From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Oct 1 00:34:09 2011 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 02:34:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] millionaires and billionaires In-Reply-To: References: <00b601cc74df$a571a800$f054f800$@att.net> <1316228045.3871.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1188085758-1316609993-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-627627230-@b12.c32.bise6.blackberry> <564c83b7e30abb6662a3955c665cc895.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Sep 2011, John Grigg wrote: > I've found this thread fascinating, and will now add some of my own > thoughts. I used to work in the hospitality field, and so got to meet my > share of millionaires and even a few billionaires. I found many of these > people (especially the older ones) to be courteous and friendly, while I > remember a young trust fund venture capitalist (family business) who was so > obnoxiously arrogant to everyone, I wanted to deck him hard for his own > good. > > > A rather eccentric and very tall, gangly old man (dressed like he was an old > west undertaker) came to the lodge to visit, and he would just lounge around > on some big rocks outside and watch the world go by. I went out to say > hello and see if he needed anything, and I got a Yoda-like sharing of wisdom > from him. I was later told he was one of the wealthiest people in the > state. So, yet another mail with interesting real life observations :-). Just to add a bit to yours and Kelly's postings (because it seems this thread is going to dry soon), two reflections: 1. It is quite possible there exists a group of wealthy people, whose only contact with physical world is by hands of their workers/servants. Since I suspect they mostly hang up with their likes, it is hard to say anything certain about their psyche, morale or character. This remainds me of one s-f short story about times when humans will overcome death. Those born mortal and undergoing therapy in their later lifes are somewhat able to find understanding with those who underwent therapy in their youth. But those who were born immortal had tendency to be, in simple words, assholes asking for a good trashing. Unfortunately, I don't remember much more, including names and title. 2. If a history is to teach us something, Polish history including, here is an example of historical super-rich. Also known as magnaterie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnate In later ages of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, they ruled over waste areas of land and had their own armies, very real and well equipped. From what I have heard/read, they also waged conflicts with our neighboring states (looking for betterment of their personal fortunes) and from time to time the whole country had to pay for this. I think they contributed to demise of Poland because to perform their powerplays unopposed, it was good for them to make a big group of poorer nobility into their clientele, either by direct bribing or by ways of employment. This created a large "noble mob", who believed they were acting in Poland's best interest (at least they made lots of noice about it) while doing whatever their patron asked them to do. In effect, making any positive change would become impossible, as this could strip power from magnates and, obviously, they were against any such change. Closer to the infamous partitions, magnates were stupid enough to ask neighbor states (at the time, rising powers while Poland slipped down) for help against each other - thinking they manipulate those states for their own goals, they in fact became manipulated puppets. To make my description a bit more just, magnates have also funded hospitals, orphanages, libraries and schools. They were doing a lot to introduce modern agriculture and industry into their domains. They also built towns from time to time (well, not with their hands). So a full picture of super-rich is going to be painted in a variety of colors. Also, I'm not sure if there is any social system that prevents the rise of super-rich people (assuming rich is not only about monetary wealth). And once they enter the scene, they gradually start acting against the system because they have to maintain their status quo. They also act against their rivals, but contrary to the system, rivals are able to defend themselves. Once again, proper education of the masses could be a strong deterrent. > Dennis May continues: > You meet millionaires all the time and likely don't know it. > I can't say I've ever met a billionaire. I think the extent of the > rich I've ever been around is in the under 50 million range. > Most millionaires are not cocky about their money. Most > people who act cocky about money are immature and > likely wannabes in debt. > >>> > > > This is very true. My eyes were opened by reading the great book, "The > Millionaire Next Door." I recommend it to everyone. I find most Two books on my bookshelf cry to be read, both by Richard Conniff: 1. The Natural History of the Rich: A Field Guide 2. The Ape in the Corner Office: How to Make Friends, Win Fights and Work Smarter by Understanding Human Nature >From a very brief look inside, they promise to describe few things about rich folks. I guess it is from one of those books I got a story about 5-millionaires being very unhappy because they couldn't have afforded a house in Aspen, Colorado. And flying private jet for hollidays there. Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Oct 1 03:01:56 2011 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 05:01:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] millionaires and billionaires In-Reply-To: References: <00b601cc74df$a571a800$f054f800$@att.net> <1316228045.3871.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1188085758-1316609993-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-627627230-@b12.c32.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2011, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Yes, but "rich", especially from a sociological/psychological POV, is > a purely relative concept. Yes, I am wealthy compared to myself twenty years ago... as measured in raw computing power available under my fingers :-) . In 1991, factoring RSA-100 number took few days on a MasPar supercomputer. Few years ago the same feat took about 14 hrs on Athlon XP and 6 on somewhat more costly Opteron. Nowadays, multicore chips are commodity and they say Athlon64 takes on such number in about 4 hours. In 1992, factoring a RSA-110 number took a month on (possibly another) MasPar. Some time later, Athlon XP did the same in 58 hours. However, methods used now and then are different ==> Wealth comes not only from physical increase but also from knowledge of how to apply this in a better way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_numbers#RSA-100 http://www.ontko.com/pub/rayo/primes/hr_rsa.txt http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ggnfs/message/1149 http://www.math.ttu.edu/~cmonico/software/ggnfs/factorizations.html > At most, wealth is going to become increasingly more symbolic in > nature, as it has already done for centuries now. Right. In a way, money are a symbol, so we are already far from counting cows and slaves. No need to wait for a future :-). AFAIK no matter what the nature of wealth is going to be, one thing will not change - it will be measured by hard to obtain goods. Just as it was in the past and is today. Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 1 04:22:40 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 21:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <007b01cc7fb0$4114de00$c33e9a00$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317442960.61613.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Fri, 9/30/11, spike wrote: "To compare neutrinos to electrons and protons assumes they have mass.? If they do not have mass, then they must be going exactly at c.? If they do have mass, they must be going slower.? Otherwise, our understanding of physics is all wrong." A neutrino must have mass but not necessarily real mass. According to Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity the energy of a particle moving at velocity v is mc^2 divided by the square root of (1-v^2/c^2) . The energy of a neutrino must be real, because sometimes we can see it do work, but if it's moving faster than light and v is greater than c then the square root of (1-v^2/c^2) is imaginary, so if the energy is to be real the term mc^2 must be imaginary also so they cancel out, the speed of light can't be imaginary and the only other term in the numerator is m, so if a neutrino is moving faster than light and has real energy it must have an imaginary mass;and thus the faster it goes the less energy it has. ?"Oh this is exciting" ? Yes, but if it turns out that this was all caused because somebody forgot to convert inches to centimeters or something I'm going to be pissed. ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 1 04:28:27 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 21:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1317443307.57812.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Fri, 9/30/11, Keith Henson wrote: "And the point of this 10^15 larger brain that thinks no faster than a human would be?" It would have 10^15 times more memory than a human, and be able to think about 10^15 times more things at the same time than a human. ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 1 04:55:44 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 21:55:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <1317442960.61613.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <007b01cc7fb0$4114de00$c33e9a00$@att.net> <1317442960.61613.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d001cc7ff6$611a07c0$234e1740$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of john clark Subject: Re: [ExI] More on Neutrinos On Fri, 9/30/11, spike wrote: >>."To compare neutrinos to electrons and protons assumes they have mass. If they do not have mass, then they must be going exactly at c. If they do have mass, they must be going slower. Otherwise, our understanding of physics is all wrong." >.A neutrino must have mass but not necessarily real mass. so if a neutrino is moving faster than light and has real energy it must have an imaginary mass;and thus the faster it goes the less energy it has. Ja, I have done that derivation, but the whole imaginary mass thing just gives me the heebies. I am struggling to not be such a physics church lady however, keeping an open mind. The imaginary mass notion comes up in gravitational derivations as well. I recall from a long time ago trying to figure out the shape of the event horizon if you have two black holes of ten solar masses each, co-orbiting at 1 AU. Now imagine a particle coming in from far away along a line about which the two black holes co-orbit. I vaguely recall some interesting consequences of that thought experiment. I need to fish it out of my green notebooks. It's something like you can use emission of imaginary mass particles to balance the energy. oy, it has been so long. >>. "Oh this is exciting" >.Yes, but if it turns out that this was all caused because somebody forgot to convert inches to centimeters or something I'm going to be pissed.. John K Clark I would have dismissed it as an error long before now had it been anyone but CERN. Those guys have buttloads of credibility, and you can be sure they don't want to waste any of it. I can imagine they checked and rechecked a dozen times before anyone was allowed to say anything. Even if it turns out to be an error, the error itself is likely to be highly educational at this point. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 1 05:12:23 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:12:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <1317443307.57812.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1317443307.57812.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d801cc7ff8$b4cd1d60$1e675820$@att.net> On Behalf Of john clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Slow thinking >.On Fri, 9/30/11, Keith Henson wrote: "And the point of this 10^15 larger brain that thinks no faster than a human would be?" Keith >.It would have 10^15 times more memory than a human, and be able to think about 10^15 times more things at the same time than a human. John K Clark I have stayed out of this discussion of latency in an MBrain, but do keep in mind there are a bunch of variations on the MBrain theme which complicate the question of latency vs node size. For instance, we can have an MBrain with SBrains orbiting within: an SBrain is a cluster of a few thousand, a few million or a few billion nodes which co-orbit a common center of mass, while that common center of mass orbits the star. This creates something analogous to a human city or population center, where local latency is very low. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 07:55:31 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 08:55:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <00d001cc7ff6$611a07c0$234e1740$@att.net> References: <007b01cc7fb0$4114de00$c33e9a00$@att.net> <1317442960.61613.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d001cc7ff6$611a07c0$234e1740$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/1 spike wrote: > The imaginary mass notion comes up in gravitational derivations as well. > I recall from a long time ago trying to figure out the shape of the event horizon if you have two black holes > of ten solar masses each, co-orbiting at 1 AU.? Now imagine a particle coming in from far away along a line > about which the two black holes co-orbit.? I vaguely recall some interesting consequences of that thought > experiment.? I need to fish it out of my green notebooks.? It?s something like you can use emission of > imaginary mass particles to balance the energy? oy, it has been so long. > > News just in............ New Constraints on Neutrino Velocities Authors: Andrew G. Cohen, Sheldon L. Glashow (Submitted on 29 Sep 2011) Abstract: The OPERA collaboration has claimed that muon neutrinos with mean energy of 17.5 GeV travel 730 km from CERN to the Gran Sasso at a speed exceeding that of light by about 7.5 km/s or 25 ppm. However, we show that such superluminal neutrinos would lose energy rapidly via the bremsstrahlung of electron-positron pairs ($\nu\rightarrow \nu+e^-+e^+$). For the claimed superluminal neutrino velocity and at the stated mean neutrino energy, we find that most of the neutrinos would have suffered several pair emissions en route, causing the beam to be depleted of higher energy neutrinos. Thus we refute the superluminal interpretation of the OPERA result. Furthermore, we appeal to Super-Kamiokande and IceCube data to establish strong new limits on the superluminal propagation of high-energy neutrinos. ------------------- BillK From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 08:05:51 2011 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 01:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <00d001cc7ff6$611a07c0$234e1740$@att.net> References: <007b01cc7fb0$4114de00$c33e9a00$@att.net> <1317442960.61613.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d001cc7ff6$611a07c0$234e1740$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317456351.55917.YahooMailNeo@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ? ________________________________ From: spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] More on Neutrinos ? >? >From:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of john clark >Subject: Re: [ExI] More on Neutrinos >? >On Fri, 9/30/11, spike wrote: > > >>>?"To compare neutrinos to electrons and protons assumes they have mass.? If they do not have mass, then they must be going exactly at c.? If they do have mass, they must be going slower.? Otherwise, our understanding of physics is all wrong." >>?A neutrino must have mass but not necessarily real mass? so if a neutrino is moving faster than light and has real energy it must have an imaginary mass;and thus the faster it goes the less energy it has? >Ja, I have done that derivation, but the whole imaginary mass thing just gives me the heebies.? I am struggling to not be such a physics church lady however, keeping an open mind. As cool as this discovery it is not the first example of either imaginary mass or FTL. Both phenomena have been observed in quantum-tunneling by electrons and photons. For example laser photons have been recorded leaving negative refractive-index material lens?before they entered them on them on the oppsite side. I wonder if the neutrinos aren't somehow taking a short-cut through space-time. It boggles the mind that they randomly swith flavors by distance travelled with 3 different masses. If mass-kinetic energy is conserved, then that means that the neutrino must?nearly instaneously change speed numerous times through-out its?journey from CERN to OPERA. That's crazy, especially if it's FTL the whole way!? ? Stuart LaForge "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things bought and sold are legislators." - P. J. O'Rourke From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 1 15:05:48 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 08:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1317481548.56838.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Sat, 10/1/11, BillK wrote: News just in............ It seems to me that at this point we don't need yet another theoretical explanation of why the OPERA results just can't be true, we already know that current theory says it just can't be true; what we need are new experimental results that either refute or confirm OPERA. And if it is confirmed (a very big if) then it doesn't matter if theoreticians say it just can't be true, nature doesn't care if scientists can explain it or not, that's their problem not nature's. ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 16:50:10 2011 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:50:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:00 AM, "spike" wrote: > On Behalf Of john clark >>.On Fri, 9/30/11, Keith Henson wrote: > > "And the point of this 10^15 larger brain that thinks no faster than a human > would be?" ?Keith >>.It would have 10^15 times more memory than a human, and be able to think > about 10^15 times more things at the same time than a human. John K Clark Not impressed. You are talking about something that isn't that far off of the present where we have ~10^10 people and with access to information on that kind of multiple through the internet. > > I have stayed out of this discussion of latency in an MBrain, but do keep in > mind there are a bunch of variations on the MBrain theme which complicate > the question of latency vs node size. ?For instance, we can have an MBrain > with SBrains orbiting within: an SBrain is a cluster of a few thousand, a > few million or a few billion nodes which co-orbit a common center of mass, > while that common center of mass orbits the star. ?This creates something > analogous to a human city or population center, where local latency is very > low. > Human clock rate is perhaps 200 Hz. I don't know where computers will limit, but we are already GHz rates, if we get up to 200 GHz, latency becomes a big problem with maximum dimensions for a brain being in the mm range and the subjective time to get a message back from the far side of an MBrain is 40,000 years. All of a sudden, galactic communication problems have come to the solar system. Power, cooling and speed of light delays all conspire against brains or even civilizations being physically large if they are running at high clock rates. Round trip to the moon is about 2.5 seconds. At an easy million to one subjective speed up, it would take about 29 days to get a message back. Even the 60 ms low latency optical fibers from New York to London would seem like 16 hours. It occurred to me just now that this is an alternative answer to the Fermi question. Once intelligent life forms start moving into faster hardware, it may be that they can't leave their home planet without getting hopelessly out of touch with whatever is going on. Keith From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:18:41 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:18:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > Human clock rate is perhaps 200 Hz. ?I don't know where computers will > limit, but we are already GHz rates, if we get up to 200 GHz, latency > becomes a big problem with maximum dimensions for a brain being in the > mm range and the subjective time to get a message back from the far > side of an MBrain is 40,000 years. ?All of a sudden, galactic > communication problems have come to the solar system. > > Power, cooling and speed of light delays all conspire against brains > or even civilizations being physically large if they are running at > high clock rates. ?Round trip to the moon is about 2.5 seconds. ?At an > easy million to one subjective speed up, it would take about 29 days > to get a message back. ?Even the 60 ms low latency optical fibers from > New York to London would seem like 16 hours. > > It occurred to me just now that this is an alternative answer to the > Fermi question. ?Once intelligent life forms start moving into faster > hardware, it may be that they can't leave their home planet without > getting hopelessly out of touch with whatever is going on. > > Yup. We discussed this in April this year. (You as well!). :) BillK From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 1 17:39:14 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 10:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1317490754.72013.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Sat, 10/1/11, Keith Henson wrote: "It would have 10^15 times more memory than a human, and be able to think about 10^15 times more things at the same time than a human." "Not impressed.? You are talking about something that isn't that far off of the present where we have ~10^10 people and with access to information on that kind of multiple through the internet." Right, not far from what we have now, provided there were 10^5 more people than there are on this planet, and all of them really did have instant access to all the world's libraries, and they were all totally interconnected so they knew what each other was doing, and they were all working harmoniously toward the same thing, and each one thought several million times faster than they do now.? ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 1 20:09:08 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 13:09:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Keith Henson ... >...It occurred to me just now that this is an alternative answer to the Fermi question. Once intelligent life forms start moving into faster hardware, it may be that they can't leave their home planet without getting hopelessly out of touch with whatever is going on... Keith Excellent Keith. A solution similar to this was proposed by me about a decade ago: that distant MBrains do not communicate with us because it isn't worth it. They can't get replies back in any reasonable time. Local communications are so much more valuable than anything they can invest in elsewhere that they don't bother. The closest analogy we have is that the overwhelming majority of people today spend more time reading stuff on the internet than we do reading Shakespeare. spike From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 23:08:10 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> References: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317510490.35757.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >... On Behalf Of Keith Henson ... >...It occurred to me just now that this is an alternative answer to the Fermi question.? Once intelligent life forms start moving into faster hardware, it may be that they can't leave their home planet without getting hopelessly out of touch with whatever is going on... Keith ? Spike wrote: > Excellent Keith.? A solution similar to this was proposed by me about a decade ago: that distant MBrains do not communicate with us because it isn't worth it.? They can't get replies back in any reasonable time.? Local communications are so much more valuable than anything they can invest in elsewhere that they don't bother.? The closest analogy we have is that the overwhelming majority of people today spend more time reading stuff on the internet than we do reading Shakespeare. ,,,spike Sounds like Zardoz beat everyone to this. They went to space and found it was another dead end. Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 2 05:23:00 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 22:23:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <1317510490.35757.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> <1317510490.35757.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <022901cc80c3$5b198940$114c9bc0$@att.net> . The closest analogy we have is that the overwhelming majority of people today spend more time reading stuff on the internet than we do reading Shakespeare.spike Hmm, I can do better than that. The reason why the cosmic sphere is quiet is a reason analogous to why everyone here has online friends to which we tap out messages regularly, why most of us here have friended strangers on Facebook, but none of us have a pen pal in Africa. The value of the information we get from the pen pal wouldn't be worth the effort to keep the dialog going. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 2 13:59:51 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 06:59:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] FW: from a. grimes: Slow thinking Message-ID: <026001cc810b$8e5dff50$ab19fdf0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: Alan Grimes [mailto:agrimes at speakeasy.net] Subject: Re: [ExI] Slow thinking spike wrote: >> ...It occurred to me just now that this is an alternative answer to the Fermi question... spike Yay! This might be wonderful news. It means that all I need to do to survive is find a dark-rock or something more than a dozen or so AU away and I might not be bothered by the uploaders. Now all I have to do is build myself a base out there before the acursed computronium shockwave hits... =P Alan -- E T F N H E D E D Powers are not rights. From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 22:33:29 2011 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 16:33:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <022901cc80c3$5b198940$114c9bc0$@att.net> References: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> <1317510490.35757.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <022901cc80c3$5b198940$114c9bc0$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/1 spike : > but none of us have a > pen pal in Africa.? The value of the information we get from the pen pal > wouldn?t be worth the effort to keep the dialog going. I have a pen pal in Africa... we use email these days though... :-) I also have a huge number of Africans that want to be my friend!!! I don't think we'll go there though... LOL -Kelly From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 3 06:08:44 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 23:08:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] central collection place for odd animal behaviors Message-ID: <032d01cc8192$e8dce220$ba96a660$@att.net> I have spent countless hours observing beasts, yet with YouTube and its many equivalents, we get to see new and crazy stuff all the time. In order to make some kind of overall progress in understanding beast behavior, we need some kind of index to collect references to these kinds of super-rare observations. I have never seen anything like this: http://www.flixxy.com/epic-cat-fight.htm The two birds were looking for trouble bigtime, yet it seems like they somehow sensed that neither cat would kick their feathery asses. They seemed to know that as soon as one cat was distracted, the other cat would come after the one cat instead of hassling the birds. So the birds took advantage of the situation, and got the cats fighting each other. How could we index these kinds of observatons? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 09:49:57 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 11:49:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 October 2011 01:04, Keith Henson wrote: > And the point of this 10^15 larger brain that thinks no faster than a > human would be? > If M-brains are ultimately... brains, what else is new? Our tech is already going from (relatively) low-latency, high-frequency, broad-bandwith, closely knit systems to systems much more similar to biological nervous systems, that is (relatively) low-frequency, high-latency, narrow-bandwith systems but with increasing parallelism and redundancy and architectural complexity. Since I still do not have my 10Ghz processor under my desk extrapolated in the nineties, I suspect this to be a generalised trend, but at the other extreme one should consider that the most powerful "computer" today in use is probably Folding at Home, where processes easily take weeks to speak with one another. I would say that if we also end up switching from silicon to... carbon (as in biochips, microtubules, etc.), this is really wet transhumanism coming back with a revenge. :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Mon Oct 3 09:08:42 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 10:08:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Beyond Human event (Saturday October 8th, Birkbeck College) Message-ID: Dear All - Just a quick reminder for anyone in or near the London area that there is a day of Transhumanist & Futurist discussion covering a wide range of topics being held at Birkbeck College, in the Bloomsbury area (near Goodge Street or Russell Square tube stations) next Saturday, October 8th. The event is free, with no registration, but it is recommended that you arrive early to avoid disappointment if we reach maximum capacity. This event is being organised by Humanity+ UK, in association with Virtual Futures, London Futurists, and Zero State. *"Beyond Human*: Rethinking the Technological Extension of the Human Condition" http://humanityplus.org.uk/2011/08/21/beyond-human-london-sat-8th-oct/ For our distant friends, all talks will made made available on youtube after the event, on the joint UKH+ / ZS channel: http://www.youtube.com/koanphilosopher - A http://humanityplus.org.uk http://zerostate.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 3 11:12:25 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:12:25 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111003111225.GK25711@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 11:49:57AM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote: > If M-brains are ultimately... brains, what else is new? They aren't. They're the physical layer of a postecosystem. > Our tech is already going from (relatively) low-latency, high-frequency, > broad-bandwith, closely knit systems to systems much more similar to > biological nervous systems, that is (relatively) low-frequency, > high-latency, narrow-bandwith systems but with increasing parallelism and > redundancy and architectural complexity. There are large populations of highly diverse critters present. The size distribution will probably follow a power law, with a cut-off at the top. It is perfectly feasible to have extremely large (kilolighyears and more) sizes as only top-level processes are slow (but damn deep). It is not possible for human equivalents to interact with such top layer processes sensibly. But you'll probably find even their parasites extremely smart. > Since I still do not have my 10Ghz processor under my desk extrapolated in > the nineties, I suspect this to be a generalised trend, but at the other > extreme one should consider that the most powerful "computer" today in use > is probably Folding at Home, where processes easily take weeks to speak with > one another. > > I would say that if we also end up switching from silicon to... carbon (as > in biochips, microtubules, etc.), this is really wet transhumanism coming > back with a revenge. :-) Anything solvated would be much too slow. In fact, buckytronics and graphenes are degraded when mucked up, and/or running hot. So there might be just radiation-cooled tensegrity structures without actual coolant (helium or such) flow. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 3 11:56:57 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:56:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <00d801cc7ff8$b4cd1d60$1e675820$@att.net> References: <1317443307.57812.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d801cc7ff8$b4cd1d60$1e675820$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111003115656.GW25711@leitl.org> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 10:12:23PM -0700, spike wrote: > I have stayed out of this discussion of latency in an MBrain, but do keep in > mind there are a bunch of variations on the MBrain theme which complicate > the question of latency vs node size. For instance, we can have an MBrain > with SBrains orbiting within: an SBrain is a cluster of a few thousand, a > few million or a few billion nodes which co-orbit a common center of mass, > while that common center of mass orbits the star. This creates something > analogous to a human city or population center, where local latency is very > low. The relativistic latency is a red herring. Biology is limited to 120 m/s signal propagation velocity, yet it has no issues occupying an entire planet (or infinite amount space, if given enough time to expand into it). In postbiology, the fastest you'll get when the speed of light in vacuum is like speed of sound to you right now -- at much smaller geometries, of course. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 14:41:05 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 07:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Is there a potential libertarianism / democracy tension? In-Reply-To: <4E851B2B.7020806@moulton.com> References: <1317045564.66819.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317122548.28251.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317136675.62409.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317312569.98708.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E851B2B.7020806@moulton.com> Message-ID: <1317652865.61488.YahooMailNeo@web160619.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:28 PM F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com?wrote: > I would? like to emphasise the point that Dan makes.? Much of the >?recent discussion has been on topics which directly or at least >?partially have been covered decades ago in works like Anarchy, > State and Utopia by Nozick; and while I and a lot of others do not >?agree with it totally we recognise the value of the work.? For people >?really interested in the topic becoming at least familiar with the basics >?is a good place to start. I agree for the most part. I would add that familiarizing oneself with a philosophy does not necessarily means agreeing with or adhering to?it. So, one can read Nozick -- and, I hope, read him critically -- and not need to agree with his every word. ? Where I might disagree is that Nozick's book?is a good place to start. I felt the book was a jumble rather than a coherent treatise. My reason for bringing Nozick up, however, was that he was one of the more well known deep thinkers amongst libertarians and he recognized, back in the early 1970s, that libertarianism was not synonymous with democracy and that the two were not necessarily compatible. What's more, Nozick was, at that time, a minarchist. So, unlike Rothbard, who was an anarchist and would naturally have a "tension" with democracy, here was a libertarian who tried to ground government in libertarian principles and yet did see an antagonism or tension with democracy. (And other such well known libertarians who noted this antagonism abound: Rand (even if she wouldn't call herself a libertarian), Hospers, David Friedman, Walter Block, and many more recent thinkers*.) ? All of this said, Nozick did have an impact -- partly of rebutting Rawls. (Which is not to say Nozick himself wasn't rebutted and, unlike Rawls or even other libertarian luminaries like Rothbard, Nozick never formed a circle around or, to my knowledge, tried his hand at activism. I believe he just wrote the book and moved on to other things.) ? Regards, ? Dan ? * Of course, Friedman (David not Milton), Block,?and Hospers are still alive, AFAIK. From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 3 15:06:55 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:06:55 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111003150655.GF25711@leitl.org> On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 09:50:10AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote: > >>.It would have 10^15 times more memory than a human, and be able to think > > about 10^15 times more things at the same time than a human. John K Clark > > Not impressed. You are talking about something that isn't that far > off of the present where we have ~10^10 people and with access to > information on that kind of multiple through the internet. Solar output output seems good for some 10^24 to 10^25 human equivalents, and probably at significant speedup to boot. > Human clock rate is perhaps 200 Hz. I don't know where computers will Humans have no clock, actually. The time domain of most neural processes is roughly in ms range, some of maybe slightly lower (particularly, if you're a bat). > limit, but we are already GHz rates, if we get up to 200 GHz, latency How long does your computer take to stream once through its entire main core? Somewhere between 1-10 Hz. Now add random access. Maybe some 0.1-0.01 Hz. Now add not mere GBytes, but a data structure loosely equivalent to the network between your ears. Not so many fHz, now. > becomes a big problem with maximum dimensions for a brain being in the > mm range and the subjective time to get a message back from the far > side of an MBrain is 40,000 years. All of a sudden, galactic Are you often concerned what happens somewhere in a particular location in a particular time in Australian outback, or African veldt? Which animals is munching on that particular blade of grass? Why did that rice sack topple in a street crossing in Baoshan? You likely don't know, and very likely don't care. > communication problems have come to the solar system. You call it communication, I call it living. > Power, cooling and speed of light delays all conspire against brains > or even civilizations being physically large if they are running at > high clock rates. Round trip to the moon is about 2.5 seconds. At an > easy million to one subjective speed up, it would take about 29 days > to get a message back. Even the 60 ms low latency optical fibers from > New York to London would seem like 16 hours. > > It occurred to me just now that this is an alternative answer to the > Fermi question. Once intelligent life forms start moving into faster > hardware, it may be that they can't leave their home planet without > getting hopelessly out of touch with whatever is going on. I haven't yet heard that particular objection. This week, I mean. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 15:13:42 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:13:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future Message-ID: I have beating this drum for a while now, and I am happy to see some converging voices: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278758/end-future-peter-thiel?page=1. The issue remains only too often "can be done, cannot be done" as if everything that can be done is going to happen by itself, or out of extrapolations of past trends. See the debate on AI. Well, this is *not* the case. This is why I am speaking at the upcoming London "Beyond Human" event on "How to make a Singularity happen". -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Oct 3 15:30:00 2011 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:30:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <022901cc80c3$5b198940$114c9bc0$@att.net> References: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> <1317510490.35757.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <022901cc80c3$5b198940$114c9bc0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, spike wrote: > > > > > > . The closest analogy we have is that the > overwhelming majority of people today spend more time reading stuff on the > internet than we do reading Shakespeare.spike > >> > > Hmm, I can do better than that. > > > > The reason why the cosmic sphere is quiet is a reason analogous to why > everyone here has online friends to which we tap out messages regularly, why > most of us here have friended strangers on Facebook, but none of us have a > pen pal in Africa. The value of the information we get from the pen pal > wouldn't be worth the effort to keep the dialog going. > > > > spike Well, for some hard to understand reason, a number of people here assumes that staying inside closed information system and gossiping for ethernity is better than going around. And this is proposed as a future for entities much more clever than humans. Frankly, if I had only gossiping awaiting me for the next bazillion years, I would consider pulling the plug from myself at once, before I turn into incoherent babbling cyberidiot or before I come to repeating same things over and over in a trillion years long loop. On the other hand: communications and transport costs between America and Europe are prohibitive for cockroaches (there are all kinds of barriers here - cockroach endurance over the ocean, not enough innovation, not much interest etc). But even if one of us boards a plane and comes to the other place, what would we tell to those other cockroaches? What would we tell to our own ones? Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 3 15:30:31 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:30:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> References: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111003153031.GJ25711@leitl.org> On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 01:09:08PM -0700, spike wrote: > Excellent Keith. A solution similar to this was proposed by me about a > decade ago: that distant MBrains do not communicate with us because it isn't New volcanic islands, just emerged from the waves, never get colonized. They remain forever barren. It's just not worth it. Making seeds, germinating? Nah. Too much work. People never leave their houses. New houses never get built, even if adjacent land is Kowloon. > worth it. They can't get replies back in any reasonable time. Local Christopher Columbus's fleet never launched. Because they couldn'get replies back from them in reasonable time, so America was never settled (and, of course, it could never have been settled, as it was completely barren, see above). I think Spike can't possibly exist, so his point can't right. QED. > communications are so much more valuable than anything they can invest in > elsewhere that they don't bother. The closest analogy we have is that the > overwhelming majority of people today spend more time reading stuff on the > internet than we do reading Shakespeare. I hear a rumor (as I never can leave my house, I'm not sure) that there are 7 gigamonkeys on this planet, and they're not all sitting on top of each other. There all whole settled continents, purportedly! And these enterprising primates are even sending hardware outside of the solar system, where they cannot possible wait long enough for the data to come in https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Voyager_1 -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 3 16:15:06 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 09:15:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future >.I have beating this drum for a while now, and I am happy to see some converging voices: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278758/end-future-peter-thiel?page=1. -- Stefano Vaj Excellent Stefano! I glanced at the article quickly, as we all often do, read a few sentences and noticed that every single sentence is filled with interesting information and insightful comments. So I read it all, growing more impressed all the way, then after the fact discovered it was written by Peter Thiel. I have met him personally, heard his talks at the Singularity conferences. Do watch this very impressive guy, read everything he posts. He is one of the extraordinary ones whose voice needs to be heard. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 16:48:47 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 09:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Billions of Interstellar Planets In-Reply-To: <201109301614.p8UGEP82014815@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <1317241847.4267.YahooMailNeo@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <201109301411.p8UEBXiD028032@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20110930143142.GU25711@leitl.org> <201109301614.p8UGEP82014815@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1317660527.8068.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On Friday, September 30, 2011 12:13 PM David Lubkin > wrote: > Eugen replied: > >> If you're solid state, self-healing, fully static and relativistic, >> time and space is of no essence. In fact longer hops will be better >> for the cruise duty cycle, and will assert you're keeping ahead of >> the joneses. > > I am not at present solid state, etc. Given what we know, I am more > confident of my personal prospects for an indefinitely long lifespan > from repairing and augmenting my current form than from migration > to a different substrate. > > Repair in situ is essentially a modest improvement on nature. > Solid state sentient life is conjecture, as is migration from meat to > chips, as is a CELSS sufficient for an interstellar journey. > > As a cautious man, I like having the option of getting to another > star system with (more or less) my current body, long-established > propulsion and vehicle, and never being more than a short hop > from an outpost of civilization. Regarding CELSS, interstellar planets or ice worlds and such would allow a weaker form of this because one could use the bodies as resources, heat sinks, and the like. E.g., if your habitat is near or in an ice world, you might not have to worry about miniscule losses of volatiles for thousands of years as you might effectively be able to get more of these from the ice world rather than trying to recover them at ultra-high efficiency. ? Also, regarding current biological bodies, I'm sure many would opt to migrate to and across space were the technology available to do so now rather than wait around for migration to solid state. Even were we close to the latter, if the former existed now, I still think many would opt for it anyhow. Yes, some here would disagree with that choice, but I still think many would make it. ? Regards, ? Dan From amon at doctrinezero.com Mon Oct 3 16:02:01 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:02:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] A new philosophy of total revolution Message-ID: http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/a-new-philosophy-of-total-revolution-kalkinism/ *"A new philosophy of total revolution".* I hope you don't mind my posting this link here, but it is relevant to contemporary political struggle, notions of self-awareness and spirituality, and transhumanism. I don't know of any single list (except perhaps Doctrine Zero ) which counts all of these things as its typical fare, so I hope that one common factor will be enough. The ideas are necessarily extremely broad, as they are working from first principle. I intend to "fill in the blanks" over the next few months. - Amon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 3 17:39:49 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 10:39:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <20111003153031.GJ25711@leitl.org> References: <01ae01cc8075$fabb9c70$f032d550$@att.net> <20111003153031.GJ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <03b301cc81f3$73a7e200$5af7a600$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl ... >...I think Spike can't possibly exist, so his point can't right. QED. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl HA! Got you there Gene. One of those smart cats from a long time ago commented "I think, therefore I am." Well sure, but any good Bayesian would point out that there are other possibilities which arise if we set up a simple 2x2 matrix, with think/no think on the vertical and I am/I ain't on the horizontal. All Decartes is claiming is that he is up in quadrant 1, and that he is only eliminating one of the quadrants: specifically I think I ain't. He still hasn't done anything to deal with the other two, the I don't think I am, and I don't think I ain't. He doesn't offer any commentary about what you be if you don't think. Or something. >... New volcanic islands, just emerged from the waves, never get colonized... But to your point, colonization does not require communication with the target star. Using your analogy, the Europeans did not look for mail or newspapers from the new world before they set out. They just went there and moved in. spike From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 18:20:13 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 11:20:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> Message-ID: >>?I have beating this drum for a while now, and I am happy to see some >> converging voices: > http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278758/end-future-peter-thiel?page=1. > > Excellent Stefano!? I glanced at the article quickly, as we all often do, > read a few sentences and noticed that every single sentence is filled with > interesting information and insightful comments.? So I read it all, growing > more impressed all the way, then after the fact discovered it was written by > Peter Thiel.? I have met him? personally, heard his talks at the Singularity > conferences.? Do watch this very impressive guy, read everything he posts. > He is one of the extraordinary ones whose voice needs to be heard. I had exactly the opposite reaction. It struck me as a lot of bawwing and nothing on how to actually fix the problem. Analysis and introspection about the current situation, are only useful insofar as they point their way to solutions. Analysis about how terrible everything is, conducted only for its own sake (and/or the emotional release from affirming that nothing oneself can do matters), is a form of masturbation. Specifically, it is called "disasterbation". From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 19:51:19 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Monday, October 3, 2011 2:20 PM Adrian Tymes atymes at gmail.com?wrote: > I had exactly the opposite reaction.? It struck me as a lot of bawwing >?and nothing on how to actually fix the problem. > > Analysis and introspection about the current situation, are only >?useful insofar as they point their way to solutions.? Analysis about >?how terrible everything is, conducted only for its own sake (and/or >?the emotional release from affirming that nothing oneself can do >?matters), is a form of masturbation.? Specifically, it is called >?"disasterbation". I haven't yet finished reading the piece, but your comment remnds me of something Caplan wrote in his _The Myth of the Rational Voter_. It was specifically about pessimistic bias: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Rational_Voter#Pessimistic_bias I bring this up because things might not be as bleak as many are making them out to be. Recall just a few years ago, in the US, some were forecasting 10USD a gallon for gas. Well, gas prices fell. Granted, that's not a knockdown argument against pessimistic bias, but it should call into question some of the gloom and doom predictions that seem to, zombielike, rise up again and again. (Reminds me of a quip someone once said about a certain group of naysayers having predicted nine of last one famines.) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Mon Oct 3 19:52:01 2011 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 12:52:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is there a potential libertarianism / democracy tension? In-Reply-To: <1317652865.61488.YahooMailNeo@web160619.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1317045564.66819.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317122548.28251.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317136675.62409.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317312569.98708.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E851B2B.7020806@moulton.com> <1317652865.61488.YahooMailNeo@web160619.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E8A1261.3080709@moulton.com> Thanks to Dan for expanding on what I wrote. I agree with much of what he said. However it should be noted that John Hospers died in June 2011. Fred On 10/03/2011 07:41 AM, Dan wrote: > On Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:28 PM F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com wrote: >> I would like to emphasise the point that Dan makes. Much of the >> recent discussion has been on topics which directly or at least >> partially have been covered decades ago in works like Anarchy, >> State and Utopia by Nozick; and while I and a lot of others do not >> agree with it totally we recognise the value of the work. For people >> really interested in the topic becoming at least familiar with the basics >> is a good place to start. > I agree for the most part. I would add that familiarizing oneself with a philosophy does not necessarily means agreeing with or adhering to it. So, one can read Nozick -- and, I hope, read him critically -- and not need to agree with his every word. > > Where I might disagree is that Nozick's book is a good place to start. I felt the book was a jumble rather than a coherent treatise. My reason for bringing Nozick up, however, was that he was one of the more well known deep thinkers amongst libertarians and he recognized, back in the early 1970s, that libertarianism was not synonymous with democracy and that the two were not necessarily compatible. What's more, Nozick was, at that time, a minarchist. So, unlike Rothbard, who was an anarchist and would naturally have a "tension" with democracy, here was a libertarian who tried to ground government in libertarian principles and yet did see an antagonism or tension with democracy. (And other such well known libertarians who noted this antagonism abound: Rand (even if she wouldn't call herself a libertarian), Hospers, David Friedman, Walter Block, and many more recent thinkers*.) > > All of this said, Nozick did have an impact -- partly of rebutting Rawls. (Which is not to say Nozick himself wasn't rebutted and, unlike Rawls or even other libertarian luminaries like Rothbard, Nozick never formed a circle around or, to my knowledge, tried his hand at activism. I believe he just wrote the book and moved on to other things.) > > Regards, > > Dan > > * Of course, Friedman (David not Milton), Block, and Hospers are still alive, AFAIK. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 20:35:52 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Is there a potential libertarianism / democracy tension? In-Reply-To: <4E8A1261.3080709@moulton.com> References: <1317045564.66819.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317122548.28251.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317136675.62409.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317312569.98708.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E851B2B.7020806@moulton.com> <1317652865.61488.YahooMailNeo@web160619.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E8A1261.3080709@moulton.com> Message-ID: <1317674152.17772.YahooMailNeo@web160615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Monday, October 3, 2011 3:52 PM F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com?wrote: > Thanks to Dan for expanding on what I wrote.? I agree with much of what > he said. ? ? You're welcome. ? > However it should be noted that John Hospers died in June 2011. ? I'm sure I must have heard of his passing, but simply forgot. ? ? Regards, ? Dan From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 3 21:46:26 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 14:46:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 12:51 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The End of the Future On Monday, October 3, 2011 2:20 PM Adrian Tymes atymes at gmail.com wrote: > I had exactly the opposite reaction. It struck me as a lot of bawwing > and nothing on how to actually fix the problem. > > Analysis and introspection about the current situation, are only > useful insofar as they point their way to solutions. Analysis about > how terrible everything is, conducted only for its own sake (and/or > the emotional release from affirming that nothing oneself can do > matters), is a form of masturbation. Specifically, it is called > "disasterbation". Adrian I had a different take on it, with an upbeat ending. Consider when you were in high school or college (this thought experiment works better if that has been tragically long ago.) Now think of all the developments you anticipated by 2011, and compare to what happened. We had in mind all the Jetsons stuff, the video phones, flying cars, supersonic commercial flight, orbiting space stations, Mars colonies, advanced urban infrastructure, defeat of crime and all that. But if we had made a list of anticipated developments at that time, we would universally have missed one huge important development, which by itself more than compensates for everything that didn't happen: computers and internet. We wouldn't trade that development for all the flying cars and video phones in the world. The internet/fast computers have allowed each of us to develop and grow in way we just didn't imagine 30 yrs ago. When I read Thiel's commentary, something that struck me is his contention that the development of computers/internet in some ways masked the retrograde development in other areas. So people who never use computers/internet may actually perceive they are falling back, which they are in so many important ways. But if you collect all the people who are very pleased with how technology has advanced in our lifetimes, it will be those who use computers and internet all the time, and use it effectively. These people are us. So while we rejoice in the development of all these things, keep in mind that this kind of development might be a one-time event. The next thirty years might not be as much fun as was the last thirty, for computer geeks. Or something new and as completely unforeseen as the internet might come along and make the next 30 even more fun. Let's watch, shall we? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:00:05 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 00:00:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> Message-ID: On 3 October 2011 20:20, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I had exactly the opposite reaction. It struck me as a lot of bawwing and > nothing on how to actually fix the problem. > > Analysis and introspection about the current situation, are only useful > insofar as they point their way to solutions. Analysis about how terrible > everything is, conducted only for its own sake (and/or the emotional > release from affirming that nothing oneself can do matters), is a form of > masturbation. Specifically, it is called "disasterbation". Sure. But the first step is to realise that we do have a problem, and that this problem is emphatically NOT that of preventing computronium planetary entities to take over a little too abruptly for the personal taste of some of us in the next five years because our friend Ray Kurzweil have seen that in some exponential crystal ball. I think however that the "solution" implicit in Thiel's, and my, analyses is pretty obvious. Someone used to say that the right attitude is "pessimism of reason, optimism of will". Unless transhumanist values manage to replace through a deliberate action to this effect those dominant today, no posthuman change is going to happen. Heck, not even an half-decent stagnation. And a transhumanist society would be anywayt a much more pleasurable place where to live for those who share my worldview even if a few of its dreams actually failed to materialise, or, what is even more likely, would materialise in a way rather different from that expected. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 23:25:08 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317684308.6229.YahooMailNeo@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: > I had exactly the opposite reaction.? It struck me as a lot of bawwing and > nothing on how to actually fix the problem. > Analysis and introspection about the current situation, are only useful > insofar as they point their way to solutions.? Analysis about how terrible > everything is, conducted only for its own sake (and/or the emotional > release from affirming that nothing oneself can do matters), is a form of > masturbation.? Specifically, it is called "disasterbation". ? Another victory for Captain Hindsight. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:06:48 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 15:06:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/3 Stefano Vaj : > Sure. But the first step is to realise that we do have a problem Of course. But that is only the first step, and it is the only step Thiel took. It is not enough. > I think however that the "solution" implicit in Thiel's, and my, analyses is > pretty obvious. It is not. There are many possible solutions - and, moreover, many of those who wallow in despair will think there are none (and thus, won't see them unless explicitly pointed out). > Unless transhumanist values manage to replace through a > deliberate action to this effect those dominant today, no posthuman change > is going to happen. You have stated a possible solution there. That is more than Thiel's article did. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:30:54 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 00:30:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/3 spike > So while we rejoice in the development of all these things, keep in mind > that this kind of development might be a one-time event. The next thirty > years might not be as much fun as was the last thirty, for computer geeks. > Or for anybody. And I contend that while "progress" has become more and more "virtual", more and more a mere simulacrum, even in computing the decade 1981-1991 or even that 1991-2001 was *much* more fun than 2001-2011. What is Facebook other than a trivial implementation performed by dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants? Let us not confuse when the Internet was "invented" (the seventies of the XX c) and when it became ubiquitous. The real progress took place with the first thing, not the second. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Oct 4 00:48:55 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:48:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Triva: Turing and Ashby In-Reply-To: <1317684308.6229.YahooMailNeo@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317684308.6229.YahooMailNeo@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111003204855.z2ll4typs00wc8sw@webmail.natasha.cc> Does anyone know if there were any issues that resulted from Turnig writing to Ashby (1946 I think) asking him to work on the ACE project and Ashby not doing this, but developing?the Homeostat (1952 I think) instead? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 03:51:47 2011 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:51:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power vs. Money Message-ID: Many people equate power with money. While it is true that many of the most powerful people do have large sums of money, the converse is not true. Large sacks of money do not necessarily convert directly to power, at least without putting forth some effort. Bill Gates, for example, went years without donating to candidates of either party as a political no op and ended up being faced with a justice department investigation into his monopoly and no friends in power to save him from the big bad government. After that point, he donated heavily to candidates of both parties... coincidence? I think not. So how is this relevant to the future...? While I made the case a couple of weeks back that we will all be rich in the future, I am now going to assert that in one important way at least, we will not all be powerful. While we can simulate power over others in virtual worlds of our creation, we will not all exercise real power over our peers, except in the same kinds of small numbers that exercise such power today. So power will maintain its importance (to those who care about it) into the foreseeable future. I would assert that power will become even more concentrated as we move forward, and that the ranks of the powerful will become smaller and smaller. In the past, there were more locally powerful barons, dukes and so forth, and now power is collected in the cesspools we call national capitals, and even worse, places like the United Nations and Brussels for the EU. In the future, the nation state seems doomed to me, because you can't govern a global village of highly interconnected individuals with 120 separate sets of rules. I don't really like that part of the future, but it does seem somewhat inevitable. Push it off as far as we can, I don't think it will be pushed off indefinitely. The best we can hope for is some kind of united states where individual states maintain some independent rights, but there is also centralized world wide power to police those things that do not have location as a significant property. Stupid efforts at anarchy like Wiki Leaks push the day of the international brown shirt closer than it might otherwise be, but I digress. The point is, that it seems nearly inevitable to me that power will be concentrated in even fewer individuals than have power today. Perhaps through some miracle of technology individualism will be largely eliminated, and we will merge into a single unibrain of some architecture we cannot now understand. Perhaps we will develop into a true democracy where everyone has enough bandwidth to pay attention to all of the details... but totalitarianism seems to me to be the most likely outcome, at least at some points along the historical path... it probably will oscillate some. So, does anyone envision a future where we all have more power than we do now? If so, how do you see that working? -Kelly From anders at aleph.se Tue Oct 4 07:51:17 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 10:51:17 +0300 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> Message-ID: <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> I'm sitting at a conference about philosophy and AI right now. Yesterday's keynote talk was by Hubert Dreyfus and largely consisted of him gloating about how he had been right about the failures of all the AI pioneers that were passing by the MIT campus (Minsky, Simon, Lenat, Brooks, Dennett...), all suffering from the "first step fallacy" (if you have working first step of your architecture, then you can likely build the whole thing). The fun part was that he was genuinely surprised by the success of Watson - this is suddely a real result that from his perspective simply couldn't happen. In any case, he had a very relevant point: the real failure of the AI field has been that each new generation has not seriously learned from the successes and failures of the previous one. I think this shows a general malaise of many fields: are there incentives for progress or incentives for churn? You can get a great academic career by investigating what your professor works on, eventually inventing a "radical" different interpretation, and generally producing plenty of papers - despite these papers not really adding much, or dealing with a question that matters. Most AI researchers seem to be doing something like this. Companies need to sell things, but if they have the choice between making something genuinely new and something reliably profitable, then most will sensibly go for the later - and the customers are fine with that. And of course government policy is almost always churn than real attempts at reform. So, we might have a situation where we have created a situation where incentives largely promote churn over innovation/progress. This likely comes from 1) it is hard to distinguish genuine progress from good-looking churn, 2) innovation is failure-prone and funders/supporters don't want to be left holding the bag, 3) risk aversion has been spreading, 4) our society and institutions have become very complex, and getting the necessary focus to solve a big task is a tough social problem. To get around these, we need 1) better ways of detecting and distinguishing progress from churn, which often involves better institutional/societal memory, 2) changes in how incentives are distributed (see Ioannidis paper in last week's Nature, or discussions about science prizes), 3) making people more willing to take risks and follow visions, 4) better forms of organisation (perhaps enabled by new tech, perhaps by being tuned to maximizing progress). -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From giulio at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 09:19:54 2011 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 11:19:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> Message-ID: Funny to read these words from PT: "The state can successfully push science; there is no sense denying it. The Manhattan Project and the Apollo program remind us of this possibility. Free markets may not fund as much basic research as needed." Then he throws a jab: "Men reached the moon in July 1969, and Woodstock began three weeks later. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that this was when the hippies took over the country, and when the true cultural war over Progress was lost. Today?s aged hippies no longer understand that there is a difference between the election of a black president and the creation of cheap solar energy; in their minds, the movement towards greater civil rights parallels general progress everywhere." I wonder where he is coming from. I am an aged hippy (like many here), I support both the election of a black president (if (s)he is better than other candidates, which was the case with Obama), and the creation of cheap solar energy, and I understand that there is a difference. One does not imply the other, but I support both. Thiel is saying that "A supports B and C" = "A thinks that B = C", which is logically wrong. 2011/10/4 Stefano Vaj : > 2011/10/3 spike >> >> So while we rejoice in the development of all these things, keep in mind >> that this kind of development might be a one-time event.? The next thirty >> years might not be as much fun as was the last thirty, for computer geeks. > > Or for anybody. And I contend that while "progress" has become more and more > "virtual", more and more a mere simulacrum, even in computing the decade > 1981-1991 or even that 1991-2001 was *much* more fun than 2001-2011. What is > Facebook other than a trivial implementation performed by dwarves standing > on the shoulders of giants? > Let us not confuse when the Internet was "invented" (the seventies of the XX > c) and when it became ubiquitous. The real progress took place with the > first thing, not the second. > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From max at maxmore.com Tue Oct 4 10:12:04 2011 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 03:12:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is there a potential libertarianism / democracy tension? In-Reply-To: <1317674152.17772.YahooMailNeo@web160615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1317045564.66819.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317122548.28251.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317136675.62409.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317312569.98708.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E851B2B.7020806@moulton.com> <1317652865.61488.YahooMailNeo@web160619.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E8A1261.3080709@moulton.com> <1317674152.17772.YahooMailNeo@web160615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I had not heard that John Hospers died. That makes me very sad. John was a very likeable fellow who absolutely should have been cryopreserved. I know he had some interest in life extension, but don't know if he ever looked into cryonics. In the late 1980s, I had the honor of taking his course at USC in Political Philosophy. He was a superb teacher. I remember that first class where he read from (I think) Richard Taylor's Freedom, Anarchy, and the Law -- an excellent parable that caused many of the students present to deeply question what they believed about democracy and the legitimacy of government. Another memory from that time is of driving John to Long Beach to a meeting of some libertarian discussion group (I think it was the one where Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw spoke). Before getting back in my car to return north, a street person came up to us and asked for money. John pulled out cash and readily gave it to him. He glanced at me and quoted "There, but for the grace of God, go I". Damn, another person I greatly respond and liked gone forever. --Max On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Dan wrote: > On Monday, October 3, 2011 3:52 PM F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com > wrote: > > Thanks to Dan for expanding on what I wrote. I agree with much of what > > he said. > You're welcome. > > > However it should be noted that John Hospers died in June 2011. > > I'm sure I must have heard of his passing, but simply forgot. > > > Regards, > > Dan > -- Max More Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation 7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110 Scottsdale, AZ 85260 480/905-1906 ext 113 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 10:47:01 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 12:47:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/3 spike > So while we rejoice in the development of all these things, keep in mind > that this kind of development might be a one-time event. The next thirty > years might not be as much fun as was the last thirty, for computer geeks. > Or for anybody. And I contend that while "progress" has become and is becoming more and more "virtual" and simulacre, even in computing the decade 1981-1991 or even that 1991-2001 was *much* more fun than 2001-2011. What is Facebook other than a trivial implementation performed by dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants? Let us not confuse when the Internet was "invented" (the seventies of the XX century) and when it became ubiquitous (last decade). The real progress took place with the first thing, not the second. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at kurzweilai.net Tue Oct 4 10:32:55 2011 From: amara at kurzweilai.net (Amara D. Angelica) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 03:32:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> Message-ID: <05dd01cc8280$fb0734c0$f1159e40$@net> All sounds trite and obvious. Anything else? -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 2:20 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The End of the Future Funny to read these words from PT: "The state can successfully push science; there is no sense denying it. The Manhattan Project and the Apollo program remind us of this possibility. Free markets may not fund as much basic research as needed." Then he throws a jab: "Men reached the moon in July 1969, and Woodstock began three weeks later. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that this was when the hippies took over the country, and when the true cultural war over Progress was lost. Today?s aged hippies no longer understand that there is a difference between the election of a black president and the creation of cheap solar energy; in their minds, the movement towards greater civil rights parallels general progress everywhere." I wonder where he is coming from. I am an aged hippy (like many here), I support both the election of a black president (if (s)he is better than other candidates, which was the case with Obama), and the creation of cheap solar energy, and I understand that there is a difference. One does not imply the other, but I support both. Thiel is saying that "A supports B and C" = "A thinks that B = C", which is logically wrong. 2011/10/4 Stefano Vaj : > 2011/10/3 spike >> >> So while we rejoice in the development of all these things, keep in mind >> that this kind of development might be a one-time event.? The next thirty >> years might not be as much fun as was the last thirty, for computer geeks. > > Or for anybody. And I contend that while "progress" has become more and more > "virtual", more and more a mere simulacrum, even in computing the decade > 1981-1991 or even that 1991-2001 was *much* more fun than 2001-2011. What is > Facebook other than a trivial implementation performed by dwarves standing > on the shoulders of giants? > Let us not confuse when the Internet was "invented" (the seventies of the XX > c) and when it became ubiquitous. The real progress took place with the > first thing, not the second. > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From amara at kurzweilai.net Tue Oct 4 11:01:05 2011 From: amara at kurzweilai.net (Amara D. Angelica) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 04:01:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <05dd01cc8280$fb0734c0$f1159e40$@net> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> <05dd01cc8280$fb0734c0$f1159e40$@net> Message-ID: <061301cc8284$ea3c8330$beb58990$@net> Sorry, I posted this here by accident, not directly related to this thread. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara D. Angelica Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:33 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: Re: [ExI] The End of the Future All sounds trite and obvious. Anything else? -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 2:20 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The End of the Future Funny to read these words from PT: "The state can successfully push science; there is no sense denying it. The Manhattan Project and the Apollo program remind us of this possibility. Free markets may not fund as much basic research as needed." Then he throws a jab: "Men reached the moon in July 1969, and Woodstock began three weeks later. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that this was when the hippies took over the country, and when the true cultural war over Progress was lost. Today?s aged hippies no longer understand that there is a difference between the election of a black president and the creation of cheap solar energy; in their minds, the movement towards greater civil rights parallels general progress everywhere." I wonder where he is coming from. I am an aged hippy (like many here), I support both the election of a black president (if (s)he is better than other candidates, which was the case with Obama), and the creation of cheap solar energy, and I understand that there is a difference. One does not imply the other, but I support both. Thiel is saying that "A supports B and C" = "A thinks that B = C", which is logically wrong. 2011/10/4 Stefano Vaj : > 2011/10/3 spike >> >> So while we rejoice in the development of all these things, keep in mind >> that this kind of development might be a one-time event.? The next thirty >> years might not be as much fun as was the last thirty, for computer geeks. > > Or for anybody. And I contend that while "progress" has become more and more > "virtual", more and more a mere simulacrum, even in computing the decade > 1981-1991 or even that 1991-2001 was *much* more fun than 2001-2011. What is > Facebook other than a trivial implementation performed by dwarves standing > on the shoulders of giants? > Let us not confuse when the Internet was "invented" (the seventies of the XX > c) and when it became ubiquitous. The real progress took place with the > first thing, not the second. > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 11:02:20 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:02:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 4 October 2011 09:51, Anders Sandberg wrote: > So, we might have a situation where we have created a situation where > incentives largely promote churn over innovation/progress. This likely comes > from 1) it is hard to distinguish genuine progress from good-looking churn, > 2) innovation is failure-prone and funders/supporters don't want to be left > holding the bag, 3) risk aversion has been spreading, 4) our society and > institutions have become very complex, and getting the necessary focus to > solve a big task is a tough social problem. > This is a very good diagnosis. I would only add that we should know by now that those are the typical markers of ages of *decadence*. How can there be so much hype floating around about the wonderful turn things have taken? Now, I suspect that an important, and distracting, contribution to this trend may originate from anti-transhumanists' "pessimism", which require them in order to stay in business to cry wolf, and lend credibility to our own "optimism", with respect of the threat of a impending posthuman change. The issue here is not about falling into defeatism and skepticism. It is rather about being realistic upon the fact that a number of things in order to happen would have to be fought for, and that the very cultural, civilisational, paradigmatic fabrics of our societies would have to be torn and overturned. Needless to say, this involves that implicit and explicit transhumanism should go from "mystical" to "revolutionary". > To get around these, we need 1) better ways of detecting and distinguishing > progress from churn, which often involves better institutional/societal > memory, 2) changes in how incentives are distributed (see Ioannidis paper in > last week's Nature, or discussions about science prizes), 3) making people > more willing to take risks and follow visions, 4) better forms of > organisation (perhaps enabled by new tech, perhaps by being tuned to > maximizing progress). > Indeed. Unless one accepts the consequences of those demands, however, the risk is that the recipe remains limited to principles such as "buy low and sell high if you want to make money in the stock exchange". -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 11:54:34 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:54:34 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <20111003150655.GF25711@leitl.org> References: <20111003150655.GF25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 3 October 2011 17:06, Eugen Leitl wrote: > I haven't yet heard that particular objection. This week, I mean. > Yes. My personal answer to Fermi's paradox is much more along the lines of Wolfram's. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 13:18:04 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:18:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Power vs. Money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 October 2011 05:51, Kelly Anderson wrote: > Many people equate power with money. While it is true that many of the > most powerful people do have large sums of money, the converse is not > true. I would not even be ready to concede so quickly the first part, which is at best applicable to contemporary western societies, but certainly does not correspond to any "natural" law. In fact, Nietzsche theorised that a future could be possible where the ruling class would be "poorer" than its subjects. Historical examples to this effect also exist. In the future, the nation state seems doomed to me, because you can't > govern a global village of highly interconnected individuals with 120 > separate sets of rules. I don't really like that part of the future, > but it does seem somewhat inevitable. Push it off as far as we can, I > don't think it will be pushed off indefinitely. The best we can hope > for is some kind of united states where individual states maintain > some independent rights, but there is also centralized world wide > power to police those things that do not have location as a > significant property. > Such a scenario is already described well enough in Huxley's Brave New World. As far as dystopias go, however, even Orwell's 1984 shows how a more plural, albeit rather unpleasant, world could be maintained indefinitely. So, traditional nation-states as we have known them only for two-three centuries or less may well be going out of fashion, but political pluralism and conflicts existed before and might continue existing after their demise. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 14:01:40 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 07:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: References: <20111003150655.GF25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1317736900.18368.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Stefano Vaj wrote: ? > Yes. My personal answer to Fermi's paradox is much > more along the lines of Wolfram's. ? http://www.marcuschown.com/kelvinsample.htm ? "If you do not like Wolfram's rather unorthodox explanation of the Fermi paradox, then you are left essentially with two plausible options: either there is some murderous race out there in the Galaxy - in which case perhaps we should be cautious about overtly announcing our presence - or we are the first intelligence to have arisen and therefore and utterly alone in the Milky Way. Then again, there could still be some explanation nobody has yet thought of." ? Wolfram essentially said we won't recognize advanced alien technology when we see it and the aliens are sitting at home on their computers because anything of interest can be found there. ? I have said before elsewhere that alien radio signals would appear to be noise.? The military was publicly discussing?the advantages of impulse?wide band?encrypted radio back in the late 1980s.? As Wolfram said - once you make it efficient it looks like white noise. ? Some other efficient alien technology may also?take on forms we don't recognize. ? Dan Ust has often pointed out that not all alien civilizations are going to take the same path so why don't we see the upstarts, those who don't follow custom, or civilizations with a different outlook? ? I view the SETI effort as too small so far to catch unusual aliens or stray signals not following a general pattern.? I support the idea that rather than a "murderous race" we are looking at a generalized military strategy for all times and all places - how to render WoMD largely ineffective even considering?the energy scales in space. ? Superstealth - SND as discussed in a previous post. