From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat May  1 00:13:45 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <201004302307.o3UN7sYr011534@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <40512.76014.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 4/30/10, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> So why not a hybrid solution -- use the techniques
> discussed
> earlier in the thread to get it into an empty region
> (northern
> Canada, Gobi Desert, etc.) and then the approach I
> suggested
> to pinpoint it?

By the time you've got it confined to said empty
region, you've probably got ways to track it.  If
nothing else, other people will track it anyway; if
you ask nice, they can provide some very precise
coordinates, possibly even video tracking it to
within a few kilometers of impact.

Which isn't to say you can do those other things
too.  Just that there doesn't seem to be a point,
if you have it confined to a large region anyway.


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat May  1 01:42:10 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 21:42:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <40512.76014.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201004302307.o3UN7sYr011534@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<40512.76014.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Adrian wrote:

>By the time you've got it confined to said empty region, you've 
>probably got ways to track it.  If nothing else, other people will 
>track it anyway; if you ask nice, they can provide some very precise 
>coordinates, possibly even video tracking it to within a few 
>kilometers of impact.
>
>Which isn't to say you can do those other things too.  Just that 
>there doesn't seem to be a point, if you have it confined to a large 
>region anyway.

Why manually search a few kilometers of ocean, tundra, or desert
if you don't have to? If you engineer sensable characteristics --
radio transmission, distinctive color+pattern, etc. -- precise location
can be automated.

BTW, what volume and mass are you envisioning per shipment?

Are tele-operated land or sea vehicles good enough they could
be used for retrieval? (For land, taking into account that anywhere
desolate enough to be a good landing zone probably has natural
characteristics (e.g., bitter cold or sand+heat) that would stress
vehicles.)


-- David.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat May  1 02:57:46 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:57:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 4/30/10, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Why manually search a few kilometers of ocean, tundra, or
> desert
> if you don't have to? If you engineer sensable
> characteristics --
> radio transmission, distinctive color+pattern, etc. --
> precise location
> can be automated.

Automation vs. crowdsourcing.  Either way, the goal is to
get a task done as cheaply as possible - and in some cases,
both methods can be used effectively.

> BTW, what volume and mass are you envisioning per
> shipment?

TBD depending on the characteristics of the asteroid, its
composition, and what exactly is being brought down.  I
suspect the first de-orbiters will be between 1 and 100
meters across.  Platinum (hopefully the majority of the
initial de-orbiters by mass) is about 21,450 kilograms
per cubic meter.

> Are tele-operated land or sea vehicles good enough they
> could
> be used for retrieval?

Yes.  However, retrieval isn't as big a problem as
securing the area against others who would like to
"retrieve" what you de-orbited (ruining the whole point
of the operation).  (You'll also need to secure against
spectators.)  Unless you can get at least Predator-grade
unmanned vehicles, you're going to need your own humans
present, for security at least.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat May  1 03:39:42 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 23:39:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

>
> Yes.  However, retrieval isn't as big a problem as
> securing the area against others who would like to
> "retrieve" what you de-orbited (ruining the whole point
> of the operation).  (You'll also need to secure against
> spectators.)  Unless you can get at least Predator-grade
> unmanned vehicles, you're going to need your own humans
> present, for security at least.
>
>
I thought our big problem was getting stuff out of earth's gravity well, not
flinging stuff down into it.

If you can gather enough mass together from outside earth, why not park and
use it for a space elevator?  Then you'd just ferry the useful bits down the
elevator to counter other useful (probably expensive) stuff going up to do
more elaborate processing.  After you get enough useful mass parked,
processed and upgraded for other cool uses wouldn't we be in a better
position to launch new efforts directly from space?

Hurling rocks at the ground (no matter how accurately) seems like a lot of
inefficiency.

Maybe I'm missing something; this is something like rocket science...
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat May  1 05:48:47 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 22:48:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
Message-ID: <913918.14631.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 4/30/10, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought our big problem was getting stuff out of earth's gravity
> well, not flinging stuff down into it.

> Maybe I'm missing something; this is something like rocket science...

What you're missing is the financial angle.  The plan is, "Get stuff
back to Earth to sell ASAP, even if it's inefficient from a long term
technical point of view, because the ability to finance and start this
operation is a lot more limited than the amount of material that can
eventually be collected."

In other words, the big problem is, "How do we get the money together
to make this happen?"  All of the technical problems are far easier
to deal with (and in many cases, entirely or almost entirely solved
already), and are thus by definition far smaller.

(Also, corollary: the reason that flinging stuff down into the
gravity well solves the financial angle, is because there is a far
greater need and demand for the material on the bottom of the
gravity well than at the top.  Eventually, there will be a greater
need at the top, but eventually, we can harvest more material for
that need.  This is only about how we start up space
industrialization, not about how things will always be.)


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat May  1 06:14:46 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 23:14:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <672555.73096.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 8:39:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today



>>
>I thought our big problem was getting stuff out of earth's gravity well, not flinging stuff down into it.
>
>If you can gather enough mass together from outside earth, why not park and use it for a space elevator?? Then you'd just ferry the useful bits down the elevator to counter other useful (probably expensive) stuff going up to do more elaborate processing.? After you get enough useful mass parked, processed and upgraded for other cool uses wouldn't we be in a better position to launch new efforts directly from space?
>
>Hurling rocks at the ground (no matter how accurately) seems like a lot of inefficiency.
>
>Maybe I'm missing something; this is something like rocket science...
>

Being able to hurl rocks from space at the ground accurately?is certain to get the undivided attention of the UN security council in a way normally reserved for nukes. Not that I am against it in principle, just that I am certain there would be greater challenges than just the technical aspects.

Stuart LaForge 


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert 


      




From estropico at gmail.com  Sat May  1 13:34:03 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 14:34:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Cryonics UK,
	One Year On - An update from David 	Styles
Message-ID: <s2n4eaaa0d91005010634veea4adb8n869ecbe4b4058eaf@mail.gmail.com>

Cryonics UK, One Year On - An update from David Styles

Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010
Time: 2:00pm - 4:00pm
Location: Room 414, 4th floor (via main lift), Birkbeck College,
Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX.

Are you interested in the possibility of cryonics - sometimes called
"a ticket to the future"?

Cryonics (to quote Wikipedia) is the low-temperature preservation of
humans and animals who can no longer be sustained by contemporary
medicine, with the hope that healing and resuscitation may be possible
in the future. The rationale for cryonics is that people who are
considered dead by current legal or medical definitions may not
necessarily be dead according to the more stringent
information-theoretic definition of death. It is proposed that
cryopreserved people might someday be recovered by using highly
advanced future technology.

About the speaker:

David Styles took over the role of "Organiser" for Cryonics UK from
his long-serving predecessor a year ago, and has been the actor of a
lot of change in that year. He is also serves on the Board of
Directors for the Immortality Institute, though his work for ImmInst
is not confined to cryonics-related matters.

About the talk:

David will describe the extent of changes in Cryonics UK over the
course of the past year since he last spoke in London. The talk will
include:

*) what problems and shortcomings have been remedied
*) how the organisation has grown and become stronger in that time
*) where UK suspension capabilities currently stand
*) where the organisation is going from here.

There's no charge to attend this meeting, and everyone is welcome.

Why not join some of the meetup regulars for a drink and/or light
lunch beforehand, any time after 12.30pm, in The Marlborough Arms, 36
Torrington Place, London WC1E 7HJ. To find us, look out for a table
where there's a copy of the Stephen Hall's book "Merchants of
immortality: chasing the dream of human life extension" displayed.

Informal discussion and socialising will continue after the event,
back in the Marlborough Arms, for those who wish to spare the time.

Reminder: as a break with recent custom, this UKH+ meeting is
happening on a Sunday, rather than on a Saturday.


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun May  2 06:55:39 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 23:55:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BDD21EB.4060804@mac.com>

Mike Dougherty wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net 
> <mailto:wingcat at pacbell.net>> wrote:
>
>
>     Yes.  However, retrieval isn't as big a problem as
>     securing the area against others who would like to
>     "retrieve" what you de-orbited (ruining the whole point
>     of the operation).  (You'll also need to secure against
>     spectators.)  Unless you can get at least Predator-grade
>     unmanned vehicles, you're going to need your own humans
>     present, for security at least.
>
>
> I thought our big problem was getting stuff out of earth's gravity 
> well, not flinging stuff down into it.
>
> If you can gather enough mass together from outside earth, why not 
> park and use it for a space elevator?  Then you'd just ferry the 
> useful bits down the elevator to counter other useful (probably 
> expensive) stuff going up to do more elaborate processing.  After you 
> get enough useful mass parked, processed and upgraded for other cool 
> uses wouldn't we be in a better position to launch new efforts 
> directly from space?

A space elevator comes much later.  You need exotic materials, very 
fancy engineering and an awful lot of red tape and insurance to tackle 
that one.  A lot more than dropping a few things in deserted areas 
requires.
>
> Hurling rocks at the ground (no matter how accurately) seems like a 
> lot of inefficiency.
>
Heck, gravity does the work for you except for packing it up and a bit 
of small scale cosmic pool to set its trajectory.

Personally, the main wonderful thing to me about developing near earth 
resources is that you get all that lovely useful very heavy material 
"out there". out of the gravity well, without having to mortgage the 
entire planet to get it there.    Using that material you can build out 
space based solar and solve what is probably I most pressing immediate 
issue on earth, the pending Energy Crisis.    You can also drop down 
critical  materials we are running low on down here.  The precious 
metals are mainly, in my mind, a way to quickly fund more launches and 
amass a lot of working capital while the groundlings come to understand 
the huge future value of what you are gathering in orbit.

Space elevators?  Sure, but a bit down the road.

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun May  2 07:03:26 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 00:03:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <672555.73096.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>
	<672555.73096.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BDD23BE.8030301@mac.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:
> From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 8:39:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
>
>
>
>   
>> I thought our big problem was getting stuff out of earth's gravity well, not flinging stuff down into it.
>>
>> If you can gather enough mass together from outside earth, why not park and use it for a space elevator?  Then you'd just ferry the useful bits down the elevator to counter other useful (probably expensive) stuff going up to do more elaborate processing.  After you get enough useful mass parked, processed and upgraded for other cool uses wouldn't we be in a better position to launch new efforts directly from space?
>>
>> Hurling rocks at the ground (no matter how accurately) seems like a lot of inefficiency.
>>
>> Maybe I'm missing something; this is something like rocket science...
>>
>>     
>
> Being able to hurl rocks from space at the ground accurately is certain to get the undivided attention of the UN security council in a way normally reserved for nukes. Not that I am against it in principle, just that I am certain there would be greater challenges than just the technical aspects.
>   

We already sorta have this ability.  See Project Thor from the 60s for a 
simple but deadly lesser application.  Hooking some thrusters to a rock 
after despinning it and aiming reasonably well aren't that hard.  Of 
course reasonably well for something like this may be in a radius of 
miles where Thor was from very low orbiting satellites and the spears 
had tail fins and some primitive control structures.  So it isn't a 
terribly deadly weapon compared to nukes and a rather pricey way to get 
that much effect.  At least for now.  Now big mass drivers on the moon 
slinging well designed hunks of material along known trajectories (Moon 
is a Harsh Mistress) may be another story.  Dunno.  It is something to 
think about but the payoff and the need is much much greater than this 
danger.

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun May  2 07:07:28 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 00:07:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First scrape at Energy Crisis
In-Reply-To: <4BDD23BE.8030301@mac.com>
References: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>
	<672555.73096.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4BDD23BE.8030301@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4BDD24B0.10806@mac.com>

This is a bare beginning of this large topic but here is a short 
presentation from todays Fulfillment group meeting in SL.  It is in 
simple web form from my notes with chat interspersed. 

http://soft-transcend.org/~samantha/fulfillment/EnergyCrisis

- samantha



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun May  2 11:24:26 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 13:24:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Stephen Baxter's Titan
In-Reply-To: <4BD9EE00.80107@mac.com>
References: <u2h710b78fc1004282143m6ac1b770sb9ec6dd2d7a713fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<5FBA2B2925404AA4BF1A87298C2E7FD0@spike> <4BD9EE00.80107@mac.com>
Message-ID: <y2p580930c21005020424g50159651p37d28a77bddd7698@mail.gmail.com>

2010/4/29 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
> Carter may have belonged to a fairly fundamentalist sect but he was pretty liberal.? Even Reagan was liberal in his religious remarks compared to GW Bush and to some degree Bush senior as well.? The latter claimed that atheists were not really Americans, for instance.

Why, I am inclined to believe that monotheists are not really
European, so I discern a simmetry here. :-D

> I had more than a few friends who did heavy science, especially physics majors when space was HOT and there was that push to not be left behind in science and math.? In the 70s most of them ended up moving to software or in some cases, pumping gas.? It was pretty sad.

Indeed. I remember children wanting to be "scientists" or
"astronauts"; that this is not the case anymore is eloquent of
changing societal values, relative status levels and even monetary
recognition. It remains to be be seen how long a society can survive
where a scientist is somebody who was unfortunately not gifted enough
to become a merchant banker, a fund manager or a marketing
consultant...

--
Stefano Vaj



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun May  2 11:33:31 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 06:33:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Comp-neuro] Abstract Deadline Extended to May 4: HIVE
	(Hyper Interaction Viability Experiments) Workshop (Barcelona,
	June 2010)
In-Reply-To: <w2k79f344fe1005010352sf7125193ve06098259cf4649@mail.gmail.com>
References: <w2k79f344fe1005010352sf7125193ve06098259cf4649@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <y2s55ad6af71005020433m16aeca0bt97b58a792cba5c12@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Diane Whitmer <diane.whitmer at starlab.es>
Date: Sat, May 1, 2010 at 5:52 AM
Subject: [Comp-neuro] Abstract Deadline Extended to May 4: HIVE (Hyper
Interaction Viability Experiments) Workshop (Barcelona, June 2010)
To: "SPM at JISCMAIL.AC.UK" <spm at jiscmail.ac.uk>,
eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu, CompNeuro <comp-neuro at neuroinf.org>,
all at hive-eu.org


The deadline for abstract submission has been extended to May 4, 2010.

We hereby invite contributions to this first public Hyper Interaction
Viability Experiments workshop (Barcelona, June 11th 2010).
Contributions must be of a high scientific level, and typically would
describe, attempt to understand, or engineer brain stimulation
phenomena as well as clinical applications.

Please visit HIVE2010 (http://www.hive-eu.org/hive2010/home) for more
information.

The HIVE project is an ongoing 4-year multidisciplinary European
project. The project is hosting an open workshop to all participants
working in this field in order to enhance discussion and include
presentations on the most current research. All researchers are kindly
asked to submit their latest research results to this workshop.

________________________________________________

The workshop is a dedicated satellite meeting to the international
Human Brain Mapping conference and will be held in Barcelona on Friday
June 11th, 2010.

This 1-day event will be held at Barcelona's CosmoCaixa Science Museum
and Starlab, on Friday June 11, 2010.

There will be 3 keynote speakers in addition to regular talks and posters:

? ?* Prof. Niels Birbaumer
? ?* Prof. Alvaro Pascual-Leone
? ?* Dr. Demetrios N. Velis, M.D.

__________________________________________________________

Could computers someday interact directly with the human brain? The
vision of HIVE is that in the next 50 years we will witness the coming
of age of technologies for fluent brain-computer and computer-mediated
brain-to-brain interaction. While recent research has delivered
important breakthroughs in brain-to-computer transmission, little has
been achieved in the other direction??computer-controlled brain
stimulation. The goal of the workshop is to present research on a new
generation of powerful and controllable non-invasive brain stimulation
technologies. State-of-the-art presentations on current distribution
and multi-scale neuron current interaction modeling will be presented.
Results from stimulation experiments using tDCS, TMS, EEG and fMRI in
different scenarios are given in overview and original presentations.
Discussions during the workshop will lead to the design of multisite
transcranial current stimulation technologies using real time EEG
monitoring and feedback.

Given the fundamental role of interaction in human experience,
advances in this area can deliver breakthrough information society
technologies of great value in addition to advancing the
state-of-the-art in fundamental neuroscience research, neurology
diagnosis and therapy through this workshop.


_______________________________________________
Comp-neuro mailing list
Comp-neuro at neuroinf.org
http://www.neuroinf.org/mailman/listinfo/comp-neuro




-- 
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sun May  2 15:00:27 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 11:00:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <4BDD23BE.8030301@mac.com>
References: <201005010145.o411jIKp001275@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<502716.79546.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<r2v62c14241004302039y23df2e11z116fc1e1d97aa629@mail.gmail.com>
	<672555.73096.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4BDD23BE.8030301@mac.com>
Message-ID: <201005021501.o42F1RLE015049@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Samantha wrote:

>We already sorta have this ability.  See Project Thor from the 60s 
>for a simple but deadly lesser application.  Hooking some thrusters 
>to a rock after despinning it and aiming reasonably well aren't that 
>hard.  Of course reasonably well for something like this may be in a 
>radius of miles where Thor was from very low orbiting satellites and 
>the spears had tail fins and some primitive control structures.  So 
>it isn't a terribly deadly weapon compared to nukes and a rather 
>pricey way to get that much effect.  At least for now.  Now big mass 
>drivers on the moon slinging well designed hunks of material along 
>known trajectories (Moon is a Harsh Mistress) may be another 
>story.  Dunno.  It is something to think about but the payoff and 
>the need is much much greater than this danger.

You assume rationality. The perception of threat might be greater than
even Adrian and Stuart have imagined.

(There's been some interesting work on the gulfs (as much as factors
of 10^6) between actual risk and perception of risk. I could post refs if
anyone cares about the subject.)

I discussed asteroid mining with a friend once, who was convinced that
anyone seriously attempting to redirect an asteroidal mass to our
vicinity (e.g., within a light-second) would be killed. That governments
would treat it as a terrorist action, without regard to the payoff or
negligible risks.

On the other hand, we have aspects of genetic engineering, the Large
Hadron Collider, etc., that were able to proceed, in spite of trumpeting
of nightmare scenarios.

*I've* found asteroid mining obvious and compelling since the space
industrialization work of the 70's, but I find all sorts of things obvious
and compelling that most people find loony.

(Thankfully I have so many fellow nutters, especially here.)

I guess the answer lies in being able to adapt the development plan
to a range of values for political or legal constraints.

The kick-start idea as we've been discussing it assumes that an
inbound package of bulk materials includes only components that
can be fabricated with space-derived materials by tele-operation or
autonomous robotics (e.g., a stone or iron shell, a deposited reflective
coating) or that were brought up from Earth but are small, sturdy,
and light (e.g., some form of transponder).

What if material descent must adhere to existing norms for human
flight return? Does that kill the idea? What if nothing can be brought
closer than the lunar radius, or only by powered (or even manned)
flight?

Conversely, if constraints are loosened, can the business smoothly
adapt to take advantage? (If not, a second mover might be the
winner, by avoiding the costs sunk by the first up.)


-- David.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun May  2 20:10:17 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 13:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
Message-ID: <723881.74004.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Sat, 5/1/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> The precious
> metals are mainly, in my mind, a way to quickly fund more launches and
> amass a lot of working capital while the groundlings come to understand
> the huge future value of what you are gathering in orbit.

Quite.  Say it takes 10 years, including all design and engineering and
financing/business development (yes, that's going to take non-trivial
time), until we get first sale of platinum from an asteroid in orbit.
Say it's a small one, so even working slowly, we consume it entirely in
only 2 years (selling metal on the ground, maybe a little early space
manufacturing to build stuff in orbit - whatever, it's all used).  Two
things then happen:

1. Whoever did it presumably has more than enough money to do it again.
Not to mention, designs, talent, and other things needed to build the
probe, machinery, and other things needed to do it again.  They'll
quite probably go get another asteroid.  With a lot of the development
(and financing) already taken care of, not to mention knowing some ways
to refine the process, they can do it faster.

2. Other people, capable of doing it but not believing it could be
done safely & profitably - or just not taking space industry seriously
- sit up and take notice.  Most likely, some of them go get their own
asteroids, some of them openly imitating the original project.

This starts to feed on itself.  What happens if this causes an
exponential curve - something like Moore's Law - to apply to the amount
of raw material humanity harvests from asteroids each year, after the
first asteroid is done?  And, as a consequence, to the amount of solar
energy harvested each year?  (If building another solar power
satellite is substantially cheaper than building another coal plant -
or even about the same, since solar energy is effectively free, so the
ongoing cost is much less - then simple economics can displace fossil
fuels, at least for non-mobile power generation.  If energy gets
cheap enough, synthetic gasoline eventually gets cheaper than the real
thing, even assuming no further progress in electric vehicles.  And so
on.)


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun May  2 21:24:10 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 14:24:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <723881.74004.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <723881.74004.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BDDED7A.4000907@mac.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:
> --- On Sat, 5/1/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>   
>> The precious
>> metals are mainly, in my mind, a way to quickly fund more launches and
>> amass a lot of working capital while the groundlings come to understand
>> the huge future value of what you are gathering in orbit.
>>     
>
> Quite.  Say it takes 10 years, including all design and engineering and
> financing/business development (yes, that's going to take non-trivial
> time), until we get first sale of platinum from an asteroid in orbit.
> Say it's a small one, so even working slowly, we consume it entirely in
> only 2 years (selling metal on the ground, maybe a little early space
> manufacturing to build stuff in orbit - whatever, it's all used).  Two
> things then happen:
>
> 1. Whoever did it presumably has more than enough money to do it again.
> Not to mention, designs, talent, and other things needed to build the
> probe, machinery, and other things needed to do it again.  They'll
> quite probably go get another asteroid.  With a lot of the development
> (and financing) already taken care of, not to mention knowing some ways
> to refine the process, they can do it faster.
>
> 2. Other people, capable of doing it but not believing it could be
> done safely & profitably - or just not taking space industry seriously
> - sit up and take notice.  Most likely, some of them go get their own
> asteroids, some of them openly imitating the original project.
>
> This starts to feed on itself.  What happens if this causes an
> exponential curve - something like Moore's Law - to apply to the amount
> of raw material humanity harvests from asteroids each year, after the
> first asteroid is done?  And, as a consequence, to the amount of solar
> energy harvested each year?  (If building another solar power
> satellite is substantially cheaper than building another coal plant -
> or even about the same, since solar energy is effectively free, so the
> ongoing cost is much less - then simple economics can displace fossil
> fuels, at least for non-mobile power generation.  If energy gets
> cheap enough, synthetic gasoline eventually gets cheaper than the real
> thing, even assuming no further progress in electric vehicles.  And so
> on.)
>   

Hell yes!  That is the general idea.

I think with plentiful solar power from space that most current energy 
sources will eventually be displaced except for usages we can't quite 
convert yet.  Plentiful cheap energy and abundant materials are key to 
continuing progress toward the future we dream of.

- samantha

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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon May  3 13:41:54 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 13:41:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <mailman.158.1272800020.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <217667.28401.qm@web27002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Regarding sending cargoes back to earth - has anyone else read "Man and the Planets" by Duncan Lunan? It was quite popular back in the 80s in the UK. The chapter on asteroids includes a good table of asteroidal composition of rocky asteroids, although it's probably very out of date now.

This book is an enthusiastic cheerleader for the "Waverider" concept of lifting body. These have the effect of generating the re-entry plasma underneath the airframe only, so keeping the upperside clear and exposed to lower temperatures. In addition to allowing some forms of gliding re-entry missions on planets with atmospheres, it also allows you to keep in radio contact with re-entering objects. This will allow you to track objects in re-entry, and allows the possibility of radio control from earth.

Another good method for taking objects down to earth would be the continuous loop style of space elevator - this would allow you to use the energy of what's coming down to offset the energy you expend lifting things up. As I understand it, this style of space elevator is massively more demanding than simpler designs relying on a tapered cable and beamed power, and the simpler designs are still beyond current technology. Still, once we're dropping high-value cargo down from orbit, I'm sure the commercial demand will drive development of more efficient uses.

Tom


      



From spike66 at att.net  Wed May  5 02:03:29 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:03:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
In-Reply-To: <839684.82013.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201004301802.o3UI2FYN019640@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<839684.82013.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C5CFFE8DBD4D4F0498C7CEBECF067909@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of 
> Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Mining the Sky SL Talk I gave today
> 
> --- On Fri, 4/30/10, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> > The key is the concept: Rather than worrying about 
> predicting where it 
> > will land, why not try to make it easy to find once it has?
> 
> Because landing it anywhere near a populated area will get 
> you tossed in jail, possibly for life, and/or executed, and 
> will set public opinion strongly against asteroid mining for 
> decades...

There is that.  The chances that it would fall into the sea is about 3/4.
{8-[  Add to that the risk the commies get aholt of it and cut it up and
pass it around to each according to his need.  Or that it falls into one of
those lands where one must be a Presbyterian to even enter.  Or it might
have been Episcopalian, I don't recall at the moment that religion that
tends to discourage those who are not believers from even the local tourist
attractions.  Methodist perhaps.  

Welcome back after all this time David!  How the heck long have you been
gone?

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Thu May  6 04:32:56 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:32:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
Message-ID: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>

Religious people sometimes have a collective moment of silence, to have a
brief interaction with their favorite deity.  Most of us here are flaming
atheists; I do not know what a group of atheists have a moment of.  But
whatever it is, do have one this Saturday, 8 May.  That will mark ten years
since the departure of our dear friend Sasha Chislenko.  
 
Is it even possible that he has been gone so long?  Is he not missed as if
he passed away yesterday?  His intellect and passion for extropy are
unequaled among those of us lucky enough to still be among the living.  I
recall fondly his passionate and stirring speech at Extro4, his love of ping
pong, our chess games, his deep and meaningful posts.  
 
Old timers here on ExI, if you knew him in any capacity, as one who followed
his work, as one who always eagerly read his posts, or just as a personal
friend, do feel free to post your memories.
 
Sasha, may your vision become our reality.  You are gone sir, but never
forgotten, never forgotten.
 
spike 
 
 
 
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu May  6 15:24:23 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:24:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
Message-ID: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>

Did you know an elephant could do this?  I had never heard of it.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk
 
 
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu May  6 15:59:58 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 17:59:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
Message-ID: <w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com>

I subscribed to this list only a few months before Sasha's death. I
never met him, and never exchanged emails with him. From his writings,
and from the strong impression he made on so many people on this list,
I see he must have been a true intellectual giant.
Here's to Sasha, and let's hope his beloved Science will manage to
bring him back in some meaningful sense some day.

2010/5/6 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> Religious people sometimes have a collective moment of silence, to have a
> brief interaction with their favorite deity.? Most of us here are flaming
> atheists; I do not?know what a group of atheists have a moment of.? But
> whatever it is, do have one this Saturday, 8 May.? That will mark ten years
> since the departure of our dear friend Sasha Chislenko.
>
> Is it even possible that he has been gone so long?? Is he?not missed as if
> he passed away yesterday?? His intellect and passion for extropy are
> unequaled among those of us lucky enough to still be among the living.??I
> recall fondly?his passionate and stirring speech at Extro4, his love of ping
> pong, our chess games, his deep and meaningful posts.
>
> Old timers here on ExI, if you knew?him in any capacity, as one who followed
> his work, as one who?always eagerly read his posts, or just as a?personal
> friend, do feel free to post your memories.
>
> Sasha,?may your vision become our reality.? You are gone sir, but never
> forgotten, never forgotten.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu May  6 16:03:52 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:03:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
Message-ID: <DEF2F6595D2C44EE8328052035A4AD3E@3DBOXXW4850>

I have a painting that the famous Washoe the chimp painted. 
http://www.friendsofwashoe.org/

I bought it from when I saw her at the Chimposium before she passed away: 
http://www.cwu.edu/~cwuchci/chimposiums.html

Washoe at youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=washoe+the+chimp+&aq=f

Gina Miller
www.nanogirl.com 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: spike 
  To: 'ExI chat list' 
  Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:24 AM
  Subject: [ExI] elephant painting


  Did you know an elephant could do this?  I had never heard of it.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May  6 16:13:36 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 11:13:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
Message-ID: <34BE1E5430794269AA7291FB61959B03@DFC68LF1>

I had seen a documentary where an elephant painted abstractly, but nothing
like this.  Thanks Spike.
 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 

  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 10:24 AM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting


Did you know an elephant could do this?  I had never heard of it.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk
 
 
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May  6 16:15:55 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 11:15:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
Message-ID: <58B3E7529B2744378B0A6C48B40C7AA8@DFC68LF1>

Thank you Sasha for being a dear friend and encouraging us all to play.
 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 

  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:33 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha


Religious people sometimes have a collective moment of silence, to have a
brief interaction with their favorite deity.  Most of us here are flaming
atheists; I do not know what a group of atheists have a moment of.  But
whatever it is, do have one this Saturday, 8 May.  That will mark ten years
since the departure of our dear friend Sasha Chislenko.  
 
Is it even possible that he has been gone so long?  Is he not missed as if
he passed away yesterday?  His intellect and passion for extropy are
unequaled among those of us lucky enough to still be among the living.  I
recall fondly his passionate and stirring speech at Extro4, his love of ping
pong, our chess games, his deep and meaningful posts.  
 
Old timers here on ExI, if you knew him in any capacity, as one who followed
his work, as one who always eagerly read his posts, or just as a personal
friend, do feel free to post your memories.
 
Sasha, may your vision become our reality.  You are gone sir, but never
forgotten, never forgotten.
 
spike 
 
 
 
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu May  6 16:56:47 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:56:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] David Orban on the Singularity University, Teleplace, May 11
Message-ID: <g2oe68fc1101005060956j8230129fnc51d0b8d92e92962@mail.gmail.com>

David Orban on the Singularity University, Teleplace, May 11
http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/05/david-orban-on-singularity-university.html

David Orban, Chairman of Humanity+ and Advisor to the Singularity
University, will give the second teleXLR8 talk in Teleplace on May 11,
2010, at 11pm continental EU (10pm UK, 2pm PST, 5pm EST). David will
present an overview of the Singularity University, including program
details and recent developments.

Date and time: Tuesday May 11 at 23pm continental EU (22pm UK, 2pm PST, 5pm EST)

Title: Presentation of the Singularity University

Abstract: The Singularity University (SU) is an interdisciplinary
university whose mission is to assemble, educate and inspire a cadre
of leaders who strive to understand and facilitate the development of
exponentially advancing technologies in order to address humanity?s
grand challenges. With the support of a broad range of leaders in
academia, business and government, SU hopes to stimulate
groundbreaking, disruptive thinking and solutions aimed at solving
some of the planet?s most pressing challenges. SU is based at the NASA
Ames campus in Silicon Valley and offers two main types of programs:
an annual 9-week Graduate Studies Program as well as 3- and 10-day
Executive Programs throughout the year.

Teleplace is one of the best 3D applications for telework, online
meetings, group collaboration, and e-learning in a virtual 3D
environment (v-learning). It is a powerful telepresence environment
where multiple participants can stream their webcam video to
interactive 3D online meeting areas and workspaces. The virtual 3D
space permits effectively organizing the work areas and creates the
impression of "being there", which is fundamental for effective remote
collaboration. One of the main features of Teleplace is its ability to
immediately import Office documents from the desktop for presentations
and collaborative editing.

The talk is sponsored by Teleplace and Italsat.

There are a few seats available for the online interactive event,
please contact me by email if you wish to attend, or request to join
the teleXLR8 Facebook group. For those who cannot attend, the talk
will be posted to telexlr8.blip.tv on May 12.



From spike66 at att.net  Thu May  6 16:59:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:59:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
	<w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7DAC2AB38C334A47A36AB0500943F06F@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
> Subject: Re: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, 
> for sasha
> 
> I subscribed to this list only a few months before Sasha's 
> death. I never met him, and never exchanged emails with him. 
> From his writings, and from the strong impression he made on 
> so many people on this list, I see he must have been a true 
> intellectual giant.

Ja he was that, and many things.  Everything with Sasha was so 100% full
throttle, no halfway anything.  My personal archives only go back to late
1999, so I have no examples from his posts unfortunately.  I hope we can
find some of his writing for the upcoming book by Natasha.  Perhaps some old
time ExI chatters have them in their archives.  On any list, there may be
hundreds of posters, many of whom we ignore or skim lightly, but we all have
a few people for whom we read every word, every time they post, the bright
lights.  We know who they are here, no need to name names.  Sasha was one of
the very bright lights in the 1990s.

spike




From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May  6 18:20:22 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 14:20:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <7DAC2AB38C334A47A36AB0500943F06F@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
	<w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com>
	<7DAC2AB38C334A47A36AB0500943F06F@spike>
Message-ID: <20100506142022.p205yj9a84kgc8ss@webmail.natasha.cc>

Sasha was the force behind the Transhumanist Declaration and the  
Transhumanist FAQ (which WTA acquired).

Natasha

Quoting spike <spike66 at att.net>:

>
>
>> ...On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of,
>> for sasha
>>
>> I subscribed to this list only a few months before Sasha's
>> death. I never met him, and never exchanged emails with him.
>> From his writings, and from the strong impression he made on
>> so many people on this list, I see he must have been a true
>> intellectual giant.
>
> Ja he was that, and many things.  Everything with Sasha was so 100% full
> throttle, no halfway anything.  My personal archives only go back to late
> 1999, so I have no examples from his posts unfortunately.  I hope we can
> find some of his writing for the upcoming book by Natasha.  Perhaps some old
> time ExI chatters have them in their archives.  On any list, there may be
> hundreds of posters, many of whom we ignore or skim lightly, but we all have
> a few people for whom we read every word, every time they post, the bright
> lights.  We know who they are here, no need to name names.  Sasha was one of
> the very bright lights in the 1990s.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>






From spike66 at att.net  Thu May  6 19:59:57 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 12:59:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <20100506142022.p205yj9a84kgc8ss@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike><w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com><7DAC2AB38C334A47A36AB0500943F06F@spike>
	<20100506142022.p205yj9a84kgc8ss@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <C7F340ECC41B4CC08F8D7DF799067011@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of 
> natasha at natasha.cc
>...
> 
> Sasha was the force behind the Transhumanist Declaration and 
> the Transhumanist FAQ (which WTA acquired).
> 
> Natasha

Hi Natasha, explain please "force behind."  Did Sasha write or help write,
or organize likeminded spirits to write the Transhumanist FAQ, and
Declaration, then WTA acquired the copyright?  Thanks for this, I didn't
know of the documents, or that Sasha was in on that.

spike




From sondheim at panix.com  Thu May  6 19:29:00 2010
From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 15:29:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
	<w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.00.1005061524530.29636@panix1.panix.com>



I'm just lurking here; I started a couple of lists with Michael Current, 
who has also died - Cybermind and Fiction-of-Philosophy (now Wryting-l). 
Sasha was on Cybermind and came to a couple of fleshmeets we had - I 
remember his warmth and clarity and good conversation - he's really missed 
by us. - Alan


On Thu, 6 May 2010, Giulio Prisco wrote:

> I subscribed to this list only a few months before Sasha's death. I
> never met him, and never exchanged emails with him. From his writings,
> and from the strong impression he made on so many people on this list,
> I see he must have been a true intellectual giant.
> Here's to Sasha, and let's hope his beloved Science will manage to
> bring him back in some meaningful sense some day.
>
> 2010/5/6 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>> Religious people sometimes have a collective moment of silence, to have a
>> brief interaction with their favorite deity.? Most of us here are flaming
>> atheists; I do not?know what a group of atheists have a moment of.? But
>> whatever it is, do have one this Saturday, 8 May.? That will mark ten years
>> since the departure of our dear friend Sasha Chislenko.
>>
>> Is it even possible that he has been gone so long?? Is he?not missed as if
>> he passed away yesterday?? His intellect and passion for extropy are
>> unequaled among those of us lucky enough to still be among the living.??I
>> recall fondly?his passionate and stirring speech at Extro4, his love of ping
>> pong, our chess games, his deep and meaningful posts.
>>
>> Old timers here on ExI, if you knew?him in any capacity, as one who followed
>> his work, as one who?always eagerly read his posts, or just as a?personal
>> friend, do feel free to post your memories.
>>
>> Sasha,?may your vision become our reality.? You are gone sir, but never
>> forgotten, never forgotten.
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


==
email archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/
webpage http://www.alansondheim.org
music archive: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/
==

From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May  6 20:37:51 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 16:37:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <C7F340ECC41B4CC08F8D7DF799067011@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike><w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com><7DAC2AB38C334A47A36AB0500943F06F@spike>
	<20100506142022.p205yj9a84kgc8ss@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<C7F340ECC41B4CC08F8D7DF799067011@spike>
Message-ID: <20100506163751.9o0wix9w08oowkk0@webmail.natasha.cc>

Sasha suggested we put together the FAQ and the Declaration.  The rest  
is history.  I'll see if I can find the early email exchanges over the  
weekend and post them if i do find them.

best,
N


Quoting spike <spike66 at att.net>:

>
>
>> ...On Behalf Of
>> natasha at natasha.cc
>> ...
>>
>> Sasha was the force behind the Transhumanist Declaration and
>> the Transhumanist FAQ (which WTA acquired).
>>
>> Natasha
>
> Hi Natasha, explain please "force behind."  Did Sasha write or help write,
> or organize likeminded spirits to write the Transhumanist FAQ, and
> Declaration, then WTA acquired the copyright?  Thanks for this, I didn't
> know of the documents, or that Sasha was in on that.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>





From pharos at gmail.com  Thu May  6 22:50:21 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:50:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
Message-ID: <r2nee50357e1005061550se4a9a18dxa0c301bdc101e02c@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/6/10, spike wrote:
> Did you know an elephant could do this?  I had never heard of it.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk
>
>


There you go spike.   Believing what you see with your own eyes again.  :)

This is an internet viral video. These elephants have even been on television.

Obviously if the elephant was a real artist he would be wearing a
beret and living in Paris.

Elephants are indeed very intelligent animals and have been trained to
hold a paintbrush and wipe it on paper.  Their splashes can be called
abstract art by today's standards of art.

Two elephants have been painstakingly trained to copy a particular
drawing. One draws an elephant (called a self portrait) and one draws
flowers.

They have been trained to do this because the paintings can be sold to
raise money for elephant conservation. A worthy cause.

See:
<http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/elephantpainting.asp>
and for details of the project:
<http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/history.php>
(including samples of their art).


BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May  6 23:06:25 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 18:06:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <r2nee50357e1005061550se4a9a18dxa0c301bdc101e02c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
	<r2nee50357e1005061550se4a9a18dxa0c301bdc101e02c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BE34B71.2080401@satx.rr.com>

On 5/6/2010 5:50 PM, BillK wrote:

> There you go spike.   Believing what you see with your own eyes again.  :)
>
> This is an internet viral video.

You heart-breaker, you.

Damien Broderick


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May  6 23:17:44 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 19:17:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <4BE34B71.2080401@satx.rr.com>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
	<r2nee50357e1005061550se4a9a18dxa0c301bdc101e02c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE34B71.2080401@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20100506191744.wcky55vo0884w8gg@webmail.natasha.cc>

Half-broken.  The fact that the elephants can be trained to do this is  
a wonder, not to mention the difficulty of holding a brush and  
painting which one's nose.

Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:

> On 5/6/2010 5:50 PM, BillK wrote:
>
>> There you go spike.   Believing what you see with your own eyes again.  :)
>>
>> This is an internet viral video.
>
> You heart-breaker, you.
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu May  6 23:47:49 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 16:47:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <20100506163751.9o0wix9w08oowkk0@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
	<w2ge68fc1101005060859s7011a791o7c14c8a62681d25d@mail.gmail.com>
	<7DAC2AB38C334A47A36AB0500943F06F@spike>
	<20100506142022.p205yj9a84kgc8ss@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<C7F340ECC41B4CC08F8D7DF799067011@spike>
	<20100506163751.9o0wix9w08oowkk0@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <o2y2d6187671005061647raa92f387kbf95de6cb45b662b@mail.gmail.com>

I dearly regret never having met him in person.  But I did have several
wonderful exchanges with him by email.  I will never forget how he offered
me a job, but I did not have close to the IT skills and education necessary
to accept it.  In another reality I might have moved to Boston to take
the position and really get to know him.

John
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

> Sasha suggested we put together the FAQ and the Declaration.  The rest is
> history.  I'll see if I can find the early email exchanges over the weekend
> and post them if i do find them.
>
> best,
>
> N
>
>
> Quoting spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
>
>>
>> ...On Behalf Of
>>> natasha at natasha.cc
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Sasha was the force behind the Transhumanist Declaration and
>>> the Transhumanist FAQ (which WTA acquired).
>>>
>>> Natasha
>>>
>>
>> Hi Natasha, explain please "force behind."  Did Sasha write or help write,
>> or organize likeminded spirits to write the Transhumanist FAQ, and
>> Declaration, then WTA acquired the copyright?  Thanks for this, I didn't
>> know of the documents, or that Sasha was in on that.
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu May  6 23:56:05 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:56:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <r2nee50357e1005061550se4a9a18dxa0c301bdc101e02c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
	<r2nee50357e1005061550se4a9a18dxa0c301bdc101e02c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33051.12.77.168.226.1273190165.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

>
> <http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/elephantpainting.asp>
>

Interesting.

It surprises me that the lady said the elephants cannot pick up the paintbrushes, as
elephants seemed to have had no trouble with peanuts at the zoo when I was a little
kid!

Regards,
MB



From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Fri May  7 02:15:15 2010
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 20:15:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
Message-ID: <4BE377B3.9060609@canonizer.com>

spike wrote:
> Old timers here on ExI, if you knew him in any capacity, as one who 
> followed his work, as one who always eagerly read his posts, or just 
> as a personal friend, do feel free to post your memories.
>  

Thanks Spike, for helping us remember that it has been 10 years.

Sasha and I were working on possible plans to do an internet startup 
together when he died.  What a sad day that was.  My world has 
definitely never been the same since he's been gone.

Below is his posting for his last Christmas, to the Exi List.  Now, 
everyone celebrates Newtonmas right?


Brent Allsop

===========================================================
 From owner-extropians at extropy.com Fri Dec 10 21:19:53 EST 1999
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X-Sender: sasha1 at netcom.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:58:05 -0600
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sasha Chislenko <sasha1 at netcom.com>
Subject: Merry Newtonmas!
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[ This is my traditional mailing at the end of the year; I am sending it
   out early this time so that you have time to pass this letter along to
   your friends.  Please let me know if you have any comments on this text.
- Sasha  ]

---------------------  Merry Newtonmass ! ------------------------

As you may know, Christmas as a holiday was instituted a few centuries
after the alleged birth of Christ, on the day when the non-Christian
population used to have their festivities anyway.  This operation to
ideologize the masses while letting them have their fun may have been
one of the most crucial and successful ideological decisions in the
history of the human society.

This later became a typical trick of subverting the meaning of an
event while preserving people's favorite ritual shell.

As an attempt to do this again for a good cause, some good people (*)
came up with a suggestion to celebrate Newtonmas instead of Christmas.
Unlike Christ, Sir Isaac Newton was definitely born on December 25.
Newton's contribution to the world of reason and influence of his
thoughts on the essence of the modern civilization and worldviews and
occupations of most readers of this message - not to mention on the
existence of the technological systems that made sending this message
possible - is a lot more certain than contributions ever ascribed to
Christ.

   So why not put some sense into your festivities and celebrate Newtonmas
this year?  This can be fun too!  You can play various games with apples
(grown and kept fresh until winter by modern industry), and decorate
the technological objects that have been bringing you so much joy this
year - from your PC to TV set to your car.  You can also dress up as
Solar Cause and bring your children (together with sounds "He! He! He!"
- an expression of playfulness and the chemical sign for Helium) stories
about the real source of life and energy on this little planet.
A figure of Luna, a friendly companion of Solar Cause, may bring an
additional participant into your performance, and show the spectators
that the best effects result from long-term collaboration of real-life
forces, and that they can learn in every detail how things work, understand
the world they live in, and make it still better with the combined power
of their own minds and bodies.


   Merry Newtonmas, everybody!


(*) See also the story of Ex-Mass and Solar Cause by Tom 0. Morrow at
http://members.aol.com/t0morrow/Ex-Mass.html




-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Chislenko   <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html>
Great Thinkers page:  <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/thinkers.html>
Mailing list:    <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/visionaries>
-------------------------------------------------------------------





From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri May  7 03:20:30 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 20:20:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
Message-ID: <4BE386FE.6080106@mac.com>

spike wrote:
> Religious people sometimes have a collective moment of silence, to 
> have a brief interaction with their favorite deity.  Most of us here 
> are flaming atheists; I do not know what a group of atheists have a 
> moment of.  But whatever it is, do have one this Saturday, 8 May.  
> That will mark ten years since the departure of our dear friend Sasha 
> Chislenko. 
>  
> Is it even possible that he has been gone so long?  Is he not missed 
> as if he passed away yesterday?  His intellect and passion for extropy 
> are unequaled among those of us lucky enough to still be among the 
> living.  I recall fondly his passionate and stirring speech at Extro4, 
> his love of ping pong, our chess games, his deep and meaningful posts.  
>  
> Old timers here on ExI, if you knew him in any capacity, as one who 
> followed his work, as one who always eagerly read his posts, or just 
> as a personal friend, do feel free to post your memories.
>  
> Sasha, may your vision become our reality.  You are gone sir, but 
> never forgotten, never forgotten.

I will take a moment or several to think of Sasha, although I never had 
the pleasure, and of other dear ones lost.   A moment of quiet 
dedication to remaking the world and ourselves so that such losses 
someday end.

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri May  7 03:28:04 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 20:28:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
Message-ID: <4BE388C4.4000302@mac.com>

First I see a clip of a dog coming out and dragging another dog off the 
interstate and now this elephant.  Are the animals getting smarter or 
what?  I can't draw and elephant that well!

- samantha

spike wrote:
> Did you know an elephant could do this?  I had never heard of it.
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk
>  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

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From olga.bourlin at gmail.com  Fri May  7 04:21:37 2010
From: olga.bourlin at gmail.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:21:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
Message-ID: <w2le65701211005062121v4d7025c7ya4074a9b3a58d7fd@mail.gmail.com>

DIRGE WITHOUT MUSIC

By Edna St. Vincent Millay

I am not resigned to the shutting away of loving hearts in the hard ground.
So it is, and so it will be, for so it has been, time out of mind:
Into the darkness they go, the wise and the lovely. Crowned
With lilies and with laurel they go; but I am not resigned.

Lovers and thinkers, into the earth with you.
Be one with the dull, the indiscriminate dust.
A fragment of what you felt, of what you knew,
A formula, a phrase remains, --- but the best is lost.

The answers quick and keen, the honest look, the laughter, the love --
They are gone. They have gone to feed the roses. Elegant and curled
Is the blossom. Fragrant is the blossom. I know. But I do not approve.
More precious was the light in your eyes than all the roses in the world.

Down, down, down into the darkness of the grave
Gently they go, the beautiful, the tender, the kind;
Quietly they go, the intelligent, the witty, the brave.
I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned.


2010/5/5 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> Religious people sometimes have a collective moment of silence, to have a
> brief interaction with their favorite deity.? Most of us here are flaming
> atheists; I do not?know what a group of atheists have a moment of.? But
> whatever it is, do have one this Saturday, 8 May.? That will mark ten years
> since the departure of our dear friend Sasha Chislenko.
>
> Is it even possible that he has been gone so long?? Is he?not missed as if
> he passed away yesterday?? His intellect and passion for extropy are
> unequaled among those of us lucky enough to still be among the living.??I
> recall fondly?his passionate and stirring speech at Extro4, his love of ping
> pong, our chess games, his deep and meaningful posts.
>
> Old timers here on ExI, if you knew?him in any capacity, as one who followed
> his work, as one who?always eagerly read his posts, or just as a?personal
> friend, do feel free to post your memories.
>
> Sasha,?may your vision become our reality.? You are gone sir, but never
> forgotten, never forgotten.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri May  7 10:31:03 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 06:31:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <4BE386FE.6080106@mac.com>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike> <4BE386FE.6080106@mac.com>
Message-ID: <33137.12.77.168.229.1273228263.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


Yes, I will remember Sasha, among the other dearly loved lost ones.

Regards,
MB



From mail at harveynewstrom.com  Sat May  8 17:57:48 2010
From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:57:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
In-Reply-To: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
Message-ID: <201005081357.49319.mail@harveynewstrom.com>

On Thursday 06 May 2010 12:32:56 am spike wrote:
> Religious people sometimes have a collective moment of silence, to have a
> brief interaction with their favorite deity.  Most of us here are flaming
> atheists; I do not know what a group of atheists have a moment of.

Memory.  Thought.  Retrospection.

> whatever it is, do have one this Saturday, 8 May.  That will mark ten years
> since the departure of our dear friend Sasha Chislenko.

Ten years already?  I miss Sasha.  This still hurts like hell.

> Sasha, may your vision become our reality.  You are gone sir, but never
> forgotten, never forgotten.

So many people.  So little progress.  Never forgotten.

Thanks, Spike.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom <www.HarveyNewstrom.com>



From spike66 at att.net  Sat May  8 22:13:07 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 15:13:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <4BE388C4.4000302@mac.com>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike> <4BE388C4.4000302@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7DAB43DB28ED43A5A175ADFDB7CD9A65@spike>

 

...On Behalf Of samantha
...
	Subject: Re: [ExI] elephant painting
	
	
	...Are the animals getting smarter or what?...	- samantha


Excellent question.  I am persuaded that animals are becoming dramatically
smarter as they come into contact with humans, and humans are becoming
smarter from contact with other animals.  Humans have undergone a huge
transformation in our ways in just the last few centuries.  I am watching
the local ravens.  A few years ago, I saw for the first time ravens putting
hickory nuts on the road to be crushed by passing cars.  Now we have one or
more doing that in my own neighborhood.  Not only that, the raven is putting
the nuts at the end of a driveway, and aligning it with the tires of a
parked car.  Last week I obliged her and ran over the nut.  This week there
are several more out there.  Funny, I have been a beast watcher for, well
always, and I am seeing what I think is a fundamental change in the behavior
of some beasts, to best take advantage of human technology.

spike

 
	
	



From davidmc at gmail.com  Sun May  9 02:07:43 2010
From: davidmc at gmail.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:07:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [Act]  a moment of whatever you have a moment of,
	for sasha
In-Reply-To: <r2h89ede9de1005081110ga2ed591h4ee6be681c998bc5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ABC0A16910E94A9F80DC65DE055C0BD6@spike>
	<201005081357.49319.mail@harveynewstrom.com>
	<r2h89ede9de1005081110ga2ed591h4ee6be681c998bc5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g2gc934387b1005081907i57ac4ecy2e43a28b3bfad344@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html
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From max at maxmore.com  Sun May  9 03:05:12 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 22:05:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] a moment of whatever you have a moment of, for sasha
Message-ID: <201005090332.o493W0Tc015046@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

In The Transhumanist Reader -- a collection of definitive 
transhumanist writings from the 1980s on gathered by myself, Natasha 
Vita-More, and Anders Sandberg, we already intend to include Sasha's 
"Intelligent Information Filters and Enhanced Reality" (from Extropy #16).

Are there any other favorite pieces of Sasha's that you would like to 
see included?

Max



-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 10 05:53:34 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:53:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
Message-ID: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>

How the hell did we get here?
 
http://www.palibandaily.com/2010/05/08/polish-pop-star-faces-two-years-priso
n-for-blasphemy/
 
spike
 
 
 
 
Think the religious right goes overboard in the US? Under Poland's blasphemy
law, a Polish pop singer is facing two years in jail for interview comments
about the Bible. 

26-year-old Dorota Rabczewska, known as "Doda", is a Polish pop star.
Generally not much different from American pop stars - other than being a
member of MENSA <http://www.mensa.org/>  - Doda likes to speak her mind.
That's gotten her into some hot water this time around.

In a television interview last year, Doda explained that she found it far
easier to believe in dinosaurs than the Bible; "it is hard to believe in
something written by people who drank too much wine and smoked herbal
cigarettes."

Polish Catholics weren't too pleased. Under Poland's draconian blasphemy
law, simply offending someone's religious sensibilities can earn you hefty
fines and even imprisonment...

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon May 10 16:25:41 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:25:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Humanity+ Summit at Harvard University - June 12-13
Message-ID: <48A147A9645F455E8F664B76C4ED84C4@DFC68LF1>

http://hplussummit.com/about.html
 
Hope to see you there!
 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon May 10 17:37:17 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:37:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Divenire Breaking News!!
Message-ID: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>

As some of you may recall, *Divenire. Rassegna di Studi Interdisciplinari
sulla Tecnica e il Postumano *is the only explicitely transhumanist and
"scholarly" magazine/collective-book series in Europe, and one of the main
efforts of the Associazione Italiana
Transumanisti<http://www.transumanisti.it>aimed at the diffusion of H+
ideas, also thank to the contributions of
several high-profile authors from very diverse fields and philosophical
backgrounds.

Now, *Divenire* is also on the Web, at the address
*http://www.divenire.org*<http://www.divenire.org>
*, *where the articles and essays included in the first two volumes have
already been made available full-text, both for online access and as PDF
files, together with the summaries, the contributors' bios, the list of the
members of the scientific board, etc.

In the AIT's plans, in order not to interfere too much with the sales of the
paper version, each issue will be regularly uploaded when the subsequent
volume is in print. Original versions, and/or translations, of such texts
might be added or linked at a later stage.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 10 17:54:39 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 18:54:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Divenire Breaking News!!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/10/10, Stefano Vaj  wrote:
> As some of you may recall, Divenire. Rassegna di Studi Interdisciplinari
> sulla Tecnica e il Postumano is the only explicitely transhumanist and
> "scholarly" magazine/collective-book series in Europe, and one of the main
> efforts of the Associazione Italiana Transumanisti aimed at the diffusion of
> H+ ideas, also thank to the contributions of several high-profile authors
> from very diverse fields and philosophical backgrounds.
>
> Now, Divenire is also on the Web, at the address http://www.divenire.org,
> where the articles and essays included in the first two volumes have already
> been made available full-text, both for online access and as PDF files,
> together with the summaries, the contributors' bios, the list of the members
> of the scientific board, etc.
>
> In the AIT's plans, in order not to interfere too much with the sales of the
> paper version, each issue will be regularly uploaded when the subsequent
> volume is in print. Original versions, and/or translations, of such texts
> might be added or linked at a later stage.
>
> --


Unfortunately divenire appears to be a totally Flash 10 driven site.

This means that foreign users cannot use the 'Translate this page' feature.
(Because there isn't a web page, just a Flash picture).

We can translate AIT pages just fine, for example.

How about a 'Bypass Flash' button which links to normal web pages?


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon May 10 20:20:37 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 22:20:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Divenire Breaking News!!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 May 2010 19:54, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately divenire appears to be a totally Flash 10 driven site.
>
> This means that foreign users cannot use the 'Translate this page' feature.
> (Because there isn't a web page, just a Flash picture).
>
> We can translate AIT pages just fine, for example.
>

All articles and essays and bios are plain vanilla HTML, or PDF. Only the
navigation pages are entirely Flash - not my choice, for that matter... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 10 21:24:31 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 22:24:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Divenire Breaking News!!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimEFWDBzMxuwaKzTl5XEgwZJdzE4wMm6PKogfLV@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/10/10, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> All articles and essays and bios are plain vanilla HTML, or PDF. Only the
> navigation pages are entirely Flash - not my choice, for that matter... :-)
>
>


After checking, you are correct!
The HTML articles translate OK.

Though some of the author pages give a 404 not found.
Presumably they are still to be written.

Now I just have to learn enough Italian to understand the navigation.  ;)


BillK


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue May 11 01:21:50 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 03:21:50 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 9 May 2010, spike wrote:

> How the hell did we get here?
>  
> http://www.palibandaily.com/2010/05/08/polish-pop-star-faces-two-years-priso
> n-for-blasphemy/
>  
> spike

Well, just in case this is not a sublime joke that I do not get. And in 
case this all goes into some archive, and someone in the future is 
misinformed.

I find the article (and majority of comments) as interesting material for 
study of humanity's mental degringolade. It inflates some almost 
non-existing issue into a case, upon which other people debate, take 
sides, maybe even go to war over it. To be more explicit, my state does 
not persecute people for their criticism of someone's religion. Some 
people may, or may not, feel depressed about Doda and they may choose to 
fill a case - which they have right to do in a democratic country.

As an information source, I would stay away from such articles.

In one comment, there is a link to much better informed stuff:

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c1je9/polish_pop_star_faces_two_years_prison_for/c0pmkx5

With that being said, I must add that Doda is already in prison (be 
warned, she is naked) and for quite some time:

http://www.pudelek.pl/artykul/16061

Also, the page reminds me (never too much of this) about how not to judge 
some unknown people or country by one example. So, for this, thanks, even 
though I guess this wasn't your intention. Or was it?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 02:54:15 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:54:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
> ...
> 
> In one comment, there is a link to much better informed stuff:
> 
>
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c1je9/polish_pop_star_faces_two_y
ears_prison_for/c0pmkx5

Cool thanks Tomasz.

> 
> With that being said, I must add that Doda is already in 
> prison (be warned, she is naked) and for quite some time:
> 
> http://www.pudelek.pl/artykul/16061
> 

Oh my, I'm in love.  {8^D  She is adorable.  Smart too!  The wiki page
points out that she is a Mensan, with an IQ of 156.  She should be posting
here.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doda_(singer)

I need to check out the music of this multi-talented artist, athlete,
babe-alicious, brainy person and atheist.  Tomasz, since you share her
language and homeland, do invite her to our gathering, and assure her we are
already big fans.

> Also, the page reminds me (never too much of this) about how 
> not to judge some unknown people or country by one example. 
> So, for this, thanks, even though I guess this wasn't your 
> intention. Or was it?
> 
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola

Nah, your site explains it, thanks.  Buncha religious wackos rattling their
phony sabres.  We probably have laws like this in the US, although our own
Keith Henson is the only person I have ever heard of to actually be
prosecuted for that.  This case actually should help get those silly laws
off the books, and prevent the Church of L.Ron from taking advantage of the
law to harass and imprison its many enemies.

spike





From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue May 11 03:14:45 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Honda's High Tech Weight Gain Device
Message-ID: <939483.16872.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

The technology and engineering is very cool but I would have prefered a long-range high-speed vehicle rather than an excuse not to walk a few hundred yards.?Imagine a motorcyle-type device?with that traction and balance technology though. Wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ&feature=popt02us03

Stuart LaForge 


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert 


      




From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 04:39:09 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 21:39:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Honda's High Tech Weight Gain Device
In-Reply-To: <939483.16872.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <939483.16872.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <66DC9146C00A42F69BC6609A236B9281@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
...
> Subject: [ExI] Honda's High Tech Weight Gain Device
> 
> The technology and engineering is very cool but I would have 
> prefered a long-range high-speed vehicle rather than an 
> excuse not to walk a few hundred yards...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ&feature=popt02us03
> 
> Stuart LaForge 

Stuart, it isn't about avoiding walking but rather the absolutely obvious
application for this technology: racing.  In modern motorized racing, the
fundamental problem is that the vehicles are now just going too damn fast,
making it too dangerous for the participants.  Over time the vehicles in any
given class converge in design, so that they are functionally identical, and
the strategies for going at top speed also converge, making all the
participants appear nearly identical.  For instance, check out the turn at
about 1:07 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3po4aI72ovQ

Even those who like motorcycle racing will hafta admit it is almost boring.
The bikes all look alike, the best riders all ride alike.

Now consider a new game: racing single wheeled vehicles.  Coolness number 1.
it isn't at all obvious how to make the best design,  2. the winning
strategy has not yet been invented or discovered.  3.  Lotta new technology
will be spun off from people trying to find out how to best do it.  4.
Single wheel vehicles will not be very fast, they can't be, too many design
restrictions, so 5.  They will crash a lot but not slay the proles riding
them or seriously damage the vehicles, which would make the game interesting
and hilarious, which would 6. help put the butts in the seats and make
money.  What's not to like?

This sport is ready to go now.  Take this gadget Honda has developed, set up
two cones on a flat surface such as a warehouse, race the oval.  Or race
them on ice.  Or mud.  Or on a rubber track like those nifty cushioned
athletic tracks our poverty-stricken Taxifornia schools all seem to have.
Or make them run thru an obstacle course of hay bales and gak pits, that
kind of thing.  Or make robotic single wheeled races, now that would be cool
as all hell.

spike




From moulton at moulton.com  Tue May 11 06:39:56 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:39:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk]  Divenire Breaking News!!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1273559996.5134.30845.camel@desktop-linux>

On Mon, 2010-05-10 at 22:20 +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> All articles and essays and bios are plain vanilla HTML, or PDF. Only the
> navigation pages are entirely Flash - not my choice, for that matter... :-)

I realize that having the front page using Flash for navigation is not
your choice however I suggest you tell whoever made the choice that it
was a mistake.  A big mistake.

Fred





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue May 11 09:44:19 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:44:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk]  Divenire Breaking News!!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEFWDBzMxuwaKzTl5XEgwZJdzE4wMm6PKogfLV@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimEFWDBzMxuwaKzTl5XEgwZJdzE4wMm6PKogfLV@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikMPvbYXd63ON7YBB7mETkEyt7dfd1OAKdCW4Oe@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 May 2010 23:24, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> After checking, you are correct!
> The HTML articles translate OK.
>
> Though some of the author pages give a 404 not found.
> Presumably they are still to be written.
>

Yes, all the links are there, but only the first two issue have been
uploaded. The third will be as soon as the fourth is in print, and the
fourth when the fifth will, etc.

Not too elegant perhaps.


> Now I just have to learn enough Italian to understand the navigation.  ;)
>

Why "autori" means "authors" and "n1, n2, n3" means "no.1, no.2, no.3".
That's more or less it. :-)


-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue May 11 12:39:40 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 08:39:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nature by Numbers
Message-ID: <AANLkTinqS0p-nMGGrwjNWctWBkipxrh4V_FLA1QEBlE9@mail.gmail.com>

Check out this *very* cool video:

http://etereaestudios.com/docs_html/nbyn_htm/intro.htm

Here's how FlowingData's Nathan Yau introduced it:

"I don't dream in numbers, but if I did, I'm pretty sure it'd look a lot
like this. In Nature by Numbers, a short movie by Cristobal Vila, inspired
by, well, numbers and nature, Vila animates the natural existence of
Fibonacci sequences, the golden ratio, and Delaunay triangulation. Watch it.
Even if you don't know what those three things are, the video will rock your
socks off."

-Dave
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue May 11 13:44:22 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:44:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk]  Divenire Breaking News!!
In-Reply-To: <1273559996.5134.30845.camel@desktop-linux>
References: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>
	<1273559996.5134.30845.camel@desktop-linux>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik-5a3UDFP4K-SEwgyh10WCR2THWm123xN4O7NJ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/11/10, Fred C. Moulton wrote:
> I realize that having the front page using Flash for navigation is not
>  your choice however I suggest you tell whoever made the choice that it
>  was a mistake.  A big mistake.
>
>

As one example, it means that iPad and iPhone users cannot access the site.

And it probably excludes users that don't run a modern computer with a
high-speed internet link. And some people block Flash anyway.

I have seen sites that offer a Button to bypass the Flash introduction.
But Divenire is desgned to use Flash for all the navigation.
So they would have to do a rebuild.  Not a quick fix.  :(

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 15:11:10 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 08:11:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nature by Numbers
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqS0p-nMGGrwjNWctWBkipxrh4V_FLA1QEBlE9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinqS0p-nMGGrwjNWctWBkipxrh4V_FLA1QEBlE9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D5ED73F474246599B87F908451746C9@spike>

 


	On Behalf Of Dave Sill
	Subject: [ExI] Nature by Numbers
	
	Check out this *very* cool video:

	http://etereaestudios.com/docs_html/nbyn_htm/intro.htm 

	Here's how FlowingData's Nathan Yau introduced it:

	"I don't dream in numbers, but if I did, I'm pretty sure it'd look a
lot like this..."



Thanks Dave!  Vila's work has been making huge waves in the math geek world.
Definitely wicked cool.

spike





From giulio at gmail.com  Tue May 11 15:54:09 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:54:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Reminder: David Orban on the Singularity University, Teleplace,
	later 	today
Message-ID: <AANLkTin6Xp_jmZigHxofbs7zAD3TnEZu6XVZH-E3TzN_@mail.gmail.com>

Reminder: David Orban, Chairman of Humanity+ and Advisor to the
Singularity University, will give the second teleXLR8 talk in
Teleplace today May 11, 2010, at 11pm continental EU (10pm UK, 2pm
PST, 5pm EST). David will present an overview of the Singularity
University, including program details and recent developments.

There are a few seats available for the online interactive event.
Please contact me by email if you wish to attend and don't have a
Teleplace account yet. If you have a Teleplace account valid for the
teleXLR8 host organization (ItalSAT), you can just show up.

G.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> David Orban on the Singularity University, Teleplace, May 11
> http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/05/david-orban-on-singularity-university.html
>
> David Orban, Chairman of Humanity+ and Advisor to the Singularity
> University, will give the second teleXLR8 talk in Teleplace on May 11,
> 2010, at 11pm continental EU (10pm UK, 2pm PST, 5pm EST). David will
> present an overview of the Singularity University, including program
> details and recent developments.
>
> Date and time: Tuesday May 11 at 23pm continental EU (22pm UK, 2pm PST, 5pm EST)
>
> Title: Presentation of the Singularity University
>
> Abstract: The Singularity University (SU) is an interdisciplinary
> university whose mission is to assemble, educate and inspire a cadre
> of leaders who strive to understand and facilitate the development of
> exponentially advancing technologies in order to address humanity?s
> grand challenges. With the support of a broad range of leaders in
> academia, business and government, SU hopes to stimulate
> groundbreaking, disruptive thinking and solutions aimed at solving
> some of the planet?s most pressing challenges. SU is based at the NASA
> Ames campus in Silicon Valley and offers two main types of programs:
> an annual 9-week Graduate Studies Program as well as 3- and 10-day
> Executive Programs throughout the year.
>
> Teleplace is one of the best 3D applications for telework, online
> meetings, group collaboration, and e-learning in a virtual 3D
> environment (v-learning). It is a powerful telepresence environment
> where multiple participants can stream their webcam video to
> interactive 3D online meeting areas and workspaces. The virtual 3D
> space permits effectively organizing the work areas and creates the
> impression of "being there", which is fundamental for effective remote
> collaboration. One of the main features of Teleplace is its ability to
> immediately import Office documents from the desktop for presentations
> and collaborative editing.
>
> The talk is sponsored by Teleplace and Italsat.
>
> There are a few seats available for the online interactive event,
> please contact me by email if you wish to attend, or request to join
> the teleXLR8 Facebook group. For those who cannot attend, the talk
> will be posted to telexlr8.blip.tv on May 12.
>



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue May 11 16:16:38 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:16:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 10 May 2010, spike wrote:

>  
> 
> > ...On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
> > ...
> > 
> > In one comment, there is a link to much better informed stuff:
> > 
> >
> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c1je9/polish_pop_star_faces_two_y
> ears_prison_for/c0pmkx5
> 
> Cool thanks Tomasz.

You're welcome.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doda_(singer)
> 
> I need to check out the music of this multi-talented artist, athlete,
> babe-alicious, brainy person and atheist.  Tomasz, since you share her
> language and homeland, do invite her to our gathering, and assure her we are
> already big fans.

Spider, you joker. She is a celeb, so my invitation is not going to reach 
her unless we met in person (hardly possible, by my own judgement). But, 
she is not quite my type so, since you want her here and you have already 
fallen (in love with her, of course), it is your job, right?

[...]
> prosecuted for that.  This case actually should help get those silly laws
> off the books, and prevent the Church of L.Ron from taking advantage of the
> law to harass and imprison its many enemies.

We do not have much hear about this church in Poland. But I think such 
tricks would not do them anything good. I mean, they don't want to make 
enemies here. We f*k our enemies. Such is our tradition, which we do hold 
in high regard.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue May 11 16:25:17 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:25:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Divenire Breaking News!!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik-5a3UDFP4K-SEwgyh10WCR2THWm123xN4O7NJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilne4YYRU8oZu7YhbZyldf-LfEVuPFzv6IGi62o@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimuay_y4DPTkBtwaYEawZvn3-rDodhisnx_sBQf@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins35_j6c32zPy4WAUUt7h5FdDBsT5VqBrpLzbR@mail.gmail.com>
	<1273559996.5134.30845.camel@desktop-linux>
	<AANLkTik-5a3UDFP4K-SEwgyh10WCR2THWm123xN4O7NJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinc6uEmIkzNzxVL-gJOSZPIv65brHAk9jtVFEfD@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 May 2010 15:44, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> As one example, it means that iPad and iPhone users cannot access the site.
>

Yes, and Ipad might make sense for reading long texts...

Let us say that in such case one should bookmark the summary of each issue
online - just two, for the time being, and navigate from there.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 17:18:12 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:18:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <374B61AD27DE481C89540C3E15D7CCE4@spike>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Tomasz Rola
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 9:17 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Cc: Tomasz Rola
> Subject: Re: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
> 
> On Mon, 10 May 2010, spike wrote:
> 
> >  
> > 
> > > ...On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
> > > ...
> > > 
> > > In one comment, there is a link to much better informed stuff:
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c1je9/polish_pop_star_faces
> > _two_y
> > ears_prison_for/c0pmkx5
> > 
> > Cool thanks Tomasz.
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doda_(singer)
> > 
> > I need to check out the music of this multi-talented 
> artist, athlete, 
> > babe-alicious, brainy person and atheist.  Tomasz, since 
> you share her 
> > language and homeland, do invite her to our gathering, and 
> assure her 
> > we are already big fans.
> 
> Spider, you joker. She is a celeb, so my invitation is not 
> going to reach her unless we met in person (hardly possible, 
> by my own judgement). But, she is not quite my type so, since 
> you want her here and you have already fallen (in love with 
> her, of course), it is your job, right?
> 
> [...]
> > prosecuted for that.  This case actually should help get 
> those silly 
> > laws off the books, and prevent the Church of L.Ron from taking 
> > advantage of the law to harass and imprison its many enemies.
> 
> We do not have much hear about this church in Poland. But I 
> think such tricks would not do them anything good. I mean, 
> they don't want to make enemies here. We f*k our enemies. 
> Such is our tradition, which we do hold in high regard.
> 
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola




From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 17:55:22 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:55:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
... 
> ...But, she is not quite my type so, since 
> you want her here and you have already fallen (in love with 
> her, of course), it is your job, right?

Right.  Actually I am more of a Nolan sisters fan, with or without the
caller ID feature.  I know their native language too.  {8^D  Doda is
definitely a gift however.  I am pleased that she is bringing attention to
the fact that we still have blasphemy laws on the books.

> [...]
> > prosecuted for that.  This case actually should help get 
> those silly 
> > laws off the books, and prevent the Church of L.Ron from taking 
> > advantage of the law to harass and imprison its many enemies.
> 
> We do not have much hear about this church in Poland....We f*k our
enemies. 
> Such is our tradition, which we do hold in high regard.
> 
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola

So I hear.  I read James Michener's excellent Poland.  The story that best
describes the Polish attitude is found in the chapter "From the South"
describing the seige of Vienna by tens of thousands of non-Presbyterian
Turks in 1683.  The Vienna leaders sent for help, but none was coming.  The
city was completely cut off.

The Vienna leaders decided surrender was not an option, ordered the starving
people to go ahead and eat their remaining food, to keep up their strength.
When it was gone, they lined up every able bodied person, including women,
children, the elderly, anyone who could physically carry even a pitchfork or
kitchen knife.  The order was given, they came pouring out of that city,
attacking in all directions at once.  The surprised and terrified Turks
scattered, leaving most of their seige engines and food behind.  Vienna was
saved by the attitude of its people.

That tells what kind of people the Poles are.

Tomasz have you read Michener's book?  Comments?

spike



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue May 11 18:48:00 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 13:48:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
Message-ID: <4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>

On 5/11/2010 12:55 PM, spike wrote:

> Vienna was
> saved by the attitude of its people.

> That tells what kind of people the Poles are.

This is rather baffling. Had the Austrians invited a large number of 
Poles over for a barbecue just before the Turks arrived? Or do you mean 
the Poles would have done the same thing had Turks invaded them instead 
in 1683 (by which I suspect you mean 1529)?

But I'm no historian, maybe I'm lost in all this geopolitics stuff.

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 19:19:28 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:19:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>

 
> On 5/11/2010 12:55 PM, spike wrote:
> 
> > Vienna was saved by the attitude of its people.
> 
> > That tells what kind of people the Poles are.
> 
> This is rather baffling. Had the Austrians invited a large 
> number of Poles over for a barbecue just before the Turks 
> arrived?...
> 
> But I'm no historian, maybe I'm lost in all this geopolitics stuff.
> 
> Damien Broderick

Perhaps Tomasz can clarify, but my interpretation is that the borders of
Poland fluctuated wildly over the centuries.  Certainly his historical novel
by that title discusses areas not currently associated with modern Poland.

spike 



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue May 11 19:21:49 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 20:21:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/11/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
>  This is rather baffling. Had the Austrians invited a large number of Poles
> over for a barbecue just before the Turks arrived? Or do you mean the Poles
> would have done the same thing had Turks invaded them instead in 1683 (by
> which I suspect you mean 1529)?
>
>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna>
The Polish army defeated the Turks laying seige to Vienna.

BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue May 11 19:39:26 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:39:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>

On 5/11/2010 2:21 PM, BillK wrote:

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna>
> The Polish army defeated the Turks laying seige to Vienna.

Yes, using an enormous cavalry charge etc--not at all the desperate 
activity of starving Viennese, which was presumably the event 150 years 
earlier:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue May 11 20:20:06 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:20:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/11/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
> On 5/11/2010 2:21 PM, BillK wrote:
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna>
> > The Polish army defeated the Turks laying seige to Vienna.
> >
>
>  Yes, using an enormous cavalry charge etc--not at all the desperate
> activity of starving Viennese, which was presumably the event 150 years
> earlier:
>
>


Well, yes it was, at least partly, I think.  :)

The siege 150 years earlier just petered out. The Turks ran out of
food, etc., got bored with it all and packed up and went home.

At the battle of Vienna, the mistake the Turks made was that they
split their forces in two. The Turks well knew that Vienna was on its
last legs and starving and they had prepared a final assault. So
rather than engaging the Polish army that had just arrived, the Turks
concentrated on a final attack on the city. The desperate Viennese
managed to hold off the Turks attack and when they saw the Polish
lancers sweep through the Turks, the Viennese charged out and attacked
the Turks from the rear.
So the Turks were fighting on two fronts and were defeated.


I think Spike's memory of Michener's dramatic novel just got a bit
confused about whether the Poles were inside or outside Vienna.  :)

BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue May 11 20:34:38 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:34:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] battle of Vienna
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>

On 5/11/2010 3:20 PM, BillK wrote:

> At the battle of Vienna...
> rather than engaging the Polish army that had just arrived, the Turks
> concentrated on a final attack on the city. The desperate Viennese
> managed to hold off the Turks attack and when they saw the Polish
> lancers sweep through the Turks, the Viennese charged out and attacked
> the Turks from the rear.

Ah, okay. That'll learn me to skim too fast.

> I think Spike's memory of Michener's dramatic novel just got a bit
> confused about whether the Poles were inside or outside Vienna.  :)

Looks that way. Still, it certainly puts me off invading Wien anytime 
soon. (Or Polska, either.)

Damien Broderick



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue May 11 20:49:50 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:49:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] battle of Vienna
In-Reply-To: <4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUNM-Ec2kw-KMvkEuAFgdNFxhOfIqdaXhVtB14@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/11/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
>  Looks that way. Still, it certainly puts me off invading Wien anytime soon.
> (Or Polska, either.)
>
>


One snippet of info I noticed was that Poland ceased to exist as an
independent country between 1772 and 1918. It was split into the
Austrian partition, Prussian partition and the Russian partition. (But
the people still thought of themselves as Polish in an occupied
country).


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 21:29:33 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:29:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com><AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com><4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <92D93D2042D74CD289529B89B9CDD66C@spike>

> > On 5/11/2010 2:21 PM, BillK wrote:
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna>
> > > The Polish army defeated the Turks laying seige to Vienna.
> > >
> >
> >  Yes, using an enormous cavalry charge etc--not at all the 
> desperate activity of starving Viennese, which was presumably the event
150 
> > years earlier...  Damien
> 
> Well, yes it was, at least partly, I think.  :)
> 
> The siege 150 years earlier just petered out. The Turks ran 
> out of food, etc., got bored with it all and packed up and went home.
> ...
>
> I think Spike's memory of Michener's dramatic novel just got 
> a bit confused about whether the Poles were inside or outside 
> Vienna.  :) BillK


Ja, entirely possible.  It has been about 15 years since I read the book, so
I mighta messed up the story entirely.  The only reason I remembered the
year 1683 was that I was doing family research at the time, and we think
1683 was the year one branch of my family came to America, a small group of
Ashkenazi Jews, possibly from Poland or somewhere in eastern Europe.  It is
hard to say for sure.  

Michener's version of the story makes it sound like that city was primarily
Christians.  They looked out at the beseiging forces and judged it to be
severely underrepresented in Quakers and Seventh-Day Adventists.  Even in
those less politically correct times, they did not wish to offend the
delicate religious sensibilities of the invaders.  However, they may have
judged their chances with surrendering to the Quaker-challenged attackers to
be less than optimal, and so decided to counter attack instead.  The counter
attack turned into an unexpected defeat for the Quakerless hordes, who chose
to withdraw as I recall, rather than mess with any more Poles.

spike





From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue May 11 20:32:22 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:32:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
Message-ID: <201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Perhaps Tomasz can clarify, but my interpretation is that the borders of
>Poland fluctuated wildly over the centuries.

Most of my family came from towns that changed country. My
grandmother, for instance, was born in what was Russia when
she was born and is Poland now. Adults spoke Yiddish and
the kids learned whatever the official language was at the time,
so they could translate for their parents.

Should a Wikipedia article refer to Gdansk or to Danzig?
The issue is common, messy, and volatile. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gdansk/Vote

(I think it's useful for extropians to be conscious of the fervid
ferocity that others bring to so many issues that we shrug over.
If only to restrain our own gush when discussing *our* passions
with them.)


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 11 22:02:06 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:02:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <92D93D2042D74CD289529B89B9CDD66C@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com><AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com><4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com><AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<92D93D2042D74CD289529B89B9CDD66C@spike>
Message-ID: <9B69ABAB32C445308A401C988626B33A@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of spike
...
> >
> > I think Spike's memory of Michener's dramatic novel just got a bit 
> > confused about whether the Poles were inside or outside Vienna.  :) 
> > BillK
> 
> Ja, entirely possible.  It has been about 15 years since I 
> read the book, so I mighta messed up the story entirely.  The 
> only reason I remembered the year 1683 was that I was doing 
> family research at the time, and we think
> 1683 was the year one branch of my family came to America... spike


Ooops that makes it sound like I was doing family history research in 1683.
I am not that damn old.  I was doing the research about fifteen years ago,
and read Michener's Poland at that time, found evidence for family members
coming to America in 1683, possibly while their brothers and cousins were
fighting the non-Quakers in Poland.  Do forgive the confusion.  {8^D

spike





From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue May 11 22:34:16 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:34:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
Vienna was saved by the attitude of its people.
That tells what kind of people the Poles are.
>>>
But as I recall, Poland has many times been crushed and partitioned by it's
stronger neighbors (so much for the theory of tough Poles, but then being
bullied long enough will make just about anyone get mean).  They did appear
to have a golden age, at least until the Swedes and Cossacks (I guess much
tougher foes than the Ottomans...) came along and burned down & looted the
country.  And Germany at one time seemed to have an itch every few
generations to invade poor Poland!

But the Poles now seem to have a successful handle on their economy and are
will known for their scientific and literary contributions to the world.
But militarily, they generally have not done so well.  There is a famous
picture of Polish mounted cavalry lancers (could have been straight out the
17th century) fighting Nazi panzer tanks.  What were they thinking? lol

I once came across a film (while perusing in a a video store) where the plot
had German young people breaking into a WW2 museum, putting on old military
uniforms, taking out for rides German tanks & half-tracks from the war, and
crossing the border into Poland.  The poor Polish countryfolk they encounter
think they are being invaded again!  I never actually saw the movie but
wonder how successful it was as a comedy.

John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue May 11 22:35:41 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:35:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] battle of Vienna
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUNM-Ec2kw-KMvkEuAFgdNFxhOfIqdaXhVtB14@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinUNM-Ec2kw-KMvkEuAFgdNFxhOfIqdaXhVtB14@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikYcAtsGz3IjYeIZp8eugxDrGBs83A79i_FK7SD@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote;
Looks that way. Still, it certainly puts me off invading Wien anytime soon.
(Or Polska, either.)
>>>

Damien, invade them with your fantastic literature!  It's the one thing
Poles just can't resist!

John  : )
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 12 03:26:40 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 05:26:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com> <73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005120255260.5990@tau.ceti.pl>

On Tue, 11 May 2010, John Grigg wrote:

> Spike wrote:
> Vienna was saved by the attitude of its people.
> That tells what kind of people the Poles are.
> >>>
> But as I recall, Poland has many times been crushed and partitioned by it's
> stronger neighbors (so much for the theory of tough Poles, but then being
> bullied long enough will make just about anyone get mean).  They did appear
> to have a golden age, at least until the Swedes and Cossacks (I guess much
> tougher foes than the Ottomans...) came along and burned down & looted the
> country. 

I (hopefully) will be able to say a bit on this later.

> And Germany at one time seemed to have an itch every few
> generations to invade poor Poland!

Actually, for most of the time, I believe we were on quite good terms with 
Germans. However, not good enough to convert ourselves into them. 
Sometimes, they were accepting this, sometimes, they were not - their bad.

Surprising number of Germans settled in Poland and became Poles. There 
sure had to be an opposite movement, too.

The whole conflict thing seems to be absurd.

> But the Poles now seem to have a successful handle on their economy and are
> will known for their scientific and literary contributions to the world.

Yes we do. Thanks for noticing. :-)

> But militarily, they generally have not done so well.  There is a famous
> picture of Polish mounted cavalry lancers (could have been straight out the
> 17th century) fighting Nazi panzer tanks.  What were they thinking? lol

This picture is biased and I don't believe it ever happened. How do you 
imagine a commander giving such a stupid order? Knowing for sure what will 
happen? How do you imagine a lower level officer accepting such an order 
rather than refusing to do it?

>From what I have heard about this, it was a nazi propaganda. It has 
a surprisingly long life. A good number of people is no longer able to 
say who the nazi were but still, they may say those nonsense things about 
us.

I can only agree with this: sometimes in a battlefield, one has to do 
something crazy to save lifes. Like breaking through the line of attacking 
tanks. Especially when one cannot pull back, because one is surrounded. 
But I wouldn't call this an attack.

About our "17th century old" cavalry: guess what, we had the best (at the 
time) anti tank rifle, that could kill actually every tank being in use 
then. And it had been used a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._35_anti-tank_rifle

We did not have many tanks (however, some of them were good enough for 
Germans, who captured them and either used or sold them to their allies).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-TP

We did not have enough planes, however they were good enough for France to 
consider buying their primary fighters from us in the beginning of 1930s. 
Alas, this did not happened. But we sold them to a number of other 
countries, even if not in big quantities.

We also had some achievements in the field of pairing up scientists, 
technicians/engineers and military experts. This seems to be perfected in 
US later on. Ok, we had just started doing this, maybe we were pioneers 
(or maybe Germans were, or maybe...). One such achievement was breaking 
of German Enigma cipher (including building electromechanical devices to 
help the task). Later during the war, Germans improved their Enigma and 
our methods were no longer suitable for it. British cryptologists took the 
lead (and did a hell of good work, AFAIK).

With regard to building more tanks, well, we had to develop them from the 
grounds up (almost) (we had a really big trouble with building a good 
engine to drive the beasts), and build us a modern industry as the country 
emerged from nonexistence after WWI. We had only 20 years for this and we 
did a remarkable job. Considering we had to fight "Soviet revolution going 
west" and live through Big Depression. Also, during WWI, practically the 
whole "what was to become Poland" had been a battlefield. Also, after 
partitions, we had three Polands that had to be unified (sounds easy, eh, 
but try it with different laws and economies). Unfortunately, we were not 
good enough to fight off Germans and Soviets singlehandedly in 1939 (we 
were singled because of cowardish tactics of our lazy alies, who 
probably lured us into opposing Germans). But if you can name anybody, who 
would have managed to do better, I am willing to hear it. Be verbose, if 
you please (I mean, don't forget to explain).

Of course you can point out that Soviets managed to build an army, however 
please consider what were their living conditions thanks to this. Also, 
their army at the time was a pitiful band of underexperienced novices 
(thanks to stalinist purges). And three months later they were unable to 
conquer Finland, which had about 5 milion population (ok, they almost did 
it, but with such costs that "almost" is hardly acceptable). They were 
able to go inside Poland because we chose to not fight them as they 
stabbed us in the back.

(To Russians reading this: I use the term "Soviets" consciously).

As of Germans, they also managed to do a lot (I am a silent admirer of 
their technical expertise), but at the same time they brought their 
country on the verge of economic catastrophe. They had to go to war, kind 
of. And from what I have heard, they stole not only from museums but 
actually whatever they could, including typewriters and bed furniture (I 
am not even going to mention cattle and horses). So they were in real 
need, it seems.

On the other hand, all we wanted was to have a good life in our own 
country. Not fighting our neighbours (unless they asked for it). So we 
were doing, in modern terms, a sustainable development, rather than 
agressive militarization. IMHO, we were doing all right. Among other 
things, we were planning permament TV broadcasting for 1940. Or maybe it 
was first half of 1940s, I'm not sure.

> I once came across a film (while perusing in a a video store) where the plot
> had German young people breaking into a WW2 museum, putting on old military
> uniforms, taking out for rides German tanks & half-tracks from the war, and
> crossing the border into Poland.  The poor Polish countryfolk they encounter
> think they are being invaded again!  I never actually saw the movie but
> wonder how successful it was as a comedy.

The youngsters have been very lucky. Just as one could expect from a 
comedy. The usual tactics of "folk" is treating tanks with Molotov 
cocktails. If they were stupid enough to display hakenkreuz, they deserved 
it anyway.

> John
> 

Regards
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 12 04:36:11 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:36:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005120255260.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike><201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com><AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005120255260.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <189AF07B596540AEA64D0099D573E520@spike>


... 
> > But the Poles now seem to have a successful handle on their economy 
> > and are will known for their scientific and literary 
> contributions to the world.
> 
> Yes we do. Thanks for noticing. :-)... Regards, Tomasz Rola

Tomasz, I wonder if it is commonly taught in Poland the extraordinary
contributions in the field of mathematics made by Poles and nearby eastern
Europeans in the critical decades of the 1920s and 1930s.  I read it *I
think* in Stanislaw Ulam's book, where he explained that in those years,
many of the world's top minds in mathematics were in Poland.  Specifically
the Polish Jews were making so many critical breakthroughs in algebraic
topology, ergodic theory and other fields, which would later contribute in
the making of the atomic bomb, in artillery, in signaling and coding, and
even in computer programming.

In Ulam's book somewhere, which I read a long time ago (so I might be
mistaken), he commented that so much of the real progress in mathematics in
those decades came from Polish Jews that it surprised them whenever someone
outside that exclusive circle made any major contribution.  My hazy memory
has it that they had a saying, or a jingle or a rhyme, in a Polish-ized
dialect of Yiddish, which roughly translates "The gentiles are said to have
discovered a theorem.  Indeed, the gentiles?  Is this true?"

I did get a laugh out of it, imagining my distant cousins saying something
like that. 

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 12 04:40:32 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:40:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com><73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <80712B9ADC1246728C86011D4AF57D34@spike>

Ja.  Out here in Taxifornia, we don't really know jack about the history of
Europe.  All Europeans are tossed in with the ever shrinking pool of white
people.  We are expected to know all about Mexico for some odd reason.  The
many different brands of Asians have their own intricate histories and
prejudices, which we white guys are completely unaware.  If I had a million
years to live, I might spend a few of them trying to master it all, but for
now it is much easier to just plead ignorance and not worry about it.

{8^D

spike 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> David Lubkin
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:32 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
> 
> Spike wrote:
> 
> >Perhaps Tomasz can clarify, but my interpretation is that 
> the borders 
> >of Poland fluctuated wildly over the centuries.
> 
> Most of my family came from towns that changed country. My 
> grandmother, for instance, was born in what was Russia when 
> she was born and is Poland now. Adults spoke Yiddish and the 
> kids learned whatever the official language was at the time, 
> so they could translate for their parents.
> 
> Should a Wikipedia article refer to Gdansk or to Danzig?
> The issue is common, messy, and volatile. See
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gdansk/Vote
> 
> (I think it's useful for extropians to be conscious of the 
> fervid ferocity that others bring to so many issues that we 
> shrug over.
> If only to restrain our own gush when discussing *our* 
> passions with them.)
> 
> 
> -- David.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 12 09:09:34 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 10:09:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Ants again! At Caltech.
Message-ID: <AANLkTimaAdKQW1LRW_HsQ1D6IpHisNtLxb0_NMdmQ8RU@mail.gmail.com>

I thought this might be of interest to LA folk.
(I'm looking at you, Spike!).

<http://www.skeptic.com/upcoming-lectures/adventures-among-ants/>

Adventures Among Ants:
A Global Safari with a Cast of Trillions

    * Event Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010 at 2:00 pm
    * Location: Baxter Lecture Hall
    * Speaker: Dr. Mark Moffett
    * Tickets: First come, first served at the door. Seating is
limited. $8 for Skeptics Society members and the JPL/Caltech
community, $10 for nonmembers. Your admission fee is a donation that
pays for our lecture expenses.

INTREPID INTERNATIONAL EXPLORER, biologist, and National Geographic
photographer Mark W. Moffett, ?the Indiana Jones of entomology,? takes
us around the globe on a strange and colorful journey in search of the
hidden world of ants. In tales from Nigeria, Indonesia, the Amazon,
Australia, California, and elsewhere, Moffett recounts his
entomological exploits and provides fascinating details on how ants
live and how they dominate their ecosystems through strikingly human
behaviors, yet at a different scale and a faster tempo. Moffett?s
spectacular close-up photographs shrink us down to size, so that we
can observe ants in familiar roles; warriors, builders, big-game
hunters, and slave owners. We find them creating marketplaces and
assembly lines and dealing with issues we think of as uniquely human ?
including hygiene, recycling, and warfare. VISIT
www.adventuresamongants.com. (Book signing to follow lecture.)



BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 12 13:37:34 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 06:37:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Ants again! At Caltech.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimaAdKQW1LRW_HsQ1D6IpHisNtLxb0_NMdmQ8RU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimaAdKQW1LRW_HsQ1D6IpHisNtLxb0_NMdmQ8RU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB7B210657FE4E9C8372EA3D7E0F3D1E@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of BillK
...
> Subject: [ExI] Ants again! At Caltech.
> 
> I thought this might be of interest to LA folk.
> (I'm looking at you, Spike!).
> 
> <http://www.skeptic.com/upcoming-lectures/adventures-among-ants/>
> 
> Adventures Among Ants:
> A Global Safari with a Cast of Trillions
> 
>     * Event Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010 at 2:00 pm
>     * Location: Baxter Lecture Hall
... 
> JPL/Caltech community, $10 for nonmembers...

