell responds to double 
stranded breaks in its DNA by shutting off the cells ability to replicate 
itself.

So what does all this have to do with telomeres and aging? Well if you are 
particularly astute, you may ask how the cell can distinguish between the ends 
of its own chromosomes and double-stranded breaks in its DNA? The answer is that 
telomeres, by virtue of their DNA sequence, bind?special protein complexes that 
enable them to fold over themselves such that they bury?their exposed ends 
inside a structure called the telomeric loop in a process called capping. Now 
because the telomeric loop is a literal loop of DNA, the structure cannot form 
unless the telomeres are long enough to?have enough slack to allow the structure 
to form. This means that if the telomeres are too short then the telomeric loop 
cannot form and the cell is *unable* to distinguish between the ends of its own 
chromosomes and a double-stranded break in its DNA. So it?reponds?to both the 
same way by shutting down the cell's ability to replicate itself. This is?called 
cellular senescence.

Cellular senescence is thought to contribute to aging by preventing the body 
from?replacing cells when they die or wear out. But when a damaged cell manages 
to bypass cellular sensecence and tries to replicate itself despite being 
damaged, the?cell will activate another program to try and commit cellular 
suicide?called apoptosis. If apoptosis doesn't work, the cell is now a full 
blown turmor. So the cold hard truth about aging is that we are stuck between a 
rock and a hard place. In a certain sense, we get old in order to prevent cancer 
and if we get cancer, we don't survive long enough to get old.

So where is the silver lining to the Nature study? It is that it?fully supports 
the theory that DNA damage leads to?aging and that repairing that damage does 
not just halt the aging process but actually reverses it. The caveat is that?you 
can't just repair the telomeres, you have to repair *all* of it, otherwise?you 
get?an immortal?horde of?rogue replicating cells known as cancer.??


> And do you think within 10-15 years we could be
> at the point where humans are being restored, despite the major
> differences between humans and mice?

Not with the way the system is currently set up. If someone figured out how to 
reverse the aging process while dodging cancer today, it would take at least 
that long just to get FDA approval.


      



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  1 09:53:13 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:53:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>
	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <945207.89291.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 5:43:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse aging
> 
> On 11/30/2010 7:22 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> 
> > Stuart, and so was this simply a first step toward rejuvenating
> > normally aged mice?
> 
> I don't see any obvious reason why this should follow. As I commented on a 
>biogerontology list when a few people were getting prematurely excited (IMO) by 
>this report:
> 
> On the face of it, this sounds like an incredibly silly "discovery". Build a 
>car without wheels. You can't drive it anywhere. Put the wheels on. Look! A 
>miracle! Now you can drive it! Ship a crew of old sea dogs from England to 
>Australia without any vitamin C in their diet. They get scurvy and start to die. 
>Feed them some citrus and they all recover. A miracle! Lemons will make you 
>young again!
> 
> In addition, mice normally have unusually long telomeres, longer than ours, and 
>die after 3 years or so. I'm not sure why added telomerase would help little 
>mousies, unless they'd started life as mutant cripples.

It wouldn't. Mice evolved to be disposable, living fast and breeding 
prodigously. But keep their telomeres long enough to cap *and* repair the rest 
of their DNA *and* keep their mitochondria functioning *and* guard them against 
predators and infections and you might just get an immortal mouse.

Stuart LaForge 

"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower 



      


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  1 09:56:59 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:56:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=fm3mrRiuLycw5AML=iZDyQTZ3Z-p5_i40ZM4P@mail.gmail.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>
	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CF5A825.7010000@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=fm3mrRiuLycw5AML=iZDyQTZ3Z-p5_i40ZM4P@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <892790.5708.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
> From: Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tue, November 30, 2010 7:38:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse aging
> 
> On 1 December 2010 12:13, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > On 11/30/2010 7:22 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> >
> >> Stuart, and so was this simply a first step toward rejuvenating
> >> normally aged mice?
> >
> > I don't see any obvious reason why this should follow. As I commented on a
> > biogerontology list when a few people were getting prematurely excited (IMO)
> > by this report:
> >
> > On the face of it, this sounds like an incredibly silly "discovery". Build a
> > car without wheels. You can't drive it anywhere. Put the wheels on. Look! A
> > miracle! Now you can drive it! Ship a crew of old sea dogs from England to
> > Australia without any vitamin C in their diet. They get scurvy and start to
> > die. Feed them some citrus and they all recover. A miracle! Lemons will make
> > you young again!
> 
> I thought the interesting thing here was that a big complex organism
> would essentially repair itself just by switching on telomerase, where
> the shortened telomeres were the problem. Is there previous research
> actually showing this happen (as opposed to in-vitro experiments, or
> extrapolations from theory)?

Not to my knowledge. Which is why, aside from the tremendous labor involved in 
installing a controllable genetic switch into a lineage of mice, it deserved to 
be in Nature.



      


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  1 13:17:38 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 05:17:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <mailman.31.1291198186.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <205204.67641.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
> Let me explain.
> 

<Snip a very good explanation>

Interestingly, Aubrey de Grey's SENS includes a scheme for totally eliminating all cancers, by taking the opposite approach:  Get rid of telomerase and all other means of lengthening telomeres.  Of course, that brings its own problems, but it stops cancer dead in its tracks.

Ben Zaiboc


      



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Dec  1 17:26:33 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:26:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <755968.97958.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
	<AANLkTikNxxAEv-Nhrc1js=KncqTyNnidubO6QROX_9Wz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikOLCrbRSVzort8aqQjabPaHSL4=3kHOn_gbOj0@mail.gmail.com>
	<110530.75483.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=5gL_qxjETRqyyk2fdHyMHkX16MsDCKsC9YEgk@mail.gmail.com>
	<755968.97958.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimfSLeTh553Diig8vPazr_vZkGudXrBt8JKAVyt@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:43 AM, The Avantguardian <
avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> This means that if the telomeres are too short then the telomeric loop
> cannot form and the cell is *unable* to distinguish between the ends of its
> own
> chromosomes and a double-stranded break in its DNA. So it reponds to both
> the
> same way by shutting down the cell's ability to replicate itself. This
> is called
> cellular senescence.
>
> Cellular senescence is thought to contribute to aging by preventing the
> body
> from replacing cells when they die or wear out. But when a damaged cell
> manages
> to bypass cellular sensecence and tries to replicate itself despite being
> damaged, the cell will activate another program to try and commit cellular
> suicide called apoptosis. If apoptosis doesn't work, the cell is now a full
> blown turmor. So the cold hard truth about aging is that we are stuck
> between a
> rock and a hard place. In a certain sense, we get old in order to prevent
> cancer
> and if we get cancer, we don't survive long enough to get old.
>

What if you extended the telomeres, such that the only way senescence would
set in is via damage leading to cancer?  Maybe add in a very slow telomere
extending enzyme, that replaces telomeres fast enough for normal cell
division (to
replace worn out cells) but can't keep up - or even goes into reverse - if
very rapid
cell division is encountered (such as in cancer).  Might that work?
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec  1 21:29:04 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:29:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] commie spacecraft landing
Message-ID: <000301cb919e$c76338e0$5629aaa0$@att.net>

Check this.  Cool slides showing how the commies do their space engineering.
Their system works and its immensely more cost effective than the way we do
it.  Of course the system we have (used to have) had a lot more flexibility,
and was waaay more high tech.   Unfortunately, we can't afford it anymore.

 
These photos are those of which you will never see in the US newspapers or
probably anywhere else in the USA.  A Soyuz capsule carrying Russians
Alexander Skvortsov and Mikhail Korniyenko, and NASA's Tracy Caldwell Dyson
came back to Earth September 25, 2010 from the International Space Station
and landed safely in Kazakhstan, a day after an initial attempt to return
was aborted after latches holding the Soyuz TMA-18 craft to the orbital
station failed to open.

http://cryptome.org/info/soyuz-tma18/soyuz-tma18.htm 


spike

 

 

 




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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  1 21:35:59 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:35:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
References: <175291.19133.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002701cb8fe4$ef4a71e0$cddf55a0$@att.net>
	<4a4dab57fcc08ea47620360ca68c720d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<3EDF26C2560548199BA6E6A03512F6A1@PCserafino>
	<55CE9E2C436B40B4A7C45C33809E05AB@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimf2tpzZsiyudONSKZtTvAg_1gp6SfsC_V0Oouw@mail.gmail.com>

Me, too.

Jeff Davis

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:34 AM, scerir <scerir at alice.it> wrote:
> somebody gave me the pdf of the (6 pages) paper on Nature,
> anyone interested?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From max at maxmore.com  Thu Dec  2 07:18:30 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 01:18:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Interview of Max More by Ben Goertzel
Message-ID: <201012020745.oB27jM0x023339@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Ben Goertzel Interviews Max More on the Future of Transhumanism and 
the Optimization of Disorder", Humanity+ Magazine, December 1, 2010:

http://www.hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/ben-goertzel-interviews-max-more-future-transhumanism-and-optimization-disorder

Extropes -- especially in California, I hope to see you at the 
Humanity+ conference this weekend at Caltech.

http://humanityplus.org/conferences/

Max



-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader
The Proactionary Project
Vice Chair, Humanity+
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  2 15:02:10 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 07:02:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] commie spacecraft landing
In-Reply-To: <000301cb919e$c76338e0$5629aaa0$@att.net>
References: <000301cb919e$c76338e0$5629aaa0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <384074.45634.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Your comment about high-tech and high-priced makes me think of the joke about 
the pen that writes in space. I don't know if it's merely an urban legend, but 
it goes like this: NASA spent millions to develop a pen that writes in space 
while the Soviet space agency opted to use pencils. (Of course, ignorant people 
might chalk this up to the command economy working better than free markets. 
They are ignorant because NASA is not the free market in action. It's definitely 
command economy -- just command economy with a much bigger budget -- hence more 
waste and more Kafkaesque developments.)

Regards,

Dan


From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 4:29:04 PM
Subject: [ExI] commie spacecraft landing


Check this.? Cool slides showing how the commies do their space engineering.? 
Their system works and its immensely more cost effective than the way we do it.? 
Of course the system we have (used to have) had a lot more flexibility, and was 
waaay more high tech.?? Unfortunately, we can?t afford it anymore.
?
These photos are those of which you will never see in the US newspapers or 
probably anywhere else in the USA.? A Soyuz capsule carrying Russians Alexander 
Skvortsov and Mikhail Korniyenko, and NASA's Tracy Caldwell Dyson came back to 
Earth September 25, 2010 from the International Space Station and landed safely 
in Kazakhstan, a day after an initial attempt to return was aborted after 
latches holding the Soyuz TMA-18 craft to the orbital station failed to open.

http://cryptome.org/info/soyuz-tma18/soyuz-tma18.htm 

spike?


      
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Dec  2 16:15:16 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 11:15:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] commie spacecraft landing
In-Reply-To: <384074.45634.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <000301cb919e$c76338e0$5629aaa0$@att.net>
	<384074.45634.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinmqiSCFdKnMm6o1n1_pW6aCAtdruJxFsERhp34@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/2 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>

> Your comment about high-tech and high-priced makes me think of the joke
> about the pen that writes in space. I don't know if it's merely an urban
> legend,
>

It is:

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec  2 16:19:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:19:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] commie spacecraft landing
In-Reply-To: <384074.45634.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <000301cb919e$c76338e0$5629aaa0$@att.net>
	<384074.45634.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003001cb923c$b7d47bc0$277d7340$@att.net>

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 7:02 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] commie spacecraft landing

 

Your comment about high-tech and high-priced makes me think of the joke about the pen that writes in space. I don't know if it's merely an urban legend, but it goes like this: NASA spent millions to develop a pen that writes in space while the Soviet space agency opted to use pencils. (Of course, ignorant people might chalk this up to the command economy working better than free markets. They are ignorant because NASA is not the free market in action. It's definitely command economy -- just command economy with a much bigger budget -- hence more waste and more Kafkaesque developments.)

 

Regards,

 

Dan

 

Dan, it was a mixture of urban legend and market-speak.  One of the pen companies did in fact have a pen called a power point, which worked upside down so you could write over your head.  They claimed they developed it for NASA to work in weightlessness.  Like everyone else who had one in 1970, I never did figure out why anyone needs to write upside down or over one?s head.  But we had them and they were high tech!  Perhaps the US government?s tax revenue for all those pens would eventually cover the contract they let for the development effort.  Your tax dollars at play. 

 

Regarding using pencils in space, I can easily imagine the commies doing it, but I can think of a coupla good reasons why it would be better to not do that.  Graphite would splinter off and float around until inhaled by the proles onboard, perhaps causing some new space disease twenty years hence.  Also the powdery conductive graphite floating about would introduce risk of short circuiting electronic gear.  We have cleanroom markers that are actually more similar to waxy hard crayons that would be better. Now of course we would just use keyboards.

 

The clear message was that the commies are willing to accept waaay more risk that NASA ever was, and consequently they did their thing at a small fraction of the cost.  Even more illustrative is how the Chinese do their space launches.  We launch rockets way far out by itself on an island like Cape Canaveral or Vandenberg, and launch out over water.  The Chinese have their launch facilities inland, with a city evolving in a ring around it with a radius of a leisurely bicycle ride.  They never did own up to the number of proles slain in the 14 February 1996 Long March crash.  Watch the video.  The official number of proles was 6, but I know someone who was there, who claimed it was at least in the hundreds, perhaps thousands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGoU1GgkrKg

 

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9603/china_rocket/

 

On the other hand, everyone I knew who worked in the space program at Cape Canaveral had to drive an hour to get to work, which presents cumulative risk to the proles one would suppose, so that should be counted somehow.  I would estimate the death toll at perhaps 20 in driving accidents between Cape Canaveral and Titusville, most of these as a result of hitting a wild boar or alligator on NASA causeway, which passes through an enormous wildlife refuge.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From scerir at alice.it  Thu Dec  2 17:17:29 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:17:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com><201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>

From: "David Lubkin"
> Update: Not this. That was in the 26 Nov issue of Science. The press
> conference is about an embargoed story in the 3 Dec issue.

http://www.creditcardoutlaw.com/my-blog/2010/12/is-nasa-really-going-to-unveil-alien-life-forms-tomorrow.html 




From scerir at alice.it  Thu Dec  2 17:24:16 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:24:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com><201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com><201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <7858A4379C3245DA84F4CB7D325FE63D@PCserafino>

> http://www.creditcardoutlaw.com/my-blog/2010/12/is-nasa-really-going-to-unveil-alien-life-forms-tomorrow.html

http://tinyurl.com/34dvdul




From timhalterman at gmail.com  Thu Dec  2 17:37:29 2010
From: timhalterman at gmail.com (Tim Halterman)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 11:37:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <7858A4379C3245DA84F4CB7D325FE63D@PCserafino>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
	<7858A4379C3245DA84F4CB7D325FE63D@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikcaYqVmwX+J-LAN6sh2CMVgwx27FPXDs4vhFSR@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/eureka/article7040864.ece

Article from March of this year discussing in more detail the research being
done at Mono Lake, mentioned results likely published at the end of the year
(2010).
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From ablainey at aol.com  Thu Dec  2 20:03:49 2010
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 15:03:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com><201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com><201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>

Complete anticlimax. No invasion, No flesh eating acid for blood monsters, Not even an exomicrobe found by one of our numerous planetary probes.
Still interesting, but hardly earthshattering. Just confirms long held existing theories.

 



 

-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at alice.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:17
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find


From: "David Lubkin" 
> Update: Not this. That was in the 26 Nov issue of Science. The press 
> conference is about an embargoed story in the 3 Dec issue. 
 
http://www.creditcardoutlaw.com/my-blog/2010/12/is-nasa-really-going-to-unveil-alien-life-forms-tomorrow.html  
_______________________________________________ 
extropy-chat mailing list 
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 

 
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  2 20:41:00 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 12:41:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com><201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com><201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, like so much about NASA: big hype over almost nothing.

Regards,

Dan


From: "ablainey at aol.com" <ablainey at aol.com>
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 3:03:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find

Complete anticlimax. No invasion, No flesh eating acid for blood monsters, Not 
even an exomicrobe found by one of our numerous planetary probes.
Still interesting, but hardly earthshattering. Just confirms long held existing 
theories.


-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at alice.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:17
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find

From: "David Lubkin"?
> Update: Not this. That was in the 26 Nov issue of Science. The press?
> conference is about an embargoed story in the 3 Dec issue.?
?
http://www.creditcardoutlaw.com/my-blog/2010/12/is-nasa-really-going-to-unveil-alien-life-forms-tomorrow.html
 ?
_______________________________________________?
extropy-chat mailing list?
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org?
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


      
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Dec  2 22:25:56 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:25:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>

The most anticlimactic aspect is that the bacteria are not a separate
highly divergent clade like Archaea but rather members of our own tree
of life that adapted to opportunistically incorporate arsenic in their
DNA. Archaea may have originated DNA separately from Eubacteria, thus
implying that the development of simple forms of life may consist of
distinct phases, each of which could be relatively likely to occur
sequentially, rather than requiring a single complicated origination
event. Archaea have thus implications for the Fermi paradox. GFAJ-1 do
not point to a separate origination event on Earth and thus have
limited importance for astrobiology, aside from supporting the idea
that life could be based on various combinations of elements - and
this is not that important for discussions of e.g. likely filters on
our way to sustained space colonization.

Rafal

2010/12/2 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> Yes, like so much about NASA: big hype over almost nothing.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> From: "ablainey at aol.com" <ablainey at aol.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 3:03:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
>
> Complete anticlimax. No invasion, No flesh eating acid for blood monsters,
> Not even an exomicrobe found by one of our numerous planetary probes.
> Still interesting, but hardly earthshattering. Just confirms long held
> existing theories.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scerir <scerir at alice.it>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 17:17
> Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
> From: "David Lubkin"
>> Update: Not this. That was in the 26 Nov issue of Science. The press
>> conference is about an embargoed story in the 3 Dec issue.
>
> http://www.creditcardoutlaw.com/my-blog/2010/12/is-nasa-really-going-to-unveil-alien-life-forms-tomorrow.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Chief Clinical Officer,
Gencia Corporation
706 B Forest St.

Charlottesville, VA 22903

tel: (434) 295-4800

fax: (434) 295-4951



This electronic message transmission contains information from the
biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or
privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the
individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have
received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by
telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail
(fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately.


From max at maxmore.com  Fri Dec  3 02:43:58 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:43:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Robotic 'pants' let paralyzed people walk
Message-ID: <201012030244.oB32i7fF013944@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40483447/ns/health-health_care/



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec  3 02:42:09 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 18:42:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find

The most anticlimactic aspect is that the bacteria are not a separate highly
divergent clade like Archaea but rather members of our own tree of life that
adapted to opportunistically incorporate arsenic in their DNA...Rafal

2010/12/2 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> Yes, like so much about NASA: big hype over almost nothing.
>
> Dan
> From: "ablainey at aol.com" <ablainey at aol.com>
> ...
> Complete anticlimax...


I am surprised by the disappointment expressed by several posters.  This was
a hellll of a find.  I wouldn't expect anything to incorporate arsenic into
the tissues.  This opens up possibilities for the panspermia notion, as well
as causing me personally to increase my own estimate of the number of star
systems that support life.

spike









From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Fri Dec  3 03:19:30 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 22:19:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>
	<005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201012030319.oB33JWk2015840@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>I am surprised by the disappointment expressed by several posters.  This was
>a hellll of a find.  I wouldn't expect anything to incorporate arsenic into
>the tissues.  This opens up possibilities for the panspermia notion, as well
>as causing me personally to increase my own estimate of the number of star
>systems that support life.

I'm wondering whether arsenic was happenstance or a particularly
feasible substitution. Can the critters can make other substitutes
to a higher row in the periodic table, e.g., phosphorus for nitrogen,
strontium for calcium, ruthenium for iron...?

This phenomenon also suggests that we can engineer lifeforms
for different element mixes piecewise. (For industrial use here or
seeding life elsewhere.)

And what about last week's find that Rhea has an oxygen
atmosphere? Which raises the prospect that there are loads of
gas giants in the galaxy with similar lunar possibilities for life.


-- David.



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Dec  3 04:21:55 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 23:21:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>
	<005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikNOfPviEXE9iGa+rH8hDqEoTREGJ_z6kGu0x+v@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 9:42 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

?This opens up possibilities for the panspermia notion,

### How so? Remember, these are garden-variety gamma-proteobacteria,
not anything that fell from the sky, unless you already believe that
all life on Earth did.

as well
> as causing me personally to increase my own estimate of the number of star
> systems that support life.

### Trivially, yes, in the sense that our estimate of the probability
that worlds with unusually high metallicity (and therefore high levels
of arsenic) could harbor DNA and protein-based life should now be
higher - but we have no reasons to believe that high metallicity is a
significant issue on most otherwise habitable planets. Personally, I
never thought that metallicity is a problem anyway - the only reason
why metals are poisonous to most terrestrial life is not their
intrinsic badness but rather rarity - and rare chemicals are more
likely to be problematic when encountered, since normally there is no
pressure to evolve good uses for them.

For me a more astrobiologically significant finding was the discovery
of gamma-ray eating molds inside the Chernobyl sarcophagus. If an
eukaryote can develop the ability to feed on gamma rays after a few
years inside a little piece of Hell, then a hundred million years in
that place could perhaps yield some very, very tough creatures,
capable of breezing through millions of years of space travel. Of
course, the Ruskis still aren't good at propaganda, so the black mold
of Chernobyl hardly made headlines.

Rafal



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec  3 06:16:21 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 22:16:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikNOfPviEXE9iGa+rH8hDqEoTREGJ_z6kGu0x+v@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>	<005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikNOfPviEXE9iGa+rH8hDqEoTREGJ_z6kGu0x+v@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901cb92b1$9befc5c0$d3cf5140$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki [mailto:rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 8:22 PM
To: spike
Cc: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 9:42 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>?This opens up possibilities for the panspermia notion...

### How so? Remember, these are garden-variety gamma-proteobacteria, not
anything that fell from the sky, unless you already believe that all life on
Earth did...


Actually what I meant was I find it very exciting to discover any lifeform
based on any alternate chemistry besides those so familiar to us.  This is
equal to that finding a few years ago of those bugs hanging around the
thermal vents at the bottom of the sea, making their living decomposing
sulfur compounds.  It reinforces in my mind the panspermia notions if we
find more lifeforms based on alternate chemistries in general.


>as well as causing me personally to increase my own estimate of the number
of star systems that support life.

### Trivially, yes, in the sense that our estimate of the probability that
worlds with unusually high metallicity (and therefore high levels of
arsenic) could harbor DNA and protein-based life should now be higher - but
we have no reasons to believe that high metallicity is a significant issue
on most otherwise habitable planets...

Ja.  But having more pathways to life is better than fewer, always.  This
one is cool in that a tech application immediately comes to mind, removing
arsenic from drinking water.  I lived for five years just south of Mono Lake
where these things were found.  Low level arsenic toxicity was thought to be
the cause of many ills there.  We knew there was always low but measurable
arsenic in the drinking water.  When the winds would come howling down from
the north, the dust clouds were known to contain arsenides and arsenates.

###For me a more astrobiologically significant finding was the discovery of
gamma-ray eating molds inside the Chernobyl sarcophagus...Rafal

 I hadn't heard of that, but it is exciting indeed.  This suggests a
lifeform that evolved on site, since nature would perhaps supply
insufficient gamma rays on the surface to support many of these kinds of
beasts.  The commies should have published more on it.  2 December 2010,
this is a good day indeed.  I learn of a lifeform apparently at least
partially substituting arsenic(!) for phosphorus, and on the same day I
learn of commie molds that make their living converting gamma rays.  How
cool is that?  {8-]

spike








From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  3 11:12:14 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 04:12:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Tom Horn on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLJ3W6+4ZtrGcCUD1wj9r-RrU5S5cV3FRV8=-S@mail.gmail.com>

Tom Horn was the primary guest on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory
(a show that covers everything from the paranormal to cutting edge
science, and has a listenership in the many millions).

I had thought Tom Horn was more of a New Ager, but in fact he is a
devout Evangelical of the Hal Lindsey/John Ankerberg bent.  On his own
show he tends to be fairly low-key and actually sort of reminds me of
a more laidback version of Jimmy Swaggart, but while on the Coast to
Coast radio show he spoke a mile a minute to try to get out everything
he wanted to say! lol  And the host, George Noory, generally let him
do it.

These were some of his key points...

-Within ten years super-soldiers will exist!
-We are engaged in a biological/cybernetic arms race.
-Human/machine interfaces being perfected.
-The Jason Group- the U.S. must stay ahead of global competitors, no
matter what.
-Nick Bostrom and Dr. Hughes were briefly mentioned.
-Kurzweil's Singularity was very briefly explained.
-Hugo de Garis and his nightmarish artilect war brought up several times.
-Sophia Project at ASU to contact supernatural creatures (I had never
heard of this!!).
-Terrance McKenna- we will re-engineer the brain so we can communicate
with beings from other dimensions.  Demons?
-Genetically engineered humans could turn into a rebel force to overthrow us.

I noticed that he would take a convergence technology that is probably
20-30 years away (or more) and act like it's right around the corner!
But then some transhumanists have that same tendency... lol

Horn spoke very fast and excitedly, and it was like he had imbibed
several large energy drinks right before he got started speaking!  The
man is a walking tabloid headline the way he grabs onto some online
article and then goes bonkers over it!  Hal lindsey and John Ankerberg
are actually more articulate than he is, at least when under the
pressure of being on a major talk radio show.

He mentioned James Hughes being on his program, and seemed to have a
fondness for the man.  Tom Horn claims to be a "friendly nemesis" to
the transhumanist community, and seemed pleased as punch that
transhumanists would dialogue with him (of course it helps him to sell
books and promote himself).

Horn said transhumans are splintered in their views and philosophies,
and some even think this astounding technological progress will lead
to humanity being wiped out.  He credited transhumanist thinkers with
being able to clearly look at both the good and horrifically bad
scenarios regarding these coming technologies and their possible
effect on humanity.  Horn mentioned Greg Stock and how he pushes for
the upgrading of humanity via germline engineering, while Ray Kurzweil
sees artificial intelligence as the solution.

I don't think Horn grokked that there is quite a bit of overlap and it
is not always either/or when it comes to these things.  He kept on
saying the future is coming fast and it will revolutionize mankind!  I
think he has found his tagline...  I was amazed when he brought up
teleportation experiments, and yet *did not* say that it's human
transport success was right around the corner!

He claimed that time travel was a Darpa project at one time, and so
were some form of telepathic hive mind troops, but the projects were
scrapped by nervous senators who took a much closer look at things,
after the Navy admiral in charge of Darpa passed away.  A decade ago
the project named, "master race super soldiers" disturbed
congressional examiners, and so now Darpa has gotten good at giving
"pleasant names" to their programs, and then burying them under layers
of protective secrecy.

As time grew short Horn stated that "transhumanism is an outgrowth of
Adolph Hitler's eugenics programs!"  This is such a great way to get
on our good side.  But then he has two different links on his website
about how Max More has mocked him and his beliefs.  He followed up by
mentioning Leon Kass saying that humanity is crossing the line between
man and God!  And of course Fukuyama's "The End of History" was
brought up, with transhumanism being the next stage.

He grew apocalyptic as he as he discussed Hugo de Garis (one of his
favorite transhumanists, due to the happily nightmarish and genocidal
wars envisioned by him) and the bedtime nightmares which plague the
scientist, where dark visions of humanity by the billions getting
slaughtered by godlike artilects, haunt his dreams.

Horn touched on his belief that in ancient times, angels spread their
DNA among humans and caused the creation of the Nephilium superhumans
that caused so much trouble in the land.  And he said that his studies
of ancient cultures indicated that they believed there would be a
great tumult as humans and gods blended together, and created a portal
to our world.  I guess he watches Stargate SG1...

GRINS was given a short overview as he gave a quickie lesson on
convergence technologies.  And then he talked about how it's very
possible that the bones of the Nephilium superhumans from Biblical
times have been found by govt. scientists, and that the new generation
of supersoldiers will be made in part by adding their DNA to the mix.
Yes, really...

The whole discussion was finished with, "I'm really not sitting at
home with a tinfoil cap on my head!" LOL  Well, I guess that's
reassuring...

http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/

Whew!!  Write-ups wear me out, but I wanted to get this to everyone,
while my memories were still fresh...

John  : )


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  3 14:38:52 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 06:38:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>
	<005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <307382.16207.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On the other hand, I would expect arsenic to be incorporated into tissues. I 
don't see anything earth-shattering about this finding. It's not like the 
central theory of biochemistry up to this point was something that utterly and 
definitively ruled out arsenic. In fact, to me, not having arsenic in the 
biochemistry of most Earth life seems more like an accident of history.

Are you being serious here too? Did you completely rule out slightly different 
biochemistries? Were you estimating the number of places life might arise or 
spread to based on estimates of how many places might have plentiful?arsenic? 
And what were your estimates? Have you now doubled the number of such places? 
Tripled them? Etc.?

To me, this is like some researcher found a life form that can survive and 
thrive is brine that's 1% more saline than the previous record holder and then 
holding off on announcing it for a big conference as if this were the equivalent 
of finding life on Mars. (Granted, all of us should have guessed that any really 
big find would be announced in short order or leaked. This sounds almost like a 
promotional stunt to justify funding or keep NASA in the news than anything 
else. I mean here the way the story was?played up?-- not the actual find.)

Regards,

Dan


From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: rafal at smigrodzki.org; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 9:42:09 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find

... On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find

The most anticlimactic aspect is that the bacteria are not a separate highly
divergent clade like Archaea but rather members of our own tree of life that
adapted to opportunistically incorporate arsenic in their DNA...Rafal

2010/12/2 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> Yes, like so much about NASA: big hype over almost nothing.
>
> Dan
> From: "ablainey at aol.com" <ablainey at aol.com>
> ...
> Complete anticlimax...

I am surprised by the disappointment expressed by several posters.? This was
a hellll of a find.? I wouldn't expect anything to incorporate arsenic into
the tissues.? This opens up possibilities for the panspermia notion, as well
as causing me personally to increase my own estimate of the number of star
systems that support life.

spike


      
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Dec  3 16:11:53 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:11:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find.
In-Reply-To: <307382.16207.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>
	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>
	<005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
	<307382.16207.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <798181AB-C327-4CED-BE07-6F7C5A04DC8D@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Dan wrote:

>  I don't see anything earth-shattering about this finding.

While not as earth-shattering as that staple of science fiction, a life form that replaces carbon with silicon, it's still a pretty big deal. Up to now every single living thing ever examined, even viruses, contained phosphorus; not only are phosphate bonds what keeps DNA and RNA from falling apart its also the key part of ATP (Adenosine triPHOSPHATE) a molecule found in all life until now, that is used to store energy. 

It's also interesting that 3 elements in the same column of the periodic table, nitrogen phosphorus and now arsenic, can be used by life; it wouldn't surprise me if somebody tried antimony next, or maybe even bismuth, because unlike arsenic or antimony, bismuth is one of the few heavy metals that is not poisonous, its the active ingredient in Pepto-Bismol.

 John K Clark           


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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Dec  3 16:25:59 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:25:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>

On Nov 30, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Darren Greer wrote:

> I'm not a physicist, but I think it's important to remember that these things seem "weird" only to those versed in at least the basic science. To someone who didn't know anything about the speed of light constant and why it can't be violated, it wouldn't seem weird at all.  Just more goofy science stuff, by guys and gals with nothing better to do with their time.

There two quotations that I like, at first they seem contradictory but may actually contain an element of complementarity about them. The first is by Niels Bohr:

"Anybody who is not shocked by Quantum Mechanics has not understood it."

The second is by Richard Feynman:

"I think its safe to say that nobody understands Quantum Mechanics."

  John K Clark

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec  3 17:27:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 09:27:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find
In-Reply-To: <307382.16207.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201011301334.oAUDY5YC016878@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<201011302252.oAUMqImh002314@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<201012010128.oB11S9ia014606@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<20FFBEEFF9904B02A17EA5E1AACC5B6F@PCserafino>	<8CD60732B369B96-1D60-3685@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>	<353.57491.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTinvV-BBPqtwDf7HVQWnkan9679J4eMyj396+L-S@mail.gmail.com>	<005001cb9293$aed73ba0$0c85b2e0$@att.net>
	<307382.16207.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000c01cb930f$6e40bcc0$4ac23640$@att.net>

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan.
Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA tease on SETI find

 

.On the other hand, I would expect arsenic to be incorporated into tissues.
I don't see anything earth-shattering about this finding. It's not like the
central theory of biochemistry up to this point was something that utterly
and definitively ruled out arsenic. In fact, to me, not having arsenic in
the biochemistry of most Earth life seems more like an accident of history.

 

This is an interesting case because arsenic is actually so chemically
similar to phosphorus, yet it is so nearly universally toxic to life that it
often cannot even be used as a pesticide: highly effective but also too
dangerous to the personnel applying the stuff.

.

.

 

.Are you being serious here too? Did you completely rule out slightly
different biochemistries? Were you estimating the number of places life
might arise or spread to based on estimates of how many places might have
plentiful arsenic? And what were your estimates? Have you now doubled the
number of such places? Tripled them? Etc.?...

 

Not so much that I ruled out alternate life chemistries, but rather we have
too few examples of it.  When we talk about uploading, we are actually
talking about an alternate life chemistry in a sense.  Any actual example of
it is very exciting.

.

.

 

. This sounds almost like a promotional stunt to justify funding or keep
NASA in the news than anything else. I mean here the way the story was
played up -- not the actual find.)  Regards,  Dan

 

Certainly there was plenty of hype surrounding the announcement, but I can
forgive NASA for that.  I read what the NASA guy said, which wasn't that far
off base.  The popular press ran with the ball, supplying the most egregious
hype.  I can imagine the morale at NASA is extremely low, after the
retirement of the shuttle (leaving the US without a man-rated launcher), the
cancellation of Orion (leaving the US without a man-rated reentry system), a
repeated failure to explain what the space station is actually good for, and
perhaps the deepest injury,  NASA director Bolden's comment:

.

.

"When I became the NASA administrator, [Obama] charged me with three
things," NASA head Charles Bolden said ".and third, and perhaps foremost, he
wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much
more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their
historic contribution to science, math, and engineering."

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/nasa039s-new-mission-building-ties-mu
slim-world

 

Well you know, plenty of us, even hardcore lifelong space fans, read that
comment and seriously questioned whether we need NASA at all.  I don't
understand Bolden's motive for revealing that scandalous request.  I know
several hardcore space scientists, born to be space scientists, live for it,
gave it everything, earned a PhD at the sacrifice of a family life, all
space all the way.  Then they read that comment.  I can imagine the NASA
scientists feeling like they have been demoted to foreign ambassador or US
state department flunky.

 

spike



 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  4 02:42:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 18:42:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between
	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: .

 

>There two quotations that I like, at first they seem contradictory but may
actually contain an element of complementarity about them. The first is by
Niels Bohr:

 

>"Anybody who is not shocked by Quantum Mechanics has not understood it."

 

>The second is by Richard Feynman:

 

>"I think its safe to say that nobody understands Quantum Mechanics."

 

  >John K Clark

 

Pondering quantum mechanics is like a religious experience for me.  Because
every time I do it, I ask, "How in the goddam hell can this be?"

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Dec  4 04:02:53 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 05:02:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Beware of thy diet...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012040320060.25193@tau.ceti.pl>


...as it seems to prolong lives of those who promote it. But not 
necesarilly yours. Which doesn't mean your diet is unhealthy, just that it 
may be neutral or close to it.

Howdy,

I've been heroically trying to follow "diet debate", but I have some 
other, heavier things to memorize and understand. So I am a bit behind 
(well, maybe two weeks or so). Hopefully nobody will kick my head off in 
case this message is redundant :-). Please don't, I still have some use 
for it.

"How the five-a-day mantra was born"

[ 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article7095530.ece
 ]

Funny quotation, as usually:

"So, from where did the US Government get the idea for the number five, if 
not the scientific studies? I was closing in. Marion Nestle, nutrition 
professor at New York University, thinks she remembers exactly where. 

?'It was Susan Foerster, the head nutritionist in California. She had the 
bright idea of promoting fruit and vegetable consumption in a state which 
was a big fruit and vegetable producer.?' 

The American National Cancer Institute admits that ?'no studies have 
tested the impact of specific numbers of servings on cancer risk?'. But 
it says five was chosen in California in 1988, as it doubled the average 
consumption, and ?'the number five was memorable and provided a platform 
for creative message and programme delivery'. 

In America now, the five-a-day message is ?'invisible; [it has] 
completely dropped off the radar?', says Nestle. [**]

Britain, though, has taken California's 1980s marketing policy and run 
with it.?'We have to abandon this idea that there's something 
miraculous in diet,?' says Paulo Boffetta, the doctor behind last 
week's study. ?'It's not true for fruit and vegetables as a whole, 
and even less true for fruit and vegetables individually.'] 

And by the way, as everyone I spoke to emphasised, an unexpected surprise 
of all this research is the discovery that although it may not do much for 
cancer, eating fruit and vegetables is good for your heart. How many a 
day? Don't ask."

This one is quite interesting, too:

"An expert's reaction to the 5-a-day myth bust"

[ 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article7095541.ece
 ]

BTW, I am not following any particular diet at the moment. Just eating 
what (I think that) I need. And somewhat going from white bread to the 
whole-grained one. I was a bit upset that I had not been consuming wholly 
five products, but not much. Now even less than that :-). Meat - always 
a fan of it. Mineral water and black coffee for a breakfast (and something 
to eat, of course). "Real" butter (at least it smells and tastes more real 
than my previous butter-o-like bread smear, so I consider it a move in a 
right direction). Yes, I know, cholesterol - I will worry when I have too 
much of it.

If I have any kind of preference, it is avoiding "strange" chemicals. I 
dropped sweeteners, I dropped (mostly) candies with preservatives. If I 
ever need sugar, I would rather go to the kitchen and swallow a teaspoon 
of plain, white sugar (the same that goes with candies, minus chemistry). 
I think I disliked "my candies" when I learned one of preservatives used 
in them was related to liquid crystals. Now it is edible - now (or few 
years later, actually) it is not. No way. This means, no diet drinks, of 
course. Well, what good are they for, anyway, compared to, say, tea or 
mineral water? Besides, they taste nowhere close to what I loved in my 
childhood, and I'm still undecided on corn syrup. And no fast-fooding.
But then again, I don't make it into religion, so from time to time I may 
have an inclination for this, too (and some coke) - like, once a month, 
once a year or once a decade.

Now, ok, I admit that maybe my current eating habits will kill me someday. 
But, maybe not? Hopefully I will die happy, sipping brandy after a good 
dinner ;-). Or hurtling champagne down my throat, in a manner similar to 
this crazy pilot from "1941" Spielberg movie :-).

Oh great, and I only wanted to give you two links and a quotation.

[**] I wonder, how much truth is in this statement? Usians, do you really 
not get lectioned about how healthy it is to eat five-a-day? I hear it at 
least once a year and I think I would hear more of it, had I watched more 
"healthy style for dummies" TV.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec  4 05:55:43 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 23:55:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
Message-ID: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>

<http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/back_from_the_future>

"/Overall evaluation:/ Just about everything that could be done wrong in 
an experiment occurred here. And even if one chose to overlook that 
methodological mess, because of the multiple testing problem his data 
still do not support the claimed above-chance effect."


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 10:41:37 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 10:41:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
In-Reply-To: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin3q41Y_uMB-H4GPHvbvLsqNJ2=q5Q-4nksmF+v@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 5:55 AM, Damien Broderick  wrote:
> <http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/back_from_the_future>
>
> "/Overall evaluation:/ Just about everything that could be done wrong in an
> experiment occurred here. And even if one chose to overlook that
> methodological mess, because of the multiple testing problem his data still
> do not support the claimed above-chance effect."
>


Good article!  With nice historical context.

I liked the quote:
One must also keep in mind that even the best statistical evidence
cannot speak to the causes of observed statistical departures.
Statistical deviations do not favour arbitrary pet hypotheses, and
statistical evidence cited in support of psi could as easily support
other hypotheses as well. For example, if one conducted a
parapsychological experiment while praying for above-chance scoring,
statistically significant outcomes could be taken as evidence for the
power of prayer just as readily as for the existence of psi.
----------------


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 14:01:30 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 09:01:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Beware of thy diet...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012040320060.25193@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012040320060.25193@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikNEEyV2qhVHNLMw3PTix71=A8NpcaybZxdLAaJ@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/3 Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
>
> [**] I wonder, how much truth is in this statement? Usians, do you really
> not get lectioned about how healthy it is to eat five-a-day? I hear it at
> least once a year and I think I would hear more of it, had I watched more
> "healthy style for dummies" TV.

Amidst all the other marketing noise, it's hard to know if the
five-a-day is particularly strong.? The company that makes V8 has a
product that incorporates a large percentage of fruit juice to "hide"
the taste of a large amount of vegetable juice.? They're actively
promoting that their product provides 3 of your 5 servings in an easy
to drink beverage.? At the same time, the company that makes Nutella
(the imported Hazelnut chocolate spread) is advertising it as a way to
trick children into eating bread.? ... because children have a
long-standing hatred of bread?!??? They try to convince moms that it's
made with "healthy" hazelnuts and chocolate has antioxidants, so
that's good for you too, right?

No doubt if we were in public school (or involved with the care and
feeding of children) we would be seeing food guide pyramids and
5-a-day posters.? The latest food pyramid I've seen shows 5 triangular
slices of an equilateral triangle such that it is almost impossible to
visually compare the area of each slice since none of the angles are
similar and the "top" of each slice vanishes into a single point.? It
really is a terrible infographic. (http://tinyurl.com/2azlpjk)

Far more invasive are the anti-smoking efforts.? For a while it was
merely the surgeon general warning that smoking may cause cancer.
Then it was active promotion.? Now cigarette ads must contain a very
large warning that product use has ugly side effects.? For the last
2-3 years my employer has been offering smoking cessation classes for
free (paid for by our health insurance provider)? This year we are
required to contractually affirm that we do not use tobacco or live in
a house with a tobacco user - otherwise we incur a tobacco usage
surcharge on our healthcare premium.? I get it, smoking is public
enemy #1 - but i think it sets a dangerous precedent.? Soon we'll be
swearing that we don't eat fast food more than twice a month, or that
we consistently eat the government-recommended 5 servings of veg else
we must pay for our own healthcare offset.? "I'm sorry, you are either
a fan of extreme sports or a completely sedentary couch commander -
same healthcare surcharge in both cases"

But we absolutely can not be responsible for ourselves.  It's good
that the guh'mint takes such care of us.



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 14:04:02 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 09:04:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/3 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> Pondering quantum mechanics is like a religious experience for me.? Because
> every time I do it, I ask, ?How in the goddam hell can this be??

Hmm... religious experience indeed:  the unexplained, god, damnation,
hell and existence all in one sentiment.  :)



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  4 16:43:32 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 08:43:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
Non-Locality and Uncertainty.

2010/12/3 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>> Pondering quantum mechanics is like a religious experience for me.? 
>> Because every time I do it, I ask, ?How in the goddam hell can this be??

>Hmm... religious experience indeed:  the unexplained, god, damnation, hell
and existence all in one sentiment.  :)


All that religion in a single prepositional phrase!  My theological training
did not go to waste.  

{8^D

spike




 





From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  4 17:59:16 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 09:59:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between
	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>

2010/12/3 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>>> Pondering quantum mechanics is like a religious experience for me. 
>>> Because every time I do it, I ask, "How in the goddam hell can this be?"

>>Hmm... religious experience indeed:  the unexplained, god, damnation, 
>>hell and existence all in one sentiment.  :)  Mike


>All that religion in a single prepositional phrase!...spike


Writing about it reminded me of college, when I read about the standard
explanations for quantum mechanics.  Perhaps you have read them too, and
your reaction was similar to mine: no way, this must be wrong, there hasta
be a better explanation, I will find it.

Then I witnessed the double slit experiment.  I did the equations every
which way I could imagine.  They showed that photons are quantized, like
tiny particles with energy equal to h*nu, with momentum equal to h*nu/c.
Those equations are my trusted friends, they never lied to me, never let me
down ever, a scintillation detector proves it true, and time is a one way
street in my experience.  Then we see how the photons are hitting the double
slits one at a time, calculate it a hundred times, they are, no question.
But somehow each individual photon is either splitting in two and
interfering with itself, or its *spacial* other self, or it is somehow
remembering what the previous photon did, and leaving messages for the next
one, as if it is like a particle waving back and forth in time, interfering
or with its temporal other self.  Or some damn thing.  Every standard
explanation just sounds so outlandish, so very wrong, but it then the theory
actually works perfectly.  How annoying!  Quantum mechanical theory makes
accurate predictions to eight places, works waaaay better than the models we
mechanical engineering types use every day and trust explicitly, even though
they are lucky to predict within plus or minus thirty percent.

It's been 30 years now since my mind was first boggled by that astonishing
experiment, but today I am NO CLOSER to any reasonable-sounding explanation
for quantum mechanics.

spike









From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec  4 18:23:03 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 12:23:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between	Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>

On 12/4/2010 11:59 AM, spike wrote:

> somehow each individual photon is either splitting in two and
> interfering with itself, or its*spacial*  other self,

spatial? special?

> or it is somehow
> remembering what the previous photon did, and leaving messages for the next
> one, as if it is like a particle waving back and forth in time, interfering
> or with its temporal other self.

This is John Cramer's Transactional model, no?

> Or some damn thing.  Every standard
> explanation just sounds so outlandish, so very wrong, but it then the theory
> actually works perfectly.

I had this halfassed idea the other day: a Deutschean shadow-universes 
intuition that the Quantum Zeno effect might derive from superposed 
activities in adjacent, only slightly divergent M-W realities where 
intentionally directed activities reinforce or prohibit a certain 
outcome, unlike ordinary stochastic radioactivity, say, where the 
"shadow overlaps" in/from nearby worlds are arbitrary. Might this have 
an impact on big beam programs, say, perhaps delaying or inhibiting some 
otherwise possible outcomes (Higgs manifestations, e.g.)?

Damien Broderick



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 18:53:51 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 18:53:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 5:59 PM, spike  wrote:
> Then I witnessed the double slit experiment. ?I did the equations every
> which way I could imagine. ?They showed that photons are quantized, like
> tiny particles with energy equal to h*nu, with momentum equal to h*nu/c.
> Those equations are my trusted friends, they never lied to me, never let me
> down ever, a scintillation detector proves it true, and time is a one way
> street in my experience. ?Then we see how the photons are hitting the double
> slits one at a time, calculate it a hundred times, they are, no question.
> But somehow each individual photon is either splitting in two and
> interfering with itself, or its *spacial* other self, or it is somehow
> remembering what the previous photon did, and leaving messages for the next
> one, as if it is like a particle waving back and forth in time, interfering
> or with its temporal other self. ?Or some damn thing. ?Every standard
> explanation just sounds so outlandish, so very wrong, but it then the theory
> actually works perfectly. ?How annoying! ?Quantum mechanical theory makes
> accurate predictions to eight places, works waaaay better than the models we
> mechanical engineering types use every day and trust explicitly, even though
> they are lucky to predict within plus or minus thirty percent.
>
> It's been 30 years now since my mind was first boggled by that astonishing
> experiment, but today I am NO CLOSER to any reasonable-sounding explanation
> for quantum mechanics.
>
>

This article attempts a 'simple' explanation for the double slit experiment.

<http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/papers/quantum.html>

Quote:
when we don't know which slit the photons are going through, we get a
wave interference pattern. When we do know which slit each photon
traveled through, no interference pattern.!

the Copenhagen Interpretation:
So how does that theory apply to our experiment? First let's look at
the original double slit experiment. You shoot out a photon. The Y
wave travels from the photon emitter, through both slits, and back to
the wall, creating a pattern just like light would, except it's a
pattern of probability instead of light. At the back wall (with its
photo-sensitive surface) the photon is measured, which collapses the
wave function: the photon has to choose where to hit. Of course, lots
of photons choose high-probability areas, only a few choose
low-probability areas, and none of them choose zero-probability areas.
That's why we see the interference pattern.

But when we put measuring devices in the slits, we collapse the
wavefunction much earlier. We force the photon to choose which slit to
go through: one probability becomes "definitely yes" and the other
becomes "definitely no" in that instant. Thereafter, there is only one
beam, and hence no interference and no interference pattern.

The photon really, genuinely, and importantly, does not have a
specific location until we measure one. The cat really isn't alive or
dead.


BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 19:14:28 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 14:14:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:53 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> the photon has to choose where to hit

What does that mean?

-Dave


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sat Dec  4 19:17:56 2010
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 12:17:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] WikiLeaks: What is the moral transhumanist expert consensus?
Message-ID: <4CFA93E4.7000309@canonizer.com>


Moral Transhumanist Experts,

Is anyone besides me interested in knowing, quantitatively, what other 
moral transhumanists experts think aboutWikiLeaks and Julian Assange?  
How does a transhumanist consensus compare to the general population 
consensus?....

Please take this one question survey:

http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/119


Brent Allsop







From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec  4 19:28:23 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 11:28:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between	Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000701cb93e9$6af53930$40dfab90$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
Subject: Re: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
Non-Locality and Uncertainty.

On 12/4/2010 11:59 AM, spike wrote:

>> somehow each individual photon is either splitting in two and
interfering with itself, or its*spacial*  other self,

>spatial? special?

Spatial thanks.  It perhaps shoulda been spelled spacial, because it
pertains to one of the three space dimensions, as opposed to the temporal or
time dimension.  But microsloth keeps wanting to change it to special, and
perhaps it does look too much like special.  So spatial it is.  {8-]  And
shoulda shoulda been spelled should have, because that is how we say it, ja?
{8^D


>> or it is somehow remembering what the previous photon did, and leaving
messages for the  next one, as if it is like a particle waving back and
forth in time, 
>> interfering or with its temporal other self.

>This is John Cramer's Transactional model, no?

Feyman had it before Cramer, or at least a puzzling version of it.

...

>I had this halfassed idea the other day: a Deutschean shadow-universes
intuition that the Quantum Zeno effect might derive from superposed
activities in adjacent, only slightly divergent M-W realities where
intentionally directed activities reinforce or prohibit a certain outcome,
unlike ordinary stochastic radioactivity, say, where the "shadow overlaps"
in/from nearby worlds are arbitrary. Might this have an impact on big beam
programs, say, perhaps delaying or inhibiting some otherwise possible
outcomes (Higgs manifestations, e.g.)?  Damien Broderick


Hey that one works as well as any of the others I have heard.  Good show, me
lad!

spike








From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 19:48:41 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 19:48:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Dave Sill  wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:53 PM, BillK  wrote:
>> the photon has to choose where to hit
>
> What does that mean?
>
>

Read the article - it's obvious!   ;)
(It's written in simple language for beginners, that's why he used that phrase).

Oh all right, I'll try an explanation.
The photon is a probabilty wave function until it is measured (or hits
the detector plate). The measurement might hit anywhere in the wave
function. That's what he means.
(Clue - he doesn't really think photons are self aware beings).  :)


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 19:53:59 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 19:53:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] WikiLeaks: What is the moral transhumanist expert
	consensus?
In-Reply-To: <4CFA93E4.7000309@canonizer.com>
References: <4CFA93E4.7000309@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimYM3A+QW=R49VketAQ=eij4UqZ6UTdD-kWCaeD@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Brent Allsop  wrote:
>
> Moral Transhumanist Experts,
>
> Is anyone besides me interested in knowing, quantitatively, what other moral
> transhumanists experts think aboutWikiLeaks and Julian Assange? ?How does a
> transhumanist consensus compare to the general population consensus?....
>
>

I doubt if you can get a yes / no answer to moral questions.

For example,
Sometimes yes, when he is exposing covered up crimes / lies.
Sometimes no, when he is endangering complex diplomatic negotiations
or individuals in dangerous situations.


BillK



From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sat Dec  4 20:15:05 2010
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:15:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] WikiLeaks: What is the moral transhumanist expert
	consensus?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimYM3A+QW=R49VketAQ=eij4UqZ6UTdD-kWCaeD@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFA93E4.7000309@canonizer.com>
	<AANLkTimYM3A+QW=R49VketAQ=eij4UqZ6UTdD-kWCaeD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFAA149.5000601@canonizer.com>

On 12/4/2010 12:53 PM, BillK wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Brent Allsop  wrote:
>> Moral Transhumanist Experts,
>>
>> Is anyone besides me interested in knowing, quantitatively, what other moral
>> transhumanists experts think aboutWikiLeaks and Julian Assange?  How does a
>> transhumanist consensus compare to the general population consensus?....
>>
>>
> I doubt if you can get a yes / no answer to moral questions.
>
> For example,
> Sometimes yes, when he is exposing covered up crimes / lies.
> Sometimes no, when he is endangering complex diplomatic negotiations
> or individuals in dangerous situations.
>
>
> BillK
>

First off, this is not seeking an answer or any kind of truth to a moral 
question, as it seems to me you are implying.  It instead is simply a 
survey, to rigorously measure what everyone thinks on this issue, and 
how different groups like transhumanists, the general population, moral 
experts, and so on compare.

Also, of course, with a traditional survey, your point is valid.  But 
canonizer.com is completely different.

There isn't a camp like you describe above yet, but you could create a 
camp that concisely states just what you've said here, and join that 
one.  The goal would be a definitive, concise moral expert consensus on 
just what is good and what is bad, along with a rigorous measure of how 
many moral experts feel precisely that way, compared to all other 
concisely stated moral theories.  I currently happen to disagree and am 
in the camp that believes in general everyone should know everything ( 
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/119/2 ).

The rules and the structure of the system enables large groups of 
experts to collaboratively negotiate and develop all of this, for the 
moral betterment of humanity.  Everyone eternally yelling yes, no, 
yes... and the ignorant immoral majority abusing the expert minority, 
mostly lead by immoral bottleneck hierarchies seeking to kill all other 
hierarchies, is still keeping us in the moral dark ages.

To the degree the minority moral experts are willing to help and work 
together collaboratively, I believe we can dramatically change things 
for the better.

Brent Allsop











From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 20:32:30 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 20:32:30 +0000
Subject: [ExI] WikiLeaks: What is the moral transhumanist expert
	consensus?
In-Reply-To: <4CFAA149.5000601@canonizer.com>
References: <4CFA93E4.7000309@canonizer.com>
	<AANLkTimYM3A+QW=R49VketAQ=eij4UqZ6UTdD-kWCaeD@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFAA149.5000601@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinSMW+ztY5LiWanRhuipcizp3WjfYLfAsfLm8g3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Brent Allsop  wrote:
> First off, this is not seeking an answer or any kind of truth to a moral
> question, as it seems to me you are implying. ?It instead is simply a
> survey, to rigorously measure what everyone thinks on this issue, and how
> different groups like transhumanists, the general population, moral experts,
> and so on compare.
>
> Also, of course, with a traditional survey, your point is valid. ?But
> canonizer.com is completely different.
>
> There isn't a camp like you describe above yet, but you could create a camp
> that concisely states just what you've said here, and join that one. ?The
> goal would be a definitive, concise moral expert consensus on just what is
> good and what is bad, along with a rigorous measure of how many moral
> experts feel precisely that way, compared to all other concisely stated
> moral theories. ?I currently happen to disagree and am in the camp that
> believes in general everyone should know everything (
> http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/119/2 ).
>
>


Those were just a few examples that immediately occurred to me.
It would have to be a 'Maybe' camp, with each example being judged on
a case by case basis. And even then some examples might come out as
mostly good, but with some bad side-effects and vice-versa.  So I
don't see it as a very useful camp to be in.  :)


BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 20:35:51 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 15:35:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimjsT65o+G_+5n7t9-4FUrqBbS7G8a=c1_hEZvC@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Dave Sill ?wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:53 PM, BillK ?wrote:
>>> the photon has to choose where to hit
>>
>> What does that mean?
>
> Read the article - it's obvious! ? ;)
> (It's written in simple language for beginners, that's why he used that phrase).
>
> Oh all right, I'll try an explanation.
> The photon is a probabilty wave function until it is measured (or hits
> the detector plate). The measurement might hit anywhere in the wave
> function. That's what he means.
> (Clue - he doesn't really think photons are self aware beings). ?:)

Thanks, Bill. I did read that part of the article, but I couldn't tell
what he meant. I'm not a physicist, but that explanation is obviously
a little too simple.

-Dave



From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sat Dec  4 20:57:06 2010
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 13:57:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] WikiLeaks: What is the moral transhumanist expert
	consensus?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinSMW+ztY5LiWanRhuipcizp3WjfYLfAsfLm8g3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFA93E4.7000309@canonizer.com>	<AANLkTimYM3A+QW=R49VketAQ=eij4UqZ6UTdD-kWCaeD@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFAA149.5000601@canonizer.com>
	<AANLkTinSMW+ztY5LiWanRhuipcizp3WjfYLfAsfLm8g3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFAAB22.7040802@canonizer.com>


Hi Bill,

You seem to be saying you think it isn't possible to come up with 
concise descriptions of some beneficial to humanity general moral 
behavioral theories on such issues?

Brent Allsop


On 12/4/2010 1:32 PM, BillK wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Brent Allsop  wrote:
>> First off, this is not seeking an answer or any kind of truth to a moral
>> question, as it seems to me you are implying.  It instead is simply a
>> survey, to rigorously measure what everyone thinks on this issue, and how
>> different groups like transhumanists, the general population, moral experts,
>> and so on compare.
>>
>> Also, of course, with a traditional survey, your point is valid.  But
>> canonizer.com is completely different.
>>
>> There isn't a camp like you describe above yet, but you could create a camp
>> that concisely states just what you've said here, and join that one.  The
>> goal would be a definitive, concise moral expert consensus on just what is
>> good and what is bad, along with a rigorous measure of how many moral
>> experts feel precisely that way, compared to all other concisely stated
>> moral theories.  I currently happen to disagree and am in the camp that
>> believes in general everyone should know everything (
>> http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/119/2 ).
>>
>>
>
> Those were just a few examples that immediately occurred to me.
> It would have to be a 'Maybe' camp, with each example being judged on
> a case by case basis. And even then some examples might come out as
> mostly good, but with some bad side-effects and vice-versa.  So I
> don't see it as a very useful camp to be in.  :)
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec  4 23:08:37 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:08:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin3q41Y_uMB-H4GPHvbvLsqNJ2=q5Q-4nksmF+v@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin3q41Y_uMB-H4GPHvbvLsqNJ2=q5Q-4nksmF+v@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFAC9F5.90101@satx.rr.com>

On 12/4/2010 4:41 AM, BillK wrote:

> Good article!

Terrible article, filled with errors and disgraceful innuendo, including 
unjustified imputations of dishonesty ("one cannot help but wonder if 
two experiments were indeed run, and each failed to produce significant 
results, and so the data from the two were combined, with the focus 
shifted to only the erotic pictures common to all participants," even 
though Alcock adds disingenuously, "Surely that was not done, for such 
an action would make a mockery of experimental rigor").

> With nice historical context.

A biased and misleading "context". Full of stuff like "Because of the 
lack of clear and replicable evidence, the Ganzfeld procedure has not 
lived up to the promise of providing the long-sought breakthrough that 
would lead to acceptance by mainstream science." In fact, the ganzfeld 
data are replicable and have been replicated (as shown in almost all the 
papers he himself cites), despite a botched critique by Richard Wiseman.

Professor Bem posted a quick reply to the careless critique of his 
paper, which he allows me to repost here:

=======
I strongly dispute Alcock's charge that I ran multiple t tests that 
should have been statistically corrected for multiple comparisons.

For each experimental hypothesis, I did a single t test.  For example, 
based on presentiment experiments in which subjects have shown 
pre-stimulus arousal to erotic stimuli, my first experiment tested the 
straightforward prediction that subjects would be able to select the 
curtain behind which an erotic picture would appear significantly more 
frequently than chance. (A blank wall was the non-target alternative on 
each trial.) Since there are two curtains, the null is 50%.

Subjects achieved a mean score of 53.1%, which is significant by a 
one-sample, one-tailed  t test.  But, because t tests assume normal 
distributions, I also submitted that same figure, .531, to a 
nonparametric binomial test across all trials and sessions.  Throughout 
the article, I did the same thing, presenting a parametric test and a 
nonparametric test on the same result.  The point was to counter the 
potential criticism that I relied on a statistical test that requires an 
underlying distribution. It was not a fishing expedition.

In that same study, I left as an open question whether there was 
something unique about erotic stimuli above and beyond their high 
arousal level and positive valence.  It might be that subjects could 
significantly detect other future stimuli, too, especially stimuli with 
high arousal and positive valence.  I discovered that?at least in this 
unselected population?subjects could not.  I did one t test showing that 
they scored significantly higher on erotic stimuli than on nonerotic 
stimuli and another t test showing that their performance on nonerotic 
stimuli did not differ from chance.

Finally, I did t tests showing that they did not differ from chance on 
any of the subcatagories of nonerotic stimuli either (e.g., negative 
stimuli, neutral stimuli, positive stimuli, romantic-but-nonerotic 
stimuli).  So, yes, if one glances at the page, you will see many t 
tests, but they are all in the service of showing no significant effects 
on nonerotic stimuli.  Correcting the p levels for multiple tests would 
have revealed?voila!?no significant psi hitting on nonerotic stimuli. 
The objection would have had more merit if I had found and then claimed 
that one subtype of nonerotic stimuli, (e.g., romantic stimuli) had 
shown significant psi hitting.

A similar misreading of multiple tests occurs in Experiments 2 & 7, 
where I expressed concerns about potential nonrandomness in the 
computer's successive left/right placements of targets.  To counter this 
possibility, I did 4 different analyses of the data (3 of them involving 
t-tests), each one controlling in a different ways for possible 
nonrandomness.  So, yes, if one glances superficially at Tables 2, 3, 
and 6, it looks like a lot of t tests were conducted.  But every test 
was aimed at showing that the same conclusion arises from different 
treatments of the same data. This is not the same thing as conducting 
several t tests on different portions of the data and then concluding 
that one of them showed a significant p level.

Ironically, the whole point of multiple tests here was to demonstrate 
that my statistical conclusions were the same no matter which kind of 
test I conducted and to defend against the potential charge that I must 
have tried several statistical tests and then cherry-picked and reported 
only the one that worked.

File this under the maxim that no good deed goes unpunished.


I have not yet taken the time to analyze the negative correlation 
between effect size and sample size that Alcock reports as a legitimate 
concern.  A similar debate occurred between Honorton and Hyman on a 
similar negative correlation found across ganzfeld experiments.  But, 
unlike the ganzfeld database, which included many data points, Alcock's 
calculation could not have had more than 9 data pairs to correlate. 
Correlations are notoriously unstable with such low numbers. I suspect 
the entire correlation rests on Experiment 7, which I designed to check 
out an unexpected serendipitous finding from the previous experiment and 
hence called for a large number of subjects (200),  and Experiment 9, a 
highly successful 50-subject replication of the previous Retroactive 
Recall experiment.  The other experiments offered very little variation; 
most of them involved 100 subjects.

I note, too, that many of the critics of my article accuse me of 
exploratory experiments, even though the predictions are always simply 
that I will find the same effect that is found in non-time-reversed 
versions of these standard effects.  Even more frequently overlooked is 
that 4 of my 9 experiments are themselves replications of the experiment 
that immediately preceded them.  (Hence, Retroactive Priming I and II; 
Retroactive Habituation I and II; and Retroactive Recall I and II). I 
did this, in part, to make sure that I wasn't misleading myself because 
of forgotten pilot testing conducted to work out the procedures of each 
initial experiment.

On another matter, I have now posted the complete replication package 
for the Retroactive Recall 1.1 experiment at http://dbem.ws/psistuff.

=============

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec  4 23:30:23 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 23:30:23 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
In-Reply-To: <4CFAC9F5.90101@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin3q41Y_uMB-H4GPHvbvLsqNJ2=q5Q-4nksmF+v@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFAC9F5.90101@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDHzXOQyMXFTqf9bPR=f8wmCNctWN-nTGwy-=n@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 11:08 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Terrible article, filled with errors and disgraceful innuendo, including
> unjustified imputations of dishonesty ("one cannot help but wonder if two
> experiments were indeed run, and each failed to produce significant results,
> and so the data from the two were combined, with the focus shifted to only
> the erotic pictures common to all participants," even though Alcock adds
> disingenuously, "Surely that was not done, for such an action would make a
> mockery of experimental rigor").
>
>


Well, surely his original description must have been very badly
written to allow interpretations that he disagrees with so strongly?
Perhaps he should do a complete rewrite.

But whether or not his statistical findings prove psi is still an
entirely open question.

Perhaps he was praying very hard for a good result?

Or perhaps Mercury was in a good aspect with Uranus at the time of his
experiment?

Or perhaps his candidates had a few lucky guesses that a longer
experiment would negate?

As I quoted, a statistical bias has no preference for which theory
might or might not have been the cause when no mechanism can be
demonstrated. Choose your favorite theory.


BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec  4 23:59:42 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:59:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikDHzXOQyMXFTqf9bPR=f8wmCNctWN-nTGwy-=n@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTin3q41Y_uMB-H4GPHvbvLsqNJ2=q5Q-4nksmF+v@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFAC9F5.90101@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikDHzXOQyMXFTqf9bPR=f8wmCNctWN-nTGwy-=n@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFAD5EE.5000107@satx.rr.com>

On 12/4/2010 5:30 PM, BillK wrote:

> Well, surely his original description must have been very badly
> written to allow interpretations that he disagrees with so strongly?
> Perhaps he should do a complete rewrite.

Alcock is (as your people put it, BillK) all cock and bull. Unlike his 
colleague Hyman. To see what kind of deceptive claptrap his "context" 
section is, have a careful look at Dr. Radin's response:

<http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-comments-on-alcocks-comments-on-bems.html>

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec  5 06:19:59 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 00:19:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>

On 12/4/2010 1:48 PM, BillK wrote:

> Oh all right, I'll try an explanation.
> The photon is a probabilty wave function until it is measured (or hits
> the detector plate). The measurement might hit anywhere in the wave
> function. That's what he means.

Yeah, it drives me nuts when woowoos** babble about "measurement" as if 
it's necessarily a human mental activity, rather than just an 
interaction. However, even so, I don't know the answer to a point raised 
by your guys:

<Presumably the photon is bumping into, and interacting with, all kinds 
of things on the way to the cardboard, but they apparently don't count 
as "measurements." >

Air molecules, say, So, for example, does the double slit gag work 
better, more clearly, if it's done in vacuo rather than through the air 
of the lab? What happens if you run your photons or electrons through 
water before they hit the slits?

Damien Broderick
**no, I'm not one, and I'll have to hurt anyone who says otherwise...


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 10:30:06 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 10:30:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:19 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Presumably the photon is bumping into, and interacting with, all kinds of
> things on the way to the cardboard, but they apparently don't count as
> "measurements." >
>
> Air molecules, say, So, for example, does the double slit gag work better,
> more clearly, if it's done in vacuo rather than through the air of the lab?
> What happens if you run your photons or electrons through water before they
> hit the slits?
>
>

That's a simple question, but the answer gets as complicated as you like.  :)

I'll start with a few simple explanations that experts will start
picking holes in, but might be`enough for you.

Basically light doesn't react with air molecules. That's why we can
see. If our eyes were sensitive to different wavelengths that do react
with air, our eyesight would be poor and that model didn't survive
evolution.

----------------------
You next question is probably 'WHY doesn't light react with air molecules?'
(Careful, you're getting more complicated).


Photons are very tiny and gas molecules are widely separated, so hits
are rare. But light does weaken, the more stuff it has to go through.
Occasional hits do happen. Think of absorption lines in light from
distant stars.

By default any object will be transparent to a certain wavelength
(color) of light, unless that wavelength is of the exact energy needed
to cause something to happen in the object, like promoting an electron
to a higher energy level. The molecules in air aren't effected much by
the visible wavelengths of light, so most of the time light will pass
through the air without having an effect on it. (Different
wavelengths, like X-rays, can see through flesh).

When a photon (of any region of the spectrum) hits an atom a number of
things can occur:
1) the atom can absorb the energy and an electron will move to a
higher state within it, this can either be stored or released in
another frequency e.g. metals often release heat, and phosphorus turns
UV into visible light
2) the electron can jump, revolve once and release the photon back in
the opposite direction i.e. reflection
3) the atom may not be able to absorb the energy and the electron may
continue uninhibited.

There are also all sorts of scattering processes that can occur. In
scattering the photon is not actually absorbed, but 'bounces' off in a
different direction, sometimes at a different wavelength. Scattering
is what causes the sky to be blue, since nitrogen scatters blue light
more than other colors.
----------------------


If you want to go to the top for the most complicated explanation, it
is Quantum Electrodynamics.
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics>
Feynman has some good lectures (and books) on it.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 10:55:56 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:55:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Best case, was Hard Takeoff
In-Reply-To: <08AD78CA-48A9-4232-BF77-6980A9745EF7@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTik2dp6_JCcMWJy+OeFAyK-Jmhk5QgrhuijZ5++n@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=KzhNTDDkR=rzMUZaHEdPS9xXSzTctDaFhTQoN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMLUrLafKGTd1grOTbGjVNKXrsw6UXOrf6yGD=@mail.gmail.com>
	<08AD78CA-48A9-4232-BF77-6980A9745EF7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=9wEFyYnXkDEtD51uTmXftpFqKDx4W7vQC=YTj@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 November 2010 05:58, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Not really. ?Friendly AI is posited as a better alternative than Unfriendly AI given that AI of great enough power to be dangerous is likely. ?All the wonderful things that some ascribe to what FAI will or at least may do for us are quite beside the fundamental point.

Such idea however required some less acritical definition of
"friendly/unfriendly", of "danger" and of "AI". If I were to say that
unfriendly wordprocessor are dangerous, most people would ask what I
really mean. For AGI, many seem to make a number of factual and
valorial assumptions that do not bear a closer inspection, IMHO.

>> - the second has to do with technological skepticism as to the reality
>> and imminence of any perceived threat;
>
> AGI is very very likely IFF we don't destroy the technological base beyond repair first. ? How soon is a separable question. ?Expert opinions range from 10 - 100 years with a median at around 30 years.

I certainly hope you are right. Only, I am quite opposed to make it an
article of faith relative to something that would be achieved anyway
irrespective of any actual effort to this end.

>> - the third has to do with a more fundamental, philosophical
>> questioning of such a perception of threat and the underlying
>> psychology and value system, not to mention its possible neoluddite
>> implications.
>
> Irrelevant to whether AGI friendliness is important to think about or not. ? ?Calling it neoluddite to be concerned is prejudging the entire question in an unhelpful manner.

Fear of the machines as such is the very definition of Luddism.
Admittedly, most of those concerned with unfriendly AGI imagine that
friendly AGI could and should be developed in its stead. From a
practical point of view, they risk however to be objective allies of
those who would like to control AGI research on a precautionary
principle basis.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 11:09:13 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:09:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hard Takeoff
In-Reply-To: <007E90B0-6B7C-403A-995B-BB9AEAA07582@mac.com>
References: <810705.72511.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<001c01cb89c1$ea9974d0$bfcc5e70$@att.net>
	<670CF4BE-1C5C-4C8B-A50E-DCA517775DBC@mac.com>
	<AANLkTi=evKjTou2i3jMcL9nCgdfhibMnF-VBMBLKy8cq@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=Sns9ZMFN7umj5YHGPF8TKQ0NJuQ9PXhR-wqtv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=Q+UTi-S9J_w8xG2imEboC3--itF=2xN6OQaxp@mail.gmail.com>
	<007E90B0-6B7C-403A-995B-BB9AEAA07582@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimd-BEf-8fW28W83tW1huo9fKxwyD5LoAKjLLym@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 November 2010 06:02, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> What? ?You don't think attempting to maximize the outcomes that ensue is worth thinking about at all? ? You think it is presumptuous to even bother to attempt to predict alternatives and do what we can (which admittedly may not be a lot) to make more desirable outcomes more likely? ? If you do think this are you in the do-nothing camp re technology and how it is deployed in the future? ?I don't think so judging from your activities but perhaps I am mistaken.

No. I think that while there have always been, and probably there will
always be, a struggle for technological superiority, the fundamental
confrontation today is between those who would like, for whatever
reason, to relinquish or more plausibly to control and/or freeze
promethean researches and paradigm-shifting developments, and those
who favour their very continued possibility (accepting of course the
9usual risks we have been facing at each step of our evolution).

Accordingly, I think that the mission of transhumanism is to present
the case for the second option, and organising grass-root activism to
this effect. Sure, as a citizen, I would be crazy to oppose security
and safety measures and sometimes reasonable compromises, especially
when the costs and risks and the progress-hindering potential of the
latter are relatively negligible. But I do not see so much need for
our engaging in the defence of such values, since they are already the
main obsession of our entire culture.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 10:45:22 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:45:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hard Takeoff
In-Reply-To: <68615171-8482-4C00-AAD2-C3DCB7368344@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTin2oUPcQwMxKgR8gyfed0Lyp1CNNavwb2FyKd-1@mail.gmail.com>
	<DEFA40A9-B72A-43C2-8DD1-9E1BAD7F459E@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinSn3h-vQYyi9M3gVU0vO5eZxnTL=iLBfZxA=7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2933141-61B9-4FF7-B55E-6177EAA9B054@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikOyuKq7GRR_KCie08Tj3qhA961XCUptSg8i_+7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik=-kh8Hso-ecFBBqn5HqaZLQDRJtm2Qv_N-hYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikaQ3gbUNV67wXQng6iPaOiQk3Fct6m608O3B_o@mail.gmail.com>
	<68615171-8482-4C00-AAD2-C3DCB7368344@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimRS+gakmW=Jd42c3i9HsW92dn+4Hv+xFBP5_HL@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 November 2010 05:59, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Please make your informed argument why no takeoff is most likely if you believe this is the case.

Hostility, indifference, short-termism, insufficient or non-existent
investments in fundamental research, inertia, educational and cultural
decline, slowing down of technological acceleration, inability to
overcome dominant paradigms, de-industrialisation of the west,
globalisation, lack of vision, epidemic neoluddism...

Thus, a static Brave New World scenario would seem at least possible,
or even probable.

In any event, if you want to achieve something it is always better to
be pessimistic on the difficulties you have to face. If you are lucky
and things end up being actually better or easier than imagined, the
desired outcome would be only even more assured, wouldn't it?

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 11:20:25 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:20:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Ray Kurzweil's predictions regarding the Singularity
In-Reply-To: <4CF47673.5010504@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimVxCtHg0x+gkx5x+6WzqWG648Dt3b+yj6AmzOk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimkGehuO9sdijEVB0t5qq-9aW5cOEM3t_UvnaOx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin9RrXCZkmn4D2xmxz2F-cWJ5tUiL5YE4TQOA5x@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CF47673.5010504@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=gVnmmNHFx304XBWbsgg=ZuwN34zBFF9kKbVd3@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 November 2010 04:58, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> With annual doubling, that would predict... 2016. For 100 petaflops. 2014
> looks right for 30 petaflops.

With a half-decent database and a modest improvement in AI
programming, this should be more than enough to make it competitive
with ordinary, PC-like human beings as to their score in Turing
tests... ;-)

As to the "philosophical" questions, I maintain that most of them are
too vague to admit sensible answers...


-- 
Stefano Vaj


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 13:04:35 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 06:04:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hard Takeoff
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimRS+gakmW=Jd42c3i9HsW92dn+4Hv+xFBP5_HL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin2oUPcQwMxKgR8gyfed0Lyp1CNNavwb2FyKd-1@mail.gmail.com>
	<DEFA40A9-B72A-43C2-8DD1-9E1BAD7F459E@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinSn3h-vQYyi9M3gVU0vO5eZxnTL=iLBfZxA=7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2933141-61B9-4FF7-B55E-6177EAA9B054@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikOyuKq7GRR_KCie08Tj3qhA961XCUptSg8i_+7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik=-kh8Hso-ecFBBqn5HqaZLQDRJtm2Qv_N-hYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikaQ3gbUNV67wXQng6iPaOiQk3Fct6m608O3B_o@mail.gmail.com>
	<68615171-8482-4C00-AAD2-C3DCB7368344@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimRS+gakmW=Jd42c3i9HsW92dn+4Hv+xFBP5_HL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim-9-rKbhtckT2KOj+=mPtyyL+nLTOg+HsVNs4v@mail.gmail.com>

Stefano wrote:
Hostility, indifference, short-termism, insufficient or non-existent
investments in fundamental research, inertia, educational and cultural
decline, slowing down of technological acceleration, inability to
overcome dominant paradigms, de-industrialisation of the west,
globalisation, lack of vision, epidemic neoluddism...

Thus, a static Brave New World scenario would seem at least possible,
or even probable.
>>>

But the American military-industrial complex is a juggernaut of
research programs for those subjects that it considers within it's
defined interests.  And so I see life extension/biotech generally
being neglected (except for regeneration and various means to create
superior warriors), but AGI in terms of robotics, cyberwarfare, etc.,
as being seen as a vital interest that will be heavily funded.

I have read that nearly 40% of the U.S. military budget is classified,
with only a very few knowing what the money is actually spent on.  I
have a feeling some very "transhumanist" research programs are going
on, with budgets in the many millions or even billions, that you may
not be hearing about for some time...

John


On 12/5/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 29 November 2010 05:59, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>> Please make your informed argument why no takeoff is most likely if you
>> believe this is the case.
>
> Hostility, indifference, short-termism, insufficient or non-existent
> investments in fundamental research, inertia, educational and cultural
> decline, slowing down of technological acceleration, inability to
> overcome dominant paradigms, de-industrialisation of the west,
> globalisation, lack of vision, epidemic neoluddism...
>
> Thus, a static Brave New World scenario would seem at least possible,
> or even probable.
>
> In any event, if you want to achieve something it is always better to
> be pessimistic on the difficulties you have to face. If you are lucky
> and things end up being actually better or easier than imagined, the
> desired outcome would be only even more assured, wouldn't it?
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 13:54:59 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 14:54:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hard Takeoff
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim-9-rKbhtckT2KOj+=mPtyyL+nLTOg+HsVNs4v@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin2oUPcQwMxKgR8gyfed0Lyp1CNNavwb2FyKd-1@mail.gmail.com>
	<DEFA40A9-B72A-43C2-8DD1-9E1BAD7F459E@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinSn3h-vQYyi9M3gVU0vO5eZxnTL=iLBfZxA=7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2933141-61B9-4FF7-B55E-6177EAA9B054@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikOyuKq7GRR_KCie08Tj3qhA961XCUptSg8i_+7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik=-kh8Hso-ecFBBqn5HqaZLQDRJtm2Qv_N-hYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikaQ3gbUNV67wXQng6iPaOiQk3Fct6m608O3B_o@mail.gmail.com>
	<68615171-8482-4C00-AAD2-C3DCB7368344@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimRS+gakmW=Jd42c3i9HsW92dn+4Hv+xFBP5_HL@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim-9-rKbhtckT2KOj+=mPtyyL+nLTOg+HsVNs4v@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimv593r8Ufkr4n5BWRW_xd5nye5p3fZFs1OpuH3@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 December 2010 14:04, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Stefano wrote:
>> Thus, a static Brave New World scenario would seem at least possible,
>> or even probable.
>
> But the American military-industrial complex is a juggernaut of
> research programs for those subjects that it considers within it's
> defined interests.

In fact, I suspect business, corporate-level competition to be a poor
substitute for international, community-level competition in terms of
technological accelerating factors. In this respect, real or perceived
outside threats may be one's best chance to see a little public funds
devoted to cutting-edge research rather than to appeasing the
different constituencies of the political classes in power...

We may like it or not, but it is undeniable that allegedly
military-relevant research programmes are in a less comatose state, at
least in the US,  than the rest.

In Europe, we cannot even console ourselves with that.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec  5 15:35:05 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 09:35:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>

On 12/5/2010 4:30 AM, BillK wrote:

>> >  Presumably the photon is bumping into, and interacting with, all kinds of
>> >  things on the way to the cardboard, but they apparently don't count as
>> >  "measurements.">

>> >  Air molecules, say, So, for example, does the double slit gag work better,
>> >  more clearly, if it's done in vacuo rather than through the air of the lab?
>> >  What happens if you run your photons or electrons through water before they
>> >  hit the slits?

> That's a simple question, but the answer gets as complicated as you like.  :)

<condescending aside snipped>

> Basically light doesn't react with air molecules.

Yes, that's the obvious reply, but evidently it didn't satisfy the two 
physicists quoted above from the essay you recommended.

Can you bounce the light off a mirror, or send it through a lens, before 
running it through the two slits, and still get fringes? I would assume 
that you can't, because that *would* be a "measurement".

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 15:46:31 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:46:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimoGFUP-B66j6OYsEbtAcDJF_PcWoKYPFU=zw5d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Damien Broderick  wrote:
> Can you bounce the light off a mirror, or send it through a lens, before
> running it through the two slits, and still get fringes? I would assume that
> you can't, because that *would* be a "measurement".
>
>


Yes, you can.  A 'measurement' has to be a photo-sensitive surface of
some kind that reacts with the photon. Just bouncing off a mirror
doesn't affect the photon wave / particle.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 15:50:53 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:50:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hard Takeoff
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimd-BEf-8fW28W83tW1huo9fKxwyD5LoAKjLLym@mail.gmail.com>
References: <810705.72511.qm@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<001c01cb89c1$ea9974d0$bfcc5e70$@att.net>
	<670CF4BE-1C5C-4C8B-A50E-DCA517775DBC@mac.com>
	<AANLkTi=evKjTou2i3jMcL9nCgdfhibMnF-VBMBLKy8cq@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=Sns9ZMFN7umj5YHGPF8TKQ0NJuQ9PXhR-wqtv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=Q+UTi-S9J_w8xG2imEboC3--itF=2xN6OQaxp@mail.gmail.com>
	<007E90B0-6B7C-403A-995B-BB9AEAA07582@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimd-BEf-8fW28W83tW1huo9fKxwyD5LoAKjLLym@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=A220oUfb5trrXud7haW7kySWLHYSP8W6zQ-AU@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 December 2010 12:09, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Accordingly, I think that the mission of transhumanism is to present
> the case for the second option, and organising grass-root activism to
> this effect. Sure, as a citizen, I would be crazy to oppose security
> and safety measures and sometimes reasonable compromises, especially
> when the costs and risks and the progress-hindering potential of the
> latter are relatively negligible. But I do not see so much need for
> our engaging in the defence of such values, since they are already the
> main obsession of our entire culture.

Reading today for the first time:

<<The following years have seen a clear shift toward two things: first, more
attention to converting transhumanist concepts into actionable policy
(although some of that existed from the start) and, second, a growing
emphasis on risks, threats, and dangers arising from the development of the
technologies essential to the realization of the transhumanist vision. In my
view, while part of this shift is salutary, it has gone too far.

*Too many transhumanists seem on the verge of joining with advocates of the
anti-progress advocates of the precautionary principle. Perhaps they have
seen how so many other organizations and movements (especially those to do
with environmentalism) have flourished by emphasizing or exaggerating or
inventing threats, and so seek consciously or unconsciously to emulate them.
My work on the Proactionary Principle was motivated by the need to balance
the social forces that seek to retard vital progress, but is increasing
relevant when applied internally to transhumanism.*>>

How can one say it any better? ;-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec  5 15:50:56 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 07:50:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001701cb9494$35132970$9f397c50$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
...

>Can you bounce the light off a mirror, or send it through a lens, before
running it through the two slits, and still get fringes? 

Yes to both, although I haven't actually done those experiments, so I am
relying on my suspect understanding.  A laser beam doesn't know it has been
reflected off a mirror, as far as I can tell.  In every case where I have
used them, they behave the same coming off as they did coming into the
mirror.  Sending a light source thru a lens: the double slit result predates
lasers by a long ways.  I don't know how the beam was focused, but it stands
to reason they did it somehow.

> I would assume that you can't, because that *would* be a "measurement".
Damien Broderick

Excellent questions, but it isn't clear to me that sending photons at a
mirror or thru a lens constitutes a measurement.  I don't see how a mirror
or refractive element gains any information about a photon with which it
interacts.  But I am no expert on this.  Open to suggestion.

spike








From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 16:05:40 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 09:05:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>

A number of years ago I posted that the battle between Scientology and
the net was a warm up for the days when a major government got in a
fight with the net.

Later I decided governments were not likely to get in a fight with the
net because they learned that such battles are hopeless.

The fight with Wikileaks indicates that governments didn't learn a
thing from the battle with the cult.

Once something is out there being copied, be it secret cult documents
or State Dept cables, the *worse* thing an organization can do is to
make a huge fuss about it.

Sigh.