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 14:16:39 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Power vs. Money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1317737799.4536.YahooMailClassic@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Kelly Anderson wrote: > While I made the case a > couple of weeks back that we will all be rich in the future, I am now > going to assert that in one important way at least, we will not all be > powerful. While we can simulate power over others in virtual worlds of > our creation, we will not all exercise real power over our peers, > except in the same kinds of small numbers that exercise such power > today. So power will maintain its importance (to those who care about > it) into the foreseeable future. > > I would assert that power will become even more concentrated as we > move forward, and that the ranks of the powerful will become smaller > and smaller. In the past, there were more locally powerful barons, > dukes and so forth, and now power is collected in the cesspools we > call national capitals, and even worse, places like the United Nations > and Brussels for the EU. > > In the future, the nation state seems doomed to me, because you can't > govern a global village of highly interconnected individuals with 120 > separate sets of rules. I don't really like that part of the future, You don't like the idea of a global village of highly interconnected individuals with 120 separate sets of rules? (1200, 12,000, or better still, one set per person). Not sure I understand why. Would you like the idea of a single set of rules that apply to everyone? Effectively, a World Gubmint? > The best we can hope > for is some kind of united states where individual states maintain > some independent rights, but there is also centralized world wide > power to police those things that do not have location as a > significant property. Stupid efforts at anarchy like Wiki Leaks push > the day of the international brown shirt closer than it might > otherwise be, but I digress. I thought WikiLeaks was an effort at public accountability, not anarchy (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with Anarchy, as long as you know what it actually means). > The point is, that it seems nearly inevitable to me that power will be > concentrated in even fewer individuals than have power today. Perhaps > through some miracle of technology individualism will be largely > eliminated, and we will merge into a single unibrain of some > architecture we cannot now understand. Perhaps we will develop into a > true democracy where everyone has enough bandwidth to pay attention to > all of the details... but totalitarianism seems to me to be the most > likely outcome, at least at some points along the historical path... > it probably will oscillate some. > > So, does anyone envision a future where we all have more power than we > do now? If so, how do you see that working? I envision a future where everyone has much *less* power over other people (ideally none at all), and much more power over themselves. The only real excuses for a central authority with power over others are 1) to combat universal existential threats, and 2) to prevent coercion of one individual or group by another. The powers of such an authority should be strictly limited to those necessary to combat such threats. Nobody should have the power to tell me, you, or anyone else, what they should be wearing, thinking, having sex with, doing on a sunday, eating, doing with their own resources, telling other people, agreeing with other people, listening to, watching, smoking, etc., etc., unless it materially harms other people, or results in their coercion. My hope is that the ranks of the powerful will indeed become smaller and smaller.. until they reach Zero. Everyone will have absolute power - over themselves - and nobody will have any power at all over others. Ben Zaiboc From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 14:54:18 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 07:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Power vs. Money In-Reply-To: <1317737799.4536.YahooMailClassic@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1317737799.4536.YahooMailClassic@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317740058.64977.YahooMailNeo@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:16 AM?Ben Zaiboc bbenzai at yahoo.com > I envision a future where everyone has much *less* power over other >?people (ideally none at all), and much more power over themselves. This is indeed my hope too. And that's basically what libertarianism should end in: each individual having autonomy/sovereignty over her or himself and over no one else. And, of course, taking the long view of history, things do seem to be going in that direction in many areas -- even if there are opposing trends in others. Think of, in Western nations, the liberties now enjoyed by women, gays, and ethnic minorities that were only debated about a century or two ago. At the same time, of course, there are things like recreational drug prohibition that evince an opposing trend. Hopefully, that will soon end. Regards, Dan From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 15:04:14 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 08:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> Message-ID: <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Anders Sandberg wrote: ? "...keynote talk was by Hubert Dreyfus and largely consisted of him gloating about how he had been right about the failures of all the AI pioneers" ? Everyone took short-cut routes instead of developing and implementing large scale neural networks - no mystery there.? Unfortunately I still don't see any serious long term effort in that direction - just larger and larger short-cuts with no plans for follow-on except more and more short term projects. ? Anders Sandberg wrote: ? "I think this shows a general malaise of many fields: are there incentives for progress or incentives for churn?" Anders?lists a number of observations of symptoms of a problem.? The root of the problem is not hard to understand - it is central planning versus free markets. Central planners?represent a serial computer with a number of bottlenecks in speed and a limited number of inputs [limited knowledge].? Free markets are a massive parallel computational project with nearly unlimited inputs and outputs.? You can build remarkable serial and/or partially parallel computers [Watson] and conclude their successes imply a path forward [seen versus unseen].? Or you can learn from history and what works in nature and unleash the much greater potential of what amounts to a massive parallel operation in essentially neural network form [much greater knowledge] - free markets. I would think that people in a forum like this would understand information bottlenecks and serial versus parallel processing and be able to apply it?in economic and political situations. Big government and central planners may be able to pull off a moon shot and build atomic bombs but the science [Goddard] and [Szil?rd] was the work of a tiny number of individuals.? In the days of?6%-8% real growth unleashed by free markets there would have been real money available in free markets to invest in new technologies versus government siphoning it all off to buy votes [seen versus unseen]. Money in private hands can and did build huge projects in the past - something central planners would have us believe cannot be done today. Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 16:05:03 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:05:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Economist and the Singularity University Message-ID: Received and forwarded: < *. As part of this year's theme, "The essence of truly great innovation," *The Economist* is showcasing notable past *Economist* award recipients within seven categories: Bioscience, Business Process, Computing & Telecommunications, Consumer Products & Services, Energy & The Environment, No Boundaries, and Social & Economic. Based on public vote, one individual from each category will be awarded the "Greatest Innovator of the Past Decade" honor. Ray was *The Economist*'s "Computing and Telecommunications" award recipient in 2009. Peter was a 2010 recipient of *The Economist *award in the "No Boundaries" category. Voting is open now through October 14, 2011. Voters are allowed to vote once per email account. If you have more than one email address, please feel free to vote via each individual account. *Note that you can vote for one person in each category. * http://www.economistconferences.co.uk/anniversaryaward/castyourvote >> -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 4 16:07:37 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 09:07:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <1317736900.18368.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20111003150655.GF25711@leitl.org> <1317736900.18368.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019201cc82af$bcd38c10$367aa430$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dennis May Subject: Re: [ExI] Slow thinking Stefano Vaj wrote: > Yes. My personal answer to Fermi's paradox is much > more along the lines of Wolfram's. >http://www.marcuschown.com/kelvinsample.htm >Dennis May >.For, if any ET civilisation contacted us, says Wolfram, what could it trade with us? In his view, all it could say is "Here are some useful programs we have found in the computational universe - what have you found?" We have found 47 Mersenne primes and 47 perfect numbers. Those will be universal indicators of how a civilization chooses to waste its computing resources. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 16:38:45 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:38:45 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/4 Dennis May > Anders?lists a number of observations of symptoms of > a problem.? The root of the problem is not hard to > understand - it is central planning versus free markets. > Central planners?represent a serial computer with a number > of bottlenecks in speed and a limited number of inputs > [limited knowledge].? Free markets are a massive parallel > computational project with nearly unlimited inputs and > outputs.? You can build remarkable serial and/or partially > parallel computers [Watson] and conclude their successes > imply a path forward [seen versus unseen].? Or you can > learn from history and what works in nature and unleash > the much greater potential of what amounts to a massive > parallel operation in essentially neural network form > [much greater knowledge] - free markets. This sounds a little ideologically biaised. Just to play Devil's advocate, it is perfectly true that planned economies used to mimic - or at best be based on! - serial computers of a limited power. It might however be possible today to have real, literal parallel computing actually surpassing the performance of the markets as far as economic optimisation is concerned. One would be hard-pressed to indicate state economies on the way to rearrange themselves along those lines, but large private conglomerates whose internal working are not based on "market-like" transactions already exceeds the size and complexity of small nation-states... -- Stefano Vaj From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 17:19:51 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Stefano Vaj wrote: ? > Just to play Devil's advocate, it is perfectly true > that planned economies used to mimic - or at best > be based on! - serial computers of a limited power. > It might however be possible today to have real, > literal parallel computing actually surpassing the > performance of the markets as far as economic > optimisation is concerned. ? Unless the central planner relinquishes control over economic decisions a better and better model of how to?optimize things is still central planning using the model of a serial computer to control?what could be a more efficient?parallel process.? Central planners attempt a degree of parallel efficiency when they delegate authority.? This produces a serial operation at the top controlling a combination of serial and parallel processes below it.? The delegates below the top serial central planners then become their own central planners also without adequate information and producing bottlenecks. ? The dreams of serial central planners assume a number of things never realized in action and never reaching the capabilities of parallel operation [free markets]. ? When central planners control information [education] the feedback loop enforcing the seen and unseen favors what is seen to have the positive products of central planning while the unseen [erased from history] or never allowed to happen [lack of free markets] can be dismissed. ? The history of central planning is always "oh we can do it better than the last guy who failed" while never questioning the fundamental validity of the approach - which is a flawed understanding of information in markets, efficiency, production, and technological growth. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 17:50:12 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:50:12 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/4 Dennis May : > Unless the central planner relinquishes control over > economic decisions a better and better model of > how to?optimize things is still central planning using > the model of a serial computer to control?what could > be a more efficient?parallel process. Actually, no. As long as we accept the Principle of Computational Equivalence, given sufficient computational resources the "market" itself can be emulated at an arbitrary low level as anything else: the inner working of a star, a biological brain, the entire universe... And real markets have by no means features such as unlimited bandwith, zero latency, etc. Conversely, free-market idolatry hardly takes into account that market players' inner workings is usually based on planning and literal-computing support, such as ERP apps, not on the assistance of any Invisible Hand. And, yes, IBM in the Akers's era abundantly shows that the alleged advantages of basing a major corporation internal transactions on pseudo-market mechanisms are far from obvious in real life. -- Stefano Vaj From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 18:02:08 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 11:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Slow thinking In-Reply-To: <019201cc82af$bcd38c10$367aa430$@att.net> References: <20111003150655.GF25711@leitl.org> <1317736900.18368.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <019201cc82af$bcd38c10$367aa430$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317751328.18696.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: spike To: 'Dennis May' ; 'ExI chat list' Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] Slow thinking ? ? From:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dennis May Subject: Re: [ExI] Slow thinking ? Stefano Vaj wrote: ? > Yes. My personal answer to Fermi's paradox is much > more along the lines of Wolfram's. ? >http://www.marcuschown.com/kelvinsample.htm ? >Dennis May ? ? >?For, if any ET civilisation contacted us, says Wolfram, what could it trade with us? In his view, all it could say is "Here are some useful programs we have found in the computational universe - what have you found?" ? ? We have found 47 Mersenne primes and 47 perfect numbers.? Those will be universal indicators of how a civilization chooses to waste its computing resources.? ? spike ? What about a Facebook for the universe? ? Regards, ? Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 18:07:47 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 11:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317751667.45762.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I wrote: ? > Unless the central planner relinquishes control over > economic decisions a better and better model of > how to optimize things is still central planning using > the model of a serial computer to control what could > be a more efficient parallel process. Stefano Vaj wrote: > Actually, no. As long as we accept the Principle > of Computational Equivalence, given sufficient > computational resources the "market" itself can > be emulated at an arbitrary low level as anything > else: the inner working of a star, a biological > brain, the entire universe... So those involved in the market are expected not to react to the fact that central?planners?are making their economic decisions for them???Those who create technology and innovate?will have their inventions?"emulated" for them by a central planner who knows what is best before it is even created?? Everything is now a commodity so nothing new need be created in this central planning paradise?? It would seem you are contemplating a massive parallel computational resource incorporating all human minds making the final decisions for every step in the market process - not a small number of serial central?planners at the top. The Mbrain replacing humans is the solution of how to make central planning finally work? There becomes only one planner, one market, one being interacting with itself with perfect information? Low level modeling alone will miss virtually all innovation and the results of innovation. Dennis May ?. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 20:32:40 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I wrote: > So those involved in the market are expected not > to react to the fact that central?planners?are making > their economic decisions for them? ? Stefano Vaj wrote: > Entirely different issue. > We were just discussing whether carbon is by > definition faster than silicon. > It may, but it need not, be. My point however is > that you seem to have religious reasons to think > otherwise. ? The subject originated as observations?indicating a decline in human intellectual productivity. ? I noted that this decline can be directly tied to the?information bottlenecks and resulting inefficiencies of central planning.? A small serial processing system?inhibiting what is inherently a large parallel neural process. ? This information based view of the central fallacy of central planning has been around for a very long time.? Information theory seems very important in relation to the subject matter of this discussion site.? I think it is appropriate that the central fallacy be examined in this light.? ? "Religious reasons"?does not address the question of information?available to?central planners versus everyone else and how everyone else reacts to?central planners - living in information and processing poverty - making decisions for them. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 21:20:02 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 23:20:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/4 Dennis May : > This information based view of the central > fallacy of central planning has been around > for a very long time. Yes, but this is contingent on an actual planning inefficiency. Which of course was simply a given, when something as large and complicated like the USSR used to be managed with punch-card systems at best (or, more likely, pencils, snail mail/teletype reporting, mechanical desktop calculators and file cabinets). We can still argue on the undesirability of a planned economy for other reasons, but I think we should realise that the computational superiority of markets is not a law of nature, and that some large corporations and conglomerates already manage manage by now to be "planned economies" of a scale exceeding that of many state-nations, yet being "competitive" with their rivals. Basically, I accept your metaphor of markets as computing devices. Simply, you should consider the idea that they may be faster than some alternative scenarios, and slower than others. -- Stefano Vaj From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 21:58:17 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317765497.48352.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, October 4, 2011 5:20 PM Stefano Vaj stefano.vaj at gmail.com wrote: > 2011/10/4 Dennis May : >> This information based view of the central >> fallacy of central planning has been around >> for a very long time. > > Yes, but this is contingent on an actual planning inefficiency. >? > Which of course was simply a given, when something as large and > complicated like the USSR used to be managed with punch-card systems > at best (or, more likely, pencils, snail mail/teletype reporting, > mechanical desktop calculators and file cabinets). To my knowledge, the Hayek information problem cannot be solved simply by throwing more computing power at it. Those in that debate had already anticipated having better computational power. ? Therer's also the problem of coming up with real world capital goods prices, which are always disequilibrium ones and never perferct, without actual real world capital goods markets, as Mises discussed in his _Socialism_ and in _Human Action_. (Mises preceded Hayek here, and I believe their critiques are complementary.) ? > We can still argue on the undesirability of a planned economy for > other reasons, but I think we should realise that the computational > superiority of markets is not a law of nature, and that some large > corporations and conglomerates already manage manage? by now to be > planned economies of a scale exceeding that of many state-nations, > yet being "competitive" with their rivals. Mises already dealt with the central planners playing market approach. There are incentive, informational, and entrepreneurial (dealing with inventing an unknown future and unknown unknowns) problems with this. This is why even smaller scale operations done this way tend to fail or produce markedly inferior results. ? > Basically, I accept your metaphor of markets as computing devices. > Simply, you should consider the idea that they may be faster than some > alternative scenarios, and slower than others. The problem here is presenting a real world solution -- actual markets - against idealized alternatives. This seems to me an example of assuming away the problem. Markets and other spontaneous orders actually solve the problem while it's in process. Planned economies and other top down approaches tend to work once the problem has already been solved. ? Regards, ? Dan From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 22:12:42 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, October 4, 2011 4:32 PM Dennis May wrote: > "Religious reasons" does not address the > question of information available to central > planners versus everyone else and how > everyone else reacts to central planners - > living in information and processing > poverty - making decisions for them. While I disagree with characterizing your approach with a "religious" one -- and would warn others here to avoid such language as it's merelt the equivalent in this forum of calling some one a jerk and doesn't clear up anything -- one problem is perhaps that Stefano is not familiar with the Mises-Hayek critique of central planning and of the various debates that have taken place on this over the last 90 years or so. (The debaters were not, to inform everyone else here, blissfully unaware of the computational approach. In fact, some in the pro-central planning side in the debate has offered this, time and again, as the solution: computational power will simply increase and the problem with go away.) Dennis, you mgiht be more familiar with Mises, Hayek, etc. and are not explaining all the intermediate steps. Remember, what appears obvious to one person might not only appear not obvious but even absolutely wrong. ? Regards, ? Dan From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 22:40:28 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317768028.74130.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dan Ust wrote: ? >? Dennis, you mgiht be more familiar with Mises, > Hayek, etc. and are not explaining all the intermediate > steps. Remember, what appears obvious to one person > might not only appear not obvious but even absolutely >? wrong. ? Dan knows me well enough to know that I often skip 2-3-4 or more intermediate steps in arguments and assume too much background a great deal of the time. Sorry about that if I have generated an issue. ? Dennis May ________________________________ From: Dan To: ExI chat list Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] The End of the Future On Tuesday, October 4, 2011 4:32 PM Dennis May wrote: > "Religious reasons" does not address the > question of information available to central > planners versus everyone else and how > everyone else reacts to central planners - > living in information and processing > poverty - making decisions for them. While I disagree with characterizing your approach with a "religious" one -- and would warn others here to avoid such language as it's merelt the equivalent in this forum of calling some one a jerk and doesn't clear up anything -- one problem is perhaps that Stefano is not familiar with the Mises-Hayek critique of central planning and of the various debates that have taken place on this over the last 90 years or so. (The debaters were not, to inform everyone else here, blissfully unaware of the computational approach. In fact, some in the pro-central planning side in the debate has offered this, time and again, as the solution: computational power will simply increase and the problem with go away.) Dennis, you mgiht be more familiar with Mises, Hayek, etc. and are not explaining all the intermediate steps. Remember, what appears obvious to one person might not only appear not obvious but even absolutely wrong. ? Regards, ? Dan _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anissimov at singinst.org Wed Oct 5 03:57:00 2011 From: anissimov at singinst.org (Michael Anissimov) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:57:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Singularity Summit 2011 Message-ID: Hi Extropians, Singularity Summit is coming up in New York in 11 days. I hope to see some of you there! Christof Koch, Peter Thiel, Stephen Wolfram, and many other luminaries will be speaking, including the creator of IBM's Watson computer. www.singularitysummit.com The focus this year is around the victory of Watson in* Jeopardy!*: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/9/prweb8811036.htm -- Michael Anissimov Singularity Institute www.singinst.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 07:39:08 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 08:39:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Dan wrote: > While I disagree with characterizing your approach with a "religious" one -- and would warn others here > to avoid such language as it's merelt the equivalent in this forum of calling some one a jerk and doesn't > clear up anything -- one problem is perhaps that Stefano is not familiar with the Mises-Hayek critique of > central planning and of the various debates that have taken place on this over the last 90 years or so. > (The debaters were not, to inform everyone else here, blissfully unaware of the computational approach. > In fact, some in the pro-central planning side in the debate has offered this, time and again, as the solution: > computational power will simply increase and the problem with go away.) Dennis, you mgiht be more > familiar with Mises, Hayek, etc. and are not explaining all the intermediate steps. Remember, what appears > obvious to one person might not only appear not obvious but even absolutely wrong. > > Well, if the debate has been going on since the 1920s, perhaps Mises-Hayek got it wrong? Or perhaps their proposals were incomplete, or too one-sided? The inefficiencies of many companies making similar widgets and most of them going bankrupt are just as obvious as the inefficiencies of government. (I avoid the term 'free market' as that is a fiction used only by ivory-tower economists). The best option seems to be a mix of government for big enterprises and small businesses for making widgets. That shares the inefficiency and wastage all around. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 08:35:55 2011 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:35:55 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The traditional political discourse is frozen in obsolete political categories such as "Right" and "Left". The Right says that corporation are good and governments are bad. The Left says that governments are good and corporations are bad. Only a few independent thinkers see the obvious, that big governments and big corporations, and big banks, act together in perfect unison to keep all the power and all the money for themselves. I am against the current power monopoly of big governments, big corporations and big banks, and wish to see power back in the hand of the citizens where it belongs. Unfortunately these governments, corporations and banks, acting together, have transformed the global financial system into a huge Ponzi scam. On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:20 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > 2011/10/4 Dennis May : >> This information based view of the central >> fallacy of central planning has been around >> for a very long time. > > Yes, but this is contingent on an actual planning inefficiency. > > Which of course was simply a given, when something as large and > complicated like the USSR used to be managed with punch-card systems > at best (or, more likely, pencils, snail mail/teletype reporting, > mechanical desktop calculators and file cabinets). > > We can still argue on the undesirability of a planned economy for > other reasons, but I think we should realise that the computational > superiority of markets is not a law of nature, and that some large > corporations and conglomerates already manage manage ?by now to be > "planned economies" of a scale exceeding that of many state-nations, > yet being "competitive" with their rivals. > > Basically, I accept your metaphor of markets as computing devices. > Simply, you should consider the idea that they may be faster than some > alternative scenarios, and slower than others. > > -- > Stefano Vaj > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From amon at doctrinezero.com Wed Oct 5 08:53:47 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:53:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 09:35, Giulio Prisco wrote: > The traditional political discourse is frozen in obsolete political > categories such as "Right" and "Left". The Right says that corporation > are good and governments are bad. The Left says that governments are > good and corporations are bad. > > Only a few independent thinkers see the obvious, that big governments > and big corporations, and big banks, act together in perfect unison to > keep all the power and all the money for themselves. > > I am against the current power monopoly of big governments, big > corporations and big banks, and wish to see power back in the hand of > the citizens where it belongs. Unfortunately these governments, > corporations and banks, acting together, have transformed the global > financial system into a huge Ponzi scam. I couldn't agree more. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 09:10:18 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:10:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317765497.48352.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317765497.48352.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4 October 2011 23:58, Dan wrote: > The problem here is presenting a real world solution -- actual markets - against idealized alternatives. This may well be argued, and is ultimately an empirical issue (see again the "planned" economies of remarkable complexity who are today dealt through computer simulations). Exactly the same goes with AI, and the quality of power of the features which can be emulated today vs the performances of biological brains. An entirely different issue is to believe that markets or brains or ecosystems cannot be competitively emulated by definition, out of some ineffable quality thereof that would allow them to perform calculations that no other cybernetic system could approach. This is what sounds to me as a religious position. -- Stefano Vaj From amon at doctrinezero.com Wed Oct 5 11:38:28 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:38:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 09:53, Amon Zero wrote: > On 5 October 2011 09:35, Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> The traditional political discourse is frozen in obsolete political >> categories such as "Right" and "Left". The Right says that corporation >> are good and governments are bad. The Left says that governments are >> good and corporations are bad. >> >> Only a few independent thinkers see the obvious, that big governments >> and big corporations, and big banks, act together in perfect unison to >> keep all the power and all the money for themselves. >> >> I am against the current power monopoly of big governments, big >> corporations and big banks, and wish to see power back in the hand of >> the citizens where it belongs. Unfortunately these governments, >> corporations and banks, acting together, have transformed the global >> financial system into a huge Ponzi scam. > > > > I couldn't agree more. > > - A > And on that note, at the top of the page linked below you will find a leaflet which will be distributed at the Occupy Dallas protests tomorrow, which addresses exactly these things (necessarily briefly, being a leaflet!). It doesn't explicitly mention transhumanism, but the website itself is of course chock-full of futurist, pro-tech, & transhumanist sentiment. If anyone agrees with the views expressed there, we would very much appreciate you spreading the word. http://zerostate.net - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 12:08:15 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:08:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/5 Amon Zero : >> I am against the current power monopoly of big governments, big >> corporations and big banks, and wish to see power back in the hand of >> the citizens where it belongs. Unfortunately these governments, >> corporations and banks, acting together, have transformed the global >> financial system into a huge Ponzi scam. > > I couldn't agree more. Neither could I... -- Stefano Vaj From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Oct 5 14:29:40 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Economic Calculation Debate/was Re: The End of the Future References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:39 AM BillK pharos at gmail.com wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Dan wrote: >> While I disagree with characterizing your approach with a >> "religious" one -- and would warn others here to avoid such >> language as it's merelt the equivalent in this forum of >> calling some one a jerk and doesn't clear up anything -- one >> problem is perhaps that Stefano is not familiar with the Mises >> -Hayek critique of central planning and of the various debates >> that have taken place on this over the last 90 years or so. >> (The debaters were not, to inform everyone else here, blissfully >> unaware of the computational approach. In fact, some in the pro- >> central planning side in the debate has offered this, time and >> again, as the solution: computational power will simply increase >> and the problem with go away.) Dennis, you mgiht be more familiar >> with Mises, Hayek, etc. and are not explaining all the intermediate >> steps. Remember, what appears obvious to one person might not only >> appear not obvious but even absolutely wrong. > > Well, if the debate has been going on since the 1920s, perhaps > Mises-Hayek got it wrong? Or perhaps their proposals were incomplete, > or too one-sided? You'll have to dig into the debate. They weren't debating this problem with people who were already on their side. Mises was debating this with actual socialists and other interested economists, such as Oskar Lange and Otto Neurath. Hayek was debating with later economists and the like. You're making it sound like Mises and Hayek had a brief discussion over?drinks at the country club,?concluded?central planning was a bad idea and?ever since?their loyal followers and gushing admirers have agreed with them. ? Also, actual real world planners, despite all their failures, past and present, are not all fools who never decided to use computers and try new methods. They've done and the record is dismal. Their theoretical supporters, from Lange to Stiglitz (though he's nomally for free markets) have likewise suggested all sorts of technical solutions to this problem -- to no avail. (In my view, they simply miss the problem. In a sense, bad economics is like perpetual motion -- the folks proposing it keep thinking it's merely an engineering problem to be overcome instead of seeing the essential flaw in their thinking.) > The inefficiencies of many companies making similar widgets and most > of them going bankrupt are just as obvious as the inefficiencies of > government. (I avoid the term 'free market' as that is a fiction used > only by ivory-tower economists). Um, this misunderstands the problem. Mises, Hayek, etc. are not claiming that firms on a free market are?perfect, have perfect information, never fail, or meet some ideal standard of?efficiency. They are stating central planning simply can't work. It's not that it's less efficient, but that it simply can't calculate at all -- because the prices for capital goods generated under central planning have nothing to do with and are not anything like real world prices. ? All of this does not mean markets are ideal, but rather that they do work. One might draw an analogy -- admittedly, a loose one -- with how science works as a social endeavor: people present theories, test them against data, critique them, and the theories, in general, improve. This process is not perfect. Ex post, one can realize that much effort was expeded in the wrong way -- building or fixing worse theories, ignoring better one, ignoring data, looking for or at the wrong data, and so forth. But I don't think central planning in science would do any better. E.g., a central scientific board might be set up to plan all scientific research, data collection, experiment,?and criticism. This approach would soon, in my opinion, be out of touch with reality as the plan came into contact with reality. Since the central board would be making all decisions here, too, they would have to decide when they were wrong. ? Rothbard and others, too, have pointed out that large firms do in fact face the same calculation problem. (Partly, this might explain why large corporations, though not exclusively them, seek and lobby for (and often get) government favor to stifle competitors, obtain subsidies,?and restrict consumer choices. This helps them to overcome their calculation problem by spreading the costs of it to other parties -- in general, to other firms, consumers, the tax base, or everyone else.) ? > The best option seems to be a mix of government for big enterprises > and small businesses for making widgets. That shares the inefficiency > and wastage all around. ? Mises and others already addressed this. The third way of fascist economics?doesn't work as well as free markets and tends to politcize production and consumption. What's more, as we see in today's world -- which is basically fascist in the economic sense -- is the government setting all sorts of economic targets, controlling the banking system, bailing out politically connected firms (surprised? a large firm will have more voters and more people likely to turn against the government, so it will, in general, get more favors than its smaller, less politically astute competitors). government attempting to pick winners (as if it had foresight here better than anyone else*), and so forth. ? Why not advocate the same in science? Why not a mix of censorship and open discussion? Why not a mix of, say, the Church, whatever church or maybe a group of them, have some say over restricting areas of inquiry? ? Regards. ? Dan ? * Note: my claim is not that non-government folks are angels, saints, or geniuses at economic forecasting. They are not perfect or of a different species than those in government. But those in government are no better still and face two additions problems: they have little incentive for success or against failure as, for the most part, they can shift costs to others as a matter of routine, and they face information problems that markets solve ex ante -- even if such solutions are not perfect. From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 16:27:17 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:27:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/5 Amon Zero : > And on that note, at the top of the page linked below you will find a > leaflet which will be distributed at the Occupy Dallas protests tomorrow, > which addresses exactly these things (necessarily briefly, being a > leaflet!). It doesn't explicitly mention transhumanism, but the website > itself is of course chock-full of futurist, pro-tech, & transhumanist > sentiment. > If anyone agrees with the views expressed there, we would very much > appreciate you spreading the word. > http://zerostate.net That bit about an alternative government is a great way to discredit the movement. (Unless you actually have the armed force to overthrow the current government, which you don't, you'll be cracked down on and tossed in jail long before you accomplish any meaningful change, and most people know it. Thus, advocating for alternative government encourages people not to waste their time.) Almost like you're being paid to do this by the powers that be - yet another of those "astroturf" movements that the public is getting tired of. If you don't wish to give that impression, might I suggest something like this? "We will form a counter-tea party, to tap the grass roots anger of real ordinary Americans, and elect a Congress that will demand crackdowns on the corporate titans who have bought out our government, and the arrest of the leaders of both major parties under the RICO Act." That proposes a far more achievable course of action. If you need more space, the QR code can be usefully relocated to the top left or top right corner. From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 16:45:43 2011 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:45:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <1317671479.51779.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001e01cc8215$e762fcd0$b628f670$@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Funny to read these words from PT: > "The state can successfully push science; there is no sense denying > it. The Manhattan Project and the Apollo program remind us of this > possibility. Free markets may not fund as much basic research as > needed." > > Then he throws a jab: > "Men reached the moon in July 1969, and Woodstock began three weeks > later. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that this was when > the hippies took over the country, and when the true cultural war over > Progress was lost. Thiel just got it wrong, that's all. Everyone gets it wrong now and again, no matter how smart, no matter how big the ego. When the hippies got out of college, they discovered that their bosses in the world of work were the very brush-cut "bad guys" that they had been culturally railing against. For their own professional (ie work-related) advancement, they shed the tie-dyed, bell-bottomed garb for the suit-and-tie vestments of the establishment, and, for the most part, left the hippie culture behind, a fond memory of youthful exhuberance and glory. Thiel was born in '69, so he was clearly post-boomer. I can easily see how his ego would sanction dissing the dominant demographic -- the boomers (ex-hippies) -- of which he was not part. No, the "cultural war over Progress was lost" when Reagan was elected. That event marked the rise of "whack job conservatism", the rise of anti-science, pro-religion, back-to-the-fifties frothing anti-communism, war, war, and more war, worship of the military, never enough military spending, "American Exceptionalism" must rule the world by bombing the living crap out of it (exactly what the hippies had -- justly and smartly -- opposed) era, that led to Fox, Bush/Cheney, the mental defectives of the Tea Party, the Pandora's box of deregulation, and our current US decline and the larger global state of distress. All of it the result of "conservative " cannibals being unleashed on the world. But fear not. Life goes on. Even during the "great" depression with its 30% unemployment, 70% were stll employed. The smart ones prevail, and prosper, even in the worst of times. So what we have now is a Darwinian culling, courtesy of the defeat of the progressives by the Reagan revolution. The wife and I, now embarked in our yearly migration to our winter home in Baja, have landed briefly in Burlingame, Ca. Here is a beautiful little garden of a burb with new high-end everything. No downturn here. Plenty of conservatives to be sure, but none of the "whack job" types. Anyway, the world doesn't need American Exceptionalism. China and India will take up the slack. There's always some up-and-comer waiting to take up the slack. Stay smart. Stay ahead of the curve. Manage your finances smartly, and you'll be okay. The rantings of the media isn't truth, it's a business model. Best, Jeff Davis "While it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is nevertheless undeniable that practically all stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 16:23:41 2011 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:23:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The End of the Future Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > > I have beating this drum for a while now, and I am happy to see some > converging voices: > http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278758/end-future-peter-thiel?page=1. > > The issue remains only too often "can be done, cannot be done" as if > everything that can be done is going to happen by itself, or out of > extrapolations of past trends. See the debate on AI. > > Well, this is *not* the case. This is why I am speaking at the upcoming > London "Beyond Human" event on "How to make a Singularity happen". I replied on the National Review site The energy problem is at least solvable, though it will take more like tens of thousands of nuclear reactors worldwide to replace fossil fuel as it becomes harder to get. We probably have the fuel to keep them going over their 40-50 year life. However, it also seems like it would be worth taking a hard look at a 43-year-old proposal to collect solar energy in GEO and beam it back to the earth with microwaves. For this to make economic sense (i.e., less expensive than coal) the cost to lift the parts to GEO needs to come down to $100/kg. Because of the rotten mass ratio, that doesn't look possible for chemical fuels, in spite of Elon's impressive work with SpaceX. But it does seem to be fairly easy with the exhaust velocity possible from beamed energy propulsion. The high power laser diodes and gyrotron microwave generators that make beamed energy possible have only been available for a few years. The big names in beamed energy are Jordin Kare and Kevin Parkin. NASA Ames just bought Kevin a $2 M gyrotron that will let him test hydrogen heaters up to 10 MW/m^2. There is more here: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7898 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (end of article comment) There are things that might not be doable by free markets, particularly those involving companies run by Harvard MBAs that can't think beyond the next quarter. I am not optimistic about power satellites (and the required transport system) being built in the west at all. But if they are, it seems likely to be some kind of government mandate on the Manhattan Project or Apollo model. The problem, of course, is that goals those projects and how to do them were fairly clear. It's not so well understood how cheap transport into space gives low cost energy, and it is certainly not widely understood how beamed energy could get us there. Keith PS. There are some interesting articles around that discuss how following the short term improvements in cost by outsourcing to China was a long term disaster for US companies. From amon at doctrinezero.com Wed Oct 5 18:26:08 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 19:26:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 17:27, Adrian Tymes wrote: > 2011/10/5 Amon Zero : > > And on that note, at the top of the page linked below you will find a > > leaflet which will be distributed at the Occupy Dallas protests tomorrow, > > which addresses exactly these things (necessarily briefly, being a > > leaflet!). It doesn't explicitly mention transhumanism, but the website > > itself is of course chock-full of futurist, pro-tech, & transhumanist > > sentiment. > > If anyone agrees with the views expressed there, we would very much > > appreciate you spreading the word. > > http://zerostate.net > > That bit about an alternative government is a great way to discredit the > movement. (Unless you actually have the armed force to overthrow the > current government, which you don't, you'll be cracked down on and > tossed in jail long before you accomplish any meaningful change, and > most people know it. Thus, advocating for alternative government > encourages people not to waste their time.) > > Almost like you're being paid to do this by the powers that be - yet > another of those "astroturf" movements that the public is getting tired > of. > > If you don't wish to give that impression, might I suggest something > like this? "We will form a counter-tea party, to tap the grass roots > anger of real ordinary Americans, and elect a Congress that will > demand crackdowns on the corporate titans who have bought out our > government, and the arrest of the leaders of both major parties under > the RICO Act." That proposes a far more achievable course of action. > > If you need more space, the QR code can be usefully relocated to > the top left or top right corner. Hi Adrian - Thank you very much for the feedback - it's very much appreciated. Some reaction to the flyer was very (very) negative, and although we're not out to win popularity contests with those of opposing views, you're quite right that things were done in quite a rush (events are moving fast!), and several of us have become worried about giving the wrong impression of our attitude or ideas. The following has been posted across the various ZS groups: *********************** IMPORTANT! Folks, some of us are agreed that although the intention was good, I got the tone and some content of this leaflet badly wrong, so we're not going ahead with it. I hope that people will respect (or at least acknowledge) that it's important that we call it when we (or in this case, I!) get something wrong - otherwise we are no better than those we would criticise. We will not be disseminating leaflets in Dallas, and would like to have an earnest conversation about this from people with multiple points of view. Let's take a little time, and get this right. I do apologise, and hope I'm doing the right thing here. All the Best, Amon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Wed Oct 5 20:17:10 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:17:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 19:26, Amon Zero wrote: > >> If you don't wish to give that impression, might I suggest something >> like this? "We will form a counter-tea party, to tap the grass roots >> anger of real ordinary Americans, and elect a Congress that will >> demand crackdowns on the corporate titans who have bought out our >> government, and the arrest of the leaders of both major parties under >> the RICO Act." That proposes a far more achievable course of action. > > ps. I should clarify that I didn't intend an actual, running-the-country shadow government. But rather something like an elaborate citizen's forum, which runs a kind of model of what the people would like to see the real government doing. Which would mean listening to the people a lot in the first place. Of course with no space to explain such an idea, I got it badly, badly wrong. I stand by the sentiment, but as I've said elsewhere I'd rather check we've got the right omelette recipe before we start cracking eggs! Arresting extant politicians under laws meant for organised crime doesn't strike me as a plausible or even desirable option, but i do appreciate the effort to make sense of a clearly ambiguous statement on my part. So no arresting politicians, then. Now *bankers*, on the other hand... ;-) - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 20:39:19 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:39:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/5 Amon Zero : >?Arresting extant politicians under laws meant for organised crime doesn't > strike me as a plausible or even desirable option, but i do appreciate the > effort to make sense of a clearly ambiguous statement on my part. No problem. :) > So no arresting politicians, then. Now *bankers*, on the other hand... ? ;-) Where do you draw the line? Especially if said politicians simply squash any attempt to arrest said bankers, if you actually start doing something that matters. By "the leaders of", I wasn't thinking any sitting Congressperson or state legislator. Rather, the organizers of the political parties, who manage the donations. (And who might like to pretend they have the authority to order Congress to quash these investigations - but if any attempt to do so gets traced back to being orders from the very person being investigated, that does give cause to ignore the order to quash, no?) From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 20:14:00 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:14:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/5 Amon Zero : > Folks, some of us are agreed that although the intention was good, I got the > tone and some content of this leaflet badly wrong, so we're not going ahead > with it. I hope that people will respect (or at least acknowledge) that it's > important that we call it when we (or in this case, I!) get something wrong > - otherwise we are no better than those we would criticise. > We will not be disseminating leaflets in Dallas, and would like to have an > earnest conversation about this from people with multiple points of view. > Let's take a little time, and get this right. ...it is surprising and very heartening to hear that you do take constructive criticism into account. This will be essential if you are to win. After all, you are going against people who have been practicing these things for decades, and institutions that - in many cases - have had over 100 years to refine their techniques. You'll need to adopt some of their methods to have a chance; the challenge is to do that without becoming what you oppose. However, I suspect you'll find a more basic disagreement among your groups, as to what exactly is to be done. There is a lot of unformed anger out there, and politicians have already tarred the most basic methods of redress by promising them and then failing to deliver. ("Tax the rich"? Okay, exactly how much, and how are you going to get those taxes passed when enough Congresspeople have been bought out to block such proposals? Even the President has run into enough Representatives with no actual agenda other than to defeat his plans, that he can't get much done.) If I might make a suggestion: one thing you can do, if you have a geographically distributed group within the US, is simply to run candidates, under already-registered third parties such as the Libertarians, for state & federal legislatures. Target races where one of the Democratic or Republican parties simply aren't running anyone, no matter how non-viable, so that you become the opposition by default. Point out how the D/R candidate has sold out - for instance, in most tea party districts, you can point out how the major party candidate, while promising to represent the people, has consistently voted to represent the rich and only the rich. Then propose specific legislative measures - such as introducing bills to repeal the capital gains tax as separate from ordinary income - that your candidates can take that will obviously set them apart from this. But most importantly, just get your people on the ballot, in races where the voters currently don't have a choice - and actively recruit people to run. Lest you think I exaggerate, take a look at your ballot for last November. At least in California, and I suspect in most other states, once you get past the top few races (President, Senate, & Governor), you'll start seeing races where the third parties literally aren't on the ballot, because they simply didn't run a candidate. You may even find some where one of the major parties isn't there either, for the same reason. If you really want to get crafty, you might look for 2012 races where only one major party candidate will run, get someone on your list to run in that district, and then ask the other major party for funding - not in exchange for loyalty, but simply to tie up the opposition's resources (an "unexpected" third party run). From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Oct 5 21:08:32 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317848912.67356.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Wednesday, October 5, 2011 4:17 PM Amon Zero amon at doctrinezero.com?wrote: > So no arresting politicians, then. Now *bankers*, on the other hand... ? ;-) No time to follow all this discussion today, but I think people are missing that political power -- the kind politicians actually wield -- is far more dangerous and is at root the problem. The bankers power is derivative and relies on politicians and the government to enforce their position. In other words, were it not for the power of politicians and government, the bankers would be able to do very little damage. In fact, they would be reduced to the level of any other business that needed to cater to customer, attract investors, and worry about competitors. ? In today's world, for instance, banks have highly favored positions, including subsidies, regulations to protect them from competition, legal tender laws to prevent alternative monies (in effect, coercing customers to use them), and even a revolving door between their executives and those of regulatory boards and central banks. It's all one big happy family. ? On another list -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LeftLibertarian2/?-- George H. Smith quoted Bakunin today. I think it's relevant to this discussion: ? 'No one put the point better than the anarchist Bakunin in?his critique of socialists and Marxists: '"They are enemies of the powers-that-be only because they cannot take their place. They are enemies of the existing political institutions because such institutions preclude the possibility of carrying out their own dictatorship, but?they are at the same time the most ardent friends of State power, without which the Revolution, by freeing the toiling masses, would deprive this would-be revolutionary minority of all hope of putting the people into a new harness and heap upon them the blessings of their governmental measures...." '"If there is a State, there must necessarily be domination, and therefore slavery; a State without slavery, overt or concealed, is unthinkable -- and that is why we are enemies of the State." '(*The Political Philosophy of Bakunin,* ed. G.P. Maximoff,? Free Press, 1953, p. 284-5)' ? Put another way, it's as if we live under a absolute monarch and he hands out favors to certain bankers, businesspeople, clergy, professors, etc. and you're worried about arresting the latter, but would never ever contemplate questioning, much less arresting or overthrowing, the former. Don't you find that a bit strange? ? Regards, ? Dan From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 21:41:26 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:41:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Economic Calculation Debate/was Re: The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Dan wrote: > * Note: my claim is not that non-government folks are angels, saints, or geniuses at economic forecasting. > They are not perfect or of a different species than those in government. But those in government are no better > still and face two additions problems: they have little incentive for success or against failure as, for the most > part, they can shift costs to others as a matter of routine, and they face information problems that markets > solve ex ante -- even if such solutions are not perfect. > > That sounds pretty much like what I wrote. There are government failures and there are market failures and it is hard to tell which is worse. Markets (note - not the mythical free markets) routinely ignore externalities like pollution, slave labour, etc. and really like monopolies and cartels. Though many market failures are not as obvious as big government projects gone wrong. And, of course, many of the government failures are contracted out to private companies that immediately proceed to rip off the government for as much as they can get away with. BillK From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 5 21:48:05 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:48:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033101cc83a8$772883b0$65798b10$@att.net> 2011/10/5 Amon Zero : ... > So no arresting politicians, then. Now *bankers*, on the other hand... ? > ;-) Does it matter whether or not the bankers have done anything illegal? Does your movement differentiate between George Bailey and Mr. Potter? How? Or does it conclude that all money lending for profit is immoral? If so, there is a large and growing segment of the world's population that would agree with you, and would likely take you in as a convert. Entire countries in the middle east are going that route. Word of caution: It's a one-way trip. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 5 22:04:31 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 15:04:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033b01cc83aa$c2cebf30$486c3d90$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amon Zero >.I'd rather check we've got the right omelette recipe before we start cracking eggs! Good idea. Note the difference between a tea party rally and Occupy Wall Street. I read the signs for Occupy and I am completely flummoxed. I don't know what they want. Do you? It is easy to tell how the tea party feels, but Occupy seems like a huge collection of incompatible elements. OK, so now you have occupied Wall Street. Now what? The business that goes on there doesn't necessarily require physical presence. >.Arresting extant politicians under laws meant for organised crime doesn't strike me as a plausible or even desirable option, but i do appreciate the effort to make sense of a clearly ambiguous statement on my part. Amon, you are not alone. I see the interviews with the occupiers, and have yet to see a coherent statement on what is the actual goal. The tea party doesn't seem to suffer from that. Their message is perfectly clear: smaller government, Taxed Enough Already. So is Occupy ready to stand up for bigger government? How big? Is occupy ready to define what they mean by tax the rich? How rich? How much? >.So no arresting politicians, then. Now *bankers*, on the other hand... ;-) Hmmm, ja. Better think that one through just a bit. >.I'd rather check we've got the right omelette recipe before we start cracking eggs! - A >From what I have seen so far, the eggs will start cracking the occupiers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 6 01:02:26 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:02:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] just for fun Message-ID: <038701cc83c3$9d77fe90$d867fbb0$@att.net> NASA satellite falls on car. http://www.wimp.com/nasasatellite/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Thu Oct 6 06:55:06 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:55:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <033b01cc83aa$c2cebf30$486c3d90$@att.net> References: <033b01cc83aa$c2cebf30$486c3d90$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/5 spike > * > * > > Good idea. Note the difference between a tea party rally and Occupy Wall > Street. I read the signs for Occupy and I am completely flummoxed. I don?t > know what they want. Do you? It is easy to tell how the tea party feels, > but Occupy seems like a huge collection of incompatible elements. OK, so > now you have occupied Wall Street. Now what? The business that goes on > there doesn?t necessarily require physical presence. > Hey Spike - Yeah, I agree entirely. I do sympathise greatly with the Occupy protestors, but I don't believe that their protests will change anything significant. There just isn't any mechanism in place for such a change. The best they could hope for would be to spark something else more effective, or to sap the establishment's political will to push through particular initiatives (but the protests are too vague - and the situation too late - for even that, I think). This is of course nothing new, and is common to most large "left-wing" flavoured protests which involve disparate factions coming together over one issue: there isn't a clear goal or positive message, just a rejection of some state of affairs. A movement that could offer viable alternatives to flawed models or clear, effective goals at the very least would be a vast improvement. The other thing I should point out is that I'm not anti-Capitalist, per se. As it said in the leaflet, I 'merely' advocate a society in which capitalism has a healthy role and level of influence within society, but is not allowed disproportionate control. Capitalism (or the banking system, more specifically) should not be the be-all and end-all of society, in my opinion. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Thu Oct 6 07:00:59 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:00:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 21:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Where do you draw the line? Especially if said politicians simply squash > any attempt to arrest said bankers, if you actually start doing something > that matters. > That's a good question, and one I don't have a ready answer to I'm afraid. The logical thing would be to focus on behaviours rather than people, and focus on people who have crossed some kind of line. Common sense would suggest that this line is of course provided by the law. The problem is that if wealthy & powerful people influence politics, they also influence law, and many of the behaviours that I personally object to are legal, as a matter of definition. I know it sounds "kooky", and is a terrible cliche, but after a few times around this particular logical block it starts to look like a radical revision of the entire system is in order, and systemic revision of the magnitude we're talking usually goes by the name "revolution". And of course, you are quite correct that the matters of ideals/goals and strategies/methods are distinct, if not independent. Any would-be radical reformer has to approach the entire problem from extremely creative angles, or they won't get past the first hurdle. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Thu Oct 6 07:04:42 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:04:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 21:14, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > ...it is surprising and very heartening to hear that you do take > constructive > criticism into account. > > If I might make a suggestion:... > Thanks for that Adrian - both the acknowledgment and the suggestion. It is an unfortunate truth that anyone who wants to get a message out has to present a certain degree of confidence, and therfore cannot afford more than one or two mis-steps, retractions, re-thinks etc, but I think it's very important that these matters are addressed intelligently rather than reduced to posturing. Your suggestion is a good one, I think, very interesting indeed. Thanks. I'll think on that and pass it on to the others for further discussion. All the Best, A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Thu Oct 6 09:30:04 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:30:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism In-Reply-To: <1317848912.67356.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1317848912.67356.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 22:08, Dan wrote: > No time to follow all this discussion today, but I think people are missing > that political power -- the kind politicians actually wield -- is far more > dangerous and is at root the problem. The bankers power is derivative and > relies on politicians and the government to enforce their position. In other > words, were it not for the power of politicians and government, the bankers > would be able to do very little damage. In fact, they would be reduced to > the level of any other business that needed to cater to customer, attract > investors, and worry about competitors. > > Put another way, it's as if we live under a absolute monarch and he hands > out favors to certain bankers, businesspeople, clergy, professors, etc. and > you're worried about arresting the latter, but would never ever contemplate > questioning, much less arresting or overthrowing, the former. Don't you find > that a bit strange? > Thanks for that Dan. Yes, I agree, this is indeed a perfectly valid point. There is no clear line between the financial and other industries and government. Which is of course rather the point. And, as you say, any aspiring alternative to a particular order must be careful not to become what it opposes, or indeed become something worse. I personally do not believe that agreement with that point must automatically lead to an endorsement of anarchism, or libertarianism, however. I think it's safe to say that we can imagine anarchist or libertarian societies which end up imposing systems just as problematic as their predecessors, possibly even more so. I'm not saying that anarchism or libertarianism are intrinsically flawed here (that would be another debate, for another day), but that anarchism and libertarianism are not exempt from the "this may all go horribly wrong" clause. No-one is. For example, say an anarcho-capitalist solution to current governance were somehow enacted (I'll sidestep the earlier issue of how exactly such a transition might take place), and certain parties were to take advantage of the new scheme to the systematic detriment of others. The "revolutionaries" in this case wouldn't have formed a government, but they'd still be culpable for the negative outcome. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 13:11:45 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:11:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation Message-ID: A Wired article has reminded me that it is governments & war that drives technological innovation. Gadgets the Pentagon Made ? From the Microwave to the New iPhone * By Spencer Ackerman and Noah Shachtman October 6, 2011 ------------------- When you add in the huge wave of technology that came out of WWII, it is really obvious. Sure, inventions are made by genius individuals, but they sre usually working for the government, or for organisations funded by government money. 'Markets' are just hobbyists tinkering at the edges in comparison, selling stuff the government invented for them. BillK From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Oct 6 15:59:40 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Economic Calculation Debate In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317916780.26935.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Wednesday, October 5, 2011 5:41 PM BillK pharos at gmail.com?wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Dan wrote: > >> * Note: my claim is not that non-government folks are angels, saints, >> or geniuses at economic forecasting. They are not perfect or of a >> different species than those in government. But those in government >> are no better still and face two additions problems: they have little >> incentive for success or against failure as, for the most part, they >> can shift costs to others as a matter of routine, and they face >> information problems that markets solve ex ante -- even if such >> solutions are not perfect. > > That sounds pretty much like what I wrote. > > There are government failures and there are market failures and it is > hard to tell which is worse. Not excactly. Government failures are a bit different from market ones. In essence, too, market failures are not usually ones that can be seen ex ante for the most part. The examples you give below, also, are not strictly market failures. (Just as a conceptual matter, one can't tell what's a negative externality* until one knows who owns what to see how damage is being done or costs inflicted on someone else.) Externalities depend on how property rights are assigned and in extant societies this is done by government and often shifted to allow the kinds of externalities to flourish. For instance, pollution,?as a negative externality, tends to happen, it seems to me, because property rights are not clearly defined or not consistently enforced. Were they clearly defined and consistently enforced in the 19th century, factory pollution might have been lessened to the point of being unimportant -- as Rothbard pointed in his examination of just this case. ? > Markets (note - not the mythical free markets) ? In order to decide what's market caused and government caused (not that these exhaust the field) in any situation, one must be able to conceptual distinguish what would result under fully free market conditions -- even if these never have come about and have at best only been approximated rarely. Of course, one must be very careful here not to paint the picture of a free market that has impossible featues, such as perfect information or instantaneous adjustments to changes. Sadly, much mainstream economic modeling does rely on such impossible idealizations. Austrian economists, however, for the most part, do not rely on this. This is why it's been called the economics of "time and ignorance." (Which is an allusion to _Economics of Time and Ignorance_ by O'Driscoll?and Rizzo.) ? >?routinely ignore > externalities like pollution, slave labour, etc. and really like > monopolies and cartels. ? To expand on some of these -- but not to deny market failures, just to point out the examples you give are not unambiguous instances of market failure -- as with pollution, the others you mention all have a huge government component. Slave labor, for example, usually requires government enforcement. The US is a good example of this. State and federal enforcement of fugitive slave laws helped to redistribute the costs of monitoring and capturing slaves from slave holders to the tax base. In other words, absent the government enforcing slavery, slave holders would have had to bear the full cost of keeping their slaves --?preventing them from running away and never returning or, worse, returning to get their families and friends out of bondage, would have been a cost the holders would have to bear instead of society at large. ? Monopolies and cartels, likewise, are a problem because they are, in the former case, creations of government -- else, how to would be monopolists prevent others from entering into competition with them -- and the latter tend to need government aid to maintain them -- as the temptations to defect are often very strong and the costs of maintaining cartels high. It's notable that the government itself is a monopoly -- usually one in law enforcement, security, and justice -- and also that some of the most effective cartles are those sanctioned by governments or even made up of government run business, such as OPEC. ? >?Though many market failures are not as obvious > as big government projects gone wrong. And, of course, many of the > government failures are contracted out to private companies that > immediately proceed to rip off the government for as much as they can > get away with. ? In this case, though, the failure is of what? If you removed government from the situation, what or who?would the private companies be able to rip off on such a grand scale? (Note: yes, private companies and individuals do lie, cheat, and steal. Their misbehavior, though, tends to be highly circumscribed when they can't couple this with government? Why? If they are limited to either voluntary transactions, then?people who get lied to, cheated, and stolen from tend to learn quickly and avoid them. Others, also, can observe this and avoid the liers, cheaters, and thieves.?Evenjust private acts of coercion tend to be highly localized. If you want to rob one person, sure, it can be done, but it's extremely hard to rob a nation -- unless you have either government or an army backing you. Even legendary private?thieves or cheaters of our time, such as Madoff, tend to be a drop in a bucket compared to government theft and cheater. The same goes for acts of violence. One person might kill a few dozen, but if you want to bucther millions you need a state to do that.) ? Finally, market mechanisms** are the means of coping with economic problems. While they might not be perfect, there's no way around them or outside them. Governments do no possess special information or, as one can see from history, special insight. When governments act, they tend to distory and make much worse an already imperfect situation. The hubris is for central planners and the like to believe they have such information and insights. Add to this, the fact that such planners have little incentive to get it right -- they're gambling not with their wealth and lives but with everyone else's -- should give one pause -- and this should be the case whether one is talking about planning a whole economy or just an industry, a city, or a neighborhood. (And the fact that this all involves coercion should give even more pause. Planners are persuading others to try their plan -- with the option of disagreeing always on the table. Instead, they are forcing others to do as their plans, however well intentioned, dictate.) ? Regards, ? Dan ? * I leave aside positive externalities for the moment. Cf. Roy Cordato's _Welfare Economics and Externalities in an Open Ended Universe_ for some of the difficulties involved in handling positive externalities. ? ** Things like the price system. Don't confuse this with actual businesses. Again, recognizing markets work here doesn't mean praising businesses are even being pro-business. In fact, proper functioning of market mechanism often involves firms going under. This likely should've happened with many banks recently and with some airlines and big car companies early in the last decade. GM should have, IMO, been allowed to fail -- not rescued with a bailout because of its political connections and the political pull of its unions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Thu Oct 6 16:22:41 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Economic Calculation Debate In-Reply-To: <1317916780.26935.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317916780.26935.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317918161.9533.YahooMailNeo@web112119.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dan Ust wrote: ? > GM should have, IMO, been allowed to fail -- not rescued > with a bailout because of its political connections and the > political pull of its unions. ? Too big to fail is a myth.? There were hundreds of small automobile manufacturers scattered across the United States at one time - and large numbers of small aircraft manufacturers as well.? A couple years ago I did some work in a dry storage warehouse in a small town in Missouri which used to be an aircraft manufacturing plant.? Government intererence in the market prevents the kind of freedom to manufacture that existed just a few short generations ago. ? Dennis May ________________________________ From: Dan To: ExI chat list Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Economic Calculation Debate On?Wednesday, October 5, 2011 5:41 PM BillK pharos at gmail.com?wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Dan wrote: > >> * Note: my claim is not that non-government folks are angels, saints, >> or geniuses at economic forecasting. They are not perfect or of a >> different species than those in government. But those in government >> are no better still and face two additions problems: they have little >> incentive for success or against failure as, for the most part, they >> can shift costs to others as a matter of routine, and they face >> information problems that markets solve ex ante -- even if such >> solutions are not perfect. > > That sounds pretty much like what I wrote. > > There are government failures and there are market failures and it is > hard to tell which is worse. Not excactly. Government failures are a bit different from market ones. In essence, too, market failures are not usually ones that can be seen ex ante for the most part. The examples you give below, also, are not strictly market failures. (Just as a conceptual matter, one can't tell what's a negative externality* until one knows who owns what to see how damage is being done or costs inflicted on someone else.) Externalities depend on how property rights are assigned and in extant societies this is done by government and often shifted to allow the kinds of externalities to flourish. For instance, pollution,?as a negative externality, tends to happen, it seems to me, because property rights are not clearly defined or not consistently enforced. Were they clearly defined and consistently enforced in the 19th century, factory pollution might have been lessened to the point of being unimportant -- as Rothbard pointed in his examination of just this case. ? > Markets (note - not the mythical free markets) ? In order to decide what's market caused and government caused (not that these exhaust the field) in any situation, one must be able to conceptual distinguish what would result under fully free market conditions -- even if these never have come about and have at best only been approximated rarely. Of course, one must be very careful here not to paint the picture of a free market that has impossible featues, such as perfect information or instantaneous adjustments to changes. Sadly, much mainstream economic modeling does rely on such impossible idealizations. Austrian economists, however, for the most part, do not rely on this. This is why it's been called the economics of "time and ignorance." (Which is an allusion to _Economics of Time and Ignorance_ by O'Driscoll?and Rizzo.) ? >?routinely ignore > externalities like pollution, slave labour, etc. and really like > monopolies and cartels. ? To expand on some of these -- but not to deny market failures, just to point out the examples you give are not unambiguous instances of market failure -- as with pollution, the others you mention all have a huge government component. Slave labor, for example, usually requires government enforcement. The US is a good example of this. State and federal enforcement of fugitive slave laws helped to redistribute the costs of monitoring and capturing slaves from slave holders to the tax base. In other words, absent the government enforcing slavery, slave holders would have had to bear the full cost of keeping their slaves --?preventing them from running away and never returning or, worse, returning to get their families and friends out of bondage, would have been a cost the holders would have to bear instead of society at large. ? Monopolies and cartels, likewise, are a problem because they are, in the former case, creations of government -- else, how to would be monopolists prevent others from entering into competition with them -- and the latter tend to need government aid to maintain them -- as the temptations to defect are often very strong and the costs of maintaining cartels high. It's notable that the government itself is a monopoly -- usually one in law enforcement, security, and justice -- and also that some of the most effective cartles are those sanctioned by governments or even made up of government run business, such as OPEC. ? >?Though many market failures are not as obvious > as big government projects gone wrong. And, of course, many of the > government failures are contracted out to private companies that > immediately proceed to rip off the government for as much as they can > get away with. ? In this case, though, the failure is of what? If you removed government from the situation, what or who?would the private companies be able to rip off on such a grand scale? (Note: yes, private companies and individuals do lie, cheat, and steal. Their misbehavior, though, tends to be highly circumscribed when they can't couple this with government? Why? If they are limited to either voluntary transactions, then?people who get lied to, cheated, and stolen from tend to learn quickly and avoid them. Others, also, can observe this and avoid the liers, cheaters, and thieves.?Evenjust private acts of coercion tend to be highly localized. If you want to rob one person, sure, it can be done, but it's extremely hard to rob a nation -- unless you have either government or an army backing you. Even legendary private?thieves or cheaters of our time, such as Madoff, tend to be a drop in a bucket compared to government theft and cheater. The same goes for acts of violence. One person might kill a few dozen, but if you want to bucther millions you need a state to do that.) ? Finally, market mechanisms** are the means of coping with economic problems. While they might not be perfect, there's no way around them or outside them. Governments do no possess special information or, as one can see from history, special insight. When governments act, they tend to distory and make much worse an already imperfect situation. The hubris is for central planners and the like to believe they have such information and insights. Add to this, the fact that such planners have little incentive to get it right -- they're gambling not with their wealth and lives but with everyone else's -- should give one pause -- and this should be the case whether one is talking about planning a whole economy or just an industry, a city, or a neighborhood. (And the fact that this all involves coercion should give even more pause. Planners are persuading others to try their plan -- with the option of disagreeing always on the table. Instead, they are forcing others to do as their plans, however well intentioned, dictate.) ? Regards, ? Dan ? * I leave aside positive externalities for the moment. Cf. Roy Cordato's _Welfare Economics and Externalities in an Open Ended Universe_ for some of the difficulties involved in handling positive externalities. ? ** Things like the price system. Don't confuse this with actual businesses. Again, recognizing markets work here doesn't mean praising businesses are even being pro-business. In fact, proper functioning of market mechanism often involves firms going under. This likely should've happened with many banks recently and with some airlines and big car companies early in the last decade. GM should have, IMO, been allowed to fail -- not rescued with a bailout because of its political connections and the political pull of its unions. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 6 16:26:23 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:26:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <033b01cc83aa$c2cebf30$486c3d90$@att.net> Message-ID: <00b501cc8444$b0ae0960$120a1c20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amon Zero Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:55 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) 2011/10/5 spike Good idea. Note the difference between a tea party rally and Occupy Wall Street. I read the signs for Occupy and I am completely flummoxed. I don't know what they want. Do you? .. >Hey Spike - Yeah, I agree entirely. I do sympathise greatly with the Occupy protestors, but I don't believe that their protests will change anything significant.The other thing I should point out is that I'm not anti-Capitalist, per se. As it said in the leaflet, I 'merely' advocate a society in which capitalism has a healthy role and level of influence within society, but is not allowed disproportionate control. Capitalism (or the banking system, more specifically) should not be the be-all and end-all of society, in my opinion. - A Ja, but more specifically, what is it that is being promoted with Occupy? That is what I still don't get. About 15 yrs ago, there were a number of anti-capitalism rallies in San Jose, not big ones, but they were getting attention. They had the same problem then: down with capitalism, so up with. what? A number of us decided to counter-protest, so we all got out there and carried Up With Capitalism signs. It was a hoot, really a lot of fun. Several of us showed up in our business clothes, so there we were out there in wool suit and tie, carrying signs supporting the status quo. I don't really see the Occupy folks specifically promoting anything. If they want to imprison the top 1% and seize their wealth, suddenly there is a new top 1%. Do they suggest seizing them too? And then what about the next new 1%? Rinse and repeat? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Oct 6 14:51:20 2011 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:51:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You've put your finger on an interesting paradox. As a good Hobbesian, I believe that governments exist primarily for two purposes: to enable one small group of people to exploit a larger group of people and to enable that same small group of people to protect that same larger group of people from being exploited or destroyed in a presumably even more awful way by some other small group of people. An extortion racket, in other words, but not dispensable, since the threat of destruction without a government is very real. However, the paradox is that for the past five hundred years (probably more) wars have always been won by the combatant with the strongest economy, and usually that has meant the freest economy. Liberal England vs centralized Napoleonic France, the capitalist democratic Allies vs. the National Socialists, etc. The technological and financial inventions that made the more liberal governments stronger did NOT come from the government, but in time of war, WERE put to good use by the government. Tara Maya On Oct 6, 2011, at 6:11 AM, BillK wrote: > A Wired article has reminded me that it is governments & war that > drives technological innovation. > > > > Gadgets the Pentagon Made ? From the Microwave to the New iPhone > * By Spencer Ackerman and Noah Shachtman October 6, 2011 > ------------------- > > When you add in the huge wave of technology that came out of WWII, it > is really obvious. > > Sure, inventions are made by genius individuals, but they sre usually > working for the government, or for organisations funded by government > money. > 'Markets' are just hobbyists tinkering at the edges in comparison, > selling stuff the government invented for them. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From dennislmay at yahoo.com Thu Oct 6 17:21:06 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Professional Street Protesters Training Program Message-ID: <1317921666.51675.