Thanks BillK!  The CalTech lectures are always worthwhile.  I lived closer
25 yrs ago, so I was able to go down more often, back in the days when
Richard Feynman was still with us.

> INTREPID INTERNATIONAL EXPLORER, biologist, and National 
> Geographic photographer Mark W. Moffett, "the Indiana Jones 
> of entomology," takes us around the globe on a strange and 
> colorful journey in search of the hidden world of ants... BillK

One of the advantages of being an ant fan is that one need not travel to
study them.  Everywhere has ants, and they do cool stuff wherever they are.
I have set up an experiment using a hand held 1 gallon compressor that works
on 12 volt DC with a blower nozzle.  I have a shoebox with the ends cut out.
I can put the shoebox down over an ant trail and blow away a 15 cm section
of ants, then remove the box and measure how long it takes them to
re-establish the trail, under varying conditions.  

We are near peak ant season, so my son and I are having a lotta fun these
days.  At age 3, he is still too young to understand how weird this is.  I
need to act quickly to take advantage of his ignorance.

spike

 



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 12 14:39:06 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:39:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <80712B9ADC1246728C86011D4AF57D34@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com><73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<80712B9ADC1246728C86011D4AF57D34@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005121512250.24560@tau.ceti.pl>

On Tue, 11 May 2010, spike wrote:

> Ja.  Out here in Taxifornia, we don't really know jack about the history of
> Europe.  All Europeans are tossed in with the ever shrinking pool of white
> people.  We are expected to know all about Mexico for some odd reason.  The
> many different brands of Asians have their own intricate histories and
> prejudices, which we white guys are completely unaware.  If I had a million
> years to live, I might spend a few of them trying to master it all, but for
> now it is much easier to just plead ignorance and not worry about it.

Sure, those subjects are wide. But ignorance is lulling. It is also 
deceiving those who choose it.

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> > David Lubkin
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:32 PM
> > To: ExI chat list
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
> > 
> > Spike wrote:
> > 
> > >Perhaps Tomasz can clarify, but my interpretation is that 
> > the borders 
> > >of Poland fluctuated wildly over the centuries.
> > 
> > Most of my family came from towns that changed country. My 
> > grandmother, for instance, was born in what was Russia when 
> > she was born and is Poland now. Adults spoke Yiddish and the 
> > kids learned whatever the official language was at the time, 
> > so they could translate for their parents.
> > 
> > Should a Wikipedia article refer to Gdansk or to Danzig?
> > The issue is common, messy, and volatile. See
> > 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gdansk/Vote

Sometimes, IMHO, people debating this issue are forgetting about subtle 
details. The one I want to remember is this: for a very long time, Poland 
was really a multilingual, multicultural country. In our cities, for 
example, a big number of people spoke German. However, I doubt they 
considered themself to be Germans (as there was no Germany == Deutschland 
at the time, there was a big number of duchies, city-states, few kingdoms 
and one or two empires consisting of German-speaking people). When the 
time came, however, to choose "nationality", they chose to be Poles. Some 
of them chose otherwise, no problemo with this. This process took place 
some 150-200 years ago. So this not like saying that some or all of our 
cities should belong to Germany or something.

When it comes to Gdansk, for a long time it had been lying on the border 
between Poland (Kingdom of Poland, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth etc) and 
land belonging to Teutonic Knights (later known under the name of 
Prussia). It was an important hanseatic port, source of considerable 
income and we were fighting to keep it, so were the Teutons.

The Gdansk citizens themselves, seem to have been choosing sides as what
pleased them more. However, from what I have been taught in school, they 
more often choosed to be part of Poland than not. No surprise, there was 
quite a difference between Poland and Teutons - for example, I would not 
expect them to be tollerant to other religions, like Jews or Protestants, 
which we had here in great numbers. Teutonic Knights, mind you, was a 
religious order of christian chivarly. Later, when they converted into 
secular state of Prussia, they have also changed their faith into 
Protestantism. Still, I am not sure how they were dealing with other 
faiths.

Anyway, there were times when Gdansk called for Polish support against 
Teutons (and received it... or not, sometimes we were simply too busy 
with other enemies). At least once Gdansk was strongly pro-Polish, this 
was the place where we had built a fleet that fought victorious sea war 
with Suedes.

As Poland went weaker and weaker, so Gdansk went into being Danzig more 
and more. Not much surprise here. Finally, Poland was no more (for some 
time), so there was not much to choose from. No surprise, again. After the 
WWI, we would have been pleased to get Gdansk back, however it had been 
decided (by "powers") to make it into a city-state. So much for Hitler 
demands "that we give him Gdansk away" - we don't give what we don't have, 
right? For about twenty years, Gdansk/Danzig went on under dual name, with 
two official languages (Polish and German). The intention of all this, was 
probably to wait and see, who becomes stronger in the long run and to give 
the city to a winner. So both countries continued to display their 
influence (no surprise again).

In the meantime, we were in need of a real sea port (we had a 
coastline, but no big port on it, this is why Gdansk would have been 
welcomed so much). So we have built ourselves a city not very far away 
from Gdansk and it is a city of Gdynia. IMHO, this was a great move. 
Gdynia was able to prosper better thanks to the nearby well-developed 
city (there is also Sopot there, too, a touristic hotspot). At the same 
time, our position in Gdansk/Danzig Free City had been strenghtened.

As Hitler rose to power, so Gdansk leaned towards being Danzig again. I 
believe, the majority of people living there were of German origin, and 
since the nationality concept was well developed, they thought of 
themselves as Germans. Well, for over a hundred years they were living in 
Prussia, so not much surprise, twenty years of Free City would not erase 
it.

After WWII, Gdansk is Gdansk again. Nice way to sum this up, eh. A big 
number of Germans have been transported out of Poland and into Germany. I 
mean, those that have not been transferred deep into Soviet Union (they 
took civilians, too). I believe not all of them deserved such fate. This 
was not our decicion, more like it had been decided above our (and 
German's) heads. Actually, those who made it into Germany, probably 
considered themselves lucky. Even if today they may not remember about it. 
The "empty space" had been filled by people moved out from Polish eastern 
territory (our so called Kresy Wschodnie or in English, something like 
Eastern Edge) as it got to become part of Soviet Union.

Nowadays, all that is left from Gdansk' German past are historic 
buildings, old fotos and tales of people once living there. Perhaps I 
would have been able to accept it as Danzig but frankly, I feel much more 
comfortable thinking of it as Gdansk. Besides, there are not many ways to 
make it back. Not in a civilised world. I believe, in a civilisation as 
defined by so called "western standards" (which are derived from "latin 
standards"), there is no such way at all.

> > (I think it's useful for extropians to be conscious of the 
> > fervid ferocity that others bring to so many issues that we 
> > shrug over.
> > If only to restrain our own gush when discussing *our* 
> > passions with them.)

I don't think being conscious hurts. As marine soldier could have said it, 
pulling one's head from one's ass will not hurt more than the other way.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From painlord2k at libero.it  Wed May 12 17:29:53 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 19:29:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Vit. D 5000 IU?
In-Reply-To: <343818.63280.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <343818.63280.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BEAE591.8000808@libero.it>

Il 26/04/2010 15.12, Post Futurist ha scritto:
> Vitamin D is available in 5000 IU does. Is that dosage safe, or will
> it turn you into a frog, or something?

Vitamin D (colecalcioferol (spl?)) is available (in Italy) in vial of 
100.000 and 300.000 U.I (intramuscular / oral) (named DiBase), 5 vials/6 
euro.

Usually the effect on blood levels last 6-8 weeks (usually is 
recommended every 3 months), depend on the severity of the deficit and 
the pace of the metabolism.
The only way to know the effect is to measure the blood levels, as 
people is very different (age, skin color, metabolism, habits, other 
medications, etc.).

I take one vial (IM) every 2-3 months (I checked my level and was near 
the low limit). No collateral effects detected.

The most probable collateral effect is a hypercalcemy, but usually this 
is physiologic and not pathologic.

Mirco


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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 12 17:44:51 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 19:44:51 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <189AF07B596540AEA64D0099D573E520@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike><201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com><AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005120255260.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<189AF07B596540AEA64D0099D573E520@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005121733140.24560@tau.ceti.pl>

On Tue, 11 May 2010, spike wrote:

> 
> ... 
> > > But the Poles now seem to have a successful handle on their economy 
> > > and are will known for their scientific and literary 
> > contributions to the world.
> > 
> > Yes we do. Thanks for noticing. :-)... Regards, Tomasz Rola
> 
> Tomasz, I wonder if it is commonly taught in Poland the extraordinary
> contributions in the field of mathematics made by Poles and nearby eastern
> Europeans in the critical decades of the 1920s and 1930s.

Well, I feel there was a tendency in Poland (albeit I cannot tell how 
strong) to downplay our achievements and tout about whatever came from 
abroad (like, not only Soviet Union but US, Germany and so on). I now have 
a feeling this tendency has been reversed a bit, thanks to the internet 
it is easy to find information. However, one is still required to *want* 
to find them. I'm not sure how this is resolved in our schools nowadays, 
but I hope all is going ok. People of ages 30-50, however, well, they may 
lack this knowledge. But, whoever wants to learn, can find it. These 
things are mentioned quite a lot in tv and radio, so any curious mind will 
sooner or later get exposed.

Myself, I have for the first time heard about it while I was still 
attending school, which was about 20 years ago. I was amused how 
mathematicians gathered in a Scottish Cafe and wrote on a table tops. I 
was amused that they choose to go into a coffeehouse, amidst other people 
and discuss their things there. I think it got me somewhat directed into 
having ongoing fascination with maths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Caf??

>  I read it *I
> think* in Stanislaw Ulam's book, where he explained that in those years,
> many of the world's top minds in mathematics were in Poland.  Specifically
> the Polish Jews were making so many critical breakthroughs in algebraic
> topology, ergodic theory and other fields, which would later contribute in
> the making of the atomic bomb, in artillery, in signaling and coding, and
> even in computer programming.

Actually, I tend to think of them all as Poles. Whether they were Jews or 
not, or someone else, is sometimes dependent on their own personal claims 
and sometimes is more complicated. Consider Hugo Steinhaus, for example.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Steinhaus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Steinhaus

While he indeed seems to be born into Jewish family, and had to hide 
himself during WW2, he is buried on a Roman-Catholic cemetery, along with 
his (probably) wife. So, a Jew or not a Jew? I do not care. He was a Pole. 
Unless he himself stated otherwise, in which case, of course, his will is 
going to be respected.

http://cmentarze-polskie.pl/smetna/viewpage.php?page_id=25

As of our contributions, there were many of them and not only in 
mathematics. We had other scientists, too. And engineers. And sometimes, a 
mathematician could make some strange looking device:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=a7xcAAAAEBAJ

All of this stems from our Positivistic Movement, which started about 50 
years earlier. I guess you might find it interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism_in_Poland

I think we were quite close to building the first computer (as we have 
built devices to automate code breaking, we would have probably moved on 
with them). AFAIK, nobody actually had such an idea, but it could have 
happen as logical step forward as needs had been growing. Cryptography is 
a demanding beast.

Maths was the one requiring less resources than other sciences (well, a 
coffee cup, sugar cube, a pencil and a wall or a table top ;-) ). In a 
rather poor country that Poland was, this was an important issue.

It needs to be said, however, that our elites had excellent teachers, that 
were world's greatest minds of the time (like, in case of math, Hilbert 
and Klein, for example).

> In Ulam's book somewhere, which I read a long time ago (so I might be
> mistaken), he commented that so much of the real progress in mathematics in
> those decades came from Polish Jews that it surprised them whenever someone
> outside that exclusive circle made any major contribution.  My hazy memory
> has it that they had a saying, or a jingle or a rhyme, in a Polish-ized
> dialect of Yiddish, which roughly translates "The gentiles are said to have
> discovered a theorem.  Indeed, the gentiles?  Is this true?"
> 
> I did get a laugh out of it, imagining my distant cousins saying something
> like that. 

This sounds nicely, but a quick look at names gives another truth more 
compelling. Something along the lines "gentiles did all right, too" - at 
least in Poland. Did I say that we used to be a multicultural society?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw??w_School_of_Mathematics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak??w_School_of_Mathematics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_School_of_Mathematics

However, more than diminishing someone, I am more for including all 
winners in a simply "winners" cathegory. They were all great people. 
Unfortunately, during WW2 a lot of them have been killed (either by 
Nazis or by Soviets). The efforts of both sides seem to be somewhat 
coordinated, although I don't know if Soviets used any name for their 
wrongdoings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AB_Action
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Lviv_professors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union_(after_1939)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Contrary to the popular belief, Nazis had targetted not only Jews (they 
also killed politicians and scientiststs, but actually all elites, even 
athletes, and did exterminate a lot of so called ethnic Poles as well as 
so called ethnic Jews) and Soviets had targetted not only Poles (they also 
used to murder Jews, Ukrainians and people of other nationalities, because 
they were Polish officers or other important Polish figures).

Those who managed to survive the war, sometimes died from war related 
stress and poor living conditions not long after it.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From giulio at gmail.com  Wed May 12 18:06:05 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 20:06:05 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Video: David Orban on the Singularity University, Teleplace,
	yesterday
Message-ID: <AANLkTiko2bO5AEVENYPDu4cHOayXRT0qvLV9feC8CpgY@mail.gmail.com>

This was a great talk! I posted the full video of the talk and Q/A on
blip.tv. See:

http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/04/20/david-orban-on-the-singularity-university-teleplace-may-11/

http://telexlr8.blip.tv/file/3610332/ (Full video of the talk and Q/A)

http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/05/video-david-orban-on-singularity.html



On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Reminder: David Orban, Chairman of Humanity+ and Advisor to the
> Singularity University, will give the second teleXLR8 talk in
> Teleplace today May 11, 2010, at 11pm continental EU (10pm UK, 2pm
> PST, 5pm EST). David will present an overview of the Singularity
> University, including program details and recent developments.
>
> There are a few seats available for the online interactive event.
> Please contact me by email if you wish to attend and don't have a
> Teleplace account yet. If you have a Teleplace account valid for the
> teleXLR8 host organization (ItalSAT), you can just show up.
>
> G.
>
> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> David Orban on the Singularity University, Teleplace, May 11
>> http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/05/david-orban-on-singularity-university.html
>>
>> David Orban, Chairman of Humanity+ and Advisor to the Singularity
>> University, will give the second teleXLR8 talk in Teleplace on May 11,
>> 2010, at 11pm continental EU (10pm UK, 2pm PST, 5pm EST). David will
>> present an overview of the Singularity University, including program
>> details and recent developments.
>>
>> Date and time: Tuesday May 11 at 23pm continental EU (22pm UK, 2pm PST, 5pm EST)
>>
>> Title: Presentation of the Singularity University
>>
>> Abstract: The Singularity University (SU) is an interdisciplinary
>> university whose mission is to assemble, educate and inspire a cadre
>> of leaders who strive to understand and facilitate the development of
>> exponentially advancing technologies in order to address humanity?s
>> grand challenges. With the support of a broad range of leaders in
>> academia, business and government, SU hopes to stimulate
>> groundbreaking, disruptive thinking and solutions aimed at solving
>> some of the planet?s most pressing challenges. SU is based at the NASA
>> Ames campus in Silicon Valley and offers two main types of programs:
>> an annual 9-week Graduate Studies Program as well as 3- and 10-day
>> Executive Programs throughout the year.
>>
>> Teleplace is one of the best 3D applications for telework, online
>> meetings, group collaboration, and e-learning in a virtual 3D
>> environment (v-learning). It is a powerful telepresence environment
>> where multiple participants can stream their webcam video to
>> interactive 3D online meeting areas and workspaces. The virtual 3D
>> space permits effectively organizing the work areas and creates the
>> impression of "being there", which is fundamental for effective remote
>> collaboration. One of the main features of Teleplace is its ability to
>> immediately import Office documents from the desktop for presentations
>> and collaborative editing.
>>
>> The talk is sponsored by Teleplace and Italsat.
>>
>> There are a few seats available for the online interactive event,
>> please contact me by email if you wish to attend, or request to join
>> the teleXLR8 Facebook group. For those who cannot attend, the talk
>> will be posted to telexlr8.blip.tv on May 12.
>>
>



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 12 19:03:28 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 21:03:28 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] battle of Vienna
In-Reply-To: <4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122101570.24560@tau.ceti.pl>

On Tue, 11 May 2010, Damien Broderick wrote:

> Looks that way. Still, it certainly puts me off invading Wien anytime soon.
> (Or Polska, either.)
> 
> Damien Broderick

Why, a friendly invasion could have been a nice and refreshing experience.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed May 12 19:24:29 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:24:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] battle of Vienna
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122101570.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>	<4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122101570.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <4BEB006D.7090803@satx.rr.com>

On 5/12/2010 2:03 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:

>> >  Looks that way. Still, it certainly puts me off invading Wien anytime soon.
>> >  (Or Polska, either.)
   >> >  Damien Broderick

> Why, a friendly invasion could have been a nice and refreshing experience.

So far I think I've only invaded Poland twice (with translations of my 
books): CZARNY GRAAL (of which a vendor says:

Jest to powie?? wy?mienicie ??cz?ca w?tki charakterystyczne dla 
literatury fantasy i science fiction. Jest to opis walki w przysz?o?ci o 
uratowanie ludzkiej przysz?o?ci.. Xaraf Firebridge przebywa miliony lat, 
by znale?? si? w przysz?o?ci, w kt?rej Ziemia znajduje si? we w?adaniu 
istot manipuluj?cych czasem i przestrzeni? na podobie?stwo bog?w. Jednak 
kiedy?, w odleg?ej przesz?o?ci, istoty te pope?ni?y brzemienny w skutki 
b??d. Z Ziemi, coraz s?abiej o?wietlanej przez gasn?ce S?o?ce, Xaraf 
zostaje wys?any w przysz?o?? w ryzykownej misji maj?cej na celu 
utrzymanie w?a?ciwego biegu historii. Towarzyszy mu cudowny miecz 
Alamogordo oraz kobieta - wojownik Glade. Wsp?lnie poszukuj? 
legendarnego miasta Treet Hoown. Dochodzi do konfrontacji z 
niszczycielskimi mechanizmami stworzonymi przez dawno nie istniej?c? 
cywilizacj?..."

and PASIASTE DZIURY. I'd be delighted to do some more invading with 
other books, such as THE SPIKE. (But then Stanislaw Lem probably covered 
all the same ground decades ago in SUMMA TECHNOLOGIAE, which has never 
been compltely translated into English.)

I'll be invading Hungary soon with a translation of THE WHITE ABACUS, a 
1997 novel I'm quite pleased with...

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 12 19:31:46 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 20:31:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] battle of Vienna
In-Reply-To: <4BEB006D.7090803@satx.rr.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122101570.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
	<4BEB006D.7090803@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinaLHvRn_iS6BKFdEYnbe66LJpV4e8HUlU2aCth@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/12/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
>  So far I think I've only invaded Poland twice (with translations of my
> books): CZARNY GRAAL (of which a vendor says:
>
>  Jest to powie?? wy?mienicie ??cz?ca w?tki charakterystyczne dla literatury
> fantasy i science fiction. Jest to opis walki w przysz?o?ci o uratowanie
> ludzkiej przysz?o?ci.. Xaraf Firebridge przebywa miliony lat, by znale?? si?
> w przysz?o?ci, w kt?rej Ziemia znajduje si? we w?adaniu istot manipuluj?cych
> czasem i przestrzeni? na podobie?stwo bog?w. Jednak kiedy?, w odleg?ej
> przesz?o?ci, istoty te pope?ni?y brzemienny w skutki b??d. Z Ziemi, coraz
> s?abiej o?wietlanej przez gasn?ce S?o?ce, Xaraf zostaje wys?any w przysz?o??
> w ryzykownej misji maj?cej na celu utrzymanie w?a?ciwego biegu historii.
> Towarzyszy mu cudowny miecz Alamogordo oraz kobieta - wojownik Glade.
> Wsp?lnie poszukuj? legendarnego miasta Treet Hoown. Dochodzi do konfrontacji
> z niszczycielskimi mechanizmami stworzonymi przez dawno nie istniej?c?
> cywilizacj?..."
>
>  and PASIASTE DZIURY. I'd be delighted to do some more invading with other
> books, such as THE SPIKE. (But then Stanislaw Lem probably covered all the
> same ground decades ago in SUMMA TECHNOLOGIAE, which has never been
> compltely translated into English.)
>
>  I'll be invading Hungary soon with a translation of THE WHITE ABACUS, a
> 1997 novel I'm quite pleased with...
>
>


Damien, I think something's gone wrong with your spellchecker........


BillK    ;)



From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 12 19:44:57 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:44:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005121733140.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com><73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike><201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com><AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005120255260.5990@tau.ceti.pl><189AF07B596540AEA64D0099D573E520@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005121733140.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <95080CD62372456A9E3EF6CFD9D72B33@spike>

>...On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
> ...
> > jingle or a rhyme, in a Polish-ized dialect of Yiddish, which roughly 
> > translates "The gentiles are said to have discovered a theorem.  Indeed,
the gentiles?  Is this true?"
> > 
> 
> This sounds nicely, but a quick look at names gives another 
> truth more compelling. Something along the lines "gentiles 
> did all right, too" - at least in Poland...
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola

Hi Tomasz, 

The reason I mentioned the Jewish angle on this topic is something that *I
think* was in Ulam's autobiography Adventures of a Mathematician, or it
might have been in Marc Kac's Autobio Enigmas of Chance, or even another
good book I read at about that time, Mathematics and Logic.

In any case, whoever said it commented that the Jewish mathematicians from
Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Hungary and other Eastern European nations
wrote letters and worked together because they spoke Yiddish.  That is the
critical point: they had it going on because of a shared language that
transcended national borders and cultures.  I definitely get this whenever I
discuss my own favorite math topics with people from various parts of the
globe.  

The Yiddish language itself was not the magic ingredient that created the
environment for advancement in math, but rather the existence of a common
language that allowed the Jewish mathematicians who spoke it to join in a
symbiotic relationship with each other, or create a synergy that caused
results to explode forth like the flowers of spring.  Mathematics really
does this when a bunch of guys are talking and thinking together.

spike








From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 12 22:06:48 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 00:06:48 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Polish Vienna and other blasphemies :-) (was: two years
 in the slammer for blammisphy?)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com> <73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122236470.24560@tau.ceti.pl>


Ok, guys.

You tried hard to make pieces fit and you were very brave. But there is 
still some mess to be cleaned up.

:-).

Actually, I am not really sure how many people here got fed up with my 
emails. So this one time, I will try to make it short.

With regards to our borders, I've found some nice animations on youtube. 
You may turn off the music, I find it to be annoying a little.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhkCTdSh0KU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAVVWlUywO0

Also, this relatively short film gives quite good overview of our history. 
Good. I wondered if I should write it. Now I only have to paste a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quld5950v6w&feature=related

The music is again a bit pathetic, and so are some comments in the film. 
But overally, it is ok. Only I have the feeling, that communism started to 
fail because of Gorbatchev' perestroika rather than our Round Table. Other 
than this, the film pretty much says whatever I wanted to say, maybe even 
more. And even better, it's illustrated by pictures of many Polish 
painters. Just in case, maybe some people like this kind of stuff. Some of 
them are nice looking.

On Tue, 11 May 2010, John Grigg wrote:

> Spike wrote:
> Vienna was saved by the attitude of its people.
> That tells what kind of people the Poles are.

As much as we could like having it, Vienna belonged to the House of 
Habsburg. So, definitely out of our zone of control and too far from our 
borders for most of our history.

> >>>
> But as I recall, Poland has many times been crushed and partitioned by it's
> stronger neighbors (so much for the theory of tough Poles, but then being
> bullied long enough will make just about anyone get mean).

Actually, I see it differently. There was this problem with our enemies, 
they were wearing off too fast. This, how else, made us into thinking we 
were invincible. Think about it. In a typical battle of those times, like 
battle of Klushino

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Klushino

we had some 5000 hussars, and Russians about 35000-48000 men. We lost 
200-400, they lost 5000.

So we grew a lot of fat on us. In retrospection, it seems we grew fat on 
our brains, too. When the end finally came, there wasn't too many people 
interested in defending Poland. They were tough, however, when it came to 
accepting absolutist rulers. But you are right, the golden age had ended 
long before this.

>  They did appear
> to have a golden age, at least until the Swedes

Well, Swedes got what they came for, even if they didn't intended to be 
fed with it. They also got what we didn't wanted to give them and took it 
away, back to Sweden :-). But the whole war with them (and their numerous 
allies) was unnecessary and they weakened us a lot. Of course, finally, 
once again, we prevailed. But this time, I feel the price was high. The 
damage they did was so high that we called their invasion the Deluge.

> and Cossacks (I guess much
> tougher foes than the Ottomans...) came along and burned down & looted the
> country.

IMHO, Cossacks were very brave and formidable foe. It is a pity we could 
not agree with them (probably more our fault than theirs). They could have 
been valuable ally and in the long run, possibly great Poles too.

Ottomans, they had a big empire that was a bit crumbling under it's own 
weight. They were dangerous, but I think most of the time they were 
annoying. Those wars... They came, we crushed them. Ten years later, or 
fifty years later, they came again, we crushed them again. All of this at 
a great expense for us, even if greater for them.

I believe we had much bigger problem with Tatars. Especially that it was 
hard to engage them in a battle. But from time to time, we managed to 
catch them.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 12 22:07:56 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 23:07:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Maths Porn (New Edition)
Message-ID: <AANLkTik5TyZjHDY_LBMIlEsr4jx6Rac-amLofTmR3klJ@mail.gmail.com>

May 12, 2010

The National Institute of Standards and Technology has released the
Digital Library of Mathematical Functions (DLMF) and its printed
companion, the NIST Handbook of Mathematical Functions, the
much-anticipated successors to the agency's most widely cited
publication of all time. These reference works contain a comprehensive
set of tools useful for specialists who work with mathematical
modeling and computation.

<http://www.physorg.com/news192903240.html>

The DLMF, freely available on the Web, includes visual aids to provide
qualitative information on the behavior of mathematical functions,
including interactive tools for rotating and zooming in on
three-dimensional representations. These visualizations can be
explored with free browsers and plugins for PC, Mac and Linux systems.
It also provides references to or hints for the proofs of all
mathematical statements, offers advice on methods for computing
mathematical functions, and provides active links to available
software and references. With more than 8,000 equations and nearly 500
figures, the DLMF has about twice the amount of technical material of
the 1964 publication.

Get your fix here:

<http://dlmf.nist.gov/>


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 12 23:44:49 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:44:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Maths Porn (New Edition)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik5TyZjHDY_LBMIlEsr4jx6Rac-amLofTmR3klJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik5TyZjHDY_LBMIlEsr4jx6Rac-amLofTmR3klJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9FF913E5D7D54A54B0E9B7A632DD749A@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: [ExI] Maths Porn (New Edition)

> The National Institute of Standards and Technology has 
> released the Digital Library of Mathematical Functions (DLMF)...
<http://www.physorg.com/news192903240.html>
> 
> The DLMF, freely available on the Web, includes visual aids 
> to provide qualitative information on the behavior of 
> mathematical functions...
> 
> Get your fix here:
> 
> <http://dlmf.nist.gov/>
> 
> 
> BillK
>

Thanks BillK!  Definitely sexy as all hell.  Can you even imagine how much
fun Newton and the old time smart guys would have had, could they have lived
in our times?

spike



From moulton at moulton.com  Thu May 13 08:01:39 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (moulton at moulton.com)
Date: 13 May 2010 08:01:39 -0000
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
Message-ID: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com>


On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 21:40 -0700, spike wrote:
> Ja.  Out here in Taxifornia, we don't really know jack about the history of
> Europe.  All Europeans are tossed in with the ever shrinking pool of white
> people.  We are expected to know all about Mexico for some odd reason.

If anyone really wants to know about the California K-12 history
standards instead of some overblown rhetoric then read:
http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/histsocscistnd.pdf

Do a simple search for Europe and European and then compare that with a
similar search for Mexico and Mexican and compare the results.  And do
not forget that California was part of Mexico for two decades.

And on a contemporary note remember that there is lot of commerce
between California and Mexico; both imports and exports.

This is supposed to be a list for intelligent Extropians and thus I would
like to suggest that we avoid misleading rhetoric.

Fred



From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 13 13:56:30 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 06:56:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] european history: was two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com>
References: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com>
Message-ID: <219F72BB972D4C70BCCD81C2192E545C@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of moulton at moulton.com
...
> On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 21:40 -0700, spike wrote:
> > Ja.  Out here in Taxifornia, we don't really know jack about the 
> > history of Europe...
> 
> This is supposed to be a list for intelligent Extropians and 
> thus I would like to suggest that we avoid misleading rhetoric.
> 
> Fred

Fred, this was part of an offlist reply to an offlist comment that the
recipient inexplicably decided to post on ExI-chat.  I agree we know a
little about European history.  Tomasz' comments were an education.  I may
go back to an old standard I used for years: my offlist commentary was in
all lower case.

spike







From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu May 13 16:27:13 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:27:13 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] european history: was two years in the slammer for
 blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <219F72BB972D4C70BCCD81C2192E545C@spike>
References: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com>
	<219F72BB972D4C70BCCD81C2192E545C@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131821510.27217@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 13 May 2010, spike wrote:

>  
> 
> > ...On Behalf Of moulton at moulton.com
> ...
> > 
> > Fred
> 
> Fred, this was part of an offlist reply to an offlist comment that the
> recipient inexplicably decided to post on ExI-chat.

Oh my, did I do this? Oups... You know, I hit reply, yes, yes (some 
questions blablah) and here it goes, email with address fields filled and 
ready to be answered. Sorry, I was sure those were things from ExI.

>  Tomasz' comments were an education.

Wow, thanks. Look ma', I am an educatron! :-)

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From Frankmac at ripco.com  Thu May 13 16:59:50 2010
From: Frankmac at ripco.com (Frank McElligott)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:59:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] MAY 6
Message-ID: <002701caf2bd$b8378ef0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>

On may 6 from 2:40 to 3:00 eastern the Dow had a 900 drop followed by a 600 point rise.

Today is May 13 and still no one knows why it happened.

My bet it was a cyber attack from China, just a dry run for when things get heated up between east and west.

More important, If we can not know what these computers were doing, why wasn't the plug pulled at 2:45

Perfect example of the Forbin Project:)

Any thoughts

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From estropico at gmail.com  Thu May 13 17:17:49 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:17:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
Message-ID: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>

This is a real breakthrough for Italian transhumanism. For the first
time, in Italy, transhumanist topics are discussed in an academic
context in open collaboration with a transhumanist organization.

On the 11th of June, in Caserta, near Naples, a conference will take
place at the The San Leucio Belvedere Complex
(http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/549), organized by the Second
University of Naples (http://www.unina2.it/) in collaboration with the
Italian Transhumanist Network (or Network H+ www.transumanisti.org),
titled "Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man". The speakers
are heavy-weight Italian intellectuals who have published books that
touch on self-directed evolution, human enhancement, life-extension,
etc.

The organizer and "scientific coordinator" of the event is Giancarlo
(Giovanni) Stile, assistant professor at Second University of Naples
and one of the founding members of Network H+.

Here's a leaflet (Pdf) and the Facebook page of the event:
http://transumanisti.org/docs/invito%20convegno%2011%20giugno%20fronte%20retro.pdf
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=120934554602362

The program (the presentations *might* get translated to English at a
later stage):

Prof. Aldo Schiavone - Istituto Italiano di Scienze Umane, Florence and Naples
"Nature, Technology, History"

Prof. Edoardo Boncinelli - University "Vita-Salute San Raffaele" of Milan
"Biological Evolution and Cultural Evolution"

Prof. Lorenzo d?Avack - University of Rome 3
"The Power of Science Versus Human Rights"

Prof. Angelo Maria Petroni - University of Rome "La Sapienza"
"Liberalism, Biomedical Progress and Human Enhancement"

Cheers,
Fabio
www.estropico.org
www.transumanisti.org



From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 13 16:56:33 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:56:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] de-fonding memories in the pursuit of accuracy,
	was: european history: was two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131821510.27217@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com><219F72BB972D4C70BCCD81C2192E545C@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131821510.27217@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <D25AD0791CC24C57A20E1B5F8BA6FFEC@spike>

> > > ...On Behalf Of moulton at moulton.com
> > ...
> > > 
> > > Fred
> > 
> > Fred, this was part of an offlist reply to an offlist comment ...
> 
> Oh my, did I do this? Oups... 

No problem Tomasz, no harm done.  {8-]  The regulars here know I don't take
myself too seriously.  {8^D  You are a gift here bud.  I don't think we have
had poles here before, altho I might be mistaken on that.
 
> >  Tomasz' comments were an education.
> 
> Wow, thanks. Look ma', I am an educatron! :-)
> 
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola

And a good one you are, thanks.  Damien Broderick is my other highly
esteemed history professor, having had to explain to me a 1960s event known
as the Vietnam Conflict.  

I went back and found Michener's Poland, realized that I had in fact
conflated two very different events in Polish history.  

This brings up an interesting question, as I am currently writing a book
about my memories from my quarter of a century working at Lockheed.  After I
wrote a few of the stories, it occurred to me that I might be coloring the
memories: writing them as happier, funnier, less boring etc, than they
actually were at the time.  Perhaps some of the local psychology experts
here can comment.  As I understand it, we rewrite memories every time we
access them, and the memories are rewritten in accordance with our mood at
the time.  Being a generally cheerful sort, I tend to recall my past fondly,
even if it might have sucked at the time.  {8^D  I do not know how to inject
suck into my fond memories.  Would it be better to intentionally get myself
pissed off about something before I start writing?  How does one
intentionally get pissed off?  Would the fond memories overpower the
intentional irritation?

spike






From pharos at gmail.com  Thu May 13 17:40:40 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:40:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] de-fonding memories in the pursuit of accuracy,
	was: european history: was two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <D25AD0791CC24C57A20E1B5F8BA6FFEC@spike>
References: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com>
	<219F72BB972D4C70BCCD81C2192E545C@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131821510.27217@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D25AD0791CC24C57A20E1B5F8BA6FFEC@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin5oozzkNLzzyWjHtuDfAMd7G1E8RMO4gFLXaSF@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/13/10, spike wrote:
>  No problem Tomasz, no harm done.  {8-]  The regulars here know I don't take
>  myself too seriously.  {8^D  You are a gift here bud.  I don't think we have
>  had poles here before, altho I might be mistaken on that.
>
>


That reminds me of a story from wayyyyy back.

My father was manager in coal mine back when the UK still had a mining industry.

After WWII most mines still used wooden pit props to support the
tunnels. The new steel props were gradually coming in. There were many
Polish coal miners working in the UK mines at that time.  My father
nearly caused a walkout and shutdown of the mine when he was in an old
section of the mine. He kicked at one of the old wooden props, then
said 'These poles are no damn good!'. Unfortunately he was overheard
by a Polish coal miner and he had a lot of explaining to do to defuse
the situation.

Now explain the joke to Tamaz!


BillK


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May 13 18:15:46 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:15:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100513141546.mq2knkdhc0kg84cc@webmail.natasha.cc>

I apologize becasue my email was supposed to be private to Fabio and I  
was wrong because I was a private individual and not at that time  
representing the H+ Lab media arts organization.

Mia culpa.

Natasha





From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May 13 18:11:31 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:11:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>


Congratulations, but I am a bit confused.

I gave a talk on transhuanism at an Italian academic institution in  
2006 and was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in  
2008 to lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.

http://www.naba.it/newsletter_06_07/n3.html

http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=100&menuLeft=4&contentId=643

http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=318&menuLeft=99&contentId=911

Can we please discuss?  Only because the Italian academic instution  
that invited me to lectgure on transhumanism ought to be acknowledged  
for its hard efforts.

best,
Natasha



Quoting estropico <estropico at gmail.com>:

> This is a real breakthrough for Italian transhumanism. For the first
> time, in Italy, transhumanist topics are discussed in an academic
> context in open collaboration with a transhumanist organization.
>
> On the 11th of June, in Caserta, near Naples, a conference will take
> place at the The San Leucio Belvedere Complex
> (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/549), organized by the Second
> University of Naples (http://www.unina2.it/) in collaboration with the
> Italian Transhumanist Network (or Network H+ www.transumanisti.org),
> titled "Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man". The speakers
> are heavy-weight Italian intellectuals who have published books that
> touch on self-directed evolution, human enhancement, life-extension,
> etc.
>
> The organizer and "scientific coordinator" of the event is Giancarlo
> (Giovanni) Stile, assistant professor at Second University of Naples
> and one of the founding members of Network H+.
>
> Here's a leaflet (Pdf) and the Facebook page of the event:
> http://transumanisti.org/docs/invito%20convegno%2011%20giugno%20fronte%20retro.pdf
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=120934554602362
>
> The program (the presentations *might* get translated to English at a
> later stage):
>
> Prof. Aldo Schiavone - Istituto Italiano di Scienze Umane, Florence   
> and Naples
> "Nature, Technology, History"
>
> Prof. Edoardo Boncinelli - University "Vita-Salute San Raffaele" of Milan
> "Biological Evolution and Cultural Evolution"
>
> Prof. Lorenzo d'Avack - University of Rome 3
> "The Power of Science Versus Human Rights"
>
> Prof. Angelo Maria Petroni - University of Rome "La Sapienza"
> "Liberalism, Biomedical Progress and Human Enhancement"
>
> Cheers,
> Fabio
> www.estropico.org
> www.transumanisti.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 13 18:58:18 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:58:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <4BEC4BCA.4090400@satx.rr.com>

On 5/13/2010 1:11 PM, natasha at natasha.cc :

> was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in 2008 to
> lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.

I'm hoping this means that the lecture was conducted in an enormous 
marble hot tub sculpted by Michelangelo, with brightly sparkling 
bath-suds adorning the academic bodies...

Damien Broderick
[deputizing for spike for a moment]



From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May 13 19:21:01 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 15:21:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <4BEC4BCA.4090400@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4BEC4BCA.4090400@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20100513152101.2d8x21u60wkokwso@webmail.natasha.cc>

BINGO! You got it!  :-)

Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:

> On 5/13/2010 1:11 PM, natasha at natasha.cc :
>
>> was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in 2008 to
>> lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.
>
> I'm hoping this means that the lecture was conducted in an enormous
> marble hot tub sculpted by Michelangelo, with brightly sparkling
> bath-suds adorning the academic bodies...
>
> Damien Broderick
> [deputizing for spike for a moment]
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu May 13 19:41:24 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 21:41:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 May 2010 20:11,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> I gave a talk on transhuanism at an Italian academic institution in 2006 and
> was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in 2008 to
> lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.
> http://www.naba.it/newsletter_06_07/n3.html
> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=100&menuLeft=4&contentId=643
> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=318&menuLeft=99&contentId=911

Indeed, I gave myself a speech on transhumanism at the university of
Padua in 2008. Big deal.

But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
defamation and trolling, and even inviting as speakers a few
contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu May 13 20:03:44 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 16:03:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100513160344.rvawb7tx0kco8c0g@webmail.natasha.cc>


Yes I agree.  It is refreshing! Fabio's project is truely significant  
and deserves to be applauded and publicized as much as possible.

(Psst ... I think my "mia culpa" was an indication that even though my  
intention was to be supportive of NABA's coup, my post was admittedly  
ignorant, foolish and insensitive.)

Natasha





Quoting Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:

> On 13 May 2010 20:11,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>> I gave a talk on transhuanism at an Italian academic institution in 2006 and
>> was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in 2008 to
>> lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.
>> http://www.naba.it/newsletter_06_07/n3.html
>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=100&menuLeft=4&contentId=643
>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=318&menuLeft=99&contentId=911
>
> Indeed, I gave myself a speech on transhumanism at the university of
> Padua in 2008. Big deal.
>
> But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
> friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
> defamation and trolling, and even inviting as speakers a few
> contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>






From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 13 21:26:20 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:26:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] de-fonding memories in the pursuit of accuracy,
	was: european history: was two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin5oozzkNLzzyWjHtuDfAMd7G1E8RMO4gFLXaSF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com><219F72BB972D4C70BCCD81C2192E545C@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131821510.27217@tau.ceti.pl><D25AD0791CC24C57A20E1B5F8BA6FFEC@spike>
	<AANLkTin5oozzkNLzzyWjHtuDfAMd7G1E8RMO4gFLXaSF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <248184C9400B4E7FBD5EF69CAF5E9056@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of BillK
> ...
> My father was manager in coal mine back when the UK still had 
> a mining industry...He kicked 
> at one of the old wooden props, then said 'These poles are no 
> damn good!'. Unfortunately he was overheard by a Polish coal 
> miner and he had a lot of explaining to do to defuse the situation.
> 
> Now explain the joke to Tamaz! BillK

BillK, that is a perfect example of what I am talking about.  From this
perspective, the story is interesting and funny.  At the time, your father
was likely distressed and unhappy about it.

I was a feedback controls specialist at Lockheed.  Sooner or later, someone
will come up with some version of a tired old Nyquist gag: when on travel,
never let Stanislaw or Czcibor sit on the starboard side, make them go to
port.  Otherwise the aircraft will go unstable and crash, for you would have
poles in the right half of the plane.  If they insist on that side, get a
manager and an HR lead to sit beside them, so then you have pole/zero
cancellation and all is well.

If you don't get it, consider yourself normal.

{8^D

spike






From giancarlitobrigante at gmail.com  Thu May 13 21:31:41 2010
From: giancarlitobrigante at gmail.com (giancarlos)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 23:31:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com><20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7CE7B6FBDA3C445FB892CAC9A4D4A3C1@casac679d9543b>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefano Vaj" <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man

> But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
> friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
> defamation and trolling,

Actually, *this* is defamation.

> and even inviting as speakers a few
> contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...

"Even"?
Well, "contributors" is a big word, considering that Divenire just 
republished some articles and book chapters of two of the speakers, who on 
the contrary will personally attend the conference I'm organizing.
Let it be clear, collecting and reprinting interesting but already published 
articles and papers is certainly useful, but I doubt that you can call 
"contributors to Divenire" the respective authors.
That said, could you let me know who exactly are the "honorary AIT members" 
among the four speakers? Because I think that none of them are (or know to 
be) what you're saying.. But we could check it very soon :-)
Giancarlo 



From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 13 21:43:52 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:43:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] accidental posting of a private com: was RE: Self-directed
	Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <20100513160344.rvawb7tx0kco8c0g@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G@mail.gmail.com><20100513141131.ervvtxqp8gcgcg04@webmail.natasha.cc><AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100513160344.rvawb7tx0kco8c0g@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <51266B9AFC7543618B31E0CE6F2C8C6A@spike>

 
> ...On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc
...
> 
> (Psst ... I think my "mia culpa" was an indication that even 
> though my intention was to be supportive...  Natasha


Natasha, you are among friends here.  Most everyone on ExI-chat has at one
time or anther accidentally posted something to the list which was supposed
to be private.  Microsloth's accursed email feature automatically fills in
ExI-chat if I hit "e" in the address line.  I didn't see one thing in your
accidental post that would require explanation or apology, and even if it
had, one can usually tell when a private post was accidentally outed.  No
need to be hard on yourself.  {8-]

spike




From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu May 13 22:40:52 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 00:40:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <95080CD62372456A9E3EF6CFD9D72B33@spike>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com><73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike><201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com><AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005120255260.5990@tau.ceti.pl><189AF07B596540AEA64D0099D573E520@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005121733140.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
	<95080CD62372456A9E3EF6CFD9D72B33@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131843410.27217@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 12 May 2010, spike wrote:

> >...On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
> > ...
> > > jingle or a rhyme, in a Polish-ized dialect of Yiddish, which roughly 
> > > translates "The gentiles are said to have discovered a theorem.  Indeed,
> the gentiles?  Is this true?"
> > > 
> > 
> > This sounds nicely, but a quick look at names gives another 
> > truth more compelling. Something along the lines "gentiles 
> > did all right, too" - at least in Poland...
> > Regards,
> > Tomasz Rola
> 
> Hi Tomasz, 
> 
> The reason I mentioned the Jewish angle on this topic is something that *I
> think* was in Ulam's autobiography Adventures of a Mathematician, or it
> might have been in Marc Kac's Autobio Enigmas of Chance, or even another
> good book I read at about that time, Mathematics and Logic.

Ah, you have meant this. Hopefully, this time I've got you right, we will 
see. I really want to grab Ulam's book one day and read it. Alas, my 
interests not always give me enough time for everything. About two other 
books, I am not sure if I have heard. But titles are luring...

Overally, I consider people of Jewish ancestry to be quite bright. It 
struck me very early, how many of Jewish-looking names I have been meeting 
with during my books explorations. Names, like Teller, von Neumann, Erdos 
or Ulam. There are many more of them, but those have just fallen out of my 
head. They were truly great minds! Ok, actually I wasn't aware of their 
Jewish roots at first, but much later I started to learn more about them, 
their scientific careers etc.

> In any case, whoever said it commented that the Jewish mathematicians from
> Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Hungary and other Eastern European nations
> wrote letters and worked together because they spoke Yiddish.  That is the
> critical point: they had it going on because of a shared language that
> transcended national borders and cultures.  I definitely get this whenever I
> discuss my own favorite math topics with people from various parts of the
> globe.  

The idea looks very probable to me. Even though I never before have seen 
it from this particular angle. Well, it is probable, because before 1918, 
there were only three countries on those territories. And going through 
the borders was not a big problem (usually there is no problem with this, 
anyway, but getting passport is a different story). So, since Yiddish 
comes from Germanic languages and German was official language both in 
later Germany and Austria-Hungary, I guess it became a natural choice for 
Jews living there and next, by contacts, for those in Poland (and later, 
Russian Empire).

But I am a bit doubting about how much real work had been done by means of 
snail mails. My wild guestimate is, it would take about two days for a 
letter to go from Lvov (now Lviv) to Budapest (or Vienna). And this is 
still inside formerly one country (railways!). And it's an optimistic 
minimum.

Consider, for example, a work style of Paul Erdos. He used to knock a door 
of fellow mathematician, be his guest for some time (maybe a week, maybe a 
month, not sure), coauthor an article or two and move on, to another guy. 
So, even if he would have been able to make many mail exchanges with lots 
of people, he preferred a good old face to face contact instead. So it was 
in former times, I think. Mail was for general things.

So, work by mail, it was rather difficult and time consuming. Sure, on the 
other hand, long intervals promoted deeper thinking. Not like twitter and 
communicators, hehe. Besides, what the author meant might have been that 
they used to send to each other things like drafts of their books or 
articles. In this case, I think it was still quite a lot of work since 
they were not meant to be published in Yiddish, I think.

As of chatting in Yiddish with one's local coworkers, this was doable, 
provided one condition was met (more on this later). First of all, I 
believe majority of people living in middle Europe those days were at 
least bilingual. They had home language and they had official language of 
their country. I mean, before 1918. In Germany, this was different because 
they pushed hard their language on everybody they could (and they could do 
so, because minorities there were rather minor, compared to other 
countries I talk about). But in Russia or Austria-Hungary, it wasn't 
anything unusual to speak with people of very different languages in a 
span of one or two hours. Like, one wakes up, one says hello to mother 
(say, in Chech), one goes to buy a bread in a German-owned bakery, further 
on one goes to school with little Hungarian boy from the next door. Well, 
ok, I am making it a bit too colorfull, but reality wasn't homogenic, 
either.

Actually, people were not quite bilingual. They were "floating 
multilingual". They could talk to and be understood by other people living 
nearby - and this could mean three or four languages, too. This is how 
I've heard it from tales about good old days (the older they were, the 
better they were ;-) ) when people used to have, say, Ukrainians, 
Russians, Poles and Jews for their neighbours. Sometimes Romanians, or 
Germans or Hungarians for the fifth place. Might make a good place for a 
linguist...

Also, a so called educated man, was supposed to know at least basics of 
Latin. And some of them learned classical Greek, too. And if they went to 
study abroad, they learned whatever they had to, be it French or Russian 
or Dutch.

So, a Yiddish speaking student had in fact a lot of opportunities to learn 
other languages, too. However, since Yiddish in latin transliteration is 
surprisingly similar to German (not so much surprise, it's the same 
family) and I guess the same goes with its spoken form, so I suspect that 
people used German and Yiddish in reality. German was, for a lot of 
scientists of that time, a language of choice. This hypothesis has one 
advantage over "just Yiddish" one. It is, there was no, AFAIK, academic 
centre which used mainly Yiddish. And Yiddish speaking scientists were 
dispersed. So, even if there was enough of them locally to form such a 
group, there was a danger of them alienating themselves from their 
colleagues. Not good, since science is perhaps more about sharing the 
results than about having them.

But, as usually, I can be wrong. What I have written above is based on how 
I see this particular period of some geographic region. It is still 
possible that I might have misunderstood something. Or even all of it.

However, if I am right, then I really wonder why German has not been 
mentioned :-).

> The Yiddish language itself was not the magic ingredient that created the
> environment for advancement in math, but rather the existence of a common
> language that allowed the Jewish mathematicians who spoke it to join in a
> symbiotic relationship with each other, or create a synergy that caused
> results to explode forth like the flowers of spring.  Mathematics really
> does this when a bunch of guys are talking and thinking together.

Right, there are no magic languages. But one more possible use for Yiddish 
could be this. In the past, materials to be read (as required part of 
curriculum) could be in a few very different languages. Hundred years ago, 
these could have been German, French and English, for example. This was 
the case with mathematics. So, if one just started and had to quickly 
grasp what there was, it was much easier to form a group sharing common 
tongue, with people knowing other languages, who could read in foreign 
language and teach their mates in their own one. The shared language 
itself seems to be unimportant - other than all of them understood it.

Also, having idea explained in one's own language helps a lot when trying 
it in a foreign one. I have just tested it a few hours ago, as I peeked 
into a website hosting Polish mathematical monographies printed 50 years 
ago. The joke is, they were written in many languages, not only in Polish. 
There is, for example, "Topologie" in French by Kazimierz Kuratowski. As I 
have in the past had contact both with French and with topology (both were 
short, but interesting, but right now mostly forgotten) I had a look 
inside. Well, even though I have never learnt French mathematical 
language, I was able to understand that "ensembles" are "zbiory" (sets), 
"produit cart??sie" is "produkt kartezjanski" (Cartesian product) and so 
on, and so on. Obviously, some words are similar. At least I was able to 
understand titles.

This approach didn't work with "Gitterpunkte in mehrdimensionalen Kugeln", 
by Arnold Walfisz. I can only barely comprehend this has something to do 
with spheres. The moral is, don't read books in German before you learn 
German. But, if I knew Yiddish, the book would probably be mine :-).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu May 13 22:46:00 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 00:46:00 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] battle of Vienna
In-Reply-To: <4BEB006D.7090803@satx.rr.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilGPP6qp9-tz_8JXXpR2K0YxH1FVwLPvYu3buXX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9B26E.6060405@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilWyhUzmXvOSa81ycC3PwMls7kC-2ip2-qRqiRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BE9BF5E.7020304@satx.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122101570.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
	<4BEB006D.7090803@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005140041250.27217@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 12 May 2010, Damien Broderick wrote:

> On 5/12/2010 2:03 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> > > >  Looks that way. Still, it certainly puts me off invading Wien anytime
> > > >  soon.
> > > >  >> >  (Or Polska, either.)
> > > >     >> >  Damien Broderick
> > > >  
> > > >  > Why, a friendly invasion could have been a nice and refreshing
> > > >  experience.
> > > >  
> > > >  So far I think I've only invaded Poland twice (with translations of my 
> > > >  books): CZARNY GRAAL (of which a vendor says:
> > > >  
> > > >  and PASIASTE DZIURY.

Thanks for the pointers. I had no idea you have already invided us. Wasn't 
that bad, was it?

>  I'd be delighted to do some more invading with 
> > > >  other books, such as THE SPIKE. (But then Stanislaw Lem probably
> > > >  covered 
> > > >  all the same ground decades ago in SUMMA TECHNOLOGIAE, which has never 
> > > >  been compltely translated into English.)

While Lem did great job, I think you could try it anyway.

> > > >  I'll be invading Hungary soon with a translation of THE WHITE ABACUS, a 
> > > >  1997 novel I'm quite pleased with...
> > > >  
> > > >  Damien Broderick

Sure, keep invading!

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 13 23:27:41 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 16:27:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] languages and scientific advancement,
	was RE:  two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131843410.27217@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl><00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl><D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike><4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com><73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike><201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com><AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005120255260.5990@tau.ceti.pl><189AF07B596540AEA64D0099D573E520@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005121733140.24560@tau.ceti.pl><95080CD62372456A9E3EF6CFD9D72B33@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131843410.27217@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <7E8C865DD9DB4B30B740094AA5B004DD@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
...
> 
> Overally, I consider people of Jewish ancestry to be quite 
> bright. It struck me very early, how many of Jewish-looking 
> names I have been meeting with during my books explorations. 
> Names, like Teller, von Neumann, Erdos or Ulam...
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola


Tomasz, you posted a loooota good stuff here.  I wish I had more time to
reply, but family matters beg my immediate attention, as well as a
motorcycle/camping trip, so it will have to wait.

Regarding the above names, Feynman commented somewhere, possibly in his
"Surely You're Joking," about a discussion among the scientists that perhaps
Muslim nations would resent America for giving the atomic bomb to Israel.
But if one looked around at Los Alamos in the 1940s it wouldn't be too
inaccurate to argue that in a sense, Israel gave the atomic bomb to America.

In any case, I am interested in how memes travel at different rates in
different languages, and in different cultures.  Here on our own list, we
have marvelled at how transhumanism is wildly active in Italy, yet right
next door in France we hear almost nothing.  Much speculation, but no one
really could figure out why that happens.  The Italian tranhumanists seem to
have all these intricate subsets of transhumanism, and such interest in
tranhumanist activism, whereas here in the states, we all just kinda hang
out together, we don't really do a lot other than socialize.  We do not know
or care what particular brand of transhumanist the others are.  Why is it
that California seems to be such a hotbed of transhumanism?  But not so much
Florida?  Puzzling.

spike





From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu May 13 23:37:27 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 01:37:27 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] de-fonding memories in the pursuit of accuracy,
 was: european history: was two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <248184C9400B4E7FBD5EF69CAF5E9056@spike>
References: <20100513080139.55777.qmail@moulton.com><219F72BB972D4C70BCCD81C2192E545C@spike><Pine.LNX.4.64.1005131821510.27217@tau.ceti.pl><D25AD0791CC24C57A20E1B5F8BA6FFEC@spike>
	<AANLkTin5oozzkNLzzyWjHtuDfAMd7G1E8RMO4gFLXaSF@mail.gmail.com>
	<248184C9400B4E7FBD5EF69CAF5E9056@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005140118020.27217@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 13 May 2010, spike wrote:

>  
> > ...On Behalf Of BillK
> > ...
> > My father was manager in coal mine back when the UK still had 
> > a mining industry...He kicked 
> > at one of the old wooden props, then said 'These poles are no 
> > damn good!'. Unfortunately he was overheard by a Polish coal 
> > miner and he had a lot of explaining to do to defuse the situation.
> > 
> > Now explain the joke to Tamaz! BillK
> 
> BillK, that is a perfect example of what I am talking about.  From this
> perspective, the story is interesting and funny.  At the time, your father
> was likely distressed and unhappy about it.
> 
> I was a feedback controls specialist at Lockheed.  Sooner or later, someone
> will come up with some version of a tired old Nyquist gag: when on travel,
> never let Stanislaw or Czcibor sit on the starboard side, make them go to
> port.  Otherwise the aircraft will go unstable and crash, for you would have
> poles in the right half of the plane.  If they insist on that side, get a
> manager and an HR lead to sit beside them, so then you have pole/zero
> cancellation and all is well.

I think both jokes are cool (especially that I am relaxed and cool 
myself). The only "Polish joke" that made me feel uneasy (so far) was the 
one in which some media moghul (Ted Turner? Ted Bundy?) showed his leg in 
TV and said we (Poles) had been using it as mine detector during WW2. Or 
something equally stupid. He probably went unnoticed in US, but here in 
Poland he had his five minutes of bad publicity (I am sure a lot of 
people still remember this). He may be wealthy, but he made a nut of 
himself.

> If you don't get it, consider yourself normal.

So I am not quite normal...

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From moulton at moulton.com  Fri May 14 05:08:59 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (moulton at moulton.com)
Date: 14 May 2010 05:08:59 -0000
Subject: [ExI] european history: was two years in the slammer for
	blammisphy?
Message-ID: <20100514050859.27913.qmail@moulton.com>


On Thu, 2010-05-13 at 06:56 -0700, spike wrote:

> Fred, this was part of an offlist reply to an offlist comment that the
> recipient inexplicably decided to post on ExI-chat.
> 
You posted your comments publicly to the list.  I responded.  

Don't try to imply that my response somehow involved Tomasz or me or anyone else putting a private message out the list.

Fred


From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 14 06:30:25 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 23:30:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] don't do it! was: RE: european history: was two years in the
	slammer forblammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <20100514050859.27913.qmail@moulton.com>
References: <20100514050859.27913.qmail@moulton.com>
Message-ID: <9E2DCF29749345948834CC0DF40536C6@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of moulton at moulton.com
> Subject: Re: [ExI] european history: was two years in the 
> slammer forblammisphy?
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2010-05-13 at 06:56 -0700, spike wrote:
> 
> > Fred, this was part of an offlist reply to an offlist 
> comment that the 
> > recipient inexplicably decided to post on ExI-chat.
> > 
> You posted your comments publicly to the list.  I responded.  
> 
> Don't try to imply that my response somehow involved Tomasz 
> or me or anyone else putting a private message out the list.
> 
> Fred

I didn't say you, Fred.  I'm not even saying Tomasz did anything amiss.
What I meant was a previous comment was intended by me as an offlist, so I
was surprised to see it on the ExI-chat list.  I don't know for sure the
exact mechanism of how it got out there, but no matter.  I know you are
careful with reply protocol.  It is entirely possible I fat fingered it
somehow myself, or that I didn't notice ExI-chat was in the cc and I hit
reply all.  Tomasz, I don't know that you did anything wrong, I haven't
bothered to track the misstep.  It wasn't recipes for refining plutonium or
anything.  {8^D  

In any case, I always assume everything I post anywhere is as open as a
postcard.  Our email lists have people all over the world, many or most of
whom we never meet in the flesh.  Mistakes are sometimes made with replies.
If my entire sent mail folder were hacked and made public, there is nothing
in there that would cause me to lose sleep.  

Well, wait, let me think about that a minute.  OK, on the contrary, there is
a really cool algorithm for generating arbitrarily many digits of e that I
discussed with some math friends years ago.  Since a transcendental number
eventually generates every conceivable combination of bits, then if you let
a computer grind on it long enough, it is analogous to the proverbial
jillions of monkeys pecking at typewriters, and one of them eventually
theoretically produces the works of Shakespeare.  

By analogy, a computer generating e would eventually produce a string of
bits that matches any arbitrary length of Shakespearian works, or more
seriously, some modern copyrighted work, or still more seriously, a
pornographic photo, and would eventually even feloniously generate child
pornography, all by sheer chance over time.  Since there are infinitely many
different combinations of bits (we might suppose) which could be interpreted
as child pornography, then the algorithm that produces e theoretically
contains every possible vile image that can be imagined.  So I erased the
algorithm.  But still that didn't help, for one can easily imagine taking
the algorithm and running it thru a digital compression scheme.  Then take
the compressed file and compress again.  Repeat repeatedly, until one is
left with a single bit, either a 1 or a 0.  Reversing that process, the
single bit could theoretically be decompressed, repeating repeatedly, to
regenerate the e algorithm, which could then theoretically be run until it
randomly generates every vile evil thing ever imagined or imaginable.

So don't do it!  Don't let your computer sit and generate e.  Pi and phi are
just as bad, for all the same reasons.  By the same reasoning, either 1 or 0
is evil, or rather contains the potential for all evil.  We don't know which
one it is, the 1 or the 0, but one of them must be unspeakably evil.  I have
always had a vague suspicion about that 0, and I just can't say I really
trust the sneaky 1 either.  Watch them closely, those rascally 0s or 1s, and
don't try to decompress either of them a bunch of times.  you never know
what might pop out. 

spike


 



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri May 14 13:23:31 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 06:23:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 80, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <712406.4366.qm@web114416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Spike scarily wrote:

> there is
> a really cool algorithm for generating arbitrarily many
> digits of e 
...

> it is analogous to the
> proverbial
> jillions of monkeys pecking at typewriters, and one of them
> eventually
> theoretically produces the works of Shakespeare.? 
...
> one can
> easily imagine taking
> the algorithm and running it thru a digital compression
> scheme.? Then take
> the compressed file and compress again.? Repeat
> repeatedly, until one is
> left with a single bit, either a 1 or a 0.? Reversing
> that process, the
> single bit could theoretically be decompressed, repeating
> repeatedly, to
> regenerate the e algorithm, which could then theoretically
> be run until it
> randomly generates every vile evil thing ever imagined or
> imaginable.
> 
> So don't do it!? Don't let your computer sit and
> generate e.? Pi and phi are
> just as bad, for all the same reasons.? By the same
> reasoning, either 1 or 0
> is evil, or rather contains the potential for all
> evil.? We don't know which
> one it is, the 1 or the 0, but one of them must be
> unspeakably evil.? I have
> always had a vague suspicion about that 0, and I just can't
> say I really
> trust the sneaky 1 either.? Watch them closely, those
> rascally 0s or 1s, and
> don't try to decompress either of them a bunch of
> times.? you never know
> what might pop out. 

Spike, you've made me LOL and and also scared the becheezuz out of me!

I don't know whether to bust a gut laughing or quake in terror.
(It's really difficult to do both).

Ben Zaiboc


      




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri May 14 13:24:29 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 06:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <190497.96041.qm@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I'm a little intrigued by Tomasz's email sig:

** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **


It seems to me that either it should be "And then the computer became enlightened", or that englightenment = rage, rather than nirvana.

Ben Zaiboc


      



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri May 14 14:27:18 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:27:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <190497.96041.qm@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <190497.96041.qm@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141610050.13193@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 14 May 2010, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> I'm a little intrigued by Tomasz's email sig:
> 
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
> 
> 
> It seems to me that either it should be "And then the computer became 
> enlightened", or that englightenment = rage, rather than nirvana. 
> 
> Ben Zaiboc

I am mimicking some koan/zen stories. Those in which, say, master kicks a 
stone and a pupil becomes enlightened, or pupil wants to hit master with a 
stick and master defends himself with a pot in which case pupil is in 
tears and goes into enlightment. In zen, enlightment is important but 
nobody knows why until s/he becomes enlightened. If I understand the word 
"rage", it has or has not much to do with it. No good answer.

So, nothing intriguing here. Just a computer, Buddha, master and wondering 
C programmer. A computer is or is not enlightened simply by being a 
computer. Depending on how one sees it. A programmer, well, that's a 
different story.

I don't think I can explain it better. Sorry if I left you intrigued :-).

In case you are curious but too shy - I am not enlightened, I am just 
kicking stones to see what happens. Nothing zenish here. My leg hurts.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri May 14 14:18:50 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 07:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I wrote:

> I'm a little intrigued by Tomasz's email sig:
>
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
>
>
> It seems to me that either it should be "And then the computer became 
> enlightened", or that englightenment = rage, rather than nirvana.
>
> Ben Zaiboc

Oh, hang on, does "the programmer's home directory" refer to the programmer himself, not his computer?  Yes, it does, doesn't it.

OK, I am suitably enlightened (and, I admit it, a little slow).

Ben Zaiboc


      



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri May 14 14:56:43 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:56:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141648440.13193@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 14 May 2010, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
> > I'm a little intrigued by Tomasz's email sig:
> >
> > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
> > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
> > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
> >
> >
> > It seems to me that either it should be "And then the computer became 
> > enlightened", or that englightenment = rage, rather than nirvana.
> >
> > Ben Zaiboc
> 
> Oh, hang on, does "the programmer's home directory" refer to the 
> programmer himself, not his computer?  Yes, it does, doesn't it. 

Actually, on a UNIX-like OSes (or, on those that are multiuser by design), 
every user has his place in which he is supposed to do his job. That's 
called his home directory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_directory

"rm -rif" is a UNIX command. If you don't know what it does, don't try it. 
It can induce headaches worser than in katzenjammer.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri May 14 14:56:54 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:56:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org> 
	<916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinTgFSQvOOEoc4z4uxHKwgD4424CVOpwve0e66X@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> I'm a little intrigued by Tomasz's email sig:
>>
>> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ? ? ?**
>> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ? ?**
>> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ? ? ?**
>
> Oh, hang on, does "the programmer's home directory" refer to the programmer himself, not his computer? ?Yes, it does, doesn't it.

No, it refers to a directory on the computer where personal files are stored.

And shouldn't that be "rm -rf", without the "i"?

-Dave



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri May 14 15:01:35 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:01:35 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinTgFSQvOOEoc4z4uxHKwgD4424CVOpwve0e66X@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org> 
	<916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinTgFSQvOOEoc4z4uxHKwgD4424CVOpwve0e66X@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141659160.13193@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 14 May 2010, Dave Sill wrote:

> And shouldn't that be "rm -rf", without the "i"?
> 
> -Dave

I would say, all letters are important ;-)...

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From estropico at gmail.com  Fri May 14 16:04:09 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:04:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
Message-ID: <AANLkTikcedXuQ83czQTn6-RZpcd1cVLLPRYL4nl0WW0L@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Natasha, no problem at all! :-)

Cheers,
Fabio

> From: natasha at natasha.cc
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
>
> I apologize becasue my email was supposed to be private to Fabio and I
> was wrong because I was a private individual and not at that time
> representing the H+ Lab media arts organization.
>
> Mia culpa.
>
> Natasha


From scerir at libero.it  Fri May 14 17:19:18 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 19:19:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] R:  MAY 6
Message-ID: <3573640.224851273857558159.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Frank writes:
On may 6 from 2:40 to 3:00 eastern the Dow had a 900 drop followed by a 600 
point rise.
Today is May 13 and still no one knows why it happened.
 [...]

Try these:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64D42W20100514
http://tinyurl.com/3y36adc



From sparge at gmail.com  Fri May 14 17:30:44 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:30:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141659160.13193@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org> 
	<916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinTgFSQvOOEoc4z4uxHKwgD4424CVOpwve0e66X@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141659160.13193@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimolMRu8DblAC50qxbwwYOdgQCg7Pl89FYVWSAr@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 May 2010, Dave Sill wrote:
>
>> And shouldn't that be "rm -rf", without the "i"?
>
> I would say, all letters are important ;-)...

So you're saying the master didn't actually remove anything? Or are
you implying that master selectively removed files? Or...?

-Dave


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri May 14 17:49:02 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:49:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimolMRu8DblAC50qxbwwYOdgQCg7Pl89FYVWSAr@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTinTgFSQvOOEoc4z4uxHKwgD4424CVOpwve0e66X@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141659160.13193@tau.ceti.pl>
	<AANLkTimolMRu8DblAC50qxbwwYOdgQCg7Pl89FYVWSAr@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BED8D0E.5070207@satx.rr.com>

On 5/14/2010 12:30 PM, Dave Sill wrote:

>>> >>  And shouldn't that be "rm -rf", without the "i"?
>> >
>> >  I would say, all letters are important ;-)...
>
> So you're saying the master didn't actually remove anything? Or are
> you implying that master selectively removed files? Or...?

The master changed or removed nothing while adding the capacity to be 
(in Lilly's terms) metaprogrammed?

Damien Broderick


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri May 14 17:30:01 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] don't do it! was: RE: european history: was two years in
	the slammer forblammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <9E2DCF29749345948834CC0DF40536C6@spike>
Message-ID: <460069.7624.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 5/13/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> proverbial
> jillions of monkeys pecking at typewriters, and one of them
> eventually
> theoretically produces the works of Shakespeare.? 

Two problems with that:

1. It requires "infinite" monkeys or "infinite" time, neither
of which are actually available.  Even the universe has
existed for a finite - if large - time.  (This can be used to
illustrate the difference between "mind-bogglingly huge" and
"literally infinite".)

2. Even if one of them produced it, how would you find it
amongst the infinite amount of output?  The monkeys know not
what they made.  (And you'd have many more near-misses,
being a few characters to a few scenes off, than actual exact
copies.)

> Since
> there are infinitely many
> different combinations of bits (we might suppose) which
> could be interpreted
> as child pornography, then the algorithm that produces e
> theoretically
> contains every possible vile image that can be
> imagined.

This falls under problem 2 above.  An sequence of bits is
not child pornography until it is put in a context where
it can be recognized as such.  One could, in theory, use
an image of two 5 year olds going at it as a cryptographic
key - and so long as no one involved thought of that
sequence of bits as anything other than said key, it would
not arouse, titillate, or do the other things required to
fit the definition of "pornography".  (Of course, "no one"
includes the user of the key, thus requiring that the user
be unaware of the key's contents.  This also precludes
some third party giving the user this file to use as a
key, knowing what the file is when viewed as an image.)

> Then take
> the compressed file and compress again.? Repeat
> repeatedly, until one is
> left with a single bit, either a 1 or a 0.

If repeated compression was possible (it's no), why
stop there?  Compress once more.  Achieve the perfect
zen compression of no bytes.  :P

> By the same
> reasoning, either 1 or 0
> is evil, or rather contains the potential for all
> evil.? We don't know which
> one it is, the 1 or the 0, but one of them must be
> unspeakably evil.

Oh, they both are.  And 0 might or might not be the
lesser: if that's a signed number, 1 stands for -1.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri May 14 17:47:52 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:47:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141610050.13193@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <107331.35076.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 5/14/10, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 May 2010, Ben Zaiboc
> wrote:
> > I'm a little intrigued by Tomasz's email sig:
> > 
> > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's
> nature.? ? ? **
> > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the
> programmer's home? ? **
> > ** directory. And then the C programmer became
> enlightened...? ? ? **
> > 
> > 
> > It seems to me that either it should be "And then the
> computer became 
> > enlightened", or that englightenment = rage, rather
> than nirvana. 
> > 
> > Ben Zaiboc
> 
> I am mimicking some koan/zen stories. Those in which, say,
> master kicks a 
> stone and a pupil becomes enlightened, or pupil wants to
> hit master with a 
> stick and master defends himself with a pot in which case
> pupil is in 
> tears and goes into enlightment. In zen, enlightment is
> important but 
> nobody knows why until s/he becomes enlightened. If I
> understand the word 
> "rage", it has or has not much to do with it. No good
> answer.

The difference is, in the zen stories, there is a lesson to
be learned - which the master demonstrated without excessive
cost.  For instance, in the story you cite, the master could
be pointing out that one may be "armed" when surrounded by
objects that can be picked up, yet the student was insisting
that "armed" only counts if one has something the student
thinks of as a weapon.  (Or, as Jackie Chan has demonstrated
repeatedly: anything can be a weapon.)

In your example, there is no lesson, only destruction of
everything the programmer has done.  Though it could be
altered to include a lesson:

A programmer asked whether a computer had Buddha's nature.
The master replied, "You have spent all your time with us
on philosophy instead of working," and did "rm -rif" on
the programmer's home directory.  The programmer became
enlightened.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri May 14 18:21:48 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:21:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] don't do it!
In-Reply-To: <460069.7624.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <460069.7624.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BED94BC.6070008@satx.rr.com>

On 5/14/2010 12:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Even if one of them produced it, how would you find it
> amongst the infinite amount of output?  The monkeys know not
> what they made.  (And you'd have many more near-misses,
> being a few characters to a few scenes off, than actual exact
> copies.)

My story "Infinite Monkey" has the following monkey-generated passage:

<To be, or not to be, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the 
mind to suffer the springs und slartybartfast bitter mof ckaor kdmwic 
r7$nd. Pdustl lfQDNHP( xkcjkduro>

Damien Broderick
[Oh well, I thought it was funny...]


From estropico at gmail.com  Fri May 14 20:17:17 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 21:17:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed Evolution and
	the Future of Man
Message-ID: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com>

I sent a perfectly straightforward and on-topic message to the list,
only to be insulted and publicly defamed by somebody that wasn't
mentioned or even remotely hinted at in the message (please see below
for the two messages).

Is this sort of behaviour ok on extro-chat these days? I admit that I
don't read the list as much as I used to, and that I only drop by once
a month or so to post about the ExtroBritannia events, but surely this
is not acceptable behaviour...

Cheers,
Fabio


> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:17:49 +0100
> From: estropico <estropico at gmail.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> This is a real breakthrough for Italian transhumanism. For the first
> time, in Italy, transhumanist topics are discussed in an academic
> context in open collaboration with a transhumanist organization.
>
> On the 11th of June, in Caserta, near Naples, a conference will take
> place at the The San Leucio Belvedere Complex
> (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/549), organized by the Second
> University of Naples (http://www.unina2.it/) in collaboration with the
> Italian Transhumanist Network (or Network H+ www.transumanisti.org),
> titled "Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man". The speakers
> are heavy-weight Italian intellectuals who have published books that
> touch on self-directed evolution, human enhancement, life-extension,
> etc.
>
> The organizer and "scientific coordinator" of the event is Giancarlo
> (Giovanni) Stile, assistant professor at Second University of Naples
> and one of the founding members of Network H+.
>
> Here's a leaflet (Pdf) and the Facebook page of the event:
> http://transumanisti.org/docs/invito%20convegno%2011%20giugno%20fronte%20retro.pdf
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=120934554602362
>
> The program (the presentations *might* get translated to English at a
> later stage):
>
> Prof. Aldo Schiavone - Istituto Italiano di Scienze Umane, Florence and Naples
> "Nature, Technology, History"
>
> Prof. Edoardo Boncinelli - University "Vita-Salute San Raffaele" of Milan
> "Biological Evolution and Cultural Evolution"
>
> Prof. Lorenzo d?Avack - University of Rome 3
> "The Power of Science Versus Human Rights"
>
> Prof. Angelo Maria Petroni - University of Rome "La Sapienza"
> "Liberalism, Biomedical Progress and Human Enhancement"
>
> Cheers,
> Fabio
> www.estropico.org
> www.transumanisti.org

> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 21:41:24 +0200
> From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 13 May 2010 20:11, ?<natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>> I gave a talk on transhuanism at an Italian academic institution in 2006 and
>> was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in 2008 to
>> lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.
>> http://www.naba.it/newsletter_06_07/n3.html
>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=100&menuLeft=4&contentId=643
>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=318&menuLeft=99&contentId=911
>
> Indeed, I gave myself a speech on transhumanism at the university of
> Padua in 2008. Big deal.
>
> But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
> friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
> defamation and trolling, and even inviting as speakers a few
> contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri May 14 21:24:24 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:24:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed	Evolution
	and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>

Hi Fabio,

I'll let Max and Spike respond fro themselves, but it took me a few  
minutes to figure out precisely what you are referring to.  Correct me  
if I am wrong, but it seems that you are saying that the response to  
your post from Stefano in the following paragraph is defaming you:

Stefano wrote:

> But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
> friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
> defamation and trolling, and even inviting as speakers a few
> contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...

I took this to mean that it is refreshing to see you doing something  
positive, unlike others who are conspiracy-mongering and trolling. But  
now that I am reading it over again, I can interpret it differently to  
suggest that you are conspiracy-mongering and trolling.  If this is  
correct and Stefano is making this accusation, no it is not acceptable.

Max? Spike?

Natasha





Quoting estropico <estropico at gmail.com>:

> I sent a perfectly straightforward and on-topic message to the list,
> only to be insulted and publicly defamed by somebody that wasn't
> mentioned or even remotely hinted at in the message (please see below
> for the two messages).
>
> Is this sort of behaviour ok on extro-chat these days? I admit that I
> don't read the list as much as I used to, and that I only drop by once
> a month or so to post about the ExtroBritannia events, but surely this
> is not acceptable behaviour...
>
> Cheers,
> Fabio
>
>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:17:49 +0100
>> From: estropico <estropico at gmail.com>
>> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
>> Message-ID:
>> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> This is a real breakthrough for Italian transhumanism. For the first
>> time, in Italy, transhumanist topics are discussed in an academic
>> context in open collaboration with a transhumanist organization.
>>
>> On the 11th of June, in Caserta, near Naples, a conference will take
>> place at the The San Leucio Belvedere Complex
>> (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/549), organized by the Second
>> University of Naples (http://www.unina2.it/) in collaboration with the
>> Italian Transhumanist Network (or Network H+ www.transumanisti.org),
>> titled "Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man". The speakers
>> are heavy-weight Italian intellectuals who have published books that
>> touch on self-directed evolution, human enhancement, life-extension,
>> etc.
>>
>> The organizer and "scientific coordinator" of the event is Giancarlo
>> (Giovanni) Stile, assistant professor at Second University of Naples
>> and one of the founding members of Network H+.
>>
>> Here's a leaflet (Pdf) and the Facebook page of the event:
>> http://transumanisti.org/docs/invito%20convegno%2011%20giugno%20fronte%20retro.pdf
>> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=120934554602362
>>
>> The program (the presentations *might* get translated to English at a
>> later stage):
>>
>> Prof. Aldo Schiavone - Istituto Italiano di Scienze Umane, Florence  
>>  and Naples
>> "Nature, Technology, History"
>>
>> Prof. Edoardo Boncinelli - University "Vita-Salute San Raffaele" of Milan
>> "Biological Evolution and Cultural Evolution"
>>
>> Prof. Lorenzo d?Avack - University of Rome 3
>> "The Power of Science Versus Human Rights"
>>
>> Prof. Angelo Maria Petroni - University of Rome "La Sapienza"
>> "Liberalism, Biomedical Progress and Human Enhancement"
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Fabio
>> www.estropico.org
>> www.transumanisti.org
>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 21:41:24 +0200
>> From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
>> Message-ID:
>> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> On 13 May 2010 20:11, ?<natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>>> I gave a talk on transhuanism at an Italian academic institution   
>>> in 2006 and
>>> was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in 2008 to
>>> lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.
>>> http://www.naba.it/newsletter_06_07/n3.html
>>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=100&menuLeft=4&contentId=643
>>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=318&menuLeft=99&contentId=911
>>
>> Indeed, I gave myself a speech on transhumanism at the university of
>> Padua in 2008. Big deal.
>>
>> But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
>> friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
>> defamation and trolling, and even inviting as speakers a few
>> contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...
>>
>> --
>> Stefano Vaj
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>






From max at maxmore.com  Sat May 15 03:50:47 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 22:50:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Lasers still burning bright and tight
Message-ID: <201005150418.o4F4IAPG028831@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

As a child, I loved lasers. Good to know that the 50-year old 
technology is still advancing.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/05/14/2307335.aspx

Max



From giulio at gmail.com  Sat May 15 06:51:10 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 08:51:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed Evolution
	and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilTm4T2y3tSoOygFAAZO4g2iIlCdYcN7YtV2E42@mail.gmail.com>

Stefano may be referring to the endless flame wars between different
groups of Italian transhumanists, and the frequent personal attacks on
this and other lists.

I concede that in this case Fabio's message was, as he says, "a
perfectly straightforward and on-topic message to the list", without
useless polemics or personal attacks.

But I believe Fabio will concede that, in the past, it has not always
been so. And, reading through the list archives, it is evident which
of the two "camps" takes more frequently the initiative to attack the
other. As a matter of fact, Fabio's "camp" seems to have been more
frequently guilty of "initiation of violence". In particular
Giancarlo, whose recent and constructive initiative I can only praise,
had previously posted _only_ personal attacks against Stefano to this
list. This may have provoked Stefano's reaction in this case.

As I said, I welcome and praise Giancarlo's organization of the
workshop and look forward to seeing more and more constructive
contributions and initiatives from his side.

I wish to conclude by exhorting all Italian transhumanists to focus on
promoting transhumanism in their respective political and
philosophical circles, and try putting personal differences aside.
Thanks to the work of all, transhumanism is very frequently covered by
the media in our country, and often with surprisingly positive words.
There is, of course, still a lot of work to do to promote
transhumanism in Italy, and this is what we should do instead of
fighting each other.

G.

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:24 PM,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> Hi Fabio,
>
> I'll let Max and Spike respond fro themselves, but it took me a few minutes
> to figure out precisely what you are referring to. ?Correct me if I am
> wrong, but it seems that you are saying that the response to your post from
> Stefano in the following paragraph is defaming you:
>
> Stefano wrote:
>
>> But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
>> friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
>> defamation and trolling, and even inviting as speakers a few
>> contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...
>
> I took this to mean that it is refreshing to see you doing something
> positive, unlike others who are conspiracy-mongering and trolling. But now
> that I am reading it over again, I can interpret it differently to suggest
> that you are conspiracy-mongering and trolling. ?If this is correct and
> Stefano is making this accusation, no it is not acceptable.
>
> Max? Spike?
>
> Natasha
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting estropico <estropico at gmail.com>:
>
>> I sent a perfectly straightforward and on-topic message to the list,
>> only to be insulted and publicly defamed by somebody that wasn't
>> mentioned or even remotely hinted at in the message (please see below
>> for the two messages).
>>
>> Is this sort of behaviour ok on extro-chat these days? I admit that I
>> don't read the list as much as I used to, and that I only drop by once
>> a month or so to post about the ExtroBritannia events, but surely this
>> is not acceptable behaviour...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Fabio
>>
>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:17:49 +0100
>>> From: estropico <estropico at gmail.com>
>>> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> Subject: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
>>> Message-ID:
>>> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTimR30xuVFJaiclkkLRu-ABhTm5q6SamIP-feh6G at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>
>>> This is a real breakthrough for Italian transhumanism. For the first
>>> time, in Italy, transhumanist topics are discussed in an academic
>>> context in open collaboration with a transhumanist organization.
>>>
>>> On the 11th of June, in Caserta, near Naples, a conference will take
>>> place at the The San Leucio Belvedere Complex
>>> (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/549), organized by the Second
>>> University of Naples (http://www.unina2.it/) in collaboration with the
>>> Italian Transhumanist Network (or Network H+ www.transumanisti.org),
>>> titled "Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man". The speakers
>>> are heavy-weight Italian intellectuals who have published books that
>>> touch on self-directed evolution, human enhancement, life-extension,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> The organizer and "scientific coordinator" of the event is Giancarlo
>>> (Giovanni) Stile, assistant professor at Second University of Naples
>>> and one of the founding members of Network H+.
>>>
>>> Here's a leaflet (Pdf) and the Facebook page of the event:
>>>
>>> http://transumanisti.org/docs/invito%20convegno%2011%20giugno%20fronte%20retro.pdf
>>> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=120934554602362
>>>
>>> The program (the presentations *might* get translated to English at a
>>> later stage):
>>>
>>> Prof. Aldo Schiavone - Istituto Italiano di Scienze Umane, Florence ?and
>>> Naples
>>> "Nature, Technology, History"
>>>
>>> Prof. Edoardo Boncinelli - University "Vita-Salute San Raffaele" of Milan
>>> "Biological Evolution and Cultural Evolution"
>>>
>>> Prof. Lorenzo d?Avack - University of Rome 3
>>> "The Power of Science Versus Human Rights"
>>>
>>> Prof. Angelo Maria Petroni - University of Rome "La Sapienza"
>>> "Liberalism, Biomedical Progress and Human Enhancement"
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Fabio
>>> www.estropico.org
>>> www.transumanisti.org
>>
>>> Message: 11
>>> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 21:41:24 +0200
>>> From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-directed Evolution and the Future of Man
>>> Message-ID:
>>> ? ? ? ?<AANLkTikViZ_E6J3PyY8ZSksKcSdNIq3XQ820O6iPf8LI at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> On 13 May 2010 20:11, ?<natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I gave a talk on transhuanism at an Italian academic institution ?in
>>>> 2006 and
>>>> was a guest lecturer at another Italian academic instution in 2008 to
>>>> lecture to the sudy body specifically on transhumanism.
>>>> http://www.naba.it/newsletter_06_07/n3.html
>>>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=100&menuLeft=4&contentId=643
>>>> http://www.naba.it/page.php?menuId=318&menuLeft=99&contentId=911
>>>
>>> Indeed, I gave myself a speech on transhumanism at the university of
>>> Padua in 2008. Big deal.
>>>
>>> But let us not be too picky, it is refreshing to see Fabio and his
>>> friend engaging in something different from conspiracy-mongering,
>>> defamation and trolling, and even inviting as speakers a few
>>> contributors to "Divenire" and honorary AIT members...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stefano Vaj
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From estropico at gmail.com  Sat May 15 10:11:38 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 11:11:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed Evolution and
	the Future of Man
Message-ID: <AANLkTikqnpy5QvkpfoD96OUU6LnawO2aWiTvloxLEBsD@mail.gmail.com>

That's right, Natasha, Stefano clearly called me a conspiracy-monger,
a defamer and a troll. The fact that the insults came as part of a
back-handed compliment does not change their nature.

A little aside: It has been mentioned, by Giulio, that me and Stefano
have a lot history, including a couple of flames on this list. I'd
like to point out that (unlike Stefano) I have never *insulted* him,
not even in those heated exchanges, and neither have I *defamed* him.
All I have written about his involvement with a certain political side
has been documented and has not been disproven (I'd be happy to post
the links to the material, including mine *and* Stefano's articles on
IEET.org). Stefano might want to spin it another way and he's
obviously entitled to his opinion, but what I've written in the
articles or on any mailing lists cannot be described as defamation -
even Stefano the lawyer admits so: "always just short of what could be
prosecuted in Italy as criminal defamation" (see the comments here:
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/stile20100209/)

At any rate, that's history and none of it changes what happened in
this case, nor, I hope, gives Stefano the right to let fly at me at
will. All I want to find out with my "Question to the moderators", is
whether I am allowed to post to this list without being freely
insulted and defamed.

Cheers,
Fabio
PS: I read the list in digest mode, so apologies if I'm a bit behind
in the discussion. Also: I'll be offline for a week or so from Monday.
Apologies if I'll suddenly drop off the discussion - and I would be
grateful if Stefano could save any further insults until I'm back, on
the 26th of May...


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat May 15 10:24:02 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 03:24:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] MAY 6
In-Reply-To: <002701caf2bd$b8378ef0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
References: <002701caf2bd$b8378ef0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
Message-ID: <4BEE7642.5090306@mac.com>

Frank McElligott wrote:
> On may 6 from 2:40 to 3:00 eastern the Dow had a 900 drop followed by 
> a 600 point rise.
>  
> Today is May 13 and still no one knows why it happened.
>  
> My bet it was a cyber attack from China, just a dry run for when 
> things get heated up between east and west.
>  
> More important, If we can not know what these computers were doing, 
> why wasn't the plug pulled at 2:45
>  
> Perfect example of the Forbin Project:)
>  
> Any thoughts
>  

Naw, government wanted an excuse to have more control over the markets.  
So it invents scare market dive due to the market being too 
automated/efficient and grabs (sooner or later) more power to make the 
numbers look how they want them to look.    There was no proven computer 
glitch or human glitch magnified by computers AFAIK.  Just a lot of 
speculation mixed with calls (surprise, surprise) for more "regulation".

back to your normal more or less pleasant musings..

- samantha

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From giancarlitobrigante at gmail.com  Sat May 15 10:25:09 2010
From: giancarlitobrigante at gmail.com (giancarlos)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 12:25:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
	Evolutionand the Future of Man
References: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com><20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTilTm4T2y3tSoOygFAAZO4g2iIlCdYcN7YtV2E42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <118FA51362CD4EC788A91149207A566D@casac679d9543b>

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
> Evolutionand the Future of Man
>
>
> As I said, I welcome and praise Giancarlo's organization of the
> workshop and look forward to seeing more and more constructive
> contributions and initiatives from his side.

Thank you, Giulio. My aim is to set up a fruitful exchange between academic 
institutions and organized transhumanism in Italy, which I think is 
something substantially unexplored in our country.

> But I believe Fabio will concede that, in the past, it has not always
> been so. And, reading through the list archives, it is evident which
> of the two "camps" takes more frequently the initiative to attack the
> other. As a matter of fact, Fabio's "camp" seems to have been more
> frequently guilty of "initiation of violence". In particular
> Giancarlo, whose recent and constructive initiative I can only praise,
> had previously posted _only_ personal attacks against Stefano to this
> list.

I think you should entirely reasses your very 'personal' idea of what a 
"personal attack" is.

I (we) never attacked Stefano *personally*, on the contrary I (we) 
frequently and publicly recognized his intelligence, knowledge and 
shrewdness. What we did and will continue to do is to criticize his peculiar 
idea of transhumanism (sovrumanismo), tightly linked to a communitarist, 
hierarchical political view, where the individual is totally subdued to an 
elite, and the "masses" are "domesticated" by an "aristocracy" of the kind 
that emerged "after the Neolithic". And we usually support our claims 
providing links and even translations of relevant italian passages.

As you can easily recognize, these aren't personal attacks, but a (maybe 
sometimes harsh, but absolutely legitimate) criticism of Vaj's ideas and 
political view, in order to (try to) avoid the confusion, at least here in 
Italy, between transhumanism and Vaj's 'sovrumanismo' (confusion that became 
more likely to occur after Vaj undertook the role of AIT national 
secretary).

On the contrary, personal attacking is exactly the strategy of those who 
reply to these claims saying that the persons making the claims are "trolls, 
defamators or conspiracy-mongers". Not to mention the repeated public 
disclosures of private facts, which involved Fabio and me.

Description of Personal Attack 
(http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html)
<<A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks 
for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of 
"reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person 
making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is 
independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how 
repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.>>

> I wish to conclude by exhorting all Italian transhumanists to focus on
> promoting transhumanism in their respective political and
> philosophical circles, and try putting personal differences aside.

As a future of inter-communal conflicts, and intra-communal rigid caste 
division is not extactly the posthuman future we (the Italian Transhumanist 
Network) want, I'm afraid that your abstractly praiseworthy suggestion is 
quite difficult to put into action. But we can try.

Giancarlo





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat May 15 13:13:40 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 15:13:40 +0200
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed Evolution
	and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinIkg0Ph4hf1KGLaOLFASViWg0WRi7VWhkH0Fpf@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 May 2010 23:24, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

> I took this to mean that it is refreshing to see you doing something
> positive, unlike others who are conspiracy-mongering and trolling. But now
> that I am reading it over again, I can interpret it differently to suggest
> that you are conspiracy-mongering and trolling.  If this is correct and
> Stefano is making this accusation, no it is not acceptable.
>

The meaning of my rather bland reply to *your own* message was entirely
positive, meaning that even though the emphasis on the initiative concerned
may have been excessive or inaccurate as you suggested, for once we should
all praise an initiative taken by the individuals concerned, whose
"transhumanist" efforts in Italy in the past have been mostly concentrating
in casting aspersion on the Association of Italian Transhumanists and my
humble self.

The latter is not an "accusation", is a statement of fact, and I believe
that the details are well-known or easily accessible enough to subscribers
to this list, including in the archives thereof. But of course if somebody
is interested in knowing more of what I am referring to, I remain available
to supply a few references, nowadays including several examples in English.