Keith


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 17:06:10 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:06:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <001701cb9494$35132970$9f397c50$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
	<001701cb9494$35132970$9f397c50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikoRB9_YWOnimwZCUR6dVZE0sGXr8Q0JZfRWVBG@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 10:50 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Excellent questions, but it isn't clear to me that sending photons at a
> mirror or thru a lens constitutes a measurement. ?I don't see how a mirror
> or refractive element gains any information about a photon with which it
> interacts. ?But I am no expert on this. ?Open to suggestion.

Has anyone proposed an information theory explanation for wave/particle duality?

Is the information itself relevant to the complexity of the experiment?



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec  5 17:57:23 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:57:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 5, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> Can you bounce the light off a mirror, or send it through a lens, before running it through the two slits, and still get fringes? I would assume that you can't, because that *would* be a "measurement".

The history of the photon before it hit the mirror is irrelevant. You'd still get fringes UNLESS there was a measurement made AFTER the photon left the mirror to determine if the photon went through slit A or slit B; unless a measurement is made it is meaningless to ask which slit it went through, at least that's what you'd say if you believed in the Copenhagen interpretation.

If you believed in the Many Worlds interpretation you'd say that when the photon approached the slits the universe split, but when they hit the film the 2 universes would recombine because there was no longer any difference between the 2 universes, but you'd still have evidence the photon went through slit A only and evidence it went through slit B only and that would produce fringes; measurement doesn't enter into it as the two universes would recombine even if you replaced the film with a brick wall, if you had neither film nor a brick wall and allowed the photons to go out into infinite space after passing the slits the universe would split and remain split because there would be an enduring difference between the 2 universes. 

Unfortunately there is no way to perform experiments on photons traveling in infinite space, and if  they hit a photographic plate and are destroyed both Copenhagen and Many Worlds predict identical experimental results, that makes figuring out which is correct difficult.

 John K Clark

 
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 17:51:07 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:51:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>

>Once something is out there being copied, be it secret cult documents
or State Dept cables, the *worse* thing an organization can do is to
make a huge fuss about it<

It depends on your objective. If it's to keep the leaked information as
low-key as possible even after its release it doesn't seem like a good
strategy. But I think the goal here may be less about keeping the
information secret than punishing those responsible for leaking it. Julian
Assange has had his passport red-noticed by Interpol so he cannot travel
outside of the U.K. where they suspect he's hiding, and his lawyers claimed
recently they are being surveilled by U.S. intelligence services. The reason
for the red-notice is a warrant for two sexual assault charges against
Assange that conveniently appeared in Sweden just as this round of documents
were leaked. Amazon was forced through political pressure to stop hosting
Wikileaks, and U.S. State Department employees have been ordered not to look
at the documents from work or even at home.

Individuals, corporations, media and the general public have just been put
on notice that the government will exercise its right to secrecy by whatever
means it can. And its means are many. Perhaps that's why they think they can
get away with it when others haven't. I think they're wrong too, of course.
Civil disobedience inspires civil disobedience. I know if my government
ordered me not to look at a document from the privacy of my own home, the
first thing I would do is break the edict. In some ways Scientology is
better equipped to handle such a battle than the U.S. government. They at
least enjoy a slavish devotion and mindless obedience from the majority of
their proponents. Democratic governments usually get less than half.

Darren





On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> A number of years ago I posted that the battle between Scientology and
> the net was a warm up for the days when a major government got in a
> fight with the net.
>
> Later I decided governments were not likely to get in a fight with the
> net because they learned that such battles are hopeless.
>
> The fight with Wikileaks indicates that governments didn't learn a
> thing from the battle with the cult.
>
> Once something is out there being copied, be it secret cult documents
> or State Dept cables, the *worse* thing an organization can do is to
> make a huge fuss about it.
>
> Sigh.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec  5 18:35:49 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 10:35:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between
	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark

 


>. if the photon went through slit A or slit B; unless a measurement is made
it is meaningless to ask which slit it went through, at least that's what
you'd say if you believed in the Copenhagen interpretation.If you believed
in the Many Worlds interpretation you'd say that when the photon approached
the slits the universe split, but when they hit the film the 2 universes
would recombine because there was no longer any difference between the 2
universes. John K Clark

 

 

Hi John, I have pondered these and other explanations, but I find them all
less than satisfactory, with the feel of absurdity.  It is no more
outlandish to say that quantum mechanics observations are an artifact of the
limits of computation presented by the MBrain in which we are being
simulated.  Particle-wave duality, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, the
universal speed of light, quantum mechanics, could all be explained as
limits of computation, only recently being glimpsed by us, of the emergent
AI (us) within a universal simulation.  I recognize that this explanation
sounds like a religion-ish copout or artful dodge, but really it feels no
more absurd than the Copenhagen, the Many Worlds, Feynman diagrams, and all
the other crazy-ass notions, none of which have the ring of truth I so
persistently seek and find in physical theory.  

 

I don't like it, but I must reluctantly grant the reality-as-an-MBrain-sim
crowd nearly equal legitimacy with the real physicists.

 

{8-[

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Dec  5 18:40:50 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 13:40:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
In-Reply-To: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 4, 2010, at 12:55 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> <http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/back_from_the_future>

The tipoff that something was wrong was when Bem said his goal was ?to provide well-controlled demonstrations of psi"; so if his experiment did not give evidence for psi then he figured there must be something wrong with his methodology so he kept changing it until he got something compatible with his goal. His goal should have been to find out the truth about psi regardless of how painful and incompatible with previous beliefs that may be.

 John K Clark


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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec  5 18:52:14 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 10:52:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>


Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks

 

>Once something is out there being copied, be it secret cult documents
or State Dept cables, the *worse* thing an organization can do is to
make a huge fuss about it<.Keith

 

Ja, and it feels to me like they blame the wrong guy.  Everywhere it is
Assange this and Assange that, but they shoot the messenger.  More guilty is
PFC Manning, but even then, the real leakers are those who put anything
potentially damaging on any network that had computers with a flash drive
anywhere in the system.  We have secure links for the purposes of handling
secure and secret email traffic.  In those, there are no flash drive ports,
no floppy drives (remember those?), no wireless anything, not even any hard
drives, and even the secure net printers are few, protected by heavy locked
doors and every page carefully monitored by many watchful eyes.  If an
intranet fails in any of those criteria, then it is not a secure link, and
should never be used to post secret or sensitive info.  Proper secure links
are secure and they don't leak. 

 

If these ambassadors were putting info that could endanger lives and
international relations on a non-secure link accessible by a PRIVATE FIRST
CLASS (fer crying out loud) then it is THEIR damn fault.  Assange should be
prosecuted for rape (if he did it) but for leaking, nah.  He didn't leak the
careless ambassadors did it.

 

spike

 

 

 

 





 

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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec  5 19:45:13 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 13:45:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
In-Reply-To: <EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4CFBEBC9.509@satx.rr.com>

On 12/5/2010 12:40 PM, John Clark wrote:

> he figured there must be something wrong with his methodology so he kept
> changing it until he got something compatible with his goal.

Read his rebuttal to this mischievous nonsense in my earlier post 
(12/4/2010 5:08 PM).

Damien Broderick


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 22:04:15 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 23:04:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer
In-Reply-To: <EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/5 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> The tipoff that something was wrong was when Bem said his goal was ?to
> provide well-controlled demonstrations of psi"; so if his experiment did not
> give evidence for psi then he figured there must be something wrong with his
> methodology so he kept changing it until he got something compatible with
> his goal. His goal should have been to find out the truth about psi
> regardless of how painful and incompatible with previous beliefs that may
> be.?
>

Come on.

I am still perplexed on the results of such experiments (my only personal
inclination is to give some credit to non-quantistic telepathic phenomena),
but nobody would ever dream of criticising per se an effort "to provide
well-controlled demonstrations of proton decay" or "of the life-extension
effects of caloric restriction".

Most discoveries originate anyway from experimental attempts, including
failed attempts, to demonstrate a given hypothesis the experimenter is
interested in.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From scerir at alice.it  Sun Dec  5 22:15:13 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir at alice.it)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 23:15:13 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
Message-ID: <30988029.1700691291587313441.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>



Mike asked:

-Has anyone proposed an information theory explanation for wave/particle duality?

Sure! 
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201026
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0212084


-Is the information itself relevant to the complexity of the experiment?

I do not understand "complexity". Information is essential
from many p.o.v. In example if you have reasons to believe
that a photon (whatever it is) will go through one of the slits 
(asymmetry of the beam, etc.) you are going to destroy partially
the interference pattern. There is a smooth transition from the
interferential pattern to a non interferential pattern, depending on the
information (whose nature may also be probabilistic) you have.
Not to say here that you can also erase that information .....		Alice				body {margin:0;padding:0;}				#footer { height:13px; font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, FreeSans, sans-serif; color:#ADADAD; margin:0; padding:7px 12px; text-align:right; border-top:1px solid #dcdcdc; }		#footer a { text-decoration:none; color:#ADADAD; }		#footer a:hover { color:#848484; }				Inviato dalla nuova Alice mail	
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  5 23:54:03 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 19:54:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bmZrwN-hoKcGqbpLmduh6vfoGZooKxeJWuV05@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:

>Julian Assange has had his passport red-noticed by Interpol so he cannot
travel outside of the U.K. where they suspect he's hiding, and his lawyers
claimed recently they are being surveilled by U.S. intelligence services.
The reason for the red-notice is a warrant for two sexual assault charges
against Assange that conveniently appeared in Sweden just as this round of
documents were leaked.<

Correction. I was just watching the evening news and it turns out he has not
been charged nor has a warrant been issued for his arrest. He's been red
noticed based on the allegations alone.

Darren





2010/12/5 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Wikileaks
>
>
>
> >Once something is out there being copied, be it secret cult documents
> or State Dept cables, the *worse* thing an organization can do is to
> make a huge fuss about it<?Keith
>
>
>
> Ja, and it feels to me like they blame the wrong guy.  Everywhere it is
> Assange this and Assange that, but they shoot the messenger.  More guilty is
> PFC Manning, but even then, the real leakers are those who put anything
> potentially damaging on any network that had computers with a flash drive
> anywhere in the system.  We have secure links for the purposes of handling
> secure and secret email traffic.  In those, there are no flash drive ports,
> no floppy drives (remember those?), no wireless anything, not even any hard
> drives, and even the secure net printers are few, protected by heavy locked
> doors and every page carefully monitored by many watchful eyes.  If an
> intranet fails in any of those criteria, then it is not a secure link, and
> should never be used to post secret or sensitive info.  Proper secure links
> are secure and they don?t leak.
>
>
>
> If these ambassadors were putting info that could endanger lives and
> international relations on a non-secure link accessible by a PRIVATE FIRST
> CLASS (fer crying out loud) then it is THEIR damn fault.  Assange should be
> prosecuted for rape (if he did it) but for leaking, nah.  He didn?t leak the
> careless ambassadors did it.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks


 <http://www.smileyopen.com/wp/ie.php?plg=ie&subs=gmail&elm=sign>
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  6 04:49:13 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 20:49:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
Message-ID: <440393.59678.qm@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 5:17:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse aging
> 
> Interestingly, Aubrey de Grey's SENS includes a scheme for totally eliminating 


>all cancers, by taking the opposite approach:? Get rid of telomerase and all 
>other means of lengthening telomeres.? Of course, that brings its own problems, 


>but it stops cancer dead in its tracks.

When I first read?this, I thought it was very naive.?So I looked up a detailed 
description of his strategy here:

http://www.sens.org/files/pdf/WILT.pdf
?
My objections to it follow:
?
1.?First what he was suggesting was similar to purposefully giving people?the 
equivalent of dyskeratosis congenita, a genetic birth defect where people are 
born without normal telomerase function. The problem is that?these people?are 
actually?*more* prone to cancer and start getting them around ten years old. You 

can find a complete medical description of dyskeratosis?here on pubmed for free:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20301779
?
?
2. The?second?reason is that?once a cell violates its genetic programming and 
goes cancerous, all the rules go out the window.?If telomerase is available, it 
will?use it to lengthen its telomeres. If telomerase is not available it will 
start using?alternative 

methods to lengthen its telomeres like?using?the homologous recombination 
machinery 

normally reserved for DNA repair and meiosis of germline cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892175/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649016/?tool=pubmed
?
And if that doesn't work, cancer?cells have no qualms against just?sticking 
chromosomes together end to end with non-homologous end joining. Cancer cells 
will?duplicate genes or entire chromosomes (polyploidy), lose genes or entire?
chromosomes, and mix bits and pieces of different chromosomes together if need 
be.

http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v21/n45/pdf/1205566a.pdf?
?
So profound is a cancer cell's ability to mutate at fast speed that it can form 
structures known?as ring chromosomes that recapitulate the ancestral bacterium's 

circular telomere-independent chromosome.
http://atlasgeneticsoncology.org/Deep/RingChromosID20030.html

In short, cancer cells have all the tools of evolution at their disposal at 
speeds normally associated single-celled organisms.
?
?
3. The?next problem is that?de Grey's strategy underestimates the importance 
of?the immune system in cancer prevention. This process is called 
immunosurveillance and mice and people with defective immune systems are 
notoriously prone to cancer.??The white blood cells that?normally protect people 

from cancer *need* telomerase to function properly because the mechanism by 
which they operate depends on?the mass replication?of the?white blood cell 
lineages?that can recognize and kill tumor cells.
?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857231/
?
Of course this mechanism of amplification of the efficacious clones is used to 
combat mundane infections as well. So not only would telomerase-deficiency make 
one prone to cancer, it would make one susceptible to death from?normally benign 

viral, bacterial, and fungal infections.?
?
4. De Grey's?solution to this problem is "reseeding" whereby engineered stem 
cells are periodically given to people to replace high turnover tissues such as 
the blood cells, skin, and gut epithelium. This?work-around however brings 
up?the next problem: The relationship?between cancer and stem cells is 
poorly understood and?these reseeded stem cells could very well *become* 
?cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20688584
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19684619
?
And if the stem cells are treated to lack telomerase, like the rest of the cells 

of the body in WILT, they no longer qualify as stem cells since the capacity for 

self-renewal is one of the defining characteristics for stem cells. So these 
telomerase deficient stem cells would be the?medical equivalent of GM food crops 

that can't make seeds, requiring one to be beholden to whatever biotech company 
happens to be manufacturing your crippled stem cells for you.?If we are talking 
about 

immune system stem cells, then?catching a simple cold could deplete ones entire 
resevoir of non-self-renewing hematopietic stem cells.????
?
5. Aside from the theoretical problems with the WILT strategy, the technical 
challenges would be horrendous. With the current state of the art, gene 
knockouts are a?messy and rather hit or miss affair. They involve?trying the 
targeted gene deletion?on?a great many embryos, then screening for that one 
precious embryo or cell line in which it worked. While this is feasible with 
mice, the bioethicists would have a?canniption if you?tried that with human 
embryos.?But what use is a gene knockout of an embryo going to be to an already 
full grown population of possible cancer victims??While gene knockouts are done 
routinely on human cells in a petri dish,?I am not aware of any existing 
technique that would allow one to delete a gene from all 10^14 cells of an adult 

human in vivo:
?
http://www.biotechniques.com/BiotechniquesJournal/2006/September/Simple-one-week-method-to-construct-gene-targeting-vectors-application-to-production-of-human-knockout-cell-lines/biotechniques-40137.html?pageNum=3


?
So my final analysis is that de Grey's strategy is inelegant, convoluted, and 
unlikely to work?in a time and cost?frame that would make it competitive with 
other developing cancer?treatments. Top-down management seldom works in 
bottom-up organized systems. Such?seems to?be as true in biology as it is in 
economics.??
?
From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 9:26:33 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse aging

>What if you extended the telomeres, such that the only way senescence would
>set in is via damage leading to cancer?
?
In theory, this could work but there are several very serious technical 
challenges involved.
?
? Maybe add in a very slow telomere
>extending enzyme, that replaces telomeres fast enough for normal cell division 
>(to
>replace worn out cells) but can't keep up - or even goes into reverse - if very 


> rapid
>cell division is encountered (such as in cancer).? Might that work?

The main technical challenges would be coming up with a molecular design 
for?your custom enzyme and then getting it into all the cells of the adult 
human, without disrupting any important housekeeping genes.
?
Since using?protein folding at home, super computers, and other brute force 
methods give limited results on predicting the structure of existing proteins 
from their sequence data, it would be even more of a pain to?design?a 
novel?enzyme to fold and function the way you would like. Especially because you 

would need to figure out how to regulate its function based on the pace of?cell 
division as 

you envision it.

Then, even if you had this fantastic new enzyme, how would you deliver it to?all 


the?10^14?cells in an adult? Most gene therapy vectors can only target a 
single cell type. Now you could transfect your custom enzyme gene?into human 
embryos and create a race of transgenic humans but?that doesn't do your average 
babyboomer any good.
?
Now I am not trying to discourage anyone here, but bioengineering humans to live 


longer is not going to a quick fix. Part of the?problem is that human cells 
evolved to replicate like crazy?in the first?20 or so?years of life allowing for 

a single-celled embryo to become an adult human and then suddenly?cut back?to 
the?considerably slower?levels of cell replication?required for homeostatic 
maintenance for the remaining 60 years.
?
Despite this fact, when high-turnover tissues are considered,?approximately?75% 
of these cell divisions happen?after maturity. So any?intervention to completely 

halt cell division in order to prevent cancer will likely end up being worse 
than the disease.
?
?
Stuart LaForge 

"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower



      



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec  6 06:36:29 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 22:36:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link
	Between	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
	<000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <000701cb950f$ea940b90$bfbc22b0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
.

 

 

. I have pondered these and other explanations, but I find them all less
than satisfactory. I don't like it, but I must reluctantly grant the
reality-as-an-MBrain-sim crowd nearly equal legitimacy with the real
physicists.spike

 

 

It worries me even more when I drop a comment like that one, and no one even
attempts to refute it, wildly or otherwise.  Whaaaat, will I be taking up
with that Terasem outfit next?  Someone please reassure me I really am
crazy.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Dec  6 07:58:16 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:58:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=bmZrwN-hoKcGqbpLmduh6vfoGZooKxeJWuV05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=bmZrwN-hoKcGqbpLmduh6vfoGZooKxeJWuV05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101206075816.GX9434@leitl.org>

On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 07:54:03PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:

> Correction. I was just watching the evening news and it turns out he has not

Always a bad idea.

> been charged nor has a warrant been issued for his arrest. He's been red
> noticed based on the allegations alone.

I'm not sure discussing the person Assange is interesting or
relevant. The reaction to the recent disclosure is much more
interesting, especially in the view of future infrastructure,
now that the press and public pump is primed.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  6 08:06:30 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 00:06:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
Message-ID: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I find it strange that in all this discussion, nobody has brought up the 
fact?that Julian Assange was once a member of this list.?Doesn't anybody else 
remember him? I have old list emails in my inbox from him debating the nature of 
probability with Eliezer, Serafino,?and John Clark. He has also posted on the 
nature of consciousness/identity and Kurzweil. Most of these posts?date from 
2005.

In an age where government is groping into our underpants, I think Julian is a 
courageous hero. He is helping make the transparent society?cut both ways and I 
think that is a noble a calling as any. Why should the government get privacy 
and secrecy, if the people the government exists to serve are not entitled to 
it??I am shocked that you all would?be so apathetic toward one of our own 
becoming one of the most?wanted men on the planet for?no more than giving people 
access to the *truth* about their governments

Stuart LaForge 

"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower .?



      



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Dec  6 11:15:32 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:15:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20101206111532.GZ9434@leitl.org>

On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 12:06:30AM -0800, The Avantguardian wrote:
> I find it strange that in all this discussion, nobody has brought up the 
> fact?that Julian Assange was once a member of this list.?Doesn't anybody else 

Julian has been a member of several lists.

> remember him? I have old list emails in my inbox from him debating the nature of 
> probability with Eliezer, Serafino,?and John Clark. He has also posted on the 
> nature of consciousness/identity and Kurzweil. Most of these posts?date from 
> 2005.

What, is it another half decade already?
 
> In an age where government is groping into our underpants, I think Julian is a 
> courageous hero. He is helping make the transparent society?cut both ways and I 

Don't forget PFC Manning, who's looking forward to an effective life sentence.

> think that is a noble a calling as any. Why should the government get privacy 
> and secrecy, if the people the government exists to serve are not entitled to 
> it??I am shocked that you all would?be so apathetic toward one of our own 

I'm not sure we (who is this "we", kemo sabe?) are apathetic, and that Julian
is "one of our own", whatever that might be.

> becoming one of the most?wanted men on the planet for?no more than giving people 

If he was that, he'd be dead already.

> access to the *truth* about their governments

Information wants to be published in a distributed redundant anonymous uncensorable
cryptographic filesystem. *And* it wants to be read. *And* it wants to be acted upon.
 
> Stuart LaForge 
> 
> "There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
> and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower .?

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  6 13:24:26 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 05:24:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1291636802.1607.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <288000.13198.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

spike the crazy Sim wrote:

> . I have pondered these and other explanations, but I find
> them all less
> than satisfactory. I don't like it, but I must reluctantly
> grant the
> reality-as-an-MBrain-sim crowd nearly equal legitimacy with
> the real
> physicists.spike
>  
> 
> It worries me even more when I drop a comment like that
> one, and no one even
> attempts to refute it, wildly or otherwise.? Whaaaat,
> will I be taking up
> with that Terasem outfit next?? Someone please
> reassure me I really am
> crazy.


While(Tumbleweed.visible)
{
    Tumbleweed.xcoord ++
}


Ben Zaiboc


      



From scerir at alice.it  Mon Dec  6 15:11:33 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:11:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative LinkBetween Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <000701cb950f$ea940b90$bfbc22b0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net><000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>
	<000701cb950f$ea940b90$bfbc22b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <99E0C3FA40534F239A56438C942C63EF@PCserafino>

> I have pondered these and other explanations, but I find them all less
> than satisfactory.
> [snip]
> Someone please reassure me I really am crazy.
> spike

crazy enough?

R.P. Feynman:
.... simulating .... the two-slit ..... plus a little chapter on .... negative 
probabilities ...
http://physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/QM/feynman_ijtp_21_467_82.pdf

R.P. Feynman: "What is the joint probability of finding the particle to go through
hole 1 and be 180? out of phase with hole 2 (whatever that could mean)?".
Experiment done by Scully & Walther: "We note that while each of these probability
distributions may be negative, the physical meaningful constructive and destructive
interference patterns are, however, everywhere positive ...."
http://physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/QM/scully_pra_49_1562_94.pdf 




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec  6 16:10:45 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:10:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 5, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> nobody would ever dream of criticising per se an effort "to provide well-controlled demonstrations of proton decay"

Bullshit. The goal should be to find if proton decay exists, not to prove that it does. If you start out with the absolute certainty that proton decay exists then your only task is to find a formal proof of it so you can convince others. If you don't find proton decay in your experiments and its a metaphysical certitude that its there then the only logical conclusion is that there must be something wrong with the experiment, so you keep changing it until you find something that corresponds with your prejudice and makes you happy. That is not the way to do science but as I've said before if you want to find something that doesn't exist then a crappy experimenter will be much more successful than a good one. 

> crappyMost discoveries originate anyway from experimental attempts, including failed attempts, to demonstrate a given hypothesis the experimenter is interested in.

In any field of physics, except for psi and cold fusion, this is the way things go:
Somebody has an idea, they try some experiments, the new idea does not jive with the results of the experiment, the physicists sighs but accepts the bad news and moves on to new ideas and new experiments.

But with psi and cold fusion there is such a enormously powerful visceral wish for it to be true that the true believers simply refuse to take "no" as an answer, so they demand that it be tested again, and again, and again, and again. In the case of psi this has been going on for CENTURIES, it's time to stop this ridiculous situation and say enough is enough. 

  John K Clark    

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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec  6 16:25:30 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:25:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between
	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
	<000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <0B730DA7-EB92-4C38-AB00-1731CB478E02@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:35 PM, spike wrote:

>  It is no more outlandish to say that quantum mechanics observations are an artifact of the limits of computation presented by the MBrain in which we are being simulated. 

And the singularity at the center of a black hole might be a syntax error, or where god tried to divide by zero.

 John K Clark

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec  6 16:37:50 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:37:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks

>...I find it strange that in all this discussion, nobody has brought up the
fact?that Julian Assange was once a member of this list.?Doesn't anybody
else remember him?...

Huh.  That's cool, no I don't remember him at all.

>...?I am shocked that you all would?be so apathetic toward one of our own
becoming one of the most?wanted men on the planet for?no more than giving
people access to the *truth* about their governments...Stuart LaForge 

I mighta missed it in all the noise, but I never heard he was wanted for
spilling secrets.  Has any nation actually issued an arrest warrant for
that?  I heard he was wanted in one of the Islamic countries (Sweden?) for
sexual assault, but not for leaking classified info.  The info he put on his
site would actually be more properly called "sensitive" rather than secret
or classified, however CNN said there was classified info in there.  If so,
then whoever's name is on those documents as sender is in waaay big trouble
for putting classified info on an unsecured link.

Recall right after 9/11/2001, one of our regulars posted a whole bunch of
stuff he later deeply regretted, then asked if it could be removed from the
archives.  We eventually figured out it really couldn't be done, not because
we were unwilling but rather because it had been quoted numerous times and
it was pretty much impossible to find it all.  So we came up with an idea:
cross post a bunch of stuff with each other's names on them, trying to
imitate the style of the other person and so forth.  We had fun with it.  I
got a huge laugh out of reading stuff that others wrote trying to imitate my
thoughts.  In the end game, what that did was allow perfect deniability for
anything in the archives.

What occurred to me is that Assange or anyone could insert anything they
wanted into Wikileaks, and make it look like it was written by anyone.  So
anything that is found in there carries deniability.  So it isn't even worth
the time to dig through Wikileaks, because we can't distinguish the genuine
from the counterfeit there any better than we can here.

spike










From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  6 17:39:22 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 10:39:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikW0gTtXrd2iHEP9zgAAd6T6Zdy00HmAp9E6EJy@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:06 AM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
                    <snip>

> In an age where government is groping into our underpants, I think Julian is a
> courageous hero.

Big time.

> He is helping make the transparent society?cut both ways and I
> think that is as noble a calling as any.

David Brin's prediction is coming into being even as we speak.

> Why should the government get privacy
> and secrecy, if the people the government exists to serve are not entitled to
> it?

Why, indeed?  The govt is being dragged into the future kicking and
screaming in protest.  Government resistance to its loss of
power/control is to be expected.  The rise of openness and the
increasing power of the new cyber-citizen -- ie cultural evolution in
the internet age --no matter that it is utilitarian or right or
inevitable is still the greatest  of all horrors to the "ruling
elite".   I didn't see this fight coming -- because I didn't think
about it -- but I should have.  The future, however, has the upper
hand (or so I think and hope.  We shall see.)

> I am shocked that you all would?be so apathetic toward one of our own

"One of our own" is tribalist  phrasing, slightly off-putting to me,
and ineffective (for me).  Seeking to garner support in the struggle
for  transparency?,  permit me to rephrase:

"I am shocked that you would be apathetic toward so robust a battle
for the advancement of transhumanist values."

To which I respond, "Who you callin' apathetic there, Stuart?" ;-}

Seemingly apathetic, perhaps, but not actually.  I for one am
transfixed, captivated, and thrilled.  The squealing of the government
minions, and the protest of their quisling enablers, is music to this
boy's ears.  The drama too, is exquisite.  Assange is a cross between
Bill Gates, Robin Hood, and Tom Paine.  Bradley Manning seems the new
Nathan Hale.  Another metaphor from the American Revolution could
paint the pro-Wikileaks forces as latter day Minutemen, and the
ossified old guard with their kool-aid necromonger legions as the
Tories.

In short Stuart, I have been waiting for the list to take up the
matter.  Till then, let us not speak of apathy.

Best, Jeff Davis

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at
you, then they fight you, then you win."

                     Mahatma Gandhi


> "There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence,
> and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower .
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Dec  6 18:29:09 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:29:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:06 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> I find it strange that in all this discussion, nobody has brought up the 
> fact that Julian Assange was once a member of this list. Doesn't anybody else 
> remember him? I have old list emails in my inbox from him debating the nature of 
> probability with Eliezer, Serafino, and John Clark. He has also posted on the 
> nature of consciousness/identity and Kurzweil. Most of these posts date from 
> 2005.

The name didn't ring a bell but when I looked deep into the bowels of my computer I find you are correct; the oldest message from him to this list that I can find was on August 16 1999.

 John K Clark   
> 

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec  6 18:53:26 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 10:53:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <004b01cb9576$de0f3810$9a2da830$@att.net>

...

>...?I am shocked that you all would?be so apathetic toward one of our own
becoming one of the most?wanted men on the planet for?no more than giving
people access to the *truth* about their governments...Stuart LaForge 


But hoooow do we know it is *the truth* about their governments?  It came
from unsecured links (this we know because it was downloaded by a junior
person with a flash drive) so I can imagine tons of decoys, Trojan horses,
booby traps and e-trackers in that "truth." PFC Manning could have been
fooled into leaking bogus info, which Assange merely passed along, which
could then phone home and be used to net jillions of amateur terrorists.

spike



 





From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec  6 19:07:04 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:07:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link
	Between	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <0B730DA7-EB92-4C38-AB00-1731CB478E02@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>	<000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>
	<0B730DA7-EB92-4C38-AB00-1731CB478E02@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <004c01cb9578$c58da680$50a8f380$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: Re: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
Non-Locality and Uncertainty.

 

On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:35 PM, spike wrote:





 It is no more outlandish to say that quantum mechanics observations are an
artifact of the limits of computation presented by the MBrain in which we
are being simulated. 

 

And the singularity at the center of a black hole might be a syntax error,
or where god tried to divide by zero.John K Clark

 

 

 

Ah yes, but of course dividing by zero is not necessarily a syntax error, if
god multiplies the result by zero.  The result might be infinite, or it
might be zero, or any finite between those two.  That is how we know god is
a bastard, for inventing such a system.  

 

Furthermore, how can god be sure the singularity is at the *center* of the
black hole?  If the black hole is being orbited by a massive body outside
the event horizon, then the event horizon does not form a sphere, but rather
an ellipsoid, with the singularity not at the center but rather at one of
the foci.  If god went inside that event horizon to find out, even he
couldn't get back out.

 

John thanks for putting up an objection however.  I don't like the idea of
QM as an artifact of computation limits any more than you do.

 

spike

 

 

 

   

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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec  6 19:47:09 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 13:47:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CFD3DBD.7000902@satx.rr.com>

On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:06 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> I find it strange that in all this discussion, nobody has brought up the
> fact that Julian Assange was once a member of this list. Doesn't 
> anybody else
> remember him?
Also posting, his brother, Daniel Assange, I assume (then studying at 
Melbourne University).
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Dec  6 19:59:16 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:59:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <004b01cb9576$de0f3810$9a2da830$@att.net>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<004b01cb9576$de0f3810$9a2da830$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4CFD4094.8060802@aleph.se>

On 06/12/2010 18:53, spike wrote:
> But hoooow do we know it is *the truth* about their governments?  It came
> from unsecured links (this we know because it was downloaded by a junior
> person with a flash drive) so I can imagine tons of decoys, Trojan horses,
> booby traps and e-trackers in that "truth." PFC Manning could have been
> fooled into leaking bogus info, which Assange merely passed along, which
> could then phone home and be used to net jillions of amateur terrorists.

(Hi there!)

That would have been a neat trick. However, given the fallout in 
diplomatic circles ("Nobody wants to talk to us anymore" as one senior 
diplomat apparently complained) and across a vast number of national 
interests (everything from copyright treaties over trade deals to the 
relationship to various nations) it would be a very costly strategy. 
Maybe that is just to make it more plausible, but so far there has not 
been anything in the leak that seems so enticing that it would net any 
terrorists worth the rest of the trouble.

Of course, maybe the real source was some intelligence agency that was 
uninterested in that it messed up things for nearly all other 
foreign-oriented parts of the government... in which case Heads Will 
Roll when that comes to light internally.

The trouble with conspiracy theory is that it assumes people are really 
competent and know what they are doing.

(According to my contacts in relevant Swedish networks, the sex 
accusations against Assange are likely less of a devious set-up and more 
of a collision of a number of people with bad judgement. Any court case 
will be sleazy and embarassing for anybody involved, the Swedish court 
included.)

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec  6 20:23:12 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:23:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <004b01cb9576$de0f3810$9a2da830$@att.net>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<004b01cb9576$de0f3810$9a2da830$@att.net>
Message-ID: <006901cb9583$685e3550$391a9ff0$@att.net>


... But hoooow do we know it is *the truth* about their governments?...
spike


Do let us go back to the early 90s.  How many here remember when Microsloth
first introduced macros in excel?  They called it VBA then, about in the
spring of 1994.  Before that, one could use Microsloth BASIC to write a
proto-macro, but it was clumsy as all get out.  I was doing that back in
those days, mostly to have software extract data from Excel tables, before
Excel had the embedded VLOOKUP and HLOOKUP functions.  This is what I did
for fun back before I had actual adult responsibilities.

When Excel 5 hit the streets, it was a breakthrough because it functionally
embedded BASIC into a spreadsheet and made them play together so that Excel
went from being a toy to an extremely powerful engineering tool.  After
spring 1994, it was clear Microsloth had won the spreadsheet competition; we
put away all the other spreadsheets (some excellent ones, such as Wingz) and
invested all our efforts towards mastering Excel, which eventually caused
Microsloth to win the word processor competition and the biz presentation
competition.  Today most office people use Excel, Word and PowerPoint.

The first macro language VBA had no safety rails.  It would do exactly what
you told it, so it was possible to create viruses even accidentally (spoken
by one who did exactly that.)  You could rename files, open and rearrange
files without renaming (effectively wrecking the file), whatever you wanted.
You could use VBA to generate, name and save documents, open applications,
such as Outlook, and email files to anyone.  No trigger safety on that gun.
Excel 5 was a powerful but dangerous device.  Later versions defeated those
features.

I was given and still have a copy of Excel 5, still in the original shrink
wrap, with the authentication codes and all, so I could theoretically load
that on my computer.  I still know how to program in VBA, having written
*plenty* of code in that format.  

The Wikileaks discussion caused me to realize we could use Excel 5 to create
a crimebot.  We have freedom of speech, but it is considered a crime to
write threatening comments and post them to a public forum.  But one could
write code that randomly generates threatening email to a randomly chosen
politician for instance, and it would be so simple that even *I* could write
it:  "I don't like the policies of {insert random party} and so I will go
harm or severely kill {insert randomly chosen politician} forthwith, signed
{randomly chosen poster}."  So one could make a crimebot.

The same tool could be used to obscure one's internet past, an excel 5 based
camo-bot.  It could randomly generate emails that kinda look like your own
(again a task that even I could write) and then archives would all have
complete deniability.  This deniability is made even stronger by the fact
that excel 5 was so obedient that it really would do *anything* you ask, to
the point of introducing danger of accidentally making a virus merely by
forgetting to hit the "stop recording" button.  Hey I did it.  Ended up
sending copies of my to-dos and grocery lists to my own boss and his boss
for three weeks, every time I hit CTRL S.  Fortunately, they had a sense of
humor about it, thought it was funny.

I discovered this accidentally, so it must have been recognized by others a
long time ago.  I can easily imagine that there is some kind of software
tool in use that generates bogus email to camouflage sensitive info on
intranets like the one Assange is publishing.  So anything on Wikileaks has
deniability, and anything in the ExI-chat archives has deniability.
Anything in there could have been generated by software.

I still have a fresh copy of Excel 5, and I know how to use it.
(Bwaaaahahahahahaaaaaa...)

spike



  




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec  6 21:20:12 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:20:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <440393.59678.qm@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <440393.59678.qm@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CFD538C.7010209@satx.rr.com>

On 12/5/2010 10:49 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> When I first read this, I thought it was very naive. So I looked up a detailed
> description of his strategy here:
>
> http://www.sens.org/files/pdf/WILT.pdf
>
> My objections to it follow:

<snipped>

Aubrey replies:

"Stuart's questions/concerns are very sensible. I have somewhat answered 
them in my Frontiers in Bioscience paper (a followup to the one Stuart 
has read) and in the chapter in the recent book that [Dr. Steven Coles] 
co-edited, but I will provide specific answers to these questions here 
too. I am very busy and/or travelling for the next two days... I'll post 
my reply as soon as possible."


From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  6 22:00:42 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 17:00:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <006901cb9583$685e3550$391a9ff0$@att.net>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<004b01cb9576$de0f3810$9a2da830$@att.net>
	<006901cb9583$685e3550$391a9ff0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin2xbP+ZTTox+w0M-OViCm=co05hR+m7vaocjYS@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 3:23 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I still have a fresh copy of Excel 5, and I know how to use it.
> (Bwaaaahahahahahaaaaaa...)
>

So what's next, countermeasures written in qbasic?  dos .bat files?

If you're going to threaten the world with computer supervirii - you
need to exploit Flash

Or maybe figure out an Apple virus - because, like the Inquisition,
nobody expects an Apple virus...


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Dec  6 21:02:55 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:02:55 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <4CFD3DBD.7000902@satx.rr.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4CFD3DBD.7000902@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin1DxygEOJqQQAO1-BWpnAGyRk12zMZmpbFgbC8@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/7 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:06 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:
>
>> I find it strange that in all this discussion, nobody has brought up the
>> fact that Julian Assange was once a member of this list. Doesn't anybody
>> else
>> remember him?
>
> Also posting, his brother, Daniel Assange, I assume (then studying at
> Melbourne University).

Or his son?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/my_wiki_dad_just_awful_with_the_lPuc6BTUKeNNMwZLeUTFJK


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  6 21:38:30 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:38:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Reminds me of that saying about "six degrees of separation."

By the way, another interesting story related to this:

http://reason.com/blog/2010/12/03/leaker-calls-on-leaker-to-leak

Regards,

Dan


From: John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 1:29:09 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.


On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:06 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:

I find it strange that in all this discussion, nobody has brought up the 
>fact?that Julian Assange was once a member of this list.?Doesn't anybody else 
>remember him? I have old list emails in my inbox from him debating the nature of 
>
>probability with Eliezer, Serafino,?and John Clark. He has also posted on the 
>nature of consciousness/identity and Kurzweil. Most of these posts?date from 
>2005.
>
The name didn't ring a bell but when I looked deep into the bowels of my 
computer I find you are correct; the oldest message from him to this list that I 
can find was on August 16 1999.

?John K Clark ??


>



      
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  6 21:47:48 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:47:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <004c01cb9578$c58da680$50a8f380$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
	<000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net>
	<0B730DA7-EB92-4C38-AB00-1731CB478E02@bellsouth.net>
	<004c01cb9578$c58da680$50a8f380$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinu1jKsuia3SY8o1ki4Bx0fiwZg8JPQ_9PPLD_E@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/6 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
> John thanks for putting up an objection however.? I don?t like the idea of
> QM as an artifact of computation limits any more than you do.
>

QM as artifact of incomplete model?

Black & White TV was good enough until the world turned color in
1946... then we suffered with Standard Definition for a long time
before HD was realized.  Maybe someday QM will be obsolete as B&W TV?



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec  6 22:58:00 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 16:58:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin1DxygEOJqQQAO1-BWpnAGyRk12zMZmpbFgbC8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<4CFD3DBD.7000902@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin1DxygEOJqQQAO1-BWpnAGyRk12zMZmpbFgbC8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFD6A78.5010507@satx.rr.com>

On 12/6/2010 3:02 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>> Also posting, his brother, Daniel Assange, I assume (then studying at
>> >  Melbourne University).
>
> Or his son?
>
> http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/my_wiki_dad_just_awful_with_the_lPuc6BTUKeNNMwZLeUTFJK

Ah, right. So Daniel was 15 when he was posting here. I see he makes 
these comments under that New York Post story:

<08/27/2010 9:18 AM

My comments were very much tongue-in-cheek and not intended as serious 
character assessment (nor indeed to be made public in this manner). I 
have a great deal of respect for my father and his work, and no doubt 
that the accusations against him have no basis in reality. This is 
another piece of sensationalistic idiocy from the NYP.

- Daniel.>

<somnidea

08/27/2010 9:28 AM

Also, here's a hint: If you want to look credible, do try to get your 
basic facts straight. I'm twenty, not twenty-one, and haven't been a UoM 
student since the end of last year.

- Daniel.>

Damien Broderick



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec  6 23:30:14 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 00:30:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/6 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> Bullshit. The goal should be to find if proton decay exists, not to prove
> that it does. If you start out with the absolute certainty that proton decay
> exists then your only task is to find a formal proof of it so you can
> convince others. If you don't find proton decay in your experiments and its
> a metaphysical certitude that its there then the only logical conclusion is
> that there must be something wrong with the experiment, so you keep changing
> it until you find something that corresponds with your prejudice and makes
> you happy. That is not the way to do science but as I've said before if you
> want to find something that doesn't exist then a crappy experimenter will be
> much more successful than a good one.
>

This sounds very naive. The usual way of doing science is to pick a
hypothesis, because you have dreamt of it, or satisfy your aesthetical
sense, or simply is yours and nobody ever thought about it, and try to
confirm it.. If you have a metaphysical certitude you do not need to embark
in experiments at all. On the other hand, recent history of science is full
of more or less friendly rivalries, school partisans, and even
not-so-jocular bets. What's the big deal?

The trial system, e.g., works at its best when both parties' advocates are
competent and skilled and motivated, and do everything within a given set of
rules and on a level playing field to win their cases. Not when they are
supposed to try and reach an unlikely olympic indifference as to the outcome
of their debate.

But with psi and cold fusion there is such a enormously powerful visceral
> wish for it to be true that the true believers simply refuse to take "no" as
> an answer, so they demand that it be tested again, and again, and again, and
> again. In the case of psi this has been going on for CENTURIES, it's time to
> stop this ridiculous situation and say enough is enough.
>

This is an interesting sociological remark, but of little epistemological
relevance. One could reasonably object that limited public or private
fundings should not be wasted in pursuing human flight when past experience
did not make the idea especially plausible in spite of the obsession of a
few with the subject, but the psychological grounds of the latter did not
really tell us anything as to the merits or not of the research concerned.

But if something does not exist, no matter how much money and energy and
emotion and iterations are invested in searching it, the conclusion would
not change a iota, and a critical approach to experimental results showing
otherwise might even teach as something. On methodologies or statistics, if
anything.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec  7 00:58:35 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:58:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>

On 12/6/2010 5:30 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

[John K Clark:]
>     Bullshit. The goal should be to find if proton decay exists, not to
>     prove that it does. If you start out with the absolute certainty
>     that proton decay exists then your only task is to find a formal
>     proof of it so you can convince others. If you don't find proton
>     decay in your experiments and its a metaphysical certitude that its
>     there then the only logical conclusion is that there must be
>     something wrong with the experiment, so you keep changing it until
>     you find something that corresponds with your prejudice and makes
>     you happy. That is not the way to do science but as I've said before
>     if you want to find something that doesn't exist then a crappy
>     experimenter will be much more successful than a good one.

> This sounds very naive.

John is surprisingly naive about science. I suspect that this is because 
he's an engineer, trained to apply what is known to be the case, to get 
the job done.

> The usual way of doing science is to pick a
> hypothesis, because you have dreamt of it, or satisfy your aesthetical
> sense, or simply is yours and nobody ever thought about it, and try to
> confirm it.

Well, confirming doesn't work either, as Popper showed. I'm enough of a 
falsificationist to think that what you should try to do is find a bunch 
of ways to disconfirm your idea, test them, and if your good guess 
doesn't get disconfirmed accept it (provisionally) until you or someone 
else comes up with a better, more comprehensive, more powerful idea that 
doesn't also *unexplain* findings already pretty well corroborated by 
earlier experiments.

What's interesting about John's approach to Professor Bem's recent work 
is that he adamantly refuses to take issue with Bem's careful reply to 
his critic Alcock, but is happy to accept Alcock's botched criticism *ex 
cathedra*. Why is this? It's because...

If you start out with the absolute certainty that psi does not exist 
then your only task is to deny its existence, hoping you can convince 
others without either evidence or formal proof. If someone finds psi in 
experiments but you have a metaphysical certainty that it's not there 
then the only logical conclusion is that there must be something wrong 
with the experiment, so you keep looking for ever more absurd loopholes 
and objections until you contrive something that corresponds with your 
prejudice and makes you happy.

Damien Broderick


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 05:29:37 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 00:29:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
 Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=-83_aij5WopLNL=ygzJ7dhJ-vsJvEJ1Jtzuj2@mail.gmail.com>

Just for the record, I am completely boggled by the Copenhagen
interpretation - it appears to be such absolute nonsense that I can't
understand why it was proposed in the first place, why it was
accepted, and why only 50% of physicists have so far have rejected it.
One thing I don't understand about many worlds which so cleanly
explains the double slit experiment is why it triggers an emotional
rejection reaction in so many people.

Eliezer provided a very fine explication of the Copenhagen-Multiverse
issue on Overcoming Bias a couple of years ago. Highly recommended.

Rafal


From agrimes at speakeasy.net  Tue Dec  7 06:49:58 2010
From: agrimes at speakeasy.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 01:49:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The tyranny of context free grammars.
Message-ID: <4CFDD916.5080902@speakeasy.net>

om.

While I should be sleeping right now, I was thinking about my extensive
library of books and was inspired to break character and write an
inspirational piece about some transhumanist research that can be done
by anyone with little or no equipment.

Most of my books on computer science present context free grammars as
the one and only way to program computers. It is true that languages
such as Perl do have some context sensitivity but that doesn't disprove
the point. The point is that all of computer programming and compiler
design is nested in the ontology of the Chomsky Heirarchy. The reason
for this is that Chomsky grammars provably solve the problem of
describing and classifying computations so why not simply teach that and
then move on to programming them?

Because it is a difficult problem, there seems to be only one widely
known solution. While it is possible to prove that it solves the problem
of describing computations, I seriously doubt that it is either a unique
or optimal solution.

In my 6-core phenom machine, I have, lets say, four ALUs per core, so if
given an optimal workload, I can compute a maximum of

64 * 4 * 6 * 3.2 = 4.9 trillion bit operations per second, absolute
maximum under optimal conditions. But the more interesting thing is that
I only have 1536 bits of general purpose computing in my late model
machine. (there are some other computational circuits devoted to
managing the instruction stream and accessing memory that are not
general purpose).

When contemplating (om) an optimal computational substrate in what we
believe to be the 3D nature of our real world, we are lead to an
architecture that resembles the human brain in many respects. The gray
mater would be a 3D cellular automata architecture. Then, in order to
maximize bandwidth between distant nodes, a substantial portion of the
available volume would consist of communication channels of some sort so
that distant parts of the network could communicate at low latency. Each
cell would be comparable in size to 3 or 4 cache cells on a processor of
a similar process technology, so my 9 megs of cache would equate to
roughly two or three MILLION computational units ( as opposed to the
number just over 1,500 given above).

What we lack, of course, is a good way to design and program these CAM
cells so that they can be used for high performance computing. Some
basic work has been done with Conway's game of life. Reportedly, there
have been implementations of turing machines in the form of gliders and
other structures in the CAM matrix.

What is really needed is a serious re-evaluation of everything the
textbooks say we know for certain about computer science to achieve the
conceptual breakthrough required to really master this type of programming.

I would consider this important basic research and the tools required to
carry it out are already in front of you.

om

-- 
DO NOT USE OBAMACARE.
DO NOT BUY OBAMACARE.
Powers are not rights.



From scerir at alice.it  Tue Dec  7 07:40:27 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:40:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinu1jKsuia3SY8o1ki4Bx0fiwZg8JPQ_9PPLD_E@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com><7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net><000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net><AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com><003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net><005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net><AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com><4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com><AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com><4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com><7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net><000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net><0B730DA7-EB92-4C38-AB00-1731CB478E02@bellsouth.net><004c01cb9578$c58da680$50a8f380$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinu1jKsuia3SY8o1ki4Bx0fiwZg8JPQ_9PPLD_E@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F792D32B775F4E8C93E6FF758AAC1012@PCserafino>

Mike:
> QM as artifact of incomplete model?

QM as an incomplete theory!

New qm-theories are on the stage, in example:
the Time-Symmetric Formulation, by Aharonov et al.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.1232v1.pdf
(a shorter, much more readable paper is available, but not online,
I can send it to anyone interested.)
s.


"This statistical interpretation is now universally
accepted as the best possible interpretation
for quantum mechanics, even though many people are
unhappy with it. People had got used to the determinism
of the last century, where the present determines the future
completely, and they now have to get used to a different
situation in which the present only gives one information
of a statistical nature about the future. A good many people
find this unpleasant; Einstein has always objected to it.
The way he expressed it was: 'The good God does not play
with dice'. Schroedinger also did not like the statistical
interpretation and tried for many years to find an interpretation
involving determinism for his waves. But it was not successful
as a general method. I must say that I also do not like indeterminism.
I have to accept it because it is certainly the best that we can do
with our present knowledge. One can always hope that there will be
future developments which will lead to a drastically different
theory from the present quantum mechanics and for which there
may be a partial return of determinism. However, so long as
one keeps to the present formalism, one has to have this
indeterminism."
- P.A.M. Dirac, 'The Development Of Quantum Mechanics',
Conferenza Tenuta il 14 Aprile 1972, Roma,
Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, 1974.





From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 07:25:25 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:25:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The tyranny of context free grammars.
In-Reply-To: <4CFDD916.5080902@speakeasy.net>
References: <4CFDD916.5080902@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTincTgysPTtAZ2EnVKq7zKq96OpCfRJaQ+yzBg-p@mail.gmail.com>

Having known a few compiler writers, they seem to resoundingly come
down against LALR parsers for implementing CFGs.

Alternatives to CFGs maybe might be nice, but to what end?  The
advantage of the CFG is it's simplicity in both usage and development
(compiler side).  I'd be careful about pining for more languages like
perl, you have obviously never maintained significant systems written
in perl.  To be avoided if at all possible.

I'd also like to leave you with this gem by the (in)famous Dijkstra:
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EWD667.html

"On the foolishness of "natural language programming"."

-ryan


On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Alan Grimes <agrimes at speakeasy.net> wrote:
> om.
>
> While I should be sleeping right now, I was thinking about my extensive
> library of books and was inspired to break character and write an
> inspirational piece about some transhumanist research that can be done
> by anyone with little or no equipment.
>
> Most of my books on computer science present context free grammars as
> the one and only way to program computers. It is true that languages
> such as Perl do have some context sensitivity but that doesn't disprove
> the point. The point is that all of computer programming and compiler
> design is nested in the ontology of the Chomsky Heirarchy. The reason
> for this is that Chomsky grammars provably solve the problem of
> describing and classifying computations so why not simply teach that and
> then move on to programming them?
>
> Because it is a difficult problem, there seems to be only one widely
> known solution. While it is possible to prove that it solves the problem
> of describing computations, I seriously doubt that it is either a unique
> or optimal solution.
>
> In my 6-core phenom machine, I have, lets say, four ALUs per core, so if
> given an optimal workload, I can compute a maximum of
>
> 64 * 4 * 6 * 3.2 = 4.9 trillion bit operations per second, absolute
> maximum under optimal conditions. But the more interesting thing is that
> I only have 1536 bits of general purpose computing in my late model
> machine. (there are some other computational circuits devoted to
> managing the instruction stream and accessing memory that are not
> general purpose).
>
> When contemplating (om) an optimal computational substrate in what we
> believe to be the 3D nature of our real world, we are lead to an
> architecture that resembles the human brain in many respects. The gray
> mater would be a 3D cellular automata architecture. Then, in order to
> maximize bandwidth between distant nodes, a substantial portion of the
> available volume would consist of communication channels of some sort so
> that distant parts of the network could communicate at low latency. Each
> cell would be comparable in size to 3 or 4 cache cells on a processor of
> a similar process technology, so my 9 megs of cache would equate to
> roughly two or three MILLION computational units ( as opposed to the
> number just over 1,500 given above).
>
> What we lack, of course, is a good way to design and program these CAM
> cells so that they can be used for high performance computing. Some
> basic work has been done with Conway's game of life. Reportedly, there
> have been implementations of turing machines in the form of gliders and
> other structures in the CAM matrix.
>
> What is really needed is a serious re-evaluation of everything the
> textbooks say we know for certain about computer science to achieve the
> conceptual breakthrough required to really master this type of programming.
>
> I would consider this important basic research and the tools required to
> carry it out are already in front of you.
>
> om
>
> --
> DO NOT USE OBAMACARE.
> DO NOT BUY OBAMACARE.
> Powers are not rights.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 08:10:49 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:10:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimjEojkZ7i1tkm2O24D1gKiZpo7sZ-umQiwsMmo@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Damien Broderick  wrote:
> What's interesting about John's approach to Professor Bem's recent work is
> that he adamantly refuses to take issue with Bem's careful reply to his
> critic Alcock, but is happy to accept Alcock's botched criticism *ex
> cathedra*. Why is this? It's because...
>
> If you start out with the absolute certainty that psi does not exist then
> your only task is to deny its existence, hoping you can convince others
> without either evidence or formal proof. If someone finds psi in experiments
> but you have a metaphysical certainty that it's not there then the only
> logical conclusion is that there must be something wrong with the
> experiment, so you keep looking for ever more absurd loopholes and
> objections until you contrive something that corresponds with your prejudice
> and makes you happy.
>
>


The problem for skeptics (as you well know when you are not
propagandizing psi) is that these experiments don't demonstrate psi
effects.

They demonstrate a very small statisical oddity which could have many
much more ordinary causes. Even if you allow more extraordinary
causes, there is still no reason to make a preference for psi, rather
than other woo-woo. Any of them 'might' be the cause.


BillK


From scerir at alice.it  Tue Dec  7 11:27:03 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:27:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=-83_aij5WopLNL=ygzJ7dhJ-vsJvEJ1Jtzuj2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com><7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net><000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net><AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com><003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net><005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net><AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com><4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com><AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com><4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com><7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTi=-83_aij5WopLNL=ygzJ7dhJ-vsJvEJ1Jtzuj2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02A84D32E23F4B0B86692799622FFF7D@PCserafino>

Rafal:
> One thing I don't understand about many worlds which so cleanly
> explains the double slit experiment is why it triggers an emotional
> rejection reaction in so many people.

There are many different MWI ("many worlds", "many minds", etc.), So, to grasp 
the true meaning of it, we must fix which sub-interpretation we are talking about.

"It is better to think of parts of the universe as splitting. As Everett once said
(roughly), if a mouse observes the universe, the mouse, not the universe, is changed.
I would say, if a human mind observes the universe, the mind, not the universe, 
is split."
- Frank J. Tipler (2002)

"Many worlds" appears to be a realistic interpretation, in the sense
that there are "many" real "worlds", created - somehow - during a
"measurement" (whatever "measurement" means). But "world" is
a classical term, not a quantish term, so we must use a special
sound judgment here.

And also there are difficulties with conservation principles ....
(It seems that conservation principles should be re-formulated.)

"Now, there isn't really a story to tell about what the total energy in individual
universes is during that whole process. Because the universes are not autonomous during
it. But one thing's for sure, there is no way of construing it so that the energy in each
particular universe is conserved, for the simple reason that the whole system starts out
the same on each run of the experiment (before the non-sharp state is created), and ends
up different".
- David Deutsch

"In more general cases, where there are superpositions of states of different energy,
energy can increase in one universe at the cost of decreasing in another." 
- David Deutsch








From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 12:40:02 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:40:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 December 2010 17:37, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> I mighta missed it in all the noise, but I never heard he was wanted for
> spilling secrets.  Has any nation actually issued an arrest warrant for
> that?  I heard he was wanted in one of the Islamic countries (Sweden?) for
> sexual assault, but not for leaking classified info.
>

Why, I would say that the important thing to the US, both in terms of damage
control and of deterrence of such initiatives, is to get him framed, if
possible by a non-US law enforcement agency, wouldn't it?

Moreover, sex assault charges as bogus as they may be in fact and in
principle ("My consent was not free, as I was not informed at the time of
the intercourse that he was sleeping as well with my best friend...") do not
offer the kind of martyrdom amplification that espionnage charges,
kidnapping or assassination may involve; and imply as well a welcome stigma
on the target.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 12:54:31 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:54:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>

Stefano wrote:

>Moreover, sex assault charges as bogus as they may be in fact and in
principle ("My consent was not free, as I was not informed at the time of
the intercourse that he was sleeping as well with my best friend...") do not
offer the kind of martyrdom amplification that espionnage charges,
kidnapping or assassination may involve; and imply as well a welcome stigma
on the target.<


He was arrested this morning in the U.K. Even my father, not exactly a
political radical, laughed at how transparent the timing. I agree with
Stefano -- the charges are perfect in terms of stigmatizing him. Who cares
if he's a champion of free speech or freedom of information or a new
transparency? The important thing is he's a pervert, so nothing he does or
says can be taken seriously. And sexual assault charges have an
added benefit -- those with such charges against them are almost always
viewed as guilty by the majority whether proven innocent in court or not.
Michael Jackson is a good example.

Darren

2010/12/7 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>

> On 6 December 2010 17:37, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> I mighta missed it in all the noise, but I never heard he was wanted for
>> spilling secrets.  Has any nation actually issued an arrest warrant for
>> that?  I heard he was wanted in one of the Islamic countries (Sweden?) for
>> sexual assault, but not for leaking classified info.
>>
>
> Why, I would say that the important thing to the US, both in terms of
> damage control and of deterrence of such initiatives, is to get him framed,
> if possible by a non-US law enforcement agency, wouldn't it?
>
> Moreover, sex assault charges as bogus as they may be in fact and in
> principle ("My consent was not free, as I was not informed at the time of
> the intercourse that he was sleeping as well with my best friend...") do not
> offer the kind of martyrdom amplification that espionnage charges,
> kidnapping or assassination may involve; and imply as well a welcome stigma
> on the target.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Dec  7 13:14:57 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 14:14:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 08:54:31AM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:

> He was arrested this morning in the U.K. Even my father, not exactly a
> political radical, laughed at how transparent the timing. I agree with

If a travesty of justice is sufficiently transparent, it will backfire.

Right now quite a few newly realize that they're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

> Stefano -- the charges are perfect in terms of stigmatizing him. Who cares
> if he's a champion of free speech or freedom of information or a new

The person is not important, the press waking up to the possibility of
using the Internet as an anonymous, uncensorable informant platform is.
That this is decades-old-hat to the digerati is irrelevant, critical
threshold in public perception (not that this worth so much) is.

Once this pump is primed there will be successor platforms. Run by 
anonymous volunteers, on their own budget, with no drama but also
no way to shut it all down.

John Young deliberately staid out of the limelight with the Cryptome,
which never reached that threshold. Now we will see how much appetite
for disclosure the general public really has -- oh, a bright and shiny 
object! Dude... wait... what?

> transparency? The important thing is he's a pervert, so nothing he does or
> says can be taken seriously. And sexual assault charges have an
> added benefit -- those with such charges against them are almost always
> viewed as guilty by the majority whether proven innocent in court or not.
> Michael Jackson is a good example.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 13:49:46 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:49:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>

Eugen wrote:

>The person is not important,

The person is very important, because how he and others involved are dealt
with will determine the level of risk others are willing to take to
accomplish similar ventures in future. I'd say the press is more focussed on
Assange than the content of the leaks precisely because they understand
this.

>the press waking up to the possibility of using the Internet as an
anonymous, uncensorable informant platform is.<

If you're a decent journalist, you probably already know this. What you
don't know is if a government is unable to censor the information, how
effective will it be in censoring the person or persons responsible for
leaking it? Because as you know, *nothing* is anonymous on the Internet.
That's the great irony of our age. An unfathomable sea of information, with
your signature on every molecule of data you contribute, if someone is
determined and technically equipped and proficient enough to look for it.

Darren
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 14:02:26 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:02:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLUs+8iDg4sFJK4oB4ZzXqmPgZEGXUz0ofp4oR@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2010 14:14, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> > He was arrested this morning in the U.K. Even my father, not exactly a
> > political radical, laughed at how transparent the timing. I agree with
>
> If a travesty of justice is sufficiently transparent, it will backfire.
>

To an extent. The political costs of overt censorship or assassination is
usually even higher. ;-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 14:14:10 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:14:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimON5JOMtpkm72Ov53w0kgncpD885oud2yTSL9i@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2010 01:58, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> Well, confirming doesn't work either, as Popper showed. I'm enough of a
> falsificationist to think that what you should try to do is find a bunch of
> ways to disconfirm your idea, test them, and if your good guess doesn't get
> disconfirmed accept it (provisionally) until you or someone else comes up
> with a better, more comprehensive, more powerful idea that doesn't also
> *unexplain* findings already pretty well corroborated by earlier
> experiments.
>

Yes, this is in fact more accurate. And in any event I think any science
involves some inevitable Occam-razor's assumption.

In this respect, the real debate is what may be the most economical
explanations for "psi" phenomena.

If I have to suppose that some angels from dimension X jumped out of a time
machine to falsify the data, telepathy sounds as a more plausible
explanation until and unless otherwise excluded.

Every time a phenomenon can be explained as a statistical artifact, I would
be more inclined to go with this solution...

--
Stefano Vaj
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 14:27:39 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 10:27:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=S5Kd4gTjNoerzzttniKZMg83-3T_pQXCU=UWO@mail.gmail.com>

"technically equipped"

That should have been 'technologically equipped.' I'm taking a
cold medicine and I just checked the ingredients. It has pseudo-ephedrine in
it, and that always fuzzes up my thinking a bit. I have a chemistry exam in
20 minutes. Sloppy writing may be the least of my academic problems today.
:)

Darren

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Eugen wrote:
>
> >The person is not important,
>
> The person is very important, because how he and others involved are dealt
> with will determine the level of risk others are willing to take to
> accomplish similar ventures in future. I'd say the press is more focussed on
> Assange than the content of the leaks precisely because they understand
> this.
>
> >the press waking up to the possibility of using the Internet as an
> anonymous, uncensorable informant platform is.<
>
> If you're a decent journalist, you probably already know this. What you
> don't know is if a government is unable to censor the information, how
> effective will it be in censoring the person or persons responsible for
> leaking it? Because as you know, *nothing* is anonymous on the Internet.
> That's the great irony of our age. An unfathomable sea of information,
> with your signature on every molecule of data you contribute, if someone
> is determined and technically equipped and proficient enough to look for it.
>
> Darren
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Dec  7 14:38:57 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 15:38:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101207143856.GU9434@leitl.org>

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 09:49:46AM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:

> The person is very important, because how he and others involved are dealt
> with will determine the level of risk others are willing to take to

That's just the point: a successor platform to Wikileaks has
no monetary streams to trace or block, and it does not expose
operators, and actively hides contributors.

> accomplish similar ventures in future. I'd say the press is more focussed on
> Assange than the content of the leaks precisely because they understand
> this.

The press is of some relevance on the short run, but on the long
run the press as we know is has gone to party with the buggy whip
makers.
 
> >the press waking up to the possibility of using the Internet as an
> anonymous, uncensorable informant platform is.<
> 
> If you're a decent journalist, you probably already know this. What you

Somebody fetch me a decent journalist. These have been lately in
short supply. In fact, even bad journalists are getting hard to
pay lately. Lack of revenue will do that to you.

> don't know is if a government is unable to censor the information, how
> effective will it be in censoring the person or persons responsible for
> leaking it? Because as you know, *nothing* is anonymous on the Internet.

There are anonymizing overlays of existing Internet which are quite
hard to trace (even for a TLA), especially if you remove the realtime 
communication requirement part. Distributed cryptographic filesystems 
like Tahoe can be made very, very difficult to attack -- both at the 
reader, content blocking, or publisher layer. 

The problem with journalists is that they wouldn't know how to 
use such platforms. For them Wikileaks will be a gentle introduction.

> That's the great irony of our age. An unfathomable sea of information, with
> your signature on every molecule of data you contribute, if someone is
> determined and technically equipped and proficient enough to look for it.

If you know what the signature is, it's pretty easy to remove.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 16:11:33 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:11:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <20101207143856.GU9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207143856.GU9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim43FtWYfZm14Se=nBx+2bS3rT56WgSsBA5hQx7@mail.gmail.com>

>The press is of some relevance on the short run, but on the long
run the press as we know is has gone to party with the buggy whip
makers.<

Agreed. Canada has a few decent journalists left. John Ibbitson is one I
would invite to dinner. There are others.  One of the problems with
mainstream press here in Canada is that they try so hard to be unbiased that
they are easily manipulated.

>That's just the point: a successor platform to Wikileaks has
no monetary streams to trace or block, and it does not expose
operators, and actively hides contributors.<

So what do you do? You can't punish contributors, so you punish those who
make it possible to contribute and are trying to protect those involved.
It's not just Assange and Wikileaks here. Amazon has paid a price for
hosting the site. An independent cooperation forced by political pressure to
remove it? Someone somewhere can always be forced to be take responsibility,
even if it's way down the line. You're right that the battle is not really
about these people or Assange. It's a public relations battle in the long
run. But forcing these people into the public eye is key to it.

>If you know what the signature is, it's pretty easy to remove.<

Perhaps. I don't know enough about internet technology to say for certain.
But Spike mentioned in this thread that someone in this group was once
worried about some things he had posted. Since it turned out to be
impossible to remove the comments from the database, the group just started
imitating each other's style and posting along similar lines so that it
would be difficult to tell who was posting what and the guy with the
original concern would get lost in the shuffle. The question I asked myself
when I read that is how did that person originally communicate his concern
over what he posted? Via the group? How was the plan of
action communicated to everyone involved? Also via the group? Private
e-mails? Snail mail. Code?

Given world enough and time, to quote Andrew Marvel, you could probably get
to the bottom of it. There's a trail somewhere. Not just via the web, but
through traditional tracking systems -- real world intelligence services,
courts, subpoenas, etc. In most cases, the effort is just not worth it. In
this case, however, some governments have decided it is. They will fail
miserably, and for all I know there may be a million ways to keep
your activities on the web a secret from all, including determined
government agencies and hackers from China and internet service providers
and the like.  But when the people doing the looking are as good if not
better than those doing the hiding, nothing is for certain.

Anyway. It seems to me there is nothing new taking place here. Just
another information power struggle similar to the one five hundred years ago
when William Tyndale translated the bible into English and was killed for
it. Mean-time it was too late: it had already had been copied and
distributed and Tyndale became a martyr for the faith. I'm not saying
Assange will have the same fate, but if they keep it up, he'll be a digital
saint before sundown.

Darren



On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 09:49:46AM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:
>
> > The person is very important, because how he and others involved are
> dealt
> > with will determine the level of risk others are willing to take to
>
> That's just the point: a successor platform to Wikileaks has
> no monetary streams to trace or block, and it does not expose
> operators, and actively hides contributors.
>
> > accomplish similar ventures in future. I'd say the press is more focussed
> on
> > Assange than the content of the leaks precisely because they understand
> > this.
>
> The press is of some relevance on the short run, but on the long
> run the press as we know is has gone to party with the buggy whip
> makers.
>
> > >the press waking up to the possibility of using the Internet as an
> > anonymous, uncensorable informant platform is.<
> >
> > If you're a decent journalist, you probably already know this. What you
>
> Somebody fetch me a decent journalist. These have been lately in
> short supply. In fact, even bad journalists are getting hard to
> pay lately. Lack of revenue will do that to you.
>
> > don't know is if a government is unable to censor the information, how
> > effective will it be in censoring the person or persons responsible for
> > leaking it? Because as you know, *nothing* is anonymous on the Internet.
>
> There are anonymizing overlays of existing Internet which are quite
> hard to trace (even for a TLA), especially if you remove the realtime
> communication requirement part. Distributed cryptographic filesystems
> like Tahoe can be made very, very difficult to attack -- both at the
> reader, content blocking, or publisher layer.
>
> The problem with journalists is that they wouldn't know how to
> use such platforms. For them Wikileaks will be a gentle introduction.
>
> > That's the great irony of our age. An unfathomable sea of information,
> with
> > your signature on every molecule of data you contribute, if someone is
> > determined and technically equipped and proficient enough to look for it.
>
> If you know what the signature is, it's pretty easy to remove.
>
> --
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec  7 16:16:11 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 10:16:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimON5JOMtpkm72Ov53w0kgncpD885oud2yTSL9i@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimON5JOMtpkm72Ov53w0kgncpD885oud2yTSL9i@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFE5DCB.6010203@satx.rr.com>

On 12/7/2010 8:14 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> Every time a phenomenon can be explained as a statistical artifact, I
> would be more inclined to go with this solution...

Agreed, of course, that's the only rational attitude.

I'm waiting to hear from critics what the artifacts are in Bem's case.

This is why it's important to pay attention to even the shoddy attempted 
refutation of Bem's work by Alcock. But *only* if equal attention is 
paid to Bem's response.

It might turn out that Bem (or any other psi researcher) has left 
serious holes in his protocol, or used the wrong analytical, evaluative 
methods, etc. Because that's always possible, it's necessary to have 
strenuous criticism. But it's pointless saying, as BillK just did, "Even 
if you allow more extraordinary causes, there is still no reason to make 
a preference for psi, rather than other woo-woo. Any of them 'might' be 
the cause," unless you can make a stab at showing what sorts of errors 
might yield those results in a given experiment.

Science doesn't falsify an experiment by shouting "BULLSHIT! I don't 
believe that, and I don't have to say why in this case because the whole 
idea is *crazy*." A lot of people thought QT was crazy and intolerable, 
but they didn't think they'd got rid of the results just by saying so. 
They tried their best to find countervailing evidence and explanations 
for the annoying data--and failed to.

Damien Broderick



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec  7 16:20:51 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 11:20:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B04386BF-010B-480E-A6D8-0D9B83087820@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> The usual way of doing science is to pick a hypothesis, because you have dreamt of it, or satisfy your aesthetical sense, or simply is yours and nobody ever thought about it, and try to confirm it.

But the hard truth is that good ideas are very rare and your new idea that you love so very much is almost certainly worthless as experiments can prove; they don't usually prove the idea is wrong, it's very hard to prove a negative, but they can prove the idea is silly, that is to say its not worth your time and it could be better spent doing other things. There is no disgrace in having an idea that doesn't work out, all the great scientists have been wrong about something, the disgrace is in not admitting defeat and moving on.

>> But with psi and cold fusion there is such a enormously powerful visceral wish for it to be true that the true believers simply refuse to take "no" as an answer, so they demand that it be tested again, and again, and again, and again. In the case of psi this has been going on for CENTURIES, it's time to stop this ridiculous situation and say enough is enough. 

> This is an interesting sociological remark, but of little epistemological relevance.

At one time it was thought that heavy objects fell faster in a gravitational field than light ones if they were in a vacuum, and even today the intuition of most people tells them that is the case; however it is easy with a few simple experiments to convince them it is not true. The reason it is so easy is that the law of falling bodies caries little emotional baggage, if it had as much as psi then even today  hundreds of years after Galileo people would be insisting that if scientists dropped heavy and light weights one more time off the Leaning Tower of Pisa they would find that this time the heavy one would indeed fall faster than the light. 

 John K Clark    

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec  7 16:26:15 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:26:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between
	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <F792D32B775F4E8C93E6FF758AAC1012@PCserafino>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com><7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net><000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net><AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com><003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net><005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net><AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com><4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com><AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com><4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com><7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net><000c01cb94ab$3d783e40$b868bac0$@att.net><0B730DA7-EB92-4C38-AB00-1731CB478E02@bellsouth.net><004c01cb9578$c58da680$50a8f380$@att.net>	<AANLkTinu1jKsuia3SY8o1ki4Bx0fiwZg8JPQ_9PPLD_E@mail.gmail.com>
	<F792D32B775F4E8C93 E6FF758AAC1012@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <004201cb962b$78f19710$6ad4c530$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of scerir
Subject: Re: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
Non-Locality and Uncertainty.

Mike:
>> QM as artifact of incomplete model?

>QM as an incomplete theory!

...

Even the masters of QM do not claim it is a *complete* theory, or even
unified with gravity.  It is a stubborn fact (which I recognize and accept)
that QM works better than any alternative theory in physics and better than
any mathematical model we have in any field of science, with the possible
exception of relativity, with which it is not unified.  It is the only
theory I know of which can make accurate predictions of particles we have
never seen, and predict their masses so accurately.  QM is the ultimate
pragmatist's theory: we disdain it, we don't understand it, but we use it,
and it works great.  If QM didn't work so well, no one would take it
seriously.

spike








From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec  7 16:48:32 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 11:48:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 6, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> John is surprisingly naive about science. I suspect that this is because he's an engineer, trained to apply what is known to be the case, to get the job done.


If part of the job includes figuring out what avenues are worth pursuing and which are likely to be a silly waste of time then I plead guilty. 

> If you start out with the absolute certainty that psi does not exist[...]

But I don't have absolute certainty that psi does not exist, I just have absolute certainty that psi is a
silly waste of time. In fact, not only am I absolutely certain I'm probably correct too.

> Well, confirming doesn't work either, as Popper showed.

Popper did some good stuff but I'm much less a fan than I once was. For most of his life Popper did not approve of Evolution; as late as 1976 Popper said ?Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research program?. His opposition did a lot of harm too, to this day Bible thumpers use Popper quotations in their legal briefs to try to get creationism taught in the classroom.

To his credit in 1978 at the ripe old age of 76 Popper reversed his position and said ?I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation?. So 119 years after the publication of "The Origin Of
Species", perhaps the greatest scientific book ever written, this philosopher of science came to the conclusion that maybe Darwin was on to something after all.

  John K Clark









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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 16:41:24 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:41:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <4CFE5DCB.6010203@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimON5JOMtpkm72Ov53w0kgncpD885oud2yTSL9i@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFE5DCB.6010203@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinANVNPJpUPcaeubf5aueeeBjompcEtSfJUzn5N@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> It might turn out that Bem (or any other psi researcher) has left serious
> holes in his protocol, or used the wrong analytical, evaluative methods,
> etc. Because that's always possible, it's necessary to have strenuous
> criticism. But it's pointless saying, as BillK just did, "Even if you allow
> more extraordinary causes, there is still no reason to make a preference for
> psi, rather than other woo-woo. Any of them 'might' be the cause," unless
> you can make a stab at showing what sorts of errors might yield those
> results in a given experiment.
>
>


It is a two-step criticism.

The first step is, as you say, to prove that the statistical oddity
actually exists, is a repeatable finding by unbiased researchers, and
the statistical analysis is believed by most mathematicians.
Step One is still unresolved to most scientists satisfaction.

The second step is to find the cause of the statistical oddity.
Try to prove that psychic powers, and nothing but psychic powers,
causes the oddity.
Step Two will never be resolved until some testable mechanism can be
provided that can detect whether 'psychic powers' are operating or
not. At present, 'psi' relies on after the fact analysis and saying
'Oh look, he must have been psychic in those tests last week'.
This is a totally unsatisfactory misuse of the scientific method.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec  7 16:58:12 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:58:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004901cb962f$ef1cea30$cd56be90$@att.net>


Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks

 

Eugen wrote:

 

>The person is not important.

.

 

>>>>>>  spike wrote:  The person becomes extremely important if they get to
the conviction phase regarding leaking info.  I am not referring to Julian
or Private Manning, but rather the people who put classified info on an
unsecure link.  When one gets a clearance, one of the things they hammer is
that you are legally liable if you put classified info on any unsecure link,
regardless of whether or not it leaks.  Of course, if ianything is revealed
in Wikileaks, it is impossible to determine who actually wrote what and if
so, what the person actually wrote, or how it was modified after the fact by
unknown persons. spike

 

>>>>> spike wrote:  I didn't write that.  spike

 

>>>> spike wrote:  You did so.  spike

 

>>> spike wrote:  Did not.  spike

 

>> spike wrote:  Did SO.  spike

 

> spike wrote:  Did NOT.  spike

 

Well, OK I might have written it, or part of it.  Maybe.  spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From scerir at alice.it  Tue Dec  7 17:43:22 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 18:43:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link BetweenQuantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <004201cb962b$78f19710$6ad4c530$@att.net>
References: om><F792D32B775F4E8C93 E6FF758AAC1012@PCserafino>
	<004201cb962b$78f19710$6ad4c530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AA1CA4943F6C4140B88150B93AD75EA1@PCserafino>

> QM is the ultimate pragmatist's theory: we disdain it, we don't understand it, but we
> use it, and it works great.  If QM didn't work so well, no one would take it seriously.
>
> spike

I can only add few, but salty, quotes!

The underlying error may be the conviction that the system itself has to be represented in
order to represent our actions upon it. In quantum theory we represent actual operations
and the relations among them, not a hypothetical reality on which they act. Quantum theory
is a theory of actuality, not reality. I have taken this term from Whitehead's writings.
-David Finkelstein, in 'The State of Quantum Physics'.

Unfortunately, quantum theory is incompatible with the proposition that "measurements" are
processes by means of which we discover some unknown but preexisting reality.
-Asher Peres, "What is a state vector?" , Am. J. Phys. 52 (7), July 1984

We are thus led to the conclusion that the _psi_ symbol (the so-called "state" or
"wavefunction") is not an attribute of a _system_ but of a _procedure_. A single physical
system has no state. One might be tempted to say that a system prepared by procedure _psi_
"is in state _psi_". However, this seemingly innocuous phrase leads to paradoxes whenever
a measurement is performed and the state "collapses", as shown in Sec.II.
-Asher Peres, "What is a state vector?" , Am. J. Phys. 52 (7), July 1984

Schr?dinger was wrong. Entanglement is not the characteristic trait of quantum mechanics.
Entanglement is a symptom. It points to a deeper mystery. This mystery is the fact that no
property is a possessed property unless it is measured.
-Ulrich Mohrhoff

In an experiment the state reflects not what is actually known about the system, but
rather what is knowable, in principle, with the help of auxiliary measurements that do not
disturb the original experiment. By focusing on what is knowable in principle, and
treating what is known as largely irrelevant, one completely avoids the anthropomorphism
and any reference to consciousness that some physicists have tried to inject into quantum
mechanics.
-Leonard Mandel (Rev. Mod. Phys.,1999, p.S-274)

The superposition of amplitudes is only valid if there is no way to know, even in
principle, which path the particle took. It is important to realize that this does not
imply that an observer actually takes note of what happens. It is sufficient to destroy
the interference pattern, if the path information is accessible in principle from the
experiment or even if it is dispersed in the environment and beyond any technical
possibility to be recovered, but in principle 'still out there'.
-Anton Zeilinger, (Rev. Mod. Phys., 1999, p. S-288)

Either the wavefunction, as given by the Schroedinger equation, is not everything, or it
is not right.
-J.S.Bell, 'Are there quantum jumps', in 'Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics'

Years ago [1993], I once argued that the many-worlds doesn't seem compatible with Occam's
razor principle. As answer I got the following: "Occam's razor should not be applied to
the physical world, but be applied to the Schroedinger equation; don't add any term to
this beautiful equation" [D. Zeh]. The linearity of the Schroedinger equation was assumed
more real than our physical Universe!
-Nicolas Gisin

Interpretations of quantum mechanics, unlike Gods, are not jealous, and thus it is safe to
believe in more than one at the same time. So if the many-worlds interpretation makes it
easier to think about the research you're doing in April, and the Copenhagen
interpretation makes it easier to think about the research you're doing in June, the
Copenhagen interpretation is not going to smite you for praying to the many-worlds
interpretation. At least I hope it won't, because otherwise I'm in big trouble.
-Peter Shor

>From these two basic ideas alone -- indefiniteness and the superposition principle -- it
should be clear already that quantum mechanics conflicts sharply with common sense. If the
quantum state of a system is a complete description of the system, then a quantity that
has an indefinite value in that quantum state is objectively indefinite; its value is not
merely unknown by the scientist who seeks to describe the system. Furthermore, since the
outcome of a measurement of an objectively indefinite quantity is not determined by the
quantum state, and yet the quantum state is the complete bearer of information about the
system, the outcome is strictly a matter of objective chance -- not just a matter of
chance in the sense of unpredictability by the scientist. Finally, the probability of each
possible outcome of the measurement is an objective probability. Classical physics did not
conflict with common sense in these fundamental ways.
-Abner Shimony

Basically, quantum mechanics is the operating system that other physical theories run on
as application software (with the exception of general relativity, which hasn't yet been
successfully ported to this particular OS).
-Scott Aaronson








From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec  7 18:07:03 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:07:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>

On 12/7/2010 10:48 AM, John Clark wrote:

>> Well, confirming doesn't work either, as Popper showed.

> Popper did some good stuff but I'm much less a fan than I once was.

I'm surprised that you'd kvetch about this particular point. 
"Confirming" doesn't settle anything, because often a number of 
explanations lead to the same prediction or expectation. That's why it 
is helpful to try to falsify each one in a test that leaves one or more 
of the alternatives standing. In fact, I would expect you to be arguing 
that proponents of psi are guilty of the confirmation error, since (you 
might claim) they assume that the statistical and other errors they 
stupidly make confirm psi rather than their incompetence as 
experimenters. Of course you'd then have to show what those errors are, 
which is difficult when you refuse to waste your time reading the 
experimental reports.

Damien Broderick


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 18:13:03 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 11:13:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The tyranny of context free grammars
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=f9tEa=rA6pt001dnOCPn=Kzw8vjamxHa1kot+@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  <Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> ?I'd be careful about pining for more languages like
> perl, you have obviously never maintained significant systems written
> in perl. ?To be avoided if at all possible.

I am not an expert on Perl . . .

About a dozen years ago I needed to solve a simple problem.  In those
days, a GB was a big disk.  An office network was being served page
images from a raid server backed up (if the image was not found) by a
CDROM jukebox.  It took upwards of 20 seconds to load a CD.  The image
files were all unique names and chances were high that the image you
wanted was on someone's disk on the local network, but where?

It took me several days to figure out how to do this in Perl, which
has got to be the least productive language in terms of lines of code
per day.  I think the server side and client side together were less
than a dozen lines.  It worked just fine, with the server pinging the
local network if it couldn't find the requested image and the
listening client machines telling the server if they had the image.

Done in C it would have taken hundreds of lines and a lot of effort to debug.

I agree with Ryan that Perl (and Forth) are nearly impossible to
maintain.  That's because it's nearly impossible to read code and
figure out what it does.

Keith



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec  7 18:25:01 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:25:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimON5JOMtpkm72Ov53w0kgncpD885oud2yTSL9i@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimON5JOMtpkm72Ov53w0kgncpD885oud2yTSL9i@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89B5E3F8-51C6-4544-93D2-EC35959D5DA9@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 7, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> the real debate is what may be the most economical explanations for "psi" phenomena.

No, the real debate, if you want to glorify it with that noble word, is something that should have ended to everybody's satisfaction centuries ago, namely, is there a phenomenon that even deserves an explanation?

 John K Clark 

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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 18:43:39 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 14:43:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <004901cb962f$ef1cea30$cd56be90$@att.net>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
	<004901cb962f$ef1cea30$cd56be90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimHEmM1GoPOYfdSjE+UnFXz1w+LgfqVZDKMCq5O@mail.gmail.com>

>>>>> spike wrote:  I didn?t write that.  spike



>>>> spike wrote:  You did so.  spike



>>> spike wrote:  Did not.  spike



>> spike wrote:  Did SO.  spike



> spike wrote:  Did NOT.  spike


Well, OK I might have written it, or part of it.  Maybe.  spike

You do admit to being a suspicious personage involved in
semi-covert, deliberately obfuscating and border-line subversive activity,
though, right? Rats in a face-cage for you, Winston. :)

Darren



2010/12/7 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Wikileaks
>
>
>
> Eugen wrote:
>
>
>
> >The person is not important?
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >>>>>>  spike wrote:  The person becomes extremely important if they get to
> the conviction phase regarding leaking info.  I am not referring to Julian
> or Private Manning, but rather the people who put classified info on an
> unsecure link.  When one gets a clearance, one of the things they hammer is
> that you are legally liable if you put classified info on any unsecure link,
> regardless of whether or not it leaks.  Of course, if ianything is revealed
> in Wikileaks, it is impossible to determine who actually wrote what and if
> so, what the person actually wrote, or how it was modified after the fact by
> unknown persons. spike
>
>
>
> >>>>> spike wrote:  I didn?t write that.  spike
>
>
>
> >>>> spike wrote:  You did so.  spike
>
>
>
> >>> spike wrote:  Did not.  spike
>
>
>
> >> spike wrote:  Did SO.  spike
>
>
>
> > spike wrote:  Did NOT.  spike
>
>
>
> Well, OK I might have written it, or part of it.  Maybe.  spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec  7 18:44:44 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 13:44:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>
	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 7, 2010, at 1:07 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> Of course you'd then have to show what those errors are, which is difficult when you refuse to waste your time reading the experimental reports.

