[ExI] Two Japanese reactors on red alert

[Eugen Leitl]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 08:26:07PM +0100, Mirco Romanato wrote:

> Do Mussolini count as Hitler to declare you have lost the argument?

[x] you don't understand Godwin's law
 
> It is lovely when leftist lose arguments and turn to violence and
> threats of violence or dreaming violence.

Don't flatter yourself here. (And it is truly lovely to be called
a leftist).

> Berlusconi was victim of two attacks during his mandates.
> Violence is, probably, the only way leftists in Italy would be able to
> get rid of him, as the voters think differently.

Which is what I find most curious. Even for the usual Twilight
Zone that is today's voters behaviour, in a today's western 
democracy, the Berlusconi situation is a genuine anomaly. 
 
> >> The EU will not stop the same, simply because without cheap
> >> abundant energy there will be no economic recover.
> 
> > http://www.energyefficiencynews.com/i/3198/
> 
> This is bullshit.
> I know well that wind power need gas power station to work, because wind
> don't blow continuously and the grid don't like power fluctuations.

Do you realize that large fraction of renewable contribution
require agile response from the other plants on the grid, and that
large scale installations with 2-3 days of thermal inertia
fail the requirement? Gas turbines with second stage steam
actually do not too badly, achieving 60% efficiency at moderate
thermal inertia. I much prefer micro co-gen though. Especially
high-temperature direct methane fuel cell co-gen would be almost
perfect, if we had these, that is.

> Colder the climate, less wind you have.

Er. Does not. Quite. Work. That way.

> Wind cost 5 times (at least) more than nuclear power and coal.

Do you realize the large scale markets are realtime? That
there are spatial and temporal variations? That spatiotemporal
niche crossover happened a couple years ago and the niches
can only grow?

> You don't run foundries with mills nor with solar panels.

Energy is energy. See aluminum smelters in Iceland geothermal.
 
> Last fall/winter, the mills in Scotland stopped when the place had the
> worse winter in decades (second  time in a row). When people die because
> of the cold, what do you tell them. Capitalists hoarded the winds?
> Capitalist hoarded the sun?

I'm telling you "This is bulllllshit".
 
> >> Germany will not back down, because without nuclear power
> >> generators there will not be electricity to run factories and
> >> homes.
> 
> > You know, when they switched off these 7 nuclear reactors it's 
> > because they knew they could afford to.
> 
> The politics could afford it, for sure.

Which part of 'excess capacity' you don't understand? That, incidentally,
it's particularly renewable that matches the demand peak most closely,
and hence obliviates need for other peak?

> I'm not sure the people unemployed and that will stay unemployed because
> of the high cost of the energy will be able to afford it.

Employment and renewable use are poor correlates, at least as far
as Germany is concerned. And once again you miss the picture, because
expensive energy is much better than no energy at all. 
 
> I suppose they can afford to buy fossil fuels from dictators, religious
> nuts and leftist caudillos.

I agree fossil fuels are bad, mmhkay? You might have heard about
the peak fossil thing. 

> People in power often can afford many things people without power can
> not. The same is true for people receiving subsides.
> 
> >> As soon as the people will be without electric power or their
> >> electric bill will be too high (and industries will shut down
> >> because they can not afford the same bills) the political will will
> >> disappear.
> 
> > Do look at the numbers.
> 
> Do look at the prices.

Prices are frequently a poor proxy for underlying physical reality.
Do look at the numbers, not the prices. Prices must eventually follow,
but not quite yet.
 
> When solar or wind will be economically independent from subsides paid
> by nuclear and coal, they can argue as much as they want.

The connection to reality is weak in this one.

> When they will be as affordable and dependable as nuclear and coal power
> I could also listen to them.
> 
> >> Fears the fridge stop working beat the fear of nuclear power.
> 
> > It is interesting that nobody is mentioning that electricity as is
> > doesn't even begin to address the question of missing fossil liquids
> > and solids. Humanity is definitely overrated.
> 
> Power up electric cars and trucks with solar panels and wind.

Some slight problem: there are very few electric cars, almost
no electric trucks, and we're stuck with 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

so we yes, definitely, very much need to be able to produce
liquid and gaseous synfuels, and be it methanol or 
dimethylether-/tert-butylether. Which means you've been
barking up the wrong tree (and it's not even in the right
forest, but that doesn't actually surprise me).

> Humanity overrated? Maybe. Some humans that think to be better and born
> better? For sure.

Bzzt, you lost that argument. Better luck, next time.
 
> > I've switched my electricity provider to 100% renewable -- saves me
> > 200 EUR annually. I agree that all energy subsidies should be cut --
> > and I mean *all* of them. No more sweeping up things under the
> > carpet. Do the whole life cycle.
> 
> Eugene, if you go down this path you will find much affinity with
> Stefano Vaj. I'm sure he will be happy to welcome you in the mids of the
> Sovrumanists, if you wear chrome plated jackboots.

I don't know what you've been smoking, but I'm sure I'd like a 
bowlful. Booyoo, heady stuff.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
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