Alas, the sensitivity shown by Fabio to such banal remark of mine, in the
framework of an attempt to "defend" his announcement against your criticism,
seems to show that his inclination to police-calling and witch-hunting is
far from resolved.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat May 15 13:45:45 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 15:45:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed Evolution
	and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikqnpy5QvkpfoD96OUU6LnawO2aWiTvloxLEBsD@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikqnpy5QvkpfoD96OUU6LnawO2aWiTvloxLEBsD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimM4bb2vF1bTGuHZpbKB6OYeaCq6h2-knWPBKbB@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 May 2010 12:11, estropico <estropico at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd
> like to point out that (unlike Stefano) I have never *insulted* him,
> not even in those heated exchanges, and neither have I *defamed* him.
> All I have written about his involvement with a certain political side
> has been documented and has not been disproven (I'd be happy to post
> the links to the material, including mine *and* Stefano's articles on
> IEET.org).

I realise that owing to the well-known and publicly admitted
connections (or "past") of Fabio and his friend in the Italian
political arena, he may not consider the insinuation that I am a
"neofascist infiltrator" as an insult.

Well, I do.

As I would if he discussed, in the undisputed exercise of his freedom
of speech, my possible being a child molester (another hypothesis
which has certainly never been "disproved" beyond any reasonable
doubt...).

But I have never dreamed of requesting the intervention of moderators
on any of the innumerable lists and forums where the couple of people
concerned have unrelentlessly repeated this mantra. This would stink
too much of the kind of intolerant, hyper-sensitive "conservatism"
that Fabio embodies, for my personal taste, which is unfortunately an
increasingly widespread mentality in my country and in its ruling
classes.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From scerir at libero.it  Sat May 15 14:19:12 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 16:19:12 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] R: Re: A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
 Evolution	and the Future of Man
Message-ID: <27466008.289441273933152361.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Stefano writes: 
 " [...] an initiative taken by the individuals concerned, whose 
"transhumanist" efforts in Italy in the past have been mostly concentrating in 
casting aspersion on the Association of Italian Transhumanists and my humble 
self."

To defend causes, either public or private, a bit of 'ars oratoria' is 
acceptable. But it seems to me a gross exaggeration that Fabio et al. mostly 
concentrated their efforts against AIT, in the past. 
s.






From sparge at gmail.com  Sat May 15 14:27:18 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 10:27:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] R: Re: A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
	Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <27466008.289441273933152361.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <27466008.289441273933152361.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikmxyLs3K_zyTlh7i7Oi2PnKA7_Ccz8HPYY3aMJ@mail.gmail.com>

As a fairly uninterested bystander, I'd just like to point out that
public squabbles like these tend to reflect poorly on the cause and
the participants. It doesn't really matter who's "right", both sides
end up covered in monkey feces.

Please, drop it or take it offline. You're not winning any support with this.

-Dave


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat May 15 14:28:57 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 16:28:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] R: Re: A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
	Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <27466008.289441273933152361.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <27466008.289441273933152361.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimiUVIjvqQ8xaYzU8JNXfbyXtlnEPIPmCBNi_HG@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 May 2010 16:19, scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:

> Stefano writes:
>  " [...] an initiative taken by the individuals concerned, whose
> "transhumanist" efforts in Italy in the past have been mostly concentrating
> in
> casting aspersion on the Association of Italian Transhumanists and my
> humble
> self."
>
> To defend causes, either public or private, a bit of 'ars oratoria' is
> acceptable. But it seems to me a gross exaggeration that Fabio et al.
> mostly
> concentrated their efforts against AIT, in the past.
>

I may have missed their other contributions to this list or any other
channels. I certainly am keen to read them... ;-)

For fairness' sake, it must however be said that Fabio, unlike his friend,
also inform us from time to time of Extrobritannia events and keeps a blog
that, besides commenting on the AIT on a more or less regular basis, also
translates in Italian a few tech-related news.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat May 15 14:54:53 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 16:54:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] R: Re: A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
	Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikmxyLs3K_zyTlh7i7Oi2PnKA7_Ccz8HPYY3aMJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27466008.289441273933152361.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<AANLkTikmxyLs3K_zyTlh7i7Oi2PnKA7_Ccz8HPYY3aMJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilF1cWW7-u27EUFOS_sQamsxs70DA22QbAHDZ4r@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 May 2010 16:27, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> As a fairly uninterested bystander, I'd just like to point out that
> public squabbles like these tend to reflect poorly on the cause and
> the participants. It doesn't really matter who's "right", both sides
> end up covered in monkey feces.
>
> Please, drop it or take it offline. You're not winning any support with this.

As far as I am concerned, I agree, accept, and sincerely regret to
have offered my two "nemeses" on a silver plate the opportunity, with
my well-intentioned remark, the pretext to relaunch their campaign.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat May 15 15:34:17 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 10:34:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
	Evolutionand the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinIkg0Ph4hf1KGLaOLFASViWg0WRi7VWhkH0Fpf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com><20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTinIkg0Ph4hf1KGLaOLFASViWg0WRi7VWhkH0Fpf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <426E822AE3C64E398D984BEBE7801E66@DFC68LF1>

Stefano wrote:
 
 " Alas, the sensitivity shown by Fabio to such banal remark of mine, in the
framework of an attempt to "defend" his announcement against your criticism,
seems to show that his inclination to police-calling and witch-hunting is
far from resolved. "
 
Hey, don't drag me into this argument.
 
I did not make a "criticism" about Fabio at all!  I made a "comment" about
NABA having promoted transhumanism by creating a lecture series several
years ago.  And I apologized because I thought what I did was tactless
because it was supposed to have been privately sent to Fabio to let him
know, and it having gone to the list, in my view rained on his parade.  I
still feel bad about this.  
 
Best,
Natasha 
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat May 15 16:22:43 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 09:22:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] R: Re: A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
	Evolution and the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikmxyLs3K_zyTlh7i7Oi2PnKA7_Ccz8HPYY3aMJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <967823.29963.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Sat, 5/15/10, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> As a fairly uninterested bystander,
> I'd just like to point out that
> public squabbles like these tend to reflect poorly on the
> cause and
> the participants. It doesn't really matter who's "right",
> both sides
> end up covered in monkey feces.
> 
> Please, drop it or take it offline. You're not winning any
> support with this.

Well said.  Regardless of the merits of either side, this
thread itself should be removed from the list ASAP, and
instead done as private replies to the moderators and
involved parties.

Please, can we have no one else reply to this thread on
the list?


From estropico at gmail.com  Sat May 15 19:43:55 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 20:43:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed Evolution and
	the Future of Man
Message-ID: <AANLkTim8r4NOvzB0W3Cy6FIsvJ4pWLK-zGD3cTXsgqe_@mail.gmail.com>

There have been calls for this thread to stop and I'm perfectly
willing to let it go. I'm even willing to let Stefano Vaj's latest
insinuations go unanswered, and believe you me, I could answer them -
don't get me started! :-)

However, to get back to what kicked off the whole thing, I remain very
curious to hear from the moderators whether it is ok to call another
member of this list a troll, a conspiracy monger and a defamer.

Cheers,
Fabio


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 15 20:18:32 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 20:18:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear fusion breakthrough...or not
Message-ID: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

The following piece of news is surprising....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8676678.st

It's probably all made up for the Great Leader's birthday, but having read Charles Stross' "The Execution Channel" a little part of me wouldn't mind if North Korea takes to the stars in fusion-powered Heim-field drive-propelled cities.

Tom


      



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat May 15 21:11:57 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 16:11:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear fusion breakthrough...or not
In-Reply-To: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BEF0E1D.7000708@satx.rr.com>

On 5/15/2010 3:18 PM, Tom Nowell wrote:
> The following piece of news is surprising....
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8676678.st

Not there. Check url?


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat May 15 21:18:09 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 17:18:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear fusion breakthrough...or not
In-Reply-To: <4BEF0E1D.7000708@satx.rr.com>
References: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4BEF0E1D.7000708@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <36636.12.77.169.30.1273958289.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

> On 5/15/2010 3:18 PM, Tom Nowell wrote:
>> The following piece of news is surprising....
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8676678.st
>
> Not there. Check url?

try
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8676678.stm

Regards,
MB



From nymphomation at gmail.com  Sat May 15 21:49:12 2010
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 23:49:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear fusion breakthrough...or not
In-Reply-To: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin1ZKH1AzJDpBJIFsOZjoyirLEGlKXMtDAkKZ3R@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 May 2010 22:18, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The following piece of news is surprising....
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8676678.st
>
> It's probably all made up for the Great Leader's birthday, but having read Charles Stross' "The Execution Channel" a little part of me wouldn't mind if North Korea takes to the stars in fusion-powered Heim-field drive-propelled cities.

I thought that was by Ken MacLeod, not Mr. Stross?

HTH

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat May 15 23:49:55 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 01:49:55 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <107331.35076.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <107331.35076.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005160131160.11384@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 14 May 2010, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> The difference is, in the zen stories, there is a lesson to
> be learned - which the master demonstrated without excessive
> cost.  For instance, in the story you cite, the master could
[...]
> In your example, there is no lesson, only destruction of
> everything the programmer has done.  Though it could be
> altered to include a lesson:

Yep. But this is cheap reproduction of a koan. Promotional free sample.

My feeling is, destruction is ubiquitous in koans. Or about half of them 
(the better half, of course).

But you are using logic too much. Lesson? What lesson? Two pounds of salt?

Or maybe, a koan is like me. Full of destruction and violence without 
purpose. And no lesson at all. If you want something deeper, definitely 
turn your attention to people with deeper thoughts.

;-)

> A programmer asked whether a computer had Buddha's nature.
> The master replied, "You have spent all your time with us
> on philosophy instead of working," and did "rm -rif" on
> the programmer's home directory.  The programmer became
> enlightened.

Nice, you've just made a new version of the story. I think there is a lot 
of possible versions, including R-rated one. But in this case, I don't 
want to know what master did to a programmer, or wheter them both 
humiliated Buddha and how.

:-).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat May 15 23:59:50 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 01:59:50 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment
In-Reply-To: <4BED8D0E.5070207@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1273838402.21865.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<916225.24230.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinTgFSQvOOEoc4z4uxHKwgD4424CVOpwve0e66X@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005141659160.13193@tau.ceti.pl>
	<AANLkTimolMRu8DblAC50qxbwwYOdgQCg7Pl89FYVWSAr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BED8D0E.5070207@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005160150140.11384@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 14 May 2010, Damien Broderick wrote:

> On 5/14/2010 12:30 PM, Dave Sill wrote:
> 
> > > > > >  And shouldn't that be "rm -rf", without the "i"?
> > > >
> > > >  I would say, all letters are important ;-)...
> >
> > So you're saying the master didn't actually remove anything? Or are
> > you implying that master selectively removed files? Or...?
> 
> The master changed or removed nothing while adding the capacity to be (in
> Lilly's terms) metaprogrammed?

Actually, the whole story takes place on another planet, very much like 
our Earth, somewhere in the Universe. They do not have Richard Stallman 
there (well, he is unique apparently), so no GNU either. But they have 
their own version of UNIX. Unfortunately, rm has been written by an intern 
during summer holidays. So, unlike GNU rm, one can give "i" and "f" 
options to it and they both have effect at the same time ("f" does not 
cancel "i").

Folks, it's a joke in my own special way. If I explain too much, the fun 
is gone.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From max at maxmore.com  Sun May 16 00:37:06 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:37:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] META: Moderation notice (was: Re: R: Re: A question to the
 moderators)
Message-ID: <201005160037.o4G0brei022946@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

As List Moderator, I have read the recent posts on this topic, and 
have the following to say:

Fabio asked:

>However, to get back to what kicked off the whole thing, I remain 
>very curious to hear from the moderators whether it is ok to call 
>another member of this list a troll, a conspiracy monger and a defamer.

And added:

>I sent a perfectly straightforward and on-topic message to the list, 
>only to be insulted and publicly defamed by somebody that wasn't 
>mentioned or even remotely hinted at in the message (please see 
>below for the two messages).

I can see circumstances under which name calling of this sort on this 
list to someone might be acceptable. But in this case, these slurs 
made to you in this context, clearly are inappropriate.

Stefano said:

>  Alas, the sensitivity shown by Fabio to such banal remark of mine, 
> in the framework of an attempt to "defend" his announcement against 
> your criticism, seems to show that his inclination to 
> police-calling and witch-hunting is far from resolved.

I don't think those slurs were "banal" or trivial nor that Fabio was 
being unreasonably sensitive.

Stefano also said:

>I realise that owing to the well-known and publicly admitted 
>connections (or "past") of Fabio and his friend in the Italian 
>political arena, he may not consider the insinuation that I am a 
>"neofascist infiltrator" as an insult.

Fabio did not do that during this exchange on this list. Correct me 
if I missed it. Such a remark on this list would also, very likely, 
be inappropriate.

STEFANO: I think you should acknowledge that your comments were 
inappropriate here at this time.

I understand that there is quite a high degree of mutual dislike 
among some of you transhumanists of Italian origin. I've tried to 
read some of the accusatory material on both sides, but couldn't 
bring myself to keep at it long enough to determine whether anyone 
was being reasonable or correct. You can continue to argue with each 
other about fascism and purportedly unsavory associations elsewhere, 
but please let those discussions off this list.

FABIO AND STEFANO:

As Moderator, I am asking you (and everyone else) to refrain from 
further posts on this matter. By "this matter" I mean the issue of 
insults/slurs, not discussion of the actual substance of Fabio's post 
on activity in academic Italian transhumanism. ANYONE CONTINUING TO 
DISCUSS THIS MATTER IS SUBJECT TO A TWO-WEEK SUSPENSION FROM THE 
EXTROPY-CHAT LIST.

Thank you,

Max


-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From estropico at gmail.com  Sun May 16 14:51:51 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:51:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] META: Moderation notice (was: Re: R: Re: A question to the
	moderators)
Message-ID: <AANLkTilN2s5126sT5aAX1OpVBynKJr9Wh-Scws6KDk0d@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for your intervention, Max.

One last thing if I may...

This is your list and I will accept whatever you decide on this, but
I'm wondering whether a *blanket* ban on this specific topic (i.e.
whether or not a branch of Italian transhumanism has connections with
neofascism) is the most suitable approach. I completely understand
your desire to avoid any further flames, but those that occurred in
the past were mainly caused by the use of name-calling in place of
reasoned debate. Your strong clarification of where the boundaries of
acceptable behaviour lie should help a lot in preventing a repeat of
that (especially if coupled with robust and pront moderation).

Finally, while I agree completely that there isn't much point going
over the same old arguments again and again, I think it would make
sense to allow the discussion (or at the very least the mention) of
any significant new developements that might occur. I'm thinking of
something of the magnitude of Charlie Stross' article on the topic, or
the publication of Stefano's and the Network H+'s articles on
IEET.org.

Thank you again and all the best.
Fabio
PS: now I've got a car to pack and I'll be off on holidays tomorrow at
dawn. Please note that I will be mercifully off-line until the 26th of
May (it's good for the soul, sometimes...)


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun May 16 22:10:35 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:10:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] shamefree self promo
Message-ID: <4BF06D5B.4070805@satx.rr.com>

A free story online at SUBTERRANEAN:

<http://subterraneanpress.com/index.php/magazine/spring-2010/fiction-under-the-moons-of-venus-by-damien-broderick/>

Spike helped me with some of the orbital calcs in this story... (but 
don't expect a nuts&bolts ANALOG-style sf story--at least one of the 
people in this story is mad as a hatter, maybe more, to say nothing of 
the dog...).

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 02:19:49 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:19:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS: Self-directed
	Evolutionand the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilTm4T2y3tSoOygFAAZO4g2iIlCdYcN7YtV2E42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com><20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTilTm4T2y3tSoOygFAAZO4g2iIlCdYcN7YtV2E42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1456A7CC4BA4E7691F72F642A0D63B9@spike>


> ...
> On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:24 PM,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>  Hi Fabio,
>
>  I'll let Max and Spike respond fro themselves, but it took me a few 
>  minutes to figure out precisely what you are referring to...
> ?If this is  correct and Stefano is making this accusation, no it is not 
> acceptable.
> 
> Max? Spike?
> 
>  Natasha

I do confess I am most puzzled by all this.

Natasha accidentally posted to the main list something that she intended as
a private offlist, an opinion, nothing particularly harmful (shortly after I
think I did the same thing), she graciously and profusely apologized, more
than I thought necessary.  Looks to me like that should have been the end of
it.  Ja? 
   
A couple years ago I recall a vitriolic exchange that ended up putting
several of the Italian posters on my watch list.  I realized at the time
that surely there had to be circumstances or exchanges going on behind the
scenes that I didn't know about and wouldn't understand even had I seen
them.  From what I read on ExI-chat, I was then and I am now at a loss to
explain how these quarrels start and sustain themselves.

Friends, do let us lift up each other, and recognize that we have common
shared goals.  If nothing else, let us think of that guy, old
whats-his-name, I always forget, starts with a J perhaps, that cat with all
the songs and churches, hmmm, oh yes Jesus Christ.  He thinks we should
forgive each other.  If they had had trolling and flaming back in those
days, he probably woulda been agin' it.

I am way behind in reading the posts (camping trip!), but it seems to me
that the conflict is actually political, and I don't pretend to understand
all the subtleties.  I urge all involved to forgive and move on, without
trying to explain to the whole world their side of a baffling conflict,
thanks.

spike







From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon May 17 09:34:02 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:34:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: Moderation notice (was: Re: R: Re: A question to
	the moderators)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilN2s5126sT5aAX1OpVBynKJr9Wh-Scws6KDk0d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilN2s5126sT5aAX1OpVBynKJr9Wh-Scws6KDk0d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikua5sVUQJ8taOnBTAB817L46_F5vBZVtw-OO2w@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 May 2010 16:51, estropico <estropico at gmail.com> wrote:

> One last thing if I may...
> This is your list and I will accept whatever you decide on this, but
> I'm wondering whether a *blanket* ban on this specific topic (i.e.
> whether or not a branch of Italian transhumanism has connections with
> neofascism) is the most suitable approach. I completely understand
> your desire to avoid any further flames, but those that occurred in
> the past were mainly caused by the use of name-calling in place of
> reasoned debate. Your strong clarification of where the boundaries of
> acceptable behaviour lie should help a lot in preventing a repeat of
> that (especially if coupled with robust and pront moderation).
>

And if you may not, you did it anyway, didn't you? :-)

Exactly raising, *on list*,  the subject Max remarked had not been touched
(yet), so making my passing remark unwarranted in the context, as I
willingly acknowledged.

Well, let us say that my alleged "name-calling" has been quickly vindicated.

But I shall not fall in the trap of feeding that exchange any further by
engaging, to everybody's annoyance, in a silly contest for the last word,
and will reply privately to the moderators.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 17 13:32:25 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:32:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
Message-ID: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>

Court: Body must be dug up so that head can be frozen

The Associated Press ? May 15, 2010

The siblings of a man who died more than a year ago must exhume his
body so his head can be cut off and cryogenically frozen, the Iowa
Court of Appeals has ruled.

<http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100515/NEWS/5150330>

The court this week sided with Alcor Life Extension Foundation, which
sought to dig up the remains of 81-year-old Orville Richardson of
Burlington. Richardson had signed a contract with Alcor in 2004 and
paid $53,500 to have his head placed in cryonic suspension after his
death.

When he died in February 2009, Richardson's brother and sister buried
him instead, having told him earlier that they would have nothing to
do with his plan, court records show.

Alcor learned Richardson had died two months after his death when his
brother, David Richardson, asked the Scottsdale, Ariz., company to
refund the money already paid.

The company filed a lawsuit seeking to exhume Orville Richardson's
body at its own expense. A Des Moines County District Court judge
denied the request. The appeals court reversed that decision
Wednesday. It said the lower court should have granted Alcor's request
because Richardson's siblings ignored their brother's request "despite
knowledge he had made different arrangements."
------------------------


I know the law is the law, but what was Alcor thinking?

This is getting bad publicity around the web.
Are Alcor saying it doesn't really matter if you are frozen within 15
minutes of death?

More here:
<http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100517/OPINION01/705179983>
Instead of just refusing to refund the money (it was the family?s
fault the company couldn?t keep its end of the bargain), Alcor sued to
exhume the body. The request was denied, but the Iowa Court of Appeals
reversed the decision Wednesday. It said the lower court should have
granted Alcor?s request because the siblings ignored their brother?s
request.

The deadline on that request, however, had long expired.

As AP reported: ?It was unclear what condition the body would be in.
According to Alcor, the cryonics process should begin within the first
two minutes after a heart stops, and preferably within the first 15
minutes.?

So the ?cryonics process? should start two minutes after a heart
stops, but Alcor wants to dig up a decaying body? Who knew contract
law could be so...creepy.

Alcor?s Web site states: ?The purpose of cryonics is to maintain life,
not reverse death.?

We?re not cryonicologists, or appeals court judges, but something is
rotten in the state of Cryonville.
-------------------------------


BillK



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon May 17 14:05:56 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:05:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiloOaClMfOHP2HG-AWpeOX0eqseTbl9rupK11oa@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 May 2010 15:32, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Court: Body must be dug up so that head can be frozen
>
> The Associated Press ? May 15, 2010
>
> The siblings of a man who died more than a year ago must exhume his
> body so his head can be cut off and cryogenically frozen, the Iowa
> Court of Appeals has ruled.
>
> <http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100515/NEWS/5150330>
>

This may be good news for Alcor or fulfil an exemplary purpose as to the
respect of the deceased's will.

But, OK, cryonics is certainly a better bet than putrefaction, but after one
year of the latter it would seem a very, very marginally better bet.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From painlord2k at libero.it  Mon May 17 14:44:43 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:44:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it>



Il 17/05/2010 15.32, BillK ha scritto:

> I know the law is the law, but what was Alcor thinking?

That a contract is a contract, a will is a will and bot must be respected.
Letting the heirs of the dead to gain from their actions would damage
the reputation of the Alcor.
A contract that can be ignored and voided by a third party without cost
has a very low value.

Why signing and paying the Alcor if my relative can prevent me from
obtaining their services.

Too bad they can not sue the relatives and suck them dry.

> This is getting bad publicity around the web.

Bad pubblicity for some is good pubblicity for others.

> Are Alcor saying it doesn't really matter if you are frozen within
> 15 minutes of death?

When people point the finger to the Moon and say "Look" do you look at
the finger?

Alcor is saying that don't really matter if your relatives agree or not
with you, if you sign a contract with them they will make their best to 
have it fulfilled. If not in spirit, at least at the letter. And your 
relatives will not obtain nothing from their opposition, apart to damage 
themselves.

> We?re not cryonicologists, or appeals court judges, but something is
> rotten in the state of Cryonville.

And the rot is the disregard for the wills of people and how their 
relatives are able to do so with little if any consequences

Mirco
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Nessun virus nel messaggio in uscita.
Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com 
Versione: 9.0.819 / Database dei virus: 271.1.1/2879 -  Data di rilascio: 05/17/10 08:26:00

From sparge at gmail.com  Mon May 17 14:42:16 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:42:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:32 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I know the law is the law, but what was Alcor thinking?

I think they're primarily making the point that you can't block them
from doing their thing simply by delaying the process. They're also
doing what they contractually agreed to do.

If the man's siblings' intent was to prevent Alcor from freezing his
head, they failed. If their intent was to get the money he paid Alcor
refunded, they failed.

-Dave


From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 15:07:35 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 08:07:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of BillK
... 
> Court: Body must be dug up so that head can be frozen
> 
> The Associated Press . May 15, 2010
> 
> The siblings of a man who died more than a year ago must 
> exhume his body so his head can be cut off and cryogenically 
> frozen, the Iowa Court of Appeals has ruled.
> 
> <http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100515/NEWS/5150330> 
...
> BillK

Oh goodness, BillK, there is so much to say here.  I can see why Alcor would
want to carry out this bizarre and ghoulish act, and I must reluctantly
agree: if they refunded Richardson's money to his heirs, then Alcor forever
motivates other heirs to other cryonicists to intentionally fail to carry
out the wishes of the deceased, hoping to get money from Alcor.

Richardson's death illustrates that contracts should be set up to allow
*any* person to collect a monetary reward from the estate of the cryonicist
by contributing to the successful suspension upon her demise, with bonuses
awarded for alacrity.

spike


  



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon May 17 15:59:34 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:59:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS:
	Self-directedEvolutionand the Future of Man
In-Reply-To: <E1456A7CC4BA4E7691F72F642A0D63B9@spike>
References: <AANLkTinCQ6mL2yI_Ahg3oDctgmWXlIiMMhQDNaXd9RFf@mail.gmail.com><20100514172424.41j3t4xkj0owkkww@webmail.natasha.cc><AANLkTilTm4T2y3tSoOygFAAZO4g2iIlCdYcN7YtV2E42@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1456A7CC4BA4E7691F72F642A0D63B9@spike>
Message-ID: <36DFC868AC654384BE022B9456453AF1@DFC68LF1>


The issue had nothing, abolutely nothing, to do with me.  The issue was
between Fabio and Stefano.


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:20 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] A question to the moderators WAS:
Self-directedEvolutionand the Future of Man


> ...
> On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:24 PM,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>  Hi Fabio,
>
>  I'll let Max and Spike respond fro themselves, but it took me a few  
> minutes to figure out precisely what you are referring to...
> ?If this is  correct and Stefano is making this accusation, no it is 
> not acceptable.
> 
> Max? Spike?
> 
>  Natasha

I do confess I am most puzzled by all this.

Natasha accidentally posted to the main list something that she intended as
a private offlist, an opinion, nothing particularly harmful (shortly after I
think I did the same thing), she graciously and profusely apologized, more
than I thought necessary.  Looks to me like that should have been the end of
it.  Ja? 
   
A couple years ago I recall a vitriolic exchange that ended up putting
several of the Italian posters on my watch list.  I realized at the time
that surely there had to be circumstances or exchanges going on behind the
scenes that I didn't know about and wouldn't understand even had I seen
them.  From what I read on ExI-chat, I was then and I am now at a loss to
explain how these quarrels start and sustain themselves.

Friends, do let us lift up each other, and recognize that we have common
shared goals.  If nothing else, let us think of that guy, old
whats-his-name, I always forget, starts with a J perhaps, that cat with all
the songs and churches, hmmm, oh yes Jesus Christ.  He thinks we should
forgive each other.  If they had had trolling and flaming back in those
days, he probably woulda been agin' it.

I am way behind in reading the posts (camping trip!), but it seems to me
that the conflict is actually political, and I don't pretend to understand
all the subtleties.  I urge all involved to forgive and move on, without
trying to explain to the whole world their side of a baffling conflict,
thanks.

spike





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From animeotaku at btinternet.com  Mon May 17 15:26:19 2010
From: animeotaku at btinternet.com (Holly Gray)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:26:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <217389.86916.qm@web86501.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

In this one, I find myself agreeing with Alcor. After all, what does it matter if a body is dug up? What is the meaning of a corpse? It's dead. The man wouldn't be able to be defrosted and revived after a year, but it helps the company's profits and damages, as far as I can see, nothing.



----- Original Message ----
From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, 17 May, 2010 14:32:25
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird

Court: Body must be dug up so that head can be frozen

The Associated Press ? May 15, 2010

The siblings of a man who died more than a year ago must exhume his
body so his head can be cut off and cryogenically frozen, the Iowa
Court of Appeals has ruled.

<http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100515/NEWS/5150330>

The court this week sided with Alcor Life Extension Foundation, which
sought to dig up the remains of 81-year-old Orville Richardson of
Burlington. Richardson had signed a contract with Alcor in 2004 and
paid $53,500 to have his head placed in cryonic suspension after his
death.

When he died in February 2009, Richardson's brother and sister buried
him instead, having told him earlier that they would have nothing to
do with his plan, court records show.

Alcor learned Richardson had died two months after his death when his
brother, David Richardson, asked the Scottsdale, Ariz., company to
refund the money already paid.

The company filed a lawsuit seeking to exhume Orville Richardson's
body at its own expense. A Des Moines County District Court judge
denied the request. The appeals court reversed that decision
Wednesday. It said the lower court should have granted Alcor's request
because Richardson's siblings ignored their brother's request "despite
knowledge he had made different arrangements."
------------------------


I know the law is the law, but what was Alcor thinking?

This is getting bad publicity around the web.
Are Alcor saying it doesn't really matter if you are frozen within 15
minutes of death?

More here:
<http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100517/OPINION01/705179983>
Instead of just refusing to refund the money (it was the family?s
fault the company couldn?t keep its end of the bargain), Alcor sued to
exhume the body. The request was denied, but the Iowa Court of Appeals
reversed the decision Wednesday. It said the lower court should have
granted Alcor?s request because the siblings ignored their brother?s
request.

The deadline on that request, however, had long expired.

As AP reported: ?It was unclear what condition the body would be in.
According to Alcor, the cryonics process should begin within the first
two minutes after a heart stops, and preferably within the first 15
minutes.?

So the ?cryonics process? should start two minutes after a heart
stops, but Alcor wants to dig up a decaying body? Who knew contract
law could be so...creepy.

Alcor?s Web site states: ?The purpose of cryonics is to maintain life,
not reverse death.?

We?re not cryonicologists, or appeals court judges, but something is
rotten in the state of Cryonville.
-------------------------------


BillK

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 15:48:52 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 08:48:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it>
Message-ID: <340C1761C44F48A1B8F3293BDCEC0931@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
> ...
> 
> > This is getting bad publicity around the web.
> 
> Bad pubblicity for some is good pubblicity for others...

It is getting more that way every day.  It used to be "Bad publicity is
better than no publicity."  Today it has become "Bad publicity is better
than good publicity." 

> > Are Alcor saying it doesn't really matter if you are frozen within
> > 15 minutes of death?
> 
> When people point the finger to the Moon and say "Look" do 
> you look at the finger?

I had a dog that used to do this.  It was a hoot.  {8^D

> Alcor is saying...if you sign a contract with them they 
> will make their best to have it fulfilled... Mirco

I must agree, in spite of the weirdness.  Make a 2x2 matrix with refund-not
refund on the vertical and dig-not dig on the horizontal.  Quadrant 1) If
any cryonics company refunds the money and does not dig, they motivate
future heirs to not inform Alcor.  Quad 2) If any cryonics company does not
refund and does not dig, it motivates the company to not go out of their way
to track their clients.  Quadrant 3) if any company both refunds and digs,
it goes out of business quickly.  Quadrant 4) does not refund, digs.  

Quad 4 carries out the contract as signed, legally, as required.  Sure it is
hopeless for its original intent, but it is better than the other three
options, is it not?  It isn't good, but the others are worse.  Start
digging.  Are there any Alcorian inner circle types here who could tell us
if they went down this same line of reasoning and reached this conclusion?

I am open as hell to suggestion here, but do refer to the above quadrants.

spike

   



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon May 17 16:52:29 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:52:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism:  Better thinking about issues
Message-ID: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>

Transhumanists can help to fill the gap between living in denial and living
with knowledge.  There are many transhumanist papers and articles that
address how to think intelligently and why rational is necessary.  This is a
reminder that we need more exposure in this area:
 
http://www.newscientist.com/special/living-in-denial
 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon May 17 16:22:48 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 12:22:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
Message-ID: <201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Richardson's death illustrates that contracts should be set up to allow
>*any* person to collect a monetary reward from the estate of the cryonicist
>by contributing to the successful suspension upon her demise, with bonuses
>awarded for alacrity.

In particular, something like:

Any medical facility promptly and correctly applying the biostasis protocol
will receive a grant of $100,000.

Any medical examiner waiving their legal authority to perform an autopsy
will receive a grant of $100,000 for their facility.

What one wants are sizeable incentives for everyone along the way. If Alcor
et al strongly encourage members to set up this sort of thing, and they do,
the word can be spread through the medical, legal, emergency response,
and transportation communities, so they're prepared and motivated.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 17:33:47 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:33:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
Message-ID: <3D7F49A9253A4CE88DDF9AC67FE5E0FB@spike>

Friends,
 
A recent discussion here resulted in my commenting to a friend offlist that
everything I know about Italy I learned from reading Mario Puzo's excellent
early novel The Fortunate Pilgrim.  Then I realized how dumb that musta
sounded: Puzo was born in America, and the novel is about an American
childhood in an Italian neighborhood.  So I still don't know anything about
Italy.
 
Question please: if you wished to explain your native culture to someone
outside, which book would you recommend and why?  This question is not what
is your favorite book, or what explains transhumanism etc.  Rather, if you
wanted to explain your native land and culture for instance, which book or
which author?  Tomasz for instance, would you recommend Michener's Poland?
 
USians, you get to play too.  Personally I am a huge fan of Steinbeck, but
his stuff is dated now, having pretty much ended in the 1960s.  His Travels
With Charley is a great 1960s book.
 
Websites are OK too, in fact preferrable in some important ways.
 
spike
 
 
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 18:26:04 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:26:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of David Lubkin
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
> 
> Spike wrote:
> 
> >Richardson's death illustrates that contracts should be set 
> up to allow
> >*any* person to collect a monetary reward from the estate of the 
> >cryonicist by contributing to the successful suspension upon her 
> >demise, with bonuses awarded for alacrity.
> 
> In particular, something like:
> 
> Any medical facility promptly and correctly applying the 
> biostasis protocol will receive a grant of $100,000... -- David.
>

Ja!  There are many human motives that cause us to do all the weird stuff
that we do.  Most of us here have family or friends who firmly believe that
we sinners have only one shot at eternity: to confess our sins and hope the
flying spaghetti monster forgives us, or some random deity will do likewise,
and that this all requires faith and a proper burial, etc.  Regardless of
our wishes, these family or friends might have far too much legal authority
over what happens to our rapidly cooling remains.

In all the motives that we humans carry, religious faith, sense of duty,
conscience, family obligations, greed, etc, I wish to put all my chips on
greed.  Self interest is the motive that to me is the easiest to understand,
the most reliable and trustworthy of human motives, even if often disparaged
as the basest.  If a team of memetically widely disparate individuals must
work together, greed is the motive I want in the driver's seat.

spike

  



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon May 17 18:02:08 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:02:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <253974.74678.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 5/17/10, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Any medical facility promptly and correctly applying the
> biostasis protocol
> will receive a grant of $100,000.
> 
> Any medical examiner waiving their legal authority to
> perform an autopsy
> will receive a grant of $100,000 for their facility.

A good idea, but Alcor only charges $150,000 for whole-body
preservation, or $80,000 for head-only, and that's far from
pure profit.  But maybe $10,000 could be spared for the
former case.  (In the latter, there could be many such
examiners - and in many cases, they're technically legally
obligated to respect the deceased's wishes anyway, unless
it's a murder investigation or other situation where a
financial incentive would not help.)


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 17 19:15:16 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:15:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/17/10, spike wrote:
>  Ja!  There are many human motives that cause us to do all the weird stuff
>  that we do.  Most of us here have family or friends who firmly believe that
>  we sinners have only one shot at eternity: to confess our sins and hope the
>  flying spaghetti monster forgives us, or some random deity will do likewise,
>  and that this all requires faith and a proper burial, etc.  Regardless of
>  our wishes, these family or friends might have far too much legal authority
>  over what happens to our rapidly cooling remains.
>
>  In all the motives that we humans carry, religious faith, sense of duty,
>  conscience, family obligations, greed, etc, I wish to put all my chips on
>  greed.  Self interest is the motive that to me is the easiest to understand,
>  the most reliable and trustworthy of human motives, even if often disparaged
>  as the basest.  If a team of memetically widely disparate individuals must
>  work together, greed is the motive I want in the driver's seat.
>
>

In some cases an autopsy is required by law. e.g. sudden or suspicious death.

The relatives can insist on an autopsy. e.g. if they want to sue
somebody for medical malpractice or are suspicious about medications
given near the time of death.
(The rewards from a successful suit can be in the millions).


Of course we can all see that Alcor's intent was to obtain legal
confirmation of the enforceability of contracts.

But it looks to me like winning a battle and losing the war.
What credibility does the cryonics process have when they are digging
up a year-old skull and freezing it?
To the general public it appears that Alcor want the money regardless
of the service they provide. (Inferring that their service is useless
anyway).

If they want to be considered as reputable science then what they
should have said was that they were unable to fulfill the contract due
to deliberate obstructionism from the relatives and refused to return
the money to the relatives. This would have left it up to the
relatives to sue for the return of the money. But the relatives would
have lost on the same grounds as Alcor won the right exhume the body.
Quote: The Iowa Court of Appeals reversed the decision Wednesday. It
said the lower court should have granted Alcor?s request because the
siblings ignored their brother?s request.

This would have been much better PR. Making the siblings out to be the
money-grabbing evil-doers who ignored their brother's dying wishes so
as to snatch the money back from Alcor.

BillK



From scerir at libero.it  Mon May 17 19:19:31 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:19:31 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
Message-ID: <21042676.452771274123971179.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Spike spiked:
> Question please: if you wished to explain your native culture to someone
> outside, which book would you recommend and why?  

'The Leopard' (Italian: 'Il Gattopardo') a novel by 
Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa, published, 
posthumously, in 1958. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Leopard
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808645786/info
http://www.communitywalk.com/the_leopard_map/map/359495

Why? It is a masterpiece. "For things to remain the same, everything must 
change",
the famous catch-phrase simply suggests ... adaptation.


From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 19:50:52 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 12:50:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of BillK
... 
> But it looks to me like winning a battle and losing the war... 
> they should have said was that they were unable to fulfill 
> the contract due to deliberate obstructionism from the 
> relatives and refused to return the money to the relatives...
> BillK

BillK makes a compelling case for quadrant 2 on the grounds that it is
better PR for Alcor and cryonics in general.

Quad 1) refund, no dig
Quad 2) no refund, no dig
Quad 3) refund, dig
Quad 4) no refund, dig.

I chose quadrant 4, recogizing the PR disadvantages.  Quad 2 would have been
my second choice, behind quad 4 by a very thin margin.  

This may turn into an interesting discussion, especially if anyone presents
compelling arguments for quads 1 and 3.  If you wish, you may third-person
yourself to argue for those two cases, creating a sock-puppet: Mr. Argyle
says refund and no dig because yakkity yak, but Ms. McLegg says refund and
dig because bla bla.

Thanks BillK!

spike 



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon May 17 19:57:58 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:57:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <253974.74678.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<253974.74678.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201005172000.o4HK0EOk021662@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Adrian wrote:

>A good idea, but Alcor only charges $150,000 for whole-body
>preservation, or $80,000 for head-only, and that's far from
>pure profit.  But maybe $10,000 could be spared for the
>former case.

The ($100,000 x several) would not be from the basic funding. It would
be from additional insurance.

Alcor members are already encouraged to have more than the minimum,
to cover a standby team and other exigencies during suspension. And
I know people who make substantial outside investments, preferably in
locations without the law of perpetuities, to increase the likelihood of
getting re-animated.

For most of us, the cost difference in annual premiums for a term life
policy for $150K vs. $500K isn't that great, and could make a big
difference in whether you get an optimal suspension or not.

Another thought re incentives. The problem in this case is family members.
If you have assets anyone would care about, write your will so that whether
they help or hinder your suspension alters their bequest, and make sure
they know this.


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon May 17 20:06:53 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:06:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>

I'd go with BillK on this: no refund, no exhumation, certainly no cryo 
on decomposed remains. It's (so to speak) a no brainer.

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 20:14:17 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:14:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] japanese solar sail
Message-ID: <41094FAD9A3B4F55BA47C24FA7A705DC@spike>

Cool!  Japan is launching an experimental solar sail aboard an H-2A:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/17/japan-ikaros-solar-sail/?test=late
stnews
 
"A new Japanese weather probe and daring solar sail concept are scheduled to
blast off together Monday evening for a six-month journey to study Venus..."
 
Jeez this sure took long enough.  We solar sail fans have been waiting a
looooong time for someone to do this, the first really new space concept
since the 1960s.  Check its progress here:
 
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/japan-venus-probe-solar-sail-sfn-100511
.html
 
spike
 
 
 
 
 
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From timhalterman at gmail.com  Mon May 17 20:27:29 2010
From: timhalterman at gmail.com (Tim Halterman)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:27:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>

I believe Alcor made the right decision in exhuming and preserving the
individual even if the optimal time to do so had passed.  The simple fact of
the matter is we do not know what technology we will haves access to in the
future for the process of reanimation.  I can be confident in the fact that
having the physical remains no matter that state would make whatever process
easier.

In response to Spikes decision matrix
Quad 1) refund, no dig
Quad 2) no refund, no dig
Quad 3) refund, dig
Quad 4) no refund, dig.

I would have preferred Quad 4 and then Quad 3.   Legality of money issues
aside, as an individual I entered into a good faith contract with Alcor and
would expect them to live up to their end of the bargain no matter the end
financial consequences.  While I realize the general public may feel yuck
about it as a potential customer I feel Alcor made the best decision.

-Tim
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 20:46:15 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:46:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
...
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
> 
> I'd go with BillK on this: no refund, no exhumation, 
> certainly no cryo on decomposed remains. It's (so to speak) a 
> no brainer.
> 
> Damien Broderick

Do pardon my overposting today, for there is much interesting discussion
currently.

Thanks Damien, extra points for the wordplay.  But do let us explore this
highly relevant thought space with the most extreme thoroughness.  You
offered an opinion, but not so much a line of reasoning.  I agree, the
freezing of an empty skull is not a good thing from a PR standpoint.
Richardson is an extreme case, but the real problem is in defining the go-no
go point.  What if the cryonaut had been perished a week instead of a year?
A day?  How do we clearly legally define "decomposed remains"?  How would
you defend quad 2 to a religion memebot?

Damien, since you are an excellent writer, do allow me to invite you to take
up one of the other positions: your friend Damien is a quad 2er but I, Ms
McLegg have become persuaded to be a quad 1er (or 3er) because...

Others please?

spike 



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon May 17 20:29:22 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:29:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear fusion breakthrough...or not
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin1ZKH1AzJDpBJIFsOZjoyirLEGlKXMtDAkKZ3R@mail.gmail.com>
References: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTin1ZKH1AzJDpBJIFsOZjoyirLEGlKXMtDAkKZ3R@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <601F31C2-EB32-4D3B-9A6B-06998EDA4EAD@bellsouth.net>

And in the late 1950's Peron's Argentina claimed they had discovered the secret of controlled nuclear fusion. Wake me up when something interesting happens.

 John K Clark
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon May 17 21:03:16 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:03:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] japanese solar sail
In-Reply-To: <41094FAD9A3B4F55BA47C24FA7A705DC@spike>
References: <41094FAD9A3B4F55BA47C24FA7A705DC@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF1AF14.9080609@satx.rr.com>

On 5/17/2010 3:14 PM, spike wrote:

> "A new Japanese weather probe and daring solar sail concept are
> scheduled to blast off together Monday evening for a six-month journey
> to study Venus..."
> Jeez this sure took long enough.  We solar sail fans have been waiting a
> looooong time for someone to do this

My mate Gregory Benford (and his twin brother, James) were involved in 
doing this sort of thing five years ago, but the Russian launch rocket 
ran off and was never seen again.

<http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2005-02/solar-sail-experiment-fails-reach-orbit>

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon May 17 21:10:40 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:10:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>

On 5/17/2010 3:27 PM, Tim Halterman wrote:

> I believe Alcor made the right decision in exhuming and preserving the
> individual even if the optimal time to do so had passed.

Suppose the remains had been cremated and cemented into a mausoleum. 
Would you still advocate retrieving the ashes and freezing *them*?

(But then again, I suppose that in the real case there's the faintest 
remote chance that some sort of entanglement might persist despite 
decay, and that in the future marvelous science/technology might 
reconstruct a holographic replica of the original using whatever had not 
been entirely dissipated. Almost impossibly hard to take seriously, but 
then again--)

Damien Broderick




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon May 17 21:15:49 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:15:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF1B205.60608@satx.rr.com>

On 5/17/2010 3:46 PM, spike wrote:

> You
> offered an opinion, but not so much a line of reasoning.

My reasoning is that the guy's brain is gone, as you immediately 
acknowledged. (But see my follow-up for a last ditch plea based on 
woo-woo and future miracle science.)

> I agree, the
> freezing of an empty skull is not a good thing from a PR standpoint.
> Richardson is an extreme case,

It is the case at issue, however.

> but the real problem is in defining the go-no
> go point.

That is surely something for informed experts to debate.

Damien Broderick




From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 17 21:04:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:04:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F66F4E5FAAE41AFA6A95445873C756E@spike>

 
Please may I propose that we suspend for two days the usual limit on posts,
so long as they are on this topic.  Reasoning: a bunch of us here are signed
upwardly.  Cryonic suspension is a highly relevant discussion to many,
something in which many of us have a huge investment, or will soon, and so I
ask Natasha and Max to pardon what I expect to be a wildly interesting and
verbose exchange that will likely go way beyond five posts a day for some.  

Keep it relevant, as I am going way out on a limb to propose a temporary
(today and tomorrow) open season on the topic Cryonics is getting weird.

________________________________

	...On Behalf Of Tim Halterman
	Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
	


	
>	...I believe Alcor made the right decision in exhuming and
preserving the individual even if the optimal time to do so had passed.  The
simple fact of the matter is we do not know what technology we will haves
access to in the future for the process of reanimation.  I can be confident
in the fact that having the physical remains no matter that state would make
whatever process easier...	I would have preferred Quad 4 and then Quad
3...


Ja, quad 3 is likely the very best for cryonics PR, but the worst for Alcor,
running up expenses without being paid, oy.


	 
	In response to Spikes decision matrix 
	Quad 1) refund, no dig
	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
	Quad 3) refund, dig
	Quad 4) no refund, dig.
	 
	>I would have preferred Quad 4 and then Quad 3.   Legality of money
issues aside...

Ja, unfortunately legality and especially money issues are never aside.  If
we do anything to endanger Alcor's financial future, we endanger everyone in
that dewar.


>...as an individual I entered into a good faith contract with Alcor and
would expect them to live up to their end of the bargain no matter the end
financial consequences...

But one of those possible consequences is bankruptcy followed by melting.  I
am with you on the option 4.  As a possible expansion of the question, go
ahead and offer all four quadrants in order from the best to the worst, and
why.


 > ...While I realize the general public may feel yuck about it as a
potential customer I feel Alcor made the best decision. -Tim

Ja, thanks Tim, the proles don't like cryonics.  Well, I do, but the rest of
the proles do not.  Even the title of this thread suggests it, Cryonics is
getting weird.  If you asked my family members they would all say "No pal,
cryonics is already weird.  Now it is getting appalling."  

I am one whose family is almost entirely composed of Jesusoids.  They will
want to use my decaying corpse as a centerpiece at my funeral, a ceremony
which I don't even want.  That will be one hell of a task to get around that
problem.

spike






From timhalterman at gmail.com  Mon May 17 21:38:16 2010
From: timhalterman at gmail.com (Tim Halterman)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:38:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1B205.60608@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike> <4BF1B205.60608@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimVCFPBWKvd8magZbqL6v9CGMOJMMsEi0pnSHkt@mail.gmail.com>

I realize I'm relying on the "woo-woo and future miracle science" but you
could also look at a contract with Alcor simply as sure intention that you
have a desire to be revived in the future.  Let's jump forward 1,000 years
or so and say there is a technology developed that can retrieve the
consciousness of any individual who ever existed.  While I can't pretend to
understand their morality I could imagine then asking, "But did they WANT to
be retrieved?"   A contract with Alcor at least provides a record and shows
a solid commitment to the desire of being revived in the future.  If I had
that technology I know that would be the first list I go to.

Damien wrote:
Suppose the remains had been cremated and cemented into a mausoleum. Would
you still advocate retrieving the ashes and freezing *them*?

- Contractual obligations of freezing aside I would not be opposed to Alcor
simply retrieving the ashes for storage or dictating they're best preserved
where they are.  Freezing ashes would probably cause more harm than good.
(although I'm no expert on that)


As for the go, no go point and being determined by experts, again I'm going
to have to point out that all the knowledge of today can only make an
educated guess as to what be possible tomorrow.  In my opinion it is best to
err on the side of preservation over abandonment, but of course I'm biased.

-Tim
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From giancarlitobrigante at gmail.com  Mon May 17 22:19:26 2010
From: giancarlitobrigante at gmail.com (giancarlos)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 00:19:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
References: <3D7F49A9253A4CE88DDF9AC67FE5E0FB@spike>
Message-ID: <8C3D6B8D22C746F5A1D6BAB22E8EDF59@casac679d9543b>

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: spike
> To: 'ExI chat list'
> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 7:33 PM
> Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
>
>
> Friends,
>
> A recent discussion here resulted in my commenting to a friend offlist
> that
> everything I know about Italy I learned from reading Mario Puzo's
> excellent
> early novel The Fortunate Pilgrim.  Then I realized how dumb that musta
> sounded: Puzo was born in America, and the novel is about an American
> childhood in an Italian neighborhood.  So I still don't know anything
> about
> Italy.
>
> Question please: if you wished to explain your native culture to someone
> outside, which book would you recommend and why?

This is a very difficult question to answer.

Instead of a book I would suggest you a movie, The Best of Youth (La Meglio
Giovent?): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346336/
That's an excellent picture of italian society during the second half of XX 
century.

Then, more jokingly, you can watch this short video (there's some truth in 
it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAJNFoHuLno

Ciao,
Giancarlo



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon May 17 22:33:03 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:33:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimVCFPBWKvd8magZbqL6v9CGMOJMMsEi0pnSHkt@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike> <4BF1B205.60608@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimVCFPBWKvd8magZbqL6v9CGMOJMMsEi0pnSHkt@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilHfhRqXGcpwflzlJWdSssX0Av5g9hlYSAmCWpq@mail.gmail.com>

I have a slightly different take on this.

First, the go-no go, suspend or not suspend issue.  Someone said
legalities **DO** matter.  I agree.  If Alcor doesn't freeze the
putrefied remnant of Mr. Richardson's brain/head, then they seem to
leave themselves open to charges of fraud, breach of contract, or
perhaps something else.  So they've gotta freeze.  And of course no
refund to the surviving family.  Cannot let that precedent stand.
Cannot allow others to think they can get away with doing the same.

The other issue for me is Richardson's complicity in allowing this to
happen.  From the available information -- caveat emptor -- it appears
the family was overt in their opposition to Mr. Richardson's cryonic
suspension plans.  If that is indeed the case, then Mr. Richardson
needed to take steps to prevent/disincentivise any action on their
part to interfere with his suspension. Among these would be pre-mortem
transfer of the bulk of the estate to an independent third party, for
reliable disbursement of the estate in accordance with decedant's
wishes, plus terms of the will specifically excluding any payments to
anyone acting, or even speaking out, against fulfillment of decedent's
wishes.  I would require affidavits signed by any potential
beneficiaries, acknowledging as a condition of eligibility for any
disbursement from the estate, that they understand, agree to, and
pledge to support decedent's wishes, and in particular understand,
acknowledge, and agree to facilitate a timely suspension.  I would go
so far as to require anyone anticipating a disbursement from the
estate, to be by decedent's bedside at the time of death, prepared to-
and effectively act to facilitate decedent's suspension.

Sadly, it appears Mr. Richardson blew it.  Anyone hoping to get a good
suspension needs to learn from his tragic lapse of judgment.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "My guess is that people don't yet realize how
       "handy" an indefinite lifespan will be."
                         J Corbally


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon May 17 22:42:26 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:42:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear fusion breakthrough...or not
In-Reply-To: <601F31C2-EB32-4D3B-9A6B-06998EDA4EAD@bellsouth.net>
References: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTin1ZKH1AzJDpBJIFsOZjoyirLEGlKXMtDAkKZ3R@mail.gmail.com>
	<601F31C2-EB32-4D3B-9A6B-06998EDA4EAD@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimQBZM-Rc6KmkLDo0FKRTp7Vjkoajy7R6Ir5j4d@mail.gmail.com>

Sleep tight, John.

Best, Jeff Davis

"Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                    Ray Charles

2010/5/17 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> And in the late 1950's Peron's Argentina claimed they had discovered the
> secret of controlled nuclear fusion. Wake me up when something interesting
> happens.
> ?John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon May 17 22:55:31 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:55:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilHfhRqXGcpwflzlJWdSssX0Av5g9hlYSAmCWpq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
	<4BF1B205.60608@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimVCFPBWKvd8magZbqL6v9CGMOJMMsEi0pnSHkt@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilHfhRqXGcpwflzlJWdSssX0Av5g9hlYSAmCWpq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF1C963.8050708@satx.rr.com>

On 5/17/2010 5:33 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:

> If Alcor doesn't freeze the
> putrefied remnant of Mr. Richardson's brain/head, then they seem to
> leave themselves open to charges of fraud, breach of contract, or
> perhaps something else.  So they've gotta freeze.

I'm trying to think of a parallel case; the problem is that existing 
ethics rules block most of them. For example, suppose one could contract 
to have a heart transplant if one needed it and this was funded upfront 
in the form of insurance. Alas, you up and die because your 
fundamentalist Xian relatives refuse to let you enter the hospital, and 
your corpse is buried--and then a year later the cardiac team sues to 
have your body exhumed, and they transplant a young heart into the 
liquified cadaver, as promised. This would be grotesquely absurd, but is 
the parallel with the present case completely far-fetched?

Damien Broderick


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon May 17 23:28:22 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:28:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1C963.8050708@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike> <4BF1B205.60608@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimVCFPBWKvd8magZbqL6v9CGMOJMMsEi0pnSHkt@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilHfhRqXGcpwflzlJWdSssX0Av5g9hlYSAmCWpq@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1C963.8050708@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimY_BQfL8dwGMq5X_sM6p_YAypwQwZ0g2XYr4PO@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 5/17/2010 5:33 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
>
>> If Alcor doesn't freeze the
>> putrefied remnant of Mr. Richardson's brain/head, then they seem to
>> leave themselves open to charges of fraud, breach of contract, or
>> perhaps something else. ?So they've gotta freeze.
>
> I'm trying to think of a parallel case;

Keep trying, Damien.

The heart transplant comparison doesn't work because heart transplants
are established, conventional, regulated medicine, performed on live
people, and with proven outcomes.  The Xians who refused to allow the
individual to receive the life-saving medical care he had sought and
paid for might well be facing criminal charges.  Not so with
Richardson and his loving family.

By the way, not to be too picky, but the subject line says "weird",
but I don't see it that way.  This is not at all weird because it is
not about Richardson's failed neuro.  It is about Alcor acting
responsibly in regard to its FUTURE clientele, who would be severely
impacted by a precedent whereby any future Alcor client could be
unceremoniously dumped in a grave -- in contravention of their clear
desire to be suspended -- and the survivors just phone up Alcor and
tell them where to send the refund check.  Nothing weird about getting
a judgment that puts and end to that idea .

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Death is really just an engineering problem."
                      Regina Pancake



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 00:09:36 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:09:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiloOaClMfOHP2HG-AWpeOX0eqseTbl9rupK11oa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiloOaClMfOHP2HG-AWpeOX0eqseTbl9rupK11oa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF1DAC0.2060207@mac.com>

Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On 17 May 2010 15:32, BillK <pharos at gmail.com 
> <mailto:pharos at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Court: Body must be dug up so that head can be frozen
>
>     The Associated Press . May 15, 2010
>
>     The siblings of a man who died more than a year ago must exhume his
>     body so his head can be cut off and cryogenically frozen, the Iowa
>     Court of Appeals has ruled.
>
>     <http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100515/NEWS/5150330>
>
>
> This may be good news for Alcor or fulfil an exemplary purpose as to 
> the respect of the deceased's will.

It seems to me that a totally different legal action should of 
occurred.  Most likely failure to honor a will.  This seeking to dig up 
a grave for no good purpose whatsoever is utterly ridiculous. 
>
> But, OK, cryonics is certainly a better bet than putrefaction, but 
> after one year of the latter it would seem a very, very marginally 
> better bet.
>
There is nothing at all that can be done with such remains except to get 
a copy of the deceased DNA.  The brain/mind is irrevocably lost short of 
time travel and other unlikely scenarios.

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 00:11:48 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:11:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com>

Dave Sill wrote:
> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:32 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> I know the law is the law, but what was Alcor thinking?
>>     
>
> I think they're primarily making the point that you can't block them
> from doing their thing simply by delaying the process. They're also
> doing what they contractually agreed to do.
>   

No.  They agreed to cryonically preserve his brain to the best of 
current art.  That brain is now useless mush.  This is the equivalent to 
digging up a corpse because you agreed to marry the person before their 
untimely death.  It is gruesome slime smeared on cryonics.  I do not 
consider this a "victory" in the slightest.

- samantha

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 00:27:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:27:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1DAC0.2060207@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTiloOaClMfOHP2HG-AWpeOX0eqseTbl9rupK11oa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1DAC0.2060207@mac.com>
Message-ID: <21CF3FFC277441ACA6AA18288F2CB3FE@spike>

>...It seems to me that a totally different legal action should of occurred.
Most likely failure to honor a will.  This seeking to dig up a grave for no
good purpose whatsoever is utterly ridiculous... Samantha
 
 
I will take that as an anti-quad 4.
 
Samantha, you are signed up, ja?  Which quadrant are you in, madam?  See
there, two sentences in a row in which I have avoided ending a sentence with
a preposition by merely adding a word. 
 
Has anyone here buddies that work for Alcor?  Please, would you forward to
them that there is a good discussion going on here regarding their employer,
and they shoudl feel free, nay more than that, please do drop in and join.
I will put them thru immediately as having posting priveleges, no delay
period, no questions asked.  
 
Samantha you are friends with Tanya Jones?  Shame on me, for I don't even
know my own cousin's email @.  Actually she isn't really my cousin (I wish)
but do invite her to join us please if you have her contact info.  Isn't she
the nicest cryomortician you ever met?  Keith, have you friends in Alcor?
Shall we forward to Alcor what has already been posted?
 
spike
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 00:06:26 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:06:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <7F66F4E5FAAE41AFA6A95445873C756E@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F66F4E5FAAE41AFA6A95445873C756E@spike>
Message-ID: <62B6936A13B54122A84EACC872E2312F@spike>

...	 
> 	...Spikes decision matrix:
 
> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig.

Score so far:

Quad 1) 	spike's 3rd 

Quad 2)	BillK?, spike's 2nd, Damien 

Quad 3)	Tim Halterman's 2nd

Quad 4)	Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff
Davis,  Stefano(?)

Adrian, David Lubkin I can't tell from your responses which quadrant you
chose.  Where, me lads, and why?  Stefano, BillK, do I have you in the right
quad?  Anyone else wishing to comment, do feel free to add in your second
and/or third choice if you wish, and offer explanation please.  Your
reasoning is actually more informative than your position.  Quads 1 and 3
are still lonely, but I can imagine an argument for quad 1, which I will set
up in a reference matrix, which I welcome all to help fill out.  Try to
summarize your comments as shown: 

> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, 

Quad 1, for:  	best for Alcor PR.  ref: ? 

Quad 1, against:  motivates relatives to burn or bury you. ref: spike


Quad 2, for:   	better PR for Alcor than 4.  ref. BillK, Damien.

Quad 2, against:	breaks contract, opens Alcor to liability.  ref.
Jeff Davis(?)


Quad 3, for:	help me here.

Quad 3, against:	Alcor goes broke, risks the currently suspended.
ref. spike


Quad 4, for:	Alcor carries out what it agreed to do contractually.  refs:
Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff Davis,
Stefano(?)

Quad 4, against:	bad PR for Alcor, hopeless for the patient, silly,
gross, etc.  refs:  Damien, BillK(?)


Please those who are signed up especially, do chime in for your comments are
most relevant here.  If you have posted a lot today, go ahead and post on
this anyway, as I am offering a papal indulgence until Max or Natasha stops
me.

spike



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 00:34:18 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:34:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism: Better thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <4BF1E08A.8050708@mac.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> Transhumanists can help to fill the gap between living in denial and 
> living with knowledge.  There are many transhumanist papers and 
> articles that address how to think intelligently and why rational is 
> necessary.  This is a reminder that we need more exposure in this area:
>  
> http://www.newscientist.com/special/living-in-denial
>  
So-called "denialism" seems in part a weapon to silence or demean 
critics event when there arguments have considerable merit.

- samantha

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue May 18 00:24:39 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:24:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 2:10:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird

(But then again, I suppose that in the real case there's 
> the faintest remote chance that some sort of entanglement might persist despite 
> decay, and that in the future marvelous science/technology might reconstruct a 
> holographic replica of the original using whatever had not been entirely 
> dissipated. Almost impossibly hard to take seriously, but then 
> again--)

My two cents: If the mind is quantum mechanical, then there is not much hope for the guy, but there might not have been anyway. on the other hand, if the mind is no more than the straightforward physicalist interpretation of interneural connections, then the quality of his embalming will make all the difference. Embalming fluid is largely formaldehyde and formaldehyde is a fixative that cross-links proteins to one another with chemical bonds. This makes the?proteins resistant to bacterial digestive enzymes, since the amino acids are no longer "normal". This prevents putrefecation and also serves to preserve?cell morphology by reinforcing the structure. This why formaldehyde is used so extensively in biology to preserve specimens. And since formaldehyde is used to preserve tissue sections for microscope slides, it?preserves structure at a microscopic level quite well. So if classic physicalism is correct *AND* he was correctly perfused with high enough
 concentration of formaldehyde, his synaptic connections may be intact enough for a destructive upload down the line, albeit with some sort of software error-correction for the anomolous CH2 bonds between proteins. Take for example the corpses of Eva Peron and Lenin, who were so well embalmed that they showed no signs of putrefecation years after they died.?That being said, he would have been better off if some shred of his living tissue had been frozen down for potentially cloning him a new body,?etc.



      




From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 00:39:41 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:39:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF1E1CD.2000700@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>> ...On Behalf Of BillK
>>     
> ... 
>   
>> But it looks to me like winning a battle and losing the war... 
>> they should have said was that they were unable to fulfill 
>> the contract due to deliberate obstructionism from the 
>> relatives and refused to return the money to the relatives...
>> BillK
>>     
>
> BillK makes a compelling case for quadrant 2 on the grounds that it is
> better PR for Alcor and cryonics in general.
>
> Quad 1) refund, no dig
> Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> Quad 3) refund, dig
> Quad 4) no refund, dig.
>
>   
I choose quadrant 2.  Alcor was prevented from fulfilling the letter of 
the contract but was guilty of no sort of breach of contract.  The 
contract should / could be written so there is no refund except by the 
express wishes of the person that made the contract.   No refund except 
in express circumstances is not uncommon.  The dig was pointless, 
emotionally punitive and bad PR. 

- samantha


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From algaenymph at gmail.com  Tue May 18 00:39:35 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:39:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism: Better thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <4BF1E1C7.8060306@gmail.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> There are many transhumanist papers and articles that address how to 
> think intelligently and why rational is necessary.
Where can I find them?
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 00:45:29 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:45:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] japanese solar sail
In-Reply-To: <41094FAD9A3B4F55BA47C24FA7A705DC@spike>
References: <41094FAD9A3B4F55BA47C24FA7A705DC@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF1E329.7080603@mac.com>

While I didn't cover solar sails some of you may enjoy or care to 
comment on my latest compilation of space related material and SL talk.  
This one was on non-rocket means of space launch.   It can be found at 
http://soft-transcend.org/Fulfillment/chatLogs/051510_NonRocketLaunchTech.htm.

- samantha

spike wrote:
> Cool!  Japan is launching an experimental solar sail aboard an H-2A:
>  
> http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/17/japan-ikaros-solar-sail/?test=latestnews
>  
> "A new Japanese weather probe and daring solar sail concept are 
> scheduled to blast off together Monday evening for a six-month journey 
> to study Venus..."
>  
> Jeez this sure took long enough.  We solar sail fans have been waiting 
> a looooong time for someone to do this, the first really new space 
> concept since the 1960s.  Check its progress here:
>  
> http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/japan-venus-probe-solar-sail-sfn-100511.html
>  
> spike
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

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From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue May 18 00:46:09 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 02:46:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilHfhRqXGcpwflzlJWdSssX0Av5g9hlYSAmCWpq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
	<4BF1B205.60608@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimVCFPBWKvd8magZbqL6v9CGMOJMMsEi0pnSHkt@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilHfhRqXGcpwflzlJWdSssX0Av5g9hlYSAmCWpq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF1E351.7000500@libero.it>



Il 18/05/2010 0.33, Jeff Davis ha scritto:
> I have a slightly different take on this.
>
> First, the go-no go, suspend or not suspend issue.  Someone said
> legalities **DO** matter.  I agree.  If Alcor doesn't freeze the
> putrefied remnant of Mr. Richardson's brain/head, then they seem to
> leave themselves open to charges of fraud, breach of contract, or
> perhaps something else.  So they've gotta freeze.  And of course no
> refund to the surviving family.  Cannot let that precedent stand.
> Cannot allow others to think they can get away with doing the same.

IANAL, my opinion is that if Alcor didn't dug and preserve they would
jeopardize their status of entity legally recognized to be able to 
receive anatomic gifts. The pertinent law used to accommodate cryonics 
is this, from what I red.

Mr. Richardson legally gifted his anatomical parts to Alcor.
So these parts are Alcor property.
This risk is that not upholding their rights to claim the head of Mr. 
Robinson they would be open to other legal attacks in future cases.

Mirco
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Nessun virus nel messaggio in uscita.
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Versione: 9.0.819 / Database dei virus: 271.1.1/2879 -  Data di rilascio: 05/17/10 08:26:00

From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue May 18 00:55:34 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:55:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism: Better thinking about	issues
In-Reply-To: <4BF1E08A.8050708@mac.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<4BF1E08A.8050708@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20100517205534.d9ecz1r8740gk4oo@webmail.natasha.cc>

Samantha wrote:

> So-called "denialism" seems in part a weapon to silence or demean
> critics event when there arguments have considerable merit.

In this vein, it serves as a tool.

Quoting samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:

> Natasha Vita-More wrote:
>> Transhumanists can help to fill the gap between living in denial   
>> and living with knowledge.  There are many transhumanist papers and  
>>  articles that address how to think intelligently and why rational   
>> is necessary.  This is a reminder that we need more exposure in   
>> this area:
>> http://www.newscientist.com/special/living-in-denial

>
> - samantha





From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 01:04:39 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:04:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <21CF3FFC277441ACA6AA18288F2CB3FE@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTiloOaClMfOHP2HG-AWpeOX0eqseTbl9rupK11oa@mail.gmail.com><4BF1DAC0.2060207@mac.com>
	<21CF3FFC277441ACA6AA18288F2CB3FE@spike>
Message-ID: <A159D13ABCA54998B089E36EB7E0CE36@spike>

 
________________________________

...On Behalf Of spike
>... 	Has anyone here buddies that work for Alcor?...	spike

Actually, I do have at least two friends who work for Alcor, altho I myself
am not currently signed up.  I might skip over myself and sign up my son.
He is a much nicer lad than I am.

Imagine yourself working at Alcor.  I guess I would have said "While fully
recognizing the absurdity and bad PR potential of digging, we signed a
contract, and now we hafta do what we hafta do.  Let us impose a reasonable
time limit in the future, such as 30 hours after clinical death."

What would you have said?  Why?

Offer regarding sock puppets in the matrix: if anyone here wants to make a
comment but wants to maintain anonymity, I do understand, you need not
explain why.  If you wish, you many post me any position or comment, I will
assign it an identity and remove all reference to you, post then erase the
original comment, then forget who sent it to me.  

Forgetting who sent what is becoming easier for me every day.  {8-[  {8^D

If you are not comfortable with that level of anonymity, I can arrange to
have you post it to a third person who doesn't read ExI and doesn't know or
care what we discuss here, then she can anonymize your comments, and agree
to not tell me or anyone who sent what, then forward to me.  I have known
this person since we were teenagers, and I know her to be as honest as the
hammer and as reliable as the anvil.  Or you can have a trusted friend (who
we don't know) forward the comment.

Reason to offer anonymity: I can imagine there may have been internal
dissent in Alcor itself on this case.  It would be very interesting to hear
their insights and motives.  

Another reason: I can imagine if one has friends in Alcor, one might wish to
not hurt their feelings by criticizing what they did.

Another reason: if one is a true believer in cryonics, I can see why one
would be reluctant to annoy the persons to whom you entrust your future.

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 01:19:21 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:19:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
...
> 
> My two cents: If the mind is quantum mechanical, then there 
> is not much hope for the guy, but there might not have been 
> anyway. on the other hand, if the mind is no more than the...

Avant, which quadrant and why?  Offlist OK if you want to be anonymous.
Imagine yourself as having been drafted as Benevolent Dictator of Alcor with
absolute power.  What would you have done?  Reasoning?

spike







From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue May 18 01:18:28 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:18:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <62B6936A13B54122A84EACC872E2312F@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F66F4E5FAAE41AFA6A95445873C756E@spike>
	<62B6936A13B54122A84EACC872E2312F@spike>
Message-ID: <201005180123.o4I1NtFg020799@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Quad 1) refund, no dig
>Quad 2) no refund, no dig
>Quad 3) refund, dig
>Quad 4) no refund, dig.
         :
>Adrian, David Lubkin I can't tell from your responses which quadrant you
>chose.  Where, me lads, and why?

I think that any of the quadrants are malignable by someone
intent on smearing Alcor.

Quad 3 makes no sense to me at all.

Quad 4 follows the contractual commitment, which I like.

Quad 2 is greedy, but may be appropriate.

Quad 1 rewards his family's bad acts.

As I recall, the lengthy Alcor contract asks the member what should
be done with his allocated funds if suspension is not possible (e.g.,
if the body has been cremated). That would be a new quadrant.

If Alcor's scientific and suspension teams believe that there is
enough left to make suspension worthwhile, they should go with
Quad 4.

If they won't know until they look at the corpse, again Quad 4,
in order to make that assessment.

If Alcor believes that information-theoretic death has been reached,
then they should see if the suspension contract called for preservation
of whatever tissue and DNA is left. If so, Quad 4.

If not, take out reasonable expenses incurred, including any costs of
litigation and exhumation, and direct the residual funds as designated
in the contract.

If no destination was set for residual funds, or it is not possible to
transfer the funds as requested, then Alcor should use its best
judgment for what to do with the money. If it were me, I'd be fine with
applying the money to Alcor's research program or to assisting
other members, e.g., paying the cost of a standby team for a member
who hadn't funded it.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 01:27:19 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:27:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1E1CD.2000700@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1E1CD.2000700@mac.com>
Message-ID: <19367AF4772A45BBA52527CBB1F75709@spike>

...On Behalf Of samantha
...	  

	>I choose quadrant 2.  Alcor was prevented from fulfilling the
letter of the contract but was guilty of no sort of breach of contract.  The
contract should / could be written so there is no refund except by the
express wishes of the person that made the contract.   No refund except in
express circumstances is not uncommon.  The dig was pointless, emotionally
punitive and bad PR.  - samantha


OK cool thanks.  I would agree with everything except that Alcor might have
been legally bound to carry out this pointless, emotionally punitive, bad PR
act.  I am no legal expert, and agree that in the future, cryonics contracts
should cover this eventuality.  In any case, this is most unfortunate.

OK, so now I have:

> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund,

Quad 1) 	spike's 3rd 

Quad 2)	BillK?, spike's 2nd, Damien, Samantha

Quad 3)	Tim Halterman's 2nd

Quad 4)	Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff
Davis,  Stefano(?)


Reasoning:

Quad 1, for:  	best for Alcor PR.  ref: ? 

Quad 1, against:  motivates relatives to burn or bury you. ref: spike


Quad 2, for:   	better PR for Alcor than 4.  ref. BillK, Damien, Samantha.

Quad 2, against:	breaks contract, opens Alcor to liability.  ref.
Jeff Davis(?)


Quad 3, for:	help me here.

Quad 3, against:	Alcor goes broke, risks the currently suspended.
ref. spike


Quad 4, for:	Alcor carries out what it agreed to do contractually.  refs:
Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff Davis,
Stefano(?)

Quad 4, against:	bad PR for Alcor, hopeless for the patient, silly,
gross, etc.  refs:  Damien, BillK(?), Samantha

	
	
	




From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 01:48:50 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:48:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <201005180123.o4I1NtFg020799@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><7F66F4E5FAAE41AFA6A95445873C756E@spike><62B6936A13B54122A84EACC872E2312F@spike>
	<201005180123.o4I1NtFg020799@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <38DD85A7E65A41CB8E48A53C20AE3411@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of David Lubkin
...
> 
> Spike wrote:
> 
> >Quad 1) refund, no dig
> >Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> >Quad 3) refund, dig
> >Quad 4) no refund, dig.
>          :

> I think that any of the quadrants are malignable by someone 
> intent on smearing Alcor...

Exactly!  And I don't think any of us really want to do that.  Alcor was
faced with a tough situation in which there were no really good answers.  It
looks to me like they did the best they could with a bad situation.  Your
observation is exactly why I am taking such pains with this thread.

> Quad 3 makes no sense to me at all.
> 
> Quad 4 follows the contractual commitment, which I like.
> 
> Quad 2 is greedy, but may be appropriate.
> 
> Quad 1 rewards his family's bad acts...

OK, so I will put you down as a quad 4er, with a second choice as quad 2er.
Fair enough, and well said.


> 
> As I recall, the lengthy Alcor contract asks the member what 
> should be done with his allocated funds if suspension is not 
> possible (e.g., if the body has been cremated). That would be 
> a new quadrant...

Ja, but this is one of those in-between cases.  Suspension in this case is
*possible* even if completely pointless and grotesque.

> 
> If Alcor's scientific and suspension teams believe that there 
> is enough left to make suspension worthwhile, they should go 
> with Quad 4...

Ja of course that opens up a whole nuther area: is Alcor to make the
decision?  Alonse?  Do they answer to anyone?  To the family, who may be
squicked by the whole thing?  Is Alcor in any better legal postion with that
than they are in this case?

> 
> If they won't know until they look at the corpse, again Quad 
> 4, in order to make that assessment...

Ja, see above.

> 
> If Alcor believes that information-theoretic death has been...

Alcor's call again?  See above.

> 
> If not, take out reasonable expenses incurred, including any 
> costs of litigation and exhumation, and direct the residual 
> funds as designated in the contract...-- David.

Ja, so Alcor's call on deciding reasonable expenses?  Do they answer to the
family?  A family who may be, rather is likely to be legally hostile to
Alcor?

Thanks for the input David!  Ill fill you in as a 4.

spike






From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue May 18 02:35:18 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:35:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics
Message-ID: <AANLkTimHQL5OfTN7U-Xn59pd8v-s89_J2CdVr-_APjty@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 7:16 PM,  Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

snip
>
> Sadly, it appears Mr. Richardson blew it. ?Anyone hoping to get a good
> suspension needs to learn from his tragic lapse of judgment.

That's true, but it there is also a defect in the Alcor contract that
encourages this kind of behavior on the part of families.

I wrote about this on the Cryonet mailing list in Feb:

*********

Some of the recent problem with suspensions may be coming from
relatives having a financial incentive to block suspensions.

If we think about it, most of us have a relative hostile to cryonics
who could be in a place to block a suspension depending on who died
first.

I think the section of the contract that specifies where the
suspension funding goes needs to be modified.  In fact I am going to
do this myself soon as I can get it worded correctly

Delete the section about who gets the funding if an Alcor member is
not suspended with this.
***********
In the event a suspension cannot be performed, (lost at sea, WTC
collapse, etc.) Alcor is still the beneficiary of the suspension
funding.  In such cases, Alcor may at its sole discretion pay part or
all of the suspension funding to a person or persons named here or to
the estate of the member.

(name of person, persons)

Alcor is forbidden to pay any part of the suspension funding to a
person or persons who have interfered with the member's prompt
suspension.

************

Keith
.



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue May 18 02:44:14 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:44:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <38DD85A7E65A41CB8E48A53C20AE3411@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F66F4E5FAAE41AFA6A95445873C756E@spike>
	<62B6936A13B54122A84EACC872E2312F@spike>
	<201005180123.o4I1NtFg020799@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<38DD85A7E65A41CB8E48A53C20AE3411@spike>
Message-ID: <201005180247.o4I2l5Wl007194@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Ja of course that opens up a whole nuther area: is Alcor to make the
>decision?  Alonse?  Do they answer to anyone?  To the family, who may be
>squicked by the whole thing?

This is an odd corner of the law. Alcor uses a lengthy contract but
also relies on organ donation law. Under the former, the contract
terms would apply. Under the latter, these are all Alcor's decisions.
AFAIK, there's never been a court case to sort out any apparent
conflicts between the two.

I don't know what the current contract looks like. But the one I'm
familiar with asked *a lot* of questions about the member's wishes,
so that Alcor can do what the member wants. It's expected that it
will take a member weeks or months to think through his answers.
It is also made clear what Alcor will do absent instructions from the
member.

>Thanks for the input David!  Ill fill you in as a 4.

That's fine for the sake of your tally, but my answer is the algorithm
I laid out, which yields 4 only some of the time.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 03:03:35 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:03:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <201005180247.o4I2l5Wl007194@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><7F66F4E5FAAE41AFA6A95445873C756E@spike><62B6936A13B54122A84EACC872E2312F@spike><201005180123.o4I1NtFg020799@andromeda.ziaspace.com><38DD85A7E65A41CB8E48A53C20AE3411@spike>
	<201005180247.o4I2l5Wl007194@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7AFDD8D05D7942B89DA33D2EB594129D@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of David Lubkin
> ...
> 
> >Thanks for the input David!  Ill fill you in as a 4.
> 
> That's fine for the sake of your tally, but my answer is the 
> algorithm I laid out, which yields 4 only some of the time.
> 
> 
> -- David.


Ja, acknowledged that it is an oversimplification that loses some
information.  It looked like 4 was the most likely outcome from your
description.  For this iteration, we only need a first choice, and a second
if you wish.  I was hoping someone would attempt a defense of quad 1 or quad
3, even if done as Simplicio.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 02:53:03 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:53:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimHQL5OfTN7U-Xn59pd8v-s89_J2CdVr-_APjty@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimHQL5OfTN7U-Xn59pd8v-s89_J2CdVr-_APjty@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20268D7D44AF4ADFB536BB909F1C1E99@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of Keith Henson
...
> 
> I wrote about this on the Cryonet mailing list in Feb:
> ********* 
> ...

Cryonet!  I forgot about that outfit.  Keith, do feel free to invite anyone
there to post here, or forward our discussion to them if you wish.  Rather I
should ask, is anyone here who posted anything opposed to Keith forwarding
it on to cryonet?  Does Tanya Jones hang out on cryonet these days?

> ***********
> In the event a suspension cannot be performed, (lost at sea, 
> WTC collapse, etc.) Alcor is still the beneficiary of the 
> suspension funding. ... Keith
> .

Keith I see your reasoning, but this is not *exactly* one of those cases
where a suspension *cannot* be performed.  It *can* be, even if it is
pointless in the mind of even the most hardcore optimist.  Every
cryo-contract should have a time limit, and some kind of language explaining
what is to happen if it isn't clear how long the patient has been clinically
expired.

Keith, you are one of those I was hoping to hear from, being a long-time
cryonics follower, so your opinion carries a lot of weight.  Where shall I
put you in the 2x2 matrix sir?  Shall we pose the question to Ralph and
Carol?  Cryonics parties at their house were always a kick back in the 90s.

spike



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue May 18 03:50:00 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 05:50:00 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
In-Reply-To: <3D7F49A9253A4CE88DDF9AC67FE5E0FB@spike>
References: <3D7F49A9253A4CE88DDF9AC67FE5E0FB@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005180212230.5431@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 17 May 2010, spike wrote:

> Friends,
>  
[...]
> Question please: if you wished to explain your native culture to someone
> outside, which book would you recommend and why?  This question is not what
> is your favorite book, or what explains transhumanism etc.  Rather, if you
> wanted to explain your native land and culture for instance, which book or
> which author?  Tomasz for instance, would you recommend Michener's Poland?

Man, do you really want me to answer? You know I am a bit talkative, don't 
you :-).

In case you cannot read anymore, try to skip down to the "Summary" line.

I cannot give Michener the wholehearted recommendation, simply because I 
didn't know about him until last week. I hope placing Vienna in Poland was 
your mistake and not his :-). From wikiquotes, it seems a book is well 
written and the writer looks interesting, maybe I will be able to grab him 
somewhere and give him a try.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Michener#Poland_.281983.29

Personally I feel a bit wary of foreign writers describing Poland. On the 
one hand, it can be an eye opener for a Pole to read it and see himself 
from the outside. On the other hand, well... I remember reading about some 
s-f saga in wikipedia. The aliens invaded Earth during WW2, starting in 
Central Europe and, well, have been fought not only by German Wehrmacht 
and Soviet Red Army but by Jewish partisans, too. While there was some 
limited effort that could be called as Jewish resistance, in reality one 
of the biggest of such movements (3rd after Yugoslovians and Russians) was 
Polish Home Army, about 400,000 people. So, you know, someone who reads 
only s-f, could be left with... interesting impressions, to say the least.

The goal of naming just one book that has it all is really hard. Poland is 
multifaceted country and during ages have been changing a lot. Much easier 
would be forming a short list of nominees and naming a winner, just like 
they do with Oscars.

Here it is. An author, "a Polish title" ("an English title" mostly from 
wikipedia or my own translation if I couldn't find it) - some blahblah.
 = when the action takes place?

1. Henryk Sienkiewicz, "Krzyzacy" ("Teutonic Knights") - an account of 
fighting with, you guessed it, Teutonic Knights, and beginnings of the 
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. And some tragic romance.
 = beg. of 15th century

2. Henryk Sienkiewicz, so called "Trylogia" - "Ogniem i mieczem", "Potop", 
"Pan Wolodyjowski" ("Trilogy": "With fire and sword", "The Deluge", "Fire 
in the Steppe") - lotsa fighting with lotsa enemies (Cossacks, Swedes, 
Ottomans, maybe some other too) is a background for some romantic etc 
histories. Since the background is rather bloody one, this is recommended 
for veteran Poland lovers. Some impalement from time to time. Other 
tortures, too. Killing is refreshing.
 = sec. half of 17th century

3. Stefan Zeromski, "Popioly" ("Ashes") - can be compared to "War and 
Peace" (by Tolstoy, not by Woody Allen ;-) ), the main character develops 
himself while at the same time being a witness to Napoleonic era, up to 
beginning of Napoleon's unfortunate war with Russian Empire.
 = beg. of 19th cent.

4. Aleksander Fredro, "Trzy po trzy" ("Topsy Turvy Talk") - memoirs of a 
writer, describing his experiences during Napoleonic Wars.
 = beg of 19th cent.

5. Wladyslaw Reymont, "Chlopi" ("The Peasants") - deals with everyday 
life and conflicts in the Polish village located somewhere in what is now 
central Poland. Everything goes by rhythms made by a slowly cycling (as 
seasons go by) nature.
 = sec. half of 19th cent.

6. Wladyslaw Reymont, "Ziemia obiecana" ("The Promised Land") - forming of 
young capitalism during industrialisation in the city of Lodz.
 = sec. half of 19th cent.

7. Boleslaw Prus, "Lalka" ("The Doll") - a social panorama of Poland under 
Russian partition. Developing of big money and lots of interactions.
 = ca. 1875-1890

8. Stefan Zeromski, "Ludzie bezdomni" ("Homeless people") - Tomasz Judym, 
MD, chooses to sacrifice his personal happiness with intention of totally 
dedicating himself to helping the poor and the helpless.
 = 19th/20th cent.

9. Stefan Zeromski, "Przedwiosnie" ("A spring to come") - young man 
(inspired by his father tales) goes from living in Baku, Russia to living 
in Poland, at the same time becoming disillusioned with his new homeland 
and coming closer and closer to bolshevism.
 = years 1914-1924

10. Tadeusz Dolega-Mostowicz, "Kariera Nikodema Dyzmy" ("The Career of 
Nicodemus Dyzma") - in interbellum Poland, primitive guy is promoted up to 
the highest ranks in the country, mostly thanks to luck and connections. A 
political satire, kind of. Worth noting, perhaps, is the number of similar 
guys in nowadays Polish politics and business (not big, but still more 
than nothing).
 = years 1925-1930 (?)

11. Sergiusz Piasecki, "Kochanek Wielkiej Niedzwiedzicy" ("The lover of 
Ursa Major") - based on his own expieriences as smuggler, he paints a 
vivid picture of Polish-Soviet border and people living on both sides of 
it.
 = years ca. 1925-1930

12. Sergiusz Piasecki, "Zapiski oficera Armii Czerwonej" ("The memoirs of 
a Red Army officer") - partially a parody and partially a farse, 
fictionised memoirs of Red Army officer giving his view of Polish Wilno 
(now Vilnius) under Soviet occupation and few years later. After 
witnessing atrocities of early soviet life, Piasecki himself became 
strongly antibolshevik and so maybe (or maybe not) some parts of this book 
are a bit too well colored. But, on the other hand, I believe he didn't 
really made this all up. The book shows both a life in Polish part of 
Lithuania as well as, by contrast, pre-war life in Soviet Union.
 = years 1939-1945

13. Roman Bratny, "Kolumbowie. Rocznik 20" (??? - say, "Columbuses born in 
1920", probably not translated to English) - describes the lives (and 
deaths) of a group of twenty-something years old Home Army members. They 
were later named as Generation of Columbuses
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_of_Columbuses
 = years 1942-1948

14. Marek Hlasko - various books like "Osmy dzien tygodnia" (?? - "Eight 
day of the week") or "Nastepny do raju" (?? - "Next one to Paradise") give 
some insights about life in Poland not very long after WW2.
 = years ca. 1950-1955

As of books describing more contemporary Poland, I am undecided at all. Of 
those that I've read, none can make it to this list. I suspect their 
authors don't know the art of writing. But maybe it will be clear, one day 
in the future, that they were great innovators. Hopefully not. I was 
mostly in various stages of disgust after reading them.

So, a Summary :-).

As I have written above, it is really really hard to choose the one book. 
I believe, if one's goal is to better understand Poland, then one should 
read more than just one book. Some of them have been translated into 
English (and if not English, there could be German, Russian or French 
translation, with my feel German and Russian should be preferred). Some of 
them are available on the net for free, both originals and translations. 
And some of them have made it to the films. I am not for substituting 
books by films, but if you have no better choice...

But, anyway...

In a category of "just one book", the Oscar goes to "Lalka" ("The Doll") 
by Boleslaw Prus. Truly great. Mostly overlooked, I think. While it may 
seem to be a romance set up in historic decorations, it happens to 
describe a number of "typical" Poles, their aspirations (or lack of them), 
pictures society as a whole. Czeslaw Milosz, a Nobel laureate, expressed 
similar opinion about this book, so I am in a good company :-). The times 
during which an action takes place were a times of big change for Poles, 
this is when we switched from being "sabre users" into being "logarithm 
users".

In a category of "just one writer", I give Oscar to Sergiusz Piasecki. He 
was a very unusual person. He himself learned literary Polish as an adult, 
while serving his sentence after being a smuggler, an intelligence officer 
and a mugger. He had been paroled by our president after his books became 
bestsellers in a pre-war Poland. During WW2, he was in Polish resistance. 
After the war, he was hiding from communists for some time and then 
smuggled himself to Italy. The rest of his life he spent in England and 
was rather poor. Died in London. Great and brave individualist, one that 
you would rather have with you and not against. Alas, the world promotes 
ass lickers. He deserved a better planet. And he wrote very interesting 
books, describing our eastern borders. I believe, they mirror his 
independent spirit. Definitely worth reading.

Post-Summary.

As a distinct category, there is also poetry. While not giving too many 
descriptions by itself, it may serve as a means to get inside Polish 
minds. Or hearts. Whatever. Let's be brief this time:

- Jan Kochanowski, Polish Reneissance, 16th cent (1530-1584)
- Krzysztof Kamil Baczynski, of Polish Columbuses, (1921-1944)
- Zbigniew Herbert, with his poetry stemming from humanistic ideals and 
antique/classicist tradition - a great read (1924-1998)

There are some translations available, seek the links on wikipedia.

> USians, you get to play too.  Personally I am a huge fan of Steinbeck, but
> his stuff is dated now, having pretty much ended in the 1960s.  His Travels
> With Charley is a great 1960s book.

As non-USian, I was impressed by Jonh dos Passos' "The 42nd Parallel". 
Perhaps in English it would not have been so great, but Polish edition had 
been accompanied with lots of footnotes (summing up to perhaps 1/3 or 
maybe even 1/2 of the book) that gave me this bigger picture. Not a photo, 
but definitely a better understanding (for a while, that I managed to 
remember them, at least).

I think I should find the time for "Manhattan tranfer" by the same author. 
And for Mark Twain.

> Websites are OK too, in fact preferrable in some important ways.

While doing quick research to write this email, I have stumbled upon 
Sarmatian Review, which deals with issues related to Central Europe (and 
there is a lot about Polish literature and other stuff).

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue May 18 04:16:18 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:16:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 6:24 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> .... the corpses of Eva Peron and Lenin, who were so well embalmed that they showed no signs of putrefecation years after they died."

Hot damn! Daniel.  Thank you.  I hadn't thought along those lines at
all -- chemical fixation by formaldehyde -- but of course, you're
right.

Chemical fixation and dessication/drying have on occasion be suggested
as alternatives to low temp (ie cryo) preservation.  But little
discussion has followed, for whatever reason.  I suspect because we
already have a method and an implementing infrastructure.  Buy it
seems eminently  reasonable to ask about the comparative pros and cons
of all preservation methods.

But, bottom line is, as you note, if Mr. Richardsons's brain has been
adequately preserved, by whatever means, then he's still in the game.
Hurrah!  I really feel a lot better about this now.

We would all do well to remember three words: information theoretic death.

> he would have been better off if some shred of his living tissue had been frozen down for potentially cloning him a new body,?etc.

I think his DNA is still recoverable (If dna can be recovered from
dinosaurs, wooly mammoths, etc...).

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                        Ray Charles



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue May 18 04:16:46 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:16:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005180212230.5431@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <3D7F49A9253A4CE88DDF9AC67FE5E0FB@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005180212230.5431@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <4BF214AE.8040605@satx.rr.com>

On 5/17/2010 10:50 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:

<lots of good stuff>

In my ignorance of all those writers and books, I am tempted to suggest 
as well Stanislaw Lem's HOSPITAL OF THE TRANSFIGURATION. Here's my 
comments on the book from my study TRANSREALIST FICTION:

<In his first published novel, Hospital of the Transfiguration,
Lem?s beautifully observed vignettes fold together, with exquisite 
placement,
like the elements of a ritual, perhaps an exorcism, holding the past
even as it purges its unbearable grief. This is territory trodden more
recently, of course, by such writers as D. M. Thomas and Martin Amis,
using much the same transgressive apparatus.