As I've said before, until the results are repeated by somebody I respect I am not even certain there ARE experimental results and not just stuff some guy typed. And speaking of things said before, I recall that well over a decade ago you urged me to read some other long forgotten psi experiment that was hot at the time, I don't recall my exact response but it was along the lines of that it would be a complete waste of time and I'd rather watch paint dry. Time has proven my judgment correct as that experiment has entered the black hole of oblivion, and I'm sure this one will too; I believe you think the same thing otherwise you would have taken me up on my bet.

 John K Clark

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec  7 18:49:24 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 10:49:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim43FtWYfZm14Se=nBx+2bS3rT56WgSsBA5hQx7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>	<20101207143856.GU9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTim43FtWYfZm14Se=nBx+2bS3rT56WgSsBA5hQx7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007301cb963f$78118030$68348090$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Darren Greer
.

 

>.Spike mentioned in this thread that someone in this group was once worried
about some things he had posted. Since it turned out to be impossible to
remove the comments from the database, the group just started imitating each
other's style and posting along similar lines .Darren

 

 

It might be time to repeat that exercise.  I got to thinking about it and
realized that much of that predated the 9/11/01 attack.  After Extro5, we
had a huge blowout party at my house, with guys coming thru all day.  I
would estimate about 40 were here at one time or another, so I had them all
write something and sign it as coming from me.  We had a blast.

 

Since then friends have visited, and I always have them post something from
my computer, just to add to the confusion and fun.  Now I have complete
control over my own written past.  If anyone cites anything I ever wrote, I
can ask to see it, to determine if I actually wrote it, or part of it, with
the option of disowning anything, or for that matter, owning anything you
wrote on ExI.  

 

The person who later asked for an archive purge was one of those who wrote
messages that day in June 2001, and has done so on at least three different
occasions, from my house, in the subsequent years.

 

I invite anyone here to write a post and sign it by me.  Let us keep it in
good fun, for it is just a game, with a point.

 

I may or may not have written the above, but I cannot be certain.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 19:00:23 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 20:00:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimHEmM1GoPOYfdSjE+UnFXz1w+LgfqVZDKMCq5O@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
	<004901cb962f$ef1cea30$cd56be90$@att.net>
	<AANLkTimHEmM1GoPOYfdSjE+UnFXz1w+LgfqVZDKMCq5O@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=VxBA+odsvuKY5uH8BwT9H+H6uydVe1wuz=UL6@mail.gmail.com>

As a pragmatist I know that some secrecy is advisable on occasions in
the interest of all parties, so my position cannot be black or white.
But I will join the rally for "Nobel for Peace to Julian!" and I am
looking for a way to donate to Wikileaks (now that it has been dumped
by Paypal and Master and Visa).


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Dec  7 19:31:17 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 20:31:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>
	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>
	<53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin94SzRc3BYHtugOy7iD-0Y=mY_7B-NqL3wrNh9@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/7 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> As I've said before, until the results are repeated by somebody I respect I
> am not even certain there ARE experimental results and not just stuff some
> guy typed.
>

The problem is: if you would not respect anybody returning certain
experimental results, this quickly become a circular issue.

I do consider myself rather skeptical of many phenomena which appear to be
taken almost for granted in the psi circles - say, remote viewing... - but
the methodological problem is important to me, as I think that our age  is
equally dominated by pop  quackery and eccessive academic dogmatism.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec  7 19:40:29 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 13:40:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>
	<53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4CFE8DAD.6000302@satx.rr.com>

On 12/7/2010 12:44 PM, John Clark wrote:

> As I've said before, until the results are repeated by somebody I
> respect I am not even certain there ARE experimental results and not
> just stuff some guy typed.

So a Cornell professor publishing a peer-reviewed paper in one of the 
most prestigious journals of his discipline fails the test of being 
somebody you respect, simply because you don't like his results. The 
term "barricaded prejudice" comes to mind. At this point you're just 
being ridiculous. Awaiting further replication is sensible; implying 
that Bem and the journal's reviewers and editors are liars and idiots 
is... not.

Damien Broderick


From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Dec  7 20:01:42 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 21:01:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The tyranny of context free grammars
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=f9tEa=rA6pt001dnOCPn=Kzw8vjamxHa1kot+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=f9tEa=rA6pt001dnOCPn=Kzw8vjamxHa1kot+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101207200142.GP9434@leitl.org>

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 11:13:03AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:

> I agree with Ryan that Perl (and Forth) are nearly impossible to

It is quite possible to write very readable, verbose Perl.
It is also quite possible to write extremely terse, incomprehensible
Perl.

Forth isn't really a good comparison, because you typically implement
a DSL in Forth, which then can have arbitrary syntax.

Consider the following Forth sources written for this minimal
CPU (defined in VeriLog:
http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/verilog/j1.v )

This implements the basic Forth words from primitives:
http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/basewords.fs.html

This is an Ethernet driver:
http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/eth-ax88796.fs.html

ARP: http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/arp.fs.html

IP: http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/ip.fs.html

UDP: http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/udp.fs.html

etc, see http://excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html

> maintain.  That's because it's nearly impossible to read code and
> figure out what it does.

Only if the programmer is trying to be too clever for their
own good.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Dec  7 21:34:47 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 22:34:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim43FtWYfZm14Se=nBx+2bS3rT56WgSsBA5hQx7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207143856.GU9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTim43FtWYfZm14Se=nBx+2bS3rT56WgSsBA5hQx7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101207213447.GQ9434@leitl.org>

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 12:11:33PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:

> So what do you do? You can't punish contributors, so you punish those who
> make it possible to contribute and are trying to protect those involved.

In practice, if you have thousands and ten thousands (or hundreds
thousands and millions) of nodes spread all over the world, run
by volunteers (and nonvolunteers, see the average botnet) the
enforcement is completely impractical.

> It's not just Assange and Wikileaks here. Amazon has paid a price for
> hosting the site. An independent cooperation forced by political pressure to

That's just the point: a single site is a single point of attack.
What do you attack if the only thing the publishers and the readers
see is localhost? DDoS 127.0.0.1 or ::1? Won't work too well, I'm afraid.
How do you forge document references like
http://127.0.0.1/uri/URI:DIR2:ctmtx2awdo4xt77x5xxaz6nyxm:n5t546ddvd6xlv4v6se6sjympbdbvo7orwizuzl42urm73sxazqa/
?

How do you abuse the network if you need reputation in order
to be able to publish, and the only way to gain reputation is
to prove you're serving reliably, without knowing what you're
serving, and hence not being able to censor other than denying
service, and thus being denied reputation in turn?

> remove it? Someone somewhere can always be forced to be take responsibility,
> even if it's way down the line. You're right that the battle is not really

Spread the risk over many buckets, including involuntary volunteers.
Send the SWATs to Redmond and Cupertino. That'll teach'em.

> about these people or Assange. It's a public relations battle in the long
> run. But forcing these people into the public eye is key to it.
> 
> >If you know what the signature is, it's pretty easy to remove.<
> 
> Perhaps. I don't know enough about internet technology to say for certain.

A number of psedonymous/anonymous and outright dark networks are in
operation on the Internet. They are only a minor nuisance to the
authorities, and furthermore useful as training sandboxes, so but
for minor harassments their operators are left in peace. If the stakes
are raised high enough no doubt at least parts of the network will
go underground, and hence entirely out of reach of law enforcement.

> But Spike mentioned in this thread that someone in this group was once
> worried about some things he had posted. Since it turned out to be
> impossible to remove the comments from the database, the group just started
> imitating each other's style and posting along similar lines so that it
> would be difficult to tell who was posting what and the guy with the

In the case of leaks, you're just the conduit. If you're a smart leaker,
to take great pains to not put your own fingerprints on the material.
You must take care to not leak anything watermarked to you personally.

> original concern would get lost in the shuffle. The question I asked myself
> when I read that is how did that person originally communicate his concern
> over what he posted? Via the group? How was the plan of
> action communicated to everyone involved? Also via the group? Private
> e-mails? Snail mail. Code?

If you don't want to be known, use a nym. If you don't want to produce
style fingerprints linkable to a different nym, do not post under a different
nym.
 
> Given world enough and time, to quote Andrew Marvel, you could probably get
> to the bottom of it. There's a trail somewhere. Not just via the web, but

You're in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.

> through traditional tracking systems -- real world intelligence services,

Their possibilities are limited. So they've got network probes upstream
of all those ~1 k public Tor nodes, so what? Leaker network can easily
tolerate ~h latencies, so put that into your chaffed onion mix cascade, 
and smoke it.

> courts, subpoenas, etc. In most cases, the effort is just not worth it. In
> this case, however, some governments have decided it is. They will fail
> miserably, and for all I know there may be a million ways to keep
> your activities on the web a secret from all, including determined
> government agencies and hackers from China and internet service providers
> and the like.  But when the people doing the looking are as good if not
> better than those doing the hiding, nothing is for certain.

The people doing the hiding need only to install a piece of hardware.
The expertise needs to reside with people who designed and implemented
said piece of software. Most operators can be Mallory, a properly
designed system should be able to deal with that.
 
> Anyway. It seems to me there is nothing new taking place here. Just
> another information power struggle similar to the one five hundred years ago
> when William Tyndale translated the bible into English and was killed for

Arguably we're at the stage of Gutenberg, where the means of mass
production of text were taken out of the hands of professional scribes
and exacerbated the "problem" of proliferation of unsanctioned thoughts.

> it. Mean-time it was too late: it had already had been copied and
> distributed and Tyndale became a martyr for the faith. I'm not saying
> Assange will have the same fate, but if they keep it up, he'll be a digital
> saint before sundown.

http://mrhoovler.com/Documents/Repent%20Harlequin.pdf

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Dec  7 21:51:04 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 22:51:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <20101207213447.GQ9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207143856.GU9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTim43FtWYfZm14Se=nBx+2bS3rT56WgSsBA5hQx7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207213447.GQ9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20101207215103.GV9434@leitl.org>

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 10:34:47PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> The people doing the hiding need only to install a piece of hardware.

I usually don't bother self-correcting, but this one is of course software,
not hardware. (Though, of course, said software installed on disposable
hardware (aka plug computer) and installed in random, undocumented
locations adds some considerable mischief to the mix).


From max at maxmore.com  Tue Dec  7 23:13:31 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 17:13:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative
 LinkBetween	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
Message-ID: <201012072340.oB7NeJmm020289@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

spike wrote:

>Ah yes, but of course dividing by zero is not necessarily a syntax 
>error, if god multiplies the result by zero.  The result might be 
>infinite, or it might be zero, or any finite between those 
>two.  That is how we know god is a bastard, for inventing such a system.

Hey!

What is this harsh prejudice against bastards? I happen to be a 
bastard too, in the most literal sense. Why is this an insult? If God 
is really a bastard, how is it His fault? At least point the finger 
at father-of-God.

God (if He/it really existed) would have a LOT to answer for, but not 
for being bastard.

Sheesh.

Max
(Complete and utter bastard.)


-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader
The Proactionary Project
Vice Chair, Humanity+
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec  8 00:40:31 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:40:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative
	LinkBetween	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <201012072340.oB7NeJmm020289@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201012072340.oB7NeJmm020289@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <000f01cb9670$84d73130$8e859390$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Max More
Subject: Re: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative LinkBetween Quantum
Non-Locality and Uncertainty.

spike wrote:

>>...that is how we know god is a bastard, for inventing such a system.

Max wrote: 

>Hey!  What is this harsh prejudice against bastards? I happen to be a
bastard too, in the most literal sense...

Hey, me three!  {8-]

>Why is this an insult? If God is really a bastard, how is it His fault? At
least point the finger at father-of-God...Max

One is immune from criticism for using any politically incorrect term, so
long as one is one oneself.

{8^D

spike













From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  8 01:03:12 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 17:03:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=-83_aij5WopLNL=ygzJ7dhJ-vsJvEJ1Jtzuj2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=-qnqTxqjK_VrCfMMSN=SNJHJdgnqDi9LY=zJe@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-pW36hKS0ugbX-6JMUwZWe2Wbg_UpWOLBRSRG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYG5qvLZE_RwpgLB-kUxwMx6mpL1ijXmBCYYA_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFB2F0F.1050405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinG4VCJ_Q9Y3=mNArpF5ZJdY+nX=KatsiKvgkCT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFBB129.2000500@satx.rr.com>
	<7AAE801D-D37F-44A1-B6A3-A2521E154BC4@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTi=-83_aij5WopLNL=ygzJ7dhJ-vsJvEJ1Jtzuj2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <212510.91828.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 9:29:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum 
>Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
> 
> Just for the record, I am completely boggled by the Copenhagen
> interpretation - it appears to be such absolute nonsense that I can't
> understand why it was proposed in the first place, why it was
> accepted, and why only 50% of physicists have so far have rejected it.
> One thing I don't understand about many worlds which so cleanly
> explains the double slit experiment is why it triggers an emotional
> rejection reaction in so many people.

In MWI, the universe splits to allow for all possible outcomes of an experiment 
to occur in their own respective?universes.

This implies that if you were to perform an experiment to determine if either 
MWI or the Copenhagen interpretation?was the correct interpretation of QM, then 
in at least?one of the universes, Copehagen?would be correct.???

Stuart LaForge 

"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower 



      



From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Wed Dec  8 02:22:39 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 18:22:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The tyranny of context free grammars
In-Reply-To: <20101207200142.GP9434@leitl.org>
References: <AANLkTi=f9tEa=rA6pt001dnOCPn=Kzw8vjamxHa1kot+@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207200142.GP9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin8CedHn++FCXUNtYWuwgab+yyf48qq6r_2rrof@mail.gmail.com>

I was merely pointing out the downfall of a context-ful grammar, since
the original poster makes it seem like "if only we shed the shackles
of CFGs we'd be better for it".  There is a dark side of that though,
and perl is one of them... I've written a few thousand lines of perl,
it's great for hacking things out, but trying to re-discover what you
coded a few weeks/months/years ago can be... difficult.

I also noted that Dijkstra noted that there is strength in formalisms
that seem simple but allow people to do much more complex things.
>From his article, we probably don't want to go back to arguing algebra
without the symbolism.

That is what context free grammars (CFGs as I have been saying)
deliver - simplicity at the base level, but anyone who knows languages
like haskell, lisp, etc know that complexity abounds and amazing
things can happen.

I was particularly enthused by the 'list processing module' tidbits
from Kurzweil's talk at the singularity summit this summer here in SF.
 I haven't spent any time on it though.

-ryan

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 11:13:03AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
>
>> I agree with Ryan that Perl (and Forth) are nearly impossible to
>
> It is quite possible to write very readable, verbose Perl.
> It is also quite possible to write extremely terse, incomprehensible
> Perl.
>
> Forth isn't really a good comparison, because you typically implement
> a DSL in Forth, which then can have arbitrary syntax.
>
> Consider the following Forth sources written for this minimal
> CPU (defined in VeriLog:
> http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/verilog/j1.v )
>
> This implements the basic Forth words from primitives:
> http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/basewords.fs.html
>
> This is an Ethernet driver:
> http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/eth-ax88796.fs.html
>
> ARP: http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/arp.fs.html
>
> IP: http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/ip.fs.html
>
> UDP: http://excamera.com/files/j1demo/docforth/udp.fs.html
>
> etc, see http://excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html
>
>> maintain. ?That's because it's nearly impossible to read code and
>> figure out what it does.
>
> Only if the programmer is trying to be too clever for their
> own good.
>
> --
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A ?7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From agrimes at speakeasy.net  Wed Dec  8 03:14:22 2010
From: agrimes at speakeasy.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 22:14:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The tyranny of context free grammars
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin8CedHn++FCXUNtYWuwgab+yyf48qq6r_2rrof@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=f9tEa=rA6pt001dnOCPn=Kzw8vjamxHa1kot+@mail.gmail.com>	<20101207200142.GP9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTin8CedHn++FCXUNtYWuwgab+yyf48qq6r_2rrof@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CFEF80E.50308@speakeasy.net>

Ryan Rawson wrote:
> was merely pointing out the downfall of a context-ful grammar, since
> the original poster makes it seem like "if only we shed the shackles
> of CFGs we'd be better for it".  There is a dark side of that though,
> and perl is one of them... I've written a few thousand lines of perl,
> it's great for hacking things out, but trying to re-discover what you
> coded a few weeks/months/years ago can be... difficult.

Not quite.

I was pointing out that the paradigm of the chomsky heirarchy is
limiting in that it has failed to provide us with the tools we need to
design software for CAM architectures which would seem to enable, with
today's technology, several orders of magnitude more performance per
transistor than is possible with von-neuman machines because millions of
bits could be computed per clock cycle instead of a few thousand...

Of course there could be problems with the idea of the cellular automata
as being an optimal computing architecture. In any event, computronium
is not just a fabrication issue, it's also a computer science issue.


-- 
DO NOT USE OBAMACARE.
DO NOT BUY OBAMACARE.
Powers are not rights.



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  8 12:22:49 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 08:22:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <20101207215103.GV9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<002501cb9563$ec6230b0$c5269210$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinqvzKyKh37zNDSpi4RhBPyTT=NwA+64DDJE3kN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEZrvBZuZRcKwRPpHgv0OxGxScA4eu4Zrp6wO8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207131457.GS9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=8wSWCwEyiymySa8hfLNqbW6AiZAXSjM01Hkiv@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207143856.GU9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTim43FtWYfZm14Se=nBx+2bS3rT56WgSsBA5hQx7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207213447.GQ9434@leitl.org> <20101207215103.GV9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinDAx6_WXOfFdYqtwp8WD=Mq24LGMSqFXRtW+e1@mail.gmail.com>

Eugen:

Thanks for this. Very useful information here, especially if I decide to
leak something. :) Seriously though, thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed
it.  I learn a lot from people on this list.

Darren

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 10:34:47PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> > The people doing the hiding need only to install a piece of hardware.
>
> I usually don't bother self-correcting, but this one is of course software,
> not hardware. (Though, of course, said software installed on disposable
> hardware (aka plug computer) and installed in random, undocumented
> locations adds some considerable mischief to the mix).
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec  8 16:47:45 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 11:47:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <4CFE8DAD.6000302@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>
	<53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
	<4CFE8DAD.6000302@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1866C35E-7486-42A0-A8EE-BD3A76075B49@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 7, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
> So a Cornell professor publishing a peer-reviewed paper in one of the most prestigious journals of his discipline

The most prestigious in his discipline? That's a little like being the thinest kid at fat camp.

> fails the test of being somebody you respect

Yep.

> simply because you don't like his results.

Simply because his results are incredible, and not in the good sense. Simply because his experiment employes no new instruments or methods so with only slight variation it could have been employed in the 17th century. Simply because if this distinguished Cornell professor really did know the tail end of his gastrointestinal tract from a hole in the ground the existence of psi would have been demonstrated to everyone satisfaction 400 years ago, and it wasn't. Simply because I believe, and you do too apparently, that nobody worth a damn will successfully reproduce his results and Bem's work will have zero effect on the development of science or technology.      

> The term "barricaded prejudice" comes to mind. At this point you're just being ridiculous. Awaiting further replication is sensible; implying that Bem and the journal's reviewers and editors are liars and idiots is... not.

I'm not implying that Bem and the journal's reviewers and editors are liars or idiots. I'm saying as overtly as I can that Bem and the journal's reviewers and editors are liars or idiots; and I think history will prove me correct just as it did the last time we had a similar conversation. But if you think I'm wrong this time you know how to make money off my error.

 John K Clark



> 

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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec  8 17:01:45 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:01:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
Message-ID: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>

A pal writes:

This morning reading the news on my iPad, I noticed that SpaceX was going
to launch their Falcon 9 rocket with the first flight of their Dragon
cargo spacecraft in an hour.  This launch is the first time a commercial
company has a license to re-enter a spacecraft from orbit.  I'd been to a
Shuttle launch before back in 1983 (the first night launch), so I wondered
what it would be like.  Now I don't follow space activities that closely
anymore, but I figured they would have a webcast and I was right.

It was incredible.

The launch was a beautiful explosion of light and sound.  And the audio
wasn't the polished NASA media speak.   It felt real.

Within 5 min of launch, the first stage separated and the video from the
rocket showed the curve of the Earth in space.  It was like I was on the
rocket being lifted off into orbit peering out the porthole.

I felt like I was an old time rocketeer who had just gone out to the space
port to watch the rockets take off on lazy sunday afternoon.  Kinda like
the thrill that I imagined in all those 1950s SF stories.  Private
companies launching rockets almost to the point of becoming routine.

Fiction become reality.

Thanks to all the SF writers and their imaginations who inspired these
people (and many others) to dream big.  We're getting there.  Not in the
way I imagined, nor as quickly, but better with the internet as we can all
observe.

Now I'm off to see if they are going to webcast the re-entry in a couple
of hours.

===========

Some video at

<http://gizmodo.com/5709153/the-first-private-orbital-spacecraft-launch>




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec  8 16:57:35 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 11:57:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative
	LinkBetween	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <201012072340.oB7NeJmm020289@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201012072340.oB7NeJmm020289@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4DB84E9D-C724-415D-95E4-68468BE564C5@bellsouth.net>

spike wrote:
> 
>> 
> we know god is a bastard

But god is real, unless declared an integer. 

 John K Clark





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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  8 17:16:31 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:16:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX Falcon on orbit?
Message-ID: <42103.27905.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Seems like they launched successfully a few minutes ago.

Regards,

Dan


      
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec  8 17:52:36 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:52:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers
	Quantitative	LinkBetween	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <4DB84E9D-C724-415D-95E4-68468BE564C5@bellsouth.net>
References: <201012072340.oB7NeJmm020289@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4DB84E9D-C724-415D-95E4-68468BE564C5@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <007801cb9700$b374edd0$1a5ec970$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:58 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative LinkBetween Quantum
Non-Locality and Uncertainty.

 

spike wrote:





we know god is a bastard

 

But god is real, unless declared an integer. 

 

 John K Clark

 

 

That bastards who invented that system should be scorned.  In mathematics,
all integers are real.  Computer science should not have used that
terminology.  The use of the term integer is OK, but instead of real, the
floating point variable should have been called. floating point, or decimal
or EE or something besides real.  Real is taken.

 

Computer science is filled with mathematical ugliness.  Consider the command

 

X = X+1

 

Aaaarg!

 

To a mathematics fan, it just looks wrong and ugly.  It is = abuse.  It
implies that 1=0.  

 

We know it is shorthand, and actually means

 

X(t+1) = X(t) + 1

 

but I have never liked the shorthand version of it.  The FORTRAN guys set
the precedent, which messed up a lot of later computer languages.  They
should have used the <- symbol as ADA does, instead of the =, because
dammit, = is sacred!  When you see = that means the stuff on the left of
that = is the same as the stuff on the right!  = is powerful!  It forms the
basis for =ity, which is good.  = should always = = and only =.  Otherwise
it sounds like ".depends on what your definition of is is." Well, is is is,
and = = =!  = is is! Is = =!

 

I = }8-[ about integer not = real.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Dec  8 17:59:14 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 12:59:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Damien wrote:

>The launch was a beautiful explosion of light and sound.  And the audio
>wasn't the polished NASA media speak.   It felt real.

I heard about it in time to watch the feed from SpaceX.

I love that the launch was delayed a day by a crack in a nozzle that
they fixed by trimming the nozzle 4". Imagine the launch delay if
this had been NASA.

Only downside was the propulsion engineer who looked like he'd
stepped out of a 1980s porn movie.

Next question is whether it splashes down without incident.


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec  8 19:23:52 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 13:23:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <1866C35E-7486-42A0-A8EE-BD3A76075B49@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>	<53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>	<4CFE8DAD.6000302@satx.rr.com>
	<1866C35E-7486-42A0-A8EE-BD3A76075B49@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4CFFDB48.1030203@satx.rr.com>

On 12/8/2010 10:47 AM, John Clark wrote:

> I'm not implying that Bem and the journal's reviewers and editors are
> liars or idiots. I'm saying as overtly as I can that Bem and
> the journal's reviewers and editors are liars or idiots; and I think
> history will prove me correct just as it did the last time we had a
> similar conversation. But if you think I'm wrong this time you know how
> to make money off my error.

I am not a lawyer, but I suspect you've just provided Professor Bem with 
an opportunity to make money from you.

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec  8 19:13:07 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 11:13:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <009601cb970b$f2d411d0$d87c3570$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
...

>...Only downside was the propulsion engineer who looked like he'd stepped
out of a 1980s porn movie.-- David.


I don't understand, why is that the *down* side?  I can imagine some 80s
porn star looking at him or herself in the mirror after a hard day's night
and moaning, Ah Jeez, I looked like stepped out of some 2010 propulsion
engineering job.

spike









From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec  8 19:31:58 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 13:31:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>
	<53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4CFFDD2E.7040309@satx.rr.com>

On 12/7/2010 12:44 PM, John Clark wrote:

> I recall that well over a decade ago you urged me to read some other
> long forgotten psi experiment that was hot at the time, I don't recall
> my exact response but it was along the lines of that it would be a
> complete waste of time and I'd rather watch paint dry. Time has proven
> my judgment correct as that experiment has entered the black hole of
> oblivion,

John, I don't recall what this was, and my computers have suffered 
terrible atrocities since then. Since I understand that you still have a 
complete file of old ExI posts, could you retrieve that and let me know 
which psi experiment you're talking about? I'm guessing it would be a 
physiological presentiment experiment of the same general kind that Bem 
works with now, and if so it certainly hasn't vanished into oblivion, 
it's part of the growing body of empirical evidence for this effect. If 
it is, Bem's paper is just the kind of replication of the effect that 
you denied would ever be published in a serious peer reviewed scientific 
journal.

Damien Broderick



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec  8 19:48:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 11:48:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <009a01cb9710$e7bbb320$b7331960$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of David Lubkin...

>...I love that the launch was delayed a day by a crack in a nozzle that
they fixed by trimming the nozzle 4"...

This is a perfectly reasonable way to deal with this kind of problem.
Experiment: take a piece of paper, make a 3 inch tear, take hold either side
of the tear and pull apart.  Note how little force it takes to increase the
length of the tear.  This is kinda analogous to crack propagation by stress
concentration.  Aluminum is especially bad for this.

Now cut 4 inches off to completely take away the tear, making sure to
include the end of the tear where the stress concentration was.  Now take
either side and pull, note how much force is required to start a new tear.

Cutting 4" off the nozzle would reduce its performance some, cost ya a few
percent, since the exhaust would be more underexpanded on exit (which sounds
like a contradiction in terms) but the nozzle would still work.  You just
need to have had enough margin to start with.

>... Imagine the launch delay if this had been NASA...

Ja.  NASA seldom went with the poor man's approach to anything.  In the
nozzle example, they sometimes used nozzles which circulated cryo-fuels thru
the nozzle itself, which heated and turned the fuel to gas before injecting
into the combustion chamber, while cooling the nozzle simultaneously.
Cooool, high performance, but a very expensive approach, and of course if
you get a crack anywhere in that kind of nozzle it is unlikely to be
repairable, so that one goes to the scrap heap, which is already piled high
with expensive hardware.

If you ever get a chance to see 60s era NASA space hardware, you will marvel
at how high techy everything is.  The term gold-plated is an understatement:
they actually used 20 karat gold as solder in a bunch of their circuit
boards.  Makes beautiful hardware, do let me assure you, but that approach
is expensive as all hell.  I am happy to see alternatives coming up. 

Good luck and nobodyspeed SpaceX!  {8-]

spike









From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Dec  8 19:42:01 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 14:42:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers
 Quantitative	LinkBetween	Quantum	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <007801cb9700$b374edd0$1a5ec970$@att.net>
References: <201012072340.oB7NeJmm020289@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4DB84E9D-C724-415D-95E4-68468BE564C5@bellsouth.net>
	<007801cb9700$b374edd0$1a5ec970$@att.net>
Message-ID: <dc0619324b6efdf7093142b0cbbe7907.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


> I = }8-[ about integer not = real.
>
>

Thank you, spike! :)

Regards,
MB



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  8 20:06:12 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 12:06:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yahoo says it splashed down and was recovered.

Regards,

Dan


From: David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 12:59:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch

Damien wrote:

>The launch was a beautiful explosion of light and sound.? And the audio
>wasn't the polished NASA media speak.? It felt real.

I heard about it in time to watch the feed from SpaceX.

I love that the launch was delayed a day by a crack in a nozzle that
they fixed by trimming the nozzle 4". Imagine the launch delay if
this had been NASA.

Only downside was the propulsion engineer who looked like he'd
stepped out of a 1980s porn movie.

Next question is whether it splashes down without incident.


-- David.

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Dec  8 21:54:01 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 16:54:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Dan wrote:

>Yahoo says it splashed down and was recovered.

I just watched the press conference with Musk et al on NASA TV. 
Everything worked
better than they'd planned. 17 of 18 engines were fine, 1 burbled. 1 
of 3 chutes
needed to land, but all worked. Wanted to land within 10 km of 
target, looks like it
was 800 m. All comm systems worked. Landed within 50 seconds of pre-launch
prediction. Heat shields designed for Mars or lunar re-entry; heated 
to 1% of capacity.
Launched a micro-sat for the Army from the second stage (first Army 
launch in 50
years). Flight would have been nominal for passengers -- max 5G. NASA 
said if this
went well, they'd okay the next flight going to the ISS; Musk expects 
this will happen.
Only downside is that they didn't get the first stage, but he says 
that wasn't a mission
goal. Coming soon -- LEM-style landing on helipad, retaining the 
fallback to parachute.


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec  8 22:54:11 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 16:54:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>

anyone have access to the full text?


Jonah Lehrer, Annals of Science, ?The Truth Wears Off,? The New Yorker, 
December 13, 2010, p. 52
Read the full text of this article in the digital edition. (Subscription 
required.)
December 13, 2010 Issue

ABSTRACT: ANNALS OF SCIENCE about the decline effect. On September 18, 
2007, a few dozen neuroscientists, psychiatrists, and drug-company 
executives gathered in a hotel conference room in Brussels to hear some 
startling news. It had to do with a class of drugs known as atypical or 
second-generation antipsychotics, which came on the market in the early 
nineties. The therapeutic power of the drugs appeared to be steadily 
falling. A recent study showed an effect that was less than half of that 
documented in the first trials, in the early nineties. Before the 
effectiveness of a drug can be confirmed, it must be tested again and 
again. The test of replicability, as it?s known, is the foundation of 
modern research. It?s a safeguard for the creep of subjectivity. But now 
all sorts of well-established, multiply confirmed findings have started 
to look increasingly uncertain. It?s as if our facts are losing their 
truth. This phenomenon doesn?t yet have an official name, but it?s 
occurring across a wide range of fields, from psychology to ecology. 
When Jonathan Schooler was a graduate student at the University of 
Washington, he discovered a surprising phenomenon having to do with 
language and memory that he called verbal overshadowing. While Schooler 
was publishing his results in journals, he noticed that it was proving 
difficult to replicate his earlier findings. Mentions psychologist 
Joseph Banks Rhine, who conducted several experiments dealing with 
E.S.P. In 2004, Schooler embarked on an imitation of Rhine?s research in 
an attempt to test the decline effect. The most likely explanation for 
the decline is an obvious one: regression to the mean. Yet the effect?s 
ubiquity seems to violate the laws of statistics. Describes Anders 
M?ller?s discovery of the theory of fluctuating asymmetry in sexual 
selection. Mentions Leigh Simmons and Theodore Sterling. Biologist 
Michael Jennions argues that the decline effect is largely a product of 
publication bias. Biologist Richard Palmer suspects that an equally 
significant issue is the selective reporting of results?that is, the 
subtle omissions and unconscious misperceptions, as researchers struggle 
to make sense of their results. Mentions John Ioannidis. In the late 
nineteen-nineties, neuroscientist John Crabbe investigated the impact of 
unknown chance events on the test of replicability. The disturbing 
implication of his study is that a lot of extraordinary scientific data 
is nothing but noise. This suggests that the decline effect is actually 
a decline of illusion. Many scientific theories continue to be 
considered true even after failing numerous experimental tests. The 
decline effect is troubling because it reminds us how difficult it is to 
prove anything.


Read more 
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer#ixzz17Yvyi1Kl






--




From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Dec  8 23:27:15 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:27:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20101208182715.23ykllu0lc8wgscs@webmail.natasha.cc>

Thanks for posting this.

N

Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:

> anyone have access to the full text?
>
>
> Jonah Lehrer, Annals of Science, ?The Truth Wears Off,? The New Yorker,
> December 13, 2010, p. 52
> Read the full text of this article in the digital edition.
> (Subscription required.)
> December 13, 2010 Issue
>
> ABSTRACT: ANNALS OF SCIENCE about the decline effect. On September 18,
> 2007, a few dozen neuroscientists, psychiatrists, and drug-company
> executives gathered in a hotel conference room in Brussels to hear some
> startling news. It had to do with a class of drugs known as atypical or
> second-generation antipsychotics, which came on the market in the early
> nineties. The therapeutic power of the drugs appeared to be steadily
> falling. A recent study showed an effect that was less than half of
> that documented in the first trials, in the early nineties. Before the
> effectiveness of a drug can be confirmed, it must be tested again and
> again. The test of replicability, as it?s known, is the foundation of
> modern research. It?s a safeguard for the creep of subjectivity. But
> now all sorts of well-established, multiply confirmed findings have
> started to look increasingly uncertain. It?s as if our facts are losing
> their truth. This phenomenon doesn?t yet have an official name, but
> it?s occurring across a wide range of fields, from psychology to
> ecology. When Jonathan Schooler was a graduate student at the
> University of Washington, he discovered a surprising phenomenon having
> to do with language and memory that he called verbal overshadowing.
> While Schooler was publishing his results in journals, he noticed that
> it was proving difficult to replicate his earlier findings. Mentions
> psychologist Joseph Banks Rhine, who conducted several experiments
> dealing with E.S.P. In 2004, Schooler embarked on an imitation of
> Rhine?s research in an attempt to test the decline effect. The most
> likely explanation for the decline is an obvious one: regression to the
> mean. Yet the effect?s ubiquity seems to violate the laws of
> statistics. Describes Anders M?ller?s discovery of the theory of
> fluctuating asymmetry in sexual selection. Mentions Leigh Simmons and
> Theodore Sterling. Biologist Michael Jennions argues that the decline
> effect is largely a product of publication bias. Biologist Richard
> Palmer suspects that an equally significant issue is the selective
> reporting of results?that is, the subtle omissions and unconscious
> misperceptions, as researchers struggle to make sense of their results.
> Mentions John Ioannidis. In the late nineteen-nineties, neuroscientist
> John Crabbe investigated the impact of unknown chance events on the
> test of replicability. The disturbing implication of his study is that
> a lot of extraordinary scientific data is nothing but noise. This
> suggests that the decline effect is actually a decline of illusion.
> Many scientific theories continue to be considered true even after
> failing numerous experimental tests. The decline effect is troubling
> because it reminds us how difficult it is to prove anything.
>
>
> Read more
> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer#ixzz17Yvyi1Kl
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat






From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec  8 23:37:43 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 23:37:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> anyone have access to the full text?
>
>
> Jonah Lehrer, Annals of Science, ?The Truth Wears Off,? The New Yorker,
>


Ask and ye shall receive........

<http://crayz.org/science.pdf>



BillK



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec  9 01:18:22 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 19:18:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D002E5E.8080000@satx.rr.com>

On 12/8/2010 5:37 PM, BillK wrote:

> Ask and ye shall receive........

Triffic, thanks!


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec  9 02:58:34 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:58:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601cb974c$f8892fc0$e99b8f40$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> anyone have access to the full text?
>
>> Jonah Lehrer, Annals of Science, "The Truth Wears Off," The New Yorker,
>
>Ask and ye shall receive...<http://crayz.org/science.pdf>  BillK

Is it not a remarkable coincidence that the efficacy of any medication tends
to decline in such a way that it reaches zero at the exact moment the patent
on that medication expires.  Fortunately, there is always a new medication
with a fresh patent, that appears to be miraculously effective in treating
whatever malady the now-defunct medication once cured.

spike









From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 12:43:29 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:43:29 +0000
Subject: [ExI] META: Finance: USAians - Get your property tax appeal in
	quick!
Message-ID: <AANLkTinLxnL1FkCJpRF50=nO-BGSpBO4LA+4Qou_jQQg@mail.gmail.com>

Tax Appeals Swamp U.S. Cities, Towns as Property Prices Plunge

A fiscal flood that threatens to swamp local government budgets across
the U.S. overflows from file cabinets in the office of Patty Halm,
chair of the Michigan Tax Tribunal.

The backlog of cases from taxpayers seeking to lower property-tax
bills of more than $100,000 shot up to 14,236 this year from an annual
average of about 6,000 during the past decade. The backlog of smaller
claims was at 28,558 at the end of September, eight times higher than
a decade ago, according to records at the tribunal, a Lansing-based
administrative court.

<http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-08/plunging-home-prices-fuel-property-tax-appeals-swamping-u-s-cities-towns.html>



BillK


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Dec  9 13:31:01 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:31:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Dan wrote:

>Reminds me of that saying about "six degrees of separation."

There's an interesting question here. We talk about dangerous ideas.
There are people here, or who used to be here, or who are sufficiently
linked to us, who do things.

Now it's Assange. Last year, I noted that I was in several future-tech
groups in LinkedIn with Russian spy Anna Chapman. Tim May was
a regular back when, and seems to have gone off the bend. Of course,
Keith has had his ... challenges with the Elron crowd. And much of
what we discuss is deeply threatening to (shall we say) neo-Luddites.

Not that it's just here. Joel Rosenberg from my SFWA world was
recently arrested for carrying guns into a courthouse (a deliberate act
of civil disobedience; he posted a video on YouTube). And some of
the players in the TSA screening furor are libertarian activists, a
degree away from being guests at my parties.

Since some of us have known each other for thirty years or more,
we're not likely to be untangleable. Natasha was concerned enough
about our affecting Alcor last year to nix discussion here.

I'm not going anywhere, but I have a nagging suspicion about whose
enemies lists we might be on.


-- David.



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  9 13:17:20 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 05:17:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] PSI, PSI*, and Psi
Message-ID: <625847.26314.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

http://www.npl.washington.edu/npl/int_rep/tiqm/TI_toc.html

While I myself?had, during my college classes, been indoctrinated into the?"shut 
up and calculate" school of quantum mechanics,?here is a description of an 
interpretation of quantum mechanics that does stimulate?my imagination. I find 
it more parsimonious than the many worlds interpretation and it certainly is an 
improvement over the Copenhagen interpretation because?it gives me a mental 
picture of what's going on without offending my?credulity,?the way MWI does.

It explains?amongst other things,?where the Born rule comes from and also 
explains what PSI* is. As I was?educated by standard academia on the subject of 
QM, ?PSI* was always explained simply?as the complex conjugate of PSI, the wave 
equation, and we had to keep track of it because we used it to calculate the 
probability?of a particular quantum state which was equal?PSI X PSI*.?Never did 
anyone explain why PSI* is important in the mathematical formalism of QM?other 
than as a mathematical trick to convert a complex numbered?probability amplitude 
into a real numbered probability.

In the transactional interpretation, PSI* is the?equation of the "confirmation 
wave"?which is?a wave propagating backward in time (an advanced wave)?from the 
absorber of a quantum of energy to the emitter of a quantum of energy. While the 
normal PSI is the "offer wave" propagating forward in time (a retarded wave) 
from the emitter to the absorber. If the phases of the?offer wave and the 
conformation wave contructively interfere, you get a "transaction"?that is an 
event where?a?quantum of energy is transfererred from the emitter to the 
absorber.

It turns out that electromagnetic?waves propagating backwards in time were part 
of the mathematical formalism of physics as far back as Maxwell's equations 
where the?terms "advanced waves" and "retarded waves" were coined. It just so 
happened that physicists of Maxwell's era would simply discard the advanced 
waves as meaningless mathematical artifacts. While?advanced waves don't show up 
in solutions to the standard?Shrodinger's equation, which were largely time 
independant, they do show up in Dirac's?relativistic QM equations.

I am still trying to wrap my head around?this particular interpretation but it 
is noteworthy that the perception of?advanced waves might be?the 
elusive?mechanism by which?the paranormal phenomenon of Psi manifests itself. I 
mean, it wouldn't be the first time that the math knew more about what's going 
on than the physicist. Just think of the?cosmological constant and Einstein's 
self-admitted biggest blunder.????
?Stuart LaForge 


"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower 



      



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Dec  9 13:43:21 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:43:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Ja, and it feels to me like they blame the wrong guy.  Everywhere it 
>is Assange this and Assange that, but they shoot the 
>messenger.  More guilty is PFC Manning, but even then, the real 
>leakers are those who put anything potentially damaging on any 
>network that had computers with a flash drive anywhere in the system.

There are two aspects, which both need to be safeguarded. Can you access
secure information and can you remove it from the secure location? There
needs to be both technical and human monitoring, appropriate to the
information being protected.

Safeguarding against this was already old tech thirty years ago. Limit what
people have access to. Log what they do access. Raise a flag if they're
trying to do more than they should be.

In this case, the bare fact of the leaks means that someone (presumably PFC
Manning) *did* access enough material that, even if it was part of his job,
a security event should have triggered that mandated prompt alerting of and
then review by a security officer. He did get it out from his secure 
workspace,
whether by removable media or by network. And he did slip through the
safeguards that are supposed to weed out people who will pass along
classified information.


-- David.



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Dec  9 13:56:05 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:56:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:31:01AM -0500, David Lubkin wrote:

> I'm not going anywhere, but I have a nagging suspicion about whose
> enemies lists we might be on.

It's pretty well known that TLAs do FOAF network clustering,
and of course if persecution level is dialed up sufficiently high
such lists act as a self denial of service, which would be self
defeating, unless you're into tabula rasa approaches a la
Mr. Dzhugashvili. And these typically take some setup time,
so there's plenty of warning.

So apart from nutters, which are rare, I wouldn't worry too much.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 14:44:40 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:44:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
	<201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikYjeaeZtUYKECG4dE5PbVVL8sSDv+airHXC9pa@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 1:43 PM, David Lubkin wrote:
> There are two aspects, which both need to be safeguarded. Can you access
> secure information and can you remove it from the secure location? There
> needs to be both technical and human monitoring, appropriate to the
> information being protected.
>
> Safeguarding against this was already old tech thirty years ago. Limit what
> people have access to. Log what they do access. Raise a flag if they're
> trying to do more than they should be.
>
> In this case, the bare fact of the leaks means that someone (presumably PFC
> Manning) *did* access enough material that, even if it was part of his job,
> a security event should have triggered that mandated prompt alerting of and
> then review by a security officer. He did get it out from his secure
> workspace, whether by removable media or by network. And he did slip
> through the safeguards that are supposed to weed out people who will pass
> along classified information.
>
>


The problem is that in the internet age security is actually a very
hard problem.
All large organisations are struggling to solve this problem.
And organisations don't come much larger than the US government.

Manning accessed SIPRNet.
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SIPRNet>
Quote:
A 1993 GAO report estimated more than 3 million US military and
civilian personnel had clearance, and access is also available to a
"...small pool of trusted allies, including Australia, Canada, the
United Kingdom and New Zealand...".
-------

So, try and secure that!   Not only US computers, but allies computers as well.

The big problem with role-based security is that staff roles change
all the time. And it is difficult to decide what level the 'need to
know' stops at. So most organisations give people more clearance than
they need, 'just in case'.
Staff regard security as an obstacle to doing their job and quickly
find ways to bypass security measures that get in their way.
Everything from holding the security door open, to passwords stuck on
the screen, to 'Can I borrow your signon for this job?'


If you want a hopeful spin on all this, it is that perhaps the US
government will adopt the 'Don't be evil' motto. If you don't behave
badly then you don't have to worry if your security fails. And, of
course, if you don't behave in ways that make people despise or hate
you, this is an additional security measure because then your staff
won't be motivated to harm or expose your misdeeds.


BillK


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  9 14:40:23 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 06:40:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] CQT Researcher Uncovers Quantitative Link Between Quantum
	Non-Locality and Uncertainty.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1291896001.12247.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <504936.9234.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> frothed:

> Computer science is filled with mathematical
> ugliness.? Consider the command
> 
> X = X+1
> 
> Aaaarg!
> 
> To a mathematics fan, it just looks wrong and ugly.?
> It is = abuse.? It
> implies that 1=0.? 
> 
> We know it is shorthand, and actually means
> 
> X(t+1) = X(t) + 1
> 
...

> dammit, = is sacred!? When you see = that means the
> stuff on the left of
> that = is the same as the stuff on the right!

In maths, yes.
In programming, no.

OK, some programming languages are worse than others, but in most of the decent ones, = means only one thing, assignment, and == means the stuff on the left is equal to the stuff on the right, but it's still not the same as maths equality, because it can be true or false.  In maths, it's only allowed to be true.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.  It's not maths.  It's an instruction, not a description.  And you're using an example from a pretty awful language, as well.  X++ is a better example.  That can't be confused with any mathematical statement (afaik).

I don't understand what X(t+1) = X(t) + 1 is, or what it has to do with the operation of adding one to X.  In maths, its a valid statement, in programming, its not.


>? = is
> powerful!? It forms the
> basis for =ity, which is good.? = should always = =
> and only =.? Otherwise
> it sounds like ".depends on what your definition of is is."


It depends on the context you are using it in, as does everything else.

You might as well complain that psychologists are misusing the term 'positive' because positive people don't attract negatively-charged objects.


> is is is, and = = =!  = is is! Is = =!


but = != !=

:>>

Ben Zaiboc


      



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  9 14:28:46 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 06:28:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the update. It sounds like an all around success.

What I'm really waiting to see is private launcher to a private space station -- 
not a private launcher that's merely another government contractor.

Regards,

Dan


From: David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 4:54:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch

Dan wrote:

> Yahoo says it splashed down and was recovered.

I just watched the press conference with Musk et al on NASA TV. Everything 
worked
better than they'd planned. 17 of 18 engines were fine, 1 burbled. 1 of 3 chutes
needed to land, but all worked. Wanted to land within 10 km of target, looks 
like it
was 800 m. All comm systems worked. Landed within 50 seconds of pre-launch
prediction. Heat shields designed for Mars or lunar re-entry; heated to 1% of 
capacity.
Launched a micro-sat for the Army from the second stage (first Army launch in 50
years). Flight would have been nominal for passengers -- max 5G. NASA said if 
this
went well, they'd okay the next flight going to the ISS; Musk expects this will 
happen.
Only downside is that they didn't get the first stage, but he says that wasn't a 
mission
goal. Coming soon -- LEM-style landing on helipad, retaining the fallback to 
parachute.

-- David.
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


      
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Dec  9 15:09:43 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:09:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <201012091508.oB9F8jgK011255@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Eugen wrote:

>So apart from nutters, which are rare, I wouldn't worry too much.

As I noted, our friends (e.g., Keith) have already attracted the attention
of nutters who keep enemies lists, so it's not all that rare.

I'm personally less concerned about governmental TLAs. I was working
with classified material when I was twelve, so it's really late for me to
avoid being in someone's file.


-- David.



From anders at aleph.se  Thu Dec  9 14:49:33 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 14:49:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4D00EC7D.9080303@aleph.se>

Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> It's pretty well known that TLAs do FOAF network clustering,
> and of course if persecution level is dialed up sufficiently high
> such lists act as a self denial of service, which would be self
> defeating, unless you're into tabula rasa approaches a la
> Mr. Dzhugashvili. And these typically take some setup time,
> so there's plenty of warning.
>   

I wonder how sensitive these algorithms are to salting? Suppose each of 
us joins a randomly selected sinister group/mailinglist, or a random 
group in general, what would that do to the network clustering? From 
what I know of network clustering algorithms, this could mess up 
statistics with noise fairly well. Of course, TLAs and network 
sociologists are working on robust estimators and pattern finding. But 
even against robust algorithms, in some data mining domains it is known 
that an aware enemy can mess up classification (even when the algorithm 
is unknown).

It is fun to run this kind of network analysis. One can use it against 
one's enemies too - I am somewhat worried about "DIY illuminati 
software" making it so easy to mine and attack social networks that we 
get a lot of social noise.

> So apart from nutters, which are rare, I wouldn't worry too much

No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. 
(proud recipient of two crazy missives today)

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University 



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Dec  9 15:21:45 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:21:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikYjeaeZtUYKECG4dE5PbVVL8sSDv+airHXC9pa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
	<201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikYjeaeZtUYKECG4dE5PbVVL8sSDv+airHXC9pa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101209152145.GX9434@leitl.org>

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 02:44:40PM +0000, BillK wrote:

> The problem is that in the internet age security is actually a very
> hard problem.

The Internet has nothing to do with it.

> All large organisations are struggling to solve this problem.
> And organisations don't come much larger than the US government.
> 
> Manning accessed SIPRNet.

Which is not top-secret (nevermind higher classification),
so really nothing to see here, move along.

Still enough egg on collective faces to be pulled the plug on.
The network is down, but the practices continue.

> <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SIPRNet>
> Quote:
> A 1993 GAO report estimated more than 3 million US military and
> civilian personnel had clearance, and access is also available to a
> "...small pool of trusted allies, including Australia, Canada, the
> United Kingdom and New Zealand...".
> -------
> 
> So, try and secure that!   Not only US computers, but allies computers as well.

Typically you compartmentalize by need to know basis. You can use
smart tokes for authentication and serve information keyed to said
token, and use secure terminals in secure location. It is also
easy to log access, lock out on recognized access patterns, introduce
watermarks to each analyst account. Just because it has not been
done in this case it doesn't mean it can't be done. 
 
> The big problem with role-based security is that staff roles change
> all the time. And it is difficult to decide what level the 'need to

If you don't revoke access when the role changed than you know what
you're doing wrong (or right) already.

> know' stops at. So most organisations give people more clearance than
> they need, 'just in case'.

Spooks are not most organisations.

> Staff regard security as an obstacle to doing their job and quickly
> find ways to bypass security measures that get in their way.

You know what do with such staff.

> Everything from holding the security door open, to passwords stuck on
> the screen, to 'Can I borrow your signon for this job?'

In some places, that's a firing offense. Of the court-martial firing-squad
kind.
 
> If you want a hopeful spin on all this, it is that perhaps the US
> government will adopt the 'Don't be evil' motto. If you don't behave

You're really funny.

> badly then you don't have to worry if your security fails. And, of
> course, if you don't behave in ways that make people despise or hate
> you, this is an additional security measure because then your staff
> won't be motivated to harm or expose your misdeeds.

The world doesn't work that way.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 14:41:01 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 15:41:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <003601cb974c$f8892fc0$e99b8f40$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<003601cb974c$f8892fc0$e99b8f40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=F+M6Dqje6ZEP+Ss_YPDesLrfMSSdwpk4yu_d=@mail.gmail.com>

A very pragmatic, common sense and probably correct explanation of this
effect.

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Dec 9, 2010 4:12 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > anyone have
access to the full text? > >...
Is it not a remarkable coincidence that the efficacy of any medication tends
to decline in such a way that it reaches zero at the exact moment the patent
on that medication expires.  Fortunately, there is always a new medication
with a fresh patent, that appears to be miraculously effective in treating
whatever malady the now-defunct medication once cured.

spike

_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists....
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 16:15:57 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:15:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Light Touch Brightens Nanotubes [Rice University]
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=EuS-EmCycchwtBQW=-PWgA9eKuYHPGKNk=YoF@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=15137
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Dec  9 16:04:17 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:04:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <4CFFDB48.1030203@satx.rr.com>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>	<53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>	<4CFE8DAD.6000302@satx.rr.com>
	<1866C35E-7486-42A0-A8EE-BD3A76075B49@bellsouth.net>
	<4CFFDB48.1030203@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <526510F4-5333-43ED-A12E-115DB6255C0E@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 8, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
>> I'm not implying that Bem and the journal's reviewers and editors are
>> liars or idiots. I'm saying as overtly as I can that Bem and
>> the journal's reviewers and editors are liars or idiots; and I think
>> history will prove me correct just as it did the last time we had a
>> similar conversation. But if you think I'm wrong this time you know how
>> to make money off my error.
> 
> I am not a lawyer, but I suspect you've just provided Professor Bem with an opportunity to make money from you.

Given our idiotic legal system you could be right. James (The Amazing) Randi has been sued by Uri Geller many times for pointing out the obvious fact that the man was a fraud, and one time he even won; a court in Japan found Randi guilty not of libel but of "insult", in Japan it can be illegal to say something bad about someone even if its true. Science writer Simon Singh was sued for pointing out the obvious fact that Homeopathic medicine, drugs that have been diluted so much that not even one of the molecules could remain, could not work. Singe eventually won the case but not before paying out over a million dollars in legal bills and putting his writing career on hold for over a year. Astrologers have sued newspapers for saying it didn't work, and in Israel a politician of all people was convicted of pointing out on live television the obvious fact that a prominent local astrologer was a fake. The junk science people have learned how to use the legal system. 

 John K Clark      



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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Dec  9 16:51:55 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:51:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <20101209152145.GX9434@leitl.org>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
	<201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikYjeaeZtUYKECG4dE5PbVVL8sSDv+airHXC9pa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101209152145.GX9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <201012091650.oB9Govpc015503@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Eugen wrote:

> > Everything from holding the security door open, to passwords stuck on
> > the screen, to 'Can I borrow your signon for this job?'
>
>In some places, that's a firing offense. Of the court-martial firing-squad
>kind.

Remember Feynman's stories about security at Los Alamos during the
Manhattan Project? Security lapses are still common, whether by Poobahs
who think the rules don't apply to *them* or (particularly) engineers and
scientists who prefer to ignore any rules that don't make sense to *them*.
Part of the problem is that a typical security officer is a mockable dullard.

>if you don't behave in ways that make people despise or hate
>you, this is an additional security measure because then your staff
>won't be motivated to harm or expose your misdeeds.

As I recall, money was the universal solvent for intelligence recruitment.
It was both a primary inducement and locked in people who'd initially
been recruited on another basis (blackmail, ideology, etc.).


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec  9 17:06:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:06:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
	<201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <005a01cb97c3$7e7c3fc0$7b74bf40$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks

Spike wrote:

>>Ja, and it feels to me like they blame the wrong guy...the real leakers
are those who 
>>put anything potentially damaging on any network that had computers 
>>with a flash drive anywhere in the system.

>There are two aspects, which both need to be safeguarded. Can you access
secure information and can you remove it from the secure location? There
needs to be both technical and human monitoring, appropriate to the
information being protected.

>Safeguarding against this was already old tech thirty years ago. Limit what
people have access to. Log what they do access. Raise a flag if they're
trying to do more than they should be.

>In this case, the bare fact of the leaks means that someone (presumably PFC
Manning) *did* access enough material ... And he did slip through the
safeguards that are supposed to weed out people who will pass along
classified information.  -- David.


There is an interesting aspect of this which is consistently being
overlooked in the mainstream press.  *Any* info that can be downloaded on a
flash drive is not legitimately classified info, even if it is improperly
marked as such.  If anyone put actual classified info on that kind of
system, that person is in big trouble, and may lose their clearance.  Any
info on an open system like that cannot be verified as having not been
corrupted.  There is no control over what Assange or anyone else could have
composed, deleted or inserted among apparent diplomatic posts.  None of this
material is of any value, and isn't worth the effort to comb thru it.

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec  9 17:19:40 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:19:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <005b01cb97c5$43cf6d50$cb6e47f0$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:31:01AM -0500, David Lubkin wrote:

>> I'm not going anywhere, but I have a nagging suspicion about whose
enemies lists we might be on...

>So apart from nutters, which are rare, I wouldn't worry too much.--Eugen*
Leitl 


Hope you are right Eugen.  I have been appalled to see in modern times
*blasphemy* returning to the status of a crime in too many places, including
the USA.  Pakistan is trying to decide if it will hang a blasphemer.  Good
thing I don't live there.

spike














From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  9 17:42:17 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:42:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=F+M6Dqje6ZEP+Ss_YPDesLrfMSSdwpk4yu_d=@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<003601cb974c$f8892fc0$e99b8f40$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=F+M6Dqje6ZEP+Ss_YPDesLrfMSSdwpk4yu_d=@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <617792.34179.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This seems similar to sports arenas. Before their built, those lobbying for them 
(the sports franchises, the building contractors, potential concession owners, 
etc.)?pull out all kinds of studies showing how the arena, to be built at public 
expense, is going to bring in more money to the community and pay for itself. 
But then, years later, when the same lobbying groups want to tear down the old 
arena and build a new one, they pull out all kinds of studies showing how the 
old?arena?actually cost the community money and shouldn't merely be repaired, 
but, of course, the newly proposed one will "bring in more money to the 
community and pay for itself." Yet few seen to recall these promises?were made 
the last time around.

Regards,

Dan

From: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 9:41:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off


A very pragmatic, common sense and probably correct explanation of this effect. 
--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799
On Dec 9, 2010 4:12 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>... On Behalf Of BillK
>Subject: Re: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
>
>On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > anyone have access to 
>the full text? > >...Is it not a remarkable coincidence that the efficacy of any 
>medication tends
>to decline in such a way that it reaches zero at the exact moment the patent
>on that medication expires. ?Fortunately, there is always a new medication
>with a fresh patent, that appears to be miraculously effective in treating
>whatever malady the now-defunct medication once cured.
>
>spike
>
>_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list 
>extropy-chat at lists....


      
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 17:26:03 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:26:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>

First, get a private space station.

Until then, launching to what space station there is will have to suffice,
so far as the launcher end of things is concerned.

2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> Thanks for the update. It sounds like an all around success.
>
> What I'm really waiting to see is private launcher to a private space
> station -- not a private launcher that's merely another government
> contractor.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> From: David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 4:54:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch
>
> Dan wrote:
>
>> Yahoo says it splashed down and was recovered.
>
> I just watched the press conference with Musk et al on NASA TV. Everything
> worked
> better than they'd planned. 17 of 18 engines were fine, 1 burbled. 1 of 3
> chutes
> needed to land, but all worked. Wanted to land within 10 km of target, looks
> like it
> was 800 m. All comm systems worked. Landed within 50 seconds of pre-launch
> prediction. Heat shields designed for Mars or lunar re-entry; heated to 1%
> of capacity.
> Launched a micro-sat for the Army from the second stage (first Army launch
> in 50
> years). Flight would have been nominal for passengers -- max 5G. NASA said
> if this
> went well, they'd okay the next flight going to the ISS; Musk expects this
> will happen.
> Only downside is that they didn't get the first stage, but he says that
> wasn't a mission
> goal. Coming soon -- LEM-style landing on helipad, retaining the fallback to
> parachute.
>
> -- David.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec  9 18:27:35 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 12:27:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] PSI, PSI*, and Psi
In-Reply-To: <625847.26314.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <625847.26314.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D011F97.5060109@satx.rr.com>

On 12/9/2010 7:17 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> I am still trying to wrap my head around this particular interpretation but it
> is noteworthy that the perception of advanced waves might be the
> elusive mechanism by which the paranormal phenomenon of Psi manifests itself.

It sounds as if the TI is new to you, Stuart. It seems to me that some 
TI version is the only way to make sense of the empirical world as I 
understand it (including presentiment, etc). But Cramer's approach has 
been critiqued in, e.g., Michael Price's Many World's FAQ:

<http://www.hedweb.com/everett/everett.htm>

< 5) Transactional model [C]. Explicitly non-local. An imaginative 
theory, based on the Feynman-Wheeler absorber-emitter model of EM, in 
which advanced and retarded probability amplitudes combine into an 
atemporal "transaction" to form the Born probability density. It 
requires that the input and output states, as defined by an observer, 
act as emitters and absorbers respectively, but not any internal states 
(inside the "black box"), and, consequently, suffers from the familiar 
measurement problem of the Copenhagen interpretation.

If the internal states did act as emitters/absorbers then the 
wavefunction would collapse, for example, around one of the double slits 
(an internal state) in the double slit experiment, destroying the 
observed interference fringes. In transaction terminology a transaction 
would form between the first single slit and one of the double slits and 
another transaction would form between the same double slit and the 
point on the screen where the photon lands. This never observed.>

Damien Broderick


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 17:36:32 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 13:36:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <4D00EC7D.9080303@aleph.se>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org> <4D00EC7D.9080303@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ctjuKjxhO_i5V5TL0tDMw9SaL1uAuhW9pQBaw@mail.gmail.com>

Anders wrote:

>No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. (proud
recipient of two crazy missives today)<

Since 2001 it's been very difficult to determine who may be nutters and who
may not. Someone mentioned the likelihood of people on this group being on
enemy lists (can't find the post now but I know I read it.) I can say from
experience it doesn't take much to make them. After the U.S. invaded Iraq I
began writing some unflattering essays on U.S. foreign and domestic security
policy and published some of them in a book of essays released in 2005 in
Canada. It was then that I began to notice some unusual traffic on my .ca
website -- U.S. government agencies, including the FBI, were regularly
crawling it. Hardly anyone read or bought that book, but someone apparently
noticed it. I took the site down eventually.

A few years later when living in California I became friends with an
infamous gay pornographer who had been called by a Tuft's University
professor in a lecture on 21st century morality "the embodiment of the
post-human." Because of this friendship, I again went on the U.S.
intelligence radar. I am now the proud owner of an FBI file. I would not
even have known this much if I hadn't been introduced in San Francisco to an
ex-FBI agent who was a friend of a friend. I really don't understand the
world of intelligence and enemy lists and national security anyway. The
lines between what is considered subversive activity, and even thinking, and
what is civically acceptable are so blurred that the whole thing has become
one big, sinister mess.

It was easier in the old days, when you could be black-listed for carrying a
copy of Das Capital across the border but the kind of sex you preferred
would only affect your chances for getting elected to public office.


Darren


On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
>>
>> It's pretty well known that TLAs do FOAF network clustering,
>> and of course if persecution level is dialed up sufficiently high
>> such lists act as a self denial of service, which would be self
>> defeating, unless you're into tabula rasa approaches a la
>> Mr. Dzhugashvili. And these typically take some setup time,
>> so there's plenty of warning.
>>
>>
>
> I wonder how sensitive these algorithms are to salting? Suppose each of us
> joins a randomly selected sinister group/mailinglist, or a random group in
> general, what would that do to the network clustering? From what I know of
> network clustering algorithms, this could mess up statistics with noise
> fairly well. Of course, TLAs and network sociologists are working on robust
> estimators and pattern finding. But even against robust algorithms, in some
> data mining domains it is known that an aware enemy can mess up
> classification (even when the algorithm is unknown).
>
> It is fun to run this kind of network analysis. One can use it against
> one's enemies too - I am somewhat worried about "DIY illuminati software"
> making it so easy to mine and attack social networks that we get a lot of
> social noise.
>
>
>  So apart from nutters, which are rare, I wouldn't worry too much
>>
>
> No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. (proud
> recipient of two crazy missives today)
>
> --
> Anders Sandberg,
> Future of Humanity Institute
> Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec  9 19:45:52 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 13:45:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] New Yorker article: The Truth Wears Off
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=F+M6Dqje6ZEP+Ss_YPDesLrfMSSdwpk4yu_d=@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinG=iiC9JoiukxbH4HMrjeCGuNm55P-uE7eBOgQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4D000C93.3090603@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTin9yPBHwZ6j7jAUNFqVg7+SUgvQ5ukKan01Hadc@mail.gmail.com>	<003601cb974c$f8892fc0$e99b8f40$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=F+M6Dqje6ZEP+Ss_YPDesLrfMSSdwpk4yu_d=@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D0131F0.5010206@satx.rr.com>

>> On Dec 9, 2010 4:12 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net

>> Is it not a remarkable coincidence that the efficacy of any medication
>> tends to decline in such a way that it reaches zero at the exact moment the
>> patent on that medication expires.

On 12/9/2010 8:41 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote:
 > A very pragmatic, common sense and probably correct explanation of this
 > effect.

It's hard to see how that applies to most of the cases mentioned in the 
article under discussion, and the attempted generalization from Dr. 
Schooler's findings.

Does corporate manipulation really explain why observed symmetry in barn 
swallows declines over time? Why "a wide range of subjects in ecology 
and evolutionary biology" shows decline effects (according to the article)?

Damien Broderick


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  9 20:46:00 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:46:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=ctjuKjxhO_i5V5TL0tDMw9SaL1uAuhW9pQBaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org> <4D00EC7D.9080303@aleph.se>
	<AANLkTi=ctjuKjxhO_i5V5TL0tDMw9SaL1uAuhW9pQBaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <612553.76224.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I don't think that's true. Sexual preferences?have often been used to blackmail 
people -- and, in terms of security, has often been seen as a liability because 
someone might be blackmailed. In other words, if you were gay and in the closet, 
this might be seen as a way that foreign agents might manipulate you -- even if 
you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in their pay, or perhaps had a 
desire to change history.

Regards,

Dan


From: Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 12:36:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.

Anders wrote:
>No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. (proud 
>recipient of two crazy missives today)< 
>

Since 2001 it's been very difficult to determine who may be nutters and who may 
not. Someone mentioned the likelihood of people on this group being on enemy 
lists (can't find the post now but I know I read it.) I can say from experience 
it doesn't take much to make them. After the U.S. invaded Iraq I began writing 
some unflattering essays on U.S. foreign and domestic security policy and 
published some of them in a book of essays released in 2005 in Canada. It was 
then that I began to notice some unusual traffic on my .ca website -- U.S. 
government agencies, including the FBI, were regularly crawling it. Hardly 
anyone read or bought that book, but someone apparently noticed it. I took the 
site down eventually.

A few years later when living in California I became friends with an infamous 
gay pornographer who had been called by a Tuft's University professor in a 
lecture on 21st century morality "the embodiment of the post-human." Because of 
this friendship, I again went on the U.S. intelligence radar. I am now the proud 
owner of an FBI file. I would not even have known this much if I hadn't been 
introduced in San Francisco to an ex-FBI agent who was a friend of a friend. I 
really don't understand the world of intelligence and enemy lists and national 
security anyway. The lines between what is considered subversive activity, and 
even thinking, and what is civically acceptable are so blurred that the whole 
thing has become one big, sinister mess.?

It was easier in the old days, when you could be black-listed for carrying a 
copy of Das Capital across the border but the kind of sex you preferred would 
only affect your chances for getting elected to public office.?

?
Darren


      
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  9 20:42:02 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:42:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <169969.1441.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I believe it's already being worked on by Bigelow, no?

Regards,

Dan


From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 12:26:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch

First, get a private space station.

Until then, launching to what space station there is will have to suffice,
so far as the launcher end of things is concerned.

2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> Thanks for the update. It sounds like an all around success.
>
> What I'm really waiting to see is private launcher to a private space
> station -- not a private launcher that's merely another government
> contractor.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan


      
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 21:36:18 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:36:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks
Message-ID: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 12:15 PM,   David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:

snip

>  And he did slip through the
> safeguards that are supposed to weed out people who will pass along
> classified information.

>From what I have heard, he seemed to be a reasonably patriotic sort of
guy before he (for some reason) got to reading the materials.  The
trouble with weeding out is that you can't catch people who change
after you have decided they are safe.

On the other hand, perhaps the guy is still a patriot who just thinks
what he found was so off the rails that it needed to be corrected and
this was the only way he figured it could be done.  It's a problem you
get from people running up against real life when they have been
taught American idealism in school.

I was taught that one of the functions of the government is to protect
people from criminals, not act in concert with them.  Silly me.

There are perhaps 10-50,000 people who know that the wife of a certain
cult leader I should not name has been missing for years now, locked
up in a private prison or maybe even dead.  Hundreds of those are law
enforcement people.  Will any one of them look into the matter?  Far
as I know, they won't even consider it.

Keith


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Dec  9 21:36:40 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:36:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 09:26:03AM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> First, get a private space station.

The interesting part is getting >300 kg to LEO. Plasma
thrusters will go a long way.
 
> Until then, launching to what space station there is will have to suffice,
> so far as the launcher end of things is concerned.

Please do not top-post and please trime your mail.
 
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Dec  9 21:49:40 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:49:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <169969.1441.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<169969.1441.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20101209214940.GD9434@leitl.org>

.

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 12:42:02PM -0800, Dan wrote:
> I believe it's already being worked on by Bigelow, no?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 12:26:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch
> 
> First, get a private space station.
> 
> Until then, launching to what space station there is will have to suffice,
> so far as the launcher end of things is concerned.
> 
> 2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> > Thanks for the update. It sounds like an all around success.
> >
> > What I'm really waiting to see is private launcher to a private space
> > station -- not a private launcher that's merely another government
> > contractor.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dan
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Dec  9 21:49:55 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 22:49:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <612553.76224.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org> <4D00EC7D.9080303@aleph.se>
	<AANLkTi=ctjuKjxhO_i5V5TL0tDMw9SaL1uAuhW9pQBaw@mail.gmail.com>
	<612553.76224.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20101209214955.GE9434@leitl.org>

.


On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 12:46:00PM -0800, Dan wrote:
> I don't think that's true. Sexual preferences?have often been used to blackmail 
> people -- and, in terms of security, has often been seen as a liability because 
> someone might be blackmailed. In other words, if you were gay and in the closet, 
> this might be seen as a way that foreign agents might manipulate you -- even if 
> you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in their pay, or perhaps had a 
> desire to change history.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> From: Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 12:36:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.
> 
> Anders wrote:
> >No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. (proud 
> >recipient of two crazy missives today)< 
> >
> 
> Since 2001 it's been very difficult to determine who may be nutters and who may 
> not. Someone mentioned the likelihood of people on this group being on enemy 
> lists (can't find the post now but I know I read it.) I can say from experience 
> it doesn't take much to make them. After the U.S. invaded Iraq I began writing 
> some unflattering essays on U.S. foreign and domestic security policy and 
> published some of them in a book of essays released in 2005 in Canada. It was 
> then that I began to notice some unusual traffic on my .ca website -- U.S. 
> government agencies, including the FBI, were regularly crawling it. Hardly 
> anyone read or bought that book, but someone apparently noticed it. I took the 
> site down eventually.
> 
> A few years later when living in California I became friends with an infamous 
> gay pornographer who had been called by a Tuft's University professor in a 
> lecture on 21st century morality "the embodiment of the post-human." Because of 
> this friendship, I again went on the U.S. intelligence radar. I am now the proud 
> owner of an FBI file. I would not even have known this much if I hadn't been 
> introduced in San Francisco to an ex-FBI agent who was a friend of a friend. I 
> really don't understand the world of intelligence and enemy lists and national 
> security anyway. The lines between what is considered subversive activity, and 
> even thinking, and what is civically acceptable are so blurred that the whole 
> thing has become one big, sinister mess.?
> 
> It was easier in the old days, when you could be black-listed for carrying a 
> copy of Das Capital across the border but the kind of sex you preferred would 
> only affect your chances for getting elected to public office.?
> 
> ?
> Darren
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 22:28:45 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:28:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 09:26:03AM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>> First, get a private space station.
>
> The interesting part is getting >300 kg to LEO. Plasma
> thrusters will go a long way.

Indeed.  I would very much like to see viable plasma thrusters that can
generate 1G+ of thrust.  The trick seems to be either generating or storing
that much plasma, without ruining the thrust to weight ratio (when including
the plasma generating/storing equipment, including any power supplies
that need to be carried by the rocket).

I wonder if there's a chemical reaction that can take its reactants up to
plasma phase, without need of external input?

>> Until then, launching to what space station there is will have to suffice,
>> so far as the launcher end of things is concerned.
>
> Please do not top-post and please trime your mail.

Please typo-check and please don't quote entire emails without adding
anything but a period and your signature (as your email immediately
following this one did).


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 22:30:26 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 14:30:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <169969.1441.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<169969.1441.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimmNGpOpGGok2t3vnxRm-j5ZWuoFmXcmm8W-XMr@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> I believe it's already being worked on by Bigelow, no?

"Being worked on" is not the same as actually having a
private space station in orbit.  Until that happens, no
private launcher can actually launch to it - so they have
to settle for launching to the ISS.


From scerir at alice.it  Thu Dec  9 22:49:11 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir at alice.it)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 23:49:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] R:  PSI, PSI*, and Psi
Message-ID: <23634886.250491291934951769.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Stuart, you are right, even more than in TI, the idea of two times is developed in 
the two-state time-symmetric quantum mechanics where the kets |> and the bras <| 
have .... opposite 'times'. But the original idea is written already in one of the fundamental 
papers by Schroedinger (circa 1926-1927)
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0507269 
http://arxiv.org/abs/0706.1347
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0606208
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0105101
		Alice				body {margin:0;padding:0;}				#footer { height:13px; font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, FreeSans, sans-serif; color:#ADADAD; margin:0; padding:7px 12px; text-align:right; border-top:1px solid #dcdcdc; }		#footer a { text-decoration:none; color:#ADADAD; }		#footer a:hover { color:#848484; }				Inviato dalla nuova Alice mail	
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec  9 23:03:41 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 15:03:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>	<20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601cb97f5$52dbcf70$f8936e50$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
...

>I wonder if there's a chemical reaction that can take its reactants up to
plasma phase, without need of external input? Adrian

No.  The ionization energy and Gibbs free energy numbers for all the
elements are enough to prove there is no magic chemical reaction waiting to
be discovered.  Those numbers show that hydrogen and oxygen is waaay good,
with only wacky hard to control stuff like hydrogen and fluorine being
better.  If we could handle liquid fluorine we could do *a little* better
than the hydrogen and oxygen reaction, but we might have complaints from the
local proletariat should we leave behind huge clouds of hydrofluoric acid
etching to opacity the windshields on their Detroits and so forth.  {8^D

You could theoretically make plasma with a self contained chemical reaction
if you superheat the reactants before you combine them, but I don't think
that is what you meant.  That would wreck the nozzle in any case.

spike











From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 23:19:55 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 19:19:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <612553.76224.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>
	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org> <4D00EC7D.9080303@aleph.se>
	<AANLkTi=ctjuKjxhO_i5V5TL0tDMw9SaL1uAuhW9pQBaw@mail.gmail.com>
	<612553.76224.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikX=541njGn32WUsQ+HDycMg4jdQ8uT-vqgyegO@mail.gmail.com>

Dan wrote:

>Sexual preferences have often been used to blackmail people -- and, in
terms of security, has often been seen as a liability because someone might
be blackmailed. In other words, if you were gay and in the closet, this
might be seen as a way that foreign agents might manipulate you -- even if
you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in their pay, or perhaps had
a desire to change history.<

This was an issue in the 90's but not anymore, at least not in my country.
Here's a quote from website I just googled that deals with security
clearance issues in the U.S.

Of the approximately 1160 cases decided by administrative judges at Defense
Office of Hearings and Appeals (DOHA) in 2009 only 36 cited ?Sexual
Behavior? as a security/suitability issue. Almost all of these 36 cases
involved criminal conduct, and about half involved criminal convictions for
sexual offenses. Only 2 cases cited extramarital affairs, and both of these
cases involved current sexual relationships about which their spouses were
unaware. Involvement with prostitutes was cited in 4 cases, 5 cases cited
possession of child pornography, and 15 cases cited sexual acts with
children. The remaining cases involved voyeurism, exhibitionism, and
compulsive, self-destructive viewing of pornography.

It goes on to say that:

sodomy, promiscuity, adultery, group sex, cyber-sex, swinging, pornography,
sadism, masochism, fetishism, bondage and degradation, homosexuality,
bisexuality, transsexualism, and transvestism are not disqualifying
conditions for a security clearance.

Full article here.

http://www.clearancejobs.com/cleared-news/117/sexual-behavior-and-security-clearances

The irony with the policy even when it was in effect was that the majority
of gay men and women I knew in the 90's with high security clearance in
federal positions stayed in the closet not because of their fear of public
exposure but because if they did come out they would lose their clearance
and jobs.  If  you did come out, you lost your clearance because it was said
you could be black-mailed. If you didn't, you kept the clearance but then
you really could be black-mailed, depending on the level of your fear of
exposure. If you admitted to being gay in the job interview or if it turned
up in your security back-ground check, you got neither the job nor the
clearance.

The whole thing was simply bigotry disguised as policy, in my opinion.
Although it's not polite to say it, and no-one ever does, a long-time friend
in the Canadian diplomatic core informed me that the bronze statue of Sir
Lancelot in front of the peace tower in Ottawa was cast in the likeness of
Prime Minster Lester B Pearson's young male lover. And he won the nobel
peace prize. Pearson, I mean. I don't think the young guy won anything. To
my knowledge.

Darren

2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>

> I don't think that's true. Sexual preferences have often been used to
> blackmail people -- and, in terms of security, has often been seen as a
> liability because someone might be blackmailed. In other words, if you were
> gay and in the closet, this might be seen as a way that foreign agents might
> manipulate you -- even if you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in
> their pay, or perhaps had a desire to change history.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> *From:* Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Sent:* Thu, December 9, 2010 12:36:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.
>
> Anders wrote:
>
> >No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. (proud
> recipient of two crazy missives today)<
>
> Since 2001 it's been very difficult to determine who may be nutters and who
> may not. Someone mentioned the likelihood of people on this group being on
> enemy lists (can't find the post now but I know I read it.) I can say from
> experience it doesn't take much to make them. After the U.S. invaded Iraq I
> began writing some unflattering essays on U.S. foreign and domestic security
> policy and published some of them in a book of essays released in 2005 in
> Canada. It was then that I began to notice some unusual traffic on my .ca
> website -- U.S. government agencies, including the FBI, were regularly
> crawling it. Hardly anyone read or bought that book, but someone apparently
> noticed it. I took the site down eventually.
>
> A few years later when living in California I became friends with an
> infamous gay pornographer who had been called by a Tuft's University
> professor in a lecture on 21st century morality "the embodiment of the
> post-human." Because of this friendship, I again went on the U.S.
> intelligence radar. I am now the proud owner of an FBI file. I would not
> even have known this much if I hadn't been introduced in San Francisco to an
> ex-FBI agent who was a friend of a friend. I really don't understand the
> world of intelligence and enemy lists and national security anyway. The
> lines between what is considered subversive activity, and even thinking, and
> what is civically acceptable are so blurred that the whole thing has become
> one big, sinister mess.
>
> It was easier in the old days, when you could be black-listed for carrying
> a copy of Das Capital across the border but the kind of sex you preferred
> would only affect your chances for getting elected to public office.
>
>
> Darren
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 00:06:06 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:06:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <000601cb97f5$52dbcf70$f8936e50$@att.net>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>
	<000601cb97f5$52dbcf70$f8936e50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin2zVWSdEs3v=HJKxxV0gen3C+MfaokJ8RXd+Bm@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:03 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> You could theoretically make plasma with a self contained chemical reaction
> if you superheat the reactants before you combine them, but I don't think
> that is what you meant. ?That would wreck the nozzle in any case.

If one can superheat the fuel anyway, one might as well simply superheat it
directly to plasma and don't bother reacting it.  Unless one includes a
short-lived fusion reactor as part of the engine, of course.

Then again, that's "short-lived" as in "approximately 10 minutes", whereas with
modern experimental fusion reactors, 10 seconds is considered a very long
reaction.  (Which makes me wonder how they think they'll get it to commercial
practicality, which requires sustained power output for hours at least.  I also
can't help but wonder if engineering for extremely short reactions is part of
the reason why big fusion reactors have not produced progress
commensurate with their expense.)

Might anyone know of experiments in long duration plasma containment?



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 10 00:58:35 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 18:58:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
Message-ID: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5M9UTlDb10>


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 01:12:09 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:12:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik=m4vs86Qo3vKZc0BCnZ_KDHFzLvvHxL_uL0wX@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for posting Damien. Big Johnathon Coulton fan here.  My favourite is
The Mandelbrot Set song, with the video made by some Cornell students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES-yKOYaXq0

Darren

2010/12/9 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>

> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5M9UTlDb10>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 10 01:27:38 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:27:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>

I suppose that should have been a "Soylent Night" Xmas...

Damien Broderick


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Dec  9 22:43:52 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:43:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Halcyon Molecular interview
Message-ID: <AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5@mail.gmail.com>

Halycon Molecular interview
http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/interview-of-gene-sequencing-expert.html

"""
Here is the William Andregg interview by Sander Olson. Mr. Andregg is the
CEO and founder of Halcyon Molecular <http://halcyonmolecular.com/updates/>.
Along with his brother, Michael, William invented the core polymer placement
technology which allows rapid and inexpensive sequencing of DNA. Mr. Andregg
is confident that by 2015 complete human genomes will be sequenced for only
$1,000. He believes that DNA sequencing will eventually become sufficiently
sophisticated, automated, and inexpensive that scientists will be able to
sequence every tree in a forest, and may lead to advanced nanotechnology.

In a recent episode of TechCrunch TV?s ?Speaking Of..?, Halcyon Molecular
CEO William Andregg spoke about his dream to extend human lifespans long
enough to travel to other star systems. William explains how his early focus
on astronomy and physics eventually gave way to intense study of biology for
that reason. In the video, he says how he is fascinated by long-living
creatures like the Gal?pagos tortoise and bowhead whale, and expresses
optimism about how advanced biotechnology could determine their
longevity-relevant molecular differences and use that knowledge to develop
life-extension therapies for humans.

*Question*: How much does it currently cost to sequence ones genome?

*Answer*: Depends on what you mean by ?sequence ones genome?. If you want a
truly complete sequence, you can?t get that now. You could spend millions of
dollars and you still wouldn?t have even a single truly complete human
genome. There are much cheaper options to get something far less accurate
and useful- getting down to about $10,000 currently. But we?re hoping that
in five years when people talk about ?sequencing ones genome?, they really
mean it- really sequencing the whole thing, not just seeing part of it.

*Question*: How much of the entire human genome have we currently sequenced?

*Answer*: The most comprehensive reference assembly for the human genome
still contains hundreds of gaps as of 2010, with millions and millions of
missing bases.

*Question*: Current gene sequencing techniques employ short reads. What is
the limitation with this approach?

*Answer*: Think of jigsaw puzzles. If a jigsaw puzzle has just a few big
pieces like the ones they make for three year olds, it?s trivial to solve.
But if it has tens of thousands of pieces like some expert-level jigsaw
puzzles do, then it?s going to be a huge pain. That?s current sequencing
technology. Short reads are the tiny jigsaw puzzle pieces. We want to solve
the puzzle of the genome using the biggest pieces possible.

*Question*: So does that also help make the sequencing faster as well?

*Answer*: Yes, it makes putting the whole genome together less
computationally intensive and thereby faster. It also improves the overall
accuracy because with longer reads you can be more confident in the ordering
of repetitive regions.

*Question*: You claim that DNA sequencing has the potential to "turn
medicine into an information science". What exactly do you mean by that?

*Answer*: Taking the guesswork out of it, making it a precise, predictive
science and less an art. In ten years you?ll have orders of magnitude more
information about your own body and biology, and the sequencing revolution
will be a big part of that. Biomedical researchers will also have orders of
magnitude more information in general about how life works, and how health
turns to illness.


*Question*: How do your views on longevity and life extension compare with
those of Aubrey de Grey and Ray Kurzweil?

*Answer*: Parts of SENS urgently should be funded and tested. That being
said, I work on sequencing and not on SENS, because our approach to curing
aging is first to turn biology into an information science- actually getting
to untangling the morass of metabolism that SENS does an end run around. I
believe we can get to a complete mechanistic understanding of human biology
in only a few decades, which is a timeline more like Kurzweil?s. On the
other hand, if SENS were being vigorously pursued today, it might save
millions of lives before the total understanding approach avails us. It is
good to have multiple bets.

As for Kurzweil, maybe this isn?t fair, and I?d like to hear his thoughts on
it, but I?m afraid his books demotivate people who would otherwise
contribute to the cause, maybe by giving the impression to some that the
Singularity is not only coming, but actually inevitable. Eat right,
exercise, take these pills, and don?t worry- those smart hardworking
scientists over there will solve everything for you. In contrast, a great
thing about Aubrey as a leader is that he harangues people to actually get
off their asses and make a contribution.

We might not survive the next twenty years. We may never cure aging. There
is nothing inevitable about our success. Everyone who is talented enough to
make a contribution should be trying to help, on all fronts, by any ethical
means, like it?s life and death- because it is.

And the very most talented ones should send their resumes immediately to
Halcyon.

*Question*: How will high-throughput DNA sequencing directly benefit
longevity research?

*Answer*: We?ll sequence the genomes of every centenarian and every
supercentenarian, and find out which genes directly relate to longevity and
to early morbidity and mortality. We?ll sequence long-lived organisms, like
the Galapagos tortoise, the bowhead whale, the bristlecone pine. We?ll
sequence all species of Rockfish, a whole genus where there?s almost an
order of magnitude difference in maximum lifespans between evolutionary
close cousins. And all of that just scrapes the iceberg- that?s not even the
imaginative or ambitious answer.