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Recruitment among successful organizers for the next level - political appointments sure to follow - inquire within. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Oct 6 17:25:59 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Good things that come from war are merely an example of?the broken window fallacy. ? Regards, ? Dan From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 18:29:28 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 19:29:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <1317481548.56838.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1317481548.56838.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/1 john clark wrote: > It seems to me that at this point we don't need yet another theoretical explanation of why the OPERA > results just can't be true, we already know that current theory says it just can't be true; what we need > are new experimental results that either refute or confirm OPERA. And if it is confirmed (a very big if) > then it doesn't matter if theoreticians say it just can't be true, nature doesn't care if scientists can explain > it or not, that's their problem not nature's. > > My previous reference was to one paper on why FTL neutrinos was impossible. Slashdot is now pointing to a paper with an explanation of the error in the experiment. "Two weeks ago, researchers claimed particles called neutrinos were travelling faster-than-light and violating the laws of special relativity. But now it looks as though general relativity might be behind the experiment's unusual result. An independent analysis claims that the original experiment, known as OPERA, failed to take into account differences in earth's gravitational field between the neutrino source and the OPERA detector. As Nature News reports, gravity can distort time according to Einstein's theory, and the effect could explain why neutrinos appear to arrive 60 nanoseconds ahead of schedule. The OPERA team is now reviewing the new analysis." ----------------- Basically it is problem with synchronising the clocks at either end of the experiment. BillK From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 6 19:50:10 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1317930610.20802.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Oct 6, 2011, at 2:29 PM, BillK wrote: - My previous reference was to one paper on why FTL neutrinos was impossible. Slashdot is now pointing to a paper with an explanation of the error in the experiment. "Two weeks ago, researchers claimed particles called neutrinos were travelling faster-than-light and violating the laws of special relativity. But now it looks as though general relativity might be behind the experiment's unusual result. An independent analysis claims that the original experiment, known as OPERA, failed to take into account differences in earth's gravitational field between the neutrino source and the OPERA detector. As Nature News reports, gravity can distort time according to Einstein's theory, and the effect could explain why neutrinos appear to arrive 60 nanoseconds ahead of schedule. The OPERA team is now reviewing the new analysis." ----------------- Basically it is problem with synchronising the clocks at either end of the experiment." The GPS unit in your car has to take General Relativity into account to synchronize its clock with the clocks in navigation satellites, it does this so well that you know your position within 5 to 10? feet.? And this piece of equiptment only cost a hundred dollars or so, the idea that the OPERA people with their massive budget tried to do the same thing but were off by more than 60 feet is very hard to believe, and the idea that despite checking and rechecking the experiment for 10 months looking for errors some of the smartest people on the planet forgot to consider General Relativity is even harder to believe than that faster than light particles exist.? They say the error is only 20 centimeters and that's much easier to believe than 18 meters. OPERA may well have a subtle error in it somewhere but I'll bet money its not an error they could have found when their shift was over and they walked to their car in the parking lot right next to the lab ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 19:47:11 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:47:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The new Transhuman Space supplement Message-ID: "Transhuman Space" is a great pen and paper science fiction roleplaying game that shows a world transformed by technological progress in AGI, robotics, nanotech, space colonization, and biotech. This supplement material is now out: *Martial Arts 2100*: http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-6713 John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 20:37:57 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:37:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <1317930610.20802.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1317930610.20802.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/6 john clark wrote: > The GPS unit in your car has to take General Relativity into account to synchronize its clock with the > clocks in navigation satellites, it does this so well that you know your position within 5 to 10? feet. > And this piece of equiptment only cost a hundred dollars or so, the idea that the OPERA people with > their massive budget tried to do the same thing but were off by more than 60 feet is very hard to believe, > and the idea that despite checking and rechecking the experiment for 10 months looking for errors some > of the smartest people on the planet forgot to consider General Relativity is even harder to believe than > that faster than light particles exist.? They say the error is only 20 centimeters and that's much easier > to believe than 18 meters. > > OPERA may well have a subtle error in it somewhere but I'll bet money its not an error they could have > found when their shift was over and they walked to their car in the parking lot right next to the lab > > You didn't read the paper, did you? Perhaps you should read it first, then you might rethink your sarcasm. The scientists trying to find the flaw in the experiment are probably equally as capable as the OPERA scientists. BillK From dan_ust at yahoo.com Thu Oct 6 21:39:40 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> References: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:16 PM?Tara Maya tara at taramayastales.com?wrote: >> Good things that come from war are merely an example of the broken window fallacy. > > True, except insofar as it goes that the motivation not to be wiped out by a more >?advanced nation is still the bottom line reason not to simply walk away from >?technology altogether and join the Naavi. It merely draws R&D down certain lines of work while consuming many resources in the process. In my opinion, better to avoid war all together than to arm for it or engage in it in hopes that it'll bring us tech goodies at some later date. ? And this would still be a broken window fallacy: things would be better if the war didn't happen in the first place, just like the hypothetical baker in broken window fallacy hypothetical still must replace his store window. The community as a whole just isn't better off for him doing so. ? Regards, ? Dan From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 6 22:10:46 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:10:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Dan > > ... In my opinion, better to avoid war all together than to arm for it ...Dan History's lesson is that the way to avoid war altogether is to arm for it. Weakness is provocation. spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 20:15:28 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:15:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Economic Calculation Debate/was Re: The End of the Future In-Reply-To: <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 15:29, Dan wrote: > Also, actual real world planners, despite all their failures, past and present, are not all fools who never decided to use computers and try new methods. They've done and the record is dismal. I apologise if I sounded insulting when using the word "religious", but at least in this case the term referred to beliefs in empirical facts that allegedly could not be be disproved *in principle*. I may well have myself, consciously or inconsciously, my own "religious" stances, but I am Popperian enough in this respect to think that factual statements, as opposed to formal truths and philosophical preferences, have a meaning only inasmuch as they can be falsified by possible developments. Let us assume, for the sake of discussion, that the Market is a perfectly efficient and infallible way to allocate resources in a given context. Even there, the Market is nothing else that the sum of the decisions of "n" market players. Now, those market players take those decisions making use of organic brains, with some support by other computational resources. Provided that one accepts the idea that all the brains and computers and behaviours of each market player can be emulated by a sufficiently powerful system, it is incomprehensible how one can at the same time claim that such system would be inevitably be defeated by the Market itself. To make things even more extreme, let us imagine that we live in a VR world, ? la Deutsch. Wouldn't the computer running it equate by definition the performance of the "market" perceived by the sentients subroutines living therein? This for the philosophical angle. For the practical one, we are indeniably becoming better and better in dealing with micromanagement of larger and larger organisations, and without anti-trust legislation or State intervention there is no obvious reason why scale economies and critical mass should not continue deploying their potentials, or why smaller fish should not be eaten by bigger ones, which are likely to employ, inter alia, better and more extensive computational resources and better access to finance. One has just to try and create a motor company or a processor fab from scratch with a couple of friends to realise that. Let us now take a hypothetical very successful conglomerate. Markets imply that there are winners and losers, and of course losers may end up being Darwinianly eliminated. Let us say that such conglomerate is so successful that in a given territory (practically) all inhabitants are shareholders thereof. Moreover, that (practically) all of them end up being employed by it. And that it caters to (practically) all the needs of the consumers who are as well its employees and shareholders, as well as becomes owner of (practically) all the means of production. All of that as a mere consequence of normal market mechanisms and of consensual transactions. Just the ordinary working of the Invisible Hand, nothing else. Now, it would appear dubious that this conglomerate would ever relinquish its freedom to continue making use of an organisational model based on ERP, lest its place be taken by somebody else less conditioned by ideological biases. And yet, what would the relevant society be considered as anything else than a "planned" economy? This is not to say that all that is plausible, desirable, or likely to happen anytime soon. But one would think that before declaring something "impossible" some more thought should be given to the subject... -- Stefano Vaj From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 22:53:11 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:53:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> References: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike wrote: >Weakness is provocation. Spike, we both better start lifting weights! John ; ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 23:01:50 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 16:01:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> Message-ID: Tara Maya wrote: However, the paradox is that for the past five hundred years (probably more) wars have always been won by the combatant with the strongest economy, and usually that has meant the freest economy. Liberal England vs centralized Napoleonic France, the capitalist democratic Allies vs. the National Socialists, etc. The technological and financial inventions that made the more liberal governments stronger did NOT come from the government, but in time of war, WERE put to good use by the government. >>> And so what does this say about the rivalry between the United States and Communist China? They will fairly soon have the bigger economy, and is ours really the most free? We do have the technological edge, but that is steadily eroding due to the massive Chinese espionage program aimed against us, their demand that all foreign companies working in their nation divulge all manufacturing tech secrets, and also because of the major resources China is spending to modernize their military and nation in general. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 6 23:06:30 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 16:06:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> Message-ID: <001301cc847c$95e73330$c1b59990$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] War drives innovation Spike wrote: >>Weakness is provocation. >.Spike, we both better start lifting weights! John ; ) On the contrary sir, you and I live in a nation where bearing arms is a right. This is a great equalizer, for the bad guy doesn't know for sure if I am armed. This adds meaning to the phrase "Do you feel lucky?" spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 01:05:19 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Economic Calculation Debate/was Re: The End of the Future In-Reply-To: References: <038001cc81e7$9e0f40d0$da2dc270$@att.net> <4E8ABAF5.8030500@aleph.se> <1317740654.56809.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317748791.72494.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317751630.62058.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317760360.95881.YahooMailNeo@web112117.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1317766362.16631.YahooMailNeo@web160620.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1317824980.51757.YahooMailNeo@web160604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317949519.50286.YahooMailNeo@web112109.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Stefano Vaj wrote: > Let us assume, for the sake of discussion, that the Market is a > perfectly efficient and infallible way to allocate resources in a > given context. Even there, the Market is nothing else that the sum of > the decisions of "n" market players. Now, those market players take > those decisions making use of organic brains, with some support by > other computational resources. ? OK lets assume, for the sake of discussion,?that each player in the market can model the entire market and the central planners who are attempting to control that market.? Will each player change his behavior based on that knowledge or?his knowledge and behavior to remain static - an unrealistic assumption.? ? "n" market players with knowledge and capabilities equal to the central planner will compete with each other and with the central planners.? Or are the central planners to forbid knowledge and changes of behavior while implementing their model? ? Stefano Vaj wrote: > Provided that one accepts the idea that all the brains and computers > and behaviours of each market player can be emulated by a sufficiently > powerful system, it is incomprehensible how one can at the same time > claim that such system would be inevitably be defeated by the Market > itself. ? The independent self interested players in the market will react to the controls - once they do so the artificial pricing structure directed by the central planners will be wrong leading to shortages or wasted production in items for which there is no market.? The only way to avoid that would be to continually downloads of all of the brains of all of the players in the market and all of the information present in the market continually.? After this impossible task you then need a model of how the players will interact even while they know they are having all of their information downloaded. ? Stefano Vaj wrote: ? > For the practical one, we are indeniably becoming better and better in > dealing with micromanagement of larger and larger organisations, ... ? I disagree - I have worked for government, large corporations, and small corporations.? There are severe information bottlenecks leading to very real knowledge problems the larger an organization get.? The more micromanagement employed the greater the inefficiencies and more serious the information bottlenecks. ? Stefano Vaj wrote: > ...without anti-trust legislation or State intervention there is no > obvious reason why scale economies and critical mass should not > continue deploying their potentials, or why smaller fish should not be > eaten by bigger ones, ... ? Large corporations invite anti-trust legislation?and?State intervention stifling smaller competitors and raising the costs of entry into the market. They complain all the way - while meeting with legislators and?writing the rules they want to live by. ? Stefano Vaj wrote: >?One has just to try and create a motor company or a processor > fab from scratch with a couple of friends to realise that. ? Central planners are the primary barrier to entry in any market. Stefano Vaj wrote: ? > This is not to say that all that is plausible, desirable, or likely > to happen anytime soon. But one would think that before declaring > something "impossible" some more thought should be given to the > subject... ? The first task of any central planner is to control information available to those they control.? This leads to an information issue among players in the market [market uncertainty] leading to reduced efficiency.? The "n" players in the?market necessarily react to the plans of the central planners.? The?interests of central planners do not necessarily coincide with many of the interests of the "n" players.? In the real world central planners work to benefit?the interest of central planners - not those they control.? In the real world the "n" players see their interests at odds with the goals of central planners and react accordingly - leading to reduced productivity, less creativity, and increased efforts to avoid the efforts of central planners. ? I would continue to say that it is "impossible" for central planners to produce better results than the free market.? The assumptions of what is required for central planners to do better are impossible. They simply can never gather the information to make correct decisions - it is a serial computer attempting to control a massively parallel computer - each component of which has the potential to have?better information than the serial computer. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 01:11:29 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> References: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317949889.89530.YahooMailNeo@web112115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dan Ust wrote: ? > ... In my opinion, better to avoid war all together than to arm for it ...Dan Spike wrote: ? > History's lesson is that the way to avoid war altogether is to arm for it. > Weakness is provocation. ? The happy medium is to let private security agencies arm themselves as they see fit.? If they invest wisely in advanced weapons which prevent war they have done so by non-coercive means while avoiding the terrible cost of actual war. ? A well armed populace is a deterrent to invasion.? Advanced abilities to deal with issues anywhere on the globe can deter?some kinds of attacks.? A very big topic in general. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 01:22:02 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: <1317921959.82214.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <29E514CE-1B90-402D-B4E4-1CFE4C5E014B@taramayastales.com> <1317937180.63267.YahooMailNeo@web160618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <000001cc8474$ccc6dfc0$66549f40$@att.net> Message-ID: <1317950522.14160.YahooMailNeo@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Tara Maya wrote: > However, the paradox is that for the past five hundred years (probably more) > wars have always been won by the combatant with the strongest economy, > and usually that has meant the freest economy. Liberal England vs centralized > Napoleonic France, the capitalist democratic Allies vs. the National Socialists, > etc. The technological and financial inventions that made the more liberal > governments stronger did NOT come from the government, but in time of war, > WERE put to good use by the government. John Grigg wrote: > And so what does this say about the rivalry between the United States and > Communist China?? They will fairly soon have the bigger economy,?and is > ours really the most free?? We do have the technological edge, but that is > steadily?eroding due to the massive Chinese espionage program aimed against > us, their demand that all foreign companies working in their nation divulge > all manufacturing?tech?secrets,?and also because of?the major resources China > is spending to modernize their military and?nation in general. It is a real question whether the United States has the economic freedom to successfully compete with China.??Chinese central planning prevents innovation but they are very good at reverse engineering.? They are sitting on a powder keg of internal problems and bad internal investment.? On the other hand they have their fingers in resources around the world, control of trade routes, and everyone owes them money.? I suspect the economic problems in the US and Europe could destabilize?China if it gets much worse - then everyone in the world has a bad day - even the central planners who caused the problem thinking they had the knowledge necessary for economic planning. Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 03:02:53 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:02:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/6 Amon Zero : > It is > an unfortunate truth that anyone who wants to get a message out has to > present a certain degree of confidence, and therfore cannot afford more than > one or two mis-steps, retractions, re-thinks etc, but I think it's very > important that these matters are addressed intelligently rather than reduced > to posturing. Agreed. Which makes lists like this useful: you can refine ideas and get others to spot the obvious-to-everyone-but-yourself flaws that always exist in the first draft of anything complex. > Your suggestion is a good one, I think, very interesting indeed. Thanks. > I'll think on that and pass it on to the others for further discussion. Thanks. Please let me know if they come up with good refinements of it. I've been thinking about the third party problem for a while, and that seems to be something they could usefully do. The problem, though, is getting people who live in a wide variety of districts and who'd identify with the party. Large concentrations in one area - say, the SF Bay Area - simply won't cut it. You need help from the boonies. Notice that the major party candidates tour rural areas a lot more when they're trawling for votes than when they're trawling for cash. Also, do a survey of where the majority of districts are - and thus, where the majority of Representatives, of either party, are from. From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 04:46:01 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:46:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <1317930610.20802.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1317930610.20802.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/6 john clark > The GPS unit in your car has to take General Relativity into account to > synchronize its clock with the clocks in navigation satellites, it does this > so well that you know your position within 5 to 10 feet. And this piece of > equiptment only cost a hundred dollars or so, the idea that the OPERA people > with their massive budget tried to do the same thing but were off by more > than 60 feet is very hard to believe, and the idea that despite checking and > rechecking the experiment for 10 months looking for errors some of the > smartest people on the planet forgot to consider General Relativity is even > harder to believe than that faster than light particles exist. "Expensive" does not mean "infallible", or even "reliable". Indeed, just the opposite happens quite often: where it's expensive to do anything, that argues against doing things a lot - which tends to mean that experience with the practicalities of doing those things is not gained, which - combined with the natural tunnel vision of those who analyze only those narrow subfields the equipment is intended for - leads to errors like this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at alice.it Fri Oct 7 05:51:24 2011 From: scerir at alice.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 07:51:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] More on Neutrinos In-Reply-To: References: <1317930610.20802.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0B6C044D88DB4F2EBAD5F259432D2FB6@PCserafino> BTW, there is another paper here http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.5172v1 From amon at doctrinezero.com Fri Oct 7 07:46:05 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:46:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 October 2011 04:02, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Thanks. Please let me know if they come up with good refinements of it. > I've been thinking about the third party problem for a while, and that > seems > to be something they could usefully do. > Will do! Cheers adrian. There will be a re-working of the original leaflet too, currently under the scrutiny of the DZ list - I won't bore anyone here with details of the process, but will post the proposed content here before the leaflet is mocked up, just in case anyone here would care to offer any constructive criticism. All the Best, A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Fri Oct 7 07:51:55 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:51:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <00b501cc8444$b0ae0960$120a1c20$@att.net> References: <033b01cc83aa$c2cebf30$486c3d90$@att.net> <00b501cc8444$b0ae0960$120a1c20$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/6 spike > > > Ja, but more specifically, what is it that is being promoted with Occupy? > That is what I still don?t get. **** > > ** ** > > About 15 yrs ago, there were a number of anti-capitalism rallies in San > Jose, not big ones, but they were getting attention. They had the same > problem then: down with capitalism, so up with? what? A number of us > decided to counter-protest, so we all got out there and carried Up With > Capitalism signs. It was a hoot, really a lot of fun. Several of us showed > up in our business clothes, so there we were out there in wool suit and tie, > carrying signs supporting the status quo.**** > > ** ** > > I don?t really see the Occupy folks specifically promoting anything. If > they want to imprison the top 1% and seize their wealth, suddenly there is a > new top 1%. Do they suggest seizing them too? And then what about the next > new 1%? Rinse and repeat? > In a nutshell, I agree with you. I also think this is something like a re-run of the 90s anti-Cap protests, with exactly the same flaws as you say. I doubt it's a case that no-one has attempted to concoct realistic goals or big-picture strategy, but all of the factions that comprise the movement would never agree on any single conventional ideology or principle. For any Monty Python fans, this kind of thing always reminds me of the "People's Front of Judaea" sketch from "Life of Brian". A complicating factor, I suppose, is that in the facebook age it is also much easier to get people to show up at events than to develop a philosophical or strategic framework that people engage with on any explicit level. In short, I think their hearts are in the right place, and their anger is well justified, but I agree - unless a new level of strategy and organization emerges they will achieve nothing significant. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Fri Oct 7 10:17:37 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:17:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 October 2011 08:46, Amon Zero wrote: > > There will be a re-working of the original leaflet too, currently under the > scrutiny of the DZ list - I won't bore anyone here with details of the > process, but will post the proposed content here before the leaflet is > mocked up, just in case anyone here would care to offer any constructive > criticism. > Can anyone help by throwing a comment or two my way, please? Here's my first stab at a second version of text for the leaflet. I've made a point of leaving certain things implicit, where there seems to be no obvious gain and possible liability in stating them explicitly. I'd greatly appreciate any feedback/comments you may be able to offer. I'm thinking that the leaflets would be twice the size earlier planned (i.e. A5 rather than A6), to allow a little more text and better print quality. One word of warning - it seems quite clear to me that libertarians, particularly Anarcho-Capitalists, will not like this one little bit. That is understood. Perhaps best save your blood pressure and not read it! I've tried my best to be compatible with personal freedom and notions of responsible Capitalism, but of course it's a nigh-impossible balancing act to resolve what seem to be essentially opposing points of view. ************************** We are in the early days of global economic disaster, caused by corrupt banking practices and political bribery, being symptoms of unchecked Capitalism which has become dysfunctional. We are opposed to Capitalist excesses such as debt trading, and the creation of artificial scarcity. The richest 1% of the world's population wields wildly disproportionate power and influence, while ordinary citizens suffer under circumstances not of their own making. We want a fair, healthy society. The fruits of society must benefit all, with no-one left behind. To demand this is not "left wing" or "right wing", but the simple, natural expression of honest citizens who want their future back. We want true freedom, democracy, and accountable government. We are not at all opposed to trade or personal profit in principle, but feel that trade can and should exist in a state of healthy mutual support with society, rather than the dangerous, parasitic form it exists in today. In order to achieve these aims in the face of opposition from those who profit from the current state of affairs, we must have clear goals and effective, disciplined organization. Our global, virtual community - the Zero State - is dedicated to fairness, mutual support, resource sharing, and the eventual abolition of involuntary suffering through the intelligent, compassionate use of technology. Our leaders are drawn from the active membership, and are dedicated to complete accountability and transparency in governance, including a commitment to acting as true public servants. For their own reasons, many people find personal significance in the date of Friday December 21st, 2012. We have decided to use awareness of this particular date as an ally in our efforts toward true democracy and freedom. On that day, the Zero State will form a democratic, open, global alternative government. The alternative government is intended as a People's Forum, to hear different points of view, coordinate volunteer activity, and chart a common course toward a positive future which we can all share. The Zero State does not compete with or oppose any other government, but will provide a trans-national platform for people to advocate, prepare and launch programs of activity working toward a world of shared justice and progress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Fri Oct 7 11:02:21 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:02:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 October 2011 11:17, Amon Zero wrote: > > For their own reasons, many people find personal significance in the date > of Friday December 21st, 2012. We have decided to use awareness of this > particular date as an ally in our efforts toward true democracy and freedom. > On that day, the Zero State will form a democratic, open, global alternative > government. The alternative government is intended as a People's Forum, to > hear different points of view, coordinate volunteer activity, and chart a > common course toward a positive future which we can all share. The Zero > State does not compete with or oppose any other government, but will provide > a trans-national platform for people to advocate, prepare and launch > programs of activity working toward a world of shared justice and progress. > All comments so far have focussed on one sentence in the paragraph above. Now thinking of changing it to the following: "On that day, the Zero State will create the beginnings of a democratic, open, global Alternative or parallel Government. The Alternative Government is intended as a people's forum..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Fri Oct 7 12:34:46 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:34:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 October 2011 12:02, Amon Zero wrote: > > All comments so far have focussed on one sentence in the paragraph above. > Now thinking of changing it to the following: > > "On that day, the Zero State will create the beginnings of a democratic, > open, global Alternative or parallel Government. The Alternative Government > is intended as a people's forum..." > Last post on this unless anyone has anything to add, or ask. Just before anyone rightly hauls me up on this point, it looks we'll avoid calling this thing a 'government' (too many distractions and misconceptions), and focus on it as a resource-coordination group and forum. Same goals, *much* more modest language. It seems most likely that we'll set it up in the form of a resource-coordination group and public forum. The point here (I worry that some might miss it and think that I'm trolling) is an attempt to inject transhumanist ideas into aspects of society outside the usual circles of transhumanist discourse. Politics being just one such aspect, of course. Cheers, A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 22:08:33 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 15:08:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/7 Amon Zero : > For their own reasons, many people find personal significance in the date of > Friday December 21st, 2012. We have decided to use awareness of this > particular date as an ally in our efforts toward true democracy and freedom. > On that day, the Zero State will form a democratic, open, global alternative > government. The alternative government is intended as a People's Forum, to > hear different points of view, coordinate volunteer activity, and chart a > common course toward a positive future which we can all share. Acknowledging that you mean a "forum" rather than an "alternative government" - why wait until 2012? Forums such as this can be created with much less prep work. I could see possibly starting on 12/21/2011. Put it over a year out, and people won't remember when it gets close. Besides, if you do try running some candidates, starting this December lets you try a few experiments in 2012, while it's still new enough that you can say you're trying, but even a complete defeat is okay since it shows you how to win when you try "for real" (2014, when you may have less competition). From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 7 22:28:11 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 15:28:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <033b01cc83aa$c2cebf30$486c3d90$@att.net> <00b501cc8444$b0ae0960$120a1c20$@att.net> Message-ID: <00d901cc8540$66825380$3386fa80$@att.net> On Behalf Of Amon Zero Subject: Re: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) 2011/10/6 spike Ja, but more specifically, what is it that is being promoted with Occupy? That is what I still don't get. >.In a nutshell, I agree with you. I also think this is something like a re-run of the 90s anti-Cap protests, with exactly the same flaws as you say. I doubt it's a case that no-one has attempted to concoct realistic goals or big-picture strategy, but all of the factions that comprise the movement would never agree on any single conventional ideology or principle. .- A OK so now there is a list of demands. Of course most of them are absurd, but there is one on that list which I have been pounding the drum for a long time, demand ten. We need verifiable paper ballot elections. Demands six and seven can be met using Zimbabwe dollars. Demand four can be met partially: we should offer free diplomas, kinda like what the Wizard of Oz gave the straw guy. spike http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-mo veme/ Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr. Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors. Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment. Demand four: Free college education. Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand. Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now. Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants. Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment. Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live. Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system. Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period. Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies. Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union. These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy. Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 8 04:36:09 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 21:36:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> 2011/10/7 Amon Zero : > ... Friday December 21st, 2012. . > On that day, the Zero State will form a democratic, open, global > alternative government... Ah finally, an answer to that puzzling question, what are the Occupy * people protesting and what do they want: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/10/07/some-%E2%80%98occupy-sacramento%E2 %80%99-protesters-lash-out-at-questions/ That clears it up, ja? spike From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 8 16:21:38 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 09:21:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass Message-ID: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> Have we anyone here from Spain? Or anyone who knows from bullfighting? Please, I have a legitimate question here. I have heard of this puzzling form of cultural entertainment of using these magnificent beasts as play toys, and OLE and all that. Do let us ignore for the moment the ethical questions that such a thing invites, for I am not a vegetarian, I have no moral high ground from which to take pot shots. As I understand it the matador pokes these colorful projectiles into the flesh of the bull, presumably until it is too injured to continue charging, at which time the hapless beast is put out of its excruciating misery. But what happens in the rare event that the bull kicks the matador's goddam ass? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ed_1318023888 What happens to the bull then? Please tell me they tranquilize the victor, veterinarians patch his wounds and allow the horny bastard to live the rest of his life in a peaceful pasture (the bull I mean) with a steady supply of fertile and amorous cows. If you tell me they slay the beast anyways, EVEN AFTER HE HAS WON THE GODDAM MATCH decisively indeed, then I will be disappointed with an entire nation. Spaniards? Bullfighting hipsters? How does it work please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 9 18:13:48 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man Message-ID: <1318184028.32815.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I'm sure this has been discussed before but I would like to hear what others have to say about the idea of gradually adding more and more artificial capacity?to the human brain with the idea that when the biological part fails the artificial takes takes its place - along with new physical form. The external capacity can learn to emulate the biological in portions it does not have actual access to. ? This would seem to be a closer to near term possibility than some other paths.? I would prefer the artificial capacity be largely outside the human body to allow ease of continual upgrade.? The brain interface is the most important aspect and may require implants versus external readers/writers depending on the technology. It would be nice if it could be all done externally to keep it non-medical. ? I am more interested in developing full AI myself but I would not be opposed to developing and trying external reader/writer added capacity. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 19:42:26 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:42:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 5:36 AM, spike wrote: > Ah finally, an answer to that puzzling question, what are the Occupy * > people protesting and what do they want: > > This might help to clarify the protests --- Quote: As long as we continue to avoid cleansing the system of the fraud, as long as we refuse to put the fraudsters in jail, they will continue to bleed us dry. If those in charge of administering justice, like President See No Evil Obama and his worthless AG Eric Holder, refuse to do their jobs and seek to punish the guilty, our society and our culture could spiral into chaos and mob rule. Those in the top 1% who are responsible for this fraud, either directly by running it, or indirectly by supporting it financially, must ultimately be brought to justice or society will perish. There?s no way out other than reform, or revolution, or societal collapse. Those are the choices I see. We had better take the first one, and take it now. ------------------ BillK From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 9 19:32:14 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 12:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: <1318184028.32815.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318184028.32815.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318188734.85473.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> As discussed on "The Journal Editorial Report" this weekend the central planners at the US FDA hold up medical devices sometimes for years in animal trials after they have been in human use in Europe and elsewhere - refusing to use that data.? This is a good reason to proceed with external non-medical "parallel man" additions to human capacity while the battle over reducing the footprint of central planners continues.? ? Dennis May ________________________________ From: Dennis May To: "extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org" Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 1:13 PM Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man I'm sure this has been discussed before but I would like to hear what others have to say about the idea of gradually adding more and more artificial capacity?to the human brain with the idea that when the biological part fails the artificial takes takes its place - along with new physical form. The external capacity can learn to emulate the biological in portions it does not have actual access to. This would seem to be a closer to near term possibility than some other paths.? I would prefer the artificial capacity be largely outside the human body to allow ease of continual upgrade.? The brain interface is the most important aspect and may require implants versus external readers/writers depending on the technology. It would be nice if it could be all done externally to keep it non-medical. I am more interested in developing full AI myself but I would not be opposed to developing and trying external reader/writer added capacity. Dennis May _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 9 20:01:41 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 13:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Bill K wrote: ? This might help to clarify the protests --- Quote: As long as we continue to avoid cleansing the system of the fraud, as long as we refuse to put the fraudsters in jail, they will continue to bleed us dry. If those in charge of administering justice, like President See No Evil Obama and his worthless AG Eric Holder, refuse to do their jobs and seek to punish the guilty, our society and our culture could spiral into chaos and mob rule. Those in the top 1% who are responsible for this fraud, either directly by running it, or indirectly by supporting it financially, must ultimately be brought to justice or society will perish. There?s no way out other than reform, or revolution, or societal collapse. Those are the choices I see. We had better take the first one, and take it now. ------------------ Read in the comments section and you will see that the protests are being organized and lead by Obama re-election forces - Unions and MoveOn.Org.? Many are paid protesters.? Whatever they started as -?that is where they are going - a tool Obama controls and if things turn out bad he will throw them under the bus. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 22:00:18 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 23:00:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2011/10/9 Dennis May wrote: > Read in the comments section and you will see that the protests > are being organized and lead by Obama re-election forces - > Unions and MoveOn.Org.? Many are paid protesters.? Whatever > they started as -?that is where they are going - a tool Obama controls > and if things turn out bad he will throw them under the bus. > > They can try. But I get the impression that most of the protesters have no job, no money, are surviving on food stamps and have little left to lose. Regardless of who gets elected, if the situation continues to get worse, the protests will grow until something snaps. BillK From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 9 22:03:27 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 15:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: <4E91EF2A.2020702@speakeasy.net> References: <1318184028.32815.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E91EF2A.2020702@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <1318197807.8643.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Alan Grimes wrote: ? > I'm sorry, but this idea makes entirely too much sense. > Because it is so overwhelmingly logical, and because > the concepts and ideas are both appealing and sound,... ? As long as it remains a non-medical device for enhancement it can quickly build market and pay for further development as it improves.? If some devices require medical implants an off-shore implant facility might reduce that bottleneck to development. ? I am hopeful that the process can start out non-medical to build experience and capital for further development.? Limited capabilities, low risk,?and low pricing to get into the market will allow experience to build quickly.? If you go into the subject matter with some huge design in mind without feedback?from the market [slice and dice brains to be uploaded] that means you're into the thousand year central planning method of engineering which is always?eclipsed by actual technical development and actual market driven innovations.? There will be plenty of time and money for slice, dice, and upload later.? A minor enhancement to gain market acceptance in the short term is a realistic goal. ? Dennis May ________________________________ From: Alan Grimes To: Dennis May ; ExI chat list Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] The Parallel Man Dennis May wrote: > I'm sure this has been discussed before but I would > like to hear what others have to say about the > idea of gradually adding more and more artificial > capacity to the human brain with the idea that > when the biological part fails the artificial takes > takes its place - along with new physical form. > The external capacity can learn to emulate the > biological in portions it does not have actual > access to. I'm sorry, but this idea makes entirely too much sense. Because it is so overwhelmingly logical, and because the concepts and ideas are both appealing and sound, it will never gain traction in the community. =( You see, this community is obsessed with destructive brain uploading that nothing on the sane side of sticking your head in a meat-slicer is worthy of discussion on these boards. -- I know, I've tried. When I try to propose ideas as brilliantly obvious as the one you just referred to, I get the blank stares of utter non-comprehension. Because your idea doesn't involve freezing the brain and scanning slices, it makes no sense to them. =( Anything that doesn't involve emulating neural tissues on a synaptic level must not have anything to do with transhumanism anyway. =\ I would love to collaborate with you on any of your projects. Please let me know how I can help you. Right now I'm looking for work but I hope to get a small humanoid robot soon. With it, I hope to really kick off my building AI project. =P I expect to go through several iterations of building and research before I get anywhere, but right now I'm in a building phase. =) > This would seem to be a closer to near term > possibilitythan some other paths.? I would > prefer the artificial capacity be largely outside > the human body to allow ease of continual > upgrade.? The brain interface is the most important > aspect and may require implants versus external > readers/writers depending on the technology. > It would be nice if it could be all done externally > to keep it non-medical. I don't see how implants are avoidable. I don't mind as long as I can see all the source code to the implants and it meets all of my standards of quality. -- E T F N H E D E D Powers are not rights. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 9 22:24:47 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 15:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I wrote: > Read in the comments section and you will see that the protests > are being organized and lead by Obama re-election forces - > Unions and MoveOn.Org.? Many are paid protesters.? Whatever > they started as -?that is where they are going - a tool Obama controls > and if things turn out bad he will throw them under the bus. ? Bill K wrote: > They can try. > But I get the impression that most of the protesters have no job, no > money, are surviving on food stamps and have little left to lose. > Regardless of who gets elected, if the situation continues to get > worse, the protests will grow until something snaps. The protests of the FED by libertarian groups is being swamped by unrelated professional and union protesters who are part of the Obama machine.? ? I agree that the situation will get worse and something will snap. When the crisis happpens legislation?taking many months to write will appear overnight. ? Professional protest groups will?re-exert control at some point since they can flood in as many people and as much money as it takes to mold the message for their particular view.? Most of the media will go along with it. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 22:44:49 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 23:44:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2011/10/9 Dennis May wrote: > The protests of the FED by libertarian groups is being swamped > by unrelated professional and union protesters who are part of the > Obama machine. > > I agree that the situation will get worse and something will snap. > When the crisis happpens legislation?taking many months to write will > appear overnight. > > Professional protest groups will?re-exert control at some point > since they can flood in as many people and as much money as it > takes to mold the message for their particular view.? Most of the > media will go along with it. > > It really doesn't matter what the media does or what laws appear if the underlying situation isn't fixed. Desperate people don't care. Survival is more important. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 07:50:43 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:50:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 11:44 PM, BillK wrote: > It really doesn't matter what the media does or what laws appear if > the underlying situation isn't fixed. > > >From AP news: Wall Street protesters fed up with both parties Their chief target is Wall Street, but many of the demonstrators in New York and across the U.S. also are thoroughly disgusted with Washington, blaming politicians of both major parties for policies they say protect corporate America at the expense of the middle class. "At this point I don't see any difference between George Bush and Obama. The middle class is a lot worse than when Obama was elected," said John Penley, an unemployed legal worker from Brooklyn. -------------------------- and Welcome to the #OWS 99% Movement ?We Will NOT Be Co-Opted? Preface from Washington?s Blog: Both mainstream Democratic and Republican parties are working furiously behind the scenes to co-opt the Wall Street protests. But as the Associated Press notes, the protesters are fed up with both mainstream parties, as are most of the American people. ---------------------- BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 09:06:30 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 02:06:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] India produces a $30 computer Message-ID: This computer will initially be aimed at serving the needs of university students. What do you think? And how does this bode for the future of computer access for low income people? http://www.thehimalayantimes.com/fullNews.php?headline=India+launches+cheapest+tablet+computer+&NewsID=304984 John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 10 09:44:04 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:44:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111010094404.GZ25711@leitl.org> On Sun, Oct 09, 2011 at 11:00:18PM +0100, BillK wrote: > But I get the impression that most of the protesters have no job, no > money, are surviving on food stamps and have little left to lose. > Regardless of who gets elected, if the situation continues to get > worse, the protests will grow until something snaps. There's no way to predict what's going to happen. It could disappear again, it could turn into an armed uprising, everything's possible. The handling (both on part of police and expecially on part of the criticized top 1% e.g. http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/09/wall-street-mocks-protesters-by-drinking-champagne/ ) has been the opposite of anti-escalatory. "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"? Maybe Rousseau's version of it. Bon appetit. From bbenzai at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 13:20:03 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318252803.28858.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dennis May wrote: > > I'm sure this has been discussed before but I would > like to hear what others have to say about the > idea of gradually adding more and more artificial > capacity?to the human brain with the idea that > when the biological part fails the artificial takes > takes its place - along with new physical form. > The external capacity can learn to emulate the > biological in portions it does not have actual > access to. > ? > This would seem to be a closer to near term > possibility than some other paths.? I would > prefer the artificial capacity be largely outside > the human body to allow ease of continual > upgrade.? The brain interface is the most important > aspect and may require implants versus external > readers/writers depending on the technology. > It would be nice if it could be all done externally > to keep it non-medical. You picked the very thoughts from my brain! This is my preferred uploading scenario, if it can be made a reality, and I think it would appeal to a wider set of people than the upload scenarios that put the willies up the crypto-dualists, like destructive scanning. The main benefit would be continuity, and the possibility of being in charge of your own uploading process, taking it as quickly or slowly as you like, and with the chance of correcting or reversing parts of the process. One possibility that I've noted in the past is to be able to temporarily suppress neural activity in the biological brain, to assess how well the parallel synthetic part is functioning. If all is well, the subject will notice no difference, and won't even be able to tell which strand/s of hardware their consciousness is running in. This would give people additional confidence in the whole project, and may even change some people's minds about the philosophical aspects of uploading. Crucially, it's an experiment that a sceptic could perform, with confidence that they could just disconnect and continue as normal, at any time. They could find out 'what it's like to be an upload', in a completely reversible way. Regarding the neural interfaces needed, they'd have to be extensive, and it's difficult to see how to do this without invasive procedures and overcoming a lot of difficult problems. However: An idea occurred to me a few days ago, and I'm still mulling it over, but I might as well air it here. After reading this: http://www.buffalo.edu/news/12926 ("Can Magnetism Help Us Control the Brain, Remotely?"), I had an idea. If there was a way to produce a unique 'address' for each neuron in the brain (e.g. an ion channel that would only open when a specific signal was received), you'd have a way to precisely target and fire any individual neuron, using a broadcast signal that wouldn't need to be tightly-focused. I'm wondering if there's a way to introduce a gene that's guaranteed to be unique in each cell, or creates a unique ion channel. Something that effectively gives a cell a GUID, with the ability to be fired by a specific coded signal. With nanotech, it would probably be easy, but could we do it with the techniques we have atm? I think maybe we could, with a bit of ingenuity. Maybe this could then be extended to make a neuron produce a remotely-detectable signal as well, so you could have a two-way neural interface, with no extra machinery inside the brain except some new ion channels. Speculation, yes, but it's something I've never heard suggested before, it sounds plausible and it would neatly tie in with the idea of a 'parallel man' system. Thoughts? Ben Zaiboc From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 10 14:48:46 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:48:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Spike, I have been to Span 3 times in 3 totally different areas: Bilbao, Gijon and Valencia. In each of these different regions I did not see one sign of paraphernalia of bullfighting. Thinking about it now, it does seem strange and I suppose I loved being in all these regions of Spain because I didn't see any bull fighting! IMO, it is brutal and cruel. Some are trying to outlaw it: but you can read the defense believes it to be a national sport, centuries old. The facts are horrific: http://www.stopbullfighting.org.uk/facts.htm ; however, hopefully the more awake and evolved humans will continue making their stand: Natasha Natasha Vita-More Chair, Humanity+ PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK Co-Editor, The Transhumanist Reader _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 11:22 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass Have we anyone here from Spain? Or anyone who knows from bullfighting? Please, I have a legitimate question here. I have heard of this puzzling form of cultural entertainment of using these magnificent beasts as play toys, and OLE and all that. Do let us ignore for the moment the ethical questions that such a thing invites, for I am not a vegetarian, I have no moral high ground from which to take pot shots. As I understand it the matador pokes these colorful projectiles into the flesh of the bull, presumably until it is too injured to continue charging, at which time the hapless beast is put out of its excruciating misery. But what happens in the rare event that the bull kicks the matador's goddam ass? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ed_1318023888 What happens to the bull then? Please tell me they tranquilize the victor, veterinarians patch his wounds and allow the horny bastard to live the rest of his life in a peaceful pasture (the bull I mean) with a steady supply of fertile and amorous cows. If you tell me they slay the beast anyways, EVEN AFTER HE HAS WON THE GODDAM MATCH decisively indeed, then I will be disappointed with an entire nation. Spaniards? Bullfighting hipsters? How does it work please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 10 15:37:09 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:37:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK ... >From AP news: "At this point I don't see any difference between George Bush and Obama... -------------------------- Welcome to the #OWS 99% Movement "We Will NOT Be Co-Opted" ...BillK BillK, the Occupy movement did irreparable harm to itself yesterday by demonstrating clearly that they are racists: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/10/occupy-atlanta-protesters-use-ass embly-rules-to-prevent-rep-lewis-from-speaking/ I find it interesting that the TEA party movement has been re-bleat-edly tagged as racist even after specifically demonstrating to the contrary by having minorities represented on the speakers' platform. The Occupy movement has now specifically demonstrated that they are racist by excluding a civil rights champion from addressing his own constituents. So now any time you hear the "racist TEA party" anything, you know they have conflated it with the racist Occupy movement which is a completely different group. What now remains to be seen is if the traditional racism watchdogs continue to falsely accuse the TEA party while giving Occupy a get-out-of-jail-free card. spike From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 15:56:21 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:56:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] India produces a $30 computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/10 John Grigg : > What do you think?? And how does this bode for the future of computer access > for low income people? > > > http://www.thehimalayantimes.com/fullNews.php?headline=India+launches+cheapest+tablet+computer+&NewsID=304984 This is only for India. As the article notes, transportation costs are a significant factor. Low income people elsewhere would need a sponsor, interested in their improvement, to be able to get (or, usually, even know about) this - and that's something that most low income people don't have. (If you don't have a computer, it's difficult to hop online and find out about this. And then there's the cost of having a 'Net connection.) Even within India, I worry whether it will receive too little distribution to make much of a difference. Still, it's a start. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 15:42:22 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:42:22 +0200 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 October 2011 15:11, BillK wrote: > A Wired article has reminded me that it is governments & war that > drives technological innovation. > > < http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/gadgets-the-pentagon-made/?pid=814&viewall=true > This is very close to some of the subjects I dealt with in my brief speech at the London "Beyond Human" even held during last week-end. In particular, while innovation certainly happens at the cross between cooperation and competition, past experience suggest that both the cooperation and the competition that are capable of producing breakthroughs are those amongst *political*, as opposed to economic, entities. The former need not be necessarily a State-nation, since this has not existed nor is bound to exist forever, nor it is strictly necessary that competition only takes the form of actual warfare, let alone "total war", but the point is well made by, inter alia, La recherche et la technologie, enjeux de puissance de Val?rie M?rindol, David-W Versailles et Patrice Cardot. The same cannot be said for competition between international corporate groups and conglomerates, no matter how large they are or how violent it may become. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:04:47 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:04:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:37 AM, spike wrote: > BillK, the Occupy movement did irreparable harm to itself yesterday by > demonstrating clearly that they are racists: > > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/10/occupy-atlanta-protesters-use-ass > embly-rules-to-prevent-rep-lewis-from-speaking/ I read that article, and my take on it was that they were nervous about letting Lewis speak because he is a Representative, and thus part of the establishment they are rebelling against. Unwise, sure - most successful revolutions got backing from disaffected members of the previously existing power block - but I didn't see anything in that article that suggested Lewis being black had anything to do with not being allowed to speak. From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:24:02 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:24:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: <1318252803.28858.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318252803.28858.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > This is my preferred uploading scenario, if it can be made a reality, and I think it would appeal to a wider set of people than the upload scenarios that put the willies up the crypto-dualists, like destructive scanning. Not to mention, it has a bit more historical precedent. Replacing one's brain bit by bit is a famous philosophical scenario posed quite some time ago. See "Brain replacement scenario" under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room#Brain_simulation_and_connectionist_replies:_redesigning_the_room among other sources. > Crucially, it's an experiment that a sceptic could perform, with confidence that they could just disconnect and continue as normal, at any time. ?They could find out 'what it's like to be an upload', in a completely reversible way. Not sure it's reversible. Once a biological neuron is disconnected, what happens to it? I suspect it would soon no longer be usable for its original function - not without significant reconditioning, if at all. > I had an idea. ?If there was a way to produce a unique 'address' for each neuron in the brain (e.g. an ion channel that would only open when a specific signal was received), you'd have a way to precisely target and fire any individual neuron, using a broadcast signal that wouldn't need to be tightly-focused. ?I'm wondering if there's a way to introduce a gene that's guaranteed to be unique in each cell, or creates a unique ion channel. ?Something that effectively gives a cell a GUID, with the ability to be fired by a specific coded signal. ?With nanotech, it would probably be easy, but could we do it with the techniques we have atm? ?I think maybe we could, with a bit of ingenuity. No, because at the moment, there's no way to assign an address to a neuron in a way that it would react to that address. To do this, you would need to have something that could go into the brain and physically touch each neuron - and assign a different address upon each touch. (Though, this latter part might be accomplished by having it calculate the address based on the intensity of 3 or more signals transmitted from outside the head, letting it calculate its 3 dimensional coordinates. Embryos do much the same thing, using gradients of chemical signals to tell each given cell if it's forming a head or a leg, and thus which sequence of formation events to follow.) Granted, it's not impossible to conceive of the things we'd need to do, to develop this. Certain proteins can cross the blood-brain barrier, carrying nutrients to the neurons. It's theoretically possible to modify some to add this interface. But the capability does not exist today. From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 10 16:16:48 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:16:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> Message-ID: <048a01cc8768$038d1d30$0aa75790$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes ... > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/10/occupy-atlanta-protesters-use-ass embly-rules-to-prevent-rep-lewis-from-speaking/ >...I read that article, and my take on it was that they were nervous about letting Lewis speak because he is a Representative, and thus part of the establishment they are rebelling against. Unwise, sure - most successful revolutions got backing from disaffected members of the previously existing power block - but I didn't see anything in that article that suggested Lewis being black had anything to do with not being allowed to speak... Sure agreed, but imagine this had been a tea party rally and the same thing had occurred. Would the tea party get a free pass just because they didn't have anything specifically racist about excluding Lewis? Will the racist Occupy movement be given a free pass? The double standard here will be as much a stark contrast as day and night. spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:47:22 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:47:22 +0200 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 October 2011 16:51, Tara Maya wrote: > However, the paradox is that for the past five hundred years (probably > more) wars have always been won by the combatant with the strongest economy, > and usually that has meant the freest economy. Liberal England vs > centralized Napoleonic France, the capitalist democratic Allies vs. the > National Socialists, etc. > Well, this is quite debatable. WWII was mainly fought and won by the Soviet Union (Poland, France and England had not performed so well in spite of the enormous colonial empires of the latter and of their "capitalistic" economies in its first phase), and in wartime very little of normal constitutional and/or market mechanisms were in place on either side. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 17:40:18 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:40:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <048a01cc8768$038d1d30$0aa75790$@att.net> References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> <048a01cc8768$038d1d30$0aa75790$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:16 AM, spike wrote: > Sure agreed, but imagine this had been a tea party rally and the same thing > had occurred. ?Would the tea party get a free pass just because they didn't > have anything specifically racist about excluding Lewis? Not applicable. The tea party works with some who are in Congress - having gotten quite a few of its own candidates elected. Besides, check the photo in the article. There were quite a few other black people there - and some of them may have been voting against Lewis. From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 10 19:22:04 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:22:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> Message-ID: <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of Natasha Vita-More Subject: Re: [ExI] bull whoops ass Hi Spike, >. I loved being in all these regions of Spain because I didn't see any bull fighting! IMO, it is brutal and cruel. Some are trying to outlaw it: but you can read the defense believes it to be a national sport, centuries old. The facts are horrific: http://www.stopbullfighting.org.uk/facts.htm ; however, hopefully the more awake and evolved humans will continue making their stand: Natasha Hi Natasha, thanks for the links. This whole thing has been simmering in my mind all weekend and putting me in a foul mood, so do allow me this one rant, and I will let it go, or try to. We are all allowed an occasional righteous rant here occasionally, if we don't abuse the privilege, and this is mine. I have long known of bullfighting, and try to not think about this practice which I find most distasteful, for I have no moral high ground. Not only do I occasionally eat beef, I eat shrimp at every opportunity. One bull can feed an army of proles, but an army of shrimp must be slain to provide a most tasty sushi-meal for a single prole. Furthermore, the bull is a farm animal one would suppose, but most shrimp are taken from the wild. So this isn't a moral argument exactly, although I may redouble my efforts to give up shrimp and cut down even further on beef. That being said, the thrust of my argument is simply fair play. I cannot find the answer to what happens to the bull in the rare event that he wins the match. After I saw the video, I seriously thought of creating and distributing an internet cartoon, a snorting bull with spears in his back and one bloody horn, with the caption: Care for el rematch-o, Senor One-eye? I didn't do it, for that would be cruel humor, and cruelty is el matador's department, not mine. Regarding the notion that bullfighting is centuries old and is cultural, do let us ignore the stunningly illogical reasoning process that leads to the notion that somehow that makes it all OK. Ummmm, well, never mind, let us not ignore that. Saying anything old and cultural is OK is just bullshit and I don't like it. Cultures evolve. To resist cultural evolution opens the door for all manner of egregious and distasteful mischief and misanthropy, or in this case, misbeastopy. So here is what I suggest. We don't even need to pressure the bullfighting culture to outlaw the practice, for that goes against my inner libertarian. I consider it perfectly legitimate to pressure the Spanish government to impose from the outside a sense of fair play, in this way. Make it a requirement that in the rare event that the bull wins, that bull must be allowed to live, never to fight again. A third party is given an option to buy the beast and supply the veterinarian to patch his wounds. Volunteers would donate the money (I would gladly contribute to that fund.) That bull is declared a champion forever. Never again does he enter the arena. They patch him up, allow him to live his life breeding with the heifers sired by other champion bulls. That way, every bull from that particular pasture has a father and moo-ternal grandfather which managed to draw blood from el matador, or better yet to plunge an enraged horn up his el asso, or cause him to retreat in terror from the ring in any fashion with the bull still standing and snorting. Over time, better and better El Toros would evolve. Future matadors beware. OLE! We set some kind of time limit, after which the match is called a draw, and the bull lives to fight another day, or is up for option to buy for Operation Bull-fighter Fighters (OBFF.) No sawed-off horns. Sharpened horns, bueno, muy bien. Take all of the other participants out of the arena. El Toro already has odds stacked against him sufficiently, he shouldn't be distracted by half a dozen other proles hanging around in the arena, there to protect El Matador. If the bullfighter is so eager to demonstrate his courage, this is an even more impressive opporutnity. Go right ahead, Mister Testosterone, let's see you go in there alone, you big strong brave hombre. If the bull manages to rip away half the matador's face as happened last week, and the matador is down with the bull still standing, the spectators allowed to gasp in horror and pray to their favorite deity, or if they are atheist bull fans, to simply comment OLE. If El Toro manages to injure in any way, or draw any blood from El Matador, or even frighten the silly hombre into fleeing the arena, the bull is declared winner and champion. The losing matador is retired permanently. There is no appeal. In the case of ambiguous injury, a panel of judges makes the call. This would be an example of a unanimous decision in favor of the bull: OLE! Apologies for entering this into the ExI archives, but it helps get this burden off my chest. Both participants of any murderous spectacle deserve a souvenir or memento. The newly retired matador gets his swords back, but the bull gets to keep the hat, along with any body parts the matador leaves in the arena, such as the eyeball from last week. The defeated matador gets a digital recording of the terrified gasps and cries of the spectators as he was getting ass whooped by a rightfully enraged hunk of beef. Most bulls go to the slaughterhouse, where their chances of survival are exactly zero. In the arena, the bull's odds of victory are between slim and grim out on the rim, but at least it is SOME chance. This is loosely analogous to cryonics, ja? The slaughterhouse is then analogous to traditional burial. But if they slay the victorious bull anyway, in what way is there ANY justice, or ANY justification in that sport? They give the bull a really bad afternoon which he never requested, with nothing in return. If they arrange for the tragically-infrequently victorious bull live out his life in peace and copious love, well then I would say the arena is actually preferable to the slaughterhouse, as cryonics is preferable to the grave. Spaniards, go right ahead with your offensive cultural spectacle, but do impose some fair play on the egregious practice. The rest of the world is watching and listening. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8971 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 10 19:33:47 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:33:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> <048a01cc8768$038d1d30$0aa75790$@att.net> Message-ID: <050701cc8783$881980a0$984c81e0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:16 AM, spike wrote: >> Sure agreed, but imagine this had been a tea party rally and the same thing had occurred. ?Would the tea party get a free pass just because >> they didn't have anything specifically racist about excluding Lewis? >... check the photo in the article. There were quite a few other black people there - and some of them may have been voting against Lewis. Minorities in the audience, no score. They need minorities in leadership positions, as the Tea Party has. Have you noticed Herman Cain's meteoric rise? >From all appearances, the Occupy movement is racist and the Tea Party is not. spike From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 19:42:32 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:42:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/10 spike > I cannot find the answer to what happens to the bull in the rare event that > he wins the match. > Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistants come in to finish the job. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 19:58:02 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 20:58:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: <050701cc8783$881980a0$984c81e0$@att.net> References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> <048a01cc8768$038d1d30$0aa75790$@att.net> <050701cc8783$881980a0$984c81e0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:33 PM, spike wrote: > Minorities in the audience, no score. ?They need minorities in leadership > positions, as the Tea Party has. ?Have you noticed Herman Cain's meteoric > rise? > > From all appearances, the Occupy movement is racist and the Tea Party is > not. > > Spike, I think you are confusing the Occupy uprising with an old school political party. The 99rs don't have leaders, spokesmen or a 'Ten Commandments'. Every assembly will be different. I don't think your example was racist. (Is everyone who walks out on an Obama speech racist?) But even if it was, the meeting in the next city would have different organisers and different standards. BillK From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 10 19:56:00 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:56:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> Message-ID: <051b01cc8786$a2b43bf0$e81cb3d0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:43 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] bull whoops ass 2011/10/10 spike >>I cannot find the answer to what happens to the bull in the rare event that he wins the match. >Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistants come in to finish the job. Ay carumba oy vey, I was afraid of that. This makes me ashamed to be human. The transhuman condition cannot come soon enough. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 10 20:38:58 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:38:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111010163858.8lt06r3yvesccg0w@webmail.natasha.cc> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081009004135AAaHwS8[1] Links: ------ [1] http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081009004135AAaHwS8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 21:40:20 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318282820.76733.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Ben Zaiboc > wrote: > > This is my preferred uploading scenario, if it can be > made a reality, and I think it would appeal to a wider set > of people than the upload scenarios that put the willies up > the crypto-dualists, like destructive scanning. > > Not to mention, it has a bit more historical > precedent.? Replacing > one's brain bit > by bit is a famous philosophical scenario posed quite some > time ago.? > > > Crucially, it's an experiment that a sceptic could > perform, with confidence that they could just disconnect and > continue as normal, at any time. ?They could find out 'what > it's like to be an upload', in a completely reversible way. > > Not sure it's reversible.? Once a biological neuron is > disconnected, > what happens to it? This proposal isn't the same as Moravec's replacement scenario, and there is no disconnection of neurons. The idea is to create a simultaneous and parallel information-processing system that 'shadows' what the bio brain is doing, adjusting itself and learning until it can do this shadowing perfectly. The reversability of the process lies in the fact that there is no hardware in the brain itself at all (beyond the ion channels or whatever), and no damage is done to the neurons, no disconnection, no removal, nothing like that. The 'shutting off' of parts of the bio brain would be via local anaesthesia, transcranial magnetic or electrical stimulation (or should that be depression?), or something similar. Something that soon wears off, leaving the bit of brain none the worse. And it would only be used to test if the subjective experience of running in bio or in silico was indistinguishable, and if not, to investigate why not. Who knows, it might even demonstrate that uploading is actually not possible! Not that I'd put money on that, of course. Even after the subject was happy that the process was complete, there would be no need to do anything to the bio brain (unless you wanted to), and you could happily go for decades with a 'twin-brain', the bio and synthetic parts in perfect harmony. I'd expect that anyone with this would want to go further, though, and start extending the synthetic part way beyond what a purely bio brain could be capable of, and eventually the whole system would be so much bigger than just the bio component that it would be desirable to ditch it, and go fully synthetic (body as well as brain). That's when you can start cooking with gas! Crank the clock speed up, or whatever the equivalent would be, for a start. I liked the idea of using 3 separate chemical gradients for obtaining a neuron GUID, that's a good one. I'm also thinking along the lines of the way NMR works, for outputting neuron activity. Something that can be detected by an external scanning mechanism, rotating through all the ID channels, that is activated only when the neuron fires. Crikey, it would have to be fast! 300 billion neurons, isn't it? spike time of a couple of milliseconds? So.. teraherz region. Okaaaay, maybe another idea... Ben Zaiboc From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 10 23:02:43 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:02:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The twists & turns of politics & idealism (was: The End of the Future) In-Reply-To: References: <017d01cc8573$cda026e0$68e074a0$@att.net> <1318190501.51373.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318199087.23735.YahooMailNeo@web112110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <046801cc8762$7996ea20$6cc4be60$@att.net> <048a01cc8768$038d1d30$0aa75790$@at t.net> <050701cc8783$881980a0$984c81e0$@att.net> Message-ID: <057c01cc87a0$b83a7e20$28af7a60$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK >... >> From all appearances, the Occupy movement is racist and the Tea Party is not. >...Spike, I think you are confusing the Occupy uprising with an old school political party...I don't think your example was racist... Actually I don't either. However: >... Is everyone who walks out on an Obama speech racist? BillK JA! That's my point, whether they were racist or not, they were accused of it. They resented the hell out of it. Well, now the shoe is on the other foot. Those who were accused of racism (and still are occasionally) for disapproving of Obama's policies are now in a position to use that club themselves. They will not hesitate a minute, not for a second, to bludgeon their opponents with it, early and often, beyond recognition. That Georgia incident with John Lewis will be the high water mark for OWS. It's dead, Jim. The video is on YouTube forever now, with their silly Repeat After Me, with the *crowd* *voting* to disallow a civil rights champion from speaking. Also on YouTube forever are recordings of Tea Party rallies with minorities on the platform speaking. I know, for I was there. So we have solid permanent evidence that the Occupiers are racist and the Tea Party is not, even though pretty much everyone knows neither are motivated by race. Perceptions count. That Georgia rally was a really serious stumble for the Occupiers. That factor alone could end up getting Herman Cain elected president. He's a solid fiscal conservative and Tea Party favorite. Now anyone who opposes him, even on ideological grounds, even if he is the VP nominee, will immediately be labeled racist. This they will not like, any more than the victims of that technique did three years ago. What goes around comes around, with a vengeance. spike From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 04:52:38 2011 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: <051b01cc8786$a2b43bf0$e81cb3d0$@att.net> References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> <051b01cc8786$a2b43bf0$e81cb3d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1318308758.20237.YahooMailNeo@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> >From:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes >Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:43 PM >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] bull whoops ass >? >2011/10/10 spike >>>I cannot find the answer to what happens to the bull in the rare event that he wins the match. > >>Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistantscome in to finish the job. >? >? >Ay carumba oy vey, I was afraid of that.? This makes me ashamed to be human.? The transhuman condition cannot come soon enough. >? >spike Actually according to Wikipedia with regards to Spain specifically: ? "Very rarely, if the public or the matador believe that the bull has fought extremely bravely, they may petition the president of the event to grant the bull a pardon (indulto) and if granted the bull's life is spared and it is allowed to leave the ring alive and return to the ranch where it came from. Then the bull becomes a stud bull for the rest of its life." ? ? Stuart LaForge "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things bought and sold are legislators." - P. J. O'Rourke From eugen at leitl.org Tue Oct 11 08:19:35 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:19:35 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: <1318282820.76733.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318282820.76733.