Stefan Trzyiecki, like Lem himself at the time a student doctor (though
slightly older, so that he begins his practice in wartime), attends an 
uncle?s
funeral in a village where his family have been minor notables for
centuries. As distant and alienated from his kin as Joyce?s Stephen 
Dedalus,
Stefan watches the obsequies with a certain distaste: all this confused
bustle of life, family politics, evasion and warmth. By the novel?s
end, Stefan is lying in the arms of a cool, lovely woman whose name he
does not know, in the hay of a stable, ?as blank and empty as the moment
of his birth? (p. 207). That journey to nativity is Poland?s funeral 
rites as well,
his nation?s uncertain rebirth into a condition of internal exile that 
it took
fifty years to challenge.

Although Hospital of the Transfiguration was completed in 1948, it was
not published until 1955?victim of the hegemony of ?socialist realism??
nor translated into English until the late 1980s with the fall of the
Soviet system. Yet it is not easy for us to see what the Polish communist
authorities found technically offensive in the book, which evades realism
only in its structure, and then only to the attuned eye. Even in his 
twenties,
though, Lem was clearly struggling with those questions of form
and narrative strategy that were to turn him away from the quotidian
and into landscapes of the cognitive imagination. More recently he has
written: ?Those days have pulverised and exploded all narrative conventions
that had previously been used in literature. The unfathomable
futility of human life under the sway of mass murder cannot be conveyed
by literary techniques in which individuals or small groups form
the core of the narrative.?

If Thomas Mann found a tuberculosis clinic an apt metaphor for the
decline of the West, many writers since have looked to a more extreme
figure: the lunatic asylum, the cuckoo?s nest. Almost by accident Stefan
takes a job in a mental hospital named, with grotesque irony, for Christ
in his transfigured state after the resurrection. There is little enough 
hope
of rebirth for these poor souls. In the era before sophisticated 
psychoactive
medication, Lem?s site is the customary Bedlam of heedless, untrained
orderlies and medical staff themselves on the verge of craziness.
Each is sketched with precision and wit as Lem puts his carnival through
its paces before the authentic madness begins, when the SS arrive to
murder the doctors? charges, those supposedly less-than-human victims
of disease, stress and the accidents of genetics.

At the heart of the novel is a truly horrifying Foucauldian rebus of the
whole, a clinically described operation to remove a tumor from the brain
of a patient who has been deteriorating under the enthralled gaze of his
surgeon. Kauters (a suitable emblematic name) is the sole German physician
among these Poles, destined to cower and blubber before his triumphant
countrymen. At the operating table he delves and tears into
the naked brain like a mining engineer dredging a sacred site, scorching
tissue when an artery is cut, scooping out the cancer until, to his 
exasperation,
the patient lies dead. Beyond the walls of the asylum, in a local
power station, Polish patriots smuggle arms to partisans and brood upon
the bodies of suicides charred black by electricity. Lem?s world in this
apparently realist first novel is at once pitiless and aching with pity, a
small gem of a book gleaming across the decades like a drop of blood
caught in a spotlight.>

Damien Broderick


From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue May 18 04:49:44 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:49:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism: Better thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <4BF1E1C7.8060306@gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<4BF1E1C7.8060306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5914B59C268C4D7B9DEF471F6C3ACEEB@DFC68LF1>

Some quick links ...
 
http://jetpress.org/v21/more.htm
http://www.maxmore.com/pcr.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1591022274/xeromagazine
http://www.optimal.org/peter/rational_ethics.htm
http://strategicphilosophy.blogspot.com/2008/05/doctor-who-deontologist-or.h
tml
http://lesswrong.com/
http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/9607more.html
 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 

  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of AlgaeNymph
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 7:40 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism: Better thinking about
issues


Natasha Vita-More wrote: 

There are many transhumanist papers and articles that address how to think
intelligently and why rational is necessary.

Where can I find them?

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 05:19:00 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:19:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C4580C5A7BA49178F5EB8D7F34CAEE9@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
> 
> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 6:24 PM, The Avantguardian 
> <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > .... the corpses of Eva Peron and Lenin, who were so well 
> embalmed that they showed no signs of putrefecation years 
> after they died."
> 
> Hot damn! Daniel.  Thank you.  I hadn't thought along those 
> lines at all -- chemical fixation by formaldehyde -- but of 
> course, you're right...
> Chemical fixation and dessication/drying have on occasion be 
> suggested as alternatives to low temp (ie cryo) preservation. 

...
Ja, if there is any merit to it at all, a few dozen gallons of formaldehyde
would be muuuch cheaper than liquid nitrogen.  I can imagine a scenario
where the notion of formaldehyde preservation has not been seriously
revisited since the late 1980s when the K.Eric's work caused many to take
seriously for the first time the notion of cryonics.

Perhaps early cryonicists were still under the hopeless notion that the meat
itself would somehow be revived.  Clearly any formaldehyde soaked brain
would no longer think, now or forever.  But if nanobots are used to read the
configuration of the brain, then it is at least vaguely conceivable that a
formaldehyde preserved brain could be read and simulated in software.

Keith, does the cryonet crowd ever talk about formaldehyde preservation?  Is
there some intermediate stage, such as formaldehyde at -30C?  How about
formaldehyde preservation in the short term, for a few days, until the Alcor
team can get assembled?  Could we use formaldehyde in the home of the
patient in the short term, lower the temp to about -85C (formaldehyde
freezes at about -90) after which the Alcor team could arrive and replace
the formaldehyde with first cold freon, then liquid nitrogen?  Or just keep
the patient at -85C in formaldehyde, and tolerate the thermal damage over
time?  Or keep the patient in a formaldehyde filled seal-a-meal bag
submerged in a mixture of freon 22 and methane?  Or the formaldehyde
submerged in pure freon 22 at about a quarter of an atmosphere, so that the
freon keeps the formaldehyde patient in a seal-a-meal at about -80C, inside
a closed system?

Reasoning: if you go with the -80ish temps, the surface area of the
preservation container isn't nearly as critical as with the -196 nitrogen.
The energy to maintain would be about a quarter as much, ja?

Keith how much do the cryonet people talk about alternatives to the
traditional liquid nitrogen in a dewar?

> 
> ... Hurrah!  I really feel a lot better about this now...

Ok good, now we have seven reluctant quad 4ers and one cheerful 4er.  {8^D

Jeff your optimism is refreshing.  I consider the quad 4 outcome as a black
eye for cryonics in general, but I sure can't figure out what the hell Alcor
could have done any differently under these difficult circumstances.  Tanya
and colleagues, we are behind you, and cheering still.  Alcor just didn't
have any good options in this painful case.  Most of the blame is on Mr.
Richardson's family, with the rest of it being on Mr. Richardson, for not
alerting Alcor as to his difficult situation.  Do let us hope we have
learned from this unfortunate episode, and may we as a species improve and
advance from this tragedy.

spike





From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 05:20:46 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:20:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF223AE.7090706@mac.com>

Jeff Davis wrote:
> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 6:24 PM, The Avantguardian
> <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> .... the corpses of Eva Peron and Lenin, who were so well embalmed that they showed no signs of putrefecation years after they died."
>>     
>
> Hot damn! Daniel.  Thank you.  I hadn't thought along those lines at
> all -- chemical fixation by formaldehyde -- but of course, you're
> right.
>
> Chemical fixation and dessication/drying have on occasion be suggested
> as alternatives to low temp (ie cryo) preservation.  
If either of those were as or more likely to preserve brain tissue I am 
sure they would be used.   I would especially doubt that dessication is 
good for the brain.

> But little
> discussion has followed, for whatever reason.  I suspect because we
> already have a method and an implementing infrastructure.  

Either of these would probably be cheaper so any pragmatic argument is  
rather doubtful.  Also that infrastructure was built to support the best 
known method and it is quite thin on the ground. It is not like we are 
talking a global network using current methods.  :)

> Buy it
> seems eminently  reasonable to ask about the comparative pros and cons
> of all preservation methods.
>
> But, bottom line is, as you note, if Mr. Richardsons's brain has been
> adequately preserved, by whatever means, then he's still in the game.
> Hurrah!  I really feel a lot better about this now.
>
>   
He was thrown into the ground for a year.  What part of that leads you 
to believe his brain structure would be at all intact?

> We would all do well to remember three words: information theoretic death.
>   

What do you suppose that means in the case of information solely encoded 
in the tissue of a living brain? 

>   
>> he would have been better off if some shred of his living tissue had been frozen down for potentially cloning him a new body, etc.
>>     
>
>   
There would be no "him" for or appreciating this body.  Only some new 
person with the same DNA. 

> I think his DNA is still recoverable (If dna can be recovered from
> dinosaurs, wooly mammoths, etc...).
>   

Sure, but so what? 

- samantha
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue May 18 04:59:32 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <62B6936A13B54122A84EACC872E2312F@spike>
Message-ID: <435411.18796.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 5/17/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Adrian, David Lubkin I can't tell from your responses which
> quadrant you
> chose.? Where, me lads, and why?

Quadrant 4, for the same reasons others have given.  Bad PR
or no, a contract is a contract, so long as there is a body
to freeze.  (The cremation example would entirely prevent
fulfillment.)



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 05:35:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:35:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <2C4580C5A7BA49178F5EB8D7F34CAEE9@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>
	<2C4580C5A7BA49178F5EB8D7F34CAEE9@spike>
Message-ID: <ADA47402538342BC9EF02A19F6FC741C@spike>

 

A missive from our long time absent friend Brent Allsop, who is having
trouble posting to ExI-chat.  Brent I checked your membership and it shows
everything is fine.  Do check your end; perhaps the server is filtering us
for some reason, or ask someone who actually knows something about internet
protocols, such as our highly esteemed john at ziaspace.com.  You checked your
filter, ja? to insure that some yahoo or concerned mo-bot didn't
surreptitiously arrange to send all ExI-chat outgoing mail to the spam
bucket?  Brent, we wondered where the heck you have been for the past long
time.

Here's Brent:


===============================


Spike,

Thank you so much, everyone, for making such a big deal about all this, and
for collecting these survey results.

This is all very difficult for me.  I first saw this story in the paper the
other morning, and have been crying ever since.  This is very relevent to
me, because this kind of family behavior is precisely what my entire
religious mo-bot family seems to be communicating to me, they will end up
doing.  (Not that any of them think about any of this much, or are willing
to talk about it at all.  It seems more like they are afraid to think about
it deeply, and they just mostly have ignorant knee jerk reactions and
comments - mostly based on money and fear - nothing more - it seems to me.)

Thankfully, my oldest son (now 24), and a few hints from my daughter (now
22), who were raised as mo-bots, seem to be coming around.
Finally, neither of them by into traditional Mormonism any more.  And my son
recently indicated he even supports my desire to be preserved, and is even
considering it himself - especially if I want him to be signed up.  (one of
the happiest days of my life when I found this out, along with realizing he
is finally for sure deprogramming himself and escaping the mo-bot cult
thinking - something I've been desperately working on their entire lives -
never give up! )

I pointed the article out to another family member, and they were visibly
troubled by the entire idea, and obviously didn't want to think about it.
They, in some knee jerk quick comment way, (about all I could get out of
them in any kind of intelligent discussion kind of way) that they condoned
the terrible rotting behavior of these siblings.  Then it was back in the
sand with their head, and refusal to even think or talk about it any
further.  I think they at least learned enough, thanks to what Alcor
succeeded at doing, that these siblings completely failed at what they were
attempting - so I imagine them knowing this has had an effect on whether
they might think about trying something like this in my or my son's case -
should they have the chance.

I'm very surprised that there are so many people here that think there is
such a low threshold for 'information theoretical death'.  Is there such a
clear line as this?  If one believes in cryonics, you obviously don't see a
clear line between life and death, I have a hard time understanding how even
death could ever be information theoretically complete - in any kind of hard
line way.  No matter what is saved, that is always better than nothing.  Any
and all information or memory has value.  Even having a grave, or some kind
of memorial item, that helps keep one in the memories of survivors, is
surely a great help, in addition to yet another way to communicate, clearly,
how much one wants to live and to save as much as possible of all loved
ones, even if it isn't much at all.  A frozen dead for a long time head is
better than nothing, I think.

To me, most of doing the right thing, is knowing and valuing what ALL
concerned parties want.  To me, the goal should be to get, as much as
possible, what everyone wants.  And you can't do this without knowing what
everyone wants.  That is one of the main reasons I created canonizer.com,
because I want so desperately to know, concisely and quantitatively, as much
as possible, what everyone wants, just like this.  That is why I am so glad
that Spike is at least in a temporary, non rigorous or non definitive way
especially if someone latter changes their mind, collecting this data.  I
would give so much if more people than just me were interested in rigorously
'canonizing' this kind of data in a topic that would contain much more
definitive, detailed, quantitative and concise survey information.

Another thing that is troubling to me, is the operantly hate for the
siblings, and the apparent desire to destroy what the siblings want.
Very true that not rewarding such terrible behavior is far more important in
this case.  But I would think that getting the siblings what they want at
least deserves a mention, since we seem to be collecting all pro and con
arguments.  I believe that some day true justice might be possible.  So,
rather than just throwing the money away, part of me would hope I could get
it to them, if it could be done in some way that it doesn't promote more of
the same terrible behavior.
Then after everyone is resurected, maybe they would have to be my slave for
a million years to make a restitution for what they did to me, and to pay us
back for the refund they got?  Everyone so hating what everyone that is
different wants, and everyone trying to destroy what everyone else wants, is
what is killing us all.  I think we need to always be aware of what everyone
wants, and work to get as much of all of it as possible.  If you at least
know what everyone wants, and value it at least a little, there is a much
better chance that you might find some creative way to achieve more of it.

If it isn't clear, I'm definitely in the number 4 - never give up -
anything, no matter how small, and no matter how poorly preserved, is better
than nothing - quad.  And I think we should add the benefit to the siblings,
getting the refund, as a pro for the refund quads, if we can do so
indicating that it is much more important not to reward such terrible
behavior in this case.

Thanks!

Brent Allsop


spike wrote:
> OK, so now I have:
>
>   
>> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
>> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
>> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
>> 	Quad 4) no refund,
>>     
>
> Quad 1) 	spike's 3rd 
>
> Quad 2)	BillK?, spike's 2nd, Damien, Samantha
>
> Quad 3)	Tim Halterman's 2nd
>
> Quad 4)	Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman,
Jeff
> Davis,  Stefano(?)
>
>
> Reasoning:
>
> Quad 1, for:  	best for Alcor PR.  ref: ? 
>
> Quad 1, against:  motivates relatives to burn or bury you. ref: spike
>
>
> Quad 2, for:   	better PR for Alcor than 4.  ref. BillK, Damien,
Samantha.
>
> Quad 2, against:	breaks contract, opens Alcor to liability.  ref.
> Jeff Davis(?)
>
>
> Quad 3, for:	help me here.
>
> Quad 3, against:	Alcor goes broke, risks the currently suspended.
> ref. spike
>
>
> Quad 4, for:	Alcor carries out what it agreed to do contractually.  refs:
> Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff Davis,
> Stefano(?)
>
> Quad 4, against:	bad PR for Alcor, hopeless for the patient, silly,
> gross, etc.  refs:  Damien, BillK(?), Samantha
>
> 	



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 05:59:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:59:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <2C4580C5A7BA49178F5EB8D7F34CAEE9@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>
	<2C4580C5A7BA49178F5EB8D7F34CAEE9@spike>
Message-ID: <FBAE42638BEE45E999795F7D2C67FECE@spike>


OK, I added in Brent Allsop's insightful observations and commentary to the
score sheet.  Brent and I face similar problems: a family mostly willing,
possibly eager, to deny our dying wishes for religious reasons.  {8-[

Brent is far too nice, thinking of how to help his siblings, even if they
fail to carry out his wishes.  After I read his missive, I changed the order
of my 2nd and 3rd choices, but I may change it back to where I had it
before.  

There are two voices in particular I still haven't heard, but I will not
call out their names in case they wish to post with anonymity.  Since they
are influential types, I can imagine a good reason why they would want to
think carefully.

In any case, here is where we stand:
 
 
> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig.

Score so far:

Quad 1) 	spike's 2nd, Brent's 3rd

Quad 2)	BillK?, spike's 3rd, Damien, Samantha, David Lubkin's 2nd.

Quad 3)	Tim Halterman's 2nd, Brent's 2nd 

Quad 4)	Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff
Davis, Stefano(?), David Lubkin, Brent Allsop.

> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig

Quad 1, for:  	best for Alcor PR.  Helps the siblings of the deceased?
ref: Brent Allsop 3rd(?) 

Quad 1, against:  motivates relatives to burn or bury you. ref: spike, Brent


Quad 2, for:   	better PR for Alcor than 4.  ref: BillK, Damien, Samantha.

Quad 2, against:	breaks legally binding contract, opens Alcor to
liability.  Ref: Jeff Davis(?)


Quad 3, for:	Helps the siblings of the deceased?  Brent Allsop 2nd(?).

Quad 3, against:	Alcor goes broke, risks the currently suspended.
Might motivate the siblings to burn or bury.  Ref: spike, Brent.


Quad 4, for:	Alcor carries out what it agreed to do contractually,  Alcor
may be legally required to dig.   refs:  Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike,
Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff Davis, Stefano(?), David Lubkin, Brent
Allsop.

Quad 4, against:	bad PR for Alcor, hopeless for the patient, silly,
gross, etc.  refs:  Damien, BillK(?), Samantha




From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 08:12:06 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:12:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <ADA47402538342BC9EF02A19F6FC741C@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimZyye3Ren1yRNBY3lLUNOYw5s89J99oVbe9sRF@mail.gmail.com>
	<2C4580C5A7BA49178F5EB8D7F34CAEE9@spike>
	<ADA47402538342BC9EF02A19F6FC741C@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF24BD6.7080105@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  
>
> A missive from our long time absent friend Brent Allsop, who is having
> trouble posting to ExI-chat.  Brent I checked your membership and it shows
> everything is fine.  Do check your end; perhaps the server is filtering us
> for some reason, or ask someone who actually knows something about internet
> protocols, such as our highly esteemed john at ziaspace.com.  You checked your
> filter, ja? to insure that some yahoo or concerned mo-bot didn't
> surreptitiously arrange to send all ExI-chat outgoing mail to the spam
> bucket?  Brent, we wondered where the heck you have been for the past long
> time.
>
> Here's Brent:
>
>
> ===============================
>
>
> Spike,
>
> Thank you so much, everyone, for making such a big deal about all this, and
> for collecting these survey results.
>
> This is all very difficult for me.  I first saw this story in the paper the
> other morning, and have been crying ever since.  This is very relevent to
> me, because this kind of family behavior is precisely what my entire
> religious mo-bot family seems to be communicating to me, they will end up
> doing.  (Not that any of them think about any of this much, or are willing
> to talk about it at all.  It seems more like they are afraid to think about
> it deeply, and they just mostly have ignorant knee jerk reactions and
> comments - mostly based on money and fear - nothing more - it seems to me.)
>
> Thankfully, my oldest son (now 24), and a few hints from my daughter (now
> 22), who were raised as mo-bots, seem to be coming around.
> Finally, neither of them by into traditional Mormonism any more.  And my son
> recently indicated he even supports my desire to be preserved, and is even
> considering it himself - especially if I want him to be signed up.  (one of
> the happiest days of my life when I found this out, along with realizing he
> is finally for sure deprogramming himself and escaping the mo-bot cult
> thinking - something I've been desperately working on their entire lives -
> never give up! )
>
> I pointed the article out to another family member, and they were visibly
> troubled by the entire idea, and obviously didn't want to think about it.
> They, in some knee jerk quick comment way, (about all I could get out of
> them in any kind of intelligent discussion kind of way) that they condoned
> the terrible rotting behavior of these siblings.  Then it was back in the
> sand with their head, and refusal to even think or talk about it any
> further.  I think they at least learned enough, thanks to what Alcor
> succeeded at doing, that these siblings completely failed at what they were
> attempting - so I imagine them knowing this has had an effect on whether
> they might think about trying something like this in my or my son's case -
> should they have the chance.
>
> I'm very surprised that there are so many people here that think there is
> such a low threshold for 'information theoretical death'.
Your brain is effectively a sophisticated bio computer.  After death (if 
not before under some unfortunate conditions) all the neurons and 
synapses, all the bits of your biocomputer and their interconnections, 
die and start to deteriorate.  If something does not stop the 
deterioration very shortly after your heart stops beating all that 
complex information loses its coherence rapidly to biological decay and 
rot.   There is no escaping that this is so.  Why look what happens to a 
person from say Alzheimer's or from some brain injury.    There is no 
use pretending it is otherwise.

>   Is there such a
> clear line as this? 
Yes.

>  If one believes in cryonics, you obviously don't see a
> clear line between life and death,
False or only half true in a sense.  What medically is considered dead 
is not irretrievable death.  That only occurs after the brain has 
deteriorated to much to every be revived with the memories, personality, 
knowledge and so on of the person intact.  That is true death.  Once the 
brain state is no longer coherent it is not retrievable.  Kaput.  At 
least this side of time travel to go back and retrieve their brain state 
before this point.

>  I have a hard time understanding how even
> death could ever be information theoretically complete - in any kind of hard
> line way.
The line is above.

>   No matter what is saved, that is always better than nothing.

Nope, not if the goal is the true reanimation of that person.

>   Any
> and all information or memory has value.

There is none in a decayed brain that has been dead a year with no 
effective preservation technology applied.
 
>   Even having a grave, or some kind
> of memorial item, that helps keep one in the memories of survivors, is
> surely a great help,

Not for reanimation of that person it isn't.   Being remembered is not 
at all the same thing as living again.
>  in addition to yet another way to communicate, clearly,
> how much one wants to live and to save as much as possible of all loved
> ones, even if it isn't much at all.  A frozen dead for a long time head is
> better than nothing, I think.
>   
Not really.  It is a travesty of what could have been a real possibility 
of future life.

If the brain is effectively mush or rotted away then all the finely 
interrelated informational contents that made you you is gone, kaput.  
No amount of wishful thinking will change that.

> To me, most of doing the right thing, is knowing and valuing what ALL
> concerned parties want.

If I am taking your meaning correctly then I disagree. There is only one 
party whose wishes must be respected in death even if it is a transition 
via cryogenics to eventual reanimation. That is the person involved.  If 
we don't own our own being in this and get to say what we wish and have 
it followed to the letter as much as humanly possible, then do we have 
any freedom or self-determination at all?   Personally I would write it 
in my will that anyone that attempted to thwart my clearly expressed 
wish in this matter is immediately disowned from any inheritance 
whatsoever. 
>   To me, the goal should be to get, as much as
> possible, what everyone wants.  

What for in something as personal and singular as your demise?
> And you can't do this without knowing what
> everyone wants.  That is one of the main reasons I created canonizer.com,
> because I want so desperately to know, concisely and quantitatively, as much
> as possible, what everyone wants, just like this.

Now that you know that, what do you want and what will you insist on 
having as your right?

>   That is why I am so glad
> that Spike is at least in a temporary, non rigorous or non definitive way
> especially if someone latter changes their mind, collecting this data.  I
> would give so much if more people than just me were interested in rigorously
> 'canonizing' this kind of data in a topic that would contain much more
> definitive, detailed, quantitative and concise survey information.
>   

I am not sure a survey is all that helpful in this area but I am 
probably missing something.

> Another thing that is troubling to me, is the operantly hate for the
> siblings, and the apparent desire to destroy what the siblings want.
>   
The siblings effectively reneged on the person's express wishes 
concerning their own death.  They denied effectively their dying wish.  
This is rather contemptible.   Certainly people that act like that 
deserve no particular sympathy in the matter.

> Very true that not rewarding such terrible behavior is far more important in
> this case.
So you call their behavior "terrible" but don't think people should look 
at them with anger and contempt for doing it?

>   But I would think that getting the siblings what they want at
> least deserves a mention, since we seem to be collecting all pro and con
> arguments.

What in the hell for in such a case?
>   I believe that some day true justice might be possible.
What would that look like after they had already robbed the decease of 
any chance for future life?
>   So,
> rather than just throwing the money away, part of me would hope I could get
> it to them, if it could be done in some way that it doesn't promote more of
> the same terrible behavior.
>   

They get money the deceased wanted to go to possible more life for 
denying the deceased the opportunity?  That would be horrifically unjust.

> Then after everyone is resurected, maybe they would have to be my slave for
> a million years to make a restitution for what they did to me, and to pay us
> back for the refund they got?
Sorry Charlie.  Nothing to resurrect you from in such a case.   Perhaps 
you are thinking of religious magic rather than science.

>   Everyone so hating what everyone that is
> different wants, and everyone trying to destroy what everyone else wants, is
> what is killing us all.

That is a bit sloppy formulation.  Justice is treating people on the 
basis of how they act.   Justice in the case of reprehensible behavior 
is treating the party that engaged in the behavior with the appropriate 
level of opprobrium.

>   I think we need to always be aware of what everyone
> wants, and work to get as much of all of it as possible.

Well that is sweet sort of but just because somebody *wants* something 
doesn't mean that they are entitled to it or what they want is 
reasonable or that it is exactly as valid as anyone else wants.  All 
wants are not created equal.    If what they want is to deny another 
their dying wish, their wish for what happens when they die or what 
someone "wants" is to impose their will on another usurping their right 
to self-determination, then that *want* is contemptible and deserves 
neither respect or consideration.

>   If you at least
> know what everyone wants, and value it at least a little, there is a much
> better chance that you might find some creative way to achieve more of it.
>   
I don't value a *want* just because it is a *want*, no.   A want as such 
may be totally irrational and even, as in this case, vicious.
> If it isn't clear, I'm definitely in the number 4 - never give up -
> anything, no matter how small, and no matter how poorly preserved, is better
> than nothing - quad.  And I think we should add the benefit to the siblings,
> getting the refund, as a pro for the refund quads, if we can do so
> indicating that it is much more important not to reward such terrible
> behavior in this case.
>   

You just rewarded it.  You cannot both reward it and not reward it.

- samantha



From ddraig at gmail.com  Tue May 18 08:15:08 2010
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:15:08 +1000
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiluF6L-oaCcB4JZ-gY-KSdImegr1qPmoSrQbs6U@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/7 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>  Did you know an elephant could do this?  I had never heard of it.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk
>

I saw this on some TV program in 2000 or so, and thought OH MY GOD, another
species doing recognisable paintings! and wanted to buy one, but they very
quickly became trendy and cool and thus waaay out of my reach.

very very very impressive stuff.

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat
  ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
 http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From ddraig at gmail.com  Tue May 18 08:17:10 2010
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:17:10 +1000
Subject: [ExI] elephant painting
In-Reply-To: <4BE388C4.4000302@mac.com>
References: <1659FFA824E147BCB19662CFC9C2F416@spike> <4BE388C4.4000302@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimGhddrM5qworIxL8a3XNwEXg6rM7NouLAvKFxY@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/7 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>

 First I see a clip of a dog coming out and dragging another dog off the
> interstate and now this elephant.  Are the animals getting smarter or what?
> I can't draw and elephant that well!
>


I can draw. And I can elephant. But, yeah, I can't draw and elephant,
either.

:-)-

(I'm going to get slapped, I can just tell)

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat
  ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
 http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue May 18 08:14:59 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:14:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
Message-ID: <462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 6:19:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird

Spike wrote:

Avant, which quadrant and why?? 
> Offlist OK if you want to be anonymous.
Imagine yourself as having been 
> drafted as Benevolent Dictator of Alcor with
absolute power.? What would 
> you have done?? 
> Reasoning?

Quadrant four. Exactly what Alcor did. For several reasons.

First and foremost, it was what the customer wanted and paid me for. The customer knew that cryonics is an imperfect science and it has inherent risks associated with it. There is no guarantee of revival even in an ideally?performed preservation. With that knowledge, the man nonetheless wrote into his will that cryopreservation is what he wanted to be done to his remains. It?would be no different if?someone had contracted with?Alcor to be cremated and have his ashes scattered over?Red Light District of Amsterdam.?Even if the scattering of the ashes fulfills nothing more than?the dying man's whim,?if Alcor was contracted to do it, they?should do it.

Secondly, most cultures take great pains that funerary practices are performed according to the respective traditions. Corpses are routinely flown around the world at great expense to ensure that the proper rites are performed. For example if a Christian dies in an explosion in Afghanistan?and the only remains that are recovered are his foot, they will send his foot to the?US and hold a funeral for and bury his foot. It doesn't matter that the burial does not benefit the foot or the man it belongs to except to fulfill his desire to buried as a Christian. Why should our funerary rites hold any less weight than those other traditions? The only reason that the family did what they did was *because* they did not take cryonics seriously as a funerary tradition. It was no different than if the man had bought and paid for a casket and a burial plot and his family had instead ordered him cremated and tried to get a refund on the grave and casket. The family
 was wrong and they needed to be humbled.

Thirdly, this case needed to go to court so as to establish precedent for all future conflicts of interest between a cryonicist and his heirs. This case will be cited in future court cases of similar circumstance and now judges and attorneys have a "legal road map" to guide them. That road map did not exist before this case and it was worth the money Alcor paid to have him disinterred.

Now as to what?I would do as "Benevolent Dictator" of Alcor to prevent this kind of debacle in the future is that I would?recommend clients sign a limited power of attorney granting Alcor the right to sue?for damages, on the clients behalf, any and all relatives or medical personnel who either negligently or purposefully?interfere with timely preservation of the?client.??


?Stuart LaForge 

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert 


      




From nohone at slingshot.co.nz  Tue May 18 06:18:06 2010
From: nohone at slingshot.co.nz (nohone)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:18:06 +1200
Subject: [ExI] NonRocketLaunchTech
In-Reply-To: <4BF1E329.7080603@mac.com>
References: <41094FAD9A3B4F55BA47C24FA7A705DC@spike> <4BF1E329.7080603@mac.com>
Message-ID: <op.vcv04ga2elotyh@nikita>

On Tue, 18 May 2010 12:45:29 +1200, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> While I didn't cover solar sails some of you may enjoy or care to
> comment on my latest compilation of space related material and SL talk.
> This one was on non-rocket means of space launch.   It can be found at
> http://soft-transcend.org/Fulfillment/chatLogs/051510_NonRocketLaunchTech.htm.
>
> - samantha


Hi Samantha, just wanted to say I enjoyed your chatlog and thanks for making your talk available outside of SL for us SL phobes.

One thing I thought you could have included was the balloon assisted rocket ideas being developed, they may not pan out long term, but it does strike me as being a whole lot more practical and of achievably smaller scale than some in your talk.



 


From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 14:43:50 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:43:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>


Excellent reply Stuart, thanks! 

> ...On Behalf Of 
> The Avantguardian
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> > From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> > To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 6:19:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
> 
> Spike wrote:
> 
> Avant, which quadrant and why??
> 
> Quadrant four. Exactly what Alcor did. For several reasons.
> 
> First and foremost, it was what the customer wanted and paid 
> me for...

Contractual obligation, OK got that.

> 
> Secondly, most cultures take great pains that funerary 
> practices are performed according to the respective 
> traditions...

OK cool, new one.  Societal obligation regarding funerary tradition.

 
> ... For example if a Christian dies in an explosion in 
> Afghanistan?and the only remains that are recovered are his 
> foot, they will send his foot to the?US and hold a funeral 
> for and bury his foot...

What if the foot is amputated for being an unbeliever, and the infidel
lives.  Then what do they do with the infidel's foot?  Make a foot stool?

Sorry, just a little amputation humor there.  Back to our regular
programming:

> ...The family  was wrong and they needed 
> to be humbled.

I think everyone agrees on that, which is why Alcor gets at least some good
PR along with the bad.
 
> Thirdly, this case needed to go to court so as to establish 
> precedent for all future conflicts of interest between a 
> cryonicist and his heirs...

Good, I didn't have this in the map of the thoughtspace.  Mr. Richardson
might have lost himself in the process of saving countless others in the
future.
...
> 
> Now as to what?I would do as "Benevolent Dictator" of Alcor 
> to prevent this kind of debacle in the future is that I would?
> recommend clients sign a limited power of attorney granting 
> Alcor the right to sue?for damages...??Stuart LaForge 
> 

Excellent Stuart!  Good thinking.  Not only did you produce a well-reasoned
response, but also a suggestion to prevent a similar situation in the
future.

There is a wild new frontier opened up if one gives Alcor limited power of
attorney.  If this is done, a family who wasn't informed about an Alcor
client's status could be liable as all hell if they didn't know what they
were supposed to do.  

What if the family were *slightly* guilty, for dismissing the client's talk
of cryonics as the ramblings of a sick mind?  I have family members who
treat my talk of cryonics as the natural insanity-inducing result of
rejecting god.  In their minds, this is rejecting the perfectly obvious
truth, which is clear evidence of mental illness.  I don't know how I will
work around that, but I do not want them held legally liable for their
religious views, even if I disagree and suffer as a result.  So I probably
wouldn't give Alcor limited power of attorney, but would look for some
reasonable alternative.

spike



For estimating a score, I gave a point for first choice, half a point for
second, a quarter of a point for third, if they offered these.  I don't know
if that is a logical way to score them, so I am open to suggestion.  Alcor
should be worth more than one point too.  How much?  Should we take the
number of people who participated in the Alcor decision and give it one more
than half that number?

Do feel free to discuss this matter with your spouse or partner, and add
their input even if they never hang out here.

Here's the thoughtspace map with Stuart's input:
 
> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig.

Scoreboard:

Quad 1) 	0.75: spike's 2nd, Brent?s 3rd

Quad 2)	3.75: BillK?, spike's 3rd, Damien, Samantha, David Lubkin?s 2nd.

Quad 3)	1.0:  Tim Halterman's 2nd, Brent?s 2nd 

Quad 4)	13.0: Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Shelly Jones, Holly Gray, Tim
Halterman, Jeff Davis, Stefano(?), David Lubkin, Brent Allsop, Adrian,
Avantguardian.

> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig

Reasoning:

Quad 1, for:  	best for Alcor PR.  Helps the siblings of the deceased?
ref: Brent Allsop 3rd(?) 

Quad 1, against:  motivates relatives to burn or bury you. ref: spike, Brent


Quad 2, for:   	better PR for Alcor than 4.  ref: BillK, Damien, Samantha.

Quad 2, against:	breaks legally binding contract, opens Alcor to
liability.  Ref: Jeff Davis(?)


Quad 3, for:	Helps the siblings of the deceased?  Brent Allsop 2nd(?).

Quad 3, against:	Alcor goes broke, risks the currently suspended.
Might motivate the siblings to burn or bury.  Ref: spike, Brent.


Quad 4, for:	Alcor carries out what it agreed to do contractually, Alcor
may be legally required to dig.   Western society honors dying wishes, even
if unreasonable.  Establishes legal roadmap for future cases.  refs:  Alcor,
Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff Davis, Stefano(?),
David Lubkin, Brent Allsop, Stuart LaForge.

Quad 4, against:	bad PR for Alcor, hopeless for the patient, silly,
gross, etc.  refs:  Damien, BillK(?), Samantha





From sparge at gmail.com  Tue May 18 15:25:56 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:25:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimsxyjiCdDK4_sec_9XFiBlU7cRB_3YHxFAH45V@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/17 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
> Dave Sill wrote:
>
>> I think they're primarily making the point that you can't block them
>> from doing their thing simply by delaying the process. They're also
>> doing what they contractually agreed to do.
>
> No.? They agreed to cryonically preserve his brain to the best of current
> art.

So any delay in preservation means Alcor can just refuse to do it's
job? I don't think so.

> That brain is now useless mush.

We don't really know that, do we? Properly embalmed and stored in a
sealed casket, it seems *possible* that sufficient structure could
remain. Do you really want Alcor to just assume it's useless mush?

> This is the equivalent to digging up
> a corpse because you agreed to marry the person before their untimely
> death.

No it isn't. You can't marry a dead person.

>? It is gruesome slime smeared on cryonics.? I do not consider this a
> "victory" in the slightest.

Yeah, it's gruesome. So what? Cryopreservation shouldn't be skipped in
cases where it's particularly icky.

-Dave



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue May 18 15:31:51 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:31:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimTOmDPvZC06sZXbADxiMEZaUnlNf5eZoZxBuGq@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/18/10, spike wrote:
>
>  Contractual obligation, OK got that.
>
>


Come on......  Pull the other one.
The customer had a contract for a complete head suspension.
Not an empty shiny white skull suspension.
He should ask for his money back.  Oh wait.........


>
>  OK cool, new one.  Societal obligation regarding funerary tradition.
>
>


Another bit of nonsense.
How can you possibly call cryonics a societal funerary tradition?
1) It's certainly not traditional.
2) It's certainly not a societal thing. (Most of society is against it).
3) It's not even funerary. It's classified as organ donation.



>  Excellent Stuart!  Good thinking.  Not only did you produce a well-reasoned
>  response, but also a suggestion to prevent a similar situation in the
>  future.
>
>  There is a wild new frontier opened up if one gives Alcor limited power of
>  attorney.  If this is done, a family who wasn't informed about an Alcor
>  client's status could be liable as all hell if they didn't know what they
>  were supposed to do.
>



Sorry, not possible. Power of attorney expires at the same time as the
person it covers. Dead people don't have legal representatives. I
think the terms would have to be written into the will, which any
lawyer would be obligated to fulfil.



>  What if the family were *slightly* guilty, for dismissing the client's talk
>  of cryonics as the ramblings of a sick mind?  I have family members who
>  treat my talk of cryonics as the natural insanity-inducing result of
>  rejecting god.  In their minds, this is rejecting the perfectly obvious
>  truth, which is clear evidence of mental illness.  I don't know how I will
>  work around that, but I do not want them held legally liable for their
>  religious views, even if I disagree and suffer as a result.  So I probably
>  wouldn't give Alcor limited power of attorney, but would look for some
>  reasonable alternative.
>
>


Wills can be set aside if mental incapacity can be proved. Care should
be taken to protect against this possibility.



BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue May 18 16:02:36 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:02:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Temperature and formaldehyde
Message-ID: <AANLkTimmuQpu0KY8ElLG05WKN2oHx-RvORyIvRlZw7mB@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, both of these were debated on cryonet, sci.cryonics and in
Alcor's magazine for a couple of decades.  It's all there if you go
looking with search tools.

A few of the patients (including a friend of mine) were preserved in
formaldehyde, then infiltrated as slices or brain cubes with
cryoprotective solutions and frozen to LN2 temperature.

Re  Damien's concerns about time, you can write anything you want for
conditions where you think it is hopeless to try to suspend what is
left.  Most people pick "suspend if you can find anything."

Hostile relatives are a major concern at Alcor.  I don't have the
numbers, but they are a significant cause of suspension failures.  All
I can say is that if you have hostile relatives potentially in control
of the circumstances around your death, you better make other
arrangements.  Being really public about it may be a good idea too.

Alcor had no choice about what they did.  No refunds and dig.

Keith


From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue May 18 15:30:52 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:30:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF2B2AC.6060003@libero.it>

Il 18/05/2010 16.43, spike ha scritto:

> Excellent Stuart!  Good thinking.  Not only did you produce a
> well-reasoned response, but also a suggestion to prevent a similar
> situation in the future.

> There is a wild new frontier opened up if one gives Alcor limited
> power of attorney.  If this is done, a family who wasn't informed
> about an Alcor client's status could be liable as all hell if they
> didn't know what they were supposed to do.

IANAL, but there is a legal principle that say "no one can be held
responsible to not doing the impossible".
If the family don't know, they can not be held responsible.
But if they know, they can be held responsible.

> What if the family were *slightly* guilty, for dismissing the
> client's talk of cryonics as the ramblings of a sick mind?

For what I understand the thing it is "guilty" or "not  guilty".
What they are guilty or not guilty could change with the circumstances.

> I have family members who treat my talk of cryonics as the natural
> insanity-inducing result of rejecting god.

Their problems, not yours.

> In their minds, this is rejecting the perfectly obvious truth, which
> is clear evidence of mental illness.

Again, their problems, not yours.

> I don't know how I will work around that, but I do not want them held
> legally liable for their religious views, even if I disagree and
> suffer as a result.  So I probably wouldn't give Alcor limited power
> of attorney, but would look for some reasonable alternative.

I would suggest to give Alcor the limited power of attorney, then tell 
your relatives about it and the legal consequences of their actions.

They are not legally liable for their religious view, but for their 
actions. If they know the consequences of their actions they are 
entitled to decide if it worth to pay for them.

Mirco

-------------- next part --------------

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From max at maxmore.com  Tue May 18 16:05:17 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:05:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
Message-ID: <201005181606.o4IG64nJ005665@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike, and everyone: I've held off on giving my preferred option here 
because I can't spare the time to give my reasoning -- however, I 
don't have any new points to add for my chosen quadrant. So:

Given the person's stated wishes, I favor Quad 4: no refund, dig.

If the person had stated their wishes to be to suspend them only if 
Alcor believed there was still a remote chance of their being 
revivable at some point, I might (given the one-year burial) go for 
Quad 2: no refund, no dig.

Max



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 16:28:25 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:28:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimTOmDPvZC06sZXbADxiMEZaUnlNf5eZoZxBuGq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike><462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
	<AANLkTimTOmDPvZC06sZXbADxiMEZaUnlNf5eZoZxBuGq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FBEEC1F107E448DDB2E91C069EA391BC@spike>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
> 
> On 5/18/10, spike wrote:
...
> >
> >  OK cool, new one.  Societal obligation regarding funerary 
> tradition.> 
> 
> Another bit of nonsense.
> How can you possibly call cryonics a societal funerary tradition?...

The tradition is in doing funerals the way the deceased wanted.  Often it
turns into the relatives saying, in spite of clear evidence to the contrary,
"He would have wanted it this way," as they do it their own way.

> 1) It's certainly not traditional...

Ja, let us work to make it so.

> 2) It's certainly not a societal thing. (Most of society is 
> against it)...

Ja, let us work to make them in favor.

> 3) It's not even funerary. It's classified as organ donation...

We need to work that angle more.  I don't see why a head would not be
considered an organ.  My brain is my second favorite organ.

> ...
> Wills can be set aside if mental incapacity can be proved. 
> Care should be taken to protect against this possibility... BillK

Good point.  We need to watch for wills being set aside based on the notion
of mental incapacity as demonstrated by rejection of religious notions.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 16:31:01 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:31:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Temperature and formaldehyde
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimmuQpu0KY8ElLG05WKN2oHx-RvORyIvRlZw7mB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmuQpu0KY8ElLG05WKN2oHx-RvORyIvRlZw7mB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <818B9BBF5ECE4BB388F1DDF71F805281@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Keith Henson
...
> 
> Alcor had no choice about what they did.  No refunds and dig. Keith

Thanks Keith!  Your opinion counts heavily on this, as you have been in the
scene for a long time and you are a thinker and a doer.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 17:08:58 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:08:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF2B2AC.6060003@libero.it>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
	<4BF2B2AC.6060003@libero.it>
Message-ID: <88880CF95E9E463F928B29696F406EC8@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
> ...
> I would suggest to give Alcor the limited power of attorney... Mirco

Europeans and other Exo-US-ExI-ers, do feel free to weigh in on this even if
you have no practical access to Alcor.  So far, Mirco is the only one of the
Italian Stallions to offer an opinion.  Do Brits and Europeans have some
counterpart to Alcor over on that side?  Keith is there a map somewhere that
shows the all the places where a prole could theoretically take the old
nitrogen bath?

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 16:43:09 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:43:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF2B2AC.6060003@libero.it>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
	<4BF2B2AC.6060003@libero.it>
Message-ID: <28E33A3A358B42BDAAE6450F21590AEE@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
> ...
> 
> They are not legally liable for their religious view, but for 
> their actions. If they know the consequences of their actions 
> they are entitled to decide if it worth to pay for them.
> 
> Mirco

Actually, I think the answer has been posted: tell the relatives you have
arranged for an organ donation, the parameds will be there, so don't get in
their damn way, because it needs to be done quickly, etc.  The organ is my
brain, and they will take it away in it's natural package.  Tell the family
they can still have an open casket funeral if they wish, but get a manikin
head to replace the missing one, and get one that looks better than I do.
And if you do that, stuff my coat so I have a chest for the first and last
time ever, etc.

Ja the organ donation angle might work.

spike




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue May 18 17:21:19 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:21:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 May 2010 22:46, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> ...
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
>>
>> I'd go with BillK on this: no refund, no exhumation,
>> certainly no cryo on decomposed remains. It's (so to speak) a
>> no brainer.
>>
>> Damien Broderick
>
> Do pardon my overposting today, for there is much interesting discussion
> currently.
>
> Thanks Damien, extra points for the wordplay. ?But do let us explore this
> highly relevant thought space with the most extreme thoroughness. ?You
> offered an opinion, but not so much a line of reasoning. ?I agree, the
> freezing of an empty skull is not a good thing from a PR standpoint.

OTOH, just to play the devil's advocate, what if it had been
incineration, rather than cryo suspension?

As in "some like ending in fire, other in ice".

Legally speaking, the easiest way to deal with cryonics is to consider
it i) euthanasia, if administered on a living body ii) in any event,
as last will concerning one's corpse after one's death.

The (possible) motive of a more or less remote chance of resuscitation
need not really enter the frame when the instructions of the deceased
- as from a legal point of view he *is* deceased for good - are in
discussion...

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue May 18 17:37:04 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:37:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear fusion breakthrough...or not
In-Reply-To: <601F31C2-EB32-4D3B-9A6B-06998EDA4EAD@bellsouth.net>
References: <396981.92089.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTin1ZKH1AzJDpBJIFsOZjoyirLEGlKXMtDAkKZ3R@mail.gmail.com>
	<601F31C2-EB32-4D3B-9A6B-06998EDA4EAD@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTims7pYGtAkMVOvj7-PCPge3a8jdILK4TxBMGpQd@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/17 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> And in the late 1950's Peron's Argentina claimed they had discovered the
> secret of controlled nuclear fusion. Wake me up when something interesting
> happens.

It did. The problem was that the oligarchy, in cahot with the CIA,
managed to suppress the details of the technology... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue May 18 17:42:17 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:42:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
In-Reply-To: <21042676.452771274123971179.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <21042676.452771274123971179.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimohFh3cyj8wIkMbJcFcZ3wXjTWPmScIiHY-jrM@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 May 2010 21:19, scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:
> Spike spiked:
>> Question please: if you wished to explain your native culture to someone
>> outside, which book would you recommend and why?
>
> 'The Leopard' (Italian: 'Il Gattopardo') a novel by
> Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa, published,
> posthumously, in 1958.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Leopard
> http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808645786/info
> http://www.communitywalk.com/the_leopard_map/map/359495
>
> Why? It is a masterpiece.

It definitely is, and Luchino Visconti's movie is not bad either.

Even though my grandmother, as somebody grown in Milan from a Lombard
family, did perceive the Sicilian world depicted therein at least as
remote as a story taking place in Japan... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue May 18 17:42:04 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:42:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
	<AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>

On 5/18/2010 12:21 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> The (possible) motive of a more or less remote chance of resuscitation
> need not really enter the frame when the instructions of the deceased
> - as from a legal point of view he*is*  deceased for good - are in
> discussion...

Good point. If, say, you want your body to be cut into small cubes, 
seasoned with herbs, and dispersed around the world, because it's your 
whim or Gaia wants it done that way, I suppose the court should support 
your ambitions, as long as it's sanitary and you've provided sufficient 
funds for it.

Which makes me wonder how this works when for decades you have paid an 
insurance company for the specific purpose of having Alcor freeze your 
head, then that is prevented (your body is lost at sea, or your head 
crushed by a trip hammer, or your dearly beloved relatives have your 
remains buried)--is the company no longer obliged to pay anyone 
anything, or does the loot go to the estate, or to Alcor's coffers, or 
what?

Damien Broderick


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue May 18 17:49:04 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:49:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Temperature and formaldehyde
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimmuQpu0KY8ElLG05WKN2oHx-RvORyIvRlZw7mB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmuQpu0KY8ElLG05WKN2oHx-RvORyIvRlZw7mB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiluShzsUUgc1dubYu7r1wbdAA6eGLJefeFub2Bi@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 May 2010 18:02, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Re ?Damien's concerns about time, you can write anything you want for
> conditions where you think it is hopeless to try to suspend what is
> left. ?Most people pick "suspend if you can find anything."

Your message made me think to the remains of the paleolithic man found
frozen in the Alps.

In fact, it is true that even in such scenarios at the very least the
DNA of the individual concerned is preserved.

This may not be much in terms of "immortality", but, hey,. we are not
discussing cryonic procedures paid by the National Health Service.

Why should one who can choose to be embalmed not be allowed to choose
to be frozen instead?

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 18:19:54 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:19:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike><AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> ... 
> Good point. If, say, you want your body to be cut into small 
> cubes, seasoned with herbs, and dispersed around the world, 
> because it's your whim or Gaia wants it done that way, I 
> suppose the court should support your ambitions, as long as 
> it's sanitary and you've provided sufficient funds for it...

While hiking I met two ladies who were discussing the greenest way to
dispose of their remains when the time comes.  They discussed burial, which
takes up land which would be mowed and groomed (bad) or by cremation, which
uses up a remarkable amount of fuel (bad).  I countersuggested having one's
remains frozen inside a steel container submerged in liquid nitrogen, then
the container is shaken violently until the remains are shattered into pea
sized granules, then scatter the still frozen bits into the sea, or over a
wide unimproved area by hauling a minature manure spreader with a bicycle,
whereupon the fragments will be devoured by ants upon thawing.

This is a photo of the device used to shatter a frozen corpse:

http://www.atecorp.com/Equipment/Ling/330.asp


> Which makes me wonder how this works when for decades you 
> have paid an insurance company for the specific purpose of 
> having Alcor freeze your head, then that is prevented (your 
> body is lost at sea, or your head crushed by a trip hammer, 
> or your dearly beloved relatives have your remains 
> buried)--is the company no longer obliged to pay anyone 
> anything, or does the loot go to the estate, or to Alcor's 
> coffers, or what?
> 
> Damien Broderick

Depends on how one sets up the policy.  This should be done carefully with
much forethought.  The company will look for any and every avenue to pocket
the cash, as will one's relatives perhaps.

This ant thing appeals to me for neck-down disposal.  I have a piece of
unimproved land which could be used as a green disposal area.  In this age
of decline of the aerospace industry, there are plenty of Ling shakers
available cheap.  I know how to run one, and how to maintain it.  For
Avantguardian Stuart LaForge or other business-minded types, opportunity
knocks loudly.  While freezing corpses, we could issue carbon credits for
the fuel we didn't burn in cremation, then arrange for the deceased to
donate them to earthquake victims in missionary/kidnapper-ravaged Haiti.  

In a place like the SF Bay Area, this green funeral service would sell like
pure sex.

spike





From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue May 18 18:45:52 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:45:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism: Better thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/17 Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

>
> http://www.newscientist.com/special/living-in-denial
>
>
> [image: Nlogo1.tif] Natasha Vita-More <http://www.natasha.cc/>
>

Thank you, Natasha for that reference.  I have good friends who are
"truthers" (of the more moderate sort), who are intelligent, well educated,
reasonable people. I have been trying, without success, to understand how
they could possibly believe as they do.  This appears to be a decent
explanation.  At the very least a good starting point for working it out.

Thanks again.

Best, Jeff Davis

   "We don't see things as they are,
          we see them as we are."
                     Anais Nin
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue May 18 19:17:34 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:17:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Temperature and formaldehyde
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiluShzsUUgc1dubYu7r1wbdAA6eGLJefeFub2Bi@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmuQpu0KY8ElLG05WKN2oHx-RvORyIvRlZw7mB@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiluShzsUUgc1dubYu7r1wbdAA6eGLJefeFub2Bi@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinpBt6VPvJ_KVH3Vu4D8ZhdmYseS1WoyUwoakcu@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why should one who can choose to be embalmed not be allowed to choose
> to be frozen instead?

No reason other than a sort of cultural xenophobia.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                        Ray Charles


From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 19:27:56 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:27:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
>   
>> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 6:19:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
>>     
>
> Spike wrote:
>
> Avant, which quadrant and why?  
>   
>> Offlist OK if you want to be anonymous.
>>     
> Imagine yourself as having been 
>   
>> drafted as Benevolent Dictator of Alcor with
>>     
> absolute power.  What would 
>   
>> you have done?  
>> Reasoning?
>>     
>
> Quadrant four. Exactly what Alcor did. For several reasons.
>
> First and foremost, it was what the customer wanted and paid me for. 
False.  They paid you for a chance at future life.  Not to freeze 
whatever remnant of fresh even if it is utterly hopeless to be any more 
than a symbolic act.
> The customer knew that cryonics is an imperfect science and it has inherent risks associated with it. There is no guarantee of revival even in an ideally performed preservation.
Sure, but there is at least the possibility.  A year after dead with no 
preservation there is none whatsoever.  So I do not believe this is a 
convincing argument.

>  With that knowledge, the man nonetheless wrote into his will that cryopreservation is what he wanted to be done to his remains.

It is not about what is done with "remains" but about the possibility of 
preserving enough fast enough for possible further life.  It is not 
about disposal of truly dead.  It may look like that in current legal 
terms but that was not the intend of the person in signing up and I 
think we all know this.

>  It would be no different if someone had contracted with Alcor to be cremated and have his ashes scattered over Red Light District of Amsterdam.

It is quite different.

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 19:31:28 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:31:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimsxyjiCdDK4_sec_9XFiBlU7cRB_3YHxFAH45V@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimsxyjiCdDK4_sec_9XFiBlU7cRB_3YHxFAH45V@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF2EB10.7030103@mac.com>

Dave Sill wrote:
> 2010/5/17 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
>   
>> Dave Sill wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I think they're primarily making the point that you can't block them
>>> from doing their thing simply by delaying the process. They're also
>>> doing what they contractually agreed to do.
>>>       
>> No.  They agreed to cryonically preserve his brain to the best of current
>> art.
>>     
>
> So any delay in preservation means Alcor can just refuse to do it's
> job? I don't think so.
>
>   
Depends on what "its job" is defined to be doesn't it?  You don't show 
up if you contract to fight fires after the house is burned down.
>> That brain is now useless mush.
>>     
>
> We don't really know that, do we? Properly embalmed and stored in a
> sealed casket, it seems *possible* that sufficient structure could
> remain. Do you really want Alcor to just assume it's useless mush?
>
>   

Give me a break.  Scientifically we very much do know that.

>> This is the equivalent to digging up
>> a corpse because you agreed to marry the person before their untimely
>> death.
>>     
>
> No it isn't. You can't marry a dead person.
>   
You can't reanimate a person whose brain has already decayed away 
either.  Precisely my point.


>   
>>   It is gruesome slime smeared on cryonics.  I do not consider this a
>> "victory" in the slightest.
>>     
>
> Yeah, it's gruesome. So what? Cryopreservation shouldn't be skipped in
> cases where it's particularly icky.
>
>   

When it is utterly pointless and only gruesome is left it should.


- samantha

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 19:46:12 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:46:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>

 

>	Thank you, Natasha for that reference.  I have good friends who are
"truthers" (of the more moderate sort), who are intelligent, well educated,
reasonable people...
	Best, Jeff Davis

Jeff I have a take on that topic you may find entertaining.  Often political
explanations are offered, but I will attempt trutherism from a vaguely
scientific perspective.

Water is the most common substance we work with on a regular basis which
regularly undergoes a phase change.  But water is an oddball substance in so
many ways.  One odd characteristic is its heat of fusion and its mechanical
properties when at its melting point.

Thought experiment: take an ice cube and leave it on a plate in the kitchen
for an hour or so.  The ice cube warms up to 0, sits there in a pool of 0
degree water until the ice cube is all melted.  Take the partially melted
ice cube and eat it.  It still crunches, even when it is right at 0 degrees,
in the process of melting, ja?  Many of us eat ice nearly every day, and it
is a treat: devour our soda, crunch the ice, aahhh, life is good.  We have
never bitten on an ice cube and have it go smoosh or mush.  It always goes
crunch.  I admire water ice for that delightful characteristic.

Since water/ice is the most common phase change we expose ourselves to, damn
near every day, we naturally imagine that this phase change is typical of
solids, but it isn't.  Water is weird stuff.  Perhaps the second most common
substance which undergoes a phase change, and we work with every day would
be butter.  We know how butter softens, we bite a piece of warm butter and
it definitely goes smoosh.

Insight: we normal proles seldom work with the phase change of steel.  But
if we did, we would all know that steel is a lot more like butter than it is
like water ice.  Understatement: steel works more like butter than butter
does, in this respect.  Steel softens *a lot* as it approaches its "melting
point."

So perhaps part of the reason trutherism got so much mileage is due to the
rumor that a fuel oil fire doesn't get hot enough to melt steel (and so
explosives must have been present.)  Technically true, but it doesn't need
to *melt* the steel, only soften it like warm butter.  A fuel-air fire sure
as hell gets hot enough to soften steel, sufficient to cause burning
buildings to collapse.  Examples are numerous.  Are your friends aware of
this?

We humans can get oddball ideas about matter because we are made up mostly
of an oddball type of matter.  We don't even realize how unusual it is.
Water is really weird stuff.

spike






	




From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue May 18 19:47:06 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:47:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
Message-ID: <201005181954.o4IJsVT9002951@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

> > ... For example if a Christian dies in an explosion in
> > Afghanistan and the only remains that are recovered are his
> > foot, they will send his foot to the US and hold a funeral
> > for and bury his foot...
>
>What if the foot is amputated for being an unbeliever, and the infidel
>lives.  Then what do they do with the infidel's foot?  Make a foot stool?

Israel has a team of Orthodox Jewish volunteers who scour battlefields
for body parts after the fighting's over. They sort out who's who,
presumably by DNA, for burial purposes. Ritually, only a Jew can be
buried in a Jewish cemetery. (This might be in retaliation for the
centuries of Jews being forbidden use of the (Christian) town cemetery;
I'm not sure which came first.)

Before DNA, they'd use forensic clues and SWAGs to distinguish
Jewish body parts from non-Jewish. Each set of parts that appears to
be a single person is buried together, regardless of how small the
set is. If a ritual serial killer is caught with a jar of right thumbs, each
one gets a full funeral service.

I have a friend who is a VP of an investment house by day and
Orthodox rabbi by night who is receptive to odd questions. I could ask
him what they do with severed or surgically removed body parts of
those still living. Lemme know if you have any other odd questions,
so I can ask them together.

I do know that maternity hospitals in Israel throw out afterbirths.
I know this personally. I had several volunteer jobs during the Yom
Kippur War. The coolest was in the ER of an evac hospital, taking
wounded soldiers off to radiology or the OR. (It was humbling to
hear them talking to each other about which of their wounds they
had to tell their family about and which they would conceal, lest they
worry.) The least pleasant was filling in for reservists whose civilian
job was garbage crew, and the least pleasant part of that was when
we picked up the maternity hospital's trash.

While we're talking about cryonics and religion: I have made the
argument for years that for any religion that views medical care as
appropriate, life as sacred, and suicide a sin (virtually all of them),
it is incumbent on any good religionist to be signed up for cryonics.
So far only atheists have agreed with me....


-- David.



From sparge at gmail.com  Tue May 18 19:55:10 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:55:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF2EB10.7030103@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimsxyjiCdDK4_sec_9XFiBlU7cRB_3YHxFAH45V@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF2EB10.7030103@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil8uSj8W69FZgJJ_kLkw7oS8nXIJciTGkTtoQPT@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/18 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
> Dave Sill wrote:
>
> So any delay in preservation means Alcor can just refuse to do it's
> job? I don't think so.
>
> Depends on what "its job" is defined to be doesn't it?

Sorry about the typo. Yes, it does depend. I haven't seen this man's
Alcor contract. Have you?

> You don't show up if
> you contract to fight fires after the house is burned down.

If the contract says that once notified the house is on fire that I'm
to get there ASAP and spray water on it until it's out, then that's
what I'll do. If the house is still burning when I get there, I'm
gonna spray, regardless of whether it's "obvious" that the house is a
total loss and I'm wasting my time, making a mess, and embarrassing
the firefighting profession.

> That brain is now useless mush.

Almost certainly.

Almost.

If it was *my* almost certainly useless mush, I'd still want it preserved.

>> We don't really know that, do we? Properly embalmed and stored in a
>> sealed casket, it seems *possible* that sufficient structure could
>> remain. Do you really want Alcor to just assume it's useless mush?
>
> Give me a break.? Scientifically we very much do know that.

I disagree. Do you have any evidence for your claim?

> You can't reanimate a person whose brain has already decayed away either.
> Precisely my point.

And my point is that nobody knows if the brain has "decayed away"
until it's exhumed and examined.

> When it is utterly pointless and only gruesome is left it should.

You presume it's utterly pointless without actually examining the
brain. You also ignore other possible benefits of this action, such as
discouraging other families from blocking cryopreservation, that make
it less than pointless.

-Dave



From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 20:39:10 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:39:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <201005181954.o4IJsVT9002951@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike><201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike><462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><D201D321CDB14507BBD79BCEF5BDEC28@spike>
	<201005181954.o4IJsVT9002951@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <D33378D96CEA434C8BB94648E94DD3F2@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of David Lubkin...
> 
> Spike wrote:
> >
> >What if the foot is amputated for being an unbeliever, and 
> the infidel 
> >lives.  Then what do they do with the infidel's foot?  Make 
> a foot stool?
> 
> I have a friend who is a VP of an investment house by day and 
> Orthodox rabbi by night who is receptive to odd questions. I 
> could ask him what they do with severed or surgically removed 
> body parts of those still living. Lemme know if you have any 
> other odd questions, so I can ask them together...

Thanks David, I don't need to know what they do with the severed hands and
feet, but I can imagine a market for them as study models for medical
students.  On the other hand, the market might motivate the believers to
amputate more often.  I don't know how the law works in those lands, but
perhaps the hands and feet could be sold to the infidel so that she could
attempt to have the severed appendage surgically re-attached. 

> While we're talking about cryonics and religion: I have made 
> the argument for years that for any religion that views 
> medical care as appropriate, life as sacred, and suicide a 
> sin (virtually all of them), it is incumbent on any good 
> religionist to be signed up for cryonics.
> So far only atheists have agreed with me... -- David.

With Religion Incorporated, the main point is not the ethics, but rather
that the true believers hand over their cash to Religion Incorporated.  Or
perhaps I am just a bit cynical.  I have tried the cryonics angle on various
fundamental believers, but the whole notion does not sell well.  The
underlying principle is that if you have enough money to do cryonics, you
should hand it over to Religion Incorporated to save more souls.

spike







From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 18 20:47:08 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:47:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil8uSj8W69FZgJJ_kLkw7oS8nXIJciTGkTtoQPT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com><AANLkTimsxyjiCdDK4_sec_9XFiBlU7cRB_3YHxFAH45V@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF2EB10.7030103@mac.com>
	<AANLkTil8uSj8W69FZgJJ_kLkw7oS8nXIJciTGkTtoQPT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A971713FBF374939BF9F23D4AD007F94@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Dave Sill
> ...
> 
> You presume it's utterly pointless without actually examining 
> the brain. You also ignore other possible benefits of this 
> action, such as discouraging other families from blocking 
> cryopreservation, that make it less than pointless.
> 
> -Dave


Thanks Dave, I actually think that point may be the strongest reason for the
dig, no refund option.  I assume Mr. Richardson is gone for good, but he may
have saved many with his tragic end.  Alcor is in a hell of a spot, but by
doing quad 4, they may have saved many in the long run.

I added your notion to the reasoning matrix below:


> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig.

Scoreboard:

Quad 1) 	0.75: spike's 2nd, Brent's 3rd

Quad 2)	4.25: BillK(?), spike's 3rd, Damien, Samantha, David Lubkin's 2nd,
Max's 2nd

Quad 3)	1.0:  Tim Halterman's 2nd, Brent's 2nd 

Quad 4)	15.0: Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Shelly Jones, Holly Gray, Tim
Halterman, Jeff Davis, Stefano(?), David Lubkin, Brent Allsop, Adrian,
Avantguardian, Keith Henson, Max More.

> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig

Reasoning:

Quad 1, for:  	best for Alcor PR.  Helps the siblings of the deceased?
ref: Brent Allsop 3rd(?) 

Quad 1, against:  motivates relatives to burn or bury you. ref: spike, Brent


Quad 2, for:   	better PR for Alcor than quad 4.  ref: BillK, Damien,
Samantha.

Quad 2, against:	bad PR for Alcor, breaks legally binding contract,
opens Alcor to liability.  Ref: Jeff Davis(?)


Quad 3, for:	Helps the siblings of the deceased?  Brent Allsop 2nd(?).

Quad 3, against:	Alcor goes broke, risks the currently suspended.
Might motivate the siblings to burn or bury.  Ref: spike, Brent.


Quad 4, for:	Alcor carries out what it agreed to do, so it is morally
obligated to dig.  Alcor may be legally required to dig by contractual
agreement.   Western society honors dying wishes, even if unreasonable
(ethical argument.)  Establishes legal roadmap for future cases.  Dig, no
refund discourages other families from blocking cryopreservation plans.
refs:  Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman, Jeff
Davis, Stefano(?), David Lubkin, Brent Allsop, Avantguardian Stuart LaForge,
Keith Henson, Max.

Quad 4, against:	bad PR for Alcor, hopeless for the patient, silly,
gross, punitive for Alcor volunteers, etc.  refs:  Damien, BillK(?),
Samantha



From algaenymph at gmail.com  Tue May 18 20:01:14 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:01:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
 thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com>

spike wrote:
> So perhaps part of the reason trutherism got so much mileage is due to the
> rumor that a fuel oil fire doesn't get hot enough to melt steel (and so
> explosives must have been present.)  Technically true, but it doesn't need
> to *melt* the steel, only soften it like warm butter.  A fuel-air fire sure
> as hell gets hot enough to soften steel, sufficient to cause burning
> buildings to collapse.
Actually, I remember this being one of the first things brought up.


From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 21:25:26 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:25:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil8uSj8W69FZgJJ_kLkw7oS8nXIJciTGkTtoQPT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimsxyjiCdDK4_sec_9XFiBlU7cRB_3YHxFAH45V@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF2EB10.7030103@mac.com>
	<AANLkTil8uSj8W69FZgJJ_kLkw7oS8nXIJciTGkTtoQPT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF305C6.3050607@mac.com>

Dave Sill wrote:
> 2010/5/18 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
>   
>> Dave Sill wrote:
>>
>> So any delay in preservation means Alcor can just refuse to do it's
>> job? I don't think so.
>>
>> Depends on what "its job" is defined to be doesn't it?
>>     
>
> Sorry about the typo. Yes, it does depend. I haven't seen this man's
> Alcor contract. Have you?
>
>   
>> You don't show up if
>> you contract to fight fires after the house is burned down.
>>     
>
> If the contract says that once notified the house is on fire that I'm
> to get there ASAP and spray water on it until it's out, then that's
> what I'll do. If the house is still burning when I get there, I'm
> gonna spray, regardless of whether it's "obvious" that the house is a
> total loss and I'm wasting my time, making a mess, and embarrassing
> the firefighting profession.
>
>   
>> That brain is now useless mush.
>>     
>
> Almost certainly.
>
> Almost.
>
> If it was *my* almost certainly useless mush, I'd still want it preserved.
>
>   
>>> We don't really know that, do we? Properly embalmed and stored in a
>>> sealed casket, it seems *possible* that sufficient structure could
>>> remain. Do you really want Alcor to just assume it's useless mush?
>>>       
>> Give me a break.  Scientifically we very much do know that.
>>     
>
> I disagree. Do you have any evidence for your claim?
>
>   
>> You can't reanimate a person whose brain has already decayed away either.
>> Precisely my point.
>>     
>
> And my point is that nobody knows if the brain has "decayed away"
> until it's exhumed and examined.
>
>   
>> When it is utterly pointless and only gruesome is left it should.
>>     
>
> You presume it's utterly pointless without actually examining the
> brain. You also ignore other possible benefits of this action, such as
> discouraging other families from blocking cryopreservation, that make
> it less than pointless.
>
> -Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 21:33:16 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:33:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil8uSj8W69FZgJJ_kLkw7oS8nXIJciTGkTtoQPT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimG1UKsmbrQOTq6uo2OqWgyzX-VzvqJMYwxVAYb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1DB44.1000901@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimsxyjiCdDK4_sec_9XFiBlU7cRB_3YHxFAH45V@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF2EB10.7030103@mac.com>
	<AANLkTil8uSj8W69FZgJJ_kLkw7oS8nXIJciTGkTtoQPT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF3079C.2030609@mac.com>

Dave Sill wrote:
>
>>> We don't really know that, do we? Properly embalmed and stored in a
>>> sealed casket, it seems *possible* that sufficient structure could
>>> remain. Do you really want Alcor to just assume it's useless mush?
>>>       
>> Give me a break.  Scientifically we very much do know that.
>>     
>
> I disagree. Do you have any evidence for your claim?
>
>   
Open about any medical textbook on the brain and read a bit.

>> You can't reanimate a person whose brain has already decayed away either.
>> Precisely my point.
>>     
>
> And my point is that nobody knows if the brain has "decayed away"
> until it's exhumed and examined.
>   

We have scads and scads of experience/knowledge regarding in what 
circumstances and how fast brains decay.  We don't have to dig up each 
instance to know,  for any realistic value of the word "know",  in that 
particular case.
>   
>> When it is utterly pointless and only gruesome is left it should.
>>     
>
> You presume it's utterly pointless without actually examining the
> brain. You also ignore other possible benefits of this action, such as
> discouraging other families from blocking cryopreservation, that make
> it less than pointless.
>   
I don't need to examine yet another specific brain to expect with so 
little possibility of error as to be inconsequential that the brain is a 
total loss for purposes of reanimation.  We most certainly do know that 
much conclusively.    Those that say we don't have the burden of 
presenting evidence that a brain can retain enough of its structure to 
preserve all the information necessary for you to be you under such 
conditions.   Otherwise it is just wishful thinking.

- samantha



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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue May 18 21:35:22 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:35:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
 thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
	<4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>

AlgaeNymph wrote:
> spike wrote:
>> So perhaps part of the reason trutherism got so much mileage is due 
>> to the
>> rumor that a fuel oil fire doesn't get hot enough to melt steel (and so
>> explosives must have been present.)  Technically true, but it doesn't 
>> need
>> to *melt* the steel, only soften it like warm butter.  A fuel-air 
>> fire sure
>> as hell gets hot enough to soften steel, sufficient to cause burning
>> buildings to collapse.
> Actually, I remember this being one of the first things brought up.

It does not burn hot enough to melt or significantly weaken skyscraper 
still.  That is a fact.  It has been proven even in fires that burned 
much longer for 24 hours.  Steel does not become like warm butter at 
those temperatures.  

- s



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue May 18 23:11:34 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:11:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
Message-ID: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>

An excellent H+ article about how Israel is becoming a center of
transhumanist technologies and thinking.  I admit to finding a great
deal of irony in this development.

Next up, the state of Utah and the Mormon faith? hee

http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/politics/israel%E2%80%99s-value-transhumanism

John  : )


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue May 18 23:48:27 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:48:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

John Grigg wrote:

>An excellent H+ article about how Israel is becoming a center of
>transhumanist technologies and thinking.  I admit to finding a great
>deal of irony in this development.
>
>Next up, the state of Utah and the Mormon faith? hee

If you knew more about Israel, you'd find less irony. Most Israeli Jews
(approx 85%) are not observant at all, and somewhat annoyed with
those who are. (The parliamentary system almost always means that
the religious political parties are needed for a coalition, and their
price is inconveniences like the busses not running on Saturday.)

Meanwhile, Israel is the world leader for tech startups, which is
consistent with transhumanist technophilia. I recommend

Start-up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle
<http://www.amazon.com/dp/044654146X>
4.5 stars (69 votes)

for why. In checking the URL, I saw a rave review by Edward Roberts,
who founded and runs the MIT Entrepreneurship Center --

<http://www.amazon.com/review/R1X340Z0CMV8X9>
***** Spectacular insights into building an entrepreneurial society


-- David.



From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Tue May 18 22:57:40 2010
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:57:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FBF2D6EE0B23473EA9779D53B2A463CC@Catbert>

I vote Quad 4) no refund, dig

I agree with Samantha that the brain is useless mush.  But I'm not convinced 
that a frozen brain is any more useful.

I agree with Dave that we can't perfectly predict future technology.  So if 
there is a contract, and the costs are already paid for, it should be 
honored even if external parties to that contract don't believe in it.

Besides, what are the alternatives?  Let Alcor keep the money without doing 
anything?  Let the relatives keep the money for their trechery?  Take away 
the money and give it to some charity?  The only thing that makes sense is 
to complete the original contract as best we can.

And in case anybody is getting any ideas....  My Alcor contract instructs 
them to preserve as much of me or as little of me that is available, no 
matter how soon or how delayed it may be.  And even if nothing can be done, 
they still get to keep my entire fee as a charitable donation.

--
Harvey Newstrom <www.HarveyNewstrom.com>



From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Tue May 18 22:58:27 2010
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:58:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it>
Message-ID: <3FE506823231422593844C213EE1AD9D@Catbert>

"Mirco Romanato" <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote,
> When people point the finger to the Moon and say "Look" do you look at the 
> finger?

It really depends on which finger....

--
Harvey Newstrom <www.HarveyNewstrom.com>



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed May 19 00:15:17 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:15:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <3FE506823231422593844C213EE1AD9D@Catbert>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it> <3FE506823231422593844C213EE1AD9D@Catbert>
Message-ID: <20100518201517.irhku9ljq8g80kcs@webmail.natasha.cc>


LOL!

Quoting Harvey Newstrom <mail at HarveyNewstrom.com>:

> "Mirco Romanato" <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote,
>> When people point the finger to the Moon and say "Look" do you look  
>>  at the finger?
>
> It really depends on which finger....
>
> --
> Harvey Newstrom <www.HarveyNewstrom.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed May 19 01:01:57 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:01:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <FBF2D6EE0B23473EA9779D53B2A463CC@Catbert>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<FBF2D6EE0B23473EA9779D53B2A463CC@Catbert>
Message-ID: <6360ABA2F04745B88BEDF81DFC6C4B1F@3DBOXXW4850>

I think that is what he had as well Harvey. (The part about preserving as 
little or as much that remains....)
Gina Miller
www.nanogirl.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harvey Newstrom" wrote:

> And in case anybody is getting any ideas....  My Alcor contract instructs 
> them to preserve as much of me or as little of me that is available, no 
> matter how soon or how delayed it may be.  And even if nothing can be 
> done, they still get to keep my entire fee as a charitable donation.
>
> --
> Harvey Newstrom <www.HarveyNewstrom.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 01:07:00 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:07:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>

 
> John Grigg wrote:
> 
> >An excellent H+ article about how Israel is becoming a center of 
> >transhumanist technologies and thinking.  I admit to finding a great 
> >deal of irony in this development...

Johnny, I am puzzled by your puzzlement sir.  Israel is exactly where I
would expect to find a center for transhumanist technologies and thinking.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 01:36:13 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:36:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <FBF2D6EE0B23473EA9779D53B2A463CC@Catbert>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<FBF2D6EE0B23473EA9779D53B2A463CC@Catbert>
Message-ID: <56AA5D537A5F4B0FA94ED62B319E4F0A@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Harvey Newstrom
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
> 
> I vote Quad 4) no refund, dig 
> ...
> And in case anybody is getting any ideas....  My Alcor 
> contract instructs them to preserve as much of me or as 
> little of me that is available, no matter how soon or how 
> delayed it may be... Harvey Newstrom

Thanks Harvey.  I think we are seeing a clear consensus here.  I interpreted
the score as much as I could to favor any alternative other than the one I
chose, quad 4, yet that course of action still won with a clear 16 points
(at least), quad 2 with 4.5 at most, and the other two quadrants, no one
could really come up with a vaguely compelling argument, unless one is as
charitable and nice as Brent Allsop (I'm not.)

Here is an interesting experiment.  Keith or someone here who hangs out on
cryonet please, did they have a discussion about this too?  Would anyone be
willing to pose this map to that group?  It would be my speculation that the
game would end up with a score similar to ours, with quad 4 beating quad 2
by about a 4 to 1 margin, and the other two quads down in the noise.
Suggest using the protocol of 1 point for first choice, half a point for
second choice, quarter for third, nada for last place.  I didn't award any
half points to quad 4 even tho several non-4ers made comments to the effect
that 4 would be their second choice.  So I was giving that choice (4) every
disadvantage I could think of.  In this game, Alcor only gets one point,
even though clearly they deserve more than that.

Another idea, since the Alcor leadership likely suffered some sleepless
nights over this, would it bother anyone to forward this final scoreboard to
them?  Should we remove the names?  Samantha, BillK, Damien, do you care if
Alcor sees contrary opinions?  Would it improve morale there to know we
understand it was a tough choice, we didn't see a clearly better alternative
to what they did, and we are not going to take their picture down off the
piano?



Final score:

> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig.

Scoreboard:

Quad 1) 	0.5: spike's 3rd, Brent's 3rd

Quad 2)	4.5: BillK(?), spike's 2nd, Damien, Samantha, David Lubkin's 2nd,
Max's 2nd

Quad 3)	1.0:  Tim Halterman's 2nd, Brent's 2nd 

Quad 4)	16.0: Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Shelly Jones, Holly Gray, Tim
Halterman, Jeff Davis, Stefano(?), David Lubkin, Brent Allsop, Adrian,
Avantguardian, Keith Henson, Max More, Harvey.

> 	Quad 1) refund, no dig
> 	Quad 2) no refund, no dig
> 	Quad 3) refund, dig
> 	Quad 4) no refund, dig

Reasoning:

Quad 1, for:  	best for Alcor PR.  Helps the siblings of the deceased?
ref: Brent Allsop 3rd(?) 

Quad 1, against:  motivates relatives to burn or bury you. ref: spike, Brent


Quad 2, for:   	better PR for Alcor than quad 4.  ref: BillK, Damien,
Samantha.

Quad 2, against:	bad PR for Alcor, breaks legally binding contract,
opens Alcor to liability.  Ref: Jeff Davis(?)


Quad 3, for:	Helps the siblings of the deceased?  Brent Allsop 2nd(?).

Quad 3, against:	Alcor goes broke, risks the currently suspended.
Might motivate the siblings to burn or bury.  Ref: spike, Brent.


Quad 4, for:	Alcor carries out what it agreed to do, so it is morally
obligated to dig.  Alcor may be legally required to dig by contractual
agreement.   Western society honors dying wishes, even if unreasonable
(ethical argument.)  Establishes legal roadmap for future cases.  Dig, no
refund option discourages other families from blocking cryopreservation
plans.  refs:  Alcor, Mirco, Dave Sill, spike, Holly Gray, Tim Halterman,
Jeff Davis, Stefano(?), David Lubkin, Brent Allsop, Avantguardian Stuart
LaForge, Keith Henson, Max, Harvey Newstrom.

Quad 4, against:	bad PR for Alcor, hopeless for the patient, silly,
gross, punitive for Alcor volunteers, etc.  refs:  Damien, BillK(?),
Samantha
 




From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 01:37:52 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:37:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <20100518201517.irhku9ljq8g80kcs@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it>
	<3FE506823231422593844C213EE1AD9D@Catbert>
	<20100518201517.irhku9ljq8g80kcs@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <B2CE48AB27EF40DBBD2AE579B17252EF@spike>

 
> 
> >> When people point the finger to the Moon and say "Look" do 
> you look at the finger?
> >
> > It really depends on which finger... Harvey Newstrom
<www.HarveyNewstrom.com>

Depends even more on which "Moon."

spike




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed May 19 02:00:00 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:00:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/18/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> John Grigg wrote:
>>
>> >An excellent H+ article about how Israel is becoming a center of
>> >transhumanist technologies and thinking.  I admit to finding a great
>> >deal of irony in this development...
>
> Johnny, I am puzzled by your puzzlement sir.  Israel is exactly where I
> would expect to find a center for transhumanist technologies and thinking.
>
> spike

Transhumanism tends to be antagonistic toward religion, and
ironically, Israel and it's people are infused (in one way or another)
with Judaism.  Transhumanists often view religion as a "bad thing,"
but the Jews/Israeli's have their religious legacy as the major reason
for their worldly successes.

And so I am not surprised by Israel's great progress, but in those who
normally disparage religion, and yet idolize this plucky little nation
and it's people.

John


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed May 19 02:19:43 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:19:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting more respect from the courts
Message-ID: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>

This has been a very interesting topic of discussion!  I just wish the
thread subject title had been something along the lines of what I
used.

I'm curious to know how many of you believe an actual biological
reanimation (and not simply a scan & simulation) will be possible at
some point (and if that is preferable to other options).  I'm just not
content with having a copy made.

I'd better be careful or this could lead to one of those
identity/qualia threads that seem to go on forever...  ; )

John


From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 02:39:18 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:39:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com><201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com><86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>
	<AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F466D7F54C5D4EE7AB68112005061748@spike>

> > Johnny, I am puzzled by your puzzlement sir... spike
> 
> Transhumanism tends to be antagonistic toward religion...

Ja.

> And so I am not surprised by Israel's great progress, but in 
> those who normally disparage religion, and yet idolize this 
> plucky little nation and it's people... John

History judges a people by how it uses technology.  I don't care about what
any particular society names its deity, or how it prays.  I do care about
how a society scores in building an orderly society, in how its people
prosper, in fairness and equality in that society, in the level of
individual freedom in that society, and EXPECIALLY, the level of individual
freedom in that society, followed closely by the level of individual freedom
in that society.

Israel scores high in the areas I care about.

In retrospect, it is too bad Israel was set up in the middle east.  After
the war we should have given them Wyoming or Alaska or something.  We have
never used Wyoming for anything useful, and the land is no worse than
Israel.  We could have bought out the approximately four families that live
there, then made that Israel.  The Israelis could have come in there and
made something of the place.

spike







From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 19 03:17:59 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 05:17:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] authors, italian and otherwise
In-Reply-To: <4BF214AE.8040605@satx.rr.com>
References: <3D7F49A9253A4CE88DDF9AC67FE5E0FB@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005180212230.5431@tau.ceti.pl>
	<4BF214AE.8040605@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005190405150.20404@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 17 May 2010, Damien Broderick wrote:

> On 5/17/2010 10:50 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> <lots of good stuff>
> 
> In my ignorance of all those writers and books, I am tempted to suggest 
> as well Stanislaw Lem's HOSPITAL OF THE TRANSFIGURATION. Here's my 
> comments on the book from my study TRANSREALIST FICTION:
> 
> <In his first published novel, Hospital of the Transfiguration,
> Lem's beautifully observed vignettes fold together, with exquisite 
> placement,
> like the elements of a ritual, perhaps an exorcism, holding the past
> even as it purges its unbearable grief. This is territory trodden more
> recently, of course, by such writers as D. M. Thomas and Martin Amis,
> using much the same transgressive apparatus.

Thanks for mentioning Lem, that was very interesting. I've decided to not 
include him in the list, mainly because the list was to be about writers 
(and books) that could help with understanding Poland. So, I went with 
writers, who wrote about specifically Polish subjects. Sometimes, they 
also wrote about bigger things, like Prus' "Faraon" ("Pharaoh") or 
Sienkiewicz' "Quo vadis". But generally, they were doing their work in 
some connection to Poland. Lem, on the contrary, AFAIR only wrote two 
books that can be described as dealing with Poland, that is "Hospital of 
transfiguration" and "High castle", his autobiography. Also, his works put 
him in a class of his own, as kind of citizen of the Universe. Of course, 
he is (was, sadly) a great Polish writer, just not very suitable for this 
time.

Besides, I've alreade written about him, so my feeling was, I would do him 
a disservice by bringing this out again and again.

This is a good moment to add an English-speaking writer and historian, 
Norman Davies. I think he is doing a good job describing problems of this 
region's past (sure, there is also some criticism, but I was never 
interested enough to investigate). I've been able to lay my hands on two 
of his books:

- Mikrokosmos (??- "Microcosm") - it's about history of 
Wroclaw/Breslau/Vratislavia, quite complicated subject somewhat similar to 
this of Gdansk/Danzig one. I've made it through the foreword.

- Powstanie '44 ("Rise 44") - about Warsaw Uprising in 1944 (not to be 
mistaken with Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943 - yes, there were two 
uprisings). I am on page 30 of this 959-page work and so far, so good :-). 
Only I fret a little about English edition - I've heard it was cut a bit 
to make it easier for western readers. So I have somewhat mixed feelings, 
being not sure if I should give it here as worth reading, or something 
else.

There was also Polish historian, Pawel Jasienica, who wrote a lot of 
popular books on our history and has been translated to English too. I am 
still in search of time to read him, but from what I've heard the books 
were good.

Well, the subject is really broad. One other writer I've decided to omit 
was Stanislaw Grzesiuk. He was a colorful figure, in a manner similar to 
Sergiusz Piasecki. His books deal with life of pre-war Warsaw outlaws as 
well as his stay in concentration camps (quite a surprise when I read 
them, they were not what I expected). Only, in contrast to Piasecki, he 
was rather supporting of communism. Or maybe, he expected/hoped it would
help finish the poverty.

And I didn't mention books written by our numerous minorities members - to 
be frank, I can only suspect they've been written but I had no time to 
prove it.

BTW, Grzesiuk was also singing "outlaw folklore" songs as well as playing 
banjola (kind of banjo) and mandolin. Some of it can be found on youtube. 
In Polish. Well... I like his songs, but I am Pole so I am able to grasp 
the words. I am not sure how about other folks :-).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 03:22:58 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:22:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cryonics is getting respect,
	was RE:  Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <B2CE48AB27EF40DBBD2AE579B17252EF@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><4BF1565B.9010900@libero.it><3FE506823231422593844C213EE1AD9D@Catbert><20100518201517.irhku9ljq8g80kcs@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<B2CE48AB27EF40DBBD2AE579B17252EF@spike>
Message-ID: <1D916771E32B456DB2D7037173039C70@spike>

 

Thanks to all for your participation in this timely and relevant discussion,
and to Max and Natasha for giving me a temporary indulgence of allowing
massive overposting on this thread.  

Please, back to our normal voluntary posting limits now, and thanks to every
participant for keeping the discussion of this important matter civil, smart
and on-topic.

Without including any names, I posted a short note over to Alcor, explaining
we had a lively discussion over here of the Richardson case, and that we
mostly concur that lessons were learned, and that what they chose to do was
the second worst thing they could have done, with the worst thing they could
have done being anything else they could have done.

spike


 



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed May 19 03:24:07 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 23:24:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <F466D7F54C5D4EE7AB68112005061748@spike>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>
	<AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<F466D7F54C5D4EE7AB68112005061748@spike>
Message-ID: <201005190326.o4J3Q9ic015721@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>History judges a people by how it uses technology.  I don't care about what
>any particular society names its deity, or how it prays.  I do care about
>how a society scores in building an orderly society, in how its people
>prosper, in fairness and equality in that society, in the level of
>individual freedom in that society, and EXPECIALLY, the level of individual
>freedom in that society, followed closely by the level of individual freedom
>in that society.
>
>Israel scores high in the areas I care about.

This is only very recently, and still not entirely. Until the Likud came
to power (thanks, in small measure, to my father), the country had
been run by the Labour Party for 40+ years, and was socialist in
many exasperating ways.

>In retrospect, it is too bad Israel was set up in the middle east.  After
>the war we should have given them Wyoming or Alaska or something.  We have
>never used Wyoming for anything useful, and the land is no worse than
>Israel.  We could have bought out the approximately four families that live
>there, then made that Israel.  The Israelis could have come in there and
>made something of the place.

If we were to give them a state, surely there are better choices than
two of the three most libertarian in the US. Although, the land (and
underlying mineral wealth) is *far* better than the malarial swamp
that was much of Ottoman Palestine.

I'm not sure which "after the war" you had in mind. WW II, I suppose.
Too late by then. The time to offer would have been right after WW I
or earlier. (There was actually serious consideration of other spots,
notably Uganda.)

All in all, though, if they can steer clear of nuclear exchanges, I think
Israel in the Middle East will prove (from the vantage of future centuries)
to have been critical to the transformation of the Muslim and Arab
worlds. Some of the clues are in the relative success and freedom
of the parts that get along with Israel, e.g., (usually) Jordan and Turkey.


-- David.



From algaenymph at gmail.com  Wed May 19 03:51:55 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:51:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <201005190326.o4J3Q9ic015721@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>	<201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>	<AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>	<F466D7F54C5D4EE7AB68112005061748@spike>
	<201005190326.o4J3Q9ic015721@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4BF3605B.9060409@gmail.com>

David Lubkin wrote:
> Spike wrote:
>> History judges a people by how it uses technology.  I don't care 
>> about what
>> any particular society names its deity, or how it prays.  I do care 
>> about
>> how a society scores in building an orderly society, in how its people
>> prosper, in fairness and equality in that society, in the level of
>> individual freedom in that society, and EXPECIALLY, the level of 
>> individual
>> freedom in that society, followed closely by the level of individual 
>> freedom
>> in that society.
>>
>> Israel scores high in the areas I care about.
> This is only very recently, and still not entirely. Until the Likud came
> to power (thanks, in small measure, to my father), the country had
> been run by the Labour Party for 40+ years, and was socialist in
> many exasperating ways.
Before this becomes another pointless socialism-vs-libertarianism 
back-and-forth, what about the Palestinians?  I'm sure that's what we're 
*really* thinking about when talking about Israel.  Whether they're 
terrorists or woobies, dancing around that demographic reflects badly on us.

Personally, I want to know how to express support for Israel without 
coming across as a right-wing wacko or a spoiledrichwhiteboy.


From moulton at moulton.com  Wed May 19 04:37:53 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (moulton at moulton.com)
Date: 19 May 2010 04:37:53 -0000
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
Message-ID: <20100519043753.72514.qmail@moulton.com>


On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 19:00 -0700, John Grigg wrote:
Transhumanism tends to be antagonistic toward religion, and
> ironically, Israel and it's people are infused (in one way or another)
> with Judaism. 
> 
Well not exactly.  Remember that there are a lot of non-Jews in Israel. And not all Jews are religious. Not to mention the issue of what you mean by Israel; i.e. what is considered the border.

These are very complicated and nuanced issues.  There is one thing that I have seen over the years in mailing lists, blogs, face to face, etc the probability of any discussion of Israel turning into a shouting match or flame war tends to be very high.  Not absolute but very high.

Fred


From moulton at moulton.com  Wed May 19 04:30:36 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (moulton at moulton.com)
Date: 19 May 2010 04:30:36 -0000
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
Message-ID: <20100519043036.65630.qmail@moulton.com>


Before we spiral off into woo woo land can I make the following suggestions:


1. If you are going make a statement about steel please specify exactly which type of steel (composition, form, etc) and if you are referring to melt or yield and how those terms are defined.

2. Present at least two solid, reliable technically competent sources that back up your assertion with full URLs.

3. Find the best source that contradicts your position and provide that URL.  Even if it is a woo woo site at least show that you looked for some other information.

Fred



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 19 07:39:37 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 08:39:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <56AA5D537A5F4B0FA94ED62B319E4F0A@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<FBF2D6EE0B23473EA9779D53B2A463CC@Catbert>
	<56AA5D537A5F4B0FA94ED62B319E4F0A@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil56lBDuHhmy7YOISnzC2xgGnR1qH9Fn5TEXWUr@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/19/10, spike wrote:
>  Thanks Harvey.  I think we are seeing a clear consensus here.  I interpreted
>  the score as much as I could to favor any alternative other than the one I
>  chose, quad 4, yet that course of action still won with a clear 16 points
>  (at least), quad 2 with 4.5 at most, and the other two quadrants, no one
>  could really come up with a vaguely compelling argument, unless one is as
>  charitable and nice as Brent Allsop (I'm not.)
>
>


It's not surprising you are getting split results.