The grand design is to read, write, program DNA. The better and faster and
cheaper you do that, the sooner we?ll hack biology and be free from disease.
Billions of individual human genomes, and billions of genomes of
domesticated animals, is only the beginning. The amount of genomic
information on this planet that might help us hack biology is orders of
magnitude vaster than that. You have quadrillions of unique genomes in your
body, counting the metagenome of all your individual genomically different
cells and the metagenome of all the stuff living in and on you. Someone will
probably want to sequence every tree in a forest, or every leaf on a tree,
or every bacterium in a speck of seawater. Someone will definitely sequence
every ear of corn in a cornfield. We?ll probably sequence all the
charismatic megafauna we can find on the planet, and all the trillions of
less glamorous animals as well. But even that is only the beginning. People
will do forward genetics studies where they sequence trillions of individual
cells or model organisms. And there may be just as much or more sequencing
of artificial genomes or genetic constructs in the course of solving
synthetic biology- the writing and programming part of the grand design.
Tangentially, synthetic biology might be the least insanely difficult way to
robust nanotechnology, making anything you want from spoons to space
elevators, just like your cells build things with atomic precision all the
time, using a billion year old programming language that we aim to
completely understand. And so sequencing might turn out to be upstream of a
lot more than merely freeing humanity from all disease.

*Question*: Is Halcyon Molecular expanding? Are there any plans for an IPO?

*Answer*: Expanding carefully, with an extremely high bar. We only want the
best of the best, of the best of the best of the best- iterating that to
somewhere way above the 99th percentile. And the team we?ve built so far is
like that, just unbelievably good. I think the level of talent in the
Halcyon project might be every bit as elite as it was in the teams that
worked on the Manhattan or Apollo projects. And given what we?re trying to
do, that?s exactly how it should be.
As for the IPO question, if doing an IPO is consistent with the mission,
we?ll do it. Halcyon is a mission with a company, not the other way around.
Right now only people who care first and foremost about the mission have
significant stock in the company. We?d have to think long and hard about
letting that change.

*Question*: Who is funding Halcyon?

*Answer*: Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Founders Fund, and several angels. We?ve
also won about three million dollars in grants from NIH and other government
agencies.

*Question*: How long will it take before sequencing the human genome falls
to $1,000?

*Answer*: Well, right now it has infinity to fall from, because you can?t
buy a complete human genome yet at any price. But as soon as that?s
available- I think 2012 is a good guess- then we?ll see a thousand dollar
complete genome in 2013.

*Question*: How much progress in this field can be expected by 2020?

*Answer*: Probably depends on how many of your most brilliant readers send
me their CV?s today. Individual choices are what really matter to the arc of
history.
"""

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 02:55:26 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 19:55:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
	<4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>

I was really hoping the human family would be rescued, but I suppose
they were being realistic...  Well, at least Eliezer's friendly AI
programming kept them from being exterminated!  ; )

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

John

On 12/9/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> I suppose that should have been a "Soylent Night" Xmas...
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 03:39:56 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 20:39:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] rocke fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
Message-ID: <AANLkTimVko8DEwQyEaCOGfwOf53cr_GVmNtDT2zawNhk@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:41 PM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> ...
>
>>I wonder if there's a chemical reaction that can take its reactants up to
> plasma phase, without need of external input? Adrian
>
> No. ?The ionization energy and Gibbs free energy numbers for all the
> elements are enough to prove there is no magic chemical reaction waiting to
> be discovered. ?Those numbers show that hydrogen and oxygen is waaay good,
> with only wacky hard to control stuff like hydrogen and fluorine being
> better. ?If we could handle liquid fluorine we could do *a little* better
> than the hydrogen and oxygen reaction, but we might have complaints from the
> local proletariat should we leave behind huge clouds of hydrofluoric acid
> etching to opacity the windshields on their Detroits and so forth. ?{8^D

Spike is correct here.  The best you can do with hydrogen and oxygen
is about 4.5 km/sec exhaust velocity.  You need about twice that to
get a mass ratio 3 rocket into LEO.

Heating hydrogen to 3000 deg K will get you 9.8 km/sec exhaust
velocity.  It's entirely possible to do this with a big laser beam,
several GW, for a reasonable sized vehicle.  3000 deg K is 600 deg
under the melting point of tungsten.

The trick is to co-flow the gas and laser light to reduce the reradiation.

Keith

> You could theoretically make plasma with a self contained chemical reaction
> if you superheat the reactants before you combine them, but I don't think
> that is what you meant. ?That would wreck the nozzle in any case.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 19:19:55 -0400
> From: Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTikX=541njGn32WUsQ+HDycMg4jdQ8uT-vqgyegO at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dan wrote:
>
>>Sexual preferences have often been used to blackmail people -- and, in
> terms of security, has often been seen as a liability because someone might
> be blackmailed. In other words, if you were gay and in the closet, this
> might be seen as a way that foreign agents might manipulate you -- even if
> you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in their pay, or perhaps had
> a desire to change history.<
>
> This was an issue in the 90's but not anymore, at least not in my country.
> Here's a quote from website I just googled that deals with security
> clearance issues in the U.S.
>
> Of the approximately 1160 cases decided by administrative judges at Defense
> Office of Hearings and Appeals (DOHA) in 2009 only 36 cited ?Sexual
> Behavior? as a security/suitability issue. Almost all of these 36 cases
> involved criminal conduct, and about half involved criminal convictions for
> sexual offenses. Only 2 cases cited extramarital affairs, and both of these
> cases involved current sexual relationships about which their spouses were
> unaware. Involvement with prostitutes was cited in 4 cases, 5 cases cited
> possession of child pornography, and 15 cases cited sexual acts with
> children. The remaining cases involved voyeurism, exhibitionism, and
> compulsive, self-destructive viewing of pornography.
>
> It goes on to say that:
>
> sodomy, promiscuity, adultery, group sex, cyber-sex, swinging, pornography,
> sadism, masochism, fetishism, bondage and degradation, homosexuality,
> bisexuality, transsexualism, and transvestism are not disqualifying
> conditions for a security clearance.
>
> Full article here.
>
> http://www.clearancejobs.com/cleared-news/117/sexual-behavior-and-security-clearances
>
> The irony with the policy even when it was in effect was that the majority
> of gay men and women I knew in the 90's with high security clearance in
> federal positions stayed in the closet not because of their fear of public
> exposure but because if they did come out they would lose their clearance
> and jobs. ?If ?you did come out, you lost your clearance because it was said
> you could be black-mailed. If you didn't, you kept the clearance but then
> you really could be black-mailed, depending on the level of your fear of
> exposure. If you admitted to being gay in the job interview or if it turned
> up in your security back-ground check, you got neither the job nor the
> clearance.
>
> The whole thing was simply bigotry disguised as policy, in my opinion.
> Although it's not polite to say it, and no-one ever does, a long-time friend
> in the Canadian diplomatic core informed me that the bronze statue of Sir
> Lancelot in front of the peace tower in Ottawa was cast in the likeness of
> Prime Minster Lester B Pearson's young male lover. And he won the nobel
> peace prize. Pearson, I mean. I don't think the young guy won anything. To
> my knowledge.
>
> Darren
>
> 2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>
>
>> I don't think that's true. Sexual preferences have often been used to
>> blackmail people -- and, in terms of security, has often been seen as a
>> liability because someone might be blackmailed. In other words, if you were
>> gay and in the closet, this might be seen as a way that foreign agents might
>> manipulate you -- even if you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in
>> their pay, or perhaps had a desire to change history.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> *From:* Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Sent:* Thu, December 9, 2010 12:36:32 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.
>>
>> Anders wrote:
>>
>> >No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. (proud
>> recipient of two crazy missives today)<
>>
>> Since 2001 it's been very difficult to determine who may be nutters and who
>> may not. Someone mentioned the likelihood of people on this group being on
>> enemy lists (can't find the post now but I know I read it.) I can say from
>> experience it doesn't take much to make them. After the U.S. invaded Iraq I
>> began writing some unflattering essays on U.S. foreign and domestic security
>> policy and published some of them in a book of essays released in 2005 in
>> Canada. It was then that I began to notice some unusual traffic on my .ca
>> website -- U.S. government agencies, including the FBI, were regularly
>> crawling it. Hardly anyone read or bought that book, but someone apparently
>> noticed it. I took the site down eventually.
>>
>> A few years later when living in California I became friends with an
>> infamous gay pornographer who had been called by a Tuft's University
>> professor in a lecture on 21st century morality "the embodiment of the
>> post-human." Because of this friendship, I again went on the U.S.
>> intelligence radar. I am now the proud owner of an FBI file. I would not
>> even have known this much if I hadn't been introduced in San Francisco to an
>> ex-FBI agent who was a friend of a friend. I really don't understand the
>> world of intelligence and enemy lists and national security anyway. The
>> lines between what is considered subversive activity, and even thinking, and
>> what is civically acceptable are so blurred that the whole thing has become
>> one big, sinister mess.
>>
>> It was easier in the old days, when you could be black-listed for carrying
>> a copy of Das Capital across the border but the kind of sex you preferred
>> would only affect your chances for getting elected to public office.
>>
>>
>> Darren
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
> stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
> Remembrance of the Daleks
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:06:06 -0800
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTin2zVWSdEs3v=HJKxxV0gen3C+MfaokJ8RXd+Bm at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:03 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> You could theoretically make plasma with a self contained chemical reaction
>> if you superheat the reactants before you combine them, but I don't think
>> that is what you meant. ?That would wreck the nozzle in any case.
>
> If one can superheat the fuel anyway, one might as well simply superheat it
> directly to plasma and don't bother reacting it. ?Unless one includes a
> short-lived fusion reactor as part of the engine, of course.
>
> Then again, that's "short-lived" as in "approximately 10 minutes", whereas with
> modern experimental fusion reactors, 10 seconds is considered a very long
> reaction. ?(Which makes me wonder how they think they'll get it to commercial
> practicality, which requires sustained power output for hours at least. ?I also
> can't help but wonder if engineering for extremely short reactions is part of
> the reason why big fusion reactors have not produced progress
> commensurate with their expense.)
>
> Might anyone know of experiments in long duration plasma containment?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 18:58:35 -0600
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
> Message-ID: <4D017B3B.3090200 at satx.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5M9UTlDb10>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:12:09 -0400
> From: Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTik=m4vs86Qo3vKZc0BCnZ_KDHFzLvvHxL_uL0wX at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks for posting Damien. Big Johnathon Coulton fan here. ?My favourite is
> The Mandelbrot Set song, with the video made by some Cornell students.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES-yKOYaXq0
>
> Darren
>
> 2010/12/9 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5M9UTlDb10>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
> stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
> Remembrance of the Daleks
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:27:38 -0600
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
> Message-ID: <4D01820A.7020506 at satx.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> I suppose that should have been a "Soylent Night" Xmas...
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:43:52 -0600
> From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
> To: diybio <diybio at googlegroups.com>, wta-talk at transhumanism.org,
> ? ? ? ?extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
> Subject: [ExI] Halcyon Molecular interview
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Halycon Molecular interview
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/interview-of-gene-sequencing-expert.html
>
> """
> Here is the William Andregg interview by Sander Olson. Mr. Andregg is the
> CEO and founder of Halcyon Molecular <http://halcyonmolecular.com/updates/>.
> Along with his brother, Michael, William invented the core polymer placement
> technology which allows rapid and inexpensive sequencing of DNA. Mr. Andregg
> is confident that by 2015 complete human genomes will be sequenced for only
> $1,000. He believes that DNA sequencing will eventually become sufficiently
> sophisticated, automated, and inexpensive that scientists will be able to
> sequence every tree in a forest, and may lead to advanced nanotechnology.
>
> In a recent episode of TechCrunch TV?s ?Speaking Of..?, Halcyon Molecular
> CEO William Andregg spoke about his dream to extend human lifespans long
> enough to travel to other star systems. William explains how his early focus
> on astronomy and physics eventually gave way to intense study of biology for
> that reason. In the video, he says how he is fascinated by long-living
> creatures like the Gal?pagos tortoise and bowhead whale, and expresses
> optimism about how advanced biotechnology could determine their
> longevity-relevant molecular differences and use that knowledge to develop
> life-extension therapies for humans.
>
> *Question*: How much does it currently cost to sequence ones genome?
>
> *Answer*: Depends on what you mean by ?sequence ones genome?. If you want a
> truly complete sequence, you can?t get that now. You could spend millions of
> dollars and you still wouldn?t have even a single truly complete human
> genome. There are much cheaper options to get something far less accurate
> and useful- getting down to about $10,000 currently. But we?re hoping that
> in five years when people talk about ?sequencing ones genome?, they really
> mean it- really sequencing the whole thing, not just seeing part of it.
>
> *Question*: How much of the entire human genome have we currently sequenced?
>
> *Answer*: The most comprehensive reference assembly for the human genome
> still contains hundreds of gaps as of 2010, with millions and millions of
> missing bases.
>
> *Question*: Current gene sequencing techniques employ short reads. What is
> the limitation with this approach?
>
> *Answer*: Think of jigsaw puzzles. If a jigsaw puzzle has just a few big
> pieces like the ones they make for three year olds, it?s trivial to solve.
> But if it has tens of thousands of pieces like some expert-level jigsaw
> puzzles do, then it?s going to be a huge pain. That?s current sequencing
> technology. Short reads are the tiny jigsaw puzzle pieces. We want to solve
> the puzzle of the genome using the biggest pieces possible.
>
> *Question*: So does that also help make the sequencing faster as well?
>
> *Answer*: Yes, it makes putting the whole genome together less
> computationally intensive and thereby faster. It also improves the overall
> accuracy because with longer reads you can be more confident in the ordering
> of repetitive regions.
>
> *Question*: You claim that DNA sequencing has the potential to "turn
> medicine into an information science". What exactly do you mean by that?
>
> *Answer*: Taking the guesswork out of it, making it a precise, predictive
> science and less an art. In ten years you?ll have orders of magnitude more
> information about your own body and biology, and the sequencing revolution
> will be a big part of that. Biomedical researchers will also have orders of
> magnitude more information in general about how life works, and how health
> turns to illness.
>
>
> *Question*: How do your views on longevity and life extension compare with
> those of Aubrey de Grey and Ray Kurzweil?
>
> *Answer*: Parts of SENS urgently should be funded and tested. That being
> said, I work on sequencing and not on SENS, because our approach to curing
> aging is first to turn biology into an information science- actually getting
> to untangling the morass of metabolism that SENS does an end run around. I
> believe we can get to a complete mechanistic understanding of human biology
> in only a few decades, which is a timeline more like Kurzweil?s. On the
> other hand, if SENS were being vigorously pursued today, it might save
> millions of lives before the total understanding approach avails us. It is
> good to have multiple bets.
>
> As for Kurzweil, maybe this isn?t fair, and I?d like to hear his thoughts on
> it, but I?m afraid his books demotivate people who would otherwise
> contribute to the cause, maybe by giving the impression to some that the
> Singularity is not only coming, but actually inevitable. Eat right,
> exercise, take these pills, and don?t worry- those smart hardworking
> scientists over there will solve everything for you. In contrast, a great
> thing about Aubrey as a leader is that he harangues people to actually get
> off their asses and make a contribution.
>
> We might not survive the next twenty years. We may never cure aging. There
> is nothing inevitable about our success. Everyone who is talented enough to
> make a contribution should be trying to help, on all fronts, by any ethical
> means, like it?s life and death- because it is.
>
> And the very most talented ones should send their resumes immediately to
> Halcyon.
>
> *Question*: How will high-throughput DNA sequencing directly benefit
> longevity research?
>
> *Answer*: We?ll sequence the genomes of every centenarian and every
> supercentenarian, and find out which genes directly relate to longevity and
> to early morbidity and mortality. We?ll sequence long-lived organisms, like
> the Galapagos tortoise, the bowhead whale, the bristlecone pine. We?ll
> sequence all species of Rockfish, a whole genus where there?s almost an
> order of magnitude difference in maximum lifespans between evolutionary
> close cousins. And all of that just scrapes the iceberg- that?s not even the
> imaginative or ambitious answer.
>
> The grand design is to read, write, program DNA. The better and faster and
> cheaper you do that, the sooner we?ll hack biology and be free from disease.
> Billions of individual human genomes, and billions of genomes of
> domesticated animals, is only the beginning. The amount of genomic
> information on this planet that might help us hack biology is orders of
> magnitude vaster than that. You have quadrillions of unique genomes in your
> body, counting the metagenome of all your individual genomically different
> cells and the metagenome of all the stuff living in and on you. Someone will
> probably want to sequence every tree in a forest, or every leaf on a tree,
> or every bacterium in a speck of seawater. Someone will definitely sequence
> every ear of corn in a cornfield. We?ll probably sequence all the
> charismatic megafauna we can find on the planet, and all the trillions of
> less glamorous animals as well. But even that is only the beginning. People
> will do forward genetics studies where they sequence trillions of individual
> cells or model organisms. And there may be just as much or more sequencing
> of artificial genomes or genetic constructs in the course of solving
> synthetic biology- the writing and programming part of the grand design.
> Tangentially, synthetic biology might be the least insanely difficult way to
> robust nanotechnology, making anything you want from spoons to space
> elevators, just like your cells build things with atomic precision all the
> time, using a billion year old programming language that we aim to
> completely understand. And so sequencing might turn out to be upstream of a
> lot more than merely freeing humanity from all disease.
>
> *Question*: Is Halcyon Molecular expanding? Are there any plans for an IPO?
>
> *Answer*: Expanding carefully, with an extremely high bar. We only want the
> best of the best, of the best of the best of the best- iterating that to
> somewhere way above the 99th percentile. And the team we?ve built so far is
> like that, just unbelievably good. I think the level of talent in the
> Halcyon project might be every bit as elite as it was in the teams that
> worked on the Manhattan or Apollo projects. And given what we?re trying to
> do, that?s exactly how it should be.
> As for the IPO question, if doing an IPO is consistent with the mission,
> we?ll do it. Halcyon is a mission with a company, not the other way around.
> Right now only people who care first and foremost about the mission have
> significant stock in the company. We?d have to think long and hard about
> letting that change.
>
> *Question*: Who is funding Halcyon?
>
> *Answer*: Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Founders Fund, and several angels. We?ve
> also won about three million dollars in grants from NIH and other government
> agencies.
>
> *Question*: How long will it take before sequencing the human genome falls
> to $1,000?
>
> *Answer*: Well, right now it has infinity to fall from, because you can?t
> buy a complete human genome yet at any price. But as soon as that?s
> available- I think 2012 is a good guess- then we?ll see a thousand dollar
> complete genome in 2013.
>
> *Question*: How much progress in this field can be expected by 2020?
>
> *Answer*: Probably depends on how many of your most brilliant readers send
> me their CV?s today. Individual choices are what really matter to the arc of
> history.
> """
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 87, Issue 15
> ********************************************
>



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 10 03:52:55 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 19:52:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>	<4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>


On 12/9/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> I suppose that should have been a "Soylent Night" Xmas...
>
> Damien Broderick


Soylent Night, waaaaahahahahahahhaaaaaaa!  {8^D

There is a bit of context that is missing for many of you, who were not
regularly going to movies in 1973 and who missed the original Soylent Green.
I was in late elementary school then, it was rated R, but the ticket takers
were not police, so I was allowed in, while I was supposed to be viewing
Disney's latest vapid fare.

It is amazing to realize that was 38 years ago.  The notion of global
warming had been introduced, as had the competing theory of global cooling,
and both theories had approximately equal standing right then, with the
cooling scenario being far scarier if true.  Right around that time, food
companies were experimenting with soybean meat substitutes.  The early ones
tasted terrible.  But at least they were expensive and unhealthy.

In any case, in the 1973 Soylent Green movie, they made global warming and
Malthusian population explosions terrifying by depicting soy meat
substitutes as the only food available to the proletariat, other than the
proletariat of course, which was the main ingredient in...  Well, rent the
movie.  It's probably one of the best from that era.

Anyone else here see that back in the day?

spike







From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 04:14:22 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:14:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com> <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=fU-4ETaQqm7=pPsbw0pwgj5_HdUnmEztZrxQ9@mail.gmail.com>

I saw Soylent Green years later on television.  The film is regularly
spoken of in the media, and so I think any lover of science fiction
cinema (even if only in their twenties) would know of it.  I miss the
smart kind of science fiction films they made  back in the seventies.
I recently saw the Robert Altman film "Quintet," but that was not near
the caliber of Soylent Green.  I would not be surprised of both films
are eventually remade by Hollywood.


*SPOILER!!!*


I remember when Charleton Heston was hosting Saturday Night-Live, and
he did a comedy skit where he keeps on running down the street saying
things like "computer paper, it's made from people..., people!!!"  And
it ends with his co-workers shrugging their shoulders at his
"revelation," which to them is old old news...

John  ; )


On 12/9/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> On 12/9/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> I suppose that should have been a "Soylent Night" Xmas...
>>
>> Damien Broderick
>
>
> Soylent Night, waaaaahahahahahahhaaaaaaa!  {8^D
>
> There is a bit of context that is missing for many of you, who were not
> regularly going to movies in 1973 and who missed the original Soylent Green.
> I was in late elementary school then, it was rated R, but the ticket takers
> were not police, so I was allowed in, while I was supposed to be viewing
> Disney's latest vapid fare.
>
> It is amazing to realize that was 38 years ago.  The notion of global
> warming had been introduced, as had the competing theory of global cooling,
> and both theories had approximately equal standing right then, with the
> cooling scenario being far scarier if true.  Right around that time, food
> companies were experimenting with soybean meat substitutes.  The early ones
> tasted terrible.  But at least they were expensive and unhealthy.
>
> In any case, in the 1973 Soylent Green movie, they made global warming and
> Malthusian population explosions terrifying by depicting soy meat
> substitutes as the only food available to the proletariat, other than the
> proletariat of course, which was the main ingredient in...  Well, rent the
> movie.  It's probably one of the best from that era.
>
> Anyone else here see that back in the day?
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 04:44:51 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 20:44:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] rocke fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimVko8DEwQyEaCOGfwOf53cr_GVmNtDT2zawNhk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimVko8DEwQyEaCOGfwOf53cr_GVmNtDT2zawNhk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXvAVBjW9CgcckVdALL9A28NfZXPRX-42YUPvf@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Spike is correct here. ?The best you can do with hydrogen and oxygen
> is about 4.5 km/sec exhaust velocity. ?You need about twice that to
> get a mass ratio 3 rocket into LEO.
>
> Heating hydrogen to 3000 deg K will get you 9.8 km/sec exhaust
> velocity. ?It's entirely possible to do this with a big laser beam,
> several GW, for a reasonable sized vehicle. ?3000 deg K is 600 deg
> under the melting point of tungsten.

Could you use tungsten as a heat exchanger?

Have an onboard energy source, optimized for heat generation instead
of thrust.  (Maybe even fission/radioactives, so long as they don't get
into the exhaust.)  Use tungsten to transfer the heat into hydrogen,
which is gently forced past.  The heat greatly increases how fast it
goes when it leaves.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 10 05:12:16 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 23:12:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] rocke fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXvAVBjW9CgcckVdALL9A28NfZXPRX-42YUPvf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimVko8DEwQyEaCOGfwOf53cr_GVmNtDT2zawNhk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikXvAVBjW9CgcckVdALL9A28NfZXPRX-42YUPvf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D01B6B0.10803@satx.rr.com>

On 12/9/2010 10:44 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Could you use tungsten as a heat exchanger?

Damn. I was hoping you could use rocke, we're got too much of it 
cluttering up our back yard.


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 10 05:13:06 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:13:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>	<4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <004e01cb9828$edb6e010$c924a030$@att.net>

John Grigg wrote:

>> On Behalf Of spike
...

>>There is a bit of context that is missing for many of you, who were not
regularly going to movies in 1973 and who missed the original Soylent
Green...

>I saw Soylent Green years later on television.  The film is regularly
spoken of in the media...  I miss the smart kind of science fiction films
they made  back in the seventies.

There was another notable one right about that same time, West World.  In
retrospect, I realize that one had emergent AI, with apparent outloading.
The robots become self-aware and attack.

>...  Right around that time, food companies were experimenting with soybean
meat substitutes.  The early ones tasted terrible.  But at least they were
expensive and unhealthy...spike

Funny story that has nothing to do with anything, but I still laugh when I
think about it.  A long time ago, I was camping with my wife's family at
Mount Rainier.  My then 19 yr old brother-in-law and I went hiking all over
the place, and we came back to camp crazy hungry.  We had soy veggie-dogs,
since he is a strict vegetarian.  Even tho I was half starved, I only ate
two; I detest the wretched things.  But he devoured eight of them, scarfed
them like a pack of rabid wolves.  About three hours later, we were sitting
around the camp fire on a beautiful sparkly cold evening, as I waxed on
about how good it all was.  Then I noticed he was hunched over, not moving
at all, saying nothing.  It was hard to tell by the flickering campfire, but
he just didn't look at all good.  I said, Hey pal, are you OK?

No.

Full stop.  I said, Well, um what is wrong?

He said, Those veggie dogs.  They are all still sitting down there.  My
stomach might stamp them "Return to Sender" any min..
buuuurrrrrLAAAAAAHHHHH...

Right into the campfire.  We scattered like scared roaches trying to avoid
the big column of barf steam.

He felt better almost immediately, but that one massive barf pretty much
doused the fire, so that was the end of our starlight reverie that night.
{8^D

If you have ever eaten soy-based meat substitutes, you will understand why
the notion of living on that stuff is so scary.  {8-]

spike









From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 07:46:42 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 00:46:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <004e01cb9828$edb6e010$c924a030$@att.net>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com> <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
	<004e01cb9828$edb6e010$c924a030$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimy=KtWxP+L-8w0ZJ=4LGetO37B-x=m0FqQu5i7@mail.gmail.com>

I never ate soy substitute food products during their earlier days.
But over the past ten years I've eaten some that I thought were very
good, and they did not in the least bit make me nauseous.

Oh, what became of the study that said eating lots of soy over the
years would lead to brain damage?

John

On 12/9/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> John Grigg wrote:
>
>>> On Behalf Of spike
> ...
>
>>>There is a bit of context that is missing for many of you, who were not
> regularly going to movies in 1973 and who missed the original Soylent
> Green...
>
>>I saw Soylent Green years later on television.  The film is regularly
> spoken of in the media...  I miss the smart kind of science fiction films
> they made  back in the seventies.
>
> There was another notable one right about that same time, West World.  In
> retrospect, I realize that one had emergent AI, with apparent outloading.
> The robots become self-aware and attack.
>
>>...  Right around that time, food companies were experimenting with soybean
> meat substitutes.  The early ones tasted terrible.  But at least they were
> expensive and unhealthy...spike
>
> Funny story that has nothing to do with anything, but I still laugh when I
> think about it.  A long time ago, I was camping with my wife's family at
> Mount Rainier.  My then 19 yr old brother-in-law and I went hiking all over
> the place, and we came back to camp crazy hungry.  We had soy veggie-dogs,
> since he is a strict vegetarian.  Even tho I was half starved, I only ate
> two; I detest the wretched things.  But he devoured eight of them, scarfed
> them like a pack of rabid wolves.  About three hours later, we were sitting
> around the camp fire on a beautiful sparkly cold evening, as I waxed on
> about how good it all was.  Then I noticed he was hunched over, not moving
> at all, saying nothing.  It was hard to tell by the flickering campfire, but
> he just didn't look at all good.  I said, Hey pal, are you OK?
>
> No.
>
> Full stop.  I said, Well, um what is wrong?
>
> He said, Those veggie dogs.  They are all still sitting down there.  My
> stomach might stamp them "Return to Sender" any min..
> buuuurrrrrLAAAAAAHHHHH...
>
> Right into the campfire.  We scattered like scared roaches trying to avoid
> the big column of barf steam.
>
> He felt better almost immediately, but that one massive barf pretty much
> doused the fire, so that was the end of our starlight reverie that night.
> {8^D
>
> If you have ever eaten soy-based meat substitutes, you will understand why
> the notion of living on that stuff is so scary.  {8-]
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 08:27:45 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 01:27:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A free science fiction roleplaying game
Message-ID: <AANLkTim+w3uaOaA_A161P14hS+zWUgi=SGLS+YJovb85@mail.gmail.com>

This is a free pen and paper science fiction roleplaying game...

Taken from the promo:
The year is 3200 and mankind's empire lies in ashes.

The Jump Gates fell six hundred years ago, severing the links between
the myriad worlds of the human diaspora.

Now, the long isolation of the Silence falls away as men and women
return to the skies above their scattered worlds.

Will you be among them?

Stars Without Number is a retro-inspired science fiction role playing
game influenced by the Old School Renaissance. The contents are
compatible with most old school clones and are designed to be easily
imported to your own favorite gaming system. In addition to a complete
pre-made stellar sector, Stars Without Number offers GMs and players
the tools to create their own sandbox-style adventures in the far
future.

Classic mechanics adapted for science-fiction adventure in the far future
Extensive GM support for building adventure-crammed sandbox settings
more quickly and easily

World building resources for creating system-neutral planets and star sectors
100 adventure seeds and guidelines for integrating them with the
worlds you've made

Old-school compatible rules for guns, cyberware, starships, and psionics
Domain rules for experienced characters who want to set up their own
colony, psychic academy, mercenary band, or other institution
>>>

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=86467&it=1&SRC=Newsletter

John  : )


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 08:52:35 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 01:52:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Halycon Molecular Interview regarding Kurzweil and de Grey
Message-ID: <AANLkTim=rrz0Z3oENaFvVTfGSh4TVfB_cc8k0jFvL+Tt@mail.gmail.com>

Taken from the interview:
*Question*: How do your views on longevity and life extension compare with
those of Aubrey de Grey and Ray Kurzweil?

*Answer*: Parts of SENS urgently should be funded and tested. That being
said, I work on sequencing and not on SENS, because our approach to curing
aging is first to turn biology into an information science- actually getting
to untangling the morass of metabolism that SENS does an end run around. I
believe we can get to a complete mechanistic understanding of human biology
in only a few decades, which is a timeline more like Kurzweil?s. On the
other hand, if SENS were being vigorously pursued today, it might save
millions of lives before the total understanding approach avails us. It is
good to have multiple bets.

As for Kurzweil, maybe this isn?t fair, and I?d like to hear his thoughts on
it, but I?m afraid his books demotivate people who would otherwise
contribute to the cause, maybe by giving the impression to some that the
Singularity is not only coming, but actually inevitable. Eat right,
exercise, take these pills, and don?t worry- those smart hardworking
scientists over there will solve everything for you. In contrast, a great
thing about Aubrey as a leader is that he harangues people to actually get
off their asses and make a contribution.

We might not survive the next twenty years. We may never cure aging. There
is nothing inevitable about our success. Everyone who is talented enough to
make a contribution should be trying to help, on all fronts, by any ethical
means, like it?s life and death- because it is.

And the very most talented ones should send their resumes immediately to
Halcyon.
>>>

Halycon Molecular interview
http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/interview-of-gene-sequencing-expert.html

John



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Dec 10 10:05:57 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:05:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101210100557.GN9434@leitl.org>

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 02:28:45PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Indeed.  I would very much like to see viable plasma thrusters that can
> generate 1G+ of thrust.  The trick seems to be either generating or storing

Electrip propulsion is low-thrust high-Isp (current VASIMR does
4 N, 6000 s specific impulse). The advantage of LEO-LLO plasma-driven
transfers is not time (currently ~6 months) but low propellant usage, 
making maximal use of each kg to LEO. Unmanned payloads can also tolerate
much higher deccelerations on landing.

Specific advantage of VASIMR is that you don't need do
do efficient but long-duration Hohmann transfers but go directly 
high energy transfer orbit which is mostly relevant for manned
missions.

> that much plasma, without ruining the thrust to weight ratio (when including
> the plasma generating/storing equipment, including any power supplies
> that need to be carried by the rocket).
> 
> I wonder if there's a chemical reaction that can take its reactants up to
> plasma phase, without need of external input?

No, chemical bond energies are orders of magnitude below that
required. You'd do much better using nuclear sources, like
solar photovoltaics (with the added advantage that you're
not carrying the power source) and nuclear reactors driving 
the electric propulsion unit.
 
> >> Until then, launching to what space station there is will have to suffice,
> >> so far as the launcher end of things is concerned.
> >
> > Please do not top-post and please trime your mail.
> 
> Please typo-check and please don't quote entire emails without adding
> anything but a period and your signature (as your email immediately
> following this one did).

Several, in fact. I'm glad you noticed.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Dec 10 11:15:41 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 06:15:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com> <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <3a3e5f84b4e1b2db4a0e574d2a9c9dc8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


>
> Anyone else here see that back in the day?
>
> spike
>

Yes, spike, I saw it.  And thought about it. And sometimes still think about it. ;)

Regards,
MB



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 11:23:51 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 04:23:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their name to
	"Longecity"
Message-ID: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>

The Immortality Institute board of directors have proposed changing
the name of the organization to "Longecity."  This is a merging of
longevity with city.

I realize having the word "immortality" in their current title is a
bad idea in terms of social acceptance, but I think they have chosen
the wrong name as a replacement.  I have suggested they change it to
the short and simple "Longevity."

The World Transhumanist Association now calls itself H+, the
Immortality Institute will be getting a new name, and so I suppose if
the Extropy Institute is reinstituted they will call themselves X'ers!
 ; )

http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45485-articlelongecity/

John


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Dec 10 11:27:08 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 12:27:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin2zVWSdEs3v=HJKxxV0gen3C+MfaokJ8RXd+Bm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>
	<000601cb97f5$52dbcf70$f8936e50$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin2zVWSdEs3v=HJKxxV0gen3C+MfaokJ8RXd+Bm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101210112708.GQ9434@leitl.org>

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:06:06PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> If one can superheat the fuel anyway, one might as well simply superheat it
> directly to plasma and don't bother reacting it.  Unless one includes a
> short-lived fusion reactor as part of the engine, of course.

Your problem is mass. E.g. fusion-enhanced VASIMR would have to
to produce enough additionals thrust to overcome the added
mass.

I personally think that tracked beam propulsion (in the weaker
form, via e.g. a rectenna array feeding a VASIMR unit) will win
by virtue of leaving (most of) the drive at home.
 
> Then again, that's "short-lived" as in "approximately 10 minutes", whereas with
> modern experimental fusion reactors, 10 seconds is considered a very long
> reaction.  (Which makes me wonder how they think they'll get it to commercial
> practicality, which requires sustained power output for hours at least.  I also
> can't help but wonder if engineering for extremely short reactions is part of
> the reason why big fusion reactors have not produced progress
> commensurate with their expense.)

Speculation without knowledge is rarely useful. 
 
> Might anyone know of experiments in long duration plasma containment?

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Dec 10 12:41:32 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 07:41:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Halcyon Molecular interview
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <882166b99d4535237489d8ebd5e2b247.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Is anyone besides me (and Harvey, IIRC) reading "freefall" comic at
http://freefall.purrsia.com/

I'm enjoying the discussion a lot!  Makes me laugh too.

Regards,
MB



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 12:55:23 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 08:55:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimy=KtWxP+L-8w0ZJ=4LGetO37B-x=m0FqQu5i7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com> <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
	<004e01cb9828$edb6e010$c924a030$@att.net>
	<AANLkTimy=KtWxP+L-8w0ZJ=4LGetO37B-x=m0FqQu5i7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikX25rqCQQqmbV1xnq0VxTGjQX1gA11i4=BKWBd@mail.gmail.com>

*Make Room, Make Room* was the first science fiction novel I read. I was in
elementary school, and prior to that I only read Jack London novels. I
remember the cover perfectly thirty five years later: a man standing in the
middle of a crowd in downtown New York with a look of sheer claustrophobic
panic on his face. Re-reading it years later I was surprised to discover
that the Soylent Green as humans aspect doesn't appear in the novel and only
in the movie, and I had somehow conflated the two. We used to make jokes in
college about a cafeteria pasta-cheese-crouton dish billed as "bubbly-bake"
that no-one could readily identify. We called it Soylent Green. The line
staff got used to it. They knew what we meant when he asked for it, though
I'm not sure they grasped the specific allusion.

Darren

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 3:46 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I never ate soy substitute food products during their earlier days.
> But over the past ten years I've eaten some that I thought were very
> good, and they did not in the least bit make me nauseous.
>
> Oh, what became of the study that said eating lots of soy over the
> years would lead to brain damage?
>
> John
>
> On 12/9/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > John Grigg wrote:
> >
> >>> On Behalf Of spike
> > ...
> >
> >>>There is a bit of context that is missing for many of you, who were not
> > regularly going to movies in 1973 and who missed the original Soylent
> > Green...
> >
> >>I saw Soylent Green years later on television.  The film is regularly
> > spoken of in the media...  I miss the smart kind of science fiction films
> > they made  back in the seventies.
> >
> > There was another notable one right about that same time, West World.  In
> > retrospect, I realize that one had emergent AI, with apparent outloading.
> > The robots become self-aware and attack.
> >
> >>...  Right around that time, food companies were experimenting with
> soybean
> > meat substitutes.  The early ones tasted terrible.  But at least they
> were
> > expensive and unhealthy...spike
> >
> > Funny story that has nothing to do with anything, but I still laugh when
> I
> > think about it.  A long time ago, I was camping with my wife's family at
> > Mount Rainier.  My then 19 yr old brother-in-law and I went hiking all
> over
> > the place, and we came back to camp crazy hungry.  We had soy
> veggie-dogs,
> > since he is a strict vegetarian.  Even tho I was half starved, I only ate
> > two; I detest the wretched things.  But he devoured eight of them,
> scarfed
> > them like a pack of rabid wolves.  About three hours later, we were
> sitting
> > around the camp fire on a beautiful sparkly cold evening, as I waxed on
> > about how good it all was.  Then I noticed he was hunched over, not
> moving
> > at all, saying nothing.  It was hard to tell by the flickering campfire,
> but
> > he just didn't look at all good.  I said, Hey pal, are you OK?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Full stop.  I said, Well, um what is wrong?
> >
> > He said, Those veggie dogs.  They are all still sitting down there.  My
> > stomach might stamp them "Return to Sender" any min..
> > buuuurrrrrLAAAAAAHHHHH...
> >
> > Right into the campfire.  We scattered like scared roaches trying to
> avoid
> > the big column of barf steam.
> >
> > He felt better almost immediately, but that one massive barf pretty much
> > doused the fire, so that was the end of our starlight reverie that night.
> > {8^D
> >
> > If you have ever eaten soy-based meat substitutes, you will understand
> why
> > the notion of living on that stuff is so scary.  {8-]
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Fri Dec 10 13:38:33 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 08:38:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201012101337.oBADbW4w000856@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

John Grigg wrote:

>I realize having the word "immortality" in their current title is a
>bad idea in terms of social acceptance, but I think they have chosen
>the wrong name as a replacement.  I have suggested they change it to
>the short and simple "Longevity."

Longecity is guaranteed to be misspelled and mispronounced. If they
can't use Longevity, they should keep looking. Is the Howard
Foundation taken...?

>if the Extropy Institute is reinstituted they will call themselves X'ers!

Surely X-Men...

Of course that would make Max Dr. Xavier, which he might not
appreciate.


-- David.



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 13:50:31 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:50:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikEXGk62JhT3L5fJpcVcMYpK8328WoWOY4sAzPy@mail.gmail.com>

>the Extropy Institute is reinstituted they will call themselves X'ers!<

You wanna dramatically increase membership, go with Sextropy. The message
might get watered down a bit though.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 7:23 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> The Immortality Institute board of directors have proposed changing
> the name of the organization to "Longecity."  This is a merging of
> longevity with city.
>
> I realize having the word "immortality" in their current title is a
> bad idea in terms of social acceptance, but I think they have chosen
> the wrong name as a replacement.  I have suggested they change it to
> the short and simple "Longevity."
>
> The World Transhumanist Association now calls itself H+, the
> Immortality Institute will be getting a new name, and so I suppose if
> the Extropy Institute is reinstituted they will call themselves X'ers!
>  ; )
>
> http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45485-articlelongecity/
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks<
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 14:54:44 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 15:54:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>

If they think having the word "immortality" in their current title is
a bad idea in terms of social acceptance, I suggest "Get Sick and Die
Soon" as a new name.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:23 PM, John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> The Immortality Institute board of directors have proposed changing
> the name of the organization to "Longecity." ?This is a merging of
> longevity with city.
>
> I realize having the word "immortality" in their current title is a
> bad idea in terms of social acceptance, but I think they have chosen
> the wrong name as a replacement. ?I have suggested they change it to
> the short and simple "Longevity."
>
> The World Transhumanist Association now calls itself H+, the
> Immortality Institute will be getting a new name, and so I suppose if
> the Extropy Institute is reinstituted they will call themselves X'ers!
> ?; )
>
> http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45485-articlelongecity/
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Dec 10 15:50:04 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:50:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] rocke fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXvAVBjW9CgcckVdALL9A28NfZXPRX-42YUPvf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimVko8DEwQyEaCOGfwOf53cr_GVmNtDT2zawNhk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikXvAVBjW9CgcckVdALL9A28NfZXPRX-42YUPvf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101210155004.GZ9434@leitl.org>

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:44:51PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Could you use tungsten as a heat exchanger?
> 
> Have an onboard energy source, optimized for heat generation instead
> of thrust.  (Maybe even fission/radioactives, so long as they don't get

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket

see "Risks".

They're not that good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse

> into the exhaust.)  Use tungsten to transfer the heat into hydrogen,
> which is gently forced past.  The heat greatly increases how fast it
> goes when it leaves.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 10 15:36:10 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 07:36:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimmNGpOpGGok2t3vnxRm-j5ZWuoFmXcmm8W-XMr@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<169969.1441.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimmNGpOpGGok2t3vnxRm-j5ZWuoFmXcmm8W-XMr@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <739125.12466.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My comment which kicked this off was: "What I'm really waiting to see is private 
launcher to a private space station -- not a private launcher that's merely 
another government contractor." I'm not understanding what seems to me to be a 
rather sarcastic response. Yes, I know there are no private space stations for a 
SpaceX manned rocket to go to at this time. I was expressing my desire to see 
these.

Regards,

Dan


From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 5:30:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch

2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> I believe it's already being worked on by Bigelow, no?

"Being worked on" is not the same as actually having a
private space station in orbit.? Until that happens, no
private launcher can actually launch to it - so they have
to settle for launching to the ISS.
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


      
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 16:09:56 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:09:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=LaHDBxuMTFE6FphxmjVDKOV3QMg9uvTNh+rvQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:
>if the Extropy Institute is reinstituted they will call themselves X'ers!

David Lubkin replied:
Surely X-Men...

Of course that would make Max Dr. Xavier, which he might not
appreciate.
>>>

David, you must not know Max all that well, because he is a huge comic
book fan, and so I bet he would love to be Professor Xavier!  ; )
Well, he might actually prefer being Magneto...

Darren Greer wrote:
You wanna dramatically increase membership, go with Sextropy. The
message might get watered down a bit though.
>>>

If I had the website design skills, I would do a parody porn (at a
PG-13 level) site called Sextropians.com!  It would have a "Ask
Anders" column where our favorite Swedish academic would answer
people's difficult sex questions.  ; )  And it would also have playful
spoofs of 70's porn starring our Spike as a studly motorcycle outlaw
who sports a big mustache as he romances swimsuit models, flight
attendants, waitresses, librarians, astronauts, entomologists
(specializing in bees), and motorcycle engineers!

Giulio wrote:
If they think having the word "immortality" in their current title is
a bad idea in terms of social acceptance, I suggest "Get Sick and Die
Soon" as a new name.
>>>

What about "Get Enhanced and Live Much Longer" as the new name?  Or
they might even go with the "Elixir of Life Institute!" lol

John  : )


On 12/10/10, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> If they think having the word "immortality" in their current title is
> a bad idea in terms of social acceptance, I suggest "Get Sick and Die
> Soon" as a new name.
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:23 PM, John Grigg
> <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Immortality Institute board of directors have proposed changing
>> the name of the organization to "Longecity." ?This is a merging of
>> longevity with city.
>>
>> I realize having the word "immortality" in their current title is a
>> bad idea in terms of social acceptance, but I think they have chosen
>> the wrong name as a replacement. ?I have suggested they change it to
>> the short and simple "Longevity."
>>
>> The World Transhumanist Association now calls itself H+, the
>> Immortality Institute will be getting a new name, and so I suppose if
>> the Extropy Institute is reinstituted they will call themselves X'ers!
>> ?; )
>>
>> http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45485-articlelongecity/
>>
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 16:19:04 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:19:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The year in review, stylishly done in under 3 minutes
Message-ID: <AANLkTikq0uLJNjgiB5WZb31qHnsaqtzxuf_ogj-wBJYk@mail.gmail.com>

I was impressed by their webby artistry...

http://www.kurzweilai.net/zeitgeist-2010-year-in-review?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=0c686aa2e3-UA-946742-1&utm_

John


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 10 16:20:47 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 08:20:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimy=KtWxP+L-8w0ZJ=4LGetO37B-x=m0FqQu5i7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
	<4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>	<004e01cb9828$edb6e010$c924a030$@att.net>
	<AANLkTimy=KtWxP+L-8w0ZJ=4LGetO37B-x=m0FqQu5i7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901cb9886$349a7b10$9dcf7130$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of John Grigg
...

Oh, what became of the study that said eating lots of soy over the years
would lead to brain damage?

John


Oh, that, well anyone could see that was the beef industry fighting back
with dirty tactics, the same way the sugar industry starts rumors that any
artificial sweetener causes cancer.  I ate soy for years, no drain brammage
at all.  The snarny scorfs mordle my sneef um what were we talking about?

smike








From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 10 16:32:02 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 08:32:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <3a3e5f84b4e1b2db4a0e574d2a9c9dc8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
	<4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
	<3a3e5f84b4e1b2db4a0e574d2a9c9dc8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <003a01cb9887$c692d6b0$53b88410$@att.net>

...
Subject: Re: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!


>
>> Anyone else here see that back in the day?
>
> spike
>

>Yes, spike, I saw it.  And thought about it. And sometimes still think
about it. ;)  Regards, MB


Could that movie have influenced an entire generation's attitude towards
reproduction?  At my 30th reunion, I noticed my high school class didn't
breed enough to replace ourselves.  The total number of offspring in that
class was about 70%-ish the size of the class itself.

spike








From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 16:56:18 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:56:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <003901cb9886$349a7b10$9dcf7130$@att.net>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com> <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
	<004e01cb9828$edb6e010$c924a030$@att.net>
	<AANLkTimy=KtWxP+L-8w0ZJ=4LGetO37B-x=m0FqQu5i7@mail.gmail.com>
	<003901cb9886$349a7b10$9dcf7130$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinmH9G6PEHMd-C+36MZRobLMTSF0vF=AcMm=-1f@mail.gmail.com>

Smike wrote:
> Oh, that, well anyone could see that was the beef industry fighting back
> with dirty tactics, the same way the sugar industry starts rumors that any
> artificial sweetener causes cancer.  I ate soy for years, no drain brammage
> at all.  The snarny scorfs mordle my sneef um what were we talking about?

Yeah, I can see it never injured you in the least...  ; )

I remember a Hawaiian university report stating that eating a regular
diet of soy products over the years could actually cause brain damage,
and it created quite a stir in the national media....

Those damn "good ole boy" Hawaiians must have conspired with the "good
ole boy" Texans! lol

John


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 10 16:44:40 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 08:44:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <20101210112708.GQ9434@leitl.org>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>	<20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>	<AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>	<000601cb97f5$52dbcf70$f8936e50$@att.net>	<AANLkTin2zVWSdEs3v=HJKxxV0gen3C+MfaokJ8RXd+Bm@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101210112708.GQ9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <003b01cb9889$89fd4710$9df7d530$@att.net>


...On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:06:06PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> If one can superheat the fuel anyway, one might as well simply 
> superheat it directly to plasma and don't bother reacting it.  Unless 
> one includes a short-lived fusion reactor as part of the engine, of
course. Adrian

Of course if it is heated to plasma it wouldn't react anyway in the chemical
sense.  I wrote it in a confusing way.  I shoulda said, react the chemicals
to get them hot, then superheat the exhaust to plasma.

>Eugen:  Your problem is mass. E.g. fusion-enhanced VASIMR would have to to
produce enough additionals thrust to overcome the added mass... 

The solar powered ion drives look promising to me.

>I personally think that tracked beam propulsion (in the weaker form, via
e.g. a rectenna array feeding a VASIMR unit) will win by virtue of leaving
(most of) the drive at home... Eugen

Ja, we have the tracking technology now.  We could have two reflector sats
which receive and transmit energy from the ground, one at a low MEO and one
at GEO.  The payload carrying satellite could be carried to LEO by
traditional means, lower than the MEO.  Then as it passes, the MEO reflector
sat would beam energy to the payload sat to boost the apogee on each pass,
until the apogee is out to LEO.  Then the LEO reflector sat boosts perigee
on each pass until the perigee is passes LEO.

That scheme takes a long time, but the actually energy to boost the payload
from LEO to GEO comes from the ground.

spike



 




From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 17:54:58 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 09:54:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <003b01cb9889$89fd4710$9df7d530$@att.net>
References: <4CFFB9F9.4090505@satx.rr.com>
	<201012081852.oB8IqAUY009000@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<409697.19381.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201012082153.oB8LrHGe026355@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<982457.58240.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimjV_WSBKEz-31Y49tt7QNrCD4uvffkLJRL2kc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101209213640.GC9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=k__7sq-DOGWiUocCgMy7=1p_p9Er8vaKt99F3@mail.gmail.com>
	<000601cb97f5$52dbcf70$f8936e50$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin2zVWSdEs3v=HJKxxV0gen3C+MfaokJ8RXd+Bm@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101210112708.GQ9434@leitl.org>
	<003b01cb9889$89fd4710$9df7d530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=pFe1jL7UnOeXJY6WkfNrvtK2Jg86yjBkzsvC_@mail.gmail.com>

Combining four emails...

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 2:05 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 02:28:45PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
>> Indeed.  I would very much like to see viable plasma thrusters that can
>> generate 1G+ of thrust.  The trick seems to be either generating or storing
>
> Electrip propulsion is low-thrust high-Isp (current VASIMR does
> 4 N, 6000 s specific impulse). The advantage of LEO-LLO plasma-driven
> transfers is not time (currently ~6 months) but low propellant usage,
> making maximal use of each kg to LEO. Unmanned payloads can also tolerate
> much higher deccelerations on landing.

Yeah, but the main problem right now is the high cost per kg to LEO.
There's only so much optimization you can do.  Further, it sets a
high minimum cost, which discourages experimentation: at launch
costs of $1000/kg (which is on the cheap side of today's capabilities),
even if you had a 100 g toy satellite, you couldn't launch it for $100
without a lot of coordination with other people (which drives the true
cost way above $100).

Launch to LEO requires much higher thrust than current electric
propulsion systems.

>> I wonder if there's a chemical reaction that can take its reactants up to
>> plasma phase, without need of external input?
>
> No, chemical bond energies are orders of magnitude below that
> required. You'd do much better using nuclear sources, like
> solar photovoltaics (with the added advantage that you're
> not carrying the power source) and nuclear reactors driving
> the electric propulsion unit.

So I have learned.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:06:06PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>> If one can superheat the fuel anyway, one might as well simply superheat it
>> directly to plasma and don't bother reacting it.  Unless one includes a
>> short-lived fusion reactor as part of the engine, of course.
>
> Your problem is mass. E.g. fusion-enhanced VASIMR would have to
> to produce enough additionals thrust to overcome the added
> mass.

This is indeed the main problem of high thrust electric engines:
scaling up the thrust without, well, massively scaling up the
mass.

> I personally think that tracked beam propulsion (in the weaker
> form, via e.g. a rectenna array feeding a VASIMR unit) will win
> by virtue of leaving (most of) the drive at home.

It's got possibilities, but:

1) Large (and expensive) ground installation needed

2) How does it provide thrust on the far side of the planet, in order
to stabilize the orbit?  Or is it deflected to provide a horizontal, or
even downward, thrust to shift from launch to orbit trajectory once
the proper altitude is reached?

>> Then again, that's "short-lived" as in "approximately 10 minutes", whereas with
>> modern experimental fusion reactors, 10 seconds is considered a very long
>> reaction.  (Which makes me wonder how they think they'll get it to commercial
>> practicality, which requires sustained power output for hours at least.  I also
>> can't help but wonder if engineering for extremely short reactions is part of
>> the reason why big fusion reactors have not produced progress
>> commensurate with their expense.)
>
> Speculation without knowledge is rarely useful.

Given the members of this list, it's possible that someone has the
knowledge to answer that.  ;)

2010/12/10 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> My comment which kicked this off was: "What I'm really waiting to see is
> private launcher to a private space station -- not a private launcher that's
> merely another government contractor." I'm not understanding what seems to
> me to be a rather sarcastic response. Yes, I know there are no private space
> stations for a SpaceX manned rocket to go to at this time. I was expressing
> my desire to see these.

Ah, I meant no offense.  Rather, I was saying that the private launchers go
for what milestones and triumphs they can get.  Don't forget to celebrate
today's progress, if it is progress, just because there are yet further
objectives as yet unreached.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:44 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:06:06PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>> If one can superheat the fuel anyway, one might as well simply
>> superheat it directly to plasma and don't bother reacting it. ?Unless
>> one includes a short-lived fusion reactor as part of the engine, of
> course. Adrian
>
> Of course if it is heated to plasma it wouldn't react anyway in the chemical
> sense. ?I wrote it in a confusing way. ?I shoulda said, react the chemicals
> to get them hot, then superheat the exhaust to plasma.

That makes sense.  Although, I still wonder if it might be more mass
efficient to completely separate the exhaust material from that which
generates the heat.



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 18:07:17 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:07:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] rocke fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <20101210155004.GZ9434@leitl.org>
References: <AANLkTimVko8DEwQyEaCOGfwOf53cr_GVmNtDT2zawNhk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikXvAVBjW9CgcckVdALL9A28NfZXPRX-42YUPvf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101210155004.GZ9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinvjexTB=Qa49iyn6gZ+DZ8nDEmxU4B1h7tE3qj@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:44:51PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>> Could you use tungsten as a heat exchanger?
>>
>> Have an onboard energy source, optimized for heat generation instead
>> of thrust. ?(Maybe even fission/radioactives, so long as they don't get
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket
>
> see "Risks".
>
> They're not that good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse

The first article gives a specific impulse of 850 seconds for a simple
solid-core design.  The latter gives specific impulses of 250-450 for
modern chemical (solid or liquid fuel) rockets.  Yes, there are better
examples listed, but none that give 1G+ thrust.  (Fuel efficiency is
very desirable, but high thrust is required, for launching.  So we can
ignore any engines that do not give 1G+ thrust for that purpose, no
matter their other benefits, even though they may be superior after
orbit is achieved.)



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 18:44:05 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:44:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Halcyon Molecular interview
In-Reply-To: <882166b99d4535237489d8ebd5e2b247.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5@mail.gmail.com>
	<882166b99d4535237489d8ebd5e2b247.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXNRi6AEzpFGjoggJOhuhEa3eG-BNdt7OOPQ_x@mail.gmail.com>

> Taken from the interview:

> And the very most talented ones should send their resumes immediately to
> Halcyon.

*sends resume*

Worst they can do is say no.

Anyone else on this list going to apply too?

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 4:41 AM, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> Is anyone besides me (and Harvey, IIRC) reading "freefall" comic at
> http://freefall.purrsia.com/
>
> I'm enjoying the discussion a lot! ?Makes me laugh too.

Indeed.  It is well written science fiction, defying the "just for kids/low
brow" stereotype of most comic strips.



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Fri Dec 10 18:53:27 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 13:53:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=LaHDBxuMTFE6FphxmjVDKOV3QMg9uvTNh+rvQ@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=LaHDBxuMTFE6FphxmjVDKOV3QMg9uvTNh+rvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201012101852.oBAIqIPL019450@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

John Grigg replied:

>David, you must not know Max all that well, because he is a huge comic
>book fan, and so I bet he would love to be Professor Xavier!  ; )
>Well, he might actually prefer being Magneto...

I was thinking of Xavier's aspects of (though brilliant) being old, bald,
crippled, and pompous.

Magneto has some of those qualities, but he's got a balancing pizzazz.


-- David.



From anders at aleph.se  Fri Dec 10 18:52:24 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:52:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks.
In-Reply-To: <612553.76224.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <505177.99431.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<D0266CA7-DE53-4964-A571-C128F4DCA9AF@bellsouth.net>	<279265.83714.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<201012091330.oB9DU46j029693@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<20101209135605.GP9434@leitl.org>
	<4D00EC7D.9080303@aleph.se>	<AANLkTi=ctjuKjxhO_i5V5TL0tDMw9SaL1uAuhW9pQBaw@mail.gmail.com>
	<612553.76224.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D0276E8.40204@aleph.se>

On 09/12/2010 20:46, Dan wrote:
> I don't think that's true. Sexual preferences have often been used to 
> blackmail people -- and, in terms of security, has often been seen as 
> a liability because someone might be blackmailed. In other words, if 
> you were gay and in the closet, this might be seen as a way that 
> foreign agents might manipulate you -- even if you were not, say, on 
> their side ideologically, in their pay, or perhaps had a desire to 
> change history.
>

There is a fun passage in Charles Stross' "The Atrocity Archives" 
mentioning that one of the gay housemates of the protagonist is forced 
to participate in the pride parade in order to keep his security 
clearance - if he is in the closet he is blackmailable, so he must be as 
out of the closet as possible.


As for having a FBI file or something similar, my opinion is that *not* 
having one is a sign of being either suspicious or unimportant. What 
matters is whether the information will be problematic to you or not. 
This is of course where the "if you have nothing to hide, you have 
nothing to fear" is proven wrong, since even entirely inoccuous and 
truthful information can be misinterpreted out of context in bad ways.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From js_exi at gnolls.org  Fri Dec 10 19:19:41 2010
From: js_exi at gnolls.org (J. Stanton)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:19:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] More about transrealism (was Re: J. Stanton)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1290513602.4077.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1290513602.4077.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4D027D4D.30606@gnolls.org>

On 11/23/10 4:00 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> Alice Sheldon drew upon her very exotic and unusual experiences in her
> fiction, so I guess that makes her work notionally transrealist--but
> somehow it doesn't have the gnarly Phil Dick/Rudy Rucker zing I
> associate with transrealism (although obviously it did have other virtues).

That's the core of why I'm doubtful that 'The Gnoll Credo' belongs in 
the transrealist camp (though I love PKD, J. G. Ballard, and to a lesser 
extent, Rucker).  Let me explain by giving a few examples:

PKD was all about blurring the "normal" division between subjective 
experience and objective reality.  VALIS did it through mystical 
experience, A Scanner Darkly did it through drugs, and his short stories 
used all manner of SF tropes.

J. G. Ballard was very much about creating set pieces in which the world 
becomes, in some way, a projection or reflection of a character's 
subjective reality.  Traditional characterization in his case was nearly 
absent, which means that he doesn't fit the traditional definition of a 
transrealist -- but his stories are certainly transreal.

Based on the definitions you've given, Lucius Shepard would most 
definitely be classified as transrealist, because his stories, almost 
without exception, follow a pattern of a dissolute protagonist (often 
modeled on his own experiences as a moderately dissolute expatriate) 
slowly discovering the strange (and often mystical) agencies that are 
creating his situation and his reality.

The problem here is that no one classifies Shepard as a transrealist 
because, while he fits the definition, he doesn't have the *style*.  At 
all.  His style is lyrical and very literary, not at all the slam-bang 
psychedelic pyrotechnics of Rucker, nor the flatly stated insanity of 
PKD or Ballard.  In Shepard's worlds, the backstage machinery is slowly 
revealed under poor lighting, and only comes into focus at the very 
end...whereas PKD just leaves it lying around, and Rucker gleefully wads 
it up and throws it at you.

So, at least *to me*, transrealism feels as much like a style as a set 
of writing techniques.  This may not be intentional or intended, but 
given the authors presented as transrealist (or not), it's the 
impression I get.

Getting back to my original point: this is the core of why I'm hesitant 
to sell "The Gnoll Credo" as transrealist, because it doesn't feel 
anything like PKD or Rucker.  Frankly, if I had to provide references 
within the SF field, it would be some combination of James Tiptree Jr. 
and Octavia Butler, with perhaps a touch of Orson Scott Card.  But I 
don't want to push that comparison too far, either, because not only is 
it not SF, it's not really 'like' anything else.  (It's a fictional 
ethnobiography.)

> <instead of the transreal approach of "the world is a much stranger
> place than you think" (a valid approach, with great impact when done
> well), I go the opposite direction: "a world you originally understood
> to be fantastic is much more real than you think.">
>
> My understanding of the term is fairly even-handed:
>
> <Following sf writer Rudy Rucker, I call this way of doing things with
> words, images and ideas transrealism, although I extend his original
> coinage. Not only is transrealism writing about immediate reality?or
> your idiosyncratic perceptions of it?in a fantastic way, it is also a
> way of writing the fantastic from the standpoint of your richly
> personalized reality... quite a few writers in and out of science
> fiction have been eddying in the slipstream of science toward a gnarly
> attractor in narrative space (as a physicist might put it), a way of
> combining wild ideas, subversion and criticism of the supposedly
> inviolate Real, together with realistic thickening of the supposedly
> airy fantastic, all bound together in a passionate, noncompliant act of
> self-examination.>

As you wrote the book, you have the advantage of me here :)  I wish it 
weren't $100+...I'd love to read it.

JS
http://www.gnolls.org



From js_exi at gnolls.org  Fri Dec 10 19:01:29 2010
From: js_exi at gnolls.org (J. Stanton)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:01:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Soy, brain aging,
 and false advertising (Re:  Have a Soylent Green Xmas!)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1291982401.24553.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1291982401.24553.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4D027909.1090109@gnolls.org>

> From: John Grigg<possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
>
> Oh, what became of the study that said eating lots of soy over the
> years would lead to brain damage?

Right here:
"Brain Aging and Midlife Tofu Consumption"
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/2/242

"Conclusions: In this population, higher midlife tofu consumption was
independently associated with indicators of cognitive impairment and
brain atrophy in late life."

Here's a long article collecting many of the ill effects of soy. Yes,
mercola.com can be foofy at times, but this article is a good
aggregation of the issues:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/09/17/soy-brain.aspx

Note the effects of huge doses of phytoestrogens on infants...on which
we are doing a worldwide uncontrolled study.

(Yes, you'll find several references in the AJCN which claim there is no
problem and soy is unequivocally good -- but you'll also find
disclaimers like these at the end of such references: "M. Messina
regularly consults for companies that manufacture and/or sell soyfoods
and/or isoflavone supplements and is the Executive Director of the Soy
Nutrition Institute, an organization funded by the soy industry and the
United Soybean Board.")

> If you have ever eaten soy-based meat substitutes, you will
> understand why the notion of living on that stuff is so scary. {8-]
>
> spike

Soybeans aren't food for anything but birds and rodents.  Neither are 
soy products.

Note that cattle can't digest soy or corn properly either (they're 
ruminants -- grass-eaters), which is why they need to be pumped full of 
antibiotics (a primary cause of the worldwide antibiotic resistance 
problem -- far more antibiotics are fed to cattle than to humans) in 
order to stay alive in feedlots.

In fact, the entire term "vegetable oil" is false advertising, because 
it's not made from vegetables at all: it's an industrial product, 
extracted from seeds using industrial solvents (hexane).

http://www.gnolls.org/812/the-term-vegetable-oil-is-false-advertising/


From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 20:12:54 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:12:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Jason Hope pledges $500k to SENS Foundation
Message-ID: <AANLkTimVPUGgVfs4p+wVag-WkfZk+U4h9MYdr-Sbjmtv@mail.gmail.com>

Jason Hope pledges $500k to SENS Foundation
http://sens.org/node/1861

"""

Hope's Donation Will Support SENS Foundation's Research Of Rejuvenation
Biotechnologies And Its Mission To Fight Age-Related Disease

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Dec. 9, 2010 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/

The global scientific community is increasingly recognizing the role of
rejuvenation biotechnologies in addressing age-related disease. This week,
Arizona-based businessman Jason Hope announced a $500,000 donation to SENS
Foundation, a California-based non-profit organization that works to
develop, promote and ensure widespread access to rejuvenation
biotechnologies which comprehensively address age-related disease.

?I have had great interest in the SENS Foundation and Dr. Aubrey de Grey's
work for some time now. I believe their work is essential to the advancement
of human medicine and their approach to the overall problem of human aging
and its associated diseases (Alzheimer's, Atherosclerosis, Diabetes, etc.)
is the only way to go. Their work and the work of others that they support
will drive the complete redefinition and reshaping of the healthcare,
pharmaceutical, and biotech industries as we know them today. The
advancement of rejuvenation biotechnologies is not only extremely important,
but it is the future. I am honored to support the SENS Foundation in its
efforts, and hope my support helps drive faster results for all of
humanity,? said Jason Hope.

The donation was announced by SENS Foundation CEO, Mike Kope, at Tuesday's
'Breakthrough Philanthropy' event hosted by the Thiel Foundation, in the
Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco.

?We need to create an entirely new biotech industry. That's why we created
SENS Foundation: to be a credible catalyst for change; to be a public
research and outreach organization devoted to the creation of a new field-
rejuvenation biotechnology. To that end, we are proud that our projects are
capturing the imaginations of top tier collaborators in biotech and
regenerative medicine. Jason Hope's donation is a major contribution,
enabling us to build on our existing collaborations in 2011, and
accelerating our progress in the fight against age-related disease,? said
Mike Kope.

?I enjoyed hearing a lot of great presentations at the Breakthrough
Philanthropy event,? said Thiel Foundation chairman Peter Thiel. ?But for
me, the highlight of the whole evening was hearing about Jason's bold
commitment to defeating aging.?

SENS Foundation CSO, Aubrey de Grey, described the use to which Hope's
donation will be put:

?Arteriosclerosis - hardening of the arteries - is the main cause of
increased blood pressure (hypertension) in the elderly, which in turn
exacerbates major aspects of aging such as diabetes. It is caused largely by
the unwanted accumulation of molecular bonds between the proteins that hold
the cells of the artery in place - the extracellular matrix. The same
process causes long-sightedness (presbyopia) and contributes to skin aging.
I am delighted that Jason's donation will fund our work on the
pharmacological breaking of these unwanted molecular bonds, and the
restoration of elasticity to the body's extracellular matrix.?

To view Mike Kope's announcement of Jason Hope's donation at Tuesday's
'Breakthrough Philanthropy' event and to learn more about SENS Foundation
visit: http://sens.org/node/1858

About Jason Hope

Jason Hope is an entrepreneur, based in Scottsdale, AZ, with a passion for
philanthropy focusing on education, disease cure, scientific research and
biotechnology. An Arizona native, Hope is a strong supporter of local
educational programs that encourage learning inside and out of the classroom
as well as those organizations that have a significant impact on disease
prevention, control and cures. Hope has worked with the Boys & Girls Club of
Metropolitan Phoenix, the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society's Desert Mountain
States Chapter, The Tony Hawk Foundation, The Andre Agassi Foundation, True
Colors Fund, The Mark Wahlberg Youth Foundation, Family Health
International, Worldwide Orphans Foundation, T Gen Foundation, Teach for
America Phoenix, International Foundation for Education and Self Help and
the Arizona Science Center, where he is a member of the Director's Circle.

About SENS Foundation : www.sens.org

SENS Foundation is a non-profit organization founded in 2009 to develop,
promote and ensure widespread access to rejuvenation biotechnologies which
comprehensively address age-related disease. Our focus is SENS, a framework
for repairing the damage which builds up in the body as a result of normal
metabolism, before that damage leads to the development of deadly
pathologies.

SOURCE SENS Foundation www.prnewswire.com Copyright (C) 2010 PR Newswire.
All rights reserved -0- KEYWORD: California INDUSTRY KEYWORD: HEA

BIO SUBJECT CODE: NPT

"""
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Dec 10 21:47:42 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:47:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] rocke fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinvjexTB=Qa49iyn6gZ+DZ8nDEmxU4B1h7tE3qj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimVko8DEwQyEaCOGfwOf53cr_GVmNtDT2zawNhk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikXvAVBjW9CgcckVdALL9A28NfZXPRX-42YUPvf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101210155004.GZ9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTinvjexTB=Qa49iyn6gZ+DZ8nDEmxU4B1h7tE3qj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101210214742.GC9434@leitl.org>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:07:17AM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> The first article gives a specific impulse of 850 seconds for a simple
> solid-core design.  The latter gives specific impulses of 250-450 for
> modern chemical (solid or liquid fuel) rockets.  Yes, there are better
> examples listed, but none that give 1G+ thrust.  (Fuel efficiency is

In terms of economy you're likely to employ a hybrid design.
A maglev launch stage (e.g. up Mount Chimborazo) instead of a first
chemical stage, second stage air-breathing scramjet/rocket hybrid
or simple chemical rocket, or laser driven ablation (not sure this
will ever work, though current prototypes are sure nifty).

Also, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with chemical rockets,
as long as your transport rate is limited, e.g. for a lunar bootstrap
using in-situ resources. Suited monkeys are quite pointless, so you'll
proceed to teleoperated robots shortly, and whether you teleoperate
them from a pressurized can nearby or from rotating ground centers (with
the advantage of 24/7 operation) only adds about 2 seconds of latency.
Which is an nuisance, but adaptable to in principle, and asks for
local reflex augmentation, and is a precursor for fully autonomous
designs where relativistic latency makes motoric loop coordination
prohibitive.

> very desirable, but high thrust is required, for launching.  So we can
> ignore any engines that do not give 1G+ thrust for that purpose, no
> matter their other benefits, even though they may be superior after
> orbit is achieved.)

You will not get NERVA-type rockets approved, nevermind something
as dirty as an Orion. That's not a handicap, that's a feature.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From max at maxmore.com  Fri Dec 10 22:10:31 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:10:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
Message-ID: <201012102210.oBAMAiNC014135@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I'll stick with "Professor Max". Close enough.

BTW, have all those of you interested in comics and especially the 
X-Men read my chapter, "From X to Ex: How the Marvel Myth Parallels 
the Real Posthuman Future" in The Unauthorized X-Men: SF and Comic 
Writers on Mutants, Prejudice and Adamantium, edited by Len Wein?
http://www.amazon.com/Unauthorized-X-Men-Writers-Prejudice-Adamantium/dp/1932100741/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292018983&sr=1-1

Being asked to write that is what got me back into comics after more 
than 20 years away.

Max


>John Grigg replied:
>
> >David, you must not know Max all that well, because he is a huge comic
> >book fan, and so I bet he would love to be Professor Xavier!  ; ) Well,
> >he might actually prefer being Magneto...
>
>I was thinking of Xavier's aspects of (though brilliant) being old, 
>bald, crippled, and pompous.
>
>Magneto has some of those qualities, but he's got a balancing pizzazz.
>
>
>-- David.
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 22:46:20 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 15:46:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 87, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <mailman.107.1292011977.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.107.1292011977.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=GbBhnjbAw3hmvyWoLu=1c=g4NdD6y81QHRfjT@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:12 PM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:44:51PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>>> Could you use tungsten as a heat exchanger?
>>>
>>> Have an onboard energy source, optimized for heat generation instead
>>> of thrust. ?(Maybe even fission/radioactives, so long as they don't get
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket
>>
>> see "Risks".
>>
>> They're not that good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse
>
> The first article gives a specific impulse of 850 seconds for a simple
> solid-core design. ?The latter gives specific impulses of 250-450 for
> modern chemical (solid or liquid fuel) rockets. ?Yes, there are better
> examples listed, but none that give 1G+ thrust. ?(Fuel efficiency is
> very desirable, but high thrust is required, for launching. ?So we can
> ignore any engines that do not give 1G+ thrust for that purpose, no
> matter their other benefits, even though they may be superior after
> orbit is achieved.)

If anyone really wants to understand what goes on with rocket design,
it can be done with a spread sheet and graphing software.

The key concepts are mission velocity and rocket exhaust velocity.  To
get into LEO takes around 9km/sec delta V.  Orbital is only 8 km/sec
but you burn somewhat more because of the time gravity is accelerating
you downwards and from air drag.

In simple terms, going to twice the exhaust velocity (which is what
you have to do with LH2/LOX), the mass of the fuel has to be about 85%
of the takeoff mass.  A reusable rocket is about 15% structure, which
leaves no payload using LH2/LOX.

Laser heated hydrogen at 3000 deg K has an exhaust velocity of 9.8
km/sec.  That means the structure plus payload can be 1/3rd of the
takeoff mass.  I.e., a 300 ton vehicle could reach orbit with 50 tons
of structure and 50 tons of payload.

To get in excess of one g takes around 6 GW.  The only way this makes
economic sense is if the lasers are run 90% of the time.

Keith



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 10 23:19:07 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 15:19:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 87, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=GbBhnjbAw3hmvyWoLu=1c=g4NdD6y81QHRfjT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.107.1292011977.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTi=GbBhnjbAw3hmvyWoLu=1c=g4NdD6y81QHRfjT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=oYSL+3FAPQ6HmNfa_GZV_TfWK7N9Fv1EhCczX@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> The key concepts are mission velocity and rocket exhaust velocity. ?To
> get into LEO takes around 9km/sec delta V. ?Orbital is only 8 km/sec
> but you burn somewhat more because of the time gravity is accelerating
> you downwards and from air drag.
>
> In simple terms, going to twice the exhaust velocity (which is what
> you have to do with LH2/LOX), the mass of the fuel has to be about 85%
> of the takeoff mass. ?A reusable rocket is about 15% structure, which
> leaves no payload using LH2/LOX.
>
> Laser heated hydrogen at 3000 deg K has an exhaust velocity of 9.8
> km/sec. ?That means the structure plus payload can be 1/3rd of the
> takeoff mass. ?I.e., a 300 ton vehicle could reach orbit with 50 tons
> of structure and 50 tons of payload.
>
> To get in excess of one g takes around 6 GW. ?The only way this makes
> economic sense is if the lasers are run 90% of the time.

If it's just a matter of exhaust velocity, what about ejecting stuff
at 100+ km/s?
You'd need to make sure it wasn't impacting anything, but that can be done by
accelerating straight up, then once high enough, shutting the engine down
briefly, pointing the rear along a path confirmed to be clear of anything, and
restarting the engine.  (Yes, mid-air engine restart is tricky, but far from
impossible, especially if you're ejecting discrete chunks - which, at that
exhaust velocity, you might be - instead of doing a constant burn.)



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 11 00:22:55 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:22:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] PSI, PSI*, and Psi
Message-ID: <958396.51628.qm@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


----- Original Message ----
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 10:27:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] PSI, PSI*, and Psi

> It sounds as if the TI is new to you, Stuart. It seems to me that some TI 
>version is the only way to make sense of the empirical world as I understand it 

>(including presentiment, etc). But Cramer's approach has been critiqued in, 
>e.g., Michael Price's Many World's FAQ:

TI is new to me, I ran across a reference to it while I was googling on 
retrocasuality.??
?
> < 5) Transactional model [C]. Explicitly non-local. An imaginative theory, 
>based on the Feynman-Wheeler absorber-emitter model of EM, in which advanced and 
>
>retarded probability amplitudes combine into an atemporal "transaction" to form 

>the Born probability density. It requires that the input and output states, as 
>defined by an observer, act as emitters and absorbers respectively, but not any 

>internal states (inside the "black box"), and, consequently, suffers from the 
>familiar measurement problem of the Copenhagen interpretation.

Huh? They are called internal states precisely because they can't be observed or 
measured. This is a problem (or a feature) of the math of QM?and not of this 
particular interpretation. Furthermore, as far as?I understand Cramer's 
explanation, any quantum?energy transfer?has both?an emitter and an absorber, 
regardless of whether there is an observer to define their I/O states or not. 
Therefore, the wavefunction does collapse but does so independently of an 
observer and without the necessity of invoking decoherence. Photons of 
light?exist independently of?eyes because if light didn't exist first, then eyes 
would never have evolved to see it.
?
> If the internal states did act as emitters/absorbers then the wavefunction 
>would collapse, for example, around one of the double slits (an internal state) 

>in the double slit experiment, destroying the observed interference fringes. In 

>transaction terminology a transaction would form between the first single slit 
>and one of the double slits and another transaction would form between the same 

>double slit and the point on the screen where the photon lands. This never 
>observed.>

Why would the slits be part of the transaction? The light source is the emitter 
and the screen is the absorber. If you replace the screen with a which-way 
detector, then that becomes the absorber. Since whatever you place after the 
slits sends a signal backwards in time to the emitter, the photon knows, before 
it ever starts it's journey, whether it is supposed to go through one slit or 
both. You can't fool light.
?
Another really cool?feature about TI that Cramer *doesn't* mention and maybe 
hasn't noticed, is that it directly predicts the vacuum energy of QFT. According 
to QFT,?every point of empty space is vibrating at?every?possible frequency. The 
energy of this vibration is that of the ground state quantum harmonic oscillator 
and is given by the formula:?energy = (1/2)?*?hbar?* omega. 

?
Since hbar is the reduced plancks constant which is planck's constant divided by 
2*pi, and omega is the angular frequency which is the Hertz frequency multiplied 
by 2*pi, you can simply cancel out the 2*pi and you get (1/2) * plancks constant 
* frequency. This means that every point in space is vibrating with exactly one 
half the energy of photons of every possible frequency. And this is precisely 
what you would expect if space was filled with?unconfirmed offer waves.

Stuart LaForge 


"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower 


      



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 11 00:24:37 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:24:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] R:  PSI, PSI*, and Psi
In-Reply-To: <23634886.250491291934951769.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <23634886.250491291934951769.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <868578.11742.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


>
>From: "scerir at alice.it" <scerir at alice.it>
>To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:49:11 PM
>Subject: [ExI] R: PSI, PSI*, and Psi
>
>Stuart, you are right, even more than in TI, the idea of two times is developed 

>in 
>
>the two-state time-symmetric quantum mechanics?where the kets |>?and the bras 
><|?
>have .... opposite 'times'.?But the original idea is written already?in one of 
>the fundamental 
>
>papers by Schroedinger (circa 1926-1927)
>http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0507269?
>http://arxiv.org/abs/0706.1347
>http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0606208
>http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0105101

Thanks for the links, Serafino.

?Stuart LaForge 


"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower 


      



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 11 02:28:08 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:28:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 87, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=oYSL+3FAPQ6HmNfa_GZV_TfWK7N9Fv1EhCczX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.107.1292011977.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTi=GbBhnjbAw3hmvyWoLu=1c=g4NdD6y81QHRfjT@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oYSL+3FAPQ6HmNfa_GZV_TfWK7N9Fv1EhCczX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005001cb98db$0d206e00$27614a00$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
...

>If it's just a matter of exhaust velocity, what about ejecting stuff at
100+ km/s?

Sure, but where do you get all the energy?

spike








From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Dec 11 02:47:19 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:47:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <003a01cb9887$c692d6b0$53b88410$@att.net>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com> <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
	<3a3e5f84b4e1b2db4a0e574d2a9c9dc8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<003a01cb9887$c692d6b0$53b88410$@att.net>
Message-ID: <8dccbb56d7440adcf86c860da4aeecb3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


>
> Could that movie have influenced an entire generation's attitude towards
> reproduction?  At my 30th reunion, I noticed my high school class didn't
> breed enough to replace ourselves.  The total number of offspring in that
> class was about 70%-ish the size of the class itself.
>

Interesting thought.  IIUC I am older than you (by a decade or so) and what
influenced my group was ZPG.  I have many friends who had no children at all. We had
2. Only a few old-time friends had 3.  My brothers (14 and 17 years older than I am)
each had larger families. ZPG didn't have any effect on them at all.

What stopped us (in particular) was finances.

Regards,
MB



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 11 03:18:43 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:18:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <8dccbb56d7440adcf86c860da4aeecb3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
	<4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>	<3a3e5f84b4e1b2db4a0e574d2a9c9dc8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>	<003a01cb9887$c692d6b0$53b88410$@att.net>
	<8dccbb56d7440adcf86c860da4aeecb3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <4D02ED93.9020704@satx.rr.com>

On 12/10/2010 8:47 PM, MB wrote:

> What stopped us (in particular) was finances.

What stopped me was eugenics.  :)

Damien Broderick


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 03:38:30 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 19:38:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 87, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <005001cb98db$0d206e00$27614a00$@att.net>
References: <mailman.107.1292011977.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTi=GbBhnjbAw3hmvyWoLu=1c=g4NdD6y81QHRfjT@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oYSL+3FAPQ6HmNfa_GZV_TfWK7N9Fv1EhCczX@mail.gmail.com>
	<005001cb98db$0d206e00$27614a00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxogPK1q-3H8Z0yY6GMm+O4WOyajZJyJiTv4i6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 6:28 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> ... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
>>If it's just a matter of exhaust velocity, what about ejecting stuff at
> 100+ km/s?
>
> Sure, but where do you get all the energy?

Bring a lightweight nuclear power plant?  (Shielded from the
exhaust, again.)


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 11 04:06:36 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 20:06:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
Message-ID: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>

> ... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
>>If it's just a matter of exhaust velocity, what about ejecting stuff at
100+ km/s?
>
>> Sure, but where do you get all the energy?

>Bring a lightweight nuclear power plant?  (Shielded from the exhaust,
again.)

Feynman suggested the concept in 1941.  NASA has managed to get drives that
could be hauled into orbit that are capable of sending an ion stream all in
the same direction with a velocity at around 30 km/sec.  This would provide
enormous *specific* thrust, but the total thrust is in the milli-newton
range.  So you could eventually use something like that to navigate in
space, but it requires patience.  It could be scaled up, but everything
scales together.  So haul this up to LEO, then use the ion drive to
accelerate to escape velocity, which might take a couple years, then off you
go.

We have orbited experimental ion drives.  They work as advertised, but as I
vaguely recall the solar cycle of 1990 peaked a little higher than expected,
which expanded the upper atmosphere, causing a bit more drag on the
satellite than anticipated, so it ended up re-entering with ion drives
screaming full throttle continuously for several months before the fiery
end.  That ion drive was an experimental tag along on another satellite as I
recall, don't have a reference.

spike   


 







From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 04:56:28 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:56:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <4D02ED93.9020704@satx.rr.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com> <4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>
	<3a3e5f84b4e1b2db4a0e574d2a9c9dc8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<003a01cb9887$c692d6b0$53b88410$@att.net>
	<8dccbb56d7440adcf86c860da4aeecb3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
	<4D02ED93.9020704@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=O4xxofScJFkbEtot9GLKW1tgZtPU2vB=P8ER4@mail.gmail.com>

>What stopped me was eugenics.
>Damien Broderick

What?!!  Damien, you are a very intelligent fellow, and that genetic
trait is at the top of the list for good qualities to pass on to the
next generation!  I hope you at least donated to a sperm bank...

John  : )

On 12/10/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 12/10/2010 8:47 PM, MB wrote:
>
>> What stopped us (in particular) was finances.
>
> What stopped me was eugenics.  :)
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 11 05:17:13 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:17:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=O4xxofScJFkbEtot9GLKW1tgZtPU2vB=P8ER4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4D017B3B.3090200@satx.rr.com>
	<4D01820A.7020506@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikjLh8v3vji+t0hEMg8fSrtmZGw8uqXEbpsr09c@mail.gmail.com>	<004701cb981d$ba670ba0$2f3522e0$@att.net>	<3a3e5f84b4e1b2db4a0e574d2a9c9dc8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>	<003a01cb9887$c692d6b0$53b88410$@att.net>	<8dccbb56d7440adcf86c860da4aeecb3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>	<4D02ED93.9020704@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=O4xxofScJFkbEtot9GLKW1tgZtPU2vB=P8ER4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D030959.6010405@satx.rr.com>

On 12/10/2010 10:56 PM, John Grigg wrote:

> I hope you at least donated to a sperm bank...

I gave at the office.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 06:57:35 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:57:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:06 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Feynman suggested the concept in 1941. ?NASA has managed to get drives that
> could be hauled into orbit that are capable of sending an ion stream all in
> the same direction with a velocity at around 30 km/sec. ?This would provide
> enormous *specific* thrust, but the total thrust is in the milli-newton
> range.

I think I recall reading about that.  This was why I was specifying that the
thrust-to-weight of the engine needed to include the power source, so you
can't get away with claiming "enormous" thrust without including everything
that would need to scale up in order to scale the engine up.

>?So you could eventually use something like that to navigate in
> space, but it requires patience. ?It could be scaled up, but everything
> scales together.

IIRC, the main problem was a heavy power source - and there's been much
research since then into lighter weight power sources.  So I wonder if it would
be possible, using today's technology, to build an ion engine that could
deliver 1G+ of thrust - again, including something to power said ion engine for
about 10 minutes.



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 11 07:10:13 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:10:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002201cb9902$751cd800$5f568800$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] specific thrust

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:06 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> ... This would provide enormous *specific* thrust, but the total thrust
is 
>> in the milli-newton range.

