[ExI] The Great Silence again

[Kelly Anderson]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 09:00:48PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>
>> I postulate that the longer the split, the more difficult the
>> rejoining will be. I can see splitting for a day, or a few weeks, but
>
> With speedups of 10^6 to 10^9 you're looking at very small domains
> where things make sense. However, even for relatively small (to us)
> separation like lightminutes you cannot keep a consistent ecosystem.
> Local fluctuations diverge into entirely different ecosystem patches.
> This is like surface of planet Earth scaled to a Dyson sphere (gedanken,
> this does't work).

Yes, that makes complete sense.

> Over sufficient distances the originating signature will be erased
> (because you're operating very close at the physical limits of the
> universe, let's call this the omega ceiling), so likely there is no
> detectable difference between "aliens" or regular resident species,
> apart from some extremely long-lived individuals remembering different
> points of origin.

Evolution loves islands for speciation, so I suspect you are
absolutely right. Pieces of computronium that are separated by very
much distance will likely be populated with very different structures
entirely.

> This is nothing what we are familiar with. The world is stranger
> than we can imagine.

Indeed. And while your point is absolutely correct, and interesting,
it may not be exactly the point I was trying to make... so let me try
again just to make sure.

Suppose that we have the ability to "upload" our brain into a VR. We
do so, and it has some experiences that we wish to reintegrate into
our main wetware brain. Because we are merging two neural networks,
this is easier when integrating the two brains that have been
separated for only a few hours, much harder if the two brains have
been separated for a year. The problem being that the two nets become
dissimilar over time, and reintegration (by which I would assume the
growth of dendrites and other necessary brain structure changes)
becomes more difficult because you are merging elements that have no
context in the other brain. Does this make sense to anyone?

Another aspect of this thought is that the reintegration of the brains
would be a good thing to do while sleeping, as dreaming is thought to
be some kind of brain reorganization anyway.

>> after years, the divergence would be so large that it would seem very
>> tricky to reintegrate the networks (assuming they work like the
>> brain).
>
> Invididuals can cross over across invididual postecosystem cells.
> Their fates will depend on whether things make sense or not make sense.
> There will be invasive species, until a new equilibrium is reached.
> There will be extinctions.

Once we escape our biology, the concept of individual MAY become
passe. I can imagine other organizations that might work better, such
as actual independent memes as the primary element of being.

>> What about the matrix on the rocket?
>
> Let's avoid hollywoodisms. They're rarely helpful.

Sorry, what I meant was that if we sent a space craft to another star,
that during the trip computation in various VRs would not stop.

>> Sure, and it will get worse. I had a day mostly without Internet, it
>> was slightly uncomfortable. But if you're going out into space with a
>> group, wouldn't you have a net, just a smaller one?
>
> You don't have "a net". It's a chunk of reality. It might be suspended
> into stasis, so that subjective time passage is zero. Or you could be
> a set of seeds, which are not invididuals but develop into them on
> arrival in a suitable system.

Ok. That could work. Traveling to other stars is not a very
interesting thing, so the interest must be internal, if that is
possible.

>> > Consider a posthuman civ where they live in the Matrix. You'd die if
>> > you lost connection.
>>
>> If you lost connection to half of the matrix, you would not die. If
>> you lost connection to 90% of the matrix, you would not die, but it
>> might get inconvenient. If you lost connection to the entire matrix,
>> then you would probably die.
>
> You cannot lose connection to the entire matrix, no more than you
> can lose your connection to your brain. You *are* a pattern in a chunk
> of molecular circuitry, interacting with other patterns in the same
> chunk or linked via a high-bandwidth connection to a (not too) remote
> chunk.

Likely so.

> Presumably the core issue people seem to have is that of isolation.
> We people are social (soon eusocial?) animals, so typically do not
> tolerate isolation well. Even so, there is considerable variation
> between individuals. And of course people have founded whole new
> cultures starting with just a band of travelers, and ecosystems
> have bootstrapped by species immune to ennui. Coconut palms rarely
> get bored. It took a while until U.S. become palatable enough for
> European decadents to cross over. Species successions happen.

Again, what is an "individual" anyway in such a situation. The future
is indeed strange.

-Kelly