There are two groups present.
Those already signed up to (or supporters of) cryonics, and outsiders.

The point about bad PR is that it only affects outsiders.
Those already heavily committed to cryonics (or any organisation)
ignore bad PR and generally support their club against attacks from
the outside.

The PR for cryonics to the outside world is difficult enough.
But this episode has the world recoiling in horror at the sight of
grave-robbers digging up a putrefying body and chopping the head off.

There are times when doing what you are legally entitled to do is just
not worth it.
Other organisations than cryonics have found this out to their cost.


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 19 08:12:18 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 09:12:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <20100519043036.65630.qmail@moulton.com>
References: <20100519043036.65630.qmail@moulton.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTika2teb3OPo3wa4ofHWROjLddy6m0UPpv1hwD9Z@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/19/10, Fred Moulton  wrote:
>  Before we spiral off into woo woo land can I make the following suggestions:
>
>  1. If you are going make a statement about steel please specify exactly which
> type of steel (composition, form, etc) and if you are referring to melt or yield and
> how those terms are defined.
>
>  2. Present at least two solid, reliable technically competent sources that back
>  up your assertion with full URLs.
>
>  3. Find the best source that contradicts your position and provide that URL.  Even
> if it is a woo woo site at least show that you looked for some other information.
>
>


Nawwwh.  I'd rather use this new Google system.  Much easier.

<http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/05/18/24388/>


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 19 08:45:00 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 09:45:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How to keep your Windows PC secure
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXICCsy8pBNyuc4GoWGGTng2wkUb905jzJQooa@mail.gmail.com>

An updated version of a free downloadable 99-page ebook is now available.

"Internet Safety" is 99 pages and covers "the things you must
do, the software you must run and the concepts you need to be
aware of - to keep your computer and your data safe as you use
the Internet," including firewalls, viruses, spyware, mobile
security, backing up and physical security.


<http://media.ask-leo.com/ebooks/InternetSafety.pdf>


(Or you could run Linux or Apple instead. - But the book is still
worth a read as it explains clearly many of the dangers roaming the
wilds of the internet these days).


BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Wed May 19 11:15:20 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 07:15:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
Message-ID: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:19 PM, John Grigg
<possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm curious to know how many of you believe an actual biological
> reanimation (and not simply a scan & simulation) will be possible at
> some point (and if that is preferable to other options). ?I'm just not
> content with having a copy made.

Firstly, I don't think scanning and simulating a brain is simple.

By reanimation do you mean "simply" thawing and nano-repairing a brain
and implanting it in a cloned body? Or would a nano-constructed
replica from a scan qualify? The latter, of course, would "just" be a
copy.

Personally, I don't care a whole lot about the platform on which my
consciousness is running, as long as it *is* running.

-Dave



From ddraig at gmail.com  Wed May 19 12:49:35 2010
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 22:49:35 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Polish Vienna and other blasphemies :-) (was: two years
	in the slammer for blammisphy?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122236470.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl> 
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl> 
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike> <4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122236470.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikj07p3JUS14OqoQszEhSbnRYv1oVlDp1OPAs97@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 May 2010 08:06, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

>
> Well, Swedes got what they came for, even if they didn't intended to be
> fed with it. They also got what we didn't wanted to give them and took it
> away, back to Sweden :-). But the whole war with them (and their numerous
> allies) was unnecessary and they weakened us a lot. Of course, finally,
> once again, we prevailed. But this time, I feel the price was high. The
> damage they did was so high that we called their invasion the Deluge.
>
>
Subject of a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic movie of the same name,
considered the best mediaeval movie ever made by most re-enactors.
Okay it is not mediaeval but hey, we are desperate for anything historical
and non-crap

I can only find it in polish, though :(

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat
  ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
 http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From ddraig at gmail.com  Wed May 19 13:33:11 2010
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 23:33:11 +1000
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl> 
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl> 
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike> <4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWLJKR4eMCbOYaNSnoxLAlrOd6iY7LhMKu33X3@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/12 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>


> But the Poles now seem to have a successful handle on their economy and are
> will known for their scientific and literary contributions to the world.
> But militarily, they generally have not done so well.  There is a famous
> picture of Polish mounted cavalry lancers (could have been straight out the
> 17th century) fighting Nazi panzer tanks.  What were they thinking? lol
>

My brother knows a guy whose father was in one of the german tank units. The
story he told is that the poles were told that the german tanks were fakes,
wooden bodies on top of car chassis. They galloped at full charge at the
tanks, the germans sitting in them astonished at what they were seeing and
wondering what on EARTH the poles were up to. The officer in charge galloped
up to the lead tank, said "See! Wood!", slashed at the tank with his sabre,
which broke.

He at that point realised that the tank was real, and he had led his men
into a slaughter. At which point he pulled out his pistol and shot himself.
The germans promptly killed all of the poles.

No idea if this is true or not, but it makes more sense than "brave poles
died in futile suicide charge against modern tanks"

Are you sure you have seen a picture? Not just heard a story or seen it in a
movie?

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat
  ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
 http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed May 19 13:51:42 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 08:51:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism:
	Betterthinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <20100519043036.65630.qmail@moulton.com>
References: <20100519043036.65630.qmail@moulton.com>
Message-ID: <674EB1A162424799AB91BD663876AAC1@DFC68LF1>

Thanks Fred for practicing "better thinking about issues". 

Natasha 


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
moulton at moulton.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 11:31 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism:
Betterthinking about issues


Before we spiral off into woo woo land can I make the following suggestions:


1. If you are going make a statement about steel please specify exactly
which type of steel (composition, form, etc) and if you are referring to
melt or yield and how those terms are defined.

2. Present at least two solid, reliable technically competent sources that
back up your assertion with full URLs.

3. Find the best source that contradicts your position and provide that URL.
Even if it is a woo woo site at least show that you looked for some other
information.

Fred

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 19 13:57:43 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:57:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimWLJKR4eMCbOYaNSnoxLAlrOd6iY7LhMKu33X3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com>
	<73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimWLJKR4eMCbOYaNSnoxLAlrOd6iY7LhMKu33X3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTint0OuPxmZUM3dxkX-T71mb7YvHWhMWkz4wTHnT@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/19/10, ddraig wrote:
> My brother knows a guy whose father was in one of the german tank units. The
> story he told is that the poles were told that the german tanks were fakes,
> wooden bodies on top of car chassis. They galloped at full charge at the
> tanks, the germans sitting in them astonished at what they were seeing and
> wondering what on EARTH the poles were up to. The officer in charge galloped
> up to the lead tank, said "See! Wood!", slashed at the tank with his sabre,
> which broke.
>
> He at that point realised that the tank was real, and he had led his men
> into a slaughter. At which point he pulled out his pistol and shot himself.
> The germans promptly killed all of the poles.
>
> No idea if this is true or not, but it makes more sense than "brave poles
> died in futile suicide charge against modern tanks"
>
> Are you sure you have seen a picture? Not just heard a story or seen it in a
> movie?
>
>


Wikipedia says it was all made up for Nazi war propaganda.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry>

On 1 September 2009 Sir Simon Jenkins accused Poles of "the most
romantic and idiotic act of suicide of modern war."  On 21 September
2009, The Guardian was forced to publish an admission that his article
"repeated a myth of the second world war, fostered by Nazi
propagandists, when it said that Polish lancers turned their horses to
face Hitler's panzers. There is no evidence that this occurred."
---------------------------


(But everybody likes death or glory myths, don't they?).


BillK


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed May 19 13:55:31 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 06:55:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting more respect from the courts
In-Reply-To: <mailman.378.1274254784.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <86598.26760.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

> This has been a very interesting topic of discussion!?
> I just wish the
> thread subject title had been something along the lines of
> what I
> used.
> 
> I'm curious to know how many of you believe an actual
> biological
> reanimation (and not simply a scan & simulation) will
> be possible at
> some point (and if that is preferable to other
> options).? I'm just not
> content with having a copy made.
> 
> I'd better be careful or this could lead to one of those
> identity/qualia threads that seem to go on forever...?


I think it likely that at some point biological reanimation may well be an option, but it wouldn't be my preference.  What would be the point of being revived in the same kind of fragile meatbody when a much more useful, versatile and robust existence is possible sooner and with less effort?

This position assumes a few things, of course, but I think all of them are fairly reasonable:

1) Uploading is indeed possible.
2) Recreation or repair of an entire biological body around an existing possibly damaged brain will be harder than scanning and uploading, and will come first.
3) The dreaded 'identity problem' is not a problem at all.

If 1) and/or 2) above are wrong, I suppose biological reanimation would be better than nothing, but I'd be a bit disappointed if, after dying, I woke up and was still made of meat.

Re. "I'm just not content with having a copy made", I'd regard a destructive scan as being a 'move', not a 'copy', and would be perfectly happy with it, but I agree with John that we'd better not open that can of mouldy old worms.  It's well past it's sell-by date.  (Is it too much to hope that people can state their preferences without sparking off another fruitless argument?  Perhaps the moderators could lay down some guidelines for this).

Ben Zaiboc


      



From ddraig at gmail.com  Wed May 19 14:26:34 2010
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 00:26:34 +1000
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTint0OuPxmZUM3dxkX-T71mb7YvHWhMWkz4wTHnT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike> 
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com> <73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimWLJKR4eMCbOYaNSnoxLAlrOd6iY7LhMKu33X3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTint0OuPxmZUM3dxkX-T71mb7YvHWhMWkz4wTHnT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikY8WxH4Fw-6nhPjz6OWkvBDD3GN2YZke07XRwI@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2010 23:57, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> (But everybody likes death or glory myths, don't they?).
>


Well, the version I recounted is more of a "foolish military intel story"

I wonder if my brother is still in touch with the guy who told him the
story.

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat
  ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
 http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 19 15:08:06 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:08:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Polish Vienna and other blasphemies :-) (was: two years
 in the slammer for blammisphy?)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikj07p3JUS14OqoQszEhSbnRYv1oVlDp1OPAs97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com> <73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005122236470.24560@tau.ceti.pl>
	<AANLkTikj07p3JUS14OqoQszEhSbnRYv1oVlDp1OPAs97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005191621210.5162@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 19 May 2010, ddraig wrote:

> On 13 May 2010 08:06, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, Swedes got what they came for, even if they didn't intended to be
> > fed with it. They also got what we didn't wanted to give them and took it
> > away, back to Sweden :-). But the whole war with them (and their numerous
> > allies) was unnecessary and they weakened us a lot. Of course, finally,
> > once again, we prevailed. But this time, I feel the price was high. The
> > damage they did was so high that we called their invasion the Deluge.
> >
> >
> Subject of a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic movie of the same name,
> considered the best mediaeval movie ever made by most re-enactors.
> Okay it is not mediaeval but hey, we are desperate for anything historical
> and non-crap
> 
> I can only find it in polish, though :(
> 
> Dwayne

Hello, Dwayne,

I think there are some subs for Potop/Deluge, but I am unsure of their 
quality. I was also able to spot the whole Trilogy on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Jerzy-Hoffman-Trilogy-Sienkiewicz/dp/B0001Z4PRS

(is it ok if I post it here?). It's not cheap but according to 
description, it is almost 19 hours of nice stuff. I have watched it (in 
Polish TV actually) and Hoffman did marvels, IMHO.

For something more medieval, you might like "Krzyzacy" ("The knights of 
Teutonic Order") by Aleksander Ford, based on Sienkiewicz' book:

http://www.amazon.com/Krzyzacy-NTSC-Knights-Teutonic-Order/dp/B000DZC23K

Both seem to have rather good ratings, just in case (I rate them as 
great).

There is also something watchable on newer times (all by Andrzej Wajda):

"Pan Tadeusz" - based on Adam Mickiewicz' epic poem (Napoleonic era, great 
costumes!)

http://www.amazon.com/Pan-Tadeusz-Boguslaw-Linda/dp/B00074CC2I

"Promised Land" - based on Wladyslaw Reymont' book (beginnings of 
capitalism and industrialisation, very interesting)

http://www.amazon.com/Promised-Land-Directors-Daniel-Olbrychski/dp/B0000AZKJU

"Katyn" - a very sad story of murder of Polish prisoners of war, in 1940.

http://www.amazon.com/Katyn-Artur-Amijewski/dp/B0028YW3CE

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed May 19 16:49:28 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:49:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Temperature and formaldehyde
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinpBt6VPvJ_KVH3Vu4D8ZhdmYseS1WoyUwoakcu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmuQpu0KY8ElLG05WKN2oHx-RvORyIvRlZw7mB@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiluShzsUUgc1dubYu7r1wbdAA6eGLJefeFub2Bi@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinpBt6VPvJ_KVH3Vu4D8ZhdmYseS1WoyUwoakcu@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikuXTPP9tVbet01uUd0NaWventoBp9mm5TMSLIv@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 May 2010 21:17, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why should one who can choose to be embalmed not be allowed to choose
>> to be frozen instead?
>
> No reason other than a sort of cultural xenophobia.

"Frozen" suggesting coldness and "embalmed" suggesting, well, a
balming effect? :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed May 19 16:50:59 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:50:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [transhumanistes] Le Transhumanisme sur France Culture :
	Place de la toile, ven. 11 juin, 11h
In-Reply-To: <hsuj9a+o7c1@eGroups.com>
References: <hsuj9a+o7c1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilvtxFnzp2HgIGmx5CXVtwLzhvzo9iW5XVallTC@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Roux <marcroux at yahoo.com>
Date: 2010/5/18
Subject: [transhumanistes] Le Transhumanisme sur France Culture : Place de
la toile, ven. 11 juin, 11h
To: transhumanistes at yahoogroupes.fr




Bonsoir ? tous,

Je suis en mesure de vous confirmer maintenant une nouvelle int?ressante.
Nous sommes invit?s, R?mi Sussan et moi-m?me, ? participer ? l'*?mission
"Place de la toile", en direct sur France Culture le vendredi 11 juin ? 11h*
.
Le th?me de l'?mission sera "le Transhumanisme" !

Il n'est pas interdit de diffuser cette information ;-)

A+
Marc
 __._,_.___
  R?pondre ? exp?diteur<marcroux at yahoo.com?subject=Le+Transhumanisme+sur+France+Culture+%3A+Place+de+la+toile,+ven.+11+juin,+11h>|
R?pondre
? groupe<transhumanistes at yahoogroupes.fr?subject=Le+Transhumanisme+sur+France+Culture+%3A+Place+de+la+toile,+ven.+11+juin,+11h>|
R?pondre
en mode Web<http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/transhumanistes/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwcDU3dm5pBF9TAzk3NDkwNDY4BGdycElkAzIxMTg0NjM4BGdycHNwSWQDMjEyMzgwMjE3NARtc2dJZAM3NzIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMjc0MjA0Mjcy?act=reply&messageNum=772>|
Nouvelle
discussion<http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/transhumanistes/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbTM0aWVoBF9TAzk3NDkwNDY4BGdycElkAzIxMTg0NjM4BGdycHNwSWQDMjEyMzgwMjE3NARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyNzQyMDQyNzI->
Toute la discussion<http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/transhumanistes/message/772;_ylc=X3oDMTMzMW03cWgyBF9TAzk3NDkwNDY4BGdycElkAzIxMTg0NjM4BGdycHNwSWQDMjEyMzgwMjE3NARtc2dJZAM3NzIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjc0MjA0MjcyBHRwY0lkAzc3Mg-->(
1)
 Activit?s r?centes:

   - Nouveaux membres<http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/transhumanistes/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJnbmFicTVmBF9TAzk3NDkwNDY4BGdycElkAzIxMTg0NjM4BGdycHNwSWQDMjEyMzgwMjE3NARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMjc0MjA0Mjcy?o=6>
   1

 Aller sur votre
groupe<http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/transhumanistes;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdjBnZWo3BF9TAzk3NDkwNDY4BGdycElkAzIxMTg0NjM4BGdycHNwSWQDMjEyMzgwMjE3NARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyNzQyMDQyNzI->
 [image: Yahoo!
Groupes]<http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGxlbTFkBF9TAzk3NDkwNDY2BGdycElkAzIxMTg0NjM4BGdycHNwSWQDMjEyMzgwMjE3NARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTI3NDIwNDI3Mg-->
Passer ? : Texte
seulement<transhumanistes-traditional at yahoogroupes.fr?subject=Changer+le+format+%3A+Traditionnel>,
R??sum?? du jour<transhumanistes-digest at yahoogroupes.fr?subject=Messages+du+groupe+%3A+R%C3%83%C2%A9sum%C3%83%C2%A9>?
D?sinscription<transhumanistes-desabonnement at yahoogroupes.fr?subject=D%C3%A9sinscription>?
Conditions
d?utilisation <http://fr.docs.yahoo.com/info/utos.html>
   .

__,_._,___



-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed May 19 16:59:56 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:59:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimnGYqHsRxNeaqlwd-of6nt4QHnhVjl5EJlb-Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2010 01:11, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> An excellent H+ article about how Israel is becoming a center of
> transhumanist technologies and thinking. ?I admit to finding a great
> deal of irony in this development.
>
> Next up, the state of Utah and the Mormon faith? hee
>
> http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/politics/israel%E2%80%99s-value-transhumanism

I haven't read the article yet, but while Israel used to be, according
to an old poll, the country the most hostile to eugenics (the most
favourable was India, btw, and I suspect that the respective dominant
religions may have something to do with that), for other aspects
Israel has been for a long time on the forefront, keeping in mind its
size, of strategic techs, not to mention special schools for gifted
indivuals, etc.

And, Mormons AFAIK are probably the christian confession with the most
vibrant transhumanist community. There again, I believe that it may
have to do with their more or less radical departure from a number of
tenets of other monotheistic persuasions.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 19 17:16:06 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:16:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [transhumanistes] Le Transhumanisme sur France
	Culture : Place de la toile, ven. 11 juin, 11h
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilvtxFnzp2HgIGmx5CXVtwLzhvzo9iW5XVallTC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hsuj9a+o7c1@eGroups.com>
	<AANLkTilvtxFnzp2HgIGmx5CXVtwLzhvzo9iW5XVallTC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimlYIDr-yidVExwk8tGLP6WTwjJ4z5g7Bg_6NVO@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/19 Stefano Vaj  wrote:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Roux <marcroux at yahoo.com>
> Date: 2010/5/18
> Subject: [transhumanistes] Le Transhumanisme sur France Culture : Place de la toile, ven. 11 juin, 11h
> To: transhumanistes at yahoogroupes.fr
>
>
> Bonsoir ? tous,
> Je suis en mesure de vous confirmer maintenant une nouvelle int?ressante.
> Nous sommes invit?s, R?mi Sussan et moi-m?me, ? participer ? l'?mission
> "Place de la toile", en direct sur France Culture le vendredi 11 juin ? 11h.
> Le th?me de l'?mission sera "le Transhumanisme" !
>
> Il n'est pas interdit de diffuser cette information ;-)
>
> A+
> Marc
>
>

Hey everyone,

I am now able to confirm some interesting news.
We have been invited, Remi Sussan and myself, to participate in the
program "Place of the canvas", live on France Culture Friday, June 11
at 11am.
The theme of the show will be "Transhumanist"!

It is not forbidden to disseminate this information ;-)

A +
Marc Roux



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed May 19 17:17:03 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:17:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/18 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:

> Quadrant four. Exactly what Alcor did. For several reasons.
> First and foremost, it was what the customer wanted and paid me for.
>
> False.? They paid you for a chance at future life.? Not to freeze whatever
> remnant of fresh even if it is utterly hopeless to be any more than a
> symbolic act.

### This is incorrect, Samantha. The contract usually signed with
Alcor (such as mine) doesn't say many specifics about future life but
very specifically describes what is to be done if my brain is
considered to be non-recoverably destroyed. I paid for what the
contract says - hopes of future life are not directly a part of the
contract. If Mr Richardson's contract says he wanted his remains to be
frozen regardless of their condition, then that it what he paid for,
and that is what Alcor should strive to achieve.

-----------------------------------------
>
> It is not about what is done with "remains" but about the possibility of
> preserving enough fast enough for possible further life.? It is not about
> disposal of truly dead.? It may look like that in current legal terms but
> that was not the intend of the person in signing up and I think we all know
> this.
>
### How do you presume to know Mr Richardson't intent?

Rafal



From sparge at gmail.com  Wed May 19 17:20:35 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:20:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [transhumanistes] Le Transhumanisme sur France
	Culture : Place de la toile, ven. 11 juin, 11h
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimlYIDr-yidVExwk8tGLP6WTwjJ4z5g7Bg_6NVO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hsuj9a+o7c1@eGroups.com>
	<AANLkTilvtxFnzp2HgIGmx5CXVtwLzhvzo9iW5XVallTC@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimlYIDr-yidVExwk8tGLP6WTwjJ4z5g7Bg_6NVO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinbpjh05-brE8qBqEsOhwySGbp8ceuVwkp3DsW8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:16 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Place of the canvas"

Gmail translated it as "Square canvas".

-Dave


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed May 19 17:46:08 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:46:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF423E0.2050901@satx.rr.com>

On 5/19/2010 12:17 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

> The contract usually signed with
> Alcor (such as mine) doesn't say many specifics about future life but
> very specifically describes what is to be done if my brain is
> considered to be non-recoverably destroyed.

And what is that? And considered by whom, on what basis? (If this is not 
too intrusive and personal a question, since you imply that it can 
change from one contract to another.)

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed May 19 17:49:27 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:49:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [transhumanistes] Le Transhumanisme sur
 France	Culture : Place de la toile, ven. 11 juin, 11h
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinbpjh05-brE8qBqEsOhwySGbp8ceuVwkp3DsW8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hsuj9a+o7c1@eGroups.com>	<AANLkTilvtxFnzp2HgIGmx5CXVtwLzhvzo9iW5XVallTC@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimlYIDr-yidVExwk8tGLP6WTwjJ4z5g7Bg_6NVO@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinbpjh05-brE8qBqEsOhwySGbp8ceuVwkp3DsW8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF424A7.9000405@satx.rr.com>

On 5/19/2010 12:20 PM, Dave Sill wrote:
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:16 PM, BillK<pharos at gmail.com>  wrote:

>> >  "Place of the canvas"
>
> Gmail translated it as "Square canvas".

I suspect this might be a poststructural term: Site of the Canvas. 
(Although perhaps that would just be Site...)

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 19 17:57:59 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:57:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [transhumanistes] Le Transhumanisme sur France
	Culture : Place de la toile, ven. 11 juin, 11h
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinbpjh05-brE8qBqEsOhwySGbp8ceuVwkp3DsW8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hsuj9a+o7c1@eGroups.com>
	<AANLkTilvtxFnzp2HgIGmx5CXVtwLzhvzo9iW5XVallTC@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimlYIDr-yidVExwk8tGLP6WTwjJ4z5g7Bg_6NVO@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinbpjh05-brE8qBqEsOhwySGbp8ceuVwkp3DsW8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilAGfxWPkukMm05wEptg5hFOCb6iDlLr4A_ZLZj@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Dave Sill  wrote:
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:16 PM, BillK  wrote:
>> "Place of the canvas"
>
> Gmail translated it as "Square canvas".
>
>


Oh alright. You made me look it up.

A better translation is literally 'Place of the Web'.
Colloqially, The Internet Place or the Web Spot.

Description:
In September 2007, the radio station France Culture innovates with a
new weekly reflection on the Internet and other networks:


BillK


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed May 19 18:06:10 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:06:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF423E0.2050901@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF423E0.2050901@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7MLm1yGYSn64RheqqBzXSPfy6BrvkK-41rHel@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 5/19/2010 12:17 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> The contract usually signed with
>> Alcor (such as mine) doesn't say many specifics about future life but
>> very specifically describes what is to be done if my brain is
>> considered to be non-recoverably destroyed.
>
> And what is that? And considered by whom, on what basis? (If this is not too
> intrusive and personal a question, since you imply that it can change from
> one contract to another.)

### IIRC, I signed up to be frozen no matter what is the condition of
the brain but did not opt for freezing non-neural tissue for possible
cloning. One of the reasons I chose this option is to avoid the moral
hazard inherent in setting a limit on the need for freezing - I don't
want Alcor or others to give up too quickly. Also, the Richardson
scenario passed my mind too, and I don't want anybody to hope that
delaying suspension would prevent it - thus any rational agent who is
against my suspension but knows delaying tactics won't work will not
try them in the first place (I don't hope to influence the irrational
ones).

Rafal


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed May 19 18:59:07 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:59:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] two years in the slammer for blammisphy?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTint0OuPxmZUM3dxkX-T71mb7YvHWhMWkz4wTHnT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D7052BE1BE444078A10E55632F8171B@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005110249530.14389@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00AA764618844BF5B71D1F361051A2D9@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1005111749210.5990@tau.ceti.pl>
	<D7C2A5EA35B04B9085FE5135BB77DBED@spike>
	<4BE9A660.2040808@satx.rr.com> <73BB256B0EB749C2AA2D4A6483A0AEA5@spike>
	<201005112134.o4BLYD1K022144@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTil6m5c7xSPQ0KB3j_lzoUgFV1qeK6mYLnIwDrPv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimWLJKR4eMCbOYaNSnoxLAlrOd6iY7LhMKu33X3@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTint0OuPxmZUM3dxkX-T71mb7YvHWhMWkz4wTHnT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1005191711480.5162@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 19 May 2010, BillK wrote:

> On 5/19/10, ddraig wrote:
> > My brother knows a guy whose father was in one of the german tank units. The
> > story he told is that the poles were told that the german tanks were fakes,
> > wooden bodies on top of car chassis. They galloped at full charge at the
> > tanks, the germans sitting in them astonished at what they were seeing and
> > wondering what on EARTH the poles were up to. The officer in charge galloped
> > up to the lead tank, said "See! Wood!", slashed at the tank with his sabre,
> > which broke.
> >
> > He at that point realised that the tank was real, and he had led his men
> > into a slaughter. At which point he pulled out his pistol and shot himself.
> > The germans promptly killed all of the poles.
> >
> > No idea if this is true or not, but it makes more sense than "brave poles
> > died in futile suicide charge against modern tanks"
> >
> > Are you sure you have seen a picture? Not just heard a story or seen it in a
> > movie?
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Wikipedia says it was all made up for Nazi war propaganda.
> 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry>

Thanks, BillK. I was just yesterday wondering if I would have an occasion 
to mention it :-).

Oh my, wooden tanks?

First of all, this is how I imagine it:

1. The wooden tanks could be (more or less) easily finished off with 
mortars and heavy machine guns from as far away as 500m, I believe. Not to 
forget about sniper rifle with incendiary ammo :-).

2. If this wouldn't work (proving they were harder than wood), they could 
be "tried" with our unique anti-tank rifle wz. 35 at distances starting 
from 300m (at this point, it was effective against PzI and some PzII, that 
is, against about half - or maybe more - of German tanks used in Poland in 
1939). At 100m it was able to penetrate 30mm armour. German tanks of the 
era had 7-30mm armours and Soviet had 15-20mm. After the September, it had 
been captured by Germans in some quantity and used by their parachutists 
during Benelux invasion and after that it went on to Italian army and was 
used by them everywhere. Italian instruction gives it ability to penetrate 
40mm armour from 100m.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._35_anti-tank_rifle

3. In a case that Kb ur did not manage, we still had anti tank 37mm Bofors 
gun. Although it started to show its age before the war, it was still 
usefull against what Germans and Soviets had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_37_mm

Actually, a 20mm anti aircraft gun was usefull, too. Go figure.

Bofors could do a lot of good things to enemy tanks as far away as 4000m. 
But, let's agree its use was practical starting from 1000m. It is said to 
penetrate 40mm armour from 100m.

Next, when exactly this whole story is supposed to have taken place? We 
were "doing tanks" from the very beginning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mokra

As one can see, our cavalry (as well as infantry) could engage German 
panzers and were a good match to them. However, as our situation went 
worse and our resources depleted, this wasn't as good anymore. But at that 
time, everybody should have already known tanks were not made of wood, eh?

As of this "wooden tanks" thing. I can hardly imagine anybody in the Army 
believed this. I mean, ok, a number of people considered Hitler to be nut, 
especially if he planned to attack Poland and provoking France and Great 
Britain to help us (this was guaranteed on paper by them, as well as our 
help if he attacked them first). Well, he knew better, didn't he? But, 
nobody considered him to be such a big nut as to using wooden tanks in 
real fight - and do what, laughing us to the death?

Sorry man, I am not attacking you personally, nor your relatives, their 
friends and so on, but so long, the story doesn't hold water.

Our intelligence was quite good at this time (and remainded to be such 
until very recently - there is not much published from newer times, so 
nothing to be talked about). A good image of what could be done are books 
of Sergiusz Piasecki, for example. He was fluent in Belarussian and 
Russian (how else, he learnt them at home) and he was able to penetrate 
deeply into Soviet Union, posing as a technician, working as radio and 
telegraph operator on Soviet post office etc. He also had a number of 
friends that had been left "on the other side", so he could simply get in 
touch and ask for help with getting legal papers etc.

The other interesting example, albeit more anecdotical one, was work of 
Stefan Witkowski, engineer, inventor and, it seems, very talented intel 
officer. Back in 1939 or 1940, he created intel-oriented underground group 
under the name of Musketeers. He himself is told to frequently travel into 
Germany and further West, pretending to be baron August von Thierbach, SS 
officer (he was apparently visiting our cells there). His coworker of the 
same organisation, Kazimierz Leski, went on a trip to France in 1941, 
posing as Wehrmacht Lieutnant (but later he decided he should be promoted 
to be able to travel in a first class - he had been recovering from 
wounds at a time - so he "promoted" himself to the rank of Generalmajor). 
In 1942, as General Julius von Halmann, he had been invited by a "fellow" 
German general to inspect Atlantic Wall, line of fortifications being 
built in France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Leski

Most of the account and achievements of those brave people are forgotten 
and lost. They never had much publicity for obvious reasons, and besides, 
there wasn't many people who would like to show them to the public (here 
we get into sucking marshes of politics). I would even go as far as to 
say, there was a tendency to downplay the whole story of Polish 
intelligence, because there wasn't much that downplayers could show as 
their own successes.

Downplayers were, not fools, however. For example, they promptly used V1 
and V2 parts retrieved by Home Army from German proving grounds, but 
choosed to ignore reports on Katyn massacre or concentration camps (at 
least for some time, they probably were convinced that "those Poles are 
making this all up").

A good example is Jan Karski, who voluntarily went to Warsaw Ghetto as 
well as to a concentration camp, to witness the situation there and serve 
as information source (but there wasn't much interest in his story, it 
seems):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Army_and_V1_and_V2

Similarly, there was one writer, Gustaw Herling-Grudzinski, who survived 
few years in Soviet gulag and described his experiences in a book "Inny 
swiat" ("A world apart"). Whatever he wrote, had been downplayed by some
western critics, because as Pole, he was supposed to lie about Russians 
(surprise me more). Until Aleksander Solzhenitsyn wrote his own books, 
giving very similar description and finally forcing those Soviet lackeys 
to accept the truth.

In rare cases where those men survived the war and lived long enough, 
there are some written accounts given by them. In other cases, all that is 
left are military archives, sometimes incomplete, and anecdotical evidence 
(as in case of Stefan Witkowski, who has been shot in uncertain 
circumstances).

So, I believe, we were very well informed about what Germans really had. 
As well as what Soviets could do (not much more than in 1920, it seems). I 
mean, if we were able to establish a network of agents during WW2, guess 
what was possible before this. Also, some other clues, like production of 
our new anti tank 47mm gun planned to start in 1940, show that we were 
expecting to use it on something heavier than old furniture.

On the other hand, western diplomats seem to have been scared to shit by 
Stalin-made performances showing Soviet might and force. I don't deny they 
could look great during exercises but this wasn't proved later on, as 
history shows us. A great look not always lives up to its promise, and 
lowly look of cavalry not always means grown-ups fantasising about their 
superhuman bullet-catching abilities. And a lot of German tanks could have 
been engaged and put off (and were) by a well prepared infantry. But we 
don't hear stories about Polish infantry trying to fight off tanks with 
their bayonets, do we?

> (But everybody likes death or glory myths, don't they?).

Depends... If it makes you look like some kind of suicidal jerk, only 
good to be LOLed at...

Just in case anybody would like to tell another story like this, please be 
more specific, would you? Give more details, the minimum I want is date of 
event (doesn't have to be very exact) and what type of tank was involved. 
If someone was driving a tank, I would expect him to know it's name at least 
(not to mention some other data, like armour, armament or how many crew 
members total there was inside).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed May 19 20:33:29 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:33:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimEQRlKrIDouEA-lDpglauhXnoqWHWbeSY3P0Bn@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:46 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

<Snip a whole bunch of nifty sciencey stuff about water, ice, butter, and steel>

> So perhaps part of the reason trutherism got so much mileage is due to the  rumor .....

Read the article, Spike.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html?full=true

The proposed explanation suggests it's an
emotional-need-driven-human-irrationality thing, not a
misunderstanding-of-fact thing.

Always good to hear from you, buddy.

Best, Jeff Davis

       "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                            Ray Charles


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed May 19 21:02:19 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:02:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike> <4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com>
	<4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimmC6W2O6YLDPacCCh5HXnydvvQHw2Q2qHtOeTG@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:35 PM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> It does not burn hot enough to melt

Yes.

> or significantly weaken skyscraper  still.

Wrong.  It does, it did, the columns deformed, the buildings came down.

>?That is a fact.

No, that is your overconfident misinformed notion .  The collapse of
the towers and building seven, that is fact.

>?It has been proven

Unsourced misinformed overconfidence.

> even in fires that burned much
> longer for 24 hours.

Building seven came down before the end of the day.  Historical empirical fact.

My g*d, your not a "truther" are you Samantha?!!!

>?Steel does not become like warm butter at those temperatures.

No, it becomes like hot steel: softer, weaker.

You need to read the article, Samantha.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html?full=true

You're over -the-top unwarranted certitude is a prime symptom of the
phenomenon the article addresses.

?Best, Jeff Davis

        "The whole problem with the world is that fools
                and fanatics are always so certain of themselves,
                             and wiser people so full of doubts."

                                                     Bertrand Russell



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed May 19 21:05:34 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:05:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEQRlKrIDouEA-lDpglauhXnoqWHWbeSY3P0Bn@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
	<AANLkTimEQRlKrIDouEA-lDpglauhXnoqWHWbeSY3P0Bn@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiknhZBKHINmXiEquMkjKBUrRvwgkZfoJNDolM-i@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:46 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> <Snip a whole bunch of nifty sciencey stuff about water, ice, butter, and steel>
>
>> So perhaps part of the reason trutherism got so much mileage is due to the ?rumor .....
>
> Read the article, Spike.
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html?full=true
>
> The proposed explanation suggests it's an
> emotional-need-driven-human-irrationality thing, not a
> misunderstanding-of-fact thing.

### I'd say it's a herd-assisted displacement of primordial emotional
needs and drives (e.g. expiation, moral signaling, fear of the
unknown, fear of pollution) into a quasi-physical belief system ("the
world is going to fry"), and as such it prompts rejections of any
reports of physical facts at odds with the underlying emotional needs.

Rafal



From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 21:07:42 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:07:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7MLm1yGYSn64RheqqBzXSPfy6BrvkK-41rHel@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike><462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com><AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com><4BF423E0.2050901@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTik7MLm1yGYSn64RheqqBzXSPfy6BrvkK-41rHel@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8E8599A2C1C9459CA00DAD163BDDEDDC@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki

>... Also, the Richardson 
> scenario passed my mind too, and I don't want anybody to hope 
> that delaying suspension would prevent it - thus any rational 
> agent who is against my suspension but knows delaying tactics 
> won't work will not try them in the first place... Rafal


After all the yakkity yak and bla bla, our own Dr. Smigrodzki comes up with
a novel twist, which I feel should be added to the reasoning matrix nearly
verbatim.  We had already that quad 4 (and 2) demotivates those who would
prevent suspension for profit motives, but Rafal's notion is that quad 4
(and possibly 3) would demotivate those who oppose suspension for
non-monetary (possibly religious) reasons, who may try to intentionally
delay suspension long enough to get Alcor to give up.

Good show Rafal!

spike




From jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov  Wed May 19 21:25:31 2010
From: jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jim Stevenson)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:25:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text was Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
Message-ID: <201005192125.o4JLPVxC023456@eos.arc.nasa.gov>

Hi.


Is the attached html really of any use to those who read with speech?

--

Please answer in plain text, not mime attached html.

Thanks much again as always.
Jim

Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
and are using its features.

Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
under which OS, and why?
I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end,
though your mail program may hide them from you.
This is why others may not have pointed out the mime attached html problem.

Your mime attached html post, which I have appended,
is exactly what I received.

Are you using html to display anything other than plain text?
Unless you really are using the html features,
the defaults should be set to both post and answer in plain text,
or uuencode, if plain text is not an option.
your answer mode should also be set to
answer in plain text, or answer in uuencode,
not to answer in kind.

I am most concerned about viruses in unintended attachments.

If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
I have already listened to mine.

I read email with speech,
So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes 
without listening to them again,
and the mime code after the header is not speech friendly.
to quickly get to the new information.
The mime attached html is far from speech friendly!

--

Thanks much again as always.


>From extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org  Mon May 17 09:54:01 2010
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Subject: [ExI] Social aim for Transhumanism:  Better thinking about issues
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Transhumanists can help to fill the gap between living in denial and living
with knowledge.  There are many transhumanist papers and articles that
address how to think intelligently and why rational is necessary.  This is a
reminder that we need more exposure in this area:
 
http://www.newscientist.com/special/living-in-denial
 

Nlogo1.tif  <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN =
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There are many transhumanist papers and articles that address how to =
think=20
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that we=20
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial><A=20
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 21:56:31 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:56:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism:
	Betterthinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEQRlKrIDouEA-lDpglauhXnoqWHWbeSY3P0Bn@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1><AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com><73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
	<AANLkTimEQRlKrIDouEA-lDpglauhXnoqWHWbeSY3P0Bn@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D63CFB0FA1CD4242A81A9751EFF45B4D@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...
> 
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:46 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> <Snip a whole bunch of nifty sciencey stuff about water, ice, 
> butter, and steel>
> 
> > So perhaps part of the reason trutherism got so much 
> mileage is due to the  rumor .....
> 
> Read the article, Spike.
> 
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-d
> enial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html?full=true
> 
> The proposed explanation suggests it's an 
> emotional-need-driven-human-irrationality thing, not a 
> misunderstanding-of-fact thing.
> 
> Always good to hear from you, buddy.
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis

Ja, hi Jeff, actually I read the article, and I should have made it clear I
was not refuting it or even disagreeing, but rather offering an alternative
perspective in this case.  This is an area in which I take great interest,
for it is very closely linked to cognitive dissonance.  Michael Schermer
wrote an excellent book on cognitive dissonance called "Why People Believe
Weird Things."

I am interested in the phenomenon of cognitive dissonance because of my
observation of how some (almost all) people can tolerate it far better than
I can.  When I was religious, I saw evidence all around me of evolution.
Everywhere I looked was more and more and more evidence.  I marveled at how
my compatriots could ignore or dismiss it, yet still go on with their lives
as if they did not know they were seeing direct contradictory evidence to
their most fundamental belief superstructure.  I nearly went crazier because
of seeing knock-out clear evidence for evolution while I was still a
creationist.  Crazier!  I was holding two mutually exclusive beliefs
simultaneously and I knew it.  I cannot tolerate cognitive dissonance.

Regarding cognitive dissonance and the conspiracy notions on the WTC attack,
we have at least one really good example that I know of where there had to
be a conspiracy.  In 2004, apparently some non-quakers hid weapons in a
Beslan school while it was under construction.  Then later, the non-quakers
came into the school, retrieved the weapons, took hostages, slew many
children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

This is a perfectly clear example of a conspiracy, for it would have taken
several guys to do that, and it never leaked.  Oy.

Of course the simultaneous hijacking of four aircraft required a conspiracy.

Nowthen, if we wish to theorize a conspiracy on the WTC buildings, do let me
take it from an engineer's perspective.  I was as shocked as anyone that an
airplane could cause a fire hot enough to collapse a tall building.  I never
would have thought that possible.  If you ever get a chance to look at how
skyscrapers are built, you come away with the notion that god couldn't knock
one over.

A group of suspected non-Seventh Day Adventists attacked the WTC with
explosives in 1994, but of course the building was not impressed.  So we
could at least imagine these non-Methodists deciding to try to get access to
the internal structure of the building to set explosive charges mounted
directly to the superstructure.  But if they had done that, it isn't clear
to me why they needed the airplanes.

To extend the previous notion regarding the behavior of structural steel, on
April 29, 2007 a fuel truck crashed beneath a local freeway overpass, which
was constructed entirely of concrete and steel.  The heat from that fire
caused the structure to collapse:

http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-04-29/bay-area/17239903_1_tanker-truck-roadw
ay-firefighters
 
Other anecdotal evidence: in my misspent youth, I help rebuild an engine in
which a hole had developed in the radiator, causing the coolant to escape.
The silly prole kept driving until the engine seized.  The exhaust valves
were not *melted* exactly, but they were deformed under heat and stress.  So
I laboriously reseated the new valves, but the engine was still never worth
a damn because the valve seats were also deformed, and the seal was no good.

At the end of the day when the blacksmith goes home, the horseshoes have
changed shape considerably, but the hammer and the anvil have not.  All
three are made of the same material.

Again, take a piece of quarter inch rebar and a plumbers torch.  Hold both
ends and heat the rebar in the middle.  Bend.  Notice you get a tight bend
right at the hot spot, and no bend at all a short distance either side.

I have personally seen a campfire hot enough to deform steel cans, when a
strong steady wind blows and a bunch of yahoos brought more firewood than
any decent person should have ever owned, and they want to burn it all.

With those observations, I concluded that an airplane fire could indeed burn
hot enough to drop a skyscraper, and that the explosive charge conspiracy
and the airplane conspiracy were in a sense mutually exclusive: if you had
one you wouldn't need the other.

So the official explanation works for me.  At least five non-Mormon
man-caused disasterists agreed to a suicide attack, along with more than a
dozen others, who may or may not have known they were participating in their
very last non-Presbyterian overseas contingency operation.

spike








From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed May 19 22:27:14 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:27:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: >
	Better thinking about issues
Message-ID: <AANLkTinmrNKyztYfbCnr5im9SaDw7kYU8LD5p1HFVhx4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:39 AM,  samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:35:22 -0700
> From:
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism:
> ? ? ? ?Better thinking about issues
> Message-ID: <4BF3081A.3040608 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> AlgaeNymph wrote:
>> spike wrote:
>>> So perhaps part of the reason trutherism got so much mileage is due
>>> to the
>>> rumor that a fuel oil fire doesn't get hot enough to melt steel (and so
>>> explosives must have been present.) ?Technically true, but it doesn't
>>> need
>>> to *melt* the steel, only soften it like warm butter. ?A fuel-air
>>> fire sure
>>> as hell gets hot enough to soften steel, sufficient to cause burning
>>> buildings to collapse.
>> Actually, I remember this being one of the first things brought up.
>
> It does not burn hot enough to melt or significantly weaken skyscraper
> still. ?That is a fact. ?It has been proven even in fires that burned
> much longer for 24 hours. ?Steel does not become like warm butter at
> those temperatures.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?o=0&f=/c/a/2007/04/29/BAGVOPHQU46.DTL

This fire burned less than an hour.

Keith



From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 19 22:54:39 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:54:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text was Social aim for Transhumanism:
	Betterthinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <201005192125.o4JLPVxC023456@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
References: <201005192125.o4JLPVxC023456@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <BB567BA0EEC5431B844AEE0964B48C06@spike>

 


> Hi.
> 
> Is the attached html really of any use to those who read with speech?
> 
...
> Thanks much again as always.
> Jim

Hi Jim!  Good to hear from you, and thanks for the reminder to keep in mind
our sight impaired friends.

spike




From sparge at gmail.com  Wed May 19 22:57:00 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:57:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <8E8599A2C1C9459CA00DAD163BDDEDDC@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 
	<4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF423E0.2050901@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTik7MLm1yGYSn64RheqqBzXSPfy6BrvkK-41rHel@mail.gmail.com> 
	<8E8599A2C1C9459CA00DAD163BDDEDDC@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimYzJXdhFaYqDmrhU8qkxpmHVX9oRviyC0V7p5R@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 5:07 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> After all the yakkity yak and bla bla, our own Dr. Smigrodzki comes up with
> a novel twist, which I feel should be added to the reasoning matrix nearly
> verbatim. ?We had already that quad 4 (and 2) demotivates those who would
> prevent suspension for profit motives, but Rafal's notion is that quad 4
> (and possibly 3) would demotivate those who oppose suspension for
> non-monetary (possibly religious) reasons, who may try to intentionally
> delay suspension long enough to get Alcor to give up.

That was my point in one of the first articles in the thread:

  I think they're primarily making the point that you can't block them
  from doing their thing simply by delaying the process.

And then again later:

  You also ignore other possible benefits of this action, such as
  discouraging other families from blocking cryopreservation, that make
  it less than pointless.

I didn't say anything about it being profit-motivated, and I think
it's much more likely that people would try to block it because they
find it icky or incompatible with their religious beliefs.

-Dave



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed May 19 23:37:36 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:37:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>

Dave Sill wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:19 PM, John Grigg
> <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> I'm curious to know how many of you believe an actual biological
>> reanimation (and not simply a scan & simulation) will be possible at
>> some point (and if that is preferable to other options).  I'm just not
>> content with having a copy made.
>>     
>
> Firstly, I don't think scanning and simulating a brain is simple.
>
> By reanimation do you mean "simply" thawing and nano-repairing a brain
> and implanting it in a cloned body? Or would a nano-constructed
> replica from a scan qualify? The latter, of course, would "just" be a
> copy.
>   

I disagree with the notion of "just a copy".  But I don't want to reopen 
the never ending continuity of identity debate at this time. :)

> Personally, I don't care a whole lot about the platform on which my
> consciousness is running, as long as it *is* running.
>   
Me too.  I care more about the quality of the running instance, its 
completeness and performance, than I care about platform.  I would 
personally be delighted to be reanimated into a really good future 
upload space with options to create one or more bodies of my choice 
(human, android, defies description, whatever) to run around in physical 
space when I so desired.    But that's me.  :)

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed May 19 23:39:36 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:39:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for
 Transhumanism:	Betterthinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <674EB1A162424799AB91BD663876AAC1@DFC68LF1>
References: <20100519043036.65630.qmail@moulton.com>
	<674EB1A162424799AB91BD663876AAC1@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <4BF476B8.7050006@mac.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> Thanks Fred for practicing "better thinking about issues". 
>
>   

Or at least slowing down a possible tirade from all sides and opinions. 
:)  But bringing up the woo-woo term was not called for imho at this point.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu May 20 00:25:06 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:25:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF48162.8000104@mac.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> 2010/5/18 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
>
>   
>> Quadrant four. Exactly what Alcor did. For several reasons.
>> First and foremost, it was what the customer wanted and paid me for.
>>
>> False.  They paid you for a chance at future life.  Not to freeze whatever
>> remnant of fresh even if it is utterly hopeless to be any more than a
>> symbolic act.
>>     
>
> ### This is incorrect, Samantha. The contract usually signed with
> Alcor (such as mine) doesn't say many specifics about future life but
> very specifically describes what is to be done if my brain is
> considered to be non-recoverably destroyed. I paid for what the
> contract says - hopes of future life are not directly a part of the
> contract. If Mr Richardson's contract says he wanted his remains to be
> frozen regardless of their condition, then that it what he paid for,
> and that is what Alcor should strive to achieve.
>   

I was not saying that that was explicitly written in the contract but 
that this is the clear intent.   If the contract did say pretty much 
"freeze whatever whenever" then I would agree  with digging and freezing 
even though it is utterly pointless to do so as far as the intent 
goes.    The true intent should guide and be more explicit in the contract.

- samantha

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From moulton at moulton.com  Thu May 20 00:27:04 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (moulton at moulton.com)
Date: 20 May 2010 00:27:04 -0000
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism:
	Betterthinking about issues
Message-ID: <20100520002704.30980.qmail@moulton.com>


On Wed, 2010-05-19 at 16:39 -0700, samantha wrote:
Or at least slowing down a possible tirade from all sides and opinions. 
> :)  But bringing up the woo-woo term was not called for imho at this point.
 

In my message I did not say that the term woo woo applied to any of the positions which had been stated.  When I first composed that message I did have a term which would have referenced one "side" of the discussion and I took it out and put it woo woo as a non-specific term since in the past I have seen both sides make wild accusations about what happened as well as other participants.  Having both sides of a discussion calling each other crazy and deluded does not get us very far.  Fortunately on this list we have avoided some of the worst aspects of this.

I do have a personal opinion on all of the topic of World Trade Center but I am not going to state it at this time since I think that would derail the point that I am trying to make.  And I think my second and third items on the list apply to the majority of things which come up on this list.

On the general topic of cognition I recently started looking at a the following short summary of Cognitive Biases and while I have not reviewed it in depth the first couple of pages look fairly good:
http://www.scribd.com/documents/30548590/Cognitive-Biases-A-Visual-Study-Guide-by-the-Royal-Society-of-Account-Planning
or
http://bit.ly/cnsEYZ

Fred


From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu May 20 00:35:29 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:35:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
 thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimmC6W2O6YLDPacCCh5HXnydvvQHw2Q2qHtOeTG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
	<4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com> <4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimmC6W2O6YLDPacCCh5HXnydvvQHw2Q2qHtOeTG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF483D1.4010906@mac.com>

Jeff Davis wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:35 PM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>   
>> It does not burn hot enough to melt
>>     
>
> Yes.
>
>   
>> or significantly weaken skyscraper  still.
>>     
>
> Wrong.  It does, it did, the columns deformed, the buildings came down.
>   
That is theory, not proven fact.
>   
>>  That is a fact.
>>     
>
> No, that is your overconfident misinformed notion .  The collapse of
> the towers and building seven, that is fact.
>
>   
Nope.  See melting point of steel.

>>  It has been proven
>>     
>
> Unsourced misinformed overconfidence.
>
>   
>> even in fires that burned much
>> longer for 24 hours.
>>     
>
> Building seven came down before the end of the day.  Historical empirical fact.
>
>   
It was not even hit by any plane so that is even more odd.

> My g*d, your not a "truther" are you Samantha?!!!
>
>   
I will not even discuss what my views are on the topic in a forum that 
is throwing such terms on pre-sliming of possible positions around.  The 
issue on all sides has been very well covered on the net.  It is not at 
all clear that the official story is believable at the end of a honest 
examination.   


>>  Steel does not become like warm butter at those temperatures.
>>     
>
> No, it becomes like hot steel: softer, weaker.
>   

Nope.  Not enough soon enough.  I note know proof for your contention 
either.

> You need to read the article, Samantha.
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html?full=true
>
>   
I do not read articles attempting to smear people more than examine 
particular evidence for and against.  From examining arguments about 
what likely happened my conclusion is that the buildings did not come 
down in my opinion as the result of the fires or the impact. 

> You're over -the-top unwarranted certitude is a prime symptom of the
> phenomenon the article addresses.
>
>   
I did not come to that opinion lightly.  I didn't not want to reach that 
conclusion and was not at all happy when I did.  

I would expect people that pride themselves on rationality would not be 
so easily impressed with some puff piece on a popular science site 
lumping various opinions many readers may not hold together and tarring 
them all with the same brush no matter what their individual merits.     

- samantha

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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu May 20 00:51:55 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:51:55 -0600
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <4BF483D1.4010906@mac.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike> <4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com>
	<4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimmC6W2O6YLDPacCCh5HXnydvvQHw2Q2qHtOeTG@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF483D1.4010906@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilJH05nHbE8-8FDge-xH6ZBTFB1V-QBY2__8b2k@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/19 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>


> Jeff Davis wrote:
>
> My g*d, your not a "truther" are you Samantha?!!!
>
>
>
>  I will not even discuss what my views are ...
>

>
I'll take that as a "yes".

End of discussion.

Jeff Davis
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 20 01:16:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:16:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimYzJXdhFaYqDmrhU8qkxpmHVX9oRviyC0V7p5R@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike><462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com><AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF423E0.2050901@satx.rr.com><AANLkTik7MLm1yGYSn64RheqqBzXSPfy6BrvkK-41rHel@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E8599A2C1C9459CA00DAD163BDDEDDC@spike>
	<AANLkTimYzJXdhFaYqDmrhU8qkxpmHVX9oRviyC0V7p5R@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A519FF5AA4B94E1599BACAB5FC42E60D@spike>


> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill

> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
> 
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 5:07 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > After all the yakkity yak and bla bla, our own Dr. 
> Smigrodzki comes up with a novel twist...
> 
> That was my point in one of the first articles in the thread:
> 
>   I think they're primarily making the point that you can't block them
>   from doing their thing simply by delaying the process...

Ja Dave in retrospect, this is exactly what you were saying.  Good, we have
a solid basis for our reasoning matrix.

> -Dave




From max at maxmore.com  Thu May 20 01:41:53 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:41:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for
 Transhumanism:Betterthinking about issues
Message-ID: <201005200142.o4K1ghCI001635@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Fred: That page is no longer available. Apparently temporarily (?) 
taken down due to concern about the accuracy of some of the entries.

Max


>On the general topic of cognition I recently started looking at a 
>the following short summary of Cognitive Biases and while I have not 
>reviewed it in depth the first couple of pages look fairly good: 
>http://www.scribd.com/documents/30548590/Cognitive-Biases-A-Visual-Study-Guide-by-the-Royal-Society-of-Account-Planning
>or
>http://bit.ly/cnsEYZ
>
>Fred




From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 20 02:27:33 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 19:27:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF48162.8000104@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com><945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike><4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com><4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com><66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike><462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com><AANLkTikkE-4zjeC_T5cskldB0Y1bh0wsdnC2bytyDHiz@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF48162.8000104@mac.com>
Message-ID: <37A5110E99D241498B14DB13531145F9@spike>

 

...On Behalf Of samantha
	Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
	
	
	Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: 

		...If Mr Richardson's contract says he wanted his remains to
be
		frozen regardless of their condition, then that it what he
paid for,
		and that is what Alcor should strive to achieve.
		  


	>...I was not saying that that was explicitly written in the
contract but that this is the clear intent.   If the contract did say pretty
much "freeze whatever whenever" then I would agree  with digging and
freezing even though it is utterly pointless to do so as far as the intent
goes.    The true intent should guide and be more explicit in the contract.
- samantha


Ja, this comment actually sounds pretty close to the general consensus.
Everyone here is squicked by Alcor having to dig up a guy who has been in
the ground for a year.  

I interpreted liberally the comments and inferred a second choice.
Samantha, from your comments, I would think it legitimate to put "Samantha's
2nd" in quadrant 4.  There were others who chose quad 4 on the basis of
contractual requirements, even if pointless and revolting for the Alcor
people.  My wife chose quad 4 for that reason alone.

There is a clear signal here that pleases me.  Since no one really opted for
quads 1 and 3, that tells me that everyone here understands that Alcor
really did all it could do, and they deserve their pay.  We extropians are
holding them universally blameless as far as trying everything to carry out
what they agreed to do.  This is extremely important, critically important
for a company doing this kind of work.

spike

 
	
	




From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu May 20 03:10:54 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 21:10:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
	thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilJH05nHbE8-8FDge-xH6ZBTFB1V-QBY2__8b2k@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike> <4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com>
	<4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimmC6W2O6YLDPacCCh5HXnydvvQHw2Q2qHtOeTG@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF483D1.4010906@mac.com>
	<AANLkTilJH05nHbE8-8FDge-xH6ZBTFB1V-QBY2__8b2k@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTims5ZxnN9-KRqDVUYl4irTISx9ULlm5WaczXTZk@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, samantha, that was rude

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2010/5/19 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
>
>
>> Jeff Davis wrote:
>>
>> My g*d, your not a "truther" are you Samantha?!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>  I will not even discuss what my views are ...
>>
>
>>
> I'll take that as a "yes".
>
> End of discussion.
>
> Jeff Davis
>
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From moulton at moulton.com  Thu May 20 04:55:56 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (moulton at moulton.com)
Date: 20 May 2010 04:55:56 -0000
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for
	Transhumanism:Betterthinking about issues
Message-ID: <20100520045556.69134.qmail@moulton.com>


Well Max is correct that the page no longer displays.  It will be interesting to see if a replacement appears.  In the interim there is always the music approach which is not perfect but at least humorous:

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/05/05/cognitive-bias-song.html





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 20 15:59:27 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 10:59:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] missing matter found, maybe
Message-ID: <4BF55C5F.7030509@satx.rr.com>

[This is a fairly coarse-grained journalistic report, but maybe 
interesting anyway...]

<http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/3451/large-chunk-missing-universe-found>

Large chunk of missing universe found
Wednesday, 19 May 2010

by Meghan Miner
Cosmos Online

Scientists using two X-ray telescopes have found evidence for the 
'missing matter' in the nearby universe. This matter is made up of hot 
diffuse gas, which is known as WHIM (warm-hot intergalactic medium). To 
get this result, researchers analyzed X-ray light from a distant quasar 
that passed through a 'wall' of galaxies about 400 million light-years away.


SYDNEY: A large chunk of missing matter - theorised but never before 
measured - has been discovered as a vast smear of extremely hot 
intergalactic gas 400 million light-years away.

In order for the predominant theories about the formation and evolution 
of the universe to hold true, a certain amount of matter should be 
present; but large amounts of it have long remained elusive.

Now an international team of astronomers have found most of the missing 
matter, pinpointing its location using two different X-ray telescopes.

Clues to how galaxies formed

"We didn't just find a 'lost & found' item in the cosmic baryon budget," 
said Taotao Fang of the University of California at Irvine and lead 
author of the paper in The Astrophysical Journal, "our findings provide 
important clues to the question of how galaxies formed and evolved.

"The missing matter we found are the leftovers from the early galaxy 
formation process," said Fang

The missing matter has long been hypothesised, and some of it has even 
been spotted before; but previous observations did not uncover the full 
extent of this massive gas cloud.

Higher temperatures

"What [previous studies] found is the missing matter at lower 
temperatures ... about 10-20% of the total missing matter," said Fang. 
"What we found are missing matter at higher temperatures and account for 
the majority 80 to 90% of the missing matter."

By using two X-ray telescopes, instead of one visible light telescope as 
in previous studies, the exact location of the missing matter could be 
calculated and the results were more robust.

The X-ray telescopes that captured the images identifying the location 
of the missing matter are housed on NASA's Chandra and the European 
Space Agency's XMM-Newton - which has a command centre in Perth, 
Australia. Both orbital observatories that have been in space since 1999.

High-energy waves

X-ray telescopes detect different aspects and temperatures of light than 
visible light telescopes. "Just like when we use our eyes or an X-ray 
machine to look at a person, we see different 'aspects' of this person," 
said Fang.

By using X-ray telescopes scientists are able to observe radiation 
produced by different physical processes, such as high-energy waves 
emitted from particles that have extremely high temperatures like 
explosive forces, large gravity forces and magnetic fields.

In this case, astronomers looked for high frequency waves around a 
supermassive black hole, which - because of the size and pull on the 
area around it - generates huge amounts of X-ray energy.

Sculptor Wall

In the same line-of-sight as this black hole is a structure called the 
Sculptor Wall, which stretches tens of millions of light-years across, 
and is home to thousands of galaxies and a large portion of the newly 
found matter.

The matter, which is different from dark matter, is in a form known as 
'Warm-Hot-Intergalactic-Medium' (WHIM), a diffuse gas 'reservoir' with 
an extremely low density- about six protons per cubic metre- a possible 
explanation as to why it evaded earlier detection.

In comparison, the interstellar medium between stars in our own galaxy 
has about a million hydrogen atoms per cubic metre.

Composed of baryons?

The missing matter is likely composed of baryons, particles such as 
protons and electrons that are found through out our Solar System and on 
Earth. The baryons are leftover from galaxy formation processes and were 
then enriched by materials ejected from galaxies later.

These findings confirm the current theory about the formation and 
evolution of the universe and will help in further modelling of these 
processes in greater detail.

A very cool result

"This is a very cool result," says Geraint Lewis an astronomer at the 
University of Sydney, "but when I say cool, I mean exceedingly hot, like 
the temperature of these gasses.

"It's nice to see someone make a prediction and to find that the stuff 
is actually there ... we need to have a census of all the matter in the 
universe," he added.

According to astronomers' estimates, more matter is still missing, and 
to find it, suggests Fang, we'll need to develop new technology - a 
telescope with higher photon sensitivity.


From ddraig at gmail.com  Thu May 20 16:06:17 2010
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 02:06:17 +1000
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism:
	Betterthinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <D63CFB0FA1CD4242A81A9751EFF45B4D@spike>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com> 
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike>
	<AANLkTimEQRlKrIDouEA-lDpglauhXnoqWHWbeSY3P0Bn@mail.gmail.com> 
	<D63CFB0FA1CD4242A81A9751EFF45B4D@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimZugkgs1GuFKr9SA8PYvm_5VmQvc81xmmVv6RA@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 May 2010 07:56, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>   In 2004, apparently some non-quakers
>   Then later, the non-quakers
> A group of suspected non-Seventh Day Adventists attacked the WTC with
> could at least imagine these non-Methodists deciding to try to get access
> to
> So the official explanation works for me.  At least five non-Mormon
> very last non-Presbyterian overseas contingency operation.
>


Hey Spike, this totally cracks me up :-)

There's just endless giggling coming from this end of the intertoobz
whenever I see you doing this ;p

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat
  ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
 http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu May 20 16:50:34 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 18:50:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting more respect from the courts
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2010 04:19, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm curious to know how many of you believe an actual biological
> reanimation (and not simply a scan & simulation) will be possible at
> some point (and if that is preferable to other options). ?I'm just not
> content with having a copy made.
>
> I'd better be careful or this could lead to one of those
> identity/qualia threads that seem to go on forever... ?; )

In fact,.doubts exist amongst those who have an "essentialist", as
opposed to as "functionalist", view of identity even in the event of a
biological reanimation.

After all, aren't zombies, philosophical or other, the archetypical
reanimated corpses?

More coerent and better-behaving zombies do not imply much upon their
internal states or whether they are "copies", in (approximately) the
same bodies, of the old individuals, or "originals"...

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 20 17:22:43 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:22:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting more respect from the courts
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>

On 5/20/2010 11:50 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> doubts exist amongst those who have an "essentialist", as
> opposed to as "functionalist", view of identity even in the event of a
> biological reanimation.
>
> After all, aren't zombies, philosophical or other, the archetypical
> reanimated corpses?

I'd have thought that in Western Civ, the archetypal reanimated corpses 
are Lazarus and Jesus. Given that they were Jews, and I gather Jews 
mostly don't believe in a pop-in "soul" ontologically distinct from the 
body, this could raise some interesting questions as well.

Not at all sure that "essentialist" is the right word to describe 
someone like me. "Continuist" or something, maybe, if there is such a 
philosophical category. No absolute discontinuities in process allowed. 
After all, many essentialists might be quite happy to say that a perfect 
copy is by definition essentially the same (is of the same essence) as 
the original--two circles, say.

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 20 17:32:55 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:32:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike><AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>
	<15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>

On 5/18/2010 1:19 PM, spike wrote:

> I countersuggested having one's
> remains frozen inside a steel container submerged in liquid nitrogen, then
> the container is shaken violently until the remains are shattered into pea
> sized granules, then scatter the still frozen bits into the sea, or over a
> wide unimproved area by hauling a miniature manure spreader with a bicycle,
> whereupon the fragments will be devoured by ants upon thawing.

Freeze-dried burials to go global
2010-05-20 16:46

Hong Kong - Amid the potato starch coffins and biodegradable urns at a 
recent Asian funeral expo, a freeze-dry burial technique similar to 
cremation, but without the pyres, stood out as the ultimate green 
alternative.

The brainchild of a Swedish biologist, the "promession" technique, due 
to launch in Sweden and South Korea next year, takes some getting used 
to: liquid nitrogen is used to super-freeze a corpse, which is then 
shaken until it disintegrates into a pile of dust.

"The body really falls apart when it's really cold and that was 
something that I felt was appealing and clean," said Susanne 
Wiigh-Masak, who pioneered the sci-fiesque cryogenic method.

The crystallised body particles are then filtered of heavy metals like 
mercury and buried in a biodegradable container to nourish the growth of 
a plant or tree in a memorial park.

Whereas buried bodies can take many decades to decompose fully, the 
atomised particles from promession break down after six to 18 months, 
shrinking and completing a certain cycle of life.

After nearly a decade of trials and development and having to overcome 
major ethical and legal challenges to her controversial method, 
Wiigh-Masak said the first "promatorium" will finally open in Sweden 
next April and process up to 1 500 bodies a year.

This will be closely followed by South Korea, which is building at least 
thirteen sprawling memorial parks across the country to accommodate 
freeze-dry burials on a far larger scale.

The 'Resonator'

"This is going to be the future solution for Korea," said Wiigh-Masak 
who said her technique had the tacit support of the Korean government 
and at least 18 million members of the Korean Christian Church who say 
they're willing to be frozen at death.

"Traditional burials as they are today (in Korea) may not be allowed in 
future," she added, saying most graveyards in the country were now 
running out of space.

With a growing awareness of climate change and sustainable development 
fuelling development of cleaner, greener technologies, other techniques 
have also been invented.

A "Resomator", for instance, uses alkaline hydrolysis to reduce a corpse 
into a white powder and murky liquid intended to be flushed down the 
drain without polluting the environment.

With the world's population booming towards seven billion, such 
alternatives could prove to be a viable green and space saving solution 
to dealing with the 60 million or so people who die each year across the 
globe.

"It's really a good chance for the planet I think," said Wiigh-Masak.

While only a handful of other places are on the verge of passing 
legislation to allow promession such as Scotland, Wiigh-Masak said. 
Sixty countries had expressed an interest so far, including Hong Kong, 
China and Taiwan, given their dense urban centres and shrinking space 
for accommodating the dead.

"It would be great for Hong Kong," the biologist said.

- Reuters


From sparge at gmail.com  Thu May 20 18:01:38 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:01:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com> 
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike> <4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
	<AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com> <15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>
	<4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDepIBVrOa23Dwfw25yChb0NPIl31WgOLx56xt@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Freeze-dried burials to go global

This isn't freeze drying...more like freeze crushing. But, yeah,
that's exactly what Spike reinvented.

Seems like adding some kind of heat recovery to cremation would make
it a lot greener. Obese bodies should be a pretty good source of
energy. Google shows some activity in that area.

-Dave


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu May 20 18:43:46 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:43:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Zombie Jesus
In-Reply-To: <4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Stefano wrote in "Cryonics is getting more respect from the courts":

>After all, aren't zombies, philosophical or other, the archetypical
>reanimated corpses?

Damien replied:

>I'd have thought that in Western Civ, the archetypal reanimated 
>corpses are Lazarus and Jesus. Given that they were Jews, and I 
>gather Jews mostly don't believe in a pop-in "soul" ontologically 
>distinct from the body, this could raise some interesting questions as well.

Jesus was a zombie? I like it!

Given the annoying trend of _Sense and Sensibility and Sea
Monsters_ and _Pride and Prejudice and Zombies_, we might
as well have Jesus as undead.

Vampires are also trendy and undead. Since Jesus could turn
water to wine, and the communion wine transubstantiates into
the blood of Christ, would he need to bite necks? Wouldn't he
be attracted to crosses and holy water, rather than repelled?

Irreverent minds want to know.


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 20 19:21:01 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:21:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Zombie Jesus
In-Reply-To: <201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4BF58B9D.1090008@satx.rr.com>

On 5/20/2010 1:43 PM, David Lubkin wrote:
> Vampires are also trendy and undead. Since Jesus could turn
> water to wine, and the communion wine transubstantiates into
> the blood of Christ, would he need to bite necks? Wouldn't he
> be attracted to crosses and holy water, rather than repelled?

I thought everyone knew Jesus was a vampire.

He taught his followers to drink blood and eat flesh (touch of the 
zombie there, granted--maybe a hybrid).

He could fly.

He was finished off with a stake driven into his heart.

Of course he (like all vampires) is afraid of crosses; that's why the 
Romans used a cross to attempt to kill him.

He slept in a crypt after he was "killed" and then woke up and flew off.

Holy water--Probably something some heretic introduced; Jesus never 
taught its use. Oil, yes, and tears.

Damien Broderick




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu May 20 22:04:47 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:04:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Zombie Jesus
In-Reply-To: <4BF58B9D.1090008@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BF58B9D.1090008@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimprc6R2tr0I3c0JnATiXKP2LLwdWg3gO-GIjwk@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/20/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 5/20/2010 1:43 PM, David Lubkin wrote:
>> Vampires are also trendy and undead. Since Jesus could turn
>> water to wine, and the communion wine transubstantiates into
>> the blood of Christ, would he need to bite necks? Wouldn't he
>> be attracted to crosses and holy water, rather than repelled?
>
> I thought everyone knew Jesus was a vampire.
>
> He taught his followers to drink blood and eat flesh (touch of the
> zombie there, granted--maybe a hybrid).
>
> He could fly.
>
> He was finished off with a stake driven into his heart.
>
> Of course he (like all vampires) is afraid of crosses; that's why the
> Romans used a cross to attempt to kill him.
>
> He slept in a crypt after he was "killed" and then woke up and flew off.
>
> Holy water--Probably something some heretic introduced; Jesus never
> taught its use. Oil, yes, and tears.
>
> Damien Broderick
>


I googled "Jesus as a vampire" and was amazed by how much came up...

>From the "Uncyclopedia..."

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie_Jesus

A comic strip...

http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/231/2/2/Wait_by_kris_wilson.png

Pics from a zombieball...

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=369067301&albumId=903165

Attack of the "500 foot tall Jesus!"

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_of_the_500_foot_Jesus

"WereJesus!"

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Werejesus

Jesus appears to have his own energy drink now...

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jesus_Juice

"Cyborg Jesus..."

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cyborg_Jesus

Batman & Robin AND Jesus Christmas Special!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk1BLE4CaOk&feature=related

"Kung Fu Jesus..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B19bMWYtvRk&feature=related

A hit comic series that has Jesus fighting vampires (supposedly a
future Hollywood film)...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=6313#

"Jesus Christ, Vampire Hunter (a very low budget film...)!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LRIypcaIX4

Jesus beats up the Olympians in this very cool comic...

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/04/09/my-favorite-mid-90s-bad-ass-jesus-comic/

Comicbook Jesus website...

http://comicbookjesus.com/

Blasphemy...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y-VA9-txHjQ/S7UnNSVb-nI/AAAAAAAAAVk/GOExGc8PM4U/s1600/Zombie-Jesus.jpg

A blog/chart about American Jesus...

http://leviauslander.com/blog/

"The Power Tactics of Jesus Christ"  A small gem of psychological analysis...

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Tactics-Jesus-Christ-Essays/dp/0931513057

"Jesus, in the name of the gun!"

http://joelamoroney.com/2009/08/10/jesus-christ-in-the-name-of-the-gun/

Manga Jesus!

http://praxishabitus.blogspot.com/2009/01/japanese-jesus-manga-comic-book.html

Jesus rides on a dinosaur!

http://static.open.salon.com/files/jesus_dinosaur1234467260.jpg

Hitler tries to kill Jesus, but doesn't get away with it!

http://thecraptastics.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/god.jpg

Jesus versus Zombies comic book!

http://paneltopanel.net/shop/product_info.php?products_id=2159

A Mormon superhero...

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/041029comic.html

I hope I didn't manage to do this with my posting...

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID8947/images/pissed-jesus.jpg

And finally, a site that looks to Greek texts in an attempt at better
understanding the teachings of Jesus...

http://christswords.com/

John  : )


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu May 20 22:18:50 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:18:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
In-Reply-To: <4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim_tDcdyBOc1xFmd4tJFTte-SZLlxlG2i6j8o7W@mail.gmail.com>

Dave Sill wrote:
By reanimation do you mean "simply" thawing and nano-repairing a brain
and implanting it in a cloned body? Or would a nano-constructed
replica from a scan qualify? The latter, of course, would "just" be a
copy.
>>>

Yes, I mean repairing the frozen brain (and body, if also
cryopreserved).  A nano-constructed replica from a scan just does not
qualify. lol

I view a perfect (or at least near-perfect) copy of me by scanning and
simulation as the ultimate in twin brothers, but not actually me.
It's the whole "self-circuit/continuity" thing.

John


On 5/19/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Dave Sill wrote:
>> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:19 PM, John Grigg
>> <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm curious to know how many of you believe an actual biological
>>> reanimation (and not simply a scan & simulation) will be possible at
>>> some point (and if that is preferable to other options).  I'm just not
>>> content with having a copy made.
>>>
>>
>> Firstly, I don't think scanning and simulating a brain is simple.
>>
>> By reanimation do you mean "simply" thawing and nano-repairing a brain
>> and implanting it in a cloned body? Or would a nano-constructed
>> replica from a scan qualify? The latter, of course, would "just" be a
>> copy.
>>
>
> I disagree with the notion of "just a copy".  But I don't want to reopen
> the never ending continuity of identity debate at this time. :)
>
>> Personally, I don't care a whole lot about the platform on which my
>> consciousness is running, as long as it *is* running.
>>
> Me too.  I care more about the quality of the running instance, its
> completeness and performance, than I care about platform.  I would
> personally be delighted to be reanimated into a really good future
> upload space with options to create one or more bodies of my choice
> (human, android, defies description, whatever) to run around in physical
> space when I so desired.    But that's me.  :)
>
> - samantha
>
>


From zero.powers at gmail.com  Thu May 20 22:34:32 2010
From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:34:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>

It was a dream that began nearly 15 years ago, when Craig
Venter<http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/venter>,
a Vietnam veteran turned geneticist, resolved one day to create a genome
from scratch ? and with it, make the first ever synthetic life form. Last
night, in a dramatic announcement that led some to accuse him of playing
God, Venter said the dream had come true, saying he had created an organism
with manmade DNA.

The feat, hailed as an epochal scientific breakthrough by some but an
alarming development by others, was achieved by scientists at the J Craig
Venter Insititute in Rockville, Maryland using little more than a computer,
some common microbes, a DNA synthesizer and four bottles of chemicals.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/20/craig-venter-synthetic-life-genome
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu May 20 22:48:11 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:48:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimnGYqHsRxNeaqlwd-of6nt4QHnhVjl5EJlb-Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimnGYqHsRxNeaqlwd-of6nt4QHnhVjl5EJlb-Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikzDZsGUaNxQs7pFibu3L13XZHbafdr26cMpiIc@mail.gmail.com>

Stefano Vaj wrote:
I haven't read the article yet, but while Israel used to be, according
to an old poll, the country the most hostile to eugenics (the most
favourable was India, btw, and I suspect that the respective dominant
religions may have something to do with that), for other aspects
Israel has been for a long time on the forefront, keeping in mind its
size, of strategic techs, not to mention special schools for gifted
individuals, etc.
>>>

Yes, I could see how the term "eugenics" could be very ugly to Israel,
considering the Nazi legacy of torture and genocide.  And yet one of
the next smoking hot fields is going to be biotech, in it's various
manifestations.  I hope Israel does not miss the bus as Russia did in
the past with genetics.  Perhaps Singapore and South Korea will be
among the world leaders in the area of anti-aging research.

What I find ironic is that the Jews have in their own way been
practicing eugenics of a sort for the last several thousand years!
the Bene Gesserit would be proud! lol  They have been a people that
greatly encourage education and accomplishment, and now as a result
Jews tend to have higher I.Q's than average & they put them to good
use (a very synergistic combination of nature and nurture).

I realize the Ashkenazi make up just a small percentage of the world's
Jewish population, but they are still an excellent place to start
regarding this subject...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence

John


On 5/19/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19 May 2010 01:11, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> An excellent H+ article about how Israel is becoming a center of
>> transhumanist technologies and thinking. ?I admit to finding a great
>> deal of irony in this development.
>>
>> Next up, the state of Utah and the Mormon faith? hee
>>
>> http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/politics/israel%E2%80%99s-value-transhumanism
>
> I haven't read the article yet, but while Israel used to be, according
> to an old poll, the country the most hostile to eugenics (the most
> favourable was India, btw, and I suspect that the respective dominant
> religions may have something to do with that), for other aspects
> Israel has been for a long time on the forefront, keeping in mind its
> size, of strategic techs, not to mention special schools for gifted
> indivuals, etc.
>
> And, Mormons AFAIK are probably the christian confession with the most
> vibrant transhumanist community. There again, I believe that it may
> have to do with their more or less radical departure from a number of
> tenets of other monotheistic persuasions.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 20 22:54:06 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:54:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF5BD8E.6060704@satx.rr.com>

On 5/20/2010 5:34 PM, Zero Powers wrote:

> Last night, in a dramatic
> announcement that led some to accuse him of playing God,

Actually he *was* only playing god, because his team just copied an 
existing genome (other than a few tweaks and unintentional mutations). 
Weakly godlike at best (as Charlie Stross might put it).

Damien Broderick


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu May 20 23:41:54 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:41:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikzDZsGUaNxQs7pFibu3L13XZHbafdr26cMpiIc@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimnGYqHsRxNeaqlwd-of6nt4QHnhVjl5EJlb-Pg@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikzDZsGUaNxQs7pFibu3L13XZHbafdr26cMpiIc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201005202343.o4KNhnTM022325@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

John Grigg wrote:

>Yes, I could see how the term "eugenics" could be very ugly to Israel,
>considering the Nazi legacy of torture and genocide.  And yet one of
>the next smoking hot fields is going to be biotech, in it's various
>manifestations.

I don't know if Israel will get into the pathways we like to consider
but they're #1 or 2 in the world for biotech startups.

In the category of small world -- my high school English teacher (in
Israel) is married to a scientist who pioneered (and patented) the
use of bacteria to clean up oil in tankers, pipelines, and beaches.

He's done a lot of other interesting molecular microbiology,
particularly for pollution control (most recently, restoring coral).


-- David.




From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu May 20 23:47:30 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:47:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <4BF3605B.9060409@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>
	<AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>
	<F466D7F54C5D4EE7AB68112005061748@spike>
	<201005190326.o4J3Q9ic015721@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BF3605B.9060409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin7d5EVqoiF-j0bAISFgFDIEJzw-i7mO6-_1alF@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 9:51 PM, AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com> wrote:

> Personally, I want to know how to express support for
> Israel without coming across as a right-wing wacko
> or a spoiled rich white boy.

Simple.  Just have the courage to apply to Israel the same evenhanded
standard of right and wrong, of justice, of action leading to
consequences, that you would want to see enjoyed by everyone.

What would you do if say, a member of your family "went down the wrong
path"?  If you had the wisdom. strength, and resources, you might
intervene to halt the destructive -- to both self and others --
actions.  You might get the family member some high-quality help -- a
good Jewish lawyer and psychiatrist -- and work through the process
eventually leading to rehabilitation.

Israel is out of control, and seemingly incapable of helping itself.
Someone who cares about the Jews,  because of say, their unrivaled
contribution to human progress, needs to step in and help them finally
get beyond their historic tragic flaw: the five-thousand-year
commitment to suicide by goy.

My two cents.

Best, Jeff Davis

"...short of genocide, it is not possible to attain a final military
victory over a justified sense of grievance."
                               Michael Breen


From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 21 00:44:07 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:44:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for
	Transhumanism:Betterthinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZugkgs1GuFKr9SA8PYvm_5VmQvc81xmmVv6RA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1><AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike><AANLkTimEQRlKrIDouEA-lDpglauhXnoqWHWbeSY3P0Bn@mail.gmail.com>
	<D63CFB0FA1CD4242A81A9751EFF45B4D@spike>
	<AANLkTimZugkgs1GuFKr9SA8PYvm_5VmQvc81xmmVv6RA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C337629F5CB24CE7A001A651D72FE92F@spike>

 

	On 20 May 2010 07:56, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
	


		  ...In 2004, apparently some non-quakers...
		



	Hey Spike, this totally cracks me up :-)
	
	There's just endless giggling coming from this end of the
intertoobz... ;p
	
	Dwayne
	-- 
	

Dwayne, we don't want to offend any particular group's delicate
sensibilities or interfere with a religion.  Keith's bizarre case showed
something I never would have imagined, that it is an imprisonable offense to
interfere with a religion.

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 21 00:55:48 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:55:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike><AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com><15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>
	<4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3D9B6FF87DF04ED5898C554F08B6281B@spike>

 > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
> 
> On 5/18/2010 1:19 PM, spike wrote:
> 
> > ...
> > then the container is shaken violently until the remains 
> are shattered into pea sized granules...
> 
> Hong Kong - ...
> 
> The brainchild of a Swedish biologist...
> to: liquid nitrogen is used to super-freeze a corpse, which 
> is then shaken until it disintegrates into a pile of dust...
> 
...

Damn it's hard to come up with an original idea.

> The 'Resonator'
> 
> ... at least 18 million members of the 
> Korean Christian Church who say they're willing to be frozen at death...


You know it is only a matter of time before some new super charismatic
religious leader comes forth teaching that the only way to have a future
life is to get oneself frozen.  By this I mean not a scientist, but
specifically a religious leader, who will actually propose a god who is
really advanced (like Star Trek's Q) but not magic.  I actually think it
will only be at that time that cryonics will really take off.  It will have
it's scattering of offbeat adherents (like us) but until an actual
*religion* takes up cryonics, Alcor will be about the size it is now.

spike






From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Fri May 21 01:36:35 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:36:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike><AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com><15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>
	<4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <53EB4FF70DB14B60B440CC5BDFB958A9@3DBOXXW4850>

A life flushed down the drain. OMG (by the way that OMG - in my world, 
stands for Oh My Genetics)

Gina
www.nanogirl.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:32 AM
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake


> On 5/18/2010 1:19 PM, spike wrote:
>
> A "Resomator", for instance, uses alkaline hydrolysis to reduce a corpse 
> into a white powder and murky liquid intended to be flushed down the drain 
> without polluting the environment.



From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 21 01:13:04 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 18:13:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A335F2FF3E149B1AEB34ECF5618CDC5@spike>

ZERO POWERS!
 
How the heck have you been, man!  Several of us were looking all over for
you, but you disappeared cwithout a trace.  You have exactly nada internet
presence.  We couldn't find you for years.
 
Welcome baaaack!
 
{8-]
 
spike


  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Zero Powers
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:35 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!


It was a dream that began nearly 15 years ago, when Craig Venter
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/venter> , a Vietnam veteran turned
geneticist ...  

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Fri May 21 01:52:39 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 21:52:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim_tDcdyBOc1xFmd4tJFTte-SZLlxlG2i6j8o7W@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>
	<AANLkTim_tDcdyBOc1xFmd4tJFTte-SZLlxlG2i6j8o7W@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201005210154.o4L1sc82017145@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

John Grigg wrote:

>Yes, I mean repairing the frozen brain (and body, if also
>cryopreserved).  A nano-constructed replica from a scan just does not
>qualify. lol
>
>I view a perfect (or at least near-perfect) copy of me by scanning and
>simulation as the ultimate in twin brothers, but not actually me.
>It's the whole "self-circuit/continuity" thing.

It recalls the story of the axe. First the handle was replaced, then
the head, but it retains continuity as the axe.

Is there a point in the extent of repairs needed that you'd consider
John-2 to be a different person, in the sense that the perfect copy
is?

*I* don't want to be frozen and brought back. I want to be
continually, unambiguously alive from now until I don't want to be.
We all agree, right? Cryonics is a much worse alternative; it's just
better than information theoretic death.

For revival -- I tend to be a cautious and skeptical adopter of new
tech. My inclination is to come back in a meat body first and then
hear about the alternatives, rather than going straight to upload or
non-meat. I sure don't want to start in an upload and then find out
it's running on Windows 2055.


-- David.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri May 21 02:19:46 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 21:19:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
In-Reply-To: <201005210154.o4L1sc82017145@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>	<AANLkTim_tDcdyBOc1xFmd4tJFTte-SZLlxlG2i6j8o7W@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005210154.o4L1sc82017145@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4BF5EDC2.9020502@satx.rr.com>

On 5/20/2010 8:52 PM, David Lubkin wrote:
>>
>> I view a perfect (or at least near-perfect) copy of me by scanning and
>> simulation as the ultimate in twin brothers, but not actually me.
>> It's the whole "self-circuit/continuity" thing.
>
> It recalls the story of the axe. First the handle was replaced, then
> the head, but it retains continuity as the axe.
>
> Is there a point in the extent of repairs needed that you'd consider
> John-2 to be a different person, in the sense that the perfect copy
> is?

It doesn't really recall that story. It recalls a story in which a very 
worn axe head and splintery handle were replaced in one foul (rather 
than fell) swoop by a gleaming new axe head and handle using the 
original specs. Terrific for anyone wanting a sturdy new axe, not so 
much fun for the original axe. Luckily axes haven't got a clue.

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 21 03:05:03 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 20:05:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <53EB4FF70DB14B60B440CC5BDFB958A9@3DBOXXW4850>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike><AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com><15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike><4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
	<53EB4FF70DB14B60B440CC5BDFB958A9@3DBOXXW4850>
Message-ID: <8AAB96CC022E4756949D59E55EDC1E06@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of Gina Miller
> Subject: Re: [ExI] freeze and shake
> 
> A life flushed down the drain. ...(Oh My Genetics)... Gina

Doesn't hafta, Gina.  Consider if Alcor were to expand its services to
include super-green disposal of one's remains.  As far as the family needs
to know, Alcor is the beneficiary of an eyeball donation (along with a cash
donation of say $100k) for a study to see what happens to corneas frozen for
an indefinite time, necessitating that the corneas remain in their original
packaging for the purposes of the experiment, with all neural attachments
intact.  Then one donates one's eyes to Alcor, the company freezes and
shatters the rest (everything from the neck down) to gravel and gives the
crushed ice to the family of the deceased.  If they have for whatever reason
heartburn with the notion of cryonics, I don't see why they would object to
an organ donation experiment.  So they stay out of the way.  Everyone wins,
ja?

spike


 



From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri May 21 03:12:37 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 23:12:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
In-Reply-To: <4BF5EDC2.9020502@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>
	<AANLkTim_tDcdyBOc1xFmd4tJFTte-SZLlxlG2i6j8o7W@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005210154.o4L1sc82017145@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BF5EDC2.9020502@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikuS2L8BIIQfHVkRPgHqLPtwv-mUBMs4kfurBX2@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 5/20/2010 8:52 PM, David Lubkin wrote:
>
>>
>>> I view a perfect (or at least near-perfect) copy of me by scanning and
>>> simulation as the ultimate in twin brothers, but not actually me.
>>> It's the whole "self-circuit/continuity" thing.
>>>
>>
>> It recalls the story of the axe. First the handle was replaced, then
>> the head, but it retains continuity as the axe.
>>
>> Is there a point in the extent of repairs needed that you'd consider
>> John-2 to be a different person, in the sense that the perfect copy
>> is?
>>
>
> It doesn't really recall that story. It recalls a story in which a very
> worn axe head and splintery handle were replaced in one foul (rather than
> fell) swoop by a gleaming new axe head and handle using the original specs.
> Terrific for anyone wanting a sturdy new axe, not so much fun for the
> original axe. Luckily axes haven't got a clue.
>

Right, the old axe wasn't that sharp.
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From zero.powers at gmail.com  Fri May 21 05:33:06 2010
From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 22:33:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <9A335F2FF3E149B1AEB34ECF5618CDC5@spike>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A335F2FF3E149B1AEB34ECF5618CDC5@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimGL2ZYXX6rksXMH1BIBjBieaP6r_-IjK9mXxSB@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Spike, yeah it has been a while (about 4 years to be exact).  Although
my extropic interests haven't faded, my time has really diminished, which is
why I kind of gave up on my participation here.  But I have been lurking
silently.  I keep waiting for a major breakthrough in nanotech and/or
biotech or AI to get me really excited about the future, but it's taking an
awful long time, so I've been concentrating on my present instead :P

Glad to see you are still around.  Upward and onward!

Zero

2010/5/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>  ZERO POWERS!
>
> How the heck have you been, man!  Several of us were looking all over for
> you, but you disappeared cwithout a trace.  You have exactly nada internet
> presence.  We couldn't find you for years.
>
> Welcome baaaack!
>
> {8-]
>
> spike
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Zero Powers
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:35 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list
> *Subject:* [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
>
>  It was a dream that began nearly 15 years ago, when Craig Venter<http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/venter>,
> a Vietnam veteran turned geneticist ...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 21 08:58:41 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 09:58:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Saliency Bias?
Message-ID: <AANLkTilIde5m8ksvxzDrqen2p0ntsWqpag8lXgHkL4tk@mail.gmail.com>

Todays Dilbert cartoon refers to 'saliency bias'.

This struck me as an unusual term. So I googled, as you do......

It isn't listed in the vast Wikipedia list of cognitive biases.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases>

So.... that probably means that it could be a different name for another bias.

After a bit more reading, it seems to be similar to Attentional bias.

"Salience biases refer to the fact that colorful, dynamic or other
distictive stimuli disproportionately engage attention, and
accordingly disproportionately affect judgements".

"salience bias", the fascinating tendency humans have to worry about
dramatic things (explosions, disasters, big fierce animals, etc.),
rather than to objectively evaluate the odds.
------------------

OK. That agrees with the idea that the world will end not with a bang,
but with a whimper.


As Scott Aaronson comments:
    I think it's easy to fall victim to "premature Bayesianism": that
is, trying to be rigorous by demanding probabilities for specific
astronomically unlikely events, while implicitly assigning many other
related events a probability of 0 because you haven't even considered
them. Economists might consider this an instance of salience bias.
>From my perspective, though, something like it is probably inevitable
when computationally-bounded agents like ourselves try to simulate
Bayesian rationality. We're never going to succeed, since the space of
potentially-relevant events is exponentially large, and summing over
them would be #P-complete even if we knew the right prior.

    As a side note, it's always struck me how people get more worked
up about civilization being destroyed by grey goo or malevolent
AI-bots or particle physics disasters, than they do about its
destruction by completely non-hypothetical methods: say chopping down
all the forests, filling the oceans with garbage and the atmosphere
with billions of years' worth of accumulated carbon. Maybe the fact
that the real dangers are (relatively) slow creates a false sense of
security, or maybe the fact that they're real makes them less fun to
worry about.
--------------------

Now that makes saliency bias really important.


BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri May 21 09:08:12 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:08:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimwanYTYNLgWlDznF_SGr6rjts-5Zz11DXn-cvM@mail.gmail.com>

As usual, the press covers this development with some hype. But beyond the
press' hype, this is a spectacular achievement. Especially from a memetic
point of view: we know that life can be engineered as a matter of fact, and
goodbye vitalist mysticism.