>...I think I recall reading about that.  This was why I was specifying that
the thrust-to-weight of the engine needed to include the power source, so
you can't get away with claiming "enormous" thrust without including
everything that would need to scale up in order to scale the engine up...

Ja, ion engines are only good for enormous specific thrust.

>>?So you could eventually use something like that to navigate in  space, 
>>but it requires patience. ?It could be scaled up, but everything  
>>scales together.

>...  So I wonder if it would be possible, using today's technology, to
build an ion engine that could deliver 1G+ of thrust - again, including
something to power said ion engine for about 10 minutes.  Adrian


I'm having a hard time imagining it.  State of the art for ion drives would
be in the microG range, if you optimize everything.  It's easier to imagine
a solar powered ion drive, or perhaps a standard solar powered hot xenon
drive, but both will still be down in microG territory.  We have those
already too, but they do take a long time to make anything happen.  Once you
take the cost of money into account, most of the time they go ahead and
choose old fashioned chemical propulsion, accepting low specific thrust in
exchange for high maximum thrust.

spike



 





From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 07:39:19 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:39:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <002201cb9902$751cd800$5f568800$@att.net>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
	<002201cb9902$751cd800$5f568800$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=caKqYeXdLRmHF-WYUu832ZvHB9ZcSe3OFSjAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:10 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Ja, ion engines are only good for enormous specific thrust.

Why is this?


From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Sat Dec 11 08:15:56 2010
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 19:15:56 +1100
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=caKqYeXdLRmHF-WYUu832ZvHB9ZcSe3OFSjAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
	<002201cb9902$751cd800$5f568800$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=caKqYeXdLRmHF-WYUu832ZvHB9ZcSe3OFSjAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101211191556.038e1fdb@optusnet.com.au>

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:39:19 -0800
Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:10 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > Ja, ion engines are only good for enormous specific thrust.
> 
> Why is this?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

E = 0.5* M * V * V

Enormous specific thrust means very high exhaust velocity.  That means
large amounts of energy per unit mass of exhaust.  To go from an
exhaust velocity of 3km/s (good chemical rocket) to 30km/s (low end ion
engine) increases your energy requirements by a factor of 100, while
only increasing your thrust by a factor of 10.

You can't do it with chemical based power.  The energy simply isn't
there. You need either nuclear, solar, or ground-based beamed power.

To get above 1G on an ion rocket would require a staggering amount of
power.

BOEC :
Assume:
	100 ton liftoff mass
	2G acceleration
	30 km/s exhaust
Leads to: 
	65 kg/s exhaust mass
	300 Gigawatts energy requirement

It gets worse as your ion drive gets better.

-David.


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Dec 11 08:38:27 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 03:38:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Specific Impulse
In-Reply-To: <005001cb98db$0d206e00$27614a00$@att.net>
References: <mailman.107.1292011977.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTi=GbBhnjbAw3hmvyWoLu=1c=g4NdD6y81QHRfjT@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oYSL+3FAPQ6HmNfa_GZV_TfWK7N9Fv1EhCczX@mail.gmail.com>
	<005001cb98db$0d206e00$27614a00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CEF1E2FA-8160-404D-A090-DDC779B59D2A@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 10, 2010, at 9:28 PM, spike wrote:

>> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
>> If it's just a matter of exhaust velocity, what about ejecting stuff at 100+ km/s?
> 
> Sure, but where do you get all the energy?

From americium.  And 100 km's is bush league, an americium rocket could give you 200,000 km/s.

 John K Clark


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From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Dec 11 09:10:15 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:10:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101211091015.GQ9434@leitl.org>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:57:35PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> IIRC, the main problem was a heavy power source - and there's been much
> research since then into lighter weight power sources.  So I wonder if it would

About the lightest power source is an almost unshielded reactor
running at close to self-destruction temperature. That is a nasty,
nasty thing.

> be possible, using today's technology, to build an ion engine that could
> deliver 1G+ of thrust - again, including something to power said ion engine for
> about 10 minutes.

You realize that ion engines don't work much below 100 km? 

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 11 09:19:57 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 01:19:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=caKqYeXdLRmHF-WYUu832ZvHB9ZcSe3OFSjAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>	<002201cb9902$751cd800$5f568800$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=caKqYeXdLRmHF-WYUu832ZvHB9ZcSe3OFSjAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301cb9914$94774070$bd65c150$@att.net>


On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] specific thrust

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:10 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>> Ja, ion engines are only good for enormous specific thrust.

>Why is this?

There is a lot of energy thru-put there, so the stuff to handle it is
inherently heavy.

Think of a particle accelerator like SLAC up the street here at Stanford.
That is an ion engine in a way: it accelerates mass to enormous velocities.
If that whole rig were up in space, it could be used to create a small
thrust while using verrry little mass, so its specific thrust would be off
the charts.  If we had that up there and arbitrarily much energy to
accelerate a tiny amount of matter, then the momentum still needs to be
conserved, to the entire SLAC would be gently pushed the other way, so then
we could go all over the place out there using so very little propellant.
So if you want to think of it as an engine, SLAC might hold the record for
the highest specific thrust anywhere.

Chemical propellant carries all its energy in the propellant itself, but
uses a hell of lot of it to go anywhere.  The equipment needed to do it is
very small, light and simple: a tank, a pressurization mechanism such as a
turbine, a combustion chamber, a nozzle and off ya go.  Solid propellant is
even simpler still: just a pressure vessel and a nozzle.  But those have
even lower specific thrust.  High peak thrust.  The highest peak thrust ever
I think is with solids, but I would need to look that upwards.  Are the
space shuttle solids higher peak thrust than a Saturn V first stage main
engine?

Back to particle accelerators, it might be interesting to try to estimate
the specific thrust to figure out how fast SLAC or CERN could accelerate if
you did have that device out in space.  A centimeter per square week?  

Imagine we created an MBrain which wanted to haul its star elsewhere.  This
is an exercise we did here about a decade ago, when Robert Bradbury's
imaginative writings kept us calculating into the night.  I vaguely recall
calculating it, and it came out on the order of a few meters per square
century or something like that, so that one could navigate to the escape
velocity of the Milky Way galaxy in about a couple billion years, as I
recall, or make it to the nearest star in 10 million or so.  In that case,
the sun with its MBrain would have a very high specific thrust, and even its
total thrust is high by the numbers we are accustomed to using, but it has a
lot of mass to get moving.

I might have that written in my green notebooks somewhere, or if I get in
the mood tomorrow I may repeat those calcs.

spike










From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Dec 11 09:53:39 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:53:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <000301cb9914$94774070$bd65c150$@att.net>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
	<002201cb9902$751cd800$5f568800$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=caKqYeXdLRmHF-WYUu832ZvHB9ZcSe3OFSjAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301cb9914$94774070$bd65c150$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20101211095339.GR9434@leitl.org>

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 01:19:57AM -0800, spike wrote:

> Chemical propellant carries all its energy in the propellant itself, but
> uses a hell of lot of it to go anywhere.  The equipment needed to do it is
> very small, light and simple: a tank, a pressurization mechanism such as a
> turbine, a combustion chamber, a nozzle and off ya go.  Solid propellant is
> even simpler still: just a pressure vessel and a nozzle.  But those have
> even lower specific thrust.  High peak thrust.  The highest peak thrust ever
> I think is with solids, but I would need to look that upwards.  Are the
> space shuttle solids higher peak thrust than a Saturn V first stage main
> engine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile

...

Nike X was a US system of two missiles, radars and their associated 
control systems. The original Nike Zeus (later called Spartan) was 
upgraded for longer range and a much larger 5 megatonne warhead 
intended to destroy warheads with a burst of x-rays outside the 
atmosphere. A second shorter-range missile called Sprint with 
very high acceleration was added to handle warheads that evaded 
longer-ranged Spartan. Sprint was a very fast missile (some 
sources claimed it accelerated to 8,000 mph (13 000 km/h) within 
4 seconds of flight?an average acceleration of 100 g) and had a 
smaller W66 enhanced radiation warhead in the 1-3 kiloton range 
for in-atmosphere interceptions.

...

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 10:07:25 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:07:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <20101209152145.GX9434@leitl.org>
References: <AANLkTi=Q2SXLx4--Cz-x6y4hTJa4DOs6UEVVwXMuuW_B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMbJhHY0eRW1=nMaeLXNGjPcQvroZ0T8CQXzMi@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb94ad$891fb240$9b5f16c0$@att.net>
	<201012091342.oB9DgQA0015968@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikYjeaeZtUYKECG4dE5PbVVL8sSDv+airHXC9pa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101209152145.GX9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim1EgZN5r==dBGTP9HVYwh91q6LSBBGCNAFv-1c@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/9/10, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 02:44:40PM +0000, BillK wrote:
>
>> The problem is that in the internet age security is actually a very
>> hard problem.
>
> The Internet has nothing to do with it.
>


You would need a very big briefcase to get hundreds of thousands of
documents into before networked computers, CDs and thumb drives
appeared.



>
>> <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SIPRNet>
>> Quote:
>> A 1993 GAO report estimated more than 3 million US military and
>> civilian personnel had clearance, and access is also available to a
>> "...small pool of trusted allies, including Australia, Canada, the
>> United Kingdom and New Zealand...".
>> -------
>>
>> So, try and secure that!   Not only US computers, but allies computers as
>> well.
>
> Typically you compartmentalize by need to know basis. You can use
> smart tokes for authentication and serve information keyed to said
> token, and use secure terminals in secure location. It is also
> easy to log access, lock out on recognized access patterns, introduce
> watermarks to each analyst account. Just because it has not been
> done in this case it doesn't mean it can't be done.


That's fine for small, tightly controlled networks.
We're talking about millions of computers under the control of
thousands of different
organisations.



>
>> The big problem with role-based security is that staff roles change
>> all the time. And it is difficult to decide what level the 'need to
>
> If you don't revoke access when the role changed than you know what
> you're doing wrong (or right) already.
>


Nowadays most people don't have one strict role. They do work for
several bosses and departments.  Security admin gets to be a real pain
sometimes.


>> know' stops at. So most organisations give people more clearance than
>> they need, 'just in case'.
>
> Spooks are not most organisations.
>


Spooks are a small part of the US government networks. And even they
are complaining about (or just ignoring) the latest controls (see
below).


>> Staff regard security as an obstacle to doing their job and quickly
>> find ways to bypass security measures that get in their way.
>
> You know what do with such staff.
>


Yea, I'd love to be a ruthless dictator as well.


<http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/12/military-bans-disks-threatens-courts-martials-to-stop-new-leaks/>

Quote:
Maj. Gen. Richard Webber, commander of Air Force Network Operations,
issued the Dec. 3 ?Cyber Control Order? ? obtained by Danger Room ?
which directs airmen to ?immediately cease use of removable media on
all systems, servers, and stand alone machines residing on SIPRNET,?
the Defense Department?s secret network. Similar directives have gone
out to the military?s other branches.

An August internal review suggested that the Pentagon disable all
classified computers? ability to write to removable media. About 60
percent of military machines are now connected to a Host Based
Security System, which looks for anomalous behavior. And now there?s
this disk-banning order.

The order acknowledges that the ban will make life trickier for some troops.

?Users will experience difficulty with transferring data for
operational needs which could impede timeliness on mission execution,?
the document admits.
-----------


It could get tricky if these security measures cause mission execution problems.
People could be dying while the data is kept secure.

Security is always a trade-off.

And, of course, in the end the US military can only secure its own
computers, which is only part of SIPRNet.


BillK



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 13:32:52 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 14:32:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=P9nDM_q5J1qddC1HmQpxzo_PDCnbwms7V5wN4@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 December 2010 22:36, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, perhaps the guy is still a patriot who just thinks
> what he found was so off the rails that it needed to be corrected and
> this was the only way he figured it could be done.  It's a problem you
> get from people running up against real life when they have been
> taught American idealism in school.
>

Patriot for what? The Australian Empire to rule the world in a distant
future?

What an Iraqi or a North Korean or even a Chinese patriot should do if he
could put his hands on US confidential or embarassing information? A
libertarian? An old-style anarchist?

Should an Australian citizen feel by definition in any especial way about
it?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 13:19:52 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 14:19:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alcock on Bem in Skeptical Inquirer.
In-Reply-To: <526510F4-5333-43ED-A12E-115DB6255C0E@bellsouth.net>
References: <4CF9D7DF.4060900@satx.rr.com>
	<EE2C789E-7FF1-4F15-A25D-9659F13EC429@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikzmc=dS-Yr-daM8+0AciteWGe3C5bJ7MJT-DhG@mail.gmail.com>
	<88EDFFDD-51AE-4EB0-A53B-8737394876B7@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinbc6NdFxEA-R4B+3AzDoygt0aoSNX4RB7ewm_m@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFD86BB.1070400@satx.rr.com>
	<51D151A5-8F24-45E6-92CF-96D03E750F96@bellsouth.net>
	<4CFE77C7.7090609@satx.rr.com>
	<53B9FFB3-317F-4FE9-8BC2-F9FD8F3C73AA@bellsouth.net>
	<4CFE8DAD.6000302@satx.rr.com>
	<1866C35E-7486-42A0-A8EE-BD3A76075B49@bellsouth.net>
	<4CFFDB48.1030203@satx.rr.com>
	<526510F4-5333-43ED-A12E-115DB6255C0E@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikeUJ=2bz_Lmb3e=ndyC7er5Yy6Ek8b=YA8PA3u@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/9 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> Given our idiotic legal system you could be right. James (The Amazing)
> Randi has been sued by Uri Geller many times for pointing out the obvious
> fact that the man was a fraud, and one time he even won; a court in Japan
> found Randi guilty not of libel but of "insult", in Japan it can be illegal
> to say something bad about someone even if its true.
>

In Italy it is definitely illegal to say something bad about someone even if
it is true (you cannot call "whore" a whore, e.g., for the purpose of
insulting her), unless the plaintiff in the libel action expressly grants
his opponent the broadening of the scope to the case to the merits of the
accusation (which is normally done, since failure to do so is usually
considered as a public admission by the plaintiff of the truth of what he is
blamed  of).

As far as I can tell, the US system is somewhat practically more inclined to
favour freedom of speech than the continental or the English system, but the
principles per se are not so different (see
http://www.spawn.org/marketing/slander.htm), since the "truth" is  very far
from being a blanket defence a libel action even there.

What makes the difference in most circumstances, however, is that you may
well factually hallenge the truth of a claim or the competence of the
claimant without calling him a "liar" or an "idiot".

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 15:03:01 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:03:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Soy, brain aging,
 and false advertising (Re: Have a Soylent Green Xmas!)
In-Reply-To: <4D027909.1090109@gnolls.org>
References: <mailman.1.1291982401.24553.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4D027909.1090109@gnolls.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=LV65MAPsr6Q8e2Kvb_frvwFdY5onTaPPYYpnC@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 2:01 PM, J. Stanton <js_exi at gnolls.org> wrote:
> Note that cattle can't digest soy or corn properly either (they're ruminants
> -- grass-eaters), which is why they need to be pumped full of antibiotics (a
> primary cause of the worldwide antibiotic resistance problem -- far more
> antibiotics are fed to cattle than to humans) in order to stay alive in
> feedlots.

How many cattle have you raised, J.? I've raised a dozen or so, so
far, and none of them had any trouble digesting feed with corn and
other grains without *any* antibiotics. I don't doubt that there's
antibiotic use and abuse at some large feedlots, but a lot of cattle
are produced by smaller operations that don't engage in the alleged
abuses and excesses of the larger, corporate operations.

> In fact, the entire term "vegetable oil" is false advertising, because it's
> not made from vegetables at all: it's an industrial product, extracted from
> seeds using industrial solvents (hexane).

J., you've got good arguments against vegetable oils, but claiming
that calling them that is false advertising isn't one of them. One of
the accepted definitions of "vegetable" as an adjective is "derived
from plants", and that's how it's used in "vegetable oil"--to
distinguish it from oils of animal or mineral origin.

-Dave


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 15:56:31 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:56:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Halcyon Molecular interview
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=+wg8ZTdgHc7mkcNKac9cdLcjt7s7S_JVXC-KG@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 December 2010 23:43, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:

> Halycon Molecular interview
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/interview-of-gene-sequencing-expert.html
>
> As for Kurzweil, maybe this isn?t fair, and I?d like to hear his thoughts
> on
> it, but I?m afraid his books demotivate people who would otherwise
> contribute to the cause, maybe by giving the impression to some that the
> Singularity is not only coming, but actually inevitable. Eat right,
> exercise, take these pills, and don?t worry- those smart hardworking
> scientists over there will solve everything for you.
>

Why; this is by no means an attitude limited to Kurzweil, and it is my main
critique to some brands of Singularitarianism (including those who add "as
long as you steer them and keep them under control" to the last line, which
is even worse after a fashion implying not just passivity but actual
mistrust with regard to an assumedly automagic "runaway progress")...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 17:24:25 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 09:24:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Specific Impulse
In-Reply-To: <CEF1E2FA-8160-404D-A090-DDC779B59D2A@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.107.1292011977.443.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTi=GbBhnjbAw3hmvyWoLu=1c=g4NdD6y81QHRfjT@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oYSL+3FAPQ6HmNfa_GZV_TfWK7N9Fv1EhCczX@mail.gmail.com>
	<005001cb98db$0d206e00$27614a00$@att.net>
	<CEF1E2FA-8160-404D-A090-DDC779B59D2A@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMF6jgm_+wrLSBrf9ruuOMNqPsYvVoHp9ACs1b@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/11 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> From americium. ?And 100 km's is bush league

...pun intended?  ;)



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 17:31:21 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:31:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Re :rocket fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
Message-ID: <AANLkTinSjS_A--Neq-HM6AD0p9p_a0tmxGPUrMBcr0f+@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 5:00 AM,   Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:



"

> In terms of economy you're likely to employ a hybrid design.
> A maglev launch stage (e.g. up Mount Chimborazo) instead of a first
> chemical stage, second stage air-breathing scramjet/rocket hybrid
> or simple chemical rocket, or laser driven ablation (not sure this
> will ever work, though current prototypes are sure nifty).

If you have never looked at the power requirement for maglev, you should.

> Also, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with chemical rockets,
> as long as your transport rate is limited, e.g. for a lunar bootstrap
> using in-situ resources. Suited monkeys are quite pointless, so you'll
> proceed to teleoperated robots shortly, and whether you teleoperate
> them from a pressurized can nearby or from rotating ground centers (with
> the advantage of 24/7 operation) only adds about 2 seconds of latency.

Dr. Peter Schubert is the only one I know of who tried to put numbers
on a lunar bootstrap.  He got $2 T and 20 years.

Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The key concepts are mission velocity and rocket exhaust velocity. ?To
>> get into LEO takes around 9km/sec delta V. ?Orbital is only 8 km/sec
>> but you burn somewhat more because of the time gravity is accelerating
>> you downwards and from air drag.
>>
>> In simple terms, going to twice the exhaust velocity (which is what
>> you have to do with LH2/LOX), the mass of the fuel has to be about 85%
>> of the takeoff mass. ?A reusable rocket is about 15% structure, which
>> leaves no payload using LH2/LOX.
>>
>> Laser heated hydrogen at 3000 deg K has an exhaust velocity of 9.8
>> km/sec. ?That means the structure plus payload can be 1/3rd of the
>> takeoff mass. ?I.e., a 300 ton vehicle could reach orbit with 50 tons
>> of structure and 50 tons of payload.
>>
>> To get in excess of one g takes around 6 GW. ?The only way this makes
>> economic sense is if the lasers are run 90% of the time.
>
> If it's just a matter of exhaust velocity, what about ejecting stuff
> at 100+ km/s?

As other people mentioned later, energy.

mv =MV, but Ke = 1/2mv^2

Ten times the exhaust velocity takes 100 times as much energy.  We are
already at $60 B for the lasers, 100 times as much is $6 T.  It would
take 1.2 TW to power the lasers.  That's more than the installed
electric power for the US.

Keith

PS.  It would, however, make a hell of a weapon.  6GW is 1.5 tons of
TNT per second.  600 GW would be 150 tons of TNT per second, less than
two hours for a megaton.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 17:50:37 2010
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 09:50:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <20101211091015.GQ9434@leitl.org>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101211091015.GQ9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimVdzdhV9LEUsWJUKEasBQ+59Ee=sh73LLnzckU@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:57:35PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>> IIRC, the main problem was a heavy power source - and there's been much
>> research since then into lighter weight power sources. ?So I wonder if it would
>
> About the lightest power source is an almost unshielded reactor
> running at close to self-destruction temperature. That is a nasty,
> nasty thing.

Well yeah.  But that aside, there are lighter safe power sources
available today.

Also, the arguments about needing a lot of power for an ion engine skip the
fact that, today, we can get systems of (ion engine + power source) that deliver
positive thrust.  So why not just strap a bunch of those together?  That the
rocket might be 90+% engine is not all that different from today - and some of
that would likely be reusable as the structure of a reusable rocket.

>> be possible, using today's technology, to build an ion engine that could
>> deliver 1G+ of thrust - again, including something to power said ion engine for
>> about 10 minutes.
>
> You realize that ion engines don't work much below 100 km?

Ah, now that I did not know.  Is it not possible to evacuate the
engine long enough
to gain that much altitude?  (Though, one could use balloons to gain
mere altitude
and launch from there, using ion engines to get up to orbital speed.)



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 21:44:24 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 22:44:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Project Orion , was rocket fuel
Message-ID: <AANLkTimz2RBz4mKSeF6jXXRfU05yeLGqPD0XbsOp879b@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 December 2010 22:47, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> You will not get NERVA-type rockets approved, nevermind something
> as dirty as an Orion. That's not a handicap, that's a feature.
>

I do not expect, nor would actually wish, Orion Project vehicles routinely
utilised to bring things our of the earth's gravitational well (I do not
cherish the prospective of getting a cancer myself...), but certainly would
aesthetically love to see them used at least a few times, ideally for
"bootstrapping" purposes.

Think for instance of space-based solar power, or space-elevator lunar
Helium-3 mining, or whatever. I suspect that once one has obtained a
sufficient quantity of cheap energy at ground level in the first place, it
would be easy enough to revert to lower-efficiency, but more environmentally
friendly, technologies.

And I also suspect that while adverse consequences of Project Orion
propulsion cannot be entirely avoided, much could be done in comparison with
the 60s tech originally considered...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 21:47:39 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 22:47:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] specific thrust
In-Reply-To: <20101211091015.GQ9434@leitl.org>
References: <000b01cb98e8$ce64d3a0$6b2e7ae0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinweHU_u6BuTUsNGbV8Pkq7VvzbxuvrXKDEg5Xd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101211091015.GQ9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimfc5gcyzfgQn0utkPBSC+=haMactwgg1dymWdG@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 December 2010 10:10, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

>
> About the lightest power source is an almost unshielded reactor
> running at close to self-destruction temperature. That is a nasty,
> nasty thing.
>

It depends on whether you have actually to sit on it. If it is used in an
orbit around Mars, I think we can live with it...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 11 23:54:05 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 00:54:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik9dJjzA9w+2cqkHrtp-CtnExRqHhoATVCaaz1e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 December 2010 15:54, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> If they think having the word "immortality" in their current title is
> a bad idea in terms of social acceptance, I suggest "Get Sick and Die
> Soon" as a new name.
>

:-D

"Social acceptance" is of course a very dubious concern if one considers his
primary task to be exactly that of changing what is "socially acceptable".

But I never liked much the term of "immortality", which suggests
a) an inability to die,
b) a somewhat metaphysically-tainted concept of infinity.

On the other hand, "Indefinite Lifespan Institute" may not sound so well in
English... :-/

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sun Dec 12 01:26:14 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 20:26:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik9dJjzA9w+2cqkHrtp-CtnExRqHhoATVCaaz1e@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik9dJjzA9w+2cqkHrtp-CtnExRqHhoATVCaaz1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201012120126.oBC1QLYn009940@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Stefano wrote:

>But I never liked much the term of "immortality", which suggests
>a) an inability to die,
>b) a somewhat metaphysically-tainted concept of infinity.

When I talk to others, I don't say I want to be immortal. I think it makes
one sound like a nut and/or a Highlander fan boy.

I want to live until I don't want to live any more.

I want to finish off my to-do list. Going, doing, and learning everything
I want will take about 3,000 years, and I expect I'll add to the list as
more things become possible.


-- David.



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 01:15:01 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:15:01 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=P9nDM_q5J1qddC1HmQpxzo_PDCnbwms7V5wN4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=P9nDM_q5J1qddC1HmQpxzo_PDCnbwms7V5wN4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinFHwbreiwc=YU51-nkGsMdFLTTHfibwNT3ACFp@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/12 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 9 December 2010 22:36, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On the other hand, perhaps the guy is still a patriot who just thinks
>> what he found was so off the rails that it needed to be corrected and
>> this was the only way he figured it could be done. ?It's a problem you
>> get from people running up against real life when they have been
>> taught American idealism in school.
>
> Patriot for what? The Australian Empire to rule the world in a distant
> future?
>
> What an Iraqi or a North Korean or even a Chinese patriot should do if he
> could put his hands on US confidential or embarassing information? A
> libertarian? An old-style anarchist?
>
> Should an Australian citizen feel by definition in any especial way about
> it?

I think Keith was talking about the original leaker, a US soldier, not
Assange. But in any case, Australia has been so consistently close to
the US in foreign policy for so long that Australians may as well feel
the same responsibility as US citizens.

One of the WikiLeaks documents shows a major figure in the current
Australian federal government effectively spying on his own party for
the Americans, and my impression of the reaction is that this isn't
even seen as particularly surprising or concerning here.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/yank-in-the-ranks-20101208-18pwi.html


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 11:52:33 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:52:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinFHwbreiwc=YU51-nkGsMdFLTTHfibwNT3ACFp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=P9nDM_q5J1qddC1HmQpxzo_PDCnbwms7V5wN4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFHwbreiwc=YU51-nkGsMdFLTTHfibwNT3ACFp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim6Eg8j_dbzm12tvY76DEYDm6xupOC1EieQhUtg@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2010 02:15, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think Keith was talking about the original leaker, a US soldier, not
> Assange. But in any case, Australia has been so consistently close to
> the US in foreign policy for so long that Australians may as well feel
> the same responsibility as US citizens.
>

... or perhaps feel that time has come for an Australian Independence War..
:-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sun Dec 12 13:44:15 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:44:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinFHwbreiwc=YU51-nkGsMdFLTTHfibwNT3ACFp@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=P9nDM_q5J1qddC1HmQpxzo_PDCnbwms7V5wN4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFHwbreiwc=YU51-nkGsMdFLTTHfibwNT3ACFp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201012121344.oBCDiQgY005155@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Stathis wrote:

>I think Keith was talking about the original leaker, a US soldier, 
>not Assange. But in any case, Australia has been so consistently 
>close to the US in foreign policy for so long that Australians may 
>as well feel the same responsibility as US citizens. One of the 
>WikiLeaks documents shows a major figure in the current Australian 
>federal government effectively spying on his own party for the 
>Americans, and my impression of the reaction is that this isn't even 
>seen as particularly surprising or concerning here.

Since Australia has troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Australians could
probably charge Assange with treason.

The public discussion here in the US has focused on our Constitution and
legal principles. But Assange has angered the Powers That Be of assorted
governments, with differing legal standards, punctiliousness, and comfort
with extra-judicial violent solutions.

And some of them have long memories. I suspect he will be at risk for the
rest of his life.

But he did make it to an SNL skit last night, played by Bill Hader.


-- David.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 14:03:27 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:03:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Immortality Institute is planning to change their
 name to "Longecity"
In-Reply-To: <201012120126.oBC1QLYn009940@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTin3+4+ff6Hi6RdpNvSoLRDCnYqu_h98NmQuX=rK@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikc9Be5Ubo7Ce3V=q7UqL_QgcwrhP6vkDms-NSp@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik9dJjzA9w+2cqkHrtp-CtnExRqHhoATVCaaz1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<201012120126.oBC1QLYn009940@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiknd83AZBs844Njes+xd38WV_mu0pjvrzEd=9YW@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2010 02:26, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:

> I want to live until I don't want to live any more.
>

Exactly my point. In fact, I can even live with the idea that some
unexpected accident may terminate my life at any point in time (and I am not
so fond of contemporary obsession for safety). What I personally hate is the
acceptance of a more or less fixed time limit, in the fashion that
supermarket products expire no  matter how well you conserve them.

I want to finish off my to-do list. Going, doing, and learning everything
> I want will take about 3,000 years, and I expect I'll add to the list as
> more things become possible.
>

In principle, my immediate target would be even less ambitious, probably on
the scale of  800-1000 years. After that, I may well find new interests, or
genetically-programmed survival instincts may simply kick in, or not, but
whatever it may be it is not such a present concern for me.

For the time being, what I find of primary interest is the progressive
extension of potential lifespan (and/or the emulation of my identity on
other biological or non-biological substrates).

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 14:09:55 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 15:09:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <201012121344.oBCDiQgY005155@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=P9nDM_q5J1qddC1HmQpxzo_PDCnbwms7V5wN4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFHwbreiwc=YU51-nkGsMdFLTTHfibwNT3ACFp@mail.gmail.com>
	<201012121344.oBCDiQgY005155@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinNqe7xkcnmxrfG2ugjNQtK-HgYCWjBP4EyTqiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2010 14:44, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:

> The public discussion here in the US has focused on our Constitution and
> legal principles. But Assange has angered the Powers That Be of assorted
> governments, with differing legal standards, punctiliousness, and comfort
> with extra-judicial violent solutions.
>
> And some of them have long memories. I suspect he will be at risk for the
> rest of his life.
>

Unless conspiracy nuts, who are typically angered by seeing a few of their
theories confirmed and therefore banalised, are right when they maintain
that Assance is in truth a CIA or Mossad operative who has leaked
unimportant information in order to distract people from "true" secrets
and/or to obfuscate them... :-D

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 16:45:08 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:45:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks
In-Reply-To: <201012121344.oBCDiQgY005155@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTik_1HB6mQGsi-MJuv8naH_L9nfrkopDNEmsJMHX@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=P9nDM_q5J1qddC1HmQpxzo_PDCnbwms7V5wN4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFHwbreiwc=YU51-nkGsMdFLTTHfibwNT3ACFp@mail.gmail.com>
	<201012121344.oBCDiQgY005155@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=4YCQPZPLKrLjAUztifXCAW+5AdPBVmOcykoa1@mail.gmail.com>

>Since Australia has troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Australians could
probably charge Assange with treason.<

I wonder why none of those claiming "Assange must die" or something like
bother to mention the fact that if Wikileaks is through some legal or
national security bullshit slight-of-hand held criminally, civically or even
morally responsible for leaking the documents, then the New York Times, The
London Guardian and host of other newspapers should be as well. It was a
joint effort: the mainstream press worked with Wikileaks in going through
the documents to decide which should be leaked, and which should be held
back due to security concerns. I imagine editorial board meetings at the
Times are interesting these days. Those guys are smart enough to know the
score, and politically savvy enough to know what they can print and what
they can't.

Wikileaks takes the fall, and yet they were interested enough to see what
would happen to stir the pot. You can't trust the news, because in this
case, the news is the news. I don't recall anyone trying to shut down the
Washington Post because they leaked Watergate. Perhaps Nixon and Kissinger
should have taken just that tack: savage the fifth estate and ignore the
content of the revelations as "harmful."  And like most major scandals,
nothing in the end will get resolved in the mind of the public because
people will just get "sick" of the story and wish it would go away. Meantime
governments will try and pass some draconian international law that will
protect their operational freedoms by limiting those of their citizens.

I'm not sick of hearing about it. I'm fairly sick of hearing ordinary people
repeat the evening news party line that Wikileaks is responsible because
they "
put us all at risk."  I keep thinking of that prescient quip by Benjamin
Franklin that states: "Any nation that sacrifices liberty for security
deserves neither, and will lose both."

Darren

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:44 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> Stathis wrote:
>
>  I think Keith was talking about the original leaker, a US soldier, not
>> Assange. But in any case, Australia has been so consistently close to the US
>> in foreign policy for so long that Australians may as well feel the same
>> responsibility as US citizens. One of the WikiLeaks documents shows a major
>> figure in the current Australian federal government effectively spying on
>> his own party for the Americans, and my impression of the reaction is that
>> this isn't even seen as particularly surprising or concerning here.
>>
>
> Since Australia has troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Australians could
> probably charge Assange with treason.
>
> The public discussion here in the US has focused on our Constitution and
> legal principles. But Assange has angered the Powers That Be of assorted
> governments, with differing legal standards, punctiliousness, and comfort
> with extra-judicial violent solutions.
>
> And some of them have long memories. I suspect he will be at risk for the
> rest of his life.
>
> But he did make it to an SNL skit last night, played by Bill Hader.
>
>
> -- David.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 12 17:14:50 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 09:14:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] inserting backdated posts, was RE:  Who is safe?
Message-ID: <002101cb9a20$15ba4130$412ec390$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Darren Greer
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 8:45 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Who is safe? was Re: Wikileaks

 

>Since Australia has troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Australians could
probably charge Assange with treason.<

 

I wonder why none of those claiming "Assange must die" or something like
bother to mention the fact that if Wikileaks is through some legal or
national security bullshit slight-of-hand held criminally, civically or even
morally responsible for leaking the documents.

 

 

 

I agree.  The story itself contains contradictions.  We hear of classified
information that was taken from an unsecured link, but nothing of the
leakers, those who put the info on an unsecured medium, which really is
illegal.  I don't mean PFC Manning, but rather the apparent authors.
Neither do I hear the obvious: if classified info was copied, how can it be
verified that it was genuine?  I suspect it was counterfeit, or was
liberally mixed with intentionally counterfeit posts.

 

In this spirit I now ask: can you think of any advantages or disadvantages
of generating back dated counterfeit ExI posts and placing them in the
archives?  If we could create an index of the inserted posts, which could
later be used to demonstrate *any* opinion we needed, anything from being
pro-singularity, anti-singularity, any position we wanted regarding global
warming etc.  

 

Of course if we do that, we give away the actual crystal clear foresight
which was occasionally demonstrated on this list, specifically with regards
to the future of war.  Some of those posts from over a decade ago were spot
on with what history is revealing today.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From js_exi at gnolls.org  Sun Dec 12 19:46:05 2010
From: js_exi at gnolls.org (J. Stanton)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:46:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Corn, soy, and cattle (was Soy, brain aging,
	and false advertising)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292155201.802.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1292155201.802.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4D05267D.5060502@gnolls.org>

From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
> 2:01 PM, J. Stanton <js_exi at gnolls.org> wrote:
>> >  Note that cattle can't digest soy or corn properly either (they're ruminants
>> >  -- grass-eaters), which is why they need to be pumped full of antibiotics (a
>> >  primary cause of the worldwide antibiotic resistance problem -- far more
>> >  antibiotics are fed to cattle than to humans) in order to stay alive in
>> >  feedlots.
> How many cattle have you raised, J.? I've raised a dozen or so, so
> far, and none of them had any trouble digesting feed with corn and
> other grains without*any*  antibiotics. I don't doubt that there's
> antibiotic use and abuse at some large feedlots, but a lot of cattle
> are produced by smaller operations that don't engage in the alleged
> abuses and excesses of the larger, corporate operations.

I certainly won't tell you how to raise cattle :) but I'm going off 
sources like this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/05/010511074623.htm

Referring to this paper (caution: paywall)
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/292/5519/1119.short

"Domestic ruminants in developed countries are often fed an abundance of 
grain and little fiber. When ruminants are fed fiber-deficient rations, 
physiological mechanisms of homeostasis are disrupted, ruminal pH 
declines, microbial ecology is altered, and the animal becomes more 
susceptible to metabolic disorders and, in some cases, infectious 
disease. Some disorders can be counteracted by feed additives (for 
example, antibiotics and buffers), but these additives can alter the 
composition of the ruminal ecosystem even further."

That being said, I'm sure the positive health impact of NOT raising 
cattle in feces up to their ankles is substantial (skip to about 5:30):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69gT9LBCMxg

So part of the effect of grain-based diets on cattle is direct 
(digestive problems) and part of the effect is indirect (concentration 
of animals into feedlots, which is only made possible by a grain-based 
diet).  Then there is the problem that grain-based diets for cattle 
create and spread acid-resistant E.coli (the strains that cause actual 
sickness and death in humans because they can survive the digestive tract).

It's clear that if you want to make cows as fat as possible as quickly 
as possible without regard to their health, you should feed them lots of 
grain and grain products.  I think there is a lesson here for humans.

That being said, I don't blame anyone for feeding grain to their 
cattle...when we subsidize it so heavily to make it so cheap, it's the 
obvious thing to do.  And sustainable grazing is actually a lot of work, 
because you're moving the cattle around daily with small electric fences 
in order to mimic the movement patterns of native grazers (like 
buffalo), which move around continually and let the grass regenerate 
instead of eating it down to the ground where they are before moving on.

>> >  In fact, the entire term "vegetable oil" is false advertising, because it's
>> >  not made from vegetables at all: it's an industrial product, extracted from
>> >  seeds using industrial solvents (hexane).
> J., you've got good arguments against vegetable oils, but claiming
> that calling them that is false advertising isn't one of them. One of
> the accepted definitions of "vegetable" as an adjective is "derived
> from plants", and that's how it's used in "vegetable oil"--to
> distinguish it from oils of animal or mineral origin.

By that standard, fruits and nuts are really just vegetables because 
they're derived from plants.  That may be technically true, as 
"vegetable" is not a precisely defined term -- but commonly understood 
usage, including the "food pyramid", defines "vegetables" as separate 
entities from other plant products such as fruits, nuts, grains, and 
starches.

Wikipedia gets it about right: "The noun vegetable usually means an 
edible plant or part of a plant *other than a sweet fruit or seed.* 
[emphasis mine] This usually means the leaf, stem, or root of a plant.

However, the word is not scientific, and its meaning is largely based on 
culinary and cultural tradition."

JS
http://www.gnolls.org


From js_exi at gnolls.org  Sun Dec 12 19:46:57 2010
From: js_exi at gnolls.org (J. Stanton)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:46:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] More information on EOD fasting for the CR/life extension
	crowd
Message-ID: <4D0526B1.2000500@gnolls.org>


I'm seeing more and more evidence that EOD (every other day) fasting 
gains us most of the same benefits as full-time calorie restriction.

There are many intriguing specifics in this paper, which I'll leave 
those interested to read, but I will quote the summary:

"Muscle Physiology Changes Induced by Every Other Day Feeding and 
Endurance Exercise in Mice: Effects on Physical Performance"
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013900

"In summary, our work indicate that a nutritional stress induced by the 
EOD model of CR together with a moderate increase of energy expenditure 
through physical exercise produces metabolic changes that increase the 
efficiency of mitochondrial activity in muscle, reduces oxidative damage 
and improves physical performance. Subtle modifications at the cellular 
and biochemical levels in response to dietary stress seem to be the 
basis for a higher mitochondrial efficiency. Taking into consideration 
that the decline in physical activity during age is a common factor in 
many species, the results shown here suggest that the combination of the 
reduction of calorie intake and the practice of aerobic exercise would 
also increase physical performance in humans and then, improve their 
quality of life."

JS
http://www.gnolls.org



From js_exi at gnolls.org  Sun Dec 12 19:47:59 2010
From: js_exi at gnolls.org (J. Stanton)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 11:47:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
Message-ID: <4D0526EF.6040504@gnolls.org>


For those who didn't see Michael Rose's talk at Humanity+ at Caltech:

"How to achieve ?biological immortality? naturally"
http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-achieve-biological-immortality-naturally

This appears to support the theory advanced in this paper, which I 
posted previously:

"Glucose Hysteresis as a Mechanism in Dietary Restriction, Aging and
Disease"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755292/

In other words, not only is a 'paleo' diet (which includes periodic 
fasting, as per my previous message, as well as a meat/vegetable/some 
tuber/occasional fruit and nut diet) better for your short-term health, 
mood, and energy level: it may actually extend your life.

Of course, this is all still in the 'theory' stage.  But since the 
'theory' that low fat intake and a diet high in processed grains is good 
for your health has been immediately followed by skyrocketing rates of 
obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, I'm comfortable working on the 
assumption that a diet (and physical activity) informed by evolutionary 
biology is healthy.

JS
http://www.gnolls.org



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sun Dec 12 19:54:34 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 14:54:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] inserting backdated posts, was RE:  Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <002101cb9a20$15ba4130$412ec390$@att.net>
References: <002101cb9a20$15ba4130$412ec390$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201012121954.oBCJsX60021092@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>I agree.  The story itself contains contradictions.  We hear of 
>classified information that was taken from an unsecured link, but 
>nothing of the leakers, those who put the info on an unsecured 
>medium, which really is illegal.  I don't mean PFC Manning, but 
>rather the apparent authors.  Neither do I hear the obvious: if 
>classified info was copied, how can it be verified that it was 
>genuine?  I suspect it was counterfeit, or was liberally mixed with 
>intentionally counterfeit posts.

A tweet led me to a URL with an odd "document", allegedly from the State
Department leaks: <http://www.ding.net/wikileaks/234867.txt>.

Was this an actual DoS document that some clown classified? Or is it a
hoax page?

It occurs to me that, if I were in US intelligence, I'd either reduce the
reliability of a document that asserted that X1 did Y1 with a flood of docs
that asserted X1 did not do Y1, X2 did Y1, X1 did Y2, etc., or use
WikiLeaks to spread disinformation.

An example of the latter: a document that asserts that Z is a US intel asset
when he is actually an adversary may succeed in undercutting Z's position
among his enemy pals.


-- David.



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 20:05:56 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 13:05:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
Message-ID: <AANLkTimdYS5nBQdpCpeJke2b93HPqN4eD_TmmQ8DhAcs@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 9 December 2010 22:36, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, perhaps the guy is still a patriot who just thinks
>> what he found was so off the rails that it needed to be corrected and
>> this was the only way he figured it could be done. ?It's a problem you
>> get from people running up against real life when they have been
>> taught American idealism in school.
>>
> Patriot for what? The Australian Empire to rule the world in a distant
> future?

As others pointed out, you lost the context.  I was discussing PFC
Manning not Assange.

I don't have a security clearance, never have had one.  I do know a
number of people who have security clearances, including some who are
currently under orders not to access Wikileaks.  Was talking to such a
person not long ago and mentioned how silly such orders seemed to me.
The orders have backed off to let people in the government read the
NYT Wikileaks based stories.

However, as this person pointed out, the order not to read Wikileaks
materials is rational.  We have the example of PFC Manning who read
them and was turned against the US by what he read in those cables,
not to mention the gunship video.

Keith



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 12 20:28:17 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:28:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <4D0526EF.6040504@gnolls.org>
References: <4D0526EF.6040504@gnolls.org>
Message-ID: <002c01cb9a3b$1ccee460$566cad20$@att.net>

...On Behalf Of J. Stanton
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
...

>"How to achieve 'biological immortality' naturally"
http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-achieve-biological-immortality-naturally

>This appears to support the theory advanced in this paper, which I posted
previously:

>"Glucose Hysteresis as a Mechanism in Dietary Restriction, Aging and
Disease"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755292/

>In other words, not only is a 'paleo' diet (which includes periodic
fasting, as per my previous message, as well as a meat/vegetable/some
tuber/occasional fruit and nut diet) better for your short-term health,
mood, and energy level: it may actually extend your life...Of course, this
is all still in the 'theory' stage...JS


I never thought of it as a life extension technique, but for at least the
past 35 yrs, I have had an intuition that occasional fasting is good for the
health.  The old timers suggested it too.  I mean once or twice a year going
an entire day with no food, only water.  And go light rations once in a
while, such as a couple days with about half the normal fare once a month or
so, just for the perspective it offers.  Or going a couple days with only
leafy stuff with no dressing for instance.  This practice causes one to
enjoy normal meals more, knowing the alternative.  I suggest nothing too
painful, just something that adjusts one's attitude a bit.  

In our normal modern life, every meal is a bountiful feast, a rich festive
banquet.  Ponder that early and often.

spike









From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 12 21:21:47 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 13:21:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] inserting backdated posts, was RE:  Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <201012121954.oBCJsX60021092@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <002101cb9a20$15ba4130$412ec390$@att.net>
	<201012121954.oBCJsX60021092@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <000301cb9a42$9614dda0$c23e98e0$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
Subject: Re: [ExI] inserting backdated posts, was RE: Who is safe?

Spike wrote:

>>I agree.  The story itself contains contradictions.  We hear of 
>>classified information that was taken from an unsecured link, but ...I
suspect it 
>>was counterfeit, or was liberally mixed with intentionally counterfeit
posts.

>A tweet led me to a URL with an odd "document", allegedly from the State
Department leaks: <http://www.ding.net/wikileaks/234867.txt>.
>Was this an actual DoS document that some clown classified? Or is it a hoax
page? -- David.

David we've been Rick rolled.  {8^D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickrolling

It did give me an idea.  Wikileaks wants information to be free.  Very well,
we shall consider everything on wikileaks free.  For some of you
coderdemalions it will be child's play to code the following:  download the
entire contents of wikileaks, copy all, paste to  a separate file, randomly
change the post date, append to the original file, sort by date.  Now we
have twice as much information as wikileaks, and we are just getting warmed
up.  Take the resulting file, copy all, paste to a separate file, the code
takes paragraphs or sentences and randomly changes their order within the
post, and randomizes the date.  Append to original file, sort by date.  Now
we are four times the size of wikileaks.  Now copy all, paste to a separate
file, randomly mix paragraphs from randomly chosen posts, change date, sort.
Append to original file, to make 8 times the paltry gigabyte in wikileaks.  

Randomly insert a few Rick Astley videos, so that now one can legitimately
claim to have *over* 8 times more "information" than wikileaks.  Depending
of course on how one defines the term "information."  Is corrupted
information information?

Sell advertisement space on the site to make actual money off of all that
free information.  Everyone wins.

spike








From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 23:03:26 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:03:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Corn, soy, and cattle (was Soy, brain aging,
	and false advertising)
In-Reply-To: <4D05267D.5060502@gnolls.org>
References: <mailman.1.1292155201.802.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4D05267D.5060502@gnolls.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiky9_U6vjqUS0QZYWwG0axAOXwZr7_id_7042-C@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 2:46 PM, J. Stanton <js_exi at gnolls.org> wrote:

> "Domestic ruminants in developed countries are often fed an abundance of
> grain and little fiber. When ruminants are fed fiber-deficient rations,
> physiological mechanisms of homeostasis are disrupted, ruminal pH declines,
> microbial ecology is altered, and the animal becomes more susceptible to
> metabolic disorders and, in some cases, infectious disease. Some disorders
> can be counteracted by feed additives (for example, antibiotics and
> buffers), but these additives can alter the composition of the ruminal
> ecosystem even further."

Like I said, I don't doubt that antibiotics are necessary and used on
the major industrial feedlots. I'm just saying that in my experience,
which I think is typical for smaller producers throughout the
southeast US (and probably elsewhere), grain finishing doesn't
automatically mean antibiotics are required. My neighbor raises a
couple dozen head/year. He buys calves at auction, raises them on
pasture, finishes them on grain feed a month or so, then sells them at
auction. From there they go right to slaughter. They're already
finished, so feedlotting them wouldn't make sense economically. He may
be able to buy grain below cost due to subsidies, but believe me, the
margins in farming are sufficiently tight that they get no more grain
than he thinks is necessary to properly finish them.

> That being said, I'm sure the positive health impact of NOT raising cattle
> in feces up to their ankles is substantial (skip to about 5:30):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69gT9LBCMxg

Extreme overcrowding like that is never healthy.

> So part of the effect of grain-based diets on cattle is direct (digestive
> problems) and part of the effect is indirect (concentration of animals into
> feedlots, which is only made possible by a grain-based diet).

It's the caloric density of grains, which allows cattle to be fattened
rapidly, and the customer's preference for grain-finished beef that
makes feedlotting economical. But feedlots could be feeding hay or
silage if grain weren't an option.

>?Then there is
> the problem that grain-based diets for cattle create and spread
> acid-resistant E.coli (the strains that cause actual sickness and death in
> humans because they can survive the digestive tract).

Yeah, that's an overcrowding problem.

> It's clear that if you want to make cows as fat as possible as quickly as
> possible without regard to their health, you should feed them lots of grain
> and grain products. ?I think there is a lesson here for humans.

I agree. I just happen to think that moderate amounts of grain
products are perfectly OK for most people.

> That being said, I don't blame anyone for feeding grain to their
> cattle...when we subsidize it so heavily to make it so cheap, it's the
> obvious thing to do.

No, that's not true. I already explained, back in the paleo/primal
thread, that subsidies don't make grains cheap. They make them
cheaper, but they're already cheap. Furthermore, cattle aren't fed
grain routinely while they're being raised. It's too expensive and
pasture/hay are cheaper and readily available. Cattle are finished on
grain because Americans like a nice, marbled steak, and you can't do
that with grass.

>?And sustainable grazing is actually a lot of work,
> because you're moving the cattle around daily with small electric fences in
> order to mimic the movement patterns of native grazers (like buffalo), which
> move around continually and let the grass regenerate instead of eating it
> down to the ground where they are before moving on.

It's not that hard. The easiest way is to keep the number of livestock
low enough that they'll do that on their own. If you want to push it,
a little cross fencing and more active pasture maintenance is all it
takes.

>> J., you've got good arguments against vegetable oils, but claiming
>> that calling them that is false advertising isn't one of them. One of
>> the accepted definitions of "vegetable" as an adjective is "derived
>> from plants", and that's how it's used in "vegetable oil"--to
>> distinguish it from oils of animal or mineral origin.
>
> By that standard, fruits and nuts are really just vegetables because they're
> derived from plants. ?That may be technically true, as "vegetable" is not a
> precisely defined term -- but commonly understood usage, including the "food
> pyramid", defines "vegetables" as separate entities from other plant
> products such as fruits, nuts, grains, and starches.

First, you're confusing "vegetable", the noun, with the adjective.
Fruits and nuts aren't vegetables, but they are vegetable--they come
from organisms in the vegetable kingdom, AKA "plants".

> Wikipedia gets it about right: "The noun vegetable usually means an edible
> plant or part of a plant *other than a sweet fruit or seed.* [emphasis mine]
> This usually means the leaf, stem, or root of a plant.

Yes, Wikipedia does get it about right. But you stopped reading too soon:

"As an adjective, the word vegetable is used in scientific and
technical contexts with a different and much broader meaning, namely
of "related to plants" in general, edible or not ? as in vegetable
matter, vegetable kingdom, vegetable origin, etc."

Seriously, nobody thinks vegetable oil comes from carrots and
cucumbers. Corn oil is in the gray area because most people consider
corn a vegetable, but peanut oil, soybean oil, olive oil...everyone
knows where they originate. Probably 95% of the population has no idea
what a "canola" is, but you can't blame the rapeseed industry for
using a different name.

-Dave



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 23:05:51 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 19:05:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] inserting backdated posts, was RE: Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <000301cb9a42$9614dda0$c23e98e0$@att.net>
References: <002101cb9a20$15ba4130$412ec390$@att.net>
	<201012121954.oBCJsX60021092@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<000301cb9a42$9614dda0$c23e98e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=fGdcigg+-bsEu0+mqipM1CN7e5tzPoX0eU070@mail.gmail.com>

>Randomly insert a few Rick Astley videos<

I know you didn't mean it this way, but cultural coding is the way to go, if
you really want to keep something secret. Forget Navaho and game theory and
enigma and secure networks. If I wanted to communicate something to someone,
and it was important that no-one but myself and the person
I'm communicating to understands, I first teach them a new language by
sending them images and symbols on unsecured networks with heavy social
traffic based on shared experience that I know they will eventually decode
but no-one else simply looking in can or would want to.
An exercise in semiotics.

If you were dealing with a scientifically-minded person, you might start by
sending them a .gif of Sagan's pioneer plaque, and keep resending it, until
they got the idea that you were trying to communicate with them in a
completely new way. Once they got the message, perhaps by sending you a
photo of Jack Derrida or an mp3 of a goldeberg variation back, you are in
business. If they don't get it, forget 'em. They're not your man. If they
do, you've established the beginning of secure network because it's
safely fire-walled behind someone's subjective experience and perception.
It's clumsy, slow and needs time to be developed, but it could work, if you
were committed enough. All the junk on the 'net becomes your language, and
the key to decoding it is locked inside your recipient's head in the form of
their own experience, which you can begin to manipulate once you've
established a secure connection.  I've been working on such
a language concept for a new book, and have been having fun with it. I
expect if we had telepathic abilities we'd communicate more in this way than
through cursive symbols anyway. And it has occurred to me that this speed
of light internet communication is a species of technologically-assisted
telepathy. It will become more so when we can relocate these
clumsy pieces of hardware into our evolutionary software. Or vice-versa.

Everyone in a while I imagine that what we are witnessing with the 'net is
not just an explosion of information technology, but rather the decline of
cursive symbolism as the dominant mode of recorded communication for
mankind.

Just every once in a while.

Darren

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 5:21 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
> Subject: Re: [ExI] inserting backdated posts, was RE: Who is safe?
>
> Spike wrote:
>
> >>I agree.  The story itself contains contradictions.  We hear of
> >>classified information that was taken from an unsecured link, but ...I
> suspect it
> >>was counterfeit, or was liberally mixed with intentionally counterfeit
> posts.
>
> >A tweet led me to a URL with an odd "document", allegedly from the State
> Department leaks: <http://www.ding.net/wikileaks/234867.txt>.
> >Was this an actual DoS document that some clown classified? Or is it a
> hoax
> page? -- David.
>
> David we've been Rick rolled.  {8^D
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickrolling
>
> It did give me an idea.  Wikileaks wants information to be free.  Very
> well,
> we shall consider everything on wikileaks free.  For some of you
> coderdemalions it will be child's play to code the following:  download the
> entire contents of wikileaks, copy all, paste to  a separate file, randomly
> change the post date, append to the original file, sort by date.  Now we
> have twice as much information as wikileaks, and we are just getting warmed
> up.  Take the resulting file, copy all, paste to a separate file, the code
> takes paragraphs or sentences and randomly changes their order within the
> post, and randomizes the date.  Append to original file, sort by date.  Now
> we are four times the size of wikileaks.  Now copy all, paste to a separate
> file, randomly mix paragraphs from randomly chosen posts, change date,
> sort.
> Append to original file, to make 8 times the paltry gigabyte in wikileaks.
>
> Randomly insert a few Rick Astley videos, so that now one can legitimately
> claim to have *over* 8 times more "information" than wikileaks.  Depending
> of course on how one defines the term "information."  Is corrupted
> information information?
>
> Sell advertisement space on the site to make actual money off of all that
> free information.  Everyone wins.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Dec 12 23:17:17 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:17:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimdYS5nBQdpCpeJke2b93HPqN4eD_TmmQ8DhAcs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimdYS5nBQdpCpeJke2b93HPqN4eD_TmmQ8DhAcs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTincJwxgrFpTr-i4EsbvN1SYw3xsdKt-SgRcPie=@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't have a security clearance, never have had one. ?I do know a
> number of people who have security clearances, including some who are
> currently under orders not to access Wikileaks. ?Was talking to such a
> person not long ago and mentioned how silly such orders seemed to me.
> The orders have backed off to let people in the government read the
> NYT Wikileaks based stories.

Some of the wikileaks documents are (supposedly) classified. Public
disclosure of a classified document doesn't automatically make it
unclassified. We were warned against accessing wikileaks from work
computers because it could potentially result in classified documents
on a system not cleared for them, which, if you've ever worked in
environments that process classified information, you know is a Big
Deal, requiring a careful and expensive clean-up.

Furthermore, everyone with a clearance knows that being cleared at the
appropriate level is necessary for access for classified information,
but it's not sufficient. You may be cleared for access to Secret
documents, but if your job doesn't require accessing diplomatic
cables, you have no business reading them, and could certainly lose
your clearance for doing so. Not to mention that if you need access to
diplomatic cables, you need to do it through approved channels on
equipment approved to handle classified information--none of which
involves wikileaks.

-Dave



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Dec 13 12:29:07 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:29:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Re :rocket fuel was Re: SpaceX launch
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinSjS_A--Neq-HM6AD0p9p_a0tmxGPUrMBcr0f+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinSjS_A--Neq-HM6AD0p9p_a0tmxGPUrMBcr0f+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101213122907.GZ9434@leitl.org>

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:31:21AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:

> > In terms of economy you're likely to employ a hybrid design.
> > A maglev launch stage (e.g. up Mount Chimborazo) instead of a first
> > chemical stage, second stage air-breathing scramjet/rocket hybrid
> > or simple chemical rocket, or laser driven ablation (not sure this
> > will ever work, though current prototypes are sure nifty).
> 
> If you have never looked at the power requirement for maglev, you should.

Most plans assume a ~100 t vehicle, release slightly below Mach 1 at
about 6 km, so it would be around 3 MWh, or 10 GJ. This is equal to about 
a ton of diesel, or about a couple of kilotons worth of charged modern 
supercaps, which can be easily charged from thin-film PV panels adjacent 
to the track.
 
> > Also, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with chemical rockets,
> > as long as your transport rate is limited, e.g. for a lunar bootstrap
> > using in-situ resources. Suited monkeys are quite pointless, so you'll
> > proceed to teleoperated robots shortly, and whether you teleoperate
> > them from a pressurized can nearby or from rotating ground centers (with
> > the advantage of 24/7 operation) only adds about 2 seconds of latency.
> 
> Dr. Peter Schubert is the only one I know of who tried to put numbers
> on a lunar bootstrap.  He got $2 T and 20 years.

The bootstrap costs are a factor of technology, particularly telecommunication,
teleoperation, automation, and miniaturization. It would be difficult
to put an exact cost, particularly as there will be improvisation
and new technologies developed over the duration.
 
> Ten times the exhaust velocity takes 100 times as much energy.  We are
> already at $60 B for the lasers, 100 times as much is $6 T.  It would
> take 1.2 TW to power the lasers.  That's more than the installed
> electric power for the US.

The first stage of a Saturn V was average 190 GW, I presume the 
requirements for a 100 ton craft are an order of magnitude lower.
Current solid state lasers achieve 100 kW output, at about 20% 
efficiency, but a 1 MW laser is being assembled for 2013.
Assuming you're leaving maglev at about Mach 1 laser boosting
might help you to get to scramjet ignition speed, so you can go to
high elevations and high Mach numbers at least partly air-breathing
(liquid hydrogen or liquid methane), switching to LOX as oxidizer
when going to LEO.

But you could just launch a conventional rocket stage from maglev.
Especially, if you can go up to Mach 2-3 with maglev alone -- that
might become a bit difficult, though.
 
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 13 15:55:29 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 07:55:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>However, as this person pointed out, the order not to read Wikileaks
>materials is rational.  We have the example of PFC Manning who read
>them and was turned against the US by what he read in those cables,
>not to mention the gunship video.
>

What?

You're saying that it makes sense for someone who has a certain loyalty to some organisation to refrain from reading certain material, because it contains evidence that might destroy or at least strain, that loyalty?

I don't call that 'rational' at all!  It's more like being told to bury your head in the sand, and asking "how high?" (my hobby: mixing metaphors to breaking point).

If nothing else, it's a bloody good reason to read the stuff!

OK, maybe making the order is rational.  Marginally.  Obeying it is not, though, and neither is expecting anyone to obey it.

To acquiesce is pretty much admitting that you don't care if you support a corrupt system, and don't even want to know.  It's not rational, and imo, it's immoral.

This seems to have a pretty close parallel with mediaeval parishioners being kept from reading the bible, by priests who realise how much it will 'test their faith'.

Ben Zaiboc


      



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 13 16:22:19 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:22:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
Message-ID: <AANLkTimQ0o=KhahKPm0HgXHOwhognsSVKBZsco1+Nz-B@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

My point was that *reading* the Wikileaks documents may (for some
people) badly damage their faith in the goodness of the current US
government.

Openness and transparency are not a good idea when you are trying to
look good and are not.

Keith



> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't have a security clearance, never have had one. ?I do know a
>> number of people who have security clearances, including some who are
>> currently under orders not to access Wikileaks. ?Was talking to such a
>> person not long ago and mentioned how silly such orders seemed to me.
>> The orders have backed off to let people in the government read the
>> NYT Wikileaks based stories.
>
> Some of the wikileaks documents are (supposedly) classified. Public
> disclosure of a classified document doesn't automatically make it
> unclassified. We were warned against accessing wikileaks from work
> computers because it could potentially result in classified documents
> on a system not cleared for them, which, if you've ever worked in
> environments that process classified information, you know is a Big
> Deal, requiring a careful and expensive clean-up.
>
> Furthermore, everyone with a clearance knows that being cleared at the
> appropriate level is necessary for access for classified information,
> but it's not sufficient. You may be cleared for access to Secret
> documents, but if your job doesn't require accessing diplomatic
> cables, you have no business reading them, and could certainly lose
> your clearance for doing so. Not to mention that if you need access to
> diplomatic cables, you need to do it through approved channels on
> equipment approved to handle classified information--none of which
> involves wikileaks.
>
> -Dave


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 13 17:43:10 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:43:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
Subject: Re: [ExI] Who is safe?

Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

>...We have the example of PFC Manning who read 
>them and was turned against the US by what he read in those cables, not 
>to mention the gunship video...


Hmmm, that is one way to interpret it, but I would assume the PFC was
against the US before he read the cables.  With respect to the sheer volume
of the text, I can easily imagine that Private Manning actually read little
or none of it.  Even then, it is difficult to see how reading a few cables
would turn anyone's attitude.  From what I have seen, there is nothing
particularly scandalous in there.

I still haven't seen the claim that the leaked file was counterfeit, or that
it contains counterfeit documents, intentionally placed.  It would be easy
to do and an obvious security measure.  They could generate an enormous
phony classified archive, that would be accessed automatically by anyone
with a low level clearance.  A private would have only a low level
clearance.  They could have trackers in that document to work back and
figure out who leaked.

Doing that would also be a great way for the security folks to sting
Wikileaks: intentionally let out a phony document file, let them take the
bait, then set the hook.  Or another way is to let out a counterfeit archive
and never confess.  Allow the news people hash over the stuff for years, and
puzzle over why nothing in there seems to be verifiable.

spike










From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Dec 13 19:14:09 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:14:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201012131914.oBDJE6Jc015182@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Hmmm, that is one way to interpret it, but I would assume the PFC was
>against the US before he read the cables.  With respect to the sheer volume
>of the text, I can easily imagine that Private Manning actually read little
>or none of it.

Judging from his picture, he doesn't look like he *can* read anything
beyond Archie Comics. There's something about his expression
that suggests you could play racquetball inside his skull.

Seriously. When he gets to trial, I wouldn't be surprised if the defense
argued diminished capacity.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 13 20:31:19 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:31:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <201012131914.oBDJE6Jc015182@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
	<201012131914.oBDJE6Jc015182@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <001101cb9b04$b2d885a0$188990e0$@att.net>

> On Behalf Of David Lubkin
Subject: Re: [ExI] Who is safe?

Spike wrote:

>>Hmmm, ...With respect to the sheer 
>>volume of the text, I can easily imagine that Private Manning actually 
>>read little or none of it.

>Judging from his picture, he doesn't look like he *can* read anything
beyond Archie Comics. There's something about his expression that suggests
you could play racquetball inside his skull...Seriously. When he gets to
trial, I wouldn't be surprised if the defense argued diminished
capacity...-- David.

Ja, and this is one of the apparent contradictions I see in the story.  They
don't give clearances to PFCs, or rather not much clearance.  They go on and
on about classified info, but then imply it was on an open channel.  That is
a contradiction in itself.  

I think the news agencies are wary as all get out.  They really aren't
saying much.  They watched what happened to the credibility of CBS in
October and November of 2004.  Plenty of them suspect the Lucy Ramirez story
is actually true, but that Lt Cmdr Bill Burkett knew and was in on it the
whole time, and that it was all a setup, a sting aimed at Dan Rather,
knowing that he was going to run the
Niger-uranium-mine-based-on-counterfeit-documents story.  So they arranged
for CBS to receive counterfeit documents.  Then CBS couldn't run the
counterfeit documents story (they never did) since they themselves were
fooled by counterfeit documents.

I am not one to buy conspiracy theories, but that one is just plausible
enough to estimate ~40% chance that it is true, that it was all a setup by
Karl Rove or somebody, and it worked better than even he could have
imagined: it ruined Dan Rather, caused him to retire in disgrace, and set
CBS at the National Enquirer level of credibility.  News people aren't
stupid.  Or I should say, they aren't as stupid as they were in October
2004, Rather.  They smell a set-up, and so do I.  Notice that Julian Assange
never actually claims these leaked documents are all genuine.  How would he
know?

spike










From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Dec 13 22:27:50 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:27:50 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <201012131914.oBDJE6Jc015182@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
	<201012131914.oBDJE6Jc015182@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=baPFVrYgqehKA2719XHDH89bytm9jEpa=0j_U@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 6:14 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Spike wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that is one way to interpret it, but I would assume the PFC was
>> against the US before he read the cables. ?With respect to the sheer
>> volume
>> of the text, I can easily imagine that Private Manning actually read
>> little
>> or none of it.
>
> Judging from his picture, he doesn't look like he *can* read anything
> beyond Archie Comics. There's something about his expression
> that suggests you could play racquetball inside his skull.
>
> Seriously. When he gets to trial, I wouldn't be surprised if the defense
> argued diminished capacity.

He was an "intelligence analyst". What does a PFC who is an
intelligence analyst do?


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 13 23:29:32 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:29:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=baPFVrYgqehKA2719XHDH89bytm9jEpa=0j_U@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>	<201012131914.oBDJE6Jc015182@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTi=baPFVrYgqehKA2719XHDH89bytm9jEpa=0j_U@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301cb9b1d$98fdae30$caf90a90$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou
Subject: Re: [ExI] Who is safe?

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 6:14 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
...
>
>> Seriously. When he gets to trial, I wouldn't be surprised if the 
>> defense argued diminished capacity.

>He was an "intelligence analyst". What does a PFC who is an intelligence analyst do?--Stathis Papaioannou

This is misinformation or disinformation.  Or perhaps *very* liberal use of the term.  Every time I see something like this, the whole thing looks more suspiciously like a setup.

On a related note, regarding a previous post of mine referencing Karl Rove, I looked up in his book what he said about Rathergate.  I noted something this time that I missed on the first reading: Rove does not explicitly deny that he did it.  He set himself up for a later self-congratulatory confession.  See what you think.  On page 390 of Rove's Courage and Consequence, he was talking about the swiftboaters attack on John Kerry.  He says "I had no role in any of it, though the Swifties did a damned good job."

OK now, a few paragraphs later, he is talking about the 60 Minutes story.  Courage and Consequence, page 392, Rove comments:

"...Maureen Dowd, the New York Times columnist, repeated democratic 'speculation about whether Karl Rove, the master of dirty tricks and surrogate sleaze, could have set up CBS in a diabolical pre-emptive strike to undermine damaging revelations' about Bush's National Guard service.  Diabolical indeed.  For this scheme to work, it required me to convince a Bush-hating source to provide falsified memos to Dan Rather through his Bush-hating producer, and then get Rather to take the bait and publish the story, despite how obviously fake the memos were.  My critics were again investing me with superhuman powers."

How do you guys read that?  Note that he flatly denied involvement in the swiftboaters, but slyly indeeds this other caper, with an ambiguous "diabolical indeed."  Indeeding is not specifically denying.  Even if he did it, every word in the quoted paragraph is technically true, and if so, it is something he is proud of, but cannot confess just yet.  I want to live long enough to see if he ever does either confess or specifically deny it.

spike










From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 14 01:23:21 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 21:23:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <003301cb9b1d$98fdae30$caf90a90$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
	<201012131914.oBDJE6Jc015182@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTi=baPFVrYgqehKA2719XHDH89bytm9jEpa=0j_U@mail.gmail.com>
	<003301cb9b1d$98fdae30$caf90a90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikkpLoHusWMFUgV-k7Y8aqqXtfojX=Ee44boJ07@mail.gmail.com>

>Even if he did it, every word in the quoted paragraph is technically true,
and if so, it is something he is proud of, but cannot confess just yet<

That was the least of his achievements. I used to have an obsession with
Rove, when he was Bush's Goebbels and I wasted my time more with politics.
 How could one not, with a man whose entry into politics was as an aide to
Nixon's propaganda chief Segretti? Rove's political resume reads like a rap
sheet: push voting, identity theft, slander, document falsification,
disinformation campaigns. The list is impossibly long. If this guy had been
selling something besides republicans, he would have been arrested and
charged by the FBI with fraud, insider trading and a dozen
other offenses long ago.

He's a cynical, careless, ethically-challenged human being (I'm trying to be
kind here) but less driven by ideology than say, David Frum, who wrote the
'axis of evil' speech and actually stopped supporting the Canadian
New Democratic Party because he read The Gulag Archipelago  when he was 22
and somehow decided that Stalin was ideologically representative of all
leftists. No sense of history. No sense at all, apparently.

North American politics has had many shameful eras. But that has to have
been one of the worst. Gore Vidal was so incensed he stopped writing novels
and took to churning out political pamphlets on the subject of Rove, Bush
and friends for awhile instead.

Darren



On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 7:29 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ... On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Who is safe?
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 6:14 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
> wrote:
> ...
> >
> >> Seriously. When he gets to trial, I wouldn't be surprised if the
> >> defense argued diminished capacity.
>
> >He was an "intelligence analyst". What does a PFC who is an intelligence
> analyst do?--Stathis Papaioannou
>
> This is misinformation or disinformation.  Or perhaps *very* liberal use of
> the term.  Every time I see something like this, the whole thing looks more
> suspiciously like a setup.
>
> On a related note, regarding a previous post of mine referencing Karl Rove,
> I looked up in his book what he said about Rathergate.  I noted something
> this time that I missed on the first reading: Rove does not explicitly deny
> that he did it.  He set himself up for a later self-congratulatory
> confession.  See what you think.  On page 390 of Rove's Courage and
> Consequence, he was talking about the swiftboaters attack on John Kerry.  He
> says "I had no role in any of it, though the Swifties did a damned good
> job."
>
> OK now, a few paragraphs later, he is talking about the 60 Minutes story.
>  Courage and Consequence, page 392, Rove comments:
>
> "...Maureen Dowd, the New York Times columnist, repeated democratic
> 'speculation about whether Karl Rove, the master of dirty tricks and
> surrogate sleaze, could have set up CBS in a diabolical pre-emptive strike
> to undermine damaging revelations' about Bush's National Guard service.
>  Diabolical indeed.  For this scheme to work, it required me to convince a
> Bush-hating source to provide falsified memos to Dan Rather through his
> Bush-hating producer, and then get Rather to take the bait and publish the
> story, despite how obviously fake the memos were.  My critics were again
> investing me with superhuman powers."
>
> How do you guys read that?  Note that he flatly denied involvement in the
> swiftboaters, but slyly indeeds this other caper, with an ambiguous
> "diabolical indeed."  Indeeding is not specifically denying.  Even if he did
> it, every word in the quoted paragraph is technically true, and if so, it is
> something he is proud of, but cannot confess just yet.  I want to live long
> enough to see if he ever does either confess or specifically deny it.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 14 05:05:45 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 21:05:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
Message-ID: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Alan Grimes
...
--
DO NOT USE OBAMACARE.
DO NOT BUY OBAMACARE.
Powers are not rights.


Alan, I like your tagline.  As Judge Hudson said today, health care reform
is a laudable goal, but it must be done legally.  The legislative process
must operate within constitutional bounds.  The Virginia judge issued the
opinion today that forcing people to buy insurance is outside of those
bounds.  Government good intentions are insufficient to offset the absence
of enumerated powers.

I have nothing against federal government involvement in medical care.  But
they have not the authority to make us buy in.

Check out the excellent essay from the Cato Institute:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/12/13/shapiro.court.mandate.health/index.htm
l?hpt=T2

spike











From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 14 05:36:33 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:36:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect (was:  CQT Researcher)
In-Reply-To: <4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 4, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> I had this halfassed idea the other day: a Deutschean shadow-universes intuition that the Quantum Zeno effect might derive from superposed activities in adjacent, only slightly divergent M-W realities

Suppose there were a radioactive atom with a half life of 60 minutes, in Many Worlds one way of looking at it, that's not really correct mathematically but can help getting an intuitive feel of it, is that if you look at it after 60 minutes the universe will have split into 2 with the atom decaying in one and not in the other. If you look after 30 minutes there is a 25% chance it will decay so the universe will have split into 4 with 3 having no decay and one with decay, if you look after another 30 minutes each of those 3 will have split yet again with 3 having no decay and one with decay. If you looked after just a nanosecond one universe will see decay and many billions will not, you can see that the number of Damiens (who splits just like everything else) who see no decay of the atom vastly outnumbers the Damiens that do see decay, and more often you check the larger the outnumbering. There will never be a 0% chance you will see a decay but you can approach it asymptotically if you keep checking on the atom at smaller and smaller time intervals, and this is just what we observe in the Quantum Zeno effect.

Possible objection to the above:

I thought the crown jewel of Many Worlds was that it got rid of the unique status of the observer, doesn't this bring back the mysterious nature of measurement just like in Copenhagen?

Possible retort: 

It's true that the universe splits, and in one a measurement has been made and in the other it has not, but the split was made because there was a change in the universe and a measurement is no different from any other change, and the observer is no different from anything else except that it just happens to be the assembly of atoms that generated the report we are reading in this thought experiment. 

Another objection to the above:

But what does it even mean to say that the universe splits into 4 where 3 were identical and one that was different, if the 3 were identical wouldn't that just be one universe? And when dealing with non-denumerable infinite sets can you really obtain probabilities from counting?

Embarrassing admission:

No you can not and Everett specifically warns us from doing so. He formally derived the same results in a way that was mathematically precise (at every branching point the probabilities always added up to exactly 100% just as it should) but was much less intuitive. So what I said is not true, but there still may be an element of truthiness to it. 

> where intentionally directed activities reinforce or prohibit a certain outcome, unlike ordinary stochastic radioactivity, say, where the "shadow overlaps" in/from nearby worlds are arbitrary.

I don't know what you mean by intentionally. Arbitrary or stochastic stuff is just an effect without a cause, and everything including intentionality happens because of cause and effect or it does not; there are simply no other possibilities.

  John K Clark 


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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 14 16:16:24 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 10:16:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] reverse aging
In-Reply-To: <440393.59678.qm@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <440393.59678.qm@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D079858.20605@satx.rr.com>

On 12/5/2010 10:49 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> http://www.sens.org/files/pdf/WILT.pdf
>
> My objections to it follow:

<snip>

Aubrey replies:

Hello everyone, and my apologies for the slow reply. You're only getting 
it now because nice KLM have allowed me to recharge my laptop in 
business class!

 >> 1. First what he was suggesting was similar to purposefully giving 
people the equivalent of
 >> Dyskeratosis Congenita, a genetic birth defect where people are born 
without normal
 >> telomerase function.

Correct. Actually rather worse than that, because DKC sufferers still 
have some residual telomere elongation capacity.

 >> The problem is that these people are actually *more* prone to cancer
 >> and start getting them around 10 yo. You can find a complete medical 
description of
 >> Dyskeratosis here on pubmed for free: 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20301779

That's true - but, the point is thay even in DKC sufferers, tumours 
still maintain their telomeres. Maybe they do it with ALT, maybe by 
upregulating the residual telomerase - but they still do it. It's no 
surprise that such people get cancers early, because we know that 
telomere shortening causes "crisis" and hence high genomic instability. 
What matters is what happens next: is a telomere elongation mechanism 
initiated, or do the cells divide into oblivion? With the genes for 
telomerase and ALT deleted, only the latter could happen.

 >> 2. The second reason is that once a cell violates its genetic 
programming and goes cancerous,
 >> all the rules go out the window. If telomerase is available, it will 
use it to lengthen its telomeres.
 >> If telomerase is not available it will start using alternative 
methods to lengthen its telomeres like
 >> using the homologous-recombination machinery normally reserved for 
DNA repair and meiosis
 >> of germline cells.
 >>
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892175/
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649016/?tool=pubmed

Correct.

 >> And if that doesn't work, cancer cells have no qualms against just 
sticking chromosomes together end
 >> to end with non-homologous end joining. Cancer cells will duplicate 
genes or entire chromosomes (polyploidy),
 >> lose genes or entire chromosomes, and mix bits and pieces of 
different chromosomes together if need be.
 >>
 >> http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v21/n45/pdf/1205566a.pdf

Correct too - but once large chunks of the genome are present in zero 
copies, the cell dies, however creative it is. Sticking chromosomes 
together is fatal for the cel unless the chromosome is ripped apart 
again (at a different place), and that's exactly how aneuploidy arises.

 >> So profound is a cancer cell's ability to mutate at fast speed that 
it can form structures known as ring chromosomes
 >> that recapitulate the ancestral bacterium's circular 
telomere-independent chromosome.
 >> http://atlasgeneticsoncology.org/Deep/RingChromosID20030.html

That's true too, but the only species in which such a thing has been 
seen as a way to escape telomere shortening is the yeast 
Schizosaccharomyces pombe, which has only three chromosomes. The more 
chromosomes you have, the more unlikely it is that you will join one end 
of a chromosome to the other end of the same chromosome rather than to a 
different chromosome.

 >> In short, cancer cells have all the tools of evolution at their 
disposal at speeds normally associated single-celled organisms.

Yes again - but that's not fast enough to outrun the divide-to-death 
problem, unless you have a latent telomerase gene to turn on.

 >> 3. The next problem is that de Grey's strategy underestimates the 
importance of the immune system in cancer prevention.
 >> This process is called immunosurveillance and mice and people with 
defective immune systems are notoriously prone
 >> to cancer.  The white blood cells that normally protect people from 
cancer *need* telomerase to function properly
 >> because the mechanism by which they operate depends on the mass 
replication of the white blood cell lineages that
 >> can recognize and kill tumor cells.
 >>
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857231/
 >>
 >> Of course this mechanism of amplification of the efficacious clones 
is used to combat mundane infections as well.
 >> So not only would telomerase-deficiency make one prone to cancer, it 
would make one susceptible to death from
 >> normally benign viral, bacterial, and fungal infections.

Again correct (except for the part where you say I underestimate this!). 
In fact, any cancer that gets big enough to bump up against telomere 
shortening in the first place has already jumped through loads of hoops 
in evading the immune system when it was smaller. So yes indeed, 
telomerase deletion can affect the immune system's ability to knock off 
nascent cancers, and also regular infections. But... we can deal with 
that problem in the same way that I've proposed for rapidly-renewing 
cell types in general. It may turn out to be enough just to reseed the 
bone marrow with haematopoietic stem cells that initially have nice long 
telomeres (but no telomerase genes). And if not, we can just do the same 
trick of extract/lengthen/reintroduce with memory T and B cells 
themselves: we only need to reach a rather small proportion of such 
cells in order to get the desired result.

 >> 4. De Grey's solution to this problem is "reseeding" whereby 
engineered stem cells are periodically given to people to replace high 
turnover tissues such as the blood cells, skin, and gut epithelium. This 
work-around however brings up the next problem: The relationship between 
cancer and stem cells is poorly understood and these reseeded stem cells 
could very well *become*  cancer.
 >>
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20688584
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19684619

Not if they have no telomerase or ALT...

 >> And if the stem cells are treated to lack telomerase, like the rest 
of the cells of the body in WILT, they no longer qualify as stem cells 
since the capacity for self-renewal is one of the defining 
characteristics for stem cells.

So what? That's just a name.

 >> So these telomerase deficient stem cells would be the medical 
equivalent of GM food crops that can't make seeds, requiring one to be 
beholden to whatever biotech company happens to be manufacturing your 
crippled stem cells for you.

Yes, this has been noted. But if the only alternative is death from 
cancer....

 >> If we are talking about immune system stem cells, then catching a 
simple cold could deplete ones entire reservoir of non-self-renewing 
hematopietic stem cells.

Huh? I know of no evidence that HSCs divide faster when there is an 
infection to be tackled. In fact, I think the only cells that divide 
faster are the cognate naive T cells.

 >> 5. Aside from the theoretical problems with the WILT strategy, the 
technical challenges would be horrendous. With the current state of the 
art, gene knockouts are a messy and rather hit or miss affair. They 
involve trying the targeted gene deletion on a great many embryos, then 
screening for that one precious embryo or cell line in which it worked. 
While this is feasible with mice, the bioethicists would have a 
conniption if you tried that with human embryos. But what use is a gene 
knockout of an embryo going to be to an already full grown population of 
possible cancer victims? While gene knockouts are done routinely on 
human cells in a petri dish, I am not aware of any existing technique 
that would allow one to delete a gene from all 10^14 [~70 trillion?] 
cells of an adult human in vivo:

This is indeed challenging, and I never conceal that WILT is the hardest 
part of SENS. However, in the case of the rapidly renewing tissues that 
are the source of many cancers, the gene targeting can be done ex vivo 
and appropriate selection applied; we are getting pretty good at 
amplifying rare stem cells without losing their stemness.

The question is: what else is going to really really work against 
cancer? No one would be happier than me if we could indeed avoid the 
need for WILT. But I simply claim that it is irresponsible to rely on 
something easier working.

Cheers, Aubrey


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 14 17:41:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:41:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] forward from aubrey de grey: reverse aging
Message-ID: <003f01cb9bb6$35fd58a0$a1f809e0$@att.net>


The ExI-chat server seems to be slow.  This was already forwarded by another, but nothing, so as an experiment I am forwarding the same message.  s


Forward from Aubrey de Grey

=============

Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse aging


On 12/5/2010 10:49 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

 > http://www.sens.org/files/pdf/WILT.pdf
 >
 > My objections to it follow:

<snip>

Aubrey replies:

Hello everyone, and my apologies for the slow reply. You're only getting it now because nice KLM have allowed me to recharge my laptop in business class!

 >> 1. First what he was suggesting was similar to purposefully giving people the equivalent of  >> Dyskeratosis Congenita, a genetic birth defect where people are born without normal  >> telomerase function.

Correct. Actually rather worse than that, because DKC sufferers still have some residual telomere elongation capacity.

 >> The problem is that these people are actually *more* prone to cancer  >> and start getting them around 10 yo. You can find a complete medical description of  >> Dyskeratosis here on pubmed for free: 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20301779

That's true - but, the point is thay even in DKC sufferers, tumours still maintain their telomeres. Maybe they do it with ALT, maybe by upregulating the residual telomerase - but they still do it. It's no surprise that such people get cancers early, because we know that telomere shortening causes "crisis" and hence high genomic instability. 
What matters is what happens next: is a telomere elongation mechanism initiated, or do the cells divide into oblivion? With the genes for telomerase and ALT deleted, only the latter could happen.

 >> 2. The second reason is that once a cell violates its genetic programming and goes cancerous,  >> all the rules go out the window. If telomerase is available, it will use it to lengthen its telomeres.
 >> If telomerase is not available it will start using alternative methods to lengthen its telomeres like  >> using the homologous-recombination machinery normally reserved for DNA repair and meiosis  >> of germline cells.
 >>
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892175/
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649016/?tool=pubmed

Correct.

 >> And if that doesn't work, cancer cells have no qualms against just sticking chromosomes together end  >> to end with non-homologous end joining. Cancer cells will duplicate genes or entire chromosomes (polyploidy),  >> lose genes or entire chromosomes, and mix bits and pieces of different chromosomes together if need be.
 >>
 >> http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v21/n45/pdf/1205566a.pdf

Correct too - but once large chunks of the genome are present in zero copies, the cell dies, however creative it is. Sticking chromosomes together is fatal for the cel unless the chromosome is ripped apart again (at a different place), and that's exactly how aneuploidy arises.

 >> So profound is a cancer cell's ability to mutate at fast speed that it can form structures known as ring chromosomes  >> that recapitulate the ancestral bacterium's circular telomere-independent chromosome.
 >> http://atlasgeneticsoncology.org/Deep/RingChromosID20030.html

That's true too, but the only species in which such a thing has been seen as a way to escape telomere shortening is the yeast Schizosaccharomyces pombe, which has only three chromosomes. The more chromosomes you have, the more unlikely it is that you will join one end of a chromosome to the other end of the same chromosome rather than to a different chromosome.

 >> In short, cancer cells have all the tools of evolution at their disposal at speeds normally associated single-celled organisms.

Yes again - but that's not fast enough to outrun the divide-to-death problem, unless you have a latent telomerase gene to turn on.

 >> 3. The next problem is that de Grey's strategy underestimates the importance of the immune system in cancer prevention.
 >> This process is called immunosurveillance and mice and people with defective immune systems are notoriously prone  >> to cancer.  The white blood cells that normally protect people from cancer *need* telomerase to function properly  >> because the mechanism by which they operate depends on the mass replication of the white blood cell lineages that  >> can recognize and kill tumor cells.
 >>
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857231/
 >>
 >> Of course this mechanism of amplification of the efficacious clones is used to combat mundane infections as well.
 >> So not only would telomerase-deficiency make one prone to cancer, it would make one susceptible to death from  >> normally benign viral, bacterial, and fungal infections.