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111011081935.GG25711@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 02:40:20PM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > This proposal isn't the same as Moravec's replacement scenario, and there is no disconnection of neurons. > > The idea is to create a simultaneous and parallel information-processing system that 'shadows' what the bio brain is doing, This is a classical in vivo incremental uploading scenario. Notice that the hardware will have considerable bulk and power footprint, and will utilize numerical methods we do not yet have. > adjusting itself and learning until it can do this shadowing perfectly. > The reversability of the process lies in the fact that there is no hardware > in the brain itself at all (beyond the ion channels or whatever), and no > damage is done to the neurons, no disconnection, no removal, nothing like that. Sorry, this is bogus. Instead of active grid probe spaced every micron apart or less and in-situ online processing you're suddenly dealing with an unphysical load of I/O. I/O is OPS/s, it takes J/s, and the infrastructure for it is both bulky and invasive. > The 'shutting off' of parts of the bio brain would be via local anaesthesia, > transcranial magnetic or electrical stimulation (or should that be depression?), > or something similar. Something that soon wears off, leaving the bit of brain > none the worse. And it would only be used to test if the subjective experience > of running in bio or in silico was indistinguishable, and if not, to investigate > why not. Who knows, it might even demonstrate that uploading is actually not > possible! Not that I'd put money on that, of course. Why do you bother with substituting small areas incrementally? You realize you can't switch them back on without diverging, and of course your infrastructure has to speak a lot more than just electronese. How good is your protonese? Neurotransmittese? If you want to switch over to shadow infrastructure you do it instantly, and shut down biology instantly to prevent two minds briefly co-existing, and having a chance to diverge. > Even after the subject was happy that the process was complete, there would be no need to do anything to the bio brain (unless you wanted to), and you could happily go for decades with a 'twin-brain', the bio and synthetic parts in perfect harmony. I'd expect that anyone with this would want to go further, though, and start extending the synthetic part way beyond what a purely bio brain could be capable of, and eventually the whole system would be so much bigger than just the bio component that it would be desirable to ditch it, and go fully synthetic (body as well as brain). That's when you can start cooking with gas! Crank the clock speed up, or whatever the equivalent would be, for a start. Meanwhile, people are dying, and turn to carbon dioxide. Unnecessarily so. A classical case of misplaced priorities. > I liked the idea of using 3 separate chemical gradients for obtaining a neuron GUID, that's a good one. I'm also thinking along the lines of the way NMR works, for outputting neuron activity. Something that can be detected by an external scanning mechanism, rotating through all the ID channels, that is activated only when the neuron fires. Neurons are not the objects you're looking at. > Crikey, it would have to be fast! 300 billion neurons, isn't it? spike time of a couple of milliseconds? So.. teraherz region. Okaaaay, maybe another idea... Don't spend too much time on this. It's not going to work. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From test at ssec.wisc.edu Tue Oct 11 11:16:08 2011 From: test at ssec.wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 06:16:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Interesting new economics paper Message-ID: http://newamerica.net/publications/policy/the_way_forward Full paper: http://growth.newamerica.net/sites/newamerica.net/files/policydocs/NAF-The_Way_Forward-Alpert_Hockett_Roubini_0.pdf From kryonica at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 19:52:46 2011 From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 20:52:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> Message-ID: <2C6E3F08-9F42-4576-B48F-F066E8818D89@gmail.com> The job of the bull or of the matador? :-))) On 10 Oct 2011, at 20:42, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistants > come in to finish the job. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 14:04:22 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318341862.82264.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Eugen Leitl wrote: > This is a classical in vivo incremental uploading > scenario. Hmm. > Notice that the hardware will have considerable bulk and > power > footprint, and will utilize numerical methods we do not > yet > have. OK, possibly. > Sorry, this is bogus. Instead of active grid probe spaced > every micron > apart or less and in-situ online processing you're suddenly > dealing > with an unphysical load of I/O. I/O is OPS/s, it takes J/s, > and the > infrastructure for it is both bulky and invasive. I'm not sure if I'm just not expressing the idea very well, or if I don't actually understand what the idea is in the first place! Forget the 'shutting off' idea, that just muddies things. I am admittedly assuming that it's neural spikes that are important, and disregarding things like chemical gradients. Maybe that's naive, maybe not. It's still a worthwhile experiment, I think, even if it just established that the assumption is wrong. At the risk of people rolling their eyes and saying "Yes, we *know* what you mean, Ben, but it still won't work!": Imagine each neuron has a molecule (or molecular assembly, trans-membrane protein, whatever), that changes state when the neuron depolarises, in a way that is detectable to an external scanner (so this is a passive signal, no energy is needed for transmission), and in a way that uniquely identifies the neuron. A model of neuron firings could then be built up in an external system that is very accurate, and could be said to be a passive copy of the functioning of the brain. Also imagine a second mechanism, maybe an ion channel, that can reliably depolarise the cell when it's activated. This also knows which cell it's in, and only activates in response to a specific coded signal from outside the brain (oscillating magnetic field or whatever). So, would these combined mechanisms constitute a practical two-way neural interface? (forget mind emulation, etc., just concentrate on the idea of an interface). I understand that the external equipment would be bulky, and it might not be practical except in a purpose-built room, with the subject immobile in a special apparatus, etc. Or, would just one of them work? Even a one-way interface would be well worth the trouble. > > Meanwhile, people are dying, and turn to carbon dioxide. > Unnecessarily so. > A classical case of misplaced priorities. Sorry, you've lost me altogether here. > Neurons are not the objects you're looking at. Is this a Jedi mind-trick? Not sure what you mean. I shouldn't be looking at neurons? This technique won't be looking at them? > Don't spend too much time on this. It's not going to work. Well, it's my time to spend. I want to at least understand /why/ it's not going to work, if it's not. And maybe thereby get an idea of what might work. Ben Zaiboc From eugen at leitl.org Tue Oct 11 16:03:53 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:03:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: <1318341862.82264.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318341862.82264.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111011160353.GW25711@leitl.org> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 07:04:22AM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > This is a classical in vivo incremental uploading > > scenario. > > Hmm. > > > Notice that the hardware will have considerable bulk and > > power > > footprint, and will utilize numerical methods we do not > > yet > > have. > > OK, possibly. If you're using one probe for each cubic micron (arguably, not enough by far) you'll need 10^15 of those. Notice that these are active probes, with local communication and computation for crosscorrelation measurements. You'll be processing at least 10^18 data points per second. Your raw data uplink (=out of your noggin to an external piece of hardware) rate is exasample/s, uncompressed. You're looking at I/O rate of at least PByte/s, processed. Unless you want to do it all in situ, which is what you probably don't want to do -- you've already more than doubled your brain volume, after all, and look roughly like http://hydrocephalusfoundation.org/wp-content/gallery/hydrocephalus-babies/hydrocephalus%20kid%2015.jpg And that is the *easy* way of doing it, not the hard way like you're suggesting. > > > Sorry, this is bogus. Instead of active grid probe spaced > > every micron > > apart or less and in-situ online processing you're suddenly > > dealing > > with an unphysical load of I/O. I/O is OPS/s, it takes J/s, > > and the > > infrastructure for it is both bulky and invasive. > > I'm not sure if I'm just not expressing the idea very well, or if I don't actually understand what the idea is in the first place! > > Forget the 'shutting off' idea, that just muddies things. You're building a shadow infrastructure in situ, building a computational model capable of tracking (and short-term forecasting) of relevant dynamics of underlying wetware. Once you're done, you shut down your primary (to avoid diverging), and live happily ever after. > I am admittedly assuming that it's neural spikes that are important, and disregarding things like chemical gradients. Maybe that's naive, maybe not. It's still a worthwhile experiment, I think, even if it just established that the assumption is wrong. That particular rabbit hole goes damn deep, the longer you look into it. > > At the risk of people rolling their eyes and saying "Yes, we *know* what you mean, Ben, but it still won't work!": > > Imagine each neuron has a molecule (or molecular assembly, trans-membrane protein, whatever), that changes state when the neuron depolarises, in a way that is detectable to an external scanner (so this is a passive signal, no energy is needed for transmission), and in a way that uniquely identifies the neuron. A model of neuron firings could then be built up in an external system that is very accurate, and could be said to be a passive copy of the functioning of the brain. Yes, this is what we're talking about. You span the coordinate system by smart probe spacing. > Also imagine a second mechanism, maybe an ion channel, that can reliably depolarise the cell when it's activated. This also knows which cell it's in, and only activates in response to a specific coded signal from outside the brain (oscillating magnetic field or whatever). I recommend you look into how MRI works. Then compare the numbers with those estimates I posted above. As NMR voxel size and gradient rate formation is rate-limiting, you're unfortunately SOL. > So, would these combined mechanisms constitute a practical two-way neural interface? (forget mind emulation, etc., just concentrate on the idea of an interface). I understand that the external equipment would be bulky, and it might not be practical except in a purpose-built room, with the subject immobile in a special apparatus, etc. Interface is one thing, uploading is another thing entirely. You'll do fine with brain surface pickups if all you want to do is I/O. > Or, would just one of them work? Even a one-way interface would be well worth the trouble. > > > > > Meanwhile, people are dying, and turn to carbon dioxide. > > Unnecessarily so. > > A classical case of misplaced priorities. > > Sorry, you've lost me altogether here. Many die, few are cryopreserved. All the thinking you're doing now won't save you from becoming carbon dioxide. It would seem such an awful waste of human life. > > > Neurons are not the objects you're looking at. > > Is this a Jedi mind-trick? Not sure what you mean. I shouldn't be looking at neurons? This technique won't be looking at them? You should be looking at tiny parts of neurons. The unit of computing is more a synapse with an associated piece of the dendrite tree. > > > Don't spend too much time on this. It's not going to work. > > Well, it's my time to spend. I want to at least understand /why/ it's not going to work, if it's not. And maybe thereby get an idea of what might work. Ask your actuarial table when you're going to die, then think whether above will help you. I'm fairly sure it won't. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 11 16:03:38 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:03:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: <2C6E3F08-9F42-4576-B48F-F066E8818D89@gmail.com> References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> <2C6E3F08-9F42-4576-B48F-F066E8818D89@gmail.com> Message-ID: <067a01cc882f$5784e770$068eb650$@att.net> On 10 Oct 2011, at 20:42, Adrian Tymes wrote: Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistants come in to finish the job. Ah, assistants. Well if the matador gets to have assistants, then the bull should get assistants, matched one for one. Have that ring with half a dozen humans and half a dozen bulls. They say bullfighting brings tourists, well do let me assure you, fill that arena with humans and bulls, watch the tourists pour in. Think of the commercial value from TV, the three leading reality programs alone: Spain's Stupidest Home Videos, El Jackasso, and Owww, Ay Carumba. Oy vey, I need to leave this topic now, it's making me crazy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:52:24 2011 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:52:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] War drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome to the list, Tara. Please stay around. Please post more. Particularly when threads like this summon up the usual ideological blather. I do not have the patience -- nor the time to take from more constructive pursuits -- to push back against (ie vainly attempt to re-educate) those drowning in ancient/modern tribalist hoohah. Your post -- and Stefano's -- manifest Occam-approved elegance in their parsing of reality. One sentence(plus a fragment) is all it takes: "...governments exist primarily for two purposes: to enable one small group of people to exploit a larger group of people and to enable that same small group of people to protect that same larger group of people from being exploited or destroyed in a presumably even more awful way by some other small group of people. An extortion racket...." Excise from the above, "... or destroyed in a presumably more awful way..." and you approach perfection. " destroyed" is hysterical fear-mongering, and bullsh*t, but nevertheless possibly the single most effective method of political manipulation. "They're comin' to get you. They're gonna kill you after they rape your women in front of you." "Wipe you off the map! Drive you into the sea!" "...presumably..." Yeah, right,... if you're weak-minded and ignorant of history. Conquerors, with rare exceptions , conquer for the profit in it. They "destroy" neither the sheeple nor any sheeple herder willing to cooperate. War as a business model, is the cancer on Capitalism. Anyway, thank you Tara, I've got your back. Best, Jeff Davis ... those of us who are heartbroken from never-ending grief caused by never-ending death caused by never-ending war are sick of... never-ending lies. Missy Comely Beattie Your On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > You've put your finger on an interesting paradox. As a good Hobbesian, I believe that governments exist primarily for two purposes: to enable one small group of people to exploit a larger group of people and to enable that same small group of people to protect that same larger group of people from being exploited or destroyed in a presumably even more awful way by some other small group of people. An extortion racket, in other words, but not dispensable, since the threat of destruction without a government is very real. > > However, the paradox is that for the past five hundred years (probably more) wars have always been won by the combatant with the strongest economy, and usually that has meant the freest economy. Liberal England vs centralized Napoleonic France, the capitalist democratic Allies vs. the National Socialists, etc. The technological and financial inventions that made the more liberal governments stronger did NOT come from the government, but in time of war, WERE put to good use by the government. > > Tara Maya > > > On Oct 6, 2011, at 6:11 AM, BillK wrote: > >> A Wired article has reminded me that it is governments & war that >> drives technological innovation. >> >> >> >> Gadgets the Pentagon Made ? From the Microwave to the New iPhone >> ? ?* By Spencer Ackerman and Noah Shachtman ? ?October 6, 2011 >> ------------------- >> >> When you add in the huge wave of technology that came out of WWII, it >> is really obvious. >> >> Sure, inventions are made by genius individuals, but they sre usually >> working for the government, or for organisations funded by government >> money. >> 'Markets' are just hobbyists tinkering at the edges in comparison, >> selling stuff the government invented for them. >> >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From giulio at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:49:36 2011 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:49:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> <2C6E3F08-9F42-4576-B48F-F066E8818D89@gmail.com> <067a01cc882f$5784e770$068eb650$@att.net> Message-ID: Btw I have lived in Spain 15 years. Bullfighting is an important part of the local culture, but I guess it will go. In Barcelona they have recently outlawed it. Torturing animals for fun is outrageous imo -- Giulio Prisco giulio at gmail.com (1)7177giulio On Oct 11, 2011 2:44 PM, "Giulio Prisco" wrote: > Tourist goes to restaurant in Spain. Asks for something typical. Gets two > huge meatballs. Very tasty. Asks waiter what it was. Waiter answers, bull's > testicles, very popular in bullfight season. > > Tourist goes back many times to get the same. > > Last day tourist asks for the usual. Gets two small meatballs. Taste > horrible. Asks waiter what happened. Waiter answers, you see sir, the > matador does not always win! > > -- > Giulio Prisco > giulio at gmail.com > (1)7177giulio > On Oct 11, 2011 12:17 PM, "spike" wrote: > >> On 10 Oct 2011, at 20:42, Adrian Tymes wrote:**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistants >> come in to finish the job.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> Ah, assistants. Well if the matador gets to have assistants, then the >> bull should get assistants, matched one for one. Have that ring with half a >> dozen humans and half a dozen bulls. They say bullfighting brings tourists, >> well do let me assure you, fill that arena with humans and bulls, watch the >> tourists pour in. Think of the commercial value from TV, the three leading >> reality programs alone: Spain?s Stupidest Home Videos, El Jackasso, and >> Owww, Ay Carumba.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Oy vey, I need to leave this topic now, it?s making me crazy.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> spike**** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:44:35 2011 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:44:35 +0200 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: <067a01cc882f$5784e770$068eb650$@att.net> References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> <2C6E3F08-9F42-4576-B48F-F066E8818D89@gmail.com> <067a01cc882f$5784e770$068eb650$@att.net> Message-ID: Tourist goes to restaurant in Spain. Asks for something typical. Gets two huge meatballs. Very tasty. Asks waiter what it was. Waiter answers, bull's testicles, very popular in bullfight season. Tourist goes back many times to get the same. Last day tourist asks for the usual. Gets two small meatballs. Taste horrible. Asks waiter what happened. Waiter answers, you see sir, the matador does not always win! -- Giulio Prisco giulio at gmail.com (1)7177giulio On Oct 11, 2011 12:17 PM, "spike" wrote: > On 10 Oct 2011, at 20:42, Adrian Tymes wrote:**** > > ** ** > > Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistants > come in to finish the job.**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Ah, assistants. Well if the matador gets to have assistants, then the bull > should get assistants, matched one for one. Have that ring with half a > dozen humans and half a dozen bulls. They say bullfighting brings tourists, > well do let me assure you, fill that arena with humans and bulls, watch the > tourists pour in. Think of the commercial value from TV, the three leading > reality programs alone: Spain?s Stupidest Home Videos, El Jackasso, and > Owww, Ay Carumba.**** > > ** ** > > Oy vey, I need to leave this topic now, it?s making me crazy.**** > > ** ** > > spike**** > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 11 21:01:51 2011 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:01:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Avon, that well-known cosmetics company, has called their new line "Avon Anew Genics"....clearly no-one thought carefully about calling their product an...eugenics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpT3-AIoR4&feature=share I'm impressed by the pseudoscience on display, if a "youth gene" in skin cells had been discovered and a method of undoing ageing in skin cells was safe and effective, it would be a Nobel prize-worthy discovery. Tom From amon at doctrinezero.com Wed Oct 12 07:51:40 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:51:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11 October 2011 22:01, Tom Nowell wrote: > Avon, that well-known cosmetics company, has called their new line "Avon > Anew Genics"....clearly no-one thought carefully about calling their product > an...eugenics. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpT3-AIoR4&feature=share > > I'm impressed by the pseudoscience on display, if a "youth gene" in skin > cells had been discovered and a method of undoing ageing in skin cells was > safe and effective, it would be a Nobel prize-worthy discovery. Yes, I had the same thoughts when I saw the advert last night. I couldn't decide whether it was more likely that the product name was an accident (being a conjunction between specific product and line names) or if they'd decided that it pressed helpful associative buttons. The latter conclusion seems more surprising in some ways of course (and here we were, worried about being called neo-eugenicists!), but to my mind it would be even more surprising if Avon rolled out a product with such fanfare without properly thinking about the connotations. I'll wager that they tested the name on focus groups, and the focus groups either didn't know or care about any association with eugenics, or what eugenics is. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 12 15:06:44 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:06:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <078e01cc88f0$8eb8dc30$ac2a9490$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amon Zero >.Avon, that well-known cosmetics company, has called their new line "Avon Anew Genics"....clearly no-one thought carefully about calling their product an...eugenics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpT3-AIoR4 &feature=share >From the ad, apparently Anew Genics only works on women. What if this product really does make one's skin look ten years younger, and I put it on my son. Would he then look like an embryo? >. if a "youth gene" in skin cells had been discovered and a method of undoing ageing in skin cells was safe and effective, it would be a Nobel prize-worthy discovery. Understatement. If anyone actually did what this ad claims, they would amass a fortune greater than any in history, dwarfing the combined fortunes of Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:30:54 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:30:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: <078e01cc88f0$8eb8dc30$ac2a9490$@att.net> References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <078e01cc88f0$8eb8dc30$ac2a9490$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/12 spike wrote: > Understatement.? If anyone actually did what this ad claims, they would > amass a fortune greater than any in history, dwarfing the combined fortunes > of Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. > > The cosmetic industry already amasses a very tidy fortune relying only on publicity, wishful thinking and the placebo effect. Why bother with real science? BillK From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 12 19:00:41 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:00:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] fun video for flight controls engineers Message-ID: <07c901cc8911$3d643b10$b82cb130$@att.net> Is this cool or what? http://www.dogwork.com/owfo8/ How does a bird figure out how to do this? And get it exactly right on the first try? Or at least very close on the first try. Flight is unforgiving. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 12 20:08:52 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:08:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy Message-ID: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> OK, score one for the stem cell guys! http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/the_skin_gun {8-] I need one of these to go up my nose and spray my brain. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:29:06 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:29:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy In-Reply-To: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> References: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> Message-ID: A love the scene from "Family Guy" where Peter, all messed up from a stroke, goes into a stem cell clinic, and upon coming out a few minutes later in perfect shape says, "hey, why aren't we funding this???" LOL John 2011/10/12 spike > OK, score one for the stem cell guys!**** > > ** ** > > http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/the_skin_gun**** > > ** ** > > {8-]**** > > ** ** > > I need one of these to go up my nose and spray my brain.**** > > ** ** > > spike**** > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:56:39 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:56:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ancient human ancestor had sixth sense Message-ID: Damien, what do you think?? http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/10/11/Ancient-human-ancestor-had-sixth-sense/UPI-86011318383392/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:53:25 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:53:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox solved... ; ) Message-ID: The Fermi Paradox solve.... http://xkcd.com/962/ John ; ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 21:00:38 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:00:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hibernation on demand Message-ID: I wonder if this technique, or something similar, will ever be used by NASA? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7588904/ John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 21:14:06 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:14:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> <2C6E3F08-9F42-4576-B48F-F066E8818D89@gmail.com> <067a01cc882f$5784e770$068eb650$@att.net> Message-ID: Perhaps one day Spain can have robot bulls, with the exact outward appearance of a real bull, that are programmed to behave like the flesh and blood animal, even to the point of potentially injuring a matador. But they would have built-in vulnerabilities the human opponent would be aiming to strike. John 2011/10/11 Giulio Prisco > Btw I have lived in Spain 15 years. Bullfighting is an important part of > the local culture, but I guess it will go. In Barcelona they have recently > outlawed it. Torturing animals for fun is outrageous imo > > -- > Giulio Prisco > giulio at gmail.com > (1)7177giulio > On Oct 11, 2011 2:44 PM, "Giulio Prisco" wrote: > >> Tourist goes to restaurant in Spain. Asks for something typical. Gets two >> huge meatballs. Very tasty. Asks waiter what it was. Waiter answers, bull's >> testicles, very popular in bullfight season. >> >> Tourist goes back many times to get the same. >> >> Last day tourist asks for the usual. Gets two small meatballs. Taste >> horrible. Asks waiter what happened. Waiter answers, you see sir, the >> matador does not always win! >> >> -- >> Giulio Prisco >> giulio at gmail.com >> (1)7177giulio >> On Oct 11, 2011 12:17 PM, "spike" wrote: >> >>> On 10 Oct 2011, at 20:42, Adrian Tymes wrote:**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Should he get the better of the matador, the matador's assistants >>> come in to finish the job.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Ah, assistants. Well if the matador gets to have assistants, then the >>> bull should get assistants, matched one for one. Have that ring with half a >>> dozen humans and half a dozen bulls. They say bullfighting brings tourists, >>> well do let me assure you, fill that arena with humans and bulls, watch the >>> tourists pour in. Think of the commercial value from TV, the three leading >>> reality programs alone: Spain?s Stupidest Home Videos, El Jackasso, and >>> Owww, Ay Carumba.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Oy vey, I need to leave this topic now, it?s making me crazy.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> spike**** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 12 21:33:10 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:33:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy In-Reply-To: References: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> Message-ID: <081501cc8926$8a37b150$9ea713f0$@att.net> . On Behalf Of John Grigg >. goes into a stem cell clinic, and upon coming out a few minutes later in perfect shape says, "hey, why aren't we funding this???" LOL John We are funding this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 22:17:49 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:17:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy In-Reply-To: <081501cc8926$8a37b150$9ea713f0$@att.net> References: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> <081501cc8926$8a37b150$9ea713f0$@att.net> Message-ID: > > Spike, this episode of Family Guy came out several years ago, when > fundamentalists were making things iffy regarding solid government funding > of stem cell research. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 22:30:39 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:30:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <078e01cc88f0$8eb8dc30$ac2a9490$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike wrote: >Understatement. If anyone actually did what this ad claims, they would amass a fortune >greater than any in history, dwarfing the combined fortunes of Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. Spike, have you ever considered going back to college and studying biotech? You have been blessed with a sharp mind and who knows what kind of contribution you might make. Oh, and you might become a very wealthy man along the way! : ) John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 12 23:22:21 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:22:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <078e01cc88f0$8eb8dc30$ac2a9490$@att.net> Message-ID: <083c01cc8935$cbbdd730$63398590$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] Avon's latest >.Spike, have you ever considered going back to college and studying biotech? You have been blessed with a sharp mind and who knows what kind of contribution you might make. Oh, and you might become a very wealthy man along the way! : ) John Actually right now I am having fun with the AI class that started this week. It has given me a ton of ideas. Just today I put the finishing touches on the first draft of a powerpoint presentation for Matryoshka Brains. I intend to pitch it three weeks from Friday at a Society of Allied Weight Engineers southwestern US conference. I sent that off about an hour ago to three Royal Smart Persons for review and comment, then I will make final edits based on that, then off to the printers. If anyone here want to review and comment, I will post it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 12 23:33:53 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:33:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy In-Reply-To: References: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> <081501cc8926$8a37b150$9ea713f0$@att.net> Message-ID: <084101cc8937$67cd5be0$376813a0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:18 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] new stem cell therapy Spike, this episode of Family Guy came out several years ago, when fundamentalists were making things iffy regarding solid government funding of stem cell research. John John, this is a critically important point sir: there was an erroneous conflation of stem cell research with embryonic stem cell research. The fundamentalists were against creating embryos to harvest stem cells. They managed to get government funding of that restricted. That freed up more government money for patient-derived stem cell research, which ended up being far more fruitful, since the patient-derived cells do not need immune system suppressants. I do insist Johnny that you understand that subtle but important point. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 00:08:30 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:08:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy In-Reply-To: <084101cc8937$67cd5be0$376813a0$@att.net> References: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> <081501cc8926$8a37b150$9ea713f0$@att.net> <084101cc8937$67cd5be0$376813a0$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike wrote: > John, this is a critically important point sir: there was an erroneous > conflation of stem cell research with embryonic stem cell research. The > fundamentalists were against creating embryos to harvest stem cells. They > managed to get government funding of that restricted. That freed up more > government money for patient-derived stem cell research, which ended up > being far more fruitful, since the patient-derived cells do not need immune > system suppressants. **** > > ** ** > > I do insist Johnny that you understand that subtle but important point.*** > * > > >>>> > Yes, I did know this, and should have been more exact in my words. All I can say to you and Damien (who hemmed and hawed about this in the early stages of the fray) is..., "The Lord surely works in mysterious ways!" Oh, have you seen the Book of Mormon musical yet? I can't wait!!! I will yell "blasphemy" during the whole performance and get thrown out by security, unless I am laughing so hard that I am unable to cause trouble! John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 00:41:52 2011 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:41:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: <083c01cc8935$cbbdd730$63398590$@att.net> References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <078e01cc88f0$8eb8dc30$ac2a9490$@att.net> <083c01cc8935$cbbdd730$63398590$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/12 spike : > Just today I put the finishing touches on the first draft of a powerpoint > presentation for Matryoshka Brains. ?I intend to pitch it three weeks from > Friday at a Society of Allied Weight Engineers southwestern US conference. > I sent that off about an hour ago to three Royal Smart Persons for review > and comment, then I will make final edits based on that, then off to the > printers. > > If anyone here want to review and comment, I will post it. I thought AI class posting did not count towards voluntary daily limits... So do post that content. .. unless of course the Royal Smart Persons have some exclusive rights. From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 13 02:02:23 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:02:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <078e01cc88f0$8eb8dc30$ac2a9490$@att.net> <083c01cc8935$cbbdd730$63398590$@att.net> Message-ID: <087001cc894c$267c9380$7375ba80$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty Subject: Re: [ExI] Avon's latest 2011/10/12 spike : >> Just today I put the finishing touches on the first draft of a >> powerpoint presentation for Matryoshka Brains... > >> If anyone here want to review and comment, I will post it. >...I thought AI class posting did not count towards voluntary daily limits... Ja, but the MBrain pitch isn't AI class or related at all. I downplayed that aspect of MBrains. This audience is filled with stodgy engineers, not hard core types like... us. >...So do post that content. I would have, but it's over 20 megabytes. Theoretically I could give myself permission and jam that through the filter, but I don't consider that quite right. >... unless of course the Royal Smart Persons have some exclusive rights. No, these are three guys who have been anticipating this pitch however, three guys with whom I have been discussing the matter offlist. There are still two guys here I hope will volunteer to read the pitch, Eugen and Anders. Actually I probably need to reference both as contributors of ideas to the whole notion. Before he became distracted by another project (the computer history thing) Robert Bradbury and I were anticipating co-authoring a book on MBrains. Not a word of it was written at his unexpected and untimely passing. So now it is a solo act, but I would welcome critical review of the presentation. Mike are you upwardly signing? spike From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 08:51:55 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:51:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space Message-ID: Sad piece, lamenting the end of Mankind's leap into space. ------------------ Wednesday, August 24, 2011 An Elegy for the Age of Space The orbiters are silent now, waiting for the last awkward journey that will take them to the museums that will warehouse the grandest of our civilization?s failed dreams. There will be no countdown, no pillar of flame to punch them through the atmosphere and send them whipping around the planet at orbital speeds. All of that is over. That?s the second reason that the space age is ending, not just for us but for humanity. In the final analysis, space travel was simply the furthest and most characteristic offshoot of industrial civilization, and depended?as all of industrial civilization depends?on vast quantities of cheap, highly concentrated, readily accessible energy. That basic condition is coming to an end around us right now. ------------- So, it basically comes down to the fact that unless a new source of cheap, concentrated energy becomes available, our civilization has to drastically scale back the dreams of the future. BillK From alito at organicrobot.com Thu Oct 13 08:52:57 2011 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:52:57 +1100 Subject: [ExI] fun video for flight controls engineers In-Reply-To: <07c901cc8911$3d643b10$b82cb130$@att.net> References: <07c901cc8911$3d643b10$b82cb130$@att.net> Message-ID: <4E96A6E9.2060002@organicrobot.com> On 10/13/11 06:00, spike wrote: > > > Is this cool or what? > > http://www.dogwork.com/owfo8/ > > How does a bird figure out how to do this? And get it exactly right on the > first try? Or at least very close on the first try. Flight is unforgiving. > Very related: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/locomotion/perching.html Do watch the videos linked from that page (eg http://groups.csail.mit.edu/locomotion/perching_media/video/perching_project.mp4 ) if you haven't before From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:18:08 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:18:08 +0200 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> <2C6E3F08-9F42-4576-B48F-F066E8818D89@gmail.com> <067a01cc882f$5784e770$068eb650$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/12 John Grigg > Perhaps one day Spain can have robot bulls, with the exact outward > appearance of a real bull, that are programmed to behave like the flesh and > blood animal, even to the point of potentially injuring a matador. But they > would have built-in vulnerabilities the human opponent would be aiming to > strike. > This would not be nice to the robot-bull... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:20:34 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:20:34 +0200 Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy In-Reply-To: <084101cc8937$67cd5be0$376813a0$@att.net> References: <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> <081501cc8926$8a37b150$9ea713f0$@att.net> <084101cc8937$67cd5be0$376813a0$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/13 spike > John, this is a critically important point sir: there was an erroneous > conflation of stem cell research with embryonic stem cell research. The > fundamentalists were against creating embryos to harvest stem cells. They > managed to get government funding of that restricted. That freed up more > government money for patient-derived stem cell research, which ended up > being far more fruitful, since the patient-derived cells do not need immune > system suppressants. > *If* it is true, in matters of policies I am a little more reluctant to rely on lucky coincidences, where bad intentions lead to happy results... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:33:16 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:33:16 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/12 Amon Zero > I'll wager that they tested the name on focus groups, and the focus groups > either didn't know or care about any association with eugenics, or what > eugenics is. > I do not claim to have made any extensive research on the subject, but I suspect that in Italy most people who are not bioethically aligned to the Catholic church do make a difference between "eugenics", which they are likely to consider simply a research field such as "ecology", and "eugenism", which they are likely to consider as the naive and rather ridiculous idea of the US in the 20s that any problem can be solved with repressive eugenic measures (see the legislative bill in the state of Missouri regarding the sterilisation of car thieves that I mention in my book on biopolitics at http://www.biopolitica.it!). -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:35:54 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:35:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Elegy or... eulogy? On 13 October 2011 10:51, BillK wrote: > Sad piece, lamenting the end of Mankind's leap into space. > > ------------------ > Wednesday, August 24, 2011 > An Elegy for the Age of Space > The orbiters are silent now, waiting for the last awkward journey that > will take them to the museums that will warehouse the grandest of our > civilization?s failed dreams. There will be no countdown, no pillar of > flame to punch them through the atmosphere and send them whipping > around the planet at orbital speeds. All of that is over. > > < > http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2011/08/elegy-for-age-of-space.html > > > > That?s the second reason that the space age is ending, not just for us > but for humanity. In the final analysis, space travel was simply the > furthest and most characteristic offshoot of industrial civilization, > and depended?as all of industrial civilization depends?on vast > quantities of cheap, highly concentrated, readily accessible energy. > That basic condition is coming to an end around us right now. > ------------- > > > So, it basically comes down to the fact that unless a new source of > cheap, concentrated energy becomes available, our civilization has to > drastically scale back the dreams of the future. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 13:46:09 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] fun video for flight controls engineers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318513569.12089.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "spike" puzzled: > Is this cool or what? > > http://www.dogwork.com/owfo8/ > > How does a bird figure out how to do this?? And get it > exactly right on the > first try?? Or at least very close on the first > try.? Flight is unforgiving. Exactly the same way you scratch your arse on the way to the bathroom first thing in the morning, Spike. Ain't nature wonderful? (as well as awful, vicious, uncaring, etc.) :>> Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 13:55:36 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 97, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318514136.51496.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > From: "spike" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Subject: [ExI] new stem cell therapy > Message-ID: > <07e101cc891a$c3d6a1c0$4b83e540$@att.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > OK, score one for the stem cell guys! > > http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/the_skin_gun Agree, but what a godawful video! The technology is pretty awesome, but the delivery was puke-inducing. Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 13:58:39 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Ancient human ancestor had sixth sense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318514319.15408.YahooMailClassic@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> John Grigg asked: > Damien, what do you think?? > > > http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/10/11/Ancient-human-ancestor-had-sixth-sense/UPI-86011318383392/ I dunno what Damien thinks (if he even deigns to reply), but I think that certain science journalists need some sense electrocuting into them. Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 14:17:48 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318515468.10109.YahooMailClassic@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yep, the space age is dead. Long live the space age! The space age is dead in the sense that the horse-drawn-carriage-age is dead. There will be no Post-Simians on Mars, alas! See you on Mars in 2161! (One of me might, anyway. Anyone care to arrange a future rendezvous of a future self?) Ben Zaiboc From ddraig at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:24:08 2011 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 01:24:08 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Ancient human ancestor had sixth sense In-Reply-To: <1318514319.15408.YahooMailClassic@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318514319.15408.YahooMailClassic@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 14 October 2011 00:58, Ben Zaiboc wrote: >> http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/10/11/Ancient-human-ancestor-had-sixth-sense/UPI-86011318383392/ > > I dunno what Damien thinks (if he even deigns to reply), but I think that certain science journalists need some sense electrocuting into them. What, repeatedly? ;p Dwayne -- ?? ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep From bbenzai at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 14:44:09 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318517049.68318.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Eugen Leitl grumbled: > > > Don't spend too much time on this. It's not going > to work. > > > > Well, it's my time to spend.? I want to at least > understand /why/ it's not going to work, if it's not.? > And maybe thereby get an idea of what might work. > > Ask your actuarial table when you're going to die, then > think > whether above will help you. I'm fairly sure it won't. Ouch. I'm a lateral thinker, dammit! Actuarial tables are averaged over a population of people who seldom think about much more than what's on telly, how delicious does that doughnut look and who can they shag without the missus/old man finding out. I spit on them. (Actuarial tables, I mean, not the people). Besides, if thinking about neural interfaces doesn't help me, but does help other people, does that not make it worthwhile? I actually think it's /important/ to muse about things that, if they did work, would make a huge (huge? I mean ENORMOUS) difference to things. Even if the likelihood of them actually working is pretty tiny. One of those ideas will work, one day, and that will be worth all the failed ideas that precede it. Please, don't discourage people from thinking outside the box. It's an important activity, even if the thinkers themselves may not benefit from it (and even it they are hopelessly naive, and have crap ideas). What we need is /constructive/ criticism, not "don't bother". Tell me to get an education (working on that, actually), tell me to do my maths again, tell me to talk to an expert, but don't tell me not to bother. Ben Zaiboc (sorry if that turned into a bit of a rant! I do feel strongly about it) From ddraig at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:59:35 2011 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 01:59:35 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bull whoops ass In-Reply-To: <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> References: <01f301cc85d6$5b950490$12bf0db0$@att.net> <04fb01cc8781$e57d0b10$b0772130$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/11 spike That bull is declared a champion forever. Never again does he enter the > arena. They patch him up, allow him to live his life breeding with the > heifers sired by other champion bulls. That way, every bull from that > particular pasture has a father and moo-ternal grandfather which managed to > draw blood from el matador, or better yet to plunge an enraged horn up his > el asso, or cause him to retreat in terror from the ring in any fashion with > the bull still standing and snorting. Over time, better and better El Toros > would evolve. Future matadors beware. OLE! > > > Funniest thing I have read all week, Spike. :-) Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... *http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg* our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 15:06:28 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:06:28 +0200 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: <1318515468.10109.YahooMailClassic@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318515468.10109.YahooMailClassic@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 13 October 2011 16:17, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > Yep, the space age is dead. Long live the space age! > > The space age is dead in the sense that the horse-drawn-carriage-age is > dead. > No, I am more inclined to see it dead in the same sense that speed records for ground, sea, air, space have been stationary for decades, and speed *averages* are even declining, so that horse-drawn carriages may actually be on the way of becoming fashionable again. So much for the law of exponential returns. :-( -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 13 15:11:48 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:11:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ancient human ancestor had sixth sense In-Reply-To: <1318514319.15408.YahooMailClassic@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318514319.15408.YahooMailClassic@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008901cc89ba$6e28c5f0$4a7a51d0$@att.net> > Damien, what do you think?? > > >> http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/10/11/Ancient-human-ancestor-had-sixth- sense/UPI-86011318383392/ >I dunno what Damien thinks (if he even deigns to reply), but I think that certain science journalists need some sense electrocuting into them. Ben Zaiboc Damien is taking a temporary well-deserved break from us, so do post to him directly offlist. spike From amon at doctrinezero.com Thu Oct 13 14:39:51 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:39:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: <1318515468.10109.YahooMailClassic@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318515468.10109.YahooMailClassic@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 13 October 2011 15:17, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > Yep, the space age is dead. Long live the space age! > > The space age is dead in the sense that the horse-drawn-carriage-age is > dead. > > There will be no Post-Simians on Mars, alas! Yes, that's very much how I view it, too. As the article suggests, this just represents the end of the industrial age as it pertains to space exploration. The end of the industrial phase isn't the end of tech development. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Thu Oct 13 17:23:33 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:23:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Avon's latest In-Reply-To: References: <1318366911.3269.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/13 Stefano Vaj > > I do not claim to have made any extensive research on the subject, but I > suspect that in Italy most people who are not bioethically aligned to the > Catholic church do make a difference between "eugenics", which they are > likely to consider simply a research field such as "ecology", and > "eugenism", which they are likely to consider as the naive and rather > ridiculous idea of the US in the 20s that any problem can be solved with > repressive eugenic measures (see the legislative bill in the state of > Missouri regarding the sterilisation of car thieves that I mention in my > book on biopolitics at http://www.biopolitica.it!). That's interesting... I can't readily imagine any significant minority in today's Anglo-Saxon world having such a nuanced view of things... - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 19:10:39 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:10:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:51 AM, BillK wrote: > Sad piece, lamenting the end of Mankind's leap into space. Also bullshit. The end of NASA, or government programs in general, as the sole and only means of entry into space? Yeah, good riddance to that. Meanwhile I'm talking up the accomplishments of my friends at XCOR, looking forward to when they go orbital, and I'm looking into taking a crack at this Nanosat Centennial Challenge in a way that can lay the infrastructure for affordable tickets for ordinary people to go into space. > So, it basically comes down to the fact that unless a new source of > cheap, concentrated energy becomes available, our civilization has to > drastically scale back the dreams of the future. Pff. Cost of entry into space has a lot less to do with the actual rocket technology than is commonly believed. Instead you've got the launch ranges - they see maybe one or two launches a year, so they need to tag a few $M onto the launch costs: that's most of their budget. And the satellite makers, who want to customize each rocket for their particular satellite - they're paying the bills, so they get to jack the price they pay up. Oh, and how about that massive lack of automation in prepping & testing the rockets, because of course the cost is so high there aren't that many launches (thus, little ability to amortize automation) so the cost has to be high (to cover the rocket makers' budget). And so on. Get all of those down to airliner-grade operations, and you could slash costs to less than 10%, probably (with a lot of effort) less than 1%, of the current cost without changing what fuel the rocket uses. Of course, this is not sustainable without a lot more customers, which is impossible without lower prices - chicken and the egg, and most current operators are satisfied with how things are. Not that it would hurt if, say, you had a within-mass-budget way to keep a fusion reaction going and use the plasma for exhaust for about 10 minutes, which might give you enough thrust per weight to make fully reusable space planes viable. Main problem there, until we have fusion reactors that make more energy than they use, is storing enough power on board to keep the reaction going: batteries, as fuel, are heavy. From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 13 19:53:11 2011 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:53:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: [ExI] Hibernation on demand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1318535591.77989.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> "John Grigg wrote: I wonder if this technique, or something similar, will ever be used by NASA? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7588904/" It's probably referencing the latest research involving the DADLE group of leu-encephalins. I remember reading a few years back that researchers had succeeded in making a species of prairie dog that doesn't hibernate (but is in the same genus as a species that does hibernate) enter hibernation by using DADLE, which was the most impressive case of making a mammal hibernate at that time. I think it got quoted by the Journal of the british interplanetary society. A quick web search for "DADLE journal british interplanetary" brings me to the space archaelogy wiki page ?http://www.spacearchaeology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Journal_of_the_British_Interplanetary_Society ? March/April 2006 issue includes 3 papers on hibernation, as well as Gregory Benford on beamed energy space propulsion. Sounded like a good issue. I'd better see if I can get some overtime at work so I can afford to join the BIS and subscribe to the journal. Tom From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 00:07:11 2011 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:07:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: <1318517049.68318.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318517049.68318.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > Tell me to get an education (working on that, actually), tell me to do my maths again, tell me to talk to an expert, but don't tell me not to bother. > Get an education, do your maths again, and talk to an expert. :) > Ben Zaiboc > (sorry if that turned into a bit of a rant! I do feel strongly about it) Thanks though, for voicing what I was disinclined to express myself. From dennislmay at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 01:14:48 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] OPERA Internal Deliberations Message-ID: <1318554888.70012.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/47427 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 01:53:17 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:53:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Any chance we can get a third party candidate to actually say this in 2012? Message-ID: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-third-party-stump-speech-we-need/2011/09/22/gIQAjzx8wK_story.html From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 03:25:40 2011 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1318562740.54531.YahooMailNeo@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: BillK > To: Extropy Chat > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:51 AM > Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space > > Sad piece, lamenting the end of Mankind's leap into space. > So, it basically comes down to the fact that unless a new source of > cheap, concentrated energy becomes available, our civilization has to > drastically scale back the dreams of the future. It might be looking for new sources of cheap energy that?force us out there in the first place. Case in point is the Saturnian moon Titan. Titan has *seas* of liquid hydrocarbon. Enough to turn Earth into Venus if we brought them here and burned them. So?let's find a better energy source no? ? Stuart LaForge ? "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things bought and sold are legislators." - P. J. O'Rourke From ddraig at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 04:58:05 2011 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:58:05 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [tt] The Stars Are Not Too Far In-Reply-To: <20111013151802.GI25711@leitl.org> References: <20111013151802.GI25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: Hey, Charlie, plug from Vernor Vinge - well done! Dwayne ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eugen Leitl Date: 14 October 2011 02:18 Subject: [tt] The Stars Are Not Too Far To: tt at postbiota.org http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/10/the-stars-are-not-too-far?WT.mc_id=0 The Stars Are Not Too Far Vernor Vinge Later this month, Tor Books will publish my new novel, The Children of the Sky. This is an adventure on the Tines World, a sequel to A Fire Upon the Deep. Over the years, I?ve written about the likelihood of a Technological Singularity, that is, that we humans may soon use technology to create or become beings of superhuman intelligence. If the Singularity happens, interstellar travel will probably become very easy, even without faster-than-light travel: AIs could probably fit in starships the size of a can of soda, boosted by almost-ordinary lasers. Such minds could tune their own consciousness so that the missions would seem as fast as they please. See Charles Stross?s novel Accelerando for a brilliant vision of interstellar travel in a Singularity era. On the other hand, the decisions and even the motives of superhuman minds are beyond our ken. Back in the 1960s, editor John W. Campbell, Jr., rejected my attempt at a godling story with the comment (close to an exact quote): ?I?m sorry, Mr. Vinge. You can?t write this story ? and neither can anyone else.? Brief forays are possible (as with Accelerando), but writing sustained adventure in a post-Singular universe is a hell of a challenge. All space opera writers face this problem, even if they themselves don?t believe in the Singularity; after all, many of their readers do think the Singularity is coming. So we writers have come up with a number of explanations for why the Singularity is irrelevant to our space stories or why the Singularity never happens. For instance, there are the Zones of Thought in the universe of A Fire Upon the Deep. I think the Technological Singularity is the most plausible noncatastrophic scenario for our near future. On the other hand, anyone who is serious about the future (science-fiction writer or not) should also be thinking about what the consequences will be if the Singularity does not happen. See my own talk about this at the Long Now Foundation. If there is no Singularity, humanity could be destined for something like the space operas we enjoy so much ? and the Twenty-First Century could be the time when we step onto the interstellar stage. Science fiction readers and writers are not the only people who think this: by the time you read this posting, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) should already have held their 100 Year Starship meeting in Orlando, Florida. I?m attending that meeting and I plan to contribute my own $0.02 worth to the conversation. Spreading civilization beyond this Solar System is the best long-term assurance of human survival. Even without the Singularity, it could be begun in this century ? if we can achieve industrial production on an interplanetary scale. But decades can pass with virtually no progress. Now in 2011, we know several methods for interplanetary space flight that could reduce travel in the inner solar system to the scale of sea travel in the seventeenth or eighteenth century. The problem is that we can?t use such methods until we are already at least in orbit. And that is the key technical bottleneck: even after adjusting for inflation, the price of delivering a kilogram of payload up to low-earth orbit is about the same in 2011 as it was in 1969. Another forty years of such disappointing progress will leave us with nothing but faded dreams. Without drastically cheaper launch systems, money spent on probes and manned space flight is limited to small and super-expensive payloads ? and research about other aspects of spaceflight operations is condemned to be theory without benefit of practice. Developing a cheap orbital launch system may be a hard problem; certainly no one has demonstrated a solution and the last forty years have shown us how inapproprate a government-controlled megaprogram can be for problems without sure solutions. In my Long Now talk cited above, I make suggestions for how this impasse may be broken. A military arms race between Earth?s superpowers would probably do the trick; having short-term, deadly deadlines can work miracles, but such a military path would also be a ghastly, dangerous thing. There are other ways, safer ones. I suggest: ? ?Privately sponsored competitions such as the X-Prizes. These give companies and small groups a motive to demonstrate key technological solutions, with the risks borne by those groups and companies. ? ?Real economic prizes in the form of promises from governments and/or the largest corporations: ?Give me a price to orbit of $X/Kg, and I?ll give you Y tonnes of business per year for Z years.? Again, the financial risks are taken by the developers who accept the challenge. ? ?We should abandon the idea of a government program to develop the ?one true method?. In particular, there should be no government money up front. In an era where cheap launch solutions are still waiting to be discovered, such funding simply suppresses all other methods ? most likely suppressing the one(s) that would really work. If we can break the launch-price bottleneck, this century can be the time when humankind spreads across the inner solar system out to the asteroid belt. Twentieth Century science-fiction dreamed of the power of such a civilization, and those dreams may still be the truest prophecy of our time: At the end of the Twenty-First Century, with asteroid-based industries supporting GDPs a million times what we have now, interstellar flight will be a doable adventure! The stars are not too far. _______________________________________________ tt mailing list tt at postbiota.org http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt -- ?? ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 06:03:34 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:03:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: <1318562740.54531.YahooMailNeo@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318562740.54531.YahooMailNeo@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 4:25 AM, The Avantguardian wrote: > It might be looking for new sources of cheap energy that?force us out there in the first place. > Case in point is the Saturnian moon Titan. Titan has *seas* of liquid hydrocarbon. Enough to > turn Earth into Venus if we brought them here and burned them. So?let's find a better energy source no? > > That is one option to hope for. Is it hope or wishful thinking? Our world is on the cusp of change. The largest ever population, burning through the last remnants of oil, coal and gas at the fastest ever rate. We have to change to using different energy sources. That will be a huge upheaval that may not leave enough resources for space exploration. Daily survival may become a more immediate problem. If no replacement for oil is found, we will have a very different civilization. And space might well not be part of that, if we are relying on solar and wind power and some nuclear power plants. BillK From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 14 09:35:56 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:35:56 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Parallel Man In-Reply-To: <1318517049.68318.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318517049.68318.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111014093556.GT25711@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 07:44:09AM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > Actuarial tables are averaged over a population of people who seldom think about much more than what's on telly, how delicious does that doughnut look and who can they shag without the missus/old man finding out. > I spit on them. (Actuarial tables, I mean, not the people). Actually, I'm willing to bet your risk is higher than the average. The same personality traits which make people open to transhumanism (and cryonics) result in them running a higher personal risk. Exceptions, of course, can and do exist. > Besides, if thinking about neural interfaces doesn't help me, but does help other people, does that not make it worthwhile? Sure, some of the things you can do today and won't directly benefit from will help other people. However, there are plenty of things you can do today and will directly benefit you and people living today, as well as those in the future. > I actually think it's /important/ to muse about things that, if they did work, would make a huge (huge? I mean ENORMOUS) difference to things. Even if the likelihood of them actually working is pretty tiny. One of those ideas will work, one day, and that will be worth all the failed ideas that precede it. I agree. No need to duplicate effort where prior work shew it's not worthwhile. > Please, don't discourage people from thinking outside the box. It's an important activity, even if the thinkers themselves may not benefit from it (and even it they are hopelessly naive, and have crap ideas). What we need is /constructive/ criticism, not "don't bother". The "don't bother" was a shorthand for a more technical argument. Please realize that people have trodden this ground 15-20 years ago, and some even prior. Technology changes, the laws of physics do not. > Tell me to get an education (working on that, actually), Do defintely get an education. > tell me to do my maths again, *Did* you run the number of cubic microns in a brain, and amount of instrumentation required? I ask because I haven't seen these numbers in your post. > tell me to talk to an expert, but don't tell me not to bother. Do talk to an expert. However, if she tells you not to bother, and tells you why, it's probably a good idea to turn towards area with more and better short-term ROI. I would say that fixation/plastination, vitrification, scanners, brain surface pickup, NIR brain video pickup and carbon nanotube pickup via vascular access and the like are good and easy. Looking at Freitastech level of technology http://nanomedicine.com/ be better postponed until we're sure it lands sufficiently soon to take it into account. > > Ben Zaiboc > (sorry if that turned into a bit of a rant! I do feel strongly about it) Both are good things. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 14 09:50:09 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:50:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [tt] The Stars Are Not Too Far In-Reply-To: References: <20111013151802.GI25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20111014095009.GW25711@leitl.org> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 03:58:05PM +1100, ddraig wrote: > Hey, Charlie, plug from Vernor Vinge - well done! Not sure Charles Stross still reads this list. Judging from his blog he's far too busy for that. The Children of the Sky is now out (I've just bought it via Amazon Kindle for Android; Kindle for PC and Calibre will get rid of the pesky DRM). > Dwayne -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 14 09:59:59 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:59:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: References: <1318562740.54531.YahooMailNeo@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111014095959.GX25711@leitl.org> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 07:03:34AM +0100, BillK wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 4:25 AM, The Avantguardian wrote: > > It might be looking for new sources of cheap energy that?force us out there in the first place. Solar output is 4 MT/s, Earth gets 2 kg/s of that. > > Case in point is the Saturnian moon Titan. Titan has *seas* of liquid hydrocarbon. Enough to > > turn Earth into Venus if we brought them here and burned them. So?let's find a better energy source no? Head kersplodes. I think I'll start importing firewood from Australia. > > > > > > > That is one option to hope for. Is it hope or wishful thinking? > > Our world is on the cusp of change. The largest ever population, > burning through the last remnants of oil, coal and gas at the fastest > ever rate. We have to change to using different energy sources. That The renewable substitution rate is on an exponential track so far http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/35/35671/1.html Insanity might not prevail, after all. Let's talk again 2040-2050ish. > will be a huge upheaval that may not leave enough resources for space Only if there's a global war. > exploration. Daily survival may become a more immediate problem. > > If no replacement for oil is found, we will have a very different The replacement for fossil hydrocarbons is synthetic hydrocarbons, using renewable energy input. > civilization. And space might well not be part of that, if we are > relying on solar and wind power and some nuclear power plants. Nuclear is not fit for large-scale terrestrial civilian energy production. It will do fine elsewhere, though. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From ddraig at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 10:04:35 2011 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:04:35 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [tt] The Stars Are Not Too Far In-Reply-To: <20111014095009.GW25711@leitl.org> References: <20111013151802.GI25711@leitl.org> <20111014095009.GW25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 14 October 2011 20:50, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 03:58:05PM +1100, ddraig wrote: >> Hey, Charlie, plug from Vernor Vinge - well done! > > Not sure Charles Stross still reads this list. Judging > from his blog he's far too busy for that. Bummer, I thought he did. Oh well. Dwayne -- ?? ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 11:35:01 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:35:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] An Elegy for the Age of Space In-Reply-To: <20111014095959.GX25711@leitl.org> References: <1318562740.54531.YahooMailNeo@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111014095959.GX25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > The renewable substitution rate is on an exponential track so far > http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/35/35671/1.html > > Insanity might not prevail, after all. Let's talk again 2040-2050ish. > > The replacement for fossil hydrocarbons is synthetic hydrocarbons, > using renewable energy input. > So, we put large space projects on hold for 30 or 40 years (hobbyists allowed) while we retool everything to make sure the lights don't go out? The first use of solar power will be light and heat, water desalination and recharging batteries for every device we have. Oil is not only used for energy of course. Plastic products come from oil. So until we have enough spare solar energy capacity to create synthetic hydrocarbons there will be shortages. With all that and developments in other areas, it will be a very different world in 2040-2050, when humans might consider space projects again. I wonder what their priorities will be then? BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 15:03:31 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:03:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Any chance we can get a third party candidate to actually say this in 2012? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/14 Adrian Tymes > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-third-party-stump-speech-we-need/2011/09/22/gIQAjzx8wK_story.html > Why, the "stern sincerity" of the speech is quickly tempered by the continuing delusion of doing well by doing good in the best possible world, when he writes "The spread of capitalism is helping hundreds of millions of people rise out of poverty in India and China. That?s a fantastic thing for humanity. And if we manage it right, that can also be a positive thing for the United States, because the growing wealth of nations means billions of new customers for the kind of goods and services America ingenuity can produce." Why should America be intrinsically more ingenuous than other nations, and why should they open their market to it unless it reciprocates, thus being flooded by cheaper, better products manufactured elsewhere? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 14 16:40:39 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] FTL neutrinos explained? In-Reply-To: <20111014095959.GX25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1318610439.63315.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If this turns out to be the true explanation for faster than light neutrinos the CERN people should be ashamed of themselves, but it's hard to believe they could really be that dumb: ?http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685 ?? John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 03:10:14 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Minor Enhancements Message-ID: <1318648214.29002.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Why Many Cells Are Better Than One: Limited Decision-Making Ability of Individual Cells Is Bolstered in Masses http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111012161306.htm Input to the brain can come though the existing sensory system, bypassing the senses and go directly to the region of the brain where the senses are processed or you can bypass those routes and go?to regions of the brain or nerves not normally used for senses. New external sense(s) and new input location(s) along with external pre-processing might provide a series of gradual minor enhancements to grow interest and grow the market for more advanced systems. The first enhancements could be as simple as an application on a smart phone relayed wirelessly to an implant of some kind. Endless possibilities exist?to send signals to?the smart phone. I have heard that casinos are having to watch ever more clever means of?bringing in electronics to beat certain games.? Bringing enhanced abilities to everyday life should prove more interesting. I particularly like the idea of additional senses being readily available.? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Sat Oct 15 20:42:09 2011 From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:42:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Scientific Consensus Continues to Extend its Lead Amongst Competing Theories of Consciousness. Message-ID: <4E99F021.60406@canonizer.com> Press Release: Scientific Consensus Continues to Extend its Dramatic Lead Amongst Competing Theories of Consciousness. We've been continuing a sometimes slow and laborious survey of the experts process for several years now. We've been attending conferences, finding and interviewing experts in this field so that we might 'canonize' their views to measure and build as much consensus as possible around the best theories as part of the Consciousness Survey Project. The current body of "peer reviewed" work, and other surveys, seems to do nothing but confirm everyone's pervasive beliefs that there is no expert consensus in this field whatsoever. As seems to be common knowledge everyone regularly mocks the field and its complete lack of any significant results as mere "philosophies of men". However, the consensus building, amplification of the wisdom of the crowd open survey system at Canonizer.com, despite not yet receiving any funding - being researched and developed completely by volunteer crowd sourced work, might be about to falsify this pervasive belief that consciousness is so "hard" and that it is only almost approachable via a very few super brains. The dramatic early consensus emerging and extending its lead seems to be indicating there may already be a significant amount of agreement on a great many fairly simple things, in this theoretical field of science, after all. The supporters of this emerging consensus camp recently unanimously agreed to name it "Representational Qualia Theory". (see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/88/6 ). For the last 6 months, they have been collaboratively developing and negotiating a new version of the camp statement concisely describing what most of the experts appear to already agree on. It's not easy getting this much consensus from this many diverse experts. Such has never been achieved in the past. But it now appears possible if you have the right techniques, such as the ability to push lesser important disagreeable ideas out of the way, into sub camps, instead of exclusively focusing only on them. This new super camp statement, after months of negotiation, finally just recently made it through the unanimous canonization review process. In addition to answering the question of where redness is located (It is not a property of the strawberry, but of our knowledge of it) it includes the description of the *"Quale Interpretation Problem"* which is a mechanical description of why ineffable properties are blind to traditional cause and effect observation. It also includes predictions of various possible ways scientists will be able to get around this problem to "eff" these ineffable properties. (see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/102) Doing so, as predicted, would finally resolve the many long standing issues such as "the problem of other minds"', "what it is like to be a bat", possibly even falsifying "Idealism", "Solipsism", "Skepticism", for many and so on. The highest top super camp in the main survey topic addresses whether or not consciousness is approachable via science. So far, about 29 of the 35 participants are in this super camp with only a few brave souls willing to put their reputation on the line by standing up and supporting competing camps such as: "Consciousness is of Divine Origin and Unfathomable Apart from God". The emerging "Representational Qualia Theory" camp is at the next level down, surprisingly with almost as much consensus. When we first started this survey, we thought there would be many significant competitors to this camp such as simple "Direct Perception", "Naive Computational Functionalism" (very different than the qualophile Computational Functionalism Camp http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/88/9), "we don't have qualia, it just seems like we do", "idealism", "you can't eff the ineffable" and so on. At least, that is what the Wikipedia article on qualia and other sources (falsely?) leads one to believe. The initial motivation of this project was to get a concise and quantitative handle on any possible competing camps. We were also hoping for up to date, concise descriptions of the best theories with real time quantitative measures of how well accepted each was that nobody could deny, no matter how much they wanted to, or how much they used the noisy and popular publications to argue otherwise. Despite our continued best efforts to recruit experts to support any such competing camps, and make the survey more comprehensive, it is surprising how it seems that so far nobody is willing to stand up and make any effort to support any of them at anywhere near the rate, compared to the many emerging experts which are already so willing to support this new "Representational Qualia Theory". According to this emerging consensus camp there is significant consensus about WHERE redness and all the other phenomenal properties consciousness is composed of are located - the final result of the perception process. The only remaining yet to be falsified issue, at least for the experts appears to be the WHATs and HOWs of redness. At the sub camp levels below this consensus camp, some dramatic theories are forming about these WHATs and HOWs. The best of them are making obviously falsifiable predictions about just what science is about to discover and how it will validate each theory to the falsification of all competitors. The clear consensus continues at the next sub level with the Mind-Brain Identity theory camp leading against some finally significantly supported competitors such as Higher-dimension Theories (including the Smythies-Carr Hypothosis) and Panexperientialism. At the next level down the current consensus is far less clear and far more dramatic. The early and still holding on to its lead camp is the one led by David Chalmers, or "Functional Property Dualism". Its principle doctrine is Chalmers' "Invariance Principle" which holds that the same quale can "arise" in some "hard" way from any equivalent functional isomorph, from silicon to neurons, or anything that can do Turing computation. This theory is basically falsifiably predicting you will be able to reliably know when you are observing redness when you observe the right functionality. But a rapidly gaining camp appears to be on the verge of overtaking this consensus camp at this sub level. This is the "Material Property Dualism" camp which basically predicts that redness is simply a property of some material in the brain. It predicts that without this right stuff which has these phenomenal properties, you won't have redness. And if you observe the right stuff, in the right neural correlate state, you will be able to reliably know, in an effing way, what the person is experiencing. This emerging camp further breaks down into the newest to be canonized and obviously very popular sub "Orchestrated Object Reduction" camp lead by Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose. The lesser competitor is "Macro Property Dualism" which predicts phenomenal properties can just as easily be a property of any classical non quantum object, possibly some kind of standing wave of neural firing, even possibly a set of classical bouncing 'billiard balls', and that no quantum weirdness or any magic is required to discover or eff the ineffable. All that is required is proper communication, and thinking about it in the right way, to know what where and how to look/test for it. Of course, we continue to seek to make the survey more comprehensive in this crowd sourced open survey wiki way. Whether you are an expert (see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/53/11 ) or not, we seek to measure and compare it all. Even high school students have been making significant contributions to this amplification of the wisdom of the crowd process. Perhaps there is a much better way to organize this camp structure? If so, it can all be accommodated, according to the will of the scientific consensus. So if you feel there is a justified theory that could turn out to be the one validated by science, please help us get such 'canonized' for the benefit of everyone. There are volunteers ready to help integrate, or canonize your ideas into what has already been built. Help us sooner get to what could turn out to be the greatest scientific achievement of all time: The demonstrable discovery and agreement of what, where, and how the conscious mind is. As always, our goal is to rigorously capture and measure, in real time, when the demonstrable science validates the one theory and falsifies all others. When this revolution does take place, we hope to be able to see it very definitively and undeniably, as the experts start to abandon the finally falsified camps. Just out of the gate, it appears that at least at some level, this could have already started, likely in a more dramatic way than when we finally all followed Galileo's lead and switched from a geocentric solar system view. We hope to measure and speed up this process. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at alice.it Sun Oct 16 16:02:24 2011 From: scerir at alice.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:02:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] FTL neutrinos explained? In-Reply-To: <1318610439.63315.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1318610439.63315.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A4991DB3BDF41C8871E5E51E747AB7E@PCserafino> http://web.mit.edu/redingtn/www/netadv/XftlNu.html From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 10:23:02 2011 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Relativistic Uploads Message-ID: <1318846982.19425.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have a thought pertaining to the oft argued idea that space travel would be unpopular with posthumans because of subjective time slowing down to due to the higher clockspeed of a solid state substrate. I suddenly realized that?if this subjective?time speed up is quantitized as a ratio s=T/T0 then at a certain velocity v less than the speed of light, s?would be equal to?gamma from relativity (ie. 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2). So in theory, a space-faring posthuman could accelerate to?gamma=s and then their subjective time would be equal to time in the Earth frame of reference i.e. stationary observer. So then that v would be v=c*Sqrt(s^2-1)/s. ? So for example if the upload "lives" one thousand times faster than a human earth observer, then by going .9999995c, it would experience the same subjective time of flight?to the destination as a normal clock?at either the origin or destination. So if the post-human flew to proxima centauri at .9999995c then it would seem to take the posthuman 4.22?years by it's own clock meanwhile an identical 4.22 years would have passed for a normal human?on earth. ? So I think the whole time slow-down issue will not severely discourage space-travel amongst post-humans should they be able to achieve relativistic speeds. Let me know what you all think.? Stuart LaForge "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things bought and sold are legislators." - P. J. O'Rourke From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 17 10:48:01 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:48:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Relativistic Uploads In-Reply-To: <1318846982.19425.