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On May 21, 2010 12:35 AM, "Zero Powers" <zero.powers at gmail.com> wrote:

It was a dream that began nearly 15 years ago, when Craig
Venter<http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/venter>,
a Vietnam veteran turned geneticist, resolved one day to create a genome
from scratch ? and with it, make the first ever synthetic life form. Last
night, in a dramatic announcement that led some to accuse him of playing
God, Venter said the dream had come true, saying he had created an organism
with manmade DNA.

The feat, hailed as an epochal scientific breakthrough by some but an
alarming development by others, was achieved by scientists at the J Craig
Venter Insititute in Rockville, Maryland using little more than a computer,
some common microbes, a DNA synthesizer and four bottles of chemicals.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/20/craig-venter-synthetic-life-genome

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri May 21 09:51:36 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 02:51:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <3D9B6FF87DF04ED5898C554F08B6281B@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
	<AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>
	<15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>
	<4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
	<3D9B6FF87DF04ED5898C554F08B6281B@spike>
Message-ID: <4BF657A8.6070809@mac.com>

spike wrote:
>  > ...On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
>   
>> Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
>>
>> On 5/18/2010 1:19 PM, spike wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> ...
>>> then the container is shaken violently until the remains 
>>>       
>> are shattered into pea sized granules...
>>
>> Hong Kong - ...
>>
>> The brainchild of a Swedish biologist...
>> to: liquid nitrogen is used to super-freeze a corpse, which 
>> is then shaken until it disintegrates into a pile of dust...
>>
>>     
> ...
>
> Damn it's hard to come up with an original idea.
>
>   
>> The 'Resonator'
>>
>> ... at least 18 million members of the 
>> Korean Christian Church who say they're willing to be frozen at death...
>>     
>
>
> You know it is only a matter of time before some new super charismatic
> religious leader comes forth teaching that the only way to have a future
> life is to get oneself frozen.  By this I mean not a scientist, but
> specifically a religious leader, who will actually propose a god who is
> really advanced (like Star Trek's Q) but not magic.  I actually think it
> will only be at that time that cryonics will really take off.  It will have
> it's scattering of offbeat adherents (like us) but until an actual
> *religion* takes up cryonics, Alcor will be about the size it is now.
>
>   

Don't tempt me.  :)    Pro Artilect (realization of "God" don't you 
know) and cryogenic suspension one of the sacred rites and thus a 
religious right of all members. 

- s


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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri May 21 13:43:28 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 06:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1274443204.10722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <243930.58991.qm@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
 
> As usual, the press covers this development with some hype.
> But beyond the
> press' hype, this is a spectacular achievement. Especially
> from a memetic
> point of view: we know that life can be engineered as a
> matter of fact, and
> goodbye vitalist mysticism.

<Devil's Advocate>
I doubt it.

Not meaning to trivilaise what they've done, but it was 'only' the copying of some existing DNA and then inserting it into a cell without it's own DNA.  You could interpret this as meaning that DNA isn't as important as we thought, and the 'Elan Vital' lies in protoplasm.  Synthesise /that/, Venter!
</Devil's Advocate>

Ben Zaiboc


      




From algaenymph at gmail.com  Fri May 21 10:40:03 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 03:40:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Saliency Bias?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilIde5m8ksvxzDrqen2p0ntsWqpag8lXgHkL4tk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilIde5m8ksvxzDrqen2p0ntsWqpag8lXgHkL4tk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF66303.3000306@gmail.com>

BillK wrote:
>     As a side note, it's always struck me how people get more worked
> up about civilization being destroyed by grey goo or malevolent
> AI-bots or particle physics disasters, than they do about its
> destruction by completely non-hypothetical methods: say chopping down
> all the forests, filling the oceans with garbage and the atmosphere
> with billions of years' worth of accumulated carbon. Maybe the fact
> that the real dangers are (relatively) slow creates a false sense of
> security, or maybe the fact that they're real makes them less fun to
> worry about.
>   
So what examples do us transhumanists fall prey to?


From reasonerkevin at yahoo.com  Fri May 21 15:01:35 2010
From: reasonerkevin at yahoo.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 08:01:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Death as a disease
In-Reply-To: <243930.58991.qm@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <243930.58991.qm@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <11169.41765.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Nothing new here for us, but glad to see this in the popular media. Of course I wish he would have put more thought into the very last comment.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20100323/ts_dailybeast/7269_scarynewgoppoll


By Kate Kelland Kate Kelland  ? Thu May 20, 
5:30 am ET
LONDON (Reuters) ? 
Is aging a disease?
It's clear that the simple fact of growing older -- chronological aging 
-- is relentless and unstoppable. But experts studying the science of 
aging say it's time for a fresh look at the biological process -- one 
which recognizes it as a condition that can be manipulated, treated and 
delayed.
Taking this new approach would turn the search for drugs to fight age-related diseases on its head, they say, and could speed 
the path to market of drugs that treat multiple illnesses like diabetes, heart disease and 
Alzheimer's at the same time.
"If aging is seen as a disease, it changes how we respond to it. For 
example, it becomes the duty of doctors to treat it," said David Gems, a biogerontologist who spoke at a conference on aging in London last week called "Turning Back the Clock."
At the moment, drug companies and scientists keen to develop their 
research on aging into tangible results are hampered by regulators in 
the United States and Europe who will license medicines only for specific diseases, not for 
something as general as aging.
"Because aging is not viewed as a disease, the whole process of bringing drugs to market can't be applied to drugs that treat aging. This 
creates a disincentive to pharmaceutical companies to develop drugs to 
treat it," said Gems.
The ability of humans to live longer and longer lives is being 
demonstrated in abundance across the world.
Average life expectancies extended by as much as 30 years in developed 
countries during the 20th century and experts expect the same or more to happen again in this century.
A study published last year by Danish researchers estimated that more 
than half of all babies born in wealthy nations since the year 2000 will live to see their 100th birthdays.
"THERE'S ONE THING WE'RE ALL MISSING"
But with greater age comes a heavier burden of age-related disease.
Cases of dementia and Alzheimer's, incurable brain-wasting conditions, are expected to almost double every 20 years to around 66 million in 2030 and over 115 million in 2050.
Diabetes, heart disease and cancer, and the cost of coping with them in aging populations, are 
also set to rise dramatically in coming decades in rich and poor 
countries alike.
Nir Barzilai of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Yeshiva University in New York, says one way of trying to face down this enormous burden of disease is to look at the biggest risk factor common to all of them -- aging.
"There's one thing everybody is missing," he said. "Aging is common for 
all of these diseases -- and yet we're not investigating the common 
mechanism for all of them. We are just looking at the specific 
diseases."
To try to reverse that, Barzilai and many other scientists around the 
world are studying the genes of the very old and starting to find the genetic mechanisms, or pathways, that help 
them beat off the dementias, cancers, heart diseases and other age-related 
illnesses that bring down others who die younger.
By finding the genes thought to help determine longevity, scientists 
think they may be able to mimic their action to not only extend life span, but, 
crucially, extend health span.
"It is ... looking increasingly likely that pharmacological manipulation of these ... pathways could form the basis of new preventative medicines for diseases aging, and aging itself," said Andrew Dillin of the Salk Institute in 
California and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. 
Gems says institutional and ideological barriers are standing in the way -- and a major one is the longstanding traditional view that aging is 
not a disease, but a natural, benign process that should not be 
interfered with. 
CHANGING ATTITUDES? 
All three experts say, however, that the ground is shifting in their 
direction. 
There is now a "groundswell" of specialists in aging, says Dillin, who 
are lobbying the world's biggest drug regulator, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, to consider redefining aging as a disease in its own right. 
Major scientific research bodies like the U.S. National Institutes of Health and the Medical Research Council in Britain are 
also under pressure to put more emphasis -- and funding -- into studying how aging increases disease risk. 
For biogerontologists, as scientists who study the biology of aging are 
known, the struggle is to convince people that their goal in unpicking 
the science behind aging is no longer life, but healthier life. 
"The whole reason that we study the aging process is not actually to 
make people live a lot longer, it's to get people to have a more healthy lifespan," said Dillin. 
He sees it as a matter of re-educating the public and health authorities to see biological aging in a new light. 
"When we are in the public arena we tell people we're working on the 
aging process, the first thing they think is that we want to make a 
100-year-old person live to be 250 -- and that's actually the furthest 
from the truth," he said. 
"What I want is for a 60-year-old person who is predisposed to have Alzheimer's to be able 
to delay that, live to be 80, and get to know their grandchildren."
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From painlord2k at libero.it  Fri May 21 16:20:30 2010
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 18:20:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <243930.58991.qm@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <243930.58991.qm@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BF6B2CE.6070606@libero.it>

Il 21/05/2010 15.43, Ben Zaiboc ha scritto:


> Giulio Prisco<giulio at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>    
>> As usual, the press covers this development with some hype.
>> But beyond the
>> press' hype, this is a spectacular achievement. Especially
>> from a memetic
>> point of view: we know that life can be engineered as a
>> matter of fact, and
>> goodbye vitalist mysticism.
>>      
> <Devil's Advocate>
> I doubt it.
>
> Not meaning to trivilaise what they've done, but it was 'only' the copying of some existing DNA and then inserting it into a cell without it's own DNA.  You could interpret this as meaning that DNA isn't as important as we thought, and the 'Elan Vital' lies in protoplasm.  Synthesise /that/, Venter!
> </Devil's Advocate>
>    
The real act of creation would be to start with the specs of what the 
organism must do and how and write down the needed DNA.
This would be life engineering.

Mirco
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Nessun virus nel messaggio in uscita.
Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com 
Versione: 9.0.819 / Database dei virus: 271.1.1/2886 -  Data di rilascio: 05/20/10 20:26:00

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri May 21 17:20:22 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:20:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <4BF5BD8E.6060704@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF5BD8E.6060704@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <08B14CF0-884A-4203-AA56-3787E46DD574@bellsouth.net>

It's significant because for the first time humans have complete control over every single nucleotide of an organism's DNA. I don't count viruses as organisms.

And welcome back Zero Powers!

   John K Clark
===============


On May 20, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> On 5/20/2010 5:34 PM, Zero Powers wrote:
> 
>> Last night, in a dramatic
>> announcement that led some to accuse him of playing God,
> 
> Actually he *was* only playing god, because his team just copied an existing genome (other than a few tweaks and unintentional mutations). Weakly godlike at best (as Charlie Stross might put it).

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From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Fri May 21 18:48:24 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:48:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <8AAB96CC022E4756949D59E55EDC1E06@spike>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike><AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com><15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike><4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com><53EB4FF70DB14B60B440CC5BDFB958A9@3DBOXXW4850>
	<8AAB96CC022E4756949D59E55EDC1E06@spike>
Message-ID: <817F580912B84D279B7BD7C1950189B6@3DBOXXW4850>

I wasn't making a direct reaction to the article, I was just making a joke 
in reference to their comment "A "Resomator", for instance, uses alkaline 
hydrolysis to reduce a corpse into a white powder and murky liquid intended 
to be flushed down the drain without polluting the environment." You know, 
like a life down flushed down the drain....(or other) I guess these things 
don't always translate via email.
Gina
www.nanogirl.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "spike" <spike66 at att.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] freeze and shake


>
>
>> ...On Behalf Of Gina Miller
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] freeze and shake
>>
>> A life flushed down the drain. ...(Oh My Genetics)... Gina
>
> Doesn't hafta, Gina.  Consider if Alcor were to expand its services to
> include super-green disposal of one's remains.  As far as the family needs
> to know, Alcor is the beneficiary of an eyeball donation (along with a 
> cash
> donation of say $100k) for a study to see what happens to corneas frozen 
> for
> an indefinite time, necessitating that the corneas remain in their 
> original
> packaging for the purposes of the experiment, with all neural attachments
> intact.  Then one donates one's eyes to Alcor, the company freezes and
> shatters the rest (everything from the neck down) to gravel and gives the
> crushed ice to the family of the deceased.  If they have for whatever 
> reason
> heartburn with the notion of cryonics, I don't see why they would object 
> to
> an organ donation experiment.  So they stay out of the way.  Everyone 
> wins,
> ja?
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri May 21 19:14:42 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:14:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] freeze and shake
In-Reply-To: <817F580912B84D279B7BD7C1950189B6@3DBOXXW4850>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
	<AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>
	<15613A7338A846A28A0BD4A6B4AD5324@spike>
	<4BF57247.8010004@satx.rr.com>
	<53EB4FF70DB14B60B440CC5BDFB958A9@3DBOXXW4850>
	<8AAB96CC022E4756949D59E55EDC1E06@spike>
	<817F580912B84D279B7BD7C1950189B6@3DBOXXW4850>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinU9N71OLQnFqU2JNzBulC8QtrEb2Qua5IDbhI7@mail.gmail.com>

My initial knee jerk reaction to this technique was that this is a
perverse "Bizarro world" take on cryonics! lol  But I can see now how
this might actually be a very good thing for Alcor and CI, in that
since the person is getting frozen anyway...

The general public would get used to the idea of the dead being
frozen, but I could see cryonicists getting into an adversarial
position with the green/environmental/sustainability movement because
we would be viewed by them as wasting valuable resources (in a world
with a great deal of poverty) to preserve frozen bodies for the
longterm.

John


On 5/21/10, Gina Miller <nanogirl at halcyon.com> wrote:
> I wasn't making a direct reaction to the article, I was just making a joke
> in reference to their comment "A "Resomator", for instance, uses alkaline
> hydrolysis to reduce a corpse into a white powder and murky liquid intended
> to be flushed down the drain without polluting the environment." You know,
> like a life down flushed down the drain....(or other) I guess these things
> don't always translate via email.
> Gina
> www.nanogirl.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "spike" <spike66 at att.net>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 9:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] freeze and shake
>
>
>>
>>
>>> ...On Behalf Of Gina Miller
>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] freeze and shake
>>>
>>> A life flushed down the drain. ...(Oh My Genetics)... Gina
>>
>> Doesn't hafta, Gina.  Consider if Alcor were to expand its services to
>> include super-green disposal of one's remains.  As far as the family needs
>> to know, Alcor is the beneficiary of an eyeball donation (along with a
>> cash
>> donation of say $100k) for a study to see what happens to corneas frozen
>> for
>> an indefinite time, necessitating that the corneas remain in their
>> original
>> packaging for the purposes of the experiment, with all neural attachments
>> intact.  Then one donates one's eyes to Alcor, the company freezes and
>> shatters the rest (everything from the neck down) to gravel and gives the
>> crushed ice to the family of the deceased.  If they have for whatever
>> reason
>> heartburn with the notion of cryonics, I don't see why they would object
>> to
>> an organ donation experiment.  So they stay out of the way.  Everyone
>> wins,
>> ja?
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri May 21 19:18:15 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:18:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <08B14CF0-884A-4203-AA56-3787E46DD574@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF5BD8E.6060704@satx.rr.com>
	<08B14CF0-884A-4203-AA56-3787E46DD574@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinPiw8P1GtHC1a2beTF6XyBZ34H4VNhrRhB9aeQ@mail.gmail.com>

John K Clark wrote:
And welcome back Zero Powers!
>>

And I will repeat the salutation!  But I was hoping you would return
to us only after you had actually developed yourself to the point
where you could change your moniker to "Infinite Powers!"

John  : )

On 5/21/10, John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> It's significant because for the first time humans have complete control
> over every single nucleotide of an organism's DNA. I don't count viruses as
> organisms.
>
> And welcome back Zero Powers!
>
>    John K Clark
> ===============
>
>
> On May 20, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
>
>> On 5/20/2010 5:34 PM, Zero Powers wrote:
>>
>>> Last night, in a dramatic
>>> announcement that led some to accuse him of playing God,
>>
>> Actually he *was* only playing god, because his team just copied an
>> existing genome (other than a few tweaks and unintentional mutations).
>> Weakly godlike at best (as Charlie Stross might put it).
>
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri May 21 19:40:16 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:40:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Those crazy-eyed optimists!
Message-ID: <AANLkTikb65gU-7w9YGJIyKe4ee3s0KO2PZ3eEro8V55x@mail.gmail.com>

Those darn optimists...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/science/18tier.html

John


From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 21 19:42:46 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:42:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinPiw8P1GtHC1a2beTF6XyBZ34H4VNhrRhB9aeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com><4BF5BD8E.6060704@satx.rr.com><08B14CF0-884A-4203-AA56-3787E46DD574@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinPiw8P1GtHC1a2beTF6XyBZ34H4VNhrRhB9aeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7CB51FE0333F4634AC333F4189EAC1EA@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of John Grigg
...
> 
> John K Clark wrote:
> And welcome back Zero Powers!
> >>
> 
> And I will repeat the salutation!  But I was hoping you would 
> return to us only after you had actually developed yourself 
> to the point where you could change your moniker to "Infinite Powers!"
> 
> John  : )

But then we would hafta call him One Over Zero Powers.

{8^D

spike




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri May 21 20:07:57 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:07:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikuS2L8BIIQfHVkRPgHqLPtwv-mUBMs4kfurBX2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>
	<AANLkTim_tDcdyBOc1xFmd4tJFTte-SZLlxlG2i6j8o7W@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005210154.o4L1sc82017145@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BF5EDC2.9020502@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikuS2L8BIIQfHVkRPgHqLPtwv-mUBMs4kfurBX2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiljJLir1OpOZL1Gr1od3m6K_SMug5we99QKI8T9@mail.gmail.com>

David Lubkin wrote:
It recalls the story of the axe. First the handle was replaced, then
the head, but it retains continuity as the axe.

Is there a point in the extent of repairs needed that you'd consider
John-2 to be a different person, in the sense that the perfect copy
is?
>>>

I am more familiar with the story of the man who due to a neurological
disease, has over time a larger and larger percentage of his native
neurons replaced with artificial ones.  At what point does he stop
truly being himself?  Can this really even be quantified?  I just
don't know.

I have read some chilling science fiction stories about such
scenarios, but they are simply speculation.  I wonder whether such a
person would encounter "posthuman shock" as the process progressed,
but I have a (disturbing, I must admit) hunch they will probably
adjust fairly well and not suddenly feel alien to themselves.

Samantha Atkins wrote:
Me too.  I care more about the quality of the running instance, its
completeness and performance, than I care about platform.  I would
personally be delighted to be reanimated into a really good future
upload space with options to create one or more bodies of my choice
(human, android, defies description, whatever) to run around in
physical space when I so desired.    But that's me.  :)
>>>

Samantha, I'm going to be saying to you (the *you* who was scanned and
simulated in an android form) in the year 2100 (while in my reanimated
meat body)
that it's not really *you* but a near perfect copy/identical twin of
the original Samantha Atkins!  And this will be the source of
never-ending argument during our close to immortal lives!  I will
consider David Lubkin an authentic original (high resale value on
eBay!) unless he does a destructive scan to another substrate.  ; )

Samantha Atkins wrote:
I disagree with the notion of "just a copy".  But I don't want to
reopen the never ending continuity of identity debate at this time. :)
>>>

-Why not???  Evil laughter fading off into the night....

David Lubkin wrote:
For revival -- I tend to be a cautious and skeptical adopter of new
tech. My inclination is to come back in a meat body first and then
hear about the alternatives, rather than going straight to upload or
non-meat. I sure don't want to start in an upload and then find out
it's running on Windows 2055.
>>>

A smart plan.  I remember Paul Moller saying in an interview that he
was determined to not have the software for his flying cars be based
on Microsoft, or the airborne machines might end up regularly smashing
through people's roofs! lol  It could be even worse when it came to
uploads...

Mike Dougherty wrote:
Right, the old axe wasn't that sharp.
>>>

Well..., I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, either!

John  : )


On 5/20/10, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Damien Broderick
> <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:
>
>> On 5/20/2010 8:52 PM, David Lubkin wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> I view a perfect (or at least near-perfect) copy of me by scanning and
>>>> simulation as the ultimate in twin brothers, but not actually me.
>>>> It's the whole "self-circuit/continuity" thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It recalls the story of the axe. First the handle was replaced, then
>>> the head, but it retains continuity as the axe.
>>>
>>> Is there a point in the extent of repairs needed that you'd consider
>>> John-2 to be a different person, in the sense that the perfect copy
>>> is?
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't really recall that story. It recalls a story in which a very
>> worn axe head and splintery handle were replaced in one foul (rather than
>> fell) swoop by a gleaming new axe head and handle using the original
>> specs.
>> Terrific for anyone wanting a sturdy new axe, not so much fun for the
>> original axe. Luckily axes haven't got a clue.
>>
>
> Right, the old axe wasn't that sharp.
>


From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri May 21 20:13:02 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:13:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Those crazy-eyed optimists!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikb65gU-7w9YGJIyKe4ee3s0KO2PZ3eEro8V55x@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikb65gU-7w9YGJIyKe4ee3s0KO2PZ3eEro8V55x@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF6E94E.3010003@mac.com>

John Grigg wrote:
> Those darn optimists...
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/science/18tier.html
>   

Neither optimism or pessimism is realistic by definition.  Our economic 
situation is actually a very real and serious mess that could derail 
much of our plans.  Many of us said some of that back when things looked 
much more rosy.  Yeah, yeah, you have to be right sometime if your are 
consistent.   But people used to laugh at major dumps in the DOW being 
possible or oil priced over $100/barrel as sky is falling mind rot.   An 
energy war is not impossible and is likely from Peak Oil and eventually, 
if we get much real recovery, much higher demand.  We get nearly over 
70% of all energy from oil, natural gas and coal.    You could say US 
continued war in the Middle East is the beginning.  

So neither rose colored glasse or sackcloth and ashes seem to be called 
for.  Eyes wide open and do the best we can to resolve the challenges 
and move forward with our dreams.

- samantha



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri May 21 20:22:05 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:22:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <7CB51FE0333F4634AC333F4189EAC1EA@spike>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF5BD8E.6060704@satx.rr.com>
	<08B14CF0-884A-4203-AA56-3787E46DD574@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinPiw8P1GtHC1a2beTF6XyBZ34H4VNhrRhB9aeQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CB51FE0333F4634AC333F4189EAC1EA@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilbCvtoNEI_oFtpHjm0NPIZpkFFdILBvlHNpW63@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 1:42 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> But then we would hafta call him One Over Zero Powers.
>
> {8^D
>
> spike

Sweet.

Now a little something to add to the thread:

Eight Synthetic Biology Experts Talk about Life After the First Synthetic Cell

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/05/eight-synthetic-biology-experts-talk.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Fadvancednano+%28nextbigfuture%29&utm_content=Yahoo!+Mail

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                       Ray Charles


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri May 21 20:28:50 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 16:28:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Holy Schlamoley! Venter's team creates synthetic life!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilbCvtoNEI_oFtpHjm0NPIZpkFFdILBvlHNpW63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimgX8RdGAL83kBWMYu7u8glF1XeD6Da3vzElxMp@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF5BD8E.6060704@satx.rr.com>
	<08B14CF0-884A-4203-AA56-3787E46DD574@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTinPiw8P1GtHC1a2beTF6XyBZ34H4VNhrRhB9aeQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CB51FE0333F4634AC333F4189EAC1EA@spike>
	<AANLkTilbCvtoNEI_oFtpHjm0NPIZpkFFdILBvlHNpW63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100521162850.trvt3qe2owoowssg@webmail.natasha.cc>


Here:  http://www.nature.com/



Quoting Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>:

> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 1:42 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> But then we would hafta call him One Over Zero Powers.
>>
>> {8^D
>>
>> spike
>
> Sweet.
>
> Now a little something to add to the thread:
>
> Eight Synthetic Biology Experts Talk about Life After the First   
> Synthetic Cell
>
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/05/eight-synthetic-biology-experts-talk.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Fadvancednano+%28nextbigfuture%29&utm_content=Yahoo!+Mail
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>  "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                        Ray Charles
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri May 21 23:12:13 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 01:12:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B8DD623D8824E4AB1A555CBB4A3E80B@spike>
	<201005171735.o4HHZdao009793@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<7E85CC04D61A41F5BFA13B7374085809@spike>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AA8EF7C39C7F43E38C56646EE40E0B1C@spike>
	<AANLkTilr14WGTVeg72atF7gwEClKZ00Qlq_s6clCf97_@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF2D16C.7050603@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin1DeYj4WtxmW8HeBGxAxKKsb8VLry0eppW2t_0@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 May 2010 19:42, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Which makes me wonder how this works when for decades you have paid an
> insurance company for the specific purpose of having Alcor freeze your head,
> then that is prevented (your body is lost at sea, or your head crushed by a
> trip hammer, or your dearly beloved relatives have your remains buried)--is
> the company no longer obliged to pay anyone anything, or does the loot go to
> the estate, or to Alcor's coffers, or what?

Most of sensible contracts (possibly integrated  by last wills) would
provide for such events, and most reasonable jurisdictions would honor
both.

If nothing has been provided? I would say that the insurer would be in
the position to profit from the turn of  events which made the
fulfilment of its obligation impossible.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri May 21 23:22:14 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 01:22:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting weird
In-Reply-To: <4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTimyk9qydR1WsppWpDfe6resMvl42Wj9Fwn0Nyzh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilRgoPtaFq2J5hg-QvQWn0_9upKKANqs2p_RP7x@mail.gmail.com>
	<945CAB3E3CA74B35BF50DE9A7E7A1BBD@spike>
	<4BF1A1DD.1080209@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil4hCgnV7mquR6BOXZ73ggrgNtTqZv5RuJyECYS@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF1B0D0.2080705@satx.rr.com>
	<66943.25585.qm@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<29D2F41C2AB64F06845369D5E2B78383@spike>
	<462670.63007.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4BF2EA3C.1030600@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimty66oYF0efgU0qLVHaPhJAftgQf3Jc9iwvfxg@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/18 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:
> False.? They paid you for a chance at future life.? Not to freeze whatever
> remnant of fresh even if it is utterly hopeless to be any more than a
> symbolic act.

Why, motives of a given party when entering into a contract are not
necessarily relevant as to the parties  rights or obligations under
the same contract.

> Sure, but there is at least the possibility.? A year after dead with no
> preservation there is none whatsoever.

It is not for the court to say when the possibility stops, unless this
requirement is clearly indicated in the contract. The assessment of
the chances for resuscitation is speculative anyway, and even the
concept of "resuscitation", as discussed elsewhere, is not too
precise.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat May 22 03:27:01 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 20:27:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
Message-ID: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

My friend Ilsa Bartlett (currently studying to be a Buddhist Chaplain)
wanted me to share these thoughts of hers with the list...

Ilsa Bartlett wrote:
I so want to add that from a chaplain's point of view the dead person
has no say after he or she dies and that unless there is a tight power
of attorney who will shepard the dead man's wishes, the living
relatives have the right to do whatever they want.  And legally can
both retain the money paid and do with the body according to their
desires.  Imagine that you have no legal say once you are DEAD!

My daughter told me that I can say anything I want, but that she would
do what she wants, once I am dead.  But in my hospice training I was
taught the actual law that makes my daughter's words the legal truth!
You can check this on the Zen hospice website or with any hospital.
How is it that the Extropes think Alcor is beyond the same laws that
makes the power of attorney stronger than a will or contract?
>>>

I will relay any responses back to her.

John


From algaenymph at gmail.com  Sat May 22 00:55:20 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 17:55:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Those crazy-eyed optimists!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikb65gU-7w9YGJIyKe4ee3s0KO2PZ3eEro8V55x@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikb65gU-7w9YGJIyKe4ee3s0KO2PZ3eEro8V55x@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF72B78.4020806@gmail.com>

John Grigg wrote:
> Those darn optimists...
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/science/18tier.html
>   
Let me sum up most of the comments: 
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/science/18tier.html

"Ridley's an ignoramus!  He's a running dog of the bourgeoisie 
imperialists!  His so-called progress is really that devil Consumerism!  
(Boooooo!)  Have Nature and non-whites benefited?  Huh, have they?"

I rage at what my fellow liberals have become.  Know what solution I'm 
being given in college?  "Let's be more like Cuba!"  Where, when, how, 
and why did we go wrong?

P.S.  Don't make this a big dump on the socialists here, political 
infighting is a lot of energy spent on a lot of nothing and you know it.

P.P.S. I've got nothing against libertarianism, I just think it has 
negative political clout.




From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat May 22 14:53:54 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 10:53:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinDVsILkTuYaXXqVREO_Ggj_efnUuz23irKKfrH@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:27 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> desires.  Imagine that you have no legal say once you are DEAD!
>
> My daughter told me that I can say anything I want, but that she would
> do what she wants, once I am dead.  But in my hospice training I was
> taught the actual law that makes my daughter's words the legal truth!
> You can check this on the Zen hospice website or with any hospital.
> How is it that the Extropes think Alcor is beyond the same laws that
> makes the power of attorney stronger than a will or contract?
>

So there is even more reason to try to avoid the legal status of dead.

Suppose I am a member of an organization who is legally empowered to act on
that organization's behalf and I sign a contract with a vendor to provide
services (ex: catering or cleaning service).  After that contract is signed,
I leave that organization.  Is the contract void because I left?  Seems
obvious that is an absurd expectation.  So if I am a member of the living
who contracts service from a preservation service provider, why is my
contract expected to be void simply because I am no longer a member of the
living?

Assuming that the dead have no rights nullifies estate law and any reason to
have a Will.  Without a legal document stating my intention for what to do
with all the stuff I acquire in life, my neighbors might well claim to have
rights to my possessions.  With that legal document there is an expectation
that my intentions will be honored by authority of that contract.  If i
create a trust for the beautification of a local park and fund it with
$100k, do my surviving family have the right to consume those funds and
ignore the park?  I have no idea what the law says on that.  It might be
that wills are executed primarily due to the living's respect for the
recently deceased - and that any disrespectful party can violate that
societal convention.  If that's true though, society loses a great deal of
order and becomes a primitive grab for whatever I can no longer control.

I think the perspective of a Buddhist Chaplain will lean towards a
philosophical unattachment to material wealth.  If the body is viewed as a
primary material possession then leaving the body behind would be a
testimony towards the value of (mere) things.  I have to imagine there is
some appreciation for the rules of our material world to have
value-for-value exchange of goods even when it is a distraction from a
higher purpose.

On the idea of the body as the primary physical presence to secure rights in
the physical world, does one relinquish all other physical assets by
uploading to a non-corporeal "cloud-based" existence?  I don't think our
laws are currently able to answer these questions; precedence has not been
set.
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat May 22 15:45:40 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 10:45:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98FBC2B3108349EABB463003F80F01DC@DFC68LF1>

Hi John,

Tell your friends need to have a Will drawn up to protect her wishes. And
anyone, including her daughter, can try to contest it through probate; but
if it is proper legal testament, it will be upheld by the Court.  

I don't see a connection with Alcor because Alcor respectfully and legally
follows the instructions as stated in the Will of the deceased.


Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 10:27 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread

Hello everyone,

My friend Ilsa Bartlett (currently studying to be a Buddhist Chaplain)
wanted me to share these thoughts of hers with the list...

Ilsa Bartlett wrote:
I so want to add that from a chaplain's point of view the dead person has no
say after he or she dies and that unless there is a tight power of attorney
who will shepard the dead man's wishes, the living relatives have the right
to do whatever they want.  And legally can both retain the money paid and do
with the body according to their desires.  Imagine that you have no legal
say once you are DEAD!

My daughter told me that I can say anything I want, but that she would do
what she wants, once I am dead.  But in my hospice training I was taught the
actual law that makes my daughter's words the legal truth!
You can check this on the Zen hospice website or with any hospital.
How is it that the Extropes think Alcor is beyond the same laws that makes
the power of attorney stronger than a will or contract?
>>>

I will relay any responses back to her.

John
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat May 22 15:57:51 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 08:57:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Multiple subjects.
Message-ID: <AANLkTin_AbrVQQ15AnOy9vWueEAtiiKxfHOcHy9uWWmD@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 5:00 AM,
<extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>
> On 18 May 2010 19:42, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> Which makes me wonder how this works when for decades you have paid an
>> insurance company for the specific purpose of having Alcor freeze your head,
>> then that is prevented (your body is lost at sea, or your head crushed by a
>> trip hammer, or your dearly beloved relatives have your remains buried)--is
>> the company no longer obliged to pay anyone anything, or does the loot go to
>> the estate, or to Alcor's coffers, or what?

Insurance companies pay the named beneficiary when presented evidence
of death (such as a death certificate).

> Most of sensible contracts (possibly integrated ?by last wills) would
> provide for such events, and most reasonable jurisdictions would honor
> both.

Alcor paperwork is comprehensive.

> If nothing has been provided? I would say that the insurer would be in
> the position to profit from the turn of ?events which made the
> fulfilment of its obligation impossible.

No, with named exceptions, such as suicide in the first two years,
insurance must pay off.

> From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>

> Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread

> Hello everyone,
>
> My friend Ilsa Bartlett (currently studying to be a Buddhist Chaplain)
> wanted me to share these thoughts of hers with the list...
>
> Ilsa Bartlett wrote:
> I so want to add that from a chaplain's point of view the dead person
> has no say after he or she dies and that unless there is a tight power
> of attorney who will shepard the dead man's wishes, the living
> relatives have the right to do whatever they want.

Or a contract.

>And legally can
> both retain the money paid and do with the body according to their
> desires. ?Imagine that you have no legal say once you are DEAD!
>
> My daughter told me that I can say anything I want, but that she would
> do what she wants, once I am dead. ?But in my hospice training I was
> taught the actual law that makes my daughter's words the legal truth!
> You can check this on the Zen hospice website or with any hospital.
> How is it that the Extropes think Alcor is beyond the same laws that
> makes the power of attorney stronger than a will or contract?

You might note that a court just agreed with Alcor.

> From: AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com>

> Subject: Re: [ExI] Those crazy-eyed optimists!

> Let me sum up most of the comments:
> http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/science/18tier.html
>
> "Ridley's an ignoramus! ?He's a running dog of the bourgeoisie
> imperialists! ?His so-called progress is really that devil Consumerism!

The comments were anything but uniform.  The comments on the article
were closed or I would have mentioned that there are two energy
proposals that displace fossil fuels by being less expensive, so much
so that reasonable priced synthetic gasoline can be expected.

> (Boooooo!)  Have Nature and non-whites benefited?  Huh, have they?"

Take a look at figure 1 here:
http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/Capitalism%20Genes.pdf

snip

> P.P.S. I've got nothing against libertarianism, I just think it has
> negative political clout.

It has more clout than you might think.  Most of the political change
in the world is driven by technical innovation.  The majority of the
people doing the innovation have libertarian attitudes even if they
seldom talk about politics.  I know a few of these people such as the
ones who invented public key encryption.

Keith



From giulio at gmail.com  Sat May 22 16:17:09 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 18:17:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation" petition
	signature
In-Reply-To: <20100522161426.243527C146@www.ipetitions.com>
References: <20100522161426.243527C146@www.ipetitions.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinN4xPVC8aW8eSyKtv8QHWaEL0hpJhYr6J7s1Gc@mail.gmail.com>

I wish to encourage everyone to sign this petition:

Hi,

I wanted to draw your attention to this important petition that I
recently signed:

"Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/brainpreservation/

I really think this is an important cause, and I'd like to encourage
you to add your signature, too. It's free and takes just a few seconds
of your time.

Thanks!


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sat May 22 16:37:46 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 10:37:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
In-Reply-To: <98FBC2B3108349EABB463003F80F01DC@DFC68LF1>
References: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
	<98FBC2B3108349EABB463003F80F01DC@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <035B51B48EAA4EAFB48733EE766B05F9@3DBOXXW4850>

A legal contract is a legal contract and one where cryonics is concerned, 
specifically states that this is instructions for after ones death. This is 
why the courts sided with Alcor in the recent case, because they were 
abiding by a legal contract.

And Natasha is right, if you are really worried about it, a will helps.
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
www.nanogirl.com



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha at natasha.cc>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread


> Hi John,
>
> Tell your friends need to have a Will drawn up to protect her wishes. And
> anyone, including her daughter, can try to contest it through probate; but
> if it is proper legal testament, it will be upheld by the Court.
>
> I don't see a connection with Alcor because Alcor respectfully and legally
> follows the instructions as stated in the Will of the deceased.
>
>
> Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 10:27 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> My friend Ilsa Bartlett (currently studying to be a Buddhist Chaplain)
> wanted me to share these thoughts of hers with the list...
>
> Ilsa Bartlett wrote:
> I so want to add that from a chaplain's point of view the dead person has 
> no
> say after he or she dies and that unless there is a tight power of 
> attorney
> who will shepard the dead man's wishes, the living relatives have the 
> right
> to do whatever they want.  And legally can both retain the money paid and 
> do
> with the body according to their desires.  Imagine that you have no legal
> say once you are DEAD!
>
> My daughter told me that I can say anything I want, but that she would do
> what she wants, once I am dead.  But in my hospice training I was taught 
> the
> actual law that makes my daughter's words the legal truth!
> You can check this on the Zen hospice website or with any hospital.
> How is it that the Extropes think Alcor is beyond the same laws that makes
> the power of attorney stronger than a will or contract?
>>>>
>
> I will relay any responses back to her.
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat May 22 17:44:01 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:44:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting more respect from the courts
In-Reply-To: <4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 May 2010 19:22, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Not at all sure that "essentialist" is the right word to describe someone
> like me. "Continuist" or something, maybe, if there is such a philosophical
> category.

Never paid attention to the fact that you were one... ;-)

But let me understand your stance better: do you demand that any
arbitrarily low degree of material continuity is never broken at any
instant (as in Moravec-style uploading or in the seven-year cycle of
biological replacement of human molecules), but accept for the rest a
definition of identity which might allow for the entire replacement of
the "substratum" provided that such continuity is conserved, or...? In
fact, in my "relativistic" view on the issue, this might well have at
least some symbolic meaning...

And even in such case, would you really consider teleport as "death"?

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat May 22 18:02:32 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 13:02:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in The
	Economist
Message-ID: <AANLkTinU2aNmcStgYYOkXpSKYbokp9DObHYQKD1BlXeW@mail.gmail.com>

Synthetic biology: And man made life;
Artificial life, the stuff of dreams and nightmares, has arrived
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=16163154

See below for a review of the proactionary principle, too.

"""
TO CREATE life is the prerogative of gods. Deep in the human psyche,
whatever the rational pleadings of physics and chemistry, there exists
a sense that biology is different, is more than just the sum of atoms
moving about and reacting with one another, is somehow infused with a
divine spark, a vital essence. It may come as a shock, then, that mere
mortals have now made artificial life.

Craig Venter and Hamilton Smith, the two American biologists who
unravelled the first DNA sequence of a living organism (a bacterium)
in 1995, have made a bacterium that has an artificial genome?creating
a living creature with no ancestor (see article). Pedants may quibble
that only the DNA of the new beast was actually manufactured in a
laboratory; the researchers had to use the shell of an existing bug to
get that DNA to do its stuff. Nevertheless, a Rubicon has been
crossed. It is now possible to conceive of a world in which new
bacteria (and eventually, new animals and plants) are designed on a
computer and then grown to order.

That ability would prove mankind?s mastery over nature in a way more
profound than even the detonation of the first atomic bomb. The bomb,
however justified in the context of the second world war, was purely
destructive. Biology is about nurturing and growth. Synthetic biology,
as the technology that this and myriad less eye-catching advances are
ushering in has been dubbed, promises much. In the short term it
promises better drugs, less thirsty crops (see article), greener fuels
and even a rejuvenated chemical industry. In the longer term who knows
what marvels could be designed and grown?

On the face of it, then, artificial life looks like a wonderful thing.
Yet that is not how many will view the announcement. For them, a
better word than ?creation? is ?tampering?. Have scientists got too
big for their boots? Will their hubris bring Nemesis in due course?
What horrors will come creeping out of the flask on the laboratory
bench?

Such questions are not misplaced?and should give pause even to those,
including this newspaper, who normally embrace advances in science
with enthusiasm. The new biological science does have the potential to
do great harm, as well as good. ?Predator? and ?disease? are just as
much part of the biological vocabulary as ?nurturing? and ?growth?.
But for good or ill it is here. Creating life is no longer the
prerogative of gods.
Children of a lesser god

It will be a while, yet, before lifeforms are routinely designed on a
laptop. But this will come. The past decade, since the completion of
the Human Genome Project, has seen two related developments that make
it almost inevitable. One is an extraordinary rise in the speed, and
fall in the cost, of analysing the DNA sequences that encode the
natural ?software? of life. What once took years and cost millions now
takes days and costs thousands. Databases are filling up with the
genomes of everything from the tiniest virus to the tallest tree.

These genomes are the raw material for synthetic biology. First, they
will provide an understanding of how biology works right down to the
atomic level. That can then be modelled in human-designed software so
that synthetic biologists will be able to assemble new constellations
of genes with a reasonable presumption that they will work in a
predictable way. Second, the genome databases are a warehouse that can
be raided for whatever part a synthetic biologist requires.

The other development is faster and cheaper DNA synthesis. This has
lagged a few years behind DNA analysis, but seems to be heading in the
same direction. That means it will soon be possible for almost anybody
to make DNA to order, and dabble in synthetic biology.

That is good, up to a point. Innovation works best when it is a game
that anyone can play. The more ideas there are, the better the chance
some will prosper. Unfortunately and inevitably, some of those ideas
will be malicious. And the problem with malicious biological
inventions?unlike, say, guns and explosives?is that once released,
they can breed by themselves.

Biology really is different

The Home Brew computing club launched Steve Jobs and Apple, but
similar ventures produced a thousand computer viruses. What if a
home-brew synthetic-biology club were accidentally to launch a real
virus or bacterium? What if a terrorist were to do the same
deliberately?

The risk of accidentally creating something bad is probably low. Most
bacteria opt for an easy life breaking down organic material that is
already dead. It doesn?t fight back. Living hosts do. Creating
something bad deliberately, whether the creator is a teenage hacker, a
terrorist or a rogue state, is a different matter. No one now knows
how easy it would be to turbo-charge an existing human pathogen, or
take one that infects another type of animal and assist its passage
over the species barrier. We will soon find out, though.

It is hard to know how to address this threat. The reflex, to restrict
and ban, has worked (albeit far from perfectly) for more traditional
sorts of biological weapons. Those, though, have been in the hands of
states. The ubiquity of computer viruses shows what can happen when
technology gets distributed.

Thoughtful observers of synthetic biology favour a different approach:
openness. This avoids shutting out the good in a belated attempt to
prevent the bad. Knowledge cannot be unlearned, so the best way to
oppose the villains is to have lots of heroes on your side. Then, when
a problem arises, an answer can be found quickly. If pathogens can be
designed by laptop, vaccines can be, too. And, just as ?open source?
software lets white-hat computer nerds work against the black-hats, so
open-source biology would encourage white-hat geneticists.

Regulation?and, especially, vigilance?will still be needed. Keeping an
eye out for novel diseases is sensible even when such diseases are
natural. Monitoring needs to be redoubled and co-ordinated. Then,
whether natural or artificial, the full weight of synthetic biology
can be brought to bear on the problem. Encourage the good to outwit
the bad and, with luck, you keep Nemesis at bay.
"""

In other words, The Economist was writing about the proactionary
principle, which goes something like this: "People?s freedom to
innovate technologically is highly valuable, even critical, to
humanity. This implies several imperatives when restrictive measures
are proposed: Assess risks and opportunities according to available
science, not popular perception.  Account for both the costs of the
restrictions themselves, and those of opportunities foregone.  Favor
measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of
impacts, and that have a high expectation value.  Protect people?s
freedom to experiment, innovate, and progress. [...] Let a thousand
flowers bloom! By all means, inspect the flowers for signs of
infestation and weed as necessary. But don?t cut off the hands of
those who spread the seeds of the future."

with more elaboration here:
http://www.extropy.org/proactionaryprinciple.htm

In past cultures (and indeed still in some cultures to this day) we
prayed to the gods or elemental powers of the world to please not
reign plagues and death upon us. Maybe we're not past that particular
mental picture of the world; we still blame each other and the
elements for our limitations and existential risks. How do we make
sure a system doesn't fail- regardless of what type of threat and risk
we perceive (in this case, biological)? So far the public discourse
has helped form an answer to this question and more, such as the
proactionary principle. Here's to hoping for more of the same..

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat May 22 18:06:42 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 20:06:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Zombie Jesus
In-Reply-To: <201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim2OTKNjD_qXEAOL71JuREuQxydTuY9PZlgraJu@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 May 2010 20:43, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Jesus was a zombie? I like it!

According to catholic dogma, Jesus actually died, remain dead for
three days, and resuscitated in flesh and bones, even though he was
somewhat "transfigured" after the experience.

This might refer to the fact that actually he was not really the same
person, but simply a body without qualia simply behaving in fashion
similar to his former self... ;-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From algaenymph at gmail.com  Sat May 22 16:27:10 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 09:27:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
 petition signature
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinN4xPVC8aW8eSyKtv8QHWaEL0hpJhYr6J7s1Gc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100522161426.243527C146@www.ipetitions.com>
	<AANLkTinN4xPVC8aW8eSyKtv8QHWaEL0hpJhYr6J7s1Gc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF805DE.9040307@gmail.com>

Giulio Prisco wrote:
> I really think this is an important cause, and I'd like to encourage
> you to add your signature, too. It's free and takes just a few seconds
> of your time.
>   
Agreed.  Signed and forwarded. :)


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat May 22 18:26:17 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 13:26:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>

On 5/22/2010 12:44 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On 20 May 2010 19:22, Damien Broderick<thespike at satx.rr.com>  wrote:
>> Not at all sure that "essentialist" is the right word to describe someone
>> like me. "Continuist" or something, maybe, if there is such a philosophical
>> category.

> let me understand your stance better: do you demand that any
> arbitrarily low degree of material continuity is never broken at any
> instant (as in Moravec-style uploading or in the seven-year cycle of
> biological replacement of human molecules), but accept for the rest a
> definition of identity which might allow for the entire replacement of
> the "substratum" provided that such continuity is conserved

In brief, yes.

> And even in such case, would you really consider teleport as "death"?

Only if it destroys the original. Otherwise it's a kind of high-fidelity 
copying or cloning. (I discussed this in THE SPIKE and we should 
probably not go on with it now any further for fear of igniting a 
tedious "Yes it is" "No it's not" endless thread.)

I might as well add, though, that this is my provisional conclusion. If 
it turns out that there *is* something like a "soul" that flits from 
body to body and that comprises the core of continuing identity, I'd 
probably change my opinion. Or if there's a sort of resonance archive 
maintained outside the body that constantly interacts with the brain (as 
in my novel THE DREAMING and several of Spider Robinson's sf novels), 
that would also modify my view. Parapsychological claims do seem to 
support such a possibility, but I remain unconvinced. Note that I am not 
talking about religious doctrines or dogmas, except to whatever extent 
such traditions happen to encapsulate experiences that more rigorous 
methods (especially repeatable and highly theorized scientific 
empiricism) have so far failed to incorporate, or declined to investigate.

Damien Broderick



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat May 22 18:35:58 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 13:35:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Zombie Jesus
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2OTKNjD_qXEAOL71JuREuQxydTuY9PZlgraJu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>	<201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTim2OTKNjD_qXEAOL71JuREuQxydTuY9PZlgraJu@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF8240E.7010402@satx.rr.com>

On 5/22/2010 1:06 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> According to catholic dogma, Jesus actually died, remain dead for
> three days

Well, in actual duration one full day plus maybe a half day. His corpse 
is taken down on Friday evening before sundown (which is when Saturday 
or the Sabbath begins for Jews, IIUC), sealed into a crypt (encrypted?), 
and by early Sunday morning he's flown the coop.

Damien Broderick


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat May 22 20:17:16 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 14:17:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinEawzWCO-hHwUjGaX2nS_USmde3uT5bKK51Bfh@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 9:27 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ilsa Bartlett wrote:
> I so want to add that from a chaplain's point of view the dead person  has no say after he or she dies and that unless there is a tight power  of attorney who will shepard the dead man's wishes, the living  relatives have the right to do whatever they want. ?And legally can  both retain the money paid and do with the body according to their  desires. ?Imagine that you have no legal say once you are DEAD!

                      **********************

There are local, state and federal laws, and different laws in
different countries.  I'm not sure how much credence I can give to the
above, but clearly, for cryonicists, it is a serious concern.

If the rights of the deceased are in question, the rights of the
living must serve.  Be scrupulous in the preparation of your will.
Place your estate with a trusted person or institution prior to your
death.  And, if needs be, legally terminate the kinship relationship
and its consequences.  Children can sue to be "emancipated" from their
parents.  Seek out the legal equivalent that will "emancipate" you
from your default kinship relationships and their defects.

As with Mr. Richardson. the woman whose daughter has declared that she
will do as she (the daughter) pleases, and has the law on her side,
...the woman has been forewarned.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                       Ray Charles



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun May 23 02:12:58 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:12:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF88F2A.40707@mac.com>

John Grigg wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> My friend Ilsa Bartlett (currently studying to be a Buddhist Chaplain)
> wanted me to share these thoughts of hers with the list...
>
> Ilsa Bartlett wrote:
> I so want to add that from a chaplain's point of view the dead person
> has no say after he or she dies and that unless there is a tight power
> of attorney who will shepard the dead man's wishes, the living
> relatives have the right to do whatever they want.  And legally can
> both retain the money paid and do with the body according to their
> desires.  Imagine that you have no legal say once you are DEAD!
>   
> My daughter told me that I can say anything I want, but that she would
> do what she wants, once I am dead.  
I know these matters are delicate.  But if a relative of mine told me 
upfront that they would ignore my dying wishes and terms of my will, 
especially in a matter that is [future, however tenuous] life or [final] 
death, I would disown them on the spot and write them out my will.    
This stuff is deadly serious.

- samantha



From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun May 23 02:18:11 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 20:18:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread
In-Reply-To: <4BF88F2A.40707@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTim3DDroRRYXmjwa8t2eZoXDqRwNRz_9T7GLa_Gg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF88F2A.40707@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4DAB2F3D8ECB45AE8D5EEB9F3A8717E7@3DBOXXW4850>

Right! My mom and I have very different ideas about what should be done 
after we are gone. But we respect each others wishes, and why wouldn't you, 
if you love someone.

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
www.nanogirl.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "samantha" <sjatkins at mac.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Ilsa Bartlett comments about our cryonics thread


> John Grigg wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> My friend Ilsa Bartlett (currently studying to be a Buddhist Chaplain)
>> wanted me to share these thoughts of hers with the list...
>>
>> Ilsa Bartlett wrote:
>> I so want to add that from a chaplain's point of view the dead person
>> has no say after he or she dies and that unless there is a tight power
>> of attorney who will shepard the dead man's wishes, the living
>> relatives have the right to do whatever they want.  And legally can
>> both retain the money paid and do with the body according to their
>> desires.  Imagine that you have no legal say once you are DEAD!
>>   My daughter told me that I can say anything I want, but that she would
>> do what she wants, once I am dead.
> I know these matters are delicate.  But if a relative of mine told me 
> upfront that they would ignore my dying wishes and terms of my will, 
> especially in a matter that is [future, however tenuous] life or [final] 
> death, I would disown them on the spot and write them out my will.    This 
> stuff is deadly serious.
>
> - samantha
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat May 22 17:58:42 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 18:58:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics and reanimation/simulation
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiljJLir1OpOZL1Gr1od3m6K_SMug5we99QKI8T9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilOpCPZmGN2hVbsXpg4ZjSDg9ZAvAXRf3t3prp4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF47640.9000004@mac.com>
	<AANLkTim_tDcdyBOc1xFmd4tJFTte-SZLlxlG2i6j8o7W@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005210154.o4L1sc82017145@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<4BF5EDC2.9020502@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikuS2L8BIIQfHVkRPgHqLPtwv-mUBMs4kfurBX2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiljJLir1OpOZL1Gr1od3m6K_SMug5we99QKI8T9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9169DD67-5503-453C-8681-61E585AF2AD3@gmail.com>

Why consider artificial neuron replacement and not natural neuron  
replacement? Over the course of months, almost all the atoms in your  
brain are replaced by metabolic processes. Only the (rough) form  
remains. Are you dead, or have you survived?

--
Stathis Papaioannou


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun May 23 10:38:00 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 12:38:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
	petition signature
In-Reply-To: <4BF8446F.9020803@canonizer.com>
References: <20100522161426.243527C146@www.ipetitions.com>
	<AANLkTinN4xPVC8aW8eSyKtv8QHWaEL0hpJhYr6J7s1Gc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF8446F.9020803@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTillz6poleTeQFjC6JRwgCEH31vlhQSF2S99EiEw@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarding from Brent who cannot post to the list.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com>
Date: Sat, May 22, 2010 at 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
petition signature
To: giulio at gmail.com



Hi Giulio,

There is a current problem with the ExI list server, and it will not
accept posts from me. ?Max, Spike and people are working on the
problem. ?So I wondered if you would be interested in forwarding this
response to the ExI list?

Thanks,

Brent Allsop

=======================================================

Giulio,

In my opinion, such primitive petitions are, and this petition
specifically, is inefficient, immoral and hateful.

* *I don't agree with everything as currently stated:* ?For one thing,
for me, using words like 'demand', is far to strong. ?I hope for
perfect justice some day, so I'm good with other's getting what they
want first, trusting that such is an investment in the future, and
they'll have to eventually make it up to me. ?There is much there that
I do agree with, and I don't want to lose the fact that some people
want to use words like 'demand'. ?Petitions systems like canonizer.com
supports all such. ?You can include everything everyone agrees on, in
the higher level supper 'camps', and include supporting sub camps,
some using strong words like 'demand' and some not, so you can get a
precise, quantitative measure of just what everyone thinks on all
this. ?And this is not to mention the various diverse beliefs about
what are the best methods (chemical, cryogenic, whole body...) for
preservation... for which this statement is obviously needlessly
biased towards one.

* *Primitive*: ?Once I, or anyone, invest effort in signing such a
petition, it is locked in stone and can never change. ?Going in to the
future, this petition will ?get progressively out of date and
worthless as the world changes, and there are specific needs to come
in the future, that such should be able to adapt to, as they occur.
Modern petition systems, such as the one at canonizer.com, do ?not
suffer from this problem. ?The statement can always improve in a
collaborative wiki way, as long as all supporters don't object during
the 1 week proposed change review period.

* *Inefficient:* The original authors of any such system are condemned
to spending an infinite amount of time in a futile effort trying to
survey for what everyone thinks is the best way to say whatever it
says. ?Either that or try to forcefly twist the words to say just what
only the original authors want, in a way that will hopefully not keep
to many people from not signing it. ?It is impossible for any one to
ever achieve this perfectly with such a system. ?Modern wiki open
survey systems like canonizer.com don't suffer from this problem, and
everyone can work together to come up with very efficient ways to
collaboratively develop concise and quantitative representations of
precisely what everyone believes. ?And it changes very dynamically
going forward, so it can hallways be up to date as scientific data
falsifies various beliefs and so on causing people to jump camps.
Also, if people aren't interested in participating in dialogue and
descussion, or aren't an expert on a particular moral topic, they can
delegate their vote to another supporter, and thereby still fully and
efficiently be counted and involved.

* *Immoral and hateful*: ?Because of the way primitive petitions like
this work, it is apparent that those pushing for signatures, hate and
want to destroy or ignore anyone with any different point of view or
differing wants. ?To me, any time one fails to acknowledge any
diversity of desire, it is hateful. ?Canonizer.com does not suffer
from this, as there is room for all desires to be developed, concisely
stated, quantitatively measured, and most importantly - acknowledged.

* *No way to know who signatories are:* With canonizer.com, you can
browse through all the supporters of any camp, and find out who they
are, what reputation they have, what other beliefs they have, and so
on. ?You can specify algorithms to select people with values that
match your own, to survey specifically what people you trust (while
ignoring people with values you don't trust) believe... (and, if
desired or necessary, people can 'support' petitions anonymously, and
of course, if the reader wants, they will be able to filter such
support out....)

And another similar petition has already started here
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/86 (obviously still needs a lot more
work), so starting up and spending time on yet another one, that will
likely be worthless in a few years, it seems to me, fractures
everything and is a big waste of time.

Brent Allsop


Giulio Prisco wrote:
>
> I wish to encourage everyone to sign this petition:
>
> Hi,
>
> I wanted to draw your attention to this important petition that I
> recently signed:
>
> "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
> http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/brainpreservation/
>
> I really think this is an important cause, and I'd like to encourage
> you to add your signature, too. It's free and takes just a few seconds
> of your time.
>
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun May 23 13:24:52 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 23:24:52 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics is getting more respect from the courts
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimAHLXMCSnhBqhx_b2ESXfAFvZiWiADSfa7sNds@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 May 2010 03:44, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 May 2010 19:22, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> Not at all sure that "essentialist" is the right word to describe someone
>> like me. "Continuist" or something, maybe, if there is such a philosophical
>> category.
>
> Never paid attention to the fact that you were one... ;-)
>
> But let me understand your stance better: do you demand that any
> arbitrarily low degree of material continuity is never broken at any
> instant (as in Moravec-style uploading or in the seven-year cycle of
> biological replacement of human molecules), but accept for the rest a
> definition of identity which might allow for the entire replacement of
> the "substratum" provided that such continuity is conserved, or...? In
> fact, in my "relativistic" view on the issue, this might well have at
> least some symbolic meaning...

The replacement is probably faster than 7 years, especially for a
metabolically active tissue such as brain. The following papers
suggest that neuronal proteins in mice turn over
with a half-life of between 15 hours and 10 days (other neuronal
components such as water and ions would of course turn over much more
quickly):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1259983

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1164796

The following report relating to studies on rat embryonic neurons
suggests a very rapid turnover at synaptic junctions, such that within
10 hours the entire synaptic structure has been completely replaced:

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/news_articles/news_article_synapses.htm


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun May 23 13:41:23 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 23:41:23 +1000
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim0qjwexgBfUB3EKNpImxFMmfKVmqiQ0aV9FKpq@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 May 2010 04:26, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2010 12:44 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
>> On 20 May 2010 19:22, Damien Broderick<thespike at satx.rr.com> ?wrote:
>>>
>>> Not at all sure that "essentialist" is the right word to describe someone
>>> like me. "Continuist" or something, maybe, if there is such a
>>> philosophical
>>> category.
>
>> let me understand your stance better: do you demand that any
>> arbitrarily low degree of material continuity is never broken at any
>> instant (as in Moravec-style uploading or in the seven-year cycle of
>> biological replacement of human molecules), but accept for the rest a
>> definition of identity which might allow for the entire replacement of
>> the "substratum" provided that such continuity is conserved
>
> In brief, yes.
>
>> And even in such case, would you really consider teleport as "death"?
>
> Only if it destroys the original. Otherwise it's a kind of high-fidelity
> copying or cloning. (I discussed this in THE SPIKE and we should probably
> not go on with it now any further for fear of igniting a tedious "Yes it is"
> "No it's not" endless thread.)
>
> I might as well add, though, that this is my provisional conclusion. If it
> turns out that there *is* something like a "soul" that flits from body to
> body and that comprises the core of continuing identity, I'd probably change
> my opinion. Or if there's a sort of resonance archive maintained outside the
> body that constantly interacts with the brain (as in my novel THE DREAMING
> and several of Spider Robinson's sf novels), that would also modify my view.
> Parapsychological claims do seem to support such a possibility, but I remain
> unconvinced. Note that I am not talking about religious doctrines or dogmas,
> except to whatever extent such traditions happen to encapsulate experiences
> that more rigorous methods (especially repeatable and highly theorized
> scientific empiricism) have so far failed to incorporate, or declined to
> investigate.

I don't want to start one of those discussions that everyone here
hates but I'm trying to understand what would and would not qualify as
maintaining continuity and not destroying the original. For example,
if every atom in your body were shifted 1 metre to your left would
that be OK? What if the shift was one atom at a time rather than all
at once, but still fast enough that it register as instantaneous to
human senses? What if during the process the atoms were discarded but
replaced with equivalent atoms, as occurs at a slower rate during
normal metabolism?


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun May 23 14:40:44 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 16:40:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Zombie Jesus
In-Reply-To: <4BF8240E.7010402@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<201005201845.o4KIjprS006215@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTim2OTKNjD_qXEAOL71JuREuQxydTuY9PZlgraJu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF8240E.7010402@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilH17abwGFMcE_QPFJaaEz7lZ0an7QoW0TWPDuB@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 May 2010 20:35, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2010 1:06 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
>> According to catholic dogma, Jesus actually died, remain dead for
>> three days
>
> Well, in actual duration one full day plus maybe a half day.

Right. The tradition speaks of three days meaning  not 24hx3, but that
the duration of the death extended in three different days (some time
in day 1, a full day 2 and some time in day 3).

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun May 23 15:54:39 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 08:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

The petition states:

"the synaptic connectivity between neurons can be preserved essentially perfectly by today?s chemical fixation and plastic embedding techniques"

Does anyonw know if this is true?  And has it been demonstrated in a brain as large as ours?

Ben Zaiboc


      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun May 23 16:11:53 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 11:11:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain
 Preservation"	petition signature
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTillz6poleTeQFjC6JRwgCEH31vlhQSF2S99EiEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100522161426.243527C146@www.ipetitions.com>	<AANLkTinN4xPVC8aW8eSyKtv8QHWaEL0hpJhYr6J7s1Gc@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF8446F.9020803@canonizer.com>
	<AANLkTillz6poleTeQFjC6JRwgCEH31vlhQSF2S99EiEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF953C9.60203@satx.rr.com>

On 5/23/2010 5:38 AM, Brent wrote:

> And this is not to mention the various diverse beliefs about
> what are the best methods (chemical, cryogenic, whole body...) for
> preservation... for which this statement is obviously needlessly
> biased towards one.

This was the aspect that struck me most: the extreme and rather bizarre 
specificity of demanding the right to use "today?s chemical fixation and 
plastic embedding techniques" and "We believe it is the medical 
community?s responsibility to develop an absolutely reliable and 
repeatable Emergency Glutaraldehyde Perfusion (EGP) procedure that 
ensures rapid and complete perfusion throughout a patient?s brain."

Damien Broderick


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun May 23 16:02:07 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> If it turns out that there *is* something like a "soul" that
> flits from body to body and that comprises the core of continuing
> identity, I'd probably change my opinion. 

Well, that's exactly what a mind is.

Not that we can do the 'flitting' part yet, but give it time.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun May 23 16:16:26 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 11:16:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim0qjwexgBfUB3EKNpImxFMmfKVmqiQ0aV9FKpq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTim0qjwexgBfUB3EKNpImxFMmfKVmqiQ0aV9FKpq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF954DA.50402@satx.rr.com>

On 5/23/2010 8:41 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> I don't want to start one of those discussions that everyone here
> hates but I'm trying to understand what would and would not qualify as
> maintaining continuity and not destroying the original. For example,
> if every atom in your body were shifted 1 metre to your left would
> that be OK?

Stathis, you are starting one of those discussions that everyone here
hates. Sorry, I'm not playing.

Damien Broderick


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun May 23 17:41:20 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 19:41:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin8Ats0RhSakPwx7Wiri7YCOLor_3Xn-Y26dng9@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 May 2010 20:26, Damien Broderick
> In brief, yes.

I can't really say that I have an emotional understanding of this
position, but I think that it may still be a plausible metaphoric
comprehension of brand-new scenarios under our evolved instincts...

>> And even in such case, would you really consider teleport as "death"?
>
> Only if it destroys the original. Otherwise it's a kind of high-fidelity
> copying or cloning.

Yes, I would call it a "human telefax" more than a "human teleport".

OTOH, as to ordinary teleportation, I posit that
a) philosophically there is no real way to decide whether to describe
it as "moving yourself from point A to point B" or "killing yourself
in point A and have a perfect copy created at point B"; and that
b) sociologically, if ever it were available tomorrow, it would take
over public transportation by storm, those who out of an
interpretation of its working under the second POV and go on suffering
the nightmare of air transportation would be even fewer than those who
still travel exclusively by train and sea, and the chances of survival
of the meme "teleport=death" would be fairly limited.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From scerir at libero.it  Sun May 23 18:50:23 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 20:50:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
Message-ID: <10116985.1083811274640623220.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Stefano:
OTOH, as to ordinary teleportation, I posit that
a) philosophically there is no real way to decide whether to describe
it as "moving yourself from point A to point B" or "killing yourself
in point A and have a perfect copy created at point B"; [...]

------

There is a good and readable paper about "What is actually teleported?"
by Asher Peres here: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0304158 .

In general it is possible to say that the (quantum) state is "teleported"
and not the stuff itself (matter, energy, etc.). As Asher says: "Not the
body, only the soul." The reason for that is the linearity of the theory
called quantum mechanics, and the related impossibility of
'cloning' (copying) a quantum state (which, in turn, obviously protects
the uncertainty principle.)

Notice that, according to the many-worlds theory (or interpretation)
it is even possible there is no 'teleportation' of quantum states,
i.e. from Alice to Bob space-like separated, because the state
to be 'teleported' is already there since when Alice performs
her measurement and creates the famous 'more or less instantaneous 
splitting'. This, in turn, is interesting because the theory called special
relativity forbids a faster-than-light travel of stuff, or information.

In other words, according to the orthodox view, no stuff is 'teleported',
only a quantum state. According to the many-worlds theory it is 
possible to say that nothing is 'teleported'. Only a split occurs.
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9810089







From scerir at libero.it  Sun May 23 19:01:11 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 21:01:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
Message-ID: <896740.1084121274641271089.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Stathis:
> if every atom in your body were shifted 1 metre to your left would
> that be OK?

It depends, imagine that 1 metre to your left there is a cliff ...



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun May 23 19:19:34 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 14:19:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <896740.1084121274641271089.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <896740.1084121274641271089.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <4BF97FC6.8080306@satx.rr.com>

On 5/23/2010 2:01 PM, scerir wrote:
> Stathis:
>> >  if every atom in your body were shifted 1 metre to your left would
>> >  that be OK?

> It depends, imagine that 1 metre to your left there is a cliff ...

Or driving a car, visiting the lions in the zoo, etc etc.

If you were in a public place, it could be a bit embarrassing.

(This is all assuming a mysterious instantaneous shift; usually I have 
no trouble shifting all my atoms a meter to the left, and my clothes 
with them.)

Damien Broderick


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun May 23 21:31:21 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 16:31:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in The
	Economist
In-Reply-To: <EC1F32CB-62C2-4B12-AADD-6306F787D4F9@trioptimum.com>
References: <AANLkTinU2aNmcStgYYOkXpSKYbokp9DObHYQKD1BlXeW@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC1F32CB-62C2-4B12-AADD-6306F787D4F9@trioptimum.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinvrdzufaaswwQXnMHk-th9wWPieQKh1NZBdrg4@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tristan Eversole <customerservice at trioptimum.com>
Date: Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in The Economist
To: diybio at googlegroups.com



On May 22, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Bryan Bishop wrote:

> Thoughtful observers of synthetic biology favour a different approach:
> openness. This avoids shutting out the good in a belated attempt to
> prevent the bad. Knowledge cannot be unlearned, so the best way to
> oppose the villains is to have lots of heroes on your side. Then, when
> a problem arises, an answer can be found quickly. If pathogens can be
> designed by laptop, vaccines can be, too. And, just as ?open source?
> software lets white-hat computer nerds work against the black-hats, so
> open-source biology would encourage white-hat geneticists.

I worry that perhaps biological weapons will turn out to be a lot like
ICBMs? much easier to develop than to counter. This belief stems in
part from the fact that the biggest gains in biodefense stem from
quick, very highly reliable detection and a rapid and robust medical
response(*). A synthetic biological weapon could exploit a novel
vector we don't anticipate, or use a novel means of attack that we
have no effective counter to. Likewise, if the technology to develop
these weapons becomes widespread, it will mostly be used for peaceful
purposes, and the intelligence issue of picking up on
biological-weapons-in-development will become very difficult and,
worse, prone to false positives. (I should temper these statements
with the note that I know quite little about biodefense; my major
model for thinking about it comes from the PNAS paper about a
bioterror attack using botulinum in the milk supply. The worst case
for that scenario, no detection, leaves 568,000 casualties with 10g
botulinum. Quick detection reduces this number in a very dramatic
fashion, which, I suspect, is why that paper wasn't classified.) I
have to conclude that Bill Joy's assessment of the malicious
possibilities of self-replicating weapons is at least plausible.

The major hope I have is that the techniques of synthetic biology
particularly will result in pathogens that are significantly easier to
understand and counter than natural organisms, owing to their reliance
on standardized parts.

My argument against the proactionary principle would be grounded in
the observation that we are headed towards a world in which we are
good at genetics and horrendously lousy at ecology; in other words, a
world in which we are great at creating organisms and awful at
figuring out how they will interact. Evidence supporting this position
is abundant, in the sense that we have already seen substantial harm
caused by humans mucking with natural organisms: one can easily recall
several high-profile ecological mysteries, such as colony collapse
disorder, the white-nose syndrome (caused by a fungus) that has
attacked bats, and the ongoing destruction of amphibian populations.
One might also point to the essentially global havoc that has been
caused by invasive species generally? and this is no joke, either;
invasives have caused many billions of dollars' worth of damage. In
the US, examples would include gypsy moths, zebra mussels, the
critters attacking the Dungeness crabs in the Pacific Northwest, and
the Asian tiger mosquito. (This last case is illustrative. The Asian
tiger mosquito probably reached the US in shipments of used tires, and
it brought the West Nile virus with it. If you had told the people
shipping tires that their activity would ultimately kill people in the
US, they would probably have laughed at you.) Invasive species studies
have proved so fundamentally bad at predicting which species will
become successful invaders that the field has been called a
pseudoscience. To summarize, if we can't reliably control natural
species, what makes us believe we can control synthetic ones? It's not
a problem in the near term, but if the field is as revolutionary and
awesome as its proponents suggest, we're going to confront this
question sooner or later.

(This is why I roll my eyes at Freeman Dyson's utopian visions for
synthetic biology.)

Reference for the milk paper (I bet everyone on the list has read it
already, but I might as well include it anyway, just in case):

Wein and Liu. Analyzing a bioterror attack on the food supply: the
case of botulinum toxin in milk. Proceedings of the National Academy
of Sciences of the United States of America (2005) vol. 102 (28) pp.
9984-9

*It's hard to resist making a snarky remark about the US medical system here.

--
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-- 
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun May 23 21:34:35 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 16:34:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in The
	Economist
In-Reply-To: <EC1F32CB-62C2-4B12-AADD-6306F787D4F9@trioptimum.com>
References: <AANLkTinU2aNmcStgYYOkXpSKYbokp9DObHYQKD1BlXeW@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC1F32CB-62C2-4B12-AADD-6306F787D4F9@trioptimum.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimv3DxnxwAqiJaLwfs2zkfrLEHZMDOTBObvS9Iv@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Tristan Eversole wrote:
> My argument against the proactionary principle would be grounded in the
> observation that we are headed towards a world in which we are good
> at genetics and horrendously lousy at ecology; in other words,
> a world in which we are great at creating organisms and awful
> at figuring out how they will interact.

But here's the crux of the problem: you can attempt to clamp down,
regulate regulate regulate, and pray that the laws will pop out of
their pages in the books and slash down anyone (or anything- even
natural) that goes against our wishes; or, we can work on ways to help
us ensure that we're just as good at ecology, reliability, systems
engineering, and making sure the human species does not
catastrophically vanish in the night.

However, such issues are broader and more comprehensive than just
looking at synthetic biology, and need to be addressed in that same
sort of broader context, but I haven't been able to find such avenues
yet. Any hints? Anyone?

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun May 23 21:58:33 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 14:58:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>

Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> The petition states:
>
> "the synaptic connectivity between neurons can be preserved essentially perfectly by today?s chemical fixation and plastic embedding techniques"
>
> Does anyonw know if this is true?  And has it been demonstrated in a brain as large as ours?
>   

Could someone point me to information comparing its efficacy to 
cryogenic preservation? I thing cryogenic preservation should be part of 
the same petition. Pulling out only one method for achieving the ends 
desired and petitioning for it seems questionable.

- samantha



From scerir at libero.it  Sun May 23 21:58:32 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 23:58:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] [Exi] Martin Gardner
Message-ID: <22877085.505111274651912072.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Martin Gardner, 95, math and science writer, dies.
He was 95.



From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun May 23 23:11:03 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 18:11:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>
References: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinqHMHGZRPOKk4OHAahD2Bgs2gCQxfJoIk99dbY@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> Could someone point me to information comparing its efficacy to cryogenic
> preservation? I thing cryogenic preservation should be part of the same
> petition. Pulling out only one method for achieving the ends desired and
> petitioning for it seems questionable.

In reality, this is a ponzie scheme by the formaldehyde consortium to
undermine the market rates for their product. Okay, just kidding- I
really have no idea why there's a fixation on.. er, this particular
glycolation fixation.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon May 24 00:56:25 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 19:56:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Martine Rothblatt in Forbes
Message-ID: <00136DA0627C4A6B8F31D822BCAD4CC6@DFC68LF1>

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0510/second-acts-pharmaceuticals-orphan-dr
ugs-pah-deep-breaths.html
 
This is one hell of a person!
 
 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More
 
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon May 24 01:01:54 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 20:01:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in The
	Economist
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimv3DxnxwAqiJaLwfs2zkfrLEHZMDOTBObvS9Iv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinU2aNmcStgYYOkXpSKYbokp9DObHYQKD1BlXeW@mail.gmail.com><EC1F32CB-62C2-4B12-AADD-6306F787D4F9@trioptimum.com>
	<AANLkTimv3DxnxwAqiJaLwfs2zkfrLEHZMDOTBObvS9Iv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E5F5A55ADDC418E8E8B8A66A154303A@DFC68LF1>

Thanks Bryan. 


Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Bishop
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:35 PM
To: diybio at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list; kanzure at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in
TheEconomist

On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Tristan Eversole wrote:
> My argument against the proactionary principle would be grounded in 
> the observation that we are headed towards a world in which we are 
> good at genetics and horrendously lousy at ecology; in other words, a 
> world in which we are great at creating organisms and awful at 
> figuring out how they will interact.

But here's the crux of the problem: you can attempt to clamp down, regulate
regulate regulate, and pray that the laws will pop out of their pages in the
books and slash down anyone (or anything- even
natural) that goes against our wishes; or, we can work on ways to help us
ensure that we're just as good at ecology, reliability, systems engineering,
and making sure the human species does not catastrophically vanish in the
night.

However, such issues are broader and more comprehensive than just looking at
synthetic biology, and need to be addressed in that same sort of broader
context, but I haven't been able to find such avenues yet. Any hints?
Anyone?

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 24 06:48:16 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 07:48:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqHMHGZRPOKk4OHAahD2Bgs2gCQxfJoIk99dbY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinqHMHGZRPOKk4OHAahD2Bgs2gCQxfJoIk99dbY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTile3q4YVkxD83h_rfXI50KEfW2KbYHP7zEyE3Ot@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/24/10, Bryan Bishop wrote:
> In reality, this is a ponzie scheme by the formaldehyde consortium to
>  undermine the market rates for their product. Okay, just kidding- I
>  really have no idea why there's a fixation on.. er, this particular
>  glycolation fixation.
>
>

The obvious reason is that this field is what the originators of the
petition are experts on.

It comes from the Brain Preservation Foundation. This org has a very
small web presence. It was set up by Ken Hayworth, John Smart, and
several others.

Ken Hayworth's research is described here:
<http://singularityhub.com/2010/03/29/brain-preservation-technology-prize-a-modest-proposal-for-immortality-video/>

Among other reasons chemical preservation is much cheaper than cryonics.


BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon May 24 07:00:58 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 09:00:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTile3q4YVkxD83h_rfXI50KEfW2KbYHP7zEyE3Ot@mail.gmail.com>
References: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinqHMHGZRPOKk4OHAahD2Bgs2gCQxfJoIk99dbY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTile3q4YVkxD83h_rfXI50KEfW2KbYHP7zEyE3Ot@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik5A51nHIrYu5MwNqsie6oEI9Df5hLQKuQn-pnx@mail.gmail.com>

If chemical brain preservation is the best available means to preserve
brain structure for future uploading, then I am interested. I don't
think we will be confined to meat bodies forever, and so I find this
approach more interesting than cryonics. Preserve the brain chemically
now, wait a few decades or a couple of centuries for the development
of uploading tech, and leave the meatspace forever.

IF this works better than cryonics for this specific purpose of
uploading this IF is (to be determined), and since I am more
interested in uploading than in life in the meatspace, I would sign up
for chemical preservation of the brain now. This may be easier than
cryonics in both technical and regulatory terms.

G.

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 8:48 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/24/10, Bryan Bishop wrote:
>> In reality, this is a ponzie scheme by the formaldehyde consortium to
>> ?undermine the market rates for their product. Okay, just kidding- I
>> ?really have no idea why there's a fixation on.. er, this particular
>> ?glycolation fixation.
>>
>>
>
> The obvious reason is that this field is what the originators of the
> petition are experts on.
>
> It comes from the Brain Preservation Foundation. This org has a very
> small web presence. It was set up by Ken Hayworth, John Smart, and
> several others.
>
> Ken Hayworth's research is described here:
> <http://singularityhub.com/2010/03/29/brain-preservation-technology-prize-a-modest-proposal-for-immortality-video/>
>
> Among other reasons chemical preservation is much cheaper than cryonics.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From giulio at gmail.com  Mon May 24 07:03:54 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 09:03:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in The
	Economist
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimv3DxnxwAqiJaLwfs2zkfrLEHZMDOTBObvS9Iv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinU2aNmcStgYYOkXpSKYbokp9DObHYQKD1BlXeW@mail.gmail.com>
	<EC1F32CB-62C2-4B12-AADD-6306F787D4F9@trioptimum.com>
	<AANLkTimv3DxnxwAqiJaLwfs2zkfrLEHZMDOTBObvS9Iv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinbJAKLU1iwGmgwx-hUCTLNDeqc7ACO-k7SkblT@mail.gmail.com>

Also - if WE don't develop this technology at full speed, THEY (the
bad guys) will. History shows that bans on technology development only
result in pushing technology development abroad, or underground.

On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Tristan Eversole wrote:
>> My argument against the proactionary principle would be grounded in the
>> observation that we are headed towards a world in which we are good
>> at genetics and horrendously lousy at ecology; in other words,
>> a world in which we are great at creating organisms and awful
>> at figuring out how they will interact.
>
> But here's the crux of the problem: you can attempt to clamp down,
> regulate regulate regulate, and pray that the laws will pop out of
> their pages in the books and slash down anyone (or anything- even
> natural) that goes against our wishes; or, we can work on ways to help
> us ensure that we're just as good at ecology, reliability, systems
> engineering, and making sure the human species does not
> catastrophically vanish in the night.
>
> However, such issues are broader and more comprehensive than just
> looking at synthetic biology, and need to be addressed in that same
> sort of broader context, but I haven't been able to find such avenues
> yet. Any hints? Anyone?
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon May 24 08:01:48 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 18:01:48 +1000
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org> 
	<707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2010 02:02, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> If it turns out that there *is* something like a "soul" that
>> flits from body to body and that comprises the core of continuing
>> identity, I'd probably change my opinion.
>
> Well, that's exactly what a mind is.
>
> Not that we can do the 'flitting' part yet, but give it time.

Your body (including your brain) is made up of different matter
compared to a few months ago, but you still feel you are the same
person. The soul has magically flitted from one body to another.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon May 24 10:53:26 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:53:26 +1000
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <10116985.1083811274640623220.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <10116985.1083811274640623220.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJHYotY29fg96NRH1_KakARwdu4bjvRjARexEd@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2010 04:50, scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:
> Stefano:
> OTOH, as to ordinary teleportation, I posit that
> a) philosophically there is no real way to decide whether to describe
> it as "moving yourself from point A to point B" or "killing yourself
> in point A and have a perfect copy created at point B"; [...]
>
> ------
>
> There is a good and readable paper about "What is actually teleported?"
> by Asher Peres here: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0304158 .
>
> In general it is possible to say that the (quantum) state is "teleported"
> and not the stuff itself (matter, energy, etc.). As Asher says: "Not the
> body, only the soul." The reason for that is the linearity of the theory
> called quantum mechanics, and the related impossibility of
> 'cloning' (copying) a quantum state (which, in turn, obviously protects
> the uncertainty principle.)
>
> Notice that, according to the many-worlds theory (or interpretation)
> it is even possible there is no 'teleportation' of quantum states,
> i.e. from Alice to Bob space-like separated, because the state
> to be 'teleported' is already there since when Alice performs
> her measurement and creates the famous 'more or less instantaneous
> splitting'. This, in turn, is interesting because the theory called special
> relativity forbids a faster-than-light travel of stuff, or information.
>
> In other words, according to the orthodox view, no stuff is 'teleported',
> only a quantum state. According to the many-worlds theory it is
> possible to say that nothing is 'teleported'. Only a split occurs.
> http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9810089

There are two types of teleportation: quantum teleportation and
classical teleportation. Quantum teleportation is overkill. When you
go for a walk there are gross physical changes in your brain, but you
still feel you are the same person. So the fidelity of a teleportation
device need only be as good as that of walking. A high resolution scan
and reconstruction by an advanced 3D printer would do for classical
teleportation.

Interestingly, quantum teleportation necessarily destroys the
original, making it more like walking than classical teleportation.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon May 24 10:58:26 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 12:58:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimU0uJaD8_XnqgHu2HTbd8BfkLHzWJOzoQ-w7S8@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2010 10:01, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Your body (including your brain) is made up of different matter
> compared to a few months ago, but you still feel you are the same
> person. The soul has magically flitted from one body to another.

To play the devil's advocate, everybody would feel he or she is the
"same person" absolutely in any circumstance.

"Feeling that you are a different person by now", or telling somebody
"you are not the same man I married" is a different kind of metaphor,
which would not even be applicable if some doubts really existed as to
the (conventional) identity of the individual involved.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon May 24 11:04:41 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:04:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik5A51nHIrYu5MwNqsie6oEI9Df5hLQKuQn-pnx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinqHMHGZRPOKk4OHAahD2Bgs2gCQxfJoIk99dbY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTile3q4YVkxD83h_rfXI50KEfW2KbYHP7zEyE3Ot@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik5A51nHIrYu5MwNqsie6oEI9Df5hLQKuQn-pnx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimjG0vzOPfCFTaJ27Rbq496UlTjre0DJJTN2AZY@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2010 09:00, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> If chemical brain preservation is the best available means to preserve
> brain structure for future uploading, then I am interested.

Personally, I think I would be interested anyway.

There may be plenty of good reason to preserve a given brain, or a few
brains, for future use or study, and I do not see why this should not
happen whenever somebody intends to do so.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From algaenymph at gmail.com  Mon May 24 11:14:17 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 04:14:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Synthetic biology and the proactionary principle in The
 Economist
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinbJAKLU1iwGmgwx-hUCTLNDeqc7ACO-k7SkblT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinU2aNmcStgYYOkXpSKYbokp9DObHYQKD1BlXeW@mail.gmail.com>	<EC1F32CB-62C2-4B12-AADD-6306F787D4F9@trioptimum.com>	<AANLkTimv3DxnxwAqiJaLwfs2zkfrLEHZMDOTBObvS9Iv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinbJAKLU1iwGmgwx-hUCTLNDeqc7ACO-k7SkblT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFA5F89.4050203@gmail.com>

Giulio Prisco wrote:
> Also - if WE don't develop this technology at full speed, THEY (the
> bad guys) will.
For those of us who aren't scientists, what can we do to accelerate this 
development?  What can we do to prevent its *de*cceleration?
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon May 24 11:18:44 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:18:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinJHYotY29fg96NRH1_KakARwdu4bjvRjARexEd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10116985.1083811274640623220.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<AANLkTinJHYotY29fg96NRH1_KakARwdu4bjvRjARexEd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin_tT6NCY0ZVetaobDzsqS1eRwrC4byvK7_eds6@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2010 12:53, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Interestingly, quantum teleportation necessarily destroys the
> original, making it more like walking than classical teleportation.

Indeed. The bottom line, however, is that *any* teleport procedure
which produces apparently unaffected travellers at the other end
(apparentlty for those who can only judge, that is third parties) is
going to be considered, well, a teleport.

But you might find the morning you have to leave to Japan somebody on
your lawn, with a leaflet saying "Wait! If you go through that, your
phisical body will be destroyed, you will be dead, and somebody else
will take your place in the world".

This certainly would give you pause. Then, when the alternative is to
make your partner who is waiting you at the teleport station angry, to
go through a 20-hours flight in the airport system, and look like a
weirdo to most of your (apparently unaffected) friends, I suspect that
you will end up saying, "what the hell".

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon May 24 13:14:24 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 09:14:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Exi] Martin Gardner
In-Reply-To: <22877085.505111274651912072.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <22877085.505111274651912072.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <8C1B86E3-18AE-4C11-8F6F-A6F4F89094F4@bellsouth.net>

On May 23, 2010, at 5:58 PM, scerir wrote:

> Martin Gardner, 95, math and science writer, dies.
> He was 95.