Again correct (except for the part where you say I underestimate this!). 
In fact, any cancer that gets big enough to bump up against telomere shortening in the first place has already jumped through loads of hoops in evading the immune system when it was smaller. So yes indeed, telomerase deletion can affect the immune system's ability to knock off nascent cancers, and also regular infections. But... we can deal with that problem in the same way that I've proposed for rapidly-renewing cell types in general. It may turn out to be enough just to reseed the bone marrow with haematopoietic stem cells that initially have nice long telomeres (but no telomerase genes). And if not, we can just do the same trick of extract/lengthen/reintroduce with memory T and B cells
themselves: we only need to reach a rather small proportion of such cells in order to get the desired result.

 >> 4. De Grey's solution to this problem is "reseeding" whereby engineered stem cells are periodically given to people to replace high turnover tissues such as the blood cells, skin, and gut epithelium. This work-around however brings up the next problem: The relationship between cancer and stem cells is poorly understood and these reseeded stem cells could very well *become*  cancer.
 >>
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20688584
 >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19684619

Not if they have no telomerase or ALT...

 >> And if the stem cells are treated to lack telomerase, like the rest of the cells of the body in WILT, they no longer qualify as stem cells since the capacity for self-renewal is one of the defining characteristics for stem cells.

So what? That's just a name.

 >> So these telomerase deficient stem cells would be the medical equivalent of GM food crops that can't make seeds, requiring one to be beholden to whatever biotech company happens to be manufacturing your crippled stem cells for you.

Yes, this has been noted. But if the only alternative is death from cancer....

 >> If we are talking about immune system stem cells, then catching a simple cold could deplete ones entire reservoir of non-self-renewing hematopietic stem cells.

Huh? I know of no evidence that HSCs divide faster when there is an infection to be tackled. In fact, I think the only cells that divide faster are the cognate naive T cells.

 >> 5. Aside from the theoretical problems with the WILT strategy, the technical challenges would be horrendous. With the current state of the art, gene knockouts are a messy and rather hit or miss affair. They involve trying the targeted gene deletion on a great many embryos, then screening for that one precious embryo or cell line in which it worked. 
While this is feasible with mice, the bioethicists would have a conniption if you tried that with human embryos. But what use is a gene knockout of an embryo going to be to an already full grown population of possible cancer victims? While gene knockouts are done routinely on human cells in a petri dish, I am not aware of any existing technique that would allow one to delete a gene from all 10^14 [~70 trillion?] cells of an adult human in vivo:

This is indeed challenging, and I never conceal that WILT is the hardest part of SENS. However, in the case of the rapidly renewing tissues that are the source of many cancers, the gene targeting can be done ex vivo and appropriate selection applied; we are getting pretty good at amplifying rare stem cells without losing their stemness.

The question is: what else is going to really really work against cancer? No one would be happier than me if we could indeed avoid the need for WILT. But I simply claim that it is irresponsible to rely on something easier working.

Cheers, Aubrey





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 14 18:02:11 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:02:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
	<17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>

On 12/13/2010 11:36 PM, John Clark wrote:

> It's true that the universe splits, and in one a measurement has been
> made and in the other it has not, but the split was made because there
> was a change in the universe and a measurement is no different from any
> other change, and the observer is no different from anything else except
> that it just happens to be the assembly of atoms that generated the
> report we are reading in this thought experiment.

Sidebar:

I always understood that quantum measurement hangs upon some specific 
and crucial quantum event; thus, choices made by large ensembles of 
atoms don't count. That is, if you conducted the S's cat experiment 
using a macroscopic randomizer like a series of spinning coins, it 
wouldn't prove a thing. Only if the poison/don't poison branching is 
occasioned by a radioactive decay does it even make any sense that the 
cat is both alive and dead inside the sealed box. If this is correct, 
the M-W universe doesn't split if you walk left instead of right, unless 
that decision is somehow triggered by an indeterminate or stochastic 
quantum-scale event in your nervous system (the sort of thing Nobelist 
Eccles got all excited about, because he thought that might be a place 
where a non-physical entity or soul might couple to the machinery).

Damien Broderick


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 14 18:38:16 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:38:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
	<17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>
	<4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <D42F6491-F915-4F4A-880B-425988CC1E83@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 14, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> if you conducted the S's cat experiment using a macroscopic randomizer like a series of spinning coins, it wouldn't prove a thing.

I think that's true provided you make the pretty reasonable assumption that the outcome of a spinning coin is a deterministic event.

> If this is correct, the M-W universe doesn't split if you walk left instead of right, unless that decision is somehow triggered by an indeterminate or stochastic quantum-scale event in your nervous system

If that human decision is deterministic (and sometimes it probably isn't) then you always walk left and there is no universe where you go right, so obviously there is no split.

> the sort of thing Nobelist Eccles got all excited about, because he thought that might be a place where a non-physical entity or soul might couple to the machinery.

I suppose so, but I don't understand why he got all excited, randomness is not what people usually mean by the soul; as for free will, people don't mean anything by it, it's just a noise made by the mouth.

 John K Clark





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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 14 20:41:37 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:41:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <D42F6491-F915-4F4A-880B-425988CC1E83@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>	<17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>	<4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>
	<D42F6491-F915-4F4A-880B-425988CC1E83@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4D07D681.6020005@satx.rr.com>

On 12/14/2010 12:38 PM, John Clark wrote:
>
>> the sort of thing Nobelist Eccles got all excited about, because he
>> thought that might be a place where a non-physical entity or soul
>> might couple to the machinery.
>
> I suppose so, but I don't understand why he got all excited, randomness
> is not what people usually mean by the soul; as for free will, people
> don't mean anything by it, it's just a noise made by the mouth.

I haven't read Popper&Eccles for a while so I don't recall the exact 
argument, but I assume he thought that if a metastable state was somehow 
so delicately poised that it could flip any allowable way, a shove by a 
magical soul could tip it in the desired deterministic direction. In 
other words, it would be a hidden variable. Doesn't make any sense to 
me, either. But maybe Eccles-type souls live in the seventh rolled up 
dimension and can do shit like that.

Damien Broderick



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Dec 14 22:31:27 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 15:31:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NYTimes.com: Decoding the Human Brain, With Help From a Fly
In-Reply-To: <4d07b9b7.818c2a0a.1289.6b48SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
References: <4d07b9b7.818c2a0a.1289.6b48SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimkZWa2kKbY4ApiaRzE5Gf6U4oHuRMzhMYtNgNj@mail.gmail.com>

Decoding the Human Brain, With Help From a Fly
*
*Taiwanese researchers have managed to bar code some 16,000 of the 100,000
neurons in a fruit fly?s brain and to reconstruct the brain?s wiring map.

In terms similar to those that define computers, the team describes the
general architecture of the fly?s brain as composed of 41 local processing
units, 58 tracts that link the units to other parts of the brain, and six
hubs.

Biologists see this atlas of the fly brain as a first step toward
understanding the human brain. Six of the chemicals that transmit messages
between neurons are the same in both species. And the general structure ?
two hemispheres with copious cross-links ? is also similar.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This certainly has implications for doing the same with human brains.

Keith
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From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Wed Dec 15 00:46:09 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 16:46:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20101215004609.GA16940@ofb.net>

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 09:43:10AM -0800, spike wrote:

> or none of it.  Even then, it is difficult to see how reading a few cables
> would turn anyone's attitude.  From what I have seen, there is nothing
> particularly scandalous in there.

http://mindstalk.livejournal.com/264371.html

Coverups of mass killings; US contractors supporting pedophilia;
complacency to Ugandan war crimes; Hillary illegally ordering our
diplomats to spy on allies; our formal policy of not investigating Iraqi
human rights abuses; interference in the Spanish judiciary; US/Swedish
cooperation kept secret from the Swedish people

But hey, nothing scandalous.  Just gossip, right?

-xx- Damien X-) 


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 02:30:08 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:30:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] "moral outrage: a canadian speciality"
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUad+HRed=V5jHEX3R9-A5nE80mCeNnAZeHoJz@mail.gmail.com>

Just delved into some diplomatic cables for a little light evening reading
and to enjoy some "paroxysms of moral outrage, a Canadian specialty"  as one
U.S. diplomat put it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/161421


Very true. We are as a nation exceptionally good at taking umbrage. Though
to be fair, because of our geographical location and political alliances, we
get lots of practice.  :)


Darren


-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 02:16:07 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:16:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <D42F6491-F915-4F4A-880B-425988CC1E83@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
	<17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>
	<4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>
	<D42F6491-F915-4F4A-880B-425988CC1E83@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=NXjxaYZWx+U0AD-41rMsvBqZPk0wKVU+FSfDa@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/14 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> If that human decision is deterministic (and sometimes it probably isn't)
> then you always walk left and there is no universe where you go right, so
> obviously there is no split.

If there is no universe where you go right, better to keep to the left
else you simply won't exist.


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 15 02:25:20 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 18:25:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
Message-ID: <197711.55689.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


>
>From: John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 9:36:33 PM
>Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect (was: CQT Researcher)

Suppose there were a radioactive atom with a half life of 60 minutes, in Many 
Worlds one way of looking at it, that's not really correct mathematically but 
can help getting an intuitive feel of it, is that if you look at it after 60 
minutes the universe will have split into 2 with the atom decaying in one and 
not in the other. If you look after 30 minutes there is a 25% chance it will 
decay so the universe will have split into 4 with 3 having no decay and one with 



decay, if you look after another 30 minutes each of those 3 will have split yet 
again with 3 having no decay and one with decay. If you looked after just a 
nanosecond one universe will see decay and many billions will not, you can see 
that the number of Damiens (who splits just like everything else) who see no 
decay of the atom vastly outnumbers the Damiens that do see decay, and more 
often you check the larger the outnumbering. There will never be a 0% chance you 



will see a decay but you can approach it?asymptotically if you keep checking on 
the atom at smaller and smaller time intervals, and this is just what we observe 



in the?Quantum Zeno effect.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




The Quantum Zeno effect has me perplexed. Riddle me this, quantish thinkers: If 
simply observing unstable 

particles can keep them from decaying, then?why do Geiger counters work at all? 
Each 

time a decay happens the Geiger counter clicks so I suppose it could be thought 
of as a continuous measurement of radioactive decay. Does a Geiger counter not 
count as a "quantum measurement" for some reason? Is it because?it is continuous 

and not 

discrete? Does the measurement have to be active instead of passive?i.e. do you 
have to?shoot?photons at the?unstable particle for the Quantum Zeno Effect to?be 


observed? Is it because the geiger counter doesn't cover a complete 4*pi 
steradians around the sample and?many decay events go unnoticed? I have Googled 
on the subject and the actual?experiment that?demonstrated the Quantum Zeno 
Effect by Itano et al uses energy level 

transitions of an?electron from a berylium ion?and not radioactive decay of any 
type. So it really did not shed much light on my questions. Here is a summary of 
their experiment:
http://www.ph.utexas.edu/fogs/symposium/Movies/5-QuantumZeno/3_Itano.pdf
?
And if the Quantum Zeno Effect does apply to radioactive decay, then 
wouldn't the radioactivitity detector that triggers the poison?inside the box 
with Schrodinger's cat, 

keep said cat alive by constantly?checking on the decay of the isotope??
?
Stuart LaForge 

"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower??


      



From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 02:17:49 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:17:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYTimes.com: Decoding the Human Brain,
	With Help From a Fly
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimkZWa2kKbY4ApiaRzE5Gf6U4oHuRMzhMYtNgNj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4d07b9b7.818c2a0a.1289.6b48SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
	<AANLkTimkZWa2kKbY4ApiaRzE5Gf6U4oHuRMzhMYtNgNj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimH-VxponAkZXh+syowG2UdYBbLoDe1HqJmkTnU@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/14 Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>:
> Decoding the Human Brain, With Help From a Fly
>
> Taiwanese researchers have managed to bar code some 16,000 of the 100,000
> neurons in a fruit fly?s brain and to reconstruct the brain?s wiring map.
>
> In terms similar to those that define computers, the team describes the
> general architecture of the fly?s brain as composed of 41 local processing
> units, 58 tracts that link the units to other parts of the brain, and six
> hubs.
>
> Biologists see this atlas of the fly brain as a first step toward
> understanding the human brain. Six of the chemicals that transmit messages
> between neurons are the same in both species. And the general structure ?
> two hemispheres with copious cross-links ? is also similar.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This certainly has implications for doing the same with human brains.

Do you think flies have the same shit on their minds too?



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 02:49:07 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:49:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <4D07D681.6020005@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>
	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>
	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>
	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
	<17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>
	<4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>
	<D42F6491-F915-4F4A-880B-425988CC1E83@bellsouth.net>
	<4D07D681.6020005@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin8g_CYoaxdm6=2HN97nmiFh_nW1xFqx80s__Za@mail.gmail.com>

John wrote:

>as for free will, people don't mean anything by it, it's just a noise made
by the mouth.<

I like to think of it as temporarily denying one evolutionary imperative in
favour of another. Kind of like what Quentin Crisp said politicians have
perfected the art of doing: making the inevitable seem like a matter of wise
human choice.

Darren



On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 12/14/2010 12:38 PM, John Clark wrote:
>
>>
>>  the sort of thing Nobelist Eccles got all excited about, because he
>>> thought that might be a place where a non-physical entity or soul
>>> might couple to the machinery.
>>>
>>
>> I suppose so, but I don't understand why he got all excited, randomness
>> is not what people usually mean by the soul; as for free will, people
>> don't mean anything by it, it's just a noise made by the mouth.
>>
>
> I haven't read Popper&Eccles for a while so I don't recall the exact
> argument, but I assume he thought that if a metastable state was somehow so
> delicately poised that it could flip any allowable way, a shove by a magical
> soul could tip it in the desired deterministic direction. In other words, it
> would be a hidden variable. Doesn't make any sense to me, either. But maybe
> Eccles-type souls live in the seventh rolled up dimension and can do shit
> like that.
>
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 15 03:08:05 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:08:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] NYTimes.com: Decoding the Human Brain,
 With Help From a Fly
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimH-VxponAkZXh+syowG2UdYBbLoDe1HqJmkTnU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4d07b9b7.818c2a0a.1289.6b48SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>	<AANLkTimkZWa2kKbY4ApiaRzE5Gf6U4oHuRMzhMYtNgNj@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimH-VxponAkZXh+syowG2UdYBbLoDe1HqJmkTnU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D083115.40401@satx.rr.com>

On 12/14/2010 8:17 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:

>> This certainly has implications for doing the same with human brains.
>
> Do you think flies have the same shit on their minds too?

Perhaps I tread on your implied joke, but I have it on good authority 
that flies have nothing *but* shit on their minds.

Damien Broderick


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 04:02:34 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:02:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A War on Death
Message-ID: <AANLkTimdhgAr0ib22y=UsLd-6pGjYwXiVCftoP-DCYoF@mail.gmail.com>

Just found this, haven't even finished reading it yet.

http://www.counterpunch.com/naylor12102010.html

The objective of the War on Death would be quite simply to make all
Americans immortal.  It would incorporate the new field of medicine
known as transhumanism, described by Joel Garreau in his book Radical
Evolution, in which advances in genetics, robotics, information
technology, and nano technology allow us to improve our intelligence,
reinvent our bodies, and possibly live forever.

Best, Jeff Davis

          "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                     Ray Charles


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 04:07:21 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:07:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A War on Death
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimdhgAr0ib22y=UsLd-6pGjYwXiVCftoP-DCYoF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimdhgAr0ib22y=UsLd-6pGjYwXiVCftoP-DCYoF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimEaiYZSip-+8LORiPiwP47hXTDgbVZ+vLfygiy@mail.gmail.com>

Started out strong, but then something happened...

Best, Jeff Davis

 "We don't see things as they are,
       we see them as we are."
                  Anais Nin


On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just found this, haven't even finished reading it yet.
>
> http://www.counterpunch.com/naylor12102010.html
>
> The objective of the War on Death would be quite simply to make all
> Americans immortal. ?It would incorporate the new field of medicine
> known as transhumanism, described by Joel Garreau in his book Radical
> Evolution, in which advances in genetics, robotics, information
> technology, and nano technology allow us to improve our intelligence,
> reinvent our bodies, and possibly live forever.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
> ? ? ? ? ?"Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Ray Charles
>



From scerir at alice.it  Wed Dec 15 06:05:10 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 07:05:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <197711.55689.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <197711.55689.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C805AF3D0443DCA6F7860A6F360177@PCserafino>

The Quantum Zeno effect has me perplexed. Riddle me this, quantish thinkers: If
simply observing unstable particles can keep them from decaying, then why do
Geiger counters work at all?
Stuart

-----------

Dunno if Asher Peres explains all that here
http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/QM/peres_ajp_48_931_80.pdf
or here
http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/QM/peres_ajp_48_552_80.pdf

Anyway, the observation that a quantum state has not decayed causes the reduction
of the wavefunction to the non-decayed state. Thus it is possible to argue that a
very frequently (or continuosly) observed state cannot decay. This is difficult to get.
The probability that the state decays goes quadratically with time (in the range of short
times). In spontaneous decay, the interval during which the probability goes quadratically
is very short if compared to the time required to make a measurement.

"G.C.Ghirardi, C.Omero, T.Weber, A.Rimini, "Nuovo Cimento", 52A, 421, (1979),
have shown, by general arguments based on the time-energy uncertainty relations,
that the dependence of the lifetime on the frequency of measurements, although
present in principle, would be extremely difficul to observe.". This in usual cases.
But there are very specifically designed experiments in which the Zeno effect
has been observed. 




From scerir at alice.it  Wed Dec 15 06:12:22 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 07:12:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin8g_CYoaxdm6=2HN97nmiFh_nW1xFqx80s__Za@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com><7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net><000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net><AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com><003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net><005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net><4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com><17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net><4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com><D42F6491-F915-4F4A-880B-425988CC1E83@bellsouth.net><4D07D681.6020005@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTin8g_CYoaxdm6=2HN97nmiFh_nW1xFqx80s__Za@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C6DB0F1F6AC4288BE2754D94949AA37@PCserafino>

> John wrote:
> 
> as for free will, people don't mean anything by it, it's just a noise made
> by the mouth.<
> 
> I like to think of it as temporarily denying one evolutionary imperative in
> favour of another. 
> 
> Darren

is that, or the free-will, compatible with MWI? :-)




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 15 06:57:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:57:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <20101215004609.GA16940@ofb.net>
References: <mailman.1.1292241602.16684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<957074.83263.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001d01cb9aed$361a21c0$a24e6540$@att.net>
	<20101215004609.GA16940@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <00bd01cb9c25$5c893510$159b9f30$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Damien Sullivan
Subject: Re: [ExI] Who is safe?

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 09:43:10AM -0800, spike wrote:

>> or none of it.  Even then, it is difficult to see how reading a few 
>> cables would turn anyone's attitude.  From what I have seen, there is 
>> nothing particularly scandalous in there.

>http://mindstalk.livejournal.com/264371.html

>Coverups of mass killings; US contractors supporting pedophilia;
complacency to Ugandan war crimes; Hillary illegally ordering our diplomats
to spy on allies; our formal policy of not investigating Iraqi human rights
abuses; interference in the Spanish judiciary; US/Swedish cooperation kept
secret from the Swedish people

>But hey, nothing scandalous.  Just gossip, right?

>-xx- Damien X-)

But how do we know these are true?  Any of this could have been written by
anyone after the leak, or could be counterfeit, intentionally placed in case
of a leak.  Do we have any way to confirm any of it?

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 15 07:08:25 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:08:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <42C805AF3D0443DCA6F7860A6F360177@PCserafino>
References: <197711.55689.qm@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<42C805AF3D0443DCA6F7860A6F360177@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <00bf01cb9c26$dec083c0$9c418b40$@att.net>


Subject: Re: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect

The Quantum Zeno effect has me perplexed. Riddle me this, quantish thinkers:
If simply observing unstable particles can keep them from decaying, then why
do Geiger counters work at all?
Stuart

-----------

It doesn't work!  When I was five, I was told a watched pot never boils.
Set that thing on the stove, never took my eyes off it, but that sucker
eventually boiled.  I concluded that grownups were full of shit.

spike







From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 13:37:15 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 00:37:15 +1100
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinbnFfnxPdYpybSsFsA21qqV_k8XSOsWfoX-nFX@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:05 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> ... On Behalf Of Alan Grimes
> ...
> --
> DO NOT USE OBAMACARE.
> DO NOT BUY OBAMACARE.
> Powers are not rights.
>
>
> Alan, I like your tagline. ?As Judge Hudson said today, health care reform
> is a laudable goal, but it must be done legally. ?The legislative process
> must operate within constitutional bounds. ?The Virginia judge issued the
> opinion today that forcing people to buy insurance is outside of those
> bounds. ?Government good intentions are insufficient to offset the absence
> of enumerated powers.
>
> I have nothing against federal government involvement in medical care. ?But
> they have not the authority to make us buy in.
>
> Check out the excellent essay from the Cato Institute:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/12/13/shapiro.court.mandate.health/index.htm
> l?hpt=T2

That link doesn't work. But there are legal opinions contrary to the
Federal Court judge's:

http://www.theconstitutional.org/2010/12/13/health-care-financing-reform-119-virginia-federal-court-strikes-down-individual-mandate-in-health-care-reform-act/

The Federal Court can be overruled by the Supreme Court, and a Supreme
Court judge can interpret the constitution however he pleases. That
you might object that the judge has obviously got it wrong won't carry
a lot of weight. Judges are appointed by the President and the Senate
and can be impeached by Congress and the Senate. They are thus
ultimately the creatures of elected officials.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Dec 15 15:37:53 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:37:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Article: "Epoch of Plasticity: the metaverse as a vehicle for
	cognitive ..." Vita-More
Message-ID: <E8771BE64F6E445E9D90798DA7F6FDED@DFC68LF1>

My article has been published.  (Fyi, the audience is not as knowledgeable
as you all about these things so I had to tone down the content. :-))
 
article: http://www.atypon-link.com/INT/doi/pdf/10.1386/mvcr.1.1.69_1
 
book info: http://www.intellectbooks.co.uk/journals/view-Issue,id=1887/
 
 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More
 
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec 15 16:15:34 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 11:15:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Quantum Zeno effect
In-Reply-To: <4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimu7aQOkmq4CpAiyq3eYJZ3bpiyGoqudkjpFWt9@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik7gZ11m8=s=4yThcvOQ4TY50KeRe=TUSRkaBcu@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinWWPgjG7eZZunig4sG7JXTBP_3vQDawGuJVpj4@mail.gmail.com>	<7B5B104C-43FF-4CF3-9BE0-4515EBBA4CD4@bellsouth.net>	<000301cb935c$f746fcd0$e5d4f670$@att.net>	<AANLkTikBwQuT0q9zzJEDXSZk1b_xoHE7ze+qzfhVbM7+@mail.gmail.com>	<003e01cb93d2$638580e0$2a9082a0$@att.net>	<005901cb93dc$f7bcb9e0$e7362da0$@att.net>	<4CFA8707.2010608@satx.rr.com>
	<17B472ED-7D17-4C4D-B59B-CA65EDCF14C9@bellsouth.net>
	<4D07B123.1070601@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7FDFD2A5-04B7-4108-A358-13A90693F9F6@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 14, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

>> I always understood that quantum measurement hangs upon some specific and crucial quantum event; thus, choices made by large ensembles of atoms don't count. That is, if you conducted the S's cat experiment using a macroscopic randomizer like a series of spinning coins, it wouldn't prove a thing. 

John K Clark wrote:

> I think that's true

After thinking about that response for a while I've come to the conclusion that John K Clark is full of shit and that a spinning coin would work just fine for the Schrodinger Cat Experiment. There must be a universe that is identical with our own in every way EXCEPT that a puff of wind moving at .025 mph hits the coin at a 172 degree angle rather than a 178 degree angle as it does in our universe; this change is tiny by everyday human standards but is enormously larger, astronomically larger really, than the sort of quantum changes Heisenberg was talking about. So in one universe the coin ends up heads and the cat lives and in another the coin ends up tails and the cat dies. 

Many Worlds makes no distinction between a quantum event and a non quantum event, if you use a radioactive atom the difference in universes is that in one the atom decays and the cat dies and in the other the atom doesn't decay and the cat lives; if you use a coin the difference in universes is that in one a micro-puff of air moves at a 172 degree angle and the cat dies and in the other universe a micro-puff of air moves at a 178 degree angle and the cat lives.

 John K Clark

  


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From rahmans at me.com  Wed Dec 15 13:46:48 2010
From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:46:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292414401.6124.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1292414401.6124.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <AE3A2339-A91A-47B9-99C5-F25587409A09@me.com>


> 
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 09:43:10AM -0800, spike wrote:
> 
>>> or none of it.  Even then, it is difficult to see how reading a few 
>>> cables would turn anyone's attitude.  From what I have seen, there is 
>>> nothing particularly scandalous in there.
> 
>> http://mindstalk.livejournal.com/264371.html
> 
>> Coverups of mass killings; US contractors supporting pedophilia;
> complacency to Ugandan war crimes; Hillary illegally ordering our diplomats
> to spy on allies; our formal policy of not investigating Iraqi human rights
> abuses; interference in the Spanish judiciary; US/Swedish cooperation kept
> secret from the Swedish people
> 
>> But hey, nothing scandalous.  Just gossip, right?
> 
>> -xx- Damien X-)
> 
> But how do we know these are true?  Any of this could have been written by
> anyone after the leak, or could be counterfeit, intentionally placed in case
> of a leak.  Do we have any way to confirm any of it?
> 
> spike
> 


"Do we have any way to confirm any of it?" Is that a serious question?How about investigative journalism and civil/criminal inquiries?

These only seem to be useful for dealing with Julian Assange however. Isn't it interesting that his 'sex crimes' trial is going to boil down to a 'he said/she said' situation completely devoid of objective facts at issue? (Everyone agrees that the sex took place, at issue is the consensuality of it.) Also interesting is the fact that it's going to be two against one, which will lend some sort of greater likelihood to the perception of guilt. Added to that is the fact that Julian Assange has no previous accusers in his thirtysome years of life but he is accused of committing two crimes within the span of a week.

The level of self-censorship and cowardice in the media is disgraceful. As disgraceful in fact as the level of complacency and willing blindness among the population.

More attention needs to be put into investigating the veracity of the leaked cables and less into the sideshow that is the Assange 'sex crimes' trial.

Regards,

Omar Rahman




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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 15 17:06:58 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:06:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <AE3A2339-A91A-47B9-99C5-F25587409A09@me.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292414401.6124.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AE3A2339-A91A-47B9-99C5-F25587409A09@me.com>
Message-ID: <005f01cb9c7a$7c22a6e0$7467f4a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Omar Rahman
.


But how do we know these are true?  .  Do we have any way to confirm any of
it?

spike




 

 

>"Do we have any way to confirm any of it?" Is that a serious question?How
about investigative journalism and civil/criminal inquiries?

 

I notice none of the news majors are reporting.  Perhaps they suspect a
trap?  We have seen it before.  Maybe.

 

 

 

>These only seem to be useful for dealing with Julian Assange however. Isn't
it interesting that his 'sex crimes' trial is going to boil down to a 'he
said/she said' situation completely devoid of objective facts at issue?...

 

Sounds to me like the first girl didn't know she had been raped until a
couple days later when she learned he was sleeping with her friend.  I bet
he will walk on both charges.

 

.

 

The level of self-censorship and cowardice in the media is disgraceful. As
disgraceful in fact as the level of complacency and willing blindness among
the population.Omar Rahman

 

Hmmm, due caution is justifiable while standing next to the smoking crater
made by Dan Rather and Gary Webb, both of which may have had some government
complicity in their downfall.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 17:48:24 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 10:48:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikaiZstf3skd63ToDOmW2LD9Ko_bBeGVMns+GZ+@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:00 AM,   "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

snip

> But how do we know these are true? ?Any of this could have been written by
> anyone after the leak, or could be counterfeit, intentionally placed in case
> of a leak. ?Do we have any way to confirm any of it?

There has been no denying of anything as fake by the US government.
That's not exactly conformation, but it sure is a strong indication.

Incidentally, the response of the US government has been over the top
considering what has come out so far.  Of course, the government know
what's in those cable since they certainly have copies.  That leads to
the speculation that there are cables that expose much more damaging
matters.

Governments come and go, so it is possible to be a patriot to the
country and the ideals it was founded on without being a supporter of
the current government.  My experiences with the US government at
levels from county to federal supporting outright criminals has been
most instructive in this regard.

It is possible that Manning will eventually be classed a patriot and
Assange honored as a hero in the US, along the lines of the remarkably
similar story of Daniel Ellsberg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg.

As Talleyrand said: "Treason is a matter of dates."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Maurice_de_Talleyrand-P%C3%A9rigord

Keith Henson



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec 15 18:01:32 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 13:01:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A War on Death
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEaiYZSip-+8LORiPiwP47hXTDgbVZ+vLfygiy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimdhgAr0ib22y=UsLd-6pGjYwXiVCftoP-DCYoF@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimEaiYZSip-+8LORiPiwP47hXTDgbVZ+vLfygiy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15F82F0C-3002-4CD6-9868-2BD615E8DFE2@bellsouth.net>

On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:07 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:

> Started out strong, but then something happened...

Yes. I have never in my life read a short article that contained 8 rhetorical questions and a exclamation point that I did not think was kinda stupid, nor one that ended with "we might all become the living dead". I conclude that this distinguished professor from Duke University is kinda stupid too.

  John K Clark
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Dec 15 18:04:53 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:04:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] The tyranny of context free grammars
In-Reply-To: <4CFEF80E.50308@speakeasy.net>
References: <AANLkTi=f9tEa=rA6pt001dnOCPn=Kzw8vjamxHa1kot+@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101207200142.GP9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTin8CedHn++FCXUNtYWuwgab+yyf48qq6r_2rrof@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CFEF80E.50308@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012151822470.3449@tau.ceti.pl>

On Tue, 7 Dec 2010, Alan Grimes wrote:

> Ryan Rawson wrote:
> > was merely pointing out the downfall of a context-ful grammar, since
> > the original poster makes it seem like "if only we shed the shackles
> > of CFGs we'd be better for it".  There is a dark side of that though,
> > and perl is one of them... I've written a few thousand lines of perl,
> > it's great for hacking things out, but trying to re-discover what you
> > coded a few weeks/months/years ago can be... difficult.
> 
> Not quite.

Let's say there is strong human factor in this - some people so much 
dislike Perl that they have to relearn it every time they have a caprice 
to "try it once more" (I seem to fall into this category).

> I was pointing out that the paradigm of the chomsky heirarchy is
> limiting in that it has failed to provide us with the tools we need to
> design software for CAM architectures which would seem to enable, with
> today's technology, several orders of magnitude more performance per
> transistor than is possible with von-neuman machines because millions of
> bits could be computed per clock cycle instead of a few thousand...
> 
> Of course there could be problems with the idea of the cellular automata
> as being an optimal computing architecture. In any event, computronium
> is not just a fabrication issue, it's also a computer science issue.

While von Neumann architecture is not perfect, I think it was the easiest 
__usable__ thing to be built in the past and it will continue to be such 
in the quite a long future. Thanks to increasing performance, one can 
research, emulate, and maybe find, a better computing architecture. After 
emulation of the concept proves to be good, one can design 
"transistor-level" implementation (VHDL or whatever is suitable for ASIC 
synthesis) and submit it to manufacturer specialising in ASIC 
custom-building. Or one can push this low-level design into FPGA.

I'm not sure cellular automata is better alternative for v-N. I guess it 
is one of the easiest to fabricate, but programming it is, IMHO, tricky in 
best case. And I don't want to think about debugging it. I may yet learn 
the opposite after reading Wolfram's "New Kind of Science" but I don't 
expect this much, even though I expect quite a lot :-).

Anyway, I may change my thinking when I see Linux ported to CA-CPU :-). 
Before this happens, CAs are probably going to be confined to coprocessors 
and other such helper hardware. And to be frank, I would rather invest my 
time in something else, even though ATM I am not quite sure what exactly 
(the subject is broad and needs a lot of exploring).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 15 18:51:04 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 10:51:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikaiZstf3skd63ToDOmW2LD9Ko_bBeGVMns+GZ+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikaiZstf3skd63ToDOmW2LD9Ko_bBeGVMns+GZ+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01cb9c89$069064d0$13b12e70$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Keith Henson
Subject: Re: [ExI] Who is safe?

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:00 AM,   "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

snip

>> But how do we know these are true? ?Any of this could have been 
>> written by anyone after the leak, or could be counterfeit, 
>> intentionally placed in case of a leak. ?Do we have any way to confirm
any of it?

>...There has been no denying of anything as fake by the US government...

Ja, I wouldn't expect any denials at this point.  The target isn't Assange
so much as the news majors, who are even still looked upon as arbiters of
sufficient evidence.

>...That's not exactly conformation, but it sure is a strong indication...

It is a strong indication, but it isn't clear to me what it indicates.  If
the file is salted with juicy gossip, memetic Trojan horses and booby traps,
those who placed them there would not say anything.  Yet.  If Julian or one
of his associates wrote them, they wouldn't say anything at all.  If the CIA
wrote them, they would wait until a political adversary takes the bait.  It
is possible Julian Assange is being used as a tool or a distraction but he
is not a sufficiently valuable target to justify expending the munitions.

Watch carefully in the next few weeks.  Listen and think of every
possibility.  There may be more than one bad guy, who may not even be
working together, nor all be on the same side. 

Keith I don't know if you were ever a San Jose Mercury News reader, but if
so, you may have followed Gary Webb's career trajectory.  He published some
incendiary charges against the CIA, which were later disowned by the Merc.
This whole Assange adventure feels a little like that episode.  In the end,
Webb perished of two gunshots to the head, eventually declared
self-inflicted.  Indeed?  Did he have a double barreled shotgun? An
automatic machine gun?  Two pistols fired simultaneously?  Interestingly,
several news sources later reported (again with insufficient evidence) that
the CIA had confessed to "more than Gary reported" but apparently not the
exact charges that Gary reported.  In that case his gunshot wounds, if
self-inflicted, would be considered justifiable homicide.  Otherwise not.
His story hit the headlines over 14 years ago, but I remember it like it was
yesterday.

>Incidentally, the response of the US government has been over the top
considering what has come out so far...

That's one of the things that makes me suspicious.  If they doth protest too
much, they bring suspicion upon that which they are too-vigorously denying.
That draws the attention of the investigators, who are distracted from the
more damaging stuff.  After exhaustive investigation, the truth eventually
comes out: the government was actually telling the truth on that particular
aspect.  They were telling it in a misleading way by insisting with
excessive enthusiasm, causing the suspicious to doubt.  The adversarial news
agencies have then invested precious resources and credibility, only to make
their own government look like a den of truth-tellers.  Hey it has happened
spectacularly in the cases of Dan Rather and Gary Webb.

Am I cynical or what?  {8^D  This makes me a double conspiracy theorist The
bad guys attack the worse guys by telling the truth in such a way that it
sounds like a lie.

> Of course, the government know what's in those cable since they certainly
have copies...

If they are cleared to a sufficient level they are.  Those below that do not
know which are real and which could be memetic landmines...

>It is possible that Manning will eventually be classed a patriot and
Assange honored as a hero in the US...Keith Henson

Ja, they already are by plenty of Americans.  

Note that neither Assange nor PFC Manning are making any specific
accusations, but rather are both merely messengers.  Let us see if any of
the news majors will make any specific accusations based on the wikileaks
material.  Has anyone seen any?

spike









From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 15 19:40:08 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 11:40:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <000f01cb9c89$069064d0$13b12e70$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTikaiZstf3skd63ToDOmW2LD9Ko_bBeGVMns+GZ+@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cb9c89$069064d0$13b12e70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <001101cb9c8f$e2781cd0$a7685670$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of spike

>...Watch carefully in the next few weeks.  Listen and think of every
possibility.  There may be more than one bad guy, who may not even be
working together, nor all be on the same side... Keith I don't know if you
were ever a San Jose Mercury News reader, but if so, you may have followed
Gary Webb's career trajectory...His story hit the headlines over 14 years
ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday... spike

Note that when any major news agency takes a head shot, its credibility
never recovers.  The Merc has been in decline ever since the 1996 debacle.
CBS has not ventured very far into political scandal reporting since 2004,
for it is too easy for them to imagine any other news agency, such as that
fair and balanced outfit, making snarky comments such as "...CBS, the neeews
agency of Dan Raaaather, is reporting..."

Long timers here may recall discussions on the future of war we used to have
here about 10 or 12 years ago.  We remarked that future warfare may be
unrecognizable as such, for it would be missing many of the universal
aspects of warfare that has been with us since the first ape hurled a stone
at another ape.  Future warfare may have no explosions, no injury or death,
no clear chain of command, no uniforms, no fires, no starving refugees.
Warfare has already suddenly lost one of the most universal aspects: the
terror and confusion of battle.  Future wars could start and end quickly,
with many of the participants unaware that a war had occurred.  The damage
may not be apparent for years, if at all.  It may be debatable whether the
events can even be called warfare.  The damage may be ambiguous.  

We are in such an ambiguous warfare right now.  Imagine for instance,
somehow all passenger airline travel is choked to death by the necessity of
security measures that cause a sufficient number of customers to just say
no, and we drop below critical mass to sustain the system.  Real or implied
threats cause the whole system to just collapse or flame out.  But then
businesses compensate by figuring out ways to move information instead of
meat.  It is far cheaper and in many ways more effective to move bits
instead of butts.  

Who won and who lost?  Why?  How?

spike



 




From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 22:23:31 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:23:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Videos, News stories,
	and more from Breakthrough Philanthropy!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikYGF-paLCPmXbQFA9hgQQ91pRcMa1qUuRQgZjv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DIRECTIQ141a5958b612a9545a0a0902e15899b3cda@DIRECTIQ141>
	<AANLkTikYGF-paLCPmXbQFA9hgQQ91pRcMa1qUuRQgZjv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWffVO6xJaaSXCzA3wn=TE-sNQb-V3H7u_6sSz@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Thomas McCabe <pphysics141 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 4:20 PM
Subject: Fwd: Videos, News stories, and more from Breakthrough Philanthropy!
To: Michael Vassar <michael.vassar at gmail.com>, SIAI House <
sihouse at singinst.org>, "Mailing list for the Board, advisors, and staff of
Humanity+" <leadership at humanityplus.org>




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Breakthrough Philanthropy <
BreakthroughPhilanthropy at thielfoundation.org>
Date: Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Subject: Videos, News stories, and more from Breakthrough Philanthropy!
To: "pphysics141 at gmail.com" <pphysics141 at gmail.com>


Thanks so much for coming to last week's Breakthrough Philanthropy event!
We've got videos up, so you can be re-inspired by your favorite talks, share
them with your friends, or (for those of you who weren't able to make it)
see them for the first time. Here's a playlist of the entire
evening<http://www.directiq.com/system/ct.asp?t=ABADBBAC81B7BAE3ECE6E9EAEFE6E7EAE7F8BDB2B7BBB0AA81B7BAE3EDE6EBF8BDBFB3AEBFB7B9B081B7BAE3E7E7EDEE&linkID=1&link=http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=34BCFE6D55D881A1>(some
email clients, like gmail, filter embedded video, so if
it doesn't appear below, just click
here)<http://www.directiq.com/system/ct.asp?t=ABADBBAC81B7BAE3ECE6E9EAEFE6E7EAE7F8BDB2B7BBB0AA81B7BAE3EDE6EBF8BDBFB3AEBFB7B9B081B7BAE3E7E7EDEE&linkID=2&link=http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=34BCFE6D55D881A1>
:

  We'll be getting photos up as soon as we can - join the event Facebook
Group to see when they are
posted<http://www.directiq.com/system/ct.asp?t=ABADBBAC81B7BAE3ECE6E9EAEFE6E7EAE7F8BDB2B7BBB0AA81B7BAE3EDE6EBF8BDBFB3AEBFB7B9B081B7BAE3E7E7EDEE&linkID=3&link=http://www.facebook.com/breakthroughphilanthropy?v=app_4949752878>.
Here's some great news coverage of the evening:

   - Silicon Valley billionaire backs futuristic
philanthropy<http://www.directiq.com/system/ct.asp?t=ABADBBAC81B7BAE3ECE6E9EAEFE6E7EAE7F8BDB2B7BBB0AA81B7BAE3EDE6EBF8BDBFB3AEBFB7B9B081B7BAE3E7E7EDEE&linkID=4&link=http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_16792615>(
   *San Jose Mercury News*). *"Silicon Valley billionaire Peter Thiel
   worries that people aren't thinking big enough about the future. So he's
   convening an unusual philanthropic summit..."*
   - Breakthrough Philanthropy - Thiel Foundation
Event<http://www.directiq.com/system/ct.asp?t=ABADBBAC81B7BAE3ECE6E9EAEFE6E7EAE7F8BDB2B7BBB0AA81B7BAE3EDE6EBF8BDBFB3AEBFB7B9B081B7BAE3E7E7EDEE&linkID=5&link=http://benetech.blogspot.com/2010/12/breakthrough-philanthropy-thiel.html>,
   by Jim Fruchterman, President of Benetech. *"I see the same kind of
   energy present in these groups that I saw in the early days of the private
   rocket business in the 1980s (and to be honest, in the social
   entrepreneurship movement of today!)."*
   - Behind the scenes of Jason Hope's $500,000 donation announced at
   Breakthrough
Philanthropy<http://www.directiq.com/system/ct.asp?t=ABADBBAC81B7BAE3ECE6E9EAEFE6E7EAE7F8BDB2B7BBB0AA81B7BAE3EDE6EBF8BDBFB3AEBFB7B9B081B7BAE3E7E7EDEE&linkID=6&link=http://scidoll.com/a-breakthrough-philanthropist/>.
   *"It?s around 8.30pm. I?m not sure exactly: I?m not looking at my watch
   any more. Mike just set out the Foundation?s mission with the greatest
   clarity I?ve ever heard, and I?m standing in the line for sushi with Jason,
   talking about the applause that filled the room when we announced his
   $500,000 donation."*

 As we announced at the event, *the Thiel Foundation will match the first
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Thanks so much to those who have already begun a new philanthropic
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 15 23:12:34 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:12:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 4th phase of water?
Message-ID: <4D094B62.6070705@satx.rr.com>

Remarkable video, Faculty Lecture of water "exclusion zone," U. Washington:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVBEwn6iWOo>


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 15 23:30:04 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 15:30:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
Message-ID: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>


"...WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange tried to hide his bail address from the
public in an astonishing move for the man responsible for leaking thousands
of diplomatic secrets..."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338832/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-ask
ed-judge-bail-address-secret.html

Wait a minute, this isn't a good thing.  It is only good when the privacy of
the bad guy is violated.  When the good guy's privacy is subjected to
involuntary transparency, then is a bad thing, ja?  When the guy who
de-closeted the bad guy is himself thrown out of the closet, then we need to
determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy, in order to decide if
privacy is a good thing or a bad thing.

Who is evil in this case, the British judge or Assange?  What if some
bastard had leaked Julian's address to Wikileaks, and Julian didn't notice
it was in there, mixed with a ream of other text, so he accidentally outed
himself against his own will?  Then is he good or bad?  This determines if
he deserves his privacy or needs the disinfectant of sunlight.

Of course we don't know if the address is real or a clever diversionary
tactic.

Oh this is fun.  {8^D

spike








From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 23:52:44 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 15:52:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>

Kind of different, one is court documents regarding a private
individual, the other is bureaucratic documents about government
officials.   I think it's possible to believe in governmental
transparency and privacy rights for individuals without being
hypocritical.

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> "...WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange tried to hide his bail address from the
> public in an astonishing move for the man responsible for leaking thousands
> of diplomatic secrets..."
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338832/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-ask
> ed-judge-bail-address-secret.html
>
> Wait a minute, this isn't a good thing. ?It is only good when the privacy of
> the bad guy is violated. ?When the good guy's privacy is subjected to
> involuntary transparency, then is a bad thing, ja? ?When the guy who
> de-closeted the bad guy is himself thrown out of the closet, then we need to
> determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy, in order to decide if
> privacy is a good thing or a bad thing.
>
> Who is evil in this case, the British judge or Assange? ?What if some
> bastard had leaked Julian's address to Wikileaks, and Julian didn't notice
> it was in there, mixed with a ream of other text, so he accidentally outed
> himself against his own will? ?Then is he good or bad? ?This determines if
> he deserves his privacy or needs the disinfectant of sunlight.
>
> Of course we don't know if the address is real or a clever diversionary
> tactic.
>
> Oh this is fun. ?{8^D
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 00:24:33 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 20:24:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikUV_BOZJHoFtyuj_CUw4uQTE4gcm5x5RguEU0v@mail.gmail.com>

The British press enjoy doing stuff like this. When I lived in London a
decade ago, the News Of The World published the names and addresses of
British sex offenders from the national registry, which then forced some of
them to midnight move without re-registering for fear it would happen again.
Brilliant bit. Sold a lot of papers. Maybe some
enterprising journalist remembered that, thought about Assange's charges in
Sweden, and had an epiphany at breakfast.

Darren



On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 7:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> "...WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange tried to hide his bail address from
> the
> public in an astonishing move for the man responsible for leaking thousands
> of diplomatic secrets..."
>
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338832/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-ask
> ed-judge-bail-address-secret.html
>
> Wait a minute, this isn't a good thing.  It is only good when the privacy
> of
> the bad guy is violated.  When the good guy's privacy is subjected to
> involuntary transparency, then is a bad thing, ja?  When the guy who
> de-closeted the bad guy is himself thrown out of the closet, then we need
> to
> determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy, in order to decide if
> privacy is a good thing or a bad thing.
>
> Who is evil in this case, the British judge or Assange?  What if some
> bastard had leaked Julian's address to Wikileaks, and Julian didn't notice
> it was in there, mixed with a ream of other text, so he accidentally outed
> himself against his own will?  Then is he good or bad?  This determines if
> he deserves his privacy or needs the disinfectant of sunlight.
>
> Of course we don't know if the address is real or a clever diversionary
> tactic.
>
> Oh this is fun.  {8^D
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From algaenymph at gmail.com  Wed Dec 15 23:46:52 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 15:46:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
 address
In-Reply-To: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D09536C.1020302@gmail.com>

On 12/15/10 3:30 PM, spike wrote:

> Wait a minute, this isn't a good thing.  It is only good when the privacy of
> the bad guy is violated.  When the good guy's privacy is subjected to
> involuntary transparency, then is a bad thing, ja?

Maybe.

http://xkcd.com/834/


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec 16 00:57:41 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:57:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian
	assange's	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Ryan Rawson
Subject: Re: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
address

>...Kind of different, one is court documents regarding a private
individual, the other is bureaucratic documents about government
officials.   I think it's possible to believe in governmental transparency
and privacy rights for individuals without being hypocritical...


Ja, but of course there is that ambiguous intersection between individual's
privacy rights and government transparency, with this being a perfect
example.  In most cases in the US, criminal court proceedings are considered
public domain.  But generally no one digs thru court records to find
anything specific.  On the other hand in this wonderful age of government
transparency, anyone could go find anyone else's court records and leak them
to Wikileaks.

I can see so many ironic results.  Suppose Wikileaks wants to out some
government scoundrel, so the scoundrel gets a 100 page document that she
wrote, changes a few names in order to implicate someone else she doesn't
like, then somewhere inserts the sentence "Julian Assange's address is
{yakkity yak and bla bla}" then leaks the document anonymously to Wikileaks.
The staff at Wikileaks can't read everything, but this looks good, so they
post it.  A thousand people each read a piece here and a piece there,
someone eventually discovers the sentence, and Julian outs himself
inadvertently.

This is a wildly complicated issue.  I have seen oversimplifications to good
or bad, seen it everywhere, even on this list.  Ignoring the whole rape
thing, which sounds bogus to me, Julian is still an ambiguously good guy and
a bad guy simultaneously.

Perhaps Damien or one of the other SF hipsters can identify a story that I
read a looooong time ago, over 30 yrs I think, where Asimov deals with this
exact issue.  A scientist discovers some wonderful algorithm which allows
him to regressively calculate quantum states to figure out exactly what
happened at any given place at any time past.  He shows it to a colleague
who shows it to someone else, but government goons find out and chase and
catch one of them, who warns the other two, who flee in terror, and each
tell someone else.  By the time the chase scene is over, the evil government
goons have rounded up about 30 guys and have them all in custody.  Last
scene, the head evil goon says something like "We have all of you now, but
we have plenty of reason to think the secret has not been fully contained.
So there is no point in killing you.  You are all free to go.  From now on,
no one has any privacy, present or past.  There are no secrets anywhere ever
again.  Welcome to your new world gentlemen, and may you all rot in hell."

Damien, ever heard of it?

spike



On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> "...WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange tried to hide his bail address 
> from the public in an astonishing move for the man responsible for 
> leaking thousands of diplomatic secrets..."
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338832/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assan
> ge-ask
> ed-judge-bail-address-secret.html
>
> Wait a minute, this isn't a good thing. ?It is only good when the 
> privacy of the bad guy is violated. ?When the good guy's privacy is 
> subjected to involuntary transparency, then is a bad thing, ja? ?When 
> the guy who de-closeted the bad guy is himself thrown out of the 
> closet, then we need to determine who is the good guy and who is the 
> bad guy, in order to decide if privacy is a good thing or a bad thing.
>
> Who is evil in this case, the British judge or Assange? ?What if some 
> bastard had leaked Julian's address to Wikileaks, and Julian didn't 
> notice it was in there, mixed with a ream of other text, so he 
> accidentally outed himself against his own will? ?Then is he good or 
> bad? ?This determines if he deserves his privacy or needs the disinfectant
of sunlight.
>
> Of course we don't know if the address is real or a clever 
> diversionary tactic.
>
> Oh this is fun. ?{8^D
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





From listsb at infinitefaculty.org  Thu Dec 16 01:01:21 2010
From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 20:01:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
 address
In-Reply-To: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D0964E1.2060603@infinitefaculty.org>


El 2010-12-15 18:30, spike escribi?:

[....]

> Who is evil in this case, the British judge or Assange?  What if some
> bastard had leaked Julian's address to Wikileaks, and Julian didn't notice
> it was in there, mixed with a ream of other text, so he accidentally outed
> himself against his own will?  Then is he good or bad?  This determines if
> he deserves his privacy or needs the disinfectant of sunlight.
>
> Of course we don't know if the address is real or a clever diversionary
> tactic.
>
> Oh this is fun.  {8^D
>
> spike

Hej Spike!

Yes, this has been an amazing trip! Such irony, everywhere!

I'm back in Colombia now, but I was in Sweden when the diplomatic cables 
got leaked. Truly astonishing to watch the press reaction in Western Europe.

In response to a few other comments here: Uncle Jules is not simply a 
private individual, he is (or was or whatever the sitch now be) the head 
of organization making extraordinary claims about the virtues of 
"RADICAL openness". Pardon laziness, but my (very harsh) views on 
Assange are best captured by a recent Facebook status update:


-------------

"I, Julian (<heart!>) believe in transparency! (Except when it applies 
to my own organization.)" "I, Julian (<heart!>), believe in open 
discussion. That's why we have a wiki; and check out our cool name, 
"WIKIleaks" -- 'anyone can edit!' (But we had to shut down the wiki 
because the discussion was too open.)"

?"I, Uncle Jules, am NOT imperious!" screams Julian imperiously, as he 
imperiously fires several employees/volunteers because they called him 
imperious and suspects they've Bradley-Manning-ed information about the 
inner workings of WikiLeaks to The New York Times, which, unlike the 
Guardian, has tried to report on Julian's imperiousness. Then Julian 
imperiously decides no longer to share informtion with the NYT (who 
didn't get the cables in advance from Julian this time, but from a 
different source).

The beautiful revolution.

Sung to the tune of "Won't Get Fooled Again".

It's disturbing that so many people are taking this egomaniacal, 
grandstanding, rebarbative little Stalinist puke seriously.

-------------


I still have hope for the concept of making it possible for people to 
leak information about crimes in a safe way, though. Go for it, OpenLeaks!

Brian



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 01:43:38 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 21:43:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=GyQVF0ucuuSUMg+3nx1iboKkX7vpqtO2Cn66b@mail.gmail.com>

> Ignoring the whole rape thing, which sounds bogus to me, Julian is still
an ambiguously good guy and a bad guy simultaneously.<

As are most people. I cringe whenever I hear the man referred to as a hero.
I cringe, I guess, whenever I hear anyone referred to as one. It's so Song
of Roland/Epic of Gilgamesh. Most of the men and women I admire in history
have turned out to be unremitting bastards upon close examination of their
personal lives. Even Einstein was a infamous womanizer, with a
long-suffering wife.

That's why I enjoy biographies ever so much. Geniuses and notable persons
operating with the same emotional baggage and with the same mix of pure and
impure motivation as the rest of us. The only person I admire whose life
turned out to be as near flawless as his work was Marcel Duchamp. And of
course, most people have either never have heard of him or if they have,
assume he was fraudulent cross-dressing trickster who destroyed the world
of aesthetic art.

Darren



On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 8:57 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> ... On Behalf Of Ryan Rawson
> Subject: Re: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian
> assange's
> address
>
> >...Kind of different, one is court documents regarding a private
> individual, the other is bureaucratic documents about government
> officials.   I think it's possible to believe in governmental transparency
> and privacy rights for individuals without being hypocritical...
>
>
> Ja, but of course there is that ambiguous intersection between individual's
> privacy rights and government transparency, with this being a perfect
> example.  In most cases in the US, criminal court proceedings are
> considered
> public domain.  But generally no one digs thru court records to find
> anything specific.  On the other hand in this wonderful age of government
> transparency, anyone could go find anyone else's court records and leak
> them
> to Wikileaks.
>
> I can see so many ironic results.  Suppose Wikileaks wants to out some
> government scoundrel, so the scoundrel gets a 100 page document that she
> wrote, changes a few names in order to implicate someone else she doesn't
> like, then somewhere inserts the sentence "Julian Assange's address is
> {yakkity yak and bla bla}" then leaks the document anonymously to
> Wikileaks.
> The staff at Wikileaks can't read everything, but this looks good, so they
> post it.  A thousand people each read a piece here and a piece there,
> someone eventually discovers the sentence, and Julian outs himself
> inadvertently.
>
> This is a wildly complicated issue.  I have seen oversimplifications to
> good
> or bad, seen it everywhere, even on this list.  Ignoring the whole rape
> thing, which sounds bogus to me, Julian is still an ambiguously good guy
> and
> a bad guy simultaneously.
>
> Perhaps Damien or one of the other SF hipsters can identify a story that I
> read a looooong time ago, over 30 yrs I think, where Asimov deals with this
> exact issue.  A scientist discovers some wonderful algorithm which allows
> him to regressively calculate quantum states to figure out exactly what
> happened at any given place at any time past.  He shows it to a colleague
> who shows it to someone else, but government goons find out and chase and
> catch one of them, who warns the other two, who flee in terror, and each
> tell someone else.  By the time the chase scene is over, the evil
> government
> goons have rounded up about 30 guys and have them all in custody.  Last
> scene, the head evil goon says something like "We have all of you now, but
> we have plenty of reason to think the secret has not been fully contained.
> So there is no point in killing you.  You are all free to go.  From now on,
> no one has any privacy, present or past.  There are no secrets anywhere
> ever
> again.  Welcome to your new world gentlemen, and may you all rot in hell."
>
> Damien, ever heard of it?
>
> spike
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > "...WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange tried to hide his bail address
> > from the public in an astonishing move for the man responsible for
> > leaking thousands of diplomatic secrets..."
> >
> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338832/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assan
> > ge-ask
> > ed-judge-bail-address-secret.html
> >
> > Wait a minute, this isn't a good thing.  It is only good when the
> > privacy of the bad guy is violated.  When the good guy's privacy is
> > subjected to involuntary transparency, then is a bad thing, ja?  When
> > the guy who de-closeted the bad guy is himself thrown out of the
> > closet, then we need to determine who is the good guy and who is the
> > bad guy, in order to decide if privacy is a good thing or a bad thing.
> >
> > Who is evil in this case, the British judge or Assange?  What if some
> > bastard had leaked Julian's address to Wikileaks, and Julian didn't
> > notice it was in there, mixed with a ream of other text, so he
> > accidentally outed himself against his own will?  Then is he good or
> > bad?  This determines if he deserves his privacy or needs the
> disinfectant
> of sunlight.
> >
> > Of course we don't know if the address is real or a clever
> > diversionary tactic.
> >
> > Oh this is fun.  {8^D
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec 16 02:03:09 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 20:03:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian	assange's
 address
In-Reply-To: <004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>

On 12/15/2010 6:57 PM, spike wrote:
> Perhaps Damien or one of the other SF hipsters can identify a story that I
> read a looooong time ago, over 30 yrs I think, where Asimov deals with this
> exact issue.  A scientist discovers some wonderful algorithm which allows
> him to regressively calculate quantum states to figure out exactly what
> happened at any given place at any time past.  He shows it to a colleague
> who shows it to someone else, but government goons find out and chase and
> catch one of them, who warns the other two, who flee in terror, and each
> tell someone else.  By the time the chase scene is over, the evil government
> goons have rounded up about 30 guys and have them all in custody.  Last
> scene, the head evil goon says something like "We have all of you now, but
> we have plenty of reason to think the secret has not been fully contained.
> So there is no point in killing you.  You are all free to go.  From now on,
> no one has any privacy, present or past.  There are no secrets anywhere ever
> again.  Welcome to your new world gentlemen, and may you all rot in hell."
>
> Damien, ever heard of it?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dead_Past>

but cf. also much later

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Light_of_Other_Days>


From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 02:07:33 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 21:07:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYTimes.com: Decoding the Human Brain,
	With Help From a Fly
In-Reply-To: <4D083115.40401@satx.rr.com>
References: <4d07b9b7.818c2a0a.1289.6b48SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
	<AANLkTimkZWa2kKbY4ApiaRzE5Gf6U4oHuRMzhMYtNgNj@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimH-VxponAkZXh+syowG2UdYBbLoDe1HqJmkTnU@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D083115.40401@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=UP-fS8qq5PsLZSy8z47LvQVV+Vbak0wZTbMHz@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 12/14/2010 8:17 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
>>> This certainly has implications for doing the same with human brains.
>>
>> Do you think flies have the same shit on their minds too?
>
> Perhaps I tread on your implied joke, but I have it on good authority that
> flies have nothing *but* shit on their minds.
>

I don't know, according to this documentary I think they might worry
about spiders too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqYDRxdgnC0
.. make that spiders and large rocks.


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 02:50:41 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 22:50:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <001101cb9c8f$e2781cd0$a7685670$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTikaiZstf3skd63ToDOmW2LD9Ko_bBeGVMns+GZ+@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cb9c89$069064d0$13b12e70$@att.net>
	<001101cb9c8f$e2781cd0$a7685670$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMe5QijBLWWHYD9mCVwc137X8XYiBt59X13yLY@mail.gmail.com>

>Future warfare may have no explosions, no injury or death,
no clear chain of command, no uniforms, no fires, no starving refugees.
Warfare has already suddenly lost one of the most universal aspects: the
terror and confusion of battle.  Future wars could start and end quickly,
with many of the participants unaware that a war had occurred.<

For two hundred years the standard bible for military colleges and
officers-in-training around the world was Von Clausewitz's On War. This
detailed how to win wars since Napoleonic times: nation fighting nation and
making the attack phycological, economic and
strategic, effectively strangling the resistance out of large
nationalized populations though strategic bombing and localized battles in a
"theatre", attrition and laying siege. In the nineties, Martin van Creveld,
an Israeli historian, published a book called The Rise and Decline of the
State, and since then, spurred on by
increasing terrorist and guerilla warfare tactics and
internal acknowledgment of the failure in Vietnam, that book and others by
van Creveld have been the philosophy-of-war manuals for the Pentagon and
many other national military organizations.

The American writer Robert Kaplan also explains quite well in The Coming
Anarchy how wars are fought have been changing dramatically in the last
three decades and will continue to change. Edward Said had quite a bit to
say over the changes in*why* they are being fought.  Interesting stuff. I'd
like to see some of those old posts.


Darren

P.S. If you haven't already and decide to you want to read Van Creveld,
might want to brew lots of coffee. I got through him, but his style is
terribly dry.

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:40 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ... On Behalf Of spike
>
> >...Watch carefully in the next few weeks.  Listen and think of every
> possibility.  There may be more than one bad guy, who may not even be
> working together, nor all be on the same side... Keith I don't know if you
> were ever a San Jose Mercury News reader, but if so, you may have followed
> Gary Webb's career trajectory...His story hit the headlines over 14 years
> ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday... spike
>
> Note that when any major news agency takes a head shot, its credibility
> never recovers.  The Merc has been in decline ever since the 1996 debacle.
> CBS has not ventured very far into political scandal reporting since 2004,
> for it is too easy for them to imagine any other news agency, such as that
> fair and balanced outfit, making snarky comments such as "...CBS, the
> neeews
> agency of Dan Raaaather, is reporting..."
>
> Long timers here may recall discussions on the future of war we used to
> have
> here about 10 or 12 years ago.  We remarked that future warfare may be
> unrecognizable as such, for it would be missing many of the universal
> aspects of warfare that has been with us since the first ape hurled a stone
> at another ape.  Future warfare may have no explosions, no injury or death,
> no clear chain of command, no uniforms, no fires, no starving refugees.
> Warfare has already suddenly lost one of the most universal aspects: the
> terror and confusion of battle.  Future wars could start and end quickly,
> with many of the participants unaware that a war had occurred.  The damage
> may not be apparent for years, if at all.  It may be debatable whether the
> events can even be called warfare.  The damage may be ambiguous.
>
> We are in such an ambiguous warfare right now.  Imagine for instance,
> somehow all passenger airline travel is choked to death by the necessity of
> security measures that cause a sufficient number of customers to just say
> no, and we drop below critical mass to sustain the system.  Real or implied
> threats cause the whole system to just collapse or flame out.  But then
> businesses compensate by figuring out ways to move information instead of
> meat.  It is far cheaper and in many ways more effective to move bits
> instead of butts.
>
> Who won and who lost?  Why?  How?
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Dec 16 03:16:50 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:16:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian	assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
Subject: Re: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
address

On 12/15/2010 6:57 PM, spike wrote:
> ...the chase scene is over, the evil government goons have rounded 
> up about 30 guys and have them all in custody.  Last scene, the head 
> evil goon says something like "We have all of you now, but we have plenty
of reason to think the secret has not been fully contained.
> So there is no point in killing you.  You are all free to go.  From 
> now on, no one has any privacy, present or past.  There are no secrets 
> anywhere ever again.  Welcome to your new world gentlemen, and may you all
rot in hell."
>
> Damien, ever heard of it?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dead_Past>

but cf. also much later

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Light_of_Other_Days>


Thanks Damien!  The mark of good science fiction, or any fiction, is that it
is memorable.  I remember now when I read this.  It was in 1973.  I received
as a gift the newly minted Best of Isaac Asimov, which was published that
year, and which I still own.  My memory of that particular story, but not
the others in that volume, is remarkably clear.

For what it's worth, I myself was once a proponent of much greater openness,
being as I have had a G-rated life, and few secrets.  Now, not so much.  I
recognize there are *plenty* of perfectly legitimate reasons to maintain
privacy rights, and that privacy should extend to *some* government
functions but not all.

Here's what I want from you guys: think carefully and hard, the way I know
you can.  Think of all the *unintended consequences* of Julian Assanges
work, both good and bad.  The notion of good and bad doesn't necessarily
collapse down to one number positive or negative; it is too complex for
that.  So let it be a complex number, with a real good/evil axis and an
imaginary good/evil axis if you wish, or multiple categories or
circumstances.

For instance, Wikileaks can be used to destroy someone even an innocent
person, perhaps a rival for a sweetheart.  One could create a phony document
with the adversary's name on it, in which one insults the radical Mormons.
We know that Mormons are peaceful people, but there is a small percentage of
radical Mormons who misunderstand their peaceful religion, who can be very
dangerous if any careless Episcopalian insults their prophet, with something
as simple as a cartoon.  One could say something rather innocuous, such as:
Joseph Smith was a horny dog, married a nine year old girl, copulated with
her when she was eleven, which was egregious behavior even for the very
liberal standards of his day.

The radical Mormons then issue a Latter Day Complaint against you (you
infidel) at which time they collectively implore their god to remove his
protective hand from you (you sinner) which could result in your getting a
migraine, or your car intentionally scratched, or you and your entire family
being brutally murdered in your own home, that sort of thing.  The closer
you live to Salt Lake City, the greater the risk, and it is rising
everywhere in every nation as Mormons outcompete rival religions through
sheer high volume breeding and guys going around on bicycles with skinny
black ties  They don't assimilate well.

spike











From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec 16 03:50:15 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 21:50:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinMe5QijBLWWHYD9mCVwc137X8XYiBt59X13yLY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikaiZstf3skd63ToDOmW2LD9Ko_bBeGVMns+GZ+@mail.gmail.com>	<000f01cb9c89$069064d0$13b12e70$@att.net>	<001101cb9c8f$e2781cd0$a7685670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinMe5QijBLWWHYD9mCVwc137X8XYiBt59X13yLY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D098C77.3040102@satx.rr.com>

On 12/15/2010 8:50 PM, Darren Greer wrote:

> Edward Said had quite a bit to say over the changes in*why* they are
> being fought.  Interesting stuff. I'd like to see some of those old posts.

I don't think Professor Said was cited here very often. :)

Damien Broderick


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 11:47:47 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 07:47:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <4D098C77.3040102@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikaiZstf3skd63ToDOmW2LD9Ko_bBeGVMns+GZ+@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cb9c89$069064d0$13b12e70$@att.net>
	<001101cb9c8f$e2781cd0$a7685670$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinMe5QijBLWWHYD9mCVwc137X8XYiBt59X13yLY@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D098C77.3040102@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinDab99xFHs3hvszzw2DhmCEQyW1K1zAHvsUBPh@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote:

>I don't think Professor Said was cited here very often. :)<

Probably not. I managed to do it, my first month here when that mosque in
NYC was being hotly debated on this list. Then again, I'll quote anyone, for
anything, if I think I can make a point without having to think for myself.
 I'm still waiting for the opportunity to drop something relevant spoken by
Madonna. :)

Darren



On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 12/15/2010 8:50 PM, Darren Greer wrote:
>
>  Edward Said had quite a bit to say over the changes in*why* they are
>> being fought.  Interesting stuff. I'd like to see some of those old posts.
>>
>
> I don't think Professor Said was cited here very often. :)
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 11:37:01 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:37:01 +0000
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=damb_YGTr+c-ZwnSc3p0d1T4E-fts6+mFxS_-@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 3:16 AM, spike wrote:
> Here's what I want from you guys: think carefully and hard, the way I know
> you can. ?Think of all the *unintended consequences* of Julian Assanges
> work, both good and bad. ?The notion of good and bad doesn't necessarily
> collapse down to one number positive or negative; it is too complex for
> that. ?So let it be a complex number, with a real good/evil axis and an
> imaginary good/evil axis if you wish, or multiple categories or
> circumstances.
>
>

As Darren wrote, everything you do has unintended consequences.
Fortunately some results are good as well as bad. So sometimes things
turn out better than expected, rather than worse than expected. Life's
like that. So enjoy the good outcomes, just as you have to suffer the
bad outcomes.
(Even though being 'unexpected', neither is really down to your decision). :)

What is much more subtle is *not* doing something.  You anticipate
something bad coming, but do nothing to stop or divert it. You can't
be publicly blamed, because nobody else saw it coming and nobody knows
of your insight. But you know.



The Road Not Taken

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.

 Robert Frost
1874-1963, written in 1916



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 16:55:26 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 12:55:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=damb_YGTr+c-ZwnSc3p0d1T4E-fts6+mFxS_-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=damb_YGTr+c-ZwnSc3p0d1T4E-fts6+mFxS_-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimNnQR5x20T2tvhJ_FN7-V11-RaA6vHRtojv9u5@mail.gmail.com>

*Completely unrelated, Bill, to your post ending with The Road Not Taken.
But it reminded me of this one, which was my favorite Frost poem for a few
years in high school. It was just bitchy enough for an adolescent malcreant
.

A Considerable Speck*

User Rating:

7.2 /10
(39 votes)



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 (Microscopic)

A speck that would have been beneath my sight
On any but a paper sheet so white
Set off across what I had written there.
And I had idly poised my pen in air
To stop it with a period of ink
When something strange about it made me think,
This was no dust speck by my breathing blown,
But unmistakably a living mite
With inclinations it could call its own.
It paused as with suspicion of my pen,
And then came racing wildly on again
To where my manuscript was not yet dry;
Then paused again and either drank or smelt--
With loathing, for again it turned to fly.
Plainly with an intelligence I dealt.
It seemed too tiny to have room for feet,
Yet must have had a set of them complete
To express how much it didn't want to die.
It ran with terror and with cunning crept.
It faltered: I could see it hesitate;
Then in the middle of the open sheet
Cower down in desperation to accept
Whatever I accorded it of fate.
I have none of the tenderer-than-thou
Collectivistic regimenting love
With which the modern world is being swept.
But this poor microscopic item now!
Since it was nothing I knew evil of
I let it lie there till I hope it slept.

I have a mind myself and recognize
Mind when I meet with it in any guise
No one can know how glad I am to find
On any sheet the least display of mind.

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:37 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 3:16 AM, spike wrote:
> > Here's what I want from you guys: think carefully and hard, the way I
> know
> > you can.  Think of all the *unintended consequences* of Julian Assanges
> > work, both good and bad.  The notion of good and bad doesn't necessarily
> > collapse down to one number positive or negative; it is too complex for
> > that.  So let it be a complex number, with a real good/evil axis and an
> > imaginary good/evil axis if you wish, or multiple categories or
> > circumstances.
> >
> >
>
> As Darren wrote, everything you do has unintended consequences.
> Fortunately some results are good as well as bad. So sometimes things
> turn out better than expected, rather than worse than expected. Life's
> like that. So enjoy the good outcomes, just as you have to suffer the
> bad outcomes.
> (Even though being 'unexpected', neither is really down to your decision).
> :)
>
> What is much more subtle is *not* doing something.  You anticipate
> something bad coming, but do nothing to stop or divert it. You can't
> be publicly blamed, because nobody else saw it coming and nobody knows
> of your insight. But you know.
>
>
>
> The Road Not Taken
>
> Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
> And sorry I could not travel both
> And be one traveler, long I stood
> And looked down one as far as I could
> To where it bent in the undergrowth;
> Then took the other, as just as fair,
> And having perhaps the better claim,
> Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
> Though as for that the passing there
> Had worn them really about the same,
> And both that morning equally lay
> In leaves no step had trodden black.
> Oh, I kept the first for another day!
> Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
> I doubted if I should ever come back.
> I shall be telling this with a sigh
> Somewhere ages and ages hence:
> Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?
>    I took the one less traveled by,
>    And that has made all the difference.
>
>  Robert Frost
> 1874-1963, written in 1916
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 22:06:54 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:06:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 8:16 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

"Here's what I want from you guys: think carefully and hard, the way I
know you can.  Think of all the *unintended consequences* of Julian
Assanges work..."

I'm flippin' loving it!   David Brin's predictions of ten or so years
back are emerging into the mainstream, crackling with electric
excitement, even as we speak.    Where shall I start?

Irony, ya, huge promontories of it, sliding over the old paradigm
landscape like a Venezuelan mudslide.  The folks who just spent the
last ten years reading everyone else's mail, hiring corrupt lawyers to
manufacture legality out of whole cloth, wiping their backsides with
the Constitution, and saying they would do it no matter what the law
says.  These same folks are all tweaked and outraged now that we are
reading their mail.  Sweet, oh so sweet!

But here's the thing (or one of a multitude of things): IT"S NOT THEIR
MAIL.  It's our mail. This is why the protests about govt's need -- or
as those who conflate and compare it with and the individual's
"right" -- to privacy fail the logic test.

The Govt's business is the people's business.  The Govt does its thing
in the people's name and with the people picking up the fiscal, moral,
and geopolitical tab.  The state operates (not really, but it's sorta
supposed to) with" the consent of the governed", on behalf of the
governed. We are (supposed to be) citizens, not subjects.  We are
(supposed to be) the govt's bosses not the other way round.  So, in
fact, they not only have insisted on trashing our rights to privacy by
reading our private mail, but then they say we can't read our "public
mail", the record of what's being done in our name.

Not no more.  Thank you, Julian.  (And thank you Shockley, DARPA,
Billy G, et al).

In a different vein, consider the entertainment value.  We have
incredibly excellent heroes, deliciously malign villains, and --
blessed be those monkeys at their typewriters -- hot, endlessly
complicated sex.  Oh my!  I think I need some private time.

An excerpt from ""The Hand of God, the Gland of Man: The Trial of
Julian Assange",  Act 6, scene 23:

Attorney for the defense(AFTD) Ingrid Pornquist (played by Merril
Streep) continues:

So, Miss Arden...

Arden (played by Katherine Heigl): That's "Ms" Arden if you please...

AFTD:  Ms. Arden, on the night in question, following dinner,...How
was that by the way?  Did he pay, did you pay, was it Dutch?

Arden:  He paid, with cash, the security thing, you know.  I had the
scallops...yummy.. he had oyster cakes.  He's not a big eater.  He
would cut the cakes with his fork and lean over and give me a
bite...(she leaps to her feet, looks toward JA at the defense table,
who smiles and winks his support, and declares) I love you Julian!  I
never meant it to turn out this way. Please forgive me!

(The courtroom, packed with tall Swedish blondes of every gender
preference, explodes with shrieks -- "Stay away from him, you slyna,
he's mine!" -- and tumult )

Judge BIrgitta Prodsdottir (played by Queen Latifa): Order! (bangs her
gavel) Order in the court!  (courtroom quiets down)

Ms. Arden (in tears): ... just because he paid doesn't mean...

AFTD: Yes, yes, we're all feminists here.  Look at me.  I'm a grown up
attorney, and everything.  So he paid for dinner, but couldn't expect
to get lucky on that account.  All the same, you wasted no time in
jumping his bones, did you?

AFTP Loni Anderthaler(played by Sarah Palin, her hair dyed blonde) :
Objection!  Badgering the witness, your Honor.  I can see Russia from
here! (the courtroom is momentarily silent, puzzled.  Co-counsel
(played by a blonde Tina Fey) leans toward Palin and whispers in her
ear.)  I can see Finland from here!

 Judge Prodsdottir(somewhat disoriented):  Sustained.  Speed it up
will you, Ms. Pornquist, and please confine yourself to the
juicier,... strike that... to matters of relevance.

AFTD Pornquist:  Yes, your honor.  Of course, your honor.  (Turning
back to Arden).   So, you had a romantic dinner then?

Arden: Yes.

AFTD Pornquist: And afterwards a movie, yes?  "The Girl with the
Dragon Tattoo"?

Arden: Yes.

AFTD Pornquist: Was it a good movie?

Arden: Yes.

AFTD Pornquist:  A smart movie?

Arden: Avery smart movie?

AFTD Pornquist:  About a sexually abused young woman who teams up with
an investigative reporter to track down a serial rapist and murderer
of young women.   And in the climactic scene, the young woman pursues
and burns to death the raping murdering monster, yes?

Arden:  No, no, that's not right.  She doesn't kill him.

AFTD Pornquist: Oh, I apologize.  My mistake.  She merely pursues him
on her motorcycle at high speed until he crashes, yes?  Then she
stands by as he begs for help, severely injured, helpless in the
crashed vehicle, drenched in gasoline, until the inevitable happens,
fire erupts and he burns to death screaming, yes?  Just as a flashback
shows she did years earlier when she threw gasoline on the abuser of
her youth, and then a match to set him
 ablaze? Yes?  Isn't that the "chick flick" you took Julian Assange to
see/  A film about feminist revenge and murder?

Arden: Yes, yes, yes.  So what?

AFTD Pornquist: And during this movie about lethal flaming feminist
revenge, you sat in the back of the theater with Julian Assange and
had every kind of sex you could have without actually laying down on
the butter and cum- soiled floor?

(Massive disruption in the courtroom, everyone shouting, screaming,
shrieking, ranting, fainting. etc)

Judge Prodsdottir (rises, shouting, pounding gavel): Order!  Order!
Silence!  Bailiff!

AFTP Anderthaler(simultaneous with commotion, and as it tails off):
Objection objection objection, your honor.  This poor woman should not
be persecuted for her robust sexual expression or her talent for
multi-tasking.

Judge Prodsdottir: Objection overruled, Ms. Arden answer the question.

Arden:  Well, not EVERY kind.

(Crowd roars again, then fades out in giggles.  Judge raises gavel as
silence descends.)

 AFTD Pornquist: But was it good, and I suppose more to the point,
was it consensual?

Arden: Yes.  (A thoughtful pause)  It was consensual.

AFTD Pornquist: And...

Arden: It was consensual.

Julian Assange (dryly, with a slight smile): It was good for me.

Judge Prodsdottir: You're not helping your case, Mr Assange.  Counsel,
please keep you client under control.

AFTD Pornquist: Yes, your honor.  At this time I would like to submit
into evidence as exhibits P and Q this pair of culots worn by Ms Arden
on the August evening in question, and this forensics report which
shows, despite subsequent laundering, substantial traces remaining, on
both knees, of buttery-flavored vegetable oil staining.

(Momentary disruption of courtroom abruptly silenced by wicked stare
from "the bench")

Judge Prodsdottir: Counsel...

AFTD Pornquist: Your honor,... Now Ms. Arden.  After this sexual
preamble, which we take it warmed you up, but didn't ring your bell,
(suppressed chuckles from courtroom, stern look from bench), you and
Mr. Assange proceeded back to your apartment for the condom-equipped
main event, isn't that so?

Arden: Yes.

AFTD Pornquist: Let's skip over the lurid details (brief roar of
disapproval from the crowd) and cut to the chase, shall we?

Arden: Please.

AFTD Pornquist: Who supplied the condom?

Arden (hesitates, wary): I er, ...I don't remember.

AFTD Pornquist: You don't remember!!!  Well, perhaps this video from
the security camera at your premises, obtained and provided to us by
the whistle-blowing organization Sneakyleaks, will refresh your
memory.  Or perhaps this plethismo-cam video obtained from disgruntled
CIA operatives and transmitted to the defense through the
whistle-blowing organization Dickyleaks, will help you to recall.

Arden (stunned):  Yes, yes, I supplied the condom.  So what?  He's
Australian.  They surf; they wrestle crocodiles; they're real men.
They don't wear condoms, and they don't carry them around with them,
the pigs.  I wanted to bag him, so what? That's no crime.  He's tall,
heroic, over-the-top intelligent; every women on the planet wants him,
even the right-wing skanks who won't admit it.  They all want him.
But I'm the one who got him.  Me.  He's mine.  He loves me.  Not that
dipstick barbie wannabe Wilen.  (Rises, shouting at Assange)I love
you, Julian.  No one else loves you like I do.  If I can't have you no
one can.  I'm better than them.  (Breaks down sobbing.  Assange slides
down in his chair.  The courtroom is hushed.

AFTD Pornquist: Magnificent.  What a marvelous actress you are,
Anna,...if that is your real name.  But we both know it's a show don't
we?

Arden (still sobbing):  I don't know what you mean,  I love him,
(trails off) I love him.

AFTD Pornquist: You supplied the condom.  And it broke.  How sad; how
tragic; how inconvenient!  Or maybe not.  What became of the condom in
question, Ms Arden?, if that is your name?

Arden (sobbing softly and unconvincingly):  Uh, I don't know, uh threw
it away, I don't know where it is. No one saves old condoms.  It's
gone.

AFTD Pornquist: Would you care to explain to me then this CIA report
-- Your honor, I'd like to submit this into evidence as exhibit R --
provided to us by the whistle-blowing organization Cheekyleaks,
documenting the cryogenic storage of a semen sample whose source is
listed as one Assange, Julian, with date of acquisition shown as the
day following your assignation with Mr. Assange?

Arden (confused disoriented):  I,...I,... don't understand.

AFTD Pornquist: No, Well perhaps you could explain this?  (holds up
small olive green packet, then as everyone watches tears open the
packet to reveal what appears to be...)  Looks like a standard Profil
condom, Sweden's most popular brand, doesn't it Ms Arden?  We found it
at your residence, along with the rest of your gear.  But this olive
green wrapper -- Profils don't usually come wrapped like this --
what's this all about?  Perhaps Ms. Arden, you'd like to read for the
court  what's on the wrapper.  (Hands wrapper to Arden.)

Arden (sits sullenly)

AFTD Pornquist: Okay then, allow me.  It says, "Ordnance, Sheath,
prophylactic, sexual, self-failing, timed, duration 180 secs
post-penetration, Mk 3 mod 1."  Code name" Onan's Surprise".  Then
there are a bunch of numbers, mil-spec identification number, contract
number, lot number, and a psy-ops command inventory identifier.

Time to give it up, Anna.  You're busted.

                  ****************************

I could go one damn near forever, but you get the point, and I've
"wasted" most of the day working on this.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "During times of universal deceit, telling the
   truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                   George Orwell


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec 16 22:59:57 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:59:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
 address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D0A99ED.8080605@satx.rr.com>

Great stuff, Jeff! The hilarious inside truth. And spot-on casting!

Damien Broderick


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 16 23:20:20 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:20:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>

>"Here's what I want from you guys: think carefully and hard, the way I
know you can.  Think of all the *unintended consequences* of Julian
Assanges work..."<

The most unintended consequence, if it really was so, is that the leaks will
eventually work in the government's favour. Keith compared Assange to Daniel
Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers and the comparison is valid. With a major
exception: people actually cared at that time what was in those those
papers. The supreme court eventually ruled in favour of the New York Times
by saying they were protected under the first amendment because the American
people had been deliberately mislead about the war and the papers proved it.
The American people had a right to know. So tied up with the first amendment
ruling and the national security discussion was also a discussion about the
content of the documents and the duplicity of the Johnston/Kennedy/Truman
administrations when they manipulated and tricked a naive public into
supporting an unwinnable war.

Not the case here. So many documents released. So many revelations. So many
objectionable acts and policies and secret dealings and lies. Revelations
not about one war but two. State-sanctioned pedophilia. Drug trafficking.
Mass killings and torture. Machiavellian tinkering with the democratic
processes of other nations. Cover-ups of collateral killings. Spying on the
U.N. for pete's sake? Anyone one of these would have been enough to shake
the foundations of a government in the past. Yet if you decide to pillory
the government on just one of them, you have to admit that they're guilty of
all of them. What these papers reveal is that the whole system is so
hopelessly corrupt and devoid of ethics that, short of revolution, people
are powerless to do anything about it. And so it turns to into a privacy
discussion for lack of any else to do or say. If they can divert disaster
with this one, governments can operate with near unlimited freedom in
future.

If I had any doubt about this, it disappeared when I started checking public
opinion polls. The majority of people interviewed in a poll in the U.S. over
the August Afghanistan leaks think that governments should be allowed to
keep secrets and we should do just keep quiet and support them.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/08/03/poll-more-americans-view-afghan-war-docs-leak-as-harmful/

In another more recent on-going poll on MSNBC, slightly under 50 percent
think Wikileaks should be declared a terrorist organization.

http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/11/poll-is-wikileaks-terrorist.html


The 'net is full of such polls and freedom of speech and the 1st amendment
lose overtime. For a country that has always had libertarian leanings, this
seems like a very large concession to the power and scope and influence of
big government.  And it's not just the U.S. The trend is the same
practically everywhere.

On top of it. Assange is claiming to be holding something back that would be
like a political nuclear bomb should it be dropped. He will do so, he says,
in the event of his death or disappearance. If he really wanted to affect a
change, he should have just dropped that and held on to the rest. Give
people just one representative issue to focus on, rather than just a
fruitless debate over process and privacy, which as far as I can see, is
what this has become.

