[ExI] simulation as an improvement over reality.

[The Avantguardian]

>
>From: John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Sent: Sun, January 2, 2011 10:51:14 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] simulation as an improvement over reality.
>
>
>
>On Jan 2, 2011, at 4:38 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:
>
>>I am not saying that there is something "missing" from the copy. I am saying 
>>that both the original and the copies will have unique reference frames.

----------John wrote--------------------------------------------------------
In my thought experiment the two were not moving with respect to each other so I 

see absolutely  nothing unique about their reference frames, and even if they 
were I'll be dammed if I can see why it would matter. And anyway I thought you 
said the copies were perfect
--------------------------------------

> These reference frames will be physical in the sense that they will sweep 
> out distinct world lines in space-time

----------John wrote--------------------------------------------------------

Space-time lines of what, Space-time lines of every atom that was once part of 
your body including that atom you pissed down the toilet when you were in the 
third grade?
-------------------------------------------

Yes, that atom's world line orbited a mass of similar lines for some time before 

being pissed away. That twisted mass of world lines was 
and is me. Atoms come, exchange partners, and go. Some do it quickly, some 
slowly, but still there is a relatively stable pattern of atomic world lines 
clustered 

around my center of mass. Of course for simplicity, you can approximate me with 
a single fatter world line representing the average position of my atoms.

>
>Call it the autocentric sense, if you will

----------John wrote--------------------------------------------------------
Yet another euphemism for the soul. And please explain why this "autocentric 
sense" cannot be copied in a perfect copy.
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But nobody who actually believes in souls would think that I am describing 
anything remotely like a 

soul. And if the autocentric sense is a soul then all GPS devices and other 
navigational instruments would have souls. Furthermore the sense *can* be copied 
but once it is copied it would become non-identical. 

For some items, perfect copies can't exist. To see why, imagine you have a 
perfect replicator that can replicate anything flawlessly and a perfect GPS unit 
that can measure 

it's own position with respect to the GPS satellite constellation 
with indefinitely high precision. Now imagine using the replicator on the GPS 
unit so that now you have two GPS units. Do the GPS units read *exactly* the 
same position? If not, the GPS devices are not perfect copies, since their 
readings are different. If they do, then one of the GPS devices is not 
functioning correctly because both can't be in the same place at the time.

> The label "you" implies "over there". Me implies "here".
>
----------John wrote--------------------------------------------------------
But as I have said before and will continue saying, if the two are identical and 

you exchange "here" for "over there" even the very universe itself will not 
notice any difference, and remember that both you standing here and that fellow 
over there are also part of the universe and you'd be no better detecting that 
exchange than any other part of the universe. And as I have also said before 
this is not just some skittering abstraction but the bedrock behind one of the 
most important ideas in modern physics, exchange forces. 
------------------------------
 
Exchange forces play a role in my argument too because they mediate the Pauli 
Exclusion Principle 

that prevents fermions with identical quantum states from occupying the same 
position in space. Because of this no two pieces of matter can occupy the exact 
same place at the exact same time, even if in all other respects they are 
identical.
 
>You don't feel like a different person by moving  from one spatial coordinate 
to
 >another because the reference frame moves with you

----------John wrote--------------------------------------------------------
So if I give you general anesthesia, put you on a jet to a undisclosed location 
and then wake you up Stuart LaForge will be dead and there will just be an 
impostor who looks behaves thinks and believes with every fibre of his being 
that he is Stuart LaForge
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 
No because the autocentric sense is about *relative* positioning. It 
recalibrates wherever I happen to find myself after the anethesia wears off 
back to being ground zero, the origin of my spatial map.
 
>The autocentric sense does not track your absolute position in space, there is 
>no such thing, but your position relative to external objects including any 
>copies of you that may be around.
> And regardless of your autocentric sense, you have a physical position and 
> associated reference frame relative to the fixed stars.
----------John wrote--------------------------------------------------------

Without your senses there is no way to even know where your brain is, so I sure 
don't see how it could have anything to do with consciousness or identity. For 
most of human history people thought the brain was an unimportant organ that had 

something to do with cooling the blood and the heart was the seat of 
consciousness; even though those ancient people literally didn't know where they 

were I still think they were conscious.
--------------------------------------------------------------
 
But that is no accident, John. You wouldn't have a brain at all if it weren't 
for your senses. In the study of natural history, there is a distinct process 
called cephalization that is observed across phyla of increasing complexity. 
Animals that don't move much like sponges and anemones don't need much in the 
way of senses and consequently don't need brains. As animals started moving, 
they developed senses like sight, smell, and hearing. The sense organs were were 
concentrated on the leading portion of the body in the accustomed direction of 
movement, because organisms needed to distinguish if they were moving toward 
predators or other hazards. To void signal propagation delays in processing 
sensory information from these sense organs, ganglia of nerve cells clustered 
immediately behind these sensory organs. These ganglia became the brain and the 
whole ensemble became the head.
 
But this feeds into my larger point, which is that the autocentric sense is not 
the soul or some metaphysical bullshit but an evolved brain function that allows 
you to distinguish yourself from rivals, potential mates, and the predator 
trying to eat you.  

Stuart LaForge 

"There is nothing wrong with America that faith, love of freedom, intelligence, 
and energy of her citizens cannot cure."- Dwight D. Eisenhower