Martin Gardner was one of my all-time favorite authors. In the New York Times Douglas Hofstadter, another of my all-time favorite authors, praises him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/us/24gardner.html

  John K Clark



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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon May 24 19:26:36 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:26:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] how science publication works
Message-ID: <4BFAD2EC.6020703@satx.rr.com>

<http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/upload/2009/08/how_to_publish_a_scientific_co/How%20to%20Publish%20a%20Comment.pdf>

How to Publish a Scientific Comment
in 12 3 Easy Steps
Prof. Rick Trebino
Georgia Institute of Technology
School of Physics
Atlanta, GA 30332
rick.trebino at physics.gatech.edu

The essence of science is reasoned debate. So, if you disagree with
something reported in a scientific paper, you can write a ?Comment?
on it.
Yet you don?t see many Comments.
Some believe that this is because journal editors are reluctant to
publish Comments because Comments reveal their mistakes?papers
they shouldn?t have allowed to be published in the first place. Indeed,
scientists often complain that it can be very difficult to publish one.
Fortunately, in this article, I?ll share with you my recent experience
publishing a Comment, so you can, too. There are just a few simple
steps:
1. Read a paper that has a mistake in it.
2. Write and submit a Comment, politely correcting the mistake.
3. Enjoy your Comment in print along with the authors? equally
polite Reply, basking in the joy of having participated in the
glorious scientific process and of the new friends you?ve made?
the authors whose research you?ve greatly assisted.
Ha ha! You didn?t really believe that, did you? Here?s the actual
sequence of events:
1. Read a paper in the most prestigious journal in your field that
?proves? that your entire life?s work is wrong.
2. Realize that the paper is completely wrong, its conclusions
based entirely on several misconceptions. It also claims that an
approach you showed to be fundamentally impossible is
preferable to one that you pioneered in its place and that
actually works. And among other errors, it also includes a
serious miscalculation?a number wrong by a factor of about
1000?a fact that?s obvious from a glance at the paper?s main
figure.
3. Decide to write a Comment to correct these mistakes?the
option conveniently provided by scientific journals precisely for
such situations.
4. Prepare for the writing of your Comment by searching the
journal for all previous Comments, finding about a dozen in the
last decade.
5. Note that almost all such Comments were two to three pages
long, like the other articles in the journal.
6. Prepare further by writing to the authors of the incorrect paper,
politely asking for important details they neglected to provide in
their paper.
7. Receive no response.
8. Persuade a graduate student to write to the authors of the
incorrect paper, politely asking for the important details they
neglected to provide in their paper.
9. Receive no response.
10. Persuade a colleague to write to the authors of the incorrect
paper, politely asking for the important details they neglected to
provide in their paper.
11. Receive no response.
12. Persuade your colleague to ask a friend to write to the authors
of the incorrect paper, politely asking for the important details
they neglected to provide in their paper.
13. Receive no response.
14. Ask the graduate student to estimate these parameters herself,
and observe that she does a very good job of it, reproducing
their plots very accurately and confirming that the authors were
wrong by a factor of about 1000 and that their conclusions were
also wrong.
15. Write a Comment, politely explaining the authors?
misconceptions and correcting their miscalculation, including
illustrative figures, important equations, and simple
explanations of perhaps how they got it wrong, so others won?t
make the same mistake in the future.
16. Submit your Comment.
17. Wait two weeks.
18. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 2.39 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
19. Take a look at the journal again, and note that the title, author
list, author addresses, submission date, database codes,
abstract, references, and other administrative text occupy about
half a page, leaving only half a page for actual commenting in
your Comment.
20. Remove all unnecessary quantities such as figures, equations,
and explanations. Also remove mention of some of the authors?
numerous errors, for which there is now no room in your
Comment; the archival literature would simply have to be
content with a few uncorrected falsehoods. Note that your
Comment is now 0.90 pages.
21. Resubmit your Comment.
22. Wait two weeks.
23. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 1.07 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
24. Write to the journal that, in view of the fact that your Comment
is only ever so slightly long, and that it takes quite a while to
resubmit it on the journal?s confusing and dysfunctional web site,
perhaps it could be sent out for review as is and shortened
slightly to 1.00 pages later.
25. Wait a week.
26. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 1.07 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
27. Shorten your Comment to 0.80 pages, removing such frivolous
linguistic luxuries as adjectives and adverbs.
28. Resubmit your Comment.
29. Wait three months, during which time, answer questions from
numerous competitors regarding the fraudulence of your life?s
work, why you perpetrated such a scam on the scientific
community, and how you got away with it for so long.
30. Read the latest issue of the journal, particularly enjoying an
especially detailed, figure-filled, equation-laden, and
explanation-rich three-page Comment.
31. Receive the reviews of your Comment.
32. Notice that Reviewer #3 likes your Comment, considers it
important that the incorrect paper?s errors be corrected and
recommends publication of your Comment as is.
33. Notice that Reviewer #2 hates your Comment for taking issue
with such a phenomenal paper, which finally debunked such
terrible work as yours, and insists that your Comment not be
published under any circumstances.
34. Notice that Reviewer #1 doesn?t like it either, but considers that
its short length may have prevented him from understanding it.
35. Also receive the topical editor?s response, pointing out that no
decision can be made at this time, but also kindly suggesting
that you consider expanding your Comment to three pages and
resubmitting it along with your responses to the reviews.
36. Expand your Comment back to three pages, replacing adjectives,
adverbs, figures, equations, explanations, and corrections of
author errors you had had to remove earlier to meet the 1.00-
page limit. And, in an attempt to enlighten Reviewers #1 and
#2, include a separate extended response to their reviews.
37. Resubmit your Comment.
38. Wait three months, during which time, receive condolences from
numerous colleagues regarding the fraudulence of your life?s
work and how sorry they are about it having been debunked.
39. Fail to enjoy your colleagues? stories of other deluded scientists
in history whose work was also eventually debunked, and try to
explain that, in fact, you feel that you don?t actually have that
much in common with alchemists, astrologers, creationists, and
flat-earthers.
40. Read the latest issue of the journal, which includes another
detailed three-page Comment, almost bursting with colorful and
superfluous adjectives and adverbs, some as many as twenty
letters long.
41. Receive the second set of reviews of your Comment.
42. Notice that Reviewer #3 continues to like your Comment and
continues to recommend its publication.
43. Notice that Reviewer #2 continues to hate it for taking issue
with such a phenomenal paper, which finally debunked such
terrible work as yours, and again insists that your worthless
Comment not be published.
44. Note further that Reviewer #2 now adds that your Comment
should under no circumstances be published until you obtain the
important details from the authors that you confessed in your
response to the reviewers you were not able to obtain and are
not ever going to.
45. Realize that Reviewer #2?s final criticism inevitably dooms your
Comment to oblivion until such time as the authors provide you
with the important details, your best estimate for which is never.
46. Notice, however, that Reviewer #1 now sees your point and
now strongly recommends publication of your Comment. He
also strongly recommends that your Comment remain three
pages long, so that other readers can actually understand what
it is that you?re saying.
47. And, in an absolutely stunning turn of events, note also that
Reviewer #1 writes further that he has also somehow secretly
obtained from the authors the important details they neglected
to provide in their paper and refused to send to you. Even
better, using them, he has actually checked the relevant
calculation. And he finds that the authors are wrong, and you
are correct.
48. Realize that it is now no longer necessary to respond to the
impossible criticism of Reviewer #2, as Reviewer #1 has kindly
done this for you.
49. Add a sentence to your Comment thanking Reviewer #1 for his
heroic efforts in obtaining the authors? important details and for
confirming your calculations.
50. Receive the editor?s decision that your Comment could perhaps
now be published. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
further until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
51. Point out to the editor that most Comments in his journal are
two to three pages long. Furthermore, it was the editor himself
who suggested lengthening it to three pages in the first place.
And Reviewer #1 strongly recommended leaving it that long.
52. Wait a month for a response, during which time, answer
questions from numerous friends regarding the fraudulence of
your life?s work and asking what new field you?re considering
and reminding you of how lucky you are to still have your job.
53. Turn down a friend?s job offer in his brother-in-law?s septic-tank
pumping company.
54. Obtain the latest issue of the journal and enjoy reading yet
another nice lengthy Comment, this one swimming in such
extravagant grammatical constructions as dependent clauses.
55. Receive the editor?s response, apologizing that, unfortunately,
Comments can be no more than 1.00 pages long, so your
Comment cannot be considered further until it is shortened to
less than 1.00 pages long.
56. Download pdf files of all Comments published in the journal in
the past decade, most of which were three pages long. Send
them to the editor, his boss, and his boss?s boss.
57. Receive the editor?s response, apologizing that, unfortunately,
Comments can be no more than 1.00 pages long, so your
Comment cannot be considered further until it is shortened to
less than 1.00 pages long.
58. Shorten your Comment to 0.80 pages, again removing
gratuitous length-increasing luxuries such as figures, equations,
explanations, adjectives, and adverbs. Also again remove your
corrections of some of the authors? errors.
59. Also, replace extravagant words containing wastefully wide
letters, such as ?m? and ?w?, with efficient, space-saving words
containing efficient, lean letters, like ?i?, ?j?, ?t?, and ?l?. So
what if ?global warming? has become ?global tilting.?
60. Resubmit your Comment.
61. Wait two weeks.
62. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 1.09 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
further until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
63. Shorten your Comment by removing such extraneous text as
logical arguments.
64. Also, consider kicking off your coauthor from a different
institution, whose additional address absorbs an entire line of
valuable Comment space. Wonder why you asked him to help
out in the first place.
65. Also, consider performing the necessary legal paperwork to
shorten your last name, which could, as is, extend the author
list to an excessive two lines.
66. Vow that, in the future, you will collaborate only with scientists
with short names (Russians are definitely out).
67. Thank your Chinese grad-student coauthor for having a last
name only two letters long. Make a mental note to include this
important fact in recommendations you will someday write to
her potential employers.
68. Resubmit your Comment.
69. Wait two weeks.
70. Receive a response from the senior editor that you cannot thank
Reviewer #1 for obtaining the missing details and confirming
your results, as this would give the appearance that the journal
was biased in your favor in the Comment review process.
71. Assure the senior editor that, if anyone even considered asking
about this, you would immediately and emphatically confirm
under oath, on a stack of Newton?s Principia Mathematica?s, and
under penalty of torture and death that, in this matter, the
journal was most definitely not biased in your favor in any way,
shape, or form in the current geological epoch or any other and
in this universe or any other, whether real or imagined.
72. Receive a response from the senior editor that you cannot thank
Reviewer #1 for obtaining the missing details and confirming
your results, as this would give the appearance that the journal
was biased in your favor in the Comment review process.
73. Remove mention of Reviewer #1?s having obtained the
necessary details from the acknowledgment, realizing that it?s
probably for the best in the end. If word were to get out that,
in order to do so, he had managed to infiltrate the allegedly
impenetrable ultrahigh-level security of the top-secret United
States government nuclear-weapons lab, where it happens that
the authors worked, he would likely be prosecuted by the
George W. Bush administration for treason. And if he?s
anything like the other scientists you know, he probably
wouldn?t last long in Gitmo.
74. Resubmit your Comment.
75. Wait two weeks.
76. Receive a response from the journal stating that, in your
submitted MS Word file, the references are not double-spaced.
Your Comment cannot be considered for publication until the
references in this document are double-spaced.
77. Add lines between the several references, a process that
requires a total of twelve seconds.
78. Resubmit your Comment, a process that, due to dysfunctional
journal web-site problems, requires a total of three hours.
79. Wait two weeks.
80. Receive a response from the senior editor that, while your
Comment is now short enough and properly formatted, over the
many modifications and shortenings that have occurred, its tone
has become somewhat harsh. For example, a sentence that
originally read, ?The authors appear to have perhaps
accidentally utilized an array size that was somewhat
disproportionate for the corresponding and relevant waveform
complexity,? has evolved into: ?The authors are wrong.?
81. Have numerous telephone conversations with the senior editor,
in which you overwhelm him with the numerous other issues
you have had to deal with during the Comment evaluation
process until he forgets about your Comment?s tone. Indeed,
compared to your verbal tone during these telephone calls, the
paper?s tone seems downright friendly.
82. Celebrate this minor victory by deciding not to include in the
final draft of the Comment?s Acknowledgments section a
description of certain individuals you?ve encountered during this
process?a description that would have involved such colorful
terms as ?bonehead? and ?cheese-weenie.?
83. Wonder whether your Comment has finally been sent to the
authors for their Reply, or instead was lost, trashed, or sent
back to the reviewers for further review and possible rejection.
84. Wait four months, during which time, respond to numerous
close relatives regarding the fraudulence of your life?s work and
who remind you that at least you still have your health, albeit in
a noticeably deteriorating state over the past few months. And
perhaps you?d like to join them at the local bar for its daily
Happy Hour.
85. Take them up on their offer, but learn that they expect you to
pay for drinks, which, regrettably, you can?t because sales at
the small company you formed to sell devices based on your
work have fallen to essentially zero.
86. Learn from one of your grad students that a potential employer
asked her, ?Hasn?t your work recently been discredited??
87. Learn that she was not granted an interview.
88. Attend a conference, where a colleague informs you that he is
Reviewer #1. Attempt to hug him, but be advised that a simple
?thank you? for merely doing his job is sufficient.
89. Learn from Reviewer #1 that he has not received the authors?
Reply for review, or any other correspondence from the journal
in the several months since he submitted his review.
90. Realize that you had stopped carefully reading the journal, and,
as a result, had missed the ?Erratum? published by the authors
on the paper in question six months earlier, shortly after you
submitted your short-lived three-page version of the Comment.
91. Note that, in this ?Erratum,? the authors actually admitted no
errors and instead reported new?similarly incorrect?numbers,
which they concluded ?do not change any conclusions? in their
original paper.
92. Feel old, as you can remember the days when Errata involved
correcting old errors and not introducing new ones.
93. Note also that, in their ?Erratum,? the authors have actually
responded to some highly specific criticisms of their errors you
mentioned in the three-page version of your Comment?
criticisms that you had removed when shortening it to meet the
journal?s strict 1.00-page limit. Criticisms the authors couldn?t
possibly have known about in view of the journal?s strict
confidentiality rules for submitted papers, unless this version of
your Comment was somehow leaked to them...
94. Realize that, with this ?Erratum,? the authors have effectively
already published their ?Reply? to your Comment.
95. Note also that, while your Comment has been kicking around for
close to a year, its publication date nowhere in sight, the
authors? ?Erratum? was published in a mere nineteen days.
96. With two mathematical mistakes by the authors to consider now
and plenty of time in which to consider them, realize that their
main mathematical error was simply to forget to take the
square root when computing the ?root-mean-square??a childish
mistake.
97. Note that this is consistent with the fact that, on both their
paper and ?Erratum,? one of the authors? names is misspelled.
This is consistent with the fact that, by now, you?ve already
spent approximately 100 times as much time correcting their
errors than they spent making them.
98. Realize that you must now modify your Comment to also include
a discussion of the ?Erratum.? Ask the editor if you can do this.
99. Receive a response from the editor that, after much discussion
among the journal editors, it has been decided that, yes, you
can do this.
100. Include a couple of short sentences debunking the ?Erratum? in
your Comment, using up two valuable lines of text and three
valuable lines in the reference list due to its rather long title.
101. Realize that your Comment is now several lines longer than the
do-or-die 1.00-page limit.
102. Shorten your Comment by omitting noncritical words like ?a,?
?an,? and ?the,? giving your Comment exotic foreign feel.
103. Also, take advantage of the fact that, in some literary circles,
sentence fragments are considered acceptable. Decide that,
indeed, verbs are highly over-rated.
104. Declare ?death to all commas??a worthless piece of
unnecessary punctuation if ever there was one.
105. Consider using txt msg shorthand 4 actual words 2 further
shorten ur Comment, but decide not 2 when u realize that the
hundreds of frowny-face emoticons u couldn?t resist adding
actually lengthened ur Comment 2 2 pages :(
106. Resubmit your Comment.
107. Realize that modifying your Comment to include the ?Erratum?
has now, unfortunately, opened it up for additional criticism
from the editors and possibly the reviewers.
108. Receive a phone call from the senior editor, who takes
advantage of this opportunity. He has suddenly remembered
that your Comment?s tone is a bit harsh. He is concerned that
the authors, who appear to be highly motivated and quite crafty,
will complain loudly and aggressively about the obviously
preferential treatment your Comment is clearly receiving from
the journal and make his life miserable. He objects to nearly
every sentence in your Comment, in each case, insisting on a
considerably longer sentence. He insists that you not say that
the authors are ?wrong? and suggests instead ?perhaps
mistaken.? He also insists on replacing the word ?so? with the
unforgivably long ?therefore.?
109. Realize that, if you accede to his demands, your Comment will
be an unacceptable 1.2 pages long, dooming your Comment to
oblivion.
110. Also learn from the senior editor that you cannot thank
Reviewer #1 even for simply ?confirming your calculations,? as
this would also reveal the obvious preferential treatment your
Comment has clearly received from the journal.
111. Explain that this is a common type of acknowledgment,
revealing no preferential treatment by the journal whatsoever,
and send him a copy of a recent paper from his journal in which
the authors thank a reviewer for actually proving several
theorems for them.
112. Learn from the senior editor that another reason that you
cannot thank Reviewer #1 is that there is no record of Reviewer
#1 actually having confirmed your calculations. Apparently, the
paper on which it was printed has, over the eons, turned to dust.
113. Send a copy of the email from the journal containing Reviewer
#1?s review to the senior editor.
114. Also, offer to put the senior editor in touch with Reviewer #1, in
case all records of Reviewer #1?s identity have also been lost.
115. Also, learn from the senior editor that he admits no expertise in
your field but that he will nevertheless not allow you to say in
your Comment that the approach that you proved twenty years
earlier is ?fundamentally impossible? is ?fundamentally
impossible.? Instead, you must say that it ?has not been shown
to be possible.?
116. Note that, if this could accurately be said about perpetualmotion
machines, it would rekindle interest in that long
forgotten field.
117. Receive no response.
118. Realize that this is probably good news.
119. Encounter a journal representative at a conference, who kindly
mentions that the one-page version of your Comment was, in
fact, sent to the authors for their Reply. And, after a series of
delays, they have submitted it. But, unfortunately, it is extremely
contentious and will be rejected unless toned down significantly.
It?s as if, for some reason, they want it to be rejected.
120. In preparation for the final phase of the Comment process, write
to the editor asking if you will be able to see the Reply to your
Comment and make minor modifications in view of it, as allowed
by most journals.
121. For once, obtain a quick response: ?No.?
122. Finally receive notice from the editor that the authors? official
Reply to your Comment has been reviewed and processed.
Unfortunately, it was not found suitable for publication and so
was rejected. And because, for maximum reader enjoyment, it
is the policy of this journal that a Comment cannot be published
without a Reply, your Comment cannot be published. This
decision is final.
123. Be advised that the journal thanks you for submitting your
Comment, and you should feel free to submit a paper on a
different subject in the future, as this journal features the most
rapid publication of any journal in this field.
Addendum: This ridiculous scenario actually occurred as written; I
didn?t make it up. I confess that, of course, I exaggerated the
responses from competitors, colleagues, friends, relatives, and myself,
but not those of the journal editors or the authors. Those events all
happened exactly as I?ve described them.
The fate described in the last two steps actually occurred to a
different Comment, which I submitted to a different journal a few
years earlier, and which, in fact, never was published, precisely for the
absurd reason given.
Over a year after submitting the Comment discussed in all the other
steps, realizing that it was clearly doomed to oblivion, I sent a copy of
this story to the senior editor?s boss. Shortly afterward, I received a
call from the senior editor, who had suddenly withdrawn all of his
objections. The Comment was fine as it was, and it would be
published!
However, I was still not allowed to see the authors? Reply until it
was actually in print. And when it appeared, it reiterated the same
erroneous claims and numbers (for the third time!) and then
introduced a few new erroneous claims, which, of course, I am not
allowed to respond to. So I?ve simply given up.
I?ve withheld the names of the various individuals in this story
because my purpose is not to make accusations (as much as I would
like to; they?re certainly deserved), but instead to effect some social
change. Nearly everyone I?ve encountered who has written a
Comment has found the system to be heavily biased against wellintentioned
correcting of errors?often serious ones?in the archival
literature. I find this quite disturbing.
And would it have killed these authors to email me their ?results?
prior to publishing them, so I could?ve enlightened them before they
committed themselves to their errors in print, thus avoiding all this
pain?
Finally, I should also mention that, to keep this story light and at
least somewhat entertaining, I actually simplified it somewhat,
omitting numerous additional steps involving journal web-site crashes,
undelivered emails, unreturned phone calls to dysfunctional pagers,
complaints to higher levels of journal management, and some rather
disturbing (and decidedly unfunny) behavior by the authors and
certain editors.
After all, I wouldn?t want to discourage you from submitting a
Comment.


From scerir at libero.it  Mon May 24 20:37:52 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 22:37:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] [Exi] Martin Gardner
Message-ID: <24336125.595891274733472736.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Martin Gardner was one of my all-time favorite authors. In the New York Times 
Douglas Hofstadter, 
another of my all-time favorite authors, praises him.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/us/24gardner.html
John K Clark

There is something here, a long interview
http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2008/09/the-martin-gardner-interview/


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon May 24 21:48:54 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:48:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin_tT6NCY0ZVetaobDzsqS1eRwrC4byvK7_eds6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10116985.1083811274640623220.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<AANLkTinJHYotY29fg96NRH1_KakARwdu4bjvRjARexEd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin_tT6NCY0ZVetaobDzsqS1eRwrC4byvK7_eds6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil9BJOZZgRgThDE4ClXWdqnM7uMg6VS9oTaYeyu@mail.gmail.com>

Stathis wrote:
Your body (including your brain) is made up of different matter
compared to a few months ago, but you still feel you are the same
person. The soul has magically flitted from one body to another.
>>>

I thought I felt somehow different and I now realize I'm actually an imposter!!

John  : o

On 5/24/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 May 2010 12:53, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Interestingly, quantum teleportation necessarily destroys the
>> original, making it more like walking than classical teleportation.
>
> Indeed. The bottom line, however, is that *any* teleport procedure
> which produces apparently unaffected travellers at the other end
> (apparentlty for those who can only judge, that is third parties) is
> going to be considered, well, a teleport.
>
> But you might find the morning you have to leave to Japan somebody on
> your lawn, with a leaflet saying "Wait! If you go through that, your
> phisical body will be destroyed, you will be dead, and somebody else
> will take your place in the world".
>
> This certainly would give you pause. Then, when the alternative is to
> make your partner who is waiting you at the teleport station angry, to
> go through a 20-hours flight in the airport system, and look like a
> weirdo to most of your (apparently unaffected) friends, I suspect that
> you will end up saying, "what the hell".
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon May 24 21:38:19 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] how science publication works
In-Reply-To: <4BFAD2EC.6020703@satx.rr.com>
References: <4BFAD2EC.6020703@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <628444.11982.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Regarding being off by orders of magnitude, has anyone here followed the recent discussion of the End Cretaceous mass extinction in _Science_? I'm speaking specifically of the SO2 numbers offered in one paper and corrected by another. I think they were off by one or two orders of magnitude.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 3:26:36 PM
Subject: [ExI] how science publication works

<http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/upload/2009/08/how_to_publish_a_scientific_co/How%20to%20Publish%20a%20Comment.pdf>

How to Publish a Scientific Comment
in 12 3 Easy Steps
Prof. Rick Trebino
Georgia Institute of Technology
School of Physics
Atlanta, GA 30332
rick.trebino at physics.gatech.edu

The essence of science is reasoned debate. So, if you disagree with
something reported in a scientific paper, you can write a ?Comment?
on it.
Yet you don?t see many Comments.
Some believe that this is because journal editors are reluctant to
publish Comments because Comments reveal their mistakes?papers
they shouldn?t have allowed to be published in the first place. Indeed,
scientists often complain that it can be very difficult to publish one.
Fortunately, in this article, I?ll share with you my recent experience
publishing a Comment, so you can, too. There are just a few simple
steps:
1. Read a paper that has a mistake in it.
2. Write and submit a Comment, politely correcting the mistake.
3. Enjoy your Comment in print along with the authors? equally
polite Reply, basking in the joy of having participated in the
glorious scientific process and of the new friends you?ve made?
the authors whose research you?ve greatly assisted.
Ha ha! You didn?t really believe that, did you? Here?s the actual
sequence of events:
1. Read a paper in the most prestigious journal in your field that
?proves? that your entire life?s work is wrong.
2. Realize that the paper is completely wrong, its conclusions
based entirely on several misconceptions. It also claims that an
approach you showed to be fundamentally impossible is
preferable to one that you pioneered in its place and that
actually works. And among other errors, it also includes a
serious miscalculation?a number wrong by a factor of about
1000?a fact that?s obvious from a glance at the paper?s main
figure.
3. Decide to write a Comment to correct these mistakes?the
option conveniently provided by scientific journals precisely for
such situations.
4. Prepare for the writing of your Comment by searching the
journal for all previous Comments, finding about a dozen in the
last decade.
5. Note that almost all such Comments were two to three pages
long, like the other articles in the journal.
6. Prepare further by writing to the authors of the incorrect paper,
politely asking for important details they neglected to provide in
their paper.
7. Receive no response.
8. Persuade a graduate student to write to the authors of the
incorrect paper, politely asking for the important details they
neglected to provide in their paper.
9. Receive no response.
10. Persuade a colleague to write to the authors of the incorrect
paper, politely asking for the important details they neglected to
provide in their paper.
11. Receive no response.
12. Persuade your colleague to ask a friend to write to the authors
of the incorrect paper, politely asking for the important details
they neglected to provide in their paper.
13. Receive no response.
14. Ask the graduate student to estimate these parameters herself,
and observe that she does a very good job of it, reproducing
their plots very accurately and confirming that the authors were
wrong by a factor of about 1000 and that their conclusions were
also wrong.
15. Write a Comment, politely explaining the authors?
misconceptions and correcting their miscalculation, including
illustrative figures, important equations, and simple
explanations of perhaps how they got it wrong, so others won?t
make the same mistake in the future.
16. Submit your Comment.
17. Wait two weeks.
18. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 2.39 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
19. Take a look at the journal again, and note that the title, author
list, author addresses, submission date, database codes,
abstract, references, and other administrative text occupy about
half a page, leaving only half a page for actual commenting in
your Comment.
20. Remove all unnecessary quantities such as figures, equations,
and explanations. Also remove mention of some of the authors?
numerous errors, for which there is now no room in your
Comment; the archival literature would simply have to be
content with a few uncorrected falsehoods. Note that your
Comment is now 0.90 pages.
21. Resubmit your Comment.
22. Wait two weeks.
23. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 1.07 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
24. Write to the journal that, in view of the fact that your Comment
is only ever so slightly long, and that it takes quite a while to
resubmit it on the journal?s confusing and dysfunctional web site,
perhaps it could be sent out for review as is and shortened
slightly to 1.00 pages later.
25. Wait a week.
26. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 1.07 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
27. Shorten your Comment to 0.80 pages, removing such frivolous
linguistic luxuries as adjectives and adverbs.
28. Resubmit your Comment.
29. Wait three months, during which time, answer questions from
numerous competitors regarding the fraudulence of your life?s
work, why you perpetrated such a scam on the scientific
community, and how you got away with it for so long.
30. Read the latest issue of the journal, particularly enjoying an
especially detailed, figure-filled, equation-laden, and
explanation-rich three-page Comment.
31. Receive the reviews of your Comment.
32. Notice that Reviewer #3 likes your Comment, considers it
important that the incorrect paper?s errors be corrected and
recommends publication of your Comment as is.
33. Notice that Reviewer #2 hates your Comment for taking issue
with such a phenomenal paper, which finally debunked such
terrible work as yours, and insists that your Comment not be
published under any circumstances.
34. Notice that Reviewer #1 doesn?t like it either, but considers that
its short length may have prevented him from understanding it.
35. Also receive the topical editor?s response, pointing out that no
decision can be made at this time, but also kindly suggesting
that you consider expanding your Comment to three pages and
resubmitting it along with your responses to the reviews.
36. Expand your Comment back to three pages, replacing adjectives,
adverbs, figures, equations, explanations, and corrections of
author errors you had had to remove earlier to meet the 1.00-
page limit. And, in an attempt to enlighten Reviewers #1 and
#2, include a separate extended response to their reviews.
37. Resubmit your Comment.
38. Wait three months, during which time, receive condolences from
numerous colleagues regarding the fraudulence of your life?s
work and how sorry they are about it having been debunked.
39. Fail to enjoy your colleagues? stories of other deluded scientists
in history whose work was also eventually debunked, and try to
explain that, in fact, you feel that you don?t actually have that
much in common with alchemists, astrologers, creationists, and
flat-earthers.
40. Read the latest issue of the journal, which includes another
detailed three-page Comment, almost bursting with colorful and
superfluous adjectives and adverbs, some as many as twenty
letters long.
41. Receive the second set of reviews of your Comment.
42. Notice that Reviewer #3 continues to like your Comment and
continues to recommend its publication.
43. Notice that Reviewer #2 continues to hate it for taking issue
with such a phenomenal paper, which finally debunked such
terrible work as yours, and again insists that your worthless
Comment not be published.
44. Note further that Reviewer #2 now adds that your Comment
should under no circumstances be published until you obtain the
important details from the authors that you confessed in your
response to the reviewers you were not able to obtain and are
not ever going to.
45. Realize that Reviewer #2?s final criticism inevitably dooms your
Comment to oblivion until such time as the authors provide you
with the important details, your best estimate for which is never.
46. Notice, however, that Reviewer #1 now sees your point and
now strongly recommends publication of your Comment. He
also strongly recommends that your Comment remain three
pages long, so that other readers can actually understand what
it is that you?re saying.
47. And, in an absolutely stunning turn of events, note also that
Reviewer #1 writes further that he has also somehow secretly
obtained from the authors the important details they neglected
to provide in their paper and refused to send to you. Even
better, using them, he has actually checked the relevant
calculation. And he finds that the authors are wrong, and you
are correct.
48. Realize that it is now no longer necessary to respond to the
impossible criticism of Reviewer #2, as Reviewer #1 has kindly
done this for you.
49. Add a sentence to your Comment thanking Reviewer #1 for his
heroic efforts in obtaining the authors? important details and for
confirming your calculations.
50. Receive the editor?s decision that your Comment could perhaps
now be published. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
further until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
51. Point out to the editor that most Comments in his journal are
two to three pages long. Furthermore, it was the editor himself
who suggested lengthening it to three pages in the first place.
And Reviewer #1 strongly recommended leaving it that long.
52. Wait a month for a response, during which time, answer
questions from numerous friends regarding the fraudulence of
your life?s work and asking what new field you?re considering
and reminding you of how lucky you are to still have your job.
53. Turn down a friend?s job offer in his brother-in-law?s septic-tank
pumping company.
54. Obtain the latest issue of the journal and enjoy reading yet
another nice lengthy Comment, this one swimming in such
extravagant grammatical constructions as dependent clauses.
55. Receive the editor?s response, apologizing that, unfortunately,
Comments can be no more than 1.00 pages long, so your
Comment cannot be considered further until it is shortened to
less than 1.00 pages long.
56. Download pdf files of all Comments published in the journal in
the past decade, most of which were three pages long. Send
them to the editor, his boss, and his boss?s boss.
57. Receive the editor?s response, apologizing that, unfortunately,
Comments can be no more than 1.00 pages long, so your
Comment cannot be considered further until it is shortened to
less than 1.00 pages long.
58. Shorten your Comment to 0.80 pages, again removing
gratuitous length-increasing luxuries such as figures, equations,
explanations, adjectives, and adverbs. Also again remove your
corrections of some of the authors? errors.
59. Also, replace extravagant words containing wastefully wide
letters, such as ?m? and ?w?, with efficient, space-saving words
containing efficient, lean letters, like ?i?, ?j?, ?t?, and ?l?. So
what if ?global warming? has become ?global tilting.?
60. Resubmit your Comment.
61. Wait two weeks.
62. Receive a response from the journal, stating that your Comment
is 1.09 pages long. Unfortunately, Comments can be no more
than 1.00 pages long, so your Comment cannot be considered
further until it is shortened to less than 1.00 pages long.
63. Shorten your Comment by removing such extraneous text as
logical arguments.
64. Also, consider kicking off your coauthor from a different
institution, whose additional address absorbs an entire line of
valuable Comment space. Wonder why you asked him to help
out in the first place.
65. Also, consider performing the necessary legal paperwork to
shorten your last name, which could, as is, extend the author
list to an excessive two lines.
66. Vow that, in the future, you will collaborate only with scientists
with short names (Russians are definitely out).
67. Thank your Chinese grad-student coauthor for having a last
name only two letters long. Make a mental note to include this
important fact in recommendations you will someday write to
her potential employers.
68. Resubmit your Comment.
69. Wait two weeks.
70. Receive a response from the senior editor that you cannot thank
Reviewer #1 for obtaining the missing details and confirming
your results, as this would give the appearance that the journal
was biased in your favor in the Comment review process.
71. Assure the senior editor that, if anyone even considered asking
about this, you would immediately and emphatically confirm
under oath, on a stack of Newton?s Principia Mathematica?s, and
under penalty of torture and death that, in this matter, the
journal was most definitely not biased in your favor in any way,
shape, or form in the current geological epoch or any other and
in this universe or any other, whether real or imagined.
72. Receive a response from the senior editor that you cannot thank
Reviewer #1 for obtaining the missing details and confirming
your results, as this would give the appearance that the journal
was biased in your favor in the Comment review process.
73. Remove mention of Reviewer #1?s having obtained the
necessary details from the acknowledgment, realizing that it?s
probably for the best in the end. If word were to get out that,
in order to do so, he had managed to infiltrate the allegedly
impenetrable ultrahigh-level security of the top-secret United
States government nuclear-weapons lab, where it happens that
the authors worked, he would likely be prosecuted by the
George W. Bush administration for treason. And if he?s
anything like the other scientists you know, he probably
wouldn?t last long in Gitmo.
74. Resubmit your Comment.
75. Wait two weeks.
76. Receive a response from the journal stating that, in your
submitted MS Word file, the references are not double-spaced.
Your Comment cannot be considered for publication until the
references in this document are double-spaced.
77. Add lines between the several references, a process that
requires a total of twelve seconds.
78. Resubmit your Comment, a process that, due to dysfunctional
journal web-site problems, requires a total of three hours.
79. Wait two weeks.
80. Receive a response from the senior editor that, while your
Comment is now short enough and properly formatted, over the
many modifications and shortenings that have occurred, its tone
has become somewhat harsh. For example, a sentence that
originally read, ?The authors appear to have perhaps
accidentally utilized an array size that was somewhat
disproportionate for the corresponding and relevant waveform
complexity,? has evolved into: ?The authors are wrong.?
81. Have numerous telephone conversations with the senior editor,
in which you overwhelm him with the numerous other issues
you have had to deal with during the Comment evaluation
process until he forgets about your Comment?s tone. Indeed,
compared to your verbal tone during these telephone calls, the
paper?s tone seems downright friendly.
82. Celebrate this minor victory by deciding not to include in the
final draft of the Comment?s Acknowledgments section a
description of certain individuals you?ve encountered during this
process?a description that would have involved such colorful
terms as ?bonehead? and ?cheese-weenie.?
83. Wonder whether your Comment has finally been sent to the
authors for their Reply, or instead was lost, trashed, or sent
back to the reviewers for further review and possible rejection.
84. Wait four months, during which time, respond to numerous
close relatives regarding the fraudulence of your life?s work and
who remind you that at least you still have your health, albeit in
a noticeably deteriorating state over the past few months. And
perhaps you?d like to join them at the local bar for its daily
Happy Hour.
85. Take them up on their offer, but learn that they expect you to
pay for drinks, which, regrettably, you can?t because sales at
the small company you formed to sell devices based on your
work have fallen to essentially zero.
86. Learn from one of your grad students that a potential employer
asked her, ?Hasn?t your work recently been discredited??
87. Learn that she was not granted an interview.
88. Attend a conference, where a colleague informs you that he is
Reviewer #1. Attempt to hug him, but be advised that a simple
?thank you? for merely doing his job is sufficient.
89. Learn from Reviewer #1 that he has not received the authors?
Reply for review, or any other correspondence from the journal
in the several months since he submitted his review.
90. Realize that you had stopped carefully reading the journal, and,
as a result, had missed the ?Erratum? published by the authors
on the paper in question six months earlier, shortly after you
submitted your short-lived three-page version of the Comment.
91. Note that, in this ?Erratum,? the authors actually admitted no
errors and instead reported new?similarly incorrect?numbers,
which they concluded ?do not change any conclusions? in their
original paper.
92. Feel old, as you can remember the days when Errata involved
correcting old errors and not introducing new ones.
93. Note also that, in their ?Erratum,? the authors have actually
responded to some highly specific criticisms of their errors you
mentioned in the three-page version of your Comment?
criticisms that you had removed when shortening it to meet the
journal?s strict 1.00-page limit. Criticisms the authors couldn?t
possibly have known about in view of the journal?s strict
confidentiality rules for submitted papers, unless this version of
your Comment was somehow leaked to them...
94. Realize that, with this ?Erratum,? the authors have effectively
already published their ?Reply? to your Comment.
95. Note also that, while your Comment has been kicking around for
close to a year, its publication date nowhere in sight, the
authors? ?Erratum? was published in a mere nineteen days.
96. With two mathematical mistakes by the authors to consider now
and plenty of time in which to consider them, realize that their
main mathematical error was simply to forget to take the
square root when computing the ?root-mean-square??a childish
mistake.
97. Note that this is consistent with the fact that, on both their
paper and ?Erratum,? one of the authors? names is misspelled.
This is consistent with the fact that, by now, you?ve already
spent approximately 100 times as much time correcting their
errors than they spent making them.
98. Realize that you must now modify your Comment to also include
a discussion of the ?Erratum.? Ask the editor if you can do this.
99. Receive a response from the editor that, after much discussion
among the journal editors, it has been decided that, yes, you
can do this.
100. Include a couple of short sentences debunking the ?Erratum? in
your Comment, using up two valuable lines of text and three
valuable lines in the reference list due to its rather long title.
101. Realize that your Comment is now several lines longer than the
do-or-die 1.00-page limit.
102. Shorten your Comment by omitting noncritical words like ?a,?
?an,? and ?the,? giving your Comment exotic foreign feel.
103. Also, take advantage of the fact that, in some literary circles,
sentence fragments are considered acceptable. Decide that,
indeed, verbs are highly over-rated.
104. Declare ?death to all commas??a worthless piece of
unnecessary punctuation if ever there was one.
105. Consider using txt msg shorthand 4 actual words 2 further
shorten ur Comment, but decide not 2 when u realize that the
hundreds of frowny-face emoticons u couldn?t resist adding
actually lengthened ur Comment 2 2 pages :(
106. Resubmit your Comment.
107. Realize that modifying your Comment to include the ?Erratum?
has now, unfortunately, opened it up for additional criticism
from the editors and possibly the reviewers.
108. Receive a phone call from the senior editor, who takes
advantage of this opportunity. He has suddenly remembered
that your Comment?s tone is a bit harsh. He is concerned that
the authors, who appear to be highly motivated and quite crafty,
will complain loudly and aggressively about the obviously
preferential treatment your Comment is clearly receiving from
the journal and make his life miserable. He objects to nearly
every sentence in your Comment, in each case, insisting on a
considerably longer sentence. He insists that you not say that
the authors are ?wrong? and suggests instead ?perhaps
mistaken.? He also insists on replacing the word ?so? with the
unforgivably long ?therefore.?
109. Realize that, if you accede to his demands, your Comment will
be an unacceptable 1.2 pages long, dooming your Comment to
oblivion.
110. Also learn from the senior editor that you cannot thank
Reviewer #1 even for simply ?confirming your calculations,? as
this would also reveal the obvious preferential treatment your
Comment has clearly received from the journal.
111. Explain that this is a common type of acknowledgment,
revealing no preferential treatment by the journal whatsoever,
and send him a copy of a recent paper from his journal in which
the authors thank a reviewer for actually proving several
theorems for them.
112. Learn from the senior editor that another reason that you
cannot thank Reviewer #1 is that there is no record of Reviewer
#1 actually having confirmed your calculations. Apparently, the
paper on which it was printed has, over the eons, turned to dust.
113. Send a copy of the email from the journal containing Reviewer
#1?s review to the senior editor.
114. Also, offer to put the senior editor in touch with Reviewer #1, in
case all records of Reviewer #1?s identity have also been lost.
115. Also, learn from the senior editor that he admits no expertise in
your field but that he will nevertheless not allow you to say in
your Comment that the approach that you proved twenty years
earlier is ?fundamentally impossible? is ?fundamentally
impossible.? Instead, you must say that it ?has not been shown
to be possible.?
116. Note that, if this could accurately be said about perpetualmotion
machines, it would rekindle interest in that long
forgotten field.
117. Receive no response.
118. Realize that this is probably good news.
119. Encounter a journal representative at a conference, who kindly
mentions that the one-page version of your Comment was, in
fact, sent to the authors for their Reply. And, after a series of
delays, they have submitted it. But, unfortunately, it is extremely
contentious and will be rejected unless toned down significantly.
It?s as if, for some reason, they want it to be rejected.
120. In preparation for the final phase of the Comment process, write
to the editor asking if you will be able to see the Reply to your
Comment and make minor modifications in view of it, as allowed
by most journals.
121. For once, obtain a quick response: ?No.?
122. Finally receive notice from the editor that the authors? official
Reply to your Comment has been reviewed and processed.
Unfortunately, it was not found suitable for publication and so
was rejected. And because, for maximum reader enjoyment, it
is the policy of this journal that a Comment cannot be published
without a Reply, your Comment cannot be published. This
decision is final.
123. Be advised that the journal thanks you for submitting your
Comment, and you should feel free to submit a paper on a
different subject in the future, as this journal features the most
rapid publication of any journal in this field.
Addendum: This ridiculous scenario actually occurred as written; I
didn?t make it up. I confess that, of course, I exaggerated the
responses from competitors, colleagues, friends, relatives, and myself,
but not those of the journal editors or the authors. Those events all
happened exactly as I?ve described them.
The fate described in the last two steps actually occurred to a
different Comment, which I submitted to a different journal a few
years earlier, and which, in fact, never was published, precisely for the
absurd reason given.
Over a year after submitting the Comment discussed in all the other
steps, realizing that it was clearly doomed to oblivion, I sent a copy of
this story to the senior editor?s boss. Shortly afterward, I received a
call from the senior editor, who had suddenly withdrawn all of his
objections. The Comment was fine as it was, and it would be
published!
However, I was still not allowed to see the authors? Reply until it
was actually in print. And when it appeared, it reiterated the same
erroneous claims and numbers (for the third time!) and then
introduced a few new erroneous claims, which, of course, I am not
allowed to respond to. So I?ve simply given up.
I?ve withheld the names of the various individuals in this story
because my purpose is not to make accusations (as much as I would
like to; they?re certainly deserved), but instead to effect some social
change. Nearly everyone I?ve encountered who has written a
Comment has found the system to be heavily biased against wellintentioned
correcting of errors?often serious ones?in the archival
literature. I find this quite disturbing.
And would it have killed these authors to email me their ?results?
prior to publishing them, so I could?ve enlightened them before they
committed themselves to their errors in print, thus avoiding all this
pain?
Finally, I should also mention that, to keep this story light and at
least somewhat entertaining, I actually simplified it somewhat,
omitting numerous additional steps involving journal web-site crashes,
undelivered emails, unreturned phone calls to dysfunctional pagers,
complaints to higher levels of journal management, and some rather
disturbing (and decidedly unfunny) behavior by the authors and
certain editors.
After all, I wouldn?t want to discourage you from submitting a
Comment.
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon May 24 22:06:18 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 15:06:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how science publication works
In-Reply-To: <4BFAD2EC.6020703@satx.rr.com>
References: <4BFAD2EC.6020703@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinCyTLyqzYbctAJqZxQ7JDJ8Xx4DzcJsAQKb-MY@mail.gmail.com>

> Finally, I should also mention that, to keep this story light and at
> least somewhat entertaining, I actually simplified it somewhat,
> omitting numerous additional steps involving journal web-site crashes,
> undelivered emails, unreturned phone calls to dysfunctional pagers,
> complaints to higher levels of journal management, and some rather
> disturbing (and decidedly unfunny) behavior by the authors and
> certain editors.
> After all, I wouldn?t want to discourage you from submitting a
> Comment.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Damn!!  Damien, there must be an entertaining novel or film in here,
somewhere...

John  : )



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon May 24 22:11:09 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 16:11:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimjG0vzOPfCFTaJ27Rbq496UlTjre0DJJTN2AZY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinqHMHGZRPOKk4OHAahD2Bgs2gCQxfJoIk99dbY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTile3q4YVkxD83h_rfXI50KEfW2KbYHP7zEyE3Ot@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik5A51nHIrYu5MwNqsie6oEI9Df5hLQKuQn-pnx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimjG0vzOPfCFTaJ27Rbq496UlTjre0DJJTN2AZY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfyQA_Bjem__Bh9mOGXXNwCvhF-zR9u4LqEcam@mail.gmail.com>

So what would it cost?  Specifically, since labor costs are variable,
what do the materials cost?

Anybody?

Jeff Davis

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 May 2010 09:00, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If chemical brain preservation is the best available means to preserve
>> brain structure for future uploading, then I am interested.
>
> Personally, I think I would be interested anyway.
>
> There may be plenty of good reason to preserve a given brain, or a few
> brains, for future use or study, and I do not see why this should not
> happen whenever somebody intends to do so.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 24 22:43:31 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:43:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: About your "Open Letter on Brain Preservation"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfyQA_Bjem__Bh9mOGXXNwCvhF-zR9u4LqEcam@mail.gmail.com>
References: <293829.64922.qm@web114418.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BF9A509.2030508@mac.com>
	<AANLkTinqHMHGZRPOKk4OHAahD2Bgs2gCQxfJoIk99dbY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTile3q4YVkxD83h_rfXI50KEfW2KbYHP7zEyE3Ot@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik5A51nHIrYu5MwNqsie6oEI9Df5hLQKuQn-pnx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimjG0vzOPfCFTaJ27Rbq496UlTjre0DJJTN2AZY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfyQA_Bjem__Bh9mOGXXNwCvhF-zR9u4LqEcam@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinED016GANY9yXm_vTjRCdN9O0qZL2sBJ0IApY3@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/24/10, Jeff Davis wrote:
> So what would it cost?  Specifically, since labor costs are variable,
>  what do the materials cost?
>
>

The procedure is not yet available. The Brain Preservation website
suggests another five years research.  But they are talking about the
same chemicals as are used today for tissue sample preservation.

The research problem is the scaling up from small tissue samples to a
complete brain preservation.
See:
<http://www.brainpreservation.org/documents/proposalforbrainpreservationtechnologyprize.pdf>
(No cost estimates in this report).

BillK


From scerir at libero.it  Mon May 24 22:51:37 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:51:37 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
Message-ID: <1286709.604171274741497761.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Stathis:
> There are two types of teleportation: quantum teleportation and
> classical teleportation. [...]

According to this paper (page 1,2) 
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf
there are five, different types of teleportation :-)
s.

maybe six now: 
http://blogs.physicstoday.org/update/2010/05/quantum-teleportation-through.html


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue May 25 01:25:44 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 11:25:44 +1000
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimU0uJaD8_XnqgHu2HTbd8BfkLHzWJOzoQ-w7S8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org> 
	<707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimU0uJaD8_XnqgHu2HTbd8BfkLHzWJOzoQ-w7S8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimJ0DoB1CKQdVSyOvVuUfP67h1FlctHU36dJG3X@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 May 2010 20:58, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 May 2010 10:01, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Your body (including your brain) is made up of different matter
>> compared to a few months ago, but you still feel you are the same
>> person. The soul has magically flitted from one body to another.
>
> To play the devil's advocate, everybody would feel he or she is the
> "same person" absolutely in any circumstance.

Not under any circumstances. I don't feel I am the same person as you,
but I feel that I am the same person as my self of a year ago. I also
would not feel I was the same person as an exact copy in the room with
me, and I would not feel I was the same person as my self of a year
ago if I could go back in time and meet him. It's difficult to come up
with a consistent philosophical account of selves.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue May 25 02:34:04 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 22:34:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil9BJOZZgRgThDE4ClXWdqnM7uMg6VS9oTaYeyu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10116985.1083811274640623220.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<AANLkTinJHYotY29fg96NRH1_KakARwdu4bjvRjARexEd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin_tT6NCY0ZVetaobDzsqS1eRwrC4byvK7_eds6@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil9BJOZZgRgThDE4ClXWdqnM7uMg6VS9oTaYeyu@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimkyI4h4e1-IwZ1Hi75owtdM5-2eJzCRgdXiWZm@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 5:48 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> I thought I felt somehow different and I now realize I'm actually an
> imposter!!
>

Until the real John Grigg is found you are granted the provisional right to
use his moniker.

Although after some period of time he may prove to be merely impersonating
you.

"I am the walrus"
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue May 25 07:50:17 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:50:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimJ0DoB1CKQdVSyOvVuUfP67h1FlctHU36dJG3X@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimU0uJaD8_XnqgHu2HTbd8BfkLHzWJOzoQ-w7S8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimJ0DoB1CKQdVSyOvVuUfP67h1FlctHU36dJG3X@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinXH1wJs5UDkp-H7dvfHfQBKp4qH5apdtaVpXeH@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 May 2010 20:58, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 24 May 2010 10:01, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Your body (including your brain) is made up of different matter
>>> compared to a few months ago, but you still feel you are the same
>>> person. The soul has magically flitted from one body to another.
>>
>> To play the devil's advocate, everybody would feel he or she is the
>> "same person" absolutely in any circumstance.
>
> Not under any circumstances. I don't feel I am the same person as you,
> but I feel that I am the same person as my self of a year ago. I also
> would not feel I was the same person as an exact copy in the room with
> me, and I would not feel I was the same person as my self of a year
> ago if I could go back in time and meet him. It's difficult to come up
> with a consistent philosophical account of selves.

### Yay, we got ourselves a bona fide identity thread, for the first
time this year it seems!

Indeed, there seem to be no limit on the number of various ways to
identify self - the Fregoli syndrome and its myriad versions (e.g. see
here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188301/?tool=pmcentrez&page=1)
 are just a sampling of what the self-identification circuitry in the
parietal, frontal and temporal cortices can mis-identify. It's no
surprise, since the circuits are an evolutionary kludge - and of
course, there are no "objective" standards of self vs. non-self, aside
from perhaps the notion that certain ways of constructing
self-identity are deleterious for the survival of the brain doing the
construction, so they tend to be uncommon.

Rafal


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue May 25 08:24:00 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 04:24:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Exi] Martin Gardner
In-Reply-To: <8C1B86E3-18AE-4C11-8F6F-A6F4F89094F4@bellsouth.net>
References: <22877085.505111274651912072.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<8C1B86E3-18AE-4C11-8F6F-A6F4F89094F4@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <FBD9171E-8B77-4EEA-9BBA-F27F9B11C913@bellsouth.net>

> Martin Gardner is dead. The world is now in a poorer place.

  John K Clark




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From algaenymph at gmail.com  Tue May 25 09:58:04 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 02:58:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
 =?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
Message-ID: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>

http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3563

The general gist of the article and supporting comments is that 
Transhumanism is run by evil elites, then goes off to describe examples 
of H+ in mass media brainwashing.

I'd normally disregard an article written by a tinfoil paranoid 
publication, but then I looked at the comments.

800+, and counting.  This is a live thread.

I feel this is indicative of a larger trend we need to confront, rather 
than disregard as unimportant.  I don't want angry mobs or demagogues 
using the law against us while we in-fight and complacently wait for the 
Singularity.  Yes, I believe we're doing that.  No, I won't stop voicing 
that concern, even when blatantly ignored.

Also the dialog between Damian and LVB (the author) is worth reading, if 
only for learning what to prepare for in an argument.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue May 25 15:23:10 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:23:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI]
 =?utf-8?b?VHJhbnNodW1hbmlzbSwgUHN5V2FyIGFuZCBCLkUuUC7igJlz?=
 =?utf-8?b?IOKAnEltbWEgQmXigJ0=?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFBEB5E.7030706@satx.rr.com>

On 5/25/2010 4:58 AM, AlgaeNymph wrote:

 >http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3563

> Also the dialog between Damian and LVB (the author) is worth reading, if
> only for learning what to prepare for in an argument.

In case anyone is wondering: I'm not the "Damian" in that discussion. An 
extremely quick look suggests that he's saying things I might not 
disagree with, though.

Damien Broderick


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue May 25 14:24:06 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:24:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mainstreamed transhumanism
Message-ID: <201005251535.o4PFZqpc015992@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

C-Span2 just aired a program from yesterday, which I assume will re-air
eventually or be available off their web site. It will definitely be on the
host's web site. The ostensible topic is "The Military & Robotic
Technology"; the host is the New America Foundation; site is the
Army & Navy Club in DC.

<http://www.newamerica.net/events/2010/warring_futures_a_future_tense_event>

I only caught the last session, most of which was pretty routine.
I watched not for new tech info but to hear how they characterized them.

What perked my ears is when someone on the panel brought up what
he called transhumanism, by which he meant simple pharm
enhancements (nootropics, reduced sleep requirements, etc.). He
noted that while the eugenics movement required government action,
individuals will augment when it is personally useful. It will require
government action to stop them. And if that augmentation is useful,
it will continue whatever government tries to do.

Then a member of the audience riffed (fairly accurately) on Kurzweil's
version (which he correctly noted predates Ray) of the inevitable and
soon "suicide of the human race" by creating its successors. He gave
a little speech and then the panel moved on. Except for using the
word 'suicide', he was pretty tempered in his opposition.

And the session was closed by David Plotz, from Slate Magazine,
declaring, "The singularity is not near. It's here. We're done."


-- David.



From giulio at gmail.com  Tue May 25 15:38:27 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 17:38:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
	=?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFBEB5E.7030706@satx.rr.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com> <4BFBEB5E.7030706@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimBiVliGmvDARsdrQF_cBc-UujoYoESmJUeilRs@mail.gmail.com>

The Damian in the discussion is a good transhumanist friend who does
not use to post on this list (or is not using any nym that I know of
here)

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 5/25/2010 4:58 AM, AlgaeNymph wrote:
>
>>http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3563
>
>> Also the dialog between Damian and LVB (the author) is worth reading, if
>> only for learning what to prepare for in an argument.
>
> In case anyone is wondering: I'm not the "Damian" in that discussion. An
> extremely quick look suggests that he's saying things I might not disagree
> with, though.
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From algaenymph at gmail.com  Tue May 25 15:48:35 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 08:48:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
Message-ID: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10150685.stm

"I hope very much these patents won't be accepted because they would 
bring genetic engineering under the control of the J Craig Venter 
Institute (JCVI). They would have a monopoly on a whole range of 
techniques." -- Professor John Sulston

I'd have a quote from the other side but...there wasn't any.  It did 
mention the main argument, "that it's important to have strong 
intellectual property and that it's essential for promoting innovation."

So, gene patents: help or hindrance?  Furthermore, how will they affect 
DIY Bio and academic research?


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue May 25 16:05:00 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Humanity+ Discussion List <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:35 AM
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10150685.stm

"I hope very much these patents won't be accepted because they would bring genetic engineering under the control of the J Craig Venter Institute (JCVI). They would have a monopoly on a whole range of techniques." -- Professor John Sulston

I'd have a quote from the other side but...there wasn't any.? It did mention the main argument, "that it's important to have strong intellectual property and that it's essential for promoting innovation."

So, gene patents: help or hindrance?? Furthermore, how will they affect DIY Bio and academic research?
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Tue May 25 16:44:18 2010
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:44:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1ff801cafc29$8662a1b0$9327e510$@bjellas.com>

Based on what?

- Sondre

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
Sent: 25. mai 2010 18:05
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Humanity+ Discussion
List <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:35 AM
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10150685.stm

"I hope very much these patents won't be accepted because they would bring
genetic engineering under the control of the J Craig Venter Institute
(JCVI). They would have a monopoly on a whole range of techniques." --
Professor John Sulston

I'd have a quote from the other side but...there wasn't any.? It did mention
the main argument, "that it's important to have strong intellectual property
and that it's essential for promoting innovation."

So, gene patents: help or hindrance?? Furthermore, how will they affect DIY
Bio and academic research?
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue May 25 17:13:32 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:13:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
	=?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimBiVliGmvDARsdrQF_cBc-UujoYoESmJUeilRs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com> <4BFBEB5E.7030706@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimBiVliGmvDARsdrQF_cBc-UujoYoESmJUeilRs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimCg0BohoBVJGR1uA8F29qHVuuycLb7kQkVTkil@mail.gmail.com>

I couldn't resist leaving a brief note there saying the article is
bullshit, lying communist propaganda. No need to reasonably argue with
haters.You can be reasonable with doubters but not with all-out
enemies.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue May 25 17:16:21 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:16:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.
>
>

### Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation (yeah, I know,
patents are issued by the state, and I also would prefer to have them
issued by a private authority but for now state patents are better
than nothing).

Rafal


From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Tue May 25 17:30:11 2010
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:30:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>

Says who and what? Does it apply to all engineering fields?

Quick Google search gives me:
http://techrights.org/2009/07/11/study-shows-patents-stifle-innovation/

" It?s extraordinary how the myth that patents somehow promote innovation is
still propagated and widely accepted; and yet there is practically *no*
empirical evidence that it?s true. All the studies that have looked at this
area rigorously come to quite a different conclusion."

And on gene patents:
http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_articles/gene_patents_stifle_innovati
on_block_competition

"exclusive patent rights could slow promising new technologies and business
models for genetic testing even further, the Duke researchers say."


I don't know the truth in this case, but I do know that opinions ends where
facts take over.


- Sondre

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal
Smigrodzki
Sent: 25. mai 2010 19:16
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.
>
>

### Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation (yeah, I know, patents are
issued by the state, and I also would prefer to have them issued by a
private authority but for now state patents are better than nothing).

Rafal
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue May 25 17:53:21 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:53:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] another approach to the dark matter business
Message-ID: <AANLkTinHuZPMNOp-BZFBUwlbEhrjF88s_G7Ht8z_QsJx@mail.gmail.com>

All the talk about dark matter the last few years has given the idea
some currency, some seeming legitimacy.  Now I hear of another,
heretofore unnoticed by me, explanation, another theory.

How Duality Could Resolve Dark Matter Dilemma
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25214/?nlid=3025

And so I offer it for inspection to youse guys.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                       Ray Charles


From thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com  Tue May 25 17:43:06 2010
From: thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com (Thirdeye Of Eris)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 13:43:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
	=?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimCg0BohoBVJGR1uA8F29qHVuuycLb7kQkVTkil@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com> <4BFBEB5E.7030706@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimBiVliGmvDARsdrQF_cBc-UujoYoESmJUeilRs@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimCg0BohoBVJGR1uA8F29qHVuuycLb7kQkVTkil@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikL2kw31V66GdbiHCxsD9YW8f3XAP8ODxk4tsC3@mail.gmail.com>

Fear is a powerful motivator... people fear change, especially people who
stand to lose something from that change, and they lash out. This particular
person seems to have a lot to lose from the changes that transhumanism
proposes. My guess is that they are some sort of zealot and either stand to
lose power over other humans or that they recognize that they will have to
end up taking responsibility for every act they committed in their lives...

--Isaac

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> I couldn't resist leaving a brief note there saying the article is
> bullshit, lying communist propaganda. No need to reasonably argue with
> haters.You can be reasonable with doubters but not with all-out
> enemies.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ?state? and?society?
and ?government? have no existence save as physically exemplified in the
acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to
shift blame, share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt,
responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and
nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his
evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world... aware
that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge
of self-failure."

               -- Professor De La Paz from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by
Robert Heinlein
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue May 25 19:06:12 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 12:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI]
 =?utf-8?b?VHJhbnNodW1hbmlzbSwgUHN5V2FyIGFuZCBCLkUuUC7igJlz?=
 =?utf-8?b?IOKAnEltbWEgQmXigJ0=?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <747989.76375.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then
they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

Took long enough to get to step 3.

--- On Tue, 5/25/10, AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3563
> 
> The general gist of the article and supporting comments is
> that Transhumanism is run by evil elites, then goes off to
> describe examples of H+ in mass media brainwashing.
> 
> I'd normally disregard an article written by a tinfoil
> paranoid publication, but then I looked at the comments.
> 
> 800+, and counting.? This is a live thread.
> 
> I feel this is indicative of a larger trend we need to
> confront, rather than disregard as unimportant.? I
> don't want angry mobs or demagogues using the law against us
> while we in-fight and complacently wait for the
> Singularity.? Yes, I believe we're doing that.?
> No, I won't stop voicing that concern, even when blatantly
> ignored.
> 
> Also the dialog between Damian and LVB (the author) is
> worth reading, if only for learning what to prepare for in
> an argument.




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue May 25 20:45:48 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 13:45:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Sondre Bjell?s
<sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> Says who and what? Does it apply to all engineering fields?
>
> Quick Google search gives me:
> http://techrights.org/2009/07/11/study-shows-patents-stifle-innovation/
>
> " It?s extraordinary how the myth that patents somehow promote innovation is
> still propagated and widely accepted; and yet there is practically *no*
> empirical evidence that it?s true. All the studies that have looked at this
> area rigorously come to quite a different conclusion."

### That's the problem with a quick search - you can find a document
in support of virtually any opinion that has ever been articulated by
humankind.

Now, give me a direct link to a preferably peer-reviewed publication
on the subject of efficiency of patent law, and we could have a
discussion.

Rafal



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue May 25 21:12:30 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:12:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> You are exactly right regarding searching for any topic on the web ;-)
> Which is why I'm asking "who and what" is the reason for your statement:
> "Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation"
> The content I read on patents does not clearly say that patent stimulates,
> on the?contrary, I must be reading the wrong material.
> Check for instance "Against Intellectual Property" by?Stephan
> Kinsella:?http://www.scribd.com/doc/7511095/Against-Intellectual-Property-by-Stephan-Kinsella-

### OK, let's start at the beginning:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4132712

Countries without strong patent protection did not produce innovations
except in the industrial branches where profits from innovation could
be realized without patent protection.

Rafal

PS. I notice you are linking to polemics devoted to a specific point
of view, not to original research aiming at gaining understanding of
the issue at hand.

I am extremely resistant to being swayed by polemics.



From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Tue May 25 20:55:02 2010
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:55:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>

You are exactly right regarding searching for any topic on the web ;-)

Which is why I'm asking "who and what" is the reason for your
statement: "Clearly,
yes, patenting stimulates innovation"

The content I read on patents does not clearly say that patent stimulates,
on the contrary, I must be reading the wrong material.

Check for instance "Against Intellectual Property" by Stephan Kinsella:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7511095/Against-Intellectual-Property-by-Stephan-Kinsella-


- Sondre

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Sondre Bjell?s
> <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> > Says who and what? Does it apply to all engineering fields?
> >
> > Quick Google search gives me:
> > http://techrights.org/2009/07/11/study-shows-patents-stifle-innovation/
> >
> > " It?s extraordinary how the myth that patents somehow promote innovation
> is
> > still propagated and widely accepted; and yet there is practically *no*
> > empirical evidence that it?s true. All the studies that have looked at
> this
> > area rigorously come to quite a different conclusion."
>
> ### That's the problem with a quick search - you can find a document
> in support of virtually any opinion that has ever been articulated by
> humankind.
>
> Now, give me a direct link to a preferably peer-reviewed publication
> on the subject of efficiency of patent law, and we could have a
> discussion.
>
> Rafal
>



-- 
Sondre Bjell?s | Senior Solutions Architect | Steria
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue May 25 21:04:09 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:04:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <1ff801cafc29$8662a1b0$9327e510$@bjellas.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1ff801cafc29$8662a1b0$9327e510$@bjellas.com>
Message-ID: <100719.650.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Evidence and arguments from things like this:

http://techdirt.com/articles/20060118/0256239_F.shtml

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 12:44:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

Based on what?

- Sondre

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
Sent: 25. mai 2010 18:05
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.

Regards,

Dan

----- Original Message ----
From: AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Humanity+ Discussion
List <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:35 AM
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10150685.stm

"I hope very much these patents won't be accepted because they would bring
genetic engineering under the control of the J Craig Venter Institute
(JCVI). They would have a monopoly on a whole range of techniques." --
Professor John Sulston

I'd have a quote from the other side but...there wasn't any.? It did mention
the main argument, "that it's important to have strong intellectual property
and that it's essential for promoting innovation."

So, gene patents: help or hindrance?? Furthermore, how will they affect DIY
Bio and academic research?


      



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue May 25 21:07:02 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:07:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <901758.63911.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sorry, that second sentence is confusing. I meant that I disagree with the view "not having patents stifles innovation." In other words, I do not believe that innovation is stifled by a lack of patents. (This is aside from the moral case against patents and intellectual property in general.)

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 1:16:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.
>
>

### Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation (yeah, I know,
patents are issued by the state, and I also would prefer to have them
issued by a private authority but for now state patents are better
than nothing).

Rafal
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue May 25 21:16:16 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:16:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <195837.9077.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is a good resource for works dealing with patent issues from an anti-IP perspective:

http://ip-policy.wikispaces.com/

But, since patents do require the use of force to enforce, the burden should fall on the patent advocate to support them. Where is your peer-reviewed evidence for patents working?

Regards,

Dan

----- Original Message ----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
To: Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 4:45:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Sondre Bjell?s
<sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> Says who and what? Does it apply to all engineering fields?
>
> Quick Google search gives me:
> http://techrights.org/2009/07/11/study-shows-patents-stifle-innovation/
>
> " It?s extraordinary how the myth that patents somehow promote innovation is
> still propagated and widely accepted; and yet there is practically *no*
> empirical evidence that it?s true. All the studies that have looked at this
> area rigorously come to quite a different conclusion."

### That's the problem with a quick search - you can find a document
in support of virtually any opinion that has ever been articulated by
humankind.

Now, give me a direct link to a preferably peer-reviewed publication
on the subject of efficiency of patent law, and we could have a
discussion.

Rafal

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From phob at ninja.net  Tue May 25 22:44:35 2010
From: phob at ninja.net (Paul Hobbs)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:44:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
	=?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <747989.76375.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
	<747989.76375.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTingELzKEAxhgBAhdaamd6VJJQ68eubh62scGr_S@mail.gmail.com>

Obviously, the author and most of the commenters are somewhat off the
rails, but of course we do have to be careful to not let biological
enhancement be used immorally (by the government or other group). ?A
mass-media campaign to support such a power-grab would not be out of
the question.
--
Paul Hobbs


On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then
> they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi
>
> Took long enough to get to step 3.
>
> --- On Tue, 5/25/10, AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3563
> >
> > The general gist of the article and supporting comments is
> > that Transhumanism is run by evil elites, then goes off to
> > describe examples of H+ in mass media brainwashing.
> >
> > I'd normally disregard an article written by a tinfoil
> > paranoid publication, but then I looked at the comments.
> >
> > 800+, and counting.? This is a live thread.
> >
> > I feel this is indicative of a larger trend we need to
> > confront, rather than disregard as unimportant.? I
> > don't want angry mobs or demagogues using the law against us
> > while we in-fight and complacently wait for the
> > Singularity.? Yes, I believe we're doing that.
> > No, I won't stop voicing that concern, even when blatantly
> > ignored.
> >
> > Also the dialog between Damian and LVB (the author) is
> > worth reading, if only for learning what to prepare for in
> > an argument.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed May 26 05:07:38 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:37:38 +0930
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinXH1wJs5UDkp-H7dvfHfQBKp4qH5apdtaVpXeH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimU0uJaD8_XnqgHu2HTbd8BfkLHzWJOzoQ-w7S8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimJ0DoB1CKQdVSyOvVuUfP67h1FlctHU36dJG3X@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinXH1wJs5UDkp-H7dvfHfQBKp4qH5apdtaVpXeH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilCDL42JQhTEtMR9YCJ84YPCvhvCPfbaRD9EPWO@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 May 2010 17:20, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 24 May 2010 20:58, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 24 May 2010 10:01, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Your body (including your brain) is made up of different matter
>>>> compared to a few months ago, but you still feel you are the same
>>>> person. The soul has magically flitted from one body to another.
>>>
>>> To play the devil's advocate, everybody would feel he or she is the
>>> "same person" absolutely in any circumstance.
>>
>> Not under any circumstances. I don't feel I am the same person as you,
>> but I feel that I am the same person as my self of a year ago. I also
>> would not feel I was the same person as an exact copy in the room with
>> me, and I would not feel I was the same person as my self of a year
>> ago if I could go back in time and meet him. It's difficult to come up
>> with a consistent philosophical account of selves.
>
> ### Yay, we got ourselves a bona fide identity thread, for the first
> time this year it seems!
>
> Indeed, there seem to be no limit on the number of various ways to
> identify self - the Fregoli syndrome and its myriad versions (e.g. see
> here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188301/?tool=pmcentrez&page=1)
> ?are just a sampling of what the self-identification circuitry in the
> parietal, frontal and temporal cortices can mis-identify. It's no
> surprise, since the circuits are an evolutionary kludge - and of
> course, there are no "objective" standards of self vs. non-self, aside
> from perhaps the notion that certain ways of constructing
> self-identity are deleterious for the survival of the brain doing the
> construction, so they tend to be uncommon.
>
> Rafal

Identity is arbitrary and malleable, yep I'll buy that.

I think it's good that we write these endless identity threads. Post
uploading, the sense of what identity is will have changed so much,
that these written records might be the only way the uploads can
figure out how humanity used to feel about the self.

-- 
Emlyn

http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed May 26 05:47:27 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 01:47:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity.
In-Reply-To: <4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikzdIu9d-rZGs5aXutIFeiZsFb96EAwwJQTnAH2@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikQ8pJHkWrzcUvb1Fg59KH0I8kR-CMhQ0hDD7pX@mail.gmail.com>	<4BF56FE3.1010309@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimUxQHOVkZ9ot7p_nwx8BmI4ydCpTl0glp_DOFR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF821C9.3080807@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3503B934-3E1F-4A93-9A28-BC0F5AFD660B@bellsouth.net>

On May 22, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> If it turns out that there *is* something like a "soul" that flits from body to body and that comprises the core of continuing identity, I'd probably change my opinion. 


Actually there *is* something like a soul, it's not identical but information is as close as you can get to the traditional concept of the soul and still remain within the scientific method. Consider the similarities:

The soul is non material and so is information. It's difficult to pin down a unique physical location for the soul, and the same is true for information. The soul is the essential, must have, part of consciousness, exactly the same situation is true for information. The soul is immortal and so, potentially, is information.                
But there are also important differences too:

A soul is unique but information can be duplicated. The soul is and will always remain unfathomable, but information is understandable, in fact, information is the ONLY thing that is understandable. Information unambiguously exists, I don't think anyone would deny that, but if the soul exists it will never be proven scientifically. 

  John K Clark
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 26 06:32:35 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 07:32:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilCDL42JQhTEtMR9YCJ84YPCvhvCPfbaRD9EPWO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimU0uJaD8_XnqgHu2HTbd8BfkLHzWJOzoQ-w7S8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimJ0DoB1CKQdVSyOvVuUfP67h1FlctHU36dJG3X@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinXH1wJs5UDkp-H7dvfHfQBKp4qH5apdtaVpXeH@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilCDL42JQhTEtMR9YCJ84YPCvhvCPfbaRD9EPWO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin4L19JShXClzhNFyuTWWDcYzRiU23OYK2HthEy@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/26/10, Emlyn  wrote:
> Identity is arbitrary and malleable, yep I'll buy that.
>
>  I think it's good that we write these endless identity threads. Post
>  uploading, the sense of what identity is will have changed so much,
>  that these written records might be the only way the uploads can
>  figure out how humanity used to feel about the self.
>
>


I just happened to mention this to my CIA contact (or Deep Throat, as
I nicknamed him) and he gave me a funny look. An hour later an
encrypted 50-page pdf file arrived in my inbox, detailing exactly who
I was and had been.

It self-destructed after 30 minutes, but I don't think that's what
malleable means.


BillK


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed May 26 10:21:20 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:21:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <195837.9077.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<195837.9077.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BFCF620.9050304@mac.com>

Dan wrote:
> This is a good resource for works dealing with patent issues from an anti-IP perspective:
>
> http://ip-policy.wikispaces.com/
>
> But, since patents do require the use of force to enforce, the burden should fall on the patent advocate to support them. Where is your peer-reviewed evidence for patents working?
>
>   
Nice resource and very timely.  I am in the process of creating and a 
small group talk called "IP and the Future".   I was tempted to call it 
"IP vs the Future" but that seemed prejudicial.  :)  Thanks!

- s


> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> To: Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>
> Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 4:45:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Sondre Bjell?s
> <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
>   
>> Says who and what? Does it apply to all engineering fields?
>>
>> Quick Google search gives me:
>> http://techrights.org/2009/07/11/study-shows-patents-stifle-innovation/
>>
>> " It's extraordinary how the myth that patents somehow promote innovation is
>> still propagated and widely accepted; and yet there is practically *no*
>> empirical evidence that it's true. All the studies that have looked at this
>> area rigorously come to quite a different conclusion."
>>     
>
> ### That's the problem with a quick search - you can find a document
> in support of virtually any opinion that has ever been articulated by
> humankind.
>
> Now, give me a direct link to a preferably peer-reviewed publication
> on the subject of efficiency of patent law, and we could have a
> discussion.
>
> Rafal
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
>       
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed May 26 10:25:13 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:25:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
>   
>> You are exactly right regarding searching for any topic on the web ;-)
>> Which is why I'm asking "who and what" is the reason for your statement:
>> "Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation"
>> The content I read on patents does not clearly say that patent stimulates,
>> on the contrary, I must be reading the wrong material.
>> Check for instance "Against Intellectual Property" by Stephan
>> Kinsella: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7511095/Against-Intellectual-Property-by-Stephan-Kinsella-
>>     
>
> ### OK, let's start at the beginning:
>
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/4132712
>
> Countries without strong patent protection did not produce innovations
> except in the industrial branches where profits from innovation could
> be realized without patent protection.
>
>   

One can ask, how would the profits be realized if everyone was 
immediately able to legally copy the industrial inventions that would 
have been patent protected before?  Wouldn't the R&D cost be a 
disadvantage to the creating company as all other competitors gut the 
successful results of that R&D for free or only for the cost of 
implementing the known working design? 

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed May 26 10:37:42 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:37:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <100719.650.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1ff801cafc29$8662a1b0$9327e510$@bjellas.com>
	<100719.650.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BFCF9F6.3070500@mac.com>

Dan wrote:
> Evidence and arguments from things like this:
>
> http://techdirt.com/articles/20060118/0256239_F.shtml
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 12:44:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
>
> Based on what?
>
> - Sondre
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
> Sent: 25. mai 2010 18:05
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
>
> In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.
>
>   

It may be that not all patents are created equal.  In particular the 
worth of patents including their beneficial or inimical effects may 
depend on:

- type of item to be patented;
- length of patent period;
- licensing requirements;
- whether there is an actual testable invention or merely a concept that 
is seeking patent;
- whether the patent is actually render into product by the holder
- what kind of entity (government or private) issues the patent
- what critieria are applied to determine whether a patent should be granted

I think most would agree that software is a pretty inimical thing to 
patent by its very nature.  And that probably process patents generally 
fall into this category.  I am not so sure about patents on physical 
devices.   So far I am pretty opposed to most types of gene patents, 
especially ones that include little or no real invention.    In general 
patents on things that a competent practitioner would invent with come 
up with themselves as a reasonable possible solution are a bad thing to 
put patent roadblocks on.    It may be the general anti-patent case is a 
lot cleaner to make though.

-s
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Humanity+ Discussion
> List <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>
> Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 11:48:35 AM
> Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10150685.stm
>
> "I hope very much these patents won't be accepted because they would bring
> genetic engineering under the control of the J Craig Venter Institute
> (JCVI). They would have a monopoly on a whole range of techniques." --
> Professor John Sulston
>
> I'd have a quote from the other side but...there wasn't any.  It did mention
> the main argument, "that it's important to have strong intellectual property
> and that it's essential for promoting innovation."
>
> So, gene patents: help or hindrance?  Furthermore, how will they affect DIY
> Bio and academic research?
>
>
>       
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed May 26 10:41:15 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:41:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFCFACB.2080808@mac.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Sondre Bjell?s
> <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
>   
>> Says who and what? Does it apply to all engineering fields?
>>
>> Quick Google search gives me:
>> http://techrights.org/2009/07/11/study-shows-patents-stifle-innovation/
>>
>> " It's extraordinary how the myth that patents somehow promote innovation is
>> still propagated and widely accepted; and yet there is practically *no*
>> empirical evidence that it's true. All the studies that have looked at this
>> area rigorously come to quite a different conclusion."
>>     
>
> ### That's the problem with a quick search - you can find a document
> in support of virtually any opinion that has ever been articulated by
> humankind.
>
> Now, give me a direct link to a preferably peer-reviewed publication
> on the subject of efficiency of patent law, and we could have a
> discussion.
>   

What exactly would be valid measurements of or criteria for this 
"efficiency"?    What kinds of peers in what areas? 

- s

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed May 26 10:42:21 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:42:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFCFB0D.5080900@mac.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   
>> In my mind bad. I disagree that not having patents stifles innovation.
>>
>>
>>     
>
> ### Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation (yeah, I know,
> patents are issued by the state, and I also would prefer to have them
> issued by a private authority but for now state patents are better
> than nothing).
>   

It isn't clear to me or to anyone else here it seems.  So perhaps it 
actually is not so clear.  Especially in very questionable areas such as 
software patents.

- s

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From algaenymph at gmail.com  Wed May 26 10:57:35 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:57:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
 =?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
 =?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTingELzKEAxhgBAhdaamd6VJJQ68eubh62scGr_S@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>	<747989.76375.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTingELzKEAxhgBAhdaamd6VJJQ68eubh62scGr_S@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFCFE9F.8090007@gmail.com>

Paul Hobbs wrote:
> Obviously, the author and most of the commenters are somewhat off the
> rails
Somewhat?  LVB says that H+ " is a /highly organized and well financed 
movement/."

...

It's not undead like Technocracy Inc., but that's it.
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From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Wed May 26 11:08:37 2010
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:08:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>

Obviously would it be positive for a single entity to gain
government-controlled monopoly on anything it can sell, that's pretty
certain. It is also very certain that this has negative consequence on the
society as a whole.

Certain types of organizations and products probably wouldn't sell as well
in a society without patent laws, but you would most likely have other
products and organizations which would serve other purposes and markets.
Nothing beats the free market, and it's not a positive trend we're seeing
around the global with big governments protecting failing corporations, some
companies and products are just prone to fail sooner or later.

It's a philosophical discussion whether "intellectual property" deserves to
exist in the manner it does today, but that's a whole another discussion.


With this said, I would just like to add an example to your question:

Company X and Y are in the business of developing CRM software. Company X is
first on the market and patent-protects some of it's innovations. This means
Company Y is under the constant treat of being in violation of Company Y's
patents as patents are generally very broad in their descriptions. Hence, X
is stifling Y's ability to innovate and bring competing products to the
market. Then again, you could argue that Y should pay royalty fee to X since
they where there first, but remember that two inventions can happen at the
same time independently but only the first guy to patent it wins. Patent
laws makes it possible for any holder to actually crush a competitor
completely and make it impossible for them to actually sell competing
products.

So then we have X and Y, who are both putting a lot of money into R&D to
develop CRM products. They both spend one billion dollars, a total of two
billion. To cover these costs, they would need to price their products in
the market to earn money back on their investments in R&D. So the market has
to pay a minimum of two billion dollars for CRM software.

If no protection was possible and Y could "copy-cat" some of the ideas and
innovations from X, then we potentially could cut the R&D costs in half, one
billion dollars (for the point of the argument let's make it half, though
would probably be higher). This means the two companies have used only one
billion dollars to create two competing CRM software products, which the
market only have to pay in total one billion dollars for. This means the
market spend less money on CRM licenses and the two companies probably would
earn more money since software generally are cheap anyway so they wouldn't
lower their prices 50%.

Would company X do the initial investments in R&D if they couldn't protect
their innovations? My argument is yes, they would. Wherever there is money
to be made, there will be investments. Would the product be different? Yes,
probably. Would the product be developed in more incremental manner? Yes,
probably. Is this good for the consumers? Yes, very likely.

-- 

Regarding one of the links mentioned on this thread, I seriously doubt
patents is the reason for SAP's problematic issues. I have worked at big
organizations with large SAP-implementations, it's in no way related to
patents that they are having problems now. SAP consultants have generally
been very expensive and very lucrative, with innovations in the open source
space and availability of cheaper resources from countries such as India and
China, few companies are willing to pay the premium and
costly investments that SAP represents. SAPs recent change in view on
patents is in my persona opinion, just a way to gain money where they no
longer are able to stay up-to-date and be a choice for customers:
http://techdirt.com/articles/20060118/0256239_F.shtml

PS: We don't have software patents (which are really process patents) in
Norway, and we've had some pretty big innovations that was very costly.
Opera Software (browser), Funcom (games), Qt (open source framework) and
FAST (search engine). Qt was bought by Nokia and FAST was bought by
Microsoft.


- Sondre


2010/5/26 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>

>  Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
>
>
>  You are exactly right regarding searching for any topic on the web ;-)
> Which is why I'm asking "who and what" is the reason for your statement:
> "Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation"
> The content I read on patents does not clearly say that patent stimulates,
> on the contrary, I must be reading the wrong material.
> Check for instance "Against Intellectual Property" by Stephan
> Kinsella: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7511095/Against-Intellectual-Property-by-Stephan-Kinsella-
>
>
>  ### OK, let's start at the beginning:
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/4132712
>
> Countries without strong patent protection did not produce innovations
> except in the industrial branches where profits from innovation could
> be realized without patent protection.
>
>
>
>
> One can ask, how would the profits be realized if everyone was immediately
> able to legally copy the industrial inventions that would have been patent
> protected before?  Wouldn't the R&D cost be a disadvantage to the creating
> company as all other competitors gut the successful results of that R&D for
> free or only for the cost of implementing the known working design?
>
> - samantha
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
Sondre Bjell?s | Senior Solutions Architect | Steria
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed May 26 12:29:56 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 05:29:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Well financed was Transhumanism,
	PsyWar and B.E.P.?s ?Imma Be?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikG4sKiWYKtuCtgUIX0QhbecyByER1YehBv4nIe@mail.gmail.com>

http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3563

"It is a highly organized and well financed movement"

That's enough to dismiss the article.

Keith


From aleksei at iki.fi  Wed May 26 13:46:55 2010
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:46:55 +0300
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
	=?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikoZWDDF3PAIvtD-06goKxYs_7yO5zzkVeS-4-z@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 12:58 PM, AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3563
>
> The general gist of the article and supporting comments is that
> Transhumanism is run by evil elites, then goes off to describe examples of
> H+ in mass media brainwashing.
>
> I'd normally disregard an article written by a tinfoil paranoid publication,
> but then I looked at the comments.
>
> 800+, and counting. ?This is a live thread.
>
> I feel this is indicative of a larger trend we need to confront, rather than
> disregard as unimportant. ?I don't want angry mobs or demagogues using the
> law against us while we in-fight and complacently wait for the Singularity.
> ?Yes, I believe we're doing that. ?No, I won't stop voicing that concern,
> even when blatantly ignored.
>
> Also the dialog between Damian and LVB (the author) is worth reading, if
> only for learning what to prepare for in an argument.

Several transhumanist bloggers talked about this entertaining
conspiracy theorist a few weeks ago already. This blog post happens to
contain links to several of the others:

http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2010/05/cover-for-christina-aguileras-next-album-bionic/

I for one welcome our conspiracy theorist "friends", and hope Alex
Jones would again demonize us one of these days. Anyone with half a
brain will see that these folks are out of their minds, but the more
people hear of us, even from such sources, the better it is for us.
The closer that a particular person is to being competent in thinking
and in actually achieving his goals, whatever they are, the more
likely (s)he, once hearing of us or any other group, is to arrive to a
non-deluded view of what we are about.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei



From aleksei at iki.fi  Wed May 26 13:51:41 2010
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:51:41 +0300
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
	=?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimvaoOToFQ6F0ufnsM8w3-FbzuPAYR5Lc0JNWEW@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 12:58 PM, AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>?I don't want angry mobs or demagogues using the law against us
> while we in-fight and complacently wait for the Singularity.
>?Yes, I believe we're doing that. ?No, I won't stop voicing that concern,
> even when blatantly ignored.

Some are focused on in-fighting and being complacent, while others are
making swift progress, e.g. Nick Bostrom's institute at Oxford,
Singularity University and the SIAI.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei



From algaenymph at gmail.com  Wed May 26 14:18:38 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 07:18:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
 =?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
 =?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikoZWDDF3PAIvtD-06goKxYs_7yO5zzkVeS-4-z@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikoZWDDF3PAIvtD-06goKxYs_7yO5zzkVeS-4-z@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFD2DBE.5000203@gmail.com>

Aleksei Riikonen wrote:
> I for one welcome our conspiracy theorist "friends", and hope Alex
> Jones would again demonize us one of these days.
As do I.  *Right wing* conspiracy theorists don't worry me, I know 
they'll be disregarded.  It's the people from my figurative and literal 
neighborhood (I live in San Francisco...) that worry me.  Much of the 
rhetoric is about "evil elites," the sort of thing we've never given a 
good answer too beyond "it'll get cheaper /eventually/" and "it'll 
trickle down /eventually/." (Emphasis mine.)

However, AfroCyberPunk's comments hearten me.  It's good to know I'm not 
alone in my concern.
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From aleksei at iki.fi  Wed May 26 14:44:45 2010
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:44:45 +0300
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
	=?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFD2DBE.5000203@gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikoZWDDF3PAIvtD-06goKxYs_7yO5zzkVeS-4-z@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFD2DBE.5000203@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimkLQfuyfG--9GP0X3p-JYeNNA7r1UyVB4-417P@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/26 AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com>:
> Aleksei Riikonen wrote:
>
>> I for one welcome our conspiracy theorist "friends", and hope Alex
>> Jones would again demonize us one of these days.
>
> As do I.? *Right wing* conspiracy theorists don't worry me, I know they'll
> be disregarded.? It's the people from my figurative and literal neighborhood
> (I live in San Francisco...) that worry me.

Left wing conspiracy theorists have even less political power than the
right wing, so you should worry about them even less.

>?Much of the rhetoric is about "evil elites," the sort of thing we've
> never given a good answer too beyond "it'll get cheaper
> eventually" and "it'll trickle down eventually." (Emphasis mine.)

There is no knock-down argument against the possibility of "evil
elites" using advanced technology very destructively before others get
their hands on it. Considering history (and other things), it would be
very weird and unusual if it wasn't an elite of some sort that first
got access to new technologies. What we have an opportunity to
influence is whether it's a "good elite" (who democratize the benefits
swiftly) or an "evil" one.

So you should strive to be among the people who get to decide how
these technologies are first used, and try to be "good" instead of
"evil". If your leftist friends don't understand the argument that
they should also do this, and help "us transhumanists, the good guys
(though not all transhumanists are good guys)", well, they're only
increasing the probability that an evil entity will steamroll over
them (and us).

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei



From moulton at moulton.com  Wed May 19 04:09:45 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:09:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism: Better
 thinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>
References: <A7EC6218BF494CD8B9FA954AF6CAA4D8@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTikM7H-k7jMQUEBLid1QJprnv-l_hFEwPaN8vJya@mail.gmail.com>
	<73831AB5DE3C4B849FD3E54FB52D2E17@spike> <4BF2F20A.4050903@gmail.com>
	<4BF3081A.3040608@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1274242185.5134.32653.camel@desktop-linux>


Before we spiral off into woo woo land can I make the following
suggestions:


1. If you are going make a statement about steel please specify exactly
which type of steel (composition, form, etc) and if you are referring to
melt or yield and how those terms are defined.

2. Present at least two solid, reliable technically competent sources
that back up your assertion with full URLs.

3. Find the best source that contradicts your position and provide that
URL.  Even if it is a woo woo site at least show that you looked for
some other information.

Thanks

Fred





From moulton at moulton.com  Thu May 20 00:05:49 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:05:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trutherism: was RE: Social aim for Transhumanism:
 Betterthinking about issues
In-Reply-To: <4BF476B8.7050006@mac.com>
References: <20100519043036.65630.qmail@moulton.com>
	<674EB1A162424799AB91BD663876AAC1@DFC68LF1> <4BF476B8.7050006@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1274313949.5134.32820.camel@desktop-linux>

On Wed, 2010-05-19 at 16:39 -0700, samantha wrote:
> Or at least slowing down a possible tirade from all sides and opinions. 
> :)  But bringing up the woo-woo term was not called for imho at this point.


In my message I did not say that the term woo woo applied to any of the
positions which had been stated.  When I first composed that message I
did have a term which would have referenced one "side" of the discussion
and I took it out and put it woo woo as a non-specific term since in the
past I have seen both sides make wild accusations about what happened as
well as other participants.  Fortunately on this list we have avoided
some of the worst aspects of this.

I do have a personal opinion on all of the topic of World Trade Center
but I am  not going to state it at this time since I think that would
derail the point that I am trying to make.  And I think my second and
third items on the list apply to the majority of things which come up on
this list.

On the general topic of cognition I recently started looking at a the
following short summary of Cognitive Biases and while I have not
reviewed it in depth the first couple of pages look fairly good:
http://www.scribd.com/documents/30548590/Cognitive-Biases-A-Visual-Study-Guide-by-the-Royal-Society-of-Account-Planning
or
http://bit.ly/cnsEYZ

Thanks

Fred




From moulton at moulton.com  Wed May 19 04:16:59 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:16:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Israel and Transhumanism article in H+
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinQg56hi9A7FDPI9RfV41LgZq2np0IeLLhmdV2U@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005182351.o4INp7DR004491@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<86FB6AFE98504B9382C85EB76A62785C@spike>
	<AANLkTimspdqA-zF7_NK5U91Dnco2IZlxkb6RokcrdtRT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1274242619.5134.32660.camel@desktop-linux>

On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 19:00 -0700, John Grigg wrote:
> Transhumanism tends to be antagonistic toward religion, and
> ironically, Israel and it's people are infused (in one way or another)
> with Judaism. 

Well not exactly.  Remember that there are a lot of non-Jews in Israel.
And not all Jews are religious. Not to mention the issue of what you
mean by Israel; i.e. what is considered the border.

These are very complicated and nuanced issues.  There is one thing that
I have seen over the years in mailing lists, blogs, face to face, etc
the probability of any discussion of Israel turning into a shouting
match or flame war tends to be very high.  Not absolute but very high.

Thanks

Fred




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed May 26 16:32:34 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <4BFCF9F6.3070500@mac.com>
Message-ID: <634716.42894.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 5/26/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> In general 
> patents on things that a competent practitioner would
> invent with come 
> up with themselves as a reasonable possible solution are a
> bad thing to 
> put patent roadblocks on.

Well said.  The problem isn't patents in general.  It's
that the offices that grant patents are not equipped to
understand what most practitioners in any new-tech field
could easily come up with, as opposed to what takes
serious innovation and resources to develop, and that a
lot of folk have picked up on this and flooded the patent
office with applications for simple things (which only
compounds the patent offices' lack of resources).

This, in turn, can be traced to the continued pressure on
politicians to add more services and perform them with
less tax dollars - regardless of whether the services
actually continue to function well (or ever functioned
well, for new services).  There is a reason so many
aspiring politicians start by promising to clean up waste
and fraud, but once in office, find there isn't as much
to clean up as many people think.  (There is some, but
the combined efforts of previous generations of
politicians have reduced it substantially from where it
otherwise would be.)


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed May 26 16:09:09 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI]
 =?utf-8?b?VHJhbnNodW1hbmlzbSwgUHN5V2FyIGFuZCBCLkUuUC7igJlz?=
 =?utf-8?b?IOKAnEltbWEgQmXigJ0=?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFD2DBE.5000203@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <781413.24943.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 5/26/10, AlgaeNymph <algaenymph at gmail.com> wrote:
Much of the
rhetoric is about "evil elites," the sort of thing we've never given a
good answer too beyond "it'll get cheaper eventually" and
"it'll trickle down eventually." (Emphasis mine.)
Given history, it will be an elite who first gets this technology.? The question is,
which elite?

Suppressing it will only work locally (say, in the USA and Europe), if it works at all
(which there is much reason to doubt).? Other parts of the world will not suppress it.
Like it or not, the technology is coming - but any tech can be used for good or evil.
(Even atomic bombs resulted in more peace than war, terrifying though the peace
was at times, mainly because of who built them and when.)

Therefore, do you try to suppress the tech and guarantee that someone else, with
moral values far different from your own, is the first to master it (if maybe a bit
delayed)?? Or do you make sure your side is the one to get the genie out of the
bottle first?

Some would say that buying even 1 more year without this technology is worth
sacrificing everything that comes afterward.? They tend not to dwell on this
being because they won't be experiencing as much of it: it's 1 less year of their
lives.? One might point out to them that, even if they plan to die and not care
about what happens afterward, we plan to extend our lives - living right alongside
our children and our childrens' children, doing our part to make sure our continued
existence at least does not burden them (better technology, expanding the
carrying capacity of humanity's residences, and so on) - so we bloody well DO
care about the indefinite future, and therefore object to their short sighted, selfish
irresponsibility.

(This, also, is part of why they object to significant life extension, or even outright
curing death.? They'll be forced to care about the future because they'll be living in
it, and they are uncomfortable with that responsibility.? How dare we make them
give a damn?)
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed May 26 16:43:47 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:43:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinLBJyX-GSNH9T-7gw_TptslKRA_b8vAPcO9HX8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:08 AM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> Obviously would it be positive for a single entity to gain

etc.

### Sondre, you did not comment on the article I linked to, which
describes a research project (not a review of other literature) whose
results support the statement that patents are efficient (in the
economic meaning of the term) in stimulating innovation, compared to
the absence of patenting. You did not comment on whether you agree
with the premises (stated in the abstract), you did not comment
whether you agree with the methodology, or whether you trust/distrust
the veracity of the presentation (whether the scientist lied through
her teeth or told the truth about the data she saw and what she did
with it).

Let me reiterate: I am completely uninterested in theorizing about the
ideology of patent law, or exchanging links to various diatribes. I am
interested in reviewing primary research literature either supporting
or disproving the notion that patent law is economically efficient
through stimulating innovation, compared to either absence of
intellectual property protection or protection through other
mechanisms.

Please feel free to dissect the article I provided (not as a
definitive argument of course, just for starters). Once you do that,
you can cite literature in favor of your ideas about patenting, and I
will do my best to analyze it.

Rafal



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed May 26 16:21:19 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:21:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <859759.36442.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 5/26/10, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
So then we have X and Y, who are both putting a lot of money into R&D to develop CRM products. They both spend one billion dollars, a total of two billion. To cover these costs, they would need to price their products in the market to earn money back on their investments in R&D. So the market has to pay a minimum of two billion dollars for CRM software.

If no protection was possible and Y could "copy-cat" some of the ideas and innovations from X, then we potentially could cut the R&D costs in half, one billion dollars (for the point of the argument let's make it half, though would probably be higher). This means the two companies have used only one billion dollars to create two competing CRM software products, which the market only have to pay in total one billion dollars for. This means the market spend less money on CRM licenses and the two companies probably would earn more money since software generally are cheap anyway so they wouldn't lower their prices 50%.Problem is, that's not what happens.

If Y could copy-cat, then Y would copy-cat everything it could, and only charge
to cover its own expenses.? X has spent maybe $900 million (copying a bit of Y's
progress), while Y has spent maybe $100 million (it had to do a bit of work).? The
market only covers that $100 million; it has no reason to buy X's relatively
overpriced wares to cover the $900 million.

Great deal for the market!? Not bad for Y.? X gets screwed royally.

Along comes Z, with an idea for even better product.? It will take $1 billion to
develop.? Does it do this?

No.? It sees what happened to X, and knows the same will happen to it.? So it
has no reason to proceed: innovation is not profitable.? No amount of whining,
pleading, or cajoling that the market will get another great deal will change the
fact that Z knows it will get screwed royally, and Z only cares about Z (as it
should be).

Maybe, 10 or 20 years later, someone else figures out how to do the same
thing on much less.? But that's 10 or 20 years that the market literally doesn't
know what it's missing.? Notice that the maximum length of patents is 20
years - and that's assuming their holders pay to renew it that long.

That, in a nutshell, is the case for patents.
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed May 26 16:55:33 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:55:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201005261655.o4QGtd2C018546@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Sondre wrote:

>Company X and Y are in the business of developing CRM software. 
>Company X is first on the market and patent-protects some of it's 
>innovations. This means Company Y is under the constant treat of 
>being in violation of Company Y's patents as patents are generally 
>very broad in their descriptions.

Hyggelig a treffe deg.

I have a software patent myself, for something that was genuinely
difficult to invent. One of my insights is now central to the functioning
of many billions of dollars of e-commerce. (The patent is owned by
HP which, as far as I know, has made little effort to reap any benefit
from it. I got a $100 dinner for two.)