Sorry if I seem a bit cynical. I'm putting up Christmas decorations and I'm
trying to get in the mood. :)

Darren



On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 8:16 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> "Here's what I want from you guys: think carefully and hard, the way I
> know you can.  Think of all the *unintended consequences* of Julian
> Assanges work..."
>
> I'm flippin' loving it!   David Brin's predictions of ten or so years
> back are emerging into the mainstream, crackling with electric
> excitement, even as we speak.    Where shall I start?
>
> Irony, ya, huge promontories of it, sliding over the old paradigm
> landscape like a Venezuelan mudslide.  The folks who just spent the
> last ten years reading everyone else's mail, hiring corrupt lawyers to
> manufacture legality out of whole cloth, wiping their backsides with
> the Constitution, and saying they would do it no matter what the law
> says.  These same folks are all tweaked and outraged now that we are
> reading their mail.  Sweet, oh so sweet!
>
> But here's the thing (or one of a multitude of things): IT"S NOT THEIR
> MAIL.  It's our mail. This is why the protests about govt's need -- or
> as those who conflate and compare it with and the individual's
> "right" -- to privacy fail the logic test.
>
> The Govt's business is the people's business.  The Govt does its thing
> in the people's name and with the people picking up the fiscal, moral,
> and geopolitical tab.  The state operates (not really, but it's sorta
> supposed to) with" the consent of the governed", on behalf of the
> governed. We are (supposed to be) citizens, not subjects.  We are
> (supposed to be) the govt's bosses not the other way round.  So, in
> fact, they not only have insisted on trashing our rights to privacy by
> reading our private mail, but then they say we can't read our "public
> mail", the record of what's being done in our name.
>
> Not no more.  Thank you, Julian.  (And thank you Shockley, DARPA,
> Billy G, et al).
>
> In a different vein, consider the entertainment value.  We have
> incredibly excellent heroes, deliciously malign villains, and --
> blessed be those monkeys at their typewriters -- hot, endlessly
> complicated sex.  Oh my!  I think I need some private time.
>
> An excerpt from ""The Hand of God, the Gland of Man: The Trial of
> Julian Assange",  Act 6, scene 23:
>
> Attorney for the defense(AFTD) Ingrid Pornquist (played by Merril
> Streep) continues:
>
> So, Miss Arden...
>
> Arden (played by Katherine Heigl): That's "Ms" Arden if you please...
>
> AFTD:  Ms. Arden, on the night in question, following dinner,...How
> was that by the way?  Did he pay, did you pay, was it Dutch?
>
> Arden:  He paid, with cash, the security thing, you know.  I had the
> scallops...yummy.. he had oyster cakes.  He's not a big eater.  He
> would cut the cakes with his fork and lean over and give me a
> bite...(she leaps to her feet, looks toward JA at the defense table,
> who smiles and winks his support, and declares) I love you Julian!  I
> never meant it to turn out this way. Please forgive me!
>
> (The courtroom, packed with tall Swedish blondes of every gender
> preference, explodes with shrieks -- "Stay away from him, you slyna,
> he's mine!" -- and tumult )
>
> Judge BIrgitta Prodsdottir (played by Queen Latifa): Order! (bangs her
> gavel) Order in the court!  (courtroom quiets down)
>
> Ms. Arden (in tears): ... just because he paid doesn't mean...
>
> AFTD: Yes, yes, we're all feminists here.  Look at me.  I'm a grown up
> attorney, and everything.  So he paid for dinner, but couldn't expect
> to get lucky on that account.  All the same, you wasted no time in
> jumping his bones, did you?
>
> AFTP Loni Anderthaler(played by Sarah Palin, her hair dyed blonde) :
> Objection!  Badgering the witness, your Honor.  I can see Russia from
> here! (the courtroom is momentarily silent, puzzled.  Co-counsel
> (played by a blonde Tina Fey) leans toward Palin and whispers in her
> ear.)  I can see Finland from here!
>
>  Judge Prodsdottir(somewhat disoriented):  Sustained.  Speed it up
> will you, Ms. Pornquist, and please confine yourself to the
> juicier,... strike that... to matters of relevance.
>
> AFTD Pornquist:  Yes, your honor.  Of course, your honor.  (Turning
> back to Arden).   So, you had a romantic dinner then?
>
> Arden: Yes.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: And afterwards a movie, yes?  "The Girl with the
> Dragon Tattoo"?
>
> Arden: Yes.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Was it a good movie?
>
> Arden: Yes.
>
> AFTD Pornquist:  A smart movie?
>
> Arden: Avery smart movie?
>
> AFTD Pornquist:  About a sexually abused young woman who teams up with
> an investigative reporter to track down a serial rapist and murderer
> of young women.   And in the climactic scene, the young woman pursues
> and burns to death the raping murdering monster, yes?
>
> Arden:  No, no, that's not right.  She doesn't kill him.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Oh, I apologize.  My mistake.  She merely pursues him
> on her motorcycle at high speed until he crashes, yes?  Then she
> stands by as he begs for help, severely injured, helpless in the
> crashed vehicle, drenched in gasoline, until the inevitable happens,
> fire erupts and he burns to death screaming, yes?  Just as a flashback
> shows she did years earlier when she threw gasoline on the abuser of
> her youth, and then a match to set him
>  ablaze? Yes?  Isn't that the "chick flick" you took Julian Assange to
> see/  A film about feminist revenge and murder?
>
> Arden: Yes, yes, yes.  So what?
>
> AFTD Pornquist: And during this movie about lethal flaming feminist
> revenge, you sat in the back of the theater with Julian Assange and
> had every kind of sex you could have without actually laying down on
> the butter and cum- soiled floor?
>
> (Massive disruption in the courtroom, everyone shouting, screaming,
> shrieking, ranting, fainting. etc)
>
> Judge Prodsdottir (rises, shouting, pounding gavel): Order!  Order!
> Silence!  Bailiff!
>
> AFTP Anderthaler(simultaneous with commotion, and as it tails off):
> Objection objection objection, your honor.  This poor woman should not
> be persecuted for her robust sexual expression or her talent for
> multi-tasking.
>
> Judge Prodsdottir: Objection overruled, Ms. Arden answer the question.
>
> Arden:  Well, not EVERY kind.
>
> (Crowd roars again, then fades out in giggles.  Judge raises gavel as
> silence descends.)
>
>  AFTD Pornquist: But was it good, and I suppose more to the point,
> was it consensual?
>
> Arden: Yes.  (A thoughtful pause)  It was consensual.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: And...
>
> Arden: It was consensual.
>
> Julian Assange (dryly, with a slight smile): It was good for me.
>
> Judge Prodsdottir: You're not helping your case, Mr Assange.  Counsel,
> please keep you client under control.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Yes, your honor.  At this time I would like to submit
> into evidence as exhibits P and Q this pair of culots worn by Ms Arden
> on the August evening in question, and this forensics report which
> shows, despite subsequent laundering, substantial traces remaining, on
> both knees, of buttery-flavored vegetable oil staining.
>
> (Momentary disruption of courtroom abruptly silenced by wicked stare
> from "the bench")
>
> Judge Prodsdottir: Counsel...
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Your honor,... Now Ms. Arden.  After this sexual
> preamble, which we take it warmed you up, but didn't ring your bell,
> (suppressed chuckles from courtroom, stern look from bench), you and
> Mr. Assange proceeded back to your apartment for the condom-equipped
> main event, isn't that so?
>
> Arden: Yes.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Let's skip over the lurid details (brief roar of
> disapproval from the crowd) and cut to the chase, shall we?
>
> Arden: Please.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Who supplied the condom?
>
> Arden (hesitates, wary): I er, ...I don't remember.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: You don't remember!!!  Well, perhaps this video from
> the security camera at your premises, obtained and provided to us by
> the whistle-blowing organization Sneakyleaks, will refresh your
> memory.  Or perhaps this plethismo-cam video obtained from disgruntled
> CIA operatives and transmitted to the defense through the
> whistle-blowing organization Dickyleaks, will help you to recall.
>
> Arden (stunned):  Yes, yes, I supplied the condom.  So what?  He's
> Australian.  They surf; they wrestle crocodiles; they're real men.
> They don't wear condoms, and they don't carry them around with them,
> the pigs.  I wanted to bag him, so what? That's no crime.  He's tall,
> heroic, over-the-top intelligent; every women on the planet wants him,
> even the right-wing skanks who won't admit it.  They all want him.
> But I'm the one who got him.  Me.  He's mine.  He loves me.  Not that
> dipstick barbie wannabe Wilen.  (Rises, shouting at Assange)I love
> you, Julian.  No one else loves you like I do.  If I can't have you no
> one can.  I'm better than them.  (Breaks down sobbing.  Assange slides
> down in his chair.  The courtroom is hushed.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Magnificent.  What a marvelous actress you are,
> Anna,...if that is your real name.  But we both know it's a show don't
> we?
>
> Arden (still sobbing):  I don't know what you mean,  I love him,
> (trails off) I love him.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: You supplied the condom.  And it broke.  How sad; how
> tragic; how inconvenient!  Or maybe not.  What became of the condom in
> question, Ms Arden?, if that is your name?
>
> Arden (sobbing softly and unconvincingly):  Uh, I don't know, uh threw
> it away, I don't know where it is. No one saves old condoms.  It's
> gone.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Would you care to explain to me then this CIA report
> -- Your honor, I'd like to submit this into evidence as exhibit R --
> provided to us by the whistle-blowing organization Cheekyleaks,
> documenting the cryogenic storage of a semen sample whose source is
> listed as one Assange, Julian, with date of acquisition shown as the
> day following your assignation with Mr. Assange?
>
> Arden (confused disoriented):  I,...I,... don't understand.
>
> AFTD Pornquist: No, Well perhaps you could explain this?  (holds up
> small olive green packet, then as everyone watches tears open the
> packet to reveal what appears to be...)  Looks like a standard Profil
> condom, Sweden's most popular brand, doesn't it Ms Arden?  We found it
> at your residence, along with the rest of your gear.  But this olive
> green wrapper -- Profils don't usually come wrapped like this --
> what's this all about?  Perhaps Ms. Arden, you'd like to read for the
> court  what's on the wrapper.  (Hands wrapper to Arden.)
>
> Arden (sits sullenly)
>
> AFTD Pornquist: Okay then, allow me.  It says, "Ordnance, Sheath,
> prophylactic, sexual, self-failing, timed, duration 180 secs
> post-penetration, Mk 3 mod 1."  Code name" Onan's Surprise".  Then
> there are a bunch of numbers, mil-spec identification number, contract
> number, lot number, and a psy-ops command inventory identifier.
>
> Time to give it up, Anna.  You're busted.
>
>                  ****************************
>
> I could go one damn near forever, but you get the point, and I've
> "wasted" most of the day working on this.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>  "During times of universal deceit, telling the
>   truth becomes a revolutionary act."
>                   George Orwell
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Dec 16 23:22:37 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 18:22:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The history of spaceflight
Message-ID: <201012170034.oBH0YpJ5017169@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Cool bit of visualization. Reminds me of Tufte --

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2445/4002050596_0c2b6c4dd2_o.jpg


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Dec 17 00:54:17 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 18:54:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] PSI, PSI*, and Psi
In-Reply-To: <958396.51628.qm@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <958396.51628.qm@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D0AB4B9.7020307@satx.rr.com>

On 12/10/2010 6:22 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> TI is new to me, I ran across a reference to it while I was googling on
> retrocasuality.

Have a look at this, which is somewhat related:

<http://boundary.org/bi/articles/Physics_without_Causality.pdf>


<It is proposed and argued below that 1) measurement is unitary 
evolution when
properly considered as a three-way interaction, and thus 2) there is no 
barrier due to
measurement to reversibility or backward influence, and further 3) there 
is no
fundamental randomness generated by measurement.

Ultimately, it will be beneficial to give up the deeply held assumption of
unidirectional) cause-and-effect, and rely on the more general notions 
of dependence
and influence. If relinquishing cause and effect is too unsettling or 
painful, we can at
least think in terms of bi-directional cause. We will take both views 
interchangeably.
Several interpretations of quantum mechanics have a truly bi-directional 
structure,
most notably the Transactional Interpretation (TI) of Cramer [1]. The TI 
does not rule
out retrocausal signaling, and in fact asserts that influence is ?a 
two-way street?, where
the future to some degree determines the past as well as vice-versa. 
However, the TI
does include some fundamental randomness in that there may be a 
stochastic choice
made among several potential absorbers for a given emitter transaction.>

etc etc


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 02:05:23 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:05:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>

First, let me say Darren, that I appreciate your participation here,
and though we may at times disagree, that's a good thing.  It provokes
a spirited discourse and keeps us all on our toes.

Olive branch.  Not personal.

I say this because the last time we disagreed, I was fierce and as is
sometimes the case, harsh.  But I've calmed down and gotten over it.
Welcome.  Merry Christmas, and I've got your back.

Best, Jeff Davis

"Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption
        of power. You lose your taste for it when you
             realize how hard people try, how much they
                    mind, and how long they remember."
                                            Martin Amis

...now to substance


2010/12/16 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>:
> What these papers reveal is that the whole system is so
> hopelessly corrupt and devoid of ethics that, short of revolution,
> people are powerless to do anything about it.

I'm torn.  Cynicism is a kind of drug for easing the discomfort of
despair and seeming-powerlessness .  I'm a regular user.  It helps me
feel better but never persuades.  The anger always rises again.
Consider the old saying, "Know the truth and the truth shall set you
free."  Well, yes and no.  No, in the sense that it's only the first
step.  Grabbing the liars by the scruff of the neck, and holding them
accountable, well that might be the more difficult part of the
truth-leads-to-freedom process.

When the anger returns, I have the energy to imagine a way out short
of revolution.  Currently, I still see a way out.  Maybe it's a false
hope, maybe not.

Anyway, it's the holiday season, so save your cynicism for after the
new congress is convened in January.  That's the season of despair.

                     <snip>

> If I had any doubt about this, it disappeared when I started checking public
> opinion polls. The majority of people interviewed in a poll in the U.S. over
> the August Afghanistan leaks think that governments should be allowed to
> keep secrets and we should do just keep quiet and support them.
> http://www.aolnews.com/2010/08/03/poll-more-americans-view-afghan-war-docs-leak-as-harmful/

AOL is as MSM as you can get.  No credibility there.  And take a look
at the comments section following that article.  Nine of ten of the
respondents are emphatic in their contempt for the poll results.  They
think it's a crock.  Which "poll" ya gonna believe?

> In another more recent on-going poll on MSNBC,
> slightly under 50 percent
> think Wikileaks should be declared a terrorist organization.
> http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/11/poll-is-wikileaks-terrorist.html

I took a look at that poll.  Incredible.  They ask if Wikileaks is a
terrorist organization, and then they give the argument in support of
that contention, and THEN they ask what the reader thinks.  And they
still couldn't get a majority to say yes.

I must confess however that the recent characterization of Wikileaks
and Assange as "terrorists" is quite scary to me.  Because it
resonates.  Falsely.  But resonates nevertheless, I suppose because
the right has used "terrorist" so widely and loosely tha tnow, anyone
or anything in active opposition to US Govt authority -- dissent,
activism, independent journalism --is a candidate for the label, and
the consequences.  But even the MSM is now pushing back against that.

Anyway, don't give up hope just yet.  I'm still betting that the tech
wizardry that has given us the internet and changed the world, will
lead us to a solution.

<snip>

> Sorry if I seem a bit cynical. I'm putting up Christmas decorations and I'm trying to get in the mood. :)

Meeeeeeeeerry Christmas, ho ho ho.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "And I think to myself, what a wonderful world!"
                  Louie Armstrong


From listsb at infinitefaculty.org  Fri Dec 17 02:19:50 2010
From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 21:19:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
 address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D0AC8C6.6070808@infinitefaculty.org>


El 2010-12-16 17:06, Jeff Davis escribi?:

[Riotous one-act play snipped.]

> I could go one damn near forever, but you get the point, and I've
> "wasted" most of the day working on this.

Scare quotes indeed: You wrote and published (really, sending something 
to an email list should count as having published) a delightful one-act 
play -- not wasted time, on the contrary: good work, and thanks!

Brian



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 03:12:08 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 23:12:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>

Jeff wrote:

>I must confess however that the recent characterization of Wikileaks
and Assange as "terrorists" is quite scary to me.<

My favorite history book in the world is Berlin Diary, by William Shirer.
He's a terrific writer, but it really gave me an inside look at how
totalitarian governments propagandize their own citizens. The endless
bullshitting and specious reasoning and outlandish justifications. Whenever
Hitler invaded a new country the Nazi propaganda machine always said that a
certain segment of the population in the target country were
being oppressed and that they were in fact not oppressors
themselves blithely goose-stepping their way into foreign territory but
rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact that
some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you suggest,
you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very much
of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.

I once belonged to a list like this one only for members of the Writer's
Union of Canada. I had to withdraw, because I once compared Bush to Hitler
and people on the list were outraged ( that and the fact that many of them
said that writers shouldn't be political, which I've always thought was a
crock.)  I wasn't given the opportunity to explain that though Bush
obviously didn't start a holocaust or have a night of the long knives, some
the language and the tactics employed to keep people scared and confused and
loyal to the political cause during his first term after the 2001 attacks
also reminded me a lot of what Shirer described as taking place in Germany
in the 30's.

>When the anger returns, I have the energy to imagine a way out short
of revolution.  Currently, I still see a way out.  Maybe it's a false
hope, maybe not.<

I've got my eye on this Wikileaks thing closely. People always think that
what happened fifty years ago could never happen again. We're so much more
civilized. Maybe not to that degree, but we are still as a species capable
of a lot of deadly nonsense. World War II was what? Three or four
generations ago?  The single largest event in the history of mankind and
fifty-two million people murdered just three generations ago out of forty
thousand generations total. Not a promising arc.  So when I look at things
from that perspective I do get a little cynical. But as a rule I try to keep
the faith. I was tear-gassed in Quebec City and assaulted in Durban South
Africa during protests, and was probably ineffective in what I set out to
do. But I'm still glad I did those things. And I would do them again.

>I say this because the last time we disagreed, I was fierce and as is
sometimes the case, harsh.<

Don't even recall it. I'll have to search my archives and revive my outrage.
Meantime, have a Merry Christmas yourself. I don't believe that Jesus was
anything more than a man, but I know Santa Claus is real. I have the proof:
dozens of toys that he gave me when I was a kid that I still have. My
favourite is a plastic wind-up r2d2 that sits on my mantle. :)

Darren



On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> First, let me say Darren, that I appreciate your participation here,
> and though we may at times disagree, that's a good thing.  It provokes
> a spirited discourse and keeps us all on our toes.
>
> Olive branch.  Not personal.
>
> I say this because the last time we disagreed, I was fierce and as is
> sometimes the case, harsh.  But I've calmed down and gotten over it.
> Welcome.  Merry Christmas, and I've got your back.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
> "Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption
>        of power. You lose your taste for it when you
>             realize how hard people try, how much they
>                    mind, and how long they remember."
>                                            Martin Amis
>
> ...now to substance
>
>
> 2010/12/16 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>:
> > What these papers reveal is that the whole system is so
> > hopelessly corrupt and devoid of ethics that, short of revolution,
> > people are powerless to do anything about it.
>
> I'm torn.  Cynicism is a kind of drug for easing the discomfort of
> despair and seeming-powerlessness .  I'm a regular user.  It helps me
> feel better but never persuades.  The anger always rises again.
> Consider the old saying, "Know the truth and the truth shall set you
> free."  Well, yes and no.  No, in the sense that it's only the first
> step.  Grabbing the liars by the scruff of the neck, and holding them
> accountable, well that might be the more difficult part of the
> truth-leads-to-freedom process.
>
> When the anger returns, I have the energy to imagine a way out short
> of revolution.  Currently, I still see a way out.  Maybe it's a false
> hope, maybe not.
>
> Anyway, it's the holiday season, so save your cynicism for after the
> new congress is convened in January.  That's the season of despair.
>
>                     <snip>
>
> > If I had any doubt about this, it disappeared when I started checking
> public
> > opinion polls. The majority of people interviewed in a poll in the U.S.
> over
> > the August Afghanistan leaks think that governments should be allowed to
> > keep secrets and we should do just keep quiet and support them.
> >
> http://www.aolnews.com/2010/08/03/poll-more-americans-view-afghan-war-docs-leak-as-harmful/
>
> AOL is as MSM as you can get.  No credibility there.  And take a look
> at the comments section following that article.  Nine of ten of the
> respondents are emphatic in their contempt for the poll results.  They
> think it's a crock.  Which "poll" ya gonna believe?
>
> > In another more recent on-going poll on MSNBC,
> > slightly under 50 percent
> > think Wikileaks should be declared a terrorist organization.
> >
> http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/11/poll-is-wikileaks-terrorist.html
>
> I took a look at that poll.  Incredible.  They ask if Wikileaks is a
> terrorist organization, and then they give the argument in support of
> that contention, and THEN they ask what the reader thinks.  And they
> still couldn't get a majority to say yes.
>
> I must confess however that the recent characterization of Wikileaks
> and Assange as "terrorists" is quite scary to me.  Because it
> resonates.  Falsely.  But resonates nevertheless, I suppose because
> the right has used "terrorist" so widely and loosely tha tnow, anyone
> or anything in active opposition to US Govt authority -- dissent,
> activism, independent journalism --is a candidate for the label, and
> the consequences.  But even the MSM is now pushing back against that.
>
> Anyway, don't give up hope just yet.  I'm still betting that the tech
> wizardry that has given us the internet and changed the world, will
> lead us to a solution.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Sorry if I seem a bit cynical. I'm putting up Christmas decorations and
> I'm trying to get in the mood. :)
>
> Meeeeeeeeerry Christmas, ho ho ho.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>  "And I think to myself, what a wonderful world!"
>                  Louie Armstrong
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
Remembrance of the Daleks
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 03:56:30 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 23:56:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Owner of gay bookstore gets second letter from Jesus
Message-ID: <AANLkTikKBKQFR6iMbybTQpDfi3sCr9y3gauri+3MTu=K@mail.gmail.com>

This guy is a friend of mine. Funny.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Ottawa/Gay_stores_get_second_letter_from_Jesus-9566.aspx

-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Dec 17 04:29:16 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 05:29:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Owner of gay bookstore gets second letter from Jesus
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikKBKQFR6iMbybTQpDfi3sCr9y3gauri+3MTu=K@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikKBKQFR6iMbybTQpDfi3sCr9y3gauri+3MTu=K@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012170516570.17689@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Darren Greer wrote:

> This guy is a friend of mine. Funny.
> 
> http://www.xtra.ca/public/Ottawa/Gay_stores_get_second_letter_from_Jesus-9566.aspx

Whoa, big deal... When I was a student, I received email from pope, urging 
me to leave workstation and let other students use it. Even our 
then-president wrote to me, promising lucrative research positions if only 
I forget about toying with SunOS ( -> a kind of Unix -> proto Linux OS). 
But I admit it, in my case Jesus didn't step down to terminal (am I 
jealous a bit? no, of course not...). This man must have something 
important in his shop. Gold member?

Regards and Merry Christmas
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From scerir at alice.it  Fri Dec 17 07:28:22 2010
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:28:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] PSI, PSI*, and Psi
In-Reply-To: <4D0AB4B9.7020307@satx.rr.com>
References: <958396.51628.qm@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4D0AB4B9.7020307@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <585B84C73FB346A8A9064041D5FA63AC@PCserafino>

A. Elitzur wrote more than one deep review about TI and related
stuff, like IFM, time, block universe and indeterminism, etc.. 
Very interesting. I'd suggest to start from the first link.
http://a-c-elitzur.co.il/uploads/articlesdocs/Elitzur-Dolev13.pdf
http://a-c-elitzur.co.il/uploads/articlesdocs/Becoming7-mod.pdf
http://a-c-elitzur.co.il/uploads/articlesdocs/MultipleIFM.pdf
http://a-c-elitzur.co.il/uploads/articlesdocs/More%20to%20T.pdf
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k0xk5213r57283m6/fulltext.pdf



From andres at thoughtware.tv  Fri Dec 17 11:57:43 2010
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (=?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5kculzIENvbPNu?=)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 07:57:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thoughtware.TV News: Augmented Reality IPhone App Translates
 Signs and Menus Instantly [Video]
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpuAXrGKt+fPMbBR8oB=gupg2utsKM6iUHmL9a@mail.gmail.com>

Word Lens instantly translates printed words from one language to another
using the video camera on your iPhone. No network delay, no roaming fees,
and no reception problems.

http://www.thoughtware.tv/videos/watch/5618

Check it out!

Andr?s
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 13:19:05 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 06:19:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>

I thought this was quite funny...

http://dilbert.com/2010-12-17/

John  ; )


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 14:20:31 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:20:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>

Yup. That is VERY funny.

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:19 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I thought this was quite funny...
>
> http://dilbert.com/2010-12-17/
>
> John  ; )
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 15:21:31 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:21:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/17 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>:
> Yup. That is VERY funny.
>
>


Especially as coincidentally Facebook is rolling out its own face
recognition software.

So, if it works, every photo of you on Facebook will be tagged with
your name. Not just your own photos, but photos uploaded by anyone,
even those you don't know about.

If it doesn't work, .........


What could possibly go wrong?????


BillK


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 15:30:04 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:30:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimz=by66CQcA0KAv_N9S8_ALSWmnyU90MQynvg+@mail.gmail.com>

I think maybe I ran across a beta edition of that. I was tagged in someone
else's photo and my name came up when you ran the cursor over my face in the
pic. Not that automatically do that: massage my own face with a cursor.

Darren

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 11:21 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2010/12/17 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>:
> > Yup. That is VERY funny.
> >
> >
>
>
> Especially as coincidentally Facebook is rolling out its own face
> recognition software.
>
> So, if it works, every photo of you on Facebook will be tagged with
> your name. Not just your own photos, but photos uploaded by anyone,
> even those you don't know about.
>
> If it doesn't work, .........
>
>
> What could possibly go wrong?????
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 15:37:13 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:37:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The history of spaceflight
In-Reply-To: <201012170034.oBH0YpJ5017169@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201012170034.oBH0YpJ5017169@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=E+vHMO+BMrSL1Pp7FVvL6tG5GT66QCB2WLSWY@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, it is neat. I just adopted it as my desktop wallpaper. It replaced Dr.
Evil.

Darren

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> Cool bit of visualization. Reminds me of Tufte --
>
> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2445/4002050596_0c2b6c4dd2_o.jpg
>
>
> -- David.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Dec 17 15:39:11 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:39:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012171632410.8012@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, BillK wrote:

> 2010/12/17 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>:
> > Yup. That is VERY funny.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Especially as coincidentally Facebook is rolling out its own face
> recognition software.
> 
> So, if it works, every photo of you on Facebook will be tagged with
> your name. Not just your own photos, but photos uploaded by anyone,
> even those you don't know about.
> 
> If it doesn't work, .........
> 
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?????

There is a considerable number of celeb look-alikes... What could go wrong 
with this? If, say, they snap me while I am sitting crosslegged, with 
false beard and towel around my head :-). While having ak-47-look-alike 
cut from styro in one hand and checking material quality of someone's 
bikini with second hand...

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 17 16:50:07 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:50:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005701cb9e0a$76375370$62a5fa50$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of BillK
...

>Especially as coincidentally Facebook is rolling out its own face
recognition software...So, if it works, every photo of you on Facebook will
be tagged with your name. Not just your own photos, but photos uploaded by
anyone, even those you don't know about...If it doesn't work, ...What could
possibly go wrong?  BillK

If it doesn't work is not as bad as if it does work.  A business competitor
could slam Facebook with pictures identified as you doing such things as
drawing cartoons of Joseph Smith for instance.  One could be slain by
radical Mormons in such a way that the one ultimately responsible for the
murder pays nothing and faces zero risk of legal repercussions.  

But other than that, this sounds cool.

spike



   






From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 17:18:54 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:18:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <005701cb9e0a$76375370$62a5fa50$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
	<005701cb9e0a$76375370$62a5fa50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTika6DemfQ9SdHoMtL8PMAavU-dv7VeHUsrj2K3T@mail.gmail.com>

Spike,

Radical SLC based Mormons would sneak all the booze, coffee, tea and
caffeinated soda out of your house, remove all of the R-rated movies,
and at the very worst, tie you down and perpetrate the Clockwork
Orange treatment, as they made you watch hours after hour of BYU
television programming!

John  ; )

On 12/17/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> ... On Behalf Of BillK
> ...
>
>>Especially as coincidentally Facebook is rolling out its own face
> recognition software...So, if it works, every photo of you on Facebook will
> be tagged with your name. Not just your own photos, but photos uploaded by
> anyone, even those you don't know about...If it doesn't work, ...What could
> possibly go wrong?  BillK
>
> If it doesn't work is not as bad as if it does work.  A business competitor
> could slam Facebook with pictures identified as you doing such things as
> drawing cartoons of Joseph Smith for instance.  One could be slain by
> radical Mormons in such a way that the one ultimately responsible for the
> murder pays nothing and faces zero risk of legal repercussions.
>
> But other than that, this sounds cool.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 18:30:48 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:30:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quantum phenomena and >4D dimensionality
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ZLwKz=1eDL3b9DMEZyK_8vLCpNn=U3aDBoG2m@mail.gmail.com>

I'm getting old.  I recall fondly the good old days.  Days filled with
the enjoyment of science.  Science I seemed to grasp well enough to
feel good about myself, to feel smart.  This new stuff challenges me.
Presenting a burdensome expanse of the just-now-dimly-seen, emergent,
implicit-yet-still-all-but-entirely-unknown unknown.  Blessed be the
incredible lightness of the still entirely unknown unknown.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26144/?nlid=3900

Now go take a look at the above-linked article.  Then come back and
read the rest below.

                                *********************************************

So I'm sitting here at my little netbook, composing that first
paragraph, when my wife comes to me with two necklace loops.  These
are continuous loops with no junction to allow them to be opened into
a single straight strand with ends. And the loops are connected like
two links of chain.  She hands them to me and says, "Could you please
separate these?  They were in my jewelery case and got hooked
together."  I looked at the two linked strands-without-ends and I
replied, "What you have here is a quantum singularity."

I was not being strictly rigorous (is that redundant?) with my
terminology -- because rigor is not strictly required in my domestic
setting, where the uncertainty principle dominates -- but was merely
indulging in my habit, when confronted in the real world with the
clearly impossible, of blaming it on quantum "weirdness".  What was
really spooky, however, was combination of the timing, and the
striking "congruence" of the subject matter of the above-linked
article and the "impossible" yet undeniably real topological conundrum
dropped at that moment in my lap by my wife.

I studied the problem of the two loops until, after a while, I was
able to apply string theory and the likely -- subsequently confirmed
-- dimensional overlap (implied by trans-modal energy-flow
periodicities) to disentangle the two loops.  It wasn't all that hard,
actually.

Best, Jeff Davis

               "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                 Ray Charles


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 17 18:36:48 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:36:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTika6DemfQ9SdHoMtL8PMAavU-dv7VeHUsrj2K3T@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>	<005701cb9e0a$76375370$62a5fa50$@att.net>
	<AANLkTika6DemfQ9SdHoMtL8PMAavU-dv7VeHUsrj2K3T@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007001cb9e19$5db36500$191a2f00$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of John Grigg
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps

>Spike,

>Radical SLC based Mormons would sneak all the booze, coffee, tea and
caffeinated soda out of your house, remove all of the R-rated movies, and at
the very worst, tie you down and perpetrate the Clockwork Orange treatment,
as they made you watch hours after hour of BYU television programming!  John
; )


No pal, you are referring to the true Mormons, the real Mormons, those who
make up the vast majority of the peaceful Mormon religion.  But there is a
tiny minority, often children of affluent true Mormons, who mysteriously
become radicalized and dangerous.  Some of them object to US troops
stationed in Salt Lake City, or some other real or perceived blasphemy.
Society perpetuates the myth that their radicalization is somehow based on
poverty and ignorance, and thus prescribe completely ineffective if not
counterproductive antidotes to this mysterious memetic virus that leads
otherwise educated and prosperous young Mormons into murderous rage.

The booze and TV they can have, but they will get my coffee when they pry it
from my cold dead hands.
 
spike







From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 17:07:32 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:07:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] META: Windows Computer Security
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=S0ct4_shcNRnjycWgS6XZmV199db=dSm6T0Gc@mail.gmail.com>

Microsoft this week released Security Essentials 2.0 anti-malware
software as a free download.
Microsoft Security Essentials provides real-time protection for your
home PC that guards against viruses, spyware, and other malicious
software.

Microsoft has updated the anti-malware engine to make the software
faster and smarter at detecting security hazards. The software also
now ties in with Windows Firewall, giving you the option of turning
the firewall on or off.

Supported Operating Systems: Windows 7;Windows Vista;Windows XP

<https://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/>
-----------------

If you *must* run Windows, Security Essentials 2.0 is a good *free*
all-in-one security package that can replace similar non-free packages
like those from McAfee or Symantec.

It is NOT suitable if you prefer to run stand-alone anti-virus or
anti-spyware software from other manufacturers as they would conflict
with each other. Similarly if you have a stand-alone firewall, then
you should switch off the Windows firewall.

But as a simple do-everything package for unsophisticated users, it is
pretty good.


BillK


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 19:02:33 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:02:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <007001cb9e19$5db36500$191a2f00$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
	<005701cb9e0a$76375370$62a5fa50$@att.net>
	<AANLkTika6DemfQ9SdHoMtL8PMAavU-dv7VeHUsrj2K3T@mail.gmail.com>
	<007001cb9e19$5db36500$191a2f00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=6UawekLTyoJ0rFQ0wkbBDS-cOE1oQhHQPOWZG@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
No pal, you are referring to the true Mormons, the real Mormons, those who
make up the vast majority of the peaceful Mormon religion.  But there is a
tiny minority, often children of affluent true Mormons, who mysteriously
become radicalized and dangerous.  Some of them object to US troops
stationed in Salt Lake City, or some other real or perceived blasphemy.
Society perpetuates the myth that their radicalization is somehow based on
poverty and ignorance, and thus prescribe completely ineffective if not
counterproductive antidotes to this mysterious memetic virus that leads
otherwise educated and prosperous young Mormons into murderous rage.

The booze and TV they can have, but they will get my coffee when they pry it
from my cold dead hands.
>>>

Your scenario for psychological/sociological dissent makes me think of
the 1960's in microcosm.  I bet it also happens in other close-knit
religious bodies.

When Romney wins, the BYU molecular biology dept. will release it's
coffee bean killing virus and then all the soda companies (owned by
Mormons) will be ordered to make only caffeine free beverages!
Mormons will have miscalculated, and Romney of course will be
impeached, with angry but slow-moving & very tired looking mobs out
hunting for Mormons!

John  ; )



On 12/17/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... On Behalf Of John Grigg
>>Subject: Re: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
>
>>Spike,
>
>>Radical SLC based Mormons would sneak all the booze, coffee, tea and
> caffeinated soda out of your house, remove all of the R-rated movies, and at
> the very worst, tie you down and perpetrate the Clockwork Orange treatment,
> as they made you watch hours after hour of BYU television programming!  John
> ; )
>
>
> No pal, you are referring to the true Mormons, the real Mormons, those who
> make up the vast majority of the peaceful Mormon religion.  But there is a
> tiny minority, often children of affluent true Mormons, who mysteriously
> become radicalized and dangerous.  Some of them object to US troops
> stationed in Salt Lake City, or some other real or perceived blasphemy.
> Society perpetuates the myth that their radicalization is somehow based on
> poverty and ignorance, and thus prescribe completely ineffective if not
> counterproductive antidotes to this mysterious memetic virus that leads
> otherwise educated and prosperous young Mormons into murderous rage.
>
> The booze and TV they can have, but they will get my coffee when they pry it
> from my cold dead hands.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 19:20:09 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 19:20:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] quantum phenomena and >4D dimensionality
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=ZLwKz=1eDL3b9DMEZyK_8vLCpNn=U3aDBoG2m@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=ZLwKz=1eDL3b9DMEZyK_8vLCpNn=U3aDBoG2m@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikexQd3n_0RxPLTb23YnEzkQyw7fWs=JMshCgf7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
> So I'm sitting here at my little netbook, composing that first
> paragraph, when my wife comes to me with two necklace loops. ?These
> are continuous loops with no junction to allow them to be opened into
> a single straight strand with ends. And the loops are connected like
> two links of chain. ?She hands them to me and says, "Could you please
> separate these? ?They were in my jewelery case and got hooked
> together." ?I looked at the two linked strands-without-ends and I
> replied, "What you have here is a quantum singularity."
>
> I studied the problem of the two loops until, after a while, I was
> able to apply string theory and the likely -- subsequently confirmed
> -- dimensional overlap (implied by trans-modal energy-flow
> periodicities) to disentangle the two loops. ?It wasn't all that hard,
> actually.
>
>


I get landed with a very simiar problem. My wife has a favorite
necklace with a thin silver chain which seems to be an as yet unknown
form of artifical life. As soon as it is taken off and put down in a
box, or in a purse, as random examples, it immediately ties itself
into knots. Not simple knots, Oh no, but knots such as only an
experienced sailing ship deckhand would know.

Who needs lego when you have puzzles such as this to work on?


BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Dec 17 21:08:16 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 22:08:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian	assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:

> rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact that
> some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
> organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you suggest,
> you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very much
> of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.

Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is
the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down. 
Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 21:34:14 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:34:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:

> rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact that
> some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
> organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you suggest,
> you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very much
> of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.

Eugen replied:
Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is
the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.
Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.
>>>

I remember as a teenager seeing documentaries about McCarthyism and
thinking to myself, "those sorts of things could never happen again!"
I turned out to be so horribly wrong about that...

John



On 12/17/10, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:
>
>> rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact that
>> some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
>> organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you suggest,
>> you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very
>> much
>> of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.
>
> Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
> It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is
> the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.
> Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.
>
> --
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 22:04:36 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:04:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimpdngxjWkRQsUXeF7xwBP3wmHb1YVB45pchv2V@mail.gmail.com>

>I remember as a teenager seeing documentaries about McCarthyism and
thinking to myself, "those sorts of things could never happen again!"
I turned out to be so horribly wrong about that...<

As dispiriting as it is to think that we haven't come very far, in the end I
believe it's a good thing to contemplate and understand. I think it was Elie
Wiesel that said that if we continue to brand Hitler and the European
fascists as sheer monsters instead of ordinary humans capable
of monstrous acts, we won't  be able to recognize and forestall it when it's
happening again.

The tuning point in my understanding of where we are politically came when I
read John Keegan's Second World War and  Henry Wallace's (Roosevelt's VP)
1944 essay The Danger Of American Fascism.

http://newdeal.feri.org/wallace/haw23.htm

Up until then I thought, like most, that fascism was
overt totalitarian control by the few over the many, and characterized by
jack-booted racial intolerance. I got my eyes opened for good when I read
that essay and Mussolini's definition of it: *"Fascism should more
appropriately be called corporatism **because it is a merger of state and
corporate power."*
*
*
Then I learned that the U.S. congress has a fasces symbol on one of its
interior walls, and that was the end of my political innocence.  I'm not
exactly a New Wold Order Conspiracy theorist, mostly because I don't believe
these guys are clever or patient enough to plan for that long and in such
secrecy.  But I'm not exactly brimming over with civic pride and trust in
our political leaders either. And if I ever do get invited to Bilderberg,
I'm wearing a wire.

Darren


On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:34 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:
>
> > rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact
> that
> > some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
> > organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you suggest,
> > you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very
> much
> > of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.
>
> Eugen replied:
> Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
> It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is
> the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.
> Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.
> >>>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On 12/17/10, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:
> >
> >> rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact
> that
> >> some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
> >> organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you
> suggest,
> >> you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very
> >> much
> >> of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.
> >
> > Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
> > It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is
> > the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.
> > Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.
> >
> > --
> > Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 22:22:49 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:22:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimpdngxjWkRQsUXeF7xwBP3wmHb1YVB45pchv2V@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimpdngxjWkRQsUXeF7xwBP3wmHb1YVB45pchv2V@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bRZ=NMQte_yFNDsZU8pxnhb62E028--gbMxrE@mail.gmail.com>

>This is the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.<

I'm guilty of conforming to Godwin's Law a lot, btw. But at least you can
still carry on the discussion once Hitler is invoked. More often than not,
even with a bunch of atheists and agnostics like us (or most of us --  don't
want to assume) God eventually gets dragged into it, and then you're really
screwed. I have a new roomier law: once God or Spinoza or the Many World's
Interpretation is mentioned, the on-line discussion is for all practical
purposes kaput.

Darren

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> >I remember as a teenager seeing documentaries about McCarthyism and
> thinking to myself, "those sorts of things could never happen again!"
> I turned out to be so horribly wrong about that...<
>
> As dispiriting as it is to think that we haven't come very far, in the end
> I believe it's a good thing to contemplate and understand. I think it was
> Elie Wiesel that said that if we continue to brand Hitler and the European
> fascists as sheer monsters instead of ordinary humans capable
> of monstrous acts, we won't  be able to recognize and forestall it when it's
> happening again.
>
> The tuning point in my understanding of where we are politically came when
> I read John Keegan's Second World War and  Henry Wallace's (Roosevelt's VP)
> 1944 essay The Danger Of American Fascism.
>
> http://newdeal.feri.org/wallace/haw23.htm
>
> Up until then I thought, like most, that fascism was
> overt totalitarian control by the few over the many, and characterized by
> jack-booted racial intolerance. I got my eyes opened for good when I read
> that essay and Mussolini's definition of it: *"Fascism should more
> appropriately be called corporatism **because it is a merger of state and
> corporate power."*
> *
> *
> Then I learned that the U.S. congress has a fasces symbol on one of its
> interior walls, and that was the end of my political innocence.  I'm not
> exactly a New Wold Order Conspiracy theorist, mostly because I don't believe
> these guys are clever or patient enough to plan for that long and in such
> secrecy.  But I'm not exactly brimming over with civic pride and trust in
> our political leaders either. And if I ever do get invited to Bilderberg,
> I'm wearing a wire.
>
> Darren
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:34 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:
>>
>> > rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact
>> that
>> > some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
>> > organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you
>> suggest,
>> > you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very
>> much
>> > of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.
>>
>> Eugen replied:
>> Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
>> It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is
>> the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.
>> Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.
>> >>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/17/10, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:
>> >
>> >> rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact
>> that
>> >> some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist
>> >> organization should scare you. It should scare all of us. As you
>> suggest,
>> >> you can paint anything with that particular brush.  It reminds me very
>> >> much
>> >> of the kind of propaganda tactic that Shirer described.
>> >
>> > Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
>> > It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is
>> > the threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.
>> > Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
>> > ______________________________________________________________
>> > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
>> > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
> *
>
>
>


-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Dec 17 22:28:00 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:28:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian
	assange's	address
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>	<20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a401cb9e39$aa275520$fe75ff60$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of John Grigg...
Subject: Re: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
address

>>>On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:12:08PM -0400, Darren Greer wrote:

> rather liberators. Did it in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France. The fact 
> that some government officials want to brand Wikileaks as a terrorist 


>Eugen replied:
Apologies for a me-too. But it's not "reminds me very much of".
It is absolutely very much exactly 100% the very same thing. This is the
threshold where Godwin's law starts to break down.
Caveat emptor. Your soul is at stake.
>>>

>I remember as a teenager seeing documentaries about McCarthyism and
thinking to myself, "those sorts of things could never happen again!"
I turned out to be so horribly wrong about that...John

Oh yeah?  Well then Johnny, you must be a card carrying communist!

{8^D

I never did get the whole card-carrying bit.  Why would they need to carry a
card?  To prove they were card carrying communists?  What if they were
commies but didn't carry the card?  Or what if they were secret capitalists
but carried the communist card?  The 50s were weird.

The part I still don't see is why the focus is so much on Julian.  He's not
the leaker, the leak is upstream of him.  If you have a leak in your yard
irrigation system, the actual leak is at the faucet.  So why all the
attention to Assange?  He's the sprinkler, PFC Manning is the hose(d).  The
leaking faucet is the system which allowed one guy to download an email
archive.

That being said, I still suspect a trap, as apparently the mainstream news
outlets do as well.  They still aren't taking the bait as far as I know.
Has anyone here seen any of the majors reporting scandalous anything based
on Wikileaks?

spike











From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 17 23:06:37 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:06:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The world of bullshit
Message-ID: <AANLkTinN6fHxvgBTSkj7CShikNrOwmQn=5jUpd7Kt_A7@mail.gmail.com>

What a catalogue!

<http://www.badscience.net/2010/12/the-year-in-nonsense-2/>

The year in nonsense

by Ben Goldacre, The Guardian, Saturday 17 December 2010

It?s been a marvellous year for bullshit. We saw quantitative evidence
showing that drug adverts aimed at doctors are routinely factually
inaccurate, while pharmaceutical company ghostwriters were the secret
hands behind letters to the Times, and a whole series of academic
papers. We saw more drug companies and even regulators withholding
evidence from doctors and patients that a drug was dangerous ? the
most important and neglected ethical issue in modern medicine.

Bias is everywhere. Academic papers from people who get money from
tobacco companies are vastly more likely to say that cigarettes
prevent Alzheimer?s, and we saw the first good quantitative evidence
describing how academics routinely mislead readers about their
negative results in academic papers, by spinning them as positive.
Dodgy facts aren?t the only reason clever people believe stupid
things, as demonstrated by a gale of research on irrationality.
Superstitious rituals really do improve performance.

And on, and on, and on...........

-------------------------

BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 18 01:22:12 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:22:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The world of bullshit
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinN6fHxvgBTSkj7CShikNrOwmQn=5jUpd7Kt_A7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinN6fHxvgBTSkj7CShikNrOwmQn=5jUpd7Kt_A7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cc01cb9e51$ffb80260$ff280720$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: [ExI] The world of bullshit

>What a catalogue!

><http://www.badscience.net/2010/12/the-year-in-nonsense-2/>

>The year in nonsense... It's been a marvelous year for bullshit. We saw
quantitative evidence showing that drug adverts aimed at doctors are
routinely factually inaccurate...And on, and on, and on...BillK

Thanks BillK, excellent.  I liked this one:

http://www.badscience.net/2010/10/the-caveat-in-paragraph-number-19/

perhaps because it reinforces my prejudices.  {8-]  Now if someone tries to
disabuse me of my favorite prejudices, I can legitimately conclude that they
suffer from the same delusions that are in the minds of anyone who doesn't
see the plain truth.  {8^D  As an aside, I did note that Goldacre
specifically and conspicuously avoids any mention of climate science.

Regarding the caveat in scientific reporting by the popular press, I have
made a longstanding practice of finding that caveat paragraph second,
immediately after reading the headline and the first paragraph.  Often the
caveat is in either the second or third paragraph from the end of the
article, and is often a noticeably short paragraph.  In some cases, as the
one cited in badscience, the caveat completely torpedoes the central thesis
of the entire article. 

Good example of a caveat paragraph: the article is titled
.
Strict diet two days a week 'cuts risk of breast cancer by 40 per cent'
.
In the third paragraph from the end of the article with the above title, we
find the startling comment:
.
But Dr Julie Sharp, senior science information manager at Cancer Research
UK, said: 'This study is not about breast cancer, it's a study showing how
different diet patterns affect weight loss and it's misleading to draw any
conclusions about breast cancer from this research.'
.
OK, may I now sue to get those ten minutes back that I wasted reading the
article?  Some of you code jockeys should write a routine that can identify
the caveat paragraph and move it forward to right under the title.

spike





From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 01:30:19 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:30:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The nature of humans was ambiguously evil british
Message-ID: <AANLkTimb08h6arUa=kfoQrZBMpHZdE73C3E3YofbmGVd@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:41 PM,  John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> I remember as a teenager seeing documentaries about McCarthyism and
> thinking to myself, "those sorts of things could never happen again!"
> I turned out to be so horribly wrong about that...

Under a thin veneer of culture lies the stone age human.

It turns out to be obvious to those who understand evolutionary
psychology that we are wired up to be *both* peaceful *and* warlike
with the perception of conditions getting better or worse switching
our social (mass) behavior from one mode to the other.

Good times and the perception of good into the future, we are peaceful.

With the perception of bad times a-coming we turn up the gain on
xenophobic memes, demonize others and attempt to kill them for the
resources they hold.  Just like the stone age behavior of our
ancestors.

We have had an exceptional half century where technical advances ran
ahead of population growth in most of the world.  Where it did not we
had Rwanda and Cambodia.  *If* such advances stall out--and they
might--expect to see wars knock the population back.

How much I don't know.  If wars just stopped commerce, an awful lot of
the world does not grow enough food to keep them from starving.

As an engineer, I think there is plenty of room to solve the
problems--largely energy problems.  But it's not obvious it will be
done.

Keith


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 18 02:19:11 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 20:19:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The nature of humans was ambiguously evil british
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimb08h6arUa=kfoQrZBMpHZdE73C3E3YofbmGVd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimb08h6arUa=kfoQrZBMpHZdE73C3E3YofbmGVd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D0C1A1F.4090609@satx.rr.com>

What a great subject line!


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 03:10:22 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 22:10:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Humor: facial recognition apps
In-Reply-To: <007001cb9e19$5db36500$191a2f00$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTi=K0iatWkac5VwVdV89OLMxndAy-cr2SKKpAjss@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=fWPYUm9rQAApVj2w+Hca4ke_my9nV8EG_-3Cx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQs1g-odG-YqmHs8cbK0Xo+Ux2xzi2ez97on-T@mail.gmail.com>
	<005701cb9e0a$76375370$62a5fa50$@att.net>
	<AANLkTika6DemfQ9SdHoMtL8PMAavU-dv7VeHUsrj2K3T@mail.gmail.com>
	<007001cb9e19$5db36500$191a2f00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=_uzowQhzxnoxZV5JoEPGS_V9YAyViAJreN2Te@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:36 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... On Behalf Of John Grigg
>>Radical SLC based Mormons would sneak all the booze, coffee, tea and
> caffeinated soda out of your house, remove all of the R-rated movies, and at
> the very worst, tie you down and perpetrate the Clockwork Orange treatment,
> as they made you watch hours after hour of BYU television programming! ?John
>
> No pal, you are referring to the true Mormons, the real Mormons, those who
> make up the vast majority of the peaceful Mormon religion. ?But there is a
> tiny minority, often children of affluent true Mormons, who mysteriously
> become radicalized and dangerous. ?Some of them object to US troops

Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean
People's Front. Cawk.


I think it will be good to have a giant like Facebook (et al.) employ
some automated photo tagging and "recognition" applications that
spectacularly flubs it.  No so much that it is immediately recalled -
but enough that my identity is no longer guaranteed by the mere
presence of a picture "on the internet."  When the machines automate
mistakes with the same efficiency as they uncover private details
there is some hope it might just cancel itself out.

Even if I think of myself as "one in a million" that means there
should be (statistically speaking) almost 7000 people on this planet
just like me enough to be recognized incorrectly.



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Dec 18 05:31:49 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:31:49 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
 address
In-Reply-To: <00a401cb9e39$aa275520$fe75ff60$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net> <4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a401cb9e39$aa275520$fe75ff60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012180514140.8012@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, spike wrote:

> That being said, I still suspect a trap, as apparently the mainstream news
> outlets do as well.  They still aren't taking the bait as far as I know.
> Has anyone here seen any of the majors reporting scandalous anything based
> on Wikileaks?

Crap. I tried to resist taking part in anything W-l-related... I've went 
to great lengths trying to write only about golden members and false 
beards. And now I fail like a stone into the mud...

Here in Poland there were some news about how US decided to station a 
battery of Patriot rockets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PATRIOT_battery_in_Poland,_2010.JPG

but it has been "uncovered" by journalists (after reading the leaks) that 
they were unloaded. Or useless, I reckon. This was, however, known by some 
officials (few of them perished in Tupolev's catastrophe in Russia 
earlier this year). Seems like only the public was kept unaware of this, 
instead being given nice pictures of bright side of the coin. Yeah, this 
gullible public. Would they believe in anything but colorful pictures?

I'm not really sure how things proceeded next. Few days after that I've 
seen PL-president and US-president shaking each other's hands, which 
probably meant that either one of them, or maybe both, were cool. But I've 
decided I was busy and stopped paying attention. So perhaps the 
uselessness of the said battery was part of the plan - empty launchers go 
first, do some field training with our troops, next will come a time 
to blow something up, or down. But my cynicism hints me that I am naive.

No, I have no bad feelings towards USians, really. I understand politics 
is a bitch. I'm just, kind of, indifferent.

Anyway, there was a "knews" about this. For me, not scandalous, but I 
think there is so little that could surprise me. I mean, after realising 
that moral standard in international relations is backstabbing and banging 
dead body until it falls apart into pieces, what could shock me, really? 
Since quite a long time news are just, "yeah, yawn, go on",

But yes, one kind of leak could have shocked me - the one proving me how 
wrong I was. 

For a moment, my only long term reaction to all muddy bloody dirty facts 
is that since a world can do quite well without humans, having children is 
not a priority (yes, leaders, better start raising hens, maybe hundred 
years from now there is noone else for you to fuck? alas, I guess I am 
naive again). Aw yes, and the second reaction is my turning my ass to the 
world and my front to the maths (one has to entertain oneself somehow, 
right? and amateur maths sounds like great challenge, great enough to make 
me happy).

However, it perhaps needs to be said again, in plain text - W-l is not so 
big deal for me, and changed nothing in my attitude. Maybe a hole here or 
there has been plugged, but the wall was already standing strong. I didn't 
bother to start BT client.

Also, however pessimistic and pitiful my writing may sound (don't know 
this, does it?), I am not tying any kind of sadness with all this stuff. I 
guess I just make decisions and that's it. No place for anything but a 
computation.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From anders at aleph.se  Sat Dec 18 10:46:52 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:46:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The nature of humans was ambiguously evil british
In-Reply-To: <4D0C1A1F.4090609@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimb08h6arUa=kfoQrZBMpHZdE73C3E3YofbmGVd@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0C1A1F.4090609@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4D0C911C.4060305@aleph.se>

On 2010-12-18 03:19, Damien Broderick wrote:
> What a great subject line!

Well, life is solitary, poor, nasty, British, and short.

We better fix that. Hmm, maybe I am in the wrong place for it :-)

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From anders at aleph.se  Sat Dec 18 10:46:55 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:46:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The world of bullshit
In-Reply-To: <00cc01cb9e51$ffb80260$ff280720$@att.net>
References: <AANLkTinN6fHxvgBTSkj7CShikNrOwmQn=5jUpd7Kt_A7@mail.gmail.com>
	<00cc01cb9e51$ffb80260$ff280720$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D0C911F.6010003@aleph.se>

Sorry, as someone hanging out with too many philosophers I must quibble: 
most of what Ben Goldacre describes is not bullshit.

H.G Frankfurt wrote an excellent essay/little book called "On Bullshit" 
where he analysed the concept. He concluded that when you deceive, you 
know what is true and choose to signal information that makes people 
believe untrue things. When you are bullshitting, you don't care what is 
true.

The biased academic papers, ghostwritten letters and withheld 
information are all deception of different kinds. Someone knows or 
suspects a true state of the world and acts to conceal it from others.

However, a lot of the bad newspaper reporting *is* bullshit by 
Frankfurt's definition - the journalists are often not trying to 
deceive, they just write stories.

Deception and bullshit are bad, but I think I agree with Frankfurt that 
bullshit is more corrosive. Calling deception is easier and causes more 
direct embarrassment, while the bullshitter often isn't embarrassed. 
They ought to be.


Here is a homespun yule present idea: to publicly call out something 
untrue or bullshit that annoys a person dear to you. "Dear Aunt Mary: 
since I know you hate historical revisionism and love smoking, I have 
made the following blog post where I document the photo-editing of old 
photos of smoking celebrities..."

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 18 16:54:14 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 08:54:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
	address
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012180514140.8012@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net>
	<4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>	<20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>	<AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>	<00a401cb9e39$aa275520$fe75ff60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1012180514140.8012@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <001701cb9ed4$33e8c7e0$9bba57a0$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola...
Subject: Re: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
address

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, spike wrote:

> > I still suspect a trap, as apparently the mainstream 
> >news outlets do as well.  They still aren't taking the bait as far as I
know.
> >Has anyone here seen any of the majors reporting scandalous anything 
> >based on Wikileaks?

>...Here in Poland there were some news about how US decided to station a
battery of Patriot rockets...

So they say, but:

>... it has been "uncovered" by journalists (after reading the leaks) that
they were unloaded...

So they say, but:

>Or useless, I reckon...

On the contrary.  Very useful I reckon.  Reasoning: they deploy the launcher
trucks with dummy missiles, which are then reported to be scarecrows while
simultaneously being reported to be fake scarecrows, guys dressed up as
scarecrows with actual shotguns.  The external view of those trucks is
identical, regardless of whether they are loaded or not.  So the trucks are
everywhere, with some unknown fraction carrying weapons.  This provides a
test case, to see if there are any local guerillas who will try to attack
the trucks, they believing they carry actual missiles.  If the commies
conclude that *all* the trucks are dummies, they fire their weapons, they
are mysteriously shot down by one of the dummy trucks.

>... This was, however, known by some officials...

So they say, but:

>... Seems like only the public was kept unaware of this...

Or perhaps the public was intentionally informed, in a way they would
believe: the public are suckers for anything marked secret.  They think that
one word makes it automatically true.

Imagine an army with plenty of rifles but little ammunition, facing a
possible invader.  Every third rifle is loaded, the rest have only dummy
shells.  The soldiers themselves do not know if they are loaded or harmless,
the invading enemy knows not that there are unloaded weapons.  I can imagine
that being a very effective deterrent.

>... Few days after that I've seen PL-president and US-president shaking
each other's hands, which probably meant that either one of them, or maybe
both, were cool...

Once the trucks are in place, the dummies can be replaced with real missiles
at any time or in any proportion, without attracting attention.
...
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

After all this, I am seeing *plenty* of ways governments could fight
transparency.

spike










From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 20:16:59 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:16:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 December 2010 06:05, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Alan, I like your tagline. ?As Judge Hudson said today, health care reform
> is a laudable goal, but it must be done legally.

Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 19:56:03 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 20:56:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] More information on EOD fasting for the CR/life extension
	crowd
In-Reply-To: <4D0526B1.2000500@gnolls.org>
References: <4D0526B1.2000500@gnolls.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinpZwvUd53SfzU-74FXQHp8Pm1Lbiwa6WoJYeLb@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2010 20:46, J. Stanton <js_exi at gnolls.org> wrote:

>
> I'm seeing more and more evidence that EOD (every other day) fasting gains
> us most of the same benefits as full-time calorie restriction.
>

I expect most of those benefits to be statistically tiny, but on empirical
or rather anedoctical evidence I suspect that contrary to the commonplace
("eat little, but frequently") eating once a day may be better in terms of
quality of life.

Interestingly, relatively abundant but sparse meals go hand in hand with
paleo and/or protein-rich diets, while grain and sugar addicts require food
every two or three hours to deal with withdrawal symptoms...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 18 20:47:45 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:47:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: Re: [ExI] a good day for liberty

On 14 December 2010 06:05, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Alan, I like your tagline. ?As Judge Hudson said today, health care
reform is a laudable goal, but it must be done legally.

>Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj

Yes because it predated the constitution.  The firing on Fort Sumter was
done illegally however.

spike









From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 20:02:59 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:02:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <002c01cb9a3b$1ccee460$566cad20$@att.net>
References: <4D0526EF.6040504@gnolls.org>
	<002c01cb9a3b$1ccee460$566cad20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikf14k0tEf5GTMx=y-G5nTRYL7LoWBvMU14Duj+@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2010 21:28, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I suggest nothing too
> painful, just something that adjusts one's attitude a bit.

I suspect most "pain" in any less-than-36-hours fasting to be just
glucose/insuline withdrawal symptoms.

Personally, in a diet based on fish, meat, green vegetables and some
nuts, if I have something more interesting to do I do not suffer much,
or rather at all, by not eating anything for such a period.

If anything, I enjoy a little more my steak at the end... :-)

--
Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 18 21:38:19 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 15:38:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>

On 12/18/2010 2:47 PM, spike wrote:

>> Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj
>
> Yes because it predated the constitution.

I hope that was a joke, because it's a terrible argument. You mean 
British subjects had no law (even when they were nasty, poor and short)? 
And if they did, but it was okay to break that law because there was no 
constitution in North America, does that authorize breaking current laws 
because one day there might be a New Constitution?

Damien Broderick


From max at maxmore.com  Sat Dec 18 21:29:46 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 15:29:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
Message-ID: <201012182156.oBILubLT001707@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 18 22:02:25 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:02:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
	<4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>


...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
Subject: Re: [ExI] a good day for liberty

On 12/18/2010 2:47 PM, spike wrote:

>>> Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj
>
>> Yes because it predated the constitution.

>...I hope that was a joke, because it's a terrible argument. You mean
British subjects had no law (even when they were nasty, poor and short)?

The British had law, handed down from its royalty and parliament.  The
American colonists were more and more being born in America or other places
outside England.  They were granted no representation in the British
parliament, yet were expected to pay British taxes.  They refused, imagine
that.  We would do the same today: taxation without representation is
tyranny, and must be opposed.  With no negative feedback loop, those tax
rates are free to grow unopposed.  This they will do, as if by a law of
nature.
 
>...And if they did, but it was okay to break that law because there was no
constitution in North America, does that authorize breaking current laws
because one day there might be a New Constitution?...Damien Broderick

They must actually fight and win the war before there is any new
constitution.  Since Americans vote, we now have a symbolic insurgency every
two years.  It may be far more difficult to gain sufficient support for a
revolution when we have that important symbolic rebellion in which we take
part periodically.

spike










From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 22:03:31 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 15:03:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXECtFSSNQ325mHaCDKDH48VezwVvti+Lpmj0q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 1:47 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj
>
> Yes because it predated the constitution.
> spike

Check with King George on that.  Washington and his gang were terrorists.

Best, Jeff Davis

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well
please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take
the consequences."
              P.J. O'Rourke


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Dec 18 23:04:24 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 15:04:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXECtFSSNQ325mHaCDKDH48VezwVvti+Lpmj0q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikXECtFSSNQ325mHaCDKDH48VezwVvti+Lpmj0q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01cb9f07$ea901650$bfb042f0$@att.net>

>>>Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj

>> Yes because it predated the constitution... spike

>Check with King George on that.  Washington and his gang were terrorists.
Best, Jeff Davis

Ja, but they were *good* terrorists.

{8^D

spike




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Dec 18 23:19:18 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 17:19:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>	<4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>
	<000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>

On 12/18/2010 4:02 PM, spike wrote:

> They were granted no representation in the British
> parliament, yet were expected to pay British taxes.  They refused, imagine
> that.  We would do the same today: taxation without representation is
> tyranny, and must be opposed.

Curiously enough, I have been in that situation for the last seven 
years. I pay US taxes on my earnings, but can't vote. Granted, I haven't 
yet sought citizenship (just permanent residency), but still, I get no 
representation and have to pay up anyway. Not complaining, you understand.

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 18 23:27:31 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:27:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <201012182156.oBILubLT001707@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201012182156.oBILubLT001707@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=kssLY0CYHoxPeqiQq56oXdy2zfMcP-sXqCcc4@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/18 Max More wrote:
> The paleo idea is spreading fast it seems. I'm still not sure about Michael
> Rose's view that you need not switch to paleo until age 35 or 40 (I haven't
> yet found a clear explanation of that, though I'm starting to read a pre-pub
> version of his co-authored 2011 book that might satisfy), but I'm urging
> everyone to at least read up on this approach, if they are serious about
> improving health and longevity.
>
>


I have a big problem with special diets. Basically it comes down to
Cost / Benefit analysis.

Diets are long-term projects. Therefore if discomfort or suffering is
involved it is also long-term and the cumulative suffering cost will
become rather large on the Cost side.
(This would not apply to the chocolate and ice-cream diet, for example).

On the other hand, feeling healthier and possibly living longer get
added to the Benefit side of the equation.

The trouble is, the Costs are added daily and the pain is felt every
day, guaranteed.

The Benefits are more problematical. You may feel good every day, but
how do you know that is due to your diet? You might be generally
healthy no matter what you eat - within reason.
You won't know if you will live longer for another 50 years. And
again, how do you prove it is due to your diet? Some heavy smokers
live to be 100. And you might get crushed by a falling piano next
year.

These long life diet plans always make me think of the Ninja warriors
in Hollywood films who train daily for twenty years, then meet the
American hero who pulls out a gun and shoots them dead. So much for
their twenty years training!


BillK


From jebdm at jebdm.net  Sat Dec 18 23:39:23 2010
From: jebdm at jebdm.net (Jebadiah Moore)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 18:39:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net> <4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>
	<000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>
	<4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=_2g1_XERqahKbU1nx_j_oH8ERqCrycG_Bi_Nx@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 12/18/2010 4:02 PM, spike wrote:
>
>> taxation without representation is tyranny, and must be opposed.
>>
>
> Curiously enough, I have been in that situation for the last seven years. I
> pay US taxes on my earnings, but can't vote.


Residents of Washington, D.C. are in the same situation.  They have no
voting representatives in Congress.  Their license plates humorously reflect
this:
http://daviding.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/20071009_dc_license_plate.jpg

-- 
Jebadiah Moore
http://blog.jebdm.net
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 03:15:56 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:15:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <000a01cb9f07$ea901650$bfb042f0$@att.net>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikXECtFSSNQ325mHaCDKDH48VezwVvti+Lpmj0q@mail.gmail.com>
	<000a01cb9f07$ea901650$bfb042f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZRg1Km9gbT4P1kKd+61U3-8XvxmqZcEMf0SkA@mail.gmail.com>

>> Yes because it predated the constitution... spike

>Check with King George on that.  Washington and his gang were terrorists.
Best, Jeff Davis

>Ja, but they were *good* terrorists.<

Carl Sagan said if we like them, they're freedom fighters. If we don't,
they're terrorists. And if we can't make up our minds, they're guerillas.

d.



On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 7:04 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> >>>Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj
>
>
> {8^D
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 03:31:41 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 20:31:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=_2g1_XERqahKbU1nx_j_oH8ERqCrycG_Bi_Nx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
	<4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>
	<000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>
	<4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=_2g1_XERqahKbU1nx_j_oH8ERqCrycG_Bi_Nx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin_mK+UV=WL1gTt+9XeMaYrwjriZtC2KJ1bKqEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
They must actually fight and win the war before there is any new
constitution.  Since Americans vote, we now have a symbolic insurgency every
two years.  It may be far more difficult to gain sufficient support for a
revolution when we have that important symbolic rebellion in which we take
part periodically.
>>>

Everyone seems to be forgetting the classic quote, "the winners write
the history books!"

Spike, the problem is that our symbolic insurgency has been hijacked
by powerful corporate interests that with massive soft money slush
funds and insider lobbyists, make sure those elected do their bidding,
and to hell with the masses!  The recent bailouts of Wall Street,
despite middle class outrage against it, proves my point.

John


On 12/18/10, Jebadiah Moore <jebdm at jebdm.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Damien Broderick
> <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:
>
>> On 12/18/2010 4:02 PM, spike wrote:
>>
>>> taxation without representation is tyranny, and must be opposed.
>>>
>>
>> Curiously enough, I have been in that situation for the last seven years.
>> I
>> pay US taxes on my earnings, but can't vote.
>
>
> Residents of Washington, D.C. are in the same situation.  They have no
> voting representatives in Congress.  Their license plates humorously reflect
> this:
> http://daviding.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/20071009_dc_license_plate.jpg
>
> --
> Jebadiah Moore
> http://blog.jebdm.net
>


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 04:47:19 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 00:47:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin_mK+UV=WL1gTt+9XeMaYrwjriZtC2KJ1bKqEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
	<4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>
	<000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>
	<4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=_2g1_XERqahKbU1nx_j_oH8ERqCrycG_Bi_Nx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin_mK+UV=WL1gTt+9XeMaYrwjriZtC2KJ1bKqEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin0v0P_iBn==FU1OyDkwRi=umTxsZ0DS84bcRaf@mail.gmail.com>

John wrote:

>the problem is that our symbolic insurgency has been hijacked
by powerful corporate interests that with massive soft money slush
funds and insider lobbyists, make sure those elected do their bidding,
and to hell with the masses!

That alone wouldn't so successfully counter change if those same interests
hadn't manage to keep people divided and at at each other's throats by
decorating each party platform in its own brightly colored brand of moral
wall paper. Vote one way you're voting left and vote another way you're
voting right. When in fact, no matter which way you vote -- left or right --
the real agenda had little to do with social or moral reforms. Those are
just colored bubbles, to keep us all angry and emotional and feeling as if
we're actually accomplishing something when we elect a new government or
support the old one.

When it comes to turning a democracy into a plutocracy, neither the
democrats or republicans, or liberals and conservatives in my country, can
claim to be doing anything different. Glass-Steagel was repealed under
Clinton. Obama has made more Wall Street appointments than Bush.  Openly
right wing Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper has on a number
of occasions rebuffed China on the grounds that they are human rights
abusers. Yet it doesn't take a genius to see that from a western corporate
stand-point Canada and its precious supply of oil and other
natural resources, which China needs and was negotiating with the
former elected government to acquire, must be kept as far away from them as
possible, and so hiding behind the guise of human rights in order
to alienate them is as corporate-minded, and as slimy, as it gets.

The problem is, you can't get at this stuff by listening to what you're told
on the evening news. You've got to do you're own digging and thinking. And
most people are just too busy, too tired,  too angry or  too trusting to do
it. I blame journalists a lot. I went to a good journalism school here in
Canada, and I know these guys aren't dumb. They see it. They talk about it
over drinks. But they rarely write about it. Just dumping information alone
is not enough, like Wikileaks did.  People need and want information to be
interpreted for them, and right now we have few media outlets doing that who
haven't been hi-jacked by corporate interests themselves. Those that are
free to say what they want are so concerned
with journalistic neutrality that they forget that those wishing to
manipulate them have no such principles.

I wish we had more journalists like Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi, who with
one no-holds-barred article kicked Goldman Sachs in the b***s and forced
them into the public eye. They've been scrambling to undo the public
relations damage ever since, but have not been able to successfully counter
one single accusation made in that piece.

Darren

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Spike wrote:
> They must actually fight and win the war before there is any new
> constitution.  Since Americans vote, we now have a symbolic insurgency
> every
> two years.  It may be far more difficult to gain sufficient support for a
> revolution when we have that important symbolic rebellion in which we take
> part periodically.
> >>>
>
> Everyone seems to be forgetting the classic quote, "the winners write
> the history books!"
>
> Spike, the problem is that our symbolic insurgency has been hijacked
> by powerful corporate interests that with massive soft money slush
> funds and insider lobbyists, make sure those elected do their bidding,
> and to hell with the masses!  The recent bailouts of Wall Street,
> despite middle class outrage against it, proves my point.
>
> John
>
>
> On 12/18/10, Jebadiah Moore <jebdm at jebdm.net> wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Damien Broderick
> > <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/18/2010 4:02 PM, spike wrote:
> >>
> >>> taxation without representation is tyranny, and must be opposed.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Curiously enough, I have been in that situation for the last seven
> years.
> >> I
> >> pay US taxes on my earnings, but can't vote.
> >
> >
> > Residents of Washington, D.C. are in the same situation.  They have no
> > voting representatives in Congress.  Their license plates humorously
> reflect
> > this:
> >
> http://daviding.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/20071009_dc_license_plate.jpg
> >
> > --
> > Jebadiah Moore
> > http://blog.jebdm.net
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 19 07:35:14 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:35:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>	<4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>	<000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>
	<4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <003501cb9f4f$46e1ff80$d4a5fe80$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien
Broderick
...

>Curiously enough, I have been in that situation for the last seven years. I
pay US taxes on my earnings, but can't vote. Granted, I haven't yet sought
citizenship (just permanent residency), but still, I get no representation
and have to pay up anyway. Not complaining, you understand.

Damien Broderick


Hmmmm that isn't just.  Anyone who pays taxes should have a say in how it is
squandered.  spike




From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 19 13:09:12 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 13:09:12 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Doesn't the subject line sound like a science publisher's dream? And indeed this is the title of a book by Terence Kealey, subtitled "How people evolved to make money". You can imagine my excitement on seeing this in my local library, and eagerly taking it home so I can start an argument with Keith Henson about evolutionary psychology and economics.

Like all the best advertising, the title, cover and blurb on the back are utterly false. Instead, this is a book on the history of science viewed through the lens of free-market economics. It touches on EP, and the section on the stone age and early civilisations covers some of the points the "what counts as paleo" arguments on here have.

The main thrust of the book is how Bacon's view of science as a public good are incorrect, and how government funding gets in the way. He does make many good points - for all that people assume pure science research leads to commercial spin-offs, there is the counter-argument that steam engines built by scientifically uneducated artisans led to industrial uses, and that these steam engines inspired Carnot's work on thermodynamics. In fact, if you'd tried to follow one of the leading scientific theories of the time, that heat was a substance, you wouldn't have been able to build a steam engine.

He also points to research that shows government-funded R&D "crowds out" commercial R&D, and that increased funding for scientific research has no positive correlation with economic growth. In the 19th century, French scientists complained that every fine development they had was commercialised in England, just as in the 20th American and British scientists complained about the Japanese.

One set of examples is striking - the first jet airliner (Comet), first commercial supercomputer (manufactured by Ferranti), commercial nuclear power station, and only supersonic airliner (Concorde, a french/british government initiative) were all great technological advances, and all commercial disasters funded at the British taxpayer's expense.

Kealey is generally anti-patent, and he tries to show that sharing information can be more profitable than patenting and trade secrets. He acknowledges that the regulatory costs of pharmaceuticals may make that one area that patents are necessary, and cites a paper by P Grootendorst and L Di Matteo "The Effect of Pharmaceutical Patent Term Length on Research and Development and Drug Expenditures in Canada", Healthcare Policy 2007, 2:63-84.

Kealey also makes the case that science is unlike most goods described by economists - it's not purely a public good, nor a private good, and doesn't fit the normal criteria for  "hybrid goods" used by economists. He calls science a "collegiate good" -  one which can only be directly used by the scientifically educated, but produces benefits both public and private.

Another point covered is that publishing academic papers is essentially a status activity, and as such the economics of it can be likened to vanity publishing - this is one reason why some journals have decided to charge subscribers to the journal less and instead charge people submitting papers as a way of sharing the costs.

There are many amusing incidents and asides in the book that show a different picture of historical events. My favourite is the part on Charles Babbage. While Babbage is lauded as a computational visionary, Kealey looks at his work from the side of the government - Babbage applied for funding, burnt through the lot without producing a working Difference Engine, and then applied for more money saying he had a new idea - the Analytial Engine. When the government rejected him, bearing in mind the results of his last project, he turned round and wrote a book "The Decline of British Science" in which he complained that Britain was going downhill as no-one would fund science. Of course, the nineteenth century saw many British discoveries and science doing well without government funding.

I'll stop there as I think I've covered enough ground already, and I've probably exceeded the attention span of half the list.

Tom


      



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 16:00:14 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:00:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <003501cb9f4f$46e1ff80$d4a5fe80$@att.net>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>
	<4D0D29CB.50707@satx.rr.com>
	<000d01cb9eff$4170c630$c4525290$@att.net>
	<4D0D4176.3010901@satx.rr.com>
	<003501cb9f4f$46e1ff80$d4a5fe80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinVuuuD9DnC+d_oyvLzyHC0yLZuUkX9D4-z9Av1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 2:35 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Hmmmm that isn't just. ?Anyone who pays taxes should have a say in how it is
> squandered. ?spike

If you buy an American car now you have some say in where they'll
"donate" $250 to charity.

I'd like to pay back my mortgage by sending checks to charity, but I
borrowed from a bank instead of from taxpayers...



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 19 16:04:04 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 08:04:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Tom Nowell
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits

>...Doesn't the subject line sound like a science publisher's dream?

Hey, it sold me.

>... by Terence Kealey, subtitled "How people evolved to make money"...

Ooooh, that sounds even sexier.

>... this is a book on the history of science viewed through the lens of
free-market economics...

My favorite lens!

>...I'll stop there as I think I've covered enough ground already, and I've
probably exceeded the attention span of half the list.  Tom

Don't stop, that discussion was getting me totally turned on.  You had me at
"evolved to make money."  And I am a flaming hetero!  

Actually we should coin an actual word for those who find money inherently
sexy.  Prosperosexual?  Capulationist?  Politician?  

Very well written post Tom, and an interesting sounding book.  Thanks man.
{8-]  spike







From spike66 at att.net  Sun Dec 19 16:33:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 08:33:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZRg1Km9gbT4P1kKd+61U3-8XvxmqZcEMf0SkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002401cb9b4c$90a3e130$b1eba390$@att.net>	<AANLkTikGhj_8eY+GYhcck4y9GDeW_NLoTU71j-jmQz_r@mail.gmail.com>	<003101cb9ef4$d33277e0$799767a0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikXECtFSSNQ325mHaCDKDH48VezwVvti+Lpmj0q@mail.gmail.com>	<000a01cb9f07$ea901650$bfb042f0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTinZRg1Km9gbT4P1kKd+61U3-8XvxmqZcEMf0SkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501cb9f9a$8a6adbf0$9f4093d0$@att.net>


>>>Check with King George on that.  Washington and his gang were terrorists.
Best, Jeff Davis

 

>>Ja, but they were *good* terrorists.< spike

 

>Carl Sagan said if we like them, they're freedom fighters. If we don't,
they're terrorists. And if we can't make up our minds, they're guerillas.
darren.

Haaa, thanks Darren.  

Puzzling comment by the US vice president:

Biden says if Assange conspired to get classified documents with a member of
the U.S. military, then "that's fundamentally different" than if a reporter
were given classified material by a source. The vice president tells NBC's
"Meet the Press" that he would argue it's closer to being "a high-tech
terrorist" than what happened in the Pentagon
<http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/the-pentagon.htm#r_src=ramp>  Papers
-- with the 1971 leak of a government study about U.S. involvement in
Vietnam.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/19/biden-slams-wikileaks-document-ha
nd-close-terrorism/?test=latestnews

So then, that covers two of four cases, but what is a reporter who
conspirers with GI Joe?  What if GI Joe gives documents to Wikileaks without
the conspiracy?  Is that at terreporter?  So it all depends on whose privacy
is being violated?  This determines if the information activist is a
terrorist, a freedom fighter, a guerilla or a reporter, and determines if GI
Joe is a source or a traitor?  Pentagon Papers = good, Wikileaks = bad?

I see.

spike

 

 

 

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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Dec 19 16:54:37 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 17:54:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
 address
In-Reply-To: <001701cb9ed4$33e8c7e0$9bba57a0$@att.net>
References: <002c01cb9cb0$00716640$015432c0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikcOFspo6ns3Djrm3nWU3FG8A56_rq5fagxpZ+h@mail.gmail.com>
	<004601cb9cbc$3ddf7330$b99e5990$@att.net> <4D09735D.70503@satx.rr.com>
	<006201cb9ccf$ae849940$0b8dcbc0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTin5mZ56-X5Hv1hpYADojjyi8fsGEx5=pU3y=4VP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimBr=zUR6jaPD4f0fc50B6r7qEgKomCHO2gJu0Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-7v3hj+KHrRSnB0pGwTH3Nmg1Oxu7rHSuDfb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinvGo5_C92879hiVncQLvSEJYYoiMY=BySySgZ-@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101217210816.GI9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTi=SFbGr6XkjeCzPs5mAuEBpxZwzN30HcnZ0aPgX@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a401cb9e39$aa275520$fe75ff60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1012180514140.8012@tau.ceti.pl>
	<001701cb9ed4$33e8c7e0$9bba57a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1012191632430.27091@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010, spike wrote:

> ... On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola...
> Subject: Re: [ExI] the ambiguously evil british have leaked julian assange's
> address
> 
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, spike wrote:
> 
> > > I still suspect a trap, as apparently the mainstream 
> > >news outlets do as well.  They still aren't taking the bait as far as I
> know.
> > >Has anyone here seen any of the majors reporting scandalous anything 
> > >based on Wikileaks?
> 
> >...Here in Poland there were some news about how US decided to station a
> battery of Patriot rockets...
> 
> So they say, but:
> 
> >... it has been "uncovered" by journalists (after reading the leaks) that
> they were unloaded...
> 
> So they say, but:
> 
> >Or useless, I reckon...
> 
> On the contrary.  Very useful I reckon.  Reasoning: they deploy the launcher
> trucks with dummy missiles, which are then reported to be scarecrows while
> simultaneously being reported to be fake scarecrows, guys dressed up as
> scarecrows with actual shotguns.  The external view of those trucks is
> identical, regardless of whether they are loaded or not.  So the trucks are
> everywhere, with some unknown fraction carrying weapons.  This provides a
> test case, to see if there are any local guerillas who will try to attack
> the trucks, they believing they carry actual missiles.  If the commies
> conclude that *all* the trucks are dummies, they fire their weapons, they
> are mysteriously shot down by one of the dummy trucks.

Uh-hum. I am not sofisticated enough, so nuances of this strategy are 
beyond my limits of comprehension. My guess is, if you want to attack, you 
just deploy force big enough to overwhelm every known truck, and if some 
happen to be dummies, you're even happier. If you want to make guessing 
your attack harder, you just make a lot of dummy launch sites, dummy 
silos, dummy stores, dummy rockets and dummy warheads. And dummy army 
supporting them.

However, after skimming through first chapter of game theory book, you 
come to a conclusion that it's much better to make no dummies at all. And 
your enemy comes to the same conclusion as well. At least this is what I 
think, but I haven't computed it on paper yet, so I might be wrong.

We don't have guerillas at the moment - unless you count some politicians 
in. They restrict their actions to places where they could be most 
effective, i.e. parliament and surrounding areas, government institutions 
etc.

BTW, I'm not afraid of Russian rockets. War is a business (did they told 
it was about ideals? no, not really). I see no business for them in firing 
rockets, at least as long as they want to sell and we want to buy. Also, I 
guess their rockets are mothballed since at least 10 or 15 years - and 
only time will show if mothballing does them any good.

However, whether leaks are true or false, they weaken our position in
diplomatic relations. Or at a very minimum, for the next few years (maybe 
decade) there is no point in mentioning we are US allies since it doesn't 
sound too well. Just MHO.

[...]
> Imagine an army with plenty of rifles but little ammunition, facing a
> possible invader.  Every third rifle is loaded, the rest have only dummy
> shells.  The soldiers themselves do not know if they are loaded or harmless,
> the invading enemy knows not that there are unloaded weapons.  I can imagine
> that being a very effective deterrent.

See above - you don't want to send people with dummy weapons to the 
battlefield.

> Once the trucks are in place, the dummies can be replaced with real missiles
> at any time or in any proportion, without attracting attention.

If anybody gives a damn about doing this. I see a pattern here and I don't 
like it.

> After all this, I am seeing *plenty* of ways governments could fight
> transparency.

Huh? What's transparency?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 18:54:54 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:54:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>

>Actually we should coin an actual word for those who find money inherently
sexy. Prosperosexual?  Capulationist?  Politician?


42-year-old economaniac seeking long-term investment with like-minded
individual. Into capitalingus, inflatio and quiet evenings by soft-glowing
plasma screen monitoring StockMarketWatch.com. Not interested in having baby
stocks, though do enjoy the occasional junk bond.  Monogamy considered, but
open to diversification experiences too. Come on: take a chance. Last one in
the portfolio is a ponzy!

d.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 12:04 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ... On Behalf Of Tom Nowell
> Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
>
> >...Doesn't the subject line sound like a science publisher's dream?
>
> Hey, it sold me.
>
> >... by Terence Kealey, subtitled "How people evolved to make money"...
>
> Ooooh, that sounds even sexier.
>
> >... this is a book on the history of science viewed through the lens of
> free-market economics...
>
> My favorite lens!
>
> >...I'll stop there as I think I've covered enough ground already, and I've
> probably exceeded the attention span of half the list.  Tom
>
> Don't stop, that discussion was getting me totally turned on.  You had me
> at
> "evolved to make money."  And I am a flaming hetero!
>
>  Prosperosexual?  Capulationist?  Politician?
>
> Very well written post Tom, and an interesting sounding book.  Thanks man.
> {8-]  spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*

spenm
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 19:07:02 2010
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (Mr Jones)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:07:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>

Haha. Loved it!

On Dec 19, 2010 1:55 PM, "Darren Greer" <darren.greer3 at gmail.com> wrote:

>Actually we should coin an actual word for those who find money inherently
sexy. Prosperosexual?  C...
42-year-old economaniac seeking long-term investment with like-minded
individual. Into capitalingus, inflatio and quiet evenings by soft-glowing
plasma screen monitoring StockMarketWatch.com. Not interested in having baby
stocks, though do enjoy the occasional junk bond.  Monogamy considered, but
open to diversification experiences too. Come on: take a chance. Last one in
the portfolio is a ponzy!

d.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 12:04 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> >
> > ... On Behalf Of Tom Nowell
> > Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
> >
> > >...Doesn't the subject ...
>
> >  Prosperosexual?  Capulationist?  Politician?
> >
> > Very well written post Tom, and an interesting s...
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*

spenm

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Dec 19 19:41:27 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 20:41:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org>

.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 02:07:02PM -0500, Mr Jones wrote:
> Haha. Loved it!
> 
> On Dec 19, 2010 1:55 PM, "Darren Greer" <darren.greer3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >Actually we should coin an actual word for those who find money inherently
> sexy. Prosperosexual?  C...
> 42-year-old economaniac seeking long-term investment with like-minded
> individual. Into capitalingus, inflatio and quiet evenings by soft-glowing
> plasma screen monitoring StockMarketWatch.com. Not interested in having baby
> stocks, though do enjoy the occasional junk bond.  Monogamy considered, but
> open to diversification experiences too. Come on: take a chance. Last one in
> the portfolio is a ponzy!
> 
> d.
> 
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 12:04 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > ... On Behalf Of Tom Nowell
> > > Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
> > >
> > > >...Doesn't the subject ...
> >
> > >  Prosperosexual?  Capulationist?  Politician?
> > >
> > > Very well written post Tom, and an interesting s...
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
> *
> 
> spenm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 21:16:51 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:16:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=kssLY0CYHoxPeqiQq56oXdy2zfMcP-sXqCcc4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201012182156.oBILubLT001707@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTi=kssLY0CYHoxPeqiQq56oXdy2zfMcP-sXqCcc4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJQ-MnsufP65B8mPDE=1_GJiCfhj99T4k+m95k@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 December 2010 00:27, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Diets are long-term projects. Therefore if discomfort or suffering is
> involved it is also long-term and the cumulative suffering cost will
> become rather large on the Cost side.
> (This would not apply to the chocolate and ice-cream diet, for example).

