[ExI] simulation as an improvement over reality

The Avantguardian avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com
Sat Dec 25 00:17:28 UTC 2010

----- Original Message ----
> From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 3:23:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] simulation as an improvement over reality
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:33:38PM +0000, BillK wrote:
> > Think about it.
> > You have uploads living at a speed many many times faster than humans.
> > So much so that every lifetime (virtual 100 years) if the uploaded
> Presumably, the lifetimes for each species will follow a power law.

So you readily admit that after a few minute or hours of real time, the upload 
would not be recognizable as human -- let alone Eugen Leitl? Then why bother?

> > mind bothers to look out at the real world, the human standing there
> > hasn't moved. You can't communicate with a statue.
> > So you go your own way and leave the statues alone.
> No, you most assuredly don't leave them alone. You're building
> at maximum speed the physical layer allows you. This is very slow
> by your standards, but very fast by outside standards.
> You're sharing the same physical layer. If it doesn't sound ominous,
> it should.

Yes. That is ominous. But those native to the physical layer would have an 
easier time manipulating the physical layer. Uploads would need an interface to 
do so and interfaces can be manipulated.
> > The uploads are manipulating a virtual reality (of some form). The
> You're manipulating a virtual reality (of some form). It's the model
> your brain builds of the environment.
> > wait to manipulate the real world would be too long. So in their
> Yeah, and we never left Africa. I mean, we're still roaming the
> savannas. 
> > virtual world they can do whatever takes their fancy. Fight dragons,
> > explore designed worlds, talk to invented aliens, etc. After a
> Everyone seems to think everybody will be so very smart.
> Diversity works in all directions.

It's much worse than that. Imagine being locked in a (unix) box with John 
Malkovitch for a thousand subjective years. Could you guarantee that at the end 
of that time, you yourself would not be John Malkovitch? Then consider that this 
might occur in mere minutes of real time. Then ask yourself what would become of 
Malkovitch-you after a million years of subjective time?

The uploads would be subject to internal selective pressures, from other uploads 
or the virtual environment itself that would feedback on their configuration 
state at a much faster rate than would any changes in the physical layer. So 
after a while everybody would have adapted to John Malkovitch because he visits 
once a week, but nobody knows how to deal with thunder shower in the real world 
because one of them only occurs every few million years of subjective time. 

> > thousand lifetimes, who knows what they will be like or what they will
> > be interested in.
> > 
> > My speculation was that after a thousand lifetimes they might run out
> > of interesting things to do and just switch off. If they did, then
> Right, every single species on Earth eventually commits suicide.
> Of terminal boredom. Happens everywhere, happens all the time.
> > that would appear to happen very quickly to the statues outside.
> They're dead, Jim.

So are all the "people" who uploaded. If similarity to the "original" person is 
an issue. I do agree with you that not all the adaptation will be toward more 
sophistication and complexity. While some uploads might become M-Brains other 
uploads could revert to worms, busy beavers, or other stable algorithms.

Stuart LaForge 

"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower 


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