That particular insight is obvious in hindsight, and there are very
few alternatives to it.

My biggest problems with software patents are that sometimes they
cover really obvious ideas that have a century of prior art (as do
several of Amazon's patents), that it's a nightmare to figure out if
there's a patent that covers what you want to do, and it's tedious and
expensive to license.

(I asked about patents at a software presidents meeting once. Whether
you should patent anything or whether you should investigate whether
your product infringes on an existing patent. The unanimous advice
for struggling entrepreneurs was to ignore both questions. Focus on
getting product out the door and sales. If your product makes a bundle,
you can worry about patents then. If it flops, you'll never have to.)


-- David.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed May 26 16:53:15 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] how science publication works
In-Reply-To: <4BFAD2EC.6020703@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <827914.35828.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 5/24/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> And would it have killed these authors to email me their
> ?results?
> prior to publishing them, so I could?ve enlightened them
> before they
> committed themselves to their errors in print, thus
> avoiding all this
> pain?

Notice the end result: their false debunking winds up accepted.
So, yes, it would have been of less benefit to them to do that.

Not all who claim to be scientists are concerned with the truth.

(This is why I prefer applied sciences - technology, and
bringing inventions to the market.  The market has plenty of
"reviewers" - customers - who will call a spade a spade, and see
right through competitors' efforts to call it a turnip.)



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed May 26 18:33:33 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 11:33:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <4BFCFACB.2080808@mac.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFCFACB.2080808@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZZanGvBtPCiPtwzGo5dEANeb5hui3SFhEH-B8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:41 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

> Now, give me a direct link to a preferably peer-reviewed publication
> on the subject of efficiency of patent law, and we could have a
> discussion.
>
>
> What exactly would be valid measurements of or criteria for this
> "efficiency"???? What kinds of peers in what areas?
>
### Efficiency: There are two measures that appear to be most
appropriate in this context:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaldor-Hicks_efficiency

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_efficiency

and we can discuss why I think so, if you wish.

Peers - reviewers of mainstream economics literature, possibly to a
lesser extent law journals. Do you want me to list which journals I
deem to be mainstream?

Rafal



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed May 26 18:42:28 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 11:42:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <4BFCF9F6.3070500@mac.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1ff801cafc29$8662a1b0$9327e510$@bjellas.com>
	<100719.650.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BFCF9F6.3070500@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikbApVTe0g9knE3rEgC3U7sWLcVqUZWmOXYK0YH@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:37 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

? So far
> I am pretty opposed to most types of gene patents, especially ones that
> include little or no real invention.

### U.S. Patent Act (found in Title 35 of the United States Code)
specifically requires that patents can only be issued on inventions
(see http://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/100.html). A patent cannot be
issued under US law on a non-invention. Gene patents are issued after
examiners at the US PTO determine the presence of an invention,
therefore your objection pertains to either an empty set, or patents
issued in contravention of the law.

Rafal



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed May 26 19:19:17 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:19:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikbApVTe0g9knE3rEgC3U7sWLcVqUZWmOXYK0YH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1ff801cafc29$8662a1b0$9327e510$@bjellas.com>
	<100719.650.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BFCF9F6.3070500@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikbApVTe0g9knE3rEgC3U7sWLcVqUZWmOXYK0YH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <891072.36976.qm@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think she meant that she -- not the US PTO -- believes these include "little or no real invention."

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 2:42:28 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:37 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

? So far
> I am pretty opposed to most types of gene patents, especially ones that
> include little or no real invention.

### U.S. Patent Act (found in Title 35 of the United States Code)
specifically requires that patents can only be issued on inventions
(see http://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/100.html). A patent cannot be
issued under US law on a non-invention. Gene patents are issued after
examiners at the US PTO determine the presence of an invention,
therefore your objection pertains to either an empty set, or patents
issued in contravention of the law.

Rafal
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed May 26 19:13:55 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <336660.38961.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Which 12 countries? And did they control for other variables? (I'm not attacking the article -- which I haven't read in toto -- but just wondering because one might choose 12 countries to get any empirical results one wants -- provided there are enough confounding variables. After all, you wouldn't want to pit, say, America and Britain circa 1870 against, say, Tripoli and Tibet.)

Also, are these fairs the best measure, especially since they would be showcases for marketing, no? In other words, the thing being measured here might not be innovation per se -- and what is a good measure of innovation anyhow? -- but merely 

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
To: Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 5:12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> You are exactly right regarding searching for any topic on the web ;-)
> Which is why I'm asking "who and what" is the reason for your statement:
> "Clearly, yes, patenting stimulates innovation"
> The content I read on patents does not clearly say that patent stimulates,
> on the?contrary, I must be reading the wrong material.
> Check for instance "Against Intellectual Property" by?Stephan
> Kinsella:?http://www.scribd.com/doc/7511095/Against-Intellectual-Property-by-Stephan-Kinsella-

### OK, let's start at the beginning:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4132712

Countries without strong patent protection did not produce innovations
except in the industrial branches where profits from innovation could
be realized without patent protection.

Rafal

PS. I notice you are linking to polemics devoted to a specific point
of view, not to original research aiming at gaining understanding of
the issue at hand.

I am extremely resistant to being swayed by polemics.

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From jesusnuda at yahoo.com  Wed May 26 19:01:45 2010
From: jesusnuda at yahoo.com (Jesus Nude)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:01:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
Message-ID: <306555.32022.qm@web114512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>









? [don't know if this has been posted to Exl before]
__________________________________

Newsweek, May 24th
by Sharom Begley and Mary Carmichael
-----------------------------------------------------------
>From 1996 to 1999, the U.S. food and Drug Administration approved 157 new drugs. In the comparable period a decade later?that is, from 2006 to 2009?the agency approved 74. Not among them were any cures, or even meaningfully effective treatments, for Alzheimer's disease, lung or pancreatic cancer, Parkinson's disease, Huntington's disease, or a host of other afflictions that destroy lives.
Also not among the new drugs approved was A5G27, or whatever more mellifluous name a drug company might give it. In 2004 Hynda Kleinman and her colleagues at the National Institutes of Health discovered that this molecule, called a peptide, blocks the metastasis of melanoma to the lungs and other organs, at least in lab animals. The peptide also blocks angiogenesis, the creation of blood vessels that sustain metastatic tumors, they reported six years ago in the journal Cancer Research. Unfortunately, A5G27 has not been developed beyond that discovery. Kleinman was working at NIH's dental-research institute, and, she says, "there was not a lot of support for work in cancer there at the time. They weren't interested." She did not have the expertise to develop the peptide herself. "I continued doing cancer research on it, but I couldn't take it to the next level because I'm not a cancer specialist," she says. "I was trained as a chemist."

No one is saying A5G27 would have cured metastatic cancers, which account for some 90 percent of all cancer deaths; the chance of FDA approval for a newly discovered molecule, targeting a newly discovered disease mechanism, is a dismal 0.6 percent. Diseases are complicated, and nature fights every human attempt to mess with what she has wrought. But frustration is growing with how few seemingly promising discoveries in basic biomedical science lead to something that helps patients, especially in what is supposed to be a golden age of genetics, neuroscience, and biomedical research in general.
>From 1998 to 2003, the budget of the NIH?which supports such research at universities and medical centers as well as within its own labs in Bethesda, Md.?doubled, to $27 billion, and is now $31 billion. There is very little downside, for a president or Congress, in appeasing patient-advocacy groups as well as voters by supporting biomedical research. But judging by the only criterion that matters to patients and taxpayers?not how many interesting discoveries about cells or genes or synapses have been made, but how many treatments for diseases the money has bought?the return on investment to the American taxpayer has been approximately as satisfying as the AIG bailout. "Basic research is healthy in America," says John Adler, a Stanford University professor who invented the CyberKnife, a robotic device that treats cancer with precise, high doses of radiation. "But patients aren't benefiting. Our understanding of diseases is greater than ever. But
 academics think, 'We had three papers in Science or Nature, so that must have been [NIH] money well spent.'?"


More and more policymakers and patients are therefore asking, where are the cures? The answer is that potential cures, or at least treatments, are stuck in the chasm between a scientific discovery and the doctor's office: what's been called the valley of death.
The barriers to exploiting fundamental discoveries begin with science labs themselves. In academia and the NIH, the system of honors, grants, and tenure rewards basic discoveries (a gene for Parkinson's! a molecule that halts metastasis!), not the grunt work that turns such breakthroughs into drugs. "Colleagues tell me they're very successful getting NIH grants because their experiments are elegant and likely to yield fundamental discoveries, even if they have no prospect of producing something that helps human diseases," says cancer biologist Raymond Hohl of the University of Iowa. In 2000, for instance, scientists at four separate labs discovered a gene called ABCC6, which, when mutated, causes PXE (pseudoxanthoma elasticum), a rare genetic disease in which the skin, eyes, heart, and other soft tissue become calcified?rock hard. By 2005, scientists had genetically engineered lab mice to develop the disease. The next step would be what's called
 screening, in which scientists would laboriously test one molecule after another to see which had any effect on ABCC6. But "academic scientists aren't capable of creating assays [test systems] to do that," says Sharon Terry, CEO of the Genetic Alliance, which supports research on rare genetic diseases (her children have PXE). "It's time-consuming drudgery and takes an expertise that hasn't trickled down to the typical academic scientist." Ten years later, there is still no cure for PXE.
Should a lab be so fortunate as to discover a molecule that cures a disease in a lab rat, the next step is to test its toxicity and efficacy in more lab animals. Without that, no company?for companies, not academic scientists, actually develop drugs?will consider buying the rights to it. "A company wants to know, how specific and toxic is the molecule?" says Kenneth Chahine, an expert in patent law at the University of Utah. "It might work great in a mouse, but will it make a rat keel over? Doing this less fun research is not something an academic lab is interested in. The incentive driving academic labs is grants for creative, innovative research, and you're not going to get one to learn how much of a compound kills a rat."
How this culture works against finding treatments can be seen in Huntington's disease, a single-gene, fatal illness. "We have something like 300 targets [genes, pathways, and other mechanisms thought to cause the disease] and almost as many theories," says an official at a disease foundation, who asked not to be identified so as not to anger scientists he has to work with. "The way science careers are structured, big labs get established based on a theory or a target or a mechanism, and the last thing they want to do is disprove it and give up what they're working on. That's why we have so many targets. We'd like people to work on moving them from a 'maybe' to a 'no,' but it's bad for careers to rule things out: that kind of study tends not to get published, so doing that doesn't advance people's careers."



?For scientists who are willing to push past these obstacles, the next one is the patent system. When Robert Sackstein was a bone-marrow-transplant surgeon in the 1980s, he noticed that fewer than 5 percent of the transplanted blood stem cells reached their target in a patient's marrow. He therefore decided to study how cells navigate, what beacons they follow. A decade-long search led to the discovery of a molecule on the surface of blood stem cells that turns out to be the master molecule used by those cells to home in on any site in the body.

Sackstein named the molecule HCELL. If stem cells were tagged with HCELL, he thought, they would make a beeline for the correct tissue?say, to regenerate bones in patients with osteoporosis. In 2008 he and colleagues announced in a paper in Nature Medicine that they had managed to do just that: when he injected human bone-forming stem cells tagged with HCELL into mice, the cells headed for the mice's bones and began forming human bone there. HCELL-tagged stem cells, in other words, could be the long-sought cure for osteoporosis, as well as other diseases that might be treatable with stem cells.
But because Sackstein had described HCELL in a scientific paper, the U.S. patent office told him it was rejecting his application. Ten years of appeals have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorney fees. Sackstein fervently believes his discovery deserves a patent, and it was granted one in Europe and Japan. "You have to persevere," he says. "I can't let it go, because I think the impact on patients could be so great. We've cured osteoporosis in mice." But without patent protection, no company will develop HCELL for people, even in Europe or Japan. For a multinational drug company to go forward, it needs patent protection in the U.S. as well.
If a discovery is patented, the next step is for the university or NIH technology licensing office to find a commercial partner to develop its professors' discoveries. (The institution where a scientist works, not the scientist herself, owns the intellectual-property rights to discoveries, and thus the exclusive right to license it.) Licensing typically involves upfront fees, plus a promised share of royalties should the molecule become a commercial drug. One biotech startup in the Midwest has been trying for three years to license a discovery made when some of its founders worked at the NIH. Vascular surgeon Jeffrey Isenberg, now at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and colleagues were studying how the gas nitric oxide promotes blood flow. They discovered a pathway that inhibits nitric oxide and thus impedes blood flow. By blocking the blocker?to football fans, adding an extra guard to your offensive line?the scientists got nitric oxide
 to open blood vessels again and increase blood flow, at least in lab animals. The molecule that works this magic is a protein called thrombospondin-1, or TSP1, suggesting that this particular offensive guard might be a potent drug for saving heart-attack victims; restoring blood flow in patients with severe diabetes, in which impaired blood flow leads to gangrene; and treating hypertension.
Unfortunately, attempts to negotiate the rights to develop this discovery were Kafkaesque. NIH's licensing office demanded payments that the startup?which, unlike the Pfizers of the world, has zero revenue?couldn't make. "NIH has no skin in the game, so they have no inducement to work with a company" to get a discovery from the lab to patients, says Eric Gulve, president of BioGenerator, a nonprofit in St. Louis that advises and provides seed money for biotech startups. "There isn't a sense of urgency." A top lab chief at the NIH laments that when scientists like himself push the licensing office to move a discovery toward commercialization, "it's just another piece of paper to them." Without the license, the startup struggles to stay alive. In its defense, Mark Rohrbaugh, the director of NIH's technology-transfer office, notes that it licensed 215 discoveries last year (though that is down from the 2004?2008 average of 273 a year, with a high of
 313 in 2005). "I think we do incredibly well accommodating the needs of a company," says Rohrbaugh. "We have even linked milestone payments [made when a company achieves a goal such as starting a clinical trial] to a company raising money. The last thing we want to do is slow down the science."

If a discovery is licensed, the licensee then has to raise enough money to test the compound's toxicity (does it kill the lab rats? give them seizures?), to figure out how to make it in quantity and with uniform quality, to test the drug in larger lab animals such as dogs, and then to test it in people. Because large drug companies have been merging and retrenching (the industry laid off 90,000 people last year) and have become more interested in buying early-stage research than in doing it themselves, this role has been falling to biotech firms, which are smaller and poorer. It is at this step?turning a discovery into something that can be manufactured and that is safe and effective?that the valley of death has gotten dramatically more fatal over the last few years. "NIH grants don't support the kind of research needed to turn a discovery into a drug," says Gulve, so the money has to come from elsewhere. Traditionally, that has been venture capital.
 But "over the last four or five years VC funding for early-stage drug discovery has decreased dramatically," says Utah's Chahine. "You used to be able to go public, raising millions of dollars, based on a couple of genes in a rat. Now you can't even get a venture capitalist's business card for that."
Instead, VCs?essentially the only source of money to move preliminary discoveries forward?are demanding that startups prove themselves far more than in the past. Francis "Duke" Creighton had a eureka moment a few years ago: use magnets to amplify the effects of drugs that dissolve stroke-causing clots. He founded Pulse Therapeutics to develop the discovery, in which tiny magnetic particles would be mixed with a clot-busting drug, and a magnet would be used to get more of the drug to its target. He had enough money to do experiments for six months in vitro, "then we ran out," says Creighton. "Venture-capital firms said, 'Show me animal data and we'll talk,' but running animal experiments would cost $300,000 at the least." No money, no animal studies; no animal studies, no money. BioGenerator helped Creighton raise $100,000, but he's still short of what he needs.
Human testing is even more expensive?tens of millions of dollars?so commercial calculations stalk the decision like Banquo's ghost. Research funded by the Multiple Myeloma Re--search Foundation at a small biotech led to a promising new drug for multiple myeloma, a cancer of plasma cells in bones. But the firm was bought by a large drug company that decided against testing the drug in that cancer, calculating that the payoff would be greater if it could be shown to work against the big four (breast, lung, prostate, colon) or leukemias. "It's our feeling that if it had been tested in myeloma only, it would have moved faster," says Louise Perkins, chief scientific officer of the foundation.
If we are serious about rescuing potential new drugs from the valley of death, then academia, the NIH, and disease foundations will have to change how they operate. That is happening, albeit slowly. Private foundations such as the MMRF, the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson's Research, and the Myelin Repair Foundation (for multiple sclerosis) have veered away from the NIH model of "here's some money; go discover something." Instead, they are managing and directing scientists more closely, requiring them to share data before it is published, cooperate, and do the nonsexy development work required after a discovery is made.

For instance, the Chordoma Foundation, which supports research into that rare cancer, found that there was only one decent chordoma cell line in the whole world?in a freezer in Germany?and it hadn't been used for new research since 2001. The foundation obtained the legal rights to it and distributed it to some two dozen researchers, jump-starting studies that otherwise would never have been done. The cell line is being used to, among other things, screen existing drugs to see if they might work against chordoma. 
Forcing that kind of cooperation among turf-jealous academics could break a lot of logjams. "There are thousands of researchers working on exactly the same thing," says Bruce Bloom, whose Partnership for Cures foundation supports research on new uses for existing drugs. "Under the current system they cannot and will not collaborate for fear that it will jeopardize funding, patent protection, and publication. Look at the progress open-source software has made in IT. Imagine the progress open-source research could make in biomedicine."
Perhaps the greatest sea change is that "more academics are starting to ask, 'How can I get funding to turn this discovery into something?' so universities are encouraging the creation of drug-development groups," says Jeff Ives, president of Satori Pharmaceuticals, a biotech in Cambridge, Mass., that is searching for Alzheimer's drugs. "The ivory-tower separation from the real world isn't acceptable anymore."
Stanford Medical School realized that. Although the NIH has increased support for research intended to help patients, points out Daria Mochly-Rosen of Stanford, there is still very little funding for steps such as testing a compound's toxicity in several species of lab animals, synthesizing the molecule, and scaling up that synthesis. "What we lack in academia is an understanding that these steps can be intellectually interesting, too," says Mochly-Rosen. To foster that, she founded Spark four years ago. It scrutinizes discoveries from Stanford scientists that have not been licensed to a company and, with industry input, identifies 20 per year that have promise. The inventor is taught the basics of drug development and gets funding support to carry out the "drudgery."
In perhaps the clearest sign that patience among even the staunchest supporters of biomedical research is running thin, the health-care-reform bill that became law in March includes a Cures Ac-celeration Network that Sen. Arlen Specter, a longtime supporter of biomedical research, sponsored. Located at the NIH, the network would give grants ($500 million is authorized this year) to biotech companies, academic researchers, and advocacy groups to help promising discoveries cross the valley of death. It may or may not make a difference. But something had better, and soon.


      
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From algaenymph at gmail.com  Wed May 26 19:46:57 2010
From: algaenymph at gmail.com (AlgaeNymph)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:46:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZZanGvBtPCiPtwzGo5dEANeb5hui3SFhEH-B8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>	<4BFCFACB.2080808@mac.com>
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Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> ### Efficiency: There are two measures that appear to be most
> appropriate in this context:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaldor-Hicks_efficiency
>
> and
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_efficiency
>
> and we can discuss why I think so, if you wish.
>   
Sure, as long as you give the simple English versions of each type.  
Wikipedia articles assume readers have nothing better to do than go on 
wiki walks.
> Peers - reviewers of mainstream economics literature, possibly to a
> lesser extent law journals. Do you want me to list which journals I
> deem to be mainstream?
>   
Again, sure.


From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu May 27 01:26:58 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:26:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
 =?windows-1252?q?Transhumanism=2C_PsyWar_and_B=2EE=2EP=2E?=
 =?windows-1252?q?=92s_=93Imma_Be=94?=
In-Reply-To: <4BFCFE9F.8090007@gmail.com>
References: <4BFB9F2C.1090106@gmail.com>
	<747989.76375.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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	<4BFCFE9F.8090007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFDCA62.80005@mac.com>

AlgaeNymph wrote:
> Paul Hobbs wrote:
>> Obviously, the author and most of the commenters are somewhat off the
>> rails
> Somewhat?  LVB says that H+ " is a /highly organized and well financed 
> movement/."

Yeah.  Where do I sign up for my funds from this "well financed 
movement"?  :)

- s



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From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu May 27 02:20:45 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:20:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
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	<4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
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Message-ID: <4BFDD6FD.8020000@mac.com>

Sondre Bjell?s wrote:
> Obviously would it be positive for a single entity to gain 
> government-controlled monopoly on anything it can sell, that's pretty 
> certain. It is also very certain that this has negative consequence on 
> the society as a whole.

That is an on the face prejudicial way of saying it.  If X puts together 
the money, resources to R&D something new to market then X gets to say 
under what terms they will sell it that the market will bear (people are 
willing to pay) and under what conditions they will or will not divulge 
the innards of how exactly X works.    Do you want to claim that somehow 
everyone on earth has the right to know all those innards just because 
it would be convenient for them if they did?   Or that everyone has a 
right to X's production for whatever they wish to pay including for 
free?   

If not, exactly how would you arrange things so it is possible for X to 
actually turn a profit, which is to receive more value than the R&D of 
the product costs?   Do you think that is greedy?  If X does not receive 
more value then X has no more to invest in producing new values beyond 
what it started with.  It cannot grow to produce and offer more value to 
the world.   

In light of this why wouldn't X deserve/need some greater rights to 
control of production and licensing of its product for some period of 
time?  Of course X could just keep all the innards of the product a 
trade secret, at least for long enough to recoup costs.  But then those 
that could build other good and valuable things on that tech don't get 
to know about it or use it on any terms and reinvent something sort of 
like it.    Is this better?  Are you sure?

>
> Certain types of organizations and products probably wouldn't sell as 
> well in a society without patent laws, but you would most likely have 
> other products and organizations which would serve other purposes and 
> markets. Nothing beats the free market, and it's not a positive trend 
> we're seeing around the global with big governments protecting failing 
> corporations, some companies and products are just prone to fail 
> sooner or later.

Government bailouts are totally separable from patents and other forms 
of IP so let's not conflate them.   The Free Market requires sound 
economics and property law.  The above is part of what is required in 
order for producers to produce in a self-sustaining and increasing 
capacity. 
>
> It's a philosophical discussion whether "intellectual property" 
> deserves to exist in the manner it does today, but that's a whole 
> another discussion.

It is indeed a philosophical (and particularly economic) discussion.  It 
cannot be fully avoided if we are to talk about this area 
intelligibly.   Otherwise we would likely just be posturing without an 
agreed basis to a large extent.

>
> With this said, I would just like to add an example to your question:
>
> Company X and Y are in the business of developing CRM software. 
> Company X is first on the market and patent-protects some of it's 
> innovations.
Which means that company Y can either license them or show they had 
prior art.  If they filed provisional patents early as is cheap and easy 
to do, they are protected from any coercion by company X's patents in 
the same area.   But remember that software is a bad example as many 
agree that software should not be patented.   Copyright law plus trade 
secrets (what you make open or not) are sufficient for what is needed 
there.  So I am going to act as if instead of sofware, X and Y are 
working on creating a hot new spaceplane or some other material product.


> This means Company Y is under the constant treat of being in violation 
> of Company Y's patents as patents are generally very broad in their 
> descriptions.
Patents should be much more specific.  But yeah, if X and Y are both 
working on a particular kind of revolutionary space plane and one gets 
there first the other loses out.  Even without patents the first entrant 
into the market with a viable product is likely to take the lion's share 
of the business.   Does their entry mean that they must divulge their 
product details or that it is better for everyone they keep them secret, 
at least long enough to recoup the R&D cost and a bit?    Unclear.   

Yes, you want specificity,  the proper areas for patent and you want 
reasonable  term lengths and preferably non-discriminatory licensing 
terms.    This last keeps patents from being used to shut off 
competition entirely.

> Hence, X is stifling Y's ability to innovate and bring competing 
> products to the market.
Not really.  They just beat them to one area.   If licensing terms are 
non-discriminatory Y can still introduce new improvements or lower 
manufacturing cost, better service, derivative products and so on.

> Then again, you could argue that Y should pay royalty fee to X since 
> they where there first, but remember that two inventions can happen at 
> the same time independently but only the first guy to patent it wins. 
> Patent laws makes it possible for any holder to actually crush a 
> competitor completely and make it impossible for them to actually sell 
> competing products.
If they had prior documented work then X's patent can be successfully 
challenged.   If X threatens them for patent infringement they can show 
X the documents and if they are sound it is in X's interest to not bring 
the matter to trial assuming Y doesn't see a full court challeng as 
worth their trouble.   Patent laws definitely need reform.  I am not 
clear that patents as such serve no useful purpose for the economy and 
society or are totally unjustified in all forms and circumstances.

>
> So then we have X and Y, who are both putting a lot of money into R&D 
> to develop CRM products. They both spend one billion dollars, a total 
> of two billion. To cover these costs, they would need to price their 
> products in the market to earn money back on their investments in R&D. 
> So the market has to pay a minimum of two billion dollars for CRM 
> software.

The market doesn't have to pay twice as much just because two companies 
spent that much at all.  The market values that product for however much 
in total that it values it.  If it values it less than the company or 
companies spent to produce it then tough.  That is the risk of 
business.   Hey, if it costs A to invent, manufacture and market 
something and you do not recoup these cost and more over time then you 
will not remain in business or not in that line of business.   Note the 
market pays this amount over the effective life cycle of the product.  
It does not have to pay it at once.    Also, many products are loss 
leaders.  They are sold or give away at a loss to get customer loyalty 
or a customer base that brings in enough revenue to keep the business 
afloat.  
>
> If no protection was possible and Y could "copy-cat" some of the ideas 
> and innovations from X, then we potentially could cut the R&D costs in 
> half, one billion dollars (for the point of the argument let's make it 
> half, though would probably be higher).
So what?  Does each company have the right to their own work product or 
not?  That it might be convenient or cheaper if they both could see into 
each other's plans, designs and operations doesn't mean that 
anything/everything else is wrong or bad.    It would be very convenient 
if I could use everything ever produced for free to do whatever my thing 
is.  But that is not the way reality works or can work this side of 
santa machines at least and perhaps beyond.

Also X and Y, realizing they have a lot of common needs, could 
collaborate on those common needs or even create and lead an Open Source 
effort (going back to a software example a sec) to address those common 
needs.  

> This means the two companies have used only one billion dollars to 
> create two competing CRM software products, which the market only have 
> to pay in total one billion dollars for. This means the market spend 
> less money on CRM licenses and the two companies probably would earn 
> more money since software generally are cheap anyway so they wouldn't 
> lower their prices 50%.
> Would company X do the initial investments in R&D if they couldn't 
> protect their innovations? My argument is yes, they would. Wherever 
> there is money to be made, there will be investments. Would the 
> product be different? Yes, probably. Would the product be developed in 
> more incremental manner? Yes, probably. Is this good for the 
> consumers? Yes, very likely.
>
> -- 
>
> Regarding one of the links mentioned on this thread, I seriously doubt 
> patents is the reason for SAP's problematic issues. I have worked at 
> big organizations with large SAP-implementations, it's in no way 
> related to patents that they are having problems now.

SAP got in early to this space, did very effective marketing and became 
the elephant in that room.  It was a safe bet in large IT especially to 
plug in SAP for a while just as IBM used to be a safe bet to plug in.   
But a lot of the SAP stack suffers imho from what a lot of first movers 
suffer over time.  It has too many outdated parts that everything else 
has too many dependencies upon and too large a legacy installed base to 
stay nimble and up-to-date in all areas.  But this is good news.  As the 
old growth reaches its zenith and starts its decay there is food, 
opportunity and room for new growth.   Also many a company has made a 
living trailing behind SAP adding value or satisfying things that SAP 
did not.


> SAP consultants have generally been very expensive and very lucrative, 
> with innovations in the open source space and availability of cheaper 
> resources from countries such as India and China, few companies are 
> willing to pay the premium and costly investments that SAP represents.
Yep.  You can be expensive when demand is high and viable alternatives 
few.  Not thereafter.

> SAPs recent change in view on patents is in my persona opinion, just a 
> way to gain money where they no longer are able to stay up-to-date and 
> be a choice for 
> customers: http://techdirt.com/articles/20060118/0256239_F.shtml

I agree that outgrowth should not be able to prevent new growth by 
salting the earth with patents.   At least not with strong restrictions 
on time they are valid and reasonable licensing terms.  If a product has 
been out for years without patent protection then I don't think it 
should be allowed to patent it after everyone has done their best to 
figure out how to do the equivalent as well or better.  
>
> PS: We don't have software patents (which are really process patents) 
> in Norway, and we've had some pretty big innovations that was very 
> costly. Opera Software (browser), Funcom (games), Qt (open source 
> framework) and FAST (search engine). Qt was bought by Nokia and FAST 
> was bought by Microsoft.

I very much agree that software patents are a blight that should be 
removed.  BTW, I noticed recently that on many economic indicators 
Norway is really booming.  Among others it has budget surpluses, little 
debt and a quite positive trade balance.  It is really looking good.  It 
makes me sorry I didn't take a Norwegian friend who wanted to make me a 
kept woman while I finished schooling if I would go back to Norway with 
him up on the offer.  :)

- samantha



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu May 27 10:42:42 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 12:42:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] essentialism and/or continuity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimJ0DoB1CKQdVSyOvVuUfP67h1FlctHU36dJG3X@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274616004.7017.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<707387.4362.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinMOMgnp4GxrGSgmbbki1mfOZbLV7i0i8kMJAKs@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <AANLkTimOup8CMQyJNGl06iDD3TLZ6Ucye9bz-rZdxpVk@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 May 2010 03:25, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 May 2010 20:58, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> To play the devil's advocate, everybody would feel he or she is the
>> "same person" absolutely in any circumstance.
>
> Not under any circumstances. I don't feel I am the same person as you,
> but I feel that I am the same person as my self of a year ago. I also
> would not feel I was the same person as an exact copy in the room with
> me, and I would not feel I was the same person as my self of a year
> ago if I could go back in time and meet him.

Let me rephrase. Everybody cannot but feel that they are themselves.

> It's difficult to come up
> with a consistent philosophical account of selves.

Yes, that is exactly my point, and I suspect that the reason is that
no underlying hard reality correspond to the concept of identity,
which behaves as if it were simply a social construct (and for all
practical purposes actual is).

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May 27 10:19:27 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:19:27 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Cybernetics expert infects himself
In-Reply-To: <mailman.521.1274902895.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <517822.75531.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

No-one's posted this yet, so I thought I'd share this story of one of Reading university's researchers deliberately infecting his experimental implant to demonstrate how they can suffer viruses too. He makes the point that digitally controlled pacemakers *really* ought to fit basic security features to prevent a malware attack.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100526/tod-scientist-infected-with-computer-vir-870a197.html

Dr Mark Gasson, a cybernetics expert at the University of Reading, has had a computer chip implanted in his hand.

The chip is programmed to open security doors to his lab - and ensure only he is able to switch on and use his mobile phone.

But Dr Gasson deliberately infected the chip with a computer virus, which was then automatically transmitted to the lab security system.

"Once the system is infected, anybody accessing the building with their passcard would be infected too," he told Sky News.

The virus on his chip is benign. But malicious computer code could give criminals access to a building.

Dr Gasson says his experiment also exposes the vulnerability of chips now routinely implanted in patients.

Heart pacemakers contain mini-computers that control the heartbeat, and communicate with doctors via a special reader held against the skin.

But if a virus was transmitted to the device which stopped it working properly, the consequences for the patient could be fatal.

"The devices will have to start to use security encryption," said Dr Gasson.

"Medical devices should have some kind of password protection as well. They're basic security precautions. It's surprising these devices don't have them already."


      



From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Thu May 27 11:53:50 2010
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:53:50 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <859759.36442.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
	<859759.36442.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzmO2j3sNfMqTDHBnhfvP4hY42xg2hkhtKo9KR@mail.gmail.com>

I don't disagree with your own practical example, and it is in
a nutshell the case for patents.

What is true though, is that there is great innovations and billions of
dollars invested into R&D that are never patentable, nor patented. It's the
market that drives the need for innovation, not the ability to patent those
innovations. Innovation, creativity and development won't disappear with the
lack of patent protections. I'm not arguing against copyright and trademark
protections (at least not in this discussion ;-))


- Sondre

2010/5/26 Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net>

> --- On *Wed, 5/26/10, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>* wrote:
>
> So then we have X and Y, who are both putting a lot of money into R&D to
> develop CRM products. They both spend one billion dollars, a total of two
> billion. To cover these costs, they would need to price their products in
> the market to earn money back on their investments in R&D. So the market has
> to pay a minimum of two billion dollars for CRM software.
>
> If no protection was possible and Y could "copy-cat" some of the ideas and
> innovations from X, then we potentially could cut the R&D costs in half, one
> billion dollars (for the point of the argument let's make it half, though
> would probably be higher). This means the two companies have used only one
> billion dollars to create two competing CRM software products, which the
> market only have to pay in total one billion dollars for. This means the
> market spend less money on CRM licenses and the two companies probably would
> earn more money since software generally are cheap anyway so they wouldn't
> lower their prices 50%.
>
> Problem is, that's not what happens.
>
> If Y could copy-cat, then Y would copy-cat everything it could, and only
> charge
> to cover its own expenses.  X has spent maybe $900 million (copying a bit
> of Y's
> progress), while Y has spent maybe $100 million (it had to do a bit of
> work).  The
> market only covers that $100 million; it has no reason to buy X's
> relatively
> overpriced wares to cover the $900 million.
>
> Great deal for the market!  Not bad for Y.  X gets screwed royally.
>
> Along comes Z, with an idea for even better product.  It will take $1
> billion to
> develop.  Does it do this?
>
> No.  It sees what happened to X, and knows the same will happen to it.  So
> it
> has no reason to proceed: innovation is not profitable.  No amount of
> whining,
> pleading, or cajoling that the market will get another great deal will
> change the
> fact that Z knows it will get screwed royally, and Z only cares about Z (as
> it
> should be).
>
> Maybe, 10 or 20 years later, someone else figures out how to do the same
> thing on much less.  But that's 10 or 20 years that the market literally
> doesn't
> know what it's missing.  Notice that the maximum length of patents is 20
> years - and that's assuming their holders pay to renew it that long.
>
> That, in a nutshell, is the case for patents.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
Sondre Bjell?s | Senior Solutions Architect | Steria
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Thu May 27 12:00:16 2010
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:00:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <201005261655.o4QGtd2C018546@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
	<201005261655.o4QGtd2C018546@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinHA8USPv34onQsjFBxHsO0Gl4Gj_aBZ2td05xO@mail.gmail.com>

Hyggelig ? treffe likesinnede ;-)

Thanks for your comment, it's valuable and interesting. It's also an
important distinction as you mention, that many inventions in the digital
technology space are rapidly deployed and widely spread in very short time.
What is obvious today might not have been just a year ago.

Everyone else I've heard from says the same thing, it's impossible to care
about patent litigations upfront, but it represents
very dangerous consequences if you step wrong. Microsoft was a few months
back court ordered to stop selling Microsoft Office, obviously still in
court with appeals, but having a patent, even though you where not the first
guy to invent it, gives you the power to stop competitors.


- Sondre

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:55 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> Sondre wrote:
>
>  Company X and Y are in the business of developing CRM software. Company X
>> is first on the market and patent-protects some of it's innovations. This
>> means Company Y is under the constant treat of being in violation of Company
>> Y's patents as patents are generally very broad in their descriptions.
>>
>
> Hyggelig a treffe deg.
>
> I have a software patent myself, for something that was genuinely
> difficult to invent. One of my insights is now central to the functioning
> of many billions of dollars of e-commerce. (The patent is owned by
> HP which, as far as I know, has made little effort to reap any benefit
> from it. I got a $100 dinner for two.)
>
> That particular insight is obvious in hindsight, and there are very
> few alternatives to it.
>
> My biggest problems with software patents are that sometimes they
> cover really obvious ideas that have a century of prior art (as do
> several of Amazon's patents), that it's a nightmare to figure out if
> there's a patent that covers what you want to do, and it's tedious and
> expensive to license.
>
> (I asked about patents at a software presidents meeting once. Whether
> you should patent anything or whether you should investigate whether
> your product infringes on an existing patent. The unanimous advice
> for struggling entrepreneurs was to ignore both questions. Focus on
> getting product out the door and sales. If your product makes a bundle,
> you can worry about patents then. If it flops, you'll never have to.)
>
>
> -- David.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Sondre Bjell?s | Senior Solutions Architect | Steria
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Thu May 27 12:18:07 2010
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:18:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <4BFDD6FD.8020000@mac.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFDD6FD.8020000@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikva0pruQruPl5yoKmoggb-6GZVDx46u6P1gFdQ@mail.gmail.com>

You ask if company X should be allowed to protect their invention in any
possible way: Yes they should! Everyone should try to protect their core
business ideas and implementations. Nobody has the right to corporate or
private information. Trade secrets is an essential part of many businesses
today.

Other than that, we agree on most points. Trade secrets and
copyright/trademark laws are more than enough to protect the software space.
The heart of the discussion is patents on genes, which I would say is
somewhat similar to patent on elements (gold, silver, titanium).

The economy in Norway is scary, it's too good. It makes it hard to export
Norwegian goods and services. Norway was (I think) the first country to
raise it's interests rates, as we have a problem with to many people
investing money into real-estate which doesn't really do good for anyone
economy. Few companies have had to cut down on employees and even less has
closed down. Some companies have used the "crisis" as a mechanism for laying
off unwanted employees, which is really, really hard in this country due to
regulations and laws that protect the employee.

Other than that, it's a great country to live in if you like to take things
easy and don't worry to much. Before we found oil, you wouldn't want to have
lived here. We're close to 4.8 million that lives here now and we have the
worst railroad and road system in whole of Europe ;-)


- Sondre (who's working in the top-office of Norway's largest office
building)


On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:20 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Sondre Bjell?s wrote:
>
>> Obviously would it be positive for a single entity to gain
>> government-controlled monopoly on anything it can sell, that's pretty
>> certain. It is also very certain that this has negative consequence on the
>> society as a whole.
>>
>
> That is an on the face prejudicial way of saying it.  If X puts together
> the money, resources to R&D something new to market then X gets to say under
> what terms they will sell it that the market will bear (people are willing
> to pay) and under what conditions they will or will not divulge the innards
> of how exactly X works.    Do you want to claim that somehow everyone on
> earth has the right to know all those innards just because it would be
> convenient for them if they did?   Or that everyone has a right to X's
> production for whatever they wish to pay including for free?
> If not, exactly how would you arrange things so it is possible for X to
> actually turn a profit, which is to receive more value than the R&D of the
> product costs?   Do you think that is greedy?  If X does not receive more
> value then X has no more to invest in producing new values beyond what it
> started with.  It cannot grow to produce and offer more value to the world.
>
> In light of this why wouldn't X deserve/need some greater rights to control
> of production and licensing of its product for some period of time?  Of
> course X could just keep all the innards of the product a trade secret, at
> least for long enough to recoup costs.  But then those that could build
> other good and valuable things on that tech don't get to know about it or
> use it on any terms and reinvent something sort of like it.    Is this
> better?  Are you sure?
>
>
>
>> Certain types of organizations and products probably wouldn't sell as well
>> in a society without patent laws, but you would most likely have other
>> products and organizations which would serve other purposes and markets.
>> Nothing beats the free market, and it's not a positive trend we're seeing
>> around the global with big governments protecting failing corporations, some
>> companies and products are just prone to fail sooner or later.
>>
>
> Government bailouts are totally separable from patents and other forms of
> IP so let's not conflate them.   The Free Market requires sound economics
> and property law.  The above is part of what is required in order for
> producers to produce in a self-sustaining and increasing capacity.
>
>>
>> It's a philosophical discussion whether "intellectual property" deserves
>> to exist in the manner it does today, but that's a whole another discussion.
>>
>
> It is indeed a philosophical (and particularly economic) discussion.  It
> cannot be fully avoided if we are to talk about this area intelligibly.
> Otherwise we would likely just be posturing without an agreed basis to a
> large extent.
>
>
>
>> With this said, I would just like to add an example to your question:
>>
>> Company X and Y are in the business of developing CRM software. Company X
>> is first on the market and patent-protects some of it's innovations.
>>
> Which means that company Y can either license them or show they had prior
> art.  If they filed provisional patents early as is cheap and easy to do,
> they are protected from any coercion by company X's patents in the same
> area.   But remember that software is a bad example as many agree that
> software should not be patented.   Copyright law plus trade secrets (what
> you make open or not) are sufficient for what is needed there.  So I am
> going to act as if instead of sofware, X and Y are working on creating a hot
> new spaceplane or some other material product.
>
>
>
>  This means Company Y is under the constant treat of being in violation of
>> Company Y's patents as patents are generally very broad in their
>> descriptions.
>>
> Patents should be much more specific.  But yeah, if X and Y are both
> working on a particular kind of revolutionary space plane and one gets there
> first the other loses out.  Even without patents the first entrant into the
> market with a viable product is likely to take the lion's share of the
> business.   Does their entry mean that they must divulge their product
> details or that it is better for everyone they keep them secret, at least
> long enough to recoup the R&D cost and a bit?    Unclear.
> Yes, you want specificity,  the proper areas for patent and you want
> reasonable  term lengths and preferably non-discriminatory licensing terms.
>    This last keeps patents from being used to shut off competition entirely.
>
>
>  Hence, X is stifling Y's ability to innovate and bring competing products
>> to the market.
>>
> Not really.  They just beat them to one area.   If licensing terms are
> non-discriminatory Y can still introduce new improvements or lower
> manufacturing cost, better service, derivative products and so on.
>
>
>  Then again, you could argue that Y should pay royalty fee to X since they
>> where there first, but remember that two inventions can happen at the same
>> time independently but only the first guy to patent it wins. Patent laws
>> makes it possible for any holder to actually crush a competitor completely
>> and make it impossible for them to actually sell competing products.
>>
> If they had prior documented work then X's patent can be successfully
> challenged.   If X threatens them for patent infringement they can show X
> the documents and if they are sound it is in X's interest to not bring the
> matter to trial assuming Y doesn't see a full court challeng as worth their
> trouble.   Patent laws definitely need reform.  I am not clear that patents
> as such serve no useful purpose for the economy and society or are totally
> unjustified in all forms and circumstances.
>
>
>
>> So then we have X and Y, who are both putting a lot of money into R&D to
>> develop CRM products. They both spend one billion dollars, a total of two
>> billion. To cover these costs, they would need to price their products in
>> the market to earn money back on their investments in R&D. So the market has
>> to pay a minimum of two billion dollars for CRM software.
>>
>
> The market doesn't have to pay twice as much just because two companies
> spent that much at all.  The market values that product for however much in
> total that it values it.  If it values it less than the company or companies
> spent to produce it then tough.  That is the risk of business.   Hey, if it
> costs A to invent, manufacture and market something and you do not recoup
> these cost and more over time then you will not remain in business or not in
> that line of business.   Note the market pays this amount over the effective
> life cycle of the product.  It does not have to pay it at once.    Also,
> many products are loss leaders.  They are sold or give away at a loss to get
> customer loyalty or a customer base that brings in enough revenue to keep
> the business afloat.
>
>
>> If no protection was possible and Y could "copy-cat" some of the ideas and
>> innovations from X, then we potentially could cut the R&D costs in half, one
>> billion dollars (for the point of the argument let's make it half, though
>> would probably be higher).
>>
> So what?  Does each company have the right to their own work product or
> not?  That it might be convenient or cheaper if they both could see into
> each other's plans, designs and operations doesn't mean that
> anything/everything else is wrong or bad.    It would be very convenient if
> I could use everything ever produced for free to do whatever my thing is.
>  But that is not the way reality works or can work this side of santa
> machines at least and perhaps beyond.
>
> Also X and Y, realizing they have a lot of common needs, could collaborate
> on those common needs or even create and lead an Open Source effort (going
> back to a software example a sec) to address those common needs.
>
>  This means the two companies have used only one billion dollars to create
>> two competing CRM software products, which the market only have to pay in
>> total one billion dollars for. This means the market spend less money on CRM
>> licenses and the two companies probably would earn more money since software
>> generally are cheap anyway so they wouldn't lower their prices 50%.
>> Would company X do the initial investments in R&D if they couldn't protect
>> their innovations? My argument is yes, they would. Wherever there is money
>> to be made, there will be investments. Would the product be different? Yes,
>> probably. Would the product be developed in more incremental manner? Yes,
>> probably. Is this good for the consumers? Yes, very likely.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Regarding one of the links mentioned on this thread, I seriously doubt
>> patents is the reason for SAP's problematic issues. I have worked at big
>> organizations with large SAP-implementations, it's in no way related to
>> patents that they are having problems now.
>>
>
> SAP got in early to this space, did very effective marketing and became the
> elephant in that room.  It was a safe bet in large IT especially to plug in
> SAP for a while just as IBM used to be a safe bet to plug in.   But a lot of
> the SAP stack suffers imho from what a lot of first movers suffer over time.
>  It has too many outdated parts that everything else has too many
> dependencies upon and too large a legacy installed base to stay nimble and
> up-to-date in all areas.  But this is good news.  As the old growth reaches
> its zenith and starts its decay there is food, opportunity and room for new
> growth.   Also many a company has made a living trailing behind SAP adding
> value or satisfying things that SAP did not.
>
>
>
>  SAP consultants have generally been very expensive and very lucrative,
>> with innovations in the open source space and availability of cheaper
>> resources from countries such as India and China, few companies are willing
>> to pay the premium and costly investments that SAP represents.
>>
> Yep.  You can be expensive when demand is high and viable alternatives few.
>  Not thereafter.
>
>
>  SAPs recent change in view on patents is in my persona opinion, just a way
>> to gain money where they no longer are able to stay up-to-date and be a
>> choice for customers:
>> http://techdirt.com/articles/20060118/0256239_F.shtml
>>
>
> I agree that outgrowth should not be able to prevent new growth by salting
> the earth with patents.   At least not with strong restrictions on time they
> are valid and reasonable licensing terms.  If a product has been out for
> years without patent protection then I don't think it should be allowed to
> patent it after everyone has done their best to figure out how to do the
> equivalent as well or better.
>
>
>> PS: We don't have software patents (which are really process patents) in
>> Norway, and we've had some pretty big innovations that was very costly.
>> Opera Software (browser), Funcom (games), Qt (open source framework) and
>> FAST (search engine). Qt was bought by Nokia and FAST was bought by
>> Microsoft.
>>
>
> I very much agree that software patents are a blight that should be
> removed.  BTW, I noticed recently that on many economic indicators Norway is
> really booming.  Among others it has budget surpluses, little debt and a
> quite positive trade balance.  It is really looking good.  It makes me sorry
> I didn't take a Norwegian friend who wanted to make me a kept woman while I
> finished schooling if I would go back to Norway with him up on the offer.
>  :)
>
>
> - samantha
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Sondre Bjell?s | Senior Solutions Architect | Steria
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu May 27 15:32:11 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:32:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism, PsyWar and B.E.P.
In-Reply-To: <781413.24943.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFD2DBE.5000203@gmail.com>
	<781413.24943.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201005271535.o4RFZI8I021082@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Adrian wrote:

>(This, also, is part of why they object to significant life 
>extension, or even outright
>curing death.  They'll be forced to care about the future because 
>they'll be living in
>it, and they are uncomfortable with that responsibility.  How dare 
>we make them
>give a damn?)

Another piece of the hostility, which also applies to possible
cures for diseases and to cryonics, is that these measures
cannot possibly work because if they did, they could have been
used to save my loved ones. It is unacceptable that I might not
have done everything possible to save them, so they can't be
true.

The same pattern applies to disbelieving abuse victims. You
can't have been molested by Father Mike, because that means
I failed to protect you.

Likewise, a shiksa is a female goy (presumptively blonde) who
chased our chaste Jewish boy. Because it is unacceptable that
he strayed from our kind on his own.

(Perhaps because the offspring of a chaste Jewish girl, seduced
by a male goy, are considered Jewish, there is no term in use
for a male shiksa.)

Samantha wrote:

>Yeah.  Where do I sign up for my funds from this "well financed movement"?  :)

Harlan Ellison used to freely admit there was a Jewish conspiracy
that controlled the world but ranted that he wasn't getting his cut of
the proceeds.

(And why *aren't* we well-financed, given how science-fictional
some of the investments of Bezos and Allen are?)


-- David.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu May 27 16:41:01 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:41:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism, PsyWar and B.E.P.
In-Reply-To: <201005271535.o4RFZI8I021082@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <184925.20626.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 5/27/10, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Another piece of the hostility, which also applies to
> possible
> cures for diseases and to cryonics, is that these measures
> cannot possibly work because if they did, they could have
> been
> used to save my loved ones. It is unacceptable that I might
> not
> have done everything possible to save them, so they can't
> be
> true.

Indeed.  They forget that the cures don't work *yet*, but are
being developed.  (With the exception of cryonics, of course,
but that can be excepted as, "said loved one didn't want to
go that way".)  Technology can fundamentally alter certain
parts of human society: look no further than the Internet,
20 years ago vs. today.

> (And why *aren't* we well-financed, given how
> science-fictional
> some of the investments of Bezos and Allen are?)

The philosophical wing is not.  The investments tend to be
meritocratic, going directly - if sporadically - to the
technology we advocate.  (Space?  Sure.  Genetic engineering?
Getting some.  Cryonics?  Not so much, but it has what it
needs to operate.)

Although, I have wondered: one of the pluses of what we
advocate is that, effectively, there will exist a lot more
wealth to spread around.  Various aspects of H+ can be
crudely stated as, "...and X increases the world's
economic output, and anyone who wants to participate
profits from doing so."

(Note that "who wants to participate".  In a way, we advocate
certain things becoming like literacy.  Sure, you don't
physically *have* to read, and many humans got by just fine
for ages without knowing how.  But there was always a
competitive advantage to knowing how to read, and once
printing became cheap, this advantage proved itself to be
overwhelming.  Today, children are required to learn how to
read because history has proven its advantages.  In that
sense, we are akin to those in the time of Gutenberg,
advocating that children be taught how to read, when this is
very much not yet the norm.)


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu May 27 17:01:36 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cybernetics expert infects himself
In-Reply-To: <517822.75531.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <282800.34693.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 5/27/10, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> No-one's posted this yet, so I
> thought I'd share this story of one of Reading university's
> researchers deliberately infecting his experimental implant
> to demonstrate how they can suffer viruses too. He makes the
> point that digitally controlled pacemakers *really* ought to
> fit basic security features to prevent a malware attack.
> 
> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100526/tod-scientist-infected-with-computer-vir-870a197.html

No.  He makes the point that he's confusing "there is a way to
access the device" with "ZOMG ANY WIRELESS TRANSMITTER CAN TAKE
CONTROL OF STUFFZ!!1!!1oneone!".

Two of the main things that prevent a device from being hacked
that are commonly overlooked:

1) Value.  What possible value can be gained from hacking the
device?  For a pacemaker - at the most extreme, you've killed
someone who was in poor enough health to need a pacemaker.  A
bullet gets the job done much faster and cheaper than
developing the custom hardware needed for this approach.  It
is true that some systems will be hacked just for fun, but
only if the hackers believe they are not doing substantial
harm; practically no one is both smart enough to hack and
sociopathic enough to kill random people - and those that are,
have better ways to do it.

2) Access.  Few if any devices implanted in the body have any
business receiving from or broadcasting to wireless devices
that are not on or very near the body.  That wastes power,
and thus is simply not done.  Therefore, someone across the
street has no way to hack in to any wireless devices inside
you in the first place.  And that's assuming there is a
wireless interface: many devices require physical contact, of
a kind that is practically impossible to do discreetly.
(Instead of "I pick your pocket", try "I open your ribcage".)

In short, the only way you're going to be uploading or
downloading a computer virus with an implant, is if said
implant is explicitly designed to do so.  Medical devices of
the type he's warning about don't fall into that category.


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu May 27 19:53:13 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 12:53:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1274961604.1736.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <292563.70029.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I think this discussion has gone slightly off the rails.  The question was:
/Gene/ Patents: Good or Bad?
Not:
Patents: Good or Bad?

Everyone seems to be talking about the merits of the patent system in general, whereas the issue is about patenting genes and gene sequences, which is a different question.

IMO, apart from the commercial considerations of patenting a process or invention, the question is: Does/should anyone have the right to patent something like a gene or a sequence of genes?  I think the answer is pretty obvious, but maybe I'm too attached to the idea that someone else shouldn't have legal rights over something that my body has had since birth, that nobody invented, to think rationally about it.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 27 20:33:48 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:33:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <292563.70029.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <292563.70029.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BFED72C.8000107@satx.rr.com>

On 5/27/2010 2:53 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> maybe I'm too attached to the idea that someone else shouldn't have legal rights over something that my body has had since birth, that nobody invented, to think rationally about it.

I understand you can't even take a photograph of someone in the street 
and profit from their likeness without their express permission. But 
apparently it's okay to rifle the contents of their cells, and not only 
that but to obtain a decree saying that you now own the pilfered 
information and you henceforth have to pay them for its use. It might 
have cost a fortune to capture and manipulate that information, but 
roaming photographers have expenses too.

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu May 27 20:54:25 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:54:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <4BFED72C.8000107@satx.rr.com>
References: <292563.70029.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BFED72C.8000107@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4BFEDC01.7080406@satx.rr.com>

On 5/27/2010 3:33 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> apparently it's okay to rifle the contents of their cells, and not only
> that but to obtain a decree saying that you now own the pilfered
> information and you henceforth have to pay them for its use.

Ack! Got the yous and thems reversed there at the end. That's the 
trouble with posting too fast.


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu May 27 21:25:16 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:25:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <292563.70029.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.3.1274961604.1736.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<292563.70029.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimE6-a_xVHQxMvDK_dF-D7j_tfeaoiwgFijckMI@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> IMO, apart from the commercial considerations of patenting a process or invention, the question is: Does/should anyone have the right to patent something like a gene or a sequence of genes? ?I think the answer is pretty obvious, but maybe I'm too attached to the idea that someone else shouldn't have legal rights over something that my body has had since birth, that nobody invented, to think rationally about it.
>
### This is argument against gene patents is akin to saying you can't
patent a hemoglobin-based oxygen-carrying drug, since we all have been
using hemoglobin for that purpose since before the words "hemoglobin"
and "oxygen" were first coined. Do you notice the fallacy here?

Being the first to discover the existence of a gene, its physical
structure and function clearly make you an inventor (see definition of
invention in the Patent Act). Unknowingly using a naturally occurring
gene does not. An inventor then may claim rights to his invention, and
the fact that you are in possession of trillions of copies of a gene
doesn't give you any claims on his property.


Rafal



From aleksei at iki.fi  Thu May 27 21:30:45 2010
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 00:30:45 +0300
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism, PsyWar and B.E.P.
In-Reply-To: <201005271535.o4RFZI8I021082@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <4BFD2DBE.5000203@gmail.com>
	<781413.24943.qm@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<201005271535.o4RFZI8I021082@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilssBv0E6cWHB2-p_No1NQBtlGgOVqu2DTzUSK5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 6:32 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
>
> (And why *aren't* we well-financed, given how science-fictional
> some of the investments of Bezos and Allen are?)

What are the active posters of this and other transhumanist mailing
lists doing that should be well-financed, but isn't?

Mostly outside the active posters of mailing lists, other
transhumanists have a lot of projects that are at least
moderately-and-increasingly-if-not-quite-yet-well-financed. Some I'd
even call well-financed as of now, like Singularity University.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri May 28 01:02:58 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:02:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cybernetics expert infects himself
In-Reply-To: <282800.34693.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <517822.75531.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<282800.34693.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinTcEJVA-PfU47f-5hIrqIpLjBQyLkGMefaxhxc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> 1) Value.  What possible value can be gained from hacking the
> device?  For a pacemaker - at the most extreme, you've killed
> someone who was in poor enough health to need a pacemaker.  A
> bullet gets the job done much faster and cheaper than
> developing the custom hardware needed for this approach.  It
> is true that some systems will be hacked just for fun, but
> only if the hackers believe they are not doing substantial
> harm; practically no one is both smart enough to hack and
> sociopathic enough to kill random people - and those that are,
> have better ways to do it.
>

You know how long it would take for a smart sociopath to visit and shoot
everyone equipped with hackable implants?  Much easier to broadcast a virus
digitally.


> 2) Access.  Few if any devices implanted in the body have any
> business receiving from or broadcasting to wireless devices
> that are not on or very near the body.  That wastes power,
> and thus is simply not done.  Therefore, someone across the
> street has no way to hack in to any wireless devices inside
> you in the first place.  And that's assuming there is a
> wireless interface: many devices require physical contact, of
> a kind that is practically impossible to do discreetly.
> (Instead of "I pick your pocket", try "I open your ribcage".)
>

I agree this might be baseless fear-mongering.  However, as devices become
more featured it is important to prevent failure modes that could be avoided
by implementing security.  If the first four computers that made up the
earliest network had been less trusting of each other, we would have a much
more secure Internet today.  Unfortunately everyone is a friend of everyone
else on the Internet until they aren't.  Hackers only attack other people.
If you have a Mac you can't get viruses.  etc.


In short, the only way you're going to be uploading or
> downloading a computer virus with an implant, is if said
> implant is explicitly designed to do so.  Medical devices of
> the type he's warning about don't fall into that category.
>

Given the option of hackable med implant and 1024-bit cryptographically
secure med implant for only $20 more, which would you choose?
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri May 28 01:24:01 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 18:24:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cybernetics expert infects himself
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinTcEJVA-PfU47f-5hIrqIpLjBQyLkGMefaxhxc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <357291.39169.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 5/27/10, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
You know how long it would take for a smart sociopath to visit and shoot everyone equipped with hackable implants?? Much easier to broadcast a virus digitally.
If mass murder is the goal:
A) Why limit it to those targets?
B) There are far faster and more efficient methods. 
I agree this might be baseless fear-mongering.? However, as devices become more featured it is important to prevent failure modes that could be avoided by implementing security.? If the first four computers that made up the earliest network had been less trusting of each other, we would have a much more secure Internet today.
Nein.? We would not have an Internet today - at least not in nearly as wide use.
The openness was a prerequisite to fast widespread adoption.

In short, the only way you're going to be uploading or

downloading a computer virus with an implant, is if said

implant is explicitly designed to do so. ?Medical devices of

the type he's warning about don't fall into that category.

Given the option of hackable med implant and 1024-bit cryptographically secure med implant for only $20 more, which would you choose?

The only way you're going to be uploading or downloading a
computer virus with an implant, is if said implant is explicitly
designed to do so.? 1024-bit cryptography doesn't enter into
it.? The hardware interface does, and it's more expensive
to make something with enough power to do that kind of
interface.
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri May 28 02:22:31 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 22:22:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cybernetics expert infects himself
In-Reply-To: <357291.39169.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTinTcEJVA-PfU47f-5hIrqIpLjBQyLkGMefaxhxc@mail.gmail.com>
	<357291.39169.qm@web81604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimoT8Lbgto48x3KfvV6S4pBpAuKICVH5yoDkRQ-@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/27 Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> If mass murder is the goal:
> A) Why limit it to those targets?
> B) There are far faster and more efficient methods.

I wasn't thinking mass murder.  More like the digital version of an STD.

> Nein.? We would not have an Internet today - at least not in nearly as wide use.
> The openness was a prerequisite to fast widespread adoption.

Right.  And the widespread adoption of implants is related to your
point about expense, the cheaper the better.

> The only way you're going to be uploading or downloading a
> computer virus with an implant, is if said implant is explicitly
> designed to do so.? 1024-bit cryptography doesn't enter into
> it.? The hardware interface does, and it's more expensive
> to make something with enough power to do that kind of
> interface.

I completely agree it's about expense.  However, what's the expense of
opening a patient to provide a new piece of dumb hardware compared to
updating the software on an existing device?  If a device can be
updated there exists some potential for the update protocol to be
exploited.  All I was suggesting is that security should be part of a
device's initial design, not added on at the end.  Also security from
"it's difficult to get close enough to the device" is incomplete
security.  Though I admit people have widely varying ideas of secure
and how much is enough. (in my opinion their threshold is way too low;
eg: Facebook asks for my gmail account/password to find "friends" - no
doubt many people trust Fb with their inbox)



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri May 28 02:42:13 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:42:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
Message-ID: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2364269,00.asp

The United States Air Force's X-51A Waverider, an experimental aircraft, 
has set a new record for hypersonic flight: Mach 6.

The craft flew at six times the speed of sound for three minutes and 20 
seconds, according to the Associated Press. A B-52 Stratofortress 
released the X-51A Waverider off the southern California coast on 
Wednesday, whereupon the craft's scramjet engine accelerated it to Mach 6.

"We are ecstatic to have accomplished many of the X-51A test points 
during its first hypersonic mission," said Charlie Brink, an X-51A 
program manager with the Air Force Research Laboratory at 
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, in the article. "We equate this 
leap in engine technology as equivalent to the post-World War II jump 
from propeller-driven aircraft to jet engines."

The previous record for a hypersonic scramjet burn was just 12 seconds, 
according to the report.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri May 28 03:12:58 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 23:12:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2364269,00.asp
> The craft flew at six times the speed of sound for three minutes and 20
> seconds, according to the Associated Press. A B-52 Stratofortress released

> The previous record for a hypersonic scramjet burn was just 12 seconds,
> according to the report.

Aside from the geek factor, why is this good?  What applications
require mach 6+ ?


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri May 28 08:29:57 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 01:29:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 8:12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] scramjet

Aside from the geek factor, why is this good?? What 
> applications
require mach 6+ 
> ?

Mach 6 is nearly 4000 mph. You don't see an application for getting from LA to NY in 30 minutes?

?
?Stuart LaForge 


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert



      




From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 28 09:40:43 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:40:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
	<667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilAyFkDIWQpLSmF75OnGeYCJhQ4rZU9er_R1ij_@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/28/10, The Avantguardian wrote:
> Mach 6 is nearly 4000 mph. You don't see an application for getting from LA to NY
> in 30 minutes?
>
>


The X51 is a military project. It's a missile.
What the USAF want is a hypersonic cruise missile.

Cruise missiles are nice, but they can take hours to reach their
target. If the target is a mobile group of terrorists, they could be
gone by the time the missile arrives.

ICBMs with conventional warheads could reach the target in about 30
mins, but they look like a nuclear attack to interested observers,
which might provoke an unwelcome response.

Now, a hypersonic cruise missile......  Yummy!


Civilian uses are unlikely because scramjets have to use a solid
rocket booster to get supersonic before the scramjet can fire up. The
g-forces are probably outside Health and Safety limits.  ;)


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri May 28 11:46:55 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:46:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilAyFkDIWQpLSmF75OnGeYCJhQ4rZU9er_R1ij_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
	<667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilAyFkDIWQpLSmF75OnGeYCJhQ4rZU9er_R1ij_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTink6r9v7v2WoYK3fPiYhAEMrC_dNNnDOtKZHd42@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 May 2010 11:40, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> The X51 is a military project. It's a missile.
> What the USAF want is a hypersonic cruise missile.

In Italian at least, "missile" means "rocket engine". Any
air-breathing (as in scramjet), winged flying object would be called
"plane".

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 28 12:08:08 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:08:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTink6r9v7v2WoYK3fPiYhAEMrC_dNNnDOtKZHd42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
	<667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilAyFkDIWQpLSmF75OnGeYCJhQ4rZU9er_R1ij_@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTink6r9v7v2WoYK3fPiYhAEMrC_dNNnDOtKZHd42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilE6RLRj8PSCpYKZRl-imqLNNR4loHCGQcwM06P@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/28/10, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> In Italian at least, "missile" means "rocket engine". Any
>  air-breathing (as in scramjet), winged flying object would be called
>  "plane".
>
>

That's what you get for speaking the wrong language.  ;)

Present day cruise missiles use jet engines.


BillK


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri May 28 12:14:34 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 05:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.552.1275036238.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <361490.95776.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> argued:
> 
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > IMO, apart from the commercial considerations of
> patenting a process or invention, the question is:
> Does/should anyone have the right to patent something like a
> gene or a sequence of genes? ?I think the answer is pretty
> obvious, but maybe I'm too attached to the idea that someone
> else shouldn't have legal rights over something that my body
> has had since birth, that nobody invented, to think
> rationally about it.
> >
> ### This is argument against gene patents is akin to saying
> you can't
> patent a hemoglobin-based oxygen-carrying drug, since we
> all have been
> using hemoglobin for that purpose since before the words
> "hemoglobin"
> and "oxygen" were first coined. Do you notice the fallacy
> here?
> 
> Being the first to discover the existence of a gene, its
> physical
> structure and function clearly make you an inventor (see
> definition of
> invention in the Patent Act). Unknowingly using a naturally
> occurring
> gene does not. An inventor then may claim rights to his
> invention, and
> the fact that you are in possession of trillions of copies
> of a gene
> doesn't give you any claims on his property.

I stand corrected.

How much do I owe the haemoglobin patent holder, for having used his 'invention' for the past few decades? Will he accept a cheque?

I'm also probably making illegal use of the genes for insulin, several immunoglobulins, a bunch of nerve-growth factors, calmodulin, a gross or so of neurotransmitters, ion channel proteins,....

I'm screwed, aren't I?


Being the discoverer of anything doesn't make you an inventor, it makes you a discoverer.  Otherwise, as Sondre has pointed out, things like platinum could be patented, which is sheer nonsense.

If someone discovers a new gene, and 'claims rights to his discovery', the problem is not that I could make any claim to these 'rights' (alongside a few billion other people, presumably), but that the discoverer could claim any rights over my pre-existing use of this discovery.  Patenting a newly-invented device to detect a specific kind of cancer gene is fair enough, but patenting the gene itself makes no sense at all.  

If I was the first person to work out how chlorophyll turns energy from photons into proton gradients, would it make sense that I could then patent this 'invention' and charge all the farmers in the world for using it?  Or, more realistically, that I could block anyone from using a technique that involved the same processes (a new solar cell, for example)?


Ben Zaiboc
(Rushing off to be the first person to patent chemical bonds, bwahahaha!)


      




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri May 28 14:03:13 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 07:03:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Signs of the singularity
Message-ID: <AANLkTimmz_Fa-7pZ73e8raV_v7sjzHF4atayHNnb26G0@mail.gmail.com>

>From Slashdot

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Sudden Demand For Logicians On Wall Street
                        |
|   from the most-popular-guy-on-the-floor dept.
                        |
|   posted by samzenpus on Thursday May 27, @01:46 (Businesses)
                        |
|   https://science.slashdot.org/story/10/05/27/0258245/Sudden-Demand-For-Logicians-On-Wall-Str|
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

An anonymous reader writes "In an unexpected development for the
depressed market for mathematical logicians, Wall Street has begun
quietly and aggressively [0]recruiting proof theorists and recursion
theorists for their expertise in applying ordinal notations and ordinal
collapsing functions to high-frequency algorithmic trading. Ordinal
notations, which specify sequences of ordinal numbers of ever increasing
complexity, are being used by elite trading operations to parameterize
families of trading strategies of breathtaking sophistication. The
monetary advantage of the current strategy is rapidly exhausted after a
lifetime of approximately four seconds ? an eternity for a machine, but
barely enough time for a human to begin to comprehend what happened. The
algorithm then switches to another trading strategy of higher ordinal
rank, and uses this for a few seconds on one or more electronic
exchanges, and so on, while opponent algorithms attempt the same
maneuvers, risking billions of dollars in the process."

Discuss this story at:
   http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10/05/27/0258245

Links:
   0. http://christianmarks.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/mathematical-logic-finds-unexpected-application-on-wall-street/



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri May 28 13:51:08 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 06:51:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
	<667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <982390.71376.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

30 minutes is too long. I want to get there in one minute! :)

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 4:29:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] scramjet

----- Original Message ----
> From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 8:12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] scramjet

Aside from the geek factor, why is this good?? What 
> applications
require mach 6+ 
> ?

Mach 6 is nearly 4000 mph. You don't see an application for getting from LA to NY in 30 minutes?

?
?Stuart LaForge 


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight." - Joseph Joubert



? ? ? 


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 28 14:26:22 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:26:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Signs of the singularity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimmz_Fa-7pZ73e8raV_v7sjzHF4atayHNnb26G0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmz_Fa-7pZ73e8raV_v7sjzHF4atayHNnb26G0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXlH98Kk-ppgikvfAJETKu-rCUCmToA6u0yNn4@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/28/10, Keith Henson wrote:
> >From Slashdot
>
>  An anonymous reader writes "In an unexpected development for the
>  depressed market for mathematical logicians, Wall Street has begun
>  quietly and aggressively [0]recruiting proof theorists and recursion
>  theorists for their expertise in applying ordinal notations and ordinal
>  collapsing functions to high-frequency algorithmic trading. Ordinal
>  notations, which specify sequences of ordinal numbers of ever increasing
>  complexity, are being used by elite trading operations to parameterize
>  families of trading strategies of breathtaking sophistication. The
>  monetary advantage of the current strategy is rapidly exhausted after a
>  lifetime of approximately four seconds ? an eternity for a machine, but
>  barely enough time for a human to begin to comprehend what happened. The
>  algorithm then switches to another trading strategy of higher ordinal
>  rank, and uses this for a few seconds on one or more electronic
>  exchanges, and so on, while opponent algorithms attempt the same
>  maneuvers, risking billions of dollars in the process."
>
>


More like Signs of Wall Street terminal insanity.


BillK



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 28 15:14:54 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:14:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Signs of the singularity
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXlH98Kk-ppgikvfAJETKu-rCUCmToA6u0yNn4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmz_Fa-7pZ73e8raV_v7sjzHF4atayHNnb26G0@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikXlH98Kk-ppgikvfAJETKu-rCUCmToA6u0yNn4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin1DXxdalY9NyHdryZ14wvMjT0Fd0vMB4hbTKpM@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/28/10, BillK wrote:
> More like Signs of Wall Street terminal insanity.
>
>

To further explain my comment, Nathan A. Martin (economist) just wrote
this morning:
<http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2010/05/morning-update-market-thread-528.html>

Good Morning,

Equity futures are flat following yesterdays 284 point jaunt. That was
a ridiculous 97% up day by volume on the NYSE. Now, normally I would
consider that a ?panic? buying day, but it came on much lower volume.
Remember, volume confirms price, and volume hasn?t confirmed any
direction but down for the past 3 years.

And last night it dawned on me what?s occurring is not the same thing
as what used to occur in the good old days of 90ish percent up or down
days? Of course you know that the market is extremely volatile, but
we?ve had SIX 90%+ down days in the past few weeks to go along with
another couple 90%+ up days (no follow-through on the upside, only on
the downside). These have not just been 90%, they?ve been in the high
90?s. Now combine that fact with the fact that four banks had perfect
trading quarters? the conclusion is that HFT (High Frequency Trading)
has become so good and so fast at chasing short term momentum that all
the machines get on the same side of the trade way faster and more
efficiently than they used to. I mean, come on ? 97% off all the
trading volume was long yesterday, that?s simply absurd. Was mom and
pop going long because we finally broke back above 1,090? Hardly,
these lopsided days are yet another sign of how HFT and a very few
players have taken over the markets. I reiterate; the markets no
longer exist, they are a computer simulation.
--------------------

BillK



From jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov  Fri May 28 18:15:42 2010
From: jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jim Stevenson)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 11:15:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Marty Nemko career counseler prohibitionist?
Message-ID: <201005281815.o4SIFgTu027300@eos.arc.nasa.gov>

Marty Nemko is a career counseler and radio talk show host
on kGO Sunday evenings,
and KALW Sundays 11Am to noon.

He is an open atheist, with libertarian sympathies,
He is also signed up for cryonics.

yet he speaks of the benefits of prohibition
 of both alcohol and marijuana.
comparing such prohibition to traffic speed limits.
He often talks about the import of considering 
"benefit to risk ratio".
Yet he says nothing about the many costs of prohibition.

He does not seem to consider that the same Big Brother governments 
who try to protect individuals from themselves,
would likely try to prohibit us from choosing our individual risks,
and us from spending our earned funds on cryonics.

Do any of you know him or his work,
or have the ability to discuss prohibition with him?




--

Jim Stevenson Ph.D
experimental psychologist, conducting sonification research,
 & certified master Ericksonian clinical hypnotherapist.
jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov 
(650) 604-5720 w  
or leave message any time.

ham call
wb6yoy




From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri May 28 22:26:43 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:26:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikbApVTe0g9knE3rEgC3U7sWLcVqUZWmOXYK0YH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1ff801cafc29$8662a1b0$9327e510$@bjellas.com>
	<100719.650.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4BFCF9F6.3070500@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikbApVTe0g9knE3rEgC3U7sWLcVqUZWmOXYK0YH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C004323.9060504@mac.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:37 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>   So far
>   
>> I am pretty opposed to most types of gene patents, especially ones that
>> include little or no real invention.
>>     
>
> ### U.S. Patent Act (found in Title 35 of the United States Code)
> specifically requires that patents can only be issued on inventions
> (see http://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/100.html). A patent cannot be
> issued under US law on a non-invention. Gene patents are issued after
> examiners at the US PTO determine the presence of an invention,
> therefore your objection pertains to either an empty set, or patents
> issued in contravention of the law.
>
>   

Due to the overwhelming of the PTO staff, likely in large part because 
of the large and growing volume of patents and kinds of patents,  and 
due to lack of expertise and clear guidelines in some newer technology 
areas, I would very much expect many mistakes to be made that may be 
difficult and expensive to live with or to undo.  That isn't a valid 
argument against gene patents in general though.

- s

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri May 28 22:35:17 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:35:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gene Patents: Good or Bad?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikva0pruQruPl5yoKmoggb-6GZVDx46u6P1gFdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFBF153.6000401@gmail.com>
	<861427.78751.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilnLNoLyOvzUHCY5xHj-xOJ47HryeL4Kz584mnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b301cafc2f$efb528d0$cf1f7a70$@bjellas.com>
	<AANLkTimV5queyFkSdClMbDcFaJ9zQuAPSHfWl5GdGNj8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilE4zJTPqj3n5sJMfkHzLFLgTnDrzIcpOF0rXJm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMkDbyRbJpCtWBl_aOz0oN15d3wfTBFf_-K5ZF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFCF709.6030502@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikVSyLufD3hF1A0DP4aRJ8hHe2m5Nf-sZAdqQyX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BFDD6FD.8020000@mac.com>
	<AANLkTikva0pruQruPl5yoKmoggb-6GZVDx46u6P1gFdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C004525.2050500@mac.com>

Sondre Bjell?s wrote:
> You ask if company X should be allowed to protect their invention in 
> any possible way: Yes they should! Everyone should try to protect 
> their core business ideas and implementations. Nobody has the right to 
> corporate or private information. Trade secrets is an essential part 
> of many businesses today.
>
> Other than that, we agree on most points. Trade secrets and 
> copyright/trademark laws are more than enough to protect the software 
> space. The heart of the discussion is patents on genes, which I would 
> say is somewhat similar to patent on elements (gold, silver, titanium).

I would agree if it is a patent on a naturally occurring genetic 
component.  Then there is no new invention, as Rafal points out.  But if 
it is a reasonably innovative modification through genetic engineering 
(and not just a mod to achieve patentability) then I don't see offhand 
why it shouldn't be as valid a candidate for protection as any other 
invention.
>
> The economy in Norway is scary, it's too good. It makes it hard to 
> export Norwegian goods and services. Norway was (I think) the first 
> country to raise it's interests rates, as we have a problem with to 
> many people investing money into real-estate which doesn't really do 
> good for anyone economy. Few companies have had to cut down on 
> employees and even less has closed down. Some companies have used the 
> "crisis" as a mechanism for laying off unwanted employees, which is 
> really, really hard in this country due to regulations and laws that 
> protect the employee.

Yeah.  Given the little I know of Norwegian policies and tax structure I 
was a bit surprised by its economic strength. 
>
> Other than that, it's a great country to live in if you like to take 
> things easy and don't worry to much. Before we found oil, you wouldn't 
> want to have lived here. We're close to 4.8 million that lives here 
> now and we have the worst railroad and road system in whole of Europe ;-)
I though that Norway's oil fields peaked some time ago. 

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri May 28 22:47:51 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:47:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C004817.8020005@mac.com>

Mike Dougherty wrote:
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>   
>> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2364269,00.asp
>> The craft flew at six times the speed of sound for three minutes and 20
>> seconds, according to the Associated Press. A B-52 Stratofortress released
>>     
>
>   
>> The previous record for a hypersonic scramjet burn was just 12 seconds,
>> according to the report.
>>     
>
> Aside from the geek factor, why is this good?  What applications
> require mach 6+ ?
>   

HASTOL <http://www.tethers.com/OrbitToOrbit.html> and other rotovator 
spacelaunch techniques.  But it needs around Mach 12 as I understand it 
except for skyhook variants where the receiving in comes nearly to rest 
at certain points in its orbit.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 29 13:48:49 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 06:48:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] FW: Nice? (was Re:  Cryonics is getting weird)
Message-ID: <030D366889AF44958A632DF63B7FCF92@spike>

Brent is having trouble posting to the list, still investigating.  I have
been away on family biz, so this is delayed a week, my apologies:

==========================================

spike wrote:
> Brent is far too nice, thinking of how to help his siblings, even if 
> they fail to carry out his wishes.

Behaving like a predatory loan shark with $50K that I otherwise possibly
can't use, giving it to my siblings during this brief immortal time, with a
full expectation of eventual true justice when we are all resurrected, and
they, then, having to do something like be my slave for a million years to
pay me back for this, and what they did.  Me, and surely, then, everyone
else, not being willing to fully forgive them till they do, is being 'nice'?

Brent Allsop




From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 29 19:01:05 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:01:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] scramjet
In-Reply-To: <667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4BFF2D85.10009@satx.rr.com><AANLkTil_dy5DPJDS6OeQwvzn5g5rJqCLXRwJGE4ktkhO@mail.gmail.com>
	<667628.54228.qm@web65614.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6AC87EC5B8A64ECD85360E0EE611B8CF@spike>

 

> ...On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
...
> 
> > Aside from the geek factor, why is this good?? What 
> > applications require mach 6+  ?
> 
> Mach 6 is nearly 4000 mph. You don't see an application for 
> getting from LA to NY in 30 minutes?
> 
> ?
> ?Stuart LaForge 

It's for accelerating a final stage on its way to orbit.  If you can master
scramjet technology, you can get to orbit with more stuff cheaper.

spike









From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 29 19:31:23 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:31:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] FW: Nice? (was Re:  Cryonics is getting weird)
In-Reply-To: <030D366889AF44958A632DF63B7FCF92@spike>
References: <030D366889AF44958A632DF63B7FCF92@spike>
Message-ID: <C4F2D35116ED49199728BCD3440746DA@spike>

...
> ==========================================
> 
> spike wrote:
> > Brent is far too nice, thinking of how to help his 
> siblings, even if they fail to carry out his wishes.
> 
> ...Me, and surely, 
> then, everyone else, not being willing to fully forgive them 
> till they do, is being 'nice'? Brent Allsop


Brent, let me state it this way.  Between you and Johnny Grigg, you have
demonstrated that if you want grandchildren, if you want your sons to be
honest, kindhearted, solid citizen, sturdy goodfellers, then encourage them
to be Mormon.  They can do that and still be transhumanist, still be
reasonable, thinking people, and get the other good stuff too.

spike





From moulton at moulton.com  Sun May 30 09:08:42 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 02:08:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] FW: Nice? (was Re:  Cryonics is getting weird)
In-Reply-To: <C4F2D35116ED49199728BCD3440746DA@spike>
References: <030D366889AF44958A632DF63B7FCF92@spike>
	<C4F2D35116ED49199728BCD3440746DA@spike>
Message-ID: <1275210522.26954.53.camel@desktop-linux>

On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 12:31 -0700, someone wrote:
> 
> Brent, let me state it this way.  Between you and Johnny Grigg, you have
> demonstrated that if you want grandchildren, if you want your sons to be
> honest, kindhearted, solid citizen, sturdy goodfellers, then encourage them
> to be Mormon.  They can do that and still be transhumanist, still be
> reasonable, thinking people, and get the other good stuff too.

If you want children to be "honest, kindhearted, solid citizen, sturdy
goodfellers" then how about encouraging them to be "honest, kindhearted,
solid citizen, sturdy goodfellers".  There is no need to encourage them
to be Mormons, Catholics, holy roller snake handles or any other
religion.  There is no need to teach any sort of religious dogma
particularly to a young impressionable child.  

Fred




From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon May 31 01:35:06 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:35:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Are You Going!?  Humanity+ Summit @ Harvard June 12-13
Message-ID: <82E79D4B70CF4A39B3B4043DE0FAAB30@DFC68LF1>

Who is going to the Summit?  I'd love to meet up with transhumanists on the
lists.
 
Here is a link to the speakers' page <http://hplussummit.com/speakers.html>
and the schedule is here <http://hplussummit.com/schedule.html>
 
It will be great to see you there!
 
Natasha
 
 
 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More
 
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 31 02:15:19 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:15:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] black atheists society
In-Reply-To: <82E79D4B70CF4A39B3B4043DE0FAAB30@DFC68LF1>
References: <82E79D4B70CF4A39B3B4043DE0FAAB30@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <831B9D3C8D604E0C9510594AAF938972@spike>

 
This is cool and enlightening:
 
 
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127239913
 
 
 
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From max at maxmore.com  Mon May 31 06:52:21 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 01:52:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] black atheists society
Message-ID: <201005310719.o4V7JBHd028822@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I especially like this observation:

"It's sort of unfortunate that we even need to use that word 
[atheist]. People aren't running around going, I don't believe in Poseidon."

This reminds me... For many years, when people ask me "Are you an 
atheist", I typically respond: "Do you mean: Do I think I can 
disprove the likely existence of a god? If so, it depends on which 
god you're talking about. In that sense, I'm an atheist about the 
Judeo-Christian god.

If you mean, do I lack belief in a god (but don't necessary think 
such belief can be disproven specifically)? I'd say I'm am an atheist 
about Poseidon, as well as Odin, Zeus, Amaterasu, Tatehaya 
Susanoo-no-Mikoto, Enki, Osirus, Mama Zara, Svarog, Vishnu, Anansi 
(except as a character in Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys), and probably 
nay other supposed god you might mention. However, oddly, hardly 
anyone asks if I'm atheist about these other supposed gods.

However, I have read many issues of Marvel's Thor comic, and look 
forward to the movie next year.

Max

>This is cool and enlightening:
>
>
><http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127239913>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127239913




From estropico at gmail.com  Mon May 31 07:59:44 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 08:59:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: The Future of Economics
Message-ID: <AANLkTikiWesMOc9Q2lprOjJ1V8F0PYn4VRUj9ZxWAzB_@mail.gmail.com>

The future of economics

- How does the monetary system actually operate, and what are its
consequences upon society?
- What are the consequences of increasing displacement of human labour
by machines?
- Are monetary incentives necessary to spur product development?
- What prospects are there to transition to more rational systems for
allocating resources and pursuing technological innovation?
- Is an economy without money feasible?

The speaker:

Ben McLeish is one of the most active members of the Zeitgeist movement UK.

There's no charge to attend, and everyone is welcome. There will be
plenty of opportunity to ask questions and to make comments.
Discussion will continue after the event, in a nearby pub, for those
who are able to stay.

The venue:

Lecture Room B20 is on the basement level in the main Birkbeck College
building, in Torrington Square (which is a pedestrian-only square).
Torrington Square is about 10 minutes walk from either Russell Square
or Goodge St tube stations.

For the ones who wish to do so, they can meet some of the London
Futurist regulars for a drink and/or light lunch beforehand, any time
after 12.30pm, in The Marlborough Arms, 36 Torrington Place, London
WC1E 7HJ. To find us, look out for a table where there's a copy of the
book "The Singularity is Near" displayed.


From estropico at gmail.com  Mon May 31 08:23:00 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 09:23:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: the future of economics
Message-ID: <AANLkTinRPubyLNhVnJb1Oj97yZWAcyk3K-wukrt3SmtN@mail.gmail.com>

I forgot the date and time... the event is on Saturday the 5th of June
starting at 2pm.
Cheers,
Fabio


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon May 31 13:56:22 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 06:56:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] black atheists society
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1275307203.10319.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <419856.91326.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Most telling quote from that item:
"I would get thrown out of religion class for asking questions".

Says it all, really.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon May 31 14:33:45 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 10:33:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Jeanne Robinson, in peace
Message-ID: <201005311533.o4VFXlqV020208@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 From Spider Robinson --

>Jeanne Robinson left this life at about 4:45 Sunday afternoon, a 
>gentle smile on her face. Her departure was quite peaceful and she 
>was in no pain at all.
>
>Because her Palliative Care doctor, Paul Sugar, was able to forecast 
>her passing almost to the hour, her daughter Terri, son-in-law Heron 
>and granddaughter Marisa flew back from NYC just in time, and were 
>with me at her side when Jeanne died; and her mother Dorothy and 
>sister Laurie arrived from Massachusetts only a couple of hours 
>later, after Terri had had time to expertly make Jeanne look better 
>than she had for days. Zen priests Michael and Kate Newton were also 
>present per Jeanne's wishes, as were our oldest friends in this part 
>of the world, Greg McKinnon, Anya Coveney-Hughes and Stevie 
>McDowell. Over the next few hours more sangha buddies arrived, and 
>chanting of the Prajna Paramita Heart Sutra was done. Her body was 
>then bathed and dressed in her hand-sewn rakasu as per Zen tradition.
>
>In accordance with her wishes she will be cremated. Half her ashes 
>will be scattered off this coast, and half will be taken back to her 
>childhood home, Cape Cod, so that her East Coast family will have a 
>place to go and visit her.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 31 20:10:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 13:10:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two observations
In-Reply-To: <82E79D4B70CF4A39B3B4043DE0FAAB30@DFC68LF1>
References: <82E79D4B70CF4A39B3B4043DE0FAAB30@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <1448B5D2E0D247BFB7154B0708D5BF59@spike>

 
It is seldom and delightful when I get to see something in nature I had
never seen before.  This week I saw two things.
 
My folks have a toy poodle and a housecat.  Both were outside when the
neighbors' dog strayed over (a mongrel beast) and attacked the poodle
(although without intent to slay or seriously injure.)  The poodle yelped,
resulting in the housecat charging the attacker, clearly *with* the
intention of causing maximum harm (yowling and hissing with murder in her
eye.)  In all the years I have observed pets, I have never seen a housecat
angrily attack a much larger dog.  From the usual evolutionary altruism
explanations, I don't see why the cat did this.  It is entirely possible she
thinks she is a dog, having never seen a mirror.
 
Observation 2, just today, I learned that earwigs can fly!  I never even
knew they had wings.  I wasn't sure I was believing what I saw, until I
googled and found the following comment on Wiki:
 
" Earwigs rarely fly, even though they are capable of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_flight> flight."
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earwig
 
I have seen thousands of these things, and it wasn't until today I ever saw
one fly.
 
spike
 
 
 
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From scerir at libero.it  Mon May 31 20:55:52 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:55:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] project 'Icarus'
Message-ID: <20029512.542401275339352443.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Tuesday, May 25, 2010
Can Humanity Design a Probe Capable of Visiting Another Star?
Project Icarus is an ambitious plan to reassess our ability to send a 
spacecraft to another star. But is it any more than science fiction? [Etc.]
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25221/

Project Icarus: Son of Daedalus, Flying Closer to Another Star
Authors: K. F. Long, R. K. Obousy, A. C. Tziolas, A. Mann, R. Osborne, A. 
Presby, M. Fogg
Abstract: During the 1970s members of the British Interplanetary Society 
embarked on a landmark theoretical engineering design study to send a probe to 
Barnard's star. Project Daedalus was a two-stage vehicle employing electron 
beam driven inertial confinement fusion engines to reach its target 
destination. This paper sets out the proposal for a successor interstellar 
design study called Project Icarus. This is an attempt to redesign the Daedalus 
vehicle with similar terms of reference. The aim of this study is to evolve an 
improved engineering design and move us closer to achieving interstellar 
exploration. Although this paper does not discuss prematurely what design 
modification are likely to occur some indications are given from the nature of 
the discussions. This paper is a submission of the Project Icarus Study 
Group. 
Comments:  20 pages, 4 figures, 5 tables 
http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.3833


From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon May 31 21:05:13 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 17:05:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] two observations
In-Reply-To: <1448B5D2E0D247BFB7154B0708D5BF59@spike>
References: <82E79D4B70CF4A39B3B4043DE0FAAB30@DFC68LF1>
	<1448B5D2E0D247BFB7154B0708D5BF59@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimcr7iDJyAKRnXabgiLF0A7XCiT4LoL5m73u9zd@mail.gmail.com>

2010/5/31 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> Observation 2, just today, I learned that earwigs can fly!? I never even
> knew they had wings.? I wasn't sure I was believing what I saw, until I
> googled and found the following comment on Wiki:

"I done seen 'bout ever'thing fly but never seen no earwig fly"

I think it's interesting the way spiders fly.  A small spider will
produce a strand of silk that catches enough breeze to carry the
spider up into the air.  Maybe it's not technically self-powered
flight; it's a cool trick though.  I imagine it as a metaphor for
human diaspora to the stars - our puny boats won't carry a whole
civilization but a largest enough number of seeds cast to the [solar]
wind might eventually be lucky.  Given our inherent sense of
self-preservation, those seeds will probably have to be digital copies
else the failure rate would be depressingly prohibitive.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 31 21:42:54 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 14:42:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] two observations
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimcr7iDJyAKRnXabgiLF0A7XCiT4LoL5m73u9zd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <82E79D4B70CF4A39B3B4043DE0FAAB30@DFC68LF1><1448B5D2E0D247BFB7154B0708D5BF59@spike>
	<AANLkTimcr7iDJyAKRnXabgiLF0A7XCiT4LoL5m73u9zd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F32B610F5F41447DA69EA4C8758DBFCC@spike>

> ...On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
> Subject: Re: [ExI] two observations
> 
> 2010/5/31 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> > Observation 2, just today, I learned that earwigs can fly!? I never 
> > even knew they had wings.? I wasn't sure I was believing what I saw...
> 
> "I done seen 'bout ever'thing fly but never seen no earwig fly"
> 
> I think it's interesting the way spiders fly...

I have seen that.  In Florida, banana spiders form a kind of a kite with
their legs, and reel themselves out with their own webs.  They don't fly
above the attach point, but they can go out pi/4 radians or more from
vertical on a breezy day.  Rather I should say I haven't personally
witnessed one fly above the attach point.

Regarding the flying earwig, had I ever actually hurled one, her instinct
would perhaps kick in and she would fly down to the earth.  I looked closely
and couldn't even see that she had wings, but clearly she does.  By
extrapolation, perhaps there are other cyprinidae which also have vestigial
or seldom-used wings.  These may only be utilized when some oddball actually
hurls the beast skyward.  Perhaps you have heard of the horse wisperer?  I
am now the roach hurler.  I have been entertaining and disgusting my
long-suffering family at the Memorial Day picnic today by seeking out and
hurling various bugs, in order to study their reactions.  I have been
requested to take my investigations far from the actual food.  Isaac seems
to be getting into the spirit of the activity.  It must be a lot of fun to
be aged three.

spike