The truth is that while I suffered myself some very moderate
withdrawal symptoms for the first 20 or 30 days when I almost entirely
removed grains, potatoes, rice, etc. from my diet some eight or ten
years ago, I did not much else than complying with personal dietary
inclinations already in place, and accepting the pain of fighting
"ideological", but above all social, pressures to conform with the
dietary mainstream ("please, have some cake, I made it with my hands,
just taste it, I am taking offence...") of the same kind I suspect
vegans or muslims or teetotallers are usually better trained and
motivated to resist. ;-)

Thus, I never felt I was renouncing to much, since in spaghetti with
meat balls what I had always found the most interesting was the meat
balls anyway, so that by removing the spaghetti if anything one
improves the experience. ;-)

--
Stefano Vaj


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 21:54:25 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:54:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJQ-MnsufP65B8mPDE=1_GJiCfhj99T4k+m95k@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201012182156.oBILubLT001707@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTi=kssLY0CYHoxPeqiQq56oXdy2zfMcP-sXqCcc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikJQ-MnsufP65B8mPDE=1_GJiCfhj99T4k+m95k@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinHW96wAU5wXi+gArvqvd8yFNwBDxTFc9vJfvzj@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> The truth is that while I suffered myself some very moderate
> withdrawal symptoms for the first 20 or 30 days when I almost entirely
> removed grains, potatoes, rice, etc. from my diet some eight or ten
> years ago, I did not much else than complying with personal dietary
> inclinations already in place, and accepting the pain of fighting
> "ideological", but above all social, pressures to conform with the
> dietary mainstream ("please, have some cake, I made it with my hands,
> just taste it, I am taking offence...") of the same kind I suspect
> vegans or muslims or teetotallers are usually better trained and
> motivated to resist. ;-)
>
> Thus, I never felt I was renouncing to much, since in spaghetti with
> meat balls what I had always found the most interesting was the meat
> balls anyway, so that by removing the spaghetti if anything one
> improves the experience. ;-)
>
>

That is the ideal solution. To find a diet plan that you actually
enjoy (apart from an initial period of adjustment). That would reduce
the Costs side of the equation significantly.
So that even if it turns out that the diet has little effect of your
health or longevity, you still gain, because you enjoy it.  (Provided
that the chosen diet plan doesn't actually cause long-term damage, of
course).

On the other hand, there is the quotation -
"Everything you see, I owe to spaghetti."    Sophia Loren.


BillK
BillK


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 19 21:59:14 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:59:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <53179.87840.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Darren wrote:
"42-year-old economaniac seeking long-term investment with like-minded
individual. Into capitalingus, inflatio and quiet evenings by soft-glowing
plasma screen monitoring StockMarketWatch.com. Not interested in having baby stocks, though do enjoy the occasional junk bond.  Monogamy considered, but open to diversification experiences too. Come on: take a chance. Last one in the portfolio is a ponzy!"

Actually, inflatio probably is a sex act in France. Their politicians keep making Freudian slips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sec9Gkf_tXk and related videos, where Rachida Dati says "Fellation" instead of "Inflation", I believe her quote translates roughly as "Savers are looking for returns in an environment where fellation is practically zero"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udErQWACcaY where a minister talks about "genital prints" rather than "fingerprints"

You see, their well-educated politicians make gaffes every big as J Danforth Quayle and George Walker Bush do in the English language.

Regarding sexual attraction to money, where Kealey touches on evolutionary psychology, he points out that status is a vital part of human motivation and sexuality. Status is equivalent to sexual attractiveness to people belonging to the same group. Money works very well as a proxy for status, acting as a method of keeping score for people participating in a market economy. (Kealey does also mention things like the concubines of egyptian pharaohs and the like, in a section sure to please Spike.) So, sexual attraction to money is no more perverse than finding dyed hair; or the airbrushed models on the cover of a beauty magazine; or internet Z-list celebrity attractive.

Tom


      



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Dec 19 22:15:18 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:15:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>

On 12/19/2010 1:41 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> .

eh?


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 19 22:04:37 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:04:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

So, I was looking through TEDx videos, trying to find a topic to inspire me, when I came across this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl4xppek2gY

People across the world get concerned about linguistic shifts - whether it's non-English speakers getting upset about English infiltrating their language, or British people getting upset about the Americanisation of everything, or the creoles and pidgins and patois that evolve in areas muddying the waters. This talk shows how Urdu has shifted and been referred to by many names over the years, and how the language has changed to reflect its speakers sense of identity. It's amazing how much a language can tell you about its speakers.

Tom


      



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 23:27:34 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:27:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>

>On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
 wrote:

> On 12/19/2010 1:41 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> .
>>
>
> eh?<



Yeah, I was wondering what Eugen's post meant too. Seemed so profound, I was
afraid to respond lest I seem dense. Thanks for taking the plunge, Damien.

Darren

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 12/19/2010 1:41 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
>  .
>>
>
> eh?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From max at maxmore.com  Sun Dec 19 23:32:29 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 18:32:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=kssLY0CYHoxPeqiQq56oXdy2zfMcP-sXqCcc4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201012182156.oBILubLT001707@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTi=kssLY0CYHoxPeqiQq56oXdy2zfMcP-sXqCcc4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101219183229.t89e6f91og4c4w8g@webmail.maxmore.com>

Each person will have to do the cost-benefit calculation individually.  
We all experience both sides of the equation differently. As far as  
I'm concerned, the costs of going paleo are very small. Even when  
traveling, I haven't had much difficulty. It helps that extremely  
stable blood glucose levels mean that I can easily skip a meal without  
hunger.

I don't experience the diet as "restrictive". Since starting, I've  
been eating a much wider variety of meats, fruits, and vegetables  
before. Salads are more colorful and tasty than ever. The diet has  
also spurred me to learn how to cook more dishes. Your terms  
"discomfort", "pain", and "suffering" just don't enter into my  
experience. More familiar would be "pleasure", "satisfaction", and  
"pride" in taking control of my diet.

You also ask: "how do you know that is due to your diet?" I'm quite  
sure my significantly reduced blood pressure is due to the diet. It's  
never been this low, and it dropped immediately after starting paleo.  
My next set of blood tests (which I get regularly) should be another  
good indication, since I haven't radically changed much else relevant  
to those readings.

YMMV

Max


Quoting BillK <pharos at gmail.com>:

> 2010/12/18 Max More wrote:
>> The paleo idea is spreading fast it seems. I'm still not sure about Michael
>> Rose's view that you need not switch to paleo until age 35 or 40 (I haven't
>> yet found a clear explanation of that, though I'm starting to read a pre-pub
>> version of his co-authored 2011 book that might satisfy), but I'm urging
>> everyone to at least read up on this approach, if they are serious about
>> improving health and longevity.
>>
>>
>
>
> I have a big problem with special diets. Basically it comes down to
> Cost / Benefit analysis.
>
> Diets are long-term projects. Therefore if discomfort or suffering is
> involved it is also long-term and the cumulative suffering cost will
> become rather large on the Cost side.
> (This would not apply to the chocolate and ice-cream diet, for example).
>
> On the other hand, feeling healthier and possibly living longer get
> added to the Benefit side of the equation.
>
> The trouble is, the Costs are added daily and the pain is felt every
> day, guaranteed.
>
> The Benefits are more problematical. You may feel good every day, but
> how do you know that is due to your diet? You might be generally
> healthy no matter what you eat - within reason.
> You won't know if you will live longer for another 50 years. And
> again, how do you prove it is due to your diet? Some heavy smokers
> live to be 100. And you might get crushed by a falling piano next
> year.
>
> These long life diet plans always make me think of the Ninja warriors
> in Hollywood films who train daily for twenty years, then meet the
> American hero who pulls out a gun and shoots them dead. So much for
> their twenty years training!
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
The Proactionary Project
Vice Chair, Humanity+
Founder, Extropy Institute




From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 19 23:39:29 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:39:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimUVgfXhDi3YtYRLyOP_4dXEXVHHiqLFOcCWEL-@mail.gmail.com>

>People across the world get concerned about linguistic shifts - whether
it's non-English speakers getting upset about English infiltrating their
language, or British people getting upset about the Americanisation of
everything, or the creoles and pidgins and patois that evolve in areas
muddying the waters. This talk shows how Urdu has shifted and been referred
to by many names over the years, and how the language has changed to reflect
its speakers sense of identity. It's amazing how much a language can tell
you about its speakers.<

I dated a linguist once. His big claim-to-fame was speaking and writing
Tolkien's elvish. He introduced me to the concept of post-scriptivisim vs.
descriptivism. Those who would have new words officially monitored and
approved for usage by academics, and those who would have a more organic
growth based on popular usage alone. I've been a descriptivist ever since.
 I can't imagine a transhumanist who wasn't.

d.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> So, I was looking through TEDx videos, trying to find a topic to inspire
> me, when I came across this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl4xppek2gY
>
> People across the world get concerned about linguistic shifts - whether
> it's non-English speakers getting upset about English infiltrating their
> language, or British people getting upset about the Americanisation of
> everything, or the creoles and pidgins and patois that evolve in areas
> muddying the waters. This talk shows how Urdu has shifted and been referred
> to by many names over the years, and how the language has changed to reflect
> its speakers sense of identity. It's amazing how much a language can tell
> you about its speakers.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 19 23:48:50 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 23:48:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Darren wrote: "I dated a linguist once. His big claim-to-fame was speaking and writing  Tolkien's elvish. He introduced me to the concept of post-scriptivisim vs. descriptivism. Those who would have new words officially monitored and approved for usage by academics, and those who would have a more organic growth based on popular usage alone. I've been a descriptivist ever since. I can't imagine a transhumanist who wasn't."

Neither could FM-2030 - in his book "Are You a Transhuman?: Monitoring and Stimulating Your Personal Rate of Growth in a Rapidly Changing World" he included quizzes for a variety of things, and Chapter 1 is "how updated is your vocabulary?"

(wikipedia directed me to a copy at 
http://fm-2030.narod.ru/ARE_YOU_A_TRANSHUMAN.pdf - interesting, but I don't know how many would respond to that format these days)

Tom


      



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 20 00:06:42 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:06:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <53179.87840.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<53179.87840.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006c01cb9fd9$c8656940$59303bc0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Tom Nowell
>...(Kealey does also mention things like the concubines of egyptian
pharaohs and the like, in a section sure to please Spike.)...

Ja, it works for me, thanks Tom.  {8-]

 >...So, sexual attraction to money is no more perverse than finding dyed
hair; or the airbrushed models on the cover of a beauty magazine; or
internet Z-list celebrity attractive.  Tom

I have long thought that the whole money-as-a-sexual-attractant notion has
traditionally gotten a bad rap that it doesn't deserve.  I am pleased to
live in a world where wealth can (to some extent) serve as a proxy for
actual sexual attractiveness, for the latter is so random, so genetic.  One
is born with it or without it, or with more or less of it, whereas one has
the option of working one's ass off, or being especially diligent in saving
and investing and so forth.  Thus one can actually earn a certain amount of
sexual attractiveness to compensate for what nature failed to supply.  So
what's the big crime in that?  

Do we not you remember (with disdain) high school?  No one had any money
back then, so we geeks were forced to compensate for lack of attractiveness
by actually being nice, and kindhearted, and all that, oy vey.  Now all we
need is to have a ton of money.  Such a deal!  And for some, the whole being
nice thing still works (even without money) for those who are good at it,
such as John Grigg.  If you meet him you will know exactly what I mean.  

But the Beatles had it all wrong with that whole money can't buy me love
biz.  It damn well should be able to.  In any ideal world, we should be able
to buy a certain amount of beauty.  I begrudge no one for either buying
sexual attractiveness, or for selling that which nature so generously
bestowed on the fortunate few.

spike












From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 20 00:38:50 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 18:38:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org>
	<4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>

On 12/19/2010 5:27 PM, Darren Greer wrote:
>         .

>     eh?

> Yeah, I was wondering what Eugen's post meant too. Seemed so profound, I
> was afraid to respond lest I seem dense.

I was tempted to ask, "What's your point?"


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 00:54:32 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 20:54:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote:


>I was tempted to ask, "What's your point?"<

If you don't make one, you don't have to defend one. I'm assuming it it was
a premature hit "send" but truly: I'm dumb enough that I require an
explanation. You suppose someone with a 10 000 I.Q. would respond that way?
Baffle us all? Admit it Eugen: you've been uploaded.

Darren

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 12/19/2010 5:27 PM, Darren Greer wrote:
>
>>        .
>>
>
>     eh?
>>
>
>  Yeah, I was wondering what Eugen's post meant too. Seemed so profound, I
>> was afraid to respond lest I seem dense.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Dec 20 01:21:22 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:21:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org>
	<4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>	<4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D0EAF92.7030400@satx.rr.com>

On 12/19/2010 6:54 PM, Darren Greer wrote:

>  >I was tempted to ask, "What's your point?"<
>
> If you don't make one, you don't have to defend one.

But Eugen did make one. A point, a palpable point. Look, here it is again:

.

Watch it jump about:

                .
     .                            .
         .


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 01:25:07 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:25:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <4D0EAF92.7030400@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0EAF92.7030400@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin-hHSEYTg=qdmJHh2NZVDB10Unargk9hkD7=yB@mail.gmail.com>

loll

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 12/19/2010 6:54 PM, Darren Greer wrote:
>
>   >I was tempted to ask, "What's your point?"<
>>
>> If you don't make one, you don't have to defend one.
>>
>
> But Eugen did make one. A point, a palpable point. Look, here it is again:
>
> .
>
> Watch it jump about:
>
>               .
>    .                            .
>
>        .
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 01:35:11 2010
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (Mr Jones)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 20:35:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinqMfB7fpszUDnr6kRwMSs5oF4Pm=noCG8jYcOT@mail.gmail.com>

*sticks his neck out* It was his way of agreeing with me.  I'm guessing he
found it as entertaining as me.

On Dec 19, 2010 7:55 PM, "Darren Greer" <darren.greer3 at gmail.com> wrote:

Damien wrote:


>I was tempted to ask, "What's your point?"<
If you don't make one, you don't have to defend one. I'm assuming it it was
a premature hit "send" but truly: I'm dumb enough that I require an
explanation. You suppose someone with a 10 000 I.Q. would respond that way?
Baffle us all? Admit it Eugen: you've been uploaded.

Darren

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
wrote:

> >
> > On 12/19/2010 5:27 PM, Darren Greer wrote:
> >>
> >>        .
> >
> >
> >>    eh?
> >
> >
> >> Yeah, I was wonde...
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.e...
>



-- 
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From jebdm at jebdm.net  Mon Dec 20 03:24:14 2010
From: jebdm at jebdm.net (Jebadiah Moore)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:24:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimUVgfXhDi3YtYRLyOP_4dXEXVHHiqLFOcCWEL-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimUVgfXhDi3YtYRLyOP_4dXEXVHHiqLFOcCWEL-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJ10L42uB=GGi9OT7JZ+wcF5StPGwMHBwh37za@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/19 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>

> I dated a linguist once. His big claim-to-fame was speaking and writing
> Tolkien's elvish. He introduced me to the concept of post-scriptivisim vs.
> descriptivism. Those who would have new words officially monitored and
> approved for usage by academics, and those who would have a more organic
> growth based on popular usage alone. I've been a descriptivist ever since.
>  I can't imagine a transhumanist who wasn't.
>

I think the term you want is "prescriptivism", as in "prescribed".  It's not
necessarily about words being officially monitored (as is the case in
several European countries--though sometimes this is done by bureaucrats
rather than academics) as much as it is about the idea that there is some
sort of right and wrong in language use.  Anytime somebody says "that's not
good English" or "never end a sentence with a preposition" or "ain't ain't a
word" or even "learn to spell", they are demonstrating linguistic
prescriptivism.

It's not quite as clear-cut a thing as you make it out to be, though, and
most linguists wouldn't say that they were prescriptivists or
descriptivists--it's not a political affiliation.  Linguistics, as a
(social) science, is descriptive in nature; in this sense, most linguists
are opposed to prescription because it introduces bias.  On the other hand,
just as physicists aren't anti-engineering and political scientists aren't
anti-government (at least all the time ;)), linguists are not all
anti-prescription in general.

The problem is that without prescription, languages diverge faster.  Of
course, people will tend to modify their language minimally, since it
decreases their intelligibility to others, but without some oversight (at
least from parents and teachers) it still can happen more rapidly than is
ideal.  This can be especially problematic in specialized fields, and in
language modalities which are less commonly used.  In specialized fields,
the lack of standard definitions for words, leading to decreased
intelligibility across time and between groups, can greatly inhibit
progress; just look at philosophy!  I kid, but it is clear that this has
been a motivation at least within bureaucracies and other systems which use
old texts in a modern context.  In these cases, while you don't usually get
the specialized part of the language standardized across the majority of
speakers, you do usually get a standardization within the field, so that all
lawyers or bureaucrats or priests speak a standardized language variant, at
least while they're doing their work.

So, what I'm getting at is that it's not as clear-cut a thing as you've
implied.  Of course, there are some linguists who (nominally) oppose
prescriptivism in all forms, usually on the basis that it is oppressive,
exclusionary, and inhibits language development; but most of these same
linguists would be annoyed if you started calling them "describers" or
"anti-word-dictators".  I think the mainstream view among linguists is that
prescriptivism in everyday language is usually counter-productive (except
sometimes with regard to spelling and writing, since there is often
significant random divergence there without some enforcement from teachers).
 On the other hand, most linguists usually favor at least a weak form of
prescription in specialized fields.

(IANNAL)

-- 
Jebadiah Moore
http://blog.jebdm.net
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 20 07:53:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 23:53:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <005f01cb9c7a$7c22a6e0$7467f4a0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1292414401.6124.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AE3A2339-A91A-47B9-99C5-F25587409A09@me.com>
	<005f01cb9c7a$7c22a6e0$7467f4a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <000001cba01b$02a7bea0$07f73be0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
.

 

>.I notice none of the news majors are reporting.  Perhaps they suspect a
trap?  We have seen it before.  Maybe.  spike

 

 

OK I now see one of the news majors reporting on specific material on
wikileaks.  Yemen left radioactive material unguarded:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/20/wikileaks-yemen-nuclear-material-uns
ecured/

 

Oy vey.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Dec 20 08:28:56 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:28:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20101220082856.GZ9434@leitl.org>

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 04:15:18PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote:
> On 12/19/2010 1:41 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
>> .
>
> eh?

I was thinking that adding a dot at the top was enough reason
to quote the entire message. Since we don't appreciate each
other's time anymore and do not bother with quoting
properly, I decided to join the fray. Wheeeee! This is fun!!!

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Dec 20 11:27:00 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:27:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqMfB7fpszUDnr6kRwMSs5oF4Pm=noCG8jYcOT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinqMfB7fpszUDnr6kRwMSs5oF4Pm=noCG8jYcOT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101220112659.GI9434@leitl.org>

.

boing

boing

boing

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 08:35:11PM -0500, Mr Jones wrote:
> *sticks his neck out* It was his way of agreeing with me.  I'm guessing he
> found it as entertaining as me.
> 
> On Dec 19, 2010 7:55 PM, "Darren Greer" <darren.greer3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Damien wrote:
> 
> 
> >I was tempted to ask, "What's your point?"<
> If you don't make one, you don't have to defend one. I'm assuming it it was
> a premature hit "send" but truly: I'm dumb enough that I require an
> explanation. You suppose someone with a 10 000 I.Q. would respond that way?
> Baffle us all? Admit it Eugen: you've been uploaded.
> 
> Darren
> 
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > On 12/19/2010 5:27 PM, Darren Greer wrote:
> > >>
> > >>        .
> > >
> > >
> > >>    eh?
> > >
> > >
> > >> Yeah, I was wonde...
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.e...
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 12:13:40 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:13:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <20101220112659.GI9434@leitl.org>
References: <888253.49720.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<000b01cb9f96$5bf3db90$13db92b0$@att.net>
	<AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinqMfB7fpszUDnr6kRwMSs5oF4Pm=noCG8jYcOT@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101220112659.GI9434@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDhP6YOAjsBWSkjhfrHVO+vYS65wUh4NX63FbB@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> .
>
> boing
>
> boing
>
> boing
>
>


Gmail automatically hides quoted text, so you can quote pages of uncut
threads and all I see is your new text.  The system now hides users
misbehaviour.


BillK


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 13:34:14 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:34:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJ10L42uB=GGi9OT7JZ+wcF5StPGwMHBwh37za@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimUVgfXhDi3YtYRLyOP_4dXEXVHHiqLFOcCWEL-@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikJ10L42uB=GGi9OT7JZ+wcF5StPGwMHBwh37za@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXjQz+sAWn-RF+xLZJwbX3tGg17KnMR7bFoacu@mail.gmail.com>

yes, you're right and I wasn't.  It is prescriptivism, not post. It's been
in issue in Canada, because of the Quebec language/culture thing. Thanks.

d.

2010/12/19 Jebadiah Moore <jebdm at jebdm.net>

> 2010/12/19 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
>
> I dated a linguist once. His big claim-to-fame was speaking and writing
>> Tolkien's elvish. He introduced me to the concept of post-scriptivisim vs.
>> descriptivism. Those who would have new words officially monitored and
>> approved for usage by academics, and those who would have a more organic
>> growth based on popular usage alone. I've been a descriptivist ever since.
>>  I can't imagine a transhumanist who wasn't.
>>
>
> I think the term you want is "prescriptivism", as in "prescribed".  It's
> not necessarily about words being officially monitored (as is the case in
> several European countries--though sometimes this is done by bureaucrats
> rather than academics) as much as it is about the idea that there is some
> sort of right and wrong in language use.  Anytime somebody says "that's not
> good English" or "never end a sentence with a preposition" or "ain't ain't a
> word" or even "learn to spell", they are demonstrating linguistic
> prescriptivism.
>
> It's not quite as clear-cut a thing as you make it out to be, though, and
> most linguists wouldn't say that they were prescriptivists or
> descriptivists--it's not a political affiliation.  Linguistics, as a
> (social) science, is descriptive in nature; in this sense, most linguists
> are opposed to prescription because it introduces bias.  On the other hand,
> just as physicists aren't anti-engineering and political scientists aren't
> anti-government (at least all the time ;)), linguists are not all
> anti-prescription in general.
>
> The problem is that without prescription, languages diverge faster.  Of
> course, people will tend to modify their language minimally, since it
> decreases their intelligibility to others, but without some oversight (at
> least from parents and teachers) it still can happen more rapidly than is
> ideal.  This can be especially problematic in specialized fields, and in
> language modalities which are less commonly used.  In specialized fields,
> the lack of standard definitions for words, leading to decreased
> intelligibility across time and between groups, can greatly inhibit
> progress; just look at philosophy!  I kid, but it is clear that this has
> been a motivation at least within bureaucracies and other systems which use
> old texts in a modern context.  In these cases, while you don't usually get
> the specialized part of the language standardized across the majority of
> speakers, you do usually get a standardization within the field, so that all
> lawyers or bureaucrats or priests speak a standardized language variant, at
> least while they're doing their work.
>
> So, what I'm getting at is that it's not as clear-cut a thing as you've
> implied.  Of course, there are some linguists who (nominally) oppose
> prescriptivism in all forms, usually on the basis that it is oppressive,
> exclusionary, and inhibits language development; but most of these same
> linguists would be annoyed if you started calling them "describers" or
> "anti-word-dictators".  I think the mainstream view among linguists is that
> prescriptivism in everyday language is usually counter-productive (except
> sometimes with regard to spelling and writing, since there is often
> significant random divergence there without some enforcement from teachers).
>  On the other hand, most linguists usually favor at least a weak form of
> prescription in specialized fields.
>
> (IANNAL)
>
> --
> Jebadiah Moore
> http://blog.jebdm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Dec 20 13:55:17 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:55:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sex, Science & Profits
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikDhP6YOAjsBWSkjhfrHVO+vYS65wUh4NX63FbB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikWMt14AERuuNRDmNm=n5ynFrGtewii9YCbTFeG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimQNO=Rdk=Dir7s3HawBQz73G89q9VCjF0DTMqr@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101219194126.GX9434@leitl.org> <4D0E83F6.2080305@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiksHgkPi60M=SN_Rx6KS3yF7tvTqmsCF5_naRp2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D0EA59A.9000300@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimzwgCHVnN9Nzr_yvDH3B86k_FEXy81gyJ574Hz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinqMfB7fpszUDnr6kRwMSs5oF4Pm=noCG8jYcOT@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101220112659.GI9434@leitl.org>
	<AANLkTikDhP6YOAjsBWSkjhfrHVO+vYS65wUh4NX63FbB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101220135517.GB16518@leitl.org>

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:13:40PM +0000, BillK wrote:

> Gmail automatically hides quoted text, so you can quote pages of uncut

Yes, some proprietary systems will do things. Other systems will do
other things. It's good that Gmail works out for you. It doesn't
mean we should all apply for an account with teh GOOG, and read
email just from there henceforth. 

Hiding quoted text is not the problem. Just pooping text at the 
top without bothering to supply context just because it saves
time on your end is definitely a problem. Assuming that threading
will take care of it assumes that email clients don't munge
headers, or that users will honor starting new threads by
not replying to existing ones. Alas, too many of them do.

People who're unaware or don't care are typically not worth
reading. Lists which tolerate such behaviour degrade to the
point where they're not worth reading. Please, keep list hygiene.
Do not poop into the channel. We, who drink from this stream,
thank you.

> threads and all I see is your new text.  The system now hides users
> misbehaviour.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 20 16:53:18 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:53:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <952081.61159.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Languages change. Nothing's static here. It might just be that the pace of 
change is faster today or more noticeable -- since we went through a period of 
rapid standardization with the proliferation of printing and then of nation 
states.

Regards,

Dan


From: Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk>
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 5:04:37 PM
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts

So, I was looking through TEDx videos, trying to find a topic to inspire me, 
when I came across this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl4xppek2gY

People across the world get concerned about linguistic shifts - whether it's 
non-English speakers getting upset about English infiltrating their language, or 
British people getting upset about the Americanisation of everything, or the 
creoles and pidgins and patois that evolve in areas muddying the waters. This 
talk shows how Urdu has shifted and been referred to by many names over the 
years, and how the language has changed to reflect its speakers sense of 
identity. It's amazing how much a language can tell you about its speakers.

Tom
?
______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 17:43:57 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:43:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] NYTimes.com: Decoding the Human Brain,
	With Help From a Fly
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimkZWa2kKbY4ApiaRzE5Gf6U4oHuRMzhMYtNgNj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4d07b9b7.818c2a0a.1289.6b48SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
	<AANLkTimkZWa2kKbY4ApiaRzE5Gf6U4oHuRMzhMYtNgNj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim9RFxX9EsYTo8XeWmn3-mfibFCPo+_ZCvRt5k5@mail.gmail.com>

2010/12/14 Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>:
> In terms similar to those that define computers, the team describes the
> general architecture of the fly?s brain as composed of 41 local processing
> units, 58 tracts that link the units to other parts of the brain, and six
> hubs.

Come on! Being biological, they *must* exhibit some incredibly exotic
God-imparted and/or "quantum" nature... ;-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Dec 20 18:11:14 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:11:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <952081.61159.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <511195.80326.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<952081.61159.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20101220181114.GQ16518@leitl.org>

.

po0t

.

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 08:53:18AM -0800, Dan wrote:
> Languages change. Nothing's static here. It might just be that the pace of 
> change is faster today or more noticeable -- since we went through a period of 
> rapid standardization with the proliferation of printing and then of nation 
> states.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> From: Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 5:04:37 PM
> Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
> 
> So, I was looking through TEDx videos, trying to find a topic to inspire me, 
> when I came across this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl4xppek2gY
> 
> People across the world get concerned about linguistic shifts - whether it's 
> non-English speakers getting upset about English infiltrating their language, or 
> British people getting upset about the Americanisation of everything, or the 
> creoles and pidgins and patois that evolve in areas muddying the waters. This 
> talk shows how Urdu has shifted and been referred to by many names over the 
> years, and how the language has changed to reflect its speakers sense of 
> identity. It's amazing how much a language can tell you about its speakers.
> 
> Tom
> ?
> ______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Dec 20 19:19:25 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:19:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who is safe?
In-Reply-To: <000001cba01b$02a7bea0$07f73be0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1292414401.6124.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AE3A2339-A91A-47B9-99C5-F25587409A09@me.com>
	<005f01cb9c7a$7c22a6e0$7467f4a0$@att.net>
	<000001cba01b$02a7bea0$07f73be0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201012202033.oBKKXp2q010529@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>OK I now see one of the news majors reporting on specific material 
>on wikileaks.  Yemen left radioactive material unguarded:
>
>http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/20/wikileaks-yemen-nuclear-material-unsecured/ 
>
>
>Oy vey.

I don't think you're allowed to say that in Yemen....


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Dec 20 22:33:40 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:33:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
Message-ID: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>


A few years ago a treaty was signed which was to counteract global warming
by reducing carbon dioxide emissions.  I see from the weather patterns
everywhere  this week good evidence that it is working.

{8^D

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1968828/odd_weather_patterns_bring_summ
er_snow_to_australia/

http://www.thirdage.com/news/mammoth-mountain-receives-9-feet-snow_12-20-201
0

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101219/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_weather

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101217/ap_on_re_eu/eu_europe_weather

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/world/europe/21snow.html

Yes I know, weather is not climate.

Happy solstice to all and to all a good night!  {8-]

spike








From nymphomation at gmail.com  Mon Dec 20 23:11:07 2010
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 23:11:07 +0000
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 December 2010 22:33, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> A few years ago a treaty was signed which was to counteract global warming
> by reducing carbon dioxide emissions. ?I see from the weather patterns
> everywhere ?this week good evidence that it is working.
>
> {8^D
>
> http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1968828/odd_weather_patterns_bring_summ
> er_snow_to_australia/
>
> http://www.thirdage.com/news/mammoth-mountain-receives-9-feet-snow_12-20-201
> 0
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101219/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_weather
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101217/ap_on_re_eu/eu_europe_weather
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/world/europe/21snow.html
>
> Yes I know, weather is not climate.

Good thing, that sort of talk could get you in trouble..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-F8EO3qOVk

=:o)

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 21 03:28:02 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:28:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Paleo/primal health
In-Reply-To: <4CE57DE3.8040708@gnolls.org>
References: <mailman.1.1290081602.9606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4CE57DE3.8040708@gnolls.org>
Message-ID: <4D101EC2.4020403@satx.rr.com>

My wife Barbara Lamar is posting a series about her experiments with 
paleo-like diet:

<http://huerto-de-altamira.blogspot.com/2010/12/low-cost-healthy-diet.html>

<http://huerto-de-altamira.blogspot.com/2010/12/very-agrarian-meal.html>

and here's Barbara riding the rails...

<http://huerto-de-altamira.blogspot.com/2010/10/not-all-politicians-are-afraid-to.html>

Damien Broderick


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 21 09:45:20 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 02:45:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Will the upcoming big-budget Hollywood "H+" film lead to
 confusion for the H+ transhumanist organization?
Message-ID: <AANLkTimpzGxexo+qJjLXBs=nCbkXSJGp=x-bpNwKF-eL@mail.gmail.com>

Bryan Singer (X-Men, Superman) is doing a film titled "H+" where many
people have the net directly connected to their brains and nervous
systems, but then a virus infects them and billions die!  I wonder to
what extent the name of this film will lead to major confusion for the
H+ transhumanist organization?

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/h-tv-show-produced-by-x-men-director.html

John


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Dec 21 11:29:49 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:29:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Will the upcoming big-budget Hollywood "H+" film lead to
 confusion for the H+ transhumanist organization?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimpzGxexo+qJjLXBs=nCbkXSJGp=x-bpNwKF-eL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimpzGxexo+qJjLXBs=nCbkXSJGp=x-bpNwKF-eL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D108FAD.4090305@aleph.se>

On 2010-12-21 10:45, John Grigg wrote:
> Bryan Singer (X-Men, Superman) is doing a film titled "H+" where many
> people have the net directly connected to their brains and nervous
> systems, but then a virus infects them and billions die!  I wonder to
> what extent the name of this film will lead to major confusion for the
> H+ transhumanist organization?

Or vice versa... if they are stupid enough to use a term that "belongs" 
to another group, it means a lot of traffic is going to go to 
transhumanist sites. Plenty of opportunity to not just do rebuttals (who 
reads those) but to play around with the meaning of the film.

My guess is that H+ is the working name and then they change it to 
something else in order to avoid this kind of messiness, the risk of 
domain name squatting and losing advertising money...

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Dec 21 11:32:02 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:32:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>

The NAO (North Atlantic Oscillation) is pretty cool actually. It is a 
fine example of how the weight of eigenmode can fluctuate. It can be 
modeled rather elegantly as a differential equation driven with noise.

The current ensemble forecasts of the NAO index
http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/nao.shtml
suggest that we will be having more nasty winter weather until at least 
middle January.

Most likely it is not strongly climate coupled, according to what I have 
read myself and discussed with the Oxford climate scientists. Not quite 
weather, but definitely not climate either. And since NAO and a bunch of 
the other oscillatory modes are connected in a messy way we shouldn't be 
too surprised by correlated unusual weather.


(OK, time to start preparing for getting out into the Swedish snow 
rather than sit in front of the cozy broadband connection...)

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Dec 21 11:31:58 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:31:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>

An interesting take on language evolution came up during our roleplaying 
game session yesterday. Set in the post-singularity universe of Eclipse 
Phase, a young transhuman kid was talking to the crusty spaceship 
old-timer (born sometime around 2010!) Their personal AIs were 
struggling to translate the slang either used, since the same word had 
changed meaning so many times between them ("I think your owner is 
thinking of 'munchkin' in the game-meaning, not the software, economic, 
documentary or biotech sense... unless he is talking about asteroids, of 
course")

Automated translation will always suffer from the dynamics of real 
languages. Not to mention the effects of automatic translation - we 
adapt our languages to the technology, so if translation is easy people 
will talk in such a way that their talk can be translated well enough, 
not in the "right" way.

Och of course vi speak flytande Swenglish here i Sweden these dagar.

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 21 12:44:04 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 08:44:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] "The Future Soon" - Jonathan Coulton
Message-ID: <AANLkTikFc2smSDatTc5PF+8ByscLjW2QOUtXDUgof7Zg@mail.gmail.com>

Another transhuman-ish song by Jonathan Coulton


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDiDK_yBCw0&feature=fvst


-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 21 13:18:56 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:18:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <595870.10765.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>... On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj

> >> Alan, I like your tagline. ?As Judge Hudson said today, health care
> reform is a laudable goal, but it must be done legally.
> 
> >Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj
> 
> Yes because it predated the constitution.


LOL, spoken like a true American, spike!

I suppose it's only failed revolutions that are not 'legal'.  History is written by the victors, as they say.

Ben Zaiboc


      



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 21 13:31:59 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:31:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <998790.52453.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 15:29:46 -0600
From: Max More <max at maxmore.com>
To: Extropy-Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
Message-ID: <201012182156.oBILubLT001707 at andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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Is it fair to ask that posters post in plain text?

Max wrote:
> <html>
> <body>
> That reflects my experience too, since going full paleo more than two
> months ago. When I ate more carbs, even though they were often from
> double-fiber whole wheat bread, I would want to eat frequently. On a
> paleo diet, I can easily go for quite a few hours without *needing* to
> eat.<br><br>
> The paleo idea is spreading fast it seems. I'm still not sure about
> Michael Rose's view that you need not switch to paleo until age 35 or 40
> (I haven't yet found a clear explanation of that, though I'm starting to
> read a pre-pub version of his co-authored 2011 book that might satisfy),
> but I'm urging everyone to at least read up on this approach, if they are
> serious about improving health and longevity.<br><br>
> Max<br><br>
> <br>
> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
> <font face="Courier New, Courier">On 12 December 2010 21:28, spike
> &lt;spike66 at att.net&gt; wrote:<br>
> &gt; I suggest nothing too<br>
> &gt; painful, just something that adjusts one's attitude a bit.<br><br>
> I suspect most &quot;pain&quot; in any less-than-36-hours fasting to be
> just glucose/insuline withdrawal symptoms.<br><br>
> Personally, in a diet based on fish, meat, green vegetables and some
> nuts, if I have something more interesting to do I do not suffer much, or
> rather at all, by not eating anything for such a period.<br><br>
> If anything, I enjoy a little more my steak at the end... :-)<br><br>
> --<br>
> Stefano Vaj<br>


I've just had an experience that confirms this. Been eating broadly palaeo for a few weeks, and feeling a lot better for it, no hunger pangs, eating meals farther apart, but recently I was in a situation where that was just not really possible without a lot of inconvenience, and I've abruptly reversed the gradual weight loss (gained a kilo in a week), been more hungry and irritable and felt the need to eat more frequently than I've got used to.  And felt the irresistible call of croissants for breakfast this morning!  Now I have to go through the process of weaning myself off wheat all over again..

Ben Zaiboc


      



From max at maxmore.com  Tue Dec 21 14:33:46 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 08:33:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
Message-ID: <201012211433.oBLEXv7l020105@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


>
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: 
><http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20101218/9b0aa4ff/attachment-0001.html>
>
>
>Is it fair to ask that posters post in plain text?

Yes. Sorry about that. I didn't realize Eudora was sending it out as 
anything else (and it came back to me as plain text). Must have had 
some formatted text quoted and accidentally hit the "Styled" button 
when sending. My bad, as I'm told the young people say these days.

Max



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 21 16:36:33 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 08:36:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
...

>Most likely it is not strongly climate coupled, according to what I have
read myself and discussed with the Oxford climate scientists. Not quite
weather, but definitely not climate either. And since NAO and a bunch of the
other oscillatory modes are connected in a messy way we shouldn't be too
surprised by correlated unusual weather.--Anders Sandberg

.
.

But Anders, I am so puzzled.  We were assured the science was *settled* on
all this.  When I looked at it, the science sure as hell didn't look settled
to me.  Doesn't still now.

The problem I see once again with the current European cold snap is that
while the global climate may be warming, humans perceive weather.  And
people vote and pay taxes.  At least twice now we have seen major global
warming conventions during a local freak cold snap.  In both cases nothing
of any significance came of them, for reasons very possibly related to
weather.  

Any solution to global warming must be market driven as opposed to
politically driven.  It might not work, but it must sell.  Local freak warm
snaps will help them sell.  Cold spells will hurt sales.  The critical point
is overall sales.

spike












From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 21 16:49:32 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 08:49:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] Linguistic shifts

...

>...Och of course vi speak flytande Swenglish here i Sweden these dagar.

I can translate that:  "Eh, of course I speak a mixture of English and
Swedish, but here in Sweden I carry this really big knife."

>...Automated translation will always suffer from the dynamics of real
languages. Not to mention the effects of automatic translation - we adapt
our languages to the technology, so if translation is easy people will talk
in such a way that their talk can be translated well enough, not in the
"right" way.Anders Sandberg

So we need to think of adapting language in such a way that automated
translation effectively translates it.  A good technical paper is already
written that way: engineering terms are often universal, mathematical
equations are exactly universal.  So we start by eliminating figures of
speech specific to our own cultures, and migrate towards words that have
more universal and very specific meanings.

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 21 17:34:19 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 09:34:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] a good day for liberty
In-Reply-To: <595870.10765.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<595870.10765.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001cba135$4cc04a00$e640de00$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
...
> 
>> >Why, was the American Revolution done legally? ;-) Stefano Vaj
> 
>> Yes because it predated the constitution.


>...LOL, spoken like a true American, spike!

You are too kind sir.  {8-]

>...I suppose it's only failed revolutions that are not 'legal'.  History is
written by the victors, as they say...Ben Zaiboc

Exactly!  This works for markets as well.  Consider the early days of video
tape, when we had VHS and Beta.  Sony's Beta was actually a technically
superior product, but few know that today, since the more open tech VHS won
in the marketplace.

But back to history, I did some studying after the initial discussion here,
and learned some interesting revisionist history regarding the origins of
the Declaration of Independence and the US constitution.  According to some
sources (which I didn't keep but now need to find again) the early acts of
civil disobedience in the American colonies in the 1770s were not about
taxes but rather about abolition of slavery.  Many vocal colonists wanted to
abolish slavery in the colonies, but King George of England insisted that
the colonies were under British law, which allowed it.  The Brithish
reminded the local colonial governments they had not the authority to
overrule the crown.

This is compelling, once one realizes that around 70% of the signers of the
Declaration had no slaves.  Some sources argue that the comment "...all men
are created equal..." with divine right to "...life, liberty and the pursuit
of happiness..." were put in there specifically and with the intent to set
the stage for freeing all remaining slaves.  This effort failed of course,
and set the stage for a horrifying war nearly a century later.

spike










From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 21 18:21:41 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:21:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D10F035.6070104@satx.rr.com>

On 12/21/2010 10:49 AM, spike wrote:

> So we start by eliminating figures of
> speech specific to our own cultures, and migrate towards words that have
> more universal and very specific meanings.

Esperanto hasn't exactly taken over the world.

You might have noticed that generational and other tribalisms go in 
exactly the opposite direction: mutations, ellipses, neologisms, 
inversions.

And I suspect that as the global landscape becomes ever-more 
interconnected and blandized, there will be an increasing pressure to 
reclaim or invent linguistic differences. That might well occur parallel 
to the "business/political" trend to uniformity, but as ever more humans 
drop out the loop of production and marginal political influence I can 
foresee an increase in creoles that are deliberately unintelligible to 
Others, especially the hegemonic. (AI translators will presumably have 
little trouble keeping up, although it might be expedient/polite not to 
make that too obvious.)

Damien Broderick



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 21 19:14:21 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:14:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <4D10F035.6070104@satx.rr.com>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
	<4D10F035.6070104@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001e01cba143$4643f290$d2cbd7b0$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
Subject: Re: [ExI] Linguistic shifts

On 12/21/2010 10:49 AM, spike wrote:

>> So we start by eliminating figures of
>> speech specific to our own cultures, and migrate towards words that 
>> have more universal and very specific meanings.

>...Esperanto hasn't exactly taken over the world...

Ja, and it shouldn't.  The point is not to invest one's own limited biodisk
memorizing a new language, but rather to modify one's own speech in one's
own language (keeping the charming accents such as Australian).  The goal is
to use a kind of a subset of our own language where each word and usage is
more perfectly machine-translatable.

Many of us have flown on airlines where we have the option of listening to
the cockpit radio chatter.  That is an example of a language that is based
on English but is actually a subset: the vocabulary is very specific.  

A good example is seen in an airline crash in NJ a few years ago, where the
flight engineer made a mistake in the fuel calcs but used language outside
the airliner-tower subset.  As the plane was coming in he knew he was low on
fuel, got on the radio and said "... ah well I think we need priority..."
The tower didn't know what he was talking about.  Had he said "Avianca 052
mayday mayday mayday, fuel critical, request 27 over."  The tower would have
come back and said "Roger Avianca 052 cleared to land 27 over."  Then ATC
would get  everyone else the hell outta the way, knowing a really big really
thirsty bird was coming down.  But the English-speaking New York air traffic
controllers could not interpret "I think I need priority to land" and that
aircraft fuel starved and crashed, ending the lives of 73 proles on 19 July
1989.

We can derive machine-translatable disambiguated subsets of our own
languages, completely based on our own languages.

>...You might have noticed that generational and other tribalisms go in
exactly the opposite direction: mutations, ellipses, neologisms, inversions.

Ja!  We could even have street-slang based machine translatable subsets of
language.  Recall Barbara Billingsley translating jive in Airplane:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymMBEwtRZOg

We need not memorize a new language, but rather derive a subset, like
Winston's comrade tried to do creating Newspeak in Orwell's 1984.


>...And I suspect that as the global landscape becomes ever-more
interconnected and blandized, there will be an increasing pressure to
reclaim or invent linguistic differences... Damien Broderick

"Blandized" seems like an unnecessarily negative term. Currently English is
the official language in many African nations, so the children learn both
English and their indigenous languages.

But ja, we can have it all: geekspeak, street rap, chat room, biz universal,
all condensed into some kind of intelligible machine translatable form, with
the translations understandable by speakers of the various languages and
dialects.  Many of the languages such as teenspeak would have only a few
hundred words, many of which would look like alphabet soup, such as
ROTFLMAO.  But it is the job of the machine to memorize them all, not the
humans.  We compose only the thoughts, then let the machines deal with the
mechanics of transmitting the messages.

I read 1984 in high school (late 70s) and thought the notion of newspeak a
great idea at the time.

I am getting D?j? vu.  Didn't we cover similar ground here a few years ago? 

spike









From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 21 20:13:29 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:13:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
Message-ID: <003601cba14b$88f77910$9ae66b30$@att.net>



>...The problem I see once again with the current European cold snap is that
while the global climate may be warming, humans perceive weather...spike


On this, George Monbiot and I agree:

"Sod all that, my correspondents insist: just look out of the window. No
explanation of the numbers, no description of the North Atlantic oscillation
or the Arctic dipole, no reminder of current temperatures in other parts of
the world, can compete with the observation that there's a foot of snow
outside. We are simple, earthy creatures, governed by our senses. What we
see and taste and feel overrides analysis. The cold has reason in a deathly
grip."  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/20/uk-snow-global-warming

The Gaians will never be able to sell this notion until they figure out how
to get the notion to *selllll.*  In the long run, everything really is about
sales and profits.  Harness that, you win.  Otherwise not.

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 21 21:09:58 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:09:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] simulation as an improvement over reality
Message-ID: <000901cba153$6cbb68d0$46323a70$@att.net>

My son was given a wii bowling game.  Some of you may be familiar with it: a
simulated bowling game in which the player holds a device instrumented with
accelerometers that simulates a bowling ball, with a simulated alley and
pins.  Those of us who play bowling or have done so recognize that it is a
poor substitute for the real thing, but one aspect of the simulated wii game
caught my attention.  It can be set up to simulate interesting variations on
a well-worn theme.

Bowling has ten pins, but what if our sim could offer us any arbitrary
number?  What if we could have instead of four pins along the back row,
about twenty?  Then the total number of pins would be 210.  To set up an
actual alley and maintain the same spacing as 10 pin, the alley construction
would present some practical real-world show stoppers.  The alley would need
to be five times the width, and logically five times the length, so 25 times
the floor area in high-cost super flat and level hard wood.  Never mind
attempting to set up a mechanized pin setter.

But a good computer sim can do a convincing job of calculating what would
happen if you did manage to set up such a cool arrangement.  It would open
wide the possibilities, such as struggling to be the first person in history
to achieve a strike in 28 pin, where the back row has seven instead of the
usual four pins.  Or set the world record for the largest single-roll score
in 55 pin, where a strike is universally considered impossible.  I can
imagine the sim being sophisticated enough that it takes a minute or two to
calculate all the dynamics of scattering bowling pins, even with today's
highly capable processors.

This sets the stage for international wii bowling-variant tournaments, where
no one needs to leave their own home.  Imagine the fuel savings.  That game
would be a kick in the ass!

It is getting easier now for me to imagine future entertainment, much less
passive than sitting like a boiled rutabaga in front of a big silver screen,
far more interactive, more people involved, less money changing hands, waaay
more variation in the old familiar games.

spike








From anders at aleph.se  Tue Dec 21 21:31:11 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:31:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>

On 2010-12-21 17:36, spike wrote:
> But Anders, I am so puzzled.  We were assured the science was *settled* on
> all this.  When I looked at it, the science sure as hell didn't look settled
> to me.  Doesn't still now.

Yup. But I think professor Steve Rayner (one of our stars over in 
Oxford, big name in sociology, climate and geoengineering) nailed it 
when he was asked about climate during a meeting with some business 
people. He said roughly: "The climate models are crappy. [succinct rant 
about their main failures] However, as decision-making aids they have 
been *better* than the kind of input we accept as relevant input for 
business decisions since the middle 90's."

The fact that the politicized climate industry is going to go on raving 
about how settled things are is irrelevant. I find it more interesting 
to talk to the real climate scientists and discuss real science with 
them. They do have some pretty nifty forecasting methods, a lot of 
knowledge of different kinds of uncertainty and their individual 
problems, even some very cool large-scale simulation tools. Very useful 
for completely different domains.


> Any solution to global warming must be market driven as opposed to
> politically driven.  It might not work, but it must sell.  Local freak warm
> snaps will help them sell.  Cold spells will hurt sales.  The critical point
> is overall sales.

An interesting issue is that the markets do not seem to be pricing like 
they expect climate to be a big problem. Either they are very 
shortsighted, investors are mis-investing, or they do not "believe" (as 
information markets) in major climate change. Either way, there is 
likely arbitrage to be made.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Dec 21 21:37:21 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:37:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>

On 2010-12-21 17:49, spike wrote:
> ... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
>
> ...
>
>> ...Och of course vi speak flytande Swenglish here i Sweden these dagar.
>
> I can translate that:  "Eh, of course I speak a mixture of English and
> Swedish, but here in Sweden I carry this really big knife."

Ah, I can hear that you know Swedish well!


> So we need to think of adapting language in such a way that automated
> translation effectively translates it.  A good technical paper is already
> written that way: engineering terms are often universal, mathematical
> equations are exactly universal.  So we start by eliminating figures of
> speech specific to our own cultures, and migrate towards words that have
> more universal and very specific meanings.

Many terms also have fixed meanings: "nonlinear" - scary. "it is 
generally believed that" - I think. "It is obvious that" - I'm too lazy 
to explain.

I like the idea of developing useful subsets of languages. The problem 
is figuring out when you are encountering them. Philosophese often 
sounds like slightly stilted English, but some words are entire rabbit 
holes of strangeness (case in point: intentionality). Maybe we should 
have markers indicating when we get into a special domain.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 21 22:17:06 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 16:17:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <4D112762.60108@satx.rr.com>

On 12/21/2010 3:37 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> Philosophese often
> sounds like slightly stilted English

Does it also sound like slightly stilted German or French? I developed 
the strong impression that some of the more bizarre contortions of 
English-language deconstruction arose from treasonous translations from 
French especially, not to mention French-itself-translated-from-German. 
I recall one hilarious episode of a seminar of pomo psychiatrists 
tormenting a page of Lacan, trying to work out exactly what he was so 
brilliantly saying about the multiple ghosts of light (or some such); 
finally I mentioned that he might be talking about spectra, not 
specters. (But since he was Lacan he probably meant both, and more, and 
less...)

Damien Broderick


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Dec 21 22:24:29 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 23:24:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Biological immortality and the paleo diet
In-Reply-To: <998790.52453.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1292760002.21837.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<998790.52453.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimShTgtM729V=TWq6HRP57vJ-FNMRBqrK5fLLeP@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 December 2010 14:31, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've just had an experience that confirms this. Been eating broadly palaeo
> for a few weeks, and feeling a lot better for it, no hunger pangs, eating
> meals farther apart, but recently I was in a situation where that was just
> not really possible without a lot of inconvenience, and I've abruptly
> reversed the gradual weight loss (gained a kilo in a week), been more hungry
> and irritable and felt the need to eat more frequently than I've got used
> to.  And felt the irresistible call of croissants for breakfast this
> morning!  Now I have to go through the process of weaning myself off wheat
> all over again..


Yes. Even though while I somewhat like crossants their appeal for me is far
from irresistitble this reflects more or less my experience.

I also think that a big  psychological help for people having a harsher
battle to fight against withdrawal is that when, in face to unlimited
quantities of excellent meat, fish, salad of which you do not want any more
for the time being, you crave a piece of bread, you can be certain that this
is not any kind of healthy "hunger", it is just addiction kicking in.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Dec 21 22:26:28 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:26:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se> <004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>

Quoting Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:

> I like the idea of developing useful subsets of languages. The problem
> is figuring out when you are encountering them. Philosophese often
> sounds like slightly stilted English, but some words are entire rabbit
> holes of strangeness (case in point: intentionality). Maybe we should
> have markers indicating when we get into a special domain.

Let's talk about intentionality. [Roy Ascott, my PhD advisor (who you  
will meet at the upcoming neuro/media-arts conference at the  
University of Plymouth), once said to me to be careful about  
intentionality.  I still don't really know what he meant. Husserl,  
Bretano, Dennett, etc. ... ?]

I wasn't sure if Roy was criticizing my view about life extension  
being a result of human survival instinct, as if I was making an  
"aboutness" about human nature and purpose, or if he was saying  
criticizing my transhumanist views in reference to the mind as a  
construct of the brain.

In your view, how would intentionality come into play in the  
philosophy of transhumanism and also in the domain of human  
enhancement / life prolongation?

Natasha










From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 21 23:32:48 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 19:32:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
	<20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <AANLkTindeKFsuuERmhOOjCLO45O-CEuVwoHqanGRKJSX@mail.gmail.com>

Natasha wrote:

>once said to me to be careful about intentionality<

I'm not sure if this is how your thesis advisor meant it, but the brilliant
(in my opinion) scientist and social activist Canadian David Suzuki was once
talking about scientific research grants, and how the phenomenon of focussed
intentionality based on predetermined objectives often required for
preliminary funding can blind us to the serendipitous, which was once, and
still should be, the heart and soul of scientific discovery.  Scientific
method aside, it is often the failure of a hypothesis in an experiment that
leads to the billion dollar insights.  No? I can't see anyone funding
Einstein's initial insight -- that if if he were on a tram that was in turn
riding a light beam away from the town clock, that at no point during his
journey would the second hand ever advance a single iota. Intentionality
requires an outcome, and the best ideas don't presuppose an outcome, but
just deal in circumstance and let the outcome take care itself.

Just a thought. I'm also a little drunk. I rarely drink but just came back
from a Christmas party. So I may wake up tomorrow and regret this post. :)

Darren

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 6:26 PM, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

> Quoting Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:
>
>  I like the idea of developing useful subsets of languages. The problem
>> is figuring out when you are encountering them. Philosophese often
>> sounds like slightly stilted English, but some words are entire rabbit
>> holes of strangeness (case in point: intentionality). Maybe we should
>> have markers indicating when we get into a special domain.
>>
>
> Let's talk about intentionality. [Roy Ascott, my PhD advisor (who you will
> meet at the upcoming neuro/media-arts conference at the University of
> Plymouth), once said to me to be careful about intentionality.  I still
> don't really know what he meant. Husserl, Bretano, Dennett, etc. ... ?]
>
> I wasn't sure if Roy was criticizing my view about life extension being a
> result of human survival instinct, as if I was making an "aboutness" about
> human nature and purpose, or if he was saying criticizing my transhumanist
> views in reference to the mind as a construct of the brain.
>
> In your view, how would intentionality come into play in the philosophy of
> transhumanism and also in the domain of human enhancement / life
> prolongation?
>
> Natasha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 21 23:33:56 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:33:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <4D113964.3000609@satx.rr.com>

On 12/21/2010 3:31 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> An interesting issue is that the markets do not seem to be pricing like
> they expect climate to be a big problem. Either they are very
> shortsighted, investors are mis-investing, or they do not "believe" (as
> information markets) in major climate change. Either way, there is
> likely arbitrage to be made.

Barbara comments:

<Insurance companies seem to be anticipating rises in sea level, and 
quite a bit of research is being done on crops that are less sensitive 
to temperature extremes (especially high temps) than existing crops. >

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Dec 21 23:52:53 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:52:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] intentionality
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindeKFsuuERmhOOjCLO45O-CEuVwoHqanGRKJSX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>	<20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTindeKFsuuERmhOOjCLO45O-CEuVwoHqanGRKJSX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D113DD5.10502@satx.rr.com>

On 12/21/2010 5:32 PM, Darren Greer wrote:

>>once said to me to be careful about intentionality<
>
> I'm not sure if this is how your thesis advisor meant it, but the
> brilliant (in my opinion) scientist and social activist Canadian David
> Suzuki was once talking about scientific research grants, and how the
> phenomenon of focussed intentionality based on predetermined objectives
> often required for preliminary funding can blind us to the
> serendipitous, which was once, and still should be, the heart and soul
> of scientific discovery.

Not really; not in a philosophical sense. Check out

<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intentionality/>

<For reasons soon to be explained, in its philosophical usage, the 
meaning of the word ?intentionality? should not be confused with the 
ordinary meaning of the word ?intention.? As the Latin etymology of 
?intentionality? indicates, the relevant idea of directedness or tension 
(an English word which derives from the Latin verb tendere) arises from 
pointing towards or attending to some target. In medieval logic and 
philosophy, the Latin word intentio was used for what contemporary 
philosophers and logicians nowadays call a ?concept? or an ?intension?: 
something that can be both true of non-mental things and 
properties?things and properties lying outside the mind?and present to 
the mind. On the assumption that a concept is itself something mental, 
an intentio may also be true of mental things. For example, the concept 
of a dog, which is a first-level intentio, applies to individual dogs or 
to the property of being a dog. It also falls under various higher-level 
concepts that apply to it, such as being a concept, being mental, etc. 
If so, then while the first-level concept is true of non-mental things, 
the higher-level concepts may be true of something mental. Notice that 
on this way of thinking, concepts that are true of mental things are 
presumably logically more complex than concepts that are true of 
non-mental things.>  etc etc


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Dec 21 23:49:26 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:49:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <002901cba169$b3989370$1ac9ba50$@att.net>

On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] cure for global warming is working

On 2010-12-21 17:36, spike wrote:
>> But Anders, I am so puzzled.  We were assured the science was 
>> *settled* on all this.  When I looked at it, the science sure as hell 
>> didn't look settled to me.  Doesn't still now.

>Yup... professor Steve Rayner: "The climate models are crappy. [succinct
rant about their main failures] However, as decision-making aids they have
been *better* than the kind of input we accept as relevant input for
business decisions since the middle 90's."

Ja.  The critical aspect of comparing climate models with business models is
that the business investors rely on the uncertain models to risk *their own*
money as opposed to someone else's.

>...The fact that the politicized climate industry is going to go on raving
about how settled things are is irrelevant...

Ja.  Anders I am thankful for you pal.  Your even-handed approach to this is
as refreshing as a cool breeze on a scorching summer day. {8-]

>... I find it more interesting to talk to the real climate scientists and
discuss real science with them...

Me too.  This whole field seems hopelessly mired in a morass of controversy
from which extrication appears impossible.

>...They do have some pretty nifty forecasting methods, a lot of knowledge
of different kinds of uncertainty and their individual problems, even some
very cool large-scale simulation tools. Very useful for completely different
domains...

If it sells, may they prosper and grow.

>...An interesting issue is that the markets do not seem to be pricing like
they expect climate to be a big problem...

Ja.  Governments seem slow to grasp this.

>... Either they are very shortsighted, investors are mis-investing, or they
do not "believe" (as information markets) in major climate change. Either
way, there is likely arbitrage to be made.  --Anders Sandberg

As I see it, the question is much bigger than the mere possibility of
disrupting centuries old agriculture techniques, mass starvation, collapse
of civilization and the risk of rendering the planet uninhabitable by all
presently-known organisms.  We face a far more critical question: how much
authority do we entrust to our national governments to act on this.  Our
consistent answer: not much, and less as in the future.

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Wed Dec 22 00:06:27 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 16:06:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <4D113964.3000609@satx.rr.com>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
	<4D113964.3000609@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <003c01cba16c$14980c80$3dc82580$@att.net>

... On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
Subject: Re: [ExI] cure for global warming is working

On 12/21/2010 3:31 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> An interesting issue is that the markets do not seem to be pricing 
> like they expect climate to be a big problem...

Barbara comments:

>...Insurance companies seem to be anticipating rises in sea level...

This is interesting.  Insurance companies are entering a bet.  The customer
is betting a bad outcome will occur, the company is betting it will not.
Insurance companies can make a *ton* of money off of the perception of risk
of rising sea levels, while actually betting against it.  The time scale for
rising sea level is not the same as the flash-in-the-pan time scale of any
insurance company.  They profit from playing up the risk posed by sea level
change, or perhaps more accurately, they profit from merely trading on
perceptions of risk already in place.  

Insurance companies recognize that sex sells, but death sells even better.

>... quite a bit of research is being done on crops that are less sensitive
to temperature extremes (especially high temps) than existing crops...
Damien Broderick

Ja, but I would interpret this alternatively than researchers anticipating
higher peak temperatures from global warming.  Rather we have vast expanses
of existing dry hot land (such as Mexico and your Texas) into which
agriculture can profitably expand, should we figure out how to develop crops
capable of withstanding higher temperatures and longer dry spells.  A more
heat-tolerant strain of wheat for instance would be worth a cubic buttload
of money immediately, regardless of future climate.

spike








From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 00:24:44 2010
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 20:24:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] intentionality
In-Reply-To: <4D113DD5.10502@satx.rr.com>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
	<20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTindeKFsuuERmhOOjCLO45O-CEuVwoHqanGRKJSX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D113DD5.10502@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ctW8-1oe=wfiAU_W7=Xq439nUvYmyX=TgA=58@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Damien. Too wasted to check it out tonight, But will tomorrow. Why is
it that the Christians, when they can't get at me any other time of year,
always get me with *C**2**H**5**OH? :)*
*
*
*D.
*
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 12/21/2010 5:32 PM, Darren Greer wrote:
>
>  once said to me to be careful about intentionality<
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is how your thesis advisor meant it, but the
>> brilliant (in my opinion) scientist and social activist Canadian David
>> Suzuki was once talking about scientific research grants, and how the
>> phenomenon of focussed intentionality based on predetermined objectives
>> often required for preliminary funding can blind us to the
>> serendipitous, which was once, and still should be, the heart and soul
>> of scientific discovery.
>>
>
> Not really; not in a philosophical sense. Check out
>
> <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intentionality/>
>
> <For reasons soon to be explained, in its philosophical usage, the meaning
> of the word ?intentionality? should not be confused with the ordinary
> meaning of the word ?intention.? As the Latin etymology of ?intentionality?
> indicates, the relevant idea of directedness or tension (an English word
> which derives from the Latin verb tendere) arises from pointing towards or
> attending to some target. In medieval logic and philosophy, the Latin word
> intentio was used for what contemporary philosophers and logicians nowadays
> call a ?concept? or an ?intension?: something that can be both true of
> non-mental things and properties?things and properties lying outside the
> mind?and present to the mind. On the assumption that a concept is itself
> something mental, an intentio may also be true of mental things. For
> example, the concept of a dog, which is a first-level intentio, applies to
> individual dogs or to the property of being a dog. It also falls under
> various higher-level concepts that apply to it, such as being a concept,
> being mental, etc. If so, then while the first-level concept is true of
> non-mental things, the higher-level concepts may be true of something
> mental. Notice that on this way of thinking, concepts that are true of
> mental things are presumably logically more complex than concepts that are
> true of non-mental things.>  etc etc
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
*"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
*
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 00:27:24 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 00:27:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <002901cba169$b3989370$1ac9ba50$@att.net>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
	<002901cba169$b3989370$1ac9ba50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimaPm02+1xCLatUpCyVY1-3C7v-GaW3GOaB9QpG@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:49 PM, spike  wrote:
> As I see it, the question is much bigger than the mere possibility of
> disrupting centuries old agriculture techniques, mass starvation, collapse
> of civilization and the risk of rendering the planet uninhabitable by all
> presently-known organisms. ?We face a far more critical question: how much
> authority do we entrust to our national governments to act on this. ?Our
> consistent answer: not much, and less as in the future.
>
>


The US government approval rating has now dropped to a record low of
17%. (Gallup).

It is pretty obvious that the government is working for Wall Street,
not for 'We, the people'.


BillK



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Dec 22 01:52:50 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 20:52:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindeKFsuuERmhOOjCLO45O-CEuVwoHqanGRKJSX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se> <004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
	<20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTindeKFsuuERmhOOjCLO45O-CEuVwoHqanGRKJSX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101221205250.jael9ygn440cw4g4@webmail.natasha.cc>

Thanks for your comemnts.  Hope your evening is a lot of fun.

I am still waiting for Ander's reply on this thread please!

Quoting Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>:

> Natasha wrote:
>
>> once said to me to be careful about intentionality<
>
> I'm not sure if this is how your thesis advisor meant it, but the brilliant
> (in my opinion) scientist and social activist Canadian David Suzuki was once
> talking about scientific research grants, and how the phenomenon of focussed
> intentionality based on predetermined objectives often required for
> preliminary funding can blind us to the serendipitous, which was once, and
> still should be, the heart and soul of scientific discovery.  Scientific
> method aside, it is often the failure of a hypothesis in an experiment that
> leads to the billion dollar insights.  No? I can't see anyone funding
> Einstein's initial insight -- that if if he were on a tram that was in turn
> riding a light beam away from the town clock, that at no point during his
> journey would the second hand ever advance a single iota. Intentionality
> requires an outcome, and the best ideas don't presuppose an outcome, but
> just deal in circumstance and let the outcome take care itself.
>
> Just a thought. I'm also a little drunk. I rarely drink but just came back
> from a Christmas party. So I may wake up tomorrow and regret this post. :)
>
> Darren
>
> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 6:26 PM, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:
>>
>>  I like the idea of developing useful subsets of languages. The problem
>>> is figuring out when you are encountering them. Philosophese often
>>> sounds like slightly stilted English, but some words are entire rabbit
>>> holes of strangeness (case in point: intentionality). Maybe we should
>>> have markers indicating when we get into a special domain.
>>>
>>
>> Let's talk about intentionality. [Roy Ascott, my PhD advisor (who you will
>> meet at the upcoming neuro/media-arts conference at the University of
>> Plymouth), once said to me to be careful about intentionality.  I still
>> don't really know what he meant. Husserl, Bretano, Dennett, etc. ... ?]
>>
>> I wasn't sure if Roy was criticizing my view about life extension being a
>> result of human survival instinct, as if I was making an "aboutness" about
>> human nature and purpose, or if he was saying criticizing my transhumanist
>> views in reference to the mind as a construct of the brain.
>>
>> In your view, how would intentionality come into play in the philosophy of
>> transhumanism and also in the domain of human enhancement / life
>> prolongation?
>>
>> Natasha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
> *
>






From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 03:32:59 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 20:32:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming
Message-ID: <AANLkTimJLSK_6aNYt2ZEF55pAtHvbw3n3BsaPQUTxhcm@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 5:20 PM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

snip

> Any solution to global warming must be market driven as opposed to
> politically driven.

snip

The best way I see is to come up with an energy source considerably
less expensive than fossil fuels.  As some of you know, I have been
working in this direction for a number of years.  Solar is one choice,
but because solar (and wind) are dilute and intermittent it takes
inspired engineering and close attention to cost.

The StratoSolar project has become much more complicated, requiring
rotating, buoyant aerodynamic shrouds around the light pipe plus the
ability to run on hydrocarbon fuels for as much as a week out of the
year.

Keith


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Dec 22 12:47:09 2010
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 13:47:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <003601cba14b$88f77910$9ae66b30$@att.net>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
	<003601cba14b$88f77910$9ae66b30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20101222124709.GQ16518@leitl.org>

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:13:29PM -0800, spike wrote:

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/20/uk-snow-global-warming
> 
> The Gaians will never be able to sell this notion until they figure out how
> to get the notion to *selllll.*  In the long run, everything really is about
> sales and profits.  Harness that, you win.  Otherwise not.

What's nice about reality that it doesn't give a flying fuck about 
nice suits, speeches, and sales. It judges everybody exactly the same way.

The fossil record is full of those who couldn't quite figure out
that reality thing.


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Dec 22 13:01:01 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:01:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
	<004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se>
	<20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <4D11F68D.9070900@aleph.se>

On 2010-12-21 23:26, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> Quoting Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:
>
>> I like the idea of developing useful subsets of languages. The problem
>> is figuring out when you are encountering them. Philosophese often
>> sounds like slightly stilted English, but some words are entire rabbit
>> holes of strangeness (case in point: intentionality). Maybe we should
>> have markers indicating when we get into a special domain.
>
> Let's talk about intentionality.

But will we make any heads or tails of it? Damien posted a link to the 
Stanford Encyclopedia entry, which is likely a good overview or at least 
a start... i.e. deeply confusing. Searle and the others are really 
trying to get at something important in our minds, something which might 
not exist or be different from what we normally use the term for. Not 
too different from how physicists are discovering just how weird matter 
really is when investigated closely.

On the other hand, for many practical purposes we do not need the full 
conceptual hadron collider. When I say I intend to do something (like 
baking cookies later this morning) I mean something relatively 
straightforward in the usual social space (although my mother, knowing 
how I delay projects like this, would say that my intention is not so 
much to bake but to decide to bake...) However, the SEoP meaning is more 
about how my mind is representing the situation rather than whether I 
will actually bake or be held morally responsible for baking.


(I love the SEoP, just check out the enormous and very exact essay about 
vagueness, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/vagueness/ )


> [Roy Ascott, my PhD advisor (who you
> will meet at the upcoming neuro/media-arts conference at the University
> of Plymouth), once said to me to be careful about intentionality. I
> still don't really know what he meant. Husserl, Bretano, Dennett, etc.
> ... ?]
>
> I wasn't sure if Roy was criticizing my view about life extension being
> a result of human survival instinct, as if I was making an "aboutness"
> about human nature and purpose, or if he was saying criticizing my
> transhumanist views in reference to the mind as a construct of the brain.
 >
> In your view, how would intentionality come into play in the philosophy
> of transhumanism and also in the domain of human enhancement / life
> prolongation?

"I intend to enhance myself" - this usually means that I have formed an 
image of some future state and/or process that will enhance me, and I 
think this is a good course of action. There are of course subtle 
problems here:

"I": My mind is actually a collective of subsystems, not all on them on 
speaking terms. Some are deeply influenced by memes or projections from 
other people or my culture in general. My mind might have external parts 
(as per Sasha Chislenko and David Chalmers). My personal identity is 
fluid and affected both by bodily aspects (ageing, blood sugar levels, 
being a particular body in a particular place) as well as how I 
construct it (my life narrative, my philosophical views of personal 
identity, etc). The "I" that is intending things might not be very unitary.

"intend": See above discussion - Where are my mental states? How are 
they grounded in this messy "I"? How did they come about? My vision of 
becoming better, is it based on merely projecting my current state along 
directions I find good, or is it something internally consistent?

"enhance": the usual issues of why we think something is better than 
something else, but also the issue of whether this enhancement itself 
will affect my intentionality. If I add a tweak to my motivation system, 
it will both change how I run my life (and maybe who i am, as below) but 
also how my motivational states are represented - the tweak might 
involve extending my mind with external tools, which hence become part 
of my intentional processes or properties.

"myself": not just the usual discussions about our right to enhance and 
whether a sufficiently enhanced self is really me, but there are also 
issues about our relationship to our future selves and the fact that we 
have messy, disjointed selves.

Good reason to be careful about intentionality. Especially since it is 
not just a messy, technical concept that is somewhat different in 
philosophy from everyday usage, but that philosophers also have 
fundamental disagreements on what it is, how to use it and what that 
implies.

In the case of life extension one could argue that life extension aims 
at extending our ability to continue our intentions, but that is the 
everyday meaning of the word. Going into the deep stuff will likely be 
enough to write a dense book... which few might be able to follow.

And of course, if intentionality is too easy, there is also intensionality.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Dec 22 15:00:11 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 09:00:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <4D11F68D.9070900@aleph.se>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se><004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>	<4D111E11.6000300@aleph.se><20101221172628.u1bs39by4g8ogog0@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4D11F68D.9070900@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <7084F5DB06E84C38BE05F36AADE68686@DFC68LF1>

Anders wrote:

On 2010-12-21 23:26, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> Quoting Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:
>
>> I like the idea of developing useful subsets of languages. The 
>> problem is figuring out when you are encountering them. Philosophese 
>> often sounds like slightly stilted English, but some words are entire 
>> rabbit holes of strangeness (case in point: intentionality). Maybe we 
>> should have markers indicating when we get into a special domain.
>
> Let's talk about intentionality.

"But will we make any heads or tails of it? Damien posted a link to the
Stanford Encyclopedia entry, which is likely a good overview or at least a
start... i.e. deeply confusing." 

Yes, I had read that material online at the original site and it does not
address the issue.  I think that Darren's response to me was partially
correct and Damien's response to him took it far into the matter, but not
enough to find an answer to the question.

"Searle and the others are really trying to get at something important in
our minds, something which might not exist or be different from what we
normally use the term for. Not too different from how physicists are
discovering just how weird matter really is when investigated closely."

>From Plato to radical constructivism.  

"On the other hand, for many practical purposes we do not need the full
conceptual hadron collider. When I say I intend to do something (like baking
cookies later this morning) I mean something relatively straightforward in
the usual social space (although my mother, knowing how I delay projects
like this, would say that my intention is not so much to bake but to decide
to bake...) However, the SEoP meaning is more about how my mind is
representing the situation rather than whether I will actually bake or be
held morally responsible for baking."

Or whether the baking will happen at all. I think this is what Roy Ascott
was getting at.  It is fun to conceptualize immortality, but in actuality it
may exist in the mind's construction and not hold or have an "object" space.
And, of course, if the mind is a looked at through the lens of
constructivism, there is no materiality of immortality.


(I love the SEoP, just check out the enormous and very exact essay about
vagueness, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/vagueness/ )

Yup,

Best,
Natasha


> [Roy Ascott, my PhD advisor (who you
> will meet at the upcoming neuro/media-arts conference at the University
> of Plymouth), once said to me to be careful about intentionality. I
> still don't really know what he meant. Husserl, Bretano, Dennett, etc.
> ... ?]
>
> I wasn't sure if Roy was criticizing my view about life extension being
> a result of human survival instinct, as if I was making an "aboutness"
> about human nature and purpose, or if he was saying criticizing my
> transhumanist views in reference to the mind as a construct of the brain.
 >
> In your view, how would intentionality come into play in the philosophy
> of transhumanism and also in the domain of human enhancement / life
> prolongation?

"I intend to enhance myself" - this usually means that I have formed an 
image of some future state and/or process that will enhance me, and I 
think this is a good course of action. There are of course subtle 
problems here:

"I": My mind is actually a collective of subsystems, not all on them on 
speaking terms. Some are deeply influenced by memes or projections from 
other people or my culture in general. My mind might have external parts 
(as per Sasha Chislenko and David Chalmers). My personal identity is 
fluid and affected both by bodily aspects (ageing, blood sugar levels, 
being a particular body in a particular place) as well as how I 
construct it (my life narrative, my philosophical views of personal 
identity, etc). The "I" that is intending things might not be very unitary.

"intend": See above discussion - Where are my mental states? How are 
they grounded in this messy "I"? How did they come about? My vision of 
becoming better, is it based on merely projecting my current state along 
directions I find good, or is it something internally consistent?

"enhance": the usual issues of why we think something is better than 
something else, but also the issue of whether this enhancement itself 
will affect my intentionality. If I add a tweak to my motivation system, 
it will both change how I run my life (and maybe who i am, as below) but 
also how my motivational states are represented - the tweak might 
involve extending my mind with external tools, which hence become part 
of my intentional processes or properties.

"myself": not just the usual discussions about our right to enhance and 
whether a sufficiently enhanced self is really me, but there are also 
issues about our relationship to our future selves and the fact that we 
have messy, disjointed selves.

Good reason to be careful about intentionality. Especially since it is 
not just a messy, technical concept that is somewhat different in 
philosophy from everyday usage, but that philosophers also have 
fundamental disagreements on what it is, how to use it and what that 
implies.

In the case of life extension one could argue that life extension aims 
at extending our ability to continue our intentions, but that is the 
everyday meaning of the word. Going into the deep stuff will likely be 
enough to write a dense book... which few might be able to follow.

And of course, if intentionality is too easy, there is also intensionality.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 17:52:01 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 12:52:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <003c01cba16c$14980c80$3dc82580$@att.net>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se> <4D113964.3000609@satx.rr.com>
	<003c01cba16c$14980c80$3dc82580$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Y-J+Qa4Aks+esDPvpZtAwU7EXhziKqb38Dvh8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 7:06 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> Ja, but I would interpret this alternatively than researchers anticipating
> higher peak temperatures from global warming. ?Rather we have vast expanses
> of existing dry hot land (such as Mexico and your Texas) into which
> agriculture can profitably expand, should we figure out how to develop crops
> capable of withstanding higher temperatures and longer dry spells. ?A more
> heat-tolerant strain of wheat for instance would be worth a cubic buttload
> of money immediately, regardless of future climate.

### Thanks to CO2 fertilization existing plant varieties are now able
to function better under dry and hot conditions which explains the
shrinking of deserts observed especially in the last 30 years. Also,
increased temperatures, if they were to actually occur, would not
result in diminished humidity - on the contrary, there would be more
precipitation, faster turnover of water in the atmosphere.

Rafal



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 17:48:05 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 12:48:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimwp9=Oc4B39US5syNBRMuhj=TW9ZOupmVQioC6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:36 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> The problem I see once again with the current European cold snap is that
> while the global climate may be warming, humans perceive weather.

### No worry spike, global climate is *not* warming - once you look at
the actual data, there is no evidence of a global warming trend. There
is a lot of publication bias and outright fraud (especially the GISS
temperature reconstructions), some UHI effects but overall not much
going on (at least in the physical reality). And most climate
scientists will hem and haw when asked privately rather than honestly
look you in the eye and say they know there is detectable
anthropogenic carbon dioxide impact on current climate. In grant
writing and publications they will of course imply the opposite, at
least if they know which side their bread is buttered on.

Rafal


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Dec 22 18:23:36 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 12:23:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Y-J+Qa4Aks+esDPvpZtAwU7EXhziKqb38Dvh8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
	<4D113964.3000609@satx.rr.com>	<003c01cba16c$14980c80$3dc82580$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=Y-J+Qa4Aks+esDPvpZtAwU7EXhziKqb38Dvh8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D124228.4020408@satx.rr.com>

On 12/22/2010 11:48 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

 > And most climate
 > scientists will hem and haw when asked privately rather than honestly
 > look you in the eye and say they know there is detectable
 > anthropogenic carbon dioxide impact on current climate.

On 12/22/2010 11:52 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

> ### Thanks to CO2 fertilization existing plant varieties are now able
> to function better under dry and hot conditions which explains the
> shrinking of deserts observed especially in the last 30 years.

I'm confused, Rafal. You mean the fertilization by the extra CO2 that 
doesn't exist? Or it does exist but can't possibly affect the climate?

Damien Broderick


From js_exi at gnolls.org  Wed Dec 22 19:47:35 2010
From: js_exi at gnolls.org (J. Stanton)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 11:47:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Mechanisms of carbohydrate/sugar addiction (was Re:
 Paleo/primal health)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1292932801.16166.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1292932801.16166.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4D1255D7.50402@gnolls.org>


I've become convinced by my own experience, by seeing articles like 
Barbara's (below) and posts like Stefano's, Max's, and Ben's, and by the 
alarming statistic that to a first approximation, 100% of diets fail --

-- that there are addictive components to carbohydrate consumption, most 
particularly bread.

Inspired by all of your posts, I did some research, found some 
surprising facts, put them together, and wrote this article:

"Mechanisms of Sugar Addiction: Or, Why You're Addicted To Bread"
http://www.gnolls.org/905/mechanisms-of-sugar-addiction-or-why-youre-addicted-to-bread/

I'm very interested to hear what you think.

JS
http://www.gnolls.org

> From: Damien Broderick<thespike at satx.rr.com>
>
> My wife Barbara Lamar is posting a series about her experiments with
> paleo-like diet:
>
> <http://huerto-de-altamira.blogspot.com/2010/12/low-cost-healthy-diet.html>



From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 20:56:39 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 15:56:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Mechanisms of carbohydrate/sugar addiction (was Re:
 Paleo/primal health)
In-Reply-To: <4D1255D7.50402@gnolls.org>
References: <mailman.1.1292932801.16166.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4D1255D7.50402@gnolls.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWaUSgQ+=YEZ2xX7ycSKxs3m+5-=8GbC9tHOr_@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 2:47 PM, J. Stanton <js_exi at gnolls.org> wrote:

>
> Inspired by all of your posts, I did some research, found some surprising
> facts, put them together, and wrote this article:
>
> "Mechanisms of Sugar Addiction: Or, Why You're Addicted To Bread"
>
> http://www.gnolls.org/905/mechanisms-of-sugar-addiction-or-why-youre-addicted-to-bread/
>
> I'm very interested to hear what you think.
>

Overall, I like it it. It presents a strong case pretty succinctly. A couple
minor quibbles:

-you compare whole wheat bagels to Skittles. I don't see whole wheat bagels
in the GI table, and your photo shows a plain bagel. Plain bagel means "not
whole wheat".

-"In other words, we are told to graze?like cattle." Grazing refers to
eating grass, not chowing down on grains. I think you mean something like:
"In other words, we are told to load up on grains?like cattle being fattened
for slaughter."

-Dave
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 23:25:59 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 18:25:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <4D124228.4020408@satx.rr.com>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>
	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>
	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se> <4D113964.3000609@satx.rr.com>
	<003c01cba16c$14980c80$3dc82580$@att.net>
	<AANLkTi=Y-J+Qa4Aks+esDPvpZtAwU7EXhziKqb38Dvh8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D124228.4020408@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=mBGuACwyE=24Bc4R84V1X928PvmE4PisahXCs@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 11:48 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> And most climate
>> scientists will hem and haw when asked privately rather than honestly
>> look you in the eye and say they know there is detectable
>> anthropogenic carbon dioxide impact on current climate.
>
> On 12/22/2010 11:52 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> ### Thanks to CO2 fertilization existing plant varieties are now able
>> to function better under dry and hot conditions which explains the
>> shrinking of deserts observed especially in the last 30 years.
>
> I'm confused, Rafal. You mean the fertilization by the extra CO2 that
> doesn't exist? Or it does exist but can't possibly affect the climate?

### Is there anything in what I wrote that would justify your
questions? Did you get the impression that I think CO2 concentration
is stable or that it is not a greenhouse gas?

Rafal


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Dec 23 00:04:13 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 18:04:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] cure for global warming is working
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=mBGuACwyE=24Bc4R84V1X928PvmE4PisahXCs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000301cba095$f409df10$dc1d9d30$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=7AT3MpfOu7mpFOLhSUEPwa_+Apw2EMzN0pEkK@mail.gmail.com>	<4D109032.2020400@aleph.se>	<004601cba12d$3ae88bb0$b0b9a310$@att.net>	<4D111C9F.8010805@aleph.se>
	<4D113964.3000609@satx.rr.com>	<003c01cba16c$14980c80$3dc82580$@att.net>	<AANLkTi=Y-J+Qa4Aks+esDPvpZtAwU7EXhziKqb38Dvh8@mail.gmail.com>	<4D124228.4020408@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=mBGuACwyE=24Bc4R84V1X928PvmE4PisahXCs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D1291FD.3080706@satx.rr.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

>>> >>  And most climate
>>> >>  scientists will hem and haw when asked privately rather than honestly
>>> >>  look you in the eye and say they know there is detectable
>>> >>  anthropogenic carbon dioxide impact on current climate.

>>> >>  ### Thanks to CO2 fertilization existing plant varieties are now able
>>> >>  to function better under dry and hot conditions which explains the
>>> >>  shrinking of deserts observed especially in the last 30 years.

>> >  I'm confused, Rafal. You mean the fertilization by the extra CO2 that
>> >  doesn't exist? Or it does exist but can't possibly affect the climate?

> ### Is there anything in what I wrote that would justify your
> questions?

Obviously I thought so, or I wouldn't have asked.

> Did you get the impression that I think CO2 concentration
> is stable or that it is not a greenhouse gas?

Yes. If not, why do climate scientists avoid your eye and hem and haw 
when you ask if CO2 is increasing and acting as a greenhouse gas by 
impacting climate?

What am I missing here?

Damien Broderick



From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 22 23:48:50 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 18:48:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Linguistic shifts
In-Reply-To: <004d01cba12f$0b1a7810$214f6830$@att.net>
References: <619903.87600.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4D10902E.6040509@aleph.se>
	<004d01cba12f$