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318846982.19425.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111017104800.GI25711@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 03:23:02AM -0700, The Avantguardian wrote: > So I think the whole time slow-down issue will not severely discourage space-travel amongst post-humans should they be able to achieve relativistic speeds. Let me know what you all think.? Subjective time travel is zero is refresh rate is zero. Relativistic travel yes, but not too extremely (remember you have to brake on arrival). Most compact form of travel: seeds. You don't need more than a coke can's worth of volume. From bbenzai at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 12:24:52 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 05:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Relativistic Uploads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318854292.36867.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The Avantguardian wrote: > > I have a thought pertaining to the oft argued idea that > space travel would be unpopular with posthumans because of > subjective time slowing down to due to the higher clockspeed > of a solid state substrate. This is a new argument to me. If you had access to your own 'clockspeed', you could speed it up or slow it down at will, so that a journey of any length would take virtually any subjective time you like. You could make a journey of thousands of light-years take seconds. I think the most persuasive argument is the fragmentation of your society, due to communication lag. Ben Zaiboc From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 17 12:54:02 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:54:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Relativistic Uploads In-Reply-To: <1318854292.36867.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318854292.36867.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111017125402.GJ25711@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 05:24:52AM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > I think the most persuasive argument is the fragmentation of your society, due to communication lag. You say fragmentation, I say diversity. Founders don't have peers, they create them. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 14:58:24 2011 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? Message-ID: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey just a bizarre question I thought I would pose to the list since there are several polyglots on the list. In your opinion, what language is the most information dense and fastest to speak. For example if you lined up fluent?speakers in all the languages of the globe and had them read and memorize a page of text; then gave the speakers lets say sixty seconds of air time on a telephone, how much of the gist and detail of the page of text could the various language speakers reveal in 60 seconds? ? Stuart LaForge "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things bought and sold are legislators." - P. J. O'Rourke From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 17 15:31:24 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:31:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 07:58:24AM -0700, The Avantguardian wrote: > Hey just a bizarre question I thought I would pose to the list since there > are several polyglots on the list. In your opinion, what language is the most > information dense and fastest to speak. For example if you lined up > fluent?speakers in all the languages of the globe and had them read and > memorize a page of text; then gave the speakers lets say sixty seconds of air > time on a telephone, how much of the gist and detail of the page of text > could the various language speakers reveal in 60 seconds? Do you allow for rapid-fire delivery, assuming there are pockets of native speakers at that rate? From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 15:36:33 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:36:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2011 16:58, The Avantguardian wrote: > Hey just a bizarre question I thought I would pose to the list since there > are several polyglots on the list. In your opinion, what language is the > most information dense and fastest to speak. > C++? :-) Seriously? Latin, probably... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 17 15:54:18 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:54:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math Message-ID: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> This is a put-on, but it is hilarious anyways: http://www.circuitmart.com/hub/51778.shtml {8^D Liked the Scientology dig and the geek comment at the end. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 15:44:13 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:44:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Do you allow for rapid-fire delivery, assuming there are pockets of native > speakers at that rate? > 60 seconds probably rules out German. The verb won't have arrived yet. ;) BillK From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 17 16:03:33 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:03:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <039101cc8ce6$52ed1e60$f8c75b20$@att.net> >... Behalf Of The Avantguardian Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? >... In your opinion, what language is the most information dense and fastest to speak... Stuart LaForge Interesting question, one that in entirely testable. We would need polyglot volunteers, and I know we have a few here. Speculation: the answer depends entirely on the topic of the text. I am one of those English-only types, but even without a comparison reference, I can tell English is not ideal for seducing one's sweetheart. I don't know much Spanish (only what I have learned from living in California) but I can listen to Spanish love songs on the radio and assure you, those sound right for the purpose for which they were intended. Compare modern English popular music to modern Spanish popular music. Which one sounds like a man singing songs expressing feelings for his sweetheart? Now ask, which is the better language for describing some engineering topic? Of course, all spoken languages are too slow compared to written text. spike From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 17 16:16:59 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:16:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:44:13PM +0100, BillK wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Do you allow for rapid-fire delivery, assuming there are pockets of native > > speakers at that rate? > > > > 60 seconds probably rules out German. The verb won't have arrived yet. ;) German wouldn't be even on the map. I was thinking of Italian or (Cuban) Spanish, but apparently, Japanese (counterintuitively) is pretty good. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2091477,00.html Thursday, Sep. 08, 2011 Slow Down! Why Some Languages Sound So Fast By Jeffrey Kluger Here's one of the least interesting paragraphs you've ever read: "Last night I opened the front door to let the cat out. It was such a beautiful night that I wandered down to the garden to get a breath of fresh air. Then I heard a click as the door closed behind me." O.K., it becomes a little less eye-glazing after that, with the speaker getting arrested while trying to force the door back open. Still, we ain't talking No?l Coward here. All the same, this perfectly ordinary passage and a few others like it are part of an intriguing study just published in the journal Language ? a study that answers one of the longest-standing questions about human speech. (Read why speaking more than one language may delay Alzheimer's.) It's an almost universal truth that any language you don't understand sounds like it's being spoken at 200 m.p.h. ? a storm of alien syllables almost impossible to tease apart. That, we tell ourselves, is simply because the words make no sense to us. Surely our spoken English sounds just as fast to a native speaker of Urdu. And yet it's equally true that some languages seem to zip by faster than others. Spanish blows the doors off French; Japanese leaves German in the dust ? or at least that's how they sound. But how could that be? The dialogue in movies translated from English to Spanish doesn't whiz by in half the original time after all, which is what it should if the same lines were being spoken at double time. Similarly, Spanish films don't take four hours to unspool when they're translated into French. Somewhere among all the languages must be a great equalizer that keeps us conveying information at the same rate even if the speed limits vary from tongue to tongue. To investigate this puzzle, researchers from the Universit? de Lyon recruited 59 male and female volunteers who were native speakers of one of seven common languages ? English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Mandarin and Spanish ? and one not so common one: Vietnamese. All of them were instructed to read 20 different texts, including the one about the house cat and the locked door, into a recorder. All of the volunteers read all 20 passages in their native languages. Any silences that lasted longer than 150 milliseconds were edited out, but the recordings were left otherwise untouched. (Read about the death of a language.) The investigators next counted all of the syllables in each of the recordings and further analyzed how much meaning was packed into each of those syllables. A single-syllable word like bliss, for example, is rich with meaning ? signifying not ordinary happiness but a particularly serene and rapturous kind. The single-syllable word to is less information-dense. And a single syllable like the short i sound, as in the word jubilee, has no independent meaning at all. With this raw data in hand, the investigators crunched the numbers together to arrive at two critical values for each language: the average information density for each of its syllables and the average number of syllables spoken per second in ordinary speech. Vietnamese was used as a reference language for the other seven, with its syllables (which are considered by linguists to be very information-dense) given an arbitrary value of 1. For all of the other languages, the researchers discovered, the more data-dense the average syllable was, the fewer of those syllables had to be spoken per second ? and thus the slower the speech. English, with a high information density of .91, was spoken at an average rate of 6.19 syllables per second. Mandarin, which topped the density list at .94, was the spoken slowpoke at 5.18 syllables per second. Spanish, with a low-density .63, ripped along at a syllable-per-second velocity of 7.82. The true speed demon of the group, however, was Japanese, which edged past Spanish at 7.84, thanks to its low density of .49. Despite those differences, at the end of, say, a minute of speech, all of the languages would have conveyed more or less identical amounts of information. "A tradeoff is operating between a syllable-based average information density and the rate of transmission of syllables," the researchers wrote. "A dense language will make use of fewer speech chunks than a sparser language for a given amount of semantic information." In other words, your ears aren't deceiving you: Spaniards really do sprint and Chinese really do stroll, but they will tell you the same story in the same span of time. None of that, of course, makes the skull-cracking business of trying to learn a new language any easier. It does, however, serve as one more reminder that beneath all of the differences that separate Tagalog from Thai, from Norwegian, from Wolof, from any one of the world's 6,800 other languages, lie some very simple, very common rules. The DNA of speech ? like our actual DNA ? makes us a lot closer to one another than we think. From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 17 16:18:35 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:18:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> It would be hilarious to see nerds being asked if they think?grooming ?is important to teach children. Quoting spike : > > > This is a put-on, but it is hilarious anyways: > > > > http://www.circuitmart.com/hub/51778.shtml[1] > > > > {8^D > > > > Liked the Scientology dig and the geek comment at the end. > > > > spike > > Links: ------ [1] http://www.circuitmart.com/hub/51778.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 16:33:19 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> Message-ID: <1318869199.40977.YahooMailNeo@web160616.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On?Monday, October 17, 2011 11:54 AM spike spike66 at att.net?wrote: > This is a put-on, but it is hilarious anyways: > ? > http://www.circuitmart.com/hub/51778.shtml Yeah, obviously a put on, but one you might suspect is not. :) ? Regards, ? Dan From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 17 17:47:38 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:47:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <03b001cc8cf4$dc99fd50$95cdf7f0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl >Subject: Re: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? >> 60 seconds probably rules out German. The verb won't have arrived yet. ;) >...German wouldn't be even on the map. I was thinking of Italian or (Cuban) Spanish, but apparently, Japanese (counterintuitively) is pretty good. >...http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2091477,00.html... Read this comment aloud, knowing that Spanish is phonetically spelled, and say it with feeling: Usted es la mujer m?s hermosa del mundo, y te amo con mi entero coraz?n! In high school we had a Spanish-speaking exchange student. We wanted to learn some Spanish, so she gathered several of us lads and taught us several of these gooey sweet Spanish phrases that she loved to hear, and had us recite them individually, repeatedly, and in unison, making sure we had all the accents and emphasis just right. This is the comment which stuck in my mind all these years. Even non-Spanish speakers get the drift, ja? I have been using it on my own sweetheart for thirty years now, and it still works. {8-] I ranted last week about bullfighting, so I must make it clear that I am a big admirer of the Spanish people, with the sound and cadence of the language and the colorful aspects of their culture, the music, the style. I suspect most of them find bullfighting offensive too. To be fair, in the states we have our own version of recreational danger using farm animals as toys: rodeo. In our case the beast has about an even chance of winning and doesn't actually perish, but I can imagine the bucking bronco is not having as much fun as the buckaroos in the audience. Many of us know people who go on and on, with little if any memetic content to their speech. They speak much and say little. We know others whose spoken word is memetically very rich, with their every comment filled with interesting ideas. Robert Bradbury was a fine example of the latter case, and there are others one meets at transhumanist and singularity gatherings. spike From ismirth at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 17:35:19 2011 From: ismirth at gmail.com (Isabelle Hakala) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:35:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: Ok... this doesn't fit with your limitations, but ASL is the fastest communication I know of for common ideas. If you are trying to teach someone something they have never seen before it is NOT ideal, but for conveying a story, etc it is quick, direct, poetic, emotional, and removes all unnecessary words:) I have said many times that I feel everyone in the US should learn ASL. If it were manditory starting in elementary school there would be no reason to exclude the Deaf, everyone could sign in noisy clubs, wouldn't disturb others at the symphony by whispering, and would be able to tell an entire story in 1/10th the time. It is incredibly efficient. On Oct 17, 2011 9:17 AM, "Eugen Leitl" wrote: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:44:13PM +0100, BillK wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Eugen Leit... German wouldn't be even on the map. I was thinking of Italian or (Cuban) Spanish, but apparently, Japanese (counterintuitively) is pretty good. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2091477,00.html Thursday, Sep. 08, 2011 Slow Down! Why Some Languages Sound So Fast By Jeffrey Kluger Here's one of the least interesting paragraphs you've ever read: "Last night I opened the front door to let the cat out. It was such a beautiful night that I wandered down to the garden to get a breath of fresh air. Then I heard a click as the door closed behind me." O.K., it becomes a little less eye-glazing after that, with the speaker getting arrested while trying to force the door back open. Still, we ain't talking No?l Coward here. All the same, this perfectly ordinary passage and a few others like it are part of an intriguing study just published in the journal Language ? a study that answers one of the longest-standing questions about human speech. (Read why speaking more than one language may delay Alzheimer's.) It's an almost universal truth that any language you don't understand sounds like it's being spoken at 200 m.p.h. ? a storm of alien syllables almost impossible to tease apart. That, we tell ourselves, is simply because the words make no sense to us. Surely our spoken English sounds just as fast to a native speaker of Urdu. And yet it's equally true that some languages seem to zip by faster than others. Spanish blows the doors off French; Japanese leaves German in the dust ? or at least that's how they sound. But how could that be? The dialogue in movies translated from English to Spanish doesn't whiz by in half the original time after all, which is what it should if the same lines were being spoken at double time. Similarly, Spanish films don't take four hours to unspool when they're translated into French. Somewhere among all the languages must be a great equalizer that keeps us conveying information at the same rate even if the speed limits vary from tongue to tongue. To investigate this puzzle, researchers from the Universit? de Lyon recruited 59 male and female volunteers who were native speakers of one of seven common languages ? English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Mandarin and Spanish ? and one not so common one: Vietnamese. All of them were instructed to read 20 different texts, including the one about the house cat and the locked door, into a recorder. All of the volunteers read all 20 passages in their native languages. Any silences that lasted longer than 150 milliseconds were edited out, but the recordings were left otherwise untouched. (Read about the death of a language.) The investigators next counted all of the syllables in each of the recordings and further analyzed how much meaning was packed into each of those syllables. A single-syllable word like bliss, for example, is rich with meaning ? signifying not ordinary happiness but a particularly serene and rapturous kind. The single-syllable word to is less information-dense. And a single syllable like the short i sound, as in the word jubilee, has no independent meaning at all. With this raw data in hand, the investigators crunched the numbers together to arrive at two critical values for each language: the average information density for each of its syllables and the average number of syllables spoken per second in ordinary speech. Vietnamese was used as a reference language for the other seven, with its syllables (which are considered by linguists to be very information-dense) given an arbitrary value of 1. For all of the other languages, the researchers discovered, the more data-dense the average syllable was, the fewer of those syllables had to be spoken per second ? and thus the slower the speech. English, with a high information density of .91, was spoken at an average rate of 6.19 syllables per second. Mandarin, which topped the density list at .94, was the spoken slowpoke at 5.18 syllables per second. Spanish, with a low-density .63, ripped along at a syllable-per-second velocity of 7.82. The true speed demon of the group, however, was Japanese, which edged past Spanish at 7.84, thanks to its low density of .49. Despite those differences, at the end of, say, a minute of speech, all of the languages would have conveyed more or less identical amounts of information. "A tradeoff is operating between a syllable-based average information density and the rate of transmission of syllables," the researchers wrote. "A dense language will make use of fewer speech chunks than a sparser language for a given amount of semantic information." In other words, your ears aren't deceiving you: Spaniards really do sprint and Chinese really do stroll, but they will tell you the same story in the same span of time. None of that, of course, makes the skull-cracking business of trying to learn a new language any easier. It does, however, serve as one more reminder that beneath all of the differences that separate Tagalog from Thai, from Norwegian, from Wolof, from any one of the world's 6,800 other languages, lie some very simple, very common rules. The DNA of speech ? like our actual DNA ? makes us a lot closer to one another than we think. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 17 18:08:00 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:08:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math >.It would be hilarious to see nerds being asked if they think grooming is important to teach children. Hmmm, define this obscure term "grooming" please? {8^D s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:41:17 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:41:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/17 spike : > > Hmmm, define this obscure term ?grooming? please? > > I think it has to do with the shade of lipstick you wear and making sure your clothing is color co-ordinated. :) BillK From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:35:30 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:35:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: 2011/10/17 Isabelle Hakala : > Ok... this doesn't fit with your limitations, but ASL is the fastest > communication I know of for common ideas. If you are trying to teach someone > something they have never seen before it is NOT ideal, but for conveying a > story, etc it is quick, direct, poetic, emotional, and removes all > unnecessary words:) I have said many times that I feel everyone in the US > should learn ASL. If it were manditory starting in elementary school there > would be no reason to exclude the Deaf, everyone could sign? in noisy clubs, > wouldn't disturb others at the symphony by whispering, and would be able to > tell an entire story in 1/10th the time. It is incredibly efficient. The reason things like the scene in http://noneedforbushido.com/2010/comic/412/ have become such a stereotype is because they work. (In theory - though this comic and #413 illustrate the most common problem in practice.) From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:53:36 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:53:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 17 October 2011 18:16, Eugen Leitl wrote: > German wouldn't be even on the map. I was thinking of Italian or (Cuban) > Spanish, > but apparently, Japanese (counterintuitively) is pretty good. > > http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2091477,00.html > That is very interesting. I like languages, and have a (at least passive and/or rudimentary) knowledge of Italian, French, English, Latin, Ancient Greek, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Bulgarian and Japanese. Understanding spoken language is invariably the most difficult task for me (at least in my case first comes reading, then writing, then speaking, then understanding what people say, even though I understand that especially for women or non-visual men the process may be different), and while watching movies on disks even in languages I know passably well I often resort to undertitles to allow myself to go at the x1,5 speed afforded by my Playstation III without losing information. In terms of informational density, I still think that Latin would qualify, given that even translating a foreign text in Latin in most circumstances takes fewer lines than the original, and the opposite is invariably true. The time necessary to understand the Latin text, even for somebody who knows the language well - I could not say for a mother tongue, since I have never met one in flesh and bones... :-) - may however be longer. OTOH, Japanese utterances are even more concise, but for spoken Japanese the presence of so many homophones makes people take things from afar, offering a context first ("Speaking of the weather, it is not what we should like, rain could come, therefore we risk getting wet") , or repeat again and again the same concept in different fashions unless the meaning intended is clear, in order to avoid ambiguity. Not so in written Japanese, where the use of Chinese ideograms ensure monosemic writing, especially in legal jargon. And I understand that Japanese and Korean students who undertake fast-reading courses and contexts in their own respective languages beat average fast-reading westerners hands down - off? on? I hate phrasal verbs. :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 17 19:08:30 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:08:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <03e501cc8d00$29970020$7cc50060$@att.net> ... 2011/10/17 Isabelle Hakala : > ... I have said many times that I feel > everyone in the US should learn ASL. If it were manditory starting in > elementary school there would be no reason to exclude the Deaf, > everyone could sign? in noisy clubs, wouldn't disturb others at the > symphony by whispering... Instead of ASL, couldn't they just text each other? Seems like a perfect solution for the deaf as well as those in the noisy nightclubs and symphony performances. Actually now that I think about it, if this goes as I expect, nightclubs wouldn't be noisy. It would be the audio equivalent of a lights-out factory: a sound-out bar. spike From ismirth at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 19:30:16 2011 From: ismirth at gmail.com (Isabelle Hakala) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:30:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: Well, that is a great example of why everyone needs to learn sign, altho that wasn't ASL that is military sign. But isn't that clear to people who don't know sign? Stop. Look. 2 men over there. Disable them only. Rally. Now go. Very concise, and elegant. ASL gives entire concepts with the context usually obvious or embedded in the sign. On Oct 17, 2011 11:42 AM, "Adrian Tymes" wrote: 2011/10/17 Isabelle Hakala : > Ok... this doesn't fit with your limitations, but ASL is the fastest > communication I know of for... The reason things like the scene in http://noneedforbushido.com/2010/comic/412/ have become such a stereotype is because they work. (In theory - though this comic and #413 illustrate the most common problem in practice.) _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extrop... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amon at doctrinezero.com Mon Oct 17 15:19:44 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:19:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2011 15:58, The Avantguardian wrote: > iency > Hey just a bizarre question I thought I would pose to the list since there > are several polyglots on the list. In your opinion, what language is the > most information dense and fastest to speak. For example if you lined up > fluent speakers in all the languages of the globe and had them read and > memorize a page of text; then gave the speakers lets say sixty seconds of > air time on a telephone, how much of the gist and detail of the page of text > could the various language speakers reveal in 60 seconds? > This is almost certainly a highly naiive response, given that I'm not a fluent speaker of Japanese, but back when I did nstudy Japanese I was impressed by the fact that it almost seemed to have been designed by a computer programmer for purposes of optimal modularity, as opposed to the more-exceptions-than-rules nature than makes English English notoriously hard to learn. For example, the single phoneme "no" means "is owned by" or "belongs to". I wouldn't be at all surprised if such efficiency led to high information density. - A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 17 19:36:47 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:36:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> It has to do with style.? Lipstick is not an issue. Quoting BillK : > 2011/10/17 spike : >> >> Hmmm, define this obscure term ?grooming? please? >> >> > > I think it has to do with the shade of lipstick you wear and making > sure your clothing is color co-ordinated. > > > :) > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[1] > Links: ------ [1] http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 20:22:39 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Geez! I thought you meant something even more basic like washing and not looking like you just rolled out of bed. ? Regards, ? Dan ________________________________ From: "natasha at natasha.cc" To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math It has to do with style.? Lipstick is not an issue. Quoting BillK : > 2011/10/17 spike : >> >> Hmmm, define this obscure term ?grooming? please? > > I think it has to do with the shade of lipstick you wear and making > sure your clothing is color co-ordinated. > > > :) > > BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:36:05 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:36:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/17 Amon Zero > For example, the single phoneme "no" means "is owned by" or "belongs to". I > wouldn't be at all surprised if such efficiency led to high information > density. > Well, to play the devil's advocate, Saxon genitive (" 's ") was supposed to serve the same purpose, wasn't it? The loss or heavy semplification of declensions in contemporary European languages made for easier learning but for lesser syntactic concision... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 17 21:21:23 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:21:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> Cheat Sheet: Question: You have to select a style between a Tom Ford and Henry Ford, which to you select? Answer: Tom Ford Question: You are going to a dinner and cocktail reception. What colors do you wear? Answer: Black slacks, black leather jacket, black silk t-shirt, black socks and black shoes (preferably shinned) Question: You are going to Comic Con, what do you wear? Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and sandals (no socks!) Question: You are going to a Humanity+ @ or Singularity Summit. What do you wear? Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and black shoes (Puma or Oaklay ok, but no sneakers!) Question: Your hair needs combing, what do you do? Answer: Spike it. Quoting Dan : > Geez! I thought you meant something even more basic like washing > and? not looking like you just rolled out of bed. > ? > Regards, > ? > Dan > > > ________________________________ > From: "natasha at natasha.cc" > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:36 PM > Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math > > > It has to do with style.? Lipstick is not an issue. > Quoting BillK : > >> 2011/10/17 spike : >>> >>> Hmmm, define this obscure term ?grooming? please? >> >> I think it has to do with the shade of lipstick you wear and making >> sure your clothing is color co-ordinated. >> >> >> :) >> >> BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Mon Oct 17 21:42:13 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:42:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> A quick little check using Google Translate (so do not expect any scientific quality) of the story Eugene posted, where I translated it into different languages and checked the number of words and characters in the translation. In the case of Chinese, Japanese and Thai I used the translitterated versions since Word's wordcount didn't notice the word boundaries properly (and besides, ideographic characters are cheating :-) Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Chinese (traditional, translitterated): 805 words, 3,604 characters Czech: 722 words, 3,782 characters English: 845 words, 4083 characters Finnish: 615 words, 3,969 characters French: 905 words, 5,473 characters German: 805 words, 4,636 characters Icelandic: 787 words, 3,967 characters Italian: 871 words, 4,410 characters. Japanese (translitterated): 988 words, 4,542 characters Latin: 644 words, 3593 characters Hindi: 952 words, 3,597 characters Hebrew: 674 words, 2,935 characters Russian: 725 words, 4,158 characters Swedish: 777 words, 3,930 characters Swahili: 798 words, 4,193 characters Tamil: 663 words, 4,481 characters Thai (translitterated): 1,020 words, 4927 characters Vietnamese: 1,146 words, 3,937 characters Welsh: 938 words, 4,220 characters This is of course not even close to the information measure used in the original paper it refers to. Still, we can see some fun stuff. Vietnamese used the most words but had a fairly average number of characters. French used the most characters but had a fairly average number of words. Swedish, Icelandic and English are close to the center of the distribution. Hebrew had fairly few words and short text - possibly because wovels were left out. Finnish used the least words, to nobodys surprise :-) Tamil used the longest average words, 6.7 characters, and Vietnamese had the shortest, 3.4 characters. So in terms of saving space, write in Hebrew. Incidentally, the article referenced was this: Fran?ois Pellegrino, Christophe Coup?, Egidio Marsico, /Across-Language Perspective on Speech Information Rate, /Language - Volume 87, Number 3, September 2011, pp. 539-558 - I HATE when newspapers do not even give a hint where the studies they misinterpret come from. In this case they didn't even mention the researchers by name. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 18 00:10:59 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:10:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <047c01cc8d2a$6b12aa70$4137ff50$@att.net> >> Geez! I thought you meant something even more basic like washing and not looking like you just rolled out of bed. Dan I can do clean. Not sure about the rest of it, but clean I can do. >. On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc >.Cheat Sheet: >.Question: You have to select a style between a Tom Ford and Henry Ford, which to you select? >.Answer: Tom Ford Hmm, bad example perhaps. Most geeks practically worship Henry Ford, a proto-geek. Never heard of Tom Ford. >.Question: You are going to a Humanity+ @ or Singularity Summit. What do you wear? >.Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and black shoes (Puma or Oaklay ok, but no sneakers!) I have been to a number of these events, but I couldn't tell you what colors anyone was wearing. I'm pretty sure they didn't know what colors I was wearing either. Most engineers don't really see in color anyway. Colors represent numbers, in the following order: black brown red orange yellow green blue purple gray white, representing the digits 0 through 9, and silver means +/- 10%, gold means +/- 5% and that's all you really need to know about color. >.Question: Your hair needs combing, what do you do? >.Answer: Spike it. Ummmm, OK. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 18 00:28:05 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:28:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> Message-ID: <049801cc8d2c$cdff7490$69fe5db0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg >Subject: Re: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? >...A quick little check using Google Translate (so do not expect any scientific quality) of the story Eugene posted...: >...Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Chinese (traditional, translitterated): 805 words, 3,604 characters Czech: 722 words, 3,782 characters English: 845 words, 4083 characters Finnish: 615 words, 3,969 characters French: 905 words, 5,473 characters German: 805 words, 4,636 characters Icelandic: 787 words, 3,967 characters Italian: 871 words, 4,410 characters. Japanese (translitterated): 988 words, 4,542 characters Latin: 644 words, 3593 characters Hindi: 952 words, 3,597 characters Hebrew: 674 words, 2,935 characters Russian: 725 words, 4,158 characters Swedish: 777 words, 3,930 characters Swahili: 798 words, 4,193 characters Tamil: 663 words, 4,481 characters Thai (translitterated): 1,020 words, 4927 characters Vietnamese: 1,146 words, 3,937 characters Welsh: 938 words, 4,220 characters Here?s my contribution to Anders' experiment. I sorted by words, then by characters. By words: Finnish: 615 words, 3,969 characters Latin: 644 words, 3,593 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Tamil: 663 words, 4,481 characters Hebrew: 674 words, 2,935 characters Czech: 722 words, 3,782 characters Russian: 725 words, 4,158 characters Swedish: 777 words, 3,930 characters Icelandic: 787 words, 3,967 characters Swahili: 798 words, 4,193 characters Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Chinese (traditional, translitterated): 805 words, 3,604 characters German: 805 words, 4,636 characters English: 845 words, 4,083 characters Italian: 871 words, 4,410 characters. French: 905 words, 5,473 characters Welsh: 938 words, 4,220 characters Hindi: 952 words, 3,597 characters Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters Japanese (translitterated): 988 words, 4,542 characters Thai (translitterated): 1,020 words, 4,927 characters Vietnamese: 1,146 words, 3,937 characters By characters: Hebrew: 674 words, 2,935 characters Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Latin: 644 words, 3,593 characters Hindi: 952 words, 3,597 characters Chinese (traditional, translitterated): 805 words, 3,604 characters Czech: 722 words, 3,782 characters Swedish: 777 words, 3,930 characters Vietnamese: 1,146 words, 3,937 characters Icelandic: 787 words, 3,967 characters Finnish: 615 words, 3,969 characters English: 845 words, 4,083 characters Russian: 725 words, 4,158 characters Swahili: 798 words, 4,193 characters Welsh: 938 words, 4,220 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Italian: 871 words, 4,410 characters. Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters Tamil: 663 words, 4,481 characters Japanese (translitterated): 988 words, 4,542 characters German: 805 words, 4,636 characters Thai (translitterated): 1,020 words, 4,927 characters French: 905 words, 5,473 characters spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ismirth at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 00:46:21 2011 From: ismirth at gmail.com (Isabelle Hakala) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:46:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <049801cc8d2c$cdff7490$69fe5db0$@att.net> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> <049801cc8d2c$cdff7490$69fe5db0$@att.net> Message-ID: I only translated the first 2 paragraphs to ASL but it was only 40 signs. Just in case anyone was interested. There is no good way to translate it other than by human. If someone really wants me to do the entire thing, I will, and I will annotate it. On Oct 17, 2011 5:42 PM, "spike" wrote: >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg >Subject: Re: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? ** ** >...A quick little check using Google Translate (so do not expect any scientific quality) of the story Eugene posted...:**** ** ** >...Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters**** Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Chinese (traditional, tr... Here?s my contribution to Anders' experiment. I sorted by words, then by characters.**** ** ** By words:**** ** ** Finnish:**** 615**** words,**** 3,969**** characters**** Latin:**** 644**** words,**** 3,593**** characters**** Basque:**** 647**** words,**** 4,221**** characters**** Tamil:**** 663**** words,**** 4,481**** characters**** Hebrew:**** 674**** words,**** 2,935**** characters**** Czech:**** 722**** words,**** 3,782**** characters**** Russian:**** 725**** words,**** 4,158**** characters**** Swedish:**** 777**** words,**** 3,930**** characters**** Icelandic:**** 787**** words,**** 3,967**** characters**** Swahili:**** 798**** words,**** 4,193**** characters**** Arabic:**** 799**** words,**** 3,420**** characters**** Chinese (traditional, translitterated):**** 805**** words,**** 3,604**** characters**** German:**** 805**** words,**** 4,636**** characters**** English:**** 845**** words,**** 4,083**** characters**** Italian:**** 871**** words,**** 4,410**** characters.**** French:**** 905**** words,**** 5,473**** characters**** Welsh:**** 938**** words,**** 4,220**** characters**** Hindi:**** 952**** words,**** 3,597**** characters**** Albanian:**** 958**** words,**** 4,425**** characters**** Japanese (translitterated):**** 988**** words,**** 4,542**** characters**** Thai (translitterated):**** 1,020**** words,**** 4,927**** characters**** Vietnamese:**** 1,146**** words,**** 3,937**** characters**** ** ** ** ** ** ** By characters:**** ** ** Hebrew:**** 674**** words,**** 2,935**** characters**** Arabic:**** 799**** words,**** 3,420**** characters**** Latin:**** 644**** words,**** 3,593**** characters**** Hindi:**** 952**** words,**** 3,597**** characters**** Chinese (traditional, translitterated):**** 805**** words,**** 3,604**** characters**** Czech:**** 722**** words,**** 3,782**** characters**** Swedish:**** 777**** words,**** 3,930**** characters**** Vietnamese:**** 1,146**** words,**** 3,937**** characters**** Icelandic:**** 787**** words,**** 3,967**** characters**** Finnish:**** 615**** words,**** 3,969**** characters**** English:**** 845**** words,**** 4,083**** characters**** Russian:**** 725**** words,**** 4,158**** characters**** Swahili:**** 798**** words,**** 4,193**** characters**** Welsh:**** 938**** words,**** 4,220**** characters**** Basque:**** 647**** words,**** 4,221**** characters**** Italian:**** 871**** words,**** 4,410**** characters.**** Albanian:**** 958**** words,**** 4,425**** characters**** Tamil:**** 663**** words,**** 4,481**** characters**** Japanese (translitterated):**** 988**** words,**** 4,542**** characters**** German:**** 805**** words,**** 4,636**** characters**** Thai (translitterated):**** 1,020**** words,**** 4,927**** characters**** French:**** 905**** words,**** 5,473**** characters**** ** ** ** ** spike**** _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Oct 18 00:46:36 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:46:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <047c01cc8d2a$6b12aa70$4137ff50$@att.net> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> <047c01cc8d2a$6b12aa70$4137ff50$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111017204636.43sp58sp44ok8kg0@webmail.natasha.cc> Heh :-) No excuses.?Style is easy, just get all black.?(But please? do not?become a postmodernist blunderblablabla.) Quoting spike : > > >>> Geez! I thought you meant something even more basic like washing and not > looking like you just rolled out of bed.? Dan > > > > I can do clean.? Not sure about the rest of it, but clean I can do. > > > >> . On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc > > > >> .Cheat Sheet: > >> .Question: You have to select a style between a Tom Ford and Henry Ford, > which to you select? >> .Answer: Tom Ford > > Hmm, bad example perhaps.? Most geeks practically worship Henry Ford, a > proto-geek.? Never heard of Tom Ford. > >> .Question: You are going to a Humanity+ @ or Singularity Summit. What do > you wear? >> .Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and black shoes (Puma or Oaklay > ok, but no sneakers!) > > I have been to a number of these events, but I couldn't tell you what colors > anyone was wearing.? I'm pretty sure they didn't know what colors I was > wearing either.? Most engineers don't really see in color anyway.? Colors > represent numbers, in the following order: black brown red orange yellow > green blue purple gray white, representing the digits 0 through 9, and > silver means +/- 10%, gold means +/- 5% and that's all you really need to > know about color. > >> .Question: Your hair needs combing, what do you do? >> .Answer: Spike it. > > Ummmm, OK. > > spike > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 18 01:33:53 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:33:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> <049801cc8d2c$cdff7490$69fe5db0$@att.net> Message-ID: <04de01cc8d35$ff59f390$fe0ddab0$@att.net> >. Behalf Of Isabelle Hakala Subject: Re: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? I only translated the first 2 paragraphs to ASL but it was only 40 signs. Just in case anyone was interested. There is no good way to translate it other than by human. Isabelle Cool, that sounds like a challenge. We figure out how to get a seventh generation game console with movement sensor, such as the Xbox 360 or a Sony PlayStation 3 to watch someone do ASL signs and translate it into text. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_video_game_consoles_(seventh_generat ion) Then use Windows Media Center graphics to translate text into ASL. I already knew what an Xbox360, a Wii and a PS3 are. Oh my, am I a hipster hepcat or what? I am so with the mod scene, man. spike If someone really wants me to do the entire thing, I will, and I will annotate it. On Oct 17, 2011 5:42 PM, "spike" wrote: >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg >Subject: Re: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? >...A quick little check using Google Translate (so do not expect any scientific quality) of the story Eugene posted...: >...Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Chinese (traditional, tr... Here's my contribution to Anders' experiment. I sorted by words, then by characters. By words: Finnish: 615 words, 3,969 characters Latin: 644 words, 3,593 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Tamil: 663 words, 4,481 characters Hebrew: 674 words, 2,935 characters Czech: 722 words, 3,782 characters Russian: 725 words, 4,158 characters Swedish: 777 words, 3,930 characters Icelandic: 787 words, 3,967 characters Swahili: 798 words, 4,193 characters Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Chinese (traditional, translitterated): 805 words, 3,604 characters German: 805 words, 4,636 characters English: 845 words, 4,083 characters Italian: 871 words, 4,410 characters. French: 905 words, 5,473 characters Welsh: 938 words, 4,220 characters Hindi: 952 words, 3,597 characters Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters Japanese (translitterated): 988 words, 4,542 characters Thai (translitterated): 1,020 words, 4,927 characters Vietnamese: 1,146 words, 3,937 characters By characters: Hebrew: 674 words, 2,935 characters Arabic: 799 words, 3,420 characters Latin: 644 words, 3,593 characters Hindi: 952 words, 3,597 characters Chinese (traditional, translitterated): 805 words, 3,604 characters Czech: 722 words, 3,782 characters Swedish: 777 words, 3,930 characters Vietnamese: 1,146 words, 3,937 characters Icelandic: 787 words, 3,967 characters Finnish: 615 words, 3,969 characters English: 845 words, 4,083 characters Russian: 725 words, 4,158 characters Swahili: 798 words, 4,193 characters Welsh: 938 words, 4,220 characters Basque: 647 words, 4,221 characters Italian: 871 words, 4,410 characters. Albanian: 958 words, 4,425 characters Tamil: 663 words, 4,481 characters Japanese (translitterated): 988 words, 4,542 characters German: 805 words, 4,636 characters Thai (translitterated): 1,020 words, 4,927 characters French: 905 words, 5,473 characters spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ismirth at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 01:54:51 2011 From: ismirth at gmail.com (Isabelle Hakala) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:54:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <04de01cc8d35$ff59f390$fe0ddab0$@att.net> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> <049801cc8d2c$cdff7490$69fe5db0$@att.net> <04de01cc8d35$ff59f390$fe0ddab0$@att.net> Message-ID: @spike that would be a brilliant way to do it, and you would probably have to employ an AI to do it, so someone should get right on that;) if that tech existed and was accurate, that would mindblowing. ASL is very abstract though so I doubt we could do it with our current level of processing. On Oct 17, 2011 6:47 PM, "spike" wrote: ** ** ** ** *>? Behalf Of *Isabelle Hakala Subject: Re: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? ** ** I only translated the first 2 paragraphs to ASL but it was only 40 signs. Just in case anyone was interested. There is no good way to translate it other than by human? Isabelle **** ** ** Cool, that sounds like a challenge. We figure out how to get a seventh generation game console with movement sensor, such as the Xbox 360 or a Sony PlayStation 3 to watch someone do ASL signs and translate it into text.**** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_video_game_consoles_(seventh_generation) **** Then use Windows Media Center graphics to translate text into ASL.**** I already knew what an Xbox360, a Wii and a PS3 are. Oh my, am I a hipster hepcat or what? I am so with the mod scene, man.**** spike**** If someone really wants me to do the entire thing, I will, and I will anno... _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Tue Oct 18 02:45:32 2011 From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:45:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <4E9CE84C.8040809@canonizer.com> Spike and Natasha, You could probably find a definition of grooming in wikipedia, right? I plan on making an app for that - to tell me, quantitatively, if I need grooming or not, so I never have to waste time on unnecessary over grooming. Then you wouldn't have to teach grooming to anyone, they could all just use the app to tell them what is required. Brent On 10/17/2011 12:08 PM, spike wrote: > > *On Behalf Of *natasha at natasha.cc > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math > > >...It would be hilarious to see nerds being asked if they > think grooming is important to teach children. > > Hmmm, define this obscure term "grooming" please? > > {8^D > > s > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Oct 18 11:49:59 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:49:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <4E9CE84C.8040809@canonizer.com> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <4E9CE84C.8040809@canonizer.com> Message-ID: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 08:45:32PM -0600, Brent Allsop wrote: > > Spike and Natasha, > > You could probably find a definition of grooming in wikipedia, right? > > I plan on making an app for that - to tell me, quantitatively, if I > need grooming or not, so I never have to waste time on unnecessary over > grooming. Then you wouldn't have to teach grooming to anyone, they > could all just use the app to tell them what is required. http://apina.biz/2066.jpg From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Oct 18 14:08:21 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:08:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <4E9CE84C.8040809@canonizer.com> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net><20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc><03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <4E9CE84C.8040809@canonizer.com> Message-ID: <30065A1F53314E208CE099F801097FDD@DFC68LF1> Maybe you can pick up som tips from Manscaping: http://www.maurilioamorim.com/2011/07/manscaping-a-mans-basic-grooming/ or the famed grooming and style rescue Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmKhPcFMTgo :-) Natasha Natasha Vita-More Chair, Humanity+ PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK Co-Editor, The Transhumanist Reader _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brent Allsop Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:46 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math Spike and Natasha, You could probably find a definition of grooming in wikipedia, right? I plan on making an app for that - to tell me, quantitatively, if I need grooming or not, so I never have to waste time on unnecessary over grooming. Then you wouldn't have to teach grooming to anyone, they could all just use the app to tell them what is required. Brent On 10/17/2011 12:08 PM, spike wrote: On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math >.It would be hilarious to see nerds being asked if they think grooming is important to teach children. Hmmm, define this obscure term "grooming" please? {8^D s _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Oct 18 14:12:23 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:12:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net><20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc><03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net><4E9CE84C.8040809@canonizer.com> <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: http://apina.biz/2066.jpg _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Tue Oct 18 15:06:51 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:06:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 09:12:23AM -0500, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > it-talking-on-a-cell-phone.html> > > > > http://apina.biz/2066.jpg That particular ursine belongs to the family of http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 16:36:22 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <1318955782.57597.YahooMailNeo@web160611.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've never been to Comic Con. :) ? Regards, ? Dan ________________________________ From: "natasha at natasha.cc" To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math Cheat Sheet: Question: You have to select a style between a Tom Ford and Henry Ford, which to you select? Answer: Tom Ford Question: You are going to a dinner and cocktail reception. What colors do you wear? Answer: Black slacks, black leather jacket, black silk t-shirt, black socks and black shoes (preferably shinned) Question: You are going to Comic Con, what do you wear? Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and sandals (no socks!) Question: You are going to a Humanity+ @ or Singularity Summit. What do you wear? Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and black shoes (Puma or Oaklay ok, but no sneakers!) Question: Your hair needs combing, what do you do? Answer: Spike it. Quoting Dan : > Geez! I thought you meant something even more basic like washing and? > not looking like you just rolled out of bed. > ? > Regards, > ? > Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 16:51:01 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity Message-ID: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dark Matter Mystery Deepens ? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111017124344.htm ? It has already been shown that impossible statistical mechanics is?required for dark matter to work to fix General Relativity in spiral galaxies.? Now another even "more impossible" set of statistical mechanics is required for General Relativity to be fixed by dark matter as?you move from one type of galaxy to another. ? General Relativity is the basis for the Big Bang theory and all of orthodox cosmology.? Orthodoxy?will not readily admit the need for a replacement without it already being in place.? Can't leave a vacuum :-) after all. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 16:51:49 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111017204636.43sp58sp44ok8kg0@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> <047c01cc8d2a$6b12aa70$4137ff50$@att.net> <20111017204636.43sp58sp44ok8kg0@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <1318956709.361.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Be different! Use some aubergine in there too. :) (True confession: I almost never wear all black.) Surely, you jest with the all black thing though... Or do you? ? Regards, ? Dan ________________________________ From: "natasha at natasha.cc" To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math Heh :-) No excuses.?Style is easy, just get all black.?(But please? do not?become a postmodernist blunderblablabla.) Quoting spike : >>> Geez! I thought you meant something even more basic like washing and not > looking like you just rolled out of bed.? Dan > > I can do clean.? Not sure about the rest of it, but clean I can do. > >> . On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc > > > >> .Cheat Sheet: > >> .Question: You have to select a style between a Tom Ford and Henry Ford, > which to you select? >> .Answer: Tom Ford > > Hmm, bad example perhaps.? Most geeks practically worship Henry Ford, a > proto-geek.? Never heard of Tom Ford. > >> .Question: You are going to a Humanity+ @ or Singularity Summit. What do > you wear? >> .Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and black shoes (Puma or Oaklay > ok, but no sneakers!) > > I have been to a number of these events, but I couldn't tell you what colors > anyone was wearing.? I'm pretty sure they didn't know what colors I was > wearing either.? Most engineers don't really see in color anyway.? Colors > represent numbers, in the following order: black brown red orange yellow > green blue purple gray white, representing the digits 0 through 9, and > silver means +/- 10%, gold means +/- 5% and that's all you really need to > know about color. > >> .Question: Your hair needs combing, what do you do? >> .Answer: Spike it. > > Ummmm, OK. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 17:30:29 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 19:30:29 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Relativistic Uploads In-Reply-To: <1318846982.19425.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318846982.19425.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2011 12:23, The Avantguardian wrote: > I have a thought pertaining to the oft argued idea that space travel would > be unpopular with posthumans because of subjective time slowing down to due > to the higher clockspeed of a solid state substrate. > The only obvious scenarios for slowing down or suspending one's mental time (say, sleep, hypnosis, etc.) are: - boredom; - as a byproduct of a procedure aimed at keeping you alive for a time in the future. Provided that neither is applicable, It has always been very unclear to me why we should strive to increase our mental speed on earth and would deliberately reduce it elsewhere, including during travels... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 17:45:30 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity In-Reply-To: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318959930.35410.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I thought there was a GTR with no exotic dark matter solution relying merely on doing the math more elaborately -- rather than making huge simplifying assumptions. I recall some work on this a few years ago, but forget just where. (Mind you, I wasn't checking the equations -- merely reading some summary in one of the journals...) ? Regards, ? Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Oct 18 18:10:13 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:10:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <1318956709.361.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <038c01cc8ce5$083bd4c0$18b37e40$@att.net> <20111017121835.pngkn9pqpq840skc@webmail.natasha.cc> <03b101cc8cf7$b585d740$209185c0$@att.net> <20111017153647.vuvhnao14o408gwo@webmail.natasha.cc> <1318882959.48889.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20111017172123.94tsu6x90k4sok44@webmail.natasha.cc> <047c01cc8d2a$6b12aa70$4137ff50$@att.net> <20111017204636.43sp58sp44ok8kg0@webmail.natasha.cc> <1318956709.361.YahooMailNeo@web160609.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111018141013.axfh5eaoocccss4c@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Dan : > Be different! Use some aubergine in there too. :) (True confession:? > I almost never wear all black.) Surely, you jest with the all black? > thing though... Or do you? Hello?? No, I'm not jesting.? Black is a classic look, easy and always looks smart. N > ? > Regards, > ? > Dan > > > ________________________________ > From: "natasha at natasha.cc" > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 8:46 PM > Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math > > > Heh :-) No excuses.?Style is easy, just get all black.?(But please?? > do not?become a postmodernist blunderblablabla.) > Quoting spike : > >>>> Geez! I thought you meant something even more basic like washing and not >> looking like you just rolled out of bed.? Dan >> >> I can do clean.? Not sure about the rest of it, but clean I can do. >> >>> . On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc >> >> >> >>> .Cheat Sheet: >> >>> .Question: You have to select a style between a Tom Ford and Henry Ford, >> which to you select? >>> .Answer: Tom Ford >> >> Hmm, bad example perhaps.? Most geeks practically worship Henry Ford, a >> proto-geek.? Never heard of Tom Ford. >> >>> .Question: You are going to a Humanity+ @ or Singularity Summit. What do >> you wear? >>> .Answer: Black jeans, black cotton t-shirt and black shoes (Puma or Oaklay >> ok, but no sneakers!) >> >> I have been to a number of these events, but I couldn't tell you what colors >> anyone was wearing.? I'm pretty sure they didn't know what colors I was >> wearing either.? Most engineers don't really see in color anyway.? Colors >> represent numbers, in the following order: black brown red orange yellow >> green blue purple gray white, representing the digits 0 through 9, and >> silver means +/- 10%, gold means +/- 5% and that's all you really need to >> know about color. >> >>> .Question: Your hair needs combing, what do you do? >>> .Answer: Spike it. >> >> Ummmm, OK. >> >> spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Oct 18 18:13:53 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:13:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Eugen Leitl : > > That particular ursine belongs to the family of > > http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg[1] who?just happens to?be?smitten with http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp[2] Links: ------ [1] http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg [2] http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 18:11:33 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity In-Reply-To: <1318959930.35410.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318959930.35410.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318961493.23020.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dan Ust wrote: > I thought there was a GTR with no exotic dark matter solution > relying merely on doing the math more elaborately -- rather than > making huge simplifying assumptions. I recall some work on this > a few years ago, but forget just where. (Mind you, I wasn't checking > the equations -- merely reading some summary in one of the journals...) ? I am not aware of any GTR solution for galaxy structure without dark matter to fix the wrong results. Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:33:48 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 19:33:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity In-Reply-To: <1318961493.23020.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318959930.35410.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1318961493.23020.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/18 Dennis May wrote: > I am not aware of any GTR solution for galaxy structure without dark matter > to fix the wrong results. > > Unfortunately the alternatives to GTR produce a few right results and get wrong all the many results that GTR gets right. Pity we don't know everything yet. BillK From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 18 18:48:01 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:48:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity In-Reply-To: References: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318959930.35410.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1318961493.23020.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01cc8dc6$76c2ca20$64485e60$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK ... >...Unfortunately the alternatives to GTR produce a few right results and get wrong all the many results that GTR gets right. >Pity we don't know everything yet. BillK Whaddya, some kind of denialist? Al Gore assures us that the science is settled, that the scientific community is all with the consensus. {8^] Ja, there's still plenty of physics that we don't understand. For astronomy types, you don't even need to stay up late at night or get up way before dawn on a cold fall morning. We have a star right nearby that keeps doing things that thrill and amaze us. After all these solar cycles, we still don't have a good way of predicting the next cycle, or even a really good reason why those cycles happen every approximately 11 to 12 years. That in itself is amazing as all hell when you ponder it. 11 years doesn't really correspond to any natural frequency that I can see. Here's a good URL for you sunspot and 10.7 cm fans: http://spaceweather.com/ spike From dennislmay at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 18:50:04 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity In-Reply-To: References: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318959930.35410.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1318961493.23020.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318963804.8979.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I wrote: > I am not aware of any GTR solution for galaxy structure without dark matter > to fix the wrong results. ? Bill K wrote: ? > Unfortunately the alternatives to GTR produce a few right results and > get wrong all the many results that GTR gets right. ? I would be happy with an admission that?there is a?problem that tinkering and fudge factors like dark matter are not?going to fix. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Oct 18 19:53:59 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:53:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity In-Reply-To: References: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1318959930.35410.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1318961493.23020.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111018195359.GL25711@leitl.org> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 07:33:48PM +0100, BillK wrote: > 2011/10/18 Dennis May wrote: > > I am not aware of any GTR solution for galaxy structure without dark matter > > to fix the wrong results. > > > > > > > Unfortunately the alternatives to GTR produce a few right results and > get wrong all the many results that GTR gets right. > > Pity we don't know everything yet. While speaking of dark matter http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/10/dark-matter-mysterious/ Dark Matter: Now More Mysterious Than Ever By Adam Mann Email Author October 17, 2011 | 2:47 pm | Categories: Space Astronomers have one more reason to scratch their heads over the unseen material known as dark matter. Observations of two dwarf galaxies, Fornax and Sculptor, show the dark matter within them is spread out smoothly rather than heaped into a central bulge, contradicting cosmological models. Researchers know dark matter comprises a far greater percentage of the universe than the ordinary matter making up things like people and stars. Because of this, the distribution of dark matter determines the structure of the cosmos. Galaxies form when they are attracted to and anchored by large clumps of dark matter. The dwarf galaxies Fornax and Sculptor are themselves made of 99 percent dark matter and only 1 percent normal matter. It is impossible to directly see the dark matter but, by observing the rotation of stars around each galactic center, researchers can detect its influence and map out its distribution. While simulations suggest that the dark-matter density should increase sharply near the galactic centers, the recent observations found the dark matter spread relatively uniform throughout. Yet if these dwarf galaxies have no ?clump? in their center, then what is pinning them in place? Observations of other small galaxies have similarly failed to find a dense central dark matter core, a difficulty that has prompted astronomers to begin expanding their ideas on the mysterious substance. It is possible that dark matter might interact more with ordinary matter than currently thought, allowing the regular matter to stir up the dark matter and spread it out. Alternatively, dark matter might move faster than expected and therefore be less prone to clumping in galactic centers. Either case creates many further mysteries and problems for astronomers to keep mulling over. Image: ESO/Digitized Sky Survey 2 From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 20:31:29 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:31:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: On 10/18/11, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > > > Quoting Eugen Leitl : >> >> That particular ursine belongs to the family of >> >> http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg[1] > > who?just happens to?be?smitten with > > > http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp[2] > > Links: > ------ > [1] > http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg > [2] > http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp > > > From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 20:33:25 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:33:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: I love the line from the last woman. "I guess if other people want to learn math they should be able to, but then they'll be the type of people who know math..." John ; ) On 10/18/11, John Grigg wrote: > On 10/18/11, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: >> >> >> Quoting Eugen Leitl : >>> >>> That particular ursine belongs to the family of >>> >>> http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg[1] >> >> who?just happens to?be?smitten with >> >> >> http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp[2] >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] >> http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg >> [2] >> http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp >> >> >> > From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Oct 18 22:24:40 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:24:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20111018182440.4ur127aieoo08gco@webmail.natasha.cc> Psst ...?I was a beauty queen who flunked math. It wasn't because of a lack of interest in math,?it was because I could not see the?numbers accurately or configure them in my mind.? Bty, not everyone who have problems with this and realted skills are fricking beauty queens:? http://www.dyslexiaonline.com/famous/famous.htm[1] Quoting John Grigg : > I love the line from the last woman.? "I guess if other people want to > learn math they should be able to, but then they'll be the type of > people who know math..." > > John? ; ) > > On 10/18/11, John Grigg wrote: >> On 10/18/11, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: >>> >>> >>> ? ? Quoting Eugen Leitl : >>>> >>>> That particular ursine belongs to the family of >>>> >>>> http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg[1[2]] >>> >>> who?just happens to?be?smitten with >>> >>> >>> http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp[2[3]] >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] >>> http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg[4] >>> [2] >>> http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp[5] >>> >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[6] > Links: ------ [1] http://www.dyslexiaonline.com/famous/famous.htm [2] http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg[1 [3] http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp[2 [4] http://maxcdn.dravenstales.ch/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/online_predator.jpg [5] http://www.freakingnews.com/Keith-Richards-Beauty-Queen-Pictures-31231.asp [6] http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Oct 18 23:05:06 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:05:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <20111018182440.4ur127aieoo08gco@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111018182440.4ur127aieoo08gco@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <009101cc8dea$60ecff30$22c6fd90$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math Psst ... I was a beauty queen who flunked math. . Bty, not everyone who have problems with this and realted skills are fricking beauty queens: http://www.dyslexiaonline.com/famous/famous.htm Ja, and it works the other way too. In college if one dressed in geek costume, it was equivalent to claiming to be a math or engineering genius. Everyone knows you need to be brilliant in some technical field to legitimately dress retro-geek. But occasionally a classmate would know I sucked at some particular engineering or math skill, at which time one could lose status as an actual geek, and would then be expected to dress fashionably. Hey, it's the law. So if one walked into a room full of actual geeks dressed in geek attire (such as a calculator on the belt, horn-rim glasses and a pocket protector) the alpha geek might look at one's costume and comment: You are lying! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 00:36:27 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:36:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: <009101cc8dea$60ecff30$22c6fd90$@att.net> References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111018182440.4ur127aieoo08gco@webmail.natasha.cc> <009101cc8dea$60ecff30$22c6fd90$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike wrote: But occasionally a classmate would know I sucked at some particular engineering or math skill, at which time one could lose status as an actual geek, and would then be expected to dress fashionably. Hey, it?s the law. So if one walked into a room full of actual geeks dressed in geek attire (such as a calculator on the belt, horn-rim glasses and a pocket protector) the alpha geek might look at one?s costume and comment: You are lying! >>> The alpha geek at my college was fortunately a very kindly soul, who encouraged others, and reminded me of a young Professor Farnsworth from Futurama. I was told while still in school that he was seriously considering a position with the NSA as a codemaker and breaker. This guy was heavyweight smart and I heard (part of his legend) that his instructors would "joke" that if there were any questions, that they should be directed to him! lol I would suspect he is aware of this list. John On 10/18/11, spike wrote: > > >>. On Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc > Subject: Re: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math > > > > Psst ... I was a beauty queen who flunked math. . Bty, not everyone who > have problems with this and realted skills are fricking beauty queens: > > http://www.dyslexiaonline.com/famous/famous.htm > > > > > > Ja, and it works the other way too. In college if one dressed in geek > costume, it was equivalent to claiming to be a math or engineering genius. > Everyone knows you need to be brilliant in some technical field to > legitimately dress retro-geek. > > But occasionally a classmate would know I sucked at some particular > engineering or math skill, at which time one could lose status as an actual > geek, and would then be expected to dress fashionably. Hey, it's the law. > So if one walked into a room full of actual geeks dressed in geek attire > (such as a calculator on the belt, horn-rim glasses and a pocket protector) > the alpha geek might look at one's costume and comment: You are lying! > > spike > > From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 19 00:50:11 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:50:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] beauty queens offer opinions on math In-Reply-To: References: <20111018114959.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111018150651.GE25711@leitl.org> <20111018141353.8k05bo94204ssgco@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111018182440.4ur127aieoo08gco@webmail.natasha.cc> <009101cc8dea$60ecff30$22c6fd90$@att.net> Message-ID: <00fc01cc8df9$0eb57d50$2c2077f0$@att.net> Spike wrote: >...But occasionally a classmate would know I sucked at some particular engineering or math skill, at which time one could lose status as an actual geek, and would then be expected to dress fashionably. Hey, it's the law. So if one walked into a room full of actual geeks dressed in geek attire (such as a calculator on the belt, horn-rim glasses and a pocket protector) the alpha geek might look at one's costume and comment: You are lying! >>> >...The alpha geek at my college was fortunately a very kindly soul, who encouraged others, and reminded me of a young Professor Farnsworth from Futurama. I was told while still in school that he was seriously considering a position with the NSA as a codemaker and breaker. ...John Grigg At Lockheeed one of the top Alpha Geeks is the guy who invented the THAAD missile. Heavyweight smart, as Johnny Grigg would say. More than half the time, he used to come to work dressed in white shirt, white pants, white belt, no socks, white shoes and yellow tinted prescription sunglasses, which he wore always, even indoors. No one else dared to do that. If anyone else showed up at worked dressed head to foot in white, he would be considered arrogant and presumptuous, claiming to be equal to Dr. Bill. {8^D spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 11:45:43 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:45:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] What's the fastest language to speak? In-Reply-To: <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> References: <1318863504.55520.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20111017153124.GO25711@leitl.org> <20111017161659.GQ25711@leitl.org> <4E9CA135.6050904@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 17 October 2011 23:42, Anders Sandberg wrote: > (and besides, ideographic characters are cheating :-) Are they? As mentioned, in fast-reading contexts Japanese outperform western competitors. Apparently, the extra time spent to identify the Kanji concerned is not so long as that required to go through the entire (or partial, in Hebrew and Arabic and western stenography) phonetic representation of a word. So, this could legitimately described as a broader-band solution. Moreover, this might limit the inclination by the reader to waste time subvocalising what he reads - but here I really have no idea. OTOH, it is undeniably a longer and more painful process to learn how to read at any speed. As to the intrinsic "compactness" of the language irrespective of the visual or oral medium I still think that the endurance of formulaic Latin is eloquent as to its conciseness. "Video meliora, peiora sequor" ("I understand that better options may be available, but nevertheless I usually end up adopting inferior ones"). -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:16:59 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:16:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] More Trouble for General Relativity In-Reply-To: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318956661.37094.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/18 Dennis May : > General Relativity is the basis for the Big Bang theory and all > of orthodox cosmology.? Orthodoxy?will not readily admit the > need for a replacement without it already being in place.? Can't > leave a vacuum :-) after all. Personally, I have been a long-time fan of ekpyrotic models. For purely aesthetical reasons, I suppose. -- Stefano Vaj From amon at doctrinezero.com Wed Oct 19 12:25:59 2011 From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:25:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [DZ] H+ Flash Media Team In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dirk Bruere Date: 19 October 2011 13:14 Subject: [DZ] H+ Flash Media Team To: extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com, doctrinezero < doctrinezero at googlegroups.com> Can be found here: http://www.facebook.com/groups/218570128181012/ What it's about: http://www.facebook.com/groups/218570128181012/doc/246418008729557/ Join up and make a difference. Dirk -- Homepage: www.neopax.com/technomage - Technology and magick -- Doctrine Zero mailing list: http://groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZero -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 13:18:50 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Planet forming detected Message-ID: <1319030330.52362.YahooMailNeo@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-10-youngest-planet.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charlie.stross at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 18:25:58 2011 From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:25:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [tt] The Stars Are Not Too Far In-Reply-To: <20111014095009.GW25711@leitl.org> References: <20111013151802.GI25711@leitl.org> <20111014095009.GW25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <4E9F1636.9020401@gmail.com> On 14/10/2011 10:50, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 03:58:05PM +1100, ddraig wrote: >> Hey, Charlie, plug from Vernor Vinge - well done! > > Not sure Charles Stross still reads this list. Judging > from his blog he's far too busy for that. As it happens, I accidentally glanced at it just now (for the first time in a couple of weeks). Trouble is, the throughput here is too high for me to easily keep track of the high-volume threads. Plus, I'm trying to write another damn' posthuman space opera (sticking close to a rather whips'n'bondage extrapolation of future technology that *doesn't* encompass anything that requires messing with the laws of physics). Which tends to reduce my reading time. > The Children of the Sky is now out (I've just bought it via > Amazon Kindle for Android; Kindle for PC and Calibre will > get rid of the pesky DRM). I got it in manuscript from Vernor :-) -- Charlie From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 22:26:13 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:26:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Locking Message-ID: An experiment in levitation... http://io9.com/5850729/quantum-locking-will-blow-your-mind--but-how-does-it-work John From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 19 22:41:03 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:41:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Locking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a001cc8eb0$30bcf560$9236e020$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of John Grigg >...Subject: [ExI] Quantum Locking >...An experiment in levitation... http://io9.com/5850729/quantum-locking-will-blow-your-mind--but-how-does-it- work >John WOW definitely wicked cool Johnny, thanks man! spike From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 23:16:29 2011 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:16:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Locking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 6:26 PM, John Grigg wrote: > An experiment in levitation... > > http://io9.com/5850729/quantum-locking-will-blow-your-mind--but-how-does-it-work So the magnetic field keeps it afloat and the "holes" (for lack of high-precision terminology) act as magnetic-field rebar to provide stability? Is there a relationship between the distribution of the holes, the thickness of the wafer and the strength of the magnets? Instead of pushing, can the magnets pull together? What kind of "wires" might we have if they got stronger as current is applied? (I'm thinking specifically of alternative space elevator cables in case magnetic conduits are on the order of carbon nanotubes for production complexity) I don't know, just throwing out some ideas. I have no engineering legs upon which to stand :( From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 02:20:38 2011 From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:20:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? Message-ID: An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his debate with Peter Lawler last week: http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati Joseph From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 20 05:05:17 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:05:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] thrun and his autonomous golfcarts Message-ID: <004d01cc8ee5$dc7f7fa0$957e7ee0$@att.net> Sebastian Thrun is one of the Stanford guys who is giving the free AI class online. Here's what he's up to these days: http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/how-goog le-self-driving-car-works Here's my insight. We know that to get a really high mileage car, we would need to give up something, most likely acceleration. We love our Detroits that can accelerate at .7G, and will not stand for anything that cannot manage about .3G. But if we were along for the ride and not standing on the gas, we would perhaps tolerate much lower acceleration, which is what you get with a series hybrid. If we go with a series hybrid, we save a lot of weight, but they are not fast and they don't accelerate hard. But if we are reading a book or surfing the internet, we don't really care that much, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Oct 20 05:21:53 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:21:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Joseph Bloch wrote: > An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his > debate with Peter Lawler last week: > > http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati > Similar themes came up in my debate yesterday evening at the Manchester University student union, where I was debating David king from Human Genetics Alert. He argued (from a pretty leftist standpoint) that enhancement embodies the ideal of capitalism and since capitalism is bad for human value and diversity hence most enhancement is bad. As he saw it, western liberal individualism promotes uniformization in respect to the market. I argued that the fact that his claim already disproves itself: we live in a society where diversity is highly valued - if it wasn't we couldn't care less if enhancement reduced it. The coerciveness of enhancement is like the coerciveness of fitting into existing culture: there are plenty of things to be concerned with, but we do have plenty of freedom *in liberal individualistic open societies* to try to change them. Best line from King: "You can tell that the previous two speakers are bioethicists, since they were constantly using the word 'we'" - he has a point. Ethicists tend to assume there is a big set of ethical humans who we all belong to who try to act right. King seemed to assume that most problems were due to an unseen 'they' group responsible for most bad things, but conveniently forgot that his own reasoning suggested most of the problems he saw with enhancement was due to the social organisation of society - us. Now off to London to talk ethics of brain interfaces and do a BBC interview on enhancers... ah, the life of the jetset (or rather, train-set) bioethicist! ;-) -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 06:46:44 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:46:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: Anders Sandberg wrote: Now off to London to talk ethics of brain interfaces and do a BBC interview on enhancers... ah, the life of the jetset (or rather, train-set) bioethicist! ;-) >>> Beautiful and intelligent women surrounding you constantly, all you can eat gourmet conference buffets, thrilling intellectual debates with your arch-nemesis, travel in comfortable and speedy trains, walks along historical university campuses, why, you could be a character out of Venture Brothers! All you are missing is a massive bodyguard, your own personal jet, and an out of date research compound. John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 09:54:31 2011 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 02:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <1319104471.88527.