[ExI] Rejecting Socrates/was Re: Libertarianism wins again...

[Brent Allsop]

Hi Kelly,

Good responses!

I have a question for you, do you believe we will ever approach perfect 
justice?  And if so, how much do you think the Gods that inherit an 
immortal heaven, will owe to those who created it for them, taking them 
billions of years of struggle, for free?

Out of everything humanity thinks about, what percentage of time do we 
spend on history, today, despite how much information we lack, or how 
hard it is to get what little we can get?  I'm sure we spend way more 
than 1% of all our time on history, but lets just stay conservative.  So 
even if a super AI, approaching infinite abilities, 1% of infinite is 
still approaching infinite.  And would such work, with the ultimate goal 
of achiving a history of knowing what every last human did and thought, 
their entire life?  And would working on and towards all this perfect 
justice and perfect history be nothing more than watching leave it to 
Beaver?

I believe we are not in a simulation for the very same reason I hope 
there is no sentient God of any kind hiding from us.  This is because 
creating such, and then hiding from us creations like that, would be 
inhumane, immoral and obviously, for so many reasons, unnecessary.  For 
example, we can create abstract simulations, that behave exactly like 
us, yet for which there is nothing like it to be such beings.  Such 
beings, even though they will act as if they are in pain, as they watch 
their loved one die, will not really phenomenally feel anything like we 
do...  Sure, it's not a great argument, but still, I certainly HOPE we 
are not in any kind of terrible simulation, and that there is some way 
to accomplish whatever such would accomplish, without us having to 
suffer through all this terrible primitive isolation...

You said you feel sorry for the future members of your religion.  I 
don't think it will be quite like that.  Emagine through some freak one 
time miracle, we managed to extract and reproduce a single human being 
from 50,000 years ago, and all of his life long experiences.  Certainly 
such a being would be very popular today, some would even consider that 
he would be worshiped, in a way, and given anything he wants, especially 
compared to the life he lived 50,000 years ago.  I think of it being 
more like that.  More of a respect for what he was and did, than seeking 
any kind of guidance from us, or anything.

So, you don't think I should wonder if those future AGIs will all know 
intimate details, far more than I can remember it myself, of just how 
successful my last sexual encounter with my wife was, how it felt for 
both of us, and all the rest of every intimate details about my entire 
mortal life?  Do you have any interest, at all,  of knowing all such 
about all of your ancestors, especially if such only took up less than 
1% of everything you can do?

Brent Allsop




On 7/26/2011 1:13 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Brent Allsop
> <brent.allsop at canonizer.com>  wrote:
>> Kelly,
>>
>> Are you kidding me?  Are you a transhumanist?  Have you not heard,
>> many times, of the advice of people like Kurzweil about the perils of
>> thinking linearly, instead of exponentially?  I suppose you think
>> beings in 2500 years, with shared matroshka brains, and more, will
>> have at most 10 to 20 or so people in their intimate social family
>> circle, only about 100 to 200 people in their extended social,
>> business, and religious circle, and on the order of 1000 to 2000
>> people in their historical and general knowledge of all historical
>> people they’ve learned about?  How many fingers and toes do you think
>> they will all have?  This is just primitive clueless monkey thought.
> Hold on there big guy!!  :-)   I believe that in the future there will
> be a billion billion conversations simultaneously taking place between
> all of us on all kinds of topics. We may merge into one superbrain, or
> maintain some semblance of individuality, I don't know about that...
> but, most of the interesting stuff said will have been said in the
> relatively near past. While our conversation here may be recorded, and
> technically remembered, I don't think it will have much impact.
>
> No, this is not monkey brain thinking, this is exponential thinking.
> And just as now, current events will be of more general interest to
> most of the conversations than ancient history. So I kind of stick
> with the idea that what we are saying here and now will not hold the
> rapt interest of AGIs in 2500 years.
>
>> Have you considered how many direct descendents we’ll have after 2500
>> years, that would not have existed, if it were not for you and I, and
>> this conversation we are now having?  Will they not all know every one
>> of the people we ever talked to or interacted with, in more intimate
>> detail, than even you can now manage to remember?  I bet all of them
>> will get quite a chuckle, for an eternity, out of you having said this
>> here and now! ;)
> Quite possibly.
>
>> Every last mortal human that ever existed, from Socrates to you and I,
>> is going to be worshiped as one of the very rare and very few mortal
>> creators, and their entire lives, known intimately.
> But will it be relevant to their daily lives? I wonder.
>
>> We will all be
>> one of the very few beings that created everything despite having
>> almost nothing and less than 100 years to work with.  There will be
>> endless historical simulations where our descendants will be reliving
>> and playing with each and every one of our lives – including details
>> of your early life that even you have already long since completely
>> forgotten or misremembered.
> You don't think they'll have better things to think about? What you
> are presenting is a future where I do the moral equivalent of sitting
> on the couch all day watching Leave it to Beaver. Nostalgia will only
> be so interesting for so long, IMHO.
>
>> They will be simulating – what if great
>> great^8 grandma had made this decision to support that
>> person/religion/political party, instead of this person, and on and on
>> in infinitely more detail than we can manage to grasp.
> How do you know you aren't a participant in such a simulation now? I
> often wonder myself if I am...
>
>> Every minor
>> bit any of us contributed to the creation of heaven will be infinitely
>> known, valued, and fully paid back with significant interest.  Have
>> you not considered how every little trivial thing you are doing, now,
>> helping to create all that, including this conversation, is earning
>> you an unimaginable deserving reward in heaven?
> Ah, no.
>
>> As all of our descendants continue to grow exponentially, filling the
>> entire universe, and approaching an infinite number of social beings,
>> non of whom would have existed, if it were not for everything you did…
>> Kelly Anderson is going to be one of the few mortal creators, to which
>> all of future society owes its entire existence to.  You will be
>> worshiped as no less than God, one of the few mortal creator ancestors
>> - every last intimate detail of your entire life worshiped in awe, for
>> an eternity, by all.
> I feel sorry then for the future members of my religion... ;-)
>
> -Kelly
>
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