[ExI] Von Neumann probes for what?

Samantha Atkins sjatkins at mac.com
Sat Jan 1 18:03:28 UTC 2011


On Jan 1, 2011, at 9:05 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 02:47:58PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> 
>> What exactly do we expect these probes to do when they reach 
>> a workable planetary system?  A certain portion of the local 
> 
> The pioneers set up shop there, self-reproduce, continue to
> the next system.

Of what does this "setting up shop" consist?  Creating things in support of further arrivals perhaps.  Perhaps also seeding a local civ.  

> 
> Then the successor waves arrive, set up shop there, self
> reproduce, continue to the next system.
> 
> Iterate, until you're in semi-steady state where each
> patch of the universe is equivalent to a patch of Earth
> Amazonas rainforest, only in 3d.

What for?  Some waves will stay and develop local area.  Native successors will arise.  But how convergence or divergent from the originating civ is actually seen as a benefit to the originating civ is part of my question.


> 
> The postecosystem continues, until the Joules and atoms
> run out, at which point The End. Unless the rainforest
> creates find a trick how to make it go on ticking. There
> might be none.
> 
>> resources would be converted into more probes and sending 
>> those out.   What the rest do is an interesting question.
> 
> Take a random km^2 of this planet. What does it do? It
> depends on whom you ask. The ants, the lizards and the 
> inebriated farmer will be probably not in agreement.


This is not terribly germane to my question.

> 
>> Presumably they are capable of producing a matrix 
>> (computronium or something less exotic) out of local 
> 
> Computronium is no more exotic than the box you're
> writing this on. It isn't neutronium, or unobtainium,
> unless it isn't made from classical matter. It's not
> obvious latter is possible.

Sure it is as we have not decided exactly what its character is nor do we no how to produce it.  It is a theoretical construct. 

> 
>> resources and instilling it with some part of the knowledge, 
>> abilities of the originating civilization.   If they are 
> 
> Well, yeah, Mayflower brought in a number of colonists.
> 
>> so capable then it does not seem possible that each probe 
> 
> The pioneers have only one fitness function to comply to:
> propagate as quickly as possible. They're streamlined to 
> do only this task. 

Not so or I don't see why it would be so and the probe have any real capacity to do any good for the originating civ.  A mere cosmic yeast mold is not terribly useful to anyone unless you like cosmic yeast. 

> 
> Successor species waves will be of all colors, and some
> of them will be smart. Some extremely so. Others will be
> dumb as dirt.
> 
> Evolution doesn't have a particular arrow. It just fills
> the niches.
> 

This in not natural evolution but an engineered expansion.  They are not the same thing.


>> is or evolves to be relatively unintelligent regarding the 
>> decision as to whether some particular system can or or 
>> should be processed.   After all it could unfold enough 
>> computational capacity to consider the question more 
>> deeply before proceeding with the main phase.  If the 
>> consideration led to a negative answer then it would 
>> use at most enough resources to send a minimal set of 
>> other probes out and clean up after itself.  
> 
> Take a common E. coli. It is sufficiently complex that we,
> the smart many big humans don't know how it exactly works.
> 
> Does E. coli know how it works? Why should it even care,
> as long as it can?
> 

This is not addressing my question.


>> If the probe only converted local resources into more probes 
>> and no probes set up an outpost of the originators then what 
>> interest of the originators would be served by the program?    
> 
> What interests of your originators would be served by your
> existance?

Nor is this.

> 
>> If the probes could evolve to ditch all parts of their program 
>> except replication that would be a failure.   If the created 
>> outposts could change so much as to be incompatible and even 
>> a serious threat for the rest of the civilization that would 
>> be something to consider before embarking on such a program.   
>> 
>> I can see value in such as a way to ensure that all things 
>> at all  like the originating civ don't get wiped out by a 
>> supernova or some other relatively localized catastrophe.  
>> Or perhaps creating a buffer zone.  
>> 
>> Am I missing something?
> 
> Yes. You're thinking way too much.

Boo hoo.

- s



More information about the extropy-chat mailing list