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anders Sandberg > To: ExI chat list > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 10:21 PM > Subject: Re: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? > > Joseph Bloch wrote: >> An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his >> debate with Peter Lawler last week: >> >> http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati >> ? > Similar themes came up in my debate yesterday evening at the Manchester > University student union, where I was debating David king from Human Genetics > Alert. He argued (from a pretty leftist standpoint) that enhancement embodies > the ideal of capitalism and since capitalism is bad for human value and > diversity hence most enhancement is bad. As he saw it, western liberal > individualism promotes uniformization in respect to the market. I argued that > the fact that his claim already disproves itself: we live in a society where > diversity is highly valued - if it wasn't we couldn't care less if > enhancement reduced it. The coerciveness of enhancement is like the coerciveness > of fitting into existing culture: there are plenty of things to be concerned > with, but we do have plenty of freedom *in liberal individualistic open > societies* to try to change them. > The coerciveness of enhancement is the coerciveness of survival. It is no more unethically coercive than nature is. Nature whose floods force you to swim and whose lions force you to run. Bioconservatives want to handicap us in the Red Queen's Race because they don't have the vision to see that this comfortable modern environment that they have snugly ensconced themselves is by no means assured to continue indefinitely. They don't realize that an asteroid, a plague, or even simple social unrest can turn their world upside down in less than 24 hours. Perhaps the Donner Party debated ethics as they dined on their fallen comrades. In any case ethics never stopped breast implants so I doubt they will prevent a super soldier or other example of enhanced human in the next century or so. ? > Now off to London to talk ethics of brain interfaces and do a BBC interview on > enhancers... ah, the life of the jetset (or rather, train-set) bioethicist! ;-) ? Have fun. :-) BTW thanks for the cool data regarding my fastest language question. ? Stuart LaForge "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things bought and sold are legislators." - P. J. O'Rourke From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 20 13:05:40 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:05:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <008b01cc8f28$f7f9d170$e7ed7450$@att.net> . On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? Anders Sandberg wrote: >>>Now off to London to talk ethics of brain interfaces and do a BBC interview on enhancers... ah, the life of the jetset (or rather, train-set) bioethicist! ;-) >>> >.Beautiful and intelligent women surrounding you constantly, all you can eat gourmet conference buffets, thrilling intellectual debates with your arch-nemesis, travel in comfortable and speedy trains, walks along historical university campuses, why, you could be a character out of Venture Brothers! All you are missing is a massive bodyguard, your own personal jet, and an out of date research compound. John : ) John, Anders is reality version of Dr. Benton Quest. I mean the 1960s version, not the lame 1996 version with its supernatural nonsense. In the 1960s, Dr. Quest, Race Bannon and the boys used to do all kinds of cool politically incorrect stuff like have gunfights with the bad guys using real guns, and if that didn't work they could always land speedboats on them. Of course you and Anders are too young to be Jonny Quest hipsters, but there are worse things than being too young. {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 20 13:17:12 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:17:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <1319104471.88527.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <1319104471.88527.YahooMailNeo@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009001cc8f2a$95280c90$bf7825b0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian >...Bioconservatives want to handicap us ... an asteroid, a plague, or even simple social unrest can turn their world upside down in less than 24 hours...Stuart LaForge Ja. Something analogous to the Occupy Wall Street crowd could turn on transhumanism. The usual dissatisfied crowd finds an actual focus instead of their current aimlessness. (What do we want? No one knows! When do we want it? NOW!) In their case, they eventually decided the bad guy was the banker, but (for some mysterious reason) not the credit union guy. It is too easy for me to imagine the enraged crowd switching from "eat the rich" to "eat anyone over age 75." spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:00:19 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:00:19 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 07:21, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Joseph Bloch wrote: >> >> An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his >> debate with Peter Lawler last week: >> >> http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati > > Similar themes came up in my debate yesterday evening at the Manchester > University student union, where I was debating David king from Human > Genetics Alert. He argued (from a pretty leftist standpoint) that > enhancement embodies the ideal of capitalism and since capitalism is bad for > human value and diversity hence most enhancement is bad. As he saw it, > western liberal individualism promotes uniformization in respect to the > market. This is a quite interesting issue which I discussed at some length in the interview recently made available online in English at http://www.biopolitcs.com. The very idea that there would be social pressure, and actually a rush, towards the adoption of safe, unexpensive, painless enhancing, eugenic and life-extending technologies, and that laws increasingly difficult to enforce would have to be enacted not to make them "compulsory", but rather to prevent their spreading, is the best counter-argument in fact against the spectre of a overhumanist "totalitarism" with all the usual Hollywood, tear-inducing trappings. Intelligent anti-transhumanists, such as J?rgen Habermas, fully realise that, and seem ready to renounce values such as freedom, self-determination, involuntary-suffering avoidance and protection of human lives for the sake of humanism. This is of course a major tactical point, because I suppose that most of their constituencies and audiences are not equally ready to do so. That is, except for our friend Charles Stross, who appears on the same line to consider a Vile Offspring that which becomes too detached from its human origins. On the other hand, don't they really have a point, from an entirely different perspective? The idea that individual excellence is a capitalist value is of course stupid. Individual (and, for that matter, collective) excellence has always been, and still is, equally a goal of anti-capitalistic systems such as, eg, the late Democratic Republic of Germany in its efforts to achieve top placements in olympic sports. It is however true that globalised western capitalism might indeed involve a risk a loss of diversity across our species, given its ability to reduce, both socially and inter-culturally, the *plurality* of models of excellence and of value systems to a single normalised "Ken & Barbie" paradigm, where for instance a disproportionate importance is attributed to one's ability to accumulate exchange units, that is money, or rather empty status symbols, in comparison with other possibly desirable features and optimality views. But, besides the fact that the process is already in place irrespective of any possible accelerating technology, genetic engineering and other similar tools allow a much greater uniformisation as well as a much greater *diversification* of the humankind than it has traditionally been the case. It is not the technology the problem, but what we choose to do with it. There again, Habermas does not miss the point, coming of course to value judgments opposite to mine, when he warns against what he regards as the ?nightmare scenario? of a ?genetic communitarianism?, in which different cultures could carry forward a ?genetic self-optimization of mankind in different directions, thereby ending up jeopardising the unity of human nature as a basis with respect to which all men have until now been able to understand and mutually recognise each other as members of the same moral community? (*The Future of Human Nature*, Polity Press 2003). -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 20 17:36:26 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:36:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <20111020133626.bl4zwem6oco48c4s@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Stefano Vaj : > On 20 October 2011 07:21, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> Joseph Bloch wrote: >>> >>> An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his >>> debate with Peter Lawler last week: >>> >>> http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati[1] >> >> Similar themes came up in my debate yesterday evening at the Manchester >> University student union, where I was debating David king from Human >> Genetics Alert. He argued (from a pretty leftist standpoint) that >> enhancement embodies the ideal of capitalism and since capitalism is bad > for >> human value and diversity hence most enhancement is bad. This is illogical.? Human enhancement is not based in capitalism and leftist means different things in different countries, not to mention that leftism in and of itself is contradictory. >>As he saw it, >> western liberal individualism promotes uniformization in respect to the >> market. Frankly, I tire of western liberal individualism because it lacks individuation and postures to know what is best for everyone. That type of universalism is doomed from the get-go because its rhetoric is not based on insights into how people can obtain well-being for themselves, their families and their geographical locations. > This is a quite interesting issue which I discussed at some length in the > interview recently made available online in English at > http://www.biopolitcs.com[2]. > > The very idea that there would be social pressure, and actually a rush, > towards the adoption of safe, unexpensive, painless enhancing, eugenic and > life-extending technologies, and that laws increasingly difficult to enforce > would have to be enacted not to make them "compulsory", but rather to > prevent their spreading, is the best counter-argument in fact against the > spectre of a overhumanist "totalitarism" with all the usual Hollywood, > tear-inducing trappings. What?? This reads more like a salvo than an explanation of the idea.?Please rephrase. Thanks. > Intelligent anti-transhumanists, such as J?rgen Habermas, fully realise > that, and seem ready to renounce values such as freedom, self-determination, > involuntary-suffering avoidance and protection of human lives for the sake > ?of humanism. Yes, this sounds right. >This is of course a major tactical point, because I suppose > that most of their constituencies and audiences are not equally ready to do > so. That is, except for our friend Charles Stross, who appears on the same > line to consider a Vile Offspring that which becomes too detached from its > human origins. This does not sound like a friend to me.? It sounds more like a SF writer who is causing hyperbole and fear to sell books. > On the other hand, don't they really have a point, from an entirely > different perspective? > > The idea that individual excellence is a capitalist value is of course > stupid. Yes. Right. > Individual (and, for that matter, collective) excellence has always been, > and still is, equally a goal of anti-capitalistic systems such as, eg, the > late Democratic Republic of Germany in its efforts to achieve top placements > in olympic sports. I don't know about this. > It is however true that globalised western capitalism might indeed involve a > risk a loss of diversity across our species, given its ability to reduce, > both socially and inter-culturally, the *plurality* of models of excellence > and of value systems to a single normalised "Ken & Barbie" paradigm, where > for instance a? disproportionate importance is attributed to one's ability > to accumulate exchange units, that is money, or rather empty status symbols, > in comparison with other possibly desirable features and optimality views. > > But, besides the fact that the process is already in place irrespective of > any possible accelerating technology, genetic engineering and other similar > tools allow a much greater uniformisation as well as a much greater > *diversification* of the humankind than it has traditionally been the case. > It is not the technology the problem, but what we choose to do with it. > > There again, Habermas does not miss the point, coming of course to value > judgments opposite to mine, when he warns against what he regards as the > ?nightmare scenario? of a ?genetic communitarianism?, in which different > cultures could carry forward a ?genetic self-optimization of mankind in > different directions, thereby ending up jeopardising the unity of human > nature as a basis with respect to which all men have until now been able to > understand and mutually recognise each other as members of the same moral > community? (*The Future of Human Nature*, Polity Press 2003). Perhaps Habermas has read too much SF and horror stories.? This opinion lacks critical analysis.? What we need more than anything is to discuss the issues without having to resort to the singularity, existential risk, doomsday arguments, simulation scenarios, etc. and just discuss the future as a matter of fact, look ardently at the issues, the discourse, the dialectics, and form some opinions that are balanced and insightful. That is what transhumanism needs. Again, that is what transhumanism needs. Natasha Links: ------ [1] http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati [2] http://www.biopolitcs.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 20 17:28:39 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:28:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <00dd01cc8f4d$b5c48230$214d8690$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj >.The idea that individual excellence is a capitalist value is of course stupid.-- Stefano Vaj Thanks Stefano. As an unrepentant minarcho-capitalist, I will gladly embrace the meme that individual excellence is excellence indeed. An excellent society is made of a collection of excellent individuals, even if some are more excellent than others. If other societies want to reject that notion, and assume that value is stupid, that is their right, it doesn't bother me a bit. {8-] spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kryonica at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:18:16 2011 From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:18:16 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: No, it is available at http://www.biopolitix.com On 20 Oct 2011, at 19:00, Stefano Vaj wrote: > This is a quite interesting issue which I discussed at some length in the interview recently made available online in English at http://www.biopolitcs.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:38:31 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:38:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: 2011/10/20 Kryonica > No, it is available at http://www.biopolitix.com > > > On 20 Oct 2011, at 19:00, Stefano Vaj wrote: > > This is a quite interesting issue which I discussed at some length in the > interview recently made available online in English at > http://www.biopolitcs.com. > > Right. Translators always know it best... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Thu Oct 20 18:05:35 2011 From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: Transhumanists, There is always going to be some small minority set of non expert transhumanism that advocate coercion, even of the military type. The huge anti transhumanist types are always going to way amplify and believe all that and lump us all in the same bucket, beyond anything we can counter, alone. The best way to fight this is to have explicit signed survey declarations, of the majority of expert transhumanists, so nobody can doubt that any ?coercive transhumanists? are only a few uneducated extremists the majority of expert transhumanists repudiate. The very goal of canonizer.com, is to find out what EVERYONE, including people that are still Luddites, wants, concisely and quantitatively. The more diversity the better. As many transhumanist as possible should point out that our goal is to first find out what everyone wants, and have all of that as our goal, never forcing or denying any of it for anyone. Brent Allsop On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Joseph Bloch wrote: >> >> An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his >> debate with Peter Lawler last week: >> >> http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati >> > > Similar themes came up in my debate yesterday evening at the Manchester > University student union, where I was debating David king from Human > Genetics Alert. He argued (from a pretty leftist standpoint) that > enhancement embodies the ideal of capitalism and since capitalism is bad for > human value and diversity hence most enhancement is bad. As he saw it, > western liberal individualism promotes uniformization in respect to the > market. I argued that the fact that his claim already disproves itself: we > live in a society where diversity is highly valued - if it wasn't we > couldn't care less if enhancement reduced it. The coerciveness of > enhancement is like the coerciveness of fitting into existing culture: there > are plenty of things to be concerned with, but we do have plenty of freedom > *in liberal individualistic open societies* to try to change them. > > Best line from King: "You can tell that the previous two speakers are > bioethicists, since they were constantly using the word 'we'" - he has a > point. Ethicists tend to assume there is a big set of ethical humans who we > all belong to who try to act right. King seemed to assume that most problems > were due to an unseen 'they' group responsible for most bad things, but > conveniently forgot that his own reasoning suggested most of the problems he > saw with enhancement was due to the social organisation of society - us. > > Now off to London to talk ethics of brain interfaces and do a BBC interview > on enhancers... ah, the life of the jetset (or rather, train-set) > bioethicist! ;-) > > -- > Anders Sandberg, > Future of Humanity Institute > Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 19:07:27 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:07:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111020133626.bl4zwem6oco48c4s@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020133626.bl4zwem6oco48c4s@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: 2011/10/20 > Quoting Stefano Vaj : > > > On 20 October 2011 07:21, Anders Sandberg wrote: > >> Joseph Bloch wrote: > >>> > >>> An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his > >>> debate with Peter Lawler last week: > >>> > >>> http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati > >> > >> Similar themes came up in my debate yesterday evening at the Manchester > >> University student union, where I was debating David king from Human > >> Genetics Alert. He argued (from a pretty leftist standpoint) that > >> enhancement embodies the ideal of capitalism and since capitalism is bad > > for > >> human value and diversity hence most enhancement is bad. > > This is illogical. Human enhancement is not based in capitalism and > leftist means different things in different countries, not to mention that > leftism in and of itself is contradictory. > Please note that this is not me, it is Anders. > >>As he saw it, > >> western liberal individualism promotes uniformization in respect to the > >> market. > > Frankly, I tire of western liberal individualism because it lacks > individuation and postures to know what is best for everyone. That type of > universalism is doomed from the get-go because its rhetoric is not based on > insights into how people can obtain well-being for themselves, their > families and their geographical locations. > I heartily agree. > This is a quite interesting issue which I discussed at some length in the > > interview recently made available online in English at > > http://www.biopolitcs.com. > > > > The very idea that there would be social pressure, and actually a rush, > > towards the adoption of safe, unexpensive, painless enhancing, eugenic > and > > life-extending technologies, and that laws increasingly difficult to > enforce > > would have to be enacted not to make them "compulsory", but rather to > > prevent their spreading, is the best counter-argument in fact against the > > spectre of a overhumanist "totalitarism" with all the usual Hollywood, > > tear-inducing trappings. > > What? This reads more like a salvo than an explanation of the idea. Please > rephrase. Thanks. > OK. Some people opposing enhancing/eugenic technologies imagine a world where some kind or other of police would impose you their adoption at the point of a gun. This is a very unpleasant idea. Now, if one posits that we would need laws, even though likely to have to be enforced at the point of a gun, to *prevent* their enforcement, all the unpleasantness goes to the bioluddite camp. > >This is of course a major tactical point, because I suppose > > that most of their constituencies and audiences are not equally ready to > do > > so. That is, except for our friend Charles Stross, who appears on the > same > > line to consider a Vile Offspring that which becomes too detached from > its > > human origins. > > This does not sound like a friend to me. It sounds more like a SF writer > who is causing hyperbole and fear to sell books. > I do not share much of the views that appear to emerge from his work, but I was simply being cordial to a fellow subscriber of this list. What we need more than anything is to discuss the issues without having to > resort to the singularity, existential risk, doomsday arguments, simulation > scenarios, etc. and just discuss the future as a matter of fact, look > ardently at the issues, the discourse, the dialectics, and form some > opinions that are balanced and insightful. That is what transhumanism needs. > Indeed. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 20:14:13 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:14:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 20:05, Brent Allsop wrote: > The best way to fight this is to have explicit signed survey > declarations, of the majority of expert transhumanists, so nobody can > doubt that any ?coercive transhumanists? are only a few uneducated > extremists the majority of expert transhumanists repudiate. But do they *exist* in the first place? Aren't you a little too quick in conceding this point? I would be hard pressed to find anybody actually advocating "coercive life-extension", or "coercive enhancement", eg. The closest thing I can imagine is those who resist deaf parents' wish to select deliberately deaf embryos through pre-implantation diagnosis. And while the jury may still be out on the subject I am not sure that the majority of "expert transhumanists" are ready to repudiate it without a second thought. -- Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 20 20:36:48 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:36:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <20111020163648.wq1ej31cg8ssowo4@webmail.natasha.cc> Brent, who are these "coercive transhumanists".? I don't get it.? Transhumanism, by its very nature - its defintiion and its philosophy -?cannot be coercive.? If someone is calling him/herself a transhumanist and then proposing we force modificaitons to the bodies of others, then they are not transhumanist.? I find it that simple.? Now, the difficult part is separating ourselves from these people who call themselves transhumanists who are not transhumanists.? That I think must be addressed.? Since teh H+ symbol is in the public domain, anyone can use it.? This means that?the transhumaists need to get in the middle of the biopolitics discussion and make their voices heard without pushing any one?political position - socialist, libertarrian or otherwise.? This must be outside political fighting and name calling and in the larger socio-political arena where the human and his/her/its body is his/her/its property to do with it what he/she/it wants, unless?and until her/her/its actions infringe on the rights of another person or his/her/its body. Natasha Quoting Brent Allsop : > Transhumanists, > > There is always going to be some small minority set of non expert > transhumanism that advocate coercion, even of the military type.? The > huge anti transhumanist types are always going to way amplify and > believe all that and lump us all in the same bucket, beyond anything > we can counter, alone. > > The best way to fight this is to have explicit signed survey > declarations, of the majority of expert transhumanists, so nobody can > doubt that any ?coercive transhumanists? are only a few uneducated > extremists the majority of expert transhumanists repudiate. > > The very goal of canonizer.com, is to find out what EVERYONE, > including people that are still Luddites, wants, concisely and > quantitatively.? The more diversity the better.? As many transhumanist > as possible should point out that our goal is to first find out what > everyone wants, and have all of that as our goal, never forcing or > denying any of it for anyone. > > Brent Allsop > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> Joseph Bloch wrote: >>> >>> An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his >>> debate with Peter Lawler last week: >>> >>> http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati[1] >>> >> >> Similar themes came up in my debate yesterday evening at the Manchester >> University student union, where I was debating David king from Human >> Genetics Alert. He argued (from a pretty leftist standpoint) that >> enhancement embodies the ideal of capitalism and since capitalism is bad for >> human value and diversity hence most enhancement is bad. As he saw it, >> western liberal individualism promotes uniformization in respect to the >> market. I argued that the fact that his claim already disproves itself: we >> live in a society where diversity is highly valued - if it wasn't we >> couldn't care less if enhancement reduced it. The coerciveness of >> enhancement is like the coerciveness of fitting into existing culture: there >> are plenty of things to be concerned with, but we do have plenty of freedom >> *in liberal individualistic open societies* to try to change them. >> >> Best line from King: "You can tell that the previous two speakers are >> bioethicists, since they were constantly using the word 'we'" - he has a >> point. Ethicists tend to assume there is a big set of ethical humans who we >> all belong to who try to act right. King seemed to assume that most problems >> were due to an unseen 'they' group responsible for most bad things, but >> conveniently forgot that his own reasoning suggested most of the problems he >> saw with enhancement was due to the social organisation of society - us. >> >> Now off to London to talk ethics of brain interfaces and do a BBC interview >> on enhancers... ah, the life of the jetset (or rather, train-set) >> bioethicist! ;-) >> >> -- >> Anders Sandberg, >> Future of Humanity Institute >> Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[2] >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[3] > Links: ------ [1] http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati [2] http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat [3] http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 20:37:16 2011 From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:37:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > > And while the jury may still be out on the subject I am not > sure that the majority of "expert transhumanists" are ready to > repudiate it without a second thought. I'm more than a little worried about this causal bandying about of "expert transhumanists" as a phrase. It seems to carry with it the implication that those of us without PhD's should just hush up and let the experts do all the Big Thinking for us. Joseph From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 20 22:51:49 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:51:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Joseph Bloch : > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: >> >> And while the jury may still be out on the subject I am not >> sure that the majority of "expert transhumanists" are ready to >> repudiate it without a second thought. > > I'm more than a little worried about this causal bandying about of > "expert transhumanists" as a phrase. It seems to carry with it the > implication that those of us without PhD's should just hush up and let > the experts do all the Big Thinking for us. I think?Stefano means experts in transhumanist-related arguments, not "expert transhumanists", per se. Anyway, let's not dismiss PhDs or those who do not have them. After all, Ronald Baily is not a PhD and he is one of the most erudite thinker on transhumanist-type topics, while?Don Ihde is a PhD and his thinking on transhumanist topics is nescient. Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 23:03:06 2011 From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:03:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: 2011/10/20 : > Quoting Joseph Bloch : > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Stefano Vaj >> wrote: >>> >>> And while the jury may still be out on the subject I am not >>> sure that the majority of "expert transhumanists" are ready to >>> repudiate it without a second thought. >> >> I'm more than a little worried about this causal bandying about of >> "expert transhumanists" as a phrase. It seems to carry with it the >> implication that those of us without PhD's should just hush up and let >> the experts do all the Big Thinking for us. > > I think?Stefano means experts in transhumanist-related arguments, not > "expert transhumanists", per se. Anyway, let's not dismiss PhDs or those who > do not have them. After all, Ronald Baily is not a PhD and he is one of the > most erudite thinker on transhumanist-type topics, while?Don Ihde is a PhD > and his thinking on transhumanist topics is nescient. > > Natasha Well, Stefano was merely echoing Brett, who stated: "There is always going to be some small minority set of non expert transhumanism that advocate coercion, even of the military type." Brett, perhaps you could elaborate on this difference between "expert transhumanism" and "non expert transhumanism"? You seem to think that the latter spawns coercive transhumanist ideas, and the former presumably does not. Specific examples (both of what makes some forms of transhumanism "expert" and of those who advocate coercion) would be appreciated. Joseph From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 23:20:02 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 01:20:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: 2011/10/21 > I think Stefano means experts in transhumanist-related arguments, not > "expert transhumanists", per se. > No, my quotation marks meant that I was just quoting Brent's language. In fact, I have my own onbjections on the characterisation of "expert transhumanists". Moreover, as already said, I have to meet yet a possible "naive transhumanist", or anybody at all for that matter, who actually proposes, say, to make life extension compulsory; so I do not not really see the need to distinguish ourselves from such an entirely imaginary bioluddite strawman. But perhaps those who disagree can point me to a source, any source, expressing such a weird position. In that case, yes, we should have to disagree with it. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 20 23:51:23 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:51:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Stefano Vaj : > 2011/10/21 > >> I think Stefano means experts in transhumanist-related arguments, not >> "expert transhumanists", per se. > > No, my quotation marks meant that I was just quoting Brent's language. In > fact, I have my own onbjections on the characterisation of "expert > transhumanists". I'm sorry, it was not clear in the post I responded to. > Moreover, as already said, I have to meet yet a possible "naive > transhumanist", or anybody at all for that matter, who actually proposes, > say, to make life extension compulsory; so I do not not really see the need > to distinguish ourselves from such an entirely imaginary bioluddite > strawman. I'm met some naive transhumanists :-) > But perhaps those who disagree can point me to a source, any source, > expressing such a weird position. In that case, yes, we should have to > disagree with it. I'll do this off list. N -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 23:59:45 2011 From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:59:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: 2011/10/20 : > Quoting Stefano Vaj : > >> But perhaps those who disagree can point me to a source, any source, >> expressing such a weird position. In that case, yes, we should have to >> disagree with it. > > I'll do this off list. Could I ask you not to do so? I think it's in all our interests to know if there are folks out there advocating mandatory life extension, compulsory replacement of limbs and organs with bionic replacements, and obligatory cognitive enhancement drugs. Especially if they're doing so in the name of Transhumanism. Surely that's something that all Transhumanists need to know about, if only in order to guard against it. Joseph From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Oct 21 00:52:47 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:52:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20111020205247.8vnreq300sckooo8@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Joseph Bloch : > 2011/10/20? : >> Quoting Stefano Vaj : >> >>> But perhaps those who disagree can point me to a source, any source, >>> expressing such a weird position. In that case, yes, we should have to >>> disagree with it. >> >> I'll do this off list. > > Could I ask you not to do so? I think it's in all our interests to > know if there are folks out there advocating mandatory life extension, > compulsory replacement of limbs and organs with bionic replacements, > and obligatory cognitive enhancement drugs. Especially if they're > doing so in the name of Transhumanism. You seem to be looking for?someone(s) who might propose coercive tactics, while I was responding to "naive" approaches. Re: coercive tactics, I don't know anyone. If I did, you would too and they would probably be in jail, or hunted by the FBI.? As for?naive approaches, I refer to anyone who?thinks he/she?can save the world through nano or ai.? Certainly it?could?possible at a later date, but?through a different consciousness: one that would have to be more evolved than the human brain and ability to individuate and to? form connective awareness. Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 00:09:30 2011 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:09:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Coercive Transhumanism Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Subject: Re: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? snip > But do they *exist* in the first place? Aren't you a little too quick > in conceding this point? If someone can think of it, advocates probably exists for cause X no matter how extreme. > I would be hard pressed to find anybody actually advocating "coercive > life-extension", or "coercive enhancement" One of the first signs of an "underground" singularity would be a sudden drop in the death rate followed by Alzheimer's patients checking themselves out of nursing homes. An amusing story, if someone wants to write it, would be about someone pissing an moaning about being turned into an immortal superman. The obvious ending would be like the end of the Jack Vance story "Green Magic." Keith From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 01:03:22 2011 From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:03:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111020205247.8vnreq300sckooo8@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020205247.8vnreq300sckooo8@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: 2011/10/20 : > > You seem to be looking for?someone(s) who might propose coercive tactics, > while I was responding to "naive" approaches. Ah! My apologies. The vagaries of inline commenting obviously led to a misunderstanding. For what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of those who think that AI or nanoassemblers will somehow be a magic bullet that will save the world as naive. ::shakes fist angrily at the vagaries of inline commenting:: Joseph From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Oct 21 01:11:07 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:11:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Coercive Transhumanism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111020211107.9rgf9l2n4sg4o4gs@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Keith Henson : > One of the first signs of an "underground" singularity would be a > sudden drop in the death rate followed by Alzheimer's patients > checking themselves out of nursing homes. LOL!? Good one Keith :-) > An amusing story, if someone wants to write it, would be about someone > pissing an moaning about being turned into an immortal superman. That's what FM used to say--that people will be dragged pissing and moning into the future, but they will go nonetheless. Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Oct 21 01:13:25 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:13:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020205247.8vnreq300sckooo8@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20111020211325.idyf7luml4wooooc@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Joseph Bloch : > 2011/10/20? : >> >> You seem to be looking for?someone(s) who might propose coercive tactics, >> while I was responding to "naive" approaches. > > Ah! My apologies. No problema!? I made a mistake earlier as well :-) Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Fri Oct 21 02:51:41 2011 From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:51:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] "Transhumanist Experts" (Was Re: Is Transhumanism Coercive?) In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4EA0DE3D.30905@canonizer.com> On 10/20/2011 5:20 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > 2011/10/21 > > I think Stefano means experts in transhumanist-related arguments, > not "expert transhumanists", per se. > > > No, my quotation marks meant that I was just quoting Brent's language. > In fact, I have my own onbjections on the characterisation of "expert > transhumanists". > > Moreover, as already said, I have to meet yet a possible "naive > transhumanist", or anybody at all for that matter, who actually > proposes, say, to make life extension compulsory; so I do not not > really see the need to distinguish ourselves from such an entirely > imaginary bioluddite strawman. > > But perhaps those who disagree can point me to a source, any source, > expressing such a weird position. In that case, yes, we should have to > disagree with it. > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Folks, Thanks for asking for clarification of what I meant by "Expert Transhumanists". First, let me address the question of who are these "coercive transhumanists". It is probably true, that there aren't many people that would value forcing people to improve themselves, and so on, although, I bet there are at least some out there, as Keith iterated. I was talking more of the types that mandate taking up military power, overthrowing governments, and putting in place ones that are more progressive and transhumanst. Ones that mandates, with military might, that more money be spent on life extension research, space programs, and so on. I'd be surprised if you guys have never met any of these. And I believe it would only take a few, for the bazillions of luddites out there to amplify what they are saying in to lots of repeated noise everywhere, lumping all of us together, way beyond anything the few of us could successfully counter. Another good example of this kind of amplified lying noise, is how wikipedia, and the whole world, is lying about how much expert consensus there is for and against qualia. The Wikipedia article (along with the 20K peer reviewed published documents in this field) makes everyone think there is as much expert consensus against qualia is there is for it. All the experts know this is a lie, but what can these few experts do against all the repeated noise of the very smart but ignorant on this topic masses? Nothing, YET. But canonizer.com is about to change that in a BIG way, now that we are getting ready to publish our first dramatic early results about just how much consensus there is, after all, in this field, on a great many critically important things such as what and where is qualia. If we had a comprehensive definitive survey of what ALL transhumanusts believed and valued, on a great many such topics, including should people be forced, and so on, we could show that, even if they do exist, 'coercive transhumanists' are an extreme minority, compared to what the rest of us want. Such a definitive survey, which would be proof of what all transhumanists value, would be the only thing that can stop the popular masses from repeating such lies, like transhumanists are coercive, above our very minority voice. Next, who are "Extropian Experts"? This is purely a canonizer.com based term, so I apologize for using it out of context. The way canonizer.com is set up, there can be multiple ways people can become recognized 'experts' in any of an infinite number of micro individual topics. We are measuring for 'mind experts' in the consciousness survey project, to compare and contrast what the experts think, compared to what the general population things (one person, one vote canonizer algorithm). These "mind experts" are determined via a peer ranking process. (see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/53/11 ) Another way to become an 'expert' on any give survey topic, is for people to 'delegate' their vote to you, in that one survey topic. Anyone can delegate their vote to anyone else, resulting in potentially huge trees of delegates, with the people at the top having huge amounts of influence, on that one survey topic, on any particular issue. In the real world, this may not be a real possibility, but let's say there is some imaginary scenario, in some possible world, where military action is the best thing for transhumanists to do. Let's say there is a survey topic on the issue of whether or not we should do military action for a particular cause (who knows what it might be). I may delegate my Vote to Spike, who I might consider more of an expert on this issue than I, and trust he would make a better decision than myself. On things like what are the best rocket mechanic issues, spike may consider himself an expert, and vote on things himself, directly. While on this particular issue he may know of a friend that he trusts better than himself. Let's say this delegation process repeats beyond Spikes frind, many more times, resulting at some super 'transhumanist expert' at the top of large delegated trees, on just this micro issue, of should transhumanists take up arms for some issue. Let's say this 'transhumanist expert' is of course in the non coercive camp, saying we should not go to war. Let's say there are several like him at the tops of all these delegated expert trees, all in the same camp, on just this issue. And together, there are near 100,000 transhumanists that are delegating their values to them on this single issue, "Should we go to war?" But, then, some new very powerful and very convincing evidence comes to one of these experts. He then consults the handful of others leading these 100,000 transhumanists in all these delegated trees, and they all are very convinced that immediate warring action is by far the best thing for all transhumanists to do, maybe the fate of the world is at stake. So, when they, all together, jump camps from the no war, to the war camp, the 100,000 transhumanists all jump with them, because we trust them, and we all go to war with them -- just in the nick of time, saving the world, or maybe millions of people that would otherwise have died, or have not made it to the singularity, or whatever. The way canonizer.com survey system is set up, it enables each individual to select who they want their experts to be (or what canonizer algorithm they prefer.) This allows the entire crowd to become as intelligent as the amplified experts, in each individual topic. I'm an expert at only one topic, philosophy of mind. I'm an idiot at most everything else. Now that all the experts are 'canonizing' what they think, and stating the best theories, concisely, with quantitative measure of consensus (by your chosen experts), you to have a reference to the expert wisdom of the masses on this topic and keep up with all that, with almost no effort. Let's take one other single example issue where I'm completely clueless. What is the best cryonics organization / method? I can't spend as much time on something as critical as this, as I do on philosophy of mind. So I desperately need something similar, so I can know the best real time theories, concisely stated, with quantitative measures of my selected experts. There are so many other similar issues like this, where I'm now living a terrible life, because I don't know any better. I desperately need to know the expert based wisdom of the transhumanist crowd so I can live a better life. So, the 'transhumanists experts' would be people that have lots of both kind of this kind of reputation built up, on countless topics and 'mind expert' like surveys. And the ones that were 'coercive transhumanists' would always clearly be extremists, idiots, naive people that had no expert reputations built up in the system, compared to the true "Expert transhumanists". Does That make more sense? It is all completely leaderless, yet able to make dramatic changes on a dime, in an instant. If any experts ever screw up, their power structure vanishes instantly, as people delegate their support to someone else. Everything is based and derived, from the bottom up, based on what everyone wants, and knowing such concisely and quantitatively. If everyone can know, concicely and quantitatively, what everyone wants, you can stop all the bickering, ignorant lies of the masses, and easily co-operate with everyone to finally getting it all. Knowing is the only hard part, getting it is the easy part once we can all work together at it, instead of eternal yes / no / yes bickering. Sorry it's so long. How many people are still with me? As always I'd love to know more of your thoughts or questions!! Brent Allsop -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Fri Oct 21 03:00:22 2011 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:00:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Coercive Transhumanism In-Reply-To: <20111020211107.9rgf9l2n4sg4o4gs@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <20111020211107.9rgf9l2n4sg4o4gs@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4EA0E046.8050802@moulton.com> On 10/20/2011 06:11 PM, natasha at natasha.cc wrote: > > Quoting Keith Henson : > > > One of the first signs of an "underground" singularity would be a > > sudden drop in the death rate followed by Alzheimer's patients > > checking themselves out of nursing homes. > > LOL! Good one Keith :-) > > > An amusing story, if someone wants to write it, would be about someone > > pissing an moaning about being turned into an immortal superman. > > That's what FM used to say--that people will be dragged pissing and > moning into the future, but they will go nonetheless. > > Natasha > I expect most have read the following; however if not then I recommend them Gentle Seduction by Marc Stiegler http://www.skyhunter.com/marcs/GentleSeduction.html and of course Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge which is not at the URL it was previously but googling should find it and it is in print on paper See Chapter Two for introduction of a main character who is recovering from Alzheimer's Fred From dennislmay at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 03:44:25 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Shared "Mind" Database & AI Development Message-ID: <1319168665.1139.YahooMailNeo@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> One of the largest challenges in the development of AI is financial.? Some ten years ago I estimated my favored approach would take some 2 billion dollars in lab equipment and infrastructure plus the budget to keep a minimum of 50?people involved - call it 100 million per year for 10-15 years.? Adjust for current pricing.? I based this pricing from my experience at a particular lab which?is part of what is now called the Air Force Research Laboratory system. ? I don't expect this kind of steady long term investment to be available from any government entity in my lifetime.? It could however be built up over time as part of a commercial enterprise delivering a personal upgrade product line. ? This concept would be a continuation?of the idea of a series of minor human upgrades - possibly involving a kind of smart phone technology and minor implants and added sensor capability. ? The reason I put in the headline shared "mind" database is because thousands of customers could be served and help add knowledge to a growing database system - a kind of automated Wikipedia of the mind.? The growth of the system can help pay for the AI work.? The AI is integrated into the network as portions come on line.? It would be expected that over the time frame of development there would be improvements in product delivery, improved sensors, improved implants, and improvements in the AI structure and ways to integrate it into the database.? The AI portion would be the financing I indicated before.? The upgrade and shared mind database development would become?another?whole large entity over time. Like anything it would necessarily start small with a?tiny?number of applications, sensors, and implant options. ? Grand up front designs for AI will die when at the hands of bean counters and/or politically savvy?managers?with pet?projects and connections.? The government lab system is littered with dead projects that die one of these two ways. The wheel is re-invented at least twice per generation. ? Just my 2 cents for the day. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 21 06:11:32 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:11:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <20111021061132.GV25711@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 04:37:16PM -0400, Joseph Bloch wrote: > I'm more than a little worried about this causal bandying about of > "expert transhumanists" as a phrase. It seems to carry with it the > implication that those of us without PhD's should just hush up and let Haven't seen any PhDs in transhumanism. > the experts do all the Big Thinking for us. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From anders at aleph.se Fri Oct 21 08:36:58 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:36:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> Message-ID: <4EA12F2A.5080700@aleph.se> Stefano Vaj wrote: > The very idea that there would be social pressure, and actually a > rush, towards the adoption of safe, unexpensive, painless enhancing, > eugenic and life-extending technologies, and that laws increasingly > difficult to enforce would have to be enacted not to make them > "compulsory", but rather to prevent their spreading, is the best > counter-argument in fact against the spectre of a overhumanist > "totalitarism" with all the usual Hollywood, tear-inducing trappings. Yes. However, the evidence seems to suggest that while the spread of many helpful technologies is pretty fast, the *development* of them seems to be a bottleneck. There is no doubt a demand for life extension, but I suspect more is spent on life extension pseudoscience (which can be bought directly by the consumer) than in funding for real biogerontology. This development bottleneck is where political and cultural influence has the most importance, IMHO. > Intelligent anti-transhumanists, such as J?rgen Habermas, fully > realise that, and seem ready to renounce values such as freedom, > self-determination, involuntary-suffering avoidance and protection of > human lives for the sake of humanism. This is of course a major > tactical point, because I suppose that most of their constituencies > and audiences are not equally ready to do so. Much can be achieved with framing, or leaving out aspects. Most liberal-minded people will immediately agree that women have a right to abortion. Yet they often say no to gender selection. This puts them in an uncomfortable situation visavi the right to abortion (they often accept an abortion due to the mother wishing to go on a holiday as being moral if rather selfish, while arguing that a mother aborting an embryo because of some genetic trait to be immoral). It can easily be resolved by instead focusing on the means to detect something, which is why they then quickly move to argue that ultrasound or genetic tests should not reveal such information to parents. This of course manages to both dodge the tough moral question, impairs the freedom of people, and is pretty unlikely to work in the long run. But to the right-thinking people supporting this line of thought, that is not a problem since these problems are not seriously considered in their evaluation of the situation. Of course, we should recognize that we often do the same kind of mistake in our own thinking. Not fully exploring the uncomfortable implications of one's ideas is pretty standard for humans at this stage. > That is, except for our friend Charles Stross, who appears on the same > line to consider a Vile Offspring that which becomes too detached from > its human origins. Count us FHI people in here too. We are seriously concerned about some evolutionary existential risks and AI disasters (the problem is not detachment from human origins per se, but the creation of strong systems that lack human - or any - value and are inimical to our existence). We are however doing our best to find a solution, https://secure.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/6265049168/in/photostream There is a real ethical question here: is coercion acceptable to save humanity? (for example, preventing people from building/becoming the Vile Offspring and then outcompeting conscious life) Normal harm principles seem to OK it. Existential risks just turn the volume up to 11. This might actually be one area where some transhumanists *do* think global coercion is justified. > > It is however true that globalised western capitalism might indeed > involve a risk a loss of diversity across our species, given its > ability to reduce, both socially and inter-culturally, the *plurality* > of models of excellence and of value systems to a single normalised > "Ken & Barbie" paradigm, where for instance a disproportionate > importance is attributed to one's ability to accumulate exchange > units, that is money, or rather empty status symbols, in comparison > with other possibly desirable features and optimality views. > > But, besides the fact that the process is already in place > irrespective of any possible accelerating technology, genetic > engineering and other similar tools allow a much greater > uniformisation as well as a much greater *diversification* of the > humankind than it has traditionally been the case. It is not the > technology the problem, but what we choose to do with it. One of my points in the debate was to ask whether we saw more or less diversity in western culture than in other cultures. I did not get an answer to that question, but I think it is true. While the uniformization exists, it also allows plenty of space for individual difference - we can afford to have subcultures, to move between them, to experiment with new lifestyles and so on. David Brin pointed out that the western world has a unique love for picking up memes from other cultures and treasuring the diversity that results, something that is much more rare in other cultures. Note that culture != economic system - one could have a pro-conformity culture with a capitalist system, which would result in a fairly dystopian outcome (China?) My opponent probably felt culture was secondary to economic system, so he put the cart before the horse and argued that the conformism he deplored (yet urged us to adopt in regards to morphological change) was due to capitalism, and that capitalism is the main force shaping our culture. > There again, Habermas does not miss the point, coming of course to > value judgments opposite to mine, when he warns against what he > regards as the ?nightmare scenario? of a ?genetic communitarianism?, > in which different cultures could carry forward a ?genetic > self-optimization of mankind in different directions, thereby ending > up jeopardising the unity of human nature as a basis with respect to > which all men have until now been able to understand and mutually > recognise each other as members of the same moral community? (/The > Future of Human Nature/, Polity Press 2003). A lot of the resistance seems to be based on genetic essentialism. My opponent argued that he thought it would be horrible if our capitalist inequalities got embedded in our genome, implicitely assuming that the genome is somehow much more important than our wallets, brains or memes. Habermas assumes that the ability to recognize each other as part of the same moral community depends on genetics, while it actually depends on empathy with the mental processes of others. However, modifications that do change our ability to function as general moral agents should likely be cause for concern. A sociopathy enhancement might not be a good thing. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Fri Oct 21 08:42:45 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:42:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111021061132.GV25711@leitl.org> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111021061132.GV25711@leitl.org> Message-ID: <4EA13085.30707@aleph.se> Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 04:37:16PM -0400, Joseph Bloch wrote: > > >> I'm more than a little worried about this causal bandying about of >> "expert transhumanists" as a phrase. It seems to carry with it the >> implication that those of us without PhD's should just hush up and let >> > > Haven't seen any PhDs in transhumanism. > Maybe not *in* transhumanism, but I recently met a student working on a PhD on transhumanism. And she contacted me because she felt I was an "expert" transhumanist :-) I do think we can and should have a connoisseurship of transhumanism. While each of us individually cannot do or argue all the fields encompassed by our topic, we can learn to recognize signs of quality thinking. None of us are experts on everything, but we can learn to recognize who is good at what kind of questions. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 10:56:03 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:56:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: 2011/10/21 > Quoting Stefano Vaj : > > Moreover, as already said, I have to meet yet a possible "naive > > transhumanist", or anybody at all for that matter, who actually proposes, > > say, to make life extension compulsory; so I do not not really see the > need > > to distinguish ourselves from such an entirely imaginary bioluddite > > strawman. > > I'm met some naive transhumanists :-) > So did I, but... advocating *compulsory* life extension?! This is the weirdest think I have ever heard, and even though I admit that they could exist in principle, I have simply never met one, be it just in writing. In fact, 98% of transhumanists I know are even in favour of euthanasia, or squarely of freedom of suicide. And even though I know that many of us are simply "immortalists" in the literal sense, what I personally find unbearable and worth fighting against is not death per se, is the restriction to my freedom to decide whether to live or die, and when, imposed by our current lifespan. > But perhaps those who disagree can point me to a source, any source, > > expressing such a weird position. In that case, yes, we should have to > > disagree with it. > > I'll do this off list. > Ah, OK, thank you. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 21 11:26:36 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:26:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> <20111020195123.k057ra63pcw08oow@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20111021112636.GI25711@leitl.org> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:56:03PM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote: > So did I, but... advocating *compulsory* life extension?! > > This is the weirdest think I have ever heard, and even though I admit that > they could exist in principle, I have simply never met one, be it just in > writing. As a hypothetical, consider self-propagating medical nanoware that stops death (and suffering, and reverses aging) planet-wide in a few days. Now many loudly profess they want to die, but natural death is hardly informed consent, since opt-in is default, and also coercive (by way of stepping up suffering or dysphoria until you 'volunteer'). It's sounds a lot like Stockholm syndrome, or a coping mechanism with the inevitable. Would you deploy such plague of immortality, assuming you could, and sort out the yes-I-really-do-want-to-die-yes-means-yes hardcore cases after the smoke clears? And where would intervention stop and modification begin, say in case of clinical depression or apotemnophilia (fixing body image maps is easy)? Ugh. I must admit I would do that, provided the issue of euthanasia would be solved in a given time span, a few months or so. Now many would call that evil, but evil is not an absolute metric. There is no easy moral calculus, though utilitarianism hints at one. I must admit I would ask for forgiveness afterwards instead of for permission before. Yes, it's coercive, but it's of limited scope and temporal extent, and reversible. (Boy, am I glad this is just a theoretical exercise). > In fact, 98% of transhumanists I know are even in favour of euthanasia, or > squarely of freedom of suicide. In case of human cryopreservation euthanasia would be considered part of palliative care, as it assumes the patient can recover eventually as state of the art in medicine advances. It's obvious that truncating suffering makes sense, but less so if you can eliminate suffering/maximize eudaimonia -- purely theoretical, of course, since we can't really do that yet. > And even though I know that many of us are simply "immortalists" in the > literal sense, what I personally find unbearable and worth fighting against > is not death per se, is the restriction to my freedom to decide whether to > live or die, and when, imposed by our current lifespan. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 12:08:11 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:08:11 +0200 Subject: [ExI] "Transhumanist Experts" (Was Re: Is Transhumanism Coercive?) In-Reply-To: <4EA0DE3D.30905@canonizer.com> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111020185149.xt5hxhj5wg8ww8gs@webmail.natasha.cc> <4EA0DE3D.30905@canonizer.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/21 Brent Allsop > I was talking more of the types that mandate taking up military power, > overthrowing governments, and putting in place ones that are more > progressive and transhumanst. > Would I support overthrowing the Saudi government? Well, I am not a Saudi myself, and am a staunch supporter of self-determination and non-interference principles against James Hughes's ideas of enforced "global governance" mechanisms, but *were a genuine local movement, say a women liberation front, to try and replace it with something more suited to their taste, I suppose I could not help being sympathetic*. Does this make me a "coercive transhumanist"? And what does it have to do with forcing people to live longer than they wish? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Oct 21 15:21:30 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:21:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4EA13085.30707@aleph.se> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111021061132.GV25711@leitl.org> <4EA13085.30707@aleph.se> Message-ID: <0239B542AB304E6288933AE7FE6FA205@DFC68LF1> Sorry for top posting. Anders is right. In fact, I have read several dissertations expressly on "transhumanism". My phd is most definitely on transhumanism, although my advisors were strongly opposed to me using transhumanism in the title. Natasha Natasha Vita-More Chair, Humanity+ PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK Co-Editor, The Transhumanist Reader -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 3:43 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 04:37:16PM -0400, Joseph Bloch wrote: > > >> I'm more than a little worried about this causal bandying about of >> "expert transhumanists" as a phrase. It seems to carry with it the >> implication that those of us without PhD's should just hush up and >> let >> > > Haven't seen any PhDs in transhumanism. > Maybe not *in* transhumanism, but I recently met a student working on a PhD on transhumanism. And she contacted me because she felt I was an "expert" transhumanist :-) I do think we can and should have a connoisseurship of transhumanism. While each of us individually cannot do or argue all the fields encompassed by our topic, we can learn to recognize signs of quality thinking. None of us are experts on everything, but we can learn to recognize who is good at what kind of questions. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 16:35:48 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:35:48 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <0239B542AB304E6288933AE7FE6FA205@DFC68LF1> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111021061132.GV25711@leitl.org> <4EA13085.30707@aleph.se> <0239B542AB304E6288933AE7FE6FA205@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: On 21 October 2011 17:21, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Sorry for top posting. Anders is right. In fact, I have read several > dissertations expressly on "transhumanism". My phd is most definitely on > transhumanism, although my advisors were strongly opposed to me using > transhumanism in the title. > Transhumanism ultimately is a philosophy, which of course can and should be learned, as for any other school of thought, by investigating its history and the positions expressed by its authors and representatives, and I have helped myself a student to prepare a doctorate thesis on the subject. Transhumanism-relevant technologies or trends are of course an altogether different subject, which can hardly be reduced to a single research field. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Oct 21 18:36:06 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:36:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111021061132.GV25711@leitl.org> <4EA13085.30707@aleph.se> <0239B542AB304E6288933AE7FE6FA205@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <20111021143606.3cu4o5060co8wkgs@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting Stefano Vaj : > On 21 October 2011 17:21, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > >> Sorry for top posting. Anders is right.? In fact, I have read several >> dissertations expressly on "transhumanism". My phd is most definitely on >> transhumanism, although my advisors were strongly opposed to me using >> transhumanism in the title. > > Transhumanism ultimately is a philosophy, which of course can and should be > learned, as for any other school of thought, by investigating its history > and the positions expressed by its authors and representatives, and I have > helped myself a student to prepare a doctorate thesis on the subject. Yes?and?it will become?a?part of the Humanities curriculum. Likewise, there are numerous PhD?dissertations on Postmodernism. (In fact, the postmodernist rhetoric in academics is so strong that coursework is essential.) Bty, Our book /The Transhumanist Reader/ will be coming out next year, in time for the fall 2012 coursework. > Transhumanism-relevant technologies or trends are of course an altogether > different subject, which can hardly be reduced to a single research field. Not necessarily.? Transhumanist technologies are endemic to transhumanism, without which there would be no?transhumanism.? (I mean, how the heck are we supposed to expand life onto non-biological systems without technology?)? I suppose one could say that postmodernism's technology is the written word, while transhumanism's technology is evolution.) There have been a lot of efforts for scholars to create a field out of posthumanism, but it is so intertwined with postmodernism that it never really happened.? This is where transhumanism comes to the rescue!? Transhumanism has an opportunity to get?scholars out of the postmodernist train wreck and into some critical thinking, problem solving, practicability /AND /visionary ideation. Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 21 20:39:21 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:39:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters Message-ID: <003401cc9031$83a249b0$8ae6dd10$@att.net> Sorry for the non-tranhumanist post, but I need some help. We had a local burglary, and we have two good photographs of the SUV involved. I am not an SUV hipster, but if there are any here, or know any good URLs which show a bunch of SUVs, I can match the perp with the vehicle. This one is rather odd, so it will narrow down the suspect. Hey wait, I can help make this on topic. We have a case where the neighborhood has a hidden video camera, and caught these bastards in the act, but video only. We actually have photos of the perps, but the resolution is too low to tell us much. The video of the vehicle is good enough to identify, if I knew my SUVs. Do feel free to contact me offlist, spike66 at att.net if you want to be an amateur crime fighter, or post here the lineup of SUVs. This one might be 20 yrs old. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 20:55:51 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:55:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <20111021143606.3cu4o5060co8wkgs@webmail.natasha.cc> References: <4E9FAFF1.8050208@aleph.se> <20111021061132.GV25711@leitl.org> <4EA13085.30707@aleph.se> <0239B542AB304E6288933AE7FE6FA205@DFC68LF1> <20111021143606.3cu4o5060co8wkgs@webmail.natasha.cc> Message-ID: 2011/10/21 > > > Transhumanism-relevant technologies or trends are of course an altogether different subject, which can hardly be reduced to a single research field. > > Not necessarily.? Transhumanist technologies are endemic to transhumanism, without which there would be no?transhumanism.? (I mean, how the heck are we supposed to expand life onto non-biological systems without technology?)? I suppose one could say that postmodernism's technology is the written word, while transhumanism's technology is evolution.) Right. Let me rephrase: "Transhumanism-relevant technologies or trends are of course an altogether different story, because they can hardly be reduced to a single research field, so that a single research project is not likely to exhaust them all". > There have been a lot of efforts for scholars to create a field out of posthumanism, but it is so intertwined with postmodernism that it never really happened.? This is where transhumanism comes to the rescue!? Transhumanism has an opportunity to get?scholars out of the postmodernist train wreck and into some critical thinking, problem solving, practicability and visionary ideation. Indeed. -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 21 20:44:50 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:44:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters Message-ID: <004e01cc9032$47d6b640$d78422c0$@att.net> Subject: suv hipsters >.Sorry for the non-tranhumanist post, but I need some help.Do feel free to contact me offlist, spike66 at att.net if you want to be an amateur crime fighter, or post here the lineup of SUVs. This one might be 20 yrs old. spike Amateur crime fighters, can anyone identify the make and model of this SUV, or can your buddies? This looks like an oddball truck, so if we can get make and model, we can probably nail the perps, ja? I will rise up and call you blessed, the grand prize for identification of this make and model will be my everlasting admiration, thanks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29344 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 21 20:48:07 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:48:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters Message-ID: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] Subject: suv hipsters >.Sorry for the non-tranhumanist post, but I need some help.. >.Do feel free to contact me offlist, spike66 at att.net if you want to be an amateur crime fighter, or post here the lineup of SUVs. This one might be 20 yrs old. spike Here's the other side of the bad guys' truck: s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 22:12:32 2011 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> References: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> Message-ID: <1319235152.11749.YahooMailNeo@web160613.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Looks like a Pathfinder, but I might be wrong... Dan ________________________________ From: spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] suv hipsters ? ? From:spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] Subject: suv hipsters ? ? >?Sorry for the non-tranhumanist post, but I need some help?. ? >?Do feel free to contact me offlist, spike66 at att.net if you want to be an amateur crime fighter, or post here the lineup of SUVs.? This one might be 20 yrs old.? spike ? ? ? Here?s the other side of the bad guys? truck: s ? ? ? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 22:36:16 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:36:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <1319235152.11749.YahooMailNeo@web160613.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> <1319235152.11749.YahooMailNeo@web160613.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Spike, you should take the pics around to local car dealerships. They would be the people to ask. John 2011/10/21 Dan > Looks like a Pathfinder, but I might be wrong... > > Dan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* spike > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Sent:* Friday, October 21, 2011 4:48 PM > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] suv hipsters > > > > *From:* spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] > *Subject:* suv hipsters > > > >?Sorry for the non-tranhumanist post, but I need some help?. > > >?Do feel free to contact me offlist, spike66 at att.net if you want to be an > amateur crime fighter, or post here the lineup of SUVs. This one might be > 20 yrs old. spike > > > > Here?s the other side of the bad guys? truck: > s > > * * > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22391 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Oct 21 22:44:32 2011 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:44:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> References: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> Message-ID: I have forwarded the pics to my son who is at the races now and surrounded by "car people". Hope there's some good comes from that. Regards, MB From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 21:41:28 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:41:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <003401cc9031$83a249b0$8ae6dd10$@att.net> References: <003401cc9031$83a249b0$8ae6dd10$@att.net> Message-ID: Do you have video of the vehicle turning around, to get its license plate? Do the local cops have software to recognize the make & model from the video? 2011/10/21 spike : > > > Sorry for the non-tranhumanist post, but I need some help. > > > > We had a local burglary, and we have two good photographs of the SUV > involved.? I am not an SUV hipster, but if there are any here, or know any > good URLs which show a bunch of SUVs, I can match the perp with the > vehicle.? This one is rather odd, so it will narrow down the suspect. > > > > Hey wait, I can help make this on topic.? We have a case where the > neighborhood has a hidden video camera, and caught these bastards in the > act, but video only.? We actually have photos of the perps, but the > resolution is too low to tell us much.? The video of the vehicle is good > enough to identify, if I knew my SUVs. > > > > Do feel free to contact me offlist, spike66 at att.net if you want to be an > amateur crime fighter, or post here the lineup of SUVs.? This one might be > 20 yrs old. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From spike66 at att.net Fri Oct 21 23:32:51 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:32:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters In-Reply-To: References: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> <1319235152.11749.YahooMailNeo@web160613.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e101cc9049$c0a84f90$41f8eeb0$@att.net> This little adventure has my wheels spinning wildly. The ones in my head I mean. We have face identification software. This AI class and the local felony has me thinking we could write car identification software, which seems to me like it would be a lot easier than faces, because cars don't change every time the driver laughs. Any ideas how to do it? I thought of using the roof post angles with horizontal. Other ideas? We could create a huge database easily enough. The trick would be getting the computer to digitize a photo and generate the angles from a side view. We can sidestep the Big Brother aspect by having the processing done by volunteers, sorta like Folding at home, except this would be specialized for bagging criminals. We could start Nabbing at home.com and really give the sleazy perps hell. We could have them hewing rocks to fit the prison pillowcases in short order, haaaaaaa. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 00:38:46 2011 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:38:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> References: <005401cc9032$bd9561b0$38c02510$@att.net> Message-ID: Looks like a Jeep Cherokee, to me. Kind of like: http://www.ajeepthing.com/images/2001_cherokee_history.jpg Note the divided rear passenger windows. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 10:20:19 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 03:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319278819.20281.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Brent Allsop declared: >The very goal of canonizer.com, is to find out what EVERYONE, >including people that are still Luddites, wants, concisely and >quantitatively. The more diversity the better. As many transhumanist >as possible should point out that our goal is to first find out what >everyone wants, and have all of that as our goal, never forcing or >denying any of it for anyone. And how do you propose to coerce EVERYONE into revealing what they want? ;> Ben Zaiboc (only half-joking) From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 22 15:54:59 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:54:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters Message-ID: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] suv hipsters Looks like a Jeep Cherokee, to me. -Dave http://www.ajeepthing.com/images/2001_cherokee_history.jpg It has been noted here that artificial intelligence seems to be a moving target. Every time we figure out how to code something, it is no longer artificial intelligence. So here's an interesting case. Imagine that the task at hand is to figure out a way for a computer to identify the make and model of a Detroit using a grainy digital image, as might be produced by a cheapy security camera: One approach I thought of is to look at the linear features, such as the high contrast roof posts. Then I think I could (Myself! A non-software hipster!) write a script that takes horizontal lines of pixels and figures out the equations to back out the four angles shown above. That should be a unique signature for each design. If I get clever with it, I might be able to figure out a way to take the six ratios of the angles, in which case we could compensate for the foreshortening effect when a Detroit is photographed at an angle, as in Dave's link above. Or, use the ratio of major diameter to minor diameter of the rear rim to calculate the angle of view, and compensate that back out. That would be cool, but not AI. Now if we can figure out how to do that, we might be able to create the database to train the software using digital images of Detroits found on the internet. If that software learns how to identify a Detroit using only our algorithm and photos from the internet, that would be sorta how you and I learn how to identify Detroits. That would be artificial intelligence, ja? Cool! Then we get only a few volunteer crimefighters to run the algorithm and set up a digital imager on their mailboxes, let them run constantly, and we can bag the perps by the time they get finished thinking about a crime. Lives can be saved. Property saved. Taxes saved, because we need way fewer cops. Prison space saved, because perps realize it is hopeless as hell, with mechanical eyes everywhere. They go into some other line of business. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 166653 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 46887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Oct 22 17:04:26 2011 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:04:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> Message-ID: <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > Looks like a Jeep Cherokee, to me. -Dave > > http://www.ajeepthing.com/images/2001_cherokee_history.jpg > > Arrgh. I agree. I had to go downtown today and saw many SUVs, but the only ones that looked right were Jeep Cherokee. Specifically there was one parked next to me, a Grand Cherokee, Laredo. It had that same dark lower section and the windows. Apparently my son does not have internect connection at the races, so he's not being helpful with this at all. ;) Of course perhaps he hasn't time yet, being as he is chief of grid there. Regards, MB From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 22 17:51:21 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:51:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00dd01cc90e3$35f498a0$a1ddc9e0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of MB Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 10:04 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters >>... Looks like a Jeep Cherokee, to me. -Dave > >>... http://www.ajeepthing.com/images/2001_cherokee_history.jpg > > >...Arrgh. I agree. I had to go downtown today and saw many SUVs, but the only ones that looked right were Jeep Cherokee. Specifically there was one parked next to me, a Grand Cherokee, Laredo. It had that same dark lower section and the windows. Regards, MB OK so here's what I did. I estimated the fraction of cars on the road which would be white JZ Laredos. As a thought experiment, do that yourself, right now please. OK have your number? Jeep Grand Cherokees are common, so I estimated one in about 200 cars on the road would be a white mid-90s Laredo. Then I drove out this morning with my clicky-counter and went around looking for Jeep Grand Cherokees. Much to my surprise, I was at 1424 cars before I found my first one, and well over 3000 before I saw my second. I went to the places most likely to have older beatermobiles, such as Walmart parking lot and the local wrong side of the tracks neighborhood where most of the residents have converted their garages to living space or rental apartments, so the chariots are parked along the street. In any case, I was over 5000 chariots by the time I arrived home, still with only two of this species collected. So. I would estimate that about 1 in 1500 or so, perhaps one in 2000 chariots on the local street today would roughly fit the photo-description of the perpetrators' chariot. By the way, do let me make it clear that it was not my home which was burglarized, but rather that of a neighbor. In any case, the adjacent city of San Jose has about a megaprole, and there are about 30 megaproles in California and about 20 megachariots registered in this struggling state, so scaling that down, we can estimate about 700 kilochariots in San Jose alone, and if about 1 in 1500 is a white mid-90s Laredo zeej, then we are looking at about 500 of them in San Jose roughly, give or take a factor of 3. If that is the case, and it had been my stuff stolen, I would damn well take the time to drive around the neighborhoods of all 500 registered Laredo addresses looking for one with a single whitewall tire. Question: is there any way to create a public domain database of chariots and correlate it to plate numbers, with a reverse lookup? We know the constables can do this sort of thing, but they will not share that information. Recall that the perps are their clients, and their reason for having gainful employment. If we figured out a way to app every perp, the cops would suffer a wave of layoffs, for their services would not be needed. If we had a network of volunteer go around their own neighborhoods and map species of chariot and its plate number, then we collect it all in some common database somewhere, all volunteer, nothing illegal happening here, then we have it. If such a thing existed, who here would volunteer to do one street? Just note the chariots parked on the street and record the plate numbers with a house number, then drop the info into an enormous database somewhere? All we would need is a spreadsheet, with columns for plate number, chariot species, address(es) seen, time of day, color, and notes for distinguishing features, such as a bashed fender, one whitewall tire, for instance I sure as hell would do it. I would do 20 streets. How many streets would you carmap? Why or why not? spike From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 17:39:29 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:39:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 6:04 PM, MB wrote: > Arrgh. I agree. I had to go downtown today and saw many SUVs, but the only ones that > looked right were Jeep Cherokee. Specifically there was one parked next to me, a > Grand Cherokee, Laredo. It had that same dark lower section and the windows. > > 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo painted "Bright Silver Metallic". [image: 04gc-main.jpg] [image: 04gc-34_front.jpg] [image: 04gc-34_rear.jpg] BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Oct 22 18:58:36 2011 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:58:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: > 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo painted "Bright Silver Metallic". > > > Cool. I think that one is too new, it's curvy and bloated - has a WindozeXP look to it, if you know what I mean. Rounded out and fat. Many 2000+ cars have that look. :( The image spike sent looks earlier to me, more rectangular, condensed, tight. Your site says they were made from 1993 on. The one I saw today was not a beater, IMHO, though it *was* parked at The Dollar Store. ;) Nicely clean and shiny. It was too big, too new, too curvy, but the right windows and the dark lower panel. Dollar Store was having a sale, plus there's a new Tractor Supply store at the same parking lot, along with Chinese take out... Regards, MB From spike66 at att.net Sat Oct 22 19:49:34 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:49:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <012901cc90f3$b9bbb140$2d3313c0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of MB Subject: Re: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters > 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo painted "Bright Silver Metallic". > >> ... http://www.simpson260.com/hosting/jeeps/04jeep.htm> > >...Cool. I think that one is too new, it's curvy and bloated - has a WindozeXP look to it, if you know what I mean. Rounded out and fat. Many 2000+ cars have that look. :( Regards, MB Keep in mind that the rims are often the fingerprint characteristic, since those are changed often. It is a graphic that is easily and cheaply changed from one model year to the next. They only used those five spoke five lug spiral rims on two model years, the 1994 and 1995 Laredos, and possibly some 93s. Here's my next idea. We guys, especially engineering types, only see ten colors clearly. Fortunately there are only ten digits, otherwise we geeks would be unable to read the value of our resistors. But cars come in more colors than that. Non-geeks and many women can distinguish dozens or even scores of colors. So imagine we manage to organize a neighborhood car-map project by volunteers. We need some way to translate some of the more subtle colors into words, many of which we geeks have no clue as the actual definition, especially the more sissy sounding ones, such as taupe, mauve, chartreuse and violet, for instance. We engineering types can only clearly envision black, brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, gray, and white, and of course we know that these correspond to the digits zero through nine. But if you go into the color wheel in Microsloth Word, you see that there are all these choices. There are fifty choices in theme colors alone! Setting aside for the moment the absurdity of having seventy different colors (SEVENTY! As if we can use them all. Or even tell the difference between them.) we can describe a car by most closely matching one of those fifty colors, then describing it row and column in Microsloth word. It looks like this: I don't know the names of most of these theme colors. I see a zero in there, but not one, I see a two and a three, a four through six under standard colors, possibly a seven, not a good eight, but nine is in there in the first row first column. So instead of describing a car with some mysterious adjective such as chartreuse (whatever the heck that is) we find the closest match in the Microsloth table that everyone has right in front of them right now, ja? To add still more absurdity, note that even after showing us seventy colors (SEVENTY!) there is a tab suggesting that there exists STILL MORE COLORS! Your mileage may vary, but I am pretty sure it is all some kind of grand gag the fashion industry is playing on us nerds who know there really are only ten colors. But I digress. In any case, the sleazy perp's 94 or 95 Laredo zeej with the one 00-wall tire is color 00 and my much-loved Mister Lincoln is color 22 approximately. Alternative ideas? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8725 bytes Desc: not available URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 21:43:33 2011 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:43:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/22 spike > One approach I thought of is to look at the linear features, such as the > high contrast roof posts. Then I think I could (Myself! A non-software > hipster!) write a script that takes horizontal lines of pixels and figures > out the equations to back out the four angles shown above. That should be a > unique signature for each design. If I get clever with it, I might be able > to figure out a way to take the six ratios of the angles, in which case we > could compensate for the foreshortening effect when a Detroit is > photographed at an angle, as in Dave?s link above. Or, use the ratio of > major diameter to minor diameter of the rear rim to calculate the angle of > view, and compensate that back out.**** > > ** ** > > That would be cool, but not AI. Now if we can figure out how to do that, > we might be able to create the database to train the software using digital > images of Detroits found on the internet. If that software learns how to > identify a Detroit using only our algorithm and photos from the internet, > that would be sorta how you and I learn how to identify Detroits. That > would be artificial intelligence, ja? **** > > ** ** > > Cool!**** > > ** ** > > Then we get only a few volunteer crimefighters to run the algorithm and set > up a digital imager on their mailboxes, let them run constantly, and we can > bag the perps by the time they get finished thinking about a crime. Lives > can be saved. Property saved. Taxes saved, because we need way fewer > cops. Prison space saved, because perps realize it is hopeless as hell, > with mechanical eyes everywhere. They go into some other line of business. > **** > > ** > Department of Transportation already has plate number and car types (hell, Vehicle Identification Numbers) as well as your yearly mileage - with the transponder they use for "speedpass" at tollbooths, they also know when you last crossed a reader - and they're not just at tollbooths, they use the transponders to report average travel times between two busy points on major highways (and important secondary roads) The traffic cameras in major cities take pictures too, so there's a pretty good chance they know the normal driver of the vehicle and could detect when the car is driven by the spouse or a carjacker. My point is that this data already exists and would likely be trivial to mashup. Granted, proles don't have general access to it - but it'd be cheaper to buy that access than to attempt to recreate it all from whole cloth. So right, how much value was stolen compared to the investment needed for us proles to access the proles-activity database? Yeah, not cost effective. This is the bigger issue. They have all the information. They have all the "rights" to use the information. FOIA ensures that with enough patience we might be able to file the correct forms and wait until the information retrieved has little-to-no value before it is sent in as unusable a form as possible. FOIA gets us government information - but there is really useful information in corporate databases. The proles (whom the data is about) are not allowed to access these databases without the kind of money that large(r) corporations are willing to spend for access rights to mine the information - for those nuggets that make the entry costs worthwhile. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 12:25:24 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:25:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Oxford Message-ID: I?ve moved to Oxford by Eric Drexler on 22 October 2011 Rosa and I now work at Oxford?s Martin School in the new Programme on the Impacts of Future Technology. (My Oxford Martin School bio here; Rosa?s here.) We plan to be at Oxford while I finish work on my new book, Radical Abundance, to be published by PublicAffairs. On November 10th I will deliver the inaugural lecture for the Programme, ?Exploring a timeless landscape: Physical law and the future of nanotechnology?. About the talk Subject: What physics tells us about the potential of advanced nanotechnologies, and why this points to an unexpected future. A methodology grounded in physics and engineering can answer a limited yet illuminating range of questions about the potential of physical technology. This line of inquiry leads to a crucial question: What can physics tell us about the potential of advanced nanotechnologies? Well-established physical principles show that this potential embraces productive nanotechnologies that have the potential to transform the material basis of civilization. This prospect calls for re-evaluating both research opportunities and broader choices with consequences for the human future. If you are in the area and want to schedule an appointment, please contact Rosa at GeographicEngine dot com. -------------- This about a quarter of a mile (as the crow flies) from Anders' lair in Oxford. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 16:52:15 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:52:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Speaking of "The Great Stagnation"... Message-ID: *Tyler Cowen ? The Great Stagnation* Tyler Cowen , professor of economics at George Mason University, gave everyone a wake-up call from the sweet dream about future technologies. Cowen asserts that the US is experiencing a stagnation in innovation that wasn?t apparent even just a couple of generations ago (check out a similar talk he presented at TEDxEast in May 2011 below). What?s more, science is losing its luster among the general public for a variety of reasons, among them the growing gap in income levels between scientists and those in other, more lucrative fields such as finance. This has led to more and more of the brain power moving away from the sciences at a time when innovation and invention are desperately needed to get us past the problems that plague humanity. All these factors put together mean a bleak future for the US unless things change. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 23 16:54:11 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] More on FTL Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <012901cc90f3$b9bbb140$2d3313c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1319388851.44734.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> With a little luck in a few weeks we may know if this neutrino moving faster than light stuff is a bride of cold fusion fiasco or the greatest development in physics since the Quantum Mechanics revolution. http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2011/10/faster-than-light-result-to-be.html?ref=hp "The new measurements will involve a change in the CERN neutrino beam. CERN makes the particles by colliding proton pulses with a graphite target, with each pulse being about 10,500 nanoseconds long. CERN has now split these pulses up so that each one consists of bunches lasting 1 to 2 nanoseconds; bunches are separated by gaps of 500 nanoseconds. The change means that it will be possible to tie each neutrino event recorded inside OPERA to a specific proton bunch, thus enabling a very precise measurement of the time it takes neutrinos to travel between the two labs. Previously, the collaboration had to carry out a statistical analysis to establish the time-of-flight, which involved comparing the temporal distribution of protons generated at CERN with that of the neutrinos detected at Gran Sasso. Critics had argued that this analysis might not be reliable." "Sources suggest that the collaboration will carry out the measurements over a period of 10 days, probably starting next week, and that in that time it should intercept around 12 neutrinos. It's possible that will generate enough data to disprove the announced result, or else to confirm an important part of the analysis behind the result."?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 23 17:18:37 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Speaking of "The Great Stagnation"... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1319390317.12940.YahooMailNeo@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Stefano Vaj?wrote about Tyler Cowen's?remarks: ? > What?s more, science is losing its luster among the general > public for a variety of reasons, among them the growing > gap in income levels between scientists and those in other, > more lucrative fields such as finance. ? When I was undergraduate "80-84" we had about 30% of our students who had moved from the business school to physics, about 30% from engineering to physics, and about 20% from mathematics to physics.? Only a few of us started in physics.? The few exceptional physicists I have met on line in the newer generation have gone from physics to finance or physics research teaching at small one-man-show colleges where they could control their work.? There are real issues going on. ? Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Oct 23 18:30:21 2011 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 14:30:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Speaking of "The Great Stagnation"... In-Reply-To: <1319390317.12940.YahooMailNeo@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1319390317.12940.YahooMailNeo@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21b472cffc266b0767fabd6a7f7017f1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > The few exceptional physicists I have met on > line in the newer generation have gone from physics to finance > or physics research teaching at small one-man-show colleges > where they could control their work. There are real issues > going on. You might want to read "The Fall of the Faculty" by Benjamin Ginsberg. I'm waiting for it to show up at my library (in my dreams). The Scientist had an article about the book (by the author). "A recent study showed that between 1997 and 2007, the number of administrative and support personnel per hundred students increased dramaticaly at most schools - 103% at Williams College; 111% at Johns Hopkins; 325% at Wake Forest University; and 351% at Yeshiva University, to cite some noteworthy examples." (snip) "To faculty members, scholarship and teaching are the lifeblood of academic life, and the university is an instrument necessary to achieve those ends. But to administrators, the faculty's research and teaching activities are, first and foremost, means of generating revenues, not ends in themselves" (snip) "They belive that a college curriculum should be heavily influenced, if not completely governed, by the interests and preferences of potential customers - the students, parents, and others who pay the bills." (snip) "What admistrators do with a good many tuition and research dollars is reward themselves and expand their own ranks. At most schools, even mid-level administrators are now paid more than all but the most senior professors in the professional schools, and considerably more than professors in the arts and sciences." (snip) Things that make you go "hmmmm". Regards, MB From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 23 19:13:33 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Shared "Mind" Database & AI Development References: <1319168665.1139.YahooMailNeo@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EA2E9F8.6050003@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <1319397213.47982.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I wrote: > One of the largest challenges in the development > of AI is financial. Some ten years ago I estimated > my favored approach would take some 2 billion > dollars in lab equipment and infrastructure plus > the budget to keep a minimum of 50 people > involved - call it 100 million per year for 10-15 > years. Adjust for current pricing. ? Alan Grimes wrote: ? > That estimate seems rather pessimistic to me. What > is your reasoning? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolithic_microwave_integrated_circuit My experience in the costing is primarily related to having worked on the MMIC development program as well as graduate classes in sensors, physics based information theory, and assorted optics.? The laboratory where I worked could start from GaAs raw stock and process through to finished MMIC devices - as well as design devices and circuits. ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Electronically_Scanned_Array ? MMIC devices are used to form phased array radars also developed at the lab where I worked.? The analogy?being MMIC's act as the neurons of the phased array radar. ? Other analogies are phased array solid state lasers and massively parallel computers composed of many individual serial processors - also worked on where I went to school. ? The AI design I have in mind would require a lab with similar capabilities plus the ability to fabricate optical devices. ? I would consider the pricing I did to be a bargain.? Alan Grimes wrote: > What do you think your odds of success are? It is my opinion that given the funding and good management a near certainty it could be done in the time frame outlined as long as government doesn't interfere.? It could even be accomplished within a government program if they returned to a management R&D structure more like the 1950s to early 1960's when choking to death on paperwork [excessive overhead, regulation, and external and internal micromanagement] was not as much? an issue. Alan Grimes wrote: > What is your basic approach? The key is the neuron equivalent.? In my approach the processor communicates optically with other processors.? The processors are in an optically friendly 3-D support structure where they can communicate directly with thousands of other processors. I wrote: > This concept would be a continuation of the idea > of a series of minor human upgrades - possibly > involving a kind of smart phone technology and > minor implants and added sensor capability. Alan Grimes wrote: > Why do you think now is the right time to attempt that? We have a whole generation of people hungry for knowledge and prolific with smart phones.? We also have a generation of soldiers who have just been introduced to mobile sensor displays, networking in the field, and computer on person performing tasks for them as they work.? Similar work done in cockpit diplays has now moved to mobile individual users. Alan Grimes wrote: > I would very much like to hear a more detailed proposal. I can think of many applications.? Picking the most?marketable to detail is the trick.? I wrote: ? > The growth of the system > can help pay for the AI work. The AI is > integrated into the network as portions come on > line. It would be expected that over the time > frame of development there would be > improvements in product delivery, improved > sensors, improved implants, and improvements > in the AI structure and ways to integrate it into > the database. Alan Grimes wrote: > Do you think there is a market? How much work > do you think you will need to service that market? You need to create a product in order to generate a market.? The market for automobiles was always there - but the?equipment and infrastructure were not for millenia.? The devices and increasing infrastructure will have to grow together.??You cannot plan up front what?all will be needed?in great detail as it will?evolve depending on the mechanisms produced and how the market?of?customers react to it. Alan Grimes wrote: > My concern about the type of bionic technology > available today is far too primitive and that if you > use it, you'd be boxing yourself into a dead-end > upgrade and would have great difficulty transitioning > to a more powerful technology. The body is resilient > but it is easily injured. A poorly designed upgrade > could do serious damage to both the patient and to > the reputation of transhumanism as a whole. I agree which is why I support the first generation devices using existing sensory input with subtle human interaction - like a smart heads up display with?sound systems.? The military has already been working on eye movement controlled heads up displays and silent digital communication. Integrate into that sophisticated external sensors and wireless capabilities and you have something well beyond smart phones but still no direct medical issues.? The next obvious?step from there is first generation commerical implants taking the most successful processes a step further. I wrote:? > Like anything it would necessarily start small > with a tiny number of applications, sensors, > and implant options. Alan Grimes wrote: > Again, I see AI as a necessary pre-requisite > to a highly capable neural interface. Existing > neural interfaces are problematic for a number > of reasons. Also, they don't really interface with > the brain at an interesting level yet. We can't start from the final answer.? It would be like planning for the interstate highway system based on experience with wagon technology?prior to the railroads. My view: Step one - non-medical upgrades with external senses and processing - more like personal computing assistants and heads up displays. Step two - money from step one funds implant and AI research.? Implant trials before attempting any marketing of product.? AI rearch continues. Step three - 1st generation implant products come on line.? What happens after step three and AI being developed is too far out to project.? At that point everything will snowball very quickly. Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 19:35:37 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:35:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Speaking of "The Great Stagnation"... In-Reply-To: <1319390317.12940.YahooMailNeo@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1319390317.12940.YahooMailNeo@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/23 Dennis May > When I was undergraduate "80-84" we had about 30% > of our students who had moved from the business school to > physics, about 30% from engineering to physics, and about > 20% from mathematics to physics. > Other aspects can be considered. In Italy, if you belong to the faculty in a Physics Dept, you have much better chances to get tenure by writing a nice essay on, say, History of Physics Throughout the Centuries, a subject which can be comfortably researched in libraries by delegating 80% of the work to undergraduates, than by engaging in the seek of some elusive breakthrough that may require impossible-to-obtain grants and face the theoretical hostility of the mainstream. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 19:50:21 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:50:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Shared "Mind" Database & AI Development In-Reply-To: <1319397213.47982.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1319168665.1139.YahooMailNeo@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EA2E9F8.6050003@speakeasy.net> <1319397213.47982.YahooMailNeo@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/23 Dennis May > It could even be accomplished within a > government program if they returned to a management > R&D structure more like the 1950s to early 1960's > when choking to death on paperwork [excessive > overhead, regulation, and external and internal > micromanagement] was not as much an issue. > Nothing like a nice, little Cold War to focus one's mind. :-) And, no, War on Terror is way too artificial and tired a paranoia to produce any dividend other than in the literal sense for those who are making money out of it... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 23 19:50:57 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:50:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <012901cc90f3$b9bbb140$2d3313c0$@att.net> References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <012901cc90f3$b9bbb140$2d3313c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <006801cc91bd$15e5cd10$41b16730$@att.net> Artificial intelligence software can be stupid as all hell and still qualify as AI. Bumper sticker version: AI need not be intelligent, only artificial. I have been having a lot of fun trying to figure out a car-recognition algorithm and I think I have one. It is a memory hog, it is stupid and slow, but at least it's artificial. I have thought of an algorithm for car recognition for which I invite wise counsel from code hipsters and Stanford AI classers. We take 12 pictures of a chariot, every 30 degrees, with front view being defined as the 12 o'clock and the right side view being the 3 o'clock. Then we get a bunch of volunteers to take 12 photos of their ride and collect all. Then we separate them into a collection of 12s, 1s, 2s, etc, so we have 12 files, each with photos of various Detroits taken from a similar angle. That's step 1. Then we take a photo of an arbitrarily chosen auto at an arbitrarily chosen angle. Then, I write an algorithm to recognize the wheels, more specifically the rim elipse. We take the ratio of the vertical apparent diameter to the horizontal (minor diameter) to estimate the angle at which the picture was taken. For instance, if the minor diameter is half the major diameter, then we know it is either a 1, 5, 7 or 11 o'clock photo. Then we look to see if it has either two red or two white features above and to one side, indicating either headlights or tail lights. The white features to the right for instance indicates a 1 o'clock view, two red features to the left of the rear tire indicates it is a 5 o'clock view. Then once we get an angle, we start comparing the test chariot with the collection of photos donated by volunteers. We JPG-ize both, then take horizontal rasters, looking for high contrast patterns in common. The high contrast areas would be the roof columns perhaps. The software would be simple enough, even I might be able to write it. It *might* be able to pick the one from the collection that is the best match. Think that would work? Have we any JPG gurus here? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 22:47:31 2011 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 16:47:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:20 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote: > An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his > debate with Peter Lawler last week: > > http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati I read through this whole thread, and didn't see anyone make the point that we've more or less already made this decision. Today, anyone who wishes to remain relevant to the larger society must, of competitive necessity, become a fyborg. If you don't have your smart phone and computer at the ready, or haven't yet obtained the latest iGadget, then you are viewed as somehow out of touch with the leading edge of the zeitgeist. So, in the competitive sense, we're already coerced into being fyborgs today... how is being transhuman going to be any different than what's already happening? Will those who don't chose enhancement be Amish? Perhaps eventually, but not for a while. They'll just become gradually more irrelevant. Something like today's high school graduates (or worse drop outs). If you're just a high school graduate today, you're treated like a second class citizen by the market place (unless you are a huge outlier.) So my answer is, yes, transhumanism is coercive over the long term, but not as coercive over the shorter term, as these things start to become possible. Look to fyborgization as the model for what will happen in the future. This idea that we all have to be equal nauseates me, btw. -Kelly From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 07:40:19 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:40:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 11:47 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote: > I read through this whole thread, and didn't see anyone make the point > that we've more or less already made this decision. Today, anyone who > wishes to remain relevant to the larger society must, of competitive > necessity, become a fyborg. If you don't have your smart phone and > computer at the ready, or haven't yet obtained the latest iGadget, > then you are viewed as somehow out of touch with the leading edge of > the zeitgeist. > > So, in the competitive sense, we're already coerced into being fyborgs > today... how is being transhuman going to be any different than what's > already happening? > > Will those who don't chose enhancement be Amish? Perhaps eventually, > but not for a while. They'll just become gradually more irrelevant. > Something like today's high school graduates (or worse drop outs). If > you're just a high school graduate today, you're treated like a second > class citizen by the market place (unless you are a huge outlier.) > > I agree with this, but would like to take it a bit further. As tech advances, it looks as though the market place needs fewer and fewer people. So most of the population will be ignored by the market place, except as consumers. And, as we see now, consumers only consume essentials when they don't have spare cash. The world is changing around us. BillK From anders at aleph.se Mon Oct 24 08:56:28 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:56:28 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> On 2011-10-24 00:47, Kelly Anderson wrote: > So, in the competitive sense, we're already coerced into being fyborgs > today... how is being transhuman going to be any different than what's > already happening? Please, let's be careful with the loaded word 'coerce'. It is important, because typically (but not always) we think coercion is wrong or a violation of rights - in any case, the coerced person is regarded as having diminished responsibility for their actions. Looking at the philosophy of coercion, like e.g. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/coercion/ one can note that typically coercion is defined in such a way that there has to be somebody intending to get somebody else to do or not do something. In this regard technology change (or even transhumanism as an idea) cannot be coercive, since there is nobody intending anything. In the case of coercion as social pressure, the moral importance is much more in question - we might like or dislike the process or results, but it is much harder to claim it is morally wrong. > Will those who don't chose enhancement be Amish? There is a cost to chose to stay outside the social mainstream. Some groups willingly pay the cost. Amish are a fine example, especially since they partially reduce the cost by forming their own mini-society and by reduced expectations. The problem is when people both want to stay outside the mainstream but do not want to pay the cost: they must then convince enough of the rest that they have a moral claim to get repaid by the mainstream to cover the cost of what they perceive as exclusion. If I refuse enhancements that make me competitive on grounds of profound philosophical or religious unease, I might have a plausible sounding claim - at least at first. Note that this claim does not work if enhancement is a fringe activity (then the enhancer users might in fact make the claim on the mainstream that *they* ought to be supported - they are exploring potentially useful territory!) Once enhancement is the mainstream the non-enhanced will start to be at a disadvantage they could try to claim a moral compensation for. This might still just be that they benefit from the effects of a more effective society - enhanced people invent useful things, do better jobs, pay more taxes - not necessarily that they get a pension. But one could imagine laws protecting the rights of non-enhanced to remain non-enhanced, running all the way from sensible negative rights to absurd privileges. However, in the long run refusal tends to be worn down (socially and morally). Nobody accepts the "right to remain illiterate" today - children are forced to learn how to read and write, at least partially because otherwise they will be unable to interact with society well as autonomous individuals. Sufficiently good enhancements might be similar: not taking cognition enhancers might make your ability to be autonomous so much lower than everybody elses' that they see it as morally imperative to make sure you get the autonomy. Not giving children the biological resources they might need in order to participate in wider society if they so chose unduly impairs their freedom, so it would be parental neglect not to give them the vaccinations or enhancements they need. So maybe there is coercion here, but it might very well be the legitimate kind of coercion that is used to protect rights. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford University From dennislmay at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 09:52:51 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 02:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> Message-ID: <1319449971.84879.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Anders Sandberg wrote: ? > Once enhancement is the mainstream the non-enhanced > will start to be at a disadvantage they could try to claim > a moral compensation for. ? If enhancement is viewed as bringing an advantage the mindset of many will be to hobble that advantage through taxation, restrictions of various kinds, or using coercive means to provide those advantages to others at no cost or a reduced cost. ? Coercion against enhancement is the more immediate issue. Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Mon Oct 24 10:26:24 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:26:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <1319449971.84879.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> <1319449971.84879.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111024102624.GI20032@leitl.org> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 02:52:51AM -0700, Dennis May wrote: > Anders Sandberg wrote: > ? > > Once enhancement is the mainstream the non-enhanced > > will start to be at a disadvantage they could try to claim > > a moral compensation for. > ? > If enhancement is viewed as bringing an advantage > the mindset of many will be to hobble that advantage > through taxation, restrictions of various kinds, or http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html > using coercive means to provide those advantages > to others at no cost or a reduced cost. > ? > Coercion against enhancement is the more immediate > issue. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:41:37 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:41:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 October 2011 00:47, Kelly Anderson wrote: > I read through this whole thread, and didn't see anyone make the point > that we've more or less already made this decision. Today, anyone who > wishes to remain relevant to the larger society must, of competitive > necessity, become a fyborg. If you don't have your smart phone and > computer at the ready, or haven't yet obtained the latest iGadget, > then you are viewed as somehow out of touch with the leading edge of > the zeitgeist. > Yup, good argument. In fact, the choice was made when we started down the slope of making use of finely carved stone tools and complex social organisations. "Natural" humans willing to relinquish all that have been out of the loop since. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 24 13:34:50 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 06:34:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters In-Reply-To: <4EA50487.8050007@speakeasy.net> References: <007601cc90d2$f3edc680$dbc95380$@att.net> <1d6e2f8d2202303ed0f8abf4a68541ac.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <012901cc90f3$b9bbb140$2d3313c0$@att.net> <006801cc91bd$15e5cd10$41b16730$@att.net> <4EA50487.8050007@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <009301cc9251$b4ea4500$1ebecf00$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: Alan Grimes [mailto:agrimes at speakeasy.net] ubject: Re: [ExI] ai application, was: RE: suv hipsters >> That's step 1. Then we take a photo of an arbitrarily chosen auto at >> an arbitrarily chosen angle. Then, I write an algorithm to recognize > the wheels, more specifically the rim elipse. We take the ratio of the > vertical apparent diameter to the horizontal (minor diameter) to > estimate the angle at which the picture was taken. For instance, if > the minor diameter is half the major diameter, then we know it is > either a 1, 5, 7 or 11 o'clock photo. ;) >And then you come across a car equipped with 4 wheel steering (4WS). ;) The algorithms I have invented will not work for every car, only most of them, and all the ones likely to be used in a crime. For that application, the bad guys want the most generic vehicle on the road, which is probably a white SUV. There are so many of those on the road no one pays attention to them. Ironically, I myself own a white SUV, as does my next door neighbor and the guy across the street, all different brands, all with a similar look. I wouldn't be surprised to learn a white SUV is the ride of choice for daytime burglars. This whole adventure started because the local constabulary sent out a notice that a crime was committed by two lads in a white SUV. This they knew because they had a photograph of it, which they described as a white SUV. This narrows it down to perhaps 1 in 30 vehicles on the road. Knowing the species got it to one in 2000. However... the local police do not want to find this vehicle. Think about it: cities all over California are realizing they must lay off workers, since they have falling revenues as far as the eye can see and increasing costs from retirement pensions. Bad guys on the loose increase demand for their services. So now, it is up to the citizen to find the perps and report it, not to those who are compelled to do nothing, but rather to those who have a motive to do something: the victims' insurance company. Thus my notion that this kind of software needs to be in the hands of the citizens. I thought of an algorithm that doesn't require storing all those photos. We JPG-ize the photo of the perps ride. Then we have it identify the rims, which come in only a few standard sizes. Four sizes take in 99 percent of all cars: if the protestors on Wall Street had cars, they would all be one of these four sizes. So if we take the ratio of the apparent vertical diameters of the front wheel to the rear, we can by parallax estimate the distance of the car. Alternately, using a second view taken simultaneously, we can use that parallax to calculate the distance of the car and use that information to back out which size rim is on the car, of the four choices. Now we have an absolute metric, the easiest one to get from a photo, since tires are black, which creates a high contrast easily identified known round transition at least twice in every side view. Then, with that information and the ratio of the major diameter to the minor diameter of the rim, to pick off an angle, so we can than back out the foreshortening effect. Then we create a straight line tangent to the tops of the two rims, and pick off four pieces of information: the width of the open fenders (2) and the distance to the rear along that line and the distance to the front opposite corner along that line. I think with that information, I would be able to catalog a unique signature for every common car on the road, without having to store all the photos. I also think I could write the algorithm to do it. Tara Maya's husband does this kind of thing professionally. Perhaps they use an algorithm similar to the one described above. It isn't intelligent, but it is artificial. spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:54:38 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:54:38 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 24 October 2011 10:56, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Nobody accepts the "right to remain illiterate" today - children are forced > to learn how to read and write, at least partially because otherwise they > will be unable to interact with society well as autonomous individuals. > I suspect this to be, at least for those who have not abandoned the idea of popular sovereignties, a matter of *collective* freedoms, such as the ones pertaining to the freedom of a given society to give itself the legal system of its choice, which necessarily embodies certain arbitrary values which, without requiring any universalist foundation at all, can well be specific to that society's choices. Even in this context, of course the debate remains open on whether a given society should allow or impose enhancements, rather than prohibiting them. But what is especially nice from a trashumanist POV in political and cultural diversity and relativistic approaches, beyond the possible ability of individuals to escape repression by voting with their feet, is the fact that wildly Luddite inclinations are kept at bay in *all* the societies concerned simply by the pseudo-Darwinian competitive pressures acting *amongst*, rather than *within*, them. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Oct 24 14:08:38 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:08:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kelly, your use of "coercive" is disappointing and incorrect in relation to this thread and transhumanism. And your supposition that "we all have to be equal" is also disturbing because it presupposes a certain homogony, which is anything but the future as presented through the writings and ideas of transhumanism. There is a vast difference between a trend and an enculturalization and a coercive behaviors. The former are based on human psychology, which innate desire is to be similar and to find people who you feel comfortable with and want to emanate. The latter is a vulgar dictatorial insistence. If people tend to prefer one style of use of technology over another, this is a trend and/or a process of enculturalization not a coerciveness act or action. Natasha Natasha Vita-More Chair, Humanity+ PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK Co-Editor, The Transhumanist Reader -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 5:48 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:20 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote: > An interesting article by Ron Bailey over at Reason, concerning his > debate with Peter Lawler last week: > > http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/18/transhumanism-vs-bioconservati I read through this whole thread, and didn't see anyone make the point that we've more or less already made this decision. Today, anyone who wishes to remain relevant to the larger society must, of competitive necessity, become a fyborg. If you don't have your smart phone and computer at the ready, or haven't yet obtained the latest iGadget, then you are viewed as somehow out of touch with the leading edge of the zeitgeist. So, in the competitive sense, we're already coerced into being fyborgs today... how is being transhuman going to be any different than what's already happening? Will those who don't chose enhancement be Amish? Perhaps eventually, but not for a while. They'll just become gradually more irrelevant. Something like today's high school graduates (or worse drop outs). If you're just a high school graduate today, you're treated like a second class citizen by the market place (unless you are a huge outlier.) So my answer is, yes, transhumanism is coercive over the long term, but not as coercive over the shorter term, as these things start to become possible. Look to fyborgization as the model for what will happen in the future. This idea that we all have to be equal nauseates me, btw. -Kelly _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From dennislmay at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 15:45:26 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Dark Energy and Dark Matter in Question Message-ID: <1319471126.97641.YahooMailNeo@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-10-supernovae-universe-expansion-understood-dark.html "While the concept of light?s least-time path seems to be capable of explaining the supernovae data in agreement with the rest of our observations of the universe, Annila notes that it would be even more appealing if this one theoretical concept could solve a few problems at the same time. And it may ? Annila shows that, when gravitational lensing is analyzed with this concept, it does not require dark matter to explain the results. Einstein?s general theory of relativity predicts that massive objects, such as galaxies, cause light to bend due to the way their gravity distorts spacetime, and scientists have observed that this is exactly what happens. The problem is that the deflection seems to be larger than what all of the known (luminous) matter can account for, prompting researchers to investigate the possibility of dark (nonluminous) matter. However, when Annila used Maupertuis? principle of least action to analyze how much a galaxy of a certain mass should deflect passing light, he calculated the total deflection to be about five times larger than the value given by general relativity. In other words, the observed deflections require less mass than previously thought, and it can be entirely accounted for by the known matter in galaxies." Dennis May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:17:37 2011 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:17:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Kelly, your use of "coercive" is disappointing and incorrect in relation to > this thread and transhumanism. I agree with you, I only used the word because it was what the author had used. > And your supposition that "we all have to be > equal" is also disturbing because it presupposes a certain homogony, which > is anything but the future as presented through the writings and ideas of > transhumanism. I don't believe we all have to be equal... I said, "This idea that we all have to be equal nauseates me, btw." So you must be referring to someone else here... > There is a vast difference between a trend and an enculturalization and a > coercive behaviors. The former are based on human psychology, which innate > desire is to be similar and to find people who you feel comfortable with and > want to emanate. The latter is a vulgar dictatorial insistence. ?If people > tend to prefer one style of use of technology over another, this is a trend > and/or a process of enculturalization not a coerciveness act or action. I am not in favor of coerciveness. I am in favor of liberty and choice. If you read differently, I misspoke, or was misread. I think I've been fairly consistent about that. I am in favor of my personal survival, and being on the right side of entropy. -Kelly From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Oct 25 01:42:13 2011 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:42:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Propensity for longer lifespan... Message-ID: <00b72481f7a49a4fdda26c539eb69677.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111020024333.htm Propensity for Longer Life Span Inherited Non-Genetically Over Generations, Study Shows ScienceDaily (Oct. 20, 2011) ? We know that our environment -- what we eat, the toxic compounds we are exposed to -- can positively or negatively impact our life span. But could it also affect the longevity of our descendants, who may live under very different conditions? Recent research from the Stanford University School of Medicine suggests this could be the case. Blocking or modifying the expression of any of three key proteins in a laboratory roundworm increases the life span of not only the original animal, but also that animal's descendents, the researchers found. This occurs even though the original modification is no longer present in the descendants. The finding is the first to show that longevity can be inherited in a non-genetic manner over several generations. It's tempting to translate the findings to humans, who share similar proteins with those studied in the worms in this work. While much more investigation is needed, the research at least hints at the possibility that modifications that occurred in your great-grandparents, perhaps as a result of diet or other environmental conditions, will affect your own life span. "In some ways, this work relates to the idea of inheritance of acquired traits, which is almost heretical because it has long been discounted by the laws of Mendel," said associate professor of genetics Anne Brunet, PhD. "But we show in this study that the transgenerational inheritance of longevity does occur in roundworms via modulations of proteins that normally add epigenetic modifications to chromatin." Brunet is the senior author of the study, published online Oct. 19 in Nature. Former graduate student Eric Greer (now a postdoctoral scholar at Harvard Medical School) is the first author. The term epigenetics describes a process by which organisms modulate their gene expression in response to environmental cues without changing the underlying sequence of their DNA. Chromatin, the tightly coiled complex of DNA and proteins called histones that keeps the genetic material firmly packed in the cells' nucleus, can be modified in an epigenetic manner by addition or removal of chemical tags on histones or DNA itself. Although most chromatin modifications are reset between generations during the process of reproduction, this study suggests that such reprogramming is incomplete in some cases. The current research builds on a previous study from Brunet's laboratory that showed that mutations in several chromatin regulators can increase the life span of a laboratory roundworm known as Caenorhabditis elegans by as much as 30 percent. Interestingly, these chromatin regulators control life span by functioning at least in part in the worm's reproductive system, or germ line. That research was published in Nature last year. Greer and Brunet wondered whether the effect on life span of these chromatin regulators would be conveyed to the worms' descendants, even when the mutations were no longer present. To answer this question, Greer individually mutated each of the genes encoding three proteins -- ASH-2, WDR-5 and SET-2 -- involved in the chromatin regulatory complex that adds methyl groups to a specific histone in chromatin. The methyl groups work to lock chromatin in an open configuration that is accessible for gene expression. Greer then bred the worms in such a way that their descendants would no longer have the mutations. He found that the descendants with normal levels of expression of these three proteins (but with ancestors that were deficient for them) still lived longer than descendants from un-mutated ancestors. This longer life span persisted, in some cases for up to three generations, but did eventually disappear and the worms reverted to a normal life span. When he compared the gene expression profiles of long-lived descendants of mutant ancestors with those of control worms, Greer found several hundred genes whose changes in expression were also inherited. "We still don't know the exact mechanism of this epigenetic memory of longevity between generations," said Brunet. "We hypothesize that when the parental generation is missing key components that normally regulate chromatin, epigenetic marks are not completely reset from one generation to the next in the germ line, thereby inducing heritable changes in gene expression. It will be very interesting to understand how this happens. "We are also curious as to whether environmental factors that can affect longevity, like calorie restriction, could also affect subsequent generations," she said. In addition to Greer and Brunet, other Stanford researchers involved in the study include postdoctoral scholars Travis Maures, PhD, Duygu Ucar, PhD, Elena Mancini, PhD, and B?r?nice Benayoun, PhD; graduate student Jana Lim; and undergraduate Anna Hauswirth. The research was supported by the National Institutes of Health, the Glenn Foundation for Medical Research and a Helen Hay Whitney Postdoctoral Fellowship. Journal Reference: 1. Eric L. Greer, Travis J. Maures, Duygu Ucar, Anna G. Hauswirth, Elena Mancini, Jana P. Lim, B?r?nice A. Benayoun, Yang Shi, Anne Brunet. Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance of longevity in Caenorhabditis elegans. Nature, 2011; DOI: 10.1038/nature10572 From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 25 04:11:51 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <009301cc9251$b4ea4500$1ebecf00$@att.net> Message-ID: <1319515911.21870.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boOKTFM6eG8&feature=related - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 08:06:49 2011 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:06:49 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <1319515911.21870.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <009301cc9251$b4ea4500$1ebecf00$@att.net> <1319515911.21870.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An interesting documentary. One part is rather silly. That the jump trough another brane, or a hyperspace jump we know it already from StarTreks, is to blame for an apparent neutrino speeding. Is there a StarGate somewhere deep under the state of Italy? Or how another brane is coined to our world exactly there? Earth bounded for at least all those neutrinos traveled until now? The joke however told, is especially deep one. Bartender: "We don't serve the neutrinos!" And a neutrino walks in the bar. 2011/10/25 john clark > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boOKTFM6eG8&feature=related > > - > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Oct 25 09:35:56 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:35:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> Message-ID: <4EA682FC.9030300@aleph.se> Stefano Vaj wrote: > On 24 October 2011 10:56, Anders Sandberg > wrote: > > Nobody accepts the "right to remain illiterate" today - children > are forced to learn how to read and write, at least partially > because otherwise they will be unable to interact with society > well as autonomous individuals. > > > I suspect this to be, at least for those who have not abandoned the > idea of popular sovereignties, a matter of *collective* freedoms, such > as the ones pertaining to the freedom of a given society to give > itself the legal system of its choice, which necessarily embodies > certain arbitrary values which, without requiring any universalist > foundation at all, can well be specific to that society's choices. The motivations for mandatory schooling are a mixed lot, with plenty of weak arguments. But the autonomy argument does have some strength: if you lack the resources to participate in the cooperative core of your society, your options become severely restricted. This has always been true, but becomes more obvious in complex societies where you need many skills that are not trivial to acquire on your own. This seems to be a fairly universalist motivation to why it might be legitimate to make everyone literate. It is society- and tech-dependent in the sense of what skills are important, but if one accepts the (universalist) idea that all people have a right to try to live a life that is as free and meaningful as possible, then there may be something that has to be provided by others in order to enable bootstrapping into a fully functioning autonomous citizen. We cannot assume nature or the parents have (or are able to) provide these resources. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University From sparge at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 12:40:38 2011 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:40:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?John_McCarthy_=97_Father_of_AI_and_Lisp_?= =?windows-1252?q?=97_Dies_at_84?= Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/10/john-mccarthy-father-of-ai-and-lisp-dies-at-84/ When IBM?s Deep Blue supercomputer won its famous chess rematch with then world champion Garry Kasparov in May 1997, the victory was hailed far and wide as a triumph of artificial intelligence. But John McCarthy ? the man who coined the term and pioneered the field of AI research ? didn?t see it that way. As far back as the mid-60s, chess was called the ?Drosophila of artificial intelligence? ? a reference to the fruit flies biologists used to uncover the secrets of genetics ? and McCarthy believed his successors in AI research had taken the analogy too far. ?Computer chess has developed much as genetics might have if the geneticists had concentrated their efforts starting in 1910 on breeding racing Drosophila,? McCarthy wrote following Deep Blue?s win. ?We would have some science, but mainly we would have very fast fruit flies.? According Daphne Koller ? a professor in the Stanford AI Lab who still carries the torch for McCarthy?s orthodox vision of artificial intelligence ? it?s a quote that sums up both McCarthy and his work. ?The word that bests describes him is ?uncompromising?,? she tells Wired. ?He believed in artificial intelligence in terms of building an artifact that could actually replicate human level intelligence, and because of this, we was very unhappy with a lot AI today, which provides some very useful applications but focuses on machine learning. ?He wanted AI to pass the Turing test.? John McCarthy died on Monday at the age of 84, according to Stanford University, where he served on the faculty for almost four decades. In organizing the Dartmouth Summer Research Conference on Artificial Intelligence in 1956, McCarthy not only added a term to the popular lexicon, he founded an entirely new area of research alongside fellow pioneers Marvin Minsky, Nathaniel Rochester, and Claude Shannon. In the years to come, he would go on invent LISP ? one of the world?s most influential programming languages ? and he played a major role in the development of time-sharing systems. ?Without time-sharing, you wouldn?t have the modern internet,? says Lester Earnest, who worked with McCarthy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in the late fifties and later at the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Lab (SAIL), the research operation McCarthy helped found in 1962. But for all his influence over today?s world, McCarthy envisioned something much greater. Says Google?s Sebastian Thrun, who revived SAIL in 2003 before joining Google to build the company?s self-driving cars: ?When it came to artificial intelligence, he was a philosopher.? Sharing Time Lester Earnest first encountered McCarthy at MIT while working on the government?s Semi-Automatic Ground Environment (SAGE) defense system ? an early computer network that allowed multiple users to access the system at the same time ? and according to Earnest, SAGE inspired McCarthy?s work on time-sharing. ?He was first to come up with an idea of how to do time-sharing in a general purpose way, as opposed to special purpose,? Earnest says. A McCarthy paper gave rise to the Compatible Time-Sharing System (CTSS) ? which was demonstrated at MIT in 1961 ? and a similar system McCarthy helped build at Bolt, Beranek and Newman, a private consultancy that would later play a big part in the founding of the internet. But for McCarthy, time-sharing took a backseat to AI. At MIT, he founded an ?AI group? alongside fellow Dartmouth artificial intelligence pioneer Marvin Minsky, and this eventually spawned the university?s Project Mac, a DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency)-funded effort that would help lead the field for years. While at MIT, McCarthy developed LISP, which became the standard programming language of the artificial intelligence community, but would also permeate the computing world at large. Today, it?s the second oldest high-level programming language still in use ? after Fortran. But unlike Fortran, it?s still feeding new languages. ?[McCarthy] really encapsulated what computation meant,? says Peter Norvig, the director of research at Google, pointing to modern languages like JavaScript and Python as Lisp?s successors. ?To some extent, that had been done before. People like Turing had a mathematical way of defining computing. But he was the first one to really put the essence of computing into a simple programming language, and that had a big effect on a lot of people.? SAIL and beyond As Project Mac evolved, McCarthy left for Stanford, where he founded SAIL, a longtime rival to the MIT effort. Lester Earnest would later join McCarthy at the lab, and he sees it as a place that helped spawn so much the modern tech world ? a notion that?s seconded by Google?s Sebastian Thrun, who points to everything from the robotics work done at SAIL to the user interface and programming work. Earnest says the lab?s influence is exemplified by Alan Kay, who studied at the lab before moving onto the Palo Alto Research Center (PARC), where he invented object-oriented programming with his SmallTalk language, citing McCarthy and Lisp as a major influence. Kay would later call Lisp the ?greatest single programming language ever designed.? In the 80s and 90s, the lab fell out of favor. ?AI went through a winter period,? says Google?s Sebastian Thrun. ?There was a mismatch between the promises that were made and reality. People realized we couldn?t duplicate human intelligence.? But in 2003, Thrun revived SAIL and ? in at least some ways ? the McCarthy spirit. Like Daphne Koller, Thrun says that today?s AI work didn?t always agree with McCarthy?s sensibilities. ?In my mind, Google is all about artificial intelligence,? he says. ?But McCarthy was troubled by this. He would come to me regularly and tell me I was doing the wrong thing.? Thrun would respectfully disagree. ?I know how to do my thing right, not your thing,? he would tell McCarthy. But Thrun acknowledges that one day, McCarthy will win the day. ?What he stood for matters,? Thrun says. ?The point will come when we do understand human reasoning.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 14:46:08 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:46:08 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4EA682FC.9030300@aleph.se> References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> <4EA682FC.9030300@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 25 October 2011 11:35, Anders Sandberg wrote: > It is society- and tech-dependent in the sense of what skills are important, > but if one accepts the (universalist) idea that all people have a right to > try to live a life that is as free and meaningful as possible, then there > may be something that has to be provided by others in order to enable > bootstrapping into a fully functioning autonomous citizen. We cannot assume > nature or the parents have (or are able to) provide these resources. The problem with really "universal" political/ethical principles is that the tend to be empty. I do not know of many authors, movements or for that matter people, in any cultural or historical context, who have actually preached the need to live a life as unfree and meaningless as possible. Moreover, what a fully-functioning citizen may represent has more than a little to do with the kind of community he is required to function in. Where our approaches however converge, in contrast with radical libertarian positions, is that I am tentatively inclined to take a stance for the freedom of a given community to enforce what it perceives as protective and enabling measures - such as compulsory minimum attendance to educational programmes, or general vaccination campaigns - even though I would practically advocate for a very prudent and diversity-oriented use of such freedom in the one I belong to. This may not resolve the famous conflict between a shared view of optimality that prescribes to choose deaf embryos over "normal" ones, and the opposite view of the inclusive community that would prescribe the opposite, but of course one level needs to be identified where such choices are made - by definition the "political" level. As long as it is not a "global" one, I am fine with that. :-) -- Stefano Vaj From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 25 16:47:10 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319561230.48420.YahooMailClassic@web82901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Tue, 10/25/11, Tomaz Kristan wrote: "An interesting documentary. One part is rather silly. That the jump trough another brane, or a hyperspace jump we know it already from StarTreks, is to blame for an apparent neutrino speeding.?Is there a StarGate somewhere deep under the state of Italy? Or how another brane is coined to our world exactly there?" Well, just speculating here but..., it would be odd indeed if there just happened to be a StarGate between Geneva Switzerland and Gran Sasso Italy, odd unless that was just one of a trillion trillion other StarGates that went from Geneva to somewhere else. Maybe that's one reason neutrinos are so hard to detect, maybe when they go from X to Y a few find the right StarGate and make it to Y faster than light, but the vast majority of neutrinos go through other StarGates and never make it to Y at all. Or maybe the explanation is that the batteries in someone's pocket calculator got low and produced a incorrect sum.? ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:19:19 2011 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 19:19:19 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <1319561230.48420.YahooMailClassic@web82901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319561230.48420.YahooMailClassic@web82901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Or maybe the explanation is that the batteries in someone's pocket calculator got low and produced a incorrect sum. That was, of course, the most probable cause of this ... situation we have here. But now this probability ... is gradually falling down. With each day passed, it is smaller. And the time is coming when we should ask ourselves, what is here for us? At least in a scientific way. I don't think, that there is a time travel. Einstein's theory is probably too damaged, that the reasoning along those lines "relativity may permit the time travel" is any good. We should go back to the drawing board where the old good broken MM experiment is still waiting for us. I have no idea, and no suggestions what might be the truth about all this. Of course not. - Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timhalterman at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:36:12 2011 From: timhalterman at gmail.com (Tim Halterman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:36:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: References: <1319561230.48420.YahooMailClassic@web82901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A neutrino leaves our dimension and in the process pushes an seemingly identical neutrino into ours in another location further down a supposed path. The individual could be identical to what left our dimension, and it would appear that they had travelled through time to us.. but in fact the individual who orginially travelled is in another dimension and the individual we see before us has a different history than the one that left. or it could be a bad battery.... -Tim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:32:12 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:32:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: How you fix congress! by Warren Buffett In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So...how do we actually get this even considered by state legislatures? Doing this as anything less than a Constitutional amendment will get silently repealed within a couple years. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Warren Buffett, "I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "You just pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election. The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple! The people demanded it. That was in 1971...before computers, e-mail, cell phones, etc. Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took 1 year or less to become the law of the land...all because of public pressure. Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. In three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed around. *Congressional Reform Act of 2011* 1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they are out of office. 2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose. 3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do. 4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%. 5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people. 6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people. 7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congressmen made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term's), then go home and back to work. If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S.) to receive the message. Maybe it is time. THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS!!!!! If you agree with the above, pass it on. __________________________________________________________________ -- Steve Andersen - The most formidable enemy of democracy is the unchecked disparity of wealth. __._,_.___ Reply to sender| Reply to group| Reply via web post| Start a New Topic Messages in this topic( 1) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group This message came to you through the SFRM Telegraph. Please address any public reply to SFRM-Discussion at yahoogroups.com. For more information see www.sfmensa.org/m2m.html MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. [image: Yahoo! Groups] Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest? Unsubscribe? Terms of Use . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:25:18 2011 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:25:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:56 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2011-10-24 00:47, Kelly Anderson wrote: >> >> So, in the competitive sense, we're already coerced into being fyborgs >> today... how is being transhuman going to be any different than what's >> already happening? > First off, let me say that I really enjoyed reading your post Anders... very well thought out. Makes me proud to be an Anderson... :-) > Please, let's be careful with the loaded word 'coerce'. It is important, > because typically (but not always) we think coercion is wrong or a violation > of rights - in any case, the coerced person is regarded as having diminished > responsibility for their actions. Absolutely... the only reason I used the word was because the prior author had. Being impelled by market forces to make a decision that one would not otherwise make isn't EXACTLY coercion. Though there are people who feel coerced into shopping at Walmart... so I use the word in that very limited sense. > Looking at the philosophy of coercion, like e.g. > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/coercion/ > one can note that typically coercion is defined in such a way that there has > to be somebody intending to get somebody else to do or not do something. In > this regard technology change (or even transhumanism as an idea) cannot be > coercive, since there is nobody intending anything. Instead, there are a lot of folks intending a lot of things... so the question can be rephrased like this, "Is the marketplace coercive?" And in some ways it does force you to certain behaviors. It would be very difficult in today's world to revert to a hunter-gatherer or nomadic lifestyle because of property rights. That lifestyle is no longer supportable in our world. Governments are coercive and they have eliminated certain lifestyle choices. Governments respond to technological and market place advancement. It is conceivable, in fact predictable, that with the coming changes, that governments around the world will pass laws that will have profound impact on people's lives in ways that we cannot currently fully predict. > In the case of coercion > as social pressure, the moral importance is much more in question - we might > like or dislike the process or results, but it is much harder to claim it is > morally wrong. So we have two kinds of "coercion", the soft coercion of the marketplace, the Darwinian survival pressures, and the hard coercion of government. So how governments respond to transhumanism is likely to be where most of the hard coercion comes from... and the marketplace will place it's own subtle pressures on people to conform to the new zeitgeist of tomorrow's technology. >> Will those who don't chose enhancement be Amish? > > There is a cost to chose to stay outside the social mainstream. Some groups > willingly pay the cost. Amish are a fine example, especially since they > partially reduce the cost by forming their own mini-society and by reduced > expectations. In their eyes, they have increased expectations out of life... but that is an aside. The real question in my mind is whether the Amish will be able to continue their lifestyle... or will they be perceived at some future point as not worth the bother... so much primordial slime covering valuable real estate and taking up resources that could be more profitably employed by a much higher intelligence... or grey goo... I, for one, hope that the Amish will be granted their independence indefinitely. That they will be left alone, much as we set aside National Parks today. I think this bodes well for other groups that at some point along the curve to the Singularity opt out... and there will be many other such groups as the changes start to affect what we view as being human. Many will want to stay human. Many will accept the evolution to the myriad future forms... I think that what is coming will make the Cambrian Explosion look pretty meek in comparison... and it's going to be a bumpy ride in all likelihood. We have enjoyed our place as the sole rulers of the earth... but that ride is going to quickly come to an end... we will no longer be the dominant intelligence... we will not be alone... and hopefully whatever comes next will not see us as inconvenient... > The problem is when people both want to stay outside the > mainstream but do not want to pay the cost: they must then convince enough > of the rest that they have a moral claim to get repaid by the mainstream to > cover the cost of what they perceive as exclusion. Enter socialism. I agree that this is a major problem, and this is a really great point Anders... One question that clearly enters in here is how the political future will work... will it continue to be one person, one vote? Will you get a vote proportional to your intelligence? How will government work in a future of continued limited resources? Sure, going off world will relieve pressures to some extent... if we can figure out FTL travel, or somehow put ourselves into stasis for long long trips... but for the local environment, it's resource limited, no matter how many resources we perceive are out there, exponential growth will soon gobble them all up... and the Darwinian competition begins at that new level. So if somehow people maintain their exclusive hold on political power, one human one vote, then perhaps socialism will win to the extent that the machines will care for the humans... but how long can that last? > If I refuse enhancements that make me competitive on grounds of profound > philosophical or religious unease, I might have a plausible sounding claim - > at least at first. Yes... most claims on socialism sound reasonable on the surface... and only when you dig deeper into the "unintended consequences" of servicing those claims do the real dark aspects of socialist solutions come out of the wood work. > Note that this claim does not work if enhancement is a > fringe activity (then the enhancer users might in fact make the claim on the > mainstream that *they* ought to be supported - they are exploring > potentially useful territory!) Yet whatever liberty remains will hopefully be enough for them to be allowed to explore this territory. I'm uninterested in the government footing the bill. Whoever writes the checks makes the rules... > Once enhancement is the mainstream the > non-enhanced will start to be at a disadvantage they could try to claim a > moral compensation for. This might still just be that they benefit from the > effects of a more effective society - enhanced people invent useful things, > do better jobs, pay more taxes - not necessarily that they get a pension. > But one could imagine laws protecting the rights of non-enhanced to remain > non-enhanced, running all the way from sensible negative rights to absurd > privileges. And with the socialist zeitgeist around the world gaining a foot hold, I tend to think we'll see at least pockets of absurd privileges. They'll say, "but the machines are all millionaires and billionaires, surely they can pay their fair share"... sounds familiar, doesn't it? :-) > However, in the long run refusal tends to be worn down (socially and > morally). Nobody accepts the "right to remain illiterate" today - children > are forced to learn how to read and write, at least partially because > otherwise they will be unable to interact with society well as autonomous > individuals. Sufficiently good enhancements might be similar: not taking > cognition enhancers might make your ability to be autonomous so much lower > than everybody elses' that they see it as morally imperative to make sure > you get the autonomy. Not giving children the biological resources they > might need in order to participate in wider society if they so chose unduly > impairs their freedom, so it would be parental neglect not to give them the > vaccinations or enhancements they need. One interesting historical precedent here is the American Indian... the reservation system might become a model for how to handle the unenhanced. It's not a spectacularly inspirational thought... but perhaps better than wiping them out. > So maybe there is coercion here, but it might very well be the legitimate > kind of coercion that is used to protect rights. I think the most interesting thoughts along these lines come from clearly separating the influences of the marketplace from the coercion of the government. Both of these forces are going to be influenced by the future march of technology. But the responses will be different. And don't forget that there are multiple governments (at least today) that complicate the situation, and make it nearly certain that many parallel experiments will go forward to different ends. Yummy food for thought Anders! -Kelly From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 19:08:43 2011 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:08:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: References: <1319561230.48420.YahooMailClassic@web82901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > > > A neutrino leaves our dimension and in the process pushes an seemingly identical neutrino into ours in another location further down a supposed path. Yes, well, but that way it already transmits some information from Geneva to Gran Sasso. Extra dimensions are not at alll helpful. > > or it could be a bad battery.... > > We are not that lucky, I am afraid. Maybe, we will have neutrino links from Tokyo to New York for the stock market. Could be usefull. - Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 19:46:08 2011 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:46:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:00 AM, Anders Sandberg > wrote: snip > We cannot assume nature or the parents have (or are able to) > provide these resources. No, but it's not hard to imagine an infectious agent that would build a neural interface into every person it infects (perhaps everyone) which would give them access to the totality of information available to humans. It's not hard to project current smart cell phones into this development path. Keith From anders at aleph.se Tue Oct 25 20:53:20 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:53:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA721C0.2070803@aleph.se> Keith Henson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:00 AM, Anders Sandberg > wrote: > > >> We cannot assume nature or the parents have (or are able to) >> provide these resources. >> > > No, but it's not hard to imagine an infectious agent that would build > a neural interface into every person it infects (perhaps everyone) > which would give them access to the totality of information available > to humans > Or a GPS transponder/ID tag, making sure nobody was ever lost. Or an implanted, infectious e-meter for instant engram detection. (sorry) The technological feasibility of something doesn't mean it is a good idea. Mandatory things must be scrutinized with extra concern: because they might not actually fulfill the need they are intended to fulfill, the moral need might not actually be so compelling that it is worth the infringement of rights, or because they might have side effects that make them unsuitable. Errors are much more grave than in the case of voluntary things since they get imposed on the whole population. > It's not hard to project current smart cell phones into this development path. > Charles Stross said it well: the next generation will never be alone, lost or forget. However, there is a great deal of difference between having lots of smartphones because they are so darn nifty and a rule that everybody must carry one. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 21:09:47 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 23:09:47 +0200 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4EA721C0.2070803@aleph.se> References: <4EA721C0.2070803@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 25 October 2011 22:53, Anders Sandberg wrote: > However, there is a great deal of difference between having lots of > smartphones because they are so darn nifty and a rule that everybody must > carry one. I think that difference between legal rules and social norms are, for the best and for the worst, overestimated. The latter can be as "coercive" as the second. The former may be at the end of the day less hypocritical and more open to critique. -- Stefano Vaj From sparge at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 21:30:29 2011 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:30:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: How you fix congress! by Warren Buffett In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/25 Adrian Tymes > So...how do we actually get this even considered by state legislatures? Simple: don't vote for a congressional candidate who doesn't endorse it and don't vote for any member of congress who votes against it. Of course it's going to take widespread public awareness and support to get on the radar. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 22:00:22 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:00:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: How you fix congress! by Warren Buffett In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/25 Dave Sill : > 2011/10/25 Adrian Tymes >> So...how do we actually get this even considered by state legislatures? > > Simple: don't vote for a congressional candidate who doesn't endorse it and > don't vote for any member of congress who votes against it. Of course it's > going to take widespread public awareness and support to get on the radar. I said state legislatures. If it comes up in Congress, here's how it'll go: 1. Refer to Committee Of Safe Districts, which is staffed exclusively by Congresspeople who have run unchallenged for a while, and whose districts have proven completely unable to provide serious (or, preferably, any) challengers. 2. Kill it in said committee. 3. Everyone who might possibly take flak from not supporting it is free to swear they would have voted for it had it come up for a vote, but Those Other People didn't allow it. Congress has gotten very good at this formula. From anders at aleph.se Tue Oct 25 22:35:22 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 23:35:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> Message-ID: <4EA739AA.6080504@aleph.se> Kelly Anderson wrote: > First off, let me say that I really enjoyed reading your post > Anders... very well thought out. Makes me proud to be an Anderson... > :-) > So we have two kinds of "coercion", the soft coercion of the > marketplace, the Darwinian survival pressures, and the hard coercion > of government. So how governments respond to transhumanism is likely > to be where most of the hard coercion comes from... and the > marketplace will place it's own subtle pressures on people to conform > to the new zeitgeist of tomorrow's technology. > Don't forget the cultural and social pressure. How often do you do things because it is what is expected of people in your role? (whether that role is student, rebel, male, Newfoundlander, ...) A lot of these behaviors are induced by our surrounding culture. And there is a tremendous amount of feedback going on that deeply affects our behavior: Right now a lot of new foreign students have come to Oxford. They do not understand the subtle rules of British queues. So they misbehave (in the eyes of us locals) and get subtle feedback - frowns, averted eyes, bodies turned slightly so that elbows point in their direction. Within a few months they will behave like the rest of us do in the queues. Transhumanism will become part of this system of culture and social pressure if it becomes mainstream. What kind of enhancement school do you go for? How do you live up to the informal norms of proper enhancement behavior? > The real question in my mind is whether the Amish > will be able to continue their lifestyle... or will they be perceived > at some future point as not worth the bother... And this is why one should care about property rights and similar things. If the primordial slime owns shares in the higher intelligence it will tend to treat the slime well if property rights are preserved. The Amish are unlikely to be in trouble since they have a sufficiently protected niche within the US society cooperative core: rights are mutually recognized, there is enough feedback to handle changes in the surrounding social matrix. There are no doubt limits to how isolated a group can be and still enjoy proper protection, but the Amish show that they can be pretty wide. >> The problem is when people both want to stay outside the >> mainstream but do not want to pay the cost: they must then convince enough >> of the rest that they have a moral claim to get repaid by the mainstream to >> cover the cost of what they perceive as exclusion. >> > > Enter socialism. I'm not sure what you mean by socialism here and onwards. It doesn't sound like you are referring to the economic or political system. Note that the above demand can be made to any kind of society, for any reason - and might be granted for equally diverse reasons. When people give food to begging monks, they might do that for the rationally selfish reason of improving their karma. > I'm uninterested in the government > footing the bill. Whoever writes the checks makes the rules... > That is an interesting problem with demanding compensation for being excluded. If you are compensated for not fitting in you become somewhat dependent on the rest of society (even if the compensation is non-monetary, like moral support). If you want to remain truly independent you cannot claim compensation. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 03:23:40 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:23:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Halloween costumes Message-ID: What will your Halloween costume be this year? : ) I would think transhumanists would enjoy Halloween in terms of having an excuse to "morph" into a robot, cyborg, astronaut, or other futurist themed character. I took this from the very cool i09.com website: Halloween! It's the time of the year when some of us get dolled up in our finest regalia, and others have trouble remembering it's October. If you're the kind of overworked, absent-minded, or just unabashedly antisocial individual who has no time or patience for the holiday, here are twenty cosplaying ideas. They'll get you into the party, but won't win you any costume (or charm) competitions. 1.) Dress as the Black Monolith from 2001. Black pants, black turtleneck, better-than-average posture. 2.) Wear your normal clothing. You're Mystique, undercover. 3.) Don a crimson cardigan and cryptically intone, "I'm the one that got away." 4.) Draw a lightning bolt on the left side of your head (your left). Proclaim you're Bizarro Harry Potter. 5.) Crook both of your elbows and a transform your hands into two crooked peace signs. If anybody asks, you're "Human Hubris." 6.) Affix a blue triangle to your head and noncommittally hum "Going Back To Cali." If anybody asks, you're "Human Hubris." 7.) Wear your normal clothing. Loudly announce, "Dennis Quaid is inside me!" 8.) Smear a spot of jam on your sleeve. Inform your peers that you're the Incredible Melting Man, but at the beginning of the movie. 9.) Wear your normal clothing. If anybody asks who you are, assert that you're yourself "but in a parallel universe where this conversation never happened." 10.) Pull a Corey Hart. You're in the Matrix! 11.) Wear your normal clothing. "You know, like The Sixth Day!" 12.) On a similar note, everyone loves a party-goer who can only say, "Two weeks!" 13.) Wear a top hat. Dracula wore a top hat, right? 14.) Insist that your own rapidly jangling house keys are robots in disguise. 15.) Two words: drunk bodysnatcher. 16.) Exasperatedly explain again and again that you're "wearing the same t-shirt as the sidekick from the direct-to-DVD B-movie we once watched that one time a few years back. I can't believe you forgot that." 17.) If toilet paper becomes stuck to your shoe, capitalize on that. You're a mummy who just doesn't give a fuck. 18.) Vinz Clortho never combed his hair. 19.) Chances are your pals won't know what Azathoth the Blind Idiot God looks like, and you'll win social capital for being both bold yet self-effacing. 20.) If anyone inquires of your regalia, simply grumble, "Halloween, such a human contrivance." Then beeline for the punch bowl. >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 03:26:43 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:26:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the iconic Tom Swift series Message-ID: I have very fond memories of reading a number of books in the still popular Tom Swift science fiction series. I thought we could start up a discussion thread about this and share our memories. Ray Kurzweil has one of the series (I think the second) in his office, and he says as a boy it helped inspire him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Swift John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 26 04:02:07 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:02:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Halloween costumes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001f01cc9394$0817eb90$1847c2b0$@att.net> On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Halloween costumes >.What will your Halloween costume be .excuse to "morph" into a robot, cyborg, astronaut, or other futurist themed character. An astronaut is not a future themed character, it's retro themed. The whole space program seems like a piece of 21st century techno-adventure, ripped out of its time and dropped into the middle of the 20th century. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 04:24:05 2011 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:24:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > Keith Henson wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:00 AM, ?Anders Sandberg > wrote: >> >> >>> We cannot assume nature or the parents have (or are able to) >>> provide these resources. >>> >> >> No, but it's not hard to imagine an infectious agent that would build >> a neural interface into every person it infects (perhaps everyone) >> which would give them access to the totality of information available >> to humans >> > > Or a GPS transponder/ID tag, making sure nobody was ever lost. Or an > implanted, infectious e-meter for instant engram detection. (sorry) We need an app for that! > The technological feasibility of something doesn't mean it is a good > idea. I didn't mean to even *imply* it was a good idea, just that it was not hard to imagine. > Mandatory things must be scrutinized with extra concern: because > they might not actually fulfill the need they are intended to fulfill, > the moral need might not actually be so compelling that it is worth the > infringement of rights, or because they might have side effects that > make them unsuitable. Errors are much more grave than in the case of > voluntary things since they get imposed on the whole population. > > >> It's not hard to project current smart cell phones into this development path. >> > Charles Stross said it well: the next generation will never be alone, > lost or forget. > Stefano Vaj wrote. > > On 25 October 2011 22:53, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> However, there is a great deal of difference between having lots of >> smartphones because they are so darn nifty and a rule that everybody must >> carry one. > > I think that difference between legal rules and social norms are, for > the best and for the worst, ?overestimated. The latter can be as > "coercive" as the second. The former may be at the end of the day less > hypocritical and more open to critique. Well said. I suspect that most of us feel akin to being naked in public when realize we have left our cell phone at home. >From what I have seen, most of the homeless have cell phones (ghod knows where they charge them). Keith From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 26 05:21:05 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:21:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai application: was RE: Halloween costumes Message-ID: <003b01cc939f$109fe820$31dfb860$@att.net> On Behalf Of spike Subject: Re: [ExI] Halloween costumes On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Halloween costumes >>.What will your Halloween costume be .excuse to "morph" into a robot, cyborg, astronaut, or other futurist themed character. >An astronaut is not a future themed character, it's retro themed. .spike If I can figure out a way to do it, I want to dress up as a rim. In the old days, John, we had hub caps, but those are gone now, for a long time. Now its rims, which I confess I never noticed before this past weekend, being a motorcycle guy and not a car guy. But suddenly everything changed, when I realized the rims are the best bet for identifying a car. Since about mid 90s, every model year uses a different rim. Look at them: there is some subtle difference in every model year. Even long production runs of models that don't change much, such as pickups and SUVs, will have different rims every year. They never reuse and old design. Since we already know the shape and know that it is probably one of four sizes, we can scale a photograph of a rim, rotate the photo so that one of the axially symmetric features is vertical, count the number of axially symmetrical features (usually five, six, or eight) then with that information, compare it with a catalog of known rims. So far, that is the best algorithm I can think of for doing image recognition of a car. Now, if I can figure out a Halloween costume of a rim, I will be there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 26 05:34:53 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:34:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reason to build a new heavy lifter Message-ID: <000901cc93a0$fd5b20c0$f8116240$@att.net> Description: http://image.patriotpost.us/2011-10-25-humor-jupiter.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22229 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 08:01:23 2011 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 01:01:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Halloween costumes In-Reply-To: <001f01cc9394$0817eb90$1847c2b0$@att.net> References: <001f01cc9394$0817eb90$1847c2b0$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike wrote: An astronaut is not a future themed character, it?s retro themed. The whole space program seems like a piece of 21st century techno-adventure, ripped out of its time and dropped into the middle of the 20th century. >>> I realize the space race of the 20th century was motivated largely by national rivalries, and so is viewed by some as having happened earlier than it would have normally. I think right now we are taking a "pause" in part due to so much money spent on war and financial insanity, and also because we need time for the so-called convergence (AGI, nano, biotech, robotics, etc.) technologies to develop and give us a major advantage when we again push into space in a major way. I envision things heating up again in a big way when China builds a permanent base on the Moon (circa 2020-2025) and looks at putting taikonauts on Mars. If America still has financial muscle left, we will surely be competing with them as they carry out these ventures. And then Spike, you will not have to repeatedly say that to be an astronaut is retro! : ) John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 08:07:35 2011 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:07:35 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: References: <1319561230.48420.YahooMailClassic@web82901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As it has already been said. Thankfully in this times of scientific uncertainty, we have one science settled. That is of course the AGW - aka the CC. On a more serious side, we are terribly lacking rigor. All those experiments which confirms the General Relativity - how biased are they? What are procedures? Are they blind enough? Anybody even cares? I still remember the days, when the superluminal galaxies on a way out of here were thought impossible. Now, they are on a daily menu at the Hubble restaurant. And nobody gives a dam about. Somehow it is okay with GR, since that is no real motion, only the space is inflating ... inflationary. Time to reconsider everything from the MM experiment on. This time really hard. - Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Wed Oct 26 10:06:51 2011 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:06:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: References: <1319561230.48420.YahooMailClassic@web82901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA7DBBB.80000@aleph.se> There is an interesting gap between 'what the science says' and what an interested layperson today can learn. The problems are: 1) a lot of cutting edge science is very hard to explain since it is so far from the scales where our intuitions and analogies make sense, 2) an awful lot of science is indeed worse than you think (c.f. Ioannidis et al., or apply the cognitive bias literature to science), 3) there is so many papers and studies out there that it is very hard for anyone to get a picture of what the real state is. These problems have different weight in different domains. Plenty of physics and math is so far out that there is little hope to explain it even to an interested listener ("Fuckin' spin, how does it work?"), but at least the studied phenomena are fairly 'clean'. Not so in medicine and the social sciences, where the complex systems we investigate are highly individual and generalize badly - here 2 and 3 dominate. Sometimes you get specific biases, like methodology cults or inability to understand statistics in some subcommunities. It is not that the science has become more uncertain. It is that we have more of it and recognize its uncertainty better. But that doesn't calm anybody. Tomaz Kristan wrote: > All those experiments which confirms the General Relativity - how > biased are they? What are procedures? Are they blind enough? Anybody > even cares? Seems to be a little cottage industry coming up with weird alternatives to GR and then disproving them. But things like gravitational lensing, gravitational time dilation and frame dragging make GR decently solid. Procedures are fairly clearly described, one can check the math, and increasingly people have access to tools to do amateur checks - I read a while about a guy who was testing GR himself using his own atomic clock. > I still remember the days, when the superluminal galaxies on a way out > of here were thought impossible. Now, they are on a daily menu at the > Hubble restaurant. And nobody gives a dam about. Somehow it is okay > with GR, since that is no real motion, only the space is inflating ... > inflationary. Huh? They are typically relegated to the page in the astrophysics textbook where they explain how you get the appearance of superluminal motion. Are there anybody serious out there who honestly think they are superluminal? And the "superluminal" aspects of spacetime expansion are not problematic in GR. Just check the math. > > Time to reconsider everything from the MM experiment on. This time > really hard. The fun thing is that these days the MM experiment ought to be within the capacity of amateurs. Please do it. -- Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Faculty of Philosophy Oxford University From bbenzai at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 10:35:36 2011 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 03:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Halloween costumes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319625336.25743.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> John Grigg quoted: "If you're the kind of ... unabashedly antisocial individual who has no time or patience for the holiday, here are twenty cosplaying ideas..." Er... Ben Zaiboc From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 11:05:24 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:05:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 October 2011 06:24, Keith Henson wrote: > I suspect that most of us feel akin to being naked in public when > realize we have left our cell phone at home. Well, provided the whether is OK I have never felt as uneasy being naked in public as I do when I forget my cell phone. :-))) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 11:05:39 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:05:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 October 2011 13:05, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On 26 October 2011 06:24, Keith Henson wrote: >> I suspect that most of us feel akin to being naked in public when >> realize we have left our cell phone at home. > > Well, provided the whether is OK I have never felt as uneasy being > naked in public as I do when I forget my cell phone. :-))) Oops. Weather. -- Stefano Vaj From sparge at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:10:26 2011 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: How you fix congress! by Warren Buffett In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I said state legislatures. Yes, and I meant my response to refer to state legislators. I didn't realize that state legislatures aren't considered congresses. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Oct 26 13:18:43 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:18:43 +0200 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111026131843.GL31847@leitl.org> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:46:08PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote: > No, but it's not hard to imagine an infectious agent that would build > a neural interface into every person it infects (perhaps everyone) > which would give them access to the totality of information available > to humans. Now that would be definitely coercive, and not even for a discernible worthwhile reason. > It's not hard to project current smart cell phones into this development path. I'm enjoying the Android ecosystem immensely. At long last I don't have to roll my own wearable and break the bank in the process as we had to live with in the 1990s, but order cheap stuff from Amazon and buy app glue from the market that Just Works. If anyone wants to tinker cheaply, I recommend B&N Nook color with CM7 and Huawei Ideos (e.g. X3) with extra battery packs and a fanny pack. GPS tethering works (at least via WLAN, not sure about Bluetooth), commercial battery packs are available, wireless video and sensorics is coming along, too. HMDs like http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/hmd-video-glasses are also again available, hopefully soon as small HUDs as well. From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Oct 26 14:15:10 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:15:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03815884F4044A51B5D6FC5AF03D189A@DFC68LF1> Kelly wrote: "I don't believe we all have to be equal... I said, "This idea that we all have to be equal nauseates me, btw." So you must be referring to someone else here..." I apologize, but I didn't read a post where anyone said we had to be equal. Natasha From spike66 at att.net Wed Oct 26 14:04:01 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:04:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Halloween costumes In-Reply-To: References: <001f01cc9394$0817eb90$1847c2b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <008201cc93e8$1df0fc50$59d2f4f0$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] Halloween costumes Spike wrote: >>.An astronaut is not a future themed character, it's retro themed. . >.I envision things heating up again in a big way when China builds a permanent base on the Moon (circa 2020-2025) and looks at putting taikonauts on Mars. If America still has financial muscle left, we will surely be competing with them as they carry out these ventures. And then Spike, you will not have to repeatedly say that to be an astronaut is retro! : ) .John Ja, it might work out that way, but for that to happen, we need to also envision an energy transition that isn't clear to me. Oil is great stuff, but the supply is not infinite. There is oil left in the ground, but over time the available reserves get less attractive: heavier and more sour crudes come into play, which make it more expensive to refine. That will be a major factor shaping our future. As much as we talk about energy resources online here and at the Oil Drum and other places, it is hard to find convincing strategies. Regarding the US involvement in future space ventures, we need to first deal with our government having borrowed our retirement fund and spent it all with no convincing way to pay it back. What do we do about that? A third concern is the US transition from manufacturing to a financial services economy. What happens if the US becomes the new Nigeria? When you get any email which contains the terms "Sir" and "Nigeria" you already know it is a scam, ja? Easy to filter those, because Nigeria has exactly nothing to legitimately sell you. Their only exports (other than oil, which you personally are not buying) are reams and reams of absurd spam emails urging you to buy into this or that, or that you have such a good reputation they want to give 3,600,000.00 US dollars from some late bankers' estate. You already know anything with Nigeria involved in any way is a scam. Nigeria can never establish a legitimate financial service, as long as you and I live. What happens if the US becomes the new Nigeria? We will not be going into space then. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 26 16:27:56 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Tue, 10/25/11, Tomaz Kristan wrote: "I don't think, that there is a time travel. Einstein's theory is probably too damaged, that the reasoning along those lines "relativity may permit the time travel" is any good." If things really do go faster than light it's going to be difficult to forbid time travel because any theory that replaces Einstein is still going to have to deal with time dilation because that has been confirmed many times in the lab, the fact that observers moving in opposite directions close to the speed of light will see each others clock as running slow. Maybe somebody can figure out a way to allow faster than light but not time travel but I don't know of a way, except maybe a parallel world or something of that sort. You and I start out in the same reference frame, we shake hands and synchronize our clocks and head to our respective spaceships. Soon we are moving in opposite directions at a substantial fraction of the speed of light. I have a Neutrino FTL radio that can send messages almost instantly regardless of distance, so at 3PM by my clock I send you a message "why did the chicken cross the road?". With my telescope I see you receive my message and note that your clock says 2PM when you do. So you get my message and look at your clock and see it says 2PM and you send me a reply, and when you do that you also look at me with your telescope and see that when I receive your message my clock says 1 PM. So at 1PM by my clock I receive the answer to my message "to get to the other side"; 2 hours before I sent the question I receive the answer. If our radios can only send signals at the speed of light or less this can not happen, I can't get an answer before I ask a question, but with anything faster than light it seems that you could. And that would mean we live in a very crazy world. ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 17:59:59 2011 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:59:59 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A nice explanation of the problem, I sure give you that. But you can also see me splashing over the black hole horizon, while from my point of view, there is just a happy crossing of some imaginary border. What will happen a little later, is another matter. The resolution is, that the event horizon equals everything what we call "inside". An arbitrary screen is the same thing as everything behind it. So called holographic principle. I don't say I necessarily buy HP, I only give an example when one sees something and another one sees something else. When you see me reading the question "why the chicken has crossed the road?", you see my clock at 2PM. While I see it 3PM. Just like "splashing over the event horizon" you see - and "nothing extraordinary" I see. Different observers see different things. I am not saying it's a must, I only have no idea what is really going on. Could be something unexpected. - Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 20:25:39 2011 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:25:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: <4EA739AA.6080504@aleph.se> References: <4EA5283C.4000903@aleph.se> <4EA739AA.6080504@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Kelly Anderson wrote: >> So we have two kinds of "coercion", the soft coercion of the >> marketplace, the Darwinian survival pressures, and the hard coercion >> of government. So how governments respond to transhumanism is likely >> to be where most of the hard coercion comes from... and the >> marketplace will place it's own subtle pressures on people to conform >> to the new zeitgeist of tomorrow's technology. > > Don't forget the cultural and social pressure. How often do you do things > because it is what is expected of people in your role? (whether that role is > student, rebel, male, Newfoundlander, ...) A lot of these behaviors are > induced by our surrounding culture. And there is a tremendous amount of > feedback going on that deeply affects our behavior: Agreed. Surely this is the main root of religious memeplexes... There are probably other meme "channels" out there as well... propaganda, mental illness, advertising, corporate communications and the still quiet voice of nature... I'm sure there are others. :-) > Right now a lot of new foreign students have come to Oxford. They do not > understand the subtle rules of British queues. So they misbehave (in the > eyes of us locals) and get subtle feedback - frowns, averted eyes, bodies > turned slightly so that elbows point in their direction. Within a few months > they will behave like the rest of us do in the queues. Sure. The British have a lot of unwritten rules, as everyone else does. When I last visited China in 1987, for example, I got stares when I put trash into a trash can. When I asked what I had done, it was explained to me that many street sweepers' jobs depended upon people throwing their litter into the street... and how cruel could I be to deprive them of a means to make a living. It was truly a moment of zen. I hear things have changed now... by the way. > Transhumanism will become part of this system of culture and social pressure > if it becomes mainstream. What kind of enhancement school do you go for? How > do you live up to the informal norms of proper enhancement behavior? Yes, it's just like, "what iPod model do you have". The young are particularly susceptible to this sort of thing, which is why we have so many fyborg youth. >> The real question in my mind is whether the Amish >> will be able to continue their lifestyle... or will they be perceived >> at some future point as not worth the bother... > > And this is why one should care about property rights and similar things. If > the primordial slime owns shares in the higher intelligence it will tend to > treat the slime well if property rights are preserved. I truly hope things work out that way, but the socialist trend would seem to indicate that it may not work out so well... > The Amish are unlikely to be in trouble since they have a sufficiently > protected niche within the US society cooperative core: rights are mutually > recognized, there is enough feedback to handle changes in the surrounding > social matrix. There are no doubt limits to how isolated a group can be and > still enjoy proper protection, but the Amish show that they can be pretty > wide. But will the US stay the same into the indefinite future??? That remains to be seen. >>> The problem is when people both want to stay outside the >>> mainstream but do not want to pay the cost: they must then convince >>> enough >>> of the rest that they have a moral claim to get repaid by the mainstream >>> to >>> cover the cost of what they perceive as exclusion. >>> >> >> Enter socialism. > > I'm not sure what you mean by socialism here and onwards. It doesn't sound > like you are referring to the economic or political system. Both. When money is taken from the rich (enhanced/machines) and given to the poor (unenhanced) that is socialism... or did I miss the train to the political science class? > Note that the above demand can be made to any kind of society, for any > reason - and might be granted for equally diverse reasons. When people give > food to begging monks, they might do that for the rationally selfish reason > of improving their karma. The difference is free choice. I can choose to give money to a monk, or not. I cannot choose whether to pay taxes (other than by choosing not to have an income, or buy anything that has sales tax) because that is forced at the end of a gun. Libertarianism is not against the redistribution of wealth, it is against the FORCED redistribution of wealth. If the redistribution is done voluntarily by the wealth holder, then all is well, and you don't have socialism. The reason they would make this choice is irrelevant. >> I'm uninterested in the government >> footing the bill. Whoever writes the checks makes the rules... > > That is an interesting problem with demanding compensation for being > excluded. If you are compensated for not fitting in you become somewhat > dependent on the rest of society (even if the compensation is non-monetary, > like moral support). If you want to remain truly independent you cannot > claim compensation. I completely agree with this position. As someone who has taken government money and services, I can tell you that it comes at a considerable cost to your personal freedom and self esteem. -Kelly From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Thu Oct 27 08:28:16 2011 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:28:16 +1100 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111027192816.5b1fc605@jarrah> On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:27:56 -0700 (PDT) john clark wrote: > On Tue, 10/25/11, Tomaz Kristan wrote: > "I don't think, that there is a time travel. Einstein's theory is > probably too damaged, that the reasoning along those lines > "relativity may permit the time travel" is any good." If things > really do go faster than light it's going to be difficult to forbid > time travel because any theory that replaces Einstein is still going > to have to deal with time dilation because that has been confirmed > many times in the lab, the fact that observers moving in opposite > directions close to the speed of light will see each others clock as > running slow. Maybe somebody can figure out a way to allow faster > than light but not time travel but I don't know of a way, except > maybe a parallel world or something of that sort. > > You and I start out in the same reference frame, we shake hands and > synchronize our clocks and head to our respective spaceships. Soon we > are moving in opposite directions at a substantial fraction of the > speed of light. I have a Neutrino FTL radio that can send messages > almost instantly regardless of distance, so at 3PM by my clock I send > you a message "why did the chicken cross the road?". With my > telescope I see you receive my message and note that your clock says > 2PM when you do. So you get my message and look at your clock and see > it says 2PM and you send me a reply, and when you do that you also > look at me with your telescope and see that when I receive your > message my clock says 1 PM. So at 1PM by my clock I receive the > answer to my message "to get to the other side"; 2 hours before I > sent the question I receive the answer. If our radios can only send > signals at the speed of light or less this can not happen, I can't > get an answer before I ask a question, but with anything faster than > light it seems that you could. And that would mean we live in a very > crazy world. > > ?John K Clark Is it just me, or is there a hole in that argument? If you are looking at him through a normal telescope, you are looking at old light. Regardless of the time on the clock you won't see him get the message until after you have sent it. If you are watching through some instant FTL "telescope", you will be able to see him get the message, then answer it, then you instantly get the response. Still no time travel. What am I missing? As far as I can see, all the arguments for time travel involve the assumption that there is no simultaneity between relativistic observers , but FTL communications would break that assumption. -David From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 08:10:42 2011 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:10:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: References: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The fun thing is that these days the MM experiment ought to be within the capacity of amateurs. Please do it. It is about how to explain its outcome. Not to rerun it. That is beyond what a human mind can easily do. Be professional or not. - Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 09:23:27 2011 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:23:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <20111027192816.5b1fc605@jarrah> References: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111027192816.5b1fc605@jarrah> Message-ID: David! John assumes a degree of relativity, while you don't. Who is right, who is the one with a coherent explanation of the observed facts - and mostly WHAT that is - I don't know. I am too stupid, or too lazy or both to solve it. As everybody until now was, including Einstein, if this neutrino scandal is to be confirmed. When the MM experiment failed, people were bizurked, Einstein then came with a possible solution in 1905. But if you ask me, it hasn't lasted long. Only until Ehrenfest paradox in 1908. I have no solution either, of course. Except, that we are in a simulation, seems more probable to me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at alice.it Thu Oct 27 10:15:49 2011 From: scerir at alice.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:15:49 +0200 Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <20111027192816.5b1fc605@jarrah> References: <1319646476.78381.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111027192816.5b1fc605@jarrah> Message-ID: Causality _Causality_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_(physics)) is a fundamental principle of _theoretical_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_physics) _particle physics_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_field_theory) (and thus a basis of arguments that various methods of potentially sending information faster than c or backwards in time are unworkable). If tachyons can be used to transmit information faster than light, then according to relativity, they can also be used to violate certain simple understandings of the causality principle using a scheme sometimes known as the "tachyon telephone paradox"._[16]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon#cite_note-Gr.C3.B8n1-15) This can be understood in terms of the _relativity of simultaneity_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity) in special relativity, which says that different _inertial reference frames_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_frame_of_reference) will disagree on whether two events at different locations happened "at the same time" or not, and they can also disagree on the order of the two events (technically, these disagreements occur when _spacetime interval_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime#Spacetime_intervals) between the events is 'space-like', meaning that neither event lies in the future _light cone_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone) of the other)._[17]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon#cite_note-Jarrell-16) If one of the two events represents the sending of a signal from one location and the second event represents the reception of the same signal at another location, then as long as the signal is moving at the speed of light or slower, the mathematics of simultaneity ensures that all reference frames agree that the transmission-event happened before the reception-event._[17]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon#cite_note-Jarrell-16) However, in the case of a hypothetical signal moving faster than light, there would always be some frames in which the signal was received before it was sent, so that the signal could be said to have moved backwards in time. Because one of the two fundamental _postulates of special relativity_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postulates_of_special_relativity) says that the laws of physics should work the same way in every inertial frame, if it is possible for signals to move backwards in time in any one frame, it must be possible in all frames. This means that if observer A sends a signal to observer B which moves faster than light in A's frame but backwards in time in B's frame, and then B sends a reply which moves faster than light in B's frame but backwards in time in A's frame, it could work out that A receives the reply before sending the original signal, a seeming challenge to temporal causality in every frame. Nonetheless, the event cannot be said to lack causal structure as the events are still connected, albeit in this case in a backwards relationship. Mathematical details can be found in the _tachyonic antitelephone_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyonic_antitelephone) article, and an illustration of such a scenario using _spacetime diagrams_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_diagram) can be found here._[18]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon#cite_note-17) It has been argued that we can avoid the notion of tachyons traveling into the past using the Feinberg reinterpretation principle_[3]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon#cite_note-feinberg67-2) which states that a negative-energy tachyon sent back in time in an attempt to challenge forward temporal causality can always be reinterpreted as a positive-energy tachyon traveling forward in time. This is because observers cannot distinguish between the emission and absorption of tachyons. For a tachyon, there is no distinction between the processes of emission and absorption, because there always exists a sub-light speed _reference frame_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference) shift that alters the temporal direction of the tachyon's world-line, which is not true for _bradyons_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradyon) or _luxons_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massless_particle) . The attempt to detect a tachyon from the future (and challenge forward causality) can actually create the same tachyon and sends it forward in time (which is itself a causal event). According to the Feinberg reinterpretation principle every tachyon detector will register tachyons in every possible detection mode; from the perspective of a frame where the registration by the "detector" preceded the activation of the "emitter", the "detector" in the past is actually _spontaneously emitting_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_emission) tachyons, only some of which will be intercepted by the detector in the future. However, Feinberg's reinterpretation principle, treats events in a way that the earlier event is defined as the "emission" and the later one the "detection", and one critic claims that it does not, in itself, solve the causality problems associated with tachyon information transmission._[16]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon#cite_note-Gr.C3.B8n1-15) This criticism however is ill-conceived as it completely ignores the causal structure of reality. For example, suppose experimenter A could selectively influence the rate at which tachyons from her emitter traveled to the detector of experimenter B, and B could measure changes in the rate tachyons arrived at his detector, so that A could transmit a message to B in binary code. Then in a frame where B's detector went off at an earlier time than A influenced her emitter, relabeling B's device as a "spontaneous emitter" and A's as a "detector" would be necessary to make the experiment intelligible as it wouldn't change the fact that B, by observing the changing rates of tachyons being spontaneously emitted from his device, could gain information about A's interactions with her own device in the future. In fact, this experiment would solidify the principle of causality even more since B can follow the causal link and make preditions about A's action in the future. Although remote, the possibility of backward causality is not a real challenge to the principle of causality, but rather a novel way of understanding an additional aspect of it. Some arguments from quantum field theory suggest that even if tachyons exist, they cannot be used to transmit information faster than light, either because disturbances in the quantum field for a tachyon would not actually propagate faster than light, or because the tachyon is impossible to localize._[19]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon#cite_note-chase1-18) Without the possibility of faster-than-light information transmission, the problem of backwards-in-time information transmission can be avoided as well. In the theory of _general relativity_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity) , it is possible to construct spacetimes in which particles travel faster than the speed of light, relative to a distant observer. One example is the _Alcubierre metric_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_metric) , another is of _traversable wormholes_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole) . However, these are not tachyons in the above sense, as they do not exceed the _speed of light_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light) locally. _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon) From eugen at leitl.org Thu Oct 27 14:43:37 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:43:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] useful resource for the St. Anford AI class people Message-ID: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> http://www.reddit.com/r/aiclass/ A Reddit study group for the free online version of "Introduction to Artificial Intelligence", taught by Sebastian Thrun and Peter Norvig. The purpose of this reddit is to help each other understand the course materials, not to share solutions to assignments. Please follow the Stanford Honor Code, and don't post any links to pirated versions of the textbook. From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 27 15:38:05 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <20111027192816.5b1fc605@jarrah> Message-ID: <1319729885.88095.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Thu, 10/27/11, david wrote: "Is it just me, or is there a hole in that argument? If you are looking at him through a normal telescope, you are looking at old light. Regardless of the time on the clock you won't see him get the message until after you have sent it." I am observing 3 things in your spaceship through my normal telescope: 1) I observe you receiving my message 2) I observe that when you do receive my message you immediately turn your head and look at your clock. 3) I observe that when you turn your head your clock (not mine) says 1PM. You, your head, and your clock are all in the same reference frame relative to me, so I can say that when you received my answer you saw your clock (not mime) say 1PM, and we know that when you asked the question you saw your clock (not mime) say 3PM, so you got your answer 2 hours before you asked the question, and that poses a problem for those who would prefer that the universe make some sort of sense. And it really doesn't matter if Einstein was right or wrong because we know for a fact that this time dilation effect is real, its been demonstrated experimentally countless times; as long as messages can not move faster than light time dilation is no problem, answers can never arrive before questions, but if you can send signals faster than light the world becomes very strange indeed. ? John K Clark? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:59:56 2011 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:59:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:00 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:46:08PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote: > >> No, but it's not hard to imagine an infectious agent that would build >> a neural interface into every person it infects (perhaps everyone) >> which would give them access to the totality of information available >> to humans. > > Now that would be definitely coercive, and not even for a discernible > worthwhile reason. There are some people around who would think that everybody knowing everything is a worthwhile reason to develop such an agent. It would change the nature of conversation though. >> It's not hard to project current smart cell phones into this development path. > > I'm enjoying the Android ecosystem immensely. At long last I don't > have to roll my own wearable and break the bank in the process as > we had to live with in the 1990s, but order cheap stuff from Amazon and > buy app glue from the market that Just Works. > > If anyone wants to tinker cheaply, I recommend B&N Nook color with CM7 and Huawei > Ideos (e.g. X3) with extra battery packs and a fanny pack. GPS tethering works > (at least via WLAN, not sure about Bluetooth), commercial battery > packs are available, wireless video and sensorics is coming along, > too. HMDs like http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/hmd-video-glasses are also > again available, hopefully soon as small HUDs as well. There has been a major change in conversations over lunch in the last few years as smart phones came in. Rather than arguing from their memory or opinion, they just look stuff up. Keith From dennislmay at yahoo.com Thu Oct 27 16:11:59 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light In-Reply-To: <1319729885.88095.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20111027192816.5b1fc605@jarrah> <1319729885.88095.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319731919.26916.YahooMailNeo@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> John Clark wrote: ? > ...if you can send signals faster than light the world becomes >?very strange indeed. ? Not in the appropriately modified version of LET relativity.? In that case it is no more interesting than traveling faster than sound. Dennis ________________________________ From: john clark To: ExI chat list Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] BBC Faster Than The Speed Of Light On Thu, 10/27/11, david wrote: "Is it just me, or is there a hole in that argument?If you are looking at him through a normal telescope, you are looking atold light. Regardless of the time on the clock you won't see him getthe message until after you have sent it." I am observing 3 things in your spaceship through my normal telescope: 1) I observe you receiving my message 2) I observe that when you do receive my message you immediately turn your head and look at your clock. 3) I observe that when you turn your head your clock (not mine) says 1PM. You, your head, and your clock are all in the same reference frame relative to me, so I can say that when you received my answer you saw your clock (not mime) say 1PM, and we know that when you asked the question you saw your clock (not mime) say 3PM, so you got your answer 2 hours before you asked the question, and that poses a problem for those who would prefer that the universe make some sort of sense. And it really doesn't matter if Einstein was right or wrong because we know for a fact that this time dilation effect is real, its been demonstrated experimentally countless times; as long as messages can not move faster than light time dilation is no problem, answers can never arrive before questions, but if you can send signals faster than light the world becomes very strange indeed. ? John K Clark? ? _______________________________________________extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Oct 27 16:31:52 2011 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:31:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] It might be, was Is Transhumanism Coercive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:46:08PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote: "There has been a major change in conversations over lunch in the last few years as smart phones came in. Rather than arguing from their memory or opinion, they just look stuff up." Nice insight. Natasha From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 27 16:58:02 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Faster-than-light neutrino result to get extra checks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319734682.71182.YahooMailClassic@web82905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21093-fasterthanlight-neutrino-result-to-get-extra-checks.html "Neutrinos may move faster than light, but double-checking the results is decidedly slower, as the team prepares to submit a paper for publication. Last month the OPERA collaboration at Gran Sasso, Italy, announced that neutrinos had arrived from CERN, 730 kilometres away in Switzerland, 60 nanoseconds faster than light speed. The controversial claim triggered a flood of criticism, support and speculation from the rest of the physics world. Some OPERA team members have reservations too. Fifteen of the 160-strong collaboration did not sign their names to the preprint of the paper because they considered the results too preliminary. "I didn't sign because I thought the estimated error was not correct," says OPERA team member Luca Stanco of the National Institute of Nuclear Physics in Italy, adding he thinks it is larger than the stated 10 nanoseconds. Now it appears that the cautious voices have won out. The collaboration has begun a new set of measurements to be completed before submitting the paper to a peer-reviewed journal. The team is sending tighter bunches of particles from CERN, allowing a more precise measurement of the time it takes neutrinos to get from one lab to the other. The team will take data from 21 October to 6 November, and expect to see between 10 and 15 neutrinos over that time. "If it works, then we will have sufficient accuracy, no problem," Stanco says. Dmitri Denisov, a physicist at Fermilab in Batavia, Illinois, says it is standard procedure to wait to publish a paper until everyone in the collaboration has signed on. "We really strive to have full agreement," he says. "In some cases it takes months, sometimes up to a year, to verify that everyone in the collaboration is happy." " -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:04:54 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:04:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] useful resource for the St. Anford AI class people In-Reply-To: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> References: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> Message-ID: 1) Thanks, but we know. It's linked to from the Discussion page of the class; in fact, that and the Aiqus link seem to be the de facto official discussion groups (and the Reddit one is primary, by virtue of being linked first). The Discussion page says the actual official discussion is "coming soon" - but it's over 2 weeks into the class, long enough to firmly establish the standard. (Though I don't see a problem with that, unless there's something the class needs that Reddit can't or won't supply.) 2) It really is "Stanford", not "St. Anford". The family of former California Governor Leland Stanford didn't need sainthood to build a university in his name. See http://www.stanford.edu/about/history/ . So, how's the class going for people? I think I'm doing alright so far. (100% on the first HW; can't see the score for the second at this time.) Then again, it's mainly been probability theory & applications so far, a topic with which I was already familiar. On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 7:43 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > http://www.reddit.com/r/aiclass/ > > A Reddit study group for the free online version of "Introduction to > Artificial Intelligence", taught by Sebastian Thrun and Peter Norvig. > > The purpose of this reddit is to help each other understand the course > materials, not to share solutions to assignments. Please follow the Stanford > Honor Code, and don't post any links to pirated versions of the textbook. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Thu Oct 27 20:19:25 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:19:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] useful resource for the St. Anford AI class people In-Reply-To: References: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> Message-ID: <01e601cc94e5$b97f96b0$2c7ec410$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes >... 2) It really is "Stanford", not "St. Anford". The family of former California Governor Leland Stanford didn't need sainthood to build a university in his name. See http://www.stanford.edu/about/history/ . Ja, Stanford bought it would good old filthy lucre, the honestly-earned clean variety of filthy lucre. Good for him, and go Cardinal! >...So, how's the class going for people? I think I'm doing alright so far... I'm doing alright, but to be honest, I have found the textbook more interesting and helpful than the lectures. More on that later, gotta run. spike From eugen at leitl.org Thu Oct 27 20:46:01 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:46:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] useful resource for the St. Anford AI class people In-Reply-To: <01e601cc94e5$b97f96b0$2c7ec410$@att.net> References: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> <01e601cc94e5$b97f96b0$2c7ec410$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111027204601.GS31847@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 01:19:25PM -0700, spike wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes > >... 2) It really is "Stanford", not "St. Anford". The family of former Revinu Jitis Drofnats (born January 10, 1938 in Tupelo, Oregon) is a professor of farm ecology at the University of St. Anford in California. Since 1982, he has been the conductor of the university orchestra. He is best known for his research on the potential application of isolated analgesics, which has led to radically more efficient management of aspirin-based compounds. In 1984, Drofnats sued Donald E. Knuth over the publication of a private letter by Drofnats in Knuth's The TeXbook, claiming copyright violation. This was overturned on the technical matter of Drofnats being a figment of Knuth's imagination. As of 2004, the case is still awaiting appeal. From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 21:41:22 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:41:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] useful resource for the St. Anford AI class people In-Reply-To: <20111027204601.GS31847@leitl.org> References: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> <01e601cc94e5$b97f96b0$2c7ec410$@att.net> <20111027204601.GS31847@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes >> >... 2) It really is "Stanford", not "St. Anford". ?The family of former > > Revinu Jitis Drofnats (born January 10, 1938 in Tupelo, Oregon) is a professor of farm ecology at the University of St. Anford in California. Since 1982, he has been the conductor of the university orchestra. Your point? Typos exist, but when the vast majority of sources from the institution in question say "Stanford" instead of "St. Anford"... From pjmanney at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 01:53:29 2011 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:53:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] useful resource for the St. Anford AI class people In-Reply-To: References: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> <01e601cc94e5$b97f96b0$2c7ec410$@att.net> <20111027204601.GS31847@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >>> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes >>> >... 2) It really is "Stanford", not "St. Anford". ?The family of former >> >> Revinu Jitis Drofnats (born January 10, 1938 in Tupelo, Oregon) is a professor of farm ecology at the University of St. Anford in California. Since 1982, he has been the conductor of the university orchestra. > > Your point? ?Typos exist, but when the vast majority of sources from the > institution in question say "Stanford" instead of "St. Anford"... It's okay, Eugen. You made me laugh. PJ From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 28 09:37:30 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:37:30 +0200 Subject: [ExI] useful resource for the St. Anford AI class people In-Reply-To: References: <20111027144337.GD31847@leitl.org> <01e601cc94e5$b97f96b0$2c7ec410$@att.net> <20111027204601.GS31847@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20111028093729.GY31847@leitl.org> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 06:53:29PM -0700, PJ Manney wrote: > > Your point? ?Typos exist, but when the vast majority of sources from the > > institution in question say "Stanford" instead of "St. Anford"... > > It's okay, Eugen. You made me laugh. Yeah, Knuth is sure a funny guy for a living CS legend. Further data point: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ioerror/3014911710/ From jonkc at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 28 15:30:47 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil Responds to Paul Allen about the Singularity In-Reply-To: <01e601cc94e5$b97f96b0$2c7ec410$@att.net> Message-ID: <1319815847.42402.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/guest/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 28 15:59:04 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Article: Kurzweil Responds to Paul Allen about the Singularity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319817544.23240.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The link I gave stopped working, but here is the article: ========= Kurzweil Responds: Don't Underestimate the Singularity Last week, Paul Allen and a colleague challenged the prediction that computers will soon exceed human intelligence. Now Ray Kurzweil, the leading proponent of the "Singularity," offers a rebuttal. Ray Kurzweil 10/19/2011 Credit: Technology Review Although Paul Allen paraphrases my 2005 book, The Singularity Is Near, in the title of his essay (cowritten with his colleague Mark Greaves), it appears that he has not actually read the book. His only citation is to an essay I wrote in 2001 ("The Law of Accelerating Returns") and his article does not acknowledge or respond to arguments I actually make in the book. When my 1999 book, The Age of Spiritual Machines, was published, and augmented a couple of years later by the 2001 essay, it generated several lines of criticism, such as Moore's law will come to an end, hardware capability may be expanding exponentially but software is stuck in the mud, the brain is too complicated, there are capabilities in the brain that inherently cannot be replicated in software, and several others. I specifically wrote The Singularity Is Near to respond to those critiques. I cannot say that Allen would necessarily be convinced by the arguments I make in the book, but at least he could have responded to what I actually wrote. Instead, he offers de novo arguments as if nothing has ever been written to respond to these issues. Allen's descriptions of my own positions appear to be drawn from my 10-year-old essay. While I continue to stand by that essay, Allen does not summarize my positions correctly even from that essay. Allen writes that "the Law of Accelerating Returns (LOAR). . . is not a physical law." I would point out that most scientific laws are not physical laws, but result from the emergent properties of a large number of events at a finer level. A classical example is the laws of thermodynamics (LOT). If you look at the mathematics underlying the LOT, they model each particle as following a random walk. So by definition, we cannot predict where any particular particle will be at any future time. Yet the overall properties of the gas are highly predictable to a high degree of precision according to the laws of thermodynamics. So it is with the law of accelerating returns. Each technology project and contributor is unpredictable, yet the overall trajectory as quantified by basic measures of price-performance and capacity nonetheless follow remarkably predictable paths. If computer technology were being pursued by only a handful of researchers, it would indeed be unpredictable. But it's being pursued by a sufficiently dynamic system of competitive projects that a basic measure such as instructions per second per constant dollar follows a very smooth exponential path going back to the 1890 American census. I discuss the theoretical basis for the LOAR extensively in my book, but the strongest case is made by the extensive empirical evidence that I and others present. Allen writes that "these 'laws' work until they don't." Here, Allen is confusing paradigms with the ongoing trajectory of a basic area of information technology. If we were examining the trend of creating ever-smaller vacuum tubes, the paradigm for improving computation in the 1950s, it's true that this specific trend continued until it didn't. But as the end of this particular paradigm became clear, research pressure grew for the next paradigm. The technology of transistors kept the underlying trend of the exponential growth of price-performance going, and that led to the fifth paradigm (Moore's law) and the continual compression of features on integrated circuits. There have been regular predictions that Moore's law will come to an end. The semiconductor industry's roadmap titled projects seven-nanometer features by the early 2020s. At that point, key features will be the width of 35 carbon atoms, and it will be difficult to continue shrinking them. However, Intel and other chip makers are already taking the first steps toward the sixth paradigm, which is computing in three dimensions to continue exponential improvement in price performance. Intel projects that three-dimensional chips will be mainstream by the teen years. Already three-dimensional transistors and three-dimensional memory chips have been introduced. This sixth paradigm will keep the LOAR going with regard to computer price performance to the point, later in this century, where a thousand dollars of computation will be trillions of times more powerful than the human brain. [1] And it appears that Allen and I are at least in agreement on what level of computation is required to functionally simulate the human brain. [2] Allen then goes on to give the standard argument that software is not progressing in the same exponential manner of hardware. In The Singularity Is Near, I address this issue at length, citing different methods of measuring complexity and capability in software that demonstrate a similar exponential growth. One recent study ("Report to the President and Congress, Designing a Digital Future: Federally Funded Research and Development in Networking and Information Technology" by the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology) states the following: "Even more remarkable?and even less widely understood?is that in many areas, performance gains due to improvements in algorithms have vastly exceeded even the dramatic performance gains due to increased processor speed. The algorithms that we use today for speech recognition, for natural language translation, for chess playing, for logistics planning, have evolved remarkably in the past decade ... Here is just one example, provided by Professor Martin Gr?tschel of Konrad-Zuse-Zentrum f?r Informationstechnik Berlin. Gr?tschel, an expert in optimization, observes that a benchmark production planning model solved using linear programming would have taken 82 years to solve in 1988, using the computers and the linear programming algorithms of the day. Fifteen years later?in 2003?this same model could be solved in roughly one minute, an improvement by a factor of roughly 43 million. Of this, a factor of roughly 1,000 was due to increased processor speed, whereas a factor of roughly 43,000 was due to improvements in algorithms! Gr?tschel also cites an algorithmic improvement of roughly 30,000 for mixed integer programming between 1991 and 2008. The design and analysis of algorithms, and the study of the inherent computational complexity of problems, are fundamental subfields of computer science." I cite many other examples like this in the book. [3] Regarding AI, Allen is quick to dismiss IBM's Watson as narrow, rigid, and brittle. I get the sense that Allen would dismiss any demonstration short of a valid passing of the Turing test. I would point out that Watson is not so narrow. It deals with a vast range of human knowledge and is capable of dealing with subtle forms of language, including puns, similes, and metaphors. It's not perfect, but neither are humans, and it was good enough to get a higher score than the best two human Jeopardy! players put together. Allen writes that Watson was put together by the scientists themselves, building each link of narrow knowledge in specific areas. Although some areas of Watson's knowledge were programmed directly, according to IBM, Watson acquired most of its knowledge on its own by reading natural language documents such as encyclopedias. That represents its key strength. It not only is able to understand the convoluted language in Jeopardy! queries (answers in search of a question), but it acquired its knowledge by reading vast amounts of natural-language documents. IBM is now working with Nuance (a company I originally founded as Kurzweil Computer Products) to have Watson read tens of thousands of medical articles to create a medical diagnostician. A word on the nature of Watson's "understanding" is in order here. A lot has been written that Watson works through statistical knowledge rather than "true" understanding. Many readers interpret this to mean that Watson is merely gathering statistics on word sequences. The term "statistical information" in the case of Watson refers to distributed coefficients in self-organizing methods such as Markov models. One could just as easily refer to the distributed neurotransmitter concentrations in the human cortex as "statistical information." Indeed, we resolve ambiguities in much the same way that Watson does by considering the likelihood of different interpretations of a phrase. Allen writes: "Every structure [in the brain] has been precisely shaped by millions of years of evolution to do a particular thing, whatever it might be. It is not like a computer, with billions of identical transistors in regular memory arrays that are controlled by a CPU with a few different elements. In the brain, every individual structure and neural circuit has been individually refined by evolution and environmental factors." Allen's statement that every structure and neural circuit is unique is simply impossible. That would mean that the design of the brain would require hundreds of trillions of bytes of information. Yet the design of the brain (like the rest of the body) is contained in the genome. And while the translation of the genome into a brain is not straightforward, the brain cannot have more design information than the genome. Note that epigenetic information (such as the peptides controlling gene expression) do not appreciably add to the amount of information in the genome. Experience and learning do add significantly to the amount of information, but the same can be said of AI systems. I show in The Singularity Is Near that after lossless compression (due to massive redundancy in the genome), the amount of design information in the genome is about 50 million bytes, roughly half of which pertains to the brain. [4] That's not simple, but it is a level of complexity we can deal with and represents less complexity than many software systems in the modern world. How do we get on the order of 100 trillion connections in the brain from only tens of millions of bytes of design information? Obviously, the answer is through redundancy. There are on the order of a billion? pattern-recognition mechanisms in the cortex. They are interconnected in intricate ways, but even in the connections there is massive redundancy. The cerebellum also has billions of repeated patterns of neurons. It is true that the massively repeated structures in the brain learn different items of information as we learn and gain experience, but the same thing is true of artificially intelligent systems such as Watson. Dharmendra S. Modha, manager of cognitive computing for IBM Research, writes: "...neuroanatomists have not found a hopelessly tangled, arbitrarily connected network, completely idiosyncratic to the brain of each individual, but instead a great deal of repeating structure within an individual brain and a great deal of homology across species ... The astonishing natural reconfigurability gives hope that the core algorithms of neurocomputation are independent of the specific sensory or motor modalities and that much of the observed variation in cortical structure across areas represents a refinement of a canonical circuit; it is indeed this canonical circuit we wish to reverse engineer." Allen articulates what I describe in my book as the "scientist's pessimism." Scientists working on the next generation are invariably struggling with that next set of challenges, so if someone describes what the technology will look like in 10 generations, their eyes glaze over. One of the pioneers of integrated circuits was describing to me recently the struggles to go from 10 micron (10,000-nanometer) feature sizes to five-micron (5,000 nanometers) features over 30 years ago. They were cautiously confident of this goal, but when people predicted that someday we would actually have circuitry with feature sizes under one micron (1,000 nanometers), most of the scientists struggling to get to five microns thought that was too wild to contemplate. Objections were made on the fragility of circuitry at that level of precision, thermal effects, and so on. Well, today, Intel is starting to use chips with 22-nanometer gate lengths. We saw the same pessimism with the genome project. Halfway through the 15-year project, only 1 percent of the genome had been collected, and critics were proposing basic limits on how quickly the genome could be sequenced without destroying the delicate genetic structures. But the exponential growth in both capacity and price performance continued (both roughly doubling every year), and the project was finished seven years later. The project to reverse-engineer the human brain is making similar progress. It is only recently, for example, that we have reached a threshold with noninvasive scanning techniques that we can see individual interneuronal connections forming and firing in real time. Allen's "complexity brake" confuses the forest with the trees. If you want to understand, model, simulate, and re-create a pancreas, you don't need to re-create or simulate every organelle in every pancreatic Islet cell. You would want, instead, to fully understand one Islet cell, then abstract its basic functionality, and then extend that to a large group of such cells. This algorithm is well understood with regard to Islet cells. There are now artificial pancreases that utilize this functional model being tested. Although there is certainly far more intricacy and variation in the brain than in the massively repeated Islet cells of the pancreas, there is nonetheless massive repetition of functions. Allen mischaracterizes my proposal to learn about the brain from scanning the brain to understand its fine structure. It is not my proposal to simulate an entire brain "bottom up" without understanding the information processing functions. We do need to understand in detail how individual types of neurons work, and then gather information about how functional modules are connected. The functional methods that are derived from this type of analysis can then guide the development of intelligent systems. Basically, we are looking for biologically inspired methods that can accelerate work in AI, much of which has progressed without significant insight as to how the brain performs similar functions. From my own work in speech recognition, I know that our work was greatly accelerated when we gained insights as to how the brain prepares and transforms auditory information. The way that these massively redundant structures in the brain differentiate is through learning and experience. The current state of the art in AI does, however, enable systems to also learn from their own experience. The Google self-driving cars (which have driven over 140,000 miles through California cities and towns) learn from their own driving experience as well as from Google cars driven by human drivers. As I mentioned, Watson learned most of its knowledge by reading on its own. It is true that Watson is not quite at human levels in its ability to understand human language (if it were, we would be at the Turing test level now), yet it was able to defeat the best humans. This is because of the inherent speed and reliability of memory that computers have. So when a computer does reach human levels, which I believe will happen by the end of the 2020s, it will be able to go out on the Web and read billions of pages as well as have experiences in online virtual worlds. Combining human-level pattern recognition with the inherent speed and accuracy of computers will be very powerful. But this is not an alien invasion of intelligence machines?we create these tools to make ourselves smarter. I think Allen will agree with me that this is what is unique about the human species: we build these tools to extend our own reach. Ray Kurzweil is an inventor and author. His last piece for Technology Review was about fighting the aging process. [1] Chapter 2, The Singularity Is Near by Ray Kurzweil, Viking, 2005. [2] See Endnote 2 in "The Singularity Isn't Near" by Paul G. Allen and Mark Greaves. [3] Chapter 9, The Singularity Is Near. [4] Chapter 4, The Singularity Is Near. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Oct 28 16:31:47 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 18:31:47 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Article: Kurzweil Responds to Paul Allen about the Singularity In-Reply-To: <1319817544.23240.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319817544.23240.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111028163147.GW31847@leitl.org> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 08:59:04AM -0700, john clark wrote: > The link I gave stopped working, but here is the article: > ========= > > > Kurzweil Responds: Don't Underestimate the Singularity As a periodic reminder for new subscribers: I run tt at postbiota.org (with RSS feed: http://postbiota.org/pipermail/list.rss ) for such kind of thing: http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2011-October/009925.html Contributing subscribers are particularly welcome. Subscription (Mailman list manager): http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt > Last week, Paul Allen and a colleague challenged the prediction that computers will soon exceed human intelligence. Now Ray Kurzweil, the leading proponent of the "Singularity," offers a rebuttal. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 20:14:06 2011 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 21:14:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Article: Kurzweil Responds to Paul Allen about the Singularity In-Reply-To: <20111028163147.GW31847@leitl.org> References: <1319817544.23240.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111028163147.GW31847@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > As a periodic reminder for new subscribers: > > I run tt at postbiota.org (with RSS feed: > http://postbiota.org/pipermail/list.rss ) for such kind of thing: > > http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2011-October/009925.html > > Contributing subscribers are particularly welcome. > Subscription (Mailman list manager): > http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt > > Note: tt list runs at about 40 to 50 news items per week. Eugen also runs other lists that may be of interest. Some are news only, some allow comments. List Description astro astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, space news biomed biology, genetic engineering, synthetic biology, medicine cryo cryobiology, cryopreservation of large biological systems golem aggregator for selected news from golem.de heise aggregator for selected news from heise.de info information, computation, nonlinear systems, alife, ai, uploading, augmentation, singularity nano nanotechnology, molecular manufacturing, machine-phase chemistry neuro neuroscience and neurotechnology Papers [no description available] tt transhumanist news, collaboratively trawled from the Internet. BillK From spike66 at att.net Sun Oct 30 16:14:23 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:14:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion Message-ID: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> The entire exercise has been a lotta fun for me in a way. I couldn't imagine a way for the activation energies to be overcome to cause cold fusion, but I did think of a bunch of ways to create a device which appears to make excess heat and attract investors. I don't want to waste intellectual energy thinking of ways to cheat when I have no intentions of doing something like that, but doing so is also important, for it helps identify someone who is cheating. Suppose you have some kind of magic black box that you claim makes excess heat. You say you can create a closed loop device, but that you haven't yet, for you are not a powerplant guy, rather a nuclear physicist, so in the meantime you have your 500kW generator here, which you invite the local techno-proles to investigate, to instrument with ammeters and voltmeters, and whatever flimflammer and pantookers they want, so they can convince themselves exactly how much power the black box is receiving. Unbeknown to the innocent crowd, you have rigged a waterline that appears to go to the radiator, but actually it goes right past the radiator, and dumps the Diesel engine heat into the water surrounding your magic device. You could have young engineering students look all over and miss that. The structure upon which the generator sits is made of what looks like ordinary cheapy structural tubing, but that would be a clever disguise. It would carry water to the device. More than 2/3 of the energy converted by the generator goes into the radiator, so the engineering students would be going nuts measuring the electrical power output from the generator, or even the input to the black box, when the excess heat is actually coming from the waste heat from the Diesel engine spinning the generator. I don't know if this is how Rossi is doing it, but I think even I could rig a water line that wouldn't be noticed or is hidden inside the support structure. I could get even more tricky: shunt some of the electrical power to heat the radiator, so that the students and investors would not notice that the bypassed radiator is cold. Then you rig the shunt wires to take off energy before the measurement devices which you invite the investors to install. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dennislmay at yahoo.com Sun Oct 30 16:49:52 2011 From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion In-Reply-To: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> References: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> Message-ID: <1319993392.34712.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For a several year period starting about 10 years ago there was a popular scam going on in Northern Missouri and Southern Iowa and somewhat nationally involving an electrical generator and permanent magnet perpetual motion machine.? They even had segments about it on the Science Channel and other national programs - never really challenging it. ? I discovered there is really no place to effectively report such interstate fraud. The boys who did such a bang up job watching Madoff were told and did nothing.? Several local people I know lost a few thousand apiece and other locals lost a great deal more.? It took about 1 minute to figure out it could not work as advertised and why it would fool people. ? Dennis May ________________________________ From: spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 11:14 AM Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion ? ? ? ? The entire exercise has been a lotta fun for me in a way.? I couldn't imagine a way for the activation energies to be overcome to cause cold fusion, but I did think of a bunch of ways to create a device which appears to make excess heat and attract investors.? I don't want to waste intellectual energy thinking of ways to cheat when I have no intentions of doing something like that, but doing so is also important, for it helps identify someone who is cheating. ? Suppose you have some kind of magic black box that you claim makes excess heat.? You say you can create a closed loop device, but that you haven't yet, for you are not a powerplant guy, rather a nuclear physicist, so in the meantime you have your 500kW generator here, which you invite the local techno-proles to investigate, to instrument with ammeters and voltmeters, and whatever flimflammer and pantookers they want, so they can convince themselves exactly how much power the black box is receiving. ? Unbeknown to the innocent crowd, you have rigged a waterline that appears to go to the radiator, but actually it goes right past the radiator, and dumps the Diesel engine heat into the water surrounding your magic device.? You could have young engineering students look all over and miss that.? The structure upon which the generator sits is made of what looks like ordinary cheapy structural tubing, but that would be a clever disguise.? It would carry water to the device.? More than 2/3 of the energy converted by the generator goes into the radiator, so the engineering students would be going nuts measuring the electrical power output from the generator, or even the input to the black box, when the excess heat is actually coming from the waste heat from the Diesel engine spinning the generator. ? I don?t know if this is how Rossi is doing it, but I think even I could rig a water line that wouldn't be noticed or is hidden inside the support structure.? I could get even more tricky: shunt some of the electrical power to heat the radiator, so that the students and investors would not notice that the bypassed radiator is cold.? Then you rig the shunt wires to take off energy before the measurement devices which you invite the investors to install. ? spike ? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Oct 30 18:46:32 2011 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:46:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion In-Reply-To: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> References: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> Message-ID: <20111030184632.GM31847@leitl.org> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 09:14:23AM -0700, spike wrote: > > > > > I have been considering the neutrinos problem since I first heard the news about the OPERA results. I have come up with at least a couple of?testable hypotheses about what is going on. The first I will call the Information Loophole Hypothesis or H1 for short. The hypothesis is fairly straight forward. We know that quantum entanglement allows FTL "action" without violating causality except with regard to the entanglement phenomenon itself which is probabilistic and not causal. Therefore?the phenomenon has not yet been able to allow FTL communication. ? I propose H1 as follows: ? The low collision cross-section of neutrinos and the probabilistic nature of their flavor-oscillation phenomenon conspire to render neutrinos unable to?carry classical information at FTL velocities. ? A consequence of this is that in order to be sure?the recipient gets an accurate message, one would have to send so many copies of it and the recipent would have to statistically average all the copies to arrive at the?"expected value" of the message that?a simple radio wave could have done the job sooner. That is neutrinos can break the speed of light for QM reasons just like entanglement but similarly?*cant* carry FTL info.?So causality?and Einstein are?safe with regard to neutrinos if not with quantum entanglement. ? Next time I'll tell you about?H2 which is a bit rough on both causality and Einstein but more in a lewd than violent way. ?? Stuart LaForge ? ?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 31 16:31:53 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <1320063925.67415.YahooMailNeo@web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320078713.21455.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Mon, 10/31/11, The Avantguardian wrote: "I propose H1 as follows: The low collision cross-section of neutrinos and the probabilistic nature of their flavor-oscillation phenomenon conspire to render neutrinos unable to?carry classical information at FTL velocities." The low collision cross-section of neutrinos problem can be overcome simply by making the neutrino beam more intense; as for the flavor oscillations, we already have ways of detecting all three flavors. There has been some speculation that there might be a fourth flavor called the "Sterile Neutrino" that is even harder to detect than regular neutrinos, but if that is the explanation I don't see how the CERN people would have seen their very odd faster than light signal. I think either there is an error in the experiment or you really can send signals faster than light; how you could have faster than light signals and still avoid paradoxes I'm not sure, but it would probably involve some aspect of Many Worlds theory. And if there is an error in the experiment I think it will be something subtle, it's hard to believe that the big brains at CERN don't know how to operate a GPS machine. The new experiment at CERN specifically designed to measure the neutrino's speed ends its run this Sunday, we may know the truth soon after that. ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 31 17:33:00 2011 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <1320078713.21455.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320082380.98702.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Mon, 10/31/11 some bozo named John Clark wrote: "The low collision cross-section of neutrinos problem can be overcome simply by making the neutrino beam more intense" Yeah but..., maybe for FTL communication to be 100% reliable the neutrino beam would have to be so intense, and thus the mass-energy concentration so large, that a Black Hole would form. Yeah but..., even if that is true, with a less intense beam you could still SOMETIMES communicate faster than light, SOMETIMES you could still receive the answer before you asked the question, SOMETIMES you could still produce a paradox. As I said before I'm all befuddled and don't know what the hell to think, but its sorta fun. If it all terns out to be caused by a low calculator battery producing an incorrect sum or something equally mundane I will be disappointed. We should know soon. ?John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 18:03:24 2011 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:03:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos In-Reply-To: <1320082380.98702.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1320078713.21455.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1320082380.98702.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/31 john clark > Yeah but..., even if that is true, with a less intense beam you could > still SOMETIMES communicate faster than light, SOMETIMES you could still > receive the answer before you asked the question, SOMETIMES you could still > produce a paradox. > I still don't get why FTL necessarily implies time travel. Say you have 2 points, A and B. Both start off at time T, according to their local clocks (previously synchronized to some third source - let's assume it is equidistant from A and B, so any light speed lag in the signal would have affected both synchronizations equally). Someone at A asks a question at time T. The question contains a representation of T, so others can know when - according to their own clocks - it was asked. The question is transmitted by some means - FTL or not - and arrives at point B at time T+X as measured by B's clock, X being the transit time. Someone at point B transmits a reply, by some means - FTL or not, maybe or maybe not the same means as the question was sent. It arrives at point A at time T+X+Y as measured by A's clock. The answer also contains a representation of T+X. Now, X and Y might be measured differently at A and B (though I suspect they would not - it is the clocks of the stationary-with-respect-to-each-other points that we are measuring by, so relativity does not dilate time relative to each other). Assuming FTL communication, it is certainly possible for the answer to arrive before A observes B receiving the question, and for B to receive and answer the question before observing A sending it. However, neither X nor Y can actually be negative, and receiving a signal before you observe its origin (which, in truth, is nothing more than receiving another signal - in this case, light, traveling slower than FTL by definition) is not actually time travel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Oct 31 19:08:27 2011 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:08:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion In-Reply-To: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> References: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> Message-ID: <4EAEF22B.3000408@libero.it> Il 30/10/2011 17:14, spike ha scritto: > > Suppose you have some kind of magic black box that you claim makes > excess heat. You say you can create a closed loop device, but that you > haven't yet, for you are not a powerplant guy, rather a nuclear > physicist, so in the meantime you have your 500kW generator here, which > you invite the local techno-proles to investigate, to instrument with > ammeters and voltmeters, and whatever flimflammer and pantookers they > want, so they can convince themselves exactly how much power the black > box is receiving. Spike, I'm probably a techno-prole, but these? Enrico Billi ? fisico nucleare Reymond Zreick ? giornalista rivista Focus Irene Zreick - giornalista rivista Focus Mats Lewan ? giornalista rivista Ny Teknik Paolo Soglia ? direttore Radio Citt? del Capo Sterling Allan ? direttore PENS (Pure Energy Network System) Peter Swensson ? giornalista Associated Press Giorgio Benvenuti ? fotografo Associated Press Daniele Passerini - blogger 22 passi Pier Clauzon ? ingegnere CNAM Parigi Irina Uzikova ? ingegnere National Research Nuclear University di Mosca Giuseppe Levi ? fisico (osservatore Universit? di Bologna) Loris Ferrari ? fisico (osservatore Universit? di Bologna) David Bianchini ? esperto radio-protezione Giuliano Guandalini ? direttore EON srl Sergio Focardi Andrea Rossi Maddalena Pascucci fratello di Maddalena Pascucci figlia del fratello di Maddalena Pascucci madre di Maddalena Pascucci Domenico Fioravanti - ingegnere collaudatore e tester dell'impianto Andrea De Vita ? fisico Ansaldo Energia italiano, consulente scientifico Oto Melara italiano, consulente scientifico di un gruppo industriale X (ha chiesto l'anonimato) italiano, consulente scientifico di gruppo industriale Y (ha chiesto l'anonimato) italiano, consulente scientifico di gruppo industriale Z (ha chiesto l'anonimato) svedese (?) svedese (?) svedese (?) To these you can add the, now, famous (or infamous if you prefer) Colonel Engineer Domenico Fioravanti (by NATO) expert in thermodinamic systems. Rossi already stated he had, already, sold other generators to other clients and these will become public as they install them. Because of this public sale, Rossi now have to pay 500.000 ? for the research contract with Bologna University and give them oe or more e-cat to play with. If it is a scam, it is a very stange scam. Anyway, time will tell and people will have the chance to ponder why they didn't trust or accepted the possibility Rossi really developed what he claim or others will be able to ponder why they trusted a so obvious, for others, scam. Mirco From spike66 at att.net Mon Oct 31 21:50:36 2011 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:50:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion In-Reply-To: <4EAEF22B.3000408@libero.it> References: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> <4EAEF22B.3000408@libero.it> Message-ID: <008801cc9817$1fa55360$5eeffa20$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato Subject: Re: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion Il 30/10/2011 17:14, spike ha scritto: > 1.html> >> Suppose you have some kind of magic black box that you claim makes excess heat. You say you can create a closed loop device, but that >> you haven't yet, for you are not a powerplant guy, rather a nuclear physicist, so in the meantime you have your 500kW generator here... >...Spike, I'm probably a techno-prole, but these?...Mirco Don't know how Mirco, but let me put it this way: if I am proven wrong and Rossi really did something like what he is claiming, everything I think I know about physics and chemistry will be wrong and it will mean the salvation of our fondest techno-dreams. I will be the happiest discredited guy in history. spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 22:06:04 2011 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:06:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion In-Reply-To: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> References: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net> Message-ID: 2011/10/30 spike : > > Some like it hot. For the time being, I remain one of them. -- Stefano Vaj